From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 01 03:06:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcFMe-0001kQ-LN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:06:48 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcFMY-0006fe-F2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:06:48 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IcFGG-00027r-54 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 07:00:12 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-201.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [156.154.24.138] (helo=ns3.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IcFGD-00027K-B8 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 07:00:10 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns3.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E7E2175BD; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 07:00:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IcFG5-0003wL-T3; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:00:01 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-06.txt Message-Id: Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:00:01 -0400 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: f66b12316365a3fe519e75911daf28a8 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : IPv6 Unicast Address Assignment Considerations Author(s) : C. Systems, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-06.txt Pages : 30 Date : 2007-10-01 One fundamental aspect of any IP communications infrastructure is its addressing plan. With its new address architecture and allocation policies, the introduction of IPv6 into a network means that network designers and operators need to reconsider their existing approaches to network addressing. Lack of guidelines on handling this aspect of network design could slow down the deployment and integration of IPv6. This document aims to provide the information and recommendations relevant to planning the addressing aspects of IPv6 deployments. The document also provides IPv6 addressing case studies for both an enterprise and an ISP network. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-06.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-06.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-06.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-10-01025417.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-06.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-06.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-10-01025417.I-D\@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 01 03:13:19 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcFSx-0006GI-8F for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:13:19 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcFSv-0006ot-Ut for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 03:13:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IcFS1-000351-Nr for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 07:12:21 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IcFRy-00034V-Gt for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 07:12:20 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.21,215,1188770400"; d="scan'208";a="154530522" Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Oct 2007 09:12:04 +0200 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l917C3pR005192 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:12:03 +0200 Received: from xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-332.cisco.com [144.254.231.87]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l917BjFt028205 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 07:12:03 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com ([144.254.231.91]) by xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:11:53 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: FW: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-06 Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:11:51 +0200 Message-ID: <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D38188DB06@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-06 Thread-Index: AcgD9/FLL2jbBV4pQ4WaF83BSrDNDgAADYqQ From: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" To: "IETF V6OPS WG" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Oct 2007 07:11:53.0652 (UTC) FILETIME=[58333F40:01C803FA] X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: SMEX-8.0.0.1181-5.000.1023-15452.000 X-TM-AS-Result: No-1.459900-8.000000-31 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2219; t=1191222723; x=1192086723; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=gvandeve@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Gunter=20Van=20de=20Velde=20(gvandeve)=22=20 |Subject:=20FW=3A=20New=20Version=20Notification=20for=20draft-ietf-v6ops -addcon-06=20 |Sender:=20; bh=ZoPhPAEyFsbchcyf69Vac1DSQpvhFY1bqYwZlHqMA1U=; b=PEBRvm+u9lPbuYAptU8P/dj8PNx9LiKYp43MghOzK9P34qRAES9XFtagsd17VDv7g32ae+gc 8pvSDW7VbIOXW6+Nz4e6ByIgrc/0Gm8cS1PSNUM7lcdMAfFoll7bP0S0; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=gvandeve@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Dear All, This mail is to note that the fully updated version for the 'IPv6 Address Considerations' and can be found at http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-06.txt Only change is a note in the appendix: "All subnet sizes used in this appendix are for practical visualization and do not dictate RIR policy." The document was submitted through automatic draft submission tool and=20 went through WG Last Call and should be ready for further IESG progressing.=20 Last update -04 to -05 was idnits corrections, while this version was updated=20 with a phrase to disclaim the used IPv6 prefix lenghts in the case-studies. We have been receiving notes from people that are awaiting the guidance in=20 this document in RFC format and would lik eto progress forward. Kind Regards, G/ -----Original Message----- From: IETF I-D Submission Tool [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org]=20 Sent: Monday, October 01, 2007 3:54 PM To: gunter (mailer list) Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Chip Popoviciu (cpopovic); tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk; Olaf.Bonness@t-systems.com; HahnC@t-systems.com Subject: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-06=20 A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-06.txt has been successfuly submitted by Gunter Van de Velde and posted to the IETF repository. Filename: draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon Revision: 06 Title: IPv6 Unicast Address Assignment Considerations Creation_date: 2007-10-01 WG ID: v6ops Number_of_pages: 30 Abstract: One fundamental aspect of any IP communications infrastructure is its addressing plan. With its new address architecture and allocation policies, the introduction of IPv6 into a network means that network designers and operators need to reconsider their existing approaches to network addressing. Lack of guidelines on handling this aspect of network design could slow down the deployment and integration of IPv6. This document aims to provide the information and recommendations relevant to planning the addressing aspects of IPv6 deployments. The document also provides IPv6 addressing case studies for both an enterprise and an ISP network. =20 The IETF Secretariat. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 01 04:10:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcGM2-0004It-RL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 04:10:14 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcGM1-00005d-L3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 04:10:14 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IcGJU-0007lE-Am for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:07:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.2 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [202.249.10.124] (helo=shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IcGJR-0007jF-7w for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 08:07:34 +0000 Received: from nm-pptp229.isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp (unknown [IPv6:2001:380:129:0:217:f2ff:fe40:2857]) by shuttle.wide.toshiba.co.jp (Postfix) with ESMTP id B14D673020; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 17:07:13 +0900 (JST) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:07:10 +0900 Message-ID: From: JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= To: bob.hinden@nokia.com Cc: v6ops Subject: Re: [69ATTENDEES] DHCP In-Reply-To: <5915A40E-0D05-4EE3-A448-93E6540EF627@nokia.com> References: <7C4E4406-0EA7-4D36-91DB-E3DD653E1E52@ucd.ie> <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3817504F1@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> <20070912133721.GM69215@Space.Net> <2C999953-18C3-404A-8E1B-2321D6C0AF79@ucd.ie> <20070913063729.GX69215@Space.Net> <20070913090740.GA29959@borg.c-l-i.net> <908AE91F-C2F8-48B7-8AE5-446F62A8ABFC@muada.com> <20070913121154.GA4759@borg.c-l-i.net> <5915A40E-0D05-4EE3-A448-93E6540EF627@nokia.com> User-Agent: Wanderlust/2.14.0 (Africa) Emacs/22.0 Mule/5.0 (SAKAKI) MIME-Version: 1.0 (generated by SEMI 1.14.6 - "Maruoka") Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 At Fri, 28 Sep 2007 11:38:59 -0700, Bob Hinden wrote: > > This is probably an off-topic in this thread (or perhaps for this list > > in the first place), but just out of curiosity...was the "opposition" > > of the IPv6 designers the main reason that it took 8 years to complete > > the DHCPv6 spec? I didn't even know there was an opposition from the > > "IPv6 designers" to defining the DHCPv6 protocol. I recall there was > > a discussion about whether to mandate implementing DHCPv6 on an IPv6 > > host (and as a result RFC4294 uses a MAY in section 4.5.5), but I > > don't remember an argument that resisted defining the protocol. > > I think I can claim to be one of the "IPv6 designers". > > My point of view on this is that there was never an opposition to > DHCPv6 as described above. DHCPv6 was always part of the IPv6 plan > because we understood that there were going to be environments where > it would be important. For example large enterprises. There was not > any organized effort to delay DHCPv6. As far as I understand the > delay to move DHCPv6 forward was related to activities in the DHC > w.g. I have never been very active in the DHC w.g. [snip] > I don't understand how this has been turned into the IPv6 designers > delaying DHCPv6 for 8 years. DHCPv6 is an important part of IPv6. Thanks for the clarification. That actually matches my understanding of the history. > Where there is a disagreement is should DHCPv6 be the only way to > deliver certain types of information to hosts. For example the > effort to try to standardize other mechanisms to deliver DNS > recursive server information. But this was not about being against > DHCPv6. Indeed, and I think this is exactly the point of what we're seeing now. That is, the point is - should RA be the only way to deliver default router address / on-link prefix information just like the previous discussion of - should DHCPv6 be the only way to deliver the recursive DNS server addresses Opinions may vary on these points as we are seeing, but I don't think it's a matter of "DHCPv6 lovers" vs "DHCPv6 haters". JINMEI, Tatuya Communication Platform Lab. Corporate R&D Center, Toshiba Corp. jinmei@isl.rdc.toshiba.co.jp From Geburtopfx@afghanbc.com Mon Oct 01 06:01:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcI5S-0007Ly-CM for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 06:01:14 -0400 Received: from [77.192.110.38] (helo=[80.119.239.191]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcI5N-0006JM-GQ for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 06:01:10 -0400 Received: from thierry-9897b65 ([177.135.116.121]:16643 "EHLO thierry-9897b65" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [80.119.239.191] with ESMTP id S22WHQMTLHPOAYHG (ORCPT ); Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:01:25 +0200 Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:01:06 +0200 From: "Ramiro Geburt" Reply-To: "Ramiro Geburt" Message-ID: <956638185392.482677646092@afghanbc.com> To: Subject: ihmemaas MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original X-Spam-Score: 4.0 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Morning, v6ops-archive Alert, alert, alert! Start trade D.M.X.C Five day price: ~$0.50 ihcinih igmenten iglovnoc ihhcunna From gottliebgjes@afghanbc.com Mon Oct 01 06:04:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcI8s-0000Q7-EB for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 06:04:46 -0400 Received: from [77.192.110.38] (helo=[80.119.239.191]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcI8r-0006SX-RQ for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 06:04:46 -0400 Received: from thierry-9897b65 ([199.160.86.118] helo=thierry-9897b65) by [80.119.239.191] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1vzRsk-000ONA-kY for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:04:52 +0200 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 7.1.0.9 Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 12:04:42 +0200 To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org From: "haidar gottlieb" Subject: ihfm Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d17f825e43c9aed4fd65b7edddddec89 Morning, v6ops-archive Alert, alert, alert! Start trade D.M.X.C Five day price: ~$0.50 ihmett[ ihpsoirc ihcikies ihgesrap From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 01 09:12:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcL4z-0006CK-VP for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 09:12:57 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcL4t-0001WP-P9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 09:12:57 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IcL0h-0006bW-1n for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 13:08:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [171.71.176.72] (helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IcL0e-0006b8-LM for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 13:08:29 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.21,217,1188802800"; d="scan'208";a="529965375" Received: from sj-dkim-1.cisco.com ([171.71.179.21]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Oct 2007 06:08:28 -0700 Received: from sj-core-2.cisco.com (sj-core-2.cisco.com [171.71.177.254]) by sj-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l91D8S0V025517 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 06:08:28 -0700 Received: from xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com (xbh-sjc-221.cisco.com [128.107.191.63]) by sj-core-2.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l91D8SSg017110 for ; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 13:08:28 GMT Received: from xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com ([171.70.151.174]) by xbh-sjc-221.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 1 Oct 2007 06:08:27 -0700 Received: from [10.0.0.57] ([10.21.68.236]) by xfe-sjc-211.amer.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 1 Oct 2007 06:08:27 -0700 In-Reply-To: <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D38188DB06@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> References: <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D38188DB06@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: "IETF V6OPS WG" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Fred Baker Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-addcon-06 Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 09:08:16 -0400 To: Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.2 (Tiger) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 01 Oct 2007 13:08:27.0875 (UTC) FILETIME=[28269B30:01C8042C] DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=420; t=1191244108; x=1192108108; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim1004; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20New=20Version=20Notification=20for=20draft-ietf-v6ops -addcon-06=20 |Sender:=20; bh=U5j0p0VdM02NOQCgrMKqGe1760mKOkZjd4yP2HNp8LI=; b=BWRwRUrcE4X8TR6zS1aMJLz6MGkB9LXe1/0f5y5RJ+avuKSU9LCXx/W5YPdCmwXbUT0k0VCJ Tu52HFeLFD1t8uuiR/o0gvVQ5PJJIfAiz6SHer2LV9q/1jeWvM0HxJSzzN5B66E/v8K+1lVVrU DkRr2UzFtNixIl4U4tQVINftQ=; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-1; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass (si g from cisco.com/sjdkim1004 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On Oct 1, 2007, at 3:11 AM, Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve) wrote: > The document was submitted through automatic draft submission tool and > went through WG Last Call and should be ready for further IESG > progressing. thanks. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iD8DBQFHAPFAbjEdbHIsm0MRAsxxAJ9rAiW6RQEcoRec9866r99ikggTkQCfevc9 JdjcDHe2uOOSTJqM0MQ4GEU= =gtWD -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jamie@mccabe.com Mon Oct 01 12:10:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcNqt-0000BX-2O for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:10:35 -0400 Received: from [125.33.189.157] (helo=125.33.189.157) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcNqr-0006Xg-SN for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:10:34 -0400 Received: from [125.33.189.157] by dns1.valueweb.com; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:14:54 +0000 Message-ID: <000901c80446$0324e190$610f23b0@vimrks> From: "Rollins" To: Subject: fw[3]: Show your close ones you care, quit smoking today Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 14:27:31 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80446.032412D7" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 2.7 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8b431ad66d60be2d47c7bfeb879db82c This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80446.032412D7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Click here to = learn more! ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80446.032412D7-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 01 12:52:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcOV5-0002Ds-9G for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:52:07 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcOUw-0005wS-6s for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 12:52:05 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IcOQI-00002F-Hs for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:47:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [81.187.81.51] (helo=smtp.aaisp.net.uk) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IcOQF-00001r-Qe for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 16:47:09 +0000 Received: from 247.254.187.81.in-addr.arpa ([81.187.254.247]) by smtp.aaisp.net.uk with esmtps (SSLv3:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.62) (envelope-from ) id 1IcOQD-0001uS-V9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:47:06 +0100 Message-ID: <47012513.7050904@dial.pipex.com> Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:49:23 +0100 From: Elwyn Davies User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.13 (Windows/20070809) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'v6ops@ops.ietf.org '" Subject: Security overview published as RFC 4942 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -100.5 (---------------------------------------------------) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed The "IPv6 Transition/Coexistence Security Considerations" document has now been published as RFC 4942 http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc4942.txt?number=4942 Regards, Elwyn From gershom@ppmusic.com Mon Oct 01 17:02:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcSPU-0007J0-Pu for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:02:36 -0400 Received: from pool-162-84-150-130.ny5030.east.verizon.net ([162.84.150.130]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcSPU-0005hU-D0 for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:02:36 -0400 Received: from [162.84.150.130] by ns3.propagation.net; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 21:02:28 +0000 Message-ID: <000501c8046e$03f45ae9$60bbaab5@icesdy> From: "aguinaldo sherry" To: Subject: Serious business in a sphere of financial services. 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If you received this message in error, or would like to unsubscribe, please send a blank email to: NicolasPowersUP@gmail.com From Miko351@moritz-john.com Mon Oct 01 18:41:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcTxe-0006Hc-Fd for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:41:58 -0400 Received: from 7187.dsl.winshop.com.au ([210.9.123.157]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcTxZ-0007cC-Re for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 18:41:54 -0400 Received: from dalton ([139.191.42.107]:17598 "EHLO dalton" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by 7187.dsl.winshop.com.au with ESMTP id S22ITOQRXFDDPKRL (ORCPT ); Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:41:23 +1000 Message-ID: <7D3F90DF.83C5A66E@moritz-john.com> Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 08:41:13 +1000 From: "Miko Oliver" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: neksytte Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000778-0, 10/01/2007), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 CWTE: C'Watre International, Inc Trade Alert. CWTE just announced trading on the OTC. CWTE has the potential to return 5 times your money with this tight capital structure. This means the stock can see $1.50 when news is realesed. CWTE has a womens line of ageless cosmetics that is overwhelming the celebrity industry. Keep an eye for news to hit the market and create a frenzy in this stock. When investors find out who's using it, the stock could go well beyond our target. v6ops-archive, contact your broker NOW for CWTE! neknalpt nemanotu nenimatl nekoreub nenhaj nenilane From kirsten@wenleecabinkeepers.com Mon Oct 01 19:37:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcUp7-0000JI-PI for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 19:37:13 -0400 Received: from pool-71-101-12-113.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net ([71.101.12.113]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcUp3-0000JY-CM for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 19:37:09 -0400 Received: from BsHPpc ([115.129.91.143] helo=BsHPpc) by pool-71-101-12-113.tampfl.dsl-w.verizon.net ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1KPCLf-000JMD-YL for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:37:44 -0400 Message-ID: <07822269.6D9753AA@wenleecabinkeepers.com> Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 19:37:15 -0400 From: "kirsten Kem" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: angatnom Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.6 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 CWTE: C'Watre International, Inc Trade Alert. CWTE just announced trading on the OTC. CWTE has the potential to return 5 times your money with this tight capital structure. This means the stock can see $1.50 when news is realesed. CWTE has a womens line of ageless cosmetics that is overwhelming the celebrity industry. Keep an eye for news to hit the market and create a frenzy in this stock. When investors find out who's using it, the stock could go well beyond our target. v6ops-archive, contact your broker NOW for CWTE! anijoohl angof anglopho angora angefuel andelius From Pascal.Ostrom@rrbuilders.com Mon Oct 01 22:37:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcXds-0003gi-5Z for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:37:49 -0400 Received: from cpc2-broo4-0-0-cust586.renf.cable.ntl.com ([86.4.218.75]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcXdo-0004Bn-IH for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:37:45 -0400 Received: from tony ([174.105.23.96] helo=tony) by cpc2-broo4-0-0-cust586.renf.cable.ntl.com ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1ZIgmS-000DJM-Pv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 2 Oct 2007 03:38:16 +0100 Message-ID: <000901c8049d$362e9c20$4bda0456@tony> From: "Pascal Ostrom" To: Subject: datapoin Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 03:37:44 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C804A5.97F30420" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.4 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 02ec665d00de228c50c93ed6b5e4fc1a ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C804A5.97F30420 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable CWTE: C'Watre International, Inc Trade Alert. CWTE just announced trading on the OTC. CWTE has the = potential to return 5 times your money with this tight capital = structure. This means the stock can see $1.50 when news is realesed. CWTE has a = womens line of ageless cosmetics that is overwhelming the celebrity industry. Keep an eye for news to hit the market and create a frenzy in = this stock. When investors find out who's using it, the stock could go well beyond our target. v6ops-archive, contact your broker NOW for CWTE! daehelte cymba daeherom datiscos culte'es dapneple ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C804A5.97F30420 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
CWTE: C'Watre International, Inc
Trade Alert. CWTE just announced trading on = the OTC. C WTE has the potential to return 5 times your money with this tight = capital structure.
This means the stock can see $1.50 when news = is=20 realesed. CWTE has a womens line of ageless cosmetics that is = overwhelming the celebrity
industry. Keep an eye for news to hit the = market and=20 create a frenzy in this stock. When investors find out who's using it, = the=20 stock could
go well beyond our target.
v6ops-archive, contact your broker NOW for = CWTE!
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C804A5.97F30420-- From Byrke.Shave@atimelessaffair.com Tue Oct 02 07:01:57 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcfVl-00034C-FH for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 07:01:57 -0400 Received: from amarseille-156-1-41-25.w90-27.abo.wanadoo.fr ([90.27.176.25]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IcfVa-0007qE-MO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 02 Oct 2007 07:01:48 -0400 Received: from famille-trans ([102.117.27.37] helo=famille-trans) by [90.36.127.76] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1RrYvc-000OKR-wh for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:02:12 +0200 Message-ID: <000301c804e3$a437b260$4c7f245a@familletrans> From: "Byrke Shave" To: Subject: kriebels Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 13:01:53 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C804F4.67C20900" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000777-4, 30/09/2007), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C804F4.67C20900 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Crash! Boom! Bang! C.W.T.E has the potential to return 500% to your money within 7 trading = days. Hot news released today! Check this out. v6ops-archive, call ur broker NOW. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C804F4.67C20900 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C805C1.1126C680-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 03 09:16:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id45t-0008O9-Fq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:16:53 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id45s-0004aw-9H for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:16:53 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id3zs-0009Vl-Ie for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 13:10:40 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [206.123.31.2] (helo=jazz.viagenie.ca) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id3zp-0009VL-Us for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 13:10:39 +0000 Received: from [192.168.30.145] (pD9E02644.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.224.38.68]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59AA929E13CE; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:10:32 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <20070802184026.GY69215@Space.Net> References: <1E432509-E605-499E-BD91-B4DFDB65D2F0@viagenie.ca> <20070802184026.GY69215@Space.Net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <12C11D83-4DC7-4F87-9C51-6634C6ABBDC3@viagenie.ca> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:10:30 +0200 To: Gert Doering X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 Gert, you were probably looking at the -00 version. -01 version already =20 had that fix. Marc. Le 07-08-02 =E0 20:40, Gert Doering a =E9crit : > Hi, > > I'm coming a bit late to this (sorry), but something just caught my > eye: > > On Mon, Jul 23, 2007 at 12:51:28PM -0500, Marc Blanchet wrote: >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> 2.10 is somewhat incorrect on Multicast: >> >> ff00::/8 are multicast addresses [RFC4291]. They have a 4 bits >> scope >> in the address field. Only addresses having the 'E' value in the >> scope field are of global scope, all other values are local or >> reserved. Therefore, only ffXe:: routes may be advertised =20 >> outside a >> site, where X may be any value. > > I'm wondering about the word "advertised" - I've never hear anyone > use that word in the context of multicast addresses. They are not =20 > carried > in BGP (which is the typical "advertising" of routing data), and PIM > isn't exactly "advertising routes". > > So maybe the last sentence should be: > > Therefore, only ffXe:: multicast groups and the accompanying =20 > routing > protocol state may appear outside a site, where X may be any value. > > or something like this. > > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > --=20 > Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 113403 > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-=20 > Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 ----- IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 03 09:17:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id462-0000Vq-0I for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:17:02 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id460-0004bE-4E for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:17:01 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id42n-0009y1-9v for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 13:13:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [206.123.31.2] (helo=jazz.viagenie.ca) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id42k-0009xm-Ny for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 13:13:39 +0000 Received: from [192.168.30.145] (pD9E02644.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.224.38.68]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9159D29E13CE; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 09:13:36 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) X-Gpgmail-State: !signed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 15:13:31 +0200 To: Niall O'Reilly X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7aafa0432175920a4b3e118e16c5cb64 I understand your comment. However, the issues you are raising (as =20 well as others) related to 6to4 are already in the 6to4 security RFC =20 (RFC3964), which is already referenced in the 6to4 paragraph. =20 Therefore, I would suggest not to add any additional text in order to =20= not repeat what is already throughly discussed in RFC3964. Marc. Le 07-08-24 =E0 19:41, Niall O'Reilly a =E9crit : > On Thu, 2 Aug 2007 20:40:26 +0200, Gert Doering =20 > wrote: >> I'm coming a bit late to this (sorry) > > Apologies from me too. At least I'm in good company. 8-) > > It would be helpful if prefixes such as 2002:a00::/24 were =20 > specifically > mentioned as needing special attention. This might be done by =20= > explicit > mention of each such prefix. Alternatively, language could be = used > which would make clear that the 6to4 image of any IPv4 block for = =20 > which > RFC3330 specifies that "Addresses within this block should not = appear > on the public Internet" should be similarly avoided. > > I believe that this would be useful both to those beginning to = deploy > IPv6 in their networks (my case) and those running a 6to4 relay =20= > service. > > > Best regards, > > Niall O'Reilly > University College Dublin IT Services > > PGP key ID: AE995ED9 (see www.pgp.net) > Fingerprint: 23DC C6DE 8874 2432 2BE0 3905 7987 E48D AE99 5ED9 > > > ----- IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca From hichamdbye@swissman.de Wed Oct 03 09:20:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id48y-0003oS-Ek for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:20:04 -0400 Received: from [216.230.150.13] (helo=13.150.intelnet.net.gt) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id48t-0000ny-FE for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:20:02 -0400 Received: from Bodega ([153.166.105.103]:13938 "EHLO Bodega" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by 13.150.intelnet.net.gt with ESMTP id S22NPCQLXRLGQHXX (ORCPT ); Wed, 3 Oct 2007 07:22:08 -0600 Message-ID: <000401c805c0$5bde1580$0d96e6d8@Bodega> From: "Kaarle hicham" To: Subject: rhuregna Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 07:21:51 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C8058E.1143A580" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C8058E.1143A580 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.siwng.com/ How it is going v6ops-archive Any bigger and i would be in a circus Kaarle hicham ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C8058E.1143A580 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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Any bigger and i would be in a = circus
Kaarle hicham
------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C8058E.1143A580-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 03 10:29:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id5EX-0003ir-1L for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 10:29:53 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id5EO-00075e-7l for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 10:29:50 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id5BA-000MEj-Jh for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:26:24 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [199.212.90.4] (helo=monster.hopcount.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id5B7-000MEJ-WE for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:26:23 +0000 Received: from [64.235.108.48] (helo=[192.168.182.3]) by monster.hopcount.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id5B4-000Nyo-L7; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:26:19 +0000 In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: "Niall O'Reilly" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Joe Abley Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:26:09 -0400 To: Marc Blanchet X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 On 3-Oct-2007, at 0913, Marc Blanchet wrote: > I understand your comment. However, the issues you are raising (as > well as others) related to 6to4 are already in the 6to4 security > RFC (RFC3964), which is already referenced in the 6to4 paragraph. > Therefore, I would suggest not to add any additional text in order > to not repeat what is already throughly discussed in RFC3964. I think readers would be well-served by a convenient, local reference though. If it is left to the reader to translate RFC 3330 into hex, chances are good that it won't happen. How about adding some additional text to section 2.7, such as: 6to4 prefixes are constructed by embedding an IPv4 address into an IPv6 prefix according to [RFC3056]. Where the IPv4 address used to construct such a prefix is not globally-unique (or is otherwise reserved), the resulting 6to4 prefix is unlikely to be useful. The following is a summary of 6to4 prefixes constructed using special- use IPv4 addresses, as documented in [RFC3330]. IPv4 prefixes which appear in [RFC3330] but which are known to have legimitate use on the public Internet at the time of writing are not included. Operators are advised to derive a policy for treatment of these 6to4 prefixes which is analogous to their policy for the corresponding IPv4 addresses. IPv4 Prefix Description 6to4 Prefix 0.0.0.0/8 "this network" [RFC1700] 2002::/24 10.0.0.0/8 private networks [RFC1918] 2002:a00::/24 14.0.0.0/8 "public data networks" [RFC1700] 2002:e00::/24 127.0.0.0/8 loopback addresses [RFC1700] 2002:7f00::/24 169.254.0.0/16 "link local" 2002:a9fe::/32 172.16.0.0/12 private networks [RFC1918] 2002:ac10::/28 192.0.2.0/24 "test net" 2002:c000:200::/40 (etc, etc) Joe From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 03 10:39:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id5OE-0007Fe-C4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 10:39:54 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id5OD-0007RT-5j for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 10:39:54 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id5N8-000OCI-Ci for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:38:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [206.123.31.2] (helo=jazz.viagenie.ca) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id5N3-000OBe-Tt for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 14:38:43 +0000 Received: from [192.168.30.145] (pD9E02644.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.224.38.68]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D7AE29E1400; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 10:38:40 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <42018B40-9263-4C76-AD5B-EA40BA829314@viagenie.ca> Cc: "Niall O'Reilly" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 16:38:36 +0200 To: Joe Abley X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: e8a67952aa972b528dd04570d58ad8fe Le 07-10-03 =E0 16:26, Joe Abley a =E9crit : > > On 3-Oct-2007, at 0913, Marc Blanchet wrote: > >> I understand your comment. However, the issues you are raising (as =20= >> well as others) related to 6to4 are already in the 6to4 security =20 >> RFC (RFC3964), which is already referenced in the 6to4 paragraph. =20 >> Therefore, I would suggest not to add any additional text in order =20= >> to not repeat what is already throughly discussed in RFC3964. > > I think readers would be well-served by a convenient, local =20 > reference though. If it is left to the reader to translate RFC 3330 =20= > into hex, chances are good that it won't happen. - but again, RFC3964 goes in depth of the rationale, implications, =20 etc... - and my understanding from previous wg discussions about this =20 document is that we wanted to move out as much as possible of =20 routing policy instructions. Marc. > > How about adding some additional text to section 2.7, such as: > > 6to4 prefixes are constructed by embedding an IPv4 address into an =20 > IPv6 prefix according to [RFC3056]. Where the IPv4 address used to =20 > construct such a prefix is not globally-unique (or is otherwise =20 > reserved), the resulting 6to4 prefix is unlikely to be useful. > > The following is a summary of 6to4 prefixes constructed using =20 > special-use IPv4 addresses, as documented in [RFC3330]. IPv4 =20 > prefixes which appear in [RFC3330] but which are known to have =20 > legimitate use on the public Internet at the time of writing are =20 > not included. Operators are advised to derive a policy for =20 > treatment of these 6to4 prefixes which is analogous to their policy =20= > for the corresponding IPv4 addresses. > > IPv4 Prefix Description 6to4 Prefix > > 0.0.0.0/8 "this network" [RFC1700] 2002::/24 > 10.0.0.0/8 private networks [RFC1918] 2002:a00::/24 > 14.0.0.0/8 "public data networks" [RFC1700] 2002:e00::/24 > 127.0.0.0/8 loopback addresses [RFC1700] 2002:7f00::/24 > 169.254.0.0/16 "link local" 2002:a9fe::/32 > 172.16.0.0/12 private networks [RFC1918] 2002:ac10::/28 > 192.0.2.0/24 "test net" 2002:c000:200::/40 > > (etc, etc) > > > Joe ----- IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 03 11:09:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id5qi-0003uB-LY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:09:20 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id5qh-000089-F7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:09:20 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id5pV-0002rE-RR for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:08:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [193.1.169.37] (helo=cali.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id5pT-0002qm-2U for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:08:04 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.cali.ucd.ie by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) id <0JPC00901CDRGF00@cali.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:07:59 +0100 (IST) Received: from [137.43.2.214] by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0JPC00LIVCP5EO20@cali.ucd.ie>; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:07:59 +0100 (IST) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:09:39 +0100 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt In-reply-to: To: Marc Blanchet Cc: Niall O'Reilly , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Message-id: <8E5700F4-A24E-4C5F-8934-411BD25B426F@ucd.ie> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-295-516099459; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.2 (Tiger) References: Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 4b800b1eab964a31702fa68f1ff0e955 --Apple-Mail-295-516099459 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 3 Oct 2007, at 14:13, Marc Blanchet wrote: > I understand your comment. However, the issues you are raising (as > well as others) related to 6to4 are already in the 6to4 security > RFC (RFC3964), which is already referenced in the 6to4 paragraph. > Therefore, I would suggest not to add any additional text in order > to not repeat what is already throughly discussed in RFC3964. I understand your response, and have some sympathy with your point of view. I see two possible goals here: "communication" and "documentation". I'm not sure whether both are intended goals of the document being drafted. I think they should be. Repetition is a nuisance in documentation, as it involves parallel maintenance. OTOH, appropriate repetition is useful in communication, as it helps underline the message. My sense of the purpose of this document is that its readers ought to be adequately or even compellingly guided towards doing "the right thing". What prompted me to comment as I did was that, in reading it, I didn't quite find the kind of guidance I was looking for. I'll read it again a couple of times, and consider whether I was simply in unreceptive form whenever I read it before. Best regards, Niall O'Reilly University College Dublin IT Services PGP key ID: AE995ED9 (see www.pgp.net) Fingerprint: 23DC C6DE 8874 2432 2BE0 3905 7987 E48D AE99 5ED9 --Apple-Mail-295-516099459 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFHA7C+eYfkja6ZXtkRAmZ9AJ444WgEbRrp5vLuv/J8Derotvn2AwCgsATJ dSE2RQ0q/OhuYGRvKuu7Glc= =u1ox -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-295-516099459-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 03 11:13:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id5uv-0005Wh-7t for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:13:41 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id5uu-0000J3-12 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:13:41 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id5uO-0003nA-S9 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:13:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [193.1.169.37] (helo=cali.ucd.ie) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id5uL-0003ml-VZ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:13:07 +0000 Received: from conversion-daemon.cali.ucd.ie by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) id <0JPC00H01CPETM00@cali.ucd.ie> (original mail from Niall.oReilly@ucd.ie) for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:13:05 +0100 (IST) Received: from [137.43.2.214] by cali.ucd.ie (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-4.03 (built Sep 22 2005)) with ESMTPSA id <0JPC00LYJCXSEO30@cali.ucd.ie>; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:13:04 +0100 (IST) Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 16:14:48 +0100 From: Niall O'Reilly Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt In-reply-to: To: Joe Abley Cc: Niall O'Reilly , Marc Blanchet , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Content-type: multipart/signed; boundary=Apple-Mail-296-516407716; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature" Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 1.1.2 (Tiger) References: Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 --Apple-Mail-296-516407716 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed On 3 Oct 2007, at 15:26, Joe Abley wrote: > I think readers would be well-served by a convenient, local > reference though. If it is left to the reader to translate RFC 3330 > into hex, chances are good that it won't happen. Well put, Joe! > How about adding some additional text to section 2.7, such as: [ no need for me to repeat ] Looks like the kind of guidance I was missing. Best regards, Niall O'Reilly University College Dublin IT Services PGP key ID: AE995ED9 (see www.pgp.net) Fingerprint: 23DC C6DE 8874 2432 2BE0 3905 7987 E48D AE99 5ED9 --Apple-Mail-296-516407716 content-type: application/pgp-signature; x-mac-type=70674453; name=PGP.sig content-description: This is a digitally signed message part content-disposition: inline; filename=PGP.sig content-transfer-encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.1 (Darwin) iD8DBQFHA7HueYfkja6ZXtkRAiAOAJ9Jb0Y18CU2n5vbV3Zr1B7qPJfFowCfU7dt lfOdj2HVTafUs3TIdiqW3Gw= =H02t -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail-296-516407716-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 03 11:37:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id6I8-0002uJ-5h for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:37:40 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id6I6-00019t-VE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:37:40 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id6Fd-0007FU-EA for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:35:05 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [206.123.31.2] (helo=jazz.viagenie.ca) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Id6Fa-0007Db-2E for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 15:35:04 +0000 Received: from [192.168.30.145] (pD9E026A4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.224.38.164]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA23B29E13CE; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 11:35:00 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <8E5700F4-A24E-4C5F-8934-411BD25B426F@ucd.ie> References: <8E5700F4-A24E-4C5F-8934-411BD25B426F@ucd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) X-Gpgmail-State: !signed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 17:34:57 +0200 To: Niall O'Reilly X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 3002fc2e661cd7f114cb6bae92fe88f1 Le 07-10-03 =E0 17:09, Niall O'Reilly a =E9crit : > > On 3 Oct 2007, at 14:13, Marc Blanchet wrote: > >> I understand your comment. However, the issues you are raising (as =20= >> well as others) related to 6to4 are already in the 6to4 security =20 >> RFC (RFC3964), which is already referenced in the 6to4 paragraph. =20 >> Therefore, I would suggest not to add any additional text in order =20= >> to not repeat what is already throughly discussed in RFC3964. > > I understand your response, and have some sympathy with your = point =20 > of view. > > I see two possible goals here: "communication" and =20 > "documentation". I'm not > sure whether both are intended goals of the document being =20 > drafted. I think > they should be. > > Repetition is a nuisance in documentation, as it involves = parallel =20 > maintenance. > OTOH, appropriate repetition is useful in communication, as it =20= > helps underline > the message. > > My sense of the purpose of this document is that its readers = ought =20 > to be > adequately or even compellingly guided towards doing "the right =20= > thing". What > prompted me to comment as I did was that, in reading it, I = didn't =20 > quite find > the kind of guidance I was looking for. I agree completly on the principle. If you refer to the first =20 versions of the document, that was the intent and I covered more =20 stuff around this to help people do the right thing concerning =20 routing policies. Actually, the first title of the document was "IPv6 =20= routing policies guidelines". But there were people concerned about =20 that direction. Therefore, it was decided to do something similar to =20 RFC3330, which roughly documents the special IPv6 addresses with very =20= few if any info on routing policies. that was the compromise to get =20 the document with concensus. Therefore, I'm trying to stick to the =20 guidance that was previously agreed on the scope/direction of the =20 document , which is about near zero reference to routing policies. summary: I agree with your comment, but to my knowledge, this is not =20 the direction the wg wanted the document to have. Marc. > > I'll read it again a couple of times, and consider whether I was = =20 > simply in > unreceptive form whenever I read it before. > > > Best regards, > > Niall O'Reilly > University College Dublin IT Services > > PGP key ID: AE995ED9 (see www.pgp.net) > Fingerprint: 23DC C6DE 8874 2432 2BE0 3905 7987 E48D AE99 5ED9 > > > ----- IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca From mackenzie739@elhamraks.de Wed Oct 03 11:42:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id6Mn-0001Ji-TD for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:42:29 -0400 Received: from [85.100.184.235] (helo=[85.103.94.169]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Id6Ma-0005sX-UN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 11:42:17 -0400 Received: from galeri-dilara ([141.189.182.191] helo=galeri-dilara) by [85.103.94.169] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1prqwX-000RKT-EL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 3 Oct 2007 18:42:46 +0300 Message-ID: <000a01c805d3$f64eb210$a95e6755@galeridilara> From: "mackenzie gedafer" To: Subject: yangye Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 18:42:10 +0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C805ED.1B9BEA10" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.2 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C805ED.1B9BEA10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.shangagri.com/ Evening v6ops-archive If you feel insecure about your penis size then it affects how you act = and behave mackenzie gedafer ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C805ED.1B9BEA10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
http://www.shangagri.com/
Evening v6ops-archive
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However, the issues you are raising (as=20 >>> well as others) related to 6to4 are already in the 6to4 security RFC = >>> (RFC3964), which is already referenced in the 6to4 paragraph.=20 >>> Therefore, I would suggest not to add any additional text in order to= =20 >>> not repeat what is already throughly discussed in RFC3964. >> >> I understand your response, and have some sympathy with your point= =20 >> of view. >> >> I see two possible goals here: "communication" and=20 >> "documentation". I'm not >> sure whether both are intended goals of the document being=20 >> drafted. I think >> they should be. >> >> Repetition is a nuisance in documentation, as it involves parallel= =20 >> maintenance. >> OTOH, appropriate repetition is useful in communication, as it=20 >> helps underline >> the message. >> >> My sense of the purpose of this document is that its readers ought= =20 >> to be >> adequately or even compellingly guided towards doing "the right=20 >> thing". What >> prompted me to comment as I did was that, in reading it, I didn't = >> quite find >> the kind of guidance I was looking for. >=20 > I agree completly on the principle. If you refer to the first versions = > of the document, that was the intent and I covered more stuff around=20 > this to help people do the right thing concerning routing policies.=20 > Actually, the first title of the document was "IPv6 routing policies=20 > guidelines". But there were people concerned about that direction.=20 > Therefore, it was decided to do something similar to RFC3330, which=20 > roughly documents the special IPv6 addresses with very few if any info = > on routing policies. that was the compromise to get the document with=20 > concensus. Therefore, I'm trying to stick to the guidance that was=20 > previously agreed on the scope/direction of the document , which is=20 > about near zero reference to routing policies. >=20 > summary: I agree with your comment, but to my knowledge, this is not th= e=20 > direction the wg wanted the document to have. I would suggest making the reference to RFC 3964 more specific, e.g. 2.7. 6to4 2002::/16 are the 6to4 addresses [RFC4291][RFC3056]. The 6to4 addresses may be advertised when the site is running a 6to4 relay or offering a 6to4 transit service. However, the provider of this service should be aware of the implications of running such service[RFC3964], which includes some specific filtering rules for 6to4. IPv4 addresses disallowed in 6to4 prefixes are listed in section 5.3.1 of [RFC3964]. In reference to Joe's list, I think it's out of place to mention 14/8, but in any case, if the list is incomplete, we need to fix RFC 3964. Having a different list here would be confusing. Brian >=20 > Marc. >=20 >=20 >> >> I'll read it again a couple of times, and consider whether I was=20 >> simply in >> unreceptive form whenever I read it before. >> >> >> Best regards, >> >> Niall O'Reilly >> University College Dublin IT Services >> >> PGP key ID: AE995ED9 (see www.pgp.net) >> Fingerprint: 23DC C6DE 8874 2432 2BE0 3905 7987 E48D AE99 5ED9 >> >> >> >=20 > ----- > IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 From Ulf_Libor@ebook2u.com Wed Oct 03 18:11:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IdCOk-0006m8-A4 for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:08:54 -0400 Received: from 86-45-71-78.b-ras2.srl.dublin.eircom.net ([86.45.71.78] helo=[86.40.187.234]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IdBul-0007t6-9l for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 03 Oct 2007 17:37:55 -0400 Received: from gloger-nb ([163.132.151.148]:18197 "EHLO gloger-nb" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [86.40.187.234] with ESMTP id S22DLIKJBLYCUMTJ (ORCPT ); Wed, 3 Oct 2007 23:38:13 +0200 Message-ID: <000501c80605$a6425fb0$eabb2856@glogernb> From: "Ulf Libor" To: Subject: etblazer Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 23:37:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80616.69CB2FB0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80616.69CB2FB0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable http://www.eloiseowen.com/ Day v6ops-archive herbal pills are not only safe, but very effective Ulf Libor ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80616.69CB2FB0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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The 6to4 > addresses may be advertised when the site is running a 6to4 > relay or > offering a 6to4 transit service. However, the provider of this > service should be aware of the implications of running such > service[RFC3964], which includes some specific filtering rules for > 6to4. IPv4 addresses disallowed in 6to4 prefixes are listed > in section 5.3.1 of [RFC3964]. Good idea. I think that works for me. Specific indirect reference avoids the parallel-maintenance problem entrained by repetition. I'm also concerned about ugly pockets of ::/96 and ::ffff:0.0.0.0/96 such as RFC1918 reservations. Can they be covered by similar language. > In reference to Joe's list, I think it's out of place to mention > 14/8, but in any case, if the list is incomplete, we need to fix > RFC 3964. Having a different list here would be confusing. If/when 3964 is fixed, won't the list here need fixing to synchronize. 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This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses Author(s) : M. Blanchet Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-02.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2007-10-4 This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6 address blocks.It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to operators and users through the Regional Internet Registries. These descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for documentation and other purposes. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-02.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-02.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. 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------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C8071A.C58BD980-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 05 08:18:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Idm8Y-0000t1-Ah for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Oct 2007 08:18:34 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Idm8O-0003ND-4Y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Oct 2007 08:18:30 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Idm2C-000AC7-9G for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:12:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [206.123.31.2] (helo=jazz.viagenie.ca) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Idm29-000ABY-OS for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Oct 2007 12:11:58 +0000 Received: from [192.168.30.145] (pD9E024CC.dip0.t-ipconnect.de [217.224.36.204]) by jazz.viagenie.ca (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72A9A29E13E6; Fri, 5 Oct 2007 08:11:54 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <795F0C93-8DCE-4E84-96F6-AEF710032835@ucd.ie> References: <8E5700F4-A24E-4C5F-8934-411BD25B426F@ucd.ie> <4704038D.8010405@gmail.com> <795F0C93-8DCE-4E84-96F6-AEF710032835@ucd.ie> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) X-Gpgmail-State: !signed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Marc Blanchet Subject: Re: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-01.txt Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 14:11:50 +0200 To: Niall O'Reilly X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 - 6to4: will update the draft based on Brian's suggestion. this will =20 be -03 version (-02 was just an small nit in references). - ipv4-mapped are already covered as "should not appear on the public =20= Internet" as a whole... so I think we are covering it. Marc. Le 07-10-04 =E0 17:51, Niall O'Reilly a =E9crit : > > On 3 Oct 2007, at 22:03, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> I would suggest making the reference to RFC 3964 more specific, e.g. >> >> 2.7. 6to4 >> >> 2002::/16 are the 6to4 addresses [RFC4291][RFC3056]. The 6to4 >> addresses may be advertised when the site is running a 6to4 =20 >> relay or >> offering a 6to4 transit service. However, the provider of this >> service should be aware of the implications of running such >> service[RFC3964], which includes some specific filtering rules for >> 6to4. IPv4 addresses disallowed in 6to4 prefixes are listed >> in section 5.3.1 of [RFC3964]. > > Good idea. I think that works for me. Specific indirect > reference avoids the parallel-maintenance problem entrained > by repetition. > > I'm also concerned about ugly pockets of ::/96 and > ::ffff:0.0.0.0/96 such as RFC1918 reservations. Can they > be covered by similar language. > >> In reference to Joe's list, I think it's out of place to mention >> 14/8, but in any case, if the list is incomplete, we need to fix >> RFC 3964. Having a different list here would be confusing. > > If/when 3964 is fixed, won't the list here need fixing to > synchronize. Wouldn't it be good to find a short-cut? > > /Niall > ----- IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca From kabuikuarr@j-m-s.co.jp Fri Oct 05 08:48:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Idmbu-0003W4-J3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Oct 2007 08:48:54 -0400 Received: from 89-180-180-173.net.novis.pt ([89.180.180.173] helo=[89.181.173.42]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Idmbf-0003ND-Si for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 05 Oct 2007 08:48:40 -0400 Received: from camerama-e30bae ([163.187.119.123] helo=camerama-e30bae) by [89.181.173.42] ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1VcLiD-000FCP-OM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:48:53 +0100 Message-ID: <000e01c8074e$0de0f7f0$2aadb559@cameramae30bae> From: "marlene kabuiku" To: Subject: gtm Date: Fri, 5 Oct 2007 13:48:40 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C80756.6FA55FF0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Antivirus: avast! 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Marc. Le 07-10-05 =E0 12:15, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org a =E9crit : > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of =20 > the IETF. > > Title : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses > Author(s) : M. Blanchet > Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-03.txt > Pages : 7 > Date : 2007-10-5 > =09 > This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6 address > blocks.It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to operators > and users through the Regional Internet Registries. These > descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for =20 > documentation > and other purposes. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-=20 > ipv6-03.txt > > To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to > i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of > the message. > You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce > to change your subscription settings. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the > username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After > logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then > "get draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-03.txt". > > A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in > http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > > Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. > > Send a message to: > mailserv@ietf.org. > In the body type: > "FILE = /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-03.txt". > =09 > NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in > MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this > feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" > command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or > a MIME-compliant mail reader. 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Especially for UDP applications that rarely has built in any support for handling MTU discovery if the ICMP doesn't work. Which it clearly do not do. The worst is that each application/protocol needs to support MTU handling by itself. At least for TCP we at least have a solution that can be gradually deployed in RFC 4821 "Packetization Layer Path MTU Discovery" that doesn't rely on ICMP. Simply getting this implemented in a majority of the TCP stacks would be really good. However, I think we need to strive towards getting applications in line and support MTU discovery. It is silly for high-bit rate applications to send all these small packet instead of at least descent sized packets when possible. Rémi Denis-Courmont skrev: > Maybe Fred was hinting that Teredo could have defined its > > fragmentation layer between UDP and IPv6. But while this would > > work-around on-path fragmentation it would bring a naughty congestion > > control issue - one simply cannot send 40 datagrams of 1500 bytes each > > with no pacing. And we don't want to have to do congestion control, > > right? > Exactly, and you also need to define a reliability mechanism so you can retransmit fragments that got lost so that you don't get the packets to experience only (1-packet_loss_probability)^40 chance of getting through. 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Especially for UDP applications that rarely has= > built in any support for handling MTU discovery if the ICMP doesn't > work. Which it clearly do not do. The worst is that each > application/protocol needs to support MTU handling by itself. >=20 > At least for TCP we at least have a solution that can be gradually > deployed in RFC 4821 "Packetization Layer Path MTU Discovery" that > doesn't rely on ICMP. Simply getting this implemented in a majority of > the TCP stacks would be really good. >=20 > However, I think we need to strive towards getting applications in line= > and support MTU discovery. It is silly for high-bit rate applications t= o > send all these small packet instead of at least descent sized packets > when possible. So, is there any scope for a generic UDP echo process that would allow PMTUD without ICMP messages? It's probably easier to get a port open in firewalls for that than to reverse the trend of ICMP filtering, as long as the echo process has adequate DoS resistance. Brian >=20 > R=C3=A9mi Denis-Courmont skrev: >=20 >> Maybe Fred was hinting that Teredo could have defined its >> >> fragmentation layer between UDP and IPv6. But while this would >> >> work-around on-path fragmentation it would bring a naughty congestion >> >> control issue - one simply cannot send 40 datagrams of 1500 bytes each= >> >> with no pacing. And we don't want to have to do congestion control, >> >> right? >> >=20 > Exactly, and you also need to define a reliability mechanism so you can= > retransmit fragments that got lost so that you don't get the packets to= > experience only (1-packet_loss_probability)^40 chance of getting throug= h. >=20 > Cheers >=20 > Magnus Westerlund >=20 > IETF Transport Area Director & TSVWG Chair > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM/M > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Ericsson AB | Phone +46 8 4048287 > Torshamsgatan 23 | Fax +46 8 7575550 > S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >=20 >=20 From RuthemissarySlaughter@flickr.com Wed Oct 10 17:07:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IfimV-0004gH-Gu for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:07:51 -0400 Received: from cpc1-derb4-0-0-cust65.lei3.cable.ntl.com ([82.31.80.66] helo=tooth) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IfimT-0002Xj-3G for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 10 Oct 2007 17:07:49 -0400 Message-ID: <334e901c80b81$a4528fa0$6401a8c0@tooth> From: "Margaret Lucero" To: Subject: Some of the most competitive rates available Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:07:27 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_334E5_01C80B81.A4528FA0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 ------=_NextPart_000_334E5_01C80B81.A4528FA0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let us assist with the placement of working capital business loans for = small to medium sized businesses in all 50 states We've created an affordable, simple, and flexible approach to providing = working capital of $5,000 to $500,000 or more. 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              معلومة

 

 m3loma

                                                                                  www.m3loma.com 

معلومة

 

 

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هدفنا توعية المجتمع العربي

 

 منتدى معلومة

 ملتقى الشباب والشابات العرب

الشبكة الإخبارية

أخبار العالم بين يديك

 

" وقـت المـتعة "  

عندما نفقد المتعة فيما نفعله.. فإننا -بكامل إرادتنا- نتحول من بشر إلي آلة تدور دون مشاعر وتنتج دون احساس.

المتعة فن من فنون الحياة، قليلون يعرفون قيمة هذا الفن، قليلون يعرفون سر صناعة المتعة، قليلون يعرفون كيف يتجاوزون المصاعب والأزمات ويحولونها إلي متعة.

