From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 1 06:25:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B0753A68F7 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 06:25:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 2.474 X-Spam-Level: ** X-Spam-Status: No, score=2.474 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.819, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nb0bEgePnXnX for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 06:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 933503A688F for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 06:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxKJQ-000G6h-2W for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:19:56 +0000 Received: from [130.37.15.35] (helo=stereo.hq.phicoh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxKJN-000G6M-Ms for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 13:19:54 +0000 Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #2) id m1NxKJL-0001c6C; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 15:19 +0200 Message-Id: To: IPv6 v6ops Subject: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 From: Philip Homburg Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:19:49 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: WPD-6: Absent of other routing information the IPv6 CE router MUST use Router Discovery as specified in [RFC4861] to discover a default router(s) and install default route(s) in its routing table with the discovered router's address as the next-hop. RFC-4861 describes how routers process Router Advertisements (mainly to check them for consistency). Only hosts maintain a list of default routers. It seems strange to me that a BCP mandates behavior that doesn't seem to be covered by any of the standard track RFCs. If using router advertisements to provide low-end routers with a default route is a desirable model, then maybe there should be an RFC for that. It looks like that at least one ISP treats this draft BCP as gospel. So I wonder whether the draft should mandate the weak host model. I can't think of anything negative that would happen if a CPE assigns in WAA-8 the address not to a virtual interface but to its WAN interface and then implements the strong model. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 1 07:50:39 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E0563A6963 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 07:50:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.891 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.891 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=3.474, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i0HksveKc7HL for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 07:50:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 240883A699D for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 07:50:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxLfi-000PSG-0j for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:47:02 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxLfc-000PQa-7M for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 14:46:56 +0000 Authentication-Results: ams-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AikBADtPtEuQ/uCWe2dsb2JhbACbPhUBAQsLIgYcnFeZF4UBBA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,348,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="58864483" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Apr 2010 14:46:54 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-55-91-136.cisco.com (dhcp-10-55-91-136.cisco.com [10.55.91.136]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o31EksxN008276; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 14:46:54 GMT Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 16:46:44 +0200 Cc: IPv6 v6ops Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1EEC7D49-21D4-4EBD-9CF9-B7D29D32F9CE@cisco.com> References: To: Philip Homburg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > WPD-6: > Absent of other routing information the IPv6 CE router MUST > use Router Discovery as specified in [RFC4861] to discover a > default router(s) and install default route(s) in its routing > table with the discovered router's address as the next-hop. >=20 > RFC-4861 describes how routers process Router Advertisements (mainly = to > check them for consistency). Only hosts maintain a list of default = routers. that's why the upstream interface is specified as behaving as a host for = some functions. see W-1. > It seems strange to me that a BCP mandates behavior that doesn't seem = to be > covered by any of the standard track RFCs. If using router = advertisements > to provide low-end routers with a default route is a desirable model, = then > maybe there should be an RFC for that. targeted for Informational, but anyway. yes, that a 'router' does SLAAC or router discovery caused quite a bit = of head ache. the proposed way around that is to define that a = home-gateway behaves as a host for certain functions while still = forwarding packets. note that the mechanism in WPD-6 suggests Router Discovery as a last = resort. > It looks like that at least one ISP treats this draft BCP as gospel. = So I=20 > wonder whether the draft should mandate the weak host model. I can't = think > of anything negative that would happen if a CPE assigns in WAA-8 the = address > not to a virtual interface but to its WAN interface and then = implements the > strong model. that would violate rfc3633. which require that a delegated prefix isn't = used on the link between the RR and the DR. routers are generally = following the weak host model, any particular reason why you require the = strong host model? cheers, Ole= From uninformativei1708@taxitropa.ru Thu Apr 1 07:53:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E09B3A69E5; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 07:53:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -79.486 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-79.486 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wyDXp6Ad5qGy; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 07:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 0121-98-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com (0121-98-27-72-DYNAMIC-dsl.cwjamaica.com [72.27.98.121]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6290F3A69E8; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 07:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 72.27.98.121 by taxitropa.ru; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 10:53:54 -0500 Message-ID: <000d01cad1ab$26214d90$6400a8c0@uninformativei1708> From: To: Subject: Hello, long time did not communicate, please contact me, your beautiful Sonia! 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------=_NextPart_000_044C_01CAD1AB.26214D90-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 1 08:53:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F5433A69B0 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:53:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.99 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.99 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.075, BAYES_50=0.001, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, IP_NOT_FRIENDLY=0.334, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hr1u2Wk7izrg for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD983A6A25 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:53:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxMdw-0005rT-T5 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:49:16 +0000 Received: from web111414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com ([67.195.15.210]) by psg.com with smtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxMdq-0005qt-Q5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:49:12 +0000 Received: (qmail 45845 invoked by uid 60001); 1 Apr 2010 15:49:10 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s1024; t=1270136950; bh=GP4ogkijG5Y6WT+9+4f5avwOkAePOCJn5B/AWt6J8v4=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Bxpuvbk+1QOcBi20rDLWmdkzGhISchfKpGTdgxT9V0iz0A1zF6gO9pIafPf4+91YBtcFNNErYIQOINeoxU1EPhfuJqvLFVaNg7fbWXlGdPfeBKl5P9zO55iFfIoV8qeSnpYst6mcFNoT9Ukn71KREcRG4FR+bB8OaRH9/vdAxmI= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:References:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=Bp4NkgcnTMDUhEMyH4Bvecjs3Jw1KDZdrHbK+Uh9mUUjOkooPCeruKSkXPsL39jcgqPWc0va5jkzkZW2arB4EoSuL/SyBn47czwWvtSDyJ+4OePKCmbDCrT1eYzxBeSXFrpsW6LyLdqo7oO91hcayeX0B4zb6gr7mohuzLedbBM=; Message-ID: <96939.45788.qm@web111414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 5rfOzp0VM1mlmDII6oxSMkYMP_LBZfmLmLipEbvr8.8Pdvc ELBrSSCfgE99gXqSJETnIEmRRS7X_SWvIru_v6qkcGJZuMB6LGo5DNGo4APR qjKNag0VXhDMY7YpyEUpQcOXu7b3Hp15bK8EmrFtQeS.qCgNSTUVHxOcK3Au Oa_2bxK6wFTfTRB1ERt.ZVs1rUl8jsMgdOSbHHFaCPpXjlMN3sK8vonXsiR0 mTY2YM6vup04kslBlIu_mwGvMB5TQnLB7jOcTu3uYDfsuSj9BlMYVQZxd4ot HkmTf24f5_u81JRtDPx8YXaxr4SIvFl8VVHtJM2ANFZ44rK67umjYhJLDXCL 5aBS8TT37YB6jfnKWjOTzBg-- Received: from [206.16.17.212] by web111414.mail.gq1.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 08:49:09 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/324.3 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 References: Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 08:49:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Behcet Sarikaya Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya Subject: Re: Re: [3gv6] about Prefix delegation in 3GPP EPC networks To: lizhenqiang@chinamobile.com Cc: "3gv6@ietf.org" <3gv6@ietf.org>, IPv6 Operations In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: ----- Original Message ---- > From: "lizhenqiang@chinamobile.com" > To: Behcet Sarikaya > Cc: "3gv6@ietf.org" <3gv6@ietf.org>; IPv6 Operations > Sent: Thu, April 1, 2010 10:45:03 AM > Subject: Re: Re: [3gv6] about Prefix delegation in 3GPP EPC networks > > Hi Behcet, I attended the discussion in v6ops. There were lots of > questions about your contribution. Isn't that good? > The figures in your document even are not > 3GPP architecture. You are right. As I mentioned at the end I need to make a few corrections and issue a revised draft. I am working on it and it will be out soon. > Which solution do you think is simpler? and Why? I don't > think UE is difficult to carry a requested prefix length. I thought about this a little more. If such a thing is possible, I can make use of it in my draft. In fact knowing the exact length needed by UE will help the requesting router. Otherwise RR has to make a decision about the length which may not be good. I can easily include this in my revised draft, no problem. The main point here is the requesting router should be located at the AR (P-GW) not at the UE. If this is accepted I think that draft-sarikaya-v6ops-prefix-delegation provides a good solution for 3GPP. What do you think? Regards, Behcet From urn-ietf@ietf.org Thu Apr 1 10:50:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 192303A699A for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 10:50:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 10:50:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 013.net (unknown [125.164.238.140]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0CB353A6AA5 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 10:50:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Special Discount 74% for v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100401175022.0CB353A6AA5@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 1 Apr 2010 10:50:11 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 1 12:43:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7D6E3A6A22 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 12:43:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.311 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.311 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.618, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ylCKFFTSdUUb for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 12:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05F183A697A for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 12:43:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxQEa-0006Fn-FG for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:39:20 +0000 Received: from [130.37.15.35] (helo=stereo.hq.phicoh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxQEX-0006FE-On for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 19:39:18 +0000 Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #2) id m1NxQEQ-0001c6C; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 21:39 +0200 Message-Id: To: Ole Troan Cc: IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 From: Philip Homburg References: <1EEC7D49-21D4-4EBD-9CF9-B7D29D32F9CE@cisco.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 1 Apr 2010 16:46:44 +0200 ." <1EEC7D49-21D4-4EBD-9CF9-B7D29D32F9CE@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 21:39:06 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > part text/plain 1708 > > WPD-6: > > Absent of other routing information the IPv6 CE router MUST > > use Router Discovery as specified in [RFC4861] to discover a > > default router(s) and install default route(s) in its routing > > table with the discovered router's address as the next-hop. > > > > RFC-4861 describes how routers process Router Advertisements (mainly to > > check them for consistency). Only hosts maintain a list of default routers. > > that's why the upstream interface is specified as behaving as a > host for some functions. see W-1. For acquiring a global address. It doesn't say anything about after that. Does it remain a host until a default route is installed? How does it handle expiring the router router. Or is the first router that replies installed there forever? > > It looks like that at least one ISP treats this draft BCP as gospel. So I > > wonder whether the draft should mandate the weak host model. I can't think > > of anything negative that would happen if a CPE assigns in WAA-8 the addres > s > > not to a virtual interface but to its WAN interface and then implements the > > strong model. > > that would violate rfc3633. which require that a delegated prefix > isn't used on the link between the RR and the DR. routers are > generally following the weak host model, any particular reason why > you require the strong host model? I never expected a DHCP RFC to effectively mandate the weak multi host model. Weird. Because the CPE is essentially always-on it is very tempting to add other host functionality, like a file server, a web server for the customers's pictures and videos, maybe a SIP gateway, etc. As such it may acquire other prefixes as well, maybe ULA, maybe as part of multi homing, prefixes from other providers. With the strong host model, you know from with interface addresses are going to be selected for sending error ICMPs. With the weak multi homing model it is anyones guess. How do prevent to router from using the wrong address for sending an error ICMP? From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 1 16:42:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D78C3A6857 for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 16:42:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.049 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.049 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=2.316, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0OvNS1lKPEjG for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 16:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEB733A67FD for ; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 16:41:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxTx8-0000sN-QB for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 23:37:34 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxTx6-0000s0-40 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 23:37:32 +0000 Authentication-Results: ams-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AlcBAHPLtEuQ/uCWe2dsb2JhbACbShUBAQsLIgYcnQiZCoUBBA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,351,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="58884389" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 01 Apr 2010 23:37:30 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-55-91-33.cisco.com (dhcp-10-55-91-33.cisco.com [10.55.91.33]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o31NbT7d029792; Thu, 1 Apr 2010 23:37:30 GMT Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 01:37:05 +0200 Cc: IPv6 v6ops Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0B35BBAF-1144-4D08-B6FA-CE54C9E0584E@cisco.com> References: <1EEC7D49-21D4-4EBD-9CF9-B7D29D32F9CE@cisco.com> To: Philip Homburg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Philip, >> part text/plain 1708 >>> WPD-6: >>> Absent of other routing information the IPv6 CE router MUST >>> use Router Discovery as specified in [RFC4861] to discover a >>> default router(s) and install default route(s) in its routing >>> table with the discovered router's address as the next-hop. >>>=20 >>> RFC-4861 describes how routers process Router Advertisements (mainly = to >>> check them for consistency). Only hosts maintain a list of default = routers. >>=20 >> that's why the upstream interface is specified as behaving as a >> host for some functions. see W-1. >=20 > For acquiring a global address. It doesn't say anything about after = that. Does > it remain a host until a default route is installed? How does it = handle=20 > expiring the router router. Or is the first router that replies = installed there > forever? for the purpose of acquiring an address it will behave like a host. = equally with expiring a router learnt via router discovery. of course it = is acting as a router for all other purposes. I'm not that keen on using router discovery either, but as a last resort = do you have any better idea? >>> It looks like that at least one ISP treats this draft BCP as gospel. = So I >>> wonder whether the draft should mandate the weak host model. I can't = think >>> of anything negative that would happen if a CPE assigns in WAA-8 the = addres >> s >>> not to a virtual interface but to its WAN interface and then = implements the >>> strong model. >>=20 >> that would violate rfc3633. which require that a delegated prefix >> isn't used on the link between the RR and the DR. routers are >> generally following the weak host model, any particular reason why >> you require the strong host model? >=20 > I never expected a DHCP RFC to effectively mandate the weak multi host = model. > Weird. it doesn't. the need for the 'unnumbered' WAN interface does. I don't know of any router implementation which doesn't implement the = weak host model, but I'm not aware of that being specified anywhere = either. > Because the CPE is essentially always-on it is very tempting to add = other host > functionality, like a file server, a web server for the customers's = pictures > and videos, maybe a SIP gateway, etc. As such it may acquire other = prefixes > as well, maybe ULA, maybe as part of multi homing, prefixes from other > providers. >=20 > With the strong host model, you know from with interface addresses are = going to > be selected for sending error ICMPs. With the weak multi homing model = it is > anyones guess. >=20 > How do prevent to router from using the wrong address for sending an = error > ICMP? it will pick the best source for the purpose, see RFC4443. just like any = other multi-homed implementation. see also rfc3484. cheers, Ole= From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Fri Apr 2 04:52:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB2C73A6860 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 04:52:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.02 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.02 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_DYNAMIC_SPLIT_IP=3.493, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HELO_EQ_IP_ADDR=1.119, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_PH_SURBL=1.787, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VWxbHzRiwjti for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 04:52:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 201.47.197.34.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br (201.47.197.34.dynamic.adsl.gvt.net.br [201.47.197.34]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1F5943A683B for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 04:52:41 -0700 (PDT) From: USA VIAGRA ID7955 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear v6ops-archive@ietf.org 75% 0FF on Pfizer ! 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 05:54:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EA903A6852 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 05:54:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.217 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.217 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.852, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dwoykKh-6bDb for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 05:54:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC2123A62C1 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 05:54:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxgJW-00035f-2R for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 12:49:30 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxgJT-000359-4r for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 12:49:27 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,353,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="98271377" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 02 Apr 2010 12:49:25 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com [72.163.63.8]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o32CnPcT014576; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:49:25 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) by xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 2 Apr 2010 07:49:25 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 07:49:24 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0B35BBAF-1144-4D08-B6FA-CE54C9E0584E@cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Thread-Index: AcrR9RLpPXsLUBt6QByoDCX/rATF6gAbEg+A References: <1EEC7D49-21D4-4EBD-9CF9-B7D29D32F9CE@cisco.com> <0B35BBAF-1144-4D08-B6FA-CE54C9E0584E@cisco.com> From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" To: "Ole Troan" , "Philip Homburg" Cc: "IPv6 v6ops" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Apr 2010 12:49:25.0252 (UTC) FILETIME=[ECA7AC40:01CAD262] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > it doesn't. the need for the 'unnumbered' WAN interface does. > I don't know of any router implementation which doesn't implement the weak host model, but I'm not=20 > aware of that being specified anywhere either. Shin Miyakawa from NTT explained to me one time that they had people implementing CPE routers based on a Windows Vista stack that used the strong host model. This presented quite some difficulty for NTT as an operator - as they had to restrict themselves in what they could do in terms of address space conservation in order to support a strong host model CPE router - and this warning was in a previous version of the CPE router specification. We should actively discourage people from building and using strong host model CPE routers. This was the previous text: "The Unnumbered model is incompatible with the strong host model [RFC1122] on the CPE router. The unnumbered model may be inappropriate for use with certain deployments where a device that uses the strong host model can operate as a CPE router." - Wes From uk@megatron.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 06:12:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 989F73A69FF for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 06:12:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 06:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from advisorsquare.com (unknown [122.168.20.211]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DA4F03A69D1 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 06:11:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Electronic Discount Code 72% for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100402131153.DA4F03A69D1@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 06:11:49 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 08:21:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 212333A6808 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:21:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.417 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.417 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2RkQpmIO8whE for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:21:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFC4B3A677C for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nxibr-000Hj1-Ob for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:16:35 +0000 Received: from [74.125.83.180] (helo=mail-pv0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nxibo-000Him-Md for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:16:32 +0000 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22so899542pvc.11 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:16:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=0udrM40/dFda4tgYVfoVLyuX8K+xboyvYZCiCHebWX8=; b=hnzaznAYSJaTKAR34EueZ8hyLUZeUfg08WqZM4Bcg0FFnI7u2N9lfieglRyc6d8yg5 4MxNScIegoTzx6JPuBDLsI3WQkEpTBmLJXNn3VKx9B4tsgsshklGMIcMWu7ZiO3RWR6m 3N68z71yeBdA0TJwI+EpV9Hx0XH1DcRH4zIrM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=LT1ckBXXP8QfKTxk9UQAoPQxnnse/iuTi3Mcs43QSGMc0jpcFus3atoKWpeP2tmziP 3yt+bFVtAWRB9rzhemUsDpZwxTHznHXsTVASogyJbW3K6vXCxdt8vyI5kznKpgXdIT3B Mv3x1GvTykeqHOsAzck/d/+61lIa9wW2gx3Z8= Received: by 10.114.187.40 with SMTP id k40mr2336718waf.30.1270221392056; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:16:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.202.2.47] (anlextwls002-047.wl.anl-external.org [130.202.2.47]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 21sm1956512iwn.7.2010.04.02.08.16.30 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 02 Apr 2010 08:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BB60A4C.5090009@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 04:16:28 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ed Jankiewicz CC: IPv6 Operations , 6man Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation References: <4BB127CE.7020703@sri.com> In-Reply-To: <4BB127CE.7020703@sri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: As every successful IPv6 user on Windows XP knows, the hack would break all Windows XP IPv6 usage (since it can't resolve DNS over IPv6 at all). I prefer the current situation, where occasionally I have to disable IPv6 manually due to being on an IPv6-broken network where DNS serves up AAAA records and my regular tunnel is too slow. This seems OK, since people using v6 on XP are normally doing so as conscious early adopters. I do think that Google's solution to this, i.e. being selective about who gets the AAAA records in the first place, is much less of hack with less harmful side effects. Surely a better hack would be for recursive resolvers in IPv6-broken networks not to serve up AAAA records at all? Tunnel users could always find another resolver. Regards Brian From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Fri Apr 2 08:58:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD7363A67D4 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:58:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.663 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.663 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UfwWHHhZe9bK for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bzq-84-111-88-127.red.bezeqint.net (bzq-84-111-88-127.red.bezeqint.net [84.111.88.127]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 209733A659A for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:58:43 -0700 (PDT) From: "#1 VIAGRA Shop" To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Yo, v6ops-archive, get 81% OFF Today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100402155844.209733A659A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:58:43 -0700 (PDT) Newsletter
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From v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 08:59:06 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A26623A67D4 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:59:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.663 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.663 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CWDR7og4tojb for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bzq-84-111-88-127.red.bezeqint.net (bzq-84-111-88-127.red.bezeqint.net [84.111.88.127]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB8413A659A for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:59:04 -0700 (PDT) From: "#1 VIAGRA Shop" To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Yo, v6ops-archive, get 81% OFF Today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100402155904.EB8413A659A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Newsletter
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From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 08:59:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D513A67D4 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:59:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.662 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.662 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id I4Y6r4ZtgYbl for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from bzq-84-111-88-127.red.bezeqint.net (bzq-84-111-88-127.red.bezeqint.net [84.111.88.127]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CA073A659A for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:59:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "#1 VIAGRA Shop" To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Yo, v6ops-archive, get 81% OFF Today MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100402155929.1CA073A659A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 08:59:28 -0700 (PDT) Newsletter
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 09:12:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EDFA3A6953 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:12:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.021 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.021 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.711, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r62MMBfLOlmq for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 423513A67D4 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 09:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxjRh-000MQ5-Go for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:10:09 +0000 Received: from [212.27.42.6] (helo=smtp6-g21.free.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxjRe-000MPR-5Y for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:10:07 +0000 Received: from smtp6-g21.free.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp6-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2320CE0810A; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:09:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.13] (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by smtp6-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66455E08010; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:09:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= In-Reply-To: <4BB60A4C.5090009@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 18:09:53 +0200 Cc: Ed Jankiewicz , IPv6 Operations , 6man Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <2CF288DB-61F0-442B-BDBB-49AC4DB07BB9@free.fr> References: <4BB127CE.7020703@sri.com> <4BB60A4C.5090009@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Le 2 avr. 2010 =E0 17:16, Brian E Carpenter a =E9crit : > I prefer the current situation, where occasionally I have to > disable IPv6 manually due to being on an IPv6-broken network > where DNS serves up AAAA records So do I. > I do think that Google's solution to this, i.e. being selective > about who gets the AAAA records in the first place, is much less > of hack with less harmful side effects. +1 > Surely a better hack would be for recursive resolvers in IPv6-broken > networks not to serve up AAAA records at all? Agreed. RD From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 10:00:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 398FA3A69BD for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:00:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.169 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.169 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zFZCOtkFJ0oQ for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:00:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66C933A6829 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 10:00:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxkAp-0000pb-Lo for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:56:47 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxkAj-0000l7-NS for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:56:44 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o32Gtq58008058; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 16:55:52 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o32Gtq7r008057; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 16:55:52 GMT Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 16:55:52 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Ed Jankiewicz , IPv6 Operations , 6man Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation Message-ID: <20100402165552.GA7583@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <4BB127CE.7020703@sri.com> <4BB60A4C.5090009@gmail.com> <2CF288DB-61F0-442B-BDBB-49AC4DB07BB9@free.fr> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: <2CF288DB-61F0-442B-BDBB-49AC4DB07BB9@free.fr> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 06:09:53PM +0200, Rimi Despris wrote: > > > Surely a better hack would be for recursive resolvers in IPv6-broken > > networks not to serve up AAAA records at all? > > Agreed. > > RD aren't you making the assumption that the recursive resolver is on/in the same broadcast domain as the stub which it is serving? how can you ensure that the IP reachability of the stub is "semantically simialar"** to the IP reachability of the recursive resolver? the DNS has no hooks into topological reachability. ** identical, equivalent, etc... See IDN equivalence --bill From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 11:37:17 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 07ABE3A6B30 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:37:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.741 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.741 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.376, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tv9QVo2ONTyZ for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:37:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A10583A69BE for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:14:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxlKk-0008uL-S0 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 18:11:06 +0000 Received: from [17.254.13.23] (helo=mail-out4.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxlKh-0008u6-Va for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 18:11:04 +0000 Received: from relay11.apple.com (relay11.apple.com [17.128.113.48]) by mail-out4.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70AB09354F69; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:11:03 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807130-b7bdeae000004562-f6-4bb633378e03 Received: from il0602b-dhcp250.apple.com (il0602b-dhcp250.apple.com [17.206.24.250]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay11.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id B4.3B.17762.73336BB4; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:11:03 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: <4BB60A4C.5090009@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:11:03 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <635027C3-455E-4DB3-84D1-9EE8C1856EF3@apple.com> References: <4BB127CE.7020703@sri.com> <4BB60A4C.5090009@gmail.com> To: IPv6 Operations , 6man X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Apr 2, 2010, at 08:16, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >=20 > I do think that Google's solution to this, i.e. being selective > about who gets the AAAA records in the first place, is much less > of a hack, with less harmful side effects. While everyone else was in the 6MAN session, I was actually jumping back = and forth between 6MAN and DNSOP because I didn't want to miss this = presentation. As I pointed out at the microphone in DNSOP, the proposed = hack is absolutely broken because it relies on a pair of TOTALLY = INOPERATIVE ASSUMPTIONS: A) good IPv6 connectivity between the DNS resolving server and the DNS = content server implies good IPv6 connectivity between the client = application host and the application server host. B) good IPv6 connectivity between the client application host and the = application server host requires good IPv6 connectivity between the DNS = resolving server and the DNS content server. The obvious illustration that comes to mind is a host behind an Apple = AirPort Extreme base station at a public IPv4 address and configured in = 6to4 tunnel mode, but in a domain where the 6to4 relay service is = unreliable, badly-impaired or black-holed, and also configured to = forward its DNS queries to resolving servers that are dual-stack = IPv4/IPv6 capable. This configuration is sufficiently common that any = proposed solution to the problem must have an answer for it, and the = proposed solution doesn't deal with it at all. Shorter james: the proposed hack cannot solve the problem it intends to = solve, and it breaks other networks that work fine today. It should not = be endorsed. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 12:21:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D52343A6D9D for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:21:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.207 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.207 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.842, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cxCZDmcIgnQM for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8434A3A6A5D for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 11:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxlsN-000CRP-JI for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 18:45:51 +0000 Received: from [209.85.222.198] (helo=mail-pz0-f198.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxlsK-000CQs-NJ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 18:45:48 +0000 Received: by pzk36 with SMTP id 36so2111981pzk.24 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 11:45:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=zv+vqEObzkoVRUH0ryH/GPpjEYF+VXcK4ft2mpiMlhc=; b=dbXJWz8UCqydIKeMKcI2ma228EKCmdPOzSIz7srVq+QQyd+OlacBHfOdNUufhRQyBg w+26YJHFHEkHcdzh7bMvzUeivxeuRi4g1Iu7IyoAuVGYCxW9tvJt3GjnY089YAxXG1ko yQ9ZLf6TnbEqAWVxZXhFyV0btmHSfriXoIH2w= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=U5GVMxatKUydgi9b+5yM0K3ZRX9A7FRXrcScXD6L3s7h7GdPgtS3qtg75lzjvycq2o C48qQcgItnpye1SFFGmQTVDBsFETBV5Ud20WhiwhOhWSLX+1sUy2O14reOQ2OANh/vpL tEdE96axKa8iI+E62+4vVCw3+qN0AG/JP/g88= Received: by 10.143.153.42 with SMTP id f42mr930745wfo.299.1270233947882; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 11:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.202.2.47] (anlextwls002-047.wl.anl-external.org [130.202.2.47]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm288850iwn.6.2010.04.02.11.45.46 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 02 Apr 2010 11:45:47 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BB63B58.8030006@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 07:45:44 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com CC: =?UTF-8?B?UsOpbWkgRGVzcHLDqXM=?= , Ed Jankiewicz , IPv6 Operations , 6man Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation References: <4BB127CE.7020703@sri.com> <4BB60A4C.5090009@gmail.com> <2CF288DB-61F0-442B-BDBB-49AC4DB07BB9@free.fr> <20100402165552.GA7583@vacation.karoshi.com.> In-Reply-To: <20100402165552.GA7583@vacation.karoshi.com.> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Bill, On 2010-04-03 05:55, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: > On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 06:09:53PM +0200, Rimi Despris wrote: >>> Surely a better hack would be for recursive resolvers in IPv6-broken >>> networks not to serve up AAAA records at all? >> Agreed. >> >> RD > > aren't you making the assumption that the recursive resolver is > on/in the same broadcast domain as the stub which it is serving? > how can you ensure that the IP reachability of the stub is "semantically > simialar"** to the IP reachability of the recursive resolver? > > the DNS has no hooks into topological reachability. Correct, but a hack in this area by definition can't cover all cases. Er, much better to mend the IPv6 brokenness, of course. Brian > > ** identical, equivalent, etc... See IDN equivalence > > --bill > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 12:40:29 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCFC63A6B7C for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:40:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.469 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.469 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id NXh1iruBmM4d for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC1E43A6C74 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:06:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxmB9-000EiL-2w for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 19:05:15 +0000 Received: from [2001:418:1::81] (helo=nagasaki.bogus.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxmB6-000Ei5-DA for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 19:05:12 +0000 Received: from [192.103.16.191] ([192.103.16.191]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o32J5AMt056874 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-CAMELLIA256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:05:10 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) Message-ID: <4BB63FDC.7070102@bogus.com> Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 12:05:00 -0700 From: Joel Jaeggli User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux i686; en-US; rv:1.9.1.8) Gecko/20100322 Lightning/1.0b1 Thunderbird/3.0.3 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: james woodyatt CC: IPv6 Operations , 6man Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation References: <4BB127CE.7020703@sri.com> <4BB60A4C.5090009@gmail.com> <635027C3-455E-4DB3-84D1-9EE8C1856EF3@apple.com> In-Reply-To: <635027C3-455E-4DB3-84D1-9EE8C1856EF3@apple.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Greylist: Sender succeeded SMTP AUTH, not delayed by milter-greylist-4.2.2 (nagasaki.bogus.com [147.28.0.81]); Fri, 02 Apr 2010 19:05:10 +0000 (UTC) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 04/02/2010 11:11 AM, james woodyatt wrote: > On Apr 2, 2010, at 08:16, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> I do think that Google's solution to this, i.e. being selective >> about who gets the AAAA records in the first place, is much less of >> a hack, with less harmful side effects. > > While everyone else was in the 6MAN session, I was actually jumping > back and forth between 6MAN and DNSOP because I didn't want to miss > this presentation. As I pointed out at the microphone in DNSOP, the > proposed hack is absolutely broken because it relies on a pair of > TOTALLY INOPERATIVE ASSUMPTIONS: > > A) good IPv6 connectivity between the DNS resolving server and the > DNS content server implies good IPv6 connectivity between the client > application host and the application server host. > > B) good IPv6 connectivity between the client application host and the > application server host requires good IPv6 connectivity between the > DNS resolving server and the DNS content server. actually they don't rest on those assumptions. the assumption being made is that queriers who are customers of a given set of name-servers have available to them a particular kind of connectivity... this is exactly the same kind of assumption made when selectively returning different A records in an ipv4 global loading balancing setup. The consequences of getting it wrong in ipv4 are you go to a more distant instance of a service. The consequence of getting it wrong in ipv6 are you hand a AAAA record to a host that doesn't use it (this causes no harm) or you hand a AAAA record to host that shouldn't use it (because soemthing about their connectivity is broken). presumably the decision to make a particular set of queriers as blessed for the purpose of reciveing AAAA records is based on a judgement about the likelyhood of the hosts behind that resolver being non-broken. > The obvious illustration that comes to mind is a host behind an Apple > AirPort Extreme base station at a public IPv4 address and configured > in 6to4 tunnel mode, but in a domain where the 6to4 relay service is > unreliable, badly-impaired or black-holed, and also configured to > forward its DNS queries to resolving servers that are dual-stack > IPv4/IPv6 capable. This configuration is sufficiently common that > any proposed solution to the problem must have an answer for it, and > the proposed solution doesn't deal with it at all. > > Shorter james: the proposed hack cannot solve the problem it intends > to solve, and it breaks other networks that work fine today. It > should not be endorsed. > > > -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, > communications engineering > > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 12:55:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74CE03A6C26 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:55:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.702 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.702 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.368, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_MODEMCABLE=0.768, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, RCVD_NUMERIC_HELO=2.067, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aOzxQD0+8D+r for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:55:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3F8C3A6911 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:21:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxmMz-000GBC-EZ for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 19:17:29 +0000 Received: from [208.17.35.59] (helo=paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxmMw-000GAY-0w for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 19:17:26 +0000 Received: from ([24.40.15.92]) by paoakoavas10.cable.comcast.com with ESMTP id KP-TDCH7.79485489; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:17:05 -0400 Received: from PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) by PACDCEXCSMTP03.cable.comcast.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 2 Apr 2010 15:17:05 -0400 Received: from 147.191.227.127 ([147.191.227.127]) by PACDCEXCMB04.cable.comcast.com ([24.40.15.86]) via Exchange Front-End Server webmail.comcast.com ([24.40.8.153]) with Microsoft Exchange Server HTTP-DAV ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 19:17:04 +0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/12.24.0.100205 Date: Fri, 02 Apr 2010 15:17:09 -0400 Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation From: Jason Livingood To: james woodyatt , IPv6 Operations , 6man Message-ID: Thread-Topic: FYI: DNSOPS presentation Thread-Index: AcrSmRbt1VMdryaGbEyOTkw1qm5tbQ== In-Reply-To: <635027C3-455E-4DB3-84D1-9EE8C1856EF3@apple.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-OriginalArrivalTime: 02 Apr 2010 19:17:05.0003 (UTC) FILETIME=[148C03B0:01CAD299] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: I agree with what James just posted. Since this has hopped over to v6ops from dnsops, I thought I'd post here what I wrote over there, as I think it's important as we're working on solutions w/o a clear agreement on the problem: It seems that have the cart before the horse, so to speak. IMHO, we need to do the following (and there's no reason they cannot occur rapidly): 1 - Develop a clear problem statement that outlines (1) how "broken" users are defined and (2) what effects this "brokenness" has on these end users (or other parts of the Internet). 2 - Describe all the various methods and tactics by which end user "brokenness" can be detected. This may include website-based detection, DNS-query-based detection, or a variety of other methods. 3 - Then, after we have agreement on Problem Definition and Problem Detection, we can measure the problem to understand what the scope or scale of the problem is. 4 - After we understand Problem Definition, Problem Detection, and Problem Scope, then you can arrive at possible solutions. Seems like in this case we sort of *started* here, which concerns me and I think we need to be careful that discussion thus far does not constrain development of a full list of Solution Options. I further believe we will need to encourage the pursuit of multiple solutions simultaneously. Lastly, just because end user software upgrades may be difficult doesn't mean we shouldn't do them and shouldn't focus just as much energy on those than other options. Jason From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 13:00:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E0B73A6920 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:00:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -103.816 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-103.816 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.451, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-4, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Aq22Pd8aVCd5 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:00:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4583A3A6A51 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:27:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxmVa-000H1m-KU for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 19:26:22 +0000 Received: from [17.254.13.22] (helo=mail-out3.apple.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxmVX-000H1V-Np for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 19:26:19 +0000 Received: from relay16.apple.com (relay16.apple.com [17.128.113.55]) by mail-out3.apple.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3007A8C43211; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:26:19 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11807137-b7c52ae000004c84-9f-4bb644db7ea1 Received: from il0602b-dhcp250.apple.com (il0602b-dhcp250.apple.com [17.206.24.250]) (using TLS with cipher AES128-SHA (AES128-SHA/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay16.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 2F.0B.19588.BD446BB4; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:26:19 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: <4BB63FDC.7070102@bogus.com> Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 12:26:18 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <4BB127CE.7020703@sri.com> <4BB60A4C.5090009@gmail.com> <635027C3-455E-4DB3-84D1-9EE8C1856EF3@apple.com> <4BB63FDC.7070102@bogus.com> To: IPv6 Operations , 6man Mailing List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) X-Brightmail-Tracker: AAAAAQAAAZE= Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Apr 2, 2010, at 12:05, Joel Jaeggli wrote: >=20 > actually they don't rest on those assumptions. Actually, I spoke at length with Igor Gashinsky on Tuesday night at IETF = 77 before the presentation in DNSOP, and I'm pretty sure I accurately = characterized the assumptions behind his proposal. Where he and I disagree, I think, is on the question of whether the = assumptions are *operative*. He believes they are; I believe they are = not. It's *his* train set, though, so I suppose he can break it however = he wants. -- james woodyatt member of technical staff, communications engineering From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 13:55:26 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E3D3A6911 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:55:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.319 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.319 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.150, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L3AWPzz0c8YX for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:55:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D2933A6B5F for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:40:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nxnb0-000P4W-Fu for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 20:36:02 +0000 Received: from [2001:478:6:0:230:48ff:fe11:220a] (helo=vacation.karoshi.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nxnaw-000Oyk-PP for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 20:35:59 +0000 Received: from karoshi.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by vacation.karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id o32KZA58009398; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 20:35:10 GMT Received: (from bmanning@localhost) by karoshi.com (8.12.8/8.12.8/Submit) id o32KZ8DB009397; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 20:35:08 GMT Date: Fri, 2 Apr 2010 20:35:08 +0000 From: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com, =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , Ed Jankiewicz , IPv6 Operations , 6man Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation Message-ID: <20100402203508.GB9162@vacation.karoshi.com.> References: <4BB127CE.7020703@sri.com> <4BB60A4C.5090009@gmail.com> <2CF288DB-61F0-442B-BDBB-49AC4DB07BB9@free.fr> <20100402165552.GA7583@vacation.karoshi.com.> <4BB63B58.8030006@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <4BB63B58.8030006@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.4.1i Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Sat, Apr 03, 2010 at 07:45:44AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Bill, > > On 2010-04-03 05:55, bmanning@vacation.karoshi.com wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 06:09:53PM +0200, Rimi Despris wrote: > >>> Surely a better hack would be for recursive resolvers in IPv6-broken > >>> networks not to serve up AAAA records at all? > >> Agreed. > >> > >> RD > > > > aren't you making the assumption that the recursive resolver is > > on/in the same broadcast domain as the stub which it is serving? > > how can you ensure that the IP reachability of the stub is "semantically > > simialar"** to the IP reachability of the recursive resolver? > > > > the DNS has no hooks into topological reachability. > > Correct, but a hack in this area by definition can't cover all cases. does it even cover a statistically significant fraction of cases? > > Er, much better to mend the IPv6 brokenness, of course. then why not spend the energy/resouce on ensuring v6 transport works instead of wasting this on what is clearly a DNS haq for a temporary condition? Or is this a case of "when all we have is the DNS, everything looks like a query/response"? > > Brian > > > > > ** identical, equivalent, etc... See IDN equivalence > > > > --bill > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 14:01:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 292893A6A2D for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:01:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.661 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.661 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.025, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zQR5VZnHbYcX for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:01:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F8433A6B76 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 13:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nxnl5-0000TG-3b for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 20:46:27 +0000 Received: from [128.18.30.17] (helo=mail1.sri.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nxnl1-0000Sb-Hd for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 20:46:24 +0000 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_ovgxbQT6/l0Y/FRX2QIGSQ)" Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([unknown] [71.0.229.111]) by mail.sri.com (Sun Java(tm) System Messaging Server 7u2-7.05 32bit (built Jul 30 2009)) with ESMTPSA id <0L0700640QX4L3D0@mail.sri.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 01 Apr 2010 12:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-id: <4BB4F80E.4020706@sri.com> Date: Thu, 01 Apr 2010 15:46:22 -0400 From: Ed Jankiewicz User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.24 (Windows/20100228) To: 6man , IPv6 Operations , Behave WG , softwires@ietf.org Subject: applicability of RFC 5841 in node requirements bis Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ovgxbQT6/l0Y/FRX2QIGSQ) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Packets containing IPv6 traffic originating at an IPv6 host, routed by IPv6 routers and delivered to an IPv6 host without any intervening tunnels, protocol translation, NAT44, NAT64, NAT444, NAT666 or anything else besides native IPv6 SHOULD be marked as 'happy' using the TCP Packet Mood Option defined in RFC 5841. All other packets MAY be marked as 'sad', 'confused', 'surprised', 'silly', 'frustrated', 'angry', 'apathetic', 'sneaky' or 'evil' depending on your opinion of the intervening mechanism. (no need to explicitly reply to this posting, just mark your next packet to me as 'amused' or 'bored') -- Ed Jankiewicz - SRI International Fort Monmouth Branch Office - IPv6 Research Supporting DISA Standards Engineering Branch 732-389-1003 or ed.jankiewicz@sri.com --Boundary_(ID_ovgxbQT6/l0Y/FRX2QIGSQ) Content-type: text/html; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Packets containing IPv6 traffic originating at an IPv6 host, routed by IPv6 routers and delivered to an IPv6 host without any intervening tunnels, protocol translation, NAT44, NAT64, NAT444, NAT666 or anything else besides native IPv6 SHOULD be marked as 'happy' using the TCP Packet Mood Option defined in RFC 5841.

