From krissiejade@adventinc.com Fri May 1 17:35:10 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2342C3A6944 for ; Fri, 1 May 2009 17:35:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.762 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.762 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_NJABL_PROXY=1.643, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EWJmH1G0MhKJ for ; Fri, 1 May 2009 17:35:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 263.net (unknown [190.48.1.59]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 27EE23A6359 for ; Fri, 1 May 2009 17:35:01 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Fri, 1 May 2009 17:35:01 -0700 (PDT)

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From MAILER-DAEMON Sat May 2 06:47:11 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEEB73A6A1D for ; Sat, 2 May 2009 06:47:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.215 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.215 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.911, BAYES_50=0.001, DRUGS_ERECTILE=1, DRUG_ED_CAPS=0.322, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mPsPmBUviAIp for ; Sat, 2 May 2009 06:47:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta112.mail.tnz.yahoo.co.jp (mta112.mail.tnz.yahoo.co.jp [203.216.242.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2C7D33A6B70 for ; Sat, 2 May 2009 06:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: 2 May 2009 13:48:11 -0000 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-2022-JP"; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit From: MAILER-DAEMON@yahoo.co.jp To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: failure delivery Message-Id: <20090502134648.2C7D33A6B70@core3.amsl.com> Message from yahoo.co.jp. Unable to deliver message to the following address(es). : 58.93.255.223 does not like recipient. Remote host said: 550 Invalid recipient: Giving up on 58.93.255.223. --- Original message follows. Return-Path: The original message is over 5k. Message truncated to 1K. Date: 2 May 2009 13:48:11 -0000 Message-ID: <20090502134811.34159.qmail@mta112.mail.tnz.yahoo.co.jp> X-Yahoo-Forwarded: from v6okajun@yahoo.co.jp to v6okajun@kmail.plala.or.jp X-YahooFilteredBulk: 80.48.25.176 X-Originating-IP: [80.48.25.176] Received-SPF: none (hbt-aec7344a605: domain of v6ops-archive@ietf.org does not designate permitted sender hosts) Authentication-Results: mta112.mail.tnz.yahoo.co.jp from=yahoo.co.jp; domainkeys=neutral (no sig) Received: from 80.48.25.176 (HELO hbt-aec7344a605) (80.48.25.176) by mta112.mail.tnz.yahoo.co.jp with SMTP; Sat, 02 May 2009 22:48:09 +0900 X-Originating-IP: [82.46.13.6] X-Originating-Email: [v6okajun@yahoo.co.jp] X-Sender: v6okajun@yahoo.co.jp To: Subject: RE: SALE 70% 0FF on Pfizer From: VIAGRA "®" Official Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Welcome to WebMD X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D3073A6918 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 13:12:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -74.884 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-74.884 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_HELO_ALMOST_IP=5.417, FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP=1.889, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HOST_EQ_STATIC=1.172, HOST_EQ_STATICIP=1.511, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G-9Oqya9q8od for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 13:12:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 108.Red-88-26-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net (108.Red-88-26-120.staticIP.rima-tde.net [88.26.120.108]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 20A1D3A65A6 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 13:12:05 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery/Shopper [$600/week] From: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090505201208.20A1D3A65A6@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 13:12:05 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: belqksozpkd@gmail.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From ken.derstroff@alcoa.com Tue May 5 16:42:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AA7853A6C91 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 16:42:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -79.334 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-79.334 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_VERIZON_P=2.144, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL=1.495, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CBMZ--32XPCj for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 16:42:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool-96-227-150-211.phlapa.east.verizon.net (pool-98-114-76-124.phlapa.east.verizon.net [98.114.76.124]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 715F83A6C2D for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 16:42:24 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Crisis is Dead! Job for you! From: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090505234225.715F83A6C2D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 16:42:24 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: uxgbypwkcmi@gmail.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From nasirfagiri@algosaibi-gtb.com Tue May 5 17:54:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25AE03A6B00 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 17:54:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -74.974 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-74.974 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FRicgVe34G-1 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 17:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 173-23-160-44.client.mchsi.com (173-23-160-44.client.mchsi.com [173.23.160.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5DB333A6892 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 17:53:57 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery/Shopper [$850/week] From: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090506005359.5DB333A6892@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 17:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: rsxwmtiwbe@gmail.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From knguyen@airtreks.com Tue May 5 19:57:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A3783A68B5 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 19:57:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -77.98 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-77.98 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DTuFD4psg5fp for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 19:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pc-191-15-241-201.cm.vtr.net (pc-191-15-241-201.cm.vtr.net [201.241.15.191]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3AF7D3A6813 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 19:57:37 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery~Secret Shopper [$650/week] From: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090506025738.3AF7D3A6813@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 19:57:37 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: fywmjweltc@gmail.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From maqui_mamblona@aas-sz.com Tue May 5 22:22:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3AB73A68F2 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 22:22:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -79.343 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-79.343 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sxbptmw8SeZq for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 22:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a214-154.adsl.paltel.net (a214-154.adsl.paltel.net [213.6.214.154]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BA93E3A6899 for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 22:22:38 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery Secret Shopper [$700/week] From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090506052241.BA93E3A6899@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 22:22:38 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: sxvwckoaier@gmail.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From mommyliesa@adventinfosoft.com Tue May 5 22:28:41 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03FD83A6A3F for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 22:28:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -87.756 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.756 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XuOFG6Sokh0n for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 22:28:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amrusa.com (unknown [122.163.151.10]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 03F363A692D for ; Tue, 5 May 2009 22:28:36 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery/Shopper [$850/week] From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090506052838.03F363A692D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 5 May 2009 22:28:36 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: ndcuczanvif@gmail.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From olmycewl@alk.com Wed May 6 03:43:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1DF53A680A for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 03:43:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -80.032 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-80.032 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1Gh8BA2ZvyAi for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 03:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from xdsl.230.c71.petrotel.pl (xdsl.230.c71.petrotel.pl [78.154.71.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C9D423A6A73 for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 03:43:42 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery/Shopper [$900/week] From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090506104342.C9D423A6A73@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 03:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: xujcjwlsev@gmail.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From leonnn@alcyon.com Wed May 6 06:53:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36A7E3A63EB for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 06:53:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.786 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.786 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_HU=1.35, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119, HOST_EQ_HU=1.245, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e--JetF71mib for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 06:53:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 91.82.34.19.pool.invitel.hu (91.82.34.19.pool.invitel.hu [91.82.34.19]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 32D283A6CFE for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 06:52:12 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 06:52:12 -0700 (PDT)

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From MAILER-DAEMON Wed May 6 07:12:53 2009 Return-Path: <> X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 631333A67A3 for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 07:12:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.128 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.128 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RELAY_IS_203=0.994] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iBUqB4WpL0Di for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 07:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from b2s1.overthewire.com.au (ns4.overthewire.com.au [203.18.94.253]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B482C3A6B0C for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 07:12:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost) by b2s1.overthewire.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) id n46EDf3U012991; Thu, 7 May 2009 00:13:41 +1000 Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 00:13:41 +1000 From: Mail Delivery Subsystem Message-Id: <200905061413.n46EDf3U012991@b2s1.overthewire.com.au> To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/report; report-type=delivery-status; boundary="n46EDf3U012991.1241619221/b2s1.overthewire.com.au" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Returned mail: see transcript for details Auto-Submitted: auto-generated (failure) This is a MIME-encapsulated message --n46EDf3U012991.1241619221/b2s1.overthewire.com.au The original message was received at Thu, 7 May 2009 00:13:17 +1000 from sun2.net-d.ru [91.203.152.11] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- (reason: 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- ... while talking to mail.centralgroup.com.au.: >>> DATA <<< 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay 550 5.1.1 ... User unknown <<< 503 5.5.2 Need rcpt command --n46EDf3U012991.1241619221/b2s1.overthewire.com.au Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; b2s1.overthewire.com.au Received-From-MTA: DNS; sun2.net-d.ru Arrival-Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 00:13:17 +1000 Final-Recipient: RFC822; v6osmo@central-apartments.com.au Action: failed Status: 5.7.1 Remote-MTA: DNS; mail.centralgroup.com.au Diagnostic-Code: SMTP; 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay Last-Attempt-Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 00:13:30 +1000 --n46EDf3U012991.1241619221/b2s1.overthewire.com.au Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Return-Path: Received: from dom-111f92cbedf (sun2.net-d.ru [91.203.152.11]) by b2s1.overthewire.com.au (8.13.1/8.13.1) with SMTP id n46EDE3U012932 for ; Thu, 7 May 2009 00:13:17 +1000 Date: Thu, 7 May 2009 00:13:14 +1000 Message-Id: <200905061413.n46EDE3U012932@b2s1.overthewire.com.au> X-Originating-IP: [85.4.450.9] X-Originating-Email: [v6osmo@central-apartments.com.au] X-Sender: v6osmo@central-apartments.com.au To: Subject: RE: SALE 70% 0FF on Pfizer From: VIAGRA ® Official Site MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Welcome to WebMD
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From lixingwang@ahedu.gov.cn Wed May 6 13:03:11 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 871403A6A58 for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 13:03:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -87.954 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.954 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RtXHJwuQ6EIu for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 13:03:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from advanced-connect.net (20158041084.user.veloxzone.com.br [201.58.41.84]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 90A6B3A68BC for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 13:03:06 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery~Secret Shopper [$650/week] From: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html X-Antivirus: avast! (VPS 090127-0, 27/01/2009), Outbound message X-Antivirus-Status: Clean Message-Id: <20090506200308.90A6B3A68BC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 13:03:06 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: LouisTranRU@gmail.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From jdh@amaonline.com Wed May 6 14:56:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E9228C1FF for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 14:56:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -67.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-67.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ErxmvrtIUbBo for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 14:56:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 201-68-145-218.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-68-145-218.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.68.145.218]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C191928C0E8 for ; Wed, 6 May 2009 14:55:48 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Crisis is Dead! Job for you! From: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090506215549.C191928C0E8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 6 May 2009 14:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: MyrtleEatonDC@gmail.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
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Examples of details you would forward to us are:
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Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
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* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: MaryanneSykesXM@gmail.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
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From kabinburi_01@nissan-th.com Mon May 11 09:17:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 367913A69A9; Mon, 11 May 2009 09:17:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -35.803 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-35.803 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_ROLEX=5, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX=1.666, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sGybaw7Fb18E; Mon, 11 May 2009 09:17:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h94-75-29-80.ufamts.ru (h94-75-29-80.ufamts.ru [94.75.29.80]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 905F03A6B99; Mon, 11 May 2009 09:17:17 -0700 (PDT) From: "Vincent Frost" TO: <"iporpr-archive@lists.ietf.org, rsvp-archive@lists.ietf.org, spirits-archive@lists.ietf.org, v6ops-archive"@lists.ietf.org> Subject: Check out the Emporio Armani watches! Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 12:18:48 -0500 Message-ID: <04441vqek360QFVVEiporpr-archive@lists.ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit What's the fastest way to a lover's heart? A beautiful and stylish designer watch! http://adjosoiv.cn At Diam0nd Reps we make it easy to get a Rolex, Cartier, Bvlgari or any brand name that you think of. As long as it is considered a high class watch, you will find it in our one of a kind store! http://adjosoiv.cn Enjoy the fastest shipping around, paired with secure billing, incredible customer service and the largest online selection of fine reproduction timepieces only at Diam0nd Reps, of course! From mohandasbarbara@altohiway.com Mon May 11 09:54:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8001D3A693A for ; Mon, 11 May 2009 09:54:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.871 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.871 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_ALMOST_IP=5.417, FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP=1.889, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9QA9gHODqxB6 for ; Mon, 11 May 2009 09:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from LPointe-a-Pitre-151-10-76.w81-248.abo.wanadoo.fr (LPointe-a-Pitre-151-10-76.w81-248.abo.wanadoo.fr [81.248.25.76]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 110A53A68F5 for ; Mon, 11 May 2009 09:53:57 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 09:53:57 -0700 (PDT)

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2008 Rodale Inc., all rights reserved.
Customer Service Department, 33 East Minor Street, Emmaus, PA 18098
From ecky.dehut@hs.utc.com Mon May 11 11:58:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0714F3A6D27; Mon, 11 May 2009 11:58:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -43.234 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-43.234 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, GB_ROLEX=5, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, J_CHICKENPOX_42=0.6, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX=1.666, SORTED_RECIPS=1.125, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CN1UPx+QhA+a; Mon, 11 May 2009 11:58:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from coltel-gw-vpdn-p339.coltel.ru (coltel-gw-vpdn-p339.coltel.ru [83.167.73.86]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E5643A6BE9; Mon, 11 May 2009 11:58:26 -0700 (PDT) From: "Emilio Wade" TO: <"send-archive@megatron.ietf.org, smime-archive@megatron.ietf.org, snmpconf-archive@megatron.ietf.org, spirits-archive@megatron.ietf.org, trade-archive@megatron.ietf.org, v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org, web-archive@megatron.ietf.org, xmldsig-archive"@megatron.ietf.org> Subject: Elegant watches for less than half Date: Mon, 11 May 2009 14:59:42 -0500 Message-ID: <55238vahm884XZCAYsend-archive@megatron.ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Money is tight, times are hard. Christmas is over. Time to get a new Watch! http://cvoxjoi.cn At Diam0nd Reps you will find exactly the watch you're looking for, at prices that will make you blink twice. That's right! Here you can get a Rolex, a Breitling, a Tag or pretty much every fine brand timepiece for less than ten percent their original price! http://cvoxjoi.cn Only Diam0nd Reps offers you unsurpassed quality and award-winning customer service. So, what are you waiting for? From licht-auswahld@amateurmatch.com Tue May 12 11:11:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A07E3A6E2A for ; Tue, 12 May 2009 11:11:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hllwOyq587-j for ; Tue, 12 May 2009 11:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adandweb.com (unknown [200.121.243.223]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 47BC328C1E9 for ; Tue, 12 May 2009 11:11:36 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 11:11:36 -0700 (PDT)

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2008 Rodale Inc., all rights reserved.
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From order@amica-mia.com Tue May 12 18:13:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D055A3A6B68 for ; Tue, 12 May 2009 18:13:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.34 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.34 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GkQ5dcLDSnqS for ; Tue, 12 May 2009 18:13:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alexandriatoyota.dealerspace.com (unknown [187.23.1.69]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 456CD3A6863 for ; Tue, 12 May 2009 18:13:40 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 18:13:40 -0700 (PDT)

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From mikael.svard@alphyra.se Tue May 12 22:42:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 490EE3A6B4E for ; Tue, 12 May 2009 22:42:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -9.823 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-9.823 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gplEYsnh1wq0 for ; Tue, 12 May 2009 22:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allaboutsymbian.com (200-219-79-74.ggs6102.3g.brasiltelecom.net.br [200.219.79.74]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EFC213A63EC for ; Tue, 12 May 2009 22:42:50 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Tue, 12 May 2009 22:42:50 -0700 (PDT)

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 13 12:59:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C9B33A700A for ; Wed, 13 May 2009 12:59:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.127 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.127 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.232, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lNRZ3QNU4oQB for ; Wed, 13 May 2009 12:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6901B3A6FFA for ; Wed, 13 May 2009 12:58:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4KXH-0004OD-7f for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 13 May 2009 19:54:39 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.72] (helo=sj-iport-3.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4KX2-0004ND-Ou for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 13 May 2009 19:54:32 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,190,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="161513838" Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-3.cisco.com with ESMTP; 13 May 2009 19:54:22 +0000 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n4DJsMjW029028 for ; Wed, 13 May 2009 12:54:22 -0700 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com [10.32.244.221]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n4DJsLPO024708 for ; Wed, 13 May 2009 19:54:22 GMT Message-Id: From: Fred Baker To: IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Subject: IPv6 Operations Scheduling for IETF 75 Date: Wed, 13 May 2009 12:54:19 -0700 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=381; t=1242244462; x=1243108462; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20IPv6=20Operations=20Scheduling=20for=20IETF=207 5 |Sender:=20; bh=DAHCwvsaNcxta3MIVZJRxI920zbZJn7+3ies9FjEAao=; b=QN/T8YK2qC1yoeR7vnmWHDsmn2isPtk+aJlEusvhati/DPXmk+hDOV1Pdi lxTQsVtib6BA6nvob2Wg5+oI1V5WxFoyVY0U3OY8aSA5AJS2m4gRpgTBhroa 3LSFUu1sYE; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: All, The scheduling has begun for the upcoming meeting in Stockholm. The chairs are soliciting agenda items for the v6ops meeting. If you have an item for the agenda, please send a request to the chairs that includes: the topic, draft name, time needed, and presenter's name. I will be repeating the request toward the end of June. Regards, Fred and Kurtis From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 13 17:47:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C53A73A68F6 for ; Wed, 13 May 2009 17:47:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.018 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.018 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.087, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wto5jZoKLicj for ; Wed, 13 May 2009 17:47:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D00553A67BD for ; Wed, 13 May 2009 17:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4P3v-000NFR-5O for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 14 May 2009 00:44:39 +0000 Received: from [119.145.14.67] (helo=szxga04-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4P3d-000ND6-G2 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 14 May 2009 00:44:32 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KJL00FUKZDUZF@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 14 May 2009 08:44:18 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KJL00L1LZDU5L@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 14 May 2009 08:44:18 +0800 (CST) Received: from j66104a ([10.111.12.91]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KJL00BJIZDRJI@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 14 May 2009 08:44:18 +0800 (CST) Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 08:44:17 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang Subject: FW:New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn In-reply-to: <20090508034237.ABE583A69FE@core3.amsl.com> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Cc: guoseu@huawei.com, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com Message-id: <001d01c9d42d$1cf4c570$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcnPkUKFbpVx/CNsTnuvvRntzrHL7QEmvucg Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Dear all, A revised version of draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn has been submitted to v6ops WG. It had been represented by Brian Carpenter in v6ops meeting in IETF 74 as draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 and received positive comments also modification comments. We have integrated these comments into this version. Please review and comments on it. Many thanks. Best regards, Sheng > Filename: draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > Version: 00 > Staging URL: > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn-00.txt > > Title: An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT > (CGN) for IPv6 Transition > Creation_date: 2009-05-08 > WG ID: Indvidual Submission > Number_of_pages: 11 > Abstract: > Global IPv6 deployment was slower than originally expected in > the last ten years. As IPv4 address exhaustion gets closer, > the IPv4/IPv6 transition issues become more critical and > complicated. Host-based transition mechanisms are not able to > meet the requirements while most end users are not > sufficiently expert to configure or maintain these transition > mechanisms. Carrier Grade NAT with integrated transition > mechanisms can simplify the operation of end users during the > IPv4/IPv6 migration or coexistence period. This document > proposes an incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) solution for > IPv6 transition. > It can provide IPv6 access services for IPv6-enabled end hosts and > IPv4 access services for IPv4 end hosts while remaining most > of legacy IPv4 ISP networks unchanged. It is suitable for the > initial stage of IPv4/IPv6 migration. Unlike CGN alone, it > also supports and encourages transition towards dual-stack or > IPv6-only ISP networks. > > Submitter: Sheng Jiang (shengjiang@huawei.com) > > Author(s): > Sheng Jiang, shengjiang@huawei.com > Dayong Guo, guoseu@huawei.com > Brian Carpenter, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > > Comment: > Replacement for draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 > > From lpxpeaiyu@agdbio.com Thu May 14 00:29:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B22CC3A6A9A for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 00:29:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -28.775 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-28.775 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.482, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4gjgph-GFzt5 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 00:29:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aep.com (unknown [189.97.207.54]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AB8FB3A6F21 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 00:29:25 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 00:29:25 -0700 (PDT)

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu May 14 08:41:30 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB5D028C27D for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 08:41:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.654 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.654 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.359, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xykXr61rSt1G for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 08:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5716128C0CE for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 08:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4cz3-000HMU-PC for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 14 May 2009 15:36:33 +0000 Received: from [130.76.64.48] (helo=slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4cyq-000HKf-Cu for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 14 May 2009 15:36:27 +0000 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (stl-av-01.boeing.com [192.76.190.6]) by slb-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id n4EFHska020499 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 14 May 2009 08:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4EFHsWr009288; Thu, 14 May 2009 10:17:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4EFHhqA009043; Thu, 14 May 2009 10:17:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 14 May 2009 08:17:52 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 08:17:50 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F06D5B@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <001d01c9d42d$1cf4c570$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Thread-Index: AcnPkUKFbpVx/CNsTnuvvRntzrHL7QEmvucgABysmrA= References: <20090508034237.ABE583A69FE@core3.amsl.com> <001d01c9d42d$1cf4c570$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Sheng Jiang" , Cc: , , "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 May 2009 15:17:52.0957 (UTC) FILETIME=[26A256D0:01C9D4A7] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Dear authors, The document is clean and concise, which is appreciated. However, section 3.2 seems to be showing preference toward a particular tunneling technology, and I'd like to understand that better. To understand this, we must first observe that the 6rd approach relies on anycast for CPE router accessing of IPv6 routers within the IPv4 ISP network. The idea of anycast was entertained and abandoned by the ISATAP team in the 2001/2002 timeframe when ISATAP was still being developed in the ngtrans working group. This came after much discussion among authors and guidance from the working group. Reasons include: 1) if the tunnel fragments, fragments of the same packet may go to different anycast-addressed routers. 2) with anycast, there is no opportunity for default router selection (when there are multiple) 3) with anycast, there is no opportunity for traffic engineering 4) with anycast, IPv6 neighbor discovery over the tunnel may yield unpredictable results 5) with anycast, there is need for a manual provisioning of IPv6 prefixes and IPv4 anycast address on the CPE router. We next observe that the 6rd mechanism is rooted in a customized IPv6 prefix configuration that embeds an IPv4 address. First, this would require that a quite large IPv6 prefix (e.g., a /24) be delegated to the ISP were its customers to obtain even a /56 as the largest possible prefix. Such a prefix would be used only sparsely, as only a small portion of the IPv4 address space may be available for assignment to CPE routers. Secondly, the only mode of operation afforded is Provider-Aggregated, i.e., there is no provision for CPE use of Provider-Independent prefixes. I suspect you know where I'm going with this, but take each of the deficiencies named above and apply VET, and you will see that VET robustly covers all of these cases and more. Indeed, with VET as the phase 1 deployment, there would be no need for a phase 2, and no need for any IPv6 readdressing as VET uses unmodified IPv6 prefixes natively. The VET model asks only that CPE routers become VET enterprise border routers, that CGNs become VET enterprise border gateways, and that the ISP name service be provisioned with resource records for border gateway discovery. In other words, the VET deployment touches exactly the same CPE/PE equipment that the 6rd approach touches, and VET asks only that the ISP network administrators add a few resource records to the DNS. If there are doubts as to how VET satisfies each of these use cases, I will be happy to explain in follow-up. In your section 3.6, we note a strong recommendation for a tunnel MTU of at least 1500 bytes and I concur with this recommendation. Were that not the case, customer devices would be constantly inconvenienced with excessive ICMP PTB messages reporting degenerate MTUs for crossing the ISP network. We also note that SEAL uniquely and correctly provides the tunnel 1500 MTU assurance that incremental cgn is seeking, and moreover note that larger MTUs (e.g., 9K) are robustly and naturally discovered when customer devices request them. Please see also RANGER Scenarios (RANGERS) for additional insight into the application of VET and SEAL into the ISP network problem space: http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-russert-rangers http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-autoconf-dhcp http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-seal Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com=20 =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:44 PM > To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org > Cc: guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > Subject: FW:New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >=20 > Dear all, >=20 > A revised version of draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn has been submitted to > v6ops WG. It had been represented by Brian Carpenter in v6ops meeting in > IETF 74 as draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 and received positive comments > also modification comments. We have integrated these comments into this > version. >=20 > Please review and comments on it. Many thanks. >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > Sheng >=20 > > Filename: draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > Version: 00 > > Staging URL: > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn-00.txt > > > > Title: An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT > > (CGN) for IPv6 Transition > > Creation_date: 2009-05-08 > > WG ID: Indvidual Submission > > Number_of_pages: 11 > > Abstract: > > Global IPv6 deployment was slower than originally expected in > > the last ten years. As IPv4 address exhaustion gets closer, > > the IPv4/IPv6 transition issues become more critical and > > complicated. Host-based transition mechanisms are not able to > > meet the requirements while most end users are not > > sufficiently expert to configure or maintain these transition > > mechanisms. Carrier Grade NAT with integrated transition > > mechanisms can simplify the operation of end users during the > > IPv4/IPv6 migration or coexistence period. This document > > proposes an incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) solution for > > IPv6 transition. > > It can provide IPv6 access services for IPv6-enabled end hosts and > > IPv4 access services for IPv4 end hosts while remaining most > > of legacy IPv4 ISP networks unchanged. It is suitable for the > > initial stage of IPv4/IPv6 migration. Unlike CGN alone, it > > also supports and encourages transition towards dual-stack or > > IPv6-only ISP networks. > > > > Submitter: Sheng Jiang (shengjiang@huawei.com) > > > > Author(s): > > Sheng Jiang, shengjiang@huawei.com > > Dayong Guo, guoseu@huawei.com > > Brian Carpenter, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > > > > > Comment: > > Replacement for draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 > > > > >=20 >=20 From jkleinn@advantech.com.br Thu May 14 09:19:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8913A67F0 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 09:19:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.557 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.557 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4SCxxfCp9Ncb for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 09:19:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pc-175-134-83-200.cm.vtr.net (pc-175-134-83-200.cm.vtr.net [200.83.134.175]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CD36C3A703A for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 09:19:23 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 09:19:23 -0700 (PDT)

