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From ogbornmargi@alsystems.biz  Sun Mar  1 04:11:53 2009
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From sandeepkshukla@gmail.com  Sun Mar  1 06:12:05 2009
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From: "Kristin Simms" <tools-discuss@ietf.org>
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From kormanyos.jozsef@akkrt.hu  Sun Mar  1 07:53:54 2009
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From jobsdd@aceplaces.com  Sun Mar  1 08:50:18 2009
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From iywmd@hbfuller.com  Sun Mar  1 12:55:50 2009
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From: "Cornelia Glenn" <multi6-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
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From mbonet@ajsessalines.net  Sun Mar  1 16:04:59 2009
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From micael.aronssond@acmetruck.com  Sun Mar  1 17:18:52 2009
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From sempl@mail.cybase.co.uk  Sun Mar  1 18:12:17 2009
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Subject: Superior IWC watches for a dime
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From oilmeal@agriwatch.com  Mon Mar  2 05:23:42 2009
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                        <p style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:9px; color:#666666;">
                                KEYWORD Ltd.<br>
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From jenn_huntdd@aigvalic.com  Mon Mar  2 14:29:15 2009
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                                KEYWORD Ltd.<br>
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From nguyenct@aicins.com  Mon Mar  2 14:30:34 2009
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From mary@americanfolkfestival.com  Mon Mar  2 14:46:54 2009
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From msv72@btopenworld.com  Mon Mar  2 20:45:19 2009
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From junee_kim@advantech.co.kr  Mon Mar  2 21:05:35 2009
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Mar  3 03:42:13 2009
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From: Nathan Ward <v6ops@daork.net>
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Subject: Fwd: I-D Action:draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00.txt 
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Hi all,

I have just submitted the following, comments appreciated! Please note  
that it is very draft so I could get this in by the deadline and get  
some discussion happening.

On 4/03/2009, at 12:30 AM, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote:

> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts  
> directories.
>
> 	Title           : 6to4 Qualification
> 	Author(s)       : N. Ward
> 	Filename        : draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00.txt
> 	Pages           : 9
> 	Date            : 2009-03-03
>
> A deployment problem exists with existing self-configuring 6to4
> implementations making often incorrect assumptions about the state of
> their IPv4 network connectivity.
> This document describes the problem, and proposes a qualification
> mechanism by which nodes can validate that their connectivity to the
> global IPv6 network is suitable for use with the 6to4 protocol.
>
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00.txt
>
> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
> Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
> implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
> Internet-Draft.
>
>
> !DSPAM:22,49ad14da98525283917279!
> <mime-attachment>_______________________________________________
> I-D-Announce mailing list
> I-D-Announce@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce
> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html
> or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt
>
>
> !DSPAM:22,49ad14da98525283917279!

--
Nathan Ward



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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Mar  3 07:18:13 2009
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Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 10:13:12 -0500
From: Ed Jankiewicz <edward.jankiewicz@sri.com>
Subject: Sad news
To: 6man <ipv6@ietf.org>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, Internet Area <int-area@ietf.org>
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Word is out that Jim Bound passed away yesterday.  I don't know any 
other details, but thought that colleagues on these lists would want to 
know.

Jim could be brutally honest, but he was just as quick and generous in 
support of people and ideas he believed in as he was in criticizing what 
he recognized as wrongheaded or counterproductive.  I feel very
fortunate to have had his support in my work almost from the first day I 
surfaced in the IPv6 space.

-- 
Ed Jankiewicz - SRI International
Fort Monmouth Branch Office - IPv6 Research 
Supporting DISA Standards Engineering Branch
732-389-1003 or  ed.jankiewicz@sri.com 



From mlake@ncusd203.org  Tue Mar  3 07:22:28 2009
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Mar  3 07:49:11 2009
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Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 07:47:36 -0800
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Subject: Re: Sad news
From: Stacy Hughes <ipgoddess@gmail.com>
To: Ed Jankiewicz <edward.jankiewicz@sri.com>
Cc: 6man <ipv6@ietf.org>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, Internet Area <int-area@ietf.org>
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--0016364c673fac1a9c046438daf7
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Hi Ed, Thanks for letting us know.  Jim's enthusiasm and energy were an
inspiration to me and many I know.
Stacy Hughes
Internap Peering Coordinator

On Tue, Mar 3, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Ed Jankiewicz <edward.jankiewicz@sri.com>wrote:

> Word is out that Jim Bound passed away yesterday.  I don't know any other
> details, but thought that colleagues on these lists would want to know.
>
> Jim could be brutally honest, but he was just as quick and generous in
> support of people and ideas he believed in as he was in criticizing what he
> recognized as wrongheaded or counterproductive.  I feel very
> fortunate to have had his support in my work almost from the first day I
> surfaced in the IPv6 space.
>
> --
> Ed Jankiewicz - SRI International
> Fort Monmouth Branch Office - IPv6 Research Supporting DISA Standards
> Engineering Branch
> 732-389-1003 or  ed.jankiewicz@sri.com
>
>

--0016364c673fac1a9c046438daf7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Ed,=A0<div>Thanks for letting us know. =A0Jim&#39;s enthusiasm and energ=
y were an inspiration to me and many I know.</div><div>Stacy Hughes</div><d=
iv>Internap Peering Coordinator<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue, M=
ar 3, 2009 at 7:13 AM, Ed Jankiewicz <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailt=
o:edward.jankiewicz@sri.com">edward.jankiewicz@sri.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote=
:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Word is out that Jim Bound passed away yest=
erday. =A0I don&#39;t know any other details, but thought that colleagues o=
n these lists would want to know.<br>

<br>
Jim could be brutally honest, but he was just as quick and generous in supp=
ort of people and ideas he believed in as he was in criticizing what he rec=
ognized as wrongheaded or counterproductive. =A0I feel very<br>
fortunate to have had his support in my work almost from the first day I su=
rfaced in the IPv6 space.<br><font color=3D"#888888">
<br>
-- <br>
Ed Jankiewicz - SRI International<br>
Fort Monmouth Branch Office - IPv6 Research Supporting DISA Standards Engin=
eering Branch<br>
732-389-1003 or =A0<a href=3D"mailto:ed.jankiewicz@sri.com" target=3D"_blan=
k">ed.jankiewicz@sri.com</a> <br>
<br>
</font></blockquote></div><br></div>

--0016364c673fac1a9c046438daf7--


From connor@webraska.com  Tue Mar  3 08:54:27 2009
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Subject: Girls will love this Tag Heuer watch
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To: "Fran Salgado" <tsv-area@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 03 Mar 2009 11:54:26 -0500

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I hope I'm not out of line posting here, but I thought people would 
like to know about some interesting discussion of operational issues 
and developments around DHCPv6, some inside the IETF, some outside.

First up is a rather large thread on ISC's dhcp-users list discussing 
issues surrounding DHCPv6's lack of a client link-layer address 
option:

https://lists.isc.org/pipermail/dhcp-users/2009-February/thread.html#8088

https://lists.isc.org/pipermail/dhcp-users/2009-March/thread.html#8118

Next is a much smaller thread about SLAAC and DDNS on dhcwg:

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dhcwg/current/msg09635.html

Finally, the message below from Ralph Droms is the first I've heard of 
a draft documenting DHCPv6 options for default router and prefix 
length.  I welcome this addition.

Regards,
Chuck

----- Forwarded message from Ralph Droms <rdroms@cisco.com> -----

From: Ralph Droms <rdroms@cisco.com>
To: nanog@nanog.org
Date: Tue, 3 Mar 2009 06:10:09 -0500
Subject: Re: IPv6 confusion
Precedence: list

Thanks to all who responded with input about why DHCPv6 should have  
options for default routers and prefix information.  We've published a  
draft defining these options, which will be discussed at the upcoming IETF 
meeting in San Francisco.

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts  
directories.

	   Title           : Default Router and Prefix Advertisement Options for 
DHCPv6
	   Author(s)       : R. Droms, T. Narten
	   Filename        : draft-droms-dhc-dhcpv6-default-router-00.txt
	   Pages           : 7
	   Date            : 2009-03-02

   In some IPv6 deployments, there is a requirement to communicate a
   list of default routers and advertised prefixes to a host through
   DHCP.  This document defines DHCP options to carry that information.

   A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-droms-dhc-dhcpv6-default-router-00.txt

   Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
   ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

- Ralph


----- End forwarded message -----


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar  4 18:21:34 2009
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I have gotten a number of folks asking for time on the agenda, but I  
have a problem:


-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19268 Sep 10 05:33 draft-ietf-v6ops-ra- 
guard-01.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   61870 Sep 29 08:52 draft-miyata-v6ops- 
snatpt-02.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48468 Oct  1 10:58 draft-endo-v6ops- 
dnsproxy-01.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   43841 Oct 15 10:48 draft-ietf-v6ops-tunnel- 
security-concerns-
01.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   18562 Oct 15 10:48 draft-krishnan-v6ops- 
teredo-update-04.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   53090 Oct 30 10:22 draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe- 
router-03.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   36662 Nov  3 10:15 draft-bajko-v6ops-port- 
restricted-ipaddr-a
ssign-02.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48973 Nov  3 11:06 draft-luo-v6ops-6man- 
shim6-lbam-00.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   30429 Nov  3 14:26 draft-chown-v6ops-rogue- 
ra-02.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred  134587 Nov  3 16:14 draft-thaler-v6ops- 
teredo-extensions-02.tx
t
-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   16462 Feb 17 14:52 draft-rgaglian-v6ops- 
v6inixp-01.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred    9716 Feb 18 08:01 draft-denis-v6ops-nat- 
addrsel-00.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   41369 Feb 23 22:05 draft-bnss-v6ops- 
upnp-00.txt
-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19211 Mar  4 14:11 draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops- 
conf-stats-00.txt


I see four new drafts post-Minneapolis. The Rogue RA and Teredo  
drafts, whose last call completed several months ago and the write-up  
is awaiting new drafts, don't have new drafts.

Hello? Anyone out there? I need new drafts (cut-off date is Friday)  
for anything folks expect to discuss in the WG meeting...


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar  4 19:01:45 2009
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 11:00:27 +0800
From: Sheng Jiang <shengjiang@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: Agenda issue
To: 'Fred Baker' <fred@cisco.com>, 'IPv6 Operations' <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: 'Brian Carpenter' <brian@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
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Hi, Fred,

We have submitted a new draft, draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00. I think we are
already on the vows agenda. Are we? If no yet, please count us in. Thanks.

Best regards,

Sheng 

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>[mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
>Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:16 AM
>To: IPv6 Operations
>Subject: Agenda issue
>
>I have gotten a number of folks asking for time on the agenda, but I 
>have a problem:
>
>
>-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19268 Sep 10 05:33 draft-ietf-v6ops-ra- 
>guard-01.txt
>-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   61870 Sep 29 08:52 draft-miyata-v6ops- 
>snatpt-02.txt
>-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48468 Oct  1 10:58 draft-endo-v6ops- 
>dnsproxy-01.txt
>-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   43841 Oct 15 10:48 draft-ietf-v6ops-tunnel- 
>security-concerns-
>01.txt
>-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   18562 Oct 15 10:48 draft-krishnan-v6ops- 
>teredo-update-04.txt
>-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   53090 Oct 30 10:22 draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe- 
>router-03.txt
>-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   36662 Nov  3 10:15 draft-bajko-v6ops-port- 
>restricted-ipaddr-a
>ssign-02.txt
>-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48973 Nov  3 11:06 draft-luo-v6ops-6man- 
>shim6-lbam-00.txt
>-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   30429 Nov  3 14:26 draft-chown-v6ops-rogue- 
>ra-02.txt
>-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred  134587 Nov  3 16:14
>draft-thaler-v6ops- teredo-extensions-02.tx t
>-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   16462 Feb 17 14:52 draft-rgaglian-v6ops- 
>v6inixp-01.txt
>-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred    9716 Feb 18 08:01 draft-denis-v6ops-nat- 
>addrsel-00.txt
>-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   41369 Feb 23 22:05 draft-bnss-v6ops- 
>upnp-00.txt
>-rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19211 Mar  4 14:11 draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops- 
>conf-stats-00.txt
>
>
>I see four new drafts post-Minneapolis. The Rogue RA and Teredo drafts, 
>whose last call completed several months ago and the write-up is 
>awaiting new drafts, don't have new drafts.
>
>Hello? Anyone out there? I need new drafts (cut-off date is Friday) for 
>anything folks expect to discuss in the WG meeting...
>



From braun@swanhunter.com  Wed Mar  4 23:38:33 2009
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From: "Noah Pate" <tls@ietf.org>
To: "Nadia Stevenson" <tls@ietf.org>
Subject: Impress everyone with wealth and watches
Content-Type: text/plain;
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 02:38:40 -0500

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar  5 00:59:18 2009
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From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
To: Sheng Jiang <shengjiang@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: Agenda issue
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:55:22 -0800
References: <01b701c99d3e$89e1f570$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com>
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OK. I truly wish you had put the working group moniker in the draft  
name (individual submission to a named working group), as it is hard  
to keep track of work in a working group with individual submission  
names.

On Mar 4, 2009, at 7:00 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:

> Hi, Fred,
>
> We have submitted a new draft, draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00. I  
> think we are
> already on the vows agenda. Are we? If no yet, please count us in.  
> Thanks.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sheng
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
>> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:16 AM
>> To: IPv6 Operations
>> Subject: Agenda issue
>>
>> I have gotten a number of folks asking for time on the agenda, but I
>> have a problem:
>>
>>
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19268 Sep 10 05:33 draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-
>> guard-01.txt
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   61870 Sep 29 08:52 draft-miyata-v6ops-
>> snatpt-02.txt
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48468 Oct  1 10:58 draft-endo-v6ops-
>> dnsproxy-01.txt
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   43841 Oct 15 10:48 draft-ietf-v6ops- 
>> tunnel-
>> security-concerns-
>> 01.txt
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   18562 Oct 15 10:48 draft-krishnan-v6ops-
>> teredo-update-04.txt
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   53090 Oct 30 10:22 draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-
>> router-03.txt
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   36662 Nov  3 10:15 draft-bajko-v6ops-port-
>> restricted-ipaddr-a
>> ssign-02.txt
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48973 Nov  3 11:06 draft-luo-v6ops-6man-
>> shim6-lbam-00.txt
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   30429 Nov  3 14:26 draft-chown-v6ops- 
>> rogue-
>> ra-02.txt
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred  134587 Nov  3 16:14
>> draft-thaler-v6ops- teredo-extensions-02.tx t
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   16462 Feb 17 14:52 draft-rgaglian-v6ops-
>> v6inixp-01.txt
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred    9716 Feb 18 08:01 draft-denis-v6ops-nat-
>> addrsel-00.txt
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   41369 Feb 23 22:05 draft-bnss-v6ops-
>> upnp-00.txt
>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19211 Mar  4 14:11 draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-
>> conf-stats-00.txt
>>
>>
>> I see four new drafts post-Minneapolis. The Rogue RA and Teredo  
>> drafts,
>> whose last call completed several months ago and the write-up is
>> awaiting new drafts, don't have new drafts.
>>
>> Hello? Anyone out there? I need new drafts (cut-off date is Friday)  
>> for
>> anything folks expect to discuss in the WG meeting...
>>
>



From savutu.952@fugro.com  Thu Mar  5 01:28:13 2009
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To: "Madelyn Chin" <v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
From: "Edwina Schmidt" <v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Subject: Impress everyone with wealth and watches
Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 04:28:37 -0500
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar  5 01:30:13 2009
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Date: Thu, 05 Mar 2009 17:28:47 +0800
From: Sheng Jiang <shengjiang@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: Agenda issue
In-reply-to: <7FAE1435-0FE1-4C23-B8BF-151D58AF5341@cisco.com>
To: 'Fred Baker' <fred@cisco.com>
Cc: 'IPv6 Operations' <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, 'Brian Carpenter' <brian@cs.auckland.ac.nz>
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For sure. We know the draft name rules. When we wrote the draft, we were not sure
which WG it should be submitted. It seems relevant to both v6ops and behave. We can
fix it in 01 version by putting v6ops into the draft name.

Best regards,

Sheng

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco.com] 
>Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:55 PM
>To: Sheng Jiang
>Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Brian Carpenter'
>Subject: Re: Agenda issue
>
>OK. I truly wish you had put the working group moniker in the 
>draft name (individual submission to a named working group), 
>as it is hard to keep track of work in a working group with 
>individual submission names.
>
>On Mar 4, 2009, at 7:00 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:
>
>> Hi, Fred,
>>
>> We have submitted a new draft, 
>draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00. I think 
>> we are already on the vows agenda. Are we? If no yet, please 
>count us 
>> in.
>> Thanks.
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Sheng
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:16 AM
>>> To: IPv6 Operations
>>> Subject: Agenda issue
>>>
>>> I have gotten a number of folks asking for time on the 
>agenda, but I 
>>> have a problem:
>>>
>>>
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19268 Sep 10 05:33 draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-
>>> guard-01.txt
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   61870 Sep 29 08:52 draft-miyata-v6ops-
>>> snatpt-02.txt
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48468 Oct  1 10:58 draft-endo-v6ops-
>>> dnsproxy-01.txt
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   43841 Oct 15 10:48 draft-ietf-v6ops- 
>>> tunnel-
>>> security-concerns-
>>> 01.txt
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   18562 Oct 15 10:48 draft-krishnan-v6ops-
>>> teredo-update-04.txt
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   53090 Oct 30 10:22 
>draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-
>>> router-03.txt
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   36662 Nov  3 10:15 
>draft-bajko-v6ops-port-
>>> restricted-ipaddr-a
>>> ssign-02.txt
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48973 Nov  3 11:06 draft-luo-v6ops-6man-
>>> shim6-lbam-00.txt
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   30429 Nov  3 14:26 draft-chown-v6ops- 
>>> rogue-
>>> ra-02.txt
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred  134587 Nov  3 16:14
>>> draft-thaler-v6ops- teredo-extensions-02.tx t
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   16462 Feb 17 14:52 draft-rgaglian-v6ops-
>>> v6inixp-01.txt
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred    9716 Feb 18 08:01 draft-denis-v6ops-nat-
>>> addrsel-00.txt
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   41369 Feb 23 22:05 draft-bnss-v6ops-
>>> upnp-00.txt
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19211 Mar  4 14:11 
>draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-
>>> conf-stats-00.txt
>>>
>>>
>>> I see four new drafts post-Minneapolis. The Rogue RA and Teredo 
>>> drafts, whose last call completed several months ago and 
>the write-up 
>>> is awaiting new drafts, don't have new drafts.
>>>
>>> Hello? Anyone out there? I need new drafts (cut-off date is Friday) 
>>> for anything folks expect to discuss in the WG meeting...
>>>
>>
>



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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : IPv6 RA-Guard
	Author(s)       : E. Levy-Abegnoli, et al.
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-guard-02.txt
	Pages           : 10
	Date            : 2009-03-05

It is particularly easy to experience "rogue" routers on an unsecured
link.  Devices acting as a rougue router may send illegitimate RAs.
Section 6 of SeND [RFC3971] provides a full solution to this problem,
by enabling routers certification.  This solution does, however,
require all nodes on an L2 network segment to support SeND, as well
as it carries some deployment challenges.  End-nodes must be
provisioned with certificate anchors.  The solution works better when
end-nodes have access to a Certificate Revocation List server, and to
a Network Time Protocol server, both typically off-link, which brings
some bootstrap issues.

When using IPv6 within a single L2 network segment it is possible and
sometimes desirable to enable layer 2 devices to drop rogue RAs
before they reach end-nodes.  In order to distinguish valid from
rogue RAs, the L2 devices can use a spectrum of criterias, from a
static scheme that blocks RAs received on un-trusted ports, or from
un-trusted sources, to a more dynamic scheme that uses SeND to
challenge RA sources.

This document reviews various techniques applicable on the L2 devices
to reduce the threat of rogue RAs.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-guard-02.txt

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Dear All,
=20
A new version of RA-Guard has just been submitted.
=20
During the latest WGLC the following comments were registered:
=20
Thomas Narten: http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01728.html
Wes Beebee: http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01729.html
Hemant Sigh: http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01730.html
Fred Templin: http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01733.html
=20
The comments and suggestions have been addressed in this version by the
followong actions:
=20
1) Adding the: Intentional Status: Informational
2) The SeND and RA-Guard Interaction is addressed in section "4.2.
SeND-based RA-Guard"
3) Added a security consideration regarding the assumption that
RA-filtering must be done according the RA-Guard criteria if RA-Guard is
enabled
=20
Kind Regards,
G/
=20
=20
 =09
Gunter Van de Velde
Technical Leader
NSSTG - ECMD

gvandeve@cisco.com
Phone: +32 (0) 2 704 5473
Mobile: +32 (0) 476 476 022
Fax: +32 (0) 2 704 2500

CCIE - 3741

Cisco Systems Belgium BVBA/SPRL
De Kleetlaan 6A
1831 Diegem
Belgium
Belgium
Cisco home page <http://www.cisco.com/global/BE/>=20



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<BODY>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D645323310-05032009>Dear=20
All,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D645323310-05032009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN =
class=3D645323310-05032009>A&nbsp;new version=20
of RA-Guard has just been submitted.</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D645323310-05032009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D645323310-05032009>During =
the latest=20
WGLC the following comments were registered:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D645323310-05032009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D645323310-05032009>Thomas =
Narten: <A=20
title=3Dblocked::http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01728.html=
=20
href=3D"http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01728.html">http://=
ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01728.html</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV>=

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D645323310-05032009>Wes =
Beebee: <A=20
title=3Dblocked::http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01729.html=
=20
href=3D"http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01729.html">http://=
ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01729.html</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV>=

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D645323310-05032009>Hemant =
Sigh: <A=20
title=3Dblocked::http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01730.html=
=20
href=3D"http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01730.html">http://=
ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01730.html</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV>=

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D645323310-05032009>Fred =
Templin: <A=20
title=3Dblocked::http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01733.html=
=20
href=3D"http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01733.html">http://=
ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2008/msg01733.html</A></SPAN></FONT></DIV>=

<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D645323310-05032009>The =
comments and=20
suggestions have been addressed in this version by the followong=20
actions:</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D645323310-05032009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D645323310-05032009>1) =
Adding the:=20
Intentional Status: Informational</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><SPAN class=3D645323310-05032009><FONT =
size=3D2>2) The SeND=20
and RA-Guard Interaction is addressed in section "<SPAN class=3Dh3><A=20
name=3Dsection-4.2>4.2</A>.&nbsp; SeND-based=20
RA-Guard"</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D645323310-05032009>3) =
Added a security=20
consideration regarding the assumption that RA-filtering must be done =
according=20
the RA-Guard criteria if RA-Guard is enabled</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D645323310-05032009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN class=3D645323310-05032009>Kind=20
Regards,</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D645323310-05032009>G/</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
class=3D645323310-05032009></SPAN></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar  5 18:37:09 2009
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From: "Dan Wing" <dwing@cisco.com>
To: "'Sheng Jiang'" <shengjiang@huawei.com>
Cc: "'IPv6 Operations'" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "'Brian Carpenter'" <brian@cs.auckland.ac.nz>, <guoseu@huawei.com>, <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
References: <7FAE1435-0FE1-4C23-B8BF-151D58AF5341@cisco.com> <01d401c99d74$c9600490$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com>
Subject: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00
Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 18:32:17 -0800
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org 
> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 1:29 AM
> To: 'Fred Baker'
> Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Brian Carpenter'
> Subject: RE: Agenda issue
> 
> For sure. We know the draft name rules. When we wrote the 
> draft, we were not sure
> which WG it should be submitted. It seems relevant to both 
> v6ops and behave.

As a BEHAVE co-chair, I haven't seen a request for agenda time 
for draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00, nor any discussion about the 
draft on the BEHAVE mailing list.

> We can fix it in 01 version by putting v6ops into the draft name.

Renaming a draft starts it at -00.


Anyway, regarding your draft:  it says that the CGN has to terminate 
the 6-over-4 tunnel.  Couldn't some other device -- not necessarily 
the CGN -- terminate that tunnel?  If so, then I believe your
proposal is very much just a NAT44 ("CGN") and a 6-over-4 tunnel
from the in-home gateway to some device that terminates the
tunnel and has IPv6 Internet connectivity.  This tunnel concentrator
might belong to the ISP providing IPv4 service, but it might also be
offered by someone else on the Internet (as a separate service), in
which case the 6-over-4 tunnel might actually go *across* the 
service provider's NAT44 ("CGN").

-d


> Best regards,
> 
> Sheng
> 
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco.com] 
> >Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:55 PM
> >To: Sheng Jiang
> >Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Brian Carpenter'
> >Subject: Re: Agenda issue
> >
> >OK. I truly wish you had put the working group moniker in the 
> >draft name (individual submission to a named working group), 
> >as it is hard to keep track of work in a working group with 
> >individual submission names.
> >
> >On Mar 4, 2009, at 7:00 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:
> >
> >> Hi, Fred,
> >>
> >> We have submitted a new draft, 
> >draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00. I think 
> >> we are already on the vows agenda. Are we? If no yet, please 
> >count us 
> >> in.
> >> Thanks.
> >>
> >> Best regards,
> >>
> >> Sheng
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> >>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:16 AM
> >>> To: IPv6 Operations
> >>> Subject: Agenda issue
> >>>
> >>> I have gotten a number of folks asking for time on the 
> >agenda, but I 
> >>> have a problem:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19268 Sep 10 05:33 draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-
> >>> guard-01.txt
> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   61870 Sep 29 08:52 draft-miyata-v6ops-
> >>> snatpt-02.txt
> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48468 Oct  1 10:58 draft-endo-v6ops-
> >>> dnsproxy-01.txt
> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   43841 Oct 15 10:48 draft-ietf-v6ops- 
> >>> tunnel-
> >>> security-concerns-
> >>> 01.txt
> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   18562 Oct 15 10:48 
> draft-krishnan-v6ops-
> >>> teredo-update-04.txt
> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   53090 Oct 30 10:22 
> >draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-
> >>> router-03.txt
> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   36662 Nov  3 10:15 
> >draft-bajko-v6ops-port-
> >>> restricted-ipaddr-a
> >>> ssign-02.txt
> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48973 Nov  3 11:06 
> draft-luo-v6ops-6man-
> >>> shim6-lbam-00.txt
> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   30429 Nov  3 14:26 draft-chown-v6ops- 
> >>> rogue-
> >>> ra-02.txt
> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred  134587 Nov  3 16:14
> >>> draft-thaler-v6ops- teredo-extensions-02.tx t
> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   16462 Feb 17 14:52 
> draft-rgaglian-v6ops-
> >>> v6inixp-01.txt
> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred    9716 Feb 18 08:01 
> draft-denis-v6ops-nat-
> >>> addrsel-00.txt
> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   41369 Feb 23 22:05 draft-bnss-v6ops-
> >>> upnp-00.txt
> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19211 Mar  4 14:11 
> >draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-
> >>> conf-stats-00.txt
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> I see four new drafts post-Minneapolis. The Rogue RA and Teredo 
> >>> drafts, whose last call completed several months ago and 
> >the write-up 
> >>> is awaiting new drafts, don't have new drafts.
> >>>
> >>> Hello? Anyone out there? I need new drafts (cut-off date 
> is Friday) 
> >>> for anything folks expect to discuss in the WG meeting...
> >>>
> >>
> >
> 
> 



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar  5 20:06:17 2009
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Date: Fri, 06 Mar 2009 12:03:39 +0800
From: Sheng Jiang <shengjiang@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00
In-reply-to: <110c01c99e03$c46343a0$c2f0200a@cisco.com>
To: 'Dan Wing' <dwing@cisco.com>
Cc: 'IPv6 Operations' <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, guoseu@huawei.com, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
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>From: Dan Wing [mailto:dwing@cisco.com] 

>> We can fix it in 01 version by putting v6ops into the draft name.
>
>Renaming a draft starts it at -00.

Thanks, we can rename it with 00 and WG name.

>Anyway, regarding your draft:  it says that the CGN has to 
>terminate the 6-over-4 tunnel.  Couldn't some other device -- 
>not necessarily the CGN -- terminate that tunnel?  If so, then 
>I believe your proposal is very much just a NAT44 ("CGN") and 
>a 6-over-4 tunnel from the in-home gateway to some device that 
>terminates the tunnel and has IPv6 Internet connectivity.  
>This tunnel concentrator might belong to the ISP providing 
>IPv4 service, but it might also be offered by someone else on 
>the Internet (as a separate service), in which case the 
>6-over-4 tunnel might actually go *across* the service 
>provider's NAT44 ("CGN").

Yes, your understanding is right. NAT44 and 6-over-4 tunnel can be splitted. They
are separate technologies.

In our proposal, we suggest to integrate NAT44 and 6-over-4 tunnel into a same
device box (CGN) so that ISPs can deploy it with a clear IPv6 migration strategy.
Here, we may extend the concept of CGN a little bit. When we talk about CGN, we are
actually referring to a carrier-grade device, which integrates NAT functions and
other integrated technologies.

Best regards,

Sheng

>> >-----Original Message-----
>> >From: Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco.com] 
>> >Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:55 PM
>> >To: Sheng Jiang
>> >Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Brian Carpenter'
>> >Subject: Re: Agenda issue
>> >
>> >OK. I truly wish you had put the working group moniker in the 
>> >draft name (individual submission to a named working group), 
>> >as it is hard to keep track of work in a working group with 
>> >individual submission names.
>> >
>> >On Mar 4, 2009, at 7:00 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi, Fred,
>> >>
>> >> We have submitted a new draft, 
>> >draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00. I think 
>> >> we are already on the vows agenda. Are we? If no yet, please 
>> >count us 
>> >> in.
>> >> Thanks.
>> >>
>> >> Best regards,
>> >>
>> >> Sheng
>> >>
>> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>> >>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
>> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:16 AM
>> >>> To: IPv6 Operations
>> >>> Subject: Agenda issue
>> >>>
>> >>> I have gotten a number of folks asking for time on the 
>> >agenda, but I 
>> >>> have a problem:
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19268 Sep 10 05:33 
>draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-
>> >>> guard-01.txt
>> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   61870 Sep 29 08:52 draft-miyata-v6ops-
>> >>> snatpt-02.txt
>> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48468 Oct  1 10:58 draft-endo-v6ops-
>> >>> dnsproxy-01.txt
>> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   43841 Oct 15 10:48 draft-ietf-v6ops- 
>> >>> tunnel-
>> >>> security-concerns-
>> >>> 01.txt
>> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   18562 Oct 15 10:48 
>> draft-krishnan-v6ops-
>> >>> teredo-update-04.txt
>> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   53090 Oct 30 10:22 
>> >draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-
>> >>> router-03.txt
>> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   36662 Nov  3 10:15 
>> >draft-bajko-v6ops-port-
>> >>> restricted-ipaddr-a
>> >>> ssign-02.txt
>> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48973 Nov  3 11:06 
>> draft-luo-v6ops-6man-
>> >>> shim6-lbam-00.txt
>> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   30429 Nov  3 14:26 draft-chown-v6ops- 
>> >>> rogue-
>> >>> ra-02.txt
>> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred  134587 Nov  3 16:14
>> >>> draft-thaler-v6ops- teredo-extensions-02.tx t
>> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   16462 Feb 17 14:52 
>> draft-rgaglian-v6ops-
>> >>> v6inixp-01.txt
>> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred    9716 Feb 18 08:01 
>> draft-denis-v6ops-nat-
>> >>> addrsel-00.txt
>> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   41369 Feb 23 22:05 draft-bnss-v6ops-
>> >>> upnp-00.txt
>> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19211 Mar  4 14:11 
>> >draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-
>> >>> conf-stats-00.txt
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> I see four new drafts post-Minneapolis. The Rogue RA and Teredo 
>> >>> drafts, whose last call completed several months ago and 
>> >the write-up 
>> >>> is awaiting new drafts, don't have new drafts.
>> >>>
>> >>> Hello? Anyone out there? I need new drafts (cut-off date 
>> is Friday) 
>> >>> for anything folks expect to discuss in the WG meeting...
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >
>> 
>> 
>



From butlermv@ihupt.org  Fri Mar  6 02:22:02 2009
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From hendrik@bhinneka.com  Fri Mar  6 07:17:07 2009
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Subject: Your Zol0ft 0rder #9689464
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From eu@avis.com  Fri Mar  6 07:25:49 2009
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Be a Valentine's Day stud!

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar  6 08:06:48 2009
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Subject: RE: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 08:01:59 -0800
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Sheng Jiang" <shengjiang@huawei.com>, "Dan Wing" <dwing@cisco.com>
Cc: "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, <guoseu@huawei.com>, <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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For the case of IPv6, I think what you are calling
"DS HG" is pretty much the same as what is called
"Enterprise Border Router (EBR)" and the CGN is pretty
much the same as what is called: "Enterprise Border
Gateway (EBG)" in VET ('draft-templin-autoconf-dhcp').
You could also check the diagrams in RANGER to see if
they satisfy your needs ('draft-templin-ranger').

The CPE people might also want to check VET, which is
really a superset of ISATAP.

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 8:04 PM
> To: 'Dan Wing'
> Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
> Subject: RE: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00
>=20
> >From: Dan Wing [mailto:dwing@cisco.com]
>=20
> >> We can fix it in 01 version by putting v6ops into the draft name.
> >
> >Renaming a draft starts it at -00.
>=20
> Thanks, we can rename it with 00 and WG name.
>=20
> >Anyway, regarding your draft:  it says that the CGN has to
> >terminate the 6-over-4 tunnel.  Couldn't some other device --
> >not necessarily the CGN -- terminate that tunnel?  If so, then
> >I believe your proposal is very much just a NAT44 ("CGN") and
> >a 6-over-4 tunnel from the in-home gateway to some device that
> >terminates the tunnel and has IPv6 Internet connectivity.
> >This tunnel concentrator might belong to the ISP providing
> >IPv4 service, but it might also be offered by someone else on
> >the Internet (as a separate service), in which case the
> >6-over-4 tunnel might actually go *across* the service
> >provider's NAT44 ("CGN").
>=20
> Yes, your understanding is right. NAT44 and 6-over-4 tunnel can be
splitted. They
> are separate technologies.
>=20
> In our proposal, we suggest to integrate NAT44 and 6-over-4 tunnel
into a same
> device box (CGN) so that ISPs can deploy it with a clear IPv6
migration strategy.
> Here, we may extend the concept of CGN a little bit. When we talk
about CGN, we are
> actually referring to a carrier-grade device, which integrates NAT
functions and
> other integrated technologies.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Sheng
>=20
> >> >-----Original Message-----
> >> >From: Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco.com]
> >> >Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:55 PM
> >> >To: Sheng Jiang
> >> >Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Brian Carpenter'
> >> >Subject: Re: Agenda issue
> >> >
> >> >OK. I truly wish you had put the working group moniker in the
> >> >draft name (individual submission to a named working group),
> >> >as it is hard to keep track of work in a working group with
> >> >individual submission names.
> >> >
> >> >On Mar 4, 2009, at 7:00 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Hi, Fred,
> >> >>
> >> >> We have submitted a new draft,
> >> >draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00. I think
> >> >> we are already on the vows agenda. Are we? If no yet, please
> >> >count us
> >> >> in.
> >> >> Thanks.
> >> >>
> >> >> Best regards,
> >> >>
> >> >> Sheng
> >> >>
> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >> >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> >> >>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:16 AM
> >> >>> To: IPv6 Operations
> >> >>> Subject: Agenda issue
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I have gotten a number of folks asking for time on the
> >> >agenda, but I
> >> >>> have a problem:
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19268 Sep 10 05:33
> >draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-
> >> >>> guard-01.txt
> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   61870 Sep 29 08:52
draft-miyata-v6ops-
> >> >>> snatpt-02.txt
> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48468 Oct  1 10:58 draft-endo-v6ops-
> >> >>> dnsproxy-01.txt
> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   43841 Oct 15 10:48 draft-ietf-v6ops-
> >> >>> tunnel-
> >> >>> security-concerns-
> >> >>> 01.txt
> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   18562 Oct 15 10:48
> >> draft-krishnan-v6ops-
> >> >>> teredo-update-04.txt
> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   53090 Oct 30 10:22
> >> >draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-
> >> >>> router-03.txt
> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   36662 Nov  3 10:15
> >> >draft-bajko-v6ops-port-
> >> >>> restricted-ipaddr-a
> >> >>> ssign-02.txt
> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48973 Nov  3 11:06
> >> draft-luo-v6ops-6man-
> >> >>> shim6-lbam-00.txt
> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   30429 Nov  3 14:26
draft-chown-v6ops-
> >> >>> rogue-
> >> >>> ra-02.txt
> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred  134587 Nov  3 16:14
> >> >>> draft-thaler-v6ops- teredo-extensions-02.tx t
> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   16462 Feb 17 14:52
> >> draft-rgaglian-v6ops-
> >> >>> v6inixp-01.txt
> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred    9716 Feb 18 08:01
> >> draft-denis-v6ops-nat-
> >> >>> addrsel-00.txt
> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   41369 Feb 23 22:05 draft-bnss-v6ops-
> >> >>> upnp-00.txt
> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19211 Mar  4 14:11
> >> >draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-
> >> >>> conf-stats-00.txt
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> I see four new drafts post-Minneapolis. The Rogue RA and Teredo
> >> >>> drafts, whose last call completed several months ago and
> >> >the write-up
> >> >>> is awaiting new drafts, don't have new drafts.
> >> >>>
> >> >>> Hello? Anyone out there? I need new drafts (cut-off date
> >> is Friday)
> >> >>> for anything folks expect to discuss in the WG meeting...
> >> >>>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >>
> >
>=20



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Subject: Re: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00
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On Mar 5, 2009, at 6:32 PM, Dan Wing wrote:

>> For sure. We know the draft name rules. When we wrote the  draft,  
>> we were not sure which WG it should be submitted. It seems relevant  
>> to both v6ops and behave.
>
> As a BEHAVE co-chair, I haven't seen a request for agenda time for  
> draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00, nor any discussion about the draft  
> on the BEHAVE mailing list.

It may be that Brian asked me first. He was of the opinion that this  
is more operational in nature than about the specifics of the NAT  
operation, and I agreed to give it some air time. We'll see what  
happens to it.


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> >> For sure. We know the draft name rules. When we wrote the  draft,  
> >> we were not sure which WG it should be submitted. It seems 
> >> relevant to both v6ops and behave.
> >
> > As a BEHAVE co-chair, I haven't seen a request for agenda time for  
> > draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00, nor any discussion about the draft  
> > on the BEHAVE mailing list.
> 
> It may be that Brian asked me first. He was of the opinion that this  
> is more operational in nature than about the specifics of the NAT  
> operation, and I agreed to give it some air time. We'll see what  
> happens to it.

That sounds fair.  BEHAVE certainly has enough on its plate already.

-d



From daniel@explorationsacademy.org  Fri Mar  6 09:16:50 2009
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar  6 11:30:25 2009
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References: <7FAE1435-0FE1-4C23-B8BF-151D58AF5341@cisco.com> <01d401c99d74$c9600490$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <110c01c99e03$c46343a0$c2f0200a@cisco.com>
Date: Sat, 7 Mar 2009 08:26:23 +1300
Message-ID: <60fc593c0903061126v42ec8c17x70df80562730b40c@mail.gmail.com>
Subject: Re: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00
From: Brian Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
To: Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>
Cc: Sheng Jiang <shengjiang@huawei.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>,  Brian Carpenter <brian@cs.auckland.ac.nz>, guoseu@huawei.com
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Dan,

We're describing a scenario. Obviously, there are other similar
scenarios. That's
why v6ops seems like the obvious place for a first discussion, imho.

   Brian

On 3/6/09, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
>  > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>  > [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
>  > Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 1:29 AM
>  > To: 'Fred Baker'
>  > Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Brian Carpenter'
>  > Subject: RE: Agenda issue
>  >
>  > For sure. We know the draft name rules. When we wrote the
>  > draft, we were not sure
>  > which WG it should be submitted. It seems relevant to both
>  > v6ops and behave.
>
>  As a BEHAVE co-chair, I haven't seen a request for agenda time
>  for draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00, nor any discussion about the
>  draft on the BEHAVE mailing list.
>
>  > We can fix it in 01 version by putting v6ops into the draft name.
>
>  Renaming a draft starts it at -00.
>
>
>  Anyway, regarding your draft:  it says that the CGN has to terminate
>  the 6-over-4 tunnel.  Couldn't some other device -- not necessarily
>  the CGN -- terminate that tunnel?  If so, then I believe your
>  proposal is very much just a NAT44 ("CGN") and a 6-over-4 tunnel
>  from the in-home gateway to some device that terminates the
>  tunnel and has IPv6 Internet connectivity.  This tunnel concentrator
>  might belong to the ISP providing IPv4 service, but it might also be
>  offered by someone else on the Internet (as a separate service), in
>  which case the 6-over-4 tunnel might actually go *across* the
>  service provider's NAT44 ("CGN").
>
>  -d
>
>
>  > Best regards,
>  >
>  > Sheng
>  >
>  > >-----Original Message-----
>  > >From: Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco.com]
>  > >Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:55 PM
>  > >To: Sheng Jiang
>  > >Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Brian Carpenter'
>  > >Subject: Re: Agenda issue
>  > >
>  > >OK. I truly wish you had put the working group moniker in the
>  > >draft name (individual submission to a named working group),
>  > >as it is hard to keep track of work in a working group with
>  > >individual submission names.
>  > >
>  > >On Mar 4, 2009, at 7:00 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:
>  > >
>  > >> Hi, Fred,
>  > >>
>  > >> We have submitted a new draft,
>  > >draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00. I think
>  > >> we are already on the vows agenda. Are we? If no yet, please
>  > >count us
>  > >> in.
>  > >> Thanks.
>  > >>
>  > >> Best regards,
>  > >>
>  > >> Sheng
>  > >>
>  > >>> -----Original Message-----
>  > >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>  > >>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
>  > >>> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:16 AM
>  > >>> To: IPv6 Operations
>  > >>> Subject: Agenda issue
>  > >>>
>  > >>> I have gotten a number of folks asking for time on the
>  > >agenda, but I
>  > >>> have a problem:
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19268 Sep 10 05:33 draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-
>  > >>> guard-01.txt
>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   61870 Sep 29 08:52 draft-miyata-v6ops-
>  > >>> snatpt-02.txt
>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48468 Oct  1 10:58 draft-endo-v6ops-
>  > >>> dnsproxy-01.txt
>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   43841 Oct 15 10:48 draft-ietf-v6ops-
>  > >>> tunnel-
>  > >>> security-concerns-
>  > >>> 01.txt
>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   18562 Oct 15 10:48
>  > draft-krishnan-v6ops-
>  > >>> teredo-update-04.txt
>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   53090 Oct 30 10:22
>  > >draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-
>  > >>> router-03.txt
>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   36662 Nov  3 10:15
>  > >draft-bajko-v6ops-port-
>  > >>> restricted-ipaddr-a
>  > >>> ssign-02.txt
>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48973 Nov  3 11:06
>  > draft-luo-v6ops-6man-
>  > >>> shim6-lbam-00.txt
>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   30429 Nov  3 14:26 draft-chown-v6ops-
>  > >>> rogue-
>  > >>> ra-02.txt
>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred  134587 Nov  3 16:14
>  > >>> draft-thaler-v6ops- teredo-extensions-02.tx t
>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   16462 Feb 17 14:52
>  > draft-rgaglian-v6ops-
>  > >>> v6inixp-01.txt
>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred    9716 Feb 18 08:01
>  > draft-denis-v6ops-nat-
>  > >>> addrsel-00.txt
>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   41369 Feb 23 22:05 draft-bnss-v6ops-
>  > >>> upnp-00.txt
>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19211 Mar  4 14:11
>  > >draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-
>  > >>> conf-stats-00.txt
>  > >>>
>  > >>>
>  > >>> I see four new drafts post-Minneapolis. The Rogue RA and Teredo
>  > >>> drafts, whose last call completed several months ago and
>  > >the write-up
>  > >>> is awaiting new drafts, don't have new drafts.
>  > >>>
>  > >>> Hello? Anyone out there? I need new drafts (cut-off date
>  > is Friday)
>  > >>> for anything folks expect to discuss in the WG meeting...
>  > >>>
>  > >>
>  > >
>  >
>  >
>
>


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From: "Dan Wing" <dwing@cisco.com>
To: "'Brian Carpenter'" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: "'Sheng Jiang'" <shengjiang@huawei.com>, "'IPv6 Operations'" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "'Brian Carpenter'" <brian@cs.auckland.ac.nz>, <guoseu@huawei.com>
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Subject: RE: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 13:22:39 -0800
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] 
> Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 11:26 AM
> To: Dan Wing
> Cc: Sheng Jiang; IPv6 Operations; Brian Carpenter; guoseu@huawei.com
> Subject: Re: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00
> 
> Dan,
> 
> We're describing a scenario. Obviously, there are other similar
> scenarios.

I had asked my question learn if there is benefit to have the ISP's 
NAT44 also terminate the IPv6-over-IPv4 tunnel.

> That's why v6ops seems like the obvious place for a 
> first discussion, imho.

I concur.

-d


>    Brian
> 
> On 3/6/09, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com> wrote:
> > > -----Original Message-----
> >  > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> >  > [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
> >  > Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 1:29 AM
> >  > To: 'Fred Baker'
> >  > Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Brian Carpenter'
> >  > Subject: RE: Agenda issue
> >  >
> >  > For sure. We know the draft name rules. When we wrote the
> >  > draft, we were not sure
> >  > which WG it should be submitted. It seems relevant to both
> >  > v6ops and behave.
> >
> >  As a BEHAVE co-chair, I haven't seen a request for agenda time
> >  for draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00, nor any discussion about the
> >  draft on the BEHAVE mailing list.
> >
> >  > We can fix it in 01 version by putting v6ops into the draft name.
> >
> >  Renaming a draft starts it at -00.
> >
> >
> >  Anyway, regarding your draft:  it says that the CGN has to 
> terminate
> >  the 6-over-4 tunnel.  Couldn't some other device -- not necessarily
> >  the CGN -- terminate that tunnel?  If so, then I believe your
> >  proposal is very much just a NAT44 ("CGN") and a 6-over-4 tunnel
> >  from the in-home gateway to some device that terminates the
> >  tunnel and has IPv6 Internet connectivity.  This tunnel 
> concentrator
> >  might belong to the ISP providing IPv4 service, but it 
> might also be
> >  offered by someone else on the Internet (as a separate service), in
> >  which case the 6-over-4 tunnel might actually go *across* the
> >  service provider's NAT44 ("CGN").
> >
> >  -d
> >
> >
> >  > Best regards,
> >  >
> >  > Sheng
> >  >
> >  > >-----Original Message-----
> >  > >From: Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco.com]
> >  > >Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:55 PM
> >  > >To: Sheng Jiang
> >  > >Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Brian Carpenter'
> >  > >Subject: Re: Agenda issue
> >  > >
> >  > >OK. I truly wish you had put the working group moniker in the
> >  > >draft name (individual submission to a named working group),
> >  > >as it is hard to keep track of work in a working group with
> >  > >individual submission names.
> >  > >
> >  > >On Mar 4, 2009, at 7:00 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:
> >  > >
> >  > >> Hi, Fred,
> >  > >>
> >  > >> We have submitted a new draft,
> >  > >draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00. I think
> >  > >> we are already on the vows agenda. Are we? If no yet, please
> >  > >count us
> >  > >> in.
> >  > >> Thanks.
> >  > >>
> >  > >> Best regards,
> >  > >>
> >  > >> Sheng
> >  > >>
> >  > >>> -----Original Message-----
> >  > >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> >  > >>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
> >  > >>> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:16 AM
> >  > >>> To: IPv6 Operations
> >  > >>> Subject: Agenda issue
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>> I have gotten a number of folks asking for time on the
> >  > >agenda, but I
> >  > >>> have a problem:
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19268 Sep 10 05:33 
> draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-
> >  > >>> guard-01.txt
> >  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   61870 Sep 29 08:52 
> draft-miyata-v6ops-
> >  > >>> snatpt-02.txt
> >  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48468 Oct  1 10:58 
> draft-endo-v6ops-
> >  > >>> dnsproxy-01.txt
> >  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   43841 Oct 15 10:48 
> draft-ietf-v6ops-
> >  > >>> tunnel-
> >  > >>> security-concerns-
> >  > >>> 01.txt
> >  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   18562 Oct 15 10:48
> >  > draft-krishnan-v6ops-
> >  > >>> teredo-update-04.txt
> >  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   53090 Oct 30 10:22
> >  > >draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-
> >  > >>> router-03.txt
> >  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   36662 Nov  3 10:15
> >  > >draft-bajko-v6ops-port-
> >  > >>> restricted-ipaddr-a
> >  > >>> ssign-02.txt
> >  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48973 Nov  3 11:06
> >  > draft-luo-v6ops-6man-
> >  > >>> shim6-lbam-00.txt
> >  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   30429 Nov  3 14:26 
> draft-chown-v6ops-
> >  > >>> rogue-
> >  > >>> ra-02.txt
> >  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred  134587 Nov  3 16:14
> >  > >>> draft-thaler-v6ops- teredo-extensions-02.tx t
> >  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   16462 Feb 17 14:52
> >  > draft-rgaglian-v6ops-
> >  > >>> v6inixp-01.txt
> >  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred    9716 Feb 18 08:01
> >  > draft-denis-v6ops-nat-
> >  > >>> addrsel-00.txt
> >  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   41369 Feb 23 22:05 
> draft-bnss-v6ops-
> >  > >>> upnp-00.txt
> >  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19211 Mar  4 14:11
> >  > >draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-
> >  > >>> conf-stats-00.txt
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>> I see four new drafts post-Minneapolis. The Rogue RA 
> and Teredo
> >  > >>> drafts, whose last call completed several months ago and
> >  > >the write-up
> >  > >>> is awaiting new drafts, don't have new drafts.
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>> Hello? Anyone out there? I need new drafts (cut-off date
> >  > is Friday)
> >  > >>> for anything folks expect to discuss in the WG meeting...
> >  > >>>
> >  > >>
> >  > >
> >  >
> >  >
> >
> >



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Subject: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Date: Fri, 6 Mar 2009 17:27:17 -0500
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04.txt

Sorry, we forgot that the -00 submission for I-D's was March 4th, 2009
and thus did not release a draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-00.txt.  As
folks may know this draft is a work item of the v6ops WG as of the
Minneapolis IETF during November 2008.  Soon as IETF opens up -00
submission again during the March IETF, we will submit the -00 version
of this draft.  We didn't want to wait any longer to release this new
version so that folks could get a few weeks of review before IETF 74.

Gross items taken care of in this version.

1. Added DS-Lite section to the draft.
2. Added text to cater to Brian Carpenter's comment that the CPE Rtr
should not hard code it's data forwarding table to existing 200::/3
prefix.
3. Added more explanatory text to strong host model portion of the
document to address question raised by Dave Thaler at the mike during
IETF 73.
4. Augmented the Abstract to cater to comments from the mike during IETF
73 as to how other task forces may use this document.
5. Added ND Proxy section catering to comments from Teemu.

Hemant & Wes


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From hayes3@smartforce.com  Fri Mar  6 22:47:24 2009
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From goodman@tiny.net  Sat Mar  7 00:16:28 2009
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From novaktxkcqs@amocofcu.org  Sat Mar  7 03:44:32 2009
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                        <p style="font-family:Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size:9px; color:#666666;">
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From mattshrake@painewetzel.com  Sat Mar  7 08:54:23 2009
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sat Mar  7 14:11:16 2009
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<div class=3D"Section1">

<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">This is an effort to get a jabber scribe and a =
notetaker
in advance of the meeting.<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3D"MsoPlainText"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3D"MsoPlainText">We=92ll need ones for of Monday and another =
for Friday, so if you feel like contributing, please =
volunteer!</p></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-70-458294633--


From wilfried.drijboomf@telus.com  Sat Mar  7 15:56:24 2009
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From: "Julian Busby" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
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Subject: Emporio Armani cheaper than you could imagine!
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From rjb@dobil.com  Sun Mar  8 04:09:31 2009
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From bibbib77@ms55.hinet.net  Sun Mar  8 12:45:32 2009
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From: "Miguel Moses" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
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Subject: IWC better than you could imagine!
Date: Sun, 08 Mar 2009 15:46:03 -0500
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From jeffr@activeinfosystems.com  Sun Mar  8 13:31:58 2009
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                        </p>

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From omar.engineeringo@afpc.net.sy  Sun Mar  8 13:49:26 2009
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sun Mar  8 19:56:48 2009
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Date: Mon, 09 Mar 2009 10:51:35 +0800
From: Sheng Jiang <shengjiang@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00
In-reply-to: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105A93278@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com>
To: "'Templin, Fred L'" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>, 'Dan Wing' <dwing@cisco.com>
Cc: 'IPv6 Operations' <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, guoseu@huawei.com, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
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Hi, Templin,

Yes, the mechanisms described in VET are possible to be used in our proposed
incremental v4/v6 transition CGN. We would mention it when we resubmit our draft
with v6ops in the draft name later. 

Many thanks and best regards,

Sheng

>-----Original Message-----
>From: Templin, Fred L [mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com] 
>Sent: Saturday, March 07, 2009 12:02 AM
>To: Sheng Jiang; Dan Wing
>Cc: IPv6 Operations; guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>Subject: RE: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00
>
>For the case of IPv6, I think what you are calling "DS HG" is 
>pretty much the same as what is called "Enterprise Border 
>Router (EBR)" and the CGN is pretty much the same as what is 
>called: "Enterprise Border Gateway (EBG)" in VET 
>('draft-templin-autoconf-dhcp').
>You could also check the diagrams in RANGER to see if they 
>satisfy your needs ('draft-templin-ranger').
>
>The CPE people might also want to check VET, which is really a 
>superset of ISATAP.
>
>Fred
>fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 8:04 PM
>> To: 'Dan Wing'
>> Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com
>> Subject: RE: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00
>> 
>> >From: Dan Wing [mailto:dwing@cisco.com]
>> 
>> >> We can fix it in 01 version by putting v6ops into the draft name.
>> >
>> >Renaming a draft starts it at -00.
>> 
>> Thanks, we can rename it with 00 and WG name.
>> 
>> >Anyway, regarding your draft:  it says that the CGN has to 
>terminate 
>> >the 6-over-4 tunnel.  Couldn't some other device -- not necessarily 
>> >the CGN -- terminate that tunnel?  If so, then I believe your 
>> >proposal is very much just a NAT44 ("CGN") and a 6-over-4 
>tunnel from 
>> >the in-home gateway to some device that terminates the 
>tunnel and has 
>> >IPv6 Internet connectivity.
>> >This tunnel concentrator might belong to the ISP providing
>> >IPv4 service, but it might also be offered by someone else on the 
>> >Internet (as a separate service), in which case the
>> >6-over-4 tunnel might actually go *across* the service provider's 
>> >NAT44 ("CGN").
>> 
>> Yes, your understanding is right. NAT44 and 6-over-4 tunnel can be
>splitted. They
>> are separate technologies.
>> 
>> In our proposal, we suggest to integrate NAT44 and 6-over-4 tunnel
>into a same
>> device box (CGN) so that ISPs can deploy it with a clear IPv6
>migration strategy.
>> Here, we may extend the concept of CGN a little bit. When we talk
>about CGN, we are
>> actually referring to a carrier-grade device, which integrates NAT
>functions and
>> other integrated technologies.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Sheng
>> 
>> >> >-----Original Message-----
>> >> >From: Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco.com]
>> >> >Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:55 PM
>> >> >To: Sheng Jiang
>> >> >Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Brian Carpenter'
>> >> >Subject: Re: Agenda issue
>> >> >
>> >> >OK. I truly wish you had put the working group moniker in the 
>> >> >draft name (individual submission to a named working 
>group), as it 
>> >> >is hard to keep track of work in a working group with individual 
>> >> >submission names.
>> >> >
>> >> >On Mar 4, 2009, at 7:00 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> Hi, Fred,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> We have submitted a new draft,
>> >> >draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00. I think
>> >> >> we are already on the vows agenda. Are we? If no yet, please
>> >> >count us
>> >> >> in.
>> >> >> Thanks.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Best regards,
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Sheng
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> -----Original Message-----
>> >> >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>> >> >>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
>> >> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:16 AM
>> >> >>> To: IPv6 Operations
>> >> >>> Subject: Agenda issue
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I have gotten a number of folks asking for time on the
>> >> >agenda, but I
>> >> >>> have a problem:
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19268 Sep 10 05:33
>> >draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-
>> >> >>> guard-01.txt
>> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   61870 Sep 29 08:52
>draft-miyata-v6ops-
>> >> >>> snatpt-02.txt
>> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48468 Oct  1 10:58 
>draft-endo-v6ops-
>> >> >>> dnsproxy-01.txt
>> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   43841 Oct 15 10:48 
>draft-ietf-v6ops-
>> >> >>> tunnel-
>> >> >>> security-concerns-
>> >> >>> 01.txt
>> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   18562 Oct 15 10:48
>> >> draft-krishnan-v6ops-
>> >> >>> teredo-update-04.txt
>> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   53090 Oct 30 10:22
>> >> >draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-
>> >> >>> router-03.txt
>> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   36662 Nov  3 10:15
>> >> >draft-bajko-v6ops-port-
>> >> >>> restricted-ipaddr-a
>> >> >>> ssign-02.txt
>> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48973 Nov  3 11:06
>> >> draft-luo-v6ops-6man-
>> >> >>> shim6-lbam-00.txt
>> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   30429 Nov  3 14:26
>draft-chown-v6ops-
>> >> >>> rogue-
>> >> >>> ra-02.txt
>> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred  134587 Nov  3 16:14
>> >> >>> draft-thaler-v6ops- teredo-extensions-02.tx t
>> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   16462 Feb 17 14:52
>> >> draft-rgaglian-v6ops-
>> >> >>> v6inixp-01.txt
>> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred    9716 Feb 18 08:01
>> >> draft-denis-v6ops-nat-
>> >> >>> addrsel-00.txt
>> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   41369 Feb 23 22:05 
>draft-bnss-v6ops-
>> >> >>> upnp-00.txt
>> >> >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19211 Mar  4 14:11
>> >> >draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-
>> >> >>> conf-stats-00.txt
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> I see four new drafts post-Minneapolis. The Rogue RA 
>and Teredo 
>> >> >>> drafts, whose last call completed several months ago and
>> >> >the write-up
>> >> >>> is awaiting new drafts, don't have new drafts.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> Hello? Anyone out there? I need new drafts (cut-off date
>> >> is Friday)
>> >> >>> for anything folks expect to discuss in the WG meeting...
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> 
>



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Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 09:47:46 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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To: Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com>
CC: 'Sheng Jiang' <shengjiang@huawei.com>,  'IPv6 Operations' <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, guoseu@huawei.com
Subject: Re: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00
References: <7FAE1435-0FE1-4C23-B8BF-151D58AF5341@cisco.com> <01d401c99d74$c9600490$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <110c01c99e03$c46343a0$c2f0200a@cisco.com> <60fc593c0903061126v42ec8c17x70df80562730b40c@mail.gmail.com> <142501c99ea1$ada38d70$c2f0200a@cisco.com>
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Dan,

Sorry if my previous response was rather brief; I was supposed
to be on vacation for a couple of days.

Below..

On 2009-03-07 10:22, Dan Wing wrote:
>  
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Brian Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] 
>> Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 11:26 AM
>> To: Dan Wing
>> Cc: Sheng Jiang; IPv6 Operations; Brian Carpenter; guoseu@huawei.com
>> Subject: Re: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00
>>
>> Dan,
>>
>> We're describing a scenario. Obviously, there are other similar
>> scenarios.
> 
> I had asked my question learn if there is benefit to have the ISP's 
> NAT44 also terminate the IPv6-over-IPv4 tunnel.

As Sheng suggested, the idea is operational convenience by combining
the two functions in one box.  I think we'd like to make IPv6 support
seem like an easy step for an ISP that has decided they have to deploy
NAT anyway. If you end up with all the specifics of a given subscriber
being handled by the same box, there should be operational and
administrative savings.

    Brian

> 
>> That's why v6ops seems like the obvious place for a 
>> first discussion, imho.
> 
> I concur.
> 
> -d
> 
> 
>>    Brian
>>
>> On 3/6/09, Dan Wing <dwing@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>  > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>>>  > [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Sheng Jiang
>>>  > Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 1:29 AM
>>>  > To: 'Fred Baker'
>>>  > Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Brian Carpenter'
>>>  > Subject: RE: Agenda issue
>>>  >
>>>  > For sure. We know the draft name rules. When we wrote the
>>>  > draft, we were not sure
>>>  > which WG it should be submitted. It seems relevant to both
>>>  > v6ops and behave.
>>>
>>>  As a BEHAVE co-chair, I haven't seen a request for agenda time
>>>  for draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00, nor any discussion about the
>>>  draft on the BEHAVE mailing list.
>>>
>>>  > We can fix it in 01 version by putting v6ops into the draft name.
>>>
>>>  Renaming a draft starts it at -00.
>>>
>>>
>>>  Anyway, regarding your draft:  it says that the CGN has to 
>> terminate
>>>  the 6-over-4 tunnel.  Couldn't some other device -- not necessarily
>>>  the CGN -- terminate that tunnel?  If so, then I believe your
>>>  proposal is very much just a NAT44 ("CGN") and a 6-over-4 tunnel
>>>  from the in-home gateway to some device that terminates the
>>>  tunnel and has IPv6 Internet connectivity.  This tunnel 
>> concentrator
>>>  might belong to the ISP providing IPv4 service, but it 
>> might also be
>>>  offered by someone else on the Internet (as a separate service), in
>>>  which case the 6-over-4 tunnel might actually go *across* the
>>>  service provider's NAT44 ("CGN").
>>>
>>>  -d
>>>
>>>
>>>  > Best regards,
>>>  >
>>>  > Sheng
>>>  >
>>>  > >-----Original Message-----
>>>  > >From: Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco.com]
>>>  > >Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 4:55 PM
>>>  > >To: Sheng Jiang
>>>  > >Cc: 'IPv6 Operations'; 'Brian Carpenter'
>>>  > >Subject: Re: Agenda issue
>>>  > >
>>>  > >OK. I truly wish you had put the working group moniker in the
>>>  > >draft name (individual submission to a named working group),
>>>  > >as it is hard to keep track of work in a working group with
>>>  > >individual submission names.
>>>  > >
>>>  > >On Mar 4, 2009, at 7:00 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:
>>>  > >
>>>  > >> Hi, Fred,
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >> We have submitted a new draft,
>>>  > >draft-jiang-incremental-CGN-00. I think
>>>  > >> we are already on the vows agenda. Are we? If no yet, please
>>>  > >count us
>>>  > >> in.
>>>  > >> Thanks.
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >> Best regards,
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >> Sheng
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >>> -----Original Message-----
>>>  > >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>>>  > >>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
>>>  > >>> Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2009 10:16 AM
>>>  > >>> To: IPv6 Operations
>>>  > >>> Subject: Agenda issue
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> I have gotten a number of folks asking for time on the
>>>  > >agenda, but I
>>>  > >>> have a problem:
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19268 Sep 10 05:33 
>> draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-
>>>  > >>> guard-01.txt
>>>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   61870 Sep 29 08:52 
>> draft-miyata-v6ops-
>>>  > >>> snatpt-02.txt
>>>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48468 Oct  1 10:58 
>> draft-endo-v6ops-
>>>  > >>> dnsproxy-01.txt
>>>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   43841 Oct 15 10:48 
>> draft-ietf-v6ops-
>>>  > >>> tunnel-
>>>  > >>> security-concerns-
>>>  > >>> 01.txt
>>>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   18562 Oct 15 10:48
>>>  > draft-krishnan-v6ops-
>>>  > >>> teredo-update-04.txt
>>>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   53090 Oct 30 10:22
>>>  > >draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-
>>>  > >>> router-03.txt
>>>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   36662 Nov  3 10:15
>>>  > >draft-bajko-v6ops-port-
>>>  > >>> restricted-ipaddr-a
>>>  > >>> ssign-02.txt
>>>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   48973 Nov  3 11:06
>>>  > draft-luo-v6ops-6man-
>>>  > >>> shim6-lbam-00.txt
>>>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   30429 Nov  3 14:26 
>> draft-chown-v6ops-
>>>  > >>> rogue-
>>>  > >>> ra-02.txt
>>>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred  134587 Nov  3 16:14
>>>  > >>> draft-thaler-v6ops- teredo-extensions-02.tx t
>>>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   16462 Feb 17 14:52
>>>  > draft-rgaglian-v6ops-
>>>  > >>> v6inixp-01.txt
>>>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred    9716 Feb 18 08:01
>>>  > draft-denis-v6ops-nat-
>>>  > >>> addrsel-00.txt
>>>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   41369 Feb 23 22:05 
>> draft-bnss-v6ops-
>>>  > >>> upnp-00.txt
>>>  > >>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   19211 Mar  4 14:11
>>>  > >draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-
>>>  > >>> conf-stats-00.txt
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> I see four new drafts post-Minneapolis. The Rogue RA 
>> and Teredo
>>>  > >>> drafts, whose last call completed several months ago and
>>>  > >the write-up
>>>  > >>> is awaiting new drafts, don't have new drafts.
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>> Hello? Anyone out there? I need new drafts (cut-off date
>>>  > is Friday)
>>>  > >>> for anything folks expect to discuss in the WG meeting...
>>>  > >>>
>>>  > >>
>>>  > >
>>>  >
>>>  >
>>>
>>>
> 
> 


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar  9 15:28:59 2009
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Date: Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:24:20 +0000
From: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>, Stig Venaas <Stig.Venaas@uninett.no>
Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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On Wed, Mar 04, 2009 at 06:16:16PM -0800, Fred Baker wrote:
> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   30429 Nov  3 14:26 draft-chown-v6ops-rogue- 
> ra-02.txt

Stig and I have released a new version, in which we attempt to answer the
list comments:

* Switched focus to accidental RAs - Jinmei
* Clarified valid lifetime
* Reworded DHCP gateway text, noted new draft by Thomas
* Added isolation text - Bob H
* SeND deployment issues expanded - Thomas
* DHCPv6 gateway reworded - emphasised shifting problem

Plus other minor edits and reoriganising.

Tim

-- snip

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. 

        Title           : Rogue IPv6 Router Advertisement Problem Statement
        Author(s)       : T. Chown, S. Venaas
        Filename        : draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra-03.txt
        Pages           : 16
        Date            : 2009-03-09

When deploying IPv6, whether IPv6-only or dual-stack, routers are
configured to send IPv6 Router Advertisements to convey information
to nodes that enable them to autoconfigure on the network.  This
information includes the implied default router address taken from
the observed source address of the Router Advertisement (RA) message,
as well as on-link prefix information.  However, unintended
misconfigurations by users or administrators, or possibly malicious
attacks on the network, may lead to bogus RAs being present, which in
turn can cause operational problems for hosts on the network.  In
this draft we summarise the scenarios in which rogue RAs may be
observed and present a list of possible solutions to the problem.  We
focus on the unintended causes of rogue RAs in the text.  The goal of
this text is to be Informational, and as such to present a framework
around which solutions can be proposed and discussed.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra-03.txt



From cmschiao@ms24.hinet.net  Tue Mar 10 00:16:17 2009
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Subject: Rep watches make great gifts
Message-ID: <Ytmi753ndm369Weaaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
From: "Shawn Louis" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
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To: "Isidro Rhodes" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 2009 03:16:36 -0500

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From mendoza@lhac.com  Tue Mar 10 05:31:44 2009
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From bernhard.kranz@spk-schrobenhausen.de  Tue Mar 10 09:24:46 2009
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Mar 10 13:01:50 2009
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   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04.txt
  "IPv6 CPE Router Recommendations", Hemant Singh, Wes Beebee, 6-Mar-09, 
  <draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04.txt> 

   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nishitani-cgn-01.txt
  "Common Functions of Large Scale NAT (LSN)", Tomohiro Nishitani, Shin 
  Miyakawa, Akira Nakagawa, Hiroyuki Ashida, 19-Nov-08, 
  <draft-nishitani-cgn-01.txt> 

   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam-00.txt
  "Load Balancing based on IPv6 Anycast and pseudo-Mobility", Wanming Luo, 
  XiaoDong Lee, Wei Mao, Mei Wang, 3-Nov-08, 
  <draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam-00.txt> 

   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rgaglian-v6ops-v6inixp-01.txt
  "IPv6 Deployment in Internet Exchange Points (IXPs)", Roque Gagliano, 
  17-Feb-09, <draft-rgaglian-v6ops-v6inixp-01.txt> 

   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-denis-v6ops-nat-addrsel-00.txt
  "Problems with IPv6 source address selection and IPv4 NATs", Remi 
  Denis-Courmont, 18-Feb-09, <draft-denis-v6ops-nat-addrsel-00.txt> 

   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bnss-v6ops-upnp-01.txt
  "IPv6 Services for UPnP Residential Networks", Mark Baugher, Erwan Nedellec, 
  Mika Saaranen, Barbara Stark, 8-Mar-09, <draft-bnss-v6ops-upnp-01.txt> 

   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00.txt
  "An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition", Sheng Jiang, 
  Dayong Guo, 1-Mar-09, <draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00.txt> 

   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00.txt
  "6to4 Qualification", Nathan Ward, 3-Mar-09, 
  <draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00.txt> 

   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nward-ipv6-autoconfig-filtering-ethernet-00.txt
  "IPv6 Autoconfig Filtering on Ethernet Switches", Nathan Ward, 4-Mar-09, 
  <draft-nward-ipv6-autoconfig-filtering-ethernet-00.txt> 

   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-conf-stats-01.txt
  "IPv6 Deployment and Statistics at a Conference", Eric Vyncke, Gunter Van de 
  Velde, 8-Mar-09, <draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-conf-stats-01.txt> 



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    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04.txt
   "IPv6 CPE Router Recommendations", Hemant Singh, Wes Beebee, 6- 
Mar-09,
   <draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04.txt>

    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam-00.txt
   "Load Balancing based on IPv6 Anycast and pseudo-Mobility", Wanming  
Luo,
   XiaoDong Lee, Wei Mao, Mei Wang, 3-Nov-08,
   <draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam-00.txt>

    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rgaglian-v6ops-v6inixp-01.txt
   "IPv6 Deployment in Internet Exchange Points (IXPs)", Roque Gagliano,
   17-Feb-09, <draft-rgaglian-v6ops-v6inixp-01.txt>

    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-denis-v6ops-nat-addrsel-00.txt
   "Problems with IPv6 source address selection and IPv4 NATs", Remi
   Denis-Courmont, 18-Feb-09, <draft-denis-v6ops-nat-addrsel-00.txt>

    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bnss-v6ops-upnp-01.txt
   "IPv6 Services for UPnP Residential Networks", Mark Baugher, Erwan  
Nedellec,
   Mika Saaranen, Barbara Stark, 8-Mar-09, <draft-bnss-v6ops- 
upnp-01.txt>

    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00.txt
   "An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition", Sheng  
Jiang,
   Dayong Guo, 1-Mar-09, <draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00.txt>

    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00.txt
   "6to4 Qualification", Nathan Ward, 3-Mar-09,
   <draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00.txt>

    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nward-ipv6-autoconfig-filtering-ethernet-00.txt
   "IPv6 Autoconfig Filtering on Ethernet Switches", Nathan Ward, 4- 
Mar-09,
   <draft-nward-ipv6-autoconfig-filtering-ethernet-00.txt>

    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-conf-stats-01.txt
   "IPv6 Deployment and Statistics at a Conference", Eric Vyncke,  
Gunter Van de
   Velde, 8-Mar-09, <draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-conf-stats-01.txt>



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Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 09:45:07 +0000
From: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Are there any other documents for the agenda?
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Hi Fred,

Please add:

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra-03.txt
"Rogue IPv6 Router Advertisement Problem Statement"
Tim Chown, Stig Venaas, 9-Mar-09

There would be one slide describing updates and any discussion.

