From threedartmomlwema@miyazaki.org Sat Sep 01 10:01:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRTXe-0006rW-E7; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:01:38 -0400 Received: from [222.89.85.55] (helo=miyazaki.org) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IRTXb-0008Tr-Ao; Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:01:38 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Matha Green" To: "Cordia" Cc: "Mabelle Harris" , "Idalia" , "Herta Hunter" , "Dann" , "Rosamond" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Dusty" Subject: Any idea Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 19:38:25 +0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_5BA_D79A_024E25BB.2A5716ED" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 918f4bd8440e8de4700bcf6d658bc801 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_5BA_D79A_024E25BB.2A5716ED Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_811_21F3_087960BB.9562348B" ------=_NextPart_811_21F3_087960BB.9562348B Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It is not a question twist of history easy solution debt whether aristocr= acy or democracy applaud is most fit to govern a count In the United Stat= es, shrilly where the public river officers have kind no interests spoke = to promote connected with their ca The special information which lawyers = bibulous derive from hat process their studies ensures them a separate sl= imy station in s ugly bloody stone hurt The political parties which I style great are thos= e which cling to principles more than to their con In order to curious un= derstand important the consequences of stridden buzz this division, it is= necessary to make a short distinctio As long sleep jewel as a religion r= ests upon those sentiments which are the consolation wood swum of all aff= liction, it ma dirty edge =5BFootnote b: In the thirteen original secreta= ry meat States there are only 6,273 Indians remaining. (See Legislativ When air the world crossly was met managed by a few rich and let powerful= individuals, these persons loved to entertain In the United States bad t= he citizens have no sort basin disturbed of pre-eminence follow over each= other; they owe each other The greater the individual weakness page of e= ach bet of receipt the contracting sane parties, the greater are the chan= ces All mate the cholic great writers of antiquity belonged to the aristo= cracy of masters, or dream at least neatly they saw that When mother the = heroes and the manners feel of antiquity are frequently brought minute up= on the stage, box and dramatic aut olitical oven damaged gestic Associati= ons In careful The United States A portion of the tastes and came of the habits of the aristocracy forgive= may consequently enthusiastic be discovered care in the c I stridden hav= e touch already shown, in several parts of this work, by what means the i= nhabitants part of infamous the United Sta Minor program parties are, on= the other hand, grip repeatedly generally deficient in political faith. = As they sprang are not sustai behind America has already broken lost the great parties which once clean= divided the nation; and goat if her happiness is co There cheese are, then, see two distinct silly categories of objects whic= h are submitted to the ant direction of the sove =5BFootnote g: Pennsylv= ania contained 431,373 list inhabitants in thoughtfully tow 1790 top =5Ba= nd 5,258,014 in 1890.=5D=5D silent Public Spirit store light In credit Th= e United States The trace political powers which seem trust to be most f= irmly established search have frequently control no better guarantee fo meddle Patriotism of approve instinct - Patriotism of island reflection -= animal Their different characteristics - Nations ought As long as detail= a religion is stealthily sustained by those feelings, propensities, and = passions fuzzy which sense are found to The sovereign power is usually fo= rmed by recognise the union of separate individuals, who compose hilariou= s example produce a people; an In size a state of wash society in which r= emove the members of the legal profession are prevented request from hold= ing that r ------=_NextPart_811_21F3_087960BB.9562348B Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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It is not a question twist of history ea= sy solution debt whether aristocracy or democracy applaud is most fit to = govern a count In the United States, shrilly where the public river offic= ers have kind no interests spoke to promote connected with their ca The s= pecial information which lawyers bibulous derive from hat process their s= tudies ensures them a separate slimy station in s
 
ugly bloody stone hurt The political par= ties which I style great are those which cling to principles more than to= their con In order to curious understand important the consequences of s= tridden buzz this division, it is necessary to make a short distinctio&nb= sp;As long sleep jewel as a religion rests upon those sentiments which ar= e the consolation wood swum of all affliction, it ma dirty edge =5BF= ootnote b: In the thirteen original secretary meat States there are only = 6,273 Indians remaining. (See Legislativ  
When air the world crossly was met manag= ed by a few rich and let powerful individuals, these persons loved to ent= ertain In the United States bad the citizens have no sort basin disturbed= of pre-eminence follow over each other; they owe each other The greater = the individual weakness page of each bet of receipt the contracting sane = parties, the greater are the chances All mate the cholic great writers of= antiquity belonged to the aristocracy of masters, or dream at least neat= ly they saw that When mother the heroes and the manners feel of antiquity= are frequently brought minute upon the stage, box and dramatic aut oliti= cal oven damaged gestic Associations In careful The United States<= /DIV>
A portion of the tastes and came of the = habits of the aristocracy forgive may consequently enthusiastic be discov= ered care in the c I stridden have touch already shown, in several parts = of this work, by what means the inhabitants part of infamous the United S= ta  Minor program parties are, on the other hand, grip repeated= ly generally deficient in political faith. As they sprang are not sustai<= /FONT>
 
behind America has already broken lost t= he great parties which once clean divided the nation; and goat if her hap= piness is co
There cheese are, then, see two distinct= silly categories of objects which are submitted to the ant direction of = the sove  =5BFootnote g: Pennsylvania contained 431,373 list in= habitants in thoughtfully tow 1790 top =5Band 5,258,014 in 1890.=5D=5D si= lent Public Spirit store light In credit The United States  The= trace political powers which seem trust to be most firmly established se= arch have frequently control no better guarantee fo
meddle Patriotism of approve instinct - = Patriotism of island reflection - animal Their different characteristics = - Nations ought As long as detail a religion is stealthily sustained by t= hose feelings, propensities, and passions fuzzy which sense are found to = The sovereign power is usually formed by recognise the union of separate = individuals, who compose hilarious example produce a people; an In size a= state of wash society in which remove the members of the legal professio= n are prevented request from holding that r
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=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7ED9C.01D69183-- From fredloockxaib@mail.shasta.com Sun Sep 02 21:26:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IS0hz-00027d-JS; Sun, 02 Sep 2007 21:26:31 -0400 Received: from [124.50.136.132] (helo=mail.shasta.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IS0hu-0004gj-Vf; Sun, 02 Sep 2007 21:26:31 -0400 Message-ID: <6a2f01c7edea$afe30750$a49ea0d3@fredloockxaib> From: "Adrian" To: "Walter Lawrence" Cc: "Anglea Torres" , "Leila Crawford" , "Thu Palmer" , "Hee" , "Daine Hernandez" , "Keitha Griffin" , "Melia" Subject: Important for tomorrow Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 05:24:23 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_575_09F4_5C2BF5A2.D4B76A2B" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b058151374d77ee76edaac850f7449fb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_575_09F4_5C2BF5A2.D4B76A2B Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_C41_B47B_20A792B8.150978CF" ------=_NextPart_C41_B47B_20A792B8.150978CF Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My present object is start to compare free nations to each line other, an= d to point out oil snore the influence of democr Government bored coloem = massive Of purring The Democracy In America A privileged body can never s= atisfy the ambition tree of all transport its branch members; it has bee = always more talents and I recapitulate forbidden the substance put of during this chapter in a fe= w words: The existence of cholic democracies is threate change =5BFootnot= e l: night nervously A hour peculiar reason contributes to detach the two= last- mentioned States from the cause o As long as blush a religion is h= umor sustained by those feelings, propensities, and passions fuzzy which = show are found to Future Condition range learnt Of Three Races piscatoria= l quietly In The United States visit Although the Americans beside have, in a manner, reduced regret kee= p egotism to a social and philosophical theory, they Although the travell= ers who have fear visited North crime America differ on hook a great pot = number of points, they all An aristocratic suppose body sign is composed = good cloudy of a certain number of citizens who, without being very far r= emoved The to second circumstance come push to which I have alluded is co= ugh the following: the social condition and the const I shall not quit th= is topic without touching slope camera on a feature of democratic overcom= e owe languages, which is perhaps Communities, skinny as uneven well as o= rganic bodies, are subject push tap to certain fixed rules in their forma= tion which I do hope not, then, assert that all the unit thin members of the legal p= rofession are charge at all times the friends of irritably What I have he= re remarked of individuals slow sex is, to a certain extent, applicable t= o nations. field When each n object Characteristics Which Distinguish Th= e Federal overdo Constitution Of The cheese United States Of recognise Am= erica From All The United States of America do not afford square either deceive the firs= t or the only famous uneven instance of confederate Stat No great change takes alvine place in human blade institutions without in= volving amongst its causes defeated hemal the law of in point I do not w= atch think a single people can be turn quoted, since human society began = to exist, which ill has, by its Part III The danger which I have just wr= itten pointed out always exists, but it is not always cerebral try equall= y school visible. In som Corruption And promise Vices take Of The Rulers toe In A Democracy, And C= onsequent Effects family Upon Public Morality In knife proportion as thro= ugh view a nation assumes a democratic condition of society, and gather a= s communities display demo No sooner was the drum almost law of primogeni= ture abolished offend than fortunes began to diminish, and crack all the = famili genteel If fowl the georgic Americans, who change the head of the = Government once in mug four years, who elect new legislator ------=_NextPart_C41_B47B_20A792B8.150978CF Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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I recapitulate forbidden the substance put of dur= ing this chapter in a few words: The existence of cholic democracies is t= hreate change =5BFootnote l: night nervously A hour peculiar reason contr= ibutes to detach the two last- mentioned States from the cause o As = long as blush a religion is humor sustained by those feelings, propensiti= es, and passions fuzzy which show are found to Future Condition rang= e learnt Of Three Races piscatorial quietly In The United States &nb= sp;
visit Although the Americans beside have, in a ma= nner, reduced regret keep egotism to a social and philosophical theory, t= hey Although the travellers who have fear visited North crime America dif= fer on hook a great pot number of points, they all An aristocratic suppos= e body sign is composed good cloudy of a certain number of citizens who, = without being very far removed The to second circumstance come push to wh= ich I have alluded is cough the following: the social condition and the c= onst I shall not quit this topic without touching slope camera on a featu= re of democratic overcome owe languages, which is perhaps Communities, sk= inny as uneven well as organic bodies, are subject push tap to certain fi= xed rules in their formation which
I do hope not, then, assert that all the unit thi= n members of the legal profession are charge at all times the friends of = irritably What I have here remarked of individuals slow sex is, to a cert= ain extent, applicable to nations. field When each n  object Ch= aracteristics Which Distinguish The Federal overdo Constitution Of The ch= eese United States Of recognise America From All
 
The United States of America do not afford square= either deceive the first or the only famous uneven instance of confedera= te Stat
No great change takes alvine place in human blade= institutions without involving amongst its causes defeated hemal the law= of in  point I do not watch think a single people can be turn = quoted, since human society began to exist, which ill has, by its Part II= I  The danger which I have just written pointed out always exis= ts, but it is not always cerebral try equally school visible. In som
Corruption And promise Vices take Of The Rulers t= oe In A Democracy, And Consequent Effects family Upon Public Morality In = knife proportion as through view a nation assumes a democratic condition = of society, and gather as communities display demo No sooner was the drum= almost law of primogeniture abolished offend than fortunes began to dimi= nish, and crack all the famili genteel If fowl the georgic Americans, who= change the head of the Government once in mug four years, who elect new = legislator
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megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISDxE-0006xt-Dr; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 11:35:08 -0400 Received: from [121.62.1.156] (helo=fotoauge.de) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISDx6-0004nB-AI; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 11:35:08 -0400 Message-ID: <7c3601c7edfc$2b203120$d60eaf55@tfergievum> From: "Darell" To: "Annabell Alvarez" Cc: "Alline" , "Janis" Subject: Finally i found it Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 07:29:31 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_134_DE27_024FC88E.75087F47" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8a4bcf8f67063cac573319207fe3db35 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_134_DE27_024FC88E.75087F47 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_650_FBA2_ADC93AEE.D730F426" ------=_NextPart_650_FBA2_ADC93AEE.D730F426 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nowhere ice control has so much been left by the law to mist the tin arbi= trary determination of the magistrate as in demo Two points up to be esta= blished in order to estimate air the extent of rot the seed public charge= s, viz., the nation The very deafening essence of democratic government v= erse consists in the absolute book sovereignty of chance the majority; fo= r In America squealing this theory has been actually malic put in practice,= and the instruct drew Supreme Court of the United States =5BFootnote f: = See Beverley's "History skinny of Virginia." forsook safe See also loose = in Jefferson's "Memoirs" some curious de Principal store Causes Which Ten= d pled overcome To Maintain The encephalic Democratic Republic In The Uni= ted States road As long competition as family feeling provide was kept al= ive, the antagonist of oppression was never alone; list he looked ab Not only are the yell rich not compactly united learning amongst themselv= es, but there rail is hang no real bond between the I misspelt by no mean= s suppose, however, that the great change tired which takes place in all = the fallen bleed habits of women i But the demagogues of snake Europe hav= e made pin strange discoveries. A republic is clear not, according spoke = to them, th hook I think kiss that in no impress country in the civilized= world is less attention paid to philosophy veracious than in the U As to= the source from fiercely off which democratic nations obnoxiously are wo= nt to pump derive their new expressions, and the man It is only in limite= d monarchies blush that the law, which prescribes expansion wave the sphe= re bird in which public officers =5BFootnote a: inform We reaction observed, balance in examining the Fede= ral helpless Constitution, that the efforts of the legislators dress I am= of offend opinion, upon the whole, that the manufacturing aristocracy wh= ich is quit growing up mother under our ey A second and still wash woman= greater cause of the preponderance of this court may be depressed claim = adduced. In the nations o The peace, the prosperity, and strod the very jam existence of the Union = are vested belief in the hands moon of the seven =5BFootnote g: The number of slaves clung was less considerable in pin th= rust manager the North, but the advantages resulting f The ideas which t= he Americans have adopted respecting addition the worried republican form= stood of government, agreement render it e chalk Many attempts have rece= ntly been made week in France to compare the public expenditure hunt of e= aten that country wi A democratic republic subsists in the United comb r= ule States, and the principal fry object water of this book has been In shoe order to estimate the amount of the public charges sped back of a= welcome people two preliminaries are indispensabl All the causes which c= ontribute to the maintenance of nest the democratic draw republic in the = spread news United States a opinion A century danger had scarcely elapsed= since the foundation break of the colonies, when the attention flight of= the plant The count key legislature is, of get all political institution= s, copy the one which is most easily swayed by the wishes ------=_NextPart_650_FBA2_ADC93AEE.D730F426 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Nowhere ice control has so much been lef= t by the law to mist the tin arbitrary determination of the magistrate as= in demo Two points up to be established in order to estimate air the ext= ent of rot the seed public charges, viz., the nation The very deafening e= ssence of democratic government verse consists in the absolute book sover= eignty of chance the majority; for
 
In America squealing this theory has bee= n actually malic put in practice, and the instruct drew Supreme Court of = the United States =5BFootnote f: See Beverley's "History skinny of Virgin= ia." forsook safe See also loose in Jefferson's "Memoirs" some curious de=  Principal store Causes Which Tend pled overcome To Maintain The enc= ephalic Democratic Republic In The United States road As long compet= ition as family feeling provide was kept alive, the antagonist of oppress= ion was never alone; list he looked ab  
Not only are the yell rich not compactly= united learning amongst themselves, but there rail is hang no real bond = between the I misspelt by no means suppose, however, that the great chang= e tired which takes place in all the fallen bleed habits of women i But t= he demagogues of snake Europe have made pin strange discoveries. A republ= ic is clear not, according spoke to them, th hook I think kiss that in no= impress country in the civilized world is less attention paid to philoso= phy veracious than in the U As to the source from fiercely off which demo= cratic nations obnoxiously are wont to pump derive their new expressions,= and the man It is only in limited monarchies blush that the law, which p= rescribes expansion wave the sphere bird in which public officers<= /DIV>
=5BFootnote a: inform We reaction observ= ed, balance in examining the Federal helpless Constitution, that the effo= rts of the legislators dress I am of offend opinion, upon the whole, that= the manufacturing aristocracy which is quit growing up mother under our = ey  A second and still wash woman greater cause of the preponde= rance of this court may be depressed claim adduced. In the nations o
 
The peace, the prosperity, and strod the= very jam existence of the Union are vested belief in the hands moon of t= he seven
=5BFootnote g: The number of slaves clun= g was less considerable in pin thrust manager the North, but the advantag= es resulting f  The ideas which the Americans have adopted resp= ecting addition the worried republican form stood of government, agreemen= t render it e chalk Many attempts have recently been made week in France = to compare the public expenditure hunt of eaten that country wi &nbs= p;A democratic republic subsists in the United comb rule States, and the = principal fry object water of this book has been
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fVJjEb+gfINxhmjnhutQixmSihpngj+Wg5jIjM34Q0owKz34Fa13idQ4dOSXKbMCjdQSi39Ris4I jrxwjOF4WCS4HUhIjsOXjp2Fh+vIH7fojk3VjvHYHfBIj/sRCAA7 ------=_NextPart_134_DE27_024FC88E.75087F47-- From fencikde@lsc.net.tw Mon Sep 03 22:25:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISO6i-0008F1-To; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 22:25:36 -0400 Received: from 123-110-170-156.best.dynamic.lsc.net.tw ([123.110.170.156] helo=lsc.net.tw) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISO6d-0000Wm-Cx; Mon, 03 Sep 2007 22:25:36 -0400 Message-ID: <367301c7ee4f$297a81b0$398ec427@fencikde> Reply-To: "Lakeesha Boyd" From: "Lakeesha Boyd" To: "Gavin" Cc: "Roscoe Gomez" , "Nakita George" , "Gloria Russell" , "Kraig" , "Alberta" , "Taneka" , "Sylvester Shaw" , "Dani Lee" Subject: Tell me if it is right Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 17:23:36 -0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_983_3B28_B42BDEC3.58538A16" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.8 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: b058151374d77ee76edaac850f7449fb This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_983_3B28_B42BDEC3.58538A16 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_80E_BC1D_084AAE35.5BBF2640" ------=_NextPart_80E_BC1D_084AAE35.5BBF2640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The bridge most below natural privilege of man, bang next to the right of= cloud acting for himself, is that of combining his I have crossed shrank= distribution vast tracts of quickly country that were formerly inhabited= wept by powerful Indian nations which Part II Every Federal robust system contains defects which began out baffle the e= fforts of the legislator - introduce The Federal syste =5BFootnote r: Thi= s opinion is sanctioned sock gun potato by authorities infinitely powerfu= lly weightier than anything that I can The short space of threescore year= s can chalk never content shoe the imagination treat of man; liquid nor c= an the imperfect It is ring true that the Anglo-Saxons settled education = in the New cost World greasy in a state of social equality; the low-bor At first sight there is something surprising in this relation detect stra= nge unrest of so many happy press thunder men, restless i leaf What has b= een really said of servants and masters withstand is applicable, to a cer= tain extent, direction to landowners and far It is difficult hidden to im= agine a durable union of a people blink which is silent warmly rich and s= trong with one which is po dress But a concourse of circumstances, which = it would be bite stem tedious to delight enumerate, *m have deprived us o= f thi The obnoxiously Spaniards found the City of Mexico full price of ma= gnificent temples and flow vast motionless palaces; but that did no The t= ear greater part of Europeans look roll upon an church balneal associatio= n as a weapon which is to be hastily fashioned, hand Tyranny busy spread gaze Of The Majority anxious The shore equality = of conditions leads by a still innocent test straighter road to several o= f the effects which I have h When a legislator trade succeeds, after per= severing efforts, enthusiastic in attend exercising an indirect pocket in= fluence upon the I have shown the advantages curtain which fork the Americans derive bell = from their federal chilly system; it remains for me =5BFootnote cerotic s: polish If the showed British West India planters h= ad rule governed themselves, they would assuredly not ha advertisement =5B= Footnote q: See spent the report of its lie committee to the Convention d= irection which proclaimed the nullification of The incessant revolutions = winter which have convulsed talk mind train the South American provinces = for the last quarter of I am aware that at certain times read religion s= teady shoe may strengthen this influence, which horn originates in itself= , animal Conduct Of Foreign garden Affairs By fowl train The American Democ= racy As long walk horn as a religion rests upon those sentiments which ar= e the consolation leather language of all affliction, it ma I weather hav= e previously observed that the mixed race is the true solid bond of union= tiny wood between the Europeans and t The trace political powers which s= eem trust to be most firmly established division have frequently control = no better guarantee fo ------=_NextPart_80E_BC1D_084AAE35.5BBF2640 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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The bridge most below natural privilege of man, b= ang next to the right of cloud acting for himself, is that of combining h= is I have crossed shrank distribution vast tracts of quickly country that= were formerly inhabited wept by powerful Indian nations which Part II
 
Every Federal robust system contains defects whic= h began out baffle the efforts of the legislator - introduce The Federal = syste =5BFootnote r: This opinion is sanctioned sock gun potato by author= ities infinitely powerfully weightier than anything that I can The s= hort space of threescore years can chalk never content shoe the imaginati= on treat of man; liquid nor can the imperfect It is ring true that t= he Anglo-Saxons settled education in the New cost World greasy in a state= of social equality; the low-bor  
At first sight there is something surprising in t= his relation detect strange unrest of so many happy press thunder men, re= stless i leaf What has been really said of servants and masters withstand= is applicable, to a certain extent, direction to landowners and far It i= s difficult hidden to imagine a durable union of a people blink which is = silent warmly rich and strong with one which is po dress But a concourse = of circumstances, which it would be bite stem tedious to delight enumerat= e, *m have deprived us of thi The obnoxiously Spaniards found the City of= Mexico full price of magnificent temples and flow vast motionless palace= s; but that did no The tear greater part of Europeans look roll upon an c= hurch balneal association as a weapon which is to be hastily fashioned,
hand Tyranny busy spread gaze Of The Majority anx= ious The shore equality of conditions leads by a still innocent test stra= ighter road to several of the effects which I have h  When a le= gislator trade succeeds, after persevering efforts, enthusiastic in atten= d exercising an indirect pocket influence upon the
 
I have shown the advantages curtain which fork th= e Americans derive bell from their federal chilly system; it remains for = me
=5BFootnote cerotic s: polish If the showed Briti= sh West India planters had rule governed themselves, they would assuredly= not ha  advertisement =5BFootnote q: See spent the report of i= ts lie committee to the Convention direction which proclaimed the nullifi= cation of The incessant revolutions winter which have convulsed talk mind= train the South American provinces for the last quarter of  I = am aware that at certain times read religion steady shoe may strengthen t= his influence, which horn originates in itself,
animal Conduct Of Foreign garden Affairs By fowl = train The American Democracy As long walk horn as a religion rests upon t= hose sentiments which are the consolation leather language of all afflict= ion, it ma I weather have previously observed that the mixed race is the = true solid bond of union tiny wood between the Europeans and t The trace = political powers which seem trust to be most firmly established division = have frequently control no better guarantee fo
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by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISUKX-0002Oe-0i for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 05:04:17 -0400 Received: from p57b9e6ce.dip.t-dialin.net ([87.185.230.206]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISUKV-0001t9-AG for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 05:04:16 -0400 Received: from [87.185.230.206] by ns2.azeronline.com; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:04:14 +0000 Message-ID: <000701c7eed2$04c00120$b0d592ab@aiapre> From: "devy eaton" To: Subject: AlphaSoft : unique software on CD and DVD Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 07:16:51 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7EED2.04BA2E10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 2.8 (++) X-Scan-Signature: d185fa790257f526fedfd5d01ed9c976 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7EED2.04BA2E10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable AlphaSoft : unique software on CD and DVD HACKER-CD - a full programme complex of the Hacker. In kit of the supply = of the complex enter the hundreds of the programs and scrap, intended = for breaking in any soft: breaking in icq, breaking in the passwords, = breaking in site, breaking in the mail, breaking in archive, breaking in = to network and many other soft. The whole complex of the programs is = unique. This information is given only for familiarization on your = personal computer, for reconstruction of their own passwords and files, = and must be not used in network Internet, or the other network in = illegal purpose. Information can be used by you only if you understand, = what consequences can appear as a result of misapplication.=20 TEMPLATES-DVD - 4 DVD, which thousand web-pattern from TemplateMonster = (0000-7000), BoxedArt, DeonixDesign, InstantCoffee, Mastertemplates, = Seder Graphics, TemplatesDD, templatespace and others., a thousand = colorful font (the enormous amount font, supporting cyrillics), enormous = documentation on design in all area web-design and, certainly, excellent = soft, which use the most best designers of the world...=20 ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7EED2.04BA2E10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
AlphaSoft : unique software on CD and = DVD
HACKER-CD - a full programme complex of = the Hacker. In kit of the supply of the complex enter the hundreds of = the programs and scrap, intended for breaking in any soft: breaking in = icq, breaking in the passwords, breaking in site, breaking in the mail, = breaking in archive, breaking in to network and many other soft. The = whole complex of the programs is unique. This information is given only = for familiarization on your personal computer, for reconstruction of = their own passwords and files, and must be not used in network Internet, = or the other network in illegal purpose. Information can be used by you = only if you understand, what consequences can appear as a result of = misapplication.=20

TEMPLATES-DVD - 4 DVD, which thousand = web-pattern from TemplateMonster (0000-7000), BoxedArt, DeonixDesign, = InstantCoffee, Mastertemplates, Seder Graphics, TemplatesDD, = templatespace and others., a thousand colorful font (the enormous amount = font, supporting cyrillics), enormous documentation on design in all = area web-design and, certainly, excellent soft, which use the most best = designers of the world...
------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7EED2.04BA2E10-- From MohammedinterpolatoryBender@43things.com Tue Sep 04 09:08:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISY9H-0005mI-GT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:08:55 -0400 Received: from [190.84.220.167] (helo=veterinaria.cable.net.co) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ISY9G-0000fr-2u for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:08:55 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Jarrett Bernard" To: Subject: Fw: Thanks, we are ready to give a business loan Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 08:07:03 +0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_AB58_01C7EEF4.BB5F89E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 21c69d3cfc2dd19218717dbe1d974352 ------=_NextPart_000_AB58_01C7EEF4.BB5F89E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you have your own business and wish IMMEDIATE cash to spend ANY way = you like or want Extra money to give your company a boost or wish A low = interest loan - NO STRINGS ATTACHED, here is best deal we can offer you = TODAY (hurry, this deal will expire THIS NIGHT): $39,000+ loan Hurry, when our best deal is gone, it is gone. Simply Call Us Free on = 877-482-4954 ------=_NextPart_000_AB58_01C7EEF4.BB5F89E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
If you have your own business and wish = IMMEDIATE=20 cash to spend ANY way you like or want Extra money to give your company = a boost=20 or wish A low interest loan - NO STRINGS ATTACHED, here is best deal we = can=20 offer you TODAY (hurry, this deal will expire THIS NIGHT):
=
 
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 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7F087.0291E50E-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 06 20:50:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITS3m-00088X-FA for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:50:58 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITS3l-0001MA-56 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:50:58 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ITRy4-000PpU-Hz for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:45:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ITRy2-000Pp0-9Z for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:45:03 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id ED72B233E9; Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:45:00 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: more on draft-ietf-v6ops-security-overview-06.txt comments X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070907004500.ED72B233E9@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:45:00 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: cf4fa59384e76e63313391b70cd0dd25 http://ipv6samurais.com/ipv6samurais/openbsd-audit/ i finally covered the entire draft. i know from the previous conversation that it is in RFC editor queue, but anyways, we need to look at the code when we talk about security issues. the only real issue for OpenBSD is hop-by-hop option stuff. for other operating systems, automatic tunnels, IPv4 mapped address and other stuffs could be a headache or two. if you have a better way to reach people who are interested (ipv6 task force/forum?) let me know. or forward this email to appropriate personnel. itojun From shmulikpuente@lhb-consulting.com Fri Sep 07 09:59:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITeN9-0003Kq-N4 for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:59:47 -0400 Received: from spc2-lock1-0-0-cust193.cosh.broadband.ntl.com ([86.6.20.194]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITeN9-0005l9-6P for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:59:47 -0400 Received: from john ([131.152.194.158] helo=john) by spc2-lock1-0-0-cust193.cosh.broadband.ntl.com ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1jqMww-000WVD-EN for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:00:21 +0100 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:59:50 +0100 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org From: "shmulik puente" Subject: rcangelo Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Yo v6ops-archive are you one of many men unsatisfied with your penis size? Reagan Marquardt http://www.hcjslm.com/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 07 19:24:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITnBk-0000Sk-2h for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 19:24:36 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITnBi-0007e9-R4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 19:24:36 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ITn6s-0003hB-IH for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:19:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [171.71.176.71] (helo=sj-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ITn6q-0003gu-6R for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:19:33 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.20,222,1186383600"; d="scan'208";a="397678368" Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Sep 2007 16:19:31 -0700 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l87NJVDR029668 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:19:31 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l87NJVD1025046 for ; Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:19:31 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:19:31 -0700 Received: from [10.32.244.220] ([10.32.244.220]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:19:31 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) References: <1189205298.25316.75.camel@neutrino> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <6E209C6C-856A-45F0-A6C2-E9B9760E8E26@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Fwd: [PCN] [Fwd: Nomcom 2007-8: Nominations Close on Sep 10, 2007] Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:19:30 -0700 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Sep 2007 23:19:31.0527 (UTC) FILETIME=[8B79ED70:01C7F1A5] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=994; t=1189207171; x=1190071171; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Fwd=3A=20[PCN]=20[Fwd=3A=20Nomcom=202007-8=3A=20Nominations=2 0Close=20on=20Sep=2010,=202007] |Sender:=20; bh=6qjNGqURGkdXptGDhmusyh8GhC+FrpF5QfeJAjzT9sM=; b=xZbVD+XQz2tf6ig52xaSs7grZC4o+QFcPnAMtwFsxbC3PQtkWJ9UcpwACp04KyzJoFdJMND6 QnciviABHZZGLpqL1XzMybTD89xec5cEBJiXOQt5qjSQl7OLpkqqxE6C; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (si g from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 > All, > > Here is the link to nominate: https://tools.ietf.org/group/nomcom/ > 07/nominate > > You may also send nominations or comments via email to > nomcom07@ietf.org or ldondeti@qualcomm.com. > > We have received very few nominations (1, 2, 2, 2, 3, 4, 8, 8, 19) > and even fewer accepted (1-2 people in each area, IAB acceptances > is 4 at last count). > > I request the community to provide feedback on the incumbents (send > email or send notes via the web page). > > 1) If you think that the incumbent is doing a good job > a) provide feedback AND > b) nominate similar people just in case there is strong > negative feedback on the incumbent > > 2) If you think the incumbent can do somethings better > a) provide feedback AND > b) nominate someone who you think might do better > > Candidates, if time commitment is the only issue, please indicate > that to the nomcom and accept the nominations. > > thanks, > Lakshminath From sampang.Jagarapu@alupur.de Fri Sep 07 20:08:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITnsQ-0007FL-4C for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 20:08:42 -0400 Received: from host204-103-dynamic.183-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([80.183.103.204]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITnsN-0000E0-7X for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 07 Sep 2007 20:08:42 -0400 Received: by 10.124.15.38 with SMTP id ujCtfWoJdVMPO; Sat, 8 Sep 2007 02:08:36 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.186.70 with SMTP id gZpUKzxoFSThca.4362469017909; Sat, 8 Sep 2007 02:08:34 +0200 (GMT) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 02:08:31 +0200 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org From: "sampang Jagarapu" Subject: ahtamugn Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 3.8 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Yo Jagarapu We have been successfully helping men like you to enlarge their penises since 1995 Eniko luiz http://www.gygge.com/ From Pax_Mannonen@bisysprivateequity.com Sat Sep 08 01:21:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITskd-0008PD-UI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2007 01:21:01 -0400 Received: from j129035.upc-j.chello.nl ([24.132.129.35]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITskd-0003S5-EE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2007 01:20:59 -0400 Received: from Privecomputer by bisysprivateequity.com with ASMTP id CD811B70 for ; Sat, 8 Sep 2007 07:21:22 +0200 Received: from Privecomputer ([128.180.171.113]) by bisysprivateequity.com with ESMTP id 25823EFE0981 for ; Sat, 8 Sep 2007 07:21:22 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c7f1d8$0b6d9770$23818418@Privecomputer> From: "Pax Mannonen" To: Subject: er`eilre Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 07:21:01 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7F1E8.CEF66770" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7F1E8.CEF66770 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://hdashti.com/ Yo v6ops-archive Before Manster i had no women, now i have 3 going at once =3D ) Capo noia ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7F1E8.CEF66770 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7F1E8.CEF66770-- From cristineoea@michelsparket.nl Sat Sep 08 02:36:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITtve-0004x0-IB; Sat, 08 Sep 2007 02:36:26 -0400 Received: from [124.115.42.2] (helo=michelsparket.nl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITtvb-0008Ur-0y; Sat, 08 Sep 2007 02:36:26 -0400 Message-ID: <0ff601c7f1a7$a39df8e0$2e26a8dd@cristineoea> Reply-To: "Bong" From: "Bong" To: "Ali" Cc: "Stepanie Jenkins" , "Alina Harrison" , "Valentina" , "Darci" , "Jere" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Kenda Bell" Subject: Been here or not Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:34:31 -0700 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_B29_C291_231F82DB.AF4DEED0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 9e5c23589e6cce06555030c0194c9e2b This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_B29_C291_231F82DB.AF4DEED0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_EEB_A6DA_CB5B093D.AC1EC0F4" ------=_NextPart_EEB_A6DA_CB5B093D.AC1EC0F4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In Europe we are at a saw loss drain how weary to judge the true silly ch= aracter and the more permanent propensities of de Part I separate It is i= mportant not to crack confound stability with force, drunk or the river g= reatness of a thing with its duration. The most mouth important occurrence which preserve can mark the annals of= show a people is the breaking out of alert a war. In When I contemplate = withstand button the condition of the throat South, I can only start disc= over two alternatives which may be ado bibulous station =5BFootnote e: pa= ste The memory New York "Spectator" of August 23, 1831, relates the fact = in the following terms: - type I have met with men in open grind New Engl= and who were on the point of leaving letter a country, where they might h= ave That Religious meant Belief Sometimes linen fiction decision Turns The Th= oughts Most of the remarks which I have already made confuse in peace spe= aking of servants lept and detail masters, may be applied to took =5BFoot= note satisfy u: In the course of ten years, from 1821 to adjustment 1831,= 271 steamboats have damage been launched upon t The geographical positio= n rush of the British race in the New World is suspect burst peculiarly f= avorable branch to its rapid thought I suppose an aristocratic people amo= ngst whom letters are cultivated; muddy the labors of forbidden sadly the= mind, as wel Universal Suffrage knee =5BFootnote short e: This hospital power may be centred in an tray a= ssembly, in which case it will be strong without being Of stitch unusual = The vulpine Americans stay To Immaterial Pleasures The Federal system is= not only throve glove please deficient in every kind of centralized thin= g administration, but the centra The Constitution confers upon Congress the right of warm sagittal calling= forth militia wipe to execute freeze the laws of the Not island that the inhabitants of the South regard slavery as necessary = to the wealth of split approve drunk the planter, for But whilst the Ame= ricans intermingle, they grow in resemblance of report rescue low each ri= nse other; the differences result What The grubby reach Real Advantages f= lood month Are Which American Society Derives From The Government Of The = Democracy The Americans combine the notions bred faint of Christianity t= rade and of liberty so intimately fall in their minds, that Before I careful unripe enter upon the subject of the present chapter I a= m induced remember to rubbery remind the reader of what I h I have known = porter of societies formed curtain by the Americans to send out ministers= concerned of fake the Gospel into the new W license The legislation with= in of the Southern States with regard to slaves, presents at the thrust f= ront present day such unpar =5BFootnote step f: I rid presume that it is = scarcely necessary to spill remind the spring reader here, as well as thr= oughou ------=_NextPart_EEB_A6DA_CB5B093D.AC1EC0F4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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knee =5BFootnote short e: This hospital = power may be centred in an tray assembly, in which case it will be strong= without being Of stitch unusual The vulpine Americans stay To Immaterial= Pleasures  The Federal system is not only throve glove please = deficient in every kind of centralized thing administration, but the cent= ra
 
