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From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
Cc: Mohacsi Janos <mohacsi@niif.hu>, "Brzozowski, John"
 <John_Brzozowski@cable.comcast.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 12:49:34 +0100
Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com> wrote:

> On 31 dec 2007, at 8:22, Mohacsi Janos wrote:
> 

<snip>

> On 30 dec 2007, at 11:33, Mark Smith wrote:
> 
> >> The issue that I see is that of duplicate MAC addresses. I don't see
> >> an easy way to protect against that. How does this work today in a  
> >> N:1
> >> model?
> 
> > The DSLAMs we use perform MAC address - wait for it - NAT, into
> > algorithmically calculated MAC addresses, in part based on line card
> > and node IDs.
> 
> Which of course creates all the usual problems that NAT always  
> creates: what about protocols that embed the translated addresses? In  
> this case, that would be neighbor discovery.
> 

Good point. That puts us between a rock and hard place. It's something
we'd want to leave enabled to avoid the effects of MAC address
collisions, accidental or intentional, but it would probably interfere
with the operation of ND/RAs and possibly DHCPv6. I might start looking
into that a bit more, and when I get back to work on Thursday, discuss
it with our DSLAM expert. We're only using that feature for PPPoE
connections at the moment, and that's obviously working, so I'd presume
PPPoE doesn't carry any MAC address info in the payload.

> > It's ugly thinking about all the FCSes that are being
> > recalculated all the time
> 
> That happens in the ethernet hardware, not an issue.
> 

I think it's ugly for a couple of reasons - the reason you mention
above, and also that the FCS isn't being preserved from the ultimate
source to the ultimate destination node, which creates the opportunity
for corruption to be introduced during the FCS recalculation.
Admittedly 802.1q does the same thing, so it's probably an acceptable
risk (ISL would have been better for the IEEE to adopt if the hardware
out there had been able to cope with it as the trunked or rather
tunnelled frame isn't modified).

Regards,
Mark.




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On 22-Dec-2007, at 03:56, Nathan Ward wrote:

> I'm looking at my server selection stuff for Teredo again, and have
> been looking at ways to get around the (political) problems of having
> a well known name.
>
> My current thinking is, why not have a well known DNS name, but it is
> NOT globally available. The server discovery procedure would be
> something like:
> 1) Lookup A record for `_teredo._udp.arpa.' (or whatever. Note the
> trailing . - we don't want to be looking up
> `_teredo._udp.arpa.defaultdomain' etc.)
> 2) If there is an NXDOMAIN response, the well known anycasted server
> address is used. (hard coded, I'm afraid)
> 3) If there is a NOERROR response pointing to a valid Teredo server,
> this is used.
> 4) If there is any other RCODE, Teredo is not attempted.

I fear that:

  - the politics involved in choosing a name will be tedious
  - there are potential root/ARPA/whatever server load considerations,  
given the potential base of teredo clients
  - bootstrapping a network plumbing exercise using a DNS name sounds  
like it has the potential to expose circular dependencies

Given a well-known anycast address for Teredo (is there one?) I'm not  
sure why the easy answer to this is to forget about the DNS and just  
use the IP address. If sites want to keep the traffic local, they can  
always arrange for traffic aimed at that address to be delivered to a  
local host in their network.

(I'll note that I've been on extended e-mail cold-turkey [ho, ho] over  
the holidays, and may be missing some context in this thread. If what  
I am saying makes no sense, please be gentle.)


Joe





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Subject: RFC2767 implementation and deployment experience?
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 08:08:57 -0800
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
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Hello,

Can anyone tell me whether RFC2767 ("Dual Stack Hosts using
the "Bump-In-the-Stack" Technique (BIS)") has been widely
implemented and/or deployed in operational networks? Do you
further expect that it will play an important  role in IPv6
transition? (Originally sent this to the authors, but it
bounced.)

Thank you,

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 02 12:24:39 2008
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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: IPv6 broadband provisioning
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On Sat, 29 Dec 2007, David Miles wrote:

> I'm not sure we need to use global-unicast addresses on the WAN CPE interface

I would strongly suggest that customer is not allowed to source packets 
outside if his/her assigned IP space. So if link-local can be used for all 
packets (when customer has a router), we get a very nice demarcation and 
can do filtering where we know that our infrastructure is in a certain 
IPv6 range and customers are in another, and we know none of our equipment 
is in customer space and vice versa.

So if possible, assign and route the /56 or /48 to the customer router and 
this router then needs to make sure it uses its internal IP to source 
packets destined for global Internet.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se




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h1.CXSPMIDDLE
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h1.CXSPLAST
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mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
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h2
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h3
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h4
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h5
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mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
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mso-themecolor: text1;
mso-themetint: 128
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h6
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mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
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mso-themecolor: text1;
mso-themetint: 128
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li.MSOHEADING7
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li.MSOHEADING8
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p.MSOHEADING9
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li.MSOHEADING9
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p.MSOTITLE
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li.MSOTITLE
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div.MSOTITLE
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p.MSOTITLECXSPFIRST
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li.MSOTITLECXSPFIRST
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div.MSOTITLECXSPFIRST
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p.MSOTITLECXSPMIDDLE
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mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
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li.MSOTITLECXSPMIDDLE
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mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
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div.MSOTITLECXSPMIDDLE
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mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
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p.MSOTITLECXSPLAST
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mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
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li.MSOTITLECXSPLAST
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mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
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div.MSOTITLECXSPLAST
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mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
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p.MSOSUBTITLE
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mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
mso-style-priority: 11
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li.MSOSUBTITLE
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a:link
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span.MSOHYPERLINK
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a:visited
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span.MSOHYPERLINKFOLLOWED
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em
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mso-style-priority: 20
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p
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p.MSOACETATE
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li.MSOACETATE
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mso-style-priority: 99
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div.MSOACETATE
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p.MSONOSPACING
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li.MSONOSPACING
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div.MSONOSPACING
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p.MSOLISTPARAGRAPH
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li.MSOLISTPARAGRAPH
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p.MSOLISTPARAGRAPHCXSPFIRST
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p.MSOQUOTE
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p.MSOINTENSEQUOTE
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span.MSOSUBTLEEMPHASIS
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span.MSOINTENSEEMPHASIS
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span.MSOSUBTLEREFERENCE
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span.MSOINTENSEREFERENCE
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span.MSOBOOKTITLE
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p.MSOTOCHEADING
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p.MSOTOCHEADINGCXSPFIRST
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li.MSOTOCHEADINGCXSPFIRST
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div.MSOTOCHEADINGCXSPFIRST
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li.MSOTOCHEADINGCXSPLAST
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div.MSOTOCHEADINGCXSPLAST
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span.HEADING1CHAR
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span.HEADING2CHAR
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span.HEADING3CHAR
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span.HEADING4CHAR
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mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
mso-style-priority: 9
;}
span.HEADING5CHAR
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
mso-style-priority: 9;
mso-themecolor: text1;
mso-themetint: 128
;}
span.HEADING6CHAR
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
mso-style-priority: 9;
mso-themecolor: text1;
mso-themetint: 128
;}
span.HEADING7CHAR
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
mso-style-priority: 9
;}
span.HEADING8CHAR
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
mso-style-priority: 9
;}
span.HEADING9CHAR
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
mso-style-priority: 9
;}
span.TITLECHAR
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
mso-style-priority: 10
;}
span.SUBTITLECHAR
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
mso-style-priority: 11
;}
span.BALLOONTEXTCHAR
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
span.QUOTECHAR
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-style-priority: 29
;}
span.INTENSEQUOTECHAR
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-style-priority: 30
;}
p.COMPANYWEBSITE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.COMPANYWEBSITE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.COMPANYWEBSITE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
p.TITLE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.TITLE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.TITLE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
p.COPYRIGHTLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.COPYRIGHTLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.COPYRIGHTLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
p.CONTACTLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.CONTACTLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.CONTACTLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
p.INTROLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.INTROLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.INTROLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
p.POSITIONLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.POSITIONLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.POSITIONLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
p.SUBHEADING
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.SUBHEADING
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.SUBHEADING
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
p.BODYLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.BODYLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.BODYLINE
{mso-style-unhide: no;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
span.POSTBODY1
{mso-style-unhide: no
;}
.MSOCHPDEFAULT
{mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin;
mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;
mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi;
mso-default-props: yes
;}
table.MSONORMALTABLE
{mso-style-qformat: yes;
mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin;
mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;
mso-style-priority: 99
;}
 /* Font Definitions */
 @font-face
{font-family:Tahoma;
panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;
mso-font-charset:0;
mso-generic-font-family:swiss;
mso-font-pitch:variable;
mso-font-signature:1627421319 -2147483648 8 0 66047 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
mso-font-alt:"Times New Roman";
mso-font-charset:0;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:auto;
mso-font-signature:0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
{font-family:Cambria;
mso-font-charset:0;
mso-generic-font-family:auto;
mso-font-pitch:auto;
mso-font-signature:0 0 0 0 0 0;}
 /* Style Definitions */
 p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{mso-style-parent:"";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
h1
{mso-style-link:"Heading 1 Char";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
mso-outline-level:1;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-font-kerning:0pt;
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;
font-weight:normal;}
h2
{mso-style-link:"Heading 2 Char";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
mso-outline-level:2;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;
font-weight:normal;}
h3
{mso-style-link:"Heading 3 Char";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
mso-outline-level:3;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;
font-weight:normal;}
h4
{mso-style-link:"Heading 4 Char";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
mso-outline-level:4;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;
font-weight:normal;}
h5
{mso-style-link:"Heading 5 Char";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
mso-outline-level:5;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;
font-weight:normal;}
h6
{mso-style-link:"Heading 6 Char";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
mso-outline-level:6;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;
font-weight:normal;}
p.MsoHeading7, li.MsoHeading7, div.MsoHeading7
{mso-style-link:"Heading 7 Char";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
mso-outline-level:7;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.MsoHeading8, li.MsoHeading8, div.MsoHeading8
{mso-style-link:"Heading 8 Char";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
mso-outline-level:8;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.MsoHeading9, li.MsoHeading9, div.MsoHeading9
{mso-style-link:"Heading 9 Char";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
mso-outline-level:9;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.MsoTitle, li.MsoTitle, div.MsoTitle
{mso-style-link:"Title Char";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.MsoSubtitle, li.MsoSubtitle, div.MsoSubtitle
{mso-style-link:"Subtitle Char";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-noshow:yes;
color:#FFCC00;
mso-text-animation:none;
text-decoration:none;
text-underline:none;
text-decoration:none;
text-line-through:none;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-noshow:yes;
color:#FFCC00;
mso-text-animation:none;
text-decoration:none;
text-underline:none;
text-decoration:none;
text-line-through:none;}
em
{mso-style-parent:"";
letter-spacing:.5pt;
border:none windowtext 1.0pt;
mso-border-alt:none windowtext 0in;
padding:0in;
font-weight:bold;}
p
{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
margin-right:0in;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:0in;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
{mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:0in;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
span.Heading1Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 1 Char";
mso-style-locked:yes;
mso-style-link:"Heading 1";
mso-ansi-font-size:14.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:14.0pt;
font-family:Cambria;
mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
font-weight:bold;}
span.Heading2Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 2 Char";
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-locked:yes;
mso-style-link:"Heading 2";
mso-ansi-font-size:13.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:13.0pt;
font-family:Cambria;
mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
font-weight:bold;}
span.Heading3Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 3 Char";
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-locked:yes;
mso-style-link:"Heading 3";
font-family:Cambria;
mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
font-weight:bold;}
span.Heading4Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 4 Char";
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-locked:yes;
mso-style-link:"Heading 4";
font-family:Cambria;
mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic;}
span.Heading5Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 5 Char";
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-locked:yes;
mso-style-link:"Heading 5";
font-family:Cambria;
mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
color:#7F7F7F;
font-weight:bold;}
span.Heading6Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 6 Char";
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-locked:yes;
mso-style-link:"Heading 6";
font-family:Cambria;
mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
color:#7F7F7F;
font-weight:bold;
font-style:italic;}
span.Heading7Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 7 Char";
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-locked:yes;
mso-style-link:"Heading 7";
font-family:Cambria;
mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
font-style:italic;}
span.Heading8Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 8 Char";
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-locked:yes;
mso-style-link:"Heading 8";
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Cambria;
mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.Heading9Char
{mso-style-name:"Heading 9 Char";
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-locked:yes;
mso-style-link:"Heading 9";
mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Cambria;
mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
letter-spacing:.25pt;
font-style:italic;}
span.TitleChar
{mso-style-name:"Title Char";
mso-style-locked:yes;
mso-style-link:Title;
mso-ansi-font-size:26.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:26.0pt;
font-family:Cambria;
mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
letter-spacing:.25pt;}
span.SubtitleChar
{mso-style-name:"Subtitle Char";
mso-style-locked:yes;
mso-style-link:Subtitle;
mso-ansi-font-size:12.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:Cambria;
mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
letter-spacing:.65pt;
font-style:italic;}
span.BalloonTextChar
{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
mso-style-noshow:yes;
mso-style-locked:yes;
mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
mso-ansi-font-size:8.0pt;
mso-bidi-font-size:8.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;
mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;
mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;
color:white;}
p.msonospacing, li.msonospacing, div.msonospacing
{mso-style-name:msonospacing;
margin:0in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
line-height:normal;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.msolistparagraph, li.msolistparagraph, div.msolistparagraph
{mso-style-name:msolistparagraph;
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:.5in;
mso-add-space:auto;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.msolistparagraphCxSpFirst, li.msolistparagraphCxSpFirst, =
div.msolistparagraphCxSpFirst
{mso-style-name:msolistparagraphCxSpFirst;
mso-style-type:export-only;
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-add-space:auto;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.msolistparagraphCxSpMiddle, li.msolistparagraphCxSpMiddle, =
div.msolistparagraphCxSpMiddle
{mso-style-name:msolistparagraphCxSpMiddle;
mso-style-type:export-only;
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.5in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
mso-add-space:auto;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.msolistparagraphCxSpLast, li.msolistparagraphCxSpLast, =
div.msolistparagraphCxSpLast
{mso-style-name:msolistparagraphCxSpLast;
mso-style-type:export-only;
margin-top:0in;
margin-right:0in;
margin-bottom:10.0pt;
margin-left:.5in;
mso-add-space:auto;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
span.QuoteChar
{mso-style-name:"Quote Char";
mso-style-locked:yes;
mso-style-link:Quote;
font-style:italic;}
p.msoquote, li.msoquote, div.msoquote
{mso-style-name:msoquote;
mso-style-link:"Quote Char";
mso-style-next:Normal;
margin-top:10.0pt;
margin-right:.25in;
margin-bottom:0in;
margin-left:.25in;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
line-height:115%;
mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
font-size:11.0pt;
font-family:Calibri;
mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
mso-bidi-language:EN-US;
font-style:italic;}
span.IntenseQuoteChar
{mso-style-name:"Intense Quote Char";
mso-style-locked:yes;
mso-style-link:"Intense Quote";
font-weight:bold;
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 02 13:49:32 2008
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 05:14:51 +1030
From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: IPv6 broadband provisioning
Message-Id: <20080103051451.808bd1b4.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
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References: <9D1DAA67-98BE-4C65-9269-8B25EFB897CA@muada.com>
	<42D99C66-291B-4315-B85E-24CD554866A1@thetiger.com>
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On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 18:21:07 +0100 (CET)
Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:

> On Sat, 29 Dec 2007, David Miles wrote:
> 
> > I'm not sure we need to use global-unicast addresses on the WAN CPE interface
> 
> I would strongly suggest that customer is not allowed to source packets 
> outside if his/her assigned IP space. So if link-local can be used for all 
> packets (when customer has a router), we get a very nice demarcation and 
> can do filtering where we know that our infrastructure is in a certain 
> IPv6 range and customers are in another, and we know none of our equipment 
> is in customer space and vice versa.
> 
> So if possible, assign and route the /56 or /48 to the customer router and 
> this router then needs to make sure it uses its internal IP to source 
> packets destined for global Internet.
>

Maybe I'm missing something really obvious, but how are operators and
their helpdesks going to be able to troubleshoot customer connectivity
problems via offlink ping or traceroute if the link between the
customer and the upstream infrastructure only has link locals? PMTUD
won't work either in certain scenarios due to RPF filtering or
non-forwarding of LL sourced traffic. I wouldn't be all that
comfortable having front line techsupport staff logging into customer
facing aggregation routers for basic troubleshooting, even if it was
into a non-priviledged account.

It's also common for CPE to run a caching DNS servers and NTP
peers these days, which the downstream devices can use, so they'd break
too.

I understand the motive for the suggestion, however I don't really see
how it couldn't be more trouble than it's worth. A ULA prefix on that
upstream link would address some of the issues, but not all of them.
I think to provide global Internet access you really need to ensure a
fully globally addressed path to and from the Internet.

Regards,
Mark.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 02 13:52:57 2008
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Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 19:51:58 +0100 (CET)
From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: IPv6 broadband provisioning
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On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Mark Smith wrote:

> It's also common for CPE to run a caching DNS servers and NTP
> peers these days, which the downstream devices can use, so they'd break
> too.

No, the CPE would use a loopback address for sourcing packets destined to 
the outside (or it's LAN adress).

> I understand the motive for the suggestion, however I don't really see
> how it couldn't be more trouble than it's worth. A ULA prefix on that
> upstream link would address some of the issues, but not all of them.
> I think to provide global Internet access you really need to ensure a
> fully globally addressed path to and from the Internet.

So you think that "ip unnumbered loopback0" in IPv4 is really weird to 
have on WAN interface? It's basically the same thing.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se




From teem@qroo1.telmex.net.mx Wed Jan 02 15:07:15 2008
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To: <v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Subject: Doctor Approved And Recommended
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2008 23:07:12 +0300
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Doctor Approved And Recommended
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 02 17:06:09 2008
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From: David Miles <davidm@thetiger.com>
To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>,
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Subject: Re: IPv6 broadband provisioning
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 09:00:44 +1100
References: <9D1DAA67-98BE-4C65-9269-8B25EFB897CA@muada.com> <42D99C66-291B-4315-B85E-24CD554866A1@thetiger.com> <alpine.DEB.1.00.0801021817440.14455@uplift.swm.pp.se> <20080103051451.808bd1b4.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <alpine.DEB.1.00.0801021949360.14455@uplift.swm.pp.se>
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Mark,

As Mikael said, ICMPv6 messages would not be sourced from link-local  
addresses if the destination IP was a global unicast address, but the  
question of what address they do use would be up to implementation.  
Agreed there is a need for device management such as DSLForum TR-69  
and as you point out, we need an address for sourcing DNS, NTP, etc.  
Options that have been discussed with some of my peers include:
- Using a small network from the delegated prefix for purposes of  
network management (the loopback that Mikael suggest). For example:
	Delegated 2001:db8::/56
	Device uses 2001:db8::/64 for "management functions"- with  
2001:db8::0 as the interface/loopback IP address
	2001:db8:0:1::/64 for LAN interface

Concerns with this approach is that you depend on the CPE to decide  
what prefix to use - and then there is the "dedication" of a whole ::/ 
64 to the job (if that is a concern to others). For ICMP it should be  
up to the CPE to decide what address to respond from, but for ISP  
management and TR-69, it would be nice to know in advance what IP is  
"listening" (though TR-69 would not require this as it has the concept  
of device registration).

- Approach 2, use the LAN IPv6 address for management. The issue here  
is interface state. Ie, if WAN interface is up, but LAN interface is  
down then this is a bad situation.

Unfortunately devices like edge routers, BRAS, BNG and CMTS do have  
finite resources. While it may seem inconsequential to have two  
prefixes assigned to a customer for anti-spoofing entries, routes,  
accounting and classification - it really could add up! Today, most  
broadband customers are represented by a single /32. During IPv6- 
transition, we need to add another prefix so now we have two per  
subscriber. Do we want to go to three (ie, a IPv4 /32, the "WAN" ::/ 
128 and a ::/56)? Note that link-local does not need to be used for  
anti-spoofing, accounting and classification as no customer-sourced  
traffic (except DHCP and BNG-initiated ICMP) would use this src  
address, nor would it go anywhere.

I understand there has been operational experience with such a model  
per RFC 4241 but I have not had personal experience with it in IPv6,  
or the equivalent of the CPE WAN being IP(v4) unnumbered for broadband  
subscribers.
In my experience the use of ICMP ping is not a reliable way of doing  
first-mile assurance and hence it the ATM world we used ATM OAM F4/F5,  
in Ethernet we use IEEE 802.3ah/802.1ag. The operational issue with an  
IP-level analysis is that there is a lot of non-IP equipment between  
subscriber IP interface and ISP IP interface.

By the way, I think the option should be there but I'd like to work  
through the alternative to understand the issues.

-d


On 03/01/2008, at 5:51 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Mark Smith wrote:
>
>> It's also common for CPE to run a caching DNS servers and NTP
>> peers these days, which the downstream devices can use, so they'd  
>> break
>> too.
>
> No, the CPE would use a loopback address for sourcing packets  
> destined to the outside (or it's LAN adress).
>
>> I understand the motive for the suggestion, however I don't really  
>> see
>> how it couldn't be more trouble than it's worth. A ULA prefix on that
>> upstream link would address some of the issues, but not all of them.
>> I think to provide global Internet access you really need to ensure a
>> fully globally addressed path to and from the Internet.
>
> So you think that "ip unnumbered loopback0" in IPv4 is really weird  
> to have on WAN interface? It's basically the same thing.
>
> -- 
> Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se
>





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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-00
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2008 14:09:08 -0800
To: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
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On Dec 31, 2007, at 08:46, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
>
> Under the heading "better late than never"...

I've continued this discussion on the V6CPE Design Team email list.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering






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Subject: Re: IPv6 broadband provisioning
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References: <9D1DAA67-98BE-4C65-9269-8B25EFB897CA@muada.com> <42D99C66-291B-4315-B85E-24CD554866A1@thetiger.com> <alpine.DEB.1.00.0801021817440.14455@uplift.swm.pp.se> <20080103051451.808bd1b4.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
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On 2 jan 2008, at 19:44, Mark Smith wrote:

> Maybe I'm missing something really obvious, but how are operators and
> their helpdesks going to be able to troubleshoot customer connectivity
> problems via offlink ping or traceroute if the link between the
> customer and the upstream infrastructure only has link locals?

When a packet is to be generated and sent out on a link local  
addressed interface towards a non link local destination, a source  
address is borrowed from another interface without explicitly  
configuring "ipv6 unnumbered" (although Cisco IOS will let you do  
that, too).

> PMTUD
> won't work either

Hm, yes, if the LAN behind the CPE uses smaller packets than the WAN  
link to the ISP. (Which is actually true for my DSL line, which has a  
4470 byte ATM MTU but both my router and my ISP's only support 1500 on  
the LAN side.)

> A ULA prefix on that
> upstream link would address some of the issues

No, that would break pretty much all the stuff you mentioned without  
the automatic borrowing of a global address.

> I think to provide global Internet access you really need to ensure a
> fully globally addressed path to and from the Internet.

If you do DHCPv6 prefix delegation it seems a bit much to also assign  
an address. But if you have RAs anyway to support the case where the  
CPE bridges rather than routes, you get the global address for free.

Iljitsch




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span.MSOHYPERLINK
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span.MSOHYPERLINKFOLLOWED
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em
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	mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
	mso-style-priority: 9
;}
span.HEADING5CHAR
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
	mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
	mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
	mso-style-priority: 9;
	mso-themecolor: text1;
	mso-themetint: 128
;}
span.HEADING6CHAR
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
	mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
	mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
	mso-style-priority: 9;
	mso-themecolor: text1;
	mso-themetint: 128
;}
span.HEADING7CHAR
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
	mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
	mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
	mso-style-priority: 9
;}
span.HEADING8CHAR
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
	mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
	mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
	mso-style-priority: 9
;}
span.HEADING9CHAR
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
	mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
	mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
	mso-style-priority: 9
;}
span.TITLECHAR
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
	mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
	mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
	mso-style-priority: 10
;}
span.SUBTITLECHAR
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-ascii-theme-font: major-latin;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: major-fareast;
	mso-hansi-theme-font: major-latin;
	mso-bidi-theme-font: major-bidi;
	mso-style-priority: 11
;}
span.BALLOONTEXTCHAR
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
span.QUOTECHAR
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-style-priority: 29
;}
span.INTENSEQUOTECHAR
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-style-priority: 30
;}
p.COMPANYWEBSITE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.COMPANYWEBSITE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.COMPANYWEBSITE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
p.TITLE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.TITLE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.TITLE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
p.COPYRIGHTLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.COPYRIGHTLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.COPYRIGHTLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
p.CONTACTLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.CONTACTLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.CONTACTLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
p.INTROLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.INTROLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.INTROLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
p.POSITIONLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.POSITIONLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.POSITIONLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
p.SUBHEADING
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.SUBHEADING
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.SUBHEADING
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
p.BODYLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
li.BODYLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
div.BODYLINE
	{mso-style-unhide: no;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}
span.POSTBODY1
	{mso-style-unhide: no
;}
.MSOCHPDEFAULT
	{mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin;
	mso-fareast-theme-font: minor-fareast;
	mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;
	mso-bidi-theme-font: minor-bidi;
	mso-default-props: yes
;}
table.MSONORMALTABLE
	{mso-style-qformat: yes;
	mso-ascii-theme-font: minor-latin;
	mso-hansi-theme-font: minor-latin;
	mso-style-priority: 99
;}

 /* Font Definitions */
 @font-face
	{font-family:Tahoma;
	panose-1:2 11 6 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;
	mso-font-charset:0;
	mso-generic-font-family:swiss;
	mso-font-pitch:variable;
	mso-font-signature:1627421319 -2147483648 8 0 66047 0;}
@font-face
	{font-family:Calibri;
	mso-font-alt:"Times New Roman";
	mso-font-charset:0;
	mso-generic-font-family:auto;
	mso-font-pitch:auto;
	mso-font-signature:0 0 0 0 0 0;}
@font-face
	{font-family:Cambria;
	mso-font-charset:0;
	mso-generic-font-family:auto;
	mso-font-pitch:auto;
	mso-font-signature:0 0 0 0 0 0;}
 /* Style Definitions */
 p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
	{mso-style-parent:"";
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:10.0pt;
	margin-left:0in;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
h1
	{mso-style-link:"Heading 1 Char";
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:10.0pt;
	margin-left:0in;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	mso-outline-level:1;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-font-kerning:0pt;
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;
	font-weight:normal;}
h2
	{mso-style-link:"Heading 2 Char";
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:10.0pt;
	margin-left:0in;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	mso-outline-level:2;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;
	font-weight:normal;}
h3
	{mso-style-link:"Heading 3 Char";
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:10.0pt;
	margin-left:0in;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	mso-outline-level:3;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;
	font-weight:normal;}
h4
	{mso-style-link:"Heading 4 Char";
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:10.0pt;
	margin-left:0in;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	mso-outline-level:4;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;
	font-weight:normal;}
h5
	{mso-style-link:"Heading 5 Char";
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:10.0pt;
	margin-left:0in;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	mso-outline-level:5;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;
	font-weight:normal;}
h6
	{mso-style-link:"Heading 6 Char";
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:10.0pt;
	margin-left:0in;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	mso-outline-level:6;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;
	font-weight:normal;}
p.MsoHeading7, li.MsoHeading7, div.MsoHeading7
	{mso-style-link:"Heading 7 Char";
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:10.0pt;
	margin-left:0in;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	mso-outline-level:7;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.MsoHeading8, li.MsoHeading8, div.MsoHeading8
	{mso-style-link:"Heading 8 Char";
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:10.0pt;
	margin-left:0in;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	mso-outline-level:8;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.MsoHeading9, li.MsoHeading9, div.MsoHeading9
	{mso-style-link:"Heading 9 Char";
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:10.0pt;
	margin-left:0in;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	mso-outline-level:9;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.MsoTitle, li.MsoTitle, div.MsoTitle
	{mso-style-link:"Title Char";
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:10.0pt;
	margin-left:0in;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.MsoSubtitle, li.MsoSubtitle, div.MsoSubtitle
	{mso-style-link:"Subtitle Char";
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:10.0pt;
	margin-left:0in;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
	{mso-style-noshow:yes;
	color:#FFCC00;
	mso-text-animation:none;
	text-decoration:none;
	text-underline:none;
	text-decoration:none;
	text-line-through:none;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
	{mso-style-noshow:yes;
	color:#FFCC00;
	mso-text-animation:none;
	text-decoration:none;
	text-underline:none;
	text-decoration:none;
	text-line-through:none;}
em
	{mso-style-parent:"";
	letter-spacing:.5pt;
	border:none windowtext 1.0pt;
	mso-border-alt:none windowtext 0in;
	padding:0in;
	font-weight:bold;}
p
	{mso-margin-top-alt:auto;
	margin-right:0in;
	mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
	margin-left:0in;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.MsoAcetate, li.MsoAcetate, div.MsoAcetate
	{mso-style-link:"Balloon Text Char";
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:10.0pt;
	margin-left:0in;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
span.Heading1Char
	{mso-style-name:"Heading 1 Char";
	mso-style-locked:yes;
	mso-style-link:"Heading 1";
	mso-ansi-font-size:14.0pt;
	mso-bidi-font-size:14.0pt;
	font-family:Cambria;
	mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	font-weight:bold;}
span.Heading2Char
	{mso-style-name:"Heading 2 Char";
	mso-style-noshow:yes;
	mso-style-locked:yes;
	mso-style-link:"Heading 2";
	mso-ansi-font-size:13.0pt;
	mso-bidi-font-size:13.0pt;
	font-family:Cambria;
	mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	font-weight:bold;}
span.Heading3Char
	{mso-style-name:"Heading 3 Char";
	mso-style-noshow:yes;
	mso-style-locked:yes;
	mso-style-link:"Heading 3";
	font-family:Cambria;
	mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	font-weight:bold;}
span.Heading4Char
	{mso-style-name:"Heading 4 Char";
	mso-style-noshow:yes;
	mso-style-locked:yes;
	mso-style-link:"Heading 4";
	font-family:Cambria;
	mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	font-weight:bold;
	font-style:italic;}
span.Heading5Char
	{mso-style-name:"Heading 5 Char";
	mso-style-noshow:yes;
	mso-style-locked:yes;
	mso-style-link:"Heading 5";
	font-family:Cambria;
	mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	color:#7F7F7F;
	font-weight:bold;}
span.Heading6Char
	{mso-style-name:"Heading 6 Char";
	mso-style-noshow:yes;
	mso-style-locked:yes;
	mso-style-link:"Heading 6";
	font-family:Cambria;
	mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	color:#7F7F7F;
	font-weight:bold;
	font-style:italic;}
span.Heading7Char
	{mso-style-name:"Heading 7 Char";
	mso-style-noshow:yes;
	mso-style-locked:yes;
	mso-style-link:"Heading 7";
	font-family:Cambria;
	mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	font-style:italic;}
span.Heading8Char
	{mso-style-name:"Heading 8 Char";
	mso-style-noshow:yes;
	mso-style-locked:yes;
	mso-style-link:"Heading 8";
	mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
	mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
	font-family:Cambria;
	mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";}
span.Heading9Char
	{mso-style-name:"Heading 9 Char";
	mso-style-noshow:yes;
	mso-style-locked:yes;
	mso-style-link:"Heading 9";
	mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt;
	mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;
	font-family:Cambria;
	mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	letter-spacing:.25pt;
	font-style:italic;}
span.TitleChar
	{mso-style-name:"Title Char";
	mso-style-locked:yes;
	mso-style-link:Title;
	mso-ansi-font-size:26.0pt;
	mso-bidi-font-size:26.0pt;
	font-family:Cambria;
	mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	letter-spacing:.25pt;}
span.SubtitleChar
	{mso-style-name:"Subtitle Char";
	mso-style-locked:yes;
	mso-style-link:Subtitle;
	mso-ansi-font-size:12.0pt;
	mso-bidi-font-size:12.0pt;
	font-family:Cambria;
	mso-ascii-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-hansi-font-family:Cambria;
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	letter-spacing:.65pt;
	font-style:italic;}
span.BalloonTextChar
	{mso-style-name:"Balloon Text Char";
	mso-style-noshow:yes;
	mso-style-locked:yes;
	mso-style-link:"Balloon Text";
	mso-ansi-font-size:8.0pt;
	mso-bidi-font-size:8.0pt;
	font-family:Tahoma;
	mso-ascii-font-family:Tahoma;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-hansi-font-family:Tahoma;
	mso-bidi-font-family:Tahoma;
	color:white;}
p.msonospacing, li.msonospacing, div.msonospacing
	{mso-style-name:msonospacing;
	margin:0in;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	line-height:normal;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.msolistparagraph, li.msolistparagraph, div.msolistparagraph
	{mso-style-name:msolistparagraph;
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:10.0pt;
	margin-left:.5in;
	mso-add-space:auto;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.msolistparagraphCxSpFirst, li.msolistparagraphCxSpFirst, div.msolistparagraphCxSpFirst
	{mso-style-name:msolistparagraphCxSpFirst;
	mso-style-type:export-only;
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:0in;
	margin-left:.5in;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	mso-add-space:auto;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.msolistparagraphCxSpMiddle, li.msolistparagraphCxSpMiddle, div.msolistparagraphCxSpMiddle
	{mso-style-name:msolistparagraphCxSpMiddle;
	mso-style-type:export-only;
	margin-top:0in;
	margin-right:0in;
	margin-bottom:0in;
	margin-left:.5in;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	mso-add-space:auto;
	line-height:115%;
	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
	font-size:11.0pt;
	font-family:Calibri;
	mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";
	mso-bidi-language:EN-US;}
p.msolistparagraphCxSpLast, li.msolistparagraphCxSpLast, div.msolistparagraphCxSpLast
	{mso-style-name:msolistparagraphCxSpLast;
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 03 04:23:01 2008
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Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 19:47:28 +1030
From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: IPv6 broadband provisioning
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	<42D99C66-291B-4315-B85E-24CD554866A1@thetiger.com>
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On Wed, 2 Jan 2008 19:51:58 +0100 (CET)
Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Mark Smith wrote:
> 
> > It's also common for CPE to run a caching DNS servers and NTP
> > peers these days, which the downstream devices can use, so they'd break
> > too.
> 
> No, the CPE would use a loopback address for sourcing packets destined to 
> the outside (or it's LAN adress).
> 
> > I understand the motive for the suggestion, however I don't really see
> > how it couldn't be more trouble than it's worth. A ULA prefix on that
> > upstream link would address some of the issues, but not all of them.
> > I think to provide global Internet access you really need to ensure a
> > fully globally addressed path to and from the Internet.
> 
> So you think that "ip unnumbered loopback0" in IPv4 is really weird to 
> have on WAN interface? It's basically the same thing.
> 

Hmm, I've been influenced by my environment.

My environment is a Ethernet / DSL environment. I've been imagining
deploying IPv6 in the N:1 model that's been mentioned earlier, so all
CPE WAN interfaces within e.g. an exchange, are all sitting as nodes on
the same /64. The N:1 model is attractive of course because at a
minimum it avoids all the (pseudo in the case of ethernet) point to
point "WAN" links, and the question of whether to assign global /64s to
the them or not .. the question that's being asked :-) 

Regards,
Mark.




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References: <9D1DAA67-98BE-4C65-9269-8B25EFB897CA@muada.com>	<42D99C66-291B-4315-B85E-24CD554866A1@thetiger.com>	<alpine.DEB.1.00.0801021817440.14455@uplift.swm.pp.se>	<20080103051451.808bd1b4.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>	<alpine.DEB.1.00.0801021949360.14455@uplift.swm.pp.se> <20080103194728.81292dbd.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
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Mark Smith wrote:
> Hmm, I've been influenced by my environment.
> 
> My environment is a Ethernet / DSL environment. I've been imagining
> deploying IPv6 in the N:1 model that's been mentioned earlier, so all
> CPE WAN interfaces within e.g. an exchange, are all sitting as nodes on
> the same /64. The N:1 model is attractive of course because at a
> minimum it avoids all the (pseudo in the case of ethernet) point to
> point "WAN" links, and the question of whether to assign global /64s to
> the them or not .. the question that's being asked :-) 

The concept still applies for N:1.  The (pseudo) links in a N:1 
environment are still there, with link-local addresses.  The RG still 
uses a loopback (or LAN) global scope address for global scope traffic.

There are some gotchas with DAD in a split-horizon environment like this 
though...

David Miles can explain more around this - he's been looking at it in 
detail.

aj.




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Subject: Discussion of the Home/SOHO environment
From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 15:22:47 -0800
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I am reporting back to the working group on the CPE REquirements  
design team, and specifically a question Alain raised this afternoon.  
I think it is something the IPv6 operational community, and by  
extension the IPv6 community, needs to think about. For context, I  
have included several emails from the thread including my own, which  
opened it, Alain's, which asked some very important questions, and my  
own reply to Alain's note. I have also included a couple of others  
which I thought were important.

I would like the v6ops community to discuss this and come to some  
conclusion that can guide the CPE Requirements development. It may be  
worthwhile documenting that conclusion and the assumptions it is  
based on in an RFC. We are dealing at least in part with a world view  
question, and we need a rational and agreed world view.

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
> Date: January 3, 2008 12:15:44 PM PST
> To: V6CPE Design Team <v6ops-residential-cpe-design- 
> team@external.cisco.com>
> Cc: v6ops-ads@tools.ietf.org, Kurt Erik Lindqvist  
> <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>
> Subject: Wondering if we're on the same wavelength
>
> As we're going through this discussion, I'm wondering if we have it  
> structured right. It seems like we are not working on a single set  
> of requirements on which we basically agree, which is  
> characteristic of a design team. Rather, we have a very polarized  
> discussion between two very different sets of people. One set, the  
> folks who make CPEs, are being told in no uncertain terms by their  
> customers that they need to provide firewall functionality, and  
> some customers require NAT functionality for reasons unrelated to  
> firewalling. The other group, which AFAIK have no skin in the CPE  
> game, are (in some cases adamantly) opposed to the deployment of  
> firewalls.
>
> Would we have a more productive discussion if this were separated  
> into two separate teams and resultant documents, each describing  
> and arguing for its version of the universe? If so, who would like  
> to take the lead on the "we don't need no stinkin firewalls" model?



> From: Alain Durand <alain_durand@cable.comcast.com>
> Date: January 3, 2008 1:22:01 PM PST
> To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>, V6CPE Design Team <v6ops- 
> residential-cpe-design-team@external.cisco.com>
> Cc: <v6ops-ads@tools.ietf.org>, Kurt Erik Lindqvist  
> <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>
> Subject: Re: Wondering if we're on the same wavelength
>
> Fred,
>
> IMHO, what is missing is a broader understanding of what I call the  
> new "social contract" in IPv6 broadband land...
>
> In IPv4 broadband land, there is a pretty well accepted "social  
> contract":
>
>    - Customer get one IPv4 address that can change over time
>    - Customer use/rent/own a NAT box to create more address space,
>      isolate himself/herself from external IP address change, get
>      the so-called security benefits of NAT or whatever over local  
> reason
>    - the "security model" is mainly defined as: all devices within  
> the home
>      network belong to the customer, are mostly unmanaged and
>      a security perimeter is defined by the home router to  
> "protect" the
>      good inside from the "evil" outside.
>    - The ISP has very little if any view of the devices in the home  
> south
>      of the home gateway
>    - There is little DNS in place
>
> Note: all this is a direct consequence of the NAT model
>
> In the brave new world of IPv6, the plethora of address space  
> impose on us to revisit this model, mainly because NAT is not  
> required to connect more than one device. Note that I said not  
> required, which does not mean it will not be part of the picture in  
> one form or another, if only in the NAT v4/v6/v4 that I described  
> last IETF.
>
> So, IMHO, what is needed is for the industry at large (and not just  
> a few experts) to open up a discussion of what this social contract  
> now will look like in IPv6, in other words, what kind of networks  
> and network usage are we looking at, and not just now, but looking  
> ahead...
>
> Essentially, we must *collectively* answer a number of questions:
>
>    - How much space is assigned per customer
>      This is the trivial one that is being discussed right now
>    - Is there any routing within the home?
>    - Is this address space "stable" over time or is it expected
>      to be changeable by the ISP? There are huge ramification in the
>      local routing & provisioning complex depending how you answer  
> this
>      question
>    - What is(are) the management model(s) of the home?
>      Is the customer expected to manage alone his network? How can  
> the ISP
>      usefully help? What about in-home devices operated/owned/under  
> contract
>      with either the ISP or a 3rd party?
>    - What should be the new security model?
>    - How to manage the name space?
>
> I'm concerned we will not make much progress on the firewall issue  
> until we have a better understanding of the broader issue I  
> described above. And honestly, I think we are just at the very  
> beginning.
>
>    - Alain.



> From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
> Date: January 3, 2008 2:32:46 PM PST
> To: Alain Durand <alain_durand@cable.comcast.com>
> Cc: V6CPE Design Team <v6ops-residential-cpe-design- 
> team@external.cisco.com>, <v6ops-ads@tools.ietf.org>, Kurt Erik  
> Lindqvist <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>
> Subject: Re: Wondering if we're on the same wavelength
>
> You raise some important questions. I think there are some more you  
> need to ask.
>
> I have attached a network map of my home. It is somewhat out of  
> date; last summer, my folks-in-law moved in with us as as such as  
> now have TV service in the home, and as a result two set-top boxes.  
> They are right now on the TV coax apart from control, which is done  
> via a combination of a direct radio interface and the wifi network,  
> but in the future one might expect them to come onto the IP network  
> in full.
>
> On Jan 3, 2008, at 1:22 PM, Alain Durand wrote:
>> Fred,
>>
>> IMHO, what is missing is a broader understanding of what I call  
>> the new "social contract" in IPv6 broadband land...
>>
>> In IPv4 broadband land, there is a pretty well accepted "social  
>> contract":
>>
>>    - Customer get one IPv4 address that can change over time
>>    - Customer use/rent/own a NAT box to create more address space,
>>      isolate himself/herself from external IP address change, get
>>      the so-called security benefits of NAT or whatever over local  
>> reason
>>    - the "security model" is mainly defined as: all devices within  
>> the home
>>      network belong to the customer, are mostly unmanaged and
>>      a security perimeter is defined by the home router to  
>> "protect" the
>>      good inside from the "evil" outside.
>>    - The ISP has very little if any view of the devices in the  
>> home south
>>      of the home gateway
>>    - There is little DNS in place
>>
>> Note: all this is a direct consequence of the NAT model
>
> I'll add that they are also consequences of ownership. The ISP, Cox  
> Business Services in my case, supplies the Cable Modem and the set- 
> top box, but apart from that the equipment in my home belongs to  
> me. As a customer, I would be very surprised if my ISP tried to  
> assert any control over anything it didn't own apart from a  
> specific contractual agreement permitting it to do so. It would be  
> enough for me to terminate my contract with the ISP. If my ISP  
> announced to me that it thought there was a new social contract  
> that I as a consumer was supposed to accept but was not a party to,  
> that would likewise be the end of my legal contract. The services  
> my ISP offers in my home are there because I choose them and choose  
> to pay for them, not because the ISP wants them to be there.
>
>> In the brave new world of IPv6, the plethora of address space  
>> impose on us to revisit this model, mainly because NAT is not  
>> required to connect more than one device. Note that I said not  
>> required, which does not mean it will not be part of the picture  
>> in one form or another, if only in the NAT v4/v6/v4 that I  
>> described last IETF.
>
> Certainly, as a customer I expect to have my router obtain an  
> address (ND or DHCP) and other configuration information, including  
> a delegated prefix.
>
>> So, IMHO, what is needed is for the industry at large (and not  
>> just a few experts) to open up a discussion of what this social  
>> contract now will look like in IPv6, in other words, what kind of  
>> networks and network usage are we looking at, and not just now,  
>> but looking ahead...
>>
>> Essentially, we must *collectively* answer a number of questions:
>>
>>    - How much space is assigned per customer
>>      This is the trivial one that is being discussed right now
>
> yes.
>
>>    - Is there any routing within the home?
>
> I suspect that there are multiple classes of home here. In my case,  
> my company's information security policy requires me to have  
> routing in the home - by whatever means, my office equipment is not  
> accessible from the rest of my home.
>
>>    - Is this address space "stable" over time or is it expected
>>      to be changeable by the ISP? There are huge ramification in the
>>      local routing & provisioning complex depending how you answer  
>> this
>>      question
>
> That relates to some of the questions in RRG. If my ISP is  
> designing the network in my home, I guarantee that the home will  
> not be multihomed. Since that is not reality (my home isn't  
> multihomed, but Kurtis' and Jari's are), ergo, the ISP is not  
> designing or managing the network in my home. This in part is the  
> issue being addressed in draft-baker-6man-multiprefix-default- 
> route; if I in fact have multiple prefixes in the home, I want to  
> send my datagrams using an address to the ISP that gave me the  
> address. This is a lot easier with Metro Addressing (the ISPs  
> manage a prefix for the routing domain, which may be similar to a  
> geographical region) or with a GSE-like model such as Christian  
> Vogt suggests.
>
> In any event, if the ISP is provisioning me with a prefix, and I am  
> routing in the home, I expect to have a rational system for using  
> that prefix.
>
>>    - What is(are) the management model(s) of the home?
>>      Is the customer expected to manage alone his network? How can  
>> the ISP
>>      usefully help? What about in-home devices operated/owned/ 
>> under contract
>>      with either the ISP or a 3rd party?
>
> I expect the set-top box and other devices supporting services that  
> I contract for to come with instructions for what I am supposed to  
> do with them in my home. The ISP is a guest in my home, or perhaps  
> a servant like the maid or the butler, and will be replaced the  
> instant it forgets that.
>
>>    - What should be the new security model?
>
> yes.
>
>>    - How to manage the name space?
>
> Why would management of the name space for my home be different for  
> IPv6 than it would be for IPv4? At the end of the day, if I am  
> offering services from my home and using DNS to do them, I would  
> like the fact of getting an A or a AAAA record to be something I  
> only discover after the fact, not something inherent in the name.



> From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
> Date: January 3, 2008 1:50:43 PM PST
> To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
> Cc: V6CPE Design Team <v6ops-residential-cpe-design- 
> team@external.cisco.com>, v6ops-ads@tools.ietf.org, Kurt Erik  
> Lindqvist <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>
> Subject: Re: Wondering if we're on the same wavelength
>
> I think there are three universes :
>
> 1) all end devices don't do firewalling, so the CPE has to do that  
> for them
>
> 2) some end devices don't do firewalling, so the CPE has to do that  
> for them. For the devices do do firewalling, how can we stop the  
> CPE firewall getting in their way
>
> 3) all end devices do firewalling, so the CPE shouldn't, because  
> it'll only get in the way
>
> Actually, thats more of a continuum than 3 separate universes.
>
> My argument is that it's trending towards 3. Because IPv6 is new(ish),
> it's possible that with IPv6 we might reach 3 much more quicly than
> we'll ever reach it in IPv4.
>
> That being said, it has occured to me that we might have overlooked
> that there's already lots of IPv6 CPE in Asia, and lots of IPv6  
> enabled
> devices available (STBs, CCTV cameras etc.) Maybe we should find out
> how they've approached the problem before we spend time resolving it.
>
> Regards,
> Mark.



> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
> Date: January 3, 2008 2:15:55 PM PST
> To: Alain Durand <alain_durand@cable.comcast.com>
> Cc: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>, V6CPE Design Team <v6ops- 
> residential-cpe-design-team@external.cisco.com>, <v6ops- 
> ads@tools.ietf.org>, Kurt Erik Lindqvist <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>
> Subject: Re: Wondering if we're on the same wavelength
>
> On 3 jan 2008, at 22:22, Alain Durand wrote:
>
>> Essentially, we must *collectively* answer a number of questions:
>
> [...]
>
>> I'm concerned we will not make much progress on the firewall issue  
>> until we
>> have a better understanding of the broader issue I described  
>> above. And
>> honestly, I think we are just at the very beginning.
>
> I largely agree.
>
> Would it be useful to see if we can define a number of deployment  
> scenarios and then present those to the community at large it/we  
> can reach consensus about which ones we should go forward with?
>
> There are currently many discussions going on about bridging/ 
> routing CPEs, address provisioning, internal subnet allocation etc  
> (and some of those discussions weren't even started by me!). Until  
> we have some industry-wide agreement on this stuff rolling out IPv6  
> for consumers will be very complex.
>
> As to Fred's question: I think it's useful to hash things out here,  
> ignoring the occassional rant it seems we can find a decent amount  
> of common ground. If we go off in separate groups that only means  
> we'll have to have these fights in public... On the other hand, if  
> the CPE builders feel they can do better work without the firewall  
> skeptics I can live with that.



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From tequilastinger@hotmail.com Thu Jan 03 20:43:43 2008
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Subject: VPXL Has Worked For THOUSANDS of Clients
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 03 21:30:39 2008
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Subject: Re: Discussion of the Home/SOHO environment
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We must be mindful of the finite timeframe CPE vendors have to adopt  
any recommendations that come out of the IETF. Remarkably the IPv6  
message is sinking into large carriers and timings are being  
discussed, with ~2010 being the "date" that I have heard used most  
widely used for commercial service. With larger carriers, many persons  
are involved to bring a new product to commercial service and this can  
take up to 6 months, usually with trials prior. My own timelines  
require IPv6-capable CPE in mid-2009. If we do debate these items I  
would suggest strict deadlines be imposed. Can others give their views/ 
opinions on timing?

Managing a transition to a new protocol is going to be difficult, but  
trying to change the agreed norm 18-months prior to large-scale trials  
is something that the teams must view with a good appreciation of the  
risks. Commentary on IPv6 has already labelled it [IPv6] complex and  
over-engineered, and I do not believe that a protocol-level working  
group should be trying to address such a large issue as "are firewalls  
good things"? This is not an IPv6-specific debate, yet I feel it's  
being captured under the mantra of "do it once, do it right". For the  
CPE team themselves, do we need all these questions answered to get  
the firewall design done?


For the other topics, I agree we should throw ideas into the pot and  
see which float and which sink - let's be sure to work with the other  
standards bodies such as DSL Forum and CableLabs on some of this? Is  
there a liaison between IETF and DSLHome/CableHome?

There are existing solutions for some of the questions that have been  
posed - after all, IPv6 is just a network-layer protocol? The  
questions posed about home networks are defiantly interesting and  
useful, groups such as DSLHome and CableHome have created (and  
deployed) specifications to manage parts of the home network.

Address space stability is imperative from the perspectives of a  
number of carriers I have spoken with - a by-product of NAT was to  
allow WAN (carrier assigned) and LAN (customer assigned) to be  
addressed independently. In IPv6 your LAN addresses are carrier- 
assigned and this will be one of the most significant shifts from  
today's IPv4+NAT world. The stability we have advocated is one where  
you can keep your IPv6 prefix for as long as you remain at your  
residence even if the ISP network rearranges around you (node splits,  
BRAS de-loading, etc). This requires a certain amount of pre-planning  
to avoid RIB blow-outs but can be done. While IPv6 supports it, it  
would be resource intensive for edge routers to support transitioning  
from one prefix to another with multiple prefixes simultaneously active.

Name services for IPv6 is somewhere we have already begun looking at.  
In fact, one reason we are considering the target use of DHCPv6 in the  
home is to allow a central location of hosts for DNS updating (either  
through DHCPv6 FQDN option or web-portal). In this model the DHCPv6  
server would update the DNS server.


My view is that IPv6 will re-open doors for applications developers  
that have been long since shut, this will happen gradually and not  
overnight - after all if you develop an application that leverages  
IPv6, you need to wonder how many customers you can actually get on  
the new protocol.

Regards,

-d


On 04/01/2008, at 10:22 AM, Fred Baker wrote:

> I am reporting back to the working group on the CPE REquirements  
> design team, and specifically a question Alain raised this  
> afternoon. I think it is something the IPv6 operational community,  
> and by extension the IPv6 community, needs to think about. For  
> context, I have included several emails from the thread including my  
> own, which opened it, Alain's, which asked some very important  
> questions, and my own reply to Alain's note. I have also included a  
> couple of others which I thought were important.
>
> I would like the v6ops community to discuss this and come to some  
> conclusion that can guide the CPE Requirements development. It may  
> be worthwhile documenting that conclusion and the assumptions it is  
> based on in an RFC. We are dealing at least in part with a world  
> view question, and we need a rational and agreed world view.
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
>> Date: January 3, 2008 12:15:44 PM PST
>> To: V6CPE Design Team <v6ops-residential-cpe-design-team@external.cisco.com 
>> >
>> Cc: v6ops-ads@tools.ietf.org, Kurt Erik Lindqvist <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se 
>> >
>> Subject: Wondering if we're on the same wavelength
>>
>> As we're going through this discussion, I'm wondering if we have it  
>> structured right. It seems like we are not working on a single set  
>> of requirements on which we basically agree, which is  
>> characteristic of a design team. Rather, we have a very polarized  
>> discussion between two very different sets of people. One set, the  
>> folks who make CPEs, are being told in no uncertain terms by their  
>> customers that they need to provide firewall functionality, and  
>> some customers require NAT functionality for reasons unrelated to  
>> firewalling. The other group, which AFAIK have no skin in the CPE  
>> game, are (in some cases adamantly) opposed to the deployment of  
>> firewalls.
>>
>> Would we have a more productive discussion if this were separated  
>> into two separate teams and resultant documents, each describing  
>> and arguing for its version of the universe? If so, who would like  
>> to take the lead on the "we don't need no stinkin firewalls" model?
>
>
>
>> From: Alain Durand <alain_durand@cable.comcast.com>
>> Date: January 3, 2008 1:22:01 PM PST
>> To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>, V6CPE Design Team <v6ops-residential-cpe-design-team@external.cisco.com 
>> >
>> Cc: <v6ops-ads@tools.ietf.org>, Kurt Erik Lindqvist <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se 
>> >
>> Subject: Re: Wondering if we're on the same wavelength
>>
>> Fred,
>>
>> IMHO, what is missing is a broader understanding of what I call the  
>> new "social contract" in IPv6 broadband land...
>>
>> In IPv4 broadband land, there is a pretty well accepted "social  
>> contract":
>>
>>   - Customer get one IPv4 address that can change over time
>>   - Customer use/rent/own a NAT box to create more address space,
>>     isolate himself/herself from external IP address change, get
>>     the so-called security benefits of NAT or whatever over local  
>> reason
>>   - the "security model" is mainly defined as: all devices within  
>> the home
>>     network belong to the customer, are mostly unmanaged and
>>     a security perimeter is defined by the home router to "protect"  
>> the
>>     good inside from the "evil" outside.
>>   - The ISP has very little if any view of the devices in the home  
>> south
>>     of the home gateway
>>   - There is little DNS in place
>>
>> Note: all this is a direct consequence of the NAT model
>>
>> In the brave new world of IPv6, the plethora of address space  
>> impose on us to revisit this model, mainly because NAT is not  
>> required to connect more than one device. Note that I said not  
>> required, which does not mean it will not be part of the picture in  
>> one form or another, if only in the NAT v4/v6/v4 that I described  
>> last IETF.
>>
>> So, IMHO, what is needed is for the industry at large (and not just  
>> a few experts) to open up a discussion of what this social contract  
>> now will look like in IPv6, in other words, what kind of networks  
>> and network usage are we looking at, and not just now, but looking  
>> ahead...
>>
>> Essentially, we must *collectively* answer a number of questions:
>>
>>   - How much space is assigned per customer
>>     This is the trivial one that is being discussed right now
>>   - Is there any routing within the home?
>>   - Is this address space "stable" over time or is it expected
>>     to be changeable by the ISP? There are huge ramification in the
>>     local routing & provisioning complex depending how you answer  
>> this
>>     question
>>   - What is(are) the management model(s) of the home?
>>     Is the customer expected to manage alone his network? How can  
>> the ISP
>>     usefully help? What about in-home devices operated/owned/under  
>> contract
>>     with either the ISP or a 3rd party?
>>   - What should be the new security model?
>>   - How to manage the name space?
>>
>> I'm concerned we will not make much progress on the firewall issue  
>> until we have a better understanding of the broader issue I  
>> described above. And honestly, I think we are just at the very  
>> beginning.
>>
>>   - Alain.
>
>
>
>> From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
>> Date: January 3, 2008 2:32:46 PM PST
>> To: Alain Durand <alain_durand@cable.comcast.com>
>> Cc: V6CPE Design Team <v6ops-residential-cpe-design-team@external.cisco.com 
>> >, <v6ops-ads@tools.ietf.org>, Kurt Erik Lindqvist <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se 
>> >
>> Subject: Re: Wondering if we're on the same wavelength
>>
>> You raise some important questions. I think there are some more you  
>> need to ask.
>>
>> I have attached a network map of my home. It is somewhat out of  
>> date; last summer, my folks-in-law moved in with us as as such as  
>> now have TV service in the home, and as a result two set-top boxes.  
>> They are right now on the TV coax apart from control, which is done  
>> via a combination of a direct radio interface and the wifi network,  
>> but in the future one might expect them to come onto the IP network  
>> in full.
>>
>> On Jan 3, 2008, at 1:22 PM, Alain Durand wrote:
>>> Fred,
>>>
>>> IMHO, what is missing is a broader understanding of what I call  
>>> the new "social contract" in IPv6 broadband land...
>>>
>>> In IPv4 broadband land, there is a pretty well accepted "social  
>>> contract":
>>>
>>>   - Customer get one IPv4 address that can change over time
>>>   - Customer use/rent/own a NAT box to create more address space,
>>>     isolate himself/herself from external IP address change, get
>>>     the so-called security benefits of NAT or whatever over local  
>>> reason
>>>   - the "security model" is mainly defined as: all devices within  
>>> the home
>>>     network belong to the customer, are mostly unmanaged and
>>>     a security perimeter is defined by the home router to  
>>> "protect" the
>>>     good inside from the "evil" outside.
>>>   - The ISP has very little if any view of the devices in the home  
>>> south
>>>     of the home gateway
>>>   - There is little DNS in place
>>>
>>> Note: all this is a direct consequence of the NAT model
>>
>> I'll add that they are also consequences of ownership. The ISP, Cox  
>> Business Services in my case, supplies the Cable Modem and the set- 
>> top box, but apart from that the equipment in my home belongs to  
>> me. As a customer, I would be very surprised if my ISP tried to  
>> assert any control over anything it didn't own apart from a  
>> specific contractual agreement permitting it to do so. It would be  
>> enough for me to terminate my contract with the ISP. If my ISP  
>> announced to me that it thought there was a new social contract  
>> that I as a consumer was supposed to accept but was not a party to,  
>> that would likewise be the end of my legal contract. The services  
>> my ISP offers in my home are there because I choose them and choose  
>> to pay for them, not because the ISP wants them to be there.
>>
>>> In the brave new world of IPv6, the plethora of address space  
>>> impose on us to revisit this model, mainly because NAT is not  
>>> required to connect more than one device. Note that I said not  
>>> required, which does not mean it will not be part of the picture  
>>> in one form or another, if only in the NAT v4/v6/v4 that I  
>>> described last IETF.
>>
>> Certainly, as a customer I expect to have my router obtain an  
>> address (ND or DHCP) and other configuration information, including  
>> a delegated prefix.
>>
>>> So, IMHO, what is needed is for the industry at large (and not  
>>> just a few experts) to open up a discussion of what this social  
>>> contract now will look like in IPv6, in other words, what kind of  
>>> networks and network usage are we looking at, and not just now,  
>>> but looking ahead...
>>>
>>> Essentially, we must *collectively* answer a number of questions:
>>>
>>>   - How much space is assigned per customer
>>>     This is the trivial one that is being discussed right now
>>
>> yes.
>>
>>>   - Is there any routing within the home?
>>
>> I suspect that there are multiple classes of home here. In my case,  
>> my company's information security policy requires me to have  
>> routing in the home - by whatever means, my office equipment is not  
>> accessible from the rest of my home.
>>
>>>   - Is this address space "stable" over time or is it expected
>>>     to be changeable by the ISP? There are huge ramification in the
>>>     local routing & provisioning complex depending how you answer  
>>> this
>>>     question
>>
>> That relates to some of the questions in RRG. If my ISP is  
>> designing the network in my home, I guarantee that the home will  
>> not be multihomed. Since that is not reality (my home isn't  
>> multihomed, but Kurtis' and Jari's are), ergo, the ISP is not  
>> designing or managing the network in my home. This in part is the  
>> issue being addressed in draft-baker-6man-multiprefix-default- 
>> route; if I in fact have multiple prefixes in the home, I want to  
>> send my datagrams using an address to the ISP that gave me the  
>> address. This is a lot easier with Metro Addressing (the ISPs  
>> manage a prefix for the routing domain, which may be similar to a  
>> geographical region) or with a GSE-like model such as Christian  
>> Vogt suggests.
>>
>> In any event, if the ISP is provisioning me with a prefix, and I am  
>> routing in the home, I expect to have a rational system for using  
>> that prefix.
>>
>>>   - What is(are) the management model(s) of the home?
>>>     Is the customer expected to manage alone his network? How can  
>>> the ISP
>>>     usefully help? What about in-home devices operated/owned/under  
>>> contract
>>>     with either the ISP or a 3rd party?
>>
>> I expect the set-top box and other devices supporting services that  
>> I contract for to come with instructions for what I am supposed to  
>> do with them in my home. The ISP is a guest in my home, or perhaps  
>> a servant like the maid or the butler, and will be replaced the  
>> instant it forgets that.
>>
>>>   - What should be the new security model?
>>
>> yes.
>>
>>>   - How to manage the name space?
>>
>> Why would management of the name space for my home be different for  
>> IPv6 than it would be for IPv4? At the end of the day, if I am  
>> offering services from my home and using DNS to do them, I would  
>> like the fact of getting an A or a AAAA record to be something I  
>> only discover after the fact, not something inherent in the name.
>
>
>
>> From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
>> Date: January 3, 2008 1:50:43 PM PST
>> To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
>> Cc: V6CPE Design Team <v6ops-residential-cpe-design-team@external.cisco.com 
>> >, v6ops-ads@tools.ietf.org, Kurt Erik Lindqvist  
>> <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>
>> Subject: Re: Wondering if we're on the same wavelength
>>
>> I think there are three universes :
>>
>> 1) all end devices don't do firewalling, so the CPE has to do that  
>> for them
>>
>> 2) some end devices don't do firewalling, so the CPE has to do that  
>> for them. For the devices do do firewalling, how can we stop the  
>> CPE firewall getting in their way
>>
>> 3) all end devices do firewalling, so the CPE shouldn't, because  
>> it'll only get in the way
>>
>> Actually, thats more of a continuum than 3 separate universes.
>>
>> My argument is that it's trending towards 3. Because IPv6 is  
>> new(ish),
>> it's possible that with IPv6 we might reach 3 much more quicly than
>> we'll ever reach it in IPv4.
>>
>> That being said, it has occured to me that we might have overlooked
>> that there's already lots of IPv6 CPE in Asia, and lots of IPv6  
>> enabled
>> devices available (STBs, CCTV cameras etc.) Maybe we should find out
>> how they've approached the problem before we spend time resolving it.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mark.
>
>
>
>> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
>> Date: January 3, 2008 2:15:55 PM PST
>> To: Alain Durand <alain_durand@cable.comcast.com>
>> Cc: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>, V6CPE Design Team <v6ops-residential-cpe-design-team@external.cisco.com 
>> >, <v6ops-ads@tools.ietf.org>, Kurt Erik Lindqvist <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se 
>> >
>> Subject: Re: Wondering if we're on the same wavelength
>>
>> On 3 jan 2008, at 22:22, Alain Durand wrote:
>>
>>> Essentially, we must *collectively* answer a number of questions:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>> I'm concerned we will not make much progress on the firewall issue  
>>> until we
>>> have a better understanding of the broader issue I described  
>>> above. And
>>> honestly, I think we are just at the very beginning.
>>
>> I largely agree.
>>
>> Would it be useful to see if we can define a number of deployment  
>> scenarios and then present those to the community at large it/we  
>> can reach consensus about which ones we should go forward with?
>>
>> There are currently many discussions going on about bridging/ 
>> routing CPEs, address provisioning, internal subnet allocation etc  
>> (and some of those discussions weren't even started by me!). Until  
>> we have some industry-wide agreement on this stuff rolling out IPv6  
>> for consumers will be very complex.
>>
>> As to Fred's question: I think it's useful to hash things out here,  
>> ignoring the occassional rant it seems we can find a decent amount  
>> of common ground. If we go off in separate groups that only means  
>> we'll have to have these fights in public... On the other hand, if  
>> the CPE builders feel they can do better work without the firewall  
>> skeptics I can live with that.
>
>
> <Fred_home_network.pdf>





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On Jan 3, 2008, at 15:22, Fred Baker wrote:
>
> I would like the v6ops community to discuss this and come to some =20
> conclusion that can guide the CPE Requirements development. It may =20
> be worthwhile documenting that conclusion and the assumptions it is =20=

> based on in an RFC. We are dealing at least in part with a world =20
> view question, and we need a rational and agreed world view.