الانتصار علي المشاكل في حد ذاتها متعة، والقفز فوق الاشواك التي نقابلها علي سلم الحياة متعة، وترويض الألم متعة.

إن كل التفاصيل التي نمارسها في اليوم الواحد يجب أن ننقذها من ملل العادة إلي روعة الاستمتاع بها.

وكل الأشياء في حياتنا تحمل وجهتي نظر.. فما هو من وجهة نظر البعض يفتقد المتعة.. نفسه من وجهة نظر آخرين هو المتعة ذاتها.

نفس الشيء يمكن أن تشاهده كيفما تريد.. بالسلب أو الإيجاب.

مثلاً: الاستيقاظ المبكر.. يراه البعض عذاباً، ويصفه البعض بأنه متعة.

وبنفس المثل تستطيع تطبيق المعني علي ممارسة الرياضة.. المذاكرة.. العمل.. السفر.. السهر .. الحب.. الزواج.. كل شيء، أي شيء، وما أحاول أن أقنعك به أن تنظر إلي الجانب الأجمل فيما تمر به من أحداث لتكتسب منها المتعة.

لا تفقد اصرارك وأنت تسير في الحياة علي اقتناص المتعة من كل التفاصيل التي تمر بها.. فإذا لم تفعل ذلك فأنت الخاسر الوحيد.. لأن العمر الذي يمضي دون الفوز بأكبر متعة ممكنة هو عمرك أنت.. ولن يدفع لك أحد ثمن عدم استمتاعك به.

إن تحقيق المتعة يبدأ بأن تكون مؤمناً بأهمية وقيمة ما تصنع في هذه اللحظة حتي لو كان صغيراً أو بسيطاً.. لا يهم.. المهم هو قدرتك علي أن تضيف إليه المتعة

مساعدة إنسان في عبور الطريق.. متعة، مساعدة إنسان في مشكلة خاصة به.. متعة، مساعدة إنسان حزين ليتجاوز أحزانه.. متعة.

تصور أنه حتي تلك الأشياء التي تفعلها مضطرا .. أحياناً أو بشكل روتيني ممل.. هي نفسها التي بإمكانك اكتساب المتعة منها إذا مارستها بأسلوب إيجابي.

أن تجد نفسك بكل قوتها وضعفها.. بكل خيرها وشرها بكل إرادتها وعجزها.. لتصل إلي أبعد من تصوراتك.

تذكر.. أنك تستحق المتعة، وألا تسمح لأحد بسرقتها منك.. وفي سبيل ذلك.. لابد أن تبذل جهداً حقيقياً للوصول للمتعة، فهي مثل كل الاشياء التي نسعي لتحقيقها يجب أن نبذل مجهواًد وإصراراً لإنجازها.

لا تؤجل متعة اليوم.. إلي الغد.. دائماً اخلق متعتك بنفسك في كل يوم منذ أن تستيقظ حتي تذهب للنوم.

اسأل نفسك كل صباح: كيف أمتع نفسي اليوم؟ ما الذي ينتظرني اليوم لأستمتع به؟

اسأل نفسك كل مساء: ماذا حققت من متعة؟ ما الذي افتقدته في متعتي اليوم؟

صديقي.. إن المتعة هي التفاصيل الصغيرة التي قد تمر علينا دون أن ننتبه لما تخبئه لنا من متعة لا نراها من الوهلة الأولي.. لكنها تحتاج أن نعيد النظر إليها.

لا تقل أبداً إن حياتي غير ممتعة.. هل حكمت علي نفسك بالموت؟ إذن أنت المسئول

بالتدريب علي اكتساب المتعة تستطيع أن تفعلها وأن تستثمر كل لحظة من عمرك في صناعة المتعة التي تجعل منك إنساناً يعرف كيف يعيش الحياة.

كن قوياً بما يكفي لأن تنتشل متعتك قبل الغرق.. حين تصبح ضعيفاً.. فإن كل ما تفعله في الحياة سوف يبدو في عينيــك باللون الأسود فقط.. وهو ليس كذلك، فقوتك سوف تعيد الألوان إلي ما تفعل.

ليس هناك خطوات للوصول إلي المتعة.. لكنك تستطيع أن تصل إلي ما تريد بالرغبة الحقيقية في أن تجد نافذة المتعة في كل الطقوس التي تمارسها كل يوم.. وقتها لا تتردد.. وارحل من النافذة إلي حيث رحابة السماء بكل متعتها.. كأنك عصفور لا حدود ولا قيود تقتل عشقه للحياة.

هذا وقت المتعة.. فلا تترك نفسك.. إلا في صحبته

 

للمزيد من المواضيع الرائعة  تفضل بزيارة منتدى معلومة

 

 

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أفلام فيديو

 

 

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شعر وأدب

 

 

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مع اطيب التحيات

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للاشتراك في نشرة التوعية اضغط على الرابط

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It's probably easier to get a port open > in firewalls for that than to reverse the trend of ICMP filtering, as > long as the echo process has adequate DoS resistance. I would hope that we could at least ping. Or, is that off the table as well? 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Raimundas Lacelle http://bramca.com/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 11 15:32:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig3lz-0004jk-JR for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:32:43 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig3ly-0001Oh-DT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:32:43 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig3iN-000PlP-4p for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:28:59 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig3iL-000Pkf-Hj for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:28:58 +0000 Received: from basile.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:211:11ff:fe25:e6b4]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FCA396809; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:28:54 +0200 (CEST) From: =?utf-8?q?R=C3=A9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: Brian E Carpenter Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:28:52 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Cc: "Templin, Fred L" , Magnus Westerlund , Christian Huitema , Arnaud Ebalard , v6ops@ops.ietf.org References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB2E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E7783.8050809@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <470E7783.8050809@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200710112228.52624.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d Hello, Le Thursday 11 October 2007 22:20:35 Brian E Carpenter, vous avez =C3=A9cri= t=C2=A0: > On 2007-10-12 05:52, Templin, Fred L wrote: > > Brian, > > > >> So, is there any scope for a generic UDP echo process that would allow > >> PMTUD without ICMP messages? It's probably easier to get a port open > >> in firewalls for that than to reverse the trend of ICMP filtering, as > >> long as the echo process has adequate DoS resistance. > > > > I would hope that we could at least ping. Or, is that > > off the table as well? > > If you mean ICMP echo that seems to be blocked in many places. By design, ICMP echo requests can't go *in* through NATs anyway, so this is= a=20 moot point within this *TEREDO* thread.. Of course, UDP echo would work, but I am a bit concerned as to its=20 applicability to potentially short-lived UDP flows, as can happen with=20 TEREDO... ? =2D-=20 R=C3=A9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 11 15:55:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig47l-0007vU-CD for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:55:13 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig47j-0002Mk-7K for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:55:13 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig45m-0002dL-CS for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:53:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [130.76.64.48] (helo=slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig45k-0002d1-Kk for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:53:09 +0000 Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (slb-av-01.boeing.com [129.172.13.4]) by slb-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id l9BJqfKQ023308 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:52:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l9BJqfvO016917; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l9BJqMGv016178; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:52:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:52:27 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:52:27 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB32@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <470E7783.8050809@gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: The IPv4 Internet MTU Thread-Index: AcgMO9m8CHMrlvVQSxKh/AZd0i7byQAA7D5w References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB2E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E7783.8050809@gmail.com> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: "Magnus Westerlund" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= , "Christian Huitema" , "Arnaud Ebalard" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Oct 2007 19:52:27.0578 (UTC) FILETIME=[404541A0:01C80C40] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Brian, > > I would hope that we could at least ping. Or, is that > > off the table as well? >=20 > If you mean ICMP echo that seems to be blocked in many places. That doesn't sound so great. About the UDP echo port, in one of my earlier (unpublished) essays I talked about setting up a "sprite-mtu" service port. Maybe I should go back and look at that again. Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 11 17:16:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig5Ok-0005PH-Ll for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:16:50 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig5Ob-00069d-FU for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:16:47 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig5KK-000AYv-Pa for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:12:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [130.76.64.48] (helo=slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig5KF-000AYK-1O for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:12:16 +0000 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (blv-av-01.boeing.com [192.42.227.216]) by slb-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id l9BKDD95007528 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:13:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l9BKDBMr021649; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l9BKD6ir021408; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:13:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:13:05 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 13:13:04 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB34@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <200710112228.52624.rdenis@simphalempin.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: The IPv4 Internet MTU Thread-Index: AcgMPPey7ZiVY3HkR8G0/wctzlKIFwAA1pdg References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB2E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E7783.8050809@gmail.com> <200710112228.52624.rdenis@simphalempin.com> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= , "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: "Magnus Westerlund" , "Christian Huitema" , "Arnaud Ebalard" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Oct 2007 20:13:05.0047 (UTC) FILETIME=[21DC0A70:01C80C43] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 > Of course, UDP echo would work, but I am a bit concerned as to its=20 > applicability to potentially short-lived UDP flows, as can happen with = > TEREDO... ? Short UDP flows should still be OK, but may need to institute pacing until coordination with the TFE can be done. If the flow is so short-lived that there is no time to perform the coordination, then it is simply "out of sight - out of mind" - right? Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 11 17:56:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig610-00068j-KE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:56:22 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig60z-0007Wv-E2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:56:22 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig5yq-000Eov-29 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:54:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [209.85.198.189] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig5yn-000EoZ-KD for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:54:06 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so706444rvf for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:54:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DTuc0z97mBs4HnoPpRb/J1SfSKvTn35tx974i/cydxQ=; b=DvzJ8aVp0lSW+IrHZra/s8fyTpIdyqXke3p3/gd/s8cTnwagOmm31qygIju7FFCm9Hn2ObgbpCUH4cUS/nyWnEszdjQEAeU3t4DI627okKz9D3DYDBi49V7wTtexVC+4Y1wfb6ox+2E/QeqI7ewQMR3XImgaeNLhrfRRbOSXHw8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=PEX6nOQMTg1pVYLjHRyK36eEeIKxTOI0BYnEtUxtfqLmiQcpNHp4SN9L7TswrOqCB357U5q4aNRxsdKaKZRG9YP5QwJq40/ojpQ56U1iFCe6G4qNOf4D0/l46qoZ1WdokcAFDCyPEBggjyGQO5PDy3Vs8QMH1+8TLY2f9hj/o/U= Received: by 10.114.192.1 with SMTP id p1mr2675867waf.1192137974556; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v39sm3019602wah.2007.10.11.14.26.12 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <470E94F1.3060107@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:26:09 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Templin, Fred L" CC: =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVuaXMtQ291cm1vbnQ=?= , Magnus Westerlund , Christian Huitema , Arnaud Ebalard , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB2E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E7783.8050809@gmail.com> <200710112228.52624.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB34@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB34@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 On 2007-10-12 09:13, Templin, Fred L wrote: >> Of course, UDP echo would work, but I am a bit concerned as to its >> applicability to potentially short-lived UDP flows, as can happen with >> TEREDO... ? > > Short UDP flows should still be OK, but may need to > institute pacing until coordination with the TFE can > be done. If the flow is so short-lived that there is > no time to perform the coordination, then it is simply > "out of sight - out of mind" - right? A sender could always cache the most recently discovered PMTU to a given destination. That would be enough for repeated short UDP flows to the same destination. As for isolated short UDP flows, they just need to use the Internet minimum MTU (576 or 1280) - there's no other possible solution. Brian From Dinesh-Rojem@andreleroyer.com Thu Oct 11 18:11:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig6Ft-00054s-HG for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:11:45 -0400 Received: from dyn-83-154-20-154.ppp.tiscali.fr ([83.154.20.154]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig6Fi-0007wd-2z for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:11:40 -0400 Received: from PC-000000000 ([152.156.109.193] helo=PC-000000000) by dyn-83-154-20-154.ppp.tiscali.fr ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1yHmWE-000ALS-dl for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 00:11:41 +0200 Message-ID: <000201c80c53$ad0abc80$9a149a53@PC000000000> From: "Dinesh Rojem" To: Subject: metsntuh Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 00:11:30 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80C64.70938C80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.5 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80C64.70938C80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings v6ops-archive im too tired tonight, sound familiar? Dinesh Rojem http://www.bloglfux.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80C64.70938C80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Greetings v6ops-archive
im too tired tonight, sound = familiar?
Dinesh Rojem
http://www.bloglfux.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80C64.70938C80-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 11 18:24:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig6Sa-0008It-Et for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:24:52 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig6SZ-0008JH-8s for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:24:52 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig6PF-000HRV-8k for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:21:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [209.85.198.189] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig6PC-000HR8-UP for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:21:23 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so712609rvf for ; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:21:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.15.19 with SMTP id s19mr1129772rvi.1192130452485; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:20:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?10.1.1.7? ( [222.153.1.229]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c14sm3720670rvf.2007.10.11.12.20.48 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:20:51 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <470E7783.8050809@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:20:35 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Templin, Fred L" CC: Magnus Westerlund , =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkg?= =?UTF-8?B?RGVuaXMtQ291cm1vbnQ=?= , Christian Huitema , Arnaud Ebalard , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB2E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB2E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c On 2007-10-12 05:52, Templin, Fred L wrote: > Brian, > >> So, is there any scope for a generic UDP echo process that would allow >> PMTUD without ICMP messages? It's probably easier to get a port open >> in firewalls for that than to reverse the trend of ICMP filtering, as >> long as the echo process has adequate DoS resistance. > > I would hope that we could at least ping. Or, is that > off the table as well? If you mean ICMP echo that seems to be blocked in many places. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 11 18:34:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig6bd-00020C-NN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:34:13 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig6bc-0000mC-H3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:34:13 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig6Zz-000IZU-Ch for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:32:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [130.76.64.48] (helo=slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig6Zx-000IZ5-JY for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:32:30 +0000 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (stl-av-01.boeing.com [192.76.190.6]) by slb-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id l9BMW39Q025939 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:32:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l9BMW3JF022054; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:32:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l9BMVwU0021920; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:32:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:32:02 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:32:01 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB36@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <470E94F1.3060107@gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: The IPv4 Internet MTU Thread-Index: AcgMTVtfE9eHASmmR5SjXSBbROIg/QABqjgA References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB2E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E7783.8050809@gmail.com> <200710112228.52624.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB34@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E94F1.3060107@gmail.com> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= , "Magnus Westerlund" , "Christian Huitema" , "Arnaud Ebalard" , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 11 Oct 2007 22:32:02.0138 (UTC) FILETIME=[8B272BA0:01C80C56] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 1ac7cc0a4cd376402b85bc1961a86ac2 Brian, > A sender could always cache the most recently discovered PMTU > to a given destination. That would be enough for repeated > short UDP flows to the same destination. As for isolated > short UDP flows, they just need to use the Internet minimum > MTU (576 or 1280) - there's no other possible solution. Minimum MTU for IPv4 is only 68 bytes; minimum EMTU_R is the one that is 576 - right? Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com From chrisDittman@zs.zdechov.indos.cz Thu Oct 11 19:22:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig7Lu-0000p8-0A for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:22:02 -0400 Received: from adsl-207-176-246-111.kwic.com ([207.176.246.111] helo=adsl-216-94-27-236.kwic.com) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig7Ln-0002RJ-ED for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:21:55 -0400 Received: by 10.72.192.194 with SMTP id oIOheqJETtoFD; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:19:52 -0400 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.235.106 with SMTP id LMWaujGNEpejqH.9095418310094; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:19:50 -0400 (GMT) Message-ID: <000b01c80c5d$37182440$ec1b5ed8@compaq> From: "chris Dittman" To: Subject: ncoatism Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 19:19:47 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80C3B.B0068440" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.1 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80C3B.B0068440 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hello there v6ops-archive i was scared of blowing my load to quick chris Dittman http://bulbarn.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80C3B.B0068440 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hello there v6ops-archive
i was scared of blowing my load to = quick
chris Dittman
http://bulbarn.com/
------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80C3B.B0068440-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 11 20:06:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig82T-0007Hg-GC for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:06:01 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ig82S-0003S3-AN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 11 Oct 2007 20:06:01 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig7xv-000PkY-5H for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 00:01:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [131.228.20.173] (helo=mgw-ext14.nokia.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ig7xt-000PkF-8P for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 00:01:18 +0000 Received: from esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com (esebh108.ntc.nokia.com [172.21.143.145]) by mgw-ext14.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l9C00oTE025185; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 03:00:58 +0300 Received: from esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.143.33]) by esebh108.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 12 Oct 2007 03:00:58 +0300 Received: from esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com ([172.21.138.183]) by esebh103.NOE.Nokia.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 12 Oct 2007 03:00:57 +0300 Received: from mgw-int01.ntc.nokia.com ([172.21.143.96]) by esebh102.NOE.Nokia.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 12 Oct 2007 03:00:57 +0300 Received: from [172.19.74.153] (dadhcp-172019074153.americas.nokia.com [172.19.74.153]) by mgw-int01.ntc.nokia.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l9C00mIi003110; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 03:00:49 +0300 In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB36@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB2E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E7783.8050809@gmail.com> <200710112228.52624.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB34@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E94F1.3060107@gmail.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB36@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: "Brian E Carpenter" , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= , "Magnus Westerlund" , "Christian Huitema" , "Arnaud Ebalard" , Reply-To: bob.hinden@nokia.com Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Bob Hinden Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:01:20 -0700 To: "Templin, Fred L" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2007 00:00:57.0440 (UTC) FILETIME=[F73DA600:01C80C62] X-Nokia-AV: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7d33c50f3756db14428398e2bdedd581 > >> A sender could always cache the most recently discovered PMTU >> to a given destination. That would be enough for repeated >> short UDP flows to the same destination. As for isolated >> short UDP flows, they just need to use the Internet minimum >> MTU (576 or 1280) - there's no other possible solution. > > Minimum MTU for IPv4 is only 68 bytes; minimum EMTU_R > is the one that is 576 - right? > I forget the exact terminology, but Brian is talking about the biggest packet one can send and be guaranteed it will not be fragmented. The is 576 bytes for IPv4 and 1280 bytes for IPv6. I think of it as the biggest smallest packet one can send :-) Bob From kugacumh@brackengin.com Fri Oct 12 00:07:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgBoC-0002mH-5V for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 00:07:32 -0400 Received: from [190.42.210.20] (helo=[190.42.210.20]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgBo5-0002Rv-B3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 00:07:27 -0400 Received: from [190.42.210.20] by MAIL.brackengin.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 00:01:07 -0400 From: "Raul Johns" To: Subject: Canadian Pharmacy Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 00:01:07 -0400 Message-ID: <01c80c84$84293a90$14d22abe@kugacumh> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80C84.84293A90" X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.4024 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 Importance: Normal X-Spam-Score: 1.2 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80C84.84293A90 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit *Canadian Pharmacy* - Best quality drugs - Special Internet prices - Fast and discreet worldwide shipping - Friendly customer support Men's Health Anti-Depressants General Health Male Enh ancement Pain Relief Anti-Biotics Weight Loss Anti-Herpes Anti-Diabetic Women's Health Blood Pressure/Cholesterol Anti-Allergic/Asthma Anti-Acidity View Complete Product List: http://lifebed.cn ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80C84.84293A90 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable *Canadian Pharmacy*