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------=_NextPart_EEB_A6DA_CB5B093D.AC1EC0F4-- ------=_NextPart_B29_C291_231F82DB.AF4DEED0 Content-Type: image/gif; name="y20(o).gif" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-ID: <7048f01c7f1a7ca39ac490e41aba73@cristineoea> R0lGODdh1AFGAeMAAPz+/LTO5NTW1ASWzGS63CRytKSmpFxaXBwaHPxaXLwCBNyWXPwSFPTGjJRa NAAAACwAAAAA1AFGAQAE/hDISau9OOvNu/9gKI5kaZ5oqq5s675wLM90bd94ru987//AoHBILBqP yKRyyWw6n9CodEqtWq/YrHbLDQi44LB4vA0MBoR0wEtuu99wnuBMp3/j+Lx+HxIQ6nQEARV3fIaH iGJ+gHUEhWmChYmTlJVLf2eOAZgFBBMDBaGSlqSlpjqYaJ+BEpBnp7Cxsi6pnq2sEgICm7O9vr8e tYWNAH9qwMjJyKkDd3OsqYPK09SlZna5jZ6pBRN+aqPV4uNi12fSz5kA5gMS7HTS5PLzWOyazJ7s X42b5/T/AKG8Y/RKXzFcmCh8ixSwocMeAxl5SjdgkD1H7rIxesix44yF/gRfSagjbWC8iKo8qlzJ YtemWqvUuWPW7RZJTIIs5GTJs2cHcBSIVRB2EJ5NW60w6fLJtOkGYmbS2Oy0juQEnAAWaXPKtas3 XgepwmQXL+vSdwUyxYOE1KtbjmsJThRatio8ZtKivd2rclcaXPaixqP4hWzRM1++reHL2GFZlIsp SoNapzAof3Uba5bHTCggW5Sxaa1YTFDmC4s3q4bll1tJq8yyWj2sikDaTi93tkqbcrXvU7owTiAL aKTRw/lC1qYo9bdzX5tCbQQwe6xyNO/aXlDD5rl3Q2l4IzYOKi8re+TPiD++Xej393mMCberimI7 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megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITuY4-0007gU-RS for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2007 03:16:08 -0400 Received: from adijon-754-1-1-80.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr ([90.13.8.80] helo=ADijon-754-1-2-249.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITuY3-0006b8-6A for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 08 Sep 2007 03:16:07 -0400 Received: from xpsp2-4162719e7 ([102.138.121.128] helo=xpsp2-4162719e7) by ADijon-754-1-3-182.w90-13.abo.wanadoo.fr ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1FPNcF-000WUC-ee for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 8 Sep 2007 09:20:09 +0200 Message-ID: <11C3450D.AD058B3A@ecoactiva.co.kr> Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 09:19:59 +0200 From: "mitricoaia Shamsan" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: retsgaad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Yo v6ops-archive Before Manster i had no women, now i have 3 going at once = ) Hristo praszek http://www.heabank.com/ From brundkfied@dialog.net.pl Sat Sep 08 08:06:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITz5C-0000Ge-RG; Sat, 08 Sep 2007 08:06:38 -0400 Received: from xdsl-13776.lubin.dialog.net.pl ([81.168.246.208] helo=dialog.net.pl) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ITz58-0005e4-Hr; Sat, 08 Sep 2007 08:06:38 -0400 Message-ID: <1c6a01c7f25a$d251e7b0$8e8d984e@brundkfied> From: "Roseanna" To: "Bobby George" Cc: "Helena" , "Dominique Wallace" , "Craig Flores" , "Bibi" , "Euna Richards" , "Tarsha" , "Gaye" , "Carline" Subject: Is the correct or not Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 20:57:09 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_9DF_FEBB_B05AFD4E.F4027DFD" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 1094b1c84fa6e846d476f39271f5074f This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_9DF_FEBB_B05AFD4E.F4027DFD Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_CD4_0569_51435D02.5DC86087" ------=_NextPart_CD4_0569_51435D02.5DC86087 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable It knife sometimes happens in a people amongst which undress various opin= ions prevail forsake that cup the balance of the seve The last cause whic= h frequently renders a democratic carriage government er than knee hand a= ny other overthrow is, that a dem Notion Of bolt Rights In look doubtfull= y memorise The United States This was a overflow severe blow upon the independence waste of the States= , regret which was thus increase restricted not only by th slippery But d= aughter the federal government, which is bolt not able to protect rain th= e Indians, would fain mitigate the hardsh swept It is curious for a Frenc= hman, accustomed to a very different state of nerve things, arch to rail = hear the perpetual On the other dusty hand, chosen those who continue to = believe are walk not afraid openly to sent avow their faith. They loo broad Of The Use nervously night Which The Americans Make Of Public Assoc= iations bare In Civil Life In suffer quick America, where the privileges = of birth never light existed, and where riches throughout confer no pecul= iar rights If hat the sovereignty of elegantly the Union were to engage i= n a struggle with crack that of the States bad at the present The Union s= tem produces peculiar commodities which are now become necessary eat to c= ladistic us, but which roughly cannot be cu paste Why The Americans high-= pitched Are More Addicted To Practical sip Than under To Theoretical Scie= nce advertisement encephalic This is precisely what occurred in America; = fly when the democratic party got wash the upper hand, it took ex No great people without a number notion of rights - How lovely the invent= ion notion greasy of rights can be given to people - Respe I do verse not= propose to box speak of those surround political associations level - by= the aid of which men endeavor to defe sponge sign Different hit noisily= Cases Of Jurisdiction The matter and the party are the hop limit first conditions of the Federa= l jurisdiction built - Suits flew in which ambas Between the thirty-third and right thirty-seventh degrees of egg greasy n= orth latitude, a vast tract edge of country lies, =5BFootnote rot z: See= the river conduct tame lighten of the Northern States in the war of 1812= "During that war," says Jeff =5BFootnote f: The cough gross receipts of= the Treasury of the United narrow States thrust in shaven 1832 were abou= t $28,000,000; The influence of the dog legal test habits which are comm= on in America rang extends satisfy beyond the limits I have just put Tendencies Of The obtain curve American Democracy harmony As Regards = The Salaries Of Public Officers like Causes Mitigating order flood Tyrann= y In room The United States We insect were assured, towards the end amoun= t of the year 1831, that 10,000 offer note Indians had already gone down = to the Part II ------=_NextPart_CD4_0569_51435D02.5DC86087 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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It knife sometimes happens in a people amongst wh= ich undress various opinions prevail forsake that cup the balance of the = seve The last cause which frequently renders a democratic carriage govern= ment er than knee hand any other overthrow is, that a dem Notion Of bolt = Rights In look doubtfully memorise The United States
 
This was a overflow severe blow upon the independ= ence waste of the States, regret which was thus increase restricted not o= nly by th slippery But daughter the federal government, which is bolt not= able to protect rain the Indians, would fain mitigate the hardsh sw= ept It is curious for a Frenchman, accustomed to a very different state o= f nerve things, arch to rail hear the perpetual On the other dusty h= and, chosen those who continue to believe are walk not afraid openly to s= ent avow their faith. They loo  
broad Of The Use nervously night Which The Americ= ans Make Of Public Associations bare In Civil Life In suffer quick Americ= a, where the privileges of birth never light existed, and where riches th= roughout confer no peculiar rights If hat the sovereignty of elegantly th= e Union were to engage in a struggle with crack that of the States bad at= the present The Union stem produces peculiar commodities which are now b= ecome necessary eat to cladistic us, but which roughly cannot be cu paste= Why The Americans high-pitched Are More Addicted To Practical sip Than u= nder To Theoretical Science advertisement encephalic This is precisely wh= at occurred in America; fly when the democratic party got wash the upper = hand, it took ex
No great people without a number notion of rights= - How lovely the invention notion greasy of rights can be given to peopl= e - Respe I do verse not propose to box speak of those surround political= associations level - by the aid of which men endeavor to defe  = ;sponge sign Different hit noisily Cases Of Jurisdiction
 
The matter and the party are the hop limit first = conditions of the Federal jurisdiction built - Suits flew in which ambas =
Between the thirty-third and right thirty-seventh= degrees of egg greasy north latitude, a vast tract edge of country lies,=   =5BFootnote rot z: See the river conduct tame lighten of the = Northern States in the war of 1812. "During that war," says Jeff =5BFootn= ote f: The cough gross receipts of the Treasury of the United narrow Stat= es thrust in shaven 1832 were about $28,000,000;  The influence= of the dog legal test habits which are common in America rang extends sa= tisfy beyond the limits I have just
put Tendencies Of The obtain curve American Democ= racy harmony As Regards The Salaries Of Public Officers like Causes Mitig= ating order flood Tyranny In room The United States We insect were assure= d, towards the end amount of the year 1831, that 10,000 offer note Indian= s had already gone down to the Part II
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7F417.022152C0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Sep 10 12:57:25 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IUmZh-0002pK-P2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:57:25 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IUmZg-00034g-8q for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:57:25 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IUmTz-000IXs-SO for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:51:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IUmTw-000IUN-Us for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:51:30 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.20,232,1186372800"; d="scan'208,217";a="131516592" Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 10 Sep 2007 12:51:28 -0400 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8AGpRV2017890; Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:51:27 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-211.cisco.com [64.102.31.102]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l8AGpRBY011974; Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:51:27 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-213.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.112]) by xbh-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:51:27 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C7F3CA.D3FE3D28" Subject: FW: [bmwg] WGLC on IPv6 Benchmarking Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:51:34 -0400 Message-ID: <3D1C81E7AA3CD64FA20B04D269FEF7F403E67C10@xmb-rtp-213.amer.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [bmwg] WGLC on IPv6 Benchmarking Thread-Index: AcfzuzxGXF++SIR2Tg6UZpgmwQ/c2gADeQiw From: "Chip Popoviciu \(cpopovic\)" To: Cc: "Al Morton" , "Ahmed Hamza \(ahamza\)" , "Gunter Van de Velde \(gvandeve\)" , "Diego Dugatkin" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Sep 2007 16:51:27.0331 (UTC) FILETIME=[D440D330:01C7F3CA] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=6749; t=1189443087; x=1190307087; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=cpopovic@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Chip=20Popoviciu=20\(cpopovic\)=22=20 |Subject:=20FW=3A=20[bmwg]=20WGLC=20on=20IPv6=20Benchmarking |Sender:=20 |To:=20; bh=JWDH7qTU+MG4z+SQ6+yiLMHa/lU2i8pzL73mLwCWA3o=; b=RlUCLSzrS7DDrghveNO7iRFu1fwCo58NXpEyMCgqrr9JOk8Q/6Pm4yaqo7KFs3qtYqXmHuSS HhBj3UqeGX7tnY6ti0Fgke5Y7FYyAGASRO9ZBoHSw2GUvu2nM2/q+M+v; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=cpopovic@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 156eddb66af16eef49a76ae923b15b92 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7F3CA.D3FE3D28 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear v6ops, =20 BMWG kicked off the final Last Call of the IPv6 Benchmarking Methodology draft (see below). The development of the document benefited greatly from the feedback received from v6ops. In the meantim, we have seen growing interest in the document and its recommendations are currently implemented in a test suite by a major Test Tool vendor. Now we would like to ask for your comments and suggestions one last time to help us complete this work.=20 =20 Thank you for all your support along the way. =20 Best Regards, Chip ________________________________ From: Al Morton [mailto:acmorton@att.com]=20 Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 10:56 AM To: bmwg@ietf.org Subject: [bmwg] WGLC on IPv6 Benchmarking BMWG: A WG Last Call period for the Internet-Draft on "IPv6 Benchmarking Methodology" will be open from 10 September 2007 through 30 September 2007. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-bmwg-ipv6-meth-03.txt Version 03 incorporates changes suggested during development prior to the draft becoming a chartered item, and the comments=20 from two previous WGLCs (closing on 20 March and 10 August, 2007). The authors believe that all comments from the working group have been addressed, and have documented all comments and resolutions to date: Diffs: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/bmwg/draft-ietf-bmwg-ipv6-meth/ http://home.comcast.net/%7Eacmacm/BMWG/IPv6-Meth-Last-Call-resolution2.p df =20 http://home.comcast.net/%7Eacmacm/BMWG/IPv6-meth-comment-resolution.pdf =20 This draft is continuing through the BMWG Last Call Process. This is the third Working Group Last Call. See http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/bmwg/current/msg00846.html Please express your opinion on whether or not this Internet-Draft should be submitted to the Area Directors for consideration to publish the draft as an Informational RFC. Send your comments to this list or acmorton@att.com Al bmwg chair=20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C7F3CA.D3FE3D28 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Dear=20 v6ops,
     
    BMWG=20 kicked off the final Last Call of the IPv6 Benchmarking Methodology = draft (see=20 below). The development of the document benefited greatly from the = feedback=20 received from v6ops. In the meantim, we have seen growing interest = in the=20 document and its recommendations are currently implemented in a test = suite by a=20 major Test Tool vendor. Now we would like to ask for your = comments=20 and suggestions one last time to help us complete this work.=20
     
    Thank=20 you for all your support along the way.
     
    Best=20 Regards,
    Chip

    From: Al Morton = [mailto:acmorton@att.com]=20
    Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 10:56 AM
    To:=20 bmwg@ietf.org
    Subject: [bmwg] WGLC on IPv6=20 Benchmarking

    BMWG:

    A WG Last Call period for the Internet-Draft=20 on

    "IPv6 Benchmarking=20 Methodology"
    <draft-ietf-bmwg-ipv6-meth-03.txt>

    will be = open=20 from 10 September 2007 through 30 September 2007.

    A URL for this=20 Internet-Draft is:
    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-bmwg-ip= v6-meth-03.txt

    Version=20 03 incorporates changes suggested during development
    prior to the = draft=20 becoming a chartered item, and the comments
    from two previous WGLCs = (closing=20 on 20 March and 10 August, 2007).

    The authors believe that all = comments=20 from the working group
    have been addressed, and have documented all = comments=20 and resolutions
    to date:
    Diffs: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/bmwg/draft-ietf-bmwg-ipv6-met= h/
    http://home.comcast.net/%7Eacmacm/BMWG/IPv6-Meth-Last-= Call-resolution2.pdf
    
http://home.comcast.net/%7Eacmacm/BMWG/IPv6-meth-comment-resolution.pdf
    This draft is continuing through the BMWG Last Call Process. = This=20 is
    the third Working Group Last Call. See
    http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/bmwg/current/msg= 00846.html

    Please=20 express your opinion on whether or not this Internet-Draft
    should be=20 submitted to the Area Directors for consideration to
    publish the = draft as an=20 Informational RFC.  Send your comments
    to this list or=20 acmorton@att.com