Mr. Durand suggests that IPv6 presents service providers with an =20
opportunity to offer a new, revised social contract to retail ISP =20
customers, i.e. a very different one from the traditional social =20
contract that IPv4 service providers have been offering, and with =20
which retail customers have grown accustomed.

On January 3, 2008 at 1:22:01 PM PST, Alain Durand =20
<alain_durand@cable.comcast.com> wrote:
>
> In IPv4 broadband land, there is a pretty well accepted "social =20
> contract":
>
>    - Customer get one IPv4 address that can change over time
>    - Customer use/rent/own a NAT box to create more address space,
>      isolate himself/herself from external IP address change, get
>      the so-called security benefits of NAT or whatever over local =20
> reason
>    - the "security model" is mainly defined as: all devices within =20
> the home
>      network belong to the customer, are mostly unmanaged and
>      a security perimeter is defined by the home router to =20
> "protect" the
>      good inside from the "evil" outside.
>    - The ISP has very little if any view of the devices in the home =20=

> south
>      of the home gateway
>    - There is little DNS in place
>
> Note: all this is a direct consequence of the NAT model
>
> In the brave new world of IPv6, the plethora of address space =20
> impose on us to revisit this model, mainly because NAT is not =20
> required to connect more than one device. Note that I said not =20
> required, which does not mean it will not be part of the picture in =20=

> one form or another, if only in the NAT v4/v6/v4 that I described =20
> last IETF.

I couldn't agree more, but as one of those players with "skin" in the =20=

retail CPE development game, I'd like to point out that our customers =20=

are highly resistant to learning the difference between IPv4 and =20
IPv6.  They don't want to know, and they really don't see why they =20
should have to care.  Frankly, neither do I=97 on both counts.

The new IPv6 social contract needs to be functionally equivalent to =20
the familiar old IPv4 one, or IPv6 service will have to be sold =20
separately and marketed as an *alternative* to IPv4, not a complement =20=

to it.  I'm pretty sure no one wants that (but I'll allow that I =20
could be insufficiently cynical).

If we're going to revisit the IPv4 social contract for the brave new =20
world of IPv6 broadband retail service, here's what I think it will =20
have to look like to keep from scaring our customers:

...beginning with the proposition that what they already know isn't =20
going anywhere...

+ Customer gets one IPv4 address, possibly from RFC 1918 space, that =20
may change over time, sometimes several times per day.  (I know of =20
one service that changes my address six or seven times while I'm in =20
transit between Cupertino and San Francisco.)
+ Customer uses/rents/owns an IPv4 NAT-gateway with all the =20
traditional behaviors and idiosyncracies.
+ The ISP has very little, if any, view of the devices in the private =20=

IPv4 interior subnet south of the NAT-gateway.
+ The ISP offers very little, if any, DNS content service on behalf =20
of the customer for their one IPv4 address.

...in addition...

+ Customer gets one global, provider-aggregated, unicast IPv6 =20
prefix.  (We can argue about the size.  I have reasons for wanting /=20
48 over /56.  I'm willing to haggle.)
+ Customer prefix may change over time, preferably with new prefixes =20
added while the old one is deprecated and still usable for some =20
additional time (measured in hours and maybe days).
+ Interior routing in the customer premises, if any, will be =20
controlled by the customer, not the service provider.  Zero =20
configuration ad-hoc routing is how this will happen, if it does at all.
+ The IPv4 NAT-gateway owned/used/rented by the customer also serves =20
as the IPv6 default gateway for their one IPv6 prefix.
+ On the customer interior network, the IPv6 gateway advertises its =20
default route with RA.  It may optionally offer nodes additional =20
configuration parameters, under the administrative control of the =20
customer, using DHCP6.  Nodes without DHCP6 clients still get service =20=

by stateless autoconfiguration.
+ The ISP has very little, if any, view of the devices in the =20
interior IPv6 network south of the gateway.  (Our customers are =20
downright truculent about this point.  It's not a negotiable =20
position.  If IPv6 means changing this on them, then IPv6 is DOA.)

...finally, and this is IMPORTANT...

+ Customers with public IPv4 addresses get satisfactory 6to4 relay =20
service.
+ Customers with RFC 1918 addresses get satisfactory Teredo service.

(Why are these transition mechanisms important?  Because there's =20
already a lot of installed gear that only supports IPv6 through one =20
or both of these tunneling methods.  When IPv6 addresses start flying =20=

around in application protocols, and devices using this existing gear =20=

start trying to communicate with nodes that have native IPv6 service, =20=

everything needs to work whether it's tunneled or not.  Routing all =20
my clients' IPv6 traffic (native from their perspective) through =20
Ouagadougou because you don't think 6to4 service is important enough =20
to treat with the same respect you treat your own native IPv6 transit =20=

is a great way to make me turn off IPv6 on all my servers and force =20
all your IPv6-only customers to use the NAT-PT box you're still =20
refusing to deploy.)

All the other questions Mr. Durand asks need to have the same answers =20=

for IPv6 as they currently do for IPv4.

Q: What is the management model of the home?
A: Zero configuration everywhere.  Fire and forget provisioning.  =20
Plug in the router, authorize it once, and never mess with it again.  =20=

The ISP can only usefully help by assisting with troubleshooting when =20=

connectivity fails.

Q: What is the "security model" of the home?
A: All devices within the interior network are in the customer's =20
possession, mostly unmanaged, and the perimeter is defined by the =20
gateway to "protect" the good inside from the "evil" outside.  =20
(Customer expectations about how this works for IPv4/NAT need to be =20
respected when considering how to make this work for IPv6, i.e. =20
packets from exterior nodes are not forwarded unless expressly =20
invited by an interior node, or by the customer opting to configure =20
the router manually to allow them to pass.)

Q: What about devices on the interior network operated/owned/under =20
contract with the ISP or a 3rd party.
A: Those devices initiate outbound flows through the gateway to "call =20=

home" for monitoring and control.

Q: How to manage the namespace?
A: The ISP offers very little, if any, DNS content service on behalf =20
of customers, i.e. autogenerated ip6.arpa PTR records would be a =20
luxury add-on.

I can think of other questions worth posing.

Q: What about mobile IPv6?
A: The home agent is either in the IPv6 gateway itself, or on the =20
exterior network somewhere.  It isn't in the interior network unless =20
the customer is weird and deliberately puts it there for some damned =20
reason, and she knows why she's doing it.

Q: What about multicast routing?
A: Customers can subscribe to global scope multicast, both SSM and =20
ASM w/ embedded RP address.  They may need to pay extra to originate =20
global scope SSM (especially if ISP usually expects to change =20
customer prefixes with any frequency).  Originating ASM with embedded =20=

RP addresses may also be supported in a similar manner if the RP is =20
integrated with the IPv6 gateway.  The IPv6 gateway is an =20
organizational scope multicast boundary by default.

Q: What about devices on the interior that shouldn't have global =20
addresses?
A: Don't let them accept router advertisements, and let them use only =20=

link-local addresses.  (If you want them reachable through IPsec =20
tunnel-mode terminated at the IPv6 gateway, then let the gateway =20
offer a ULA prefix in addition to the globally reachable one.  Let =20
the IPsec tunnel be the way the ULA prefix is reached from the =20
exterior network.  Such devices ought to be configurable to refuse =20
prefix advertisements outside the ULA range.)


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering






From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 03 22:01:37 2008
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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Discussion of the Home/SOHO environment
Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 19:00:04 -0800
To: IETF V6OPS WG <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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On Jan 3, 2008, at 18:25, David Miles wrote:
>
> While IPv6 supports it, it would be resource intensive for edge  
> routers to support transitioning from one prefix to another with  
> multiple prefixes simultaneously active.

Actually, no it isn't.  The IPv6-enabled Internet gateway my employer  
sells today does this.  Every time the public IPv4 address changes,  
the IPv6 6to4 interior prefix moves.  It was a piece of cake to make  
this work.  I didn't even break a sweat.

> Name services for IPv6 is somewhere we have already begun looking  
> at. In fact, one reason we are considering the target use of DHCPv6  
> in the home is to allow a central location of hosts for DNS  
> updating (either through DHCPv6 FQDN option or web-portal). In this  
> model the DHCPv6 server would update the DNS server.

Why bother?  You're not letting them run servers on their home  
networks anyway.  Why do their nodes need to have names, much less  
names in your DNS zones?  Answer: they don't, so don't kill yourself  
trying to solve a problem you don't have.

> My view is that IPv6 will re-open doors for applications developers  
> that have been long since shut, this will happen gradually and not  
> overnight - after all if you develop an application that leverages  
> IPv6, you need to wonder how many customers you can actually get on  
> the new protocol.

My view is that IPv6 doesn't actually open any doors that are  
currently shut.  All it does, *ALL* it does, is stave off the  
impending scarcity of public IP addresses by injecting enough supply  
into the market that they remain too cheap to bother benchmarking for  
the foreseeable future.  None of the other features of the new  
protocol are visible or ever will be visible to application  
developers in any meaningful sense.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering






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On 2008-01-04 16:00, james woodyatt wrote:
> On Jan 3, 2008, at 18:25, David Miles wrote:
>>
>> While IPv6 supports it, it would be resource intensive for edge 
>> routers to support transitioning from one prefix to another with 
>> multiple prefixes simultaneously active.
> 
> Actually, no it isn't.  The IPv6-enabled Internet gateway my employer 
> sells today does this.  Every time the public IPv4 address changes, the 
> IPv6 6to4 interior prefix moves.  

That's not quite the same as running with several simultaneous
prefixes, though. I agree that this ought to work painlessly too,
since it's a design feature of IPv6, but the CPE will have to
actually support it, and so will all the consumer devices.

     Brian




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On 2008-01-04 15:45, james woodyatt wrote:
...
> + Customers with public IPv4 addresses get satisfactory 6to4 relay service.

That's presumably a requirement on the ISP. The requirement
on the CPE is to act as a 6to4 router, i.e. implement RFC 3056.

     Brian




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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: IETF V6OPS WG <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Discussion of the Home/SOHO environment
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On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, james woodyatt wrote:

> + Customer gets one IPv4 address, possibly from RFC 1918 space, that may 
> change over time, sometimes several times per day.  (I know of one service 
> that changes my address six or seven times while I'm in transit between 
> Cupertino and San Francisco.)

I don't think this is something customers WANT. At a previous employer our 
ADSL offering consisted of a static IP address provisioned at deployment 
time with no dynamic what so ever.

This was appreciated by operational staff at the ISP (no servers involved 
in the function of getting IP packets flowing meant less outages and 
simpler service to fault isolate in case of trouble. Also no tools needed 
to find who had what IP at what time in case of abuse, IP/user correlation 
always the same) and by customers (we had customers that chose our service 
just because they got a static IP address). After a while we ended up 
giving out that static IP address via DHCP (same answer every time) as 
well just because we needed to provision VoIP service box.

So I would say that the changing of IP addresses is something ISPs have 
forced on customers and not something they choose themselves. It is my 
firm opinion that most customers want the same IP over time. Power users 
want it today, the majority will want it in the future (right now they 
don't care). As streaming devices etc are becoming more prevalent, I see 
users wanting to access their home devices from their mobile terminal for 
instance and this requires globally routed IPs.

ISPs not giving end customers the flexibility that is possible is going to 
have problems in markets where customers have a choice. I keep my ssh 
sessions running for days, so an ISP that changes my IP constantly is just 
simply unacceptable.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se




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Brian and James,

I should have been more specific - my comments were for BNG/BRAS (as  
that is the space I play in) that describe a situation where the ISP  
needs to change the original prefix (call it prefix-A) to a new prefix  
(call it prefix-B).

Yes, IPv6 the protocol and DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation support such a  
concept (delegating a new prefix(-B) and allowing the lifetime to  
expire on prefix-A while allowing both to be routed). I was pointing  
out that this will (in my view) consume needless resources on a BNG/ 
BRAS ultimately limiting the scalability and increasing the cost for  
carriers to adopt IPv6. This will also be increase implementation  
complexity as now the subscriber has (up to) three DHCP states -  
DHCPv4, DHCPv6 Prefix-A and DHCPv6 Prefix-B - for the BNG (and the  
ISP) to keep track of.

We would rather avoid the need for such a requirement and keep to a  
single "static" prefix per subscriber. As Mikael said (and I agree  
with), subscriber do not want the global-unicast addresses on their  
LAN to change.

-d

On 04/01/2008, at 3:47 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> On 2008-01-04 16:00, james woodyatt wrote:
>> On Jan 3, 2008, at 18:25, David Miles wrote:
>>>
>>> While IPv6 supports it, it would be resource intensive for edge  
>>> routers to support transitioning from one prefix to another with  
>>> multiple prefixes simultaneously active.
>> Actually, no it isn't.  The IPv6-enabled Internet gateway my  
>> employer sells today does this.  Every time the public IPv4 address  
>> changes, the IPv6 6to4 interior prefix moves.
>
> That's not quite the same as running with several simultaneous
> prefixes, though. I agree that this ought to work painlessly too,
> since it's a design feature of IPv6, but the CPE will have to
> actually support it, and so will all the consumer devices.
>
>    Brian
>





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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 04 07:40:13 2008
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Let me tackle three issues related to CPEs in one monster message.  
These issues are:

- firewalling
- address provisioning
- IPv4/IPv6 transition/coexistance

When I say "CPE" that can both mean a cable/DSL modem, a home router  
with integrated cable/DSL modem or a home router with no modem  
functionality. I'll call them CPE(m), CPE(r) or CPE(rm) where  
appropriate. If they're managed by the ISP I may add -ISP, if they're  
managed by the end-user/consumer I may add -USER. Note that all of  
this applies to consumer installations.

First, let me start with a few sentences on my philosophy in this area  
and then a list of issues that we need to figure out so the industry  
can move forward.

CPE philosophy
--------------

Because broadband consumers span the gamut from completely ignorant  
about even the most superficial technical issues to people who  
actually build those CPEs, the most important thing is that a CPE can  
address all reasonable use cases along that gamut. In other words: an  
expert user shouldn't be forced to live with what's best for that  
granny who doesn't even have a PC but does have some IP enabled  
devices such as picture frames or sewing machines, but on the other  
hand, the granny shouldn't be forced to become an expert.

What this means is that the defaults are such that non-expert users  
get the tradeoff between security, usability and other aspects that is  
most appropriate (which would be the default settings), but experts  
get to override these defaults. At the very least, it MUST be possible  
to make the CPE act transparently.

Security

As for security: these days, any IP device MUST be ready to be  
connected to a hostile network, which includes the open internet.  
However, because this wasn't true in the past and because removing a  
layer of "security" is scary, it's not possible to market CPEs that  
don't do any filtering. This means that there must be filtering, but  
since it doesn't do anything useful in practice and it does get in the  
way, this filtering must be the minimum that will be accepted by the  
market. That would almost certainly be the level of filtering that is  
de facto provided in today's IPv4 CPEs, which is: outgoing sessions  
and related return traffic is allowed (stateful filtering) and  
applications get to open up TCP/UDP ports for incoming traffic.

Now obviously it's possible to argue that this isn't a good way of  
filtering (in both directions, it can be too much or too little), but  
since that is what you get with pretty much any current CPE those  
discussions are largely moot. The only changes that are possible are  
those that BOTH improve security AND usability at the same time. Any  
change that improves one over the other will be seen as unacceptable  
by one camp.

Transition

Ideally, a CPE will provide both IPv4 and IPv6 service to hosts  
connected to it, regardless of whether the ISP provides IPv4, IPv6 or  
both. So that probably means: regular IPv4 operation, native IPv6,  
6to4, Teredo, NAT-PT... It would be even better if IPv4 hosts behind  
the CPE could make use of IPv6 services and the other way around.  
(Maybe using an HTTP(S) proxy?)

Multiple CPEs

Obviously if there is a CPE(m) then it should also be possible to add  
a CPE(r), but users may have reasons to have multiple CPE(r)s,  
possibly connected in parallel to a CPE(m) but having one CPE(r)  
connect to the LAN side of another CPE(r) would also be a possibility,  
and even the only possible option if there is a CPE(mr). Although  
security policies may prohibit certain applications to work across a  
CPE(r), service discovery and addressing should be transparent within  
the entire site.

Questions
---------

Security

1. Do we all agree that a model where there is stateful filtering by  
default, but applications can request incoming sessions is what we  
should aim for?

2. Or should the opening up of incoming ports go through the OS,  
rather than be signalled directly from applications to the CPE?

3. Should a host have the option of signalling to a CPE that it  
doesn't require any filtering?

Address provisioning

4. Is implementing DHCPv6 snooping and option insertion, similar to  
what currently happens with DHCP for IPv4, a good option for vendors  
of broadband equipment, or is a provisioning solution where this isn't  
necessary preferable?

5. Can we assume the presence of DHCPv6 prefix delegation in CPEs?

6. Can we assume the presence of DHCPv6 address assignment in clients?  
It's not available in most of them now, so how would we get to such a  
state and how soon?

7. Is the model where there is a CPE with modem functionality but not  
router functionality a reasonable one?

8. Do we want to ISPs to provide RAs to customers in the case where 6  
= no and 7 = yes? If not, then what?

9. If 8, then what is the value of the M and O bits?

10. If 5 and a user adds more than one routing CPE, how does the  
prefix delegation work? The "first" routing CPE requests a prefix from  
the ISP and then provides sub-prefixes to the other CPE(r)s, or does  
each CPE get a prefix from the ISP? In the latter case, how do CPE(r)s  
know what routes to install for prefixes held by other CPE(r)s within  
the site?

11. Do we expect ISPs to provide reachability for a new and old prefix  
concurrently when changing prefixes or do ISPs provide long-time  
stable prefixes to IPv6 customers? If "no" on both, then how do we  
avoid disconnected sessions on prefix changes?

12. How do we avoid problems caused by customer equipment MAC  
addresses clashing with that of other customers?

13. How many devices are allowed to connect to a CPE(m)?

14. What kind of addressing is used between the ISP and the first  
CPE(r)? Global customer specific, global shared between customers,  
link local only?

15. How does DAD work on the subnet between an ISP and customers?  
Should hosts and CPEs ignore their own DAD packets when they loop back  
to them?

DNS

16. How do we expect customer devices to enter into the DNS?

17. If the answer to 16 is dynamic DNS updates, how does the  
authentication work?

18. Should IPv6 hosts be prepared to operate without a working reverse  
DNS entry?

Third party devices

19. How do users authorize third-party devices (ranging from gas  
meters to set top boxes) use of their broadband connection?

20. How can third party devices be prevented from observing both data  
traffic and service discovery?

21. How can third party device traffic be limited and/or given QoS?




From baileyLamartina@fluid.co.nz Fri Jan 04 08:21:07 2008
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 04 09:46:58 2008
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On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 17:51:38 +1300, Brian E Carpenter

<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2008-01-04 15:45, james woodyatt wrote:

> ...

>> + Customers with public IPv4 addresses get satisfactory 6to4 relay

> service.

> 

> That's presumably a requirement on the ISP. The requirement

> on the CPE is to act as a 6to4 router, i.e. implement RFC 3056.



I am very much mixed on this.

Yes, implementing a zero-configuration 6to4 relay on the CPE, if:

- it has a public IPv4 address, and

- it has native IPv6

will improve connectivity a lot... if 6to4 actually works.



I have seen several different networks where you get public IPv4

addresses, yet 6to4 does not work properly:

- because proto-41 is black-holed by the ISP, and/or

- because of stateful firewalling.



The second bullet is a minor issue for a 6to4 relay, but it is

a critical issue for a 6to4 gateway. Another argument against

zero-configuration 6to4 gateways is that you cannot check

whether the anycast relay actually works at the other end.



Unless we invent some kind of sanity checks for automatic

RFC3056, I'd rather CPEs avoid doing this by default...



With Teredo, these relaying issues mostly don't exist because

it has some kind of connectivity checks, but it comes at a

significant higher complexity from the CPE.



-- 

RĂ©mi





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Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 16:32:55 +0100
From: Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org>
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Iljitsch,

On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 01:34:38PM +0100, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
> Questions
> ---------
> 
> Security
> 
> 1. Do we all agree that a model where there is stateful filtering by
> default, but applications can request incoming sessions is what we
> should aim for?

I agree.

> 2. Or should the opening up of incoming ports go through the OS,  
> rather than be signalled directly from applications to the CPE?

I think it should be done by the applications. As an application
developer, having the OS doing some stuff that I may or may not know
about is no better than the current NAT situation. Do we really want
to have to have an application-level STUN-equivalent?

> 3. Should a host have the option of signalling to a CPE that it
> doesn't require any filtering?

This makes sense to me. I can see a lot of situations where I would
want to tell someone "click on the 'no IPv6 filtering' button and
we'll try it again".

> Address provisioning
> 
> 4. Is implementing DHCPv6 snooping and option insertion, similar to  
> what currently happens with DHCP for IPv4, a good option for vendors  
> of broadband equipment, or is a provisioning solution where this isn't  
> necessary preferable?

(I'm not an operator, so I can't answer.)

> 5. Can we assume the presence of DHCPv6 prefix delegation in CPEs?

I don't think this is 100% necessary. There are other ways to get a
prefix to a customer premise. For instance, equipment can be shipped
with the prefixed pre-configured. If a customer purchases their own
gear, they can configure prefixes statically.

So, "no". :)

> 6. Can we assume the presence of DHCPv6 address assignment in clients?  
> It's not available in most of them now, so how would we get to such a  
> state and how soon?

In the near term (say 5 years), I don't think we can assume DHCPv6
address assignment in general. Specific operators who supply their own
equipment can mandate this, of course.

> 7. Is the model where there is a CPE with modem functionality but not  
> router functionality a reasonable one?

I don't think so. Minimal routing is very lightweight considering
current technology in CPE.

> 8. Do we want to ISPs to provide RAs to customers in the case where 6  
> = no and 7 = yes? If not, then what?

Well, if the CPE doesn't do it, then it has to be the ISP, right?

> 9. If 8, then what is the value of the M and O bits?
> 
> 10. If 5 and a user adds more than one routing CPE, how does the  
> prefix delegation work? The "first" routing CPE requests a prefix from  
> the ISP and then provides sub-prefixes to the other CPE(r)s, or does  
> each CPE get a prefix from the ISP? In the latter case, how do CPE(r)s  
> know what routes to install for prefixes held by other CPE(r)s within  
> the site?

Well... given the current allocation model, I would think the ISP
would give /48 to the "first" CPE via prefix delegation, and then this
CPE could give /64 out to any other requesting CPE.

"/48 is the new /32", "/64 is the new RFC 1918"... ?

> 11. Do we expect ISPs to provide reachability for a new and old prefix  
> concurrently when changing prefixes or do ISPs provide long-time  
> stable prefixes to IPv6 customers? If "no" on both, then how do we  
> avoid disconnected sessions on prefix changes?

Personally I like the model of providing reachability for both old and
new during renumbering. But... since an ISP only gets a few thousand
/48 at a time, they may be faced with resource scarcity, and not have
the space (GROAN!!!!).

> 12. How do we avoid problems caused by customer equipment MAC  
> addresses clashing with that of other customers?

In which context? I thought both autoconf and DHCPv6 made provision
for this?

> 13. How many devices are allowed to connect to a CPE(m)?

I don't understand the question... ?

> 14. What kind of addressing is used between the ISP and the first  
> CPE(r)? Global customer specific, global shared between customers,  
> link local only?

Site local? :)

Seriously, I'd just use global from the management network, although
that does leave possiblity of leakage...
 
> DNS
> 
> 16. How do we expect customer devices to enter into the DNS?

I think the DNS strategy needs to be mapped to the addressing
strategy (we're talking about ip6.arpa, right?).

For PD I am in favor of delegating to the CPE (although knowing which
address the server is sitting at is tricky). I know this violates the
DNS idea of redundant servers, but as a customer at the end of a pipe
I don't really care if people have reverse for my IP addresses if my
pipe breaks.

> 17. If the answer to 16 is dynamic DNS updates, how does the  
> authentication work?

Well... if the ISP has good control over their network, then using
source IP address may make sense. And maybe someday hosts will use
RFC 3971 (SEND), and that will make even more sense...

> 18. Should IPv6 hosts be prepared to operate without a working reverse  
> DNS entry?

Yes.

(My own take is that we should have deprecated reverse for IPv6,
because of these issues. The costs outweigh the benefits. Nobody
seemed to agree with me when I pushed for this though. Sometimes I
hate DNS weenies.)

> Third party devices
> 
> 19. How do users authorize third-party devices (ranging from gas  
> meters to set top boxes) use of their broadband connection?
>
> 20. How can third party devices be prevented from observing both data  
> traffic and service discovery?
> 
> 21. How can third party device traffic be limited and/or given QoS?

Right now, this is all all layer 2, right? Is there a special reason
not to continue this model?

--
Shane




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Subject: RE: RFC2767 implementation and deployment experience?
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:03:24 -0800
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "v6ops WG" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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I wasn't kidding when I asked this. There is a perceived
requirement for supporting legacy IPv4-only applications=20
on dual-stack end systems for communication with IPv6-only
correspondents. To my understanding, this was the use case
for which RFC2767 was designed but I have been unable to
turn up any useful information other than the RFC itself.

Is there a hole in the IPv6 transition plan?

Thanks - Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com  =20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Templin, Fred L=20
> Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2008 8:09 AM
> To: v6ops WG
> Subject: RFC2767 implementation and deployment experience?
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> Can anyone tell me whether RFC2767 ("Dual Stack Hosts using
> the "Bump-In-the-Stack" Technique (BIS)") has been widely
> implemented and/or deployed in operational networks? Do you
> further expect that it will play an important  role in IPv6
> transition? (Originally sent this to the authors, but it
> bounced.)
>=20
> Thank you,
>=20
> Fred
> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>=20
>=20




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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 04 13:28:36 2008
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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Discussion of the Home/SOHO environment
Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:27:14 -0800
To: IETF V6OPS WG <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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On Jan 3, 2008, at 20:47, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 2008-01-04 16:00, james woodyatt wrote:
>> On Jan 3, 2008, at 18:25, David Miles wrote:
>>>
>>> While IPv6 supports it, it would be resource intensive for edge =20
>>> routers to support transitioning from one prefix to another with =20
>>> multiple prefixes simultaneously active.
>> Actually, no it isn't.  The IPv6-enabled Internet gateway my =20
>> employer sells today does this.  Every time the public IPv4 =20
>> address changes, the IPv6 6to4 interior prefix moves.
>
> That's not quite the same as running with several simultaneous
> prefixes, though. I agree that this ought to work painlessly too,
> since it's a design feature of IPv6, but the CPE will have to
> actually support it, and so will all the consumer devices.

It's basically the same thing if you count the private IPv4 subnet =20
and the IPv6 link-local prefix along with the globally reachable IPv6 =20=

prefix.

Looked at this way, Apple's home gateway products have supported =20
multiple Internet subnet/prefixes for several generations now.  We =20
went with IPv6 link-local a long time ago, mainly because multihoming =20=

in IPv4 is a huge pain in the neck, and just about every machine we =20
sell can (and frequently does) operate multihomed on IEEE 802.3 and =20
IEEE 802.11 at the same time.  Having more than one IPv6 prefix on =20
the same interface is just a wrinkle on the more general problem of =20
having more than one Internet protocol address and/or multiple =20
network interfaces.

 =46rom the perspective of the social contract to which service =20
providers and consumers subscribe, there is nothing really new here.  =20=

Consumers are already used to having their operating systems (and =20
consumer devices) manage the multihoming problem for them, and they =20
really shouldn't be any more inconvenienced by having their IPv6 =20
prefix change out from under them than they are by having their IPv4 =20
address changed out from under them.  ISP's are doing the latter all =20
the time, and I have no reason to believe they won't find reasons to =20
do the former as well=97 if, for no other reason than to protect their =20=

carefully traffic-engineered networks from growing congested because =20
their customers attempt to run unauthorized servers.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering






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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@windows.microsoft.com>
To: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>, IPv6 Operations
	<v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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In a fairly large message, Iljitsch asks questions on multiple topics. I wi=
ll focus here on the security subset of these questions:

> Security
>
> 1. Do we all agree that a model where there is stateful filtering by
> default, but applications can request incoming sessions is what we
> should aim for?
>
> 2. Or should the opening up of incoming ports go through the OS,
> rather than be signalled directly from applications to the CPE?
>
> 3. Should a host have the option of signalling to a CPE that it
> doesn't require any filtering?

I agree with Iljitsch assessment of the state of the market. Stateful filte=
ring in the CPE is technically useless and gets in the way, but there is pr=
obably no way to sell a CPE today that doesn't do it. So, whatever model we=
 have has better assume that there is filtering by default in the gateway. =
The debate should then go on the possible ways to bypass that filtering. So=
 the answer to the questions would be:

1) Assume that there is stateful filter somewhere in the network, because w=
e cannot anymore stop it than stop the rain from falling. (On the other han=
d, the IETF should not encourage rain to fall and routers to meddle with tr=
affic.) As a corollary, assume that there need to be a way to empower all a=
pplications.

2a) The decision to empower applications rightly belong to the user. The us=
er should make a conscious arbitration between the benefits derived from th=
e application, and the exposure created by running that application. Whethe=
r the application uses its own code to achieve that or whether it is built =
using system components is irrelevant. As a matter of fact, modern operatin=
g systems incorporate built-in firewalls and can control which applications=
 are exposed to the network, or not. In any case, the IETF should not be co=
ncerned with the internal architecture of end systems, and should not engag=
e in a debate on the split of functions between application, OS, libraries,=
 host firewalls and other common services.

2b) The solutions that do work well in practice, like STUN and Teredo, are =
those that do not require any explicit signaling between the end system and=
 the gateways or firewalls. Explicit signaling has a mediocre record of wor=
king when the system is directly connected to the gateway -- UPNP, for exam=
ple, ends up working in maybe two thirds of such deployments. Explicit sign=
aling just does not work when the router is several hops away. If the probl=
em is "how to cross stateful filtering routers", the solution has to be "cr=
eate state", probably by sending sacrificial packets along the path in orde=
r to "open the filters".

3) Yes, there should be an option for hosts to signal that they have implem=
ented their own "internal firewall", and would rather not use the services =
of the router. In the design team discussions, two options where raised to =
that effect. One was to allow IPSEC through by default, with the reasoning =
that a host implementing IPSEC also has its own internal firewall. The othe=
r was to allow communication with privacy addresses, with the reasoning tha=
t privacy addresses are randomized, and thus are least likely to be attacke=
d by Internet scanning worms.


-- Christian Huitema






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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: Discussion of the Home/SOHO environment
References: <477DBB5A.8050006@gmail.com> <dce8756b3c560d909e7ec2d0886130a7@chewa.net>
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R=C3=A9mi,

On 2008-01-05 03:43, Remi Denis-Courmont wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Jan 2008 17:51:38 +1300, Brian E Carpenter
>=20
> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>=20
>> On 2008-01-04 15:45, james woodyatt wrote:
>=20
>> ...
>=20
>>> + Customers with public IPv4 addresses get satisfactory 6to4 relay
>>> service.
>=20
>=20
>> That's presumably a requirement on the ISP. The requirement
>> on the CPE is to act as a 6to4 router, i.e. implement RFC 3056.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I am very much mixed on this.
>=20
> Yes, implementing a zero-configuration 6to4 relay on the CPE, if:
>=20
> - it has a public IPv4 address, and
>=20
> - it has native IPv6
>=20
> will improve connectivity a lot... if 6to4 actually works.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I have seen several different networks where you get public IPv4
> addresses, yet 6to4 does not work properly:
>=20
> - because proto-41 is black-holed by the ISP, and/or
>=20
> - because of stateful firewalling.
>=20
> The second bullet is a minor issue for a 6to4 relay, but it is
> a critical issue for a 6to4 gateway. Another argument against
> zero-configuration 6to4 gateways is that you cannot check
> whether the anycast relay actually works at the other end.
>=20
> Unless we invent some kind of sanity checks for automatic
> RFC3056, I'd rather CPEs avoid doing this by default...
>=20
In fact, 6to4 was not invented for the SOHO scenario. We were
mainly thinking of managed sites such as campuses where
the same people would be configuring the 6to4 router and
the firewall, not to mention doing explicit IPv6 routing.

>=20
> With Teredo, these relaying issues mostly don't exist because
> it has some kind of connectivity checks, but it comes at a
> significant higher complexity from the CPE.
>=20

Yes, and Teredo was invented exactly to deal with the issues
raised by 6to4 in a SOHO environment.

    Brian





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From: shogunx <shogunx@sleekfreak.ath.cx>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
cc: Remi Denis-Courmont <rdenis@simphalempin.com>, 
    james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>, IETF V6OPS WG <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Discussion of the Home/SOHO environment
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> >
>
> Yes, and Teredo was invented exactly to deal with the issues
> raised by 6to4 in a SOHO environment.

Surely there is a better way than that kludge though.  Given that NAT
also is a kludge, we really should earnestly consider how to NOT build on
top of it... otherwise, we run the risk of a very nasty stack down the
road.  At worst we should be able to encourage firmware updates for those
NAT boxes... radvd works very well.  At best the CPE should be
providing v6, perhaps making a bridge interface to the v6 router in the
NOC upstream.

Scott


>
>     Brian
>
>






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Date: Sun, 06 Jan 2008 10:42:58 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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 james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>,
 IETF V6OPS WG <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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On 2008-01-06 10:35, shogunx wrote:
>> Yes, and Teredo was invented exactly to deal with the issues
>> raised by 6to4 in a SOHO environment.
> 
> Surely there is a better way than that kludge though.  Given that NAT
> also is a kludge, we really should earnestly consider how to NOT build on
> top of it... otherwise, we run the risk of a very nasty stack down the
> road.  At worst we should be able to encourage firmware updates for those
> NAT boxes... radvd works very well.  At best the CPE should be
> providing v6, perhaps making a bridge interface to the v6 router in the
> NOC upstream.

I agree, but that requires the CPE vendors and the ISPs to accept
a common scenario. Maybe we should propose one...

    Brian




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Jan 05 16:57:28 2008
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
cc: Remi Denis-Courmont <rdenis@simphalempin.com>, 
    james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>, IETF V6OPS WG <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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On Sun, 6 Jan 2008, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> > NAT boxes... radvd works very well.  At best the CPE should be
> > providing v6, perhaps making a bridge interface to the v6 router in the
> > NOC upstream.
>
> I agree, but that requires the CPE vendors and the ISPs to accept
> a common scenario. Maybe we should propose one...

Now that sounds like a great idea.  Show them the map and lead them to
where X marks the spot.  CPE vendors... not so tough, I think.
Cisco is making the mass majority of those deployed anyway, correct?  If
they implement, everyone else will likely do the same to keep up with the
Jones'.  ISPs... They will likely want a mechanism to monetize v6 address
space like they did at $10 each with v4.  I'll wager they will play ball
if that possibility is evident to them.

Scott






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On 4 jan 2008, at 19:28, Christian Huitema wrote:

> 2a) The decision to empower applications rightly belong to the user.  
> The user should make a conscious arbitration between the benefits  
> derived from the application, and the exposure created by running  
> that application. Whether the application uses its own code to  
> achieve that or whether it is built using system components is  
> irrelevant.

I don't think it's always irrelevant. For instance, I suggested at one  
point that a host would indicate its desire to be unfirewalled through  
an neighbor discovery option. There is no reasonable way for  
applications to use such a mechanism.

Also, it could be considered undesirable to have individual  
applications do things like this without oversight from "the system".

> In any case, the IETF should not be concerned with the internal  
> architecture of end systems, and should not engage in a debate on  
> the split of functions between application, OS, libraries, host  
> firewalls and other common services.

Well, obviously someone has to do it, because otherwise there is no  
standard way for applications to ask for these services.

> 2b) The solutions that do work well in practice, like STUN and  
> Teredo, are those that do not require any explicit signaling between  
> the end system and the gateways or firewalls. Explicit signaling has  
> a mediocre record of working when the system is directly connected  
> to the gateway -- UPNP, for example, ends up working in maybe two  
> thirds of such deployments. Explicit signaling just does not work  
> when the router is several hops away. If the problem is "how to  
> cross stateful filtering routers", the solution has to be "create  
> state", probably by sending sacrificial packets along the path in  
> order to "open the filters".

You're basically saying that the situation where there is no need for  
a protocol because systems can trigger the desired action unilaterally  
is preferable over the situation where two systems need to cooperate  
so there must be a protocol between them to accomplish this. That is a  
truism.

However, it doesn't apply here. There is simply no reasonable way to  
get traffic past a stateful firewall without the cooperation from the  
firewall. Also, unlike the IPv4 situation, we actually do get to think  
about this before there are millions of boxes from dozens of vendors  
out there.

> One was to allow IPSEC through by default, with the reasoning that a  
> host implementing IPSEC also has its own internal firewall.

My thinking here was that IPsec is specifically designed to reject  
unknown traffic and IKE/ISAKMP is specifically designed to operate in  
a hostile environment, so no additional firewalling is required.




From Jazz512@alhurayiq.com Sat Jan 05 19:25:41 2008
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Jan 05 22:27:38 2008
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Subject: Re: Teredo server selection
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 16:21:44 +1300
References: <3F989A52-88D6-416A-A4D4-F6417638B6E2@daork.net> <CD1D2AA0-AA58-4465-B861-079688ACF1E3@ca.afilias.info>
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On 3/01/2008, at 3:24 AM, Joe Abley wrote:

> I fear that:
>
> - the politics involved in choosing a name will be tedious
> - there are potential root/ARPA/whatever server load considerations,  
> given the potential base of teredo clients
> - bootstrapping a network plumbing exercise using a DNS name sounds  
> like it has the potential to expose circular dependencies

The first two appear to be issues.
The latter should not be an issue, as existing Teredo clients use DNS  
names for server discovery.

I'm not convinced that there would be significant extra load on the  
root servers however - things like .local, .mshome, .workgroup, etc.  
would cause similar load, I expect.

> Given a well-known anycast address for Teredo (is there one?) I'm  
> not sure why the easy answer to this is to forget about the DNS and  
> just use the IP address. If sites want to keep the traffic local,  
> they can always arrange for traffic aimed at that address to be  
> delivered to a local host in their network.
>
> (I'll note that I've been on extended e-mail cold-turkey [ho, ho]  
> over the holidays, and may be missing some context in this thread.  
> If what I am saying makes no sense, please be gentle.)

There is not a well known IPv4 anycast address for Teredo servers to  
use at this time.

I'd like for there to be a DNS based solution to allow an operator to  
direct end users to a server based on whatever metrics they choose, as  
opposed to just the best IPv4 path. This would allow DNS round robin,  
for example.

My suggestion RE negative names was to work around potential political  
problems where having a globally available name would be a problem.  
Ie. having server.teredo.arpa. (or whatever) returning an A RR  
pointing to an anycasted address. Would the preference be to:
a) Have a well known globally available name, which returns an A RR  
pointing to the anycast address. Operators can 'overload' this.
      Benefit: Less load on the root servers, as positive caching is  
better.
      Drawback: Someone has to be authoritative. Can this be a  
function of [a subset of?] the root servers?
b) Have a well known name that is NOT globally available, which  
operators can optionally return an A RR for.
      Benefit: We don't have to be authoritative.
      Drawback: Potentially higher load on the root servers.
c) Do something else

A show of hands, with comments if you'd like, would be useful here.

--
Nathan Ward








From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 06 03:10:06 2008
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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= <rdenis@simphalempin.com>
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To: shogunx <shogunx@sleekfreak.ath.cx>
Subject: Re: Discussion of the Home/SOHO environment
Date: Sun, 6 Jan 2008 10:03:55 +0200
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 james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>,
 IETF V6OPS WG <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Le Saturday 05 January 2008 23:35:03 shogunx, vous avez =E9crit=A0:
> > Yes, and Teredo was invented exactly to deal with the issues
> > raised by 6to4 in a SOHO environment.
>
> Surely there is a better way than that kludge though.

Errrr, nobody (sane) would ever propose that CPE have to be Teredo gateways=
 to=20
access the IPv6 Internet. For a very simple reason. Contrary to 6to4, there=
=20
is no such thing as a Teredo gateway. Teredo gives you a single address, no=
t=20
a /48 prefix as 6to4 does.

> Given that NAT also is a kludge, we really should earnestly consider how =
to
> NOT build on top of it... otherwise, we run the risk of a very nasty stack
> down the road.  At worst we should be able to encourage firmware updates =
for
> those NAT boxes... radvd works very well.  At best the CPE should be
> providing v6, perhaps making a bridge interface to the v6 router in the
> NOC upstream.

The point here is, IPv6 will be *more* reliable if CPEs *with* native IPv6=
=20
also have a Teredo relay. The only use of the Teredo relay is to reach thir=
d=20
parties using Teredo; it does not affect the "normal" IPv6 connectivity at=
=20
all.

Yet, I do expect most CPEs not to provide a Teredo relay, because the of th=
e=20
extra complexity and cost for the CPE vendor. However, the CPE requirements=
=20
have to be consistent: if the CPE wants to block IPv4 port 3544, it really=
=20
really should provide a Teredo relay. Otherwise, it is effectively decreasi=
ng=20
the reliability of the IPv6 world.

=2D-=20
R=E9mi Denis-Courmont
http://www.remlab.net/




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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 06 03:51:52 2008
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Hey, v6 ops community!

Last year we announced our intentions of running a large scale "see  
what happens when the masses try using ipv6" experiment, described in  
detail at http://www.ipv6experiment.com. While it took a lot longer  
than any of us had hoped, we now have just about everything in place  
to get started.

For the most part, the extent of impact that any of you should see is  
that some of your users who had never used IPv6 before will play with  
it, possibly resulting in increased v6 traffic... be it native, 6to4,  
Teredo or through a tunnel broker such as SixXS. Unless you are  
providing v6 to users in some way (native v6 connections, or running  
your own Tunnel/Teredo/6to4 relay) any increased traffic will be  
purely v4. If you do run v6 of any kind to your users, we're trying to  
make the impact as small as possible while still providing enough  
motivation for people to actually try this.

However, there have been concerns raised by a few networks that we're  
going to break their v6 backbone by encouraging the masses to download  
large files over v6 over a short timeframe. I personally don't think  
that's going to be that much of a problem... If the small number of  
people who actually do play with this cause any kind of congestion,  
TCP should take care of it within reason. But, I'd like to open a  
dialog with those who are worried or interested in the project before  
we begin. I've had a private discussion with the operator of one large- 
ish network who wants to null-route our address space during the  
experiment - I've convinced him to talk about it in public on a  
mailing list we've set up for the discussion of the project before  
doing so.

Since most of this isn't really on topic for this mailing list, I'd  
like to suggest that anyone who wants to talk about this to hop on our  
new mailing list for the experiment... either to discuss the  
methodology/data collection aspect of the experiment itself, it's  
impact on your network or anything else. http://mail.your.org/mailman/listinfo/v6test 
  to sign up. Not to try to take away any discussion from this list,  
but I think the majority of you guys here aren't that concerned with  
the details here, so I'm trying to keep the chatter down.

I'll post one more time here before the experiment starts with the  
dates/IPs/details just so everyone's properly warned. :)

-- Kevin








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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 06 21:08:49 2008
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From: Arifumi Matsumoto <arifumi@nttv6.net>
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CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02
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Hi Ron,

sorry for my late reply.
We were in the new year holiday :)

Ron Bonica wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> The following are a few questions on draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02:
> 
> 1) Do the authors want to publish this document as INFORMATIONAL or PS.
> The tracker says INFORMATIONAL but the document says PS. I recommend
> INFORMATIONAL.

I'm sorry I mistakenly put it back to std category.
Intended status is INFORMATIONAL.
I'll correct it when the draft needs update.

> 2) Does Section 2.1.7 belong in the document? The rest of Section 2.1
> talks about specific routing and forwarding problems. Section 2.1.7
> talks about semantic(?) issues.

In terms of address selection, temporary address and global address
selection is one of the problems that should be included in this
document, I think.

As other problem cases focus on a specific problem examples, they 
have figures and they look very concrete.
Regarding 2.1.7 we didn't pick up a specific problem example.
That might be the reason it looked rather semantic.

If it helps, I'll make it more concrete by focusing on a specific
problematic case.

Kindest regards,

-- 
Arifumi Matsumoto
    IP Technology Expert Team
    Secure Communication Project
    NTT Information Sharing Platform Laboratories
    E-mail: arifumi@nttv6.net







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Subject: Re: CPEs
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 09:26:26 +0100
References: <58BFC685-DA33-418A-A37A-9075509987D4@muada.com> <20080104153255.GF31548@borg.c-l-i.net>
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On 4 Jan 2008, at 16:32, Shane Kerr wrote:

[...]

>> 11. Do we expect ISPs to provide reachability for a new and old  
>> prefix
>> concurrently when changing prefixes or do ISPs provide long-time
>> stable prefixes to IPv6 customers? If "no" on both, then how do we
>> avoid disconnected sessions on prefix changes?
>
> Personally I like the model of providing reachability for both old and
> new during renumbering. But... since an ISP only gets a few thousand
> /48 at a time, they may be faced with resource scarcity, and not have
> the space (GROAN!!!!).

On the whole, ISPs assign addresses for the period during which you  
pay them for a service. I doubt there will be any resource scarcity  
leading to revoked assignments while end-sites continue to pay for  
service from their ISPs. I don't think an alternative where random / 
48s move around between different ASs is a good model to promote.

Regards,

Leo




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Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:38:23 +0100
From: Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org>
To: Leo Vegoda <leo.vegoda@icann.org>
Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: CPEs
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On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 09:26:26AM +0100, Leo Vegoda wrote:
> On 4 Jan 2008, at 16:32, Shane Kerr wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
> >>11. Do we expect ISPs to provide reachability for a new and old
> >>prefix concurrently when changing prefixes or do ISPs provide
> >>long-time stable prefixes to IPv6 customers? If "no" on both, then
> >>how do we avoid disconnected sessions on prefix changes?
> >
> >Personally I like the model of providing reachability for both old
> >and new during renumbering. But... since an ISP only gets a few
> >thousand /48 at a time, they may be faced with resource scarcity,
> >and not have the space (GROAN!!!!).
> 
> On the whole, ISPs assign addresses for the period during which you
> pay them for a service. I doubt there will be any resource scarcity
> leading to revoked assignments while end-sites continue to pay for
> service from their ISPs. I don't think an alternative where random /
> 48s move around between different ASs is a good model to promote.

Well, the scenerio I'm thinking of does not involve a new AS. For
example, if your ISP opens a new site closer to your home, they may
want to route your connectivity into the new site, which could very
well involve renumbering.

So, Ilijtsch's question is important.

I am told that today the best way to do such a migration in IPv4 is
for ISPs to pick a time to move customers to the new numbers, and use
ever-decreasing DHCP lease times to insure that users renumber as
close to that time as possible - but not to overlap the address spaces
for any time.

IPv6 was designed to be able to allow end hosts to more-or-less
painlessly migrate between addresses. I don't know if this has been
widely tested (I suspect not). Plus, unless there is some clever work
on both the ISP and customer side, a renumbering can affect the end
site.

Again, my preference is to support both old and new addresses during a
renumbering, but I don't know if IPv6 is mature enough technology, or
if we have enough space after squandering so much of it.

--
Shane




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Subject: Re: CPEs
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On 7 Jan 2008, at 10:38, Shane Kerr wrote:

[...]

>>>> 11. Do we expect ISPs to provide reachability for a new and old
>>>> prefix concurrently when changing prefixes or do ISPs provide
>>>> long-time stable prefixes to IPv6 customers? If "no" on both, then
>>>> how do we avoid disconnected sessions on prefix changes?
>>>
>>> Personally I like the model of providing reachability for both old
>>> and new during renumbering. But... since an ISP only gets a few
>>> thousand /48 at a time, they may be faced with resource scarcity,
>>> and not have the space (GROAN!!!!).
>>
>> On the whole, ISPs assign addresses for the period during which you
>> pay them for a service. I doubt there will be any resource scarcity
>> leading to revoked assignments while end-sites continue to pay for
>> service from their ISPs. I don't think an alternative where random /
>> 48s move around between different ASs is a good model to promote.
>
> Well, the scenerio I'm thinking of does not involve a new AS. For
> example, if your ISP opens a new site closer to your home, they may
> want to route your connectivity into the new site, which could very
> well involve renumbering.

Ah, now I understand.

> So, Ilijtsch's question is important.
>
> I am told that today the best way to do such a migration in IPv4 is
> for ISPs to pick a time to move customers to the new numbers, and use
> ever-decreasing DHCP lease times to insure that users renumber as
> close to that time as possible - but not to overlap the address spaces
> for any time.

If I was working for an ISP I'd prefer the method that would result in  
the fewest support calls. My experience is that RIRs are happy to give  
ISPs a bit of slack during a renumbering process if it results in more  
efficient address space usage in the medium term.

Address scarcity in this context shouldn't be a worry.

Regards,

Leo




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From: =?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= <rdenis@simphalempin.com>
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Le Friday 04 January 2008 14:34:38 Iljitsch van Beijnum, vous avez =E9crit=
=A0:
> Security
>
> 1. Do we all agree that a model where there is stateful filtering by
> default, but applications can request incoming sessions is what we
> should aim for?

It is pretty clear at this point, that there will be stateful firewalling i=
n=20
many SOHO deployments. As such, we clearly need a hole opening mechanism. O=
r=20
then we close the IETF transport area, and declare that there shall only be=
=20
UDP and client-to-server TCP from now on :o

What I am really worried however is, if we don't clearly state HOW stateful=
=20
firewalling should be done, or if we do, but vendors ignore us, we'll end u=
p=20
with the same issues as with IPv4+NAT:
=2D UDP working "client-to-client", but with battery-hungry short refresh=20
timers,
=2D TCP only works client-to-server only (so client-to-client congestion co=
ntrol=20
is non-existent at the transport layer),
=2D everything else does not work reliably.

> 2. Or should the opening up of incoming ports go through the OS,
> rather than be signalled directly from applications to the CPE?

I don't understand the question. The OS will always be sitting between the=
=20
application and the CPE in any case, by virtue of providing the socket API,=
=20
the network stacks and drivers, and possibly the local firewall.

> 3. Should a host have the option of signalling to a CPE that it
> doesn't require any filtering?

It would probably be useful in some scenarios.

> Address provisioning
>
> 4. Is implementing DHCPv6 snooping and option insertion, similar to
> what currently happens with DHCP for IPv4, a good option for vendors
> of broadband equipment, or is a provisioning solution where this isn't
> necessary preferable?

The CPE should preserve options it does not know, I suppose, for the sake o=
f=20
extensibility. OTOH, I expect many end devices will stick to ICMPv6 autocon=
f.

> 5. Can we assume the presence of DHCPv6 prefix delegation in CPEs?

On the upstream side, I suppose so.
On the downstream side, it would be needed for chaining of CPEs. We'd proba=
bly=20
need multicast proxying as well for the same reason (see also James=20
architecture proposal).=20

> 6. Can we assume the presence of DHCPv6 address assignment in clients?

No.

> It's not available in most of them now, so how would we get to such a
> state and how soon?

I think we won't get to such a state that we could assume pervasive DHCPv6.=
=20
What's wrong with giving ICMPv6 autoconf for end nodes anyway?

> 7. Is the model where there is a CPE with modem functionality but not
> router functionality a reasonable one?

Maybe it depends on the definition of CPE. There are non-routing modems, an=
d=20
there are SOHO routers without modems, and I assume they'll continue to=20
exist.

> 8. Do we want to ISPs to provide RAs to customers in the case where 6
> =3D no and 7 =3D yes? If not, then what?

Maybe if the end node is dumb and does not do DHCPv6, it could be required =
to=20
need a CPE? I suppose general purpose computers have or will have DHCPv6 at=
=20
some point. Not sure about, say Apple though.

(...)
> DNS
>
> 16. How do we expect customer devices to enter into the DNS?

I am not sure we need DNS here.

> 18. Should IPv6 hosts be prepared to operate without a working reverse
> DNS entry?

They'd better do it, because there are deployed IPv6 networks without rever=
se=20
DNS. Especially if the host uses privacy addresses.

=2D-=20
R=E9mi Denis-Courmont
http://www.remlab.net/




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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Subject: Re: CPEs
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 10:54:16 -0800
To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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On Jan 7, 2008, at 08:11, R=E9mi Denis-Courmont wrote:
> Le Friday 04 January 2008 14:34:38 Iljitsch van Beijnum, vous avez =20
> =E9crit :
>> Security
>>
>> 1. Do we all agree that a model where there is stateful filtering by
>> default, but applications can request incoming sessions is what we
>> should aim for?
>
> It is pretty clear at this point, that there will be stateful =20
> firewalling in
> many SOHO deployments. As such, we clearly need a hole opening =20
> mechanism. Or
> then we close the IETF transport area, and declare that there shall =20=

> only be
> UDP and client-to-server TCP from now on :o
>
> What I am really worried however is, if we don't clearly state HOW =20
> stateful
> firewalling should be done, or if we do, but vendors ignore us, =20
> we'll end up
> with the same issues as with IPv4+NAT:
> - UDP working "client-to-client", but with battery-hungry short =20
> refresh
> timers,
> - TCP only works client-to-server only (so client-to-client =20
> congestion control
> is non-existent at the transport layer),
> - everything else does not work reliably.

I concur.

>> 2. Or should the opening up of incoming ports go through the OS,
>> rather than be signalled directly from applications to the CPE?
>
> I don't understand the question. The OS will always be sitting =20
> between the
> application and the CPE in any case, by virtue of providing the =20
> socket API,
> the network stacks and drivers, and possibly the local firewall.

This is already happening in the OS for IPv4/NAT.  That's where the =20
NAT-PMP and UPnP IGD support is coded.  Application developers aren't =20=

rolling their own implementations of those protocols.  They're =20
relying on the OS to provide them with APIs.

I see no reason to burden application developers with new =20
requirements just to use IPv6 instead of IPv4/NAT.

>> 3. Should a host have the option of signalling to a CPE that it
>> doesn't require any filtering?
>
> It would probably be useful in some scenarios.

No.  No, no, no.  Firewalls don't care what nodes think are their =20
filtering requirements.  Policy is decided by the firewall =20
administrator and enforced in the network middlebox.

The *only* reason for nodes to signal anything to a firewall is to =20
give it a chance to be more transparent than it would otherwise be =20
without the signaling.  Nodes can tell firewalls things like "I'm =20
accepting arbitrary incoming flows at this network address [these =20
transport addresses]."  That allows firewalls to get out of the way =20
*IF* policy allows.  Without such signaling, no policy is possible =20
and stateful firewalls must resort to blocking all incoming flows =20
because they don't know which are solicited and which are not.

>> 5. Can we assume the presence of DHCPv6 prefix delegation in CPEs?

No.  Or, at least, not yet.

>> 6. Can we assume the presence of DHCPv6 address assignment in =20
>> clients?
>
> No.

No.

>> It's not available in most of them now, so how would we get to such a
>> state and how soon?
>
> I think we won't get to such a state that we could assume pervasive =20=

> DHCPv6.
> What's wrong with giving ICMPv6 autoconf for end nodes anyway?

Nothing.

>> 7. Is the model where there is a CPE with modem functionality but not
>> router functionality a reasonable one?
>
> Maybe it depends on the definition of CPE. There are non-routing =20
> modems, and
> there are SOHO routers without modems, and I assume they'll =20
> continue to
> exist.
>
>> 8. Do we want to ISPs to provide RAs to customers in the case where 6
>> =3D no and 7 =3D yes? If not, then what?
>
> Maybe if the end node is dumb and does not do DHCPv6, it could be =20
> required to
> need a CPE? I suppose general purpose computers have or will have =20
> DHCPv6 at
> some point. Not sure about, say Apple though.

Mac OS X does not support DHCP6.  I can't say when or if it ever will.

>> 16. How do we expect customer devices to enter into the DNS?
>
> I am not sure we need DNS here.

It's a luxury item.

>> 18. Should IPv6 hosts be prepared to operate without a working =20
>> reverse
>> DNS entry?
>
> They'd better do it, because there are deployed IPv6 networks =20
> without reverse
> DNS. Especially if the host uses privacy addresses.

We're going to need privacy addresses once IPv6 worm authors start =20
harvesting target addresses from server logs and honeypots.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering






From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 07 16:06:47 2008
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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@windows.microsoft.com>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 13:01:49 -0800
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 <200801071811.41399.rdenis@simphalempin.com>
 <215B974E-E931-4B8E-BD45-63DA8430F40D@apple.com>
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> >> 3. Should a host have the option of signalling to a CPE that it
> >> doesn't require any filtering?
> >
> > It would probably be useful in some scenarios.
>
> No.  No, no, no.  Firewalls don't care what nodes think are their
> filtering requirements.  Policy is decided by the firewall
> administrator and enforced in the network middlebox.

In a "home" environment, and in fact in most SOHO environments, there is no=
 "firewall administrator". You have at best the "reluctant administrator", =
i.e. the one family member charged with rebooting the router when it fails.=
 This is the main difference between "managed" and "unmanaged" environments=
.

In an unmanaged environment, you really cannot assume that the policy is de=
cided by the firewall administrator. In practice, it is placed in the box b=
y the firewall manufacturer, and mostly left untouched by the users. So, if=
 we assume that the firewalls will be closed by default, we can as well ass=
ume that there never will be any incoming TCP connection in the home.

Now, that may be a fine assumption. At least, it is a predictable environme=
nt. We can start from there, implement all P2P services over UDP, and desig=
n some variant of STUN to open the holes. That may well be more productive =
than making stern sounding statements in IETF groups...

-- Christian Huitema






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>> Maybe if the end node is dumb and does not do DHCPv6, it could be 
>> required to
>> need a CPE? I suppose general purpose computers have or will have 
>> DHCPv6 at
>> some point. Not sure about, say Apple though.
> 
> Mac OS X does not support DHCP6.  I can't say when or if it ever will.

I predict extremely strong demand for this from corporate and campus
customers.

    Brian




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Message-ID: <478297A8.1020701@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 08 Jan 2008 10:20:40 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: Shane Kerr <shane@time-travellers.org>
CC: Leo Vegoda <leo.vegoda@icann.org>, 
 IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: CPEs
References: <58BFC685-DA33-418A-A37A-9075509987D4@muada.com> <20080104153255.GF31548@borg.c-l-i.net> <779EB4A7-4073-4F25-8B1A-DBCA1DFCF480@icann.org> <20080107093823.GA6995@borg.c-l-i.net>
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On 2008-01-07 22:38, Shane Kerr wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 07, 2008 at 09:26:26AM +0100, Leo Vegoda wrote:
>> On 4 Jan 2008, at 16:32, Shane Kerr wrote:
>>
>> [...]
>>
>>>> 11. Do we expect ISPs to provide reachability for a new and old
>>>> prefix concurrently when changing prefixes or do ISPs provide
>>>> long-time stable prefixes to IPv6 customers? If "no" on both, then
>>>> how do we avoid disconnected sessions on prefix changes?
>>> Personally I like the model of providing reachability for both old
>>> and new during renumbering. But... since an ISP only gets a few
>>> thousand /48 at a time, they may be faced with resource scarcity,
>>> and not have the space (GROAN!!!!).
>> On the whole, ISPs assign addresses for the period during which you
>> pay them for a service. I doubt there will be any resource scarcity
>> leading to revoked assignments while end-sites continue to pay for
>> service from their ISPs. I don't think an alternative where random /
>> 48s move around between different ASs is a good model to promote.
> 
> Well, the scenerio I'm thinking of does not involve a new AS. For
> example, if your ISP opens a new site closer to your home, they may
> want to route your connectivity into the new site, which could very
> well involve renumbering.
> 
> So, Ilijtsch's question is important.
> 
> I am told that today the best way to do such a migration in IPv4 is
> for ISPs to pick a time to move customers to the new numbers, and use
> ever-decreasing DHCP lease times to insure that users renumber as
> close to that time as possible - but not to overlap the address spaces
> for any time.
> 
> IPv6 was designed to be able to allow end hosts to more-or-less
> painlessly migrate between addresses. I don't know if this has been
> widely tested (I suspect not). Plus, unless there is some clever work
> on both the ISP and customer side, a renumbering can affect the end
> site.
> 
> Again, my preference is to support both old and new addresses during a
> renumbering, but I don't know if IPv6 is mature enough technology,

See RFC 4192.

> or
> if we have enough space after squandering so much of it.

Huh? The canonical model is for multiple prefixes per site;
there isn't any issue about it.

     Brian




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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Subject: Re: CPEs
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:20:02 -0800
To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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On Jan 7, 2008, at 13:18, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> [I wrote:]
>>
>> Mac OS X does not support DHCP6.  I can't say when or if it ever =20
>> will.
>
> I predict extremely strong demand for this from corporate and =20
> campus customers.