All other packets MAY be marked as 'sad', 'confused', 'surprised', 'silly', 'frustrated', 'angry', 'apathetic', 'sneaky' or 'evil' depending on your opinion of the intervening mechanism.

(no need to explicitly reply to this posting, just mark your next packet to me as 'amused' or 'bored')
-- 
Ed Jankiewicz - SRI International
Fort Monmouth Branch Office - IPv6 Research 
Supporting DISA Standards Engineering Branch
732-389-1003 or  ed.jankiewicz@sri.com
--Boundary_(ID_ovgxbQT6/l0Y/FRX2QIGSQ)-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 2 14:40:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EEEDC3A67C1 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:40:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.116 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.116 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.751, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AWw7-0TMOfuj for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:40:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E9C23A6862 for ; Fri, 2 Apr 2010 14:31:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxoRW-0005uI-4M for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 21:30:18 +0000 Received: from [209.85.160.180] (helo=mail-gy0-f180.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxoRT-0005ts-Oj for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 21:30:15 +0000 Received: by gyb13 with SMTP id 13so635564gyb.11 for ; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 14:30:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=xutU7Qzeapy7krrXnw/gNP9kkOuV6z35Y5SyJnISVvI=; b=rrYx/F/T5oT6+yp/7ytWnJpG7hu2YpxXt/IlQ1RV6aTzqlEc4mq1PkRw6gd45YdjU7 VW0EUFM6lYCcdULvwU767wqLkFzHE/ui5/Cw/2daSslROEyI/xgqbb6JLwR48XSN9/Km U8eT/kxSSE9L9iNqGbgbdge4MMRkU9x77lJV8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=uEbhlkxMvD/M7rfxvJri3F+D1Urvcnm7pk2iaAOyok66M813NuVu90UPE3dO0IlOi0 jOxdD7mUvQ93Vb16uafO5WaZRFgpgGKzoC1ID2akw34H1WygYjPtwZxAVxEmw8ejnrG0 JA3JtBcBtyUNctXR35NpQitF4NLVshv3PUn7o= Received: by 10.101.125.4 with SMTP id c4mr7119049ann.225.1270243813980; Fri, 02 Apr 2010 14:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.202.2.47] (anlextwls002-047.wl.anl-external.org [130.202.2.47]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 22sm229237iwn.0.2010.04.02.14.30.13 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Fri, 02 Apr 2010 14:30:13 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BB661E2.30407@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 10:30:10 +1300 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Igor Gashinsky CC: Ed Jankiewicz , IPv6 Operations , 6man Subject: Re: [IPv6] Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation References: <4BB127CE.7020703@sri.com> <4BB60A4C.5090009@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-04-03 09:57, Igor Gashinsky wrote: ... > :: Surely a better hack would be for recursive resolvers in IPv6-broken > :: networks not to serve up AAAA records at all? Tunnel users could > :: always find another resolver. > > It is the same hack. Not if applied administratively, and reversed administratively when the v6 brokenness is fixed. From a network ops point of view, this is much cleaner than automated detection, and will also put the responsibility in the right place: the network manager who has not deployed v6. And early adopters who want to bypass the hack can simply configure a DNS server that does deliver AAAA. Brian Brian You would use that very same feature that was > developed to accomplish this (filter-aaaa) -- what's more, when your > network stops being v6-broken, you get the extra benefit that the users > who can query your dns resolvers over ipv6 can now get AAAA's as first > step of rollout... > > -igor > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Apr 3 02:07:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6BF343A693D for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 02:07:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -98.455 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-98.455 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, J_CHICKENPOX_13=0.6, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e0BghLu6zqVR for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 02:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 39A5E3A684D for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 02:07:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxzEv-000ELw-Ri for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:02:01 +0000 Received: from [2001:470:1f09:92d::b] (helo=waikiki.gih.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NxzEr-000EKn-2G for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 09:01:57 +0000 Received: from waikiki.gih.co.uk (localhost6.localdomain6 [IPv6:::1]) by waikiki.gih.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26CA518F3AD; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 10:01:52 +0100 (BST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=gih.com; h=message-id:date :from:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; s=mahalo1; bh=UiF+QS+8G 0HRs5IuLHQdPCQJRA8=; b=ew+OaN3OAh75Z+nWf/5yTT+4FvQJGalVGuqmC6iz0 dMjucN5uhPnArAZHsXrL9EuWn6rm+q9rZbqodsQZYtL5jsjaCqAIem8ohvc+HP2J VmtUWXw+V4anQXT8dkyT9XU975ezlvpqM7chLD0Y2Dlbo2GZ9TeUGN4O/qc78Kk2 TA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gih.com; h=message-id:date :from:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; q=dns; s=mahalo1; b=M/c AL/QZpenjz8JgHgIRbfELGOzGbZNjrk1qCJX6T5ZZSV3T6KTQXAatlmh5I+gKnMs b8NHe/tEqQlvhW6j5Fk28K35BYgBiHRCgkbyx0G1HnhGw1BSIBb7dI0+ZzAp7T+c fZPXmQg2GdiE8Fgk7cqWFf1KQouo5djwcCP1mkD8= Received: from [192.168.1.45] (ANice-151-1-80-28.w86-193.abo.wanadoo.fr [86.193.242.28]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by waikiki.gih.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 14DA918F3AC; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 10:01:50 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4BB70402.3010700@gih.com> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 11:01:54 +0200 From: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; fr; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100317 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Jason Livingood CC: james woodyatt , IPv6 Operations , 6man Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation References: In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 02/04/2010 21:17, Jason Livingood wrote : > I agree with what James just posted. > > Since this has hopped over to v6ops from dnsops, I thought I'd post her= e > what I wrote over there, as I think it's important as we're working on > solutions w/o a clear agreement on the problem: > > It seems that have the cart before the horse, so to speak. IMHO, we ne= ed to > do the following (and there's no reason they cannot occur rapidly): > > 1 - Develop a clear problem statement that outlines (1) how "broken" us= ers > are defined and (2) what effects this "brokenness" has on these end use= rs > (or other parts of the Internet). > > 2 - Describe all the various methods and tactics by which end user > "brokenness" can be detected. This may include website-based detection= , > DNS-query-based detection, or a variety of other methods. > > 3 - Then, after we have agreement on Problem Definition and Problem > Detection, we can measure the problem to understand what the scope or s= cale > of the problem is.=20 > > 4 - After we understand Problem Definition, Problem Detection, and Prob= lem > Scope, then you can arrive at possible solutions. Completely in agreement, although I'd like to add "...and whether such solutions are required." I feel uneasy messing around with the DNS by introducing "ugly hacks" to resolve a problem with "0.078% of people", thus affecting 99.922% of people who had no problem and who might then end up having a problem due to the hack. Agreed, 470K people is no small number, but we have to look at the bigger picture with 600M people. If we start designing Internet techno to look at the lowest common denominator, we're in for a very bad ride. Warmest regards, Olivier --=20 Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html From uo@megatron.ietf.org Sat Apr 3 03:08:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6EBB3A684A for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 03:08:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 03:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aliroo.com (unknown [91.99.137.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B89163A67FE for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 03:07:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Important notice: Google Apps browser support To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100403100701.B89163A67FE@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 03:07:00 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Apr 3 06:51:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F396E3A67F4 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 06:51:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.061 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.061 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.671, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EC6KoRg-BCXX for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 06:51:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D7123A67A1 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 06:51:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ny3fa-000FaJ-97 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 13:45:50 +0000 Received: from [212.27.42.6] (helo=smtp6-g21.free.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ny3fX-000FZq-1T for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 13:45:47 +0000 Received: from smtp6-g21.free.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp6-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D0C9E080C1; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:45:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.13] (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by smtp6-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 35F13E080FB; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:45:37 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1077) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= In-Reply-To: <635027C3-455E-4DB3-84D1-9EE8C1856EF3@apple.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:45:35 +0200 Cc: James Woodyatt Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8FE2936E-C73F-4ED2-A84F-E37A59696BAF@free.fr> References: <4BB127CE.7020703@sri.com> <4BB60A4C.5090009@gmail.com> <635027C3-455E-4DB3-84D1-9EE8C1856EF3@apple.com> To: IPv6 Operations , 6man 6man X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1077) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Le 2 avr. 2010 =E0 20:11, james woodyatt a =E9crit : > Shorter james: the proposed hack cannot solve the problem it intends = to solve, and it breaks other networks that work fine today. It should = not be endorsed. +1 An approach that would break what works today in IPv6 MUST be rejected. It remains that a clear description of which problem is encountered, and = by which organization, might help to find a acceptable solution. RD From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Apr 3 08:16:09 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83F973A689F for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 08:16:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.251, BAYES_00=-2.599, DNS_FROM_OPENWHOIS=1.13, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CJhhzpzl+wjQ for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 08:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62A053A67F2 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 08:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ny50z-000NMi-SZ for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 15:12:01 +0000 Received: from [87.238.49.141] (helo=mailhub.linpro.no) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ny50u-000NM7-IR for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 15:11:56 +0000 Received: from localhost (mailhub.linpro.no [87.238.49.141]) by mailhub.linpro.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FFE4C43BD; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 17:11:54 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mailhub.linpro.no Received: from mailhub.linpro.no ([87.238.49.141]) by localhost (mailhub.linpro.no [87.238.49.141]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N1i1EYxMRfGk; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 17:11:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zimbra.redpill-linpro.com (claudius.linpro.no [87.238.49.234]) by mailhub.linpro.no (Postfix) with ESMTP; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 17:11:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.redpill-linpro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C91F170C002; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 17:11:46 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at claudius.linpro.no Received: from zimbra.redpill-linpro.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.redpill-linpro.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id veOxHwjV8PQ0; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 17:11:45 +0200 (CEST) Received: from envy.fud.no (stat.linpro.no [87.238.42.2]) by zimbra.redpill-linpro.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 73E55170C001; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 17:11:45 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4BB75AB0.40409@redpill-linpro.com> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 17:11:44 +0200 From: Tore Anderson Organization: Redpill Linpro AS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100330 Fedora/3.0.4-1.fc12 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond CC: Jason Livingood , james woodyatt , IPv6 Operations , 6man Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation References: <4BB70402.3010700@gih.com> In-Reply-To: <4BB70402.3010700@gih.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, * Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond > Completely in agreement, although I'd like to add "...and whether > such solutions are required." Currently, the number of end users who can connect to a single-stack IPv4 web site is greater than the number of end users who can connect to a dual-stack web site. This situation must change, or you won't be seeing much IPv6 content appearing on the internet anytime soon. > I feel uneasy messing around with the DNS by introducing "ugly hacks" > to resolve a problem with "0.078% of people", thus affecting 99.922% > of people who had no problem and who might then end up having a > problem due to the hack. The obvious "solution" to this is currently to _not_ deploy IPv6 on existing content. For now, that will keep ~100% of users happy, and doesn't require any DNS hacks/whitelists to be maintained. But I still would like to deploy IPv6 somehow. Suggestions on how exactly I can go about doing that, without messing around with DNS or breaking connectivity for users who up until now have had no problems, would be greatly appreciated. Best regards, -- Tore Anderson Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com/ Tel: +47 21 54 41 27 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Apr 3 11:13:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D541B3A6953 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 11:13:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.524, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KtBao6BVhCzl for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 11:13:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82D3D3A698F for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 11:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ny7k5-000CKi-95 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 18:06:45 +0000 Received: from [87.238.49.141] (helo=mailhub.linpro.no) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Ny7k0-000CJv-S0 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 18:06:41 +0000 Received: from localhost (mailhub.linpro.no [87.238.49.141]) by mailhub.linpro.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id D74B8C4046; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 20:06:38 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mailhub.linpro.no Received: from mailhub.linpro.no ([87.238.49.141]) by localhost (mailhub.linpro.no [87.238.49.141]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7mM+x-0zCHpF; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 20:06:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zimbra.redpill-linpro.com (claudius.linpro.no [87.238.49.234]) by mailhub.linpro.no (Postfix) with ESMTP; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 20:06:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.redpill-linpro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F99E170C002; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 20:06:30 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at claudius.linpro.no Received: from zimbra.redpill-linpro.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.redpill-linpro.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1LZwGnxfbcpo; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 20:06:28 +0200 (CEST) Received: from envy.fud.no (62.80-203-46.nextgentel.com [80.203.46.62]) by zimbra.redpill-linpro.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 15842170C001; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 20:06:28 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4BB783A3.3020500@redpill-linpro.com> Date: Sat, 03 Apr 2010 20:06:27 +0200 From: Tore Anderson Organization: Redpill Linpro AS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100330 Fedora/3.0.4-1.fc12 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Andrews CC: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond , IPv6 Operations , 6man , Jason Livingood Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation References: <4BB70402.3010700@gih.com> <4BB75AB0.40409@redpill-linpro.com> <201004031544.o33Fi6oT033111@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <201004031544.o33Fi6oT033111@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Mark, * Mark Andrews > You turn IPv6 on a service at a time. Turn it on for delay tolerent > services. e.g. SMTP. Turn it of for services which try different > servers quickly. e.g. DNS. Turn it on for the client side. Sure thing, I've already done some of those, but it won't really change much. There's no real reason for a end-user to contact my SMTP or DNS servers directly, as he will normally relay e-mail/DNS queries via his own ISPs servers anyway. And the fact that all the workstations at my office have native IPv6 connectivity doesn't have any effect on all the broken end users in other networks. The problematic service is without question the web sites. > There may be few place to connect to now but the ratio of good to > bad will get better as more people turn up IPv6 as a production > service on the client side. Absolutely. I'm sure that at some point in the future there'll be more end users able to connect to a dualstacked web site than there is end users able to connect to a IPv4-only site. At that point you'll see lots of IPv6 content showing up. No problem. However, when will that point in time be? The way it's going right now it seems to me that it will be well after IPv4 pool is exhausted, when the IPv4 internet is starting really to crumble under CGNs and other life-extending band-aids. I'm more impatient than that though, and don't want to just sit around and wait until then. It appears other content providers like Yahoo and Google don't either. But short of resorting to DNS tricks, or attempting to persuade all the end users' ISPs and/or software vendors to fix their problems, I really don't see what else can be done. By the way I actively pursue the option of asking problematic networks and software vendors to fix their problems. It's a very slow process, though. Even when software patches are released, it takes lots of time before a sufficient amount of end-users have applied them. Best regards, -- Tore Anderson Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com/ Tel: +47 21 54 41 27 From uk@megatron.ietf.org Sat Apr 3 15:45:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1A1E3A6823 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:45:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allendorf-lda.de (unknown [186.87.88.127]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 1160C3A6405 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:45:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Your Future Order with 75% off retail To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100403224502.1160C3A6405@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 15:45:00 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sat Apr 3 16:42:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 854543A697B for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 16:42:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.372 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.372 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.248, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AWEXVDWAcA14 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 16:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9DC0C3A6967 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 16:42:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NyCu4-000Csa-VF for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:37:24 +0000 Received: from [209.85.160.52] (helo=mail-pw0-f52.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NyCu1-000Cs5-R8 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 23:37:22 +0000 Received: by pwi1 with SMTP id 1so2228098pwi.11 for ; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 16:37:21 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BwNwAhG3meZ3oOWxBtqq2kWttsJW42chcxrp7HvCz7I=; b=NJu0LURo0JsbyKHj9aMbzkSe0CpIJO6+T8uTmlYPZRCgOP+K9gjiDT6VJO1t40ecCm n/9326NON2hCsSNyeOEAEJRmshtAtVaVMFIcfvso4sFKECDsTQMJIydMzuHOU4mohKxf NnNyEDy60dEMeQF/dP8qybju/fSJBX4KA5o1g= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=ZkYJvkvu3QqXZBk04Kde5cYvMFnr1g0TC6Oalh2PcRcUS/6zCrJ3UGcAk7MnIDyb63 oTMeGS6jys0h5AFmybyG1qkMTrs9vciBxJIxkDpG6cy4rIZ9bG/0Xm5S1gE60ugW1eT1 ntu7Rk+bntzawQmGmcpzxSI4Q3AML5r+8FkTI= Received: by 10.114.248.20 with SMTP id v20mr3467298wah.65.1270337840255; Sat, 03 Apr 2010 16:37:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.160.234] ([12.172.25.68]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm9425903pzk.2.2010.04.03.16.37.17 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sat, 03 Apr 2010 16:37:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BB7D125.6050209@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 04 Apr 2010 11:37:09 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Tore Anderson CC: Mark Andrews , Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond , IPv6 Operations , Jason Livingood , 6man Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation References: <4BB70402.3010700@gih.com> <4BB75AB0.40409@redpill-linpro.com> <201004031544.o33Fi6oT033111@drugs.dv.isc.org> <4BB783A3.3020500@redpill-linpro.com> In-Reply-To: <4BB783A3.3020500@redpill-linpro.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On 2010-04-04 06:06, Tore Anderson wrote: ... > By the way I actively pursue the option of asking problematic networks > and software vendors to fix their problems. It's a very slow process, > though. Even when software patches are released, it takes lots of time > before a sufficient amount of end-users have applied them. We used to do a lot of that about 20 years ago when IPv4 connectivity and applications support was patchy. The Internet only works today because the message eventually got through (or the providers and vendors who didn't get the message vanished). There's no short cut. Brian From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Sat Apr 3 20:06:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AFB73A65A6 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 20:06:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -34.255 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-34.255 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, DIET_1=0.083, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, HTML_FONT_SIZE_LARGE=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RATWARE_MS_HASH=1.398, RATWARE_OUTLOOK_NONAME=2.171, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_PH_SURBL=1.787, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WGniPyV15Y3q for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 20:06:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from addr22.pptp.fliknet.ru (addr22.pptp.fliknet.ru [93.88.161.22]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id ACC733A6359 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 20:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <0a9e01cad3e6$d7fad800$16a1585d@xpsp3-pc> From: v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive April 80% 0FF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-type: text/html; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 20:06:12 -0700 (PDT) Welcome to Men's Health News
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From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Sat Apr 3 23:56:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C17AA3A68C3 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 23:56:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: <0xOU9tPd2bxj> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 23:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 196-95-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net (196-95-95-178.pool.ukrtel.net [178.95.95.196]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B111B3A67B5 for ; Sat, 3 Apr 2010 23:56:40 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Important notice: Google To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100404065640.B111B3A67B5@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 3 Apr 2010 23:56:40 -0700 (PDT)
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From uri-review-request@megatron.ietf.org Sun Apr 4 13:28:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A21A528C0CE for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:28:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 125-230-9-251.dynamic.hinet.net (125-230-9-251.dynamic.hinet.net [125.230.9.251]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5C55C3A69C6 for ; Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:28:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Your Future Order with 70% off retail To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100404202817.5C55C3A69C6@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 4 Apr 2010 13:28:16 -0700 (PDT)
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From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Mon Apr 5 01:45:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC39D3A6872 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 01:45:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: \251 Pfizer Inc \256 1[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -23.803 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-23.803 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_MIME_NO_HTML_TAG=0.097, MANGLED_OFF=2.3, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_PH_SURBL=1.787, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c8cn4EztbJYw for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 01:45:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h109-187-159-130.dyn.bashtel.ru (h109-187-159-130.dyn.bashtel.ru [109.187.159.130]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D3F0B3A6817 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 01:45:38 -0700 (PDT) From: © Pfizer Inc ® 1966-2010 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear v6ops-archive@ietf.org April 93% 0FF MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100405084538.D3F0B3A6817@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 01:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Canadian Doctor Dirk Best Price On Net http://regionflower.ru From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 02:53:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81EED3A68B8 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 02:53:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.524 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.524 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.524, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RJhv8CXhTVnC for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 02:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60A2C3A68AA for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 02:53:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nyisg-000OyE-Ht for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 09:46:06 +0000 Received: from [87.238.49.141] (helo=mailhub.linpro.no) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nyisc-000Oxi-Ej for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 09:46:02 +0000 Received: from localhost (mailhub.linpro.no [87.238.49.141]) by mailhub.linpro.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D541CC569; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 11:45:59 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mailhub.linpro.no Received: from mailhub.linpro.no ([87.238.49.141]) by localhost (mailhub.linpro.no [87.238.49.141]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vxUcb3py57zQ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 11:45:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from zimbra.redpill-linpro.com (claudius.linpro.no [87.238.49.234]) by mailhub.linpro.no (Postfix) with ESMTP; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 11:45:52 +0200 (CEST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.redpill-linpro.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 277F4170C002; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 11:45:52 +0200 (CEST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at claudius.linpro.no Received: from zimbra.redpill-linpro.com ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.redpill-linpro.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dbCpRRmVO97i; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 11:45:51 +0200 (CEST) Received: from envy.fud.no (stat.linpro.no [87.238.42.2]) by zimbra.redpill-linpro.com (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 655CA170C001; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 11:45:51 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: <4BB9B14E.7080409@redpill-linpro.com> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 11:45:50 +0200 From: Tore Anderson Organization: Redpill Linpro AS User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; U; Linux x86_64; en-US; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100330 Fedora/3.0.4-1.fc12 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Andrews CC: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond , IPv6 Operations , 6man , Jason Livingood Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation References: <4BB70402.3010700@gih.com> <4BB75AB0.40409@redpill-linpro.com> <201004050344.o353iDNg017254@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <201004050344.o353iDNg017254@drugs.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi Mark, * Mark Andrews > The first thing is to publish a complete description of the testing > methodology and envionment. So far I havn't see it. I've posted descriptions a couple of times before: http://lists.cluenet.de/pipermail/ipv6-ops/2009-November/002658.html http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dnsop/current/msg08406.html Have a look, and don't hesitate to let me know if you're still wondering about something. > Most of the transition technology involves encapsulation so was the > mtu set to prevent pmtud being triggered due to encapsulation in > IPv4? I haven't set the MTU explicitly, but the objects that are being served are (intentionally) very small, so I never transmit any packets that are anywhere near 1280 octets. However I see that I occasionally receive incoming packets that exceed 1280 (HTTP requests with large amounts of header information). I will try to reduce the advertised TCP MSS to prevent PMTUD in the inbound direction from ever becoming an issue. These jumbo requests occur very seldom though, so I'll be very surprised if the lowered MSS will make a noticeable impact on the measured client loss. Thank you for your feedback! BR, -- Tore Anderson Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com/ Tel: +47 21 54 41 27 From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 03:32:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 182C93A68D7 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 03:32:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=1.300, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GnbJdPL9ESX9 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 03:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B87003A68D4 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 03:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NyjZ5-0002re-Jq for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 10:29:55 +0000 Received: from [2001:608:2:2::250] (helo=moebius3.space.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NyjZ2-0002r4-2F for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 10:29:52 +0000 Received: (qmail 2749 invoked by uid 1007); 5 Apr 2010 12:29:48 +0200 Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 12:29:48 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: james woodyatt Cc: IPv6 Operations , 6man Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation Message-ID: <20100405102948.GL69383@Space.Net> References: <4BB127CE.7020703@sri.com> <4BB60A4C.5090009@gmail.com> <635027C3-455E-4DB3-84D1-9EE8C1856EF3@apple.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <635027C3-455E-4DB3-84D1-9EE8C1856EF3@apple.com> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, On Fri, Apr 02, 2010 at 11:11:03AM -0700, james woodyatt wrote: > Shorter james: the proposed hack cannot solve the problem it intends to solve, and it breaks other networks that work fine today. It should not be endorsed. Seconded. (I can't remember how many times I have written in the last 10 years that the transport protocol used for DNS queries coming from recursor servers has nothing whatsoever to do with the transport protocol capabilities of the client sending the DNS query - even without any caching involved) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 150584 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From secmech-request@lists.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 04:04:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB5273A68C8 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 04:04:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 04:04:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailhost.zabs.org.zm (mailhost.zabs.org.zm [196.46.195.236]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id C8BEA3A692D for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 04:03:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Your Future Order with 74% off retail To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100405110404.C8BEA3A692D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 04:03:58 -0700 (PDT)
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From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 04:48:56 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DD723A6938 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 04:48:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.917 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.917 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_TELESP=1.245, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_28=1.561, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN02=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_PH_SURBL=1.787, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VfxiLxyFXjin for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 04:48:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 201-27-19-164.dsl.telesp.net.br (201-27-19-164.dsl.telesp.net.br [201.27.19.164]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE7B23A6966 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 04:48:54 -0700 (PDT) From: "Approved VIAGRA e-store" To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Wassup v6ops-archive, your personal 80% discount code is 8929171 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100405114854.AE7B23A6966@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 04:48:54 -0700 (PDT) News
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 06:51:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73B9F28C10C for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 06:51:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id petiWOkNFGII for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 06:51:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D795028C117 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 06:51:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nymcv-0000kx-Ou for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 13:46:05 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nymcs-0000kP-DM for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 13:46:03 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,366,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="98971620" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Apr 2010 13:46:00 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com [72.163.63.9]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o35Dk0Kx029786; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:46:00 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) by xbh-rcd-302.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 5 Apr 2010 08:46:00 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 08:45:59 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Thread-Index: AcrTCaNH/25duk7bSC2AD8z2jiCpkQBux9hQ References: <1EEC7D49-21D4-4EBD-9CF9-B7D29D32F9CE@cisco.com> <0B35BBAF-1144-4D08-B6FA-CE54C9E0584E@cisco.com> From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" To: "Philip Homburg" Cc: "Ole Troan" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Apr 2010 13:46:00.0597 (UTC) FILETIME=[53AD7450:01CAD4C6] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >>This presented quite some difficulty for NTT as an operator - as they=20 >>had to restrict themselves in what they could do in terms of address=20 >>space conservation in order to support a strong host model CPE router -=20 >>and this warning was in a previous version of the CPE router=20 >>specification. We should actively discourage people from building and >>using strong host model CPE routers. > >I guess I'm missing something obvious here. > >An unnumbered link can only occur i.c.w. prefix delegation (otherwise the CPE wouln't have any=20 >addresses at all). > >Now instead of assigning an address from its prefix to a virtual interface, the CPE assigns the > address to the uplink interface. > >This allows the CPE to implement the strong host model, and doesn't require any cooperation from > the ISP. > >So, what is wrong with that scenario? Section 12.1 of RFC 3633 forbids it: "the requesting router MUST NOT assign any delegated prefixes or subnets from the delegated prefix(es) to the link through which it received the DHCP message from the delegating router." - Wes From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 06:52:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B7B928C11C for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 06:52:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tHHNpEV0bMCJ for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 06:52:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C9BD28C10C for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 06:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NymiO-0001R7-W0 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 13:51:45 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NymiM-0001Qg-NP for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 13:51:42 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,366,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="98973154" Received: from rcdn-core-3.cisco.com ([173.37.93.154]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Apr 2010 13:51:41 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com [72.163.62.138]) by rcdn-core-3.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o35Dpf6E017982; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:51:41 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) by xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 5 Apr 2010 08:51:41 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: FW: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 08:51:40 -0500 Message-ID: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Thread-Index: AcrTCaNH/25duk7bSC2AD8z2jiCpkQBux9hQAAB+9IA= From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" To: Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Apr 2010 13:51:41.0249 (UTC) FILETIME=[1EB8D310:01CAD4C7] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >>This presented quite some difficulty for NTT as an operator - as they=20 >>had to restrict themselves in what they could do in terms of address=20 >>space conservation in order to support a strong host model CPE router=20 >>- and this warning was in a previous version of the CPE router=20 >>specification. We should actively discourage people from building and >>using strong host model CPE routers. > >I guess I'm missing something obvious here. > >An unnumbered link can only occur i.c.w. prefix delegation (otherwise=20 >the CPE wouln't have any addresses at all). > >Now instead of assigning an address from its prefix to a virtual=20 >interface, the CPE assigns the address to the uplink interface. > >This allows the CPE to implement the strong host model, and doesn't=20 >require any cooperation from the ISP. > >So, what is wrong with that scenario? Section 12.1 of RFC 3633 forbids it: "the requesting router MUST NOT assign any delegated prefixes or subnets from the delegated prefix(es) to the link through which it received the DHCP message from the delegating router." - Wes From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 09:24:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60CC13A67DF for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 09:24:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102.598 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102.598 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3q22k1Ta0myE for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 09:24:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173853A6A02 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 09:24:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nyp2S-000MBt-Hn for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 16:20:36 +0000 Received: from [2001:470:1f09:92d::b] (helo=waikiki.gih.co.uk) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nyp2O-000MBQ-4L for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 16:20:33 +0000 Received: from waikiki.gih.co.uk (localhost6.localdomain6 [IPv6:::1]) by waikiki.gih.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0259018F3AF; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 17:20:29 +0100 (BST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=gih.com; h=message-id:date :from:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type; s=mahalo1; bh=1wqmPcUdNlwDrB3ZEw6h/Xec48Q=; b=eSE 9pQuVykZ1AwS/NsyjFY/b2mxvuZbIR5Zev84t+9mqfuUknabbwjIJOFMcZvRbnw/ MnUgaxk0lnShD8oHt+noM8LuV91GyBFOIolHJunWpt5lJjQPKYzOqAqzM1zf/bhF wsFoP2u6EgonoumyoILpAJ5cCAQDvvWsY1LE/Peo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gih.com; h=message-id:date :from:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references:in-reply-to :content-type; q=dns; s=mahalo1; b=CcQQB3DbgJ428I4ZEFyKbVIBIsWMG wPCmfaZKF6QCmhPRy3UrR9vJ7A6EgFd9IqjEok6If+L11/nCYU5hK+/UUwRfj+gF qzZYH13KmP6Q4D0hpr+Z+0EBiGcQFjFxlqqq8avPgFnS0Lqlt84z7YoNKLcIX50z 8Sb4dizRUvV0jk= Received: from [192.168.1.45] (ANice-151-1-80-28.w86-193.abo.wanadoo.fr [86.193.242.28]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by waikiki.gih.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 96FEA18F3AB; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 17:20:27 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <4BBA0DD3.4050706@gih.com> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 18:20:35 +0200 From: Olivier MJ Crepin-Leblond User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; fr; rv:1.9.1.9) Gecko/20100317 Thunderbird/3.0.4 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mark Andrews CC: Tore Anderson , IPv6 Operations , 6man , Jason Livingood Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation References: <4BB70402.3010700@gih.com> <4BB75AB0.40409@redpill-linpro.com> <201004031544.o33Fi6oT033111@drugs.dv.isc.org> In-Reply-To: <201004031544.o33Fi6oT033111@drugs.dv.isc.org> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.0.1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050606050004090605040006" Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050606050004090605040006 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Le 03/04/2010 17:44, Mark Andrews a =E9crit : > > You turn IPv6 on a service at a time. Turn it on for delay tolerent > services. e.g. SMTP. Turn it of for services which try different > servers quickly. e.g. DNS. Turn it on for the client side. There > may be few place to connect to now but the ratio of good to bad > will get better as more people turn up IPv6 as a production service > on the client side. > > =20 This works exactly in line with what I have been suggesting my corporate clients should do when they are looking at implementing IPv6. A copy of my presentation slides can be found on: http://www.slideshare.net/ocl999/suggestion-for-an-ipv6-roll-out Turning the delay tolerant services on, migrating such services to dual stack, enables personnel to gain real IPv6 traffic & admin experience with minimal potential disruption - at low cost. I realise that I am digressing from the matter in the subject, so I'll stop here. Kindest regards, Olivier --=20 Olivier MJ Cr=E9pin-Leblond, PhD http://www.gih.com/ocl.html --------------050606050004090605040006 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Le 03/04/2010 17:44, Mark Andrews a écrit : 

You turn IPv6 on a service at a time.  Turn it on for delay tolerent
services.  e.g. SMTP.  Turn it of for services which try different
servers quickly.  e.g. DNS.  Turn it on for the client side.  There
may be few place to connect to now but the ratio of good to bad
will get better as more people turn up IPv6 as a production service
on the client side.

This works exactly in line with what I have been suggesting my corporate clients should do when they are looking at implementing IPv6.
A copy of my presentation slides can be found on:
http://www.slideshare.net/ocl999/suggestion-for-an-ipv6-roll-out

Turning the delay tolerant services on, migrating such services to dual stack, enables personnel to gain real IPv6 traffic & admin experience with minimal potential disruption - at low cost.
I realise that I am digressing from the matter in the subject, so I'll stop here.