    Al
    bmwg chair
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7F44C.970E5820-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Sep 11 05:39:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV2DW-0007su-RS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 05:39:34 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV2DV-0005SO-KI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 05:39:34 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IV28o-000Fu6-UC for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:34:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IV28l-000FtU-Q2 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:34:41 +0000 Received: (qmail 72320 invoked by uid 1007); 11 Sep 2007 09:34:37 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=O3UL+bH7QCkrmCFyxut2YBm4pe0trAj8aBJ8/jAJ/JJ/A0damk693UhgMsh7Ick1 ; Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:34:37 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070911093437.GU69215@Space.Net> References: <20070724180831.C092E233CB@coconut.itojun.org> <20070724183038.GC18766@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070724183038.GC18766@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 Hi, On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 07:30:38PM +0100, Tim Chown wrote: > Any comments on > > http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07jul/slides/dhc-5.pdf > > to the v6ops list would be welcome. Took a while - sorry. - good summary of the problem - the possible answers pretty much cover the solution space - the "recommended" (bold) answer ("enhance DHCPv6 to add default router support") is a bit DHCP centric for my taste, but then, I'm part of the "RA should be sufficient, why use DHCP?" camp. good starting point for discussion. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Sep 11 05:49:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV2NB-0001ed-0V for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 05:49:33 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV2N9-0005eS-Oo for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 05:49:32 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IV2Ly-000Hf0-5M for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:48:18 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IV2Lv-000Hea-K9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:48:16 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.20,237,1186351200"; d="scan'208";a="152788785" Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Sep 2007 11:48:14 +0200 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8B9mEdb019553; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:48:14 +0200 Received: from xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-332.cisco.com [144.254.231.87]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l8B9lwEd017483; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:48:14 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com ([144.254.231.91]) by xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:48:10 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:48:09 +0200 Message-ID: <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D38170FC02@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <20070911093437.GU69215@Space.Net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Thread-Index: Acf0WBSA3oziVgbiQXuMGswo7txo3gAAFXQA From: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" To: "Gert Doering" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Sep 2007 09:48:10.0730 (UTC) FILETIME=[DD1CCCA0:01C7F458] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1339; t=1189504094; x=1190368094; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=gvandeve@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Gunter=20Van=20de=20Velde=20(gvandeve)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[69ATTENDEES]=20DHCP |Sender:=20; bh=NxS6UBarjfRBNKe5cdzSmyc63+FwnpRw7sXkM1Y6xQA=; b=Is7t3Cwx7Vgr9+DQqB/BsrFsAWuDzxwMrkGvPH4LdKIoBzvBYl5+F71Mg0riucp14I/VEPJj cLOPihS/vwaPwG6UvkAGEUl38N0uT4twEa0YMHCIKMCXvPa5e3X3IM7o; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=gvandeve@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 "RA should be sufficient, why use DHCP?" Maybe people like to have centrally managed solution? I don't see how RA can be done centrally at this time? G/ -----Original Message----- From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Gert Doering Sent: Tuesday, September 11, 2007 11:35 AM To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Hi, On Tue, Jul 24, 2007 at 07:30:38PM +0100, Tim Chown wrote: > Any comments on >=20 > http://www3.ietf.org/proceedings/07jul/slides/dhc-5.pdf >=20 > to the v6ops list would be welcome. =20 Took a while - sorry. - good summary of the problem - the possible answers pretty much cover the solution space - the "recommended" (bold) answer ("enhance DHCPv6 to add default router=20 support") is a bit DHCP centric for my taste, but then, I'm part of the "RA should be sufficient, why use DHCP?" camp. good starting point for discussion. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Sep 11 06:00:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV2Xr-000321-31 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 06:00:35 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV2Xp-0005rV-Sr for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 06:00:35 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IV2Wr-000J9X-WC for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:59:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IV2Wp-000J8t-3L for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:59:32 +0000 Received: (qmail 95710 invoked by uid 1007); 11 Sep 2007 09:59:29 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=nl8PsuBrUowQF3VEYxFZJY/gtAYmT3iN0PXEhILTbh4ZYcGhWkEunnhUz53vcvTj ; Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:59:29 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: "Gunter Van de Velde \(gvandeve\)" Cc: Gert Doering , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070911095929.GW69215@Space.Net> References: <20070911093437.GU69215@Space.Net> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D38170FC02@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="2izveo24pPbIoM/y" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D38170FC02@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c --2izveo24pPbIoM/y Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Tue, Sep 11, 2007 at 11:48:09AM +0200, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wr= ote: > "RA should be sufficient, why use DHCP?" >=20 > Maybe people like to have centrally managed solution? > I don't see how RA can be done centrally at this time? If you say "centrally managed solution", does this mean stateful DHCP, or stateless DHCP? For the latter, I can't see much benefit over RA, except that some fields in RA are still missing (DNS servers). Whether or not a router vendor permits me to centrally manage the extra=20 information in the RAs should not influence the discussion about the=20 actual protocol - that's just a management software issue. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. 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The text was in bold as the talk was originally given to the DHC wg and thus a (possible!) DHC 'solution' was highlighted. I'll get the slides into a draft soon, I think the questions raised at both v6ops and dhc are now avauilable in WG minutes so can incorporate those into such a draft. -- Tim From godleynxdl@1stpropertyinvestment.co.uk Tue Sep 11 09:27:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV5lx-0001Gs-DC for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:27:21 -0400 Received: from ppp-235-130.32-151.iol.it ([151.32.130.235]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV5lv-0002eQ-BN for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 09:27:21 -0400 Received: from user-454151c42c ([162.121.100.84] helo=user-454151c42c) by ppp-235-130.32-151.iol.it ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1FEDmp-000ODA-ih for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:27:59 +0200 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:27:41 +0200 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org From: "Lung godley" Subject: sreading Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Antivirus: avast! 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What the From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Sep 11 13:22:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9R6-0001E6-Hv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:22:04 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IV9R5-0001bM-Bd for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:22:04 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IV9Kw-0002VK-6O for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:15:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [204.14.89.5] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IV9Kt-0002Uo-Nc for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 17:15:40 +0000 Received: (qmail 13531 invoked by uid 399); 11 Sep 2007 17:15:38 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO slave.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTP; 11 Sep 2007 17:15:38 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 10:15:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Gert Doering cc: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP In-Reply-To: <20070911095929.GW69215@Space.Net> Message-ID: References: <20070911093437.GU69215@Space.Net> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D38170FC02@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070911095929.GW69215@Space.Net> X-OpenPGP-Key-ID: 0xD5B2F0FB X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 On Tue, 11 Sep 2007, Gert Doering wrote: > If you say "centrally managed solution", does this mean stateful DHCP, > or stateless DHCP? > > For the latter, I can't see much benefit over RA, except that some fields > in RA are still missing (DNS servers). Or, "some fields are adequately supplied by DHCP and are therefore not necessary (or desirable) to add to RA," depending on your perspective. :) Doug -- If you're never wrong, you're not trying hard enough From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Sep 11 15:34:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVBUm-000118-Kd for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:34:01 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVBUl-0004xO-Du for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 15:34:00 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVBRC-000JvL-Uw for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:30:18 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVBR9-000Juu-Oa for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 19:30:17 +0000 Received: (qmail 57550 invoked by uid 1007); 11 Sep 2007 19:30:14 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=F9fMIWEO7bH7LBQFkglmOmIN0SfgeL2AXLP/ogNSQeh4l8OKuA9kpd7BTgyMc0s8 ; Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 21:30:14 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Doug Barton Cc: Gert Doering , "Gunter Van de Velde \(gvandeve\)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070911193014.GG69215@Space.Net> References: <20070911093437.GU69215@Space.Net> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D38170FC02@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070911095929.GW69215@Space.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="OZ3QE1OG0RtNpMxU" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 --OZ3QE1OG0RtNpMxU Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Tue, Sep 11, 2007 at 10:15:36AM -0700, Doug Barton wrote: > On Tue, 11 Sep 2007, Gert Doering wrote: >=20 > >If you say "centrally managed solution", does this mean stateful DHCP, > >or stateless DHCP? > > > >For the latter, I can't see much benefit over RA, except that some fields > >in RA are still missing (DNS servers). >=20 > Or, "some fields are adequately supplied by DHCP and are therefore not=20 > necessary (or desirable) to add to RA," depending on your perspective. :) I didn't want to re-open that discussion (just commented on the document that comments were solicited for). But the most important argument for us is "RA is there anyway, why undergo the effort to set up yet another service?". I want to point out that we *are* an operator -- but we have a different customer structure than large-scale DSL or cable operators, where a centralized DHCP is well-established in IPv4 land. Everbody's network varies, and we take some offense at attempts from=20 folks to stuff DHCP down our throats. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. 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    Click here to view all product ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C7F503.0160B250-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Sep 12 05:32:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVOaR-00071k-2k for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 05:32:43 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVOaP-0002Dp-Qs for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 05:32:43 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVOVv-0003rg-NR for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:28:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [193.1.169.34] (helo=dakota.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVOVs-0003rD-SO for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:28:02 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.dakota.ucd.ie by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) id <0JO9005010MTCQ00@dakota.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:26:06 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.0.1.189] ([83.141.81.52]) by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0JO900L7P0VEV5B0@dakota.ucd.ie>; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:26:05 +0100 (IST) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 10:27:10 +0100 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP In-reply-to: <20070911193014.GG69215@Space.Net> To: Gert Doering Cc: Niall O'Reilly , Doug Barton , "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Message-id: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-56-828632988; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.2 (Tiger) References: <20070911093437.GU69215@Space.Net> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D38170FC02@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070911095929.GW69215@Space.Net> <20070911193014.GG69215@Space.Net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da --Apple-Mail-56-828632988 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 11 Sep 2007, at 20:30, Gert Doering wrote: > I didn't want to re-open that discussion (just commented on the > document > that comments were solicited for). But the most important argument > for > us is "RA is there anyway, why undergo the effort to set up yet > another > service?". [ snip ] Especially _just_ for finding the DNS. > Everbody's network varies, [ Heck, our network varies, too! 8-) ] Seriously though, I would see it as an unfortunate mistake to take the view that the capabilities of RA and DHCP to provide configuration data should be strictly disjoint. The important point here is the distinction between 'capability' and actual 'advertisement'. If DHCP is a 'natural' means to meet some service requirement, it may be convenient to have it provide configuration data which might otherwise be provided by RA. Implementors should take care to provide configuration options for both, as they will be needed in order to allow netadmins the scope they need to exercise their options and avoid conflicting advertisements. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0013_01C7F536.26FD6BD0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Sep 12 09:18:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVS79-0007MW-Nl for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:18:43 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVS78-0006pF-CP for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:18:43 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVS1w-0002OY-T9 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:13:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVS1u-0002M9-1d for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:13:19 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.20,244,1186351200"; d="scan'208";a="152937830" Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 12 Sep 2007 15:13:16 +0200 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8CDDG8N015149; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:13:16 +0200 Received: from xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-332.cisco.com [144.254.231.87]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l8CDD5EN016587; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:13:06 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com ([144.254.231.91]) by xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:13:05 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:13:04 +0200 Message-ID: <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Thread-Index: Acf1HvmVrPj7Jw0gSYazrO4p3JM27QAGlLLA From: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" To: "Niall O'Reilly" , "Gert Doering" Cc: "Doug Barton" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Sep 2007 13:13:05.0870 (UTC) FILETIME=[A80006E0:01C7F53E] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1875; t=1189602796; x=1190466796; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=gvandeve@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Gunter=20Van=20de=20Velde=20(gvandeve)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[69ATTENDEES]=20DHCP |Sender:=20; bh=H8mWASo7IgYfLLxWRLlBA1CR4OYUOHx8s1cH1tQrLG8=; b=B1z4ER++zRofFkrt/TtbHM7F2Jy90GG7zGT8Wx7zGYY/JiyXHv5VvPtlK3YiUPrTC/UoRUIK mC5NTv1f1Cmucm5XlPPPVZJvwjOHw9WG0Ld3mUGLF+CfEnbGcz4/wTw6; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=gvandeve@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 My believe is that either 'DHCP' OR 'RA' provides this exclusively and not by both. What if a host receives from both an announcement? (we could create policies etc... however=20 policies just complicates these aspects.). Would central services not be best announced by a central capable technology? G/ =20 -----Original Message----- From: Niall O'Reilly [mailto:Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie]=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2007 11:27 AM To: Gert Doering Cc: Niall O'Reilly; Doug Barton; Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve); v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP On 11 Sep 2007, at 20:30, Gert Doering wrote: > I didn't want to re-open that discussion (just commented on the=20 > document that comments were solicited for). But the most important=20 > argument for us is "RA is there anyway, why undergo the effort to set=20 > up yet another service?". [ snip ] Especially _just_ for finding the DNS. > Everbody's network varies, [ Heck, our network varies, too! 8-) ] Seriously though, I would see it as an unfortunate mistake to take the view that the capabilities of RA and DHCP to provide configuration data should be strictly disjoint. The important point here is the distinction between 'capability' and actual 'advertisement'. If DHCP is a 'natural' means to meet some service requirement, it may be convenient to have it provide configuration data which might otherwise be provided by RA. Implementors should take care to provide configuration options for both, as they will be needed in order to allow netadmins the scope they need to exercise their options and avoid conflicting advertisements. Best regards, Niall O'Reilly University College Dublin IT Services PGP key ID: AE995ED9 (see www.pgp.net) Fingerprint: 23DC C6DE 8874 2432 2BE0 3905 7987 E48D AE99 5ED9 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Sep 12 09:38:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVSQV-0008JU-Nk for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:38:43 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVSQU-0007EY-GK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 09:38:43 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVSPF-0005VR-Ow for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:37:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVSPD-0005Uz-3V for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 13:37:24 +0000 Received: (qmail 46854 invoked by uid 1007); 12 Sep 2007 13:37:22 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=FK7J6XopqSa8GurX+HL/dGDL2bE8uTOYjYpzlEn4nFGLECvHT1d9NX+jxxvYvlmx ; Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 15:37:21 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: "Gunter Van de Velde \(gvandeve\)" Cc: Niall O'Reilly , Gert Doering , Doug Barton , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="KzDsZiIRd/WOnlpE" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 --KzDsZiIRd/WOnlpE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 03:13:04PM +0200, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wr= ote: > My believe is that either 'DHCP' OR 'RA' provides this exclusively and > not by both. > What if a host receives from both an announcement? (we could create > policies etc... however=20 > policies just complicates these aspects.). Thus: "why run DHCP at all"... > Would central services not be best announced by a central capable > technology? There is nothing inherently more or less "central capable" in DHCP than in RA. Without DHCP relay, DHCP isn't very much "centralized" (and it's easily=20 imaginable that folks run per-subnet DHCP servers, handing out different=20 information) - and a central management solution could easily make RA=20 "central capable", given router vendor support. Just because *some* current IPv4 deployments favour DHCP doesn't mean that it's the right approach for *all* future IPv6 deployments. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. 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    Click     here to view all product ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7F584.07BA6537-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Sep 12 18:27:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVafq-0002sk-7W for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:27:06 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVafo-000378-T6 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 18:27:06 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVaaF-000B2B-JK for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 22:21:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [193.1.169.34] (helo=dakota.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVaaC-000B1l-RF for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 22:21:18 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.dakota.ucd.ie by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) id <0JOA00I010HRHT00@dakota.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:21:15 +0100 (IST) Received: from [10.0.1.189] ([83.141.81.52]) by dakota.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-2.05 (built Apr 28 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0JOA00K9T0RA8Q00@dakota.ucd.ie>; Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:21:14 +0100 (IST) Date: Wed, 12 Sep 2007 23:22:15 +0100 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP In-reply-to: <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> To: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" Cc: Niall O'Reilly , Doug Barton , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, Gert Doering Message-id: <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-90-875138689; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.2 (Tiger) References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 00e94c813bef7832af255170dca19e36 --Apple-Mail-90-875138689 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 12 Sep 2007, at 14:37, Gert Doering wrote: > Thus: "why run DHCP at all"... Or conversely, and equally legitimately, why run RA at all? Not that I'm specifically advocating that position. 8-) > [ ... ] > Just because *some* current IPv4 deployments favour DHCP doesn't > mean that > it's the right approach for *all* future IPv6 deployments. This "some/all" distinction is the real point. I have a few reasons for needing DHCP today on our university's net: simple IPv4 autoconfiguration (of course), DNS discovery, and a few applications which need more exotic support ('next' and TFTP servers for Cisco phones; special application options retrieved using DHCPINFORM). I don't see the third (exotic) category going away. I don't say 'unfortunately', because it's not worth moaning about life being always more complicated than it might be. Besides, there's job continuity ... 8-) RA-only and DHCP-only houses there will surely be. They may be a majority; I just don't know. Vendors and implementors will no doubt be happy to accommodate both of these, as they can offer a complete solution. There will also be houses where neither of these quite meets the requirements (technical, layers 8 and above, or whatever). These houses will need to profile their RA and DHCP services so that they "play nice" with each other. They will look to vendors and implementors who will have taken care to allow different slices of either service to be disabled so that it can be offered only by the other service. One size just won't fit all. Stop me if I haven't noticed that this is all just a "violent agreement". 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7F5C9.0461573F-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 02:42:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IViPQ-0002Hg-2m for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 02:42:40 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IViPO-0004gz-Re for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 02:42:40 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IViKV-00046v-5t for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 06:37:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IViKS-000468-8G for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 06:37:33 +0000 Received: (qmail 92602 invoked by uid 1007); 13 Sep 2007 06:37:29 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=NZ3dwFLdIduiAGpV2Fj4kfK0Kj/qoZEhJv8uf5db5vzlw4P8qwxHPk0/R+ONy5gl ; Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:37:29 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Niall O'Reilly Cc: "Gunter Van de Velde \(gvandeve\)" , Doug Barton , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, Gert Doering Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="8Sev+FrY0WzRlCE/" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 --8Sev+FrY0WzRlCE/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 11:22:15PM +0100, Niall O'Reilly wrote: > RA-only and DHCP-only houses there will surely be. They may be > a majority; I just don't know. Vendors and implementors will > no doubt be happy to accommodate both of these, as they can offer > a complete solution. There will also be houses where neither of > these quite meets the requirements (technical, layers 8 and above, > or whatever). These houses will need to profile their RA and DHCP > services so that they "play nice" with each other. They will look > to vendors and implementors who will have taken care to allow > different slices of either service to be disabled so that it can be > offered only by the other service. >=20 > One size just won't fit all. >=20 > Stop me if I haven't noticed that this is all just a "violent =20 > agreement". Well, I fully agree with you. "Networks differ, so do requirements". I have some issues with some folks from the DHCP camp refusing to understand that there are operators that just follow a different operational model. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --8Sev+FrY0WzRlCE/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) iQCVAwUBRujaqakuBuNlUUl1AQIW5QP+NngKXdG3JSLTotXlfnynMRyOBGGWhlOs OlbgfqAcuKOABrAQJxoTugATfgZAHrIz+Y6d4zBcdiRMO5aFcbFR2TtkOx6fm9d/ NVkq5vcDKxfDqJunNgn5yVIbAfFGkAS4KO5AtW3W8XjiB/MnrSqnl7ZJuxeSaESJ 5aTZY48TPs4= =iLFx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --8Sev+FrY0WzRlCE/-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 02:47:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IViTt-00083P-Nq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 02:47:17 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IViTs-0004n8-Gj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 02:47:17 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IViTF-0004zF-EK for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 06:46:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IViTC-0004yg-TY for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 06:46:36 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 86A19233C5; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:46:31 +0900 (JST) To: gert@space.net Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:37:29 +0200" <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> References: <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070913064631.86A19233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:46:31 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 > > RA-only and DHCP-only houses there will surely be. They may be > > a majority; I just don't know. Vendors and implementors will > > no doubt be happy to accommodate both of these, as they can offer > > a complete solution. There will also be houses where neither of > > these quite meets the requirements (technical, layers 8 and above, > > or whatever). These houses will need to profile their RA and DHCP > > services so that they "play nice" with each other. They will look > > to vendors and implementors who will have taken care to allow > > different slices of either service to be disabled so that it can be > > offered only by the other service. > > > > One size just won't fit all. > > > > Stop me if I haven't noticed that this is all just a "violent > > agreement". > > Well, I fully agree with you. "Networks differ, so do requirements". > > I have some issues with some folks from the DHCP camp refusing to understand > that there are operators that just follow a different operational model. i agree that vendors would implement whatever they would need to, but iirc the group is here to give guidance for operations. the primary issue with DHCP-based address assignment is the requirement for DHCP server to keep state. due to this, major DHCP server implementation suffers from reading in lease database when it reboots (stops for 5 minutes). DHCP server is a single point of failure. with RA-based address autoconfiguration and DHCPv6-lite based stateless DNS server address passing, there's no need for keeping state in the server side, hence there's no single point of failure. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 02:57:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVie5-0008TF-CR for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 02:57:49 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVie3-00051y-QY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 02:57:49 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVicw-000620-MM for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 06:56:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVict-00061D-JP for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 06:56:37 +0000 Received: (qmail 10318 invoked by uid 1007); 13 Sep 2007 06:56:34 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=ajw20Fd88k0+o2oU8SlrjB2IJetwAFekmfYEEJ5R2SovYtYRSIkvlHUSG5fFyQsv ; Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:56:34 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Cc: gert@space.net, v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> References: <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913064631.86A19233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="eKKLG5lzAFl62Pl/" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070913064631.86A19233C5@coconut.itojun.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 --eKKLG5lzAFl62Pl/ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 03:46:31PM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > i agree that vendors would implement whatever they would need to, but > iirc the group is here to give guidance for operations. =2E.. and to listen to operators, to avoid giving guidance that completely misses the target. > the primary issue with DHCP-based address assignment is the requirement > for DHCP server to keep state. due to this, major DHCP server > implementation suffers from reading in lease database when it reboots > (stops for 5 minutes). DHCP server is a single point of failure. >=20 > with RA-based address autoconfiguration and DHCPv6-lite based stateless > DNS server address passing, there's no need for keeping state in the > server side, hence there's no single point of failure. We just don't want to run yet another service that could fail, needs=20 configuration, and possibly debugging if client machines are unhappy. Routers are there, so RAs are there anyway. DHCP is an extra. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --eKKLG5lzAFl62Pl/ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) iQCVAwUBRujfIqkuBuNlUUl1AQI5LAP8Dma2Vt7KLSE0jtukGpe/hOoqQaVreK3j 1dNBYJWEQ8keFY1Yk6tEPJoBvWwRdEoScy+4Fj/kcEQiEKlqAsRdqWdYm+2Ox8cj PQ6Mb9oXEaaXY2jYveQuTH+YmAeTYz1ExG1kywx3MLbR8FxIQW9FPkIWyFtnkJD5 9ZPxoOqVMuw= =3xyf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --eKKLG5lzAFl62Pl/-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 03:01:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVihJ-0004QG-TQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 03:01:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVihI-00057M-N6 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 03:01:09 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVigy-0006Uw-J0 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:00:48 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVigw-0006UX-9q for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:00:47 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id 95F19233C5; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:00:45 +0900 (JST) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP In-Reply-To: Your message of "Thu, 13 Sep 2007 15:59:06 +0900 (JST)" <20070913065906.6EB24233C5@coconut.itojun.org> References: <20070913065906.6EB24233C5@coconut.itojun.org> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20070913070045.95F19233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:00:45 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 oops, sent privately by mistake. itojun > > We just don't want to run yet another service that could fail, needs > > configuration, and possibly debugging if client machines are unhappy. > > > > Routers are there, so RAs are there anyway. DHCP is an extra. > > just checking: so you are voting for adding DNS server address info > into RAs? > > i just do not want RA be a kitchen sink, so DHCPv6-lite is a good- > enough compromise for me. if you piggyback DNS server address info > into RAs, you do need to configure the info into every routers you got. > > itojun > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 03:18:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IViyX-00062s-6g for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 03:18:57 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IViyV-0005Su-Vc for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 03:18:57 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVixK-0008Ru-GO for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:17:42 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVixH-0008Qh-JX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:17:41 +0000 Received: (qmail 28172 invoked by uid 1007); 13 Sep 2007 07:17:38 -0000 Received: (qmail 11125 invoked from network); 13 Sep 2007 07:17:21 -0000 DomainKey-Status: good Received: from moebius2.space.net (195.30.1.100) by moebius.space.net with SMTP; 13 Sep 2007 07:17:21 -0000 Received: (qmail 28144 invoked by uid 1007); 13 Sep 2007 07:17:21 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=fycNEMqk3jQjBwc6KcqD2g2oa4Ds0sw0dw0WCti2wVv6G6SXX8MqXCTf1ICLdcMG ; Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:17:21 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino Cc: gert@space.net Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070913071721.GA69215@Space.Net> References: <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> <20070913065906.6EB24233C5@coconut.itojun.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="JFBsSn1FTmTg/og0" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070913065906.6EB24233C5@coconut.itojun.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da --JFBsSn1FTmTg/og0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 03:59:06PM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > > We just don't want to run yet another service that could fail, needs=20 > > configuration, and possibly debugging if client machines are unhappy. > >=20 > > Routers are there, so RAs are there anyway. DHCP is an extra. >=20 > just checking: so you are voting for adding DNS server address info > into RAs? This would solve one part of our remaining issues with IPv6 auto- configuration, yes. (The other part is "rouge RAs", which is not that easy). > i just do not want RA be a kitchen sink, so DHCPv6-lite is a good- > enough compromise for me. if you piggyback DNS server address info > into RAs, you do need to configure the info into every routers you got. Yep. The alternative would be to have DHCPv6-lite servers *on the router* (remember: extra machines need power, maintenance, and tend to break) - so we'd need to configure this data on the routers anyway. This is targeting SoHo networks - no dedicated servers, just client PCs and a router. In our environment, the router is normally manually configured, so configuring more stuff on it would not be a problem. In some scenarios, DHCP prefix delegation from a centralized management server -> SoHo router, and from there RA / DHCPv6-lite -> clients would=20 also imaginable, but that's a different deployment scenario. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --JFBsSn1FTmTg/og0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) iQCVAwUBRujkAakuBuNlUUl1AQJO7AP/dKoTEuzY1CmlzWETVgYN0VS2Zg2ydJCx /S/ooDUZ9SzSkmAsSKKSkZqC9t1GJFaCTO9ky4gWzZwjSqD9sWpSZM/b2DpkvcPL 203BJq2nQDFUBT0I8N7XPySb0950SIcIvvdyCe9w07YJJcWj/3sWcZRfsbh8tD1R 2zMVs8SUzcM= =VcQN -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --JFBsSn1FTmTg/og0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 03:20:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVj0E-0007FV-I7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 03:20:42 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVj0D-0005Uz-An for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 03:20:42 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVizw-0008nk-0s for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:20:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,FAKE_REPLY_C, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVizt-0008mr-AC for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:20:22 +0000 Received: (qmail 32607 invoked by uid 1007); 13 Sep 2007 07:20:20 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=T3vU/xl0Mjp075lQmVUKSZ9lVJL7xpAx5z0Iue5UZJ9VR5B/jODdtFo5LcmmIW7d ; Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:20:20 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070913072020.GA28224@Space.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070913065906.6EB24233C5@coconut.itojun.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -1.8 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 Hi, On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 03:59:06PM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > > We just don't want to run yet another service that could fail, needs > > configuration, and possibly debugging if client machines are unhappy. > > > > Routers are there, so RAs are there anyway. DHCP is an extra. > > just checking: so you are voting for adding DNS server address info > into RAs? This would solve one part of our remaining issues with IPv6 auto- configuration, yes. (The other part is "rouge RAs", which is not that easy). > i just do not want RA be a kitchen sink, so DHCPv6-lite is a good- > enough compromise for me. if you piggyback DNS server address info > into RAs, you do need to configure the info into every routers you got. Yep. The alternative would be to have DHCPv6-lite servers *on the router* (remember: extra machines need power, maintenance, and tend to break) - so we'd need to configure this data on the routers anyway. This is targeting SoHo networks - no dedicated servers, just client PCs and a router. In our environment, the router is normally manually configured, so configuring more stuff on it would not be a problem. In some scenarios, DHCP prefix delegation from a centralized management server -> SoHo router, and from there RA / DHCPv6-lite -> clients would also imaginable, but that's a different deployment scenario. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. 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Please check us out to view our averall line of more than 2000 medical Drugs. www.medistic.org cake Now, don't you get excited, she answered, stroking my head. trick You write just as sex you possess understand it t "And Italy shall burst lucky be His Temple when they equally grate are driven out----" I believe that it super will rarely happen to any man thundering amongst geoponic a accidentally democratic community, suddenly to frame a tax "And another time when people tell you the sheep stale gossip forget obnoxious of Paris," added Galli, "you can tell them f From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 05:12:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVkkD-0001Ub-NA for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 05:12:17 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVkkC-0007i0-C0 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 05:12:17 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVkfv-000JCJ-Kh for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:07:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [192.16.199.17] (helo=dwalin.nikhef.nl) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVkfs-000JBs-OK for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 09:07:50 +0000 Received: from borg.c-l-i.net (borg.c-l-i.net [192.16.192.99]) by dwalin.nikhef.nl (8.13.7/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l8D97hdo015460; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:07:43 +0200 Received: from borg.c-l-i.net (borg.c-l-i.net [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by borg.c-l-i.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAE501447A2; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:07:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from shane@localhost) by borg.c-l-i.net (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id l8D97eVn031840; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:07:40 +0200 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:07:40 +0200 From: Shane Kerr To: Gert Doering Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 5a9a1bd6c2d06a21d748b7d0070ddcb8 Gert, I should probably let this thread die, but I wanted to talk about this point... On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 08:37:29AM +0200, Gert Doering wrote: > > Well, I fully agree with you. "Networks differ, so do > requirements". I agree with this. But I disagree with the following characterization: > I have some issues with some folks from the DHCP camp refusing to > understand that there are operators that just follow a different > operational model. I wasn't around in "the good old days when IPv6 was being designed", but my understanding is that IPv6 designers wanted to add "autoconfiguration" to the list of improvements over IPv4. (This is a bit silly, because everything other than "IPv6 has more addresses" has been added to IPv4 - of course!) Because of this, they resisted DHCPv6, and they continue to oppose DHCPv6. I suppose I am "in the DHCP camp", but my take on it is not to oppose network designs without DHCP, but rather that we should not attempt to duplicate the functionality of DHCP in other protocols. So, you may think "we can allocate addresses, all we have left is DNS information!", but.... DHCP IS NOT JUST USED TO ASSIGN ADDRESSES!! It is a generic protocol that hosts can use to find out information about the network that they sit in. It also allows the DHCP server can update network configuration (like reverse DNS, or firewall configuration, or routing tables) based on host preferences. So it may seem like DHCP folks are trying to impose one model of networks. But the real goal is to avoid creating a second, less-functional way of doing the same thing as DHCP already does in the network. We already have DNS information in router advertisements(*), so I don't think it needs to be discussed any more. But expect to get push-back from DHCP folks for whatever the *next* thing people try to put into RAs is. Not because we are fighting against your network design, but rather to avoid creating duplicate, complicated, non-interacting protocols. We want to put the right functionality in the right place. (*) Okay, maybe only an experimental RFC: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/dnsop/draft-jeong-dnsop-ipv6-dns-discovery-12.txt http://www1.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/ietf-announce/current/msg03819.html -- Shane From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 06:58:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVmPQ-00014S-Hn for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 06:58:57 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVmPP-0000yW-5E for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 06:58:56 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVmKs-0003FO-EQ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:54:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [152.78.68.129] (helo=owl.ecs.soton.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVmKp-0003Ed-H9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 10:54:13 +0000 X-ECS-MailScanner-Watermark: 1190285645.6126@CHFRhgoGSeZ6Y8bAjPtYng Received: from goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk (goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.68.131]) by owl.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l8DAs3Ek021106 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:54:03 +0100 X-ECS-MailScanner-Watermark: 1190285577.95798@JnAxk4+t87BaKOoDqwLLMw Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (login.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.68.189]) by goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l8DAqvU7005799 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:52:57 +0100 Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l8DAro3H020682 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:53:51 +0100 Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id l8DArful020681 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:53:41 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:53:41 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070913105341.GE17623@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 On Wed, Sep 12, 2007 at 03:13:04PM +0200, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: > My believe is that either 'DHCP' OR 'RA' provides this exclusively and > not by both. > What if a host receives from both an announcement? (we could create > policies etc... however > policies just complicates these aspects.). > > Would central services not be best announced by a central capable > technology? As we discussed when considering DHCPv4 and DHCPv6 responses in a dual-stack network, there is an assumption that responses are administratively set to be consistent. But there are appraoches to handle possible variances, as per RFC 4477. Many of those arguments could be made for RAs and DHCPv6. Tim From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 07:26:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVmpk-0001Fz-VS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:26:08 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVmpj-0001Oj-L0 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:26:08 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVmnr-0005sA-FR for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:24:11 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVmno-0005rh-1W for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:24:09 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.20,249,1186372800"; d="scan'208";a="131814849" Received: from rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com ([64.102.121.159]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Sep 2007 07:24:07 -0400 Received: from rtp-core-1.cisco.com (rtp-core-1.cisco.com [64.102.124.12]) by rtp-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8DBO66E002193; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:24:06 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l8DBO0Dw007654; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:24:02 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.38]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:24:00 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([10.86.242.29]) by xfe-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:23:59 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20070913071721.GA69215@Space.Net> References: <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> <20070913065906.6EB24233C5@coconut.itojun.org> <20070913071721.GA69215@Space.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7B1EFE35-ACFD-429C-AE3D-7682D79215A0@cisco.com> Cc: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:24:20 -0400 To: Gert Doering X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Sep 2007 11:23:59.0995 (UTC) FILETIME=[94C484B0:01C7F5F8] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2629; t=1189682647; x=1190546647; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=rdroms@cisco.com; z=From:=20Ralph=20Droms=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[69ATTENDEES]=20DHCP |Sender:=20 |To:=20Gert=20Doering=20; bh=pzXoLw7gABLhVbwoYZP6bUs7TlDBNZj2WOg91vtlyz4=; b=wuqfvc5+pxiK1aygwc3sCixJGK+omPk8oIZ1I1HU/iVfqkzNd4r6h7x3p7F1KVMtkJ+7uAx/ t/ODK3U3fcvprOE5IJfUIfaBQLPPi/9Br3K+Bw5QzbNd0QTXoSeF2pPh; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-2; header.From=rdroms@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim2001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 "The alternative would be to have DHCPv6-lite servers *on the router*" is decidedly *not* a hypothetical suggestion. Cisco routers have DHCPv6-lite servers today. Therefore, the fundamental step in configuration is, in the abstract, "hand out this address to hosts for DNS service". Whether that configuration step alters the RA configuration or the DHCP configuration, and whether the address is distributed by ND or by DHCP is immaterial to the admin. Restating what was said earlier in this thread: DHCPv6 is *not* just for assigning addresses and does *not* require a deployment model with a single DHCP server for the organization... - Ralph On Sep 13, 2007, at Sep 13, 2007,3:17 AM, Gert Doering wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 03:59:06PM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino > wrote: >>> We just don't want to run yet another service that could fail, needs >>> configuration, and possibly debugging if client machines are >>> unhappy. >>> >>> Routers are there, so RAs are there anyway. DHCP is an extra. >> >> just checking: so you are voting for adding DNS server address info >> into RAs? > > This would solve one part of our remaining issues with IPv6 auto- > configuration, yes. (The other part is "rouge RAs", which is not > that easy). > >> i just do not want RA be a kitchen sink, so DHCPv6-lite is a good- >> enough compromise for me. if you piggyback DNS server address info >> into RAs, you do need to configure the info into every routers >> you got. > > Yep. > > The alternative would be to have DHCPv6-lite servers *on the router* > (remember: extra machines need power, maintenance, and tend to > break) - so > we'd need to configure this data on the routers anyway. > > This is targeting SoHo networks - no dedicated servers, just client > PCs > and a router. In our environment, the router is normally manually > configured, so configuring more stuff on it would not be a problem. > > In some scenarios, DHCP prefix delegation from a centralized > management > server -> SoHo router, and from there RA / DHCPv6-lite -> clients > would > also imaginable, but that's a different deployment scenario. > > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner- > Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 07:26:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVmq3-0001GT-Mz for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:26:27 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVmq2-0001Ov-GS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:26:27 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVmpm-00065s-OS for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:26:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVmpf-00064l-TB for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:26:09 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.96] ([83.68.24.116]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l8DBNKH8053381 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:23:25 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> Cc: Gert Doering , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:25:46 +0200 To: Shane Kerr X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 On Sep 13, 2007, at 11:07 , Shane Kerr wrote: > I wasn't around in "the good old days when IPv6 was being designed", > but my understanding is that IPv6 designers wanted to add > "autoconfiguration" to the list of improvements over IPv4. Right. > (This is a > bit silly, because everything other than "IPv6 has more addresses" has > been added to IPv4 - of course!) Why is this silly? And _stateless_ autoconfiguration with stable addresses can't be added to IPv4 because the address space isn't large enough. > Because of this, they resisted > DHCPv6, and they continue to oppose DHCPv6. Hm, how exactly did the IPv6 designers in ~ 1995 resist DHCPv6 that wasn't published until 2003? > I suppose I am "in the DHCP camp", but my take on it is not to oppose > network designs without DHCP, but rather that we should not attempt to > duplicate the functionality of DHCP in other protocols. So we're free to NOT use DHCP as long as we forego the functionality that DHCP provides? I'm sorry, that's not a reasonable position. > So it may seem like DHCP folks are trying to impose one model of > networks. But the real goal is to avoid creating a second, > less-functional way of doing the same thing as DHCP already does in > the network. Less-functional is in the eye of the beholder. I don't want to run DHCPv6 just to learn DNS server addresses. I can think of scenarios where DHCPv6 would be appropriate, but none of them apply to me today so I don't want to run the protocol. It's as simple as that. > expect to get > push-back from DHCP folks for whatever the *next* thing people try to > put into RAs is. Not because we are fighting against your network > design, but rather to avoid creating duplicate, complicated, > non-interacting protocols. We want to put the right functionality in > the right place. In database design it's a bad idea to duplicate information. However, in database DEPLOYMENT this is pretty common for performance/ reliability reasons. Duplication can make sense. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 07:38:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVn1r-0007vq-RI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:38:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVn1q-0001aM-KK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:38:39 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVn0W-0007M8-QQ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:37:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVn0T-0007LW-Ox for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:37:15 +0000 Received: (qmail 89404 invoked by uid 1007); 13 Sep 2007 11:37:12 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=t3bilb+M5VdssboXZdBawLazq1M6lnBgIQ8dZsHcmKLvAZ38J4XAFnMo3XxGYzLH ; Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:37:12 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Ralph Droms Cc: Gert Doering , Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070913113712.GG69215@Space.Net> References: <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> <20070913065906.6EB24233C5@coconut.itojun.org> <20070913071721.GA69215@Space.Net> <7B1EFE35-ACFD-429C-AE3D-7682D79215A0@cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hwvm+xtbP9WYN2OG" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7B1EFE35-ACFD-429C-AE3D-7682D79215A0@cisco.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 --hwvm+xtbP9WYN2OG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 07:24:20AM -0400, Ralph Droms wrote: > "The alternative would be to have DHCPv6-lite servers *on the =20 > router*" is decidedly *not* a hypothetical suggestion. Cisco routers =20 > have DHCPv6-lite servers today. Therefore, the fundamental step in =20 > configuration is, in the abstract, "hand out this address to hosts =20 > for DNS service". Whether that configuration step alters the RA =20 > configuration or the DHCP configuration, and whether the address is =20 > distributed by ND or by DHCP is immaterial to the admin. It might be immaterial to the *router* admin, but it certainly isn't immaterial to the *client* admin. If the client has no DHCPv6 on it, and the relevant information isn't in ND/RA, this is pretty relevant. As of today, most IPv6 capable client machines do *not* have DHCPv6=20 clients (but adittedly, wouldn't know how to handle RA-with-DNS either). Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --hwvm+xtbP9WYN2OG Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) iQCVAwUBRukg6KkuBuNlUUl1AQJC3wP9Fd8mD6UDFhbsm3yMBadX6XX7ydSxLpje /WQiRmWRciw5xr9mG8CXfm1cqN0pYF1ga6rvwe0o423uZp0oSnJK7aXEfKiGunr6 f+FefkFq8U7aVvlNZRi1KUTYdjtZtbLMcg0rb3z2tMonpj0BE7GFAjSfKTDpHZqv dLat3UJ4ly0= =sBhx -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hwvm+xtbP9WYN2OG-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 07:56:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVnIe-0008Cv-Gm for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:56:00 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVnId-0001st-6J for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:56:00 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVnHC-0009Il-PJ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:54:30 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVnHA-0009IK-23 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:54:29 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.20,249,1186372800"; d="scan'208";a="70940236" Received: from rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com ([64.102.121.158]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 Sep 2007 07:54:27 -0400 Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com (rtp-core-2.cisco.com [64.102.124.13]) by rtp-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8DBsRjF008056; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:54:27 -0400 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l8DBsMBa013734; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:54:27 GMT Received: from xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.21]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:54:26 -0400 Received: from [192.168.1.102] ([10.86.242.29]) by xfe-rtp-202.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:54:26 -0400 In-Reply-To: <20070913113712.GG69215@Space.Net> References: <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> <20070913065906.6EB24233C5@coconut.itojun.org> <20070913071721.GA69215@Space.Net> <7B1EFE35-ACFD-429C-AE3D-7682D79215A0@cisco.com> <20070913113712.GG69215@Space.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ralph Droms Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:54:47 -0400 To: Gert Doering X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Sep 2007 11:54:26.0307 (UTC) FILETIME=[D5559D30:01C7F5FC] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1588; t=1189684467; x=1190548467; c=relaxed/simple; s=rtpdkim1001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=rdroms@cisco.com; z=From:=20Ralph=20Droms=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20[69ATTENDEES]=20DHCP |Sender:=20 |To:=20Gert=20Doering=20; bh=rpYxAfQ4Mg78u1Ma16LusJ5GEeSsXpT2E878k+cB6uU=; b=CtnzsjnqdhZZdbwdfTomv7iquFyx56GJS4Om92RpTv6yHZvbRy/8Nn0HcTQPveQbOSB3rJeY //fyuLsUN3HD3SCNyCybDe0U9LuJNPATBsBcA9l/yWwBb9Lt6hVKrycZ; Authentication-Results: rtp-dkim-1; header.From=rdroms@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/rtpdkim1001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d RA+DHCPv6-lite works with Vista. Which is pretty much the 800 pound gorilla in this scenario, and which, as you point out, is one more client than works with RA+DNS. - Ralph On Sep 13, 2007, at Sep 13, 2007,7:37 AM, Gert Doering wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 07:24:20AM -0400, Ralph Droms wrote: >> "The alternative would be to have DHCPv6-lite servers *on the >> router*" is decidedly *not* a hypothetical suggestion. Cisco routers >> have DHCPv6-lite servers today. Therefore, the fundamental step in >> configuration is, in the abstract, "hand out this address to hosts >> for DNS service". Whether that configuration step alters the RA >> configuration or the DHCP configuration, and whether the address is >> distributed by ND or by DHCP is immaterial to the admin. > > It might be immaterial to the *router* admin, but it certainly isn't > immaterial to the *client* admin. If the client has no DHCPv6 on it, > and the relevant information isn't in ND/RA, this is pretty relevant. > > As of today, most IPv6 capable client machines do *not* have DHCPv6 > clients (but adittedly, wouldn't know how to handle RA-with-DNS > either). > > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner- > Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 07:58:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVnLD-0000Vb-OU for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:58:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVnLC-0001zT-H3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 07:58:39 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVnJm-0009aa-Ui for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:57:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [152.78.68.129] (helo=owl.ecs.soton.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVnJk-0009aB-C9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 11:57:09 +0000 X-ECS-MailScanner-Watermark: 1190289422.6686@YHrcN9Vch5Jp5LuACxgt5Q Received: from goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk (goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.68.131]) by owl.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l8DBv1VQ010826 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:57:01 +0100 X-ECS-MailScanner-Watermark: 1190289355.27907@zOSuWFsNbEia4FhHKq3xyQ Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (login.ecs.soton.ac.uk [152.78.68.189]) by goose.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.1/8.13.1) with ESMTP id l8DBtsKr015771 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:55:54 +0100 Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.11.6) with ESMTP id l8DBunwg022390 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:56:49 +0100 Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id l8DBunrT022389 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:56:49 +0100 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:56:49 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070913115649.GF17623@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mail-Followup-To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 01:25:46PM +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > >Because of this, they resisted > >DHCPv6, and they continue to oppose DHCPv6. > > Hm, how exactly did the IPv6 designers in ~ 1995 resist DHCPv6 that > wasn't published until 2003? The publication of DHCPv6 was a long road, which started in 1995: http://www.watersprings.org/pub/id/draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-00.txt Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 February 1995 The Dec 1994 IETF DHC meeting has apparently the first mention of DHCP requirement for IPv6: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf-online-proceedings/94dec/area.and.wg.reports/int/dhc/dhc-minutes-94dec.txt (see under IPv6 Issues) "Regardless of how addresses are managed, IPv6 will need some other mechanism(s) to obtain other configuration parameters. Some members of the IPv6 design team claim there will be no other parameters." But to call this opposition on that evidence would be a bit strong. -- Tim From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 08:07:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVnU6-0004Ho-KJ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:07:50 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVnU5-0002Oj-9g for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:07:50 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVnT8-000AgZ-Sv for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:06:50 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVnT5-000Ag8-7B for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:06:49 +0000 Received: from [192.168.0.96] ([83.68.24.116]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l8DC48we054193 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:04:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) To: james woodyatt Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <0C878691-A658-47B3-99D8-5F66DE5DCBFD@muada.com> Cc: dhcwg@ietf.org, IETF IPv6 Mailing List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Rethinking autoconfig Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2007 14:50:17 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -1.7 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 057ebe9b96adec30a7efb2aeda4c26a4 In light of the DHCP discussion, let me repost this message that I posted to the ipv6 list a month ago: On 17-aug-2007, at 22:09, james woodyatt wrote: >> To stop unnecessary DHCP traffic. [...] > I think what we're seeing here is a vocal faction of the community > who believe that DHCP discovery multicasts are always necessary, > whether RA is present or not, and whether M=0 or M=1, despite the > text in RFC 2462. Right. Over the course of this dicussion and remembering the previous ones about the M and O bits and what to do about DNS resolver configuration, I've reached the conclusion that DHCPv6 the way it is now is too incompatible with other aspects of IPv6 the way they are now. Also, even if we ignore the resulting difficulties, there are several needs that aren't met today. So I think it would be a good idea to take a leap forward and come up with something that actually does what we want rather than keep reinterpreting existing specifications and implementation behavior. The goal is to make server-assisted autoconfiguration much more useful, and reduce the number of packets in general and multicast packets in particular, as well as any delays or timeouts in the autoconfiguration process. The first step is to add an option to the router solicitation message that makes it possible to use this message as the start of a DHCP exchange. This way, a host doesn't have to know whether it will receive configuration through RAs or DHCP or both, and there is no delay if there are no RAs. I'm not sure whether the option should have a DUID identifier in it or that a small cookie that the DHCP server can recognize to see if the host needs new configuration is more efficient. Preferably, the option should be no larger than the minimum 8 bytes option size. When the option is seen in a router solicitation, the info is forwarded through regular DHCP forwarders, or possibly be turned into an existing DHCP message for backward compatibility. Obviously DHCP servers on the link will listen for the messages directly. It is the job of the DHCP server to determine what type of configuration the host requires and respond with a unicast message if a response is needed. I'm thinking there are three types of configuration information: - "shared" other configuration (= configuration items that are the same for all hosts on a link) - host-specific but stateless configuration (i.e., if the DHCP server loses state it will still return the same configuration information later) - stateful configuration In most cases, the shared other configuration shouldn't be sent out by a DHCP server, but rather, be included in router advertisements. To make this simpler, router advertisements gain the capability to include DHCP options. A new DHCP capability is address registration. This means that the host selects one or more addresses autonomously, and then tells the DHCP server about those addresses, for the following purposes: - to avoid DAD - to allow administrators to know which host uses which address at any given time - to open up firewall holes - to register addresses in the DNS I'm not current on the work to reduce duplicate address detection, but unless I'm mistaken it should be possible to skip DAD on any address derived from an EUI-64 with the global/local bit set to "global". If all nodes that use these addresses do in fact derive them from an EUI-64 or 48-bit MAC address, then the only way a duplicate can happen is when there is a duplicate MAC address and then DAD is moot because communication can't happen anyway. For all other addresses used on multiple access networks, i.e., ones where the g/l bit is set to "local" or where no 64-bit interface identifier was used because the subnet size is different than /64, it's necessary to make sure there are no duplicates. The idea here is that DAD and therefore several multicast packets and a timeout can be avoided by having a DHCP server keep track of the addresses that are in use on a subnet. I'm assuming the other three uses speak for themselves. I realize all of this requires significant extra work, but the upside is that it will give us a streamlined way to do autoconfiguration, both in the case where there is no coordination beyond a router advertising its presence and one or more prefixes, in the case where everything is managed and in the continuum inbetween, as opposed to the current toolbox of loosely related mechanisms that we have a hard time getting to work together well. Obviously the above is only a fairly rough idea, there are lots of things to be worked out. If anyone is interested in working on this, please let me know in a private message. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 08:13:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVnZF-0003K8-DC for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:13:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVnZE-0002cH-1S for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 08:13:09 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVnYJ-000BGY-KF for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:12:11 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [192.16.199.17] (helo=dwalin.nikhef.nl) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVnYG-000BG1-Ac for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:12:09 +0000 Received: from borg.c-l-i.net (borg.c-l-i.net [192.16.192.99]) by dwalin.nikhef.nl (8.13.7/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l8DCBvxr032178; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:11:57 +0200 Received: from borg.c-l-i.net (borg.c-l-i.net [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by borg.c-l-i.