I'd say that's an entirely sensible prediction=97 if you were to ask me =20=

while I have a pint in my hand.  I just can't say anything =20
authoritative about future product features.  What we have today is =20
what we have today.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering






From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 07 17:44:24 2008
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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Subject: Re: CPEs
Date: Mon, 7 Jan 2008 14:43:10 -0800
To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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On Jan 7, 2008, at 13:01, Christian Huitema wrote:
>
> In a "home" environment, and in fact in most SOHO environments, =20
> there is no "firewall administrator". You have at best the =20
> "reluctant administrator", i.e. the one family member charged with =20
> rebooting the router when it fails. This is the main difference =20
> between "managed" and "unmanaged" environments.
>
> In an unmanaged environment, you really cannot assume that the =20
> policy is decided by the firewall administrator. In practice, it is =20=

> placed in the box by the firewall manufacturer, and mostly left =20
> untouched by the users. [...]

All quite true.  It still doesn't change the fact that firewalls are =20
where policy is decided and enforced, and nodes should only be =20
required to notify firewalls of their application listeners, and =20
*not* to request permission for their applications to listen.

> So, if we assume that the firewalls will be closed by default, we =20
> can as well assume that there never will be any incoming TCP =20
> connection in the home.
>
> Now, that may be a fine assumption.

I don't believe for a second that UPnP IGD won't be extended to =20
support IPv6 filter control in addition to IPv4/NAT control.  There =20
will be incoming TCP/IPv6 connections to the home environment just =20
like there are incoming TCP/IPv4/NAT connections today.  The question =20=

is whether there will be an IETF recommendation for how they will get =20=

there over IPv6, or if IETF will continue to pretend like it isn't a =20
problem we should be thinking about=97 just like we have with the IPv4/=20=

NAT case for lo these many years.

If IETF wants to embrace UPnP IGD for IPv6, then I would call that an =20=

improvement over the status quo ante.  Not very much of an improvement=20=

=97 mind you=97but it's Better Than Nothing.  Let me ask this question =20=

again to the whole group: does anyone know if UPnP Forum intends to =20
publish their specifications for IGD/IPv6 under terms that IETF can =20
accept as a standards track document?  If so, when?


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering






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Subject: RE: ipv6experiment.com progress update / mailing list
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Kevin Day" <toasty@dragondata.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kevin Day [mailto:toasty@dragondata.com]=20
> Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2008 12:49 AM
> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: ipv6experiment.com progress update / mailing list
>=20
>=20
> Hey, v6 ops community!
>=20
> Last year we announced our intentions of running a large scale "see =20
> what happens when the masses try using ipv6" experiment, described in

> detail at http://www.ipv6experiment.com. While it took a lot longer =20
> than any of us had hoped, we now have just about everything in place =20
> to get started.
>=20
> For the most part, the extent of impact that any of you should see is

> that some of your users who had never used IPv6 before will play with

> it, possibly resulting in increased v6 traffic... be it native, 6to4,

> Teredo or through a tunnel broker such as SixXS. Unless you are =20
> providing v6 to users in some way (native v6 connections, or running =20
> your own Tunnel/Teredo/6to4 relay) any increased traffic will be =20
> purely v4. If you do run v6 of any kind to your users, we're trying to

> make the impact as small as possible while still providing enough =20
> motivation for people to actually try this.

I missed seeing ISATAP on your list, and it is widely
implemented and being used today. Maybe you talking only
about IPv6 traffic that is observable outside of a site?

Thanks - Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com
=20
> However, there have been concerns raised by a few networks that we're

> going to break their v6 backbone by encouraging the masses to download

> large files over v6 over a short timeframe. I personally don't think =20
> that's going to be that much of a problem... If the small number of =20
> people who actually do play with this cause any kind of congestion, =20
> TCP should take care of it within reason. But, I'd like to open a =20
> dialog with those who are worried or interested in the project before

> we begin. I've had a private discussion with the operator of one
large-=20
> ish network who wants to null-route our address space during the =20
> experiment - I've convinced him to talk about it in public on a =20
> mailing list we've set up for the discussion of the project before =20
> doing so.
>=20
> Since most of this isn't really on topic for this mailing list, I'd =20
> like to suggest that anyone who wants to talk about this to hop on our

> new mailing list for the experiment... either to discuss the =20
> methodology/data collection aspect of the experiment itself, it's =20
> impact on your network or anything else.=20
> http://mail.your.org/mailman/listinfo/v6test=20
>   to sign up. Not to try to take away any discussion from this list, =20
> but I think the majority of you guys here aren't that concerned with =20
> the details here, so I'm trying to keep the chatter down.
>=20
> I'll post one more time here before the experiment starts with the =20
> dates/IPs/details just so everyone's properly warned. :)
>=20
> -- Kevin




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From: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: CPEs
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References: <58BFC685-DA33-418A-A37A-9075509987D4@muada.com> <20080104153255.GF31548@borg.c-l-i.net> <779EB4A7-4073-4F25-8B1A-DBCA1DFCF480@icann.org> <20080107093823.GA6995@borg.c-l-i.net> <478297A8.1020701@gmail.com>
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On Tue, Jan 08, 2008 at 10:20:40AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 2008-01-07 22:38, Shane Kerr wrote:
> >
> >Again, my preference is to support both old and new addresses during a
> >renumbering, but I don't know if IPv6 is mature enough technology,
> 
> See RFC 4192.
> 
> >or
> >if we have enough space after squandering so much of it.
> 
> Huh? The canonical model is for multiple prefixes per site;
> there isn't any issue about it.

For some tests run a couple of years ago, see:
	http://www.6net.org/publications/deliverables/D3.6.2.pdf

For a small enterprise, the RFC4192 process basically worked with
the OSes and platforms we used, but that was without any use of DHCPv6
(all RAs/autoconf).

The pain with renumbering lies outside the 'basic' network layer
reconfigurations of RFC4192 though.

-- 
Tim






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On 7 jan 2008, at 19:54, james woodyatt wrote:

>>> 2. Or should the opening up of incoming ports go through the OS,
>>> rather than be signalled directly from applications to the CPE?

>> I don't understand the question. The OS will always be sitting  
>> between the
>> application and the CPE in any case, by virtue of providing the  
>> socket API,
>> the network stacks and drivers, and possibly the local firewall.

> This is already happening in the OS for IPv4/NAT.  That's where the  
> NAT-PMP and UPnP IGD support is coded.  Application developers  
> aren't rolling their own implementations of those protocols.   
> They're relying on the OS to provide them with APIs.

I'm not sure if this is universally true. For instance, I believe that  
Azureus (popular BitTorrent client) has its own uPnP/NAT-PMP code.

> I see no reason to burden application developers with new  
> requirements just to use IPv6 instead of IPv4/NAT.

It would be good if the OS could determine the needs of applications  
and act on those without explicit signalling from the app, yes.

>>> 3. Should a host have the option of signalling to a CPE that it
>>> doesn't require any filtering?

>> It would probably be useful in some scenarios.

> No.  No, no, no.  Firewalls don't care what nodes think are their  
> filtering requirements.  Policy is decided by the firewall  
> administrator and enforced in the network middlebox.

See Christian's comment.

>> They'd better do it, because there are deployed IPv6 networks  
>> without reverse
>> DNS. Especially if the host uses privacy addresses.

> We're going to need privacy addresses once IPv6 worm authors start  
> harvesting target addresses from server logs and honeypots.

Hm, how disposable can we make addresses before the baby goes out with  
the bath water?

But more importantly for this discussion: do we assume that these  
temporary addresses don't get DNS names? I know some people want DHCP  
servers to handle setting up DNS entries. It's not completely  
impossible to do this: you can have a host ask for a specific address  
with an IA option and then the DHCPv6 server still gets to see the  
address even though the host generated it. But there are other ways to  
do it, too. I like the dynamic DNS approach, although this needs to be  
handled carefully because Windows' DDNS implementation is pretty much  
a DDoS attack against the root servers. The forward DNS isn't a big  
problem, although this may need some setting up if the ISP doesn't  
handle it. Reverse should be easy: just let address X change the DNS  
entry for address X. But as an ISP, I would prefer to simply delegate  
the reverse DNS to the user's server for reduced headaches.




From hartman@lamer.com Tue Jan 08 11:28:36 2008
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From: "bartholemy jole" <hartman@lamer.com>
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Subject: '08 Collection of Prada Gucci Dior Chanel & More Top Designer Shoes
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 08 11:46:39 2008
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From: "Bound, Jim" <Jim.Bound@hp.com>
To: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>, IPv6 Operations
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Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 16:44:29 +0000
Subject: RE: CPEs
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Response to Iljitsch mail below.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Iljitsch van Beijnum
> Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 7:35 AM
> To: IPv6 Operations
> Subject: CPEs
>
> Let me tackle three issues related to CPEs in one monster message.
> These issues are:
>
> - firewalling
> - address provisioning
> - IPv4/IPv6 transition/coexistance
>
> When I say "CPE" that can both mean a cable/DSL modem, a home
> router with integrated cable/DSL modem or a home router with
> no modem functionality. I'll call them CPE(m), CPE(r) or
> CPE(rm) where appropriate. If they're managed by the ISP I
> may add -ISP, if they're managed by the end-user/consumer I
> may add -USER. Note that all of this applies to consumer
> installations.

Well defined.

>
> First, let me start with a few sentences on my philosophy in
> this area and then a list of issues that we need to figure
> out so the industry can move forward.
>
> CPE philosophy
> --------------
>
> Because broadband consumers span the gamut from completely
> ignorant about even the most superficial technical issues to
> people who actually build those CPEs, the most important
> thing is that a CPE can address all reasonable use cases
> along that gamut. In other words: an expert user shouldn't be
> forced to live with what's best for that granny who doesn't
> even have a PC but does have some IP enabled devices such as
> picture frames or sewing machines, but on the other hand, the
> granny shouldn't be forced to become an expert.

I agree.

>
> What this means is that the defaults are such that non-expert
> users get the tradeoff between security, usability and other
> aspects that is most appropriate (which would be the default
> settings), but experts get to override these defaults. At the
> very least, it MUST be possible to make the CPE act transparently.

I agree,

>
> Security
>
> As for security: these days, any IP device MUST be ready to
> be connected to a hostile network, which includes the open internet.
> However, because this wasn't true in the past and because
> removing a layer of "security" is scary, it's not possible to
> market CPEs that don't do any filtering. This means that
> there must be filtering, but since it doesn't do anything
> useful in practice and it does get in the way, this filtering
> must be the minimum that will be accepted by the market. That
> would almost certainly be the level of filtering that is de
> facto provided in today's IPv4 CPEs, which is: outgoing
> sessions and related return traffic is allowed (stateful
> filtering) and applications get to open up TCP/UDP ports for
> incoming traffic.

One filter I believe will become required will be end-to-end IPsec and it i=
s just let through, but for corporate and government markets there could be=
come decrypt capability supporting the media line rates without performance=
 degradation, and I believe we will see this form of DPI in the home CPE to=
o.  The other data point I see happening is as peer-2-peer moves further us=
ers will want the option to encrypt at their device to an application funct=
ion and other devices, thus the filter is if IPsec and secure (big question=
 for sure) then let it pass. Ergo no filters at all for this case.  The fir=
ewall becomes a security manager with far more intelligence than today.

>
> Now obviously it's possible to argue that this isn't a good
> way of filtering (in both directions, it can be too much or
> too little), but since that is what you get with pretty much
> any current CPE those discussions are largely moot. The only
> changes that are possible are those that BOTH improve
> security AND usability at the same time. Any change that
> improves one over the other will be seen as unacceptable by one camp.

The above is key per Fred's call to action that started this thread and to =
determine what we in the IETF can provide to support the Alain new social c=
ontract do we only consider today or do we think out of the box a bit too? =
 Also I dc not believe the IETF can provide a deployment exact case for the=
 new social contract that the market must decide and then implement all we =
can do is provide the ops tools or possibly new protocol work to assist it =
in the IETF.  We need to keep our scope correct and responsibility within t=
he IETF for what we do as an SDO correct.

>
> Transition
>
> Ideally, a CPE will provide both IPv4 and IPv6 service to
> hosts connected to it, regardless of whether the ISP provides
> IPv4, IPv6 or both. So that probably means: regular IPv4
> operation, native IPv6, 6to4, Teredo, NAT-PT... It would be
> even better if IPv4 hosts behind the CPE could make use of
> IPv6 services and the other way around.
> (Maybe using an HTTP(S) proxy?)

Again we cannot force this but a phenomena for IPv6 that needs to change is=
 that the provider needs to provide dual-stacked services not just IPv4 or =
IPv6 native only.  The question is do we in v6ops assume the provider provi=
des dual stack services as an assumption for the work threads Fred suggeste=
d?

>
> Multiple CPEs
>
> Obviously if there is a CPE(m) then it should also be
> possible to add a CPE(r), but users may have reasons to have
> multiple CPE(r)s, possibly connected in parallel to a CPE(m)
> but having one CPE(r) connect to the LAN side of another
> CPE(r) would also be a possibility, and even the only
> possible option if there is a CPE(mr). Although security
> policies may prohibit certain applications to work across a
> CPE(r), service discovery and addressing should be
> transparent within the entire site.

I think it is inevitable that CPE 'r' and 'm' because of the DPI end-to-end=
 trust scenario I describe above which I believe is a requirement for the m=
arket.  I am not sure addressing can in reality be transparent but it would=
 be nice if that were true.

>
> Questions
> ---------
>
> Security
>
> 1. Do we all agree that a model where there is stateful
> filtering by default, but applications can request incoming
> sessions is what we should aim for?

I believe the default will be statefull but option should exist to turn off=
 the default for many reasons in addition to the one listed above.

>
> 2. Or should the opening up of incoming ports go through the
> OS, rather than be signalled directly from applications to the CPE?

The default should go through the OS as the default I am thinking peformanc=
e and transparency as the reasons.

>
> 3. Should a host have the option of signalling to a CPE that
> it doesn't require any filtering?

Absolutely yes or as I state above permit IPsec to pass through.

>
> Address provisioning
>
> 4. Is implementing DHCPv6 snooping and option insertion,
> similar to what currently happens with DHCP for IPv4, a good
> option for vendors of broadband equipment, or is a
> provisioning solution where this isn't necessary preferable?

I am not parsing entirely why this is a valid question for CPE edge, but ca=
n see it as server in the home?  But, for the home environment I strongly s=
uggest that stateless IPv6 be used so can you re-phrase the question at lea=
st for me?  Thanks.

>
> 5. Can we assume the presence of DHCPv6 prefix delegation in CPEs?

No. That should not be assumed at all.  We must consider all the options.  =
See renumbering RFC 4192.

>
> 6. Can we assume the presence of DHCPv6 address assignment in clients?
> It's not available in most of them now, so how would we get
> to such a state and how soon?

For the home or mobile devices I don't think so stateless will be cheaper t=
o build/ship and configure, and deploy for Mobile IPv6 as one example.  DHC=
Pv6 is for enterprise networks and ISPs is my view and I believe a requirem=
ent for all clients in those market sectors today for many reasons.

>
> 7. Is the model where there is a CPE with modem functionality
> but not router functionality a reasonable one?

I don't think so and this should be transparent to v6ops mission for this t=
hread is my input.

>
> 8. Do we want to ISPs to provide RAs to customers in the case
> where 6 =3D no and 7 =3D yes? If not, then what?

I think this is not our business RAs are RAs we must assume CPE devices hav=
e the intelligence to process any RA.

>
> 9. If 8, then what is the value of the M and O bits?

These would only be valid for CPE devices if DHCPv6 prefix delegation is us=
ed and though I think that will happen we should not assume this as the def=
ault but cover both.  I won't respond here on the M and O context or indire=
ction as that could be huge rat hole at this point.

>
> 10. If 5 and a user adds more than one routing CPE, how does
> the prefix delegation work? The "first" routing CPE requests
> a prefix from the ISP and then provides sub-prefixes to the
> other CPE(r)s, or does each CPE get a prefix from the ISP? In
> the latter case, how do CPE(r)s know what routes to install
> for prefixes held by other CPE(r)s within the site?

We must define all possibilities and use cases and then the market and prod=
ucts will decide our job is to cover all scenarios.

>
> 11. Do we expect ISPs to provide reachability for a new and
> old prefix concurrently when changing prefixes or do ISPs
> provide long-time stable prefixes to IPv6 customers? If "no"
> on both, then how do we avoid disconnected sessions on prefix changes?

Both will happen our job is to define the ramifications of both scenarios. =
 That means we dive into the technical details on how to do this as part of=
 the work.

>
> 12. How do we avoid problems caused by customer equipment MAC
> addresses clashing with that of other customers?

I really hope we don't have to work on this in v6ops or in the IETF this is=
 a standard problem regardless of IPv6 or IPv4?  Or am I missing the specif=
ic IPv6 issue?  Thanks.

>
> 13. How many devices are allowed to connect to a CPE(m)?

Absolutely none of the IETF's business.  Sorry this is a product feature se=
t for the vendors.

>
> 14. What kind of addressing is used between the ISP and the
> first CPE(r)? Global customer specific, global shared between
> customers, link local only?

Again all will be used we need to define what the technical details are for=
 each case if we want to take on that much work.

>
> 15. How does DAD work on the subnet between an ISP and customers?
> Should hosts and CPEs ignore their own DAD packets when they
> loop back to them?

No one ignores DAD that is required to use DAD per the specs.

>
> DNS
>
> 16. How do we expect customer devices to enter into the DNS?

As they do today.

>
> 17. If the answer to 16 is dynamic DNS updates, how does the
> authentication work?

DNSSEC or IPsec or other methods but this would be good to identify the opt=
ions.

>
> 18. Should IPv6 hosts be prepared to operate without a
> working reverse DNS entry?

Sure this is done today with IPv4.

>
> Third party devices
>
> 19. How do users authorize third-party devices (ranging from
> gas meters to set top boxes) use of their broadband connection?

Sorry not the IETF's  business.

>
> 20. How can third party devices be prevented from observing
> both data traffic and service discovery?

This is done through various means today but falls under reverse-intrusion-=
detection of the devices. Not clear this is v6ops business?

>
> 21. How can third party device traffic be limited and/or given QoS?

OK this begins to boil the ocean for the list of things to do and QoS shoul=
d be dealt with out of v6ops is what we should say in v6ops.

Nice Job on this Iljitsch thanks
/jim
>
>




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 08 11:46:54 2008
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From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
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Subject: Re: CPEs
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 17:44:03 +0100
References: <58BFC685-DA33-418A-A37A-9075509987D4@muada.com> <200801071811.41399.rdenis@simphalempin.com> <215B974E-E931-4B8E-BD45-63DA8430F40D@apple.com> <AFE0AC8DCDE68842B94E8EC69D5F21D635EB1205AF@NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <B71F3B5D-4605-4F62-917E-550C4995A6B6@apple.com>
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On 7 jan 2008, at 23:43, james woodyatt wrote:

> I don't believe for a second that UPnP IGD won't be extended to =20
> support IPv6 filter control in addition to IPv4/NAT control.  There =20=

> will be incoming TCP/IPv6 connections to the home environment just =20
> like there are incoming TCP/IPv4/NAT connections today.  The =20
> question is whether there will be an IETF recommendation for how =20
> they will get there over IPv6, or if IETF will continue to pretend =20
> like it isn't a problem we should be thinking about=97 just like we =20=

> have with the IPv4/NAT case for lo these many years.

> If IETF wants to embrace UPnP IGD for IPv6, then I would call that =20
> an improvement over the status quo ante.  Not very much of an =20
> improvement=97 mind you=97but it's Better Than Nothing.  Let me ask =
this =20
> question again to the whole group: does anyone know if UPnP Forum =20
> intends to publish their specifications for IGD/IPv6 under terms =20
> that IETF can accept as a standards track document?  If so, when?

Hm, doesn't this protocol have a worse-than-average track record =20
security-wise? I even remember having to update my computer because of =20=

this fairly recently...

The IETF has some experience in designing middlebox management =20
protocols and IPv6 is a core IETF technology. Does it make sense to =20
outsource something like this?=




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Subject: Should CPE allow all IPsec through? Was: Re: CPEs
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[Response to other issues will follow]

On 8 jan 2008, at 17:44, Bound, Jim wrote:

> One filter I believe will become required will be end-to-end IPsec  
> and it is just let through, but for corporate and government markets  
> there could become decrypt capability supporting the media line  
> rates without performance degradation, and I believe we will see  
> this form of DPI in the home CPE too.  The other data point I see  
> happening is as peer-2-peer moves further users will want the option  
> to encrypt at their device to an application function and other  
> devices, thus the filter is if IPsec and secure (big question for  
> sure) then let it pass. Ergo no filters at all for this case.  The  
> firewall becomes a security manager with far more intelligence than  
> today.

There has been some talk about letting all IPsec through regardless of  
statefulness, but I don't remember a clear conclusion.

However, this does seem to be an attractive option in the sense that  
it allows for a way to have peer-to-peer communication without giving  
up security. It would probably still need some selling to some  
security-conscious groups, but a good argument there would be that  
there is no reasonable way that an attacker could get anywhere without  
first negotiating a security association, but if we don't implement  
this, that simply means applications will use less secure peer-to-peer  
mechanisms.




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From: "Bound, Jim" <Jim.Bound@hp.com>
To: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 17:11:18 +0000
Subject: RE: Should CPE allow all IPsec through? Was: Re: CPEs
Thread-Topic: Should CPE allow all IPsec through? Was: Re: CPEs
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ack I concur with you on the issue you articulate well below.
thanks
/jim

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Iljitsch van Beijnum [mailto:iljitsch@muada.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2008 12:05 PM
> To: Bound, Jim
> Cc: IPv6 Operations
> Subject: Should CPE allow all IPsec through? Was: Re: CPEs
>
> [Response to other issues will follow]
>
> On 8 jan 2008, at 17:44, Bound, Jim wrote:
>
> > One filter I believe will become required will be
> end-to-end IPsec and
> > it is just let through, but for corporate and government
> markets there
> > could become decrypt capability supporting the media line rates
> > without performance degradation, and I believe we will see
> this form
> > of DPI in the home CPE too.  The other data point I see
> happening is
> > as peer-2-peer moves further users will want the option to
> encrypt at
> > their device to an application function and other devices, thus the
> > filter is if IPsec and secure (big question for
> > sure) then let it pass. Ergo no filters at all for this case.  The
> > firewall becomes a security manager with far more intelligence than
> > today.
>
> There has been some talk about letting all IPsec through
> regardless of statefulness, but I don't remember a clear conclusion.
>
> However, this does seem to be an attractive option in the
> sense that it allows for a way to have peer-to-peer
> communication without giving up security. It would probably
> still need some selling to some security-conscious groups,
> but a good argument there would be that there is no
> reasonable way that an attacker could get anywhere without
> first negotiating a security association, but if we don't
> implement this, that simply means applications will use less
> secure peer-to-peer mechanisms.
>




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Le Tuesday 08 January 2008 18:44:03 Iljitsch van Beijnum, vous avez =E9crit=
=A0:
> Hm, doesn't this protocol have a worse-than-average track record
> security-wise? I even remember having to update my computer because of
> this fairly recently...

As much as I am NOT a fan of UPnP, I believe the security issues are either:
=2D implementation errors,
=2D limits of the on-link trust model.

I would not consider security as the main disadvantage of UPnP. Of course, =
we=20
can do better, for instance using a challenge-response scheme to validate t=
he=20
address ownership. And we may want to support learning of the firewall=20
gateway address using DHCPv6 so that it can be used in network topology (I =
am=20
thinking about wide area radio networks in particular) without multicast.

> The IETF has some experience in designing middlebox management
> protocols

But the track record is deployment-wise worse than that of UPnP IGD.

I would much rather have an IETF protocol =E0 la ALD for IPv6 firewall cont=
rol,=20
than UPnP IGD 2.0. But I'd also rather have IGD 2.0 than nothing, if vendor=
s=20
decide to go for IGD 2.0. I guess that's what James meant as well.

> and IPv6 is a core IETF=20
> Does it make sense to outsource something like this?

We cannot ban other entities from doing it, can we?

=2D-=20
R=E9mi Denis-Courmont
http://www.remlab.net/




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From: "Dan Wing" <dwing@cisco.com>
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        "'Bound, Jim'" <jim.bound@hp.com>
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> However, this does seem to be an attractive option in the sense that  
> it allows for a way to have peer-to-peer communication 
> without giving  
> up security. It would probably still need some selling to some  
> security-conscious groups, but a good argument there would be that  
> there is no reasonable way that an attacker could get 
> anywhere without  
> first negotiating a security association, but if we don't implement  
> this, that simply means applications will use less secure 
> peer-to-peer mechanisms.

Or that those less secure peer-to-peer applications will run
over UDP/500 and protocol 50.

-d





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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Subject: Re: Should CPE allow all IPsec through? Was: Re: CPEs
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 14:10:00 -0800
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On Jan 8, 2008, at 12:00, Dan Wing wrote:
>
> Or that those less secure peer-to-peer applications will run over  
> UDP/500 and protocol 50.

Yes, but I don't think that's where the resistance to the idea of  
allow udp/500 and proto/50 to pass from exterior to interior by  
default originates.  I think the resistance originates from the very  
simple (and stupid) expectation that the default rules for all  
firewalls is to disallow unsolicited traffic from the exterior to  
reach interior nodes.  Making an exception for udp/500 and proto/50  
involves *thinking* about why those packets are "safe" and not any  
others.  Thinking is hard and exceptions are complicated, making  
everything difficult to understand.

That said, I will note that the current CPE simple security I-D  
recommends that unsolicited udp/500 and proto/50 be allowed to pass  
from the exterior to interior nodes by default.  (The specific  
recommendations are R16 and R17.)

Is there a consensus in the working group that these recommendations  
should be reversed?


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering






From bruce@onelist.com Tue Jan 08 18:31:16 2008
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Subject: Re: Should CPE allow all IPsec through? Was: Re: CPEs
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Hmm. Dumb question.

It seems to me that there is an excellent attack in this. If I know  
that a given address (perhaps found in the envelope of an email I  
have observed) is populated and attempt to open an IPsec session, I  
consume some amount of computing resource. If I do that a lot, I can  
consume a large quantity of computing resource. I can obviously also  
consume other resources including bandwidth of various kinds.

There are some mechanisms that we use in mail filtering, in which we  
identify a relatively small set of IP addresses that are highly  
likely to be business partners on matters of business, and with all  
others we apply some level of prejudice - known nogoodnicks have  
their SYN ignored, and unknowns get a higher level of scrutiny than  
common business partners. My IT department tells me that "ignoring  
SYNs" dumps about 75% of traffic to Cisco, and the additional  
scrutiny dumps over 80% of the rest before it ever gets to the MUA. I  
in my case the final MUA (the beysian filter in my email client) is  
still dumping an average of 58 emails a day, which if the IT folks'  
statistics right means that they are sheilding me from something on  
the order of 2000/day. I can tell you of days (SOBIG.F comes to mind)  
in which I received over 6000 emails, mostly junk, in a matter of a  
couple of hours, so that doesn't seem too far out in the weeds.

I'm envisioning the same basic attack, but in setting up IPsec  
sessions. I wonder what the best approach would be. I have little to  
no expectation that my Infosec department is going to even *think*  
about opening the firewall to let that class of attack through - they  
would view the suggestion as somewhere between idiocy and lunacy. 58  
spurious sessions getting through and not being about to authenticate  
with my system in the course of a day is one thing (still high, but  
survivable); a focused attack of multiple thousands of sessions per  
day ongoing 24X7 is simply not on.

How would you suggest preventing that attack from ever getting to the  
host and retain the ability to connect into the host from outside the  
domain?

The thing that comes to mind depends on frequently-changed privacy  
addresses - if I use a previously-unused privacy address for every  
minute during which I open new sessions and let old ones expire,  
pulling addresses out of emails won't be much of an attack surface.  
But that doesn't address any matter in which the host is legitimately  
expecting to be contacted from outside its domain, and it still  
leaves the attack on the router on that LAN.

On Jan 8, 2008, at 9:04 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:

> [Response to other issues will follow]
>
> On 8 jan 2008, at 17:44, Bound, Jim wrote:
>
>> One filter I believe will become required will be end-to-end IPsec  
>> and it is just let through, but for corporate and government  
>> markets there could become decrypt capability supporting the media  
>> line rates without performance degradation, and I believe we will  
>> see this form of DPI in the home CPE too.  The other data point I  
>> see happening is as peer-2-peer moves further users will want the  
>> option to encrypt at their device to an application function and  
>> other devices, thus the filter is if IPsec and secure (big  
>> question for sure) then let it pass. Ergo no filters at all for  
>> this case.  The firewall becomes a security manager with far more  
>> intelligence than today.
>
> There has been some talk about letting all IPsec through regardless  
> of statefulness, but I don't remember a clear conclusion.
>
> However, this does seem to be an attractive option in the sense  
> that it allows for a way to have peer-to-peer communication without  
> giving up security. It would probably still need some selling to  
> some security-conscious groups, but a good argument there would be  
> that there is no reasonable way that an attacker could get anywhere  
> without first negotiating a security association, but if we don't  
> implement this, that simply means applications will use less secure  
> peer-to-peer mechanisms.
>





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On 8 jan 2008, at 17:44, Bound, Jim wrote:

>> Now obviously it's possible to argue that this isn't a good
>> way of filtering (in both directions, it can be too much or
>> too little), but since that is what you get with pretty much
>> any current CPE those discussions are largely moot. The only
>> changes that are possible are those that BOTH improve
>> security AND usability at the same time. Any change that
>> improves one over the other will be seen as unacceptable by one camp.

> The above is key per Fred's call to action that started this thread  
> and to determine what we in the IETF can provide to support the  
> Alain new social contract do we only consider today or do we think  
> out of the box a bit too?  Also I dc not believe the IETF can  
> provide a deployment exact case for the new social contract that the  
> market must decide and then implement all we can do is provide the  
> ops tools or possibly new protocol work to assist it in the IETF.   
> We need to keep our scope correct and responsibility within the IETF  
> for what we do as an SDO correct.

The way I see it, we pretty much have all the protocols that we need.  
We probably need one or two additional ones, but at this stage, new  
protocols should be the exception rather than the rule. What we're  
missing is a deployment model, which is something close to Alain's  
social contract. With IPv4, CPE vendors have a fairly good handle on  
what to expect from ISPs, and ISPs know what to expect from their  
customer's hosts and CPEs. With IPv6, that's not the case, and the  
fact that we expect more than a single address to be given out to a  
customer and we have several ways to provision these addresses defined  
make this more complicated than with IPv4.

I'm pretty sure the IETF doesn't have all the answers here, but I  
don't see any other organization stepping in, so I guess we'll have to  
come up with something. Obviously that must be something that makes  
sense in the grand scheme of IETF/IPv6 things, and it must be  
something that the vendors that come to the IETF support. That's the  
part we can do in v6ops for the most part. But we also need ISPs and  
probably organizations like the DSL Forum to come on board. I'm not  
100% how we can accomplish that, but I think it will help if we can at  
least agree on a good number of issues here. A wide range of  
viewpoints is represented within the IETF, so rough consensus here  
probably means that we have something fairly solid.

>> Transition
>>

> Again we cannot force this but a phenomena for IPv6 that needs to  
> change is that the provider needs to provide dual-stacked services  
> not just IPv4 or IPv6 native only.  The question is do we in v6ops  
> assume the provider provides dual stack services as an assumption  
> for the work threads Fred suggested?

There is a difference between dual stack services and dual stack  
network access. (Hopefully improved) NAT-PT does the former but not  
the latter. I'd say we should probably not assume dual stack from the  
ISP because being able to support a single stack model makes the  
solution stronger.

>> 3. Should a host have the option of signalling to a CPE that
>> it doesn't require any filtering?

> Absolutely yes or as I state above permit IPsec to pass through.

It seems we have yet to reach consensus, rough or otherwise, on this  
point...

>> 4. Is implementing DHCPv6 snooping and option insertion,
>> similar to what currently happens with DHCP for IPv4, a good
>> option for vendors of broadband equipment, or is a
>> provisioning solution where this isn't necessary preferable?

> I am not parsing entirely why this is a valid question for CPE edge,  
> but can see it as server in the home?  But, for the home environment  
> I strongly suggest that stateless IPv6 be used so can you re-phrase  
> the question at least for me?  Thanks.

With IPv4 broadband aggregation equipment snoops DHCP and inserts an  
option that holds some kind of port identifier. Obviously something  
very similar can be done for DHCPv6, but if this is hard to implement,  
it may be useful to consider alternatives.

>> 7. Is the model where there is a CPE with modem functionality
>> but not router functionality a reasonable one?

> I don't think so and this should be transparent to v6ops mission for  
> this thread is my input.

Reason for the question: if ISPs insist on CPEs with modem and router  
functionality integrated, we can skip some issues (RAs from ISP to  
customer) but that means the ISP - CPE interface becomes more  
important because if it doesn't work right the user is left without  
recourse.

>> 9. If 8, then what is the value of the M and O bits?

> These would only be valid for CPE devices if DHCPv6 prefix  
> delegation is used and though I think that will happen we should not  
> assume this as the default but cover both.  I won't respond here on  
> the M and O context or indirection as that could be huge rat hole at  
> this point.

If we don't address the M/O issue this means the CPE will have to  
initiate DHCPv6 prefix delegation always.

>> 12. How do we avoid problems caused by customer equipment MAC
>> addresses clashing with that of other customers?

> I really hope we don't have to work on this in v6ops or in the IETF  
> this is a standard problem regardless of IPv6 or IPv4?  Or am I  
> missing the specific IPv6 issue?  Thanks.

It's not our issue, but it's something that could impact what we can  
and can't do. For instance, "link layer NAT" that was mentioned as a  
solution to this issue requires an ND ALG.

>> 13. How many devices are allowed to connect to a CPE(m)?

> Absolutely none of the IETF's business.  Sorry this is a product  
> feature set for the vendors.

It's more an ISP issue. If ISPs want this to be exactly one, vendors  
can build in logic that avoids problems when a user tries to connect  
multiple devices anyway.

>> 14. What kind of addressing is used between the ISP and the
>> first CPE(r)? Global customer specific, global shared between
>> customers, link local only?

> Again all will be used we need to define what the technical details  
> are for each case if we want to take on that much work.

I don't think anyone has a pressing need for this to be any particular  
way, they just want things to work. If we can recommend an optimal  
choice, that makes life simpler for everyone.

>> 15. How does DAD work on the subnet between an ISP and customers?
>> Should hosts and CPEs ignore their own DAD packets when they
>> loop back to them?

> No one ignores DAD that is required to use DAD per the specs.

I think the spec is unclear here. If I send a DAD ND packet out for my  
IPv6 address and I then receive such a packet also for my address, but  
it turns out that this was a copy of my own packet that looped back in  
a way that isn't obvious locally, then assuming the address is in use  
by someone else is not a good idea, because that limits layer 2  
topologies for no good reason. A simple check to see whether the  
source MAC address is the local MAC address can solve this.

>> DNS

>> 16. How do we expect customer devices to enter into the DNS?

> As they do today.

Today ISPs often just give a name to every address. If you get that  
address, you get the name that goes with it. However, in IPv6 you  
can't populate a /32 with 2^96 DNS names so this will have to happen  
in some other way.

>> 19. How do users authorize third-party devices (ranging from
>> gas meters to set top boxes) use of their broadband connection?

> Sorry not the IETF's  business.

True. But the answer is important for us: if it's "put them in a  
separate subnet" this means the CPE model must support multiple subnets.




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Subject: Re: Should CPE allow all IPsec through? Was: Re: CPEs
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 11:58:00 +0100
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On 9 jan 2008, at 2:07, Fred Baker wrote:

> It seems to me that there is an excellent attack in this. If I know  
> that a given address (perhaps found in the envelope of an email I  
> have observed) is populated and attempt to open an IPsec session, I  
> consume some amount of computing resource. If I do that a lot, I can  
> consume a large quantity of computing resource. I can obviously also  
> consume other resources including bandwidth of various kinds.

Bandwidth is not an issue: under normal circumstances, the bandwidth  
between the ISP and the CPE is the bottleneck, so filtering by the CPE  
doesn't help against an attacker trying to fill up the available  
bandwidth.

I suppose it's possible that an attacker gets to use up CPU resources  
on the receiving system, but only if that system has an IPsec  
implementation that doesn't have any protection against that. There  
are two types of IPsec packets (well, three really): the UDP port 500  
IKE/ISAKMP protocol for setting up security associations and the data  
packets that are signed and/or encrypted (ESP or AH). If there has  
been no SA negotation and no SAs have been created through some other  
mechanism, the SPI in the ESP or AH packets won't match existing state  
so the packets will be rejected without much work on the receiver's  
part. So the only avenue of attack is IKE/ISAKMP. I'm not intimately  
familiar with that, but it seems to me that a non-server host would  
know who it wants to communicate with in advance, and reject any SA  
establishment attempts from entities that present identities that  
don't match those that are expected.

The spam analogy doesn't apply here for several reasons. First of all,  
spam goes to servers. If you are sitting at a random IPv6 address, the  
chances of a spammer contacting you to deliver spam are incredibly  
tiny. (I don't even think they bother to scan the IPv4 address space  
for places to deliver spam.) Apart from that, the reason that spam  
exists is that it gets seen by people and leads to separation of a  
user from his money in one way or another in a small percentage of all  
cases. Spurious IPsec packets don't do that.

The reason to not want IPsec to go through stateful firewalls can be  
either:

1. DoS risks
2. Penetration risks

I can't definitively say that those two risks round down to zero, but  
I am fairly confident that if there is a single protocol that we can  
allow through safely, IPsec is that protocol. It would be helpful to  
hear from IPsec experts and vendors of OSes with IPsec, though.




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Responses in line and I maintained only previous text that had to be kept f=
rom me for context in my view.


> The way I see it, we pretty much have all the protocols that we need.
> We probably need one or two additional ones, but at this
> stage, new protocols should be the exception rather than the
> rule. What we're missing is a deployment model, which is
> something close to Alain's social contract. With IPv4, CPE
> vendors have a fairly good handle on what to expect from
> ISPs, and ISPs know what to expect from their customer's
> hosts and CPEs. With IPv6, that's not the case, and the fact
> that we expect more than a single address to be given out to
> a customer and we have several ways to provision these
> addresses defined make this more complicated than with IPv4.
>
> I'm pretty sure the IETF doesn't have all the answers here,
> but I don't see any other organization stepping in, so I
> guess we'll have to come up with something. Obviously that
> must be something that makes sense in the grand scheme of
> IETF/IPv6 things, and it must be something that the vendors
> that come to the IETF support. That's the part we can do in
> v6ops for the most part. But we also need ISPs and probably
> organizations like the DSL Forum to come on board. I'm not
> 100% how we can accomplish that, but I think it will help if
> we can at least agree on a good number of issues here. A wide
> range of viewpoints is represented within the IETF, so rough
> consensus here probably means that we have something fairly solid.

I think the above is a good thing for the IETF to and present an IETF deplo=
yment model.  But realize deployment models will be presented and prelimina=
ry ones have been by others such as the IPv6 Forum, ATIS, 3GPP, 3GA, WIMAX =
Forum, etc.  The IETF will a view and an important one but not the only one=
.

>
> >> Transition
>
> There is a difference between dual stack services and dual
> stack network access. (Hopefully improved) NAT-PT does the
> former but not the latter. I'd say we should probably not
> assume dual stack from the ISP because being able to support
> a single stack model makes the solution stronger.
>
> >> 3. Should a host have the option of signalling to a CPE that it
> >> doesn't require any filtering?
>
> > Absolutely yes or as I state above permit IPsec to pass through.
>
> It seems we have yet to reach consensus, rough or otherwise,
> on this point...

Again there will be other views of deployment for security options in the m=
arket and one size does not fit all. IPsec end-to-end where all that is see=
n is the IP header causes no more attacks than currently but it does put pr=
essure on routers, switches, servers+storage, CPE, and other edge devices t=
o compete with the emerging high-end processor DPI vendors (both hardware a=
nd software) which will enable end-to-end IPsec quite well.  What we need t=
o do for a deployment model is speak to it objectively without vendor agend=
as, market agendas, or other biases.

On DS or DS Services I strongly believe that the Provider edge must support=
 IPv6 services over IPv4 in addition to domiant IPv6 native attached virtua=
l links to support emerging use of IPv6.

>
> >> 4. Is implementing DHCPv6 snooping and option insertion,
> similar to
> >> what currently happens with DHCP for IPv4, a good option
> for vendors
> >> of broadband equipment, or is a provisioning solution where this
> >> isn't necessary preferable?
>
> > I am not parsing entirely why this is a valid question for
> CPE edge,
> > but can see it as server in the home?  But, for the home
> environment I
> > strongly suggest that stateless IPv6 be used so can you
> re-phrase the
> > question at least for me?  Thanks.
>
> With IPv4 broadband aggregation equipment snoops DHCP and
> inserts an option that holds some kind of port identifier.
> Obviously something very similar can be done for DHCPv6, but
> if this is hard to implement, it may be useful to consider
> alternatives.

Seems like a hack to me because IPv4 cannot perform the same form of statel=
ess autoconfiguration that IPv6 does inherently within the architecture and=
 most implementations I am aware of and one of IPv6 significant technical a=
dvantages over IPv4 that has not been back ported to IPv4.  So why not use =
this advantage will be me position once we begin to work on the model if th=
at is our v6ops course.

>
> >> 7. Is the model where there is a CPE with modem
> functionality but not
> >> router functionality a reasonable one?
>
> > I don't think so and this should be transparent to v6ops
> mission for
> > this thread is my input.
>
> Reason for the question: if ISPs insist on CPEs with modem
> and router functionality integrated, we can skip some issues
> (RAs from ISP to
> customer) but that means the ISP - CPE interface becomes more
> important because if it doesn't work right the user is left
> without recourse.

True but I still think that is transparent to the modem and this is really =
how are RAs/RSs going to work for a home environment.

Important question is this work or model to be only for the home CPE end an=
d not other target markets for IPv6 deployment?

>
> >> 9. If 8, then what is the value of the M and O bits?
>
> > These would only be valid for CPE devices if DHCPv6 prefix
> delegation
> > is used and though I think that will happen we should not
> assume this
> > as the default but cover both.  I won't respond here on the M and O
> > context or indirection as that could be huge rat hole at this point.
>
> If we don't address the M/O issue this means the CPE will
> have to initiate DHCPv6 prefix delegation always.

Agree and the default I would suggest is stateless unless the bits are set.

>
> >> 12. How do we avoid problems caused by customer equipment MAC
> >> addresses clashing with that of other customers?
>
> > I really hope we don't have to work on this in v6ops or in the IETF
> > this is a standard problem regardless of IPv6 or IPv4?  Or am I
> > missing the specific IPv6 issue?  Thanks.
>
> It's not our issue, but it's something that could impact what
> we can and can't do. For instance, "link layer NAT" that was
> mentioned as a solution to this issue requires an ND ALG.

OK but that is truly ugly and I cannot see any reason for a link-layer NAT =
just implement device drivers to handle decap/encap/translation/exclusive-o=
r-rehash etc. and don't break the IP Layer.  That way v6ops is transparent =
within a model.

>
> >> 13. How many devices are allowed to connect to a CPE(m)?
>
> > Absolutely none of the IETF's business.  Sorry this is a product
> > feature set for the vendors.
>
> It's more an ISP issue. If ISPs want this to be exactly one,
> vendors can build in logic that avoids problems when a user
> tries to connect multiple devices anyway.

Yep but still not the IETFs business.

>
> >> 14. What kind of addressing is used between the ISP and the first
> >> CPE(r)? Global customer specific, global shared between customers,
> >> link local only?
>
> > Again all will be used we need to define what the technical details
> > are for each case if we want to take on that much work.
>
> I don't think anyone has a pressing need for this to be any
> particular way, they just want things to work. If we can
> recommend an optimal choice, that makes life simpler for everyone.

That is fair to make a recommendation but not standards-track but informati=
onal or BCP.

>
> >> 15. How does DAD work on the subnet between an ISP and customers?
> >> Should hosts and CPEs ignore their own DAD packets when they loop
> >> back to them?
>
> > No one ignores DAD that is required to use DAD per the specs.
>
> I think the spec is unclear here. If I send a DAD ND packet out for my
> IPv6 address and I then receive such a packet also for my
> address, but it turns out that this was a copy of my own
> packet that looped back in a way that isn't obvious locally,
> then assuming the address is in use by someone else is not a
> good idea, because that limits layer 2 topologies for no good
> reason. A simple check to see whether the source MAC address
> is the local MAC address can solve this.

OK but that is just doing proper well behaved programming this is possibly =
good input to the 6MAN WG as a note.
>
> >> DNS
>
> >> 16. How do we expect customer devices to enter into the DNS?
>
> > As they do today.
>
> Today ISPs often just give a name to every address. If you
> get that address, you get the name that goes with it.
> However, in IPv6 you can't populate a /32 with 2^96 DNS names
> so this will have to happen in some other way.

Hmmm can you say more I don't see this limitation in DNS fields defined?  T=
hanks.

>
> >> 19. How do users authorize third-party devices (ranging from gas
> >> meters to set top boxes) use of their broadband connection?
>
> > Sorry not the IETF's  business.
>
> True. But the answer is important for us: if it's "put them
> in a separate subnet" this means the CPE model must support
> multiple subnets.

Here I must disagree.  There is a difference between IP config for example =
multiple subnets and then securing devices.  I don't believe many now agree=
 securing devices based on IP subnet is optimal or secure other than using =
the IP config to locate the devices.  One view against doing this is if the=
 one subnet is compromised then all those 3rd party devices are compromised=
.  Also this breaks entirely the view of distributed networking across IP s=
ubnets for the advantages a subnet provides and that would be unavailable t=
o those devices.

Thanks
/jim




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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Subject: Re: CPEs
Date: Wed, 9 Jan 2008 10:25:50 -0800
To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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On Jan 9, 2008, at 09:08, Bound, Jim wrote:
> [ Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: ]
>> [ Jim Bound wrote: ]
>>> [ Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote: ]
>>>>
>>>> 7. Is the model where there is a CPE with modem functionality =20
>>>> but not router functionality a reasonable one?
>>>
>>> I don't think so and this should be transparent to v6ops mission =20
>>> for this thread is my input.
>>
>> Reason for the question: if ISPs insist on CPEs with modem and =20
>> router functionality integrated, we can skip some issues (RAs from =20=

>> ISP to customer) but that means the ISP - CPE interface becomes =20
>> more important because if it doesn't work right the user is left =20
>> without recourse.
>
> True but I still think that is transparent to the modem and this is =20=

> really how are RAs/RSs going to work for a home environment.
>
> Important question is this work or model to be only for the home =20
> CPE end and not other target markets for IPv6 deployment?

I'm okay with a model that says CPE for the residential and small-=20
office markets have different requirements than CPE for middle and =20
large enterprise sites.

>>>> 13. How many devices are allowed to connect to a CPE(m)?
>>
>>> Absolutely none of the IETF's business.  Sorry this is a product =20
>>> feature set for the vendors.
>>
>> It's more an ISP issue. If ISPs want this to be exactly one, =20
>> vendors can build in logic that avoids problems when a user tries =20
>> to connect multiple devices anyway.
>
> Yep but still not the IETFs business.

I suspect IETF ought to give some consideration to what might happen =20
if ISP's deploy such logic and 3rd parties begin offering solutions =20
to "connect" multiple devices that present to the ISP as if they are =20
the single device for which they are billed for service.

>>>> 19. How do users authorize third-party devices (ranging from gas =20=

>>>> meters to set top boxes) use of their broadband connection?
>>>
>>> Sorry not the IETF's  business.
>>
>> True. But the answer is important for us: if it's "put them in a =20
>> separate subnet" this means the CPE model must support multiple =20
>> subnets.
>
> Here I must disagree.  There is a difference between IP config for =20
> example multiple subnets and then securing devices.  I don't =20
> believe many now agree securing devices based on IP subnet is =20
> optimal or secure other than using the IP config to locate the =20
> devices.  One view against doing this is if the one subnet is =20
> compromised then all those 3rd party devices are compromised.  Also =20=

> this breaks entirely the view of distributed networking across IP =20
> subnets for the advantages a subnet provides and that would be =20
> unavailable to those devices.

This question has a very simple answer for the "simple CPE security =20
model" side of the discussion.

Users authorize 3rd-party devices to consume their broadband resource =20=

by allowing them to receive router advertisements=97 typically by =20
plugging in the ethernet cable or joining the wireless access network.

I think it would be wise to recommend that those 3rd-party devices, =20
which can operate without access to the global Internet, should be =20
configured by default not to assign global scope interface addresses =20
upon receiving router advertisements (i.e. assign only link-local =20
addresses to all interfaces and process router advertisements only to =20=

learn about on-link prefixes).

I can think of some additional ways to support network segregation =20
inside residential and small-office sites, but I think we should =20
settle the easier disputes before moving on to the harder ones.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering





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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 10 03:42:54 2008
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From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Subject: More CPE
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 01:15:45 +0100
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Based on the discussion of the past days, I think this is a mixture of  
what we seem to agree on and some random things that I think are  
necessary and/or a good idea. Feel free to shoot down any part as  
needed.

All of this only applies to presumably unmanaged consumer and SOHO  
installations.

1. The expectation is that broadband modems will have IPv6 routing  
functionality.

2. Despite 1., we expect users to be able to add zero or more IPv6  
routers of their own.

3. Authentication of users towards ISPs is undefined at this time.

4. These routers (both with and without modem functionality) configure  
addresses and routing functionality as follows:

4a. The router listens for RAs on its WAN port. If there are RAs with  
global prefixes, the router autoconfigures global addresses as usual  
for hosts. If there are no global prefixes in the RAs then the router  
doesn't autoconfigure global addresses and borrows a global address  
from another interface when necessary for generating ICMP messages  
etc. If the advertised prefixes are (unique) site local the behavior  
is undefined; this is not recommended. If there are no RAs there is no  
native IPv6 connectivity and/or manual configuration is required.

4b. DAD is performed as specified in the relevant RFCs with the  
understanding that if the layer 2 network echoes back the router's own  
neighbor solicitation that is used for DAD the router recognizes its  
own source MAC address and doesn't take reception of this packet to  
mean the address is a duplicate. (To aid in ISP configurations where  
layer 2 multicasts must go through a central point so looping back of  
multicast packets can't be avoided.)

4c. Routers obtain an IPv6 prefix through DHCPv6 prefix delegation.  
They honor the unicast server option if they have a RA configured  
global address so that ISPs may base DHCPv6 server decisions on the  
autoconfigured address if this is desired as an alternative for  
implementing DHCPv6 snooping and option injection.

4d. If prefix delegation is unsuccessful but there are RAs with global  
prefixes on the WAN side, the router ceases native IPv6 routing and  
offers the user the option to operate in bridge mode and/or falls back  
to tunneling. Routers that can reasonably assume to operate behind  
another router (i.e., routers that don't have modem functionality) and  
routers that can firewall while operating in bridge mode MAY enter  
bridge mode automatically.

4e. Because of 2., it is recommended that routers implement DHCPv6  
prefix delegation server functionality in order to sub-delegate part  
of the prefix obtained from the ISP to routers connected on the LAN  
side. Routing of delegated prefixes must track the delegation;  
lifetimes must track those of the prefix the router itself obtained as  
a DHCPv6 PD client. It is recommended that routers sub-delegate the  
next power of two block equal to or larger than half the address space  
obtained but not in use in order to allow for the maximum possible  
daisy chaining of routers. Prefix delegation through a DHCPv6 relay is  
not recommended because the relay can't be presumed capable of  
installing the required routes.

5. Routers advertise the prefixes they have learned through DHCPv6  
prefix delegation using RAs on the LAN side using lifetimes copied  
from the DHCPv6 lifetimes. If the ISP-supplied prefix is shorter than / 
64 then, in the absense of user configuration, the router uses the  
lowest /64 from that prefix on the LAN side. (Discussion: this makes  
everything easier to guess for attackers. But using random bits here  
will lead to unnecessary address changes when the router reboots and  
makes troubleshooting more difficult.) The router tracks at least the  
two most recently delegated prefixes from the ISP, i.e., during  
renumbering events both the old and new prefix are usable for as long  
as the lifetime of the old prefix persists.

6. Routers validate the source addresses of outgoing packets.

6a. Optionally, routers track the presence of other routers on their  
LAN side and forward packets with source addresses that match the  
prefixes advertised by those routers to them. (Helps to get around  
ingress filtering by ISPs when there are multiple routers connecting  
to multiple ISPs.)

6b. Optionally, routers may obtain multiple global addresses and  
default gateways through RAs and multiple prefixes using DHCPv6 PD and  
then use both sets of information side by side in such a way that  
packets go to the next hop router / ISP matching the source address in  
packets received on the LAN side. (Very helpful for shim6-style  
multihoming.)

6c. Routers generate "invalid source address" ICMP errors for packets  
that can't be forwarded because their source address falls outside of  
the delegated prefix. (The full prefix if shorter than /64.) (More  
robust in the presence of ingress filtering.)

7. Routers support at least a small number of static routes,  
preferably such that static routes to other routers within the site  
can be set up with wildcard bits for the ISP-delegated prefix. (To  
allow having different subnets separated by different routers within a  
site.)

8. If routers have stateless DHCPv6 server capability, they MAY set  
the O bit in their router advertisements and provide DNS, domain etc  
information that they obtained along with the DHCPv6 prefix  
delegation, IPv4 DHCP or from manual configuration to hosts on the LAN  
side through stateless DHCPv6. A router that is prepared to forward  
DNS queries to IPv4 DNS servers, has 1 or more IPv4 resolver addresses  
and IPv4 connectivity SHOULD advertise its own address through  
stateless DHCPv6 if it doesn't know of any IPv6 DNS resolvers.

9. If routers don't implement DHCPv6 server capability, they SHOULD  
implement a DHCPv6 relay function and copy the O bit from RAs received  
on the WAN side in their own RAs on the LAN side.

(Discussion: having ISPs push the M bit / stateful address  
configuration is probably not appropriate. However, if the hosts  
generate stateful DHCP requests anyway, a relay is a relay...)

10. Routers SHOULD insert the IPv6 DNS resolver addresses they have  
knowledge of in an RFC 5006 RA option. A router that is prepared to  
forward DNS queries to IPv4 DNS servers, has 1 or more IPv4 resolver  
addresses and IPv4 connectivity SHOULD advertise its own address in an  
RFC 5006 RA option if it doesn't know of any IPv6 DNS resolvers.

11. Firewalling in unmanaged routers is a complex issue. Both  
firewalling and not firewalling have important downsides. See separate  
documents on firewalling best practices in this area and on how to  
open up ports in firewalls. Irrespective of that, it is highly  
recommended that vendors in this area make it as easy as possible for  
users to enable/disable firewalling, both site-wide and on a per-host  
basis. (Based on MAC address?)

(Discussion: how does a host know if it's firewalled? In IPv4 you can  
see that you have an RFC1918 address. But your IPv6 address is the  
same whether you need to bypass a firewall or not. Apparently, at  
least one vendor has decided to not publish AAAA records because of  
this issue. Do we need to push out information about the firewall  
status to hosts?)

(Discussion: is there any MIPv6 functionality that is so important  
that we should try to get CPE vendors to implement it?)




From toshiter57@research-int.com Thu Jan 10 03:56:45 2008
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 10 04:57:53 2008
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From: "Miguel A. Diaz" <miguelangel.diaz@consulintel.es>
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Subject: RE: More CPE
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:54:22 +0100
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If both RA and DHPCPv6 are setup in the WAN port, the ISP has to
manage two prefix pools: one for the point-to-point link (RA) and the
other one for the delegated prefix (usually /48).

That can be avoided by getting one /64 for the point-to-point link
(RA) from the delegated prefix (/48) as explained at
http://www.consulintel.euro6ix.org/ietf/draft-palet-v6ops-point2point-
01.txt

This approach has benefits from both operational and routing
aggregation perspectives and it may be taken into account by both ISPs
and CPEs manufacturers.


Regarding MIPv6, the most important feature that a firewalled CPE must
implement is not filtering the specific extension headers to let MIPv6
to work:

* Destination option extension header
* Type 2 routing extension header
* MIPv6 extension header messages (BU, BA, BE, etc.)

See
http://www.ist-enable.org/open/draft-thiruvengadam-nsis-mip6-fw-06.txt
for detailed explanation on this.

Otherwise the firewalled CPE should implement some signaling mechanism
to open the required pinholes in the firewall for allowing such
packets to go out/come in, for instance by using the NSIS protocol as
proposed at
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-thiruvengadam-nsis-mip6-fw-0
8.txt


Regards
Miguel

> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org 
> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] En nombre de Iljitsch van Beijnum
> Enviado el: jueves, 10 de enero de 2008 1:16
> Para: IPv6 Operations
> Asunto: More CPE
> 
> Based on the discussion of the past days, I think this is a 
> mixture of what we seem to agree on and some random things 
> that I think are necessary and/or a good idea. Feel free to 
> shoot down any part as needed.
> 
> All of this only applies to presumably unmanaged consumer and 
> SOHO installations.
> 
> 1. The expectation is that broadband modems will have IPv6 
> routing functionality.
> 
> 2. Despite 1., we expect users to be able to add zero or more 
> IPv6 routers of their own.
> 
> 3. Authentication of users towards ISPs is undefined at this time.
> 
> 4. These routers (both with and without modem functionality) 
> configure addresses and routing functionality as follows:
> 
> 4a. The router listens for RAs on its WAN port. If there are 
> RAs with global prefixes, the router autoconfigures global 
> addresses as usual for hosts. If there are no global prefixes 
> in the RAs then the router doesn't autoconfigure global 
> addresses and borrows a global address from another interface 
> when necessary for generating ICMP messages etc. If the 
> advertised prefixes are (unique) site local the behavior is 
> undefined; this is not recommended. If there are no RAs there 
> is no native IPv6 connectivity and/or manual configuration is 
> required.
> 
> 4b. DAD is performed as specified in the relevant RFCs with 
> the understanding that if the layer 2 network echoes back the 
> router's own neighbor solicitation that is used for DAD the 
> router recognizes its own source MAC address and doesn't take 
> reception of this packet to mean the address is a duplicate. 
> (To aid in ISP configurations where layer 2 multicasts must 
> go through a central point so looping back of multicast 
> packets can't be avoided.)
> 
> 4c. Routers obtain an IPv6 prefix through DHCPv6 prefix delegation.

> They honor the unicast server option if they have a RA 
> configured global address so that ISPs may base DHCPv6 server 
> decisions on the autoconfigured address if this is desired as 
> an alternative for implementing DHCPv6 snooping and option
injection.
> 
> 4d. If prefix delegation is unsuccessful but there are RAs 
> with global prefixes on the WAN side, the router ceases 
> native IPv6 routing and offers the user the option to operate 
> in bridge mode and/or falls back to tunneling. Routers that 
> can reasonably assume to operate behind another router (i.e., 
> routers that don't have modem functionality) and routers that 
> can firewall while operating in bridge mode MAY enter bridge 
> mode automatically.
> 
> 4e. Because of 2., it is recommended that routers implement 
> DHCPv6 prefix delegation server functionality in order to 
> sub-delegate part of the prefix obtained from the ISP to 
> routers connected on the LAN side. Routing of delegated 
> prefixes must track the delegation; lifetimes must track 
> those of the prefix the router itself obtained as a DHCPv6 PD 
> client. It is recommended that routers sub-delegate the next 
> power of two block equal to or larger than half the address 
> space obtained but not in use in order to allow for the 
> maximum possible daisy chaining of routers. Prefix delegation 
> through a DHCPv6 relay is not recommended because the relay 
> can't be presumed capable of installing the required routes.
> 
> 5. Routers advertise the prefixes they have learned through 
> DHCPv6 prefix delegation using RAs on the LAN side using 
> lifetimes copied from the DHCPv6 lifetimes. If the 
> ISP-supplied prefix is shorter than /
> 64 then, in the absense of user configuration, the router 
> uses the lowest /64 from that prefix on the LAN side. 
> (Discussion: this makes everything easier to guess for 
> attackers. But using random bits here will lead to 
> unnecessary address changes when the router reboots and makes 
> troubleshooting more difficult.) The router tracks at least 
> the two most recently delegated prefixes from the ISP, i.e., 
> during renumbering events both the old and new prefix are 
> usable for as long as the lifetime of the old prefix persists.
> 
> 6. Routers validate the source addresses of outgoing packets.
> 
> 6a. Optionally, routers track the presence of other routers 
> on their LAN side and forward packets with source addresses 
> that match the prefixes advertised by those routers to them. 
> (Helps to get around ingress filtering by ISPs when there are 
> multiple routers connecting to multiple ISPs.)
> 
> 6b. Optionally, routers may obtain multiple global addresses 
> and default gateways through RAs and multiple prefixes using 
> DHCPv6 PD and then use both sets of information side by side 
> in such a way that packets go to the next hop router / ISP 
> matching the source address in packets received on the LAN 
> side. (Very helpful for shim6-style
> multihoming.)
> 
> 6c. Routers generate "invalid source address" ICMP errors for 
> packets that can't be forwarded because their source address 
> falls outside of the delegated prefix. (The full prefix if 
> shorter than /64.) (More robust in the presence of ingress
filtering.)
> 
> 7. Routers support at least a small number of static routes, 
> preferably such that static routes to other routers within 
> the site can be set up with wildcard bits for the 
> ISP-delegated prefix. (To allow having different subnets 
> separated by different routers within a
> site.)
> 
> 8. If routers have stateless DHCPv6 server capability, they 
> MAY set the O bit in their router advertisements and provide 
> DNS, domain etc information that they obtained along with the 
> DHCPv6 prefix delegation, IPv4 DHCP or from manual 
> configuration to hosts on the LAN side through stateless 
> DHCPv6. A router that is prepared to forward DNS queries to 
> IPv4 DNS servers, has 1 or more IPv4 resolver addresses and 
> IPv4 connectivity SHOULD advertise its own address through 
> stateless DHCPv6 if it doesn't know of any IPv6 DNS resolvers.
> 
> 9. If routers don't implement DHCPv6 server capability, they 
> SHOULD implement a DHCPv6 relay function and copy the O bit 
> from RAs received on the WAN side in their own RAs on the LAN side.
> 
> (Discussion: having ISPs push the M bit / stateful address 
> configuration is probably not appropriate. However, if the 
> hosts generate stateful DHCP requests anyway, a relay is a relay...)
> 
> 10. Routers SHOULD insert the IPv6 DNS resolver addresses 
> they have knowledge of in an RFC 5006 RA option. A router 
> that is prepared to forward DNS queries to IPv4 DNS servers, 
> has 1 or more IPv4 resolver addresses and IPv4 connectivity 
> SHOULD advertise its own address in an RFC 5006 RA option if 
> it doesn't know of any IPv6 DNS resolvers.
> 
> 11. Firewalling in unmanaged routers is a complex issue. Both 
> firewalling and not firewalling have important downsides. See 
> separate documents on firewalling best practices in this area 
> and on how to open up ports in firewalls. Irrespective of 
> that, it is highly recommended that vendors in this area make 
> it as easy as possible for users to enable/disable 
> firewalling, both site-wide and on a per-host basis. (Based 
> on MAC address?)
> 
> (Discussion: how does a host know if it's firewalled? In IPv4 
> you can see that you have an RFC1918 address. But your IPv6 
> address is the same whether you need to bypass a firewall or 
> not. Apparently, at least one vendor has decided to not 
> publish AAAA records because of this issue. Do we need to 
> push out information about the firewall status to hosts?)
> 
> (Discussion: is there any MIPv6 functionality that is so 
> important that we should try to get CPE vendors to implement it?)
> 
> 




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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 10 05:54:34 2008
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Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 21:22:01 +1030
From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: miguelangel.diaz@consulintel.es
Cc: <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: More CPE
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On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:54:22 +0100
"Miguel A. Diaz" <miguelangel.diaz@consulintel.es> wrote:

> If both RA and DHPCPv6 are setup in the WAN port, the ISP has to
> manage two prefix pools: one for the point-to-point link (RA) and the
> other one for the delegated prefix (usually /48).
> 
> That can be avoided by getting one /64 for the point-to-point link
> (RA) from the delegated prefix (/48) as explained at
> http://www.consulintel.euro6ix.org/ietf/draft-palet-v6ops-point2point-
> 01.txt
> 
> This approach has benefits from both operational and routing
> aggregation perspectives and it may be taken into account by both ISPs
> and CPEs manufacturers.