Kindest regards,

Olivier

-- 
Olivier MJ Crépin-Leblond, PhD
http://www.gih.com/ocl.html
--------------050606050004090605040006-- From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Mon Apr 5 10:09:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4749E3A686C for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:09:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: USA \251 Doctor Carrie [...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -69.958 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-69.958 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_12=2.46, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B42shZmrnJBM for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 189-87-172-229.poolip.VTA.embratel.net.br (189-87-172-229.poolip.VTA.embratel.net.br [189.87.172.229]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 98C293A684D for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:09:08 -0700 (PDT) From: USA © Doctor Carrie To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear v6ops-archive@ietf.org April 52% OFF. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100405170908.98C293A684D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:09:08 -0700 (PDT)
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From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 10:09:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F6AA3A686C for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:09:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: <8YDonMl9bNkD> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: USA \251 Doctor Carrie [...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -69.958 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-69.958 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_12=2.46, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8YDonMl9bNkD for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 189-87-172-229.poolip.VTA.embratel.net.br (189-87-172-229.poolip.VTA.embratel.net.br [189.87.172.229]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B1D893A684D for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:09:10 -0700 (PDT) From: USA © Doctor Carrie To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Dear v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org April 52% OFF. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100405170910.B1D893A684D@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 10:09:10 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 11:49:50 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B16A53A6852 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 11:49:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LkXCWxytS+8j for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 11:49:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21BC03A692C for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 11:49:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NyrHe-000FBM-Lq for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 18:44:26 +0000 Received: from [130.37.15.35] (helo=stereo.hq.phicoh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NyrHc-000FB5-41 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 18:44:24 +0000 Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #2) id m1NyrHU-0001bZC; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 20:44 +0200 Message-Id: To: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ot@cisco.com Subject: Re: FW: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 From: Philip Homburg In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 5 Apr 2010 08:51:40 -0500 ." Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:44:15 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: In your letter dated Mon, 5 Apr 2010 08:51:40 -0500 you wrote: >>So, what is wrong with that scenario? > >Section 12.1 of RFC 3633 forbids it: > >"the requesting router MUST NOT assign any delegated prefixes or subnets >from the delegated prefix(es) to the link through which it received the >DHCP message from the delegating router." I know, but why? I always see a MUST NOT as something that would cause major harm or interoperability problems. But the DHCP PD RFC just says 'MUST NOT' without giving any reason what so ever. So maybe it is time to revisit that requirement instead of using that to force the weak host model onto CPEs. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 12:46:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FDD43A67B7 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 12:46:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MmCT4jYVNGqB for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 12:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8785F3A696F for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 12:46:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NysDf-000MO9-CW for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 19:44:23 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.141] (helo=ams-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NysDc-000MNp-Gr for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 19:44:20 +0000 Authentication-Results: ams-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,366,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="5200622" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Apr 2010 19:09:07 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-55-91-225.cisco.com (dhcp-10-55-91-225.cisco.com [10.55.91.225]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o35JiHKw026075; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 19:44:17 GMT Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 21:44:17 +0200 Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> References: To: Philip Homburg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >>> So, what is wrong with that scenario? >>=20 >> Section 12.1 of RFC 3633 forbids it: >>=20 >> "the requesting router MUST NOT assign any delegated prefixes or = subnets >> from the delegated prefix(es) to the link through which it received = the >> DHCP message from the delegating router." >=20 > I know, but why? >=20 > I always see a MUST NOT as something that would cause major harm or > interoperability problems. But the DHCP PD RFC just says 'MUST NOT' = without > giving any reason what so ever. >=20 > So maybe it is time to revisit that requirement instead of using that = to=20 > force the weak host model onto CPEs. the reason for that "MUST NOT" is to prohibit path of the delegated = prefix from being used on the DR - RR link. if the DR chose to use part = of the delegated prefix, that would be hard for the RR to detect and = could potentially conflict with the RR's own use of the delegated = prefix. "delegation" implies that the DR transfers control of the prefix = to the RR. this doesn't necessarily prohibit the RR from doing what you suggest. = but, I haven't understood what problem you are trying to solve. could = you expand on that? cheers, Ole From urn-ietf@ietf.org Mon Apr 5 13:13:59 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0C353A69DE for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:13:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:13:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from almaden.ibm.com (unknown [213.109.54.198]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D7A9D3A6A83 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:09:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Confirmation ref # [143765] To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100405200958.D7A9D3A6A83@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:09:55 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 13:57:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C69E3A6A07 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:57:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2VgTuEkvdyiA for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE95F3A684C for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:57:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NytIM-0004Sm-MA for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:53:18 +0000 Received: from [130.37.15.35] (helo=stereo.hq.phicoh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NytIJ-0004SA-79 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 20:53:16 +0000 Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #2) id m1NytI9-0001dpC; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 22:53 +0200 Message-Id: To: Ole Troan Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 From: Philip Homburg References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 5 Apr 2010 21:44:17 +0200 ." <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:53:03 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: In your letter dated Mon, 5 Apr 2010 21:44:17 +0200 you wrote: > >>> So, what is wrong with that scenario? > >> > >> Section 12.1 of RFC 3633 forbids it: > >> > >> "the requesting router MUST NOT assign any delegated prefixes or subnets > >> from the delegated prefix(es) to the link through which it received the > >> DHCP message from the delegating router." > > > > I know, but why? > > > > I always see a MUST NOT as something that would cause major harm or > > interoperability problems. But the DHCP PD RFC just says 'MUST NOT' without > > giving any reason what so ever. > > > > So maybe it is time to revisit that requirement instead of using that to > > force the weak host model onto CPEs. > > the reason for that "MUST NOT" is to prohibit path of the delegated > prefix from being used on the DR - RR link. if the DR chose to use > part of the delegated prefix, that would be hard for the RR to > detect and could potentially conflict with the RR's own use of the > delegated prefix. "delegation" implies that the DR transfers control > of the prefix to the RR. I don't understand what you are saying. The quoted text says "the requesting router MUST NOT assign [..]", so this a requirement on the requesting router. I don't think the DR can do anything with part of the delegated prefix anyhow. I'm not proposing that the DR assigns a subset out the delegated prefix to the link, that would not work. I'm proposing that the requesting router assigns just for itself an address from that prefix to it's WAN interface. > this doesn't necessarily prohibit the RR from doing what you suggest. > but, I haven't understood what problem you are trying to solve. > could you expand on that? The current text in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 mandates the weak host model: if the CPE gets a delegated prefix with an unnumbered WAN link then RFC-3633 prevents it from assigning an address out of that prefix to it's WAN interface. I prefer to avoid unnumbered links. I think it is much less confusing if source addresses of error ICMPs are always addresses from the interface that generated the error. So I'd like the CPE to be able to assign an address from it's prefix to it's WAN interface. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 14:02:21 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02F2B3A6A56 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 14:02:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v6GkajqbI+nO for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 14:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DC5928C108 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 14:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NytQ6-0005j5-PF for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:01:18 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NytQ3-0005ig-PA for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:01:15 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,367,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="98963244" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Apr 2010 21:01:05 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com [72.163.62.138]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o35L13CU005302; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 21:01:03 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) by xbh-rcd-101.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:01:03 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:01:02 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Thread-Index: AcrVAgIgrUzVzPIISAyNbCUBVwxALQAAF2tw References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" To: "Philip Homburg" , "Ole Troan" Cc: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 05 Apr 2010 21:01:04.0096 (UTC) FILETIME=[1A934E00:01CAD503] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > I prefer to avoid unnumbered links.=20 Unnumbered links are a deployment scenario that is highly desirable from some operators who wish to administratively separate the link between the SP and the CPE and the home... They are also, in some cases, more easily administrated from an addressing prespective than numbered links. Your proposal would deny the SP the ability to administer their network the way they want to. - Wes From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 14:18:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3418D3A6A01 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 14:18:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5NqNuvOFKeUZ for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 14:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3BC73A6A03 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 14:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NytfD-0007wZ-TY for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:16:55 +0000 Received: from [130.37.15.35] (helo=stereo.hq.phicoh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nytf6-0007vj-5R for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 21:16:49 +0000 Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #2) id m1Nytdd-0001dZC; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 23:15 +0200 Message-Id: To: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" Cc: "Ole Troan" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 From: Philip Homburg References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:01:02 -0500 ." Date: Mon, 05 Apr 2010 23:15:16 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: In your letter dated Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:01:02 -0500 you wrote: >> I prefer to avoid unnumbered links. > >Unnumbered links are a deployment scenario that is highly desirable from >some operators who wish to administratively separate the link between the SP and the CPE and the home... They are also, in some cases, more >easily administrated from an addressing prespective than numbered links. > >Your proposal would deny the SP the ability to administer their network >the way they want to. That is a separate issue. The first issue is that the DHCP PD RFC doesn't allow what I'm proposing, whether the ISP agrees or not. The second issue, ISPs who like unnumbered links. I respect that. However, as I said in a previous mail. The difference between assigning an address to a virtual interface or to the WAN interface itself is almost completely invisible to the ISP. So if ISPs essentially cannot tell the difference, how can it matter to them? From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 15:06:12 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBA483A67B1 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:06:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2lc1rrjdCwHZ for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:06:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FD803A6905 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:06:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NyuMa-000CrM-Jj for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:01:44 +0000 Received: from [171.71.176.117] (helo=sj-iport-6.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NyuMX-000Cr2-KQ for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 05 Apr 2010 22:01:41 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-6.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,367,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="509737423" Received: from sj-core-1.cisco.com ([171.71.177.237]) by sj-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP; 05 Apr 2010 22:01:41 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by sj-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o35M1eXJ008353; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 22:01:40 GMT Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:01:40 -0700 Cc: Ole Troan , IPv6 v6ops Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> To: Philip Homburg , "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Dumb question. In an IPv6 world, we don't actually have unnumbered = links; we have link-local-addressed links. The link do in fact have = addresses, but they are not externally addressable/ddos-able. If you = want to manage a router, you use its loop-back address, which is perhaps = a ULA and therefore unroutable from neighboring (customer, upstream, or = peer) networks.=20 Is there a problem with the link-local-address model if an ISP would = rather use it?=20 Or did I miss something? On Apr 5, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Philip Homburg wrote: > In your letter dated Mon, 5 Apr 2010 16:01:02 -0500 you wrote: >>> I prefer to avoid unnumbered links. >>=20 >> Unnumbered links are a deployment scenario that is highly desirable = from >> some operators who wish to administratively separate the link between > the SP and the CPE and the home... They are also, in some cases, more >> easily administrated from an addressing prespective than numbered = links. >>=20 >> Your proposal would deny the SP the ability to administer their = network >> the way they want to. >=20 > That is a separate issue. >=20 > The first issue is that the DHCP PD RFC doesn't allow what I'm = proposing, > whether the ISP agrees or not. >=20 > The second issue, ISPs who like unnumbered links. I respect that. = However, > as I said in a previous mail. The difference between assigning an = address > to a virtual interface or to the WAN interface itself is almost = completely > invisible to the ISP.=20 >=20 > So if ISPs essentially cannot tell the difference, how can it matter = to them? >=20 >=20 >=20 http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF From v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Mon Apr 5 15:07:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E37D3A67E1 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:07:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:07:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from access.co.jp (unknown [201.255.143.45]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2AB563A6A8B for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:07:23 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: News on myspace To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100405220724.2AB563A6A8B@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:07:23 -0700 (PDT)
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From urn-archive@ietf.org Mon Apr 5 21:20:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95E5D28C146 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 21:20:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 21:19:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aisinspect.com (unknown [201.116.140.246]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 578993A6AA0 for ; Mon, 5 Apr 2010 21:16:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Sales Event get 70% off To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100406041614.578993A6AA0@core3.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 5 Apr 2010 21:16:10 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 01:30:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5B213A6863 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 01:30:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0me1iOZUEN3y for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 01:30:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A08ED3A6840 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 01:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nz45T-000HXm-Hq for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 08:24:43 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.141] (helo=ams-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nz45Q-000HXR-Sc for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 08:24:41 +0000 Authentication-Results: ams-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,371,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="5218369" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Apr 2010 07:49:25 +0000 Received: from dhcp-osl-vl300-64-103-53-242.cisco.com (dhcp-osl-vl300-64-103-53-242.cisco.com [64.103.53.242]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o368Ocbl019568; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:24:38 GMT Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:24:44 +0200 Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> To: Philip Homburg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > The current text in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 mandates the > weak host model: if the CPE gets a delegated prefix with an unnumbered = WAN > link then RFC-3633 prevents it from assigning an address out of that = prefix to > it's WAN interface. >=20 > I prefer to avoid unnumbered links. I think it is much less confusing = if=20 > source addresses of error ICMPs are always addresses from the = interface that > generated the error. these two paragraphs are mutually exclusive. you cannot require that an = ICMP error is sourced from the interface that generated the error and at = the same time require that a router use the strong host model. /ot From gary.reid1@btinternet.com Tue Apr 6 05:23:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 265AF3A691D for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 05:23:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 4.42 X-Spam-Level: **** X-Spam-Status: No, score=4.42 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kaSW-0WRj4tS for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 05:23:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web86701.mail.ird.yahoo.com (web86701.mail.ird.yahoo.com [217.146.188.142]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 655263A6828 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 05:23:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 63355 invoked by uid 60001); 6 Apr 2010 12:23:01 -0000 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=btinternet.com; s=s1024; t=1270556581; bh=vc4icTyZtvY7WXH8UTyGLumEc+pPXtmAtcDZAD5J+lo=; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=4J5vsTyIOBJ/d5O++XaqOnDVlj7E1PUNbVfkPqb1mMYMmY3sH1xTKv7J3ALnhaZJHR3r5vmPpzkkOeT0QbvoquWitz6onldhCxH9A6yuVGF167qTpKYLR5oexCQLpanXgDC3dilTErCsTQbWkIe5p4wVLzx4SOoQ3u+c41NwUgg= DomainKey-Signature:a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=btinternet.com; h=Message-ID:X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=BK9Llfi3sU1LyVQhbaplrCDVcEuUS6nnXja2OaFG+0SyqmHPYE3PQ+rHoZYJfYBD8yNV4lStu8DT2Fv7iZOEc2w0wcWUjhBGj+RU8ZMVEYhJHs0JTYCdUI5SJeoAeMvbN7wO1vPo1yqTtcQnfJWhkTKZarqgXQIl87vPY1VF10E=; Message-ID: <436873.62869.qm@web86701.mail.ird.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: O3WdViMVM1kB5sAH6wW0WCtbYwQJgg81ewjl3KqM88wdrk7 PylQjhumt Received: from [41.216.44.236] by web86701.mail.ird.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 12:23:00 GMT X-Mailer: YahooMailClassic/10.0.8 YahooMailWebService/0.8.100.260964 Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:23:00 +0000 (GMT) From: "Mr. Frank Udo" Reply-To: drikeuche@hosanna.net Subject: =?iso-8859-1?Q?Atenci=F3n=2C=2E_=A1Por_favor!=2C?= To: undisclosed recipients: ; MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1483320739-1270556580=:62869" --0-1483320739-1270556580=:62869 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Atenci=F3n,. =A1Por favor!, =0A=A0 =0ADespu=E9s de muchas consideraciones sobre=0A este asunto, he decidido po= nerse en contacto con usted, creyendo que va=0A a proteger a esta transacci= =F3n y darle la atenci=F3n que merece. Me =0Acomplace estar en contacto con= usted.. Soy un personal de alta direcci=F3n=0A de un banco regional aqu=ED= en la Rep=FAblica de Benin. =0A=A0 =0AMe gustar=EDa saber si podemos trabajar =0Ajuntos en colaboraci=F3n. Me = gustar=EDa colaborar conmigo a trav=E9s del env=EDo=0A de correspondencia d= e apoyo a nuestra oficina como beneficiario a un =0Acliente fallecido en es= te banco que hizo una gran cantidad de dep=F3sito =0Afijo de Estados Unidos= (EE.UU.) de d=F3lares a nuestro banco, con una =0Aamplia y precisa directi= vas que se te da el interior de nuestra oficina =0Apara lograr con =E9xito = una reclamaci=F3n de este dep=F3sito, el difunto es de=0A su regi=F3n, muri= =F3 sin registrado familiares designar en su perfil de =0Acuenta en nuestra= oficina y, como tal, sus fondos tienen ahora una =0Amandato beneficiario a= bierto, para cualquiera que tenga informaci=F3n =0Aprecisa de la persona fa= llecida como est=E1 escrito en su cuenta de datos =0Acon nuestra oficina, q= ue voy a poner a su disposici=F3n bajo petici=F3n. =0A =0ASinceramente, capaz de buscar su =0Acolaboraci=F3n para poder reclamar e= l dinero correctamente. Los voy a =0Aguiar por profesionales, pero en secre= to sobre la informaci=F3n que se =0Arequiera de usted de nuestro banco de u= na manera m=E1s discreta, para =0Apoder reclamar este fondo para nuestro de= sembolso personal. Quiz=E1 le =0Ainterese saber que todos los aspectos de l= a seguridad en esta operaci=F3n =0Aha sido bien cuidado, por favor si usted= est=E1 interesado, me deja saber =0Alo que le puedo dar detalles sobre las= medidas a tomar, a maximizar esta=0A gran oportunidad para asegurar financ= ially.I nuestro futuro se espera =0Asu respuesta favorable. =0Ami privado =0Adirecci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico;;; (=A0 =0Adrikeuche@hosanna.net=A0 = ) =0AAtentamente, =0ADr.Ike=A0=A0 Uche --0-1483320739-1270556580=:62869 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Atenci=F3n= ,. =A1Por favor!,
=0A 
=0ADespu=E9s de muchas consideraciones sobre=0A e= ste asunto, he decidido ponerse en contacto con usted, creyendo que va=0A a= proteger a esta transacci=F3n y darle la atenci=F3n que merece. Me =0Acomp= lace estar en contacto con usted.. Soy un personal de alta direcci=F3n=0A d= e un banco regional aqu=ED en la Rep=FAblica de Benin.
=0A 
=0AMe gustar= =EDa saber si podemos trabajar =0Ajuntos en colaboraci=F3n. Me gustar=EDa c= olaborar conmigo a trav=E9s del env=EDo=0A de correspondencia de apoyo a nu= estra oficina como beneficiario a un =0Acliente fallecido en este banco que= hizo una gran cantidad de dep=F3sito =0Afijo de Estados Unidos (EE.UU.) de= d=F3lares a nuestro banco, con una =0Aamplia y precisa directivas que se t= e da el interior de nuestra oficina =0Apara lograr con =E9xito una reclamac= i=F3n de este dep=F3sito, el difunto es de=0A su regi=F3n, muri=F3 sin regi= strado familiares designar en su perfil de =0Acuenta en nuestra oficina y, = como tal, sus fondos tienen ahora una =0Amandato beneficiario abierto, para= cualquiera que tenga informaci=F3n =0Aprecisa de la persona fallecida como= est=E1 escrito en su cuenta de datos =0Acon nuestra oficina, que voy a pon= er a su disposici=F3n bajo petici=F3n.
=0A
=0A=0Ami privado
=0A= direcci=F3n de correo electr=F3nico;;; (  =0Adrikeuche@hosanna.net&nbs= p; )
=0AAtentamente,
=0ADr.Ike   Uche
--0-1483320739-1270556580=:62869-- From uk@megatron.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 05:30:05 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 388293A6837 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 05:30:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 05:29:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ab6x.net (unknown [222.124.39.201]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E60EA3A6823 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 05:29:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Important notice: Google Apps browser support To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100406122950.E60EA3A6823@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 05:29:49 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 06:39:06 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6976C3A6923 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:39:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FjGnr8a2vU2K for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FE1F3A6903 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nz8sD-0000r8-IH for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:31:21 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nz8sA-0000qK-0Z for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:31:19 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,372,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="99152805" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Apr 2010 13:31:16 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com [72.163.62.200]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o36DVGMg025511; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:31:16 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) by xbh-rcd-201.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:31:16 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: FW: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:31:15 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: FW: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Thread-Index: AcrU8ALzkAjdVPiUQYiReklEAMcoGQAnOmsg References: Your message of "Mon, 5 Apr 2010 08:51:40 -0500 ." From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" To: "Philip Homburg" Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Apr 2010 13:31:16.0595 (UTC) FILETIME=[6F2F3430:01CAD58D] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >>>So, what is wrong with that scenario? >> >>Section 12.1 of RFC 3633 forbids it: >> >>"the requesting router MUST NOT assign any delegated prefixes or=20 >>subnets from the delegated prefix(es) to the link through which it=20 >>received the DHCP message from the delegating router." > >I know, but why? > >I always see a MUST NOT as something that would cause major harm or interoperability problems.=20 >But the DHCP PD RFC just says 'MUST NOT' without giving any reason what so ever. > >So maybe it is time to revisit that requirement instead of using that to force the weak host=20 >model onto CPEs. The deployment that you suggest, using an address from the PD for the WAN interface, will cause on-link determination problems for the SP router, and will result in lack of network connectivity to the CPE router. Thus, yes, there will be interoperability problems. We need to discourage CPE routers from using the strong host model in order to ensure that we can provide network connectivity and to allow SP's to address the network the way that they want to. - Wes From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 06:44:35 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BA8F3A6903 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:44:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MuXaY7CbsmKC for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45D303A6897 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:44:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nz93a-0002oe-VC for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:43:06 +0000 Received: from [130.37.15.35] (helo=stereo.hq.phicoh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nz93W-0002nz-Sq for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:43:04 +0000 Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #2) id m1Nz93N-0001dYC; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:42 +0200 Message-Id: To: Fred Baker Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , Ole Troan , IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 From: Philip Homburg References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:01:40 -0700 ." Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 15:42:48 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: In your letter dated Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:01:40 -0700 you wrote: >Dumb question. In an IPv6 world, we don't actually have unnumbered >links; we have link-local-addressed links. The link do in fact have >addresses, but they are not externally addressable/ddos-able. If you >want to manage a router, you use its loop-back address, which is perhaps >a ULA and therefore unroutable from neighboring (customer, upstream, or >peer) networks. > >Is there a problem with the link-local-address model if an ISP would = >rather use it? > >Or did I miss something? I've never seen a real definition of what 'unnumbered' is supposed to mean in the context of IPv6, but I think it is assumed to mean a link that does not have a global prefix. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 06:52:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3D793A6974 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:52:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jzbcW5xReexp for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0FFF3A6969 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:52:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nz9AU-0003uA-17 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:50:14 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nz9AP-0003si-HX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:50:09 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,372,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="99158087" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Apr 2010 13:50:08 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com [72.163.63.8]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o36Do8CW020165; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:50:08 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) by xbh-rcd-301.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:50:08 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:50:07 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Thread-Index: AcrVjxRZ/3IinudeRW2xc/1Cy7BjyAAAFeew References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" To: "Philip Homburg" , "Fred Baker (fred)" Cc: "Ole Troan" , "IPv6 v6ops" X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Apr 2010 13:50:08.0057 (UTC) FILETIME=[11969A90:01CAD590] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >>Dumb question. In an IPv6 world, we don't actually have unnumbered=20 >>links; we have link-local-addressed links. The link do in fact have=20 >>addresses, but they are not externally addressable/ddos-able. If you=20 >>want to manage a router, you use its loop-back address, which is=20 >>perhaps a ULA and therefore unroutable from neighboring (customer,=20 >>upstream, or >>peer) networks. >> >>Is there a problem with the link-local-address model if an ISP would = =3D >>rather use it? >> >>Or did I miss something? > >I've never seen a real definition of what 'unnumbered' is supposed to mean in the context of IPv6, >but I think it is assumed to mean a link that does not have a global prefix. By unnumbered, we are referring to a link that only has a link-local address and does not have a ULA or a global prefix. All globally-routed traffic sourced by this interface uses a global prefix assigned to a different interface, and thus, the device uses the weak-host model, since the strong-host model would forbid traffic with a source address that doesn't match any address assigned to the source interface. - Wes From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 06:52:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3D9D3A68B7 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:52:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GQifdva0Zt7d for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:52:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9289E3A6976 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:52:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nz9BS-00046V-RS for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:51:14 +0000 Received: from [130.37.15.35] (helo=stereo.hq.phicoh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nz9BP-00045L-66 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:51:11 +0000 Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #2) id m1Nz98j-0001cEC; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:48 +0200 Message-Id: To: Ole Troan Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 From: Philip Homburg References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:24:44 +0200 ." Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 15:48:24 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: In your letter dated Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:24:44 +0200 you wrote: >> I prefer to avoid unnumbered links. I think it is much less confusing = >if=20 >> source addresses of error ICMPs are always addresses from the = >interface that >> generated the error. > >these two paragraphs are mutually exclusive. you cannot require that an >ICMP error is sourced from the interface that generated the error and at >the same time require that a router use the strong host model. Why? In the strong host model, every interface has a global address and some way of forwarding packets to a default router. So the interface that generates the ICMP uses it's own address as the source of the ICMP and forwards it to a default router, which is typically the system itself because we are talking about a router, but it could be an default router. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 06:53:47 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 168213A6960 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:53:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bZADvpGwr+HR for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B7FF3A68EF for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 06:53:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nz9Cj-0004Nj-Ff for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:52:33 +0000 Received: from [130.37.15.35] (helo=stereo.hq.phicoh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nz9Cf-0004Ms-MA for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 13:52:30 +0000 Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #2) id m1Nz9CZ-0001cHC; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:52 +0200 Message-Id: To: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ot@cisco.com Subject: Re: FW: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 From: Philip Homburg References: Your message of "Mon, 5 Apr 2010 08:51:40 -0500 ." In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:31:15 -0500 ." Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 15:52:23 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: In your letter dated Tue, 6 Apr 2010 08:31:15 -0500 you wrote: >The deployment that you suggest, using an address from the PD for the >WAN interface, will cause on-link determination problems for the SP >router, and will result in lack of network connectivity to the CPE >router. Thus, yes, there will be interoperability problems. The SP router has a route for the entire delegated prefix, with as nexthop the link local address of the CPE. So I don't see how this could possibly go wrong. Like I said, from the point of view of the SP router, assigning an address to a virtual interface or to the WAN interface is almost indistinguishable. From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Tue Apr 6 07:04:31 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7CF13A6808 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:04:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: \251 VIAGRA \256 Offic[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -85.39 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.39 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HELO_EQ_BR=0.955, HOST_EQ_BR=1.295, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_12=2.46, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_RECV_VIRTUACOMBR=1.193, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M1HQsfT143tw for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:04:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from c906532d.virtua.com.br (c906532d.virtua.com.br [201.6.83.45]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 293223A67B4 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:04:29 -0700 (PDT) From: © VIAGRA ® Official Site To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Dear v6ops-archive@ietf.org April 00% OFF. 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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 07:09:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B3AF3A68AC for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:09:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -110.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-110.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mw675RAe6P3d for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B0153A687F for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:09:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nz9QG-000700-SN for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:06:32 +0000 Received: from [171.68.10.86] (helo=sj-iport-4.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nz9QD-0006zO-80 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:06:29 +0000 Authentication-Results: sj-iport-4.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,372,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="110959532" Received: from sj-core-4.cisco.com ([171.68.223.138]) by sj-iport-4.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Apr 2010 14:06:28 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by sj-core-4.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o36E6S7A012443; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:06:28 GMT Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:06:28 -0700 Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , Ole Troan , IPv6 v6ops Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> To: Philip Homburg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: What makes me react here is that in IPv4 networks there are in fact = interfaces that have no IP addresses, and routing protocols like OSPFv2 = have to specially treat them. One of the things I like about IPv6 is = that it actually has an address on those links, even if it's useless for = anyone not on the link. Protocols and internal functions that deal with = them can be consistent. On Apr 6, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Philip Homburg wrote: > In your letter dated Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:01:40 -0700 you wrote: >> Dumb question. In an IPv6 world, we don't actually have unnumbered=20 >> links; we have link-local-addressed links. The link do in fact have=20= >> addresses, but they are not externally addressable/ddos-able. If you=20= >> want to manage a router, you use its loop-back address, which is = perhaps=20 >> a ULA and therefore unroutable from neighboring (customer, upstream, = or=20 >> peer) networks. >>=20 >> Is there a problem with the link-local-address model if an ISP would = =3D >> rather use it? >>=20 >> Or did I miss something? >=20 > I've never seen a real definition of what 'unnumbered' is supposed to = mean > in the context of IPv6, but I think it is assumed to mean a link that = does not > have a global prefix. >=20 >=20 http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 07:59:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23FC63A6838 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:59:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DMse8O3P1Lhw for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41F473A68DB for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzABg-000E67-Mc for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:55:32 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.141] (helo=ams-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzABd-000E5F-Sz for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 14:55:30 +0000 Authentication-Results: ams-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,372,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="5241233" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Apr 2010 14:20:12 +0000 Received: from dhcp-osl-vl300-64-103-53-242.cisco.com (dhcp-osl-vl300-64-103-53-242.cisco.com [64.103.53.242]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o36EtRqK017666; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:55:27 GMT Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 16:55:22 +0200 Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <5051C617-022D-4B8B-916E-319E404CCABF@cisco.com> References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> To: Philip Homburg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Philip, >>> I prefer to avoid unnumbered links. I think it is much less = confusing =3D >> if=3D20 >>> source addresses of error ICMPs are always addresses from the =3D >> interface that >>> generated the error. >>=20 >> these two paragraphs are mutually exclusive. you cannot require that = an=20 >> ICMP error is sourced from the interface that generated the error and = at=20 >> the same time require that a router use the strong host model. >=20 > Why?=20 isn't that obvious? if you generate an ICMP message from e.g Ethernet0 destined to a = destination on Serial0? since the error happened on Ethernet0, that's the address you want to = use as a source for the ICMP. you cannot do this with the strong host = model. /ot >=20 > In the strong host model, every interface has a global address and = some way=20 > of forwarding packets to a default router.=20 >=20 > So the interface that generates the ICMP uses it's own address as the = source > of the ICMP and forwards it to a default router, which is typically = the system > itself because we are talking about a router, but it could be an = default > router. >=20 >=20 From v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 10:17:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7AED33A6933 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:17:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -84.116 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-84.116 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_65=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0HqOoiA2XZHm for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from allegro.com.au (unknown [79.101.248.195]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 6859D3A6803 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:17:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: best job for best people! $3912/ month From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100406171724.6859D3A6803@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:17:23 -0700 (PDT) An import export company seeks remote employees.
Our company specializes in marketing and selling of the various products on the Internet and our goal is to connect sellers and buyers
for various products online thus assuring the best possible outcome for the both parties involved.
Being foreign company makes it harder to manage sales transactions with US customers,
thus we are looking for support of regional customer service representative.
The main duties include receiving and making payments on client's behalf, managing the preparation and distribution
for expected transactions and ensuring accuracy and promptness of payments and reports.
Number of expected transactions per week: from 2-3 (at the beginning of work) to 5-7 (after the first probation month).

Benefits:
1. Base salary(after a month evaluation period), commissions + monthly bonuses
2. All banking and cellphone expenses covered
3. Earnings in addition to your current job
4. No need to sell anything or look for customers

Requirements:
1. Mobile and stationary phone
2. Access to e-mail via Internet or mobile phone
3. Minimum age: 25
4. Bank account


If you are interested in this job offer, please send the your free form application to:
Rochelle@union-eur.net

I'll answer you as soon as possible. From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 10:27:28 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0471A3A67B3 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:27:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -75.452 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-75.452 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_65=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LREZuyUZKtTW for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 153-69-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net (153-69-113-92.pool.ukrtel.net [92.113.69.153]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3B0F63A67B2 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:27:23 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: best job for best people! $3845/ month From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100406172724.3B0F63A67B2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:27:23 -0700 (PDT) An import export company seeks remote employees.
Our company specializes in marketing and selling of the various products on the Internet and our goal is to connect sellers and buyers
for various products online thus assuring the best possible outcome for the both parties involved.
Being foreign company makes it harder to manage sales transactions with US customers,
thus we are looking for support of regional customer service representative.
The main duties include receiving and making payments on client's behalf, managing the preparation and distribution
for expected transactions and ensuring accuracy and promptness of payments and reports.
Number of expected transactions per week: from 2-3 (at the beginning of work) to 5-7 (after the first probation month).

Benefits:
1. Base salary(after a month evaluation period), commissions + monthly bonuses
2. All banking and cellphone expenses covered
3. Earnings in addition to your current job
4. No need to sell anything or look for customers

Requirements:
1. Mobile and stationary phone
2. Access to e-mail via Internet or mobile phone
3. Minimum age: 25
4. Bank account


If you are interested in this job offer, please send the your free form application to:
Valerie@union-eur.net

I'll answer you as soon as possible. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 10:30:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 396353A6958 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:30:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rZDtWy6op0gZ for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:30:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE66D28C0D8 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzCWF-0006Hn-TQ for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 17:24:55 +0000 Received: from [130.37.15.35] (helo=stereo.hq.phicoh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzCWC-0006HC-3B for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 17:24:52 +0000 Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #2) id m1NzCW3-0001c1C; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 19:24 +0200 Message-Id: To: Ole Troan Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 From: Philip Homburg References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> <5051C617-022D-4B8B-916E-319E404CCABF@cisco.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 6 Apr 2010 16:55:22 +0200 ." <5051C617-022D-4B8B-916E-319E404CCABF@cisco.com> Date: Tue, 06 Apr 2010 19:24:43 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: In your letter dated Tue, 6 Apr 2010 16:55:22 +0200 you wrote: >isn't that obvious? No it isn't. >if you generate an ICMP message from e.g Ethernet0 destined to a >destination on Serial0? >since the error happened on Ethernet0, that's the address you want to >use as a source for the ICMP. you cannot do this with the strong host >model. Suppose we have a packet with source S, and destination D. At Ethernet0 with address I we discover that we cannot forward the packet anymore. So we generate an ICMP with source I and destination S and use Ethernet0's default router (probably internal to the node because we a talking about a router) to send the packet on its way to S. Whether destination D is at Serial0 or not is irrelant. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 10:59:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADABF3A69A0 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:59:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o6FQsYzMK1KO for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF7E23A699A for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 10:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzD26-0009aq-UG for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 17:57:50 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.141] (helo=ams-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzD23-0009a4-3z for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Tue, 06 Apr 2010 17:57:47 +0000 Authentication-Results: ams-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,373,1267401600"; d="scan'208";a="5248310" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 06 Apr 2010 17:22:30 +0000 Received: from dhcp-10-61-102-243.cisco.com (dhcp-10-61-102-243.cisco.com [10.61.102.243]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o36HvjYI026118; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 17:57:45 GMT Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 19:57:44 +0200 Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <67F41198-B54F-41A5-9A6C-F9B2DD158915@cisco.com> References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> <5051C617-022D-4B8B-916E-319E404CCABF@cisco.com> To: Philip Homburg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >> isn't that obvious? >=20 > No it isn't. >=20 >> if you generate an ICMP message from e.g Ethernet0 destined to a=20 >> destination on Serial0? >> since the error happened on Ethernet0, that's the address you want to=20= >> use as a source for the ICMP. you cannot do this with the strong host=20= >> model. >=20 > Suppose we have a packet with source S, and destination D. At = Ethernet0 with > address I we discover that we cannot forward the packet anymore. So we > generate an ICMP with source I and destination S and use Ethernet0's = default > router (probably internal to the node because we a talking about a = router) to > send the packet on its way to S. >=20 > Whether destination D is at Serial0 or not is irrelant. me thinks you are confused... /ot From v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 11:35:49 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 809E33A6AFF for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 11:35:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -82.753 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.753 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_65=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id npG++O7oHIkW for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 11:35:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Wimax-c3-ppy-pt-190-70-190-24.orbitel.net.co (Wimax-c3-ppy-pt-190-70-190-24.orbitel.net.co [190.70.190.24]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CA48328C192 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 11:31:53 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Help Wanted From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100406183153.CA48328C192@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 11:31:53 -0700 (PDT) An import export company seeks remote employees.
Our company specializes in marketing and selling of the various products on the Internet and our goal is to connect sellers and buyers
for various products online thus assuring the best possible outcome for the both parties involved.

Being foreign company makes it harder to manage sales transactions with US customers,
thus we are looking for support of regional customer service representative.
The main duties include receiving and making payments on client's behalf, managing the preparation and distribution
for expected transactions and ensuring accuracy and promptness of payments and reports.
Number of expected transactions per week: from 2-3 (at the beginning of work) to 5-7 (after the first probation month).

Benefits:
1. Base salary(after a month evaluation period), commissions + monthly bonuses
2. All banking, Western Union and cellphone expenses covered
3. Earnings in addition to your current job
4. No need to sell anything or look for customers

Requirements:
1. Mobile and stationary phone
2. Access to e-mail via Internet or mobile phone
3. Minimum age: 25
4. Bank account


If you are interested in this job offer, please send the your free form application to:
Keisha@union-eur.net

I'll answer you as soon as possible. From uk@megatron.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 11:55:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 746683A69E8 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 11:55:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: <4WilKaDNjd3k> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 11:55:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aichi.ricoh.co.jp (unknown [217.8.236.162]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EB9A63A6A0A for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 11:54:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Electronic Discount Code 72% for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100406185446.EB9A63A6A0A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 11:54:44 -0700 (PDT)
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From smf-discussion@lists.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 12:07:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81F593A6803 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:07:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -74.833 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-74.833 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_65=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uf6ryN29IdOl for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:07:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 244-103-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net (244-103-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net [94.179.103.244]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4E3983A6B11 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:05:17 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Make $3289 per month no experience needed!! From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100406190520.4E3983A6B11@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 12:05:17 -0700 (PDT) An import export company seeks remote employees.
Our company specializes in marketing and selling of the various products on the Internet and our goal is to connect sellers and buyers
for various products online thus assuring the best possible outcome for the both parties involved.

Being foreign company makes it harder to manage sales transactions with US customers,
thus we are looking for support of regional customer service representative.
The main duties include receiving and making payments on client's behalf, managing the preparation and distribution
for expected transactions and ensuring accuracy and promptness of payments and reports.
Number of expected transactions per week: from 2-3 (at the beginning of work) to 5-7 (after the first probation month).

Benefits:
1. Base salary(after a month evaluation period), commissions + monthly bonuses
2. All banking, Western Union and cellphone expenses covered
3. Earnings in addition to your current job
4. No need to sell anything or look for customers

Requirements:
1. Mobile and stationary phone
2. Access to e-mail via Internet or mobile phone
3. Minimum age: 25
4. Bank account


If you are interested in this job offer, please send the your free form application to:
Kyle@union-eur.net

I'll answer you as soon as possible. From v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 13:35:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C941F3A6A3B for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:35:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:35:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 112-185-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net (112-185-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net [94.179.185.112]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A400B3A6A3C for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:32:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Electronic Discount Code 76% for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100406203219.A400B3A6A3C@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 13:32:18 -0700 (PDT)
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From secmech-request@lists.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 14:13:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2F573A6A4D for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:13:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:12:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cpe-74-77-193-39.buffalo.res.rr.com (cpe-74-77-193-39.buffalo.res.rr.com [74.77.193.39]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 953623A6A38 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:12:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Your Future Order with 77% off retail To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100406211244.953623A6A38@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 14:12:41 -0700 (PDT)
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From smf-discussion@lists.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 15:05:53 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 268913A68A5 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:05:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -76.683 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-76.683 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HOST_EQ_STATIC=1.172, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Px0qb0QU88yu for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:05:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 190-82-64-43.static.tie.cl (190-82-64-43.static.tie.cl [190.82.64.43]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7F4A43A68A4 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:05:45 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Una oferta interesante para ti. From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100406220547.7F4A43A68A4@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 15:05:45 -0700 (PDT) Estoy tratando de encontrar a los residentes de Espana que quisieran ocupar el cargo de mi ayudante.
Ganancias seran de 2,000 euros por mes!

Si tenga interes en este trabajo, se nos envie via correo electronico
Ward@europen-un.com los siguientes datos:
nombre, edad, domicilio y telefono de contacto.
Al recibir este mensaje por un error, disculpenos. From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Tue Apr 6 16:04:03 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94B4A3A6A44 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 16:04:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -91.986 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-91.986 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_65=0.6, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TpzhivBnwXSh for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 16:04:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alsde.edu (unknown [190.84.5.224]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 0BF6B3A6A38 for ; Tue, 6 Apr 2010 16:03:48 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Position available for American people From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100406230350.0BF6B3A6A38@core3.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 6 Apr 2010 16:03:48 -0700 (PDT) An import export company seeks remote employees.
Our company specializes in marketing and selling of the various products on the Internet and our goal is to connect sellers and buyers
for various products online thus assuring the best possible outcome for the both parties involved.

Being foreign company makes it harder to manage sales transactions with US customers,
thus we are looking for support of regional customer service representative.
The main duties include receiving and making payments on client's behalf, managing the preparation and distribution
for expected transactions and ensuring accuracy and promptness of payments and reports.
Number of expected transactions per week: from 2-3 (at the beginning of work) to 5-7 (after the first probation month).

Benefits:
1. Base salary(after a month evaluation period), commissions + monthly bonuses
2. All banking, Western Union and cellphone expenses covered
3. Earnings in addition to your current job
4. No need to sell anything or look for customers

Requirements:
1. Mobile and stationary phone
2. Access to e-mail via Internet or mobile phone
3. Minimum age: 25
4. Bank account


If you are interested in this job offer, please send the your free form application to:
Billy@union-eur.net

I'll answer you as soon as possible. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 00:26:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A10B03A681D for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 00:26:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZSevZ9DGRA1t for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 00:26:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3E993A6891 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 00:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzPZ9-0006eU-F5 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 07:20:47 +0000 Received: from [130.37.15.35] (helo=stereo.hq.phicoh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzPZ6-0006da-Ib for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 07:20:45 +0000 Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #2) id m1NzPXc-0001c7C; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:19 +0200 Message-Id: To: Ole Troan Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 From: Philip Homburg References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> <5051C617-022D-4B8B-916E-319E404CCABF@cisco.com> <67F41198-B54F-41A5-9A6C-F9B2DD158915@cisco.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 6 Apr 2010 19:57:44 +0200 ." <67F41198-B54F-41A5-9A6C-F9B2DD158915@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 09:19:10 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: In your letter dated Tue, 6 Apr 2010 19:57:44 +0200 you wrote: >> Suppose we have a packet with source S, and destination D. At = >Ethernet0 with >> address I we discover that we cannot forward the packet anymore. So we >> generate an ICMP with source I and destination S and use Ethernet0's = >default >> router (probably internal to the node because we a talking about a = >router) to >> send the packet on its way to S. >>=20 >> Whether destination D is at Serial0 or not is irrelant. > >me thinks you are confused... Yes, I am completely confused about the point you are trying to make. But I have more enough experience with IPv4 and IPv6 strict multi-homing implementations to know how they behave in practice. So maybe you can give enough details about your scenario to make it possible for someone else to verify whether strict multi-homing will fail in the way you say it will or not. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 01:51:54 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEDFF3A689B for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 01:51:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.053 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.053 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.558, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kbszEYAPP5Gy for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 01:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26F003A682D for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 01:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzQvf-000F3e-GH for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 08:48:07 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.141] (helo=ams-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzQva-000F2u-Qz for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 08:48:05 +0000 Authentication-Results: ams-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.51,377,1267401600"; d="scan'208,217";a="5273289" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 07 Apr 2010 08:12:43 +0000 Received: from dhcp-osl-vl300-64-103-53-242.cisco.com (dhcp-osl-vl300-64-103-53-242.cisco.com [64.103.53.242]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o378m0Gt029980; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:48:00 GMT Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-265102433 From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:47:58 +0200 Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Message-Id: <94996DC0-929D-4B15-94D0-9F6C750A5601@cisco.com> References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> <5051C617-022D-4B8B-916E-319E404CCABF@cisco.com> <67F41198-B54F-41A5-9A6C-F9B2DD158915@cisco.com> To: Philip Homburg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --Apple-Mail-1-265102433 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Apr 7, 2010, at 9:19 , Philip Homburg wrote: > In your letter dated Tue, 6 Apr 2010 19:57:44 +0200 you wrote: >>> Suppose we have a packet with source S, and destination D. At =3D >> Ethernet0 with >>> address I we discover that we cannot forward the packet anymore. So = we >>> generate an ICMP with source I and destination S and use Ethernet0's = =3D >> default >>> router (probably internal to the node because we a talking about a =3D= >> router) to >>> send the packet on its way to S. >>> =3D20 >>> Whether destination D is at Serial0 or not is irrelant. >>=20 >> me thinks you are confused... >=20 > Yes, I am completely confused about the point you are trying to make. >=20 > But I have more enough experience with IPv4 and IPv6 strict = multi-homing > implementations to know how they behave in practice. >=20 > So maybe you can give enough details about your scenario to make it = possible > for someone else to verify whether strict multi-homing will fail in = the > way you say it will or not. what is "strict multi-homing"? in the following figure from the draft: | / | Customer / | Internet connection / Wi | +------+--------+ \ | IPv6 | \ | Customer Edge | \ | Router | / +---+-------+-+-+ / Network A | | Network B | End-User ---+-------------+----+- --+--+-------------+--- |network(s) | | | | \ +----+-----+ +-----+----+ +----+-----+ +-----+----+ \ |IPv6 Host | |IPv6 Host | | IPv6 Host| |IPv6 Host | / | | | | | | | | / +----------+ +-----+----+ +----------+ +----------+/ you have a source S on the Internet sending to a destination D on = Network A. D does not exist on network A. you previously said you wanted = an ICMP error to use a source address giving most information about = where the problem occurred, i.e the IPv6 CE router's address on the = interface to network A. the ICMP error message will be sent back to S through interface Wi. the strong host model will require that the ICMP message is sent with an = address from Wi. the weak host model allows the use of a source address from the = interface connected to network A. /ot --Apple-Mail-1-265102433 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
In = your letter dated Tue, 6 Apr 2010 19:57:44 +0200 you = wrote:
Suppose we = have a packet with source S, and destination D. At = =3D
Ethernet0 = with
address I we discover that we cannot forward the packet = anymore. So we
generate an ICMP with source I = and destination S and use Ethernet0's = =3D
default
router (probably internal to the = node because we a talking about a = =3D
router) = to
send the packet on its way to = S.
=3D20
Whether destination D is at = Serial0 or not is irrelant.

me thinks you = are confused...