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    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C80C84.84293A90-- From asda@absolutepowersystem.com Fri Oct 12 04:06:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgFX4-0003yt-5L for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 04:06:06 -0400 Received: from host179-69-static.24-87-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([87.24.69.179]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgFWs-0000yY-AU for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 04:05:54 -0400 Received: by 10.194.19.195 with SMTP id UMRPSKtSRLvFn; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:06:04 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.121.200 with SMTP id OiYCOirBaOYmYS.3251855977318; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:06:02 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: <000601c80ca6$b99da540$b3451857@contabilita> From: "asda moryoussef" To: Subject: pulserer Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:05:59 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C80CB7.7D267540" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.0 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C80CB7.7D267540 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nice to meet you v6ops-archive keep it rock solid everytime and all night long asda moryoussef http://bramca.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C80CB7.7D267540 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    Nice to meet you v6ops-archive
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C80CB7.7D267540-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 05:16:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgGdE-0006oJ-EJ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 05:16:32 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgGd3-0003a0-8m for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 05:16:27 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgGWx-000H4r-PY for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:10:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DATE_IN_PAST_12_24, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgGWm-000H2u-MH for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:09:58 +0000 Received: from [163.117.139.34] ([163.117.139.34]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9C96Mm7028959 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:06:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 18:46:34 +0200 To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 On 10-okt-2007, at 22:51, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2007-10-11 00:56, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> MTU's are real bastard. :-) >> Especially for UDP applications that rarely has >> built in any support for handling MTU discovery if the ICMP doesn't >> work. Are we talking about IPv4 here? In that case, path MTU discovery is pretty much impossible because the applications would have to receive the ICMP messages and adjust their behavior = every UDP app needs to implement PMTUD itself. With IPv6 the IP layer takes care of all of this but obviously if there are no ICMP messages it won't work. However... >> At least for TCP we at least have a solution that can be gradually >> deployed in RFC 4821 "Packetization Layer Path MTU Discovery" that >> doesn't rely on ICMP. I don't see any reason why the IPv6 IP layer wouldn't be able to do RFC 4821. >> However, I think we need to strive towards getting applications in >> line >> and support MTU discovery. No way. Application developers don't run networks, they tend to get this stuff wrong and then you'll forever supporting applications with broken network behavior that won't be upgraded for a decade. >> It is silly for high-bit rate applications to >> send all these small packet instead of at least descent sized packets >> when possible. > So, is there any scope for a generic UDP echo process that would allow > PMTUD without ICMP messages? That's what RFC 4821 does by trying different packet sizes and seeing which gets through. For IPv4, an obvious method would be to send packets with DF=0 and hear from the other side how big the fragments are but that's not possible with IPv4. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 05:55:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgHF6-0005Xl-Ef for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 05:55:40 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgHF5-000579-8a for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 05:55:40 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgHDP-000K9n-H5 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:53:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgHDH-000K8r-Ok for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:53:49 +0000 Received: from [163.117.139.34] (nirrti.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.34]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9C9o859029887 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:50:09 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB2E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E7783.8050809@gmail.com> <200710112228.52624.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB34@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E94F1.3060107@gmail.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB36@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:52:57 +0200 To: bob.hinden@nokia.com X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 On 12-okt-2007, at 2:01, Bob Hinden wrote: >> Minimum MTU for IPv4 is only 68 bytes; minimum EMTU_R >> is the one that is 576 - right? > I forget the exact terminology, but Brian is talking about the > biggest packet one can send and be guaranteed it will not be > fragmented. The is 576 bytes for IPv4 and 1280 bytes for IPv6. > I think of it as the biggest smallest packet one can send :-) Please note that the former and the latter are not the same thing. In IPv4, fragmentation is always an option unless you set the DF bit. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to set the DF bit because fragmentation is less than desireable, because the alternative is worse: the packet is dropped. You ONLY get to set the DF bit if you have a mechanism in place that can recover from the drops and resend smaller packets. As far as I know, this is universally not the case for IPv4 UDP applications so those should NEVER set the DF bit. 68 is not the minimum MTU for IPv4, it's a throw-away observation in RFC 791 that having an MTU even smaller than 68 is unworkable. In practice, the smallest MTU that I've seen in IPv4 is 296 (see work by Van Jacobsen) and for a long time, 576 was the largest univesally supported packet size on the IPv4 internet. But this was so long ago that it doesn't mean much anymore today. There are basically two types of UDP protocols: the old / low volume ones such as the DNS, where a 512 / 576 limit is explicitly or implicitly understood, and the newer / higher volume ones such as A/V streaming that will usually work just fine at sizes between 1300 and 1400 bytes. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 07:56:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgJ86-0007De-Kh for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:56:34 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgJ85-0000vv-C1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 07:56:34 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgJ4H-0003FW-Sw for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:52:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [193.180.251.62] (helo=mailgw4.ericsson.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgJ4A-0003Ew-SI for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:52:32 +0000 Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id B89F520498; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:52:28 +0200 (CEST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3e-b2038bb0000007e1-42-470f5ffc485f Received: from esealmw127.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.122]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 98F5420201; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:52:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from esealmw127.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.175]) by esealmw127.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:52:28 +0200 Received: from [147.214.30.247] ([147.214.30.247]) by esealmw127.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:52:28 +0200 Message-ID: <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:52:27 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum CC: Brian E Carpenter , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> In-Reply-To: <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2007 11:52:28.0185 (UTC) FILETIME=[5CE86090:01C80CC6] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: bdc523f9a54890b8a30dd6fd53d5d024 Iljitsch van Beijnum skrev: > On 10-okt-2007, at 22:51, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> On 2007-10-11 00:56, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >>> Especially for UDP applications that rarely has >>> built in any support for handling MTU discovery if the ICMP doesn't >>> work. > > Are we talking about IPv4 here? In that case, path MTU discovery is > pretty much impossible because the applications would have to receive > the ICMP messages and adjust their behavior = every UDP app needs to > implement PMTUD itself. Yes IPv4, but I don't know if things are better in the IPv6 world. What you write about requiring each app to do it itself is basically the state of things today as I understand them. However, you should even forget to use ICMP for it. It can be used as a hint for your process. But the only reliable way of determining MTU is to probe how big packets the network will deliver with DF bit set. And this obviously doesn't work unless you have a feedback and can ACK which packets that was delivered so that one can know if a particular size successfully was delivered. > > With IPv6 the IP layer takes care of all of this but obviously if there > are no ICMP messages it won't work. However... > >>> At least for TCP we at least have a solution that can be gradually >>> deployed in RFC 4821 "Packetization Layer Path MTU Discovery" that >>> doesn't rely on ICMP. > > I don't see any reason why the IPv6 IP layer wouldn't be able to do RFC > 4821. > >>> However, I think we need to strive towards getting applications in line >>> and support MTU discovery. > > No way. Application developers don't run networks, they tend to get this > stuff wrong and then you'll forever supporting applications with broken > network behavior that won't be upgraded for a decade. Well, then we stop using UDP. Protocols built on top of UDP needs to take care of this as ICMP clearly does not work. There is also the whole thing that most applications need to deliver the data that suits the MTU that is present. For RTP/UDP application this adaptation needs to happen in the media codecs that deliver data to the lower layers to enable the utilization of different MTUs. Any protocol/application implementation capable of utilizing larger MTUs needs to have support for utilizing the MTU that actually is present. >>> It is silly for high-bit rate applications to >>> send all these small packet instead of at least descent sized packets >>> when possible. > >> So, is there any scope for a generic UDP echo process that would allow >> PMTUD without ICMP messages? > > That's what RFC 4821 does by trying different packet sizes and seeing which gets through. > > For IPv4, an obvious method would be to send packets with DF=0 and hear from the other side how big the fragments are but that's not possible with IPv4. > Yes, that would probably work. The question is how we get a feedback channel that works. Cheers Magnus Westerlund IETF Transport Area Director & TSVWG Chair ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM/M ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 8 4048287 Torshamsgatan 23 | Fax +46 8 7575550 S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 09:06:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgKDd-0006cg-FF for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:06:21 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgKDc-0003Bb-96 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:06:21 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgK8a-0009Hx-Bs for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:01:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [130.76.96.56] (helo=stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgK8T-0009Gc-LW for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:01:03 +0000 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (stl-av-01.boeing.com [192.76.190.6]) by stl-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id l9CD0Unk028374 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:00:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l9CD0UFw028245; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:00:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l9CD07ea026883; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:00:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 12 Oct 2007 06:00:23 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 06:00:23 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB38@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: The IPv4 Internet MTU Thread-Index: AcgMsmMoeyo7+3ZbR9moeIpu3E6nOwAHSDgg References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Iljitsch van Beijnum" , "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: "IPv6 Operations" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2007 13:00:23.0355 (UTC) FILETIME=[D9E5F8B0:01C80CCF] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Iljitsch van Beijnum [mailto:iljitsch@muada.com]=20 > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 9:47 AM > To: Brian E Carpenter > Cc: IPv6 Operations > Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU >=20 > On 10-okt-2007, at 22:51, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >=20 > > On 2007-10-11 00:56, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > >> MTU's are real bastard. >=20 > :-) Double :-) :-) =20 > For IPv4, an obvious method would be to send packets with DF=3D0 and =20 > hear from the other side how big the fragments are but that's not =20 > possible with IPv4. Have been there, and won't go there again. Size of fragments usually indicates size of links in the path - but not always! Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 09:09:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgKGl-0000aF-Ap for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:09:35 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgKGk-0003Gr-27 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:09:35 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgKFC-000A5E-VO for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:07:58 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [130.76.64.48] (helo=slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgKF6-000A4W-E8 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:07:53 +0000 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (stl-av-01.boeing.com [192.76.190.6]) by slb-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id l9CD6hJR029533 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Fri, 12 Oct 2007 06:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l9CD6gIT013593; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:06:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id l9CD6Jht012420; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 08:06:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Fri, 12 Oct 2007 06:06:35 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 06:06:35 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB39@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: The IPv4 Internet MTU Thread-Index: AcgMt4gt+R+6TsQHQOmZCONSPdrhzwAGFYqA References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB2E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E7783.8050809@gmail.com> <200710112228.52624.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB34@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E94F1.3060107@gmail.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB36@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Iljitsch van Beijnum" , Cc: "IPv6 Operations" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 12 Oct 2007 13:06:35.0668 (UTC) FILETIME=[B7D06D40:01C80CD0] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 4d87d2aa806f79fed918a62e834505ca =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Iljitsch van Beijnum [mailto:iljitsch@muada.com]=20 > Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 2:53 AM > To: bob.hinden@nokia.com > Cc: IPv6 Operations > Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU >=20 > On 12-okt-2007, at 2:01, Bob Hinden wrote: >=20 > >> Minimum MTU for IPv4 is only 68 bytes; minimum EMTU_R > >> is the one that is 576 - right? >=20 > > I forget the exact terminology, but Brian is talking about the =20 > > biggest packet one can send and be guaranteed it will not be =20 > > fragmented. The is 576 bytes for IPv4 and 1280 bytes for IPv6. >=20 > > I think of it as the biggest smallest packet one can send :-) >=20 > Please note that the former and the latter are not the same thing. In > IPv4, fragmentation is always an option unless you set the DF bit. =20 > That doesn't mean it's a good idea to set the DF bit because =20 > fragmentation is less than desireable, because the alternative is =20 > worse: the packet is dropped. You ONLY get to set the DF bit if you =20 > have a mechanism in place that can recover from the drops and resend =20 > smaller packets. As far as I know, this is universally not the case =20 > for IPv4 UDP applications so those should NEVER set the DF bit. >=20 > 68 is not the minimum MTU for IPv4, it's a throw-away observation in =20 > RFC 791 that having an MTU even smaller than 68 is unworkable. In =20 > practice, the smallest MTU that I've seen in IPv4 is 296 (see work by > Van Jacobsen) and for a long time, 576 was the largest univesally =20 > supported packet size on the IPv4 internet. But this was so long ago =20 > that it doesn't mean much anymore today. There are basically two =20 > types of UDP protocols: the old / low volume ones such as the DNS, =20 > where a 512 / 576 limit is explicitly or implicitly understood, and =20 > the newer / higher volume ones such as A/V streaming that will =20 > usually work just fine at sizes between 1300 and 1400 bytes. The BCP for this is RFC3819, Section 2. It essentially says that slow links should set an MTU that is "small, but not too small". It gives an example number of 256b, but leaves it up to the reader to decide just how small "too small" is. Main takeaway for me is that if the path MTU is 576 or smaller, just drop everything bigger than 576 and set DF=3D0 in the others. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C80CEB.7678B850-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 12:29:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgNOL-0002x1-Oj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:29:37 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgNOF-0004Cs-Ix for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:29:37 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgNJ2-0003vi-HD for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:24:08 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgNIv-0003ue-71 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:24:07 +0000 Received: from [163.117.139.34] ([163.117.139.34]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9CGKq0k037339 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:20:53 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:23:15 +0200 To: Magnus Westerlund X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 On 12-okt-2007, at 13:52, Magnus Westerlund wrote: >> Are we talking about IPv4 here? In that case, path MTU discovery is >> pretty much impossible because the applications would have to receive >> the ICMP messages and adjust their behavior = every UDP app needs to >> implement PMTUD itself. > Yes IPv4, but I don't know if things are better in the IPv6 world. > What > you write about requiring each app to do it itself is basically the > state of things today as I understand them. No, the state of things today for UDP is that no PMTUD happens. This is suboptimal, but I'm not sure if there is a reasonable way to do better. > But the only reliable way of determining MTU is to probe how big > packets > the network will deliver with DF bit set. And this obviously doesn't > work unless you have a feedback and can ACK which packets that was > delivered so that one can know if a particular size successfully was > delivered. And, more importantly, you can adjust your packet sizes as required. This isn't something all UDP applications can do. The IP layer can do it for them by sending out fragments but although this is normal behavior for IPv6 if there are "too big" messages, I have never seen IPv4 do this. >> No way. Application developers don't run networks, they tend to >> get this >> stuff wrong and then you'll forever supporting applications with >> broken >> network behavior that won't be upgraded for a decade. > Well, then we stop using UDP. :-) Maybe the notion of implementing protocols such as RTP in the application isn't such a smart one after all. > Protocols built on top of UDP needs to > take care of this as ICMP clearly does not work. ICMP isn't the issue. The issue is that any kind of PMTUD in applications is just a very bad idea. >> For IPv4, an obvious method would be to send packets with DF=0 and >> hear from the other side how big the fragments are but that's not >> possible with IPv4. (That last IPv4 should be an IPv6.) > Yes, that would probably work. The question is how we get a feedback > channel that works. It has to be in-band because the out-of-band method (ICMP) is filtered in a small but significant number of all cases. Unfortunately, UDP doesn't support options and inserting IPv6 option headers or IPv4 options will almost certainly trigger the same filtering that makes using ICMP problematic. So the only choice would be adding something to the next higher protocol on top of UDP. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 12:37:41 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgNW9-0005XV-AM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:37:41 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgNW8-0004Um-4b for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:37:41 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgNUt-0005GT-G7 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:36:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgNUq-0005Fe-TD for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:36:22 +0000 Received: from [163.117.139.34] (nirrti.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.34]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9CGXJaM037604 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:33:22 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <470F8F14.1050205@wanadoo.fr> References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> <470F8F14.1050205@wanadoo.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <95C5FBAA-4106-4E31-B864-B900176BD9F4@muada.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:36:12 +0200 To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad On 12-okt-2007, at 17:13, R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote: > 2. Since IPv6 MTU is fixed, why would IPv6 ICMP be useful at all as =20= > far as MTU is concerned ? The IPv6 MTU isn't fixed, it just has a 1280 byte minimum. Nearly all =20= IPv6 hosts use larger packets and perform path MTU discovery, =20 resulting in even worse black holes than with IPv6 if the ICMP =20 messages are filtered because in IPv6 you can't clear the DF bit =20 because there isn't one.= From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 13:05:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgNx0-0007hO-Tp for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:05:26 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgNwz-0005Uf-Nk for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:05:26 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgNuO-0007se-CR for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:02:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgNuH-0007rT-SG for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:02:38 +0000 Received: from relay12.apple.com (relay12.apple.com [17.128.113.53]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D25C1582A70 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:02:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay12.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay12.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id 6323845C0001 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:02:37 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807135-a4422bb000000760-44-470fa8ac67a6 Received: from [17.206.23.177] (il0602a-dhcp49.apple.com [17.206.23.177]) by relay12.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 61C5F2809A for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:02:36 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <67038FA4-066F-4A8D-8765-10D3C6E11B9D@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:02:32 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f On Oct 12, 2007, at 07:23, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > It has to be in-band because the out-of-band method (ICMP) is > filtered in a small but significant number of all cases. > Unfortunately, UDP doesn't support options and inserting IPv6 > option headers or IPv4 options will almost certainly trigger the > same filtering that makes using ICMP problematic. So the only > choice would be adding something to the next higher protocol on top > of UDP. I'd hate to be repetitive and boring, but I'm shocked-- SHOCKED! I say-- to learn that stateful packet filtering is the root cause of so many problems for application transport. I have a radical proposal: how about we tell the stateful packet filter users that it's their own damned fault if their filters break their favorite applications, and that they can either fix their broken filters or they can turn them off? Since *when* has it been our job to reengineer the whole world because some idiot can't read the RFC series? PMTUD for IPv4/UDP could work just fine through NAT if the state matching and translation code isn't totally broken. The problem we are discussing here is in the wetware of the coders who write the NAT and stateful packet filter implementations. It's their problem if applications don't work because their filters don't pass ICMP through for corresponding UDP state-- *not* ours. Let's concentrate on the problems that belong to us. That's what I say. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 15:06:24 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgPq4-00025C-QK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 15:06:24 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgPpy-0000dr-Kq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 15:06:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgPll-000H4C-D3 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:01:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgPli-000H3t-Js for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:01:55 +0000 Received: (qmail 17043 invoked by uid 399); 12 Oct 2007 19:01:53 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO slave.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTP; 12 Oct 2007 19:01:53 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:01:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: james woodyatt cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU In-Reply-To: <67038FA4-066F-4A8D-8765-10D3C6E11B9D@apple.com> Message-ID: References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> <67038FA4-066F-4A8D-8765-10D3C6E11B9D@apple.com> X-OpenPGP-Key-ID: 0xD5B2F0FB X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, james woodyatt wrote: > I have a radical proposal: how about we tell the stateful packet filter users > that it's their own damned fault if their filters break their favorite > applications, and that they can either fix their broken filters or they can > turn them off? While I'm as sympathetic as the next guy to a good net.purist rant, if we want to find real solutions (where real is defined as useful for actual users) we need to look at the real problems. 99.9% of home users who go to Fry's and buy a Netgear/Linksys/D-Link or whatever "home router" don't have any idea what stateful packet filtering, PMTUD, or a lot of other things mean, and they shouldn't have to. It's unfortunate that PMTUD is broken on most of the IPv4 internet, but if we're going to do better with IPv6 we have to play the hand we've been dealt. Doug -- If you're never wrong, you're not trying hard enough From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 15:08:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgPrc-0004gq-3m for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 15:08:00 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgPra-0000h9-UP for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 15:08:00 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgPqi-000HN8-3s for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:07:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgPqf-000HMh-KL for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:07:02 +0000 Received: (qmail 23720 invoked by uid 399); 12 Oct 2007 19:07:00 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO slave.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTP; 12 Oct 2007 19:07:00 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 12:06:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Iljitsch van Beijnum cc: bob.hinden@nokia.com, IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB2E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E7783.8050809@gmail.com> <200710112228.52624.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB34@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E94F1.3060107@gmail.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB36@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> X-OpenPGP-Key-ID: 0xD5B2F0FB X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > There are basically two types of UDP protocols: the old / low volume ones > such as the DNS, where a 512 / 576 limit is explicitly or implicitly > understood, And of course this assumption is no longer valid in the EDNS0 world where UDP packets can be as large as 6k. Speaking of bad stateful firewalls, we've had enormous problems deploying EDNS0 in the wild due to firewalls that assume anything larger than 512 can't possibly be a DNS packet, so they drop them. And lest you think this is low end stuff, Cisco's PIX was one of the most common AND worst offenders till they finally created an update for it. Now all we have to do is go around to every single site that's having problems with larger packets and convince them to upgrade. and so it goes, Doug -- If you're never wrong, you're not trying hard enough From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 16:19:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgQz9-0000O7-NK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:19:51 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgQyz-0003GF-5r for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:19:51 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgQug-000MDc-CV for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:15:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-201.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [156.154.16.158] (helo=ns0.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgQuV-000MBG-Hc for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:15:04 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns0.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E8A1328EB; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:15:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IgQuU-0005dp-1W; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:15:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02.txt Message-Id: Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:15:02 -0400 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : Problem Statement of Default Address Selection in Multi-prefix Environment: Operational Issues of RFC3484 Default Rules Author(s) : A. Matsumoto, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2007-10-12 One physical network can carry multiple logical networks. Moreover, we can use multiple physical networks at the same time in a host. In that environment, end hosts might have multiple IP addresses and be required to use them selectively. Without an appropriate source/ destination address selection mechanism, the host will experience some trouble in communication. RFC 3484 defines both the source and destination address selection algorithms, but the multi-prefix environment considered here needs additional rules beyond those of the default operation. This document describes the possible problems that end hosts could encounter in an environment with multiple logical networks. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-10-12150527.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-10-12150527.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 16:19:53 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgQzB-0000Rl-5o for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:19:53 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgQz2-0003GV-Jl for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:19:53 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgQuY-000MCX-47 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:15:06 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-201.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO,USER_IN_WHITELIST autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [156.154.16.138] (helo=ns1.neustar.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgQuV-000MBD-CN for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:15:04 +0000 Received: from stiedprstage1.ietf.org (stiedprstage1.va.neustar.com [10.31.47.10]) by ns1.neustar.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 32F8E26E78; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:15:02 +0000 (GMT) Received: from ietf by stiedprstage1.ietf.org with local (Exim 4.43) id 1IgQuU-0005ds-2i; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:15:02 -0400 Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-03.txt Message-Id: Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:15:02 -0400 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : Requirements for address selection mechanisms Author(s) : A. Matsumoto, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-03.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2007-10-12 In a multi-prefix environment, nodes could have multiple addresses on one network interface. RFC 3484 defines a source and destination address-selection algorithm, which is commonly deployed in current popular OSs. However, nodes could encounter some difficulties in network communication when they use default address selection rules defined in RFC 3484. Some mechanisms for solving address-selection problems are proposed including the RFC 3484 policy table distribution and ICMP error-based mechanisms. This document describes requirements for these address-selection mechanisms. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-03.txt To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of the message. You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce to change your subscription settings. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then "get draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-03.txt". A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail. Send a message to: mailserv@ietf.org. In the body type: "FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-03.txt". NOTE: The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility. To use this feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE" command. To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or a MIME-compliant mail reader. Different MIME-compliant mail readers exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with "multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on how to manipulate these messages. Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Multipart/Alternative; Boundary="OtherAccess" --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; access-type="mail-server"; server="mailserv@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-10-12150654.I-D@ietf.org> ENCODING mime FILE /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-03.txt --OtherAccess Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2007-10-12150654.I-D@ietf.org> --OtherAccess-- --NextPart-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 16:27:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgR6C-0007GA-9g for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:27:08 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgR6A-0003h5-4w for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 16:27:08 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgR4q-000Myn-45 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:25:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgR4j-000MyC-Bd for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:25:38 +0000 Received: from relay11.apple.com (relay11.apple.com [17.128.113.48]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BBA915870D6 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay11.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay11.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id E73E028094 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:25:36 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807130-a3bc2bb000004daf-8a-470fd8405c0a Received: from [17.206.23.177] (il0602a-dhcp49.apple.com [17.206.23.177]) by relay11.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 8C59228057 for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> <67038FA4-066F-4A8D-8765-10D3C6E11B9D@apple.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:25:33 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: c0bedb65cce30976f0bf60a0a39edea4 On Oct 12, 2007, at 12:01, Doug Barton wrote: > On Fri, 12 Oct 2007, james woodyatt wrote: >> >> I have a radical proposal: how about we tell the stateful packet =20 >> filter users that it's their own damned fault if their filters =20 >> break their favorite applications, and that they can either fix =20 >> their broken filters or they can turn them off? > > While I'm as sympathetic as the next guy to a good net.purist rant, =20= > if we want to find real solutions (where real is defined as useful =20 > for actual users) we need to look at the real problems. > > 99.9% of home users who go to Fry's and buy a Netgear/Linksys/D-Link > or whatever "home router" don't have any idea what stateful packet =20 > filtering, PMTUD, or a lot of other things mean, and they shouldn't =20= > have to. It's unfortunate that PMTUD is broken on most of the IPv4 =20 > internet, but if we're going to do better with IPv6 we have to play =20= > the hand we've been dealt. I admire your appreciation for the virtues of pragmatism, but =20 respectfully, sir, I think my point was that we, the IETF, haven't =20 been dealt into this hand. PMTUD is broken on most of the IPv4 internet for the same reason it's =20= currently broken on most of the IPv6 internet: stateful packet =20 filters that don't properly admit ICMP errors corresponding to their =20 underlying IP flows. The best we can do as engineers in the business =20= of setting standards is to document what behaviors in stateful packet =20= filters are known to break which application protocols, and recommend =20= that equipment vendors and network operators choose to deploy =20 networks that comply as much as possible with the proposed =20 standards. If people don't want to do that, and they insist on =20 deploying network equipment that is engineered deliberately for =20 failure, then I don't see how writing another RFC will help undo =20 their basic malfunction. It is not a good idea for IETF to reinvent yet another way to pass =20 around traffic control messages that will be filtered improperly by =20 badly coded stateful packet filters with the result that applications =20= will be mysteriously broken in new and exciting ways for na=EFve users =20= without the technical ability to repair them. We already have a =20 method for passing such messages around today. It's called ICMP. It =20= works perfectly well when filters are absent or they are present and =20 coded properly. It could be made to work just as well in IPv4/NAT =20 and filtered IPv6 as it does today in unfiltered IPv6. If we invent =20 another mechanism, then we will just be inviting the filter coders =20 (hello? that's me!) to screw up our new mechanism just as badly as =20 they screwed up our old one. Don't think they won't try. They're =20 pretty resourceful when it comes to breaking the Internet. Some of =20 them (hi!) make a living doing it. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From Aleksander@diesigns.net Fri Oct 12 17:39:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgSEh-0005ql-1c for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:39:59 -0400 Received: from catv-d5de81b4.catv.broadband.hu ([213.222.129.180]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgSEf-0000Bl-EH for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:39:58 -0400 Received: by 10.96.96.218 with SMTP id bSDNZwrEwnVQd; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:40:03 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.64.29 with SMTP id IyQBpPRqrZhTbS.7921745993803; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:40:01 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: <000a01c80d18$7002ff80$b481ded5@warga7bb6cada6> From: "Aleksander koivula" To: Subject: ehreddur Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:39:58 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C80D29.338BCF80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.6 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C80D29.338BCF80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hello honey v6ops-archive CAUTION! she might be tight when you reach your new size, stretching may = be required Aleksander koivula http://www.alloannu.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C80D29.338BCF80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    hello honey v6ops-archive
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    http://www.alloannu.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C80D29.338BCF80-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 17:40:23 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgSF5-0006OA-UK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:40:23 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgSF4-0005tD-Op for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:40:23 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgSBF-0002Gw-KJ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:36:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [88.191.42.160] (helo=moog.chdir.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgSB8-0002G9-8T for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:36:24 +0000 Received: from [2001:7a8:78df:2:20d:93ff:fe55:8f78] (helo=localhost.localdomain) by moog.chdir.org with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1IgSAw-0002u2-35; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:36:06 +0200 From: arno@natisbad.org (Arnaud Ebalard) To: james woodyatt Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> <67038FA4-066F-4A8D-8765-10D3C6E11B9D@apple.com> X-GnuPG-Key: 0x047A5026 X-Hashcash: 1:20:071012:jhw@apple.com::UyFvexONBFuSDK0F:00000W1f X-Hashcash: 1:20:071012:v6ops@ops.ietf.org::3nwiOoQiq8k52XoS:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000004OEC Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 23:36:00 +0200 Message-ID: <87zlyoc8xr.fsf@natisbad.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.0.95 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 Hi, james woodyatt writes: > [ snipped things i agree with ] > > Let's concentrate on the problems that belong to us. That's what I say. IMHO, the local issues can be solved ... locally, i.e. in home and corporate networks. Problems in the core are the real issue here: it's unbearable that people from ISP or having some power on devices in the core implement stupid filtering or deploy devices that simply do not work. Let's correct that with AWARENESS. What about simply: 1) pointing the finger at the people that do that: among the operator community, their reactivity (or lack of) will (slowly) create some feedback. For ISP, end users will simply know that things do not work smoothly with A and then select B. I don't know for peering. 2) referencing the brands that have devices that do that (i.e. bad implementations): the market will do the rest. Let me be first: one of my ISP in France provides native IPv6 for their ADSL service (they are the only one here, AFAIK). Basically, the connectivity from the client's router to the LNS is provided either by France Telecom or 9/Cegetel. When it's 9/Cegetel, you get an asymmetric MTU: IPv6 packets larger than 1473 bytes sent by peers are just dropped when they come back. Annoying to say the least ... I have spent hours with people of my provider debugging that issue (before switching to their SDSL service) and we get to the conclusion that it was associated with the way IPv6 traffic encapsulation was done by the devices in 9/Cegetel network. From what i get (_NO_ certainty on that one), the issue is related to the L2TP implementation of HUAWEI devices in 9/Cegetel network. I have put someone of my ISP in Bcc, he might provide more specific feedback (or correct me). Let's start referencing the faulty devices/networks/admins, this might lead somewhere ... like having PMTUD working on the IPv6 internet. Note that i don't think v6ops is the best place to do that. a+ ps: in parallel, just like another client of my ISP (in Bcc), i implemented TCP MSS clamping for IPv6 traffic for Linux but this is just a workaround (IKE traffic obviously still get killed, for instance). From JerroldsectorLangley@43people.com Fri Oct 12 19:03:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgTX2-0004wy-M5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:03:00 -0400 Received: from 78stb19.codetel.net.do ([64.32.89.78] helo=izquierda) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgTX2-0002Hx-BD for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:03:00 -0400 Received: from splenetic by 43people.com with SMTP id H9Owumf4pG for ; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 19:01:39 +0400 From: "Robt Cooke" To: Subject: Download our casino in 20 seconds to get $2400 richer when you join. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C80D34.D89DF470-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 12 20:37:34 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgV0Y-0000IS-0g for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:37:34 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgV0Q-0003pF-Mj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 12 Oct 2007 20:37:31 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgUuV-000IP9-SZ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:31:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [60.234.76.2] (helo=unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgUuO-000IOU-Vj for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 00:31:18 +0000 Received: from [10.0.1.198] (unknown [202.20.97.135]) by unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 309B9272EC for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:31:11 +1300 (NZDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <2D470CEF-DFA9-4ED5-BAB5-22F12D0ED400@daork.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: v6ops WG From: Nathan Ward Subject: 6to4 relay and Teredo relay load - Bittorrent Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:31:10 +1300 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Hi all, Are any people operating 6to4 or Teredo relays publishing graphs of packetrate and bitrate through their relays? I've just observed my Bittorrent client (Azureus) doing what I assume is DHT (Distributed Hash Table) stuff over IPv6. The concern I have is that it's doing stuff from my 6to4 address to 'native' v6 addresses, and Teredo addresses - which would produce a higher load on the public relays for those protocols (probably). So, anyone out there who can share data with me? :-) -- Nathan Ward ps. I'd actually planned on getting in touch with the Azureus guys and trying to get IPv6 integrated in to their client - but make it behave in such a way that it was nice to the relays, at least to start with. I was slack. From gorinu@013.net Sat Oct 13 03:19:42 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgbHi-0006Pu-0x for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 03:19:42 -0400 Received: from [58.142.119.129] (helo=013.net) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgbHO-0000Yv-Ee for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 03:19:42 -0400 Message-ID: <001a01c80db4$d1fe2fb0$0785edec@7609jymo6wljigq> From: "Alexis French" To: "v6ops-archive" Subject: looks matter. 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You have to believe these prices! http://natileplea.com.cn From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Oct 13 05:41:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgdVL-00041E-Jv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 05:41:55 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgdVB-0005Ky-De for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 05:41:51 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgdOu-0009j8-8M for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:35:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [194.1.163.39] (helo=abaddon.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgdOr-0009ii-Bx for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:35:14 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:7b8:301:2:216:cfff:fe00:e7d0] (spaghetti.dapke.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:7b8:301:2:216:cfff:fe00:e7d0]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by abaddon.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20762402012; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:35:07 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4710914A.1030801@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:35:06 +0200 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070728 Thunderbird/2.0.0.6 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nathan Ward CC: v6ops WG , IPv6 Ops list Subject: Re: 6to4 relay and Teredo relay load - Bittorrent References: <2D470CEF-DFA9-4ED5-BAB5-22F12D0ED400@daork.net> In-Reply-To: <2D470CEF-DFA9-4ED5-BAB5-22F12D0ED400@daork.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig246F39D05845A114591BD1B0" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on abaddon.unfix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig246F39D05845A114591BD1B0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [cc'd to ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de which contains network operators and not the folks defining how to operate it] Nathan Ward wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > Are any people operating 6to4 or Teredo relays publishing graphs of > packetrate and bitrate through their relays? I can only assume that it is less than 10mbit in most cases, this looking at AMS-IX traffic graphs[1] and the ones from SixXS[2], the latter being almost quite a large bit of the AMS-IX traffic graphs (even has the same forms, which is quite funny). As AMS-IX is only doing 50mbit on peek time, when Teredo/6to4 traffic is more than 10mbit it would be more amazing than Mars[3]. Of course this is a bit of guess work and Teredo/6to4 traffic might partially avoid IX's or show up as IPv4 there. It would be fun to get an analysis of a heavy box though. But I can only assume that the usages are primarily: NNTP, bit of HTTP, SMTP and IRC. > I've just observed my Bittorrent client (Azureus) doing what I assume i= s > DHT (Distributed Hash Table) stuff over IPv6. >=20 > The concern I have is that it's doing stuff from my 6to4 address to > 'native' v6 addresses, and Teredo addresses - which would produce a > higher load on the public relays for those protocols (probably). If you don't want or can't handle the traffic then either: - limit how far your 6to4 relay announces itself in BGP - don't run it and other similar options. This is btw why I am not a big proponent of 6to4: as a network operator you don't have much control over the path taken for packets by 6to4 hosts, nor who uses the relay in your network. > ps. I'd actually planned on getting in touch with the Azureus guys and > trying to get IPv6 integrated in to their client - but make it behave i= n > such a way that it was nice to the relays, at least to start with. I wa= s > slack. Be happy that they already have IPv6 implemented, BT might actually be one of the few things that might generate lots of traffic on IPv6. Current IPv6 traffic levels are simply pathetic. For folks wanting to know which BitTorrent clients work over IPv6, please check: http://www.sixxs.net/tools/tracker/clients/ That system also has an IPv6-only tracker service where people can upload their files upto and it will be properly seeded for other folks to download. Greets, Jeroen [1] http://www.ams-ix.net/technical/stats/sflow_stats_ipv6.html [2] http://www.sixxs.net/misc/traffic/ [3] http://nl.youtube.com/watch?v=3D6-OnKakA8TY :) --------------enig246F39D05845A114591BD1B0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkcQkUouFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58I51LAKCx9Ss64oigo1FO/ah2WLcGH7zr BQCgiEpCHiL2zX6m8/nwIJBjJstJxOs= =1F/6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig246F39D05845A114591BD1B0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Oct 13 07:51:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgfWg-0002Bu-C3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 07:51:26 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgfWf-0000Po-6W for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 07:51:26 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgfSZ-000M8w-Af for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:47:11 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgfSS-000M7V-Hw for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:47:10 +0000 Received: (qmail 8263 invoked by uid 1007); 13 Oct 2007 11:47:03 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=XmhgGdFZbXFWCB57ksw/ahGqeFL+qicTra9k4K1IlCJBPyH3PBYmFXI8xTdsjfe6 ; Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:47:03 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: james woodyatt Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Message-ID: <20071013114703.GK69215@Space.Net> References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> <67038FA4-066F-4A8D-8765-10D3C6E11B9D@apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <67038FA4-066F-4A8D-8765-10D3C6E11B9D@apple.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007 Hi, On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 10:02:32AM -0700, james woodyatt wrote: > I'd hate to be repetitive and boring, but I'm shocked-- SHOCKED! I > say-- to learn that stateful packet filtering is the root cause of so > many problems for application transport. Actually the problem has nothing to do with stateful packet filtering (except where the firewall doesn't get it right), but much more with - stupid admins "ICMP is so evil, we must forbid it" - broken IP mangling devices, like load balancers or NATs, that cannot correctly handle incoming ICMP packet-too-big packets. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Oct 13 07:52:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgfXZ-0002g2-82 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 07:52:21 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgfXY-0000R2-2B for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 07:52:21 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgfWi-000MWW-LN for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:51:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgfWb-000MVc-8p for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 11:51:23 +0000 Received: (qmail 12407 invoked by uid 1007); 13 Oct 2007 11:51:20 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=AMqPvuus4fiqMwTZBavB5mmBWhGgVIVPasS03WnbLCaJ3wMMYpg8Il0w9B7BT+OV ; Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:51:20 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: "Templin, Fred L" Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Magnus Westerlund , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi?= Denis-Courmont , Christian Huitema , Arnaud Ebalard , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Message-ID: <20071013115120.GL69215@Space.Net> References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB2E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB2E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Hi, On Thu, Oct 11, 2007 at 09:52:05AM -0700, Templin, Fred L wrote: > I would hope that we could at least ping. Or, is that > off the table as well? As long as security "experts" go around and tell people "you must switch off ping to your servers, because that's a security hole" -> off the table. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 122119 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From Raley@navarre-beach.net Sat Oct 13 10:36:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Igi5z-0002Ic-4g for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:36:03 -0400 Received: from [82.141.159.97] (helo=ip33.oroscom.hu) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Igi5j-0003oz-DV for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 10:35:47 -0400 Received: by 10.34.36.150 with SMTP id ffxQsejwjAgqQ; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:35:54 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.205.187 with SMTP id IDmHYxwfyuUwaO.4149321970957; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:35:52 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: <42D2FE69.5FD38BEB@navarre-beach.net> Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:35:49 +0200 From: "GRIFFIN Raley" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: taktlyse Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed What's happening v6ops-archive if you like cumming on tits, now you can smother her in your sperm which will be boosted by up to 500%! thats heaps. GRIFFIN Raley http://anarasha.com/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Oct 13 12:12:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Igjbm-0003hK-Nb for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 12:12:58 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Igjbi-00012R-P5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 12:12:56 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgjWH-000MSi-0k for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:07:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgjWA-000MRq-EA for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 16:07:15 +0000 Received: from relay13.apple.com (relay13.apple.com [17.128.113.29]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC080150F576; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay13.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay13.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id ADC3228058; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:07:07 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 1180711d-a2df3bb000000861-b7-4710ed2b0f66 Received: from [17.151.88.108] (unknown [17.151.88.108]) by relay13.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id 6D85928057; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <4710914A.1030801@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> References: <2D470CEF-DFA9-4ED5-BAB5-22F12D0ED400@daork.net> <4710914A.1030801@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <7E668EFD-1667-4AFC-A6D0-675C8BAB2D14@apple.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: 6to4 relay and Teredo relay load - Bittorrent Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:07:03 -0700 To: Nathan Ward , v6ops WG , IPv6 Ops list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 On Oct 13, 2007, at 02:35, Jeroen Massar wrote: > > Be happy that they already have IPv6 implemented, BT might actually be > one of the few things that might generate lots of traffic on IPv6. Highly unlikely. Ubiquitous IPv6 stateful packet filters that behave the same way as the filters in IPv4/NAT gateways will give BitTorrent users the same hassles on IPv6 as they currently endure on IPv4/NAT. The incentive for BitTorrent users to migrate to IPv4 simply isn't there unless they're willing to turn off those filters. So far, there appears to be no let up in the demand for these filters on IPv6. It's possible that a long-term solution to this problem might emerge in five or ten years, but I wouldn't expect much before then. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Oct 13 13:16:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Igkap-0002l5-Jj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:16:03 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Igkaj-0003YW-Dl for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:16:03 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgkZi-0003fB-2c for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:14:54 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgkZf-0003ec-9U for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:14:52 +0000 Received: from basile.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:211:11ff:fe25:e6b4]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E2D7967F1; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:14:48 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, IPv6 Ops list Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU (was Re: Teredo MTU logic) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:14:46 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 References: <87abrcmtvn.fsf@natisbad.org> <87r6kol9ur.fsf@natisbad.org> <200709272215.16068.rdenis@simphalempin.com> In-Reply-To: <200709272215.16068.rdenis@simphalempin.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200710132014.46528.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Le Thursday 27 September 2007 22:15:15, vous avez =E9crit=A0: > 3) get rough consensus that there are no paths on the IPv4 Internet with a > MTU larger or equal to 1308 bytes (the current "outer" Teredo MTU), but > smaller than 1348 bytes (or any slightly bigger value)? Then, it is safe = to > update everything to a bigger inner MTU of 1320 bytes (or more); it will > not cause any extra on-path fragmentation. In fact, it will even diminish > the overhead. > > So my naive question of the day is: > Does anyone have any practical case for an IPv4 path MTU within [1308;134= 8[ > ? So, am I going to be banned of v6ops with lots of blames if I set the=20 non-Microsoft Teredo server to advertise a 1320 bytes MTU any time? Or 1400= =20 bytes? =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Oct 13 13:16:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Igkav-0002oL-Kl for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:16:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Igkar-0003Yv-E5 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 13:16:09 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgkWH-0003NV-Q8 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:11:21 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [194.242.114.73] (helo=poy.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgkW6-0003MH-7V for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 17:11:16 +0000 Received: from basile.remlab.net (unknown [IPv6:2002:3e4e:969c:0:211:11ff:fe25:e6b4]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: remi) by poy.chewa.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A30C0967F1; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:11:08 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Organization: Remlab.net To: james woodyatt Subject: Re: 6to4 relay and Teredo relay load - Bittorrent Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:11:05 +0300 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Cc: Nathan Ward , v6ops WG , IPv6 Ops list References: <2D470CEF-DFA9-4ED5-BAB5-22F12D0ED400@daork.net> <4710914A.1030801@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <7E668EFD-1667-4AFC-A6D0-675C8BAB2D14@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <7E668EFD-1667-4AFC-A6D0-675C8BAB2D14@apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200710132011.05583.rdenis@simphalempin.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Le Saturday 13 October 2007 19:07:03 james woodyatt, vous avez =E9crit=A0: > On Oct 13, 2007, at 02:35, Jeroen Massar wrote: > > Be happy that they already have IPv6 implemented, BT might actually be > > one of the few things that might generate lots of traffic on IPv6. > > Highly unlikely. Ubiquitous IPv6 stateful packet filters that behave > the same way as the filters in IPv4/NAT gateways will give BitTorrent > users the same hassles on IPv6 as they currently endure on IPv4/NAT. > The incentive for BitTorrent users to migrate to IPv4 simply isn't > there unless they're willing to turn off those filters. Precisely not if they use 6to4 and Teredo =E0 la Windows way of doing unman= aged=20 IPv6 transition. =2D-=20 R=E9mi Denis-Courmont http://www.remlab.net/ From rokny@suturex-renodex.com Sat Oct 13 18:10:18 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgpBa-0005dW-05 for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 18:10:18 -0400 Received: from [190.42.241.246] (helo=190.42.241.246) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgpBL-0003pS-3H for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 18:10:13 -0400 Received: from [190.42.241.246] by ns0.oleane.net; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 22:09:50 +0000 Message-ID: <000501c80de5$024f2629$a55b0586@tswbqeoa> From: "byrann" To: Subject: [0]: Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 20:22:27 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed The largest in the United States music & video portal. 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Ubiquitous IPv6 stateful packet filters that > behave the same way as the filters in IPv4/NAT gateways will give > BitTorrent users the same hassles on IPv6 as they currently endure > on IPv4/NAT. The incentive for BitTorrent users to migrate to IPv4 > simply isn't there unless they're willing to turn off those filters. > > So far, there appears to be no let up in the demand for these > filters on IPv6. It's possible that a long-term solution to this > problem might emerge in five or ten years, but I wouldn't expect > much before then. Of the hosts that attempted to connect to me: - Over 50% had 135/TCP open. - Several had 22/TCP open, and everything else closed (returning RST). - One had 80/TCP open, and everything else simply dropping packets. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C80E15.41FEAA50-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Oct 14 01:08:48 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Igvfc-0003jp-42 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 01:05:44 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgvTH-0004DQ-Aa for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 00:53:05 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgvMy-000EEE-0x for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 04:46:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [209.85.198.186] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgvMr-000EDk-NE for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 04:46:26 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so1309323rvf for ; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 21:46:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.48.10 with SMTP id a10mr2074683rvk.1192303094106; Sat, 13 Oct 2007 12:18:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?10.1.1.7? ( [222.153.8.68]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f13sm3492285rvb.2007.10.13.12.18.11 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 13 Oct 2007 12:18:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <471119EA.6010108@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 08:18:02 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Magnus Westerlund CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> In-Reply-To: <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad ... >> For IPv4, an obvious method would be to send packets with DF=0 and hear from the other side how big the fragments are but that's not possible with IPv4. >> > > Yes, that would probably work. The question is how we get a feedback > channel that works. And that's exactly where I'm suggesting a UDP echo process on its own port, which has a much better chance of being allowed by firewalls than ICMP. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Oct 14 01:08:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Igvfc-0003jp-3H for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 01:05:44 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgvU9-0004Ef-1D for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 00:53:54 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgvSg-000Ec3-ND for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 04:52:22 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [60.234.76.2] (helo=unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IgvSd-000Ebg-Rn for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 04:52:21 +0000 Received: from [10.0.1.198] (unknown [202.20.97.135]) by unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8E792753C; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:52:17 +1300 (NZDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2D470CEF-DFA9-4ED5-BAB5-22F12D0ED400@daork.net> <4710914A.1030801@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <7E668EFD-1667-4AFC-A6D0-675C8BAB2D14@apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <2317292C-F5EB-4738-8FE8-6062F94C420A@daork.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan Ward Subject: Re: 6to4 relay and Teredo relay load - Bittorrent. Now with numbers! Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:52:17 +1300 To: v6ops WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 On 14/10/2007, at 12:24 PM, Nathan Ward wrote: > > On 14/10/2007, at 5:07 AM, james woodyatt wrote: > >> On Oct 13, 2007, at 02:35, Jeroen Massar wrote: >>> >>> Be happy that they already have IPv6 implemented, BT might >>> actually be >>> one of the few things that might generate lots of traffic on IPv6. >> >> Highly unlikely. Ubiquitous IPv6 stateful packet filters that >> behave the same way as the filters in IPv4/NAT gateways will give >> BitTorrent users the same hassles on IPv6 as they currently endure >> on IPv4/NAT. The incentive for BitTorrent users to migrate to >> IPv4 simply isn't there unless they're willing to turn off those >> filters. >> >> So far, there appears to be no let up in the demand for these >> filters on IPv6. It's possible that a long-term solution to this >> problem might emerge in five or ten years, but I wouldn't expect >> much before then. > > Of the hosts that attempted to connect to me: > - Over 50% had 135/TCP open. > - Several had 22/TCP open, and everything else closed (returning RST). > - One had 80/TCP open, and everything else simply dropping packets. > > That 135/TCP is open is certainly surprising - these were all hosts > using the Windows-like single-host-on-6to4 addressing, ie. > 2002:V4V4:V4V4::V4V4:V4V4. I did some more digging. Here's some interesting data: - 1 hour of collecting packets directed to my BT client's DHT port (it uses UDP). - 3134 unique hosts talked to me. - 1535 IPv4 - 1599 IPv6 (!!) IPv6 hosts: - 20 were non-6to4 (ie outside 2002::/16) - zero were Teredo (ie 2001::/32) IPv6 6to4 (2002::/16) hosts: - 1288 were "Windows-style" 6to4 addresses - as mentioned above. - 19 were using a non-zero "subnet" part (ie, bits 49-64 inclusive), more detail below. Non-windows style addresses (291 hosts): - 277 were using EUI-64, and all had the locally administered bit set. - 14 were not using EUI-64, 9 of these had a non-zero subnet part. Only one had :: in the address, bits 49-128 were 1::1. - No MAC-48. 6to4 "subnet" part (only 19 hosts): - Only one had 0x0001 in the subnet part, and zero had 0x000a or greater. The bit I find the most astonishing, is the ratio of v4:v6 hosts. My understanding of BT's DHT is that it is used to find peers to exchange data with - this means that if DHT is effective, there's likely to be a huge amount of BT data between DHT peers going over 6to4. Luckily, only a very small amount (0.63%) is likely to go via a 6to4 relay. Also interesting is where people are not using EUI-64. I guess this is using the privacy extensions stuff. I noted that of the hosts I attempted to send DHT data to, the ones that didn't reply were about 20% IPv6 and 80% IPv4. As I look higher in the number of reply packets, the hosts that replied were about 95% IPv6 and 5% IPv4. That indicates to me that IPv6 is working around the IPv4 NAT problem better than the available IPv4 solutions for this application. Of the traffic coming to my IP addresses, 62% was IPv6 and 38% was IPv4. I'll see if I can get "replied" percentages for IPv4 and IPv6, where I sent data to a host and got a reply vs. didn't get a reply. I'm not sure if that's relevant though, as this is UDP and might not have any kind of response required at a higher level. If there is a response required, I'll see if I can find some hosts who I have talked to over both IPv4 and IPv6, and see if there's any notable lack of replies when using either protocol. -- Nathan Ward From cuthbert7@ltindia.com Sun Oct 14 02:43:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgxC5-0005Ct-8Q for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 02:43:21 -0400 Received: from [218.101.187.16] (helo=218.101.187.16) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IgxC4-0004li-KM for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 02:43:21 -0400 Received: from [218.101.187.16] by mail.ltindia.com; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 06:43:08 +0000 Message-ID: <000501c80e2d$04b0463a$76322ba3@jluofwru> From: "daryle ryota" To: Subject: Las Vegas Casino Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 04:55:45 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 08e48e05374109708c00c6208b534009 Golden Gate Fair gamming Black jack and more more games Free welcome bonus 2400 $ www.vegas1stcasino.com From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Oct 14 07:02:07 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ih1EV-0000g0-Is for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 07:02:07 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ih1ER-000760-AB for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 07:02:03 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ih16O-000DWs-Ja for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 10:53:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ih16H-000DWG-V3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 10:53:39 +0000 Received: from [163.117.139.34] ([163.117.139.34]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9EAmn0P076567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 14 Oct 2007 12:49:06 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <87zlyoc8xr.fsf@natisbad.org> References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> <67038FA4-066F-4A8D-8765-10D3C6E11B9D@apple.com> <87zlyoc8xr.fsf@natisbad.