I'm personally not against this addressing method, however I'm not all
that sure that might be a good idea for the customers. "Stealing" a /64
out of the customer's /48 creates opportunities for the customer to
accidently use it on their side of the CPE, breaking their external
connectivity. This probably would only happen occasionally (although as
an ISP you'd probably want to avoid the first 5, 20 or 100 /64s),
however when you have 10 000s or 100 000s customers, those occasions
can start to occur quite often, and those are calls your helpdesk has
to receive and deal with.

IOW, I think it's easier for all customers to remember, "this /48 is
mine", verses "this /48 is mine, except that one which my ISP assigns,
that I'll always have to remember to avoid."

Regards,
Mark.




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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 10 12:57:31 2008
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From: EricLKlein@softhome.net
To: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: More CPE
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Iljitsch van Beijnum writes: 

> Based on the discussion of the past days, I think this is a mixture of  
> what we seem to agree on and some random things that I think are  
> necessary and/or a good idea. Feel free to shoot down any part as  needed. 
> 
> All of this only applies to presumably unmanaged consumer and SOHO  
> installations. 
> 
> 1. The expectation is that broadband modems will have IPv6 routing  
> functionality. 
> 
> 2. Despite 1., we expect users to be able to add zero or more IPv6  
> routers of their own. 
> 
> 3. Authentication of users towards ISPs is undefined at this time.

I would presume that the same authentication that is used now would still be 
appropriate. Currently my CPE (Router, DSL Modem, etc.) needs to 
authenticate using a user name and password provided by the ISP.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 10 13:32:52 2008
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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Subject: Re: More CPE
Date: Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:31:06 -0800
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On Jan 9, 2008, at 16:15, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
>
> (Discussion: how does a host know if it's firewalled?

That's easy.  It receives an ALD Firewall Advertisement message.  A  
more difficult question is How Does A Node Discover That It *ISN'T*  
Firewalled?

> In IPv4 you can see that you have an RFC1918 address. But your IPv6  
> address is the same whether you need to bypass a firewall or not.  
> Apparently, at least one vendor has decided to not publish AAAA  
> records because of this issue. Do we need to push out information  
> about the firewall status to hosts?)


Heh.  I've seen at least one large US financial institution *remove*  
its AAAA records for the more serious reason that some (more than  
one) major North American ISP's are deliberately routing 6to4 traffic  
into black holes and refusing to deploy relays of their own between  
their production IPv6 and IPv4 networks.

We have more than a few bugs to work out of the system at this point.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering






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Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:34:24 +1300
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Subject: Re: More CPE
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On 2008-01-10 23:52, Mark Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:54:22 +0100
> "Miguel A. Diaz" <miguelangel.diaz@consulintel.es> wrote:
> 
>> If both RA and DHPCPv6 are setup in the WAN port, the ISP has to
>> manage two prefix pools: one for the point-to-point link (RA) and the
>> other one for the delegated prefix (usually /48).
>>
>> That can be avoided by getting one /64 for the point-to-point link
>> (RA) from the delegated prefix (/48) as explained at
>> http://www.consulintel.euro6ix.org/ietf/draft-palet-v6ops-point2point-
>> 01.txt
>>
>> This approach has benefits from both operational and routing
>> aggregation perspectives and it may be taken into account by both ISPs
>> and CPEs manufacturers.
> 
> I'm personally not against this addressing method, however I'm not all
> that sure that might be a good idea for the customers. "Stealing" a /64
> out of the customer's /48 creates opportunities for the customer to
> accidently use it on their side of the CPE, breaking their external
> connectivity. This probably would only happen occasionally (although as
> an ISP you'd probably want to avoid the first 5, 20 or 100 /64s),
> however when you have 10 000s or 100 000s customers, those occasions
> can start to occur quite often, and those are calls your helpdesk has
> to receive and deal with.
> 
> IOW, I think it's easier for all customers to remember, "this /48 is
> mine", verses "this /48 is mine, except that one which my ISP assigns,
> that I'll always have to remember to avoid."

Surely it should be the CPE itself that does the remembering? I don't
envisage that SOHO users will be assigning IPv6 prefixes manually.
And even if they did, a simple instruction like "start numbering your
subnets at 1, because subnet 0 is used internally" should work.

    Brian




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 10 16:56:25 2008
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Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 08:21:43 +1030
From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: miguelangel.diaz@consulintel.es, v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: More CPE
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On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:34:24 +1300
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2008-01-10 23:52, Mark Smith wrote:
> > On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:54:22 +0100
> > "Miguel A. Diaz" <miguelangel.diaz@consulintel.es> wrote:
> > 
> >> If both RA and DHPCPv6 are setup in the WAN port, the ISP has to
> >> manage two prefix pools: one for the point-to-point link (RA) and the
> >> other one for the delegated prefix (usually /48).
> >>
> >> That can be avoided by getting one /64 for the point-to-point link
> >> (RA) from the delegated prefix (/48) as explained at
> >> http://www.consulintel.euro6ix.org/ietf/draft-palet-v6ops-point2point-
> >> 01.txt
> >>
> >> This approach has benefits from both operational and routing
> >> aggregation perspectives and it may be taken into account by both ISPs
> >> and CPEs manufacturers.
> > 
> > I'm personally not against this addressing method, however I'm not all
> > that sure that might be a good idea for the customers. "Stealing" a /64
> > out of the customer's /48 creates opportunities for the customer to
> > accidently use it on their side of the CPE, breaking their external
> > connectivity. This probably would only happen occasionally (although as
> > an ISP you'd probably want to avoid the first 5, 20 or 100 /64s),
> > however when you have 10 000s or 100 000s customers, those occasions
> > can start to occur quite often, and those are calls your helpdesk has
> > to receive and deal with.
> > 
> > IOW, I think it's easier for all customers to remember, "this /48 is
> > mine", verses "this /48 is mine, except that one which my ISP assigns,
> > that I'll always have to remember to avoid."
> 
> Surely it should be the CPE itself that does the remembering? I don't
> envisage that SOHO users will be assigning IPv6 prefixes manually.
> And even if they did, a simple instruction like "start numbering your
> subnets at 1, because subnet 0 is used internally" should work.
> 

Possibly. OTOH, it could be the CPE vendors that pre-configure subnet
numbers to the one or more downstream interfaces for use with DHCP-PD,
and they might be in the habit of using the first 3 subnets, possibly
including zero.

If we were to recommend a /64 to "steal", I'd be suggesting 0xffff or
maybe 0x00ff (for /56 case) (although people like me tend to use those
specifically *because* they don't conflict with what other people
commonly choose :-) ).

Regards,
Mark.




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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 10 17:56:13 2008
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On Jan 10, 2008, at 01:54, Miguel A. Diaz wrote:
>
> If both RA and DHPCPv6 are setup in the WAN port, the ISP has to =20
> manage two prefix pools: one for the point-to-point link (RA) and =20
> the other one for the delegated prefix (usually /48).

And, this is difficult why?  Everyone at the ISP has only one finger=97 =20=

so, therefore, they're unable to count up to two?

> That can be avoided by...


I think you skipped a step.  I don't understand why you want to spend =20=

any effort avoiding this "problem" when the "solution" seems to pose =20
a whole passle of other, new and interesting problems, i.e. how to =20
delegate a fractional prefix to a customer, i.e. "all these addresses =20=

belong to you, except this /64... ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE!"


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering






From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 10 18:27:53 2008
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On 1/9/08 7:15 PM, "Iljitsch van Beijnum" <iljitsch@muada.com> wrote:

> Based on the discussion of the past days, I think this is a mixture of
> what we seem to agree on and some random things that I think are
> necessary and/or a good idea. Feel free to shoot down any part as
> needed.
> 
> All of this only applies to presumably unmanaged consumer and SOHO
> installations.
> 
> 1. The expectation is that broadband modems will have IPv6 routing
> functionality.

This assumption is wrong. DOCSIS (2.0 & 3.0) modems are defined as simple
bridges for both IPv4 and IPv6. There is an additional spec, the "eRouter"
that define a minimum optional implementation of IPv6 routing, so you'll see
two types of products, bridges & routers.

   - Alain.





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Message-ID: <4786C359.6070002@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:16:09 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: Alain Durand <alain_durand@cable.comcast.com>
CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>, 
 IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: More CPE
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On 2008-01-11 12:25, Alain Durand wrote:
> 
> 
> On 1/9/08 7:15 PM, "Iljitsch van Beijnum" <iljitsch@muada.com> wrote:
> 
>> Based on the discussion of the past days, I think this is a mixture of
>> what we seem to agree on and some random things that I think are
>> necessary and/or a good idea. Feel free to shoot down any part as
>> needed.
>>
>> All of this only applies to presumably unmanaged consumer and SOHO
>> installations.
>>
>> 1. The expectation is that broadband modems will have IPv6 routing
>> functionality.
> 
> This assumption is wrong. DOCSIS (2.0 & 3.0) modems are defined as simple
> bridges for both IPv4 and IPv6. There is an additional spec, the "eRouter"
> that define a minimum optional implementation of IPv6 routing, so you'll see
> two types of products, bridges & routers.

So a subscriber who gets stuck behind the bridge version but wants to run
an IPv6 subnet will have to buy a separate router and get a prefix from
somewhere? That's broken.

   Brian




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Subject: RE: More CPE
Date: Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:23:07 +0100
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> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: Mark Smith 
> [mailto:ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org] 
> Enviado el: jueves, 10 de enero de 2008 11:52
> Para: miguelangel.diaz@consulintel.es
> CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Asunto: Re: More CPE
> 
> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:54:22 +0100
> "Miguel A. Diaz" <miguelangel.diaz@consulintel.es> wrote:
> 
> > If both RA and DHPCPv6 are setup in the WAN port, the ISP has to 
> > manage two prefix pools: one for the point-to-point link 
> (RA) and the 
> > other one for the delegated prefix (usually /48).
> > 
> > That can be avoided by getting one /64 for the point-to-point link
> > (RA) from the delegated prefix (/48) as explained at
> > 
>
http://www.consulintel.euro6ix.org/ietf/draft-palet-v6ops-point2point-
> > 01.txt
> > 
> > This approach has benefits from both operational and routing 
> > aggregation perspectives and it may be taken into account 
> by both ISPs 
> > and CPEs manufacturers.
> 
> I'm personally not against this addressing method, however 
> I'm not all that sure that might be a good idea for the 
> customers. "Stealing" a /64 out of the customer's /48 creates 
> opportunities for the customer to accidently use it on their 
> side of the CPE, breaking their external connectivity. This 
> probably would only happen occasionally (although as an ISP 
> you'd probably want to avoid the first 5, 20 or 100 /64s), 
> however when you have 10 000s or 100 000s customers, those 
> occasions can start to occur quite often, and those are calls 
> your helpdesk has to receive and deal with.
> 

Not sure if that will happen very likely. Most of the residential
users don't know anything about networking, so they just follow the
instructions from their ISPs and/or CPEs. Probably they will have one
only router (the CPE) which in the event this addressing method is a
convention it will prevent the assignment of the WAN /64 to other LAN
port.

In case of advanced users and or network administrators in
enterprises, there's nothing new with this addressing method. Those
users are supposed to be able to manage ip address allocation in the
same way that currently happens with IPv4: if they receive an IPv4 /29
from their ISP, they must be able to know what IP is broadcast, what
the gateway, etc, and not re-use it in the internal network.


> IOW, I think it's easier for all customers to remember, "this 
> /48 is mine", verses "this /48 is mine, except that one which 
> my ISP assigns, that I'll always have to remember to avoid."
> 
> Regards,
> Mark.
> 




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> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org 
> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] En nombre de james woodyatt
> Enviado el: jueves, 10 de enero de 2008 23:53
> Para: IPv6 Operations
> Asunto: Re: More CPE
> 
> On Jan 10, 2008, at 01:54, Miguel A. Diaz wrote:
> >
> > If both RA and DHPCPv6 are setup in the WAN port, the ISP has to 
> > manage two prefix pools: one for the point-to-point link 
> (RA) and the 
> > other one for the delegated prefix (usually /48).
> 
> And, this is difficult why?  Everyone at the ISP has only one 

Not really difficult but inefficient.


> finger- so, therefore, they're unable to count up to two?
> 
> > That can be avoided by...
> 
> 
> I think you skipped a step.  I don't understand why you want 
> to spend any effort avoiding this "problem" when the 
> "solution" seems to pose a whole passle of other, new and 
> interesting problems, i.e. how to delegate a fractional 
> prefix to a customer, i.e. "all these addresses belong to 
> you, except this /64... ATTEMPT NO LANDINGS THERE!"
> 
> 

Having only one pool for address assignement has at least the
following advantages (surely others ones as well):

* better HD-Ratio. Probably you'll think is that really important in
IPv6? But any LIR has to take care of that in order to receive the IP
(v4 or v6) address space from its RIR.

* one only pool in the ISP AAA infrastructure (i.e. RADIUS), so you
reduce the configuration and maintenance resources

* you are able to reduce one route in routing table of the access
router (ISP side). See
http://www.consulintel.euro6ix.org/ietf/draft-palet-v6ops-point2point-
01.txt section 4 for more details.


Regards
Miguel




**********************************************
The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org

Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 !
http://www.ipv6day.org

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 11 05:24:47 2008
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Subject: Re: More CPE
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References: <F4BA3FCC-4B5A-46A7-9F4C-90F1212613C9@muada.com> <005c01c8536e$c72c0d00$1e50a8c0@consulintel.es> <7B8AD56F-71FF-486A-9333-7E9DA001FD31@apple.com> <002c01c8542f$40271b80$1500a80a@consulintel.es>
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hi,

On Fri, Jan 11, 2008 at 09:52:08AM +0100, Miguel A. Diaz wrote:
> Having only one pool for address assignement has at least the
> following advantages (surely others ones as well):
> 
> * better HD-Ratio. Probably you'll think is that really important in
> IPv6? But any LIR has to take care of that in order to receive the IP
> (v4 or v6) address space from its RIR.

As the ISP is explicitely allowed (at least in RIPE land) to use one /48 
per POP, this argument is pretty much moot.

"Ease of administration" and "less possible irritations on the customer
side" should be the focal points for IPv6 guidelines.

Gert Doering
        -- NetMaster
-- 
Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations:  110584

SpaceNet AG                        Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14          Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen                   HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444            USt-IdNr.: DE813185279




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Jan 11 07:32:56 2008
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On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:16:09 +1300, Brian E Carpenter

<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> So a subscriber who gets stuck behind the bridge version but wants to run

> an IPv6 subnet will have to buy a separate router and get a prefix from

> somewhere? That's broken.



I don't see how this is broken.

When I bought my (IPv4-only) cable modem, I was given the choice between a

model with a single Ethernet port (that is the bridge version), and the

more expensive model with multiple ports (plus Wi-Fi, IIRC), which I assume

is actually a modem integrated with an IPv4 NAT-router.



To me, this is a feature (mind you I took the cheapest model!) not a bug.



-- 

RĂ©mi





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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Jan 12 00:30:27 2008
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Date: Sat, 12 Jan 2008 15:52:30 +1030
From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: miguelangel.diaz@consulintel.es
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Subject: Re: More CPE
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Hi Miguel,

On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 09:23:07 +0100
"Miguel A. Diaz" <miguelangel.diaz@consulintel.es> wrote:

> > -----Mensaje original-----
> > De: Mark Smith 
> > [mailto:ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org] 
> > Enviado el: jueves, 10 de enero de 2008 11:52
> > Para: miguelangel.diaz@consulintel.es
> > CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > Asunto: Re: More CPE
> > 
> > On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 10:54:22 +0100
> > "Miguel A. Diaz" <miguelangel.diaz@consulintel.es> wrote:
> > 
> > > If both RA and DHPCPv6 are setup in the WAN port, the ISP has to 
> > > manage two prefix pools: one for the point-to-point link 
> > (RA) and the 
> > > other one for the delegated prefix (usually /48).
> > > 
> > > That can be avoided by getting one /64 for the point-to-point link
> > > (RA) from the delegated prefix (/48) as explained at
> > > 
> >
> http://www.consulintel.euro6ix.org/ietf/draft-palet-v6ops-point2point-
> > > 01.txt
> > > 
> > > This approach has benefits from both operational and routing 
> > > aggregation perspectives and it may be taken into account 
> > by both ISPs 
> > > and CPEs manufacturers.
> > 
> > I'm personally not against this addressing method, however 
> > I'm not all that sure that might be a good idea for the 
> > customers. "Stealing" a /64 out of the customer's /48 creates 
> > opportunities for the customer to accidently use it on their 
> > side of the CPE, breaking their external connectivity. This 
> > probably would only happen occasionally (although as an ISP 
> > you'd probably want to avoid the first 5, 20 or 100 /64s), 
> > however when you have 10 000s or 100 000s customers, those 
> > occasions can start to occur quite often, and those are calls 
> > your helpdesk has to receive and deal with.
> > 
> 
> Not sure if that will happen very likely. Most of the residential
> users don't know anything about networking, so they just follow the
> instructions from their ISPs and/or CPEs. Probably they will have one
> only router (the CPE) which in the event this addressing method is a
> convention it will prevent the assignment of the WAN /64 to other LAN
> port.
> 
> In case of advanced users and or network administrators in
> enterprises, there's nothing new with this addressing method. Those
> users are supposed to be able to manage ip address allocation in the
> same way that currently happens with IPv4: if they receive an IPv4 /29
> from their ISP, they must be able to know what IP is broadcast, what
> the gateway, etc, and not re-use it in the internal network.
> 
>

Another thought I've had is SOHO users might be interested in being
dual homed to the same upstream ISP. So at least 2 /64s would have to
be reserved and avoided out of the customers /48. I don't think we
can reserve the first two, as I'm pretty sure people will commonly
number their first subnet number one.

The first and last subnets might be ok, although renumbering the last
subnet of a /56 to the last subnet of a /48 if the customers prefix
length is shortened is something that probably would need to be done for
consistency. People are likely to forget subnet 0x00ff out of their /48
is taken if it isn't renumbered.

Regards,
Mark.





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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 13 17:38:45 2008
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Message-ID: <478A9177.8050500@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:32:23 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: Remi Denis-Courmont <rdenis@simphalempin.com>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: More CPE
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On 2008-01-12 01:28, Remi Denis-Courmont wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:16:09 +1300, Brian E Carpenter
> 
> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> So a subscriber who gets stuck behind the bridge version but wants to run
> 
>> an IPv6 subnet will have to buy a separate router and get a prefix from
> 
>> somewhere? That's broken.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't see how this is broken.
> 
> When I bought my (IPv4-only) cable modem, I was given the choice between a
> 
> model with a single Ethernet port (that is the bridge version), and the
> 
> more expensive model with multiple ports (plus Wi-Fi, IIRC), which I assume
> 
> is actually a modem integrated with an IPv4 NAT-router.
> 
> 
> 
> To me, this is a feature (mind you I took the cheapest model!) not a bug.

My assumption is that this is exceptional, and the typical SOHO
user wants to buy one box providing wireless and wired connectivity
for multiple hosts. But the vendors know better than I do what
they typically sell...

   Brian




From telsandquis@covente.com Sun Jan 13 18:31:14 2008
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From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: Remi Denis-Courmont <rdenis@simphalempin.com>, IPv6 Operations
 <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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On Mon, 14 Jan 2008 11:32:23 +1300
Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 2008-01-12 01:28, Remi Denis-Courmont wrote:
> > On Fri, 11 Jan 2008 14:16:09 +1300, Brian E Carpenter
> > 
> > <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> > 
> >> So a subscriber who gets stuck behind the bridge version but wants to run
> > 
> >> an IPv6 subnet will have to buy a separate router and get a prefix from
> > 
> >> somewhere? That's broken.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > I don't see how this is broken.
> > 
> > When I bought my (IPv4-only) cable modem, I was given the choice between a
> > 
> > model with a single Ethernet port (that is the bridge version), and the
> > 
> > more expensive model with multiple ports (plus Wi-Fi, IIRC), which I assume
> > 
> > is actually a modem integrated with an IPv4 NAT-router.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > To me, this is a feature (mind you I took the cheapest model!) not a bug.
> 
> My assumption is that this is exceptional, and the typical SOHO
> user wants to buy one box providing wireless and wired connectivity
> for multiple hosts. But the vendors know better than I do what
> they typically sell...
> 

All the DSL CPE my employer has sold over at least the last 3 years has
been router CPE. The options are either single ethernet/single USB or
embedded 4 port ethernet switch/single USB/wireless. They can be
configured to operate as a bridge, routed (with NAT) is the default.

Regards,
Mark.




From Dickersonlbua@hayescalls.com Mon Jan 14 05:46:38 2008
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 15 10:55:36 2008
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Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 16:48:45 +0100
From: "Eduard Metz" <etmetz@gmail.com>
To: "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: More CPE
Cc: "Remi Denis-Courmont" <rdenis@simphalempin.com>, 
	"IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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> >
> >
> > I don't see how this is broken.
> >
> > When I bought my (IPv4-only) cable modem, I was given the choice between a
> >
> > model with a single Ethernet port (that is the bridge version), and the
> >
> > more expensive model with multiple ports (plus Wi-Fi, IIRC), which I assume
> >
> > is actually a modem integrated with an IPv4 NAT-router.
> >
> >
> >
> > To me, this is a feature (mind you I took the cheapest model!) not a bug.
>
> My assumption is that this is exceptional, and the typical SOHO
> user wants to buy one box providing wireless and wired connectivity
> for multiple hosts. But the vendors know better than I do what
> they typically sell...
>

The typical functionality of the-box-that-terminates-the-access-medium
may be different for different access technologies. E.g. for
DSL/copper the common choice seems to be L3, whereas for Cable and
Fiber L2 seems more common, for wireless (WiMax etc) ..? . Both models
are valid I guess. Also it doesn't change much wrt the functionality
of the first L3 CPE (if present), the first L3 node may be a host
though, instead of a router.

cheers,
  Eduard

>   Brian
>
>




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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses
	Author(s)       : M. Blanchet
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
	Pages           : 8
	Date            : 2008-01-15

This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6 address
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and users through the Regional Internet Registries.  These
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: <Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>
Cc: <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
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Marc,

Just seeing this now, I think maybe you should add ISATAP
addresses to this list (RFC4214). The address format is
also specified under the IANA ethernet-numbers registry.

The text of your draft could say that the address format
usage is limited to ISATAP links - but, it is important
to note the addresses as special-use.

Thanks - Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:50 AM
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the
IETF.


	Title           : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses
	Author(s)       : M. Blanchet
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
	Pages           : 8
	Date            : 2008-01-15

This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6 address
blocks.  It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to operators
and users through the Regional Internet Registries.  These
descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for documentation
and other purposes.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04
.txt

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 15 13:02:18 2008
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Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt 
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 12:58:38 -0500
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From: "Dunn, Jeffrey H." <jdunn@mitre.org>
To: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>, <Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>
Cc: <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Dunn, Jeffrey H." <jdunn@mitre.org>
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Fred,

Interesting idea. The problem I have is that ISATAP addresses are not
part of any address block. As a result, mentioning them would re-scope
the document, from describing "the global and other specialized IPv6
address blocks."  That is not to say it is a bad idea, since folks tend
to research like documents to populate their ACLs.  Thoughts?

Best Regards,
=20
Jeffrey Dunn
Info Systems Eng., Lead
MITRE Corporation.
-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Templin, Fred L
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:20 PM
To: Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Templin, Fred L
Subject: FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20

Marc,

Just seeing this now, I think maybe you should add ISATAP
addresses to this list (RFC4214). The address format is
also specified under the IANA ethernet-numbers registry.

The text of your draft could say that the address format
usage is limited to ISATAP links - but, it is important
to note the addresses as special-use.

Thanks - Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:50 AM
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the
IETF.


	Title           : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses
	Author(s)       : M. Blanchet
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
	Pages           : 8
	Date            : 2008-01-15

This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6 address
blocks.  It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to operators
and users through the Regional Internet Registries.  These
descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for documentation
and other purposes.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-0
4
.txt

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Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt 
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:01:31 -0800
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: <Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>
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Hmm; I guess maybe this is just about address prefixes,
(whereas ISATAP is about interface identifiers)? If so,
then never mind...

Thanks - Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Templin, Fred L=20
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:20 AM
> To: 'Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca'
> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Templin, Fred L
> Subject: FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
>=20
> Marc,
>=20
> Just seeing this now, I think maybe you should add ISATAP
> addresses to this list (RFC4214). The address format is
> also specified under the IANA ethernet-numbers registry.
>=20
> The text of your draft could say that the address format
> usage is limited to ISATAP links - but, it is important
> to note the addresses as special-use.
>=20
> Thanks - Fred
> fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:50 AM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line=20
> Internet-Drafts directories.
> This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working=20
> Group of the IETF.
>=20
>=20
> 	Title           : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses
> 	Author(s)       : M. Blanchet
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> 	Pages           : 8
> 	Date            : 2008-01-15
>=20
> This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6 address
> blocks.  It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to operators
> and users through the Regional Internet Registries.  These
> descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for documentation
> and other purposes.
>=20
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-f
> or-ipv6-04.txt
>=20
> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in=20
> the body of=20
> the message.
> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> to change your subscription settings.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20
> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20
> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> 	"get draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
>=20
> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>=20
> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
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> Send a message to:
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> /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
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> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
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> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant=20
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> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation on
> 	how to manipulate these messages.
>=20
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
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> Internet-Draft.
>=20




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From: Marc Blanchet <marc.blanchet@viagenie.ca>
To: IETF V6OPS WG <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt 
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:03:06 -0500
References: <E1JEozC-0006sf-4s@stiedprstage1.ietf.org>
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Hi,
  the previous version of this draft was sent to IESG. One DISCUSS was =20=

raised. This new version of the draft is based on the DISCUSS comment =20=

and the subsequent discussion offline with the AD for resolving the =20
discuss.

Some references:
DISCUSS statement: =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/idtracker/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6/c=
omment/76673/?

diff between -03 and -04:
http://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url1=3Dhttp://tools.ietf.org/id/
draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-03.txt&url2=3Dhttp://www
.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-
04.txt

or

http://tinyurl.com/yuwuqc

Marc.
Le 08-01-15 =E0 11:50, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org a =E9crit :

> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =20
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of =20
> the IETF.
>
>
> 	Title           : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses
> 	Author(s)       : M. Blanchet
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> 	Pages           : 8
> 	Date            : 2008-01-15
>
> This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6 address
> blocks.  It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to operators
> and users through the Regional Internet Registries.  These
> descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for documentation
> and other purposes.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.t=
xt
>
> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in the body of
> the message.
> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> to change your subscription settings.
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> 	"get draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
>
> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>
> Send a message to:
> 	mailserv@ietf.org.
> In the body type:
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>
> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
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> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
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> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
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> Content-Type: text/plain
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-----
IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca






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Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt 
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:19:35 -0800
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Dunn, Jeffrey H." <jdunn@mitre.org>, <Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>
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Jeffrey,

I hadn't thought about ACLs, and there is also the question
of IPv6 privacy addresses (RFC3041) that end up looking like
ISATAP addresses. I guess I could see the rescoping if there
were concern for addresses that look like ISATAP showing up
on prefixes assigned to non-ISATAP links. Is there reason
to be concerned about this?

Thanks - Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:59 AM
> To: Templin, Fred L; Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
>=20
> Fred,
>=20
> Interesting idea. The problem I have is that ISATAP addresses are not
> part of any address block. As a result, mentioning them would re-scope
> the document, from describing "the global and other specialized IPv6
> address blocks."  That is not to say it is a bad idea, since folks
tend
> to research like documents to populate their ACLs.  Thoughts?
>=20
> Best Regards,
> =20
> Jeffrey Dunn
> Info Systems Eng., Lead
> MITRE Corporation.
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Templin, Fred L
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:20 PM
> To: Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Templin, Fred L
> Subject: FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
>=20
> Marc,
>=20
> Just seeing this now, I think maybe you should add ISATAP
> addresses to this list (RFC4214). The address format is
> also specified under the IANA ethernet-numbers registry.
>=20
> The text of your draft could say that the address format
> usage is limited to ISATAP links - but, it is important
> to note the addresses as special-use.
>=20
> Thanks - Fred
> fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:50 AM
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> directories.
> This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the
> IETF.
>=20
>=20
> 	Title           : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses
> 	Author(s)       : M. Blanchet
> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> 	Pages           : 8
> 	Date            : 2008-01-15
>=20
> This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6 address
> blocks.  It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to operators
> and users through the Regional Internet Registries.  These
> descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for documentation
> and other purposes.
>=20
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-f
> or-ipv6-0
> 4
> .txt
>=20
> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in=20
> the body of=20
> the message.
> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-announce
> to change your subscription settings.
>=20
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the=20
> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After=20
> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> 	"get draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
>=20
> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>=20
> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>=20
> Send a message to:
> 	mailserv@ietf.org.
> In the body type:
> 	"FILE
> /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
>=20
> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
> readers
> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation
> on
> 	how to manipulate these messages.
>=20
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
>=20




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 15 13:31:01 2008
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From: Marc Blanchet <Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>
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Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt 
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:28:24 -0500
References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDDA5@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7B3D44209E8C944288889D4132FEC4124B0CDE@IMCSRV6.MITRE.ORG> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDDA7@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com>
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I think ISATAP are really out of scope of this document. The purpose =20
of the document was not to list all possible IPv6 addresses constructs =20=

but listing the prefixes that need to be looked at for operators. =20
Again, the genesis of this draft was a concensus among providers and =20
IX operators during an informal IXv6 meeting on the need of a document =20=

to list all prefixes that are candidate to be filtered in some shape =20
or form.

Marc.

Le 08-01-15 =E0 13:19, Templin, Fred L a =E9crit :

> Jeffrey,
>
> I hadn't thought about ACLs, and there is also the question
> of IPv6 privacy addresses (RFC3041) that end up looking like
> ISATAP addresses. I guess I could see the rescoping if there
> were concern for addresses that look like ISATAP showing up
> on prefixes assigned to non-ISATAP links. Is there reason
> to be concerned about this?
>
> Thanks - Fred
> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:59 AM
>> To: Templin, Fred L; Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
>> Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>>
>> Fred,
>>
>> Interesting idea. The problem I have is that ISATAP addresses are not
>> part of any address block. As a result, mentioning them would re-=20
>> scope
>> the document, from describing "the global and other specialized IPv6
>> address blocks."  That is not to say it is a bad idea, since folks
> tend
>> to research like documents to populate their ACLs.  Thoughts?
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Jeffrey Dunn
>> Info Systems Eng., Lead
>> MITRE Corporation.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Templin, Fred L
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:20 PM
>> To: Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Templin, Fred L
>> Subject: FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>>
>> Marc,
>>
>> Just seeing this now, I think maybe you should add ISATAP
>> addresses to this list (RFC4214). The address format is
>> also specified under the IANA ethernet-numbers registry.
>>
>> The text of your draft could say that the address format
>> usage is limited to ISATAP links - but, it is important
>> to note the addresses as special-use.
>>
>> Thanks - Fred
>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:50 AM
>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>> Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> directories.
>> This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the
>> IETF.
>>
>>
>> 	Title           : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses
>> 	Author(s)       : M. Blanchet
>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>> 	Pages           : 8
>> 	Date            : 2008-01-15
>>
>> This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6 address
>> blocks.  It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to operators
>> and users through the Regional Internet Registries.  These
>> descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for documentation
>> and other purposes.
>>
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-f
>> or-ipv6-0
>> 4
>> .txt
>>
>> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
>> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in
>> the body of
>> the message.
>> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-=20
>> announce
>> to change your subscription settings.
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
>> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
>> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
>> 	"get draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
>>
>> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
>> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>
>> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>>
>> Send a message to:
>> 	mailserv@ietf.org.
>> In the body type:
>> 	"FILE
>> /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
>>
>> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
>> 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
>> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
>> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
>> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
>> readers
>> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
>> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
>> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation
>> on
>> 	how to manipulate these messages.
>>
>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>> Internet-Draft.
>>

-----
IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca






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Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt 
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:31:14 -0500
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From: "Dunn, Jeffrey H." <jdunn@mitre.org>
To: "Marc Blanchet" <Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>,
        "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
Cc: <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Dunn, Jeffrey H." <jdunn@mitre.org>
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Marc,

If the purpose is to list all PREFIXES that need to be filtered, I
suggest that you at least mention ISATAP in the Security Considerations
section.

Best Regards,
=20
Jeffrey Dunn
Info Systems Eng., Lead
MITRE Corporation.

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca]=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:28 PM
To: Templin, Fred L
Cc: Dunn, Jeffrey H.; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20

I think ISATAP are really out of scope of this document. The purpose =20
of the document was not to list all possible IPv6 addresses constructs

but listing the prefixes that need to be looked at for operators. =20
Again, the genesis of this draft was a concensus among providers and =20
IX operators during an informal IXv6 meeting on the need of a document

to list all prefixes that are candidate to be filtered in some shape =20
or form.

Marc.

Le 08-01-15 =E0 13:19, Templin, Fred L a =E9crit :

> Jeffrey,
>
> I hadn't thought about ACLs, and there is also the question
> of IPv6 privacy addresses (RFC3041) that end up looking like
> ISATAP addresses. I guess I could see the rescoping if there
> were concern for addresses that look like ISATAP showing up
> on prefixes assigned to non-ISATAP links. Is there reason
> to be concerned about this?
>
> Thanks - Fred
> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:59 AM
>> To: Templin, Fred L; Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
>> Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>>
>> Fred,
>>
>> Interesting idea. The problem I have is that ISATAP addresses are
not
>> part of any address block. As a result, mentioning them would re-=20
>> scope
>> the document, from describing "the global and other specialized IPv6
>> address blocks."  That is not to say it is a bad idea, since folks
> tend
>> to research like documents to populate their ACLs.  Thoughts?
>>
>> Best Regards,
>>
>> Jeffrey Dunn
>> Info Systems Eng., Lead
>> MITRE Corporation.
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of Templin, Fred L
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:20 PM
>> To: Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Templin, Fred L
>> Subject: FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>>
>> Marc,
>>
>> Just seeing this now, I think maybe you should add ISATAP
>> addresses to this list (RFC4214). The address format is
>> also specified under the IANA ethernet-numbers registry.
>>
>> The text of your draft could say that the address format
>> usage is limited to ISATAP links - but, it is important
>> to note the addresses as special-use.
>>
>> Thanks - Fred
>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:50 AM
>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>> Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>> directories.
>> This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of
the
>> IETF.
>>
>>
>> 	Title           : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses
>> 	Author(s)       : M. Blanchet
>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>> 	Pages           : 8
>> 	Date            : 2008-01-15
>>
>> This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6
address
>> blocks.  It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to
operators
>> and users through the Regional Internet Registries.  These
>> descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for
documentation
>> and other purposes.
>>
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-f
>> or-ipv6-0
>> 4
>> .txt
>>
>> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
>> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in
>> the body of
>> the message.
>> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-=20
>> announce
>> to change your subscription settings.
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
>> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
>> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
>> 	"get draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
>>
>> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
>> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>
>> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>>
>> Send a message to:
>> 	mailserv@ietf.org.
>> In the body type:
>> 	"FILE
>> /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
>>
>> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
>> 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
>> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
>> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
>> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
>> readers
>> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
>> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
>> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation
>> on
>> 	how to manipulate these messages.
>>
>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>> Internet-Draft.
>>

-----
IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca






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From: Marc Blanchet <Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>
To: "Dunn, Jeffrey H." <jdunn@mitre.org>
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Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt 
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:34:24 -0500
References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDDA5@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7B3D44209E8C944288889D4132FEC4124B0CDE@IMCSRV6.MITRE.ORG> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDDA7@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <ECC934BD-C7AB-436B-85B4-001DB449B25C@viagenie.ca> <7B3D44209E8C944288889D4132FEC4124B0CE2@IMCSRV6.MITRE.ORG>
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I can't get it. ISATAP is an interface identifier. how one can filter =20=

a prefix on a BGP router, since any prefix may contain ISATAP =20
interface identifier?

Marc.

Le 08-01-15 =E0 13:31, Dunn, Jeffrey H. a =E9crit :

> Marc,
>
> If the purpose is to list all PREFIXES that need to be filtered, I
> suggest that you at least mention ISATAP in the Security =20
> Considerations
> section.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Jeffrey Dunn
> Info Systems Eng., Lead
> MITRE Corporation.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:28 PM
> To: Templin, Fred L
> Cc: Dunn, Jeffrey H.; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>
> I think ISATAP are really out of scope of this document. The purpose
> of the document was not to list all possible IPv6 addresses constructs
>
> but listing the prefixes that need to be looked at for operators.
> Again, the genesis of this draft was a concensus among providers and
> IX operators during an informal IXv6 meeting on the need of a document
>
> to list all prefixes that are candidate to be filtered in some shape
> or form.
>
> Marc.
>
> Le 08-01-15 =E0 13:19, Templin, Fred L a =E9crit :
>
>> Jeffrey,
>>
>> I hadn't thought about ACLs, and there is also the question
>> of IPv6 privacy addresses (RFC3041) that end up looking like
>> ISATAP addresses. I guess I could see the rescoping if there
>> were concern for addresses that look like ISATAP showing up
>> on prefixes assigned to non-ISATAP links. Is there reason
>> to be concerned about this?
>>
>> Thanks - Fred
>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:59 AM
>>> To: Templin, Fred L; Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
>>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
>>> Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>>>
>>> Fred,
>>>
>>> Interesting idea. The problem I have is that ISATAP addresses are
> not
>>> part of any address block. As a result, mentioning them would re-
>>> scope
>>> the document, from describing "the global and other specialized IPv6
>>> address blocks."  That is not to say it is a bad idea, since folks
>> tend
>>> to research like documents to populate their ACLs.  Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Jeffrey Dunn
>>> Info Systems Eng., Lead
>>> MITRE Corporation.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Templin, Fred L
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:20 PM
>>> To: Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
>>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Templin, Fred L
>>> Subject: FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>>>
>>> Marc,
>>>
>>> Just seeing this now, I think maybe you should add ISATAP
>>> addresses to this list (RFC4214). The address format is
>>> also specified under the IANA ethernet-numbers registry.
>>>
>>> The text of your draft could say that the address format
>>> usage is limited to ISATAP links - but, it is important
>>> to note the addresses as special-use.
>>>
>>> Thanks - Fred
>>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:50 AM
>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>>> Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>>>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>> directories.
>>> This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of
> the
>>> IETF.
>>>
>>>
>>> 	Title           : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses
>>> 	Author(s)       : M. Blanchet
>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>>> 	Pages           : 8
>>> 	Date            : 2008-01-15
>>>
>>> This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6
> address
>>> blocks.  It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to
> operators
>>> and users through the Regional Internet Registries.  These
>>> descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for
> documentation
>>> and other purposes.
>>>
>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-f
>>> or-ipv6-0
>>> 4
>>> .txt
>>>
>>> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
>>> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in
>>> the body of
>>> the message.
>>> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-
>>> announce
>>> to change your subscription settings.
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
>>> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
>>> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
>>> 	"get draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
>>>
>>> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
>>> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>>>
>>> Send a message to:
>>> 	mailserv@ietf.org.
>>> In the body type:
>>> 	"FILE
>>> /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
>>>
>>> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
>>> 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
>>> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
>>> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
>>> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
>>> readers
>>> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
>>> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
>>> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation
>>> on
>>> 	how to manipulate these messages.
>>>
>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>> Internet-Draft.
>>>
>
> -----
> IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca
>

-----
IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca






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Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt 
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 13:37:37 -0500
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References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDDA5@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7B3D44209E8C944288889D4132FEC4124B0CDE@IMCSRV6.MITRE.ORG> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDDA7@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <ECC934BD-C7AB-436B-85B4-001DB449B25C@viagenie.ca> <7B3D44209E8C944288889D4132FEC4124B0CE2@IMCSRV6.MITRE.ORG> <B1650ACE-BDDF-429B-A0B8-88ADAC186F64@viagenie.ca>
From: "Dunn, Jeffrey H." <jdunn@mitre.org>
To: "Marc Blanchet" <Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>
Cc: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>,
        "Dunn, Jeffrey H." <jdunn@mitre.org>
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Marc,

You cannot; however, if the purpose of your ID is to help populate ACLs
for prefix filtering to help prevent unauthorized IPv6 access, you
probably should mention in the security considerations that ISATAP can
allow a tunneled IPv6 datagram to spoof any prefix.

Best Regards,
=20
Jeffrey Dunn
Info Systems Eng., Lead
MITRE Corporation.

-----Original Message-----
From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca]=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:34 PM
To: Dunn, Jeffrey H.
Cc: Templin, Fred L; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20

I can't get it. ISATAP is an interface identifier. how one can filter =20
a prefix on a BGP router, since any prefix may contain ISATAP =20
interface identifier?

Marc.

Le 08-01-15 =E0 13:31, Dunn, Jeffrey H. a =E9crit :

> Marc,
>
> If the purpose is to list all PREFIXES that need to be filtered, I
> suggest that you at least mention ISATAP in the Security =20
> Considerations
> section.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Jeffrey Dunn
> Info Systems Eng., Lead
> MITRE Corporation.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:28 PM
> To: Templin, Fred L
> Cc: Dunn, Jeffrey H.; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>
> I think ISATAP are really out of scope of this document. The purpose
> of the document was not to list all possible IPv6 addresses
constructs
>
> but listing the prefixes that need to be looked at for operators.
> Again, the genesis of this draft was a concensus among providers and
> IX operators during an informal IXv6 meeting on the need of a
document
>
> to list all prefixes that are candidate to be filtered in some shape
> or form.
>
> Marc.
>
> Le 08-01-15 =E0 13:19, Templin, Fred L a =E9crit :
>
>> Jeffrey,
>>
>> I hadn't thought about ACLs, and there is also the question
>> of IPv6 privacy addresses (RFC3041) that end up looking like
>> ISATAP addresses. I guess I could see the rescoping if there
>> were concern for addresses that look like ISATAP showing up
>> on prefixes assigned to non-ISATAP links. Is there reason
>> to be concerned about this?
>>
>> Thanks - Fred
>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>>
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:59 AM
>>> To: Templin, Fred L; Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
>>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
>>> Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>>>
>>> Fred,
>>>
>>> Interesting idea. The problem I have is that ISATAP addresses are
> not
>>> part of any address block. As a result, mentioning them would re-
>>> scope
>>> the document, from describing "the global and other specialized
IPv6
>>> address blocks."  That is not to say it is a bad idea, since folks
>> tend
>>> to research like documents to populate their ACLs.  Thoughts?
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>>
>>> Jeffrey Dunn
>>> Info Systems Eng., Lead
>>> MITRE Corporation.
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of Templin, Fred L
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:20 PM
>>> To: Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
>>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Templin, Fred L
>>> Subject: FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>>>
>>> Marc,
>>>
>>> Just seeing this now, I think maybe you should add ISATAP
>>> addresses to this list (RFC4214). The address format is
>>> also specified under the IANA ethernet-numbers registry.
>>>
>>> The text of your draft could say that the address format
>>> usage is limited to ISATAP links - but, it is important
>>> to note the addresses as special-use.
>>>
>>> Thanks - Fred
>>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:50 AM
>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>>> Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>>>
>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
>>> directories.
>>> This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of
> the
>>> IETF.
>>>
>>>
>>> 	Title           : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses
>>> 	Author(s)       : M. Blanchet
>>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
>>> 	Pages           : 8
>>> 	Date            : 2008-01-15
>>>
>>> This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6
> address
>>> blocks.  It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to
> operators
>>> and users through the Regional Internet Registries.  These
>>> descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for
> documentation
>>> and other purposes.
>>>
>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-f
>>> or-ipv6-0
>>> 4
>>> .txt
>>>
>>> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message
to
>>> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in
>>> the body of
>>> the message.
>>> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-
>>> announce
>>> to change your subscription settings.
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP. Login with the
>>> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
>>> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
>>> 	"get draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
>>>
>>> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
>>> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
>>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>>>
>>> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
>>>
>>> Send a message to:
>>> 	mailserv@ietf.org.
>>> In the body type:
>>> 	"FILE
>>> /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
>>>
>>> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
>>> 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
>>> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
>>> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
>>> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
>>> readers
>>> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
>>> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
>>> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation
>>> on
>>> 	how to manipulate these messages.
>>>
>>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
>>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
>>> Internet-Draft.
>>>
>
> -----
> IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca
>

-----
IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca






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Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt 
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 10:57:24 -0800
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Dunn, Jeffrey H." <jdunn@mitre.org>,
        "Marc Blanchet" <Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>
Cc: <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Jeffrey,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:38 AM
> To: Marc Blanchet
> Cc: Templin, Fred L; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
>=20
> Marc,
>=20
> You cannot; however, if the purpose of your ID is to help populate =
ACLs
> for prefix filtering to help prevent unauthorized IPv6 access, you
> probably should mention in the security considerations that ISATAP can
> allow a tunneled IPv6 datagram to spoof any prefix.

Apologies for having started this whole thing, but I'm not
sure I get the concern about about ISATAP allowing prefix
spoofing. ISATAP has filtering rules that keep non-PRL
routers/hosts from using prefixes other than those assigned
to the ISATAP link. So, the ISATAP PRL is the mitigation
against spoofing. Do I still miss the point?

Thanks - Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20
=20
> Best Regards,
> =20
> Jeffrey Dunn
> Info Systems Eng., Lead
> MITRE Corporation.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:34 PM
> To: Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> Cc: Templin, Fred L; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
>=20
> I can't get it. ISATAP is an interface identifier. how one=20
> can filter =20
> a prefix on a BGP router, since any prefix may contain ISATAP =20
> interface identifier?
>=20
> Marc.
>=20
> Le 08-01-15 =E0 13:31, Dunn, Jeffrey H. a =E9crit :
>=20
> > Marc,
> >
> > If the purpose is to list all PREFIXES that need to be filtered, I
> > suggest that you at least mention ISATAP in the Security =20
> > Considerations
> > section.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Jeffrey Dunn
> > Info Systems Eng., Lead
> > MITRE Corporation.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:28 PM
> > To: Templin, Fred L
> > Cc: Dunn, Jeffrey H.; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> >
> > I think ISATAP are really out of scope of this document. The purpose
> > of the document was not to list all possible IPv6 addresses
> constructs
> >
> > but listing the prefixes that need to be looked at for operators.
> > Again, the genesis of this draft was a concensus among providers and
> > IX operators during an informal IXv6 meeting on the need of a
> document
> >
> > to list all prefixes that are candidate to be filtered in some shape
> > or form.
> >
> > Marc.
> >
> > Le 08-01-15 =E0 13:19, Templin, Fred L a =E9crit :
> >
> >> Jeffrey,
> >>
> >> I hadn't thought about ACLs, and there is also the question
> >> of IPv6 privacy addresses (RFC3041) that end up looking like
> >> ISATAP addresses. I guess I could see the rescoping if there
> >> were concern for addresses that look like ISATAP showing up
> >> on prefixes assigned to non-ISATAP links. Is there reason
> >> to be concerned about this?
> >>
> >> Thanks - Fred
> >> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:59 AM
> >>> To: Templin, Fred L; Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
> >>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> >>> Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> >>>
> >>> Fred,
> >>>
> >>> Interesting idea. The problem I have is that ISATAP addresses are
> > not
> >>> part of any address block. As a result, mentioning them would re-
> >>> scope
> >>> the document, from describing "the global and other specialized
> IPv6
> >>> address blocks."  That is not to say it is a bad idea, since folks
> >> tend
> >>> to research like documents to populate their ACLs.  Thoughts?
> >>>
> >>> Best Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Jeffrey Dunn
> >>> Info Systems Eng., Lead
> >>> MITRE Corporation.
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> >>> Behalf Of Templin, Fred L
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:20 PM
> >>> To: Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
> >>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Templin, Fred L
> >>> Subject: FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> >>>
> >>> Marc,
> >>>
> >>> Just seeing this now, I think maybe you should add ISATAP
> >>> addresses to this list (RFC4214). The address format is
> >>> also specified under the IANA ethernet-numbers registry.
> >>>
> >>> The text of your draft could say that the address format
> >>> usage is limited to ISATAP links - but, it is important
> >>> to note the addresses as special-use.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks - Fred
> >>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:50 AM
> >>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> >>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> >>> Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> >>>
> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
> >>> directories.
> >>> This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of
> > the
> >>> IETF.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 	Title           : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses
> >>> 	Author(s)       : M. Blanchet
> >>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> >>> 	Pages           : 8
> >>> 	Date            : 2008-01-15
> >>>
> >>> This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6
> > address
> >>> blocks.  It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to
> > operators
> >>> and users through the Regional Internet Registries.  These
> >>> descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for
> > documentation
> >>> and other purposes.
> >>>
> >>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> >>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-f
> >>> or-ipv6-0
> >>> 4
> >>> .txt
> >>>
> >>> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message
> to
> >>> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in
> >>> the body of
> >>> the message.
> >>> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-
> >>> announce
> >>> to change your subscription settings.
> >>>
> >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP.=20
> Login with the
> >>> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
> >>> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> >>> 	"get draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
> >>>
> >>> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> >>> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> >>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> >>>
> >>> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> >>>
> >>> Send a message to:
> >>> 	mailserv@ietf.org.
> >>> In the body type:
> >>> 	"FILE
> >>> /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
> >>>
> >>> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> >>> 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> >>> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> >>> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> >>> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
> >>> readers
> >>> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> >>> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> >>> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation
> >>> on
> >>> 	how to manipulate these messages.
> >>>
> >>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> >>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> >>> Internet-Draft.
> >>>
> >
> > -----
> > IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca
> >
>=20
> -----
> IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca
>=20
>=20
>=20




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Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt 
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References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDDA5@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7B3D44209E8C944288889D4132FEC4124B0CDE@IMCSRV6.MITRE.ORG> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDDA7@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <ECC934BD-C7AB-436B-85B4-001DB449B25C@viagenie.ca> <7B3D44209E8C944288889D4132FEC4124B0CE2@IMCSRV6.MITRE.ORG> <B1650ACE-BDDF-429B-A0B8-88ADAC186F64@viagenie.ca> <7B3D44209E8C944288889D4132FEC4124B0CE4@IMCSRV6.MITRE.ORG> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDDA8@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com>
From: "Dunn, Jeffrey H." <jdunn@mitre.org>
To: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>,
        "Marc Blanchet" <Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>
Cc: <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Dunn, Jeffrey H." <jdunn@mitre.org>
X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 Jan 2008 19:11:53.0582 (UTC) FILETIME=[7D26F0E0:01C857AA]
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Fred,

Unless the IPv4 and/or the tunneled IPv6 datagram are using AH, you
have no idea where the IPv4 or tunneled IPv6 datagram really came from.
The PRL helps the host identify "set of entries about potential
routers; used to support router and prefix discovery."  The ISATAP
tunnel end point and host interfaces are, essentially, unguarded.  To
quote from RFC 4214:

   There is a possible spoofing attack in which spurious ip-protocol-41
   packets are injected into an ISATAP link from outside.  Since an
   ISATAP link spans an entire IPv4 site, restricting access to the
link
   can be achieved by restricting access to the site; i.e., by having
   site border routers implement IPv4 ingress filtering and ip-
   protocol-41 filtering.

Best Regards,
=20
Jeffrey Dunn
Info Systems Eng., Lead
MITRE Corporation.

-----Original Message-----
From: Templin, Fred L [mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:57 PM
To: Dunn, Jeffrey H.; Marc Blanchet
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20

Jeffrey,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:38 AM
> To: Marc Blanchet
> Cc: Templin, Fred L; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
>=20
> Marc,
>=20
> You cannot; however, if the purpose of your ID is to help populate
ACLs
> for prefix filtering to help prevent unauthorized IPv6 access, you
> probably should mention in the security considerations that ISATAP
can
> allow a tunneled IPv6 datagram to spoof any prefix.

Apologies for having started this whole thing, but I'm not
sure I get the concern about about ISATAP allowing prefix
spoofing. ISATAP has filtering rules that keep non-PRL
routers/hosts from using prefixes other than those assigned
to the ISATAP link. So, the ISATAP PRL is the mitigation
against spoofing. Do I still miss the point?

Thanks - Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20
=20
> Best Regards,
> =20
> Jeffrey Dunn
> Info Systems Eng., Lead
> MITRE Corporation.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:34 PM
> To: Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> Cc: Templin, Fred L; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
>=20
> I can't get it. ISATAP is an interface identifier. how one=20
> can filter =20
> a prefix on a BGP router, since any prefix may contain ISATAP =20
> interface identifier?
>=20
> Marc.
>=20
> Le 08-01-15 =E0 13:31, Dunn, Jeffrey H. a =E9crit :
>=20
> > Marc,
> >
> > If the purpose is to list all PREFIXES that need to be filtered, I
> > suggest that you at least mention ISATAP in the Security =20
> > Considerations
> > section.
> >
> > Best Regards,
> >
> > Jeffrey Dunn
> > Info Systems Eng., Lead
> > MITRE Corporation.
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:28 PM
> > To: Templin, Fred L
> > Cc: Dunn, Jeffrey H.; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> >
> > I think ISATAP are really out of scope of this document. The
purpose
> > of the document was not to list all possible IPv6 addresses
> constructs
> >
> > but listing the prefixes that need to be looked at for operators.
> > Again, the genesis of this draft was a concensus among providers
and
> > IX operators during an informal IXv6 meeting on the need of a
> document
> >
> > to list all prefixes that are candidate to be filtered in some
shape
> > or form.
> >
> > Marc.
> >
> > Le 08-01-15 =E0 13:19, Templin, Fred L a =E9crit :
> >
> >> Jeffrey,
> >>
> >> I hadn't thought about ACLs, and there is also the question
> >> of IPv6 privacy addresses (RFC3041) that end up looking like
> >> ISATAP addresses. I guess I could see the rescoping if there
> >> were concern for addresses that look like ISATAP showing up
> >> on prefixes assigned to non-ISATAP links. Is there reason
> >> to be concerned about this?
> >>
> >> Thanks - Fred
> >> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
> >>
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:59 AM
> >>> To: Templin, Fred L; Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
> >>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> >>> Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> >>>
> >>> Fred,
> >>>
> >>> Interesting idea. The problem I have is that ISATAP addresses are
> > not
> >>> part of any address block. As a result, mentioning them would re-
> >>> scope
> >>> the document, from describing "the global and other specialized
> IPv6
> >>> address blocks."  That is not to say it is a bad idea, since
folks
> >> tend
> >>> to research like documents to populate their ACLs.  Thoughts?
> >>>
> >>> Best Regards,
> >>>
> >>> Jeffrey Dunn
> >>> Info Systems Eng., Lead
> >>> MITRE Corporation.
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20
> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> >>> Behalf Of Templin, Fred L
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:20 PM
> >>> To: Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
> >>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Templin, Fred L
> >>> Subject: FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> >>>
> >>> Marc,
> >>>
> >>> Just seeing this now, I think maybe you should add ISATAP
> >>> addresses to this list (RFC4214). The address format is
> >>> also specified under the IANA ethernet-numbers registry.
> >>>
> >>> The text of your draft could say that the address format
> >>> usage is limited to ISATAP links - but, it is important
> >>> to note the addresses as special-use.
> >>>
> >>> Thanks - Fred
> >>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
> >>>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]
> >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:50 AM
> >>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> >>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> >>> Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> >>>
> >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
Internet-Drafts
> >>> directories.
> >>> This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of
> > the
> >>> IETF.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> 	Title           : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses
> >>> 	Author(s)       : M. Blanchet
> >>> 	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> >>> 	Pages           : 8
> >>> 	Date            : 2008-01-15
> >>>
> >>> This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6
> > address
> >>> blocks.  It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to
> > operators
> >>> and users through the Regional Internet Registries.  These
> >>> descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for
> > documentation
> >>> and other purposes.
> >>>
> >>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> >>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-f
> >>> or-ipv6-0
> >>> 4
> >>> .txt
> >>>
> >>> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message
> to
> >>> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in
> >>> the body of
> >>> the message.
> >>> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-
> >>> announce
> >>> to change your subscription settings.
> >>>
> >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP.=20
> Login with the
> >>> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail address. After
> >>> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> >>> 	"get draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
> >>>
> >>> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> >>> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> >>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> >>>
> >>> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> >>>
> >>> Send a message to:
> >>> 	mailserv@ietf.org.
> >>> In the body type:
> >>> 	"FILE
> >>> /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
> >>>
> >>> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> >>> 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.  To use this
> >>> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime" before the "FILE"
> >>> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will need "munpack" or
> >>> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different MIME-compliant mail
> >>> readers
> >>> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> >>> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which have been split
> >>> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local documentation
> >>> on
> >>> 	how to manipulate these messages.
> >>>
> >>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> >>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> >>> Internet-Draft.
> >>>
> >
> > -----
> > IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca
> >
>=20
> -----
> IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca
>=20
>=20
>=20




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Subject: ISATAP Security (was: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt)
Date: Tue, 15 Jan 2008 11:34:30 -0800
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Dunn, Jeffrey H." <jdunn@mitre.org>,
        "Marc Blanchet" <Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>
Cc: <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Jeffrey,

I think this is getting off-topic for Marc's document, so
changing the subject. But, see below for follow-up:=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 11:12 AM
> To: Templin, Fred L; Marc Blanchet
> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
>=20
> Fred,
>=20
> Unless the IPv4 and/or the tunneled IPv6 datagram are using AH, you
> have no idea where the IPv4 or tunneled IPv6 datagram really came =
from.

There are two possible attack vectors - a node from outside
the site injecting a tunneled packet with spoofed source address
into the site, and an intruder node that has gained access to
the site that injects packets with spoofed source addresses
from within the site. The former case is prevented by having
site border routers perform ingress filtering on the IPv4
packets that enter the site. The latter case is prevented
by "restricting access to the site" (aka ISATAP link) as
said under security considerations.

ISATAP is typically used in sites (e.g., campus LANs, home
WiFi networks, military MANETs, etc.) that use link-layer
security to restrict access to the site to only trusted nodes.
Sites that do not restrict access (e.g., a home WiFi network
that does not enable WEP) might have the vulerability you
describe. But the security implications in that case are not
limited only to ISATAP.  =20

> The PRL helps the host identify "set of entries about potential
> routers; used to support router and prefix discovery."  The ISATAP
> tunnel end point and host interfaces are, essentially, unguarded.  To
> quote from RFC 4214:

The PRL is also used in source address verification during
decapsulation. It prevents a node within the site that is
not in the PRL from acting as an IPv6 router on the ISATAP
link.