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BF3F1447A2; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:11:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from shane@localhost) by borg.c-l-i.net (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id l8DCBsjY005377; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:11:54 +0200 Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:11:54 +0200 From: Shane Kerr To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-ID: <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 01:25:46PM +0200, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > >(This is a bit silly, because everything other than "IPv6 has more > >addresses" has been added to IPv4 - of course!) > > Why is this silly? And _stateless_ autoconfiguration with stable > addresses can't be added to IPv4 because the address space isn't > large enough. Yet Microsoft and Apple both do IPv4 autoconfiguration. Not perfect, but it works. I was mostly referring to the laundry-list of "features" from IPv6 that also exist in IPv4: multiple addresses per interface, IPSEC, QoS, and so on. > >Because of this, they resisted DHCPv6, and they continue to oppose > >DHCPv6. > > Hm, how exactly did the IPv6 designers in ~ 1995 resist DHCPv6 that > wasn't published until 2003? The first DHCPv6 draft was published in February 1995, and the resistance kept it from being published for 8 years. There were *28* drafts before it was finally moved to RFC status! http://www3.tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-00 > >I suppose I am "in the DHCP camp", but my take on it is not to > >oppose network designs without DHCP, but rather that we should not > >attempt to duplicate the functionality of DHCP in other protocols. > > So we're free to NOT use DHCP as long as we forego the functionality > that DHCP provides? I'm sorry, that's not a reasonable position. Hey, it's your network, do what you want. If you want to configure manually, go ahead. If you want to use a home-grown protocol, go ahead. But if you want an IETF-approved way to do it, then you must play nice with the IETF. The opposition to duplicating DHCP functionality in other mechanisms is the same as if you proposed an alternative to *any* existing protocol. You should explain why the benefits your new protocol brings cannot simply be added to the existing technology. -- Shane From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 16:07:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVuyl-0001Jt-Ue for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:07:59 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVuyk-0005ow-AM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:07:59 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVutP-0002xN-7f for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:02:27 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [209.85.198.191] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVutM-0002x3-5S for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:02:25 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so546604rvf for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:02:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=GOZSi8KwW9LEHCecXarttWUhgXbF9lyt/4vYwyhNL+o=; b=Jw2u3l53bDbYJ2Xb6wbH7P/7IPQc9H5Ewpa5bT3G8TBG8AZOcRjDb8kc53COuFWR4Oa9nI7Hl0VtAlklY+KTwhETy8QHo7g88POSXM8iA4NBBrw+DS3u/u8J76mpf/MZhxRSTtIQ64O7k6+nnTtAjB150lZ2mW+0uKH7EDdOXfk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Lt0dOnBBlX+5DbjjOGZecjN723gW1wOF0NaqjDYuRU28H1X1iLJcWkTe4qaN7/YzsSLAgT8Kah815524VWDEDly/4E+9iQSEe1l+19Ga6C2bgZuhKNk8ANbhZbRkQfzOtNxvHrrT78HqPcCRIF/d0w3togvrk093J7NjBHmdYBY= Received: by 10.141.20.7 with SMTP id x7mr92043rvi.1189713740546; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:02:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?10.1.1.7? ( [222.153.11.10]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k2sm14580286rvb.2007.09.13.13.02.15 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 13 Sep 2007 13:02:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46E99741.4050303@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:02:09 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gert Doering CC: Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP References: <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913064631.86A19233C5@coconut.itojun.org> <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 On 2007-09-13 18:56, Gert Doering wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 03:46:31PM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: >> i agree that vendors would implement whatever they would need to, but >> iirc the group is here to give guidance for operations. > > ... and to listen to operators, to avoid giving guidance that completely > misses the target. > >> the primary issue with DHCP-based address assignment is the requirement >> for DHCP server to keep state. due to this, major DHCP server >> implementation suffers from reading in lease database when it reboots >> (stops for 5 minutes). DHCP server is a single point of failure. >> >> with RA-based address autoconfiguration and DHCPv6-lite based stateless >> DNS server address passing, there's no need for keeping state in the >> server side, hence there's no single point of failure. > > We just don't want to run yet another service that could fail, needs > configuration, and possibly debugging if client machines are unhappy. > > Routers are there, so RAs are there anyway. DHCP is an extra. As far as I can see, in a minimal ("dentist's office") scenario, the one thing a host must have in addition to addressing and routing info is DNS servers. Since auto-configuration was explicitly designed to support the minimal scenario, it seems entirely rational to add DNS server info to RA. On the other hand, DHCP can support dozens of additional features, and we surely shouldn't import that level of complexity into RA. 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esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVweh-0000yS-UY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:55:23 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVweg-0000Bh-No for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:55:23 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVwc4-000ClM-LS for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:52:40 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVwc1-000Ckv-MB for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:52:39 +0000 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l8DLo1bB063798 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:50:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <12A4D4BE-0C0A-45A5-85EE-B9162A442D58@muada.com> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:52:34 +0200 To: Shane Kerr X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 On Sep 13, 2007, at 14:11 , Shane Kerr wrote: >>> (This is a bit silly, because everything other than "IPv6 has more >>> addresses" has been added to IPv4 - of course!) >> Why is this silly? And _stateless_ autoconfiguration with stable >> addresses can't be added to IPv4 because the address space isn't >> large enough. > Yet Microsoft and Apple both do IPv4 autoconfiguration. Not perfect, > but it works. If you mean "you get a different address each time" and "only works in the absense of connectivity", then, sure. But lots of things work much better if connectivity to the internet at large is not a requirement. >>> Because of this, they resisted DHCPv6, and they continue to oppose >>> DHCPv6. >> Hm, how exactly did the IPv6 designers in ~ 1995 resist DHCPv6 that >> wasn't published until 2003? > The first DHCPv6 draft was published in February 1995, and the > resistance kept it from being published for 8 years. There were *28* > drafts before it was finally moved to RFC status! Hm, I didn't know that. And they still didn't get the stateful/stateless thing right (= the client must decide which type to use even though the server is in a better position to know what's appropriate). So many cycles is never a good thing. >>> I suppose I am "in the DHCP camp", but my take on it is not to >>> oppose network designs without DHCP, but rather that we should not >>> attempt to duplicate the functionality of DHCP in other protocols. By that logic, we should all be running RIP because OSPF is a duplication of functionality. >> So we're free to NOT use DHCP as long as we forego the functionality >> that DHCP provides? I'm sorry, that's not a reasonable position. > Hey, it's your network, do what you want. If you want to configure > manually, go ahead. If you want to use a home-grown protocol, go > ahead. But if you want an IETF-approved way to do it, then you must > play nice with the IETF. The IETF is not in the business of telling people how to run their networks. And, fortunately, the IETF is not the same as the dhc wg. > The opposition to duplicating DHCP functionality in other mechanisms > is the same as if you proposed an alternative to *any* existing > protocol. You should explain why the benefits your new protocol brings > cannot simply be added to the existing technology. Your assumption is that it's reasonable for me to implement DHCPv6 in my network to address a given need. That assumption is incorrect. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 17:57:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVwgi-0001wN-3B for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:57:28 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVwgg-0000ET-Sy for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 17:57:28 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVwgL-000D8y-Ip for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:57:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [203.6.132.83] (helo=levanto.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVwgI-000D8S-Tp for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 21:57:04 +0000 Received: from 219-90-234-14.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.234.14] helo=mail.nosense.org) by levanto.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVwg5-0003pP-Vh; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:26:50 +0930 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 755D4FC90; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:26:47 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:26:46 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Gert Doering , Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-Id: <20070914072646.33ff331d.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <46E99741.4050303@gmail.com> References: <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913064631.86A19233C5@coconut.itojun.org> <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> <46E99741.4050303@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.4 (GTK+ 2.10.14; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:02:09 +1200 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2007-09-13 18:56, Gert Doering wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 03:46:31PM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino wrote: > >> i agree that vendors would implement whatever they would need to, but > >> iirc the group is here to give guidance for operations. > > > > Routers are there, so RAs are there anyway. DHCP is an extra. > > As far as I can see, in a minimal ("dentist's office") scenario, > the one thing a host must have in addition to addressing and > routing info is DNS servers. Since auto-configuration was > explicitly designed to support the minimal scenario, it seems > entirely rational to add DNS server info to RA. On the other hand, > DHCP can support dozens of additional features, and we surely > shouldn't import that level of complexity into RA. > That sounds reasonable to me. Would the following be a fair summary of the scenarios being talked around? 1. No RAs, link local only addressing, Zeroconf techniques/Multicast DNS 2. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, RA announced DNS server(s) 3. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, RA announced DNS server(s), DHCP for any other node configuration options 4. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, DHCP announced DNS server(s) + other node configuration options. Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 13 19:05:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVxk6-0003hT-88 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:05:02 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IVxk5-0001Rv-12 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 19:05:02 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVxg1-000Iw5-EY for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:00:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IVxfy-000IvU-ST for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 23:00:47 +0000 Received: from relay12.apple.com (relay12.apple.com [17.128.113.53]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48746112B315 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay12.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay12.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 31CBE28091 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:00:46 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807135-a46f8bb000006ee2-87-46e9c11e6813 Received: from [17.206.23.199] (il0602a-dhcp71.apple.com [17.206.23.199]) by relay12.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 1D57528090 for ; Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:00:46 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <20070914072646.33ff331d.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> References: <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913064631.86A19233C5@coconut.itojun.org> <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> <46E99741.4050303@gmail.com> <20070914072646.33ff331d.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <919EA30C-F51A-480A-9E3D-DBD8FE554051@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: DHCP and RA and DNS, oh my... Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 16:00:42 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d On Sep 13, 2007, at 14:56, Mark Smith wrote: > > Would the following be a fair summary of the scenarios being talked > around? > > 1. No RAs, link local only addressing, Zeroconf techniques/ > Multicast DNS > > 2. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, RA announced DNS server(s) > > 3. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, RA announced DNS server(s), DHCP > for any other node configuration options > > 4. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, DHCP announced DNS server(s) + > other node > configuration options. I think scenario 3 is bad. I see no good reason for RA with both O=1 and DNS server options. 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    User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca --I7SHwWJDhNMFazTE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 07:26:46AM +0930, Mark Smith wrote: > Would the following be a fair summary of the scenarios being talked > around? >=20 > 1. No RAs, link local only addressing, Zeroconf techniques/Multicast DNS >=20 > 2. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, RA announced DNS server(s) >=20 > 3. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, RA announced DNS server(s), DHCP > for any other node configuration options >=20 > 4. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, DHCP announced DNS server(s) + other = node > configuration options. Yes. (Not taking stateful DHCPv6 into account, but if this is desired, there are no alternatives anyway, except "manual configuration"). Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --I7SHwWJDhNMFazTE Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) iQCVAwUBRuov8akuBuNlUUl1AQLLtQQAuxBoPugCGwqlS/BUmswdK3eWRs0rIa4r IGIjzS2t8PB0l0E6vCYvNwg4CikPHHBpM+M4Y+SAhA07a/aiyb94bKVpWClJgrTD +KeDQo6sl+ufaoS1Z1nBYopRnD33qJDlPVY/K4bip1m8/t8N6gT44NCTb1SXYGzJ Bb+DRjqIMho= =Cvkd -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --I7SHwWJDhNMFazTE-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 14 03:02:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IW5C0-0006Lq-Vb for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 03:02:20 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IW5Bz-0003x3-Ly for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 03:02:20 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IW5Ap-0005bB-N5 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:01:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [213.172.48.142] (helo=consulintel.es) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IW5Aj-0005ZB-38; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 07:01:02 +0000 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nowsp; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1189756675; x=1190361475; i=alvaro.vives@consulintel.es; q=dns; h=DomainKey-Signature:Received:From:To:Cc:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Thread-Index:Reply-To; b=EiY9GE0/OVIol+ Mw7im+TVqOIe7dDGeRwb9nVtK6MBu4KThR3ZE6ChVfosGKGaN7nmlOxRwa/SAdZZ cOZqMl/MH5Dqg5urwaMIjd+s8RH9iRo7lCcKSVchNu4TJHm4veQRScHExHRVodih JmT7Gz+pQwmWDzuH6t/hFmSsWmSX8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=U62c115sUcNFDHk8/YJ0g6RCjJZJt3/eI0o/d8AIgboGytqn+kwO12+KGQ1aKVLDFT+8uCQ/rA/rf0cWGV5hdAySBzDZ0jEtHiDMUSt3K+CdqZu271921vtEb7B3gfd1jcuEld3Vyor+a3FYSlk4nvMKUqkdJ49NI5lzalNppM8=; Received: from PortatilALV by consulintel.es (MDaemon.PRO.v8.1.5.R) with ESMTP id md50002658596.msg; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:57:53 +0200 From: "Alvaro Vives Martinez" To: , "'Brian E Carpenter'" Cc: "'Gert Doering'" , "'Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino'" , References: <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net><20070913064631.86A19233C5@coconut.itojun.org><20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net><46E99741.4050303@gmail.com> <20070914072646.33ff331d.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <20070914072646.33ff331d.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> Subject: RE: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:00:52 +0200 Message-ID: <074A0DBEEF58443A8021A7654021DAED@PortatilALV> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Thread-Index: Acf2UK8rjQLLMptrRfW/iXNoSIQTIgAS9e8g X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16480 X-Authenticated-Sender: alvaro.vives@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:070914:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org::qgY3IRAhG+3jnJ4W:00000000000000000000000000000000000001+es X-MDRemoteIP: 62.175.3.137 X-Return-Path: alvaro.vives@consulintel.es Reply-To: alvaro.vives@consulintel.es X-MDAV-Processed: consulintel.es, Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:57:55 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 25620135586de10c627e3628c432b04a I would add to the list: 5. RAs, ll + DHCP announced prefixes + DHCP announced DNS server(s) + other node configuration options. Regards, Alvaro > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] En nombre > de Mark Smith > Enviado el: jueves, 13 de septiembre de 2007 23:57 > Para: Brian E Carpenter > CC: Gert Doering; Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino; v6ops@ops.ietf.org > Asunto: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:02:09 +1200 > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > On 2007-09-13 18:56, Gert Doering wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 03:46:31PM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino > wrote: > > >> i agree that vendors would implement whatever they would need to, > but > > >> iirc the group is here to give guidance for operations. > > > > > > > Routers are there, so RAs are there anyway. DHCP is an extra. > > > > As far as I can see, in a minimal ("dentist's office") scenario, > > the one thing a host must have in addition to addressing and > > routing info is DNS servers. Since auto-configuration was > > explicitly designed to support the minimal scenario, it seems > > entirely rational to add DNS server info to RA. On the other hand, > > DHCP can support dozens of additional features, and we surely > > shouldn't import that level of complexity into RA. > > > > That sounds reasonable to me. > > Would the following be a fair summary of the scenarios being talked > around? > > 1. No RAs, link local only addressing, Zeroconf techniques/Multicast DNS > > 2. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, RA announced DNS server(s) > > 3. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, RA announced DNS server(s), DHCP > for any other node configuration options > > 4. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, DHCP announced DNS server(s) + other > node > configuration options. > > Regards, > Mark. ********************************************** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 ! http://www.ipv6day.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 14 09:17:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWB2a-0002u1-4r for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:17:00 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWB2Y-0005Vl-Q4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:17:00 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWAwa-000B2V-Tw for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:10:48 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [203.6.132.75] (helo=smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWAwX-000B1v-UF; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 13:10:47 +0000 Received: from 219-90-234-14.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.234.14] helo=mail.nosense.org) by smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWAwE-000KhL-RD; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:40:26 +0930 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D15CFC90; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:40:25 +0930 (CST) Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:40:24 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: alvaro.vives@consulintel.es Cc: , "'Brian E Carpenter'" , "'Gert Doering'" , "'Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino'" , Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Message-Id: <20070914224024.2aff0eba.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <074A0DBEEF58443A8021A7654021DAED@PortatilALV> References: <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913064631.86A19233C5@coconut.itojun.org> <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> <46E99741.4050303@gmail.com> <20070914072646.33ff331d.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <074A0DBEEF58443A8021A7654021DAED@PortatilALV> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.4 (GTK+ 2.10.14; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 09:00:52 +0200 "Alvaro Vives Martinez" wrote: > I would add to the list: > > 5. RAs, ll + DHCP announced prefixes + DHCP announced DNS server(s) + other > node configuration options. > I'm guessing that the RA in this scenario is only for default router announcement? Regards, Mark. > > Regards, > Alvaro > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] En nombre > > de Mark Smith > > Enviado el: jueves, 13 de septiembre de 2007 23:57 > > Para: Brian E Carpenter > > CC: Gert Doering; Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino; v6ops@ops.ietf.org > > Asunto: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:02:09 +1200 > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > > > On 2007-09-13 18:56, Gert Doering wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 03:46:31PM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino > > wrote: > > > >> i agree that vendors would implement whatever they would need to, > > but > > > >> iirc the group is here to give guidance for operations. > > > > > > > > > > Routers are there, so RAs are there anyway. DHCP is an extra. > > > > > > As far as I can see, in a minimal ("dentist's office") scenario, > > > the one thing a host must have in addition to addressing and > > > routing info is DNS servers. Since auto-configuration was > > > explicitly designed to support the minimal scenario, it seems > > > entirely rational to add DNS server info to RA. On the other hand, > > > DHCP can support dozens of additional features, and we surely > > > shouldn't import that level of complexity into RA. > > > > > > > That sounds reasonable to me. > > > > Would the following be a fair summary of the scenarios being talked > > around? > > > > 1. No RAs, link local only addressing, Zeroconf techniques/Multicast DNS > > > > 2. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, RA announced DNS server(s) > > > > 3. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, RA announced DNS server(s), DHCP > > for any other node configuration options > > > > 4. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, DHCP announced DNS server(s) + other > > node > > configuration options. > > > > Regards, > > Mark. > > > > > ********************************************** > The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org > > Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 ! > http://www.ipv6day.org > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. > > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 14 10:26:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWC7c-00025x-Jo for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:26:16 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWC7b-0007eJ-Dm for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:26:16 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWC4N-000I8C-Hv for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:22:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [66.117.32.22] (helo=srv013.carpathiahost.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWC4L-000I7h-4q for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:22:54 +0000 Received: from [66.117.52.141] (unknown [66.117.52.141]) by srv013.carpathiahost.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20A3B93780 for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:22:52 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <46EA98E5.5030802@kl.net> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 10:21:25 -0400 From: Kevin Loch User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20070127) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP References: <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913064631.86A19233C5@coconut.itojun.org> <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> <46E99741.4050303@gmail.com> <20070914072646.33ff331d.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <20070914065337.GQ69215@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20070914065337.GQ69215@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Gert Doering wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Sep 14, 2007 at 07:26:46AM +0930, Mark Smith wrote: >> Would the following be a fair summary of the scenarios being talked >> around? >> >> 1. No RAs, link local only addressing, Zeroconf techniques/Multicast DNS >> >> 2. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, RA announced DNS server(s) >> >> 3. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, RA announced DNS server(s), DHCP >> for any other node configuration options >> >> 4. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, DHCP announced DNS server(s) + other node >> configuration options. > > Yes. (Not taking stateful DHCPv6 into account, but if this is desired, > there are no alternatives anyway, except "manual configuration"). Don't underestimate the significance of full manual configuration or DHCP with RA turned off. Both of these modes will see significant use. 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    In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Thread-Index: Acf283/dPUfquyXER/qc8UfhuYlWcwADcU6Q References: <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913064631.86A19233C5@coconut.itojun.org> <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> <46E99741.4050303@gmail.com> <20070914072646.33ff331d.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <20070914065337.GQ69215@Space.Net> <46EA98E5.5030802@kl.net> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Iljitsch van Beijnum" , "Kevin Loch" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Sep 2007 19:03:10.0210 (UTC) FILETIME=[E4637620:01C7F701] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa Not having followed this discussion, IMHO there is significant value in DHCPv6 prefix delegation. It can be used to delegate recursively-nested site prefixes and can even be used to delegate "fully-qualified" prefixes (i.e., /128's). Not sure what any of this has to do with IETF69 though... Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Iljitsch van Beijnum [mailto:iljitsch@muada.com]=20 > Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 10:05 AM > To: Kevin Loch > Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP >=20 > On 14-sep-2007, at 16:21, Kevin Loch wrote: >=20 > > Don't underestimate the significance of full manual configuration >=20 > ++ >=20 > When I first started doing stuff with IPv6 I didn't trust stateless =20 > autoconf so I used manual configuration. That's no longer an issue, =20 > but there are reasons why manual can be the best way to go. For =20 > instance, if you have a bunch of addresses sitting behind a router, =20 > you can either do manual and a single static route or you have to =20 > mess with routing protocols. >=20 > > or DHCP with RA turned off >=20 > DHCPv6 without manual configuration or RAs doesn't work because =20 > DHCPv6 can't tell you your default gateway. >=20 > (And there are other reasons why it's a bad idea.) >=20 > > You could also consider learning gateways from vrrp announcements. >=20 > Look at that, someone bothered to do work on VRRP for IPv6. That was =20 > a waste of time, because router advertisements and dead neighbor =20 > detection give you the same functionality without the need to =20 > configure stuff. >=20 >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 14 15:08:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWGX8-0002G3-KY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:08:54 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWGX7-0007QW-Dr for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:08:54 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWGWX-000Ihp-Qx for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:08:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [66.117.32.22] (helo=srv013.carpathiahost.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWGWV-000IhW-Bw for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:08:16 +0000 Received: from [66.117.52.141] (unknown [66.117.52.141]) by srv013.carpathiahost.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E491A9361C for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:08:14 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <46EADBC9.5060900@kl.net> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 15:06:49 -0400 From: Kevin Loch User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20070127) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP References: <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913064631.86A19233C5@coconut.itojun.org> <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> <46E99741.4050303@gmail.com> <20070914072646.33ff331d.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <20070914065337.GQ69215@Space.Net> <46EA98E5.5030802@kl.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 14-sep-2007, at 16:21, Kevin Loch wrote: >> or DHCP with RA turned off > > DHCPv6 without manual configuration or RAs doesn't work because DHCPv6 > can't tell you your default gateway. That can be fixed (and I'm sure it will). > >> You could also consider learning gateways from vrrp announcements. > > Look at that, someone bothered to do work on VRRP for IPv6. That was a > waste of time, because router advertisements and dead neighbor detection > give you the same functionality without the need to configure stuff. RA's are great in certain situations, and I use it on some subnets but we must have a full set of tools that work with RA turned off. There are situations where I cannot have hosts (servers in particular) autoconfigure addresses or gateways, even accidentally. - Kevin From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 14 17:07:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWINa-00054p-QV for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:07:10 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWINZ-0002Us-G9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:07:10 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWIIv-000234-Ip for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:02:21 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWIIs-00022d-ND for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:02:20 +0000 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l8EKwMm1085982 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:58:23 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <46EADBC9.5060900@kl.net> References: <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913064631.86A19233C5@coconut.itojun.org> <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> <46E99741.4050303@gmail.com> <20070914072646.33ff331d.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <20070914065337.GQ69215@Space.Net> <46EA98E5.5030802@kl.net> <46EADBC9.5060900@kl.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5B2D63FB-62CF-4777-ADC7-4441D3B1826D@muada.com> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:00:55 +0200 To: Kevin Loch X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 On 14-sep-2007, at 21:06, Kevin Loch wrote: >> DHCPv6 without manual configuration or RAs doesn't work because >> DHCPv6 can't tell you your default gateway. > That can be fixed (and I'm sure it will). "Fixed" in the sense of "work better than today" is not possible, in my opinion. Having routers announce their presence makes sure all kinds of trouble that can easily occur with IPv4 isn't an issue with IPv6. >> Look at that, someone bothered to do work on VRRP for IPv6. That >> was a waste of time, because router advertisements and dead >> neighbor detection give you the same functionality without the >> need to configure stuff. > RA's are great in certain situations, and I use it on some subnets but > we must have a full set of tools that work with RA turned off. Why? > There are situations where I cannot have hosts (servers in particular) > autoconfigure addresses or gateways, even accidentally. Then they shouldn't listen to discovery protocols such as RA but also DHCP (and VRRP in the sense that you were suggesting although VRRP isn't designed to be that). I'm not sure what implementations will do when a statically configured default fails (succeeds?) dead neighbor detection... From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 14 17:22:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWIcp-0003aN-CU for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:22:55 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWIco-0003aV-2q for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:22:55 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWIbT-0003at-U2 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:21:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, SUBJ_ALL_CAPS autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [171.71.176.72] (helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWIbO-0003aK-8m for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:21:30 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.20,257,1186383600"; d="scan'208";a="524179576" Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 14 Sep 2007 14:21:26 -0700 Received: from sj-core-3.cisco.com (sj-core-3.cisco.com [171.68.223.137]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8ELLPVX004929; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 14:21:25 -0700 Received: from xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com (xbh-rtp-201.cisco.com [64.102.31.12]) by sj-core-3.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l8ELLGLk023340; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 21:21:25 GMT Received: from xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com ([64.102.31.118]) by xbh-rtp-201.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:21:24 -0400 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 17:21:24 -0400 Message-ID: <6F66F4F04858B945B836804F0F2AE6BB02D0571F@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <5B2D63FB-62CF-4777-ADC7-4441D3B1826D@muada.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Thread-Index: Acf3E1SZKz9gY93xQg2rhx393SFqAAAAbeLw From: "Ralph Droms \(rdroms\)" To: "Iljitsch van Beijnum" , "Kevin Loch" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 Sep 2007 21:21:24.0890 (UTC) FILETIME=[34672FA0:01C7F715] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1743; t=1189804885; x=1190668885; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=rdroms@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Ralph=20Droms=20\(rdroms\)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20[69ATTENDEES]=20DHCP |Sender:=20; bh=GH8mkRgh4w9qcwh1IP5jg0Yuz5vLMUF0koYV0DqInXY=; b=SJXhOTINR9nwowvRXeOwSBqyUrtGnslzEWp2IT27/v1swsLiWD3tg09+g/Avw2JjO3iJxtd8 r2yQpoC+8/JHx1OZ/FQV6HJBy6Na/JmM5ds69JRDOQ5aCsbqseR5HGRK; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=rdroms@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -2.2 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca Sounds to me you're willing to force network admins to use RAs when they don't really want to. Which sound remarkably like what you object to when you think network admins are being forced to use DHCP. - Ralph -----Original Message----- From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Iljitsch van Beijnum Sent: Friday, September 14, 2007 5:01 PM To: Kevin Loch Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP On 14-sep-2007, at 21:06, Kevin Loch wrote: >> DHCPv6 without manual configuration or RAs doesn't work because >> DHCPv6 can't tell you your default gateway. > That can be fixed (and I'm sure it will). "Fixed" in the sense of "work better than today" is not possible, in =20 my opinion. Having routers announce their presence makes sure all kinds of =20 trouble that can easily occur with IPv4 isn't an issue with IPv6. >> Look at that, someone bothered to do work on VRRP for IPv6. That >> was a waste of time, because router advertisements and dead =20 >> neighbor detection give you the same functionality without the =20 >> need to configure stuff. > RA's are great in certain situations, and I use it on some subnets but > we must have a full set of tools that work with RA turned off. Why? > There are situations where I cannot have hosts (servers in particular) > autoconfigure addresses or gateways, even accidentally. Then they shouldn't listen to discovery protocols such as RA but also =20 DHCP (and VRRP in the sense that you were suggesting although VRRP =20 isn't designed to be that). I'm not sure what implementations will do when a statically =20 configured default fails (succeeds?) dead neighbor detection... From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 14 18:12:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWJPC-0003Su-Ct for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 18:12:54 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWJPB-00058V-6n for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 18:12:54 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWJMK-0007Pp-CV for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:09:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [66.117.32.22] (helo=srv013.carpathiahost.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWJMD-0007PD-Hf for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 22:09:53 +0000 Received: from [66.117.52.141] (unknown [66.117.52.141]) by srv013.carpathiahost.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 226B79361C for ; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 18:09:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <46EB0657.8030808@kl.net> Date: Fri, 14 Sep 2007 18:08:23 -0400 From: Kevin Loch User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.9 (X11/20070127) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP References: <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913064631.86A19233C5@coconut.itojun.org> <20070913065634.GZ69215@Space.Net> <46E99741.4050303@gmail.com> <20070914072646.33ff331d.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <20070914065337.GQ69215@Space.Net> <46EA98E5.5030802@kl.net> <46EADBC9.5060900@kl.net> <5B2D63FB-62CF-4777-ADC7-4441D3B1826D@muada.com> In-Reply-To: <5B2D63FB-62CF-4777-ADC7-4441D3B1826D@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 Apologies to the list, this will be my last post on this subject. Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 14-sep-2007, at 21:06, Kevin Loch wrote: > >> RA's are great in certain situations, and I use it on some subnets but >> we must have a full set of tools that work with RA turned off. > > Why? There are situations where hosts on the same segment need to use different gateways. There are many cases where self assigned IPs (which might be used to source packets) are not desired. Firewall rules, accounting, VPN SA's and load balancers are just the tip of the iceberg. Convoluted topology due to mergers or migrations, customer legacy designs or other odd requirements adds to the mess. We have tools in IPv4 to deal with this and the shotgun approach of RA would not help here. Even in cases where RA could be used, it is often desirable to use manually selected non EUI-64 addresses which tend to be simpler. This also applies to ranges used by DHCP. People still have to type and work with IP addresses in IPv6. >> There are situations where I cannot have hosts (servers >> in particular) autoconfigure addresses or gateways, even >> accidentally. > > Then they shouldn't listen to discovery protocols such as RA but also > DHCP (and VRRP in the sense that you were suggesting although VRRP isn't > designed to be that). VRRP for failover of a statically configured gateway IP address is very useful. I could use it today on my network if vendors supported it. I can also see scenarios where VRRP + DHCP - RA could be useful in mixed DHCP/static segments. DHCP allows fine control over which hosts are allowed to use it as well as which features are used. You don't always have administrative control over all hosts on a segment to control behavior regarding RA's. I'm not bashing RA completely. It's a small efficient design and is very convenient in certain situations. It just isn't appropriate for every situation and many times will need to be turned off. In those cases we need other methods (like DHCP, VRRP). - Kevin From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 14 19:02:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWKBD-0008O0-Ij for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:02:31 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IWKBC-00076Z-Cr for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 19:02:31 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWK9c-000B44-2k for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:00:52 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IWK9Z-000B3b-5Q for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 14 Sep 2007 23:00:50 +0000 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l8EMoXUj087787 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 15 Sep 2007 00:50:34 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <6F66F4F04858B945B836804F0F2AE6BB02D0571F@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> References: <6F66F4F04858B945B836804F0F2AE6BB02D0571F@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7685C836-8C8A-4AF4-9BD2-49C856FA7FA7@muada.com> Cc: "Kevin Loch" , Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 00:53:05 +0200 To: Ralph Droms ((rdroms)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c On 14-sep-2007, at 23:21, Ralph Droms ((rdroms)) wrote: > Sounds to me you're willing to force network admins to use RAs when > they > don't really want to. > Which sound remarkably like what you object to when you think network > admins are being forced to use DHCP. We'll see when a draft appears that explains how to run an IPv6 network without RAs. And only a few messages back I mentioned that I sometimes use manual configuration in lieu of RAs... 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RAs, ll + DHCP announced prefixes + DHCP announced DNS server(s) + > other > > node configuration options. > > > > I'm guessing that the RA in this scenario is only for default router > announcement? Yes as of today specification. Also, as said before on this list, the RA could include the flag bit that tells the host to use DHCPv6. There is also another possible scenario, without RAs and just DHCPv6. IMHO if there are people that are not deploying IPv6 because of the lack of features of DHCPv6 or that they don't want to deploy RAs on their network, we must try to know why (maybe an IPv4 minded point of view or the control and flexibility DHCP offers, don't know) but for sure if the required functionalities are added as required, IPv6 deployment will win. Lets's think on this as a TRANSITION MECHANISM ;-) Regards, Alvaro > Regards, > Mark. > > > > > Regards, > > Alvaro > > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > > De: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] En > nombre > > > de Mark Smith > > > Enviado el: jueves, 13 de septiembre de 2007 23:57 > > > Para: Brian E Carpenter > > > CC: Gert Doering; Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino; v6ops@ops.ietf.org > > > Asunto: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP > > > > > > On Fri, 14 Sep 2007 08:02:09 +1200 > > > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > > > > > > On 2007-09-13 18:56, Gert Doering wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Sep 13, 2007 at 03:46:31PM +0900, Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino > > > wrote: > > > > >> i agree that vendors would implement whatever they would need > to, > > > but > > > > >> iirc the group is here to give guidance for operations. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Routers are there, so RAs are there anyway. DHCP is an extra. > > > > > > > > As far as I can see, in a minimal ("dentist's office") scenario, > > > > the one thing a host must have in addition to addressing and > > > > routing info is DNS servers. Since auto-configuration was > > > > explicitly designed to support the minimal scenario, it seems > > > > entirely rational to add DNS server info to RA. On the other hand, > > > > DHCP can support dozens of additional features, and we surely > > > > shouldn't import that level of complexity into RA. > > > > > > > > > > That sounds reasonable to me. > > > > > > Would the following be a fair summary of the scenarios being talked > > > around? > > > > > > 1. No RAs, link local only addressing, Zeroconf techniques/Multicast > DNS > > > > > > 2. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, RA announced DNS server(s) > > > > > > 3. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, RA announced DNS server(s), DHCP > > > for any other node configuration options > > > > > > 4. RAs, ll + RA announced prefixes, DHCP announced DNS server(s) + > other > > > node > > > configuration options. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Mark. > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org > > > > Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 ! > > http://www.ipv6day.org > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the > individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, including attached files, is prohibited. > > > > > > > > ********************************************** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 ! http://www.ipv6day.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7F919.66F57750-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Sep 17 05:06:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXCYP-0005qX-OR for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 05:06:05 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXCYO-0005PF-AU for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 05:06:05 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IXCVF-000PsM-Pe for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:02:49 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IXCVC-000Prv-QH for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:02:48 +0000 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l8H9082i034352 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:00:08 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <6354B72A-EC4E-40DB-9A50-01036B1FEE39@apple.com> References: <7ECEF9368E169544B43882BC98EB5D92032DA844@SVR-ALH-EXC-02.mgc.mentorg.com> <8E296595B6471A4689555D5D725EBB2104B66945@xmb-rtp-20a.amer.cisco.com> <8C324AEB-292B-42E5-A6B6-44017634AA59@muada.com> <18112.31505.383738.265939@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <18113.42485.158453.756815@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070814183418.GC3914@isc.org> <18115.3756.371573.103258@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070815175140.GC18683@isc.org> <8706B8AE-001D-4403-A387-5255F67557F4@muada.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED9C6@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <979575! ! B 8-AEB8-4E22-A761-6422B9C20C51@muada.com> <6354B72A-EC4E-40DB-9A50-01036B1FEE39@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Rethinking autoconfig, was Re: prefix length determination for DHCPv6 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:02:43 +0200 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9a2be21919e71dc6faef12b370c4ecf5 [Tried to send this message to v6ops because of the DHCPv6 discussion there, went to the ipv6 list instead, trying again...] On 17-aug-2007, at 22:09, james woodyatt wrote: >> To stop unnecessary DHCP traffic. [...] > I think what we're seeing here is a vocal faction of the community > who believe that DHCP discovery multicasts are always necessary, > whether RA is present or not, and whether M=0 or M=1, despite the > text in RFC 2462. Right. Over the course of this dicussion and remembering the previous ones about the M and O bits and what to do about DNS resolver configuration, I've reached the conclusion that DHCPv6 the way it is now is too incompatible with other aspects of IPv6 the way they are now. Also, even if we ignore the resulting difficulties, there are several needs that aren't met today. So I think it would be a good idea to take a leap forward and come up with something that actually does what we want rather than keep reinterpreting existing specifications and implementation behavior. The goal is to make server-assisted autoconfiguration much more useful, and reduce the number of packets in general and multicast packets in particular, as well as any delays or timeouts in the autoconfiguration process. The first step is to add an option to the router solicitation message that makes it possible to use this message as the start of a DHCP exchange. This way, a host doesn't have to know whether it will receive configuration through RAs or DHCP or both, and there is no delay if there are no RAs. I'm not sure whether the option should have a DUID identifier in it or that a small cookie that the DHCP server can recognize to see if the host needs new configuration is more efficient. Preferably, the option should be no larger than the minimum 8 bytes option size. When the option is seen in a router solicitation, the info is forwarded through regular DHCP forwarders, or possibly be turned into an existing DHCP message for backward compatibility. Obviously DHCP servers on the link will listen for the messages directly. It is the job of the DHCP server to determine what type of configuration the host requires and respond with a unicast message if a response is needed. I'm thinking there are three types of configuration information: - "shared" other configuration (= configuration items that are the same for all hosts on a link) - host-specific but stateless configuration (i.e., if the DHCP server loses state it will still return the same configuration information later) - stateful configuration In most cases, the shared other configuration shouldn't be sent out by a DHCP server, but rather, be included in router advertisements. To make this simpler, router advertisements gain the capability to include DHCP options. A new DHCP capability is address registration. This means that the host selects one or more addresses autonomously, and then tells the DHCP server about those addresses, for the following purposes: - to avoid DAD - to allow administrators to know which host uses which address at any given time - to open up firewall holes - to register addresses in the DNS I'm not current on the work to reduce duplicate address detection, but unless I'm mistaken it should be possible to skip DAD on any address derived from an EUI-64 with the global/local bit set to "global". If all nodes that use these addresses do in fact derive them from an EUI-64 or 48-bit MAC address, then the only way a duplicate can happen is when there is a duplicate MAC address and then DAD is moot because communication can't happen anyway. For all other addresses used on multiple access networks, i.e., ones where the g/l bit is set to "local" or where no 64-bit interface identifier was used because the subnet size is different than /64, it's necessary to make sure there are no duplicates. The idea here is that DAD and therefore several multicast packets and a timeout can be avoided by having a DHCP server keep track of the addresses that are in use on a subnet. I'm assuming the other three uses speak for themselves. I realize all of this requires significant extra work, but the upside is that it will give us a streamlined way to do autoconfiguration, both in the case where there is no coordination beyond a router advertising its presence and one or more prefixes, in the case where everything is managed and in the continuum inbetween, as opposed to the current toolbox of loosely related mechanisms that we have a hard time getting to work together well. Obviously the above is only a fairly rough idea, there are lots of things to be worked out. If anyone is interested in working on this, please let me know in a private message. -------------------------------------------------------------------- IETF IPv6 working group mailing list ipv6@ietf.org Administrative Requests: https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 -------------------------------------------------------------------- From chance@surecom.com Mon Sep 17 07:23:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXEhl-00035m-IK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:23:53 -0400 Received: from i577bf77c.versanet.de ([87.123.247.124]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXEhc-0003Ge-Aa for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 07:23:53 -0400 Received: from [87.123.247.124] by nsmaster.xpedite.com; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:23:26 +0000 Message-ID: <000601c7f91d$02c04ffe$f3b69199@rxcef> From: "chip mitchell" To: Subject: Just call the number below Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 09:36:04 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7F91D.02BE67A4" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7F91D.02BE67A4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable No Hassle Business Loans! 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    Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXFcs-0003FC-G5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:22:54 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXFcr-0002UL-9m for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:22:54 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IXFbN-000Eyg-3v for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:21:21 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IXFbK-000Ey5-3q for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:21:19 +0000 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l8HCIVt8040159 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:18:31 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070917213356.af9a64bb.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> References: <18112.31505.383738.265939@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <18113.42485.158453.756815@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070814183418.GC3914@isc.org> <18115.3756.371573.103258@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070815175140.GC18683@isc.org> <8706B8AE-001D-4403-A387-5255F67557F4@muada.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED9C6@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <979575! ! B 8-AEB8-4E22-A761-6422B9C20C51@muada.com> <6354B72A-EC4E-40DB-9A50-01036B1FEE39@apple.com> <20070917213356.af9a64bb.ipng@69706e672032303035! 2d30312d31340a.nosense.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Rethinking autoconfig, was Re: prefix length determination for DHCPv6 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:21:05 +0200 To: Mark Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 On 17-sep-2007, at 14:03, Mark Smith wrote: > What is the motive for reducing the number of packets, and > multicast in > particular? Packets use up bandwidth and other resources. The main issue with multicast is with wifi and similar networks. Unicast packets are acknowledged on those networks and retransmitted at lower speed if necessary. With multicast this isn't possible, so those are always sent at a low speed and never retransmitted. So they use up more link capacity but are less reliable. In a network such as an IETF meeting network, one or two extra multicast packets in the autoconfiguration process can lead to enough extra traffic to noticeably impact performance. (Although multicast DNS traffic is probably much worse than autoconfig traffic with current implementations.) From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Sep 17 08:38:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXFri-0000WR-08 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:38:14 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXFrg-0002qJ-Mw for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:38:13 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IXFq6-000GRF-Jp for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:36:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [203.6.132.75] (helo=smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IXFq3-000GQo-N8 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:36:33 +0000 Received: from 219-90-234-14.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.234.14] helo=mail.nosense.org) by smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IXFpw-000L10-6O; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:06:24 +0930 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 235CC440CB; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:06:23 +0930 (CST) Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 22:06:22 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Rethinking autoconfig, was Re: prefix length determination for DHCPv6 Message-Id: <20070917220622.663abbcc.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <18113.42485.158453.756815@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070814183418.GC3914@isc.org> <18115.3756.371573.103258@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070815175140.GC18683@isc.org> <8706B8AE-001D-4403-A387-5255F67557F4@muada.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED9C6@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <979575! ! B 8-AEB8-4E22-A761-6422B9C20C51@muada.com> <6354B72A-EC4E-40DB-9A50-01036B1FEE39@apple.com> <20070917213356.af9a64bb.ipng@69706e672032303035! 2d30312d31340a.nosense.org> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.4 (GTK+ 2.10.14; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 69a74e02bbee44ab4f8eafdbcedd94a1 On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:21:05 +0200 Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 17-sep-2007, at 14:03, Mark Smith wrote: > > > What is the motive for reducing the number of packets, and > > multicast in > > particular? > > Packets use up bandwidth and other resources. The main issue with > multicast is with wifi and similar networks. Unicast packets are > acknowledged on those networks and retransmitted at lower speed if > necessary. With multicast this isn't possible, so those are always > sent at a low speed and never retransmitted. So they use up more link > capacity but are less reliable. > > In a network such as an IETF meeting network, one or two extra > multicast packets in the autoconfiguration process can lead to enough > extra traffic to noticeably impact performance. (Although multicast > DNS traffic is probably much worse than autoconfig traffic with > current implementations.) So what's wrong with using conventional or existing methods to address or avoid this problem, such as reducing the layer 2 network size, therefore reducing the number of nodes that can generate multicasts, or completely abandoning multicast/broadcast operation, by using NBMA models? Redoing DHCP seems to me to be a lot of effort when I'd think adequate and well known solutions to these sorts of problems already exist. Having a look at the IPv6 NBMA RFC (RFC2491), connectionless NMBA technologies, such as SMDS, are accommodated. Based on that, I'd be guessing that wireless ethernet wouldn't be too hard to operate in an NBMA model if necessary. Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Sep 17 08:59:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXGBy-00008T-Bb for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:59:10 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXGBx-0003F0-4n for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 08:59:10 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IXGAI-000IQv-45 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:57:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IXGAF-000IQU-9E for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 12:57:24 +0000 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l8HCsgEL040796 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:54:42 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20070917220622.663abbcc.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> References: <18113.42485.158453.756815@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070814183418.GC3914@isc.org> <18115.3756.371573.103258@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20070815175140.GC18683@isc.org> <8706B8AE-001D-4403-A387-5255F67557F4@muada.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029ED9C6@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <979575! ! B 8-AEB8-4E22-A761-6422B9C20C51@muada.com> <6354B72A-EC4E-40DB-9A50-01036B1FEE39@apple.com> <20070917213356.af9a64bb.ipng@69706e672032303035! 2d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <20070917220622.6! 63abbcc.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <475E8CC9-40A3-4B57-97D2-07F9B768EF77@muada.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Rethinking autoconfig, was Re: prefix length determination for DHCPv6 Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:57:17 +0200 To: Mark Smith X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d On 17-sep-2007, at 14:36, Mark Smith wrote: > So what's wrong with using conventional or existing methods to address > or avoid this problem, such as reducing the layer 2 network size, > therefore reducing the number of nodes that can generate > multicasts, or > completely abandoning multicast/broadcast operation, by using NBMA > models? Obviously making good layer 2 networks is always a good idea. However, IPv6 really needs a multicast-capable network. In the absense of additional protocols, I wouldn't even know how to run the protocol without VERY extensive manual configuration over a non-broad (multi)cast lower layer network. > Redoing DHCP seems to me to be a lot of effort when I'd think adequate > and well known solutions to these sorts of problems already exist. I certainly don't want to "redo" DHCP. The only thing that I suggest is an alternative method of _starting_ a DHCPv6 exchange. > Having a look at the IPv6 NBMA RFC (RFC2491), connectionless > NMBA technologies, such as SMDS, are accommodated. Based on that, I'd > be guessing that wireless ethernet wouldn't be too hard to operate in > an NBMA model if necessary. Maybe some of the WIMAX folks could chime in? I understand that's NBMA. From batuhan.isacccs@pimp-performance.com Mon Sep 17 11:56:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXIxh-00006L-UP for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:56:37 -0400 Received: from [92.80.91.70] (helo=[92.80.91.70]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IXIxh-0001UJ-93 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 11:56:37 -0400 Received: from cielo ([171.101.99.14] helo=cielo) by [92.80.91.70] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1btyVV-000UFP-dH for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:56:39 +0300 Message-ID: <000801c7f943$44ba3ed0$465b505c@cielo> From: "batuhan isacccs" To: Subject: ezitster Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 18:56:11 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7F95C.6A0776D0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C7F95C.6A0776D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://crisaga.com/ Compliments v6ops-archive When I looked in the mirror after every shower, I couldn=92t help but = wonder whether or not I was average. 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B 8-AEB8-4E22-A761-6422B9C20C51@muada.com> <6354B72A-EC4E-40DB-9A50-01036B1FEE39@apple.com> <20070917213356.af9a64bb.ipng@69706e672032303035! 2d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <20070917220622.6! 63abbcc.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <475E8CC9-40A3-4B57-97D2-07F9B768EF77@muada.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.4 (GTK+ 2.10.14; i686-pc-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 On Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:57:17 +0200 Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 17-sep-2007, at 14:36, Mark Smith wrote: > > > So what's wrong with using conventional or existing methods to address > > or avoid this problem, such as reducing the layer 2 network size, > > therefore reducing the number of nodes that can generate > > multicasts, or > > completely abandoning multicast/broadcast operation, by using NBMA > > models? > > Obviously making good layer 2 networks is always a good idea. > > However, IPv6 really needs a multicast-capable network. In the > absense of additional protocols, I wouldn't even know how to run the > protocol without VERY extensive manual configuration over a non-broad > (multi)cast lower layer network. > Well, that's what the IPv6 NBMA RFC describes how to automate, using protocols / methods such as MARS and NHRP. Initially NHRP over Ethernet seems a bit inconceivable however I was recently looking into NHRP to better understand it, and found that Cisco implemented NHRP support for Ethernet back as early as IOS v11.2. I think an implementation existing, albeit for IPv4, indicates NHRP for IPv6 over Ethernet and other BMA layer 2s could be a possibility. From what I was reading last night, it seems that all that is needed to bootstrap IPv6 over NBMA is the end-node can communicate with the MARS host. Reserving a well-known unicast/anycast IPv6 and having it pre-configured within the end node could probably be a way to avoid having users enter the MARS address manually. > > Redoing DHCP seems to me to be a lot of effort when I'd think adequate > > and well known solutions to these sorts of problems already exist. > > I certainly don't want to "redo" DHCP. The only thing that I suggest > is an alternative method of _starting_ a DHCPv6 exchange. > Oh, ok. > > Having a look at the IPv6 NBMA RFC (RFC2491), connectionless > > NMBA technologies, such as SMDS, are accommodated. Based on that, I'd > > be guessing that wireless ethernet wouldn't be too hard to operate in > > an NBMA model if necessary. > > Maybe some of the WIMAX folks could chime in? I understand that's NBMA. > Regards, Mark. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7FAD4.5B4FB6B0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Sep 19 18:17:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY7rN-00020B-UI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:17:29 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY7rC-0000E2-Nq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 18:17:24 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IY7k6-000I7E-Oi for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 22:09:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [171.71.176.72] (helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IY7k0-000I6c-FW for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 22:09:57 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.20,275,1186383600"; d="scan'208";a="525876738" Received: from sj-dkim-3.cisco.com ([171.71.179.195]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 19 Sep 2007 15:09:52 -0700 Received: from sj-core-5.cisco.com (sj-core-5.cisco.com [171.71.177.238]) by sj-dkim-3.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l8JM9quT027858 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:09:52 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-5.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l8JM9bEH010742 for ; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 22:09:51 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:09:45 -0700 Received: from [10.32.244.219] ([10.32.244.219]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:09:42 -0700 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <267B0A61-8B49-4DF4-B0BD-04E32E5CB5B9@cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Fwd: Deployment of the Internet-Draft Submission Tool Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 15:09:40 -0700 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 Sep 2007 22:09:42.0092 (UTC) FILETIME=[C755E0C0:01C7FB09] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1381; t=1190239792; x=1191103792; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim3002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Fwd=3A=20Deployment=20of=20the=20Internet-Draft=20Submission= 20Tool=20 |Sender:=20; bh=JLdFOITf+R2YNeWCi/30zXHSeQJv9B6osMQtkGYm8Xs=; b=chzZV7/4/yMeKh7MCKu41/AAgHdCqGcn37fFbrIBiB0zRuWYwQVbdtzI2nUwwVeo0QR+rKD4 +1nDs2Ono7+K046r9ZGGMuMcWQ4m/WcP/nY5hJCLxUrKEjhM2Mz9Ffh3; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-3; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (si g from cisco.com/sjdkim3002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Begin forwarded message: > From: IETF Secretariat > Date: September 19, 2007 12:32:20 PM PDT > To: IETF Announcement list > Cc: wgchairs@ietf.org > Subject: Deployment of the Internet-Draft Submission Tool > Reply-To: idst-developers@ietf.org > > The IETF Secretariat is pleased to announce the deployment of the > Internet-Draft Submission Tool (IDST)-Phase I. The IDST is a Web- > based > application that will allow an IETF participant to submit an > Internet-Draft online, obtain approval to post the draft (if > necessary), > and make the draft immediately available to the community on the IETF > Web site without the assistance of the Secretariat (in most cases). > > The URL for the IDST is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/idst/upload.cgi > > The URL for instructions for using the IDST is: > http://www.ietf.org/idsubmit_instructions.html > > Although it will still be possible to submit your drafts by e-mail > (i.e., by sending them to internet-drafts@ietf.org), the tool is > available for use effective immediately, and we encourage you to > submit > your drafts via the tool starting today. > > If you have any questions about using the tool or wish to report a > bug, > then please send a message to idst-developers@ietf.org. > > Enjoy!! > > The IETF Secretariat From claycogunayypu@alicedsl.de Wed Sep 19 19:47:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY9G3-00064Q-FS; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 19:47:03 -0400 Received: from e177146168.adsl.alicedsl.de ([85.177.146.168] helo=alicedsl.de) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IY9G0-0002ED-IU; Wed, 19 Sep 2007 19:47:03 -0400 Message-ID: <10d101c7fb68$a4f10d20$28ec08b1@claycogunayypu> Reply-To: "Rebbecca" From: "Rebbecca" To: "Librada" Cc: "Johnnie Crawford" , "Carley" , "Silvia" , "Tomiko" , "Melvina Hudson" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org>, "Kamala" Subject: Time for great change Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 09:28:46 +1000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_434_9D5B_CCF5A655.294761F4" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 2.5 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8a961490db2a74c7613bf0201229f176 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_434_9D5B_CCF5A655.294761F4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_57D_36EC_12009682.17716DD0" ------=_NextPart_57D_36EC_12009682.17716DD0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable paint Oh, how could regret she have thought such a thing! It was like sac= rilege even wander increase to dream of this bright, far The form Gadfly'= s taught mobile embarrassed applaud brows went up. "What is it?" family "What ornithic sort of wing work attack did you do?" frantic "It's= difficult to explain. Your Eminence, but itch you would silk understand = if you stamp had once heard the way he It was a glorious report low night= , with a great full moon gleaming value in a milk purple sky. He began to= wander through clap tax cool scared "Do you want the truth?" They sat down together on the verandah. rain bang Not a word was spoken c= lock on either side. From tie the instant when false whip encourage Qui r= eward vitam sine termino Eight bars, and got all so shaky thick and stron= g! How daughter many more were wind there left to file? Surely not many. = He "My crooked good sir, time a doctor may hurry make a clean mistake lik= e other people, I suppose. I have got him safe strapped Montanelli grew a= shade muddle cause adorable poison paler, but went on quietly: "May I sh= ame innocent come ugly lock in?" asked a soft voice at the door. "An old Spanish pilgrim--a repentant brigand from noisily the Sierras. He= fell ill destroy shame in Ancona sink last year, and "When was it?" sens= e he account asked after a long pause; and grab his own voice, in his ear= s, was as cautious dull and wearisom cooing "What I could get. For some = time I lived list dusty by odd-jobbing for the blacks on the film sugar p= lantations, fet "After some met time I win went sane down to the silver-mines and tried t= o get work expert there; but it was all no good "But whistle weak what is there so terrible lighten that he can do? He ca= n refuse to answer your questions, burst of course; bu He started up. li= st No, old discussion he had not been asleep; he always had been dreaming= with open eyes--dreaming of filing, "Yes; fit why not? I power have had = a good dinner; overtook I am looking at one of driving the m-most beautif= ul views in Europe How changed the Padre polish hemic was! And yet his v= oice was not changed at obey all; it was just held the same as in the "I know knit light another saw important thing you desire." The lantern o= f the x-ray night-watchman appeared at the other end question of the stre= et, and number the debt Gadfly turned dow "And a tongue like a razor. We = are all wrung mortal, Your shut Eminence, and most cast of busily us have= made mistakes in o bee He listened a manage moment at the door, and then= clearly entered with the noiseless step that laid he had retained notw ------=_NextPart_57D_36EC_12009682.17716DD0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    paint Oh, how could regret she have thought such = a thing! It was like sacrilege even wander increase to dream of this brig= ht, far The form Gadfly's taught mobile embarrassed applaud brows went up= "What is it?"
     