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu May 14 15:04:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A8F28C314 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 15:04:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.759 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.759 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.464, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id g+DoBdCmbMHC for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 15:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18DA828C275 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 15:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4iyY-000MZG-Mz for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 14 May 2009 22:00:26 +0000 Received: from [209.85.198.227] (helo=rv-out-0506.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4iyK-000MYJ-Sp for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 14 May 2009 22:00:20 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id g37so957099rvb.41 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 15:00:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kZNo9rmm7OqjdKkrKYJQhxCsa07z2xp8Q9bHEnyDF+A=; b=uiqcQekaTHm6++O5s0LfPwa5uKHJ+SUTRmyKhrNsGoBjSlAidApavOyVehKeQYCM/k dNb/SOpW4BJ1Jo7slU4rV/4WAIJCYVVOFzqHOaO5tmDYgujQindQMOQv9LzE8RmvIrgX Fy6x0RWZjurMhkn529Bt72Cj5IjjrNqactZqg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=teK5bMZ/35wjKx/tQhq6VuhEf5RP8jF3ZxnTArt2IBSqTZtghQv1CcXAZ3DuuCFLvE 7+0YKPwnDtzNvz163d7aQ99+vMax8OCptSG/aeRiiXR9+14NVGBYfyYXCNQ9aLNxsxcC s6ARC4Z1Ny6zMhHowJ2W0pXJJPGu4h7hvTedI= Received: by 10.141.162.1 with SMTP id p1mr933929rvo.277.1242338411914; Thu, 14 May 2009 15:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? (stf-brian.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f21sm1471744rvb.35.2009.05.14.15.00.08 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 14 May 2009 15:00:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4A0C9466.3070401@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 10:00:06 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Templin, Fred L" CC: Sheng Jiang , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" , =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVzcHLDqXM=?= Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn References: <20090508034237.ABE583A69FE@core3.amsl.com> <001d01c9d42d$1cf4c570$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F06D5B@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F06D5B@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Fred, Regards Brian Carpenter University of Auckland On 2009-05-15 03:17, Templin, Fred L wrote: > Dear authors, > > The document is clean and concise, which is appreciated. > However, section 3.2 seems to be showing preference > toward a particular tunneling technology, and I'd like > to understand that better. > > To understand this, we must first observe that the 6rd > approach relies on anycast for CPE router accessing of > IPv6 routers within the IPv4 ISP network. The idea of > anycast was entertained and abandoned by the ISATAP > team in the 2001/2002 timeframe when ISATAP was still > being developed in the ngtrans working group. This came > after much discussion among authors and guidance from > the working group. Reasons include: > > 1) if the tunnel fragments, fragments of the same packet > may go to different anycast-addressed routers. > > 2) with anycast, there is no opportunity for default > router selection (when there are multiple) > > 3) with anycast, there is no opportunity for traffic > engineering > > 4) with anycast, IPv6 neighbor discovery over the > tunnel may yield unpredictable results When I look at the 6rd draft, I don't really see why the relay needs to be anycast - as far as I can see it could be genuinely unicast (since there is no semantic difference for the CPE or the relay; it's only anycast if the ISP sets up its IGP to make it anycast). So the real question is how the CPE knows the 6rd relay address, which is also a question for RFC3056. There are of course many possible answers to that, e.g. a DHCP(v4) option. Personally I think a provisioned unicast address may be better, because of your points 1-4. > > 5) with anycast, there is need for a manual provisioning > of IPv6 prefixes and IPv4 anycast address on the CPE > router. Which IPv6 prefixes? The CPE builds its IPv6 prefix from its external IPv4 address, which it gets in the traditional way. > > We next observe that the 6rd mechanism is rooted in a > customized IPv6 prefix configuration that embeds an > IPv4 address. First, this would require that a quite > large IPv6 prefix (e.g., a /24) be delegated to the > ISP were its customers to obtain even a /56 as the > largest possible prefix. Such a prefix would be used > only sparsely, as only a small portion of the IPv4 > address space may be available for assignment to CPE > routers. Yes. Are we running out of /24s yet? > Secondly, the only mode of operation afforded > is Provider-Aggregated, i.e., there is no provision for > CPE use of Provider-Independent prefixes. Yes. I would expect this method to be used for SOHO subscribers, not for larger customers who might use PI. > > I suspect you know where I'm going with this, but take > each of the deficiencies named above and apply VET, and > you will see that VET robustly covers all of these cases > and more. Indeed, with VET as the phase 1 deployment, > there would be no need for a phase 2, and no need for > any IPv6 readdressing as VET uses unmodified IPv6 > prefixes natively. > > The VET model asks only that CPE routers become VET > enterprise border routers, that CGNs become VET > enterprise border gateways, and that the ISP name > service be provisioned with resource records for > border gateway discovery. In other words, the VET > deployment touches exactly the same CPE/PE equipment > that the 6rd approach touches, and VET asks only that > the ISP network administrators add a few resource > records to the DNS. If there are doubts as to how > VET satisfies each of these use cases, I will be > happy to explain in follow-up. I don't see this for SOHO subscribers using $50 CPEs, frankly, but I could be wrong. Brian > > In your section 3.6, we note a strong recommendation > for a tunnel MTU of at least 1500 bytes and I concur > with this recommendation. Were that not the case, > customer devices would be constantly inconvenienced > with excessive ICMP PTB messages reporting degenerate > MTUs for crossing the ISP network. We also note that > SEAL uniquely and correctly provides the tunnel 1500 > MTU assurance that incremental cgn is seeking, and > moreover note that larger MTUs (e.g., 9K) are robustly > and naturally discovered when customer devices request > them. Please see also RANGER Scenarios (RANGERS) for > additional insight into the application of VET and > SEAL into the ISP network problem space: > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-russert-rangers > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-autoconf-dhcp > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-seal > > Fred > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:44 PM >> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org >> Cc: guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com >> Subject: FW:New Version Notification for > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >> Dear all, >> >> A revised version of draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn has been > submitted to >> v6ops WG. It had been represented by Brian Carpenter in v6ops meeting > in >> IETF 74 as draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 and received positive > comments >> also modification comments. We have integrated these comments into > this >> version. >> >> Please review and comments on it. Many thanks. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Sheng >> >>> Filename: draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >>> Version: 00 >>> Staging URL: >>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn-00.txt >>> >>> Title: An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT >>> (CGN) for IPv6 Transition >>> Creation_date: 2009-05-08 >>> WG ID: Indvidual Submission >>> Number_of_pages: 11 >>> Abstract: >>> Global IPv6 deployment was slower than originally expected in >>> the last ten years. As IPv4 address exhaustion gets closer, >>> the IPv4/IPv6 transition issues become more critical and >>> complicated. Host-based transition mechanisms are not able to >>> meet the requirements while most end users are not >>> sufficiently expert to configure or maintain these transition >>> mechanisms. Carrier Grade NAT with integrated transition >>> mechanisms can simplify the operation of end users during the >>> IPv4/IPv6 migration or coexistence period. This document >>> proposes an incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) solution for >>> IPv6 transition. >>> It can provide IPv6 access services for IPv6-enabled end hosts and >>> IPv4 access services for IPv4 end hosts while remaining most >>> of legacy IPv4 ISP networks unchanged. It is suitable for the >>> initial stage of IPv4/IPv6 migration. Unlike CGN alone, it >>> also supports and encourages transition towards dual-stack or >>> IPv6-only ISP networks. >>> >>> Submitter: Sheng Jiang (shengjiang@huawei.com) >>> >>> Author(s): >>> Sheng Jiang, shengjiang@huawei.com >>> Dayong Guo, guoseu@huawei.com >>> Brian Carpenter, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com >>> >>> >>> Comment: >>> Replacement for draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 >>> >>> >> > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu May 14 15:51:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0CC03A6821 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 15:51:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.747 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.747 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.452, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2hd2+5vCGj1R for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 15:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25A673A7085 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 15:51:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4jlI-000Psq-9t for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 14 May 2009 22:50:48 +0000 Received: from [209.85.198.236] (helo=rv-out-0506.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4jl4-000Pro-U2 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 14 May 2009 22:50:41 +0000 Received: by rv-out-0506.google.com with SMTP id g37so965488rvb.41 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 15:50:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gikk5TxtT780sgSDbSRrbDGU8lXQNYiFUbVa04mTOHI=; b=dOHhUQ1Qev0VssQEyp1BYdLo0RtUh3RDKdiQfKPlKVOyRb5FMNx9DPldRfPdj0dE4K OyYE34t3sE8HrgeGlMWpfxGC3X8iVDFB/5xfUcEAbKHBou8hl/mAZnYCocvsxbFzfWiQ hGCFxJik5onbF2WdumekYJWQg/4q0dYk8LEi4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=DMzkqbeJ+j4KwEqNCBrc7R5bGapXEh6kvqgGWUH7uRyor87BYeXk6G2zwrnnrKWwp0 7+dWUFKLdcJ8f+80981W63ZeBwjGY2VLdxm03roH8PbT5er3/E/y3jc9pBO7cRFd573M kujHDntG/z9JNOQbHeI6jgwk5GpporcVWpGgg= Received: by 10.141.4.20 with SMTP id g20mr970591rvi.173.1242341433917; Thu, 14 May 2009 15:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?130.216.38.124? (stf-brian.sfac.auckland.ac.nz [130.216.38.124]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k37sm1576689rvb.8.2009.05.14.15.50.31 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Thu, 14 May 2009 15:50:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4A0CA034.1070308@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 10:50:28 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Templin, Fred L" CC: Sheng Jiang , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" , =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVzcHLDqXM=?= Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn References: <20090508034237.ABE583A69FE@core3.amsl.com> <001d01c9d42d$1cf4c570$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F06D5B@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F06D5B@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Fred, (My previous message was somewhat inscrutable. See in-line.) On 2009-05-15 03:17, Templin, Fred L wrote: > Dear authors, > > The document is clean and concise, which is appreciated. > However, section 3.2 seems to be showing preference > toward a particular tunneling technology, and I'd like > to understand that better. > > To understand this, we must first observe that the 6rd > approach relies on anycast for CPE router accessing of > IPv6 routers within the IPv4 ISP network. The idea of > anycast was entertained and abandoned by the ISATAP > team in the 2001/2002 timeframe when ISATAP was still > being developed in the ngtrans working group. This came > after much discussion among authors and guidance from > the working group. Reasons include: > > 1) if the tunnel fragments, fragments of the same packet > may go to different anycast-addressed routers. > > 2) with anycast, there is no opportunity for default > router selection (when there are multiple) > > 3) with anycast, there is no opportunity for traffic > engineering > > 4) with anycast, IPv6 neighbor discovery over the > tunnel may yield unpredictable results When I look at the 6rd draft, I don't really see why the relay needs to be anycast - as far as I can see it could be genuinely unicast (since there is no semantic difference for the CPE or the relay; it's only anycast if the ISP sets up its IGP to make it anycast). So the real question is how the CPE knows the 6rd relay address, which is also a question for RFC3056. There are of course many possible answers to that, e.g. a DHCP(v4) option. Personally I think a provisioned unicast address may be better, because of your points 1-4. > > 5) with anycast, there is need for a manual provisioning > of IPv6 prefixes and IPv4 anycast address on the CPE > router. Which IPv6 prefixes? The CPE builds its IPv6 prefix from its external IPv4 address, which it gets in the traditional way. > > We next observe that the 6rd mechanism is rooted in a > customized IPv6 prefix configuration that embeds an > IPv4 address. First, this would require that a quite > large IPv6 prefix (e.g., a /24) be delegated to the > ISP were its customers to obtain even a /56 as the > largest possible prefix. Such a prefix would be used > only sparsely, as only a small portion of the IPv4 > address space may be available for assignment to CPE > routers. Yes. Are we running out of /24s yet? > Secondly, the only mode of operation afforded > is Provider-Aggregated, i.e., there is no provision for > CPE use of Provider-Independent prefixes. Yes. I would expect this method to be used for SOHO subscribers, not for larger customers who might use PI. > > I suspect you know where I'm going with this, but take > each of the deficiencies named above and apply VET, and > you will see that VET robustly covers all of these cases > and more. Indeed, with VET as the phase 1 deployment, > there would be no need for a phase 2, and no need for > any IPv6 readdressing as VET uses unmodified IPv6 > prefixes natively. > > The VET model asks only that CPE routers become VET > enterprise border routers, that CGNs become VET > enterprise border gateways, and that the ISP name > service be provisioned with resource records for > border gateway discovery. In other words, the VET > deployment touches exactly the same CPE/PE equipment > that the 6rd approach touches, and VET asks only that > the ISP network administrators add a few resource > records to the DNS. If there are doubts as to how > VET satisfies each of these use cases, I will be > happy to explain in follow-up. I don't see this for SOHO subscribers using $50 CPEs, frankly, but I could be wrong. Thanks Brian > > In your section 3.6, we note a strong recommendation > for a tunnel MTU of at least 1500 bytes and I concur > with this recommendation. Were that not the case, > customer devices would be constantly inconvenienced > with excessive ICMP PTB messages reporting degenerate > MTUs for crossing the ISP network. We also note that > SEAL uniquely and correctly provides the tunnel 1500 > MTU assurance that incremental cgn is seeking, and > moreover note that larger MTUs (e.g., 9K) are robustly > and naturally discovered when customer devices request > them. Please see also RANGER Scenarios (RANGERS) for > additional insight into the application of VET and > SEAL into the ISP network problem space: > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-russert-rangers > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-autoconf-dhcp > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-seal > > Fred > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:44 PM >> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org >> Cc: guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com >> Subject: FW:New Version Notification for > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >> Dear all, >> >> A revised version of draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn has been > submitted to >> v6ops WG. It had been represented by Brian Carpenter in v6ops meeting > in >> IETF 74 as draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 and received positive > comments >> also modification comments. We have integrated these comments into > this >> version. >> >> Please review and comments on it. Many thanks. >> >> Best regards, >> >> Sheng >> >>> Filename: draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >>> Version: 00 >>> Staging URL: >>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn-00.txt >>> >>> Title: An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT >>> (CGN) for IPv6 Transition >>> Creation_date: 2009-05-08 >>> WG ID: Indvidual Submission >>> Number_of_pages: 11 >>> Abstract: >>> Global IPv6 deployment was slower than originally expected in >>> the last ten years. As IPv4 address exhaustion gets closer, >>> the IPv4/IPv6 transition issues become more critical and >>> complicated. Host-based transition mechanisms are not able to >>> meet the requirements while most end users are not >>> sufficiently expert to configure or maintain these transition >>> mechanisms. Carrier Grade NAT with integrated transition >>> mechanisms can simplify the operation of end users during the >>> IPv4/IPv6 migration or coexistence period. This document >>> proposes an incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) solution for >>> IPv6 transition. >>> It can provide IPv6 access services for IPv6-enabled end hosts and >>> IPv4 access services for IPv4 end hosts while remaining most >>> of legacy IPv4 ISP networks unchanged. It is suitable for the >>> initial stage of IPv4/IPv6 migration. Unlike CGN alone, it >>> also supports and encourages transition towards dual-stack or >>> IPv6-only ISP networks. >>> >>> Submitter: Sheng Jiang (shengjiang@huawei.com) >>> >>> Author(s): >>> Sheng Jiang, shengjiang@huawei.com >>> Dayong Guo, guoseu@huawei.com >>> Brian Carpenter, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com >>> >>> >>> Comment: >>> Replacement for draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 >>> >>> >> > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu May 14 16:04:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AC3A3A67EA for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 16:04:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.627 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.627 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.332, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ouyh3pIBLk6 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 16:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D23A73A686C for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 16:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4jwy-0000bV-E0 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 14 May 2009 23:02:52 +0000 Received: from [130.76.96.56] (helo=stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4jwU-0000ZM-Q6 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 14 May 2009 23:02:38 +0000 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (stl-av-01.boeing.com [192.76.190.6]) by stl-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id n4EN29C5028681 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 14 May 2009 18:02:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4EN28qN022104; Thu, 14 May 2009 18:02:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4EN1rLT021528; Thu, 14 May 2009 18:02:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 14 May 2009 16:02:07 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 16:02:04 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <4A0CA034.1070308@gmail.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Thread-Index: AcnU5mVhVUExpoQ6QPymR0u6p7FkcQAADJ8w References: <20090508034237.ABE583A69FE@core3.amsl.com> <001d01c9d42d$1cf4c570$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F06D5B@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A0CA034.1070308@gmail.com> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: "Sheng Jiang" , , , "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= X-OriginalArrivalTime: 14 May 2009 23:02:07.0927 (UTC) FILETIME=[017D7470:01C9D4E8] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 3:50 PM > To: Templin, Fred L > Cc: Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; Fleischman, = Eric; Russert, Steven W; R=E9mi > Despr=E9s > Subject: Re: New Version Notification for = draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >=20 > Fred, >=20 > (My previous message was somewhat inscrutable. See in-line.) >=20 > On 2009-05-15 03:17, Templin, Fred L wrote: > > Dear authors, > > > > The document is clean and concise, which is appreciated. > > However, section 3.2 seems to be showing preference > > toward a particular tunneling technology, and I'd like > > to understand that better. > > > > To understand this, we must first observe that the 6rd > > approach relies on anycast for CPE router accessing of > > IPv6 routers within the IPv4 ISP network. The idea of > > anycast was entertained and abandoned by the ISATAP > > team in the 2001/2002 timeframe when ISATAP was still > > being developed in the ngtrans working group. This came > > after much discussion among authors and guidance from > > the working group. Reasons include: > > > > 1) if the tunnel fragments, fragments of the same packet > > may go to different anycast-addressed routers. > > > > 2) with anycast, there is no opportunity for default > > router selection (when there are multiple) > > > > 3) with anycast, there is no opportunity for traffic > > engineering > > > > 4) with anycast, IPv6 neighbor discovery over the > > tunnel may yield unpredictable results >=20 > When I look at the 6rd draft, I don't really see why the relay needs > to be anycast - as far as I can see it could be genuinely unicast > (since there is no semantic difference for the CPE or the relay; > it's only anycast if the ISP sets up its IGP to make it anycast). > So the real question is how the CPE knows the 6rd relay address, > which is also a question for RFC3056. There are of course many > possible answers to that, e.g. a DHCP(v4) option. ISATAP and VET already have answers for that ([RFC5214], Sections 8.3.2 and 9). If 6rd wants to do the same thing, it would just be re-inventing the wheel. =20 > Personally I think a provisioned unicast address may be better, > because of your points 1-4. Provisioned unicast addresses are already the subject matter for ISATAP/VET Potential Router List (PRL) initialization. Is a new spec needed? > > 5) with anycast, there is need for a manual provisioning > > of IPv6 prefixes and IPv4 anycast address on the CPE > > router. >=20 > Which IPv6 prefixes? The CPE builds its IPv6 prefix from its > external IPv4 address, which it gets in the traditional way. The CPE needs to learn the provider's IPv6 prefix reserved for 6rd purposes. Unless there is some form of automated discovery (e.g., PIOs in RAs), the IPv6 prefix would need to be manually provisioned. > > We next observe that the 6rd mechanism is rooted in a > > customized IPv6 prefix configuration that embeds an > > IPv4 address. First, this would require that a quite > > large IPv6 prefix (e.g., a /24) be delegated to the > > ISP were its customers to obtain even a /56 as the > > largest possible prefix. Such a prefix would be used > > only sparsely, as only a small portion of the IPv4 > > address space may be available for assignment to CPE > > routers. >=20 > Yes. Are we running out of /24s yet? Are we running out of /24s? I really don't know. Do I know waste when I see it? I think so. =20 > > Secondly, the only mode of operation afforded > > is Provider-Aggregated, i.e., there is no provision for > > CPE use of Provider-Independent prefixes. >=20 > Yes. I would expect this method to be used for SOHO subscribers, > not for larger customers who might use PI. But, do you know what the service model will look like 5-10yrs down the line? (Maybe coexisting wireless broadband and cable modem?) Do you even know what a SOHO network will look like 5-10yrs down the line? PI is as some point going to become attractive to enterprises of any size - not necessarily just the big ones.=20 > > I suspect you know where I'm going with this, but take > > each of the deficiencies named above and apply VET, and > > you will see that VET robustly covers all of these cases > > and more. Indeed, with VET as the phase 1 deployment, > > there would be no need for a phase 2, and no need for > > any IPv6 readdressing as VET uses unmodified IPv6 > > prefixes natively. > > > > The VET model asks only that CPE routers become VET > > enterprise border routers, that CGNs become VET > > enterprise border gateways, and that the ISP name > > service be provisioned with resource records for > > border gateway discovery. In other words, the VET > > deployment touches exactly the same CPE/PE equipment > > that the 6rd approach touches, and VET asks only that > > the ISP network administrators add a few resource > > records to the DNS. If there are doubts as to how > > VET satisfies each of these use cases, I will be > > happy to explain in follow-up. >=20 > I don't see this for SOHO subscribers using $50 CPEs, > frankly, but I could be wrong. Let's just have an awareness about this up front. Then, we will have to explain to the customers years down the line why we copped out and gave them a moped when they could have had a 'VET. Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com >=20 > Thanks >=20 > Brian >=20 > > > > In your section 3.6, we note a strong recommendation > > for a tunnel MTU of at least 1500 bytes and I concur > > with this recommendation. Were that not the case, > > customer devices would be constantly inconvenienced > > with excessive ICMP PTB messages reporting degenerate > > MTUs for crossing the ISP network. We also note that > > SEAL uniquely and correctly provides the tunnel 1500 > > MTU assurance that incremental cgn is seeking, and > > moreover note that larger MTUs (e.g., 9K) are robustly > > and naturally discovered when customer devices request > > them. Please see also RANGER Scenarios (RANGERS) for > > additional insight into the application of VET and > > SEAL into the ISP network problem space: > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-russert-rangers > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-autoconf-dhcp > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-seal > > > > Fred > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com] > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:44 PM > >> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org > >> Cc: guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > >> Subject: FW:New Version Notification for > > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > >> Dear all, > >> > >> A revised version of draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn has been > > submitted to > >> v6ops WG. It had been represented by Brian Carpenter in v6ops = meeting > > in > >> IETF 74 as draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 and received positive > > comments > >> also modification comments. We have integrated these comments into > > this > >> version. > >> > >> Please review and comments on it. Many thanks. > >> > >> Best regards, > >> > >> Sheng > >> > >>> Filename: draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > >>> Version: 00 > >>> Staging URL: > >>> http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn-00.txt > >>> > >>> Title: An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT > >>> (CGN) for IPv6 Transition > >>> Creation_date: 2009-05-08 > >>> WG ID: Indvidual Submission > >>> Number_of_pages: 11 > >>> Abstract: > >>> Global IPv6 deployment was slower than originally expected in > >>> the last ten years. As IPv4 address exhaustion gets closer, > >>> the IPv4/IPv6 transition issues become more critical and > >>> complicated. Host-based transition mechanisms are not able to > >>> meet the requirements while most end users are not > >>> sufficiently expert to configure or maintain these transition > >>> mechanisms. Carrier Grade NAT with integrated transition > >>> mechanisms can simplify the operation of end users during the > >>> IPv4/IPv6 migration or coexistence period. This document > >>> proposes an incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) solution for > >>> IPv6 transition. > >>> It can provide IPv6 access services for IPv6-enabled end hosts and > >>> IPv4 access services for IPv4 end hosts while remaining most > >>> of legacy IPv4 ISP networks unchanged. It is suitable for the > >>> initial stage of IPv4/IPv6 migration. Unlike CGN alone, it > >>> also supports and encourages transition towards dual-stack or > >>> IPv6-only ISP networks. > >>> > >>> Submitter: Sheng Jiang (shengjiang@huawei.com) > >>> > >>> Author(s): > >>> Sheng Jiang, shengjiang@huawei.com > >>> Dayong Guo, guoseu@huawei.com > >>> Brian Carpenter, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> Comment: > >>> Replacement for draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 > >>> > >>> > >> > > > > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu May 14 19:18:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DE023A6CD1 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 19:18:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.328 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.328 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.378, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B9SF836SSby0 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 19:18:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D8CA3A6CC0 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 19:18:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4mut-000CFk-Rx for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 15 May 2009 02:12:55 +0000 Received: from [119.145.14.64] (helo=szxga01-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4mub-000CEh-Aj for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 02:12:48 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KJN00409Y4VUZ@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 10:12:31 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.33]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KJN00LI7Y4VBG@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 10:12:31 +0800 (CST) Received: from j66104a ([10.111.12.91]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KJN00AR6Y4RVC@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 10:12:31 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 10:12:26 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn In-reply-to: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> To: "'Templin, Fred L'" , 'Brian E Carpenter' Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "'Fleischman, Eric'" , "'Russert, Steven W'" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?'R=E9mi_Despr=E9s'?= Message-id: <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thread-index: AcnU5mVhVUExpoQ6QPymR0u6p7FkcQAADJ8wAAZUSSA= Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Fred, Thanks for your comments. Although I can agree on you the disadvantages of anycast, anycast has = its advantages and suitable scenarios, too. Furthermore, I don't think 6rd depends on anycast. Remi may give us clarification. However, our draft does no intend to make judge of 6rd, or other tunnel techonogies. We actually would like to list serveral suitable tunnel techonogies with brief introductions in order to complete our puzzle. As = we ready state in the draft, "ISATAP or VET are also be considered." = Actually, one thing we can do for next version is to expand this section a little = bit, to include brief introductions for Auto GRE, ISATAP and VET. However, we also think 6rd is suitable and do not want to rule it out. Best regards, Sheng > -----Original Message----- > From: Templin, Fred L [mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com]=20 > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 7:02 AM > To: Brian E Carpenter > Cc: Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com;=20 > Fleischman, Eric; Russert, Steven W; R=E9mi Despr=E9s > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for=20 > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >=20 >=20 >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] > > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 3:50 PM > > To: Templin, Fred L > > Cc: Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; Fleischman,=20 > > Eric; Russert, Steven W; R=E9mi Despr=E9s > > Subject: Re: New Version Notification for=20 > > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > >=20 > > Fred, > >=20 > > (My previous message was somewhat inscrutable. See in-line.) > >=20 > > On 2009-05-15 03:17, Templin, Fred L wrote: > > > Dear authors, > > > > > > The document is clean and concise, which is appreciated. > > > However, section 3.2 seems to be showing preference toward a=20 > > > particular tunneling technology, and I'd like to understand that=20 > > > better. > > > > > > To understand this, we must first observe that the 6rd approach=20 > > > relies on anycast for CPE router accessing of > > > IPv6 routers within the IPv4 ISP network. The idea of anycast was=20 > > > entertained and abandoned by the ISATAP team in the 2001/2002=20 > > > timeframe when ISATAP was still being developed in the ngtrans=20 > > > working group. This came after much discussion among authors and=20 > > > guidance from the working group. Reasons include: > > > > > > 1) if the tunnel fragments, fragments of the same packet > > > may go to different anycast-addressed routers. > > > > > > 2) with anycast, there is no opportunity for default > > > router selection (when there are multiple) > > > > > > 3) with anycast, there is no opportunity for traffic > > > engineering > > > > > > 4) with anycast, IPv6 neighbor discovery over the > > > tunnel may yield unpredictable results > >=20 > > When I look at the 6rd draft, I don't really see why the=20 > relay needs=20 > > to be anycast - as far as I can see it could be genuinely unicast=20 > > (since there is no semantic difference for the CPE or the=20 > relay; it's=20 > > only anycast if the ISP sets up its IGP to make it anycast). > > So the real question is how the CPE knows the 6rd relay=20 > address, which=20 > > is also a question for RFC3056. There are of course many possible=20 > > answers to that, e.g. a DHCP(v4) option. >=20 > ISATAP and VET already have answers for that ([RFC5214],=20 > Sections 8.3.2 and 9). If 6rd wants to do the same thing, it=20 > would just be re-inventing the wheel. > =20 > > Personally I think a provisioned unicast address may be better,=20 > > because of your points 1-4. >=20 > Provisioned unicast addresses are already the subject matter=20 > for ISATAP/VET Potential Router List (PRL) initialization. Is=20 > a new spec needed? >=20 > > > 5) with anycast, there is need for a manual provisioning > > > of IPv6 prefixes and IPv4 anycast address on the CPE > > > router. > >=20 > > Which IPv6 prefixes? The CPE builds its IPv6 prefix from=20 > its external=20 > > IPv4 address, which it gets in the traditional way. >=20 > The CPE needs to learn the provider's IPv6 prefix reserved=20 > for 6rd purposes. Unless there is some form of automated=20 > discovery (e.g., PIOs in RAs), the IPv6 prefix would need to=20 > be manually provisioned. >=20 > > > We next observe that the 6rd mechanism is rooted in a customized=20 > > > IPv6 prefix configuration that embeds an > > > IPv4 address. First, this would require that a quite large IPv6=20 > > > prefix (e.g., a /24) be delegated to the ISP were its=20 > customers to=20 > > > obtain even a /56 as the largest possible prefix. Such a prefix=20 > > > would be used only sparsely, as only a small portion of the IPv4=20 > > > address space may be available for assignment to CPE routers. > >=20 > > Yes. Are we running out of /24s yet? >=20 > Are we running out of /24s? I really don't know. Do I know=20 > waste when I see it? I think so. > =20 > > > Secondly, the only mode of operation afforded is=20 > > > Provider-Aggregated, i.e., there is no provision for CPE use of=20 > > > Provider-Independent prefixes. > >=20 > > Yes. I would expect this method to be used for SOHO=20 > subscribers, not=20 > > for larger customers who might use PI. >=20 > But, do you know what the service model will look like=20 > 5-10yrs down the line? (Maybe coexisting wireless broadband=20 > and cable modem?) Do you even know what a SOHO network will=20 > look like 5-10yrs down the line? > PI is as some point going to become attractive to enterprises=20 > of any size - not necessarily just the big ones.=20 >=20 > > > I suspect you know where I'm going with this, but take=20 > each of the=20 > > > deficiencies named above and apply VET, and you will see that VET=20 > > > robustly covers all of these cases and more. Indeed, with=20 > VET as the=20 > > > phase 1 deployment, there would be no need for a phase 2, and no=20 > > > need for any IPv6 readdressing as VET uses unmodified=20 > IPv6 prefixes=20 > > > natively. > > > > > > The VET model asks only that CPE routers become VET enterprise=20 > > > border routers, that CGNs become VET enterprise border=20 > gateways, and=20 > > > that the ISP name service be provisioned with resource=20 > records for=20 > > > border gateway discovery. In other words, the VET=20 > deployment touches=20 > > > exactly the same CPE/PE equipment that the 6rd approach=20 > touches, and=20 > > > VET asks only that the ISP network administrators add a=20 > few resource=20 > > > records to the DNS. If there are doubts as to how VET=20 > satisfies each=20 > > > of these use cases, I will be happy to explain in follow-up. > >=20 > > I don't see this for SOHO subscribers using $50 CPEs,=20 > frankly, but I=20 > > could be wrong. >=20 > Let's just have an awareness about this up front. Then, we=20 > will have to explain to the customers years down the line why=20 > we copped out and gave them a moped when they could have had a 'VET. >=20 > Fred > fred.l.templin@boeing.com >=20 > >=20 > > Thanks > >=20 > > Brian > >=20 > > > > > > In your section 3.6, we note a strong recommendation for a tunnel=20 > > > MTU of at least 1500 bytes and I concur with this recommendation.=20 > > > Were that not the case, customer devices would be constantly=20 > > > inconvenienced with excessive ICMP PTB messages reporting=20 > degenerate=20 > > > MTUs for crossing the ISP network. We also note that SEAL=20 > uniquely=20 > > > and correctly provides the tunnel 1500 MTU assurance that=20 > > > incremental cgn is seeking, and moreover note that larger MTUs=20 > > > (e.g., 9K) are robustly and naturally discovered when customer=20 > > > devices request them. Please see also RANGER Scenarios=20 > (RANGERS) for=20 > > > additional insight into the application of VET and SEAL=20 > into the ISP=20 > > > network problem space: > > > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-russert-rangers > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-autoconf-dhcp > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-seal > > > > > > Fred > > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com] > > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:44 PM > > >> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org > > >> Cc: guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > >> Subject: FW:New Version Notification for > > > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > >> Dear all, > > >> > > >> A revised version of draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn has been > > > submitted to > > >> v6ops WG. It had been represented by Brian Carpenter in v6ops=20 > > >> meeting > > > in > > >> IETF 74 as draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 and received positive > > > comments > > >> also modification comments. We have integrated these=20 > comments into > > > this > > >> version. > > >> > > >> Please review and comments on it. Many thanks. > > >> > > >> Best regards, > > >> > > >> Sheng > > >> > > >>> Filename: draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > >>> Version: 00 > > >>> Staging URL: > > >>>=20 > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn-00.txt > > >>> > > >>> Title: An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT > > >>> (CGN) for IPv6 Transition > > >>> Creation_date: 2009-05-08 > > >>> WG ID: Indvidual Submission > > >>> Number_of_pages: 11 > > >>> Abstract: > > >>> Global IPv6 deployment was slower than originally=20 > expected in the=20 > > >>> last ten years. As IPv4 address exhaustion gets closer, the=20 > > >>> IPv4/IPv6 transition issues become more critical and=20 > complicated.=20 > > >>> Host-based transition mechanisms are not able to meet the=20 > > >>> requirements while most end users are not sufficiently=20 > expert to=20 > > >>> configure or maintain these transition mechanisms.=20 > Carrier Grade=20 > > >>> NAT with integrated transition mechanisms can simplify the=20 > > >>> operation of end users during the > > >>> IPv4/IPv6 migration or coexistence period. This=20 > document proposes=20 > > >>> an incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) solution for > > >>> IPv6 transition. > > >>> It can provide IPv6 access services for IPv6-enabled=20 > end hosts and > > >>> IPv4 access services for IPv4 end hosts while remaining most of=20 > > >>> legacy IPv4 ISP networks unchanged. It is suitable for=20 > the initial=20 > > >>> stage of IPv4/IPv6 migration. Unlike CGN alone, it also=20 > supports=20 > > >>> and encourages transition towards dual-stack or IPv6-only ISP=20 > > >>> networks. > > >>> > > >>> Submitter: Sheng Jiang (shengjiang@huawei.com) > > >>> > > >>> Author(s): > > >>> Sheng Jiang, shengjiang@huawei.com Dayong Guo,=20 > guoseu@huawei.com=20 > > >>> Brian Carpenter, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> Comment: > > >>> Replacement for draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 > > >>> > > >>> > > >> > > > > > > > > > >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu May 14 19:47:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3203C3A704C for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 19:47:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.065 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.065 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l4ko+2jnKQQ0 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 19:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 640C13A6BFE for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 19:47:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4nQT-000EOV-Sp for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 15 May 2009 02:45:33 +0000 Received: from [119.145.14.67] (helo=szxga04-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4nQH-000ENi-Qe for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 02:45:27 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KJN00CKBZNIHL@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 10:45:18 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.24]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KJN009IPZNID1@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 10:45:18 +0800 (CST) Received: from j66104a ([10.111.12.91]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KJN00CAPZNE49@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 10:45:18 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 10:45:15 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang Subject: RE: IPv6 Operations Scheduling for IETF 75 In-reply-to: To: 'Fred Baker' , 'IPv6 Operations' Message-id: <000201c9d507$2d5a26a0$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcnUCJMg0xgHm5HJRNmSNqpca5eM4gA/jYog Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Dear chair, Could you arrange a short time slot for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn update with speaker to be decided? Many thanks and best regards, Sheng > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 3:54 AM > To: IPv6 Operations > Subject: IPv6 Operations Scheduling for IETF 75 > > All, > The scheduling has begun for the upcoming meeting in Stockholm. > The chairs are soliciting agenda items for the v6ops meeting. > If you have an item for the agenda, please send a request to > the chairs that > includes: the topic, draft name, time needed, and presenter's name. > > I will be repeating the request toward the end of June. > > Regards, > Fred and Kurtis > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu May 14 19:55:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5876328C350 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 19:55:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.069 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.069 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.036, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4R4hOKHFtnlE for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 19:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D13D28C24E for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 19:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4nZh-000Ewp-On for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 15 May 2009 02:55:05 +0000 Received: from [119.145.14.66] (helo=szxga03-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4nZU-000Ew1-Um for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 02:54:59 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KJO0027C03879@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 10:54:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.1.33]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KJO00GJO038AQ@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 10:54:44 +0800 (CST) Received: from j66104a ([10.111.12.91]) by szxml06-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0KJO00BQ3034K3@szxml06-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 10:54:44 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 10:54:41 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang Subject: RE: IPv6 Operations Scheduling for IETF 75 In-reply-to: To: 'Fred Baker' , 'IPv6 Operations' Cc: =?gb2312?B?J9Dsvai35ic=?= , 'Brian Carpenter' Message-id: <000301c9d508$7f05f000$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=gb2312 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcnUCJMg0xgHm5HJRNmSNqpca5eM4gA/xW+w Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Dear v6ops chair, We would like to present our new draft-xu-v6ops-hybrid-framework-00 (it is replacement for draft-xu-v6ops-hybrid-platform-ps-00). Could you arrange a time slot for us with speaker to be decided? Many thanks and best regards, Sheng > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 3:54 AM > To: IPv6 Operations > Subject: IPv6 Operations Scheduling for IETF 75 > > All, > The scheduling has begun for the upcoming meeting in Stockholm. > The chairs are soliciting agenda items for the v6ops meeting. > If you have an item for the agenda, please send a request to > the chairs that > includes: the topic, draft name, time needed, and presenter's name. > > I will be repeating the request toward the end of June. > > Regards, > Fred and Kurtis > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu May 14 22:23:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D178D3A6F42 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 22:23:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.123 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.123 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.228, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5rPc8a3V-WS0 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 22:23:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D63353A6BC5 for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 22:23:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4ppW-000Nsc-PI for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 15 May 2009 05:19:34 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.70] (helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4ppK-000Nrj-3p for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 05:19:28 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,198,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="185840831" Received: from sj-dkim-4.cisco.com ([171.71.179.196]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 May 2009 05:19:21 +0000 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-4.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n4F5JLtm027671; Thu, 14 May 2009 22:19:21 -0700 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com [10.32.244.221]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n4F5JLDD009847; Fri, 15 May 2009 05:19:21 GMT Cc: "'IPv6 Operations'" , "=?GB2312?Q?'=D0=EC=BD=A8=B7=E6'?=" , "'Brian Carpenter'" Message-Id: <4D881D12-C8AF-47F7-BCAC-96EFE137751C@cisco.com> From: Fred Baker To: Sheng Jiang In-Reply-To: <000301c9d508$7f05f000$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Subject: Re: IPv6 Operations Scheduling for IETF 75 Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 22:19:18 -0700 References: <000301c9d508$7f05f000$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=1017; t=1242364761; x=1243228761; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim4002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20IPv6=20Operations=20Scheduling=20for=20 IETF=2075 |Sender:=20; bh=KAisS+rBzdiHIayO5v0Twrry6xjUlmqzV/p+bf5GptA=; b=M4lbQ0XzN+o+h6uCm/Oqy8vtUOlOs6nN9EFM0QCj4SyNWA23RMNXxtmwHv euaFQTxie1sRDbbZsSpZX2agC/uV1rbJNipE8Ho/teSs4D4hwnC3pAWSOaDF ukig2GXyU5; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-4; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim4002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Sure. On May 14, 2009, at 7:54 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote: > Dear v6ops chair, > > We would like to present our new draft-xu-v6ops-hybrid-framework-00 > (it is > replacement for draft-xu-v6ops-hybrid-platform-ps-00). Could you > arrange a > time slot for us with speaker to be decided? > > Many thanks and best regards, > > Sheng > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org >> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker >> Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 3:54 AM >> To: IPv6 Operations >> Subject: IPv6 Operations Scheduling for IETF 75 >> >> All, >> The scheduling has begun for the upcoming meeting in Stockholm. >> The chairs are soliciting agenda items for the v6ops meeting. >> If you have an item for the agenda, please send a request to >> the chairs that >> includes: the topic, draft name, time needed, and presenter's name. >> >> I will be repeating the request toward the end of June. >> >> Regards, >> Fred and Kurtis >> >> > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu May 14 22:23:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA3AB3A709D for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 22:23:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -105.114 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-105.114 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.219, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uyloLllPjT5k for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 22:23:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C22DC3A6E0E for ; Thu, 14 May 2009 22:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4pqD-000Nwx-49 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 15 May 2009 05:20:17 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4ppy-000NvP-RC for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 05:20:10 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,198,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="304849627" Received: from sj-dkim-2.cisco.com ([171.71.179.186]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 15 May 2009 05:20:02 +0000 Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com (sj-core-1.cisco.com [171.71.177.237]) by sj-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n4F5K25m031494; Thu, 14 May 2009 22:20:02 -0700 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-221.cisco.com [10.32.244.221]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n4F5JLDE009847; Fri, 15 May 2009 05:20:02 GMT Cc: "'IPv6 Operations'" Message-Id: <6D40332F-56C6-4CA7-B8A0-F4A7D5507789@cisco.com> From: Fred Baker To: Sheng Jiang In-Reply-To: <000201c9d507$2d5a26a0$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v935.3) Subject: Re: IPv6 Operations Scheduling for IETF 75 Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 22:20:01 -0700 References: <000201c9d507$2d5a26a0$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.935.3) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=916; t=1242364802; x=1243228802; c=relaxed/simple; s=sjdkim2002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=fred@cisco.com; z=From:=20Fred=20Baker=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20IPv6=20Operations=20Scheduling=20for=20 IETF=2075 |Sender:=20; bh=IVDNHTDPFd5gJSEIoQER6oztgTc8lcb2wDy39aAPgDw=; b=XaiSDGqjt3Z8s2N1A8ubxdKxVnpvq4/oZbuKpeVC32aP85Rt3U9UPo1YqU QUTvTH/dEdXaTs03ObWq8qtfHWbFtnils++h/y+fZ6PDp+E1BgRVDiqZPoY7 kvwdQqcRhj; Authentication-Results: sj-dkim-2; header.From=fred@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/sjdkim2002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: sure On May 14, 2009, at 7:45 PM, Sheng Jiang wrote: > Dear chair, > > Could you arrange a short time slot for draft-jiang-v6ops- > incremental-cgn > update with speaker to be decided? > > Many thanks and best regards, > > Sheng > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org >> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker >> Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 3:54 AM >> To: IPv6 Operations >> Subject: IPv6 Operations Scheduling for IETF 75 >> >> All, >> The scheduling has begun for the upcoming meeting in Stockholm. >> The chairs are soliciting agenda items for the v6ops meeting. >> If you have an item for the agenda, please send a request to >> the chairs that >> includes: the topic, draft name, time needed, and presenter's name. >> >> I will be repeating the request toward the end of June. >> >> Regards, >> Fred and Kurtis >> >> > > From ripleynoot@hotmail.com Fri May 15 02:46:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ED023A70B0; Fri, 15 May 2009 02:46:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -22.548 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-22.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HOST_EQ_AU=0.327, HOST_EQ_STATIC=1.172, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6EtQI4Pfxd4x; Fri, 15 May 2009 02:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 123-2-191-151.static.dsl.dodo.com.au (123-2-191-151.static.dsl.dodo.com.au [123.2.191.151]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2D9A828C380; Fri, 15 May 2009 02:46:20 -0700 (PDT) To: "Russell Young" Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 05:47:53 -0500 Subject: Get your IWC watch now Message-ID: From: "Laura Rubin" Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hello Abe Spring is the time to get Vacheron Constantin watch, and the only place to get top notch watches that look and perform exactly like the originals is http://www.jewlery-top.com Get two deeply discounted watches and take an extra 15% discount. http://www.jewlery-top.com Our Vacheron Constantin watches have perfect weight and feel same as orginal. Sincerely, Mr Shipman From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri May 15 05:22:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 105953A6BD2 for ; Fri, 15 May 2009 05:22:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.307, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DtkkiH9PNfDh for ; Fri, 15 May 2009 05:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3515C3A691E for ; Fri, 15 May 2009 05:21:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4wMo-0004F3-Gz for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 15 May 2009 12:18:22 +0000 Received: from [130.76.32.69] (helo=blv-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M4wMb-0004Dg-GI for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 12:18:15 +0000 Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (slb-av-01.boeing.com [129.172.13.4]) by blv-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id n4FCHufA023335 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 15 May 2009 05:17:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4FCHuMG010308; Fri, 15 May 2009 05:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4FCHuiB010305; Fri, 15 May 2009 05:17:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 15 May 2009 05:17:56 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 05:17:54 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Thread-Index: AcnU5mVhVUExpoQ6QPymR0u6p7FkcQAADJ8wAAZUSSAAFZ3dIA== References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Sheng Jiang" , "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: , , "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 May 2009 12:17:56.0296 (UTC) FILETIME=[2DBC5C80:01C9D557] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Sheng, > -----Original Message----- > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com] > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 7:12 PM > To: Templin, Fred L; 'Brian E Carpenter' > Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; Fleischman, Eric; Russert, = Steven W; 'R=E9mi Despr=E9s' > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for = draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >=20 > Fred, >=20 > Thanks for your comments. >=20 > Although I can agree on you the disadvantages of anycast, anycast has = its > advantages and suitable scenarios, too. Furthermore, I don't think 6rd > depends on anycast. Remi may give us clarification. As near as I can tell, the contribution of 6rd is the definition of a "stateless" prefix delegation mechanism; everything else is just intra-site tunneling, and 6rd would do well to look at the ISATAP/VET mechanisms that already handle this. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > However, our draft does no intend to make judge of 6rd, or other = tunnel > techonogies. We actually would like to list serveral suitable tunnel > techonogies with brief introductions in order to complete our puzzle. = As we > ready state in the draft, "ISATAP or VET are also be considered." = Actually, > one thing we can do for next version is to expand this section a = little bit, > to include brief introductions for Auto GRE, ISATAP and VET. However, = we > also think 6rd is suitable and do not want to rule it out. >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > Sheng >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Templin, Fred L [mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com] > > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 7:02 AM > > To: Brian E Carpenter > > Cc: Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; > > Fleischman, Eric; Russert, Steven W; R=E9mi Despr=E9s > > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for > > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] > > > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 3:50 PM > > > To: Templin, Fred L > > > Cc: Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; = Fleischman, > > > Eric; Russert, Steven W; R=E9mi Despr=E9s > > > Subject: Re: New Version Notification for > > > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > > > > > Fred, > > > > > > (My previous message was somewhat inscrutable. See in-line.) > > > > > > On 2009-05-15 03:17, Templin, Fred L wrote: > > > > Dear authors, > > > > > > > > The document is clean and concise, which is appreciated. > > > > However, section 3.2 seems to be showing preference toward a > > > > particular tunneling technology, and I'd like to understand that > > > > better. > > > > > > > > To understand this, we must first observe that the 6rd approach > > > > relies on anycast for CPE router accessing of > > > > IPv6 routers within the IPv4 ISP network. The idea of anycast = was > > > > entertained and abandoned by the ISATAP team in the 2001/2002 > > > > timeframe when ISATAP was still being developed in the ngtrans > > > > working group. This came after much discussion among authors and > > > > guidance from the working group. Reasons include: > > > > > > > > 1) if the tunnel fragments, fragments of the same packet > > > > may go to different anycast-addressed routers. > > > > > > > > 2) with anycast, there is no opportunity for default > > > > router selection (when there are multiple) > > > > > > > > 3) with anycast, there is no opportunity for traffic > > > > engineering > > > > > > > > 4) with anycast, IPv6 neighbor discovery over the > > > > tunnel may yield unpredictable results > > > > > > When I look at the 6rd draft, I don't really see why the > > relay needs > > > to be anycast - as far as I can see it could be genuinely unicast > > > (since there is no semantic difference for the CPE or the > > relay; it's > > > only anycast if the ISP sets up its IGP to make it anycast). > > > So the real question is how the CPE knows the 6rd relay > > address, which > > > is also a question for RFC3056. There are of course many possible > > > answers to that, e.g. a DHCP(v4) option. > > > > ISATAP and VET already have answers for that ([RFC5214], > > Sections 8.3.2 and 9). If 6rd wants to do the same thing, it > > would just be re-inventing the wheel. > > > > > Personally I think a provisioned unicast address may be better, > > > because of your points 1-4. > > > > Provisioned unicast addresses are already the subject matter > > for ISATAP/VET Potential Router List (PRL) initialization. Is > > a new spec needed? > > > > > > 5) with anycast, there is need for a manual provisioning > > > > of IPv6 prefixes and IPv4 anycast address on the CPE > > > > router. > > > > > > Which IPv6 prefixes? The CPE builds its IPv6 prefix from > > its external > > > IPv4 address, which it gets in the traditional way. > > > > The CPE needs to learn the provider's IPv6 prefix reserved > > for 6rd purposes. Unless there is some form of automated > > discovery (e.g., PIOs in RAs), the IPv6 prefix would need to > > be manually provisioned. > > > > > > We next observe that the 6rd mechanism is rooted in a customized > > > > IPv6 prefix configuration that embeds an > > > > IPv4 address. First, this would require that a quite large IPv6 > > > > prefix (e.g., a /24) be delegated to the ISP were its > > customers to > > > > obtain even a /56 as the largest possible prefix. Such a prefix > > > > would be used only sparsely, as only a small portion of the IPv4 > > > > address space may be available for assignment to CPE routers. > > > > > > Yes. Are we running out of /24s yet? > > > > Are we running out of /24s? I really don't know. Do I know > > waste when I see it? I think so. > > > > > > Secondly, the only mode of operation afforded is > > > > Provider-Aggregated, i.e., there is no provision for CPE use of > > > > Provider-Independent prefixes. > > > > > > Yes. I would expect this method to be used for SOHO > > subscribers, not > > > for larger customers who might use PI. > > > > But, do you know what the service model will look like > > 5-10yrs down the line? (Maybe coexisting wireless broadband > > and cable modem?) Do you even know what a SOHO network will > > look like 5-10yrs down the line? > > PI is as some point going to become attractive to enterprises > > of any size - not necessarily just the big ones. > > > > > > I suspect you know where I'm going with this, but take > > each of the > > > > deficiencies named above and apply VET, and you will see that = VET > > > > robustly covers all of these cases and more. Indeed, with > > VET as the > > > > phase 1 deployment, there would be no need for a phase 2, and no > > > > need for any IPv6 readdressing as VET uses unmodified > > IPv6 prefixes > > > > natively. > > > > > > > > The VET model asks only that CPE routers become VET enterprise > > > > border routers, that CGNs become VET enterprise border > > gateways, and > > > > that the ISP name service be provisioned with resource > > records for > > > > border gateway discovery. In other words, the VET > > deployment touches > > > > exactly the same CPE/PE equipment that the 6rd approach > > touches, and > > > > VET asks only that the ISP network administrators add a > > few resource > > > > records to the DNS. If there are doubts as to how VET > > satisfies each > > > > of these use cases, I will be happy to explain in follow-up. > > > > > > I don't see this for SOHO subscribers using $50 CPEs, > > frankly, but I > > > could be wrong. > > > > Let's just have an awareness about this up front. Then, we > > will have to explain to the customers years down the line why > > we copped out and gave them a moped when they could have had a 'VET. > > > > Fred > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > In your section 3.6, we note a strong recommendation for a = tunnel > > > > MTU of at least 1500 bytes and I concur with this = recommendation. > > > > Were that not the case, customer devices would be constantly > > > > inconvenienced with excessive ICMP PTB messages reporting > > degenerate > > > > MTUs for crossing the ISP network. We also note that SEAL > > uniquely > > > > and correctly provides the tunnel 1500 MTU assurance that > > > > incremental cgn is seeking, and moreover note that larger MTUs > > > > (e.g., 9K) are robustly and naturally discovered when customer > > > > devices request them. Please see also RANGER Scenarios > > (RANGERS) for > > > > additional insight into the application of VET and SEAL > > into the ISP > > > > network problem space: > > > > > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-russert-rangers > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-autoconf-dhcp > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-seal > > > > > > > > Fred > > > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com] > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:44 PM > > > >> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org > > > >> Cc: guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > > >> Subject: FW:New Version Notification for > > > > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > > >> Dear all, > > > >> > > > >> A revised version of draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn has been > > > > submitted to > > > >> v6ops WG. It had been represented by Brian Carpenter in v6ops > > > >> meeting > > > > in > > > >> IETF 74 as draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 and received positive > > > > comments > > > >> also modification comments. We have integrated these > > comments into > > > > this > > > >> version. > > > >> > > > >> Please review and comments on it. Many thanks. > > > >> > > > >> Best regards, > > > >> > > > >> Sheng > > > >> > > > >>> Filename: draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > > >>> Version: 00 > > > >>> Staging URL: > > > >>> > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn-00.txt > > > >>> > > > >>> Title: An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT > > > >>> (CGN) for IPv6 Transition > > > >>> Creation_date: 2009-05-08 > > > >>> WG ID: Indvidual Submission > > > >>> Number_of_pages: 11 > > > >>> Abstract: > > > >>> Global IPv6 deployment was slower than originally > > expected in the > > > >>> last ten years. As IPv4 address exhaustion gets closer, the > > > >>> IPv4/IPv6 transition issues become more critical and > > complicated. > > > >>> Host-based transition mechanisms are not able to meet the > > > >>> requirements while most end users are not sufficiently > > expert to > > > >>> configure or maintain these transition mechanisms. > > Carrier Grade > > > >>> NAT with integrated transition mechanisms can simplify the > > > >>> operation of end users during the > > > >>> IPv4/IPv6 migration or coexistence period. This > > document proposes > > > >>> an incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) solution for > > > >>> IPv6 transition. > > > >>> It can provide IPv6 access services for IPv6-enabled > > end hosts and > > > >>> IPv4 access services for IPv4 end hosts while remaining most = of > > > >>> legacy IPv4 ISP networks unchanged. It is suitable for > > the initial > > > >>> stage of IPv4/IPv6 migration. Unlike CGN alone, it also > > supports > > > >>> and encourages transition towards dual-stack or IPv6-only ISP > > > >>> networks. > > > >>> > > > >>> Submitter: Sheng Jiang (shengjiang@huawei.com) > > > >>> > > > >>> Author(s): > > > >>> Sheng Jiang, shengjiang@huawei.com Dayong Guo, > > guoseu@huawei.com > > > >>> Brian Carpenter, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >>> Comment: > > > >>> Replacement for draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri May 15 12:40:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95ABC3A6C31 for ; Fri, 15 May 2009 12:40:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.577 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.577 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.282, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_23=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qP98F7vLYZ09 for ; Fri, 15 May 2009 12:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 394013A6FB9 for ; Fri, 15 May 2009 12:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M53D1-000MJ3-4S for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 15 May 2009 19:36:43 +0000 Received: from [130.76.64.48] (helo=slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M53Ck-000MFY-0h for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 15 May 2009 19:36:36 +0000 Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (slb-av-01.boeing.com [129.172.13.4]) by slb-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id n4FJaG2o015730 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 15 May 2009 12:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4FJaGR4021209; Fri, 15 May 2009 12:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4FJaCX4021109; Fri, 15 May 2009 12:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 15 May 2009 12:36:13 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 12:36:12 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Thread-Index: AcnU5mVhVUExpoQ6QPymR0u6p7FkcQAADJ8wAAZUSSAAFZ3dIAAPNIAg References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Sheng Jiang" , "Brian E Carpenter" Cc: , , "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= X-OriginalArrivalTime: 15 May 2009 19:36:13.0648 (UTC) FILETIME=[682DD500:01C9D594] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Templin, Fred L > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 5:18 AM > To: Sheng Jiang; Brian E Carpenter > Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; Fleischman, Eric; Russert, = Steven W; R=E9mi Despr=E9s > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for = draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >=20 > Hi Sheng, >=20 > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com] > > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 7:12 PM > > To: Templin, Fred L; 'Brian E Carpenter' > > Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; Fleischman, Eric; = Russert, Steven W; 'R=E9mi Despr=E9s' > > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for = draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > > > Fred, > > > > Thanks for your comments. > > > > Although I can agree on you the disadvantages of anycast, anycast = has its > > advantages and suitable scenarios, too. Furthermore, I don't think = 6rd > > depends on anycast. Remi may give us clarification. >=20 > As near as I can tell, the contribution of 6rd is the > definition of a "stateless" prefix delegation mechanism; > everything else is just intra-site tunneling, and 6rd > would do well to look at the ISATAP/VET mechanisms that > already handle this. With this said, I'd like to propose something toward Remi. You will be wanting some way for CPE devices to discover the ISP's 6rd-relays IPv6 prefix. This can be easily accommodated by defining a new DHCPv6 option (the "6rd Prefix Option"?) for which the sole purpose is to convey a prefix and prefix length. The CPE device can then use Stateless DHCPv6 to obtain the prefix from a relay/server in the ISP network via IPv6/IPv4 tunneling. The address of the relay/server can be discovered using the PRL discovery mechanisms of ISATAP [RFC5214]. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > Thanks - Fred > fred.l.templin@boeing.com >=20 > > However, our draft does no intend to make judge of 6rd, or other = tunnel > > techonogies. We actually would like to list serveral suitable tunnel > > techonogies with brief introductions in order to complete our = puzzle. As we > > ready state in the draft, "ISATAP or VET are also be considered." = Actually, > > one thing we can do for next version is to expand this section a = little bit, > > to include brief introductions for Auto GRE, ISATAP and VET. = However, we > > also think 6rd is suitable and do not want to rule it out. > > > > Best regards, > > > > Sheng > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: Templin, Fred L [mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com] > > > Sent: Friday, May 15, 2009 7:02 AM > > > To: Brian E Carpenter > > > Cc: Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; > > > Fleischman, Eric; Russert, Steven W; R=E9mi Despr=E9s > > > Subject: RE: New Version Notification for > > > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > > > > > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: Brian E Carpenter [mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com] > > > > Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 3:50 PM > > > > To: Templin, Fred L > > > > Cc: Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; = Fleischman, > > > > Eric; Russert, Steven W; R=E9mi Despr=E9s > > > > Subject: Re: New Version Notification for > > > > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > > > > > > > Fred, > > > > > > > > (My previous message was somewhat inscrutable. See in-line.) > > > > > > > > On 2009-05-15 03:17, Templin, Fred L wrote: > > > > > Dear authors, > > > > > > > > > > The document is clean and concise, which is appreciated. > > > > > However, section 3.2 seems to be showing preference toward a > > > > > particular tunneling technology, and I'd like to understand = that > > > > > better. > > > > > > > > > > To understand this, we must first observe that the 6rd = approach > > > > > relies on anycast for CPE router accessing of > > > > > IPv6 routers within the IPv4 ISP network. The idea of anycast = was > > > > > entertained and abandoned by the ISATAP team in the 2001/2002 > > > > > timeframe when ISATAP was still being developed in the ngtrans > > > > > working group. This came after much discussion among authors = and > > > > > guidance from the working group. Reasons include: > > > > > > > > > > 1) if the tunnel fragments, fragments of the same packet > > > > > may go to different anycast-addressed routers. > > > > > > > > > > 2) with anycast, there is no opportunity for default > > > > > router selection (when there are multiple) > > > > > > > > > > 3) with anycast, there is no opportunity for traffic > > > > > engineering > > > > > > > > > > 4) with anycast, IPv6 neighbor discovery over the > > > > > tunnel may yield unpredictable results > > > > > > > > When I look at the 6rd draft, I don't really see why the > > > relay needs > > > > to be anycast - as far as I can see it could be genuinely = unicast > > > > (since there is no semantic difference for the CPE or the > > > relay; it's > > > > only anycast if the ISP sets up its IGP to make it anycast). > > > > So the real question is how the CPE knows the 6rd relay > > > address, which > > > > is also a question for RFC3056. There are of course many = possible > > > > answers to that, e.g. a DHCP(v4) option. > > > > > > ISATAP and VET already have answers for that ([RFC5214], > > > Sections 8.3.2 and 9). If 6rd wants to do the same thing, it > > > would just be re-inventing the wheel. > > > > > > > Personally I think a provisioned unicast address may be better, > > > > because of your points 1-4. > > > > > > Provisioned unicast addresses are already the subject matter > > > for ISATAP/VET Potential Router List (PRL) initialization. Is > > > a new spec needed? > > > > > > > > 5) with anycast, there is need for a manual provisioning > > > > > of IPv6 prefixes and IPv4 anycast address on the CPE > > > > > router. > > > > > > > > Which IPv6 prefixes? The CPE builds its IPv6 prefix from > > > its external > > > > IPv4 address, which it gets in the traditional way. > > > > > > The CPE needs to learn the provider's IPv6 prefix reserved > > > for 6rd purposes. Unless there is some form of automated > > > discovery (e.g., PIOs in RAs), the IPv6 prefix would need to > > > be manually provisioned. > > > > > > > > We next observe that the 6rd mechanism is rooted in a = customized > > > > > IPv6 prefix configuration that embeds an > > > > > IPv4 address. First, this would require that a quite large = IPv6 > > > > > prefix (e.g., a /24) be delegated to the ISP were its > > > customers to > > > > > obtain even a /56 as the largest possible prefix. Such a = prefix > > > > > would be used only sparsely, as only a small portion of the = IPv4 > > > > > address space may be available for assignment to CPE routers. > > > > > > > > Yes. Are we running out of /24s yet? > > > > > > Are we running out of /24s? I really don't know. Do I know > > > waste when I see it? I think so. > > > > > > > > Secondly, the only mode of operation afforded is > > > > > Provider-Aggregated, i.e., there is no provision for CPE use = of > > > > > Provider-Independent prefixes. > > > > > > > > Yes. I would expect this method to be used for SOHO > > > subscribers, not > > > > for larger customers who might use PI. > > > > > > But, do you know what the service model will look like > > > 5-10yrs down the line? (Maybe coexisting wireless broadband > > > and cable modem?) Do you even know what a SOHO network will > > > look like 5-10yrs down the line? > > > PI is as some point going to become attractive to enterprises > > > of any size - not necessarily just the big ones. > > > > > > > > I suspect you know where I'm going with this, but take > > > each of the > > > > > deficiencies named above and apply VET, and you will see that = VET > > > > > robustly covers all of these cases and more. Indeed, with > > > VET as the > > > > > phase 1 deployment, there would be no need for a phase 2, and = no > > > > > need for any IPv6 readdressing as VET uses unmodified > > > IPv6 prefixes > > > > > natively. > > > > > > > > > > The VET model asks only that CPE routers become VET enterprise > > > > > border routers, that CGNs become VET enterprise border > > > gateways, and > > > > > that the ISP name service be provisioned with resource > > > records for > > > > > border gateway discovery. In other words, the VET > > > deployment touches > > > > > exactly the same CPE/PE equipment that the 6rd approach > > > touches, and > > > > > VET asks only that the ISP network administrators add a > > > few resource > > > > > records to the DNS. If there are doubts as to how VET > > > satisfies each > > > > > of these use cases, I will be happy to explain in follow-up. > > > > > > > > I don't see this for SOHO subscribers using $50 CPEs, > > > frankly, but I > > > > could be wrong. > > > > > > Let's just have an awareness about this up front. Then, we > > > will have to explain to the customers years down the line why > > > we copped out and gave them a moped when they could have had a = 'VET. > > > > > > Fred > > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Brian > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In your section 3.6, we note a strong recommendation for a = tunnel > > > > > MTU of at least 1500 bytes and I concur with this = recommendation. > > > > > Were that not the case, customer devices would be constantly > > > > > inconvenienced with excessive ICMP PTB messages reporting > > > degenerate > > > > > MTUs for crossing the ISP network. We also note that SEAL > > > uniquely > > > > > and correctly provides the tunnel 1500 MTU assurance that > > > > > incremental cgn is seeking, and moreover note that larger MTUs > > > > > (e.g., 9K) are robustly and naturally discovered when customer > > > > > devices request them. Please see also RANGER Scenarios > > > (RANGERS) for > > > > > additional insight into the application of VET and SEAL > > > into the ISP > > > > > network problem space: > > > > > > > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-russert-rangers > > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-autoconf-dhcp > > > > > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-seal > > > > > > > > > > Fred > > > > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: Sheng Jiang [mailto:shengjiang@huawei.com] > > > > >> Sent: Wednesday, May 13, 2009 5:44 PM > > > > >> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org > > > > >> Cc: guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > > > >> Subject: FW:New Version Notification for > > > > > draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > > > >> Dear all, > > > > >> > > > > >> A revised version of draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn has = been > > > > > submitted to > > > > >> v6ops WG. It had been represented by Brian Carpenter in v6ops > > > > >> meeting > > > > > in > > > > >> IETF 74 as draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 and received = positive > > > > > comments > > > > >> also modification comments. We have integrated these > > > comments into > > > > > this > > > > >> version. > > > > >> > > > > >> Please review and comments on it. Many thanks. > > > > >> > > > > >> Best regards, > > > > >> > > > > >> Sheng > > > > >> > > > > >>> Filename: draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > > > > >>> Version: 00 > > > > >>> Staging URL: > > > > >>> > > > http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn-00.txt > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Title: An Incremental Carrier-Grade NAT > > > > >>> (CGN) for IPv6 Transition > > > > >>> Creation_date: 2009-05-08 > > > > >>> WG ID: Indvidual Submission > > > > >>> Number_of_pages: 11 > > > > >>> Abstract: > > > > >>> Global IPv6 deployment was slower than originally > > > expected in the > > > > >>> last ten years. As IPv4 address exhaustion gets closer, the > > > > >>> IPv4/IPv6 transition issues become more critical and > > > complicated. > > > > >>> Host-based transition mechanisms are not able to meet the > > > > >>> requirements while most end users are not sufficiently > > > expert to > > > > >>> configure or maintain these transition mechanisms. > > > Carrier Grade > > > > >>> NAT with integrated transition mechanisms can simplify the > > > > >>> operation of end users during the > > > > >>> IPv4/IPv6 migration or coexistence period. This > > > document proposes > > > > >>> an incremental Carrier-Grade NAT (CGN) solution for > > > > >>> IPv6 transition. > > > > >>> It can provide IPv6 access services for IPv6-enabled > > > end hosts and > > > > >>> IPv4 access services for IPv4 end hosts while remaining most = of > > > > >>> legacy IPv4 ISP networks unchanged. It is suitable for > > > the initial > > > > >>> stage of IPv4/IPv6 migration. Unlike CGN alone, it also > > > supports > > > > >>> and encourages transition towards dual-stack or IPv6-only = ISP > > > > >>> networks. > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Submitter: Sheng Jiang (shengjiang@huawei.com) > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Author(s): > > > > >>> Sheng Jiang, shengjiang@huawei.com Dayong Guo, > > > guoseu@huawei.com > > > > >>> Brian Carpenter, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >>> Comment: > > > > >>> Replacement for draft-jiang-incremental-cgn-00 > > > > >>> > > > > >>> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >=20 From ohra.twati@airmalta.com.mt Fri May 15 15:43:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0782A3A6F9E for ; Fri, 15 May 2009 15:43:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -29.933 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-29.933 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yhb0NG+4nFBJ for ; Fri, 15 May 2009 15:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aec.org.sy (unknown [189.139.156.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C3DF53A67A3 for ; Fri, 15 May 2009 15:43:25 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 15:43:25 -0700 (PDT)