Tim

On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 01:00:52PM -0700, Fred Baker wrote:
>    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04.txt
>   "IPv6 CPE Router Recommendations", Hemant Singh, Wes Beebee, 6- 
> Mar-09,
>   <draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04.txt>
> 
>    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam-00.txt
>   "Load Balancing based on IPv6 Anycast and pseudo-Mobility", Wanming  
> Luo,
>   XiaoDong Lee, Wei Mao, Mei Wang, 3-Nov-08,
>   <draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam-00.txt>
> 
>    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rgaglian-v6ops-v6inixp-01.txt
>   "IPv6 Deployment in Internet Exchange Points (IXPs)", Roque Gagliano,
>   17-Feb-09, <draft-rgaglian-v6ops-v6inixp-01.txt>
> 
>    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-denis-v6ops-nat-addrsel-00.txt
>   "Problems with IPv6 source address selection and IPv4 NATs", Remi
>   Denis-Courmont, 18-Feb-09, <draft-denis-v6ops-nat-addrsel-00.txt>
> 
>    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bnss-v6ops-upnp-01.txt
>   "IPv6 Services for UPnP Residential Networks", Mark Baugher, Erwan  
> Nedellec,
>   Mika Saaranen, Barbara Stark, 8-Mar-09, <draft-bnss-v6ops- 
> upnp-01.txt>
> 
>    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00.txt
>   "An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition", Sheng  
> Jiang,
>   Dayong Guo, 1-Mar-09, <draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00.txt>
> 
>    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00.txt
>   "6to4 Qualification", Nathan Ward, 3-Mar-09,
>   <draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00.txt>
> 
>    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nward-ipv6-autoconfig-filtering-ethernet-00.txt
>   "IPv6 Autoconfig Filtering on Ethernet Switches", Nathan Ward, 4- 
> Mar-09,
>   <draft-nward-ipv6-autoconfig-filtering-ethernet-00.txt>
> 
>    http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-conf-stats-01.txt
>   "IPv6 Deployment and Statistics at a Conference", Eric Vyncke,  
> Gunter Van de
>   Velde, 8-Mar-09, <draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-conf-stats-01.txt>
> 
> 

-- 
Tim




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Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
To: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: Are there any other documents for the agenda?
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 09:13:54 -0700
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OK

On Mar 11, 2009, at 2:45 AM, Tim Chown wrote:

> Hi Fred,
>
> Please add:
>
> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra-03.txt
> "Rogue IPv6 Router Advertisement Problem Statement"
> Tim Chown, Stig Venaas, 9-Mar-09
>
> There would be one slide describing updates and any discussion.
>
> Tim
>
> On Tue, Mar 10, 2009 at 01:00:52PM -0700, Fred Baker wrote:
>>   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04.txt
>>  "IPv6 CPE Router Recommendations", Hemant Singh, Wes Beebee, 6-
>> Mar-09,
>>  <draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04.txt>
>>
>>   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam-00.txt
>>  "Load Balancing based on IPv6 Anycast and pseudo-Mobility", Wanming
>> Luo,
>>  XiaoDong Lee, Wei Mao, Mei Wang, 3-Nov-08,
>>  <draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam-00.txt>
>>
>>   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-rgaglian-v6ops-v6inixp-01.txt
>>  "IPv6 Deployment in Internet Exchange Points (IXPs)", Roque  
>> Gagliano,
>>  17-Feb-09, <draft-rgaglian-v6ops-v6inixp-01.txt>
>>
>>   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-denis-v6ops-nat-addrsel-00.txt
>>  "Problems with IPv6 source address selection and IPv4 NATs", Remi
>>  Denis-Courmont, 18-Feb-09, <draft-denis-v6ops-nat-addrsel-00.txt>
>>
>>   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-bnss-v6ops-upnp-01.txt
>>  "IPv6 Services for UPnP Residential Networks", Mark Baugher, Erwan
>> Nedellec,
>>  Mika Saaranen, Barbara Stark, 8-Mar-09, <draft-bnss-v6ops-
>> upnp-01.txt>
>>
>>   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00.txt
>>  "An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition", Sheng
>> Jiang,
>>  Dayong Guo, 1-Mar-09, <draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00.txt>
>>
>>   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00.txt
>>  "6to4 Qualification", Nathan Ward, 3-Mar-09,
>>  <draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00.txt>
>>
>>   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-nward-ipv6-autoconfig-filtering-ethernet-00.txt
>>  "IPv6 Autoconfig Filtering on Ethernet Switches", Nathan Ward, 4-
>> Mar-09,
>>  <draft-nward-ipv6-autoconfig-filtering-ethernet-00.txt>
>>
>>   http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-conf-stats-01.txt
>>  "IPv6 Deployment and Statistics at a Conference", Eric Vyncke,
>> Gunter Van de
>>  Velde, 8-Mar-09, <draft-vyncke-vdv-v6ops-conf-stats-01.txt>
>>
>>
>
> -- 
> Tim
>
>
>



From cunningham@ucr-sa.com  Wed Mar 11 13:43:07 2009
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To: "Shawn Hinton" <tls@ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2009 16:42:33 -0500
Subject: Affordable rep watches
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From henry@cmrfund.com  Wed Mar 11 20:10:00 2009
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Subject: The affordable watch alternative
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From lawrence@lpa.net  Thu Mar 12 04:33:53 2009
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Subject: Rep or Original?
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There are things in life that seem unattainable. Owning a fine watch doesn't have to be one of them.
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From khumusibhopalamiln@alvazarat.org  Thu Mar 12 05:14:03 2009
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Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 17:35:03 -0400
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From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
CC: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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Thanks for this new draft. I have a few comments:
1. The statements around strong hosts in 5.3.2 are confusing to me.
 - I had to go searching for what a strong host is -- perhaps a
reference to RFC 1122 would be useful, if that is the right reference?
 - The statements in the current version (section 5.3.2) are: "The
Unnumbered model is incompatible with the strong host model on the CPE
router. The unnumbered model may be inappropriate for use with certain
deployments where a device that uses the strong host model can operate
as a CPE Router." It's not clear to me just what it is that's
incompatible vs. inappropriate. Could this be clarified a little?

2. Has any thought been given to the role a CPE router should play in
supporting a local domain name scheme? Most routers today do have their
own DNS function, and send their own IP address to LAN hosts as the DNS
server to use. Many people have said (in various places) how undesirable
it will be for people to have to type IPv6 addresses when they're
accessing a particular LAN host, and how nice it would be if all LAN
hosts could be accessed by URLs, with the CPE router providing
resolution. It's been suggested that some form of Dynamic DNS might be
used, for hosts to tell the CPE Router what name they want to use, and
the IP address(es) associated with that name. The problem is that many
forms of Dynamic DNS currently exist, so it isn't really "standard". It
would be nice if there were some standard recommendation for hosts to
create entries in the CPE router DNS function.

3. Please change "DSL Forum" to "Broadband Forum" in the Abstract. =20

Thanks,
Barbara

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Hemant Singh (shemant)
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 5:27 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04.txt

Sorry, we forgot that the -00 submission for I-D's was March 4th, 2009
and thus did not release a draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-00.txt.  As
folks may know this draft is a work item of the v6ops WG as of the
Minneapolis IETF during November 2008.  Soon as IETF opens up -00
submission again during the March IETF, we will submit the -00 version
of this draft.  We didn't want to wait any longer to release this new
version so that folks could get a few weeks of review before IETF 74.

Gross items taken care of in this version.

1. Added DS-Lite section to the draft.
2. Added text to cater to Brian Carpenter's comment that the CPE Rtr
should not hard code it's data forwarding table to existing 200::/3
prefix.
3. Added more explanatory text to strong host model portion of the
document to address question raised by Dave Thaler at the mike during
IETF 73.
4. Augmented the Abstract to cater to comments from the mike during IETF
73 as to how other task forces may use this document.
5. Added ND Proxy section catering to comments from Teemu.

Hemant & Wes


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Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 2009 18:02:45 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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-----Original Message-----
From: Stark, Barbara [mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 2009 5:35 PM
To: Hemant Singh (shemant); IPv6 Operations
Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft

Thanks for this new draft. I have a few comments:
1. The statements around strong hosts in 5.3.2 are confusing to me.
 - I had to go searching for what a strong host is -- perhaps a
reference to RFC 1122 would be useful, if that is the right reference?
 - The statements in the current version (section 5.3.2) are: "The
Unnumbered model is incompatible with the strong host model on the CPE
router. The unnumbered model may be inappropriate for use with certain
deployments where a device that uses the strong host model can operate
as a CPE Router." It's not clear to me just what it is that's
incompatible vs. inappropriate. Could this be clarified a little?

<hs>=20
If you scanned the archives of v6ops, the incompatibility has been
clarified. Anyway, here is a summary of what transpired and why this
text.  Some division of NTT ( I think its NTT West) in Japan uses a
Windows PC in the customer's home where the PC has some patch provided
by the SP to install on the PC and then this PC acts as a CPE Rtr.
These comments in our draft relate to such a deployment and Shin from
NTT asked us to add such a blurb in our draft.  Obviously suck hacked up
router code on Windows will have problems with strong vs. weak host
model.  We didn't want to go into any mode details with this text and
since Shin who raised this issue was fine with our text, we'd like to
leave it like that.
</hs>

2. Has any thought been given to the role a CPE router should play in
supporting a local domain name scheme?=20

<hs>=20
Even in one rev before this rev of the CPE Router, in section 8.6, we
have mentioned local DNS.
[For local DNS queries for configuration, the CPE Router may include a
DNS server to handle local queries.]
</hs>

Most routers today do have their own DNS function, and send their own IP
address to LAN hosts as the DNS server to use. Many people have said (in
various places) how undesirable it will be for people to have to type
IPv6 addresses when they're accessing a particular LAN host, and how
nice it would be if all LAN hosts could be accessed by URLs, with the
CPE router providing resolution. It's been suggested that some form of
Dynamic DNS might be used, for hosts to tell the CPE Router what name
they want to use, and the IP address(es) associated with that name. The
problem is that many forms of Dynamic DNS currently exist, so it isn't
really "standard". It would be nice if there were some standard
recommendation for hosts to create entries in the CPE router DNS
function.

3. Please change "DSL Forum" to "Broadband Forum" in the Abstract. =20

<hs>
Will do - thanks for this correction.

Thanks for the review.

Hemant
</hs>

Thanks,
Barbara



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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 13 17:08:39 2009
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From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Remi,

I am not sure about this statement in your draft:

>    Thus, the transitional (IPv6) address will be used instead of the
>    native (IPv4) address, even though that should have been avoided.

As I recall, the intention was always that IPv6 should be preferred
to IPv4, when both are available. The statement you quote earlier

>    [RFC3484] states that "the use of transitional addresses when native
>    addresses are available [should be avoided]".  

was in my memory intended to refer to IPv6 versus IPv6, and not to
IPv6 versus IPv4.

On that view, the current behaviour is not a mistake. The mistake may
be elsewhere: a black hole in the transitional IPv6 connectivity.

You suggest:

>    Several operating system vendors appear to work around this issue by
>    assigning a global scope to IPv4 address.  Thus, rule 2 is no longer
>    discriminating against the IPv4 address pair.

True, but that is against the intention of discriminating in favour
of IPv6. So while some vendors may have chosen this approach, it isn't
what we wanted.

I don't see why we'd fix an operational problem of black holes
by discriminating in favour of IPv4 NAT. That would just serve to
reduce the incentive to fix the black holes.

> 6.  IPv6 Address Translation
> 
>    The implications of IPv6 Address Translation and protocol translation
>    are left beyond the scope of this document.  However, it can only be
>    recommended that RFC3484 be taken into account when designing such
>    translation systems.

Since ULAs are defined to have global scope, I think there will
be no problem.

     Brian


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 13 20:24:32 2009
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From:	 JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= <Jinmei_Tatuya@isc.org>
To:	 Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
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Subject: draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra-03 (Re: Agenda issue)
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At Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:24:20 +0000,
Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:

> > -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   30429 Nov  3 14:26 draft-chown-v6ops-rogue- 
> > ra-02.txt
> 
> Stig and I have released a new version, in which we attempt to answer the
> list comments:
> 
> * Switched focus to accidental RAs - Jinmei
> * Clarified valid lifetime
> * Reworded DHCP gateway text, noted new draft by Thomas
> * Added isolation text - Bob H
> * SeND deployment issues expanded - Thomas
> * DHCPv6 gateway reworded - emphasised shifting problem
> 
> Plus other minor edits and reoriganising.

I've read the 03 version, and confirmed that my concern on the
previous version was clearly addressed (thanks!).  I don't know the
intended next step of this document, whether to adopt it as a wg item
or to submit it to the IESG, but I support it in either case.

I have some minor (mostly) editorial comments on 03 as follows:

p.8 Section 3.8: I guess the following paragraph were intended to be
out of scope (simply removed?) according to the revised focus of this
document:

   In contrast though, an attacker might use such a tool to learn about
   prefixes being advertised on a link and to deprecate the 'good' RA(s)
   in favour of their bogus RA(s).

p.11 Section 4: I failed to parse the following part.  There is
perhaps missing text between "configuration" and "However"?

   [...]  On that basis the RA snooping proposal, e.g.  RA
   Guard, has merit, while approaches like manual configuration However
   RA Guard is not yet fully defined or available, while only certain
   managed switch equipment may support the required ACLs.

p.12 Section 5.1: I was not sure if the following part is intended to
be out of scope or is just mentioned to compare with the accidental
rogue RA case:

   It is
   thus possible for an attacker to target one or more hosts on a shared
   medium without (potentially) a rogue multicast RA being observed
   elsewhere on the network (e.g. by a monitoring daemon).

If it's the latter, it would be better to clarify the intent.

p.13 Section 5.5: I understand the following text is a revision to
address my previous comment, but technically it's still 100% clear:

   e.g. considering the '2
   hour rule' of Section 5.5.3 of RFC4862 (though this applies to the
   valid lifetime not the router lifetime).  We should ensure that

the 2 hour rule only applies to valid "address" lifetime.  Although
the prefix lifetime doesn't officially use this qualifier (since
a prefix only has "the lifetime"), it could be confusing as it's
normally configured from the valid lifetime field of an RA prefix
information option.  So, I'd clearly say "valid address lifetime".

p.14 Section 6: based on the intent of the revise, I'd rephrase
"security risk" with "robustness issue" or something:

   Adding new DHCPv6 Default Gateway and Prefix Options would allow IPv6
   host configuration by DHCP only, and be a method that IPv4
   administrators are comfortable with (for better or worse), but this
   simply shifts the security risk elsewhere.

And very minor nits follow:

p.4 Section 1: there are duplicate "also"s. I'd remove one of them:

   appears more common in shared wireless environments, it is also seen
   on wired enterprise networks also.

p.4 Section 1: I don't like undefined acronyms:-)

   the RA message.  In addition, rogue RAs can cause hosts to assume
   wrong prefixes for their SLAAC addresses.  In a case where there may

Since this is the only occurrence, I'd simply say "wrong prefixes to
be used for stateless address autoconfiguration".

p.5 Section 2.2: s/an problem/a problem/

   bridging two subnets together, causing an problem similar to VLAN

p.7 Section 3.5: s/send/sends/

   accidentally send out a rogue RA on the network has configured their

p.8 Section 3.7: s/no thus/thus/

   in the filter may become incorrect and no thus no method would be

---
JINMEI, Tatuya
Internet Systems Consortium, Inc.


From janebukwa@yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar 14 03:15:17 2009
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From killerdeal@056.qcx.net  Sat Mar 14 12:45:15 2009
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From ganegumpy@yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar 14 14:11:30 2009
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From: "Dolores Underwood" <eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
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From ganegumpy@yahoo.co.uk  Sat Mar 14 20:01:18 2009
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From lagura@ambergrissolutions.com  Sun Mar 15 00:03:21 2009
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<td style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px" valign="top"><BR>
<span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bolder ; color: #990000"><font color="#990000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" originaltag="yes" style="font-size:14px;"><b>FREE gifts</b></font></span><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" originaltag="yes" size="2" style="font-size: 12px;"> reserved for you: <i>v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org</i></font></td>
<td valign="top"><A HREF="http://piousclear.com/"></A></td>
</tr><tr><td width="58">
<td colspan="2" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px" valign="top">  If you would prefer not to receive future information about special offers from Men's Health, 
<BR>you may <a style="color:#990000; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px; text-decoration: underline;" href="http://piousclear.com/">Unsubscribe</a>. 
<BR><BR>
<BR>Customer Service Department, 33 East Minor Street, Emmaus, PA 18098
<BR><BR>
<BR>Copyright, Men's Health<BR></font></td></tr></table></BODY></HTML>

From kurwajonte@yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar 15 04:55:04 2009
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From: "Dominick Pollock" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
To: "Lenny Langley" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: March promo on watches
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Hello Gloria

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From agnesschinhao@yahoo.co.uk  Sun Mar 15 09:11:08 2009
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From: "Sheena Christie" <tools-team@ietf.org>
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Subject: d1ck increase size huge
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From john.coolahan@120babes.com  Sun Mar 15 09:27:12 2009
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To: <v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: Sales Receipt Amazon
From: VIAGRA . Official Site <v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org>
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<td><A HREF="http://eagerfree.com/"><img alt="Men's Health wirzp" border="0" height="131" src="http://a676.g.akamaitech.net/f/676/773/60m/images.delivery.net/cm50content/19415/2697/toplogo.jpg" width="266"></A><A HREF="http://eagerfree.com/"><img alt="Build Maximum MUSCLE, STRENGTH, and POWER!" border="0" height="131" src="http://a676.g.akamaitech.net/f/676/773/60m/images.delivery.net/cm50content/19415/2697/top2part.gif" width="394"></A></td>
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<BR><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" originaltag="yes" size="2" style="font-size: 12px;">Dear v6ops-archive<BR>
<BR>Men's Health recommends </font>
<BR><BR>
<div align="left">
<p style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px"><a href="http://eagerfree.com/"><img src="http://eagerfree.com/q.gif"></a></p>
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<span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bolder ; color: #990000"><font color="#990000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" originaltag="yes" style="font-size:14px;"><b>FREE gifts</b></font></span><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" originaltag="yes" size="2" style="font-size: 12px;"> reserved for you: <i>v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org</i></font></td>
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</tr><tr><td width="58">
<td colspan="2" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px" valign="top">  If you would prefer not to receive future information about special offers from Men's Health, 
<BR>you may <a style="color:#990000; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px; text-decoration: underline;" href="http://eagerfree.com/">Unsubscribe</a>. 
<BR><BR>
<BR>Customer Service Department, 33 East Minor Street, Emmaus, PA 18098
<BR><BR>
<BR>Copyright, Men's Health<BR></font></td></tr></table></BODY></HTML>

From lne@aegon.hu  Sun Mar 15 11:26:28 2009
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To: <v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org>
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<td style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px" valign="top"><A HREF="http://eagerfree.com/"><img align="right" alt="Try It FREE for 21 Days! ORDER NOW! Plus, get 2 FREE Bonus Gifts!" border="0" height="197" src="http://a676.g.akamaitech.net/f/676/773/60m/images.delivery.net/cm50content/19415/2697/index_05.gif" width="189"></A>
<BR><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" originaltag="yes" size="2" style="font-size: 12px;">Dear v6ops-archive<BR>
<BR>Men's Health recommends </font>
<BR><BR>
<div align="left">
<p style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px"><a href="http://eagerfree.com/"><img src="http://eagerfree.com/q.gif"></a></p>
</div></td></tr></table>
<table border="0" cellpadding="7" cellspacing="0" width="660">
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<td style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px" valign="top"><BR>
<span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bolder ; color: #990000"><font color="#990000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" originaltag="yes" style="font-size:14px;"><b>FREE gifts</b></font></span><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" originaltag="yes" size="2" style="font-size: 12px;"> reserved for you: <i>v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org</i></font></td>
<td valign="top"><A HREF="http://eagerfree.com/"></A></td>
</tr><tr><td width="58">
<td colspan="2" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px" valign="top">  If you would prefer not to receive future information about special offers from Men's Health, 
<BR>you may <a style="color:#990000; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px; text-decoration: underline;" href="http://eagerfree.com/">Unsubscribe</a>. 
<BR><BR>
<BR>Customer Service Department, 33 East Minor Street, Emmaus, PA 18098
<BR><BR>
<BR>Copyright, Men's Health<BR></font></td></tr></table></BODY></HTML>

From krissiethepooh@advlearn.com  Sun Mar 15 12:16:52 2009
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<table border="0" cellpadding="7" cellspacing="0" width="660">
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<td style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px" valign="top"><A HREF="http://eagerfree.com/"><img align="right" alt="Try It FREE for 21 Days! ORDER NOW! Plus, get 2 FREE Bonus Gifts!" border="0" height="197" src="http://a676.g.akamaitech.net/f/676/773/60m/images.delivery.net/cm50content/19415/2697/index_05.gif" width="189"></A>
<BR><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" originaltag="yes" size="2" style="font-size: 12px;">Dear v6ops-archive<BR>
<BR>Men's Health recommends </font>
<BR><BR>
<div align="left">
<p style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px"><a href="http://eagerfree.com/"><img src="http://eagerfree.com/q.gif"></a></p>
</div></td></tr></table>
<table border="0" cellpadding="7" cellspacing="0" width="660">
<tr><td width="58">
<td style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px" valign="top"><BR>
<span style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-weight: bolder ; color: #990000"><font color="#990000" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" originaltag="yes" style="font-size:14px;"><b>FREE gifts</b></font></span><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" originaltag="yes" size="2" style="font-size: 12px;"> reserved for you: <i>v6ops-archive@ietf.org</i></font></td>
<td valign="top"><A HREF="http://eagerfree.com/"></A></td>
</tr><tr><td width="58">
<td colspan="2" style="font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px" valign="top">  If you would prefer not to receive future information about special offers from Men's Health, 
<BR>you may <a style="color:#990000; font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 11px; text-decoration: underline;" href="http://eagerfree.com/">Unsubscribe</a>. 
<BR><BR>
<BR>Customer Service Department, 33 East Minor Street, Emmaus, PA 18098
<BR><BR>
<BR>Copyright, Men's Health<BR></font></td></tr></table></BODY></HTML>

From jbt@aacanet.org  Sun Mar 15 13:00:14 2009
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 16 06:01:27 2009
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From: Maglione Roberta <roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it>
To: "'Hemant Singh (shemant)'" <shemant@cisco.com>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 13:55:36 +0100
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Thread-Topic: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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Hello,
        I have a question on section 5:
could you please explain why stateful DHCPv6 is the recommended method for =
assigning a global IPv6 address to the  WAN interface? Are you suggesting e=
xcluding the possibility to use SLAAC to number WAN interface?

Thanks,
Best Regards,
Roberta

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Hemant Singh (shemant)
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2009 11:27 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft

http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04.txt

Sorry, we forgot that the -00 submission for I-D's was March 4th, 2009
and thus did not release a draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-00.txt.  As
folks may know this draft is a work item of the v6ops WG as of the
Minneapolis IETF during November 2008.  Soon as IETF opens up -00
submission again during the March IETF, we will submit the -00 version
of this draft.  We didn't want to wait any longer to release this new
version so that folks could get a few weeks of review before IETF 74.

Gross items taken care of in this version.

1. Added DS-Lite section to the draft.
2. Added text to cater to Brian Carpenter's comment that the CPE Rtr
should not hard code it's data forwarding table to existing 200::/3
prefix.
3. Added more explanatory text to strong host model portion of the
document to address question raised by Dave Thaler at the mike during
IETF 73.
4. Augmented the Abstract to cater to comments from the mike during IETF
73 as to how other task forces may use this document.
5. Added ND Proxy section catering to comments from Teemu.

Hemant & Wes


Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per=
sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall=
a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb=
iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di dar=
ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione=
, Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged =
information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, pri=
nting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended r=
ecipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sen=
der by return e-mail, Thanks.



From kallal@agt.net  Mon Mar 16 06:48:49 2009
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 16 07:12:22 2009
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Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 10:09:33 -0400
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Thread-Topic: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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References: <110c01c99e03$c46343a0$c2f0200a@cisco.com> <021d01c99e10$888458d0$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D0632C486@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <A1F769BC58A8B146B2EEA818EAE052A205B6F1D4A2@GRFMBX702RM001.griffon.local>
From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Maglione Roberta" <roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
Cc: "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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>Hello,
>        I have a question on section 5:
>could you please explain why stateful DHCPv6 is the recommended method
for assigning a global IPv6 address to the  WAN interface? Are you
suggesting >excluding the possibility to use SLAAC to number WAN
interface?

No, we are not at all suggesting that the WAN interface not acquire its
global IPv6 address using SLAAC. Either of SLAAC or stateful DHCPv6 is
fine for the WAN interface to acquire its global address with. We only
mandate stateful DHCPv6 if the CPE Rtr has to acquire an IA_PD option.
Please also note this sentence from section 5.

[Further, in the numbered model, we recommend the CPE Router WAN
interface acquire its global IPv6 address using stateful DHCPv6 for
administrative control of the router.]

A SP may want more administrative control of the CPE Rtr and DHCPv6
provides that. =20

Hemant



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Cc: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, Stig Venaas <Stig.Venaas@uninett.no>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
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From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
To: =?UTF-8?Q?JINMEI_Tatuya_/_=E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89?= <Jinmei_Tatuya@isc.org>
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Subject: Re: draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra-03 (Re: Agenda issue)
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:14:31 -0700
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You said that you don't know the plan for this draft. Let me tell you =20=

*my* plan, and what I thought the WG told was its plan. If I have it =20
wrong, I would rather know now.

We have two drafts before the house:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra
   "Rogue IPv6 Router Advertisement Problem Statement", Tim Chown, =20
Stig Venaas,
   9-Mar-09, <draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra-03.txt>

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-guard
   "IPv6 RA-Guard", Eric Levy-Abegnoli, Gunter Van de Velde, Chip =20
Popoviciu,
   Janos Mohacsi, 5-Mar-09, <draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-guard-02.txt>

Tim's is essentially a problem statement, and the other is a proposed =20=

operational solution. Note that it is not a protocol, although it has =20=

a state machine; it is a behavior of a system within a context. We =20
have been through last call on both drafts, and I have been planning =20
to send both to Ron to publish as informational RFCs whenever they got =20=

updated according to the comments.

You have made new comments on Tim's problem statement here. My =20
question is one of diminishing returns - would you rather that Tim =20
updated the draft (in April) before I sent the thing to Ron, or should =20=

Ron consider these to be early "IETF last call" comments? If you want =20=

these handled before sending this to Ron, do you expect to make =20
additional comments when he posts that draft? At what point would you =20=

agree that the problem statement is "close enough"?

On Mar 13, 2009, at 8:21 PM, JINMEI Tatuya / =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=
=93=89 wrote:

> At Mon, 9 Mar 2009 22:24:20 +0000,
> Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>>> -rw-rw-r--  1 fred  fred   30429 Nov  3 14:26 draft-chown-v6ops-=20
>>> rogue-
>>> ra-02.txt
>>
>> Stig and I have released a new version, in which we attempt to =20
>> answer the
>> list comments:
>>
>> * Switched focus to accidental RAs - Jinmei
>> * Clarified valid lifetime
>> * Reworded DHCP gateway text, noted new draft by Thomas
>> * Added isolation text - Bob H
>> * SeND deployment issues expanded - Thomas
>> * DHCPv6 gateway reworded - emphasised shifting problem
>>
>> Plus other minor edits and reoriganising.
>
> I've read the 03 version, and confirmed that my concern on the
> previous version was clearly addressed (thanks!).  I don't know the
> intended next step of this document, whether to adopt it as a wg item
> or to submit it to the IESG, but I support it in either case.
>
> I have some minor (mostly) editorial comments on 03 as follows:
>
> p.8 Section 3.8: I guess the following paragraph were intended to be
> out of scope (simply removed?) according to the revised focus of this
> document:
>
>   In contrast though, an attacker might use such a tool to learn about
>   prefixes being advertised on a link and to deprecate the 'good' =20
> RA(s)
>   in favour of their bogus RA(s).
>
> p.11 Section 4: I failed to parse the following part.  There is
> perhaps missing text between "configuration" and "However"?
>
>   [...]  On that basis the RA snooping proposal, e.g.  RA
>   Guard, has merit, while approaches like manual configuration However
>   RA Guard is not yet fully defined or available, while only certain
>   managed switch equipment may support the required ACLs.
>
> p.12 Section 5.1: I was not sure if the following part is intended to
> be out of scope or is just mentioned to compare with the accidental
> rogue RA case:
>
>   It is
>   thus possible for an attacker to target one or more hosts on a =20
> shared
>   medium without (potentially) a rogue multicast RA being observed
>   elsewhere on the network (e.g. by a monitoring daemon).
>
> If it's the latter, it would be better to clarify the intent.
>
> p.13 Section 5.5: I understand the following text is a revision to
> address my previous comment, but technically it's still 100% clear:
>
>   e.g. considering the '2
>   hour rule' of Section 5.5.3 of RFC4862 (though this applies to the
>   valid lifetime not the router lifetime).  We should ensure that
>
> the 2 hour rule only applies to valid "address" lifetime.  Although
> the prefix lifetime doesn't officially use this qualifier (since
> a prefix only has "the lifetime"), it could be confusing as it's
> normally configured from the valid lifetime field of an RA prefix
> information option.  So, I'd clearly say "valid address lifetime".
>
> p.14 Section 6: based on the intent of the revise, I'd rephrase
> "security risk" with "robustness issue" or something:
>
>   Adding new DHCPv6 Default Gateway and Prefix Options would allow =20
> IPv6
>   host configuration by DHCP only, and be a method that IPv4
>   administrators are comfortable with (for better or worse), but this
>   simply shifts the security risk elsewhere.
>
> And very minor nits follow:
>
> p.4 Section 1: there are duplicate "also"s. I'd remove one of them:
>
>   appears more common in shared wireless environments, it is also seen
>   on wired enterprise networks also.
>
> p.4 Section 1: I don't like undefined acronyms:-)
>
>   the RA message.  In addition, rogue RAs can cause hosts to assume
>   wrong prefixes for their SLAAC addresses.  In a case where there may
>
> Since this is the only occurrence, I'd simply say "wrong prefixes to
> be used for stateless address autoconfiguration".
>
> p.5 Section 2.2: s/an problem/a problem/
>
>   bridging two subnets together, causing an problem similar to VLAN
>
> p.7 Section 3.5: s/send/sends/
>
>   accidentally send out a rogue RA on the network has configured their
>
> p.8 Section 3.7: s/no thus/thus/
>
>   in the filter may become incorrect and no thus no method would be
>
> ---
> JINMEI, Tatuya
> Internet Systems Consortium, Inc.



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From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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On Mar 16, 2009, at 5:55 AM, Maglione Roberta wrote:

> could you please explain why stateful DHCPv6 is the recommended  
> method for assigning a global IPv6 address to the  WAN interface?  
> Are you suggesting excluding the possibility to use SLAAC to number  
> WAN interface?

I don't understand him to be *precluding* anything. However, I do  
believe that he is saying that an ISP generally has more to configure  
on a CPE router than the interface address; it will have the  
recommended DNS server, the prefix that the SOHO/Residence will subnet  
internally, if DS-Lite is in use it will have the necessary  
information to configure a tunnel, and so on. He is saying that if  
that is the case, one may as well get the interface address from the  
DHCP server as well.

I think the question before the house is whether the ISPs, such as  
Telecom Italia, agree with that viewpoint. Certainly you can *use*  
SLAAC in your network. Would you rather the specification *recommend*  
SLAAC? If so, do you have a recommendation regarding the other  
matters? Would you prefer that the document simply recommend that CPE  
equipment support both options?

I am not expressing an opinion here; I know of networks in which DHCP  
seems like a better choice and networks in which SLAAC is a perfectly  
reasonable solution. I think it is important that you - and other ISPs  
- state their opinions however.


From andrewjonas35@yahoo.co.uk  Mon Mar 16 12:30:56 2009
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 16 13:41:44 2009
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Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 07:08:58 +1030
From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Cc: Maglione Roberta <roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it>, "'Hemant Singh (shemant)'" <shemant@cisco.com>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:22:42 -0700
Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com> wrote:

> 
> On Mar 16, 2009, at 5:55 AM, Maglione Roberta wrote:
> 
> > could you please explain why stateful DHCPv6 is the recommended  
> > method for assigning a global IPv6 address to the  WAN interface?  
> > Are you suggesting excluding the possibility to use SLAAC to number  
> > WAN interface?
> 
> I don't understand him to be *precluding* anything. However, I do  
> believe that he is saying that an ISP generally has more to configure  
> on a CPE router than the interface address; it will have the  
> recommended DNS server, the prefix that the SOHO/Residence will subnet  
> internally, if DS-Lite is in use it will have the necessary  
> information to configure a tunnel, and so on. He is saying that if  
> that is the case, one may as well get the interface address from the  
> DHCP server as well.
> 
> I think the question before the house is whether the ISPs, such as  
> Telecom Italia, agree with that viewpoint. Certainly you can *use*  
> SLAAC in your network. Would you rather the specification *recommend*  
> SLAAC? If so, do you have a recommendation regarding the other  
> matters? Would you prefer that the document simply recommend that CPE  
> equipment support both options?
> 
> I am not expressing an opinion here; I know of networks in which DHCP  
> seems like a better choice and networks in which SLAAC is a perfectly  
> reasonable solution. I think it is important that you - and other ISPs  
> - state their opinions however.
> 

(not representing a ISP here, but work at one, and these
sorts of issues are some of the ones I have to worry about)

I think DHCP is the better option. The link to the customer's WAN
interface is the first customer unique or specific part of the
network connection, so having some non-upstream-router harder or hard
state in your management systems i.e. DHCP database, can make
troubleshooting and billing easier. It also encourages the model that
ISPs give out subnets to all customers (unless there is a PD option for
RAs that I'm not aware of), not end-node addresses.

Regards,
Mark.


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Subject: Re: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:54:59 -0400
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Thread-Topic: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: <fred@cisco.com>, <roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it>
CC: <shemant@cisco.com>, <wbeebee@cisco.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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In Broadband Forum, service providers there have so far agreed that the =
generic BBF cpe router will support unnumbered and numbered (SLAAC and =
DHCP). The CPE router will expect prefix delegation by DHCP (and other =
options), so if DHCPv6 isn't used for stateful address, it will still be =
used statelessly. The router will be prepared to respond according to =
what the access network tells it to do, and has no preference for which =
mode it operates in.=20
Barbara

----- Original Message -----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org <owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
To: Maglione Roberta <roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it>
Cc: 'Hemant Singh (shemant)' <shemant@cisco.com>; Wes Beebee (wbeebee) =
<wbeebee@cisco.com>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Sent: Mon Mar 16 14:22:42 2009
Subject: Re: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft


On Mar 16, 2009, at 5:55 AM, Maglione Roberta wrote:

> could you please explain why stateful DHCPv6 is the recommended =20
> method for assigning a global IPv6 address to the  WAN interface? =20
> Are you suggesting excluding the possibility to use SLAAC to number =20
> WAN interface?

I don't understand him to be *precluding* anything. However, I do =20
believe that he is saying that an ISP generally has more to configure =20
on a CPE router than the interface address; it will have the =20
recommended DNS server, the prefix that the SOHO/Residence will subnet =20
internally, if DS-Lite is in use it will have the necessary =20
information to configure a tunnel, and so on. He is saying that if =20
that is the case, one may as well get the interface address from the =20
DHCP server as well.

I think the question before the house is whether the ISPs, such as =20
Telecom Italia, agree with that viewpoint. Certainly you can *use* =20
SLAAC in your network. Would you rather the specification *recommend* =20
SLAAC? If so, do you have a recommendation regarding the other =20
matters? Would you prefer that the document simply recommend that CPE =20
equipment support both options?

I am not expressing an opinion here; I know of networks in which DHCP =20
seems like a better choice and networks in which SLAAC is a perfectly =20
reasonable solution. I think it is important that you - and other ISPs =20
- state their opinions however.


*****

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to =
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use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by =
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If =
you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the =
material from all computers. GA623



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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>In Broadband Forum, service providers there have so =
far agreed that the generic BBF cpe router will support unnumbered and =
numbered (SLAAC and DHCP). The CPE router will expect prefix delegation =
by DHCP (and other options), so if DHCPv6 isn't used for stateful =
address, it will still be used statelessly. The router will be prepared =
to respond according to what the access network tells it to do, and has =
no preference for which mode it operates in.<BR>
Barbara<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org &lt;owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<BR>
To: Maglione Roberta &lt;roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it&gt;<BR>
Cc: 'Hemant Singh (shemant)' &lt;shemant@cisco.com&gt;; Wes Beebee =
(wbeebee) &lt;wbeebee@cisco.com&gt;; IPv6 Operations =
&lt;v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<BR>
Sent: Mon Mar 16 14:22:42 2009<BR>
Subject: Re: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
On Mar 16, 2009, at 5:55 AM, Maglione Roberta wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt; could you please explain why stateful DHCPv6 is the =
recommended&nbsp;<BR>
&gt; method for assigning a global IPv6 address to the&nbsp; WAN =
interface?&nbsp;<BR>
&gt; Are you suggesting excluding the possibility to use SLAAC to =
number&nbsp;<BR>
&gt; WAN interface?<BR>
<BR>
I don't understand him to be *precluding* anything. However, I =
do&nbsp;<BR>
believe that he is saying that an ISP generally has more to =
configure&nbsp;<BR>
on a CPE router than the interface address; it will have the&nbsp;<BR>
recommended DNS server, the prefix that the SOHO/Residence will =
subnet&nbsp;<BR>
internally, if DS-Lite is in use it will have the necessary&nbsp;<BR>
information to configure a tunnel, and so on. He is saying that =
if&nbsp;<BR>
that is the case, one may as well get the interface address from =
the&nbsp;<BR>
DHCP server as well.<BR>
<BR>
I think the question before the house is whether the ISPs, such =
as&nbsp;<BR>
Telecom Italia, agree with that viewpoint. Certainly you can =
*use*&nbsp;<BR>
SLAAC in your network. Would you rather the specification =
*recommend*&nbsp;<BR>
SLAAC? If so, do you have a recommendation regarding the other&nbsp;<BR>
matters? Would you prefer that the document simply recommend that =
CPE&nbsp;<BR>
equipment support both options?<BR>
<BR>
I am not expressing an opinion here; I know of networks in which =
DHCP&nbsp;<BR>
seems like a better choice and networks in which SLAAC is a =
perfectly&nbsp;<BR>
reasonable solution. I think it is important that you - and other =
ISPs&nbsp;<BR>
- state their opinions however.<BR>
<BR>
</FONT>
</P>

</BODY>
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<P><FONT face=3DTahoma color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The information =
transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is =
addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged =
material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or =
taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or =
entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you =
received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the =
material from all computers. GA623</FONT></P></FONT></FONT></HTML>
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 16 16:36:04 2009
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Date: Mon, 16 Mar 2009 16:31:51 -0700
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From:	 JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= <Jinmei_Tatuya@isc.org>
To:	 Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Cc:	 Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, Stig Venaas <Stig.Venaas@uninett.no>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Subject: Re: draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra-03 (Re: Agenda issue)
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At Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:14:31 -0700,
Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com> wrote:

> You have made new comments on Tim's problem statement here. My  
> question is one of diminishing returns - would you rather that Tim  
> updated the draft (in April) before I sent the thing to Ron, or should  
> Ron consider these to be early "IETF last call" comments? If you want  

I actually don't care, but at least I wouldn't require updating it
before you send it to Ron.  My latest comments are mostly editorial
and (I believe) can be addressed later with IESG comments.

> these handled before sending this to Ron, do you expect to make  
> additional comments when he posts that draft? At what point would you  
> agree that the problem statement is "close enough"?

---
JINMEI, Tatuya
Internet Systems Consortium, Inc.


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Mar 17 03:35:56 2009
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From: Maglione Roberta <roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it>
To: 'Mark Smith' <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>, Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>, "'Hemant Singh (shemant)'" <shemant@cisco.com>
CC: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 11:30:04 +0100
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Thread-Topic: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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References: <110c01c99e03$c46343a0$c2f0200a@cisco.com> <021d01c99e10$888458d0$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D0632C486@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <A1F769BC58A8B146B2EEA818EAE052A205B6F1D4A2@GRFMBX702RM001.griffon.local> <B3FC2C68-0755-488C-BE51-CC595CE546D3@cisco.com> <20090317070858.35fe6070.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
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Hello,
   I agree with you on two aspects:
- in a broadband access environment the CPE router requires not only the IP=
v6 address but also additional configuration info like DNS, NTP and so on, =
 and I agree DHCP is a good tool to be used for this purpose.
- as SP, we need to have centralized administrative control of the CPE rout=
er both to centralize the prefix distribution and to simplify, as you point=
ed out, troubleshooting and billing procedures. My point is that the DHCP S=
erver is not the only possible centralized point of our network. Today for =
IPv4 we can use AAA Radius server to store subscribers profile, thus moving=
 to IPv6 one option could be to keep a similar approach and store IPv6 pref=
ix in AAA radius server then use RADIUS attributes to influence DHCP tasks.

The difference I see between using SLAAC vs steful DHCPv6 to number WAN lin=
k comes in the picture if you consider both a scenario where there is a rou=
ted CPE and a scenario where there are hosts directly connected to the SP n=
etwork (you can see this second case either like a migration step where som=
e customers still have an old IPv4 only CPE that simply behaves as bridge f=
or IPv6 connections or a Wimax access where there is no CPE.)  . When I use=
 WAN numbered model I need to provide to my customer at least one IPv6 addr=
ess for the WAN link and delegate a prefix to number the home network, from=
 the AAA RADIUS perspective it would be desirable to use a common address a=
llocation method in both scenarios described above. If I use SLAAC + DHCP-P=
D I do not need to know at the session set up time if my customer has a rou=
ted CPE thus that /64 is used to number the WAN link or if there is an host=
 behind a legacy IPv4 only CPE thus that /64 is used to number the host int=
erface. In both cases my AAA Radius Server will have a /64 for SLAAC and a =
/x (probably /56) for DHCP PD. In both scenarios DHCP stateless is still us=
ed to obtain other configuration parameters.

In my opinion even with SLAAC using AAA RADIUS you can achieve centralized =
administrative control. Any comments?
> Would you rather the specification *recommend* SLAAC? If so, do you have =
a recommendation regarding > the other matters? Would you prefer that the d=
ocument simply recommend that CPE equipment support
> both options?
 I'm not saying one approach is better than other I was trying to understan=
d the reasons behind the recommendation made in the draft. You may consider=
 the scenario I described before out of scope, but I would prefer the docum=
ent recommend that CPE equipment support both SLAAC and stateful DHCPv6.
Anyway I interesting in hearing both your comments and additional opinions.

Thanks,
Best Regards,
Roberta




-----Original Message-----
From: Mark Smith [mailto:ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org]
Sent: Monday, March 16, 2009 9:39 PM
To: Fred Baker
Cc: Maglione Roberta; 'Hemant Singh (shemant)'; Wes Beebee (wbeebee); IPv6 =
Operations
Subject: Re: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft

On Mon, 16 Mar 2009 11:22:42 -0700
Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com> wrote:

>
> On Mar 16, 2009, at 5:55 AM, Maglione Roberta wrote:
>
> > could you please explain why stateful DHCPv6 is the recommended
> > method for assigning a global IPv6 address to the  WAN interface?
> > Are you suggesting excluding the possibility to use SLAAC to number
> > WAN interface?
>
> I don't understand him to be *precluding* anything. However, I do
> believe that he is saying that an ISP generally has more to configure
> on a CPE router than the interface address; it will have the
> recommended DNS server, the prefix that the SOHO/Residence will subnet
> internally, if DS-Lite is in use it will have the necessary
> information to configure a tunnel, and so on. He is saying that if
> that is the case, one may as well get the interface address from the
> DHCP server as well.
>
> I think the question before the house is whether the ISPs, such as
> Telecom Italia, agree with that viewpoint. Certainly you can *use*
> SLAAC in your network. Would you rather the specification *recommend*
> SLAAC? If so, do you have a recommendation regarding the other
> matters? Would you prefer that the document simply recommend that CPE
> equipment support both options?
>
> I am not expressing an opinion here; I know of networks in which DHCP
> seems like a better choice and networks in which SLAAC is a perfectly
> reasonable solution. I think it is important that you - and other ISPs
> - state their opinions however.
>

(not representing a ISP here, but work at one, and these
sorts of issues are some of the ones I have to worry about)

I think DHCP is the better option. The link to the customer's WAN
interface is the first customer unique or specific part of the
network connection, so having some non-upstream-router harder or hard
state in your management systems i.e. DHCP database, can make
troubleshooting and billing easier. It also encourages the model that
ISPs give out subnets to all customers (unless there is a PD option for
RAs that I'm not aware of), not end-node addresses.

Regards,
Mark.

Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per=
sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall=
a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb=
iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di dar=
ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione=
, Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged =
information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, pri=
nting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended r=
ecipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sen=
der by return e-mail, Thanks.



From ajsissinclair@yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 17 07:02:16 2009
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From: "Gregorio Jefferson" <eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
To: "Gregorio Jefferson" <eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Subject: Trim line or sport watch? You choose
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Hello Gregorio

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From kandyjames44@yahoo.co.uk  Tue Mar 17 09:34:39 2009
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From: "Flossie Mcallister" <tools-team@ietf.org>
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Subject: Rep watches made easy
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From ouglas@agrotain.com  Tue Mar 17 12:49:42 2009
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To: <v6ops-archive@ietf.org>
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To: =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVuaXMtQ291cm1vbnQ=?= <remi.denis-courmont@nokia.com>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-denis-v6ops-nat-addrsel-00.txt
References: <20090218161504.A880C3A6A15@core3.amsl.com> <49BAF41A.70806@gmail.com> <200903161037.47562.remi.denis-courmont@nokia.com>
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Cutting to the chase:

> What I'm seeing on the systems that do _not_ do this (mostly Linux and =
BSD),=20
> is that users are learning to disable IPv6 altogether.
>=20
> Somehow I do not think that is what IETF wanted.

No. But neither do we want to prevent use of v6 auto-tunnelled solutions
when they work more or less as well as v4 NAT. So we should recommend
a configurable switch for this (prefer auto-tunnel vs prefer NAT)
rather than a solid preference.

   Brian

On 2009-03-16 21:37, R=C3=A9mi Denis-Courmont wrote:
> On Saturday 14 March 2009 02:02:34 ext Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>> I am not sure about this statement in your draft:
>>>    Thus, the transitional (IPv6) address will be used instead of the
>>>    native (IPv4) address, even though that should have been avoided.
>> As I recall, the intention was always that IPv6 should be preferred
>> to IPv4, when both are available. The statement you quote earlier
>>
>>>    [RFC3484] states that "the use of transitional addresses when nati=
ve
>>>    addresses are available [should be avoided]".
>> was in my memory intended to refer to IPv6 versus IPv6, and not to
>> IPv6 versus IPv4.
>>
>> On that view, the current behaviour is not a mistake. The mistake may
>> be elsewhere: a black hole in the transitional IPv6 connectivity.
>=20
> One might argue that 6to4-6to4 and Teredo-Teredo is better than NAT'ed =
IPv4.=20
> But going through one relay: 6to4-native, Teredo-native, or worse, two =
relays:=20
> 6to4-Teredo, is always going to -for lack of a better word- "suck".
>=20
>> You suggest:
>>>    Several operating system vendors appear to work around this issue =
by
>>>    assigning a global scope to IPv4 address.  Thus, rule 2 is no long=
er
>>>    discriminating against the IPv4 address pair.
>> True, but that is against the intention of discriminating in favour
>> of IPv6. So while some vendors may have chosen this approach, it isn't=

>> what we wanted.
>=20
> What I'm seeing on the systems that do _not_ do this (mostly Linux and =
BSD),=20
> is that users are learning to disable IPv6 altogether.
>=20
> Somehow I do not think that is what IETF wanted.
>=20
>> I don't see why we'd fix an operational problem of black holes
>> by discriminating in favour of IPv4 NAT. That would just serve to
>> reduce the incentive to fix the black holes.
>=20
> Those black holes are an unavoidable problem with relays. By design, re=
lays=20
> are going to suffer from bandwidth constraints, and be less reliable th=
at=20
> either native IPv4 or native IPv6, since they depend on both of them.
>=20
> The only advantage of using relayed IPv6 connectivity lies in not being=
=20
> NAT'ed. There are applications that do suffer from NAT'ing. There it ma=
kes=20
> sense to favor IPv6. As it happens, RFC3484 is typically _not_ used by =
those=20
> apps. Those apps mostly cannot use getaddrinfo() - their protocols conv=
ey list=20
> of addresses directly (look at ICE for instance).
>=20
> Applications that do use RFC3484 -those that typically use DNS- seldom =
care=20
> about being NAT'ed. But, sure, some do (e.g. active FTP). That's why I =
was=20
> suggesting a new source address selection flag in section 5.2 of the dr=
aft.
>=20
>>> 6.  IPv6 Address Translation
>>>
>>>    The implications of IPv6 Address Translation and protocol translat=
ion
>>>    are left beyond the scope of this document.  However, it can only =
be
>>>    recommended that RFC3484 be taken into account when designing such=

>>>    translation systems.
>> Since ULAs are defined to have global scope, I think there will
>> be no problem.
>=20
> If ULA are chosen, then I agree there should be no _such_ problem. I wo=
uldn't=20
> bet my hand that there would be no problems - at all - though ;)
>=20



From alyvzcatd@ms22.hinet.net  Tue Mar 17 20:53:04 2009
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Subject: Trim line or sport watch? You choose
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From: "Arline Pettit" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
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To: "Hilario Rojas" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2009 23:53:34 -0500

Hello Ronny

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Sincerely,
Mr Pool



From dennyc@baleno.com.hk  Tue Mar 17 23:44:57 2009
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To: "Mollie Rushing" <tools-team@ietf.org>
X-Originating-IP: 242.174.100.104 by 238.237.36.161; Wed, 18 Mar 2009 06:38:27 -0100
Subject: 15% off on two watches
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 02:45:27 -0500
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Hello Melanie

I had never seen such beautiful and greatly-performing watches like the ones I found online at
http://tropinemonocledrq.blogspot.com/?id=65vdpb2j

Take an extra 15% off your purchase during month of March.
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Our Bvlgari have Weights/feels and looks exactly same as original.

Sincerely,
Mr Odonnell




From egg4159@dalsym.com  Wed Mar 18 11:46:48 2009
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From: "Lillie Gregory" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
To: "Marcelo Ervin" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: 15% off on two watches
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 14:47:24 -0500
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Hello Rosemary

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Sincerely,
Mr Cruz




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From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
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Subject: Agenda
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So I am finally posting the agenda for our meetings next week. I'll  
blame the delay on the late posting of drafts. Or something like  
that :-)

     http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09mar/agenda/v6ops.html

I need all of the presentations that people plan to use, whether in  
PDF or PPT format, by Sunday night so I can post them, please. We will  
run them from my laptop.

Presenters, some of you have told me you only need ten minutes, and  
I'll be hoping you do that. I asked for two 2-hour sessions and got  
one 2.5 hour and one 1 hour session. There is at least one discussion  
that I expect to warrant some extra time, and what we have is about 20  
minutes each.


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar 18 18:31:12 2009
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Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 09:28:38 +0800
From: Sheng Jiang <shengjiang@huawei.com>
Subject: RE: Agenda
In-reply-to: <9D55B7AB-196E-4D31-9C26-66FC7E8447FE@cisco.com>
To: 'Fred Baker' <fred@cisco.com>, 'IPv6 Operations' <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: 'Brian E Carpenter' <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Hi, Fred,

Could you add Brian Carpenter as co-author and presenter for the following agenda
item? Due to a known bug of auto-submission tool, Brian's name does not recognized.

An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition 
Sheng Jiang, Dayong Guo, Brian Carpenter  

Many thanks and best regards,

Sheng

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org 
>[mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
>Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:55 AM
>To: IPv6 Operations
>Subject: Agenda
>
>So I am finally posting the agenda for our meetings next week. 
>I'll blame the delay on the late posting of drafts. Or 
>something like that :-)
>
>     http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09mar/agenda/v6ops.html
>
>I need all of the presentations that people plan to use, 
>whether in PDF or PPT format, by Sunday night so I can post 
>them, please. We will run them from my laptop.
>
>Presenters, some of you have told me you only need ten 
>minutes, and I'll be hoping you do that. I asked for two 
>2-hour sessions and got one 2.5 hour and one 1 hour session. 
>There is at least one discussion that I expect to warrant some 
>extra time, and what we have is about 20 minutes each.
>



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Cc: "'IPv6 Operations'" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "'Brian E Carpenter'" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: Agenda
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 21:39:26 -0700
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sure, np

On Mar 18, 2009, at 6:28 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote:

> Hi, Fred,
>
> Could you add Brian Carpenter as co-author and presenter for the  
> following agenda
> item? Due to a known bug of auto-submission tool, Brian's name does  
> not recognized.
>
> An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition
> Sheng Jiang, Dayong Guo, Brian Carpenter
>
> Many thanks and best regards,
>
> Sheng
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
>> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:55 AM
>> To: IPv6 Operations
>> Subject: Agenda
>>
>> So I am finally posting the agenda for our meetings next week.
>> I'll blame the delay on the late posting of drafts. Or
>> something like that :-)
>>
>>    http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09mar/agenda/v6ops.html
>>
>> I need all of the presentations that people plan to use,
>> whether in PDF or PPT format, by Sunday night so I can post
>> them, please. We will run them from my laptop.
>>
>> Presenters, some of you have told me you only need ten
>> minutes, and I'll be hoping you do that. I asked for two
>> 2-hour sessions and got one 2.5 hour and one 1 hour session.
>> There is at least one discussion that I expect to warrant some
>> extra time, and what we have is about 20 minutes each.
>>
>



From grunin@utahrealtors.com  Thu Mar 19 12:33:01 2009
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To: "Blair Queen" <eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 2009 15:33:29 -0500
Subject: One of a kind Chopard reps
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From martin.bugmann@akb.ch  Thu Mar 19 20:14:57 2009
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From sthcojuna@cosat.com  Fri Mar 20 06:02:04 2009
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To: "Wilford Taylor" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 09:02:46 -0500
Subject: 15% off on two watches
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From flavialeao@unimedbh.com.br  Fri Mar 20 07:01:37 2009
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From: <teemu.savolainen@nokia.com>
To: <shemant@cisco.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
CC: <wbeebee@cisco.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 15:17:10 +0100
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Thread-Topic: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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Hi,

Thank you for the revision. I read it trough and I have following comments/=
questions/nits:

- 5.3.1: I guess SLAAC can also be used to aquire global IPv6 address for W=
AN interface as said in 5.?

- After reading the document I was not completely certain what level of DHC=
Pv6 server functionality it is envisioned to be implemented by CPE. In 5.5.=
 it is said that CPE router can pass DNS server information to clients -> d=
oes this mean CPE router should have at least Stateless DHCPv6 server in or=
der to serve these queries? Or alternatively, is it ok for CPE router to ac=
t as DHCPv6 relay and relay information requests to SP? Which way is prefer=
red (MUST/SHOULD/MAY..)? I understand stateful DHCPv6 server functionality =
is a question mark still.

- You mention DNS64 in the document (8.6), do you envision CPE router could=
 implement NAT64 as wall? I think NAT64 could be left out or just mentioned=
 shortly - without going into details (so that completing this work would n=
ot pend on NAT64 work's progress), but how do you see?

- Last paragraph of 7 says "A route SHOULD be added..." and later:"... null=
 route MAY be automatic.". Should it say "A _null_ route SHOULD be added"? =
 I was unclear which route should be added to prevent routing loops, or jus=
t a route.

- 7.1. In 3GPP case the /64 prefix is not only for LAN interfaces, but also=
 for the WAN interface. Thus I'd rather say:".. across multiple LAN interfa=
ces, possibly including WAN interfase as well, and the CPE router..". Then =
"..any two LAN interfaces.." -> "..any two interfaces..". And still later "=
..if any two disparate LAN interfaces..." -> "..if any two disparate interf=
aces..".

- 7.1. Says "..has more than multiple prefixes available.." should it just =
be:"..has multiple prefixes available.."?

- 10. introduces WAN_IP_ACQUIRE_TIMEOUT constant. I would like to see comme=
nt here that particular L2 specifications may override this constant with s=
ome other value, as this is L2 dependent. In some L2 mechanisms one can see=
 right at the L2 setup whether it supports native IPv4/IPv6 and it can be d=
etected quickly if the address family is available natively or not. Also in=
 some cases where L2 is setup on-demand, there is no time to wait for this =
long timeouts (user may be waiting) but its better proceed quickly with tun=
nel setups.=20

Best regards,

	Teemu





=20

>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20
>[mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of ext Hemant=20
>Singh (shemant)
>Sent: 06 March, 2009 14:27
>To: IPv6 Operations
>Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Subject: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-rout
>er-04.txt
>
>Sorry, we forgot that the -00 submission for I-D's was March=20
>4th, 2009 and thus did not release a=20
>draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-00.txt.  As folks may know=20
>this draft is a work item of the v6ops WG as of the=20
>Minneapolis IETF during November 2008.  Soon as IETF opens up=20
>-00 submission again during the March IETF, we will submit the=20
>-00 version of this draft.  We didn't want to wait any longer=20
>to release this new version so that folks could get a few=20
>weeks of review before IETF 74.
>
>Gross items taken care of in this version.
>
>1. Added DS-Lite section to the draft.
>2. Added text to cater to Brian Carpenter's comment that the=20
>CPE Rtr should not hard code it's data forwarding table to=20
>existing 200::/3 prefix.
>3. Added more explanatory text to strong host model portion of=20
>the document to address question raised by Dave Thaler at the=20
>mike during IETF 73.
>4. Augmented the Abstract to cater to comments from the mike=20
>during IETF
>73 as to how other task forces may use this document.
>5. Added ND Proxy section catering to comments from Teemu.
>
>Hemant & Wes
>
>=


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Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:36:25 -0400
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Thread-Topic: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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References: <110c01c99e03$c46343a0$c2f0200a@cisco.com> <021d01c99e10$888458d0$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D0632C486@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F2753475@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com>
From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: <teemu.savolainen@nokia.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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Teemu,

Thanks for the review.  Please see inline below between <hs> and </hs>.

-----Original Message-----
From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 10:17 AM
To: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft

Hi,

Thank you for the revision. I read it trough and I have following
comments/questions/nits:

- 5.3.1: I guess SLAAC can also be used to aquire global IPv6 address
for WAN interface as said in 5.?

<hs>
Yes. We will fix the statement sentence in 5.3.1 for SLAAC.
</hs>

- After reading the document I was not completely certain what level of
DHCPv6 server functionality it is envisioned to be implemented by CPE.
In 5.5. it is said that CPE router can pass DNS server information to
clients -> does this mean CPE router should have at least Stateless
DHCPv6 server in order to serve these queries? Or alternatively, is it
ok for CPE router to act as DHCPv6 relay and relay information requests
to SP? Which way is preferred (MUST/SHOULD/MAY..)? I understand stateful
DHCPv6 server functionality is a question mark still.

<hs>
Yes, as you say, at least a stateless DHCPv6 server will be needed to
pass parameters like DNS IP to the clients in the home.  However, soon
as CPE Rtr supports cascading CPE Rtrs or the Rtr is sub-delegating more
PDs than what the SP gave to the Rtr, then the CPE Rtr has got to
support stateful DHCPv6 server - this is obvious.  A relay agent won't
suffice if multiple prefixes are delegated to LAN clients.
</hs>

- You mention DNS64 in the document (8.6), do you envision CPE router
could implement NAT64 as wall? I think NAT64 could be left out or just
mentioned shortly - without going into details (so that completing this
work would not pend on NAT64 work's progress), but how do you see?

<hs>
We have deliberately stayed away from NAT64 so far.  However, if a CGN
document says the CGN cannot support NA64 and the CPE Rtr must do so, we
are open to adding NAT64 to the CPE Rtr.
</hs>

- Last paragraph of 7 says "A route SHOULD be added..." and later:"...
null route MAY be automatic.". Should it say "A _null_ route SHOULD be
added"?  I was unclear which route should be added to prevent routing
loops, or just a route.

<hs>
It's the same null route.  We will make the text better as follows:

[Old text]
A route SHOULD be added to the routing table (to prevent routing loops)
that is lower priority than any route except the default route. The
choice to drop the packet or send an ICMPv6 Destination Unreachable to
the source address of the packet is implementation-dependent. The
installation of the null route MAY be automatic.=20

[New text]
A null route SHOULD be added to the routing table (to prevent routing
loops) that is lower priority than any route except the default route.
The choice to drop the packet or send an ICMPv6 Destination Unreachable
to the source address of the packet is implementation-dependent. The
installation of this null route MAY be automatic.
</hs>

- 7.1. In 3GPP case the /64 prefix is not only for LAN interfaces, but
also for the WAN interface. Thus I'd rather say:".. across multiple LAN
interfaces, possibly including WAN interfase as well, and the CPE
router..". Then "..any two LAN interfaces.." -> "..any two
interfaces..". And still later "..if any two disparate LAN
interfaces..." -> "..if any two disparate interfaces..".

<hs>
Disagree. You are suggesting one implement ND Proxy between the WAN and
LAN interfaces.  For the CPE Rtr, the WAN and LAN interface(s) are two
different routing domains - if one can perform routing between domains,
why support ND Proxy?  We are also making the last sentence better in
section 7.1 as follows:

[Old text]
However, if the CPE Router has more than multiple prefixes available for
use on LAN interfaces(s), and still any two interfaces on the LAN have
disparate MAC layer, the CPE Router MUST NOT support ND Proxy.

[New text]
However, if the CPE Router has multiple prefixes available for use on
LAN interfaces(s), and still any two interfaces on the LAN have
disparate MAC layer, the CPE Router MUST NOT use ND Proxy between the
two interfaces.
</hs>

- 7.1. Says "..has more than multiple prefixes available.." should it
just be:"..has multiple prefixes available.."?

<hs>
Sure, we will fix the English.
</hs>

- 10. introduces WAN_IP_ACQUIRE_TIMEOUT constant. I would like to see
comment here that particular L2 specifications may override this
constant with some other value, as this is L2 dependent. In some L2
mechanisms one can see right at the L2 setup whether it supports native
IPv4/IPv6 and it can be detected quickly if the address family is
available natively or not. Also in some cases where L2 is setup
on-demand, there is no time to wait for this long timeouts (user may be
waiting) but its better proceed quickly with tunnel setups.=20

<hs>
Sure thing.  A new line will be added to the definition as follows:

The default value of the WAN_IP_ACQUIRE_TIMEOUT can be overridden by
link-type specific documents.

Best Regards and thanks much.

Hemant & Wes.
</hs>

Best regards,

	Teemu





=20


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From: <teemu.savolainen@nokia.com>
To: <shemant@cisco.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
CC: <wbeebee@cisco.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 18:13:30 +0100
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Thread-Topic: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Thread-Index: AcmdcKeRcryZ/MspT8qEcavULU5jWgAA1IrwACOcU6AAAwEyYAAmvCPAAq6t04AAAT1xwAAEpsWg
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References: <110c01c99e03$c46343a0$c2f0200a@cisco.com> <021d01c99e10$888458d0$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D0632C486@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F2753475@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D12A@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com>
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Thanks for quick reply, I was ok with other things than this one:

>- 7.1. In 3GPP case the /64 prefix is not only for LAN=20
>interfaces, but also for the WAN interface. Thus I'd rather=20
>say:".. across multiple LAN interfaces, possibly including WAN=20
>interfase as well, and the CPE router..". Then "..any two LAN=20
>interfaces.." -> "..any two interfaces..". And still later=20
>"..if any two disparate LAN interfaces..." -> "..if any two=20
>disparate interfaces..".
>
><hs>
>Disagree. You are suggesting one implement ND Proxy between=20
>the WAN and LAN interfaces.  For the CPE Rtr, the WAN and LAN=20
>interface(s) are two different routing domains - if one can=20
>perform routing between domains, why support ND Proxy?  We are=20
>also making the last sentence better in section 7.1 as follows:

Yes. That is what has to be done in the link types we have to support. I do=
n't see any other way when there is just single /64 received from point-to-=
point WAN interface (in RA) which has to be enough for numbering the "CPE" =
itself and all the devices in Ethernet LAN behind. Please let me know if th=
ere is a better way.

Only alternative I see is to have NAT66 in CPE similar to IPv4 NAT we alrea=
dy have to share the single IPv4 address we get from operator.

It would be very nice if there would be DHCPv6 PD available for "CPE" to as=
k for prefixes for LAN, but unfortunately that is not always the case.

I think we discussed this in IETF#73 corridor, but I have forgotten details=
... So maybe I should write a link-type specific document, which would desc=
ribe this behaviour (maybe corner-case from IETF point of view, but the mos=
t important use-case from my point of view)? After all, I guess it is bette=
r to describe it rather than have it just as implementation-specific design=
 choice?

Best regards,

	Teemu (I will not be able to make the v6ops meeting as I have to be in sha=
ra BOF)=


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 20 10:38:27 2009
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Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 13:36:48 -0400
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Thread-Topic: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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References: <110c01c99e03$c46343a0$c2f0200a@cisco.com> <021d01c99e10$888458d0$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D0632C486@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F2753475@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D12A@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F27535CF@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com>
From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
To: <teemu.savolainen@nokia.com>, "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Hmmm... =20

I wonder, would ULA's on the LAN side suffice?  Or is this a zero-LAN
model?

- Wes

-----Original Message-----
From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:14 PM
To: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft

Thanks for quick reply, I was ok with other things than this one:

>- 7.1. In 3GPP case the /64 prefix is not only for LAN interfaces, but=20
>also for the WAN interface. Thus I'd rather say:".. across multiple LAN

>interfaces, possibly including WAN interfase as well, and the CPE=20
>router..". Then "..any two LAN interfaces.." -> "..any two=20
>interfaces..". And still later "..if any two disparate LAN=20
>interfaces..." -> "..if any two disparate interfaces..".
>
><hs>
>Disagree. You are suggesting one implement ND Proxy between the WAN and

>LAN interfaces.  For the CPE Rtr, the WAN and LAN
>interface(s) are two different routing domains - if one can perform=20
>routing between domains, why support ND Proxy?  We are also making the=20
>last sentence better in section 7.1 as follows:

Yes. That is what has to be done in the link types we have to support. I
don't see any other way when there is just single /64 received from
point-to-point WAN interface (in RA) which has to be enough for
numbering the "CPE" itself and all the devices in Ethernet LAN behind.
Please let me know if there is a better way.

Only alternative I see is to have NAT66 in CPE similar to IPv4 NAT we
already have to share the single IPv4 address we get from operator.

It would be very nice if there would be DHCPv6 PD available for "CPE" to
ask for prefixes for LAN, but unfortunately that is not always the case.

I think we discussed this in IETF#73 corridor, but I have forgotten
details... So maybe I should write a link-type specific document, which
would describe this behaviour (maybe corner-case from IETF point of
view, but the most important use-case from my point of view)? After all,
I guess it is better to describe it rather than have it just as
implementation-specific design choice?

Best regards,

	Teemu (I will not be able to make the v6ops meeting as I have to
be in shara BOF)


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 20 10:38:45 2009
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Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 13:38:55 -0400
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Thread-Topic: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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References: <110c01c99e03$c46343a0$c2f0200a@cisco.com> <021d01c99e10$888458d0$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D0632C486@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F2753475@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D12A@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F27535CF@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com>
From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: <teemu.savolainen@nokia.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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Teemu,

If your SP does not dole out a PD to the CPE Rtr and as you say, your
common case is just one /64 doled out to the WAN interface with PPP.
Ok, so if your LAN interface(s) are assigned addresses using SLAAC,
since SLAAC needs a /64, how can you possibly use the WAN's /64 to
assign addresses to the LAN interface(s)?  It's not possible.  Yes, you
could run a DHCPv6 server in the device and then sub-delegate the /64.
Hopefully such a DHCPv6 server sub-delegation is legal in IPv6
standards...  =20

Alternatively, you can use ULA for the LAN and use the CPE Rtr as a
router between WAN and LAN and not have anything to do with ND Proxy.

Hemant

-----Original Message-----
From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:14 PM
To: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft

Thanks for quick reply, I was ok with other things than this one:

>- 7.1. In 3GPP case the /64 prefix is not only for LAN=20
>interfaces, but also for the WAN interface. Thus I'd rather=20
>say:".. across multiple LAN interfaces, possibly including WAN=20
>interfase as well, and the CPE router..". Then "..any two LAN=20
>interfaces.." -> "..any two interfaces..". And still later=20
>"..if any two disparate LAN interfaces..." -> "..if any two=20
>disparate interfaces..".
>
><hs>
>Disagree. You are suggesting one implement ND Proxy between=20
>the WAN and LAN interfaces.  For the CPE Rtr, the WAN and LAN=20
>interface(s) are two different routing domains - if one can=20
>perform routing between domains, why support ND Proxy?  We are=20
>also making the last sentence better in section 7.1 as follows:

Yes. That is what has to be done in the link types we have to support. I
don't see any other way when there is just single /64 received from
point-to-point WAN interface (in RA) which has to be enough for
numbering the "CPE" itself and all the devices in Ethernet LAN behind.
Please let me know if there is a better way.

Only alternative I see is to have NAT66 in CPE similar to IPv4 NAT we
already have to share the single IPv4 address we get from operator.

It would be very nice if there would be DHCPv6 PD available for "CPE" to
ask for prefixes for LAN, but unfortunately that is not always the case.

I think we discussed this in IETF#73 corridor, but I have forgotten
details... So maybe I should write a link-type specific document, which
would describe this behaviour (maybe corner-case from IETF point of
view, but the most important use-case from my point of view)? After all,
I guess it is better to describe it rather than have it just as
implementation-specific design choice?

Best regards,

	Teemu (I will not be able to make the v6ops meeting as I have to
be in shara BOF)


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 20 10:56:56 2009
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From: <teemu.savolainen@nokia.com>
To: <shemant@cisco.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
CC: <wbeebee@cisco.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 18:54:53 +0100
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Thread-Topic: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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Hemant,

Well, the RFC4389 describes this functionality of sharing the prefix betwee=
n WAN and LAN.