Yes, I am completely confused about = the point you are trying to make.

But I have more enough = experience with IPv4 and IPv6 strict multi-homing
implementations to = know how they behave in practice.

So maybe you can give enough = details about your scenario to make it possible
for someone else to = verify whether strict multi-homing will fail in the
way you say it = will or not.

what is "strict = multi-homing"?

in the following figure from the = draft:

           =                   |   =                     =       /
   =                     =       | Customer           =         /
   =                     =       | Internet connection       = /
           =                Wi = |
           =            +------+--------+     =             =  \
           =            |     IPv6   =    |                 =   \
           =            | Customer Edge |     =               =  \
           =            |    Router   =   |                   =  /
           =            +---+-------+-+-+     =               = /
         =  Network A       |       |   = Network B          | = End-User
    ---+-------------+----+- =    --+--+-------------+--- =  |network(s)
       |     =         |             =   |             |     =  \
   +----+-----+ +-----+----+   =   +----+-----+ +-----+----+  \
   |IPv6 = Host | |IPv6 Host |     | IPv6 Host| |IPv6 Host | =  /
   |         =  | |          |     |   =        | |          | = /
   +----------+ +-----+----+   =   +----------+ = +----------+/

you have a source S = on the Internet sending to a destination D on Network A. D does not = exist on network A. you previously said you wanted an ICMP error to use = a source address giving most information about where the problem = occurred, i.e the IPv6 CE router's address on the interface to network = A.

the ICMP error message will be sent back to = S through interface Wi.

the strong host model = will require that the ICMP message is sent with an address from = Wi.
the weak host model allows the use of a source address = from the interface connected to network = A.

/ot


<= /div>= --Apple-Mail-1-265102433-- From urn-ietf@ietf.org Wed Apr 7 03:36:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83C3E3A6A88 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 03:36:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 03:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aguascordillera.cl (viewbill.ntc.net.np [202.70.64.130]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B932D3A6A55 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 03:36:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Your Future Order with 78% off retail To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100407103622.B932D3A6A55@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 03:36:18 -0700 (PDT)
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From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Wed Apr 7 04:43:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5BFC3A691C for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 04:43:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -25.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-25.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_28=1.561, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN0b=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_PH_SURBL=1.787, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kp4x8XyyLTgI for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 04:43:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 125-230-161-40.dynamic.hinet.net (125-230-161-40.dynamic.hinet.net [125.230.161.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D39F33A68FC for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 04:43:25 -0700 (PDT) From: "Approved VIAGRA e-store" To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: Wassup v6ops-archive, your personal 80% discount code is A1248C3 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100407114325.D39F33A68FC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 04:43:25 -0700 (PDT) News
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From v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 04:43:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7CB83A684A for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 04:43:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -25.517 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-25.517 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_28=1.561, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN0b=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_PH_SURBL=1.787, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UL3JtCfqWn6D for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 04:43:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 125-230-161-40.dynamic.hinet.net (125-230-161-40.dynamic.hinet.net [125.230.161.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 077E53A68FC for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 04:43:35 -0700 (PDT) From: "Approved VIAGRA e-store" To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: Wassup v6ops-archive, your personal 80% discount code is 1526763 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100407114336.077E53A68FC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 04:43:35 -0700 (PDT) News
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From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 04:43:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB8B43A691C for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 04:43:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -22.623 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-22.623 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=4.681, BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DYNAMIC=1.144, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_28=1.561, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, SARE_RECV_SPAM_DOMN0b=1.666, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GPCrSp4ydqhW for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 04:43:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 125-230-161-40.dynamic.hinet.net (125-230-161-40.dynamic.hinet.net [125.230.161.40]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F1D13A68FC for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 04:43:38 -0700 (PDT) From: "Approved VIAGRA e-store" To: v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Subject: Wassup v6ops-archive, your personal 80% discount code is DC4B3CB MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100407114338.7F1D13A68FC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 04:43:38 -0700 (PDT) News
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 08:08:06 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AADAE3A6A8F for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:08:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.671 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.671 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IMuBvYPZOAb2 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:08:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0D073A68E1 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:08:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzWkR-0002Bj-F9 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:00:55 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.247] (helo=smtp4.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzWkL-0002BM-Ow for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:00:50 +0000 Received: from 219-90-224-227.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.224.227] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp4.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1NzWkF-0004ix-Bq; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 00:30:43 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1443549253; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 00:30:43 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 00:30:42 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: Fred Baker Cc: Philip Homburg , "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , Ole Troan , IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Message-ID: <20100408003042.12fd829f@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.5 (GTK+ 2.20.0; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Tue, 6 Apr 2010 07:06:28 -0700 Fred Baker wrote: > What makes me react here is that in IPv4 networks there are in fact interfaces that have no IP addresses, and routing protocols like OSPFv2 have to specially treat them. One of the things I like about IPv6 is that it actually has an address on those links, even if it's useless for anyone not on the link. Protocols and internal functions that deal with them can be consistent. > I agree. I really liked Novell IPX's "link local" network address because it was really easy to remember - 0x00000000. > On Apr 6, 2010, at 6:42 AM, Philip Homburg wrote: > > > In your letter dated Mon, 5 Apr 2010 15:01:40 -0700 you wrote: > >> Dumb question. In an IPv6 world, we don't actually have unnumbered > >> links; we have link-local-addressed links. The link do in fact have > >> addresses, but they are not externally addressable/ddos-able. If you > >> want to manage a router, you use its loop-back address, which is perhaps > >> a ULA and therefore unroutable from neighboring (customer, upstream, or > >> peer) networks. > >> > >> Is there a problem with the link-local-address model if an ISP would = > >> rather use it? > >> > >> Or did I miss something? > > > > I've never seen a real definition of what 'unnumbered' is supposed to mean > > in the context of IPv6, but I think it is assumed to mean a link that does not > > have a global prefix. > > > > > > http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF > > From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 08:38:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A61273A685D for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:38:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.95 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.95 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.650, BAYES_00=-2.599, NO_RELAYS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DwhJK2z7GiRo for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:38:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88BAF3A6918 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 08:38:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzXJ5-0006vl-U1 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:36:43 +0000 Received: from [2001:608:2:2::250] (helo=moebius3.space.net) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzXJ3-0006uB-Ne for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 15:36:42 +0000 Received: (qmail 149 invoked by uid 1007); 7 Apr 2010 17:36:37 +0200 Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 17:36:37 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Philip Homburg Cc: "Wes Beebee \(wbeebee\)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ot@cisco.com Subject: Re: FW: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Message-ID: <20100407153637.GI69383@Space.Net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.20 (2009-06-14) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: Hi, On Tue, Apr 06, 2010 at 03:52:23PM +0200, Philip Homburg wrote: > Like I said, from the point of view of the SP router, assigning an address > to a virtual interface or to the WAN interface is almost indistinguishable. Think "ND/NA/DAD" and "connected routes". There is a lot of difference. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- Total number of prefixes smaller than registry allocations: 150584 SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From urn-nid-web-archivedd@ietf.org Wed Apr 7 09:04:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B98FE3A6979 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:04:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: <69cyFPWzLKNf> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:04:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from abrimobile.com (unknown [190.40.217.164]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 107AF28C112 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:04:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: You have a new personal message To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100407160425.107AF28C112@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 09:04:07 -0700 (PDT)
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From uo@megatron.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 12:00:41 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A40613A69AC for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 12:00:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 12:00:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tm.78.153.37.210.dc.cable.static.telemach.net (tm.78.153.37.210.dc.cable.static.telemach.net [78.153.37.210]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2114A3A69A8 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 12:00:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Confirmation ref # [342810] To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100407190025.2114A3A69A8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 12:00:24 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 14:22:25 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA7F728C15A for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:22:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BZA9GzE3VvFl for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A8D128C14D for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:22:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzcbZ-000NYG-DY for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:16:09 +0000 Received: from [130.37.15.35] (helo=stereo.hq.phicoh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzcbV-000NXg-2z for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:16:05 +0000 Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #2) id m1NzcbM-0001e6C; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 23:15 +0200 Message-Id: To: Gert Doering Cc: "Wes Beebee \(wbeebee\)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org, ot@cisco.com Subject: Re: FW: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 From: Philip Homburg References: <20100407153637.GI69383@Space.Net> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 7 Apr 2010 17:36:37 +0200 ." <20100407153637.GI69383@Space.Net> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 23:15:54 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: In your letter dated Wed, 7 Apr 2010 17:36:37 +0200 you wrote: >On Tue, Apr 06, 2010 at 03:52:23PM +0200, Philip Homburg wrote: >> Like I said, from the point of view of the SP router, assigning an address >> to a virtual interface or to the WAN interface is almost indistinguishable. > >Think "ND/NA/DAD" and "connected routes". There is a lot of difference. DAD: - The SP router sees a couple of multicasts for a random IPv6 address which it will ignore. NS/NA: - I said that before, in rare circumstances, the SP router may see a NS with that address as source address. Is that a really big deal? Please explain how you would get a connected route? Even though the SP router may create a NC entry for the address, I don't why it would also consider the address to be onlink. Unless you consider every address with a NC entry to be onlink. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 14:22:27 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B770028C14D for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:22:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kdcGjQ0a-9HF for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:22:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D51B728C14A for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:22:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nzcft-000NuZ-WC for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:20:38 +0000 Received: from [130.37.15.35] (helo=stereo.hq.phicoh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nzcfp-000Nti-Qe for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:20:34 +0000 Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #2) id m1Nzcfn-0001cSC; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 23:20 +0200 Message-Id: To: Ole Troan Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 From: Philip Homburg References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> <5051C617-022D-4B8B-916E-319E404CCABF@cisco.com> <67F41198-B54F-41A5-9A6C-F9B2DD158915@cisco.com> <94996DC0-929D-4B15-94D0-9F6C750A5601@cisco.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:47:58 +0200 ." <94996DC0-929D-4B15-94D0-9F6C750A5601@cisco.com> Date: Wed, 07 Apr 2010 23:20:30 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: In your letter dated Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:47:58 +0200 you wrote: >in the following figure from the draft: > > | / > | Customer / > | Internet connection / > Wi | > +------+--------+ \ > | IPv6 | \ > | Customer Edge | \ > | Router | / > +---+-------+-+-+ / > Network A | | Network B | End-User > ---+-------------+----+- --+--+-------------+--- |network(s) > | | | | \ > +----+-----+ +-----+----+ +----+-----+ +-----+----+ \ > |IPv6 Host | |IPv6 Host | | IPv6 Host| |IPv6 Host | / > | | | | | | | | / > +----------+ +-----+----+ +----------+ +----------+/ > >you have a source S on the Internet sending to a destination D on = >Network A. D does not exist on network A. you previously said you wanted = >an ICMP error to use a source address giving most information about = >where the problem occurred, i.e the IPv6 CE router's address on the = >interface to network A. > >the ICMP error message will be sent back to S through interface Wi. > >the strong host model will require that the ICMP message is sent with an = >address from Wi. >the weak host model allows the use of a source address from the = >interface connected to network A. No. The interface attached to network A will generate the ICMP when neighbor discovery fails and will use its own IP address. It will then pass the ICMP to the default router associated with interface A. Because the node itself is a router, it can forward the packet internally and the packet will probably leave over Wi. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 14:40:50 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BEE03A6985 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:40:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.105 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.105 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_INVITATION=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CVV6-tUwol1x for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:40:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D831E3A69A9 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:40:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nzcx9-000PWl-0E for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:38:27 +0000 Received: from [140.239.131.52] (helo=SRVDE-CHT02.GTRInt.COM) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-MD5:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nzcx4-000PWI-Ls for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:38:22 +0000 Received: from SRVDE-EXCL01.GTRInt.COM ([10.38.140.86]) by SRVDE-CHT02.GTRInt.COM ([10.38.40.161]) with mapi; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 15:39:05 -0600 From: Scott Hogg To: "v6ops@ops.ietf.org" Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 15:39:03 -0600 Subject: 2010 Rocky Mountain IPv6 Summit Thread-Topic: 2010 Rocky Mountain IPv6 Summit Thread-Index: AcrWmr5J7u7TWCH4RjeRGdMeo+oiKQ== Message-ID: <12A7F196D8424548854F3AA86F13AAFE242986C7AE@SRVDE-EXCL01.GTRInt.COM> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: We would like to invite you to attend the 3rd annual 2010 Rocky Mountain IP= v6 Summit in Denver, Colorado, May 26-27, 2010. http://www.rmv6tf.org/IPv6Summit.htm The Rocky Mountain IPv6 Summit is the largest annual IPv6 event in North Am= erica. This event is designed to educate and update attendees on the curren= t state of IPv6 adoption. Attendees will learn about what other organizations are doing to prepare fo= r the migration to IPv6 and learn from those who are already utilizing the = benefits of IPv6. You will collaborate with colleagues who are actively wor= king on IPv6 research and implementation and learn about IPv6 technology fr= om industry experts. Where: Hyatt Regency Denver 650 15th Street, Denver, CO 80202 When: May 26, 2010, 9:00 AM - 5:00 PM May 27, 2010, 9:00 AM - 5:00 PM Click below to register. Register Now! Only 4 weeks left at the early bi= rd rate of $199. http://events.constantcontact.com/register/event?oeidk=3Da07e2oikk1r5a880ec= 9&oseq=3Da006g4c32a8j Event registration & information questions can be directed to Karen Wucher = (karen@redmangomarketing.com), or 214-789-4967. Event exhibit and sponsorship questions can be directed to Scott Hogg (scot= t@hoggnet.com), or 303-949-4865. You can take a look at the 2008 and 2009 Rocky Mountain IPv6 Summit agenda = and sponsors. http://www.rmv6tf.org Please feel free to forward this invitation to anyone you know who may be i= nterested in IPv6. Thank you for your interest in the Rocky Mountain IPv6 Summit. We look forw= ard to seeing you at the event. Sincerely, Scott Hogg Chair - Rocky Mountain IPv6 Task Force From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 14:47:00 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5548F3A69A8 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:47:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.671 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.671 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_AU=0.377, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CjeTuuAPSv+L for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC2F93A69C1 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 14:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nzd3b-0000DA-A7 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:45:07 +0000 Received: from [202.136.110.247] (helo=smtp4.adam.net.au) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1Nzd3W-0000CO-Di for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Wed, 07 Apr 2010 21:45:02 +0000 Received: from 219-90-224-227.ip.adam.com.au ([219.90.224.227] helo=opy.nosense.org) by smtp4.adam.net.au with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1Nzd3P-0005Wu-MQ; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 07:14:55 +0930 Received: from opy.nosense.org (localhost.localdomain [IPv6:::1]) by opy.nosense.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id E328C4922C; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 07:14:54 +0930 (CST) Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 07:14:54 +0930 From: Mark Smith To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" Cc: "IPv6 Operations" Subject: Re: draft-jiang-v6ops-nc-protection-01.txt Message-ID: <20100408071454.40517170@opy.nosense.org> In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.7.5 (GTK+ 2.20.0; x86_64-unknown-linux-gnu) X-Location: Lower Mitcham, South Australia, 5062 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:24:38 -0500 "Hemant Singh (shemant)" wrote: > The problem this document is trying to solve and any other ND related > security problem can be solved by use of SEND. It seems to me that SEND is protecting against illegitimate ND traffic. The specific problem as I see it is that SEND won't protect against illegitimate _non-ND_ traffic i.e. offlink traffic to non-existent onlink destinations (i.e. enters router on interface A (Internet), exits on interface B (LAN /64), triggers ND on subnet attached to interface B), that then triggers legitimate ND traffic. So SEND will ensure the router's NS is a legitimate one, but SEND doesn't verify that the destination address in the NS exists, without creating state in the router to allow the SEND ND transaction to complete. The attack is about remotely being able to utilise outstanding NS state in the router to trigger the DoS. > If SEND is not used, as > I said on the mike, read section 5.3 of the RFC 4861 which will purge > bogus entries due to NUD timeout. This document is of no use at all. > I've had a look at that section of 4861, and I don't think what is stated there will prevent this issue. Firstly it says that there is no need for active garbage collection under normal circumstances, as NUD will purge entries that become stale. However, the specific issue occurs before NUD kicks in - NUD fundamentally detects a neighbor disappearing, after it has existed. This attack is taking advantage of a neighbor never existing in the first place. The vulnerability is in the state that is kept while the initial ND NS is outstanding, for an address that doesn't exist. Secondly, it says that if there is a need to limit the size of the Neighbor Cache, then a least recently used policy should be used to purge entries, with a period of use up to 10 minutes. So it seems to me that there are potentially three types of entries in the Neighbor Cache: (1) Valid entries i.e. NS/NA has completed, and NUD will detect if and when the neighbor disappears. (2) Incomplete entries for valid addresses. NS has been issued, waiting for a corresponding NA to arrive. (3) Incomplete entries for non-existent addresses. NS has been issued, waiting for an NA that will never arrive. This is the attacker's traffic, generated by incrementing through the /64 (LAN or P2P link) If the attacker fills up the neighbor cache with (3) entries, then presumably the LRU garbage collection routine will kick in straight away. If it's as simple as that described in RFC4861, then I think it's probable that it'll start purging (1) and (2) entries, because the attacker is both creating and therefore keeping the (3) entries most recently used. By removing (1) and (2) entries, it creates a DoS for existing nodes for which the router has already completed the NS/NA transaction, and for existing nodes for with the router has an outstanding NS. The neighbor cache can end up with no completed entries, only (2)s and (3)s, resulting in a complete DoS for legitimate offlink sources trying to access the link. If the garbage routine is more selective that what is specified in RFC4861, and restricts it's LRU purging to Incomplete NS/NA transactions, then it still causes a DoS for existing nodes that haven't completed their NS/NA transaction. This is certainly significantly better than the simple garbage collection routine, however it still facilitates a remotely triggered DoS for nodes that may have recently become available. If the draft you are commenting on provides a mechanism that closes this vulnerability, or there are other effective methods that prevent remote attackers being able to create traffic triggered state in routers, I think they're well worth pursing. Regards, Mark. From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 23:10:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 266193A699C for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 23:10:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.681 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.681 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=0.814, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sVvUKirGPzjz for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 23:10:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE29E3A68D9 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 23:10:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzkqG-000NXZ-BI for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 06:03:52 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.141] (helo=ams-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1NzkqD-000NX0-96 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Thu, 08 Apr 2010 06:03:50 +0000 Authentication-Results: ams-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,168,1270425600"; d="scan'208";a="5317531" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 08 Apr 2010 05:28:25 +0000 Received: from dhcp-osl-vl300-64-103-53-209.cisco.com (dhcp-osl-vl300-64-103-53-209.cisco.com [64.103.53.209]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o3863kDX029748; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 06:03:46 GMT Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:03:49 +0200 Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <42376A44-CBC3-4AEE-80BE-97E73CD73E9E@cisco.com> References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> <5051C617-022D-4B8B-916E-319E404CCABF@cisco.com> <67F41198-B54F-41A5-9A6C-F9B2DD158915@cisco.com> <94996DC0-929D-4B15-94D0-9F6C750A5601@cisco.com> To: Philip Homburg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > In your letter dated Wed, 7 Apr 2010 10:47:58 +0200 you wrote: >> in the following figure from the draft: >>=20 >> | / >> | Customer / >> | Internet connection / >> Wi | >> +------+--------+ \ >> | IPv6 | \ >> | Customer Edge | \ >> | Router | / >> +---+-------+-+-+ / >> Network A | | Network B | End-User >> ---+-------------+----+- --+--+-------------+--- |network(s) >> | | | | \ >> +----+-----+ +-----+----+ +----+-----+ +-----+----+ \ >> |IPv6 Host | |IPv6 Host | | IPv6 Host| |IPv6 Host | / >> | | | | | | | | / >> +----------+ +-----+----+ +----------+ +----------+/ >>=20 >> you have a source S on the Internet sending to a destination D on =3D >> Network A. D does not exist on network A. you previously said you = wanted =3D >> an ICMP error to use a source address giving most information about =3D= >> where the problem occurred, i.e the IPv6 CE router's address on the =3D= >> interface to network A. >>=20 >> the ICMP error message will be sent back to S through interface Wi. >>=20 >> the strong host model will require that the ICMP message is sent with = an =3D >> address from Wi. >> the weak host model allows the use of a source address from the =3D >> interface connected to network A. >=20 > No. The interface attached to network A will generate the ICMP when=20 > neighbor discovery fails and will use its own IP address. It will then = pass > the ICMP to the default router associated with interface A. Because = the node > itself is a router, it can forward the packet internally and the = packet will > probably leave over Wi. _iff_ you modeled your router as a host stack per interface with an = internally routed network between the logical host stacks, you might = pretend this is still the strong host model. for the systems I know, what you describe is the weak host model. again, can you please explain what problem you are trying to solve and = how WPD-6 in the draft prohibits that? /ot From uk@megatron.ietf.org Wed Apr 7 23:23:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D8CB13A69C0 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 23:23:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 23:23:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 21plus.org (unknown [59.163.210.232]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 43C983A69E2 for ; Wed, 7 Apr 2010 23:22:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Your Future Order with 79% off retail To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100408062218.43C983A69E2@core3.amsl.com> Date: Wed, 7 Apr 2010 23:22:17 -0700 (PDT)
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From v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Thu Apr 8 05:13:15 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C8753A69C9 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 05:13:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.489 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.489 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_VERIZON_P=2.144, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL=1.495, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, NUMERIC_HTTP_ADDR=0.001, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_PH_SURBL=1.787, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ymh6BF8FKZ83 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 05:13:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool-96-232-157-47.nycmny.fios.verizon.net (pool-96-232-157-47.nycmny.fios.verizon.net [96.232.157.47]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 119803A6915 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 05:13:07 -0700 (PDT) From: "Viagra Pharmacy #1" To: v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Subject: To user v6ops-archive: 70% prices slashing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100408121308.119803A6915@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 05:13:07 -0700 (PDT) Newsletter
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From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Thu Apr 8 05:14:08 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE42A3A68C4 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 05:14:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -11.49 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-11.49 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_VERIZON_P=2.144, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_VERIZON_POOL=1.495, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_20=1.546, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.383, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_3=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, SARE_FROM_DRUGS=1.666, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_PH_SURBL=1.787, URIBL_SC_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, URI_HEX=0.368, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ffd8NFHvlCS8 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 05:14:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pool-96-232-157-47.nycmny.fios.verizon.net (pool-96-232-157-47.nycmny.fios.verizon.net [96.232.157.47]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 681F43A6A4E for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 05:13:28 -0700 (PDT) From: "Viagra Pharmacy #1" To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: To user v6ops-archive: 70% prices slashing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100408121328.681F43A6A4E@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 05:13:28 -0700 (PDT) Newsletter
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From secmech-request@lists.ietf.org Thu Apr 8 08:41:37 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A7113A6452 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:41:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from advantech.it (unknown [92.60.29.46]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 691F63A680E for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:41:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Confirmation ref # [935255] To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100408154134.691F63A680E@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:41:27 -0700 (PDT)
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From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Thu Apr 8 18:59:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60BF63A6852 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 18:59:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -67.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-67.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4llKqxTIAglE for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 18:59:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agreeneflvs80234.tk (unknown [119.110.85.126]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id D37EE3A68D8 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 18:59:42 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Hi, I'm like blond and cute, can I talk with you? From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100409015942.D37EE3A68D8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 18:59:42 -0700 (PDT) Hello my name is Marina! I like your picture!
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 8 23:30:07 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2947B3A67EB for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:30:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.435 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.435 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.929, BAYES_20=-0.74, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ww3Gg74ssqqE for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34FF63A67EC for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:30:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O07c9-0006iI-Hy for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 06:22:49 +0000 Received: from [119.145.14.67] (helo=szxga04-in.huawei.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O07c5-0006hJ-SX for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 06:22:47 +0000 Received: from huawei.com (szxga04-in [172.24.2.12]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L0L00JNCJ1BZW@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:22:23 +0800 (CST) Received: from huawei.com ([172.24.2.119]) by szxga04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTP id <0L0L00A7EJ1A5T@szxga04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:22:22 +0800 (CST) Received: from j66104a ([10.111.12.115]) by szxml04-in.huawei.com (iPlanet Messaging Server 5.2 HotFix 2.14 (built Aug 8 2006)) with ESMTPA id <0L0L00GH2J1ATA@szxml04-in.huawei.com> for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:22:22 +0800 (CST) Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 14:22:22 +0800 From: Sheng Jiang Subject: RE: draft-jiang-v6ops-nc-protection-01.txt In-reply-to: <20100408071454.40517170@opy.nosense.org> To: 'Mark Smith' , "'Hemant Singh (shemant)'" Cc: 'IPv6 Operations' Message-id: <00eb01cad7ad$041b6a20$730c6f0a@china.huawei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Thread-index: AcrWnSJ49iTgsMjtS8iJSfpGJNIgYABD06sg Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org > [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Smith > Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 5:45 AM > To: Hemant Singh (shemant) > Cc: IPv6 Operations > Subject: Re: draft-jiang-v6ops-nc-protection-01.txt > > On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:24:38 -0500 > "Hemant Singh (shemant)" wrote: > > > The problem this document is trying to solve and any other > ND related > > security problem can be solved by use of SEND. > > It seems to me that SEND is protecting against illegitimate > ND traffic. > The specific problem as I see it is that SEND won't protect > against illegitimate _non-ND_ traffic i.e. offlink traffic to > non-existent onlink destinations (i.e. enters router on > interface A (Internet), exits on interface B (LAN /64), > triggers ND on subnet attached to interface B), that then > triggers legitimate ND traffic. So SEND will ensure the > router's NS is a legitimate one, but SEND doesn't verify that > the destination address in the NS exists, without creating > state in the router to allow the SEND ND transaction to > complete. The attack is about remotely being able to utilise > outstanding NS state in the router to trigger the DoS. > > > If SEND is not used, as > > I said on the mike, read section 5.3 of the RFC 4861 which > will purge > > bogus entries due to NUD timeout. This document is of no > use at all. > > > > I've had a look at that section of 4861, and I don't think what is > stated there will prevent this issue. > > Firstly it says that there is no need for active garbage collection > under normal circumstances, as NUD will purge entries that become > stale. However, the specific issue occurs before NUD kicks in - NUD > fundamentally detects a neighbor disappearing, after it has existed. > > This attack is taking advantage of a neighbor never existing in the > first place. The vulnerability is in the state that is kept while the > initial ND NS is outstanding, for an address that doesn't exist. > > Secondly, it says that if there is a need to limit the size of the > Neighbor Cache, then a least recently used policy should be used to > purge entries, with a period of use up to 10 minutes. > > So it seems to me that there are potentially three types of entries in > the Neighbor Cache: > > (1) Valid entries i.e. NS/NA has completed, and NUD will detect if > and when the neighbor disappears. > > (2) Incomplete entries for valid addresses. NS has been issued, > waiting for a corresponding NA to arrive. > > (3) Incomplete entries for non-existent addresses. NS has been issued, > waiting for an NA that will never arrive. This is the attacker's > traffic, generated by incrementing through the /64 (LAN or P2P link) > > > If the attacker fills up the neighbor cache with (3) entries, then > presumably the LRU garbage collection routine will kick in straight > away. If it's as simple as that described in RFC4861, then I > think it's > probable that it'll start purging (1) and (2) entries, because the > attacker is both creating and therefore keeping the (3) entries most > recently used. By removing (1) and (2) entries, it creates a DoS for > existing nodes for which the router has already completed the NS/NA > transaction, and for existing nodes for with the router has an > outstanding NS. The neighbor cache can end up with no completed > entries, only (2)s and (3)s, resulting in a complete DoS for > legitimate > offlink sources trying to access the link. > > If the garbage routine is more selective that what is specified in > RFC4861, and restricts it's LRU purging to Incomplete NS/NA > transactions, then it still causes a DoS for existing nodes that > haven't completed their NS/NA transaction. This is certainly > significantly better than the simple garbage collection routine, > however it still facilitates a remotely triggered DoS for nodes that > may have recently become available. > > If the draft you are commenting on provides a mechanism that closes > this vulnerability, or there are other effective methods that prevent > remote attackers being able to create traffic triggered state in > routers, I think they're well worth pursing. That's exactly what we are aiming to. We admit that our mechanism may not be able to solve this vulnerability totally. But it reduces the rish very largely. Quantitatively, it reduces the attack frequency to a level less that 1% before. Regards, Sheng > Regards, > Mark. > > > > From secmech-request@lists.ietf.org Thu Apr 8 23:33:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C30E3A67EC for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:33:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:33:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ageun.com (unknown [121.97.221.123]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 39D3E3A67EB for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:32:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Sales Event get 78% off To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100409063302.39D3E3A67EB@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:32:59 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Thu Apr 8 23:39:44 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35423A6829 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:39:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=4.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ueMzowhOtn6M for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 791FF3A67EA for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:39:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O07ql-00081V-8C for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 06:37:55 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O07qi-00081A-E1 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 06:37:52 +0000 Authentication-Results: ams-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,176,1270425600"; d="scan'208";a="59175576" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Apr 2010 06:37:50 +0000 Received: from ams-otroan-8712.cisco.com (ams-otroan-8712.cisco.com [10.55.160.147]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o396boqb018328; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 06:37:50 GMT Subject: Re: draft-jiang-v6ops-nc-protection-01.txt Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Ole Troan In-Reply-To: <00eb01cad7ad$041b6a20$730c6f0a@china.huawei.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:37:49 +0200 Cc: "'Mark Smith'" , "'Hemant Singh (shemant)'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <9465019D-3119-4288-BCCC-FD72A610A915@cisco.com> References: <00eb01cad7ad$041b6a20$730c6f0a@china.huawei.com> To: Sheng Jiang X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org=20 >> [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Smith >> Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2010 5:45 AM >> To: Hemant Singh (shemant) >> Cc: IPv6 Operations >> Subject: Re: draft-jiang-v6ops-nc-protection-01.txt >>=20 >> On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 12:24:38 -0500 >> "Hemant Singh (shemant)" wrote: >>=20 >>> The problem this document is trying to solve and any other=20 >> ND related=20 >>> security problem can be solved by use of SEND. >>=20 >> It seems to me that SEND is protecting against illegitimate=20 >> ND traffic. >> The specific problem as I see it is that SEND won't protect=20 >> against illegitimate _non-ND_ traffic i.e. offlink traffic to=20 >> non-existent onlink destinations (i.e. enters router on=20 >> interface A (Internet), exits on interface B (LAN /64),=20 >> triggers ND on subnet attached to interface B), that then=20 >> triggers legitimate ND traffic. So SEND will ensure the=20 >> router's NS is a legitimate one, but SEND doesn't verify that=20 >> the destination address in the NS exists, without creating=20 >> state in the router to allow the SEND ND transaction to=20 >> complete. The attack is about remotely being able to utilise=20 >> outstanding NS state in the router to trigger the DoS. >>=20 >>> If SEND is not used, as >>> I said on the mike, read section 5.3 of the RFC 4861 which=20 >> will purge=20 >>> bogus entries due to NUD timeout. This document is of no=20 >> use at all. >>>=20 >>=20 >> I've had a look at that section of 4861, and I don't think what is >> stated there will prevent this issue. >>=20 >> Firstly it says that there is no need for active garbage collection >> under normal circumstances, as NUD will purge entries that become >> stale. However, the specific issue occurs before NUD kicks in - NUD >> fundamentally detects a neighbor disappearing, after it has existed. >>=20 >> This attack is taking advantage of a neighbor never existing in the >> first place. The vulnerability is in the state that is kept while the >> initial ND NS is outstanding, for an address that doesn't exist. >>=20 >> Secondly, it says that if there is a need to limit the size of the >> Neighbor Cache, then a least recently used policy should be used to >> purge entries, with a period of use up to 10 minutes. >>=20 >> So it seems to me that there are potentially three types of entries = in >> the Neighbor Cache: >>=20 >> (1) Valid entries i.e. NS/NA has completed, and NUD will detect if >> and when the neighbor disappears. >>=20 >> (2) Incomplete entries for valid addresses. NS has been issued, >> waiting for a corresponding NA to arrive. >>=20 >> (3) Incomplete entries for non-existent addresses. NS has been = issued, >> waiting for an NA that will never arrive. This is the attacker's >> traffic, generated by incrementing through the /64 (LAN or P2P link) >>=20 >>=20 >> If the attacker fills up the neighbor cache with (3) entries, then >> presumably the LRU garbage collection routine will kick in straight >> away. If it's as simple as that described in RFC4861, then I=20 >> think it's >> probable that it'll start purging (1) and (2) entries, because the >> attacker is both creating and therefore keeping the (3) entries most >> recently used. By removing (1) and (2) entries, it creates a DoS for >> existing nodes for which the router has already completed the NS/NA >> transaction, and for existing nodes for with the router has an >> outstanding NS. The neighbor cache can end up with no completed >> entries, only (2)s and (3)s, resulting in a complete DoS for=20 >> legitimate >> offlink sources trying to access the link. >>=20 >> If the garbage routine is more selective that what is specified in >> RFC4861, and restricts it's LRU purging to Incomplete NS/NA >> transactions, then it still causes a DoS for existing nodes that >> haven't completed their NS/NA transaction. This is certainly >> significantly better than the simple garbage collection routine, >> however it still facilitates a remotely triggered DoS for nodes that >> may have recently become available. >>=20 >> If the draft you are commenting on provides a mechanism that closes >> this vulnerability, or there are other effective methods that prevent >> remote attackers being able to create traffic triggered state in >> routers, I think they're well worth pursing. >=20 > That's exactly what we are aiming to. We admit that our mechanism may = not be > able to solve this vulnerability totally. But it reduces the rish very > largely. Quantitatively, it reduces the attack frequency to a level = less > that 1% before. but only for on-link attacks? it does nothing for off-link attacks, = correct? /ot= From uri-review-request@megatron.ietf.org Thu Apr 8 23:54:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C643A6767 for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:54:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:54:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from triband-mum-120.62.0.110.mtnl.net.in (triband-mum-120.62.0.110.mtnl.net.in [120.62.0.110]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 078923A67EC for ; Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:54:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Special Code for 76% for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100409065446.078923A67EC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 8 Apr 2010 23:54:43 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 9 02:09:10 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A64F3A69CD for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 02:09:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.494 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.494 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GuBnDj4bx4iw for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 02:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 120E53A699A for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 02:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O0A8l-000BL3-8O for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 09:04:39 +0000 Received: from [144.254.224.140] (helo=ams-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O0A8h-000B8g-Fd for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 09:04:36 +0000 Authentication-Results: ams-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AjICAJuKvkuQ/uCWe2dsb2JhbACBPY4vi08VAQELCyIGHKAUmSqCS4I+BA X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,176,1270425600"; d="scan'208,217";a="59182076" Received: from ams-core-1.cisco.com ([144.254.224.150]) by ams-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Apr 2010 09:04:24 +0000 Received: from xbh-ams-201.cisco.com (xbh-ams-201.cisco.com [144.254.75.7]) by ams-core-1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o3994OS2021863 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 09:04:24 GMT Received: from xmb-ams-101.cisco.com ([144.254.74.76]) by xbh-ams-201.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 9 Apr 2010 11:04:23 +0200 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01CAD7C3.A6043C33" Subject: Status update: draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-guard-04.txt - When sent to IESG? Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 11:04:21 +0200 Message-ID: <4269EA985EACD24987D82DAE2FEC62E50148F318@XMB-AMS-101.cisco.com> X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: Status update: draft-ietf-v6ops-ra-guard-04.txt - When sent to IESG? Thread-Index: AcrXw6TITPP7RigtQZWk+Afjyi7NwA== From: "Gunter Van de Velde (gvandeve)" To: X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Apr 2010 09:04:23.0847 (UTC) FILETIME=[A6150370:01CAD7C3] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD7C3.A6043C33 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi folks, =20 This document went through WGLC few times and is for the moment sleeping already for some time already unfortunatly. Is there any chance of moving this work forward to the IESG to close the activity and get the final document pushed out? =20 Many thanks, G/ ------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD7C3.A6043C33 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi folks,

 

This document went through WGLC few times and is = for the moment sleeping already for some time already = unfortunatly.