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <124E3928-D13A-408E-A073-BCFF8182307F@muada.com> Cc: james woodyatt , IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:02:56 +0200 To: Arnaud Ebalard X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 30ac594df0e66ffa5a93eb4c48bcb014 On 12-okt-2007, at 23:36, Arnaud Ebalard wrote: > IPv6 packets larger than 1473 bytes sent by peers are just dropped > when they come back. Annoying to say the least ... A good way to work around that is by having your router advertise an IPv6 MTU of that size. Your hosts will then automatically reduce their packet sizes and advertise a reduced TCP MSS option. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Oct 14 07:02:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ih1EW-0000hR-RS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 07:02:08 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ih1EQ-0000iC-LR for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 07:02:08 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ih14k-000DM7-R8 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 10:52:02 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ih14d-000DKZ-UR for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 10:51:57 +0000 Received: from [163.117.139.34] ([163.117.139.34]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9EAmn0N076567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 14 Oct 2007 12:48:52 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <67038FA4-066F-4A8D-8765-10D3C6E11B9D@apple.com> References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> <67038FA4-066F-4A8D-8765-10D3C6E11B9D@apple.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 18:56:03 +0200 To: james woodyatt X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8b30eb7682a596edff707698f4a80f7d On 12-okt-2007, at 19:02, james woodyatt wrote: > I have a radical proposal: how about we tell the stateful packet > filter users that it's their own damned fault if their filters > break their favorite applications, and that they can either fix > their broken filters or they can turn them off? We can't; they'd filter the message. :-) > PMTUD for IPv4/UDP could work just fine through NAT if the state > matching and translation code isn't totally broken. The problem we > are discussing here is in the wetware of the coders who write the > NAT and stateful packet filter implementations. It's their problem > if applications don't work because their filters don't pass ICMP > through for corresponding UDP state-- *not* ours. Good rant. At some point, when people insist on breaking stuff, you have to stop glueing them back together. What I find utterly infuriating about the whole PMTUD issue is that people still set the DF bit and then proceed to filter the too big messages. You can do either if you like, just not both at the same time. That said, the problem is so widespread that it makes sense to work around it. Also, the IETF is at fault for adopting such a fragile protocol. Setting the DF bit on 1 in 10 packets would give almost identical results when everything works but only cause some slowdown when they don't. You can't build a protocol that completely fails if a third party not under your control doesn't do what you expect them to do. I really like what we came up with in shim6: the signalling and data packets all share the same protocol number. So people either filter all shim6 packets, in which case they won't be able to run shim6 but there are no other ill effects, or they let the shim6 packets through and it works. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Oct 14 07:02:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ih1Ed-0000kG-3W for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 07:02:15 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ih1EW-0000iO-U3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 07:02:15 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ih157-000DOL-Cp for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 10:52:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, DATE_IN_PAST_12_24,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ih14z-000DN9-3W for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 10:52:22 +0000 Received: from [163.117.139.34] ([163.117.139.34]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9EAmn0O076567 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 14 Oct 2007 12:49:01 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB2E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E7783.8050809@gmail.com> <200710112228.52624.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB34@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <470E94F1.3060107@gmail.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDB36@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <12AF8AC5-5592-4DC9-BF43-B2DFDE780648@muada.com> Cc: bob.hinden@nokia.com, IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 18:58:15 +0200 To: Doug Barton X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.8 (+) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 On 12-okt-2007, at 21:06, Doug Barton wrote: >> There are basically two types of UDP protocols: the old / low >> volume ones such as the DNS, where a 512 / 576 limit is explicitly >> or implicitly understood, > And of course this assumption is no longer valid in the EDNS0 world > where UDP packets can be as large as 6k. I should do some checking to see how many implementations advertise an EDNS0 size larger than 1500 and set the DF bit. A while back there was at least one root server that set the DF bit which causes breakage with an MTU lower than 450 bytes because obviously they don't retry with smaller packets when a "too big" is returned. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Oct 14 11:42:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ih5bx-0006sB-0N for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:42:37 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ih5bq-0006Ln-Qm for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 11:42:31 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ih5WF-000FVG-QX for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:36:43 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [88.191.42.160] (helo=moog.chdir.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ih5WB-000FUL-Og for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:36:42 +0000 Received: from [2001:7a8:78df:2:20d:93ff:fe55:8f78] (helo=localhost.localdomain) by moog.chdir.org with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Ih5Vx-0003uj-2d; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:36:25 +0200 From: arno@natisbad.org (Arnaud Ebalard) To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Cc: james woodyatt , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> <67038FA4-066F-4A8D-8765-10D3C6E11B9D@apple.com> <87zlyoc8xr.fsf@natisbad.org> <124E3928-D13A-408E-A073-BCFF8182307F@muada.com> X-GnuPG-Key: 0x047A5026 X-Hashcash: 1:20:071014:iljitsch@muada.com::0v+5rm6v8oAfikn8:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000WAM X-Hashcash: 1:20:071014:jhw@apple.com::QoAS5xutuZAmzT26:00000ghm X-Hashcash: 1:20:071014:v6ops@ops.ietf.org::bHXak0Dqsyld7KHT:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000002iZB Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 14:33:11 +0200 In-Reply-To: <124E3928-D13A-408E-A073-BCFF8182307F@muada.com> (Iljitsch van Beijnum's message of "Sat, 13 Oct 2007 19:02:56 +0200") Message-ID: <874pgtx4e0.fsf@natisbad.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.0.95 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a Hi, Iljitsch van Beijnum writes: > On 12-okt-2007, at 23:36, Arnaud Ebalard wrote: > >> IPv6 packets larger than 1473 bytes sent by peers are just dropped >> when they come back. Annoying to say the least ... > > A good way to work around that is by having your router advertise an > IPv6 MTU of that size. Your hosts will then automatically reduce > their packet sizes and advertise a reduced TCP MSS option. I prefer MSS clamping, because it provides the same final result, but does not make the communications inside my site undergo a reduced MTU. It also allows me to configure it only at a single location (edge router) instead of doing it on a bunch of devices. On my specific case, the MTU being asymmetric, i even get the benefit of 1500 bytes MTU for outgoing traffic. Don't get me wrong, i *hate* mangling packets but it's IMHO a cleaner workaround in that specific case. a+ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Oct 14 13:45:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ih7XL-0004w3-Qi for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:45:59 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ih7XK-0000Re-L4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:45:59 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ih7S5-0001HF-Ss for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:40:33 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ih7Rz-0001GE-66 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 17:40:28 +0000 Received: from [163.117.139.34] (nirrti.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.34]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9EHa3mL083025 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:36:04 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <874pgtx4e0.fsf@natisbad.org> References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> <67038FA4-066F-4A8D-8765-10D3C6E11B9D@apple.com> <87zlyoc8xr.fsf@natisbad.org> <124E3928-D13A-408E-A073-BCFF8182307F@muada.com> <874pgtx4e0.fsf@natisbad.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: james woodyatt , IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:38:53 +0200 To: arno@natisbad.org (Arnaud Ebalard) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: de4f315c9369b71d7dd5909b42224370 On 14-okt-2007, at 14:33, Arnaud Ebalard wrote: >> A good way to work around that is by having your router advertise an >> IPv6 MTU of that size. Your hosts will then automatically reduce >> their packet sizes and advertise a reduced TCP MSS option. > I prefer MSS clamping, because it provides the same final result, but > does not make the communications inside my site undergo a reduced MTU. Right. Rewriting the MSS is an ugly hack, though. > It also allows me to configure it only at a single location (edge > router) instead of doing it on a bunch of devices. You only have to let routers that send router advertisement include a smaller MTU, no need to adjust settings on hosts. From ariel@mountainzone.com Sun Oct 14 14:38:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ih8MU-0005kI-N5 for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 14:38:50 -0400 Received: from [60.52.27.18] (helo=52.60.in-addr.arpa.tm.net.my) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ih8MP-0007SN-5o for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 14:38:45 -0400 Received: from [60.52.27.18] by ns5.secureserver.net; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:38:08 +0000 Message-ID: <000901c80e91$05a677af$bc5c2b80@lyyutnyn> From: "Shaiman" To: Subject: [9]: Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:50:46 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 1.4 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 7aefe408d50e9c7c47615841cb314bed What is OEM? OEM means Original Equipment Manufacturer . In general it is 100% fully functional software. But it lacks manuals, promo-discs and bulk-boxes. We offer the software for downloads only. It means that you do not receive a fancy package and a printed manual that actually aggregate the largest part of the retail price. And one more advantage of OEM Software is that you don't need to wait for delivery. You can download and install you software at once after paying for it. http://mrmyrfe.theplatinumsoft.net From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Oct 14 16:32:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhA8x-0001w2-KT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:32:59 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhA8n-0004H0-AC for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 16:32:54 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IhA3c-000HMe-B6 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:27:28 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [88.191.42.160] (helo=moog.chdir.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IhA3Z-000HMB-KH for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:27:26 +0000 Received: from [2001:7a8:78df:2:20d:93ff:fe55:8f78] (helo=localhost.localdomain) by moog.chdir.org with esmtpsa (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1IhA3P-0005f0-1h; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:27:15 +0200 From: arno@natisbad.org (Arnaud Ebalard) To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Cc: james woodyatt , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU References: X-GnuPG-Key: 0x047A5026 X-Hashcash: 1:20:071014:jhw@apple.com::iRT6y55qneGh26JZ:00000fMN X-Hashcash: 1:20:071014:iljitsch@muada.com::tQuzyoKkr3fuluGu:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000001+Kz X-Hashcash: 1:20:071014:v6ops@ops.ietf.org::WiNhdm0doCY2uiB+:00000000000000000000000000000000000000000002IxP Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:27:02 +0200 In-Reply-To: (Iljitsch van Beijnum's message of "Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:38:53 +0200") Message-ID: <87fy0d5tnt.fsf@natisbad.org> User-Agent: Gnus/5.110006 (No Gnus v0.6) Emacs/22.0.95 (gnu/linux) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 Hi, Iljitsch van Beijnum writes: > On 14-okt-2007, at 14:33, Arnaud Ebalard wrote: > > You only have to let routers that send router advertisement include a > smaller MTU, no need to adjust settings on hosts. You misunderstood me. Obviously i do not need to adjust settings on my hosts, i don't know where you read that in my previous emails. My point was that given the number of subnets I have, this means a lot of configuration on my routers. BTW, please consider gigabit links carrying jumbo frames and compare the *real* drawbacks of your "solution" with those of MSS clamping (note again that I'm for E2E). In the end, you will probably come to the conclusion that setting the MTU of the link to a suboptimal value just for dealing with a problem in my ISP's network is a worst hack than MSS clamping ... a+ From CindycodonDonahue@gambling365.com Sun Oct 14 18:15:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhBkO-0008BT-Bq for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:15:44 -0400 Received: from pc-224-151-86-200.cm.vtr.net ([200.86.151.224] helo=particular) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhBkH-0003IR-PV for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 18:15:38 -0400 Message-ID: <4585e01c80e85$c5ebbfe0$e09756c8@particular> From: "Grace Gore" To: Subject: Some of the most competitive rates available Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:13:50 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_4585A_01C80E85.C5EBBFE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2869 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 4.9 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_4585A_01C80E85.C5EBBFE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Let us assist with the placement of working capital business loans for = small to medium sized businesses in all 50 states We've created an affordable, simple, and flexible approach to providing = working capital of $5,000 to $500,000 or more. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_4585A_01C80E85.C5EBBFE0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Oct 14 20:26:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhDmv-00030x-I2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:26:29 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhDmi-0000Dk-GL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 14 Oct 2007 20:26:22 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IhDgy-000A5n-Mv for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:20:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [60.234.76.2] (helo=unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IhDgr-000A5R-GJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:20:14 +0000 Received: from [202.20.97.138] (unknown [202.20.97.138]) by unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0FA62724D for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:20:11 +1300 (NZDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <2317292C-F5EB-4738-8FE8-6062F94C420A@daork.net> References: <2D470CEF-DFA9-4ED5-BAB5-22F12D0ED400@daork.net> <4710914A.1030801@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <7E668EFD-1667-4AFC-A6D0-675C8BAB2D14@apple.com> <2317292C-F5EB-4738-8FE8-6062F94C420A@daork.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <9FC3900F-89A3-40B1-A815-387C8DD9F49C@daork.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan Ward Subject: Re: 6to4 relay and Teredo relay load - Bittorrent. Now with numbers! Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 13:20:12 +1300 To: v6ops WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 79899194edc4f33a41f49410777972f8 On 14/10/2007, at 5:52 PM, Nathan Ward wrote: > Exciting times. From the Azureus changelog for v3.0.2.0, August 20 2007: - Core | IPv6 support - dht, version server, tracker and improved transport This corresponds with at least one 6to4 relay's increase in traffic. (only up about 1kbit/s, but it's about 2-3 times what it was before. I believe that this particular relay is in front of a large number of broadband and dial customers, but there appears to be very little 'intentional' v6 traffic that traverses it, as it's mainly average home/business users. -- Nathan Ward From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 15 00:41:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhHlO-00083b-Tm for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:41:10 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhHlE-0006Vp-3m for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:41:06 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IhHfJ-0006f1-SO for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 04:34:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [66.117.47.212] (helo=mx1.hotnic.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IhHfD-0006ea-5Z for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 04:34:48 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:4810:1:0:c5c1:1e5f:de73:1e28] ([IPv6:2001:4810:1:0:c5c1:1e5f:de73:1e28]) by mx1.hotnic.net (8.13.6/8.13.4) with ESMTP id l9F4Yfq6004345 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:34:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <4712EDC1.4070203@kl.net> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 00:34:09 -0400 From: Kevin Loch User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0a1 (Windows/20060724) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops WG Subject: Re: 6to4 relay and Teredo relay load - Bittorrent. Now with numbers! References: <2D470CEF-DFA9-4ED5-BAB5-22F12D0ED400@daork.net> <4710914A.1030801@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <7E668EFD-1667-4AFC-A6D0-675C8BAB2D14@apple.com> <2317292C-F5EB-4738-8FE8-6062F94C420A@daork.net> <9FC3900F-89A3-40B1-A815-387C8DD9F49C@daork.net> In-Reply-To: <9FC3900F-89A3-40B1-A815-387C8DD9F49C@daork.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f Nathan Ward wrote: > On 14/10/2007, at 5:52 PM, Nathan Ward wrote: >> > > Exciting times. > > From the Azureus changelog for v3.0.2.0, August 20 2007: > - Core | IPv6 support - dht, version server, tracker and improved transport > > This corresponds with at least one 6to4 relay's increase in traffic. > (only up about 1kbit/s, but it's about 2-3 times what it was before. I also saw a slight increasae in traffic on 2007/08/20. It's more noticeable in the pps graph than the bits/s. This relay (AS33437/AS29748) currently averages about 1mbit/s. - Kevin From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 15 10:30:47 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhQxz-0005Qx-0M for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:30:47 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhQxt-0002SJ-Dk for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:30:46 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IhQsX-00021V-An for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:25:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [193.180.251.62] (helo=mailgw4.ericsson.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IhQsT-00020P-Vc for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:25:07 +0000 Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id E41742001B; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:25:02 +0200 (CEST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3e-b0034bb0000007e1-81-4713783e807a Received: from esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.121]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id C73582021E; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:25:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.176]) by esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:25:02 +0200 Received: from [147.214.30.247] ([147.214.30.247]) by esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:25:02 +0200 Message-ID: <4713783E.3080304@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:25:02 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> In-Reply-To: <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Oct 2007 14:25:02.0210 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C5EFE20:01C80F37] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 32b73d73e8047ed17386f9799119ce43 Iljitsch van Beijnum skrev: > On 12-okt-2007, at 13:52, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > > No, the state of things today for UDP is that no PMTUD happens. This is > suboptimal, but I'm not sure if there is a reasonable way to do better. There are cases one can do better at least if one thinks about it when defining the protocol that works on top of UDP. > >> But the only reliable way of determining MTU is to probe how big packets >> the network will deliver with DF bit set. And this obviously doesn't >> work unless you have a feedback and can ACK which packets that was >> delivered so that one can know if a particular size successfully was >> delivered. > > And, more importantly, you can adjust your packet sizes as required. > This isn't something all UDP applications can do. The IP layer can do it > for them by sending out fragments but although this is normal behavior > for IPv6 if there are "too big" messages, I have never seen IPv4 do this. Sure, there applications that have this issue. However, the big question for them in that case. Why are they using UDP as transport layer instead of something that handle that limitation better. > >>> No way. Application developers don't run networks, they tend to get this >>> stuff wrong and then you'll forever supporting applications with broken >>> network behavior that won't be upgraded for a decade. > >> Well, then we stop using UDP. > > :-) > > Maybe the notion of implementing protocols such as RTP in the > application isn't such a smart one after all. The reality is that RTP is normally implemented in the application code. It has both up and downsides. The downside is that there is a lot of implementations, not all necessary well done and correct. The advantage is that they at least has the potential to be well integrated with what happens at lower layer. But, in most cases a good library implementation of RTP/RTCP is needed. > >> Protocols built on top of UDP needs to >> take care of this as ICMP clearly does not work. > > ICMP isn't the issue. The issue is that any kind of PMTUD in > applications is just a very bad idea. Well, for UDP it is hard to know where the network protocol ends and the application starts. > >>> For IPv4, an obvious method would be to send packets with DF=0 and >>> hear from the other side how big the fragments are but that's not >>> possible with IPv4. > > (That last IPv4 should be an IPv6.) > >> Yes, that would probably work. The question is how we get a feedback >> channel that works. > > It has to be in-band because the out-of-band method (ICMP) is filtered > in a small but significant number of all cases. Unfortunately, UDP > doesn't support options and inserting IPv6 option headers or IPv4 > options will almost certainly trigger the same filtering that makes > using ICMP problematic. So the only choice would be adding something to > the next higher protocol on top of UDP. > Which means that the UDP protocol needs to be designed with PMTUD in mind. Probably to get this to work there needs to be a fragmentation and reassembly mechanism at the UDP layer for the application message themselves. As usually you very soon have reinvented the wheel, excuse me, I mean TCP or SCTP. Cheers Magnus Westerlund IETF Transport Area Director & TSVWG Chair ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Multimedia Technologies, Ericsson Research EAB/TVM/M ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ericsson AB | Phone +46 8 4048287 Torshamsgatan 23 | Fax +46 8 7575550 S-164 80 Stockholm, Sweden | mailto: magnus.westerlund@ericsson.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 15 11:10:09 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhRa5-00060Z-1R for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:10:09 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhRa3-0004mZ-BL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:10:09 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IhRYQ-00082j-64 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:08:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [212.166.209.29] (helo=esm2-mxsmtp.corp.vodafone.es) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IhRYN-000825-3F for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:08:24 +0000 Received: from esm2-mxsmtp04.vf-es.internal.vodafone.com ([195.232.228.172]) by esm2-mxsmtp.corp.vodafone.es with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 15 Oct 2007 17:08:26 +0200 Received: from mail pickup service by esm2-mxsmtp04.vf-es.internal.vodafone.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:59:15 +0200 Received: from mr1.vodafone.com ([195.232.246.201]) by esm2-mxsmtp03.vf-es.internal.vodafone.com over TLS secured channel with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:49:43 +0200 Received: from me2.vodafone.com (me2.vodafone.com [195.232.246.74]) by mr1.vodafone.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l9FEjfnF023513 for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:45:45 +0200 Received: from psg.com (psg.com [147.28.0.62]) by me2.vodafone.com (Switch-3.2.5/Switch-3.2.5) with ESMTP id l9FEjdQV019363 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:45:41 +0200 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IhQsX-00021V-An for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:25:09 +0000 Received: from [193.180.251.62] (helo=mailgw4.ericsson.se) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IhQsT-00020P-Vc for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 14:25:07 +0000 Received: from mailgw4.ericsson.se (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id E41742001B; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:25:02 +0200 (CEST) X-AuditID: c1b4fb3e-b0034bb0000007e1-81-4713783e807a Received: from esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se (unknown [153.88.254.121]) by mailgw4.ericsson.se (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id C73582021E; Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:25:02 +0200 (CEST) Received: from esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se ([153.88.254.176]) by esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:25:02 +0200 Received: from [147.214.30.247] ([147.214.30.247]) by esealmw128.eemea.ericsson.se with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:25:02 +0200 Message-ID: <4713783E.3080304@ericsson.com> Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 16:25:02 +0200 From: Magnus Westerlund User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: The IPv4 Internet MTU References: <470CBDFE.2080807@ericsson.com> <470D3B47.7050908@gmail.com> <3D6A011D-4356-4E1E-8299-67C9C48F5BC3@muada.com> <470F5FFB.8060208@ericsson.com> <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> In-Reply-To: <5910A7D6-F900-4C3F-9BCF-02612285760C@muada.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Oct 2007 14:25:02.0210 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C5EFE20:01C80F37] X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== X-eXpurgate-Category: 1/0 X-eXpurgate-ID: 149371::071015164541-42E16BB0-17D78638/0-0/0-0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 386e0819b1192672467565a524848168 Iljitsch van Beijnum skrev: > On 12-okt-2007, at 13:52, Magnus Westerlund wrote: > > No, the state of things today for UDP is that no PMTUD happens. This is > suboptimal, but I'm not sure if there is a reasonable way to do better. There are cases one can do better at least if one thinks about it when defining the protocol that works on top of UDP. > >> But the only reliable way of determining MTU is to probe how big packets >> the network will deliver with DF bit set. And this obviously doesn't >> work unless you have a feedback and can ACK which packets that was >> delivered so that one can know if a particular size successfully was >> delivered. > > And, more importantly, you can adjust your packet sizes as required. > This isn't something all UDP applications can do. The IP layer can do it > for them by sending out fragments but although this is normal behavior > for IPv6 if there are "too big" messages, I have never seen IPv4 do this. Sure, there applications that have this issue. However, the big question for them in that case. Why are they using UDP as transport layer instead of something that handle that limitation better. > >>> No way. Application developers don't run networks, they tend to get this >>> stuff wrong and then you'll forever supporting applications with broken >>> network behavior that won't be upgraded for a decade. > >> Well, then we stop using UDP. > > :-) > > Maybe the notion of implementing protocols such as RTP in the > application isn't such a smart one after all. The reality is that RTP is normally implemented in the application code. It has both up and downsides. The downside is that there is a lot of implementations, not all necessary well done and correct. The advantage is that they at least has the potential to be well integrated with what happens at lower layer. But, in most cases a good library implementation of RTP/RTCP is needed. > >> Protocols built on top of UDP needs to >> take care of this as ICMP clearly does not work. > > ICMP isn't the issue. The issue is that any kind of PMTUD in > applications is just a very bad idea. Well, for UDP it is hard to know where the network protocol ends and the application starts. > >>> For IPv4, an obvious method would be to send packets with DF=0 and >>> hear from the other side how big the fragments are but that's not >>> possible with IPv4. > > (That last IPv4 should be an IPv6.) > >> Yes, that would probably work. The question is how we get a feedback >> channel that works. > > It has to be in-band because the out-of-band method (ICMP) is filtered > in a small but significant number of all cases. Unfortunately, UDP > doesn't support options and inserting IPv6 option headers or IPv4 > options will almost certainly trigger the same filtering that makes > using ICMP problematic. So the only choice would be adding something to > the next higher protocol on top of UDP. > Which means that the UDP protocol needs to be designed with PMTUD in mind. Probably to get this to work there needs to be a fragmentation and reassembly mechanism at the UDP layer for the application message themselves. As usually you very soon have reinvented the wheel, excuse me, I mean TCP or SCTP. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C80FEB.4B75ED50-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 16 05:35:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ihiq6-0004VK-60 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 05:35:50 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ihipu-0003fi-QV for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 05:35:50 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ihijo-000Iyh-Hj for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:29:20 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [122.249.92.11] (helo=inc.inetcore.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ihijk-000Iy9-Oa for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 09:29:18 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by inc.inetcore.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41FD3D51D86; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:29:15 +0900 (JST) In-Reply-To: <200707242145.41580.julien.IETF@laposte.net> References: <5A54917B-4B25-47F5-91D8-2E9BD7B34D9E@cisco.com> <200707131138.14967.julien.IETF@laposte.net> <32BEC959-6F90-4511-AB85-4C0C843B96B0@inetcore.com> <200707242145.41580.julien.IETF@laposte.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.2) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org, draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req@tools.ietf.org, v6ops , Ron Bonica Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ruri Hiromi Subject: Re: SECDIR review of draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-req-02.txt Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 18:29:12 +0900 To: secdir@mit.edu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.2) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 3dc828214e948ff35b815af10e94a823 Hi, We have updated our document(from -2 to -3.txt) and I copied security consideration section in the below with reflection of the comments from SECDIR. How about this? We need more modification/clarification? Ant comments are appreciated! Thanks in advance, ---- 3. Security Considerations 3.1. List of threats introduced by new address-selection mechanism There are some security incidents when combining these requirements described in Section 2 into a protocol. In particular, here are six possible threats. 1. Hijacking or tapping from malicious nodes connecting from beyond unapproved network boundaries. 2. Malicious changing of policy data by nonapproved nodes. 3. Denial of Service Attack due to higher traffic volume, and blocked communication, for example, at both node and network caused by sending unsafe and tampered data from unbidden controller. 4. Attempt to stop service on node/computer resources caused by unnecessary communication between the controller and nodes. 5. Intrusion into security boundary caused by malicious use of multiprefix environment. 6. Leakage of network policy information from central controller. 3.2. List of recommendations in which security mechanism should be applied All the methods listed below should be well-considered for protecting against security threats. There is no necessity to comply with all items at same time, if one or more spec(s) could apply to other security requirements. Secure network operation will also be considered, and describing network operation for network security will be better. Referring to and using existing technologies is also preferable. 1. Consideration of the necessity to use digitally signed or cryptographic messages. 2. Consideration of the necessity to maintain confidentiality of source of policy data. 3. Consideration of the necessity of authentication and validation of both entity and message integrity. 4. Consideration of the necessity of having a mechanism for the avoidance of data conflicts if the policy data comes from multiple controllers. 5. Consideration of the necessity of an appropriate filtering method at domain boundaries. 6. Consideration of the necessity of data independency at every node or every interface for avoidance of mixing multiple policy data. 7. Consideration of the necessity of having a mechanism for controlling policy and all related network information on the server if the server stores policy and all related neetowrk information on the outside of its network domain. 8. Consideration of the necessity to log and collect related system data. ---- Regards, On 2007/07/25, at 4:45, Julien Laganier wrote: > Hi Ruri, > > On Monday 23 July 2007, Ruri Hiromi wrote: >> Hello, >> >> SECDIR and Shunsuke Suzuki pointed out that we did >> not sufficiently describe security influence this >> requirement might be brought. >> >> For this issue, I would like to put these words in >> the section 3 (security consideration part). Please >> check this, all of you. Thanks for advance. > > It's good to see that you want to expand the sec-cons > section. > > Overall, I think the text is too unclear, or is mixing > different aspects together that will make it hard to > make sure a specific protocol satisfies the security > requirements put forth below. I think the sec-cons > section should have two parts: 1) a list of threats > introduced by new address selection mechanisms (what > an attacker could do), and 2) a list of recommendation > on which security mechanisms (e.g. entity > authentication, message authentication, > confidentiality protection) should be applied to > counter these attacks. > > Detailed comments are inlined in your text below: > >> -------------------- >> There are some security incidents when combining >> these requirements described in Section 2 into a >> protocol. Particulars are listed in the below. > > I think the above text should clarify what is listed > below. I am confused as to what the list of items > below is. It seems it is mixing threats with > solution/requirements to block the corresponding > attacks. These should be listed separately, IMHO. > >> a. keep data confident and having data protected >> for avoidance of Denial Service Attack at node or >> network caused by unsafe and tampered data. > > I actually think that confidentiality and integrity > protection should be treated separately since there > are cases in which the data is not confidential and > thus it makes no sense to protect confidentiality. > > In that particular case it would be good to spell out > why an address selection protocol exchanges would need > to be confidentiality protected since it is not > obvious (at least to me). I have the impression that, > depending on the protocol and the threat model it > might or might not be needed. > > For example, if the protocol is just used to broadcast > the same address selection directives/policies from a > central server to all nodes of the domain, I am not > sure there need to be confidentiality protection. > > On the other hand, if the protocol is used to let a > node of the domain query a server about best address > selection outcome to reach a particular destination, > then confidentiality protection could be used to > protects from some attacks, e.g. where an attacker > could collect a list of destinations with which the > node communicates with. > > Then, w.r.t. the mentioned "Denial Service Attack", it > should be clarified what the attack actually is, e.g. > what's the asset being attacked, how is it being > attacked, etc. > >> b. detect a certified information resource(s) and >> keep communication with confidential information >> resource(s). This is for avoidance of hijacking or >> tapping from unsafe node. > > When you mean detect, do you mean discovery? If you > mean discovery, then the requirements on a secure > discovery mechanisms should be spelled out -- i.e. is > it simply avoiding a rogue resource to be discovered, > and does it also include protection against an > attacker denying discovery of that resource? > > I also have the same concerns than for item a) above, > i.e. certification and confidentiality protection > should be decoupled. > > Also as above, it should be clarified how the attack > occurs, i.e. how an address selection protocol could > lead to hijacking or tapping. > >> c. keep network availability at a estimated level. >> This is for avoidance of Denial of Service Attack >> for network resources. > > Ditto (What's the attack, what's the asset, etc.) > >> d. keep service availability >> in a specific node at an estimated level. This is >> for Avoidance of Denial of Service Attack for node/ >> computer resources. > > Ditto. > >> e. keep an estimated administrative, controlled >> level in the whole network. This is for avoidance of >> intrusion of security boundary caused by malicious >> use of multiprefix environment. This is also for >> avoidance of leakage of some information from >> central controller. > > I don't understand what the first sentence means. > Regarding what's being avoided, same comment as > before, how would the attack be realized, what are the > assets, etc. > >> All the way listed below should be well-considered >> for the protection from security threats. There is >> no necessity to comply with all items at same time, >> and it will be accepted if one or more spec will >> come to apply the other spec. > > What does the last sentence mean? Do you mean that it > is possible to have multiple specifications where one > specification defines the main address selection > protocol, and others specifications defines mechanisms > used to protect the main protocol against different > threats? > >> The network operational spec will be considered and >> described as what and how it works for the network >> security. > > This I'm not sure I understand either... > >> It is also preferable to refer and use existing >> technologies. > > Right. > >> A. consideration of use of necessity >> for digitally-signed or cryptographic message > > In the above, and what follows (i.e. items A-H) > I'm assuming that "consideration of use of necessity > for" means "considerations on the necessity to use". > Is that right? If yes that should be replaced. > > Also, do you mean Message Authentication Code (MAC) > instead of "cryptographic message" ? > >> B. consideration of use of necessity for confidence >> of data source > > s/confidence/confidentiality > > Also here do you mean confidentiality protection of the > data exchanged? Or of the source? If the latter what > does that mean? You mean the source address? > >> C. consideration of use of necessity for >> authentication > > Are you referring to entity authentication (a.k.a > entity identification) or message authentication > (a.k.a message integrity protection) ? > >> D. consideration of use of necessity for validation >> mechanism for both of nodes and messages > > What kind of validation mechanism are referring to? Is > that message integrity protection? > >> E. consideration of use of necessity for avoidance >> mechanism of data conflict > > I do not understand that. Can you clarify? > >> F. consideration of use of necessity for >> appropriate filtering method at domain boundaries > > Ok. > >> G. consideration of use of necessity for data >> independence method at node or an interface. > > I do not understand that. Can you clarify? > >> H. consideration of use of necessity for >> information control mechanism at server if a node >> gets information from outside of its network domain. > > Here I assume you mean access control to the service > providing address selection, is that right? > >> Here is a list for estimation of the impact to >> security incidents that the requirements in this >> document may interfere. > > I don't really understand what is being listed. I am > not going to comments on what follows. I recommend > rewriting the text as suggested in my overall comment > with 1) list of threats and 2) countermeasures to the > threats. > > Hope that helps. Best, > > --julien > >> 2-1: Effectiveness will have no impact to security >> issues >> >> 2-2: Timing will have no impact to security issues >> >> 2-3: Dynamic update has a possibility if it is >> maliciously used to lead high load average for >> network and machine resources. This may become a >> Denial of Service attack. Safe protocol should be >> used. >> >> 2-4: Node-Specific behavior has a possibility to >> take attacks to a specific node. Authorization and >> validation will protect this. >> >> 2-5: Application specific behavior will have no >> impact to security issues >> >> 2-6: Multiple interfaces has a possibility to take >> denial of service to machine resources. It also has >> a possibility of becoming a steppingstone beyond >> security boundary. It is necessary to have a >> filtering mechanism at domain boundary and >> independence between interfaces. It is desirable to >> have some protection by a protocol or operation. >> >> 2-7: Central control mechanism has a possibility to >> take session hijack attacks if the central >> controller is unsafe and gives invalid information >> to nodes. Information should be managed. Protocol >> should have a mechanism for validation, confidence, >> authentication, authorization. >> >> 2-8: Next-hop selection has a possibility to take >> denial of service due to a conflict between routing >> system and policy table. If a routing system has own >> security mechanism, it is necessary to cooperate >> with it, not interfere the mechanism. >> -------------------- >> >> On 2007/07/13, at 18:38, Julien Laganier wrote: >>> I have reviewed this document as part of the >>> security directorate's ongoing effort to review >>> all IETF documents being processed by the IESG. >>> These comments were written primarily for the >>> benefit of the security area directors. Document >>> editors and WG chairs should treat these comments >>> just like any other last call comments. >>> >>> Background: In multi-prefix environments it is >>> possible for an IPv6 node to have multiple IPv6 >>> addresses available. There is thus a need to >>> select appropriate source and destination >>> addresses when initiating communication. RFC3484 >>> defines default address selection for IPv6. >>> Another v6ops draft >>> [I-D.ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps] points to some >>> situations in which RFC3484 leads to problems, >>> hence the desire to introduce new selection >>> mechanisms overcoming those. This document >>> discusses requirements for such mechanisms. >>> >>> Security Review: While I think this is useful >>> work, I am concerned that security wasn't made a >>> requirement in itself and is instead just touched >>> upon in the security considerations section. I >>> also think that the security considerations >>> section is not appropriate: it doesn't do a good >>> job of analyzing threats that might be introduced >>> by address selection mechanisms. It is >>> insufficient to state that "incorrect address >>> selection can lead to serious security problems, >>> such as session hijack", this is too vague. >>> Security threats should be listed exhaustively. As >>> I already said, I believe that it should be made a >>> requirement in itself that these threats are >>> appropriately countered. Since it also seems that >>> address selection mechanisms can be realized via >>> protocols, it might also be good to go into what >>> are the requirements on protection of these >>> protocols (e.g. network filtering at the domain >>> boundary, message authentication, etc.). >>> >>> Non-security nit: In section 2.5., "address >>> selection API" could reference a recently approved >>> individual submission >>> [I-D.chakrabarti-ipv6-addrselect-api]. >>> >>> Hope that helps. Best regards, >>> >>> --julien >> >> ------------------------------- >> Ruri Hiromi >> hiromi@inetcore.com > > > ------------------------------- Ruri Hiromi hiromi@inetcore.com From Ennamoratomjhva@ceosearchglobal.com Tue Oct 16 13:39:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhqNj-000101-NF for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:39:03 -0400 Received: from [89.156.108.223] (helo=089156108223.chello.fr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhqNd-0005SJ-C6 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 13:38:58 -0400 Received: by 10.233.55.85 with SMTP id vAOZpYtwXMUNM; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:40:10 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.189.226 with SMTP id UFeZiDThIMUFeq.8845070411238; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:40:08 +0200 (GMT) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 19:40:05 +0200 From: "french Ennamorato" Reply-To: "french Ennamorato" Message-ID: <022596685291.615164839096@ceosearchglobal.com> To: Subject: 1tugging MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original X-Spam-Score: 4.0 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea hey baby v6ops-archive keep her entertained and swinging off your manhood http://gosereln.com/ french Ennamorato From Ji-Fadeley@tractorpartsinc.com Tue Oct 16 15:02:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ihrgc-0001Yw-BZ for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:02:38 -0400 Received: from [85.99.8.166] (helo=dsl.dynamic85998166.ttnet.net.tr) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhrgR-0000gh-Pm for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:02:31 -0400 Received: from tr ([138.181.62.150] helo=tr) by dsl.dynamic85998166.ttnet.net.tr ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1KkFJv-000GMM-GI for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:03:02 +0300 Message-ID: <000801c81282$96621d40$a6086355@tr> From: "Ji Fadeley" To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: tearegbi Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 22:02:25 +0300 Message-ID: <000801c81282$96621d40$a6086355@tr> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-9" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Hello readers v6ops-archive be a baller and take home all the hoes http://www.figogoal.com/ Ji Fadeley From khamis996@21v.ru Tue Oct 16 15:50:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhsQv-0002NO-Mg for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:50:29 -0400 Received: from [66.158.69.87] (helo=[66.158.69.87]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IhsQu-0002NM-Hd for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 15:50:29 -0400 Received: from GE-206-01 by 21v.ru with ASMTP id A35DAB57 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:57:55 -0500 Received: from GE-206-01 ([195.196.65.83]) by 21v.ru with ESMTP id AF9509298B42 for ; Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:57:55 -0500 Message-ID: <000401c8102e$c723eea0$57459e42@GE20601> From: "khamis Krupen" To: Subject: uerucorp Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 14:57:27 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0009_01C81004.DE4DE6A0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 4.5 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C81004.DE4DE6A0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hello stranger v6ops-archive be a baller and take home all the hoes http://www.gopoooal.com/ khamis Krupen ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C81004.DE4DE6A0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C81072.E9BDB7E0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 17 07:27:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ii741-00032L-U6 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:27:49 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ii73r-0000Es-Nw for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:27:45 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ii6wU-000HPB-CB for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:20:02 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ii6wR-000HOD-Nd for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 11:20:01 +0000 Received: from [163.117.140.35] ([163.117.140.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9HBGtpi054348 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:16:58 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: IPv6 Operations From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Enhanced SIIT Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:19:48 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 After a half serious post to the IETF list I decided to write a quick draft about the following: Abstract This document describes an extension to the mechanism outlined in RFC 2765 that allows IPv4 hosts to communicate with IPv6 hosts through a protocol translation device with full IPv6 compatibility. For this purpose, a new header is inserted between the IP header and the payload protocol such as TCP and UDP. The new header contains the bits truncated from the IPv6 address when the IPv6 address is translated into an IPv4 address in the 240.0.0.0/4 (class E) range. http://www.muada.com/drafts/draft-van-beijnum-v6ops-esiit-00.txt (I have no patience with the IETF tools right now, will retry that later.) The idea is that hosts with IPv4 connectivity get to talk to IPv6 hosts without anything NAT-like getting in the way. However, it does require some changes on the IPv4 side, but these can be deployed incrementally. The assumption is that these changes would be easier to deploy than a full IPv6 transition. I would really like some feedback on whether this is something useful that deserves more attention or not. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 17 08:54:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ii8PV-0008S0-1a for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:54:05 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ii8PT-0003OS-CF for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:54:04 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ii8N1-0000az-QK for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:51:31 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [66.210.104.252] (helo=FreeDaemonHosting.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ii8Mx-0000aP-4e for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:51:30 +0000 Received: from pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com (localhost.theshop.net [IPv6:::1]) by FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l9HCp38Y025340; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:51:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from todd@localhost) by pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id l9HCp2QM003368; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:51:02 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 07:51:02 -0500 From: "Todd T. Fries" To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT Message-ID: <20071017125101.GA16187@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> X-Operating-System: OpenBSD pf.FreeDaemonHosting.com 4.2 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddfries@gmail.com X-IM: toddfries:AIM 115268457:ICQ todd@fries.net:MSN X-Jabber: toddfries@gmail.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.12-2006-07-14 X-FDH-MailScanner-Information: http://FreeDaemonHosting.com/MailScanner.html X-FDH-MailScanner: clean X-FDH-MailScanner-From: todd@pf.freedaemonhosting.com Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 My personal opinion is that if you require updating IPv4 hosts why not just update them to IPv6 stack? The duct tape and band-aids on IPv4 this draft calls forth is sick at best in my opinion. FWIW. -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net _____________________________________________ | \ 1.636.410.0632 (voice) | Free Daemon Consulting, LLC \ 1.405.227.9094 (voice) | http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com \ 1.866.792.3418 (FAX) | "..in support of free software solutions." \ 1.700.227.9094 (IAXTEL) | \ 250797 (FWD) \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt Penned by Iljitsch van Beijnum on 20071017 13:19.48, we have: | After a half serious post to the IETF list I decided to write a quick | draft about the following: | | Abstract | | This document describes an extension to the mechanism outlined in RFC | 2765 that allows IPv4 hosts to communicate with IPv6 hosts through a | protocol translation device with full IPv6 compatibility. | | For this purpose, a new header is inserted between the IP header and | the payload protocol such as TCP and UDP. The new header contains the | bits truncated from the IPv6 address when the IPv6 address is | translated into an IPv4 address in the 240.0.0.0/4 (class E) range. | | http://www.muada.com/drafts/draft-van-beijnum-v6ops-esiit-00.txt | | (I have no patience with the IETF tools right now, will retry that | later.) | | The idea is that hosts with IPv4 connectivity get to talk to IPv6 | hosts without anything NAT-like getting in the way. However, it does | require some changes on the IPv4 side, but these can be deployed | incrementally. The assumption is that these changes would be easier | to deploy than a full IPv6 transition. | | I would really like some feedback on whether this is something useful | that deserves more attention or not. 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( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b21sm11053877rvf.2007.10.17.13.49.07 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 17 Oct 2007 13:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:49:06 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum CC: IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> In-Reply-To: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d On 2007-10-18 00:19, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > After a half serious post to the IETF list I decided to write a quick > draft about the following: > > Abstract > > This document describes an extension to the mechanism outlined in RFC > 2765 that allows IPv4 hosts to communicate with IPv6 hosts through a > protocol translation device with full IPv6 compatibility. On 2007-10-14 06:28, Jari Arkko wrote: > Thanks for this, Olaf. Indeed, we are considering follow-up work, > and understanding the scenarios & possible need for producing > a revised version of NAT-PT is on the Vancouver agenda (currently > planned to be a discussion in V6OPS, with protocol work to fall > out to an INT area WG). In my opinion we have to be very systematic about this. The only way that we can avoid the intrinsic problems of stateless translation seems to be to have awareness at the IPv6 end that translation is happening. (The underlying problem is how to reach legacy IPv4 hosts, who by definition can have no such awareness). That seems to mean getting rid of the "less" in "Stateless IP/ICMP Translation", so I think we need to go back to basics. I don't have any specific proposals in mind, but I'm pretty sure that signalling between the translator and the IPv6 host will be needed. Brian From c-taka@camplouisa.com Wed Oct 17 17:04:13 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiG3p-0001Cp-Ej for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:04:13 -0400 Received: from [201.80.225.118] (helo=c950e176.bhz.virtua.com.br) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiG3l-00046D-MU for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:04:11 -0400 Received: from [201.80.225.118] by mx5.biz.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:09:40 -0300 Message-ID: <01c810e8$e2bd4110$76e150c9@c-taka> From: "Alphonso Giles" To: Subject: wide erectile organ for Duane Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:09:40 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-2" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1478 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 X-Spam-Score: 1.3 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 01485d64dfa90b45a74269b3ca9d5574 whacking rod for Vickie http://eprodinc.com From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 17 17:28:45 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiGRZ-0005lA-O2 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:28:45 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiGRY-0004jM-Hw for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:28:45 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiGQ8-000LZO-5z for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:27:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [202.12.29.58] (helo=mint.apnic.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiGQ5-000LZ4-J9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:27:14 +0000 Received: from [192.35.165.93] (gihm3.dhcp.nanog.merit.net [192.35.165.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mint.apnic.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD4E9D5F37; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:27:11 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <47167EB6.3080708@apnic.net> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:29:26 +1000 From: Geoff Huston User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> In-Reply-To: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -3.0 (---) X-Scan-Signature: 4adaf050708fb13be3316a9eee889caa This is something potentially useful that I think deserves further review - simply because the approach appears to provide the ability to use a stateless transform of the protocol header in the network. It its current formulation it requires host protocol stack surgery, but it you look past the precise details and think about the essential differences between NATs with explicit bindings and held state and algorithmic transforms that do no require kept state then there is something here that could be a useful starting point. So I'm of the view that it merits a little further attention. Geoff Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > After a half serious post to the IETF list I decided to write a quick > draft about the following: > > Abstract > > This document describes an extension to the mechanism outlined in RFC > 2765 that allows IPv4 hosts to communicate with IPv6 hosts through a > protocol translation device with full IPv6 compatibility. > > For this purpose, a new header is inserted between the IP header and > the payload protocol such as TCP and UDP. The new header contains the > bits truncated from the IPv6 address when the IPv6 address is > translated into an IPv4 address in the 240.0.0.0/4 (class E) range. > > http://www.muada.com/drafts/draft-van-beijnum-v6ops-esiit-00.txt > > (I have no patience with the IETF tools right now, will retry that later.) > > The idea is that hosts with IPv4 connectivity get to talk to IPv6 hosts > without anything NAT-like getting in the way. However, it does require > some changes on the IPv4 side, but these can be deployed incrementally. > The assumption is that these changes would be easier to deploy than a > full IPv6 transition. > > I would really like some feedback on whether this is something useful > that deserves more attention or not. > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 17 17:36:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiGYf-0006OH-KM for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:36:05 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiGYe-0004wb-EO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:36:05 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiGY2-000Mkf-OR for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:35:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [208.17.35.58] (helo=paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiGY0-000MjX-6w for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:35:25 +0000 Received: from ([10.195.246.152]) by paoakoavas09.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-NTF18.47855444; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:35:10 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXCMB05.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.116]) by NJMDCEXCRLY01.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 17 Oct 2007 17:35:10 -0400 Received: from 10.25.252.115 ([10.25.252.115]) by PACDCEXCMB05.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.116]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:35:10 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:35:08 -0600 Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT From: Alain Durand To: Brian E Carpenter , Iljitsch van Beijnum CC: IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Enhanced SIIT Thread-Index: AcgRA2C7M2MfQQiPTUq1kUnbwSf/eAAAjXqj In-Reply-To: <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 17 Oct 2007 21:35:10.0750 (UTC) FILETIME=[98492BE0:01C81105] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 On 10/17/07 2:49 PM, "Brian E Carpenter" wrote: > > In my opinion we have to be very systematic about this. The only way > that we can avoid the intrinsic problems of stateless translation > seems to be to have awareness at the IPv6 end that translation is > happening. (The underlying problem is how to reach legacy IPv4 > hosts, who by definition can have no such awareness). That seems to > mean getting rid of the "less" in "Stateless IP/ICMP Translation", > so I think we need to go back to basics. I don't have any specific > proposals in mind, but I'm pretty sure that signalling between > the translator and the IPv6 host will be needed. We have been studying network-triggered translation vs end-device-triggered translation. One thing that came out of that study is what happen when the translator in the middle fails. If you have a model where mappings are triggered by the end-devices, you are going to create a storm of mapping requests to the fall-back translator. - Alain. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 17 18:09:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiH4p-0000wA-V0 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:09:20 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiH4p-0005Wp-IO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 18:09:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiH2b-0001sJ-0f for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:07:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [209.85.146.179] (helo=wa-out-1112.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiH2V-0001rc-IA for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 22:06:59 +0000 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id v27so2941810wah for ; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 15:06:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WTENMniBH0xJPLkMnMLJwpwmMTqZfGukw3CWrqF+EtM=; b=Q4l9AjCQ/9qjPF/9RKpibqaMJweCYs8c09g/ataZxFLUkPAazW/U7OP9vd6deeBV1D1HePyIdgKnUOpfB50xiGi3ZyehTmqwaI3+vDKHgkZnpH9S7Xn5Eh4LiJ6VlpaudA0CU8WsvL3g2An6POlYcRykhOgA926jLCB3u6lhY58= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=YRS4NwJ615ISVLo+dbLsU0SJU4HcJgPRRjTMPEqZdkFlurn5D3F+jJzjyWISrY8tZ/KFTF0S40XlTCWzJw1U5DbCtoJdmz7WRiTooxikKmBAPn57xAEYmim+G1icBYZBQXzTGhEywfcoKDp2BXehwA8zwPECHuhc4l610qiZGp8= Received: by 10.115.90.1 with SMTP id s1mr3231663wal.1192658207074; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:56:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l28sm50546waf.2007.10.17.14.56.44 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Wed, 17 Oct 2007 14:56:45 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47168518.9030407@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:56:40 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Alain Durand CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 2409bba43e9c8d580670fda8b695204a On 2007-10-18 10:35, Alain Durand wrote: > > > On 10/17/07 2:49 PM, "Brian E Carpenter" > wrote: >> In my opinion we have to be very systematic about this. The only way >> that we can avoid the intrinsic problems of stateless translation >> seems to be to have awareness at the IPv6 end that translation is >> happening. (The underlying problem is how to reach legacy IPv4 >> hosts, who by definition can have no such awareness). That seems to >> mean getting rid of the "less" in "Stateless IP/ICMP Translation", >> so I think we need to go back to basics. I don't have any specific >> proposals in mind, but I'm pretty sure that signalling between >> the translator and the IPv6 host will be needed. > > We have been studying network-triggered translation vs end-device-triggered > translation. One thing that came out of that study is what happen when the > translator in the middle fails. If you have a model where mappings are > triggered by the end-devices, you are going to create a storm of mapping > requests to the fall-back translator. Yes, that seems correct. I don't see any reason why translation should be initiated by the IPv6 host, but on the other hand, do we want the translator to be a single point of failure? Brian From JohnYoungsoo@endtrauma.de Wed Oct 17 21:55:29 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiKbh-00008j-NC for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:55:29 -0400 Received: from adsl-ull-246-13.50-151.net24.it ([151.50.13.246] helo=adsl-ull-238-18.50-151.net24.it) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiKbb-0004KF-7Q for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:55:29 -0400 Received: from casa-ad2c496eff ([157.111.152.162] helo=casa-ad2c496eff) by adsl-ull-238-18.50-151.net24.it ( sendmail 8.13.3/8.13.1) with esmtpa id 1JZDtb-000TMX-rt for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:55:44 +0200 Message-ID: <03538F9E.2773C2BC@endtrauma.de> Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:55:33 +0200 From: "JohnYoungsoo sterley" User-Agent: Thunderbird 1.5.0.10 (Windows/20070221) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: cijuv Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 1.6 (+) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea Howdy v6ops-archive dont get held back because of your little willy anymore! http://www.hanboton.com/ JohnYoungsoo sterley From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 17 23:41:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiMGA-0004Tm-DL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:41:22 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiMG2-0006q5-C6 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:41:22 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiMB5-0000HS-1B for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:36:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [144.140.93.156] (helo=omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiMB2-0000Gn-Bp for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:36:05 +0000 Received: from oaamta06sl.mx.bigpond.com ([124.190.106.219]) by omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20071018033555.VJBL21837.omta04sl.mx.bigpond.com@oaamta06sl.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:35:55 +0000 Received: from PC20005 ([124.190.106.219]) by oaamta06sl.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20071018033555.PJON8739.oaamta06sl.mx.bigpond.com@PC20005>; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 03:35:55 +0000 From: "Hesham Soliman" To: "'Alain Durand'" , "'Brian E Carpenter'" , "'Iljitsch van Beijnum'" Cc: "'IPv6 Operations'" , "'Jari Arkko'" Subject: RE: Enhanced SIIT Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:35:44 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Thread-Index: AcgRA2C7M2MfQQiPTUq1kUnbwSf/eAAAjXqjAAxcCcA= Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 769a46790fb42fbb0b0cc700c82f7081 > > > > In my opinion we have to be very systematic about this. > The only way > > that we can avoid the intrinsic problems of stateless translation > > seems to be to have awareness at the IPv6 end that translation is > > happening. (The underlying problem is how to reach legacy IPv4 > > hosts, who by definition can have no such awareness). That seems to > > mean getting rid of the "less" in "Stateless IP/ICMP Translation", > > so I think we need to go back to basics. I don't have any specific > > proposals in mind, but I'm pretty sure that signalling between > > the translator and the IPv6 host will be needed. > > We have been studying network-triggered translation vs > end-device-triggered > translation. One thing that came out of that study is what > happen when the > translator in the middle fails. If you have a model where > mappings are > triggered by the end-devices, you are going to create a > storm of mapping > requests to the fall-back translator. => I don't know if anyone remembers this draft by Eirk and I some 7 years ago: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ngtrans-siit-dstm-01 It did maintain the statelessness of the translator. The concern at the time was that allocating addresses based on external triggers (DNS lookup from some node on the Internet) was a serious DoS attack. But even if you remove that feature/bug, the rest of the draft still applies today, given a mechanism of allocating an IPv4 address to the IPv6 host. At the time we chose DSTM, but any mechanism would work. I think it can be a good reference if the WG still wants to work with translators. Hesham > > - Alain. > > > From michael@jendryschik.de Wed Oct 17 23:50:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiMPS-0006nj-GE for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:50:58 -0400 Received: from auh-as31119.alshamil.net.ae ([217.164.72.131]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiMKr-0006ud-33 for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Wed, 17 Oct 2007 23:50:56 -0400 Received: from [217.164.72.131] by mxlb.ispgateway.de; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:02:46 +0400 Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:02:46 +0400 From: "Roscoe Gates" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v3.5.25) Home Reply-To: michael@jendryschik.de X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <107567292.13785747991574@jendryschik.de> To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Re: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----------0125B679D379D3EC" X-Spam-Score: 3.7 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: dd887a8966a4c4c217a52303814d0b5f ------------0125B679D379D3EC Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------F84010109DA3E5B" ------------F84010109DA3E5B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit at that altitude; but it would not if it were about your ears. Then it and were out for two days, when they were back in the front trenches against his kind of campaign. Life in the trenches in summer was not ------------F84010109DA3E5B Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
     