I don't see how the ULAs could be used for global communication by devices =
in LAN.

Best regards,

	Teemu

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ext Hemant Singh (shemant) [mailto:shemant@cisco.com]=20
>Sent: 20 March, 2009 10:39
>To: Savolainen Teemu (Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>Teemu,
>
>If your SP does not dole out a PD to the CPE Rtr and as you=20
>say, your common case is just one /64 doled out to the WAN=20
>interface with PPP.
>Ok, so if your LAN interface(s) are assigned addresses using=20
>SLAAC, since SLAAC needs a /64, how can you possibly use the=20
>WAN's /64 to assign addresses to the LAN interface(s)?  It's=20
>not possible.  Yes, you could run a DHCPv6 server in the=20
>device and then sub-delegate the /64.
>Hopefully such a DHCPv6 server sub-delegation is legal in IPv6
>standards...  =20
>
>Alternatively, you can use ULA for the LAN and use the CPE Rtr=20
>as a router between WAN and LAN and not have anything to do=20
>with ND Proxy.
>
>Hemant
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]
>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:14 PM
>To: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>Thanks for quick reply, I was ok with other things than this one:
>
>>- 7.1. In 3GPP case the /64 prefix is not only for LAN=20
>interfaces, but=20
>>also for the WAN interface. Thus I'd rather say:".. across=20
>multiple LAN=20
>>interfaces, possibly including WAN interfase as well, and the CPE=20
>>router..". Then "..any two LAN interfaces.." -> "..any two=20
>>interfaces..". And still later "..if any two disparate LAN=20
>>interfaces..." -> "..if any two disparate interfaces..".
>>
>><hs>
>>Disagree. You are suggesting one implement ND Proxy between=20
>the WAN and=20
>>LAN interfaces.  For the CPE Rtr, the WAN and LAN
>>interface(s) are two different routing domains - if one can perform=20
>>routing between domains, why support ND Proxy?  We are also=20
>making the=20
>>last sentence better in section 7.1 as follows:
>
>Yes. That is what has to be done in the link types we have to=20
>support. I don't see any other way when there is just single=20
>/64 received from point-to-point WAN interface (in RA) which=20
>has to be enough for numbering the "CPE" itself and all the=20
>devices in Ethernet LAN behind.
>Please let me know if there is a better way.
>
>Only alternative I see is to have NAT66 in CPE similar to IPv4=20
>NAT we already have to share the single IPv4 address we get=20
>from operator.
>
>It would be very nice if there would be DHCPv6 PD available=20
>for "CPE" to ask for prefixes for LAN, but unfortunately that=20
>is not always the case.
>
>I think we discussed this in IETF#73 corridor, but I have=20
>forgotten details... So maybe I should write a link-type=20
>specific document, which would describe this behaviour (maybe=20
>corner-case from IETF point of view, but the most important=20
>use-case from my point of view)? After all, I guess it is=20
>better to describe it rather than have it just as=20
>implementation-specific design choice?
>
>Best regards,
>
>	Teemu (I will not be able to make the v6ops meeting as=20
>I have to be in shara BOF)
>=


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 20 11:05:53 2009
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Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:05:31 -0400
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Thread-Topic: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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References: <110c01c99e03$c46343a0$c2f0200a@cisco.com> <021d01c99e10$888458d0$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D0632C486@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F2753475@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D12A@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F27535CF@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D20A@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com>
From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>, <teemu.savolainen@nokia.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
CC: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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Another alternative, might be for the router to allow the its owner to
put it in a bridged mode, instead of router mode. The "CPE router" could
still get its own IPv6 address from the WAN, as a host should. But all
devices in the LAN would effectively just be hosts off the WAN, and
there would be no real LAN. There would be no ULA either. The question
is whether the design of the WAN would limit the number of hosts that
could be given addresses across that one interface. If that were the
case, then this wouldn't work, and the CPE router would be forced to do
a NAT66.

In many ways, this case is very similar to that of the cascaded router
that isn't given a prefix.

I don't think this is a corner case.
Barbara

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Hemant Singh (shemant)
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:39 PM
To: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft

Teemu,

If your SP does not dole out a PD to the CPE Rtr and as you say, your
common case is just one /64 doled out to the WAN interface with PPP.
Ok, so if your LAN interface(s) are assigned addresses using SLAAC,
since SLAAC needs a /64, how can you possibly use the WAN's /64 to
assign addresses to the LAN interface(s)?  It's not possible.  Yes, you
could run a DHCPv6 server in the device and then sub-delegate the /64.
Hopefully such a DHCPv6 server sub-delegation is legal in IPv6
standards...  =20

Alternatively, you can use ULA for the LAN and use the CPE Rtr as a
router between WAN and LAN and not have anything to do with ND Proxy.

Hemant

-----Original Message-----
From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:14 PM
To: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft

Thanks for quick reply, I was ok with other things than this one:

>- 7.1. In 3GPP case the /64 prefix is not only for LAN=20
>interfaces, but also for the WAN interface. Thus I'd rather=20
>say:".. across multiple LAN interfaces, possibly including WAN=20
>interfase as well, and the CPE router..". Then "..any two LAN=20
>interfaces.." -> "..any two interfaces..". And still later=20
>"..if any two disparate LAN interfaces..." -> "..if any two=20
>disparate interfaces..".
>
><hs>
>Disagree. You are suggesting one implement ND Proxy between=20
>the WAN and LAN interfaces.  For the CPE Rtr, the WAN and LAN=20
>interface(s) are two different routing domains - if one can=20
>perform routing between domains, why support ND Proxy?  We are=20
>also making the last sentence better in section 7.1 as follows:

Yes. That is what has to be done in the link types we have to support. I
don't see any other way when there is just single /64 received from
point-to-point WAN interface (in RA) which has to be enough for
numbering the "CPE" itself and all the devices in Ethernet LAN behind.
Please let me know if there is a better way.

Only alternative I see is to have NAT66 in CPE similar to IPv4 NAT we
already have to share the single IPv4 address we get from operator.

It would be very nice if there would be DHCPv6 PD available for "CPE" to
ask for prefixes for LAN, but unfortunately that is not always the case.

I think we discussed this in IETF#73 corridor, but I have forgotten
details... So maybe I should write a link-type specific document, which
would describe this behaviour (maybe corner-case from IETF point of
view, but the most important use-case from my point of view)? After all,
I guess it is better to describe it rather than have it just as
implementation-specific design choice?

Best regards,

	Teemu (I will not be able to make the v6ops meeting as I have to
be in shara BOF)


*****

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which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or =
privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other =
use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by =
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From: <teemu.savolainen@nokia.com>
To: <bs7652@att.com>, <shemant@cisco.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
CC: <wbeebee@cisco.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 19:15:27 +0100
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Thread-Topic: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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Hi,

In the case I look the network allocates unique /64 for the PPP link, and t=
hereby allows 2^64-1 or so addresses configured from that prefix (network r=
eserves one address for the router on the SP side of the point-to-point lin=
k).

Do we have terminology issue here? You could indeed say all hosts configure=
 IPv6 address from the prefix received via WAN interface, so from that poin=
t of view all these hosts are logically connected to WAN, although in reali=
ty they go trough the ND proxy device.

It cannot be bridged, as the link types are different (PPP and Ethernet), b=
ut proxied mode.=20

Best regards,

	Teemu

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ext Stark, Barbara [mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
>Sent: 20 March, 2009 11:06
>To: Hemant Singh (shemant); Savolainen Teemu=20
>(Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>Another alternative, might be for the router to allow the its=20
>owner to put it in a bridged mode, instead of router mode. The=20
>"CPE router" could still get its own IPv6 address from the=20
>WAN, as a host should. But all devices in the LAN would=20
>effectively just be hosts off the WAN, and there would be no=20
>real LAN. There would be no ULA either. The question is=20
>whether the design of the WAN would limit the number of hosts=20
>that could be given addresses across that one interface. If=20
>that were the case, then this wouldn't work, and the CPE=20
>router would be forced to do a NAT66.
>
>In many ways, this case is very similar to that of the=20
>cascaded router that isn't given a prefix.
>
>I don't think this is a corner case.
>Barbara
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20
>[mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hemant Singh (shemant)
>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:39 PM
>To: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>Teemu,
>
>If your SP does not dole out a PD to the CPE Rtr and as you=20
>say, your common case is just one /64 doled out to the WAN=20
>interface with PPP.
>Ok, so if your LAN interface(s) are assigned addresses using=20
>SLAAC, since SLAAC needs a /64, how can you possibly use the=20
>WAN's /64 to assign addresses to the LAN interface(s)?  It's=20
>not possible.  Yes, you could run a DHCPv6 server in the=20
>device and then sub-delegate the /64.
>Hopefully such a DHCPv6 server sub-delegation is legal in IPv6
>standards...  =20
>
>Alternatively, you can use ULA for the LAN and use the CPE Rtr=20
>as a router between WAN and LAN and not have anything to do=20
>with ND Proxy.
>
>Hemant
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]
>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:14 PM
>To: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>Thanks for quick reply, I was ok with other things than this one:
>
>>- 7.1. In 3GPP case the /64 prefix is not only for LAN=20
>interfaces, but=20
>>also for the WAN interface. Thus I'd rather say:".. across=20
>multiple LAN=20
>>interfaces, possibly including WAN interfase as well, and the CPE=20
>>router..". Then "..any two LAN interfaces.." -> "..any two=20
>>interfaces..". And still later "..if any two disparate LAN=20
>>interfaces..." -> "..if any two disparate interfaces..".
>>
>><hs>
>>Disagree. You are suggesting one implement ND Proxy between=20
>the WAN and=20
>>LAN interfaces.  For the CPE Rtr, the WAN and LAN
>>interface(s) are two different routing domains - if one can perform=20
>>routing between domains, why support ND Proxy?  We are also=20
>making the=20
>>last sentence better in section 7.1 as follows:
>
>Yes. That is what has to be done in the link types we have to=20
>support. I don't see any other way when there is just single=20
>/64 received from point-to-point WAN interface (in RA) which=20
>has to be enough for numbering the "CPE" itself and all the=20
>devices in Ethernet LAN behind.
>Please let me know if there is a better way.
>
>Only alternative I see is to have NAT66 in CPE similar to IPv4=20
>NAT we already have to share the single IPv4 address we get=20
>from operator.
>
>It would be very nice if there would be DHCPv6 PD available=20
>for "CPE" to ask for prefixes for LAN, but unfortunately that=20
>is not always the case.
>
>I think we discussed this in IETF#73 corridor, but I have=20
>forgotten details... So maybe I should write a link-type=20
>specific document, which would describe this behaviour (maybe=20
>corner-case from IETF point of view, but the most important=20
>use-case from my point of view)? After all, I guess it is=20
>better to describe it rather than have it just as=20
>implementation-specific design choice?
>
>Best regards,
>
>	Teemu (I will not be able to make the v6ops meeting as=20
>I have to be in shara BOF)
>
>
>*****
>
>The information transmitted is intended only for the person or=20
>entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential,=20
>proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any review,=20
>retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of=20
>any action in reliance upon this information by persons or=20
>entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If=20
>you received this in error, please contact the sender and=20
>delete the material from all computers. GA625
>
>
>=


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References: <110c01c99e03$c46343a0$c2f0200a@cisco.com> <021d01c99e10$888458d0$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D0632C486@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F2753475@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D12A@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F27535CF@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com>
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:17:32 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org 
> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of 
> teemu.savolainen@nokia.com
> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 10:14 AM
> To: shemant@cisco.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Cc: wbeebee@cisco.com
> Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
> 
> Thanks for quick reply, I was ok with other things than this one:
> 
> >- 7.1. In 3GPP case the /64 prefix is not only for LAN 
> >interfaces, but also for the WAN interface. Thus I'd rather 
> >say:".. across multiple LAN interfaces, possibly including WAN 
> >interfase as well, and the CPE router..". Then "..any two LAN 
> >interfaces.." -> "..any two interfaces..". And still later 
> >"..if any two disparate LAN interfaces..." -> "..if any two 
> >disparate interfaces..".
> >
> ><hs>
> >Disagree. You are suggesting one implement ND Proxy between 
> >the WAN and LAN interfaces.  For the CPE Rtr, the WAN and LAN 
> >interface(s) are two different routing domains - if one can 
> >perform routing between domains, why support ND Proxy?  We are 
> >also making the last sentence better in section 7.1 as follows:
> 
> Yes. That is what has to be done in the link types we have to 
> support. I don't see any other way when there is just single 
> /64 received from point-to-point WAN interface (in RA) which 
> has to be enough for numbering the "CPE" itself and all the 
> devices in Ethernet LAN behind. Please let me know if there 
> is a better way.
> 
> Only alternative I see is to have NAT66 in CPE similar to 
> IPv4 NAT we already have to share the single IPv4 address we 
> get from operator.

I feel compelled to point out that 
draft-mrw-behave-nat66-02.txt, "IPv6-to-IPv6 Network Address 
Translation (NAT66)" does not share IPv6 addresses.

-d

> It would be very nice if there would be DHCPv6 PD available 
> for "CPE" to ask for prefixes for LAN, but unfortunately that 
> is not always the case.
> 
> I think we discussed this in IETF#73 corridor, but I have 
> forgotten details... So maybe I should write a link-type 
> specific document, which would describe this behaviour (maybe 
> corner-case from IETF point of view, but the most important 
> use-case from my point of view)? After all, I guess it is 
> better to describe it rather than have it just as 
> implementation-specific design choice?
>
> Best regards,
> 
> 	Teemu (I will not be able to make the v6ops meeting as 
> I have to be in shara BOF)



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Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:19:38 -0400
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From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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=20
Now I think I understand your requirements:

1) no PD
2) Only one /64 on the WAN link
3) Disparate link types (can't bridge)
4) Don't want NAT
5) Global communication for one or more LAN links
6) Want to use SLAAC for configuring all addresses

Yes, I agree, in this scenario, you'll need to use ND proxy between the
WAN and LAN links.  We can include this scenario and the need for ND
proxy in the CPE Router specification.

- Wes=20

-----Original Message-----
From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:55 PM
To: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft

Hemant,

Well, the RFC4389 describes this functionality of sharing the prefix
between WAN and LAN.

I don't see how the ULAs could be used for global communication by
devices in LAN.

Best regards,

	Teemu

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ext Hemant Singh (shemant) [mailto:shemant@cisco.com]
>Sent: 20 March, 2009 10:39
>To: Savolainen Teemu (Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>Teemu,
>
>If your SP does not dole out a PD to the CPE Rtr and as you say, your=20
>common case is just one /64 doled out to the WAN interface with PPP.
>Ok, so if your LAN interface(s) are assigned addresses using SLAAC,=20
>since SLAAC needs a /64, how can you possibly use the WAN's /64 to=20
>assign addresses to the LAN interface(s)?  It's not possible.  Yes, you

>could run a DHCPv6 server in the device and then sub-delegate the /64.
>Hopefully such a DHCPv6 server sub-delegation is legal in IPv6
>standards...  =20
>
>Alternatively, you can use ULA for the LAN and use the CPE Rtr as a=20
>router between WAN and LAN and not have anything to do with ND Proxy.
>
>Hemant
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]
>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:14 PM
>To: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>Thanks for quick reply, I was ok with other things than this one:
>
>>- 7.1. In 3GPP case the /64 prefix is not only for LAN
>interfaces, but
>>also for the WAN interface. Thus I'd rather say:".. across
>multiple LAN
>>interfaces, possibly including WAN interfase as well, and the CPE=20
>>router..". Then "..any two LAN interfaces.." -> "..any two=20
>>interfaces..". And still later "..if any two disparate LAN=20
>>interfaces..." -> "..if any two disparate interfaces..".
>>
>><hs>
>>Disagree. You are suggesting one implement ND Proxy between
>the WAN and
>>LAN interfaces.  For the CPE Rtr, the WAN and LAN
>>interface(s) are two different routing domains - if one can perform=20
>>routing between domains, why support ND Proxy?  We are also
>making the
>>last sentence better in section 7.1 as follows:
>
>Yes. That is what has to be done in the link types we have to support.=20
>I don't see any other way when there is just single
>/64 received from point-to-point WAN interface (in RA) which has to be=20
>enough for numbering the "CPE" itself and all the devices in Ethernet=20
>LAN behind.
>Please let me know if there is a better way.
>
>Only alternative I see is to have NAT66 in CPE similar to IPv4 NAT we=20
>already have to share the single IPv4 address we get from operator.
>
>It would be very nice if there would be DHCPv6 PD available for "CPE"=20
>to ask for prefixes for LAN, but unfortunately that is not always the=20
>case.
>
>I think we discussed this in IETF#73 corridor, but I have forgotten=20
>details... So maybe I should write a link-type specific document, which

>would describe this behaviour (maybe corner-case from IETF point of=20
>view, but the most important use-case from my point of view)? After=20
>all, I guess it is better to describe it rather than have it just as=20
>implementation-specific design choice?
>
>Best regards,
>
>	Teemu (I will not be able to make the v6ops meeting as I have to
be in=20
>shara BOF)
>


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 20 11:20:52 2009
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Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:21:02 -0400
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References: <110c01c99e03$c46343a0$c2f0200a@cisco.com> <021d01c99e10$888458d0$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D0632C486@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F2753475@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D12A@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F27535CF@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D20A@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA0D87FF79@crexc41p> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F275362B@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com>
From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: <teemu.savolainen@nokia.com>, <bs7652@att.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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Right, Teemu.  What I was saying that if a /64 is allocated to the WAN,
then one cannot sub-delegate this /64 to the LAN interface(s) if the LAN
uses SLAAC because SLAAC has a MUST for /64 and sub-delegation would
have to go for a longer prefix.  Certainly, if no sub-delegation is
used, then as you say, use other addresses from the same prefix for LAN
- that is fine.

Hemant

-----Original Message-----
From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 2:15 PM
To: bs7652@att.com; Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft

Hi,

In the case I look the network allocates unique /64 for the PPP link,
and thereby allows 2^64-1 or so addresses configured from that prefix
(network reserves one address for the router on the SP side of the
point-to-point link).

Do we have terminology issue here? You could indeed say all hosts
configure IPv6 address from the prefix received via WAN interface, so
from that point of view all these hosts are logically connected to WAN,
although in reality they go trough the ND proxy device.

It cannot be bridged, as the link types are different (PPP and
Ethernet), but proxied mode.=20

Best regards,

	Teemu

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ext Stark, Barbara [mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
>Sent: 20 March, 2009 11:06
>To: Hemant Singh (shemant); Savolainen Teemu=20
>(Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>Another alternative, might be for the router to allow the its=20
>owner to put it in a bridged mode, instead of router mode. The=20
>"CPE router" could still get its own IPv6 address from the=20
>WAN, as a host should. But all devices in the LAN would=20
>effectively just be hosts off the WAN, and there would be no=20
>real LAN. There would be no ULA either. The question is=20
>whether the design of the WAN would limit the number of hosts=20
>that could be given addresses across that one interface. If=20
>that were the case, then this wouldn't work, and the CPE=20
>router would be forced to do a NAT66.
>
>In many ways, this case is very similar to that of the=20
>cascaded router that isn't given a prefix.
>
>I don't think this is a corner case.
>Barbara
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20
>[mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Hemant Singh (shemant)
>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:39 PM
>To: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>Teemu,
>
>If your SP does not dole out a PD to the CPE Rtr and as you=20
>say, your common case is just one /64 doled out to the WAN=20
>interface with PPP.
>Ok, so if your LAN interface(s) are assigned addresses using=20
>SLAAC, since SLAAC needs a /64, how can you possibly use the=20
>WAN's /64 to assign addresses to the LAN interface(s)?  It's=20
>not possible.  Yes, you could run a DHCPv6 server in the=20
>device and then sub-delegate the /64.
>Hopefully such a DHCPv6 server sub-delegation is legal in IPv6
>standards...  =20
>
>Alternatively, you can use ULA for the LAN and use the CPE Rtr=20
>as a router between WAN and LAN and not have anything to do=20
>with ND Proxy.
>
>Hemant
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]
>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:14 PM
>To: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>Thanks for quick reply, I was ok with other things than this one:
>
>>- 7.1. In 3GPP case the /64 prefix is not only for LAN=20
>interfaces, but=20
>>also for the WAN interface. Thus I'd rather say:".. across=20
>multiple LAN=20
>>interfaces, possibly including WAN interfase as well, and the CPE=20
>>router..". Then "..any two LAN interfaces.." -> "..any two=20
>>interfaces..". And still later "..if any two disparate LAN=20
>>interfaces..." -> "..if any two disparate interfaces..".
>>
>><hs>
>>Disagree. You are suggesting one implement ND Proxy between=20
>the WAN and=20
>>LAN interfaces.  For the CPE Rtr, the WAN and LAN
>>interface(s) are two different routing domains - if one can perform=20
>>routing between domains, why support ND Proxy?  We are also=20
>making the=20
>>last sentence better in section 7.1 as follows:
>
>Yes. That is what has to be done in the link types we have to=20
>support. I don't see any other way when there is just single=20
>/64 received from point-to-point WAN interface (in RA) which=20
>has to be enough for numbering the "CPE" itself and all the=20
>devices in Ethernet LAN behind.
>Please let me know if there is a better way.
>
>Only alternative I see is to have NAT66 in CPE similar to IPv4=20
>NAT we already have to share the single IPv4 address we get=20
>from operator.
>
>It would be very nice if there would be DHCPv6 PD available=20
>for "CPE" to ask for prefixes for LAN, but unfortunately that=20
>is not always the case.
>
>I think we discussed this in IETF#73 corridor, but I have=20
>forgotten details... So maybe I should write a link-type=20
>specific document, which would describe this behaviour (maybe=20
>corner-case from IETF point of view, but the most important=20
>use-case from my point of view)? After all, I guess it is=20
>better to describe it rather than have it just as=20
>implementation-specific design choice?
>
>Best regards,
>
>	Teemu (I will not be able to make the v6ops meeting as=20
>I have to be in shara BOF)
>
>
>*****
>
>The information transmitted is intended only for the person or=20
>entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential,=20
>proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any review,=20
>retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of=20
>any action in reliance upon this information by persons or=20
>entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If=20
>you received this in error, please contact the sender and=20
>delete the material from all computers. GA625
>
>
>


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 20 11:22:48 2009
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From: "Dan Wing" <dwing@cisco.com>
To: "'Stark, Barbara'" <bs7652@att.com>, "'Hemant Singh \(shemant\)'" <shemant@cisco.com>, <teemu.savolainen@nokia.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "'Wes Beebee \(wbeebee\)'" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
References: <110c01c99e03$c46343a0$c2f0200a@cisco.com> <021d01c99e10$888458d0$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D0632C486@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F2753475@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D12A@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F27535CF@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D20A@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA0D87FF79@crexc41p>
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:22:49 -0700
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org 
> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Stark, Barbara
> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 11:06 AM
> To: Hemant Singh (shemant); teemu.savolainen@nokia.com; 
> v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
> Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
> 
> Another alternative, might be for the router to allow the its owner to
> put it in a bridged mode, instead of router mode. The "CPE 
> router" could
> still get its own IPv6 address from the WAN, as a host should. But all
> devices in the LAN would effectively just be hosts off the WAN, and
> there would be no real LAN. There would be no ULA either. The question
> is whether the design of the WAN would limit the number of hosts that
> could be given addresses across that one interface. If that were the
> case, then this wouldn't work, and the CPE router would be 
> forced to do
> a NAT66.

That would create a reliance on the ISP network for the in-home 
network to function.  It would be ashame if my security system,
IP-enabled television and Blu-Ray player, TiVo, NAS, etc., 
all break if the access link is down.

Perhaps to avoid that problem the router could get smarter and
hand out ULAs if it notices the WAN is down.  But that idea 
feels pretty fragile, too.

-d


> In many ways, this case is very similar to that of the cascaded router
> that isn't given a prefix.
> 
> I don't think this is a corner case.
> Barbara
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Hemant Singh (shemant)
> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:39 PM
> To: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
> Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
> 
> Teemu,
> 
> If your SP does not dole out a PD to the CPE Rtr and as you say, your
> common case is just one /64 doled out to the WAN interface with PPP.
> Ok, so if your LAN interface(s) are assigned addresses using SLAAC,
> since SLAAC needs a /64, how can you possibly use the WAN's /64 to
> assign addresses to the LAN interface(s)?  It's not possible. 
>  Yes, you
> could run a DHCPv6 server in the device and then sub-delegate the /64.
> Hopefully such a DHCPv6 server sub-delegation is legal in IPv6
> standards...   
> 
> Alternatively, you can use ULA for the LAN and use the CPE Rtr as a
> router between WAN and LAN and not have anything to do with ND Proxy.
> 
> Hemant
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com] 
> Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:14 PM
> To: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
> Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
> 
> Thanks for quick reply, I was ok with other things than this one:
> 
> >- 7.1. In 3GPP case the /64 prefix is not only for LAN 
> >interfaces, but also for the WAN interface. Thus I'd rather 
> >say:".. across multiple LAN interfaces, possibly including WAN 
> >interfase as well, and the CPE router..". Then "..any two LAN 
> >interfaces.." -> "..any two interfaces..". And still later 
> >"..if any two disparate LAN interfaces..." -> "..if any two 
> >disparate interfaces..".
> >
> ><hs>
> >Disagree. You are suggesting one implement ND Proxy between 
> >the WAN and LAN interfaces.  For the CPE Rtr, the WAN and LAN 
> >interface(s) are two different routing domains - if one can 
> >perform routing between domains, why support ND Proxy?  We are 
> >also making the last sentence better in section 7.1 as follows:
> 
> Yes. That is what has to be done in the link types we have to 
> support. I
> don't see any other way when there is just single /64 received from
> point-to-point WAN interface (in RA) which has to be enough for
> numbering the "CPE" itself and all the devices in Ethernet LAN behind.
> Please let me know if there is a better way.
> 
> Only alternative I see is to have NAT66 in CPE similar to IPv4 NAT we
> already have to share the single IPv4 address we get from operator.
> 
> It would be very nice if there would be DHCPv6 PD available 
> for "CPE" to
> ask for prefixes for LAN, but unfortunately that is not 
> always the case.
> 
> I think we discussed this in IETF#73 corridor, but I have forgotten
> details... So maybe I should write a link-type specific 
> document, which
> would describe this behaviour (maybe corner-case from IETF point of
> view, but the most important use-case from my point of view)? 
> After all,
> I guess it is better to describe it rather than have it just as
> implementation-specific design choice?
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> 	Teemu (I will not be able to make the v6ops meeting as I have to
> be in shara BOF)
> 
> 
> *****
> 
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person 
> or entity to which it is addressed and may contain 
> confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any 
> review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or 
> taking of any action in reliance upon this information by 
> persons or entities other than the intended recipient is 
> prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the 
> sender and delete the material from all computers. GA625
> 
> 
> 



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Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 14:23:36 -0400
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Thread-Topic: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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References: <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301F1C14E@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com>
From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>, <teemu.savolainen@nokia.com>
Cc: <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Wes,

We already catered to Teemu by adding a ND Proxy section to the CPE Rtr
because I understood his case for disparate media.  What we will add to
that section is allow ND Proxy between the WAN and the LAN interfaces
and also list what kind of deployment uses such a ND Proxy by listing
the requirements we came up with below.

So, Teemu, you should be all set now, right?

Thanks,

Hemant

-----Original Message-----
From: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)=20
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 2:20 PM
To: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft

=20
Now I think I understand your requirements:

1) no PD
2) Only one /64 on the WAN link
3) Disparate link types (can't bridge)
4) Don't want NAT
5) Global communication for one or more LAN links
6) Want to use SLAAC for configuring all addresses

Yes, I agree, in this scenario, you'll need to use ND proxy between the
WAN and LAN links.  We can include this scenario and the need for ND
proxy in the CPE Router specification.

- Wes=20

-----Original Message-----
From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]
Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:55 PM
To: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft

Hemant,

Well, the RFC4389 describes this functionality of sharing the prefix
between WAN and LAN.

I don't see how the ULAs could be used for global communication by
devices in LAN.

Best regards,

	Teemu

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ext Hemant Singh (shemant) [mailto:shemant@cisco.com]
>Sent: 20 March, 2009 10:39
>To: Savolainen Teemu (Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>Teemu,
>
>If your SP does not dole out a PD to the CPE Rtr and as you say, your=20
>common case is just one /64 doled out to the WAN interface with PPP.
>Ok, so if your LAN interface(s) are assigned addresses using SLAAC,=20
>since SLAAC needs a /64, how can you possibly use the WAN's /64 to=20
>assign addresses to the LAN interface(s)?  It's not possible.  Yes, you

>could run a DHCPv6 server in the device and then sub-delegate the /64.
>Hopefully such a DHCPv6 server sub-delegation is legal in IPv6
>standards...  =20
>
>Alternatively, you can use ULA for the LAN and use the CPE Rtr as a=20
>router between WAN and LAN and not have anything to do with ND Proxy.
>
>Hemant
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]
>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:14 PM
>To: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>Thanks for quick reply, I was ok with other things than this one:
>
>>- 7.1. In 3GPP case the /64 prefix is not only for LAN
>interfaces, but
>>also for the WAN interface. Thus I'd rather say:".. across
>multiple LAN
>>interfaces, possibly including WAN interfase as well, and the CPE=20
>>router..". Then "..any two LAN interfaces.." -> "..any two=20
>>interfaces..". And still later "..if any two disparate LAN=20
>>interfaces..." -> "..if any two disparate interfaces..".
>>
>><hs>
>>Disagree. You are suggesting one implement ND Proxy between
>the WAN and
>>LAN interfaces.  For the CPE Rtr, the WAN and LAN
>>interface(s) are two different routing domains - if one can perform=20
>>routing between domains, why support ND Proxy?  We are also
>making the
>>last sentence better in section 7.1 as follows:
>
>Yes. That is what has to be done in the link types we have to support.=20
>I don't see any other way when there is just single
>/64 received from point-to-point WAN interface (in RA) which has to be=20
>enough for numbering the "CPE" itself and all the devices in Ethernet=20
>LAN behind.
>Please let me know if there is a better way.
>
>Only alternative I see is to have NAT66 in CPE similar to IPv4 NAT we=20
>already have to share the single IPv4 address we get from operator.
>
>It would be very nice if there would be DHCPv6 PD available for "CPE"=20
>to ask for prefixes for LAN, but unfortunately that is not always the=20
>case.
>
>I think we discussed this in IETF#73 corridor, but I have forgotten=20
>details... So maybe I should write a link-type specific document, which

>would describe this behaviour (maybe corner-case from IETF point of=20
>view, but the most important use-case from my point of view)? After=20
>all, I guess it is better to describe it rather than have it just as=20
>implementation-specific design choice?
>
>Best regards,
>
>	Teemu (I will not be able to make the v6ops meeting as I have to
be in=20
>shara BOF)
>


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 20 11:23:33 2009
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From:	 JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= <Jinmei_Tatuya@isc.org>
To:	 Nathan Ward <v6ops@daork.net>
Cc:	 v6ops WG <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: Fwd: I-D Action:draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00.txt 
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At Wed, 4 Mar 2009 00:36:00 +1300,
Nathan Ward <v6ops@daork.net> wrote:

> I have just submitted the following, comments appreciated! Please note  
> that it is very draft so I could get this in by the deadline and get  
> some discussion happening.

I've quickly read this draft.  It seems to me a reasonable and useful
proposal.  Here are some minor comments:

- I'd add a reference to RFC3068 with the first occurrence of
  "192.88.99.1".  (In section 2.2 of this version of draft).

- This 'MAY' looks awkward to me:

   SHALL cease.  Failure at this stage MAY mean an IPv4 firewall is in
   place.
   (Section 3.2, 4th para)

  because this doesn't actually define any implementation or
  operational behavior.  Can't this just be a lower-cased 'may'?
  (there's at least another awkward MAY in the draft)

- Section 5.1, 1st para

   A 24-bit IPv4 prefix, TBD1.  Only one IPv4 address is used, however
   24 bits is likely to be widely accepted in BGP peering sessions.

  I'd refer to RFC3068 since it provides more detailed rationale for
  the use of a /24 prefix.  It might even be better to say the
  rationale is the same (isn't it?) explicitly.

---
JINMEI, Tatuya
Internet Systems Consortium, Inc.


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From: <teemu.savolainen@nokia.com>
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Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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Wes, Hemant,

I'm very happy! We're all set now. You came up with very good list of requi=
rements.

I think the DHCPv6 PD is superior and should be the recommended solution, b=
ut when it is not available (like in current 3GPP cellular network standard=
s), we have need for ND proxy. Please let me know off-list if you need docu=
mentation references.

Best regards,

	Teemu

>-----Original Message-----
>From: ext Hemant Singh (shemant) [mailto:shemant@cisco.com]=20
>Sent: 20 March, 2009 11:24
>To: Wes Beebee (wbeebee); Savolainen Teemu (Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere)
>Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>Wes,
>
>We already catered to Teemu by adding a ND Proxy section to=20
>the CPE Rtr because I understood his case for disparate media.=20
> What we will add to that section is allow ND Proxy between=20
>the WAN and the LAN interfaces and also list what kind of=20
>deployment uses such a ND Proxy by listing the requirements we=20
>came up with below.
>
>So, Teemu, you should be all set now, right?
>
>Thanks,
>
>Hemant
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 2:20 PM
>To: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com
>Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>=20
>Now I think I understand your requirements:
>
>1) no PD
>2) Only one /64 on the WAN link
>3) Disparate link types (can't bridge)
>4) Don't want NAT
>5) Global communication for one or more LAN links
>6) Want to use SLAAC for configuring all addresses
>
>Yes, I agree, in this scenario, you'll need to use ND proxy=20
>between the WAN and LAN links.  We can include this scenario=20
>and the need for ND proxy in the CPE Router specification.
>
>- Wes=20
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]
>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:55 PM
>To: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>
>Hemant,
>
>Well, the RFC4389 describes this functionality of sharing the=20
>prefix between WAN and LAN.
>
>I don't see how the ULAs could be used for global=20
>communication by devices in LAN.
>
>Best regards,
>
>	Teemu
>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: ext Hemant Singh (shemant) [mailto:shemant@cisco.com]
>>Sent: 20 March, 2009 10:39
>>To: Savolainen Teemu (Nokia-D-MSW/Tampere); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>>
>>Teemu,
>>
>>If your SP does not dole out a PD to the CPE Rtr and as you say, your=20
>>common case is just one /64 doled out to the WAN interface with PPP.
>>Ok, so if your LAN interface(s) are assigned addresses using SLAAC,=20
>>since SLAAC needs a /64, how can you possibly use the WAN's /64 to=20
>>assign addresses to the LAN interface(s)?  It's not possible.=20
> Yes, you
>
>>could run a DHCPv6 server in the device and then sub-delegate the /64.
>>Hopefully such a DHCPv6 server sub-delegation is legal in IPv6
>>standards...  =20
>>
>>Alternatively, you can use ULA for the LAN and use the CPE Rtr as a=20
>>router between WAN and LAN and not have anything to do with ND Proxy.
>>
>>Hemant
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]
>>Sent: Friday, March 20, 2009 1:14 PM
>>To: Hemant Singh (shemant); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>>Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
>>Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
>>
>>Thanks for quick reply, I was ok with other things than this one:
>>
>>>- 7.1. In 3GPP case the /64 prefix is not only for LAN
>>interfaces, but
>>>also for the WAN interface. Thus I'd rather say:".. across
>>multiple LAN
>>>interfaces, possibly including WAN interfase as well, and the CPE=20
>>>router..". Then "..any two LAN interfaces.." -> "..any two=20
>>>interfaces..". And still later "..if any two disparate LAN=20
>>>interfaces..." -> "..if any two disparate interfaces..".
>>>
>>><hs>
>>>Disagree. You are suggesting one implement ND Proxy between
>>the WAN and
>>>LAN interfaces.  For the CPE Rtr, the WAN and LAN
>>>interface(s) are two different routing domains - if one can perform=20
>>>routing between domains, why support ND Proxy?  We are also
>>making the
>>>last sentence better in section 7.1 as follows:
>>
>>Yes. That is what has to be done in the link types we have to=20
>support.=20
>>I don't see any other way when there is just single
>>/64 received from point-to-point WAN interface (in RA) which=20
>has to be=20
>>enough for numbering the "CPE" itself and all the devices in Ethernet=20
>>LAN behind.
>>Please let me know if there is a better way.
>>
>>Only alternative I see is to have NAT66 in CPE similar to IPv4 NAT we=20
>>already have to share the single IPv4 address we get from operator.
>>
>>It would be very nice if there would be DHCPv6 PD available for "CPE"=20
>>to ask for prefixes for LAN, but unfortunately that is not always the=20
>>case.
>>
>>I think we discussed this in IETF#73 corridor, but I have forgotten=20
>>details... So maybe I should write a link-type specific=20
>document, which
>
>>would describe this behaviour (maybe corner-case from IETF point of=20
>>view, but the most important use-case from my point of view)? After=20
>>all, I guess it is better to describe it rather than have it just as=20
>>implementation-specific design choice?
>>
>>Best regards,
>>
>>	Teemu (I will not be able to make the v6ops meeting as I have to
>be in=20
>>shara BOF)
>>
>=


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 20 11:35:40 2009
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From: Nathan Ward <v6ops@daork.net>
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Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00.txt 
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 11:35:38 -0700
References: <20090303113001.36E1E3A6BFF@core3.amsl.com> <14E2E072-54AA-4743-9736-9AFE3A379AF1@daork.net> <m28wn0njd5.wl%Jinmei_Tatuya@isc.org>
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On 20/03/2009, at 11:23 AM, JINMEI Tatuya / =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=
=93=89 wrote:

> At Wed, 4 Mar 2009 00:36:00 +1300,
> Nathan Ward <v6ops@daork.net> wrote:
>
>> I have just submitted the following, comments appreciated! Please =20
>> note
>> that it is very draft so I could get this in by the deadline and get
>> some discussion happening.
>
> I've quickly read this draft.  It seems to me a reasonable and useful
> proposal.  Here are some minor comments:
>
> - I'd add a reference to RFC3068 with the first occurrence of
>  "192.88.99.1".  (In section 2.2 of this version of draft).

Yup - this was written fast before the deadline so is very short on =20
references.

> - This 'MAY' looks awkward to me:
>
>   SHALL cease.  Failure at this stage MAY mean an IPv4 firewall is in
>   place.
>   (Section 3.2, 4th para)
>
>  because this doesn't actually define any implementation or
>  operational behavior.  Can't this just be a lower-cased 'may'?
>  (there's at least another awkward MAY in the draft)

I have had this comment from Brian Carpenter as well, so will make =20
this change.

> - Section 5.1, 1st para
>
>   A 24-bit IPv4 prefix, TBD1.  Only one IPv4 address is used, however
>   24 bits is likely to be widely accepted in BGP peering sessions.
>
>  I'd refer to RFC3068 since it provides more detailed rationale for
>  the use of a /24 prefix.  It might even be better to say the
>  rationale is the same (isn't it?) explicitly.


Sounds good.

Cheers for your comments!

--
Nathan Ward



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 20 11:40:22 2009
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Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 08:39:50 -1000 (HST)
From: Antonio Querubin <tony@lava.net>
To: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com
cc: bs7652@att.com, shemant@cisco.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, wbeebee@cisco.com
Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
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On Fri, 20 Mar 2009, teemu.savolainen@nokia.com wrote:

> Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 19:15:27 +0100 From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com 
> To: bs7652@att.com, shemant@cisco.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org Cc: 
> wbeebee@cisco.com Subject: RE: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
> 
> Hi,
>
> In the case I look the network allocates unique /64 for the PPP link, 
> and thereby allows 2^64-1 or so addresses configured from that prefix 
> (network reserves one address for the router on the SP side of the 
> point-to-point link).
>
> Do we have terminology issue here? You could indeed say all hosts 
> configure IPv6 address from the prefix received via WAN interface, so 
> from that point of view all these hosts are logically connected to WAN, 
> although in reality they go trough the ND proxy device.
>
> It cannot be bridged, as the link types are different (PPP and 
> Ethernet), but proxied mode.

That assumes the WAN link is PPP.  However, it could be bridged ethernet, 
in which case the ND proxy seems the path of least resistance.

Antonio Querubin
whois:  AQ7-ARIN


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 20 12:10:16 2009
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From: Nathan Ward <v6ops@daork.net>
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Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00.txt 
Date: Fri, 20 Mar 2009 12:09:26 -0700
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A version -01 is available from http://don.braintrust.co.nz/~nward/draft-nward-6to4-qualification-01.txt 
  with the following changes:

- Explanation around what symmetric and asymmetric means in this  
context, and what they are for.
- Added a section discussing where this mechanism is appropriate. I'm  
open to better names for this section, the current one seems weird.
- Added a reference to RFC3056 in the first mention of 192.88.99.1
- Changed case for a MAY/may
- Changed some AAAA/BBBB etc. to non-hex characters (M, N, etc.)
- Added a reference to RFC3056 for /24 rationale - I also suggest a / 
32 for the IPv6 asymmetric prefix. Is there similar rationale I can  
point to for this?

I think that's it.

I will submit properly when the tool becomes available again.


Thanks all for your comments.

--
Nathan Ward



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 20 12:22:30 2009
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From:	 JINMEI Tatuya / =?ISO-2022-JP?B?GyRCP0BMQEMjOkgbKEI=?= <Jinmei_Tatuya@isc.org>
To:	 nward@braintrust.co.nz
Cc: v6ops WG <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: comments on draft-nward-ipv6-autoconfig-filtering-ethernet-00
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I've read this draft.  Here are some comments:

- Section 1, 1st para

   [...], and many hosts already listen for RA
   messages and then subsequent to receiving and RA message either
   configure addressing statelessly, or statefully with DHCPv6.

  I can't grammatically parse this clause, especially about "then
  subsequent to receiving and RA message".  Is this perhaps

   [...], and many hosts already listen for RA
   messages and then subsequent to receiving an RA message either
   configure addressing statelessly, or statefully with DHCPv6.

  or something?

- Section 2.1, in the table:
  s/Router;s/Router's/

   | Destination IPv6  | FF01::1 for unsolicited, an address in        |
   | Address           | FE80::/64 for solicited                       |

  s/FF01::1/FF02::1/

  "FE80::/64 for solicited" is certainly the typical case, but is not
  the only possibility.  The source of RS can be any unicast address
  (including) global, and the router can send a unicast RA to that
  address.

- Section 2.2, 1st para

   DHCPv6 reply messages SHOULD only be sent by DHCPv6 servers and
   relays, and so should only enter a switch from a port with a DHCPv6
   server or relay, and/or from a DHCPv6 server or relay's link-local
   IPv6 address or ethernet MAC address.

  This is not really correct either.  As far as I understand it,
  there's no restriction on the source address of a DHCPv6 reply
  message.  In particular, if the client and (off-link) server
  exchange unicast messages directly after the server allows it with
  the Server Unicast Option, the source address of a DHCPv6 reply from
  a server should be non-link-local.

- Section 2.2, in the table

   | Destination IPv6      | An address in FE80::/64                   |

  This is also not (always) true.  One counter example is the above
  case where a client and an off-link server exchange messages
  directly.  Even if the reply is sent from an on-link node (always
  the case for a relay), RFC3315 doesn't require the destination
  address is a link-local address.

   | UDP source port       | 547                                       |

  I believe this is also not always true.  RFC3315 only requires the
  server to listen to port 547, but doesn't say the server use the
  same source port for messages it generates.

Admittedly, these cases are rare exceptions, so if we propose
something strict concentrating on typical scenarios, that may make
sense.  But in that case we should at least note that it's not a
protocol level requirement and there can be exception that was broken
by the proposed filtering rule.


- Section 3, 1st para

   An ethernet switch MUST be able to be configured to filter Router
   Advertisement and DHCPv6 reply messages under one or both of the
   following conditions:

  This MUST sounds too strong to me in a general statement like this.
  Personally, I wouldn't use any RFC2119 keyword here, and IMO more
  clarification is needed about in which case this requirement is
  mandated if we keep the MUST.

- Section 3.1

   It may be desirable for a switch to only transmit Router Solicitation
   and DHCPv6 request messages out a port if it is configured as a port
   having a router, DHCPv6 server or relay.  Comment is sought for this.

  At least other DHCPv6 message that client can send must be allowed,
  i.e, all but Reply and Reconfigure.  Relay-forward should also be
  allowed.

---
JINMEI, Tatuya
Internet Systems Consortium, Inc.


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 20 16:01:56 2009
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Subject: Re: Posted a new copy of CPE Rtr draft
References: <110c01c99e03$c46343a0$c2f0200a@cisco.com> <021d01c99e10$888458d0$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D0632C486@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F27F2753475@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D12A@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com>
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On 2009-03-21 04:36, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:
> Teemu,
> 
> Thanks for the review.  Please see inline below between <hs> and </hs>.
...

> 
> - You mention DNS64 in the document (8.6), do you envision CPE router
> could implement NAT64 as wall? I think NAT64 could be left out or just
> mentioned shortly - without going into details (so that completing this
> work would not pend on NAT64 work's progress), but how do you see?
> 
> <hs>
> We have deliberately stayed away from NAT64 so far.  However, if a CGN
> document says the CGN cannot support NA64 and the CPE Rtr must do so, we
> are open to adding NAT64 to the CPE Rtr.
> </hs>

I'd be very surprised to see a CGN document making such a statement.
The case you are suggesting is, I think, where the CPE has no path
to a NAT64 (either a NAT64 provided by the subscriber's ISP, built
into a CGN or not, or some NAT64 elsewehere). The scenario discussion
in BEHAVE may clarify this, but for now we can say nothing IMHO.

    Brian


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From owens@ultrasis.com  Sat Mar 21 01:36:16 2009
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Subject: The affordable watch alternative

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From matthew.meier@ch2m.com  Sat Mar 21 03:02:31 2009
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Subject: Patek Phillipe watch models from 2009!
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Hello Nikki

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From p-taisho@k-sn.co.jp  Sat Mar 21 03:18:12 2009
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Nathan

for the TBD1 IPv4 address please remember that there is a proposal to  
create a special registry in IANA in:
draft-iana-special-ipv4-registry-01.txt

you could refer to this.

r.

On Mar 20, 2009, at 12:09 PM, Nathan Ward wrote:

> A version -01 is available from http://don.braintrust.co.nz/~nward/draft-nward-6to4-qualification-01.txt 
>  with the following changes:
>
> - Explanation around what symmetric and asymmetric means in this  
> context, and what they are for.
> - Added a section discussing where this mechanism is appropriate.  
> I'm open to better names for this section, the current one seems  
> weird.
> - Added a reference to RFC3056 in the first mention of 192.88.99.1
> - Changed case for a MAY/may
> - Changed some AAAA/BBBB etc. to non-hex characters (M, N, etc.)
> - Added a reference to RFC3056 for /24 rationale - I also suggest a / 
> 32 for the IPv6 asymmetric prefix. Is there similar rationale I can  
> point to for this?
>
> I think that's it.
>
> I will submit properly when the tool becomes available again.
>
>
> Thanks all for your comments.
>
> --
> Nathan Ward
>


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Nathan<div><br></div><div>for =
the TBD1 IPv4 address please remember that there is a proposal to create =
a special registry in IANA =
in:</div><div>draft-iana-special-ipv4-registry-01.txt</div><div><br></div>=
<div>you could refer to =
this.</div><div><br></div><div>r.</div><div><br><div><div><div>On Mar =
20, 2009, at 12:09 PM, Nathan Ward wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div>A =
version -01 is available from <a =
href=3D"http://don.braintrust.co.nz/~nward/draft-nward-6to4-qualification-=
01.txt">http://don.braintrust.co.nz/~nward/draft-nward-6to4-qualification-=
01.txt</a> with the following changes:<br><br>- Explanation around what =
symmetric and asymmetric means in this context, and what they are =
for.<br>- Added a section discussing where this mechanism is =
appropriate. I'm open to better names for this section, the current one =
seems weird.<br>- Added a reference to RFC3056 in the first mention of =
192.88.99.1<br>- Changed case for a MAY/may<br>- Changed some AAAA/BBBB =
etc. to non-hex characters (M, N, etc.)<br>- Added a reference to =
RFC3056 for /24 rationale - I also suggest a /32 for the IPv6 asymmetric =
prefix. Is there similar rationale I can point to for this?<br><br>I =
think that's it.<br><br>I will submit properly when the tool becomes =
available again.<br><br><br>Thanks all for your =
comments.<br><br>--<br>Nathan =
Ward<br><br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></body></html>=

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From pantomimeclick.zusammenhang@bongfaschist.de  Sun Mar 22 10:57:59 2009
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From: "Merle Carney" <eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
To: "Nora Tidwell" <eap-archive@megatron.ietf.org>
Subject: Winter quality watches offer
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Date: Sun, 22 Mar 2009 13:58:34 -0500

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Sincerely,
Mr Tidwell






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From smugism@ernet.in  Sun Mar 22 16:43:30 2009
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Subject: Rep will save you thousands
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The meeting will be in Imperial A Monday and Imperial B on Friday.

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Morgan Sackett <msackett@verilan.com>
> Date: March 21, 2009 3:55:29 PM PDT
> To: ietf@ietf.org
> Subject: Audio Streams for IETF 74 in San Francisco
>
> There will be MP3 audio streams of the meetings happening in the  
> breakout rooms.  Specifically these are
>
> Continental 1&2
> Continental 3
> Continental 4
> Continental 5
> Continental 6
> Imperial A
> Imperial B
> Franciscan A
>
> Please refer to the online agenda at http://tools.ietf.org/agenda/ 
> 74/ to find a link to the stream for each session.
>
> If there are concerns about the audio streams, there are a few ways  
> to get our attention.  Via email either audio@meeting.ietf.org, or noc@meeting.ietf.org 
> .  Via XMPP at noc@jabber.ietf.org.
>
> Morgan Sackett
> VP of Engineering
>
> VeriLAN Event Services, Inc.
> 215 SE Morrison Street
> Portland, OR 97214
>
> Tel: 503 907-1415
> Fax: 503 224-8833
>
> msackett@verilan.com
> www.verilan.com
>
>
> This e-mail contains proprietary information and may be  
> confidential. If you are not the intended recipient of this e-mail,  
> you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or  
> copying of this message is strictly prohibited. If you received this  
> message in error, please delete it immediately.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From rokmc776aa@nate.com  Mon Mar 23 02:04:04 2009
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Subject: Rep will save you thousands
Message-ID: <Utryc9755yu53Sutools-team@ietf.org>
From: "Emery Vance" <tools-team@ietf.org>
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To: "Gene Vernon" <tools-team@ietf.org>
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 05:04:31 -0500

Hello Eugenia

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Mr Santana



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 23 10:26:05 2009
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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-04
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:22:33 -0700
References: <20090323172020.408793A6C32@core3.amsl.com>
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On Mar 23, 2009, at 10:20, IETF I-D Submission Tool wrote:
>
> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-04.txt  
> has been successfuly submitted by James Woodyatt and posted to the  
> IETF repository.

This draft is a very minor update to make the references current and  
update the IPR boilerplate.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 23 10:31:16 2009
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Recommended Simple Security Capabilities in Customer Premises Equipment for Providing Residential IPv6 Internet Service
	Author(s)       : J. Woodyatt
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-04.txt
	Pages           : 31
	Date            : 2009-03-23

This document makes specific recommendations to the makers of devices
that provide "simple security" capabilities at the perimeter of
local-area IPv6 networks in Internet-enabled homes and small offices.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-04.txt

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 23 10:58:58 2009
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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
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Subject: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 10:58:17 -0700
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everyone--

I see this topic came up once before, but I have a different comment.

-----
Section 5 "Basic IPv6 Provisioning" says:
> The CPE Router MUST support at least one of two WAN interface  
> models, one of which will be active on the CPE Router at any given  
> time.
p1. If the CPE router only supports one of the two, then only one will  
be active at any given time.

p2. If I were running an ISP, I'd be very suspicious of this  
requirement on CPE router vendors that they MUST support "at least one  
of two" and not both WAN interface models.  Fortunately, I'm on the  
other side of that fence, so I'm very pleased to see that I can refuse  
to support the Unnumbered Model and still comply with Best Current  
Practice.

p3. I'm deeply confused about how the default route is communicated to  
the CPE router over its WAN link from the service provider in the  
Unnumbered Model.

-----
Section 5.4 "Process RAs"

Do these include RFC 4191 More Specific Route advertisements?  Yay!   
That will make the rogue RA problem a whole lot more fun.

-----

I'm still going through the draft.  Sorry for my slow progress.  Sigh.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From wilma@beijen.nl  Mon Mar 23 11:17:40 2009
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To: "Elvira Stiles" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
From: "Dominique Stanton" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: Save thousands... no one will know
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 14:18:21 -0500
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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In line below between <hs-wb> and </hs-wb>.

Section 5 "Basic IPv6 Provisioning" says:
> The CPE Router MUST support at least one of two WAN interface =20
> models, one of which will be active on the CPE Router at any given =20
> time.
p1. If the CPE router only supports one of the two, then only one will =20
be active at any given time.

p2. If I were running an ISP, I'd be very suspicious of this =20
requirement on CPE router vendors that they MUST support "at least one =20
of two" and not both WAN interface models.  Fortunately, I'm on the =20
other side of that fence, so I'm very pleased to see that I can refuse =20
to support the Unnumbered Model and still comply with Best Current =20
Practice.

<hs-wb>
This is exactly what the CableLabs specified eRouter does.
</hs-wb>

p3. I'm deeply confused about how the default route is communicated to =20
the CPE router over its WAN link from the service provider in the =20
Unnumbered Model.

<hs-wb>
Numbered or Unnumbered models aside, the CPE Rtr receives an RA from the
neighboring first hop SP router. CPE Rtr receives the RA and knows this
is the IPv6 default router.
</hs-wb>


-----
Section 5.4 "Process RAs"

Do these include RFC 4191 More Specific Route advertisements?  Yay!  =20
That will make the rogue RA problem a whole lot more fun.


<hs-wb>
This section clearly discusses only the direction where an RA comes to
the CPE Rtr from the SP router to the home.  For a cable and DSL network
the SP to the cable modem or DSL modem link is cable RF transport or DSL
telco network.  Such networks are deemed very secure.  A Rogue RA is not
expected in this direction.   Outside of this section of our document,
we can totally agree that a rouge RA may be sent from say, a Windows or
MAC personal computer attached to the CPE Rtr in a direction upstream
from the CPE Rtr to the SP network.  A CPE Rtr has to block any RA from
the home to the SP network. =20
</hs-wb>
-----


I'm still going through the draft.  Sorry for my slow progress.  Sigh.

<hs-wb>
No worries.  Comments are welcome any time.
</hs-wb>

Hemant & Wes



--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering





From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 23 12:25:35 2009
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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 12:24:24 -0700
References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D789@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com>
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On Mar 23, 2009, at 11:25, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:
>
> <hs-wb>
> Numbered or Unnumbered models aside, the CPE Rtr receives an RA from  
> the
> neighboring first hop SP router. CPE Rtr receives the RA and knows  
> this
> is the IPv6 default router.
> </hs-wb>

I don't see in the Unnumbered Model where the CPE is required to send  
any RS, nor do I think it's safe to assume that CPE routers will ever  
receive any unsolicited multicast RA announcements.

> -----
> Section 5.4 "Process RAs"
>
> Do these include RFC 4191 More Specific Route advertisements?  Yay!
> That will make the rogue RA problem a whole lot more fun.
>
>
> <hs-wb>
> This section clearly discusses only the direction where an RA comes to
> the CPE Rtr from the SP router to the home.  For a cable and DSL  
> network
> the SP to the cable modem or DSL modem link is cable RF transport or  
> DSL
> telco network.  Such networks are deemed very secure.  A Rogue RA is  
> not
> expected in this direction.

Be careful here.  RFC4191 MoreSpecificRoute messages, properly formed,  
are neither rogue nor accidental.

So.  Are CPE routers required to process RFC4191 MoreSpecificRoute  
options, or are they required to ignore them?  Or does this draft even  
want to take a position?



--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




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Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-04
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 12:25:34 -0700
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On Mar 23, 2009, at 10:22, james woodyatt wrote:
> On Mar 23, 2009, at 10:20, IETF I-D Submission Tool wrote:
>>
>> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-04.txt  
>> has been successfuly submitted by James Woodyatt and posted to the  
>> IETF repository.
>
> This draft is a very minor update to make the references current and  
> update the IPR boilerplate.

One of my coworkers, Johnny Zweig, has already found a typographical  
error in Section 3.1, i.e. s/that/than/ in R2.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:08:14 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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>I don't see in the Unnumbered Model where the CPE is required to send =20
>any RS, nor do I think it's safe to assume that CPE routers will ever =20
>receive any unsolicited multicast RA announcements.

When a network interface on any router inits itself and performs any
"address acquisition", the network interface of the router is acting as
a host.  According to RFC 4861, section 4.1, the text says that hosts
send RS to solicit an RA quickly.  Even in the Unnumbered model, the CPE
Router will use a LAN interface or Loopback interface IPV6 address to
source packets - this is equivalent to the WAN interface "acquiring" an
address.  However, it is loose.  We can certainly mandate in the
Unnumbered section that the WAN interface MUST send an RS.=20


>Be careful here.  RFC4191 MoreSpecificRoute messages, properly formed,

>are neither rogue nor accidental.
>So.  Are CPE routers required to process RFC4191 MoreSpecificRoute =20
>options, or are they required to ignore them?  Or does this draft even

>want to take a position?

This draft takes the position taken by RFC 4861 which in section 4.2
says
[Future versions of this protocol may define new option types.
 Receivers MUST silently ignore any options they do not recognize
 and continue processing the message.]

Cable CMTS and DSLAM nodes at the SP edge have no need to be multi-homed
which is one reason to consider RFC 4191.  Also if you look at the "IPv6
Node Requirements RFC 4294-bis", this document does NOT mention RFC 4191
and hence so we won't either.  Is there a compelling reason for the CPE
Rtr to support RFC 4191?  If there is, you have to take it up first with
the "IPv6 Node Requirements RFC 4294-bis" folks.

Hemant




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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 14:23:07 -0700
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On Mar 23, 2009, at 14:08, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:
> We can certainly mandate in the Unnumbered section that the WAN  
> interface MUST send an RS.

I think that might help clarify the issue.

> This draft takes the position taken by RFC 4861 which in section 4.2
> says [Future versions of this protocol may define new option types.
> Receivers MUST silently ignore any options they do not recognize
> and continue processing the message.]

Does RFC 4191 not predate RFC 4861?  Yes, I realize that RFC 4191 was  
not categorized as an update of RFC 2461, the predecessor of RFC 4861,  
but it's really not fair to treat a standards-track RFC published over  
three years ago as a "future" specification.

If the draft doesn't want to take a position on whether CPE routers  
MUST, SHOULD NOT, MAY or MAY NOT process RFC 4191 More Specific Route  
options, then I think it would help to be explicit about it.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 17:41:12 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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>I think that might help clarify the issue.

Thank you for bringing up this point.  We will clarify the RS in the
Unnumbered model in the next revision of the draft.

>Does RFC 4191 not predate RFC 4861?  Yes, I realize that RFC 4191 was =20
>not categorized as an update of RFC 2461, the predecessor of RFC 4861,

>but it's really not fair to treat a standards-track RFC published over

>three years ago as a "future" specification.

>If the draft doesn't want to take a position on whether CPE routers =20
>MUST, SHOULD NOT, MAY or MAY NOT process RFC 4191 More Specific Route =20
>options, then I think it would help to be explicit about it.

We are working off of the "IPv6 Node Requirements RFC 4294-bis" and
won't go against this document.  If a gotcha is found, we will have RFC
4294-bis changed and then apply the change to the CPE Rtr.  Since RFC
4294-bis does not mention RFC 4191, our draft's position is crystal
clear in this regard.  Our draft will follow RFC 4861 because that is
what RFC 4294-bis goes by.  Again, unless something is critically needed
from RFC 4191 to be mandated for the CPE Rtr, we may close this
discussion.=20

Thanks,

Hemant




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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 14:47:10 -0700
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On Mar 23, 2009, at 10:58 AM, james woodyatt wrote:

> p2. If I were running an ISP, I'd be very suspicious of this  
> requirement on CPE router vendors that they MUST support "at least  
> one of two" and not both WAN interface models.  Fortunately, I'm on  
> the other side of that fence, so I'm very pleased to see that I can  
> refuse to support the Unnumbered Model and still comply with Best  
> Current Practice.

That wasn't how I interpreted it. It said that you need to support  
both, as some ISPs will go one way and some the other.


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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On Mar 23, 2009, at 14:41, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:
>
> ...unless something is critically needed from RFC 4191 to be  
> mandated for the CPE Rtr, we may close this
> discussion.

I want the draft amended to recognize explicitly that CPE routers MAY  
transmit and receive RFC 4191 More Explicit Route messages on their  
WAN link.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 15:28:33 -0700
References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <215BF73C-7C0D-4DAF-B399-7E812A8FB4A2@cisco.com>
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On Mar 23, 2009, at 14:47, Fred Baker wrote:
> On Mar 23, 2009, at 10:58 AM, james woodyatt wrote:
>>
>> p2. If I were running an ISP, I'd be very suspicious of this  
>> requirement on CPE router vendors that they MUST support "at least  
>> one of two" and not both WAN interface models.  Fortunately, I'm on  
>> the other side of that fence, so I'm very pleased to see that I can  
>> refuse to support the Unnumbered Model and still comply with Best  
>> Current Practice.
>
> That wasn't how I interpreted it. It said that you need to support  
> both, as some ISPs will go one way and some the other.

Then I think this recommendation should be worded differently.  It  
could better describe this by using language that makes sense from the  
perspective of CPE router developers, e.g.:

   Service providers require CPE routers to support at least one of two
   WAN interface models, of which only one MUST be active on the CPE  
router
   at any given time.

I think that would more clearly describe Fred's interpretation of the  
language I'm seeing in the existing draft.  As the draft stands, I  
don't see any recommendation that CPE routers support both of the two  
WAN interface models, only a recommendation to support "at least one"  
of them.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 3:12 PM, james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com> wrote:
> On Mar 23, 2009, at 14:41, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:
>>
>> ...unless something is critically needed from RFC 4191 to be mandated for
>> the CPE Rtr, we may close this
>> discussion.
>
> I want the draft amended to recognize explicitly that CPE routers MAY
> transmit and receive RFC 4191 More Explicit Route messages on their WAN
> link.

and turning ND into a routing protocol?

Ole


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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 16:02:15 -0700
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On Mar 23, 2009, at 15:57, Ole Troan wrote:
>
> ...and turning ND into a routing protocol?


 From Section 1 of RFC 4191:
>> We use Router Advertisement messages, instead of some other  
>> protocol like RIP [RFC2080], because Router Advertisements are an  
>> existing standard, stable protocol for router-to-host  
>> communication. Piggybacking this information on existing message  
>> traffic from routers to hosts reduces network overhead. Neighbor  
>> Discovery shares with Multicast Listener Discovery the property  
>> that they both define host-to-router interactions, while shielding  
>> the host from having to participate in more general router-to- 
>> router interactions. In addition, RIP is unsuitable because it does  
>> not carry route lifetimes so it requires frequent message traffic  
>> with greater processing overheads.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 4:02 PM, james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com> wrote:
> On Mar 23, 2009, at 15:57, Ole Troan wrote:
>>
>> ...and turning ND into a routing protocol?
>
>
> From Section 1 of RFC 4191:
>>>
>>> We use Router Advertisement messages, instead of some other protocol like
>>> RIP [RFC2080], because Router Advertisements are an existing standard,
>>> stable protocol for router-to-host communication. Piggybacking this
>>> information on existing message traffic from routers to hosts reduces
>>> network overhead. Neighbor Discovery shares with Multicast Listener
>>> Discovery the property that they both define host-to-router interactions,
>>> while shielding the host from having to participate in more general
>>> router-to-router interactions. In addition, RIP is unsuitable because it
>>> does not carry route lifetimes so it requires frequent message traffic with
>>> greater processing overheads.

indeed. MSR is a router-to-host mechanism. the CPE acts for some
purposes as a host on the upstream interface. do you expect the MSR
routes to be limited to be used only for the host part of the CPE (i.e
communication originating from the CPE) or to make it into the CPE's
forwarding table?

Ole


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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On Mar 23, 2009, at 16:39, Ole Troan wrote:
> From Section 1 of RFC 4191:
>>
>> We use Router Advertisement messages, instead of some other  
>> protocol like
>> RIP [RFC2080], because Router Advertisements are an existing  
>> standard,
>> stable protocol for router-to-host communication. Piggybacking this
>> information on existing message traffic from routers to hosts reduces
>> network overhead. Neighbor Discovery shares with Multicast Listener
>> Discovery the property that they both define host-to-router  
>> interactions,
>> while shielding the host from having to participate in more general
>> router-to-router interactions. In addition, RIP is unsuitable  
>> because it
>> does not carry route lifetimes so it requires frequent message  
>> traffic with
>> greater processing overheads.
>
> indeed. MSR is a router-to-host mechanism. the CPE acts for some
> purposes as a host on the upstream interface. do you expect the MSR
> routes to be limited to be used only for the host part of the CPE (i.e
> communication originating from the CPE) or to make it into the CPE's
> forwarding table?


Yes, naturally.  Why not?

If I were planning to implement a CPE router that processed received  
RA with RFC 4191 MSR options, I'm pretty sure I would do it so that  
the routes used by the node implementation were the same routes used  
by the forwarding implementation.  It would be a lot of extra hassle  
to maintain two route tables, and the payoff would seem quite unclear  
to me.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




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Subject: Re: Load Balancing for Mobile IP
Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 18:03:20 -0700
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Coming back to the WG with a question from this morning. We looked at =20=

the Load Balancing draft and our initial reaction was to ask Mobile IP =20=

to look at it. Mobile IP (Marcelo) is saying that they can look at the =20=

issue if there is a requirement, but they cannot determine whether =20
there is a requirement.

ISPs on the list - is this kind of issue a requirement for you?


On Mar 23, 2009, at 3:00 PM, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:

> I can see that the particular solution doesn't belong to v6ops, but =20=

> whether the question whether problem is real or not does seem to =20
> belong to v6ops, right?
> I mean, certainly mext cannot have a position on whether we need a =20
> load balancing mechanism for servers. We can certianly work on =20
> adapting MIP6 to support this, and whether a MIP6 solution is =20
> feasible and reaosnable, but i don't think we can detemrine if this =20=

> work needs to be done
>
>
> Fred Baker escribi=F3:
>> The feedback in v6ops was as I stated. They thought this discussion =20=

>> belonged in your working group.
>>
>> On Mar 23, 2009, at 2:49 PM, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
>>
>>> Fred Baker escribi=F3:
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 23, 2009, at 2:13 PM, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi Fred,
>>>>>
>>>>> quickly checked the draft, and my first thoughts are:
>>>>> - seems only to deal with mip6 and not mip4, so i guess the mip4 =20=

>>>>> guys could be off the hook, if they want to
>>>>> - seems to fall somewhere between 6man, mext and v6ops...
>>>>>
>>>>> I think the first question is whether we need this or not. I =20
>>>>> think this input should come from ops, so that would be you :-)
>>>>
>>>> The CNNIC authors are looking at it from the perspective of =20
>>>> Chinese telecom requirements. I'll let them tell me I'm wrong, =20
>>>> but I presume they think this is important for their part of the =20=

>>>> world at minimum.
>>>>
>>>
>>> so, what was the feedback in v6ops?
>>> i mean, was any other people other than the authors that thought =20
>>> this was needed?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>> If you guys decide we need soemthing on these lines, we can then =20=

>>>>> figure out if we do it in mext or in 6man, or both of them, =20
>>>>> jointly.
>>>>
>>>> I think one of those makes more sense than v6ops.
>>>>
>>>>> sounds reasonable?
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards, marcelo
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fred Baker escribi=F3:
>>>>>> I'd like to bring
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam
>>>>>> "Load Balancing based on IPv6 Anycast and pseudo-Mobility", =20
>>>>>> Wanming Luo,
>>>>>> XiaoDong Lee, Wei Mao, Mei Wang, 3-Nov-08,
>>>>>> <draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam-00.txt>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to your attention. We discussed it briefly this morning in =20
>>>>>> v6ops, as it is intended as a load-sharing solution. The sense =20=

>>>>>> of the room was that it either belonged in Mobile IP, or that =20
>>>>>> we need to work together with Mobile IP on it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> How would you recommend proceeding?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>



From patricio@redesycomunic.com.ar  Mon Mar 23 18:16:02 2009
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Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2009 21:16:45 -0500
Subject: The affordable watch alternative
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Hello Alexander

If you've waited to get your Gucci watch, this is the right time to go for it.
http://baker516.freehostingz.com


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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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James,

>>> We use Router Advertisement messages, instead of some other protocol li=
ke
>>> RIP [RFC2080], because Router Advertisements are an existing standard,
>>> stable protocol for router-to-host communication. Piggybacking this
>>> information on existing message traffic from routers to hosts reduces
>>> network overhead. Neighbor Discovery shares with Multicast Listener
>>> Discovery the property that they both define host-to-router interaction=
s,
>>> while shielding the host from having to participate in more general
>>> router-to-router interactions. In addition, RIP is unsuitable because i=
t
>>> does not carry route lifetimes so it requires frequent message traffic
>>> with
>>> greater processing overheads.
>>
>> indeed. MSR is a router-to-host mechanism. the CPE acts for some
>> purposes as a host on the upstream interface. do you expect the MSR
>> routes to be limited to be used only for the host part of the CPE (i.e
>> communication originating from the CPE) or to make it into the CPE's
>> forwarding table?
>
>
> Yes, naturally. =A0Why not?

because we have protocols doing that already? (RIP, OSPF, ISIS, BGP...)

> If I were planning to implement a CPE router that processed received RA w=
ith
> RFC 4191 MSR options, I'm pretty sure I would do it so that the routes us=
ed
> by the node implementation were the same routes used by the forwarding
> implementation. =A0It would be a lot of extra hassle to maintain two rout=
e
> tables, and the payoff would seem quite unclear to me.

iff you wanted to make ND into a routing protocol using MSRs, I
believe you would have to change RFC4191. and possibly the main ND
spec, as routers doesn't listen to ND.

if I understand this draft correctly it behaves both as a host (doing
address assignment) and as a router (forwarding packets) on the
upstream interface. that behaviour isn't described in RFC4861. I don't
see any harm in e.g doing SLAAC as that's purely a host function.
processing MSR routes on the other hand configures the router.

Ole


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Mar 24 03:54:43 2009
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:19:42 +1030
From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, mext-chairs@tools.ietf.org, mip4-chairs@tools.ietf.org, Kurt Erik Lindqvist <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>, mext-ads@tools.ietf.org, draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: Load Balancing for Mobile IP
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Hi Fred,

On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 18:03:20 -0700
Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com> wrote:

> Coming back to the WG with a question from this morning. We looked at =20
> the Load Balancing draft and our initial reaction was to ask Mobile IP =20
> to look at it. Mobile IP (Marcelo) is saying that they can look at the =20
> issue if there is a requirement, but they cannot determine whether =20
> there is a requirement.
>=20
> ISPs on the list - is this kind of issue a requirement for you?
>=20

Yes. It was terrible to have to enable universal MSS hacking on
10 000s of ADSL customers' connections, just to deal with broken PMTUD
on PPPoE connections, caused by some NATting load balancers which broke
end-to-end transparency of ICMP Dest Unreachable Packet Too Bigs. A
IETF specified, NATless IPv6 load balancing solution would be great.