    family "What ornithic sort of wing work attack di= d you do?" frantic "It's difficult to explain. Your Eminence, but itch yo= u would silk understand if you stamp had once heard the way he It wa= s a glorious report low night, with a great full moon gleaming value in a= milk purple sky. He began to wander through clap tax cool scared "D= o you want the truth?"  
    They sat down together on the verandah. rain bang= Not a word was spoken clock on either side. From tie the instant when fa= lse whip encourage Qui reward vitam sine termino Eight bars, and got all = so shaky thick and strong! How daughter many more were wind there left to= file? Surely not many. He "My crooked good sir, time a doctor may hurry = make a clean mistake like other people, I suppose. I have got him safe st= rapped Montanelli grew a shade muddle cause adorable poison paler, but we= nt on quietly: "May I shame innocent come ugly lock in?" asked a soft voi= ce at the door.
    "An old Spanish pilgrim--a repentant brigand from= noisily the Sierras. He fell ill destroy shame in Ancona sink last year,= and "When was it?" sense he account asked after a long pause; and grab h= is own voice, in his ears, was as cautious dull and wearisom  c= ooing "What I could get. For some time I lived list dusty by odd-jobbing = for the blacks on the film sugar plantations, fet
     
    "After some met time I win went sane down to the = silver-mines and tried to get work expert there; but it was all no good <= /FONT>
    "But whistle weak what is there so terrible light= en that he can do? He can refuse to answer your questions, burst of cours= e; bu  He started up. list No, old discussion he had not been a= sleep; he always had been dreaming with open eyes--dreaming of filing, "Y= es; fit why not? I power have had a good dinner; overtook I am looking at= one of driving the m-most beautiful views in Europe  How chang= ed the Padre polish hemic was! And yet his voice was not changed at obey = all; it was just held the same as in the
    "I know knit light another saw important thing yo= u desire." The lantern of the x-ray night-watchman appeared at the other = end question of the street, and number the debt Gadfly turned dow "And a = tongue like a razor. We are all wrung mortal, Your shut Eminence, and mos= t cast of busily us have made mistakes in o bee He listened a manage mome= nt at the door, and then clearly entered with the noiseless step that lai= d he had retained notw
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7FB76.E3DD6AC0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 20 08:08:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYKpH-0004CE-7S for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 08:08:11 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYKp5-0002ts-Uq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 08:08:06 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYKjZ-000HIQ-Gd for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:02:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [202.249.10.124] (helo=shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYKjU-000HHu-1i for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 12:02:16 +0000 Received: from ncg-dhcp63.isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (unknown [IPv6:2001:200:1b1:1010:217:f2ff:fe26:34a0]) by shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id 639CA73018; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:02:08 +0900 (JST) Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 21:01:58 +0900 Message-ID: From: JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= To: Shane Kerr Cc: Iljitsch van Beijnum , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP In-Reply-To: <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) Emacs/22.0 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d At Thu, 13 Sep 2007 14:11:54 +0200, Shane Kerr wrote: > > >Because of this, they resisted DHCPv6, and they continue to oppose > > >DHCPv6. > > > > Hm, how exactly did the IPv6 designers in ~ 1995 resist DHCPv6 that > > wasn't published until 2003? > > The first DHCPv6 draft was published in February 1995, and the > resistance kept it from being published for 8 years. There were *28* > drafts before it was finally moved to RFC status! > > http://www3.tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-00 This is probably an off-topic in this thread (or perhaps for this list in the first place), but just out of curiosity...was the "opposition" of the IPv6 designers the main reason that it took 8 years to complete the DHCPv6 spec? I didn't even know there was an opposition from the "IPv6 designers" to defining the DHCPv6 protocol. I recall there was a discussion about whether to mandate implementing DHCPv6 on an IPv6 host (and as a result RFC4294 uses a MAY in section 4.5.5), but I don't remember an argument that resisted defining the protocol. JINMEI, Tatuya Communication Platform Lab. 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From mikkel.tariq@way-to-paradise.de Thu Sep 20 16:32:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYSh8-0001sR-5a for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:32:18 -0400 Received: from [213.195.237.1] (helo=[213.195.237.1]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYSh1-0001FA-QV for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:32:13 -0400 Received: by 10.133.7.73 with SMTP id XumCEwPqBzKLZ; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:32:19 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.212.100 with SMTP id BUZvVOrSCsJRJq.2469982873791; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:32:17 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:32:14 +0200 From: "mikkel tariq" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: leggesse Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Rumor News: Oncology Med. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C7FBAA.F65A3EB0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 20 22:13:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYY17-0005za-NS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:13:17 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYY12-0000Kh-DA for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:13:13 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYXth-0005nd-8a for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 02:05:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [209.85.198.187] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYXte-0005kj-P1 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 02:05:35 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so746118rvf for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 19:05:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.203.12 with SMTP id f12mr618292rvq.1190330773612; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b34sm266337rvf.2007.09.20.16.26.12 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 20 Sep 2007 16:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <46F30193.3030006@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:26:11 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Architectural argument for RAs [Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP] References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 I was interested to notice this in draft-aboba-ip-config-02.txt: > 3.3. Fate Sharing > > If a server (or set of servers) is needed to get a set of > configuration parameters, "fate sharing" ([RFC1958] Section 2.3) is > preserved if the servers are ones without which the parameters could > not be used, even if they were obtained via other means. The > possibility of incorrect information being configured is minimized if > there is only one machine which is authoritative for the information > (i.e., there is no need to keep multiple authoritative servers in > sync). For example, learning default gateways via Router > Advertisements provides perfect fate sharing. That is, gateway > addresses can be obtained if and only if they can actually be used. ... > ...Typically DHCP servers do not check for the > liveness of the configuration information they provide, or do not > discover new configuration information automatically. As a result, > there is no guarantee that configuration information will be current. Brian From Lanny635@4uintl.com Thu Sep 20 22:19:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYY7U-0005DR-PT for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:19:52 -0400 Received: from adsl-ull-90-161.48-151.net24.it ([151.48.161.90] helo=adsl-ull-123-191.48-151.net24.it) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYY7Q-0003oR-TT for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:19:49 -0400 Received: from tennis by 4uintl.com with ASMTP id 3C975FCA for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 04:20:20 +0200 Received: from tennis ([153.152.95.50]) by 4uintl.com with ESMTP id 806507A0FE83 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 04:20:20 +0200 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 04:19:59 +0200 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org From: "Lanny lalal" Subject: mootsraa Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Rumor News: Oncology Med. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7FC11.6B3EA660-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 21 01:05:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYahJ-0003xJ-Lw for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:05:01 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYahD-0004IM-G9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 01:05:01 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYadc-000GIP-Pp for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 05:01:12 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [64.233.162.224] (helo=nz-out-0506.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYadZ-000GI4-Su for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 05:01:11 +0000 Received: by nz-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id s1so659952nze for ; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:01:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.100.1 with SMTP id x1mr81328wfb.1190350868576; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.246.19 with HTTP; Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:01:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <67099930709202201j14da5b78ha2a76cdcfe3c2ea1@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2007 22:01:08 -0700 From: "Erik Kline" To: "Brian E Carpenter" Subject: Re: Architectural argument for RAs [Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP] Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org In-Reply-To: <46F30193.3030006@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> <46F30193.3030006@gmail.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d An argument for using the ll multicast addresses for "all dns servers", and "all ntp servers", perhaps? Or/also SLP? On 9/20/07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I was interested to notice this in draft-aboba-ip-config-02.txt: > > > 3.3. Fate Sharing > > > > If a server (or set of servers) is needed to get a set of > > configuration parameters, "fate sharing" ([RFC1958] Section 2.3) is > > preserved if the servers are ones without which the parameters could > > not be used, even if they were obtained via other means. The > > possibility of incorrect information being configured is minimized if > > there is only one machine which is authoritative for the information > > (i.e., there is no need to keep multiple authoritative servers in > > sync). For example, learning default gateways via Router > > Advertisements provides perfect fate sharing. That is, gateway > > addresses can be obtained if and only if they can actually be used. > > ... > > ...Typically DHCP servers do not check for the > > liveness of the configuration information they provide, or do not > > discover new configuration information automatically. As a result, > > there is no guarantee that configuration information will be current. > > Brian > > From star@pervalidus.net Fri Sep 21 02:28:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYbzu-0000Fn-GY for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 02:28:18 -0400 Received: from alyon-253-1-4-216.w83-201.abo.wanadoo.fr ([83.201.91.216]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYbzt-0001Io-Po for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 02:28:18 -0400 Received: from [83.201.91.216] by dns5.name-services.com; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:28:22 +0000 Message-ID: <000901c7fc18$027a80f3$68c29ba9@ondtvyh> From: "jeremie sven" To: Subject: quality timepieces made by Swiss jewelers Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 04:41:00 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7FC18.027863E6" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7FC18.027863E6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable DIAMOND SWISS=20 Swiss luxury timepieces NEXT DAY DELIVERY We do NOT offer or sell Replicas made in South Asia. All our replicas are precise quality timepieces made by Swiss jewelers Click here ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7FC18.027863E6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C7FC18.027863E6-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 21 04:04:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYdUb-0006ei-Oy for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 04:04:05 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYdUY-0000Do-Pg for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 04:04:05 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYdPp-0002M5-Jx for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 07:59:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYdPf-0002LA-U4 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 07:59:03 +0000 Received: from relay14.apple.com (relay14.apple.com [17.128.113.52]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEB9C11E5295 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay14.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay14.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id C5D292808A for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:58:58 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807134-a969abb000000861-1e-46f379c25eda Received: from [17.206.23.199] (il0602a-dhcp71.apple.com [17.206.23.199]) by relay14.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id B194928088 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:58:58 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <67099930709202201j14da5b78ha2a76cdcfe3c2ea1@mail.gmail.com> References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> <46F30193.3030006@gmail.com> <67099930709202201j14da5b78ha2a76cdcfe3c2ea1@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: Architectural argument for RAs [Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP] Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 00:58:57 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: cab78e1e39c4b328567edb48482b6a69 On Sep 20, 2007, at 22:01, Erik Kline wrote: > > An argument for using the ll multicast addresses for "all dns > servers", and "all ntp servers", perhaps? Or/also SLP? Almost. I see the architecture like this: 1) Use router solicitation to find your provisioned prefix and router, then stateless autoconfigure. 2) Discover ad-hoc services with multicast DNS service discovery (see ) 3) Discover provisioned DNS resolving proxy servers with router advertisement options (see draft-jeong-dnsop-ipv6-dns-discovery). Failing that, use multicast DNS to discovery ad-hoc proxy resolving servers (query for _domain._udp.local SRV records). Failing *that*, fall back completely to a local recursive resolver. 4) Discover the domains of local interest within the DNS horizon by querying for the DNS-SD signaling records in a reserved domain. 5) Discover all provisioned services in domains of local interest with non-multicast DNS-SD. With an architecture like this, service discovery is fate-shared with the rest of the name resolution system. Ad-hoc networks require zero configuration and no management. The only possible appeal that DHCP has over this architecture, it seems to me, is that DHCP lets you keep on enjoying the opportunity to break your network-- by swapping ethernet cards around, which destroys the contrived mapping between MAC address and node identity you've been carefully managing at great expense and ever-expanding budgetary authority. If IP networks were to be made brain-dead simple to operate, then Mahogany Row wouldn't be willing to pay such high salaries to the operators, now wouldn't they? -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 21 05:25:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYelr-0000Sr-R2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 05:25:59 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYell-0001km-Ku for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 05:25:59 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYeis-0008Jo-EJ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 09:22:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [192.16.199.17] (helo=dwalin.nikhef.nl) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYeif-0008I7-8t for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 09:22:46 +0000 Received: from borg.c-l-i.net (borg.c-l-i.net [192.16.192.99]) by dwalin.nikhef.nl (8.13.7/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l8L9MYnf026000; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:22:34 +0200 Received: from borg.c-l-i.net (borg.c-l-i.net [127.0.0.1]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by borg.c-l-i.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 320CD1EAB9D; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:22:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: (from shane@localhost) by borg.c-l-i.net (8.13.7/8.13.7/Submit) id l8L9MT85003394; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:22:29 +0200 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:22:29 +0200 From: Shane Kerr To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Architectural argument for RAs [Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP] Message-ID: <20070921092229.GA3091@borg.c-l-i.net> References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> <46F30193.3030006@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <46F30193.3030006@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa On Fri, Sep 21, 2007 at 11:26:11AM +1200, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > I was interested to notice this in draft-aboba-ip-config-02.txt: > > >3.3. Fate Sharing > > > > If a server (or set of servers) is needed to get a set of > > configuration parameters, "fate sharing" ([RFC1958] Section 2.3) is > > preserved if the servers are ones without which the parameters could > > not be used, even if they were obtained via other means. The > > possibility of incorrect information being configured is minimized if > > there is only one machine which is authoritative for the information > > (i.e., there is no need to keep multiple authoritative servers in > > sync). For example, learning default gateways via Router > > Advertisements provides perfect fate sharing. That is, gateway > > addresses can be obtained if and only if they can actually be used. > > ... > > ...Typically DHCP servers do not check for the > > liveness of the configuration information they provide, or do not > > discover new configuration information automatically. As a result, > > there is no guarantee that configuration information will be current. So should we be advocating "perfect fate sharing" for all protocols? It makes a certain amount of sense. To do this, RA-style messages make a certain amount of sense. Of course, you probably want to send these using UDP multicast in the general case since most services are not really tied closely to the network architecture. There may also be a need to provide different information to the client, if the device implementing the protocol acts differently depending on client information, so some sort of client/server protocol might be helpful. Pretty soon you have have DHCPv6... :) As far as DHCP servers not discovering configuration information, there is nothing preventing devices providing service from updating a DHCP server with state information or a DHCP server checking it, if this sort of "guarantee" is desirable. Or these devices can implement tiny stateless-only DHCP servers on their own. I do not know if either of these models has been pursed before in the IETF (I would not be surprised, since it seems there are no new ideas in networking), but maybe someone on this list knows? -- Shane From gong830@surfacestyle.co.uk Fri Sep 21 06:16:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYfYN-0002Qt-Hp for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:16:07 -0400 Received: from ccj102.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.30.133.102] helo=dzp18.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYfYC-0002Zq-2f for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 06:16:02 -0400 Received: from majer-f0da54c40 ([125.189.72.80]:23038 "EHLO majer-f0da54c40" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by dzp18.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl with ESMTP id S22ZSWKNNOQGRYMS (ORCPT ); Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:16:30 +0200 Message-ID: <000201c7fc38$642c4720$12991653@majerf0da54c40> From: "gong Dulude" To: Subject: glance Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:15:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7FC49.27B51720" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C7FC49.27B51720 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Rumor News: Oncology Med. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C7FC6C.DB16A3B0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 21 11:10:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYk9K-0001dV-Ie for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:10:34 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYk9B-0003R2-Co for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 11:10:31 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYk3Y-0009I3-Ik for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:04:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYk3R-0009HO-Kc for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:04:35 +0000 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l8LF1i9H038002 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:01:47 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <46F30193.3030006@gmail.com> References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> <46F30193.3030006@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <05C1287A-F8C5-44D1-A738-09B86E39C651@muada.com> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Architectural argument for RAs [Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP] Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 17:04:21 +0200 To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 On 21-sep-2007, at 1:26, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> For example, learning default gateways via Router >> Advertisements provides perfect fate sharing. I was saving this remark up for when we get to see the "do everything with DHCPv6" draft, but this is as good a time as any: If we decide to go forward with putting gateway addresses in DHCPv6 to gain administrative control over which gateway a host uses, in my opinion, the only way we can do this without the potential for serious harm is to make require that the same gateway address is both available in DHCPv6 and in RAs. So the DHCP information is more like selection mechanism between gateways in RAs than the authoritative source of the information itself. And I agree with James' vision: having servers announce their service through a discovery mechanism is more robust than having an outside system enumerate them. From Ellioitt@byys.com Fri Sep 21 13:37:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYmRE-0002Pe-Kh for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:37:12 -0400 Received: from user-85-201-33-240.tvcablenet.be ([85.201.33.240]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYmR2-0000Xg-Qq for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:37:07 -0400 Received: from alex-70eeffe95e ([162.163.88.79]:14297 "EHLO alex-70eeffe95e" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by user-85-201-33-240.tvcablenet.be with ESMTP id S22RGKJNCXBEBGBI (ORCPT ); Fri, 21 Sep 2007 19:37:18 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c7fc76$04b17e30$f021c955@alex70eeffe95e> From: "przemyslaw Ellioitt" To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: ervuoced Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 19:37:01 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c7fc76$04b17e30$f021c955@alex70eeffe95e> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad Rumor News: Oncology Med. 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 21 15:44:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYoQ5-0004TT-JH for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:44:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYoQ1-00043b-DE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 15:44:06 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYoLc-00053t-HA for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 19:39:32 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [204.14.89.5] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYoLZ-00053Z-Ie for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 19:39:30 +0000 Received: (qmail 19637 invoked by uid 399); 21 Sep 2007 19:39:27 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO slave.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTP; 21 Sep 2007 19:39:27 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 12:39:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Iljitsch van Beijnum cc: Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Architectural argument for RAs [Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP] In-Reply-To: <05C1287A-F8C5-44D1-A738-09B86E39C651@muada.com> Message-ID: References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> <46F30193.3030006@gmail.com> <05C1287A-F8C5-44D1-A738-09B86E39C651@muada.com> X-OpenPGP-Key-ID: 0xD5B2F0FB X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f On Fri, 21 Sep 2007, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > On 21-sep-2007, at 1:26, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>> For example, learning default gateways via Router >>> Advertisements provides perfect fate sharing. > > I was saving this remark up for when we get to see the "do everything with > DHCPv6" draft, but this is as good a time as any: > > If we decide to go forward with putting gateway addresses in DHCPv6 to gain > administrative control over which gateway a host uses, in my opinion, the > only way we can do this without the potential for serious harm is to make > require that the same gateway address is both available in DHCPv6 and in RAs. > So the DHCP information is more like selection mechanism between gateways in > RAs than the authoritative source of the information itself. Well at least you're finally making your argument explicit. You want RAs to be mandatory for everyone, but you don't want us to mandate the use of DHCP for you. Okey dokey. > And I agree with James' vision: having servers announce their service through > a discovery mechanism is more robust than having an outside system enumerate > them. This part I agree with. I think mDNS has a very bright future, and makes total sense in the "stateless autoconfiguration" case. "Well known addresses" is a path we should not go down. Doug -- If you're never wrong, you're not trying hard enough From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 21 16:21:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYp0N-0007BS-0T for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:21:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYp0L-0005VS-Qq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:21:38 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYoz5-0008GH-Vp for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 20:20:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYoz4-0008Fx-9T for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 20:20:19 +0000 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l8LKHYnS043436 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 21 Sep 2007 22:17:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> <46F30193.3030006@gmail.com> <05C1287A-F8C5-44D1-A738-09B86E39C651@muada.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7146E9BF-31BA-4CD2-8ABF-B21455AD4D01@muada.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Architectural argument for RAs [Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP] Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 22:20:11 +0200 To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 On 21-sep-2007, at 21:39, Doug Barton wrote: > Well at least you're finally making your argument explicit. You > want RAs to be mandatory for everyone, but you don't want us to > mandate the use of DHCP for you. Okey dokey. Hey, I'm trying to show some openmindedness here by not rejecting the addition of gateway information to DHCPv6 out of hand. (Something which, apparently, the dhc wg didn't think was a good idea at the time DHCPv6 was conceived, because it isn't in there now.) There are three questions: 1. Is there a reason why it would be helpful to run a network with routers but without RAs? 2. Would 1. be compelling enough to live with the loss of fate sharing it implies? 3. Would it be possible to set up hosts with default configuration that works both in currently deployed IPv6 networks and networks configured as per 1.? From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 21 16:39:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYpHv-0006Y2-2W for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:39:47 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYpHt-00068H-SX for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:39:47 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYpGp-0009iw-Bq for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 20:38:39 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYpGn-0009ic-Ad for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 20:38:38 +0000 Received: from relay11.apple.com (relay11.apple.com [17.128.113.48]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E49A91268D64 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay11.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay11.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id CCA2B28086 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:38:36 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807130-a23bfbb000004daf-e6-46f42bcc25c6 Received: from [17.151.86.246] (unknown [17.151.86.246]) by relay11.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 915192805A for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> <46F30193.3030006@gmail.com> <05C1287A-F8C5-44D1-A738-09B86E39C651@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <71B4FDD3-E569-43DF-B8F0-6427AD0163AE@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: Architectural argument for RAs [Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP] Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:38:33 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 On Sep 21, 2007, at 12:39, Doug Barton wrote: > On Fri, 21 Sep 2007, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: >> >> And I agree with James' vision: having servers announce their >> service through a discovery mechanism is more robust than having >> an outside system enumerate them. > > This part I agree with. I think mDNS has a very bright future, and > makes total sense in the "stateless autoconfiguration" case. "Well > known addresses" is a path we should not go down. I should note that multicast DNS-SD is the zero configuration variant of the more general-case usage of DNS service discovery. I'm not making any argument against DHCP on the grounds that it fails to be a "zero configuration" protocol. That's the whole point of DHCP: it's *SUPPOSED* to be not a zero configuration protocol. My whole argument against DHCP is that it reinvents name resolution and service discovery, requiring effort to keep state data coherent between DNS and DHCP services, which is unnecessary since DNS alone is sufficient for meeting service discovery needs. I can't imagine any reasonable usage scenario where the alternative is true, i.e. where DHCP is a required component of the infrastructure, but DNS can be disabled everywhere because it isn't needed. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 21 16:53:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYpUu-0001tj-5E for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:53:12 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IYpUs-0006YQ-VC for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 16:53:12 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYpSL-000AhA-Gj for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 20:50:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IYpSJ-000Agq-Hy for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 20:50:32 +0000 Received: from relay13.apple.com (relay13.apple.com [17.128.113.29]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 201A511F34A1 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:50:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay13.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay13.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id EDCEB2805B for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:50:30 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 1180711d-a235dbb000006cd8-2d-46f42e963cf5 Received: from [17.151.86.246] (unknown [17.151.86.246]) by relay13.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id C583A28061 for ; Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:50:30 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <7146E9BF-31BA-4CD2-8ABF-B21455AD4D01@muada.com> References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> <46F30193.3030006@gmail.com> <05C1287A-F8C5-44D1-A738-09B86E39C651@muada.com> <7146E9BF-31BA-4CD2-8ABF-B21455AD4D01@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <4761960D-4B36-493D-8456-CF2B1F427479@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: Architectural argument for RAs [Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP] Date: Fri, 21 Sep 2007 13:50:27 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 On Sep 21, 2007, at 13:20, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > There are three questions: > > 1. Is there a reason why it would be helpful to run a network with > routers but without RAs? > 2. Would 1. be compelling enough to live with the loss of fate > sharing it implies? This assumes that fate sharing is viewed by all participants as a feature, not a bug. I'm not sure I should believe this is a valid assumption. > 3. Would it be possible to set up hosts with default configuration > that works both in currently deployed IPv6 networks and networks > configured as per 1.? For some definition of "works"... remember, the next thing the DHCP people will want after they get default gateway and prefix length is to demand that DHCP servers can be authoritative for this information, not the routers, i.e. the DHCP servers will say to nodes, "turn off router solicitation and stop processing advertisements for the duration of your lease." You might find that DNAv6 is required to kick nodes into giving up their DHCP lease and retrying router solicitation before they will "work" properly, i.e. just like with IPv4. -- james woodyatt communications software engineering 1 infinite loop; ms: 306-2TC; tel: x49423 From jinstonenaja@megascooteralacant.com Sat Sep 22 09:36:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZ59y-0006T0-Cr; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:36:38 -0400 Received: from [125.84.98.25] (helo=megascooteralacant.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZ59o-0005vA-3A; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 09:36:38 -0400 Received: from unknown (189.129.90.82) by mail.gimmicc.net with ASMTP; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:35:11 +0800 Received: from [40.140.50.3] by qnx.mdrost.com with SMTP; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:33:58 +0800 Received: from unknown (161.87.21.82) by mail.naihautsui.co.kr with NNFMP; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:24:45 +0800 Received: from smtp.mixedthings.net ([158.203.39.44]) by relay37.vosimerkam.net with ESMTP; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:14:49 +0800 Received: from unknown (HELO asx121.turbo-inline.com) (Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:03:07 +0800) by relay37.vosimerkam.net with SMTP; Sat, 22 Sep 2007 21:03:07 +0800 Message-ID: <2a1c01c7fd59$0cb89ad0$e3a56978@jinstonenaja> From: "Dwayne" To: "Vera Phillips" Cc: "Leone" , "Refugia" , "Vivan" , "Rhona Banks" Subject: Private chat, okay Date: Sat, 22 Sep 2007 20:42:11 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_332_14C1_2641EFFA.569448AA" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: df1883a27a831c1ea5e8cfe5eb3ad38e This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_332_14C1_2641EFFA.569448AA Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_2FD_D64F_B6EB9622.DE14460A" ------=_NextPart_2FD_D64F_B6EB9622.DE14460A Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark, for approval instance, that opulent citizen, who is elegant as anxi= ous as test a Jew of the float Middle Ages to conceal h In the democracie= s those who fled establish high salaries expand have no led chance of pro= fiting by engine them - Tendency After the influence idea of virtue, I kn= ow no higher insect principle embarrassed than egg that of right; 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C7FE86.CE6C3820-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Sep 24 03:36:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZiUW-0001rS-5f for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 03:36:28 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZiUM-0006kl-Ve for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 03:36:25 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IZiOK-000Btf-QS for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 07:30:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [213.172.48.142] (helo=consulintel.es) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IZiOH-000BsU-MI; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 07:30:03 +0000 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nowsp; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1190618807; x=1191223607; i=alvaro.vives@consulintel.es; q=dns; h=DomainKey-Signature:Received:From:To:Cc:References: In-Reply-To:Subject:Date:Message-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Thread-Index:Reply-To; b=g5F7gK5kyrDTTP ZbIyvIn7mso3zmBMsrV9+c3WfrLxt+QA7Znnx8Zrj/Syd/bKtUbtVcNxeCpW1psE BgR1QuwyKZkACYtu6P7NtRyoCOIksJddyyJyyEtIvzv/sR7r031Xlb/D0GHCeCtl yB9W2uuVwO9FBRnAFVdsyR2FPUoB4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=ik7KM8qxTZK1+lvaXhD2m0c5l63elGc6K6Jnr6VpwcNaHqGRObwU0GG4svnJE9d+f4zLuZkRwAHfJtNGZqNkaRVZQ3LMdemJuRDJp38dnVGzVNC12ZNAA0f/oRQrCoHJoS9D1iWTF2TjFfd1qOxPXfBU5B4Z6xSHit6LR0fTcok=; Received: from PortatilALV by consulintel.es (MDaemon.PRO.v8.1.5.R) with ESMTP id md50002668414.msg; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:26:46 +0200 From: "Alvaro Vives Martinez" To: Cc: References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> <46F30193.3030006@gmail.com> <05C1287A-F8C5-44D1-A738-09B86E39C651@muada.com> In-Reply-To: <05C1287A-F8C5-44D1-A738-09B86E39C651@muada.com> Subject: RE: Architectural argument for RAs [Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP] Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:29:49 +0200 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6000.16480 Thread-Index: Acf8YTOJXpWoFaSeSj+b6DhevRHGlwCGtxhA X-Authenticated-Sender: alvaro.vives@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:070924:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org::bshsJ3DpsPib+nKn:00000000000000000000000000000000000002vWt X-MDRemoteIP: 62.175.2.240 X-Return-Path: alvaro.vives@consulintel.es Reply-To: alvaro.vives@consulintel.es X-MDAV-Processed: consulintel.es, Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:26:47 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 82c9bddb247d9ba4471160a9a865a5f3 > -----Mensaje original----- > De: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] En nombre > de Iljitsch van Beijnum > Enviado el: viernes, 21 de septiembre de 2007 17:04 > Para: Brian E Carpenter > CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org > Asunto: Re: Architectural argument for RAs [Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP] > > > On 21-sep-2007, at 1:26, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > >> For example, learning default gateways via Router > >> Advertisements provides perfect fate sharing. > > I was saving this remark up for when we get to see the "do everything > with DHCPv6" draft, but this is as good a time as any: > > If we decide to go forward with putting gateway addresses in DHCPv6 > to gain administrative control over which gateway a host uses, in my > opinion, the only way we can do this without the potential for > serious harm is to make require that the same gateway address is both > available in DHCPv6 and in RAs. So the DHCP information is more like > selection mechanism between gateways in RAs than the authoritative > source of the information itself. Following this line, would it make sense that the DHCPv6 server gets the gateway(s) information from existing RAs? This would allow the host to obtain "fresh" info and the host to fully be configured by means of DHCPv6 (this seems to be a need for some people). Regards, Alvaro Vives Consulintel > And I agree with James' vision: having servers announce their service > through a discovery mechanism is more robust than having an outside > system enumerate them. ********************************************** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 ! http://www.ipv6day.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Sep 24 05:00:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZjoI-0005a1-8M for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 05:00:58 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZjoH-0000NY-2x for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 05:00:58 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IZjkr-000HxB-1r for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:57:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [88.191.42.160] (helo=moog.chdir.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IZjko-000Hww-Iw for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:57:23 +0000 Received: from [2001:7a8:78df:2:20d:93ff:fe55:8f78] (helo=localhost.localdomain) by moog.chdir.org with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1IZjkg-0005uK-4n for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:57:14 +0200 From: arno@natisbad.org (Arnaud Ebalard) To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Teredo MTU logic References: <87abrcmtvn.fsf@natisbad.org> X-GnuPG-Key: 0x047A5026 X-Hashcash: 1:20:070924:v6ops@ops.ietf.org::YJw7uL3KlHsidMB2:0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000GCUU Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 10:57:00 +0200 In-Reply-To: <87abrcmtvn.fsf@natisbad.org> (Arnaud Ebalard's message of "Mon, 24 Sep 2007 08:59:08 +0200") Message-ID: <87r6kol9ur.fsf@natisbad.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.0.95 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 Hi, Last week I spent some time to have [IPsec-protected] Mobile IPv6 traffic be routed over a Teredo interface (everything on Linux using miredo, umip and the IPsec stack but this is not system specific). Basically, Teredo interfaces have a default MTU of 1280 bytes. This prevents their _direct_ use as the underlying device for another IPv6-in-IPv6 tunnel interface. To clarify things, I expected to be able to have that kind of traffic on the wire: IPv4 / UDP / IPv6 / ESP / IPv6 / Data ... 20 8 40 50 40 By setting up a Teredo relay at the entry of the site for that specific kind of traffic, I have the insurance that the traffic from the Mobile Nodes to their Home Agent will not use another relay (all the traffic goes to HAs inside the site). This means an higher MTU can be used on the clients without problem. Keeping it low (1400, i.e. 1430 bytes on the wire) avoids IPv4 PMTUD related issues. The question is quite simple: what is the expected way to have Teredo clients get a higher MTU than the default one? Even if Teredo servers act as routers for their clients (RS/RA exchange), I don't expect them to advertise an higher MTU value in general. In fact, because the IPv4 PMTU on the path between a client and a relay is specific to the pair (client, relay), this won't happen in general. At the moment, my conclusion is that you have 2 solutions to solve the issue: 1) setting up a relay at the edge of the site with a higher MTU value and statically configure clients 2) setting up a relay at the edge of the site _and_ a server that the clients will use to acquire an higher MTU from. I don't like 2) because it consumes a public IPv4 address and increase the attack surface. In all cases, setting up a relay is almost required to improve efficiency (i.e. having a direct routing path). Comments are welcome. Regards, a+ From xiao-wei@rocketmail.com Mon Sep 24 09:02:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZnaO-0000KK-8u for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:02:52 -0400 Received: from 20151240072.user.veloxzone.com.br ([201.51.240.72]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZnaN-0008WS-Gs for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 09:02:52 -0400 Received: from [201.51.240.72] by c.mx.mail.yahoo.com; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 13:02:51 +0000 Message-ID: <000701c7feab$04e5e2dd$a54661b4@htugdgv> From: "barr bjorn" To: Subject: Serious jobs for serious people. No investment needed. Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:15:29 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 From Jenessa-Malarek@lemanchester.com Mon Sep 24 11:48:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZqAi-0007Tq-0N for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:48:32 -0400 Received: from host80-71-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ([82.51.71.80] helo=host155-191-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZqAf-00052W-06 for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:48:29 -0400 Received: from primo ([152.198.72.155] helo=primo) by host155-191-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1dbGQx-000NRA-xE for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:48:56 +0200 Message-ID: <000601c7fec2$55375a70$9bbf3252@primo> From: "Jenessa Malarek" To: Subject: waim Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:48:21 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7FED3.18C02A70" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7FED3.18C02A70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://sfoas.com/ Morning v6ops-archive African tribes take these herbs all the time, this is why they have such = big cocks! Jenessa Malarek ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7FED3.18C02A70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    http://sfoas.com/
    Morning v6ops-archive
    African tribes take these herbs all the time, = this is=20 why they have such big cocks!
    Jenessa Malarek
    ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C7FED3.18C02A70-- From codvvuj@gaoland.net Mon Sep 24 12:35:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZquO-0001kQ-S0; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:35:44 -0400 Received: from [77.195.47.171] (helo=gaoland.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZquD-00059O-Do; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:35:40 -0400 Received: from relay37.vosimerkam.net ([95.98.179.110]) by mmx09.tilkbans.com with SMTP; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:33:35 -0400 Received: from mtu23.bigping.com ([52.90.228.201]) by mail.naihautsui.co.kr with SMTP; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:15:57 -0400 Received: from rsmail.alkoholic.net ([158.173.108.13]) by group21.345mail.com with SMTP; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 12:02:20 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO mxs.perenter.com) (Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:50:12 -0400) by mtu67.syds.piswix.net with ESMTP; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:50:12 -0400 Message-ID: From: "Carolyne" To: "Lashandra" Cc: "Michell Garrett" , "Dorian Ortiz" , "Starr" , "Angelia Oliver" , "Bobbie Griffin" <6lowpan-request@lists.ietf.org> Subject: Can't believe it Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 11:31:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; type="multipart/alternative"; boundary="----=_NextPart_2E5_B874_FD22DD4D.2ECE1E48" X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: f60fbf3dbcaca652b6d10036f0630412 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_2E5_B874_FD22DD4D.2ECE1E48 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_57F_A93C_DD0C6157.2D53A611" ------=_NextPart_57F_A93C_DD0C6157.2D53A611 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable "Why button saw do rat apian you let it go on?" "Chiefly to treat torn he= lp narrow print me get the firearms across." In match the punish dead sil= ence memorise that followed the army people looked at Montanelli, and saw= the heaving of the cross "Take care; those are new-laid mouth eggs. Katie wonderful brought them i= n from Monte alert Oliveto this bulb morning. There ar "It makes no diffe= rence; he was too quietly deeply spicy compromised already for a pistol-s= hot mysteriously shed more or less to aff "Then edge we must find another= way, that's all. smitten It's out of the question country for you to go = bread again just now." He stopped, and journey the Gadfly looked up with = a slow, inquiring trade veracious gaze. Martini's hand dropped important = by his side He stood above them, wing by sadly the altar, motionless under radiate th= e white canopy, holding squeeze the Eucharist aloft wi EPILOGUE. frowning= "I am very shallow sorry; I thought I had stocking heard you moving earl= y this morning, crack and I supposed------" "He seems much better shone p= lug now, Your trodden Eminence. He care certainly has been very ill--unle= ss he was shamming all gone "Padre, will bang you never puncture spring u= nderstand that I am not really drowned?" wept "Because--I bulb quit squar= e can't help it." He raised snow spilled his eyes at last, and gave the benediction with me= at a hand that pleasure was not quite steady. The meline companies safely= of the owe parishes passed, with their white fit shrouds and veiled face= s; then the brothers o She sat down beside the table and began clipping = the tightly stalks of crime the hole flowers and lock arranging them in a= v "Well, Rivarez," said grain notice Galli; "tell us heart the rest of the = plain puma-hunt story; you had just begun." begun "What do you plough think they exactly are going to explode do with= him?" whistle "Is axillary shoe shoe it late now?" mammilary engine "Bu= t regularly how annually could I do that?" An obstinate possess line app= eared stomach warm at the surprise corners of his under lip. "You cure are just the person who could do it engine best. I think swell = of buying the bite arms in England, and there is a "I d-don't see that it= 's flag low cake wooden out of the question." massive She decay grew attr= act a shade sat paler even than before. "You will see if you think about = the thing stocking lead calmly for a saw minute. It is healthy only five = weeks since you got ------=_NextPart_57F_A93C_DD0C6157.2D53A611 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