    at that altitude; but it would not if it were about your ears. Then it
    and were out for two days, when they were back in the front trenches
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YNWwJGLuojzuZS7e5NUEoRqKJAGmRulhI07IiS7ioDX+JmjiyLOcSD5uReqgpUFwJECKpMXIImy+ hGBK4WdiJUv2AxiupEi+YdbwZG42py7SJnVOARjsIKaY5U26hE+KjEgWoFCUI3VemgIaTtxl1Hxa BMYIwyUoDdHoDSJChSh6IQZ2oChqYhvixih0oEQSKMUQja24Z5AchPE5YMV4oShOZyeeIEA66Hly YoYKYRvKxBvmn3MUB6XEoUyMAj444IW2IUbehChOo0JCKDd24Mm5aEQKBQ+6aBxe36Non4a2YMWo YE6k/8IatOGJlgpknmiIFqlPWIyDJqOCRowafuB9ZlHcRV5I/CFEzF72lEnHaQ4lIkj+xZ/oIUjq UeKi7KZEDIjqxV84yl9Bemhl/sM0nB2cTkdYrqkS4YT+KRFynKmfjqJRpJ7lpSk7mukoxmlqlKma pk6hFuqiGqps5V+cWqLpid5vxQRkGEigHmqmhqOZSupWqmmY+hqjfUozYNn5NIJCcClDJNA/eOlC +J24CKJ6WGow4SB4MofNHMKXLAqN2lAb8uruGatD4F6XBKkCeoLVPdk/LAKsEgRqPoQlWQ6uQsSp PkhTUt6RjAqbNoQdeg8VWOfu0ZayXl63vtbKiUS7Rv+ENljalToOPsjr1pHJNqzjvFqE8BFILLTc vmbOmZxJIpTba60rmaQCZOXPzI0rgcDDk2QdM+CWIa7H5g2EzrGL5amHvtZXvwasQjgsQtzffLIq RIzfQGBcJMVExZYdQ0jZQWRsutjrF3lUuohsX7wrgDwe8TCEljpEtYrLGbzd/iBlQ9hsQdxaJE2r u/JFQ9lbvJGZvDxtYbxA0VmECy0Ez05b7mwtojXExFKZJK3qAaXqQ9EsmRST+YQT/P1DxzoEycpS x0qfSCiOQRTcQhht5sCO+WnOf0Qtbt3UpyAsQ2gDH45YIVwsy5BmRagCcmyrYrBXQ3Tez1YEAx5W 5UJChH5QT0G4o0UALsi2rXrY6swFHpi8X0IopUjgB+QWhuQyRB6G7WeQLrVyqedO0t9kA335LZmk a7hIpb3RbujyRUAAADs= ------------0125B679D379D3EC-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 04:10:08 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiQSG-0002a8-Ri for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 04:10:08 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiQSF-0006Tb-KL for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 04:10:08 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiQNU-000Dpy-O5 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:05:12 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiQNO-000DoT-Ug for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:05:08 +0000 Received: from [163.117.140.35] ([163.117.140.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9I821pR075432 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:02:02 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:04:54 +0200 To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 On 17-okt-2007, at 22:49, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > In my opinion we have to be very systematic about this. The only way > that we can avoid the intrinsic problems of stateless translation > seems to be to have awareness at the IPv6 end that translation is > happening. Note that my draft goes in the opposite direction and imposes new requirements on the IPv4 side rather than the IPv6 side. I do agree that having an unmodified IPv4 host talk to an unmodified IPv6 host is problematic if you want to avoid NAT. Being able to talk to unmodified IPv4 hosts is attractive in the short term because there are so many of them. But being able to keep IPv6 clean is attractive in the long term. The effort to update either would be approximately the same, in my opinion, because all current OSes support both IP versions. The big difference would be in the appliances such as firewalls and load balancers. The way I see it, the large value isn't in making a random IPv6 host talk to a random IPv4 host. Rather, it's allowing a random IPv6 host to talk to the infrastructures of large content networks that exist in IPv4 which seem to be having a hard time moving to IPv6. As far as having the IPv6 host know about the translation: a very simple way to do this is with proxies. Today, applications need to know about proxies but I don't think it would be too hard to make the OS support this. I.e., when an IPv6-only host wants to set up a TCP session towards an IPv4-only host, the stack intercepts the request, connects to a proxy and asks the proxy to set up a session towards the IPv4 address in question. When the connection is there, the TCP session is given to the application. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0003_01C8118E.2924E090-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 07:55:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiTyk-0003HZ-Er for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:55:54 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiTyj-0005mX-5o for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:55:54 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiTt5-0000ye-Aq for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:50:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, SPOOF_COM2OTH autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [66.210.104.252] (helo=FreeDaemonHosting.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiTt2-0000x8-CR for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:50:01 +0000 Received: from blue.fries.net (blue.hse.fries.net [IPv6:2001:240:58a::1c]) by FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l9IBnTUv025342; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:49:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blue.fries.net (localhost.fries.net [IPv6:::1]) by blue.fries.net (8.14.1/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l9IBnJ5w025068; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:49:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from todd@localhost) by blue.fries.net (8.14.1/8.13.6/Submit) id l9IBnGOt023353; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:49:16 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 06:49:16 -0500 From: "Todd T. Fries" To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Cc: Brian E Carpenter , IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT Message-ID: <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> X-Operating-System: OpenBSD blue.fries.net 4.2 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddfries@gmail.com X-IM: toddfries:AIM 115268457:ICQ todd@fries.net:MSN X-Jabber: toddfries@gmail.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.12-2006-07-14 X-FDH-MailScanner-Information: http://FreeDaemonHosting.com/MailScanner.html X-FDH-MailScanner: clean X-FDH-MailScanner-From: todd@fries.net Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b280b4db656c3ca28dd62e5e0b03daa8 'not too big a deal to modify a v4 host' uh. what corner of academia are you smoking? The bar to change IPv4 hosts to talk IPv6 is exactly the same as updating the IPv4 protocol to talk some fancy backwards objectionable protocol ``enhancement'' that hides IPv6 under the hood. If you're a v4 host wanting to talk to v6 land, visit: http://freedaemonconsulting.com.ipv4.sixxs.org/ If you're a v6 host wanting to talk to v4 land, visit: http://google.com.ipv6.sixxs.org/ Proxies are indeed a valid transition mechanism, they are in place and working, today. What you propose adds more bandaids to IPv4 and further muddies and confuses the waters. Do you not realize why IPv4 mapped addresses were a bad idea? http://ipv6samurais.com/ipv6samurais/openbsd-audit/draft-cmetz-v6ops-v4mapped-api-harmful-01.txt http://ipv6samurais.com/ipv6samurais/openbsd-audit/draft-itojun-v6ops-v4mapped-harmful-02.txt I beg you to consider that your proposal is no different in that regard with regards to security, but in addition, it is worse, as it changes the IPv4 stack itself. Ugh. -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net _____________________________________________ | \ 1.636.410.0632 (voice) | Free Daemon Consulting \ 1.405.227.9094 (voice) | http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com \ 1.866.792.3418 (FAX) | "..in support of free software solutions." \ 250797 (FWD) | \ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt Penned by Iljitsch van Beijnum on 20071018 10:04.54, we have: | On 17-okt-2007, at 22:49, Brian E Carpenter wrote: | | >In my opinion we have to be very systematic about this. The only way | >that we can avoid the intrinsic problems of stateless translation | >seems to be to have awareness at the IPv6 end that translation is | >happening. | | Note that my draft goes in the opposite direction and imposes new | requirements on the IPv4 side rather than the IPv6 side. I do agree | that having an unmodified IPv4 host talk to an unmodified IPv6 host | is problematic if you want to avoid NAT. | | Being able to talk to unmodified IPv4 hosts is attractive in the | short term because there are so many of them. But being able to keep | IPv6 clean is attractive in the long term. | | The effort to update either would be approximately the same, in my | opinion, because all current OSes support both IP versions. The big | difference would be in the appliances such as firewalls and load | balancers. | | The way I see it, the large value isn't in making a random IPv6 host | talk to a random IPv4 host. Rather, it's allowing a random IPv6 host | to talk to the infrastructures of large content networks that exist | in IPv4 which seem to be having a hard time moving to IPv6. | | As far as having the IPv6 host know about the translation: a very | simple way to do this is with proxies. Today, applications need to | know about proxies but I don't think it would be too hard to make the | OS support this. I.e., when an IPv6-only host wants to set up a TCP | session towards an IPv4-only host, the stack intercepts the request, | connects to a proxy and asks the proxy to set up a session towards | the IPv4 address in question. When the connection is there, the TCP | session is given to the application. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 08:06:03 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiU8Z-000778-Cb for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:06:03 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiU8Y-00062o-61 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:06:03 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiU7h-0003sT-Gw for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:05:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, SPOOF_COM2OTH autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiU7e-0003rd-Fs for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:05:08 +0000 Received: from [163.117.140.35] ([163.117.140.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9IC1xdx080530 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:01:59 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <8DE7D48C-DAA9-4DCA-9963-63E0D5756F0F@muada.com> Cc: Brian E Carpenter , IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:04:52 +0200 To: todd@fries.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: c1c65599517f9ac32519d043c37c5336 On 18-okt-2007, at 13:49, Todd T. Fries wrote: > 'not too big a deal to modify a v4 host' The absolute size of the deal isn't in question, it's the relative size when comparing moving to IPv6 wholesale (not happening at a reasonable pace) vs a mechanism that lets unmodified IPv6 hosts talk to unmodified IPv4 hosts (NAT-PT, is now dead) vs a mechanism that lets unmodified IPv6 hosts talk to modified IPv4 hosts vs a mechanism that lets modified IPv6 hosts talk to unmodified IPv4 hosts. Since all hosts that can be reasonably considered upgradable have both IPv4 AND IPv6 code on board the difference in scope between modifying one vs the other is small. Obviously changing deployments is rather different between IPv4 and IPv6. > If you're a v4 host wanting to talk to v6 land, visit: > http://freedaemonconsulting.com.ipv4.sixxs.org/ There's more to life than HTTP. (I happen to be in a place that is blanketed by a wifi network that only supports port HTTP/port 80. This is almost useless.) > Proxies are indeed a valid transition mechanism, they are in place and > working, today. Ok, we can agree on that part then. > What you propose adds more bandaids to IPv4 and further muddies and > confuses > the waters. I'm sure it will be much easier to go back to a clean architecture for IPv4 right after we stop running it. :-) > Do you not realize why IPv4 mapped addresses were a bad idea? That's an unanswerable question, because knowing something (realizing it) implies the knowledge is true. I DO know that some people think that, and I vehemently disagree. Using separate APIs to talk IPv4 and IPv6 is an incredibly bad idea. Now that the IPv6 API is widely supported, applications should just use that one, whether the resulting packets are IPv4 or IPv6. But how does this relate to the question at hand, exactly? From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 08:20:04 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiUM8-0005F3-1Z for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:20:04 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiUM6-0006w1-Od for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:20:04 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiUL7-0006S0-6k for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:19:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.4 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, SPOOF_COM2OTH autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [171.71.176.72] (helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiUL4-0006Ri-MP for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:18:59 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.21,295,1188802800"; d="scan'208";a="536945712" Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 18 Oct 2007 05:18:57 -0700 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l9ICIuOh007669; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:18:56 +0200 Received: from xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-332.cisco.com [144.254.231.87]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.12.10/8.12.6) with ESMTP id l9ICInUh014728; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:18:49 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com ([144.254.231.91]) by xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:18:44 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: Enhanced SIIT Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:18:45 +0200 Message-ID: <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3819BBC37@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <8DE7D48C-DAA9-4DCA-9963-63E0D5756F0F@muada.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Enhanced SIIT Thread-Index: AcgRf1kPSvSjW/fcSs6/OtJTjP/1BgAAU3dQ From: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" To: "Iljitsch van Beijnum" , Cc: "Brian E Carpenter" , "IPv6 Operations" , "Jari Arkko" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Oct 2007 12:18:44.0868 (UTC) FILETIME=[07299C40:01C81181] X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: SMEX-8.0.0.1181-5.000.1023-15490.001 X-TM-AS-Result: No--11.695600-8.000000-31 X-TM-AS-User-Approved-Sender: No X-TM-AS-User-Blocked-Sender: No DKIM-Signature: v=0.5; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=2334; t=1192709936; x=1193573936; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=gvandeve@cisco.com; z=From:=20=22Gunter=20Van=20de=20Velde=20(gvandeve)=22=20 |Subject:=20RE=3A=20Enhanced=20SIIT |Sender:=20; bh=n/ZLujCsNsftDP7UOCGoD6lTRNJhruljaqJ0IQ0SRVY=; b=OcN22L8wbd+GImuTfXtskMkvplnFuj8arPmjarpxnSRNHrMELN+WyMy/DXTUuNO+3ZIsWIWk ELyvyXS/kRjwxDLs3J5/IvXxnFGc3ZyovrsoqL57+X747BtqeBOuJfM0; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=gvandeve@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 244a2fd369eaf00ce6820a760a3de2e8 Why not extend MIP? One can assume that people would roam between v4 only and v6 only sites in future. could MIP not be a technology dealing with this? G/ =20 -----Original Message----- From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Iljitsch van Beijnum Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 2:05 PM To: todd@fries.net Cc: Brian E Carpenter; IPv6 Operations; Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT On 18-okt-2007, at 13:49, Todd T. Fries wrote: > 'not too big a deal to modify a v4 host' The absolute size of the deal isn't in question, it's the relative size when comparing moving to IPv6 wholesale (not happening at a reasonable pace) vs a mechanism that lets unmodified IPv6 hosts talk to unmodified IPv4 hosts (NAT-PT, is now dead) vs a mechanism that lets unmodified IPv6 hosts talk to modified IPv4 hosts vs a mechanism that lets modified IPv6 hosts talk to unmodified IPv4 hosts. Since all hosts that can be reasonably considered upgradable have both IPv4 AND IPv6 code on board the difference in scope between modifying one vs the other is small. Obviously changing deployments is rather different between IPv4 and IPv6. > If you're a v4 host wanting to talk to v6 land, visit: > http://freedaemonconsulting.com.ipv4.sixxs.org/ There's more to life than HTTP. (I happen to be in a place that is blanketed by a wifi network that only supports port HTTP/port 80. =20 This is almost useless.) > Proxies are indeed a valid transition mechanism, they are in place and > working, today. Ok, we can agree on that part then. > What you propose adds more bandaids to IPv4 and further muddies and=20 > confuses the waters. I'm sure it will be much easier to go back to a clean architecture for IPv4 right after we stop running it. :-) > Do you not realize why IPv4 mapped addresses were a bad idea? That's an unanswerable question, because knowing something (realizing it) implies the knowledge is true. I DO know that some people think that, and I vehemently disagree. Using separate APIs to talk IPv4 and IPv6 is an incredibly bad idea. Now that the IPv6 API is widely supported, applications should just use that one, whether the resulting packets are IPv4 or IPv6. But how does this relate to the question at hand, exactly? From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 08:28:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiUUS-0000x8-LX for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:28:40 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiUUR-0007CV-CA for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:28:40 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiUTv-0008QX-1N for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:28:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, SPOOF_COM2OTH autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [66.210.104.252] (helo=FreeDaemonHosting.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiUTs-0008Q3-3F for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:28:05 +0000 Received: from blue.fries.net (blue.hse.fries.net [IPv6:2001:240:58a::1c]) by FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l9ICRVlm001672; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:27:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blue.fries.net (localhost.fries.net [IPv6:::1]) by blue.fries.net (8.14.1/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l9ICROW5017959; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:27:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from todd@localhost) by blue.fries.net (8.14.1/8.13.6/Submit) id l9ICREYu002982; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:27:14 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 07:27:14 -0500 From: "Todd T. Fries" To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Cc: Brian E Carpenter , IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT Message-ID: <20071018122712.GB2096@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> <8DE7D48C-DAA9-4DCA-9963-63E0D5756F0F@muada.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8DE7D48C-DAA9-4DCA-9963-63E0D5756F0F@muada.com> X-Operating-System: OpenBSD blue.fries.net 4.2 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddfries@gmail.com X-IM: toddfries:AIM 115268457:ICQ todd@fries.net:MSN X-Jabber: toddfries@gmail.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.12-2006-07-14 X-FDH-MailScanner-Information: http://FreeDaemonHosting.com/MailScanner.html X-FDH-MailScanner: clean X-FDH-MailScanner-From: todd@fries.net Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 8fbbaa16f9fd29df280814cb95ae2290 Penned by Iljitsch van Beijnum on 20071018 14:04.52, we have: | On 18-okt-2007, at 13:49, Todd T. Fries wrote: | | >'not too big a deal to modify a v4 host' | | The absolute size of the deal isn't in question, it's the relative | size when comparing moving to IPv6 wholesale (not happening at a | reasonable pace) vs a mechanism that lets unmodified IPv6 hosts talk | to unmodified IPv4 hosts (NAT-PT, is now dead) vs a mechanism that | lets unmodified IPv6 hosts talk to modified IPv4 hosts vs a mechanism | that lets modified IPv6 hosts talk to unmodified IPv4 hosts. | | Since all hosts that can be reasonably considered upgradable have | both IPv4 AND IPv6 code on board the difference in scope between | modifying one vs the other is small. Obviously changing deployments | is rather different between IPv4 and IPv6. | | >If you're a v4 host wanting to talk to v6 land, visit: | | > http://freedaemonconsulting.com.ipv4.sixxs.org/ | | There's more to life than HTTP. (I happen to be in a place that is | blanketed by a wifi network that only supports port HTTP/port 80. | This is almost useless.) | | >Proxies are indeed a valid transition mechanism, they are in place and | >working, today. | | Ok, we can agree on that part then. | | >What you propose adds more bandaids to IPv4 and further muddies and | >confuses | >the waters. | | I'm sure it will be much easier to go back to a clean architecture | for IPv4 right after we stop running it. :-) | | >Do you not realize why IPv4 mapped addresses were a bad idea? | | That's an unanswerable question, because knowing something (realizing | it) implies the knowledge is true. I DO know that some people think | that, and I vehemently disagree. Using separate APIs to talk IPv4 and | IPv6 is an incredibly bad idea. Now that the IPv6 API is widely | supported, applications should just use that one, whether the | resulting packets are IPv4 or IPv6. | | But how does this relate to the question at hand, exactly? The question I think is the wrong question. I've read enough of the discussion on this topic to realize the people discussing it here presume that stateless communication between IPv4 and IPv6 is some holy grail that must be achieved at all costs. I'm stepping back a few paces and adding some water to your collective faces and saying ... um, lets think about this for a second. The question you are trying to answer is "How can we provide IPv6 to IPv4 stateless conversations so as to make things easier to transition?" I agree with half of that statement, that making things easier to transition is a useful thing. However, any stateless transition mechanism is going to be as harmful as IPv4 mapped IPv6 addressing given that you add an entire complex case to firewalls and any security issues you wish to address. If you get your wish and provide that any IPv6 host can talk to any IPv4 host with special extensions, suddenly you drop the collective pants on any IPv4 host's firewall, just the same as the issues presented with IPv4 mapped IPv6 addresses. I think this is very much relevant here for this question and this discussion. To answer your other statement, I cannot see how you call the IPv6 api something to transition to and once transitioned to, you cannot use the IPv4 API. There are some new standard functions, getaddrinfo() for example, that support both protocols. If you write your code properly, you need not care which protocol you are talking to. If you have an application that keeps track of the IP address in some manner, then you'll need to add the support for IPv6 but this hardly mandates removing the IPv4 address handling. In either case, dual stack machines have the capability to talk to either IPv6 or IPv4 depending on which addresses are available for the services they wish to communicate with. So, I might humbly submit that to make transition easy, one would need to convince people there is a reason to rollout IPv6 support. I have an understanding that at least in the US, major carriers (Sprint, Level3, UUNet, AT&T, Verizon, etc..) are in various stages of implementing IPv6 backbone services in order to meet the June 2008 deadline for the US Government to be fully capable with IPv6. They have incentive to keep their carrier agreements with the government and adding IPv6 allows them to do this. So there is infrastructure in place that is transitioning to IPv6 as we speak. The biggest holdup in the IPv6 transition in my humble opinion is the lack of having IPv6 root dns servers in the advertised/example root.cache/root.hints file. Some brain cell in the back of my head reminds me that the transition as stated ages ago suggested 'routers and dns servers first, hosts second'. Why can we not get the dns part right, years after the transition has started? Automagic solutions that require updates that have no experimental experience and no reference to any security implications seems to me to be a last ditch effort at doing the worst possible thing at this time. What is so wrong with talking dual stack for a time, and upgrading like mad during that time to enable as many people to have either native or tunneled IPv6 access? Hmm, that'd require work, not talk. I get it. Thanks, -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net _____________________________________________ | \ 1.636.410.0632 (voice) | Free Daemon Consulting \ 1.405.227.9094 (voice) | http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com \ 1.866.792.3418 (FAX) | "..in support of free software solutions." \ 250797 (FWD) | \ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 09:16:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiVEH-0002io-Lt for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:16:01 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiVEG-0000mX-D1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:16:01 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiVBw-000HnH-Fi for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:13:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, SPOOF_COM2OTH autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [144.140.92.155] (helo=omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiVBt-000Hfp-GY for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:13:35 +0000 Received: from oaamta05sl.mx.bigpond.com ([124.190.106.219]) by omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20071018131328.CALF5350.omta03sl.mx.bigpond.com@oaamta05sl.mx.bigpond.com> for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:13:28 +0000 Received: from PC20005 ([124.190.106.219]) by oaamta05sl.mx.bigpond.com with ESMTP id <20071018131328.MJGF24025.oaamta05sl.mx.bigpond.com@PC20005>; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:13:28 +0000 From: "Hesham Soliman" To: "'Gunter Van de Velde \(gvandeve\)'" , "'Iljitsch van Beijnum'" , Cc: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" , "'Jari Arkko'" Subject: RE: *****SPAM***** RE: Enhanced SIIT Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:13:17 +1000 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 In-Reply-To: <70672088D7D2CE409FB05DDD7B73D3819BBC37@xmb-ams-33c.emea.cisco.com> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3198 Thread-Index: AcgRf1kPSvSjW/fcSs6/OtJTjP/1BgAAU3dQAAHxeIA= Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -0.6 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 73734d43604d52d23b3eba644a169745 > Why not extend MIP? > > One can assume that people would roam between v4 only and v6 > only sites > in future. > could MIP not be a technology dealing with this? => See: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mip6-nemo-v4traversal-05.txt and http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-mip4-dsmipv4-05.txt Hesham > > G/ > > > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On > Behalf Of Iljitsch van Beijnum > Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2007 2:05 PM > To: todd@fries.net > Cc: Brian E Carpenter; IPv6 Operations; Jari Arkko > Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT > > On 18-okt-2007, at 13:49, Todd T. Fries wrote: > > > 'not too big a deal to modify a v4 host' > > The absolute size of the deal isn't in question, it's the > relative size > when comparing moving to IPv6 wholesale (not happening at a > reasonable > pace) vs a mechanism that lets unmodified IPv6 hosts talk to > unmodified > IPv4 hosts (NAT-PT, is now dead) vs a mechanism that lets unmodified > IPv6 hosts talk to modified IPv4 hosts vs a mechanism that > lets modified > IPv6 hosts talk to unmodified IPv4 hosts. > > Since all hosts that can be reasonably considered upgradable > have both > IPv4 AND IPv6 code on board the difference in scope between modifying > one vs the other is small. Obviously changing deployments is rather > different between IPv4 and IPv6. > > > If you're a v4 host wanting to talk to v6 land, visit: > > > http://freedaemonconsulting.com.ipv4.sixxs.org/ > > There's more to life than HTTP. (I happen to be in a place that is > blanketed by a wifi network that only supports port HTTP/port 80. > This is almost useless.) > > > Proxies are indeed a valid transition mechanism, they are > in place and > > > working, today. > > Ok, we can agree on that part then. > > > What you propose adds more bandaids to IPv4 and further > muddies and > > confuses the waters. > > I'm sure it will be much easier to go back to a clean > architecture for > IPv4 right after we stop running it. :-) > > > Do you not realize why IPv4 mapped addresses were a bad idea? > > That's an unanswerable question, because knowing something (realizing > it) implies the knowledge is true. I DO know that some people think > that, and I vehemently disagree. Using separate APIs to talk IPv4 and > IPv6 is an incredibly bad idea. Now that the IPv6 API is widely > supported, applications should just use that one, whether > the resulting > packets are IPv4 or IPv6. > > But how does this relate to the question at hand, exactly? > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 09:23:30 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiVLW-00048F-Cp for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:23:30 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiVLU-00019E-Ty for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 09:23:30 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiVKx-000JgR-4m for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:22:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiVKu-000Jfo-AL for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 13:22:53 +0000 Received: from [163.117.140.35] ([163.117.140.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9IDJklc084731 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:19:48 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20071018122712.GB2096@fries.net> References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> <8DE7D48C-DAA9-4DCA-9963-63E0D5756F0F@muada.com> <20071018122712.GB2096@fries.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <87A9F05E-D042-479C-A427-AE9CA426AC79@muada.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:22:42 +0200 To: todd@fries.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 92df29fa99cf13e554b84c8374345c17 On 18-okt-2007, at 14:27, Todd T. Fries wrote: > The question I think is the wrong question. I've read enough of the > discussion on this topic to realize the people discussing it here > presume > that stateless communication between IPv4 and IPv6 is some holy > grail that > must be achieved at all costs. It's not so much the statelessness that's important, but the ability for people to go ahead with IPv6 and reduce their IPv4 footprint *now* rather than more or less be forced to wait until everyone else is dual stack. The problem with dual stack is that it provides no compelling benefits: you get all the complexity that's in IPv4, all the complexity that's in IPv6, and any complexity arising from their interaction to boot. > However, any stateless transition mechanism is going to be as > harmful as > IPv4 mapped IPv6 addressing given that you add an entire complex > case to > firewalls and any security issues you wish to address. Unfortunately, firewalls are used in such an abundant variety of harmful ways, that there is no reasonable way to accommodate their use in most IETF work. People shouldn't depend on firewalls as crutches that let them keep doing things that they shouldn't be doing. > To answer your other statement, I cannot see how you call the IPv6 api > something to transition to and once transitioned to, you cannot use > the IPv4 API. I'm not saying you can't, I'm saying it doesn't make sense to use different code paths for IPv4 and IPv6. > There are some new standard functions, getaddrinfo() for example, that > support both protocols. If you write your code properly, you need not > care which protocol you are talking to. Right. That's exactly what I'm saying. But the OpenBSD people didn't want that, and made sure their kernel would only allow the IPv6 API to generate IPv6 packets. Fortunately, this is something that's no longer a system-wide setting these days (well, unless you use Windows XP, where v4 and v6 are separate protocols that shall never meet in an API) but something that applications can control. [...] > So there is infrastructure in place that is transitioning to IPv6 > as we speak. On the other hand, none of the big content sites uses IPv6, very few end-user ISPs offer IPv6 and none of the common CPEs support IPv6. The same thing was true several years ago, but we are now making way more progress using up the remaining IPv4 space than adding IPv6 in these three areas. > The biggest holdup in the IPv6 transition in my humble opinion is > the lack > of having IPv6 root dns servers in the advertised/example > root.cache/root.hints > file. Huh? Not to say that I'm happy with the glacial progress in that area, but how exactly would that help? 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    ------=_NextPart_000_17E5669_01C81199.69FEE4C0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 11:50:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiXdw-0003bs-Gd for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:50:40 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiXds-0006RU-Aa for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:50:37 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiXaC-000OKr-TB for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:46:48 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [65.67.187.82] (helo=defiant.dfw.nostrum.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiXaA-000OKC-18 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:46:47 +0000 Received: from ssprunkxp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by defiant.dfw.nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id l9IFkXO1025439; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:46:34 -0500 Message-ID: <013001c8119e$0d421a40$82a723c0@atlanta.polycom.com> From: "Stephen Sprunk" To: "Brian E Carpenter" , "Alain Durand" Cc: "Iljitsch van Beijnum" , "IPv6 Operations" , "Jari Arkko" References: <47168518.9030407@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:22:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.1/4545/Wed Oct 17 16:05:57 2007 on defiant.dfw.nostrum.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Thus spake "Brian E Carpenter" > On 2007-10-18 10:35, Alain Durand wrote: >> On 10/17/07 2:49 PM, "Brian E Carpenter" >> wrote: >>> In my opinion we have to be very systematic about this. The only way >>> that we can avoid the intrinsic problems of stateless translation >>> seems to be to have awareness at the IPv6 end that translation is >>> happening. (The underlying problem is how to reach legacy IPv4 >>> hosts, who by definition can have no such awareness). That seems to >>> mean getting rid of the "less" in "Stateless IP/ICMP Translation", >>> so I think we need to go back to basics. I don't have any specific >>> proposals in mind, but I'm pretty sure that signalling between >>> the translator and the IPv6 host will be needed. >> >> We have been studying network-triggered translation vs >> end-device-triggered >> translation. One thing that came out of that study is what happen when >> the >> translator in the middle fails. If you have a model where mappings are >> triggered by the end-devices, you are going to create a storm of mapping >> requests to the fall-back translator. > > Yes, that seems correct. I don't see any reason why translation > should be initiated by the IPv6 host, but on the other hand, do > we want the translator to be a single point of failure? If the translation is stateless, there is no reason why the translator would be a SPOF. You'd just deploy several of them, and packets would flow through whichever one was up at any given time. S Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 11:50:44 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiXe0-0003f5-Qm for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:50:44 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiXdv-0006Rw-O8 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:50:44 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiXcD-000P98-32 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:48:53 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.8 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [66.210.104.252] (helo=FreeDaemonHosting.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiXcA-000P86-0N for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:48:51 +0000 Received: from ispdesk.fries.net ([IPv6:2001:240:58a:100::41]) by FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l9IFmXCp009259; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:48:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ispdesk.fries.net (todd@localhost.fries.net [127.0.0.1]) by ispdesk.fries.net (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l9IFmX5S002508; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:48:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from todd@localhost) by ispdesk.fries.net (8.14.1/8.14.1/Submit) id l9IFmW5E024327; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:48:32 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: ispdesk.fries.net: todd set sender to todd@fries.net using -f Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 10:48:32 -0500 From: todd@fries.net To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT Message-ID: <20071018154832.GB30053@fries.net> Reply-To: todd@fries.net References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> <8DE7D48C-DAA9-4DCA-9963-63E0D5756F0F@muada.com> <20071018122712.GB2096@fries.net> <87A9F05E-D042-479C-A427-AE9CA426AC79@muada.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <87A9F05E-D042-479C-A427-AE9CA426AC79@muada.com> X-Operating-System: OpenBSD ispdesk.fries.net 4.2 GENERIC X-PGP-Fingerprint: B6 3B 70 46 BC 0F 8C DD 14 D4 C7 D1 47 F6 23 FA X-URL: http://todd.fries.net X-tra-email: todd@{fries.net,OpenBSD.org} toddfries@gmail.com X-IM: toddfries:AIM 115268457:ICQ todd@fries.net:MSN X-Jabber: toddfries@gmail.com User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.16 (2007-06-09) X-FDH-MailScanner-Information: http://FreeDaemonHosting.com/MailScanner.html X-FDH-MailScanner: clean X-FDH-MailScanner-From: todd@fries.net Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 963faf56c3a5b6715f0b71b66181e01a Penned by Iljitsch van Beijnum on 20071018 15:22.42, we have: > On 18-okt-2007, at 14:27, Todd T. Fries wrote: > >> The question I think is the wrong question. I've read enough of the >> discussion on this topic to realize the people discussing it here presume >> that stateless communication between IPv4 and IPv6 is some holy grail that >> must be achieved at all costs. > > It's not so much the statelessness that's important, but the ability for > people to go ahead with IPv6 and reduce their IPv4 footprint *now* rather > than more or less be forced to wait until everyone else is dual stack. The > problem with dual stack is that it provides no compelling benefits: you get > all the complexity that's in IPv4, all the complexity that's in IPv6, and > any complexity arising from their interaction to boot. I use the following every hour of my business operation: - afs - dns - http - smtp - imap - ssh - ipsec Of these, I use all but the first with v6 where I can, and v4 where I can't. afs has no IPv6 roadmap to my understanding. I have a pda that I `did not realize' for several months that it had no v4 connectivity to the outside world simply because I did not use it .. I only used a local v4 link to get to my afs server. The compelling benefit to me is that I can access any system w/out port forwarding or NAT in the v6 case. If not, I can fall back to v4 if I have to. Irregardless of the mechanism, to access IPv4 networks from an IPv6 only network, there must be an IPv4 host doing some sort of proxying or translation, in that I am sure we can agree. Whether you consider this a router or a firewall or a proxy or something else, the name is the only thing changing here, the underlying concept does not change this. >> However, any stateless transition mechanism is going to be as harmful as >> IPv4 mapped IPv6 addressing given that you add an entire complex case to >> firewalls and any security issues you wish to address. > > Unfortunately, firewalls are used in such an abundant variety of harmful > ways, that there is no reasonable way to accommodate their use in most IETF > work. People shouldn't depend on firewalls as crutches that let them keep > doing things that they shouldn't be doing. I love this. This specifically states that NAT should never have gone through IETF, in my understanding. >> To answer your other statement, I cannot see how you call the IPv6 api >> something to transition to and once transitioned to, you cannot use >> the IPv4 API. > > I'm not saying you can't, I'm saying it doesn't make sense to use different > code paths for IPv4 and IPv6. In applications, I wholeheartedly agree. Proper coding ensures utilizing IPv4 or IPv6 whichever is available, applications should never care unless they specifically have to record or deal with addresses in some manner. >> There are some new standard functions, getaddrinfo() for example, that >> support both protocols. If you write your code properly, you need not >> care which protocol you are talking to. > > Right. That's exactly what I'm saying. But the OpenBSD people didn't want > that, and made sure their kernel would only allow the IPv6 API to generate > IPv6 packets. Fortunately, this is something that's no longer a system-wide > setting these days (well, unless you use Windows XP, where v4 and v6 are > separate protocols that shall never meet in an API) but something that > applications can control. > > [...] Um, I think you misunderstand. I am an `OpenBSD' person, for whatever it is worth. For an application (client) you can code like this (good for the eye, not guaranteed to compile): int connect_func(char *host, char *port) { struct addrinfo hints, *ai, *aitop; int err, net; char strport[NI_MAXSERV]; memset(&hints, 0, sizeof(hints)); hints.ai_family = AF_UNSPEC; snprintf(strport, sizeof strport, "%u", port); if ((err = getaddrinfo(host, strport, &hints, &aitop)) != 0) fatal("%s: %s port %s", __progname, host, port, strerror(err)); for (ai = aitop; ai; ai = ai->ai_next) { if (ai->ai_family != AF_INET && ai->ai_family != AF_INET6) continue; if (getnameinfo(ai->ai_addr, ai->ai_addrlen, ntop, sizeof(ntop), strport, sizeof(strport), NI_NUMERICHOST|NI_NUMERICSERV) != 0) { error("getnameinfo failed"); continue; } net = socket(ai->ai_family, ai->ai_socktype, ai->ai_protocol); if (net < 0) continue; if (connect(net, ai->ai_addr, ai->ai_addrlen) < 0) { close(net) continue; } break; } freeaddrinfo(aitop); return net; } Why do you have to insist the api is separate? It looks pretty uniformly integrated to me. If you insist that it seems odd to have a server bind to a different address familiy as a separate socket, well, that's a different discussion. That much is quite clear from the references you removed from my last email. >> So there is infrastructure in place that is transitioning to IPv6 as we >> speak. > > On the other hand, none of the big content sites uses IPv6, very few > end-user ISPs offer IPv6 and none of the common CPEs support IPv6. The same > thing was true several years ago, but we are now making way more progress > using up the remaining IPv4 space than adding IPv6 in these three areas. And why is it a bad thing to let the IPv4 space pressure convince the end-user ISP's and CPE's from supporting IPv6? Not that it should be the only means of coersion, mind you .. ;-) >> The biggest holdup in the IPv6 transition in my humble opinion is the lack >> of having IPv6 root dns servers in the advertised/example >> root.cache/root.hints >> file. > > Huh? Not to say that I'm happy with the glacial progress in that area, but > how exactly would that help? Yes, with IPv6 root servers it's possible for > a system that runs IPv6-only to reach another IPv6 system without touching > any IPv4 infrastructure if all the DNS servers in the delegation chain also > support IPv6, but the problem is that you can't run IPv6-only anyway > because then you don't have access to the top 100 web sites, any of the > large IM networks, etc. How exactly it would help is because today unless I go hunt out (and anybody else, for that matter) the actual IPv6 address of root nameservers, and then add that to the hints file directly, I have an IPv6 capable name server that only queries 2nd level name servers, not root servers, via IPv6. If I want to run a nameserver on an IPv6 only network, I have to use a dual stack fowarder or find one of the IPv6 only root servers my self. If one wishes to boot strapping IPv6 islands into using IPv6 only, then I believe that providing at least the core protocol (dns) for the internet for IPv6 without relying on IPv4 root name servers by default, both as advertised in the root.hints/root.cache file and in the default distribution of dns server software. Yes, there are many other places that rely on IPv4, but root dns server IPv6 address is not something we can control in the IPv6 islands. Thanks, -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net _____________________________________________ | \ 1.636.410.0632 (voice) | Free Daemon Consulting, LLC \ 1.405.227.9094 (voice) | http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com \ 1.866.792.3418 (FAX) | "..in support of free software solutions." \ 250797 (FWD) | \ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 11:58:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiXll-0000HT-Ud for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:58:45 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiXlj-0006jy-Ku for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:58:45 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiXl6-0002Dq-Qi for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:58:04 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [202.12.29.58] (helo=mint.apnic.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiXl4-0002DR-C0 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:58:03 +0000 Received: from [192.35.165.93] (gihm3.dhcp.nanog.merit.net [192.35.165.93]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mint.apnic.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31F0D5F36; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 01:57:59 +1000 (EST) Message-ID: <4717830D.8090309@apnic.net> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 02:00:13 +1000 From: Geoff Huston User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Alain Durand , Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT References: <47168518.9030407@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <47168518.9030407@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2007-10-18 10:35, Alain Durand wrote: >> >> >> On 10/17/07 2:49 PM, "Brian E Carpenter" >> wrote: >>> In my opinion we have to be very systematic about this. The only way >>> that we can avoid the intrinsic problems of stateless translation >>> seems to be to have awareness at the IPv6 end that translation is >>> happening. (The underlying problem is how to reach legacy IPv4 >>> hosts, who by definition can have no such awareness). That seems to >>> mean getting rid of the "less" in "Stateless IP/ICMP Translation", >>> so I think we need to go back to basics. I don't have any specific >>> proposals in mind, but I'm pretty sure that signalling between >>> the translator and the IPv6 host will be needed. >> >> We have been studying network-triggered translation vs >> end-device-triggered >> translation. One thing that came out of that study is what happen when >> the >> translator in the middle fails. If you have a model where mappings are >> triggered by the end-devices, you are going to create a storm of mapping >> requests to the fall-back translator. > > Yes, that seems correct. I don't see any reason why translation > should be initiated by the IPv6 host, but on the other hand, do > we want the translator to be a single point of failure? but if its stateless then the entire issue about single point of failure is not critical (Or have I got this entire stateless datagram forwarding model of packet switched networking entirely wrong? :-) ) From Tong627@al7ooot.org Thu Oct 18 11:59:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiXmR-0001sl-TE for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:59:27 -0400 Received: from host182-220-static.73-81-b.business.telecomitalia.it ([81.73.220.182]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiXmL-0006xX-9f for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 11:59:21 -0400 Received: from luca ([128.138.43.61]:8173 "EHLO luca" smtp-auth: TLS-CIPHER: TLS-PEER-CN1: ) by [81.73.220.182] with ESMTP id S22FDIBTQPANTYQF (ORCPT ); Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:59:56 +0200 Message-ID: <000d01c8119f$d6257370$b6dc4951@luca> From: "Tong Dubnyk" To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: ame'nage Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:59:17 +0200 Message-ID: <000d01c8119f$d6257370$b6dc4951@luca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000782-1, 17/10/2007), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 3.1 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 8ac499381112328dd60aea5b1ff596ea hello mom v6ops-archive turn all the girls on with a large piece of manhood http://grpozoom.com/ Tong Dubnyk From pbmb@bma-ca.com Thu Oct 18 15:19:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiauK-0007Dt-U7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:19:49 -0400 Received: from [189.5.147.175] (helo=marcio-565e9866.goi.virtua.com.br) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iiau2-0005lL-Su for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:19:44 -0400 Received: from [189.5.147.175] by pmx5.novani.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:16:39 -0300 From: "Hunter Wells" To: Subject: Turkey has threatened restricting U.S. access to Turkish airspace Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:16:39 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C811A2.435C8490" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: Aca6Q3M3SKME4LAVTCJ8FN4O9801QT== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1478 Message-ID: <01c811a2$435c8490$af9305bd@pbmb> X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 3da7e5d5ca82d58872786934e4963616 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C811A2.435C8490 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C811A2.435C8490" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C811A2.435C8490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit U.S. forces have searched the affected area and are trying to track down the suspects, the military said. U.S. Air Force planes prepare to take off in November 2001 from the air base at Incirlik, Turkey. "We see two serious problems with these proposals," Lavrov told reporters at the news conference with Rice, Gates and Serdyukov. He said the two sides still disagree about the threat to Europe and complained that the negotiations with the Poles and Czechs were continuing. Serdyukov agreed. As part of that plan, experts from all nations covered by the system would be based at missile defense facilities to try to improve coordination and transparency. Rice said the ideas that she and Gates presented are "conceptual at this point" and would be handed to experts to consider further. "We may decide someday to put missile defense systems on the moon, but before we get to that we may lose a chance for agreement because of you implementing your own plans," he told Rice and Gates in Russian, according to an Associated Press translation. "I agree that we did not agree on anything today," one official told reporters. He added quickly that neither Washington nor Moscow had expected significant breakthroughs. MOSCOW, Russia (AP) -- President Bush's top two Cabinet officials, expecting a polite photo op, were ambushed by a Russian leader who fears Eastern Europe may be turned into a U.S. staging point for a new Cold War. "The indirect fire attack resulted in three large explosions near the Dora market," the military said. Despite U.S. pledges of cooperation and new ideas on missile defense, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates were warned by President Vladimir Putin to back off on missile defense plans for the former Soviet sphere. "The principal thing to which we did not agree today is the deployment of anti-missile elements which have an anti-Russian character and which are to be placed in Europe," he said. Meanwhile, two U.S. soldiers were killed and five others were wounded in a mortar attack launched "in the vicinity of Baghdad" on Wednesday, the U.S. military said Saturday. The deaths put the total number of U.S. military personnel killed in the Iraq war at 3,827. The recent rise in tensions between Turkey and the United States has led the military to increase its planning for alternatives, two military officials with direct knowledge of the ongoing assessment said. The U.S. proposals are intended to ease fears that its missile defense plans threaten Russia's nuclear deterrent and include the creation of a so-called joint regional missile defense architecture to protect the United States, NATO allies in Europe and Russia. ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C811A2.435C8490 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    U.S. forces have searched the affected area and are trying to track do= wn the suspects, the military said.