Is there any chance of moving this work forward to = the IESG to close the activity and get the final document pushed out?

 

Many thanks,

G/

------_=_NextPart_001_01CAD7C3.A6043C33-- From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 9 02:45:02 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 116B73A68B7 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 02:45:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.437 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.437 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HELO_MISMATCH_NET=0.611, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SHpkOQPZBCu6 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 02:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E0B93A68D9 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 02:44:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O0Aia-000B8G-H6 for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 09:41:40 +0000 Received: from [130.37.15.35] (helo=stereo.hq.phicoh.net) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O0AiW-000B7s-DF for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 09:41:38 +0000 Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #2) id m1O0AiP-0001c6C; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 11:41 +0200 Message-Id: To: Ole Troan Cc: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org Subject: Re: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 From: Philip Homburg References: <9699A364-5C24-4672-B525-E1E57E3B0A54@cisco.com> <5051C617-022D-4B8B-916E-319E404CCABF@cisco.com> <67F41198-B54F-41A5-9A6C-F9B2DD158915@cisco.com> <94996DC0-929D-4B15-94D0-9F6C750A5601@cisco.com> <42376A44-CBC3-4AEE-80BE-97E73CD73E9E@cisco.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:03:49 +0200 ." <42376A44-CBC3-4AEE-80BE-97E73CD73E9E@cisco.com> Date: Fri, 09 Apr 2010 11:41:28 +0200 Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: In your letter dated Thu, 8 Apr 2010 08:03:49 +0200 you wrote: >again, can you please explain what problem you are trying to solve and = >how WPD-6 in the draft prohibits that? What we were discussing lately was about WAA-8 and WAA-9. WPD-6 is minor issue. I very much prefer that a real routing protocol, such as RIPng, is used between routers to advertise a default route. In my opinion, Route Advertisements are getting way too overloaded: on the host side with information that is not related to routing (and addressing) such the DNS option. And on the router side by advertising not just a default router for a host (which may not have a default route to the internet) but the actual default route itself. From v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Fri Apr 9 03:31:43 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 841D43A689A for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 03:31:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -82.279 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-82.279 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HOST_EQ_STATIC=1.172, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CBeBZB60RYAn for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 03:31:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host52.200-69-136.static.telmex.net.ar (host52.200-69-136.static.telmex.net.ar [200.69.136.52]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 992A83A6407 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 03:31:41 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Hi, I'm like blond and cute, can I talk with you? From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100409103141.992A83A6407@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 03:31:41 -0700 (PDT) Hello my name is Marina! I like your picture!
I am looking for some serious relationship! I hope to learn more about you !
Please send your answer to my personal email: marina@internet-rmail.com because I'm writing from my job,
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My mail From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Fri Apr 9 03:46:48 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6206D3A68BC for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 03:46:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -66.215 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-66.215 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_PL=1.135, HELO_MISMATCH_PL=1.448, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RDNS_NONE=0.1, URIBL_SBL=20, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HCl+xrWzmJIe for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 03:46:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amrest.com.pl (unknown [178.176.213.81]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 569873A689A for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 03:46:41 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Hello, you have a nice picture in the dating site, would you mind to chat? From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100409104643.569873A689A@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 03:46:41 -0700 (PDT) Hello my name is Marina! I like your picture!
I am looking for some serious relationship! I hope to learn more about you !
Please send your answer to my personal email: marina@internet-rmail.com because I'm writing from my job,
and the system administrator can erase your answer :((
Your new friend Marina :-))

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My mail From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Fri Apr 9 06:56:51 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD9053A6874 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 06:56:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -8.495 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-8.495 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-0.000, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jQfNhSb6NG58 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 06:56:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64D83A6808 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 06:56:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O0EbK-000IqX-FM for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:50:26 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.148] (helo=rtp-iport-1.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O0EbH-000Ipx-7z for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Fri, 09 Apr 2010 13:50:24 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-1.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,177,1270425600"; d="scan'208";a="100238082" Received: from rcdn-core-5.cisco.com ([173.37.93.156]) by rtp-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP; 09 Apr 2010 13:50:21 +0000 Received: from xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com (xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com [72.163.62.201]) by rcdn-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o39DoL6h003832; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:50:21 GMT Received: from xmb-rcd-201.cisco.com ([72.163.62.208]) by xbh-rcd-202.cisco.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:50:21 -0500 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft Exchange V6.5 Content-class: urn:content-classes:message MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: RE: FW: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 08:50:20 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Thread-Topic: FW: WPD-6, WAA-8, and WAA-9 of draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 Thread-Index: AcrWl4d+Ir55uaAcSVGz1G2dPLuMgQBUpnQA References: <20100407153637.GI69383@Space.Net> From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" To: "Philip Homburg" , "Gert Doering" Cc: , X-OriginalArrivalTime: 09 Apr 2010 13:50:21.0771 (UTC) FILETIME=[990071B0:01CAD7EB] Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: > Please explain how you would get a connected route? Even though the SP router may create a=20 > NC entry for the address, I don't why it would also consider the address to be onlink.=20 > Unless you consider every address with a NC entry to be onlink.=20 Considering every address with a NC entry to be onlink is, exactly, what RFC 4861 does until http://www.ietf.org/id/draft-ietf-6man-ipv6-subnet-model-10.txt came along, which updates RFC 4861 (and is currently in the IESG queue). However, I believe that, in this case, even though the SP router WILL observe and possibly react to the NS(DAD), and may (if not updated by subnet-model yet), create a connected route to that address, I believe that in this particular case, the forwarding answer is the same whether it considers the destination to be off-link or on-link - because the destination of a forwarded packet is the same - in this particular, quirky case (not in general). And, the fact that the interface will now respond to an NS with an NA (whereas it didn't before), I think will be OK - because the behavior is a strict superset of what it had before. So - I believe that in this particular case, where you assign an address from the off-link pool to the interface that would otherwise get the packet if considered off-link, will actually work.=20 You got lucky this time, but in general, when you mess around with on-link determination you usually end up with no connectivity. - Wes From vaa27223@ietf.org Fri Apr 9 12:42:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21F9D3A6A96 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 12:42:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 12:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 122-159-246-201.adsl.terra.cl (122-159-246-201.adsl.terra.cl [201.246.159.122]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 74AB73A6A50 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 12:36:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Special Discount 70% for v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100409193639.74AB73A6A50@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 12:36:36 -0700 (PDT)
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From vaa27223@ietf.org Fri Apr 9 13:17:55 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 896CE3A69A2 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:17:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alum.rpi.edu (unknown [186.28.190.23]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3D3ED3A697F for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:17:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: New Private Message for v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100409201750.3D3ED3A697F@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:17:47 -0700 (PDT)
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From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Fri Apr 9 13:42:22 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 150643A68AC for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:42:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -87.627 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-87.627 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.185, FH_HOST_ALMOST_IP=1.889, FH_HOST_EQ_DYNAMICIP=2.177, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HOST_MISMATCH_NET=0.311, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 10jniPbn1Pue for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:42:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 219-81-226-61.dynamic.tfn.net.tw (219-81-226-61.dynamic.tfn.net.tw [219.81.226.61]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 2083A3A63EC for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:42:16 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Hello here, do you like girls from russia? I hope so :) From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100409204220.2083A3A63EC@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 13:42:16 -0700 (PDT) Hello my name is Marina! I like your picture!
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My mail From v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Fri Apr 9 14:04:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 257903A679C for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:04:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:04:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agora.bungi.com (unknown [121.245.75.91]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 82BF13A67A1 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:04:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: New Private Message for v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100409210408.82BF13A67A1@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:04:07 -0700 (PDT)
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From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Fri Apr 9 14:52:46 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9A323A6A46 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:52:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 119-67-223-201.adsl.terra.cl (119-67-223-201.adsl.terra.cl [201.223.67.119]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A49D03A6A27 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:52:31 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Sales Event get 76% off To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100409215237.A49D03A6A27@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 14:52:31 -0700 (PDT)
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From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Fri Apr 9 21:13:33 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3EF703A6ACC for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:13:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -86.251 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-86.251 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rVa331ZqFd5O for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:13:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from amebacctv.com (unknown [189.75.40.167]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B55953A69C1 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:13:24 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Hi, I'm like blond and cute, can I talk with you? From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100410041326.B55953A69C1@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:13:24 -0700 (PDT) Hello my name is Marina! I like your picture!
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My mail From secmech-request@lists.ietf.org Fri Apr 9 21:13:38 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A6B23A69C1 for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:13:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: <5wjwL2ZPHZM7> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pc-18-246-100-190.cm.vtr.net (pc-18-246-100-190.cm.vtr.net [190.100.246.18]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A857B3A6A0F for ; Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:13:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Your Future Order with 70% off retail To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100410041332.A857B3A6A0F@core3.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 9 Apr 2010 21:13:26 -0700 (PDT)
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From smf-discussion@lists.ietf.org Sat Apr 10 01:05:18 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D64C3A68A2 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 01:05:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -79.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-79.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LcarGP82wJT9 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 01:05:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ppp95-165-60-108.pppoe.spdop.ru (ppp95-165-60-108.pppoe.spdop.ru [95.165.60.108]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 61B573A6964 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 01:05:11 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Hi, I'm like blond and cute, can I talk with you? From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100410080514.61B573A6964@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 01:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Hello my name is Marina! I like your picture!
I am looking for some serious relationship! I hope to learn more about you !
Please send your answer to my personal email: marina@internet-rmail.com because I'm writing from my job,
and the system administrator can erase your answer :((
Your new friend Marina :-))

my photo:

My mail From vaa27223@ietf.org Sat Apr 10 06:12:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1ABA3A68E7 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:12:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:12:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alusash.co.kr (unknown [122.167.224.237]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A676B3A68AF for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:12:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Confirmation ref # [482175] To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100410131226.A676B3A68AF@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:12:20 -0700 (PDT)
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From smf-discussion@lists.ietf.org Sat Apr 10 06:47:01 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE3923A6927 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:47:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:47:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 46-140-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net (46-140-133-95.pool.ukrtel.net [95.133.140.46]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 42D343A68CE for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:46:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: You have a new personal message To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100410134659.42D343A68CE@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 06:46:55 -0700 (PDT)
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From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Sat Apr 10 07:24:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A70123A69AA for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:24:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:24:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aist.go.jp (unknown [200.35.38.236]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id EB4253A69BA for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:24:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Confirmation ref # [983531] To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100410142427.EB4253A69BA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:24:27 -0700 (PDT)
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From ux@megatron.ietf.org Sat Apr 10 07:40:30 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A5C033A67A6 for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:40:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from akira.jp (unknown [94.137.8.62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 960A23A63EB for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:40:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: New Private Message for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100410144027.960A23A63EB@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 07:40:26 -0700 (PDT)
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From syslog@lists.ietf.org Sat Apr 10 11:09:45 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0AAF13A68DB for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 11:09:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -80.129 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-80.129 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_80=2, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_CUST=0.245, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bBkMLahKRkXT for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 11:09:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from host-95-140-207-90.customers.adc.am (host-95-140-207-90.customers.adc.am [95.140.207.90]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CAFE43A68AA for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 11:09:39 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Hi, I like your picture in the dating site. Let's communicate? From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100410180942.CAFE43A68AA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 11:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Hello my name is Marina! I like your picture!
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and the system administrator can erase your answer :((
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My mail From ux@megatron.ietf.org Sat Apr 10 23:07:04 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AEFD93A696E for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:07:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: <67AIPBDcfZ+Q> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:07:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 1access.net (unknown [94.182.218.50]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id A35373A696B for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:06:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Special Discount 77% for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100411060700.A35373A696B@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:06:59 -0700 (PDT)
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From secmech-request@lists.ietf.org Sat Apr 10 23:53:14 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69C13A67CF for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:53:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:53:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from agoreva.com (unknown [121.242.103.202]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D7DB3A67BD for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:53:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: News on myspace To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100411065312.9D7DB3A67BD@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:53:09 -0700 (PDT)
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From syslog@lists.ietf.org Sat Apr 10 23:58:20 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B1CF3A681F for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:58:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -70.463 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-70.463 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_95=3, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wAT1SNKUMrhN for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:58:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 89-232-225-43.pppoe-adsl.isurgut.ru (89-232-225-43.pppoe-adsl.isurgut.ru [89.232.225.43]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CA1453A67BD for ; Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:58:15 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Hello, you have a nice picture in the dating site, would you mind to chat? From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100411065817.CA1453A67BD@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 10 Apr 2010 23:58:15 -0700 (PDT) Hello my name is Marina! I like your picture!
I am looking for some serious relationship! I hope to learn more about you !
Please send your answer to my personal email: marina@internet-rmail.com because I'm writing from my job,
and the system administrator can erase your answer :((
Your new friend Marina :-))

my photo:

My mail From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org Sun Apr 11 00:34:57 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B0EE3A6821 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 00:34:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 00:34:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from acv-csc.be (unknown [122.172.32.128]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 3A0823A67EA for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 00:34:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Your Future Order with 76% off retail To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100411073454.3A0823A67EA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 00:34:53 -0700 (PDT)
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From rps-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Apr 11 01:46:32 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E3543A6890 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 01:46:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -73.794 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-73.794 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, HELO_DYNAMIC_HCC=4.295, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR=2.426, HELO_EQ_DSL=1.129, HELO_EQ_RU=0.595, HOST_EQ_RU=0.875, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JEGJZg83FbUE for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 01:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dnm.68.121.188.95.dsl.krasnet.ru (dnm.21.118.188.95.dsl.krasnet.ru [95.188.118.21]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7BD113A67EA for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 01:46:21 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Hi, I like your picture in the dating site. Let's communicate? From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100411084628.7BD113A67EA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 01:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Hello my name is Marina! I like your picture!
I am looking for some serious relationship! I hope to learn more about you !
Please send your answer to my personal email: marina@internet-rmail.com because I'm writing from my job,
and the system administrator can erase your answer :((
Your new friend Marina :-))

my photo:

My mail From rddp-bounces@megatron.ietf.org Sun Apr 11 07:40:23 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D928F3A6899 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 07:40:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -85.142 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-85.142 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_08=1.787, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E4_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D-bibPXniVjP for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 07:40:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vulture2-nat-44.telecom.by (vulture2-nat-44.telecom.by [213.184.224.44]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 88B943A67FE for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 07:40:17 -0700 (PDT) To: Subject: Hello here, do you like girls from russia? I hope so :) From: MIME-Version: 1.0 Importance: High Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100411144021.88B943A67FE@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 07:40:17 -0700 (PDT) Hello my name is Marina! I like your picture!
I am looking for some serious relationship! I hope to learn more about you !
Please send your answer to my personal email: marina@internet-rmail.com because I'm writing from my job,
and the system administrator can erase your answer :((
Your new friend Marina :-))

my photo:

My mail From ux@megatron.ietf.org Sun Apr 11 08:16:11 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E5C53A68EC for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:16:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:16:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 90-194-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net (150-136-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net [95.135.136.150]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DD4AC3A67F8 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:16:07 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: New Private Message for v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100411151608.DD4AC3A67F8@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 08:16:07 -0700 (PDT)
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From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Sun Apr 11 10:35:19 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A96A43A67F4 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:35:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: \251 Pfizer Inc \256 1[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -20.421 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-20.421 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_12=2.46, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_PBL=0.905, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_PH_SURBL=1.787, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nDU+1Zda8rBq for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:35:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 138-0-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net (138-0-135-95.pool.ukrtel.net [95.135.0.138]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id CA3CA3A67DA for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:35:17 -0700 (PDT) From: © Pfizer Inc ® 1971-2010 To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org April 43% OFF. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100411173517.CA3CA3A67DA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 10:35:17 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Apr 11 13:06:16 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 588D83A677C for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 13:06:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -109.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-109.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.053, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-8, RDNS_NONE=0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vrP+3VaSEx0H for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 13:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 017593A672E for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 13:06:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O13JE-00054N-IQ for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:59:08 +0000 Received: from [64.102.122.149] (helo=rtp-iport-2.cisco.com) by psg.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O13JA-00052g-U5 for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:59:05 +0000 Authentication-Results: rtp-iport-2.cisco.com; dkim=neutral (message not signed) header.i=none X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: AiQFAPDGwUtAZnwN/2dsb2JhbACBPZoJcZ1rl3SFDASDJQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="4.52,185,1270425600"; d="scan'208,217";a="100819018" Received: from rtp-core-2.cisco.com ([64.102.124.13]) by rtp-iport-2.cisco.com with ESMTP; 11 Apr 2010 19:59:03 +0000 Received: from stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com (stealth-10-32-244-222.cisco.com [10.32.244.222]) by rtp-core-2.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.14.3) with ESMTP id o3BJx2mU014916 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:59:03 GMT From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-7-650966484 Subject: WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 12:59:02 -0700 Message-Id: <118FE8EC-41DF-4907-AE1C-2B7185477D64@cisco.com> To: IPv6 v6ops Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --Apple-Mail-7-650966484 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As agreed at the last IETF meeting, I am opening a two week WGLC of = draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt. Please read the document, = comment to this list on matters of substance, and send nits = (spelling/grammar, word choice, sentence structure comments) to the = authors. http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF --Apple-Mail-7-650966484 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii As agreed at the last IETF meeting, I = am opening a two week WGLC of = draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt. Please read = the document, comment to this list on matters of substance, and = send nits (spelling/grammar, word choice, sentence structure comments) = to the authors.


= = --Apple-Mail-7-650966484-- From vaa26686@ietf.org Sun Apr 11 13:08:52 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B78E33A67F3 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 13:08:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 13:08:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 16emezzo.it (unknown [189.83.135.164]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 4D9C43A67B4 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 13:08:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: New Private Message for v6ops-archive@ietf.org To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100411200850.4D9C43A67B4@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 13:08:45 -0700 (PDT)
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From v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org Sun Apr 11 14:20:24 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 671973A672E for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:20:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:20:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cable-89-216-181-153.dynamic.sbb.rs (cable-89-216-181-153.dynamic.sbb.rs [89.216.181.153]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id E6BA33A67E9 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:19:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: Sales Event get 77% off To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100411211958.E6BA33A67E9@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 14:19:57 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Sun Apr 11 15:17:34 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E5403A67A1 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:17:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.547 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.547 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[AWL=-1.052, BAYES_00=-2.599, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_MISMATCH_COM=0.553, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3ruBVhjFoaQf for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18F673A63EC for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:17:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O15PU-000Ga8-1U for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:13:44 +0000 Received: from [209.85.221.189] (helo=mail-qy0-f189.google.com) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O15PR-000GZv-8i for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 22:13:41 +0000 Received: by qyk27 with SMTP id 27so6882321qyk.23 for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:13:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from :organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject:references :in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=UbG9lvMCh4QjB/23YOz4unlKkY7f7uxwI7Nz0P31reA=; b=kj0b/gaEsx5xQaRsXY3EnrlckzB8i2hm39q3NLZFspeEUGTruym5dVHsCfLCXLWpeb o8mUFAQVyr/2P9OxEycSMYA+iPjyETsMiMjAKUhKi1Ne4i9OaC3ECC28Lo3nnXPlDUNt duA+bfVB/pNls9hJvpAjk+Ruu+SBOfif8LRsI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:organization:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc :subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=WqFUxPlt5W1mzkpEjP+TTSFtHIL4R8dL2SfzEfrK9SaLg4Pct4N2UweYMmNnBmbOR/ HuDXTXXDeNBWKsn4bQOqmJUg+qPj6ksHv/ECh5PHDisu6MN3TPAa47ENoOODQ4W8RPlg tpeLX2hcyuBxjee253uJyGqMoMH3dHUDEA4qU= Received: by 10.229.212.9 with SMTP id gq9mr2388802qcb.84.1271024019754; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.1.1.4] ([121.98.142.15]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id f5sm5165076qcg.20.2010.04.11.15.13.37 (version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Sun, 11 Apr 2010 15:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4BC2498C.1070902@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:13:32 +1200 From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Baker CC: IPv6 v6ops Subject: Re: WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt References: <118FE8EC-41DF-4907-AE1C-2B7185477D64@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <118FE8EC-41DF-4907-AE1C-2B7185477D64@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: I've read this version quite carefully and compared it to the previous few versions, and I believe it is a good statement of where we got to in the discussion. Regards Brian Carpenter On 2010-04-12 07:59, Fred Baker wrote: > As agreed at the last IETF meeting, I am opening a two week WGLC of draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt. Please read the document, comment to this list on matters of substance, and send nits (spelling/grammar, word choice, sentence structure comments) to the authors. > > http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF > > From urn-nid-web-archivedd@ietf.org Sun Apr 11 19:51:40 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C038D3A69CD for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:51:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char C2 hex): From: Approved VIAGRA\302\256 Store ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:51:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from aftaab.net (unknown [190.190.51.124]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 275E53A69CA for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:51:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Approved VIAGRA® Store Subject: You have a new personal message To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html Message-Id: <20100412025127.275E53A69CA@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 19:51:19 -0700 (PDT)
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From v6ops-archive@ietf.org Sun Apr 11 23:42:58 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 518F73A69DB for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:42:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER, Non-encoded 8-bit data (char A9 hex): From: \251 USA DOCTOR Ahm[...] X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -21.617 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-21.617 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_99=3.5, FH_HELO_EQ_D_D_D_D=1.597, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_D=0.765, FH_HOST_EQ_D_D_D_DB=0.888, FM_DDDD_TIMES_2=1.999, HELO_DYNAMIC_IPADDR2=4.395, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_12=2.46, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTML_SHORT_LINK_IMG_1=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, MIME_HTML_ONLY=1.457, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_51_100=0.5, RAZOR2_CF_RANGE_E8_51_100=1.5, RAZOR2_CHECK=0.5, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.96, RCVD_IN_SORBS_DUL=0.877, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=0.619, RCVD_IN_XBL=3.033, RDNS_DYNAMIC=0.1, TVD_RCVD_IP=1.931, URIBL_AB_SURBL=10, URIBL_BLACK=20, URIBL_JP_SURBL=10, URIBL_WS_SURBL=10, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IESl2WkXYe1x for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:42:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 254-121-207-82.ip.ukrtel.net (254-121-207-82.ip.ukrtel.net [82.207.121.254]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AAC423A69ED for ; Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:42:45 -0700 (PDT) From: © USA DOCTOR Ahmad To: v6ops-archive@ietf.org Subject: v6ops-archive@ietf.org April 63% OFF. MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <20100412064245.AAC423A69ED@core3.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 11 Apr 2010 23:42:45 -0700 (PDT)
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Mon Apr 12 04:44:36 2010 Return-Path: X-Original-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Delivered-To: ietfarch-v6ops-archive@core3.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 912833A67E2 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 04:44:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 3.087 X-Spam-Level: *** X-Spam-Status: No, score=3.087 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.001, FH_RELAY_NODNS=1.451, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, HTML_FONT_FACE_BAD=0.884, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RDNS_NONE=0.1] Received: from mail.ietf.org ([64.170.98.32]) by localhost (core3.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yMbWctUna6K0 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 04:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from psg.com (psg.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::62]) by core3.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6515A28C0E8 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 04:44:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from majordom by psg.com with local (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O1Hys-0002Te-RF for v6ops-data0@psg.com; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:39:06 +0000 Received: from [212.27.42.6] (helo=smtp6-g21.free.fr) by psg.com with esmtp (Exim 4.71 (FreeBSD)) (envelope-from ) id 1O1Hyp-0002Sz-Au for v6ops@ops.ietf.org; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 11:39:04 +0000 Received: from smtp6-g21.free.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp6-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id EA2F7E0809B for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:38:58 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [192.168.0.13] (per92-10-88-166-221-144.fbx.proxad.net [88.166.221.144]) by smtp6-g21.free.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E39ACE080A1 for ; Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:38:55 +0200 (CEST) From: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2-707359460 Subject: Re: WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 13:38:55 +0200 In-Reply-To: <118FE8EC-41DF-4907-AE1C-2B7185477D64@cisco.com> To: IPv6 v6ops References: <118FE8EC-41DF-4907-AE1C-2B7185477D64@cisco.com> Message-Id: <905B5470-1471-4643-8945-58985750961A@free.fr> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1078) Sender: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org Precedence: bulk List-ID: --Apple-Mail-2-707359460 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Le 11 avr. 2010 =E0 21:59, Fred Baker a =E9crit : > Please read the document, comment to this list on matters of = substance. Hi all, The document reflects to a good extent the consensus reached in Anaheim = (thanks to James for all his work on this), but it can, and IMHO it = should, be improved on the 2 following points: 1. A sentence of the introduction is in part self-contradictory. CURRENT SENTENCE: "The specific recommendations in this document are = intended to promote optimal local-area network security while retaining = full end-to-end transparency for users, and to highlight reasonable = limitations on transparency where security considerations are deemed = important." (Strictly speaking, if "full e2e transparency" is "retained", it = shouldn't be limited, even in a "reasonable" way.) PROPOSAL: "The specific recommendations in this document specify for = IPv6 a local-area network protection similar to that generally found = behind IPv4 NATs. Limitations to full IPv6 end-to-end network = transparency, unavoidable where this protection is supported, are = minimized." 2.In the summary of section 4, the introductory sentence seems to imply = that the document recommends *in general* the specified level of = protection, which is beyond the intent of the consensus. CURRENT SENTENCE: "This section collects all of the recommendations made = in this document into a convenient list." PROPOSAL: "This section collects into a convenient list all = recommendations made for CPEs that support the level of local-area = network protection specified in this document." Regards, RD --Apple-Mail-2-707359460 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Please read the document, comment to = this list on matters of = substance.

Hi = all,

The document reflects to a good extent the = consensus reached in Anaheim (thanks to James for all his work on this), = but it can, and IMHO it should, be improved on the 2 following = points:

1.
A sentence of the = introduction is in part self-contradictory.
CURRENT =
SENTENCE: "The specific recommendations in this document are intended to =
promote optimal local-area network security while retaining full =
end-to-end transparency for users, and to highlight reasonable =
limitations on transparency where security considerations are deemed =
important."
(Strictly speaking, if "full e2e transparency" is =
"retained", it shouldn't be limited, even in a "reasonable" =
way.)
PROPOSAL: "The specific recommendations in this =
document specify for IPv6 a local-area network protection similar to =
that generally found behind IPv4 NATs. Limitations to full IPv6 =
end-to-end network transparency, unavoidable where this protection is =
supported, are minimized."
2.In the summary =
of section 4, the introductory sentence seems to imply that the document =
recommends *in general* the
PROPOSAL: "This section =
collects into a convenient list all recommendations made for CPEs that =
support the level of local-area network protection =
specified in this document."

Regards,
RD


=

--Apple-Mail-2-707359460--


From urn-archive@ietf.org  Mon Apr 12 05:51:19 2010
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 12 08:57:10 2010
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From: Fred Baker 
Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=Apple-Mail-22-722482841
Subject: Fwd: LC review of draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 08:50:58 -0700
References: <7320_1271085353_4BC33928_7320_94535_1_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F30EFFCDADD7@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr>
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Begin forwarded message:

> From: 
> Date: April 12, 2010 8:15:50 AM PDT
> To: "jhw@apple.com" 
> Cc: Fred Baker 
> Subject: LC review of draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security
>=20
>=20
> Dear James,
>=20
> Please find attached my review of this draft.
>=20
>=20
> Cheers,
> Med
> *********************************
> This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and =
intended solely for the addressees.=20
> Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited.
> Messages are susceptible to alteration.=20
> France Telecom Group shall not be liable for the message if altered, =
changed or falsified.
> If you are not the intended addressee of this message, please cancel =
it immediately and inform the sender.
> ********************************
>=20

--Apple-Mail-22-722482841
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From: james woodyatt 
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Subject: procedures for working group last call
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:13:40 -0700
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Cc: IPv6 Operations 
To: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security.chairs@tools.ietf.org
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chairs--

I'm not sure I know what is the proper procedure for a technical editor =
to follow during the working group last call phase, so I plan to remain =
quiet on the subject of I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security until the end =
of the window unless I'm asked to speak up by one of the chairpersons.


--
james woodyatt 
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 12 11:42:50 2010
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Subject: Re: procedures for working group last call
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Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security.chairs@tools.ietf.org, IPv6 Operations 
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The process is that you collect comments made, determine whether they =
have merit, and if so edit them into the draft. For technical comments, =
that may require a discussion on the list. For editorial comments, use =
good editorial judgement. Question re Mohamed Boucadair's markup: Given =
that I know you prefer Apple's counterpart to Microsoft Office, I have =
to ask: do you run Microsoft Word on your computer? Are you able to read =
the comments?

Let me take one comment from his markup as an example. As a general =
comment, he raises a question that may warrant addressing, if only to =
say that it was deemed out of scope. The change to the abstract seems =
mostly editorial, but the comment regarding service provider policy is =
out of place given that the only other references to a "service =
provider" (prior to these edits) are (1) in section 2.1 stating that the =
CPE resides between a residential broadband customer and his service =
provider, and (2) in Recommendation 16, which says that "Filtering =
behavior SHOULD by endpoint independent by default in gateways intended =
for provisioning without service-provider management."=20

Use your editorial judgement on editorial comments; err in the direction =
of simplicity of language (active voice, short sentences, question every =
comma and conjunctive, etc). Spelling and grammatical changes are =
generally helpful to pick up. What is really important is technical =
commentary: if a recommendation is disputed or an oversight pointed out, =
we need to discuss that.

The comments Mohamed places on the abstract are:=20

> After reading this document, opening IPv6 fw pinholes is not covered. =
What are the security limitation of such feature? How this should be =
implemented to not open holes which may be exploited by malicious =
attackers.
>=20
> - FW filters should be updated upon the change of the assigned IPv6 =
prefix, the change of the local IPv6 assigned to an internal node.
>=20
> - Application-specific filters such as VoIP (SIP and RTP) are out of =
scope. The control of the FW can be achieved via appropriate means which =
are out of scope of this document.

There was indeed discussion of pinhole technologies such as UPnP and =
your proposal. My recollection was that the topic was deemed out of =
scope: the IETF doesn't have a consensus on the topic (we just barely =
agree that someone should define the term "firewall"), and if we were to =
recommend something we would want it to be an open standard that passed =
security muster. Frankly, I think letting IPsec through the firewall is =
a very adequate "pinhole" - there is an assumption of end-to-end AAA. =
Even there, though, were I writing the specification I would say that I =
wanted the host to announce classes of sessions that it was willing to =
be a receiver of and have the firewall open corresponding pinholes; that =
might include "you may send IPsec traffic to me". There is of course a =
security issue with that as well; a virus or trojan is an application =
running on a computer, and could open pinholes of its choosing.

On Apr 12, 2010, at 10:13 AM, james woodyatt wrote:

> chairs--
>=20
> I'm not sure I know what is the proper procedure for a technical =
editor to follow during the working group last call phase, so I plan to =
remain quiet on the subject of I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security until =
the end of the window unless I'm asked to speak up by one of the =
chairpersons.
>=20
>=20
> --
> james woodyatt 
> member of technical staff, communications engineering
>=20
>=20

http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 12 12:12:53 2010
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Subject: Re: procedures for working group last call
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On Apr 12, 2010, at 11:38, Fred Baker wrote:

> [...]I have to ask: do you run Microsoft Word on your computer? Are =
you able to read the comments?

Apple has provided me with Microsoft Office 2008 for Mac OS X.

> Use your editorial judgement on editorial comments; err in the =
direction of simplicity of language (active voice, short sentences, =
question every comma and conjunctive, etc). Spelling and grammatical =
changes are generally helpful to pick up.

I'll do that then.  This implies there will be a -11 revision targeted =
for shortly after the close of the WGLC window.

> What is really important is technical commentary: if a recommendation =
is disputed or an oversight pointed out, we need to discuss that.

I'll try to flag the points for technical commentary as early in the =
window as possible then.


--
james woodyatt 
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 12 12:16:30 2010
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On Apr 12, 2010, at 12:09 PM, james woodyatt wrote:
>> Use your editorial judgement on editorial comments; err in the =
direction of simplicity of language (active voice, short sentences, =
question every comma and conjunctive, etc). Spelling and grammatical =
changes are generally helpful to pick up.
>=20
> I'll do that then.  This implies there will be a -11 revision targeted =
for shortly after the close of the WGLC window.
>=20
>> What is really important is technical commentary: if a recommendation =
is disputed or an oversight pointed out, we need to discuss that.
>=20
> I'll try to flag the points for technical commentary as early in the =
window as possible then.

Then you're doing what most people do.



From uk@megatron.ietf.org  Mon Apr 12 20:02:29 2010
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 12 20:25:28 2010
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Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 15:17:30 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Organization: University of Auckland
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To: Fred Baker ,  Kurt Erik Lindqvist , IPv6 Operations 
Subject: [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt]
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Hi, v6ops and chairs,

We've revised this draft, as discussed in Anaheim, as a factual report
on the ISP survey, without adding recommendations. We believe that it's
valuable to publish in this form, and that it cannot be mistaken for
recommendations, since it doesn't make any.

Fred and Kurtis, how should we proceed?

   Brian and Sheng

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt
Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:45:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

	Title           : Emerging Service Provider Scenarios for IPv6 Deployment
	Author(s)       : B. Carpenter, S. Jiang
	Filename        : draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt
	Pages           : 18
	Date            : 2010-04-12

This document describes practices and plans that are emerging among
Internet Service Providers for the deployment of IPv6.  They are
based on practical experience so far, as well as current plans and
requirements, reported in a survey carried out in early 2010.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 12 23:16:04 2010
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Cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist , IPv6 Operations 
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If the working group agrees, I could simply send it to the AD as =
informational and having been done in the context of the working group. =
I would like at least one  content review.

On Apr 12, 2010, at 8:17 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:

> Hi, v6ops and chairs,
>=20
> We've revised this draft, as discussed in Anaheim, as a factual report
> on the ISP survey, without adding recommendations. We believe that =
it's
> valuable to publish in this form, and that it cannot be mistaken for
> recommendations, since it doesn't make any.
>=20
> Fred and Kurtis, how should we proceed?
>=20
>  Brian and Sheng
>=20
> -------- Original Message --------
> Subject: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt
> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:45:01 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>=20
> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>=20
> 	Title           : Emerging Service Provider Scenarios for IPv6 =
Deployment
> 	Author(s)       : B. Carpenter, S. Jiang
> 	Filename        : draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt
> 	Pages           : 18
> 	Date            : 2010-04-12
>=20
> This document describes practices and plans that are emerging among
> Internet Service Providers for the deployment of IPv6.  They are
> based on practical experience so far, as well as current plans and
> requirements, reported in a survey carried out in early 2010.
>=20
> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02=
.txt
>=20

http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF



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Subject: Re: WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt 
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Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 12:42:22 +0200
Cc: Fred Baker , IPv6 v6ops 
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Hi James,

After a review of what RFC 4890 says, the new section 3.2.1 on ICMPv6 =
needs in my understanding to be modified.

CURRENT 3.2.1 TEXT: "Recommendations for filtering ICMPv6 messages in =
firewall devices are described separately in [RFC4890] and apply =
generally to residential gateways as to any class of router.  No =
additional recommendations are made here, but it's important to note =
that Destination Unreachable and Packet Too Big errors corresponding to =
filtering states for all upper-layer transport protocols are important =
to the proper function of the Internet."

PROBLEM:=20
RFC 4890 recommends that NO Destination Unreachable and NO Packet Too =
Big error messages be dropped (sec 4.3.1).
If the intent is that incoming DU or PTB messages that don't match any =
filtering state should be dropped, this should then be expressed as an =
*additional* recommendation.=20
(If the intent is different, I have difficulty understanding it.)


PROPOSAL: "Recommendations for filtering ICMPv6 messages in firewall =
devices are described separately in [RFC4890] and apply to residential =
gateways, with the additional recommendation that incoming Destination =
Unreachable and  Packet Too Big error messages that don't match any =
filtering state should be dropped."

Accordingly, REC-12  would become:
" REC-12: IPv6 gateways SHOULD NOT forward ICMP Destination Unreachable =
and Packet Too Big messages containing IP headers that don't match =
generic upper-layer transport state 3-tuples."
(Note, besides, that since it deals with ICMP, this REC would better be =
placed in 3.2.1 than in 3.2.2.)

As the point raised is more than editorial, I look forward to your view =
on it.

Best regards,
RD


 [RD1]This sentence suggests that forwarding PTB messages corresponding =
to filtering states could be beyond what is imposed by RFC4890 , i.e.

=20

could be added=20

Le 11 avr. 2010 =E0 21:59, Fred Baker a =E9crit :

> As agreed at the last IETF meeting, I am opening a two week WGLC of =
draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt. Please read the document, =
comment to this list on matters of substance, and send nits =
(spelling/grammar, word choice, sentence structure comments) to the =
authors.
>=20
> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
>=20


--Apple-Mail-1-790366604
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=iso-8859-1

After a review of what RFC 4890 says, the new section 3.2.1 on ICMPv6 needs in my =
understanding to be modified.

CURRENT 3.2.1 TEXT: "Recommendations for
filtering ICMPv6 messages in firewall devices are described =
separately
in [RFC4890] and apply generally to residential gateways as to any
class of router.  No additional
recommendations are made here, but
it's important to note that Destination Unreachable and
Packet Too Big errors corresponding to filtering states for all
upper-layer transport protocols are important to the proper function of
the Internet."

PROBLEM: 
RFC 4890 recommends that =
NO Destination Unreachable and NO Packet Too Big error =
messages be dropped (sec 4.3.1).
If the intent =
is that incoming DU or PTB messages that don't match any filtering state =
should be dropped, this should then be expressed as an *additional* =
recommendation. 
(If the intent is different, I have =
difficulty understanding =
it.)


PROPOSAL: "Recommendations =
for filtering ICMPv6 messages in firewall devices are described =
separately in [RFC4890] and apply to residential gateways, with the =
additional recommendation that incoming Destination Unreachable and =
 Packet Too Big error messages that don't match any filtering state =
should be dropped."

Accordingly, =
REC-12  would become:
" REC-12: IPv6
gateways SHOULD NOT forward ICMP Destination Unreachable and Packet =
Too Big
messages containing IP headers that don't match generic upper-layer
transport state 3-tuples."
(Note, besides, that =
since it deals with ICMP, this REC would better be placed in 3.2.1 than =
in 3.2.2.)

As the point raised is more than =
editorial, I look forward to your view on =
it.

Best =
regards,
RD





























 [RD1]This
sentence suggests that forwarding PTB messages corresponding to =
filtering
states could be beyond what is imposed by RFC4890 , i.e. =
















 






could be =
added 

Le 11 avr. 2010 =E0 21:59, Fred Baker a =E9crit =
:

As agreed at the last IETF =
meeting, I am opening a two week WGLC of =
draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt. Please read =
the document, comment to this list on matters of substance, and =
send nits (spelling/grammar, word choice, sentence structure comments) =
to the authors.