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From kilgoregmyznljmpvqg@abbeysys.demon.co.uk Sat May 16 04:36:53 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 210473A6A4E for ; Sat, 16 May 2009 04:36:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -21.543 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-21.543 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aBwm92x-uoSx for ; Sat, 16 May 2009 04:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alicepro.fr (unknown [122.170.21.144]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A43D93A6B24 for ; Sat, 16 May 2009 04:36:49 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Sat, 16 May 2009 04:36:49 -0700 (PDT)

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2008 Rodale Inc., all rights reserved.
Customer Service Department, 33 East Minor Street, Emmaus, PA 18098
From darcywn@herner.com Sun May 17 03:15:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DFFC3A6B18; Sun, 17 May 2009 03:15:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -18.612 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-18.612 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, J_CHICKENPOX_33=0.6, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_SPEC_REPLICA_OBFU=1.812, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5A=1.062, SARE_SUB_ENC_KOI8R=0.67, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gLpQgu0zwxeg; Sun, 17 May 2009 03:15:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 81-90dp.cvx-1.lbb-1.door.net (81-90dp.cvx-1.lbb-1.door.net [64.207.81.90]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3FFAB3A6822; Sun, 17 May 2009 03:15:21 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 05:16:34 -0600 From: vrrp-web-archive@ietf.org Subject: =?koi8-r?B?THV4dXJ5IGhhbmRiYWdzoCB0aGF0IGFyZSBhZmZvcmRhYmxl?= To: Message-ID: <000d01c9d6d8$8e69ace0$6400a8c0@darcywn> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal The time is NOW to get YOUR rep1ica watches that are famous around the world. 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Visit us: http://mewaqimid.cn/ Best Regards Elvira Sargent www.mewaqimid.cn From neverett@pirnie.com Sun May 17 08:45:17 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9EE428C196; Sun, 17 May 2009 08:45:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -29.862 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-29.862 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-26.641, BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_SPEC_ROLEX_NOV5F=0.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hEgRGxAmKyXR; Sun, 17 May 2009 08:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aow188.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl (aow188.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl [83.26.130.188]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F60528C1CE; Sun, 17 May 2009 08:45:07 -0700 (PDT) To: "Lenora Morrison" Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 11:46:39 -0500 Subject: Affordable brand name watches Message-ID: From: "Lavonne Velasquez" Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hello Terrance If you've waited to get your IWC watch, this is the right time to go for it. http://www.jewlery-top.com/ Take advantage of our spring specials and get yourself IWC watch that you've always wanted! http://www.jewlery-top.com/ Our IWC have Weights/feels and looks exactly same as original. Sincerely, Mr Lang From liliana.pintilii@amado.ro Sun May 17 09:09:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3390D3A6EA2 for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 09:09:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -84.14 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-84.14 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c3uNA46k-5ec for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 09:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alston.com (unknown [189.110.139.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5D7C33A6902 for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 09:09:14 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Secret Shopper [$950/week] From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090517160918.5D7C33A6902@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 09:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: Sterling@wa-surveys.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From mmcallen@aaronfrancis.com Sun May 17 09:36:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F2D93A6A42 for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 09:36:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.477 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.477 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2CX6xgAp08mg for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 09:36:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1Cust71.tnt8.fft4.deu.da.uu.net (1Cust71.tnt8.fft4.deu.da.uu.net [149.225.98.71]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 82F293A6EBB for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 09:36:31 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 09:36:31 -0700 (PDT)