    U.S. Air Force planes prepare to take off in November 2001 from the ai= r base at Incirlik, Turkey.

    "We see two serious problems with these proposals," Lavrov told report= ers at the news conference with Rice, Gates and Serdyukov. He said the tw= o sides still disagree about the threat to Europe and complained that the= negotiations with the Poles and Czechs were continuing. Serdyukov agreed=

    As part of that plan, experts from all nations covered by the system w= ould be based at missile defense facilities to try to improve coordinatio= n and transparency.

    Rice said the ideas that she and Gates presented are "conceptual at th= is point" and would be handed to experts to consider further.

    "We may decide someday to put missile defense systems on the moon, but= before we get to that we may lose a chance for agreement because of you = implementing your own plans," he told Rice and Gates in Russian, accordin= g to an Associated Press translation.

    "I agree that we did not agree on anything today," one official told r= eporters. He added quickly that neither Washington nor Moscow had expecte= d significant breakthroughs.

    MOSCOW, Russia (AP) -- President Bush's top two Cabinet officials, exp= ecting a polite photo op, were ambushed by a Russian leader who fears Eas= tern Europe may be turned into a U.S. staging point for a new Cold War.

    "The indirect fire attack resulted in three large explosions near the = Dora market," the military said.

    Despite U.S. pledges of cooperation and new ideas on missile defense, = Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates we= re warned by President Vladimir Putin to back off on missile defense plan= s for the former Soviet sphere.

    "The principal thing to which we did not agree today is the deployment= of anti-missile elements which have an anti-Russian character and which = are to be placed in Europe," he said.

    Meanwhile, two U.S. soldiers were killed and five others were wounded = in a mortar attack launched "in the vicinity of Baghdad" on Wednesday, th= e U.S. military said Saturday. The deaths put the total number of U.S. mi= litary personnel killed in the Iraq war at 3,827.

    The recent rise in tensions between Turkey and the United States has l= ed the military to increase its planning for alternatives, two military o= fficials with direct knowledge of the ongoing assessment said.

    The U.S. proposals are intended to ease fears that its missile defense= plans threaten Russia's nuclear deterrent and include the creation of a = so-called joint regional missile defense architecture to protect the Unit= ed States, NATO allies in Europe and Russia.

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Simpson, others accused of holding memorabilia dealers at gunpoint Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:16:47 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C811A2.48213890" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: Aca6QDZJWIIT0QKXHVKQX6L9WP3257== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2527 Message-ID: <01c811a2$48213890$af9305bd@qvngx> X-Spam-Score: 2.6 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 3419f078334bcda4102d3d704cee11c6 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C811A2.48213890 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C811A2.48213890" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C811A2.48213890 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Referring to the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty negotiated with the U.S. before the breakup of the Soviet Union, Putin said it must be applied to other countries but did not mention any by name. The U.S. military estimated Thursday that 15 civilians were killed by coalition forces in the operation targeting senior leaders of al Qaeda in Iraq. The military said the terrorist group put the victims in harm's way. U.S. forces have searched the affected area and are trying to track down the suspects, the military said. Russian President Vladimir Putin says any treaty must be "universal in nature." A spokesman for Putin, Dmitry Peskov, told reporters in a conference call that "some of them are quite interesting and the Russian side will start examining this proposal." The Pentagon plans to install 10 missile interceptors in Poland, linked to a missile tracking radar in the Czech Republic. The Pentagon says the system will provide some protection in Europe and beyond for long-range missiles launched from Iran, but Russia believes the system is a step toward undermining the deterrent value of its nuclear arsenal. The day got off to a rocky start when Putin kept Rice and Gates waiting for 40 minutes before meeting them and then began the session with a lengthy monologue detailing Russian complaints. The United States has repeatedly rejected Russian demands to freeze U.S. negotiations with Poland and the Czech Republic, and Rice did so again Friday, said three senior U.S. officials present at the sessions with Rice, Gates, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Defense Minister Anatoly Serdyukov. The first explosion reportedly struck a house but no injuries were reported, while the second and third explosions "caused more damage to several houses and the casualties," the military said. "We see two serious problems with these proposals," Lavrov told reporters at the news conference with Rice, Gates and Serdyukov. He said the two sides still disagree about the threat to Europe and complained that the negotiations with the Poles and Czechs were continuing. Serdyukov agreed. The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity to describe diplomatic discussions, maintained that differences were narrowed but progress was incremental and might not produce ultimate understandings. Initial reaction from Lavrov and Serdyukov, though, was less gracious. ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C811A2.48213890 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    Referring to the Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty negotiated w= ith the U.S. before the breakup of the Soviet Union, Putin said it must b= e applied to other countries but did not mention any by name.

    The U.S. military estimated Thursday that 15 civilians were killed by = coalition forces in the operation targeting senior leaders of al Qaeda in= Iraq. The military said the terrorist group put the victims in harm's wa= y.

    U.S. forces have searched the affected area and are trying to track do= wn the suspects, the military said.

    Russian President Vladimir Putin says any treaty must be "universal in= nature."

    A spokesman for Putin, Dmitry Peskov, told reporters in a conference c= all that "some of them are quite interesting and the Russian side will st= art examining this proposal."

    The Pentagon plans to install 10 missile interceptors in Poland, linke= d to a missile tracking radar in the Czech Republic. The Pentagon says th= e system will provide some protection in Europe and beyond for long-range= missiles launched from Iran, but Russia believes the system is a step to= ward undermining the deterrent value of its nuclear arsenal.

    The day got off to a rocky start when Putin kept Rice and Gates waitin= g for 40 minutes before meeting them and then began the session with a le= ngthy monologue detailing Russian complaints.

    The United States has repeatedly rejected Russian demands to freeze U.= S. negotiations with Poland and the Czech Republic, and Rice did so again= Friday, said three senior U.S. officials present at the sessions with Ri= ce, Gates, Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov and Defense Minister An= atoly Serdyukov.

    The first explosion reportedly struck a house but no injuries were rep= orted, while the second and third explosions "caused more damage to sever= al houses and the casualties," the military said.

    "We see two serious problems with these proposals," Lavrov told report= ers at the news conference with Rice, Gates and Serdyukov. He said the tw= o sides still disagree about the threat to Europe and complained that the= negotiations with the Poles and Czechs were continuing. Serdyukov agreed=

    The officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity to describe diploma= tic discussions, maintained that differences were narrowed but progress w= as incremental and might not produce ultimate understandings.

    Initial reaction from Lavrov and Serdyukov, though, was less gracious.=

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3iSD2zjJHwrFyU2KQqK7SN7cYpoaCQn7voN7R4KhI+QDdmwlPEbhitUov8G8PX+qAxJ6zNgbPPIU vbAzg8AnDfuS3K4pnXbihFXmZe/0IsYzEVQOErBBxVZcricswttJwxUT20LkdDD4uvOqoxCcGFQA KsI/ZbxR4gxhw82hxcedJO+out8rYuhQD3YA11Oancd/TWJCwxkw3NoJniPq3ex4YabTRSt0hCSq JCAAADs= ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C811A2.48213890-- From Nyhuislkues@himalhydro.com.np Thu Oct 18 16:03:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iibb1-0003Ik-N4 for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:03:55 -0400 Received: from eni239.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl ([83.21.254.239]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iibag-0007qf-SL for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:03:35 -0400 Received: by 10.25.102.178 with SMTP id MGKwwiiztxZwx; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:03:36 +0200 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.49.121 with SMTP id CBLLshrKIMGVFc.1625227287523; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:03:34 +0200 (GMT) Message-ID: <000a01c811c1$f4d836f0$effe1553@madman05106873> From: "Demier Nyhuis" To: Subject: neo-atti Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:03:31 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C811D2.B86106F0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 3.8 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C811D2.B86106F0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable wots up v6ops-archive the first step is make it big then use the dam thing! http://iilaws.com/ Demier Nyhuis ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C811D2.B86106F0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
    wots up v6ops-archive
    the first step is make it big then use the dam = thing!
    http://iilaws.com/
    Demier Nyhuis
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    From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 17:28:43 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iicv5-0003d8-S1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:28:43 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iicum-0001YN-85 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:28:43 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IicoW-000ECi-Kz for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:21:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [204.14.89.4] (helo=mail2.fluidhosting.com) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IicoU-000ECN-0s for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 21:21:55 +0000 Received: (qmail 5064 invoked by uid 399); 18 Oct 2007 21:21:52 -0000 Received: from localhost (HELO slave.dougb.net) (dougb@dougbarton.us@127.0.0.1) by localhost with ESMTP; 18 Oct 2007 21:21:52 -0000 X-Originating-IP: 127.0.0.1 Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:21:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Doug Barton To: Iljitsch van Beijnum cc: Brian E Carpenter , IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT In-Reply-To: <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> Message-ID: References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> X-OpenPGP-Key-ID: 0xD5B2F0FB X-message-flag: Outlook -- Not just for spreading viruses anymore! MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 3e15cc4fdc61d7bce84032741d11c8e5 On Thu, 18 Oct 2007, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > Being able to talk to unmodified IPv4 hosts is attractive in the short term > because there are so many of them. Sure, but I think dual stack is the answer to this problem. I realize that the people who are highly motivated to push IPv6 adoption don't like that answer, but it IS a workable answer. > But being able to keep IPv6 clean is attractive in the long term. No argument there, but the existing solution actually does a better job of keeping things clean, and I think it does a better job of easing adoption personally. > The effort to update either would be approximately the same, in my opinion, > because all current OSes support both IP versions. If I'm Joe random business owner and I'm not interested in disrupting my network to add IPv6, I'm not going to be interested in disrupting my network to add SITT either. There is no business case for content providers to do what you are suggesting they do. > The big difference would be in the appliances such as firewalls and load > balancers. Another reason dual stack is a better solution. Add IPv6 capability when/where you need it, and (in 40 years) drop IPv4 when you don't anymore. If vendors get smart and put both in the same package, so much the better. > The way I see it, the large value isn't in making a random IPv6 host talk to > a random IPv4 host. Rather, it's allowing a random IPv6 host to talk to the > infrastructures of large content networks that exist in IPv4 which seem to be > having a hard time moving to IPv6. As one of my former colleagues says, that's a difference without a distinction. For at least 90% of the users on the 'net today you're talking about the same thing. > As far as having the IPv6 host know about the translation: a very simple way > to do this is with proxies. And now you've muddied up the IPv6 that you said at the beginning you wanted to keep clean. FWIW, my opinion is that this idea is a non-starter on both ends of the wire. Doug -- If you're never wrong, you're not trying hard enough From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 18:27:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iidpu-0000sm-If for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:27:26 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iidpl-0003vY-It for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:27:26 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IidnV-000MO7-Sh for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:24:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [209.85.198.190] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IidnT-000MNi-HM for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:24:56 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so312148rvf for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:24:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=neSS0up+rcfbOBjqWTO05cuI9FAtoo5yarXCbMYL49c=; b=MLRildpJfvuy/pVddi199nwPzKDVV3QdJIuOI+Sf/F3YOG5bOvb9t5JPs+2rckSmFy835c0BS2rqagRqbMD6xG4LVN/jRcpkWn8Xq7r7XOOMOjCnENDHk+HTPgrIivVg+ueIMkJjvtJEwZOnVoxA2B3aD/LOd3HY91yxQ1+W08Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=JF9ya6Hrh1loYh73l1RqGulgdjLbBgX0fbxu7hZqzwYXmVg5BlVeP7MiHTxmcxecY81ioKNFoF6UmkU0YiF9Ydd7nOM1/yUtmtLUcK+PJ/Ku8rN2z+Wlwdf6OAjfd17wXtyvkuaYRvlMIFfnlrGWbPEQgkQ+/1YrXH7R9pVcyTU= Received: by 10.141.202.12 with SMTP id e12mr627161rvq.1192746295124; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id b24sm2637697rvf.2007.10.18.15.24.53 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:24:54 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4717DD31.1070205@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:24:49 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Sprunk CC: Alain Durand , Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT References: <47168518.9030407@gmail.com> <013001c8119e$0d421a40$82a723c0@atlanta.polycom.com> In-Reply-To: <013001c8119e$0d421a40$82a723c0@atlanta.polycom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad > If the translation is stateless, there is no reason why the translator > would be a SPOF. You'd just deploy several of them, and packets would > flow through whichever one was up at any given time. But that fails miserably if the protocol in use is stateful in a way that needs stateful translation in the NAT devices. Think about NAPT for example. I don't see how that can fail over statelessly from one box to another. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 18:29:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IidrV-0006OS-Px for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:29:05 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IidrM-0003yp-QE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:29:05 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IidqT-000Mho-15 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:28:01 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [209.85.198.190] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IidqQ-000MhP-G4 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:27:59 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so312774rvf for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:27:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0QfkHY3Qr7jClmdfRsQgIHYMtr4bayfksPvYqY81ITs=; b=D5ft+ZGoJ4zAfTSguHzS891yhdIf5JfrWJHnztZDULWyauUTDPdIlQcW52omyEc63Qu+zqUemnz+59C3cXJ133XDTSCHYbeQ8cyfRdyJh3SPU8FrNjvuB2b2PhvtyDvLOfGQeyef2i3TiaHv2UZznbcF25jJthqy+/+PLMDQDEU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=i0kAAnp8x0aRxt60pwKb+wIjfggeuasTIbGB5evCJoP3wrhr9bLW7ggGqQofXVpWb2uKSA5QIAkAboSr+aYQP49ictMMkk6UNVh5NF7v4XgMUl/IxhrCZAI3ZE9BfUHNOaZxdb/A60thZ6p8cf90yfhQPPb8ra0d59aEVDR0cNY= Received: by 10.140.187.10 with SMTP id k10mr632055rvf.1192746476145; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f42sm2628732rvb.2007.10.18.15.27.54 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4717DDE9.5040405@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:27:53 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: todd@fries.net CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> <8DE7D48C-DAA9-4DCA-9963-63E0D5756F0F@muada.com> <20071018122712.GB2096@fries.net> <87A9F05E-D042-479C-A427-AE9CA426AC79@muada.com> <20071018154832.GB30053@fries.net> In-Reply-To: <20071018154832.GB30053@fries.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de On 2007-10-19 04:48, todd@fries.net wrote: ... > > I love this. This specifically states that NAT should never have gone through > IETF, in my understanding. It didn't. See RFC 2993 and 3027 for example. RFC 3022 is not a standard. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 18:38:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iie0A-0003iX-Rg for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:38:02 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iie00-0004Fw-JC for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:38:02 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iidz1-000Nl0-Ks for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:36:51 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [209.85.198.189] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iidyz-000NkL-By for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:36:50 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so314632rvf for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:36:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=dR25zY5Jgt7+B+dCS/dlJFcXOEZelXIGYIi4bqbyclE=; b=fawEHquj3j7/aMMu4U/rwWcD+9Tc6868Qedg8rzgDmnlF3ccaREOAPddPxrXhvEYB+N2anlgUl2PNj6/7fck8+Hk78dA7LVw6+7OQ4+oLd4mFzns4WZQXRWVuWjkq0FuPrUwnkyV1oWgIK6M1ujaaAi83tSXgI7ujcO5M9nXqKI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=YcBUN8IEGmr2w6eBBYK7nScyeq2stIFJj0LITiviFsBrCS2wnTDJ9Cfz4PPNx9RT2nwGsExVJthaSRCAyJYl3coLQjKbaUYNb+6lVtOGjplwQuXQOpx5Bx58z5g7Bw8TXdj8hHN4/IpAvCjUxdbvH4c1sdBFyzYh1Qw6EkfcxWs= Received: by 10.141.145.11 with SMTP id x11mr631771rvn.1192747008065; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:36:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c20sm2636256rvf.2007.10.18.15.36.46 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 18 Oct 2007 15:36:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4717DFF9.2070404@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:36:41 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: todd@fries.net CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations Subject: OpenAFS [Re: Enhanced SIIT] References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> <8DE7D48C-DAA9-4DCA-9963-63E0D5756F0F@muada.com> <20071018122712.GB2096@fries.net> <87A9F05E-D042-479C-A427-AE9CA426AC79@muada.com> <20071018154832.GB30053@fries.net> In-Reply-To: <20071018154832.GB30053@fries.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad On 2007-10-19 04:48, todd@fries.net wrote: ... > > afs has no IPv6 roadmap to my understanding. http://workshop.openafs.org/afsbpw07/talks/openafs_roadmap_BPW_2007.pdf shows this as a "Development Project in Search of Support". So, it needs somebody willing and able to work on it. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 18:42:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iie4A-000504-Nn for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:42:10 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iie3w-0004O8-Hi for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:42:10 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iie3J-000OLY-94 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:41:17 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [64.65.64.68] (helo=outgoing01.lava.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iie3G-000OKq-R3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:41:16 +0000 Received: from malasada.lava.net (malasada.lava.net [64.65.64.17]) by outgoing01.lava.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0CD488E4; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:41:13 -1000 (HST) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:41:13 -1000 (HST) From: Antonio Querubin To: "Todd T. Fries" cc: Iljitsch van Beijnum , Brian E Carpenter , IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT In-Reply-To: <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> Message-ID: References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab On Thu, 18 Oct 2007, Todd T. Fries wrote: > Do you not realize why IPv4 mapped addresses were a bad idea? > > http://ipv6samurais.com/ipv6samurais/openbsd-audit/draft-cmetz-v6ops-v4mapped-api-harmful-01.txt I disagree. From my own experience the issues brought up in the above are simply not important for the majority of network applications which don't really care whether a connection is made by IPv4 or IPv6 nor for the majority of users who shouldn't have to know anything about the underlying network. I think Section 3.7 of the API has actually made it relatively easy for most developers to add IPv6 capability to various apps that were previously IPv4-only. If the recommendations in the above had been followed I think you'd actually see a slowdown in updates to various apps since developers would be forced to write/debug significantly more complex code. Antonio Querubin whois: AQ7-ARIN From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 18:48:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IieAK-0008HC-UN for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:48:32 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IieAG-0004aJ-2s for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:48:32 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iie9G-000P6i-8w for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:47:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [64.65.64.68] (helo=outgoing01.lava.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iie9D-000P5u-VY for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:47:25 +0000 Received: from malasada.lava.net (malasada.lava.net [64.65.64.17]) by outgoing01.lava.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76CB586B3; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:47:23 -1000 (HST) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 12:47:23 -1000 (HST) From: Antonio Querubin To: "Todd T. Fries" cc: Iljitsch van Beijnum , Brian E Carpenter , IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT In-Reply-To: <20071018122712.GB2096@fries.net> Message-ID: References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> <8DE7D48C-DAA9-4DCA-9963-63E0D5756F0F@muada.com> <20071018122712.GB2096@fries.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7a6398bf8aaeabc7a7bb696b6b0a2aad On Thu, 18 Oct 2007, Todd T. Fries wrote: > The biggest holdup in the IPv6 transition in my humble opinion is the lack > of having IPv6 root dns servers in the advertised/example root.cache/root.hints Important yes but I don't think it's the biggest holdup. Next to the routing infrastructure, the biggest holdup is the lack of IPv6 support in many apps. Dual-stack networks and hosts can get along fine without IPv6 root. Antonio Querubin whois: AQ7-ARIN From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 18:56:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IieIA-0002O0-Jr for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:56:38 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IieI6-0004qA-76 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 18:56:38 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IieHO-0000Wx-E1 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:55:50 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [65.67.187.82] (helo=defiant.dfw.nostrum.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IieHL-0000Rn-P8 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 22:55:49 +0000 Received: from ssprunkxp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by defiant.dfw.nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id l9IMtCWt000930; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:55:12 -0500 Message-ID: <00c001c811d9$edec9760$82a723c0@atlanta.polycom.com> From: "Stephen Sprunk" To: "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: "Alain Durand" , "Iljitsch van Beijnum" , "IPv6 Operations" , "Jari Arkko" References: <47168518.9030407@gmail.com> <013001c8119e$0d421a40$82a723c0@atlanta.polycom.com> <4717DD31.1070205@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:53:58 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.1/4545/Wed Oct 17 16:05:57 2007 on defiant.dfw.nostrum.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Thus spake "Brian E Carpenter" >> If the translation is stateless, there is no reason why the translator >> would be a SPOF. You'd just deploy several of them, and packets would >> flow through whichever one was up at any given time. > > But that fails miserably if the protocol in use is stateful in a way > that needs stateful translation in the NAT devices. That's the problem with _any_ stateful translation or firewalling. Any sort of hard state in the network is fragile, which is why SIIT was defined to be stateless, AIUI. If one wants to "enhance" SIIT by making it stateful, don't use the same name because that's a fundamental violation of what SIIT is -- it's even in its name. > Think about NAPT for example. I don't see how that can fail over > statelessly from one box to another. That's not stateless translation. There _are_ stateful NAPT boxes that can do failover because they share state, and that technology could be applied to a stateful variant of SIIT if desired. S Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 19:28:37 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iien7-0006fY-OB for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:28:37 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iien6-0005m7-6b for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:28:37 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiekD-0003k4-1w for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:25:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiekA-0003jq-IF for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:25:35 +0000 Received: from relay13.apple.com (relay13.apple.com [17.128.113.29]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0280D158D90C for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:25:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from relay13.apple.com (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by relay13.apple.com (Symantec Mail Security) with ESMTP id DB13228057 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:25:33 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 1180711d-a15f0bb000000861-0d-4717eb6d3067 Received: from [17.206.23.177] (il0602a-dhcp49.apple.com [17.206.23.177]) by relay13.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with ESMTP id BA96F28087 for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: james woodyatt Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 16:25:32 -0700 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAA== Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 On Oct 17, 2007, at 13:49, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > I don't have any specific proposals in mind, but I'm pretty sure > that signalling between the translator and the IPv6 host will be > needed. Yeah, but that's not a big deal, right? It's not like we haven't already capitulated completely to the need for IPv6 nodes to signal nodes in the network charged with keeping track of application state-- why not just embrace the horror and learn to love the stateful packet mangler? -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 19:54:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IifBi-0001bZ-1U for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:54:02 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IifAx-0006b8-E9 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:54:02 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iif8t-0006Jd-Fc for v6ops-data@psg.com; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:51:07 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.4 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO, RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [208.17.35.59] (helo=paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iif8q-0006JN-Mh for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:51:05 +0000 Received: from ([10.52.116.31]) by paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-TDCH7.38227369; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:50:44 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXCMB05.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.116]) by PAOAKEXCSMTP02.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Thu, 18 Oct 2007 19:50:44 -0400 Received: from 192.35.167.133 ([192.35.167.133]) by PACDCEXCMB05.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.116]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.154]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 23:50:44 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:50:42 -0600 Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT From: Alain Durand To: james woodyatt , IPv6 Operations Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Enhanced SIIT Thread-Index: AcgR4UcLfKk53LI1T8qSuil0MPHztQAAGpDo In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 Oct 2007 23:50:44.0604 (UTC) FILETIME=[B2DA8BC0:01C811E1] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab On 10/18/07 5:25 PM, "james woodyatt" wrote: > On Oct 17, 2007, at 13:49, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> I don't have any specific proposals in mind, but I'm pretty sure >> that signalling between the translator and the IPv6 host will be >> needed. > > Yeah, but that's not a big deal, right? It's not like we haven't > already capitulated completely to the need for IPv6 nodes to signal > nodes in the network charged with keeping track of application > state-- why not just embrace the horror and learn to love the > stateful packet mangler? Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb - Alain. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 20:25:00 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iiffg-0007aH-B4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:25:00 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iifeg-0007hC-Vc for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:24:58 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iifcy-000A64-Tl for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 00:22:12 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [209.85.198.186] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iifcw-000A5p-At for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 00:22:11 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so337458rvf for ; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:22:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6PvoMk9TfpaM98M7o3ObC+DQ3xiDI7FsEEk4mYoqsgg=; b=ppTh1s8ZedmOpDB4EzA82uKr4ZBSgQvYfPjaBoKdf85Z0ZSZ3O1Xk/0CNkJalvnQrmMJxp25H+oaF9q14CwgzFy/dh65zzm3eeAlxFY6Zlkt87r7NV10Xw+uUsH2n3eeIuPWjdlM2CRy9iR4pMxuYH29f1+fR1mNB+GWDZUV1sM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=E1SVlOaIz+pO09DPxz+YljgJ4/zftXp/gadmWeXUefIUlEBGtDegKTj1H1myzodukNuboCQlv+6Ipso6pjqbLlojSX/y0+nJ7xrUAuCDTsZCad0T6uQzSCm4lyA644CoN++cZQpk9j/FB6b+pFb/e72XaBEjV31sZj1ALpU3o2M= Received: by 10.141.203.7 with SMTP id f7mr663895rvq.1192753327619; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 2sm2783796rvi.2007.10.18.17.22.06 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 18 Oct 2007 17:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4717F8A9.90907@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:22:01 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Hesham Soliman CC: 'Alain Durand' , 'Iljitsch van Beijnum' , 'IPv6 Operations' , 'Jari Arkko' Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0ddefe323dd869ab027dbfff7eff0465 Hesham, On 2007-10-18 16:35, Hesham Soliman wrote: > > > > > > In my opinion we have to be very systematic about this. > > The only way > > > that we can avoid the intrinsic problems of stateless translation > > > seems to be to have awareness at the IPv6 end that translation is > > > happening. (The underlying problem is how to reach legacy IPv4 > > > hosts, who by definition can have no such awareness). That seems to > > > mean getting rid of the "less" in "Stateless IP/ICMP Translation", > > > so I think we need to go back to basics. I don't have any specific > > > proposals in mind, but I'm pretty sure that signalling between > > > the translator and the IPv6 host will be needed. > > > > We have been studying network-triggered translation vs > > end-device-triggered > > translation. One thing that came out of that study is what > > happen when the > > translator in the middle fails. If you have a model where > > mappings are > > triggered by the end-devices, you are going to create a > > storm of mapping > > requests to the fall-back translator. > > => I don't know if anyone remembers this draft by Eirk and I some 7 years > ago: > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ngtrans-siit-dstm-01 > > It did maintain the statelessness of the translator. The concern at the time > was that > allocating addresses based on external triggers (DNS lookup from some node > on the Internet) > was a serious DoS attack. But even if you remove that feature/bug, the rest > of the draft still applies today, given a mechanism of allocating an IPv4 > address to the IPv6 host. At the time we chose DSTM, but any mechanism would > work. I think it can be a good reference if the WG still wants to work with > translators. I didn't consciously remember that draft, but DSTM+NAT4 did occur to me the other day as a possibility. However, I don't think there's any real need for the DSTM server and the SIIT or NAT4 box to be separate - the main point is to define how the IPv6 end knows that it's being forced from native IPv6 mode to translated mode, and knows what the other end's view of the source and destination addresses is. (It sounds a bit like shim6 at that point, with the legacy IPv4 host only being able to handle IPv4 ULIDs.) Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Oct 18 20:44:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iifyu-0006ZU-K8 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:44:52 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iifyt-0008H4-Bz for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Thu, 18 Oct 2007 20:44:52 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IifvO-000Bwu-BQ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 00:41:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [60.234.76.2] (helo=unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IifvL-000Bwb-FV for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 00:41:13 +0000 Received: from [202.20.97.138] (unknown [202.20.97.138]) by unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24D56271CF; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:41:09 +1300 (NZDT) In-Reply-To: <00c001c811d9$edec9760$82a723c0@atlanta.polycom.com> References: <47168518.9030407@gmail.com> <013001c8119e$0d421a40$82a723c0@atlanta.polycom.com> <4717DD31.1070205@gmail.com> <00c001c811d9$edec9760$82a723c0@atlanta.polycom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Alain Durand , Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan Ward Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 13:41:07 +1300 To: Stephen Sprunk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b4a0a5f5992e2a4954405484e7717d8c On 19/10/2007, at 11:53 AM, Stephen Sprunk wrote: > That's not stateless translation. There _are_ stateful NAPT boxes > that can do failover because they share state, and that technology > could be applied to a stateful variant of SIIT if desired. I'll just close my un-sent email, then. For sake of clarity, I'll note that my interpretation of NAPT is Network Address and Port Translation, not " " Protocol ". I don't think updating IPv4 hosts is feasible at this point - the reason I'm not putting AAAA records in parallel with my A records for my web content is that NAPTing non-RFC1918 IPv4 breaks 6to4 for 1-2% of my users. About 4% of my users are versions of Windows without IPv6 capability. I'm told that IE7.0 is being pushed out to Windows XP machines automatically now, yet 54% of Windows machines that hit my are running IE6.0. What both these thing tell me is that even if vendors did make this available, a large number of people aren't going to run the updates to get the code. While this solution may be the cleanest on paper, we're at the point where we need to be deploying practical, realistically achievable solutions for these problems, instead of introducing complexity in to legacy parts of the network. My view is that the path of least resistance is to create an extension for IPv6 to do this, as opposed to an extension to IPv4. The approach of using some kind of proxy was proposed, and that's my preferred solution at this stage if some kind of IPv6 host to IPv4 host scheme is deemed needed - the drawback is that it doesn't allow IPv4 hosts to establish new connections to IPv6 hosts, only IPv6 -> IPv4. While it's my preferred solution, I'm still on the fence as to whether it's worth doing. As an aside, this might be easier if TCP and UDP ports for most applications didn't have default values.. My solution to one day not having IPv4 addresses to assign to end users (home broadband/dial users) right now, is to run dual-stack, where the v4 part of the stack is NAPTed. It's not ideal, as users are going to be double NAPTed if they have their own unit doing it at home, but it won't prevent them from getting to regular content providers which is the the first requirement from my POV. As I've noted recently, P2P clients are now becoming IPv6 aware so from an end user's POV, that stuff is still likely to work for them for the most part. Realistically, so few of those people are going to be running SIP, and even fewer are going to be running SIP UA's not provided by their service provider, that I'm really not concerned about that. Depending on people's businesses, they can look at offering enhanced plans with a 'real' IPv4 address, or maybe it's stuck on freely for customers who call helpdesk with problems with certain applications - sticking my finger in the air tells me that the majority simply won't care. Bleak? Maybe. I really don't see a realistic alternative (save for slight modifications of the above) to get us through the next 5 (or so) years. -- Nathan Ward From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 19 03:10:52 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iim0S-0001vF-I4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 03:10:52 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iim0I-0001Qk-CV for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 03:10:48 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiluK-000H8u-HY for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:04:32 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [60.234.76.2] (helo=unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IiluH-000H8d-UO for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:04:31 +0000 Received: from [10.0.1.198] (unknown [202.20.97.135]) by unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3929928452 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 20:04:29 +1300 (NZDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <4712EDC1.4070203@kl.net> References: <2D470CEF-DFA9-4ED5-BAB5-22F12D0ED400@daork.net> <4710914A.1030801@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <7E668EFD-1667-4AFC-A6D0-675C8BAB2D14@apple.com> <2317292C-F5EB-4738-8FE8-6062F94C420A@daork.net> <9FC3900F-89A3-40B1-A815-387C8DD9F49C@daork.net> <4712EDC1.4070203@kl.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <6C91DD44-3188-42F8-8E60-D37344213036@daork.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan Ward Subject: Re: 6to4 relay and Teredo relay load - Bittorrent. Now with numbers! Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 20:04:27 +1300 To: v6ops WG X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: e5ba305d0e64821bf3d8bc5d3bb07228 On 15/10/2007, at 5:34 PM, Kevin Loch wrote: > Nathan Ward wrote: >> On 14/10/2007, at 5:52 PM, Nathan Ward wrote: >>> >> Exciting times. >> From the Azureus changelog for v3.0.2.0, August 20 2007: >> - Core | IPv6 support - dht, version server, tracker and improved >> transport >> This corresponds with at least one 6to4 relay's increase in >> traffic. (only up about 1kbit/s, but it's about 2-3 times what it >> was before. > > I also saw a slight increasae in traffic on 2007/08/20. It's more > noticeable in the pps graph than the bits/s. This relay > (AS33437/AS29748) currently averages about 1mbit/s. OK. As you'll note from my stats from my packet traces, very few would have come through a relay, as most are 6to4, so it's difficult to tell how much this has increased 6to4 traffic between end sites. Though, I'm going to have a look at the code and attempt to figure out if it has some way of optimising things to prefer 6to4 if it is on 6to4 itself, etc. (I am on 6to4 myself, so if there is a preference like that, it would explain the higher amount of 6to4 vs. other). -- Nathan Ward From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 19 04:07:36 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IimtL-0006DT-TY for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:07:36 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IimtH-0003FJ-5r for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:07:33 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IimrG-000LxS-Gw for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:05:26 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IimrA-000LvO-N3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:05:25 +0000 Received: from [163.117.140.35] ([163.117.140.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9J82HR6006696 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO) for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:02:18 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed To: IPv6 Operations From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Modified IPv6 to unmodified IPv4 Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:05:11 +0200 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7baded97d9887f7a0c7e8a33c2e3ea1b Several people have said they prefer the modifications that make it possible for IPv6 hosts to talk to IPv4 hosts to be on the IPv6 side. How about this: Obviously, we're trying to address the situation where the IPv6 host doesn't have a real IPv4 address all to itself. Dual stack or softwires will address the situation where that is the case. So that means NAT. What if we can keep the NAT in IPv4 rather than IPv6? So instead of applications talking IPv6 and then having a gateway translate and NAT, we have the applications talk IPv4, carry the IPv4 over IPv6 and then NAT. The interesting part here is that if we integrate the NAT and the translation, we can skip the whole IPv4 provisioning, because the NATed IPv4 address is of no importance to anyone except the application behind the NAT. So we simply use a well- known private address here. We also skip the DNS ALG and deal with A records directly. In other words: A is an IPv6 host B is an IPv4 server T is a translator X is a client app on A Y is a server app on B So X thinks it is running on an IPv4 host which has address 10.6.6.6 (or whatever well-known RFC 1918 address we want to use). In reality, A is an IPv6 host with address 2001:db8:31::1. When X wants to talk to Y, it looks up the relevant domain name and sees address 64.0.0.64. So it opens a TCP connection to 64.0.0.64. A then generates and IPv6 packet with source 2001:db8:31::1 and destination <96 fixed bits>:64.0.0.64. T translates the IPv6 packet into an IPv4 packet with source 10.6.6.6 and destination 64.0.0.64 and then proceeds to NAT, using 2001:db8:31::1 under the hood to demultiplex rather than 10.6.6.6 because 10.6.6.6 is implicitly used by ALL clients of T. X sees the
    /64.0.0.64 packets and Y may or may not notice and subsequently may or may not work around the "IPv4 NAT" in the path. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 19 04:28:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IinDR-0006o8-Sy for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:28:21 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IinDQ-0003uK-NK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:28:21 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IinBL-000O0V-O6 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:26:11 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IinBJ-000O09-6M for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:26:10 +0000 Received: from [163.117.140.35] ([163.117.140.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9J8N6FD007117 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:23:07 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> References: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Modified IPv6 to unmodified IPv4 Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:26:00 +0200 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 7655788c23eb79e336f5f8ba8bce7906 On 19-okt-2007, at 10:05, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: [...] And now let's see if we can make this stateless. The reason NATs require state is because clients can choose random source port numbers which may clash. So we give each client a small identifier that determines the range of source port numbers they may use. I.e., ID = 1 - 127, source port is 1 + ID bits + 8 bits chosen by the client. This limits the number of clients per translator to 127. Solution: give the translator more IPv4 addresses and encode them like this: 0:0:0:0::. We then use a range of 65536 fake IPv4 private addresses, where the IPv6 host selects one based on its IPv6 address such that the TCP and UDP checksums are the same for the original IPv6 address and the translated and NATed IPv4 address. Only problem is telling both sides about the combination of translator IPv4 address, port ID bits and client IPv6 address. This could be done with DHCP for the client side. So there is SOME state involved for the translator, but this is long-term per-client state rather than ephemeral per-session state so it may be worth the effort. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 19 04:35:55 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IinKl-0004JC-FV for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:35:55 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IinKk-0004A5-9W for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:35:55 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IinK1-000Oit-9q for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:35:09 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IinJy-000OiR-PW for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:35:08 +0000 Received: from [163.117.140.35] ([163.117.140.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9J8VurZ007413 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:31:57 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <20071018154832.GB30053@fries.net> References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> <8DE7D48C-DAA9-4DCA-9963-63E0D5756F0F@muada.com> <20071018122712.GB2096@fries.net> <87A9F05E-D042-479C-A427-AE9CA426AC79@muada.com> <20071018154832.GB30053@fries.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <63A46440-DE17-44A9-9F69-B9B6EC2E1E19@muada.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:34:50 +0200 To: todd@fries.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 On 18-okt-2007, at 17:48, todd@fries.net wrote: > Why do you have to insist the api is separate? It looks pretty > uniformly > integrated to me. Ok, should have been more clear: the issue is when you bind() to ANY do you get both incoming IPv4 and IPv6 requests or only one type? > If you insist that it seems odd to have a server bind to a > different address > familiy as a separate socket, well, that's a different discussion. Ok. >> On the other hand, none of the big content sites uses IPv6, very few >> end-user ISPs offer IPv6 and none of the common CPEs support IPv6. >> The same >> thing was true several years ago, but we are now making way more >> progress >> using up the remaining IPv4 space than adding IPv6 in these three >> areas. > And why is it a bad thing to let the IPv4 space pressure convince > the end-user > ISP's and CPE's from supporting IPv6? Not that it should be the > only means > of coersion, mind you .. ;-) It would be pretty bad if we run out of IPv4 space and STILL we're not ready to roll out IPv6 because IPv6 CPEs can't be had or software doesn't support IPv6. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 19 04:40:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IinOk-0002Oz-60 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:40:02 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IinOj-0004I2-0B for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:40:02 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IinNy-000P5h-5Q for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:39:14 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IinNv-000P5A-L8 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:39:13 +0000 Received: from [163.117.140.35] ([163.117.140.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9J8YDe9007459 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:34:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <47167542.1020309@gmail.com> <207A918F-91F0-4B3B-971B-47BFDAC95746@muada.com> <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: "Todd T. Fries" , Brian E Carpenter , IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:37:08 +0200 To: Antonio Querubin X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 68c8cc8a64a9d0402e43b8eee9fc4199 On 19-okt-2007, at 0:41, Antonio Querubin wrote: >> Do you not realize why IPv4 mapped addresses were a bad idea? >> http://ipv6samurais.com/ipv6samurais/openbsd-audit/draft-cmetz- >> v6ops-v4mapped-api-harmful-01.txt > I disagree. ++ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 19 05:54:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IioYm-0006vJ-3G for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 05:54:28 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IioYk-00084N-T7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 05:54:28 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IioV3-00052z-AN for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:50:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [66.210.104.252] (helo=FreeDaemonHosting.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IioV0-00052S-3I for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 09:50:35 +0000 Received: from blue.fries.net (blue.hse.fries.net [IPv6:2001:240:58a::1c]) by FreeDaemonHosting.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l9J9mLFj006650; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:48:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blue.fries.net (localhost.fries.net [IPv6:::1]) by blue.fries.net (8.14.1/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l9J9mDIl028546; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:48:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from todd@localhost) by blue.fries.net (8.14.1/8.13.6/Submit) id l9J9lx78018137; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:47:59 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: blue.fries.net: todd set sender to todd@fries.net using -f From: "Todd T. Fries" Reply-To: todd@fries.net Organization: Free Daemon Consulting To: Antonio Querubin Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 04:47:55 -0500 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.7 Cc: Iljitsch van Beijnum , Brian E Carpenter , IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200710190447.58453.todd@fries.net> X-FDH-MailScanner-Information: http://FreeDaemonHosting.com/MailScanner.html X-FDH-MailScanner: clean X-FDH-MailScanner-From: todd@fries.net Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 0a7aa2e6e558383d84476dc338324fab I personally think that handling the three case: a) normal v4 address b) v4 mapped v6 address c) v6 address is more complex than handling the two cases: a) normal v4 address b) normal v6 address Agree or not, harmful is the stance the world has taken. Lamenting the past does not move us to faster adoption of IPv6. We need an `adopt IPv6' movement... i.e. action. On Thursday 18 October 2007 17:41:13 Antonio Querubin wrote: > On Thu, 18 Oct 2007, Todd T. Fries wrote: > > Do you not realize why IPv4 mapped addresses were a bad idea? > > > > > > http://ipv6samurais.com/ipv6samurais/openbsd-audit/draft-cmetz-v6ops-v4ma > >pped-api-harmful-01.txt > > I disagree. From my own experience the issues brought up in the above are > simply not important for the majority of network applications which don't > really care whether a connection is made by IPv4 or IPv6 nor for the > majority of users who shouldn't have to know anything about the underlying > network. > > I think Section 3.7 of the API has actually made it relatively easy for > most developers to add IPv6 capability to various apps that were > previously IPv4-only. If the recommendations in the above had been > followed I think you'd actually see a slowdown in updates to various apps > since developers would be forced to write/debug significantly more complex > code. > > Antonio Querubin > whois: AQ7-ARIN -- Todd Fries .. todd@fries.net _____________________________________________ | \ 1.636.410.0632 (voice) | Free Daemon Consulting \ 1.405.227.9094 (voice) | http://FreeDaemonConsulting.com \ 1.866.792.3418 (FAX) | "..in support of free software solutions." \ 250797 (FWD) | \ \\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ 37E7 D3EB 74D0 8D66 A68D B866 0326 204E 3F42 004A http://todd.fries.net/pgp.txt From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 19 07:37:21 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiqAL-0005VS-Ty for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:37:21 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IiqAH-0003Bi-Nz for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 07:37:18 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iiq67-000FBt-6g for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:32:59 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [60.234.76.2] (helo=unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Iiq64-000FBT-IK for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:32:57 +0000 Received: from [10.0.1.198] (unknown [202.20.97.135]) by unobtainium.braintrust.co.nz (Postfix) with ESMTP id 065DA28452 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 00:32:53 +1300 (NZDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) In-Reply-To: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> References: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <900A80B9-EC7C-4336-B322-B3FA112A70E7@daork.net> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Nathan Ward Subject: Re: Modified IPv6 to unmodified IPv4 Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 00:32:52 +1300 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 8abaac9e10c826e8252866cbe6766464 On 19/10/2007, at 9:05 PM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > [...] > A is an IPv6 host > B is an IPv4 server > T is a translator > X is a client app on A > Y is a server app on B > > So X thinks it is running on an IPv4 host which has address > 10.6.6.6 (or whatever well-known RFC 1918 address we want to use). > In reality, A is an IPv6 host with address 2001:db8:31::1. When X > wants to talk to Y, it looks up the relevant domain name and sees > address 64.0.0.64. So it opens a TCP connection to 64.0.0.64. A > then generates and IPv6 packet with source 2001:db8:31::1 and > destination <96 fixed bits>:64.0.0.64. T translates the IPv6 packet > into an IPv4 packet with source 10.6.6.6 and destination 64.0.0.64 > and then proceeds to NAT, using 2001:db8:31::1 under the hood to > demultiplex rather than 10.6.6.6 because 10.6.6.6 is implicitly > used by ALL clients of T. X sees the
    /64.0.0.64 > packets and Y may or may not notice and subsequently may or may not > work around the "IPv4 NAT" in the path. It is unclear to me why one would not just deploy traditional IPv4 NAPT and regular IPv6 - it works with existing protocols, is significantly more simple, and end user hardware is (we are told) being worked on. -- Nathan Ward From akstcanderspacemnsdgs@anderspace.com Fri Oct 19 08:32:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iir1l-0001Kl-FL; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:32:33 -0400 Received: from [85.101.137.212] (helo=[85.101.137.212]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Iir1g-0005Ah-La; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 08:32:30 -0400 Received: from [85.101.137.212] by anderspace.com; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:33:02 +0200 Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 14:33:02 +0200 From: "Alberto Barron" X-Mailer: The Bat! (v2.00.8) Business Reply-To: akstcanderspacemnsdgs@anderspace.com X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Message-ID: <003027574.16477092269731@anderspace.com> To: vrrp-admin@ietf.org Subject: How Stocks and the Stock Market Work MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 93238566e09e6e262849b4f805833007
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    From carita@ehome.zzn.com Fri Oct 19 11:07:06 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IitRK-0001ck-EI for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:07:06 -0400 Received: from [200.68.94.105] (helo=[200.68.94.105]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IitRG-0002q9-2a for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:07:03 -0400 Received: from javier64 by ehome.zzn.com with ASMTP id 5AE02E28 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:10:17 -0300 Received: from javier64 ([134.106.96.152]) by ehome.zzn.com with ESMTP id 131441261BC3 for ; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:10:17 -0300 Message-ID: <000b01c81262$180031a0$695e44c8@javier64> From: "carita safda" To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: l-parent Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:09:49 -0300 Message-ID: <000b01c81262$180031a0$695e44c8@javier64> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook, Build 10.0.6626 Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2962 X-Spam-Score: 3.2 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: 08170828343bcf1325e4a0fb4584481c Monday update. Symb: T A D F (Tactical Air Defense Services) Tactical Air Defense Services (TADS), a leading provider of tactical aviation training and services to the United States and Allied Nations, has quietly positioned itself to utilize a fleet of the most advanced fighter jets and aerial refueling tankers in the world for military aviation training needs. Those who get in now are likely to see profits soar through the stratosphere. Headquartered at the Grayson County Airport in Denison, Texas – formerly the Perrin Air Force Base – Tactical Air Defense has the capability to provide clients with the most comprehensive logistical, repair, and aircraft training support available. TADS IS AS CLOSE AS IT COMES TO A SUREFIRE MONEY-MAKER. From Maislinyecp@ehome.zzn.com Fri Oct 19 11:07:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IitRK-0001de-EL for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:07:06 -0400 Received: from [200.68.94.105] (helo=[200.68.94.105]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IitRG-0002qh-Q5 for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:07:04 -0400 Received: by 10.237.139.103 with SMTP id KPDTQyLbBRPme; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:09:55 -0300 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.227.79 with SMTP id SZmoASPgCfJTDt.2173967543285; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:09:53 -0300 (GMT) Message-ID: <000a01c81262$187e8960$695e44c8@javier64> From: "Rich Maislin" To: Subject: lpoisena Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 12:09:50 -0300 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C81248.F3315160" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d8ae4fd88fcaf47c1a71c804d04f413d ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C81248.F3315160 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Monday update. Symb: T A D F (Tactical Air Defense Services) Tactical Air Defense Services (TADS), a leading provider of tactical = aviation training and services to the United States and Allied Nations, has = quietly positioned itself to utilize a fleet of the most advanced fighter jets = and aerial refueling tankers in the world for military aviation training = needs. Those who get in now are likely to see profits soar through the = stratosphere. Headquartered at the Grayson County Airport in Denison, Texas =96 formerly the Perrin Air Force Base =96 Tactical Air Defense has the = capability to provide clients with the most comprehensive logistical, repair, and = aircraft training support available. TADS IS AS CLOSE AS IT COMES TO A SUREFIRE = MONEY-MAKER. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C81248.F3315160 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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    ------=_NextPart_000_0004_01C811B2.BFE90730-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 19 17:38:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IizXo-0003ga-6a for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 17:38:12 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IizXn-0004OB-12 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 17:38:12 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IizSh-0005p3-6J for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:32:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [64.65.64.125] (helo=outgoing02.lava.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IizSe-0005od-2t for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 21:32:53 +0000 Received: from malasada.lava.net (malasada.lava.net [64.65.64.17]) by outgoing02.lava.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A59B2B85F1; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:32:50 -1000 (HST) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 11:32:50 -1000 (HST) From: Antonio Querubin To: "Todd T. Fries" cc: Iljitsch van Beijnum , Brian E Carpenter , IPv6 Operations , Jari Arkko Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT In-Reply-To: <200710190447.58453.todd@fries.net> Message-ID: References: <42AD25EF-5818-41F4-AB1D-C0D41B60ACCA@muada.com> <20071018114915.GA2096@fries.net> <200710190447.58453.todd@fries.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 On Fri, 19 Oct 2007, Todd T. Fries wrote: > I personally think that handling the three case: > > a) normal v4 address > b) v4 mapped v6 address > c) v6 address > > is more complex than handling the two cases: > > a) normal v4 address > b) normal v6 address And those two cases are more complex than coding for a single socket and internal address representation. > Agree or not, harmful is the stance the world has taken. I'm sure a software developer can make the necessary code do his/her bidding - where it matters. My point is that for the majority of code out there, it usually doesn't really matter. > Lamenting the past does not move us to faster adoption of IPv6. > > We need an `adopt IPv6' movement... i.e. action. Concur, and I would also add that we don't want to add unnecessary impediments to that movement. Antonio Querubin whois: AQ7-ARIN From CaroleelaineCorrea@aahoa.com Fri Oct 19 19:58:27 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ij1jX-0002Np-LJ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:58:27 -0400 Received: from 213-140-21-232.fastres.net ([213.140.21.232] helo=amdx2.fastwebnet.it) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ij1jX-0002k9-3y for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:58:27 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host15013101.aahoa.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id qy7ovtYl99.989614.yqb.oe5.5699426292824 for ; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 01:56:45 -0100 Message-ID: <52da9201c812ab$e28fc680$5937ec1b@amdx2> From: "Priscilla Correa" To: Subject: Approval process Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 01:56:45 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_52DA8E_01C812AB.E28FC680" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 000782-3, 19/10/2007), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d16ce744298aacf98517bc7c108bd198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_52DA8E_01C812AB.E28FC680 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even if you have no erection problems Cialis would help you to make = better sex more often and to bring unimaginable plesure to her. Just = disolve half a pill under your tongue and get ready for action in 15 = minutes! The tests showed that the majority of men after taking this = medication were able to have perfect erection during 36 hours! Package Quantity Price in your local drugstore* Our price LearnMoreNow 10 tabs 20 doses $95.95 $34.19 30 tabs 60 doses $349.95 $104.66 60 tabs 120 doses $549.95 $180.15 90 tabs 180 doses $789.95 $242.06 180 tabs 360 doses $1325.95 $445.61 When you are young and stressed up… When you are aged and never give up… Cialis gives you confidence in any chance, every time. ------=_NextPart_000_52DA8E_01C812AB.E28FC680 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20