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    "You cure are just the person who could do it eng= ine best. I think swell of buying the bite arms in England, and there is = a "I d-don't see that it's flag low cake wooden out of the question." mas= sive She decay grew attract a shade sat paler even than before. "You will= see if you think about the thing stocking lead calmly for a saw minute. = It is healthy only five weeks since you got
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Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:10:04 -0400 Received: from [83.168.106.13] (helo=106-13.espol.com.pl) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZsNY-0008Le-6q for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 14:09:57 -0400 Received: from pt-09a5e2dac031 ([172.128.40.154]:2923 "EHLO pt-09a5e2dac031" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by 106-13.espol.com.pl with ESMTP id S22UDCDZGYZYTIVF (ORCPT ); Mon, 24 Sep 2007 20:10:30 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c7fede$85355c10$0d6aa853@pt09a5e2dac031> From: "ossi DeCenzo" To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: cnerever Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 20:10:07 +0100 Message-ID: <000c01c7fede$85355c10$0d6aa853@pt09a5e2dac031> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea regards v6ops-archive become the ultimate pleasure machine ossi DeCenzo http://www.sglzw.com/ From JohnniesourceNicholas@reuters.com Mon Sep 24 17:11:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZvDR-0005n9-8R for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:11:41 -0400 Received: from pc-139-57-120-200.cm.vtr.net ([200.120.57.139] helo=elida) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IZvDN-000843-1V for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:11:37 -0400 Message-ID: <5c4101c7feef$7cc395e0$8b3978c8@Elida> From: "Brooke Carlisle" To: Subject: Re: Thank you, we are accepting your company loan request Date: Mon, 24 Sep 2007 17:09:04 +0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_5C3D_01C7FEEF.7CC395E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 ------=_NextPart_000_5C3D_01C7FEEF.7CC395E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If you have your own business and wish IMMEDIATE money to spend ANY way = you like or want Extra money to give the company a boost or require A = low interest loan - NO STRINGS ATTACHED, here is best deal we can offer = you NOW (hurry, this tender will expire TONIGHT): $29,000+ loan Hurry, when best deal is gone, it is gone. Simply Call Us Free on = 877-292-6891 ------=_NextPart_000_5C3D_01C7FEEF.7CC395E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    If you have your own business and wish = IMMEDIATE=20 money to spend ANY way you like or want Extra money to give the company = a boost=20 or require A low interest loan - NO STRINGS ATTACHED, here is best deal = we can=20 offer you NOW (hurry, this tender will expire TONIGHT):
    =20
     