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2008 Rodale Inc., all rights reserved.
Customer Service Department, 33 East Minor Street, Emmaus, PA 18098
From canaanojil@galerienbangkok.com Sun May 17 15:17:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79AD43A6BFD for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 15:17:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -48.565 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-48.565 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, GB_ROLEX=5, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wuN+lrgY+emX for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 15:17:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 136.85.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es (165.84.219.87.dynamic.jazztel.es [87.219.84.165]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A902728C236 for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 15:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 00:18:02 +0100 From: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Dont buy expensive stuff To: Message-ID: <000d01c9d73d$582a16a0$6400a8c0@canaanojil> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Hello! About two weeks ago, I ordered two watches. A Rolex Daytona, and a Vacheron Constantin. I found your web site by chance, and decided to take a gamble and order these two watches. To my surprise and delight, my watches arrived in just under a week. The watches are amazing. Hipolito Siegel (UK) Thanks! http://incandescesprostrate.cn From boardinghousesh@fundycomposites.com Sun May 17 15:33:00 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72DED3A6878 for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 15:33:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -20.908 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-20.908 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_VERIZON_P=2.144, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_ROLEX=5, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL=1.495, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xo62rhenCuS2 for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 15:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool-71-169-120-148.altnpa.east.verizon.net (pool-71-169-120-148.altnpa.east.verizon.net [71.169.120.148]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 733233A682A for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 15:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 18:33:19 -0500 From: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Save on rep stuff To: Message-ID: <000d01c9d73f$7abae530$6400a8c0@boardinghousesh> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Hello! About two weeks ago, I ordered two watches. A Rolex Daytona, and a Vacheron Constantin. I found your web site by chance, and decided to take a gamble and order these two watches. To my surprise and delight, my watches arrived in just under a week. The watches are amazing. Amos Rose (Norway) Thanks! http://incandescesprostrate.cn From keooudoneleben@advcom.it Sun May 17 16:01:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C26B73A6F3D for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 16:01:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -82.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DNS_FROM_RFC_BOGUSMX=1.482, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NFaPnw2Dzmrr for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 16:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ahsys.org (unknown [186.58.4.32]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EB6063A6821 for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 16:00:44 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery Secret Shopper [$700/week] From: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090517230049.EB6063A6821@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 16:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: Zachery@wa-surveys.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun May 17 18:28:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9F4428C1A6 for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 18:28:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.071 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.071 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.023, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CRD2it3fIMmF for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 18:28:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7BC228C168 for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 18:28:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M5rZQ-000JV6-0Z for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 18 May 2009 01:23:12 +0000 Received: from [163.117.176.133] (helo=smtp03.uc3m.es) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M5rZD-000JTx-Gx for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 18 May 2009 01:23:05 +0000 Received: from r190-135-19-246.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy (r190-135-19-246.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy [190.135.19.246]) by smtp03.uc3m.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F9C7F2AB0; Mon, 18 May 2009 03:22:50 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A10B866.4020401@it.uc3m.es> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 03:22:46 +0200 From: marcelo bagnulo braun User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: 'IPv6 Operations' CC: Hesham Soliman , "Tsirtsis, George" Subject: question about IPv6 Flow label Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.3116-5.6.0.1016-16648.003 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, In the MEXT WG we are discussing about using the Flow Label as a flow descriptor and we were wondering how widely implemented is RFC3697. In particular, how many of the current OSes actually do: To enable Flow Label based classification, source nodes SHOULD assign each unrelated transport connection and application data stream to a new flow. Thanks, marcelo From nati4@012.net.il Sun May 17 18:55:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A911228C1B9 for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 18:55:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -78.205 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-78.205 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_VERIZON_P=2.144, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL=1.495, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cP4svqCfPCDo for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 18:55:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool-98-119-80-25.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net (pool-98-119-80-25.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net [98.119.80.25]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1A0143A6D44 for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 18:55:13 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery/Secret Shopper [$750/week] From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090518015515.1A0143A6D44@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 17 May 2009 18:55:13 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: Jose@wa-surveys.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun May 17 23:33:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84D343A6FC8 for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 23:33:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.832 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.832 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.468, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iXOh0mQBhLgB for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 23:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A75733A6C5C for ; Sun, 17 May 2009 23:33:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M5wKj-000JBr-0Z for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 18 May 2009 06:28:21 +0000 Received: from [2001:41d0:1:a0d6::401:1983] (helo=yop.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M5wKV-000JA6-UG for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 18 May 2009 06:28:14 +0000 Received: by yop.chewa.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id CDCE6FB0; Mon, 18 May 2009 08:28:04 +0200 (CEST) To: marcelo bagnulo braun Subject: Re: question about IPv6 Flow label MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 08:28:04 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Cc: IPv6 Operations Organization: Remlab.net In-Reply-To: <4A10B866.4020401@it.uc3m.es> References: <4A10B866.4020401@it.uc3m.es> Message-ID: <9c03df334dc9d69b3cf41678226833d2@chewa.net> X-Sender: remi@remlab.net User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, 18 May 2009 03:22:46 +0200, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote: > In the MEXT WG we are discussing about using the Flow Label as a flow > descriptor and we were wondering how widely implemented is RFC3697. In > particular, how many of the current OSes actually do: > > To enable Flow Label based classification, source nodes SHOULD assign > each unrelated transport connection and application data stream to a > new flow. Linux has had an API for a while. Dunno about other systems. -- Rémi Denis-Courmont From ooi.cheankeong@akerkvaerner.com Mon May 18 00:10:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 786FA28C247 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 00:10:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -79.392 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-79.392 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, HELO_EQ_NE_JP=1.244, HOST_EQ_JP=1.265, HOST_EQ_NE_JP=2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pMeDyrAJUjc2 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 00:10:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p1160-ipbf308obiyama.kumamoto.ocn.ne.jp (p1160-ipbf308obiyama.kumamoto.ocn.ne.jp [122.31.14.160]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 82E0328C1A1 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 00:10:20 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Crisis is Dead! Job for you! From: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090518071020.82E0328C1A1@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 00:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: Christoper@wa-surveys.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From espousinghlj19@getjackflash.com Mon May 18 01:54:45 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AFEB28C25E for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 01:54:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -22.767 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-22.767 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, STOX_REPLY_TYPE=0.001, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W2Ay2QRlbr4W for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 01:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 187-25-133-163.3g.claro.net.br (187-25-133-163.3g.claro.net.br [187.25.133.163]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8121F28C25C for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 01:54:36 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 05:54:05 -0300 From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Erase the memories of the defeat To: Message-ID: <000d01c9d796$32e87090$6400a8c0@espousinghlj19> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1; reply-type=original Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-priority: Normal Always wanted to get that perfect gift? Always had that eye on that expensive, stunning watch? Now at Diamond Replicas, you can fulfill all your dreams of having diamonds and expensive watches, and bags, all for a tiny fraction of the cost. With more than 50 world renown brands, you are one click away from dressing like a million dollars! Thank to http://mansionsdiffidently.cn Best Regards Patricia Britt PT From kieb@ampli.com.pl Mon May 18 02:43:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 969E43A6CE5 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 02:43:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -89.538 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-89.538 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FO+X2JcBIPN9 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 02:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ahgroupco.com (unknown [88.228.209.241]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8AE653A6B2B for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 02:43:15 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery Secret Shopper [$700/week] From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090518094316.8AE653A6B2B@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 02:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: Courtney@wa-surveys.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From lyonsa@ajpark.com Mon May 18 02:49:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2177928C28C for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 02:49:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -83.117 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.117 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MQ2VYCYrFJuo for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 02:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adsl83-171.kln.forthnet.gr (adsl83-171.kln.forthnet.gr [77.49.50.171]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B5B2A28C27F for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 02:49:22 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery/Secret Shopper [$750/week] From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090518094922.B5B2A28C27F@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 02:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: Blair@wa-surveys.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon May 18 03:23:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 169063A6945 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 03:23:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oHjki64adCfQ for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 03:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7857C3A68E0 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 03:23:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M5zwg-000H5E-ID for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 18 May 2009 10:19:46 +0000 Received: from [2001:770:10:300::86e2:510b] (helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M5zwK-000H1z-NR for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 18 May 2009 10:19:38 +0000 Received: from walton.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.10] helo=walton.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 18 May 2009 11:19:21 +0100 (BST) Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 11:19:17 +0100 From: David Malone To: marcelo bagnulo braun Cc: 'IPv6 Operations' , Hesham Soliman , "Tsirtsis, George" Subject: Re: question about IPv6 Flow label Message-ID: <20090518101917.GA87713@walton.maths.tcd.ie> References: <4A10B866.4020401@it.uc3m.es> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4A10B866.4020401@it.uc3m.es> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.6i Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 03:22:46AM +0200, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote: > In the MEXT WG we are discussing about using the Flow Label as a flow > descriptor and we were wondering how widely implemented is RFC3697. In > particular, how many of the current OSes actually do: I had a look at this a few years ago with Orla McGann, because we wanted to know if the flow label could be used by a stateful firewall: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dwmalone/p/ec2nd05.pdf It seemed that there were some problems where the flow label was not set consistently. We fixed this up in FreeBSD, so I can tell you what happens there. For TCP the flow label is usually set randomly, either using a hash of the connection details (+ a secret) or is set randomly using a PRNG. At the moment there isn't check to make sure the flow label is not shared between two flows. For UDP, I think the flow label will default to zero. David. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon May 18 03:53:08 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E0F228C250 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 03:53:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.278 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.278 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.841, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rh54Nn3jHga4 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 03:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D8BF3A6C74 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 03:53:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M60RW-000K4C-0B for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 18 May 2009 10:51:38 +0000 Received: from [202.124.241.204] (helo=smtp-1.servers.netregistry.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M60RJ-000K2I-28 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 18 May 2009 10:51:31 +0000 Received: from [60.224.64.196] (helo=[192.168.0.187]) by smtp-1.servers.netregistry.net protocol: esmtpa (Exim 4.63 #1 (Debian)) id 1M60Qy-00028p-Pq; Mon, 18 May 2009 20:51:04 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 20:50:51 +1000 Subject: Re: question about IPv6 Flow label From: Hesham Soliman To: David Malone , marcelo bagnulo braun CC: 'IPv6 Operations' , "Tsirtsis, George" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: question about IPv6 Flow label Thread-Index: AcnXpoJ0VULIR+AqU0KVNgJm90No5g== In-Reply-To: <20090518101917.GA87713@walton.maths.tcd.ie> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 18/05/09 8:19 PM, "David Malone" wrote: > On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 03:22:46AM +0200, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote: >> In the MEXT WG we are discussing about using the Flow Label as a flow >> descriptor and we were wondering how widely implemented is RFC3697. In >> particular, how many of the current OSes actually do: > > I had a look at this a few years ago with Orla McGann, because we > wanted to know if the flow label could be used by a stateful firewall: > > http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dwmalone/p/ec2nd05.pdf > > It seemed that there were some problems where the flow label was > not set consistently. We fixed this up in FreeBSD, so I can tell > you what happens there. For TCP the flow label is usually set > randomly, either using a hash of the connection details (+ a secret) > or is set randomly using a PRNG. At the moment there isn't check > to make sure the flow label is not shared between two flows. > > For UDP, I think the flow label will default to zero. => Do you know why the same was not done for UDP? Hesham > > David. > From delignat@online.fr Mon May 18 05:03:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E3A528C2B1; Mon, 18 May 2009 05:03:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -27.03 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-27.03 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-10.439, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, FRT_ROLEX=3.878, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wG-WitSfLv6V; Mon, 18 May 2009 05:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h94-75-37-38.ufamts.ru (h94-75-37-38.ufamts.ru [94.75.37.38]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5F9103A702B; Mon, 18 May 2009 05:03:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 125.63.176.184 by 184.52.254.160; Mon, 18 May 2009 13:58:43 +0100 Message-ID: To: "Dianna Love" From: "Nolan Walker" Subject: Trim line or sport watch? You choose Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 08:04:43 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hello Ina How about buying yourself a two Ro lex watches the same day? It's not impossible, mostly when you can get them for a couple hundred bucks http://www.reppzlis.com/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon May 18 05:49:13 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 670E03A6358 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 05:49:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.926 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.926 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.374, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kg9amfBNJxls for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 05:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98E2B28C2EF for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 05:49:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M62Ea-000C6s-Lq for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 18 May 2009 12:46:24 +0000 Received: from [2001:41d0:1:a0d6::401:1983] (helo=yop.chewa.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M62EK-000C1n-S8 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 18 May 2009 12:46:16 +0000 Received: by yop.chewa.net (Postfix, from userid 33) id B4F02FAE; Mon, 18 May 2009 14:46:06 +0200 (CEST) To: Hesham Soliman Subject: Re: question about IPv6 Flow label MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:46:06 +0200 From: =?UTF-8?Q?R=C3=A9mi_Denis-Courmont?= Cc: David Malone , marcelo bagnulo braun , IPv6 Operations , "Tsirtsis, George" Organization: Remlab.net In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: X-Sender: remi@remlab.net User-Agent: RoundCube Webmail/0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Mon, 18 May 2009 20:50:51 +1000, Hesham Soliman wrote: >> For UDP, I think the flow label will default to zero. > > => Do you know why the same was not done for UDP? Flow is an application-layer-dependent notion. The UDP layer does not know about it, and should hence not try to guess either. -- Rémi Denis-Courmont From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon May 18 06:21:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52613A69CF for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 06:21:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.172, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1-lj9BoGFc7U for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 06:21:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D07E3A6D9F for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 06:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M62l8-000IgL-SI for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 18 May 2009 13:20:02 +0000 Received: from [163.117.176.131] (helo=smtp01.uc3m.es) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M62kw-000IdM-Pi for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 18 May 2009 13:19:56 +0000 Received: from r190-135-53-236.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy (r190-135-53-236.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy [190.135.53.236]) by smtp01.uc3m.es (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6D4EBA607F; Mon, 18 May 2009 15:19:44 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A11606F.60001@it.uc3m.es> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 15:19:43 +0200 From: marcelo bagnulo braun User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVuaXMtQ291cm1vbnQ=?= CC: Hesham Soliman , David Malone , IPv6 Operations , "Tsirtsis, George" Subject: Re: question about IPv6 Flow label References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-TM-AS-Product-Ver: IMSS-7.0.0.3116-5.6.0.1016-16648.007 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Rémi Denis-Courmont escribió: > On Mon, 18 May 2009 20:50:51 +1000, Hesham Soliman > wrote: > >>> For UDP, I think the flow label will default to zero. >>> >> => Do you know why the same was not done for UDP? >> > > Flow is an application-layer-dependent notion. The UDP layer does not know > about it, and should hence not try to guess either. > mmm, what about setting a non zero flow label per UDP connected socket? For non connected sockets, i agree with you, it should be up to the application to define it through the API and the default should be zero regards, marcelo From lassifiedads@amilink.com Mon May 18 06:54:01 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DDA028C29D for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 06:54:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -85.776 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.776 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 62WW-MHdq4Sc for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 06:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agsworld.com.au (unknown [189.71.171.230]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id F154F28C2DF for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 06:53:52 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery Shopper [$800/week] From: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090518135354.F154F28C2DF@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 06:53:52 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: Forest@wa-surveys.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon May 18 10:17:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12A043A6912 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 10:17:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.147 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.147 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8=0.152] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t38ZvVaD7umj for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 10:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 283653A6DB6 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 10:17:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M66OO-0003iU-Nj for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 18 May 2009 17:12:48 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::81] (helo=nagasaki.bogus.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M66OA-0003gn-J1 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 18 May 2009 17:12:40 +0000 Received: from [192.168.122.143] ([212.150.94.6]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n4IHBC4Z061881 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 18 May 2009 17:11:47 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <4A1196A3.5040305@bogus.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 10:10:59 -0700 From: Joel Jaeggli User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (X11/20090409) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ZhangDong CC: David Malone , marcelo bagnulo braun , "'IPv6 Operations'" , Hesham Soliman , "Tsirtsis, George" Subject: Re: =?UTF-8?B?5Zue5aSNOiBSZTogcXVlc3Rpb24gYWJvdXQgSVB2NiBGbG93IGw=?= =?UTF-8?B?YWJlbA==?= References: <4A10B866.4020401@it.uc3m.es> <20090518101917.GA87713@walton.maths.tcd.ie> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV 0.94.2/9366/Mon May 18 06:02:23 2009 on nagasaki.bogus.com X-Virus-Status: Clean Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Even, or perhaps especially, the authors of 3697 would disagree with you as to the security value you can associate with flow labels. joel ZhangDong wrote: > Hi, > > I think that the flow label is able to be a good use for firewall. The firewall does not need to know the ports to identify a flow. It makes sense for flows encrypted, such as IPsec. > > Thanks. > > Dong Zhang > Huaweisymantec Technologies Co., Ltd > > > ----- 原始邮件 ----- > å‘件人: David Malone > 日期: 2009å¹´ 5月 18æ—¥, 星期一, 下åˆ6:54 > 主题: Re: question about IPv6 Flow label > 收件人: marcelo bagnulo braun > 抄é€: 'IPv6 Operations' , Hesham Soliman , "Tsirtsis, George" > > >> On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 03:22:46AM +0200, marcelo bagnulo braun wrote: >> > In the MEXT WG we are discussing about using the Flow Label as a >> flow >> > descriptor and we were wondering how widely implemented is RFC3697. >> In >> > particular, how many of the current OSes actually do: >> >> I had a look at this a few years ago with Orla McGann, because we >> wanted to know if the flow label could be used by a stateful firewall: >> >> http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dwmalone/p/ec2nd05.pdf >> >> It seemed that there were some problems where the flow label was >> not set consistently. We fixed this up in FreeBSD, so I can tell >> you what happens there. For TCP the flow label is usually set >> randomly, either using a hash of the connection details (+ a secret) >> or is set randomly using a PRNG. At the moment there isn't check >> to make sure the flow label is not shared between two flows. >> >> For UDP, I think the flow label will default to zero. >> >> David. >> >> > From krisseifert@adventinc.com Mon May 18 10:40:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8605428C227 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 10:40:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -82.973 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.973 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pjvlgVwCjsku for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 10:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp-58-9-145-45.revip2.asianet.co.th (ppp-58-9-145-45.revip2.asianet.co.th [58.9.145.45]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BB9A73A6C55 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 10:40:31 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery Shopper [$800/week] From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090518174031.BB9A73A6C55@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 10:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: Suzette@wa-surveys.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon May 18 12:03:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ED2FB28C322 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 12:03:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.273, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SARE_SUB_ENC_UTF8x2=0.246, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XEQcmIK13qp1 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 12:03:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78AD328C33B for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 12:01:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M681N-000Hii-7l for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 18 May 2009 18:57:09 +0000 Received: from [2001:770:10:300::86e2:510b] (helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6819-000Hh3-IX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 18 May 2009 18:57:02 +0000 Received: from walton.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.10] helo=walton.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 18 May 2009 19:56:53 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=maths.tcd.ie) by walton.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 18 May 2009 19:56:48 +0100 (BST) To: Joel Jaeggli cc: ZhangDong , marcelo bagnulo braun , 'IPv6 Operations' , Hesham Soliman MMDF-Warning: Parse error processing 'cc' line at walton.maths.tcd.ie The following addresses could not be parsed: \"Tsirtsis "George\" " Subject: Re: =?UTF-8?B?5Zue5aSNOiBSZTogcXVlc3Rpb24gYWJvdXQgSVB2NiBGbG93IGw=?= =?UTF-8?B?YWJlbA==?= In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 18 May 2009 10:10:59 PDT." <4A1196A3.5040305@bogus.com> X-Request-Do: Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 19:56:48 +0100 From: David Malone Message-ID: <200905181956.aa95572@walton.maths.tcd.ie> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > Even, or perhaps especially, the authors of 3697 would disagree with you > as to the security value you can associate with flow labels. Note that it depends how you use it. Our idea was not to use it as a hash key (which would certainly be unwise), but as an extra piece of information that a blind attacker would have to guess to insert packets into a connection. It looked like it might work, however the big stumbling block was that not all flows were actually sending with a consistent flow label. David. From maja-sl@alice-dsl.net Mon May 18 12:04:55 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5B9B3A6FD5 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 12:04:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.275 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.275 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dtrAPbI00ujy for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 12:04:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ama-assn.org (unknown [189.82.105.246]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0D6DC28C101 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 12:04:50 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 12:04:50 -0700 (PDT)

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From myjhe7@amc.ca Mon May 18 13:13:40 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D098A3A6C41 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 13:13:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -78.336 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-78.336 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RBPONjw9XGFm for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 13:13:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cpc2-nott7-0-0-cust192.nott.cable.ntl.com (cpc2-nott7-0-0-cust192.nott.cable.ntl.com [86.0.172.193]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5FCD83A6A0C for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 13:13:37 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery/Shopper [$600/week] From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090518201338.5FCD83A6A0C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 13:13:37 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: Keven@wa-surveys.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From mluzuriaga@amedex.com Mon May 18 14:39:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 936393A6D2E for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 14:39:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -82.973 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.973 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mxf0ibwZKVq0 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 14:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c-98-244-86-68.hsd1.va.comcast.net (c-98-244-86-68.hsd1.va.comcast.net [98.244.86.68]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 65BF13A6AB8 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 14:39:17 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery/Shopper [$800/week] From: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090518213917.65BF13A6AB8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: Jamal@wa-surveys.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From merck.condensy@advancedmp.com Mon May 18 14:52:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 76E2A3A6E69 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 14:52:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -83.64 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-83.64 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a6Xh7afn7aFr for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 14:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from advantageh.com (unknown [189.6.159.35]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0FE563A6E02 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 14:52:17 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Mystery/Shopper [$600/week] From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090518215219.0FE563A6E02@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:52:17 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: Emory@wa-surveys.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From michael1@adam.com Mon May 18 15:44:20 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BC853A6A35 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 15:44:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -73.478 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-73.478 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_WEOFFER=0.3, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z1FjePD+M7tH for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 15:44:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 200-71-175-15.genericrev.telcel.net.ve (200-71-175-18.genericrev.telcel.net.ve [200.71.175.18]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 104223A681C for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 15:44:06 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Crisis is Dead! Job for you! From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090518224409.104223A681C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 15:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Thank you for your interest in the Mystery Shopper position.
Our company conducts surveys and evaluates other companies in order to help them achieve their performance goals.
We offer an integrated suite of business solutions that enables corporations to achieve tangible results in the marketplace.

We get hired by other companies and act like customers to find out how they are handling their services in relation to their customers.
Mystery Shopping is the most accurate and reliable tool a business can use to gather information regarding their actual customer service performance at the moment of truth.
This moment of truth is not when the staff is on their best behavior because the boss is around - it is when they interact with customers during their normal daily routines.

This is where you, the Mystery Shopper, come in.
You pose as an ordinary customer and provide feedback of both factual observations (ex...the floor was free of debris)
and your own opinions (ex...I felt that the temperature in the establishment was too cold).

Mystery Shoppers must remain anonymous. You must act as a regular customer and be careful not to do anything that would reveal you as a shopper.
An inexperienced shopper could tip off the staff to his/her identity by asking for the manager's name for no clear or appropriate reason.
If you are going to be bringing someone with you on the shop, make sure you educate them about the process as well.
Beware that even whispers can be overheard by employees. If anyone notices you are a shopper,
you can bet that word will quickly spread around the establishment and you will get some of the best customer service in town.

No company can afford to have a gap between the promise of quality and its actual delivery, that's why leading corporations look to us,
the nation's premiere mystery shopping and customer experience measurement company.

In order for a business to effectively compete in today's economy, they must be prepared to meet the challenge of increasing sales by:
* Retaining existing customers
* Acquiring new customers
* Creating word-of-mouth advocacy
* Improving customer loyalty

Once we have a contract to do so, you would be directed to the company or outlet, and you would be given
the funds you need to do the job(either purchase merchandise or require services), after which you would write a detailed report of your experience.

Examples of details you would forward to us are:
1) How long does it take to get served.
2) Politeness of the attendant.
3) Customer service professionalism.
4) Sometimes you might be required to upset the attendant, to see how they deal with difficult clients.

Then we turn the information over to the company executives and they will carry out their own duties in improving their services.
Most companies employ our assistance when people complain about their services, or when they feel there is a need for them to improve upon their customer service.
Our company partners with you to implement proven mystery shop auditing and surveying strategies that provide critical information about customer experiences.

You will be paid a commission of $100 for every duty you carry out, and bonus on your transportation allowance.
Your task will be to evaluate and comment on customer service in a wide variety of restaurants, retail stores, casinos,
shopping malls, banks and hotels in your area.

Qualities of a good Mystery Shopper:
* Is 21 years of age or older
* Loves to go shopping
* Is fair and objective
* Is ON TIME
* Is very observant and able to focus on details
* Is fairly intelligent
* Has patience
* Is detail oriented
* Is practical
* Types well
* Is trustworthy
* Explains well in writing
* Is discreet
* Loves to learn
* Handles deadlines
* Has full internet access (at home or at work)

Mystery Shopping is fun and exciting but also must be approached very seriously and is definitely not for everyone.

If you are interested in applying for consideration as a Mystery Shopper do send in your information: Jennifer@wa-surveys.com
Full Name:
Address:
City:
State:
Zip Code:
Phone Number:
Age:
Occupation:

As soon as we receive your information we will add you to our database and we will look for locations in your area that needs to be evaluated.