Regards,
Mark.

>=20
> On Mar 23, 2009, at 3:00 PM, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
>=20
> > I can see that the particular solution doesn't belong to v6ops, but =20
> > whether the question whether problem is real or not does seem to =20
> > belong to v6ops, right?
> > I mean, certainly mext cannot have a position on whether we need a =20
> > load balancing mechanism for servers. We can certianly work on =20
> > adapting MIP6 to support this, and whether a MIP6 solution is =20
> > feasible and reaosnable, but i don't think we can detemrine if this =20
> > work needs to be done
> >
> >
> > Fred Baker escribi=F3:
> >> The feedback in v6ops was as I stated. They thought this discussion =20
> >> belonged in your working group.
> >>
> >> On Mar 23, 2009, at 2:49 PM, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
> >>
> >>> Fred Baker escribi=F3:
> >>>>
> >>>> On Mar 23, 2009, at 2:13 PM, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> Hi Fred,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> quickly checked the draft, and my first thoughts are:
> >>>>> - seems only to deal with mip6 and not mip4, so i guess the mip4 =20
> >>>>> guys could be off the hook, if they want to
> >>>>> - seems to fall somewhere between 6man, mext and v6ops...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I think the first question is whether we need this or not. I =20
> >>>>> think this input should come from ops, so that would be you :-)
> >>>>
> >>>> The CNNIC authors are looking at it from the perspective of =20
> >>>> Chinese telecom requirements. I'll let them tell me I'm wrong, =20
> >>>> but I presume they think this is important for their part of the =20
> >>>> world at minimum.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> so, what was the feedback in v6ops?
> >>> i mean, was any other people other than the authors that thought =20
> >>> this was needed?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> If you guys decide we need soemthing on these lines, we can then =20
> >>>>> figure out if we do it in mext or in 6man, or both of them, =20
> >>>>> jointly.
> >>>>
> >>>> I think one of those makes more sense than v6ops.
> >>>>
> >>>>> sounds reasonable?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards, marcelo
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Fred Baker escribi=F3:
> >>>>>> I'd like to bring
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam
> >>>>>> "Load Balancing based on IPv6 Anycast and pseudo-Mobility", =20
> >>>>>> Wanming Luo,
> >>>>>> XiaoDong Lee, Wei Mao, Mei Wang, 3-Nov-08,
> >>>>>> <draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam-00.txt>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> to your attention. We discussed it briefly this morning in =20
> >>>>>> v6ops, as it is intended as a load-sharing solution. The sense =20
> >>>>>> of the room was that it either belonged in Mobile IP, or that =20
> >>>>>> we need to work together with Mobile IP on it.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> How would you recommend proceeding?
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
>=20
>=20


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From: "=?utf-8?B?bHVvd2FubWluZw==?=" <luowanming@cnnic.cn>
To: "=?utf-8?B?TWFyayBTbWl0aA==?=" <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>, "=?utf-8?B?RnJlZCBCYWtlcg==?=" <fred@cisco.com>
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References: <A16EEC0B-822C-44BA-B875-0D9AA6BE7A00@cisco.com>, <49C7FB72.5020104@it.uc3m.es>, <0C2F04C3-1091-4C82-9F10-0F0675508A93@cisco.com>, <49C80401.1040809@it.uc3m.es>, <A9295D76-089E-49E3-BF91-573AA668D8DF@cisco.com>, <49C80678.6080508@it.uc3m.es>, <5801C1F3-B267-41EC-8A44-11C6A419851F@cisco.com>, <437894020.05666@cnnic.cn>
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--=====003_Dragon742880878072_=====--



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Mar 24 07:29:14 2009
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 10:28:33 -0400
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From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
To: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>, "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>
Cc: "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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CableLabs has decided in the eRouter specification (one particular
instantiation of the CPE Router) that cable providers will never use the
unnumbered model.  Therefore, for the eRouter (which will only
ever be used in a cable network), the unnumbered model is not required.

However, DSL/3GPP networks will likely use the unnumbered model.

If a CPE Router can be used in both networks (like a standalone CPE
Router), then you'll need to=20
support both - because you can't be certain who will be using your
router.

Therefore, you'll need to support both unless you have linktype-specific
knowledge that allows you to rule one out.

- Wes

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Fred Baker (fred)
Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 5:47 PM
To: james woodyatt
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments


On Mar 23, 2009, at 10:58 AM, james woodyatt wrote:

> p2. If I were running an ISP, I'd be very suspicious of this=20
> requirement on CPE router vendors that they MUST support "at least one

> of two" and not both WAN interface models.  Fortunately, I'm on the=20
> other side of that fence, so I'm very pleased to see that I can refuse

> to support the Unnumbered Model and still comply with Best Current=20
> Practice.

That wasn't how I interpreted it. It said that you need to support both,
as some ISPs will go one way and some the other.



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Cc: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>, james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
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From: Ralph Droms <rdroms@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 07:57:11 -0700
References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <215BF73C-7C0D-4DAF-B399-7E812A8FB4A2@cisco.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBBA9B@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com>
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And there needs to be a way in which the CPE router can determine what  
mode it is supposed to operate in ... no matter whether it is  
connected directly to a WAN link (cable or DSL or IPoSN) or to a link  
inside the subscriber network.

- Ralph

On Mar 24, 2009, at 7:28 AM 3/24/09, Wes Beebee (wbeebee) wrote:

> CableLabs has decided in the eRouter specification (one particular
> instantiation of the CPE Router) that cable providers will never use  
> the
> unnumbered model.  Therefore, for the eRouter (which will only
> ever be used in a cable network), the unnumbered model is not  
> required.
>
> However, DSL/3GPP networks will likely use the unnumbered model.
>
> If a CPE Router can be used in both networks (like a standalone CPE
> Router), then you'll need to
> support both - because you can't be certain who will be using your
> router.
>
> Therefore, you'll need to support both unless you have linktype- 
> specific
> knowledge that allows you to rule one out.
>
> - Wes
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Fred Baker (fred)
> Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 5:47 PM
> To: james woodyatt
> Cc: IPv6 Operations
> Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
>
>
> On Mar 23, 2009, at 10:58 AM, james woodyatt wrote:
>
>> p2. If I were running an ISP, I'd be very suspicious of this
>> requirement on CPE router vendors that they MUST support "at least  
>> one
>
>> of two" and not both WAN interface models.  Fortunately, I'm on the
>> other side of that fence, so I'm very pleased to see that I can  
>> refuse
>
>> to support the Unnumbered Model and still comply with Best Current
>> Practice.
>
> That wasn't how I interpreted it. It said that you need to support  
> both,
> as some ISPs will go one way and some the other.
>
>



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Subject: Re: Load Balancing for Mobile IP
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On Mar 24, 2009, at 7:07 AM, luowanming wrote:

> So, what is the next step for this draft? Maybe it needs some  
> modifications according to comments? or move to mext WG? or jointly  
> worked by v6ops and Mobile IP?

In this context, I would expect v6ops to provide a problem statement,  
and mext to provide a solution. I think Mark summarized the problem  
statement, although Marcello may want it in more detail. In my  
opinion, the logical next step for a proposed solution is discussion  
in mext.


From wagner@inovx.com  Tue Mar 24 14:11:33 2009
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--=====003_Dragon136172067720_=====--



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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 21:34:14 -0400
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Thread-Topic: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <215BF73C-7C0D-4DAF-B399-7E812A8FB4A2@cisco.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBBA9B@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <2F30B075-D410-4EDD-A52F-AA9693D30DCA@cisco.com>
From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Ralph Droms (rdroms)" <rdroms@cisco.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>, "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>
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Ralph,

Note the our draft covers both an embedded CPE Rtr and a standalone CPE
Rtr.  If the CPE Rtr is embedded in a cable or DSL modem, or 3GPP legacy
data device, then the L2 of the modem or 3GPP device can easily signal
the upper layers of the Rtr to be configured for cable, DSL, or 3GPP WAN
interface setup.=20

For a standalone CPE Rtr, if one reads the draft, one will see that if
the CPE Rtr WAN interface sees an RA with M and O bits set when no PPP
link has been established prior to seeing this RA, it's a cable
deployment.  If an RA is seen after PPP negotiation, it's a DSL
deployment.  These are some ideas we have in mind thus far.  We can
certainly look into a flow chart for such provisioning in the standalone
rtr case.  Alternatively, for the standalone case, we may leave it to
the vendors to differentiate between their products as to how automatic
is their standalone CPE Rtr provisioning. =20

Hemant

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Ralph Droms (rdroms)
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 10:57 AM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Fred Baker (fred); james woodyatt
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

And there needs to be a way in which the CPE router can determine what =20
mode it is supposed to operate in ... no matter whether it is =20
connected directly to a WAN link (cable or DSL or IPoSN) or to a link =20
inside the subscriber network.

- Ralph




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Mar 24 21:59:38 2009
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Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2009 18:55:24 -1000 (HST)
From: Antonio Querubin <tony@lava.net>
To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
cc: "Ralph Droms (rdroms)" <rdroms@cisco.com>,  IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>,  james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On Tue, 24 Mar 2009, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:

> For a standalone CPE Rtr, if one reads the draft, one will see that if
> the CPE Rtr WAN interface sees an RA with M and O bits set when no PPP
> link has been established prior to seeing this RA, it's a cable
> deployment.

It's hard to figure out where in the draft the deployment type is actually 
specified.  Regardless, the above may not be a good assumption.  Our DSL 
deployment here for example currently uses SLAAC and RAs.  PD is currently 
done manually.  Eventually we want to use DHCPv6 for PD to the CPE router. 
We don't use PPP at all for either IPv4 or IPv6 on DSL.

> If an RA is seen after PPP negotiation, it's a DSL deployment.

So I wonder, what does the deployment 'type' have anything to do with the 
CPE Router behavior?

Antonio Querubin
whois:  AQ7-ARIN


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar 25 07:54:33 2009
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From: Maglione Roberta <roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it>
To: "'Hemant Singh (shemant)'" <shemant@cisco.com>, "Ralph Droms (rdroms)" <rdroms@cisco.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
CC: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>, james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>, Wojciech Dec <wdec@cisco.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 15:49:37 +0100
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Thread-Topic: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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Hello Hemant,

> For a standalone CPE Rtr, if one reads the draft, one will see that if
> the CPE Rtr WAN interface sees an RA with M and O bits set when no PPP
> link has been established prior to seeing this RA, it's a cable
> deployment.  If an RA is seen after PPP negotiation, it's a DSL
> deployment.

I'm not sure the criteria you mentioned is enough to identify a DSL CPE: in=
 DSL environment you can have either PPP or IP Sessions. In case of IP Sess=
ions if SLAAC is used to number the WAN link you will see RA with M and O b=
its set.

Best Regards,
Roberta


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Hemant Singh (shemant)
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:34 AM
To: Ralph Droms (rdroms); IPv6 Operations
Cc: Fred Baker (fred); james woodyatt
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

Ralph,

Note the our draft covers both an embedded CPE Rtr and a standalone CPE
Rtr.  If the CPE Rtr is embedded in a cable or DSL modem, or 3GPP legacy
data device, then the L2 of the modem or 3GPP device can easily signal
the upper layers of the Rtr to be configured for cable, DSL, or 3GPP WAN
interface setup.

For a standalone CPE Rtr, if one reads the draft, one will see that if
the CPE Rtr WAN interface sees an RA with M and O bits set when no PPP
link has been established prior to seeing this RA, it's a cable
deployment.  If an RA is seen after PPP negotiation, it's a DSL
deployment.  These are some ideas we have in mind thus far.  We can
certainly look into a flow chart for such provisioning in the standalone
rtr case.  Alternatively, for the standalone case, we may leave it to
the vendors to differentiate between their products as to how automatic
is their standalone CPE Rtr provisioning.

Hemant

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Ralph Droms (rdroms)
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 10:57 AM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Fred Baker (fred); james woodyatt
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

And there needs to be a way in which the CPE router can determine what
mode it is supposed to operate in ... no matter whether it is
connected directly to a WAN link (cable or DSL or IPoSN) or to a link
inside the subscriber network.

- Ralph




Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per=
sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall=
a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb=
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ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione=
, Grazie.

This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged =
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From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
To: "luowanming" <luowanming@cnnic.cn>
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Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-28--159207612
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Subject: Re: Load Balancing for Mobile IP
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 08:05:13 -0700
References: <A16EEC0B-822C-44BA-B875-0D9AA6BE7A00@cisco.com>, <49C7FB72.5020104@it.uc3m.es>, <0C2F04C3-1091-4C82-9F10-0F0675508A93@cisco.com>, <49C80401.1040809@it.uc3m.es>, <A9295D76-089E-49E3-BF91-573AA668D8DF@cisco.com>, <49C80678.6080508@it.uc3m.es>, <5801C1F3-B267-41EC-8A44-11C6A419851F@cisco.com>, <437894020.05666@cnnic.cn>, <437903642.25246@cnnic.cn>, <437914297.05677@cnnic.cn> <437944267.31274@cnnic.cn>
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I think the problem is well-enough described. You really need to talk =20=

with Marcello

On Mar 24, 2009, at 6:24 PM, luowanming wrote:

> Hi Fred,
>
> According to your opinion, do we need a new draft to provide a =20
> problem statement? If true, I want to work it together with Mark and =20=

> you.
>
> Regards,
> Wanming Luo
>
>
> =B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA Fred Baker
> =B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA 2009-03-25  01:04:57
> =CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA luowanming
> =B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA Mark Smith; IPv6 Operations; mext-chairs; =
mip4-chairs; Kurt =20
> Erik Lindqvist; RonBonica; mext-ads; draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam
> =D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA Re: Load Balancing for Mobile IP
> On Mar 24, 2009, at 7:07 AM, luowanming wrote:
> > So, what is the next step for this draft? Maybe it needs some
> > modifications according to comments? or move to mext WG? or jointly
> > worked by v6ops and Mobile IP?
> In this context, I would expect v6ops to provide a problem statement,
> and mext to provide a solution. I think Mark summarized the problem
> statement, although Marcello may want it in more detail. In my
> opinion, the logical next step for a proposed solution is discussion
> in mext.


--Apple-Mail-28--159207612
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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I think the problem is =
well-enough described. You&nbsp;really&nbsp;need to talk with =
Marcello<div><br><div><div>On Mar 24, 2009, at 6:24 PM, luowanming =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"color: rgb(0, 0, =
0); "><div style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: verdana; "><div><font =
face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#000080" =
size=3D"2">Hi&nbsp;Fred,</font></div><div><font face=3D"Verdana" =
color=3D"#000080" size=3D"2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font =
face=3D"Verdana" color=3D"#000080" size=3D"2">According to your opinion, =
do we need a new draft to provide a problem statement? If true, I want =
to work it together with Mark and you.</font></div><div><font =
color=3D"#000080"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font =
color=3D"#000080">Regards,</font></div><div><font =
color=3D"#000080">Wanming Luo</font></div><div><font =
color=3D"#000080"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font =
color=3D"#000080"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><div><font face=3D"Verdana" =
color=3D"#c0c0c0" size=3D"2"></font></div><font face=3D"Verdana" =
color=3D"#000080" size=3D"2"><hr></font></div><div><font face=3D"Verdana" =
size=3D"2"><strong>=B7=A2=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</strong><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Fred =
Baker</font></div><div><font face=3D"Verdana" =
size=3D"2"><strong>=B7=A2=CB=CD=CA=B1=BC=E4=A3=BA</strong><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>2009-03-25&nbsp; =
01:04:57</font></div><div><font face=3D"Verdana" =
size=3D"2"><strong>=CA=D5=BC=FE=C8=CB=A3=BA</strong><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>luowanming</font></div><div><=
font face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2"><strong>=B3=AD=CB=CD=A3=BA</strong><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Mark Smith; IPv6 =
Operations; mext-chairs; mip4-chairs; Kurt Erik Lindqvist; RonBonica; =
mext-ads; draft-luo-v6ops-6man-shim6-lbam</font></div><div><font =
face=3D"Verdana" size=3D"2"><strong>=D6=F7=CC=E2=A3=BA</strong><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: Load Balancing for =
Mobile IP</font></div><div><font face=3D"Verdana" =
size=3D"2"></font></div><div><font face=3D"Verdana" =
size=3D"2"><div></div><div>On&nbsp;Mar&nbsp;24,&nbsp;2009,&nbsp;at&nbsp;7:=
07&nbsp;AM,&nbsp;luowanming&nbsp;wrote:</div><div></div><div>&gt;&nbsp;So,=
&nbsp;what&nbsp;is&nbsp;the&nbsp;next&nbsp;step&nbsp;for&nbsp;this&nbsp;dr=
aft?&nbsp;Maybe&nbsp;it&nbsp;needs&nbsp;some&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div>&gt;&nb=
sp;modifications&nbsp;according&nbsp;to&nbsp;comments?&nbsp;or&nbsp;move&n=
bsp;to&nbsp;mext&nbsp;WG?&nbsp;or&nbsp;jointly&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div>&gt;&=
nbsp;worked&nbsp;by&nbsp;v6ops&nbsp;and&nbsp;Mobile&nbsp;IP?</div><div></d=
iv><div>In&nbsp;this&nbsp;context,&nbsp;I&nbsp;would&nbsp;expect&nbsp;v6op=
s&nbsp;to&nbsp;provide&nbsp;a&nbsp;problem&nbsp;statement,&nbsp;&nbsp;</di=
v><div>and&nbsp;mext&nbsp;to&nbsp;provide&nbsp;a&nbsp;solution.&nbsp;I&nbs=
p;think&nbsp;Mark&nbsp;summarized&nbsp;the&nbsp;problem&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><=
div>statement,&nbsp;although&nbsp;Marcello&nbsp;may&nbsp;want&nbsp;it&nbsp=
;in&nbsp;more&nbsp;detail.&nbsp;In&nbsp;my&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div>opinion,&=
nbsp;the&nbsp;logical&nbsp;next&nbsp;step&nbsp;for&nbsp;a&nbsp;proposed&nb=
sp;solution&nbsp;is&nbsp;discussion&nbsp;&nbsp;</div><div>in&nbsp;mext.</d=
iv></font></div></div></span></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>=

--Apple-Mail-28--159207612--


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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:08:12 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Antonio Querubin" <tony@lava.net>
Cc: "Ralph Droms (rdroms)" <rdroms@cisco.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>, "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>
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>It's hard to figure out where in the draft the deployment type is
actually=20
>specified.  Regardless, the above may not be a good assumption.  Our
DSL=20
>deployment here for example currently uses SLAAC and RAs.  PD is
currently=20
>done manually.  Eventually we want to use DHCPv6 for PD to the CPE
router.=20
>We don't use PPP at all for either IPv4 or IPv6 on DSL.

The intent of our document is not to specify deployment type - we define
a set of Conceptual Configuration Variables that a vendor may use to
implement the CPE Router.  For old networks that have not moved to
DHCPv6 PD, I am not surprised manual configuration has been used.  Even
with DHCPv6 PD, we will have to work out details to see how much
automatic configuration is possible.  Notice for IPv4 standalone home
routers, most routers still need a manual configuration to choose if the
home has a DSL or cable broadband access.  Also, in your DSL deployment,
do you have an embedded router in a DSL modem or is the router a
standalone router?  An embedded router has lot more automatic
configuration because the L2 of the device can communicate internally to
the embedded CPE Router.

Hemant


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From: Maglione Roberta <roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it>
To: Maglione Roberta <roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it>, "'Hemant Singh (shemant)'" <shemant@cisco.com>, "'Ralph Droms (rdroms)'" <rdroms@cisco.com>, 'IPv6 Operations' <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
CC: "'Fred Baker (fred)'" <fred@cisco.com>, 'james woodyatt' <jhw@apple.com>, 'Wojciech Dec' <wdec@cisco.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:13:29 +0100
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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>In case of IP Sessions if SLAAC is used to number the WAN link you will se=
e RA
> with M and O bits set

I missed a NOT; I meant if SLAAC is NOT used, sorry.

Roberta

-----Original Message-----
From: Maglione Roberta
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 3:50 PM
To: 'Hemant Singh (shemant)'; Ralph Droms (rdroms); IPv6 Operations
Cc: Fred Baker (fred); james woodyatt; Wojciech Dec
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

Hello Hemant,

> For a standalone CPE Rtr, if one reads the draft, one will see that if
> the CPE Rtr WAN interface sees an RA with M and O bits set when no PPP
> link has been established prior to seeing this RA, it's a cable
> deployment.  If an RA is seen after PPP negotiation, it's a DSL
> deployment.

I'm not sure the criteria you mentioned is enough to identify a DSL CPE: in=
 DSL environment you can have either PPP or IP Sessions. In case of IP Sess=
ions if SLAAC is used to number the WAN link you will see RA with M and O b=
its set.

Best Regards,
Roberta


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Hemant Singh (shemant)
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 2:34 AM
To: Ralph Droms (rdroms); IPv6 Operations
Cc: Fred Baker (fred); james woodyatt
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

Ralph,

Note the our draft covers both an embedded CPE Rtr and a standalone CPE
Rtr.  If the CPE Rtr is embedded in a cable or DSL modem, or 3GPP legacy
data device, then the L2 of the modem or 3GPP device can easily signal
the upper layers of the Rtr to be configured for cable, DSL, or 3GPP WAN
interface setup.

For a standalone CPE Rtr, if one reads the draft, one will see that if
the CPE Rtr WAN interface sees an RA with M and O bits set when no PPP
link has been established prior to seeing this RA, it's a cable
deployment.  If an RA is seen after PPP negotiation, it's a DSL
deployment.  These are some ideas we have in mind thus far.  We can
certainly look into a flow chart for such provisioning in the standalone
rtr case.  Alternatively, for the standalone case, we may leave it to
the vendors to differentiate between their products as to how automatic
is their standalone CPE Rtr provisioning.

Hemant

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Ralph Droms (rdroms)
Sent: Tuesday, March 24, 2009 10:57 AM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Fred Baker (fred); james woodyatt
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

And there needs to be a way in which the CPE router can determine what
mode it is supposed to operate in ... no matter whether it is
connected directly to a WAN link (cable or DSL or IPoSN) or to a link
inside the subscriber network.

- Ralph




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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:17:02 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Maglione Roberta" <roberta.maglione@telecomitalia.it>, "Ralph Droms (rdroms)" <rdroms@cisco.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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>I'm not sure the criteria you mentioned is enough to identify a DSL
CPE: in DSL environment you can have either PPP or IP Sessions. In case
of IP Sessions if SLAAC is used to number the WAN link you >will see RA
with M and O bits set.

I was referring specifically to a DSL deployment if the network uses
PPP.  Of course, for other flavors of deployment, one has to work out
details to see how much automation is possible with the CPE Router
configuration. Also, note, if a DSL deployment uses embedded router (DSL
modem combined with a CPE Router), then the device vendor has complete
flexibility for lot of automatic configuration because the L2 of the DSL
modem can communicate with the embedded CPE Router; likewise for an
embedded router in a cable modem.  See my earlier email where I said we
are focused more on Conceptual Configuration variables that may be left
to a vendor to use to automate whatever they would like to for
configuration.=20

Hemant



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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
To: IETF V6OPS <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, 74attendees@ietf.org
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Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
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[moving discussion into V6OPS from 74attendees]

On Mar 25, 2009, at 08:03, R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:
>
> RFC 3068 (An Anycast Prefix for 6to4 Relay Routers) does more harm =20
> than good. IMHO, it should be deprecated.

I would support that, providing first that 6RD is A) adopted as a =20
proposed standard, and B) comes to see more widespread deployment than =20=

6to4.  I also believe the latter is very likely to happen contingent =20
on the former, so I would vigorously support taking up 6RD as a =20
working group activity.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar 25 09:19:38 2009
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Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 09:18:40 -0700
References: <1237854355.16613.46.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <49C834AD.8050305@isoc.org> <1237859324.16613.63.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <6B2B4523-5EE6-4ECC-9AAC-A08AD0070787@icann.org> <1237862367.16613.86.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <49C91B22.1010901@isi.edu> <60E7F803-A547-4819-8482-70937CC96F1C@icann.org> <49C9217A.2030407@isi.edu> <A28B9B8B-AF8B-41FF-AC76-E7C0FCFBCA34@icann.org> <49C9BAF0.6090309@free.fr> <2241F597-F9CA-4841-B06C-E9B0AE98D44C@muada.com> <49CA47DF.9080307@free.fr> <8337B887-0196-4433-A11D-73DB09434476@apple.com>
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On Mar 25, 2009, at 9:05 AM, james woodyatt wrote:

> [moving discussion into V6OPS from 74attendees]
>
> On Mar 25, 2009, at 08:03, R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:
>>
>> RFC 3068 (An Anycast Prefix for 6to4 Relay Routers) does more harm =20=

>> than good. IMHO, it should be deprecated.
>
> I would support that, providing first that 6RD is A) adopted as a =20
> proposed standard, and B) comes to see more widespread deployment =20
> than 6to4.  I also believe the latter is very likely to happen =20
> contingent on the former, so I would vigorously support taking up =20
> 6RD as a working group activity.

6rd is a transition behavior. Please refer to =
http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/v6ops-charter.html=20
, and its two statements regarding working group effort on transition =20=

behaviors.

IPv6 Operations, in this context, can generate requirements. Our ADs =20
have told us to ask other working groups to build solutions when =20
solutions are needed. This has not stopped folks from asking for slots =20=

to discuss transition behaviors, and I have been lenient in allowing =20
that. That doesn't allow us to take it up as a working group focus.=


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Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
References: <1237854355.16613.46.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <49C834AD.8050305@isoc.org> <1237859324.16613.63.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <6B2B4523-5EE6-4ECC-9AAC-A08AD0070787@icann.org> <1237862367.16613.86.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <49C91B22.1010901@isi.edu> <60E7F803-A547-4819-8482-70937CC96F1C@icann.org> <49C9217A.2030407@isi.edu> <A28B9B8B-AF8B-41FF-AC76-E7C0FCFBCA34@icann.org> <49C9BAF0.6090309@free.fr> <2241F597-F9CA-4841-B06C-E9B0AE98D44C@muada.com> <49CA47DF.9080307@free.fr> <8337B887-0196-4433-A11D-73DB09434476@apple.com>
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james woodyatt  -  le (m/j/a) 3/25/09 9:05 AM:
> [moving discussion into V6OPS from 74attendees]
>
> On Mar 25, 2009, at 08:03, Rémi Després wrote:
>>
>> RFC 3068 (An Anycast Prefix for 6to4 Relay Routers) does more harm 
>> than good. IMHO, it should be deprecated.
>
> I would support that, providing first that 6RD is A) adopted as a 
> proposed standard, and B) comes to see more widespread deployment than 
> 6to4.  I also believe the latter is very likely to happen contingent 
> on the former, so I would vigorously support taking up 6RD as a 
> working group activity.
Excellent.

At 4:00 PM today at IETF registration, I will meet Benoit Lourdelet and 
Richard Johnson to propose a 6rd DHCP option.
(You are obviously welcome if you would like to join.)

RD



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Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
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On 2009-03-26 05:05, james woodyatt wrote:
> [moving discussion into V6OPS from 74attendees]

[and dropping 74attendees]

>=20
> On Mar 25, 2009, at 08:03, R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s wrote:
>>
>> RFC 3068 (An Anycast Prefix for 6to4 Relay Routers) does more harm
>> than good. IMHO, it should be deprecated.
>=20
> I would support that, providing first that 6RD is A) adopted as a
> proposed standard, and B) comes to see more widespread deployment than
> 6to4.  I also believe the latter is very likely to happen contingent on=

> the former, so I would vigorously support taking up 6RD as a working
> group activity.

Firstly, I think 6RD is worthy of consideration, although I'm not sure
it should be here rather than 6MAN or even individual submission to
an AD.

Secondly, I think it's quite premature to deprecate the 6to4 anycast
method. Of course, I would have preferred to see 6to4 deployed as
described in RFC3056 (i.e. relay addresses would be specific unicast
addresses) but we can't put the toothpaste back in the tube at this
point. In a few years 6to4 should fade away spontaneously. Meanwhile
we need to live with it, e.g. draft-nward-6to4-qualification.

    Brian



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Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
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Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 09:55:59 -0700
References: <1237854355.16613.46.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <49C834AD.8050305@isoc.org> <1237859324.16613.63.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <6B2B4523-5EE6-4ECC-9AAC-A08AD0070787@icann.org> <1237862367.16613.86.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <49C91B22.1010901@isi.edu> <60E7F803-A547-4819-8482-70937CC96F1C@icann.org> <49C9217A.2030407@isi.edu> <A28B9B8B-AF8B-41FF-AC76-E7C0FCFBCA34@icann.org> <49C9BAF0.6090309@free.fr> <2241F597-F9CA-4841-B06C-E9B0AE98D44C@muada.com> <49CA47DF.9080307@free.fr> <8337B887-0196-4433-A11D-73DB09434476@apple.com> <A1E04595-8178-4100-8BD4-0F6CAC15919E@cisco.com>
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On Mar 25, 2009, at 09:18, Fred Baker wrote:
> On Mar 25, 2009, at 9:05 AM, james woodyatt wrote:
>> On Mar 25, 2009, at 08:03, R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:
>>>
>>> RFC 3068 (An Anycast Prefix for 6to4 Relay Routers) does more harm =20=

>>> than good. IMHO, it should be deprecated.
>>
>> I would support that, providing first that 6RD is A) adopted as a =20
>> proposed standard, and B) comes to see more widespread deployment =20
>> than 6to4.  I also believe the latter is very likely to happen =20
>> contingent on the former, so I would vigorously support taking up =20
>> 6RD as a working group activity.
>
> 6rd is a transition behavior. Please refer to =
http://www.ietf.org/html.charters/v6ops-charter.html=20
> , and its two statements regarding working group effort on =20
> transition behaviors.
>
> IPv6 Operations, in this context, can generate requirements. Our ADs =20=

> have told us to ask other working groups to build solutions when =20
> solutions are needed. This has not stopped folks from asking for =20
> slots to discuss transition behaviors, and I have been lenient in =20
> allowing that. That doesn't allow us to take it up as a working =20
> group focus.

Ooops!  My mistake.  Since 6RD is a tunneling mechanism and not a =20
translating mechanism, I would expect this request should be directed =20=

to SOFTWIRE.  So, here I am in SOFTWIRE now.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




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Subject: Fwd: Liaison from the Broadband Forum
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As I mentioned in the meeting Monday, we re in receipt of a liaison (a  
letter) from the Broadband Forum. This relates to the work of several  
working groups, and in ours is primarily related to the CPE draft. The  
authors of that draft are in direct communication with the Forum and  
are addressing the issues raised. That said, any opinions on the  
questions would be good.

Begin forwarded message:

> From: "Young, Gavin" <Gavin.Young@cw.com>
> Date: March 22, 2009 1:49:09 PM PDT
> To: <fenner@fenron.com>, <christian.vogt@ericsson.com>, <fred.baker@cisco.com 
> >, <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>, <dromasca@avaya.com>,  
> <rbonica@juniper.net>, <rdroms@cisco.com>, <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, <townsley@cisco.com 
> >
> Cc: "David Allan" <dallan@nortel.com>, <david.j.thorne@bt.com>
> Subject: Liaison from the Broadband Forum
>
> Dear all,
>
> Please find attached a liaison from the Broadband Forum.
>
> Regards,
>
> Gavin Young
> Technical Committee Chair
>
>
>
> Gavin Young
> Chief Architect C&W Access
> Cable&Wireless
> Europe, Asia & US
> Direct Dial: +44 (0) 207 528 3597
> Mobile: +44 (0) 7748 937 007
> Email: gavin.young@cw.com
> www.cw.com
>
>
> This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless e- 
> mail security system - powered by MessageLabs. For more information  
> on a proactive managed e-mail security service, visit http://www.cw.com/uk/emailprotection/
>
> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may  
> also be subject to legal privilege. It is intended only for the  
> recipient(s) named above. If you are not named above as a recipient,  
> you must not read, copy, disclose, forward or otherwise use the  
> information contained in this email. If you have received this e- 
> mail in error, please notify the sender (whose contact details are  
> above) immediately by reply e-mail and delete the message and any  
> attachments without retaining any copies.
>
> Cable and Wireless plc
> Registered in England and Wales.Company Number 238525
> Registered office: 3rd Floor, 26 Red Lion Square, London WC1R 4HQ


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">As I mentioned in the meeting =
Monday, we re in receipt of a liaison (a letter) from the Broadband =
Forum. This relates to the work of several working groups, and in ours =
is primarily related to the CPE draft. The authors of that draft are in =
direct communication with the Forum and are addressing the issues =
raised. That said, any opinions on the questions would be =
good.<br><div><br><div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" color=3D"#000000" =
style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>From: =
</b></font><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px =
Helvetica">"Young, Gavin" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Gavin.Young@cw.com">Gavin.Young@cw.com</a>&gt;</font></div>=
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" color=3D"#000000" =
style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Date: =
</b></font><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px =
Helvetica">March 22, 2009 1:49:09 PM PDT</font></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" color=3D"#000000" =
style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>To: </b></font><font =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fenner@fenron.com">fenner@fenron.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christian.vogt@ericsson.com">christian.vogt@ericsson.com</a=
>&gt;, &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fred.baker@cisco.com">fred.baker@cisco.com</a>&gt;, =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kurtis@kurtis.pp.se">kurtis@kurtis.pp.se</a>&gt;, =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;, =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net">rbonica@juniper.net</a>&gt;, =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rdroms@cisco.com">rdroms@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net">jari.arkko@piuha.net</a>&gt;, =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:townsley@cisco.com">townsley@cisco.com</a>&gt;</font></div>=
<div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; =
margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" color=3D"#000000" =
style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: #000000"><b>Cc: </b></font><font =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica">"David =
Allan" &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dallan@nortel.com">dallan@nortel.com</a>&gt;,=
 &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:david.j.thorne@bt.com">david.j.thorne@bt.com</a>&gt;</font>=
</div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: =
0px; margin-left: 0px; "><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" =
color=3D"#000000" style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica; color: =
#000000"><b>Subject: </b></font><font face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3" =
style=3D"font: 12.0px Helvetica"><b>Liaison from the Broadband =
Forum</b></font></div><div style=3D"margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; =
margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; min-height: 14px; "><br></div> =
</div><o:smarttagtype =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"place"> <o:smarttagtype =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" =
name=3D"PersonName"> <!--[if !mso]> <style> =
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } </style> <![endif]--> <style> =
<!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face 	{font-family:"MS Mincho"; 	=
panose-1:2 2 6 9 4 2 5 8 3 4;} @font-face 	{font-family:"\@MS =
Mincho"; 	panose-1:0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;} /* Style Definitions */ =
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal 	{margin:0cm; 	=
margin-bottom:.0001pt; 	font-size:12.0pt; 	font-family:"Times New =
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{mso-style-type:personal-compose; 	font-family:Arial; 	=
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--> </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" =
spidmax=3D"1026" /> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> =
<o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit">  <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> =
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->  <div lang=3D"EN-US" link=3D"blue" =
vlink=3D"purple"> <div class=3D"Section1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font =
size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; =
font-family:Arial">Dear all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; =
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">Please find attached a =
liaison from the Broadband Forum.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; =
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; =
font-family:Arial">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; =
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><st1:personname w:st=3D"on"><font size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Gavin =
Young</span></font></st1:personname><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>=
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; font-family:Arial">Technical Committee =
Chair<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; =
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; =
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt; =
font-family:Arial"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p> <table =
class=3D"MsoNormalTable" border=3D"1" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" =
style=3D"border-collapse:collapse;border:none"> <tbody><tr =
style=3D"page-break-inside:avoid">  <td width=3D"283" valign=3D"top" =
style=3D"width:212.4pt;border:solid white 1.0pt;  padding:0cm 5.4pt 0cm =
5.4pt">  <h1 style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><st1:personname =
w:st=3D"on"><b><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Arial"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Gavin   =
Young</span></font></b></st1:personname><font size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Arial"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></h1=
><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span class=3D"emailstyle16"><font size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt">Chief  Architect C&amp;W =
Access</span></font><o:p></o:p></span></p>  <h3 =
style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><font size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Arial"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial">Cable&amp;Wireless =
</span></font></b><font face=3D"Arial"><span =
style=3D"font-family:Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></h3>  <h4 =
style=3D"margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt"><b><font size=3D"2" =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt"><ns0:place w:insauthor=3D"Bulldog" =
w:insdate=3D"2009-03-22T20:37:00Z" w:endinsauthor=3D"Bulldog" =
w:endinsdate=3D"2009-03-22T20:37:00Z"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Europe</st1:place></ns0:place>,  Asia &amp; =
US<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></h4><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
class=3D"emailstyle16"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D"font-size:8.0pt">Direct Dial: +44 (0) 207  528 =
3597<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
class=3D"emailstyle16"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3D"FR" style=3D"font-size:8.0pt">Mobile: +44 (0)  7748 937 =
007</span></font></span><font size=3D"1"><span lang=3D"FR" =
style=3D"font-size:  8.0pt"><br>  <span class=3D"emailstyle16">Email: <a =
href=3D"mailto:gavin.young@cw.com">gavin.young@cw.com</a><o:p></o:p></span=
></span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
class=3D"emailstyle16"><font size=3D"1" face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"font-size:8.0pt"><a =
href=3D"http://www.cw.com/"><font color=3D"black"><span =
style=3D"color:black">www.cw.com</span></font></a>  =
</span></font></span><b><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;  =
text-transform:uppercase;font-weight:bold"><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></=
p>  </td> </tr> </tbody></table><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font size=3D"3" =
face=3D"Times New Roman"><span style=3D"font-size: =
12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p> </div> <br> This e-mail has =
been scanned for viruses by the Cable &amp; Wireless e-mail security =
system - powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a proactive =
managed e-mail security service, visit <a =
href=3D"http://www.cw.com/uk/emailprotection/">http://www.cw.com/uk/emailp=
rotection/</a> <br> <br> The information contained in this e-mail is =
confidential and may also be subject to legal privilege. It is intended =
only for the recipient(s) named above. If you are not named above as a =
recipient, you must not read, copy, disclose, forward or otherwise use =
the information contained in this email. If you have received this =
e-mail in error, please notify the sender (whose contact details are =
above) immediately by reply e-mail and delete the message and any =
attachments without retaining any copies.<br> <br> Cable and Wireless =
plc <br> Registered in England and Wales.Company Number 238525 <br> =
Registered office: 3rd Floor, 26 Red Lion Square, London WC1R 4HQ<br> =
</div>  =
</o:smarttagtype></o:smarttagtype></blockquote></div></body></html>=

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar 25 10:16:23 2009
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From: "=?iso-8859-1?q?R=E9mi?= Denis-Courmont" <remi@remlab.net>
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To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 19:16:23 +0200
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On Wednesday 25 March 2009 18:05:36 james woodyatt wrote:
> [moving discussion into V6OPS from 74attendees]
>
> On Mar 25, 2009, at 08:03, R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:
> > RFC 3068 (An Anycast Prefix for 6to4 Relay Routers) does more harm
> > than good. IMHO, it should be deprecated.
>
> I would support that, providing first that 6RD is A) adopted as a
> proposed standard, and B) comes to see more widespread deployment than
> 6to4.  I also believe the latter is very likely to happen contingent
> on the former, so I would vigorously support taking up 6RD as a
> working group activity.

Anycast 6to4 has problems. I guess Nathan Ward will present some of those. =
6RD=20
solves many of the shortcomings of 6to4, _assuming_the_ISP_deploys_it_.

But lest we deprecate the entire scenario of automatic IPv6 setup without I=
SP=20
support, I fail to see how 6RD can replace anycast 6to4.

=2D-=20
R=E9mi Denis-Courmont


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From: "=?iso-8859-15?q?R=E9mi?= Denis-Courmont" <remi@remlab.net>
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To: =?iso-8859-15?q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= <remi.despres@free.fr>
Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
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On Wednesday 25 March 2009 18:18:08 R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:
> james woodyatt  -  le (m/j/a) 3/25/09 9:05 AM:
> > [moving discussion into V6OPS from 74attendees]
> >
> > On Mar 25, 2009, at 08:03, R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:
> >> RFC 3068 (An Anycast Prefix for 6to4 Relay Routers) does more harm
> >> than good. IMHO, it should be deprecated.
> >
> > I would support that, providing first that 6RD is A) adopted as a
> > proposed standard, and B) comes to see more widespread deployment than
> > 6to4.  I also believe the latter is very likely to happen contingent
> > on the former, so I would vigorously support taking up 6RD as a
> > working group activity.
>
> Excellent.
>
> At 4:00 PM today at IETF registration, I will meet Benoit Lourdelet and
> Richard Johnson to propose a 6rd DHCP option.
> (You are obviously welcome if you would like to join.)

A large subset of what I assume are potential target deployments for 6RD do=
es=20
NOT use DHCP. PPP(|oA|oE) IPCP comes to mind. Not to mention non-IETF=20
protocols such as PDP.


=2D-=20
R=E9mi Denis-Courmont


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar 25 10:28:43 2009
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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 10:28:25 -0700
References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <0DD150BF-77BC-4527-BD35-9202F94496E0@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8C2@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <95F8ED8E-261B-437C-8063-223D345C364B@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8F4@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <943C3A80-979F-4289-BA20-C17D20861111@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231557i618926bavff56f877c18eeee9@mail.gmail.com> <6161A3E1-DCD1-467F-9AD5-0A15821413A2@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com>
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On Mar 23, 2009, at 18:28, Ole Troan wrote:
>
> iff you wanted to make ND into a routing protocol using MSRs, I  
> believe you would have to change RFC4191. and possibly the main ND  
> spec, as routers doesn't listen to ND.

I only see a requirement in RFC 4294 (and draft-ietf-6man-node-req- 
bis-02) to send RS and process received RA at hosts.  There is no  
language that says routers MUST NOT send RS and process received RA,  
as draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router describes.

You have a point about RFC 4191 perhaps needing to be amended.  It  
describes MSR as a router-to-host protocol and not a router-to-node  
protocol.  This strikes me as an oversight that should be corrected.   
I see no technical reason that only hosts and not all nodes should be  
permitted to process MSR messages.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar 25 10:48:20 2009
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Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
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Rémi Denis-Courmont  -  le (m/j/a) 3/25/09 10:20 AM:
<blockquote cite="mid:200903251920.20267.remi@remlab.net" type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">On Wednesday 25 March 2009 18:18:08 Rémi Després wrote:
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">james woodyatt  -  le (m/j/a) 3/25/09 9:05 AM:
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">[moving discussion into V6OPS from 74attendees]

On Mar 25, 2009, at 08:03, Rémi Després wrote:
      </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">RFC 3068 (An Anycast Prefix for 6to4 Relay Routers) does more harm
than good. IMHO, it should be deprecated.
        </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">I would support that, providing first that 6RD is A) adopted as a
proposed standard, and B) comes to see more widespread deployment than
6to4.  I also believe the latter is very likely to happen contingent
on the former, so I would vigorously support taking up 6RD as a
working group activity.
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">Excellent.

At 4:00 PM today at IETF registration, I will meet Benoit Lourdelet and
Richard Johnson to propose a 6rd DHCP option.
(You are obviously welcome if you would like to join.)
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
A large subset of what I assume are potential target deployments for 6RD does 
NOT use DHCP. PPP(|oA|oE) IPCP comes to mind. Not to mention non-IETF 
protocols such as PDP.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
1. It's by mistake that I sent info on the planned meeting on the v6ops
list.<br>
Apologies to all for this.<br>
<br>
2. IMHO, the fact that other mechanisms than DHCP, PPP etc., may also
take advantage of a 6rd option is not a reason why progress on DHCP
should be slowed down, right?<br>
<br>
Which subset of the potential target one starts with can be considered
a minor question.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
RD<br>
<br>
 <br>
<br>
</body>
</html>


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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 14:05:44 -0400
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From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
To: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Where do we say that CPE Routers MUST NOT send RS's?

That was certainly not the intent of the draft...

- Wes=20

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of james woodyatt
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 1:28 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On Mar 23, 2009, at 18:28, Ole Troan wrote:
>
> iff you wanted to make ND into a routing protocol using MSRs, I=20
> believe you would have to change RFC4191. and possibly the main ND=20
> spec, as routers doesn't listen to ND.

I only see a requirement in RFC 4294 (and draft-ietf-6man-node-req-
bis-02) to send RS and process received RA at hosts.  There is no
language that says routers MUST NOT send RS and process received RA, as
draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router describes.

You have a point about RFC 4191 perhaps needing to be amended.  It
describes MSR as a router-to-host protocol and not a router-to-node =20
protocol.  This strikes me as an oversight that should be corrected.  =20
I see no technical reason that only hosts and not all nodes should be
permitted to process MSR messages.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering





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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 11:08:58 -0700
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On Mar 25, 2009, at 11:05, Wes Beebee (wbeebee) wrote:
>
> Where do we say that CPE Routers MUST NOT send RS's?
> That was certainly not the intent of the draft...

I see how my comment used ambiguous language.  I meant to say that A)  
I do not see how RFC 4294 and draft-ietf-6man-node-req-bis-02 prohibit  
CPE routers from sending RSs and processing RAs, and B) I *do* see  
where draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 calls for CPE routers to do  
exactly that.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar 25 11:11:52 2009
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Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 08:10:41 -1000 (HST)
From: Antonio Querubin <tony@lava.net>
To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
cc: "Ralph Droms (rdroms)" <rdroms@cisco.com>,  IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>,  james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On Wed, 25 Mar 2009, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:

> automatic configuration is possible.  Notice for IPv4 standalone home
> routers, most routers still need a manual configuration to choose if the
> home has a DSL or cable broadband access.

Here, both types of access is usually through a modem, not a router. The 
modem provides the customer with ethernet.  If the customer chooses to 
install a standalone router chained off of the modem, there's really no 
additional choice to be made.  The only choice is whether to go with a 
cable or DSL access provider.  Once that choice is made, the modem type is 
already determined.

> Also, in your DSL deployment, do you have an embedded router in a DSL 
> modem or is the router a standalone router?  An embedded router has lot 
> more automatic configuration because the L2 of the device can 
> communicate internally to the embedded CPE Router.

That depends on the customer.  In the embedded case, conceptually it's 
simplest to think of the device as having a virtual ethernet connection 
between built-in modem and built-in router (when the customer chooses to 
use an embedded router device they normally lose the option to hang 
additional devices off the WAN link).  I'm not aware of any consumer 
embedded-router/modem being used here where the router functionality 
behaves significantly differently than that of a standalone-router. The 
communication between the L2 device and the router really boils down to 
whether the WAN connection is up or down and that's really independent of 
whether an embedded router or standalone router is being used.

Antonio Querubin
whois:  AQ7-ARIN


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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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>> iff you wanted to make ND into a routing protocol using MSRs, I believe
>> you would have to change RFC4191. and possibly the main ND spec, as rout=
ers
>> doesn't listen to ND.
>
> I only see a requirement in RFC 4294 (and draft-ietf-6man-node-req-bis-02=
)
> to send RS and process received RA at hosts. =A0There is no language that=
 says
> routers MUST NOT send RS and process received RA, as
> draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router describes.

routers don't send RSs hosts do. but I agree to the extent that the
host/router property is per-interface. and the distinction becoming
more blurred by the day in any case.

> You have a point about RFC 4191 perhaps needing to be amended. =A0It desc=
ribes
> MSR as a router-to-host protocol and not a router-to-node protocol. =A0Th=
is
> strikes me as an oversight that should be corrected. =A0I see no technica=
l
> reason that only hosts and not all nodes should be permitted to process M=
SR
> messages.

this was something which was touched upon by Ralph's presentation in
the rtgarea meeting. I think this needs more consideration and include
a wider audience; should we make DHCP and ND into routing protocols?

btw, from RFC4861, section 6.2.7:
"...Any other action on reception of Router Advertisement messages by a
   router is beyond the scope of this document."

Ole


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CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
References: <1237854355.16613.46.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <49CA47DF.9080307@free.fr> <8337B887-0196-4433-A11D-73DB09434476@apple.com> <200903251916.23679.remi@remlab.net>
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Rémi Denis-Courmont  -  le (m/j/a) 3/25/09 10:16 AM:
<blockquote cite="mid:200903251916.23679.remi@remlab.net" type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">On Wednesday 25 March 2009 18:05:36 james woodyatt wrote:
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">[moving discussion into V6OPS from 74attendees]

On Mar 25, 2009, at 08:03, Rémi Després wrote:
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">RFC 3068 (An Anycast Prefix for 6to4 Relay Routers) does more harm
than good. IMHO, it should be deprecated.
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">I would support that, providing first that 6RD is A) adopted as a
proposed standard, and B) comes to see more widespread deployment than
6to4.  I also believe the latter is very likely to happen contingent
on the former, so I would vigorously support taking up 6RD as a
working group activity.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Anycast 6to4 has problems. I guess Nathan Ward will present some of those. 6RD 
solves many of the shortcomings of 6to4, _assuming_the_ISP_deploys_it_.

But lest we deprecate the entire scenario of automatic IPv6 setup without ISP 
support, I fail to see how 6RD can replace anycast 6to4.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
Thanks for your comment.<br>
<br>
Using 6to4 between two 6to4 user sites is NOT a problem, and indeed
MUST remain possible.<br>
But using a source 6to4 address to reach a non-6to4 destination IS a
problem, and IMHO MUST be deprecated ASAP.<br>
<br>
6to4 to non-6to4 being the only reason for 6to4 relay routers, and for
the 6to4 anycast address to reach them, they are what needs being
deprecated.<br>
<br>
I guess RFC 3484 should also be updated to say that a 6to4 address MAY
be used if both source and destination are 6to4, but ONLY in this case.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
RD<br>
 <br>
<br>
</body>
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 15:46:27 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
Cc: "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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James,

I already replied to your RS question on March 23.  Ole has also kindly
jumped in later too and gave you an explanation in this regard. Here is
what I said on 03/23.  From this text it should be crystal clear why a
router's network interface is legal to send an RS and also by sending
the RS, the CPE Rtr's network interface is not non-compliant to any IPv6
node req document.

"When a network interface on any router inits itself and performs any
"address acquisition", the network interface of the router is acting as
a host.  According to RFC 4861, section 4.1, the text says that hosts
send RS to solicit an RA quickly."

The only recent item to debate from you is now RFC 4191.  Again, on this
front Ole articulated it very nicely and I agree with him.  If one has
routing, why do we want RFC 4191 in the CPE Rtr document? I have also
asked in the past to please give us one compelling reason to make RFC
4191 get into the CPE Rtr document.  What particular option from RFC
4191 do you want to use by the CPE Rtr?

Hemant


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Subject: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN (was: RE: Agenda)
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Sheng Jiang" <shengjiang@huawei.com>, "Fred Baker" <fred@cisco.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Had intended to say this at the mike, but I would like
to see this work taken as a wg item. Reason is that I
see a continued need for IPv4 clients to access IPv4
and IPv6 servers. Can we have this as a wg item?

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:29 PM
> To: 'Fred Baker'; 'IPv6 Operations'
> Cc: 'Brian E Carpenter'
> Subject: RE: Agenda
>=20
> Hi, Fred,
>=20
> Could you add Brian Carpenter as co-author and presenter for the
following agenda
> item? Due to a known bug of auto-submission tool, Brian's name does
not recognized.
>=20
> An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition
> Sheng Jiang, Dayong Guo, Brian Carpenter
>=20
> Many thanks and best regards,
>=20
> Sheng
>=20
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> >[mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
> >Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:55 AM
> >To: IPv6 Operations
> >Subject: Agenda
> >
> >So I am finally posting the agenda for our meetings next week.
> >I'll blame the delay on the late posting of drafts. Or
> >something like that :-)
> >
> >     http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09mar/agenda/v6ops.html
> >
> >I need all of the presentations that people plan to use,
> >whether in PDF or PPT format, by Sunday night so I can post
> >them, please. We will run them from my laptop.
> >
> >Presenters, some of you have told me you only need ten
> >minutes, and I'll be hoping you do that. I asked for two
> >2-hour sessions and got one 2.5 hour and one 1 hour session.
> >There is at least one discussion that I expect to warrant some
> >extra time, and what we have is about 20 minutes each.
> >
>=20



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From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
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As I noted a few minutes ago regarding 6rd, and as we discussed when  
you wanted ISATAP picked up as a working group item, the charter  
precludes transition mechanisms as working group topics. You need to  
discuss this with an AD or an appropriate working group.

On Mar 25, 2009, at 1:06 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:

> Had intended to say this at the mike, but I would like
> to see this work taken as a wg item. Reason is that I
> see a continued need for IPv4 clients to access IPv4
> and IPv6 servers. Can we have this as a wg item?
>
> Fred
> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:29 PM
>> To: 'Fred Baker'; 'IPv6 Operations'
>> Cc: 'Brian E Carpenter'
>> Subject: RE: Agenda
>>
>> Hi, Fred,
>>
>> Could you add Brian Carpenter as co-author and presenter for the
> following agenda
>> item? Due to a known bug of auto-submission tool, Brian's name does
> not recognized.
>>
>> An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition
>> Sheng Jiang, Dayong Guo, Brian Carpenter
>>
>> Many thanks and best regards,
>>
>> Sheng
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
>>> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:55 AM
>>> To: IPv6 Operations
>>> Subject: Agenda
>>>
>>> So I am finally posting the agenda for our meetings next week.
>>> I'll blame the delay on the late posting of drafts. Or
>>> something like that :-)
>>>
>>>    http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09mar/agenda/v6ops.html
>>>
>>> I need all of the presentations that people plan to use,
>>> whether in PDF or PPT format, by Sunday night so I can post
>>> them, please. We will run them from my laptop.
>>>
>>> Presenters, some of you have told me you only need ten
>>> minutes, and I'll be hoping you do that. I asked for two
>>> 2-hour sessions and got one 2.5 hour and one 1 hour session.
>>> There is at least one discussion that I expect to warrant some
>>> extra time, and what we have is about 20 minutes each.
>>>
>>
>



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Subject: RE: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN (was: RE: Agenda)
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 13:36:12 -0700
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References: <9D55B7AB-196E-4D31-9C26-66FC7E8447FE@cisco.com> <001901c9a832$07c4d0e0$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105BB4F70@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <82AEA9EB-9437-406F-BC3A-5F0895BE6FD6@cisco.com>
From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Fred Baker" <fred@cisco.com>
Cc: "Sheng Jiang" <shengjiang@huawei.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Fred,

Maybe I am confused; the chairs asked a question after
the draft presentation, and I missed the boat on raising
my hand. What was the question that was asked - and is
it too late to still raise my hand?

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 1:32 PM
> To: Templin, Fred L
> Cc: Sheng Jiang; IPv6 Operations; Brian E Carpenter
> Subject: Re: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN (was: RE: Agenda)
>=20
> As I noted a few minutes ago regarding 6rd, and as we discussed when
> you wanted ISATAP picked up as a working group item, the charter
> precludes transition mechanisms as working group topics. You need to
> discuss this with an AD or an appropriate working group.
>=20
> On Mar 25, 2009, at 1:06 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
>=20
> > Had intended to say this at the mike, but I would like
> > to see this work taken as a wg item. Reason is that I
> > see a continued need for IPv4 clients to access IPv4
> > and IPv6 servers. Can we have this as a wg item?
> >
> > Fred
> > fred.l.templin@boeing.com
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com]
> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:29 PM
> >> To: 'Fred Baker'; 'IPv6 Operations'
> >> Cc: 'Brian E Carpenter'
> >> Subject: RE: Agenda
> >>
> >> Hi, Fred,
> >>
> >> Could you add Brian Carpenter as co-author and presenter for the
> > following agenda
> >> item? Due to a known bug of auto-submission tool, Brian's name does
> > not recognized.
> >>
> >> An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition
> >> Sheng Jiang, Dayong Guo, Brian Carpenter
> >>
> >> Many thanks and best regards,
> >>
> >> Sheng
> >>
> >>> -----Original Message-----
> >>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> >>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
> >>> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:55 AM
> >>> To: IPv6 Operations
> >>> Subject: Agenda
> >>>
> >>> So I am finally posting the agenda for our meetings next week.
> >>> I'll blame the delay on the late posting of drafts. Or
> >>> something like that :-)
> >>>
> >>>    http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09mar/agenda/v6ops.html
> >>>
> >>> I need all of the presentations that people plan to use,
> >>> whether in PDF or PPT format, by Sunday night so I can post
> >>> them, please. We will run them from my laptop.
> >>>
> >>> Presenters, some of you have told me you only need ten
> >>> minutes, and I'll be hoping you do that. I asked for two
> >>> 2-hour sessions and got one 2.5 hour and one 1 hour session.
> >>> There is at least one discussion that I expect to warrant some
> >>> extra time, and what we have is about 20 minutes each.
> >>>
> >>
> >



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar 25 13:42:08 2009
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From: "=?iso-8859-15?q?R=E9mi?= Denis-Courmont" <remi@remlab.net>
Organization: Remlab.net
To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
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On Wednesday 25 March 2009 21:25:15 R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:
> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
=2E..
> Using 6to4 between two 6to4 user sites is NOT a problem, and indeed
> MUST remain possible.<br>
> But using a source 6to4 address to reach a non-6to4 destination IS a
> problem, and IMHO MUST be deprecated ASAP.<br>

I am using Anycast 6to4 at home and it worksforme(tm). Who is going to be m=
y=20
6RD endpoint when 6to4 is deprecated? My ISP does not provide 6RD. I don't=
=20
know if ny DOCSIS modem is compatible with 6RD, and I know for sure that my=
=20
CPE does not implement 6RD.

6RD is NOT an alternative to 6to4. 6RD is an alternative to native IPv6 for=
=20
access networks. To put it another way, 6to4 is deployed by end sites, wher=
eas =20
6RD is deployed by access providers.

Also IMHO, splitting the IPv6 Internet is a worse idea than keeping 6to4.

> <br>
> 6to4 to non-6to4 being the only reason for 6to4 relay routers, and for
> the 6to4 anycast address to reach them, they are what needs being
> deprecated.<br>
> <br>
> I guess RFC 3484 should also be updated to say that a 6to4 address MAY
> be used if both source and destination are 6to4, but ONLY in this case.<b=
r>

I do not believe we can update the millions of RFC3484-capable nodes in the=
=20
wold, in the expected time frame for 6to4.

=2D-=20
R=E9mi Denis-Courmont


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Subject: 6to4 to non-6to4
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On 2009-03-26 08:25, R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s wrote:
> R=C3=A9mi Denis-Courmont  -  le (m/j/a) 3/25/09 10:16 AM:
>> On Wednesday 25 March 2009 18:05:36 james woodyatt wrote:
>>  =20
>>> [moving discussion into V6OPS from 74attendees]
>>>
>>> On Mar 25, 2009, at 08:03, R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s wrote:
>>>    =20
>>>> RFC 3068 (An Anycast Prefix for 6to4 Relay Routers) does more harm
>>>> than good. IMHO, it should be deprecated.
>>>>      =20
>>> I would support that, providing first that 6RD is A) adopted as a
>>> proposed standard, and B) comes to see more widespread deployment tha=
n
>>> 6to4.  I also believe the latter is very likely to happen contingent
>>> on the former, so I would vigorously support taking up 6RD as a
>>> working group activity.
>>>    =20
>>
>> Anycast 6to4 has problems. I guess Nathan Ward will present some of th=
ose. 6RD=20
>> solves many of the shortcomings of 6to4, _assuming_the_ISP_deploys_it_=
=2E
>>
>> But lest we deprecate the entire scenario of automatic IPv6 setup with=
out ISP=20
>> support, I fail to see how 6RD can replace anycast 6to4.
>>  =20
> Thanks for your comment.
>=20
> Using 6to4 between two 6to4 user sites is NOT a problem, and indeed MUS=
T remain=20
> possible.
> But using a source 6to4 address to reach a non-6to4 destination IS a pr=
oblem,=20
> and IMHO MUST be deprecated ASAP.

I'm sorry but this makes no sense. 6to4 users (they exist) need to
reach the IPv6 Internet, and a 6to4 relay is the only way to do that,
so they have to exist too. Otherwise we are creating IPv6 islands, which
is a bad idea for encouraging adoption.

The fact that the anycast technique leads to black holes is well known;
I've been a victim of it myself. I'd be much happier if 6to4 had been
deployed as described in RFC3056, but we have to deal with reality.
Once again, see draft-nward-6to4-qualification for one way to
do that.

>=20
> 6to4 to non-6to4 being the only reason for 6to4 relay routers, and for =
the 6to4=20
> anycast address to reach them, they are what needs being deprecated.
>=20
> I guess RFC 3484 should also be updated to say that a 6to4 address MAY =
be used=20
> if both source and destination are 6to4, but ONLY in this case.

Absolutely not. That would make the black hole problem global instead of
localised. 6to4 was given its own /8 global prefix so that longest match
would do the right thing, within the scope of the 3484 rules. (Yes,
3484 was published after 3056, but there was coordination.)

    Brian



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar 25 14:30:48 2009
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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:30:16 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
CC: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>, Sheng Jiang <shengjiang@huawei.com>,  IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN
References: <9D55B7AB-196E-4D31-9C26-66FC7E8447FE@cisco.com> <001901c9a832$07c4d0e0$db0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105BB4F70@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <82AEA9EB-9437-406F-BC3A-5F0895BE6FD6@cisco.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105BB4FCC@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com>
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There'll be another draft (so tech comments will be most
welcome). Before we ship that draft, we'l check with the
various ADs and WG chairs whether we should direct it
at a particular WG, or as an individual submission.

I would observe that this is actually a usage scenario;
we were fairly careful not to invent any new mechanisms
as such. The v6ops charter does include:
"4. Publish Informational or BCP RFCs that identify and
analyze solutions for deploying IPv6 within common network
environments, such as ISP Networks,..."

    Brian

On 2009-03-26 09:36, Templin, Fred L wrote:
> Fred,
> 
> Maybe I am confused; the chairs asked a question after
> the draft presentation, and I missed the boat on raising
> my hand. What was the question that was asked - and is
> it too late to still raise my hand?
> 
> Fred
> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 1:32 PM
>> To: Templin, Fred L
>> Cc: Sheng Jiang; IPv6 Operations; Brian E Carpenter
>> Subject: Re: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN (was: RE: Agenda)
>>
>> As I noted a few minutes ago regarding 6rd, and as we discussed when
>> you wanted ISATAP picked up as a working group item, the charter
>> precludes transition mechanisms as working group topics. You need to
>> discuss this with an AD or an appropriate working group.
>>
>> On Mar 25, 2009, at 1:06 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
>>
>>> Had intended to say this at the mike, but I would like
>>> to see this work taken as a wg item. Reason is that I
>>> see a continued need for IPv4 clients to access IPv4
>>> and IPv6 servers. Can we have this as a wg item?
>>>
>>> Fred
>>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:29 PM
>>>> To: 'Fred Baker'; 'IPv6 Operations'
>>>> Cc: 'Brian E Carpenter'
>>>> Subject: RE: Agenda
>>>>
>>>> Hi, Fred,
>>>>
>>>> Could you add Brian Carpenter as co-author and presenter for the
>>> following agenda
>>>> item? Due to a known bug of auto-submission tool, Brian's name does
>>> not recognized.
>>>> An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition
>>>> Sheng Jiang, Dayong Guo, Brian Carpenter
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks and best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Sheng
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>>>>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:55 AM
>>>>> To: IPv6 Operations
>>>>> Subject: Agenda
>>>>>
>>>>> So I am finally posting the agenda for our meetings next week.
>>>>> I'll blame the delay on the late posting of drafts. Or
>>>>> something like that :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>    http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09mar/agenda/v6ops.html
>>>>>
>>>>> I need all of the presentations that people plan to use,
>>>>> whether in PDF or PPT format, by Sunday night so I can post
>>>>> them, please. We will run them from my laptop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Presenters, some of you have told me you only need ten
>>>>> minutes, and I'll be hoping you do that. I asked for two
>>>>> 2-hour sessions and got one 2.5 hour and one 1 hour session.
>>>>> There is at least one discussion that I expect to warrant some
>>>>> extra time, and what we have is about 20 minutes each.
>>>>>
> 
> 


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar 25 15:05:34 2009
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CC: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont?= <remi@remlab.net>,  IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: 6to4 to non-6to4
References: <1237854355.16613.46.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <49CA47DF.9080307@free.fr> <8337B887-0196-4433-A11D-73DB09434476@apple.com> <200903251916.23679.remi@remlab.net> <49CA851B.2070005@free.fr> <49CAA0D0.4090604@gmail.com>
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Brian E Carpenter  -  le (m/j/a) 3/25/09 2:23 PM:
<blockquote cite="mid:49CAA0D0.4090604@gmail.com" type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">On 2009-03-26 08:25, Rémi Després wrote:
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Rémi Denis-Courmont  -  le (m/j/a) 3/25/09 10:16 AM:
    </pre>
    <blockquote type="cite">
      <pre wrap="">On Wednesday 25 March 2009 18:05:36 james woodyatt wrote:
  
      </pre>
      <blockquote type="cite">
        <pre wrap="">[moving discussion into V6OPS from 74attendees]

On Mar 25, 2009, at 08:03, Rémi Després wrote:
    
        </pre>
        <blockquote type="cite">
          <pre wrap="">RFC 3068 (An Anycast Prefix for 6to4 Relay Routers) does more harm
than good. IMHO, it should be deprecated.
      
          </pre>
        </blockquote>
        <pre wrap="">I would support that, providing first that 6RD is A) adopted as a
proposed standard, and B) comes to see more widespread deployment than
6to4.  I also believe the latter is very likely to happen contingent
on the former, so I would vigorously support taking up 6RD as a
working group activity.
    
        </pre>
      </blockquote>
      <pre wrap="">Anycast 6to4 has problems. I guess Nathan Ward will present some of those. 6RD 
solves many of the shortcomings of 6to4, _assuming_the_ISP_deploys_it_.

But lest we deprecate the entire scenario of automatic IPv6 setup without ISP 
support, I fail to see how 6RD can replace anycast 6to4.
  
      </pre>
    </blockquote>
    <pre wrap="">Thanks for your comment.

Using 6to4 between two 6to4 user sites is NOT a problem, and indeed MUST remain 
possible.
But using a source 6to4 address to reach a non-6to4 destination IS a problem, 
and IMHO MUST be deprecated ASAP.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
I'm sorry but this makes no sense. 6to4 users (they exist) need to
reach the IPv6 Internet, and a 6to4 relay is the only way to do that,
so they have to exist too. Otherwise we are creating IPv6 islands, which
is a bad idea for encouraging adoption.

The fact that the anycast technique leads to black holes is well known;
I've been a victim of it myself. I'd be much happier if 6to4 had been
deployed as described in RFC3056, but we have to deal with reality.
Once again, see draft-nward-6to4-qualification for one way to
do that.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
Agreed (a partial backtrack): if a 6to4 host first checks that it has a
return path from a native v6 site, then it may proceed rather than
giving up v6 and falling back to v4.<br>
<br>
Note however that, for still some time, falling back to v4 when the
quality of v6 paths is not guaranteed is not a bad choice.<br>
Note also that Nathan's proposal checks only connectivity. Uncertainty
on QoS remains, due to the lack of control on which 6to4 relay routers
are used in return paths. <br>
<br>
<blockquote cite="mid:49CAA0D0.4090604@gmail.com" type="cite">
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">6to4 to non-6to4 being the only reason for 6to4 relay routers, and for the 6to4 
anycast address to reach them, they are what needs being deprecated.

I guess RFC 3484 should also be updated to say that a 6to4 address MAY be used 
if both source and destination are 6to4, but ONLY in this case.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
Absolutely not. That would make the black hole problem global instead of
localised. </pre>
</blockquote>
In my understanding, backing up to v4 when v6 is not fully reliable
doesn't create  black holes. It prevents them. <br>
At least where 6to4 qualification is not available yet (and substantial
host modifications don't come overnight), avoiding 6to4 to non-6to4
remains IMHO a good way to avoid people to be disappointed with IPv6
and complain.<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
RD<br>
</body>
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Subject: Re: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN (was: RE: Agenda)
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I asked Gunter to send me his notes. Per them, I asked the working  
group what should be done with the draft, and found that few had read  
it. So I encouraged people to read it and comment to the list.

If it is adopted in an IETF working group, it will have to be in one  
that is chartered to work on transition mechanisms; note that behave  
and softwires are already working on these, and 6rd is being taken to  
softwires as an alternative tunneling approach. After we have comments  
on this draft, we will be an in better position to discuss its next  
steps.

On Mar 25, 2009, at 1:36 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:

> Fred,
>
> Maybe I am confused; the chairs asked a question after
> the draft presentation, and I missed the boat on raising
> my hand. What was the question that was asked - and is
> it too late to still raise my hand?
>
> Fred
> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Fred Baker [mailto:fred@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 1:32 PM
>> To: Templin, Fred L
>> Cc: Sheng Jiang; IPv6 Operations; Brian E Carpenter
>> Subject: Re: draft-jiang-incremental-CGN (was: RE: Agenda)
>>
>> As I noted a few minutes ago regarding 6rd, and as we discussed when
>> you wanted ISATAP picked up as a working group item, the charter
>> precludes transition mechanisms as working group topics. You need to
>> discuss this with an AD or an appropriate working group.
>>
>> On Mar 25, 2009, at 1:06 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote:
>>
>>> Had intended to say this at the mike, but I would like
>>> to see this work taken as a wg item. Reason is that I
>>> see a continued need for IPv4 clients to access IPv4
>>> and IPv6 servers. Can we have this as a wg item?
>>>
>>> Fred
>>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com]
>>>> Sent: Wednesday, March 18, 2009 6:29 PM
>>>> To: 'Fred Baker'; 'IPv6 Operations'
>>>> Cc: 'Brian E Carpenter'
>>>> Subject: RE: Agenda
>>>>
>>>> Hi, Fred,
>>>>
>>>> Could you add Brian Carpenter as co-author and presenter for the
>>> following agenda
>>>> item? Due to a known bug of auto-submission tool, Brian's name does
>>> not recognized.
>>>>
>>>> An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) for IPv6 Transition
>>>> Sheng Jiang, Dayong Guo, Brian Carpenter
>>>>
>>>> Many thanks and best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Sheng
>>>>
>>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>>>>> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
>>>>> Sent: Thursday, March 19, 2009 7:55 AM
>>>>> To: IPv6 Operations
>>>>> Subject: Agenda
>>>>>
>>>>> So I am finally posting the agenda for our meetings next week.
>>>>> I'll blame the delay on the late posting of drafts. Or
>>>>> something like that :-)
>>>>>
>>>>>   http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/09mar/agenda/v6ops.html
>>>>>
>>>>> I need all of the presentations that people plan to use,
>>>>> whether in PDF or PPT format, by Sunday night so I can post
>>>>> them, please. We will run them from my laptop.
>>>>>
>>>>> Presenters, some of you have told me you only need ten
>>>>> minutes, and I'll be hoping you do that. I asked for two
>>>>> 2-hour sessions and got one 2.5 hour and one 1 hour session.
>>>>> There is at least one discussion that I expect to warrant some
>>>>> extra time, and what we have is about 20 minutes each.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>



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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : IPv6 CPE Router Recommendations
	Author(s)       : H. Singh, W. Beebee
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-00.txt
	Pages           : 22
	Date            : 2009-03-25

This document recommends IPv6 behavior for Customer Premises
Equipment (CPE) routers in Internet-enabled homes and small offices.
The CPE Router may be a standalone device.  The CPE Router may also
be embedded in a device such as a cable modem, DSL modem, cellular
phone, etc.  This document describes the router portion of such a
device.  The purpose behind this document is to provide minimal
functionality for interoperability and create consistency in the
customer experience and satisfy customer expectations for the device.
Further, the document also provide some guidance for implementers to
expedite availability of IPv6 CPE router products in the marketplace.
It is expected that standards bodies other than the IETF developing
standards for specific products in this area (e.g.  CableLabs
eRouter, Broadband Forum, Home Gateway Initiative, etc.) may
reference this work for basic functionality and provide value-added
or linktype-specific customizations and enhancements which are beyond
the scope of this document.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar 25 15:51:22 2009
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From: Arifumi Matsumoto <arifumi@nttv6.net>
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Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 07:50:52 +0900
References: <1237854355.16613.46.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <200903251916.23679.remi@remlab.net> <49CA851B.2070005@free.fr> <200903252241.57649.remi@remlab.net>
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> I am using Anycast 6to4 at home and it worksforme(tm). Who is going  
> to be my
> 6RD endpoint when 6to4 is deprecated? My ISP does not provide 6RD. I  
> don't
> know if ny DOCSIS modem is compatible with 6RD, and I know for sure  
> that my
> CPE does not implement 6RD.
>
> 6RD is NOT an alternative to 6to4. 6RD is an alternative to native  
> IPv6 for
> access networks. To put it another way, 6to4 is deployed by end  
> sites, whereas
> 6RD is deployed by access providers.
>
> Also IMHO, splitting the IPv6 Internet is a worse idea than keeping  
> 6to4.