 =


=

--Apple-Mail-1-790366604--


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From: Fred Baker 
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Subject: Fwd: [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt]
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 05:47:51 -0700
References: <2719_1271161162_4BC4614A_2719_12804_1_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F30EFFCDB190@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr>
Cc: IPv6 Operations 
To: mohamed.boucadair@orange-ftgroup.com, Brian E Carpenter 
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Thanks Mohamed.

Any other comments from the working group?

Begin forwarded message:

> From: 
> Date: April 13, 2010 5:19:20 AM PDT
> To: Fred Baker , Brian E Carpenter =

> Cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist 
> Subject: RE: [Fwd: I-D =
Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt]
>=20
>=20
> Dear all,
>=20
> Please find attached my review of this document.
>=20
> I fully agree to publish it.
>=20
> Cheers,
> Med
>=20
> -----Message d'origine-----
> De : owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] De la =
part de Fred Baker
> Envoy=E9 : mardi 13 avril 2010 08:12
> =C0 : Brian E Carpenter
> Cc : Kurt Erik Lindqvist; IPv6 Operations
> Objet : Re: [Fwd: I-D =
Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt]
>=20
> If the working group agrees, I could simply send it to the AD as =
informational and having been done in the context of the working group. =
I would like at least one  content review.
>=20
> On Apr 12, 2010, at 8:17 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>=20
>> Hi, v6ops and chairs,
>>=20
>> We've revised this draft, as discussed in Anaheim, as a factual =
report
>> on the ISP survey, without adding recommendations. We believe that =
it's
>> valuable to publish in this form, and that it cannot be mistaken for
>> recommendations, since it doesn't make any.
>>=20
>> Fred and Kurtis, how should we proceed?
>>=20
>> Brian and Sheng
>>=20
>> -------- Original Message --------
>> Subject: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt
>> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:45:01 -0700 (PDT)
>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>=20
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts =
directories.
>>=20
>> 	Title           : Emerging Service Provider Scenarios for IPv6 =
Deployment
>> 	Author(s)       : B. Carpenter, S. Jiang
>> 	Filename        : draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt
>> 	Pages           : 18
>> 	Date            : 2010-04-12
>>=20
>> This document describes practices and plans that are emerging among
>> Internet Service Providers for the deployment of IPv6.  They are
>> based on practical experience so far, as well as current plans and
>> requirements, reported in a survey carried out in early 2010.
>>=20
>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02=
.txt
>>=20
>=20
> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
>=20
>=20
>=20
> *********************************
> This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and =
intended solely for the addressees.=20
> Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited.
> Messages are susceptible to alteration.=20
> France Telecom Group shall not be liable for the message if altered, =
changed or falsified.
> If you are not the intended addressee of this message, please cancel =
it immediately and inform the sender.
> ********************************
>=20

--Apple-Mail-136-797895114
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From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org  Tue Apr 13 15:02:46 2010
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 14 13:44:00 2010
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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 06:07:22 +0930
From: Mark Smith 
To: Fred Baker 
Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange-ftgroup.com, Brian E Carpenter , IPv6 Operations 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt]
Message-ID: <20100415060722.6c987475@opy.nosense.org>
In-Reply-To: <3646F6D9-510F-4502-8EEE-2C2A89B466A0@cisco.com>
References: <2719_1271161162_4BC4614A_2719_12804_1_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F30EFFCDB190@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr> <3646F6D9-510F-4502-8EEE-2C2A89B466A0@cisco.com>
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On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 05:47:51 -0700
Fred Baker  wrote:

> Thanks Mohamed.
>=20
> Any other comments from the working group?
>=20

I had a read of it yesterday, and found it interesting as a
"current state of play".

One thing I was a bit confused about was the discussion regarding
methods of assigning customers prefixes.

It seemed to be listing 5 methods, or a least the people who filled in
the survey thought there were 5 methods:

1) manual i.e. static route towards the customer
2) RA PIO + SLAAC
3) DHCPv6-PD
4) PPPoE (/PPP)
5) RADIUS

The first 3 are valid as of providing downstream customers with
address space.

PPPoE/PPP isn't, because IPv6 PPP only negotiates 64 bit IIDs, one of
the first 3 methods above have to be used after that. For people who
answered with that, I wonder if they understand that IPv6 PPP doesn't
work like it does in IPv4.

RADIUS is one of the ways to supply the prefix information to the first
3 methods. So unless people combined RADIUS with one of the first 3
methods, I'd also wonder if they fully understand how you assign IPv6
address space to downstream customers.

Is there enough data in the survey responses to clear the above up?

It's obviously too late for this survey, however if there is one in the
future, I think it'd be interesting to ask a bit more about how the
person filling in the survey learnt about IPv6, what they view it as
(i.e. just IPv4 with bigger addresses or IPv4 with improvements in a
few areas or a new protocol that has similarities with IPv4 as well as
other protocols), does their organisation have a formal training
program etc. Those sorts of questions can help determine why e.g. in
the case above, people seem to think IPv6 PPPoE/PPP works as it does in
IPv4.

(a minor nit, PPPoE has been abbreviated to PPoE in a few places)

Regards,
Mark.





> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> > From: 
> > Date: April 13, 2010 5:19:20 AM PDT
> > To: Fred Baker , Brian E Carpenter 
> > Cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist 
> > Subject: RE: [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.tx=
t]
> >=20
> >=20
> > Dear all,
> >=20
> > Please find attached my review of this document.
> >=20
> > I fully agree to publish it.
> >=20
> > Cheers,
> > Med
> >=20
> > -----Message d'origine-----
> > De : owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] De la p=
art de Fred Baker
> > Envoy=E9 : mardi 13 avril 2010 08:12
> > =C0 : Brian E Carpenter
> > Cc : Kurt Erik Lindqvist; IPv6 Operations
> > Objet : Re: [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt]
> >=20
> > If the working group agrees, I could simply send it to the AD as inform=
ational and having been done in the context of the working group. I would l=
ike at least one  content review.
> >=20
> > On Apr 12, 2010, at 8:17 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> >=20
> >> Hi, v6ops and chairs,
> >>=20
> >> We've revised this draft, as discussed in Anaheim, as a factual report
> >> on the ISP survey, without adding recommendations. We believe that it's
> >> valuable to publish in this form, and that it cannot be mistaken for
> >> recommendations, since it doesn't make any.
> >>=20
> >> Fred and Kurtis, how should we proceed?
> >>=20
> >> Brian and Sheng
> >>=20
> >> -------- Original Message --------
> >> Subject: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt
> >> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:45:01 -0700 (PDT)
> >> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
> >> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> >> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
> >>=20
> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dir=
ectories.
> >>=20
> >> 	Title           : Emerging Service Provider Scenarios for IPv6 Deploy=
ment
> >> 	Author(s)       : B. Carpenter, S. Jiang
> >> 	Filename        : draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt
> >> 	Pages           : 18
> >> 	Date            : 2010-04-12
> >>=20
> >> This document describes practices and plans that are emerging among
> >> Internet Service Providers for the deployment of IPv6.  They are
> >> based on practical experience so far, as well as current plans and
> >> requirements, reported in a survey carried out in early 2010.
> >>=20
> >> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
> >> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenario=
s-02.txt
> >>=20
> >=20
> > http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > *********************************
> > This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and i=
ntended solely for the addressees.=20
> > Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited.
> > Messages are susceptible to alteration.=20
> > France Telecom Group shall not be liable for the message if altered, ch=
anged or falsified.
> > If you are not the intended addressee of this message, please cancel it=
 immediately and inform the sender.
> > ********************************
> >=20


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 14 15:35:02 2010
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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 10:29:44 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Organization: University of Auckland
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Mark Smith 
CC: Fred Baker ,  mohamed.boucadair@orange-ftgroup.com,  IPv6 Operations 
Subject: Re: [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt]
References: <2719_1271161162_4BC4614A_2719_12804_1_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F30EFFCDB190@PUEXCB1B.nanterre.francetelecom.fr>	<3646F6D9-510F-4502-8EEE-2C2A89B466A0@cisco.com> <20100415060722.6c987475@opy.nosense.org>
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Mark,

On 2010-04-15 08:37, Mark Smith wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 05:47:51 -0700
> Fred Baker  wrote:
>=20
>> Thanks Mohamed.

Yes, we will incorporate the substantive comments in the
next version. Some of the more editorial comments may be left
for the judgment of the RFC Editor.

>>
>> Any other comments from the working group?
>>
>=20
> I had a read of it yesterday, and found it interesting as a
> "current state of play".

Thanks for that
>=20
> One thing I was a bit confused about was the discussion regarding
> methods of assigning customers prefixes.
>=20
> It seemed to be listing 5 methods, or a least the people who filled in
> the survey thought there were 5 methods:
>=20
> 1) manual i.e. static route towards the customer
> 2) RA PIO + SLAAC
> 3) DHCPv6-PD
> 4) PPPoE (/PPP)
> 5) RADIUS
>=20
> The first 3 are valid as of providing downstream customers with
> address space.
>=20
> PPPoE/PPP isn't, because IPv6 PPP only negotiates 64 bit IIDs, one of
> the first 3 methods above have to be used after that. For people who
> answered with that, I wonder if they understand that IPv6 PPP doesn't
> work like it does in IPv4.

We really can't tell that from the answers, especially for people who
were replying about plans rather than experience.
>=20
> RADIUS is one of the ways to supply the prefix information to the first=

> 3 methods. So unless people combined RADIUS with one of the first 3
> methods, I'd also wonder if they fully understand how you assign IPv6
> address space to downstream customers.

Ditto.

>=20
> Is there enough data in the survey responses to clear the above up?

In a word, no, unfortunately. This is clearly an area that needs
to be well documented in operational guidance. Whether that level of
detail belongs in a draft like draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines
is something we should discuss.
>=20
> It's obviously too late for this survey, however if there is one in the=

> future, I think it'd be interesting to ask a bit more about how the
> person filling in the survey learnt about IPv6, what they view it as
> (i.e. just IPv4 with bigger addresses or IPv4 with improvements in a
> few areas or a new protocol that has similarities with IPv4 as well as
> other protocols), does their organisation have a formal training
> program etc. Those sorts of questions can help determine why e.g. in
> the case above, people seem to think IPv6 PPPoE/PPP works as it does in=

> IPv4.

Agreed.
>=20
> (a minor nit, PPPoE has been abbreviated to PPoE in a few places)

OK, will fix.

Thanks
   Brian + Sheng
>=20
> Regards,
> Mark.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>> Begin forwarded message:
>>
>>> From: 
>>> Date: April 13, 2010 5:19:20 AM PDT
>>> To: Fred Baker , Brian E Carpenter 
>>> Cc: Kurt Erik Lindqvist 
>>> Subject: RE: [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.=
txt]
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> Please find attached my review of this document.
>>>
>>> I fully agree to publish it.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Med
>>>
>>> -----Message d'origine-----
>>> De : owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] De la=
 part de Fred Baker
>>> Envoy=C3=A9 : mardi 13 avril 2010 08:12
>>> =C3=80 : Brian E Carpenter
>>> Cc : Kurt Erik Lindqvist; IPv6 Operations
>>> Objet : Re: [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.t=
xt]
>>>
>>> If the working group agrees, I could simply send it to the AD as info=
rmational and having been done in the context of the working group. I wou=
ld like at least one  content review.
>>>
>>> On Apr 12, 2010, at 8:17 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi, v6ops and chairs,
>>>>
>>>> We've revised this draft, as discussed in Anaheim, as a factual repo=
rt
>>>> on the ISP survey, without adding recommendations. We believe that i=
t's
>>>> valuable to publish in this form, and that it cannot be mistaken for=

>>>> recommendations, since it doesn't make any.
>>>>
>>>> Fred and Kurtis, how should we proceed?
>>>>
>>>> Brian and Sheng
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> Subject: I-D Action:draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt
>>>> Date: Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:45:01 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
>>>> Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
>>>> To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
>>>>
>>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts d=
irectories.
>>>>
>>>> 	Title           : Emerging Service Provider Scenarios for IPv6 Depl=
oyment
>>>> 	Author(s)       : B. Carpenter, S. Jiang
>>>> 	Filename        : draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios-02.txt
>>>> 	Pages           : 18
>>>> 	Date            : 2010-04-12
>>>>
>>>> This document describes practices and plans that are emerging among
>>>> Internet Service Providers for the deployment of IPv6.  They are
>>>> based on practical experience so far, as well as current plans and
>>>> requirements, reported in a survey carried out in early 2010.
>>>>
>>>> A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenar=
ios-02.txt
>>>>
>>> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *********************************
>>> This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and=
 intended solely for the addressees.=20
>>> Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited.
>>> Messages are susceptible to alteration.=20
>>> France Telecom Group shall not be liable for the message if altered, =
changed or falsified.
>>> If you are not the intended addressee of this message, please cancel =
it immediately and inform the sender.
>>> ********************************
>>>
>=20



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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 07:07:58 2010
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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:02:49 +0200
Subject: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: 
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Thread-Topic: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
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Hi,

Given that RS triggered access appears to be gaining ground (based on the
latest  draft-krishnan-rs-mark) it would appear that the CPE router draft
specify a bit more tightly the form of RS messages a CPE sends when
connecting to a network.
RFC4861 section 6.3.7 states:
" A host sends Router Solicitations to the all-routers multicast
   address.  The IP source address is set to either one of the
   interface's unicast addresses or the unspecified address."

Now, since the source address is very likely to be one of the identifier
keys for a CPE used for authorization, I would like to propose that an RS
sending rule be added to the CPE spec which would ensure that the IP source
address is NEVER the unspecified address, eg:

The IPv6 CE router MUST use one of its WAN interface unicast addresses when
sending RS messages.

Comments?

-Woj.



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 08:13:21 2010
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To: Wojciech Dec 
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Philip Homburg 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:02:49 +0200 ."  
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:04:32 +0200
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In your letter dated Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:02:49 +0200 you wrote:
>Given that RS triggered access appears to be gaining ground (based on the
>latest  draft-krishnan-rs-mark) it would appear that the CPE router draft
>specify a bit more tightly the form of RS messages a CPE sends when
>connecting to a network.
>RFC4861 section 6.3.7 states:
>" A host sends Router Solicitations to the all-routers multicast
>   address.  The IP source address is set to either one of the
>   interface's unicast addresses or the unspecified address."
>
>Now, since the source address is very likely to be one of the identifier
>keys for a CPE used for authorization, I would like to propose that an RS
>sending rule be added to the CPE spec which would ensure that the IP source
>address is NEVER the unspecified address, eg:
>
>The IPv6 CE router MUST use one of its WAN interface unicast addresses when
>sending RS messages.

Does that mean that if you use your neighbor's mac address, you will get 
your neighbors prefix?

draft-krishnan-6man-rs-mark-03 talks about a LIO option. Which should be
enough to identify the customer.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 08:28:54 2010
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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:26:48 +0200
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: Philip Homburg 
CC: 
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Thread-Topic: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
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On 15/04/2010 17:04, "Philip Homburg"  wrote:

> In your letter dated Thu, 15 Apr 2010 16:02:49 +0200 you wrote:
>> Given that RS triggered access appears to be gaining ground (based on the
>> latest  draft-krishnan-rs-mark) it would appear that the CPE router draft
>> specify a bit more tightly the form of RS messages a CPE sends when
>> connecting to a network.
>> RFC4861 section 6.3.7 states:
>> " A host sends Router Solicitations to the all-routers multicast
>>   address.  The IP source address is set to either one of the
>>   interface's unicast addresses or the unspecified address."
>> 
>> Now, since the source address is very likely to be one of the identifier
>> keys for a CPE used for authorization, I would like to propose that an RS
>> sending rule be added to the CPE spec which would ensure that the IP source
>> address is NEVER the unspecified address, eg:
>> 
>> The IPv6 CE router MUST use one of its WAN interface unicast addresses when
>> sending RS messages.
> 
> Does that mean that if you use your neighbor's mac address, you will get
> your neighbors prefix?

Well, I meant "MUST use of its WAN interface *IPv6* unicast addresses...

> 
> draft-krishnan-6man-rs-mark-03 talks about a LIO option. Which should be
> enough to identify the customer.

The LIO is one key, however the LL and unicast IP addresses of a CE need to
be correlated to that key, hence they are essential pieces of info.

-Woj.
> 
> 



From vaa27223@ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 08:49:01 2010
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 09:42:26 2010
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Message-Id: 
To: Wojciech Dec 
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Philip Homburg 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:26:48 +0200 ."  
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 18:38:39 +0200
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In your letter dated Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:26:48 +0200 you wrote:
>> Does that mean that if you use your neighbor's mac address, you will get
>> your neighbors prefix?
>
>Well, I meant "MUST use of its WAN interface *IPv6* unicast addresses...

Yes, but on an ethernet, a link local address is often derived from the
mac address.

>> draft-krishnan-6man-rs-mark-03 talks about a LIO option. Which should be
>> enough to identify the customer.
>
>The LIO is one key, however the LL and unicast IP addresses of a CE need to
>be correlated to that key, hence they are essential pieces of info.

Why would the edge router even look at the source address if there is a 
LIO? 

The source address is typically under control of the customer, and cannot be
trusted.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 09:48:11 2010
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Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
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On Apr 15, 2010, at 9:38 AM, Philip Homburg wrote:

> In your letter dated Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:26:48 +0200 you wrote:
>>> Does that mean that if you use your neighbor's mac address, you will =
get
>>> your neighbors prefix?
>>=20
>> Well, I meant "MUST use of its WAN interface *IPv6* unicast =
addresses...
>=20
> Yes, but on an ethernet, a link local address is often derived from =
the
> mac address.

unless you happen to be using the operating system that sits on 90%+ of =
desktops: http://ipv6int.net/systems/windows_vista-ipv6.html#privacy is =
an example of several sites I have found commenting on Windows XP, Vita, =
and Windows 7. It uses privacy addresses, which are random numbers.

>>> draft-krishnan-6man-rs-mark-03 talks about a LIO option. Which =
should be
>>> enough to identify the customer.
>>=20
>> The LIO is one key, however the LL and unicast IP addresses of a CE =
need to
>> be correlated to that key, hence they are essential pieces of info.
>=20
> Why would the edge router even look at the source address if there is =
a=20
> LIO?=20
>=20
> The source address is typically under control of the customer, and =
cannot be
> trusted.
>=20
>=20
>=20

http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF



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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 11:07:26 2010
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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 20:02:52 +0200
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: Philip Homburg 
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On 15/04/2010 18:38, "Philip Homburg"  wrote:

>> The LIO is one key, however the LL and unicast IP addresses of a CE need to
>> be correlated to that key, hence they are essential pieces of info.
> 
> Why would the edge router even look at the source address if there is a
> LIO? 

It's necessary to know the source address for an LIO in order to at least
associate that IP to the LIO identity.

-Woj.



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 11:33:18 2010
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Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Philip Homburg 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 15 Apr 2010 20:02:52 +0200 ."  
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In your letter dated Thu, 15 Apr 2010 20:02:52 +0200 you wrote:
>
>
>
>On 15/04/2010 18:38, "Philip Homburg"  wrote:
>
>>> The LIO is one key, however the LL and unicast IP addresses of a CE need to
>>> be correlated to that key, hence they are essential pieces of info.
>> 
>> Why would the edge router even look at the source address if there is a
>> LIO? 
>
>It's necessary to know the source address for an LIO in order to at least
>associate that IP to the LIO identity.

Which node needs the link local address of the CPE? The edge router or
the access node? (using draft-krishnan-6man-rs-mark-03 terminology)


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 12:21:20 2010
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Subject: RE: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 14:05:19 -0500
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References: 
From: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" 
To: "Wojciech Dec (wdec)" , 
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RFC 4861 says (in section 4.1):

"Source Address
 An IP address assigned to the sending interface, or
 the unspecified address if no address is assigned
 to the sending interface."

I guess you'll always have a link-local address (if not a global unicast
address) on the WAN interface - so other than restricting this more in
the CPE router draft than what RFC 4861 allows, I see no show-stopper
issue with not allowing the unspecified address.  However, I would like
to see more discussion as to why you think this is necessary (ie. are
you denying RA's to "unauthorized" CPE routers?)

- Wes

Wes Beebee
Software Engineer
Product Development
wbeebee@cisco.com

United States
Cisco.com - http://www.cisco.com
For corporate legal information go to:
http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Wojciech Dec (wdec)
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 10:03 AM
To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04

Hi,

Given that RS triggered access appears to be gaining ground (based on
the latest  draft-krishnan-rs-mark) it would appear that the CPE router
draft specify a bit more tightly the form of RS messages a CPE sends
when connecting to a network.
RFC4861 section 6.3.7 states:
" A host sends Router Solicitations to the all-routers multicast
   address.  The IP source address is set to either one of the
   interface's unicast addresses or the unspecified address."

Now, since the source address is very likely to be one of the identifier
keys for a CPE used for authorization, I would like to propose that an
RS sending rule be added to the CPE spec which would ensure that the IP
source address is NEVER the unspecified address, eg:

The IPv6 CE router MUST use one of its WAN interface unicast addresses
when sending RS messages.

Comments?

-Woj.




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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 14:36:24 2010
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Emerging Service Provider Scenarios for IPv6 Deployment
	Author(s)       : B. Carpenter, S. Jiang
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-isp-scenarios-00.txt
	Pages           : 20
	Date            : 2010-04-15

This document describes practices and plans that are emerging among
Internet Service Providers for the deployment of IPv6 services.  They
are based on practical experience so far, as well as current plans
and requirements, reported in a survey of a number of ISPs carried
out in early 2010.  The document identifies a number of technology
gaps, but does not make recommendations.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-isp-scenarios-00.txt

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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 09:48:23 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Organization: University of Auckland
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Subject: [Fwd: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-isp-scenarios-00.txt]
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This replaces draft-carpenter-v6ops-isp-scenarios. We've added
one more ISP that replied in the last few days, incorporated
various comments received, and made editorial improvements.

   Brian + Sheng

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-isp-scenarios-00.txt
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 14:30:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Internet-Drafts@ietf.org
Reply-To: internet-drafts@ietf.org
To: i-d-announce@ietf.org
CC: v6ops@ops.ietf.org

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Emerging Service Provider Scenarios for IPv6 Deployment
	Author(s)       : B. Carpenter, S. Jiang
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-isp-scenarios-00.txt
	Pages           : 20
	Date            : 2010-04-15

This document describes practices and plans that are emerging among
Internet Service Providers for the deployment of IPv6 services.  They
are based on practical experience so far, as well as current plans
and requirements, reported in a survey of a number of ISPs carried
out in early 2010.  The document identifies a number of technology
gaps, but does not make recommendations.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-isp-scenarios-00.txt

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

Below is the data which will enable a MIME compliant mail reader
implementation to automatically retrieve the ASCII version of the
Internet-Draft.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 15:05:04 2010
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Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 15:04:40 -0700
Subject: FW: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Rajeev Koodli 
To: 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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Hello folks,

I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience for this
ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a useful
reference for service providers and network designers.
This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol work.

I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
addressed. 

It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.

So, Chairs: how do we proceed?

Thanks,

-Rajeev

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02



------ Forwarded Message
From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rajeev Koodli 
Subject: New Version Notification for
draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02


A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has been
successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
Revision:  02
Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
Creation_date:  2010-04-14
WG ID:   Independent Submission
Number_of_pages: 15

Abstract:
Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
providers and network designers.
                   


The IETF Secretariat.



------ End of Forwarded Message



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 17:13:27 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Fred Baker 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Thu, 15 Apr 2010 17:08:52 -0700
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To: IPv6 Operations 
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I would like feedback from the working group. Rajeev would like to make =
this a working group document. Is there support?

On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:

>=20
> Hello folks,
>=20
> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience =
for this
> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a =
useful
> reference for service providers and network designers.
> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol =
work.
>=20
> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
> addressed.=20
>=20
> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>=20
> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> -Rajeev
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
> To: Rajeev Koodli 
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has =
been
> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF =
repository.
>=20
> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
> Revision:  02
> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
> WG ID:   Independent Submission
> Number_of_pages: 15
>=20
> Abstract:
> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
> providers and network designers.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>=20
>=20

http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 18:16:32 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Cameron Byrne 
To: Fred Baker 
Cc: IPv6 Operations 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
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On Thu, Apr 15, 2010 at 5:08 PM, Fred Baker  wrote:
> I would like feedback from the working group. Rajeev would like to make t=
his a working group document. Is there support?
>

I support.  Rajeev is bringing a unique and focused discussion.  My
own interest  is with his discussion of the the public and private
IPv4 address exhaustion which gives rise to the IPv6-only scenario.
This is very relevant to large mobile operators that operate 2G, 3G,
and now 4G networks -- all of which are growing.

Cameron


> On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:
>
>>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience for =
this
>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a useful
>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol w=
ork.
>>
>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
>> addressed.
>>
>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>
>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Rajeev
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Forwarded Message
>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>
>>
>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has be=
en
>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF repositor=
y.
>>
>> Filename: =A0draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>> Revision: =A002
>> Title: =A0 Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>> Creation_date: =A02010-04-14
>> WG ID: =A0 Independent Submission
>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>
>> Abstract:
>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses. =A0IPv6 is widely seen
>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks. =A0This document
>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>> networks. =A0Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
>> providers and network designers.
>>
>>
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>
>>
>
> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
>
>
>


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 19:08:17 2010
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Message-ID: <4BC7C5C9.7000505@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:04:57 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Organization: University of Auckland
User-Agent: Thunderbird 2.0.0.6 (Windows/20070728)
MIME-Version: 1.0
To: Fred Baker 
CC: IPv6 Operations 
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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I found it a very informative document and I think it
should move forward.

Regards
   Brian

On 2010-04-16 12:08, Fred Baker wrote:
> I would like feedback from the working group. Rajeev would like to make this a working group document. Is there support?
> 
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:
> 
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience for this
>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a useful
>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol work.
>>
>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
>> addressed. 
>>
>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>
>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Rajeev
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Forwarded Message
>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>
>>
>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has been
>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF repository.
>>
>> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>> Revision:  02
>> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
>> WG ID:   Independent Submission
>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>
>> Abstract:
>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
>> providers and network designers.
>>
>>
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>
>>
> 
> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
> 
> 
> 


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 15 23:22:06 2010
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From: 
To: Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations 
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 08:13:40 +0200
Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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Dear Fred, all,

I support this ID to become informative WG document.

Cheers,
Med=20

-----Message d'origine-----
De : owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] De la part =
de Fred Baker
Envoy=E9 : vendredi 16 avril 2010 02:09
=C0 : IPv6 Operations
Objet : Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networ=
ks-02

I would like feedback from the working group. Rajeev would like to make thi=
s a working group document. Is there support?

On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:

>=20
> Hello folks,
>=20
> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience for t=
his
> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a useful
> reference for service providers and network designers.
> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol wo=
rk.
>=20
> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
> addressed.=20
>=20
> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>=20
> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> -Rajeev
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
> To: Rajeev Koodli 
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has been
> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF repository.
>=20
> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
> Revision:  02
> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
> WG ID:   Independent Submission
> Number_of_pages: 15
>=20
> Abstract:
> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
> providers and network designers.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>=20
>=20

http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF



*********************************
This message and any attachments (the "message") are confidential and inten=
ded solely for the addressees.=20
Any unauthorised use or dissemination is prohibited.
Messages are susceptible to alteration.=20
France Telecom Group shall not be liable for the message if altered, change=
d or falsified.
If you are not the intended addressee of this message, please cancel it imm=
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 01:30:11 2010
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References: <20100413233059.8DA253A6923@core3.amsl.com> 
To: Rajeev Koodli 
Cc: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org, v6ops@ops.ietf.org
MIME-Version: 1.0
Subject: Re: FW: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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This is a multipart message in MIME format.
--=_alternative 002E47C3C2257707_=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"

I support it as well.
It is a very useful reference

Roman



From:   Rajeev Koodli 
To:     
Date:   16-04-10 01:31
Subject:        FW: New Version Notification for 
draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
Sent by:        owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org



Hello folks,

I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience for 
this
ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a useful
reference for service providers and network designers.
This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol 
work.

I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
addressed.

It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.

So, Chairs: how do we proceed?

Thanks,

-Rajeev

http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02



------ Forwarded Message
From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
To: Rajeev Koodli 
Subject: New Version Notification for
draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02


A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has been
successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF repository.

Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
Revision:  02
Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
Creation_date:  2010-04-14
WG ID:   Independent Submission
Number_of_pages: 15

Abstract:
Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
providers and network designers.



The IETF Secretariat.



------ End of Forwarded Message




--=_alternative 002E47C3C2257707_=
Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"

I support it as well.

It is a very useful reference



Roman







From:      
 Rajeev Koodli <rkoodli@cisco.com>

To:      
 <v6ops@ops.ietf.org>

Date:      
 16-04-10 01:31

Subject:    
   FW: New Version
Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02

Sent by:    
   owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org









Hello folks,



I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the
intended audience for this

ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a useful

reference for service providers and network designers.

This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol
work.



I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!)
which I have

addressed.



It seemed there was good interest that this ID is
useful.



So, Chairs: how do we proceed?



Thanks,



-Rajeev



http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02







------ Forwarded Message

From: IETF I-D Submission Tool <idsubmission@ietf.org>

Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)

To: Rajeev Koodli <rkoodli@cisco.com>

Subject: New Version Notification for

draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02





A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt
has been

successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF repository.



Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks

Revision:  02

Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment

Creation_date:  2010-04-14

WG ID:   Independent Submission

Number_of_pages: 15



Abstract:

Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is

accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen

as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,

and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document

discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile

networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service

providers and network designers.







The IETF Secretariat.







------ End of Forwarded Message








--=_alternative 002E47C3C2257707_=--


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 02:31:21 2010
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From: 
To: , 
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:25:58 +0200
Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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Hi Rajeev, all,

I'm worried about the on-demand DHCP based address allocation descriptions =
herein.=20

Majority of 3GPP devices do not implement DHCP at all today for 3GPP access=
, because it is optional and gives very little when compared to mandatory P=
PP-like address allocation during bearer establishment procedures.=20

Introduction of DHCP for significant host population (to get statistical sa=
vings) just for the deferred IPv4 address allocation feature does not sound=
 right thing to do for me.

We should be adding IPv6 features to hosts, not IPv4 features.

Best regards,

Teemu

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of ext Rajeev Koodli
> Sent: 16. huhtikuuta 2010 01:05
> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: FW: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-
> networks-02
>=20
>=20
> Hello folks,
>=20
> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience for
> this
> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a
> useful
> reference for service providers and network designers.
> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol
> work.
>=20
> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
> addressed.
>=20
> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>=20
> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> -Rajeev
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
> To: Rajeev Koodli 
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has
> been
> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF
> repository.
>=20
> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
> Revision:  02
> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
> WG ID:   Independent Submission
> Number_of_pages: 15
>=20
> Abstract:
> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
> providers and network designers.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>=20



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 02:52:09 2010
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Subject: RE: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:49:18 +0200
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References: Your message of "Thu, 15 Apr 2010 20:02:52 +0200 ."               
From: "Wojciech Dec (wdec)" 
To: "Philip Homburg" 
Cc: 
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-----Original Message-----
From: pch-b6B5344D9@u-1.phicoh.com [mailto:pch-b6B5344D9@u-1.phicoh.com]
On Behalf Of Philip Homburg
Sent: 15 April 2010 20:31
To: Wojciech Dec (wdec)
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04=20

In your letter dated Thu, 15 Apr 2010 20:02:52 +0200 you wrote:
>
>
>
>On 15/04/2010 18:38, "Philip Homburg"  wrote:
>
>>> The LIO is one key, however the LL and unicast IP addresses of a CE
need to
>>> be correlated to that key, hence they are essential pieces of info.
>>=20
>> Why would the edge router even look at the source address if there is
a
>> LIO?=20
>
>It's necessary to know the source address for an LIO in order to at
least
>associate that IP to the LIO identity.

Which node needs the link local address of the CPE? The edge router or
the access node? (using draft-krishnan-6man-rs-mark-03 terminology)

Woj> Likely both: The edge router is expected to have an address binding
table per CPE and so may the access-node.

-Woj.


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 02:52:21 2010
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Subject: RE: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:49:18 +0200
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References:  
From: "Wojciech Dec (wdec)" 
To: "Wes Beebee (wbeebee)" , 
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-----Original Message-----
From: Wes Beebee (wbeebee)=20
Sent: 15 April 2010 21:05
To: Wojciech Dec (wdec); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04

RFC 4861 says (in section 4.1):

"Source Address
 An IP address assigned to the sending interface, or
 the unspecified address if no address is assigned
 to the sending interface."

I guess you'll always have a link-local address (if not a global unicast
address) on the WAN interface - so other than restricting this more in
the CPE router draft than what RFC 4861 allows, I see no show-stopper
issue with not allowing the unspecified address.  However, I would like
to see more discussion as to why you think this is necessary (ie. are
you denying RA's to "unauthorized" CPE routers?)

Woj> If one designs a system whereby RAs are used to trigger an
authorization event, it's practically a given that after authorization a
given address (used for sourcing the RSes) is to be bound to that
authorized CPE (it's MAC address). Security proposals are in place (BBF
and SAVI) to have the edge router drop packets which do not have such a
binding. As such it is pretty much critical to have the RSes use a
specific source address.

-Woj.

- Wes

Wes Beebee
Software Engineer
Product Development
wbeebee@cisco.com

United States
Cisco.com - http://www.cisco.com
For corporate legal information go to:
http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html


-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Wojciech Dec (wdec)
Sent: Thursday, April 15, 2010 10:03 AM
To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04

Hi,

Given that RS triggered access appears to be gaining ground (based on
the latest  draft-krishnan-rs-mark) it would appear that the CPE router
draft specify a bit more tightly the form of RS messages a CPE sends
when connecting to a network.
RFC4861 section 6.3.7 states:
" A host sends Router Solicitations to the all-routers multicast
   address.  The IP source address is set to either one of the
   interface's unicast addresses or the unspecified address."

Now, since the source address is very likely to be one of the identifier
keys for a CPE used for authorization, I would like to propose that an
RS sending rule be added to the CPE spec which would ensure that the IP
source address is NEVER the unspecified address, eg:

The IPv6 CE router MUST use one of its WAN interface unicast addresses
when sending RS messages.

Comments?

-Woj.




From v6ops-archive@lists.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 03:18:38 2010
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 06:30:06 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Cameron Byrne 
To: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com
Cc: rkoodli@cisco.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org
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On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:25 AM,   wrote:
> Hi Rajeev, all,
>
> I'm worried about the on-demand DHCP based address allocation description=
s herein.
>
> Majority of 3GPP devices do not implement DHCP at all today for 3GPP acce=
ss, because it is optional and gives very little when compared to mandatory=
 PPP-like address allocation during bearer establishment procedures.
>
> Introduction of DHCP for significant host population (to get statistical =
savings) just for the deferred IPv4 address allocation feature does not sou=
nd right thing to do for me.
>
> We should be adding IPv6 features to hosts, not IPv4 features.
>

Teemu, many handsets have DHCP for  the WiFi.  I agree with you in
principle somewhat (many transition steps add IPv4 functions), but i
believe the reality makes your point moot in many relevant cases.  I
strongly feel the transient on-demand IPv4 connection that  Rajeev has
suggested is very useful in IPv4 constrained environments that require
always-on connectivity (IMS ...).  I believe the on-demand IPv4
address can help address the IPv4 literal issue that is described in
draft-wing-behave-http-ip-address-literals, similar to a
dial-on-demand function... the handset always has a path to IPv4, but
the PDP is only setup when a packet needs to be transmitted.

Prior to release 7, i believe this is easy to control (give back ipv4
quickly) since we can configure the handset to terminate idle IPv4 PDP
quickly while the IPv6 is always up.  Once to release 8 and we have
dual-stack bearers, i am not sure the best way to address the
on-demand use of a transient IPv4 address.

Would you suggest the EPS bearer be re-established / re-negotiated to
deliver the IPv4 and IPv6 addresses over PCO- IE?  Is it possible to
send / request PCO-IE without dropping the original EPS bearer?

Cameron

ps.  This type of discussion is why the WG should accept this draft



> Best regards,
>
> Teemu
>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
>> Behalf Of ext Rajeev Koodli
>> Sent: 16. huhtikuuta 2010 01:05
>> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>> Subject: FW: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-
>> networks-02
>>
>>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience for
>> this
>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a
>> useful
>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol
>> work.
>>
>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
>> addressed.
>>
>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>
>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Rajeev
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Forwarded Message
>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>
>>
>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has
>> been
>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF
>> repository.
>>
>> Filename: =A0draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>> Revision: =A002
>> Title: =A0 Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>> Creation_date: =A02010-04-14
>> WG ID: =A0 Independent Submission
>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>
>> Abstract:
>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses. =A0IPv6 is widely seen
>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks. =A0This document
>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>> networks. =A0Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
>> providers and network designers.
>>
>>
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>
>
>
>


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 07:00:58 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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Hi Fred,

The informational part of the draft very clear and IMHO extremely =
valuable.
Like Mohamed, I therefore support, like Mohamed in particular, that it =
can become an "informational" WG document.=20

As far as the proposal that "an LTE deployment may be IPv6-only" is =
concerned (sec. 3.3), it is more than informational (which BTW is =
consistent with the Standards Track intended status of the current =
draft).
It could therefore IMHO be part of another draft, but should not be =
included in the informational WG document.

(About this particular proposal, I rather think that LTE mobile access =
networks should be all made dual stack, for some undetermined time, =
while those of previous generation should continue to evolve so as to =
become all dual stack.)

Regards,
RD
=20

Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 02:08, Fred Baker a =E9crit :

> I would like feedback from the working group. Rajeev would like to =
make this a working group document. Is there support?
>=20
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> Hello folks,
>>=20
>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience =
for this
>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a =
useful
>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new =
protocol work.
>>=20
>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I =
have
>> addressed.=20
>>=20
>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>=20
>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> -Rajeev
>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------ Forwarded Message
>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>=20
>>=20
>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has =
been
>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF =
repository.
>>=20
>> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>> Revision:  02
>> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
>> WG ID:   Independent Submission
>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>=20
>> Abstract:
>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
>> providers and network designers.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
>=20
>=20



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 07:10:13 2010
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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 16:05:42 +0200
Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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Hi,

My suggestion is to provide hosts with a (private) IPv4 address always when=
 dual-stack type of connection has been established. There are several docu=
ments that describe solutions for solving private IPv4 address shortage on =
the network side (DS-Lite, GI-DS-Lite, L2NAT and probably more).