Thank you,
Michael McDowell
WA Surveys
410 Roosevelt Way NE
Seattle, WA 98105
From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon May 18 19:07:02 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D44E3A6DF4 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 19:07:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.465 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.598, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jB+SQsSfzmM7 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 19:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE7463A6DFE for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 19:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6Edf-0006Xj-9P for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 19 May 2009 02:01:07 +0000 Received: from [202.124.241.204] (helo=smtp-2.servers.netregistry.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6EdS-0006Wx-I5; Tue, 19 May 2009 02:01:00 +0000 Received: from [115.130.38.33] by smtp-2.servers.netregistry.net protocol: esmtpa (Exim 4.63 #1 (Debian)) id 1M6EdN-000065-MB; Tue, 19 May 2009 12:00:51 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 12:00:31 +1000 Subject: Re: =?Big5?B?pl7OYA==?=: Re: question about IPv6 Flow label From: Hesham Soliman To: David Malone , Joel Jaeggli CC: ZhangDong , marcelo bagnulo braun , 'IPv6 Operations' Message-ID: Thread-Topic: =?Big5?B?pl7OYA==?=: Re: question about IPv6 Flow label Thread-Index: AcnYJZarEJvNikjXlEmewTJZg32W6g== In-Reply-To: <200905181956.aa95572@walton.maths.tcd.ie> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 19/05/09 4:56 AM, "David Malone" wrote: >> Even, or perhaps especially, the authors of 3697 would disagree with you >> as to the security value you can associate with flow labels. > > Note that it depends how you use it. Our idea was not to use it as > a hash key (which would certainly be unwise), but as an extra piece > of information that a blind attacker would have to guess to insert > packets into a connection. It looked like it might work, however > the big stumbling block was that not all flows were actually sending > with a consistent flow label. => But even if they are sending a consistent flow label, to do what you want, you need to ensure that the recepient can verify the flow label, which is not possible unless both sender and receiver agree through negotiation or in a predetermined manner on how to generate it. Of course if it is a predetermined manner, then you can't use a RNG in the process and therefore a blind attacker can generate a valid packet anyway unless the flow label changes with each packet, right? Hesham > > David. > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon May 18 20:10:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD6ED3A68C2 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 20:10:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.655 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.655 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id APoxhZBsl7BY for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 20:10:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF97328C21A for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 20:10:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6Ff0-000BPL-BY for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 19 May 2009 03:06:34 +0000 Received: from [218.17.155.15] (helo=mta2.huaweisymantec.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6Fel-000BN2-GV for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 19 May 2009 03:06:27 +0000 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Received: from hstml01-in.huaweisymantec.com ([172.26.3.42]) by hstga02-in.huaweisymantec.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-5.02 (built Oct 12 2007; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0KJV00MU8FAEHM50@hstga02-in.huaweisymantec.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 19 May 2009 11:06:15 +0800 (CST) Received: from huaweisymantec.com ([127.0.0.1]) by hstml01-in.huaweisymantec.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 6.3-5.02 (built Oct 12 2007; 32bit)) with ESMTP id <0KJV0052YFAEGN00@hstml01-in.huaweisymantec.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 19 May 2009 11:06:14 +0800 (CST) Received: from [10.27.154.181] by hstml01-in.huaweisymantec.com (mshttpd); Tue, 19 May 2009 11:06:14 +0800 From: ZhangDong To: Hesham Soliman Cc: David Malone , Joel Jaeggli , marcelo bagnulo braun , 'IPv6 Operations' Message-id: Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:06:14 +0800 X-Mailer: Sun Java(tm) System Messenger Express 6.3-5.02 (built Oct 12 2007; 32bit) Content-language: zh-CN Subject: Re: Re: Re: Re: question about IPv6 Flow label X-Accept-Language: zh-CN In-reply-to: References: <200905181956.aa95572@walton.maths.tcd.ie> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > >> Even, or perhaps especially, the authors of 3697 would disagree > with you > >> as to the security value you can associate with flow labels. > > > > Note that it depends how you use it. Our idea was not to use it as > > a hash key (which would certainly be unwise), but as an extra piece > > of information that a blind attacker would have to guess to insert > > packets into a connection. It looked like it might work, however > > the big stumbling block was that not all flows were actually sending > > with a consistent flow label. > > => But even if they are sending a consistent flow label, to do what you > want, you need to ensure that the recepient can verify the flow > label, which > is not possible unless both sender and receiver agree through > negotiation or > in a predetermined manner on how to generate it. > Of course if it is a predetermined manner, then you can't use a RNG > in the > process and therefore a blind attacker can generate a valid packet anyway > unless the flow label changes with each packet, right? Hmm... So the flow label also needs security protection to some extent when it is uesd, right? Is there any document describe how the flow label is used by applications? Dong Zhang Huaweisymantec Technologies Co., Ltd From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon May 18 20:45:43 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26D983A6DB2 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 20:45:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.326 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.326 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.508, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zvOn6vf0sGUf for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 20:45:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3E4B3A6C58 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 20:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6GFd-000ERX-DH for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 19 May 2009 03:44:25 +0000 Received: from [202.124.241.204] (helo=smtp-2.servers.netregistry.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6GFQ-000EPd-Fl; Tue, 19 May 2009 03:44:18 +0000 Received: from [115.130.35.70] by smtp-2.servers.netregistry.net protocol: esmtpa (Exim 4.63 #1 (Debian)) id 1M6GFL-0004sH-2d; Tue, 19 May 2009 13:44:08 +1000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 13:43:51 +1000 Subject: Re: question about IPv6 Flow label From: Hesham Soliman To: ZhangDong CC: David Malone , Joel Jaeggli , marcelo bagnulo braun , 'IPv6 Operations' Message-ID: Thread-Topic: question about IPv6 Flow label Thread-Index: AcnYNAYo6pE2qAHTfUeKFVPcDmK0aw== In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 19/05/09 1:06 PM, "ZhangDong" wrote: > >>>> Even, or perhaps especially, the authors of 3697 would disagree >> with you >>>> as to the security value you can associate with flow labels. >>> >>> Note that it depends how you use it. Our idea was not to use it as >>> a hash key (which would certainly be unwise), but as an extra piece >>> of information that a blind attacker would have to guess to insert >>> packets into a connection. It looked like it might work, however >>> the big stumbling block was that not all flows were actually sending >>> with a consistent flow label. >> >> => But even if they are sending a consistent flow label, to do what you >> want, you need to ensure that the recepient can verify the flow >> label, which >> is not possible unless both sender and receiver agree through >> negotiation or >> in a predetermined manner on how to generate it. >> Of course if it is a predetermined manner, then you can't use a RNG >> in the >> process and therefore a blind attacker can generate a valid packet anyway >> unless the flow label changes with each packet, right? > > Hmm... So the flow label also needs security protection to some extent when it > is uesd, right? => No, I was asking a question about what David said. The flow label doesn't necessarily need security. Hesham > > Is there any document describe how the flow label is used by applications? > > Dong Zhang > Huaweisymantec Technologies Co., Ltd > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon May 18 22:54:19 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 029FC3A6CBB for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 22:54:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -100.713 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-100.713 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.614, BAYES_00=-2.599, CHARSET_FARAWAY_HEADER=3.2, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cpjXaua8tk38 for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 22:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 49ADD3A689F for ; Mon, 18 May 2009 22:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6IE2-000Owv-O5 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 19 May 2009 05:50:54 +0000 Received: from [2001:770:10:300::86e2:510b] (helo=salmon.maths.tcd.ie) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6IDf-000OuE-Jo for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 19 May 2009 05:50:39 +0000 Received: from walton.maths.tcd.ie ([134.226.81.10] helo=walton.maths.tcd.ie) by salmon.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 19 May 2009 06:50:29 +0100 (BST) Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1] helo=maths.tcd.ie) by walton.maths.tcd.ie with SMTP id ; 19 May 2009 06:50:25 +0100 (BST) To: Hesham Soliman cc: Joel Jaeggli , ZhangDong , marcelo bagnulo braun , 'IPv6 Operations' Subject: Re: =?Big5?B?pl7OYA==?=: Re: question about IPv6 Flow label In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 19 May 2009 12:00:31 +1000." X-Request-Do: Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 06:50:25 +0100 From: David Malone Message-ID: <200905190650.aa00570@walton.maths.tcd.ie> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > => But even if they are sending a consistent flow label, to do what you > want, you need to ensure that the recepient can verify the flow label, which > is not possible unless both sender and receiver agree through negotiation or > in a predetermined manner on how to generate it. No - the idea was that the receiver would learn it, in the same way it learns the TCP ISN or DNS query ID. David. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue May 19 02:22:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9FD33A6B1B for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 02:22:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.912 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.912 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.514, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id A8lHkgft4CLo for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 02:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 572AA3A6B13 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 02:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6LTU-000HZs-IF for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 19 May 2009 09:19:04 +0000 Received: from [212.27.42.1] (helo=smtp1-g21.free.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6LTH-000HZ6-69 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 19 May 2009 09:18:57 +0000 Received: from smtp1-g21.free.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C059401AA; Tue, 19 May 2009 11:18:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from RD-Mac.local (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by smtp1-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3491940169; Tue, 19 May 2009 11:18:39 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A12796B.6030609@free.fr> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:18:35 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Templin, Fred L" CC: Sheng Jiang , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com, "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn References: <20090508034237.ABE583A69FE@core3.amsl.com> <001d01c9d42d$1cf4c570$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F06D5B@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F06D5B@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Templin, Fred L - le (m/j/a) 5/14/09 5:17 PM: > Dear authors, > > The document is clean and concise, which is appreciated. > However, section 3.2 seems to be showing preference > toward a particular tunneling technology, and I'd like > to understand that better. As explained in the 6rd draft (soon to become an RFC), 6rd solves the major problem of 6to4: the lack of guarantee that paths exist between all IPv6 sites and all 6to4 sites, and that these paths have ISP controlled QoS. > To understand this, we must first observe that the 6rd > approach relies on anycast for CPE router accessing of > IPv6 routers within the IPv4 ISP network. The important point is that the 6rd-relay address MAY be anycast. If there is only one relay at this address, there is no difference with an anycast address. Reasons for permitting anycast are SCALABILITY and AVAILABILITY of the solution: - if available relays seem to be soon insufficient for the traffic, just add one more, at the same anycast address. While ISATAP is intra-site, 6rd relays, like those of 6to4 which also use an anycast address, have to support all the IPv6 traffic of an ISP that uses 6rd. - if a 6rd-relay fails, the traffic goes to another one. The idea of > anycast was entertained and abandoned by the ISATAP > team in the 2001/2002 timeframe when ISATAP was still > being developed in the ngtrans working group. This came > after much discussion among authors and guidance from > the working group. Reasons include: > > 1) if the tunnel fragments, fragments of the same packet > may go to different anycast-addressed routers. If the ISP supports an IPv4 MTU long enough for IPv6 packets of 1280 octets (as it should) and discards longer ones, no fragmentation is ever needed. This is common with 6to4, which uses anycast addressing for its relays. > 2) with anycast, there is no opportunity for default > router selection (when there are multiple) Yes. But what is the practical problem? > 3) with anycast, there is no opportunity for traffic > engineering Different source zones may be oriented toward different relays, or relay farms with internal load balancers. All the complexity of deciding which customer sites should receive which unicast addresses is avoided. > 4) with anycast, IPv6 neighbor discovery over the > tunnel may yield unpredictable results Neighbor discovery doesn't apply more over 6rd tunnels than it does on 6to4 tunnels. > 5) with anycast, there is need for a manual provisioning > of IPv6 prefixes and IPv4 anycast address on the CPE > router. As explained in the draft, Free deployed 6rd with their 6rd parameters included in their downloaded CPE software (IPv6 prefix and relay anycast address). For independently supplied CPEs , tools to convey these parameters have to be specified. As far as I know, Mark Townsley is working on a proposal for this. Regards, RD From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue May 19 02:30:21 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 371BE28C29D for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 02:30:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.746 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.746 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.663, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fOIuAPVDJCPb for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 02:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29D133A7090 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 02:30:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6LeN-000IeE-Pg for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 19 May 2009 09:30:19 +0000 Received: from [212.27.42.6] (helo=smtp6-g21.free.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6Le9-000Ici-Km for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 19 May 2009 09:30:12 +0000 Received: from smtp6-g21.free.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp6-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1563BE08067; Tue, 19 May 2009 11:29:57 +0200 (CEST) Received: from RD-Mac.local (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by smtp6-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96C11E080C7; Tue, 19 May 2009 11:29:54 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A127C0E.8090709@free.fr> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:29:50 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Sheng Jiang CC: "'Templin, Fred L'" , 'Brian E Carpenter' , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "'Fleischman, Eric'" , "'Russert, Steven W'" Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn References: <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> In-Reply-To: <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Sheng Jiang - le (m/j/a) 5/15/09 4:12 AM: > However, our draft does no intend to make judge of 6rd, or other tunnel > techonogies. We actually would like to list serveral suitable tunnel > techonogies with brief introductions in order to complete our puzzle. As we > ready state in the draft, "ISATAP or VET are also be considered." Actually, > one thing we can do for next version is to expand this section a little bit, > to include brief introductions for Auto GRE, ISATAP and VET. However, we > also think 6rd is suitable and do not want to rule it out. Yes. As far as I know, among ISATAP, VET, and 6rd, the latter is the only one to have been actually deployed on a large scale, offering native IPv6 to millions of customer sites. It deserves IMHO to be understood as such. More details in: http://rosie.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-58/presentations/uploads//presentations/Tuesday/Plenary%2011:00/Cassen-IPv6_at_Free.wWE6.pdf Best regards, RD From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue May 19 02:47:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5667328C305 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 02:47:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.893 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.893 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.495, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QFkpD43TS6oW for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 02:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2495628C362 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 02:46:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6LtW-000Kf8-7s for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 19 May 2009 09:45:58 +0000 Received: from [212.27.42.1] (helo=smtp1-g21.free.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6LtH-000KcV-J3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 19 May 2009 09:45:50 +0000 Received: from smtp1-g21.free.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 653C394015C; Tue, 19 May 2009 11:45:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: from RD-Mac.local (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by smtp1-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46070940112; Tue, 19 May 2009 11:45:15 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 11:45:04 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Templin, Fred L" CC: Sheng Jiang , Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Templin, Fred L - le (m/j/a) 5/15/09 9:36 PM: > With this said, I'd like to propose something toward Remi. > You will be wanting some way for CPE devices to discover > the ISP's 6rd-relays IPv6 prefix. This can be easily > accommodated by defining a new DHCPv6 option (the > "6rd Prefix Option"?) for which the sole purpose is > to convey a prefix and prefix length. There is indeed a need. Note that it should rather be a *DHCPv4* option, since it is needed before there is IPv6 connectivity. As mentioned in another email, and as far as I know, Mark Townsley is working on it. I believe it should be quickly agreed on, to expand applicability of a useful tool for rapid deployment of native IPv6. Regards, RD From jcjvcp@16kdesign.com Tue May 19 05:44:06 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 772283A69C5 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 05:44:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.113 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.113 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dzo8pyh76+C0 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 05:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bzq-84-109-98-48.red.bezeqint.net (bzq-84-109-98-48.red.bezeqint.net [84.109.98.48]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 116703A6C31 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 05:44:04 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 05:44:04 -0700 (PDT)

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue May 19 07:35:32 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFAFB3A6E7C for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:35:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.017 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.017 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.822, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U4qeSKEggq+6 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E04D3A6DC8 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:35:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6QKl-0000IK-E7 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 19 May 2009 14:30:23 +0000 Received: from [130.76.64.48] (helo=slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6QKY-0000GH-8I for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 19 May 2009 14:30:16 +0000 Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (slb-av-01.boeing.com [129.172.13.4]) by slb-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id n4JETxGB002234 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 19 May 2009 07:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4JETxNs029355; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4JETv4D029267; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 19 May 2009 07:29:58 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 07:29:57 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43987@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <4A12796B.6030609@free.fr> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Thread-Index: AcnYYtQ5c9KxKTuuToCSKD2teFgTKwAIysRQ References: <20090508034237.ABE583A69FE@core3.amsl.com> <001d01c9d42d$1cf4c570$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F06D5B@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A12796B.6030609@free.fr> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= Cc: "Sheng Jiang" , , , , "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 May 2009 14:29:58.0251 (UTC) FILETIME=[493DC3B0:01C9D88E] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Remi, > -----Original Message----- > From: R=E9mi Despr=E9s [mailto:remi.despres@free.fr] > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:19 AM > To: Templin, Fred L > Cc: Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; = brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com; Fleischman, > Eric; Russert, Steven W > Subject: Re: New Version Notification for = draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >=20 > Templin, Fred L - le (m/j/a) 5/14/09 5:17 PM: > > Dear authors, > > > > The document is clean and concise, which is appreciated. > > However, section 3.2 seems to be showing preference > > toward a particular tunneling technology, and I'd like > > to understand that better. >=20 > As explained in the 6rd draft (soon to become an RFC), 6rd solves the > major problem of 6to4: the lack of guarantee that paths exist between > all IPv6 sites and all 6to4 sites, and that these paths have ISP > controlled QoS. Yes, so is VET soon to become an RFC. But, 6rd is not solving a 6to4 problem with its open relays; it is solving an intra-site problem with ordinary IPv6 routers just like VET. =20 > > To understand this, we must first observe that the 6rd > > approach relies on anycast for CPE router accessing of > > IPv6 routers within the IPv4 ISP network. >=20 > The important point is that the 6rd-relay address MAY be anycast. If > there is only one relay at this address, there is no difference with = an > anycast address. > Reasons for permitting anycast are SCALABILITY and AVAILABILITY of = the > solution: Just for the record, ISATAP/VET can use anycast just the same as for 6rd but chose not to specify it. This choice was based on deliberations between authors and working group alike that identified the stated problems. > - if available relays seem to be soon insufficient for the traffic, = just > add one more, at the same anycast address. While ISATAP is intra-site, > 6rd relays, like those of 6to4 which also use an anycast address, have > to support all the IPv6 traffic of an ISP that uses 6rd. > - if a 6rd-relay fails, the traffic goes to another one. No; 6rd is intra-site. The site is the ISP operator's network. > The idea of > > anycast was entertained and abandoned by the ISATAP > > team in the 2001/2002 timeframe when ISATAP was still > > being developed in the ngtrans working group. This came > > after much discussion among authors and guidance from > > the working group. Reasons include: > > > > 1) if the tunnel fragments, fragments of the same packet > > may go to different anycast-addressed routers. >=20 > If the ISP supports an IPv4 MTU long enough for IPv6 packets of 1280 > octets (as it should) and discards longer ones, no fragmentation is = ever > needed. > This is common with 6to4, which uses anycast addressing for its = relays. 1280 is an unsatisfactory MTU for customer devices that would prefer to use 1500. The CPE is an in-the-network tunnel endpoint such that customer devices on a 1500 segment would be constantly inconvenienced with ICMP PTB messages were the CPE to deploy with only 1280. But, if you want to push the CPE tunnel endpoint to 1500, you have to allow for the possibility of fragmentation. VET and SEAL solve this problem. > > 2) with anycast, there is no opportunity for default > > router selection (when there are multiple) >=20 > Yes. But what is the practical problem? If there are multiple PE routers in the ISP network, the CPE should have the ability to distinguish them and choose between them - just as for any link where there may be multiple routers. > > 3) with anycast, there is no opportunity for traffic > > engineering >=20 > Different source zones may be oriented toward different relays, or = relay > farms with internal load balancers. Traffic engineering is the ability for a CPE router to direct some traffic through PE router A and other traffic through PE router B. With anycast, the CPE router can't discern A from B. > All the complexity of deciding which customer sites should receive = which > unicast addresses is avoided. I don't see anything having to do with complexity, really. And, it's the very same consideration as to which customers should receive which DNS suffixes. > > 4) with anycast, IPv6 neighbor discovery over the > > tunnel may yield unpredictable results >=20 > Neighbor discovery doesn't apply more over 6rd tunnels than it does on > 6to4 tunnels. Neighbor discovery is useful in many ways. NUD, default router preferences and more specific routes, SEND, and many more. 6rd is not really comparable to 6to4, however; 6rd is intra-site just as ISATAP/VET. > > 5) with anycast, there is need for a manual provisioning > > of IPv6 prefixes and IPv4 anycast address on the CPE > > router. >=20 > As explained in the draft, Free deployed 6rd with their 6rd parameters > included in their downloaded CPE software (IPv6 prefix and relay = anycast > address). This is unnecessarily marrying the CPE devices to the ISP in a way that CPE vendors might not appreciate. It also makes renumbering and discovery of new prefixes quite cumbersome. =20 > For independently supplied CPEs , tools to convey these parameters = have > to be specified. As far as I know, Mark Townsley is working on a > proposal for this. If Mark Townsley is working on a proposal for this, he is re-inventing ISATAP PRL discovery. See also my proposal for stateless DHCP prefix delegation for the 6rd prefix. Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > Regards, >=20 > RD From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue May 19 07:35:38 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BFCA3A6E55 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:35:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.845 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.845 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.965, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H1V70hvNC4FX for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EB153A6DC8 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:35:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6QKs-0000J6-Tr for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 19 May 2009 14:30:30 +0000 Received: from [130.76.64.48] (helo=slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6QKY-0000GI-8I for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 19 May 2009 14:30:16 +0000 Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (slb-av-01.boeing.com [129.172.13.4]) by slb-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id n4JEU061002246 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 19 May 2009 07:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from slb-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4JEU0FU029395; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by slb-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4JETv4J029267; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:29:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 19 May 2009 07:29:59 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 07:29:59 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43988@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <4A127C0E.8090709@free.fr> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Thread-Index: AcnYZGYHG7dG1oguRvCc/omlzcH1sAAJZ50Q References: <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <4A127C0E.8090709@free.fr> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , "Sheng Jiang" Cc: "Brian E Carpenter" , , , "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 May 2009 14:29:59.0782 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A276060:01C9D88E] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: R=E9mi Despr=E9s [mailto:remi.despres@free.fr] > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:30 AM > To: Sheng Jiang > Cc: Templin, Fred L; 'Brian E Carpenter'; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; = guoseu@huawei.com; Fleischman, Eric; > Russert, Steven W > Subject: Re: New Version Notification for = draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >=20 > Sheng Jiang - le (m/j/a) 5/15/09 4:12 AM: >=20 > > However, our draft does no intend to make judge of 6rd, or other = tunnel > > techonogies. We actually would like to list serveral suitable tunnel > > techonogies with brief introductions in order to complete our = puzzle. As we > > ready state in the draft, "ISATAP or VET are also be considered." = Actually, > > one thing we can do for next version is to expand this section a = little bit, > > to include brief introductions for Auto GRE, ISATAP and VET. = However, we > > also think 6rd is suitable and do not want to rule it out. >=20 > Yes. >=20 > As far as I know, among ISATAP, VET, and 6rd, the latter is the only > one to have been actually deployed on a large scale, offering native > IPv6 to millions of customer sites. It deserves IMHO to be understood = as > such. Hmm, ISATAP is in all of our Windows PCs right now and has been for years. Various other proprietary and public domain implementations support it as well. Various sites use it, but its hard to know which ones because it all just looks like IPv6 when it comes out of the site. I hear that it is used fairly extensively in China, and also in large corporate enterprise networks. Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > More details in: > http://rosie.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe- > = 58/presentations/uploads//presentations/Tuesday/Plenary%2011:00/Cassen-IP= v6_at_Free.wWE6.pdf >=20 > Best regards, >=20 > RD From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue May 19 07:58:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 342B73A6C1C for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:58:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.728 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.728 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.645, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8pGoXef+wwN5 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51D343A6BC3 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:58:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6Qkz-0003Nc-Ha for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 19 May 2009 14:57:29 +0000 Received: from [212.27.42.4] (helo=smtp4-g21.free.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6Qkl-0003MH-Gz for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 19 May 2009 14:57:22 +0000 Received: from smtp4-g21.free.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id C34904C80D2; Tue, 19 May 2009 16:57:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from RD-Mac.local (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by smtp4-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155F64C8150; Tue, 19 May 2009 16:57:03 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A12C8BB.8040304@free.fr> Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 16:56:59 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Templin, Fred L" CC: Sheng Jiang , Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn References: <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <4A127C0E.8090709@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43988@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43988@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Templin, Fred L - le (m/j/a) 5/19/09 4:29 PM: > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rémi Després [mailto:remi.despres@free.fr] >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:30 AM >> To: Sheng Jiang >> Cc: Templin, Fred L; 'Brian E Carpenter'; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; Fleischman, Eric; >> Russert, Steven W >> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >> >> Sheng Jiang - le (m/j/a) 5/15/09 4:12 AM: >> >>> However, our draft does no intend to make judge of 6rd, or other tunnel >>> techonogies. We actually would like to list serveral suitable tunnel >>> techonogies with brief introductions in order to complete our puzzle. As we >>> ready state in the draft, "ISATAP or VET are also be considered." Actually, >>> one thing we can do for next version is to expand this section a little bit, >>> to include brief introductions for Auto GRE, ISATAP and VET. However, we >>> also think 6rd is suitable and do not want to rule it out. >> Yes. >> >> As far as I know, among ISATAP, VET, and 6rd, the latter is the only >> one to have been actually deployed on a large scale, offering native >> IPv6 to millions of customer sites. It deserves IMHO to be understood as >> such. > > Hmm, ISATAP is in all of our Windows PCs right now and > has been for years. Various other proprietary and public > domain implementations support it as well. Various sites > use it, but its hard to know which ones because it all > just looks like IPv6 when it comes out of the site. I > hear that it is used fairly extensively in China, and > also in large corporate enterprise networks. Fair enough. My remark applied ONLY to ISPs that offer native IPv6 to their customer sites across IPv4 ISP infrastructures, not to private sites. Regards, RD From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue May 19 08:20:09 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CAA43A6A6C for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 08:20:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.986 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.986 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.791, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9Xq5c0x4TtH9 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 08:20:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF2E33A6A24 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 08:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6R6T-000627-9x for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 19 May 2009 15:19:41 +0000 Received: from [130.76.96.56] (helo=stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6R6H-0005zx-4Q for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 19 May 2009 15:19:34 +0000 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (stl-av-01.boeing.com [192.76.190.6]) by stl-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id n4JFJJnb013811 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 19 May 2009 10:19:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4JFJJAo026698; Tue, 19 May 2009 10:19:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4JFJAWH026429; Tue, 19 May 2009 10:19:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 19 May 2009 08:19:16 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 08:19:15 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43A1A@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Thread-Index: AcnYZpV72M30zAyoRLqtHSMKo18yUgALj2Eg References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= Cc: "Sheng Jiang" , "Brian E Carpenter" , , , "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 May 2009 15:19:16.0886 (UTC) FILETIME=[2CB9A360:01C9D895] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Remi, (resend - sorry, my fingers slipped on the first try...) > -----Original Message----- > From: R=E9mi Despr=E9s [mailto:remi.despres@free.fr] > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:45 AM > To: Templin, Fred L > Cc: Sheng Jiang; Brian E Carpenter; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; = guoseu@huawei.com; Fleischman, Eric; Russert, > Steven W > Subject: Re: New Version Notification for = draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >=20 > Templin, Fred L - le (m/j/a) 5/15/09 9:36 PM: > > With this said, I'd like to propose something toward Remi. > > You will be wanting some way for CPE devices to discover > > the ISP's 6rd-relays IPv6 prefix. This can be easily > > accommodated by defining a new DHCPv6 option (the > > "6rd Prefix Option"?) for which the sole purpose is > > to convey a prefix and prefix length. >=20 > There is indeed a need. >=20 > Note that it should rather be a *DHCPv4* option, since it is needed > before there is IPv6 connectivity. Not if there is link-local IPv6 capability as ISATAP/VET have. With link-local IPv6, DHCPv6 gives the natural alternative for obtaining stateless information like 6rd prefix and stateful information like *real* IPv6 prefixes. I believe many customers would prefer the latter. =20 > As mentioned in another email, and as far as I know, Mark Townsley is > working on it. > > I believe it should be quickly agreed on, to expand applicability of a > useful tool for rapid deployment of native IPv6. Native IPv6 is not necessary with a solid VET deployment. With VET, you deploy it once and leave it. With 6rd, you deploy twice - once for the initial 6rd deployment and again when the ISP has (unnecessarily) converted all of its routers and networks to IPv6. Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com >=20 > Regards, >=20 > RD From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue May 19 08:21:24 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C8BB3A6BC3 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 08:21:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.973 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.973 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.778, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z5pwxF+kzHGK for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 08:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EF793A69C5 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 08:21:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6R8O-0006Jz-FW for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 19 May 2009 15:21:40 +0000 Received: from [130.76.64.48] (helo=slb-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6R8A-0006Hq-3W for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 19 May 2009 15:21:32 +0000 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (blv-av-01.boeing.com [130.247.48.231]) by slb-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id n4JEU1Eh002305 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 19 May 2009 07:30:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4JEU0Cw028658; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4JEU0qr028625; Tue, 19 May 2009 07:30:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 19 May 2009 07:30:00 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 07:29:59 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Thread-Index: AcnYZpV72M30zAyoRLqtHSMKo18yUgAI+dhA References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= Cc: "Sheng Jiang" , "Brian E Carpenter" , , , "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 May 2009 14:30:00.0439 (UTC) FILETIME=[4A8BA070:01C9D88E] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Remi, > -----Original Message----- > From: R=E9mi Despr=E9s [mailto:remi.despres@free.fr] > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:45 AM > To: Templin, Fred L > Cc: Sheng Jiang; Brian E Carpenter; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; = guoseu@huawei.com; Fleischman, Eric; Russert, > Steven W > Subject: Re: New Version Notification for = draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >=20 > Templin, Fred L - le (m/j/a) 5/15/09 9:36 PM: > > With this said, I'd like to propose something toward Remi. > > You will be wanting some way for CPE devices to discover > > the ISP's 6rd-relays IPv6 prefix. This can be easily > > accommodated by defining a new DHCPv6 option (the > > "6rd Prefix Option"?) for which the sole purpose is > > to convey a prefix and prefix length. >=20 > There is indeed a need. >=20 > Note that it should rather be a *DHCPv4* option, since it is needed > before there is IPv6 connectivity. Not if there is link-local IPv6 capability as ISATAP/VET have. With link-local IPv6, DHCPv6 gives the natural alternative for obtaining stateless information like 6rd prefix and stateful information like *real* IPv6 prefixes. I believe many customers would prefer the latter. =20 > As mentioned in another email, and as far as I know, Mark Townsley is > working on it. Mark has been consistently pushing back on and delaying my work - in a blocking fashion. Maybe this is why. > I believe it should be quickly agreed on, to expand applicability of a > useful tool for rapid deployment of native IPv6. Native IPv6 is not necessary with a solid VET deployment. With VET, you deploy it once and leave it. With 6rd, you deploy twice - once for the initial 6rd deployment and again when the ISP has (unnecessarily) converted all of its routers and networks to IPv6. Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com >=20 > Regards, >=20 > RD From markstrom@adobeinc.com Tue May 19 09:32:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55E693A6959 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 09:32:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.1 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119, HOST_EQ_STATIC=1.172, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XTXhDowwKDJu for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 09:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 212.199.144.158.static.012.net.il (212.199.144.158.static.012.net.il [212.199.144.158]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 015033A68B6 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 09:32:27 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:32:27 -0700 (PDT)