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    ------=_NextPart_000_0002_01C812E5.014ED586-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Oct 20 11:41:16 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjGRw-0000Be-OG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 11:41:16 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjGRv-00066p-89 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 11:41:16 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IjGNF-000Pyv-Uc for v6ops-data@psg.com; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:36:25 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00, DATE_IN_PAST_03_06,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IjGNC-000PyL-VC for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 20 Oct 2007 15:36:24 +0000 Received: from [163.117.139.231] (nirrti.it.uc3m.es [163.117.139.231] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9KFWvFv038517 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Sat, 20 Oct 2007 17:33:14 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <900A80B9-EC7C-4336-B322-B3FA112A70E7@daork.net> References: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> <900A80B9-EC7C-4336-B322-B3FA112A70E7@daork.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1444BBEF-3CE6-45B5-A7CF-3EBFA0D194F9@muada.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Modified IPv6 to unmodified IPv4 Date: Sat, 20 Oct 2007 14:03:00 +0200 To: Nathan Ward X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -2.6 (--) X-Scan-Signature: 9466e0365fc95844abaf7c3f15a05c7d On 19-okt-2007, at 13:32, Nathan Ward wrote: > It is unclear to me why one would not just deploy traditional IPv4 > NAPT and regular IPv6 - it works with existing protocols, is > significantly more simple, and end user hardware is (we are told) > being worked on. The crucial difference is that in that case, the host must have IPv4 connectivity. Although building a NATed IPv4 network would at first seem easier or not much more difficult than building an IPv6 network with some gateways, I think the latter is a better way forward, especially as we're getting closer to running out of IPv4 addresses. As soon as ISPs start NATing their customers, many people will be behind double NAT, which makes it impossible to open up ports to make peer-to-peer protocols work through a single layer of NAT. If the ISP hosts the IPv6-IPv4 gateways, then it's possible to have a clean, routed path between the gateway and the end-user, even if a site has multiple hosts, which pretty much requires NAT for SOHO sites for IPv4 today. Another advantage is that the gatewayed IPv4 connectivity and real IPv6 connectivity go hand-in-hand so users always get both access to the legacy IPv4 infrastructure and the new IPv6 infrastructure that (hopefully) allows peer-to-peer applications and new protocols that would require an ALG with NAT. With regular IPv4 NAT it's still an extra hurdle to get IPv6 in there so large numbers of users will have to live with reduced transparency for some time. 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( [222.153.14.113]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g1sm7528640rvb.2007.10.20.12.11.48 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 20 Oct 2007 12:12:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <471A52DA.5050509@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 08:11:22 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Modified IPv6 to unmodified IPv4 References: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> In-Reply-To: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 538aad3a3c4f01d8b6a6477ca4248793 On 2007-10-19 21:05, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > Several people have said they prefer the modifications that make it > possible for IPv6 hosts to talk to IPv4 hosts to be on the IPv6 side. > How about this: > > Obviously, we're trying to address the situation where the IPv6 host > doesn't have a real IPv4 address all to itself. Dual stack or softwires > will address the situation where that is the case. > > So that means NAT. What if we can keep the NAT in IPv4 rather than IPv6? > So instead of applications talking IPv6 and then having a gateway > translate and NAT, we have the applications talk IPv4, carry the IPv4 > over IPv6 and then NAT. The interesting part here is that if we > integrate the NAT and the translation, we can skip the whole IPv4 > provisioning, because the NATed IPv4 address is of no importance to > anyone except the application behind the NAT. So we simply use a > well-known private address here. We also skip the DNS ALG and deal with > A records directly. > > In other words: > > A is an IPv6 host > B is an IPv4 server > T is a translator > X is a client app on A > Y is a server app on B > > So X thinks it is running on an IPv4 host which has address 10.6.6.6 (or > whatever well-known RFC 1918 address we want to use). That doesn't cover us for the day when we have true IPv6-only apps with no reptilian memory of IPv4. I think I'd rather avoid the application having any knowledge of IPv4 at all. If we're going to do this horrible thing, let's do it 100%. (As Iljitsch knows, I'm playing with some thoughts on this, but they aren't quite ready for public ridicule yet.) Brian > In reality, A is > an IPv6 host with address 2001:db8:31::1. When X wants to talk to Y, it > looks up the relevant domain name and sees address 64.0.0.64. So it > opens a TCP connection to 64.0.0.64. A then generates and IPv6 packet > with source 2001:db8:31::1 and destination <96 fixed bits>:64.0.0.64. T > translates the IPv6 packet into an IPv4 packet with source 10.6.6.6 and > destination 64.0.0.64 and then proceeds to NAT, using 2001:db8:31::1 > under the hood to demultiplex rather than 10.6.6.6 because 10.6.6.6 is > implicitly used by ALL clients of T. X sees the
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    From ehjyypgt@bloomshealth.com.au Sun Oct 21 01:00:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjSvX-0006I1-No for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 21 Oct 2007 01:00:39 -0400 Received: from 82-36-154-24.cable.ubr04.perr.blueyonder.co.uk ([82.36.154.24] helo=FLDUK781.IN2FOCUS.IN2FOCUS.CO.UK) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IjSvE-0001Pf-Jr for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Sun, 21 Oct 2007 01:00:39 -0400 Received: from [82.36.154.24] by mail.bloomshealth.com.au; , 21 Oct 2007 04:57:00 +0000 From: "Jed Calloway" To: Subject: White House says it isn't "poking a stick" in China's eye with Dalai Lama honor Date: , 21 Oct 2007 04:57:00 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_000E_01C8139E.D06C2D10" X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook, Build 11.0.5510 Thread-Index: Aca6QTIZ5LRB2EVHQ62VW2N48UKCR2== X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2869 Message-ID: <01c8139e$d06c2d10$189a2452@ehjyypgt> X-Spam-Score: 3.4 (+++) X-Scan-Signature: b6435b1bfa5977f2eb96dc7e52434b6d This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_000E_01C8139E.D06C2D10 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_000F_01C8139E.D06C2D10" ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C8139E.D06C2D10 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Iran ... has chosen a lasting logic in defending its national interests because it is certain that excessive demands of the enemies of this nation has no limits.Khamenei told Putin that Iran is serious about continuing uranium enrichment in turn but wants to avoid adventurism and cooperate with the U.N. nuclear watchdog, the news agency said.On Tuesday in Tehran, Putin warned the United States not to use a former Soviet republic to stage an attack on Iran.About 80,000 rugby fans are expected to attend Saturday's World Cup final between England and South Africa.Officials close to hard-liners within Iran's ruling Islamic establishment said they believed the proposal by Putin was a type of "time out" on U.N. sanctions against Iran, if Tehran suspends uranium enrichment. The two officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the issue.ROME, Italy (AP) -- A man opened fire in a courtroom in northern Italy on Wednesday, seriously wounding his estranged wife and killing her brother before being shot to death by police, officials said.In June 2006 the Security Council permanent members group, offered a package of economic and political rewards to Iran and a suspension of the implementation of sanctions, but only if Tehran agreed to suspend enrichment before the start of negotiations. Iran rejected that proposal.Unidentified relatives of the gunman's victims console one another outside the courtroom."The main reason for Putin's visit to Iran was to convey this message personally to the ultimate power inIran," one official said.Only one in four trains will be running on Thursday, including suburban services linking Paris to its three international airports, she said.Railway workers will join bus, power, gas and some state employees for the action called after President Nicolas Sarkozy refused to back down over planned pension reforms, according to Monique Ricard, spokeswoman for the French railway SNCF.The man and his wife were attending a court hearing in Reggio Emilia as part of separation proceedings when he pulled out a gun and pointed it at his wife and her brother, then started shooting randomly, police said."We are certainly concerned about the impact for fans. So far we've been assured the disruptions should be manageable but it remains to be seen," Jessica Chambers, a spokeswoman for the England Rugby Supporters Club.High demand has pushed upward the price of a pair of tickets for the final to as much as $3,000 in eBay auctions."He was shooting like crazy at everybody," officer Antonio Turi said.Commercial flights to the French capital were sold out, while thousands of England supporters have booked to travel on the Eurostar rail service from London to Paris. ------=_NextPart_001_000F_01C8139E.D06C2D10 Content-Type: text/html; charset="windows-1250" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

    "Iran ... has chosen a lasting logic in defending its national interes= ts because it is certain that excessive demands of the enemies of this na= tion has no limits.


    Khamenei told Putin that Iran is serious about continuing uranium enri= chment in turn but wants to avoid adventurism and cooperate with the U.N.= nuclear watchdog, the news agency said.


    On Tuesday in Tehran, Putin warned the United States not to use a form= er Soviet republic to stage an attack on Iran.


    About 80,000 rugby fans are expected to attend Saturday's World Cup fi= nal between England and South Africa.


    Officials close to hard-liners within Iran's ruling Islamic establishm= ent said they believed the proposal by Putin was a type of "time out" on = U.N. sanctions against Iran, if Tehran suspends uranium enrichment. The t= wo officials spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nat= ure of the issue.


    ROME, Italy (AP) -- A man opened fire in a courtroom in northern Italy= on Wednesday, seriously wounding his estranged wife and killing her brot= her before being shot to death by police, officials said.


    In June 2006 the Security Council permanent members group, offered a p= ackage of economic and political rewards to Iran and a suspension of the = implementation of sanctions, but only if Tehran agreed to suspend enrichm= ent before the start of negotiations. Iran rejected that proposal.

    Unidentified relatives of the gunman's victims console one another out= side the courtroom.


    "The main reason for Putin's visit to Iran was to convey this message = personally to the ultimate power inIran," one official said.


    Only one in four trains will be running on Thursday, including suburba= n services linking Paris to its three international airports, she said.

    Railway workers will join bus, power, gas and some state employees for= the action called after President Nicolas Sarkozy refused to back down o= ver planned pension reforms, according to Monique Ricard, spokeswoman for= the French railway SNCF.


    The man and his wife were attending a court hearing in Reggio Emilia a= s part of separation proceedings when he pulled out a gun and pointed it = at his wife and her brother, then started shooting randomly, police said.=


    "We are certainly concerned about the impact for fans. So far we've be= en assured the disruptions should be manageable but it remains to be seen= ," Jessica Chambers, a spokeswoman for the England Rugby Supporters Club.=


    High demand has pushed upward the price of a pair of tickets for the f= inal to as much as $3,000 in eBay auctions.


    "He was shooting like crazy at everybody," officer Antonio Turi said.<= /P>

    Commercial flights to the French capital were sold out, while thousand= s of England supporters have booked to travel on the Eurostar rail servic= e from London to Paris.


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Get yours now! http://www.shewzbb.com/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 22 04:59:59 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ijt8h-0003Ro-9b for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 04:59:59 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ijt8g-0004f3-3a for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 04:59:59 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ijt2q-000LQd-0H for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:53:56 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ijt2n-000LQH-4X for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:53:54 +0000 Received: from [163.117.140.35] ([163.117.140.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9M8of07077553 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Mon, 22 Oct 2007 10:50:44 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <471A52DA.5050509@gmail.com> References: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> <471A52DA.5050509@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Modified IPv6 to unmodified IPv4 Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 10:53:38 +0200 To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: a7d6aff76b15f3f56fcb94490e1052e4 On 20-okt-2007, at 21:11, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> So that means NAT. What if we can keep the NAT in IPv4 rather than >> IPv6? So instead of applications talking IPv6 and then having a >> gateway translate and NAT, we have the applications talk IPv4, >> carry the IPv4 over IPv6 and then NAT. The interesting part here >> is that if we integrate the NAT and the translation, we can skip >> the whole IPv4 provisioning, because the NATed IPv4 address is of >> no importance to anyone except the application behind the NAT. > That doesn't cover us for the day when we have true IPv6-only apps > with no reptilian memory of IPv4. I think I'd rather avoid the > application having any knowledge of IPv4 at all. If we're going to > do this horrible thing, let's do it 100%. Well, the way I see it there are four permutations: 1. both the IPv4 and IPv6 ends are unaware of the translation 2. the IPv4 end is aware of the translation, the IPv6 end isn't 3. the IPv4 end isn't aware of the translation, the IPv6 end is 4. both ends are aware of the translation The first case, in the form of NAT-PT has fallen into disfavor within the IETF for a variety of reasons, my favorite being that it imports NAT issues into IPv6. Personally, I believe that there is no way to resurrect a type 1. approach that doesn't have much the same issues, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. If 1. is out this basically leaves either modifying IPv4 hosts so they can talk to unmodified IPv6 hosts, or modifying IPv6 hosts so they can talk to unmodified IPv4 hosts. The former has the advantage that it keeps IPv6 clean, the latter is more pragmatic because a good part of the IPv4 installed base is presumably unupgradable. Alternatively, we could go for 4. (or rather, 2. + 3.) and come up with something where one end is modified and the other isn't, and let the operators figure out if and where they want to place the burden of extra protocol layers to talk to the other protocol. It would be good if the wg could decide on which direction is best, so that we can start work in that direction. 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The former has the > advantage that it keeps IPv6 clean, the latter is more pragmatic > because a good part of the IPv4 installed base is presumably > unupgradable. There is one significant way that unmodified IPv4 applications will never be able to manage communicating with IPv6-only peers, i.e. when their peers store their translated IPv6 addresses in some persistent storage, like a logfile or a web page or a report or anything generally intended for offline automated analysis, and the IPv4-only application needs to do that and finds that it can't cope with its address being translated out of the IPv4 address family. The reverse of this is not a problem. IPv4-only applications need to be upgraded for IPv6 if they expect to communicate effectively with IPv6-only peers. IPv6-only applications can get along just fine using IPv4-compatible IPv6 addresses (or some other address type representing the IPv4->IPv6 function) when keeping track of the translate IPv6 addresses of their IPv4-only peers. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From LoubunkMichel@people.com Mon Oct 22 17:25:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ik4mF-00012C-7N for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:25:35 -0400 Received: from [189.142.17.55] (helo=ibmcontador.gateway.2wire.net) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with smtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ik4mB-00044g-6W for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:25:33 -0400 Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by host59853890.people.com (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id DGIYIs5T39.918692.bXu.AnI.8953896767298 for ; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:23:51 -0100 Message-ID: From: "Alisa Schafer" To: Subject: Your family Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 16:23:51 -0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_A87C6_01C81580.8BC9BB30" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1106 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1106 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: d16ce744298aacf98517bc7c108bd198 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_A87C6_01C81580.8BC9BB30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Even if you have no erection problems Cialis would help you to make = better sex more often and to bring unimaginable plesure to her. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_A87C6_01C81580.8BC9BB30-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 22 17:48:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ik58G-0007Fo-1o for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:48:20 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ik58A-0005S4-Ns for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 17:48:14 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ik52s-000OMm-GL for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 21:42:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [209.85.146.180] (helo=wa-out-1112.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ik52q-000OMX-28 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 21:42:45 +0000 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id v27so1498182wah for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:42:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Zf/aDIDZOPF5OAv3jyRk7wDkuZdV1bYcW/uMI2Sin7A=; b=aXkm/OghJZ4aqXGOg7LBl5Kgeva9mCpmNUD8uZE45efAKdvGbxFpsZrqkXG3xsxENvJfgrFxejmfBxmutalxXKkjf/11KDgTF7cJ5a7cxMcyRrp3+NyyY4TKzBkmZKpLHY8wKi3858ntrENI/Z56GJgrJeaLF/dNZbvUmyutjMQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=RcgIa/GnX2xS6MUk5gHk4myAMcMtq5FXfXjUQ+0LU/okVZq9z9VOlgQkl8f/GUR9565BZZLKeg4kqeTDlqmRM3EeJeFFk4grAYJZqo4q44BZVQTDyfjz5elB14J04s3dALcztaN3NeGsskgB3velfbsZYP1W/VMDAVLLHZeA/BU= Received: by 10.115.111.1 with SMTP id o1mr5693598wam.1193089361377; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:42:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g25sm6826910wag.2007.10.22.14.42.39 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 22 Oct 2007 14:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <471D194A.6020801@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 10:42:34 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Iljitsch van Beijnum CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Modified IPv6 to unmodified IPv4 References: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> <471A52DA.5050509@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab Iljitsch, On 2007-10-22 21:53, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: ... > Well, the way I see it there are four permutations: > > 1. both the IPv4 and IPv6 ends are unaware of the translation > 2. the IPv4 end is aware of the translation, the IPv6 end isn't > 3. the IPv4 end isn't aware of the translation, the IPv6 end is > 4. both ends are aware of the translation ... > It would be good if the wg could decide on which direction is best, so > that we can start work in that direction. I agree, and I'm in no doubt that 3 is best. 1 is already discredited, and 2 and 4 don't help the true IPv4 legacy hosts. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 22 18:02:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ik5Ks-0007FC-4D for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:01:22 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ik5Kr-00071a-Og for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:01:22 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ik5Jb-0000QJ-O0 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:00:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [65.67.187.82] (helo=defiant.dfw.nostrum.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ik5JY-0000Oh-G7 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:00:02 +0000 Received: from ssprunkxp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by defiant.dfw.nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id l9MLxc7f010794; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:59:41 -0500 Message-ID: <02e301c814f6$d819a9d0$3d3816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> From: "Stephen Sprunk" To: "Brian E Carpenter" , "Iljitsch van Beijnum" Cc: "IPv6 Operations" References: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> <471A52DA.5050509@gmail.com> Subject: Re: Modified IPv6 to unmodified IPv4 Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:42:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=response Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/4565/Mon Oct 22 15:03:36 2007 on defiant.dfw.nostrum.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 0bc60ec82efc80c84b8d02f4b0e4de22 Thus spake "Brian E Carpenter" > That doesn't cover us for the day when we have true IPv6-only apps > with no reptilian memory of IPv4. I think I'd rather avoid the > application having any knowledge of IPv4 at all. If we're going to > do this horrible thing, let's do it 100%. (As Iljitsch knows, I'm > playing with some thoughts on this, but they aren't quite ready for > public ridicule yet.) Will code like that ever exist? The changes to the sockets API (e.g. getnameinfo() and getaddrinfo()) has made it so that modern apps aren't any more v4-aware than they're v6-aware; they've become version-agnostic, not separately aware of v4 and v6, unless they have a specific reason to know. The problem I think you're indirectly referring to is NAT awareness, and most of the problem there is going to exist in v6 with stateful firewalls even if we do manage to avoid creating a NATv6 world. ALGs are simpler when you only have to inspect packets, not mangle them, but they're not going away, and end hosts/apps can't get away from coping with administratively-imposed reachability problems. S Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 22 18:17:46 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ik5ak-00050A-I7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:17:46 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ik5ak-0008Au-39 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:17:46 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ik5ZP-0002GV-MQ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:16:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [209.85.146.178] (helo=wa-out-1112.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ik5ZN-0002FB-96 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:16:22 +0000 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id v27so1508972wah for ; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 15:16:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=z4TtK6aT4waOyh58VX05OAuDCyNZ3wAEvqLrh/WP0GU=; b=gHqzYPSPabWv2iFSDgigoFEGusmjK76Dk4fORDaztrhTZ4Fygh4v/VcdRxFdl7iT19azTWAIIw2E/CRkPfScEY0iZUVYJMjCNPJELXTQ6IKOOvNs+5WE3ZOlNiWGfDhTfshaV+SpWxOM8OtiWhiXBe5Yg7RRPQ5CYAqA8SM03JM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=cyb6Ws2kz89oLPXHdckpsGTCOdqNIxOo4DmMvK3xUJ8Tm8CAyE57QDI+HWXY7xsCTzmZlYOwNXz2bikycfd/mAo6dT8o6X/Q2BD+lq37P87Wtt48piCd5fUlUbAvZlii/s8gw65+lu/Oamcm985jrmfbESRsxIGOV8Bo8nvtVz4= Received: by 10.115.92.2 with SMTP id u2mr6013217wal.1193091379019; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 15:16:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m24sm9938789waf.2007.10.22.15.16.17 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 22 Oct 2007 15:16:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <471D212E.1000508@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:16:14 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Sprunk CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Modified IPv6 to unmodified IPv4 References: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> <471A52DA.5050509@gmail.com> <02e301c814f6$d819a9d0$3d3816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> In-Reply-To: <02e301c814f6$d819a9d0$3d3816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: b19722fc8d3865b147c75ae2495625f2 On 2007-10-23 10:42, Stephen Sprunk wrote: > Thus spake "Brian E Carpenter" >> That doesn't cover us for the day when we have true IPv6-only apps >> with no reptilian memory of IPv4. I think I'd rather avoid the >> application having any knowledge of IPv4 at all. If we're going to >> do this horrible thing, let's do it 100%. (As Iljitsch knows, I'm >> playing with some thoughts on this, but they aren't quite ready for >> public ridicule yet.) > > Will code like that ever exist? The changes to the sockets API (e.g. > getnameinfo() and getaddrinfo()) has made it so that modern apps aren't > any more v4-aware than they're v6-aware; they've become > version-agnostic, not separately aware of v4 and v6, unless they have a > specific reason to know. Correct. I think the tricks that have to be played are below the socket interface. (Although there is the residual problem of applications that ignore RFC 1958, RFC 2101 and RFC 2775 by storing IP addresses for future reference, but that is probably insoluble.) > > The problem I think you're indirectly referring to is NAT awareness, and > most of the problem there is going to exist in v6 with stateful > firewalls even if we do manage to avoid creating a NATv6 world. ALGs > are simpler when you only have to inspect packets, not mangle them, but > they're not going away, and end hosts/apps can't get away from coping > with administratively-imposed reachability problems. Unfortunately I believe you are correct; this has to be an exercise in damage limitation. 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 22 18:35:15 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ik5rf-0002Kc-RV for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:35:15 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Ik5rf-0000mg-F3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:35:15 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ik5q4-000484-2j for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:33:36 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [221.249.121.227] (helo=coconut.itojun.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ik5q1-00047l-4a for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:33:34 +0000 Received: by coconut.itojun.org (Postfix, from userid 501) id AA76F233E4; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:33:29 +0900 (JST) To: brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: Modified IPv6 to unmodified IPv4 In-Reply-To: Your message of "Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:16:14 +1300" <471D212E.1000508@gmail.com> References: <471D212E.1000508@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Cue version 0.8 (070521-1856/itojun) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Message-Id: <20071022223329.AA76F233E4@coconut.itojun.org> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:33:29 +0900 (JST) From: itojun@itojun.org (Jun-ichiro itojun Hagino) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 39bd8f8cbb76cae18b7e23f7cf6b2b9f > > Will code like that ever exist? The changes to the sockets API (e.g. > > getnameinfo() and getaddrinfo()) has made it so that modern apps aren't > > any more v4-aware than they're v6-aware; they've become > > version-agnostic, not separately aware of v4 and v6, unless they have a > > specific reason to know. > > Correct. I think the tricks that have to be played are below the > socket interface. (Although there is the residual problem of applications > that ignore RFC 1958, RFC 2101 and RFC 2775 by storing IP addresses for > future reference, but that is probably insoluble.) for the new deployment of applications, there are middleware (so to speak) from freebit corporation, which allows the following: - application be IPv6-only - middleware deals with all the troubles of IPv6-over-IPv4 and stuff - OS kernel can be IPv4-only, if OS kernel is IPv6-only then the middleware will do nothing this may help us for the new applications. about NAT and stuff, I think NAT-PT is the necessary evil. it was too early to deprecate NAT-PT. my assumption was below: - IPv6 to IPv6 is without NAT - IPv6 to IPv4 is somehow connected, with NAT-PT - IPv4 to IPv6 is - well, it is a bit difficult but maybe NAT-PT with wacky DNS mapping - IPv4 to IPv4 is with or without NAT (today's situation) the point is to keep IPv4 to IPv4 just like today, keep IPv6 to IPv6 to follow end-to-end principle, and end nodes must not be modified. note that there are commercial products available for NAT-PT, so you can deploy it today. if you talk about new technology development today, it won't hit the market before 2010. itojun From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 23 00:36:51 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkBVb-000455-QG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 00:36:51 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkBVb-0007Oi-Aa for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 00:36:51 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IkBQ6-000DH4-6P for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 04:31:10 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [202.180.80.82] (helo=sonic.sneep.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IkBQ3-000DGc-1r for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 04:31:08 +0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (unknown [202.180.80.82]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by sonic.sneep.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 397D944271; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 17:31:04 +1300 (NZDT) Message-ID: <471D7904.2050405@sneep.net> Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 14:31:00 +1000 From: Alastair Johnson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Nathan Ward CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Enhanced SIIT References: <47168518.9030407@gmail.com> <013001c8119e$0d421a40$82a723c0@atlanta.polycom.com> <4717DD31.1070205@gmail.com> <00c001c811d9$edec9760$82a723c0@atlanta.polycom.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 Nathan, Nathan Ward wrote: > The approach of using some kind of proxy was proposed, and that's my > preferred solution at this stage if some kind of IPv6 host to IPv4 host > scheme is deemed needed - the drawback is that it doesn't allow IPv4 > hosts to establish new connections to IPv6 hosts, only IPv6 -> IPv4. > While it's my preferred solution, I'm still on the fence as to whether > it's worth doing. As an aside, this might be easier if TCP and UDP ports > for most applications didn't have default values.. > > My solution to one day not having IPv4 addresses to assign to end users > (home broadband/dial users) right now, is to run dual-stack, where the > v4 part of the stack is NAPTed. It's not ideal, as users are going to be > double NAPTed if they have their own unit doing it at home, but it won't > prevent them from getting to regular content providers which is the the > first requirement from my POV. At least one carrier that I am aware of is currently looking closely at an approach similar to yours. Essentially, they are looking at dual-stacking the broadband access platforms to support IPv4 and IPv6 to the CPE[1]; then enabling their data centers and infrastructure for IPv6 support for their networks (eg. AAAA responses only to their customers). At the same time, an infrastructure deployment plan and architecture is developed for service-provider wide IPv4 NAPT. At 'd-day' for IPv4 exhaustion, the infrastructure is in place to support service provider wide IPv4 NAPT which allows the SP to continue supporting single and dual stack customers. There are the obvious problems with dual/multi NAT layers[2]. The customers can access IPv6 enabled content locally if they are dual stack to their desktop; as well as native IPv6 content on the wider Internet. The SP also sees the opportunity to perhaps recover v4 addresses from legacy plant (dialup or whatever), and use these to provide an up-sell to a 'static IPv4 /32' if you want a real address. The product evolution here is likely to be that you pay a premium for a real v4 address where the SP can allocate it, and a reduced amount for NAPT v4 address. The CPE[1] must support 4-to-6 NAT-PT of some kind. There is no planned facility for 6-to-4 NAT-PT as any host which is IPv6 enabled should also be IPv4 enabled and can get access to exclusive v4 resource through the SP-NAPT in place. Allowing for all the legacy IPv4 only hosts that customers may run to access IPv6 resource through the CPE seems to be a suitable approach. This seems to be a reasonably pragmatic approach to the problem, but of course it requires the "big SP-NAPT" box and the development of a NAT-PT standard. aj. [1] For this case, the Service Provider dictates the CPE use and manages it. Using 240/4 for this "private IPv4 infrastructure" could well work as all devices are modern and SP controlled. [2] There is the possibility for NAT evolution here to support the concept of uPNP across network boundaries. This is somewhat dependent on being able to trust the CPE, but given [1] this is less of a problem. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_8DEB7_01C81552.C0C64520-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 23 05:13:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkFpm-0002nN-0X for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 05:13:58 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkFpf-0005m2-R7 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 05:13:57 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IkFjv-000COD-Hk for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:07:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IkFjs-000CO0-Rf for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:07:54 +0000 Received: from [163.117.140.35] ([163.117.140.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9N94WQW004777 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:04:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: References: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> <471A52DA.5050509@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <1AD396AB-80B2-431B-A634-85732E7384CC@muada.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Modified IPv6 to unmodified IPv4 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:07:29 +0200 To: james woodyatt X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 856eb5f76e7a34990d1d457d8e8e5b7f On 22-okt-2007, at 19:38, james woodyatt wrote: > There is one significant way that unmodified IPv4 applications will > never be able to manage communicating with IPv6-only peers, i.e. > when their peers store their translated IPv6 addresses in some > persistent storage, like a logfile or a web page or a report or > anything generally intended for offline automated analysis, and the > IPv4-only application needs to do that and finds that it can't cope > with its address being translated out of the IPv4 address family. True. However, the case that I find more interesting is that of IPv6-aware applications running on hosts that only have IPv4 connectivity. In that case, it's possible to address this scenario. For instance, when the application wants to talk to an IPv6 address, it can set up a session through a dual stack proxy. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 23 05:16:20 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkFs3-0005iU-VK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 05:16:19 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IkFs2-0005sK-P4 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 05:16:19 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IkFrV-000D53-MD for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:15:45 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [83.149.65.1] (helo=sequoia.muada.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IkFrS-000D4f-Uf for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:15:44 +0000 Received: from [163.117.140.35] ([163.117.140.35]) (authenticated bits=0) by sequoia.muada.com (8.13.3/8.13.3) with ESMTP id l9N9CYFF004906 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:12:35 +0200 (CEST) (envelope-from iljitsch@muada.com) In-Reply-To: <02e301c814f6$d819a9d0$3d3816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> References: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> <471A52DA.5050509@gmail.com> <02e301c814f6$d819a9d0$3d3816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v752.3) X-Priority: 3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <3876F471-1970-4BAC-A18A-A08D531830AF@muada.com> Cc: "Brian E Carpenter" , "IPv6 Operations" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Iljitsch van Beijnum Subject: Re: Modified IPv6 to unmodified IPv4 Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 11:15:31 +0200 To: Stephen Sprunk X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.752.3) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: bb8f917bb6b8da28fc948aeffb74aa17 On 22-okt-2007, at 23:42, Stephen Sprunk wrote: > The problem I think you're indirectly referring to is NAT > awareness, and most of the problem there is going to exist in v6 > with stateful firewalls even if we do manage to avoid creating a > NATv6 world. ALGs are simpler when you only have to inspect > packets, not mangle them, but they're not going away, and end hosts/ > apps can't get away from coping with administratively-imposed > reachability problems. NAT and stateful firewalling don't have the same effect on applications. In both cases, an ALG can make everything work for many applications if an ALG is available for the protocol in question and the control traffic isn't encrypted, and doesn't use options that the ALG doesn't understand. ALGs also require a control channel, so they don't address the situation where an application is simply listening for incoming sessions. Alternatively, applications can reach out to the NAT or firewall and receive information about the public address from the NAT and open up incoming ports on the NAT or firewall. There are two non-IETF protocols to do that for NAT and a whole bunch of IETF protocols to do this for (IPv4?) firewalls. The difference between the NAT and the firewall case is that in the NAT case, the application must know about the public address, while in the firewall case it only has to open up the port. Conceivably, this could be done automatically by the OS when a listening socket is created. But such a simple solution doesn't address all NAT issues. So the need to deal with firewalls doesn't mean it's a good idea to go ahead with NAT in IPv6, either explicitly or in the form of adopting an IPv6/IPv4 translation mechanism that exposes IPv6 applications to NAT. 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    "Whether nanotechnology had ever showed up or not, = electronics would have gotten there anyway," says Professor Saraswat. = For the past four decades, the number of transistors that can be put on = a chip, or equivalently, the number of information processing events = that can be done per chip, has doubled every twenty-two months; = concomitantly, the cost per processing event has dropped. Following this = trend called Moore's Law, microelectronics has steadily settled into = nanoelectronics in the past decade.Here's To Biology: Nature's Own = Nanomachines Dr. Steve Block, Biology and Applied PhysicsJust this = April, a large cross-departmental group of Stanford faculty was awarded = a multi-million dollar grant to take up such challenges and develop new = devices and technology for use in 3-D ICs. Chidsey, for instance, is one = of the researchers involved in integrating nanowire transistors into 3-D = circuits, which requires being able to position nanowires reliably and = accurately. With the development of 3-D ICs, you can expect all-in-one = MP3 player-telephone-digital camera-PDA devices the size of Star Trek = communicators to hit the shelves at Fry's within this decade.
    In = other applications of carbon nanotubes, Dai has Professor Michael = McGehee is developing cheap and efficient nanostructured solar = cells.