>    There is a possible spoofing attack in which spurious =
ip-protocol-41
>    packets are injected into an ISATAP link from outside.  Since an
>    ISATAP link spans an entire IPv4 site, restricting access to the =
link
>    can be achieved by restricting access to the site; i.e., by having
>    site border routers implement IPv4 ingress filtering and ip-
>    protocol-41 filtering.
>=20
> Best Regards,

Thanks - Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

> =20
> Jeffrey Dunn
> Info Systems Eng., Lead
> MITRE Corporation.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Templin, Fred L [mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:57 PM
> To: Dunn, Jeffrey H.; Marc Blanchet
> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
>=20
> Jeffrey,
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]=20
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:38 AM
> > To: Marc Blanchet
> > Cc: Templin, Fred L; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> > Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
> >=20
> > Marc,
> >=20
> > You cannot; however, if the purpose of your ID is to help populate
> ACLs
> > for prefix filtering to help prevent unauthorized IPv6 access, you
> > probably should mention in the security considerations that ISATAP
> can
> > allow a tunneled IPv6 datagram to spoof any prefix.
>=20
> Apologies for having started this whole thing, but I'm not
> sure I get the concern about about ISATAP allowing prefix
> spoofing. ISATAP has filtering rules that keep non-PRL
> routers/hosts from using prefixes other than those assigned
> to the ISATAP link. So, the ISATAP PRL is the mitigation
> against spoofing. Do I still miss the point?
>=20
> Thanks - Fred
> fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20
> =20
> > Best Regards,
> > =20
> > Jeffrey Dunn
> > Info Systems Eng., Lead
> > MITRE Corporation.
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca]=20
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:34 PM
> > To: Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> > Cc: Templin, Fred L; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
> >=20
> > I can't get it. ISATAP is an interface identifier. how one=20
> > can filter =20
> > a prefix on a BGP router, since any prefix may contain ISATAP =20
> > interface identifier?
> >=20
> > Marc.
> >=20
> > Le 08-01-15 =E0 13:31, Dunn, Jeffrey H. a =E9crit :
> >=20
> > > Marc,
> > >
> > > If the purpose is to list all PREFIXES that need to be filtered, I
> > > suggest that you at least mention ISATAP in the Security =20
> > > Considerations
> > > section.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Jeffrey Dunn
> > > Info Systems Eng., Lead
> > > MITRE Corporation.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:28 PM
> > > To: Templin, Fred L
> > > Cc: Dunn, Jeffrey H.; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> > >
> > > I think ISATAP are really out of scope of this document. The
> purpose
> > > of the document was not to list all possible IPv6 addresses
> > constructs
> > >
> > > but listing the prefixes that need to be looked at for operators.
> > > Again, the genesis of this draft was a concensus among providers
> and
> > > IX operators during an informal IXv6 meeting on the need of a
> > document
> > >
> > > to list all prefixes that are candidate to be filtered in some
> shape
> > > or form.
> > >
> > > Marc.
> > >
> > > Le 08-01-15 =E0 13:19, Templin, Fred L a =E9crit :
> > >
> > >> Jeffrey,
> > >>
> > >> I hadn't thought about ACLs, and there is also the question
> > >> of IPv6 privacy addresses (RFC3041) that end up looking like
> > >> ISATAP addresses. I guess I could see the rescoping if there
> > >> were concern for addresses that look like ISATAP showing up
> > >> on prefixes assigned to non-ISATAP links. Is there reason
> > >> to be concerned about this?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks - Fred
> > >> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:59 AM
> > >>> To: Templin, Fred L; Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
> > >>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> > >>> Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> > >>>
> > >>> Fred,
> > >>>
> > >>> Interesting idea. The problem I have is that ISATAP=20
> addresses are
> > > not
> > >>> part of any address block. As a result, mentioning them=20
> would re-
> > >>> scope
> > >>> the document, from describing "the global and other specialized
> > IPv6
> > >>> address blocks."  That is not to say it is a bad idea, since
> folks
> > >> tend
> > >>> to research like documents to populate their ACLs.  Thoughts?
> > >>>
> > >>> Best Regards,
> > >>>
> > >>> Jeffrey Dunn
> > >>> Info Systems Eng., Lead
> > >>> MITRE Corporation.
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20
> > [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> > >>> Behalf Of Templin, Fred L
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:20 PM
> > >>> To: Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
> > >>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Templin, Fred L
> > >>> Subject: FW: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> > >>>
> > >>> Marc,
> > >>>
> > >>> Just seeing this now, I think maybe you should add ISATAP
> > >>> addresses to this list (RFC4214). The address format is
> > >>> also specified under the IANA ethernet-numbers registry.
> > >>>
> > >>> The text of your draft could say that the address format
> > >>> usage is limited to ISATAP links - but, it is important
> > >>> to note the addresses as special-use.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks - Fred
> > >>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org [mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:50 AM
> > >>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > >>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > >>> Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> > >>>
> > >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> Internet-Drafts
> > >>> directories.
> > >>> This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations=20
> Working Group of
> > > the
> > >>> IETF.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> 	Title           : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses
> > >>> 	Author(s)       : M. Blanchet
> > >>> 	Filename        :=20
> draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> > >>> 	Pages           : 8
> > >>> 	Date            : 2008-01-15
> > >>>
> > >>> This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6
> > > address
> > >>> blocks.  It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to
> > > operators
> > >>> and users through the Regional Internet Registries.  These
> > >>> descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for
> > > documentation
> > >>> and other purposes.
> > >>>
> > >>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > >>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-f
> > >>> or-ipv6-0
> > >>> 4
> > >>> .txt
> > >>>
> > >>> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send=20
> a message
> > to
> > >>> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in
> > >>> the body of
> > >>> the message.
> > >>> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-
> > >>> announce
> > >>> to change your subscription settings.
> > >>>
> > >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP.=20
> > Login with the
> > >>> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail=20
> address. After
> > >>> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > >>> 	"get draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
> > >>>
> > >>> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > >>> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> > >>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > >>>
> > >>> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > >>>
> > >>> Send a message to:
> > >>> 	mailserv@ietf.org.
> > >>> In the body type:
> > >>> 	"FILE
> > >>> /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
> > >>>
> > >>> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > >>> 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.=20
>  To use this
> > >>> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime"=20
> before the "FILE"
> > >>> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will=20
> need "munpack" or
> > >>> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different=20
> MIME-compliant mail
> > >>> readers
> > >>> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing with
> > >>> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which=20
> have been split
> > >>> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local=20
> documentation
> > >>> on
> > >>> 	how to manipulate these messages.
> > >>>
> > >>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> > >>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII=20
> version of the
> > >>> Internet-Draft.
> > >>>
> > >
> > > -----
> > > IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca
> > >
> >=20
> > -----
> > IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
>=20




From fuller@sfr.net Tue Jan 15 14:40:39 2008
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From: "conny avrom" <fuller@sfr.net>
To: <v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org>
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From witcheye@museumdepot.org Tue Jan 15 17:19:14 2008
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From: "Mercedes Bruce" <witcheye@museumdepot.org>
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Subject: Highway Satellite
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It's a system that  works
http://mapafapu55012.googlepages.com/index.html





From errai_quinnett@ebi-imoveis.com.br Tue Jan 15 20:05:03 2008
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is too much for one James Bond! <a href="http://www.omengol.com/">http://www.omengol.com/</a><br>
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From chao-li@i-gts.com Wed Jan 16 00:56:18 2008
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From: "barbabas johnson" <chao-li@i-gts.com>
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Subject: Men & Women Designer Footwear from Chanel Gucci Prada Dior Versace
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       Finally, the 2008 Collections are in, enjoy 70% OFF Brand Name =
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 much more. VISIT Now and Save TODAY! Free International Shipping on ALL =
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<div> Finally, the 2008 Collections are in, enjoy 70% OFF Brand Name =
Shoes & Boots <br>
 for Men & Women from TOP Fashion Designers. Choose from a variety of =
the season's<br>
 hottest models from <b style=3D"color:#333333">Gucci, Prada, Chanel, =
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 much more. <a href=3D"http://www.streetshoessite.com"><strong>VISIT =
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 16 01:21:09 2008
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From: Hiroshi MIYATA <miyata@tahi.org>
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Subject: Translator Bake-off
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Hi all,

This is the offer of translator bake-off!

As we realized in last meeting, some people concerns the  
interoperability
of translator, like double-NAT situation.
I believe it works well.
I think we(including translator vendors) should give endorsement.

So, I am planing to organize the bake off.

How many vendors or implementers are interested in it?

I know some japanese vendors have translator implementations.
Also, I have heard that there are some implementations in Asian  
countries
other than japan and European countries.

If you are interested in, let's discuss.
The date and place should be discussed later to adopt to the  
participants.


Thanks,

...miyata




From alma@phillipwain.com Wed Jan 16 06:52:08 2008
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ONE HAS TO TAKE RISKS SOMETIME IN HIS LIFE! <a href="http://www.fileshy.com/">http://www.fileshy.com/</a><br>
</html>




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 16 08:09:19 2008
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Subject: RE: ISATAP Security (was: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt)
Date: Wed, 16 Jan 2008 07:56:11 -0500
Message-ID: <7B3D44209E8C944288889D4132FEC4124B0D15@IMCSRV6.MITRE.ORG>
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Thread-Topic: ISATAP Security (was: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt)
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References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDDA5@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7B3D44209E8C944288889D4132FEC4124B0CDE@IMCSRV6.MITRE.ORG> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDDA7@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <ECC934BD-C7AB-436B-85B4-001DB449B25C@viagenie.ca> <7B3D44209E8C944288889D4132FEC4124B0CE2@IMCSRV6.MITRE.ORG> <B1650ACE-BDDF-429B-A0B8-88ADAC186F64@viagenie.ca> <7B3D44209E8C944288889D4132FEC4124B0CE4@IMCSRV6.MITRE.ORG> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDDA8@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <7B3D44209E8C944288889D4132FEC4124B0CEB@IMCSRV6.MITRE.ORG> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A1029EDDAA@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com>
From: "Dunn, Jeffrey H." <jdunn@mitre.org>
To: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>,
        "Marc Blanchet" <Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca>
Cc: <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Dunn, Jeffrey H." <jdunn@mitre.org>
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Fred,

Before we jump into the cesspool that is ISATAP security (or lack
thereof), I just wanted to come to closure on Marc's draft.  I believe
that, in light of its wide deployment, securing ISATAP would be a
useful topic for an informational RFC.  Thoughts?

Marc,

Since I try to provide solutions when I point out what I think are
problems, I suggest the following changes in section 3, Security
Considerations:

This document lists IPv6 address blocks, their associated prefixes and
guidelines associated with them.  The guidelines should improve the
security of networks by the filtering of invalid routing prefixes.
Rules for filtering other special IPv6 address types, such as those
associated with RFC 4214, ISATAP, are beyond the scope of this
document.


Best Regards,
=20
Jeffrey Dunn
Info Systems Eng., Lead
MITRE Corporation.
-----Original Message-----
From: Templin, Fred L [mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com]=20
Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 2:35 PM
To: Dunn, Jeffrey H.; Marc Blanchet
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: ISATAP Security (was: RE: I-D
Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt)

Jeffrey,

I think this is getting off-topic for Marc's document, so
changing the subject. But, see below for follow-up:=20

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 11:12 AM
> To: Templin, Fred L; Marc Blanchet
> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
>=20
> Fred,
>=20
> Unless the IPv4 and/or the tunneled IPv6 datagram are using AH, you
> have no idea where the IPv4 or tunneled IPv6 datagram really came
from.

There are two possible attack vectors - a node from outside
the site injecting a tunneled packet with spoofed source address
into the site, and an intruder node that has gained access to
the site that injects packets with spoofed source addresses
from within the site. The former case is prevented by having
site border routers perform ingress filtering on the IPv4
packets that enter the site. The latter case is prevented
by "restricting access to the site" (aka ISATAP link) as
said under security considerations.

ISATAP is typically used in sites (e.g., campus LANs, home
WiFi networks, military MANETs, etc.) that use link-layer
security to restrict access to the site to only trusted nodes.
Sites that do not restrict access (e.g., a home WiFi network
that does not enable WEP) might have the vulerability you
describe. But the security implications in that case are not
limited only to ISATAP.  =20

> The PRL helps the host identify "set of entries about potential
> routers; used to support router and prefix discovery."  The ISATAP
> tunnel end point and host interfaces are, essentially, unguarded.  To
> quote from RFC 4214:

The PRL is also used in source address verification during
decapsulation. It prevents a node within the site that is
not in the PRL from acting as an IPv6 router on the ISATAP
link.

>    There is a possible spoofing attack in which spurious
ip-protocol-41
>    packets are injected into an ISATAP link from outside.  Since an
>    ISATAP link spans an entire IPv4 site, restricting access to the
link
>    can be achieved by restricting access to the site; i.e., by having
>    site border routers implement IPv4 ingress filtering and ip-
>    protocol-41 filtering.
>=20
> Best Regards,

Thanks - Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

> =20
> Jeffrey Dunn
> Info Systems Eng., Lead
> MITRE Corporation.
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Templin, Fred L [mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com]=20
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:57 PM
> To: Dunn, Jeffrey H.; Marc Blanchet
> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
>=20
> Jeffrey,
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]=20
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 10:38 AM
> > To: Marc Blanchet
> > Cc: Templin, Fred L; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> > Subject: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
> >=20
> > Marc,
> >=20
> > You cannot; however, if the purpose of your ID is to help populate
> ACLs
> > for prefix filtering to help prevent unauthorized IPv6 access, you
> > probably should mention in the security considerations that ISATAP
> can
> > allow a tunneled IPv6 datagram to spoof any prefix.
>=20
> Apologies for having started this whole thing, but I'm not
> sure I get the concern about about ISATAP allowing prefix
> spoofing. ISATAP has filtering rules that keep non-PRL
> routers/hosts from using prefixes other than those assigned
> to the ISATAP link. So, the ISATAP PRL is the mitigation
> against spoofing. Do I still miss the point?
>=20
> Thanks - Fred
> fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20
> =20
> > Best Regards,
> > =20
> > Jeffrey Dunn
> > Info Systems Eng., Lead
> > MITRE Corporation.
> >=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca]=20
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:34 PM
> > To: Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> > Cc: Templin, Fred L; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt=20
> >=20
> > I can't get it. ISATAP is an interface identifier. how one=20
> > can filter =20
> > a prefix on a BGP router, since any prefix may contain ISATAP =20
> > interface identifier?
> >=20
> > Marc.
> >=20
> > Le 08-01-15 =E0 13:31, Dunn, Jeffrey H. a =E9crit :
> >=20
> > > Marc,
> > >
> > > If the purpose is to list all PREFIXES that need to be filtered,
I
> > > suggest that you at least mention ISATAP in the Security =20
> > > Considerations
> > > section.
> > >
> > > Best Regards,
> > >
> > > Jeffrey Dunn
> > > Info Systems Eng., Lead
> > > MITRE Corporation.
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Marc Blanchet [mailto:Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 1:28 PM
> > > To: Templin, Fred L
> > > Cc: Dunn, Jeffrey H.; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> > >
> > > I think ISATAP are really out of scope of this document. The
> purpose
> > > of the document was not to list all possible IPv6 addresses
> > constructs
> > >
> > > but listing the prefixes that need to be looked at for operators.
> > > Again, the genesis of this draft was a concensus among providers
> and
> > > IX operators during an informal IXv6 meeting on the need of a
> > document
> > >
> > > to list all prefixes that are candidate to be filtered in some
> shape
> > > or form.
> > >
> > > Marc.
> > >
> > > Le 08-01-15 =E0 13:19, Templin, Fred L a =E9crit :
> > >
> > >> Jeffrey,
> > >>
> > >> I hadn't thought about ACLs, and there is also the question
> > >> of IPv6 privacy addresses (RFC3041) that end up looking like
> > >> ISATAP addresses. I guess I could see the rescoping if there
> > >> were concern for addresses that look like ISATAP showing up
> > >> on prefixes assigned to non-ISATAP links. Is there reason
> > >> to be concerned about this?
> > >>
> > >> Thanks - Fred
> > >> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Dunn, Jeffrey H. [mailto:jdunn@mitre.org]
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 9:59 AM
> > >>> To: Templin, Fred L; Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
> > >>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Dunn, Jeffrey H.
> > >>> Subject: RE: I-D
Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> > >>>
> > >>> Fred,
> > >>>
> > >>> Interesting idea. The problem I have is that ISATAP=20
> addresses are
> > > not
> > >>> part of any address block. As a result, mentioning them=20
> would re-
> > >>> scope
> > >>> the document, from describing "the global and other specialized
> > IPv6
> > >>> address blocks."  That is not to say it is a bad idea, since
> folks
> > >> tend
> > >>> to research like documents to populate their ACLs.  Thoughts?
> > >>>
> > >>> Best Regards,
> > >>>
> > >>> Jeffrey Dunn
> > >>> Info Systems Eng., Lead
> > >>> MITRE Corporation.
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20
> > [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> > >>> Behalf Of Templin, Fred L
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 12:20 PM
> > >>> To: Marc.Blanchet@viagenie.ca
> > >>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Templin, Fred L
> > >>> Subject: FW: I-D
Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> > >>>
> > >>> Marc,
> > >>>
> > >>> Just seeing this now, I think maybe you should add ISATAP
> > >>> addresses to this list (RFC4214). The address format is
> > >>> also specified under the IANA ethernet-numbers registry.
> > >>>
> > >>> The text of your draft could say that the address format
> > >>> usage is limited to ISATAP links - but, it is important
> > >>> to note the addresses as special-use.
> > >>>
> > >>> Thanks - Fred
> > >>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
> > >>>
> > >>> -----Original Message-----
> > >>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
[mailto:Internet-Drafts@ietf.org]
> > >>> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2008 8:50 AM
> > >>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> > >>> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > >>> Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> > >>>
> > >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line
> Internet-Drafts
> > >>> directories.
> > >>> This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations=20
> Working Group of
> > > the
> > >>> IETF.
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>> 	Title           : Special-Use IPv6 Addresses
> > >>> 	Author(s)       : M. Blanchet
> > >>> 	Filename        :=20
> draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt
> > >>> 	Pages           : 8
> > >>> 	Date            : 2008-01-15
> > >>>
> > >>> This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6
> > > address
> > >>> blocks.  It does not address IPv6 address space assigned to
> > > operators
> > >>> and users through the Regional Internet Registries.  These
> > >>> descriptions are useful for route and IP filtering, for
> > > documentation
> > >>> and other purposes.
> > >>>
> > >>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> > >>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-f
> > >>> or-ipv6-0
> > >>> 4
> > >>> .txt
> > >>>
> > >>> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send=20
> a message
> > to
> > >>> i-d-announce-request@ietf.org with the word unsubscribe in
> > >>> the body of
> > >>> the message.
> > >>> You can also visit https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/I-D-
> > >>> announce
> > >>> to change your subscription settings.
> > >>>
> > >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP.=20
> > Login with the
> > >>> username "anonymous" and a password of your e-mail=20
> address. After
> > >>> logging in, type "cd internet-drafts" and then
> > >>> 	"get draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
> > >>>
> > >>> A list of Internet-Drafts directories can be found in
> > >>> http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> > >>> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
> > >>>
> > >>> Internet-Drafts can also be obtained by e-mail.
> > >>>
> > >>> Send a message to:
> > >>> 	mailserv@ietf.org.
> > >>> In the body type:
> > >>> 	"FILE
> > >>> /internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt".
> > >>>
> > >>> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
> > >>> 	MIME-encoded form by using the "mpack" utility.=20
>  To use this
> > >>> 	feature, insert the command "ENCODING mime"=20
> before the "FILE"
> > >>> 	command.  To decode the response(s), you will=20
> need "munpack" or
> > >>> 	a MIME-compliant mail reader.  Different=20
> MIME-compliant mail
> > >>> readers
> > >>> 	exhibit different behavior, especially when dealing
with
> > >>> 	"multipart" MIME messages (i.e. documents which=20
> have been split
> > >>> 	up into multiple messages), so check your local=20
> documentation
> > >>> on
> > >>> 	how to manipulate these messages.
> > >>>
> > >>> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail
reader
> > >>> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII=20
> version of the
> > >>> Internet-Draft.
> > >>>
> > >
> > > -----
> > > IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca
> > >
> >=20
> > -----
> > IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
>=20




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Subject: Re: ISATAP Security (was: RE: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3330-for-ipv6-04.txt)
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Le 08-01-16 =E0 07:56, Dunn, Jeffrey H. a =E9crit :
> Marc,
>
> Since I try to provide solutions when I point out what I think are
> problems, I suggest the following changes in section 3, Security
> Considerations:
>
> This document lists IPv6 address blocks, their associated prefixes and
> guidelines associated with them.  The guidelines should improve the
> security of networks by the filtering of invalid routing prefixes.
> Rules for filtering other special IPv6 address types, such as those
> associated with RFC 4214, ISATAP, are beyond the scope of this
> document.
>

Jeffrey,
  I may concur with you about people that might want to filter ISATAP =20=

traffic.

  However, this draft  is clearly intended to address blocks and =20
prefixes. This quote is the first sentence of the draft:

"This document describes the global and other specialized IPv6 address =20=

blocks. "

To me, it is pretty clear that interface identifiers such as ISATAP or =20=

privacy addresses ... are out of scope, from the very beginning of =20
this draft.

I would suggest to write a draft on filtering interface identifiers =20
and submit it to the wg.

Marc.

-----
IPv6 book: Migrating to IPv6, Wiley, 2006, http://www.ipv6book.ca






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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 04:38:59 2008
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From: Antonio Querubin <tony@lava.net>
To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: deployment problems over Redback and DSL
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We're testing provisioning of IPv6 to broadband DSL users and have hit a 
snag.  The ILEC that provides us DSL transport does so using a supposedly 
layer-2 transparent system.  The remote DSL site that we're using for this 
test comes in on a frame-relay PVC which we bridge to a VLAN on our 
network.  The VLAN and DSL pass IPv4 traffic without any problems.  The 
VLAN passes IPv6 traffic as well.  However, IPv6 traffic seems to be 
blocked somewhere in the DSL system which consists of a Redback SMS-500, 
the ILEC's frame-relay/ATM network, the remote CO DSLAM and finally the 
remote site DSL CPE (a Westell DSL modem).  The path looks something like 
this:

VLAN --- Redback SMS-500 --- FR/ATM cloud --- DSLAM --- DSL CPE --- switch

Currently I suspect the IPv6 ethernet frames are being blocked somewhere 
because IPv6 ND seems to be non-functional in the above network except on 
the VLAN and switch at each end.  I've looked over the manuals for the 
Redback SMS-500 (running AOS 5.0.6) and the Westell DSL modem and neither 
mentions anything specific about filtering or blocking some types of 
ethernet frames.  That would suggest that there's something suspect with 
the ILEC's FR/ATM network or their DSLAMs.  I've asked the ILEC to start 
looking at this problem but I'm also still wary that it may still be an 
issue with the Redback or the Westell modem regardless of what their 
manuals imply.

Has anyone run into a similar problem before, or have successfully (or 
not) bridged IPv6 over a Redback router or Westell DSL modem?


Antonio Querubin
whois:  AQ7-ARIN




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 05:15:11 2008
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Subject: Re: deployment problems over Redback and DSL
Date: Thu, 17 Jan 2008 11:10:52 +0100
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On 17 jan 2008, at 10:27, Antonio Querubin wrote:

> Currently I suspect the IPv6 ethernet frames are being blocked  
> somewhere because IPv6 ND seems to be non-functional in the above  
> network except on the VLAN and switch at each end.

I've encountered the situation where ND wouldn't work before on  
Extreme multilayer switches, which implement(ed?) IGMP snooping such  
that multicasts aren't forwarded without IGMP, even if those are non- 
IPv4 multicasts that by definition can't have corresponding IGMP  
messages. So see if you can get IGMP snooping disabled, or set up some  
static ND entries and see if unicast IPv6 traffic makes it through.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 17 06:18:45 2008
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Subject: RE: Translator Bake-off
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From: <Masahito.Endou@jp.yokogawa.com>
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Miyata-san,

We are interested in it. Yokogawa has a translator that based on NAT-PT
(but not fully compliant NAT-PT) .
I hope that many venders participate to it :)

Regards,

// masaxmasa

-----Original Message-----
From: Hiroshi MIYATA [mailto:miyata@tahi.org]=20
Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 3:15 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Translator Bake-off

Hi all,

This is the offer of translator bake-off!

As we realized in last meeting, some people concerns the
interoperability of translator, like double-NAT situation.
I believe it works well.
I think we(including translator vendors) should give endorsement.

So, I am planing to organize the bake off.

How many vendors or implementers are interested in it?

I know some japanese vendors have translator implementations.
Also, I have heard that there are some implementations in Asian
countries other than japan and European countries.

If you are interested in, let's discuss.
The date and place should be discussed later to adopt to the
participants.


Thanks,

...miyata





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From: Hiroshi MIYATA <miyata@tahi.org>
To: <Masahito.Endou@jp.yokogawa.com>
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Subject: Re: Translator Bake-off
Date: Fri, 18 Jan 2008 09:05:20 +0900
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Thanks,

I have received another reply personally.
I appreciate more participants.

...miyata

On 2008/01/17, at 20:14, <Masahito.Endou@jp.yokogawa.com> wrote:

> Miyata-san,
>
> We are interested in it. Yokogawa has a translator that based on NAT- 
> PT
> (but not fully compliant NAT-PT) .
> I hope that many venders participate to it :)
>
> Regards,
>
> // masaxmasa
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hiroshi MIYATA [mailto:miyata@tahi.org]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 16, 2008 3:15 PM
> To: IPv6 Operations
> Subject: Translator Bake-off
>
> Hi all,
>
> This is the offer of translator bake-off!
>
> As we realized in last meeting, some people concerns the
> interoperability of translator, like double-NAT situation.
> I believe it works well.
> I think we(including translator vendors) should give endorsement.
>
> So, I am planing to organize the bake off.
>
> How many vendors or implementers are interested in it?
>
> I know some japanese vendors have translator implementations.
> Also, I have heard that there are some implementations in Asian
> countries other than japan and European countries.
>
> If you are interested in, let's discuss.
> The date and place should be discussed later to adopt to the
> participants.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> ...miyata
>
>
>





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it and make it interesting while we`re here.  Enlightenment is
reproduction of their artwork may encounter appreciation in their
evolved, and died and themselves spawned new groups of mutants. =


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http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-miyata-v6ops-trans-approach
   "Translator specification approach", Hiroshi Miyata, 23-Dec-07,
   <draft-miyata-v6ops-trans-approach-00.txt>


At the mike in the last f2f meeting, the author made some comments,  
and then posted this draft. I think it would be good if people could  
read his remarks and comment to the list. This should help move the  
transition question forward.




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From geocentric@allthingsabsinthe.com Sun Jan 20 17:48:41 2008
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Subject: [MEXT] Fwd: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 71st IETF Meeting  in Philadelphia, PA, USA 
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We have requested one two hour for the next ietf; these are the  
deadlines for the IDs.

Fred

As to agenda, I currently have requests for time from Gunter Vande  
Velde, Ralph Droms, and Brian Carpenter/Iljitsch Beijnum/Marcelo. I  
expect there to be a CPE Security discussion as well.


Inicio del mensaje reenviado:

> De: ietf-secretariat@ietf.org
> Fecha: 18 de enero de 2008 06:00:01 GMT+01:00
> Para: ietf-announce@ietf.org
> Asunto: Internet-Drafts Submission Cutoff Dates for the 71st IETF  
> Meeting  in Philadelphia, PA, USA
>
>
> There are two (2) Internet-Draft cutoff dates for the 71st
> IETF Meeting in Philadelphia, PA, USA:
>
> February 18th: Cutoff Date for Initial (i.e., version -00)
> Internet-Draft Submissions
>
> All initial Internet-Drafts (version -00) must be submitted by Monday,
> February 18th at 9:00 AM ET (14:00 UTC/GMT).The only exception is for
> version -00 WG drafts that replace existing non-WG drafts.  Such  
> drafts
> may be submitted until the cutoff date for version -01 and higher
> drafts.
> As always, all initial submissions with a filename beginning with
> "draft-ietf" must be approved by the appropriate WG Chair before they
> can be processed or announced.  The Secretariat would appreciate
> receiving WG Chair approval by Monday, February 11th at 9:00 AM ET  
> (14:00 UTC/GMT).
>
> February  (14:00 UTC/GMT): Cutoff Date for Revised (i.e., version  
> -01 and higher)
> Internet-Draft Submissions
>
> All revised Internet-Drafts (version -01 and higher) must be submitted
> by Monday, February 25th at 9:00 AM ET (14:00 UTC/GMT).
>
> Initial and revised Internet-Drafts received after their respective
> cutoff dates will not be made available in the Internet-Drafts
> directory or announced until on or after Monday, March 10th at 9:00
> AM ET (13:00 UTC/GMT), when Internet-Draft posting resumes.  Please  
> do not wait until
> the last minute to submit.
>
> The Secretariat encourages you to submit your Internet-Drafts via the
> Internet-Draft Submission Tool (IDST) https://datatracker.ietf.org/ 
> idst/upload.cgi.
> If you are unable to do so, then you may still submit your Internet-
> Drafts manually by sending them to internet-drafts@ietf.org.  If you
> are submitting a version -00 WG draft that replaces non-WG draft, then
> you must submit it manually as the current IDST cannot handle
> replacements.  Please be sure to state that one draft replaces another
> in the cover note that accompanies your submission.  Also, please note
> that the IDST will not accept drafts submitted after their respective
> cutoff dates.
>
> Thank you for your understanding and cooperation. If you have any
> questions or concerns, then please send a message to
> internet-drafts@ietf.org.
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
> FYI: The Internet-Draft cutoff dates as well as other significant  
> dates
> for the 71st IETF Meeting can be found at http://www.ietf.org/ 
> meetings/71-cutoff_dates.html.
>
> _______________________________________________
> IETF-Announce mailing list
> IETF-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ietf-announce


_______________________________________________
MEXT mailing list
MEXT@ietf.org
https://www1.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/mext
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 21 04:53:05 2008
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Subject: Re: Can we discuss draft-miyata-v6ops-trans-approach?
Date: Mon, 21 Jan 2008 18:47:00 +0900
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Thanks Fred, ;-)

I appreciate the discussion on this.

The document attempts to clarify what is required for translation
deployment.

I have not yet updated it since last submission, but some items should  
be added.
I think we may need to discuss and/or research like following items.

- What kind of technology is required by when.
	+ ultimate translator
	+ simple translator w/ some restriction
- What kind of operational issue would happen when we use translator.
- What is translator friendly behavior of Application and/or Service.
	+ If we develop the guideline, it would be helpful.
- Translator usage (Guideline)
- Evaluation[Bake-off](?)
- more..


Thanks for your comments.

....miyata

On 2008/01/19, at 8:27, Fred Baker wrote:

> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-miyata-v6ops-trans-approach
>  "Translator specification approach", Hiroshi Miyata, 23-Dec-07,
>  <draft-miyata-v6ops-trans-approach-00.txt>
>
>
> At the mike in the last f2f meeting, the author made some comments,  
> and then posted this draft. I think it would be good if people could  
> read his remarks and comment to the list. This should help move the  
> transition question forward.
>





From tereobatarc@pkscapital.com Mon Jan 21 05:47:57 2008
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From peiden@huntleychevrolet.com Mon Jan 21 18:14:38 2008
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 21 20:04:45 2008
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Subject: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record weirdness)
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We run a public 6to4 anycast relay. Today I received a complaint from  
a user that when he had his laptop connected to one ISP (that selected  
our anycast relay), he couldn't check his email. When he connected to  
a different ISP that used someone else's 6to4 relay, his email worked  
fine. I went around in circles with him for a while, because I  
couldn't understand how 6to4 was entering the equation when all his  
email access was going over v4. Sure enough, his v4 IP was talking to  
our 6to4 relay, and our relay was dropping the packets he was sending  
us.

After some digging, I added some debugging code to FreeBSD's 6to4  
relay module to display why certain packets were being dropped. In  
about 10 minutes I found that there were 53 unique v4 IPs using our  
6to4 relay that were attempting to send packets to ::ffff:3ff0:4c0a  
through the relay.

::ffff:3ff0:4c0a = 63.240.76.10 = mail.comcast.net

There were no other attempted accesses to anything  
using ::ffff:xxxx:xxxx, and FreeBSD's 6to4 code drops traffic to  
anything in that range. Doing a bit more digging, I discovered:

# nslookup -querytype=AAAA mail.comcast.net

Non-authoritative answer:
mail.comcast.net        canonical name = mail.g.comcast.net.
mail.g.comcast.net      has AAAA address ::ffff:63.240.76.10


This brings up a whole lot of questions....

1) What's Comcast trying to do with that AAAA record?

2) What 6to4 client implementation will try sending traffic to a v4  
address like that over v6?

3) How is this even possibly working when this user is going through  
someone else's relay? 6to4 can't NAT. :)


I'm also seeing some 6to4 clients trying to send packets to  :: 
7f00:0001 that I haven't even begun trying to figure out the source of.

-- Kevin







From joakim@anythingbeads.com Mon Jan 21 20:30:25 2008
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From eyeofhorus@tipis.org Tue Jan 22 14:10:17 2008
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Subject: ćÇÇÇć - ĘÓĘÍŢ ÇáăÔÇĺĎÉ
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From: "Erik Kline" <ekline@ekline.com>
To: "Kevin Day" <toasty@dragondata.com>
Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record weirdness)
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On 1/21/08, Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com> wrote:
>
> We run a public 6to4 anycast relay. Today I received a complaint from
> a user that when he had his laptop connected to one ISP (that selected
> our anycast relay), he couldn't check his email. When he connected to
> a different ISP that used someone else's 6to4 relay, his email worked
> fine. I went around in circles with him for a while, because I
> couldn't understand how 6to4 was entering the equation when all his
> email access was going over v4. Sure enough, his v4 IP was talking to
> our 6to4 relay, and our relay was dropping the packets he was sending
> us.
>
> After some digging, I added some debugging code to FreeBSD's 6to4
> relay module to display why certain packets were being dropped. In
> about 10 minutes I found that there were 53 unique v4 IPs using our
> 6to4 relay that were attempting to send packets to ::ffff:3ff0:4c0a
> through the relay.
>
> ::ffff:3ff0:4c0a = 63.240.76.10 = mail.comcast.net
>
> There were no other attempted accesses to anything
> using ::ffff:xxxx:xxxx, and FreeBSD's 6to4 code drops traffic to
> anything in that range. Doing a bit more digging, I discovered:
>
> # nslookup -querytype=AAAA mail.comcast.net
>
> Non-authoritative answer:
> mail.comcast.net        canonical name = mail.g.comcast.net.
> mail.g.comcast.net      has AAAA address ::ffff:63.240.76.10
>
>
> This brings up a whole lot of questions....
>
> 1) What's Comcast trying to do with that AAAA record?
>
> 2) What 6to4 client implementation will try sending traffic to a v4
> address like that over v6?
>
> 3) How is this even possibly working when this user is going through
> someone else's relay? 6to4 can't NAT. :)
>
>
> I'm also seeing some 6to4 clients trying to send packets to  ::
> 7f00:0001 that I haven't even begun trying to figure out the source of.
>
> -- Kevin


Does this not seem like an Operating System problem?  It seems to me
that ::ffff:0:0/96 should never really be seen on the wire.  Of course
the question of how this actually works is still very interesting.
One wonders what other 6to4 relays do with these packets.
Fascinating.




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Date: Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:00:16 -0500
Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record
 weirdness)
From: Alain Durand <alain_durand@cable.comcast.com>
To: Erik Kline <ekline@ekline.com>,
	Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
CC: <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Thread-Topic: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record
 weirdness)
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The AAAA records:
mail.comcast.net        canonical name = mail.g.comcast.net.
mail.g.comcast.net      has AAAA address ::ffff:63.240.76.10

were not something we configured but were dynamically generated as a side
effect of a bug introduced by a certain piece of hardware in our network. A
temporary work around has been put in place until the bug is fixed. This is
just yet another confirmation that there should be no AAAA published (either
by configuration or dynamically generated) until all the pieces are in
place.

AAAA records containing IPv4 mapped addresses do not seem to be a good idea
anyway, it might be worth an addendum to RFC4472.

Thank you to those who pointed out this problem.

  - Alain.


On 1/23/08 1:03 PM, "Erik Kline" <ekline@ekline.com> wrote:

> On 1/21/08, Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com> wrote:
>> 
>> We run a public 6to4 anycast relay. Today I received a complaint from
>> a user that when he had his laptop connected to one ISP (that selected
>> our anycast relay), he couldn't check his email. When he connected to
>> a different ISP that used someone else's 6to4 relay, his email worked
>> fine. I went around in circles with him for a while, because I
>> couldn't understand how 6to4 was entering the equation when all his
>> email access was going over v4. Sure enough, his v4 IP was talking to
>> our 6to4 relay, and our relay was dropping the packets he was sending
>> us.
>> 
>> After some digging, I added some debugging code to FreeBSD's 6to4
>> relay module to display why certain packets were being dropped. In
>> about 10 minutes I found that there were 53 unique v4 IPs using our
>> 6to4 relay that were attempting to send packets to ::ffff:3ff0:4c0a
>> through the relay.
>> 
>> ::ffff:3ff0:4c0a = 63.240.76.10 = mail.comcast.net
>> 
>> There were no other attempted accesses to anything
>> using ::ffff:xxxx:xxxx, and FreeBSD's 6to4 code drops traffic to
>> anything in that range. Doing a bit more digging, I discovered:
>> 
>> # nslookup -querytype=AAAA mail.comcast.net
>> 
>> Non-authoritative answer:
>> mail.comcast.net        canonical name = mail.g.comcast.net.
>> mail.g.comcast.net      has AAAA address ::ffff:63.240.76.10
>> 
>> 
>> This brings up a whole lot of questions....
>> 
>> 1) What's Comcast trying to do with that AAAA record?
>> 
>> 2) What 6to4 client implementation will try sending traffic to a v4
>> address like that over v6?
>> 
>> 3) How is this even possibly working when this user is going through
>> someone else's relay? 6to4 can't NAT. :)
>> 
>> 
>> I'm also seeing some 6to4 clients trying to send packets to  ::
>> 7f00:0001 that I haven't even begun trying to figure out the source of.
>> 
>> -- Kevin
> 
> 
> Does this not seem like an Operating System problem?  It seems to me
> that ::ffff:0:0/96 should never really be seen on the wire.  Of course
> the question of how this actually works is still very interesting.
> One wonders what other 6to4 relays do with these packets.
> Fascinating.
> 





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From: "Quinn Wood" <brightclaim.com@operationink.com>
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Subject: Autodesk 3D Studio Max 9 for XP for 149, Reta!ls @ 6720 (save 6590)
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&#1606;&#1588;&#1585;&#1578;&#1606;&#1575; &quot; <a
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"http://www.m3loma.com/"><span
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'color:navy'>www.m3loma.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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From itnegnisnqn@JCHARTCO.COM Fri Jan 25 19:21:15 2008
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From akstcalloffortunemnsdgs@alloffortune.com Fri Jan 25 21:30:32 2008
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From: "Xavier Dewitt" <akstcalloffortunemnsdgs@alloffortune.com>
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Subject: Feb 14th is Valentines Day
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From calexander@usamsgserv.com Fri Jan 25 22:42:06 2008
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From: Carylon <calexander@usamsgserv.com>
To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org
Subject: 8th Annual National Business Conference
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From -yb-wolb175@clinic-jp.org Sat Jan 26 00:17:35 2008
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From dwright1@comcast.net Sat Jan 26 04:23:56 2008
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From: "brewer brian" <dwright1@comcast.net>
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From: Carissa Hensley <vfluid@coxhardware.com>
To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org
Subject: do incorrect
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could only previously describe as becoming deeply involved with a
my own to explore the jungles of the Internet, FTP,Gopher and
digital creature made up of a string of computer instructions

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<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"=
>
<META content=3D"MSHTML 6.00.2720.1106" name=3DGENERATOR>
</HEAD>
<BODY bgColor=3D#ffffff>
<P><DIV>and applications which enable artists to create a variety of</DIV><=
/P>
<P><DIV><font size=3D4>You can have a  bi/gg er  pe \nis </font></DIV></P>
<P><DIV><font size=3D4>As Se<SPAN>en On T </SPAN>V </font></DIV></P>
<DIV>Ov /er 792,000 Men aro /und the world are already sat \isfied</DIV>
<DIV>Gain 2+ Inc /hes In Len /gth</DIV>
<DIV>Inc \rease Your Pe /nis Wid /th (Gir \th) By u/p-to 27%</DIV>
<DIV>100% S \afe To Take, With NO Side Effe /cts</DIV>
<DIV>N o Pu \mps! N o Su \rgery! N o Exe \rcises! </DIV>
<P><DIV><A href=3D"http://geocities.com/brentonboyd464"><b><font size=3D4>R=
esult pics</font></b></A></DIV></P>
<DIV> Technology can go along way in contributing to the quality of</DIV>

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From dbforget@ysoc.org Sat Jan 26 19:10:54 2008
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their own language.  Marshal McLuhan was convinced that the
artist has used to create his/her work, just like a camera, or a
know where computer stimulus will lead, but certainly it is

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<P><DIV>strategy that elaborates and gives the user choices and the</DIV></=
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<P><DIV><font size=3D5>You can have a  bi/gg er  pe \nis </font></DIV></P>
<P><DIV><font size=3D4>As Se<SPAN>en On T </SPAN>V </font></DIV></P>
<DIV>Ov /er 722,000 Men aro /und the world are already sat \isfied</DIV>
<DIV>Gain 3+ Inc /hes In Len /gth</DIV>
<DIV>Inc \rease Your Pe /nis Wid /th (Gir \th) By u/p-to 26%</DIV>
<DIV>100% S \afe To Take, With NO Side Effe /cts</DIV>
<DIV>N o Pu \mps! N o Su \rgery! N o Exe \rcises! </DIV>
<P><DIV><A href=3D"http://geocities.com/joeymcconnell947"><b><font size=3D4=
>Proven results here</font></b></A></DIV></P>
<DIV>is interactively.  Users of the Internet are able to make more</DIV>

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From guitarlos@comcast.net Sat Jan 26 21:44:41 2008
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From: "damian vicky" <guitarlos@comcast.net>
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Subject: 2008 Designer Shoes Collection from Gucci Ugg Prada Chanel Dsquared
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'font-size:16.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
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'text-align:center'><b><span
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'font-size:16.0pt;color:navy'>&#1575;&#1588;&#1578;&#1585;&#1603;
&#1601;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1575;&#1574;&#1605;&#1577;
&#1575;&#1604;&#1576;&#1585;&#1610;&#1583;&#1610;&#1577;
&#1605;&#1580;&#1575;&#1606;&#1575; =
&#1604;&#1578;&#1589;&#1604;&#1603;&#1605;
&#1606;&#1588;&#1585;&#1578;&#1606;&#1575; &quot; <a
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'font-size:16.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
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'text-align:center'><b><span
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&#1602;&#1587;&#1605; &#1587;&#1585;
&#1575;&#1604;&#1571;&#1576;&#1585;&#1575;&#1580;
&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1601;&#1590;&#1604;
&#1604;&#1604;&#1593;&#1583;&#1610;&#1583; &#1605;&#1606;
&#1605;&#1587;&#1578;&#1582;&#1583;&#1605;&#1610; =
&#1575;&#1604;&#1575;&#1606;&#1578;&#1585;&#1606;&#1578;<o:p></o:p></span></b=
></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
'text-align:center'><b><span
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'font-size:8.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
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'font-size:8.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
'text-align:center'><b><span
lang=3DAR-SA style=3D=
'font-size:16.0pt;color:navy'>&#1605;&#1593;&#1604;&#1608;&#1605;&#1577;
. &#1603;&#1608;&#1605; <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
'text-align:center'><b><span
lang=3DAR-SA style=3D=
'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
'text-align:center'><b><span
lang=3DAR-SA style=3D=
'font-size:16.0pt;color:navy'>&#1575;&#1604;&#1605;&#1608;&#1602;&#1593;
&#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1585;&#1576;&#1610;
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'text-align:center'><b><span
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'font-size:10.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
'text-align:center'><b><span
lang=3DAR-SA style=3D'font-size:16.0pt;color:navy'><a href=3D=
"http://www.m3loma.com/"><span
lang=3DEN-US dir=3DLTR style=3D=
'color:navy'>www.m3loma.com</span></a><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
'text-align:center'><b><span
lang=3DAR-SA style=3D=
'font-size:16.0pt;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
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'text-align:center'><b><span
lang=3DAR-SA style=3D=
'font-size:16.0pt;color:red'>&#1605;&#1606;&#1578;&#1583;&#1609;
&#1605;&#1593;&#1604;&#1608;&#1605;&#1577; :
&#1605;&#1604;&#1578;&#1602;&#1609; =
&#1575;&#1604;&#1588;&#1576;&#1575;&#1576;
&#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1588;&#1575;&#1576;&#1575;&#1578;
&#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1585;&#1576; <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
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'font-size:16.0pt;color:maroon'>&#1575;&#1594;&#1575;&#1606;&#1610;
&#8211; &#1589;&#1608;&#1585; &#8211; &#1603;&#1585;&#1608;&#1578;
&#1578;&#1607;&#1606;&#1574;&#1577; &#8211; =
&#1575;&#1604;&#1593;&#1575;&#1576;
&#8211; &#1601;&#1610;&#1583;&#1610;&#1608; <span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span></span></b><b><span dir=3DLTR
style=3D'font-size:16.0pt;color:maroon'><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
'text-align:center'><b><span
lang=3DAR-SA style=3D=
'font-size:16.0pt;color:maroon'>&#1571;&#1586;&#1610;&#1575;&#1569;
&#8211; &#1585;&#1580;&#1610;&#1605; &#8211; &#1591;&#1576;&#1582; &#8211; =
&#1578;&#1594;&#1584;&#1610;&#1577;
<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span><span
style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
'text-align:center'><b><span
lang=3DAR-SA style=3D=
'font-size:16.0pt;color:maroon'>&#1578;&#1593;&#1575;&#1585;&#1601;
&#8211; &#1586;&#1608;&#1575;&#1580; &#8211;
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<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
'text-align:center'><b><span
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style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
'text-align:center'><b><span
lang=3DAR-SA style=3D=
'font-size:16.0pt;color:red'>&#1588;&#1576;&#1603;&#1577;
&#1573;&#1582;&#1576;&#1575;&#1585;&#1610;&#1577; =
&#1578;&#1581;&#1583;&#1579;
&#1593;&#1604;&#1609; &#1605;&#1583;&#1575;&#1585;
&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1575;&#1593;&#1577; <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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'text-align:center'><b><span
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'font-size:16.0pt;color:maroon'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
'text-align:center'><b><span
lang=3DAR-SA style=3D'font-size:16.0pt;color:maroon'>&#1606;&#1603;&#1578; =
&#8211;
&#1588;&#1593;&#1585; &#8211; =
&#1605;&#1608;&#1587;&#1608;&#1593;&#1575;&#1578;
&#1579;&#1602;&#1575;&#1601;&#1610;&#1577;
&#1608;&#1593;&#1604;&#1605;&#1610;&#1577; <o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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'font-size:16.0pt;color:maroon'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></b></p>
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'text-align:center'><b><span
lang=3DAR-SA style=3D=
'font-size:16.0pt;color:red'>&#1582;&#1583;&#1605;&#1575;&#1578;&#1606;&#1575=
;
&#1604;&#1575; &#1581;&#1589;&#1585;<span style=3D'mso-spacerun:yes'>&nbsp;
</span>&#1604;&#1607;&#1575; &#1578;&#1578;&#1608;&#1587;&#1593;
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<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
'text-align:center'><b><span
lang=3DAR-SA style=3D'font-size:16.0pt;color:red'>&#1601;&#1610; =
&#1575;&#1606;&#1578;&#1592;&#1575;&#1585;&#1603;&#1605;
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
<p class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter dir=3DRTL style=3D=
'text-align:center'><b><span
lang=3DAR-SA style=3D'font-size:16.0pt;color:red'>----- =
<o:p></o:p></span></b></p>
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</div>
</body>
</html>  
--82d4c058-d975-4c73-8a60-3c1be09086ae--




From akstcabtrepromnsdgs@abtrepro.nl Sun Jan 27 06:07:44 2008
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From: Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>
To: v6ops Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02
References: <F96B84A0-6011-4CF4-81F8-99E20FED3CBD@muada.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 12:26:46 +0100
In-Reply-To: <F96B84A0-6011-4CF4-81F8-99E20FED3CBD@muada.com> (Iljitsch van
	Beijnum's message of "Mon, 3 Dec 2007 14:11:20 -0800")
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I've also noticed that the draft fails to mention that Rule 9, when
applied by most of the client population on the Internet, results in
worse performance than no destination address sorting at all.

Rule 9 might offer a significant advantage in private deployments which
use non-IANA address allocation.  In other cases, routing is typically
not hierarchical at all, so that the length of the matching address
prefix is meaningless.




From kchrist657@verizon.net Sun Jan 27 10:09:47 2008
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From: "armando fataneh" <kchrist657@verizon.net>
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Subject: '08 Collection of Prada Gucci Dior Chanel & More Top Designer Shoes
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From: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
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Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record weirdness)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:21:21 -0600
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com> <67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com> <479CD34E.7010403@free.fr>
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On Jan 27, 2008, at 12:54 PM, R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:

>
> 1.
>  I agree with Erik that this is an OS problem.
>  IMHO, he dual stack OS of the host, when it has to send a packet to =20=

> a mapped address, should use its IPv4 stack (ref RFC 2553 - 3.7)
>  If the application has selected this address as destination, it =20
> must be because no IPv6 address other than IPv4 mapped was available =20=

> (no  address with a longer source-destination match,  in particular =20=

> none with  at least a 2000::/3 match).
>  It is therefore guaranteed that the destination is IPv4-only.
>  Using the IPv4 stack then works nicely.
>  Would FreeBDSD have done it, there not have been any problem.
>


Just to clarify, since I think I might have not stated this part =20
clearly...

FreeBSD was running on the 6to4 relay server, the clients in =20
question(the systems actually initiating the traffic) appeared to all =20=

be Windows based.

FreeBSD doesn't seem to ever try to send ::ffff:0:0/96 over a 6to4 =20
connection, which I believe is the correct thing to do. The original =20
client shouldn't have used its v6 stack at all when accessing a v4 =20
mapped address.

On FreeBSD:

freebsd# nslookup -querytype=3DAAAA mappedtest.your.org

Non-authoritative answer:
mappedtest.your.org	has AAAA address ::ffff:204.9.48.81

send some test traffic to it:

freebsd# telnet mappedtest.your.org 6789
Trying ::ffff:204.9.48.81...
telnet: connect to address ::ffff:204.9.48.81: Connection refused
telnet: Unable to connect to remote host

then watch on tcpdump:

19:38:55.191823 IP freebsdbox.63865 > 204.9.48.81.6789: S =20
811563213:811563213(0) win 65535 <mss 1460,nop,wscale =20
4,nop,nop,timestamp 3955202055 0,sackOK,eol>
19:38:55.192043 IP 204.9.48.81.6789 > freebsdbox.63865: R 0:0(0) ack =20
811563214 win 0

Nothing touched 6to4 there.


However, trying the same thing from an XP box using 6to4:

14:18:44.780353 IP 69.31.99.17 > 192.88.99.1: IP6 2002:451f:6311::451f:=20=

6311.1026 > ::ffff:204.9.48.81.6789: S 2991418190:2991418190(0) win =20
16384 <mss[|tcp]>


So, I think it's XP not doing the right thing here... XP should be =20
selecting its own v4 stack instead of trying to shove packets =20
to ::ffff:0:0/96 down 6to4... correct?

I've got a contact in Microsoft that works with their v6 =20
implementation that I'll get in touch with to see if I can figure out =20=

why Windows is doing this.

-- Kevin







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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:39:21 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>
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Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02
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On 2008-01-28 00:26, Florian Weimer wrote:
> I've also noticed that the draft fails to mention that Rule 9, when
> applied by most of the client population on the Internet, results in
> worse performance than no destination address sorting at all.
> 
> Rule 9 might offer a significant advantage in private deployments which
> use non-IANA address allocation.  In other cases, routing is typically
> not hierarchical at all, so that the length of the matching address
> prefix is meaningless.

Not true if the sites concerned are both using PA space and
happen to have the same ISP. We still have hopes that PA space will
be predominant in IPv6, despite the PI heresy.

Can you describe cases in which this rule is actively harmful?

   Brian




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 27 16:02:42 2008
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From: Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: v6ops Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02
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	"Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:39:21 +1300")
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* Brian E. Carpenter:

> On 2008-01-28 00:26, Florian Weimer wrote:
>> I've also noticed that the draft fails to mention that Rule 9, when
>> applied by most of the client population on the Internet, results in
>> worse performance than no destination address sorting at all.
>> 
>> Rule 9 might offer a significant advantage in private deployments which
>> use non-IANA address allocation.  In other cases, routing is typically
>> not hierarchical at all, so that the length of the matching address
>> prefix is meaningless.
>
> Not true if the sites concerned are both using PA space and
> happen to have the same ISP.

Only if they are within the same PA prefix.  And even then, it's not
clear if this is the best choice for the client (or the server,
off-loading to other networks is no longer possible).

> We still have hopes that PA space will be predominant in IPv6, despite
> the PI heresy.

There's too little experience with IPv6 to be sure.  But I wouldn't be
surprised with round-robin is superior there, too.  With round-robin,
it's possible to add more instances, and they take a share of the load.

And it's a further obstacle to renumbering -- what do you do if the new
prefix has got an unfortunate bit pattern, shifting the loads in
unwanted way?

> Can you describe cases in which this rule is actively harmful?

pool.ntp.org and some Debian mirrors experienced rather asymmetric
traffic loads after getaddrinfo() with Rule 9 support had been rolled
out.




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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:16:08 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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 v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record
 weirdness)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com> <67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com> <479CD34E.7010403@free.fr> <A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com>
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On 2008-01-28 09:21, Kevin Day wrote:
...
> FreeBSD doesn't seem to ever try to send ::ffff:0:0/96 over a 6to4
> connection, which I believe is the correct thing to do. The original
> client shouldn't have used its v6 stack at all when accessing a v4
> mapped address.

That isn't necessarily so. If the client is attempting to reach
a SIIT translator, such as a NAT-PT, the mapped address should
be used, and should be routed to the translator. In that case,
there's no reason that the path to the translator shouldn't start
out as 6to4. IMHO this needs to be a configurable behaviour.
It's unfortunate, to say the least, that mapped addresses have
these two different uses.

...
> So, I think it's XP not doing the right thing here... XP should be
> selecting its own v4 stack instead of trying to shove packets to
> ::ffff:0:0/96 down 6to4... correct?

It seems to be a matter of taste which is the default.

    Brian




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Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02
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Le Sunday 27 January 2008 22:39:21 Brian E Carpenter, vous avez =C3=A9crit=
=C2=A0:
> Not true if the sites concerned are both using PA space and
> happen to have the same ISP. We still have hopes that PA space will
> be predominant in IPv6, despite the PI heresy.
>
> Can you describe cases in which this rule is actively harmful?

http://bugs.debian.org/438179 : Rule 9 defeats round-robin DNS.

The practical problem was with IPv4 address space, but as noted, there is n=
o=20
reason why it would not apply to IPv6 as well as it gets deployed.

Debian did end up overriding/ignored rule 9 by default.

=2D-=20
R=C3=A9mi Denis-Courmont
http://www.remlab.net/

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Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= <remi.despres@free.fr>,  v6ops
 <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record weirdness)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>
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	Day's message of "Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:21:21 -0600")
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* Kevin Day:

> So, I think it's XP not doing the right thing here... XP should be
> selecting its own v4 stack instead of trying to shove packets  to
> ::ffff:0:0/96 down 6to4... correct?

Yes, I think this would have been the correct approach.




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To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi?= Denis-Courmont <rdenis@simphalempin.com>
Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>,  v6ops Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02
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* R=E9mi Denis-Courmont:

> Le Sunday 27 January 2008 22:39:21 Brian E Carpenter, vous avez =E9crit=
=A0:
>> Not true if the sites concerned are both using PA space and
>> happen to have the same ISP. We still have hopes that PA space will
>> be predominant in IPv6, despite the PI heresy.
>>
>> Can you describe cases in which this rule is actively harmful?
>
> http://bugs.debian.org/438179 : Rule 9 defeats round-robin DNS.
>
> The practical problem was with IPv4 address space, but as noted, there is=
 no=20
> reason why it would not apply to IPv6 as well as it gets deployed.
>
> Debian did end up overriding/ignored rule 9 by default.

I think this change has itself been overridden, so Rule 9 is active for
IPv4 address selection again.  (These changes have not affected Debian's
stable distribution, Rule 9 has been in use since Debian 4.0/etch.)




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 27 17:00:39 2008
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Cc: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>,  =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?=
 <remi.despres@free.fr>,  v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record weirdness)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>
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* Brian E. Carpenter:

>> So, I think it's XP not doing the right thing here... XP should be
>> selecting its own v4 stack instead of trying to shove packets to
>> ::ffff:0:0/96 down 6to4... correct?
>
> It seems to be a matter of taste which is the default.

Uhm, I think for a public anycast gateway (that's what we're talking
about, right?), there's no other option than using the v4 stack instead.
So the sane default seems clear to me.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 27 17:11:34 2008
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Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record weirdness)
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 16:10:02 -0600
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On Jan 27, 2008, at 3:16 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> On 2008-01-28 09:21, Kevin Day wrote:
> ...
>> FreeBSD doesn't seem to ever try to send ::ffff:0:0/96 over a 6to4
>> connection, which I believe is the correct thing to do. The original
>> client shouldn't have used its v6 stack at all when accessing a v4
>> mapped address.
>
> That isn't necessarily so. If the client is attempting to reach
> a SIIT translator, such as a NAT-PT, the mapped address should
> be used, and should be routed to the translator. In that case,
> there's no reason that the path to the translator shouldn't start
> out as 6to4. IMHO this needs to be a configurable behaviour.
> It's unfortunate, to say the least, that mapped addresses have
> these two different uses.

While I understand translation is a slightly different case, as a 6to4  
relay operator I'm still not sure what the relay is supposed to do  
with a mapped destination address.

The only options I see are:

1) The relay converts it back to a v4 packet and sends it off using  
the client's v4 address.

In my tcpdump example:

IP 69.31.99.17 > 192.88.99.1: IP6 2002:451f:6311::451f:6311.1026  
 > ::ffff:204.9.48.81.6789: S 2991418190:2991418190(0) win 16384 <mss[| 
tcp]>

would convert 2002:451f:6311::451f:6311 back to 69.31.99.17, and send  
that to 204.9.48.81.

This is going to fail because of RPF or other anti-spoofing methods.  
This also doesn't work because the client is considering this a v6  
connection, and is expecting replies back to 2002:451f:6311::451f:6311.

2) The relay passes the packet through to the gateway as though it  
were any other v6 packet.

draft-itojun-v6ops-v4mapped-harmful-00.txt seems to say that this is a  
bad idea. I realize it's was only a draft, but the BSD's were  
convinced by its arguments, won't accept or transmit v4 mapped  
addresses on the wire.

Just to confirm I'm not crazy, I forced some onto the wire and our  
Juniper routers just dropped them as well.

FreeBSD right now has the following code/comment in it that refuses  
any v4 mapped addresses coming into it from the outside at all:

         /*
          * The following check is not documented in specs.  A malicious
          * party may be able to use IPv4 mapped addr to confuse tcp/ 
udp stack
          * and bypass security checks (act as if it was from  
127.0.0.1 by using
          * IPv6 src ::ffff:127.0.0.1).  Be cautious.
          *
          * This check chokes if we are in an SIIT cloud.  As none of  
BSDs
          * support IPv4-less kernel compilation, we cannot support SIIT
          * environment at all.  So, it makes more sense for us to  
reject any
          * malicious packets for non-SIIT environment, than try to do a
          * partial support for SIIT environment.
          */
         if (IN6_IS_ADDR_V4MAPPED(&ip6->ip6_src) ||
             IN6_IS_ADDR_V4MAPPED(&ip6->ip6_dst)) {
                 ip6stat.ip6s_badscope++;
                 in6_ifstat_inc(m->m_pkthdr.rcvif, ifs6_in_addrerr);
                 goto bad;
         }

The 6to4 relay code goes one step further and blocks both mapped AND  
compatible addresses:

         if (IN6_IS_ADDR_V4COMPAT(in6) || IN6_IS_ADDR_V4MAPPED(in6))
                 return -1;


So, to sum up:

A 6to4 relay can't convert the packet back to a v4 packet. The client  
is expecting a reply to come back to it on its v6 stack, and you'd be  
dictating that public 6to4 relays would have to be able to spoof  
traffic from the world.

A 6to4 relay can't just treat it like a normal v6 address, because  
relays (mine anyway) won't forward packets that are to v4 mapped  
addresses. Additionally, our router won't do anything with them either.


I understand SIIT and NAT-PT use them locally, but... I can't imagine  
a scenario where a SIIT box is going to be sending 6to4 encapsulated  
traffic to a 6to4 relay?

When you say "there's no reason that the path to the translator  
shouldn't start out as 6to4", do you mean v6 only boxes behind the  
translator? If so, they've got no reason to talk to a 6to4 relay at all.

I guess what I'm asking is, if you're saying that this really is  
desirable to do, what do you want a 6to4 relay to do with these packets?


-- Kevin





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Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:34:58 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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 <remi.despres@free.fr>, v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record
 weirdness)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>	<67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com>	<479CD34E.7010403@free.fr>	<A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com>	<479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <87hcgznd5y.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de>
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On 2008-01-28 10:58, Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Brian E. Carpenter:
> 
>>> So, I think it's XP not doing the right thing here... XP should be
>>> selecting its own v4 stack instead of trying to shove packets to
>>> ::ffff:0:0/96 down 6to4... correct?
>> It seems to be a matter of taste which is the default.
> 
> Uhm, I think for a public anycast gateway (that's what we're talking
> about, right?), there's no other option than using the v4 stack instead.
> So the sane default seems clear to me.

I don't know any reason why one couldn't reach a NAT-PT via
an anycast-addressed 6to4 relay. The point is that we ended
up overloading the usage of the mapped-IPv4 prefix - not only
the sin of encoding semantics in the address bits, but also the
sin of doing so ambiguously. So no default can be "correct".
Probably local mapping to the IPv4 stack is slightly saner.

    Brian




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Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 19:16:30 -0800
From: "Erik Kline" <ekline@ekline.com>
To: "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record weirdness)
Cc: "Florian Weimer" <fw@deneb.enyo.de>, "Kevin Day" <toasty@dragondata.com>, 
	"=?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?=" <remi.despres@free.fr>, 
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On 1/27/08, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2008-01-28 10:58, Florian Weimer wrote:
> > * Brian E. Carpenter:
> >
> >>> So, I think it's XP not doing the right thing here... XP should be
> >>> selecting its own v4 stack instead of trying to shove packets to
> >>> ::ffff:0:0/96 down 6to4... correct?
> >> It seems to be a matter of taste which is the default.
> >
> > Uhm, I think for a public anycast gateway (that's what we're talking
> > about, right?), there's no other option than using the v4 stack instead.
> > So the sane default seems clear to me.
>
> I don't know any reason why one couldn't reach a NAT-PT via
> an anycast-addressed 6to4 relay. The point is that we ended
> up overloading the usage of the mapped-IPv4 prefix - not only
> the sin of encoding semantics in the address bits, but also the
> sin of doing so ambiguously. So no default can be "correct".
> Probably local mapping to the IPv4 stack is slightly saner.
>
>     Brian
>
>

These are excellent points -- I hadn't thought about the case of an
IPv6-only client behind a dual-stack 6to4 host trying to reach
(through) a translator.  That seems perfectly legitimate to me.  I
would have to agree, though, that if the packet originates on a
dual-stack host then it should probably have defaulted to using its
own IPv4 stack.

Thanks for the clarification,
-Erik




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Message-ID: <479D51EB.5050707@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 16:54:19 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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 v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record
 weirdness)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com> <67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com> <479CD34E.7010403@free.fr> <A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com> <479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <88AA9D9F-603D-428A-8C05-1A41D56DFE80@dragondata.com>
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I think there are two other options for the relay.

3) Forward the packet to your local friendly NAT-PT box.
This is really a version of #2 - in fact it's the only
case I can think of where #2 would be useful. Of course,
most people don't have a local friendly NAT-PT.

4) Drop it. That would be my preference as a default.