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue May 19 12:28:18 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC9553A6C0B for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 12:28:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.384 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.384 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.053, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oZvMYpUvRyq7 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 12:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C623A6A29 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 12:28:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6Uvf-0009Sf-9A for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 19 May 2009 19:24:47 +0000 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6UvQ-0009Pn-Dj for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 19 May 2009 19:24:40 +0000 Received: (qmail 60878 invoked by uid 1007); 19 May 2009 19:24:30 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=Lurfol+6x6sIwUKFhwRSq2qhfoHxKRufCJBT3sxUKHk9SzyyksoYri0PIrLdofkK ; Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 21:24:30 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: "Templin, Fred L" Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , Sheng Jiang , Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Message-ID: <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 07:29:59AM -0700, Templin, Fred L wrote: > > I believe it should be quickly agreed on, to expand applicability of a > > useful tool for rapid deployment of native IPv6. > > Native IPv6 is not necessary with a solid VET deployment. I can't follow that line of reasoning. The end result has to be an IPv6-only network, not something held together with IPv4 clutches. Native IPv6 without IPv4 is the only sustainable solution in the long run. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 128645 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue May 19 15:13:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021923A6E2E for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 15:13:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.626, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y+tr2lB1OhDE for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 15:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A642328C3A6 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 15:12:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6XVl-000Pib-Vk for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 19 May 2009 22:10:13 +0000 Received: from [130.76.96.56] (helo=stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6XVX-000Ph4-9p for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 19 May 2009 22:10:07 +0000 Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (stl-av-01.boeing.com [192.76.190.6]) by stl-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id n4JM9hXT028351 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 19 May 2009 17:09:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from stl-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4JM9gic008875; Tue, 19 May 2009 17:09:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by stl-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4JM9esf008781; Tue, 19 May 2009 17:09:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 19 May 2009 15:09:41 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 15:09:39 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43E29@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Thread-Index: AcnYt3FRAHEtF+mjTIqcw3HMSRf9SAAE0rrg References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Gert Doering" Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , "Sheng Jiang" , "Brian E Carpenter" , , , "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 19 May 2009 22:09:41.0435 (UTC) FILETIME=[8219A0B0:01C9D8CE] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: Gert Doering [mailto:gert@space.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 12:25 PM > To: Templin, Fred L > Cc: R=E9mi Despr=E9s; Sheng Jiang; Brian E Carpenter; = v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; Fleischman, > Eric; Russert, Steven W > Subject: Re: New Version Notification for = draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 07:29:59AM -0700, Templin, Fred L wrote: > > > I believe it should be quickly agreed on, to expand applicability = of a > > > useful tool for rapid deployment of native IPv6. > > > > Native IPv6 is not necessary with a solid VET deployment. > > I can't follow that line of reasoning. The end result has to be an > IPv6-only network, not something held together with IPv4 clutches. IMHO, native IPv6 in edge networks is desirable and natural, where the edge networks may be as simple as a singleton node and its attached devices. What we are talking about here is VET deployment of IPv6 over IPv4 networks, but it is not "held together" with IPv4. It is instead held together with IPv6 routing and addressing. > Native IPv6 without IPv4 is the only sustainable solution in the long = run. This strikes me as a matter of opinion, and does not mesh well with use cases and deployment scenarios we are seeing. See RANGER(S): http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-russert-rangers http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-ranger Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com >=20 > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 128645 >=20 > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. = Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue May 19 23:34:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C3E628C0E9 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 23:34:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.397 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.040, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ufCbbW3Rw0Ty for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 23:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF26A28C137 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 23:34:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6fIy-000BS6-UW for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 06:29:32 +0000 Received: from [195.30.1.100] (helo=moebius2.Space.Net) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6fIl-000BQw-GZ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 06:29:26 +0000 Received: (qmail 21285 invoked by uid 1007); 20 May 2009 06:29:16 -0000 Comment: DomainKeys? See http://antispam.yahoo.com/domainkeys DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=testkey; d=space.net; b=P6IQNDLftXCXM1ia+u+zfPvCjiE+1S0WGTjIYtzxy7mpiyMTS4mfDIcCNyUv3+zU ; Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 08:29:16 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: "Fleischman, Eric" Cc: Gert Doering , "Templin, Fred L" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , Sheng Jiang , Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Russert, Steven W" Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Message-ID: <20090520062916.GN2776@Space.Net> References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A0D9@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Cbenas31+RCQZ+vf" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A0D9@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.1i X-NCC-RegID: de.space Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --Cbenas31+RCQZ+vf Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 03:44:30PM -0700, Fleischman, Eric wrote: > Your position below is very familiar to me since it was the same > position that the UN and world's governments took about OSI. By > contrast, I state that there is a strong motivation by the end user > to use IPv4 indefinitely until a compelling reason to migrate to > IPv6 arises. As soon as a certain critical amount of networks and network traffic=20 are using IPv6, maintaining IPv4 is extra cost with doubtful benefit. =20 This alone is a reason to abandon IPv4. I'm not talking about "this year", but about a few years in the future. > At this current time, IPv6 is very immature and IPv6 deployments > have very high risk when compared to IPv4 for the end user. There > are only negative business reasons for deploying IPv6 at this time > (i.e., I can articulate many compelling business reasons to NOT > deploy IPv6 but the only reason to deploy it in the USA today is > government decree -- which didn't work for OSI and is unlikely to > work alone by itself for IPv6.). There are currently no technical > reasons for the end user to prefer or want IPv6 over IPv4. "End users" don't want IPv4 either. They want web, mail, skype, bittorrent. There already are large IPv6 deployments (free.fr has active IPv6 customers in the order of a million users, if I remember the numbers right). Other big telcos are working on rolling out IPv6 to their DSL customer base - and as soon as that happens, you have IPv6 users. They wouldn't know, of cours= e, but that doesn't matter. (Of course this is a europe-centric view. IPv6 is happening here :) ). Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 128645 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --Cbenas31+RCQZ+vf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature Content-Disposition: inline -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2 (FreeBSD) iQCVAwUBShOjPKkuBuNlUUl1AQLglQQAgAwJT4yu6CVyvmQj+VTy00NZk0vCgFBG F86ocrOmBNn9p2EoHIl+2wihZTqh0GW5Ajva32ipwZm9EvL9FldCu+05CnV8hHtd NYMteRgDSBpzhTBO1Mq4ndkGVCnRKdXxGRFiya3J17svpsvGOnenpcibPRGE4RAk zpC7gN1vKHY= =ICR3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Cbenas31+RCQZ+vf-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue May 19 23:49:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23DB93A6944 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 23:49:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.152 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.152 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.343, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BKI2v3MzS+zi for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 23:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEE3A3A6872 for ; Tue, 19 May 2009 23:49:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6fba-000CoO-5H for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 06:48:46 +0000 Received: from [119.145.14.67] (helo=szxga04-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6fbE-000CmB-W7 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 06:48:39 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KJX00GONK8527@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 14:48:05 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.17.1.36]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KJX00LGEK84GE@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 14:48:04 +0800 (CST) Received: from [172.24.1.6] (Forwarded-For: [213.3.13.134]) by szxmc04-in.huawei.com (mshttpd); Wed, 20 May 2009 14:48:04 +0800 Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 14:48:04 +0800 From: JiangSheng 66104 Subject: Re: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn In-reply-to: <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A0D9@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> To: "Fleischman, Eric" Cc: Gert Doering , "Templin, Fred L" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Russert, Steven W" , shengjiang@huawei.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A0D9@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: =3E end users view networks as a business overhead expense and are = =3E unlikely to needlessly spend money on networking technology = =3E without a solid business motivation to do so=2E I went on to explain = =3E that IPng is unlikely to be deployed by us end users unless it = =3E becomes bundled with a business requirement=2C the most compelling = =3E of which would be a new Killer Application that demanded IPv6 = =3E capabilities in order to function=2E Fully agreed=2E This is particularly true for IPv6 deployment in last ten= year - failure to find a killer application=2E A right business model is= actually more important than technology itself=2E =3E At this current time=2C IPv6 is very immature and IPv6 deployments = =3E have very high risk when compared to IPv4 for the end user=2E There = =3E are only negative business reasons for deploying IPv6 at this time = =3E (i=2Ee=2E=2C I can articulate many compelling business reasons to NOT= = =3E deploy IPv6 but the only reason to deploy it in the USA today is = =3E government decree -- which didn=27t work for OSI and is unlikely to = =3E work alone by itself for IPv6=2E)=2E There are currently no technical= = =3E reasons for the end user to prefer or want IPv6 over IPv4=2E = I believe this situation is changed=2E IPv4 has reached its limitation=2E= End-user will soon find that they could NOT obtain a public IPv4 address= and with private IPv4 address (maybe more than one NAT in the way) they = were only able to communicate with part of Internet world=2E ISP has met = the problem that they cannot adopt new services due to the lack of public= address=2E = =3E Unless this changes in the future=2C IPv6 will continue to not be = =3E deployed by end users despite the efforts of Apple and Microsoft = =3E and others to ease its adoption=2E But then=2C since not all ISPs = =3E support IPv6 today and the DFZ Internet is currently unprepared = =3E for the BGP scaling problems that would arise with a mixed IPv4- =3E IPv6 infrastructure this is probably A Good Thing=2E This is a real issue which has been ignored by IPv6 community for years=2E= My guess is IPv6 community does not want to discuss this because it may = even more block IPv6 deployment=2E However=2C it is time for us to face i= t and solve it or avaoid it=2E = =3E I personally *HOPE* that IPv6 will become deployed -- after all=2C I = =3E spent many years helping to create it=2E But my experience with pre- =3E TCP/IP protocols (I used to be an SNA and BSC =22expert=22) is that = =3E even if IPv6 becomes widely deployed=2C IPv4 will endure for a = =3E surprisingly long time (decades)=2E = Yes=2C it will be years=2E I believe the whole internet society has accep= ted this and be prepared for a 25+ year co-existing period=2E Best regards=2C Sheng = =3E I have many conflicting visions of what this could mean=2E Back in = =3E 1999 Tony Li privately explained to me how IPv4 could endure = =3E forever with no IPv6 ever being deployed=2E Tony=27s insights are = =3E commonplace today as evidenced by the combination of NATs=2C private = =3E addresses=2C and VPNs=2E I admit that as a possibility but I hope tha= t = =3E it doesn=27t happen=2E I prefer for IPv6 to gradually become deployed= = =3E and replace IPv4=2E However=2C my clear preference is for the = =3E flexibility of the RANGER solution=2E The RANGER solution creates an = =3E interworking environment so that it interworking occurs no matter = =3E what the transport is at any part of the Internet -- the network = =3E can cleanly support IPv4 only=2C IPv6 only=2C or IPv4-IPv6 all mixed = =3E together=2E Such flexibility is a powerful tool for handling = =3E whatever vision we may have for the future of networking=2E =3E = =3E --Eric Fleischman =3E = =3E -----Original Message----- =3E From=3A Gert Doering =5Bmailto=3Agert=40space=2Enet=5D = =3E Sent=3A Tuesday=2C May 19=2C 2009 12=3A25 PM =3E To=3A Templin=2C Fred L =3E Cc=3A R=E9mi Despr=E9s=3B Sheng Jiang=3B Brian E Carpenter=3B = =3E v6ops=40ops=2Eietf=2Eorg=3B guoseu=40huawei=2Ecom=3B Fleischman=2C Er= ic=3B Russert=2C = =3E Steven W =3E Subject=3A Re=3A New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops- =3E incremental-cgn =3E = =3E Hi=2C =3E = =3E On Tue=2C May 19=2C 2009 at 07=3A29=3A59AM -0700=2C Templin=2C Fred L= wrote=3A =3E =3E =3E I believe it should be quickly agreed on=2C to expand = =3E applicability of = =3E =3E =3E a useful tool for rapid deployment of native IPv6=2E =3E =3E = =3E =3E Native IPv6 is not necessary with a solid VET deployment=2E =3E = =3E I can=27t follow that line of reasoning=2E The end result has to be = =3E an IPv6-only network=2C not something held together with IPv4 clutche= s=2E =3E = =3E Native IPv6 without IPv4 is the only sustainable solution in the = =3E long run=2E =3E = =3E Gert Doering =3E -- NetMaster =3E -- =3E Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations=3A 128645= =3E = =3E SpaceNet AG Vorstand=3A Sebastian v=2E Bomhard= =3E Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors=2E=3A A=2E Grund= ner- =3E CulemannD-80807 Muenchen HRB=3A 136055 (AG Muenchen= ) =3E Tel=3A +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr=2E=3A DE813185279 =3E From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 20 00:55:28 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1ABA43A70E5 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 00:55:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rVUAapdVSvPT for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 00:55:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C70628C1E4 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 00:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6gbz-000IXu-Mv for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 07:53:15 +0000 Received: from [2001:738:0:411::241] (helo=mail.ki.iif.hu) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6gbm-000IWL-0E for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 07:53:08 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F06F85128; Wed, 20 May 2009 09:52:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mignon.ki.iif.hu Received: from mail.ki.iif.hu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mignon.ki.iif.hu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 29WW3DBbVxO1; Wed, 20 May 2009 09:52:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix, from userid 9002) id A09528515F; Wed, 20 May 2009 09:52:56 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D0EC85136; Wed, 20 May 2009 09:52:56 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 09:52:56 +0200 (CEST) From: Mohacsi Janos X-X-Sender: mohacsi@mignon.ki.iif.hu To: JiangSheng 66104 cc: "Fleischman, Eric" , Gert Doering , "Templin, Fred L" , =?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Russert, Steven W" Subject: Re: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A0D9@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Wed, 20 May 2009, JiangSheng 66104 wrote: >> end users view networks as a business overhead expense and are >> unlikely to needlessly spend money on networking technology >> without a solid business motivation to do so. I went on to explain >> that IPng is unlikely to be deployed by us end users unless it >> becomes bundled with a business requirement, the most compelling >> of which would be a new Killer Application that demanded IPv6 >> capabilities in order to function. > > Fully agreed. This is particularly true for IPv6 deployment in last ten > year - failure to find a killer application. A right business model is > actually more important than technology itself. Solid business motivation - your providers wants to increase the service provisioning fee since they have to pay for the public IP address Killer aplication - Internet Protocol (with version independent applications) > > >> Unless this changes in the future, IPv6 will continue to not be >> deployed by end users despite the efforts of Apple and Microsoft >> and others to ease its adoption. But then, since not all ISPs >> support IPv6 today and the DFZ Internet is currently unprepared >> for the BGP scaling problems that would arise with a mixed IPv4- >> IPv6 infrastructure this is probably A Good Thing. > > This is a real issue which has been ignored by IPv6 community for years. > My guess is IPv6 community does not want to discuss this because it may > even more block IPv6 deployment. However, it is time for us to face it > and solve it or avaoid it. According to our findings in our IPv6 deployment: - deploying IPv6 on backbone network is easy and relatively painless - deploying IPv6 on access network is not obvious, but can be done in scalable way - deploying IPv6 at customers is very painful - very conservative application owners are hindering of introducing IPv6 even when their application cannot support it.... - deploying IPv6 at home has showstoppers: no IPv6 capable CPE under 100 USD. After introducing such a device - at least 10 years is necessary to the users to replace older devices..... > >> I personally *HOPE* that IPv6 will become deployed -- after all, I >> spent many years helping to create it. But my experience with pre- >> TCP/IP protocols (I used to be an SNA and BSC "expert") is that >> even if IPv6 becomes widely deployed, IPv4 will endure for a >> surprisingly long time (decades). > > Yes, it will be years. I believe the whole internet society has accepted > this and be prepared for a 25+ year co-existing period. Agreed. Best Regards, Janos Mohacsi From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 20 01:01:07 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71FA63A6944 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 01:01:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.464 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.464 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.268, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_JP=1.244, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Wi52+ZdUIM0n for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 01:01:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA783A6818 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 01:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6gjC-000J7m-O6 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 08:00:42 +0000 Received: from [202.32.8.193] (helo=tyo201.gate.nec.co.jp) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6gis-000J53-A3 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 08:00:28 +0000 Received: from mailgate3.nec.co.jp ([10.7.69.192]) by tyo201.gate.nec.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id n4K8033B027306; Wed, 20 May 2009 17:00:03 +0900 (JST) Received: (from root@localhost) by mailgate3.nec.co.jp (8.11.7/3.7W-MAILGATE-NEC) id n4K803X12722; Wed, 20 May 2009 17:00:03 +0900 (JST) Received: from bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.82.141.45]) by mailsv3.nec.co.jp (8.13.8/8.13.4) with ESMTP id n4K802q9019905; Wed, 20 May 2009 17:00:02 +0900 (JST) Received: from bsac29088.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by bgas200085.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/06101717) with ESMTP id n4K8026q030752; Wed, 20 May 2009 17:00:02 +0900 Received: from mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (bgsx5626.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.18.151.10]) by bsac29088.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/06101717) with ESMTP id n4K802YB002854; Wed, 20 May 2009 17:00:02 +0900 Received: from [127.0.0.1] (bdonet119.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp [10.19.136.119]) (authenticated bits=0) (envelope-from kawamucho@mesh.ad.jp) by mail.sys.biglobe.nec.co.jp (BINGO/BINGO/06101717) with ESMTP id n4K802tC011254 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 20 May 2009 17:00:02 +0900 Message-ID: <4A13B880.3050407@mesh.ad.jp> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:00:00 +0900 From: Seiichi Kawamura User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.19 (Windows/20081209) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Gert Doering CC: "Fleischman, Eric" , "Templin, Fred L" , =?ISO-2022-JP?B?UmUnbWkgRGVzcHJlJ3M=?= , Sheng Jiang , Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Russert, Steven W" Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A0D9@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090520062916.GN2776@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20090520062916.GN2776@Space.Net> X-Enigmail-Version: 0.95.7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Hi A document such as this is very helpful and I thank the authors. One concern I have about this kind of model is the widespread ICMP filtering in IPv4 networks. I see many ISPs that filter ICMPv6 just as they do with IPv4 and has been causing problmes. This is especially important in a tunnel based solution such as this. > As soon as a certain critical amount of networks and network traffic > are using IPv6, maintaining IPv4 is extra cost with doubtful benefit. > > This alone is a reason to abandon IPv4. IMHO, maintaining a fully dual stacked network is very expensive. How expensive? would depend on the size of your network, or what equipment you are using, or what kind of services you provide, but some day when IPv6 does spread, the "extra cost" will need to be charged to customers and that's probably when we may start to see a motivation by the end users. As far as my network goes, configurations are 1.5 times longer, maintenance time is slightly longer, and all automation and management tools need be developed and maintained to support both stacks. Regards, Seiichi Kawamura -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (MingW32) iD8DBQFKE7iAcrhTYfxyMkIRAku/AJ40myWRtgLVNTR+5xvwxxLkM/+mfQCffjHT CyppSE6gXszqiEtNbOrqED8= =CiGi -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 20 01:21:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15AF73A7107 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 01:21:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.718 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.718 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.635, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TeadhW+ZeRg0 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 01:21:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BAA353A7101 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 01:20:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6h2J-000Kfm-Bn for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 08:20:27 +0000 Received: from [212.27.42.1] (helo=smtp1-g21.free.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6h26-000Kef-HV for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 08:20:21 +0000 Received: from smtp1-g21.free.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8825B9401A2; Wed, 20 May 2009 10:20:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from RD-Mac.local (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by smtp1-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18581940111; Wed, 20 May 2009 10:20:01 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A13BD2D.1040901@free.fr> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 10:19:57 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mohacsi Janos CC: JiangSheng 66104 , "Fleischman, Eric" , Gert Doering , "Templin, Fred L" , Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Russert, Steven W" Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A0D9@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Mohacsi Janos - le (m/j/a) 5/20/09 9:52 AM: > According to our findings in our IPv6 deployment: > - deploying IPv6 on backbone network is easy and relatively painless > - deploying IPv6 on access network is not obvious, but can be done in > scalable way > - deploying IPv6 at customers is very painful - very conservative > application owners are hindering of introducing IPv6 even when their > application cannot support it.... > > - deploying IPv6 at home has showstoppers: no IPv6 capable CPE under 100 > USD. After introducing such a device - at least 10 years is necessary to > the users to replace older devices..... I suggest a look at draft-despres-6rd-03 (soon to become an informational RFC). Thanks to the 6rd idea, Free, the second largest Internet provider in France with millions of residential customers, has offered IPv6 to its home sites at no extra charge since December 2007. I use IPv6 on a regular basis for Google access, GoogleMap, document access on IETF servers etc. In my understanding, BitTorrent on Free's network works better in IPv6 than in IPv4 because hosts can receive incoming calls without limitations caused by IPv4 NATs. > >> >>> I personally *HOPE* that IPv6 will become deployed -- after all, I >>> spent many years helping to create it. But my experience with pre- >>> TCP/IP protocols (I used to be an SNA and BSC "expert") is that >>> even if IPv6 becomes widely deployed, IPv4 will endure for a >>> surprisingly long time (decades). >> >> Yes, it will be years. I believe the whole internet society has >> accepted this and be prepared for a 25+ year co-existing period. Coexistence is fine provided plain IPv6 is made rapidly available. IPv4 should be used less and less as more and more hosts have IPv6 access. Regards, RD From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 20 02:07:34 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 582633A7111 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:07:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.292 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.292 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.307, BAYES_00=-2.599, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KOHj3fQrSUVj for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8097B3A6FCB for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6hjq-000P71-O8 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 09:05:26 +0000 Received: from [2001:738:0:411::241] (helo=mail.ki.iif.hu) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6hjc-000P5Q-Jk for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 09:05:20 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB4685104; Wed, 20 May 2009 11:05:08 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mignon.ki.iif.hu Received: from mail.ki.iif.hu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mignon.ki.iif.hu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id 4YRAZqVxr02r; Wed, 20 May 2009 11:05:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix, from userid 9002) id 2FA208507F; Wed, 20 May 2009 11:05:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28DC285009; Wed, 20 May 2009 11:05:06 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:05:05 +0200 (CEST) From: Mohacsi Janos X-X-Sender: mohacsi@mignon.ki.iif.hu To: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= cc: JiangSheng 66104 , "Fleischman, Eric" , Gert Doering , "Templin, Fred L" , Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Russert, Steven W" Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn In-Reply-To: <4A13BD2D.1040901@free.fr> Message-ID: References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A0D9@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A13BD2D.1040901@free.fr> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="0-1295697056-1242810306=:18643" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. --0-1295697056-1242810306=:18643 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 20 May 2009, Rémi Després wrote: > Mohacsi Janos - le (m/j/a) 5/20/09 9:52 AM: > >> According to our findings in our IPv6 deployment: >> - deploying IPv6 on backbone network is easy and relatively painless >> - deploying IPv6 on access network is not obvious, but can be done in >> scalable way >> - deploying IPv6 at customers is very painful - very conservative >> application owners are hindering of introducing IPv6 even when their >> application cannot support it.... >> >> - deploying IPv6 at home has showstoppers: no IPv6 capable CPE under 100 >> USD. After introducing such a device - at least 10 years is necessary to >> the users to replace older devices..... > > I suggest a look at draft-despres-6rd-03 (soon to become an informational > RFC). > Thanks to the 6rd idea, Free, the second largest Internet provider in France > with millions of residential customers, has offered IPv6 to its home sites at > no extra charge since December 2007. > I use IPv6 on a regular basis for Google access, GoogleMap, document access > on IETF servers etc. > > In my understanding, BitTorrent on Free's network works better in IPv6 than > in IPv4 because hosts can receive incoming calls without limitations caused > by IPv4 NATs. I very much aware 6rd solution - we discussed it on the IETF 72. The most important drawbacks: - requires providider control over the CPE devices. It could be improved the 6rd prefix made available via some method (.e.g DHCP) for generic CPE devices + persuade CPE vendors to implement this solution Best Regards, Janos Mohacsi > >> >>> >>>> I personally *HOPE* that IPv6 will become deployed -- after all, I >>>> spent many years helping to create it. But my experience with pre- >>>> TCP/IP protocols (I used to be an SNA and BSC "expert") is that >>>> even if IPv6 becomes widely deployed, IPv4 will endure for a >>>> surprisingly long time (decades). >>> >>> Yes, it will be years. I believe the whole internet society has accepted >>> this and be prepared for a 25+ year co-existing period. > > Coexistence is fine provided plain IPv6 is made rapidly available. IPv4 > should be used less and less as more and more hosts have IPv6 access. > > Regards, > > RD > > --0-1295697056-1242810306=:18643-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 20 02:11:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E58383A70F9 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:11:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.844, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, J_CHICKENPOX_36=0.6, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=1.396, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iL5oVdFs6gtE for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:11:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C729C3A711A for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:10:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6hpK-000Pur-WA for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 09:11:06 +0000 Received: from [213.172.48.142] (helo=consulintel.es) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6hp6-000PsJ-VZ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 09:11:00 +0000 DKIM-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nowsp; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1242813982; x=1243418782; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns; h=DomainKey-Signature:Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To: Message-ID:Thread-Topic:Thread-Index:In-Reply-To:Mime-version: Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; b=F8jG/yao95biXL NNRX8Q+82lI19+AZ+DRc7t1NDebFrLh1wcsqMfhn4xett78X/WPRUDjaI2+nJR92 sKJZxM1mSRlKowE0E+a6bbKnM7YZ82MxzGze4a3Y1ikhzVbNgG6WmkbPUHT1UgrQ CnIpmuXG4qiViYSfFQZIk9vFUPXn8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=N9IooVnwFqn3Wmlkv2Qkx3RuQ4kyH587S59q1eDff6azK+Zunj13pjs54rtrG2XBaIKLaCaRrEaT0cKzHttX+X4SymuFmfOEZdGp9bsJ8vkCFM9Hrq024rMy5fwzgoG3vRgHoudX9P7v3Ex723ZwJnWcjP/ZgKzmLRRX395zJNg=; Received: from [10.10.10.50] by consulintel.es (MDaemon.PRO.v8.1.5.R) with ESMTP id md50003305962.msg for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 11:06:20 +0200 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.17.0.090302 Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:10:41 +0200 Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Thread-Index: AcnZKtkKUgatwOw5IU6bldvmnFNDNg== In-Reply-To: <20090520062916.GN2776@Space.Net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:090520:v6ops@ops.ietf.org::Mr1SVWGZUow8OsRX:000000000000000000000000000000000000000000005C9 X-MDRemoteIP: 217.126.187.160 X-Return-Path: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDAV-Processed: consulintel.es, Wed, 20 May 2009 11:06:22 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Actually we have done real deployments with only-IPv6 in some networks that have a majority of IPv6 traffic already and we have been able to disable IPv6 in the core and access, keeping private IPv4 with NAT+global IPv6 addresses in the LANs and data center, then an IPv4-to-IPv6 proxy to access the rest of Internet, some other tricks to automatically tunnel IPv4-in-IPv6 (from the LANs to the Internet-border) in order to avoid using NAT-PT and still being able to use ALL the rest of IPv4 applications in Internet. So it is a real case from years, in some cases. Regards, Jordi > From: Gert Doering > Reply-To: > Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 08:29:16 +0200 > To: "Fleischman, Eric" > Cc: Gert Doering , "Templin, Fred L" > , R=E9mi Despr=E9s , Sheng Jiang > , Brian E Carpenter , > , , "Russert, Steven W" > > Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 03:44:30PM -0700, Fleischman, Eric wrote: >> Your position below is very familiar to me since it was the same >> position that the UN and world's governments took about OSI. By >> contrast, I state that there is a strong motivation by the end user >> to use IPv4 indefinitely until a compelling reason to migrate to >> IPv6 arises. >=20 > As soon as a certain critical amount of networks and network traffic > are using IPv6, maintaining IPv4 is extra cost with doubtful benefit. >=20 > This alone is a reason to abandon IPv4. >=20 > I'm not talking about "this year", but about a few years in the future. >=20 >=20 >> At this current time, IPv6 is very immature and IPv6 deployments >> have very high risk when compared to IPv4 for the end user. There >> are only negative business reasons for deploying IPv6 at this time >> (i.e., I can articulate many compelling business reasons to NOT >> deploy IPv6 but the only reason to deploy it in the USA today is >> government decree -- which didn't work for OSI and is unlikely to >> work alone by itself for IPv6.). There are currently no technical >> reasons for the end user to prefer or want IPv6 over IPv4. >=20 > "End users" don't want IPv4 either. They want web, mail, skype, bittorrent. >=20 > There already are large IPv6 deployments (free.fr has active IPv6 customers > in the order of a million users, if I remember the numbers right). Other > big telcos are working on rolling out IPv6 to their DSL customer base - and > as soon as that happens, you have IPv6 users. They wouldn't know, of course, > but that doesn't matter. >=20 > (Of course this is a europe-centric view. IPv6 is happening here :) ). >=20 > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > --=20 > Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 128645 >=20 > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 ********************************************** The IPv6 Portal: http://www.ipv6tf.org Bye 6Bone. Hi, IPv6 ! http://www.ipv6day.org This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 20 02:25:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 718283A6C2A for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:25:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NzMy18HiqpjB for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 721223A6C5E for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:25:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6i33-0001GW-Hx for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 09:25:17 +0000 Received: from [119.145.14.64] (helo=szxga01-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6i2r-0001FC-6b for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 09:25:11 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga01-in [172.24.2.3]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KJX001HERHQVD@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 17:25:02 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.17.1.36]) by szxga01-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KJX00LCGRHPDX@szxga01-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 17:25:02 +0800 (CST) Received: from [172.24.1.6] (Forwarded-For: [156.106.217.23]) by szxmc04-in.huawei.com (mshttpd); Wed, 20 May 2009 17:25:01 +0800 Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 17:25:01 +0800 From: JiangSheng 66104 Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn In-reply-to: <4A13B880.3050407@mesh.ad.jp> To: Seiichi Kawamura Cc: Gert Doering , "Fleischman, Eric" , "Templin, Fred L" , Re'mi Despre's , Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Russert, Steven W" , shengjiang@huawei.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A0D9@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090520062916.GN2776@Space.Net> <4A13B880.3050407@mesh.ad.jp> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > A document such as this is very helpful and I thank the authors. > One concern I have about this kind of model is the widespread > ICMP filtering in IPv4 networks. I see many ISPs that filter ICMPv6 > just as they do with IPv4 and has been causing problmes. This > is especially important in a tunnel based solution such as this. Hi, Seiichi, thanks for your reply. I understand your concern. Yes, ICMP fliter is a problem. We will take this in count later. > > As soon as a certain critical amount of networks and network > traffic > > are using IPv6, maintaining IPv4 is extra cost with doubtful > benefit. > > > > This alone is a reason to abandon IPv4. > > IMHO, maintaining a fully dual stacked > network is very expensive. How expensive? would depend > on the size of your network, or what equipment you are using, > or what kind of services you provide, but some day when > IPv6 does spread, the "extra cost" will need to be charged > to customers and that's probably when we may start to see a > motivation by the end users. > > As far as my network goes, configurations are 1.5 times > longer, maintenance time is slightly longer, and all automation > and management tools need be developed and maintained to > support both stacks. Fully agreed. Actually, I am very much concern about this. Many ISPs seem have accepted the concept of dual-stack network with really understanding the complication and costs of it. I guess we need to do something to expose this. Otherwise, the whole industry may be misleaded. Best regards, Sheng > Regards, > Seiichi Kawamura > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (MingW32) > > iD8DBQFKE7iAcrhTYfxyMkIRAku/AJ40myWRtgLVNTR+5xvwxxLkM/+mfQCffjHT > CyppSE6gXszqiEtNbOrqED8= > =CiGi > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 20 02:26:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AECB63A6C2A for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:26:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N20L-t49E5sx for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78FBF3A6C1E for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:26:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6i4Y-0001O7-2v for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 09:26:50 +0000 Received: from [119.145.14.67] (helo=szxga04-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6i4L-0001Mc-5g for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 09:26:43 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KJX0031WPPZW5@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 16:46:47 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.17.1.36]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KJX000Y6PPYKB@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 16:46:47 +0800 (CST) Received: from [172.24.1.6] (Forwarded-For: [156.106.217.23]) by szxmc04-in.huawei.com (mshttpd); Wed, 20 May 2009 16:46:46 +0800 Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 16:46:46 +0800 From: JiangSheng 66104 Subject: Re: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn In-reply-to: To: Mohacsi Janos Cc: "Fleischman, Eric" , Gert Doering , "Templin, Fred L" , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Russert, Steven W" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A0D9@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi=2C Mohacsi=2C I think we are talking about the same=3A IPv6 itself is a killer applicat= ion and will be deployed globally through there will be many years for co= -existing=2E You mentioned deploying IPv6 is easy or with little problem=2E I agree=2E= However=2C the issues I meant is problems for IPv6/IPv4 mext infrastractu= re or call dual-stack network=2E It increases the complicity a lot=2E As = Eric said=2C the DFZ Internet is currently unprepared for the BGP scaling= problems that would arise with a mixed IPv4-IPv6 infrastructure=2E Best regards=2C Sheng ----- Original Message ----- From=3A Mohacsi Janos =3Cmohacsi=40niif=2Ehu=3E Date=3A Wednesday=2C May 20=2C 2009 3=3A55 pm Subject=3A Re=3A RE=3A New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-inc= remental-cgn To=3A JiangSheng 66104 =3Cshengjiang=40huawei=2Ecom=3E Cc=3A =22Fleischman=2C Eric=22 =3Ceric=2Efleischman=40boeing=2Ecom=3E=2C = Gert Doering =3Cgert=40space=2Enet=3E=2C =22Templin=2C Fred L=22 =3CFred=2E= L=2ETemplin=40boeing=2Ecom=3E=2CR=E9mi Despr=E9s =3Cremi=2Edespres=40free= =2Efr=3E=2C Brian E Carpenter =3Cbrian=2Ee=2Ecarpenter=40gmail=2Ecom=3E=2C= v6ops=40ops=2Eietf=2Eorg=2C guoseu=40huawei=2Ecom=2C =22Russert=2C Steve= n W=22 =3Csteven=2Ew=2Erussert=40boeing=2Ecom=3E =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E On Wed=2C 20 May 2009=2C JiangSheng 66104 wrote=3A =3E = =3E =3E=3E end users view networks as a business overhead expense and are= =3E =3E=3E unlikely to needlessly spend money on networking technology =3E =3E=3E without a solid business motivation to do so=2E I went on to e= xplain =3E =3E=3E that IPng is unlikely to be deployed by us end users unless it= =3E =3E=3E becomes bundled with a business requirement=2C the most compel= ling =3E =3E=3E of which would be a new Killer Application that demanded IPv6 =3E =3E=3E capabilities in order to function=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E Fully agreed=2E This is particularly true for IPv6 deployment in = =3E last ten = =3E =3E year - failure to find a killer application=2E A right business = =3E model is = =3E =3E actually more important than technology itself=2E =3E = =3E Solid business motivation - your providers wants to increase the = =3E service = =3E provisioning fee since they have to pay for the public IP address =3E = =3E Killer aplication - Internet Protocol (with version independent = =3E applications) =3E = =3E = =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E =3E=3E Unless this changes in the future=2C IPv6 will continue to not= be =3E =3E=3E deployed by end users despite the efforts of Apple and Microso= ft =3E =3E=3E and others to ease its adoption=2E But then=2C since not all I= SPs =3E =3E=3E support IPv6 today and the DFZ Internet is currently unprepare= d =3E =3E=3E for the BGP scaling problems that would arise with a mixed IPv= 4- =3E =3E=3E IPv6 infrastructure this is probably A Good Thing=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E This is a real issue which has been ignored by IPv6 community = =3E for years=2E = =3E =3E My guess is IPv6 community does not want to discuss this because = =3E it may = =3E =3E even more block IPv6 deployment=2E However=2C it is time for us t= o = =3E face it = =3E =3E and solve it or avaoid it=2E =3E = =3E = =3E According to our findings in our IPv6 deployment=3A =3E - deploying IPv6 on backbone network is easy and relatively painless =3E - deploying IPv6 on access network is not obvious=2C but can be done = =3E in = =3E scalable way =3E - deploying IPv6 at customers is very painful - very conservative = =3E application owners are hindering of introducing IPv6 even when = =3E their = =3E application cannot support it=2E=2E=2E=2E =3E = =3E - deploying IPv6 at home has showstoppers=3A no IPv6 capable CPE = =3E under 100 = =3E USD=2E After introducing such a device - at least 10 years is = =3E necessary to = =3E the users to replace older devices=2E=2E=2E=2E=2E =3E = =3E = =3E =3E =3E =3E=3E I personally *HOPE* that IPv6 will become deployed -- after = =3E all=2C I =3E =3E=3E spent many years helping to create it=2E But my experience wit= h = =3E pre- =3E =3E=3E TCP/IP protocols (I used to be an SNA and BSC =22expert=22) is= that =3E =3E=3E even if IPv6 becomes widely deployed=2C IPv4 will endure for a= =3E =3E=3E surprisingly long time (decades)=2E =3E =3E =3E =3E Yes=2C it will be years=2E I believe the whole internet society h= as = =3E accepted = =3E =3E this and be prepared for a 25+ year co-existing period=2E =3E = =3E Agreed=2E =3E = =3E = =3E Best Regards=2C =3E Janos Mohacsi =3E From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 20 02:50:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BBFE3A6A65 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:50:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.709 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.709 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.626, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_MILLIONSOF=0.315] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QFKaKaMbTg-b for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1584E3A69EF for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 02:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6iPr-0003YX-6u for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 09:48:51 +0000 Received: from [212.27.42.3] (helo=smtp3-g21.free.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6iPe-0003Ws-Pd for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 09:48:45 +0000 Received: from smtp3-g21.free.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8683B818094; Wed, 20 May 2009 11:48:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from RD-Mac.local (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by smtp3-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 27FF48180E2; Wed, 20 May 2009 11:48:21 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4A13D1DC.1060804@free.fr> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 11:48:12 +0200 From: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mohacsi Janos CC: JiangSheng 66104 , "Fleischman, Eric" , Gert Doering , "Templin, Fred L" , Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Russert, Steven W" Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A0D9@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A13BD2D.1040901@free.fr> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Mohacsi Janos - le (m/j/a) 5/20/09 11:05 AM: > > > > On Wed, 20 May 2009, Rémi Després wrote: > >> Mohacsi Janos - le (m/j/a) 5/20/09 9:52 AM: >> >>> According to our findings in our IPv6 deployment: >>> - deploying IPv6 on backbone network is easy and relatively painless >>> - deploying IPv6 on access network is not obvious, but can be done in >>> scalable way >>> - deploying IPv6 at customers is very painful - very conservative >>> application owners are hindering of introducing IPv6 even when their >>> application cannot support it.... >>> >>> - deploying IPv6 at home has showstoppers: no IPv6 capable CPE under >>> 100 USD. After introducing such a device - at least 10 years is >>> necessary to the users to replace older devices..... >> >> I suggest a look at draft-despres-6rd-03 (soon to become an >> informational RFC). >> Thanks to the 6rd idea, Free, the second largest Internet provider in >> France with millions of residential customers, has offered IPv6 to its >> home sites at no extra charge since December 2007. >> I use IPv6 on a regular basis for Google access, GoogleMap, document >> access on IETF servers etc. >> >> In my understanding, BitTorrent on Free's network works better in IPv6 >> than in IPv4 because hosts can receive incoming calls without >> limitations caused by IPv4 NATs. > > > I very much aware 6rd solution - we discussed it on the IETF 72. The > most important drawbacks: > - requires providider control over the CPE devices. True (but more a provisional limitation than drawback. > It could be improved the 6rd prefix made available via some method (.e.g > DHCP) for generic CPE devices + persuade CPE vendors to implement this > solution Absolutely. I participated in private discussions in this direction in San Francisco in March. As far as I know, Mark Townsley is planning to submit a draft to this effect. Best regards, RD From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 20 06:21:46 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 593A83A691D for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 06:21:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.779 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.779 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-2.284, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id redPu7hljP2d for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 06:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B25D63A6D05 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 06:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6lg5-000Lxd-95 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 13:17:49 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.70] (helo=sj-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6lfr-000Lw7-UG for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 13:17:42 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,221,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="188029471" Received: from ams-dkim-2.cisco.com ([144.254.224.139]) by sj-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 May 2009 13:17:31 +0000 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-2.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n4KDHTQc012952; Wed, 20 May 2009 15:17:29 +0200 Received: from xbh-ams-331.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-331.cisco.com [144.254.231.71]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n4KDHTb0023077; Wed, 20 May 2009 13:17:29 GMT Received: from xfe-ams-332.cisco.com ([144.254.231.73]) by xbh-ams-331.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 20 May 2009 15:17:29 +0200 Received: from Townsley-MacBook.local ([10.61.85.88]) by xfe-ams-332.