Ditto.

My 6to4 router at home works fine for me and my family.
However, the problem is that 6to4 is preferred than IPv4
and Japan does not have 6to4 relay router until very recently,
so sometimes my packets have to go back and force pacific
ocean to connect an dual-stack server in my office.

The problem of mine can be solved by switching preferences
of ipv4 and 6to4. And some people that advocate deprecating
6to4 here seem to be able to live with this trivial change.

Of course, you may say that IPv6 address, including 6to4,
should be preferred for the sake of NAT unfriendly
applications, but it is not worse than losing 6to4.



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar 25 16:00:18 2009
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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 11:59:57 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: 6to4 to non-6to4
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R=C3=A9mis, and all,

Just to summarize for the group a coffee conversation
with R=C3=A9mi D and Keith Moore, one possible way forward
is a new document describing best (and worst) practice for
6to4 relay deployment, and associated 6to4 host behaviour.

    Brian

On 2009-03-26 11:01, R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s wrote:
> Brian E Carpenter  -  le (m/j/a) 3/25/09 2:23 PM:
>> On 2009-03-26 08:25, R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s wrote:
>>  =20
>>> R=C3=A9mi Denis-Courmont  -  le (m/j/a) 3/25/09 10:16 AM:
>>>    =20
>>>> On Wednesday 25 March 2009 18:05:36 james woodyatt wrote:
>>>>  =20
>>>>      =20
>>>>> [moving discussion into V6OPS from 74attendees]
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 25, 2009, at 08:03, R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s wrote:
>>>>>    =20
>>>>>        =20
>>>>>> RFC 3068 (An Anycast Prefix for 6to4 Relay Routers) does more harm=

>>>>>> than good. IMHO, it should be deprecated.
>>>>>>      =20
>>>>>>          =20
>>>>> I would support that, providing first that 6RD is A) adopted as a
>>>>> proposed standard, and B) comes to see more widespread deployment t=
han
>>>>> 6to4.  I also believe the latter is very likely to happen contingen=
t
>>>>> on the former, so I would vigorously support taking up 6RD as a
>>>>> working group activity.
>>>>>    =20
>>>>>        =20
>>>> Anycast 6to4 has problems. I guess Nathan Ward will present some of =
those. 6RD=20
>>>> solves many of the shortcomings of 6to4, _assuming_the_ISP_deploys_i=
t_.
>>>>
>>>> But lest we deprecate the entire scenario of automatic IPv6 setup wi=
thout ISP=20
>>>> support, I fail to see how 6RD can replace anycast 6to4.
>>>>  =20
>>>>      =20
>>> Thanks for your comment.
>>>
>>> Using 6to4 between two 6to4 user sites is NOT a problem, and indeed M=
UST remain=20
>>> possible.
>>> But using a source 6to4 address to reach a non-6to4 destination IS a =
problem,=20
>>> and IMHO MUST be deprecated ASAP.
>>>    =20
>>
>> I'm sorry but this makes no sense. 6to4 users (they exist) need to
>> reach the IPv6 Internet, and a 6to4 relay is the only way to do that,
>> so they have to exist too. Otherwise we are creating IPv6 islands, whi=
ch
>> is a bad idea for encouraging adoption.
>>
>> The fact that the anycast technique leads to black holes is well known=
;
>> I've been a victim of it myself. I'd be much happier if 6to4 had been
>> deployed as described in RFC3056, but we have to deal with reality.
>> Once again, see draft-nward-6to4-qualification for one way to
>> do that.
>>  =20
> Agreed (a partial backtrack): if a 6to4 host first checks that it has a=
 return=20
> path from a native v6 site, then it may proceed rather than giving up v=
6 and=20
> falling back to v4.
>=20
> Note however that, for still some time, falling back to v4 when the qua=
lity of=20
> v6 paths is not guaranteed is not a bad choice.
> Note also that Nathan's proposal checks only connectivity. Uncertainty =
on QoS=20
> remains, due to the lack of control on which 6to4 relay routers are use=
d in=20
> return paths.
>=20
>>> 6to4 to non-6to4 being the only reason for 6to4 relay routers, and fo=
r the 6to4=20
>>> anycast address to reach them, they are what needs being deprecated.
>>>
>>> I guess RFC 3484 should also be updated to say that a 6to4 address MA=
Y be used=20
>>> if both source and destination are 6to4, but ONLY in this case.
>>>    =20
>>
>> Absolutely not. That would make the black hole problem global instead =
of
>> localised.=20
> In my understanding, backing up to v4 when v6 is not fully reliable doe=
sn't=20
> create  black holes. It prevents them.
> At least where 6to4 qualification is not available yet (and substantial=
 host=20
> modifications don't come overnight), avoiding 6to4 to non-6to4 remains =
IMHO a=20
> good way to avoid people to be disappointed with IPv6 and complain.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> RD



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Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:06:19 -0700
References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <0DD150BF-77BC-4527-BD35-9202F94496E0@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8C2@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <95F8ED8E-261B-437C-8063-223D345C364B@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8F4@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <943C3A80-979F-4289-BA20-C17D20861111@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231557i618926bavff56f877c18eeee9@mail.gmail.com> <6161A3E1-DCD1-467F-9AD5-0A15821413A2@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com> <30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com>
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On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:46, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:
> I have also asked in the past to please give us one compelling  
> reason to make RFC 4191 get into the CPE Rtr document.  What  
> particular option from RFC 4191 do you want to use by the CPE Rtr?

I must have missed the request for "one compelling reason" for CPE  
routers to send and receive RFC 4191 more specific route information  
messages on their WAN links.  My apologies.

Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, now  
that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.  I am  
only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has been  
received on the WAN link with L=1.  No other cases are interesting.

The reason I want this should be obvious: so that a CPE router may  
advertise its local prefix on the WAN link to other nodes so as to  
eliminate the need for traffic that originates from them to have to  
hairpin through their default router to be delivered.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar 25 16:17:09 2009
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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:16:39 -0700
References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <0DD150BF-77BC-4527-BD35-9202F94496E0@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8C2@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <95F8ED8E-261B-437C-8063-223D345C364B@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8F4@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <943C3A80-979F-4289-BA20-C17D20861111@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231557i618926bavff56f877c18eeee9@mail.gmail.com> <6161A3E1-DCD1-467F-9AD5-0A15821413A2@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com> <30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com>
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On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:
>
> Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, now  
> that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.  I am  
> only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has been  
> received on the WAN link with L=1.  No other cases are interesting.

I take it back.  It's interesting in the other cases as well.  Two CPE  
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with  
MSR advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service  
provider have PIO options in them.  As they should.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Mar 25 18:48:01 2009
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To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "nward@braintrust.co.nz" <nward@braintrust.co.nz>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2009 18:42:59 -0700
Subject: Comments on draft-nward-6to4-qualification-00
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar 26 01:45:20 2009
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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:11:08 +1030
From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?"R=E9mi_Denis-Courmont"?= <remi@remlab.net>
Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
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References: <1237854355.16613.46.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <200903251916.23679.remi@remlab.net> <49CA851B.2070005@free.fr> <200903252241.57649.remi@remlab.net>
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Hi,

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:41:57 +0200
"R=E9mi Denis-Courmont" <remi@remlab.net> wrote:

> On Wednesday 25 March 2009 21:25:15 R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:
> > <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
> ...
> > Using 6to4 between two 6to4 user sites is NOT a problem, and indeed
> > MUST remain possible.<br>
> > But using a source 6to4 address to reach a non-6to4 destination IS a
> > problem, and IMHO MUST be deprecated ASAP.<br>
>=20
> I am using Anycast 6to4 at home and it worksforme(tm). Who is going to be=
 my=20
> 6RD endpoint when 6to4 is deprecated? My ISP does not provide 6RD. I don'=
t=20
> know if ny DOCSIS modem is compatible with 6RD, and I know for sure that =
my=20
> CPE does not implement 6RD.
>=20
> 6RD is NOT an alternative to 6to4. 6RD is an alternative to native IPv6 f=
or=20
> access networks. To put it another way, 6to4 is deployed by end sites, wh=
ereas =20
> 6RD is deployed by access providers.
>=20

I agree with Remi, 6RD isn't a functionally equivalent alternative to
6to4.

Here in .au ADSL routers are owned by the customer, not managed
by the ISP, so deploying IPv6 via 6RD is unfortunately not an option.

Regards,
Mark.



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar 26 01:55:26 2009
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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 19:24:55 +1030
From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant) <shemant@cisco.com>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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Hi,

On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 16:06:19 -0700
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com> wrote:

> On Mar 25, 2009, at 12:46, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:
> > I have also asked in the past to please give us one compelling  
> > reason to make RFC 4191 get into the CPE Rtr document.  What  
> > particular option from RFC 4191 do you want to use by the CPE Rtr?
> 
> I must have missed the request for "one compelling reason" for CPE  
> routers to send and receive RFC 4191 more specific route information  
> messages on their WAN links.  My apologies.
> 
> Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, now  
> that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.  I am  
> only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has been  
> received on the WAN link with L=1.  No other cases are interesting.
> 
> The reason I want this should be obvious: so that a CPE router may  
> advertise its local prefix on the WAN link to other nodes so as to  
> eliminate the need for traffic that originates from them to have to  
> hairpin through their default router to be delivered.
> 

I agree with James. An implementation model of ADSL with Ethernet
backhaul (TR-101) is to have all CPE sitting in the same "bridged
Ethernet over ADSL" VLAN, ethernet switched in the local telephone
exchange / C.O., with the default router off site, also in the same
VLAN. Having the CPE announce their prefixes to each other would keep
inter-CPE traffic off of the expensive backhaul links. If P2P
applications/traffic become much more locality aware, this would be of
great benefit.

Regards,
Mark.


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar 26 02:13:18 2009
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From: Mohacsi Janos <mohacsi@niif.hu>
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Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
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On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Mark Smith wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On Wed, 25 Mar 2009 22:41:57 +0200
> "Rémi Denis-Courmont" <remi@remlab.net> wrote:
>
>> On Wednesday 25 March 2009 21:25:15 Rémi Després wrote:
>>> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN">
>> ...
>>> Using 6to4 between two 6to4 user sites is NOT a problem, and indeed
>>> MUST remain possible.<br>
>>> But using a source 6to4 address to reach a non-6to4 destination IS a
>>> problem, and IMHO MUST be deprecated ASAP.<br>
>>
>> I am using Anycast 6to4 at home and it worksforme(tm). Who is going to be my
>> 6RD endpoint when 6to4 is deprecated? My ISP does not provide 6RD. I don't
>> know if ny DOCSIS modem is compatible with 6RD, and I know for sure that my
>> CPE does not implement 6RD.
>>
>> 6RD is NOT an alternative to 6to4. 6RD is an alternative to native IPv6 for
>> access networks. To put it another way, 6to4 is deployed by end sites, whereas
>> 6RD is deployed by access providers.
>>
>
> I agree with Remi, 6RD isn't a functionally equivalent alternative to
> 6to4.


The most important difference is that 6RD forcing to the provider to 
provision their own relay.

>
> Here in .au ADSL routers are owned by the customer, not managed
> by the ISP, so deploying IPv6 via 6RD is unfortunately not an option.


As most of the case in the world. Usually the DSL modem owned by the 
provider, but not the router. But there are some countries you can own 
your own DSL modem. In the DOCSIS architecture the cable modem, always 
owned by the provider, potentially can be made more smart to support 6RD, 
however most of the user already installed dumb soho router without ipv6 
support.

Best Regards,
 		Janos Mohacsi

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Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
References: <1237854355.16613.46.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <49CA47DF.9080307@free.fr> <8337B887-0196-4433-A11D-73DB09434476@apple.com> <200903251916.23679.remi@remlab.net> <49CA851B.2070005@free.fr>
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R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:
[..]
> Using 6to4 between two 6to4 user sites is NOT a problem, and indeed MUS=
T
> remain possible.
> But using a source 6to4 address to reach a non-6to4 destination IS a
> problem, and IMHO MUST be deprecated ASAP.

I full agree with this.

> 6to4 to non-6to4 being the only reason for 6to4 relay routers, and for
> the 6to4 anycast address to reach them, they are what needs being
> deprecated.
>=20
> I guess RFC 3484 should also be updated to say that a 6to4 address MAY
> be used if both source and destination are 6to4, but ONLY in this case.=


The idea of 6to4 is great and it also works pretty nifty in practice.

The idea of 6to4+anycast was also good, but unfortunately one gets
several layers of BGP-pull and misconfiguration which are very hard to
debug and thus solve, especially as one will never have access to all
nodes in both IPv4 and IPv6 paths, both ways, to correctly debug it.
On a controlled network that works, but on the wide internet this
doesn't and only causes a lot of issues.

I have to state though that there are a LOT of happy 6to4 users, but
they are only accessing more or less local resources. Thus network-wise
not too far away, which thus makes it a more or less controlled environme=
nt.

Greets,
 Jeroen


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar 26 02:52:02 2009
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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Mark Smith wrote:

> I agree with James. An implementation model of ADSL with Ethernet 
> backhaul (TR-101) is to have all CPE sitting in the same "bridged 
> Ethernet over ADSL" VLAN, ethernet switched in the local telephone 
> exchange / C.O., with the default router off site, also in the same 
> VLAN. Having the CPE announce their prefixes to each other would keep 
> inter-CPE traffic off of the expensive backhaul links. If P2P 
> applications/traffic become much more locality aware, this would be of 
> great benefit.

This sound like a huge security problem, how are those implications 
handled? Wouldn't the L2 device in the CO need to be able to inspect all 
these messages and drop ones which are not assigned to that specific 
customer by the ISP?

In the scenarios I have seen before mechanisms such as forced forwarding 
and/or mac rewrite/DHCP snooping based ACLs been used in the CO L2 device 
to handle this, what are the IPv6 equivalents in this scenario?

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se


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Subject: Qualitative Breitling watches at Exquisite Replicas
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar 26 04:36:35 2009
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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 07:34:07 -0400
From: Jeff McAdams <jeffm@iglou.com>
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To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
References: <1237854355.16613.46.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <200903251916.23679.remi@remlab.net> <49CA851B.2070005@free.fr> <200903252241.57649.remi@remlab.net> <20090326191108.fce4d1e8.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <alpine.BSF.2.00.0903261004520.25486@mignon.ki.iif.hu>
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Mohacsi Janos wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Mark Smith wrote:
>> I agree with Remi, 6RD isn't a functionally equivalent alternative to
>> 6to4.

> The most important difference is that 6RD forcing to the provider to 
> provision their own relay.


Except that it doesn't.

This is a little bit of semantics on the surface, but there's a very 
real point behind it.

Many ISPs don't care about supporting IPv6 yet.  If you, as a customer, 
call their support line to task about it, you basically get something 
along the lines of, "What's IPv6?  Have you rebooted your Windows and 
your (cable|DSL) modem?"

If ISPs don't care enough to support, or even have an inkling of IPv6, 
they're also not going to deploy anything like 6RD (though I admit I'm 
just picking up on the 6RD conversation...but if it requires ISPs to 
deploy something, its basically dead in the water for a long time still).

There are many people (myself included) that are happily using 6to4, and 
we're using 6to4 because the ISPs available to us are utterly and 
completely clueless, so we don't really have any other option.  If the 
6to4 anycast goes away and you require the ISP to deploy something for 
the replacement technology, you are effectively cutting us off from the 
IPv6 Internet for the foreseeable future.  The only other option I see 
is hard to manage and configure, and frequently bandwidth constrained, 
tunnel brokers.

Oh, and my CPE supports 6to4, but not a tunnel broker sort of setup (at 
least that I can find...Apple Airport Extreme)

I don't have any problem with 6RD as an additional transition 
mechanism...I'm not sure its worth the effort, but if people want to go 
down that path, then that's their choice...but please don't take away 
6to4 anycast gateway or I, and several households that I work with, go 
away from the IPv6 Internet.

>> Here in .au ADSL routers are owned by the customer, not managed
>> by the ISP, so deploying IPv6 via 6RD is unfortunately not an option.
> 
> 
> As most of the case in the world. Usually the DSL modem owned by the 
> provider, but not the router. But there are some countries you can own 
> your own DSL modem. In the DOCSIS architecture the cable modem, always 
> owned by the provider, potentially can be made more smart to support 
> 6RD, however most of the user already installed dumb soho router without 
> ipv6 support.
> 
> Best Regards,
>         Janos Mohacsi


-- 
Jeff McAdams
jeffm@iglou.com


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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:57:04 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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>This sound like a huge security problem, how are those implications=20
>handled? Wouldn't the L2 device in the CO need to be able to inspect
all=20
>these messages and drop ones which are not assigned to that specific=20
>customer by the ISP?

>In the scenarios I have seen before mechanisms such as forced
forwarding=20
>and/or mac rewrite/DHCP snooping based ACLs been used in the CO L2
device=20
>to handle this, what are the IPv6 equivalents in this scenario?

Thank you, Mikael.  I just sent email that I too consider such behavior
to be a security hole and gave the rationale for it.

Hemant


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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:55:11 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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James and Mark,

Did you see the security liaison sent to v6ops from the DSL Broadband
Forums folks?  Fred Baker sent it out to the v6ops mailer this week.
DSL is precisely discussing a fact that modems will have to go thru a
default router rather than communicating directly to each other which is
what you two are proposing.  I think we have to let the Broadband forum
complete their IPv6 standards and then depending upon what they do, we
can revisit this RFC 4191 question. =20

At this point I would like you all to see this text below that I and Wes
wrote in an expired draft of
draft-wbeebee-on-link-and-off-link-determination-01.txt.

Hemant

[3.  Router Models

   The Redirect Clarifications section clarifies RFC 4861 [ND] host and
   router behavior for an aggregation router deployment.

   The Aggregation Router Deployment Model section presents a possible
   aggregation router deployment model for IPv6 and discusses its
   properties with respect to ND.  Aggregation routers can service more
   than 100,000 subscribers.  Due to scaling considerations, any NS for
   global address resolution from any host to any other host should not
   reach the aggregation router.

3.1.  Aggregation Router Deployment Model

   A property of routed aggregation networks is that hosts cannot
   directly communicate with each other even if they share the same
   prefix.  Physical connectivity between the aggregation router and the
   modems prevents hosts behind modems to communicate directly with each
   other.  Hosts send their traffic to aggregation router.  This design
   is motivated by scaling and security considerations.  If every host
   could receive all traffic from every other host, then the
   subscriber's privacy would be violated and the amount of bandwidth
   available for each subscriber would be very small.  That is why hosts
   communicate between each other through the aggregation router, which
   is also the IPv6 first-hop router.

   For scaling reasons, any NS to resolve any address other than that of
   the default router should not reach the aggregation router.


                           +-----+
                           |     |
                           |Aggre+----(Rtr CPE)----Host1
            Core----WAN----+gator|
                           | Rtr |
                           |     +----(Br CPE)----(Cust Rtr)----Host2
                           +-----+

                                 Figure 1.

   In the figure above, the customer premises equipment (CPE) is managed
   by the ISP and is deployed behind an aggregation router that is an
   IPv6 first-hop router and also a DHCPv6 relay agent.  IPv6 CPEs are
   either IPv6 routers (Rtr CPE) or IPv6 bridges (Br CPE).  If the
   customer premises uses a bridge CPE, then a router (Cust Rtr) is
   needed.  All hosts reside behind a router CPE or a customer router.

   No NS to resolve any address other than that of the default router



Singh & Beebee            Expires July 4, 2008                  [Page 7]


Internet-Draft          ND On-link Determination            January 2008


   will reach the aggregation router from any device on the customer
   side of the aggregator.  CPEs do not communicate with each other in
   this deployment model since a CPE does not run any applications that
   need to communicate with other CPEs.  Hosts do communicate with each
   other, but every host is off-link to any other host on the
   aggregation router.]



-----Original Message-----
From: james woodyatt [mailto:jhw@apple.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:
>
> Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, now =20
> that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.  I am =20
> only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has been =20
> received on the WAN link with L=3D1.  No other cases are interesting.

I take it back.  It's interesting in the other cases as well.  Two CPE =20
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with =20
MSR advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service =20
provider have PIO options in them.  As they should.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar 26 08:14:01 2009
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Jeroen Massar  -  le (m/j/a) 3/26/09 2:45 AM:
<blockquote cite="mid:49CB4EA9.8020601@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com"
 type="cite">
  <pre wrap="">Rémi Després wrote:
[..]
  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">Using 6to4 between two 6to4 user sites is NOT a problem, and indeed MUST
remain possible.
But using a source 6to4 address to reach a non-6to4 destination IS a
problem, and IMHO MUST be deprecated ASAP.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
I full agree with this.

  </pre>
  <blockquote type="cite">
    <pre wrap="">6to4 to non-6to4 being the only reason for 6to4 relay routers, and for
the 6to4 anycast address to reach them, they are what needs being
deprecated.

I guess RFC 3484 should also be updated to say that a 6to4 address MAY
be used if both source and destination are 6to4, but ONLY in this case.
    </pre>
  </blockquote>
  <pre wrap=""><!---->
The idea of 6to4 is great and it also works pretty nifty in practice.

The idea of 6to4+anycast was also good, but unfortunately one gets
several layers of BGP-pull and misconfiguration which are very hard to
debug and thus solve, especially as one will never have access to all
nodes in both IPv4 and IPv6 paths, both ways, to correctly debug it.
On a controlled network that works, but on the wide internet this
doesn't and only causes a lot of issues.

I have to state though that there are a LOT of happy 6to4 users, but
they are only accessing more or less local resources. Thus network-wise
not too far away, which thus makes it a more or less controlled environment.
  </pre>
</blockquote>
If they do 6to4 to 6to4, which I suppose should often be the case so
far, they are quite right to be happy. They have a good service.<br>
And this will remain so as long as they don't try to do 6to4 to non
6to4 without checking first that a path exists, which current OS don't
do.<br>
<br>
Even if connectivity is checked, the QoS of the 6to4 relay router they
happen to have used is in general not guaranteed, so that backing up to
IPv4 may in general be safer. (This problem doesn't exist with 6rd.)<br>
<br>
Regards,<br>
<br>
RD<br>
<br>
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R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:
[..]
>> I have to state though that there are a LOT of happy 6to4 users, but
>> they are only accessing more or less local resources. Thus network-wis=
e
>> not too far away, which thus makes it a more or less controlled enviro=
nment.
>>  =20
> If they do 6to4 to 6to4, which I suppose should often be the case so
> far, they are quite right to be happy. They have a good service.
>
> And this will remain so as long as they don't try to do 6to4 to non 6to=
4
> without checking first that a path exists, which current OS don't do.

Indeed. Though there are lots of users also happily using
anycasted-6to4. The reason being that the services they are using from
their 6to4 address are located at ISPs that are either clueful and
pro-active in fixing issues or that they are located closely to the
relay which is their anycast node. In that case one basically has an
automatically set-up proto-41 tunnel directly to the service you are
using, and then things work quite smoothly.

The moment though that other networks, who did setup 6to4 but who don't
really check their service get involved, then things start to break
miraculously. And as a content-provider on native IPv6 there is not much
to do about those kind of networks, but they do affect connectivity to
the enduser.

> Even if connectivity is checked, the QoS of the 6to4 relay router they
> happen to have used is in general not guaranteed, so that backing up to=

> IPv4 may in general be safer. (This problem doesn't exist with 6rd.)

Well it doesn't exist in 6rd because then the infrastructure is all ISP
owned and most likely they do care about their network.

Note that 'checking connectivity' is not always a good thing, especially
when one is checking connectivity to a well-maintained service, that one
might work, but any other network will just still fail.

Greets,
 Jeroen


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar 26 08:59:25 2009
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Jeff McAdams  -  le (m/j/a) 3/26/09 4:34 AM:
> Mohacsi Janos wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Mark Smith wrote:
>>> I agree with Remi, 6RD isn't a functionally equivalent alternative to
>>> 6to4.
>
>> The most important difference is that 6RD forcing to the provider to 
>> provision their own relay.
>
>
> Except that it doesn't.
>
> This is a little bit of semantics on the surface, but there's a very 
> real point behind it.
>
> Many ISPs don't care about supporting IPv6 yet.  If you, as a 
> customer, call their support line to task about it, you basically get 
> something along the lines of, "What's IPv6?  Have you rebooted your 
> Windows and your (cable|DSL) modem?"
>
> If ISPs don't care enough to support, or even have an inkling of IPv6, 
> they're also not going to deploy anything like 6RD (though I admit I'm 
> just picking up on the 6RD conversation...but if it requires ISPs to 
> deploy something, its basically dead in the water for a long time still).
When you read draft-despres-6rd-02, you will see that Free, the second 
largest ISP in France, with millions os DSL customers, deployed 6rd in 5 
weeks (6rd stands for IPv6 Rapid Deployment.)
>
> There are many people (myself included) that are happily using 6to4, 
> and we're using 6to4 because the ISPs available to us are utterly and 
> completely clueless, so we don't really have any other option.  If the 
> 6to4 anycast goes away and you require the ISP to deploy something for 
> the replacement technology, you are effectively cutting us off from 
> the IPv6 Internet for the foreseeable future.
The point is that ISPs, rather than setting up a 6to4 relay router 
should setup a 6rd Gateway in order to offer native IPv6 prefix to their 
customers.
>   The only other option I see is hard to manage and configure, and 
> frequently bandwidth constrained, tunnel brokers.
>
> Oh, and my CPE supports 6to4, but not a tunnel broker sort of setup 
> (at least that I can find...Apple Airport Extreme)
>
> I don't have any problem with 6RD as an additional transition 
> mechanism...I'm not sure its worth the effort, but if people want to 
> go down that path, then that's their choice...but please don't take 
> away 6to4 anycast gateway or I, and several households that I work 
> with, go away from the IPv6 Internet.
Taking them away is not needed. It's only that using them without 
precautions to reach native IPv6 servers will lead to customer 
frustration with, at least sometimes, poor quality IPv6 experience, 
something to be avoided.

Regards,

RD


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To: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@unfix.org>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:40:08 -0700
Subject: RE: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
Thread-Topic: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
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> From: Jeroen Massar, Thursday, March 26, 2009 8:42 AM

> Indeed. Though there are lots of users also happily using anycasted-
> 6to4. The reason being that the services they are using from their 6to4
> address are located at ISPs that are either clueful and pro-active in
> fixing issues or that they are located closely to the relay which is
> their anycast node. In that case one basically has an automatically
> set-up proto-41 tunnel directly to the service you are using, and then
> things work quite smoothly.
>
> The moment though that other networks, who did setup 6to4 but who don't
> really check their service get involved, then things start to break
> miraculously. And as a content-provider on native IPv6 there is not
> much to do about those kind of networks, but they do affect
> connectivity to the enduser.

Jeroen gives a good description of the problem. Anycast is convenient, but =
unpredictable. In theory, anycast allows 6to4 nodes to always use the relay=
 closest to them, which should provide for a good service. In practice, tha=
t works well when the relay is actually close, e.g. managed by the local pr=
ovider, but not so well when the relay is remote and the route to it obtain=
ed through several BGP hops.

There are several possible mitigations to this issue.

An obvious mitigation is, "deploy more relays." The hope when writing RFC 3=
068 was that many providers would deploy many relays for local use, and thu=
s users would be mostly be using local relays. When there are many relays, =
the reliance on BGP is minimal, and the service becomes much more reliable.=
 Of course, I realize that if the IETF recommend deploying more relays, pro=
viders may or may not follow the recommendation. The cost of deploying rela=
ys is not very high, but the benefits are also not very high, essentially a=
 slight reduction in the amount of tunneled traffic through the providers i=
nterconnections and probably also a slight reduction in the number of suppo=
rt calls. Even so, clear messages from the IETF would certainly help.

Another mitigation is to "avoid 6to4 when it does not work" -- and presumab=
ly use another technology in these cases. This is the approach documented i=
n Nathan Ward's draft. It makes a lot of sense from an operational point of=
 view, but it requires that the end systems implement test procedures. This=
 will probably happen over time. On the other hand, if we consider updating=
 end system, we can also consider changes to end system that increase the r=
eliability of 6to4.

Since RFC 3068 was published, there have been several suggestions for impro=
vements. One possibility is to explicitly provision a 6to4 gateway in the 6=
to4 node. This is obviously a tradeoff, as sending traffic to a remote gate=
way may be less efficient than sending traffic to the closest anycast gatew=
ay -- but it is also much more predictable. An interesting possibility woul=
d be to combine this provisioning with the test procedure, maybe testing se=
veral gateways and selecting the one that works best.

-- Christian Huitema







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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 05:43:53 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
CC: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>,  "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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Hemant,

On 2009-03-27 03:55, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:
> James and Mark,
> 
> Did you see the security liaison sent to v6ops from the DSL Broadband
> Forums folks?  Fred Baker sent it out to the v6ops mailer this week.
> DSL is precisely discussing a fact that modems will have to go thru a
> default router rather than communicating directly to each other which is
> what you two are proposing.  I think we have to let the Broadband forum
> complete their IPv6 standards and then depending upon what they do, we
> can revisit this RFC 4191 question.  

If the broadband forum people don't want a use case with direct CPE-CPE
communication, that's their choice, but we shouldn't artificially
restrict this in the base spec for CPEs, IMHO. We write IPv6 basic
standards; they apply them to their use cases.

    Brian


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar 26 09:53:24 2009
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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de
cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de wrote:

> Normally the customers are separated from each other by split horizont mchanisms and MAC adress translation techniques.

Yes, but that defeats the whole purpose of the proposal from Mark Smith if 
I correctly interpret the scenario he proposed.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se


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Rémi Després wrote:
> Jeff McAdams  -  le (m/j/a) 3/26/09 4:34 AM:
>> If ISPs don't care enough to support, or even have an inkling of IPv6, 
>> they're also not going to deploy anything like 6RD (though I admit I'm 
>> just picking up on the 6RD conversation...but if it requires ISPs to 
>> deploy something, its basically dead in the water for a long time still).

> When you read draft-despres-6rd-02, you will see that Free, the second 
> largest ISP in France, with millions os DSL customers, deployed 6rd in 5 
> weeks (6rd stands for IPv6 Rapid Deployment.)

And that's great for them.  Seriously, I applaud them for that.  But my 
comment was about ISPs that just flat-out don't care.  At all.  In the 
slightest.  And sadly, this is a significant fraction of the consumer ISPs.

Free, in France, clearly cares about IPv6 and wants to deploy it in the 
most reliable and effective way possible.  Again, I applaud that 
wholeheartedly.  Let me know when Windstream, here in the US responds to 
questions about IPv6 with anything other than, "Have you rebooted your 
computer and DSL modem?"

Earlier in the thread, there was discussion of taking away anycast 6to4 
gateways.  That's the only thing that I'm against, here.  If you and 
others want to deploy 6RD, fantastic, more power to you.  If Windstream 
deploys 6RD, I'll try to take advantage of it as well...I'm definitely 
not holding my breath that they will, though.

In the meantime, without 6to4 anycast relays, my only other option for 
IPv6 connectivity is harder-to-manage-and-configure tunnel broker 
connections.  Realistically, removing 6to4 anycast relays cuts me off 
from the IPv6 Internet.

>> I don't have any problem with 6RD as an additional transition 
>> mechanism...I'm not sure its worth the effort, but if people want to 
>> go down that path, then that's their choice...but please don't take 
>> away 6to4 anycast gateway or I, and several households that I work 
>> with, go away from the IPv6 Internet.

> Taking them away is not needed. It's only that using them without 
> precautions to reach native IPv6 servers will lead to customer 
> frustration with, at least sometimes, poor quality IPv6 experience, 
> something to be avoided.

I haven't experienced any significant negative behaviors from 6to4 
anycast relays.  I know that its possible, and troubleshooting that case 
is hard, very hard even.  Its uncommon enough, in my experience at 
least, that 6to4 is a reasonable, if not perfect, transition mechanism 
for use on an ISP that just is utterly clueless that the Internet is 
anything more than HTTP on port 80 and 443 (as far as I know, 
Windstream's email infrastructure is webmail only...*sheesh*)

All I'm asking for is to not deprecate 6to4 anycast relays as part of 
6RD.  Using 6RD looks like (after a quick perusal of the 
draft...certainly don't qualify as an expert on it) a reasonable 
improvement as a transition mechanism, at least in networks where the 
ISP wishes to support IPv6 access.  Just don't forget about us poor 
folks on the truly clueless ISPs that want to help push the IPv6 
adoption cause forward.
-- 
Jeff McAdams
jeffm@iglou.com


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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 15:38:14 -0400
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <0DD150BF-77BC-4527-BD35-9202F94496E0@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8C2@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <95F8ED8E-261B-437C-8063-223D345C364B@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8F4@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <943C3A80-979F-4289-BA20-C17D20861111@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231557i618926bavff56f877c18eeee9@mail.gmail.com> <6161A3E1-DCD1-467F-9AD5-0A15821413A2@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com> <30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com> <925FA39D-42FC-4E3B-99C7-FA6E0DC7E0B7@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFC BA910CF7 E1D06C87D9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com>
From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>, "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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> I think we have to let the Broadband forum
> complete their IPv6 standards and then depending upon what they do, we
> can revisit this RFC 4191 question. =20

The capabilities described in RFC 4191 are certainly something the BBF
is looking at, and it would be interesting to hear IETF thoughts on the
cases that it might handle.=20

Here are some possible scenarios:
(1) CPE Router has multiple WAN connections. Let's say one is a
"default" connection that goes to the Internet, while the other is a
connection to a walled garden, or a corporate network, or such. The CPE
router gets prefixes delegated from each, and makes those prefixes
available on its LAN. Is it appropriate / useful for the secondary
network to use RFC 4191 to state which prefixes are behind it? In this
case, the CPE router would need to put that information in its routing
table. Should the CPE Router also use RFC 4191 to tell devices on its
LAN that it supports "default" routes plus these secondary prefixes?

(2) CPE Router has a wired WAN connection and a backup wireless WAN
connection. Both support "default" connectivity. RFC 4191 could be used
by the wireless connection to state that it's less preferred. A better
solution would probably be to just configure the CPE router with that
knowledge. The wireless network isn't the right place to house the
knowledge of whether or not it's preferred. I don't think RFC 4191 would
be used well here, but it's something to think about.

(3) The home has multiple connections through multiple routers. Perhaps
one of these routers is like the router in (1) above, while another
router also supplies a "default" connection, and yet a 3rd supplies a
connection to a walled garden service (maybe it does this by tunneling
over one of the other connections -- if so, this should be invisible to
the hosts in the LAN). Each router advertises prefix(es) to the LAN. It
makes sense for the router to also advertise which prefixes it can
route, especially the walled garden prefixes, which may not be
accessible through any other connection.

RIPng (or other protocols like it) doesn't really seem to be the right
answer here. As mentioned in the CPE Router draft, it has scalability
concerns in the access network. And it seems kind of weird in the LAN.
But using RFC 4191 to supply route info in the RA would be pretty easy.
This route info is fairly static.

By the way -- these are all real scenarios. People and service providers
do these things. They just don't always do them well, today. (1) is
particularly common in IPv4, and is handled through static routing table
entries.
Barbara


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar 26 12:40:21 2009
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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 09:36:16 -1000 (HST)
From: Antonio Querubin <tony@lava.net>
To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:

> This sound like a huge security problem, how are those implications handled? 
> Wouldn't the L2 device in the CO need to be able to inspect all these 
> messages and drop ones which are not assigned to that specific customer by 
> the ISP?

Perhaps you're assuming that multiple customers are sharing the same 
subnet?  In the case where customers do NOT share subnets, I fail to see 
how this adds a security problem that didn't already exist before.  In 
IPv4, if a DSL provider gives a customer a /28 instead of /30 for the WAN 
link, that customer could easily hang multiple CPE routers off of their 
WAN-side ethernet switch now and they could talk to each other.  Some of 
our customers use their WAN subnet as a DMZ and their routers are 
firewalls.  But the communication on the WAN subnet between customer 
devices stays on the local ethernet switch and shouldn't traverse the DSL 
loop.  I don't think we should cripple that capability for IPv6.

Antonio Querubin
whois:  AQ7-ARIN


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar 26 13:15:21 2009
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Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 10:14:18 -1000 (HST)
From: Antonio Querubin <tony@lava.net>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
cc: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>,  james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>,  "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Stark, Barbara wrote:

> The capabilities described in RFC 4191 are certainly something the BBF
> is looking at, and it would be interesting to hear IETF thoughts on the
> cases that it might handle.
>
> Here are some possible scenarios:
> (1) CPE Router has multiple WAN connections. Let's say one is a

> (2) CPE Router has a wired WAN connection and a backup wireless WAN
> connection. Both support "default" connectivity. RFC 4191 could be used

> (3) The home has multiple connections through multiple routers. Perhaps
>
> RIPng (or other protocols like it) doesn't really seem to be the right
> answer here. As mentioned in the CPE Router draft, it has scalability
> concerns in the access network. And it seems kind of weird in the LAN.
> But using RFC 4191 to supply route info in the RA would be pretty easy.
> This route info is fairly static.
>
> By the way -- these are all real scenarios. People and service providers
> do these things. They just don't always do them well, today. (1) is
> particularly common in IPv4, and is handled through static routing table

Concur.  Even for the general case of multiple cascaded CPERs, I think we 
do want them to know how to talk directly to each other rather than 
forcing all intra-customer traffic through the next upstream CPER.

Antonio Querubin
whois:  AQ7-ARIN


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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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Thread-Topic: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <0DD150BF-77BC-4527-BD35-9202F94496E0@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8C2@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <95F8ED8E-261B-437C-8063-223D345C364B@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8F4@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <943C3A80-979F-4289-BA20-C17D20861111@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231557i618926bavff56f877c18eeee9@mail.gmail.com> <6161A3E1-DCD1-467F-9AD5-0A15821413A2@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com> <30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com> <925FA39D-42FC-4E3B-99C7-FA6E0DC7E0B7@apple.com>
From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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James,

-----Original Message-----
From: james woodyatt [mailto:jhw@apple.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments


>I take it back.  It's interesting in the other cases as well.  Two CPE

>routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with =20
>MSR advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service =20
>provider have PIO options in them.  As they should.


Wow! Next time it is better you send us ascii diagram of the network
topology you are talking about because I was on a totally different page
than you were.  Thanks to my Cisco colleague in Ole who talked with you
at the IETF and then Ole pinged my buddy Wes and explained your
topology, I realized, I am talking one thing while you are talking
another.  We were all thinking that the CPE Rtr would be the first hop
in the home while you were describing a hub directly behind the
broadband modem.  The hub is a totally broken model to deploy your
Airport Extreme with the Apple TV.  The hub sends all your video to the
SP, say Comcast, and your home access will be shutdown fairly soon
because the home hogged so much of their network bandwidth with the
video going between the Apple TV and Airport Extreme. Sorry, I don't
consider this totally broken network as a reason to add MSR RFC 4191 to
the CPE Rtr just yet.

Thanks, Wes, and Ole.

Hemant


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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:46:37 -0400
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From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: <tony@lava.net>, <swmike@swm.pp.se>
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That's an interesting use case, with definite application, but I wonder =
if it's really compelling in the case of the simple CPE Router.=20

When CPE Routers are cascaded, the cascaded router is generally directly =
connected to the upstream router, so that there would be no added =
efficiencies from this.=20

Also, service providers that I talk to are quite adamant about not =
wanting to see RAs coming at them from the WAN interfaces of CPE =
Routers. I could easily envision some SPs disabling connections where =
they see RAs. So CPE Routers that did this could potentially create a =
very bad user experience, if there were Terms and Conditions (that the =
customer agreed to but didn't read or necessarily understand) that said =
it was forbidden for them to have their router send RAs.=20

I would rather if sending RAs out a WAN interface were considered a =
function for medium/high end business or enterprise routers, but not CPE =
routers. I think you will see CPE routers supplied by service providers =
will not do RA (or any other route advertisement) to the WAN.=20
Barbara

----- Original Message -----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org <owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Sent: Thu Mar 26 15:36:16 2009
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:

> This sound like a huge security problem, how are those implications =
handled?=20
> Wouldn't the L2 device in the CO need to be able to inspect all these=20
> messages and drop ones which are not assigned to that specific =
customer by=20
> the ISP?

Perhaps you're assuming that multiple customers are sharing the same=20
subnet?  In the case where customers do NOT share subnets, I fail to see =

how this adds a security problem that didn't already exist before.  In=20
IPv4, if a DSL provider gives a customer a /28 instead of /30 for the =
WAN=20
link, that customer could easily hang multiple CPE routers off of their=20
WAN-side ethernet switch now and they could talk to each other.  Some of =

our customers use their WAN subnet as a DMZ and their routers are=20
firewalls.  But the communication on the WAN subnet between customer=20
devices stays on the local ethernet switch and shouldn't traverse the =
DSL=20
loop.  I don't think we should cripple that capability for IPv6.

Antonio Querubin
whois:  AQ7-ARIN


*****

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>That's an interesting use case, with definite =
application, but I wonder if it's really compelling in the case of the =
simple CPE Router.<BR>
<BR>
When CPE Routers are cascaded, the cascaded router is generally directly =
connected to the upstream router, so that there would be no added =
efficiencies from this.<BR>
<BR>
Also, service providers that I talk to are quite adamant about not =
wanting to see RAs coming at them from the WAN interfaces of CPE =
Routers. I could easily envision some SPs disabling connections where =
they see RAs. So CPE Routers that did this could potentially create a =
very bad user experience, if there were Terms and Conditions (that the =
customer agreed to but didn't read or necessarily understand) that said =
it was forbidden for them to have their router send RAs.<BR>
<BR>
I would rather if sending RAs out a WAN interface were considered a =
function for medium/high end business or enterprise routers, but not CPE =
routers. I think you will see CPE routers supplied by service providers =
will not do RA (or any other route advertisement) to the WAN.<BR>
Barbara<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org &lt;owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<BR>
To: Mikael Abrahamsson &lt;swmike@swm.pp.se&gt;<BR>
Cc: IPv6 Operations &lt;v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<BR>
Sent: Thu Mar 26 15:36:16 2009<BR>
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments<BR>
<BR>
On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Mikael Abrahamsson wrote:<BR>
<BR>
&gt; This sound like a huge security problem, how are those implications =
handled?<BR>
&gt; Wouldn't the L2 device in the CO need to be able to inspect all =
these<BR>
&gt; messages and drop ones which are not assigned to that specific =
customer by<BR>
&gt; the ISP?<BR>
<BR>
Perhaps you're assuming that multiple customers are sharing the same<BR>
subnet?&nbsp; In the case where customers do NOT share subnets, I fail =
to see<BR>
how this adds a security problem that didn't already exist before.&nbsp; =
In<BR>
IPv4, if a DSL provider gives a customer a /28 instead of /30 for the =
WAN<BR>
link, that customer could easily hang multiple CPE routers off of =
their<BR>
WAN-side ethernet switch now and they could talk to each other.&nbsp; =
Some of<BR>
our customers use their WAN subnet as a DMZ and their routers are<BR>
firewalls.&nbsp; But the communication on the WAN subnet between =
customer<BR>
devices stays on the local ethernet switch and shouldn't traverse the =
DSL<BR>
loop.&nbsp; I don't think we should cripple that capability for =
IPv6.<BR>
<BR>
Antonio Querubin<BR>
whois:&nbsp; AQ7-ARIN<BR>
<BR>
</FONT>
</P>

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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 16:57:05 -0400
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From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>, <tony@lava.net>, <swmike@swm.pp.se>
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Agree, whole-heartedly!!!   We recommend CMTS service providers block
upstream RA's.
=20
- Wes

________________________________

From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Stark, Barbara
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:47 PM
To: tony@lava.net; swmike@swm.pp.se
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments



That's an interesting use case, with definite application, but I wonder
if it's really compelling in the case of the simple CPE Router.

When CPE Routers are cascaded, the cascaded router is generally directly
connected to the upstream router, so that there would be no added
efficiencies from this.

Also, service providers that I talk to are quite adamant about not
wanting to see RAs coming at them from the WAN interfaces of CPE
Routers. I could easily envision some SPs disabling connections where
they see RAs. So CPE Routers that did this could potentially create a
very bad user experience, if there were Terms and Conditions (that the
customer agreed to but didn't read or necessarily understand) that said
it was forbidden for them to have their router send RAs.

I would rather if sending RAs out a WAN interface were considered a
function for medium/high end business or enterprise routers, but not CPE
routers. I think you will see CPE routers supplied by service providers
will not do RA (or any other route advertisement) to the WAN.
Barbara




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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D952295520-26032009><FONT =
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color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Agree, whole-heartedly!!!&nbsp;&nbsp; We =
recommend CMTS=20
service providers block upstream RA's.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D952295520-26032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D952295520-26032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>- Wes</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20
[mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Stark,=20
Barbara<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 26, 2009 4:47 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
tony@lava.net; swmike@swm.pp.se<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
v6ops@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04=20
comments<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P><FONT size=3D2>That's an interesting use case, with definite =
application, but I=20
wonder if it's really compelling in the case of the simple CPE=20
Router.<BR><BR>When CPE Routers are cascaded, the cascaded router is =
generally=20
directly connected to the upstream router, so that there would be no =
added=20
efficiencies from this.<BR><BR>Also, service providers that I talk to =
are quite=20
adamant about not wanting to see RAs coming at them from the WAN =
interfaces of=20
CPE Routers. I could easily envision some SPs disabling connections =
where they=20
see RAs. So CPE Routers that did this could potentially create a very =
bad user=20
experience, if there were Terms and Conditions (that the customer agreed =
to but=20
didn't read or necessarily understand) that said it was forbidden for =
them to=20
have their router send RAs.<BR><BR>I would rather if sending RAs out a =
WAN=20
interface were considered a function for medium/high end business or =
enterprise=20
routers, but not CPE routers. I think you will see CPE routers supplied =
by=20
service providers will not do RA (or any other route advertisement) to =
the=20
WAN.<BR>Barbara<BR><BR></FONT></P></BODY></HTML>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C9AE55.6BD3DC1C--


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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:04:11 -0400
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <0DD150BF-77BC-4527-BD35-9202F94496E0@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8C2@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <95F8ED8E-261B-437C-8063-223D345C364B@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8F4@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <943C3A80-979F-4289-BA20-C17D20861111@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231557i618926bavff56f877c18eeee9@mail.gmail.com> <6161A3E1-DCD1-467F-9AD5-0A15821413A2@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com> <30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com> <925FA39D-42FC-4E3B-99C7-FA6E0DC7E0B7@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFC BA910CF7 E1D06C87D9C@ xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA0D880CA8@crexc41p>
From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>, "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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>And it seems kind of weird in the LAN.

For two or more routers that have to communicate between each other in a
LAN, using RIPng between the routers is the most common-place and
sensible thing to do including if two routers sit in a broadband
connected home.  Yes, if one has router to host communication going on,
then some other protocol may make sense.  Thanks for providing your
typical customer deployments.  We will go thru them and see what we can
suggest.

Thanks,

Hemant


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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: Antonio Querubin <tony@lava.net>
cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Antonio Querubin wrote:

> Perhaps you're assuming that multiple customers are sharing the same 
> subnet? In the case where customers do NOT share subnets, I fail to see 
> how this adds a security problem that didn't already exist before.  In 
> IPv4, if a DSL provider gives a customer a /28 instead of /30 for the 
> WAN link, that customer could easily hang multiple CPE routers off of 
> their WAN-side ethernet switch now and they could talk to each other. 
> Some of our customers use their WAN subnet as a DMZ and their routers 
> are firewalls.  But the communication on the WAN subnet between customer 
> devices stays on the local ethernet switch and shouldn't traverse the 
> DSL loop.  I don't think we should cripple that capability for IPv6.

Yes I was under the impression that what Mark Smith was referring to was 
multiple residential customer CPEs (different unrelated households) in the 
same subnet with ethernet backhaul.

As long as there is only a single administrative entity per subnet, no 
security implications arise, just as you say.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se


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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
Cc: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>,  "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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>>I take it back. =A0It's interesting in the other cases as well. =A0Two CP=
E
>
>>routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with
>>MSR advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service
>>provider have PIO options in them. =A0As they should.
>
>
> Wow! Next time it is better you send us ascii diagram of the network
> topology you are talking about because I was on a totally different page
> than you were. =A0Thanks to my Cisco colleague in Ole who talked with you
> at the IETF and then Ole pinged my buddy Wes and explained your
> topology, I realized, I am talking one thing while you are talking
> another. =A0We were all thinking that the CPE Rtr would be the first hop
> in the home while you were describing a hub directly behind the
> broadband modem. =A0The hub is a totally broken model to deploy your
> Airport Extreme with the Apple TV. =A0The hub sends all your video to the
> SP, say Comcast, and your home access will be shutdown fairly soon
> because the home hogged so much of their network bandwidth with the
> video going between the Apple TV and Airport Extreme. Sorry, I don't
> consider this totally broken network as a reason to add MSR RFC 4191 to
> the CPE Rtr just yet.

I think the model is to have a switch behind the CM so you wouldn't
need to congest the upstream.

Ole


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Mar 26 18:17:14 2009
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Subject: RE: Liaison from the Broadband Forum
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 21:11:18 -0400
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From: "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
To: "Fred Baker" <fred@cisco.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Just to clarify on the liason from the BBF. The issue is related to the
IP-Edge Node/BNG and not the CPE.
=20
=20
Alan K

________________________________

From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Fred Baker
Sent: March 25, 2009 1:09 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Fwd: Liaison from the Broadband Forum


As I mentioned in the meeting Monday, we re in receipt of a liaison (a
letter) from the Broadband Forum. This relates to the work of several
working groups, and in ours is primarily related to the CPE draft. The
authors of that draft are in direct communication with the Forum and are
addressing the issues raised. That said, any opinions on the questions
would be good.


Begin forwarded message:


	From: "Young, Gavin" <Gavin.Young@cw.com>
	Date: March 22, 2009 1:49:09 PM PDT
	To: <fenner@fenron.com>, <christian.vogt@ericsson.com>,
<fred.baker@cisco.com>, <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>, <dromasca@avaya.com>,
<rbonica@juniper.net>, <rdroms@cisco.com>, <jari.arkko@piuha.net>,
<townsley@cisco.com>
	Cc: "David Allan" <dallan@nortel.com>, <david.j.thorne@bt.com>
	Subject: Liaison from the Broadband Forum


	Dear all,

=09

	Please find attached a liaison from the Broadband Forum.

=09

	Regards,

=09

	Gavin Young

	Technical Committee Chair

=09

=09

=09


Gavin Young


Chief Architect C&W Access


Cable&Wireless=20


Europe, Asia & US


Direct Dial: +44 (0) 207 528 3597

Mobile: +44 (0) 7748 937 007
Email: gavin.young@cw.com

www.cw.com <http://www.cw.com/> =20

=09


	This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless
e-mail security system - powered by MessageLabs. For more information on
a proactive managed e-mail security service, visit
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=09
	Cable and Wireless plc=20
	Registered in England and Wales.Company Number 238525=20
	Registered office: 3rd Floor, 26 Red Lion Square, London WC1R
4HQ
=09


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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D112031001-27032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Just to clarify on the liason from the BBF. The =
issue is=20
related to the IP-Edge Node/BNG and not the CPE.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN class=3D112031001-27032009><FONT face=3DArial color=3D#0000ff =
size=3D2>Alan=20
K</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20
[mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Fred =
Baker<BR><B>Sent:</B>=20
March 25, 2009 1:09 PM<BR><B>To:</B> IPv6 Operations<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
Fwd:=20
Liaison from the Broadband Forum<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>As I mentioned in the meeting Monday, we re in receipt of a =
liaison=20
(a letter) from the Broadband Forum. This relates to the work of several =
working=20
groups, and in ours is primarily related to the CPE draft. The authors =
of that=20
draft are in direct communication with the Forum and are addressing the =
issues=20
raised. That said, any opinions on the questions would be good.<BR>
<DIV><BR>
<DIV>Begin forwarded message:</DIV><BR =
class=3DApple-interchange-newline>
<BLOCKQUOTE type=3D"cite">
  <DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: =
#000000"=20
  face=3DHelvetica color=3D#000000 size=3D3><B>From: </B></FONT><FONT=20
  style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=3DHelvetica size=3D3>"Young, =
Gavin" &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:Gavin.Young@cw.com">Gavin.Young@cw.com</A>&gt;</FONT></DIV=
>
  <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: =
#000000"=20
  face=3DHelvetica color=3D#000000 size=3D3><B>Date: </B></FONT><FONT=20
  style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=3DHelvetica size=3D3>March 22, =
2009 1:49:09 PM=20
  PDT</FONT></DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: =
#000000"=20
  face=3DHelvetica color=3D#000000 size=3D3><B>To: </B></FONT><FONT=20
  style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=3DHelvetica size=3D3>&lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:fenner@fenron.com">fenner@fenron.com</A>&gt;, &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:christian.vogt@ericsson.com">christian.vogt@ericsson.com</=
A>&gt;,=20
  &lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:fred.baker@cisco.com">fred.baker@cisco.com</A>&gt;, =
&lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:kurtis@kurtis.pp.se">kurtis@kurtis.pp.se</A>&gt;, =
&lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</A>&gt;, &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net">rbonica@juniper.net</A>&gt;, =
&lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:rdroms@cisco.com">rdroms@cisco.com</A>&gt;, &lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net">jari.arkko@piuha.net</A>&gt;, =
&lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:townsley@cisco.com">townsley@cisco.com</A>&gt;</FONT></DIV=
>
  <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: =
#000000"=20
  face=3DHelvetica color=3D#000000 size=3D3><B>Cc: </B></FONT><FONT=20
  style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=3DHelvetica size=3D3>"David Allan" =
&lt;<A=20
  href=3D"mailto:dallan@nortel.com">dallan@nortel.com</A>&gt;, &lt;<A=20
  =
href=3D"mailto:david.j.thorne@bt.com">david.j.thorne@bt.com</A>&gt;</FONT=
></DIV>
  <DIV style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><FONT style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: =
#000000"=20
  face=3DHelvetica color=3D#000000 size=3D3><B>Subject: </B></FONT><FONT =

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from the=20
  Broadband Forum</B></FONT></DIV>
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  style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
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  <P class=3DMsoNormal><FONT face=3DArial size=3D2><SPAN=20
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w:insauthor=3D"Bulldog"><ST1:PLACE=20
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Message-Id: <D201E72F-115D-4974-9BF8-D2F16C7CEBD3@cisco.com>
From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
To: "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
In-Reply-To: <35815C929B41D2479A224FE098A272270708D47F@ecamlmw720.eamcs.ericsson.se>
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Subject: Re: Liaison from the Broadband Forum
Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2009 18:51:48 -0700
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Sorry, my error. Bark Stark tells me there is another one coming  
related to the CPE.

On Mar 26, 2009, at 6:11 PM, Alan Kavanagh wrote:

> Just to clarify on the liason from the BBF. The issue is related to  
> the IP-Edge Node/BNG and not the CPE.
>
>
> Alan K
>
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On  
> Behalf Of Fred Baker
> Sent: March 25, 2009 1:09 PM
> To: IPv6 Operations
> Subject: Fwd: Liaison from the Broadband Forum
>
> As I mentioned in the meeting Monday, we re in receipt of a liaison  
> (a letter) from the Broadband Forum. This relates to the work of  
> several working groups, and in ours is primarily related to the CPE  
> draft. The authors of that draft are in direct communication with  
> the Forum and are addressing the issues raised. That said, any  
> opinions on the questions would be good.
>
> Begin forwarded message:
>
>> From: "Young, Gavin" <Gavin.Young@cw.com>
>> Date: March 22, 2009 1:49:09 PM PDT
>> To: <fenner@fenron.com>, <christian.vogt@ericsson.com>, <fred.baker@cisco.com 
>> >, <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>, <dromasca@avaya.com>,  
>> <rbonica@juniper.net>, <rdroms@cisco.com>, <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, <townsley@cisco.com 
>> >
>> Cc: "David Allan" <dallan@nortel.com>, <david.j.thorne@bt.com>
>> Subject: Liaison from the Broadband Forum
>>
>> Dear all,
>> Please find attached a liaison from the Broadband Forum.
>> Regards,
>> Gavin Young
>> Technical Committee Chair
>> Gavin Young
>> Chief Architect C&W Access
>> Cable&Wireless
>> Europe, Asia & US
>> Direct Dial: +44 (0) 207 528 3597
>> Mobile: +44 (0) 7748 937 007
>> Email: gavin.young@cw.com
>> www.cw.com
>>
>> This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless e- 
>> mail security system - powered by MessageLabs. For more information  
>> on a proactive managed e-mail security service, visit http://www.cw.com/uk/emailprotection/
>>
>> The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may  
>> also be subject to legal privilege. It is intended only for the  
>> recipient(s) named above. If you are not named above as a  
>> recipient, you must not read, copy, disclose, forward or otherwise  
>> use the information contained in this email. If you have received  
>> this e-mail in error, please notify the sender (whose contact  
>> details are above) immediately by reply e-mail and delete the  
>> message and any attachments without retaining any copies.
>>
>> Cable and Wireless plc
>> Registered in England and Wales.Company Number 238525
>> Registered office: 3rd Floor, 26 Red Lion Square, London WC1R 4HQ


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">Sorry, my error. Bark Stark =
tells me there is another one coming related to the =
CPE.<div><br><div><div>On Mar 26, 2009, at 6:11 PM, Alan Kavanagh =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"> <div style=3D"WORD-WRAP: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space"> <div dir=3D"ltr" =
align=3D"left"><span class=3D"112031001-27032009"><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2">Just to clarify on the liason from the BBF. =
The issue is related to the IP-Edge Node/BNG and not the =
CPE.</font></span></div> <div>&nbsp;</div> <div><font face=3D"Arial" =
color=3D"#0000ff" size=3D"2"></font>&nbsp;</div> <div><span =
class=3D"112031001-27032009"><font face=3D"Arial" color=3D"#0000ff" =
size=3D"2">Alan K</font></span></div> <div><br></div> <div =
class=3D"OutlookMessageHeader" lang=3D"en-us" dir=3D"ltr" align=3D"left"> =
<hr tabindex=3D"-1"> <font face=3D"Tahoma" size=3D"2"><b>From:</b> <a =
href=3D"mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org">owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org</a> =
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org">mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org</=
a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Fred Baker<br><b>Sent:</b> March 25, 2009 1:09 =
PM<br><b>To:</b> IPv6 Operations<br><b>Subject:</b> Fwd: Liaison from =
the Broadband Forum<br></font><br></div> <div></div>As I mentioned in =
the meeting Monday, we re in receipt of a liaison (a letter) from the =
Broadband Forum. This relates to the work of several working groups, and =
in ours is primarily related to the CPE draft. The authors of that draft =
are in direct communication with the Forum and are addressing the issues =
raised. That said, any opinions on the questions would be good.<br> =
<div><br> <div>Begin forwarded message:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"> <blockquote type=3D"cite">  <div>  =
<div style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><font style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: =
#000000" face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"3"><b>From: =
</b></font><font style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3">"Young, Gavin" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Gavin.Young@cw.com">Gavin.Young@cw.com</a>&gt;</font></div>=
  <div style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><font style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: =
#000000" face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"3"><b>Date: =
</b></font><font style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3">March 22, 2009 1:49:09 PM   PDT</font></div>  <div =
style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><font style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: =
#000000" face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"3"><b>To: =
</b></font><font style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fenner@fenron.com">fenner@fenron.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:christian.vogt@ericsson.com">christian.vogt@ericsson.com</a=
>&gt;,   &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fred.baker@cisco.com">fred.baker@cisco.com</a>&gt;, =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:kurtis@kurtis.pp.se">kurtis@kurtis.pp.se</a>&gt;, =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;, =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net">rbonica@juniper.net</a>&gt;, =
&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rdroms@cisco.com">rdroms@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net">jari.arkko@piuha.net</a>&gt;, =
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:townsley@cisco.com">townsley@cisco.com</a>&gt;</font></div>=
  <div style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><font style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; COLOR: =
#000000" face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#000000" size=3D"3"><b>Cc: =
</b></font><font style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" face=3D"Helvetica" =
size=3D"3">"David Allan" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dallan@nortel.com">dallan@nortel.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:david.j.thorne@bt.com">david.j.thorne@bt.com</a>&gt;</font>=
</div>  <div style=3D"MARGIN: 0px"><font style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica; =
COLOR: #000000" face=3D"Helvetica" color=3D"#000000" =
size=3D"3"><b>Subject: </b></font><font style=3D"FONT: 12px Helvetica" =
face=3D"Helvetica" size=3D"3"><b>Liaison from the   Broadband =
Forum</b></font></div>  <div style=3D"MIN-HEIGHT: 14px; MARGIN: =
0px"><br></div></div><o:smarttagtype name=3D"place" =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><o:smarttagtyp=
e name=3D"PersonName" =
namespaceuri=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags"><!--[if =
!mso]>  <STYLE>st1\:* { 	BEHAVIOR: url(#default#ieooui) } =
</STYLE> <![endif]-->  <style>@font-face { 	font-family: MS Mincho; =
} @font-face { 	font-family: @MS Mincho; } @page Section1 {size: 612.0pt =
792.0pt; margin: 72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; } P.MsoNormal { 	=
FONT-SIZE: 12pt; MARGIN: 0cm 0cm 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman" } =
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MARGIN-LEFT: 0cm; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0cm; FONT-FAMILY: "Times New Roman"; =
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windowtext; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; mso-style-type: personal-compose } =
DIV.Section1 { 	page: Section1 } </style> <!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> =
<o:shapedefaults v:ext=3D"edit" spidmax=3D"1026" /> =
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext=3D"edit"> =
 <o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" /> =
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->  <div lang=3D"EN-US" vlink=3D"purple" =
link=3D"blue">  <div class=3D"Section1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Dear   all,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Please find attached a liaison   from the Broadband =
Forum.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><st1:personname=
 w:st=3D"on"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: =
10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Gavin   =
Young</span></font></st1:personname><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial">Technical Committee   Chair<o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><font =
face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p>  <table class=3D"MsoNormalTable" =
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; =
BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-COLLAPSE: =
collapse" cellspacing=3D"0" cellpadding=3D"0" border=3D"1">    <tbody>   =
 <tr style=3D"page-break-inside: avoid">      <td style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: =
white 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; BORDER-TOP: white 1pt solid; =
PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0cm; BORDER-LEFT: white 1pt solid; =
WIDTH: 212.4pt; PADDING-TOP: 0cm; BORDER-BOTTOM: white 1pt solid" =
valign=3D"top" width=3D"283">        <h1 style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm 0cm =
0pt"><st1:personname w:st=3D"on"><b><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Gavin       =
  Young</span></font></b></st1:personname><font face=3D"Arial" =
size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></h1><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
class=3D"emailstyle16"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"2"><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Chief Architect C&amp;W         =
Access</span></font><o:p></o:p></span></p>        <h3 style=3D"MARGIN: =
0cm 0cm 0pt"><b><font face=3D"Arial" size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial">Cable&amp;Wireless         =
</span></font></b><font face=3D"Arial"><span style=3D"FONT-FAMILY: =
Arial"><o:p></o:p></span></font></h3>        <h4 style=3D"MARGIN: 0cm =
0cm 0pt"><b><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB"=
 style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><ns0:place =
w:endinsdate=3D"2009-03-22T20:37:00Z" w:endinsauthor=3D"Bulldog" =
w:insdate=3D"2009-03-22T20:37:00Z" w:insauthor=3D"Bulldog"><st1:place =
w:st=3D"on">Europe</st1:place></ns0:place>, Asia &amp;         =
US<o:p></o:p></span></font></b></h4><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
class=3D"emailstyle16"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"1"><span =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt">Direct Dial: +44 (0) 207 528         =
3597<o:p></o:p></span></font></span></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
class=3D"emailstyle16"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"1"><span =
lang=3D"FR" style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt">Mobile: +44 (0) 7748 937         =
007</span></font></span><font size=3D"1"><span lang=3D"FR" =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt"><br><span class=3D"emailstyle16">Email: <a =
href=3D"mailto:gavin.young@cw.com">gavin.young@cw.com</a><o:p></o:p></span=
></span></font></p><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span =
class=3D"emailstyle16"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"1"><span =
lang=3D"EN-GB" style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt"><a =
href=3D"http://www.cw.com/"><font color=3D"black"><span style=3D"COLOR: =
black">www.cw.com</span></font></a>         =
</span></font></span><b><font size=3D"2"><span lang=3D"EN-GB" =
style=3D"FONT-WEIGHT: bold; FONT-SIZE: 10pt; TEXT-TRANSFORM: =
uppercase"><o:p></o:p></span></font></b></p></td></tr></tbody></table><p =
class=3D"MsoNormal"><font face=3D"Times New Roman" size=3D"3"><span =
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><o:p></o:p></span></font></p></div><br>This =
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Subject: RE: Liaison from the Broadband Forum
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:22:17 -0400
Message-ID: <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA0D880DD9@crexc41p>
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Thread-Topic: Liaison from the Broadband Forum
thread-index: AcmugFnJ5eVhR6hITiiRkTng3Bb/gAAXjSXQ
References: <208D3722DBD8FD4C9E9D7075AA826421017BBDCC@GBCWSWIEM004.ad.plc.cwintra.com> <73C4B529-78A8-49AC-93C7-0CACF40C41FB@cisco.com> <35815C929B41D2479A224FE098A272270708D47F@ecamlmw720.eamcs.ericsson.se> <D201E72F-115D-4974-9BF8-D2F16C7CEBD3@cisco.com>
From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Fred Baker" <fred@cisco.com>, "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
CC: "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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I mentioned that I'm in the process of drafting IPv6 Residential Gateway
requirements for BBF, and expect to liaise this draft with IETF (v6ops),
once it's ready. It'll be a few weeks, yet, though, before I have the
first draft out to BBF. Thanks,

Barbara

=20

From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Fred Baker
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:52 PM
To: Alan Kavanagh
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: Liaison from the Broadband Forum

=20

Sorry, my error. Bark Stark tells me there is another one coming related
to the CPE.

=20

On Mar 26, 2009, at 6:11 PM, Alan Kavanagh wrote:





Just to clarify on the liason from the BBF. The issue is related to the
IP-Edge Node/BNG and not the CPE.

=20

=20

Alan K

=20

________________________________

From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Fred Baker
Sent: March 25, 2009 1:09 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Fwd: Liaison from the Broadband Forum

As I mentioned in the meeting Monday, we re in receipt of a liaison (a
letter) from the Broadband Forum. This relates to the work of several
working groups, and in ours is primarily related to the CPE draft. The
authors of that draft are in direct communication with the Forum and are
addressing the issues raised. That said, any opinions on the questions
would be good.

=20

Begin forwarded message:





From: "Young, Gavin" <Gavin.Young@cw.com>

Date: March 22, 2009 1:49:09 PM PDT

To: <fenner@fenron.com>, <christian.vogt@ericsson.com>,
<fred.baker@cisco.com>, <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>, <dromasca@avaya.com>,
<rbonica@juniper.net>, <rdroms@cisco.com>, <jari.arkko@piuha.net>,
<townsley@cisco.com>

Cc: "David Allan" <dallan@nortel.com>, <david.j.thorne@bt.com>

Subject: Liaison from the Broadband Forum

=20

Dear all,

Please find attached a liaison from the Broadband Forum.