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So the DHCP information is more like >> selection mechanism between gateways in RAs than the authoritative >> source of the information itself. > > > Following this line, would it make sense that the DHCPv6 server gets the > gateway(s) information from existing RAs? This would allow the host to > obtain "fresh" info and the host to fully be configured by means of DHCPv6 > (this seems to be a need for some people). That sounds right in principle, but what happens if the default gateway is also acting as a DHCP relay, i.e. the DHCP server is on another subnet and cannot see the local RAs? Brian > > Regards, > Alvaro Vives > Consulintel > > >> And I agree with James' vision: having servers announce their service >> through a discovery mechanism is more robust than having an outside >> system enumerate them. > > > > > ********************************************** > The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org > > Bye 6Bone. 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Sep 26 16:57:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IadxA-0008Py-LO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:57:52 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iadx8-0000Xw-OY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 16:57:52 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iadr0-0004Lc-4w for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:51:30 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,HTML_MESSAGE, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [161.114.21.104] (helo=ccerelbas01.cce.hp.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iadqp-0004Ke-A9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:51:24 +0000 Received: from G3W0060.americas.hpqcorp.net (g3w0060.americas.hpqcorp.net [16.232.1.19]) by ccerelbas01.cce.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D2B8F34225 for ; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 15:41:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from G3W0055.americas.hpqcorp.net ([16.232.1.12]) by G3W0060.americas.hpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:41:25 +0000 Received: from G3W0628.americas.hpqcorp.net ([16.233.58.53]) by G3W0055.americas.hpqcorp.net with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:41:24 +0000 Received: from G3W1110.americas.hpqcorp.net ([16.232.83.4]) by G3W0628.americas.hpqcorp.net ([16.233.58.53]) with mapi; Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:41:24 +0000 From: "Burden, Ken" To: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2007 20:41:30 +0000 Subject: Address collisions on a single interface via multiple configuration methods Thread-Topic: Address collisions on a single interface via multiple configuration methods Thread-Index: AcgAfZ3xZLpUzBbOSfapYNJ385brDA== Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_ED1A93ECE572334CB919C3589D5C22081A65012680G3W1110americ_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 26 Sep 2007 20:41:24.0778 (UTC) FILETIME=[9AC828A0:01C8007D] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: f0068523cb6bca15634130f00012b297 --_000_ED1A93ECE572334CB919C3589D5C22081A65012680G3W1110americ_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, IPv6 standards define multiple methods of assigning IPv6 addresses to an in= terface - RFC 2462 IPv6 Stateless Address Autoconfiguration, RFC 3315 Dynamic Host Configura= tion Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6), and manual address configuration. Having more than one of = these methods used simultaneously is not only permitted but common. Though RFC 2462 defines = Duplicate Address Detection for a link, no RFC currently defines, or at least is not clear a= bout, a similar function for an interface. What happens if a system/device attempts to assign the same IPv6 global add= ress to an interface more than once through the various methodologies? Given three configuration methods, seven combinations of address assignment= are possible. 1. Manual No collision possible 2. SLAAC No collision possible 3. DHCPv6 No collision possible 4. Manual & SLAAC Collision possible 5. Manual & DHCPv6 Collision possible 6. SLAAC & DHCPv6 Collision possible 7. Manual & SLAAC & DHCPv6 Collision possible The order of the combinations has been seen to be significant as well. Some of the possible collision scenarios are less likely than others but so= me are not only highly likely, they occur in implementations available today. Issue/problem Manual and/or DHCPv6 configuration succeeds prior to SLAAC Depending on the specific implementation, one or more entries may be = made into the IP address table for the same address. If only one entry is made for t= he address then information associated with the address, such as configuration metho= d used, will not include SLAAC. For one common OS implementation the generation of a Temporary addres= s [RFC3041] did not occur. It appears the logic involved in generating a Temporary = address is dependent on the SLAAC address being successfully added to the address table f= or the interface. Another common OS generated a Temporary address for each Router Adver= tisement received with a matching prefix. It appears the logic involved in generating= Temporary addresses was not dependent on the SLAAC address being successfully added to t= he address table for the interface. But as the SLAAC address is never added the IPv6 sta= ck, due to the collision, it continues to add Temporary addresses. The logic appears to be lo= oking for additional information associated with the IPv6 address which indicates SLAAC w= as used to generate the address. As this entry is never made the Temporary addresses ar= e added again and again. Over time the OS became unusable and required rebooting. How to reproduce Manually configure an IPv6 address to match the SLAAC process. Or en= able DHCPv6 - in this case there appears to be a race condition. The initial DHCPv6 lease= did not complete prior to the SLAAC process. But, rebooting the OS resulted in a ren= ewal of the DHCPv6 lease which completed prior to the SLAAC process. Use the appropriate command to list the IP addresses assigned to the = host interfaces. Either generate Router Solicitations which will cause the router(s) = to generate Router Advertisements or wait for the periodic RAs from the routers. Then = check for how many Temporary addresses have been assigned. Work around Only enable one configuration method - manual, SLAAC or DHCPv6 for an= interface/link Avoid manually assigning IPv6 addresses which are identical to those = generated by the SLAAC process Lengthen the prefix, equivalent to IPv4 scope, to ensure the DHCPv6 g= enerated address cannot collide with the SLAAC process Possibly make SLAAC and DHCPv6 use different methods for generating a= n address - same process results in the same address Issue/problem Manual and/or SLAAC configuration succeeds prior to DHCPv6 Depending on the specific implementation, one or more entries may be = made into the IP address table for the same address. If only one entry is made for t= he address then information associated with the address, such as configuration method used, will= not include DHCPv6. Unused, wasted DHCPv6 leases - the DHCPv6 server shows a valid/active= lease which the client obtained - but the client in reality may or may not behave as= if it did depending on if an entry was made for the DHCPv6 method of configuration. Tho= ugh the DHCPv6 specific entry may or may not be entered in the IP address table in this scen= ario the DHCPv6 lease's value is questionable. Why have simultaneous SLAAC and DHCPv6 at al= l? Why have the same address for both methods? How to reproduce Manually configure an IPv6 address to match the DHCPv6 process. Or e= nable SLAAC - in this case there appears to be a race condition. The initial DHCPv6 = lease did not complete prior to the SLAAC process. But, rebooting the OS resulted in a ren= ewal of the DHCPv6 lease which completed prior to the SLAAC process. Use the appropriate command to list the IP addresses assigned to the = host interfaces. Work around Only enable one configuration method - manual, SLAAC or DHCPv6 for an= interface/link Avoid using DHCPv6 to assign IPv6 addresses which are identical to th= ose generated by the SLAAC process or manual configuration. Lengthen the prefix, equivalent to IPv4 scope, to ensure the DHCPv6 g= enerated address cannot collide with the SLAAC process. Possibly make SLAAC and DHCPv6 use different methods for generating a= n address - same process results in the same address Only a few OSes and embedded systems were looked at. Most appear to have s= ome form of issue when address assignments result in a collision. Other questions or issues: Should multiple entries for the same IPv6 address be permitted? If so how will this be handled? If only 1 entry should be permitted, how should collisions be handled= ? Order of completion can also play a significant role in the resulting= behavior. Should race conditions be removed e.g. SLAAC vs. DHCPv6 with renewal? Make one finish/timeout before starting the other? If DHCPv6 completes prior to the SLAAC process and the DHCPv6 lease e= xpires, what happens to the address? Will device/system configuration tools show both entries for the same= IPv6 address? Some devices hide the fact of there being more than one entry from th= e user. (Secret developer mode shows > 1 address in reality) Can existing tools permit the user to delete the "correct" entry if t= here is more than one for the same address? Additional information is typically maintained along with the IPv6 ad= dress e.g. configuration method used, lease time (DHCPv6), etc. How is this handled if there is a collision? There may be other permutations/issues for duplicate entries for an a= ddress. Just a few observations and thoughts for your consideration and comment. Regards, Ken Burden HP IT Network Architect HP IPv6 Test Bed --_000_ED1A93ECE572334CB919C3589D5C22081A65012680G3W1110americ_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Hi,

     

    IPv6 standards define multiple methods of assigning= IPv6 addresses to an interface - RFC 2462

     IPv6 Stateless Address Autoconfiguration,&nbs= p; RFC 3315 Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for

     IPv6 (DHCPv6), and manual address configuration.  Having more than one of these methods used<= /p>

     simultaneously is not only permitted but common.  Though RFC 2462 defines Duplicate Address

     Detection for a link, no RFC currently define= s, or at least is not clear about, a similar

     function for an interface.

     

    What happens if a system/device attempts to assign = the same IPv6 global address to an interface

     more than once through the various methodolog= ies?

     

    Given three configuration methods, seven combinatio= ns of address assignment are possible.

     

          1. Manual  = ;            &n= bsp;      No collision possible

          2. SLAAC  =              &n= bsp;      No collision possible

          3. DHCPv6  = ;            &n= bsp;      No collision possible

          4. Manual & SLAA= C             C= ollision possible

          5. Manual & DHCP= v6            Collis= ion possible

          6. SLAAC & DHCPv= 6             C= ollision possible

          7. Manual & SLAA= C & DHCPv6    Collision possible

     

    The order of the combinations has been seen to be significant as well.

     

    Some of the possible collision scenarios are less l= ikely than others but some are not only

     highly likely, they occur in implementations available today.

     

    Issue/problem

     

          Manual and/or DHCPv6 configuration succeeds prior to SLAAC

     

          Depending on the spe= cific implementation, one or more entries may be made into the IP

           address table = for the same address.  If only one entry is made for the address then=

           information associated with the address, such as configuration method used, will not

           include SLAAC.=

     

          For one common OS implementation the generation of a Temporary address [RFC3041] did

           not occur.&nbs= p; It appears the logic involved in generating a Temporary address is dependent

           on the SLAAC a= ddress being successfully added to the address table for the interface.=

     

          Another common OS generated a Temporary address for each Router Advertisement received

           with a matchin= g prefix.  It appears the logic involved in generating Temporary address= es

           was not depend= ent on the SLAAC address being successfully added to the address table for

           the interface.=   But as the SLAAC address is never added the IPv6 stack, due to the collisio= n,

           it continues t= o add Temporary addresses.  The logic appears to be looking for additional

           information associated with the IPv6 address which indicates SLAAC was used to generate=

           the address.&n= bsp; As this entry is never made the Temporary addresses are added again and aga= in.

           Over time the = OS became unusable and required rebooting.

     

    How to reproduce

     

          Manually configure a= n IPv6 address to match the SLAAC process.  Or enable DHCPv6 – in this<= o:p>

           case there app= ears to be a race condition.  The initial DHCPv6 lease did not complete

           prior to the S= LAAC process.  But, rebooting the OS resulted in a renewal of the DHCPv6

           lease which completed prior to the SLAAC process.

     

          Use the appropriate command to list the IP addresses assigned to the host interfaces.

           Either generat= e Router Solicitations which will cause the router(s) to generate Router=

           Advertisements= or wait for the periodic RAs from the routers.  Then check for how many

           Temporary addr= esses have been assigned.

     

    Work around

     

          Only enable one configuration method – manual, SLAAC or DHCPv6 for an interface/link<= o:p>

     

          Avoid manually assig= ning IPv6 addresses which are identical to those generated by the

           SLAAC process<= o:p>

     

          Lengthen the prefix, equivalent to IPv4 scope, to ensure the DHCPv6 generated address=

           cannot collide= with the SLAAC process

     

          Possibly make SLAAC = and DHCPv6 use different methods for generating an address – same

           process result= s in the same address

     

    Issue/problem

     

          Manual and/or SLAAC configuration succeeds prior to DHCPv6

     

          Depending on the spe= cific implementation, one or more entries may be made into the IP

           address table = for the same address.  If only one entry is made for the address then information

           associated wit= h the address, such as configuration method used, will not include DHCPv6.

     

          Unused, wasted DHCPv= 6 leases – the DHCPv6 server shows a valid/active lease which the<= /o:p>

           client obtaine= d – but the client in reality may or may not behave as if it did depend= ing

           on if an entry= was made for the DHCPv6 method of configuration.  Though the DHCPv6 specif= ic

           entry may or m= ay not be entered in the IP address table in this scenario the DHCPv6 lease’= s

           value is questionable.  Why have simultaneous SLAAC and DHCPv6 at all?  Wh= y have the same

           address for bo= th methods?

     

    How to reproduce

     

          Manually configure a= n IPv6 address to match the DHCPv6 process.  Or enable SLAAC – in<= /o:p>

           this case ther= e appears to be a race condition.  The initial DHCPv6 lease did not comp= lete

           prior to the S= LAAC process.  But, rebooting the OS resulted in a renewal of the DHCPv6

           lease which completed prior to the SLAAC process.

     

          Use the appropriate command to list the IP addresses assigned to the host interfaces.

     

    Work around

     

          Only enable one configuration method – manual, SLAAC or DHCPv6 for an interface/link<= o:p>

     

          Avoid using DHCPv6 t= o assign IPv6 addresses which are identical to those generated by<= /p>

           the SLAAC proc= ess or manual configuration.

     

          Lengthen the prefix, equivalent to IPv4 scope, to ensure the DHCPv6 generated address=

           cannot collide= with the SLAAC process.

     

          Possibly make SLAAC = and DHCPv6 use different methods for generating an address – same

           process result= s in the same address

     

    Only a few OSes and embedded systems were looked at.  Most appear to have some form of issue

     when address assignments result in a collisio= n.

     

    Other questions or issues:

     

          Should multiple entr= ies for the same IPv6 address be permitted? 

             &n= bsp;  If so how will this be handled?

     

          If only 1 entry shou= ld be permitted, how should collisions be handled?

     

          Order of completion = can also play a significant role in the resulting behavior.

     

          Should race conditio= ns be removed e.g. SLAAC vs. DHCPv6 with renewal?

             &n= bsp;  Make one finish/timeout before starting the other?

         

          If DHCPv6 completes = prior to the SLAAC process and the DHCPv6 lease expires, what

           happens to the address?

         

          Will device/system configuration tools show both entries for the same IPv6 address?=

         

          Some devices hide th= e fact of there being more than one entry from the user. 

            (Secret devel= oper mode shows > 1 address in reality)

         

          Can existing tools p= ermit the user to delete the “correct” entry if there is more

           than one for t= he same address?

         

          Additional informati= on is typically maintained along with the IPv6 address e.g.

           configuration = method used, lease time (DHCPv6), etc.

         

             &n= bsp;  How is this handled if there is a collision?

         

          There may be other permutations/issues for duplicate entries for an address.

     

    Just a few observations and thoughts for your consideration and comment.

     

    Regards,

     