In the discussion during the winter the conclusion was, afaik, that host ch=
anges should be avoided.

Mandating hosts to change its address allocation method used in an access t=
echnology, and even to include IPv4 on-demand (with deferred DHCPv4 and als=
o "quick" release) is a significant host change, imho. Even in the case han=
dset has DHCP for WiFi (and not all handsets have WiFi). Even more in the s=
plit-UE case, where DHCP is running on a separate device (such as laptop).

Best regards,

Teemu

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com]
> Sent: 16. huhtikuuta 2010 16:16
> To: Savolainen Teemu (Nokia-D/Tampere)
> Cc: rkoodli@cisco.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-
> networks-02
>=20
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:25 AM,   wrote:
> > Hi Rajeev, all,
> >
> > I'm worried about the on-demand DHCP based address allocation
> descriptions herein.
> >
> > Majority of 3GPP devices do not implement DHCP at all today for 3GPP
> access, because it is optional and gives very little when compared to
> mandatory PPP-like address allocation during bearer establishment
> procedures.
> >
> > Introduction of DHCP for significant host population (to get
> statistical savings) just for the deferred IPv4 address allocation
> feature does not sound right thing to do for me.
> >
> > We should be adding IPv6 features to hosts, not IPv4 features.
> >
>=20
> Teemu, many handsets have DHCP for  the WiFi.  I agree with you in
> principle somewhat (many transition steps add IPv4 functions), but i
> believe the reality makes your point moot in many relevant cases.  I
> strongly feel the transient on-demand IPv4 connection that  Rajeev has
> suggested is very useful in IPv4 constrained environments that require
> always-on connectivity (IMS ...).  I believe the on-demand IPv4
> address can help address the IPv4 literal issue that is described in
> draft-wing-behave-http-ip-address-literals, similar to a
> dial-on-demand function... the handset always has a path to IPv4, but
> the PDP is only setup when a packet needs to be transmitted.
>=20
> Prior to release 7, i believe this is easy to control (give back ipv4
> quickly) since we can configure the handset to terminate idle IPv4 PDP
> quickly while the IPv6 is always up.  Once to release 8 and we have
> dual-stack bearers, i am not sure the best way to address the
> on-demand use of a transient IPv4 address.
>=20
> Would you suggest the EPS bearer be re-established / re-negotiated to
> deliver the IPv4 and IPv6 addresses over PCO- IE?  Is it possible to
> send / request PCO-IE without dropping the original EPS bearer?
>=20
> Cameron
>=20
> ps.  This type of discussion is why the WG should accept this draft
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Teemu
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> >> Behalf Of ext Rajeev Koodli
> >> Sent: 16. huhtikuuta 2010 01:05
> >> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> >> Subject: FW: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-
> mobile-
> >> networks-02
> >>
> >>
> >> Hello folks,
> >>
> >> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience
> for
> >> this
> >> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a
> >> useful
> >> reference for service providers and network designers.
> >> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new
> protocol
> >> work.
> >>
> >> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I
> have
> >> addressed.
> >>
> >> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
> >>
> >> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> -Rajeev
> >>
> >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------ Forwarded Message
> >> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
> >> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
> >> To: Rajeev Koodli 
> >> Subject: New Version Notification for
> >> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
> >>
> >>
> >> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt
> has
> >> been
> >> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF
> >> repository.
> >>
> >> Filename: =A0draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
> >> Revision: =A002
> >> Title: =A0 Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
> >> Creation_date: =A02010-04-14
> >> WG ID: =A0 Independent Submission
> >> Number_of_pages: 15
> >>
> >> Abstract:
> >> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
> >> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses. =A0IPv6 is widely seen
> >> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
> >> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks. =A0This document
> >> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
> >> networks. =A0Hence, this document can be a useful reference for
> service
> >> providers and network designers.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> The IETF Secretariat.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------ End of Forwarded Message
> >>
> >
> >
> >


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 07:32:37 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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From: jouni korhonen 
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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 17:27:01 +0300
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To: Rajeev Koodli 
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Hello,

Thanks for the updated draft. I have few comments and questions =
regarding Section 3.1.

   (typically a /64) at the time of connection establishment, and an
   IPv4 address is assigned only on-demand (e.g., when an application
   binds to an IPv4 socket interface).  This is feasible on the same
   (dual-stack) PDN in LTE networks (with short DHCP lease times), or
   with on-demand IPv4 PDNs.  On-demand IPv4 PDN and address management
   can be effective in conserving IPv4 addresses; however, such a
   management could have some implications to how the PDN and addresses
   are managed at the MN.

Does the on-demand IPv4 PDN management here imply establishing and =
tearing down IPv4 PDN connections based on the IPv4 use? If so, how does =
the stack figure out when to tear down the IPv4 PDN connection? Such =
dynamic IPv4 PDN connection handling probably has somewhat undesired =
signaling load effect against the core network.

Regarding delayed IPv4 address management. I have my concerns on "split =
UE" cases, where the host OS runs DS stack and the  3G/4G terminal acts =
as a modem. How would the (DHCP-based) delayed address management work =
in that case without modifying the host OS stack? Typically the host OS =
stack would try to configure the IPv4 address also immediately.. of =
course one can do tricks on the driver level and fake addresses toward =
the host OS but..

IMHO the draft should discuss side effects and constrains in more detail =
related to the on-demand IPv4 PDN connection and address management =
before suggesting them as a general guideline.

- Jouni

On Apr 16, 2010, at 1:04 AM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:

>=20
> Hello folks,
>=20
> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience =
for this
> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a =
useful
> reference for service providers and network designers.
> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol =
work.
>=20
> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
> addressed.=20
>=20
> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>=20
> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> -Rajeev
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
> To: Rajeev Koodli 
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has =
been
> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF =
repository.
>=20
> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
> Revision:  02
> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
> WG ID:   Independent Submission
> Number_of_pages: 15
>=20
> Abstract:
> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
> providers and network designers.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>=20
>=20



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 07:50:57 2010
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Subject: RE: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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From: "Koodli, Rajeev" 
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , "Fred Baker" 
Cc: "IPv6 Operations" 
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Hi RD,

thank you for your support.

the "Standards Track" part is an error - this is an Informational ID =
(please see previous versions for instance)

Regarding the IPv6-only mobile deployment section: it is an important =
consideration for mobile networks. The relevant section is discussing =
what are the issues, specifically roaming and applications impact. It is =
not proposing anything new here, but highlighting the considerations.

Regards,

-Rajeev



-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org on behalf of R=E9mi Despr=E9s
Sent: Fri 4/16/2010 6:55 AM
To: Fred Baker
Cc: IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  =
draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
=20
Hi Fred,

The informational part of the draft very clear and IMHO extremely =
valuable.
Like Mohamed, I therefore support, like Mohamed in particular, that it =
can become an "informational" WG document.=20

As far as the proposal that "an LTE deployment may be IPv6-only" is =
concerned (sec. 3.3), it is more than informational (which BTW is =
consistent with the Standards Track intended status of the current =
draft).
It could therefore IMHO be part of another draft, but should not be =
included in the informational WG document.

(About this particular proposal, I rather think that LTE mobile access =
networks should be all made dual stack, for some undetermined time, =
while those of previous generation should continue to evolve so as to =
become all dual stack.)

Regards,
RD
=20

Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 02:08, Fred Baker a =E9crit :

> I would like feedback from the working group. Rajeev would like to =
make this a working group document. Is there support?
>=20
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> Hello folks,
>>=20
>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience =
for this
>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a =
useful
>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new =
protocol work.
>>=20
>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I =
have
>> addressed.=20
>>=20
>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>=20
>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> -Rajeev
>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------ Forwarded Message
>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>=20
>>=20
>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has =
been
>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF =
repository.
>>=20
>> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>> Revision:  02
>> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
>> WG ID:   Independent Submission
>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>=20
>> Abstract:
>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
>> providers and network designers.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
>=20
>=20





From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 08:35:30 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 17:27:05 +0200
Cc: "Fred Baker" , "IPv6 Operations" 
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Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 16:46, Koodli, Rajeev a =E9crit :

> the "Standards Track" part is an error - this is an Informational ID =
(please see previous versions for instance)

I see.
Thanks for the clarification.


> Regarding the IPv6-only mobile deployment section: it is an important =
consideration for mobile networks. The relevant section is discussing =
what are the issues, specifically roaming and applications impact.


> It is not proposing anything new here, but highlighting the =
considerations.

Well, I didn't understand it quite this way (with the two following =
sentences in particular), so that the text can probably be improved in =
this respect.
-"This is a realistic scenario today where an LTE deployment may be =
IPv6-only, whereas a roamed 3G UMTS network may not offer IPv6 PDN"
-"In summary, IPv6-only deployments should be encouraged."

Also, when you say:
 "However, by taking the initiative to introduce IPv6-only for the
 newer MNs, the mobile networks can significantly reduce the demand
 for private IPv4 addresses."
It doesn't take into account the following:
- if a dual-stack MN only connects to IPv6-enabled servers (like an =
IPv6-only that consumes no public IPv4 address space at all), it doesn't =
consume any public-IPv4 address space.
- It has a NET10 IPv4 address, which gives access to a NAT44, but never =
uses it.=20

In summary, that is *dual-stack deployments* that must be "encouraged" =
today.
In my understanding, this is the current IETF stand, and should remain =
so until more experience is gained.

Regards,
RD
=20

>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> -Rajeev
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org on behalf of R=E9mi Despr=E9s
> Sent: Fri 4/16/2010 6:55 AM
> To: Fred Baker
> Cc: IPv6 Operations
> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  =
draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>=20
> Hi Fred,
>=20
> The informational part of the draft very clear and IMHO extremely =
valuable.
> Like Mohamed, I therefore support, like Mohamed in particular, that it =
can become an "informational" WG document.=20
>=20
> As far as the proposal that "an LTE deployment may be IPv6-only" is =
concerned (sec. 3.3), it is more than informational (which BTW is =
consistent with the Standards Track intended status of the current =
draft).
> It could therefore IMHO be part of another draft, but should not be =
included in the informational WG document.
>=20
> (About this particular proposal, I rather think that LTE mobile access =
networks should be all made dual stack, for some undetermined time, =
while those of previous generation should continue to evolve so as to =
become all dual stack.)
>=20
> Regards,
> RD
>=20
>=20
> Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 02:08, Fred Baker a =E9crit :
>=20
>> I would like feedback from the working group. Rajeev would like to =
make this a working group document. Is there support?
>>=20
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Hello folks,
>>>=20
>>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience =
for this
>>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a =
useful
>>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new =
protocol work.
>>>=20
>>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I =
have
>>> addressed.=20
>>>=20
>>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>>=20
>>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>>=20
>>> -Rajeev
>>>=20
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt =
has been
>>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF =
repository.
>>>=20
>>> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>>> Revision:  02
>>> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>>> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
>>> WG ID:   Independent Submission
>>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>>=20
>>> Abstract:
>>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
>>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
>>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>>> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for =
service
>>> providers and network designers.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 09:05:35 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Cameron Byrne 
To: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UultaSBEZXNwculz?= 
Cc: "Koodli, Rajeev" , Fred Baker ,  IPv6 Operations 
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On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 8:27 AM, R=E9mi Despr=E9s  wr=
ote:
>
> Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 16:46, Koodli, Rajeev a =E9crit :
>
>> the "Standards Track" part is an error - this is an Informational ID (pl=
ease see previous versions for instance)
>
> I see.
> Thanks for the clarification.
>
>
>> Regarding the IPv6-only mobile deployment section: it is an important co=
nsideration for mobile networks. The relevant section is discussing what ar=
e the issues, specifically roaming and applications impact.
>
>
>> It is not proposing anything new here, but highlighting the consideratio=
ns.
>
> Well, I didn't understand it quite this way (with the two following sente=
nces in particular), so that the text can probably be improved in this resp=
ect.
> -"This is a realistic scenario today where an LTE deployment may be IPv6-=
only, whereas a roamed 3G UMTS network may not offer IPv6 PDN"
> -"In summary, IPv6-only deployments should be encouraged."
>
> Also, when you say:
> =A0"However, by taking the initiative to introduce IPv6-only for the
> =A0newer MNs, the mobile networks can significantly reduce the demand
> =A0for private IPv4 addresses."
> It doesn't take into account the following:
> - if a dual-stack MN only connects to IPv6-enabled servers (like an IPv6-=
only that consumes no public IPv4 address space at all), it doesn't consume=
 any public-IPv4 address space.
> - It has a NET10 IPv4 address, which gives access to a NAT44, but never u=
ses it.
>
> In summary, that is *dual-stack deployments* that must be "encouraged" to=
day.
> In my understanding, this is the current IETF stand, and should remain so=
 until more experience is gained.

Disagree.  Any solution that is dependent on IPv4 is not easily
achievable for a larger network operator. Large mobile operators do
not have enough private or public space to operate the networks they
have now.  Overlapping spacing introduces several challenges,
especially in an IMS environment.  Dual-stack also cost 2x the price
in pre-release 8 networks (per PDP pricing...)

The IETF-3GPP joint meeting recognized this is supporting the
IPv6-only + v6v4 interworking model

http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/workshop/2010-03-01_IPv4-to-IPv6_with-IETF/Docs/IPW=
100060.zip

Dual-stack would have been great if this were 2005, but the dual-stack
ship has sailed.  It's too late. The easiest path forward is IPv6-only
given that devices are always,  the only IPv4 space available is BOGON
or overlapped with SBCs and complicated internal NATs, communication
is any to any, connected devices grow exponentially, and major content
is going IPv6 in the next year (Google is there now, others are on
their way).  I predict by this time next year i have AAAA for over 50%
of the bandwidth my customers use.

On a personal note, for the last 2 months i have been IPv6-only with
NAT64 on my 3G mobile (work and persona) devices for the last 2 months
with not negative impacts.

Cameron

>
> Regards,
> RD
>
>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> -Rajeev
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org on behalf of R=E9mi Despr=E9s
>> Sent: Fri 4/16/2010 6:55 AM
>> To: Fred Baker
>> Cc: IPv6 Operations
>> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for =A0draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile=
-networks-02
>>
>> Hi Fred,
>>
>> The informational part of the draft very clear and IMHO extremely valuab=
le.
>> Like Mohamed, I therefore support, like Mohamed in particular, that it c=
an become an "informational" WG document.
>>
>> As far as the proposal that "an LTE deployment may be IPv6-only" is conc=
erned (sec. 3.3), it is more than informational (which BTW is consistent wi=
th the Standards Track intended status of the current draft).
>> It could therefore IMHO be part of another draft, but should not be incl=
uded in the informational WG document.
>>
>> (About this particular proposal, I rather think that LTE mobile access n=
etworks should be all made dual stack, for some undetermined time, while th=
ose of previous generation should continue to evolve so as to become all du=
al stack.)
>>
>> Regards,
>> RD
>>
>>
>> Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 02:08, Fred Baker a =E9crit :
>>
>>> I would like feedback from the working group. Rajeev would like to make=
 this a working group document. Is there support?
>>>
>>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello folks,
>>>>
>>>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience fo=
r this
>>>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a usef=
ul
>>>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>>>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol=
 work.
>>>>
>>>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
>>>> addressed.
>>>>
>>>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>>>
>>>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> -Rajeev
>>>>
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>>>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has =
been
>>>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF reposit=
ory.
>>>>
>>>> Filename: =A0draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>>>> Revision: =A002
>>>> Title: =A0 Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>>>> Creation_date: =A02010-04-14
>>>> WG ID: =A0 Independent Submission
>>>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>>>
>>>> Abstract:
>>>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>>>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses. =A0IPv6 is widely seen
>>>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>>>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks. =A0This document
>>>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>>>> networks. =A0Hence, this document can be a useful reference for servic=
e
>>>> providers and network designers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 09:49:48 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Cameron Byrne 
To: jouni korhonen 
Cc: Rajeev Koodli , v6ops@ops.ietf.org
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On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 7:27 AM, jouni korhonen  wr=
ote:
> Hello,
>
> Thanks for the updated draft. I have few comments and questions regarding=
 Section 3.1.
>
> =A0 (typically a /64) at the time of connection establishment, and an
> =A0 IPv4 address is assigned only on-demand (e.g., when an application
> =A0 binds to an IPv4 socket interface). =A0This is feasible on the same
> =A0 (dual-stack) PDN in LTE networks (with short DHCP lease times), or
> =A0 with on-demand IPv4 PDNs. =A0On-demand IPv4 PDN and address managemen=
t
> =A0 can be effective in conserving IPv4 addresses; however, such a
> =A0 management could have some implications to how the PDN and addresses
> =A0 are managed at the MN.
>
> Does the on-demand IPv4 PDN management here imply establishing and tearin=
g down IPv4 PDN connections based on the IPv4 use? If so, how does the stac=
k figure out when to tear down the IPv4 PDN connection? Such dynamic IPv4 P=
DN connection handling probably has somewhat undesired signaling load effec=
t against the core network.
>

My view on this is that NAT44 and NAT64 are equal costs.  So, i deploy
NAT64 and my UE is IPv6-only.  If there were a scenario where
DNS64/NAT64 does not work (IPv4 literal, IPv4-only App, ...), then the
IPv4 PDP is establish.  As i mentioned before, IPv6-only handset is a
very acceptable user experience using today's technology and
standards.  What Rajeev is suggesting helps with some corner cases (at
least that is how I would use it).

Cameron


> Regarding delayed IPv4 address management. I have my concerns on "split U=
E" cases, where the host OS runs DS stack and the =A03G/4G terminal acts as=
 a modem. How would the (DHCP-based) delayed address management work in tha=
t case without modifying the host OS stack? Typically the host OS stack wou=
ld try to configure the IPv4 address also immediately.. of course one can d=
o tricks on the driver level and fake addresses toward the host OS but..
>
> IMHO the draft should discuss side effects and constrains in more detail =
related to the on-demand IPv4 PDN connection and address management before =
suggesting them as a general guideline.
>
> - Jouni
>
> On Apr 16, 2010, at 1:04 AM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:
>
>>
>> Hello folks,
>>
>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience for =
this
>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a useful
>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol w=
ork.
>>
>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
>> addressed.
>>
>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>
>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> -Rajeev
>>
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ Forwarded Message
>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>
>>
>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has be=
en
>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF repositor=
y.
>>
>> Filename: =A0draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>> Revision: =A002
>> Title: =A0 Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>> Creation_date: =A02010-04-14
>> WG ID: =A0 Independent Submission
>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>
>> Abstract:
>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses. =A0IPv6 is widely seen
>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks. =A0This document
>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>> networks. =A0Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
>> providers and network designers.
>>
>>
>>
>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>
>>
>>
>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>
>>
>
>
>


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 09:50:07 2010
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Subject: RE: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 12:45:12 -0400
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From: "Koodli, Rajeev" 
To: =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= 
Cc: "Fred Baker" , "IPv6 Operations" 
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Hi RD,

perhaps it is useful to mention here is that this ID addresses multiple =
considerations - IPv4 exhaust, NAT placement, Roaming (in the context of =
IPv6-only models) and Fixed-Mobile Convergence.=20
=20
The ID states that the IETF dual-stack model is readily applicable in =
mobile networks, and that's the likely deployment model for a majority =
of mobile providers today.=20

Towards the end of Section 3.1:
=20
" In other words, the IETF's dual-stack model
   of separate IPv6 and IPv4 networks is readily applicable to mobile
   networks with the support for distinct APNs and the ability to carry
   IPv6 traffic on PDP/PDN connections."

And in Section 4:

"The IETF dual-stack model [RFC4213] can be applied to the mobile =
networks readily."

Your input on dual-stack applies here (specifically Section 3.1).

Separately, IPv6-only deployments may be relatively few, but need to be =
looked into. In IPv6-only deployments, there can be no IPv4 connectivity =
(PDN/PDP) at all.  Please see more below.
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: R=E9mi Despr=E9s [mailto:remi.despres@free.fr]
Sent: Fri 4/16/2010 8:27 AM
To: Koodli, Rajeev
Cc: Fred Baker; IPv6 Operations
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  =
draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
=20

> Regarding the IPv6-only mobile deployment section: it is an important =
consideration for mobile networks. The relevant section is discussing =
what are the issues, specifically roaming and applications impact.
> It is not proposing anything new here, but highlighting the =
considerations.

>>Well, I didn't understand it quite this way (with the two following =
sentences in particular), so that the text can probably be improved in =
this respect.

okay.

>>-"This is a realistic scenario today where an LTE deployment may be =
IPv6-only, whereas a roamed 3G UMTS network may not offer IPv6 PDN"

What this is stating is that if an LTE deployment is IPv6-only, there is =
likelihood that the roamed 3G network does not offer IPv6 PDN =
connectivity; the emphasis is on the "may". It should be read together =
with=20

"The service providers can control their own network design but not =
their peer's networks which they rely on for roaming.  Perhaps more =
importantly, the users expect similar experience even when they are =
roaming.=20
This imposes a constraint on providers interested in IPv6-only =
deployments to also support IPv4 addressing when their own (outbound) =
subscribers roam to networks which do not offer IPv6. This is a =
realistic scenario today where an LTE deployment may be IPv6-only, =
whereas a roamed 3G UMTS network may not offer IPv6 PDN connectivity =
service."
=20
I could reword the last sentence to: "For instance, if an LTE deployment =
is IPv6-only, a roamed 3G UMTS network may not offer IPv6 connectivity"

>>-"In summary, IPv6-only deployments should be encouraged."
>>Also, when you say:
>> "However, by taking the initiative to introduce IPv6-only for the
 >>newer MNs, the mobile networks can significantly reduce the demand
 >>for private IPv4 addresses."

>>It doesn't take into account the following:
>>- if a dual-stack MN only connects to IPv6-enabled servers (like an =
IPv6-only that consumes no public IPv4 address space at all), it doesn't =
consume any >>public-IPv4 address space.

The MN is assumed to be dual-stack. With IPv6-only mobile network =
deployments, the MN is only allowed to activate the IPv6 PDN/PDP =
connection.=20
So, there is no IPv4 connectivity even though the MN is dual-stack. As I =
explain in the ID, the MN will likely need this dual-stack capability =
during roaming (when the roamed network does not support IPv6 =
connectivity).


>>- It has a NET10 IPv4 address, which gives access to a NAT44, but =
never uses it.=20

Same consideration as above. Since the network offered connectivity =
(i.e., PDN/PDP) is IPv6-only, there is no IPv4 connectivity/addressing.

Note that this is a deployment model that some providers may consider, =
but it comes with the issues associated with roaming and applications.

>>In summary, that is *dual-stack deployments* that must be "encouraged" =
today.

Sure, dual-stack is not only encouraged but the *recommended* model. =
This is captured in the ID (as I mentioned above):

" In other words, the IETF's dual-stack model
   of separate IPv6 and IPv4 networks is readily applicable to mobile
   networks with the support for distinct APNs and the ability to carry
   IPv6 traffic on PDP/PDN connections."

>>In my understanding, this is the current IETF stand, and should remain =
so until more experience is gained.

Dual-stack is the recommended model. I am suggesting *encouraging* =
IPv6-only models modulo considerations described in Section 3.3

I could reword "In summary, IPv6-only deployments should be encouraged." =
to

"In summary, IPv6-only deployments should be encouraged while =
considering the roaming and applications issues"

Thanks again,

-Rajeev


Regards,
RD
=20

>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> -Rajeev
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org on behalf of R=E9mi Despr=E9s
> Sent: Fri 4/16/2010 6:55 AM
> To: Fred Baker
> Cc: IPv6 Operations
> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  =
draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>=20
> Hi Fred,
>=20
> The informational part of the draft very clear and IMHO extremely =
valuable.
> Like Mohamed, I therefore support, like Mohamed in particular, that it =
can become an "informational" WG document.=20
>=20
> As far as the proposal that "an LTE deployment may be IPv6-only" is =
concerned (sec. 3.3), it is more than informational (which BTW is =
consistent with the Standards Track intended status of the current =
draft).
> It could therefore IMHO be part of another draft, but should not be =
included in the informational WG document.
>=20
> (About this particular proposal, I rather think that LTE mobile access =
networks should be all made dual stack, for some undetermined time, =
while those of previous generation should continue to evolve so as to =
become all dual stack.)
>=20
> Regards,
> RD
>=20
>=20
> Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 02:08, Fred Baker a =E9crit :
>=20
>> I would like feedback from the working group. Rajeev would like to =
make this a working group document. Is there support?
>>=20
>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Hello folks,
>>>=20
>>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience =
for this
>>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a =
useful
>>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new =
protocol work.
>>>=20
>>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I =
have
>>> addressed.=20
>>>=20
>>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>>=20
>>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>>=20
>>> -Rajeev
>>>=20
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt =
has been
>>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF =
repository.
>>>=20
>>> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>>> Revision:  02
>>> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>>> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
>>> WG ID:   Independent Submission
>>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>>=20
>>> Abstract:
>>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
>>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
>>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>>> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for =
service
>>> providers and network designers.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 10:10:11 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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On 2010-04-16 12:02, Cameron Byrne wrote:
>> In summary, that is *dual-stack deployments* that must be "encouraged" today.
>
> Disagree.

Dual-stack deployment, as encouraged by the IETF, didn't mean IPv6+NAT44.

In my opinion, IPv6+NAT64 is less evil than IPv6+NAT44.

Simon
-- 
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Cameron Byrne 
To: Simon Perreault 
Cc: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UultaSBEZXNwculz?= ,  "Koodli, Rajeev" , Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations 
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On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Simon Perreault
 wrote:
> On 2010-04-16 12:02, Cameron Byrne wrote:
>>>
>>> In summary, that is *dual-stack deployments* that must be "encouraged"
>>> today.
>>
>> Disagree.
>
> Dual-stack deployment, as encouraged by the IETF, didn't mean IPv6+NAT44.
>
> In my opinion, IPv6+NAT64 is less evil than IPv6+NAT44.
>

+1

And in 3GPP Pre-Release 8, there is business case for it based saving
cost per PDP (cost per PDP in a vendors hardware charging model, or
cost per PDP in the related cost of signalling, state, and mobility
events of 2x the PDP).

Cameron

> Simon
> --
> NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca
> STUN/TURN server =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0--> http://numb.viagenie.ca
> vCard 4.0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --> http://www.vcarddav.org
>


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 10:30:51 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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chair hat off.

I don't think that RFC 4213 says anything about NATs pro or con; a quick =
scan of the document didn't find the character string "NAT" or =
"[nN]etwork [aA]ddress" anywhere in it. What it says could be summarized =
as "turn on IPv6 in your existing IPv4 network", without making much =
comment on the IPv4 network. In today's world, any IPv4 network that =
interfaces with edge networks, which is to say the edge networks =
themselves or the ISPs they talk with, will find a NAT somewhere in the =
discussion.

In other words, I disagree that the the statement has anything to do =
with the IPv4 implementation whatsoever. It says to turn on IPv6 without =
changing your IPv4 implementation.

On Apr 16, 2010, at 10:05 AM, Simon Perreault wrote:

> On 2010-04-16 12:02, Cameron Byrne wrote:
>>> In summary, that is *dual-stack deployments* that must be =
"encouraged" today.
>>=20
>> Disagree.
>=20
> Dual-stack deployment, as encouraged by the IETF, didn't mean =
IPv6+NAT44.
>=20
> In my opinion, IPv6+NAT64 is less evil than IPv6+NAT44.
>=20
> Simon
> --=20
> NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca
> STUN/TURN server        --> http://numb.viagenie.ca
> vCard 4.0               --> http://www.vcarddav.org

http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 10:31:39 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 18:02, Cameron Byrne a =E9crit :

> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 8:27 AM, R=E9mi Despr=E9s =
 wrote:
>>=20
>> Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 16:46, Koodli, Rajeev a =E9crit :
>>=20
>>> the "Standards Track" part is an error - this is an Informational ID =
(please see previous versions for instance)
>>=20
>> I see.
>> Thanks for the clarification.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Regarding the IPv6-only mobile deployment section: it is an =
important consideration for mobile networks. The relevant section is =
discussing what are the issues, specifically roaming and applications =
impact.
>>=20
>>=20
>>> It is not proposing anything new here, but highlighting the =
considerations.
>>=20
>> Well, I didn't understand it quite this way (with the two following =
sentences in particular), so that the text can probably be improved in =
this respect.
>> -"This is a realistic scenario today where an LTE deployment may be =
IPv6-only, whereas a roamed 3G UMTS network may not offer IPv6 PDN"
>> -"In summary, IPv6-only deployments should be encouraged."
>>=20
>> Also, when you say:
>>  "However, by taking the initiative to introduce IPv6-only for the
>>  newer MNs, the mobile networks can significantly reduce the demand
>>  for private IPv4 addresses."
>> It doesn't take into account the following:
>> - if a dual-stack MN only connects to IPv6-enabled servers (like an =
IPv6-only that consumes no public IPv4 address space at all), it doesn't =
consume any public-IPv4 address space.
>> - It has a NET10 IPv4 address, which gives access to a NAT44, but =
never uses it.
>>=20
>> In summary, that is *dual-stack deployments* that must be =
"encouraged" today.
>> In my understanding, this is the current IETF stand, and should =
remain so until more experience is gained.
>=20
> Disagree.

Thanks for the debate then, hopefully constructive.

>  Any solution that is dependent on IPv4 is not easily
> achievable for a larger network operator. Large mobile operators do
> not have enough private or public space to operate the networks they
> have now. =20

> Overlapping spacing introduces several challenges,
> especially in an IMS environment. =20

Agreed.
However, like 6rd permits to easily offer native IPv6 on IPv4-only =
infrastructures (see RFC 5569), the same principle reversed permits to =
offer public IPv4 (with restricted port sets) on IPv6-only =
infrastructures.=20


> Dual-stack also cost 2x the price
> in pre-release 8 networks (per PDP pricing...)

It doesn't need to.

> The IETF-3GPP joint meeting recognized this is supporting the
> IPv6-only + v6v4 interworking model
>=20
> =
http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/workshop/2010-03-01_IPv4-to-IPv6_with-IETF/Docs/IP=
W100060.zip

Thanks for the reference.
It's indeed useful to know.

> Dual-stack would have been great if this were 2005, but the dual-stack
> ship has sailed.  It's too late.

Maybe if mobile operators have already made up their mind.
I believe however that many operational problems if IPv6-only is =
proposed with NAT64s are still overlooked.
In particular:
- The Port-Control Protocol that is under study in Softwire and =
considered for NAT64s is an example of additional complexity that has to =
be considered.
- If hosts cannot always distinguish whether IPv6 addresses of remote =
hosts are IPv6 end-to-end or are subject to NAT64 translations, the =
effect is in my understanding still hard to predict.  =20

=20
> The easiest path forward is IPv6-only
> given that devices are always,  the only IPv4 space available is BOGON
> or overlapped with SBCs and complicated internal NATs, communication
> is any to any, connected devices grow exponentially,

(I didn't get the meaning of this sentence.)

> and major content
> is going IPv6 in the next year (Google is there now, others are on
> their way).  I predict by this time next year i have AAAA for over 50%
> of the bandwidth my customers use.

That's certainly a good expectation, which I share to a good extent (I =
use native IPv6 in my home-office, deployed by Free since December =
2007).

> On a personal note, for the last 2 months i have been IPv6-only with
> NAT64 on my 3G mobile (work and persona) devices for the last 2 months
> with not negative impacts.

That's good indeed (although of course it doesn't prove that others, =
with different terminals and/or applications, would also be fully =
satisfied with IPv6-only)=20

Regards,
RD




>=20
> Cameron
>=20
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> RD
>>=20
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>>=20
>>> -Rajeev
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org on behalf of R=E9mi Despr=E9s
>>> Sent: Fri 4/16/2010 6:55 AM
>>> To: Fred Baker
>>> Cc: IPv6 Operations
>>> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  =
draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>=20
>>> Hi Fred,
>>>=20
>>> The informational part of the draft very clear and IMHO extremely =
valuable.
>>> Like Mohamed, I therefore support, like Mohamed in particular, that =
it can become an "informational" WG document.
>>>=20
>>> As far as the proposal that "an LTE deployment may be IPv6-only" is =
concerned (sec. 3.3), it is more than informational (which BTW is =
consistent with the Standards Track intended status of the current =
draft).
>>> It could therefore IMHO be part of another draft, but should not be =
included in the informational WG document.
>>>=20
>>> (About this particular proposal, I rather think that LTE mobile =
access networks should be all made dual stack, for some undetermined =
time, while those of previous generation should continue to evolve so as =
to become all dual stack.)
>>>=20
>>> Regards,
>>> RD
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 02:08, Fred Baker a =E9crit :
>>>=20
>>>> I would like feedback from the working group. Rajeev would like to =
make this a working group document. Is there support?
>>>>=20
>>>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Hello folks,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended =
audience for this
>>>>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a =
useful
>>>>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>>>>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new =
protocol work.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I =
have
>>>>> addressed.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> -Rajeev
>>>>>=20
>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>>>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>>>>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>>>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt =
has been
>>>>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF =
repository.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>>>>> Revision:  02
>>>>> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>>>>> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
>>>>> WG ID:   Independent Submission
>>>>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices =
is
>>>>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely =
seen
>>>>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>>>>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This =
document
>>>>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>>>>> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for =
service
>>>>> providers and network designers.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 10:46:39 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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On 2010-04-16 13:28, Fred Baker wrote:
> I don't think that RFC 4213 says anything about NATs pro or con; a
> quick scan of the document didn't find the character string "NAT" or
> "[nN]etwork [aA]ddress" anywhere in it. What it says could be
> summarized as "turn on IPv6 in your existing IPv4 network", without
> making much comment on the IPv4 network. In today's world, any IPv4
> network that interfaces with edge networks, which is to say the edge
> networks themselves or the ISPs they talk with, will find a NAT
> somewhere in the discussion.

Exactly my point. RFC 4213 doesn't consider NATs.

> In other words, I disagree that the the statement has anything to do
> with the IPv4 implementation whatsoever. It says to turn on IPv6
> without changing your IPv4 implementation.

If an ISP wants to go from providing NAT44 to providing IPv6+NAT64, 
would that go against the IETF's dual-stack recommendation? It sure 
seems like it since it involves completely shutting down IPv4.

Thanks,
Simon
-- 
NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca
STUN/TURN server        --> http://numb.viagenie.ca
vCard 4.0               --> http://www.vcarddav.org


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 11:03:23 2010
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Subject: RE: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:53:04 -0400
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Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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References: <20100413233059.8DA253A6923@core3.amsl.com>  <18034D4D7FE9AE48BF19AB1B0EF2729F59D5E2FA16@NOK-EUMSG-01.mgdnok.nokia.com>
From: "Koodli, Rajeev" 
To: , 
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Hi Teemu,

thanks for the input.

Agree to your point about adding IPv6 features and not IPv4.
However, the description of DHCP-based addressing is for LTE, not 3G.
And the description is about having DHCP as a mechanism to manage the =
available IPv4 addressing pool.
Are you saying that it should not be available or should not be used?

Regards,

-Rajeev



-----Original Message-----
From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]
Sent: Fri 4/16/2010 2:25 AM
To: Koodli, Rajeev; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: RE: New Version Notification for  =
draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
=20
Hi Rajeev, all,

I'm worried about the on-demand DHCP based address allocation =
descriptions herein.=20

Majority of 3GPP devices do not implement DHCP at all today for 3GPP =
access, because it is optional and gives very little when compared to =
mandatory PPP-like address allocation during bearer establishment =
procedures.=20

Introduction of DHCP for significant host population (to get statistical =
savings) just for the deferred IPv4 address allocation feature does not =
sound right thing to do for me.

We should be adding IPv6 features to hosts, not IPv4 features.

Best regards,

Teemu

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of ext Rajeev Koodli
> Sent: 16. huhtikuuta 2010 01:05
> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: FW: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-
> networks-02
>=20
>=20
> Hello folks,
>=20
> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience =
for
> this
> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a
> useful
> reference for service providers and network designers.
> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol
> work.
>=20
> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
> addressed.
>=20
> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>=20
> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>=20
> Thanks,
>=20
> -Rajeev
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ------ Forwarded Message
> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
> To: Rajeev Koodli 
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has
> been
> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF
> repository.
>=20
> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
> Revision:  02
> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
> WG ID:   Independent Submission
> Number_of_pages: 15
>=20
> Abstract:
> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
> providers and network designers.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>=20




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 11:06:53 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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Cc: Cameron Byrne , =?iso-8859-1?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= , "Koodli, Rajeev" , IPv6 Operations 
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References: 	 	 <4903E4F9-C0EB-429C-8494-11341F1A219C@free.fr>	 <4D35478224365146822AE9E3AD4A266609382D52@exchtewks3.starentnetworks.com>	 <9C4F240C-0BA2-4091-9F5D-226485464C33@free.fr>  <4BC898C5.6010903@viagenie.ca> <3923062E-F016-4CAF-A2DC-99C38D6FCFCD@cisco.com> <4BC8A1F8.6030601@viagenie.ca>
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As I said, the IETF's recommendation makes no suggestion that one even =
think about one's IPv4 implementation. It says "turn on IPv6 in your =
existing IPv4 network". If your existing IPv4 network is using IPv4/IPv6 =
translation to convert the edge network's IPv4 to the core network's =
IPv6, I would guess that means "use IPv4/IPv6 translation". Somehow, I =
don't think that's a common model.

I'll refer you to =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines
  "Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition Mechanisms", Jari Arkko, Fred
  Baker, 24-Feb-10

While it is not itself a consensus document (I'd like to make it one, =
but that's another discussion), I believe that it represents the current =
IETF consensus. In the discussion in section 4, you'll find that =
IPv4/IPv6 translation mentioned but is not pushed. Says one of the =
co-authors of the IPv4/IPv6 translation approach.