    Brian

On 2008-01-28 11:10, Kevin Day wrote:
> 
> On Jan 27, 2008, at 3:16 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> 
>> On 2008-01-28 09:21, Kevin Day wrote:
>> ...
>>> FreeBSD doesn't seem to ever try to send ::ffff:0:0/96 over a 6to4
>>> connection, which I believe is the correct thing to do. The original
>>> client shouldn't have used its v6 stack at all when accessing a v4
>>> mapped address
>>
>> That isn't necessarily so. If the client is attempting to reach
>> a SIIT translator, such as a NAT-PT, the mapped address should
>> be used, and should be routed to the translator. In that case,
>> there's no reason that the path to the translator shouldn't start
>> out as 6to4. IMHO this needs to be a configurable behaviour.
>> It's unfortunate, to say the least, that mapped addresses have
>> these two different uses.
> 
> While I understand translation is a slightly different case, as a 6to4
> relay operator I'm still not sure what the relay is supposed to do with
> a mapped destination address.
> 
> The only options I see are:
> 
> 1) The relay converts it back to a v4 packet and sends it off using the
> client's v4 address.
> 
> In my tcpdump example:
> 
> IP 69.31.99.17 > 192.88.99.1: IP6 2002:451f:6311::451f:6311.1026 >
> ::ffff:204.9.48.81.6789: S 2991418190:2991418190(0) win 16384 <mss[|tcp]>
> 
> would convert 2002:451f:6311::451f:6311 back to 69.31.99.17, and send
> that to 204.9.48.81.
> 
> This is going to fail because of RPF or other anti-spoofing methods.
> This also doesn't work because the client is considering this a v6
> connection, and is expecting replies back to 2002:451f:6311::451f:6311.
> 
> 2) The relay passes the packet through to the gateway as though it were
> any other v6 packet.
> 
> draft-itojun-v6ops-v4mapped-harmful-00.txt seems to say that this is a
> bad idea. I realize it's was only a draft, but the BSD's were convinced
> by its arguments, won't accept or transmit v4 mapped addresses on the wire.
> 
> Just to confirm I'm not crazy, I forced some onto the wire and our
> Juniper routers just dropped them as well.
> 
> FreeBSD right now has the following code/comment in it that refuses any
> v4 mapped addresses coming into it from the outside at all:
> 
>         /*
>          * The following check is not documented in specs.  A malicious
>          * party may be able to use IPv4 mapped addr to confuse tcp/udp
> stack
>          * and bypass security checks (act as if it was from 127.0.0.1
> by using
>          * IPv6 src ::ffff:127.0.0.1).  Be cautious.
>          *
>          * This check chokes if we are in an SIIT cloud.  As none of BSDs
>          * support IPv4-less kernel compilation, we cannot support SIIT
>          * environment at all.  So, it makes more sense for us to reject
> any
>          * malicious packets for non-SIIT environment, than try to do a
>          * partial support for SIIT environment.
>          */
>         if (IN6_IS_ADDR_V4MAPPED(&ip6->ip6_src) ||
>             IN6_IS_ADDR_V4MAPPED(&ip6->ip6_dst)) {
>                 ip6stat.ip6s_badscope++;
>                 in6_ifstat_inc(m->m_pkthdr.rcvif, ifs6_in_addrerr);
>                 goto bad;
>         }
> 
> The 6to4 relay code goes one step further and blocks both mapped AND
> compatible addresses:
> 
>         if (IN6_IS_ADDR_V4COMPAT(in6) || IN6_IS_ADDR_V4MAPPED(in6))
>                 return -1;
> 
> 
> So, to sum up:
> 
> A 6to4 relay can't convert the packet back to a v4 packet. The client is
> expecting a reply to come back to it on its v6 stack, and you'd be
> dictating that public 6to4 relays would have to be able to spoof traffic
> from the world.
> 
> A 6to4 relay can't just treat it like a normal v6 address, because
> relays (mine anyway) won't forward packets that are to v4 mapped
> addresses. Additionally, our router won't do anything with them either.
> 
> 
> I understand SIIT and NAT-PT use them locally, but... I can't imagine a
> scenario where a SIIT box is going to be sending 6to4 encapsulated
> traffic to a 6to4 relay?
> 
> When you say "there's no reason that the path to the translator
> shouldn't start out as 6to4", do you mean v6 only boxes behind the
> translator? If so, they've got no reason to talk to a 6to4 relay at all.
> 
> I guess what I'm asking is, if you're saying that this really is
> desirable to do, what do you want a 6to4 relay to do with these packets?
> 
> 
> -- Kevin
> 
> 




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Jan 27 23:51:27 2008
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On Jan 27, 2008, at 9:54 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> I think there are two other options for the relay.
>
> 3) Forward the packet to your local friendly NAT-PT box.
> This is really a version of #2 - in fact it's the only
> case I can think of where #2 would be useful. Of course,
> most people don't have a local friendly NAT-PT.
>

That might be a little tough for those of us running public anycast  
relays to pull off, but perhaps locally sure. :)

I will say that this seems to be impossible for someone running a  
relay on any of the BSDs(Free/Net/Open/Dragonfly), or OS X.  They will  
not accept or route any mapped(::FFFF:0:0/96) addresses at any time,  
so it's not possible without removing some code from in_input.c to  
even forward packets to a NAT-PT box.

However, I think this is a bit dangerous to allow by default for  
forwarding. It's not too hard to imagine cases where networks are  
using tunnels to gain v6 connectivity, and don't have their firewalls  
or other security set up to handle v4 packets being injected into  
their network from their tunnel box.


All this said, I'm seeing even more "unusual" traffic on our 6to4  
relay that's outside mapped addresses showing up... In the past few  
days of watching, I've seen 6to4 clients try sending to the 6to4 relay  
packets with destination addresses in:

Unicast:

Link Local (FE80::)
Site Local (FEC0::)
v4 compatibility (::/96)
v4 mapped (::FFFF:0:0/96)
All zeros (::)
Loopback (::1)
Obviously invalid addresses (BBBB:BBBB:BBBB:BBBB:BBBB:BBBB:BBBB:BBBB,  
etc)

Multicast:

Unknown multicast (FF00::)
Node Local (FF01::)
Link Local (FF02::)
Site Local (FF05::)


I've been trying to trace the source of as many of these as is  
possible, but with the pretty anonymous nature of 6to4 it's a little  
difficult. Before I expend too much energy on this:

1) Has anyone already done this digging before?

2) Is it of interest to anyone other than myself? :)

For right now, the default action of our relay is to drop all of  
these, but I'm mostly interested in what the clients are trying to  
accomplish with traffic like this, and what (if anything) is breaking  
as a result of it.

-- Kevin





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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Problem Statement of Default Address Selection in Multi-prefix Environment: Operational Issues of RFC3484 Default Rules
	Author(s)       : A. Matsumoto, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-03.txt
	Pages           : 15
	Date            : 2008-01-28

One physical network can carry multiple logical networks.  Moreover,
we can use multiple physical networks at the same time in a host.  In
that environment, end hosts might have multiple IP addresses and be
required to use them selectively.  Without an appropriate source/
destination address selection mechanism, the host will experience
some trouble in communication.  RFC 3484 defines both the source and
destination address selection algorithms, but the multi-prefix
environment considered here needs additional rules beyond those of
the default operation.  This document describes the possible problems
that end hosts could encounter in an environment with multiple
logical networks.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-03.txt

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Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
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Brian, I'm very perlexed by how you come to that conclusion. Maybe  
you can fill me in.

The text of rule 9 is:

    Rule 9:  Use longest matching prefix.
    When DA and DB belong to the same address family (both are IPv6 or
    both are IPv4): If CommonPrefixLen(DA, Source(DA)) >
    CommonPrefixLen(DB, Source(DB)), then prefer DA.  Similarly, if
    CommonPrefixLen(DA, Source(DA)) < CommonPrefixLen(DB, Source(DB)),
    then prefer DB.

In the Internet, regardless of whether the prefixes are PA or PI,  
there is little if any reason to believe that any two customers  
chosen at random have the same provider. I have appended four  
traceroutes for your (anecdotal) consideration in support of the  
point - I am served by Cox, but you use google mail (which apparently  
has multiple ISPs), Florian is reached through interscholz.net,  
ops.ietf.org is reached through NTT, and ietf.org is reached through  
AT&T. I would encourage you to spend an hour picking random domain  
names out of your mail spool and traceroute to them. If your view of  
the world is at all similar to mine, you will find your path going  
through your network, your provider, their provider, and their  
network, and potentially multiple networks in between the two providers.

If the two communicating networks have different upstream providers,  
what on God's Green Earth leads you to believe that they would have a  
common PA prefix? If they don't have a common prefix, exactly how  
does rule 9 help?




On Jan 27, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> On 2008-01-28 00:26, Florian Weimer wrote:
>> I've also noticed that the draft fails to mention that Rule 9, when
>> applied by most of the client population on the Internet, results in
>> worse performance than no destination address sorting at all.
>>
>> Rule 9 might offer a significant advantage in private deployments  
>> which
>> use non-IANA address allocation.  In other cases, routing is  
>> typically
>> not hierarchical at all, so that the length of the matching address
>> prefix is meaningless.
>
> Not true if the sites concerned are both using PA space and
> happen to have the same ISP. We still have hopes that PA space will
> be predominant in IPv6, despite the PI heresy.
>
> Can you describe cases in which this rule is actively harmful?
>
>    Brian



[Fred-Bakers-Computer-3:~] fred% traceroute mail.google.com
traceroute: Warning: mail.google.com has multiple addresses; using  
209.85.199.18
traceroute to googlemail.l.google.com (209.85.199.18), 64 hops max,  
40 byte packets
  1  10.32.244.217 (10.32.244.217)  1.570 ms  1.153 ms  1.104 ms
  2  wsip-98-173-193-1.sb.sd.cox.net (98.173.193.1)  87.274 ms   
49.568 ms  48.215 ms
  3  68.6.13.101 (68.6.13.101)  57.624 ms  47.359 ms  38.188 ms
  4  68.6.13.45 (68.6.13.45)  33.014 ms  32.715 ms  32.097 ms
  5  paltbbrj02-ae0.0.r2.pt.cox.net (68.1.0.235)  51.490 ms  52.489  
ms  41.434 ms
  6  209.85.130.2 (209.85.130.2)  125.613 ms  122.277 ms 209.85.130.6  
(209.85.130.6)  129.134 ms
  7  66.249.95.135 (66.249.95.135)  110.462 ms  124.537 ms  116.237 ms
  8  209.85.250.144 (209.85.250.144)  128.569 ms  130.422 ms  134.411 ms
  9  64.233.174.131 (64.233.174.131)  145.547 ms 64.233.174.129  
(64.233.174.129)  132.366 ms  118.576 ms
10  * 209.85.248.254 (209.85.248.254)  125.765 ms  138.378 ms
11  rv-in-f18.google.com (209.85.199.18)  118.186 ms  109.112 ms *
[Fred-Bakers-Computer-3:~] fred% traceroute
[Fred-Bakers-Computer-3:~] fred% nslookup 209.85.130.2
Server:         68.105.28.13
Address:        68.105.28.13#53

Non-authoritative answer:
*** Can't find 2.130.85.209.in-addr.arpa.: No answer

Authoritative answers can be found from:

[Fred-Bakers-Computer-3:~] fred% traceroute deneb.enyo.de
traceroute to deneb.enyo.de (212.9.189.171), 64 hops max, 40 byte  
packets
  1  10.32.244.217 (10.32.244.217)  1.528 ms  1.131 ms  1.126 ms
  2  wsip-98-173-193-1.sb.sd.cox.net (98.173.193.1)  12.350 ms   
10.628 ms  10.509 ms
  3  68.6.13.101 (68.6.13.101)  14.043 ms  13.115 ms  12.642 ms
  4  68.6.13.45 (68.6.13.45)  18.518 ms  17.599 ms  16.974 ms
  5  paltbbrj02-ae0.0.r2.pt.cox.net (68.1.0.235)  33.845 ms  31.246  
ms  31.796 ms
  6  so-1-2-2.mpr2.sjc2.us.above.net (64.125.29.126)  31.804 ms   
32.963 ms  29.991 ms
  7  so-1-0-0.mpr1.lga5.us.above.net (64.125.26.142)  106.799 ms   
104.833 ms  106.786 ms
  8  so-0-0-0.mpr1.lga5.us.above.net (64.125.27.237)  107.908 ms   
109.646 ms  107.201 ms
  9  so-1-0-0.mpr1.ams1.nl.above.net (64.125.27.186)  192.188 ms   
190.569 ms  192.356 ms
10  pos-9-1.mpr2.fra1.de.above.net (64.125.23.253)  206.446 ms   
201.130 ms  201.177 ms
11  ge-9-7.er2b.fra1.de.above.net (64.125.23.210)  200.881 ms  
ge-9-4.er2b.fra1.de.above.net (64.125.23.206)  199.369 ms  
ge-9-7.er2b.fra1.de.above.net (64.125.23.210)  202.015 ms
12  c12gsr-5-02.intx.fra.interscholz.net (62.93.193.62)  201.813 ms   
208.735 ms  198.146 ms
13  c12gsr-3-02.z10a.stg.interscholz.net (85.236.200.229)  205.121  
ms  207.205 ms  204.092 ms
14  ge-knd-lfnet.z10.stg.interscholz.net (85.236.201.130)  204.035  
ms  201.747 ms  209.954 ms
15  dsl-gw.ispeg.de (212.9.161.26)  202.581 ms  201.286 ms  200.045 ms
16  dsl.enyo.de (213.178.172.64)  227.865 ms  237.674 ms  228.145 ms
17  * *^C
[Fred-Bakers-Computer-3:~] fred% traceroute ops.ietf.org
traceroute to ops.ietf.org (147.28.0.62), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
  1  10.32.244.217 (10.32.244.217)  1.320 ms  1.063 ms  1.030 ms
  2  wsip-98-173-193-1.sb.sd.cox.net (98.173.193.1)  15.270 ms   
14.536 ms  12.443 ms
  3  68.6.13.117 (68.6.13.117)  17.136 ms  13.310 ms  13.317 ms
  4  68.6.13.49 (68.6.13.49)  17.679 ms  22.767 ms  19.230 ms
  5  paltbbrj01-so000.0.r2.pt.cox.net (68.1.0.199)  43.538 ms  41.442  
ms  43.887 ms
  6  ae-1.r20.snjsca04.us.bb.gin.ntt.net (129.250.5.33)  48.245 ms   
42.201 ms  47.455 ms
  7  p64-0-0-0.r20.sttlwa01.us.bb.gin.ntt.net (129.250.4.22)  72.543  
ms  66.362 ms  81.955 ms
  8  p16-0-0-0.r05.sttlwa01.us.bb.gin.ntt.net (129.250.3.11)  66.021  
ms  72.685 ms  65.238 ms
  9  p1-0.psg.sttlwa01.us.bb.gin.ntt.net (129.250.11.42)  69.071 ms   
64.404 ms  64.297 ms
10  * *^C
[Fred-Bakers-Computer-3:~] fred% traceroute ietf.org
traceroute: Warning: ietf.org has multiple addresses; using  
209.173.53.180
traceroute to ietf.org (209.173.53.180), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
  1  10.32.244.217 (10.32.244.217)  1.581 ms  1.118 ms  1.095 ms
  2  wsip-98-173-193-1.sb.sd.cox.net (98.173.193.1)  18.068 ms   
12.854 ms  14.602 ms
  3  68.6.13.101 (68.6.13.101)  12.794 ms  11.780 ms  14.710 ms
  4  68.6.13.45 (68.6.13.45)  20.709 ms  28.882 ms  27.386 ms
  5  fed1dsrj02-so010.0.rd.sd.cox.net (68.6.8.13)  18.876 ms  17.096  
ms  22.599 ms
  6  tbr1.la2ca.ip.att.net (12.122.104.38)  79.486 ms  79.698 ms   
79.613 ms
  7  tbr2.la2ca.ip.att.net (12.122.9.146)  80.148 ms  80.635 ms   
84.841 ms
  8  tbr2.sl9mo.ip.att.net (12.122.10.13)  82.377 ms  82.078 ms   
96.295 ms
  9  tbr1.sl9mo.ip.att.net (12.122.9.141)  91.041 ms  81.589 ms   
78.615 ms
10  tbr1.wswdc.ip.att.net (12.122.10.29)  80.846 ms  76.828 ms   
78.812 ms
11  12.123.8.193 (12.123.8.193)  91.766 ms  77.840 ms  77.159 ms
12  12.118.28.10 (12.118.28.10)  79.630 ms  82.614 ms  79.309 ms


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 03:45:02 2008
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From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record weirdness)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:43:16 +0100
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com> <67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com> <479CD34E.7010403@free.fr> <A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com> <479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <88AA9D9F-603D-428A-8C05-1A41D56DFE80@dragondata.com> <479D51EB.5050707@gmail.com>
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On 28 jan 2008, at 4:54, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> I think there are two other options for the relay.

> 3) Forward the packet to your local friendly NAT-PT box.
> This is really a version of #2 - in fact it's the only
> case I can think of where #2 would be useful. Of course,
> most people don't have a local friendly NAT-PT.

Also, the use cases for NAT-PT and 6to4 are highly orthogonal: one  
supports reaching IPv4 for hosts with only IPv6 connectivity, the  
other supports reaching IPv6 for hosts with only IPv6 connectivity. So  
I guess NAT-PT and 6to4 together would be useful for hosts without  
_any_ connectivity?

A point about Windows XP: the IPv4 and IPv6 stacks are separate. So XP  
can't generate IPv4 packets when applications use the IPv6 socket  
calls. This is of course highly suboptimal but this means that "simply  
generate IPv4 packets for ::ffff:x.x.x.x AAAA records" is not a  
natural choice.

I would suggest that implementations ignore AAAA records with IPv4- 
mapped addresses. There are probably some other address ranges that  
shouldn't show up in the DNS too (multicast?).




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 04:22:43 2008
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 v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record
 weirdness)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com> <67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com> <479CD34E.7010403@free.fr> <A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com> <479CF498.4090702@gmail.com>
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1. The RFC on Basic Socket Interface Extensions for IPv6 (RFC 2553)
states in its section 3.7:
<< Applications may use PF_INET6 sockets to open TCP connections to IPv4
    nodes, or send UDP packets to IPv4 nodes, by simply encoding the
    destination's IPv4 address as an IPv4-mapped IPv6 address, and
    passing that address, within a sockaddr_in6 structure, in the
    connect() or sendto() call. >>

IMHO all clients have just to comply, and use their IPv4 stacks when
destinations are mapped addresses.
If XP had done it, no problem would have been identified by Kevin, and
6to4 would not have been in the loop.

2. My previous answer to Kevin and Erik was received by them, but not by
v6ops (apologies for that).
It also contained this comment, which I see as relevant:

>  I am very pleased that Kevin came up with this "fascinating" example
> which revives the "mapped AAAA" issue.
>  As a matter of fact, mapped addresses as IPv6 destinations are IMHO
> very useful for the future, as shows an earlier contribution on the 
subject:
> http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2007/msg01031.html
>
>  A particular application of mapped AAAA records is for IPv4-only Web
> servers to be reachable by  IPv6-only clients
>   - these servers have mapped AAAA in their DNS servers in addition to
> their As (feasible manually)
>   - these clients are in sites where CPEs support NAT v6-v4  (a fairly
> simple software evolution of a v4-v4).

RĂ©mi


Brian E Carpenter wrote :
> On 2008-01-28 09:21, Kevin Day wrote:

> That isn't necessarily so. If the client is attempting to reach
> a SIIT translator, such as a NAT-PT, the mapped address should
> be used, and should be routed to the translator. 
IMHO there is one case where a mapped destination address could reach a
SIIT.
That is if the source host is IPv6-only (not being dual stack, it is not
cocerned with the obligation of RFC-2553 sec. 3,7).
I believe we agree that this a useful case (as I believe we agree that
IPv6 to IPv4 NAT is very useful for graceful transition from IPv4 to IPv6)

>> So, I think it's XP not doing the right thing here... XP should be
>> selecting its own v4 stack instead of trying to shove packets to
>> ::ffff:0:0/96 down 6to4... correct?
> 
> It seems to be a matter of taste which is the default.

NO, fortunately it isn't a matter of taste (see 1. above) :-).







From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 04:27:28 2008
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Florian,
thank you for pointing out an interesting issue.

This problem can be thought to be conflict of local (client-side) optimization
and remote (server-side) optimization. Dst-rule 9 tries to implement local 
optimization of subsequent communication and breaks DNS round-robin technique
which is optimization of the remote side traffic.

In my solution draft, which was approved as 6man wg item at Vancouver, some
proposed mechanisms for achieving/compensating local optimization are described
and analyzed, such as address policy distrbituion mechanism.

My suggestion for solving this problem is to change default address selection
algorithm to support remote optimization, namely invalidate dst-rule 9, and to
adopt other mechanism for local optimization if necessary.

As everyone mentioned, poor way of local optimization does harm for remote side
and sometimes for local side. Any kind of local optimization should be implemented
carefully by an administrator that figures out what size of address block his
site has, which address block the upstream network has, and what kind of address
selection policy doesn't conflict with DNS round-robin like remote optimization.

Moreover, local optimization is easier to be deployed than remote optimization is.
To implement remote optimization, almost all the nodes that connect to his server
have to support the mechanism for remote optimization. Changing the widely-used
standard document itself seems for me to be the best and possible way to go,
rather than standardizing an additional mechanism for remote optimization and 
convincing every user-OS vendor to implement it.

Best regards,

Florian Weimer wrote:
> I've also noticed that the draft fails to mention that Rule 9, when
> applied by most of the client population on the Internet, results in
> worse performance than no destination address sorting at all.
> 
> Rule 9 might offer a significant advantage in private deployments which
> use non-IANA address allocation.  In other cases, routing is typically
> not hierarchical at all, so that the length of the matching address
> prefix is meaningless.
> 

-- 
Arifumi Matsumoto
    IP Technology Expert Team
    Secure Communication Project
    NTT Information Sharing Platform Laboratories
    E-mail: arifumi@nttv6.net







From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 04:46:32 2008
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Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02
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* Arifumi Matsumoto:

> This problem can be thought to be conflict of local (client-side)
> optimization and remote (server-side) optimization. Dst-rule 9 tries
> to implement local optimization of subsequent communication and breaks
> DNS round-robin technique which is optimization of the remote side
> traffic.
>
> In my solution draft, which was approved as 6man wg item at Vancouver,
> some proposed mechanisms for achieving/compensating local optimization
> are described and analyzed, such as address policy distrbituion
> mechanism.

Does this mean that the 6man WG is responsible for RFC 3484bis?  I had
missed this.  And why is v6ops dealing with
draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02?  Wouldn't this fit 6man better, too?

> My suggestion for solving this problem is to change default address selection
> algorithm to support remote optimization, namely invalidate dst-rule 9, and to
> adopt other mechanism for local optimization if necessary.

I'm in favor of disabling Rule 9 for IPv4.  If IPv6 is finally deployed,
I guess the prefix distribution will resemble that of IPv4, so Rule 9
isn't that helpful over there, either.  But this is mere speculation.

> As everyone mentioned, poor way of local optimization does harm for
> remote side and sometimes for local side. Any kind of local
> optimization should be implemented carefully by an administrator that
> figures out what size of address block his site has, which address
> block the upstream network has, and what kind of address selection
> policy doesn't conflict with DNS round-robin like remote optimization.

To some extent, it's also possible to put that optimization into the
caching resolver (which might get better topology data via BGP, for
instance).  If the client reorders addresses, this doesn't work anymore.




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Cc: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>,  Kevin Day
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Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record weirdness)
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* Iljitsch van Beijnum:

> A point about Windows XP: the IPv4 and IPv6 stacks are separate. So XP
> can't generate IPv4 packets when applications use the IPv6 socket
> calls. This is of course highly suboptimal but this means that "simply
> generate IPv4 packets for ::ffff:x.x.x.x AAAA records" is not a
> natural choice.

They could add a route to a local process that implements a NAT-PT
gateway, I guess.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 04:56:02 2008
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* Kevin Day:

> I will say that this seems to be impossible for someone running a
> relay on any of the BSDs(Free/Net/Open/Dragonfly), or OS X.  They will
> not accept or route any mapped(::FFFF:0:0/96) addresses at any time,
> so it's not possible without removing some code from in_input.c to
> even forward packets to a NAT-PT box.

And thanks to BCP38 filters, you actually need to run some kind of NAT,
which means that the gateway is no longer stateless.  Maybe this
wouldn't be a problem, but I fear that it doesn't really help to improve
reliability of that service.




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Florian Weimer a écrit :
> * Rémi Després:
> 
>> 1. The RFC on Basic Socket Interface Extensions for IPv6 (RFC 2553)
>> states in its section 3.7:
>> << Applications may use PF_INET6 sockets to open TCP connections to IPv4
>>    nodes, or send UDP packets to IPv4 nodes, by simply encoding the
>>    destination's IPv4 address as an IPv4-mapped IPv6 address, and
>>    passing that address, within a sockaddr_in6 structure, in the
>>    connect() or sendto() call. >>
> 
> How important is this feature in practice?  Could we deprecate it?
> 
> 
IMO deprecating it would be a bad step backward!

Rémi




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 05:51:59 2008
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Florian,

Florian Weimer wrote:
> * Arifumi Matsumoto:
> 
>> This problem can be thought to be conflict of local (client-side)
>> optimization and remote (server-side) optimization. Dst-rule 9 tries
>> to implement local optimization of subsequent communication and breaks
>> DNS round-robin technique which is optimization of the remote side
>> traffic.
>>
>> In my solution draft, which was approved as 6man wg item at Vancouver,
>> some proposed mechanisms for achieving/compensating local optimization
>> are described and analyzed, such as address policy distrbituion
>> mechanism.
> 
> Does this mean that the 6man WG is responsible for RFC 3484bis?  I had
> missed this.  And why is v6ops dealing with
> draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02?  Wouldn't this fit 6man better, too?

Not exactly for RFC 3484bis, but for solving problems related to address
selection described in draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02.

About 2nd question,
we started this work at v6ops because v6ops are motivated for this.
Solution draft moved to 6man mainly because it involves some kind of
protocol work and we cannot do that at operation area.

>> My suggestion for solving this problem is to change default address selection
>> algorithm to support remote optimization, namely invalidate dst-rule 9, and to
>> adopt other mechanism for local optimization if necessary.
> 
> I'm in favor of disabling Rule 9 for IPv4.  If IPv6 is finally deployed,
> I guess the prefix distribution will resemble that of IPv4, so Rule 9
> isn't that helpful over there, either.  But this is mere speculation.

Now that we have IPv6 PI, I agree that we should expect such a situation.
I'm afraid that leaving another difference between IPv4 and IPv6 spec is
gonna be another obstacle to IPv6 transition. So, disabling Rule 9 only
for IPv4 seems to me not a good idea, as far as IPv6 world doesn't
drastically change from IPv4.

>> As everyone mentioned, poor way of local optimization does harm for
>> remote side and sometimes for local side. Any kind of local
>> optimization should be implemented carefully by an administrator that
>> figures out what size of address block his site has, which address
>> block the upstream network has, and what kind of address selection
>> policy doesn't conflict with DNS round-robin like remote optimization.
> 
> To some extent, it's also possible to put that optimization into the
> caching resolver (which might get better topology data via BGP, for
> instance).  If the client reorders addresses, this doesn't work anymore.

If the rule 9 is disabled, that might be another mechanism for local
optimization. However, destination address sorting without knowledge
of source addresses that a querying host has is not helpful in some
cases.

Best regards,

-- 
Arifumi Matsumoto
    IP Technology Expert Team
    Secure Communication Project
    NTT Information Sharing Platform Laboratories
    E-mail: arifumi@nttv6.net







From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 06:44:19 2008
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On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 11:17:47AM +0100, R?mi Despr?s wrote:
> >>1. The RFC on Basic Socket Interface Extensions for IPv6 (RFC 2553)
> >>states in its section 3.7:
> >><< Applications may use PF_INET6 sockets to open TCP connections to IPv4
> >>   nodes, or send UDP packets to IPv4 nodes, by simply encoding the
> >>   destination's IPv4 address as an IPv4-mapped IPv6 address, and
> >>   passing that address, within a sockaddr_in6 structure, in the
> >>   connect() or sendto() call. >>

> >How important is this feature in practice?  Could we deprecate it?

> IMO deprecating it would be a bad step backward!

Yes - there is a (reasonable) school of thought that says that
draft-itojun-v6ops-v4mapped-harmful missed the mark, and that it
is actally better to write server applications to use a single
socket to accept both IPv4 and IPv6 clients. You then always use
mapped addresses to represent IPv4 addresses in ACLs/firewalls/...
Deprecating this would make life harder for people who have chosen
this model of managing dual-stacked applications.

	David.




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Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record weirdness)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 13:53:41 +0100
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On 28 jan 2008, at 11:17, R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:

>>> << Applications may use PF_INET6 sockets to open TCP connections =20
>>> to IPv4
>>>   nodes, or send UDP packets to IPv4 nodes, by simply encoding the
>>>   destination's IPv4 address as an IPv4-mapped IPv6 address, and
>>>   passing that address, within a sockaddr_in6 structure, in the
>>>   connect() or sendto() call. >>
>> How important is this feature in practice?  Could we deprecate it?
> IMO deprecating it would be a bad step backward!


Indeed.

I can't say that I spend a lot of time writing applications, but I =20
consider having a single interface to talk IPv4 and IPv6 extremely =20
important. Without that, it's very easy to have bugs that only come up =20=

in one IP version and it is of course extra work to have two sets of =20
socket calls. Worse, it's not possible to create IP version agnostic =20
applications.=




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Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
[..]
> I can't say that I spend a lot of time writing applications, but I=20
> consider having a single interface to talk IPv4 and IPv6 extremely=20
> important.

Exactly because you don't write enough applications ;)

There is a single interface: BSD sockets.

getaddrinfo(), getnameinfo(), socket(), connect()/listen()/bind(),=20
recv() & write().

Works for both IPv4 and IPv6, people just have to get used to using the=20
select() function for using multiple sockets at the same time.

yes, that makes server-side programs (the ones that listen) a bit more=20
difficult to write. Client programs stay the same, loop, try to connect=20
and presto.

If you really want to solve the "I don't get this" problem, or the "I=20
don't want to do this", use one of the many excellent libraries which=20
wrap all around this. Maybe there is something that the IETF should do:=20
publish a library which is in the public domain and AF and actually=20
socket agnostic?

> Without that, it's very easy to have bugs that only come up=20
> in one IP version and it is of course extra work to have two sets of=20
> socket calls.

It indeed is very easy to have bugs when you are mixing IPv4 and IPv6.
eg a 'firewall' which only checks the first 32bits of the address. Or=20
what about the original subject, trying to send from IPv4 over IPv6 to=20
IPv4, auto-translating A records into AAAA. Not even going to the=20
RBL-code reversing only the first

Yes, IPv4-mapped/compat was a good idea, and using it correctly=20
internally in an application is probably a good move. But using it on=20
the wire or when presenting it to users is definitely not.

> Worse, it's not possible to create IP version agnostic=20
> applications.

(There is a word which starts with the letter B, which is the male=20
version of a cow and then ends in what it produces, not talking about=20
milk here)

Please read:
http://www.kame.net/newsletter/19980604/
http://gsyc.escet.urjc.es/~eva/IPv6-web/ipv6.html

Note that the first document is nearly TEN (that is 10) years old=20
already. The second one by Eva definitely should be able to let any=20
programmer understand how easy it is to write a perfectly fine socket=20
program.

Greets,
  Jeroen



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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 09:41:31 2008
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From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
To: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@unfix.org>
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Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 15:38:45 +0100
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>	<67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com>	<479CD34E.7010403@free.fr>	<A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com>	<479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <479D9E65.5090808@free.fr> <87ir1ee03n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <479DABCB.7030705@free.fr> <5F00FC98-D878-4305-838C-3D9A8B5D7E5A@muada.com> <479DDD8C.3010707@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com>
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On 28 jan 2008, at 14:50, Jeroen Massar wrote:

Jeroen, I'm not quoting your message, because it doesn't make any  
sense to me.

What I was saying is that it's important to be able to do this, which  
I've lifted from the getnameinfo() and getaddrinfo() socket call  
manpages on my Mac with some minimal changes. This tries to set up a  
TCP session towards port 80 on www.kame.net, cycles through all  
available addresses and prints those when trying. The same code will  
do the same thing over IPv4 or IPv6, depending on A/AAAA records and  
local connectivity. Using this type of code of course does NOT mean  
that IPv6 packets with ::ffff:x.x.x.x addresses are either sent or  
received, those can/should be filtered.

For those not skilled in the art of C programming: note how cumbersome  
it is to do even simple stuff.

#include <stdio.h>
#include <sys/socket.h>
#include <netdb.h>
#include <string.h>

main()
{
  struct addrinfo hints, *res, *res0;
  int error;
  int s;
  const char *cause = NULL;
            char hbuf[NI_MAXHOST], sbuf[NI_MAXSERV];

  memset(&hints, 0, sizeof(hints));
  hints.ai_family = PF_UNSPEC;
  hints.ai_socktype = SOCK_STREAM;
  error = getaddrinfo("www.kame.net", "http", &hints, &res0);
  if (error) {
          errx(1, "%s", gai_strerror(error));
          /*NOTREACHED*/
  }
  s = -1;
  for (res = res0; res; res = res->ai_next) {
          s = socket(res->ai_family, res->ai_socktype,
              res->ai_protocol);
          if (s < 0) {
                  cause = "socket";
                  continue;
          }

            if (getnameinfo(res->ai_addr, res->ai_addrlen, hbuf,  
sizeof(hbuf), sbuf,
                sizeof(sbuf), NI_NUMERICHOST | NI_NUMERICSERV)) {
                    errx(1, "could not get numeric hostname");
                    /*NOTREACHED*/
            }
            printf("host=%s, serv=%s\n", hbuf, sbuf);

          if (connect(s, res->ai_addr, res->ai_addrlen) < 0) {
                  cause = "connect";
                  close(s);
                  s = -1;
                  continue;
          }

          break;  /* okay we got one */
  }
  if (s < 0) {
          err(1, "%s", cause);
          /*NOTREACHED*/
  }
  freeaddrinfo(res0);
}




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 09:48:16 2008
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Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>	<67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com>	<479CD34E.7010403@free.fr>	<A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com>	<479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <479D9E65.5090808@free.fr> <87ir1ee03n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <479DABCB.7030705@free.fr> <5F00FC98-D878-4305-838C-3D9A8B5D7E5A@muada.com> <479DDD8C.3010707@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <8DB0B0CF-DB58-4635-877E-F85C9E711710@muada.com>
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Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
> On 28 jan 2008, at 14:50, Jeroen Massar wrote:
>=20
> Jeroen, I'm not quoting your message, because it doesn't make any sense=
=20
> to me.

Then read it again and quote what is not understood.

> What I was saying is that it's important to be able to do this, which=20
> I've lifted from the getnameinfo() and getaddrinfo() socket call=20
> manpages on my Mac with some minimal changes.

Which is in my message:

8<-----------------------------------------------------------------------=

Please read:
http://www.kame.net/newsletter/19980604/
http://gsyc.escet.urjc.es/~eva/IPv6-web/ipv6.html

Note that the first document is nearly TEN (that is 10) years old=20
already. The second one by Eva definitely should be able to let any=20
programmer understand how easy it is to write a perfectly fine socket=20
program.
----------------------------------------------------------------------->8=


As I mentioned also, *clients*, thus code that uses connect(), are=20
really easy to code. Servers though, thus code that uses listen(), are=20
not so, as one will need to use multiple sockets.

Greets,
  Jeroen


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To: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@unfix.org>
CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>, v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>	<67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com>	<479CD34E.7010403@free.fr>	<A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com>	<479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <479D9E65.5090808@free.fr> <87ir1ee03n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <479DABCB.7030705@free.fr> <5F00FC98-D878-4305-838C-3D9A8B5D7E5A@muada.com> <479DDD8C.3010707@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com>
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Jeroen Massar wrote :
  > Yes, IPv4-mapped/compat was a good idea, and using it correctly
> internally in an application is probably a good move.
Yes. IMHO a nice and clean design.
> But using it on 
> the wire or when presenting it to users is definitely not.
Why ???

Consider in particular a dual stack site with a private IPv4 space.
Its CPE, which has a NATv4-v4, may also have a NATv6-v4.
If it has one, and if it uses it for outgoing packets that have 0::/64 
destinations, IPv6-only hosts on the LAN can establish connections with 
  IPv6 *AND* IPv4 remote hosts.
IMHO this is nice and clean.

On the other hand, reasons for such a definite statement as "never a 
mapped address on any wire" have to be presented.

The reference I know on the subject is
file:///Users/Pro/Documents/_%20TECHNIQUE%20/IPv6-IPv4/MSG%20Itojun%20Hagino%20-%20Mapped%20addresses%20Considered%20Harmful00301.html
Is there a more recent one which would not be obsoleted ?

Objections of this one as far as I know don't apply to the above example.

Rémi





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Subject: FW: New Version Notification for draft-vandevelde-v6ops-ra-guard-01 
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From: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" <gvandeve@cisco.com>
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Hi All,

Based upon feedback during IETF70 the RA-guard draft has been updated.=20
The RA-Guard solution is now much more based around complementing SeND
and can even use SeND attributes to identify valid RA's in mixed SeND
and traditional ND environments.

The revised abstract now reads:

<>
When using IPv6 within a single L2 network segment it is neccesary to
ensure that all routers advertising their services within it are valid.
In cases where it is not convinient or possible to use SeND [1] a rogue
Router Advertisement (RA) [2] could be sent by accident due to
misconfiguraton or ill intended.  Simple solutions for protecting
against rogue RAs are beneficial in complementing SeND in securing the
L2 domain for ceratin types of devices or in certain transitional
situations.

This document proposes a solution to reduce the threat of rogue RAs by
enabling layer 2 devices to forward only RAs received over designated
ports.
<>

If you would have feedback, then the editor team would be happy to
learn.

G/


-----Original Message-----
From: IETF I-D Submission Tool [mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org]=20
Sent: Monday, January 28, 2008 4:50 PM
To: gunter (mailer list)
Cc: Chip Popoviciu (cpopovic); Eric Levy- Abegnoli (elevyabe);
mohacsi@niif.hu
Subject: New Version Notification for draft-vandevelde-v6ops-ra-guard-01



A new version of I-D, draft-vandevelde-v6ops-ra-guard-01.txt has been
successfuly submitted by Gunter Van de Velde and posted to the IETF
repository.

Filename:	 draft-vandevelde-v6ops-ra-guard
Revision:	 01
Title:		 IPv6 RA-Guard
Creation_date:	 2008-01-28
WG ID:		 Independent Submission
Number_of_pages: 8

Abstract:
When using IPv6 within a single L2 network segment it is neccesary to
ensure that all routers advertising their services within it are valid.
In cases where it is not convinient or possible to use SeND [1] a rogue
Router Advertisement (RA) [2] could be sent by accident due to
misconfiguraton or ill intended.  Simple solutions for protecting
against rogue RAs are beneficial in complementing SeND in securing the
L2 domain for ceratin types of devices or in certain transitional
situations.

This document proposes a solution to reduce the threat of rogue RAs by
enabling layer 2 devices to forward only RAs received over designated
ports.
=20



The IETF Secretariat.






From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 11:16:35 2008
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From: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@unfix.org>
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CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>, v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>	<67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com>	<479CD34E.7010403@free.fr>	<A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com>	<479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <479D9E65.5090808@free.fr> <87ir1ee03n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <479DABCB.7030705@free.fr> <5F00FC98-D878-4305-838C-3D9A8B5D7E5A@muada.com> <479DDD8C.3010707@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <479DF86F.9060904@free.fr>
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R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:
> Jeroen Massar wrote :
>  > Yes, IPv4-mapped/compat was a good idea, and using it correctly
>> internally in an application is probably a good move.
> Yes. IMHO a nice and clean design.
>> But using it on the wire or when presenting it to users is definitely =

>> not.
> Why ???

Because ::x.x.x.x and ::ffff:x.x.x.x are IPv4, it is not IPv6.

> Consider in particular a dual stack site with a private IPv4 space.
> Its CPE, which has a NATv4-v4, may also have a NATv6-v4.
> If it has one, and if it uses it for outgoing packets that have 0::/64 =


::/96 you mean I guess ;)

> destinations, IPv6-only hosts on the LAN can establish connections with=
=20
>  IPv6 *AND* IPv4 remote hosts.

Why are you trying to translate IPv4 -> IPv6 to IPv4 and introduce state =

at the two translators, not even thinking of the mess it has to create=20
for NATting these packets? You can simply do IPv4 -> IPv4.

> IMHO this is nice and clean.

That is very dirty in my opinion.

> On the other hand, reasons for such a definite statement as "never a=20
> mapped address on any wire" have to be presented.

How do you write your firewall? The user has IPv4 enabled, they have a=20
working IPv4 firewall. IPv6 gets enabled, and suddenly the IPv4 firewall =

is completely moot as it can be bypassed by sending those packets as=20
IPv6 in the ::/96 range. Ouch.

> The reference I know on the subject is
> file:///Users/Pro/Documents/_%20TECHNIQUE%20/IPv6-IPv4/MSG%20Itojun%20H=
agino%20-%20Mapped%20addresses%20Considered%20Harmful00301.html=20

I am pretty sure I can't reach that location.

Greets,
  Jeroen


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Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 10:55:57 -0600
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On Jan 28, 2008, at 9:44 AM, R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:

> Jeroen Massar wrote :
>> But using it on the wire or when presenting it to users is =20
>> definitely not.
> Why ???
>

The problem with presenting v4 mapped/compatibility addresses on the =20
wire is that the behavior of such packets has been left undefined so =20
far.

* How these packets should be routed is completely undefined. Should =20
routers handle them as though they were normal v6 unicast addresses? =20
Or should they look at the v4 address and route them the same way as =20
though it were v4? What about "special" v4 addresses (127.0.0.1, =20
multicast, etc)? =46rom my very limited testing, it looks like Juniper =20=

routers drop them, even if you add specific routes within the /96s for =20=

them. Our very old Cisco sends back an ICMP unreachable,

* There seems to be no behavior for 6to4, Teredo or tunnel brokers to =20=

do that results in anything working when receiving packets destined to/=20=

sourced from these addresses.

* There are profound security implications of allowing v4 mapped/=20
compatibility addresses into your network. I'm not aware of any =20
firewall or security device that will handle v4 mapped/compatibility =20
addressed v6 packets, while still handling any of the behaviors =20
considered for v4. One example brought up on one of the FreeBSD =20
mailing lists long ago, before "net.inet6.ip6.v6only" got defaulted to =20=

"1" (essentially turning off v4 compatibility address use) was =20
something like:

# Add a firewall rule keeping everyone out of my telnet server. All =20
packets from anywhere to 1.2.3.4 to port 23 are dropped.
ipfw add drop tcp from any to 1.2.3.4 23

Now, even if this host has no v6 configured beyond an auto-configured =20=

link-local address, it was possible to "telnet ::FFFF:0102:0304" from =20=

somewhere else on the LAN and bypass the firewall. Since then changes =20=

were made to prevent this sort of thing in the simplest of cases (v4 =20
compatibility addresses off by default, not accepting them over the =20
wire at any time, etc).

While that's a really simplistic example, it shows that allowing these =20=

packets on the wire adds an attack vector that wouldn't be considered =20=

by most. Its giving attackers three different ways of expressing the =20
same address(v4 native, mapped, and compatibility) which doesn't take =20=

much imagination to see being exploited.

* There's no standard for how clients/servers should respond to these, =20=

leading to breakage already. If you send a Linux server a packet =20
to ::FFFF:0102:0304 it responds back using its v4 stack with 1.2.3.4. =20=

Windows uses its v6 stack, even when it probably doesn't make sense to =20=

(through 6to4/Teredo tunnels). Mac OS X and the BSDs drop all packets =20=

in ::FFFF:0:0/96 and ::/96 going in/out.


The only time I could ever see them being acceptable is on a link-=20
local scope, and only to/from your gateway for NAT-PT, and only in the =20=

case where you've got a v6-ONLY box that must talk to a v4 device. =20
Even then though, it feels wrong. :)






From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 12:25:30 2008
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Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
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Jeroen Massar wrote :
> Rémi Després wrote:
>> Why ???
> 
> Because ::x.x.x.x and ::ffff:x.x.x.x are IPv4, it is not IPv6.

IMO too general to be sufficient

>> Consider in particular a dual stack site with a private IPv4 space.
>> Its CPE, which has a NATv4-v4, may also have a NATv6-v4.
>> If it has one, and if it uses it for outgoing packets that have 0::/64 
> 
> ::/96 you mean I guess ;)
No.
Routing is in general performed on 64 bits (the remainder is IID, IMU 
not candiadate to be part of a prefix).
But no objection to /96 where it is supported.
> 
>> destinations, IPv6-only hosts on the LAN can establish connections 
>> with  IPv6 *AND* IPv4 remote hosts.
> 
> Why are you trying to translate IPv4 -> IPv6 to IPv4 and introduce state 
> at the two translators, not even thinking of the mess it has to create 
> for NATting these packets? You can simply do IPv4 -> IPv4.

I don't!
If you read carefully, you will see that IPv6 host reach IPv4 hosts via 
only one NAT (v6-v4).
>> IMHO this is nice and clean.
> 
> That is very dirty in my opinion.
Matter of taste then.
But at least this lets a real *IPv6-only* hostto reach an IPv4-only 
server, e.g. in HTTP.

>> On the other hand, reasons for such a definite statement as "never a 
>> mapped address on any wire" have to be presented.
> 
> How do you write your firewall? The user has IPv4 enabled, they have a 
> working IPv4 firewall. IPv6 gets enabled, and suddenly the IPv4 firewall 
> is completely moot as it can be bypassed by sending those packets as 
> IPv6 in the ::/96 range. Ouch.
> 
>> The reference I know on the subject is
>> file:///Users/Pro/Documents/_%20TECHNIQUE%20/IPv6-IPv4/MSG%20Itojun%20Hagino%20-%20Mapped%20addresses%20Considered%20Harmful00301.html 
> 
> 
> I am pretty sure I can't reach that location.
I copied this URL, pasted it in Mozilla thunderbird, and reached the 
(obsolete) document.
Either you were wrong in being "pretty sure" (once more ??) or your 
browser, or your OS, has a problem.

Regards

Rémi




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 12:41:33 2008
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From: Christian Huitema <huitema@windows.microsoft.com>
To: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>, =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?=
	<remi.despres@free.fr>
CC: v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 28 Jan 2008 09:39:52 -0800
Subject: RE: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
Thread-Topic: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
Thread-Index: Achhz/X8K0ww1y4wR46ivdK7pBRHCwAA4XYg
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References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>
	<67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com>
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> * There's no standard for how clients/servers should respond to these,
> leading to breakage already. If you send a Linux server a packet
> to ::FFFF:0102:0304 it responds back using its v4 stack with 1.2.3.4.
> Windows uses its v6 stack, even when it probably doesn't make sense to
> (through 6to4/Teredo tunnels). Mac OS X and the BSDs drop all packets
> in ::FFFF:0:0/96 and ::/96 going in/out.

What about KISS? The current specification of ::FFFF:0:0/96 is essentially =
that of a "magic value". According to some, whenever that magic value is en=
countered, something extraordinary shall happen, such as switching to a dif=
ferent network level protocol. This is a recipe for trouble, because it bre=
aks the "keep it simple" rule.

What we have for every other address prefix is simple. V6 packets are sent =
using V6, and the outgoing interfaces are chosen according to V6 routing ru=
les. In a host, the header of incoming V6 packet is checked, and unicast pa=
ckets are rejected if the particular destination address is not recognized =
as a valid address for the receiving interface. In a router, packets are ro=
uted according to routing tables, and if no route is configured packets are=
 dropped. Some routers may also perform ingress filtering. Anything more co=
mplex than is guaranteed to cause problems.

I think that Itojun was right, and we should simply deprecate the ::FFFF:0:=
0/96 prefix.

-- Christian Huitema






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CC: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>, v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>	<67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com>	<479CD34E.7010403@free.fr>	<A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com>	<479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <479D9E65.5090808@free.fr> <87ir1ee03n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <479DABCB.7030705@free.fr> <5F00FC98-D878-4305-838C-3D9A8B5D7E5A@muada.com> <479DDD8C.3010707@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <479DF86F.9060904@free.fr> <479DFF9F.8080208@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <479E0FAF.9080404@free.fr>
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R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:
> Jeroen Massar wrote :
>> R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:
>>> Why ???
>>
>> Because ::x.x.x.x and ::ffff:x.x.x.x are IPv4, it is not IPv6.
>=20
> IMO too general to be sufficient

It very generally is a very bad general idea ;)

It *WAS* a great idea in the beginning, to get IPv6 going and to get=20
some form of communication between IPv4 and IPv6, but if you have=20
written a couple of programs (not clients) and bumped into it a couple=20
of times you will realize that it is not a good idea.

I am fully with our samurai on this one.

>>> Consider in particular a dual stack site with a private IPv4 space.
>>> Its CPE, which has a NATv4-v4, may also have a NATv6-v4.
>>> If it has one, and if it uses it for outgoing packets that have 0::/6=
4=20
>>
>> ::/96 you mean I guess ;)
> No.
> Routing is in general performed on 64 bits (the remainder is IID, IMU=20
> not candiadate to be part of a prefix).
> But no objection to /96 where it is supported.

Please see RFC4291 section 2.5.5.1 and 2.5.5.2. These special prefixes=20
are longer and are excluded from that space, they are special after all.

[..]
>>> IMHO this is nice and clean.
>>
>> That is very dirty in my opinion.
> Matter of taste then.
> But at least this lets a real *IPv6-only* hostto reach an IPv4-only=20
> server, e.g. in HTTP.

Please use application proxies for this, and not routing tricks and by=20
introducing NAT into IPv6. NAT-PT was deprecated for a reason.

[..]
>>> The reference I know on the subject is
>>> file:///Users/Pro/Documents/_%20TECHNIQUE%20/IPv6-IPv4/MSG%20Itojun%2=
0Hagino%20-%20Mapped%20addresses%20Considered%20Harmful00301.html=20
>>
>> I am pretty sure I can't reach that location.
 >
> I copied this URL, pasted it in Mozilla thunderbird, and reached the=20
> (obsolete) document.

Unless you give all of the IETF access to your local disk some way, and=20
include a hostname in that URL, then we might be able to see the=20
document that you are linking to ;)

> Either you were wrong in being "pretty sure" (once more ??) or your=20
> browser, or your OS, has a problem.

I am still pretty sure about this. I guess you should take a good deep=20
look at the url :)

*hint*, it starts with file:// and then has /Users/Pro/Documents/.....

/me passes out fresh caffeine shots ;)

Indeed it works for you locally, as it is on your local disk, that is=20
the trick with the file: protocol handler.

Please provide a link to the document that resides on the public=20
internet. (Starting with 'http(s)://' is a good thing).

Greets,
  Jeroen


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 13:24:00 2008
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To: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
CC: v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>	<67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com>	<479CD34E.7010403@free.fr>	<A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com>	<479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <479D9E65.5090808@free.fr> <87ir1ee03n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <479DABCB.7030705@free.fr> <5F00FC98-D878-4305-838C-3D9A8B5D7E5A@muada.com> <479DDD8C.3010707@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <479DF86F.9060904@free.fr> <832C204A-0CBA-4147-ADFF-40E4AB6070AA@dragondata.com>
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Thanks for the detailed answer.
My comments are in line.

Kevin Day a écrit :
> 
> On Jan 28, 2008, at 9:44 AM, Rémi Després wrote:
> 
>> Jeroen Massar wrote :
>>> But using it on the wire or when presenting it to users is definitely 
>>> not.
>> Why ???
>>
> 
> The problem with presenting v4 mapped/compatibility addresses on the 
> wire is that the behavior of such packets has been left undefined so far.

> * How these packets should be routed is completely undefined.

I agree that there is some blank here.
However If a route is configured, with the 0::/64 prefix, to reach 
NATv6-v4 boxes, the longest prefix match will do what is expected.
Any other assumption would require some extra code.

> Should 
> routers handle them as though they were normal v6 unicast addresses? Or 
> should they look at the v4 address and route them the same way as though 
> it were v4?
NO.
> What about "special" v4 addresses (127.0.0.1, multicast, 
> etc)? From my very limited testing, it looks like Juniper routers drop 
> them, even if you add specific routes within the /96s for them. Our very 
IPv4 multicast destinations will have, and must have, the same fate in 
NATv4-v4s.

> * There seems to be no behavior for 6to4, Teredo or tunnel brokers to do 
> that results in anything working when receiving packets destined 
> to/sourced from these addresses.
Hosts considered here are assumed to be pure IPv6, and to be in sites 
where NATv6-v4 is available.

Boxes that do the NATv6-v4 may also have other means to tunnel IPv6 in 
IPv4.
There is no conflict because these other means act when destinations are 
IPv6, not IPv4-only.

> * There are profound security implications of allowing v4 
> mapped/compatibility addresses into your network. I'm not aware of any 
> firewall or security device that will handle v4 mapped/compatibility 
> addressed v6 packets, while still handling any of the behaviors 
> considered for v4. One example brought up on one of the FreeBSD mailing 
> lists long ago, before "net.inet6.ip6.v6only" got defaulted to "1" 
> (essentially turning off v4 compatibility address use) was something like:
> 
> # Add a firewall rule keeping everyone out of my telnet server. All 
> packets from anywhere to 1.2.3.4 to port 23 are dropped.
> ipfw add drop tcp from any to 1.2.3.4 23
> 
> Now, even if this host has no v6 configured beyond an auto-configured 
> link-local address, it was possible to "telnet ::FFFF:0102:0304" from 
> somewhere else on the LAN and bypass the firewall.
I am not sure I see the configuration.
But the NATv6-v4 I discuss being only for outgoing connections, it seems 
guaranteed that it cannot not create a new hole for incoming connections.

> Since then changes 
> were made to prevent this sort of thing in the simplest of cases (v4 
> compatibility addresses off by default, not accepting them over the wire 
> at any time, etc).
> 
> While that's a really simplistic example, it shows that allowing these 
> packets on the wire adds an attack vector that wouldn't be considered by 
> most. Its giving attackers three different ways of expressing the same 
> address(v4 native, mapped, and compatibility) which doesn't take much 
> imagination to see being exploited.
The mapped address is only to express the public address of IPv4-only 
hosts where native such addresses cannot be used (in IPv6-only 
applications and at IPv6 link interfaces of IPv6-only hosts).
It is not one more way to do something already done.

> * There's no standard for how clients/servers should respond to these, 
> leading to breakage already. If you send a Linux server a packet to 
> ::FFFF:0102:0304 it responds back using its v4 stack with 1.2.3.4. 
> Windows uses its v6 stack, even when it probably doesn't make sense to 
> (through 6to4/Teredo tunnels). Mac OS X and the BSDs drop all packets in 
> ::FFFF:0:0/96 and ::/96 going in/out.
The case at hand is for an IPv6-only host reaching IPv4-only servers.
These servers will not see any mapped address.

> The only time I could ever see them being acceptable is on a link-local 
> scope, and only to/from your gateway for NAT-PT,
It would work as well in multi-subnet sites provided both IPv6 and IPv4 
are routed (and that the 0::/64 prefix is not artificially forbidden in 
intra-site routers).

> and only in the case 
> where you've got a v6-ONLY box that must talk to a v4 device.
This "only" case is IMHO worth dealing with.
It could very well become soon a practical case, when boxes that support 
NATv4-v4 also support NATv6-v4, a rather simple an extension (longer 
address support in NAT tables).
> Even then 
> though, it feels wrong. :)
I do hope you will soon feel differently, and even enthousiastic as I am 
about this simple solution to a real problem.

Thanks again for the discussion.

Rémi




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To: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@unfix.org>
CC: v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>	<67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com>	<479CD34E.7010403@free.fr>	<A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com>	<479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <479D9E65.5090808@free.fr> <87ir1ee03n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <479DABCB.7030705@free.fr> <5F00FC98-D878-4305-838C-3D9A8B5D7E5A@muada.com> <479DDD8C.3010707@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <479DF86F.9060904@free.fr> <479DFF9F.8080208@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <479E0FAF.9080404@free.fr> <479E16AA.4050207@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com>
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Jeroen Massar wrote :

> Unless you give all of the IETF access to your local disk some way, and 
> include a hostname in that URL, then we might be able to see the 
> document that you are linking to ;)

You got me.
Apologies :-).

> *hint*, it starts with file:// and then has /Users/Pro/Documents/.....
> 
> /me passes out fresh caffeine shots ;)
> 
> Indeed it works for you locally, as it is on your local disk, that is 
> the trick with the file: protocol handler.
> 
> Please provide a link to the document that resides on the public 
> internet. (Starting with 'http(s)://' is a good thing).
Could you try this one:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-itojun-v6ops-v4mapped-harmful-00

Rémi




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 16:06:56 2008
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Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:00:16 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-addr-select-ps-02
References: <F96B84A0-6011-4CF4-81F8-99E20FED3CBD@muada.com> <87lk6b4ih5.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <479CEBF9.9000303@gmail.com> <84A24211-58A2-4655-9375-185AD286E8B6@cisco.com>
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On 2008-01-28 21:27, Fred Baker wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> Brian, I'm very perlexed by how you come to that conclusion. Maybe you
> can fill me in.
> 
> The text of rule 9 is:
> 
>    Rule 9:  Use longest matching prefix.
>    When DA and DB belong to the same address family (both are IPv6 or
>    both are IPv4): If CommonPrefixLen(DA, Source(DA)) >
>    CommonPrefixLen(DB, Source(DB)), then prefer DA.  Similarly, if
>    CommonPrefixLen(DA, Source(DA)) < CommonPrefixLen(DB, Source(DB)),
>    then prefer DB.
> 
> In the Internet, regardless of whether the prefixes are PA or PI, there
> is little if any reason to believe that any two customers chosen at
> random have the same provider. 

Of course - but there are circumstances where "at random" doesn't apply.
One case is  that inside an enterprise network that operates more
than one prefix, topology is likely to follow addressing. Another
example: in a geographical area with one dominant provider,
local-to-local traffic isn't quite random. Similarly, thinking longer
term, if any kind of municipal IXP starts handing out prefixes,
local-to-local traffic isn't quite random. For non-local traffic,
the rule *is* effectively a random choice. So as a rule quite far
down in the list, this seems more likely to do good than harm. That's
all I'm saying.

> I have appended four traceroutes for your
> (anecdotal) consideration in support of the point - I am served by Cox,
> but you use google mail (which apparently has multiple ISPs), Florian is
> reached through interscholz.net, ops.ietf.org is reached through NTT,
> and ietf.org is reached through AT&T. I would encourage you to spend an
> hour picking random domain names out of your mail spool and traceroute
> to them. If your view of the world is at all similar to mine, you will
> find your path going through your network, your provider, their
> provider, and their network, and potentially multiple networks in
> between the two providers.

That is certainly true.

> 
> If the two communicating networks have different upstream providers,
> what on God's Green Earth leads you to believe that they would have a
> common PA prefix? If they don't have a common prefix, exactly how does
> rule 9 help?

In no way, of course.