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    ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C8175C.B98BDC00-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Oct 26 00:09:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IlGWE-0006pV-2v for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Oct 2007 00:09:58 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IlGVz-0001cp-A1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Oct 2007 00:09:55 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IlGO9-0004T5-HO for v6ops-data@psg.com; Fri, 26 Oct 2007 04:01:37 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [67.15.124.176] (helo=rakhan.thetiger.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1IlGO6-0004Se-O2 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Oct 2007 04:01:36 +0000 Received: from rakhan.thetiger.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by rakhan.thetiger.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93B808A8651; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:14:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (davidm@localhost) by rakhan.thetiger.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11/Submit) with ESMTP id l9Q3ENJA027106; Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:14:24 -0500 X-Authentication-Warning: rakhan.thetiger.com: davidm owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 25 Oct 2007 22:14:23 -0500 (CDT) From: David Miles To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Cc: Nathan Ward , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Modified IPv6 to unmodified IPv4 In-Reply-To: <1444BBEF-3CE6-45B5-A7CF-3EBFA0D194F9@muada.com> Message-ID: References: <9DD1EC36-EBDF-49ED-A610-2EFC92166C2C@muada.com> <900A80B9-EC7C-4336-B322-B3FA112A70E7@daork.net> <1444BBEF-3CE6-45B5-A7CF-3EBFA0D194F9@muada.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: f4c2cf0bccc868e4cc88dace71fb3f44 Iljitsch, We have been taking a look at impacts of double NAPT and there is an interesting paper on P2P friendly NAPT from Bryan Ford, Pyda Srisuresh and Dan Kegal. Take a look at section 3.5 Peers Behind Multiple Levels of NAT. http://www.brynosaurus.com/pub/net/p2pnat/ I don't think anyone is suggesting IPv4 with NAPT is a IPv6 alternative, but more a complementary one that has become a necessity given how late we have left things. During the transition period to IPv6 there will be a mixture of IPv4-only, and IPv6-capable hosts - we are dealing with two distinct issues: The exhaustion of IPv4; and, the transition to IPv6. Implementing IPv6 in the provider network is comparitivly easy compared to changing all the clients to support it. Some fear that work to support continued IPv4 use will undermine the transition to IPv6 - the industry as a whole must move forward with one voice: IPv6 is the future, but we will not abandon IPv4 on D-day. Addressing Peer-to-Peer, provider NAPT and NAT-PT/NAT46 should be items we the industry take on. We can forsee these issues today, now we need to agree whether we sholud do something about them within the IETF. Regards, David Miles On Sat, 20 Oct 2007, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > On 19-okt-2007, at 13:32, Nathan Ward wrote: > >> It is unclear to me why one would not just deploy traditional IPv4 NAPT and >> regular IPv6 - it works with existing protocols, is significantly more >> simple, and end user hardware is (we are told) being worked on. > > The crucial difference is that in that case, the host must have IPv4 > connectivity. Although building a NATed IPv4 network would at first seem > easier or not much more difficult than building an IPv6 network with some > gateways, I think the latter is a better way forward, especially as we're > getting closer to running out of IPv4 addresses. As soon as ISPs start NATing > their customers, many people will be behind double NAT, which makes it > impossible to open up ports to make peer-to-peer protocols work through a > single layer of NAT. > > If the ISP hosts the IPv6-IPv4 gateways, then it's possible to have a clean, > routed path between the gateway and the end-user, even if a site has multiple > hosts, which pretty much requires NAT for SOHO sites for IPv4 today. > > Another advantage is that the gatewayed IPv4 connectivity and real IPv6 > connectivity go hand-in-hand so users always get both access to the legacy > IPv4 infrastructure and the new IPv6 infrastructure that (hopefully) allows > peer-to-peer applications and new protocols that would require an ALG with > NAT. With regular IPv4 NAT it's still an extra hurdle to get IPv6 in there so > large numbers of users will have to live with reduced transparency for some > time. > From Mun@stephaniemcd.com Fri Oct 26 03:49:26 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IlJwc-0004aS-UL for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Oct 2007 03:49:26 -0400 Received: from [60.51.215.94] (helo=51.60.in-addr.arpa.tm.net.my) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1IlJwZ-0007tG-TQ for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org; Fri, 26 Oct 2007 03:49:24 -0400 Received: by 10.132.196.150 with SMTP id oLJcVGPNucdeR; Fri, 26 Oct 2007 15:48:40 +0800 (GMT) Received: by 192.168.85.46 with SMTP id zwMbeceRcrIXkm.6449837364392; Fri, 26 Oct 2007 15:48:38 +0800 (GMT) Message-ID: <000501c817a4$9cb2ad50$5ed7333c@TRANS4> From: "Mun Goldlust" To: Subject: reils Date: Fri, 26 Oct 2007 15:48:35 +0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0005_01C817E7.AAD5ED50" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3028 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3028 X-Spam-Score: 2.1 (++) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C817E7.AAD5ED50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable hello you v6ops-archive she'll have more than enough to do once you make your cock huge http://www.sanysuji.com/ Mun Goldlust ------=_NextPart_000_0005_01C817E7.AAD5ED50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="big5" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l27sm8118051waf.2007.10.28.16.48.12 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 28 Oct 2007 16:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 12:48:10 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jari Arkko , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> In-Reply-To: <47110056.70400@piuha.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 52e1467c2184c31006318542db5614d5 On 2007-10-14 06:28, Jari Arkko wrote: > Thanks for this, Olaf. Indeed, we are considering follow-up work, > and understanding the scenarios & possible need for producing > a revised version of NAT-PT is on the Vancouver agenda (currently > planned to be a discussion in V6OPS, with protocol work to fall > out to an INT area WG). I realise this may be jumping the gun a bit, but since I won't be in Vancouver, here is a sketch of one possible direction. Brian -------- Original Message -------- Subject: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:20:01 -0400 From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Shimmed IPv4/IPv6 Address Network Translation Interface (SHANTI) Author(s) : B. Carpenter Filename : draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt Pages : 12 Date : 2007-10-28 There is a pragmatic need for a packet-level translation mechanism between IPv4 and IPv6, for scenarios where no other mode of IPv4 to IPv6 interworking is possible. The mechanism defined here uses a shim in both the translator and the IPv6 host to mitigate the problems introduced by stateless translation. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Oct 28 23:11:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImL2N-00064X-LW for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 28 Oct 2007 23:11:35 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImL2M-0001bo-8V for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Sun, 28 Oct 2007 23:11:35 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImKwt-000Acx-Rb for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 03:05:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [192.83.231.27] (helo=mail.internode.com.au) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImKwq-000AcR-L9 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 03:05:54 +0000 Received: from gizmo.internode.com.au (gizmo.internode.com.au [192.83.231.115]) by mail.internode.com.au (8.13.7/8.12.1) with ESMTP id l9T35ptr027259 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:35:51 +1030 (CST) Received: from gizmo.internode.com.au (localhost.internode.com.au [127.0.0.1]) by gizmo.internode.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9) with ESMTP id l9T35sp4098297 for ; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:35:54 +1030 (CST) (envelope-from newton@gizmo.internode.com.au) Received: (from newton@localhost) by gizmo.internode.com.au (8.12.9/8.12.9/Submit) id l9T35sFo098296 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:35:54 +1030 (CST) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:35:54 +1030 From: Mark Newton To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: SNMP MIB for IPv6 BGP Message-ID: <20071029030554.GA98053@internode.com.au> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i X-PGP-Key: http://www.on.net/~newton/pgpkey.txt X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on mail X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: d6b246023072368de71562c0ab503126 Hi. Has any work been done, either by IETF or Cisco, on an SNMP MIB for IPv6 BGP peers? My google-fu has produced some murmurings about ongoing work, but nothing definitive. Trying to teach our NMS to alert us to BGP-down events without needing it to ssh to routers to do "show bgp ipv6 summary". - mark -- Mark Newton Email: newton@internode.com.au (W) Network Engineer Email: newton@atdot.dotat.org (H) Internode Systems Pty Ltd Desk: +61-8-82282999 "Network Man" - Anagram of "Mark Newton" Mobile: +61-416-202-223 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 29 01:54:32 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImNa4-0005rl-Qv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 01:54:32 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImNZy-0001fP-EZ for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 01:54:28 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImNVw-000MT8-KG for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 05:50:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [193.94.160.1] (helo=netcore.fi) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImNVt-000MSg-SV for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 05:50:15 +0000 Received: from netcore.fi (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id l9T5nuR2000714; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:49:57 +0200 Received: from localhost (pekkas@localhost) by netcore.fi (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) with ESMTP id l9T5nsps000711; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:49:54 +0200 Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 07:49:54 +0200 (EET) From: Pekka Savola To: Mark Newton cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: SNMP MIB for IPv6 BGP In-Reply-To: <20071029030554.GA98053@internode.com.au> Message-ID: References: <20071029030554.GA98053@internode.com.au> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/4616/Sun Oct 28 19:25:58 2007 on otso.netcore.fi X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: ffa9dfbbe7cc58b3fa6b8ae3e57b0aa3 On Mon, 29 Oct 2007, Mark Newton wrote: > Has any work been done, either by IETF or Cisco, on an SNMP > MIB for IPv6 BGP peers? > > My google-fu has produced some murmurings about ongoing work, > but nothing definitive. > > Trying to teach our NMS to alert us to BGP-down events without > needing it to ssh to routers to do "show bgp ipv6 summary". Yes: http://tools.ietf.org/wg/idr/draft-ietf-idr-bgp4-mibv2/ The work has been discontinued due to lack of interest but recently there was an effort to bring it back on track by splitting the one gigantic MIB into smaller pieces. It has been at least partially implemented by some vendors. We use certain features (e.g., v6 BGP neighbor status) of it. The IDR WG is the right place to look for this. -- Pekka Savola "You each name yourselves king, yet the Netcore Oy kingdom bleeds." Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. 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Also consider the readability of the draft (your intro is very detailed) and adding a section about the placement of the translator? I'm afraid that we need to push the IPv6 component of your proposal much closer to the IPv4 host appreciating the dire situation with globally routable IPv4 addresses. As it stands SHANTI would most likely be deployed with both v6-host and translator in a closed administrative environment, but I'd like to consider the bigger challenge of these v6-only hosts communicating with v4-only hosts over a IPv6 Internet (rather than an IPv4 one). I'm not sure you were trying to take on something that big, but I thought I'd shoot the question through. I'm interested to hear your thoughts on IPv6-only hosts (as opposed to dual-stack hosts) during the IPv4-to-IPv6 transition period. The work I've been doing up till now has made a fundamental assumption that we would see only v4-only and dual-stack hosts, assuming that only post IPv4 shutdown would we see an emergence of IPv6-only devices. Finally, from my reading the usefulness of SHANTI is only where the IPv6-only host has an application that appreciates IPv4 parameters (port and address) or the translation itself. Do we expect application developers to widely cater for this scenario, or to make the assumption that "if IPv4 matters we should use the IPv4 stack"? Best Regards, -David Miles On 29/10/2007, at 10:48 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2007-10-14 06:28, Jari Arkko wrote: >> Thanks for this, Olaf. Indeed, we are considering follow-up work, >> and understanding the scenarios & possible need for producing >> a revised version of NAT-PT is on the Vancouver agenda (currently >> planned to be a discussion in V6OPS, with protocol work to fall >> out to an INT area WG). > > I realise this may be jumping the gun a bit, but since I won't be > in Vancouver, here is a sketch of one possible direction. > > Brian > > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt > Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:20:01 -0400 > From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org > Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > directories. > > Title : Shimmed IPv4/IPv6 Address Network Translation > Interface (SHANTI) > Author(s) : B. 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( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id n38sm13960699wag.2007.10.29.13.40.29 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 29 Oct 2007 13:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 09:40:26 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: David Miles CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 825e642946eda55cd9bc654a36dab8c2 On 2007-10-30 02:47, David Miles wrote: > Brian, > > In the introduction I'd suggest we add some words to clarify that the > scope of v4-to-v6 translation is not broadly "IPv4 to IPv6", but a > specific case where a IPv6-only host is modified (with the inclusion of > a shim and possibly DNS resolver changes) to allow it to leverage a > separate device (the translator) to access the IPv4 Internet. Sure, that's the scenario (or possibly "to access a residual fragment of the IPv4 Internet" at some much later stage). > Also > consider the readability of the draft (your intro is very detailed) and > adding a section about the placement of the translator? Agreed; this is a first cut rapidly transcribed from the whiteboard. > > I'm afraid that we need to push the IPv6 component of your proposal much > closer to the IPv4 host appreciating the dire situation with globally > routable IPv4 addresses. As it stands SHANTI would most likely be > deployed with both v6-host and translator in a closed administrative > environment, I don't think that is required, but it seems likely that a network wishing to support IPv6-only hosts would choose to deploy SHANTI translators at its edge. However, the reason that only standard IPv6 addresses are used is so that there are no topological restrictions on where the translators are placed. > but I'd like to consider the bigger challenge of these > v6-only hosts communicating with v4-only hosts over a IPv6 Internet > (rather than an IPv4 one). I'm not sure you were trying to take on > something that big, but I thought I'd shoot the question through. Well, in that case your translator, however it works, has to be close to the fragment of IPv4 that the v4-only host is attached to. That will apply even if the fragment is a single PPP link. I wouldn't recommend SHANTI for that, probably. > > I'm interested to hear your thoughts on IPv6-only hosts (as opposed to > dual-stack hosts) during the IPv4-to-IPv6 transition period. The work > I've been doing up till now has made a fundamental assumption that we > would see only v4-only and dual-stack hosts, assuming that only post > IPv4 shutdown would we see an emergence of IPv6-only devices. The IAB request specifically asks for a solution for IPv6-only hosts. It's long been my view that the primary coexistence strategy must be dual-stack, but I'm trying to answer the IAB's question. > > Finally, from my reading the usefulness of SHANTI is only where the > IPv6-only host has an application that appreciates IPv4 parameters (port > and address) or the translation itself. Do we expect application > developers to widely cater for this scenario, or to make the assumption > that "if IPv4 matters we should use the IPv4 stack"? No, SHANTI will work out of the box for any application that runs through a traditional NAT or NAPT without problems *and* has been upgraded to AF_INET6 sockets. However, applications that require an ALG with traditional NA(P)T will need to be tweaked, I think. The question is whether that overhead is justified to get rid of the problems of NAT-PT? Brian > > Best Regards, > > -David Miles > > On 29/10/2007, at 10:48 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> On 2007-10-14 06:28, Jari Arkko wrote: >>> Thanks for this, Olaf. Indeed, we are considering follow-up work, >>> and understanding the scenarios & possible need for producing >>> a revised version of NAT-PT is on the Vancouver agenda (currently >>> planned to be a discussion in V6OPS, with protocol work to fall >>> out to an INT area WG). >> >> I realise this may be jumping the gun a bit, but since I won't be >> in Vancouver, here is a sketch of one possible direction. >> >> Brian >> >> -------- Original Message -------- >> Subject: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt >> Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 18:20:01 -0400 >> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org >> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. >> >> Title : Shimmed IPv4/IPv6 Address Network Translation >> Interface (SHANTI) >> Author(s) : B. Carpenter >> Filename : draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt >> Pages : 12 >> Date : 2007-10-28 >> >> There is a pragmatic need for a packet-level translation mechanism >> between IPv4 and IPv6, for scenarios where no other mode of IPv4 to >> IPv6 interworking is possible. The mechanism defined here uses a >> shim in both the translator and the IPv6 host to mitigate the >> problems introduced by stateless translation. >> >> A URL for this Internet-Draft is: >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-shanti-00.txt >> > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Oct 29 18:59:40 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imda6-0006bB-Mz for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:59:40 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imda6-00065L-44 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:59:38 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImdVf-0005R5-DS for v6ops-data@psg.com; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:55:03 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [207.219.45.62] (helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImdVc-0005Q8-N6 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:55:02 +0000 Received: from briand-vpn.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.7.90]) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ImdVb-0006T8-3T; Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:54:59 -0400 Message-ID: <472664BF.4020709@ca.afilias.info> Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 18:54:55 -0400 From: Brian Dickson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: David Miles , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Follow-up work on NAT-PT References: <5FCD348C-5927-4F18-A002-0E3BF21ED5F4@NLnetLabs.nl> <47110056.70400@piuha.net> <47251FBA.9030507@gmail.com> <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4726453A.2030500@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: briand@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 31247fb3be228bb596db9127becad0bc Brian E Carpenter wrote: > The IAB request specifically asks for a solution for IPv6-only > hosts. It's long been my view that the primary coexistence strategy > must be dual-stack, but I'm trying to answer the IAB's question. > >> >> Finally, from my reading the usefulness of SHANTI is only where the >> IPv6-only host has an application that appreciates IPv4 parameters >> (port and address) or the translation itself. Do we expect >> application developers to widely cater for this scenario, or to make >> the assumption that "if IPv4 matters we should use the IPv4 stack"? > > No, SHANTI will work out of the box for any application that runs > through a traditional NAT or NAPT without problems *and* has been > upgraded to AF_INET6 sockets. However, applications that require > an ALG with traditional NA(P)T will need to be tweaked, I think. > The question is whether that overhead is justified to get rid of > the problems of NAT-PT? > > Brian I've been giving thoughts to some of the issues along similar lines. Here's what I've been thinking of, in terms of a solution space: Protocol translation that uses IPv6 as a transport, but doesn't do anything other than present IPv4 on an IPv6-only host. The way to describe it in shorthand would be: PT-4-6-4 On the IPv6-only host, add an IPv4 "thing". (interface/driver/whatever). There's some bootstrap issues regarding bringing up the IPv4 interface - let's defer those for now... When this IPv4 "thing" talks to another IPv4 host, it will be using IPv4 source/dest and src/dest ports. Do IPv4-to-IPv6 protocol translation - but now, the extra "twist" - embed the *port* in the IPv6 destination, *above* the IPv4 address. This lets us set up "generic" ALGs, based on covering aggregates for the "special" address space we use for the place where 6-back-to-4 happens. And, we can then set up ALGs on a per-port basis, which are more-specific addresses. And even more fine-grained port+IPv4 ALGs can be set up, e.g. when there is a need to do 4-6-4 for RFC 1918 space. Since the host sees IPv4 "natively", no DNS tricks are needed. There are even a few advanced tricks that can be accomplished, like reverse-port-mapping to request inbound port(s) and possibly inbound port+IPv4 address "reservation". Combined with dynamic DNS, it may be possible to extend the usefulness of a very small number of IPv4 addresses, to support a much larger of "servers" who need reserved ports, although possibly only intermittently. (Think SMTP for hosting, inbound with MX and relay.) The implementation of things like DHCP (for IPv4) use well-know IPv4 "broadcast" address destination 255.255.255.255. But, having an IPv6 host listen on that address, transmogrified by the mapping including port, means a specific IPv6 address can act as a DHCP server (or relay). NAT stuff built to handle this has an added advantage - the IPv4 client-side addresses can overlap, since the presumption is that all the hosts already have IPv6 - and can communicate via IPv6. So there would not be any need for support for "tromboned" traffic between pairs of hosts behind this 4-6-4-plus-NAT. The colliding addresses are disambituated in IPv4 by port (assigned by the NAT), and in the NAT back-end by IPv6 address. There are details to work out, of course. But I think it could be an interesting starting point, which by virtue of presenting an IPv4 interface to the client, avoids most of the NAT-PT issues. Oh, yeah, one other good thing - there is no requirement that the ALGs or NAT-PT exist on the same network, just that they be reachable via IPv6 natively. So, a small network could point their "ALG default" at an upstream, who then would handle all the NAT-PT stuff (presumably as either a value-add, paid, or bundled service) for access to the V4 Internet. 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Note that this is just one individual proposing a new policy, which is about the same thing as writing an individual submission draft in the IETF. Begin forwarded message: > From: Member Services > Date: 22 oktober 2007 17:23:21 GMT+02:00 > To: ppml@arin.net > Subject: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction > > ARIN received the following policy proposal. In accordance with the > ARIN > Internet Resource Policy Evaluation Process, the proposal is being > posted to the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (PPML) and being > placed on > ARIN's website. > > The ARIN Advisory Council (AC) will review this proposal at their next > regularly scheduled meeting. The AC may decide to: > > 1. Accept the proposal as a formal policy proposal as written. If > the > AC accepts the proposal, it will be posted as a formal policy proposal > to PPML and it will be presented at a Public Policy Meeting. > > 2. Postpone their decision regarding the proposal until the next > regularly scheduled AC meeting in order to work with the author. The > AC > will work with the author to clarify, combine or divide the > proposal. At > their following meeting the AC will accept or not accept the proposal. > > 3. Not accept the proposal. If the AC does not accept the proposal, > the AC will explain their decision. If a proposal is not accepted, > then > the author may elect to use the petition process to advance their > proposal. If the author elects not to petition or the petition fails, > then the proposal will be closed. > > The AC will assign shepherds in the near future. ARIN will provide the > names of the shepherds to the community via the PPML. > > In the meantime, the AC invites everyone to comment on this proposal > on > the PPML, particularly their support or non-support and the reasoning > behind their opinion. Such participation contributes to a thorough > vetting and provides important guidance to the AC in their > deliberations. > > The ARIN Internet Resource Policy Evaluation Process can be found at: > http://www.arin.net/policy/irpep.html > > Mailing list subscription information can be found at: > http://www.arin.net/mailing_lists/ > > Regards, > > Member Services > American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) > > > ## * ## > > > Policy Proposal Name: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction > > Author: Brian Dickson > > Proposal Version: 1 > > Submission Date: Oct 18, 2007 > > Proposal type: modify > > Policy term: permanent > > Policy statement: > > 6.5.4.1. Assignment address space size > > End-users are assigned an end site assignment from their LIR or ISP. > The > exact size of the assignment is a local decision for the LIR or ISP to > make, using a minimum value of a /120 (when only one subnet is > anticipated for the end site) up to the normal maximum of /48, > except in > cases of extra large end sites where a larger assignment can be > justified. > > The following guidelines may be useful (but they are only guidelines): > > * /120 for a very small customer with one subnet, using static > assignments or DHCPv6 > * /116 for a small customer with a few subnets, using static > assignments or DHCPv6 > * /112 for a medium size customer with a significant total number > of hosts and/or subnets, using static assignments and/or DHCPv6 > * /96 for large customers > * /80 for very large customers, or for customers using a proposed > modified version of V6-autoconf (which uses EUI-48 instead of EUI-64) > * /72 for customers with several subnets using modified V6- > autoconf > (which uses EUI-48 instead of EUI-64) > * /64 when it is known that one and only one subnet is needed, for > a customer that absolutely requires either traditional IPv6 > autoconfiguration, or IPv6 host Interface Identifier cryptographic > generation > * /60 for sites where a mix of IPv6-autoconfiguration and other > address assignment techiques are required > * /56 for very large sites > * /52 for very, very large sites > * /48 for extremely large sites > > For end sites to whom reverse DNS will be delegated, the LIR/ISP > should > consider making an assignment on a nibble (4-bit) boundary to simplify > reverse lookup delegation. > > Rationale: > > The intent is to provide more current guidance, to both ARIN members, > and to ARIN staff, based on available IPv6 technology, and for the > encouragement of efficient assignment of IPv6 address space. > > IPv6 supports numerous methods for address assignments to end nodes. > Those include autoconfiguration, static assignment, and DHCPv6. > Of those, only autoconfiguration requires use of /64 as the prefix > size. > > Efficient use of IPv6 space should discourage widespread use of /64's, > or for use of autoconfiguration as the sole justification for > allocations of large address space. > > In particular, the effective lifetime of PA assignments to ISPs/ > LIRs, is > largely a factor of internal aggregation, and the size of end > assignments. > > Rather than meeting ISP needs by assigning very large IPv6 PA > blocks, it > would be wiser to encourage assignments that to not significantly > use up > available PA space for the ISP, even for very large customers. > > The overall intent is to minimize the need for any PA recipient, to > return to ARIN for subsequent assignments, thus reducing the need for > additional globally routable prefixes using up slots in routers in the > DFZ - something that affects the long-term ability for all ISPs to > continue to scale in a cost-effective manner. > > Timetable for implementation: Immediate > > > > _______________________________________________ > PPML > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the > ARIN Public Policy > Mailing List (PPML@arin.net). > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/ppml Please contact the ARIN > Member Services > Help Desk at info@arin.net if you experience any issues. 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    http://hinehbio.com/ ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C81AF0.05C1EBD5-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 08:42:56 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImqQq-0000Ee-SO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:42:56 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImqQk-00018I-Iz for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:42:56 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImqL6-000Jad-5G for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:37:00 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [203.6.132.75] (helo=smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImqL2-000JaG-TX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:36:58 +0000 Received: from 219-90-163-11.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.163.11] helo=mail.nosense.org) by smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImqKy-000BMx-H7; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:06:52 +1030 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 7669DFC90; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:05:21 +1030 (CST) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:05:21 +1030 From: Mark Smith To: Iljitsch van Beijnum Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction Message-Id: <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net> <546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.5 (GTK+ 2.10.14; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 33cc095b503da4365ce57c727e553cf1 On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:31:10 +0100 Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > I thought this would be interesting reading for the working group. > I think the best thing to do is ignore it. If it gets any traction in ARIN, then we might have to do something. (I'm embarrassed to be listed in the acknowledgements section of the related draft, because it can imply I agree with it - and my position is the complete opposite - I'm even fairly strongly anti-/56.) > Note that this is just one individual proposing a new policy, which is > about the same thing as writing an individual submission draft in the > IETF. > > Begin forwarded message: > > > From: Member Services > > Date: 22 oktober 2007 17:23:21 GMT+02:00 > > To: ppml@arin.net > > Subject: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction > > > > ARIN received the following policy proposal. In accordance with the > > ARIN > > Internet Resource Policy Evaluation Process, the proposal is being > > posted to the ARIN Public Policy Mailing List (PPML) and being > > placed on > > ARIN's website. > > > > The ARIN Advisory Council (AC) will review this proposal at their next > > regularly scheduled meeting. The AC may decide to: > > > > 1. Accept the proposal as a formal policy proposal as written. If > > the > > AC accepts the proposal, it will be posted as a formal policy proposal > > to PPML and it will be presented at a Public Policy Meeting. > > > > 2. Postpone their decision regarding the proposal until the next > > regularly scheduled AC meeting in order to work with the author. The > > AC > > will work with the author to clarify, combine or divide the > > proposal. At > > their following meeting the AC will accept or not accept the proposal. > > > > 3. Not accept the proposal. If the AC does not accept the proposal, > > the AC will explain their decision. If a proposal is not accepted, > > then > > the author may elect to use the petition process to advance their > > proposal. If the author elects not to petition or the petition fails, > > then the proposal will be closed. > > > > The AC will assign shepherds in the near future. ARIN will provide the > > names of the shepherds to the community via the PPML. > > > > In the meantime, the AC invites everyone to comment on this proposal > > on > > the PPML, particularly their support or non-support and the reasoning > > behind their opinion. Such participation contributes to a thorough > > vetting and provides important guidance to the AC in their > > deliberations. > > > > The ARIN Internet Resource Policy Evaluation Process can be found at: > > http://www.arin.net/policy/irpep.html > > > > Mailing list subscription information can be found at: > > http://www.arin.net/mailing_lists/ > > > > Regards, > > > > Member Services > > American Registry for Internet Numbers (ARIN) > > > > > > ## * ## > > > > > > Policy Proposal Name: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction > > > > Author: Brian Dickson > > > > Proposal Version: 1 > > > > Submission Date: Oct 18, 2007 > > > > Proposal type: modify > > > > Policy term: permanent > > > > Policy statement: > > > > 6.5.4.1. Assignment address space size > > > > End-users are assigned an end site assignment from their LIR or ISP. > > The > > exact size of the assignment is a local decision for the LIR or ISP to > > make, using a minimum value of a /120 (when only one subnet is > > anticipated for the end site) up to the normal maximum of /48, > > except in > > cases of extra large end sites where a larger assignment can be > > justified. > > > > The following guidelines may be useful (but they are only guidelines): > > > > * /120 for a very small customer with one subnet, using static > > assignments or DHCPv6 > > * /116 for a small customer with a few subnets, using static > > assignments or DHCPv6 > > * /112 for a medium size customer with a significant total number > > of hosts and/or subnets, using static assignments and/or DHCPv6 > > * /96 for large customers > > * /80 for very large customers, or for customers using a proposed > > modified version of V6-autoconf (which uses EUI-48 instead of EUI-64) > > * /72 for customers with several subnets using modified V6- > > autoconf > > (which uses EUI-48 instead of EUI-64) > > * /64 when it is known that one and only one subnet is needed, for > > a customer that absolutely requires either traditional IPv6 > > autoconfiguration, or IPv6 host Interface Identifier cryptographic > > generation > > * /60 for sites where a mix of IPv6-autoconfiguration and other > > address assignment techiques are required > > * /56 for very large sites > > * /52 for very, very large sites > > * /48 for extremely large sites > > > > For end sites to whom reverse DNS will be delegated, the LIR/ISP > > should > > consider making an assignment on a nibble (4-bit) boundary to simplify > > reverse lookup delegation. > > > > Rationale: > > > > The intent is to provide more current guidance, to both ARIN members, > > and to ARIN staff, based on available IPv6 technology, and for the > > encouragement of efficient assignment of IPv6 address space. > > > > IPv6 supports numerous methods for address assignments to end nodes. > > Those include autoconfiguration, static assignment, and DHCPv6. > > Of those, only autoconfiguration requires use of /64 as the prefix > > size. > > > > Efficient use of IPv6 space should discourage widespread use of /64's, > > or for use of autoconfiguration as the sole justification for > > allocations of large address space. > > > > In particular, the effective lifetime of PA assignments to ISPs/ > > LIRs, is > > largely a factor of internal aggregation, and the size of end > > assignments. > > > > Rather than meeting ISP needs by assigning very large IPv6 PA > > blocks, it > > would be wiser to encourage assignments that to not significantly > > use up > > available PA space for the ISP, even for very large customers. > > > > The overall intent is to minimize the need for any PA recipient, to > > return to ARIN for subsequent assignments, thus reducing the need for > > additional globally routable prefixes using up slots in routers in the > > DFZ - something that affects the long-term ability for all ISPs to > > continue to scale in a cost-effective manner. > > > > Timetable for implementation: Immediate > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > PPML > > You are receiving this message because you are subscribed to the > > ARIN Public Policy > > Mailing List (PPML@arin.net). > > Unsubscribe or manage your mailing list subscription at: > > http://lists.arin.net/mailman/listinfo/ppml Please contact the ARIN > > Member Services > > Help Desk at info@arin.net if you experience any issues. > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 08:54:10 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imqbi-0002By-4E for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:54:10 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imqbg-0001fm-IA for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 08:54:10 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImqaZ-000Kzw-IL for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:52:59 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [194.1.163.39] (helo=abaddon.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImqaW-000KzS-RL for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:52:58 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2] (spaghetti.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by abaddon.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 909FA40200E; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:52:54 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47272926.8010901@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:52:54 +0000 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070728 Thunderbird/2.0.0.6 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Smith CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations , ARIN People Posting Mailing List Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net> <546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigC6EABA4799E79E45DBA41CEB" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on abaddon.unfix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b7b9551d71acde901886cc48bfc088a6 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigC6EABA4799E79E45DBA41CEB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mark Smith wrote: > Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: >=20 >> I thought this would be interesting reading for the working group. >> >=20 > I think the best thing to do is ignore it. If it gets any traction in > ARIN, then we might have to do something. >=20 > (I'm embarrassed to be listed in the acknowledgements section of the > related draft, because it can imply I agree with it - and my position i= s > the complete opposite - I'm even fairly strongly anti-/56.) And the even funnier portion of that draft is that he (Brian Dickson) is basically asking the IETF (first, but there it was already heavily commented on in a negative way), now the RIRs to change the policies they have in place. He basically wants to change the lower /64 and enable a different EUI-64 concept (thus not remove it, which would really be silly). The main reason he has for this is that ISP's are now getting /32's and when they *misplan* their address space they would go back to the RIR and get more address space, which, according to him, would lead to the point that multiple de-aggregated prefixes would leak into the routing tables. Now the fun part of this, these 5 de-aggregated blocks which where just allocated by ARIN to a certain company called Affilias, the same company that he is working for, is using his email address from and which name is also on the draft: 2001:500:16::/47 2001:500:18::/45 2001:500:20::/45 2001:500:28::/46 2001:500:2c::/48 So one has to wonder, if they already got their own de-aggregated prefixes, why do they want to block others from doing so. If it would happen in the first place that is, remember that a /32 actually comes out of a reserved block of afaik a /29, as such those blocks can grow without any problems and de-aggregation. Any ISP who needs more than that definitely has grown a lot or have really misplanned how much space they will need. Most ISPs will do fine with a /64 though. As for the draft/proposal itself: why try to move the bits on the right side (the /64 portion) when ISPs can already shove the bits on the left side by simply justifying more address space? A proposal for changing the /48 boundary for *home users* to /56 though might at a certain point be a good idea. Companies should be getting a /48 IMHO. Greets, Jeroen --------------enigC6EABA4799E79E45DBA41CEB Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkcnKSYuFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58I/jJAJ9WUP2WkGHpf33fFLsl8HIsyiyo PgCePmX4cwTG3zGhK2MnEDS9hXTbkvQ= =9Cnw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigC6EABA4799E79E45DBA41CEB-- From fastin-482@microsoft.com Tue Oct 30 10:04:05 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImrhN-00047R-VM for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:04:05 -0400 Received: from [24.179.14.182] (helo=unknown.al.charter.com) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImrhL-00054a-IW for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:04:05 -0400 Received: from [24.179.14.182] by maila.microsoft.com; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:13:32 +0900 Message-ID: <01c81b4a$7d3a6d10$b60eb318@fastin-482> From: "Wade Sneed" To: Subject: Banking Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:13:32 +0900 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.2173.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.2173.0 X-Spam-Score: 0.1 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 7bac9cb154eb5790ae3b2913587a40de Its all started up. Company = Dynamic Media Holdin [-=D`M`H`N.PK-=] Mondays gain +0.05 (100.00%) And on Friday Close was .05 and on monday it jumped to .10 and on tuesday it targetted to be .20 can check the volumes, 101,000 and 260,000. This thing is flying up. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 11:02:54 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImscI-000486-El for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:02:54 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImscH-0007WA-5L for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:02:54 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImsYI-000K18-KZ for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:58:46 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [207.219.45.62] (helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImsYF-000Jzf-2J for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:58:44 +0000 Received: from briand-vpn.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.7.90]) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ImsY4-0007XH-L1; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:58:32 -0400 Message-ID: <47274694.5010300@ca.afilias.info> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 10:58:28 -0400 From: Brian Dickson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Massar CC: Mark Smith , Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations , ARIN People Posting Mailing List Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net> <546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <47272926.8010901@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <47272926.8010901@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: briand@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 4b7d60495f1a7f2e853e8cbae7e6dbfc Jeroen Massar wrote: > Now the fun part of this, these 5 de-aggregated blocks which where just > allocated by ARIN to a certain company called Affilias, the same company > (Presumably you meant to spell it "Afilias"...) > that he is working for, is using his email address from and which name > is also on the draft: > > 2001:500:16::/47 > 2001:500:18::/45 > 2001:500:20::/45 > 2001:500:28::/46 > 2001:500:2c::/48 > > Uh, Jeroen, the affiliation with companies, as you well know, is informative only. Pointing to what employers do when regarding proposals, is *way* off base, in the realm of ad-hominem attacks - something specifically against the mailing list charter. *However*, since you bring up the question: These are used specifically, and explicitly, for DNS anycast services for Afilias, as operator of numerous TLDs (Top Level Domains), such as ".org", ".info", ".mobi", ".aero", ".asia", etc... If you had bothered to look at the registrations, or IRR, or anywhere, that would be obvious. Even the web site www.afilias.info, makes it very clear we do DNS registries. E.g. Take a look at the *previous* ARIN assignment: mail:bind-9.4.1 (bash)$ whois -h whois.arin.net 2001:500:e:: OrgName: Afilias Canada, Corp. OrgID: ACC-308 Address: 4141 Yonge Street Address: Suite 204 City: Toronto StateProv: ON PostalCode: M2P-2A8 Country: CA NetRange: 2001:0500:0006:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000 - 2001:0500:000F:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF:FFFF CIDR: 2001:0500:0006:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000/47, 2001:0500:0008:0000:0000:0000:0000:0000/45 NetName: AFILIAS-NET2 NetHandle: NET6-2001-500-6-1 Parent: NET6-2001-400-0 NetType: Direct Assignment NameServer: NS1.AMS1.AFILIAS-NST.INFO NameServer: NS1.MIA1.AFILIAS-NST.INFO NameServer: NS1.SEA1.AFILIAS-NST.INFO NameServer: NS1.YYZ1.AFILIAS-NST.INFO Comment: RegDate: 2006-10-19 Updated: 2007-09-26 RAbuseHandle: JAB328-ARIN RAbuseName: Abley, Joe RAbusePhone: +1-519-670-9327 RAbuseEmail: jabley@ca.afilias.info RNOCHandle: JAB328-ARIN RNOCName: Abley, Joe RNOCPhone: +1-519-670-9327 RNOCEmail: jabley@ca.afilias.info RTechHandle: JAB328-ARIN RTechName: Abley, Joe RTechPhone: +1-519-670-9327 RTechEmail: jabley@ca.afilias.info OrgTechHandle: JAB328-ARIN OrgTechName: Abley, Joe OrgTechPhone: +1-519-670-9327 OrgTechEmail: jabley@ca.afilias.info # ARIN WHOIS database, last updated 2007-10-29 19:10 # Enter ? for additional hints on searching ARIN's WHOIS database. mail:bind-9.4.1 (bash)$ whois -h whois.ra.net 2001:500:e:: route6: 2001:500:E::/48 descr: Afilias Canada, Corp. origin: AS12041 mnt-by: MAINT-AFILIAS changed: jabley@ca.afilias.info 20061109 source: RIPE mail:bind-9.4.1 (bash)$ whois -h whois.ra.net AS12041 aut-num: AS12041 as-name: AFILIAS-NST descr: Afilias Limited descr: ------------------------------------------ descr: Prefixes announced from this origin AS are descr: anycast from several places. See RFC 4787. descr: ------------------------------------------ admin-c: JA856-RIPE tech-c: JA856-RIPE export: to AS12041:AS-TRANSIT announce AS12041:AS-AFILIAS export: to AS12041:AS-PEERS announce AS12041:AS-AFILIAS export: to AS112 announce ANY import: from AS12041:AS-TRANSIT accept ANY import: from AS12041:AS-PEERS accept AS12041:AS-SET:PeerAS import: from AS112 accept AS112 mnt-by: MAINT-AFILIAS changed: jabley@ca.afilias.info 20070921 changed: jabley@ca.afilias.info 20070922 source: RIPE These are all Direct Assignments, and are anycast for DNS services. It even says so right there. > So one has to wonder, if they already got their own de-aggregated > prefixes, why do they want to block others from doing so. > > Why do you interpret "let's all avoid polluting the DFZ" to mean "If you see someone else polluting, it is okay to pollute"? We (Afilias) have /48's as direct assignments, specifically because each DNS TLD needs to operate independently. And even though we only use a single IP address from the anycast blocks, the smallest direct assignment possible under ARIN policy is a /48. Clearly, root servers and TLD servers need to be globally reachable. (*Those* router slots are an example of very good return on the usage, IMHO. The Internet is not usable without them.) > If it would happen in the first place that is, remember that a /32 > actually comes out of a reserved block of afaik a /29, as such those > blocks can grow without any problems and de-aggregation. Any ISP who > needs more than that definitely has grown a lot or have really > misplanned how much space they will need. Most ISPs will do fine with a > /64 though. > > The whole point of my proposal at ARIN, is actually orthogonal to the IETF proposal, although anchored from the same rationale: Let's adopt policies and IPv6 implementations, which ensure as long a life for IPv6, at as low an operational cost as is practical, for as long as possible. The initial "growth" curve for IPv6 won't be a true growth curve, it will be an adoption curve. It will have the same shape as that of a disease affecting a population: the rate of adoption will be N(x)(1-x) where N is a scaling factor, and x is the percentage of the networks who are IPv6. Once the vast majority of networks have IPv6 deployed, the curve *should* flatten out to a rate very close to zero. The question is, after *that* point, the real growth curve will show up. Wouldn't it be better to ensure that the rate of router slot consumption, is low enough to match up with natural router amortization and replacement periods (3-5 years) instead of causing another round of ISP bankruptcies? > As for the draft/proposal itself: why try to move the bits on the right > side (the /64 portion) when ISPs can already shove the bits on the left > side by simply justifying more address space? > > More address space (by getting new PA blocks) means more router slots being eaten. Better allocation policies means no need for router slots being eaten. And, if you look in the details of the IETF proposal, there are examples of benefits of scaling when internal aggregation is not only possible (at all), but done well - internal router slots get used in a very conservative fashion, even for the very biggest of ISPs. Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 11:29:28 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imt20-0002r0-O3 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:29:28 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imt1y-0008W0-KT for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:29:28 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Imt0H-0006lE-Ri for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:27:41 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [194.1.163.39] (helo=abaddon.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Imt0D-0006jc-VX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:27:39 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2] (spaghetti.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by abaddon.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A37F35A522; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:27:35 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47274D67.4000502@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:27:35 +0000 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070728 Thunderbird/2.0.0.6 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Dickson CC: Mark Smith , Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations , ARIN People Posting Mailing List Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net> <546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <47272926.8010901@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <47274694.5010300@ca.afilias.info> In-Reply-To: <47274694.5010300@ca.afilias.info> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enigD88F77463A66338D3160F192" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on abaddon.unfix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: b84f8c8fba0e1389e5eb998b64078964 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enigD88F77463A66338D3160F192 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian Dickson wrote: > Jeroen Massar wrote: >> Now the fun part of this, these 5 de-aggregated blocks which where jus= t >> allocated by ARIN to a certain company called Affilias, the same compa= ny >> =20 > (Presumably you meant to spell it "Afilias"...) >> that he is working for, is using his email address from and which name= >> is also on the draft: >> >> 2001:500:16::/47 >> 2001:500:18::/45 >> 2001:500:20::/45 >> 2001:500:28::/46 >> 2001:500:2c::/48 >> >> =20 > Uh, Jeroen, the affiliation with companies, as you well know, is > informative only. If you don't want to be seen as speaking as your company then don't use your companies email address and also do not state your company affiliation in the documents you submit. Clearly you do seem to answer for that same company without taking of hats as such the only conclusion that I can make is that you are actually still speaking for that company. I really can't see it any differently. > Pointing to what employers do when regarding proposals, is *way* off > base, in the realm of ad-hominem attacks - something specifically > against the mailing list charter. Why is that off-base? It clearly shows that not even your own company supports your proposal. Also where else would one raise that issue? As for calling everything which is a argument against your proposals "ad-hominem" attacks, please try to come up with something else. I know it is fun to try and discredit people, but that really won't scare me off in any way. That I am raising this issue directly to you should be seen as being nice from your end. As a lot of other people are also saying similar things but are not able to say so. I am not coming forward as any company, I am coming forward as an individual user of the internet and I have huge concerns with what you are trying to propose and what you are actually doing yourself/company. > *However*, since you bring up the question: >=20 > These are used specifically, and explicitly, for DNS anycast services > for Afilias, as operator > of numerous TLDs (Top Level Domains), such as ".org", ".info", ".mobi",= > ".aero", ".asia", etc... Thus you are advocating on one side (according to your private opinion while pushing the name of your company) that companies should only get a small amount of address space (eg a /48) and only provide a /120 to end user while your company burns through a /47, 2x /45, a /46 and a /48? And that because you host some nameservers and are going to anycast those? If you are going to anycast them, why do you need more than a single /48? Now if you where really trying to make a good stance on your proposed changes with which you are requesting to change how IPv6 works in every host around the world, you might want to start working on it a little bit closer at home. Also, if you are really trying to propose those changes to the various communities and are set on pushing them through and lowering the amount of routes in the routing tables, why did you not ask for a single /128 as that is what you need for that purpose, nothing more, nothing less. > If you had bothered to look at the registrations, or IRR, or anywhere, > that would be obvious. As you clearly do not know I am one of the few people who look at every registration made. And they are not in any IRR yet, not at least in the ones I know of, thus can you care to share which one it actually is in? They also only just now popped up in the stats file thus finding them "anywhere else" is not possible. > Even the web site www.afilias.info, makes it very clear we do DNS > registries. And? There are a lot of companies doing exactly that. Still they only requested a single /48 for that or are using PA space. > E.g. Take a look at the *previous* ARIN assignment: [..] Again, why do you need so many disjunct blocks? Especially in the light that your draft mentions that it is meant to lower the amount of routes that other companies will be announcing. You do expect that a huge ISP will only announce one single /20 and thus receives all their traffic in that one spot, but for your own purposes suddenly you are special and you are going to announce separate prefixes?= >> So one has to wonder, if they already got their own de-aggregated >> prefixes, why do they want to block others from doing so. >> >> =20 > Why do you interpret "let's all avoid polluting the DFZ" to mean "If yo= u > see someone else polluting, it is okay to pollute"? I never stated that anywhere. I wonder why you think I stated that. But just in case you do not want to read what I write, I'll state it again: Why are you proposing that ISP's should have only one single block and instead of them asking for one huge prefix have the end-user receive a lot less space, this while you are requesting several large blocks, are going to announce those blocks separately and are most likely only going to use a few number of IP addresses in those blocks? See the big problem with what you are proposing and what you are actually doing? But as you can't seem to agree with yourself on your own statements, it is not so odd that you can't seem to understand what I am stating. > We (Afilias) have /48's as direct assignments, specifically because eac= h > DNS TLD needs to operate independently. And a lot of companies will, at one point, want to have separate blocks for similar reasons. But your draft goes against this. And clearly you don't even agree with yourself. For a nice technical question. Will those blocks you are going to announce all be announced over physically different mediums or are you going to announce them over the same paths? If it is the latter, then why again did you request multiple blocks and are you going to pollute the DFZ with that? > And even though we only use a single IP address from the anycast blocks= , > the smallest direct assignment possible under ARIN policy is a /48. And thus you request and receive: 2001:500:16::/47 2001:500:18::/45 2001:500:20::/45 2001:500:28::/46 2001:500:2c::/48 Except for the latter one, they are all larger than a single /48. Can you elaborate on that? Are you still going to stick a single box in that huge /48? If you are so confident about the proposed /120 for home user, why not request a /120 for your DNS servers? > Clearly, root servers and TLD servers need to be globally reachable. > > (*Those* router slots are an example of very good return on the usage, > IMHO. The Internet is not usable without them.) A lot of people can live without .cn but would require google.com/cnn.com/playboy.com/kink.com to work. As such do these sites then suddenly also require special treatment because they are unusable otherwise? Also, I require my own private home site to be globally reachable. As such, can I also get a /48 + router slot for that? See the issue you are trying to debate while not keeping up on that same issue yourself? [..] > Wouldn't it be better to ensure that the rate of router slot > consumption, is low enough to match up > with natural router amortization and replacement periods (3-5 years) > instead of causing another > round of ISP bankruptcies? Why not start doing the lower router slot consumption rate with yourself or at least trying to convince your own company to do so? >> As for the draft/proposal itself: why try to move the bits on the righ= t >> side (the /64 portion) when ISPs can already shove the bits on the lef= t >> side by simply justifying more address space? >> >> =20 > More address space (by getting new PA blocks) means more router slots > being eaten. You clearly do not understand the current way that blocks are being allocated. They justify address space need as predicted for several years in the future, and they have space to grow on the RIR side. As such when the do run out of a /32 they can grow it to a /29. One last thing to summarize it all: Eat your own dog food. Greets, Jeroen --------------enigD88F77463A66338D3160F192 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkcnTWcuFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58IwXaAJ0UTVKEdumsHynmSoDjECFkwFcn nQCeK/gIJfL51OnCtX2sOWOb4AiiIw0= =tWz+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enigD88F77463A66338D3160F192-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 12:14:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imtk2-0003PE-Mv for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:14:58 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imtk1-0001mq-EF for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:14:58 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Imtfw-000Fn6-ES for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:10:44 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [207.219.45.62] (helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Imtft-000FmT-K3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:10:43 +0000 Received: from briand-vpn.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.7.90]) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1Imtfk-00020D-Bh; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:10:32 -0400 Message-ID: <47275773.7080706@ca.afilias.info> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:10:27 -0400 From: Brian Dickson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Massar CC: Mark Smith , Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations , ARIN People Posting Mailing List Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net> <546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <47272926.8010901@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <47274694.5010300@ca.afilias.info> <47274D67.4000502@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <47274D67.4000502@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: briand@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 827a2a57ca7ab0837847220f447e8d56 Jeroen Massar wrote: > I am not coming forward as any > company, I am coming forward as an individual user of the internet and I > have huge concerns with what you are trying to propose and what you are > actually doing yourself/company. > > I do not care what you think of what I am doing, or what my employer is doing. Period. However, you are saying you have "huge concerns with what I am trying to propose". Would you care to instantiate those concerns, and elaborate on why you think they are a problem? >> *However*, since you bring up the question: >> >> These are used specifically, and explicitly, for DNS anycast services >> for Afilias, as operator >> of numerous TLDs (Top Level Domains), such as ".org", ".info", ".mobi", >> ".aero", ".asia", etc... >> > > Thus you are advocating on one side (according to your private opinion > while pushing the name of your company) that companies should only get a > small amount of address space (eg a /48) and only provide a /120 to end > user while your company burns through a /47, 2x /45, a /46 and a /48? > > I am advocating policies applicable only to PA space. PA space is blocks given to ISPs to assign to their customers. PI space (direct assignments by RIRs) are not affected by my proposals. We use /48's because they are announced directly to the DFZ, and the following are (IMHO) applicable: - The smallest PI block assigned by RIRs is /48 - PA blocks are intended to be announced only as the PA block - deaggregating PA blocks is at best naive and at worst anti-social - multihomed networks who are sufficiently justified in getting PI blocks (by whatever rationale is generally accepted), *should* use PA or PI blocks > And that because you host some nameservers and are going to anycast > those? If you are going to anycast them, why do you need more than a > single /48? > > Because each TLD needs to be anycast from a topologically unique *set* of servers. If you have two TLDs whose topology of anycast is different, they must, by definition of anycast, have unique prefixes. We use unique prefixes for each TLD or country-code TLD (such as .ag, .mn, .in, etc.) as well as the afore-mentioned three- and four-letter TLDs. > You do expect that a huge ISP will only announce one single /20 and thus > receives all their traffic in that one spot, but for your own purposes > suddenly you are special and you are going to announce separate prefixes? > > Yes. Just the way root servers are special. All 13 of them. Anycast in a few hundred locations. There is one "root". Each of those 13 instances of "root" are anycast, and use one /48. There is more than one TLD, many more than one. Each of *those* need at *least* two /48's, since the minimum number of nameservers for any zone is two. And yes, root servers and TLD servers are *very* special. They are very much *not* DNS hosting. (I humbly suggest you review the archives of dnsop). > But just in case you do not want to read what I write, I'll state it > again: Why are you proposing that ISP's should have only one single > block and instead of them asking for one huge prefix have the end-user > receive a lot less space, this while you are requesting several large > blocks, are going to announce those blocks separately and are most > likely only going to use a few number of IP addresses in those blocks? > > See the big problem with what you are proposing and what you are > actually doing? > I see that you can't make the distinction between PA and PI blocks. The reason for suggesting policies where smaller allocations to end sites is done in PA space, is specifically because nobody knows who will be a lot bigger in 5 or 10 years. We know who is big now. We don't know who (of all the ISPs that exist, or will be started in the next 5-10 years) will be big later. The flaw in the logic of "give a huge prefix to large ISPs now" is that it presumes that only currently-large ISPs will use up lots of allocations. Even if it may be true, we don't know for sure that it will be true. > For a nice technical question. Will those blocks you are going to > announce all be announced over physically different mediums or are you > going to announce them over the same paths? If it is the latter, then > why again did you request multiple blocks and are you going to pollute > the DFZ with that? > > Different mediums. There will be overlap by site, but definitely, and by design, not 100%. It is also fluid, changing as circumstances require, and on a per-prefix (i.e. per TLD) basis. >> And even though we only use a single IP address from the anycast blocks, >> the smallest direct assignment possible under ARIN policy is a /48. >> > > And thus you request and receive: > > 2001:500:16::/47 > 2001:500:18::/45 > 2001:500:20::/45 > 2001:500:28::/46 > 2001:500:2c::/48 > > Except for the latter one, they are all larger than a single /48. Can > you elaborate on that? Are you still going to stick a single box in that > huge /48? > > ARIN is allocating blocks all at one time. It is more convenient for ARIN to handle the allocations as a "set". These are in fact all used (and registered) as discrete /48's. > If you are so confident about the proposed /120 for home user, why not > request a /120 for your DNS servers? > > PI direct assignments are not available as /120 (currently). If they were, that would be what we request. (Trust me, we do not need more than that.) The size of PI allocations, however, is not an issue at all. A PI block uses one router slot, without any consideration of its size. The only issue with PA blocks is the fact that they are reassigned, and consumed, in an unpredictable fashion. Companies doing internal stuff, whether they get a reassignment *from* a PA block, or via a PI block, generally have much more predictable usage. > One last thing to summarize it all: Eat your own dog food. > How do you know I have dogs? I do - and feed them very well. They get only the best, and yes, I do share some of what they get. Filet mignon, or chateau-briand on occassion. :-) Brian D From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 12:43:22 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImuBW-0004xc-AR for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:43:22 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImuBT-0002g4-4I for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:43:20 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Imu9q-000IkD-E2 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:41:38 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, STOX_REPLY_TYPE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [65.67.187.82] (helo=defiant.dfw.nostrum.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Imu9n-000Ijo-HU for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:41:37 +0000 Received: from ssprunkxp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by defiant.dfw.nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id l9UGetBR030077; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:40:57 -0500 Message-ID: <008c01c81b13$a31fadb0$473816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> From: "Stephen Sprunk" To: "Mark Smith" , "Iljitsch van Beijnum" Cc: "IPv6 Operations" References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net><546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 11:39:28 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/4639/Tue Oct 30 11:08:51 2007 on defiant.dfw.nostrum.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 Thus spake "Mark Smith" > On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:31:10 +0100 > Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: >> I thought this would be interesting reading for the working group. > > I think the best thing to do is ignore it. If it gets any traction in > ARIN, then we might have to do something. It doesn't appear to have much support at the present time. OTOH, those of us active in the ARIN community would appreciate pointers to RFCs that say this idea is or isn't valid so that we have as much guidance from the IETF as possible. So far, we've unearthed a bunch of RFCs that make recommendations, many of which obsolete or contradict each other and none of which seem to give absolute rules. This was, I believe, the motivation for Michael Dillon's recent message with the subject "An example of what is wrong with the IETF's IPv6 documentation". It's hard for the RIRs to figure out what exactly what the IETF's authoritative direction is, and we do try to follow that when it makes reasonable sense. > (I'm embarrassed to be listed in the acknowledgements section of the > related draft, because it can imply I agree with it - and my position is > the complete opposite - I'm even fairly strongly anti-/56.) If you object to it, please ask the author to remove you. I agree that an acknowledgement implies support; a reference would not. S Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 12:53:12 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImuL2-0008WB-LX for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:53:12 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImuL1-000343-71 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:53:12 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImuJn-000Jlw-Fl for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:51:55 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [194.1.163.39] (helo=abaddon.unfix.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImuJk-000JlV-70 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:51:54 +0000 Received: from [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2] (spaghetti.unfix.org [IPv6:2001:770:100:9e::2]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: jeroen) by abaddon.unfix.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E4BA40200E; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:51:47 +0100 (CET) Message-ID: <47276123.7020702@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:51:47 +0000 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070728 Thunderbird/2.0.0.6 Mnenhy/0.7.5.666 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian Dickson CC: Mark Smith , Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations , ARIN People Posting Mailing List Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net> <546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <47272926.8010901@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <47274694.5010300@ca.afilias.info> <47274D67.4000502@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <47275773.7080706@ca.afilias.info> In-Reply-To: <47275773.7080706@ca.afilias.info> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.5 OpenPGP: id=333E7C23 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------enig2EBD9C079E86398D35852A2D" X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on abaddon.unfix.org X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -3.7 (---) X-Scan-Signature: a1dc446dc7ac353b90b60743d0e479e3 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 2440 and 3156) --------------enig2EBD9C079E86398D35852A2D Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brian Dickson wrote: > Jeroen Massar wrote: >> I am not coming forward as any >> company, I am coming forward as an individual user of the internet and= I >> have huge concerns with what you are trying to propose and what you ar= e >> actually doing yourself/company. >> >> =20 > I do not care what you think of what I am doing, or what my employer is= > doing. > Period. That you don't care actually about doing one thing yourself (PI-holders) while trying to restrict what others do (PA-holders) is apparent. You do realize that the PA-holders are the ones who are already being nice to the routing table slots by requesting one big block and thus only taking up one slot. While the PI holders are the ones requesting small blocks do you? > However, you are saying you have "huge concerns with what I am trying t= o > propose". >=20 > Would you care to instantiate those concerns, and elaborate on why you > think they are a problem? I've already gone into detail about this on the IETF list. Clearly you already forgotten about those. I can only assume that has to do with your no-care factor. [..] > I am advocating policies applicable only to PA space. > PA space is blocks given to ISPs to assign to their customers. Who are thus already aggregating all the blocks for their several millions of customers and end-users. > PI space (direct assignments by RIRs) are not affected by my proposals.= Because those people are already special you would say? And thus they need to be more special? > We use /48's because they are announced directly to the DFZ, and the > following are (IMHO) applicable: What about that those 2x /45, that /47 and that /46 you have now? Are you going to announce those as /48's? > - The smallest PI block assigned by RIRs is /48 The main reason is because a /48 is considered to be a single site. You are apparently proposing to change this boundary to a /120 for the PA blocks that are being allocated by ISPs to their users. > - PA blocks are intended to be announced only as the PA block > - deaggregating PA blocks is at best naive and at worst anti-social Filters can easily resolve that problem. No need to change policies here.= > - multihomed networks who are sufficiently justified in getting PI > blocks (by whatever rationale is generally accepted), *should* use PA o= r > PI blocks They are already. What is your point in writing the above, unless you want to try and explain that you understand the concepts called PI and PA? >> And that because you host some nameservers and are going to anycast >> those? If you are going to anycast them, why do you need more than a >> single /48? >> >> =20 > Because each TLD needs to be anycast from a topologically unique *set* > of servers. But why? > If you have two TLDs whose topology of anycast is different, they must,= > by definition of anycast, have unique prefixes. Why are they going to be different? Are you going to locate the .info server in one datacenter but not in another? Why? > We use unique prefixes for each TLD or country-code TLD (such as .ag, > .mn, .in, etc.) as well as the > afore-mentioned three- and four-letter TLDs. But again, why. That you are going to do it is clear. But that does not answer the WHY question. Why can't those servers, which will all be operated by one single instance, not be simply using 1 single anycast block. >> You do expect that a huge ISP will only announce one single /20 and th= us >> receives all their traffic in that one spot, but for your own purposes= >> suddenly you are special and you are going to announce separate prefix= es? >> >> =20 > Yes. Just the way root servers are special. All 13 of them. Anycast in = a > few hundred locations. > > There is one "root". Each of those 13 instances of "root" are anycast, > and use one /48. There is nothing special about a TLD server. Their addresses are not hardcoded in any configuration files that are distributed around the world. The root-server addresses are hardcoded. TLD servers though can be found by asking those rootservers. As such they are not more special than having google.com NS's. > There is more than one TLD, many more than one. Each of *those* need at= > *least* two /48's, since > the minimum number of nameservers for any zone is two. Again: - why do these TLD's each need a *separate* nameserver? - why can't they simply share the same nameserver set? - are they going to be hosted with different physical links? etc. You are simply trying to make an argument on something you want to happen. Not on something that is actually going to happen. You are simply making yourself special, but you are not special. > And yes, root servers and TLD servers are *very* special. As I mention in the paragraph above there is NOTHING special about a TLD server. They are just a subdomain of the root. Just like google.com is, just like disney.com is. That some people have made them look special is something completely different. They still are not. > They are very much *not* DNS hosting. (I humbly suggest you review the > archives of dnsop). "Please google for this" "Please check the archives of that" For what part? What is the actual explanation you are trying to refer to. Can you at least try to come up with a URL that actually shows the information you are referring to instead of trying to state "hey clearly you don't know, go read a book about it"? >> But just in case you do not want to read what I write, I'll state it >> again: Why are you proposing that ISP's should have only one single >> block and instead of them asking for one huge prefix have the end-user= >> receive a lot less space, this while you are requesting several large >> blocks, are going to announce those blocks separately and are most >> likely only going to use a few number of IP addresses in those blocks?= >> >> See the big problem with what you are proposing and what you are >> actually doing? >> =20 > I see that you can't make the distinction between PA and PI blocks. Thank you, but I very well understand the distinction between the two. > The reason for suggesting policies where smaller allocations to end > sites is done in PA space, > is specifically because nobody knows who will be a lot bigger in 5 or 1= 0 > years. And? Just if a company getting a PI block might not be bigger in 5 or 10 years? Ebay got a /41, are you saying that they might not need more address space in 10 years? Or maybe a better one, Northrup Grumman, Force10 , Seagate and the rest of the "PI Blocks" in the ARIN list. They of course will never need more address space than that. Or for that matter have the need to get an additional /48 because they open up an office on the other side of the country/world and also require PI space in that place, thus creating a need for 2 slots. Something that you are willing to want to avoid for the PA-holders but clearly don't want to avoid for the PI-holders. (I'll remind you that I maintain, as a hobby and for the fun of it, that little list at http://www.sixxs.net/tools/grh/dfp/arin/ which contain all of these, but of course I don't understand the difference between PI and PA....) > We know who is big now. We don't know who (of all the ISPs that exist, > or will be started in the next 5-10 years) will be big later. Does it matter? They get a /32 per default now, that can grow to a /29. If they really get bigger, does it matter that they occupy another routing slot for another million people they are serving by that single slot? You are using a routing slot per nameserver, that is apparently 2 slots per TLD. Now who is being wasteful? Them or you? > The flaw in the logic of "give a huge prefix to large ISPs now" is that= > it presumes that only currently-large ISPs will use up lots of allocati= ons. > Even if it may be true, we don't know for sure that it will be true. And you can assume this for PI apparently. I like to see your crystal ball please. Seriously as mentioned, if they grow, they will grow, they will be able to justify their address space and they can keep on growing. There will be no problem there. Also if an ISP has got a /32 grows it to a /29, and then gets a /20 they can always very slowly renumber the /29 into the /20 and returning the /29. But I really don't see why you need to force those PA holders to force their customers to do /120's when you are abusing multiple /48's and larger blocks for 1 single box. >> For a nice technical question. Will those blocks you are going to >> announce all be announced over physically different mediums or are you= >> going to announce them over the same paths? If it is the latter, then >> why again did you request multiple blocks and are you going to pollute= >> the DFZ with that? >> >> =20 > Different mediums. There will be overlap by site, but definitely, and b= y > design, not 100%. > It is also fluid, changing as circumstances require, and on a per-prefi= x > (i.e. per TLD) basis. Is it really needed to serve .mobi over a different place than .info? Wow, I really would like to see that document with the arguments for that= =2E >> Except for the latter one, they are all larger than a single /48. Can >> you elaborate on that? Are you still going to stick a single box in th= at >> huge /48? >> >> =20 > ARIN is allocating blocks all at one time. It is more convenient for > ARIN to handle the allocations > as a "set". These are in fact all used (and registered) as discrete /48= 's. So you are going to announce 20 or so /48's while only using 1 IP in each /48. And then you are complaining about ISP's who *might* one day come back for more address space for a couple of million of their customers!? >> If you are so confident about the proposed /120 for home user, why not= >> request a /120 for your DNS servers? >> > PI direct assignments are not available as /120 (currently). If they > were, that would be what we request. > (Trust me, we do not need more than that.) Then why did you not propose a policy change in that direction? > The size of PI allocations, however, is not an issue at all. A PI block= > uses one router slot, without any > consideration of its size. But you are complaining about the PA blocks. Funny. > The only issue with PA blocks is the fact that they are reassigned, and= > consumed, in an unpredictable fashion. And why is that an issue? > Companies doing internal stuff, whether they get a reassignment *from* = a > PA block, or via a PI block, generally > have much more predictable usage. Again, WHY is that? Stating things is easy, but please add an explanation about why you are stating it. >> One last thing to summarize it all: Eat your own dog food. >> =20 > How do you know I have dogs? >=20 > I do - and feed them very well. They get only the best, and yes, I do > share some of what they get. > Filet mignon, or chateau-briand on occassion. :-) You might try treating the internet like you treat your dogs. Equals. Greets, Jeroen --------------enig2EBD9C079E86398D35852A2D Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (MingW32) Comment: Jeroen Massar / http://unfix.org/~jeroen/ iHUEARECADUFAkcnYSMuFIAAAAAAFQAQcGthLWFkZHJlc3NAZ251cGcub3JnamVy b2VuQHVuZml4Lm9yZwAKCRApqihSMz58I2uKAKCN9jlBHISK1j7tDceLaIyPGT6n AgCfXb8OF7sYezLeKTEP/DrvGdg7Nlo= =kT5x -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------enig2EBD9C079E86398D35852A2D-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 13:15:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imugk-00072D-E1 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:15:38 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imugi-00045S-8t for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:15:38 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImudX-000M6I-9g for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:12:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [207.219.45.62] (helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImudU-000M5s-V5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:12:18 +0000 Received: from briand-vpn.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.7.90]) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1ImudI-0004wO-S2; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:12:04 -0400 Message-ID: <472765E0.3060002@ca.afilias.info> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:12:00 -0400 From: Brian Dickson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Sprunk CC: Mark Smith , Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net><546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <008c01c81b13$a31fadb0$473816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> In-Reply-To: <008c01c81b13$a31fadb0$473816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: briand@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 9182cfff02fae4f1b6e9349e01d62f32 Stephen Sprunk wrote: > Thus spake "Mark Smith" > > >> (I'm embarrassed to be listed in the acknowledgements section of the >> related draft, because it can imply I agree with it - and my position is >> the complete opposite - I'm even fairly strongly anti-/56.) > > If you object to it, please ask the author to remove you. I agree > that an acknowledgement implies support; a reference would not. If I receive a request from someone to remove their name, I will, certainly. As to why Mark is listed (as well as a few others who may feel similarly)? Simple. Those who challenge us or question our work, make that work stronger. So, even those who do not agree with me, if they helped me produce what I think is better work, deserve credit. (Mark's help was in answering questions about usage of autoconfiguration in IPv6, and on the history of EUI-64 thread on ipv6@ietf.org). 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0009_01C81B34.B8DE87E0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 14:44:35 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imw4p-00076C-1J for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:44:35 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imw4n-0007gH-CS for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:44:35 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Imw1v-0004Lw-U5 for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:41:35 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [207.219.45.62] (helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Imw1p-0004LA-RX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:41:34 +0000 Received: from briand-vpn.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.7.90]) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1Imw1h-00009q-5J; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:41:21 -0400 Message-ID: <47277ACC.60907@ca.afilias.info> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:41:16 -0400 From: Brian Dickson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jeroen Massar CC: Mark Smith , Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations , ARIN People Posting Mailing List Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net> <546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <47272926.8010901@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <47274694.5010300@ca.afilias.info> <47274D67.4000502@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <47275773.7080706@ca.afilias.info> <47276123.7020702@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> In-Reply-To: <47276123.7020702@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: briand@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -2.8 (--) X-Scan-Signature: d2b46e3b2dfbff2088e0b72a54104985 Jeroen Massar wrote: > Brian Dickson wrote: >> We use /48's because they are announced directly to the DFZ, and the >> following are (IMHO) applicable: >> > What about that those 2x /45, that /47 and that /46 you have now? > Are you going to announce those as /48's? > The prefixes that we are announcing currently, from those blocks, are announce already as /48's. All such allocations are going to be announced only as /48's. >> - The smallest PI block assigned by RIRs is /48 >> > > The main reason is because a /48 is considered to be a single site. > You are apparently proposing to change this boundary to a /120 for the > PA blocks that are being allocated by ISPs to their users. > No, I am proposed a policy whereby the ISPs reassign space from PA blocks to their users, based on the users' own plans. The proposed policy has *suggested* sizes for examples, and neither requires */120* use, nor specifies that any specific sizes is *mandatory*. It does, however, suggest *permitting* allocation of blocks longer than /64, and provide guidance on when different specific sizes of allocation might be "ideal" for the end-site. >> Because each TLD needs to be anycast from a topologically unique *set* >> of servers. >> > But why? > Routing follows policy, not the other way round. Policy dictates what goes where. And because each TLD is subject to different policy based on a variety of factors, it is mandatory that TLDs be de-coupled so as to permit implementation of non-congruent policies. If two TLDs, ".foo" and ".bar" are served from a site in a country Fakeland, and the supreme court of Fakeland decrees that ".bar" must not exist in Fakeland, having both ".foo" and ".bar" on the same anycaset prefix would mean that ".foo" would be effectively banned from Fakeland as well. (I'm aware that removing or changing NS "glue" can achieve similar results, but that ignores the problems of caching resolvers and TTLs. The latter preclude solutions that do not have near-instantaneous effectiveness.) >> If you have two TLDs whose topology of anycast is different, they must, >> by definition of anycast, have unique prefixes. >> > > Why are they going to be different? Are you going to locate the .info > server in one datacenter but not in another? Why? > Yes. For policy reasons See the above example for one policy that could require such a difference. > There is nothing special about a TLD server. Their addresses are not > hardcoded in any configuration files that are distributed around the > world. The root-server addresses are hardcoded. TLD servers though can > be found by asking those rootservers. As such they are not more special > than having google.com NS's. > > The TLDs are delegation-only zones. And their addresses are effectively hard-coded in resolver's caches, for the duration of $TTL seconds. That itself is reason enough for them to be "special". > You are using a routing slot per nameserver, that is apparently 2 slots > per TLD. Now who is being wasteful? Them or you? > The rate of growth of TLDs is constrained by ICANN. *Every* TLD is chartered by ICANN. You can see how often they approve a new TLD, no more than a small number per year, and often much less than that. None of this has anything to do with "waste", it has to do with management of scarce resources. There is no such fundamental upper bound, currently, on PA allocations. Rate limiting PA allocations can be done by edict ("thou shalt not have another PA"). Or, PA allocations can be limited by the law of big numbers ("You can have another PA block when you have assigned 2^87 customer prefixes"). (Hint - the universe is less than 2^88 seconds old.) Or, PA allocations can be completely uncapped, with no guarantees on the rate of growth or timeline of exponential growth. I should be clear here. I do not think there is an extraordinarily high probability of PA explosive growth in the short term. I am concerned that it can't be guaranteed that it won't happen. My proposal is attempting to address this concern, at little or no cost to the community. It is reducing a *risk*, the consequences of which are harmful to everyone (to a greater or lesser degree). Opposing the proposal, is advocating for taking risks. (I just want to make you aware of that.) > But I really don't see why you need to force those PA holders to force > their customers to do /120's I'm not suggesting *forcing* anyone to do anything. I'm proposing *allowing* longer assignments, and *suggesting* suitable sizes. Currently, no one is *allowed* to give out anything longer than a /64, although lots of smart folks use longer prefixes for things like point-to-point links on their infrastructure. >> Companies doing internal stuff, whether they get a reassignment *from* a >> PA block, or via a PI block, generally >> have much more predictable usage. >> > > Again, WHY is that? > > Stating things is easy, but please add an explanation about why you are > stating it. > The explanation is not difficult. When you are in control of the plan and the usage, it is more predictable. Internal use is generally a function of capital expenditure, which is for most companies well understood and has a long lead time. When you are not in control, e.g. when the assignments are to customers (and thus a function of "sales"), it is less predictable. (If you doubt me, ask any sales person about predictability of sales.) The lead time between a sale, and the request for an address block, is considerably shorter than the planning time for network expansion. And *that* makes the latter more predictable. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_0FDE_01C81B35.8D7FF8D0-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 16:50:39 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imy2p-0000RP-JK for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:50:39 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imy2h-0005Vo-DG for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 16:50:37 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Imxxj-000GlG-1K for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:45:23 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [209.85.198.189] (helo=rv-out-0910.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Imxxh-000Gkb-IB for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:45:22 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id b22so2268034rvf for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:45:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bj9FI0/XrrW5FmRm7YQrLX5hOwDjRWFMjVWOUOrHquM=; b=jfapU5z7tZhE9bg5Mo29qcd3KKmR7fVqhy6MbF78gKActtMSrZU6Wat2hOYcQPUJtNyQDA6HVIufJfOQ0+Oj8Fchkabif9jc3Krw8HlP2D1HLw+9hGNrqu+RPzyGwVrZeShR9B+DL81GDfFSX1njK4YDi/VeNaHHQGPXrfs7mns= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=NzWZ7Pjf5Q9F9tFSgOhJKuHSder2zPc80yXXQDFySrcHweRZomWHcq9Ne+3WH5SoikS42atcBi+taLplQThAHAfhW16Pt+b9Pgg7C/8WBfLAkvGMdj2mC9pzsC+uiaTLjjAxWt7RXPF1K9X+4pYl4T1PZeZHEWMtMkD5xrDgxQc= Received: by 10.141.116.16 with SMTP id t16mr3574599rvm.1193777119538; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c14sm13563756rvf.2007.10.30.13.45.16 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 30 Oct 2007 13:45:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <472797D4.4050900@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 09:45:08 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Stephen Sprunk CC: Mark Smith , Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net><546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <008c01c81b13$a31fadb0$473816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> In-Reply-To: <008c01c81b13$a31fadb0$473816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 On 2007-10-31 05:39, Stephen Sprunk wrote: > Thus spake "Mark Smith" >> On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:31:10 +0100 >> Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: >>> I thought this would be interesting reading for the working group. >> >> I think the best thing to do is ignore it. If it gets any traction in >> ARIN, then we might have to do something. > > It doesn't appear to have much support at the present time. OTOH, those > of us active in the ARIN community would appreciate pointers to RFCs > that say this idea is or isn't valid so that we have as much guidance > from the IETF as possible. I don't think there is anything that black and white. I think the best discussion of the issues is in http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-02.txt which is unfortunately expired. Maybe its authors would care to update it? IMNSHO Brian Dickson's case doesn't hold water. If ISPs are using careless allocation techniques and thereby wasting space, I don't think that should be fixed by depriving IPv6 users of their normal /48 or possibly /56 assignments for small sites. We didn't expand the address space to allow ISPs to become sloppy at the expense of users. We expanded it to relieve pressure on both ISPs and users. Let's not forget basics. /48 is 65536 times bigger than the raw IPv4 address space. Just how *bad* at allocation do we have to be to run out of /48s??? Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 17:01:02 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImyCs-0003XX-07 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:01:02 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImyCq-0005yG-Nu for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:01:01 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImyBp-000I7X-Lk for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:59:57 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, USER_IN_ALL_SPAM_TO autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [203.6.132.75] (helo=smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImyBm-000I77-RV for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:59:56 +0000 Received: from 219-90-163-11.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.163.11] helo=mail.nosense.org) by smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1ImyBW-0009eW-KW; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 07:29:38 +1030 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A6CDFC90; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 07:28:05 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 07:28:05 +1030 From: Mark Smith To: Jeroen Massar Cc: Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations , ARIN People Posting Mailing List Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction Message-Id: <20071031072805.b4d89601.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <47272926.8010901@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net> <546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <47272926.8010901@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.5 (GTK+ 2.10.14; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: f607d15ccc2bc4eaf3ade8ffa8af02a0 On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 12:52:54 +0000 Jeroen Massar wrote: > Mark Smith wrote: > > Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: > > > >> I thought this would be interesting reading for the working group. > >> > > > > I think the best thing to do is ignore it. If it gets any traction in > > ARIN, then we might have to do something. > > > > (I'm embarrassed to be listed in the acknowledgements section of the > > related draft, because it can imply I agree with it - and my position is > > the complete opposite - I'm even fairly strongly anti-/56.) > > > A proposal for changing the /48 boundary for *home users* to /56 though > might at a certain point be a good idea. Companies should be getting a > /48 IMHO. > (Note to ARIN people who might receive this, below is written for the V6OPS list, which is where this issue was brought up. I'm not addressing ARIN policy, and I'm not effected by it either, as I'm in the APNIC region. Thanks.) As an operator, my objection to /56 is that I like the simplicity of being able to always assume an end customer has a /48, regardless of what type of customer they are. The moment there are /48s or /56s, that means every single time I'm talking about customer address space, I'd have make sure or be sure it's clear to the other person or people that it's a /48 or a /56, meaning that every time I discuss it, I have to state it. It's a small cost, but one repeated many many times. It also creates an opportunity for error. /48s everywhere means one less thing to break. If customers were to get a /56, I'd probably be reserving the /48 that the /56 falls within to allow for that customer to grow without having to renumber. At some point in the future they might call me up and say I want to grow my /56, and I'd be saying, just shorten your prefix length. I figure since I'd be reserving the /48 for them anyway, I can even eliminate that cost of dealing with that query, and give them the /48 from the outset. I should never hear from the again, at least about addressing issues. I'm fairly strongly against /56s just because fundamentally it is extra complexity for which I can't see much practical benefit. I'm not absolutely against it though - it's something I'd compromise on because in the big picture, the increased complexity costs aren't all that significant, and if, over time, it helps people get used to giving enough address space for convenience, not for necessary funcationality, then I'll wear those costs. More than two boundaries though is something I'm absolutely against. That's unnecessary complexity. Regards, Mark. 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    ------=_NextPart_000_AAD3_01C81B3A.A102D670-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 17:57:17 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imz5J-0000pn-3l for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:57:17 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Imz5H-0008TK-Qr for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:57:17 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Imz2R-000Nj5-PK for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:54:19 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [207.219.45.62] (helo=mail.libertyrms.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Imz2Q-000Nio-0d for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:54:18 +0000 Received: from briand-vpn.int.libertyrms.com ([10.1.7.90]) by mail.libertyrms.com with esmtp (Exim 4.22) id 1Imz2B-0008Mu-4k; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:54:03 -0400 Message-ID: <4727A7F6.1010500@ca.afilias.info> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:53:58 -0400 From: Brian Dickson User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: Stephen Sprunk , Mark Smith , Iljitsch van Beijnum , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net><546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <008c01c81b13$a31fadb0$473816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> <472797D4.4050900@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <472797D4.4050900@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-SA-Exim-Mail-From: briand@ca.afilias.info X-SA-Exim-Scanned: No; SAEximRunCond expanded to false Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 944ecb6e61f753561f559a497458fb4f Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 2007-10-31 05:39, Stephen Sprunk wrote: >> Thus spake "Mark Smith" >> >>> On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:31:10 +0100 >>> Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: >>>> I thought this would be interesting reading for the working group. >>> >>> I think the best thing to do is ignore it. If it gets any traction in >>> ARIN, then we might have to do something. >> >> It doesn't appear to have much support at the present time. OTOH, >> those of us active in the ARIN community would appreciate pointers to >> RFCs that say this idea is or isn't valid so that we have as much >> guidance from the IETF as possible. > > I don't think there is anything that black and white. I think > the best discussion of the issues is in > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-narten-ipv6-3177bis-48boundary-02.txt > which is unfortunately expired. Maybe its authors would care to > update it? > Thanks for the pointer, that's a well balanced summary. There are a few salient points in that however, that I think should be emphasized. (I'll try to avoid context issues, while balancing the need to keep thing brief.) [...] A key goal, however, is to avoid the need for a site to renumber into a smaller number of subnet bits when adding a new prefix. This could be achieved, for instance, by having it be easy for an end site to obtain an address block of the same size (or larger) as any existing assignments it already has. The main thing is finding some way to provide assurances to end-sites, that their subnetting plan, will survive renumbering. This is something the RIRs could do with policy, IMHO. Recommend to ISPs that they accept customer requests that are consistent with current policy at the RIR, and which were approved by previous ISPs. And, an observation here is, the likelihood of a new ISP giving a site a prefix compatible with their existing usage, is *greater* when their existing usage is a *longer* prefix. This itself is an argument in *favor* of permitting assignments of longer prefixes. [...] Thus, it remains highly desirable to provide end sites with enough space (on both initial and subsequent assignments) to last several years. Fortunately, this goal can be achieved in a number of ways and does not require that all end sites receive the same default size assignment. And my observation is - no one knows better than the end site what its needs for several years will be. Having the end site suggest an allocation, and how it will be used, is the most sensible approach. Making a larger number of choices available for the end site to select from, encourages thoughtful approaches to networking plan. > IMNSHO Brian Dickson's case doesn't hold water. If ISPs are using > careless allocation techniques and thereby wasting space, I don't think > that should be fixed by depriving IPv6 users of their normal /48 or > possibly /56 assignments for small sites. We didn't expand the address > space to allow ISPs to become sloppy at the expense of users. We expanded > it to relieve pressure on both ISPs and users. > > Let's not forget basics. /48 is 65536 times bigger than the raw IPv4 > address space. Just how *bad* at allocation do we have to be to run > out of /48s??? I've never argued that end sites are likely to return to ISPs for address space. I have, however, argued that ISPs returning to RIRs for PA blocks, is bad for the Internet. And bad for *other* ISPs. It's like "Other People's Money" - easier to spend than your own. When banks go under, it's the bank's customers, not their shareholders, who tend to suffer most. When ISPs use up router slots, it's mostly *other* ISPs they hurt, i.e. their competitors. The ones who have the most to lose, are the ones most likely to behave well. (It is similar to the nuclear doctrine of Mutual Assured Destruction. Nobody wins.) It's the ISPs whose equipment *isn't* in jeopardy, who are more likely to behave irresponsibly. In fact, behaving badly is actually rewarded, by reducing competition. Avoiding repeat PA assignments to ISPs, is the *primary* motivation for the proposals, both at the IETF (6man) and ARIN (ppml). Brian From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 18:50:14 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImzuY-0005Rw-MO for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:50:14 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1ImzuX-0002MJ-E0 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:50:14 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Imzse-0002s3-0l for v6ops-data@psg.com; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:48:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [208.70.104.210] (helo=pearl.ibctech.ca) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Imzsc-0002ro-CO for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:48:15 +0000 Received: (qmail 48708 invoked by uid 1002); 30 Oct 2007 22:48:13 -0000 Received: from ipv6@ibctech.ca by pearl.ibctech.ca by uid 89 with qmail-scanner-1.22 (spamassassin: 2.64. Clear:RC:1(127.0.0.1):. Processed in 6.049621 secs); 30 Oct 2007 22:48:13 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO webmail.ibctech.ca) (127.0.0.1) by localhost.ibctech.ca with SMTP; 30 Oct 2007 22:48:07 -0000 Received: from 208.70.104.211 (SquirrelMail authenticated user steve@ibctech.ca) by webmail.ibctech.ca with HTTP; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <1177.208.70.104.211.1193784487.squirrel@webmail.ibctech.ca> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:48:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction From: "Steve Bertrand" To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.5.1 [CVS] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) Importance: Normal Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 52f7a77164458f8c7b36b66787c853da > IMNSHO Brian Dickson's case doesn't hold water. If ISPs are using > careless allocation techniques and thereby wasting space, I don't > think that should be fixed by depriving IPv6 users of their normal /48 > or possibly /56 assignments for small sites. We didn't expand the > address space to allow ISPs to become sloppy at the expense of users. > We expanded > it to relieve pressure on both ISPs and users. > > Let's not forget basics. /48 is 65536 times bigger than the raw IPv4 > address space. Just how *bad* at allocation do we have to be to run out > of /48s??? All of this bickering is kind of silly IMHO. This thread started with someone proposing a 'policy' as to how an ISP slice up their address space to assign to clients. One of the first few sentences of said policy proposal was thus: "The following guidelines may be useful (but they are only guidelines)" Now, I will be happy when someone can explain how this should not be drafted into a Best Common Practice or other similar document instead of a proposal for policy. Two issues I have here (the way I see it): - guidelines, no matter how tightly written can not be enforced as policy, as they are just that...guidelines - if a policy is 'enforced' on me, I am going to squeeze the 'guidelines' to the limit as best I see fit Is there not too much gray area when composing a draft policy that even includes the word guidelines? An ISP no matter what their size will be directed by the path of least resistance if there are only 'guidelines' in place. This is a recipe for disaster. What works for one will not work for all, and the term 'guidelines' in a policy proposal should sidetrack this entire conversation to something worthy of a policy proposal that we can perhaps adapt before more people turn to IPv6. DNS infrastructure, the assignment of blocks to operate said infrastructure for .tld's and the persecution of persons for mentioning they should not be mentioned in a draft proposal do nothing for the people who are counting on the more experienced people here, and the policy they help create. (I'm speaking for myself, as someone who follows ARIN PPML to the best of my ability, with the resources I have). 'Guidelines' should not be introduced at all into how an ISP should assign blocks of IP's to their clients via policy. If policy changes, it should be documented in a way that is clear, concise and followed as closely by ARIN as possible to the letter. Put guidelines into a BCP. Put enforcible rules into policy. No matter what, if even a policy is too convoluted, too ambiguous or hard to work with, it won't be followed anyway. Steve From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 21:24:50 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1In2KA-0002dI-Jj for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:24:50 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1In2K1-0000v2-9L for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:24:47 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1In2Br-0006AF-8k for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 01:16:15 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [208.77.188.14] (helo=smtp01.icann.org) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1In2Bo-00069y-NL for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 01:16:14 +0000 Received: from 8-193-47-214.losangeles.icannmeeting.org (8-193-47-214.losangeles.icannmeeting.org [8.193.47.214]) (authenticated bits=0) by smtp01.icann.org (8.13.8/8.12.11) with ESMTP id l9V0G9tI014465 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NO); Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:16:10 -0700 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by 8-193-47-214.losangeles.icannmeeting.org (PGP Universal service); Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:16:07 -0700 X-PGP-Universal: processed; by 8-193-47-214.losangeles.icannmeeting.org on Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:16:07 -0700 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/11.3.6.070618 Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:16:05 -0700 Subject: Re: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction From: David Conrad To: Brian Dickson CC: IPv6 Operations Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction Thread-Index: AcgbUzoJeI5DoodGEdyWFwAX8tYkCw== In-Reply-To: <4727A7F6.1010500@ca.afilias.info> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Scan-Signature: 798b2e660f1819ae38035ac1d8d5e3ab On 10/30/07 2:53 PM, "Brian Dickson" wrote: > I have, however, argued that ISPs returning to RIRs for PA blocks, is > bad for the Internet. Only if those new PA blocks can't be aggregated. > Avoiding repeat PA assignments to ISPs, is the *primary* motivation for > the proposals, both at the IETF (6man) and ARIN (ppml). The simplest way to do reduce the impact of multiple PA assignments would be for the RIRs to assign address space in a sparse fashion such that additional allocations could be done by simply subtracting a bit from the allocated prefix length. In fact, the RIRs promised to do this when the /12s were allocated by IANA (last I checked, however, only APNIC was doing it). Regards, -drc From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 21:43:58 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1In2cg-0007U1-5O for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:43:58 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1In2ce-0001iB-TU for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:43:58 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1In2aZ-0000vW-Vl for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 01:41:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [209.85.146.183] (helo=wa-out-1112.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1In2aW-0000v1-AG for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 01:41:46 +0000 Received: by wa-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id v27so2725526wah for ; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:41:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=OGzTZJroqy3QrwEsbw4Jr2X2ety4/g/ojMe9b5iOHRI=; b=uo17ojaYclaPKjk+3tGk95TDhXf7x4rGKwd0GZU8G0Np4PL6U5veNLBPKqbvhR67FhKDmGAkLv+NFmefowS2iTH39YKzGaMCHb1l6LoghEO+ZBZEUx82O0JtPVXawR0hU9vMgN4ARj/djMgZaqHAw3d7cZsf8T6miAYBkPa8hzY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=beta; h=received:message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=GmaLaypDHeKKAW4hmJ9nwucWDghec35zqG+wwQFa0A7V15+4NCsolrrxzsXnYMN7oO1mhb5iQk2KIY/DmwBFtchHMOREGwvFGjHVKqkJetEvoxMXABIpdIujWtf+PAngj2+oZ4vsOMi5UrZ7cPGboosvcx3tDQE2niz2ajFaqjE= Received: by 10.115.76.1 with SMTP id d1mr463037wal.1193791397571; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? ( [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m5sm16508931wag.2007.10.30.17.43.12 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:43:16 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4727CF9C.9010908@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:43:08 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPv6 Operations Subject: [Fwd: In Memoriam: Jun-ichiro Hagino] Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 10ba05e7e8a9aa6adb025f426bef3a30 Just in case people on this list haven't seen this terrible news. Brian -------- Original Message -------- Subject: In Memoriam: Jun-ichiro Hagino Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:26:38 +0000 From: Jeroen Massar Organization: Unfix To: NAv6TF , IETF IPv6 Mailing List I unfortunately just noticed the following being spread around. This is a real big loss :( From http://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20071030220114 8<------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jun-ichiro "itojun" Itoh Hagino passed away on October 29, 2007 at the age of 37. To those in the BSD communities he was simply Itojun, best known in his role as IPv6 KAME project core researcher. Itojun did the vast majority of the work to get IPv6 into the BSD network stacks. He was also instrumental in moving IPv6 forward in all aspects through his participation in IETF protocol design meetings. Itojun was helpful to everyone around him, and dedicated to his work. He believed and worked toward making technology available to everyone. He will be missed, and always remembered. ------------------------------------------------------------------------->8 Rest in piece Itojun. Respect, Jeroen -------- Original Message -------- From: Dragos Ruiu To: bugtraq@securityfocus.com Subject: In Memoriam: Jun-ichiro Hagino Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:10:58 -0700 With great sadness, I regret to inform you that Itojun will not be presenting his great knowledge of IPv6 at PacSec. I have been informed by several sources that he passed away yesterday. Funeral services will be held on Nov 7th at Rinkai-Saijo in Tokyo. There aren't many details of his passing, so please let his family and relatives mourn in peace for now. My heartfelt condolances go out to them, and all of his many friends. I knew Itojun as one of the smartest and kindest people I have ever met. He helped everyone around him. He graciously hosted and assisted many foreigners new to Japan at the PacSec conferences, and was a good friend to all. He would go to extraordinary lengths to help anyone around him. We will all miss him - and his work on IPv6 will continue to help us for a long time.. He once said to me, "When a professional race car driver races, his pulse gets lower and he relaxes. When I code it is the same thing." I'll miss him driving around in his prized Fiat 500... and I hope we can all proceed to help fix our V6 networks without his gentle and insistent coaching. We will announce a replacement talk shortly. If you knew or respected him, he would have wanted any energy you put towards grief to be spent on speeding the adoption and the robustness of the version 6 internet which he devoted so much of his extraordinary life to. Some more information in Japanese at http://www.hoge.org/~koyama/itojun.txt May he rest in peace, --dr -- World Security Pros. Cutting Edge Training, Tools, and Techniques Tokyo, Japan November 29/30 - 2007 http://pacsec.jp pgpkey http://dragos.com/ kyxpgp From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Oct 30 23:22:38 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1In4AA-0002s1-9u for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:22:38 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1In4A8-0005NH-3s for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:22:38 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1In46u-000Axh-9S for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 03:19:16 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.1 (2007-05-02) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE, STOX_REPLY_TYPE autolearn=no version=3.2.1 Received: from [65.67.187.82] (helo=defiant.dfw.nostrum.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.67 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1In46r-000AxP-IW for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 03:19:15 +0000 Received: from ssprunkxp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by defiant.dfw.nostrum.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with SMTP id l9V3HJYi008454; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:17:21 -0500 Message-ID: <01e901c81b6c$82b05030$473816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> From: "Stephen Sprunk" To: "David Conrad" , "Brian Dickson" Cc: "IPv6 Operations" References: Subject: Re: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:57:56 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3138 X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.91.2/4641/Tue Oct 30 14:59:09 2007 on defiant.dfw.nostrum.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 50a516d93fd399dc60588708fd9a3002 Thus spake "David Conrad" > On 10/30/07 2:53 PM, "Brian Dickson" wrote: >> I have, however, argued that ISPs returning to RIRs for PA blocks, is >> bad for the Internet. > > Only if those new PA blocks can't be aggregated. ... and only if there's a non-trivial number of them. Realistically, if LIRs are handing out /48s (or /56s, grr) to every customer, there's only a handful in each region that would run out of space in a /32 and would need to come back for more -- which was the point, IIRC. Plus, those are the exact same folks that are asking for (and getting) more than a /32 to start with. >> Avoiding repeat PA assignments to ISPs, is the *primary* >> motivation for the proposals, both at the IETF (6man) and ARIN >> (ppml). > > The simplest way to do reduce the impact of multiple PA assignments > would be for the RIRs to assign address space in a sparse fashion > such that additional allocations could be done by simply subtracting > a bit from the allocated prefix length. In fact, the RIRs promised to > do this when the /12s were allocated by IANA (last I checked, > however, only APNIC was doing it). Yes, allocating via bisection would help with that quite a bit. Currently, it appears ARIN is allocating /32s out of a reserved /29 for each LIR, which allows 3 bits of growth for each before a second prefix hits the DFZ. That doesn't seem to be enough at first glance. However, the few mega-ISPs out there are asking for blocks larger than a /32 (e.g. /27 and /29), and those larger blocks appear to be coming out of reserved /21s (in ARIN's region). That's a lot of bits for growth for the folks that indicate they don't expect a /32 to be sufficient in the long run. If that still turns out to be insufficient, I'm not so worried about AT&T, VZB, et al announcing two or three aggregates as I am them announcing hundreds to thousands of intentional (e.g. TE) deaggregates. Are we trying to solve the right problem here? S Stephen Sprunk "God does not play dice." --Albert Einstein CCIE #3723 "God is an inveterate gambler, and He throws the K5SSS dice at every possible opportunity." --Stephen Hawking From akstcagaimnsdgs@agai.net Tue Oct 30 23:29:01 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1In4GL-0002LX-KO; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:29:01 -0400 Received: from [121.27.101.151] (helo=[121.27.101.151]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1In4G8-0005bH-P1; Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:28:51 -0400 Received: from [121.27.101.151] by smtp-02.servidoresdns.net; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:30:26 +0800 Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:30:26 +0800 From: "Jamie Atkinson" X-Mailer: The Bat! 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Clear:RC:1(208.70.104.100):. Processed in 6.436583 secs); 31 Oct 2007 12:19:42 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.30.110?) (steve@ibctech.ca@208.70.104.100) by pearl.ibctech.ca with (DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA encrypted) SMTP; 31 Oct 2007 12:19:35 -0000 Message-ID: <4728725D.1040302@ibctech.ca> Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:17:33 -0400 From: Steve Bertrand User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Smith CC: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net> <546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <008c01c81b13$a31fadb0$473816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> <472797D4.4050900@gmail.com> <3400.208.70.104.211.1193783837.squirrel@webmail.ibctech.ca> <20071031201739.4de864f6.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <20071031201739.4de864f6.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 97adf591118a232206bdb5a27b217034 >> "The following guidelines may be useful (but they are only guidelines)" >> > These specific guidelines, as either guidelines or rules, in the > context of IPv6's dramatically larger address space, compared to > IPv4's, are rediculous. > > My concern about suggested guidelines like these are that people who > are stuck in an IPv4 "address space is precious" mindset will grab onto > them and then make IPv6 significantly harder and more costly to manage and > deploy than it was designed to be. Letting that happen would be doing a great > disservice to the future users of the IPv6 Internet. I agree. It's taken me quite some time and several people reminding me to free myself of the IPv4 way of doing things due to the lack of number space. Since I've been able to do that, it doesn't make sense to go back to that way of thinking. Now, I have no doubt whatsoever that there are architects and engineers out there where these particular suggested guidelines will make sense. However, one would think that in most situations, having 10 or so different addressing block sizes will make it a nightmare to implement, document, maintain and in particular, move a clients PA space about the network. I'm not particularly arguing against the idea as it will make sense to some, I just don't agree with it being implemented into policy. I'd much rather see something like this in a draft BCP RFC or similar. I feel that people associate policy with rules, and even though it's clearly documented in the policy proposal that it's just a set of guidelines, it will make murky the current actual policy of the 16-bit boundary rules. Steve From fifa8@yahoo.com Wed Oct 31 08:29:11 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1InCh5-0008Jh-Fq for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:29:11 -0400 Received: from [189.3.60.15] (helo=[189.3.60.15]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1InCh3-0002T7-KP for v6ops-archive@ietf.org; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:29:11 -0400 Received: from [189.3.60.15] by c.mx.mail.yahoo.com; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 09:38:44 -0300 Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 09:38:44 -0300 From: "Armand Currie" X-Mailer: The Bat! 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Oct 31 08:44:49 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.91.34.44] (helo=ietf-mx.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1InCwD-0001MT-Cg for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:44:49 -0400 Received: from psg.com ([147.28.0.62]) by ietf-mx.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1InCw9-00036O-32 for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:44:46 -0400 Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1InCuF-000AUs-7E for v6ops-data@psg.com; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:42:47 +0000 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.3 (2007-08-08) on psg.com X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.5 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00,RDNS_NONE autolearn=no version=3.2.3 Received: from [203.6.132.75] (helo=smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.68 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1InCu4-000AUE-8C for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:42:41 +0000 Received: from 219-90-163-11.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.163.11] helo=mail.nosense.org) by smtp1.mail.adnap.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1InACK-0005q7-Sd; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 20:19:16 +1030 Received: from ubu.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.nosense.org (Postfix) with SMTP id F0622FC90; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 20:17:39 +1030 (CST) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 20:17:39 +1030 From: Mark Smith To: "Steve Bertrand" Cc: "IPv6 Operations" Subject: Re: Fwd: [ppml] Policy Proposal: IPv6 Assignment Size Reduction Message-Id: <20071031201739.4de864f6.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: <3400.208.70.104.211.1193783837.squirrel@webmail.ibctech.ca> References: <471CC069.6040005@arin.net> <546B3558-09D5-4D9D-B56C-EBD7978DB392@muada.com> <20071030230521.0e01415c.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <008c01c81b13$a31fadb0$473816ac@atlanta.polycom.com> <472797D4.4050900@gmail.com> <3400.208.70.104.211.1193783837.squirrel@webmail.ibctech.ca> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 2.4.5 (GTK+ 2.10.14; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk X-Spam-Score: -4.0 (----) X-Scan-Signature: 6cca30437e2d04f45110f2ff8dc1b1d5 On Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:37:17 -0400 (EDT) "Steve Bertrand" wrote: > > > IMNSHO Brian Dickson's case doesn't hold water. If ISPs are using > This thread started with someone proposing a 'policy' as to how an ISP > slice up their address space to assign to clients. One of the first > few sentences of said policy proposal was thus: > > "The following guidelines may be useful (but they are only guidelines)" > You're right, guidelines aren't hard and fast rules, but they are supposed to be "if you don't know any better, or don't have a specific constraint that you're aware of, then if you follow these statements, the results should cater to the majority of cases, and you won't have any significant and unexpected problems." In other words, they're supposed to be realistic and considered recommendations, applyable to most and the majority of common situations. These specific guidelines, as either guidelines or rules, in the context of IPv6's dramatically larger address space, compared to IPv4's, are rediculous. My concern about suggested guidelines like these are that people who are stuck in an IPv4 "address space is precious" mindset will grab onto them and then make IPv6 significantly harder and more costly to manage and deploy than it was designed to be. Letting that happen would be doing a great disservice to the future users of the IPv6 Internet. > Now, I will be happy when someone can explain how this should not be > drafted into a Best Common Practice or other similar document instead > of a proposal for policy. > > Two issues I have here (the way I see it): > > - guidelines, no matter how tightly written can not be enforced as > policy, as they are just that...guidelines > > - if a policy is 'enforced' on me, I am going to squeeze the > 'guidelines' to the limit as best I see fit > > Is there not too much gray area when composing a draft policy that > even includes the word guidelines? > > An ISP no matter what their size will be directed by the path of least > resistance if there are only 'guidelines' in place. This is a recipe > for disaster. > > What works for one will not work for all, and the term 'guidelines' in > a policy proposal should sidetrack this entire conversation to > something worthy of a policy proposal that we can perhaps adapt before > more people turn to IPv6. > > DNS infrastructure, the assignment of blocks to operate said > infrastructure for .tld's and the persecution of persons for > mentioning they should not be mentioned in a draft proposal do nothing > for the people who are counting on the more experienced people here, > and the policy they help create. (I'm speaking for myself, as someone > who follows ARIN PPML to the best of my ability, with the resources I > have). > > 'Guidelines' should not be introduced at all into how an ISP should > assign blocks of IP's to their clients via policy. If policy changes, > it should be documented in a way that is clear, concise and followed > as closely by ARIN as possible to the letter. > > Put guidelines into a BCP. Put enforcible rules into policy. No matter > what, if even a policy is too convoluted, too ambiguous or hard to > work with, it won't be followed anyway. > > Steve > From dunn9shiva1@adinet.com.uy Wed Oct 31 08:53:33 2007 Return-path: Received: from [10.90.34.44] (helo=chiedprmail1.ietf.org) by megatron.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1InD4f-00082Q-7p for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:53:33 -0400 Received: from [210.1.27.249] (helo=210.1.27.249) by chiedprmail1.ietf.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1InD4e-0002tB-CE for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 08:53:33 -0400 Received: from [210.1.27.249] by idve.adinet.com.uy; Wed, 31 Oct 2007 12:54:00 +0000 Message-ID: <000901c81bbd$06564b1a$a20885a3@syafhtw> From: "leigh cuthbert" To: "Ian Middleton" Subject: Shop around for luxury items at a reasonable price Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 11:06:38 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0006_01C81BBD.06522A0E" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.3790.2663 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.3790.2757 X-Spam-Score: 4.7 (++++) X-Scan-Signature: 9ed51c9d1356100bce94f1ae4ec616a9 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C81BBD.06522A0E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Life Should be Full of Luxuries, yet, only a handful of people can = afford the finest products, the luxuries of the elite. 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