Regards,

Gavin Young

Technical Committee Chair


Gavin Young


Chief Architect C&W Access


Cable&Wireless=20


Europe, Asia & US


Direct Dial: +44 (0) 207 528 3597

Mobile: +44 (0) 7748 937 007
Email: gavin.young@cw.com

www.cw.com <http://www.cw.com/> =20


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Cable and Wireless plc=20
Registered in England and Wales.Company Number 238525=20
Registered office: 3rd Floor, 26 Red Lion Square, London WC1R 4HQ

=20


*****

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to =
which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or =
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break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I mentioned that I&#8217;m in the process of drafting =
IPv6
Residential Gateway requirements for BBF, and expect to liaise this =
draft with
IETF (v6ops), once it&#8217;s ready. It&#8217;ll be a few weeks, yet, =
though,
before I have the first draft out to BBF. Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Barbara<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Fred
Baker<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Kavanagh<br>
<b>Cc:</b> IPv6 Operations<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Liaison from the Broadband =
Forum<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Sorry, my error. Bark Stark tells me there is =
another one
coming related to the CPE.<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Mar 26, 2009, at 6:11 PM, Alan Kavanagh =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Just to clarify on the liason from the BBF. The issue is =
related to
the IP-Edge Node/BNG and not the CPE.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Alan K</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a =
href=3D"mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org">owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org</a>
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org">mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Fred Baker<br>
<b>Sent:</b> March 25, 2009 1:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> IPv6 Operations<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Fwd: Liaison from the Broadband =
Forum</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>As I mentioned in the meeting Monday, we re in =
receipt of a
liaison (a letter) from the Broadband Forum. This relates to the work of
several working groups, and in ours is primarily related to the CPE =
draft. The
authors of that draft are in direct communication with the Forum and are
addressing the issues raised. That said, any opinions on the questions =
would be
good.<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Begin forwarded message:<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>From: </span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>&quot;Youn=
g,
Gavin&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Gavin.Young@cw.com">Gavin.Young@cw.com</a>&gt;</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Date: </span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>March
22, 2009 1:49:09 PM PDT</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>To: </span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>&lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:fenner@fenron.com">fenner@fenron.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:christian.vogt@ericsson.com">christian.vogt@ericsson.com</=
a>&gt;,
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fred.baker@cisco.com">fred.baker@cisco.com</a>&gt;, =
&lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:kurtis@kurtis.pp.se">kurtis@kurtis.pp.se</a>&gt;, &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net">rbonica@juniper.net</a>&gt;, &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:rdroms@cisco.com">rdroms@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net">jari.arkko@piuha.net</a>&gt;, =
&lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:townsley@cisco.com">townsley@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Cc: </span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>&quot;Davi=
d
Allan&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dallan@nortel.com">dallan@nortel.com</a>&gt;,
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:david.j.thorne@bt.com">david.j.thorne@bt.com</a>&gt;</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Subject: </span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Liaison from the Broadband =
Forum</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Dear
all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Please
find attached a liaison from the Broadband Forum.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regards,</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Gavin
Young</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Technical
Committee Chair</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0
 style=3D'border-collapse:collapse'>
 <tr style=3D'page-break-inside:avoid'>
  <td width=3D283 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:2.95in;border:solid white =
1.0pt;
  padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'>
  <h1 style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB
  style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Gavin =
Young</span><o:p></o:p></h1>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Demailstyle16><span lang=3DEN-GB
  style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Chief Architect C&amp;W =
Access</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
  <h3 style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB
  =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Cable&amp;Wir=
eless </span><o:p></o:p></h3>
  <h4 style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB
  style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Europe, Asia &amp; =
US</span><o:p></o:p></h4>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Demailstyle16><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt'>Direct
  Dial: +44 (0) 207 528 3597</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Demailstyle16><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:
  8.0pt'>Mobile: +44 (0) 7748 937 007</span></span><span lang=3DFR
  style=3D'font-size:8.0pt'><br>
  <span class=3Demailstyle16>Email: <a =
href=3D"mailto:gavin.young@cw.com">gavin.young@cw.com</a></span></span><o=
:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Demailstyle16><span lang=3DEN-GB
  style=3D'font-size:8.0pt'><a href=3D"http://www.cw.com/"><span =
style=3D'color:black'>www.cw.com</span></a>
  </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by the Cable &amp; Wireless =
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security system - powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a =
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 10:38:53 -0400
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From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
To: "Ole Troan" <otroan@employees.org>
Cc: <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
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> I think the model is to have a switch behind the CM so you wouldn't
need to congest the upstream.

And I presume that switch also supports MLD so that the MAC filters
don't let multicast streaming video through to the service provider?

In the case that a low-end switch does not support MLD, it's still a
better practice to have the CPE Router be the first hop into the home.

- Wes


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From: "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>, "Fred Baker" <fred@cisco.com>
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HI Barbara
=20
Im hoping you will first present it in BBF so we can all agree that on
what issues you have found before liaising this with v6ops.
=20
BR
Alan K

________________________________

From: Stark, Barbara [mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
Sent: March 27, 2009 9:22 AM
To: Fred Baker; Alan Kavanagh
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: RE: Liaison from the Broadband Forum



I mentioned that I'm in the process of drafting IPv6 Residential Gateway
requirements for BBF, and expect to liaise this draft with IETF (v6ops),
once it's ready. It'll be a few weeks, yet, though, before I have the
first draft out to BBF. Thanks,

Barbara

=20

From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Fred Baker
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:52 PM
To: Alan Kavanagh
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: Liaison from the Broadband Forum

=20

Sorry, my error. Bark Stark tells me there is another one coming related
to the CPE.

=20

On Mar 26, 2009, at 6:11 PM, Alan Kavanagh wrote:





Just to clarify on the liason from the BBF. The issue is related to the
IP-Edge Node/BNG and not the CPE.

=20

=20

Alan K

=20

________________________________

From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Fred Baker
Sent: March 25, 2009 1:09 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Fwd: Liaison from the Broadband Forum

As I mentioned in the meeting Monday, we re in receipt of a liaison (a
letter) from the Broadband Forum. This relates to the work of several
working groups, and in ours is primarily related to the CPE draft. The
authors of that draft are in direct communication with the Forum and are
addressing the issues raised. That said, any opinions on the questions
would be good.

=20

Begin forwarded message:





From: "Young, Gavin" <Gavin.Young@cw.com>

Date: March 22, 2009 1:49:09 PM PDT

To: <fenner@fenron.com>, <christian.vogt@ericsson.com>,
<fred.baker@cisco.com>, <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>, <dromasca@avaya.com>,
<rbonica@juniper.net>, <rdroms@cisco.com>, <jari.arkko@piuha.net>,
<townsley@cisco.com>

Cc: "David Allan" <dallan@nortel.com>, <david.j.thorne@bt.com>

Subject: Liaison from the Broadband Forum

=20

Dear all,

Please find attached a liaison from the Broadband Forum.

Regards,

Gavin Young

Technical Committee Chair


Gavin Young


Chief Architect C&W Access


Cable&Wireless=20


Europe, Asia & US


Direct Dial: +44 (0) 207 528 3597

Mobile: +44 (0) 7748 937 007
Email: gavin.young@cw.com

www.cw.com <http://www.cw.com/> =20


This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by the Cable & Wireless e-mail
security system - powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a
proactive managed e-mail security service, visit
http://www.cw.com/uk/emailprotection/=20

The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may also be
subject to legal privilege. It is intended only for the recipient(s)
named above. If you are not named above as a recipient, you must not
read, copy, disclose, forward or otherwise use the information contained
in this email. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify
the sender (whose contact details are above) immediately by reply e-mail
and delete the message and any attachments without retaining any copies.

Cable and Wireless plc=20
Registered in England and Wales.Company Number 238525=20
Registered office: 3rd Floor, 26 Red Lion Square, London WC1R 4HQ

=20

*****

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or
privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other
use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D834053815-27032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>HI Barbara</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D834053815-27032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D834053815-27032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Im hoping you will first present it in BBF so =
we can all=20
agree that on what issues you have found before liaising this with=20
v6ops.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D834053815-27032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D834053815-27032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>BR</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D834053815-27032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Alan K</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Stark, Barbara =
[mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
<BR><B>Sent:</B> March 27, 2009 9:22 AM<BR><B>To:</B> Fred Baker; Alan=20
Kavanagh<BR><B>Cc:</B> IPv6 Operations<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: Liaison =
from the=20
Broadband Forum<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">I=20
mentioned that I&#8217;m in the process of drafting IPv6 Residential =
Gateway=20
requirements for BBF, and expect to liaise this draft with IETF (v6ops), =
once=20
it&#8217;s ready. It&#8217;ll be a few weeks, yet, though, before I have =
the first draft out=20
to BBF. Thanks,<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">Barbara<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
#b5c4df 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 0in; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: =
medium none; PADDING-TOP: 3pt; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none">
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">=20
owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] <B>On Behalf =
Of=20
</B>Fred Baker<BR><B>Sent:</B> Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:52 =
PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
Alan Kavanagh<BR><B>Cc:</B> IPv6 Operations<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
Liaison from=20
the Broadband Forum<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Sorry, my error. Bark Stark tells me there is =
another one=20
coming related to the CPE.<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>On Mar 26, 2009, at 6:11 PM, Alan Kavanagh=20
wrote:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">Just to=20
clarify on the liason from the BBF. The issue is related to the IP-Edge =
Node/BNG=20
and not the CPE.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">Alan=20
K</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3Dcenter>
<HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2>
</DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> <A=20
href=3D"mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org">owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org</A> =
[<A=20
href=3D"mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org">mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org<=
/A>]=20
<B>On Behalf Of </B>Fred Baker<BR><B>Sent:</B> March 25, 2009 1:09=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> IPv6 Operations<BR><B>Subject:</B> Fwd: Liaison from =
the=20
Broadband Forum</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>As I mentioned in the meeting Monday, we re in =
receipt of a=20
liaison (a letter) from the Broadband Forum. This relates to the work of =
several=20
working groups, and in ours is primarily related to the CPE draft. The =
authors=20
of that draft are in direct communication with the Forum and are =
addressing the=20
issues raised. That said, any opinions on the questions would be=20
good.<o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>Begin forwarded message:<o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR><BR><o:p></o:p></P>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Helvetica','sans-serif'">From:=20
</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">"Young, =
Gavin"=20
&lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:Gavin.Young@cw.com">Gavin.Young@cw.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><o:p>=
</o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Helvetica','sans-serif'">Date:=20
</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">March =
22, 2009=20
1:49:09 PM PDT</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Helvetica','sans-serif'">To:=20
</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">&lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:fenner@fenron.com">fenner@fenron.com</A>&gt;, &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:christian.vogt@ericsson.com">christian.vogt@ericsson.com</=
A>&gt;,=20
&lt;<A =
href=3D"mailto:fred.baker@cisco.com">fred.baker@cisco.com</A>&gt;, =
&lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:kurtis@kurtis.pp.se">kurtis@kurtis.pp.se</A>&gt;, &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</A>&gt;, &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net">rbonica@juniper.net</A>&gt;, &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:rdroms@cisco.com">rdroms@cisco.com</A>&gt;, &lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net">jari.arkko@piuha.net</A>&gt;, =
&lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:townsley@cisco.com">townsley@cisco.com</A>&gt;</SPAN><o:p>=
</o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Helvetica','sans-serif'">Cc:=20
</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">"David =
Allan"=20
&lt;<A href=3D"mailto:dallan@nortel.com">dallan@nortel.com</A>&gt;, =
&lt;<A=20
href=3D"mailto:david.j.thorne@bt.com">david.j.thorne@bt.com</A>&gt;</SPAN=
><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Helvetica','sans-serif'">Subject:=20
</SPAN></B><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 9pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Helvetica','sans-serif'">Liaison =
from the=20
Broadband Forum</SPAN></B><o:p></o:p></P></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P></DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Dear=20
all,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Please find =
attached=20
a liaison from the Broadband Forum.</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">Regards,</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Gavin=20
Young</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Technical =
Committee=20
Chair</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<TABLE class=3DMsoNormalTable style=3D"BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" =
cellSpacing=3D0=20
cellPadding=3D0 border=3D0>
  <TBODY>
  <TR style=3D"page-break-inside: avoid">
    <TD=20
    style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: white 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.4pt; =
BORDER-TOP: white 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.4pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; =
BORDER-LEFT: white 1pt solid; WIDTH: 2.95in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; =
BORDER-BOTTOM: white 1pt solid"=20
    vAlign=3Dtop width=3D283>
      <H1 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial','sans-serif'">Gavin =

      Young</SPAN><o:p></o:p></H1>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3Demailstyle16><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB =

      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Chief Architect C&amp;W=20
      Access</SPAN></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
      <H3 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">Cable&amp;Wireless=20
      </SPAN><o:p></o:p></H3>
      <H4 style=3D"MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB=20
      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">Europe, Asia &amp; =
US</SPAN><o:p></o:p></H4>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3Demailstyle16><SPAN=20
      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt">Direct Dial: +44 (0) 207 528=20
      3597</SPAN></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3Demailstyle16><SPAN lang=3DFR=20
      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt">Mobile: +44 (0) 7748 937 =
007</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN=20
      lang=3DFR style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt"><BR><SPAN =
class=3Demailstyle16>Email: <A=20
      =
href=3D"mailto:gavin.young@cw.com">gavin.young@cw.com</A></SPAN></SPAN><o=
:p></o:p></P>
      <P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN class=3Demailstyle16><SPAN lang=3DEN-GB =

      style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 8pt"><A href=3D"http://www.cw.com/"><SPAN=20
      style=3D"COLOR: black">www.cw.com</SPAN></A>=20
  </SPAN></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><BR>This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by the =
Cable=20
&amp; Wireless e-mail security system - powered by MessageLabs. For more =

information on a proactive managed e-mail security service, visit <A=20
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<BR><BR>The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may =
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subject to legal privilege. It is intended only for the recipient(s) =
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you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender (whose =
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details are above) immediately by reply e-mail and delete the message =
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<BR>Registered in England and Wales.Company Number 238525 <BR>Registered =
office:=20
3rd Floor, 26 Red Lion Square, London WC1R=20
4HQ<o:p></o:p></P></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
<P =
class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P></DIV></DIV><!--[object_id=3D#att.=
com#]-->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>*****</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DTahoma color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The information =
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intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may =
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Subject: RE: Liaison from the Broadband Forum
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:06:49 -0400
Message-ID: <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA0D880EB8@crexc41p>
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From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>, "Fred Baker" <fred@cisco.com>
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Well, yeah! I can't liaise anything from BBF without presenting it to
BBF first and getting agreement that it's ok to liaise. That's standard
process. I will properly follow all BBF procedures.

Barbara

=20

From: Alan Kavanagh [mailto:alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 11:47 AM
To: Stark, Barbara; Fred Baker
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: RE: Liaison from the Broadband Forum

=20

HI Barbara

=20

Im hoping you will first present it in BBF so we can all agree that on
what issues you have found before liaising this with v6ops.

=20

BR

Alan K

=20

________________________________

From: Stark, Barbara [mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
Sent: March 27, 2009 9:22 AM
To: Fred Baker; Alan Kavanagh
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: RE: Liaison from the Broadband Forum

I mentioned that I'm in the process of drafting IPv6 Residential Gateway
requirements for BBF, and expect to liaise this draft with IETF (v6ops),
once it's ready. It'll be a few weeks, yet, though, before I have the
first draft out to BBF. Thanks,

Barbara

=20

From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Fred Baker
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:52 PM
To: Alan Kavanagh
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: Liaison from the Broadband Forum

=20

Sorry, my error. Bark Stark tells me there is another one coming related
to the CPE.

=20

On Mar 26, 2009, at 6:11 PM, Alan Kavanagh wrote:

=20

Just to clarify on the liason from the BBF. The issue is related to the
IP-Edge Node/BNG and not the CPE.

=20

=20

Alan K

=20

________________________________

From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Fred Baker
Sent: March 25, 2009 1:09 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Fwd: Liaison from the Broadband Forum

As I mentioned in the meeting Monday, we re in receipt of a liaison (a
letter) from the Broadband Forum. This relates to the work of several
working groups, and in ours is primarily related to the CPE draft. The
authors of that draft are in direct communication with the Forum and are
addressing the issues raised. That said, any opinions on the questions
would be good.

=20

Begin forwarded message:

=20

From: "Young, Gavin" <Gavin.Young@cw.com>

Date: March 22, 2009 1:49:09 PM PDT

To: <fenner@fenron.com>, <christian.vogt@ericsson.com>,
<fred.baker@cisco.com>, <kurtis@kurtis.pp.se>, <dromasca@avaya.com>,
<rbonica@juniper.net>, <rdroms@cisco.com>, <jari.arkko@piuha.net>,
<townsley@cisco.com>

Cc: "David Allan" <dallan@nortel.com>, <david.j.thorne@bt.com>

Subject: Liaison from the Broadband Forum

=20

Dear all,

Please find attached a liaison from the Broadband Forum.

Regards,

Gavin Young

Technical Committee Chair


Gavin Young


Chief Architect C&W Access


Cable&Wireless=20


Europe, Asia & US


Direct Dial: +44 (0) 207 528 3597

Mobile: +44 (0) 7748 937 007
Email: gavin.young@cw.com

www.cw.com <http://www.cw.com/> =20


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Registered in England and Wales.Company Number 238525=20
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=20

*****

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
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<body lang=3DEN-US link=3Dblue vlink=3Dpurple style=3D'WORD-WRAP: =
break-word;
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space'>

<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Well, yeah! I can&#8217;t liaise anything from BBF =
without
presenting it to BBF first and getting agreement that it&#8217;s ok to =
liaise.
That&#8217;s standard process. I will properly follow all BBF =
procedures.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Barbara<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Alan =
Kavanagh
[mailto:alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 27, 2009 11:47 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stark, Barbara; Fred Baker<br>
<b>Cc:</b> IPv6 Operations<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Liaison from the Broadband =
Forum<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>HI Barbara</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Im hoping you will first present it in BBF so we can all =
agree that
on what issues you have found before liaising this with =
v6ops.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>BR</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Alan K</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stark, Barbara =
[mailto:bs7652@att.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> March 27, 2009 9:22 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Fred Baker; Alan Kavanagh<br>
<b>Cc:</b> IPv6 Operations<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: Liaison from the Broadband =
Forum</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I mentioned that I&#8217;m in the process of drafting =
IPv6
Residential Gateway requirements for BBF, and expect to liaise this =
draft with
IETF (v6ops), once it&#8217;s ready. It&#8217;ll be a few weeks, yet, =
though,
before I have the first draft out to BBF. Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Barbara<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>
owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] <b>On Behalf =
Of </b>Fred
Baker<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, March 26, 2009 9:52 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Kavanagh<br>
<b>Cc:</b> IPv6 Operations<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: Liaison from the Broadband =
Forum<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Sorry, my error. Bark Stark tells me there is =
another one
coming related to the CPE.<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>On Mar 26, 2009, at 6:11 PM, Alan Kavanagh =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Just to clarify on the liason from the BBF. The issue is =
related to
the IP-Edge Node/BNG and not the CPE.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Alan K</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> <a =
href=3D"mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org">owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org</a>
[<a =
href=3D"mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org">mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org<=
/a>]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Fred Baker<br>
<b>Sent:</b> March 25, 2009 1:09 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> IPv6 Operations<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Fwd: Liaison from the Broadband =
Forum</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>As I mentioned in the meeting Monday, we re in =
receipt of a
liaison (a letter) from the Broadband Forum. This relates to the work of
several working groups, and in ours is primarily related to the CPE =
draft. The
authors of that draft are in direct communication with the Forum and are
addressing the issues raised. That said, any opinions on the questions =
would be
good.<o:p></o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Begin forwarded message:<o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal =
style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>From: </span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>&quot;Youn=
g,
Gavin&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Gavin.Young@cw.com">Gavin.Young@cw.com</a>&gt;</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Date: </span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>March
22, 2009 1:49:09 PM PDT</span><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>To: </span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>&lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:fenner@fenron.com">fenner@fenron.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:christian.vogt@ericsson.com">christian.vogt@ericsson.com</=
a>&gt;,
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:fred.baker@cisco.com">fred.baker@cisco.com</a>&gt;, =
&lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:kurtis@kurtis.pp.se">kurtis@kurtis.pp.se</a>&gt;, &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:dromasca@avaya.com">dromasca@avaya.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:rbonica@juniper.net">rbonica@juniper.net</a>&gt;, &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:rdroms@cisco.com">rdroms@cisco.com</a>&gt;, &lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:jari.arkko@piuha.net">jari.arkko@piuha.net</a>&gt;, =
&lt;<a
href=3D"mailto:townsley@cisco.com">townsley@cisco.com</a>&gt;</span><o:p>=
</o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Cc: </span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>&quot;Davi=
d
Allan&quot; &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:dallan@nortel.com">dallan@nortel.com</a>&gt;,
&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:david.j.thorne@bt.com">david.j.thorne@bt.com</a>&gt;</span=
><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:"Helvetica","sans-serif";
color:black'>Subject: </span></b><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:9.0pt;font-family:
"Helvetica","sans-serif"'>Liaison from the Broadband =
Forum</span></b><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

</div>

<div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Dear
all,</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Please
find attached a liaison from the Broadband Forum.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Regards,</spa=
n><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Gavin
Young</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Technical
Committee Chair</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<table class=3DMsoNormalTable border=3D0 cellspacing=3D0 cellpadding=3D0
 style=3D'border-collapse:collapse'>
 <tr style=3D'page-break-inside:avoid'>
  <td width=3D283 valign=3Dtop style=3D'width:2.95in;border:solid white =
1.0pt;
  padding:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt'>
  <h1 style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB
  style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Gavin =
Young</span><o:p></o:p></h1>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Demailstyle16><span lang=3DEN-GB
  style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Chief Architect C&amp;W =
Access</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
  <h3 style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB
  =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Cable&amp;Wir=
eless </span><o:p></o:p></h3>
  <h4 style=3D'margin:0in;margin-bottom:.0001pt'><span lang=3DEN-GB
  style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>Europe, Asia &amp; =
US</span><o:p></o:p></h4>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Demailstyle16><span =
style=3D'font-size:8.0pt'>Direct
  Dial: +44 (0) 207 528 3597</span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Demailstyle16><span lang=3DFR =
style=3D'font-size:
  8.0pt'>Mobile: +44 (0) 7748 937 007</span></span><span lang=3DFR
  style=3D'font-size:8.0pt'><br>
  <span class=3Demailstyle16>Email: <a =
href=3D"mailto:gavin.young@cw.com">gavin.young@cw.com</a></span></span><o=
:p></o:p></p>
  <p class=3DMsoNormal><span class=3Demailstyle16><span lang=3DEN-GB
  style=3D'font-size:8.0pt'><a href=3D"http://www.cw.com/"><span =
style=3D'color:black'>www.cw.com</span></a>
  </span></span><o:p></o:p></p>
  </td>
 </tr>
</table>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><br>
This e-mail has been scanned for viruses by the Cable &amp; Wireless =
e-mail
security system - powered by MessageLabs. For more information on a =
proactive
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The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may also be
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Registered in England and Wales.Company Number 238525 <br>
Registered office: 3rd Floor, 26 Red Lion Square, London WC1R =
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</div>

</div>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

</div>

<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:10:38 -0400
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To: "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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From: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 09:24:14 -0700
References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com> <30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com> <925FA39D-42FC-4E3B-99C7-FA6E0DC7E0B7@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C8803A@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <2bbba3c10903261414l315aa210s7ac1cc050d113d07@mail.gmail.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC74A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com>
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Mar 27, 2009, at 07:38, Wes Beebee (wbeebee) wrote:
>
> In the case that a low-end switch does not support MLD, it's still a  
> better practice to have the CPE Router be the first hop into the home.

Yes, but most people setting up consumer gear in their home do not  
read IETF Best Current Practices RFCs before trying to plug the cables  
into the jacks on the sides of their boxes where the plugs more or  
less fit without hammering on them with whatever hard object they find  
at hand.

Some vendors of consumer gear seem to feel the need to make the  
process of connecting their various appliances together to comprise a  
functioning network into a university dissertation defense.  I think  
the more successful ones take a more subtle approach: they try very  
hard to make it as difficult as possible to connect devices together  
into a network that doesn't work.  When the links between the nodes  
are all CAT-5 cables with RJ-45 plugs on each end, that problem is non- 
trivial and shouldn't be hand-waved away as not worthy of attention.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 27 09:28:23 2009
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 12:28:02 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>, "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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Barbara,

With your scenarios below, may I ask what are the things that the SPs
currently don't do well with IPv4? I see one problem mentioned - static
routes.  What are other problems?  Also, what node are you talking about
when you say "static routes in routing table"?  The host or the home
router?  I think you mean host, but still it good to make such things
clear.  If we get a list of all things that SP currently don't do well,
we can analyze the problems and see what we can do.  The scenarios you
have shown below are mostly already described in section 5 of RFC 4191.
That may lead one to think, RFC 4191 is a good match for such scenarios
and the scenarios' problems, but note one key feature of RFC 4191.  A SP
or a home user still has to configure the routing information on the CPE
router(s) before the routing is propagated to hosts in the home.  If
provisioning automation was an expectation in IPv6 over IPv4, RFC 4191
does not buy one that.  That is a separate orthogonal problem and SPs
have to prioritize it over other problems.  IMHO, more important
problems are to help host perform correct data forwarding in presence of
multiple routes available in the home. =20

Hemant

-----Original Message-----
From: Stark, Barbara [mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 3:38 PM
To: Hemant Singh (shemant); james woodyatt; IPv6 Operations
Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

> I think we have to let the Broadband forum
> complete their IPv6 standards and then depending upon what they do, we
> can revisit this RFC 4191 question. =20

The capabilities described in RFC 4191 are certainly something the BBF
is looking at, and it would be interesting to hear IETF thoughts on the
cases that it might handle.=20

Here are some possible scenarios:
(1) CPE Router has multiple WAN connections. Let's say one is a
"default" connection that goes to the Internet, while the other is a
connection to a walled garden, or a corporate network, or such. The CPE
router gets prefixes delegated from each, and makes those prefixes
available on its LAN. Is it appropriate / useful for the secondary
network to use RFC 4191 to state which prefixes are behind it? In this
case, the CPE router would need to put that information in its routing
table. Should the CPE Router also use RFC 4191 to tell devices on its
LAN that it supports "default" routes plus these secondary prefixes?

(2) CPE Router has a wired WAN connection and a backup wireless WAN
connection. Both support "default" connectivity. RFC 4191 could be used
by the wireless connection to state that it's less preferred. A better
solution would probably be to just configure the CPE router with that
knowledge. The wireless network isn't the right place to house the
knowledge of whether or not it's preferred. I don't think RFC 4191 would
be used well here, but it's something to think about.

(3) The home has multiple connections through multiple routers. Perhaps
one of these routers is like the router in (1) above, while another
router also supplies a "default" connection, and yet a 3rd supplies a
connection to a walled garden service (maybe it does this by tunneling
over one of the other connections -- if so, this should be invisible to
the hosts in the LAN). Each router advertises prefix(es) to the LAN. It
makes sense for the router to also advertise which prefixes it can
route, especially the walled garden prefixes, which may not be
accessible through any other connection.

RIPng (or other protocols like it) doesn't really seem to be the right
answer here. As mentioned in the CPE Router draft, it has scalability
concerns in the access network. And it seems kind of weird in the LAN.
But using RFC 4191 to supply route info in the RA would be pretty easy.
This route info is fairly static.

By the way -- these are all real scenarios. People and service providers
do these things. They just don't always do them well, today. (1) is
particularly common in IPv4, and is handled through static routing table
entries.
Barbara


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Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 06:04:29 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
CC: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>,  "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On 2009-03-28 05:10, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:
> Brain and others,
> 
>> If the broadband forum people don't want a use case with direct CPE-CPE
>> communication, that's their choice, but we shouldn't artificially
>> restrict this in the base spec for CPEs, IMHO. We write IPv6 basic
>> standards; they apply them to their use cases.
> 
> For past two days or so, we couldn't understand what scenario was James talking about.  I and more folks thought one home to another home communications were being discussed but actually what James was looking at was a single home and this home's networking.  We also had a disconnect with James because it wasn't told to us that there was a hub sitting behind the broadband modem and then a CPE Rtr is behind the hub.  We assumed the CPE Rtr was directly connected to the broadband modem. Now that all things are clarified and we know it's one single home being discussed, we will look into common scenarios that Service Providers have in mind and take it from there.

Yes, but if we conclude that it's desirable in general for
CPE routers to behave like routers on their upstream link,
AND if some ISPs don't want that, it should be a configuration
issue to switch such behaviour on or off. IMHO.

   Brian


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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On Fri, 27 Mar 2009, james woodyatt wrote:

> Some vendors of consumer gear seem to feel the need to make the process 
> of connecting their various appliances together to comprise a 
> functioning network into a university dissertation defense.  I think the 
> more successful ones take a more subtle approach: they try very hard to 
> make it as difficult as possible to connect devices together into a 
> network that doesn't work. When the links between the nodes are all 
> CAT-5 cables with RJ-45 plugs on each end, that problem is non-trivial 
> and shouldn't be hand-waved away as not worthy of attention.

The solutions I have seen (and I think makes most sense) is to have a WAN 
port on the home device. This is the way it works with most NAT routers 
today, they usually have a single WAN port and then for instance, 4 LAN 
ports.

I know some providers who offer 5 IPv4 addresses per customer and who 
support customer L2 switches being connected, with the downside that all 
traffic between these devices usually end up going via the ISP (because 
local-proxy-arp is used for security reasons). For this reason, most 
people hook up a NAT device anyway, to keep the speed up within their 
home.

So, even though I agree that there should be no artificial limitations 
imposed, the recommendation for the most scalable solution would be to 
only support single IPv6 address on the WAN side of the customer device, 
and require it to do routing and support DHCPv6-PD. This saves TCAM 
resources on the ISP device which otherwise have to keep adjacancy 
information for potentially a large number of customer devices.

My scenario above is what I envision for ETTH (also VDSL2 and other 
ethernet framed alternatives).

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se


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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>, "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
CC: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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> From: Hemant Singh (shemant) [mailto:shemant@cisco.com]

> With your scenarios below, may I ask what are the things that the SPs
> currently don't do well with IPv4? I see one problem mentioned -
static
> routes.  What are other problems? =20
<barbara> Static route configuration is a problem for scenario (1). It's
not that hard to do, but a simple automated method (like getting route
info from the RA of the access network router) would be preferable. In
scenario (3), the problem we see in IPv4 is that most hosts presented
with multiple DHCP servers off the same physical interface will just
take the first they see and ignore the rest. And these hosts don't know
how to figure out what to route to which "IP Gateway". There's really no
automated way in common IPv4 "home" usage to support multiple routers.
Sure, really knowledgeable people can do it, but not my brother or
neighbor. But they would like to be able to do it.</barbara>

> Also, what node are you talking about
> when you say "static routes in routing table"?  The host or the home
> router?  I think you mean host, but still it good to make such things
> clear. =20
<barbara> No, I meant the router. The SP has no ability to statically
configure the hosts, just the SP router. </barbara>

> If we get a list of all things that SP currently don't do well,
> we can analyze the problems and see what we can do.  The scenarios you
> have shown below are mostly already described in section 5 of RFC
4191.
> That may lead one to think, RFC 4191 is a good match for such
scenarios
> and the scenarios' problems, but note one key feature of RFC 4191.  A
> SP
> or a home user still has to configure the routing information on the
> CPE
> router(s) before the routing is propagated to hosts in the home.  If
> provisioning automation was an expectation in IPv6 over IPv4, RFC 4191
> does not buy one that. =20
<barbara> Actually, RFC 4191 does help. That's why, in scenario (1), I
suggested the CPE router be able to accept routing info from the
received (on the WAN) RA. If the walled garden access network router
sends specific route info in RA (RFC 4191), then the CPE router can
receive that and put it in its routing table, and also send that route
info downstream to hosts, using RA (RFC 4191). Pure automation of the
process, for CPE Routers and hosts. </barbara>

Thanks,
Barbara
=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Stark, Barbara [mailto:bs7652@att.com]
> Sent: Thursday, March 26, 2009 3:38 PM
> To: Hemant Singh (shemant); james woodyatt; IPv6 Operations
> Cc: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
> Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
>=20
> > I think we have to let the Broadband forum
> > complete their IPv6 standards and then depending upon what they do,
> we
> > can revisit this RFC 4191 question.
>=20
> The capabilities described in RFC 4191 are certainly something the BBF
> is looking at, and it would be interesting to hear IETF thoughts on
the
> cases that it might handle.
>=20
> Here are some possible scenarios:
> (1) CPE Router has multiple WAN connections. Let's say one is a
> "default" connection that goes to the Internet, while the other is a
> connection to a walled garden, or a corporate network, or such. The
CPE
> router gets prefixes delegated from each, and makes those prefixes
> available on its LAN. Is it appropriate / useful for the secondary
> network to use RFC 4191 to state which prefixes are behind it? In this
> case, the CPE router would need to put that information in its routing
> table. Should the CPE Router also use RFC 4191 to tell devices on its
> LAN that it supports "default" routes plus these secondary prefixes?
>=20
> (2) CPE Router has a wired WAN connection and a backup wireless WAN
> connection. Both support "default" connectivity. RFC 4191 could be
used
> by the wireless connection to state that it's less preferred. A better
> solution would probably be to just configure the CPE router with that
> knowledge. The wireless network isn't the right place to house the
> knowledge of whether or not it's preferred. I don't think RFC 4191
> would
> be used well here, but it's something to think about.
>=20
> (3) The home has multiple connections through multiple routers.
Perhaps
> one of these routers is like the router in (1) above, while another
> router also supplies a "default" connection, and yet a 3rd supplies a
> connection to a walled garden service (maybe it does this by tunneling
> over one of the other connections -- if so, this should be invisible
to
> the hosts in the LAN). Each router advertises prefix(es) to the LAN.
It
> makes sense for the router to also advertise which prefixes it can
> route, especially the walled garden prefixes, which may not be
> accessible through any other connection.
>=20
> RIPng (or other protocols like it) doesn't really seem to be the right
> answer here. As mentioned in the CPE Router draft, it has scalability
> concerns in the access network. And it seems kind of weird in the LAN.
> But using RFC 4191 to supply route info in the RA would be pretty
easy.
> This route info is fairly static.
>=20
> By the way -- these are all real scenarios. People and service
> providers
> do these things. They just don't always do them well, today. (1) is
> particularly common in IPv4, and is handled through static routing
> table
> entries.
> Barbara

*****

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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8F4@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <943C3A80-979F-4289-BA20-C17D20861111@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231557i618926bavff56f877c18eeee9@mail.gmail.com> <6161A3E1-DCD1-467F-9AD5-0A15821413A2@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com> <30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com> <925FA39D-42FC-4E3B-99C7-FA6E0DC7E0B7@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87D9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <49CBB0C9	.40908@gmail.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C883A6@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <49CD071D.6080405@gmai l.com>
From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
CC: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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> Yes, but if we conclude that it's desirable in general for
> CPE routers to behave like routers on their upstream link,
> AND if some ISPs don't want that, it should be a configuration
> issue to switch such behaviour on or off. IMHO.
>=20
>    Brian

So, say something like "If the CPE Router is capable of behaving like a =
router on its upstream link, it MUST be possible to disable this =
behavior."?

This avoids the question of whether or not it's desirable (which we =
could probably argue endlessly), doesn't recommend the behavior, doesn't =
forbid the behavior, but makes sure the CPE Router can behave =
appropriately, when the WAN interface is connected to a service provider =
access network.
Barbara

*****

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to =
which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or =
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use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by =
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you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the =
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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Date: Sat, 28 Mar 2009 06:45:43 +1300
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
CC: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>,  james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>,  "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On 2009-03-28 06:37, Stark, Barbara wrote:
>> Yes, but if we conclude that it's desirable in general for
>> CPE routers to behave like routers on their upstream link,
>> AND if some ISPs don't want that, it should be a configuration
>> issue to switch such behaviour on or off. IMHO.
>>
>>    Brian
> 
> So, say something like "If the CPE Router is capable of behaving like a router on its upstream link, it MUST be possible to disable this behavior."?
> 
> This avoids the question of whether or not it's desirable (which we could probably argue endlessly), doesn't recommend the behavior, doesn't forbid the behavior, but makes sure the CPE Router can behave appropriately, when the WAN interface is connected to a service provider access network.
> Barbara

Agreed, and that is compatible with the RIPng text that Hemant just quoted.

   Brian


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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:40:09 -0400
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <0DD150BF-77BC-4527-BD35-9202F94496E0@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8C2@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <95F8ED8E-261B-437C-8063-223D345C364B@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8F4@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <943C3A80-979F-4289-BA20-C17D20861111@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231557i618926bavff56f877c18eeee9@mail.gmail.com> <6161A3E1-DCD1-467F-9AD5-0A15821413A2@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com> <30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com> <925FA39D-42FC-4E3B-99C7-FA6E0DC7E0B7@apple.com>
From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
To: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
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The new text for MSR's is as follows:

"8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.  Small
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have
configurable routing tables.  The CPE Router can communicate More
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific
prefixes configured through manual configuration.  Advertisement of MSRs
through RAs is turned off by default."

- Wes

-----Original Message-----
From: james woodyatt [mailto:jhw@apple.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:
>
> Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, now=20
> that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.  I am=20
> only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has been=20
> received on the WAN link with L=3D1.  No other cases are interesting.

I take it back.  It's interesting in the other cases as well.  Two CPE
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with MSR
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service provider
have PIO options in them.  As they should.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 15:56:47 -0400
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <0DD150BF-77BC-4527-BD35-9202F94496E0@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8C2@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <95F8ED8E-261B-437C-8063-223D345C364B@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8F4@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <943C3A80-979F-4289-BA20-C17D20861111@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231557i618926bavff56f877c18eeee9@mail.gmail.com> <6161A3E1-DCD1-467F-9AD5-0A15821413A2@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com> <30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com> <925FA39D-42FC-4E3B-99C7-FA6E0DC7E0B7@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A 57138047 A0301FBC91A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com>
From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>, "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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James,=20

Please note, we do not recommend that MSR be used to learn routes
between two routers in the home.  If there is more than one router in
the home, then we recommend RIPng be used.  Hopefully the text below is
clear that only when small consumer embedded devices exist in the home
and such devices multi-homed, then MSR use is recommended to be enabled
on the CPE Rtr.  Also

We got convinced because we found a use case where an IPhone is in the
home wireless LAN and also connected to AT&T's cellular network where
the phone downloads its favorite apps from an AT&T server but for other
access the phone may use the home wireless networks provided on a CPE
Router connected to the broadband modem.

Hemant

-----Original Message-----
From: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)=20
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 3:40 PM
To: james woodyatt; IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant)
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

The new text for MSR's is as follows:

"8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.  Small
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have
configurable routing tables.  The CPE Router can communicate More
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific
prefixes configured through manual configuration.  Advertisement of MSRs
through RAs is turned off by default."

- Wes

-----Original Message-----
From: james woodyatt [mailto:jhw@apple.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:
>
> Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, now=20
> that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.  I am=20
> only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has been=20
> received on the WAN link with L=3D1.  No other cases are interesting.

I take it back.  It's interesting in the other cases as well.  Two CPE
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with MSR
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service provider
have PIO options in them.  As they should.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 27 13:10:40 2009
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 13:09:55 -0700
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From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>, "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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Hemant,
=20
> [8.2.  Optional RIPng Support
> The CPE Router may support RIPng routing protocol [RFC2080] (Malkin,
G. and R. Minnear, "RIPng for
> IPv6," January 1997.) so that RIPng operates between the CPE Router
and the Service Provider network.
> RIPng has scaling and security implications for the Service Provider
network where one Service
> Provider router may terminate several tens of thousands of CPE
routers. However, RIPng does provide
> one solution from the CPE Router to the Service Provider network for
prefix route injection.]

I don't see it as necessary to run RIPng when the CPEs act
as routers. If we are willing to allow the CPEs to establish
automatic IPv6-in-IPv4 tunnels across the provider network
to a default IPv6 router, then the CPEs can access the IPv6
Internet. If the default router knows of a more direct path
to the destination within the provider network, it can also
send an ICMP redirect. So, there is no IPv6 routing protocol
but the tens of thousands of customers still get to configure
their CPE devices as IPv6 routers.

This is exactly the VET model.

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com
=20
>=20
> Hemant
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 1:04 PM
> To: Hemant Singh (shemant)
> Cc: james woodyatt; IPv6 Operations; Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
> Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
>=20
> On 2009-03-28 05:10, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:
> > Brain and others,
> >
> >> If the broadband forum people don't want a use case with direct
CPE-CPE
> >> communication, that's their choice, but we shouldn't artificially
> >> restrict this in the base spec for CPEs, IMHO. We write IPv6 basic
> >> standards; they apply them to their use cases.
> >
> > For past two days or so, we couldn't understand what scenario was
James talking about.  I and more
> folks thought one home to another home communications were being
discussed but actually what James
> was looking at was a single home and this home's networking.  We also
had a disconnect with James
> because it wasn't told to us that there was a hub sitting behind the
broadband modem and then a CPE
> Rtr is behind the hub.  We assumed the CPE Rtr was directly connected
to the broadband modem. Now
> that all things are clarified and we know it's one single home being
discussed, we will look into
> common scenarios that Service Providers have in mind and take it from
there.
>=20
> Yes, but if we conclude that it's desirable in general for
> CPE routers to behave like routers on their upstream link,
> AND if some ISPs don't want that, it should be a configuration
> issue to switch such behaviour on or off. IMHO.
>=20
>    Brian


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Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 16:44:16 -0400
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From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: <wbeebee@cisco.com>, <jhw@apple.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
CC: <shemant@cisco.com>
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It's not clear to me why manual configuration is specified as *the* way =
to configure these routes (again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the access =
network to the CPE Rtr WAN interface as a way to configure the routes). =
I propose that if a CPE Rtr gets such routes from the WAN that it =
automatically put those same route prefixes in its LAN RAs. In which =
case it would not be off by default, but on by default (it would =
automatically send specific route info if it has specific route info to =
send).=20
Barbara

----- Original Message -----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org <owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant) <shemant@cisco.com>
Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

The new text for MSR's is as follows:

"8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.  Small
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have
configurable routing tables.  The CPE Router can communicate More
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific
prefixes configured through manual configuration.  Advertisement of MSRs
through RAs is turned off by default."

- Wes

-----Original Message-----
From: james woodyatt [mailto:jhw@apple.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:
>
> Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, now=20
> that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.  I am=20
> only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has been=20
> received on the WAN link with L=3D1.  No other cases are interesting.

I take it back.  It's interesting in the other cases as well.  Two CPE
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with MSR
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service provider
have PIO options in them.  As they should.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




*****

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<P><FONT SIZE=3D2>It's not clear to me why manual configuration is =
specified as *the* way to configure these routes (again, I see RA (RFC =
4191) from the access network to the CPE Rtr WAN interface as a way to =
configure the routes). I propose that if a CPE Rtr gets such routes from =
the WAN that it automatically put those same route prefixes in its LAN =
RAs. In which case it would not be off by default, but on by default (it =
would automatically send specific route info if it has specific route =
info to send).<BR>
Barbara<BR>
<BR>
----- Original Message -----<BR>
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org &lt;owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<BR>
To: james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;; IPv6 Operations =
&lt;v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<BR>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant) &lt;shemant@cisco.com&gt;<BR>
Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009<BR>
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments<BR>
<BR>
The new text for MSR's is as follows:<BR>
<BR>
&quot;8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)<BR>
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.&nbsp; =
Small<BR>
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have<BR>
configurable routing tables.&nbsp; The CPE Router can communicate =
More<BR>
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a<BR>
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific<BR>
prefixes configured through manual configuration.&nbsp; Advertisement of =
MSRs<BR>
through RAs is turned off by default.&quot;<BR>
<BR>
- Wes<BR>
<BR>
-----Original Message-----<BR>
From: james woodyatt [<A =
HREF=3D"mailto:jhw@apple.com">mailto:jhw@apple.com</A>]<BR>
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM<BR>
To: IPv6 Operations<BR>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)<BR>
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments<BR>
<BR>
On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:<BR>
&gt;<BR>
&gt; Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, =
now<BR>
&gt; that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router =
draft.&nbsp; I am<BR>
&gt; only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has =
been<BR>
&gt; received on the WAN link with L=3D1.&nbsp; No other cases are =
interesting.<BR>
<BR>
I take it back.&nbsp; It's interesting in the other cases as well.&nbsp; =
Two CPE<BR>
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with =
MSR<BR>
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service =
provider<BR>
have PIO options in them.&nbsp; As they should.<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
--<BR>
james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;<BR>
member of technical staff, communications engineering<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
<BR>
</FONT>
</P>

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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>, <jhw@apple.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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In the Abstract, RFC 4191 says explicitly:
=20
"The preference values and specific routes advertised to hosts require
administrative configuration; they are not automatically derived from
routing tables."
=20
Further, throughout RFC 4191, they give examples that illustrate why
they make this statement.  The problems (briefly) are stability of
routes, more than 17 routes getting advertised (too many routes), etc.=20
=20
- Wes

________________________________

From: Stark, Barbara [mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 4:44 PM
To: Wes Beebee (wbeebee); jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments



It's not clear to me why manual configuration is specified as *the* way
to configure these routes (again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the access
network to the CPE Rtr WAN interface as a way to configure the routes).
I propose that if a CPE Rtr gets such routes from the WAN that it
automatically put those same route prefixes in its LAN RAs. In which
case it would not be off by default, but on by default (it would
automatically send specific route info if it has specific route info to
send).
Barbara

----- Original Message -----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org <owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant) <shemant@cisco.com>
Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

The new text for MSR's is as follows:

"8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.  Small
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have
configurable routing tables.  The CPE Router can communicate More
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific
prefixes configured through manual configuration.  Advertisement of MSRs
through RAs is turned off by default."

- Wes

-----Original Message-----
From: james woodyatt [mailto:jhw@apple.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:
>
> Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, now
> that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.  I am
> only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has been
> received on the WAN link with L=3D1.  No other cases are interesting.

I take it back.  It's interesting in the other cases as well.  Two CPE
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with MSR
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service provider
have PIO options in them.  As they should.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering





*****

The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or
privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other
use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by
persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If
you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the
material from all computers. GA622


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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D291395220-27032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>In the Abstract, RFC 4191 says=20
explicitly:</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D291395220-27032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D291395220-27032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>"The preference values and specific routes =
advertised to=20
hosts require administrative configuration; they are not automatically =
derived=20
from routing tables."</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D291395220-27032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D291395220-27032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Further, throughout RFC 4191, they give =
examples that=20
illustrate why they make this statement.&nbsp; The problems =
(briefly)&nbsp;are=20
stability of routes, more than 17 routes getting advertised (too many =
routes),=20
etc.&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D291395220-27032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D291395220-27032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>- Wes</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Stark, Barbara =
[mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Friday, March 27, 2009 4:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Wes Beebee =

(wbeebee); jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> Hemant Singh=20
(shemant)<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04=20
comments<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P><FONT size=3D2>It's not clear to me why manual configuration is =
specified as=20
*the* way to configure these routes (again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the =
access=20
network to the CPE Rtr WAN interface as a way to configure the routes). =
I=20
propose that if a CPE Rtr gets such routes from the WAN that it =
automatically=20
put those same route prefixes in its LAN RAs. In which case it would not =
be off=20
by default, but on by default (it would automatically send specific =
route info=20
if it has specific route info to send).<BR>Barbara<BR><BR>----- Original =
Message=20
-----<BR>From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org =
&lt;owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<BR>To:=20
james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;; IPv6 Operations=20
&lt;v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<BR>Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant)=20
&lt;shemant@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009<BR>Subject: =
RE:=20
draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments<BR><BR>The new text for MSR's =
is as=20
follows:<BR><BR>"8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)<BR>The CPE Router =
MAY=20
support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.&nbsp; Small<BR>consumer embedded=20
multi-homed hosts in the home may not have<BR>configurable routing =
tables.&nbsp;=20
The CPE Router can communicate More<BR>Specific Routes (MSRs) to these =
hosts to=20
allow them to choose a<BR>preferred router to send traffic to for =
traffic=20
destined to specific<BR>prefixes configured through manual =
configuration.&nbsp;=20
Advertisement of MSRs<BR>through RAs is turned off by default."<BR><BR>- =

Wes<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: james woodyatt [<A=20
href=3D"mailto:jhw@apple.com">mailto:jhw@apple.com</A>]<BR>Sent: =
Wednesday, March=20
25, 2009 7:17 PM<BR>To: IPv6 Operations<BR>Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); =
Wes=20
Beebee (wbeebee)<BR>Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04=20
comments<BR><BR>On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt =
wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, =
now<BR>&gt;=20
that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.&nbsp; I=20
am<BR>&gt; only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO =
has=20
been<BR>&gt; received on the WAN link with L=3D1.&nbsp; No other cases =
are=20
interesting.<BR><BR>I take it back.&nbsp; It's interesting in the other =
cases as=20
well.&nbsp; Two CPE<BR>routers attached to the same link will exchange =
their=20
prefixes with MSR<BR>advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from =
the=20
service provider<BR>have PIO options in them.&nbsp; As they=20
should.<BR><BR><BR>--<BR>james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;<BR>member =
of=20
technical staff, communications =
engineering<BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT></P><!--[object_id=3D#att.com#]-->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>*****</FONT></P>
<P><FONT face=3DTahoma color=3D#000000 size=3D2>The information =
transmitted is=20
intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may =
contain=20
confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any review,=20
retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action =
in=20
reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the =
intended=20
recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact =
the=20
sender and delete the material from all computers.=20
GA622</FONT></P></FONT></FONT></BODY></HTML>

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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 16:58:37 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 27 14:02:38 2009
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Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 11:02:09 -1000 (HST)
From: Antonio Querubin <tony@lava.net>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
cc: swmike@swm.pp.se, v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Stark, Barbara wrote:

> That's an interesting use case, with definite application, but I wonder 
> if it's really compelling in the case of the simple CPE Router.
>
> When CPE Routers are cascaded, the cascaded router is generally directly 
> connected to the upstream router, so that there would be no added 
> efficiencies from this.

I don't think it's that uncommon.  I've seen households, small businesses, 
churches, etc that have multiple routers/switches/WAP devices scattered 
throughout the home or their buildings/offices.  While these types of 
deployments do not represent a very large percentage of how these devices 
are being used, I think we'll see more and more of these devices being 
cascaded together just for the addition of ports or access points.  The 
cost difference between a switch-only device vs a router is so minimal 
that many consumers opt for the latter even though all they really need is 
another switch in most cases.  Few of these entities have IT staff to 
advise them otherwise, nevermind efficiency.  Last time I browsed the 
network section of a computer store, I saw as many wireless devices with 
built-in routers vs just standalone WAPs/switches.  Same for the 
firewall/NAT devices.

Changing the topic slightly, it seems to me that one of the big challenges 
for the CPER is determining how the prefix sub-delegation behaviour should 
be when you do have cascaded devices.  Current IPv4 devices just avoid the 
issue by doing NAT upon NAT.  If IPv6 frees users from limits on addresses 
and subnets then the CPER behaviour should be designed to automatically 
handle the partitioning of the SP-delegated /56 or /48 among 2 or more 
downstream CPERs.  Should we try to spell out a recommended behaviour in 
more detail or are we gonna leave that up to vendor implementation?

Antonio Querubin
whois:  AQ7-ARIN


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Mar 27 14:24:59 2009
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:24:03 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Antonio Querubin" <tony@lava.net>, "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
Cc: <swmike@swm.pp.se>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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>Changing the topic slightly, it seems to me that one of the big
challenges=20
>for the CPER is determining how the prefix sub-delegation behaviour
should=20
>be when you do have cascaded devices.  Current IPv4 devices just avoid
the=20
>issue by doing NAT upon NAT.  If IPv6 frees users from limits on
addresses=20
>and subnets then the CPER behaviour should be designed to automatically

>handle the partitioning of the SP-delegated /56 or /48 among 2 or more=20
>downstream CPERs.  Should we try to spell out a recommended behaviour
in=20
>more detail or are we gonna leave that up to vendor implementation?


Please see emails in the v6ops mailer that transpired were very early
that discussed this issue.  We close the issue and recommended using
DHCPv6 server in the CPER and not use NAT like IPV4.  Please read the
cascaded router section 6 of our draft and we have recommended
sub-delegation.  Of, course the deployment must also support DHCPv6 PD.
It is intended that the sub-delegation is automatic in the CPER but we
don't plan to spell in out - it's left to vendor implementation. =20

Hemant


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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 17:30:34 -0400
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From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>, <jhw@apple.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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You don=E2=80=99t think that AT&T the DSL SP will know what AT&T =
wireless might be doing with a device that=E2=80=99s connected to AT&T =
the application service provider? J Oh ye of little faith. Have you =
never seen the movie =E2=80=9CThe President=E2=80=99s Analyst=E2=80=9D?

=20

But no, in the case you describe, the cellular network that provides =
this iPhone with 3G connectivity would need to send route info in its =
RA, specifying the prefixes of its walled garden, to the iPhone. If the =
DSL connection is just a plain vanilla connection, there would be no =
route info coming at the iPhone from its Wi-Fi interface. The DSL =
provider doesn=E2=80=99t need to know about the 3G connection =E2=80=93 =
only the iPhone knows.

Barbara

=20

From: Hemant Singh (shemant) [mailto:shemant@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 4:59 PM
To: Stark, Barbara; Wes Beebee (wbeebee); jhw@apple.com; =
v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

=20

Barbara,

=20

You are also asking for the impossible.   As a cable or DSL SP, you =
don=E2=80=99t know what the IPv6 prefix my IPhone from AT&T is using for =
the cellular network?  So how can any MSR be devised and propagated from =
the SP router serving the broadband modem in the home to send an MSR for =
a prefix not known to them? =20

=20

Our new text is fine.

=20

Hemant

=20

From: Stark, Barbara [mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 4:44 PM
To: Wes Beebee (wbeebee); jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

=20

It's not clear to me why manual configuration is specified as *the* way =
to configure these routes (again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the access =
network to the CPE Rtr WAN interface as a way to configure the routes). =
I propose that if a CPE Rtr gets such routes from the WAN that it =
automatically put those same route prefixes in its LAN RAs. In which =
case it would not be off by default, but on by default (it would =
automatically send specific route info if it has specific route info to =
send).
Barbara

----- Original Message -----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org <owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant) <shemant@cisco.com>
Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

The new text for MSR's is as follows:

"8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.  Small
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have
configurable routing tables.  The CPE Router can communicate More
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific
prefixes configured through manual configuration.  Advertisement of MSRs
through RAs is turned off by default."

- Wes

-----Original Message-----
From: james woodyatt [mailto:jhw@apple.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:
>
> Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, now
> that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.  I am
> only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has been
> received on the WAN link with L=3D1.  No other cases are interesting.

I take it back.  It's interesting in the other cases as well.  Two CPE
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with MSR
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service provider
have PIO options in them.  As they should.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering



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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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color:#1F497D'>You don=E2=80=99t think that AT&amp;T the DSL SP will =
know what AT&amp;T
wireless might be doing with a device that=E2=80=99s connected to =
AT&amp;T the application
service provider? </span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Wingdings;
color:#1F497D'>J</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'> Oh ye of little faith. Have you never seen the movie =
=E2=80=9CThe
President=E2=80=99s Analyst=E2=80=9D?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>But no, in the case you describe, the cellular network =
that provides
this iPhone with 3G connectivity would need to send route info in its =
RA, specifying
the prefixes of its walled garden, to the iPhone. If the DSL connection =
is just
a plain vanilla connection, there would be no route info coming at the =
iPhone
from its Wi-Fi interface. The DSL provider doesn=E2=80=99t need to know =
about the 3G
connection =E2=80=93 only the iPhone knows.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Barbara<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Hemant =
Singh
(shemant) [mailto:shemant@cisco.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 27, 2009 4:59 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stark, Barbara; Wes Beebee (wbeebee); jhw@apple.com;
v6ops@ops.ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 =
comments<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Barbara,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>You are also asking for the impossible.&nbsp;&nbsp; As a =
cable
or DSL SP, you don=E2=80=99t know what the IPv6 prefix my IPhone from =
AT&amp;T is using
for the cellular network?&nbsp; So how can any MSR be devised and =
propagated
from the SP router serving the broadband modem in the home to send an =
MSR for a
prefix not known to them?&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Our new text is fine.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hemant<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stark, =
Barbara
[mailto:bs7652@att.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 27, 2009 4:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wes Beebee (wbeebee); jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hemant Singh (shemant)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 =
comments<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>It's =
not clear
to me why manual configuration is specified as *the* way to configure =
these
routes (again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the access network to the CPE =
Rtr WAN
interface as a way to configure the routes). I propose that if a CPE Rtr =
gets
such routes from the WAN that it automatically put those same route =
prefixes in
its LAN RAs. In which case it would not be off by default, but on by =
default (it
would automatically send specific route info if it has specific route =
info to
send).<br>
Barbara<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org &lt;owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<br>
To: james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;; IPv6 Operations
&lt;v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<br>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant) &lt;shemant@cisco.com&gt;<br>
Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009<br>
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments<br>
<br>
The new text for MSR's is as follows:<br>
<br>
&quot;8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)<br>
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.&nbsp; =
Small<br>
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have<br>
configurable routing tables.&nbsp; The CPE Router can communicate =
More<br>
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a<br>
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific<br>
prefixes configured through manual configuration.&nbsp; Advertisement of =
MSRs<br>
through RAs is turned off by default.&quot;<br>
<br>
- Wes<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: james woodyatt [<a =
href=3D"mailto:jhw@apple.com">mailto:jhw@apple.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM<br>
To: IPv6 Operations<br>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)<br>
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments<br>
<br>
On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, =
now<br>
&gt; that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router =
draft.&nbsp; I am<br>
&gt; only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has =
been<br>
&gt; received on the WAN link with L=3D1.&nbsp; No other cases are =
interesting.<br>
<br>
I take it back.&nbsp; It's interesting in the other cases as well.&nbsp; =
Two
CPE<br>
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with =
MSR<br>
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service =
provider<br>
have PIO options in them.&nbsp; As they should.<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;<br>
member of technical staff, communications engineering<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span =
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error,
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GA622</span><span
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</div>

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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 18:48:36 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Fri, 27 Mar 2009 19:14:57 -0400
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From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>, <jhw@apple.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
CC: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
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This is non-normative language, in the abstract of RFC 4191. Normative
references to RFC 4191 purely apply to the protocol, and do not apply to
non-normative statements in that RFC about how one might or might not
configure the elements of that protocol. The goal of not having too many
routes advertised is worthy, and does need to be given serious
consideration in the design of any algorithm that would derive the
routes in an automated manner.

Barbara

=20

From: Wes Beebee (wbeebee) [mailto:wbeebee@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 4:56 PM
To: Stark, Barbara; jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant)
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

=20

In the Abstract, RFC 4191 says explicitly:

=20

"The preference values and specific routes advertised to hosts require
administrative configuration; they are not automatically derived from
routing tables."

=20

Further, throughout RFC 4191, they give examples that illustrate why
they make this statement.  The problems (briefly) are stability of
routes, more than 17 routes getting advertised (too many routes), etc.=20

=20

- Wes

=20

________________________________

From: Stark, Barbara [mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 4:44 PM
To: Wes Beebee (wbeebee); jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

It's not clear to me why manual configuration is specified as *the* way
to configure these routes (again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the access
network to the CPE Rtr WAN interface as a way to configure the routes).
I propose that if a CPE Rtr gets such routes from the WAN that it
automatically put those same route prefixes in its LAN RAs. In which
case it would not be off by default, but on by default (it would
automatically send specific route info if it has specific route info to
send).
Barbara

----- Original Message -----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org <owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant) <shemant@cisco.com>
Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

The new text for MSR's is as follows:

"8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.  Small
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have
configurable routing tables.  The CPE Router can communicate More
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific
prefixes configured through manual configuration.  Advertisement of MSRs
through RAs is turned off by default."

- Wes

-----Original Message-----
From: james woodyatt [mailto:jhw@apple.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:
>
> Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, now
> that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.  I am
> only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has been
> received on the WAN link with L=3D1.  No other cases are interesting.

I take it back.  It's interesting in the other cases as well.  Two CPE
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with MSR
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service provider
have PIO options in them.  As they should.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




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<title>Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments</title>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This is non-normative language, in the abstract of RFC =
4191. Normative
references to RFC 4191 purely apply to the protocol, and do not apply to
non-normative statements in that RFC about how one might or might not =
configure
the elements of that protocol. The goal of not having too many routes
advertised is worthy, and does need to be given serious consideration in =
the
design of any algorithm that would derive the routes in an automated =
manner.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Barbara<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Wes Beebee
(wbeebee) [mailto:wbeebee@cisco.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 27, 2009 4:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stark, Barbara; jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hemant Singh (shemant)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 =
comments<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>In the Abstract, RFC 4191 says =
explicitly:</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>&quot;The preference values and specific routes advertised =
to hosts
require administrative configuration; they are not automatically derived =
from
routing tables.&quot;</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Further, throughout RFC 4191, they give examples that =
illustrate
why they make this statement.&nbsp; The problems (briefly)&nbsp;are =
stability
of routes, more than 17 routes getting advertised (too many routes), =
etc.&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>- Wes</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stark, Barbara =
[mailto:bs7652@att.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, March 27, 2009 4:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wes Beebee (wbeebee); jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hemant Singh (shemant)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 =
comments</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>It's =
not clear
to me why manual configuration is specified as *the* way to configure =
these
routes (again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the access network to the CPE =
Rtr WAN
interface as a way to configure the routes). I propose that if a CPE Rtr =
gets
such routes from the WAN that it automatically put those same route =
prefixes in
its LAN RAs. In which case it would not be off by default, but on by =
default
(it would automatically send specific route info if it has specific =
route info
to send).<br>
Barbara<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org &lt;owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<br>
To: james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;; IPv6 Operations
&lt;v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<br>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant) &lt;shemant@cisco.com&gt;<br>
Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009<br>
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments<br>
<br>
The new text for MSR's is as follows:<br>
<br>
&quot;8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)<br>
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.&nbsp; =
Small<br>
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have<br>
configurable routing tables.&nbsp; The CPE Router can communicate =
More<br>
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a<br>
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific<br>
prefixes configured through manual configuration.&nbsp; Advertisement of =
MSRs<br>
through RAs is turned off by default.&quot;<br>
<br>
- Wes<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: james woodyatt [<a =
href=3D"mailto:jhw@apple.com">mailto:jhw@apple.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM<br>
To: IPv6 Operations<br>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)<br>
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments<br>
<br>
On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, =
now<br>
&gt; that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router =
draft.&nbsp; I am<br>
&gt; only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has =
been<br>
&gt; received on the WAN link with L=3D1.&nbsp; No other cases are =
interesting.<br>
<br>
I take it back.&nbsp; It's interesting in the other cases as well.&nbsp; =
Two
CPE<br>
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with =
MSR<br>
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service =
provider<br>
have PIO options in them.&nbsp; As they should.<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;<br>
member of technical staff, communications engineering<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>

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everyone--

I personally invited Keith Moore to comment on the subject of draft- 
ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security, and he graciously sent me the  
following response, but I think he inadvertently neglected to Cc the  
working group.  [I'm including the entire text of his comments.]

My comments are included inline.

On Mar 27, 2009, at 13:50, Keith Moore wrote:
> this is from a single pass through the document, and I'll admit to not
> being well-focused when trying to review a document while sitting in
> WG meetings.  but these are the notes I took while reading it:
>
> section 2, middle of page 4:
>
>    It should be noted that NAT for IPv6 is both strictly forbidden by
>    the standards documents and strongly deprecated by Internet
>    operators.
>
> really?  or is this just wishful thinking?

You're right.  I confess to being poorly informed when I wrote that.   
I've since learned that no such prohibition, in fact, exists.

> section 2.1:
>
>    In particular, packets with end-to-
>    end network security and routing extension headers for mobility are
>    expected to pass Internet gateways freely.
>
> interesting.  so as an application developer, if I want a protocol to
> go through a firewall by default, I can just wrap it in IPsec or  
> mobileIP?

Yes.

> (and can I do this without actually implementing IPsec or mobileIP?)

Yes.  There is no way for the residential gateway to test if your  
IPsec or MIP6 implementation complies with the standard.  For IPsec,  
there just simply no way to know whether the SA really exists and/or  
what security parameters were negotiated, if any.  For MIP6, I admit,  
the design team may not have considered all the angles.  It's possible  
that a gateway might be able to impose some sanity on mobility that we  
didn't consider.

I'm open to suggestions.

> section 2.2:
>
>    gateways MUST
>    impede Teredo tunnels by blocking clients from learning their  
> mapped
>    addresses and ports in the qualification procedure described in
>    sections 5.2.1 and 5.2.2 of [RFC4380].
>
> mumble.  the fact that a gateway supports IPv6 access of some kind  
> doesn't
> mean that the IPv6 is enabled or working.  so I don't think the  
> gateway
> should block Teredo by default.  it seems like the thing to do is to
> impose the same filters on Teredo traffic that are imposed on native  
> IPv6
> traffic.

This isn't an oversight, and it was the subject of some debate on the  
working group list at the time, so I'd invite you to open further  
debate in the working group on the topic.

The design team interpreted the Teredo automatic sunset provision a  
bit broadly, I'll admit, but we thought it was important to discourage  
actively the use of Teredo when a more appropriate IPv6 service is  
*configured*.  If Teredo would provide better service than the  
configured service, then we thought it would be reasonable to require  
the administrator to change the configuration to disable the default  
IPv6 service.

> section 3.1:
>
>    R3: Packets bearing deprecated extension headers prior to their  
> first
>    upper-layer-protocol header MUST NOT be forwarded or transmitted on
>    any interface.  In particular, all packets with routing extension
>    header type 0 [RFC2460] preceding the first upper-layer-protocol
>    header MUST NOT be forwarded.
>
> I agree with the intent, but have an issue with the way that this is
> worded.  The problem is that the set of deprecated headers can change
> over time, causing a previously conforming implementation to become
> non-conforming.  Easiest fix is to make the first MUST NOT into a  
> SHOULD
> NOT.  (It wouldn't hurt to add an explanation as to why it's a  
> SHOULD NOT.)
> The latter MUST NOT can stay as is.

An excellent suggestion.

>    R4: Outbound packets MUST NOT be forwarded if the source address in
>    their outer IPv6 header does not have a unicast prefix assigned for
>    use by globally reachable nodes on the interior network.
>
> Again, (mostly) agree with the intent, have a problem with the way  
> it's
> stated. How does the gateway reliably know whether the prefix is  
> "assigned
> for use by globally reachable nodes on the interior network"?  What do
> you mean by "assigned for use ..."?  Are you talking about an IANA  
> assignment
> or a local assignment (say of a ULA)?  Is this a requirement that  
> might
> change over time as IANA assigns new prefixes?  Or something that  
> needs to
> be configured at the gateway?
>
> At the least, I think the wording is ambiguous here.  If you mean an  
> IANA
> assignment, say so, and make it a SHOULD NOT because it can change  
> over time.

Hmm.  This could use clarification, yes.  What I mean by assigned:  
either manually or automatically configured.  Would it make more sense  
if I just changed the word "assigned" to "configured?"

>    R4: Inbound packets MUST NOT be forwarded if the source address in
>    their outer IPv6 header has a global unicast prefix assigned for  
> use
>    by globally reachable nodes on the interior network.
>
> *** note: there are two R4s.

Yuck.  There are.

> (does this thwart Mobile IPv6?)

I'll check and fix if so.

>    R5: Packets MAY be discarded if the source and/or destination  
> address
>    in the outer IPv6 header is a unique local address.  By DEFAULT,
>    gateways SHOULD NOT forward packets across unique local address  
> scope
>    boundaries.
>
> Seems ambiguous.  How does the router know if the packet is crossing a
> ULA scope boundary?  It's not as if a ULA is inherently confined to  
> the
> "inside" of the router.  Don't assume that the outside of the router  
> is
> the public IPv6 network.
>
> Also the first sentence seems to give the router
> license to arbitrarily discard packets just because the packet uses a
> ULA.  This needs to be configurable and the router needs to honor its
> configuration.  It might be that a reasonable default would be to drop
> such packets (on the theory that most consumers won't be using ULAs  
> and
> those that do will know enough to enable them) but I can't confidently
> state that for all use cases.  If some ISP wants to distribute CPE  
> boxes
> that make some use of ULAs, should this document preclude that?
>
> Maybe: a) packets with src/dest ULA addresses SHOULD be discarded by  
> default
>        b) this behavior MUST be configurable
> but as for how best to configure it, I'm not sure.  maybe be able to  
> explicitly
> permit src or dest ULAs that match any of a list of prefix/netmasks.

Good grief, you're right.  That was badly worded.  I think you  
captured the intent.  I'll rewrite.  Remember, we're talking about  
residential gateway routers attached to a service provider uplink.   
Other routers in a routed residential network may need to have  
different behaviors, but it seems like a good default is to keep the  
ULAs confined to residential networks.  Absolutely, this MUST be a  
configurable option.  I think it ought to be sufficient to allow the  
user to configure their gateway not to confine ULA addresses.

>    R6: By DEFAULT, inbound non-recursive DNS queries received on
>    exterior interfaces MUST NOT be processed by any integrated DNS  
> proxy
>    resolving server.
>
> emphatically agree.  (I'd like to make similar restriction for  
> outbound,
> as I've lost way too much hair due to broken DNS proxies in SOHO  
> gateways.)
> In general, interception proxies are evil and should not be used.
>
> section 3.2.1:
>
>    Residential IPv6 gateways are not expected to prohibit the use of
>    applications to be developed using future upper-layer transport
>    protocols.  In particular, transport protocols not otherwise
>    discussed in subsequent sections of this document are expected to  
> be
>    treated consistently, i.e. as having connection-free semantics  
> and no
>    special requirements to inspect the transport headers.
>
> This is interesting.  I understand that you're trying to permit  
> deployment
> of new transport protocols, but from a security perspective I don't  
> know
> why an unknown transport protocol should get less filtering than  
> that for
> UDP.  So I'm a bit uneasy with this text but I don't know how to  
> tweak it
> to make it better.
>
> I do think there's a need to be able to configure the router to  
> explicitly
> pass any transport protocol.
>
> ***
> In general about firewall state - if the firewall is colocated with  
> NAT,
> you want the lifetime of the firewall state associated with a flow  
> to be
> the same as the lifetime of the NAT binding associated with the flow.
> That might seem obvious but I don't think it really is.
>
> section 3.2.3:
>
>    R18: Where an IPv6 prefix is advertised on an interior interface
>    alongside an IPv4 private address [RFC1918] and IPv4 Internet  
> service
>    is provided with NAT [RFC4787], the Teredo qualification procedure
>    (see section 5.2.1 and 5.2.2 of [RFC4380]) for clients in the
>    interior MUST be prohibited by the IPv4/NAT stateful filter.  This
>    SHOULD be done by blocking outbound UDP initiations to port 3544,  
> the
>    port reserved by IANA for Teredo servers.
>
> - seems like the MUST should refer to the default behavior.  it  
> should be
>   possible to override it.

See above remarks.  This seems a question worth asking the working  
group.

> - are the criteria correct?  What does the IPv4 private address have  
> to
>   do with it?

I suppose the phrase "alongside an IPv4 private address [RFC1918]" is  
useless verbiage.

> does the IPv6 prefix have to be advertised by the same
>   gateway that implements the IPv4 NAT, or can it be advertised  
> elsewhere?
>   what if that prefix is not a global prefix but instead a ULA that
>   presumably isn't globally routeable?

Ah, yes.  The intent here could be more clear.

> - again it seems like the thing to do is not to block Teredo, but  
> impose
>   the same filtering for Teredo that is imposed for native IPv6.

We considered that.  I wonder what the sense of the working group is  
now.

> ***
>   I'm thinking that maybe every rule should be stated as follows:
>   - what's the default behavior?  MUST or SHOULD?
>   - to what extent, and what degree of granularity, is the gateway  
> required
>     to make this behavior configurable?
>
> ***
>   I'm also thinking there's a need for balance between default IPv4
>   behavior and default IPv6 behavior.  We should not favor IPv4 over  
> IPv6.
>   Nor should IPv6 be seen as a way to bypass IPv4 restrictions,  
> unless there's
>   a technical justification for it (e.g. it's much harder to do port  
> scanning
>   in IPv6 because the address space is sparse, so countermeasures  
> for IPv4
>   might not be appropriate for IPv6)

Down this road lies a quagmire of trouble related to discussions that  
seem to be lying dormant in the wake of RFC 4864.