    Brian
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Jan 27, 2008, at 12:39 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> 
>> On 2008-01-28 00:26, Florian Weimer wrote:
>>> I've also noticed that the draft fails to mention that Rule 9, when
>>> applied by most of the client population on the Internet, results in
>>> worse performance than no destination address sorting at all.
>>>
>>> Rule 9 might offer a significant advantage in private deployments which
>>> use non-IANA address allocation.  In other cases, routing is typically
>>> not hierarchical at all, so that the length of the matching address
>>> prefix is meaningless.
>>
>> Not true if the sites concerned are both using PA space and
>> happen to have the same ISP. We still have hopes that PA space will
>> be predominant in IPv6, despite the PI heresy.
>>
>> Can you describe cases in which this rule is actively harmful?
>>
>>    Brian
> 
> 
> 
> [Fred-Bakers-Computer-3:~] fred% traceroute mail.google.com
> traceroute: Warning: mail.google.com has multiple addresses; using
> 209.85.199.18
> traceroute to googlemail.l.google.com (209.85.199.18), 64 hops max, 40
> byte packets
>  1  10.32.244.217 (10.32.244.217)  1.570 ms  1.153 ms  1.104 ms
>  2  wsip-98-173-193-1.sb.sd.cox.net (98.173.193.1)  87.274 ms  49.568
> ms  48.215 ms
>  3  68.6.13.101 (68.6.13.101)  57.624 ms  47.359 ms  38.188 ms
>  4  68.6.13.45 (68.6.13.45)  33.014 ms  32.715 ms  32.097 ms
>  5  paltbbrj02-ae0.0.r2.pt.cox.net (68.1.0.235)  51.490 ms  52.489 ms 
> 41.434 ms
>  6  209.85.130.2 (209.85.130.2)  125.613 ms  122.277 ms 209.85.130.6
> (209.85.130.6)  129.134 ms
>  7  66.249.95.135 (66.249.95.135)  110.462 ms  124.537 ms  116.237 ms
>  8  209.85.250.144 (209.85.250.144)  128.569 ms  130.422 ms  134.411 ms
>  9  64.233.174.131 (64.233.174.131)  145.547 ms 64.233.174.129
> (64.233.174.129)  132.366 ms  118.576 ms
> 10  * 209.85.248.254 (209.85.248.254)  125.765 ms  138.378 ms
> 11  rv-in-f18.google.com (209.85.199.18)  118.186 ms  109.112 ms *
> [Fred-Bakers-Computer-3:~] fred% traceroute
> [Fred-Bakers-Computer-3:~] fred% nslookup 209.85.130.2
> Server:         68.105.28.13
> Address:        68.105.28.13#53
> 
> Non-authoritative answer:
> *** Can't find 2.130.85.209.in-addr.arpa.: No answer
> 
> Authoritative answers can be found from:
> 
> [Fred-Bakers-Computer-3:~] fred% traceroute deneb.enyo.de
> traceroute to deneb.enyo.de (212.9.189.171), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
>  1  10.32.244.217 (10.32.244.217)  1.528 ms  1.131 ms  1.126 ms
>  2  wsip-98-173-193-1.sb.sd.cox.net (98.173.193.1)  12.350 ms  10.628
> ms  10.509 ms
>  3  68.6.13.101 (68.6.13.101)  14.043 ms  13.115 ms  12.642 ms
>  4  68.6.13.45 (68.6.13.45)  18.518 ms  17.599 ms  16.974 ms
>  5  paltbbrj02-ae0.0.r2.pt.cox.net (68.1.0.235)  33.845 ms  31.246 ms 
> 31.796 ms
>  6  so-1-2-2.mpr2.sjc2.us.above.net (64.125.29.126)  31.804 ms  32.963
> ms  29.991 ms
>  7  so-1-0-0.mpr1.lga5.us.above.net (64.125.26.142)  106.799 ms  104.833
> ms  106.786 ms
>  8  so-0-0-0.mpr1.lga5.us.above.net (64.125.27.237)  107.908 ms  109.646
> ms  107.201 ms
>  9  so-1-0-0.mpr1.ams1.nl.above.net (64.125.27.186)  192.188 ms  190.569
> ms  192.356 ms
> 10  pos-9-1.mpr2.fra1.de.above.net (64.125.23.253)  206.446 ms  201.130
> ms  201.177 ms
> 11  ge-9-7.er2b.fra1.de.above.net (64.125.23.210)  200.881 ms
> ge-9-4.er2b.fra1.de.above.net (64.125.23.206)  199.369 ms
> ge-9-7.er2b.fra1.de.above.net (64.125.23.210)  202.015 ms
> 12  c12gsr-5-02.intx.fra.interscholz.net (62.93.193.62)  201.813 ms 
> 208.735 ms  198.146 ms
> 13  c12gsr-3-02.z10a.stg.interscholz.net (85.236.200.229)  205.121 ms 
> 207.205 ms  204.092 ms
> 14  ge-knd-lfnet.z10.stg.interscholz.net (85.236.201.130)  204.035 ms 
> 201.747 ms  209.954 ms
> 15  dsl-gw.ispeg.de (212.9.161.26)  202.581 ms  201.286 ms  200.045 ms
> 16  dsl.enyo.de (213.178.172.64)  227.865 ms  237.674 ms  228.145 ms
> 17  * *^C
> [Fred-Bakers-Computer-3:~] fred% traceroute ops.ietf.org
> traceroute to ops.ietf.org (147.28.0.62), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
>  1  10.32.244.217 (10.32.244.217)  1.320 ms  1.063 ms  1.030 ms
>  2  wsip-98-173-193-1.sb.sd.cox.net (98.173.193.1)  15.270 ms  14.536
> ms  12.443 ms
>  3  68.6.13.117 (68.6.13.117)  17.136 ms  13.310 ms  13.317 ms
>  4  68.6.13.49 (68.6.13.49)  17.679 ms  22.767 ms  19.230 ms
>  5  paltbbrj01-so000.0.r2.pt.cox.net (68.1.0.199)  43.538 ms  41.442 ms 
> 43.887 ms
>  6  ae-1.r20.snjsca04.us.bb.gin.ntt.net (129.250.5.33)  48.245 ms 
> 42.201 ms  47.455 ms
>  7  p64-0-0-0.r20.sttlwa01.us.bb.gin.ntt.net (129.250.4.22)  72.543 ms 
> 66.362 ms  81.955 ms
>  8  p16-0-0-0.r05.sttlwa01.us.bb.gin.ntt.net (129.250.3.11)  66.021 ms 
> 72.685 ms  65.238 ms
>  9  p1-0.psg.sttlwa01.us.bb.gin.ntt.net (129.250.11.42)  69.071 ms 
> 64.404 ms  64.297 ms
> 10  * *^C
> [Fred-Bakers-Computer-3:~] fred% traceroute ietf.org
> traceroute: Warning: ietf.org has multiple addresses; using 209.173.53.180
> traceroute to ietf.org (209.173.53.180), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
>  1  10.32.244.217 (10.32.244.217)  1.581 ms  1.118 ms  1.095 ms
>  2  wsip-98-173-193-1.sb.sd.cox.net (98.173.193.1)  18.068 ms  12.854
> ms  14.602 ms
>  3  68.6.13.101 (68.6.13.101)  12.794 ms  11.780 ms  14.710 ms
>  4  68.6.13.45 (68.6.13.45)  20.709 ms  28.882 ms  27.386 ms
>  5  fed1dsrj02-so010.0.rd.sd.cox.net (68.6.8.13)  18.876 ms  17.096 ms 
> 22.599 ms
>  6  tbr1.la2ca.ip.att.net (12.122.104.38)  79.486 ms  79.698 ms  79.613 ms
>  7  tbr2.la2ca.ip.att.net (12.122.9.146)  80.148 ms  80.635 ms  84.841 ms
>  8  tbr2.sl9mo.ip.att.net (12.122.10.13)  82.377 ms  82.078 ms  96.295 ms
>  9  tbr1.sl9mo.ip.att.net (12.122.9.141)  91.041 ms  81.589 ms  78.615 ms
> 10  tbr1.wswdc.ip.att.net (12.122.10.29)  80.846 ms  76.828 ms  78.812 ms
> 11  12.123.8.193 (12.123.8.193)  91.766 ms  77.840 ms  77.159 ms
> 12  12.118.28.10 (12.118.28.10)  79.630 ms  82.614 ms  79.309 ms
> 
> 
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 
> iD8DBQFHnZH+bjEdbHIsm0MRAozqAKCCXuLKmV+8JiXtUCpxnKOITCxnVgCfYtud
> i89+S4Fxu8roS5m85TwYw7o=
> =7HEA
> -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
> 




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 16:10:31 2008
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Message-ID: <479E4499.7020404@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Jan 2008 10:09:45 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
CC: =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVzcHLDqXM=?= <remi.despres@free.fr>, 
 Florian Weimer <fw@deneb.enyo.de>,
 Alain Durand <alain_durand@cable.comcast.com>, 
 v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96 (mail.comcast.net AAAA record
 weirdness)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>	<67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com>	<479CD34E.7010403@free.fr>	<A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com>	<479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <479D9E65.5090808@free.fr> <87ir1ee03n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <479DABCB.7030705@free.fr> <5F00FC98-D878-4305-838C-3D9A8B5D7E5A@muada.com>
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On 2008-01-29 01:53, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:
> On 28 jan 2008, at 11:17, R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s wrote:
>=20
>>>> << Applications may use PF_INET6 sockets to open TCP connections to
>>>> IPv4
>>>>   nodes, or send UDP packets to IPv4 nodes, by simply encoding the
>>>>   destination's IPv4 address as an IPv4-mapped IPv6 address, and
>>>>   passing that address, within a sockaddr_in6 structure, in the
>>>>   connect() or sendto() call. >>
>>> How important is this feature in practice?  Could we deprecate it?
>> IMO deprecating it would be a bad step backward!
>=20
>=20
> Indeed.
>=20
> I can't say that I spend a lot of time writing applications, but I
> consider having a single interface to talk IPv4 and IPv6 extremely
> important. Without that, it's very easy to have bugs that only come up
> in one IP version and it is of course extra work to have two sets of
> socket calls. Worse, it's not possible to create IP version agnostic
> applications.

I agree. That's why I've just come to realise the disastrous effect of
overloading IPv4-mapped addresses for both RFC 2553 and NAT-PT/SIIT usage=
=2E
We blew it.

Unfortunately, the above "may" isn't even a normative MAY, let alone
a SHOULD or MUST.

   Brian





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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: IPv6 Deployment Scenarios in 802.16 Networks
	Author(s)	: M. Shin, et al.
	Filename	: draft-ietf-v6ops-802-16-deployment-scenarios-07.txt
	Pages		: 17
	Date		: 2008-1-28
	
This document provides a detailed description of IPv6 deployment and
   integration methods and scenarios in wireless broadband access
   networks in coexistence with deployed IPv4 services.  In this
   document we will discuss main components of IPv6 IEEE 802.16 access
   networks and their differences from IPv4 IEEE 802.16 networks and how
   IPv6 is deployed and integrated in each of the IEEE 802.16
   technologies.

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From burglar0nby@aaglasgow.org Mon Jan 28 16:18:53 2008
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Jan 28 20:37:38 2008
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To: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@unfix.org>
cc: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>, v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
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On Mon, 28 Jan 2008, Jeroen Massar wrote:

> Yes, IPv4-mapped/compat was a good idea, and using it correctly internally in 
> an application is probably a good move. But using it on the wire or when 
> presenting it to users is definitely not.

If you use one socket per AF, you really wouldn't need mapped addresses 
would you?  And yet you agree that using mapped addresses correctly 
internally is a good thing.  The main motivator for using mapped 
internally is if you program to a single unified socket for both AF.  Or 
am I misunderstanding you?

I agree that mapped/compat on the wire is a bad thing but hasn't that dead 
horse been beaten enough already?

In a v6-only world none of this would matter, but we have a transition we 
need to get through and the way things are looking it's gonna be a very 
long transition.  I think for the majority of apps and their developers, a 
significant paradigm change to two socket programming adds unnecessary 
complexity and is counter-productive to transition efforts.  The benefits 
of unified socket simplicity outweigh the risks to the relatively small 
percentage of apps that actually need to care what type of IP address is 
used.


Antonio Querubin
whois:  AQ7-ARIN




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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 29 04:11:53 2008
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Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>	<67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com>	<479CD34E.7010403@free.fr>	<A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com>	<479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <479D9E65.5090808@free.fr> <87ir1ee03n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <479DABCB.7030705@free.fr> <5F00FC98-D878-4305-838C-3D9A8B5D7E5A@muada.com> <479DDD8C.3010707@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <479DF86F.9060904@free.fr> <832C204A-0CBA-4147-ADFF-40E4AB6070AA@dragondata.com> <AFE0AC8DCDE68842B94E8EC69D5F21D639F1F14CB1@NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com>
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Christian Huitema wrote :
> What about KISS? The current specification of ::FFFF:0:0/96 is
> essentially that of a "magic value".
In a different view, which IMHO is right, what RFC 2535 says makes 
sense, is indeed simple, and is not magic.
<<<
    The API also provides a different type of compatibility: the ability
    for IPv6 applications to interoperate with IPv4 applications.  This
    feature uses the IPv4-mapped IPv6 address format defined in the IPv6
    addressing architecture specification [2].  This address format
    allows the IPv4 address of an IPv4 node to be represented as an IPv6
    address.  The IPv4 address is encoded into the low-order 32 bits of
    the IPv6 address, and the high-order 96 bits hold the fixed prefix
    0:0:0:0:0:FFFF.  IPv4- mapped addresses are written as follows:

       ::FFFF:<IPv4-address>

    These addresses can be generated automatically by the
    getipnodebyname() function when the specified host has only IPv4
    addresses (as described in Section 6.1).

    Applications may use PF_INET6 sockets to open TCP connections to IPv4
    nodes, or send UDP packets to IPv4 nodes, by simply encoding the
    destination's IPv4 address as an IPv4-mapped IPv6 address, and
    passing that address, within a sockaddr_in6 structure, in the
    connect() or sendto() call.  When applications use PF_INET6 sockets
    to accept TCP connections from IPv4 nodes, or receive UDP packets
    from IPv4 nodes, the system returns the peer's address to the
    application in the accept(), recvfrom(), or getpeername() call using
    a sockaddr_in6 structure encoded this way.>>>

Since applications *MAY* use PF_INET6 to send packets to IPv4 nodes 
(IPv4 meaning here "IPv4-only"), dual stacks *SHOULD* better send these 
packets in IPv4 when IPv4 link interfaces are available: if sent in 
IPv6, they are likely to find no paths to their destinations; in IPv4 
they would normally reach their destinations.

> According to some, whenever that magic value is encountered,
> something extraordinary shall happen, such  > as switching to a different network level protocol. This is a recipe
> for trouble, because it breaks the "keep it simple" rule.
In the different view, letting applications to have only one socket 
interface is *simpler* than obliging them to know whether the IP layer 
works in IPv4 or IPv6.

> What we have for every other address prefix is simple. V6 packets are
> sent using V6, and the outgoing interfaces are chosen according to V6
> routing rules. In a host, the header of incoming V6 packet is
> checked, and unicast packets are rejected if the particular
> destination address is not recognized as a valid address for the
> receiving interface. In a router, packets are routed according to
> routing tables, and if no route is configured packets are dropped.
> Some routers may also perform ingress filtering. Anything more
> complex than is guaranteed to cause problems.
In my understanding all of this is right.
It would need however to be completed by something about v4-v6 coexistence.
What about something like: <<<
Packets the source or destination of which is IPv4 only must be: (1) in 
IPv4  on links that are IPv4-only or IPv4 and IPv6; (2) in IPv6 on 
IPv6-only links, with IPv4 addresses in mapped format.>>>

Note that, to route IPv6 packets the destination of which is mapped 
IPv4, the 0::/64 routing prefix should not be artificially considered as 
invalid by routers.

The typical case where this is useful is within multi-subnet sites where 
there are IPv6 only hosts, and where access to the IPv4 Internet is via 
  CPEs that support NATv6-v4. >>>

> I think that Itojun was right, and we should simply deprecate the
> ::FFFF:0:0/96 prefix.
Have you a reference where he suggests to go that far?

In Itojun's document I know,
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-itojun-v6ops-v4mapped-harmful-00,
the proposal, in 2003, was to avoid mapped addressses "on the wire"(not 
at socket interfaces).
As far as I know, this document became obsolete without Itojun himself 
insisting on the subject.

While it identifies some threats in some configurations, it doesn't 
conflict, in my undersatnding, with mapped addresses on the wire in some 
other useful ones.
One of these other configurations happens to be very pertinent (and IMHO 
completely Kiss :-) ) for IPv6-only client hosts to be able to reach 
IPv4-only servers.


Rémi




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Subject: RE: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
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> In the different view, letting applications to have only one socket
> interface is *simpler* than obliging them to know whether the IP layer
> works in IPv4 or IPv6.

We can debate whether that is in fact simpler. Most "simple programming" is=
 achieved using high level constructs such as RPC or Web interfaces. The fr=
action of programs written on the "socket" API tend to be written by sophis=
ticated developers who like "bare to the metal" constructs. But even if a s=
ingle listening was a goal, it can be achieved without messing with address=
 format, simply by avoiding early binding of the socket to a specific addre=
ss type, and then using specific addresses in their native formats whenever=
 necessary.

-- Christian Huitema







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Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>	<67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com>	<479CD34E.7010403@free.fr>	<A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com>	<479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <479D9E65.5090808@free.fr> <87ir1ee03n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <479DABCB.7030705@free.fr> <5F00FC98-D878-4305-838C-3D9A8B5D7E5A@muada.com> <479DDD8C.3010707@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <479DF86F.9060904@free.fr> <832C204A-0CBA-4147-ADFF-40E4AB6070AA@dragondata.com> <AFE0AC8DCDE68842B94E8EC69D5F21D639F1F14CB1@NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <479EEBB4.6080002@free.fr> <AFE0AC8DCDE68842B94E8EC69D5F21D639F1F150C8@NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com>
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Christian Huitema wrote :

>> In the different view, letting applications to have only one socket
>>  interface is *simpler* than obliging them to know whether the IP 
>> layer works in IPv4 or IPv6.
> 
> We can debate whether that is in fact simpler.
Right.
In this instance, that sems useful.

> Most "simple programming" is achieved using high level constructs
> such as RPC or Web interfaces. The fraction of programs written on
> the "socket" API tend to be written by sophisticated developers who
> like "bare to the metal" constructs.
In my view, that's legitimate.
But IMO conformance to RFC 2353 sec 3.7 doesn't make dual stacks less
"bare to the metal"

> But even if a single listening was a goal,
In my reading of RFC 2335-3.7, this *was* a goal, and a good one.

> it can be achieved without messing with address format,
Listening for an address without being concerned with the remote host
being IPv6 or IPv4 only, as RFC 2353-3.7 permits, was IMO not "messing
with address formats".
Permitting to express a 32 bit address in a 128 bit format was IMO a
good and natural decision.

> simply by avoiding early binding of the socket to a specific address
> type, and then using specific addresses in their native formats
> whenever necessary.
Yes it can work.
And applications that have this behavior can keep it, even if dual
stacks do conform to RFC 2353-3.7.
But they can hardly be considered as *IPv6-only*.
IPv6-only applications *do need* RFC 2353-3.7 dual stack conformance.

Deprecating mapped addresses would be a bad step backward, while
correcting RFC2535-3.7 conformance in dual stacks that don't conform
would be a good step forward.
I would have no adverse effect that I know on any existing application.

The bottom line would be that always:
- Server applications that have IPv4 sockets, or that have unspecified
address family sockets, will receive IPv4 addresses on them.
- Server applications that only have IPv6 sockets will receive IPv4
addresses on them, in mapped format.
- Client applications that have IPv6 sockets, and present on them remote 
host addresses that are IPv4 mapped addresses will, without having to 
tell more, activate their IPv4 stacks.
This seems to me the nice and simple logic we need.


Rémi







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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Jan 29 22:39:34 2008
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Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 16:34:04 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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 v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
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On 2008-01-29 22:02, R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s wrote:
=2E..
> In Itojun's document I know,
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-itojun-v6ops-v4mapped-harmful-00,
> the proposal, in 2003, was to avoid mapped addressses "on the wire"(not=

> at socket interfaces).
> As far as I know, this document became obsolete without Itojun himself
> insisting on the subject.

I don't think he changed his mind, though. And this thread started
with operational difficulties caused by such addresses in the wild.

> While it identifies some threats in some configurations, it doesn't
> conflict, in my undersatnding, with mapped addresses on the wire in som=
e
> other useful ones.
> One of these other configurations happens to be very pertinent (and IMH=
O
> completely Kiss :-) ) for IPv6-only client hosts to be able to reach
> IPv4-only servers.

There's no fundamental need for a magic prefix. Iljitsch and I will have
a combined draft out soon that will discuss this. Being able to use a
regular unicast or anycast prefix to reach the translator is more KISS
than a magic prefix, IMHO.

    Brian





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From bruce@conwaymechanical.com Wed Jan 30 02:02:05 2008
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 30 03:18:42 2008
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Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
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Brian E Carpenter a Ă©crit :
> On 2008-01-29 22:02, Rémi Després wrote:
>> While it identifies some threats in some configurations, it doesn't
>> conflict, in my undersatnding, with mapped addresses on the wire in some
>> other useful ones.
>> One of these other configurations happens to be very pertinent (and IMHO
>> completely Kiss :-) ) for IPv6-only client hosts to be able to reach
>> IPv4-only servers.
> 
> There's no fundamental need for a magic prefix. Iljitsch and I will have
> a combined draft out soon that will discuss this. Being able to use a
> regular unicast or anycast prefix to reach the translator is more KISS
> than a magic prefix, IMHO.

I agree that other prefixes than mapped address prefix (0::/64) can be 
proposed to go across a v6 cloud to the v4 world.
But I see them as an indirect solution to a need that can be satisfied 
with a direct one.

This "unicast OR anycast prefix" needs being invented, and specified, 
while the mapped address prefix exists already, and to my knowledge 
works nicely.

With the mapped address prefix, IPv6-only hosts that send packets to 
IPv4-only hosts have, without any address translation, the right routing 
prefix in their destination address. They are *real IPv6-only*.

It seems to me that the combined draft you work on would be 
significantly simplified (and therefore improved) if it would replace 
the "unicast OR anycast prefix" by the existing mapped address /64 prefix.
(I believe, like you and Iljitsch do, that scalable NATs between v6 and 
v4 are a useful approach for the v4-v6 coexistence period, and that for 
this they may have to be split. But I also believe that some 
improvements are still possible in this approach. Accepting and using 
the mapped address prefix would IMHO be one of them.)

Maybe I miss something, but the question is "what is it exactly?".

RĂ©mi




From ettendem@1stamerica.net Wed Jan 30 07:40:39 2008
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 30 13:21:32 2008
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Subject: Old / new NAT-PT coexistance?
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 19:13:45 +0100
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Question for the WG:

Do we care about coexistance of old style and new style NAT-PT?

The new style that Brian and I are working on is going to require  
changes on the IPv6 side, which won't be made over night: looking up A  
records by the hosts themselves rather than having a DNS ALG generate  
synthetic AAAA records for IPv4-only destinations.

The problem is that you would have to provision different DNS  
resolvers for hosts that are IPv6-only and do not support the new  
style NAT-PT versus the ones that do and dual stack hosts. This could  
be a problem. Solution: have hosts that do DNS lookups over IPv6  
transport indicate that they support new style NAT-PT and don't need  
the synthetic AAAA records through EDNS0.

Is this something we want or can we assume that old style NAT-PT is  
dead so we don't have to consider issues relating to it?




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 30 13:34:20 2008
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From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Old / new NAT-PT coexistance?
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 10:32:06 -0800
To: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
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Speaking strictly for myself, I don't see any reason to believe that  
NAT-PT is dead. I believe that v6ops doesn't like it, but it is  
implemented and in use. We all know how folks who are successfully  
using something automatically turn it off and use something else when  
we tell them to...

On Jan 30, 2008, at 10:13 AM, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:

> Question for the WG:
>
> Do we care about coexistance of old style and new style NAT-PT?
>
> The new style that Brian and I are working on is going to require  
> changes on the IPv6 side, which won't be made over night: looking  
> up A records by the hosts themselves rather than having a DNS ALG  
> generate synthetic AAAA records for IPv4-only destinations.
>
> The problem is that you would have to provision different DNS  
> resolvers for hosts that are IPv6-only and do not support the new  
> style NAT-PT versus the ones that do and dual stack hosts. This  
> could be a problem. Solution: have hosts that do DNS lookups over  
> IPv6 transport indicate that they support new style NAT-PT and  
> don't need the synthetic AAAA records through EDNS0.
>
> Is this something we want or can we assume that old style NAT-PT is  
> dead so we don't have to consider issues relating to it?
>





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From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Subject: Fwd: I-D Action:draft-jcurran-v6transitionplan-02.txt 
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FYI

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> Date: January 30, 2008 10:20:01 AM PST
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> Subject: I-D Action:draft-jcurran-v6transitionplan-02.txt
> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts  
> directories.
>
> 	Title           : An Internet Transition Plan
> 	Author(s)       : J. Curran
> 	Filename        : draft-jcurran-v6transitionplan-02.txt
> 	Pages           : 8
> 	Date            : 2008-01-30
>
> This memo provides one possible plan for transitioning the Internet
>   from a predominantly IPv4-based connectivity model to a  
> predominantly
>   IPv6-based connectivity model.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jcurran- 
> v6transitionplan-02.txt
>
> To remove yourself from the I-D Announcement list, send a message to
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>
> Send a message to:
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> 	"FILE /internet-drafts/draft-jcurran-v6transitionplan-02.txt".
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> NOTE:   The mail server at ietf.org can return the document in
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 30 14:22:32 2008
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On 30-jan-2008, at 19:32, Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com> wrote:

> Speaking strictly for myself, I don't see any reason to believe that  
> NAT-PT is dead. I believe that v6ops doesn't like it, but it is  
> implemented and in use. We all know how folks who are successfully  
> using something automatically turn it off and use something else  
> when we tell them to...
>>
>>
>>
>>

So that would be a "yes" to the EDNS0 idea?




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From: John Curran <jcurran@mail.com>
Subject: Re: Fwd: I-D Action:draft-jcurran-v6transitionplan-02.txt
Cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>,
 Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, Lars Eggert <lars.eggert@nokia.com>,
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>At 10:59 AM -0800 1/30/08, Fred Baker wrote:
>A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>
>	Title           : An Internet Transition Plan
>	Author(s)       : J. Curran
>	Filename        : draft-jcurran-v6transitionplan-02.txt
>	Pages           : 8
>	Date            : 2008-01-30
>
>This memo provides one possible plan for transitioning the Internet
>  from a predominantly IPv4-based connectivity model to a predominantly
>  IPv6-based connectivity model.

Thanks Fred...   For the curious, here's the extract from the change log:

>Changes from -01 version to -02 version:
>
> o  Clarification of pilot nature of IPv6 services prior to
>    start of Transition Phase.
> 
> o  Strengthen use of native IPv6 in Post-Transition Phase.

Basically, I updated it to clarify that in "Preparation" phase, use
of IPv6 services (even "beta/pilot/pre-production" IPv6 services)
is recommended.  I also received comments that we should more
strongly recommend native IPv6 in the Post-Transition stage, and
updated accordingly.

FYI,
/John




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Subject: 6to4 anycast IP as source address / PTR record
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Quick poll:

When a 6to4 relay encapsulates v6 traffic and sends it to a 6to4 host  
over v4, should the source address be 192.88.99.1 or the relay's v4  
unicast address?

RFC3056 and RFC3068 are both silent on this decision, as far as I can  
tell. If anything, I believe that RFC3068 is slightly hinting that  
192.88.99.1 was intended, because one of the suggestions in there is  
to include the v4 unicast address in the BGP aggregator attribute for  
troubleshooting purposes. If the relay router were returning its  
unicast v4 address in its replies, I'm not sure why an additional way  
of revealing the unicast address would be necessary.


My take is that it should use 192.88.99.1. It makes the flow between  
the relay and the client more symmetric (one flow instead of two, if  
you're looking purely at layer 3). Stateful firewalls are more likely  
to do the right thing. Network administrators are going to have a  
better chance of understanding why 192.88.99.1 is sending loads of  
traffic to systems on their network, instead of some random unicast  
IP. This is also how the majority of 6to4 relays that I can see from  
our network operate.

Arguments supporting this position:

http://www.ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2004/msg00253.html  -- "As  
an anycast address, 192.88.99.1 should probably not appear as a source  
address, however for reasons related to both operational and software  
it does."

draft-savola-v6ops-6to4-security-02.txt -- "Every 6to4 Relay MUST  
configure and use "192.88.99.1" as the source address of packets that  
are encapsulated towards 6to4 Routers."

RFC3964 -- "This threat is caused by 6to4 deployment but can be  
avoided, at least in the short-term, by using 192.88.99.1 as the  
source address."


The opposing view is that relays should use their own unicast IP as  
the source. This makes troubleshooting 6to4 problems easier, and may  
be required for some networks with stricter anti-spoofing rules. I'm  
not sold on either argument, but not enough to say it's wrong.

Regardless of which is right, I think the current RFCs are ambiguous  
on this point, and that it should probably be clarified - even if the  
clarification is to say that both are acceptable. If any of the  
original RFC authors are watching, how did you see this working? Or  
was this intentionally left out as an implementation detail?


The reason this is coming up right now... Since we've started running  
a 6to4 relay, we've had a few complaints show up at our abuse@ box  
asking what this 192.88.99.1 host is on our network, why its WHOIS  
doesn't make sense, and why it's sending them traffic. It occurred to  
me that if there was a PTR record for 1.99.88.192.in-addr.arpa that it  
might seem slightly less suspicious in firewall logs, or at least give  
network operators unfamiliar with 6to4 enough information to know what  
to look up. i.e. if you see 199.7.83.42 showing up talking to one of  
your servers, do you recognize that IP immediately? If not, does the  
fact that it resolves to l.root-servers.net give you enough of a  
starting place to know where to find out what it is? Especially think  
about novice network operators who need a push where to look.

Currently 99.88.192.in-addr.arpa is delegated to ARINs name servers.  
Their servers return SERVFAIL on queries sent for that zone. From  
talking to a few people at ARIN, they seem a bit unsure why their  
nameservers were used for that zone, and were never given instructions  
from IANA to add any records to it at all. So, I took this to IANA who  
said "Good point, but our understanding is that relays shouldn't ever  
be using that IP to send any packets - is this really a problem?" I  
disagreed, and was asked if I could find a consensus on this matter  
here.

So, does anyone feel strongly one way or another about which address a  
6to4 relay should use when encapsulating packets? Additionally, is  
anyone strongly for or against adding a PTR record for 192.88.99.1  
that might help document its use better?

-- Kevin




--Apple-Mail-49-94104589
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=US-ASCII
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Quick poll:</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>When a 6to4 relay =
encapsulates v6 traffic and sends it to a 6to4 host over v4, should the =
source address be 192.88.99.1 or the relay's v4 unicast =
address?</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>RFC3056 and RFC3068 are =
both silent on this decision, as far as I can tell. If anything, I =
believe that RFC3068 is slightly hinting that 192.88.99.1 was intended, =
because&nbsp;one of the suggestions in there is to include the v4 =
unicast address in the BGP aggregator attribute for troubleshooting =
purposes. If the relay router were returning its unicast v4 address in =
its replies, I'm not sure why an additional way of revealing the unicast =
address would be necessary.</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>My take is that it should =
use 192.88.99.1. It makes the flow between the relay and the client more =
symmetric (one flow instead of two, if you're looking purely at layer =
3). Stateful firewalls are more likely to do the right thing. Network =
administrators are going to have a better chance of understanding why =
192.88.99.1 is sending loads of traffic to systems on their network, =
instead of some random unicast IP. This is also how the majority of 6to4 =
relays that I can see from our network operate.</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Arguments supporting this =
position:</div><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><a =
href=3D"http://www.ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2004/msg00253.html">http=
://www.ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2004/msg00253.html</a>&nbsp;&nbsp;--=
 "As an anycast address, 192.88.99.1 should probably not appear as a =
source address, however for reasons related to both operational and =
software it does."</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>draft-savola-v6ops-6to4-secu=
rity-02.txt -- "Every 6to4 Relay MUST configure and use "192.88.99.1" as =
the source address of packets that are encapsulated towards 6to4 =
Routers."</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>RFC3964 -- "This threat is =
caused by 6to4 deployment but can be avoided, at least in the =
short-term, by using 192.88.99.1 as the source address."</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>The opposing view is that =
relays should use their own unicast IP as the source. This makes =
troubleshooting 6to4 problems easier, and may be required for some =
networks with stricter anti-spoofing rules.&nbsp;I'm not sold on either =
argument, but not enough to say it's wrong.</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Regardless of which is =
right, I think the current RFCs are&nbsp;ambiguous&nbsp;on this point, =
and that it should probably be clarified - even if the clarification is =
to say that both are acceptable. If any of the original RFC authors are =
watching, how did you see this working? Or was this intentionally left =
out as an implementation detail?</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>The reason this is coming =
up right now... Since we've started running a 6to4 relay, we've had a =
few complaints show up at our abuse@ box asking what this 192.88.99.1 =
host is on our network, why its WHOIS doesn't make sense, and why it's =
sending them traffic. It occurred to me that if there was a PTR record =
for 1.99.88.192.in-addr.arpa that it might seem slightly less suspicious =
in firewall logs, or at least give network operators unfamiliar with =
6to4 enough information to know what to look up. i.e. if you =
see&nbsp;199.7.83.42 showing up talking to one of your servers, do you =
recognize that IP immediately? If not, does the fact that it resolves to =
l.root-servers.net give you enough of a starting place to know where to =
find out what it is? Especially think about novice network operators who =
need a push where to look.</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Currently =
99.88.192.in-addr.arpa is delegated to ARINs name servers. Their servers =
return SERVFAIL on queries sent for that zone. =46rom talking to a few =
people at ARIN, they seem a bit unsure why their nameservers were used =
for that zone, and were never given instructions from IANA to add any =
records to it at all. So, I took this to IANA who said "Good point, but =
our understanding is that relays shouldn't ever be using that IP to send =
any packets - is this really a problem?" I disagreed, and was asked if I =
could find a consensus on this matter here.</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>So, does anyone feel =
strongly one way or another about which address a 6to4 relay should use =
when encapsulating packets? Additionally, is anyone strongly for or =
against adding a PTR record for 192.88.99.1 that might help document its =
use better?</div><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>--=
 Kevin</div><div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-49-94104589--




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From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Subject: draft-jcurran-v6transitionplan-02.txt
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Thanks for this note, John. May I humbly request that, if you update  
it further, that you tag it draft-jcurran-v6ops-*? I tend to notice  
those a lot more easily than I do documents that don't reference the  
working group.

One question. I agree that the roll-out should be phased, and that  
providers world-wide need to take matters seriously, which I think is  
the high-order bit of your message. However, you provide very  
concrete dates on which cut-over events should take place, based on  
data which is the best available but is none-the-less somewhat  
approximate. We estimate that the IANA will hand out the last IPv4  
prefix in the neighborhood of the end of 2009; one could easily  
imagine the actual event happening either a bit earlier or a bit  
later, or some RIR policy changing that makes it a lot earlier or a  
lot later. For example, Geoff suggests that the ISPs will simply  
start buying and selling addresses out of their allocations. If they  
are contemplating doing that, given that the RIRs allocate them based  
on a detailed assertion that the organization allocated to really  
needs more addresses to run its business, I should think that the  
RIRs could get pretty fussy about that analysis.

So I wonder if the dates should be more approximate, or if operator  
fora such as NANOG or RIPE should be left room to diddle with them  
somehow.




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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:46:49 +1300
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Subject: Re: 6to4 anycast IP as source address / PTR record
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On 2008-01-31 13:33, Kevin Day wrote:
> 
> Quick poll:
> 
> When a 6to4 relay encapsulates v6 traffic and sends it to a 6to4 host
> over v4, should the source address be 192.88.99.1 or the relay's v4
> unicast address?

This kind of makes my head hurt because...
> 
> RFC3056 and RFC3068 are both silent on this decision, as far as I can
> tell. 

Naturally, 3056 is silent because the notions of host-based 6to4 and
of an anycast address for the relay were both absent at that time.
The idea was router-based 6to4 with the relay's IPv4 address
being just another router's address (i.e. very definitely not anycast).

> If anything, I believe that RFC3068 is slightly hinting that
> 192.88.99.1 was intended, because one of the suggestions in there is to
> include the v4 unicast address in the BGP aggregator attribute for
> troubleshooting purposes. If the relay router were returning its unicast
> v4 address in its replies, I'm not sure why an additional way of
> revealing the unicast address would be necessary.
> 
> 
> My take is that it should use 192.88.99.1. It makes the flow between the
> relay and the client more symmetric (one flow instead of two, if you're
> looking purely at layer 3). Stateful firewalls are more likely to do the
> right thing. Network administrators are going to have a better chance of
> understanding why 192.88.99.1 is sending loads of traffic to systems on
> their network, instead of some random unicast IP. This is also how the
> majority of 6to4 relays that I can see from our network operate.
> 
> Arguments supporting this position:
> 
> http://www.ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2004/msg00253.html  -- "As an
> anycast address, 192.88.99.1 should probably not appear as a source
> address, however for reasons related to both operational and software it
> does."
> 
> draft-savola-v6ops-6to4-security-02.txt -- "Every 6to4 Relay MUST
> configure and use "192.88.99.1" as the source address of packets that
> are encapsulated towards 6to4 Routers."

Well, that has no authority; it's preempted by 3964.
> 
> RFC3964 -- "This threat is caused by 6to4 deployment but can be avoided,
> at least in the short-term, by using 192.88.99.1 as the source address."

Which, being Informational, can only be advisory...
> 
> 
> The opposing view is that relays should use their own unicast IP as the
> source. This makes troubleshooting 6to4 problems easier, and may be
> required for some networks with stricter anti-spoofing rules. I'm not
> sold on either argument, but not enough to say it's wrong.
> 
> Regardless of which is right, I think the current RFCs are ambiguous on
> this point, and that it should probably be clarified - even if the
> clarification is to say that both are acceptable. 

I think that's the only viable choice, because there will be
deployments where one or the other is better.

> If any of the original
> RFC authors are watching, how did you see this working? Or was this
> intentionally left out as an implementation detail?
> 
> 
> The reason this is coming up right now... Since we've started running a
> 6to4 relay, we've had a few complaints show up at our abuse@ box asking
> what this 192.88.99.1 host is on our network, why its WHOIS doesn't make
> sense, and why it's sending them traffic. It occurred to me that if
> there was a PTR record for 1.99.88.192.in-addr.arpa that it might seem
> slightly less suspicious in firewall logs, or at least give network
> operators unfamiliar with 6to4 enough information to know what to look
> up. i.e. if you see 199.7.83.42 showing up talking to one of your
> servers, do you recognize that IP immediately? If not, does the fact
> that it resolves to l.root-servers.net give you enough of a starting
> place to know where to find out what it is? Especially think about
> novice network operators who need a push where to look.
> 
> Currently 99.88.192.in-addr.arpa is delegated to ARINs name servers.
> Their servers return SERVFAIL on queries sent for that zone. From
> talking to a few people at ARIN, they seem a bit unsure why their
> nameservers were used for that zone, and were never given instructions
> from IANA to add any records to it at all. So, I took this to IANA who
> said "Good point, but our understanding is that relays shouldn't ever be
> using that IP to send any packets - is this really a problem?" I
> disagreed, and was asked if I could find a consensus on this matter here.
> 
> So, does anyone feel strongly one way or another about which address a
> 6to4 relay should use when encapsulating packets? 

See above - I don't think there's an answer.

> Additionally, is
> anyone strongly for or against adding a PTR record for 192.88.99.1 that
> might help document its use better?

Well, yes, but unless it can point to rfc3964.tools.ietf.org
I'm not sure it will help people much.

   Brian




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 30 21:08:25 2008
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Subject: Re: 6to4 anycast IP as source address / PTR record
Date: Wed, 30 Jan 2008 20:06:57 -0600
References: <9F195FE7-E47F-4CC3-B93E-5FA4AAF1088A@dragondata.com> <47A12889.3080501@gmail.com>
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On Jan 30, 2008, at 7:46 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> On 2008-01-31 13:33, Kevin Day wrote:
>>
>> When a 6to4 relay encapsulates v6 traffic and sends it to a 6to4 host
>> over v4, should the source address be 192.88.99.1 or the relay's v4
>> unicast address?
>
> This kind of makes my head hurt because...
>>
>> RFC3056 and RFC3068 are both silent on this decision, as far as I can
>> tell.
>
> Naturally, 3056 is silent because the notions of host-based 6to4 and
> of an anycast address for the relay were both absent at that time.
> The idea was router-based 6to4 with the relay's IPv4 address
> being just another router's address (i.e. very definitely not  
> anycast).

Sorry, I didn't mean that to sound like 3056 should have had anything  
to say about this specific issue, just that it didn't mention v4  
source address selection at all. 3068 also didn't mention it, which it  
maybe should have.

>> Regardless of which is right, I think the current RFCs are  
>> ambiguous on
>> this point, and that it should probably be clarified - even if the
>> clarification is to say that both are acceptable.
>
> I think that's the only viable choice, because there will be
> deployments where one or the other is better.

Agreed. But if that is the general consensus, I believe it should be  
documented somehow.

My take on the situation was that the only thing that made sense was  
to use 192.88.99.1 - like just about everything else on the internet,  
if packets are sent to that IP, replies should come from that IP.  
Others believed the exact opposite. If both are right, documenting  
that somewhere makes the most sense.

>> Additionally, is
>> anyone strongly for or against adding a PTR record for 192.88.99.1  
>> that
>> might help document its use better?
>
> Well, yes, but unless it can point to rfc3964.tools.ietf.org
> I'm not sure it will help people much.

I'm not exactly sure what, but I was thinking something along the  
lines of "anycast.6to4.relay.see.rfc3068.net" which I think would give  
people enough to find out more on their own.

-- Kevin





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On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Kevin Day wrote:

> relay should use when encapsulating packets? Additionally, is anyone strongly 
> for or against adding a PTR record for 192.88.99.1 that might help document 
> its use better?

A PTR record should probably be added but it's not a show-stopper.  Doing 
a whois for 192.88.99.0 or googling 192.88.99.1 should provide anyone 
curious enough with more info than a PTR RR would.




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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Jan 30 23:27:14 2008
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Kevin Day wrote:
> 
> Quick poll:
> 
> When a 6to4 relay encapsulates v6 traffic and sends it to a 6to4 host 
> over v4, should the source address be 192.88.99.1 or the relay's v4 
> unicast address?

Stateful firewalls would prefer that the return traffic come from
192.88.99.1 (assuming they properly handle proto 41 traffic).

- Kevin




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From: "Vishwas Manral" <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: 6PE-Alt
Cc: jeremy.de_clercq@alcatel-lucent.be, dirk@onesparrow.com, 
	stuart.prevost@bt.com, flefauch@cisco.com
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Hi folks,

We have written a draft which will possibly replace the 6PE RFC. The
6PE RFC uses a label to be sent along with the prefix for each route.
This label is then used as the "VPN label" (keeping with the
terminology of BGP MPLS IP VPN RFC). However the only use the label
serves is to tell the encapsulated packet is an IPv6 packet, as well
as some additional uses as defined in the RFC.

Because a VPN label is required and its only use is to signal that the
inside packet is IPv6, we instead elegantly use the "IPv6 Explicit
NULL label". This label signals the same information. The advantage is
that labels need not be added with the routes and no such extension is
required. It also considerably simplifies the Multi AS scenarios.

The draft will soon be visible in the IETF site and is attached here.

Thanks,
Vishwas and Manoj

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 filename=draft-manral-idr-mpls-explicit-null-00.txt

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------=_Part_34925_1070219.1201756106164--




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 01:30:41 2008
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Message-Id: <B6AE2BB5-509B-467A-8472-497263CBB39B@daork.net>
From: Nathan Ward <v6ops@daork.net>
To: v6ops WG <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Subject: More on bittorrent
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 19:27:25 +1300
Cc: Daniel Lawson <daniel@meta.net.nz>
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Hi,

A few months back I had some stats I'd obtained from looking at packet  
traces when running Bittorrent.

I'm doing a bit more looking in to that to attempt to give some  
insights about how one might transition customers to using an IPv6  
service, in a world where there are no public IPv4 addresses  
available. I expect that I can prove that service provider NAT+IPv6 is  
sufficient. Let's park whatever religious debate happens on that topic  
to /dev/null for the moment. I'm also looking in to whatever other  
interesting Teredo and 6to4 things I see, and this is a pretty good  
way to talk to a large number of IPv6 hosts.

Recent versions of Azureus (bittorrent client) have a distributed hash  
tables (DHT) feature, which enables a sort of tracker-less mode of  
operation. As azureus has some kind of content distribution network on  
the back of it (Vuze, I think they call it), the DHT system is started  
even if the client is not fetching torrents. Again, I'm not moving any  
download data, I am meerly joining the DHT cloud.

So, my setup is;
- 1 IPv4 interface
- 1 Teredo interface (set up in such a way that my Teredo address  
won't change)
- 1 6to4 interface

I'm capturing packets on each of these, and am looking at how to  
process the packets to find the following:
- How many hosts am I talking to on each interface? (ie. I send a  
packet and they respond, indicating open connectivity)
- How many 6to4 hosts am I also talking to on IPv4 (assumption made by  
looking at bits 17-48 of the IPv6 address)
- How many Teredo hosts am I also talking to on IPv4 (very rough  
assumption made by looking at bits 97-128 of the IPv6 address.
- Figure out how many 6to4 hosts are Windows machines with public IPv4  
addresses.
- See if I can figure out how many of those Windows 6to4 machines are  
behind some kind of filtering that is preventing them from responding.

If anyone has any other bits of data that would be useful for me to  
pull out, please let me know!

I'm currently stuck trying to force azureus to bring up DHT with two  
IPv6 addresses, it currently only seems to want to do one for some  
reason - but I'll figure that out. (Jeroen, do you have any ideas  
there?)

So far (in 24 hours) I've sent data to about 75k IPv4 hosts, and  
received data from 50k.
In 6to4 I have sent data to 27k hosts, and received data from 12k hosts.
Teredo - nothing of note yet, as I'm not advertising my Teredo address  
with DHT.

I think that's a pretty decent sample size. These numbers looked quite  
different last year when I was last talking about this stuff, I think.


Interesting note, uTorrent (a Windows-only client) enables Teredo on  
installation. It has it's own DHT system that doesn't (as far as I am  
aware) interact with azureus. I might look in to seeing if I can trick  
Windows in to bringing up Teredo /and/ 6to4, and do some tests with it.


Cheers.

--
Nathan Ward








From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 01:41:29 2008
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To: Kevin Loch <kloch@kl.net>
cc: v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: 6to4 anycast IP as source address / PTR record
In-Reply-To: <47A14CD6.2040802@kl.net>
Message-ID: <Pine.BSI.4.64.0801301944450.20995@malasada.lava.net>
References: <9F195FE7-E47F-4CC3-B93E-5FA4AAF1088A@dragondata.com>
 <47A14CD6.2040802@kl.net>
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On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Kevin Loch wrote:

> Kevin Day wrote:
>> 
>> Quick poll:
>> 
>> When a 6to4 relay encapsulates v6 traffic and sends it to a 6to4 host over 
>> v4, should the source address be 192.88.99.1 or the relay's v4 unicast 
>> address?
>
> Stateful firewalls would prefer that the return traffic come from
> 192.88.99.1 (assuming they properly handle proto 41 traffic).

The scenario is 6to4 to 6to4.  Both ends would ideally be encapsulating 
traffic directly to the other's IPv4 address.  Relay via 192.88.99.1 need 
not be involved.  In that situation you'd probably want the 6to4 host to 
use it's own IPv4 address as the source if it has to deal with a firewall.

192.88.99.1 is really required when traffic is between a 6to4 host and a 
native IPv6 host as there's really no other way to reach the latter.  The 
latter will punt to it's default gateway and the packets will eventually 
egress from a 6to4 border relay on it's way to the 6to4 host.

So the 'ideal' behaviour of the encapsulator (to deal with firewalls) 
really depends on whether the source address of the IPv6 packet is native 
or a 6to4 address.  A 6to4 host talking to 6to4 can still encap to a relay 
if it wanted to but 1) it's not as efficient, and 2) probably more likely 
to run afoul of firewalls.


Antonio Querubin
whois:  AQ7-ARIN




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 01:58:32 2008
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 08:55:41 +0200 (EET)
From: Pekka Savola <pekkas@netcore.fi>
To: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>
cc: v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: 6to4 anycast IP as source address / PTR record
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On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Kevin Day wrote:
> When a 6to4 relay encapsulates v6 traffic and sends it to a 6to4 host over 
> v4, should the source address be 192.88.99.1 or the relay's v4 unicast 
> address?

There is no requirement either way.

Most relays use 192.88.99.1 as the source address, and..

> My take is that it should use 192.88.99.1. It makes the flow between the 
> relay and the client more symmetric (one flow instead of two, if you're 
> looking purely at layer 3). Stateful firewalls are more likely to do the 
> right thing. Network administrators are going to have a better chance of 
> understanding why 192.88.99.1 is sending loads of traffic to systems on their 
> network, instead of some random unicast IP. This is also how the majority of 
> 6to4 relays that I can see from our network operate.

.. as you write, I've received numerous complaints about weird 6to4 
relay or connectivity problems which were caused by one of the 
following assumptions:

  a) all relay routers use 192.88.99.1 as the source address,
  b) there is no need to accept all proto=41 traffic (forgetting 
6to4-6to4 traffic), or
  c) stateful proto=41 filtering is sufficient (on client-only system 
this most prominently breaks with non-anycast sourcing relays, but 
also on some other scenarios).

> Regardless of which is right, I think the current RFCs are ambiguous on this 
> point, and that it should probably be clarified - even if the clarification 
> is to say that both are acceptable. If any of the original RFC authors are 
> watching, how did you see this working? Or was this intentionally left out as 
> an implementation detail?

I completely agree that this needs to be stated more clearly when/if 
RFC 3056 is rewritten.

It would make a great sense to do that, IMHO, but I'm not sure if 
we're quite far enough yet to have gained sufficient understanding 
what needs to be clarified.  When 3056 is rewritten, it can probably 
be compressed to 10-15 pages at the same time.  If there is strong 
interest on this, I'd be interested in working on the rewrite (but it 
probably doesn't belong to v6ops WG)

>The reason this is coming up right now... Since we've started running 
>a 6to4 relay, we've had a few complaints show up at our abuse@ box 
>asking what this 192.88.99.1 host is on our network, why its WHOIS 
>doesn't make sense, and why it's sending them traffic.

Why doesn't WHOIS make sense?  How should this be improved?  Maybe it 
could say "special anycast" instead of just "special", but it does 
provide a pointer..

NetRange:   192.88.99.0 - 192.88.99.255
CIDR:       192.88.99.0/24
NetName:    IANA-192
NetHandle:  NET-192-88-99-0-1
Parent:     NET-192-0-0-0-0
NetType:    IANA Special Use
Comment:    This block is reserved for special purposes.
Comment:    Please see RFC 3068 for additional information.
Comment:
RegDate:
Updated:    2002-09-16

RIPE DB and RADB whois provide even better information.

> So, does anyone feel strongly one way or another about which address a 6to4 
> relay should use when encapsulating packets? Additionally, is anyone strongly 
> for or against adding a PTR record for 192.88.99.1 that might help document 
> its use better?

I have no problem getting a PTR record added as long as someone has a 
good idea what that should be :-).

I would encourage the relays to use 192.88.99.1 but I have hard time 
seeing how we could mandating it especially on receive-side 
implementations.

When Teredo specification was first submitted, the IESG review came 
back with pushback about the use of the anycast address (as source). 
But that's a different scenario because Teredo is stateful (and 
clients creating stateful state to the anycast address wasn't 
considered a good idea, and the design was substantially changed) and 
6to4 is stateless.

-- 
Pekka Savola                 "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy                    kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings




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From: Francois Le Faucheur IMAP <flefauch@cisco.com>
Subject: Fwd: 6PE-Alt
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:34:13 +0100
To: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
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Hello Vishwas,

There are two documents that relate to transport of IPv6 over an IPv4 =20=

MPLS core:
	* RFC4659 (6VPE): IPv6 VPNS over (say) IPv4 MPLS
	* RFC4798 (6PE): IPv6 over IPv4 MPLS

RFC4798 (6PE) already explicitly discusses the option of using the =20
IPv6 Explicit Null Label:
"This label advertised by the egress 6PE Router with MP-BGP MAY be an =20=

arbitrary label value,
    which identifies an IPv6 routing context or outgoing interface to
    send the packet to, or MAY be the IPv6 Explicit Null Label.
"

 =46rom your description below, it sounds like your document =20
effectively (re)discusses one particular option of the 6PE approach. =20
Is this the case or is there really some new approach that is not =20
already covered in 6PE?

Cheers

Francois


Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Vishwas Manral" <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
> Date: 31 January 2008 06:08:26 GMT+01:00
> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Cc: jeremy.de_clercq@alcatel-lucent.be, dirk@onesparrow.com, =20
> stuart.prevost@bt.com, flefauch@cisco.com
> Subject: 6PE-Alt
>
> Hi folks,
>
> We have written a draft which will possibly replace the 6PE RFC. The
> 6PE RFC uses a label to be sent along with the prefix for each route.
> This label is then used as the "VPN label" (keeping with the
> terminology of BGP MPLS IP VPN RFC). However the only use the label
> serves is to tell the encapsulated packet is an IPv6 packet, as well
> as some additional uses as defined in the RFC.
>
> Because a VPN label is required and its only use is to signal that the
> inside packet is IPv6, we instead elegantly use the "IPv6 Explicit
> NULL label". This label signals the same information. The advantage is
> that labels need not be added with the routes and no such extension is
> required. It also considerably simplifies the Multi AS scenarios.
>
> The draft will soon be visible in the IETF site and is attached here.
>
> Thanks,
> Vishwas and Manoj


=EF=BF=BC

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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
Hello Vishwas,<div><br class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>There=
 are two documents that relate to transport of IPv6 over an IPv4 MPLS =
core:</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>*=A0RFC4659 (6VPE): IPv6 VPNS over (say) IPv4 =
MPLS</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>* RFC4798 (6PE): IPv6 over IPv4 MPLS<br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>RFC4798 (6PE) =
already=A0explicitly=A0discusses the option of using the IPv6 Explicit =
Null Label:</div><div>"This label advertised=A0by the egress 6PE Router =
with MP-BGP MAY be an arbitrary label value,</div><div><div>=A0=A0 which =
identifies an IPv6 routing context or outgoing interface to</div><div>=A0=A0=
 send the packet to, or MAY be the IPv6 Explicit Null =
Label.=A0</div><div>"</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>=46rom your description =
below, it sounds like your document effectively (re)discusses one =
particular option of the 6PE approach. Is this the case or is there =
really some new approach that is not already covered in =
6PE?</div><div><br></div><div>Cheers</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div>Francois</div><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><div><br><div>Begin forwarded =
message:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"5" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font: 18.0px Helvetica; color: =
#000000"><b>From: </b></font><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"5" =
style=3D"font: 18.0px Helvetica">"Vishwas Manral" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:vishwas.ietf@gmail.com">vishwas.ietf@gmail.com</a>&gt;</fon=
t></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"5" =
color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font: 18.0px Helvetica; color: =
#000000"><b>Date: </b></font><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"5" =
style=3D"font: 18.0px Helvetica">31 January 2008 06:08:26 =
GMT+01:00</font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"5" color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font: 18.0px Helvetica; color: =
#000000"><b>To: </b></font><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"5" =
style=3D"font: 18.0px Helvetica"><a =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ops.ietf.org">v6ops@ops.ietf.org</a></font></div><div=
 style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"5" color=3D"#000000" =
style=3D"font: 18.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Cc: </b></font><font =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"5" style=3D"font: 18.0px Helvetica"><a =
href=3D"mailto:jeremy.de_clercq@alcatel-lucent.be">jeremy.de_clercq@alcate=
l-lucent.be</a>, <a =
href=3D"mailto:dirk@onesparrow.com">dirk@onesparrow.com</a>, <a =
href=3D"mailto:stuart.prevost@bt.com">stuart.prevost@bt.com</a>, <a =
href=3D"mailto:flefauch@cisco.com">flefauch@cisco.com</a></font></div><div=
 style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"5" color=3D"#000000" =
style=3D"font: 18.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Subject: =
</b></font><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"5" style=3D"font: 18.0px =
Helvetica"><b>6PE-Alt</b></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: =
14px; "><br></div> <div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Hi folks,</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">We have =
written a draft which will possibly replace the 6PE RFC. The</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">6PE RFC uses a label to be sent along with the =
prefix for each route.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">This label is then used as =
the "VPN label" (keeping with the</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">terminology =
of BGP MPLS IP VPN RFC). However the only use the label</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">serves is to tell the encapsulated packet is an IPv6 =
packet, as well</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">as some additional uses as =
defined in the RFC.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: =
0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; =
"><br></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Because a VPN label is required =
and its only use is to signal that the</div><div style=3D"margin-top: =
0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">inside =
packet is IPv6, we instead elegantly use the "IPv6 Explicit</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">NULL label". This label signals the same =
information. The advantage is</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">that labels =
need not be added with the routes and no such extension is</div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">required. It also considerably simplifies the Multi =
AS scenarios.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">The draft will soon be visible in the IETF site and =
is attached here.</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; ">Thanks,</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; =
margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Vishwas and =
Manoj</div></blockquote><div><br =
class=3D"webkit-block-placeholder"></div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; =
"></div></blockquote></div></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-28-130154450
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	name=draft-manral-idr-mpls-explicit-null-00.txt
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                   =0D
Internet Engineering Task Force                           Vishwas Manral=0D=

Internet-Draft                                               Manoj Dutta=0D=

Intended status: Standards Track                        IP Infusion Inc. =
  =0D
Expires: July 30, 2008                                       =0D
                                                       January 30, 2008=0D=

=0D
=0D
Connecting IPv6 Islands over IPv4 MPLS networks using IPv6 Provider Edge =
=0D
                        Routers (6PE-Alt)=0D
                   draft-manral-idr-mpls-explicit-null-00.txt=0D
=0D
Status of this Memo=0D
=0D
   By submitting this Internet-Draft, each author represents that any=0D
   applicable patent or other IPR claims of which he or she is aware=0D
   have been or will be disclosed, and any of which he or she becomes=0D
   aware will be disclosed, in accordance with Section 6 of BCP 79.=0D
=0D
   Internet-Drafts are working documents of the Internet Engineering=0D
   Task Force (IETF), its areas, and its working groups.  Note that=0D
   other groups may also distribute working documents as Internet-=0D
   Drafts.=0D
=0D
   Internet-Drafts are draft documents valid for a maximum of six months=0D=

   and may be updated, replaced, or obsoleted by other documents at any=0D=

   time.  It is inappropriate to use Internet-Drafts as reference=0D
   material or to cite them other than as "work in progress."=0D
=0D
   The list of current Internet-Drafts can be accessed at=0D
   http://www.ietf.org/ietf/1id-abstracts.txt.=0D
=0D
   The list of Internet-Draft Shadow Directories can be accessed at=0D
   http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html.=0D
=0D
   This Internet-Draft will expire on July 30, 2008.=0D
=0D
Copyright Notice=0D
=0D
   Copyright (C) The IETF Trust (2008).=0D
=0D
Abstract=0D
=0D
   This document provides an alternate mechanism to [6PE] to =
interconnect =0D
   IPv6 routes over MPLS-enabled IPv4clouds. This approach=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
Manral and Dutta          Expires July 30, 2008                 [Page 1]=0D=

 =0D
Internet-Draft                     6PE-Alt                     January =
2008=0D
=0D
=0D
   relies on IPv6 Provider Edge routers (6PE-Alt) which are Dual Stack =
in=0D
   order to connect to IPv6 islands and to the MPLS core which is only=0D=

   required to run IPv4 MPLS.  The 6PE-Alt routers exchange the IPv6=0D
   reachability information transparently over the core using the Multi-=0D=

   Protocol Border Gateway Protocol (MP-BGP) over IPv4.  In doing so,=0D
   the BGP Next Hop field is used to convey the IPv4 address of the =
6PE-Alt=0D
   router so that dynamically established IPv4-signaled MPLS Label=0D
   Switched Paths (LSPs) can be used without explicit tunnel=0D
   configuration. Unlike [6PE] case the labels are not sent with each =
route=0D
   and does not use BGP to tranport labels [RFC3107]. It instead makes =
use=0D
   of the IPv6 Explicit NULL label as the VPN label, which is defined =0D=

   [RFC3032] and updated in [RFC4182]. =0D
=0D
   This document elegantly uses the concept of non overlapping IPv6 =
routes to=0D
   provide BGP MPLS IP VPN functionality. The document can be further =
used for =0D
   provinding the functionality in case of non-overlapping IPv6 routes.=0D=

=0D
   This approach allows a functionality similar to [RFC4659], without =
the =0D
   cumbursome extensions required for the same. With the [RFC3879] IPv6 =
addresses=0D
   are now globally unique (except for Link local). It also reduces the =
number =0D
   of multi AS scenarios.=0D
=0D
=0D
Requirements Language=0D
=0D
   The key words "MUST", "MUST NOT", "REQUIRED", "SHALL", "SHALL NOT",=0D=

   "SHOULD", "SHOULD NOT", "RECOMMENDED", "MAY", and "OPTIONAL" in this=0D=

   document are to be interpreted as described in RFC 2119 [RFC2119].=0D
=0D
=0D
Table of Contents=0D
=0D
   1.  Introduction . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  3=0D=

   2.  Protocol Overview  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .  5=0D=

   3.  Transport over IPv4-signaled LSPs and IPv6 label binding . . .  6=0D=

   4.  Crossing Multiple IPv4 Autonomous Systems  . . . . . . . . . .  8=0D=

   5.  Security Considerations  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 10=0D=

   6.  IANA Considerations  . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11=0D=

   7.  Acknowledgements . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11=0D=

   8.  References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11=0D=

     8.1.  Normative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 11=0D=

     8.2.  Informative References . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 12=0D=

   Authors' Addresses . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 13=0D=

   Intellectual Property and Copyright Statements . . . . . . . . . . 14=0D=

=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
Manral and Dutta          Expires July 30, 2008                 [Page 2]=0D=

 =0D
Internet-Draft                     6PE-Alt                     January =
2008=0D
=0D
=0D
1.  Introduction=0D
=0D
   There are several approaches for providing IPv6 connectivity over an=0D=

   MPLS core network [RFC4029] including (i) requiring that MPLS=0D
   networks support setting up IPv6-signaled Label Switched Paths (LSPs)=0D=

   and establish IPv6 connectivity by using those LSPs, (ii) use=0D
   configured tunneling over IPv4-signaled LSPs, (iv) use [RFC4798] =
which=0D
   provides the same functionality as this draft but with a lot of added =
=0D
   signalling or (iv) use the IPv6 Provider Edge (6PE-Alt) approach =0D
   defined in this document.=0D
=0D
   The 6PE-Alt approach is required as an alternative to the use of =
standard=0D
   tunnels, because it provides a solution for an MPLS environment where=0D=

   all tunnels are established dynamically, thereby addressing=0D
   environments where the effort to configure and maintain explicitly=0D
   configured tunnels is not acceptable. It is a better approach than =0D=

   [RFC4798] which requires the use of additional signalling mechanisms, =
=0D
   and still achieves the same functionality. It requires no additional =0D=

   signalling extensions or overheads.=0D
=0D
   This document specifies operations of the 6PE-Alt approach for=0D
   interconnection of IPv6 islands over an IPv4 MPLS cloud.  The=0D
   approach requires the edge routers that are connected to IPv6 islands=0D=

   to be Dual Stack Multi-Protocol-BGP-speaking routers [RFC4760]=0D
   while the core routers are only required to run IPv4 MPLS.  The=0D
   approach uses MP-BGP over IPv4, relies on identification of the =
6PE-Alt=0D
   routers by their IPv4 address and uses IPv4-signaled MPLS LSPs that=0D=

   don't require any explicit tunnel configuration.=0D
=0D
   Throughout this document, the terminology of [RFC2460] and [RFC4364]=0D=

   is used.=0D
=0D
   In this document an 'IPv6 island' is a network running native IPv6 as=0D=

   per [RFC2460].  A typical example of an IPv6 island would be a=0D
   customer's IPv6 site connected via its IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router=0D=

   to one (or more) Dual Stack Provider Edge router(s) of a Service=0D
   Provider. These IPv6 Provider Edge routers (6PE-Alt) are connected to=0D=

   an IPv4 MPLS core network.=0D
=0D
=0D
       +--------+=0D
       |site A  CE---+  +-----------------+=0D
       +--------+    |  |                 |       +--------+=0D
                    6PE-Alt-+  IPv4 MPLS core +-6PE-Alt--CE site C |=0D
       +--------+    |  |                 |       +--------+=0D
       |site B  CE---+  +-----------------+=0D
       +--------+=0D
=0D
        IPv6 islands          IPv4 cloud       IPv6 island=0D
       <-------------><---------------------><-------------->=0D
=0D
=0D
                                 Figure 1=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
Manral and Dutta          Expires July 30, 2008                 [Page 3]=0D=

 =0D
Internet-Draft                     6PE-Alt                     January =
2008=0D
=0D
=0D
   The interconnection method described in this document typically=0D
   applies to an Internet Service Provider (ISP) that has an IPv4 MPLS=0D=

   network and is familiar with BGP (possibly already offering BGP/MPLS=0D=

   VPN services) and that wants to offer IPv6 services to some of its=0D
   customers.  With progressing time end user devices will have IPv6 =0D
   addresses assigned to them, however the ISP may not (yet) want to =
upgrade=0D
   its network core to IPv6 nor use only IPv6-over-IPv4 tunneling.  With =
the=0D
   6PE-Alt approach described here, the provider only has to upgrade =
some=0D
   Provider Edge (PE) routers to Dual Stack operations so they behave as=0D=