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 20 May 2009 15:17:29 +0200 Message-ID: <4A1402E7.60709@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 15:17:27 +0200 From: Mark Townsley User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Templin, Fred L" CC: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , Sheng Jiang , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com, "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn References: <20090508034237.ABE583A69FE@core3.amsl.com> <001d01c9d42d$1cf4c570$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F06D5B@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A12796B.6030609@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43987@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43987@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 May 2009 13:17:29.0169 (UTC) FILETIME=[53664410:01C9D94D] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=6410; t=1242825449; x=1243689449; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim2001; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=townsley@cisco.com; z=From:=20Mark=20Townsley=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20New=20Version=20Notification=20for=20dr aft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn |Sender:=20; bh=VvTupKda2AYe7f9GLPVFnoNJ9ogG5Xbu6wAsk/wKgtY=; b=JK1wblXIPYg54DR+OICnHh+d5BSq8MXFwV3ZwdMDd88ZojD7FR7lJKnDmG J+H1W0zLw0bOZ3QXxh62ueok0BP8uyettd9+pBicmTBeb5Y/Rkbe6KEvfCbT kUY/DMmxdL; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-2; header.From=townsley@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim2001 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Indeed, 6rd is targeted to ISPs who have the ability to specify the residential gateway's functionality. This certainly does not apply to all ISP offerings, but it does apply to quite a few. As Remi points out, he and I (and others) have been working together recently on a new 6rd spec which includes some of the things discussed here (DHCP options, etc). Current plan is to have that out in the next week or so. - Mark Templin, Fred L wrote: > Remi, > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Rémi Després [mailto:remi.despres@free.fr] >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:19 AM >> To: Templin, Fred L >> Cc: Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com; Fleischman, >> Eric; Russert, Steven W >> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >> >> Templin, Fred L - le (m/j/a) 5/14/09 5:17 PM: >> >>> Dear authors, >>> >>> The document is clean and concise, which is appreciated. >>> However, section 3.2 seems to be showing preference >>> toward a particular tunneling technology, and I'd like >>> to understand that better. >>> >> As explained in the 6rd draft (soon to become an RFC), 6rd solves the >> major problem of 6to4: the lack of guarantee that paths exist between >> all IPv6 sites and all 6to4 sites, and that these paths have ISP >> controlled QoS. >> > > Yes, so is VET soon to become an RFC. But, 6rd is not solving a > 6to4 problem with its open relays; it is solving an intra-site > problem with ordinary IPv6 routers just like VET. > > >>> To understand this, we must first observe that the 6rd >>> approach relies on anycast for CPE router accessing of >>> IPv6 routers within the IPv4 ISP network. >>> >> The important point is that the 6rd-relay address MAY be anycast. If >> there is only one relay at this address, there is no difference with an >> anycast address. >> Reasons for permitting anycast are SCALABILITY and AVAILABILITY of the >> solution: >> > > Just for the record, ISATAP/VET can use anycast just > the same as for 6rd but chose not to specify it. This > choice was based on deliberations between authors and > working group alike that identified the stated problems. > > >> - if available relays seem to be soon insufficient for the traffic, just >> add one more, at the same anycast address. While ISATAP is intra-site, >> 6rd relays, like those of 6to4 which also use an anycast address, have >> to support all the IPv6 traffic of an ISP that uses 6rd. >> - if a 6rd-relay fails, the traffic goes to another one. >> > > No; 6rd is intra-site. The site is the ISP operator's > network. > > >> The idea of >> >>> anycast was entertained and abandoned by the ISATAP >>> team in the 2001/2002 timeframe when ISATAP was still >>> being developed in the ngtrans working group. This came >>> after much discussion among authors and guidance from >>> the working group. Reasons include: >>> >>> 1) if the tunnel fragments, fragments of the same packet >>> may go to different anycast-addressed routers. >>> >> If the ISP supports an IPv4 MTU long enough for IPv6 packets of 1280 >> octets (as it should) and discards longer ones, no fragmentation is ever >> needed. >> This is common with 6to4, which uses anycast addressing for its relays. >> > > 1280 is an unsatisfactory MTU for customer devices that > would prefer to use 1500. The CPE is an in-the-network > tunnel endpoint such that customer devices on a 1500 > segment would be constantly inconvenienced with ICMP > PTB messages were the CPE to deploy with only 1280. > > But, if you want to push the CPE tunnel endpoint to > 1500, you have to allow for the possibility of > fragmentation. VET and SEAL solve this problem. > > >>> 2) with anycast, there is no opportunity for default >>> router selection (when there are multiple) >>> >> Yes. But what is the practical problem? >> > > If there are multiple PE routers in the ISP network, > the CPE should have the ability to distinguish them > and choose between them - just as for any link where > there may be multiple routers. > > >>> 3) with anycast, there is no opportunity for traffic >>> engineering >>> >> Different source zones may be oriented toward different relays, or relay >> farms with internal load balancers. >> > > Traffic engineering is the ability for a CPE router > to direct some traffic through PE router A and other > traffic through PE router B. With anycast, the CPE > router can't discern A from B. > > >> All the complexity of deciding which customer sites should receive which >> unicast addresses is avoided. >> > > I don't see anything having to do with complexity, really. > And, it's the very same consideration as to which customers > should receive which DNS suffixes. > > >>> 4) with anycast, IPv6 neighbor discovery over the >>> tunnel may yield unpredictable results >>> >> Neighbor discovery doesn't apply more over 6rd tunnels than it does on >> 6to4 tunnels. >> > > Neighbor discovery is useful in many ways. NUD, default > router preferences and more specific routes, SEND, and > many more. 6rd is not really comparable to 6to4, however; > 6rd is intra-site just as ISATAP/VET. > > >>> 5) with anycast, there is need for a manual provisioning >>> of IPv6 prefixes and IPv4 anycast address on the CPE >>> router. >>> >> As explained in the draft, Free deployed 6rd with their 6rd parameters >> included in their downloaded CPE software (IPv6 prefix and relay anycast >> address). >> > > This is unnecessarily marrying the CPE devices to the > ISP in a way that CPE vendors might not appreciate. It > also makes renumbering and discovery of new prefixes > quite cumbersome. > > >> For independently supplied CPEs , tools to convey these parameters have >> to be specified. As far as I know, Mark Townsley is working on a >> proposal for this. >> > > If Mark Townsley is working on a proposal for this, he is > re-inventing ISATAP PRL discovery. See also my proposal > for stateless DHCP prefix delegation for the 6rd prefix. > > Fred > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > >> Regards, >> >> RD >> > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 20 06:38:39 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7D363A6B62 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 06:38:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.111 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.111 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.616, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 39jx2nTva9R0 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 06:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521A73A691D for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 06:38:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6lzs-000OBl-84 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 13:38:16 +0000 Received: from [130.76.96.56] (helo=stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6lzf-000OAa-Cg for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 13:38:09 +0000 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (blv-av-01.boeing.com [130.247.48.231]) by stl-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id n4KDbjAl014026 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 20 May 2009 08:37:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4KDbj30014600; Wed, 20 May 2009 06:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4KDbiUV014567; Wed, 20 May 2009 06:37:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 20 May 2009 06:37:41 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 06:37:41 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43F87@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <4A1402E7.60709@cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Thread-Index: AcnZTYZuu71fiuwfTV6anESeNAsvNAAACxOw References: <20090508034237.ABE583A69FE@core3.amsl.com> <001d01c9d42d$1cf4c570$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F06D5B@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A12796B.6030609@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43987@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A1402E7.60709@cisco.com> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Mark Townsley" Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , "Sheng Jiang" , , , , "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 May 2009 13:37:41.0756 (UTC) FILETIME=[26285BC0:01C9D950] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Mark, > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Townsley [mailto:townsley@cisco.com] > Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 6:17 AM > To: Templin, Fred L > Cc: R=E9mi Despr=E9s; Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; = guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com; > Fleischman, Eric; Russert, Steven W > Subject: Re: New Version Notification for = draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >=20 >=20 > Indeed, 6rd is targeted to ISPs who have the ability to specify the > residential gateway's functionality. This certainly does not apply to > all ISP offerings, but it does apply to quite a few. >=20 > As Remi points out, he and I (and others) have been working together > recently on a new 6rd spec which includes some of the things discussed > here (DHCP options, etc). Current plan is to have that out in the next > week or so. I must apologize to you and to the list for inappropriate non-technical content directed toward you in an earlier message. That said, I believe the following technical content merits consideration. For the 6rd prefix discovery, what you are suggesting is simply a stateless IPv6 prefix delegation. It is stateless in the sense that the customer need only discover the operator's /32 or larger prefix, and then the customer can self-assign its own IPv6 prefix based on its IPv4 address. This can be done as a DHCPv4 option, or if link-local IPv6 is available it can also be done as a DHCPv6 option. But, stateless IPv6 prefix delegation is really what it is. For 6rd router unicast/anycast address discovery, that function would be identical to the potential router list (PRL) discovery mechanisms of ISATAP/VET. Indeed, 6rd is nothing more than ISATAP/VET with many of the features removed. A worthwhile idea to consider is to combine the 6rd stateless prefix delegation (which AFAICT is its primary contribution) with the already defined mechanisms of ISATAP and VET. Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com >=20 > - Mark >=20 > Templin, Fred L wrote: > > Remi, > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: R=E9mi Despr=E9s [mailto:remi.despres@free.fr] > >> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:19 AM > >> To: Templin, Fred L > >> Cc: Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; = brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com; Fleischman, > >> Eric; Russert, Steven W > >> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for = draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn > >> > >> Templin, Fred L - le (m/j/a) 5/14/09 5:17 PM: > >> > >>> Dear authors, > >>> > >>> The document is clean and concise, which is appreciated. > >>> However, section 3.2 seems to be showing preference > >>> toward a particular tunneling technology, and I'd like > >>> to understand that better. > >>> > >> As explained in the 6rd draft (soon to become an RFC), 6rd solves = the > >> major problem of 6to4: the lack of guarantee that paths exist = between > >> all IPv6 sites and all 6to4 sites, and that these paths have ISP > >> controlled QoS. > >> > > > > Yes, so is VET soon to become an RFC. But, 6rd is not solving a > > 6to4 problem with its open relays; it is solving an intra-site > > problem with ordinary IPv6 routers just like VET. > > > > > >>> To understand this, we must first observe that the 6rd > >>> approach relies on anycast for CPE router accessing of > >>> IPv6 routers within the IPv4 ISP network. > >>> > >> The important point is that the 6rd-relay address MAY be anycast. = If > >> there is only one relay at this address, there is no difference = with an > >> anycast address. > >> Reasons for permitting anycast are SCALABILITY and AVAILABILITY of = the > >> solution: > >> > > > > Just for the record, ISATAP/VET can use anycast just > > the same as for 6rd but chose not to specify it. This > > choice was based on deliberations between authors and > > working group alike that identified the stated problems. > > > > > >> - if available relays seem to be soon insufficient for the traffic, = just > >> add one more, at the same anycast address. While ISATAP is = intra-site, > >> 6rd relays, like those of 6to4 which also use an anycast address, = have > >> to support all the IPv6 traffic of an ISP that uses 6rd. > >> - if a 6rd-relay fails, the traffic goes to another one. > >> > > > > No; 6rd is intra-site. The site is the ISP operator's > > network. > > > > > >> The idea of > >> > >>> anycast was entertained and abandoned by the ISATAP > >>> team in the 2001/2002 timeframe when ISATAP was still > >>> being developed in the ngtrans working group. This came > >>> after much discussion among authors and guidance from > >>> the working group. Reasons include: > >>> > >>> 1) if the tunnel fragments, fragments of the same packet > >>> may go to different anycast-addressed routers. > >>> > >> If the ISP supports an IPv4 MTU long enough for IPv6 packets of = 1280 > >> octets (as it should) and discards longer ones, no fragmentation is = ever > >> needed. > >> This is common with 6to4, which uses anycast addressing for its = relays. > >> > > > > 1280 is an unsatisfactory MTU for customer devices that > > would prefer to use 1500. The CPE is an in-the-network > > tunnel endpoint such that customer devices on a 1500 > > segment would be constantly inconvenienced with ICMP > > PTB messages were the CPE to deploy with only 1280. > > > > But, if you want to push the CPE tunnel endpoint to > > 1500, you have to allow for the possibility of > > fragmentation. VET and SEAL solve this problem. > > > > > >>> 2) with anycast, there is no opportunity for default > >>> router selection (when there are multiple) > >>> > >> Yes. But what is the practical problem? > >> > > > > If there are multiple PE routers in the ISP network, > > the CPE should have the ability to distinguish them > > and choose between them - just as for any link where > > there may be multiple routers. > > > > > >>> 3) with anycast, there is no opportunity for traffic > >>> engineering > >>> > >> Different source zones may be oriented toward different relays, or = relay > >> farms with internal load balancers. > >> > > > > Traffic engineering is the ability for a CPE router > > to direct some traffic through PE router A and other > > traffic through PE router B. With anycast, the CPE > > router can't discern A from B. > > > > > >> All the complexity of deciding which customer sites should receive = which > >> unicast addresses is avoided. > >> > > > > I don't see anything having to do with complexity, really. > > And, it's the very same consideration as to which customers > > should receive which DNS suffixes. > > > > > >>> 4) with anycast, IPv6 neighbor discovery over the > >>> tunnel may yield unpredictable results > >>> > >> Neighbor discovery doesn't apply more over 6rd tunnels than it does = on > >> 6to4 tunnels. > >> > > > > Neighbor discovery is useful in many ways. NUD, default > > router preferences and more specific routes, SEND, and > > many more. 6rd is not really comparable to 6to4, however; > > 6rd is intra-site just as ISATAP/VET. > > > > > >>> 5) with anycast, there is need for a manual provisioning > >>> of IPv6 prefixes and IPv4 anycast address on the CPE > >>> router. > >>> > >> As explained in the draft, Free deployed 6rd with their 6rd = parameters > >> included in their downloaded CPE software (IPv6 prefix and relay = anycast > >> address). > >> > > > > This is unnecessarily marrying the CPE devices to the > > ISP in a way that CPE vendors might not appreciate. It > > also makes renumbering and discovery of new prefixes > > quite cumbersome. > > > > > >> For independently supplied CPEs , tools to convey these parameters = have > >> to be specified. As far as I know, Mark Townsley is working on a > >> proposal for this. > >> > > > > If Mark Townsley is working on a proposal for this, he is > > re-inventing ISATAP PRL discovery. See also my proposal > > for stateless DHCP prefix delegation for the 6rd prefix. > > > > Fred > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > > > > >> Regards, > >> > >> RD > >> > > > > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 20 07:07:54 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E2733A6C30 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 07:07:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.607, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LLD6UxalKttV for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 07:07:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7EE53A6C49 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 07:07:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6mRf-0001DI-MO for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 14:06:59 +0000 Received: from [130.76.96.56] (helo=stl-smtpout-01.boeing.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6mRT-0001CE-65 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 14:06:53 +0000 Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (blv-av-01.boeing.com [130.247.48.231]) by stl-smtpout-01.ns.cs.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/8.14.0/SMTPOUT) with ESMTP id n4KE6ZFC029400 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 20 May 2009 09:06:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from blv-av-01.boeing.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/DOWNSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4KE6ZlP020390; Wed, 20 May 2009 07:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-nwbh-11.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.55.84]) by blv-av-01.boeing.com (8.14.0/8.14.0/UPSTREAM_RELAY) with ESMTP id n4KE6YhM020365; Wed, 20 May 2009 07:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com ([130.247.54.35]) by XCH-NWBH-11.nw.nos.boeing.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Wed, 20 May 2009 07:06:30 -0700 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 07:06:29 -0700 Message-ID: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43FB7@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <20090520062916.GN2776@Space.Net> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn Thread-Index: AcnZFE7jp5WBXcOVQgqyOXhs+seT3QAOIYtA References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A0D9@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090520062916.GN2776@Space.Net> From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Gert Doering" , "Fleischman, Eric" Cc: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , "Sheng Jiang" , "Brian E Carpenter" , , , "Russert, Steven W" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 May 2009 14:06:30.0316 (UTC) FILETIME=[2C75AEC0:01C9D954] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: The two technical points to address are: - we will want to get IPv6 all the way to the end users - what is the operator's cost for maintaing both IPv4 and IPv6 VET (vis-=E0-vis RANGER) is all about getting IPv6 all the way to the end users. When operators deploy IPv6 border gateways in their networks, and when customers convert their CPE devices to IPv6, the IPv6 service will reach all the way in to the end users. The operator can get its network up to IPv6 by deploying only a few IPv6-capable border gateways and leave the rest of its IPv4 network intact. This would be no different than having the operator deploy a few extra servers. Indeed, there would actually be a large cost with no clear benefits for the operator to decommission its already existing IPv4 deployment. VET/ISATAP is a deploy-once-and-be-done solution. VET/ISATAP/6rd would be too, albeit with an IPv6 prefix that exposes the end user's IPv4 address (which may be private) to the outside world. VET/ISATAP/SEAL would further solve the problem of ICMP filtering and assure a robust path MTU to the end user. Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > -----Original Message----- > From: Gert Doering [mailto:gert@space.net] > Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 11:29 PM > To: Fleischman, Eric > Cc: Gert Doering; Templin, Fred L; R=E9mi Despr=E9s; Sheng Jiang; = Brian E Carpenter; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; > guoseu@huawei.com; Russert, Steven W > Subject: Re: New Version Notification for = draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 03:44:30PM -0700, Fleischman, Eric wrote: > > Your position below is very familiar to me since it was the same > > position that the UN and world's governments took about OSI. By > > contrast, I state that there is a strong motivation by the end user > > to use IPv4 indefinitely until a compelling reason to migrate to > > IPv6 arises. >=20 > As soon as a certain critical amount of networks and network traffic > are using IPv6, maintaining IPv4 is extra cost with doubtful benefit. >=20 > This alone is a reason to abandon IPv4. >=20 > I'm not talking about "this year", but about a few years in the = future. >=20 >=20 > > At this current time, IPv6 is very immature and IPv6 deployments > > have very high risk when compared to IPv4 for the end user. There > > are only negative business reasons for deploying IPv6 at this time > > (i.e., I can articulate many compelling business reasons to NOT > > deploy IPv6 but the only reason to deploy it in the USA today is > > government decree -- which didn't work for OSI and is unlikely to > > work alone by itself for IPv6.). There are currently no technical > > reasons for the end user to prefer or want IPv6 over IPv4. >=20 > "End users" don't want IPv4 either. They want web, mail, skype, = bittorrent. >=20 > There already are large IPv6 deployments (free.fr has active IPv6 = customers > in the order of a million users, if I remember the numbers right). = Other > big telcos are working on rolling out IPv6 to their DSL customer base = - and > as soon as that happens, you have IPv6 users. They wouldn't know, of = course, > but that doesn't matter. >=20 > (Of course this is a europe-centric view. IPv6 is happening here :) = ). >=20 > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 128645 >=20 > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. = Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 20 07:29:05 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 703B13A6C12 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 07:29:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.548 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.548 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.051, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ywh7K5qCVtk3 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 07:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 937353A6C3C for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 07:29:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6mk5-0003Ex-E7 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 14:26:01 +0000 Received: from [2001:738:0:411::241] (helo=mail.ki.iif.hu) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6mjr-0003DA-8T for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 14:25:54 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9662185139; Wed, 20 May 2009 16:25:44 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: by amavisd-new at mignon.ki.iif.hu Received: from mail.ki.iif.hu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mignon.ki.iif.hu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with LMTP id JT4UXSQWr2VZ; Wed, 20 May 2009 16:25:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix, from userid 9002) id 9FD1085126; Wed, 20 May 2009 16:25:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.ki.iif.hu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AFFC850F3; Wed, 20 May 2009 16:25:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 16:25:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Mohacsi Janos X-X-Sender: mohacsi@mignon.ki.iif.hu To: JiangSheng 66104 cc: Seiichi Kawamura , Gert Doering , "Fleischman, Eric" , "Templin, Fred L" , Re'mi Despre's , Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, "Russert, Steven W" Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A0D9@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090520062916.GN2776@Space.Net> <4A13B880.3050407@mesh.ad.jp> User-Agent: Alpine 2.00 (BSF 1167 2008-08-23) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Janos Mohacsi Network Engineer, Research Associate, Head of Network Planning and Projects NIIF/HUNGARNET, HUNGARY Key 70EF9882: DEC2 C685 1ED4 C95A 145F 4300 6F64 7B00 70EF 9882 On Wed, 20 May 2009, JiangSheng 66104 wrote: >> A document such as this is very helpful and I thank the authors. >> One concern I have about this kind of model is the widespread >> ICMP filtering in IPv4 networks. I see many ISPs that filter ICMPv6 >> just as they do with IPv4 and has been causing problmes. This >> is especially important in a tunnel based solution such as this. > > Hi, Seiichi, thanks for your reply. I understand your concern. Yes, ICMP > fliter is a problem. We will take this in count later. They should have a look at this draft: http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4890 Best Regards, Janos Mohacsi From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 20 07:37:58 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A50428C305 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 07:37:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.652 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.652 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.157, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8DZnJYK3h0cG for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 07:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9B0C83A69B5 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 07:37:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6mti-0004L3-8Z for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 20 May 2009 14:35:58 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M6mtU-0004Jr-GJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 20 May 2009 14:35:51 +0000 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.41,221,1241395200"; d="scan'208";a="40992601" Received: from ams-dkim-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.138]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 20 May 2009 14:35:42 +0000 Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com (ams-core-1.cisco.com [144.254.224.150]) by ams-dkim-1.cisco.com (8.12.11/8.12.11) with ESMTP id n4KEZgC9032319; Wed, 20 May 2009 16:35:42 +0200 Received: from xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com (xbh-ams-332.cisco.com [144.254.231.87]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n4KEZg1I025701; Wed, 20 May 2009 14:35:42 GMT Received: from xfe-ams-332.cisco.com ([144.254.231.73]) by xbh-ams-332.emea.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 20 May 2009 16:35:42 +0200 Received: from Townsley-MacBook.local ([10.61.87.245]) by xfe-ams-332.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.1830); Wed, 20 May 2009 16:35:41 +0200 Message-ID: <4A14153C.8090209@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 16:35:40 +0200 From: Mark Townsley User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.21 (Macintosh/20090302) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Templin, Fred L" CC: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , Sheng Jiang , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, guoseu@huawei.com, brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com, "Fleischman, Eric" , "Russert, Steven W" Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn References: <20090508034237.ABE583A69FE@core3.amsl.com> <001d01c9d42d$1cf4c570$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F06D5B@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A12796B.6030609@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43987@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A1402E7.60709@cisco.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43F87@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43F87@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 20 May 2009 14:35:41.0983 (UTC) FILETIME=[4088DAF0:01C9D958] DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; l=9405; t=1242830142; x=1243694142; c=relaxed/simple; s=amsdkim1002; h=Content-Type:From:Subject:Content-Transfer-Encoding:MIME-Version; d=cisco.com; i=townsley@cisco.com; z=From:=20Mark=20Townsley=20 |Subject:=20Re=3A=20New=20Version=20Notification=20for=20dr aft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn |Sender:=20; bh=2uIFWyu+PhcE91wTZ7WYbEJl1hBEtIKJhvV4/yPu5uE=; b=SoUFYvKEpKvnN88ZCBU2tGSR8XX6Ha3vzTq4hUJ2pyts62Tf+IeCjsc8B5 PbV14kIkc736LY/LrmVo4ZaK9fFHCwGnuB/mGe4i9xEZ85oN0Hqs1s/Yk7Lf vRGnFLPWnc; Authentication-Results: ams-dkim-1; header.From=townsley@cisco.com; dkim=pass ( sig from cisco.com/amsdkim1002 verified; ); Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Templin, Fred L wrote: > Mark, > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark Townsley [mailto:townsley@cisco.com] >> Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 6:17 AM >> To: Templin, Fred L >> Cc: Rémi Després; Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com; >> Fleischman, Eric; Russert, Steven W >> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >> >> >> Indeed, 6rd is targeted to ISPs who have the ability to specify the >> residential gateway's functionality. This certainly does not apply to >> all ISP offerings, but it does apply to quite a few. >> >> As Remi points out, he and I (and others) have been working together >> recently on a new 6rd spec which includes some of the things discussed >> here (DHCP options, etc). Current plan is to have that out in the next >> week or so. >> > > I must apologize to you and to the list for inappropriate > non-technical content directed toward you in an earlier > message. That said, I believe the following technical > content merits consideration. > No problem. > For the 6rd prefix discovery, what you are suggesting is > simply a stateless IPv6 prefix delegation. It is stateless > in the sense that the customer need only discover the > operator's /32 or larger prefix, and then the customer > can self-assign its own IPv6 prefix based on its IPv4 > address. Yes, that's a significant part of it. > This can be done as a DHCPv4 option, Yes. > or if > link-local IPv6 is available it can also be done as a > DHCPv6 option. But, stateless IPv6 prefix delegation > is really what it is > The transition mechanism is targeted to provide IPv6 to a residential internet user over an access network that is currently only able to provide IPv4. If the RG has any IPv6 address on its SP-facing interface, and DHCPv6 is deployed in the SP network, then the SP is probably well on its way to not needing 6rd anyway. > For 6rd router unicast/anycast address discovery, that > function would be identical to the potential router list > (PRL) discovery mechanisms of ISATAP/VET. Indeed, 6rd is > nothing more than ISATAP/VET with many of the features > removed. Everything under the sun has already been invented. I think of 6rd as more a modification to 6to4, but I suppose it depends on your perspective. > A worthwhile idea to consider is to combine > the 6rd stateless prefix delegation (which AFAICT is > its primary contribution) with the already defined > mechanisms of ISATAP and VET. > On the face of it, I fail to see what that would provide given what 6rd sets out to achieve. Perhaps we can better have this discussion once the -00 is available though. - Mark > Fred > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > >> - Mark >> >> Templin, Fred L wrote: >> >>> Remi, >>> >>> >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Rémi Després [mailto:remi.despres@free.fr] >>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 19, 2009 2:19 AM >>>> To: Templin, Fred L >>>> Cc: Sheng Jiang; v6ops@ops.ietf.org; guoseu@huawei.com; brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com; Fleischman, >>>> Eric; Russert, Steven W >>>> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn >>>> >>>> Templin, Fred L - le (m/j/a) 5/14/09 5:17 PM: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Dear authors, >>>>> >>>>> The document is clean and concise, which is appreciated. >>>>> However, section 3.2 seems to be showing preference >>>>> toward a particular tunneling technology, and I'd like >>>>> to understand that better. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> As explained in the 6rd draft (soon to become an RFC), 6rd solves the >>>> major problem of 6to4: the lack of guarantee that paths exist between >>>> all IPv6 sites and all 6to4 sites, and that these paths have ISP >>>> controlled QoS. >>>> >>>> >>> Yes, so is VET soon to become an RFC. But, 6rd is not solving a >>> 6to4 problem with its open relays; it is solving an intra-site >>> problem with ordinary IPv6 routers just like VET. >>> >>> >>> >>>>> To understand this, we must first observe that the 6rd >>>>> approach relies on anycast for CPE router accessing of >>>>> IPv6 routers within the IPv4 ISP network. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> The important point is that the 6rd-relay address MAY be anycast. If >>>> there is only one relay at this address, there is no difference with an >>>> anycast address. >>>> Reasons for permitting anycast are SCALABILITY and AVAILABILITY of the >>>> solution: >>>> >>>> >>> Just for the record, ISATAP/VET can use anycast just >>> the same as for 6rd but chose not to specify it. This >>> choice was based on deliberations between authors and >>> working group alike that identified the stated problems. >>> >>> >>> >>>> - if available relays seem to be soon insufficient for the traffic, just >>>> add one more, at the same anycast address. While ISATAP is intra-site, >>>> 6rd relays, like those of 6to4 which also use an anycast address, have >>>> to support all the IPv6 traffic of an ISP that uses 6rd. >>>> - if a 6rd-relay fails, the traffic goes to another one. >>>> >>>> >>> No; 6rd is intra-site. The site is the ISP operator's >>> network. >>> >>> >>> >>>> The idea of >>>> >>>> >>>>> anycast was entertained and abandoned by the ISATAP >>>>> team in the 2001/2002 timeframe when ISATAP was still >>>>> being developed in the ngtrans working group. This came >>>>> after much discussion among authors and guidance from >>>>> the working group. Reasons include: >>>>> >>>>> 1) if the tunnel fragments, fragments of the same packet >>>>> may go to different anycast-addressed routers. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> If the ISP supports an IPv4 MTU long enough for IPv6 packets of 1280 >>>> octets (as it should) and discards longer ones, no fragmentation is ever >>>> needed. >>>> This is common with 6to4, which uses anycast addressing for its relays. >>>> >>>> >>> 1280 is an unsatisfactory MTU for customer devices that >>> would prefer to use 1500. The CPE is an in-the-network >>> tunnel endpoint such that customer devices on a 1500 >>> segment would be constantly inconvenienced with ICMP >>> PTB messages were the CPE to deploy with only 1280. >>> >>> But, if you want to push the CPE tunnel endpoint to >>> 1500, you have to allow for the possibility of >>> fragmentation. VET and SEAL solve this problem. >>> >>> >>> >>>>> 2) with anycast, there is no opportunity for default >>>>> router selection (when there are multiple) >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Yes. But what is the practical problem? >>>> >>>> >>> If there are multiple PE routers in the ISP network, >>> the CPE should have the ability to distinguish them >>> and choose between them - just as for any link where >>> there may be multiple routers. >>> >>> >>> >>>>> 3) with anycast, there is no opportunity for traffic >>>>> engineering >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Different source zones may be oriented toward different relays, or relay >>>> farms with internal load balancers. >>>> >>>> >>> Traffic engineering is the ability for a CPE router >>> to direct some traffic through PE router A and other >>> traffic through PE router B. With anycast, the CPE >>> router can't discern A from B. >>> >>> >>> >>>> All the complexity of deciding which customer sites should receive which >>>> unicast addresses is avoided. >>>> >>>> >>> I don't see anything having to do with complexity, really. >>> And, it's the very same consideration as to which customers >>> should receive which DNS suffixes. >>> >>> >>> >>>>> 4) with anycast, IPv6 neighbor discovery over the >>>>> tunnel may yield unpredictable results >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Neighbor discovery doesn't apply more over 6rd tunnels than it does on >>>> 6to4 tunnels. >>>> >>>> >>> Neighbor discovery is useful in many ways. NUD, default >>> router preferences and more specific routes, SEND, and >>> many more. 6rd is not really comparable to 6to4, however; >>> 6rd is intra-site just as ISATAP/VET. >>> >>> >>> >>>>> 5) with anycast, there is need for a manual provisioning >>>>> of IPv6 prefixes and IPv4 anycast address on the CPE >>>>> router. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> As explained in the draft, Free deployed 6rd with their 6rd parameters >>>> included in their downloaded CPE software (IPv6 prefix and relay anycast >>>> address). >>>> >>>> >>> This is unnecessarily marrying the CPE devices to the >>> ISP in a way that CPE vendors might not appreciate. It >>> also makes renumbering and discovery of new prefixes >>> quite cumbersome. >>> >>> >>> >>>> For independently supplied CPEs , tools to convey these parameters have >>>> to be specified. As far as I know, Mark Townsley is working on a >>>> proposal for this. >>>> >>>> >>> If Mark Townsley is working on a proposal for this, he is >>> re-inventing ISATAP PRL discovery. See also my proposal >>> for stateless DHCP prefix delegation for the 6rd prefix. >>> >>> Fred >>> fred.l.templin@boeing.com >>> >>> >>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> RD >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > > > From swivels1@mmwnet.net Wed May 20 23:36:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A1E3A69B3; Wed, 20 May 2009 23:36:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.865 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.865 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DIET_1=0.083, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, GB_PHARMACY=1, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HS_INDEX_PARAM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNSUB09=1.253, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZQdyqWmpR+fd; Wed, 20 May 2009 23:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a83-132-48-229.cpe.netcabo.pt (a83-132-48-229.cpe.netcabo.pt [83.132.48.229]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A173A6873; Wed, 20 May 2009 23:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000d01c9d9de$ab05f030$6400a8c0@swivels1> From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: Acai Slim, you will love your new life. Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 07:37:53 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C9D9DE.AB05F030" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C9D9DE.AB05F030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 Doctor=20 Swanson=20 Pharmacy newsletter.Issue #60920 May=20 2009 =20 Losing weight is an amazing feeling.More=20 Info =20 To=20 unsubscribe, click=20 here.To=20 view our privacy policy, click=20 here.Copyright=20 ? 2009 Dr's Bill Capell. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C9D9DE.AB05F030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C9D9DE.AB05F030-- From rtgwg-bounces@ietf.org Wed May 20 23:36:27 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F3E53A6873 for ; Wed, 20 May 2009 23:36:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The results of your email commands From: rtgwg-bounces@ietf.org To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0053862764==" Message-ID: Date: Wed, 20 May 2009 23:36:27 -0700 Precedence: bulk X-BeenThere: rtgwg@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 List-Id: X-List-Administrivia: yes Sender: rtgwg-bounces@ietf.org Errors-To: rtgwg-bounces@ietf.org --===============0053862764== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The results of your email command are provided below. Attached is your original message. - Results: Ignoring non-text/plain MIME parts - Unprocessed: =20 Doctor=20 Swanson=20 Pharmacy newsletter.Issue #60920 May=20 2009 =20 Losing weight is an amazing feeling.More=20 Info =20 To=20 unsubscribe, click=20 here.To=20 view our privacy policy, click=20 here.Copyright=20 ? 2009 Dr's Bill Capell. - Done. --===============0053862764== Content-Type: message/rfc822 MIME-Version: 1.0 Return-Path: X-Original-To: rtgwg-request@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: rtgwg-request@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22A1E3A69B3; Wed, 20 May 2009 23:36:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.865 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.865 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DIET_1=0.083, DOS_OE_TO_MX=2.75, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, GB_PHARMACY=1, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HS_INDEX_PARAM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNSUB09=1.253, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZQdyqWmpR+fd; Wed, 20 May 2009 23:36:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from a83-132-48-229.cpe.netcabo.pt (a83-132-48-229.cpe.netcabo.pt [83.132.48.229]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A173A6873; Wed, 20 May 2009 23:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <000d01c9d9de$ab05f030$6400a8c0@swivels1> From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: Subject: Acai Slim, you will love your new life. Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 07:37:53 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0007_01C9D9DE.AB05F030" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.2180 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.2180 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C9D9DE.AB05F030 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =20 =20 Doctor=20 Swanson=20 Pharmacy newsletter.Issue #60920 May=20 2009 =20 Losing weight is an amazing feeling.More=20 Info =20 To=20 unsubscribe, click=20 here.To=20 view our privacy policy, click=20 here.Copyright=20 ? 2009 Dr's Bill Capell. ------=_NextPart_000_0007_01C9D9DE.AB05F030 Content-Type: text/html; charset="Windows-1252" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu May 21 11:13:26 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 687E83A6B4C for ; Thu, 21 May 2009 11:13:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.324 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.324 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.171, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VgVy-oNs0Wpr for ; Thu, 21 May 2009 11:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1AC9E3A6A33 for ; Thu, 21 May 2009 11:13:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M7ChT-000Mcu-Ry for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 21 May 2009 18:09:03 +0000 Received: from [119.145.14.66] (helo=szxga03-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M7ChE-000Mbo-Go for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 21 May 2009 18:08:56 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga03-in [172.24.2.9]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KK00052NAEMIF@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 22 May 2009 02:08:46 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.17.1.36]) by szxga03-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0KK000349AEMP3@szxga03-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 22 May 2009 02:08:46 +0800 (CST) Received: from [172.24.1.6] (Forwarded-For: [213.3.13.134]) by szxmc04-in.huawei.com (mshttpd); Fri, 22 May 2009 02:08:46 +0800 Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 02:08:46 +0800 From: JiangSheng 66104 Subject: Re: RE: RE: New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-incremental-cgn In-reply-to: <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A4B2@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> To: "Fleischman, Eric" Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, shengjiang@huawei.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: iPlanet Messenger Express 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-language: en Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-disposition: inline X-Accept-Language: en References: <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0719F@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <000001c9d502$9843c980$5b0c6f0a@china.huawei.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F0726E@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F075C2@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <4A127FA0.6050603@free.fr> <39C363776A4E8C4A94691D2BD9D1C9A105F43989@XCH-NW-7V2.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20090519192430.GK2776@Space.Net> <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A0D9@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> <474EEBD229DF754FB83D256004D021080BC9A4B2@XCH-NW-6V1.nw.nos.boeing.com> Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi=2C Fleischman=2C We all work hard to contribute the fast change Internet world=2E Althroug= h we may have different opinions from time to time=2C our ultimate goals = are the same=2C I believe=2E I will read and comment on RANGER=2E Best regards=2C Sheng ----- Original Message ----- From=3A =22Fleischman=2C Eric=22 =3Ceric=2Efleischman=40boeing=2Ecom=3E Date=3A Wednesday=2C May 20=2C 2009 11=3A51 pm Subject=3A RE=3A RE=3A New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops-inc= remental-cgn To=3A JiangSheng 66104 =3Cshengjiang=40huawei=2Ecom=3E Cc=3A Gert Doering =3Cgert=40space=2Enet=3E=2C =22Templin=2C Fred L=22 =3C= Fred=2EL=2ETemplin=40boeing=2Ecom=3E=2CR=E9mi Despr=E9s =3Cremi=2Edespres= =40free=2Efr=3E=2C Brian E Carpenter =3Cbrian=2Ee=2Ecarpenter=40gmail=2Ec= om=3E=2C v6ops=40ops=2Eietf=2Eorg=2C guoseu=40huawei=2Ecom=2C =22Russert=2C= Steven W=22 =3Csteven=2Ew=2Erussert=40boeing=2Ecom=3E =3E Sheng=2C =3E = =3E I=27m glad that our views are congruent=2E I believe that our shared = =3E viewpoint is a reasonable one though I recognize that other = =3E vectors are also possible=2E =3E = =3E I apologize for my previous long posting=2E In hindsight=2C I wish = =3E that I had solely stated that because the Internet is likely to = =3E face a period of accelerated change in the next few years=2C with = =3E accompanying challenges within the network operations domain=2C it = =3E behooves us to adopt techniques that will help our community = =3E weather these anticipated events=2E =3E = =3E This is the reason why I personally have been encouraging = =3E coworkers to consider RANGER because I believe that it has = =3E preserved the original intent of the founders of the Internet in a = =3E manner that would enable today=27s Internet to flourish and evolve = =3E during the difficult challenges ahead=2E =3E = =3E I would appreciate it if you all would please read and consider = =3E RANGER and the new RANGERS I-D and share your insights on those = =3E concepts=2E A strength of our community is the quality of our = =3E technical discussions together=2E = =3E = =3E Best wishes=2C =3E = =3E --Eric Fleischman =3E = =3E -----Original Message----- =3E From=3A JiangSheng 66104 =5Bmailto=3Ashengjiang=40huawei=2Ecom=5D = =3E Sent=3A Tuesday=2C May 19=2C 2009 11=3A48 PM =3E To=3A Fleischman=2C Eric =3E Cc=3A Gert Doering=3B Templin=2C Fred L=3B R=E9mi Despr=E9s=3B Brian = E = =3E Carpenter=3B v6ops=40ops=2Eietf=2Eorg=3B guoseu=40huawei=2Ecom=3B Rus= sert=2C Steven = =3E W=3B shengjiang=40huawei=2Ecom =3E Subject=3A Re=3A RE=3A New Version Notification for draft-jiang-v6ops= - =3E incremental-cgn =3E = =3E =3E end users view networks as a business overhead expense and are = =3E =3E unlikely to needlessly spend money on networking technology = =3E without a = =3E =3E solid business motivation to do so=2E I went on to explain that = =3E IPng is = =3E =3E unlikely to be deployed by us end users unless it becomes = =3E bundled with = =3E =3E a business requirement=2C the most compelling of which would be a= = =3E new = =3E =3E Killer Application that demanded IPv6 capabilities in order to = =3E =3E function=2E =3E = =3E Fully agreed=2E This is particularly true for IPv6 deployment in = =3E last ten year - failure to find a killer application=2E A right = =3E business model is actually more important than technology itself=2E =3E = =3E =3E At this current time=2C IPv6 is very immature and IPv6 deployment= s = =3E have = =3E =3E very high risk when compared to IPv4 for the end user=2E There ar= e = =3E only = =3E =3E negative business reasons for deploying IPv6 at this time (i=2Ee=2E= =2C = =3E I can = =3E =3E articulate many compelling business reasons to NOT deploy IPv6 = =3E but the = =3E =3E only reason to deploy it in the USA today is government decree --= =3E = =3E =3E which didn=27t work for OSI and is unlikely to work alone by = =3E itself for = =3E =3E IPv6=2E)=2E There are currently no technical reasons for the end = =3E user to = =3E =3E prefer or want IPv6 over IPv4=2E =3E = =3E I believe this situation is changed=2E IPv4 has reached its = =3E limitation=2E End-user will soon find that they could NOT obtain a = =3E public IPv4 address and with private IPv4 address (maybe more than = =3E one NAT in the way) they were only able to communicate with part = =3E of Internet world=2E ISP has met the problem that they cannot adopt = =3E new services due to the lack of public address=2E =3E = =3E =3E Unless this changes in the future=2C IPv6 will continue to not be= = =3E =3E deployed by end users despite the efforts of Apple and Microsoft = =3E and = =3E =3E others to ease its adoption=2E But then=2C since not all ISPs = =3E support IPv6 = =3E =3E today and the DFZ Internet is currently unprepared for the BGP = =3E scaling = =3E =3E problems that would arise with a mixed IPv4- =3E =3E IPv6 infrastructure this is probably A Good Thing=2E =3E = =3E This is a real issue which has been ignored by IPv6 community for = =3E years=2E My guess is IPv6 community does not want to discuss this = =3E because it may even more block IPv6 deployment=2E However=2C it is = =3E time for us to face it and solve it or avaoid it=2E =3E = =3E =3E I personally *HOPE* that IPv6 will become deployed -- after all=2C= = =3E I = =3E =3E spent many years helping to create it=2E But my experience with = =3E pre- = =3E =3E TCP/IP protocols (I used to be an SNA and BSC =22expert=22) is th= at = =3E even = =3E =3E if IPv6 becomes widely deployed=2C IPv4 will endure for a = =3E surprisingly = =3E =3E long time (decades)=2E =3E = =3E Yes=2C it will be years=2E I believe the whole internet society has = =3E accepted this and be prepared for a 25+ year co-existing period=2E =3E = =3E Best regards=2C =3E = =3E Sheng =3E = =3E From mailtojacobine.bekkers@3hoek.com Thu May 21 13:31:16 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D79173A700C for ; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:31:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.03 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.03 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id t29t4qEi3Ngv for ; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amscrew.cl (unknown [190.71.2.132]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C22EB3A6FFF for ; Thu, 21 May 2009 13:30:48 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 13:30:48 -0700 (PDT)