> section 3.2.5:
>
>    Residential IPv6 gateways are not expected to prohibit the use of
>    virtual private networks in residential usage scenarios.
>
>    R23: In their DEFAULT operating mode, IPv6 gateways MUST NOT  
> prohibit
>    the forwarding, to and from legitimate node addresses, with upper
>    layer protocol of type IP version 6, and SHOULD NOT prohibit the
>    forwarding of other tunneled networking protocols commonly used for
>    virtual private networking, e.g.  IP version 4, Generic Routing
>    Encapsulation, etcetera.
>
> For IP-in-IP tunneling, should the default restrictions on the inner  
> packet
> be the same as the restrictions on outer layer packet?

The design team considered that and decided it was unnecessary.  We  
regarded the establishment of a tunnel, even by manual configuration,  
as morally equivalent to the solicitation of traffic through the  
tunnel, and therefore not subject to the simple security policy  
intended to block unsolicited flows.

> section 3.3.1:
>
>    Peer-to-peer applications use an alternate method of connection
>    initiation termed simultaneous-open (Fig. 8, [RFC0793]) to traverse
>    stateful filters.  In the simultaneous-open mode of operation, both
>    peers send SYN packets for the same TCP connection.
>
> I'd say "Some peer-to-peer applications..."

Okay.

> I'm glad you mention simultaneous open, though I'm not sure how it  
> affects
> firewall operation.  The firewall is still not going to permit an  
> inbound
> SYN packet unless it has first seen an outbound SYN packet.   I  
> guess the
> firewall should not block an inbound SYN packet if it has recently  
> seen an
> outbound SYN packet for the same flow.
>
>    It is possible to reconstruct enough of the state of a TCP  
> connection
>    to allow forwarding between an interior and exterior node even when
>    the filter starts operating after TCP enters the established state.
>    In this case, because the filter has not seen the TCP window-scale
>    option, it is not possible for the filter to enforce the TCP window
>    invariant by dropping out-of-window segments.
>
>    R25: The TCP window invariant MUST NOT be enforced on connections  
> for
>    which the filter did not detect whether the window-scale option  
> (see
>    [RFC1323]) was sent in the 3-way handshake or simultaneous open.
>
> Mumble.  I think you're talking about how the gateway should handle
> flows that were already present (or may have already been present)  
> before
> a filter was imposed, and that the treatment of this topic seems a  
> lot broader
> than dealing with TCP window negotiation.  e.g. is there a  
> requirement that
> the firewall permit inbound packets on flows for which it didn't see  
> the
> outgoing SYN because the filter was enabled after the SYN was sent?

This requirement was inserted because we wanted to be explicit about  
making sure that loose-state matching for TCP isn't broken by buggy  
window scale tracking and sequence number modulation.

> (and for that matter, can the gateway reasonably assume it is the only
> path between the endpoints?)

Yes, this is an assumption about simple residential gateways.  We do  
not consider multihomed residential networks.

>    A stateful filter can allow an existing state record to be reused  
> by
>    an externally initiated connection if its security policy permits.
>    Several different policies are possible as described in "Network
>    Address Translation (NAT) Behavioral Requirements for Unicast UDP
>    [RFC4787] and extended in "NAT Behaviorial Requirements for TCP"
>    [RFC5382].
>
>    R26: If application transparency is most important, then a stateful
>    packet filter SHOULD have "Endpoint independent filter" behavior  
> for
>    TCP.  If a more stringent filtering behavior is most important,  
> then
>    a filter SHOULD have "Address dependent filtering" behavior.  The
>    filtering behavior MAY be an option configurable by the network
>    administrator, and it MAY be independent of the filtering behavior
>    for UDP and other protocols.
>
> I think the requirement should be stronger:
> MUST implement endpoint independent filtering and this MUST be the  
> default.
> MAY implement address dependent filtering and this MUST NOT be the  
> default.

I would agree with you, but I don't know what the rest of the working  
group thinks.  This language came from the BEHAVE drafts for TCP, and  
I don't remember it being terribly controversial in the design team  
discussions.  Perhaps the working group feels differently than we do.

> address dependent filtering breaks applications.

I know.  Some people like that.  It breaks malicious applications.

>    R27: A gateway MUST NOT signal an error for an unsolicited inbound
>    SYN packet for at least 6 seconds after the packet is received.  If
>    during this interval the gateway receives and forwards an outbound
>    SYN for the connection, then the gateway MUST discard the original
>    unsolicited inbound SYN packet without signaling an error.
>    Otherwise, the gateway SHOULD send an ICMP Destination Unreachable
>    error, code 1 (administratively prohibited) for the original SYN--
>    unless sending any response violates the security policy of the
>    network administrator.
>
> I think that gateways MUST send ICMP destination unreachable by  
> default,
> MUST wait at least 6 seconds before sending it (and abandon sending it
> if it's seen a SYN or SYN-ACK in the other direction) and MAY have an
> option to disable sending ICMP unreachable.

Agree.  This language should be cleaned up that way.

>    R31: Gateways MUST implement a protocol to permit applications to
>    solicit inbound traffic without advance knowledge of the  
> addresses of
>    exterior nodes with which they expect to communicate.
>
> I really think we need an IETF standard for this, and it needs to work
> with both NATs and firewalls.

I'm less convinced the need for this is urgent, and I disagree that we  
need one protocol that works with both translators and filters.  For  
IPv6 translators, e.g. NAT64, I'm beginning to think that what we  
really need is to resurrect RSIP.  For IPv6 stateful filters, like CPE  
simple security, I proposed a method: ALD.  A reference to it is in  
the draft.  (That draft has quietly expired, because I've been sorta  
hoping the need for it would wither away, but if that's yet more of my  
trademark wishful thinking, I'll drag myself back into revising it.)


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering



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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><div>everyone--</div><div><br></div><div>I personally invited =
Keith Moore to comment on the subject =
of&nbsp;draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security, and he graciously sent me =
the following response, but I think he inadvertently neglected to Cc the =
working group. &nbsp;[I'm including the entire text of his =
comments.]</div><div><br></div><div>My comments are included =
inline.</div><div><br></div><div>On Mar 27, 2009, at 13:50, Keith Moore =
wrote:</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" =
text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"-webkit-text-stroke-width: -1; ">this is from a single pass =
through the document, and I'll admit to not<br>being well-focused when =
trying to review a document while sitting in<br>WG meetings.&nbsp; but =
these are the notes I took while reading it:<br><br>section 2, middle of =
page 4:<br><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; It should be noted that NAT for IPv6 is both =
strictly forbidden by<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; the standards documents and =
strongly deprecated by Internet<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; =
operators.&nbsp;<br><br></span>really?&nbsp; or is this just wishful =
thinking?</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>You're right. =
&nbsp;I confess to being poorly informed when I wrote that. &nbsp;I've =
since learned that no such prohibition, in fact, =
exists.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" =
text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">section 2.1:<br> <br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; In particular, packets with end-to-<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; end =
network security and routing extension headers for mobility are<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; expected to pass Internet gateways freely.<br> <br> =
interesting.&nbsp; so as an application developer, if I want a protocol =
to<br> go through a firewall by default, I can just wrap it in IPsec or =
mobileIP?</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Yes. =
&nbsp;</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" =
text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">(and can I do this without =
actually implementing IPsec or =
mobileIP?)</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes. &nbsp;There =
is no way for the residential gateway to test if your IPsec or MIP6 =
implementation complies with the standard. &nbsp;For IPsec, there just =
simply no way to know whether the SA really exists and/or what security =
parameters were negotiated, if any. &nbsp;For MIP6, I admit, the design =
team may not have considered all the angles. &nbsp;It's possible that a =
gateway might be able to impose some sanity on mobility that we didn't =
consider.</div><div><br></div><div>I'm open to =
suggestions.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">section =
2.2:<br> <br> &nbsp;&nbsp; gateways MUST<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; impede Teredo =
tunnels by blocking clients from learning their mapped<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; =
addresses and ports in the qualification procedure described in<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; sections 5.2.1 and 5.2.2 of [RFC4380].<br> <br> =
mumble.&nbsp; the fact that a gateway supports IPv6 access of some kind =
doesn't<br> mean that the IPv6 is enabled or working.&nbsp; so I don't =
think the gateway<br> should block Teredo by default.&nbsp; it seems =
like the thing to do is to <br> impose the same filters on Teredo =
traffic that are imposed on native IPv6<br> =
traffic.</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This isn't an =
oversight, and it was the subject of some debate on the working group =
list at the time, so I'd invite you to open further debate in the =
working group on the topic.</div><div><br></div><div>The design team =
interpreted the Teredo automatic sunset provision a bit broadly, I'll =
admit, but we thought it was important to discourage actively the use of =
Teredo when a more appropriate IPv6 service is *configured*. &nbsp;If =
Teredo would provide better service than the configured service, then we =
thought it would be reasonable to require the administrator to change =
the configuration to disable the default IPv6 =
service.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" =
text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">section 3.1:<br> <br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; R3: Packets bearing deprecated extension headers prior to =
their first<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; upper-layer-protocol header MUST NOT be =
forwarded or transmitted on<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; any interface.&nbsp; In =
particular, all packets with routing extension<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; header =
type 0 [RFC2460] preceding the first upper-layer-protocol<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; header MUST NOT be forwarded.<br> <br> I agree with the =
intent, but have an issue with the way that this is<br> worded.&nbsp; =
The problem is that the set of deprecated headers can change<br> over =
time, causing a previously conforming implementation to become<br> =
non-conforming.&nbsp; Easiest fix is to make the first MUST NOT into a =
SHOULD<br> NOT.&nbsp; (It wouldn't hurt to add an explanation as to why =
it's a SHOULD NOT.)<br> The latter MUST NOT can stay as =
is.</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>An excellent =
suggestion.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier"> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; R4: Outbound packets MUST NOT be forwarded if the source =
address in<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; their outer IPv6 header does not have a =
unicast prefix assigned for<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; use by globally reachable =
nodes on the interior network.<br> <br> Again, (mostly) agree with the =
intent, have a problem with the way it's <br> stated. How does the =
gateway reliably know whether the prefix is "assigned <br> for use by =
globally reachable nodes on the interior network"?&nbsp; What do<br> you =
mean by "assigned for use ..."?&nbsp; Are you talking about an IANA =
assignment<br> or a local assignment (say of a ULA)?&nbsp; Is this a =
requirement that might <br> change over time as IANA assigns new =
prefixes?&nbsp; Or something that needs to <br> be configured at the =
gateway?<br> <br> At the least, I think the wording is ambiguous =
here.&nbsp; If you mean an IANA<br> assignment, say so, and make it a =
SHOULD NOT because it can change over =
time.</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Hmm. &nbsp;This could =
use clarification, yes. &nbsp;What I mean by assigned: either manually =
or automatically configured. &nbsp;Would it make more sense if I just =
changed the word "assigned" to "configured?"</div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"></blockquote><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
R4: Inbound packets MUST NOT be forwarded if the source address in<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; their outer IPv6 header has a global unicast prefix =
assigned for use<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; by globally reachable nodes on the =
interior network.<br> <br> *** note: there are two =
R4s.</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yuck. &nbsp;There =
are.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" =
text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">(does this thwart Mobile =
IPv6?)</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I'll check and fix =
if so.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier"> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; R5: Packets MAY be discarded if the source and/or =
destination address<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; in the outer IPv6 header is a =
unique local address.&nbsp; By DEFAULT,<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; gateways SHOULD =
NOT forward packets across unique local address scope<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; =
boundaries.<br> <br> Seems ambiguous.&nbsp; How does the router know if =
the packet is crossing a<br> ULA scope boundary?&nbsp; It's not as if a =
ULA is inherently confined to the<br> "inside" of the router.&nbsp; =
Don't assume that the outside of the router is<br> the public IPv6 =
network.&nbsp;</font></div></blockquote><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><br></blockquote><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: courier; ">Also the =
first sentence seems to give the router<br>license to arbitrarily =
discard packets just because the packet uses a&nbsp;<br>ULA.&nbsp; This =
needs to be configurable and the router needs to honor =
its<br>configuration.&nbsp; It might be that a reasonable default would =
be to drop<br>such packets (on the theory that most consumers won't be =
using ULAs and<br>those that do will know enough to enable them) but I =
can't confidently<br>state that for all use cases.&nbsp; If some ISP =
wants to distribute CPE boxes<br>that make some use of ULAs, should this =
document preclude that?<br><br>Maybe: a) packets with src/dest ULA =
addresses SHOULD be discarded by =
default<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; b) this behavior MUST be =
configurable<br>but as for how best to configure it, I'm not sure.&nbsp; =
maybe be able to explicitly<br>permit src or dest ULAs that match any of =
a list of prefix/netmasks.<br></span></blockquote><br></div><div>Good =
grief, you're right. &nbsp;That was badly worded. &nbsp;I think you =
captured the intent. &nbsp;I'll rewrite. &nbsp;Remember, we're talking =
about residential gateway routers attached to a service provider uplink. =
&nbsp;Other routers in a routed residential network may need to have =
different behaviors, but it seems like a good default is to keep the =
ULAs confined to residential networks. &nbsp;Absolutely, this MUST be a =
configurable option. &nbsp;I think it ought to be sufficient to allow =
the user to configure their gateway not to confine ULA =
addresses.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier"> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; R6: By DEFAULT, inbound non-recursive DNS queries received =
on<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; exterior interfaces MUST NOT be processed by any =
integrated DNS proxy<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; resolving server.<br> <br> =
emphatically agree.&nbsp; (I'd like to make similar restriction for =
outbound,<br> as I've lost way too much hair due to broken DNS proxies =
in SOHO gateways.)<br> In general, interception proxies are evil and =
should not be used.<br> <br> section 3.2.1:<br> <br> &nbsp;&nbsp; =
Residential IPv6 gateways are not expected to prohibit the use of<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; applications to be developed using future upper-layer =
transport<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; protocols.&nbsp; In particular, transport =
protocols not otherwise<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; discussed in subsequent =
sections of this document are expected to be<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; treated =
consistently, i.e. as having connection-free semantics and no<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; special requirements to inspect the transport headers.<br> =
<br> This is interesting.&nbsp; I understand that you're trying to =
permit deployment<br> of new transport protocols, but from a security =
perspective I don't know<br> why an unknown transport protocol should =
get less filtering than that for<br> UDP.&nbsp; So I'm a bit uneasy with =
this text but I don't know how to tweak it<br> to make it better.<br> =
<br> I do think there's a need to be able to configure the router to =
explicitly<br> pass any transport protocol.<br> <br> ***<br> In general =
about firewall state - if the firewall is colocated with NAT,<br> you =
want the lifetime of the firewall state associated with a flow to be<br> =
the same as the lifetime of the NAT binding associated with the =
flow.<br> That might seem obvious but I don't think it really is.<br> =
<br> section 3.2.3:<br> <br> &nbsp;&nbsp; R18: Where an IPv6 prefix is =
advertised on an interior interface<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; alongside an IPv4 =
private address [RFC1918] and IPv4 Internet service<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; is =
provided with NAT [RFC4787], the Teredo qualification procedure<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; (see section 5.2.1 and 5.2.2 of [RFC4380]) for clients in =
the<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; interior MUST be prohibited by the IPv4/NAT =
stateful filter.&nbsp; This<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; SHOULD be done by blocking =
outbound UDP initiations to port 3544, the<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; port =
reserved by IANA for Teredo servers.<br> <br> - seems like the MUST =
should refer to the default behavior.&nbsp; it should be<br> &nbsp; =
possible to override =
it.</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>See above remarks. =
&nbsp;This seems a question worth asking the working =
group.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">- are the =
criteria correct?&nbsp; What does the IPv4 private address have to <br> =
&nbsp; do with it?</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I =
suppose the phrase "<span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family:=
 courier; ">alongside an IPv4 private address [RFC1918]"<span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; ">&nbsp;is =
useless verbiage. &nbsp;</span></span></div><div><font =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" face=3D"courier"><br></font></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"><font =
face=3D"courier">does the IPv6 prefix have to be advertised by the =
same<br> &nbsp; gateway that implements the IPv4 NAT, or can it be =
advertised elsewhere? <br> &nbsp; what if that prefix is not a global =
prefix but instead a ULA that <br> &nbsp; presumably isn't globally =
routeable?</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Ah, yes. =
&nbsp;The intent here could be more clear.</div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"><font =
face=3D"courier"></font></div></blockquote><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"><font =
face=3D"courier">- again it seems like the thing to do is not to block =
Teredo, but impose<br> &nbsp; the same filtering for Teredo that is =
imposed for native IPv6.</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>We =
considered that. &nbsp;I wonder what the sense of the working group is =
now.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" =
text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">*** <br> &nbsp; I'm thinking =
that maybe every rule should be stated as follows:<br> &nbsp; - what's =
the default behavior?&nbsp; MUST or SHOULD?<br> &nbsp; - to what extent, =
and what degree of granularity, is the gateway required<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; to make this behavior configurable?<br> <br> *** <br> =
&nbsp; I'm also thinking there's a need for balance between default IPv4 =
<br> &nbsp; behavior and default IPv6 behavior.&nbsp; We should not =
favor IPv4 over IPv6.<br> &nbsp; Nor should IPv6 be seen as a way to =
bypass IPv4 restrictions, unless there's<br> &nbsp; a technical =
justification for it (e.g. it's much harder to do port scanning<br> =
&nbsp; in IPv6 because the address space is sparse, so countermeasures =
for IPv4<br> &nbsp; might not be appropriate for =
IPv6)</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Down this road lies a =
quagmire of trouble related to discussions that seem to be lying dormant =
in the wake of RFC 4864.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">section =
3.2.5:<br> <br> &nbsp;&nbsp; Residential IPv6 gateways are not expected =
to prohibit the use of<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; virtual private networks in =
residential usage scenarios.<br> <br> &nbsp;&nbsp; R23: In their DEFAULT =
operating mode, IPv6 gateways MUST NOT prohibit<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; the =
forwarding, to and from legitimate node addresses, with upper<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; layer protocol of type IP version 6, and SHOULD NOT =
prohibit the<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; forwarding of other tunneled networking =
protocols commonly used for<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; virtual private networking, =
e.g.&nbsp; IP version 4, Generic Routing<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; Encapsulation, =
etcetera.<br> <br> For IP-in-IP tunneling, should the default =
restrictions on the inner packet<br> be the same as the restrictions on =
outer layer packet?</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>The =
design team considered that and decided it was unnecessary. &nbsp;We =
regarded the establishment of a tunnel, even by manual configuration, as =
morally equivalent to the solicitation of traffic through the tunnel, =
and therefore not subject to the simple security policy intended to =
block unsolicited flows.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">section =
3.3.1:<br> <br> &nbsp;&nbsp; Peer-to-peer applications use an alternate =
method of connection<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; initiation termed =
simultaneous-open (Fig. 8, [RFC0793]) to traverse<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; =
stateful filters.&nbsp; In the simultaneous-open mode of operation, =
both<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; peers send SYN packets for the same TCP =
connection.<br> <br> I'd say "Some peer-to-peer =
applications..."</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Okay.</div><=
br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" =
text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">I'm glad you mention =
simultaneous open, though I'm not sure how it affects<br> firewall =
operation.&nbsp; The firewall is still not going to permit an =
inbound<br> SYN packet unless it has first seen an outbound SYN =
packet.&nbsp;&nbsp; I guess the<br> firewall should not block an inbound =
SYN packet if it has recently seen an <br> outbound SYN packet for the =
same flow.<br> <br> &nbsp;&nbsp; It is possible to reconstruct enough of =
the state of a TCP connection<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; to allow forwarding =
between an interior and exterior node even when<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; the =
filter starts operating after TCP enters the established state.<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; In this case, because the filter has not seen the TCP =
window-scale<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; option, it is not possible for the filter =
to enforce the TCP window<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; invariant by dropping =
out-of-window segments.<br> <br> &nbsp;&nbsp; R25: The TCP window =
invariant MUST NOT be enforced on connections for<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; which =
the filter did not detect whether the window-scale option (see<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC1323]) was sent in the 3-way handshake or simultaneous =
open.<br> <br> Mumble.&nbsp; I think you're talking about how the =
gateway should handle<br> flows that were already present (or may have =
already been present) before<br> a filter was imposed, and that the =
treatment of this topic seems a lot broader<br> than dealing with TCP =
window negotiation.&nbsp; e.g. is there a requirement that<br> the =
firewall permit inbound packets on flows for which it didn't see the =
<br> outgoing SYN because the filter was enabled after the SYN was =
sent?</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>This requirement was =
inserted because we wanted to be explicit about making sure that =
loose-state matching for TCP isn't broken by buggy window scale tracking =
and sequence number modulation.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">(and for =
that matter, can the gateway reasonably assume it is the only <br> path =
between the =
endpoints?)</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Yes, this is an =
assumption about simple residential gateways. &nbsp;We do not consider =
multihomed residential networks.</div><div><br></div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"><font =
face=3D"courier"> &nbsp;&nbsp; A stateful filter can allow an existing =
state record to be reused by<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; an externally initiated =
connection if its security policy permits.<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; Several =
different policies are possible as described in "Network<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; Address Translation (NAT) Behavioral Requirements for =
Unicast UDP<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC4787] and extended in "NAT Behaviorial =
Requirements for TCP"<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; [RFC5382].<br> <br> &nbsp;&nbsp; =
R26: If application transparency is most important, then a stateful<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; packet filter SHOULD have "Endpoint independent filter" =
behavior for<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; TCP.&nbsp; If a more stringent filtering =
behavior is most important, then<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; a filter SHOULD have =
"Address dependent filtering" behavior.&nbsp; The<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; =
filtering behavior MAY be an option configurable by the network<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; administrator, and it MAY be independent of the filtering =
behavior<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; for UDP and other protocols.<br> <br> I think =
the requirement should be stronger:<br> MUST implement endpoint =
independent filtering and this MUST be the default.<br> MAY implement =
address dependent filtering and this MUST NOT be the =
default.</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I would agree with =
you, but I don't know what the rest of the working group thinks. =
&nbsp;This language came from the BEHAVE drafts for TCP, and I don't =
remember it being terribly controversial in the design team discussions. =
&nbsp;Perhaps the working group feels differently than we =
do.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" =
text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">address dependent filtering =
breaks applications.</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>I =
know. &nbsp;Some people like that. &nbsp;It breaks malicious =
applications.</div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" =
text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">&nbsp;&nbsp; R27: A gateway MUST =
NOT signal an error for an unsolicited inbound<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; SYN =
packet for at least 6 seconds after the packet is received.&nbsp; If<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; during this interval the gateway receives and forwards an =
outbound<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; SYN for the connection, then the gateway MUST =
discard the original<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; unsolicited inbound SYN packet =
without signaling an error.<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; Otherwise, the gateway =
SHOULD send an ICMP Destination Unreachable<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; error, code =
1 (administratively prohibited) for the original SYN--<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; =
unless sending any response violates the security policy of the<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; network administrator.<br> <br> I think that gateways MUST =
send ICMP destination unreachable by default,<br> MUST wait at least 6 =
seconds before sending it (and abandon sending it<br> if it's seen a SYN =
or SYN-ACK in the other direction) and MAY have an <br> option to =
disable sending ICMP =
unreachable.</font></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Agree. =
&nbsp;This language should be cleaned up that =
way.</div><div><br></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
bgcolor=3D"#ffffff" text=3D"#000000"><font face=3D"courier">&nbsp;&nbsp; =
R31: Gateways MUST implement a protocol to permit applications to<br> =
&nbsp;&nbsp; solicit inbound traffic without advance knowledge of the =
addresses of<br> &nbsp;&nbsp; exterior nodes with which they expect to =
communicate. <br> <br> I really think we need an IETF standard for this, =
and it needs to work<br> with both NATs and =
firewalls.<br></font></div></blockquote></div><br><div>I'm less =
convinced the need for this is urgent, and I disagree that we need one =
protocol that works with both translators and filters. &nbsp;For IPv6 =
translators, e.g. NAT64, I'm beginning to think that what we really need =
is to resurrect RSIP. &nbsp;For IPv6 stateful filters, like CPE simple =
security, I proposed a method: ALD. &nbsp;A reference to it is in the =
draft. &nbsp;(That draft has quietly expired, because I've been sorta =
hoping the need for it would wither away, but if that's yet more of my =
trademark wishful thinking, I'll drag myself back into revising =
it.)</div><br><div apple-content-edited=3D"true"> <span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Eurostile; =
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normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
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white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -khtml-nbsp-mode: space; =
-khtml-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-size: 12px; font-style: =
normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: =
normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: separate; =
border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: =
normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
-apple-text-size-adjust: auto; text-transform: none; orphans: 2; =
white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; "><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"border-collapse: separate; border-spacing: 0px 0px; color: =
rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Geneva; font-size: 12px; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; text-align: auto; =
-khtml-text-decorations-in-effect: none; text-indent: 0px; =
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style=3D"font-size: 11px; ; font-family: Geneva; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Geneva; font-size: =
11px; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Geneva; =
font-size: 11px; ">--</span></span></div><div style=3D"font-size: 11px; =
; font-family: Geneva; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" =
style=3D"font-family: Geneva; font-size: 11px; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Geneva; font-size: =
11px; "><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Geneva; =
font-size: 11px; ">james woodyatt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:jhw@apple.com">jhw@apple.com</a>></span></span></span></div=
><div style=3D"font-size: 11px; ; font-family: Geneva; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"font-family: Geneva; font-size: =
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sat Mar 28 02:38:46 2009
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To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look 
From: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops@u-1.phicoh.com>
References: <1237854355.16613.46.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <200903251916.23679.remi@remlab.net> <49CA851B.2070005@free.fr> <200903252241.57649.remi@remlab.net> <20090326191108.fce4d1e8.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <alpine.BSF.2.00.0903261004520.25486@mignon.ki.iif.hu> <49CB682F.505@iglou.com> <49CBA567.3090901@free.fr> 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 26 Mar 2009 08:55:19 -0700 ." <49CBA567.3090901@free.fr> 
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>> There are many people (myself included) that are happily using 6to4, 
>> and we're using 6to4 because the ISPs available to us are utterly and 
>> completely clueless, so we don't really have any other option.  If the 
>> 6to4 anycast goes away and you require the ISP to deploy something for 
>> the replacement technology, you are effectively cutting us off from 
>> the IPv6 Internet for the foreseeable future.
>The point is that ISPs, rather than setting up a 6to4 relay router 
>should setup a 6rd Gateway in order to offer native IPv6 prefix to their 
>customers.

I wonder, what if ISPs who want to do an '6rd' like thing would announce
longer prefixes than just 2002::/16. For example an ISP who has customers
in an IPv4 /16 can announce 2002:xxyy::/32.

To me it seems like that would end the 2002::/16 blackhole problem for that
ISP's customers.


Philip Homburg


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From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
Cc: Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de, v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:53:05 +0100 (CET)
Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de wrote:
> 
> > Normally the customers are separated from each other by split horizont mchanisms and MAC adress translation techniques.
> 
> Yes, but that defeats the whole purpose of the proposal from Mark Smith if 
> I correctly interpret the scenario he proposed.
> 

Yes it would defeat it. The only reason I can think of to require hair
pinning of traffic between downstream on-link peer CPE is if your
default router is your traffic billing point, and you want to bill
(count) the traffic between those CPE. Otherwise you're
probably unnecessarily forcing a P2P model connectivity model (i.e.
an ATM ADSL backhaul model) onto a multi-access technology (an
Ethernet/ADSL backhaul model).

Regards,
Mark.


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sat Mar 28 03:41:05 2009
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To: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops@u-1.phicoh.com>
CC: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
References: <1237854355.16613.46.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <200903251916.23679.remi@remlab.net> <49CA851B.2070005@free.fr> <200903252241.57649.remi@remlab.net> <20090326191108.fce4d1e8.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <alpine.BSF.2.00.0903261004520.25486@mignon.ki.iif.hu> <49CB682F.505@iglou.com> <49CBA567.3090901@free.fr> <m1LnUuu-0001UVC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net>
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Philip Homburg wrote:
>>> There are many people (myself included) that are happily using 6to4, =

>>> and we're using 6to4 because the ISPs available to us are utterly and=
=20
>>> completely clueless, so we don't really have any other option.  If th=
e=20
>>> 6to4 anycast goes away and you require the ISP to deploy something fo=
r=20
>>> the replacement technology, you are effectively cutting us off from=20
>>> the IPv6 Internet for the foreseeable future.
>> The point is that ISPs, rather than setting up a 6to4 relay router=20
>> should setup a 6rd Gateway in order to offer native IPv6 prefix to the=
ir=20
>> customers.
>=20
> I wonder, what if ISPs who want to do an '6rd' like thing would announc=
e
> longer prefixes than just 2002::/16. For example an ISP who has custome=
rs
> in an IPv4 /16 can announce 2002:xxyy::/32.
>=20
> To me it seems like that would end the 2002::/16 blackhole problem for =
that
> ISP's customers.

And import the complete IPv4 routing table into the IPv6 routing table.
No thank you.

See the 6to4 RFC btw which discusses that.

Fortunately 2002::/16 orlonger is pretty well filtered.

Greets,
 Jeroen


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sat Mar 28 07:52:38 2009
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To: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look 
From: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops@u-1.phicoh.com>
References: <1237854355.16613.46.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <200903251916.23679.remi@remlab.net> <49CA851B.2070005@free.fr> <200903252241.57649.remi@remlab.net> <20090326191108.fce4d1e8.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <alpine.BSF.2.00.0903261004520.25486@mignon.ki.iif.hu> <49CB682F.505@iglou.com> <49CBA567.3090901@free.fr> <m1LnUuu-0001UVC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <49CDFE32.8090301@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:38:42 +0100 ." <49CDFE32.8090301@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> 
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In your letter dated Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:38:42 +0100 you wrote:
>And import the complete IPv4 routing table into the IPv6 routing table.
>No thank you.

No, instead of that, every ISP gets a completely new prefix, wastes a lot of
bits in that prefix (you need 32 bits for the IPv4 address),
and then adds it to the routing table. And you can't even give customers
the /48 they are supposed to get.

>Fortunately 2002::/16 orlonger is pretty well filtered.

You are saying that if an ISP gets a /32 from a RIR it is no problem, but a
2002::xxyy/32 suddenly is a problem?




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sat Mar 28 08:28:13 2009
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To: Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops@u-1.phicoh.com>
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Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
References: <1237854355.16613.46.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <200903251916.23679.remi@remlab.net> <49CA851B.2070005@free.fr> <200903252241.57649.remi@remlab.net> <20090326191108.fce4d1e8.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <alpine.BSF.2.00.0903261004520.25486@mignon.ki.iif.hu> <49CB682F.505@iglou.com> <49CBA567.3090901@free.fr> <m1LnUuu-0001UVC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <49CDFE32.8090301@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <m1LnZps-0001UwC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net>
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Philip Homburg wrote:
> In your letter dated Sat, 28 Mar 2009 11:38:42 +0100 you wrote:
>> And import the complete IPv4 routing table into the IPv6 routing table=
=2E
>> No thank you.
>=20
> No, instead of that, every ISP gets a completely new prefix, wastes a l=
ot of
> bits in that prefix (you need 32 bits for the IPv4 address),

6rd does NOT require that. Did you read Remi's draft? If an ISP has a
IPv4 /21 for their customers they want to IPv6 enable then they need
32-21 =3D 11 bits. Thus they need a /48 - 11 =3D /37 for their 6rd prefix=
=2E
Then every user gets a nice /48. Or what Free does, give a /56 which is
'good enough for endusers' and thus you only need a /56 - 11 =3D /45.
If they ISP has 5 IPv4 /21s they thus need 5x /45 for this trick.

That address space can later, when the users get real native v6 (if
ever) be re-allocated for other things.

Still only 1 /32 (or larger if the ISP was able to justify that) will be
visible in the IPv6 routing tables. Instead of 5 6to4 prefixes which
should not be there in the first place.

> and then adds it to the routing table. And you can't even give customer=
s
> the /48 they are supposed to get.
>=20
>> Fortunately 2002::/16 orlonger is pretty well filtered.
>=20
> You are saying that if an ISP gets a /32 from a RIR it is no problem, b=
ut a
> 2002::xxyy/32 suddenly is a problem?

Yes, as that is what the RFC specifies. As I wrote in my previous email
(and thus still a few lines above here) to avoid importing the IPv4
routing tables into IPv6. IPv6 !=3D IPv4.


Please actually read the 6to4 RFC and the 6rd draft.

Greets,
 Jeroen


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Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
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Philip Homburg wrote:
>> Fortunately 2002::/16 orlonger is pretty well filtered.

> You are saying that if an ISP gets a /32 from a RIR it is no problem, but a
> 2002::xxyy/32 suddenly is a problem?

Yes, because 2002::xxyy/32 or whatever, as a direct import of the IPv4 
routes results in much more routing table explosion than an ISP getting 
a /32.

The ISP that I used to work for is relatively small and has to inject 7 
IPv4 routes into the DFZ.  When they go with IPv6 (alas, they haven't 
started that work yet, to my knowledge...I keep poking, though), they'll 
have 1 that will provide them with IPv6 space for pretty much any 
anticipated needs long long into the future.
-- 
Jeff McAdams
jeffm@iglou.com


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sat Mar 28 10:43:17 2009
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Mark Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:53:05 +0100 (CET)
> Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de wrote:
>>
>>> Normally the customers are separated from each other by split horizont mchanisms and MAC adress translation techniques.
>> Yes, but that defeats the whole purpose of the proposal from Mark Smith if 
>> I correctly interpret the scenario he proposed.
>>
> 
> Yes it would defeat it. The only reason I can think of to require hair
> pinning of traffic between downstream on-link peer CPE is if your
> default router is your traffic billing point, and you want to bill
> (count) the traffic between those CPE. Otherwise you're
> probably unnecessarily forcing a P2P model connectivity model (i.e.
> an ATM ADSL backhaul model) onto a multi-access technology (an
> Ethernet/ADSL backhaul model).

Lawful Interception is another reason that a service provider may want 
all traffic from a subscriber aggregated to the default router.  There 
may be no way around this, depending on the LI requirements that are 
placed on the service provider, and where the logical interception point 
is (BNG vs. DSLAM).

aj


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Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
References: <1237854355.16613.46.camel@victoria-pingtel-com.us.nortel.com> <200903251916.23679.remi@remlab.net> <49CA851B.2070005@free.fr> <200903252241.57649.remi@remlab.net> <20090326191108.fce4d1e8.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <alpine.BSF.2.00.0903261004520.25486@mignon.ki.iif.hu> <49CB682F.505@iglou.com> <49CBA567.3090901@free.fr> <m1LnUuu-0001UVC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <49CDFE32.8090301@spaghetti.zurich.ibm.com> <m1LnZps-0001UwC@stereo.hq.phicoh.net> <49CE4DBA.7030107@iglou.com>
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On 2009-03-29 05:18, Jeff McAdams wrote:
> Philip Homburg wrote:
>>> Fortunately 2002::/16 orlonger is pretty well filtered.
> 
>> You are saying that if an ISP gets a /32 from a RIR it is no problem,
>> but a
>> 2002::xxyy/32 suddenly is a problem?
> 
> Yes, because 2002::xxyy/32 or whatever, as a direct import of the IPv4
> routes results in much more routing table explosion than an ISP getting
> a /32.
> 
> The ISP that I used to work for is relatively small and has to inject 7
> IPv4 routes into the DFZ.  When they go with IPv6 (alas, they haven't
> started that work yet, to my knowledge...I keep poking, though), they'll
> have 1 that will provide them with IPv6 space for pretty much any
> anticipated needs long long into the future.

Of course. But as Jeroen said, please read RFC3056. The only more-specifics
under 2002::/8 that make any sense whatsoever are /48, and there would
*potentially* be about 300,000 of them today, one per announced IPv4 network.
More specifics under 2002::/8 are very much not allowed. Mr R. Bush gave
us a very hard time about that before RFC3056 was approved.

My point was that the same danger applies to a NAT64 well-known prefix.
unless we carefully avoid it.

    Brian

     Brian


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sun Mar 29 17:20:51 2009
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Subject: draft-chown-v6ops-rogue-ra-03 WGLC
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This is to initiate a two week working group last call of draft-chown- 
v6ops-rogue-ra-03. Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling  
errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the author;  
if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or  
finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your  
comments to the list.

We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the  
document as well as its content. If you have read the document and  
believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important  
comment to make.


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sun Mar 29 18:07:49 2009
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:05:41 -0400
Message-ID: <35815C929B41D2479A224FE098A27227070BEB08@ecamlmw720.eamcs.ericsson.se>
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8F4@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <943C3A80-979F-4289-BA20-C17D20861111@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231557i618926bavff56f877c18eeee9@mail.gmail.com> <6161A3E1-DCD1-467F-9AD5-0A15821413A2@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com> <30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com> <925FA39D-42FC-4E3B-99C7-FA6E0DC7E0B7@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87D9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <49CBB0C9	.40908@gmail.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C883A6@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <49CD071D.6080405@gma! il.com>
From: "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
To: "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>, "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
Cc: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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Its fair to say that CPE Routers in general will not behave like routers
on their upstream link to the IP_Edge BNG node.

I would split this into two segments, a) The home CPE type Router and
b)Retail/Enterprise Router that is connected to two or more IP_Edge/BND
nodes. In case b) the use of some dynamic routing protocol would be
preferable and makes sense.

Alan K

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Brian E Carpenter
Sent: March 27, 2009 1:04 PM
To: Hemant Singh (shemant)
Cc: james woodyatt; IPv6 Operations; Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On 2009-03-28 05:10, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:
> Brain and others,
>=20
>> If the broadband forum people don't want a use case with direct=20
>> CPE-CPE communication, that's their choice, but we shouldn't=20
>> artificially restrict this in the base spec for CPEs, IMHO. We write=20
>> IPv6 basic standards; they apply them to their use cases.
>=20
> For past two days or so, we couldn't understand what scenario was
James talking about.  I and more folks thought one home to another home
communications were being discussed but actually what James was looking
at was a single home and this home's networking.  We also had a
disconnect with James because it wasn't told to us that there was a hub
sitting behind the broadband modem and then a CPE Rtr is behind the hub.
We assumed the CPE Rtr was directly connected to the broadband modem.
Now that all things are clarified and we know it's one single home being
discussed, we will look into common scenarios that Service Providers
have in mind and take it from there.

Yes, but if we conclude that it's desirable in general for CPE routers
to behave like routers on their upstream link, AND if some ISPs don't
want that, it should be a configuration issue to switch such behaviour
on or off. IMHO.

   Brian



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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:06:50 -0400
Message-ID: <35815C929B41D2479A224FE098A27227070BEB0A@ecamlmw720.eamcs.ericsson.se>
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8F4@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <943C3A80-979F-4289-BA20-C17D20861111@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231557i618926bavff56f877c18eeee9@mail.gmail.com> <6161A3E1-DCD1-467F-9AD5-0A15821413A2@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com> <30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com> <925FA39D-42FC-4E3B-99C7-FA6E0DC7E0B7@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87D9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <49CBB0C9	.40908@gmail.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C883A6@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <49CD071D.6080405@gma! ! !il.com > <B00EDD615 E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C88448@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105BE9746@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com>
From: "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
To: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>, "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>, "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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Yep, makes sense to me and that is what I also see :-)

Alan =20

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Templin, Fred L
Sent: March 27, 2009 4:10 PM
To: Hemant Singh (shemant); Brian E Carpenter
Cc: james woodyatt; IPv6 Operations; Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

Hemant,
=20
> [8.2.  Optional RIPng Support
> The CPE Router may support RIPng routing protocol [RFC2080] (Malkin,
G. and R. Minnear, "RIPng for
> IPv6," January 1997.) so that RIPng operates between the CPE Router
and the Service Provider network.
> RIPng has scaling and security implications for the Service Provider
network where one Service
> Provider router may terminate several tens of thousands of CPE
routers. However, RIPng does provide
> one solution from the CPE Router to the Service Provider network for
prefix route injection.]

I don't see it as necessary to run RIPng when the CPEs act as routers.
If we are willing to allow the CPEs to establish automatic IPv6-in-IPv4
tunnels across the provider network to a default IPv6 router, then the
CPEs can access the IPv6 Internet. If the default router knows of a more
direct path to the destination within the provider network, it can also
send an ICMP redirect. So, there is no IPv6 routing protocol but the
tens of thousands of customers still get to configure their CPE devices
as IPv6 routers.

This is exactly the VET model.

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com
=20
>=20
> Hemant
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 1:04 PM
> To: Hemant Singh (shemant)
> Cc: james woodyatt; IPv6 Operations; Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
> Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
>=20
> On 2009-03-28 05:10, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:
> > Brain and others,
> >
> >> If the broadband forum people don't want a use case with direct
CPE-CPE
> >> communication, that's their choice, but we shouldn't artificially=20
> >> restrict this in the base spec for CPEs, IMHO. We write IPv6 basic=20
> >> standards; they apply them to their use cases.
> >
> > For past two days or so, we couldn't understand what scenario was
James talking about.  I and more
> folks thought one home to another home communications were being
discussed but actually what James
> was looking at was a single home and this home's networking.  We also
had a disconnect with James
> because it wasn't told to us that there was a hub sitting behind the
broadband modem and then a CPE
> Rtr is behind the hub.  We assumed the CPE Rtr was directly connected
to the broadband modem. Now
> that all things are clarified and we know it's one single home being
discussed, we will look into
> common scenarios that Service Providers have in mind and take it from
there.
>=20
> Yes, but if we conclude that it's desirable in general for CPE routers

> to behave like routers on their upstream link, AND if some ISPs don't=20
> want that, it should be a configuration issue to switch such behaviour

> on or off. IMHO.
>=20
>    Brian



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Subject: RE: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:09:37 -0400
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com>	<2bbba3c10903231557i618926bavff56f877c18eeee9@mail.gmail.com>	<6161A3E1-DCD1-467F-9AD5-0A15821413A2@apple.com>	<2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com>	<EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com>	<2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com>	<30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com>	<BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com>	<9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com>	<B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com>	<C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com>	<20090326192455.dbcedfab.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>	<alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261049210.25843@uplift. swm.pp.s e>	<D83105B2AC38794CB78ADA2959F2C44F02EA2594@S4DE9JSAACY.ost.t-com.de>	<alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261752110.25843@uplift.swm.pp.se> <20090328200557.16d30bd9.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <49CE6126.6080609@sneep.n! et>
From: "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
To: "Alastair Johnson" <aj@sneep.net>, "Mark Smith" <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
Cc: "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se>, <Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Correct, and this is why SP's are not too keen to have routing localised
in the aggregation network before the BNG.=20

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Alastair Johnson
Sent: March 28, 2009 1:41 PM
To: Mark Smith
Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

Mark Smith wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:53:05 +0100 (CET) Mikael Abrahamsson=20
> <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
>=20
>> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de wrote:
>>
>>> Normally the customers are separated from each other by split
horizont mchanisms and MAC adress translation techniques.
>> Yes, but that defeats the whole purpose of the proposal from Mark=20
>> Smith if I correctly interpret the scenario he proposed.
>>
>=20
> Yes it would defeat it. The only reason I can think of to require hair

> pinning of traffic between downstream on-link peer CPE is if your=20
> default router is your traffic billing point, and you want to bill
> (count) the traffic between those CPE. Otherwise you're probably=20
> unnecessarily forcing a P2P model connectivity model (i.e.
> an ATM ADSL backhaul model) onto a multi-access technology (an=20
> Ethernet/ADSL backhaul model).

Lawful Interception is another reason that a service provider may want
all traffic from a subscriber aggregated to the default router.  There
may be no way around this, depending on the LI requirements that are
placed on the service provider, and where the logical interception point
is (BNG vs. DSLAM).

aj



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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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From: "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>, <wbeebee@cisco.com>, <jhw@apple.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Hmm, im a little bit confused here or just missing some of this
discussion, but what "routes" are you considering being advertised by
the BNG/IP_Edge node and what routes would be then advertised from the
WAN to the Home LAN network?
=20
Alan K

________________________________

From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Stark, Barbara
Sent: March 27, 2009 4:44 PM
To: wbeebee@cisco.com; jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: shemant@cisco.com
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments



It's not clear to me why manual configuration is specified as *the* way
to configure these routes (again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the access
network to the CPE Rtr WAN interface as a way to configure the routes).
I propose that if a CPE Rtr gets such routes from the WAN that it
automatically put those same route prefixes in its LAN RAs. In which
case it would not be off by default, but on by default (it would
automatically send specific route info if it has specific route info to
send).
Barbara

----- Original Message -----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org <owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant) <shemant@cisco.com>
Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

The new text for MSR's is as follows:

"8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.  Small
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have
configurable routing tables.  The CPE Router can communicate More
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific
prefixes configured through manual configuration.  Advertisement of MSRs
through RAs is turned off by default."

- Wes

-----Original Message-----
From: james woodyatt [mailto:jhw@apple.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:
>
> Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, now
> that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.  I am
> only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has been
> received on the WAN link with L=3D1.  No other cases are interesting.

I take it back.  It's interesting in the other cases as well.  Two CPE
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with MSR
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service provider
have PIO options in them.  As they should.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering





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<HTML><HEAD><TITLE>Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments</TITLE>
<META http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=3D"text/html; =
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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D732521601-30032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Hmm, im a little bit confused here or just =
missing some of=20
this discussion, but what "routes" are you considering being advertised =
by the=20
BNG/IP_Edge node and what routes would be then advertised from the WAN =
to the=20
Home LAN network?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D732521601-30032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D732521601-30032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Alan K</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20
[mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] <B>On Behalf Of </B>Stark,=20
Barbara<BR><B>Sent:</B> March 27, 2009 4:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B> =
wbeebee@cisco.com;=20
jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
shemant@cisco.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04=20
comments<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV><!-- Converted from text/plain format -->
<P><FONT size=3D2>It's not clear to me why manual configuration is =
specified as=20
*the* way to configure these routes (again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the =
access=20
network to the CPE Rtr WAN interface as a way to configure the routes). =
I=20
propose that if a CPE Rtr gets such routes from the WAN that it =
automatically=20
put those same route prefixes in its LAN RAs. In which case it would not =
be off=20
by default, but on by default (it would automatically send specific =
route info=20
if it has specific route info to send).<BR>Barbara<BR><BR>----- Original =
Message=20
-----<BR>From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org =
&lt;owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<BR>To:=20
james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;; IPv6 Operations=20
&lt;v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<BR>Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant)=20
&lt;shemant@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009<BR>Subject: =
RE:=20
draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments<BR><BR>The new text for MSR's =
is as=20
follows:<BR><BR>"8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)<BR>The CPE Router =
MAY=20
support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.&nbsp; Small<BR>consumer embedded=20
multi-homed hosts in the home may not have<BR>configurable routing =
tables.&nbsp;=20
The CPE Router can communicate More<BR>Specific Routes (MSRs) to these =
hosts to=20
allow them to choose a<BR>preferred router to send traffic to for =
traffic=20
destined to specific<BR>prefixes configured through manual =
configuration.&nbsp;=20
Advertisement of MSRs<BR>through RAs is turned off by default."<BR><BR>- =

Wes<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: james woodyatt [<A=20
href=3D"mailto:jhw@apple.com">mailto:jhw@apple.com</A>]<BR>Sent: =
Wednesday, March=20
25, 2009 7:17 PM<BR>To: IPv6 Operations<BR>Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); =
Wes=20
Beebee (wbeebee)<BR>Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04=20
comments<BR><BR>On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt =
wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, =
now<BR>&gt;=20
that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.&nbsp; I=20
am<BR>&gt; only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO =
has=20
been<BR>&gt; received on the WAN link with L=3D1.&nbsp; No other cases =
are=20
interesting.<BR><BR>I take it back.&nbsp; It's interesting in the other =
cases as=20
well.&nbsp; Two CPE<BR>routers attached to the same link will exchange =
their=20
prefixes with MSR<BR>advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from =
the=20
service provider<BR>have PIO options in them.&nbsp; As they=20
should.<BR><BR><BR>--<BR>james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;<BR>member =
of=20
technical staff, communications =
engineering<BR><BR><BR><BR></FONT></P><!--[object_id=3D#att.com#]-->
<P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
face=3DTahoma=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>*****</FONT></P>
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From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
Cc: "Alastair Johnson" <aj@sneep.net>, "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se>, <Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com> <30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com> <20090326192455.dbcedfab.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261049210.25843@uplift. swm.pp.s e> <D83105B2AC38794CB78ADA2959F2C44F02EA2594@S4DE9JSAACY.ost.t-com.de> <alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261752110.25843@uplift.swm.pp.se> <20090328200557.16d30bd9.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <49CE6126.6080609@sneep.n! et> <35815C929B41D2479A224FE098A27227070BEB0C@ecamlmw720.eamcs.ericsson.se>
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Hi Alan,

On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:09:37 -0400
"Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com> wrote:

> Correct, and this is why SP's are not too keen to have routing localised
> in the aggregation network before the BNG. 
> 

I'd have thought they should be keen to avoid that, unless all of their
customers are all under or likely to all under surveilence at the same
time!

The technical requirement of LI is that traffic has pass the
interception point. As the majority of people are honest, it seems to
me that optimising the topology to pass the interception point, rather
than for best throughput and lower latency, is wasteful, and an unfair
performance and ultimately a network capex and opex cost burden on
those subscribers who aren't under surveilence, and may never be. Only
traffic that is to be lawfully intercepted should be forced past this
interception point, if it doesn't already naturally traverse it.

Some topologies would inherently make the BNG the best traffic
interception point e.g. wholesale broadband aggregation via L2TP.
However, for other topologies (e.g. a single VLAN interconnecting
customers' ADSL routers, and an upstream default router for access to
the Internet/other services), traffic can travel direct between
subscribers / their CPE, as the CPEs have an on-link peer relationship.
Should lawful interception be required, either that on-link path could
be changed to traverse the interception point (e.g., by mechanisms
such as forced forwarding), or better yet, the interception point be the
suspect subscriber's point of interconnection i.e. the specific ADSL
service that they're using - as all their traffic is naturally going to
traverse that point.

If an SP wants to have a topology that has all traffic traversing the
BNG, or is forced to because of a legal requirement, that's fine.
My argument is that other SPs won't have this requirement so they
shouldn't also be forced to adopt this LI optimal topology - they
should have the freedom to implement a topology optimised for
throughput and low latency.

So, getting back to the discussion point, I think there would be
value in having a mechanism where downstream CPE can be informed of
on-link peer-CPE's assigned prefixes, without the CPE themselves having
to trust each other's announcements. An idea I had a while back was a
"prefix redirect", similar to an ND host redirect, issued by, and only
accepted from, the upstream on-link default router. Not quite as
optimal as the CPE themselves announcing their prefixes via a routing
protocol, but it would be more scalable - the CPE would only be
maintaining topological knowledge for destinations they're currently
using, rather than for all the destinations they can reach via on-link
peer CPE.

Regards,
Mark.


> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Alastair Johnson
> Sent: March 28, 2009 1:41 PM
> To: Mark Smith
> Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
> 
> Mark Smith wrote:
> > On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:53:05 +0100 (CET) Mikael Abrahamsson 
> > <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
> > 
> >> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de wrote:
> >>
> >>> Normally the customers are separated from each other by split
> horizont mchanisms and MAC adress translation techniques.
> >> Yes, but that defeats the whole purpose of the proposal from Mark 
> >> Smith if I correctly interpret the scenario he proposed.
> >>
> > 
> > Yes it would defeat it. The only reason I can think of to require hair
> 
> > pinning of traffic between downstream on-link peer CPE is if your 
> > default router is your traffic billing point, and you want to bill
> > (count) the traffic between those CPE. Otherwise you're probably 
> > unnecessarily forcing a P2P model connectivity model (i.e.
> > an ATM ADSL backhaul model) onto a multi-access technology (an 
> > Ethernet/ADSL backhaul model).
> 
> Lawful Interception is another reason that a service provider may want
> all traffic from a subscriber aggregated to the default router.  There
> may be no way around this, depending on the LI requirements that are
> placed on the service provider, and where the logical interception point
> is (BNG vs. DSLAM).
> 
> aj
> 
> 


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 30 06:41:38 2009
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:37:32 -0400
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From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
To: "Antonio Querubin" <tony@lava.net>, "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
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A cable modem can have an embedded CPE Router - known as an eRouter in
CableLabs parlance.  If the user desires wireless (802.11) connectivity
in their home, they may also buy a Wireless Access Point, which also is
typically a CPE router, and connect the two together.   This is a very
simple, and common, expected deployment (millions of people may have
this in the future), which requires cascading of CPE Routers.

- Wes=20

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Antonio Querubin
Sent: Friday, March 27, 2009 5:02 PM
To: Stark, Barbara
Cc: swmike@swm.pp.se; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Stark, Barbara wrote:

> That's an interesting use case, with definite application, but I=20
> wonder if it's really compelling in the case of the simple CPE Router.
>
> When CPE Routers are cascaded, the cascaded router is generally=20
> directly connected to the upstream router, so that there would be no=20
> added efficiencies from this.

I don't think it's that uncommon.  I've seen households, small
businesses, churches, etc that have multiple routers/switches/WAP
devices scattered throughout the home or their buildings/offices.  While
these types of deployments do not represent a very large percentage of
how these devices are being used, I think we'll see more and more of
these devices being cascaded together just for the addition of ports or
access points.  The cost difference between a switch-only device vs a
router is so minimal that many consumers opt for the latter even though
all they really need is another switch in most cases.  Few of these
entities have IT staff to advise them otherwise, nevermind efficiency.
Last time I browsed the network section of a computer store, I saw as
many wireless devices with built-in routers vs just standalone
WAPs/switches.  Same for the firewall/NAT devices.

Changing the topic slightly, it seems to me that one of the big
challenges for the CPER is determining how the prefix sub-delegation
behaviour should be when you do have cascaded devices.  Current IPv4
devices just avoid the issue by doing NAT upon NAT.  If IPv6 frees users
from limits on addresses and subnets then the CPER behaviour should be
designed to automatically handle the partitioning of the SP-delegated
/56 or /48 among 2 or more downstream CPERs.  Should we try to spell out
a recommended behaviour in more detail or are we gonna leave that up to
vendor implementation?

Antonio Querubin
whois:  AQ7-ARIN



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 30 07:08:58 2009
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Subject: RE: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:08:02 -0400
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com><2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com><EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com><2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com><30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com><BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com><9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com><B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com><C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com><20090326192455.dbcedfab.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org><alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261049210.25843@uplift. swm.pp.s e><D83105B2AC38794CB78ADA2959F2C44F02EA2594@S4DE9JSAACY.ost.t-com.de><alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261752110.25843@uplift.swm.pp.se><20090328200557.16d30bd9.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org><49CE6126.6080609@sneep.n! et><35815C929B41D2479A224FE098A27227070BEB0C@ecamlmw720.eamcs.ericsson.se> <20090330201805.d06e859f.ipng@69706e6720323030352 d30312d31340a.nosens e.org>
From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Mark Smith" <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>, "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
CC: "Alastair Johnson" <aj@sneep.net>, "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se>, <Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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My remembrance of why SPs aren't keen to localize routing is quite
different.
Originally, cable operators had neighbors all on the same Ethernet
network. Neighbors were able to discover each other's computers and
printers (this was before routers were common), and sometimes sniff each
other's traffic. This was considered a bad thing, from a customer
security and privacy standpoint. Telco providers decided that they did
not want to it this way, and effectively made Ethernet connections from
customers "point-to-point" to an element in the access network.=20

Today, the access network elements are able to detect a lot of malware
traffic (especially DDoS attacks), and disconnect customers that are
infected with malware that presents a security / privacy /
performance-impacting risk to others. Unfortunately, this is not an
infrequent occurrence. If customer traffic were somehow able to bypass
these network elements, it would open up neighbors to attacks by
infected neighbors. That would be a very bad thing.

Furthermore, in general, there just isn't that much neighbor-to-neighbor
communication, that would make the savings outweigh the cost of
implementation. The only neighbor my home trades a lot of traffic with
(my kids and their kids, gaming) is on a separate network, since we use
different service providers.

Lack of cost justification and security concerns are the reasons why SPs
are unlikely to localize traffic within the access network, for general
consumers.
Barbara

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Mark Smith
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 5:48 AM
> To: Alan Kavanagh
> Cc: Alastair Johnson; Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de;
> v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
>=20
> Hi Alan,
>=20
> On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:09:37 -0400
> "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
> > Correct, and this is why SP's are not too keen to have routing
> localised
> > in the aggregation network before the BNG.
> >
>=20
> I'd have thought they should be keen to avoid that, unless all of
their
> customers are all under or likely to all under surveilence at the same
> time!
>=20
> The technical requirement of LI is that traffic has pass the
> interception point. As the majority of people are honest, it seems to
> me that optimising the topology to pass the interception point, rather
> than for best throughput and lower latency, is wasteful, and an unfair
> performance and ultimately a network capex and opex cost burden on
> those subscribers who aren't under surveilence, and may never be. Only
> traffic that is to be lawfully intercepted should be forced past this
> interception point, if it doesn't already naturally traverse it.
>=20
> Some topologies would inherently make the BNG the best traffic
> interception point e.g. wholesale broadband aggregation via L2TP.
> However, for other topologies (e.g. a single VLAN interconnecting
> customers' ADSL routers, and an upstream default router for access to
> the Internet/other services), traffic can travel direct between
> subscribers / their CPE, as the CPEs have an on-link peer
relationship.
> Should lawful interception be required, either that on-link path could
> be changed to traverse the interception point (e.g., by mechanisms
> such as forced forwarding), or better yet, the interception point be
> the
> suspect subscriber's point of interconnection i.e. the specific ADSL
> service that they're using - as all their traffic is naturally going
to
> traverse that point.
>=20
> If an SP wants to have a topology that has all traffic traversing the
> BNG, or is forced to because of a legal requirement, that's fine.
> My argument is that other SPs won't have this requirement so they
> shouldn't also be forced to adopt this LI optimal topology - they
> should have the freedom to implement a topology optimised for
> throughput and low latency.
>=20
> So, getting back to the discussion point, I think there would be
> value in having a mechanism where downstream CPE can be informed of
> on-link peer-CPE's assigned prefixes, without the CPE themselves
having
> to trust each other's announcements. An idea I had a while back was a
> "prefix redirect", similar to an ND host redirect, issued by, and only
> accepted from, the upstream on-link default router. Not quite as
> optimal as the CPE themselves announcing their prefixes via a routing
> protocol, but it would be more scalable - the CPE would only be
> maintaining topological knowledge for destinations they're currently
> using, rather than for all the destinations they can reach via on-link
> peer CPE.
>=20
> Regards,
> Mark.
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Alastair Johnson
> > Sent: March 28, 2009 1:41 PM
> > To: Mark Smith
> > Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
> >
> > Mark Smith wrote:
> > > On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:53:05 +0100 (CET) Mikael Abrahamsson
> > > <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Normally the customers are separated from each other by split
> > horizont mchanisms and MAC adress translation techniques.
> > >> Yes, but that defeats the whole purpose of the proposal from Mark
> > >> Smith if I correctly interpret the scenario he proposed.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Yes it would defeat it. The only reason I can think of to require
> hair
> >
> > > pinning of traffic between downstream on-link peer CPE is if your
> > > default router is your traffic billing point, and you want to bill
> > > (count) the traffic between those CPE. Otherwise you're probably
> > > unnecessarily forcing a P2P model connectivity model (i.e.
> > > an ATM ADSL backhaul model) onto a multi-access technology (an
> > > Ethernet/ADSL backhaul model).
> >
> > Lawful Interception is another reason that a service provider may
> want
> > all traffic from a subscriber aggregated to the default router.
> There
> > may be no way around this, depending on the LI requirements that are
> > placed on the service provider, and where the logical interception
> point
> > is (BNG vs. DSLAM).
> >
> > aj
> >
> >


*****

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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 11:08:46 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Barbara,

=20

>This is non-normative language, in the abstract of RFC 4191. Normative
references to RFC 4191 purely apply to the protocol, and do not apply to
non-normative statements in that RFC about how one might or might not
configure the elements of that protocol. The goal >of not having too
many routes advertised is worthy, and does need to be given serious
consideration in the design of any algorithm that would derive the
routes in an automated manner.

=20

Sure, we can grant you that the Abstract is non-normative language .
However, there is still Normative language in section 4 for RFC 4191 I
have shown below.

=20

[The preference values (both Default Router Preferences and Route

 Preferences) SHOULD NOT be routing metrics or automatically derived

 from metrics: the preference values SHOULD be configured.]

=20

 A minor point first.  When did any admin automate configuration of RA
on a router?  Since an RA is manually configured on a router it makes
sense to manually configure any extensions to the RA like the MSR.
Anyhow, as I said before, the SP doesn't even have all the routing and
prefix information available for what's what multi-homed devices will be
deployed in the home, the MSR cannot even be derived by the SP, let
alone the SP automating derivation and sending of the MSR.

=20

Hemant

=20

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>This is non-normative language, in the abstract of RFC =
4191.
Normative references to RFC 4191 purely apply to the protocol, and do =
not apply
to non-normative statements in that RFC about how one might or might not
configure the elements of that protocol. The goal </span><span
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
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style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497=
D'>of
not having too many routes advertised is worthy, and does need to be =
given
serious consideration in the design of any algorithm that would derive =
the
routes in an automated manner.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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color:#1F497D'>Sure, we can grant you that the Abstract is non-normative
language .&nbsp;&nbsp; However, there is still Normative language in =
section 4
for RFC 4191 I have shown below.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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preference values (both Default Router Preferences and =
Route<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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SHOULD NOT be routing metrics or automatically =
derived<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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metrics: the preference values SHOULD be =
configured.]<o:p></o:p></span></p>

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New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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color:#1F497D'>&nbsp;A minor point first.&nbsp; When did any admin =
automate
configuration of RA on a router?&nbsp; Since an RA is manually =
configured on a
router it makes sense to manually configure any extensions to the RA =
like the
MSR.&nbsp;&nbsp; Anyhow, as I said before, the SP doesn&#8217;t even =
have all
the routing and prefix information available for what&#8217;s what =
multi-homed
devices will be deployed in the home, the MSR cannot even be derived by =
the SP,
let alone the SP automating derivation and sending of the =
MSR.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <0DD150BF-77BC-4527-BD35-9202F94496E0@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8C2@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <95F8ED8E-261B-437C-8063-223D345C364B@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C0D8F4@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <943C3A80-979F-4289-BA20-C17D20861111@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231557i618926bavff56f877c18eeee9@mail.gmail.com> <6161A3E1-DCD1-467F-9AD5-0A15821413A2@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com> <30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com> <925FA39D-42FC-4E3B-99C7-FA6E0DC7E0B7@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFC BA910CF7 E1D06C87D9C@ xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA0D880CA8@crexc41p> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C883C1@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA0D880F0B@crexc41p>
From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>, "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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>> Also, what node are you talking about
>> when you say "static routes in routing table"?  The host or the home=20
>> router?  I think you mean host, but still it good to make such things

>> clear.
><barbara> No, I meant the router. The SP has no ability to statically
configure the hosts, just the SP router. </barbara>

Even if the SP doesn't have any ability to statically configure the
hosts, if an SP has a dedicated static IP address to a home, it is also
routine that the SP calls the home user and have the home user configure
anything static on the home PC including the IP address and any static
routes.  I personally went thru such a exercise with MCI/Worldcom for a
dedicated static IP address in my home via DSL seven years back.
Further, if any SP has more than one Internet connection to a single
home, then even if the SP cannot configure any host in the home, the
home user himself/herself has to configure various static routes to
selectively forward traffic out of the home via more than one Internet
connection.  That is the whole point of the discussion that if an SP
gives a home more than one Internet connection, the hosts in the home
would also have to have configure the selective routes - statically or
if IPv6 is used, one tool is MSR. =20

Hemant



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Subject: RE: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:44:15 -0700
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com><2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com><EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com><2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com><30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com><BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com><9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com><B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com><C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com><20090326192455.dbcedfab.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org><alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261049210.25843@uplift. swm.pp.s e><D83105B2AC38794CB78ADA2959F2C44F02EA2594@S4DE9JSAACY.ost.t-com.de><alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261752110.25843@uplift.swm.pp.se><20090328200557.16d30bd9.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org><49CE6126.6080609@sneep.n!et><35815C929B41D2479A224FE098A27227070BEB0C@ecamlmw720.eamcs.ericsson.se> <20090330201805.d06e859f.ipng@69706e6720323030352! d30312d31 340a.nosense.org>
From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
To: "Mark Smith" <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>, "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
Cc: "Alastair Johnson" <aj@sneep.net>, "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se>, <Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Mark/Alan,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Smith
[mailto:ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org]
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 2:48 AM
> To: Alan Kavanagh
> Cc: Alastair Johnson; Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de;
v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
>=20
> Hi Alan,
>=20
> On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:09:37 -0400
> "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
> > Correct, and this is why SP's are not too keen to have routing
localised
> > in the aggregation network before the BNG.
> >
>=20
> I'd have thought they should be keen to avoid that, unless all of
their
> customers are all under or likely to all under surveilence at the same
> time!
>=20
> The technical requirement of LI is that traffic has pass the
> interception point. As the majority of people are honest, it seems to
> me that optimising the topology to pass the interception point, rather
> than for best throughput and lower latency, is wasteful, and an unfair
> performance and ultimately a network capex and opex cost burden on
> those subscribers who aren't under surveilence, and may never be. Only
> traffic that is to be lawfully intercepted should be forced past this
> interception point, if it doesn't already naturally traverse it.

I don't mind keeping all flows from CPE_1 to CPE_2 going
through the provider's default router, and that is in fact
a perfectly legitimate deployment scenario for VET. But,
if we want CPE_1 to CPE_2 route optimization, there needs
to be some way for them to establish a trust basis.=20
=20
> Some topologies would inherently make the BNG the best traffic
> interception point e.g. wholesale broadband aggregation via L2TP.
> However, for other topologies (e.g. a single VLAN interconnecting
> customers' ADSL routers, and an upstream default router for access to
> the Internet/other services), traffic can travel direct between
> subscribers / their CPE, as the CPEs have an on-link peer
relationship.
> Should lawful interception be required, either that on-link path could
> be changed to traverse the interception point (e.g., by mechanisms
> such as forced forwarding), or better yet, the interception point be
the
> suspect subscriber's point of interconnection i.e. the specific ADSL
> service that they're using - as all their traffic is naturally going
to
> traverse that point.
>=20
> If an SP wants to have a topology that has all traffic traversing the
> BNG, or is forced to because of a legal requirement, that's fine.
> My argument is that other SPs won't have this requirement so they
> shouldn't also be forced to adopt this LI optimal topology - they
> should have the freedom to implement a topology optimised for
> throughput and low latency.
>=20
> So, getting back to the discussion point, I think there would be
> value in having a mechanism where downstream CPE can be informed of
> on-link peer-CPE's assigned prefixes, without the CPE themselves
having
> to trust each other's announcements. An idea I had a while back was a
> "prefix redirect", similar to an ND host redirect, issued by, and only
> accepted from, the upstream on-link default router. Not quite as
> optimal as the CPE themselves announcing their prefixes via a routing
> protocol, but it would be more scalable - the CPE would only be
> maintaining topological knowledge for destinations they're currently
> using, rather than for all the destinations they can reach via on-link
> peer CPE.

VET provides exactly such a mechanism. When CPE_1 gets
a redirect from the provider's default router, it can
send credentials (including proof of prefix ownership)
forward to CPE_2. In the reverse path, CPE_2 can send
its credentials to CPE_1. Sure, it's asymmetric - but
it gets the job done.

Fred
fred.l.templin@boeing.com
=20
> Regards,
> Mark.
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Alastair Johnson
> > Sent: March 28, 2009 1:41 PM
> > To: Mark Smith
> > Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
> >
> > Mark Smith wrote:
> > > On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:53:05 +0100 (CET) Mikael Abrahamsson
> > > <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Normally the customers are separated from each other by split
> > horizont mchanisms and MAC adress translation techniques.
> > >> Yes, but that defeats the whole purpose of the proposal from Mark
> > >> Smith if I correctly interpret the scenario he proposed.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Yes it would defeat it. The only reason I can think of to require
hair
> >
> > > pinning of traffic between downstream on-link peer CPE is if your
> > > default router is your traffic billing point, and you want to bill
> > > (count) the traffic between those CPE. Otherwise you're probably
> > > unnecessarily forcing a P2P model connectivity model (i.e.
> > > an ATM ADSL backhaul model) onto a multi-access technology (an
> > > Ethernet/ADSL backhaul model).
> >
> > Lawful Interception is another reason that a service provider may
want
> > all traffic from a subscriber aggregated to the default router.
There
> > may be no way around this, depending on the LI requirements that are
> > placed on the service provider, and where the logical interception
point
> > is (BNG vs. DSLAM).
> >
> > aj
> >
> >



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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:40:00 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>, "Brian E Carpenter" <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Cc: "james woodyatt" <jhw@apple.com>, "IPv6 Operations" <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
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Alan,

I don't understand your case (b) below.  If a single CPE Rtr in case (b)
is connected to, say, two different L3 first hop addresses (on one or
more SP routers), since both WAN interfaces on the CPE Rtr reside in one
device the internals of the device can forward traffic between the two
WAN interface and the device LAN interfaces.  Why would we need routing
between internals of the device?  Sure, if more than one CPE Rtr device
resides in a single home, I have already said, the two CPE Rtrs in the
home should use RIPng to share route information.

Also, since we have already said RIPng is optional on the WAN interface
of the CPE Rtr, I don't know what else to say.  If a deployment does not
want to use RIPng between the CPE Router WAN interface and the SP, that
is already included in the CPE Rtr document.  The same document also
discusses using RIPng on the WAN interface has scaling implications on
the SP L3 edge facing the home.  So the email Fred said about thousands
of devices is already something that I have replied to.

Hemant

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan Kavanagh [mailto:alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com]=20
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 9:06 PM
To: Brian E Carpenter; Hemant Singh (shemant)
Cc: james woodyatt; IPv6 Operations; Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

Its fair to say that CPE Routers in general will not behave like routers
on their upstream link to the IP_Edge BNG node.

I would split this into two segments, a) The home CPE type Router and
b)Retail/Enterprise Router that is connected to two or more IP_Edge/BND
nodes. In case b) the use of some dynamic routing protocol would be
preferable and makes sense.

Alan K



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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:48:42 -0400
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>, "Antonio Querubin" <tony@lava.net>, "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
Cc: <swmike@swm.pp.se>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>, "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
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BTW, I expect even DSL folks will have an embedded CPE Router inside a
DSL modem.  Of course, both cable and DSL deployments can also go with
an external CPE Rtr that is standalone and not combined in one device
for both modem and router.  I would like folks to note that our draft
doesn't care.  We have defined a router specification that can be
embedded in a broadband modem or be used to build a standalone CPE
Router.  We have made such facts clear in our document.

Thanks,

Hemant

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 9:38 AM
To: Antonio Querubin; Stark, Barbara
Cc: swmike@swm.pp.se; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

A cable modem can have an embedded CPE Router - known as an eRouter in
CableLabs parlance.  If the user desires wireless (802.11) connectivity
in their home, they may also buy a Wireless Access Point, which also is
typically a CPE router, and connect the two together.   This is a very
simple, and common, expected deployment (millions of people may have
this in the future), which requires cascading of CPE Routers.