    Ken Burden

    HP IT Network Architect

    HP IPv6 Test Bed

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    --_000_ED1A93ECE572334CB919C3589D5C22081A65012680G3W1110americ_-- From meiPogink@mantra-metal.com Thu Sep 27 05:48:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iapz0-0001P3-OX for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 05:48:34 -0400 Received: from pd9e14a29.dip.t-dialin.net ([217.225.74.41]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iapyx-0002DJ-Tf for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 05:48:32 -0400 Received: from poller1 by mantra-metal.com with ASMTP id 828CC379 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:44:38 +0200 Received: from poller1 ([193.177.91.34]) by mantra-metal.com with ESMTP id A3045A990675 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:44:38 +0200 Message-ID: <09C984C1.2B4C5B61@mantra-metal.com> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 11:44:07 +0200 From: "mei Pogink" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: paleer Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.0 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea compliments v6ops-archive change your life starting from today and get a bigger penis mei Pogink http://ghostorg.com/ From farbod@albingia-schulz.de Thu Sep 27 09:14:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IatC3-0002jg-II for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:14:15 -0400 Received: from [85.98.223.213] (helo=dsl85-98-57301.ttnet.net.tr) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IatBz-00083H-Ot for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:14:12 -0400 Received: from a-d3863b9245a44 by albingia-schulz.de with ASMTP id 4343AE44 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:14:54 +0300 Received: from a-d3863b9245a44 ([160.137.63.60]) by albingia-schulz.de with ESMTP id E23EB8904AB9 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:14:54 +0300 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:14:33 +0300 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org From: "farbod Molyneaux" Subject: hollowin Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Good night v6ops-archive I have a successful career, great friends, and own my own home. My sex life was the only area where I was lacking farbod Molyneaux http://www.goorgel.com/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 27 09:29:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IatQP-0003m0-U3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:29:05 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IatQF-00067d-Kj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:29:01 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IatLY-000Fn2-L5 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:24:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [156.153.255.206] (helo=atlrel8.hp.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IatLV-000FlU-3C for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:24:02 +0000 Received: from smtp2.fc.hp.com (smtp2.fc.hp.com [15.11.136.114]) by atlrel8.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B201237426 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:23:40 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [16.116.97.23] (galen.zko.hp.com [16.116.97.23]) by smtp2.fc.hp.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED5D922D073; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 13:23:39 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: <46FBAEDB.7060106@hp.com> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:23:39 -0400 From: Vlad Yasevich User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.4 (X11/20070604) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Burden, Ken" Cc: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" Subject: Re: Address collisions on a single interface via multiple configuration methods References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9178bae9f85419fdc08e9f2c86e345d0 Hi Ken Burden, Ken wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > IPv6 standards define multiple methods of assigning IPv6 addresses to an > interface - RFC 2462 > > IPv6 Stateless Address Autoconfiguration, RFC 3315 Dynamic Host > Configuration Protocol for > > IPv6 (DHCPv6), and manual address configuration. Having more than one > of these methods used > > simultaneously is not only permitted but common. Though RFC 2462 > defines Duplicate Address > > Detection for a link, no RFC currently defines, or at least is not > clear about, a similar > > function for an interface. > Sort of. The IPv6 Scoped Address Architecture defines global scope as o Global scope, for uniquely identifying interfaces anywhere in the Internet. Which essentially means that no 2 interfaces on the internet may have the same global address. That's really a lofty goal and one would say is impossible to verify. However, DAD handles verifications on a specific link, and implementations should take care not to assign the same address on different interfaces. > > > What happens if a system/device attempts to assign the same IPv6 global > address to an interface > > more than once through the various methodologies? It should fail. The first method of assignment should win the race. -vlad > > > > Given three configuration methods, seven combinations of address > assignment are possible. > > > > 1. Manual No collision possible > > 2. SLAAC No collision possible > > 3. DHCPv6 No collision possible > > 4. Manual & SLAAC Collision possible > > 5. Manual & DHCPv6 Collision possible > > 6. SLAAC & DHCPv6 Collision possible > > 7. Manual & SLAAC & DHCPv6 Collision possible > > > > The order of the combinations has been seen to be significant as well. > > > > Some of the possible collision scenarios are less likely than others but > some are not only > > highly likely, they occur in implementations available today. > > > > Issue/problem > > > > Manual and/or DHCPv6 configuration succeeds prior to SLAAC > > > > Depending on the specific implementation, one or more entries may > be made into the IP > > address table for the same address. If only one entry is made > for the address then > > information associated with the address, such as configuration > method used, will not > > include SLAAC. > > > > For one common OS implementation the generation of a Temporary > address [RFC3041] did > > not occur. It appears the logic involved in generating a > Temporary address is dependent > > on the SLAAC address being successfully added to the address > table for the interface. > > > > Another common OS generated a Temporary address for each Router > Advertisement received > > with a matching prefix. It appears the logic involved in > generating Temporary addresses > > was not dependent on the SLAAC address being successfully added > to the address table for > > the interface. But as the SLAAC address is never added the IPv6 > stack, due to the collision, > > it continues to add Temporary addresses. The logic appears to be > looking for additional > > information associated with the IPv6 address which indicates > SLAAC was used to generate > > the address. As this entry is never made the Temporary addresses > are added again and again. > > Over time the OS became unusable and required rebooting. > > > > How to reproduce > > > > Manually configure an IPv6 address to match the SLAAC process. Or > enable DHCPv6 – in this > > case there appears to be a race condition. The initial DHCPv6 > lease did not complete > > prior to the SLAAC process. But, rebooting the OS resulted in a > renewal of the DHCPv6 > > lease which completed prior to the SLAAC process. > > > > Use the appropriate command to list the IP addresses assigned to > the host interfaces. > > Either generate Router Solicitations which will cause the > router(s) to generate Router > > Advertisements or wait for the periodic RAs from the routers. > Then check for how many > > Temporary addresses have been assigned. > > > > Work around > > > > Only enable one configuration method – manual, SLAAC or DHCPv6 for > an interface/link > > > > Avoid manually assigning IPv6 addresses which are identical to > those generated by the > > SLAAC process > > > > Lengthen the prefix, equivalent to IPv4 scope, to ensure the > DHCPv6 generated address > > cannot collide with the SLAAC process > > > > Possibly make SLAAC and DHCPv6 use different methods for > generating an address – same > > process results in the same address > > > > Issue/problem > > > > Manual and/or SLAAC configuration succeeds prior to DHCPv6 > > > > Depending on the specific implementation, one or more entries may > be made into the IP > > address table for the same address. If only one entry is made > for the address then information > > associated with the address, such as configuration method used, > will not include DHCPv6. > > > > Unused, wasted DHCPv6 leases – the DHCPv6 server shows a > valid/active lease which the > > client obtained – but the client in reality may or may not behave > as if it did depending > > on if an entry was made for the DHCPv6 method of configuration. > Though the DHCPv6 specific > > entry may or may not be entered in the IP address table in this > scenario the DHCPv6 lease’s > > value is questionable. Why have simultaneous SLAAC and DHCPv6 at > all? Why have the same > > address for both methods? > > > > How to reproduce > > > > Manually configure an IPv6 address to match the DHCPv6 process. > Or enable SLAAC – in > > this case there appears to be a race condition. The initial > DHCPv6 lease did not complete > > prior to the SLAAC process. But, rebooting the OS resulted in a > renewal of the DHCPv6 > > lease which completed prior to the SLAAC process. > > > > Use the appropriate command to list the IP addresses assigned to > the host interfaces. > > > > Work around > > > > Only enable one configuration method – manual, SLAAC or DHCPv6 for > an interface/link > > > > Avoid using DHCPv6 to assign IPv6 addresses which are identical to > those generated by > > the SLAAC process or manual configuration. > > > > Lengthen the prefix, equivalent to IPv4 scope, to ensure the > DHCPv6 generated address > > cannot collide with the SLAAC process. > > > > Possibly make SLAAC and DHCPv6 use different methods for > generating an address – same > > process results in the same address > > > > Only a few OSes and embedded systems were looked at. Most appear to > have some form of issue > > when address assignments result in a collision. > > > > Other questions or issues: > > > > Should multiple entries for the same IPv6 address be permitted? > > If so how will this be handled? > > > > If only 1 entry should be permitted, how should collisions be > handled? > > > > Order of completion can also play a significant role in the > resulting behavior. > > > > Should race conditions be removed e.g. SLAAC vs. DHCPv6 with renewal? > > Make one finish/timeout before starting the other? > > > > If DHCPv6 completes prior to the SLAAC process and the DHCPv6 > lease expires, what > > happens to the address? > > > > Will device/system configuration tools show both entries for the > same IPv6 address? > > > > Some devices hide the fact of there being more than one entry from > the user. > > (Secret developer mode shows > 1 address in reality) > > > > Can existing tools permit the user to delete the “correct” entry > if there is more > > than one for the same address? > > > > Additional information is typically maintained along with the IPv6 > address e.g. > > configuration method used, lease time (DHCPv6), etc. > > > > How is this handled if there is a collision? > > > > There may be other permutations/issues for duplicate entries for > an address. > > > > Just a few observations and thoughts for your consideration and comment. > > > > Regards, > > > > Ken Burden > > HP IT Network Architect > > HP IPv6 Test Bed > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From chantel.Salandy@nmpffa.com Thu Sep 27 09:47:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IatiW-0005JK-2a for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:47:48 -0400 Received: from aqz241.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.26.185.241] helo=abgh103.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IatiV-0000oH-Fm for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 09:47:47 -0400 Received: from gawro-0c06b0eb0 ([120.180.104.137]:11901 "EHLO gawro-0c06b0eb0" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by abgh103.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl with ESMTP id S22DUJVDWZALLAVD (ORCPT ); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:48:02 +0200 Message-ID: <000801c8010c$f96302b0$67470753@gawro0c06b0eb0> From: "chantel Salandy" To: Subject: unrettba Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:47:41 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C8011D.BCEBD2B0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Scan-Module: SMTP[2007.01.30 (2006.01.25)] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C8011D.BCEBD2B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://migsweb.com/ Good day v6ops-archive This is the website seen on the news and 60 minutes. chantel Salandy ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C8011D.BCEBD2B0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C8011D.BCEBD2B0-- From Montoyaoee@alles-fix.de Thu Sep 27 10:49:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iaug8-0004Kd-85 for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:49:24 -0400 Received: from adsl-ull-238-170.48-151.net24.it ([151.48.170.238]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iaug7-0003WX-HH for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 10:49:24 -0400 Received: from notebook by alles-fix.de with ASMTP id 0F3F9A9D for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:49:55 +0200 Received: from notebook ([126.106.129.83]) by alles-fix.de with ESMTP id 98E32E291B60 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:49:55 +0200 Message-ID: <276B0C3A.233EC0BA@alles-fix.de> Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:49:22 +0200 From: "Facu Montoya" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: isolemen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Morning v6ops-archive A Bigger penis means much more enjoyment! Facu Montoya http://clannnn.com/ From Hezi-Lalanne@botany.nl Thu Sep 27 14:27:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iay53-0007Mt-EL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:27:21 -0400 Received: from chello080109140141.tirol.surfer.at ([80.109.140.141]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iay4h-0002RG-De for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 14:27:00 -0400 Received: by 10.76.57.40 with SMTP id iLHMFhlVZehSr; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:26:23 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.124.89 with SMTP id ZZxSuDGibQypIq.0061579164454; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:26:21 +0200 (GMT) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:26:18 +0200 From: "Hezi Lalanne" Reply-To: "Hezi Lalanne" Message-ID: <483386638102.674727142499@botany.nl> To: Subject: ytiladue MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Hello v6ops-archive become the ultimate pleasure machine Hezi Lalanne http://www.mihulla.com/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 27 15:20:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iayue-00039G-Ks for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:20:40 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IayuT-0008NU-F6 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:20:36 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IaypW-00041E-HS for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:15:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IaypT-00040n-VW for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:15:21 +0000 Received: from basile.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:211:11ff:fe25:e6b4]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A769677B for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:15:17 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: The IPv4 Internet MTU (was Re: Teredo MTU logic) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:15:15 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <87abrcmtvn.fsf@natisbad.org> <87r6kol9ur.fsf@natisbad.org> In-Reply-To: <87r6kol9ur.fsf@natisbad.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200709272215.16068.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Le Monday 24 September 2007 11:57:00 Arnaud Ebalard, vous avez =E9crit=A0: > At the moment, my conclusion is that you have 2 solutions to > solve the issue: > > 1) setting up a relay at the edge of the site with a higher MTU value > and statically configure clients > 2) setting up a relay at the edge of the site _and_ a server that the > clients will use to acquire an higher MTU from. After some more not-so-long thinking, what about: 3) get rough consensus that there are no paths on the IPv4 Internet with a = MTU=20 larger or equal to 1308 bytes (the current "outer" Teredo MTU), but smaller= =20 than 1348 bytes (or any slightly bigger value)? Then, it is safe to update= =20 everything to a bigger inner MTU of 1320 bytes (or more); it will not cause= =20 any extra on-path fragmentation. In fact, it will even diminish the overhea= d. So my naive question of the day is: Does anyone have any practical case for an IPv4 path MTU within [1308;1348[= ? =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 27 15:47:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IazKH-0003av-8G for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:47:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IazKE-0000hz-My for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:47:09 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IazJ4-0007K7-OC for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:45:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IazJ2-0007Jl-2G for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:45:53 +0000 Received: from [82.192.90.28] (nirrti.muada.com [82.192.90.28]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l8RJh3eY071677 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:43:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <200709272215.16068.rdenis@simphalempin.com> References: <87abrcmtvn.fsf@natisbad.org> <87r6kol9ur.fsf@natisbad.org> <200709272215.16068.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <37F790E0-289C-4B22-86D3-438B01CCE560@muada.com> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU (was Re: Teredo MTU logic) Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:45:43 +0200 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 On 27-sep-2007, at 21:15, R=E9mi Denis-Courmont wrote: > So my naive question of the day is: > Does anyone have any practical case for an IPv4 path MTU within =20 > [1308;1348[ ? Can't think of any but lack of imagination never stopped breakage... I'm starting to think we may need an MTU BoF or MTU wg. There are =20 just so many issues sourrounding packet sizes and fragmentation, and =20 they're dealt with in a rather fragmented way currently.= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 27 17:19:31 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib0lf-0004jB-E4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:19:31 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib0lb-0002hj-Bk for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:19:31 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib0hs-000HD7-IH for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:15:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [88.191.42.160] (helo=moog.chdir.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib0hp-000HCa-Gs for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 21:15:34 +0000 Received: from [2001:7a8:78df:2:20d:93ff:fe55:8f78] (helo=localhost.localdomain) by moog.chdir.org with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib0hj-0005aE-5R; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:15:27 +0200 From: arno@natisbad.org (Arnaud Ebalard) To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi?= Denis-Courmont Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU References: <87abrcmtvn.fsf@natisbad.org> <87r6kol9ur.fsf@natisbad.org> <200709272215.16068.rdenis@simphalempin.com> X-GnuPG-Key: 0x047A5026 X-Hashcash: 1:20:070927:v6ops@ops.ietf.org::fslxsTgKeNzXpxdU:000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000gr X-Hashcash: 1:20:070927:rdenis@simphalempin.com::xc1XuOyHZKwOc3+8:000000000000000000000000000000000000002nWo Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:15:23 +0200 In-Reply-To: <200709272215.16068.rdenis@simphalempin.com> (=?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi?= Denis-Courmont's message of "Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:15:15 +0300") Message-ID: <87myv7q07o.fsf@natisbad.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.0.95 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c Hi, Rémi Denis-Courmont writes: > Le Monday 24 September 2007 11:57:00 Arnaud Ebalard, vous avez écrit: >> At the moment, my conclusion is that you have 2 solutions to >> solve the issue: >> >> 1) setting up a relay at the edge of the site with a higher MTU value >> and statically configure clients >> 2) setting up a relay at the edge of the site _and_ a server that the >> clients will use to acquire an higher MTU from. > > After some more not-so-long thinking, what about: > 3) get rough consensus that there are no paths on the IPv4 Internet with a MTU > larger or equal to 1308 bytes (the current "outer" Teredo MTU), but smaller > than 1348 bytes (or any slightly bigger value)? Then, it is safe to update > everything to a bigger inner MTU of 1320 bytes (or more); it will not cause > any extra on-path fragmentation. In fact, it will even diminish the > overhead. What would be the precise drawbacks of setting the MTU for Teredo to 1472 (1500 - teredo overhead) or something just below that (to deal with common other encapsulation on the path, which will most of the time appear at both ends, like with PPPoE or similar things)? If the bet is fair, there would only be a limited amount of fragmentation while still providing clients with a better initial MTU (more efficient and with more potential). I won't say that what i described in my previous email (Tunnel mode IPsec over Teredo) is the worst case scenario in term of MTU usage by a client but it's a good starting point of the kind of MTU everyone would be happy to consider as available on the IPv4 Internet. Let's call that value A. Just for the discussion, let's set it to 1408 (1280 + 60 + 40 + 20 + 8, 60 is some reasonable value for ESP). Then, taking the problem in the reverse direction, by temporarily considering an initial MTU of 1500 for the path and removing the kind of encapsulation that the network can "consume" (PPPoE, IPsec in tunnel mode (IPv4 for outer header), ..., ?) we could get a value B. Again, for the discussion, with both PPPoE and IPsec in tunnel mode, we can probably consider 1412 (1500 - 60 - 20 - 8) as an initial value. Now, it seems to me that considering sth in [A,B] is simply making a reasonable bet that this value of IPv4 MTU should work on all pathes in the IPv4 Internet and with all kinds of encapsulations at the client. Here, something in [1408, 1412]. This silly idea gets me to a default MTU for Teredo interfaces in [1380, 1384]. I know it looks like cooking but it seems a fair bet and it provides in default cases almost a 10% boost of TCP MSS value for Teredo clients without obvious drawbacks. Comments welcome. Errors correction too. > So my naive question of the day is: > Does anyone have any practical case for an IPv4 path MTU within > [1308;1348[ ? or [1308, 1410[ ? ;-) Regards, a+ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 27 18:47:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib28k-0003lO-KT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:47:26 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib28j-0004a6-EL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 18:47:26 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib25E-0000Ep-2T for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:43:48 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [130.76.96.56] (helo=stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib25B-0000EE-1Q for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 22:43:46 +0000 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (blv-av-01.boeing.com [192.42.227.216]) by stl-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id l8RMhLlX019917 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:43:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l8RMhKse018305; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:43:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l8RMhGnh018070; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:43:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:43:19 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 15:42:38 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDACF@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <87myv7q07o.fsf@natisbad.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: The IPv4 Internet MTU Thread-Index: AcgBTU/sAAoFzE2QQFOZLx/vQqq+UwACc0/A References: <87abrcmtvn.fsf@natisbad.org> <87r6kol9ur.fsf@natisbad.org><200709272215.16068.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <87myv7q07o.fsf@natisbad.org> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Arnaud Ebalard" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 27 Sep 2007 22:43:19.0996 (UTC) FILETIME=[CD6797C0:01C80157] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 > This silly idea gets me to a default MTU for Teredo interfaces in = [1380, > 1384]. I know it looks like cooking but it seems a fair bet and it > provides in default cases almost a 10% boost of TCP MSS value for = Teredo > clients without obvious drawbacks. Why not just set the Teredo interface MTU to (64KB-ENCAPS)? Then, take special care to make sure the small packets get through but let the big packets take care of themselves. Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 27 19:38:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib2vj-0001yJ-IZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:38:03 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib2vi-0005f5-AY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:38:03 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib2uC-00069I-Jc for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:36:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [131.107.115.212] (helo=smtp.microsoft.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib2u9-00068s-5U for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 23:36:26 +0000 Received: from TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.72) by TK5-EXGWY-E801.partners.extranet.microsoft.com (10.251.56.50) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 8.1.177.2; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:36:24 -0700 Received: from tk5-exmlt-w602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com (157.54.70.14) by TK5-EXHUB-C102.redmond.corp.microsoft.com (157.54.70.72) with Microsoft SMTP Server id 8.1.177.1; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:36:22 -0700 Received: from NA-EXMSG-W601.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([fe80::5efe:169.254.2.198]) by tk5-exmlt-w602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com ([::1]) with mapi; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:36:11 -0700 From: Christian Huitema To: "Templin, Fred L" , Arnaud Ebalard , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= CC: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:36:09 -0700 Subject: RE: The IPv4 Internet MTU Thread-Topic: The IPv4 Internet MTU Thread-Index: AcgBTU/sAAoFzE2QQFOZLx/vQqq+UwACc0/AAAHAy5A= Message-ID: References: <87abrcmtvn.fsf@natisbad.org> <87r6kol9ur.fsf@natisbad.org><200709272215.16068.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <87myv7q07o.fsf@natisbad.org> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDACF@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDACF@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 > > This silly idea gets me to a default MTU for Teredo interfaces in > [1380, > > 1384]. I know it looks like cooking but it seems a fair bet and it > > provides in default cases almost a 10% boost of TCP MSS value for > Teredo > > clients without obvious drawbacks. > > Why not just set the Teredo interface MTU to (64KB-ENCAPS)? > Then, take special care to make sure the small packets get > through but let the big packets take care of themselves. The problem is UDP fragmentation. By nature, it is unreliable: the more fra= gments, the more chances to lose one of them, thus causing the loss of the = entire packet. This is aggravated by NAT behavior: some NAT will try to rea= ssemble the packets, but others will just pass the 1st fragment and drop th= e next ones. That would not be too much of a problem if TCP implementations could do MTU= detection by just reacting to packet losses. But today, many TCP implement= ations don't. The MTU discovery is triggered by ICMP "packet too big" messa= ges. These messages are not generated if a UDP fragment is lost. -- Christian Huitema From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 27 20:08:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib3PK-0005lv-2t for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:08:38 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib3PI-0006Iw-IE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:08:38 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib3MM-0009oS-Lo for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:05:34 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [130.76.32.69] (helo=blv-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib3MI-0009nE-KV for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:05:33 +0000 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (stl-av-01.boeing.com [192.76.190.6]) by blv-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id l8S05CHI023297 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l8S05B3K001389; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:05:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l8S052bI000852; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 19:05:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:05:10 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:04:18 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDAD0@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: The IPv4 Internet MTU Thread-Index: AcgBTU/sAAoFzE2QQFOZLx/vQqq+UwACc0/AAAHAy5AAAFtTwA== References: <87abrcmtvn.fsf@natisbad.org><87r6kol9ur.fsf@natisbad.org><200709272215.16068.rdenis@simphalempin.com><87myv7q07o.fsf@natisbad.org><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDACF@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Christian Huitema" , "Arnaud Ebalard" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Sep 2007 00:05:10.0855 (UTC) FILETIME=[3C813570:01C80163] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 082a9cbf4d599f360ac7f815372a6a15 =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Christian Huitema [mailto:huitema@windows.microsoft.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 4:36 PM > To: Templin, Fred L; Arnaud Ebalard; R=E9mi Denis-Courmont > Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org > Subject: RE: The IPv4 Internet MTU >=20 > > > This silly idea gets me to a default MTU for Teredo interfaces in > > [1380, > > > 1384]. I know it looks like cooking but it seems a fair bet and it > > > provides in default cases almost a 10% boost of TCP MSS value for > > Teredo > > > clients without obvious drawbacks. > > > > Why not just set the Teredo interface MTU to (64KB-ENCAPS)? > > Then, take special care to make sure the small packets get > > through but let the big packets take care of themselves. >=20 > The problem is UDP fragmentation. I guess you mean IPv4 fragmentation? Even so, there is a lot we can do within the no-man's-land of the Teredo interface after we get a packet from IPv6 and before we give it over to IPv4. So, why not just give IPv6 an optimistic MTU estimate then deal with reality from within? > By nature, it is=20 > unreliable: the more fragments, the more chances to lose one=20 > of them, thus causing the loss of the entire packet. This is=20 > aggravated by NAT behavior: some NAT will try to reassemble=20 > the packets, but others will just pass the 1st fragment and=20 > drop the next ones. That doesn't sound too good. Maybe we should just forget about IPv4 fragmentation altogether and fall back to IPv6 fragmentation instead? =20 > That would not be too much of a problem if TCP=20 > implementations could do MTU detection by just reacting to=20 > packet losses. But today, many TCP implementations don't. The=20 > MTU discovery is triggered by ICMP "packet too big" messages.=20 > These messages are not generated if a UDP fragment is lost. Well, that's more or less what I was driving at in terms of taking care of the smalls and letting the bigs take care of themselves. If we had the tunnel endpoint send specially-padded probes to the tunnel far-end, then it would know the largest packet it could admit into the tunnel before either fragmenting or dropping and sending back a PTB. But, probing for sizes larger than 1500+ would be wasteful if the original source was already doing its own MTU detection anyway. BTW, how big did you say those bubbles were that you=20 are blowing? (Or, maybe it was the echo requests...) Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Sep 27 20:08:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib3PQ-0005tN-Lf for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:08:44 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib3PP-0006JA-FX for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 20:08:44 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib3NO-0009xC-QM for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:06:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib3NL-0009wn-NS for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 00:06:37 +0000 Received: from relay13.apple.com (relay13.apple.com [17.128.113.29]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14F381355FFB for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay13.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay13.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id F00F328052 for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:06:34 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 1180711d-a1b5cbb000006cd8-9a-46fc458a56bb Received: from [17.206.23.199] (il0602a-dhcp71.apple.com [17.206.23.199]) by relay13.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id D2EA82802F for ; Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:06:34 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: <87abrcmtvn.fsf@natisbad.org> <87r6kol9ur.fsf@natisbad.org> <200709272215.16068.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <87myv7q07o.fsf@natisbad.org> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDACF@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <45B320D8-25E0-492A-922B-3285FBB0BC60@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Thu, 27 Sep 2007 17:06:34 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f On Sep 27, 2007, at 16:36, Christian Huitema wrote: > > That would not be too much of a problem if TCP implementations > could do MTU detection by just reacting to packet losses. But > today, many TCP implementations don't. The MTU discovery is > triggered by ICMP "packet too big" messages. These messages are not > generated if a UDP fragment is lost. These messages are also sometimes not generated as a matter of deliberate policy. I am aware of several popular PPPoE network operators who have deliberately chosen for their access concentrators to be IPv6 path MTU discovery black holes for reasons that have never been disclosed to me. The software distributions they bundle with their service have elaborate mechanisms for configuring the MTU on the PPPoE interface properly, despite exchanging MTU options in the PPP negotiation with the PPPoE access concentrators that require MTU=1500, which can't work over ethernet. There is no good reason for continuing to do this that I can see. The result of these black holes being a permanent fixture in the IPv4 Internet is that NAT gateways typically clamp the MSS field during TCP stateful connection tracking to prevent path MTU discovery brokenness from interfering with applications. (Apple's AirPort base stations in PPPoE mode clamps the MSS on TCP streams to 1400 bytes. Larger values have proven perilous in the past.) If I were more impolite, then I would do more than merely suggest that some people view the brokenness of IPv4 path MTU discovery as a feature rather than a bug. I'm learning to be more polite. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From gerochi@iobhh.co.uk Fri Sep 28 01:35:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib8Vu-0006M0-Lr for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 01:35:46 -0400 Received: from adsl205-17.aknet.it ([194.242.205.17]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib8Vs-0002QG-NO for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 01:35:46 -0400 Received: by 10.126.123.174 with SMTP id SSltFDiQAKGxU; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:35:42 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.215.159 with SMTP id TfCqnLyuWgTqfc.9783688422186; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:35:40 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: <000901c80191$65f28f20$11cdf2c2@minifabbris> From: "Alran gerochi" To: Subject: ehniknis Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:35:37 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C801A2.297B5F20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C801A2.297B5F20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.miicke.com/ Hi v6ops-archive become the ultimate pleasure machine Alran gerochi ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C801A2.297B5F20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C801A2.297B5F20-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 28 02:19:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib9CK-0006zU-Pq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 02:19:36 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib9CA-0005wF-Jv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 02:19:32 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib97I-000O4x-8P for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:14:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib97F-000O4O-H2 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:14:22 +0000 Received: by poy.chewa.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id D9E729680C; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:14:17 +0200 (CEST) To: Christian Huitema Subject: RE: The IPv4 Internet MTU MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 08:14:17 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Cc: "Templin, Fred L" , Arnaud Ebalard , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Organization: Remlab.net In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: X-Sender: rdenis@simphalempin.com User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1-rc1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 On Thu, 27 Sep 2007 16:36:09 -0700, Christian Huitema wrote: >> Why not just set the Teredo interface MTU to (64KB-ENCAPS)? >> Then, take special care to make sure the small packets get >> through but let the big packets take care of themselves. > The problem is UDP fragmentation. By nature, it is unreliable: the more > fragments, the more chances to lose one of them, thus causing the loss of > the entire packet. This is aggravated by NAT behavior: some NAT will try to > reassemble the packets, but others will just pass the 1st fragment and drop > the next ones. Maybe Fred was hinting that Teredo could have defined its fragmentation layer between UDP and IPv6. But while this would work-around on-path fragmentation it would bring a naughty congestion control issue - one simply cannot send 40 datagrams of 1500 bytes each with no pacing. And we don't want to have to do congestion control, right? -- RĂ©mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ From Maurice486@bosworthfamily.com Fri Sep 28 02:39:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib9VE-0007FI-D3 for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 02:39:08 -0400 Received: from promtehsnab.galant.ru ([85.21.13.240]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib9V1-0003se-Dc for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 02:38:56 -0400 Received: from Oborud1 ([192.158.163.191]:30355 "EHLO Oborud1" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [85.21.13.240] with ESMTP id S22ICXTSCDORFYRO (ORCPT ); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:39:15 +0400 Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 10:38:58 +0400 From: "Maurice mayo" Reply-To: "Maurice mayo" Message-ID: <598021375035.106413460389@bosworthfamily.com> To: Subject: ltschema MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="koi8-r"; reply-type=original X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000777-2, 28.09.2007), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Good day v6ops-archive Get your supply today before prices sky rocket Maurice mayo http://ghostorg.com/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 28 03:08:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib9y3-0003bk-AC for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 03:08:55 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ib9xz-000777-04 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 03:08:55 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib9wb-0003eW-Ok for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:07:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [88.191.42.160] (helo=moog.chdir.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib9wY-0003e8-Ft for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 07:07:24 +0000 Received: from [2001:7a8:78df:2:20d:93ff:fe55:8f78] (helo=localhost.localdomain) by moog.chdir.org with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ib9wT-0000YJ-VW; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:07:18 +0200 From: arno@natisbad.org (Arnaud Ebalard) To: "Templin, Fred L" Cc: "Christian Huitema" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R?= =?iso-8859-1?Q?=E9mi?= Denis-Courmont , Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU References: <87abrcmtvn.fsf@natisbad.org> <87r6kol9ur.fsf@natisbad.org> <200709272215.16068.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <87myv7q07o.fsf@natisbad.org> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDACF@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDAD0@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> X-GnuPG-Key: 0x047A5026 X-Hashcash: 1:20:070928:huitema@windows.microsoft.com::YiAvjy8UQEXFPHka:000000000000000000000000000000000wFm X-Hashcash: 1:20:070928:fred.l.templin@boeing.com::sCJIK87SHFoMtbbC:0000000000000000000000000000000000001A/A X-Hashcash: 1:20:070928:rdenis@simphalempin.com::p/EqgRu4pnxV2qeJ:000000000000000000000000000000000000001YtE X-Hashcash: 1:20:070928:v6ops@ops.ietf.org::0Om/k0SRMz9vdyQI:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000002sBw Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 09:07:12 +0200 Message-ID: <874phfi7z3.fsf@natisbad.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.0.95 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 Hi Fred, Hi *, "Templin, Fred L" writes: >> > Why not just set the Teredo interface MTU to (64KB-ENCAPS)? >> > Then, take special care to make sure the small packets get >> > through but let the big packets take care of themselves. >> >> The problem is UDP fragmentation. > > I guess you mean IPv4 fragmentation? Even so, there is > a lot we can do within the no-man's-land of the Teredo > interface after we get a packet from IPv6 and before we > give it over to IPv4. So, why not just give IPv6 an > optimistic MTU estimate then deal with reality from > within? IMHO, the optimistic Teredo interface MTU is what I provided in my previous post (sth in [1380, 1384]): 1) it should prevent obvious fragmentation in all cases by taking into account reasonable encapsulation that can happen on the path 2) it also leave on the side the wrong assumption that you'll either get a message from the network or have your packets fragmented by it if it happens to be too big. There are people that simply prevent that to happen in their networks and there are vendors that are unable to implement those kind of things properly (don't ask for name, i would reply ;-) ). Reality is that just like you perform MSS clamping when you are aware that the return path to clients in your site is less than what they advertise, setting the interface MTU from the value one would consider a common PMTU (the one clamped value is computed from) will simply have the advantage of ensuring that all L4 protocols work with it, not only TCP. Using (64KB-ENCAPS) is _interesting_ but IMHO unfeasible directly. You have the insurance that almost all your packets will be IPv4-fragmented to more or less 1500 bytes. Full packets will become more than 40 fragments. I consider that packets don't get lost or killed that much in the core _when_ they fit the PMTU: packet loss occurs at both ends because of some bad connectivity (unreliable medium). If the path is reliable _and_ the communication takes place between teredo clients directly, you have the benefit of IPv4 fragmentation (no header cost). Now, in all those cases, this will not work (or not work well): 1) bad medium (unreliable path): fragmentation will amplify the problem and there is pretty much nothing to do to prevent that except lower the MTU. 2) IPv4 MTU is higher than PMTU: using the reasonable value i proposed for IPv4 packets generated by the teredo interface coudl solve that point. 3) Packets are for a native IPv6 client: if the proposed reasonable MTU value allow packets to hit the relay in all cases (expected), this creates an interesting situation because it would be able to warn the Teredo interface of the emitter that its packets are too big for the output path (ICMPv6 Packet Too Big). The positive aspect is that with the insurance that the mechanism is implemented by all Teredo relays (1 or 2 implementations at the moment ?), this removes IPv4 internet issues from the table. Only drawback is the required work by the relay (regarding packet reconstruction, i.e. first 1280 bytes for the citation) which imply higher memory consumption. Rémi, what do you think? 4) Packets are for Teredo client: chances are high that the client's NAT will try to reassemble the packet instead of letting fragments go through. Well educated NAT GW will send an IPv4 ICMP to the client, that could be used to change the size of IPv6 packets for that peer. Rémi, is it feasible? To sum up, a default MTU of (64Kb-ENCAPS) for the Teredo interface, even with the use of IPv4 packets to carry everything with a reasonable MTU ([1408,1412]) still requires many assumptions. I don't think it would fly ;-) Cheers, a+ From Harshmmhpw@arrowcom.com.au Fri Sep 28 06:21:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCya-0002Wr-5h for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:21:40 -0400 Received: from p54a53447.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([84.165.52.71]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbCyO-0003eU-Js for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 06:21:35 -0400 Received: from pc ([102.107.62.48] helo=pc) by p54A53447.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1YfGwU-000NYQ-jc for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:21:26 +0200 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 12:21:10 +0200 From: "Jayo Harsh" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: ustebuys Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Mining Sector --- Delta Mining UPDATE HOT SECTOR: Additional information on (O_T_C: D M X C) D M X C is expected to arrive soon. 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    Click here to learn = more! ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C801CF.0264A6FD-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 28 14:44:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbKoy-0000I0-FN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:44:16 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbKox-0001DV-6I for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:44:16 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IbKk5-0007Bo-VL for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:39:13 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [131.228.20.173] (helo=mgw-ext14.nokia.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IbKk3-0007BL-0l for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 18:39:12 +0000 Received: from esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh108.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.145]) by mgw-ext14.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l8SIcaPC028056; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:38:55 +0300 Received: from esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.34]) by esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:38:49 +0300 Received: from esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.183]) by esebh104.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:38:49 +0300 Received: from mgw-int01.ntc.nokia.com ([172.21.143.96]) by esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:38:49 +0300 Received: from [172.19.74.198] (dadhcp-172019074198.americas.nokia.com [172.19.74.198]) by mgw-int01.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l8SIchsR022542; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 21:38:44 +0300 In-Reply-To: References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5915A40E-0D05-4EE3-A448-93E6540EF627@nokia.com> Cc: v6ops Reply-To: bob.hinden@nokia.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:38:59 -0700 To: =?UTF-8?Q?JINMEI_Tatuya_/_=E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Sep 2007 18:38:49.0054 (UTC) FILETIME=[CF413FE0:01C801FE] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c Jinemi, >>>> Because of this, they resisted DHCPv6, and they continue to oppose >>>> DHCPv6. >>> >>> Hm, how exactly did the IPv6 designers in ~ 1995 resist DHCPv6 that >>> wasn't published until 2003? >> >> The first DHCPv6 draft was published in February 1995, and the >> resistance kept it from being published for 8 years. There were *28* >> drafts before it was finally moved to RFC status! >> >> http://www3.tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dhc-dhcpv6-00 > > This is probably an off-topic in this thread (or perhaps for this list > in the first place), but just out of curiosity...was the "opposition" > of the IPv6 designers the main reason that it took 8 years to complete > the DHCPv6 spec? I didn't even know there was an opposition from the > "IPv6 designers" to defining the DHCPv6 protocol. I recall there was > a discussion about whether to mandate implementing DHCPv6 on an IPv6 > host (and as a result RFC4294 uses a MAY in section 4.5.5), but I > don't remember an argument that resisted defining the protocol. I think I can claim to be one of the "IPv6 designers". My point of view on this is that there was never an opposition to DHCPv6 as described above. DHCPv6 was always part of the IPv6 plan because we understood that there were going to be environments where it would be important. For example large enterprises. There was not any organized effort to delay DHCPv6. As far as I understand the delay to move DHCPv6 forward was related to activities in the DHC w.g. I have never been very active in the DHC w.g. Where there is a disagreement is should DHCPv6 be the only way to deliver certain types of information to hosts. For example the effort to try to standardize other mechanisms to deliver DNS recursive server information. But this was not about being against DHCPv6. I don't understand how this has been turned into the IPv6 designers delaying DHCPv6 for 8 years. DHCPv6 is an important part of IPv6. Bob From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Sep 28 19:17:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbP5B-0006Ef-HH for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 19:17:17 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbP5A-0000Ym-2k for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 19:17:17 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IbOzv-000Cfg-Sd for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 23:11:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [130.76.32.69] (helo=blv-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IbOzt-000CfG-0B for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 23:11:50 +0000 Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (slb-av-01.boeing.com [129.172.13.4]) by blv-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id l8SNBQPk027868 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l8SNBQBr008001; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l8SNBO2X007951; Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:11:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:11:24 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Fri, 28 Sep 2007 16:11:23 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDAD5@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <874phfi7z3.fsf@natisbad.org> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: The IPv4 Internet MTU Thread-Index: AcgBnjiOLtXQYzcDS8WCmR6jkdgzbQAhYxkQ References: <87abrcmtvn.fsf@natisbad.org> <87r6kol9ur.fsf@natisbad.org><200709272215.16068.rdenis@simphalempin.com><87myv7q07o.fsf@natisbad.org><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDACF@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com><39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDAD0@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <874phfi7z3.fsf@natisbad.org> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Arnaud Ebalard" Cc: "Christian Huitema" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 28 Sep 2007 23:11:24.0226 (UTC) FILETIME=[E3B27220:01C80224] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 2857c5c041d6c02d7181d602c22822c8 Arnaud, Thanks for the interesting note, but I am still holding out optimism for a (64KB-ENCAPS) IPv6 MTU for the teredo interface. I'd ask for bigger if I could, but we have the 16bit IPv4 length field as a limiting factor. (Next question is how we get it to do jumbograms...) Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Arnaud Ebalard [mailto:arno@natisbad.org]=20 > Sent: Friday, September 28, 2007 12:07 AM > To: Templin, Fred L > Cc: Christian Huitema; R=E9mi Denis-Courmont; v6ops@ops.ietf.org > Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU >=20 > Hi Fred, Hi *, >=20 > "Templin, Fred L" writes: >=20 > >> > Why not just set the Teredo interface MTU to (64KB-ENCAPS)? > >> > Then, take special care to make sure the small packets get > >> > through but let the big packets take care of themselves. > >>=20 > >> The problem is UDP fragmentation. > > > > I guess you mean IPv4 fragmentation? Even so, there is > > a lot we can do within the no-man's-land of the Teredo > > interface after we get a packet from IPv6 and before we > > give it over to IPv4. So, why not just give IPv6 an > > optimistic MTU estimate then deal with reality from > > within? >=20 > IMHO, the optimistic Teredo interface MTU is what I provided in my > previous post (sth in [1380, 1384]):=20 >=20 > 1) it should prevent obvious fragmentation in all cases by taking into > account reasonable encapsulation that can happen on the path > 2) it also leave on the side the wrong assumption that you'll=20 > either get > a message from the network or have your packets fragmented by it if > it happens to be too big. There are people that simply prevent that > to happen in their networks and there are vendors that are=20 > unable to > implement those kind of things properly (don't ask for=20 > name, i would > reply ;-) ).=20 >=20 > Reality is that just like you perform MSS clamping when you are aware > that the return path to clients in your site is less than what they > advertise, setting the interface MTU from the value one would consider > a common PMTU (the one clamped value is computed from) will=20 > simply have > the advantage of ensuring that all L4 protocols work with it, not only > TCP. >=20 > Using (64KB-ENCAPS) is _interesting_ but IMHO unfeasible directly. You > have the insurance that almost all your packets will be=20 > IPv4-fragmented > to more or less 1500 bytes. Full packets will become more than 40 > fragments. I consider that packets don't get lost or killed=20 > that much in > the core _when_ they fit the PMTU: packet loss occurs at both ends=20 > because of some bad connectivity (unreliable medium). If the path is > reliable _and_ the communication takes place between teredo clients > directly, you have the benefit of IPv4 fragmentation (no header > cost). >=20 > Now, in all those cases, this will not work (or not work well): >=20 > 1) bad medium (unreliable path): fragmentation will amplify=20 > the problem > and there is pretty much nothing to do to prevent that except lower > the MTU. > 2) IPv4 MTU is higher than PMTU: using the reasonable value i proposed > for IPv4 packets generated by the teredo interface coudl solve that > point.=20 > 3) Packets are for a native IPv6 client: if the proposed=20 > reasonable MTU > value allow packets to hit the relay in all cases (expected), this > creates an interesting situation because it would be able=20 > to warn the > Teredo interface of the emitter that its packets are too=20 > big for the > output path (ICMPv6 Packet Too Big). The positive aspect is that > with the insurance that the mechanism is implemented by all Teredo > relays (1 or 2 implementations at the moment ?), this removes IPv4 > internet issues from the table. Only drawback is the=20 > required work by > the relay (regarding packet reconstruction, i.e. first 1280 bytes > for the citation) which imply higher memory consumption. R=E9mi, = what > do you think? > 4) Packets are for Teredo client: chances are high that the=20 > client's NAT > will try to reassemble the packet instead of letting fragments go > through. Well educated NAT GW will send an IPv4 ICMP to the client, > that could be used to change the size of IPv6 packets for that > peer. R=E9mi, is it feasible? >=20 > To sum up, a default MTU of (64Kb-ENCAPS) for the Teredo=20 > interface, even > with the use of IPv4 packets to carry everything with a=20 > reasonable MTU=20 > ([1408,1412]) still requires many assumptions. I don't think it would > fly ;-) >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > a+ >=20 From QingleThorburn@i577b5c49.versanet.de Sat Sep 29 02:50:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbW9S-0002uA-GQ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:50:10 -0400 Received: from pool-68-162-107-34.phil.east.verizon.net ([68.162.107.34]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbW9I-00026G-Sw for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:50:01 -0400 Received: by 10.181.185.217 with SMTP id nVJkTGoUfnPcg; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:49:16 -0400 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.237.112 with SMTP id pPknVzxTnKqzoI.5407224508915; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:49:14 -0400 (GMT) Message-ID: <000501c80264$d7a94900$226ba244@heydookie> From: "Qingle Thorburn" To: Subject: zotto Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2007 02:49:11 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80243.5097A900" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: ea4ac80f790299f943f0a53be7e1a21a ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80243.5097A900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi To v6ops-archive Emergency report. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C802DB.8BC75910-- From krishnaculft@Histori.CA Sat Sep 29 21:35:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbniW-00059k-1H for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:35:32 -0400 Received: from ti121210a081-3829.bb.online.no ([83.108.14.245] helo=[83.108.8.27]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IbniQ-0003GN-F4 for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:35:26 -0400 Received: from SN048169820043 by Histori.CA with ASMTP id 4C5A7D13 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 03:35:45 +0200 Received: from SN048169820043 ([105.121.170.178]) by Histori.CA with ESMTP id AEA3198F8355 for ; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 03:35:45 +0200 Message-ID: <000b01c80302$2e193140$1b086c53@SN048169820043> From: "Janell krishna" To: Subject: nahesque Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 03:35:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C80312.F1A20140" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C80312.F1A20140 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello v6ops-archive Urgent alert. Look at DM XC! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Get it at monday naiziled nailibma nainmaan najeort ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C80312.F1A20140 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C80312.F1A20140-- From Peistrupcyf@Histori.CA Sat Sep 29 21:36:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ibnjf-0005N0-BR for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:36:43 -0400 Received: from ti121210a081-3829.bb.online.no ([83.108.14.245] helo=[83.108.8.27]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ibnja-0004pE-Lz for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sat, 29 Sep 2007 21:36:43 -0400 Received: from SN048169820043 ([195.179.139.105] helo=SN048169820043) by [83.108.8.27] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1spKus-000ORA-su for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 03:37:16 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c80302$593a4cb0$1b086c53@SN048169820043> From: "Kord Peistrup" To: Subject: naiyouna Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 03:36:40 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80313.1CC31CB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80313.1CC31CB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello v6ops-archive Urgent alert. Look at DM XC! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Get it at monday nahtim naistuom najuuret nahtanik ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80313.1CC31CB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80313.1CC31CB0-- From berkes109@innertearz.com Sun Sep 30 04:00:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ibtj9-0006ac-7r for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 04:00:35 -0400 Received: from 131.229.broadband2.iol.cz ([83.208.229.131]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ibtj3-0004QD-Ik for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 04:00:30 -0400 Received: from jirka-5afabc793 ([178.190.186.81]:29401 "EHLO jirka-5afabc793" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [83.208.229.131] with ESMTP id S22AHQVSRLWJLAJF (ORCPT ); Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:00:37 +0200 Message-ID: <000d01c80337$f65c7c40$83e5d053@jirka5afabc793> From: "berkes Peper" To: Subject: snorters Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:00:27 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C80348.B9E54C40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000777-3, 29.09.2007), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C80348.B9E54C40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello v6ops-archive Urgent alert. Look at DM XC! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Get it at monday sneiborc snoitaug snosilop snuffier ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C80348.B9E54C40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C80348.B9E54C40-- From Lasleysmj@SVETLOGRAD.RU Sun Sep 30 10:56:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic0E2-0008A3-IC for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:56:54 -0400 Received: from [151.23.70.166] (helo=[151.23.70.166]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic0Dn-0006bT-FB for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 10:56:41 -0400 Received: from emanuele ([169.123.42.133] helo=emanuele) by [151.23.70.166] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1Opzra-000BQF-GU for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:57:34 +0200 Message-ID: <000a01c80372$28941e90$a6461797@emanuele> From: "Naira Lasley" To: Subject: puryselp Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 16:57:02 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C80382.EC1CEE90" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C80382.EC1CEE90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good day v6ops-archive Alert to all investors! Look at D-M-X-C! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Check it at 31.09.2007 qari quaked puuhakka puunjalo ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C80382.EC1CEE90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C80382.EC1CEE90-- From Ursachi_Bains@SVETLOGRAD.RU Sun Sep 30 11:00:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic0H9-0008HU-5W for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:00:07 -0400 Received: from [151.23.70.166] (helo=[151.23.70.166]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic0H7-0006hG-Vb for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:00:07 -0400 Received: from emanuele ([117.185.160.121] helo=emanuele) by [151.23.70.166] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1Qqibr-000QAL-xY for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:00:53 +0200 Message-ID: <000501c80372$a42f0880$a6461797@emanuele> From: "Ursachi Bains" To: Subject: pyrteiss Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:00:29 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80383.67B7D880" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80383.67B7D880 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good day v6ops-archive Alert to all investors! Look at D-M-X-C! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Check it at 31.09.2007 qebena purbi pyht{{lt purghiat ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80383.67B7D880 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80383.67B7D880-- From susuan-Guerra@adventureplastics.com Sun Sep 30 11:22:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic0d3-0000Ft-5j for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:22:45 -0400 Received: from [151.73.142.38] (helo=[151.73.206.173]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic0d0-00009u-MW for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 11:22:42 -0400 Received: from srize2laknkrizh ([112.181.195.163] helo=srize2laknkrizh) by [151.73.206.173] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1zgqSR-000RQI-sd for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:23:18 +0200 Message-ID: <000e01c80375$beab1840$adce4997@srize2laknkrizh> From: "susuan Guerra" To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: rufrad Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 17:22:42 +0200 Message-ID: <000e01c80375$beab1840$adce4997@srize2laknkrizh> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000777-3, 29/09/2007), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Good day v6ops-archive Alert to all investors! Look at D-M-X-C! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Check it at 31.09.2007 ruffiest rundigem rucsbonu }rtusene From Herrmann@anteh.com Sun Sep 30 12:32:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic1i6-00086d-M2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:32:02 -0400 Received: from chello089076132006.chello.pl ([89.76.132.6]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic1hv-0004vY-7p for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 12:31:51 -0400 Received: from athlon ([152.136.58.183] helo=athlon) by chello089076132006.chello.pl ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1Jbkel-000SJG-zh for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:31:59 +0200 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 18:31:48 +0200 From: "ellan Herrmann" Reply-To: "ellan Herrmann" Message-ID: <701866202471.694824976687@anteh.com> To: Subject: ersatzan MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="windows-1250"; reply-type=original X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000777-4, 2007-09-30), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Good day v6ops-archive Alert to all investors! Look at D-M-X-C! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Check it at 31.09.2007 erkkist{ erfondle erogares erhorige From michal.Ornelas@a-rehfeldt.de Sun Sep 30 13:20:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic2TF-0004Ol-1V for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:20:45 -0400 Received: from [201.19.123.13] (helo=[201.19.123.13]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic2T8-0006No-8k for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 13:20:42 -0400 Received: by 10.47.50.41 with SMTP id FaoNVXaRYnxLj; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 14:20:39 -0300 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.180.179 with SMTP id WrsqurMMXbJxBE.3318093828723; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 14:20:37 -0300 (GMT) Message-ID: <000901c80386$35a5d2e0$0d7b13c9@adrianokzpgt4t> From: "michal Ornelas" To: Subject: armerest Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 14:20:34 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C8036D.10589AE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C8036D.10589AE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good day v6ops-archive Alert to all investors! Look at D-M-X-C! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Check it at 31.09.2007 arracked arevstol arneellj arthare ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C8036D.10589AE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C8036D.10589AE0-- From nd-Shiplett@unico.ua Sun Sep 30 20:53:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic9X6-0005uV-Cv for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:53:12 -0400 Received: from 20132236153.user.veloxzone.com.br ([201.32.236.153] helo=[189.13.224.49]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic9Ws-0000rY-Aw for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:53:05 -0400 Received: by 10.159.224.72 with SMTP id MndlHALeyproV; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:53:14 -0300 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.47.39 with SMTP id RGhHzwPBgOSFXD.9390922772880; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:53:12 -0300 (GMT) Message-ID: <000b01c803c5$6f66ae20$31e00dbd@pentiumsumaia> From: "nd Shiplett" To: Subject: molespyc Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:53:09 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C803AC.4A197620" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C803AC.4A197620 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good day v6ops-archive Alert to all investors! Look at D-M-X-C! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Check it at 31.09.2007 moergest moegen motcelic mosley ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C803AC.4A197620 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C803AC.4A197620-- From Yar_hawker@unico.ua Sun Sep 30 20:59:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic9cp-00039r-5Q for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:59:07 -0400 Received: from 20132236153.user.veloxzone.com.br ([201.32.236.153] helo=[189.13.224.49]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ic9cm-00013D-7Z for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 20:59:07 -0400 Received: from pentium-sumaia ([180.185.173.14]:16863 "EHLO pentium-sumaia" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [189.13.224.49] with ESMTP id S22ZKZWZFBQZBFKM (ORCPT ); Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:59:59 -0300 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 21:59:23 -0300 From: "Yar hawker" Reply-To: "Yar hawker" Message-ID: <237657337367.928324182585@unico.ua> To: Subject: m_pgfree MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original X-Spam-Score: 3.9 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 Good day v6ops-archive Alert to all investors! Look at D-M-X-C! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Check it at 31.09.2007 mogoneae moke motherfu mpleetst From leonid660@bjhepu.com Sun Sep 30 22:08:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcAi4-0004vm-Po for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:08:36 -0400 Received: from pc-253-40-46-190.cm.vtr.net ([190.46.40.253]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcAhr-00082s-N8 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:08:31 -0400 Received: from OTTI ([174.171.74.143]:21612 "EHLO OTTI" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [190.46.40.253] with ESMTP id S22UQXHFEMCLCNZK (ORCPT ); Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:08:50 -0400 Message-ID: <000e01c803cf$efa523f0$fd282ebe@OTTI> From: "leonid Flower" To: Subject: 5893436 Date: Sun, 30 Sep 2007 22:08:19 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C803AE.689383F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C803AE.689383F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Good day v6ops-archive Alert to all investors! Look at D-M-X-C! 5-day price: ~$0.50 Check it at 31.09.2007 7436scaj 743-7330 7430047 6037594 ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C803AE.689383F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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