   6PE-Alt routers (and route reflectors if those are used for exchange =
of=0D
   IPv6 reachability among 6PE-Alt routers) while leaving the IPv4 MPLS =
core=0D
   routers untouched.  These 6PE-Alt routers provide connectivity to =
IPv6=0D
   islands.  They may also provide other services simultaneously (IPv4=0D=

   connectivity, IPv4 L3VPN services, L2VPN services, etc.).  Also with=0D=

   the 6PE-Alt approach, no tunnels need to be explicitly configured, =
and no=0D
   IPv4 headers need to be inserted in front of the IPv6 packets between=0D=

   the customer and provider edge.=0D
=0D
   The ISP obtains IPv6 connectivity to its peers and upstreams using=0D
   means outside of the scope of this memo, and its 6PE-Alt routers=0D
   readvertise it over the IPv4 MPLS core with MP-BGP.=0D
=0D
   The interface between the edge router of the IPv6 island (Customer=0D
   Edge (CE) router) and the 6PE-Alt router is a native IPv6 interface =
which=0D
   can be physical or logical.  A routing protocol (IGP or EGP) may run=0D=

   between the CE router and the 6PE-Alt router for the distribution of =
IPv6=0D
   reachability information.  Alternatively, static routes and/or a=0D
   default route may be used on the 6PE-Alt router and the CE router to=0D=

   control reachability.  An IPv6 island may connect to the provider=0D
   network over more than one interface.=0D
=0D
   The 6PE-Alt approach described in this document can be used for =
customers=0D
   that already have an IPv4 service from the network provider and=0D
   additionally require an IPv6 service, as well as for customers that=0D=

   require only IPv6 connectivity.=0D
=0D
   The scenario is also described in [RFC4029].=0D
=0D
   Note that the 6PE-Alt approach specified in this document provides =
global=0D
   IPv6 reachability.  Support of IPv6 VPNs can similarly be given by =
this draft,=0D
   if the IPv6 routes in the VPN's do not overlap. The IP VPN's =
functionality is=0D
   addressed in [RFC4659]. Instead of exchanging a "tunnel label" it =
uses the =0D
   "IPv6 Explicit NULL label", because the signalled label in 6PE did =
not convey =0D
   any more meaning. =0D
=0D
   Deployment of the 6PE-Alt approach over an existing IPv4 MPLS cloud =
does=0D
   not require introduction of new mechanisms in the core (other than=0D
   potentially those described at the end of section 3 for dealing with=0D=

   dynamic MTU discovery).  Configuration and operations of the 6PE-Alt=0D=

   approach has a lot of similarities with the configuration and=0D
   operations of an IPv4 VPN service ([RFC4364]) or IPv6 VPN service=0D
   ([RFC4659]) over an IPv4 MPLS core since they all use MP-BGP to=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
Manral and Dutta          Expires July 30, 2008                 [Page 4]=0D=

 =0D
Internet-Draft                     6PE-Alt                     January =
2008=0D
=0D
=0D
   distribute non-IPv4 reachability information for transport over an=0D
   IPv4 MPLS Core.  However, the configuration and operations of the =
6PE-Alt=0D
   approach is somewhat simpler, since it does not involve all the VPN=0D=

   concepts such as VRFs. =0D
=0D
=0D
2.  Protocol Overview=0D
=0D
   Each IPv6 site is connected to at least one Provider Edge router that=0D=

   is located on the border of the IPv4 MPLS cloud.  We call such a=0D
   router a 6PE-Alt router.  The 6PE-Alt router MUST be dual stack IPv4 =
and=0D
   IPv6.  The 6PE-Alt router MUST be configured with at least one IPv4=0D=

   address on the IPv4 side and at least one IPv6 address on the IPv6=0D
   side.  The configured IPv4 address needs to be routable in the IPv4=0D=

   cloud, and there needs to be a label bound via an IPv4 label=0D
   distribution protocol to this IPv4 route.=0D
=0D
   As a result of this, every considered 6PE-Alt router knows which MPLS=0D=

   label to use to send packets to any other 6PE-Alt router.  Note that =
an=0D
   MPLS network offering BGP/MPLS IP VPN services already fulfills these=0D=

   requirements.=0D
=0D
   No extra routes need to be injected in the IPv4 cloud.=0D
=0D
   We call the 6PE-Alt router receiving IPv6 packets from an IPv6 site =
an=0D
   Ingress 6PE-Alt router (relative to these IPv6 packets).  We call a =
6PE-Alt=0D
   router forwarding IPv6 packets to an IPv6 site an Egress 6PE-Alt =
router=0D
   (relative to these IPv6 packets).=0D
=0D
   Interconnecting IPv6 islands over an IPv4 MPLS cloud takes place=0D
   through the following steps:=0D
=0D
   1.  Exchange IPv6 reachability information among 6PE-Alt routers with =
MP-=0D
       BGP [RFC4760]:=0D
=0D
       The 6PE-Alt routers MUST exchange the IPv6 prefixes over MP-BGP=0D=

       sessions as per [RFC4760] running over IPv4.  The MP-BGP Address=0D=

       Family Identifier (AFI) used MUST be IPv6 (value 2).  In doing=0D
       so, the 6PE-Alt routers convey their IPv4 address as the BGP Next =
Hop=0D
       for the advertised IPv6 prefixes.  The IPv4 address of the egress=0D=

       6PE-Alt router MUST be encoded as an IPv4-mapped IPv6 address in =
the=0D
       BGP Next Hop field.  This encoding is consistent with the=0D
       definition of an IPv4-mapped IPv6 address in [RFC3513] as an=0D
       "address type used to represent the address of IPv4 nodes as IPv6=0D=

       addresses".  However unline [6PE], the 6PE-Alt does not need to =
bind =0D
       a label to the IPv6 prefix as per [RFC3107].  The Subsequence =
Address Family=0D
       Identifier (SAFI) used in MP-BGP MUST be the same as a regular =
IPv6 route.=0D
       The rationale for this label is discussed in section 3.=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
Manral and Dutta          Expires July 30, 2008                 [Page 5]=0D=

 =0D
Internet-Draft                     6PE-Alt                     January =
2008=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
   2.  Transport IPv6 packets from Ingress 6PE-Alt router to Egress =
6PE-Alt=0D
       router over IPv4-signaled LSPs:=0D
=0D
       The Ingress 6PE-Alt router MUST forward IPv6 data over the IPv4-=0D=

       signaled LSP towards the Egress 6PE-Alt router identified by the =
IPv4=0D
       address advertised in the IPv4-mapped IPv6 address of the BGP=0D
       Next Hop for the corresponding IPv6 prefix. The router should =
first =0D
       PUSH the "IPv6 Explicit NULL" label, as the VPN label. The tunnel=0D=

       label then gets pushed on the MPLS label stack, and the packet is=0D=

       forwarded to the tunnel's next hop.=0D
=0D
=0D
   As required by the BGP specification [RFC4271], PE routers form a=0D
   full peering mesh unless Route Reflectors are used.=0D
=0D
=0D
3.  Transport over IPv4-signaled LSPs and IPv6 label binding=0D
=0D
   In this approach, the IPv4-mapped IPv6 addresses allow a 6PE-Alt =
router=0D
   that has to forward an IPv6 packet to automatically determine the=0D
   IPv4-signaled LSP to use for a particular IPv6 destination by looking=0D=

   at the MP-BGP routing information.=0D
=0D
   The IPv4-signaled LSPs can be established using any existing=0D
   technique for label setup [RFC3031] (LDP [RFC5036], RSVP-TE =
[RFC3209]).=0D
=0D
   To ensure interoperability among systems that implement the 6PE-Alt=0D=

   approach described in this document, all such systems MUST support=0D
   tunneling using IPv4-signaled MPLS LSPs established by LDP [RFC3036].=0D=

=0D
   When tunneling IPv6 packets over the IPv4 MPLS backbone, rather than=0D=

   successively prepend an IPv4 header and then perform label imposition=0D=

   based on the IPv4 header, the ingress 6PE-Alt Router MUST directly=0D
   perform label imposition of the IPv6 header without prepending any=0D
   IPv4 header.  The tunnel label imposed MUST correspond to the IPv4-=0D=

   signaled LSP starting on the ingress 6PE-Alt Router and ending on the=0D=

   egress 6PE-Alt Router.=0D
=0D
   While this approach could theoretically operate in some situations=0D
   using a single level of labels, there are significant advantages in=0D=

   using a second level of labels which are bound to IPv6 prefixes via=0D=

   MP-BGP advertisements in accordance with [RFC3107].=0D
=0D
   For instance, use of a second level label allows Penultimate Hop=0D
   Popping (PHP) on the IPv4 Label Switch Router (LSR) upstream of the=0D=

   egress 6PE-Alt router without any IPv6 capabilities/upgrade on the=0D
   penultimate router; this is because it still transmits MPLS packets=0D=

   even after the PHP (instead of having to transmit IPv6 packets and=0D
   encapsulate them appropriately).=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
Manral and Dutta          Expires July 30, 2008                 [Page 6]=0D=

 =0D
Internet-Draft                     6PE-Alt                     January =
2008=0D
=0D
=0D
   Also, an existing IPv4-signaled LSP which is using "IPv4 Explicit=0D
   NULL label" over the last hop (say because that LSP is already used=0D=

   to transport IPv4 traffic with the Pipe Diff-Serv Tunneling Model as=0D=

   defined in [RFC3270]) could not be used to carry IPv6 with a single=0D=

   label since the "IPv4 Explicit NULL label" can not be used to carry=0D=

   native IPv6 traffic (see [RFC3032]), while it could be used to carry=0D=

   labeled IPv6 traffic (see [RFC4182]).=0D
=0D
   This is why a second label MUST be used with the 6PE-Alt approach.=0D
=0D
   The label MUST be the IPv6 Explicit Null Label. =0D
=0D
   [RFC2460] requires that every link in the IPv6 Internet have an MTU=0D=

   of 1280 octets or larger.  Therefore, on MPLS links that are used for=0D=

   transport of IPv6 as per the 6PE-Alt approach and that do not support=0D=

   link-specific fragmentation and reassembly, the MTU must be=0D
   configured to at least 1280 octets plus the encapsulation overhead.=0D=

=0D
   Some IPv6 hosts might be sending packets larger than the MTU=0D
   available in the IPv4 MPLS core and rely on Path MTU discovery to=0D
   learn about those links.  To simplify MTU discovery operations, one=0D=

   option is for the network administrator to engineer the MTU on the=0D
   core facing interfaces of the ingress 6PE-Alt, consistent with the =
core=0D
   MTU, so that ICMP 'Packet Too Big' messages can be sent back by the=0D=

   ingress 6PE-Alt without the corresponding packets ever entering the =
MPLS=0D
   core.  Otherwise, routers in the IPv4 MPLS network have the option to=0D=

   generate an ICMP "Packet Too Big" message using mechanisms as=0D
   described in section 2.3.2 "Tunneling Private Addresses through a=0D
   Public Backbone" of [RFC3032].=0D
=0D
   In that case, note that, should a core router with an outgoing link=0D=

   with a MTU smaller than 1280 receive an encapsulated IPv6 packet=0D
   larger than 1280, then the mechanisms of [RFC3032] may result in the=0D=

   "Packet Too Big" message never reaching the sender.  This is because,=0D=

   according to [RFC2463], the core router will build an ICMP "Packet=0D
   Too Big" message filled with the invoking packet up to 1280 bytes and=0D=

   when forwarding downstream towards the egress PE as per [RFC3032],=0D
   the MTU of the outgoing link will cause the packet to be dropped.=0D
   This may cause significant operational problems; the originator of=0D
   the packets will notice that his data is not getting through, without=0D=

   knowing why and where they are discarded.  This issue would only=0D
   occur if the above recommendation (to configure MTU on MPLS links of=0D=

   at least 1280 octets plus encapsulation overhead) is not adhered to=0D=

=0D
=0D
=0D
Manral and Dutta          Expires July 30, 2008                 [Page 7]=0D=

 =0D
Internet-Draft                     6PE-Alt                     January =
2008=0D
=0D
=0D
   (perhaps by misconfiguration).=0D
=0D
=0D
4.  Crossing Multiple IPv4 Autonomous Systems=0D
=0D
   This section discusses the case where two IPv6 islands are connected=0D=

   to different Autonomous Systems. No extra signalling is done, however =
the=0D
   Multiple AS scenario requires no change in the BGP IPv6 code. =0D
=0D
   Like in the case of multi-AS backbone operations for IPv4 VPNs=0D
   described in section 10 of [RFC4364], three main approaches can be=0D
   distinguished:=0D
=0D
   a.  EBGP redistribution of IPv6 routes from AS to neighboring AS=0D
=0D
       This approach is the equivalent for exchange of IPv6 routes to=0D
       procedure (a) described in section 10 of [RFC4364] for the=0D
       exchange of VPN-IPv4 routes.=0D
=0D
       In this approach, the 6PE-Alt routers use IBGP (according to=0D
       [RFC2545] and [RFC3107] and as described in this document for the=0D=

       single-AS situation) to redistribute IPv6 routes either=0D
       to an Autonomous System Border Router (ASBR) 6PE-Alt router, or =
to a=0D
       route reflector of which an ASBR 6PE-Alt router is a client.  The=0D=

       ASBR then uses EBGP to redistribute the IPv6 routes=0D
       to an ASBR in another AS, which in turn distributes them to the=0D=

       6PE-Alt routers in that AS as described earlier in this=0D
       specification, or perhaps to another ASBR which in turn=0D
       distributes them etc.=0D
=0D
       There may be one, or multiple, ASBR interconnection(s) across any=0D=

       two ASes.  IPv6 needs to be activated on the inter-ASBR links and=0D=

       each ASBR 6PE-Alt router has at least one IPv6 address on the=0D
       interface to that link.=0D
=0D
       No inter-AS LSPs are used.  There is effectively a separate mesh=0D=

       of LSPs across the 6PE-Alt routers within each AS.=0D
=0D
       In this approach, the ASBR exchanging IPv6 routes may peer over=0D=

       IPv6 or over IPv4.  The exchange of IPv6 routes MUST be carried=0D=

       out as per [RFC2545].=0D
=0D
       Note that the peering ASBR in the neighboring AS to which the=0D
       IPv6 routes were distributed with EBGP, should in its turn=0D
       redistribute these routes to the 6PE-Alts in its AS using IBGP =
and=0D
       encoding its own IPv4 address as the IPv4-mapped IPv6 BGP Next=0D
       Hop.=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
Manral and Dutta          Expires July 30, 2008                 [Page 8]=0D=

 =0D
Internet-Draft                     6PE-Alt                     January =
2008=0D
=0D
=0D
    b.  Multihop EBGP redistribution of IPv6 routes between=0D
       source and destination PE routers, with EBGP redistribution of =0D=

       IPv4 routes from AS to neighboring AS for the PE's.=0D
=0D
       This approach is the equivalent for exchange of IPv6 routes to=0D
       procedure (c) described in section 10 of [RFC4364] for exchange=0D=

       of VPN- IPv4 routes.=0D
=0D
       In this approach, IPv6 routes are neither maintained nor=0D
       distributed by the ASBR routers.  The ASBR routers need not be=0D
       dual stack and may be IPv4/MPLS-only routers.  An ASBR needs to=0D=

       maintain labeled IPv4 /32 routes to the 6PE-Alt routers within =
its=0D
       AS.  It uses EBGP to distribute these routes to other ASes.=0D
       ASBRs in any transit ASes will also have to use EBGP to pass=0D
       along the labeled IPv4 /32 routes.  This results in the creation=0D=

       of an IPv4 label switched path from the ingress 6PE-Alt router to =
the=0D
       egress 6PE-Alt router.  Now 6PE-Alt routers in different ASes can=0D=

       establish multi-hop EBGP connections to each other over IPv4, and=0D=

       can exchange labeled IPv6 routes (with an IPv4-mapped IPv6 BGP=0D
       Next Hop) over those connections.=0D
=0D
       IPv6 need not be activated on the inter-ASBR links.=0D
=0D
       The considerations described for procedure (c) in section 10 of=0D=

       [RFC4364] with respect to possible use of multi-hop EBGP=0D
       connections via route-reflectors in different ASes, as well as=0D
       with respect to the use of a third label in case the IPv4 /32=0D
       routes for the PE routers are NOT made known to the P routers,=0D
       apply equally to this approach for IPv6.=0D
=0D
Manral and Dutta          Expires July 30, 2008                 [Page 9]=0D=

 =0D
Internet-Draft                     6PE-Alt                     January =
2008=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
       This approach requires that there be IPv4 label switched paths=0D
       established across the ASes leading form a packet's ingress =
6PE-Alt=0D
       router to its egress 6PE-Alt router.  Hence, the considerations=0D=

       described for procedure (c) in section 10 of [RFC4364] with=0D
       respect to LSPs spanning multiple ASes apply equally to this=0D
       approach for IPv6.=0D
=0D
       Note also that the exchange of IPv6 routes can only start after=0D=

       BGP has created IPv4 connectivity between the ASes.=0D
=0D
=0D
5.  Security Considerations=0D
=0D
   The extensions defined in this document allow BGP to propagate=0D
   reachability information about IPv6 routes over an MPLS IPv4 core=0D
   network.  As such, no new security issues are raised beyond those=0D
   that already exist in BGP-4 and use of MP-BGP for IPv6.=0D
=0D
   The security features of BGP and corresponding security policy=0D
   defined in the ISP domain are applicable.=0D
=0D
   For the inter-AS distribution of IPv6 routes according to case (a) of=0D=

   section 4 of this document, no new security issues are raised beyond=0D=

   those that already exist in the use of EBGP for IPv6 [RFC2545].=0D
=0D
   For the inter-AS distribution of IPv6 routes according to case (b)=0D
   and (c) of section 4 of this document, the procedures require that=0D
   there be label switched paths established across the AS boundaries.=0D=

   Hence the appropriate trust relationships must exist between and=0D
   among the set of ASes along the path.  =0D
=0D
   Note that for the inter-AS distribution of IPv6 routes according to=0D=

   case (c) of section 4 of this document, label spoofing may be more=0D
   difficult to prevent.  Indeed, the MPLS label distributed with the=0D
   IPv6 routes via multi-hop EBGP is directly sent from the egress =
6PE-Alt=0D
   to ingress 6PE-Alts in an other AS (or through route reflectors).  =
This=0D
   label is advertised transparently through the AS boundaries.  When=0D
   the egress 6PE-Alt that sent the labeled IPv6 routes receives a data=0D=

   packet that has this particular label on top of its stack, it may not=0D=

   be able to verify whether the label was pushed on the stack by an=0D
   ingress 6PE-Alt that is allowed to do so.  As such one AS may be=0D
   vulnerable to label spoofing in a different AS.  The same issue=0D
   equally applies to the option (c) of section 10 of [RFC4364].  Just=0D=

   like it is the case for [RFC4364], addressing this particular=0D
   security issue is for further study.=0D
=0D
=0D
Manral and Dutta          Expires July 30, 2008                [Page 10]=0D=

 =0D
Internet-Draft                     6PE-Alt                     January =
2008=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
6.  IANA Considerations=0D
=0D
   This document has no actions for IANA.=0D
=0D
=0D
7.  Acknowledgements=0D
=0D
   Most of the text in this document is borrowed from 6PE [RFC4798]. The=0D=

   authors of the document are acknowledgement.=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
8.  References=0D
=0D
8.1.  Normative References=0D
=0D
   [RFC2119]  Bradner, S., "Key words for use in RFCs to Indicate=0D
              Requirement Levels", BCP 14, RFC 2119, March 1997.=0D
=0D
   [RFC2460]  Deering, S. and R. Hinden, "Internet Protocol, Version 6=0D=

              (IPv6) Specification", RFC 2460, December 1998.=0D
=0D
   [RFC2545]  Marques, P. and F. Dupont, "Use of BGP-4 Multiprotocol=0D
              Extensions for IPv6 Inter-Domain Routing", RFC 2545,=0D
              March 1999.=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
Manral and Dutta          Expires July 30, 2008                [Page 11]=0D=

 =0D
Internet-Draft                     6PE-Alt                     January =
2008=0D
=0D
=0D
   [RFC4760]=0D
              Bates, T., Rekhter, Y., Chandra, R., and D. Katz,=0D
              "Multiprotocol Extensions for BGP-4",=0D
               draft-ietf-idr-RFC4760-10.txt, work in progress.=0D
=0D
   [RFC3032]  Rosen, E., Tappan, D., Fedorkow, G., Rekhter, Y.,=0D
              Farinacci, D., Li, T., and A. Conta, "MPLS Label Stack=0D
              Encoding", RFC 3032, January 2001.=0D
=0D
   [RFC3036]  Andersson, L., Doolan, P., Feldman, N., Fredette, A., and=0D=

              B. Thomas, "LDP Specification", RFC 3036, January 2001.=0D
=0D
   [RFC3107]  Rekhter, Y. and E. Rosen, "Carrying Label Information in=0D=

              BGP-4", RFC 3107, May 2001.=0D
=0D
   [RFC3513]  Hinden, R. and S. Deering, "Internet Protocol Version 6=0D
              (IPv6) Addressing Architecture", RFC 3513, April 2003.=0D
=0D
8.2.  Informative References=0D
=0D
   [RFC2463]  Conta, A. and S. Deering, "Internet Control Message=0D
              Protocol (ICMPv6) for the Internet Protocol Version 6=0D
              (IPv6) Specification", RFC 2463, December 1998.=0D
=0D
   [RFC3031]  Rosen, E., Viswanathan, A., and R. Callon, "Multiprotocol=0D=

              Label Switching Architecture", RFC 3031, January 2001.=0D
=0D
   [RFC3270]  Le Faucheur, F., Wu, L., Davie, B., Davari, S., Vaananen,=0D=

              P., Krishnan, R., Cheval, P., and J. Heinanen, "Multi-=0D
              Protocol Label Switching (MPLS) Support of Differentiated=0D=

              Services", RFC 3270, May 2002.=0D
=0D
   [RFC4029]  Lind, M., Ksinant, V., Park, S., Baudot, A., and P.=0D
              Savola, "Scenarios and Analysis for Introducing IPv6 into=0D=

              ISP Networks", RFC 4029, March 2005.=0D
=0D
   [RFC4182]  Rosen, E., "Removing a Restriction on the use of MPLS=0D
              Explicit NULL", RFC 4182, September 2005.=0D
=0D
   [RFC4271]  Rekhter, Y., Li, T., and S. Hares, "A Border Gateway=0D
              Protocol 4 (BGP-4)", RFC 4271, January 2006.=0D
=0D
   [RFC4364]  Rosen, E. and Y. Rekhter, "BGP/MPLS IP Virtual Private=0D
              Networks (VPNs)", RFC 4364, February 2006.=0D
=0D
   [RFC4659]  De Clercq, J., Ooms, D., Carugi, M., and F. Le Faucheur,=0D=

              "BGP-MPLS IP Virtual Private Network (VPN) Extension for=0D=

              IPv6 VPN", RFC 4659, September 2006.=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
Manral and Dutta          Expires July 30, 2008                [Page 12]=0D=

 =0D
Internet-Draft                     6PE-Alt                     January =
2008=0D
=0D
=0D
Authors' Addresses=0D
=0D
  Vishwas Manral=0D
  IP Infusion Inc.,=0D
  Bamankhola,=0D
  Bansgali,=0D
  Almora,=0D
  Uttaranchal - 263601=0D
  India=0D
=0D
  Manoj Dutta=0D
  IP Infusion Inc.,=0D
  125, S. Market Street,=0D
  San Jose, - 95112=0D
  CA =0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
Manral and Dutta          Expires July 30, 2008                [Page 13]=0D=

 =0D
Internet-Draft                     6PE-Alt                     January =
2008=0D
=0D
=0D
Full Copyright Statement=0D
=0D
   Copyright (C) The IETF Trust (2008).=0D
=0D
   This document is subject to the rights, licenses and restrictions=0D
   contained in BCP 78, and except as set forth therein, the authors=0D
   retain all their rights.=0D
=0D
   This document and the information contained herein are provided on an=0D=

   "AS IS" basis and THE CONTRIBUTOR, THE ORGANIZATION HE/SHE REPRESENTS=0D=

   OR IS SPONSORED BY (IF ANY), THE INTERNET SOCIETY, THE IETF TRUST AND=0D=

   THE INTERNET ENGINEERING TASK FORCE DISCLAIM ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS=0D=

   OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO ANY WARRANTY THAT THE USE OF=0D=

   THE INFORMATION HEREIN WILL NOT INFRINGE ANY RIGHTS OR ANY IMPLIED=0D
   WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.=0D
=0D
=0D
Intellectual Property=0D
=0D
   The IETF takes no position regarding the validity or scope of any=0D
   Intellectual Property Rights or other rights that might be claimed to=0D=

   pertain to the implementation or use of the technology described in=0D=

   this document or the extent to which any license under such rights=0D
   might or might not be available; nor does it represent that it has=0D
   made any independent effort to identify any such rights.  Information=0D=

   on the procedures with respect to rights in RFC documents can be=0D
   found in BCP 78 and BCP 79.=0D
=0D
   Copies of IPR disclosures made to the IETF Secretariat and any=0D
   assurances of licenses to be made available, or the result of an=0D
   attempt made to obtain a general license or permission for the use of=0D=

   such proprietary rights by implementers or users of this=0D
   specification can be obtained from the IETF on-line IPR repository at=0D=

   http://www.ietf.org/ipr.=0D
=0D
   The IETF invites any interested party to bring to its attention any=0D=

   copyrights, patents or patent applications, or other proprietary=0D
   rights that may cover technology that may be required to implement=0D
   this standard.  Please address the information to the IETF at=0D
   ietf-ipr@ietf.org.=0D
=0D
=0D
Acknowledgment=0D
=0D
   Funding for the RFC Editor function is provided by the IETF=0D
   Administrative Support Activity (IASA).=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
=0D
Manral and Dutta          Expires July 30, 2008                [Page 14]=0D=

=20=

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From iicg@bobcatgraphics.com Thu Jan 31 05:58:55 2008
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To: <v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Subject: Doctor Approved And Recommended
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 2008 11:58:52 +0100
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Larger and Larger
http://wooglespi.com




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 06:28:06 2008
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Cc: v6ops Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>,
        marcelo bagnulo <marcelo@it.uc3m.es>
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From: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
To: Iljitsch van Beijnum <iljitsch@muada.com>
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Subject: Re: Old / new NAT-PT coexistance?
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 12:25:45 +0100
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On 30 jan 2008, at 19:13, Iljitsch van Beijnum wrote:

> The new style that Brian and I are working on is going to require  
> changes on the IPv6 side, which won't be made over night: looking up  
> A records by the hosts themselves rather than having a DNS ALG  
> generate synthetic AAAA records for IPv4-only destinations.

> The problem is that you would have to provision different DNS  
> resolvers for hosts that are IPv6-only and do not support the new  
> style NAT-PT versus the ones that do and dual stack hosts. This  
> could be a problem. Solution: have hosts that do DNS lookups over  
> IPv6 transport indicate that they support new style NAT-PT and don't  
> need the synthetic AAAA records through EDNS0.

Another option would be for the server to simply always generate the  
synthetic AAAA records as per existing NAT-PT, but then add an EDNS0  
option that identifies the synthetic addresses. Hosts that are aware  
of this then know they're really talking to IPv4 destinations and  
could present ::ffff:x.x.x.x addresses (or x.x.x.x addresses) to  
applications so applications can adjust their behavior to what's  
needed for IPv4 operation.

This also nicely avoids the whole issue of how to configure/discover  
the /96 prefix used by the translator. The downside is that there will  
be significant old style NAT-PT and there is still the chance of  
leakage of the synthetic AAAA records as long as DNS servers don't  
implement the new EDNS0 option and filter out these records.

Thoughts?




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 07:06:09 2008
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 07:03:10 -0500
To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
From: John Curran <jcurran@mail.com>
Subject: Re: draft-jcurran-v6transitionplan-02.txt
Cc: v6ops Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>,
 Kurt Erik Lindqvist <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>,
 Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, Lars Eggert <lars.eggert@nokia.com>,
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At 4:37 PM -0800 1/30/08, Fred Baker wrote:
>Thanks for this note, John. May I humbly request that, if you update it further, that you tag it draft-jcurran-v6ops-*? I tend to notice those a lot more easily than I do documents that don't reference the working group.

I'm more than willing to tag it in that manner.   I intentionally did
not originally, as it would have been presumptuous on my part to
assume that v6ops wanted to be associated with it in any manner...

>One question. I agree that the roll-out should be phased, and that providers world-wide need to take matters seriously, which I think is the high-order bit of your message. However, you provide very concrete dates on which cut-over events should take place, based on data which is the best available but is none-the-less somewhat approximate. We estimate that the IANA will hand out the last IPv4 prefix in the neighborhood of the end of 2009; one could easily imagine the actual event happening either a bit earlier or a bit later, or some RIR policy changing that makes it a lot earlier or a lot later. For example, Geoff suggests that the ISPs will simply start buying and selling addresses out of their allocations. If they are contemplating doing that, given that the RIRs allocate them based on a detailed assertion that the organization allocated to really needs more addresses to run its business, I should think that the RIRs could get pretty fussy about that analysis.
>
>So I wonder if the dates should be more approximate, or if operator fora such as NANOG or RIPE should be left room to diddle with them somehow.

Here's my take...   The exact dates that the IANA or the RIR's is
going to start turning down requests for lack of availability simply
does not matter.   We're not going to see an IPv4 "Free Pool"
countdown clock on the bottom of CNN for final 6 months, and
even now the vast majority of Internet connected organizations
have no idea what Geoff's numbers say today.

However, we're going to need to change global expectations on
what's required now, during transition, and post-transition to be
"connected" to the Internet.  Since the requirements change by
the particular phase, and we need to educating a global audience
about these phases, with materials in dozens of languages and in
nearly every fora on the planet, being able to declare the official
start and end of each phase (and not having these dates move
about without great fanfare) is actually a necessary prerequisite
for having a consistent global message and effective results.

So, the ID contains hard dates, since they maximize our chance
(however great or small) of overall success.

/John






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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 09:32:00 2008
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 06:25:46 -0800
From: "Vishwas Manral" <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "Francois Le Faucheur IMAP" <flefauch@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: 6PE-Alt
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, "Jeremy De Clercq" <jeremy.de_clercq@alcatel-lucent.be>, 
	"Ooms Dirk" <dirk@onesparrow.com>, stuart.prevost@bt.com
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Hi Francois,

The document I have written does not use signaling and does not define
a new AFI/SAFI functionality to achieve the 6PE. The document you have
defined allows the use of signaling the IPv6 Explicit NULL label,
which is different.There is no need to signal an IPv6 Explicit NULL
label, the meaning is already implied in the label.

The difference is obvious, we get the same functionality without
adding any new signaling mechanism. I am well aware of both the RFC's
and if you read the draft carefully, I have mentioned both the RFC's
in the draft.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Jan 31, 2008 2:34 AM, Francois Le Faucheur IMAP <flefauch@cisco.com> wrote:
>  Hello Vishwas,
>
> There are two documents that relate to transport of IPv6 over an IPv4 MPLS
> core:
>  * RFC4659 (6VPE): IPv6 VPNS over (say) IPv4 MPLS
>  * RFC4798 (6PE): IPv6 over IPv4 MPLS
>
> RFC4798 (6PE) already explicitly discusses the option of using the IPv6
> Explicit Null Label:
> "This label advertised by the egress 6PE Router with MP-BGP MAY be an
> arbitrary label value,
>    which identifies an IPv6 routing context or outgoing interface to
>    send the packet to, or MAY be the IPv6 Explicit Null Label.
> "
>
> From your description below, it sounds like your document effectively
> (re)discusses one particular option of the 6PE approach. Is this the case or
> is there really some new approach that is not already covered in 6PE?
>
> Cheers
>
> Francois
>
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
> From: "Vishwas Manral" <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
> Date: 31 January 2008 06:08:26 GMT+01:00
> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Cc: jeremy.de_clercq@alcatel-lucent.be, dirk@onesparrow.com,
> stuart.prevost@bt.com, flefauch@cisco.com
> Subject: 6PE-Alt
>
>
>
> Hi folks,
>
> We have written a draft which will possibly replace the 6PE RFC. The
> 6PE RFC uses a label to be sent along with the prefix for each route.
> This label is then used as the "VPN label" (keeping with the
> terminology of BGP MPLS IP VPN RFC). However the only use the label
> serves is to tell the encapsulated packet is an IPv6 packet, as well
> as some additional uses as defined in the RFC.
>
> Because a VPN label is required and its only use is to signal that the
> inside packet is IPv6, we instead elegantly use the "IPv6 Explicit
> NULL label". This label signals the same information. The advantage is
> that labels need not be added with the routes and no such extension is
> required. It also considerably simplifies the Multi AS scenarios.
>
> The draft will soon be visible in the IETF site and is attached here.
>
> Thanks,
> Vishwas and Manoj
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 09:34:29 2008
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 06:33:21 -0800
From: "Vishwas Manral" <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "Francois Le Faucheur IMAP" <flefauch@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: 6PE-Alt
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, "Jeremy De Clercq" <jeremy.de_clercq@alcatel-lucent.be>, 
	"Ooms Dirk" <dirk@onesparrow.com>, stuart.prevost@bt.com
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Hi Francois,

To add to what you said. Yes with explicit NULL label use the
dataplane will be just the same, as when in the 6PE draft the Explicit
NULL label is signalled. So the new draft gives the exact same
functionality as 6PE with no extra signaling overhead.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Jan 31, 2008 6:25 AM, Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Francois,
>
> The document I have written does not use signaling and does not define
> a new AFI/SAFI functionality to achieve the 6PE. The document you have
> defined allows the use of signaling the IPv6 Explicit NULL label,
> which is different.There is no need to signal an IPv6 Explicit NULL
> label, the meaning is already implied in the label.
>
> The difference is obvious, we get the same functionality without
> adding any new signaling mechanism. I am well aware of both the RFC's
> and if you read the draft carefully, I have mentioned both the RFC's
> in the draft.
>
> Thanks,
> Vishwas
>
>
> On Jan 31, 2008 2:34 AM, Francois Le Faucheur IMAP <flefauch@cisco.com> wrote:
> >  Hello Vishwas,
> >
> > There are two documents that relate to transport of IPv6 over an IPv4 MPLS
> > core:
> >  * RFC4659 (6VPE): IPv6 VPNS over (say) IPv4 MPLS
> >  * RFC4798 (6PE): IPv6 over IPv4 MPLS
> >
> > RFC4798 (6PE) already explicitly discusses the option of using the IPv6
> > Explicit Null Label:
> > "This label advertised by the egress 6PE Router with MP-BGP MAY be an
> > arbitrary label value,
> >    which identifies an IPv6 routing context or outgoing interface to
> >    send the packet to, or MAY be the IPv6 Explicit Null Label.
> > "
> >
> > From your description below, it sounds like your document effectively
> > (re)discusses one particular option of the 6PE approach. Is this the case or
> > is there really some new approach that is not already covered in 6PE?
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > Francois
> >
> >
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: "Vishwas Manral" <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
> > Date: 31 January 2008 06:08:26 GMT+01:00
> > To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > Cc: jeremy.de_clercq@alcatel-lucent.be, dirk@onesparrow.com,
> > stuart.prevost@bt.com, flefauch@cisco.com
> > Subject: 6PE-Alt
> >
> >
> >
> > Hi folks,
> >
> > We have written a draft which will possibly replace the 6PE RFC. The
> > 6PE RFC uses a label to be sent along with the prefix for each route.
> > This label is then used as the "VPN label" (keeping with the
> > terminology of BGP MPLS IP VPN RFC). However the only use the label
> > serves is to tell the encapsulated packet is an IPv6 packet, as well
> > as some additional uses as defined in the RFC.
> >
> > Because a VPN label is required and its only use is to signal that the
> > inside packet is IPv6, we instead elegantly use the "IPv6 Explicit
> > NULL label". This label signals the same information. The advantage is
> > that labels need not be added with the routes and no such extension is
> > required. It also considerably simplifies the Multi AS scenarios.
> >
> > The draft will soon be visible in the IETF site and is attached here.
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Vishwas and Manoj
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 09:51:53 2008
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To: Christian Huitema <huitema@windows.microsoft.com>
CC: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, 
 v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>	<67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com>	<479CD34E.7010403@free.fr>	<A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com>	<479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <479D9E65.5090808@free.fr> <87ir1ee03n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <479DABCB.7030705@free.fr> <5F00FC98-D878-4305-838C-3D9A8B5D7E5A@muada.com> <479DDD8C.3010707@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <479DF86F.9060904@free.fr> <832C204A-0CBA-4147-ADFF-40E4AB6070AA@dragondata.com> <AFE0AC8DCDE68842B94E8EC69D5F21D639F1F14CB1@NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <479EEBB4.6080002@free.fr> <AFE0AC8DCDE68842B94E8EC69D5F21D639F1F150C8@NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com>
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Christian Huitema wrote :
>> In the different view, letting applications to have only one socket
>>  interface is *simpler* than obliging them to know whether the IP 
>> layer works in IPv4 or IPv6.
> 
Right. Let's continue to clarify the issue.


> Most "simple programming" is achieved using high level constructs 
> such as RPC or Web interfaces. The fraction of programs written on 
> the "socket" API tend to be written by sophisticated developers who 
> like "bare to the metal" constructs.
In my view, that's indeed appropriate.

But IMO conformance of dual stacks to RFC 2553 sec 3.7 doesn't make them
less "bare to the metal" (it just says that a v4 destination has to be 
handled by the v4 stack if there is one operational, even if this v4 
destination is presented in 128 bit format.)

> But even if a single listening was a goal,
In my reading of RFC 2553-3.7, this *was* a goal, and a good one.

> it can be achieved without messing with address format,
For an IPv6-only application, listening for an address without being 
concerned whether the remote host is IPv4 only, as RFC 2553-3.7 permits, 
isn't IMO "messing with address formats".

On the opposite, obliging an IPv6-only application to handle in any way 
the v4 Address Family is IMU mixing levels.
Permitting to express a 32 bit address in a 128 bit format is after all 
a simple idea.

> simply by avoiding early binding of the socket to a specific address 
> type, and then using specific addresses in their native formats 
> whenever necessary.
Yes it works but, again, these applications can hardly be considered as 
IPv6-only.(To be *really IPv6-only*, applications do need RFC 2553-3.7 
conformance of dual stacks.)
Note that applications that have this behavior, and with it work on dual 
stacks that don't conform to 2553-3.7, can keep this behavior when their 
stack is patched to conform.

In summary, dual stacks that don't conform to RFC2553-3.7 should be 
corrected :
  1. No adverse effect is predictible, on any existing application.

  2. Some weird phenomena as observed recently would no longer appear.

  3. The bottom line will be that:
- Server applications that have IPv4 sockets, or that have unspecified
address family sockets, will receive IPv4 addresses on them.
- Server applications that only have IPv6 sockets will receive IPv4
addresses in mapped format (without having to recognize them).
- Client applications that, on IPv6 sockets to dual stacks, use remote 
host addresses that happen to be IPv4 addresses automatically activate 
the IPv4 part of their dual stacks.

This seems to me the right logic to have.
Changing that would be a step backward.


Rémi






From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 09:52:02 2008
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To: Christian Huitema <huitema@windows.microsoft.com>
CC: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, 
 v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: One socket per AF (Was: 6to4 using ::FFFF:0000:0000/96...)
References: <1960684A-584F-4754-A122-0940BC61DDC0@dragondata.com>	<67099930801231003l648d3200k7c86be48d35b21ef@mail.gmail.com>	<479CD34E.7010403@free.fr>	<A3B8A0B7-7E54-4A88-8C07-29DD2CBE727E@dragondata.com>	<479CF498.4090702@gmail.com> <479D9E65.5090808@free.fr> <87ir1ee03n.fsf@mid.deneb.enyo.de> <479DABCB.7030705@free.fr> <5F00FC98-D878-4305-838C-3D9A8B5D7E5A@muada.com> <479DDD8C.3010707@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <479DF86F.9060904@free.fr> <832C204A-0CBA-4147-ADFF-40E4AB6070AA@dragondata.com> <AFE0AC8DCDE68842B94E8EC69D5F21D639F1F14CB1@NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com> <479EEBB4.6080002@free.fr> <AFE0AC8DCDE68842B94E8EC69D5F21D639F1F150C8@NA-EXMSG-W602.wingroup.windeploy.ntdev.microsoft.com>
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Christian Huitema wrote :
>> In the different view, letting applications to have only one socket
>>  interface is *simpler* than obliging them to know whether the IP 
>> layer works in IPv4 or IPv6.
> 
Right. Let's continue to clarify the issue.


> Most "simple programming" is achieved using high level constructs 
> such as RPC or Web interfaces. The fraction of programs written on 
> the "socket" API tend to be written by sophisticated developers who 
> like "bare to the metal" constructs.
In my view, that's indeed appropriate.

But IMO conformance of dual stacks to RFC 2553 sec 3.7 doesn't make them
less "bare to the metal" (it just says that a v4 destination has to be 
handled by the v4 stack if there is one operational, even if this v4 
destination is presented in 128 bit format.)

> But even if a single listening was a goal,
In my reading of RFC 2553-3.7, this *was* a goal, and a good one.

> it can be achieved without messing with address format,
For an IPv6-only application, listening for an address without being 
concerned whether the remote host is IPv4 only, as RFC 2553-3.7 permits, 
isn't IMO "messing with address formats".

On the opposite, obliging an IPv6-only application to handle in any way 
the v4 Address Family is IMU mixing levels.
Permitting to express a 32 bit address in a 128 bit format is after all 
a simple idea.

> simply by avoiding early binding of the socket to a specific address 
> type, and then using specific addresses in their native formats 
> whenever necessary.
Yes it works but, again, these applications can hardly be considered as 
IPv6-only.(To be *really IPv6-only*, applications do need RFC 2553-3.7 
conformance of dual stacks.)
Note that applications that have this behavior, and with it work on dual 
stacks that don't conform to 2553-3.7, can keep this behavior when their 
stack is patched to conform.

In summary, dual stacks that don't conform to RFC2553-3.7 should be 
corrected :
  1. No adverse effect is predictible, on any existing application.

  2. Some weird phenomena as observed recently would no longer appear.

  3. The bottom line will be that:
- Server applications that have IPv4 sockets, or that have unspecified
address family sockets, will receive IPv4 addresses on them.
- Server applications that only have IPv6 sockets will receive IPv4
addresses in mapped format (without having to recognize them).
- Client applications that, on IPv6 sockets to dual stacks, use remote 
host addresses that happen to be IPv4 addresses automatically activate 
the IPv4 part of their dual stacks.

This seems to me the right logic to have.
Changing that would be a step backward.


Rémi






From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 11:59:54 2008
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Cc: Francois Le Faucheur IMAP <flefauch@cisco.com>, v6ops@ops.ietf.org,
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From: Francois Le Faucheur IMAP <flefauch@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: 6PE-Alt
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:53:54 +0100
To: Vishwas Manral <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
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On 31 Jan 2008, at 15:25, Vishwas Manral wrote:

> Hi Francois,
>
> The document I have written does not use signaling

It is a bit of a stretch to claim that 6PE-Alt does not use signaling.
6PE-Alt and 6PE both use MP-BGP to signal IPv6 reachability.  6PE-Alt  
would simply save you one field (the label value) inside the same  
advertisement.

On the other hand, 6PE-Alt would restrict operations to only one of  
the options allowed in 6PE. The reasons 6PE allowed multiple label  
allocation is precisely because different PEs may want to use  
different label allocation policies.  For example, one 6PE router may  
prefer to allocate per-prefix label in order to be able to forward  
packets via label switching as opposed to performing IPv6 lookup. 6PE  
allows each PR router to use whatever label allocation scheme it sees  
best.


> and does not define
> a new AFI/SAFI functionality to achieve the 6PE.

It is a bit of a stretch to imply that 6PE defines a new AFI/SAFI.
6PE uses the IPv6 AFI and the SAFI defined in RFC3107 (which for  
memory dates back from 2001) precisely for the purpose of binding an  
MPLS label when advertising IPv6 reachability.

>
> The difference is obvious, we get the same functionality

my impression is that you get a restricted subset of the  
functionality (ie forcing every router to use that single label  
allocation scheme). This had been discussed before and decided that  
such a restriction was undesirable and unnecessary.

> without
> adding any new signaling mechanism.

my impression is that both use the same MP-BGP signaling mechanism  
except one would save a few bytes in the same MP-BGP advertisements.

There are multiple interoperable implementations of 6PE today and am  
not aware of significant issues with the current 6PE control plane.

Cheers

Francois




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 12:32:38 2008
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To: "Francois Le Faucheur IMAP" <flefauch@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: 6PE-Alt
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Hi Francois,

As the 6PE-Alt does not require any additional functionality from
BGP-IPv6 (yes that is the signaling required - but that is the same
required for normal BGP IPv6. For 6PE we use a new AFI/ SAFI and send
labels uselessly. So please do not say that the claim no signaling
changes are required for 6PE-Alt  is a stretch), and that is why we
have inter-operable implementations of 6PE-Alt too. It is not about
interoperable implementations alone though. I however am surprised how
this simple mechanism was not captured earlier in the review or coding
process.

We do not need to transport labels at all which are now being
transported. Also as the peer decides the label I use, we may have to
configure different labels from different peers (thus using bigger
keys/ more memory in the tables and a lot of other overload). There is
a lot of overhead of signaling and dataplane without any necessity.

I also have issues with the 6VPE RFC too but let us tackle issues one
at a time. Also please note 6VPE has the concept of VRF's and is used
to give VPN services, while VPE is used for basic IPv6 connectivity
over MPLS IPv4 coulds. So please do not confuse the 2.

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Jan 31, 2008 8:53 AM, Francois Le Faucheur IMAP <flefauch@cisco.com> wrote:
>
> On 31 Jan 2008, at 15:25, Vishwas Manral wrote:
>
> > Hi Francois,
> >
> > The document I have written does not use signaling
>
> It is a bit of a stretch to claim that 6PE-Alt does not use signaling.
> 6PE-Alt and 6PE both use MP-BGP to signal IPv6 reachability.  6PE-Alt
> would simply save you one field (the label value) inside the same
> advertisement.
>
> On the other hand, 6PE-Alt would restrict operations to only one of
> the options allowed in 6PE. The reasons 6PE allowed multiple label
> allocation is precisely because different PEs may want to use
> different label allocation policies.  For example, one 6PE router may
> prefer to allocate per-prefix label in order to be able to forward
> packets via label switching as opposed to performing IPv6 lookup. 6PE
> allows each PR router to use whatever label allocation scheme it sees
> best.
>
>
> > and does not define
> > a new AFI/SAFI functionality to achieve the 6PE.
>
> It is a bit of a stretch to imply that 6PE defines a new AFI/SAFI.
> 6PE uses the IPv6 AFI and the SAFI defined in RFC3107 (which for
> memory dates back from 2001) precisely for the purpose of binding an
> MPLS label when advertising IPv6 reachability.
>
> >
> > The difference is obvious, we get the same functionality
>
> my impression is that you get a restricted subset of the
> functionality (ie forcing every router to use that single label
> allocation scheme). This had been discussed before and decided that
> such a restriction was undesirable and unnecessary.
>
> > without
> > adding any new signaling mechanism.
>
> my impression is that both use the same MP-BGP signaling mechanism
> except one would save a few bytes in the same MP-BGP advertisements.
>
> There are multiple interoperable implementations of 6PE today and am
> not aware of significant issues with the current 6PE control plane.
>
> Cheers
>
> Francois
>




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very interesting. So I gather that you didn't have to modify BT to  
make it use IPv6 directly, you simply used it. That's interesting if  
only because it suggests an obvious generator for IPv6 traffic.

Does it appear to prefer one or the other, or simply try both? Do you  
have to do something specific to trigger IPv6 usage?

On Jan 30, 2008, at 10:27 PM, Nathan Ward wrote:

> Hi,
>
> A few months back I had some stats I'd obtained from looking at  
> packet traces when running Bittorrent.
>
> I'm doing a bit more looking in to that to attempt to give some  
> insights about how one might transition customers to using an IPv6  
> service, in a world where there are no public IPv4 addresses  
> available. I expect that I can prove that service provider NAT+IPv6  
> is sufficient. Let's park whatever religious debate happens on that  
> topic to /dev/null for the moment. I'm also looking in to whatever  
> other interesting Teredo and 6to4 things I see, and this is a  
> pretty good way to talk to a large number of IPv6 hosts.
>
> Recent versions of Azureus (bittorrent client) have a distributed  
> hash tables (DHT) feature, which enables a sort of tracker-less  
> mode of operation. As azureus has some kind of content distribution  
> network on the back of it (Vuze, I think they call it), the DHT  
> system is started even if the client is not fetching torrents.  
> Again, I'm not moving any download data, I am meerly joining the  
> DHT cloud.
>
> So, my setup is;
> - 1 IPv4 interface
> - 1 Teredo interface (set up in such a way that my Teredo address  
> won't change)
> - 1 6to4 interface
>
> I'm capturing packets on each of these, and am looking at how to  
> process the packets to find the following:
> - How many hosts am I talking to on each interface? (ie. I send a  
> packet and they respond, indicating open connectivity)
> - How many 6to4 hosts am I also talking to on IPv4 (assumption made  
> by looking at bits 17-48 of the IPv6 address)
> - How many Teredo hosts am I also talking to on IPv4 (very rough  
> assumption made by looking at bits 97-128 of the IPv6 address.
> - Figure out how many 6to4 hosts are Windows machines with public  
> IPv4 addresses.
> - See if I can figure out how many of those Windows 6to4 machines  
> are behind some kind of filtering that is preventing them from  
> responding.
>
> If anyone has any other bits of data that would be useful for me to  
> pull out, please let me know!
>
> I'm currently stuck trying to force azureus to bring up DHT with  
> two IPv6 addresses, it currently only seems to want to do one for  
> some reason - but I'll figure that out. (Jeroen, do you have any  
> ideas there?)
>
> So far (in 24 hours) I've sent data to about 75k IPv4 hosts, and  
> received data from 50k.
> In 6to4 I have sent data to 27k hosts, and received data from 12k  
> hosts.
> Teredo - nothing of note yet, as I'm not advertising my Teredo  
> address with DHT.
>
> I think that's a pretty decent sample size. These numbers looked  
> quite different last year when I was last talking about this stuff,  
> I think.
>
>
> Interesting note, uTorrent (a Windows-only client) enables Teredo  
> on installation. It has it's own DHT system that doesn't (as far as  
> I am aware) interact with azureus. I might look in to seeing if I  
> can trick Windows in to bringing up Teredo /and/ 6to4, and do some  
> tests with it.
>
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
> Nathan Ward
>
>
>
>
>





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From: Francois Le Faucheur IMAP <flefauch@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: 6PE-Alt
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Hi Vishwas,

I think I've brought up my main points in the previous message so  
will leave it at that for now.

On 31 Jan 2008, at 18:29, Vishwas Manral wrote:

> Hi Francois,
>
> As the 6PE-Alt does not require any additional functionality from
> BGP-IPv6 (yes that is the signaling required - but that is the same
> required for normal BGP IPv6. For 6PE we use a new AFI/ SAFI and send
> labels uselessly. So please do not say that the claim no signaling
> changes are required for 6PE-Alt  is a stretch), and that is why we
> have inter-operable implementations of 6PE-Alt too. It is not about
> interoperable implementations alone though. I however am surprised how
> this simple mechanism was not captured earlier in the review or coding
> process.
>
> We do not need to transport labels at all which are now being
> transported. Also as the peer decides the label I use, we may have to
> configure different labels from different peers (thus using bigger
> keys/ more memory in the tables and a lot of other overload). There is
> a lot of overhead of signaling and dataplane without any necessity.
>
> I also have issues with the 6VPE RFC too but let us tackle issues one
> at a time. Also please note 6VPE has the concept of VRF's and is used
> to give VPN services, while VPE is used for basic IPv6 connectivity
> over MPLS IPv4 coulds. So please do not confuse the 2.

I didn't really feel confused about the 2, but thanks for the advise ^)

Cheers

Francois

>
> Thanks,
> Vishwas
>
> On Jan 31, 2008 8:53 AM, Francois Le Faucheur IMAP  
> <flefauch@cisco.com> wrote:
>>
>> On 31 Jan 2008, at 15:25, Vishwas Manral wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Francois,
>>>
>>> The document I have written does not use signaling
>>
>> It is a bit of a stretch to claim that 6PE-Alt does not use  
>> signaling.
>> 6PE-Alt and 6PE both use MP-BGP to signal IPv6 reachability.  6PE-Alt
>> would simply save you one field (the label value) inside the same
>> advertisement.
>>
>> On the other hand, 6PE-Alt would restrict operations to only one of
>> the options allowed in 6PE. The reasons 6PE allowed multiple label
>> allocation is precisely because different PEs may want to use
>> different label allocation policies.  For example, one 6PE router may
>> prefer to allocate per-prefix label in order to be able to forward
>> packets via label switching as opposed to performing IPv6 lookup. 6PE
>> allows each PR router to use whatever label allocation scheme it sees
>> best.
>>
>>
>>> and does not define
>>> a new AFI/SAFI functionality to achieve the 6PE.
>>
>> It is a bit of a stretch to imply that 6PE defines a new AFI/SAFI.
>> 6PE uses the IPv6 AFI and the SAFI defined in RFC3107 (which for
>> memory dates back from 2001) precisely for the purpose of binding an
>> MPLS label when advertising IPv6 reachability.
>>
>>>
>>> The difference is obvious, we get the same functionality
>>
>> my impression is that you get a restricted subset of the
>> functionality (ie forcing every router to use that single label
>> allocation scheme). This had been discussed before and decided that
>> such a restriction was undesirable and unnecessary.
>>
>>> without
>>> adding any new signaling mechanism.
>>
>> my impression is that both use the same MP-BGP signaling mechanism
>> except one would save a few bytes in the same MP-BGP advertisements.
>>
>> There are multiple interoperable implementations of 6PE today and am
>> not aware of significant issues with the current 6PE control plane.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Francois
>>





From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Jan 31 14:07:31 2008
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:06:48 -0800
From: "Vishwas Manral" <vishwas.ietf@gmail.com>
To: "Francois Le Faucheur IMAP" <flefauch@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: 6PE-Alt
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, "Jeremy De Clercq" <jeremy.de_clercq@alcatel-lucent.be>, 
	"Ooms Dirk" <dirk@onesparrow.com>, stuart.prevost@bt.com
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Hi Francois,

Thanks a lot for the reply.

It seems the only thing the 6PE draft does is that it allows different
label allocation policies (for different routes), when no label
allocation is required at all.

If you think people will still use the 6PE approach even when they can
achieve the same without any new signaling extensions (a new AFI/SAFI
pair) then I am fine to position the draft as an option to your draft.
Do let me know if you feel that way?

Thanks,
Vishwas

On Jan 31, 2008 11:00 AM, Francois Le Faucheur IMAP <flefauch@cisco.com> wrote:
> Hi Vishwas,
>
> I think I've brought up my main points in the previous message so
> will leave it at that for now.
>
> On 31 Jan 2008, at 18:29, Vishwas Manral wrote:
>
> > Hi Francois,
> >
> > As the 6PE-Alt does not require any additional functionality from
> > BGP-IPv6 (yes that is the signaling required - but that is the same
> > required for normal BGP IPv6. For 6PE we use a new AFI/ SAFI and send
> > labels uselessly. So please do not say that the claim no signaling
> > changes are required for 6PE-Alt  is a stretch), and that is why we
> > have inter-operable implementations of 6PE-Alt too. It is not about
> > interoperable implementations alone though. I however am surprised how
> > this simple mechanism was not captured earlier in the review or coding
> > process.
> >
> > We do not need to transport labels at all which are now being
> > transported. Also as the peer decides the label I use, we may have to
> > configure different labels from different peers (thus using bigger
> > keys/ more memory in the tables and a lot of other overload). There is
> > a lot of overhead of signaling and dataplane without any necessity.
> >
> > I also have issues with the 6VPE RFC too but let us tackle issues one
> > at a time. Also please note 6VPE has the concept of VRF's and is used
> > to give VPN services, while VPE is used for basic IPv6 connectivity
> > over MPLS IPv4 coulds. So please do not confuse the 2.
>
> I didn't really feel confused about the 2, but thanks for the advise ^)
>
> Cheers
>
> Francois
>
>
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Vishwas
> >
> > On Jan 31, 2008 8:53 AM, Francois Le Faucheur IMAP
> > <flefauch@cisco.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> On 31 Jan 2008, at 15:25, Vishwas Manral wrote:
> >>
> >>> Hi Francois,
> >>>
> >>> The document I have written does not use signaling
> >>
> >> It is a bit of a stretch to claim that 6PE-Alt does not use
> >> signaling.
> >> 6PE-Alt and 6PE both use MP-BGP to signal IPv6 reachability.  6PE-Alt
> >> would simply save you one field (the label value) inside the same
> >> advertisement.
> >>
> >> On the other hand, 6PE-Alt would restrict operations to only one of
> >> the options allowed in 6PE. The reasons 6PE allowed multiple label
> >> allocation is precisely because different PEs may want to use
> >> different label allocation policies.  For example, one 6PE router may
> >> prefer to allocate per-prefix label in order to be able to forward
> >> packets via label switching as opposed to performing IPv6 lookup. 6PE
> >> allows each PR router to use whatever label allocation scheme it sees
> >> best.
> >>
> >>
> >>> and does not define
> >>> a new AFI/SAFI functionality to achieve the 6PE.
> >>
> >> It is a bit of a stretch to imply that 6PE defines a new AFI/SAFI.
> >> 6PE uses the IPv6 AFI and the SAFI defined in RFC3107 (which for
> >> memory dates back from 2001) precisely for the purpose of binding an
> >> MPLS label when advertising IPv6 reachability.
> >>
> >>>
> >>> The difference is obvious, we get the same functionality
> >>
> >> my impression is that you get a restricted subset of the
> >> functionality (ie forcing every router to use that single label
> >> allocation scheme). This had been discussed before and decided that
> >> such a restriction was undesirable and unnecessary.
> >>
> >>> without
> >>> adding any new signaling mechanism.
> >>
> >> my impression is that both use the same MP-BGP signaling mechanism
> >> except one would save a few bytes in the same MP-BGP advertisements.
> >>
> >> There are multiple interoperable implementations of 6PE today and am
> >> not aware of significant issues with the current 6PE control plane.
> >>
> >> Cheers
> >>
> >> Francois
> >>
>
>




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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
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On Jan 31, 2008, at 4:03 AM, John Curran wrote:

> So, the ID contains hard dates, since they maximize our chance
> (however great or small) of overall success.

ack. so be it.

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Jan 31 17:07:50 2008
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From: "Erik Kline" <ekline@ekline.com>
To: "Pekka Savola" <pekkas@netcore.fi>
Subject: Re: 6to4 anycast IP as source address / PTR record
Cc: "Kevin Day" <toasty@dragondata.com>, v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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> I have no problem getting a PTR record added as long as someone has a
> good idea what that should be :-).

"6to4.anycast.iana.org"?  Maybe incorporate the rfc #, maybe that
would get stale quickly.  I how it gets decided depends on who
decides?  I have no idea...

From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Jan 31 17:19:53 2008
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Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 15:13:34 -1000 (HST)
From: Antonio Querubin <tony@lava.net>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
cc: Kevin Loch <kloch@kl.net>, v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: 6to4 anycast IP as source address / PTR record
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On Fri, 1 Feb 2008, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2008 10:49:08 +1300
> From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
> To: Antonio Querubin <tony@lava.net>
> Cc: Kevin Loch <kloch@kl.net>, v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
> Subject: Re: 6to4 anycast IP as source address / PTR record
> 
> On 2008-01-31 19:34, Antonio Querubin wrote:
>> On Wed, 30 Jan 2008, Kevin Loch wrote:
>>
>>> Kevin Day wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Quick poll:
>>>>
>>>> When a 6to4 relay encapsulates v6 traffic and sends it to a 6to4 host
>>>> over v4, should the source address be 192.88.99.1 or the relay's v4
>>>> unicast address?
>>>
>>> Stateful firewalls would prefer that the return traffic come from
>>> 192.88.99.1 (assuming they properly handle proto 41 traffic).
>>
>> The scenario is 6to4 to 6to4.
>
> I thought that was exactly the scenario Kevin was *not*
> asking about. In that case it's obvious that each 6to4 box
> will use its own IPv4 address as source (which is why it's
> not mentioned in RFC 3056 - because it's obvious).

Doh!  You're right of course.  Sorry for adding to the confusion :)

From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Jan 31 17:42:16 2008
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From: David Conrad <david.conrad@icann.org>
To: Erik Kline <ekline@ekline.com>, Pekka Savola <pekkas@netcore.fi>
CC: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>, v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 31 Jan 2008 17:38:38 -0800
Subject: Re: 6to4 anycast IP as source address / PTR record
Thread-Topic: 6to4 anycast IP as source address / PTR record
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If someone is going to propose something along these lines, I suspect it
would be better if it were something like "6to4.anycast.arpa"... (the key
bit being the TLD).  I doubt it would reduce the abuse load at IANA, but at
least we could share the pain with the IAB... :-)

Regards,
-drc

On 1/31/08 5:01 PM, "Erik Kline" <ekline@ekline.com> wrote:

>> I have no problem getting a PTR record added as long as someone has a
>> good idea what that should be :-).
>
> "6to4.anycast.iana.org"?  Maybe incorporate the rfc #, maybe that
> would get stale quickly.  I how it gets decided depends on who
> decides?  I have no idea...
>
>



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Subject: Re: 6to4 anycast IP as source address / PTR record
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On Jan 31, 2008, at 7:38 PM, David Conrad wrote:

> If someone is going to propose something along these lines, I  
> suspect it
> would be better if it were something like "6to4.anycast.arpa"...  
> (the key
> bit being the TLD).  I doubt it would reduce the abuse load at IANA,  
> but at
> least we could share the pain with the IAB... :-)
>
> Regards,
> -drc
>

I'd considered trying to sell the idea of a name under .arpa, but  
thought that would just add even more debate over what's acceptable to  
put under .arpa and what isn't.

I was actually going to propose something along the lines of "anycast. 
6to4.relay.see.rfc3068.net", with "www.rfc3068.net" being a very brief  
description of what it's used for. Kinda emulating what the as112.net  
folks have done. I've registered rfc3068.net just to stop any random  
idiot watching from registering it after seeing it discussed, but I'm  
happy to turn it over to whoever ends up being responsible for this if  
it goes ahead, and that domain is chosen.

Or maybe all this could be wrapped up in a rehashed RFC that replaces  
3068 which addresses some of the recent issues brought up, that also  
formally selects a domain for the PTR record.

-- Kevin


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From: Pekka Savola <pekkas@netcore.fi>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
cc: Kevin Day <toasty@dragondata.com>, v6ops <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: 6to4 anycast IP as source address / PTR record
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On Fri, 1 Feb 2008, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> It would make a great sense to do that, IMHO, but I'm not sure if we're
>> quite far enough yet to have gained sufficient understanding what needs
>> to be clarified.  When 3056 is rewritten, it can probably be compressed
>> to 10-15 pages at the same time.
>
> I don't see how. There are quite some variants of 6to4 that haven't
> been used, but that doesn't seem to be grounds for undocumenting them.
> I think it's 3068 that needs rewriting, to document what has been
> learnt about using anycast relays to support host-based 6to4.

Based on classification of draft-iab-protocol-success-01.txt, you 
could almost consider 6to4 as a "wild success".  From Section 1.3:

    A wildly successful protocol
    is so useful that it can solve more problems or address more
    scenarios or devices.  This may indicate that it is time to revise
    the protocol to better accommodate the new design space.

Only the host-based 6to4 approach has gained measurable deployment, 
which leads me to think that we should focus on that in the 
specifications.

Unused or non-deployed ideas are routinely removed when revising 
specs.  "BGP-based 6to4" is one that should be at the minimum 
rephrased, if not outright removed.

-- 
Pekka Savola                 "You each name yourselves king, yet the
Netcore Oy                    kingdom bleeds."
Systems. Networks. Security. -- George R.R. Martin: A Clash of Kings