- Wes=20


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Subject: RE: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:59:18 -0400
Message-ID: <35815C929B41D2479A224FE098A27227070BF00B@ecamlmw720.eamcs.ericsson.se>
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com><2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com><EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com><2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com><30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com><BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com><9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com><B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com><C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com><20090326192455.dbcedfab.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org><alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261049210.25843@uplift. swm.pp.s e><D83105B2AC38794CB78ADA2959F2C44F02EA2594@S4DE9JSAACY.ost.t-com.de><alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261752110.25843@uplift.swm.pp.se><20090328200557.16d30bd9.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org><49CE6126.6080609@sneep.n! et><35815C929B41D2479A224FE098A27227070BEB0C@ecamlmw720.eamcs.ericsson.se> <20090330201805.d06e859f.ipng@69706e672032303035! 2 d30312d 31340a.nosen se.org> <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA0DA1B731@crexc41p>
From: "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>, "Mark Smith" <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
Cc: "Alastair Johnson" <aj@sneep.net>, "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se>, <Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Yes, agree on this that is the other reason why Fixed Broad Band SP's
ensure traffic to seperated and all traffic is routed to the BNG and I
don't see this changing.

Alan=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Stark, Barbara [mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
Sent: March 30, 2009 7:08 AM
To: Mark Smith; Alan Kavanagh
Cc: Alastair Johnson; Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de;
v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

My remembrance of why SPs aren't keen to localize routing is quite
different.
Originally, cable operators had neighbors all on the same Ethernet
network. Neighbors were able to discover each other's computers and
printers (this was before routers were common), and sometimes sniff each
other's traffic. This was considered a bad thing, from a customer
security and privacy standpoint. Telco providers decided that they did
not want to it this way, and effectively made Ethernet connections from
customers "point-to-point" to an element in the access network.=20

Today, the access network elements are able to detect a lot of malware
traffic (especially DDoS attacks), and disconnect customers that are
infected with malware that presents a security / privacy /
performance-impacting risk to others. Unfortunately, this is not an
infrequent occurrence. If customer traffic were somehow able to bypass
these network elements, it would open up neighbors to attacks by
infected neighbors. That would be a very bad thing.

Furthermore, in general, there just isn't that much neighbor-to-neighbor
communication, that would make the savings outweigh the cost of
implementation. The only neighbor my home trades a lot of traffic with
(my kids and their kids, gaming) is on a separate network, since we use
different service providers.

Lack of cost justification and security concerns are the reasons why SPs
are unlikely to localize traffic within the access network, for general
consumers.
Barbara

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On=20
> Behalf Of Mark Smith
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 5:48 AM
> To: Alan Kavanagh
> Cc: Alastair Johnson; Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de;=20
> v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
>=20
> Hi Alan,
>=20
> On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:09:37 -0400
> "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com> wrote:
>=20
> > Correct, and this is why SP's are not too keen to have routing
> localised
> > in the aggregation network before the BNG.
> >
>=20
> I'd have thought they should be keen to avoid that, unless all of
their
> customers are all under or likely to all under surveilence at the same

> time!
>=20
> The technical requirement of LI is that traffic has pass the=20
> interception point. As the majority of people are honest, it seems to=20
> me that optimising the topology to pass the interception point, rather

> than for best throughput and lower latency, is wasteful, and an unfair

> performance and ultimately a network capex and opex cost burden on=20
> those subscribers who aren't under surveilence, and may never be. Only

> traffic that is to be lawfully intercepted should be forced past this=20
> interception point, if it doesn't already naturally traverse it.
>=20
> Some topologies would inherently make the BNG the best traffic=20
> interception point e.g. wholesale broadband aggregation via L2TP.
> However, for other topologies (e.g. a single VLAN interconnecting=20
> customers' ADSL routers, and an upstream default router for access to=20
> the Internet/other services), traffic can travel direct between=20
> subscribers / their CPE, as the CPEs have an on-link peer
relationship.
> Should lawful interception be required, either that on-link path could

> be changed to traverse the interception point (e.g., by mechanisms=20
> such as forced forwarding), or better yet, the interception point be=20
> the suspect subscriber's point of interconnection i.e. the specific=20
> ADSL service that they're using - as all their traffic is naturally=20
> going
to
> traverse that point.
>=20
> If an SP wants to have a topology that has all traffic traversing the=20
> BNG, or is forced to because of a legal requirement, that's fine.
> My argument is that other SPs won't have this requirement so they=20
> shouldn't also be forced to adopt this LI optimal topology - they=20
> should have the freedom to implement a topology optimised for=20
> throughput and low latency.
>=20
> So, getting back to the discussion point, I think there would be value

> in having a mechanism where downstream CPE can be informed of on-link=20
> peer-CPE's assigned prefixes, without the CPE themselves
having
> to trust each other's announcements. An idea I had a while back was a=20
> "prefix redirect", similar to an ND host redirect, issued by, and only

> accepted from, the upstream on-link default router. Not quite as=20
> optimal as the CPE themselves announcing their prefixes via a routing=20
> protocol, but it would be more scalable - the CPE would only be=20
> maintaining topological knowledge for destinations they're currently=20
> using, rather than for all the destinations they can reach via on-link

> peer CPE.
>=20
> Regards,
> Mark.
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On=20
> > Behalf Of Alastair Johnson
> > Sent: March 28, 2009 1:41 PM
> > To: Mark Smith
> > Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
> >
> > Mark Smith wrote:
> > > On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:53:05 +0100 (CET) Mikael Abrahamsson=20
> > > <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> Normally the customers are separated from each other by split
> > horizont mchanisms and MAC adress translation techniques.
> > >> Yes, but that defeats the whole purpose of the proposal from Mark

> > >> Smith if I correctly interpret the scenario he proposed.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Yes it would defeat it. The only reason I can think of to require
> hair
> >
> > > pinning of traffic between downstream on-link peer CPE is if your=20
> > > default router is your traffic billing point, and you want to bill
> > > (count) the traffic between those CPE. Otherwise you're probably=20
> > > unnecessarily forcing a P2P model connectivity model (i.e.
> > > an ATM ADSL backhaul model) onto a multi-access technology (an=20
> > > Ethernet/ADSL backhaul model).
> >
> > Lawful Interception is another reason that a service provider may
> want
> > all traffic from a subscriber aggregated to the default router.
> There
> > may be no way around this, depending on the LI requirements that are

> > placed on the service provider, and where the logical interception
> point
> > is (BNG vs. DSLAM).
> >
> > aj
> >
> >


*****

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Subject: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security should not be a BCP
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
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I thought before this document moves to a Last Call, it should change to
Informational.   None of the information in this document can be
considered to be current practice, let alone be "best practice" because
security from this document hasn't been implemented yet in an IPv6 home
router by multiple vendors, let alone be considered as security that is
widely deployed and hence be best practice.=20

=20

Hemant


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<p class=3DMsoNormal>I thought before this document moves to a Last =
Call, it
should change to Informational.&nbsp; &nbsp;None of the information in =
this
document can be considered to be current practice, let alone be =
&#8220;best
practice&#8221; because security from this document hasn&#8217;t been
implemented yet in an IPv6 home router by multiple vendors, let alone be
considered as security that is widely deployed and hence be best =
practice. <o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>Hemant<o:p></o:p></p>

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Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security should not be a BCP
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I think that may actually be an outcome of the last call. But your =20
point is well taken.

On Mar 30, 2009, at 11:40 AM, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:

> I thought before this document moves to a Last Call, it should =20
> change to Informational.   None of the information in this document =20=

> can be considered to be current practice, let alone be =93best =20
> practice=94 because security from this document hasn=92t been =20
> implemented yet in an IPv6 home router by multiple vendors, let =20
> alone be considered as security that is widely deployed and hence be =20=

> best practice.
>
> Hemant


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<html><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">I think that may actually be an =
outcome of the last call. But your point is well =
taken.<div><br><div><div>On Mar 30, 2009, at 11:40 AM, Hemant Singh =
(shemant) wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><span class=3D"Apple-style-span" style=3D"border-collapse: =
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margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; margin-left: 0in; font-size: =
11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; ">I thought before this document =
moves to a Last Call, it should change to Informational.&nbsp; =
&nbsp;None of the information in this document can be considered to be =
current practice, let alone be =93best practice=94 because security from =
this document hasn=92t been implemented yet in an IPv6 home router by =
multiple vendors, let alone be considered as security that is widely =
deployed and hence be best practice.<o:p></o:p></div><div =
style=3D"margin-top: 0in; margin-right: 0in; margin-bottom: 0.0001pt; =
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 15:55:38 -0400
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From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>, <wbeebee@cisco.com>, <jhw@apple.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Consider a scenario where a home has 2 routers, each connected to a
different access network (maybe one is cable and the other DSL). Each
SP, in addition to providing Internet access, also provides access to a
walled garden of special services accessible only by their subscribers.
This walled garden uses an address space not accessible from the
Internet. This walled garden might require the CPE router to set up a
separate WAN connection, or it might not.

=20

Wouldn't the access networks , in this case, need to tell the CPE
routers connected to them that this address space is accessible off this
network? And wouldn't the CPE Routers need to tell the hosts in the LAN
which of these walled garden address spaces gets routed through each of
them, so hosts know where to send traffic bound for a server off one or
the other of these private networks?

=20

I've seen these things rather often in IPv4, where the CPE Router is
statically configured (by the SP) to know what to do. But if the address
space needs to change, updating the configuration is clumsy. It seems
that the tools available to us with IPv6 could allow us to do better.

Barbara

=20

From: Alan Kavanagh [mailto:alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com]=20
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 9:18 PM
To: Stark, Barbara; wbeebee@cisco.com; jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: shemant@cisco.com
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

=20

Hmm, im a little bit confused here or just missing some of this
discussion, but what "routes" are you considering being advertised by
the BNG/IP_Edge node and what routes would be then advertised from the
WAN to the Home LAN network?

=20

Alan K

=20

________________________________

From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Stark, Barbara
Sent: March 27, 2009 4:44 PM
To: wbeebee@cisco.com; jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: shemant@cisco.com
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

It's not clear to me why manual configuration is specified as *the* way
to configure these routes (again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the access
network to the CPE Rtr WAN interface as a way to configure the routes).
I propose that if a CPE Rtr gets such routes from the WAN that it
automatically put those same route prefixes in its LAN RAs. In which
case it would not be off by default, but on by default (it would
automatically send specific route info if it has specific route info to
send).
Barbara

----- Original Message -----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org <owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant) <shemant@cisco.com>
Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

The new text for MSR's is as follows:

"8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.  Small
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have
configurable routing tables.  The CPE Router can communicate More
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific
prefixes configured through manual configuration.  Advertisement of MSRs
through RAs is turned off by default."

- Wes

-----Original Message-----
From: james woodyatt [mailto:jhw@apple.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:
>
> Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, now
> that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.  I am
> only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has been
> received on the WAN link with L=3D1.  No other cases are interesting.

I take it back.  It's interesting in the other cases as well.  Two CPE
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with MSR
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service provider
have PIO options in them.  As they should.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




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<title>Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments</title>
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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Consider a scenario where a home has 2 routers, each =
connected
to a different access network (maybe one is cable and the other DSL). =
Each SP,
in addition to providing Internet access, also provides access to a =
walled
garden of special services accessible only by their subscribers. This =
walled
garden uses an address space not accessible from the Internet. This =
walled
garden might require the CPE router to set up a separate WAN connection, =
or it
might not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Wouldn&#8217;t the access networks , in this case, need =
to tell
the CPE routers connected to them that this address space is accessible =
off
this network? And wouldn&#8217;t the CPE Routers need to tell the hosts =
in the
LAN which of these walled garden address spaces gets routed through each =
of
them, so hosts know where to send traffic bound for a server off one or =
the
other of these private networks?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;ve seen these things rather often in IPv4, where =
the CPE
Router is statically configured (by the SP) to know what to do. But if =
the address
space needs to change, updating the configuration is clumsy. It seems =
that the
tools available to us with IPv6 could allow us to do =
better.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Barbara<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Alan =
Kavanagh
[mailto:alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 29, 2009 9:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stark, Barbara; wbeebee@cisco.com; jhw@apple.com; =
v6ops@ops.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> shemant@cisco.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 =
comments<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Hmm, im a little bit confused here or just missing some of =
this
discussion, but what &quot;routes&quot; are you considering being =
advertised by
the BNG/IP_Edge node and what routes would be then advertised from the =
WAN to
the Home LAN network?</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Alan K</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
[mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stark, Barbara<br>
<b>Sent:</b> March 27, 2009 4:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> wbeebee@cisco.com; jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> shemant@cisco.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 =
comments</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>It's =
not clear
to me why manual configuration is specified as *the* way to configure =
these
routes (again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the access network to the CPE =
Rtr WAN
interface as a way to configure the routes). I propose that if a CPE Rtr =
gets
such routes from the WAN that it automatically put those same route =
prefixes in
its LAN RAs. In which case it would not be off by default, but on by =
default
(it would automatically send specific route info if it has specific =
route info
to send).<br>
Barbara<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org &lt;owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<br>
To: james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;; IPv6 Operations
&lt;v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<br>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant) &lt;shemant@cisco.com&gt;<br>
Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009<br>
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments<br>
<br>
The new text for MSR's is as follows:<br>
<br>
&quot;8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)<br>
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.&nbsp; =
Small<br>
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have<br>
configurable routing tables.&nbsp; The CPE Router can communicate =
More<br>
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a<br>
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific<br>
prefixes configured through manual configuration.&nbsp; Advertisement of =
MSRs<br>
through RAs is turned off by default.&quot;<br>
<br>
- Wes<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: james woodyatt [<a =
href=3D"mailto:jhw@apple.com">mailto:jhw@apple.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM<br>
To: IPv6 Operations<br>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)<br>
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments<br>
<br>
On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, =
now<br>
&gt; that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router =
draft.&nbsp; I am<br>
&gt; only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has =
been<br>
&gt; received on the WAN link with L=3D1.&nbsp; No other cases are =
interesting.<br>
<br>
I take it back.&nbsp; It's interesting in the other cases as well.&nbsp; =
Two
CPE<br>
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with =
MSR<br>
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service =
provider<br>
have PIO options in them.&nbsp; As they should.<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;<br>
member of technical staff, communications engineering<br>
<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span =
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*****</span><span
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Subject: RE: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:00:05 -0400
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com><2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com><EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com><2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com><30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com><BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com><9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com><B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com><C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com><20090326192455.dbcedfab.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org><alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261049210.25843@uplift. swm.pp.s e><D83105B2AC38794CB78ADA2959F2C44F02EA2594@S4DE9JSAACY.ost.t-com.de><alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261752110.25843@uplift.swm.pp.se><20090328200557.16d30bd9.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org><49CE6126.6080609@sneep.n! et><35815C929B41D2479A224FE098A27227070BEB0C@ecamlmw720.eamcs.ericsson.se> <20090330201805.d06e859f.ipng@69706e6720323030352 d30312d3 1340a.nosens e.org> <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA0DA1B731@crexc41p>
From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>, "Mark Smith" <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>, "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
Cc: "Alastair Johnson" <aj@sneep.net>, "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se>, <Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Barbara,

What initial cable standards deployment are you talking about where
clients in the home in cable modems or hosts behind the modems could
talk directly to another cable modem in a neighboring home?  For over 10
years, in docsis networks since docsis 1.0, I don't see such behavior on
a routed CMTS - this thread is also focused on routed networks because
at the DSL first hop IPv6 router, we have a routed network.  Also, what
you have said below about security or privacy was something that I sent
already on 03/26.  This is what I had said. =20

"At this point I would like you all to see this text below that I and
Wes wrote in an expired draft of
draft-wbeebee-on-link-and-off-link-determination-01.txt.
[3.  Router Models

   The Redirect Clarifications section clarifies RFC 4861 [ND] host and
   router behavior for an aggregation router deployment.

   The Aggregation Router Deployment Model section presents a possible
   aggregation router deployment model for IPv6 and discusses its
   properties with respect to ND.  Aggregation routers can service more
   than 100,000 subscribers.  Due to scaling considerations, any NS for
   global address resolution from any host to any other host should not
   reach the aggregation router.

3.1.  Aggregation Router Deployment Model

   A property of routed aggregation networks is that hosts cannot
   directly communicate with each other even if they share the same
   prefix.  Physical connectivity between the aggregation router and the
   modems prevents hosts behind modems to communicate directly with each
   other.  Hosts send their traffic to aggregation router.  This design
   is motivated by scaling and security considerations.  If every host
   could receive all traffic from every other host, then the
   subscriber's privacy would be violated and the amount of bandwidth
   available for each subscriber would be very small.  That is why hosts
   communicate between each other through the aggregation router, which
   is also the IPv6 first-hop router.

   For scaling reasons, any NS to resolve any address other than that of
   the default router should not reach the aggregation router.


                           +-----+
                           |     |
                           |Aggre+----(Rtr CPE)----Host1
            Core----WAN----+gator|
                           | Rtr |
                           |     +----(Br CPE)----(Cust Rtr)----Host2
                           +-----+

                                 Figure 1.

   In the figure above, the customer premises equipment (CPE) is managed
   by the ISP and is deployed behind an aggregation router that is an
   IPv6 first-hop router and also a DHCPv6 relay agent.  IPv6 CPEs are
   either IPv6 routers (Rtr CPE) or IPv6 bridges (Br CPE).  If the
   customer premises uses a bridge CPE, then a router (Cust Rtr) is
   needed.  All hosts reside behind a router CPE or a customer router.

   No NS to resolve any address other than that of the default router



Singh & Beebee            Expires July 4, 2008                  [Page 7]


Internet-Draft          ND On-link Determination            January 2008


   will reach the aggregation router from any device on the customer
   side of the aggregator.  CPEs do not communicate with each other in
   this deployment model since a CPE does not run any applications that
   need to communicate with other CPEs.  Hosts do communicate with each
   other, but every host is off-link to any other host on the
   aggregation router.]

Hemant


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Stark, Barbara
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:08 AM
To: Mark Smith; Alan Kavanagh
Cc: Alastair Johnson; Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de;
v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

My remembrance of why SPs aren't keen to localize routing is quite
different.
Originally, cable operators had neighbors all on the same Ethernet
network. Neighbors were able to discover each other's computers and
printers (this was before routers were common), and sometimes sniff each
other's traffic. This was considered a bad thing, from a customer
security and privacy standpoint. Telco providers decided that they did
not want to it this way, and effectively made Ethernet connections from
customers "point-to-point" to an element in the access network.=20

Today, the access network elements are able to detect a lot of malware
traffic (especially DDoS attacks), and disconnect customers that are
infected with malware that presents a security / privacy /
performance-impacting risk to others. Unfortunately, this is not an
infrequent occurrence. If customer traffic were somehow able to bypass
these network elements, it would open up neighbors to attacks by
infected neighbors. That would be a very bad thing.

Furthermore, in general, there just isn't that much neighbor-to-neighbor
communication, that would make the savings outweigh the cost of
implementation. The only neighbor my home trades a lot of traffic with
(my kids and their kids, gaming) is on a separate network, since we use
different service providers.

Lack of cost justification and security concerns are the reasons why SPs
are unlikely to localize traffic within the access network, for general
consumers.
Barbara




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 30 13:06:41 2009
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:04:34 -0400
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From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>, "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>, <jhw@apple.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
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Manual configuration that may be required to be updated by the Service
Provider may be exposed through SNMP in the CPE Router.
=20
Therefore, we could provide a way to insert routes into the MSR table
through SNMP queries.
=20
However, other routes may need to be configured by the end-user, so the
MSR table may need to be exposed to the end user as well.
=20
- Wes

________________________________

From: Stark, Barbara [mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:56 PM
To: Alan Kavanagh; Wes Beebee (wbeebee); jhw@apple.com;
v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant)
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments



Consider a scenario where a home has 2 routers, each connected to a
different access network (maybe one is cable and the other DSL). Each
SP, in addition to providing Internet access, also provides access to a
walled garden of special services accessible only by their subscribers.
This walled garden uses an address space not accessible from the
Internet. This walled garden might require the CPE router to set up a
separate WAN connection, or it might not.

=20

Wouldn't the access networks , in this case, need to tell the CPE
routers connected to them that this address space is accessible off this
network? And wouldn't the CPE Routers need to tell the hosts in the LAN
which of these walled garden address spaces gets routed through each of
them, so hosts know where to send traffic bound for a server off one or
the other of these private networks?

=20

I've seen these things rather often in IPv4, where the CPE Router is
statically configured (by the SP) to know what to do. But if the address
space needs to change, updating the configuration is clumsy. It seems
that the tools available to us with IPv6 could allow us to do better.

Barbara

=20

From: Alan Kavanagh [mailto:alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com]=20
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 9:18 PM
To: Stark, Barbara; wbeebee@cisco.com; jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: shemant@cisco.com
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

=20

Hmm, im a little bit confused here or just missing some of this
discussion, but what "routes" are you considering being advertised by
the BNG/IP_Edge node and what routes would be then advertised from the
WAN to the Home LAN network?

=20

Alan K

=20

________________________________

From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Stark, Barbara
Sent: March 27, 2009 4:44 PM
To: wbeebee@cisco.com; jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: shemant@cisco.com
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

It's not clear to me why manual configuration is specified as *the* way
to configure these routes (again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the access
network to the CPE Rtr WAN interface as a way to configure the routes).
I propose that if a CPE Rtr gets such routes from the WAN that it
automatically put those same route prefixes in its LAN RAs. In which
case it would not be off by default, but on by default (it would
automatically send specific route info if it has specific route info to
send).
Barbara

----- Original Message -----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org <owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant) <shemant@cisco.com>
Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

The new text for MSR's is as follows:

"8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.  Small
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have
configurable routing tables.  The CPE Router can communicate More
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific
prefixes configured through manual configuration.  Advertisement of MSRs
through RAs is turned off by default."

- Wes

-----Original Message-----
From: james woodyatt [mailto:jhw@apple.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:
>
> Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, now
> that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.  I am
> only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has been
> received on the WAN link with L=3D1.  No other cases are interesting.

I take it back.  It's interesting in the other cases as well.  Two CPE
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with MSR
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service provider
have PIO options in them.  As they should.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering




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<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D735000020-30032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Manual configuration that may be required to be =
updated by=20
the Service Provider may be exposed through SNMP in the CPE=20
Router.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D735000020-30032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D735000020-30032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>Therefore, we could provide a way to insert =
routes into the=20
MSR table through SNMP queries.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D735000020-30032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D735000020-30032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>However, other routes may need to be configured =
by the=20
end-user, so the MSR table may need to be exposed to the end user as=20
well.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D735000020-30032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft><SPAN class=3D735000020-30032009><FONT =
face=3DArial=20
color=3D#0000ff size=3D2>- Wes</FONT></SPAN></DIV><BR>
<DIV class=3DOutlookMessageHeader lang=3Den-us dir=3Dltr align=3Dleft>
<HR tabIndex=3D-1>
<FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><B>From:</B> Stark, Barbara =
[mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
<BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, March 30, 2009 3:56 PM<BR><B>To:</B> Alan =
Kavanagh; Wes=20
Beebee (wbeebee); jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> Hemant =
Singh=20
(shemant)<BR><B>Subject:</B> RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04=20
comments<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV class=3DSection1>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">Consider=20
a scenario where a home has 2 routers, each connected to a different =
access=20
network (maybe one is cable and the other DSL). Each SP, in addition to=20
providing Internet access, also provides access to a walled garden of =
special=20
services accessible only by their subscribers. This walled garden uses =
an=20
address space not accessible from the Internet. This walled garden might =
require=20
the CPE router to set up a separate WAN connection, or it might=20
not.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">Wouldn&#8217;t=20
the access networks , in this case, need to tell the CPE routers =
connected to=20
them that this address space is accessible off this network? And =
wouldn&#8217;t the=20
CPE Routers need to tell the hosts in the LAN which of these walled =
garden=20
address spaces gets routed through each of them, so hosts know where to =
send=20
traffic bound for a server off one or the other of these private=20
networks?<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">I&#8217;ve=20
seen these things rather often in IPv4, where the CPE Router is =
statically=20
configured (by the SP) to know what to do. But if the address space =
needs to=20
change, updating the configuration is clumsy. It seems that the tools =
available=20
to us with IPv6 could allow us to do better.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'">Barbara<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 11pt; COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Calibri','sans-serif'"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></SPAN></P>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
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<DIV>
<DIV=20
style=3D"BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; PADDING-RIGHT: 0in; BORDER-TOP: =
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<P class=3DMsoNormal><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'"> Alan =
Kavanagh=20
[mailto:alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Sunday, March 29, =
2009 9:18=20
PM<BR><B>To:</B> Stark, Barbara; wbeebee@cisco.com; jhw@apple.com;=20
v6ops@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B> shemant@cisco.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> =
RE:=20
draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 =
comments<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">Hmm, im=20
a little bit confused here or just missing some of this discussion, but =
what=20
"routes" are you considering being advertised by the BNG/IP_Edge node =
and what=20
routes would be then advertised from the WAN to the Home LAN=20
network?</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Arial','sans-serif'">Alan=20
K</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></P>
<DIV class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"TEXT-ALIGN: center" align=3Dcenter>
<HR align=3Dcenter width=3D"100%" SIZE=3D2>
</DIV>
<P class=3DMsoNormal style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Tahoma','sans-serif'">From:</SPAN></B><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Tahoma','sans-serif'">=20
owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] <B>On Behalf =
Of=20
</B>Stark, Barbara<BR><B>Sent:</B> March 27, 2009 4:44 PM<BR><B>To:</B>=20
wbeebee@cisco.com; jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org<BR><B>Cc:</B>=20
shemant@cisco.com<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: =
draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04=20
comments</SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P style=3D"MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt"><SPAN style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt">It's =
not clear to=20
me why manual configuration is specified as *the* way to configure these =
routes=20
(again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the access network to the CPE Rtr WAN =
interface=20
as a way to configure the routes). I propose that if a CPE Rtr gets such =
routes=20
from the WAN that it automatically put those same route prefixes in its =
LAN RAs.=20
In which case it would not be off by default, but on by default (it =
would=20
automatically send specific route info if it has specific route info to=20
send).<BR>Barbara<BR><BR>----- Original Message -----<BR>From:=20
owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org &lt;owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<BR>To: james =
woodyatt=20
&lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;; IPv6 Operations &lt;v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<BR>Cc: =
Hemant=20
Singh (shemant) &lt;shemant@cisco.com&gt;<BR>Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09=20
2009<BR>Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 =
comments<BR><BR>The new=20
text for MSR's is as follows:<BR><BR>"8.7 Multi-homed Host Support=20
(MEDIUM)<BR>The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN =
interfaces.&nbsp;=20
Small<BR>consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not=20
have<BR>configurable routing tables.&nbsp; The CPE Router can =
communicate=20
More<BR>Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose=20
a<BR>preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to=20
specific<BR>prefixes configured through manual configuration.&nbsp;=20
Advertisement of MSRs<BR>through RAs is turned off by default."<BR><BR>- =

Wes<BR><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: james woodyatt [<A=20
href=3D"mailto:jhw@apple.com">mailto:jhw@apple.com</A>]<BR>Sent: =
Wednesday, March=20
25, 2009 7:17 PM<BR>To: IPv6 Operations<BR>Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); =
Wes=20
Beebee (wbeebee)<BR>Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04=20
comments<BR><BR>On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt =
wrote:<BR>&gt;<BR>&gt;=20
Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, =
now<BR>&gt;=20
that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.&nbsp; I=20
am<BR>&gt; only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO =
has=20
been<BR>&gt; received on the WAN link with L=3D1.&nbsp; No other cases =
are=20
interesting.<BR><BR>I take it back.&nbsp; It's interesting in the other =
cases as=20
well.&nbsp; Two CPE<BR>routers attached to the same link will exchange =
their=20
prefixes with MSR<BR>advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from =
the=20
service provider<BR>have PIO options in them.&nbsp; As they=20
should.<BR><BR><BR>--<BR>james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;<BR>member =
of=20
technical staff, communications =
engineering<BR><BR><BR></SPAN><o:p></o:p></P>
<P><SPAN=20
style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: =
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style=3D"FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: blue; FONT-FAMILY: =
'Tahoma','sans-serif'"><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P></DIV></DIV><!--[object_id=3D=
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<P align=3Dleft><FONT face=3DTahoma size=3D2><FONT color=3D#0000ff><FONT =
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From: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>
To: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
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Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 13:17:36 -0700
References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com> <EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com> <2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com> <30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com> <C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com> <20090326192455.dbcedfab.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261049210.25843@uplift. swm.pp.s e> <D83105B2AC38794CB78ADA2959F2C44F02EA2594@S4DE9JSAACY.ost.t-com.de> <alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261752110.25843@uplift.swm.pp.se> <20090328200557.16d30bd9.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org> <49CE6126.6080609@sneep.n! et> <35815C929B41D2479A224FE098A27227070BEB0C@ecamlmw720.eamcs.ericsson.se> <20090330201805.d06e859f.ipng@6970 6e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
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On Mar 30, 2009, at 2:48 AM, Mark Smith wrote:

> I'd have thought they should be keen to avoid that, unless all of  
> their
> customers are all under or likely to all under surveilence at the same
> time!

ISP architectures are not designed around surveillance; they are  
organized for control. That said, if a subpoena comes in, the effect  
of surveillance is not supposed to be detectable by the surveillance  
subject. If routing suddenly changed, and especially if local  
connectivity that the surveillance subject was using disappeared, that  
would be a pretty major tip-off.

In case you're questioning the "control" aspects, the issue is  
primarily that an ISP offers services to its customers under an SLA,  
and is responsible to enforce the SLA. For example, if the are  
guaranteeing me, or making representations to me of, a specific  
bandwidth, they can't allow another customer to do something that  
prevents me from getting that amount of bandwidth. As a result, they  
will generally run traffic on networks they operate through equipment  
that enables them to have the level of control they need, and they  
reserve the right (as RFC 2309 suggests) to force top talkers to back  
off when necessary to make that happen.


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Subject: RE: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 16:51:15 -0400
Message-ID: <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA0DA1B927@crexc41p>
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References: <93123C20-3758-43C8-9201-22CB6D5B6233@apple.com><2bbba3c10903231639t51dac3c3p57e1a4562bd342c4@mail.gmail.com><EE8F7462-7233-4E0B-9CEB-FA2B7A2D15B3@apple.com><2bbba3c10903231828g79b0207cnf4b53959e0a21706@mail.gmail.com><30020A2D-4EE5-4F86-A1E5-532990B44D4F@apple.com><BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A0301FBC00A@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com><9AE362E6-46E1-4400-B1E3-F6B4D5392C06@apple.com><B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06C87A9C@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com><C4A0A0F2-FB98-4BCD-9FD4-5F58A61B3D9D@apple.com><20090326192455.dbcedfab.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org><alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261049210.25843@uplift. swm.pp.s e><D83105B2AC38794CB78ADA2959F2C44F02EA2594@S4DE9JSAACY.ost.t-com.de><alpine.DEB.1.10.0903261752110.25843@uplift.swm.pp.se><20090328200557.16d30bd9.ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org><49CE6126.6080609@sneep.n! et><35815C929B41D2479A224FE098A27227070BEB0C@ecamlmw720.eamcs.ericsson.se> <20090330201805.d06e859f.ipng@69706e6720323030352 d30312d3 1340a.nosens e.org> <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA0DA1B731@crexc41p> <B00EDD615E3C5344B0FFCBA910CF7E1D06D08DED@xmb-rtp-20e.amer.cisco.com>
From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>, "Mark Smith" <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>, "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>
Cc: "Alastair Johnson" <aj@sneep.net>, "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se>, <Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Hemant,
I was simply clarifying the history of why telco SPs currently use
"point-to-point" Ethernet connections, because other emails had implied
it was for governmental eavesdropping purposes. I meant no insult, and
had no agenda, other than to explain that eavesdropping was not the
primary goal. Governmental eavesdropping, as a justification for
requirements, leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths, and is rather
unpopular. Security and privacy are considered worthy goals. I was
trying to turn the tone of justification from being negative
(governmental eavesdropping) to positive (security and privacy).

Although DOCSIS 1.0 did include support for encryption, in the old days,
many providers did not enable this security, and there were many
anecdotes of neighbors seeing each other's computers. The encryption
capabilities of DOCSIS 1.0 were just an option, and not mandatory.
Again, this is really old (10 years +) history; but this history was key
in driving telco service providers to architecting access networks that
did not have shared Ethernet links among customers. This isn't intended
as an insult or a slam against the cable industry. I haven't heard any
of these anecdotes in years, and have no doubt that cable access is
quite secure at this time. But history is history. Here is a website
that describes some of this old history, in case you're curious:
http://www.securityfocus.com/news/7977.

I do not see that this history has any impact on the draft. The
requirements, from my perspective, are sufficiently justified. Since
there doesn't seem to be a request for any changes to the draft, based
on this thread, I don't think it's a useful thread to pursue.
Barbara

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hemant Singh (shemant) [mailto:shemant@cisco.com]
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:00 PM
> To: Stark, Barbara; Mark Smith; Alan Kavanagh
> Cc: Alastair Johnson; Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de;
> v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: RE: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
>=20
> Barbara,
>=20
> What initial cable standards deployment are you talking about where
> clients in the home in cable modems or hosts behind the modems could
> talk directly to another cable modem in a neighboring home?  For over
> 10
> years, in docsis networks since docsis 1.0, I don't see such behavior
> on
> a routed CMTS - this thread is also focused on routed networks because
> at the DSL first hop IPv6 router, we have a routed network.  Also,
what
> you have said below about security or privacy was something that I
sent
> already on 03/26.  This is what I had said.
>=20
> "At this point I would like you all to see this text below that I and
> Wes wrote in an expired draft of
> draft-wbeebee-on-link-and-off-link-determination-01.txt.
> [3.  Router Models
>=20
>    The Redirect Clarifications section clarifies RFC 4861 [ND] host
and
>    router behavior for an aggregation router deployment.
>=20
>    The Aggregation Router Deployment Model section presents a possible
>    aggregation router deployment model for IPv6 and discusses its
>    properties with respect to ND.  Aggregation routers can service
more
>    than 100,000 subscribers.  Due to scaling considerations, any NS
for
>    global address resolution from any host to any other host should
not
>    reach the aggregation router.
>=20
> 3.1.  Aggregation Router Deployment Model
>=20
>    A property of routed aggregation networks is that hosts cannot
>    directly communicate with each other even if they share the same
>    prefix.  Physical connectivity between the aggregation router and
> the
>    modems prevents hosts behind modems to communicate directly with
> each
>    other.  Hosts send their traffic to aggregation router.  This
design
>    is motivated by scaling and security considerations.  If every host
>    could receive all traffic from every other host, then the
>    subscriber's privacy would be violated and the amount of bandwidth
>    available for each subscriber would be very small.  That is why
> hosts
>    communicate between each other through the aggregation router,
which
>    is also the IPv6 first-hop router.
>=20
>    For scaling reasons, any NS to resolve any address other than that
> of
>    the default router should not reach the aggregation router.
>=20
>=20
>                            +-----+
>                            |     |
>                            |Aggre+----(Rtr CPE)----Host1
>             Core----WAN----+gator|
>                            | Rtr |
>                            |     +----(Br CPE)----(Cust Rtr)----Host2
>                            +-----+
>=20
>                                  Figure 1.
>=20
>    In the figure above, the customer premises equipment (CPE) is
> managed
>    by the ISP and is deployed behind an aggregation router that is an
>    IPv6 first-hop router and also a DHCPv6 relay agent.  IPv6 CPEs are
>    either IPv6 routers (Rtr CPE) or IPv6 bridges (Br CPE).  If the
>    customer premises uses a bridge CPE, then a router (Cust Rtr) is
>    needed.  All hosts reside behind a router CPE or a customer router.
>=20
>    No NS to resolve any address other than that of the default router
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Singh & Beebee            Expires July 4, 2008                  [Page
> 7]
>=20
>=20
> Internet-Draft          ND On-link Determination            January
> 2008
>=20
>=20
>    will reach the aggregation router from any device on the customer
>    side of the aggregator.  CPEs do not communicate with each other in
>    this deployment model since a CPE does not run any applications
that
>    need to communicate with other CPEs.  Hosts do communicate with
each
>    other, but every host is off-link to any other host on the
>    aggregation router.]
>=20
> Hemant
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Stark, Barbara
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:08 AM
> To: Mark Smith; Alan Kavanagh
> Cc: Alastair Johnson; Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de;
> v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: RE: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
>=20
> My remembrance of why SPs aren't keen to localize routing is quite
> different.
> Originally, cable operators had neighbors all on the same Ethernet
> network. Neighbors were able to discover each other's computers and
> printers (this was before routers were common), and sometimes sniff
> each
> other's traffic. This was considered a bad thing, from a customer
> security and privacy standpoint. Telco providers decided that they did
> not want to it this way, and effectively made Ethernet connections
from
> customers "point-to-point" to an element in the access network.
>=20
> Today, the access network elements are able to detect a lot of malware
> traffic (especially DDoS attacks), and disconnect customers that are
> infected with malware that presents a security / privacy /
> performance-impacting risk to others. Unfortunately, this is not an
> infrequent occurrence. If customer traffic were somehow able to bypass
> these network elements, it would open up neighbors to attacks by
> infected neighbors. That would be a very bad thing.
>=20
> Furthermore, in general, there just isn't that much neighbor-to-
> neighbor
> communication, that would make the savings outweigh the cost of
> implementation. The only neighbor my home trades a lot of traffic with
> (my kids and their kids, gaming) is on a separate network, since we
use
> different service providers.
>=20
> Lack of cost justification and security concerns are the reasons why
> SPs
> are unlikely to localize traffic within the access network, for
general
> consumers.
> Barbara
>=20



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 30 13:51:24 2009
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Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 07:19:14 +1030
From: Mark Smith <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
Cc: "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>, "Alastair Johnson" <aj@sneep.net>, "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se>, <Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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Hi Barbara,

On Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:08:02 -0400
"Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com> wrote:

(As a disclosure, I work for an SP with a reasonable sized ADSL
network with Ethernet backhaul, but I'm participating here in my own
time.)

> My remembrance of why SPs aren't keen to localize routing is quite
> different.
> Originally, cable operators had neighbors all on the same Ethernet
> network. Neighbors were able to discover each other's computers and
> printers (this was before routers were common), and sometimes sniff each
> other's traffic. This was considered a bad thing, from a customer
> security and privacy standpoint. Telco providers decided that they did
> not want to it this way, and effectively made Ethernet connections from
> customers "point-to-point" to an element in the access network. 
> 

It is useful to remember history, but it's not the situation today -
and we're talking about designs trying to suit today's and near
future situations and requirements.

I'm not sure about cable CPE, but all ADSL CPE these days is a router,
doing IPv4 NAT and firewalling, by default, although they can usually be
configured to act as a bridge. While the bridging capability for
existing CPE might be useful as a deployment option for IPv6, I think
eventually all IPv6 CPE will be routed. SPs will probably in effect
demand it, because it makes it easier to scale subscriber counts within
the same part of the network topology.

> Today, the access network elements are able to detect a lot of malware
> traffic (especially DDoS attacks), and disconnect customers that are
> infected with malware that presents a security / privacy /
> performance-impacting risk to others. Unfortunately, this is not an
> infrequent occurrence. If customer traffic were somehow able to bypass
> these network elements, it would open up neighbors to attacks by
> infected neighbors. That would be a very bad thing.
> 

So, is their any reason why that functionality must be located in the
BNG?

Alan's company already make ADSL DSLAMs that perform an amount of IP
based traffic processing, despite them not participating in the IP
forwarding process. I'm guessing a lot of the DPI boxes don't
participate in IP forwarding either, so in the least, they don't show
up in traceroute output. It's all layer violations of course, but that
seems to be being more accepted for security / traffic policy
enforcement reasons today (e.g. RA guard, DHCP snooping/modificaton on
switches/ADSL DSLAMs etc.)


> Furthermore, in general, there just isn't that much neighbor-to-neighbor
> communication, that would make the savings outweigh the cost of
> implementation. The only neighbor my home trades a lot of traffic with
> (my kids and their kids, gaming) is on a separate network, since we use
> different service providers.
> 

Peer-to-peer traffic e.g. bittorrent etc., is a strong candidate for
network locality. The only thing that doesn't seem to exist
is P2P applications that make network topology aware peer selection,
and I think the IETF are already working on that. Once they exist, I
think there will be considerably more local intra-SP traffic than there
is today. 

> Lack of cost justification and security concerns are the reasons why SPs
> are unlikely to localize traffic within the access network, for general
> consumers.

Maybe this is what we're tripping up on. Different topologies and
network densities have different optimal forwarding paths. If the BNG
is colocated with the broadband layer 2 infrastructure in an exchange /
central office, then the overhead of traffic being forwarded via the
BNG, albeit increased, isn't all that significant. However, if the BNG
is located at some more central aggregation point, then having traffic
that can stay within the exchange/C.O. by e.g., going direct between
customer CPE at layer 2, saves both BNG resources and sometimes
significant backhaul bandwidth costs. That might not be a significant
cost today, but once P2P app become (layer 3) topology aware, I think
that'll increase significantly the amount of traffic that will be
being unnecessarily hair-pinned via an off-site device. 

Regards,
Mark.


> Barbara
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of Mark Smith
> > Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 5:48 AM
> > To: Alan Kavanagh
> > Cc: Alastair Johnson; Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de;
> > v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
> > 
> > Hi Alan,
> > 
> > On Sun, 29 Mar 2009 21:09:37 -0400
> > "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com> wrote:
> > 
> > > Correct, and this is why SP's are not too keen to have routing
> > localised
> > > in the aggregation network before the BNG.
> > >
> > 
> > I'd have thought they should be keen to avoid that, unless all of
> their
> > customers are all under or likely to all under surveilence at the same
> > time!
> > 
> > The technical requirement of LI is that traffic has pass the
> > interception point. As the majority of people are honest, it seems to
> > me that optimising the topology to pass the interception point, rather
> > than for best throughput and lower latency, is wasteful, and an unfair
> > performance and ultimately a network capex and opex cost burden on
> > those subscribers who aren't under surveilence, and may never be. Only
> > traffic that is to be lawfully intercepted should be forced past this
> > interception point, if it doesn't already naturally traverse it.
> > 
> > Some topologies would inherently make the BNG the best traffic
> > interception point e.g. wholesale broadband aggregation via L2TP.
> > However, for other topologies (e.g. a single VLAN interconnecting
> > customers' ADSL routers, and an upstream default router for access to
> > the Internet/other services), traffic can travel direct between
> > subscribers / their CPE, as the CPEs have an on-link peer
> relationship.
> > Should lawful interception be required, either that on-link path could
> > be changed to traverse the interception point (e.g., by mechanisms
> > such as forced forwarding), or better yet, the interception point be
> > the
> > suspect subscriber's point of interconnection i.e. the specific ADSL
> > service that they're using - as all their traffic is naturally going
> to
> > traverse that point.
> > 
> > If an SP wants to have a topology that has all traffic traversing the
> > BNG, or is forced to because of a legal requirement, that's fine.
> > My argument is that other SPs won't have this requirement so they
> > shouldn't also be forced to adopt this LI optimal topology - they
> > should have the freedom to implement a topology optimised for
> > throughput and low latency.
> > 
> > So, getting back to the discussion point, I think there would be
> > value in having a mechanism where downstream CPE can be informed of
> > on-link peer-CPE's assigned prefixes, without the CPE themselves
> having
> > to trust each other's announcements. An idea I had a while back was a
> > "prefix redirect", similar to an ND host redirect, issued by, and only
> > accepted from, the upstream on-link default router. Not quite as
> > optimal as the CPE themselves announcing their prefixes via a routing
> > protocol, but it would be more scalable - the CPE would only be
> > maintaining topological knowledge for destinations they're currently
> > using, rather than for all the destinations they can reach via on-link
> > peer CPE.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > Mark.
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> > > Behalf Of Alastair Johnson
> > > Sent: March 28, 2009 1:41 PM
> > > To: Mark Smith
> > > Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > > Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
> > >
> > > Mark Smith wrote:
> > > > On Thu, 26 Mar 2009 17:53:05 +0100 (CET) Mikael Abrahamsson
> > > > <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> On Thu, 26 Mar 2009, Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >>> Normally the customers are separated from each other by split
> > > horizont mchanisms and MAC adress translation techniques.
> > > >> Yes, but that defeats the whole purpose of the proposal from Mark
> > > >> Smith if I correctly interpret the scenario he proposed.
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > > Yes it would defeat it. The only reason I can think of to require
> > hair
> > >
> > > > pinning of traffic between downstream on-link peer CPE is if your
> > > > default router is your traffic billing point, and you want to bill
> > > > (count) the traffic between those CPE. Otherwise you're probably
> > > > unnecessarily forcing a P2P model connectivity model (i.e.
> > > > an ATM ADSL backhaul model) onto a multi-access technology (an
> > > > Ethernet/ADSL backhaul model).
> > >
> > > Lawful Interception is another reason that a service provider may
> > want
> > > all traffic from a subscriber aggregated to the default router.
> > There
> > > may be no way around this, depending on the LI requirements that are
> > > placed on the service provider, and where the logical interception
> > point
> > > is (BNG vs. DSLAM).
> > >
> > > aj
> > >
> > >
> 
> 
> *****
> 
> The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to which it is addressed and may contain confidential, proprietary, and/or privileged material. Any review, retransmission, dissemination or other use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon this information by persons or entities other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you received this in error, please contact the sender and delete the material from all computers. GA622
> 
> 


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 30 14:15:27 2009
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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From: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>, "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>, <jhw@apple.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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SPs always have the option of using remote device configuration
protocols (e.g. SNMP, TR-069) to configure CPE routers that they supply.
I do not, realistically, expect retail CPE routers to support any of
these options. For TR-069, BBF can certainly be expected to define
mechanisms to manage the routing table. I assume that your SNMP
suggestions were intended for the cable company managed routers, and
other (e.g. enterprise) SNMP-managed routers.

=20

The vast majority of end users will not be able / willing to configure
routing tables. This isn't that different from firewall configuration,
which terrified the majority of end users, and were the cause for a
large percentage of calls to service provider help desks. CPE Routers
that succeed in the multi-homed environment, will be the ones that
implement automated mechanisms that work.=20

=20

I've noticed from a number of comments that there seems to be a certain
disparity between requirements for cable CPE routers, other service
provider CPE routers that may have PHY layer WAN modems in them
(non-Ethernet WAN), and the retail CPE routers that have an Ethernet WAN
and can make no assumption about the nature of the WAN or the service
provider supplying that WAN connection. I think that these retail
devices are probably the ones that could most benefit from an IETF
informational document, and wonder if we shouldn't focus more on
recommendations specifically for them. It sounds like the cable industry
already has its eRouter document and doesn't really need this. BBF is
writing its document. But the retail guys have no other home.

=20

>From my perspective, it would be very useful to be able to have some
predictable understanding of the capabilities that a retail CPE router
can reasonably be expected to have.=20

Barbara

=20

From: Wes Beebee (wbeebee) [mailto:wbeebee@cisco.com]=20
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 4:05 PM
To: Stark, Barbara; Alan Kavanagh; jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant)
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

=20

Manual configuration that may be required to be updated by the Service
Provider may be exposed through SNMP in the CPE Router.

=20

Therefore, we could provide a way to insert routes into the MSR table
through SNMP queries.

=20

However, other routes may need to be configured by the end-user, so the
MSR table may need to be exposed to the end user as well.

=20

- Wes

=20

________________________________

From: Stark, Barbara [mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 3:56 PM
To: Alan Kavanagh; Wes Beebee (wbeebee); jhw@apple.com;
v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant)
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

Consider a scenario where a home has 2 routers, each connected to a
different access network (maybe one is cable and the other DSL). Each
SP, in addition to providing Internet access, also provides access to a
walled garden of special services accessible only by their subscribers.
This walled garden uses an address space not accessible from the
Internet. This walled garden might require the CPE router to set up a
separate WAN connection, or it might not.

=20

Wouldn't the access networks , in this case, need to tell the CPE
routers connected to them that this address space is accessible off this
network? And wouldn't the CPE Routers need to tell the hosts in the LAN
which of these walled garden address spaces gets routed through each of
them, so hosts know where to send traffic bound for a server off one or
the other of these private networks?

=20

I've seen these things rather often in IPv4, where the CPE Router is
statically configured (by the SP) to know what to do. But if the address
space needs to change, updating the configuration is clumsy. It seems
that the tools available to us with IPv6 could allow us to do better.

Barbara

=20

From: Alan Kavanagh [mailto:alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com]=20
Sent: Sunday, March 29, 2009 9:18 PM
To: Stark, Barbara; wbeebee@cisco.com; jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: shemant@cisco.com
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

=20

Hmm, im a little bit confused here or just missing some of this
discussion, but what "routes" are you considering being advertised by
the BNG/IP_Edge node and what routes would be then advertised from the
WAN to the Home LAN network?

=20

Alan K

=20

________________________________

From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Stark, Barbara
Sent: March 27, 2009 4:44 PM
To: wbeebee@cisco.com; jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: shemant@cisco.com
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

It's not clear to me why manual configuration is specified as *the* way
to configure these routes (again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the access
network to the CPE Rtr WAN interface as a way to configure the routes).
I propose that if a CPE Rtr gets such routes from the WAN that it
automatically put those same route prefixes in its LAN RAs. In which
case it would not be off by default, but on by default (it would
automatically send specific route info if it has specific route info to
send).
Barbara

----- Original Message -----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org <owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
To: james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>; IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant) <shemant@cisco.com>
Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

The new text for MSR's is as follows:

"8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.  Small
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have
configurable routing tables.  The CPE Router can communicate More
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific
prefixes configured through manual configuration.  Advertisement of MSRs
through RAs is turned off by default."

- Wes

-----Original Message-----
From: james woodyatt [mailto:jhw@apple.com]
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM
To: IPv6 Operations
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:
>
> Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, now
> that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router draft.  I am
> only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has been
> received on the WAN link with L=3D1.  No other cases are interesting.

I take it back.  It's interesting in the other cases as well.  Two CPE
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with MSR
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service provider
have PIO options in them.  As they should.


--
james woodyatt <jhw@apple.com>
member of technical staff, communications engineering



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The information transmitted is intended only for the person or entity to
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<div class=3DSection1>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>SPs always have the option of using remote device =
configuration
protocols (e.g. SNMP, TR-069) to configure CPE routers that they supply. =
I do
not, realistically, expect retail CPE routers to support any of these =
options. For
TR-069, BBF can certainly be expected to define mechanisms to manage the =
routing
table. I assume that your SNMP suggestions were intended for the cable =
company managed
routers, and other (e.g. enterprise) SNMP-managed =
routers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>The vast majority of end users will not be able / willing =
to
configure routing tables. This isn&#8217;t that different from firewall
configuration, which terrified the majority of end users, and were the =
cause
for a large percentage of calls to service provider help desks. CPE =
Routers
that succeed in the multi-homed environment, will be the ones that =
implement
automated mechanisms that work. <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;ve noticed from a number of comments that there =
seems to
be a certain disparity between requirements for cable CPE routers, other =
service
provider CPE routers that may have PHY layer WAN modems in them =
(non-Ethernet
WAN), and the retail CPE routers that have an Ethernet WAN and can make =
no
assumption about the nature of the WAN or the service provider supplying =
that
WAN connection. I think that these retail devices are probably the ones =
that
could most benefit from an IETF informational document, and wonder if we
shouldn&#8217;t focus more on recommendations specifically for them. It =
sounds
like the cable industry already has its eRouter document and =
doesn&#8217;t really
need this. BBF is writing its document. But the retail guys have no =
other home.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>From my perspective, it would be very useful to be able =
to have
some predictable understanding of the capabilities that a retail CPE =
router can
reasonably be expected to have. <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Barbara<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Wes Beebee
(wbeebee) [mailto:wbeebee@cisco.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 30, 2009 4:05 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stark, Barbara; Alan Kavanagh; jhw@apple.com; =
v6ops@ops.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hemant Singh (shemant)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 =
comments<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Manual configuration that may be required to be updated by =
the
Service Provider may be exposed through SNMP in the CPE =
Router.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Therefore, we could provide a way to insert routes into the =
MSR
table through SNMP queries.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>However, other routes may need to be configured by the =
end-user, so
the MSR table may need to be exposed to the end user as =
well.</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>- Wes</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stark, Barbara =
[mailto:bs7652@att.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 30, 2009 3:56 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Alan Kavanagh; Wes Beebee (wbeebee); jhw@apple.com;
v6ops@ops.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hemant Singh (shemant)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 =
comments</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Consider a scenario where a home has 2 routers, each =
connected
to a different access network (maybe one is cable and the other DSL). =
Each SP,
in addition to providing Internet access, also provides access to a =
walled
garden of special services accessible only by their subscribers. This =
walled
garden uses an address space not accessible from the Internet. This =
walled
garden might require the CPE router to set up a separate WAN connection, =
or it
might not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Wouldn&#8217;t the access networks , in this case, need =
to tell
the CPE routers connected to them that this address space is accessible =
off
this network? And wouldn&#8217;t the CPE Routers need to tell the hosts =
in the
LAN which of these walled garden address spaces gets routed through each =
of
them, so hosts know where to send traffic bound for a server off one or =
the
other of these private networks?<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>I&#8217;ve seen these things rather often in IPv4, where =
the CPE
Router is statically configured (by the SP) to know what to do. But if =
the
address space needs to change, updating the configuration is clumsy. It =
seems
that the tools available to us with IPv6 could allow us to do =
better.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Barbara<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0in 0in =
0in 4.0pt'>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Alan =
Kavanagh
[mailto:alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Sunday, March 29, 2009 9:18 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Stark, Barbara; wbeebee@cisco.com; jhw@apple.com; =
v6ops@ops.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> shemant@cisco.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 =
comments<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Hmm, im a little bit confused here or just missing some of =
this
discussion, but what &quot;routes&quot; are you considering being =
advertised by
the BNG/IP_Edge node and what routes would be then advertised from the =
WAN to
the Home LAN network?</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";
color:blue'>Alan K</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<div class=3DMsoNormal align=3Dcenter style=3D'text-align:center'>

<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span></b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org
[mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Stark, Barbara<br>
<b>Sent:</b> March 27, 2009 4:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> wbeebee@cisco.com; jhw@apple.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> shemant@cisco.com<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 =
comments</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt'>It's =
not clear
to me why manual configuration is specified as *the* way to configure =
these
routes (again, I see RA (RFC 4191) from the access network to the CPE =
Rtr WAN
interface as a way to configure the routes). I propose that if a CPE Rtr =
gets
such routes from the WAN that it automatically put those same route =
prefixes in
its LAN RAs. In which case it would not be off by default, but on by =
default
(it would automatically send specific route info if it has specific =
route info
to send).<br>
Barbara<br>
<br>
----- Original Message -----<br>
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org &lt;owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<br>
To: james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;; IPv6 Operations
&lt;v6ops@ops.ietf.org&gt;<br>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant) &lt;shemant@cisco.com&gt;<br>
Sent: Fri Mar 27 15:40:09 2009<br>
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments<br>
<br>
The new text for MSR's is as follows:<br>
<br>
&quot;8.7 Multi-homed Host Support (MEDIUM)<br>
The CPE Router MAY support RFC4191 on its LAN interfaces.&nbsp; =
Small<br>
consumer embedded multi-homed hosts in the home may not have<br>
configurable routing tables.&nbsp; The CPE Router can communicate =
More<br>
Specific Routes (MSRs) to these hosts to allow them to choose a<br>
preferred router to send traffic to for traffic destined to specific<br>
prefixes configured through manual configuration.&nbsp; Advertisement of =
MSRs<br>
through RAs is turned off by default.&quot;<br>
<br>
- Wes<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: james woodyatt [<a =
href=3D"mailto:jhw@apple.com">mailto:jhw@apple.com</a>]<br>
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2009 7:17 PM<br>
To: IPv6 Operations<br>
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant); Wes Beebee (wbeebee)<br>
Subject: Re: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments<br>
<br>
On Mar 25, 2009, at 16:06, james woodyatt wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please let me clarify my remarks and narrow my request somewhat, =
now<br>
&gt; that I've had a chance to review more of the CPE Router =
draft.&nbsp; I am<br>
&gt; only interested in such RFC 4191 messages when a valid PIO has =
been<br>
&gt; received on the WAN link with L=3D1.&nbsp; No other cases are =
interesting.<br>
<br>
I take it back.&nbsp; It's interesting in the other cases as well.&nbsp; =
Two
CPE<br>
routers attached to the same link will exchange their prefixes with =
MSR<br>
advertisements regardless of whether the RAs from the service =
provider<br>
have PIO options in them.&nbsp; As they should.<br>
<br>
<br>
--<br>
james woodyatt &lt;jhw@apple.com&gt;<br>
member of technical staff, communications engineering<br>
<br>
</span><o:p></o:p></p>

<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
*****</span><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:blue'><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:black'>=
The
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Cc: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>, "Mark Smith" <ipng@69706e6720323030352d30312d31340a.nosense.org>, "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>, "Alastair Johnson" <aj@sneep.net>, "Mikael Abrahamsson" <swmike@swm.pp.se>, <Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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From: Mark Baugher <mbaugher@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
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On Mar 30, 2009, at 1:00 PM, Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:

> Barbara,
>
> What initial cable standards deployment are you talking about where
> clients in the home in cable modems or hosts behind the modems could
> talk directly to another cable modem in a neighboring home?  For  
> over 10

What she says is true but it was a long time ago, in my experience.  I
remember @home sending an advisory to its customers in the 90's advising
them to change Windows 95 settings so their neighbors would not
be able to view their shared folders.

Mark

>
> years, in docsis networks since docsis 1.0, I don't see such  
> behavior on
> a routed CMTS - this thread is also focused on routed networks because
> at the DSL first hop IPv6 router, we have a routed network.  Also,  
> what
> you have said below about security or privacy was something that I  
> sent
> already on 03/26.  This is what I had said.
>
> "At this point I would like you all to see this text below that I and
> Wes wrote in an expired draft of
> draft-wbeebee-on-link-and-off-link-determination-01.txt.
> [3.  Router Models
>
>   The Redirect Clarifications section clarifies RFC 4861 [ND] host and
>   router behavior for an aggregation router deployment.
>
>   The Aggregation Router Deployment Model section presents a possible
>   aggregation router deployment model for IPv6 and discusses its
>   properties with respect to ND.  Aggregation routers can service more
>   than 100,000 subscribers.  Due to scaling considerations, any NS for
>   global address resolution from any host to any other host should not
>   reach the aggregation router.
>
> 3.1.  Aggregation Router Deployment Model
>
>   A property of routed aggregation networks is that hosts cannot
>   directly communicate with each other even if they share the same
>   prefix.  Physical connectivity between the aggregation router and  
> the
>   modems prevents hosts behind modems to communicate directly with  
> each
>   other.  Hosts send their traffic to aggregation router.  This design
>   is motivated by scaling and security considerations.  If every host
>   could receive all traffic from every other host, then the
>   subscriber's privacy would be violated and the amount of bandwidth
>   available for each subscriber would be very small.  That is why  
> hosts
>   communicate between each other through the aggregation router, which
>   is also the IPv6 first-hop router.
>
>   For scaling reasons, any NS to resolve any address other than that  
> of
>   the default router should not reach the aggregation router.
>
>
>                           +-----+
>                           |     |
>                           |Aggre+----(Rtr CPE)----Host1
>            Core----WAN----+gator|
>                           | Rtr |
>                           |     +----(Br CPE)----(Cust Rtr)----Host2
>                           +-----+
>
>                                 Figure 1.
>
>   In the figure above, the customer premises equipment (CPE) is  
> managed
>   by the ISP and is deployed behind an aggregation router that is an
>   IPv6 first-hop router and also a DHCPv6 relay agent.  IPv6 CPEs are
>   either IPv6 routers (Rtr CPE) or IPv6 bridges (Br CPE).  If the
>   customer premises uses a bridge CPE, then a router (Cust Rtr) is
>   needed.  All hosts reside behind a router CPE or a customer router.
>
>   No NS to resolve any address other than that of the default router
>
>
>
> Singh & Beebee            Expires July 4, 2008                   
> [Page 7]
>
>
> Internet-Draft          ND On-link Determination            January  
> 2008
>
>
>   will reach the aggregation router from any device on the customer
>   side of the aggregator.  CPEs do not communicate with each other in
>   this deployment model since a CPE does not run any applications that
>   need to communicate with other CPEs.  Hosts do communicate with each
>   other, but every host is off-link to any other host on the
>   aggregation router.]
>
> Hemant
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Stark, Barbara
> Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 10:08 AM
> To: Mark Smith; Alan Kavanagh
> Cc: Alastair Johnson; Mikael Abrahamsson; Olaf.Bonness@telekom.de;
> v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: RE: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
>
> My remembrance of why SPs aren't keen to localize routing is quite
> different.
> Originally, cable operators had neighbors all on the same Ethernet
> network. Neighbors were able to discover each other's computers and
> printers (this was before routers were common), and sometimes sniff  
> each
> other's traffic. This was considered a bad thing, from a customer
> security and privacy standpoint. Telco providers decided that they did
> not want to it this way, and effectively made Ethernet connections  
> from
> customers "point-to-point" to an element in the access network.
>
> Today, the access network elements are able to detect a lot of malware
> traffic (especially DDoS attacks), and disconnect customers that are
> infected with malware that presents a security / privacy /
> performance-impacting risk to others. Unfortunately, this is not an
> infrequent occurrence. If customer traffic were somehow able to bypass
> these network elements, it would open up neighbors to attacks by
> infected neighbors. That would be a very bad thing.
>
> Furthermore, in general, there just isn't that much neighbor-to- 
> neighbor
> communication, that would make the savings outweigh the cost of
> implementation. The only neighbor my home trades a lot of traffic with
> (my kids and their kids, gaming) is on a separate network, since we  
> use
> different service providers.
>
> Lack of cost justification and security concerns are the reasons why  
> SPs
> are unlikely to localize traffic within the access network, for  
> general
> consumers.
> Barbara
>
>
>



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 30 14:38:34 2009
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Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:36:18 -0400
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References: <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA08AB7B0B@crexc41p> <35815C929B41D2479A224FE098A27227070BEB0E@ecamlmw720.eamcs.ericsson.se> <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA0DA1B8FA@crexc41p> <BB56240F3A190F469C52A57138047A030206A5AE@xmb-rtp-211.amer.cisco.com> <7582BC68E4994F4ABF0BD4723975C3FA0DA1B935@crexc41p>
From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" <shemant@cisco.com>
To: "Stark, Barbara" <bs7652@att.com>, "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" <wbeebee@cisco.com>, "Alan Kavanagh" <alan.kavanagh@ericsson.com>, <jhw@apple.com>, <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
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Barabra,

=20

Could you please go to the archives of the v6ops mailer so that you
would understand that even after the cable folks did a eRouter
specification, we noticed some glaring problems with that specification
and decided to fix them in an IETF draft.  So let's not get into=20

"It sounds like the cable industry already has its eRouter document and
doesn't really need this".  This is a closed book archives in v6ops.
You can see all the problems we listed in the eRouter in emails to
v6ops.

=20

Then, of course, we wanted to specify a standalone home router which is
what the document has also focused on.   Also, since now the CPE Rtr
document is completed for Cable and also getting there as a standalone
device for core router, I don't understand the disparity you are talking
about.  Please let us know specifically what other disparity has caused
an incomplete embedded CPE Rtr or a standalone router in the IETF v6ops
version of the draft.   Also, sorry Wes didn't mean SNMP when he said
SNMP - he was still talking in generic terms that use whatever is one's
favorite management tool for one's deployment.

=20

Lastly, we just don't see a way out for this MSR issue to go beyond
manual.  May I suggest, before we spend any more time on MSR, can we get
all the DSL requirements and then we can focus better on the whole
requirements set and suggest a holistic guidance.=20

=20

Hemant

=20

=20

From: Stark, Barbara [mailto:bs7652@att.com]=20
Sent: Monday, March 30, 2009 5:14 PM
To: Wes Beebee (wbeebee); Alan Kavanagh; jhw@apple.com;
v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Cc: Hemant Singh (shemant)
Subject: RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments

=20

SPs always have the option of using remote device configuration
protocols (e.g. SNMP, TR-069) to configure CPE routers that they supply.
I do not, realistically, expect retail CPE routers to support any of
these options. For TR-069, BBF can certainly be expected to define
mechanisms to manage the routing table. I assume that your SNMP
suggestions were intended for the cable company managed routers, and
other (e.g. enterprise) SNMP-managed routers.

=20


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<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Barabra,<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Could you please go to the archives of the v6ops mailer =
so that
you would understand that even after the cable folks did a eRouter
specification, we noticed some glaring problems with that specification =
and
decided to fix them in an IETF draft.&nbsp; So let&#8217;s not get into =
<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>&#8220;</span><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>It sounds like the cable industry already has its eRouter
document and doesn&#8217;t really need this&#8221;.&nbsp; This is a =
closed book
archives in v6ops.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You can see all the problems we =
listed in
the eRouter in emails to v6ops.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Then, of course, we wanted to specify a standalone home =
router
which is what the document has also focused on. &nbsp;&nbsp;Also, since =
now the
CPE Rtr document is completed for Cable and also getting there as a =
standalone
device for core router, I don&#8217;t understand the disparity you are =
talking
about.&nbsp; Please let us know specifically what other disparity has =
caused an
incomplete embedded CPE Rtr or a standalone router in the IETF v6ops =
version of
the draft.&nbsp; &nbsp;Also, sorry Wes didn&#8217;t mean SNMP when he =
said SNMP
&#8211; he was still talking in generic terms that use whatever is =
one&#8217;s
favorite management tool for one&#8217;s =
deployment.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Lastly, we just don&#8217;t see a way out for this MSR =
issue to
go beyond manual.&nbsp; May I suggest, before we spend any more time on =
MSR,
can we get all the DSL requirements and then we can focus better on the =
whole
requirements set and suggest a holistic guidance. <o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>Hemant<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

<div>

<div style=3D'border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt =
0in 0in 0in'>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>From:</span>=
</b><span
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'> Stark, =
Barbara
[mailto:bs7652@att.com] <br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, March 30, 2009 5:14 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Wes Beebee (wbeebee); Alan Kavanagh; jhw@apple.com;
v6ops@ops.ietf.org<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Hemant Singh (shemant)<br>
<b>Subject:</b> RE: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 =
comments<o:p></o:p></span></p>

</div>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'>SPs always have the option of using remote device =
configuration
protocols (e.g. SNMP, TR-069) to configure CPE routers that they supply. =
I do
not, realistically, expect retail CPE routers to support any of these =
options.
For TR-069, BBF can certainly be expected to define mechanisms to manage =
the
routing table. I assume that your SNMP suggestions were intended for the =
cable
company managed routers, and other (e.g. enterprise) SNMP-managed =
routers.<o:p></o:p></span></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><span =
style=3D'font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

------_=_NextPart_001_01C9B17F.90C5DF7C--


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Mar 30 14:48:46 2009
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Subject: RE: AW: draft-wbeebee-ipv6-cpe-router-04 comments
Date: Mon, 30 Mar 2009 17:47:54 -0400
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Mark,

>What she says is true but it was a long time ago, in my experience.  I
>remember @home sending an advisory to its customers in the 90's
advising
>them to change Windows 95 settings so their neighbors would not
>be able to view their shared folders.

Sure, I don't disbelieve Barbara.  All I was saying is that a routed
CMTS network will never have this problem and Cisco, for one, has always
built only a routed CMTS.  Before docsis 1.0, there were bridged CMTSs
or even after Docsis 1.0, if a CMTS was only a bridged CMTS, this
problem would arise.  However, the subject of our IETF thread is a
routed IPv6 network at the first hop of the SP which is a CMTS for cable
and BNG for DSL. There may be other DSL models where some other device
is the first hop and not the BNG, but the point of our discussion is the
first hop IPv6 router and any interactions between this SP router and
the home CPE Rtr.=20

Hemant



From guiwu.he@msa.hinet.net  Mon Mar 30 18:48:19 2009
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From: "Helen Crowley" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
To: "Clyde Timmons" <aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org>
Subject: Why get an original watch?
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Why waste your hard-earned money on an expensive watch when you can have the next best thing for a tenth of its price?
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Subject: Longines cheaper than you could imagine!
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From paiyagar@vt.edu  Tue Mar 31 10:39:40 2009
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From: Francis Dupont <Francis.Dupont@fdupont.fr>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
cc: Jeff McAdams <jeffm@iglou.com>, IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look 
In-reply-to: Your message of Sun, 29 Mar 2009 10:43:49 +1300. <49CE9A15.9010806@gmail.com> 
Date: Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:17:54 +0200
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 In your previous mail you wrote:

   Of course. But as Jeroen said, please read RFC3056. The only more-specifics
   under 2002::/8 that make any sense whatsoever are /48, and there would
   *potentially* be about 300,000 of them today, one per announced IPv4 network
   More specifics under 2002::/8 are very much not allowed. Mr R. Bush gave
   us a very hard time about that before RFC3056 was approved.
   
=> unfortunately if someone does it there is nothing we can do (no
Internet police :-). I am afraid one day we regret not have adopted
my proposal to reverse the bits of the embedded IPv4 address, a drastic
way to enforce no spurious injection of the IPv4 mess into the IPv6
routing table...

Regards

Francis.Dupont@fdupont.fr


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Mar 31 13:38:07 2009
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Subject: Re: [74attendees] The great emphasis on IPv6 - a positive look
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Francis Dupont wrote:
>  In your previous mail you wrote:
>=20
>    Of course. But as Jeroen said, please read RFC3056. The only more-sp=
ecifics
>    under 2002::/8 that make any sense whatsoever are /48, and there wou=
ld
>    *potentially* be about 300,000 of them today, one per announced IPv4=
 network
>    More specifics under 2002::/8 are very much not allowed. Mr R. Bush =
gave
>    us a very hard time about that before RFC3056 was approved.
>   =20
> =3D> unfortunately if someone does it there is nothing we can do (no
> Internet police :-). I am afraid one day we regret not have adopted
> my proposal to reverse the bits of the embedded IPv4 address, a drastic=

> way to enforce no spurious injection of the IPv4 mess into the IPv6
> routing table...

That would have been a partial solution indeed that would have voided
any person from attempting to do so indeed ;)

Fortunately 2002::/16 is very well filtered. And people who do try that
one will be shot on site, thus this is a non-issue IMHO.

Greets,
 Jeroen


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Mar 31 15:54:30 2009
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Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security should not be a BCP
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Hemant Singh (shemant) wrote:
>
> I thought before this document moves to a Last Call, it should change=20
> to Informational. None of the information in this document can be=20
> considered to be current practice, let alone be =E2=80=9Cbest practice=E2=
=80=9D=20
> because security from this document hasn=E2=80=99t been implemented yet=
 in an=20
> IPv6 home router by multiple vendors, let alone be considered as=20
> security that is widely deployed and hence be best practice.
>

Best practice can be what the security community recognizes as the best=20
thing that can be done in the situation, even if it is not the 'current=20
practice', or even the 'common practice'.

Sometimes you set the bar and draw the drinkers to it.