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From ommateal@a54321.com Fri May 22 04:54:47 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E29E3A6B5E for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 04:54:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.465 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.465 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_MISMATCH_BR=2.4, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id blE1IIaARmh2 for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 04:54:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from absis.com.br (host-78-15-90-227.cust-adsl.tiscali.it [78.15.90.227]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id BD2C73A6D92 for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 04:54:26 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: 0rder #440294 From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090522115428.BD2C73A6D92@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 04:54:26 -0700 (PDT)
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From megdaintith.72851.085@alexmannjobs.com Fri May 22 09:45:14 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F9293A6F95 for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 09:45:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.55 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.55 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m9HCyHMMgQNX for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 09:45:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from airdusco.com (unknown [189.32.220.144]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 073E03A7056 for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 09:45:12 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 09:45:12 -0700 (PDT)

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From joanne.thompson@aatkings.com.au Fri May 22 10:41:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E2C03A6D22 for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 10:41:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -23.224 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-23.224 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DRUGS_PAIN=0.01, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_ORG=0.611, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_08=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, IMPOTENCE=1.886, J_CHICKENPOX_64=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_OBFU_HYDROCODONE=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7jEWSp0Oysrs for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 10:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aacps.org (unknown [61.14.196.115]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 166953A6A66 for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 10:41:22 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Your Hydroc0done 0rder #774293 From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090522174123.166953A6A66@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 10:41:22 -0700 (PDT)
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From cgum@telkom.co.za Fri May 22 12:52:59 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E479728C1C5; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:52:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.391 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.391 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HELO_EQ_MX=0.535, HOST_EQ_MODEMCABLE=1.368, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CpJ+yuvOCmbX; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:52:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host-84-205.cablextremo.com.mx (host-84-205.cablextremo.com.mx [201.158.84.205]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 628E428C1B7; Fri, 22 May 2009 12:51:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: 144.128.148.156 by 206.221.169.207; Fri, 22 May 2009 17:44:43 -0300 Message-ID: From: "Kitty Pugh" To: "Araceli Otero" Subject: Why get an original watch? Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:52:43 -0500 Hello Jennie I had never seen such beautiful and greatly-performing watches like the ones I found online at http://www.golddnes.com/ With top notch customer service and super warranty, we stand behind our watches. http://www.golddnes.com/ Our Gucci have all appropriate markings, wordings and engravings same as orginal. Sincerely, Mr Burke From asex@hknet.com Fri May 22 17:21:25 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 136C03A68A1; Fri, 22 May 2009 17:21:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.571 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.571 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pdev5JKVJe3q; Fri, 22 May 2009 17:21:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mm-127-174-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by (mm-127-174-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by [93.84.174.127]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D9BD23A67D1; Fri, 22 May 2009 17:20:01 -0700 (PDT) To: "Nell Nieves" Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 20:21:48 -0500 Subject: Get your Chopard watch now Message-ID: From: "Rosalind Wolff" Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hello Hope How about buying yourself a two Patek Phillipe watches the same day? It's not impossible, mostly when you can get them for a couple hundred bucks http://www.reppzlis.com/ The best news is that in May you can buy two watches and get an extra 15% off your purchase! http://www.reppzlis.com/ Our Patek Phillipe have all appropriate markings, wordings and engravings same as orginal. Sincerely, Mr Matthews From karnikd@aldec.com Fri May 22 21:04:56 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59F8A3A69DB for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 21:04:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_2=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id R4OBfAXpv9oy for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 21:04:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from al-helabi.com (unknown [189.228.163.145]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 502C63A68BB for ; Fri, 22 May 2009 21:04:49 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 21:04:49 -0700 (PDT)

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From odjerekarov@acsior.com Sat May 23 04:44:42 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06A153A67F7; Sat, 23 May 2009 04:44:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-3.925, BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_RO=1.235, HOST_EQ_RO=0.904, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b8zOyket5WiJ; Sat, 23 May 2009 04:44:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from user80.centru2.centurynet.ro (user80.centru2.centurynet.ro [89.43.82.79]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EB1C53A67D4; Sat, 23 May 2009 04:44:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <663jdj5459tools-discuss@ietf.org> From: "Lucas Navarro" To: "Sheri Sanford" X-Originating-IP: 72.70.48.187 by 84.170.114.5; Sat, 23 May 2009 18:45:12 +0600 Subject: 15% off on two watches Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 07:46:12 -0500 Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hello Irma I had never seen such beautiful and greatly-performing watches like the ones I found online at http://www.jewlery-top.com/ We are offering wholesaler prices on all watches during the month of May. http://www.jewlery-top.com/ Our IWC have Weights/feels and looks exactly same as original. Sincerely, Mr Blackmon From bitich@gofree.indigo.ie Sat May 23 11:16:15 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 102113A6B51; Sat, 23 May 2009 11:16:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.977 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.977 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HOST_EQ_DHCP=1.295, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SBL=20, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vl0ml4uS5Rzq; Sat, 23 May 2009 11:16:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 207-255-246-120-dhcp.wrn.pa.atlanticbb.net (207-255-246-120-dhcp.wrn.pa.atlanticbb.net [207.255.246.120]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DBE2A3A6835; Sat, 23 May 2009 11:15:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Derek Corcoran" To: "Marguerite Roper" Subject: Franck Muller reps better than originals Date: Sat, 23 May 2009 14:17:34 -0500 Message-ID: <62Vmxt.y354K398aaa-archive@lists.ietf.org> Content-Type: text/plain; Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7Bit Hello Romeo If you've waited to get your Chopard watch, this is the right time to go for it. http://www.reppzlis.com/ We are offering wholesaler prices on all watches during the month of May. http://www.reppzlis.com/ Our Chopard have Weights/feels and looks exactly same as original. Sincerely, Mr Piper From nlp@agk-world.com Mon May 25 11:07:51 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89EA43A67B6 for ; Mon, 25 May 2009 11:07:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.963 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.963 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[APOSTROPHE_FROM=0.001, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HELO_EQ_TW=1.335, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_16=1.526, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L6Gqg8fuAjhC for ; Mon, 25 May 2009 11:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 61-64-125-165-adsl-kao.dynamic.so-net.net.tw (61-64-125-165-adsl-kao.dynamic.so-net.net.tw [61.64.125.165]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 65EA83A6405 for ; Mon, 25 May 2009 11:07:48 -0700 (PDT) To: " Date: Mon, 25 May 2009 11:07:48 -0700 (PDT)

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From johnsmithsvt@alphalytik.de Wed May 27 01:28:44 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 676333A6953 for ; Wed, 27 May 2009 01:28:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.726 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.726 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HOST_EQ_PL=1.95, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NHc6p8i+FWif for ; Wed, 27 May 2009 01:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nw.unitron.com.pl (nw.unitron.com.pl [217.98.24.186]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 8721228C0E6 for ; Wed, 27 May 2009 01:28:10 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Newsletter #190338 From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090527082810.8721228C0E6@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 01:28:10 -0700 (PDT)
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From kardenkardenowea@aldec.com Wed May 27 04:39:15 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 419B03A6F3A for ; Wed, 27 May 2009 04:39:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.639 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.639 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xVzvCiJkgyzI for ; Wed, 27 May 2009 04:39:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adsl-98-180-192-81.adsl2.iam.net.ma (adsl-98-180-192-81.adsl2.iam.net.ma [81.192.180.98]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2F1113A69FD for ; Wed, 27 May 2009 04:39:05 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Newsletter #202364 From: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090527113907.2F1113A69FD@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 04:39:05 -0700 (PDT)
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Ottho Heldringstraat 8, 27575 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 27 12:36:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 191403A6E58 for ; Wed, 27 May 2009 12:36:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.274 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.274 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.326, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2ALhfiP9ZA0j for ; Wed, 27 May 2009 12:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A9943A6F61 for ; Wed, 27 May 2009 12:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M9Or8-00079i-Pa for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 27 May 2009 19:32:06 +0000 Received: from [2001:1890:1112:1::20] (helo=mail.ietf.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M9Oqn-00077s-P8 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 27 May 2009 19:32:01 +0000 Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id 1510B3A69CD; Wed, 27 May 2009 12:30:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rogue-ra-00.txt Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20090527193002.1510B3A69CD@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 27 May 2009 12:30:02 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : Rogue IPv6 Router Advertisement Problem Statement Author(s) : T. Chown, S. Venaas Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-rogue-ra-00.txt Pages : 16 Date : 2009-05-27 When deploying IPv6, whether IPv6-only or dual-stack, routers are configured to send IPv6 Router Advertisements to convey information to nodes that enable them to autoconfigure on the network. This information includes the implied default router address taken from the observed source address of the Router Advertisement (RA) message, as well as on-link prefix information. However, unintended misconfigurations by users or administrators, or possibly malicious attacks on the network, may lead to bogus RAs being present, which in turn can cause operational problems for hosts on the network. In this draft we summarise the scenarios in which rogue RAs may be observed and present a list of possible solutions to the problem. We focus on the unintended causes of rogue RAs in the text. The goal of this text is to be Informational, and as such to present a framework around which solutions can be proposed and discussed. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rogue-ra-00.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-v6ops-rogue-ra-00.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2009-05-27122658.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed May 27 16:17:23 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC89A3A6BDA for ; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:17:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.569 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.569 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.030, BAYES_00=-2.599, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YZ58ZIOWEwE1 for ; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:17:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 284673A719C for ; Wed, 27 May 2009 16:16:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M9SJ6-000NyV-PD for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 27 May 2009 23:13:12 +0000 Received: from [2001:630:d0:f102::25e] (helo=falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M9SIv-000Nwz-3I for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 27 May 2009 23:13:07 +0000 Received: from falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n4RNCvPF031652 for ; Thu, 28 May 2009 00:12:57 +0100 X-DKIM: Sendmail DKIM Filter v2.8.2 falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk n4RNCvPF031652 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=simple/simple; d=ecs.soton.ac.uk; s=200903; t=1243465977; bh=+pu5tcQt1kbyc2Oug3IFttGbK8s=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:Mime-Version:In-Reply-To; b=Uc/xALeO8pTO8Q7gYX3ke+brtWdPRuRkhVy3Lq1k/PCKiuzivfKETW6gjlOnDsrWu M3+AvpLr/Pyq2c0U+7FXDSvu3Zy5sl9qlIfXU3bdvg2Pv4WYFZKD946UbKqzq0xYVT heAl2wwdFCxGahW//mZ3Uin2ui+seMDygoL0BZ90= Received: from gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25d]) by falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk (falcon.ecs.soton.ac.uk [2001:630:d0:f102::25e]) envelope-from with ESMTP id l4R0Cv1140702970XN ret-id none; Thu, 28 May 2009 00:12:57 +0100 Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (login.ecs.soton.ac.uk [IPv6:2001:630:d0:f102:230:48ff:fe59:5f12]) by gander.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n4RNCn57018960 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 28 May 2009 00:12:49 +0100 Received: from login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.11.6) with ESMTP id n4RNCnsB005198 for ; Thu, 28 May 2009 00:12:49 +0100 Received: (from tjc@localhost) by login.ecs.soton.ac.uk (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id n4RNCnCp005197 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 28 May 2009 00:12:49 +0100 Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 00:12:49 +0100 From: Tim Chown To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-rogue-ra-00.txt Message-ID: Mail-Followup-To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org References: <20090527193002.1510B3A69CD@core3.amsl.com> <20090527231248.GF6521@login.ecs.soton.ac.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20090527193002.1510B3A69CD@core3.amsl.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.2.2i X-ECS-MailScanner: Found to be clean, Found to be clean X-smtpf-Report: client=relay,ipv6; mail=; rcpt= X-ECS-MailScanner-Information: Please contact the ISP for more information X-ECS-MailScanner-ID: n4RNCvPF031652 X-ECS-MailScanner-From: tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, This is a reposting with (minor) edits from comments from WGLC, mainly from Jinmei. Tim On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 12:30:02PM -0700, Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. > > > Title : Rogue IPv6 Router Advertisement Problem Statement > Author(s) : T. Chown, S. Venaas > Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-rogue-ra-00.txt > Pages : 16 > Date : 2009-05-27 > > When deploying IPv6, whether IPv6-only or dual-stack, routers are > configured to send IPv6 Router Advertisements to convey information > to nodes that enable them to autoconfigure on the network. This > information includes the implied default router address taken from > the observed source address of the Router Advertisement (RA) message, > as well as on-link prefix information. However, unintended > misconfigurations by users or administrators, or possibly malicious > attacks on the network, may lead to bogus RAs being present, which in > turn can cause operational problems for hosts on the network. In > this draft we summarise the scenarios in which rogue RAs may be > observed and present a list of possible solutions to the problem. We > focus on the unintended causes of rogue RAs in the text. The goal of > this text is to be Informational, and as such to present a framework > around which solutions can be proposed and discussed. > > A URL for this Internet-Draft is: > http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rogue-ra-00.txt > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu May 28 04:51:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2479D3A6DBF for ; Thu, 28 May 2009 04:51:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.657 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.657 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.057, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aKqJl84RFKtg for ; Thu, 28 May 2009 04:51:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4AD53A6DC7 for ; Thu, 28 May 2009 04:51:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M9e4s-0007SK-RS for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 28 May 2009 11:47:18 +0000 Received: from [2001:1890:1112:1::20] (helo=mail.ietf.org) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.69 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1M9e4M-0007OD-G7 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 28 May 2009 11:47:08 +0000 Received: by core3.amsl.com (Postfix, from userid 0) id F2E8B3A69CA; Thu, 28 May 2009 04:45:01 -0700 (PDT) From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org To: i-d-announce@ietf.org Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-guard-03.txt Content-Type: Multipart/Mixed; Boundary="NextPart" Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <20090528114501.F2E8B3A69CA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 04:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --NextPart A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : IPv6 RA-Guard Author(s) : E. Levy-Abegnoli, et al. Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-guard-03.txt Pages : 10 Date : 2009-05-28 It is particularly easy to experience "rogue" routers on an unsecured link [reference4]. Devices acting as a rougue router may send illegitimate RAs. Section 6 of SeND [RFC3971] provides a full solution to this problem, by enabling routers certification. This solution does, however, require all nodes on an L2 network segment to support SeND, as well as it carries some deployment challenges. End- nodes must be provisioned with certificate anchors. The solution works better when end-nodes have access to a Certificate Revocation List server, and to a Network Time Protocol server, both typically off-link, which brings some bootstrap issues. When using IPv6 within a single L2 network segment it is possible and sometimes desirable to enable layer 2 devices to drop rogue RAs before they reach end-nodes. In order to distinguish valid from rogue RAs, the L2 devices can use a spectrum of criterias, from a static scheme that blocks RAs received on un-trusted ports, or from un-trusted sources, to a more dynamic scheme that uses SeND to challenge RA sources. This document reviews various techniques applicable on the L2 devices to reduce the threat of rogue RAs. A URL for this Internet-Draft is: http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-guard-03.txt Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the Internet-Draft. --NextPart Content-Type: Message/External-body; name="draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-guard-03.txt"; site="ftp.ietf.org"; access-type="anon-ftp"; directory="internet-drafts" Content-Type: text/plain Content-ID: <2009-05-28044234.I-D@ietf.org> --NextPart-- From butterflyingq@vangaver.net Thu May 28 05:29:29 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 095783A6D0E; Thu, 28 May 2009 05:29:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.849 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.849 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DIET_1=0.083, FH_FAKE_RCVD_LINE_B=5.777, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_VERIZON_P=2.144, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL=1.495, HS_INDEX_PARAM=0.001, HTML_FONT_SIZE_HUGE=0.057, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2telAOKG3ZHg; Thu, 28 May 2009 05:29:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool-68-239-1-242.bos.east.verizon.net (pool-68-239-1-242.bos.east.verizon.net [68.239.1.242]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1560F3A68D8; Thu, 28 May 2009 05:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 68.239.1.242 by mail.vangaver.net; Thu, 28 May 2009 08:30:36 -0500 Date: Thu, 28 May 2009 08:30:36 -0500 From: vpim@ietf.org X-Mailer: The Bat! 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From jeronimo@alpestransportes.com.br Fri May 29 10:49:48 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8B4E3A6C4E for ; Fri, 29 May 2009 10:49:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.995 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.995 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_IT=0.635, HOST_EQ_IT=1.245, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PytSLC1jk9kf for ; Fri, 29 May 2009 10:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host114-199-static.29-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it (host114-199-static.29-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it [79.29.199.114]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0ECA43A69F0 for ; Fri, 29 May 2009 10:49:43 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: For next week From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090529174945.0ECA43A69F0@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 10:49:43 -0700 (PDT)
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From oscarw@ameritechusa.com Fri May 29 14:01:22 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1C3D3A6DFE for ; Fri, 29 May 2009 14:01:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -12.192 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-12.192 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_MY=0.35, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id omONmF0j2s7O for ; Fri, 29 May 2009 14:01:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aecorp.po.my (unknown [189.142.194.193]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D0CE63A6B00 for ; Fri, 29 May 2009 14:01:17 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Re: Your subscribe #760107 From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090529210118.D0CE63A6B00@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 29 May 2009 14:01:17 -0700 (PDT)
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From ljmeredi@ag.state.nv.us Sat May 30 05:41:33 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4F0D3A6B37 for ; Sat, 30 May 2009 05:41:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -13.076 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-13.076 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F29CuiedjWEx for ; Sat, 30 May 2009 05:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bzq-79-183-242-181.red.bezeqint.net (bzq-79-183-242-181.red.bezeqint.net [79.183.242.181]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 277353A68F8 for ; Sat, 30 May 2009 05:41:17 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: For next week From: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090530124119.277353A68F8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 05:41:17 -0700 (PDT)
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Ottho Heldringstraat 8, 72891 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands
From logandd@amax.com Sat May 30 06:18:35 2009 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB8F63A696F for ; Sat, 30 May 2009 06:18:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -10.935 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-10.935 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_ALMOST_IP=5.417, FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP=1.889, HELO_DYNAMIC_DHCP=1.398, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_UNI=0.591, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_OB_SURBL=10, URIBL_RHS_DOB=1.083, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aW-O5mYR1E-N for ; Sat, 30 May 2009 06:18:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adsl-77-237-101.mia.bellsouth.net (adsl-77-237-101.mia.bellsouth.net [98.77.237.101]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 28CBA3A6963 for ; Sat, 30 May 2009 06:18:26 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Re: Your subscribe #512049 From: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20090530131827.28CBA3A6963@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 06:18:26 -0700 (PDT)
Tell a friend · Download latest version See this email as a webpage

Hello!

Shipped Privately And Discreetly To Your Door!
See this email as a webpage
  We want to put a great big grin on your face in 2009. You'll be to rejoice all year.  

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Ottho Heldringstraat 9, 96146 AZ Amsterdam, The Netherlands