On Apr 16, 2010, at 10:44 AM, Simon Perreault wrote:

> On 2010-04-16 13:28, Fred Baker wrote:
>> I don't think that RFC 4213 says anything about NATs pro or con; a
>> quick scan of the document didn't find the character string "NAT" or
>> "[nN]etwork [aA]ddress" anywhere in it. What it says could be
>> summarized as "turn on IPv6 in your existing IPv4 network", without
>> making much comment on the IPv4 network. In today's world, any IPv4
>> network that interfaces with edge networks, which is to say the edge
>> networks themselves or the ISPs they talk with, will find a NAT
>> somewhere in the discussion.
>=20
> Exactly my point. RFC 4213 doesn't consider NATs.
>=20
>> In other words, I disagree that the the statement has anything to do
>> with the IPv4 implementation whatsoever. It says to turn on IPv6
>> without changing your IPv4 implementation.
>=20
> If an ISP wants to go from providing NAT44 to providing IPv6+NAT64, =
would that go against the IETF's dual-stack recommendation? It sure =
seems like it since it involves completely shutting down IPv4.
>=20
> Thanks,
> Simon
> --=20
> NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca
> STUN/TURN server        --> http://numb.viagenie.ca
> vCard 4.0               --> http://www.vcarddav.org

http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 11:16:53 2010
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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:15:28 -0700
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Rajeev Koodli 
To: , 
CC: 
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Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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Hi Teemu,

On 4/16/10 7:05 AM, "teemu.savolainen@nokia.com"
 wrote:

> My suggestion is to provide hosts with a (private) IPv4 address always wh=
en
> dual-stack type of connection has been established. There are several
> documents that describe solutions for solving private IPv4 address shorta=
ge on
> the network side (DS-Lite, GI-DS-Lite, L2NAT and probably more).

Well, those are options for some. But the main point here is that IPv4
address is tied to the corresponding PDN/PDP. The network may want to
reclaim the PDN/PDP due to session timers. So, when the PDN/PDP is deleted,
so is the IP address. IMO, we cannot disallow this.

>=20
> In the discussion during the winter the conclusion was, afaik, that host
> changes should be avoided.
>=20
> Mandating hosts to change its address allocation method used in an access
> technology, and even to include IPv4 on-demand (with deferred DHCPv4 and =
also
> "quick" release) is a significant host change, imho. Even in the case han=
dset
> has DHCP for WiFi (and not all handsets have WiFi). Even more in the spli=
t-UE
> case, where DHCP is running on a separate device (such as laptop).

As I mentioned in a previous email, Deferred IP address allocation is
specified for use in LTE. If 3G handsets do not do DHCP, it does not mean
LTE handsets should not, right?

Thanks,

-Rajeev


>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Teemu
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ext Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com]
>> Sent: 16. huhtikuuta 2010 16:16
>> To: Savolainen Teemu (Nokia-D/Tampere)
>> Cc: rkoodli@cisco.com; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-
>> networks-02
>>=20
>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:25 AM,   wrote:
>>> Hi Rajeev, all,
>>>=20
>>> I'm worried about the on-demand DHCP based address allocation
>> descriptions herein.
>>>=20
>>> Majority of 3GPP devices do not implement DHCP at all today for 3GPP
>> access, because it is optional and gives very little when compared to
>> mandatory PPP-like address allocation during bearer establishment
>> procedures.
>>>=20
>>> Introduction of DHCP for significant host population (to get
>> statistical savings) just for the deferred IPv4 address allocation
>> feature does not sound right thing to do for me.
>>>=20
>>> We should be adding IPv6 features to hosts, not IPv4 features.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> Teemu, many handsets have DHCP for  the WiFi.  I agree with you in
>> principle somewhat (many transition steps add IPv4 functions), but i
>> believe the reality makes your point moot in many relevant cases.  I
>> strongly feel the transient on-demand IPv4 connection that  Rajeev has
>> suggested is very useful in IPv4 constrained environments that require
>> always-on connectivity (IMS ...).  I believe the on-demand IPv4
>> address can help address the IPv4 literal issue that is described in
>> draft-wing-behave-http-ip-address-literals, similar to a
>> dial-on-demand function... the handset always has a path to IPv4, but
>> the PDP is only setup when a packet needs to be transmitted.
>>=20
>> Prior to release 7, i believe this is easy to control (give back ipv4
>> quickly) since we can configure the handset to terminate idle IPv4 PDP
>> quickly while the IPv6 is always up.  Once to release 8 and we have
>> dual-stack bearers, i am not sure the best way to address the
>> on-demand use of a transient IPv4 address.
>>=20
>> Would you suggest the EPS bearer be re-established / re-negotiated to
>> deliver the IPv4 and IPv6 addresses over PCO- IE?  Is it possible to
>> send / request PCO-IE without dropping the original EPS bearer?
>>=20
>> Cameron
>>=20
>> ps.  This type of discussion is why the WG should accept this draft
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Best regards,
>>>=20
>>> Teemu
>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of ext Rajeev Koodli
>>>> Sent: 16. huhtikuuta 2010 01:05
>>>> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>>>> Subject: FW: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-
>> mobile-
>>>> networks-02
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Hello folks,
>>>>=20
>>>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience
>> for
>>>> this
>>>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a
>>>> useful
>>>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>>>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new
>> protocol
>>>> work.
>>>>=20
>>>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I
>> have
>>>> addressed.
>>>>=20
>>>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>>>=20
>>>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>>>=20
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>=20
>>>> -Rajeev
>>>>=20
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>>>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt
>> has
>>>> been
>>>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF
>>>> repository.
>>>>=20
>>>> Filename: =A0draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>>>> Revision: =A002
>>>> Title: =A0 Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>>>> Creation_date: =A02010-04-14
>>>> WG ID: =A0 Independent Submission
>>>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>>>=20
>>>> Abstract:
>>>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>>>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses. =A0IPv6 is widely seen
>>>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>>>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks. =A0This document
>>>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>>>> networks. =A0Hence, this document can be a useful reference for
>> service
>>>> providers and network designers.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 11:22:02 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Cameron Byrne 
To: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UultaSBEZXNwculz?= 
Cc: "Koodli, Rajeev" , Fred Baker ,  IPv6 Operations 
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On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 10:30 AM, R=E9mi Despr=E9s  w=
rote:
>
> Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 18:02, Cameron Byrne a =E9crit :
>
>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 8:27 AM, R=E9mi Despr=E9s =
 wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 16:46, Koodli, Rajeev a =E9crit :
>>>
>>>> the "Standards Track" part is an error - this is an Informational ID (=
please see previous versions for instance)
>>>
>>> I see.
>>> Thanks for the clarification.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Regarding the IPv6-only mobile deployment section: it is an important =
consideration for mobile networks. The relevant section is discussing what =
are the issues, specifically roaming and applications impact.
>>>
>>>
>>>> It is not proposing anything new here, but highlighting the considerat=
ions.
>>>
>>> Well, I didn't understand it quite this way (with the two following sen=
tences in particular), so that the text can probably be improved in this re=
spect.
>>> -"This is a realistic scenario today where an LTE deployment may be IPv=
6-only, whereas a roamed 3G UMTS network may not offer IPv6 PDN"
>>> -"In summary, IPv6-only deployments should be encouraged."
>>>
>>> Also, when you say:
>>> =A0"However, by taking the initiative to introduce IPv6-only for the
>>> =A0newer MNs, the mobile networks can significantly reduce the demand
>>> =A0for private IPv4 addresses."
>>> It doesn't take into account the following:
>>> - if a dual-stack MN only connects to IPv6-enabled servers (like an IPv=
6-only that consumes no public IPv4 address space at all), it doesn't consu=
me any public-IPv4 address space.
>>> - It has a NET10 IPv4 address, which gives access to a NAT44, but never=
 uses it.
>>>
>>> In summary, that is *dual-stack deployments* that must be "encouraged" =
today.
>>> In my understanding, this is the current IETF stand, and should remain =
so until more experience is gained.
>>
>> Disagree.
>
> Thanks for the debate then, hopefully constructive.
>

yes, always.

>> =A0Any solution that is dependent on IPv4 is not easily
>> achievable for a larger network operator. Large mobile operators do
>> not have enough private or public space to operate the networks they
>> have now.
>
>> Overlapping spacing introduces several challenges,
>> especially in an IMS environment.
>
> Agreed.
> However, like 6rd permits to easily offer native IPv6 on IPv4-only infras=
tructures (see RFC 5569), the same principle reversed permits to offer publ=
ic IPv4 (with restricted port sets) on IPv6-only infrastructures.
>

As others have pointed out, changes to requirement or technology on
handsets is highly discouraged. So, yet another protocol will not gain
much support unless the value is substantially better than what is
provided today. Furthermore, the IPv6 need is now a pressing
operational and business continuity issue.

>
>> Dual-stack also cost 2x the price
>> in pre-release 8 networks (per PDP pricing...)
>
> It doesn't need to.
>

Renegotiating vendor contracts of that magnitude is above my pay grade :)

But regardless, of how you pay for capacity, 2x the PDP session will
result in 2x the hardware since you will be doing 2x the signalling
and 2x the mobility events within the mobility core.


>> The IETF-3GPP joint meeting recognized this is supporting the
>> IPv6-only + v6v4 interworking model
>>
>> http://www.3gpp.org/ftp/workshop/2010-03-01_IPv4-to-IPv6_with-IETF/Docs/=
IPW100060.zip
>
> Thanks for the reference.
> It's indeed useful to know.
>
>> Dual-stack would have been great if this were 2005, but the dual-stack
>> ship has sailed. =A0It's too late.
>
> Maybe if mobile operators have already made up their mind.
> I believe however that many operational problems if IPv6-only is proposed=
 with NAT64s are still overlooked.
> In particular:
> - The Port-Control Protocol that is under study in Softwire and considere=
d for NAT64s is an example of additional complexity that has to be consider=
ed.

I have seen it cited that roughly 50% of mobile operators do NAT44
today.  My network does NAT44 today, so NAT64 is not an additional
complexity for me since the function and resulting quality of
experience is similar to NAT44. In fact, since NAT64 does not have to
be "on path", i can leverage the DNS64 to drive more effective load
balancing and high availability schemes.

> - If hosts cannot always distinguish whether IPv6 addresses of remote hos=
ts are IPv6 end-to-end or are subject to NAT64 translations, the effect is =
in my understanding still hard to predict.
>

Like above, assuming that your only option is NAT44 (with BOGON or
multiple instances of 10/8 on the inside) for IPv4 and that NAT64 is a
similar quality of experience to NAT44, i believe it is unlikely a
subscriber will be materially impacted. There are indeed cases where
NAT64 and IPv6-only don't work perfect with today's standards, but
what Rajeev is suggesting with on-demand IPv4 may help with that.


>
>> The easiest path forward is IPv6-only
>> given that devices are always, =A0the only IPv4 space available is BOGON
>> or overlapped with SBCs and complicated internal NATs, communication
>> is any to any, connected devices grow exponentially,
>
> (I didn't get the meaning of this sentence.)
>

Sorry, i rushed this last email between meetings and did not do a good
job editing.

My point is that for a mobile operator that does NAT44 today,
IPv6-only with NAT64 is the simplest path forward.  This is because:

1.  More and more devices are alway-on.  Before, handsets would only
have IP address when you go to a web site or actively transfer data.
Now, handsets are always connected to mobile network and always
transmitting data on your location, sycn your email and contacts,
register with SIP / IMS ...  This is a big change for the dimensioning
of the network.

2.  Mobile operators have deployed both BOGON and overlapping IP
address space, both are bad and substantially limit peer to peer (e2e)
communication.  In case of BOGON, the operator needs to change IP
address space periodically as the space they are using is claimed by
its rightful owner.  That is a risk to be managed.  In the re-using IP
address space case, any mobile to mobile communication (voice, video,
p2p) must go through some device that can disambiguate the addresses
based on location and state, like a SIP B2BUA or Session Border
Controller.  This is costly and complicated to operate.

3.  Users are increasingly communicating end to end  IMS / SIP services.

4.  As everyone know, mobile subscribers are growing very quickly

All of the above make the case that work-arounds with IPv4 are poor
investments.  The smart money is being spent to bring IPv6 primary
services in quickly since the pay back time on the investment is as
long as you use IPv6, not the life of a NAT444 CGN or other
infrastructure.  Any technology that has a lead time of 18 months to
develop and other 2 years to tune in production cannot meet the
investments requirements since they will be obsolete too soon.   As we
agree, IPv6 content will be here very soon.


>> and major content
>> is going IPv6 in the next year (Google is there now, others are on
>> their way). =A0I predict by this time next year i have AAAA for over 50%
>> of the bandwidth my customers use.
>
> That's certainly a good expectation, which I share to a good extent (I us=
e native IPv6 in my home-office, deployed by Free since December 2007).
>
>> On a personal note, for the last 2 months i have been IPv6-only with
>> NAT64 on my 3G mobile (work and persona) devices for the last 2 months
>> with not negative impacts.
>
> That's good indeed (although of course it doesn't prove that others, with=
 different terminals and/or applications, would also be fully satisfied wit=
h IPv6-only)
>

IPv4-only service won't go away any time soon.  IPv6-only will be
specific handsets and services that will certainly be regression
tested to make sure the user experience is acceptable.  For people
where IPv6-only + NAT64 works, we should encourage them to use it.
For people that it does not work, we can have products / services for
that too.


> Regards,
> RD
>
>
>
>
>>
>> Cameron
>>
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> RD
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> -Rajeev
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org on behalf of R=E9mi Despr=E9s
>>>> Sent: Fri 4/16/2010 6:55 AM
>>>> To: Fred Baker
>>>> Cc: IPv6 Operations
>>>> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for =A0draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobi=
le-networks-02
>>>>
>>>> Hi Fred,
>>>>
>>>> The informational part of the draft very clear and IMHO extremely valu=
able.
>>>> Like Mohamed, I therefore support, like Mohamed in particular, that it=
 can become an "informational" WG document.
>>>>
>>>> As far as the proposal that "an LTE deployment may be IPv6-only" is co=
ncerned (sec. 3.3), it is more than informational (which BTW is consistent =
with the Standards Track intended status of the current draft).
>>>> It could therefore IMHO be part of another draft, but should not be in=
cluded in the informational WG document.
>>>>
>>>> (About this particular proposal, I rather think that LTE mobile access=
 networks should be all made dual stack, for some undetermined time, while =
those of previous generation should continue to evolve so as to become all =
dual stack.)
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> RD
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 02:08, Fred Baker a =E9crit :
>>>>
>>>>> I would like feedback from the working group. Rajeev would like to ma=
ke this a working group document. Is there support?
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:04 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hello folks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience =
for this
>>>>>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a us=
eful
>>>>>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>>>>>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protoc=
ol work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I ha=
ve
>>>>>> addressed.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> -Rajeev
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>>>>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>>>>>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>>>>>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>>>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>>>>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt ha=
s been
>>>>>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF repos=
itory.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Filename: =A0draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>>>>>> Revision: =A002
>>>>>> Title: =A0 Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>>>>>> Creation_date: =A02010-04-14
>>>>>> WG ID: =A0 Independent Submission
>>>>>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Abstract:
>>>>>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>>>>>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses. =A0IPv6 is widely see=
n
>>>>>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>>>>>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks. =A0This docume=
nt
>>>>>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>>>>>> networks. =A0Hence, this document can be a useful reference for serv=
ice
>>>>>> providers and network designers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 11:27:09 2010
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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:26:45 -0700
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Rajeev Koodli 
To: jouni korhonen 
CC: 
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Hi Jouni,

Thanks fo ryour input.


On 4/16/10 7:27 AM, "jouni korhonen"  wrote:

> 
>    (typically a /64) at the time of connection establishment, and an
>    IPv4 address is assigned only on-demand (e.g., when an application
>    binds to an IPv4 socket interface).  This is feasible on the same
>    (dual-stack) PDN in LTE networks (with short DHCP lease times), or
>    with on-demand IPv4 PDNs.  On-demand IPv4 PDN and address management
>    can be effective in conserving IPv4 addresses; however, such a
>    management could have some implications to how the PDN and addresses
>    are managed at the MN.
> 
> Does the on-demand IPv4 PDN management here imply establishing and tearing
> down IPv4 PDN connections based on the IPv4 use?

Not necessarily. This is typically based on session (PDN/PDP) timers on the
network side. 

> If so, how does the stack
> figure out when to tear down the IPv4 PDN connection? Such dynamic IPv4 PDN
> connection handling probably has somewhat undesired signaling load effect
> against the core network.

The MN does not have to do any signaling.

> 
> Regarding delayed IPv4 address management. I have my concerns on "split UE"
> cases, where the host OS runs DS stack and the  3G/4G terminal acts as a
> modem. How would the (DHCP-based) delayed address management work in that case
> without modifying the host OS stack? Typically the host OS stack would try to
> configure the IPv4 address also immediately.. of course one can do tricks on
> the driver level and fake addresses toward the host OS but..

As you know, Deferred Address Allocation is specified in 3GPP.
The above is an issue for Deferred Address Allocation procedure for split-UE
case in 3GPP. AFAIK, there has been no discussion of the split-UE case
addressing. Are you aware of anything, specifically how Deferred Address
Allocation would be used in split-UE case?

Separately, I wonder how prevalent is/will-be the UE-as-a-modem model..

> 
> IMHO the draft should discuss side effects and constrains in more detail
> related to the on-demand IPv4 PDN connection and address management before
> suggesting them as a general guideline.

I would be glad to add more text, based on the WG discussion and consensus.

Before I do that, I would like to know whether there is interest in having
this as a WG document :-)

Regards,

-Rajeev



> 
> - Jouni
> 
> On Apr 16, 2010, at 1:04 AM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Hello folks,
>> 
>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience for this
>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a useful
>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol work.
>> 
>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
>> addressed. 
>> 
>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>> 
>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> -Rajeev
>> 
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------ Forwarded Message
>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>> 
>> 
>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has been
>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF repository.
>> 
>> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>> Revision:  02
>> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
>> WG ID:   Independent Submission
>> Number_of_pages: 15
>> 
>> Abstract:
>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
>> providers and network designers.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The IETF Secretariat.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>> 
>> 
> 



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 13:10:32 2010
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References:  
Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:05:17 -0700 (PDT)
From: Behcet Sarikaya 
Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya 
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
To: Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations 
In-Reply-To: 
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Hi Fred,=0A=A0 This draft is not a v6ops draft. Is it possible to take it a=
s WG draft? It is submitted to 6man, I think.=0A=0ARegards,=0A=0ABehcet=0A=
=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message ----=0A> From: Fred Baker =
=0A> To: IPv6 Operations =0A> Sent: Thu, April 15, 2010=
 7:08:52 PM=0A> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6=
-in-mobile-networks-02=0A> =0A> I would like feedback from the working grou=
p. Rajeev would like to make this a =0A> working group document. Is there s=
upport?=0A=0AOn Apr 15, 2010, at 3:04 PM, =0A> Rajeev Koodli wrote:=0A=0A> =
=0A> Hello folks,=0A> =0A> I was =0A> asked at the Anaheim meeting to clari=
fy the intended audience for this=0A> =0A> ID, which I have done in the Int=
roduction; this document can be a useful=0A> =0A> reference for service pro=
viders and network designers.=0A> This ID does not =0A> propose any new pro=
tocols or suggest any new protocol work.=0A> =0A> I =0A> also got a good re=
view from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have=0A> =0A> addressed. =0A>=
 =0A> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is =0A> useful.=0A> =
=0A> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?=0A> =0A> =0A> Thanks,=0A> =0A> -Rajeev=
=0A> =0A> =0A> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-netwo=
rks-02=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> ------ Forwarded Message=0A> From: IETF I-D =
=0A> Submission Tool <> href=3D"mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org">idsubmission@=
ietf.org>=0A> Date: =0A> Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)=0A> To: Raje=
ev Koodli <> ymailto=3D"mailto:rkoodli@cisco.com" =0A> href=3D"mailto:rkood=
li@cisco.com">rkoodli@cisco.com>=0A> Subject: New =0A> Version Notification=
 for=0A> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> A new v=
ersion of I-D, =0A> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has been=0A=
> successfully =0A> submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF repos=
itory.=0A> =0A> =0A> Filename:=A0 draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks=0A> =
Revision:=A0 =0A> 02=0A> Title:=A0 Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 =
=0A> Deployment=0A> Creation_date:=A0 2010-04-14=0A> WG ID:=A0 =0A> Indepen=
dent Submission=0A> Number_of_pages: 15=0A> =0A> =0A> Abstract:=0A> Mobile =
Internet access from smartphones and other mobile =0A> devices is=0A> accel=
erating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.=A0 IPv6 is =0A> widely seen=0A> a=
s crucial for the continued operation and growth of the =0A> Internet,=0A> =
and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.=A0 =0A> This document=
=0A> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in =0A> mobile=0A>=
 networks.=A0 Hence, this document can be a useful reference =0A> for servi=
ce=0A> providers and network designers.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> The IETF Se=
cretariat.=0A> =0A> =0A> =0A> ------ End of =0A> Forwarded Message=0A> =0A>=
 =0A> =0A=0Ahttp://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF=0A=0A=0A      


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 13:19:47 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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From: Fred Baker 
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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:16:05 -0700
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To: Behcet Sarikaya 
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All things are possible. The question is what the right thing to do is. =
Speaking for myself, this seems like a better fit to v6ops than 6man, as =
it talks about operational deployment of IPv6 rather than maintenance of =
IPv6 itself. That said, I'm looking for a supporting consensus. What I =
read so far today suggests that there is sufficient consensus. If anyone =
disagrees, that's important for me to know.

On Apr 16, 2010, at 1:05 PM, Behcet Sarikaya wrote:

> Hi Fred,
>   This draft is not a v6ops draft. Is it possible to take it as WG =
draft? It is submitted to 6man, I think.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Behcet
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Fred Baker 
>> To: IPv6 Operations 
>> Sent: Thu, April 15, 2010 7:08:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for =
draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>=20
>> I would like feedback from the working group. Rajeev would like to =
make this a=20
>> working group document. Is there support?
>=20
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:04 PM,=20
>> Rajeev Koodli wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> Hello folks,
>>=20
>> I was=20
>> asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience for =
this
>>=20
>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a =
useful
>>=20
>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>> This ID does not=20
>> propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol work.
>>=20
>> I=20
>> also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
>>=20
>> addressed.=20
>>=20
>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is=20
>> useful.
>>=20
>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> -Rajeev
>>=20
>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------ Forwarded Message
>> From: IETF I-D=20
>> Submission Tool <> =
href=3D"mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org">idsubmission@ietf.org>
>> Date:=20
>> Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>> To: Rajeev Koodli <> ymailto=3D"mailto:rkoodli@cisco.com"=20
>> href=3D"mailto:rkoodli@cisco.com">rkoodli@cisco.com>
>> Subject: New=20
>> Version Notification for
>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> A new version of I-D,=20
>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has been
>> successfully=20
>> submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF repository.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>> Revision: =20
>> 02
>> Title:  Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6=20
>> Deployment
>> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
>> WG ID: =20
>> Independent Submission
>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>=20
>>=20
>> Abstract:
>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile=20
>> devices is
>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is=20
>> widely seen
>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the=20
>> Internet,
>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks. =20
>> This document
>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in=20
>> mobile
>> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference=20
>> for service
>> providers and network designers.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------ End of=20
>> Forwarded Message
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
>=20
>=20
>=20

http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 13:34:56 2010
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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:32:36 -0700 (PDT)
From: Behcet Sarikaya 
Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya 
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
To: Fred Baker 
Cc: IPv6 Operations 
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----- Original Message ----
> From: Fred Baker 
> To: Behcet Sarikaya 
> Cc: IPv6 Operations 
> Sent: Fri, April 16, 2010 3:16:05 PM
> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
> 
> All things are possible. The question is what the right thing to do is. Speaking 
> for myself, this seems like a better fit to v6ops than 6man, as it talks about 
> operational deployment of IPv6 rather than maintenance of IPv6 itself. That 
> said, I'm looking for a supporting consensus. What I read so far today suggests 
> that there is sufficient consensus. 

Another point: I hear people agreeing on this draft as informational. However the draft itself is going for standards track.

There is disagreement right there.



Regards,

Behcet


      


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 13:36:56 2010
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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:37:39 -0700
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Rajeev Koodli 
To: Behcet Sarikaya , Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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Hi Behcet,

This draft is intended for v6ops. It was not submitted to 6man or
discussed/presented there.

The absence of 'v6ops' moniker was a slip when I submitted 00 version, and =
I
have not added it to reflect the version changes (00->02).

At the top left corner of the ID template, you will see "v6ops Working
Group" from version 00 onwards..

Regards,

-Rajeev



On 4/16/10 1:05 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya"  wrote:

> Hi Fred,
> =A0 This draft is not a v6ops draft. Is it possible to take it as WG draft?=
 It
> is submitted to 6man, I think.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Behcet
>=20
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Fred Baker 
>> To: IPv6 Operations 
>> Sent: Thu, April 15, 2010 7:08:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for
>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>=20
>> I would like feedback from the working group. Rajeev would like to make =
this
>> a=20
>> working group document. Is there support?
>=20
> On Apr 15, 2010, at 3:04 PM,
>> Rajeev Koodli wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> Hello folks,
>>=20
>> I was=20
>> asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience for this
>>=20
>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a useful
>>=20
>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>> This ID does not
>> propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol work.
>>=20
>> I=20
>> also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
>>=20
>> addressed.=20
>>=20
>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is
>> useful.
>>=20
>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>=20
>>=20
>> Thanks,
>>=20
>> -Rajeev
>>=20
>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------ Forwarded Message
>> From: IETF I-D=20
>> Submission Tool <> href=3D"mailto:idsubmission@ietf.org">idsubmission@ietf=
.org>
>> Date:=20
>> Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>> To: Rajeev Koodli <> ymailto=3D"mailto:rkoodli@cisco.com"
>> href=3D"mailto:rkoodli@cisco.com">rkoodli@cisco.com>
>> Subject: New=20
>> Version Notification for
>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> A new version of I-D,
>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has been
>> successfully=20
>> submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF repository.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Filename:=A0 draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>> Revision:=A0=20
>> 02
>> Title:=A0 Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6
>> Deployment
>> Creation_date:=A0 2010-04-14
>> WG ID:=A0=20
>> Independent Submission
>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>=20
>>=20
>> Abstract:
>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile
>> devices is
>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.=A0 IPv6 is
>> widely seen
>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the
>> Internet,
>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.=A0
>> This document
>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in
>> mobile
>> networks.=A0 Hence, this document can be a useful reference
>> for service
>> providers and network designers.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> ------ End of=20
>> Forwarded Message
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 13:40:40 2010
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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 13:40:15 -0700
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Rajeev Koodli 
To: Behcet Sarikaya , Fred Baker 
CC: IPv6 Operations 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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I pointed out earlier that it is Informational (I did not change the type in
xml2rfc template), and that Standards Track is an error.
Please see previous versions.

Thanks,

-Rajeev



On 4/16/10 1:32 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya"  wrote:

> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----- Original Message ----
>> From: Fred Baker 
>> To: Behcet Sarikaya 
>> Cc: IPv6 Operations 
>> Sent: Fri, April 16, 2010 3:16:05 PM
>> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for
>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>> 
>> All things are possible. The question is what the right thing to do is.
>> Speaking 
>> for myself, this seems like a better fit to v6ops than 6man, as it talks
>> about 
>> operational deployment of IPv6 rather than maintenance of IPv6 itself. That
>> said, I'm looking for a supporting consensus. What I read so far today
>> suggests 
>> that there is sufficient consensus.
> 
> Another point: I hear people agreeing on this draft as informational. However
> the draft itself is going for standards track.
> 
> There is disagreement right there.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Behcet
> 
> 
>       
> 



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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 14:42:07 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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OK, Rajeev:

Please refile this as draft-ietf-v6ops-v6-in-mobile-networks, and tell =
the secretariat that it replaces draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks

When you do, please make sure it is marked as informational.

Let's move the discussion to something more substantive.

Fred=


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 14:51:32 2010
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Date: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 14:51:36 -0700
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Rajeev Koodli 
To: Fred Baker 
CC: IPv6 Operations 
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Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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OK, will do.

Thanks everyone for the interest. Look forward to the discussions.

-Rajeev



On 4/16/10 2:24 PM, "Fred Baker"  wrote:

> OK, Rajeev:
> 
> Please refile this as draft-ietf-v6ops-v6-in-mobile-networks, and tell the
> secretariat that it replaces draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
> 
> When you do, please make sure it is marked as informational.
> 
> Let's move the discussion to something more substantive.
> 
> Fred



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From v6ops-archive@megatron.ietf.org  Fri Apr 16 21:04:41 2010
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sat Apr 17 00:41:04 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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=20
Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 20:19, Cameron Byrne a =E9crit :

> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 10:30 AM, R=E9mi Despr=E9s =
 wrote:
>>=20
>> ... like 6rd permits to easily offer native IPv6 on IPv4-only =
infrastructures (see RFC 5569), the same principle reversed permits to =
offer public IPv4 (with restricted port sets) on IPv6-only =
infrastructures.
>>=20
>=20
> As others have pointed out, changes to requirement or technology on
> handsets is highly discouraged.

Solving unsolved problems with incrementally deployable new technologies =
remains a good way to make progress.

Reversed 6rd (or "4rd", as Satoru Matsushima privately suggested to call =
it) is something handsets MAY support to get improved service, =
introducing no restriction to other handsets (or PCs or whatever hosts =
use LTE access):
- If they don't support 4rd, they depend on DNS64 and NAT64 to reach =
IPv4-only remote hosts.
- If they do support 4rd, they get public IPv4 addresses =
(port-restricted), statelessly derived from their IPv6 addresses. They =
can use them to reach IPv4-only remote hosts with e2e transparency (no =
dependence on a DNS64 and a NAT64).

If you have read RFC 5569 which shows native IPv6 has been offered in =
2007 across an IPv4-only infrastructure, with a trivially simple =
mechanisms, you may guess how simple in can be to offer public IPv4 =
addresses (port restricted) across IPv6-only infrastructures, e.g. LTE =
access networks.

So far, "4rd" is described only in sections 3.2 and 2.6 of =
draft-despres-softwire-sam-00, but indirectly (and without the name).
I plan to have a specific draft on "4rd" for IETF 78.
Your reactions to it will be most welcome.=20


> ... regardless, of how you pay for capacity, 2x the PDP session will
> result in 2x the hardware since you will be doing 2x the signalling
> and 2x the mobility events within the mobility core.

Not with 4rd.=20
(IPv4 packets are encapsulated in IPv6 packets, which are transmitted =
using their PDP session.) =20

> ... My point is that for a mobile operator that does NAT44 today,
> IPv6-only with NAT64 is the simplest path forward.  This is because:
>=20
> 1.  More and more devices are alway-on.  Before, handsets would only
> have IP address when you go to a web site or actively transfer data.
> Now, handsets are always connected to mobile network and always
> transmitting data on your location, sycn your email and contacts,
> register with SIP / IMS ...  This is a big change for the dimensioning
> of the network.
>=20
> 2.  Mobile operators have deployed both BOGON and overlapping IP
> address space, both are bad and substantially limit peer to peer (e2e)
> communication.  In case of BOGON, the operator needs to change IP
> address space periodically as the space they are using is claimed by
> its rightful owner.  That is a risk to be managed.  In the re-using IP
> address space case, any mobile to mobile communication (voice, video,
> p2p) must go through some device that can disambiguate the addresses
> based on location and state, like a SIP B2BUA or Session Border
> Controller.  This is costly and complicated to operate.
>=20
> 3.  Users are increasingly communicating end to end  IMS / SIP =
services.
>=20
> 4.  As everyone know, mobile subscribers are growing very quickly

With 4rd, the port-restricted IPv4 address derived from an IPv6 address =
is as stable as the IPv6 address.

Note that if an operator restricts to 256 ports the assignment each =
handset gets for its IPv4 connections, this multiplies the number of =
hosts it supports with a given IPv4 address space by 256. (And 256 ports =
is much much more than the handset will need for IPv4 when most of the =
traffic becomes end-to-end IPv6.)

> All of the above make the case that work-arounds with IPv4 are poor
> investments. =20

DNS64 and NAT64 ARE "work-araounds".
Their advantage is to be almost completely specified, but their drawback =
is to have complex and hard to predict consequences.=20
By adding 4rd in handsets (a stateless function), they can get during =
the v4/v6 coexistence period, a cleaner and safer service from operators =
that support 4rd (border relays that, unlike NAT64s, operate statelessly =
at the transport layer).

> The smart money is being spent to bring IPv6 primary
> services in quickly since the pay back time on the investment is as
> long as you use IPv6, not the life of a NAT444 CGN or other
> infrastructure.  Any technology that has a lead time of 18 months to
> develop and other 2 years to tune in production cannot meet the
> investments requirements since they will be obsolete too soon.   As we
> agree, IPv6 content will be here very soon.

We also agree that the v4/v6 coexistence period won't be finished in 18 =
months ;-).
IMHO, offering better service to upgraded handsets for this coexistence =
period, and this at extremely low cost, still makes sense.

> IPv4-only service won't go away any time soon.  IPv6-only will be
> specific handsets and services that will certainly be regression
> tested to make sure the user experience is acceptable.  For people
> where IPv6-only + NAT64 works, we should encourage them to use it.

It seems to me you plan more to "force" them to use it than to =
"encourage" them.
Now, if the handset acts as a small router with an integrated NAT44 (as =
at least some Nokia handset do today), it will have to support a NAT46 =
which will be cascaded with NAT64s. With 4rd, it the NAT44 needs only to =
work with restricted port sets.


> For people that it does not work, we can have products / services for
> that too.

Without any upgrade in handsets?


It might be easier to pursue this discussion when a better description =
of the 4rd proposal is available.

Kind regards,
RD




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sat Apr 17 02:59:42 2010
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Message-Id: 
To: "Wojciech Dec (wdec)" 
cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Philip Homburg 
References: Your message of "Thu, 15 Apr 2010 20:02:52 +0200 ."    
In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:49:18 +0200 ."  
Date: Sat, 17 Apr 2010 11:53:29 +0200
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In your letter dated Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:49:18 +0200 you wrote:
>Which node needs the link local address of the CPE? The edge router or
>the access node? (using draft-krishnan-6man-rs-mark-03 terminology)
>
>Woj> Likely both: The edge router is expected to have an address binding
>table per CPE and so may the access-node.

Maybe I'm missing something. I would expect the edge router to maintain a
mapping from prefix to vlan. It can then use normal neighbor discovery to
find the mac address for a CPE.

The access node is mostly a bridge. But it may have to filter on mac address
(and prohibit direct CPE-to-CPE communication) to increase security a bit.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sat Apr 17 03:00:34 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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To: Rajeev Koodli 
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Hi Rajeev,

Thanks for your clarifications. I have few more comments inline.


On Apr 16, 2010, at 9:26 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:

>=20
> Hi Jouni,
>=20
> Thanks fo ryour input.
>=20
>=20
> On 4/16/10 7:27 AM, "jouni korhonen"  wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>>   (typically a /64) at the time of connection establishment, and an
>>   IPv4 address is assigned only on-demand (e.g., when an application
>>   binds to an IPv4 socket interface).  This is feasible on the same
>>   (dual-stack) PDN in LTE networks (with short DHCP lease times), or
>>   with on-demand IPv4 PDNs.  On-demand IPv4 PDN and address =
management
>>   can be effective in conserving IPv4 addresses; however, such a
>>   management could have some implications to how the PDN and =
addresses
>>   are managed at the MN.
>>=20
>> Does the on-demand IPv4 PDN management here imply establishing and =
tearing
>> down IPv4 PDN connections based on the IPv4 use?
>=20
> Not necessarily. This is typically based on session (PDN/PDP) timers =
on the
> network side.=20

We have seen mobiles trying to be too clever here as well (not for =
preserving IPv4 addresses but battery). However, the outcome will be =
more or less the same if the document encourages establishing and =
tearing down connections "in a clever way".=20

>=20
>> If so, how does the stack
>> figure out when to tear down the IPv4 PDN connection? Such dynamic =
IPv4 PDN
>> connection handling probably has somewhat undesired signaling load =
effect
>> against the core network.
>=20
> The MN does not have to do any signaling.

I am not concerned about MN doing IP layer signaling, that's peanuts. I =
am worried about the signaling caused by the MN playing around with the =
PDN connection that is then seen between core network nodes as signaling =
bursts. This is an issue especially with pre-LTE stuff, which seems to =
be the part that would actually get affected by recommendation of =
on-demand IPV4 connection management.. Even if the draft targets for the =
LTE, majority of the networks will be mix of 3G and LTE for a long time. =
Some text explaining pros and cons/side effects would actually be all =
that is needed.


>>=20
>> Regarding delayed IPv4 address management. I have my concerns on =
"split UE"
>> cases, where the host OS runs DS stack and the  3G/4G terminal acts =
as a
>> modem. How would the (DHCP-based) delayed address management work in =
that case
>> without modifying the host OS stack? Typically the host OS stack =
would try to
>> configure the IPv4 address also immediately.. of course one can do =
tricks on
>> the driver level and fake addresses toward the host OS but..
>=20
> As you know, Deferred Address Allocation is specified in 3GPP.
> The above is an issue for Deferred Address Allocation procedure for =
split-UE
> case in 3GPP. AFAIK, there has been no discussion of the split-UE case
> addressing. Are you aware of anything, specifically how Deferred =
Address
> Allocation would be used in split-UE case?

Not really.. that's why this document could/should actually make a clear =
distinction which of the recommended models/approaches apply where.=20


>=20
> Separately, I wonder how prevalent is/will-be the UE-as-a-modem =
model..

As for data volumes that will probably be the dominant. Also, notebooks =
with cellular broadband access seem to be and become increasingly =
popular..

- Jouni

>=20
>>=20
>> IMHO the draft should discuss side effects and constrains in more =
detail
>> related to the on-demand IPv4 PDN connection and address management =
before
>> suggesting them as a general guideline.
>=20
> I would be glad to add more text, based on the WG discussion and =
consensus.
>=20
> Before I do that, I would like to know whether there is interest in =
having
> this as a WG document :-)
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> -Rajeev
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>> - Jouni
>>=20
>> On Apr 16, 2010, at 1:04 AM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:
>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Hello folks,
>>>=20
>>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience =
for this
>>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a =
useful
>>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new =
protocol work.
>>>=20
>>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I =
have
>>> addressed.=20
>>>=20
>>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>>=20
>>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>>=20
>>> Thanks,
>>>=20
>>> -Rajeev
>>>=20
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt =
has been
>>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF =
repository.
>>>=20
>>> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>>> Revision:  02
>>> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>>> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
>>> WG ID:   Independent Submission
>>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>>=20
>>> Abstract:
>>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
>>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
>>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>>> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for =
service
>>> providers and network designers.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>=20



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From v6ops-archive@ietf.org  Sat Apr 17 06:23:16 2010
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From uttlefishday@ietf.org  Sat Apr 17 09:48:07 2010
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To: 
Subject: We are searching for partners in United States
From: Karla Thomason 
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Speech of welcome



I work as a manager at a large company.

Our company is engaged in different areas of activity, such as:
 
- consulting services
- bank accounts opening and maintenance 
- private undertaking services
- etc.



We have vacancies to be filled by United Statesan residents only:

- salary $2.500 + bonus

- part-time employment

- optimal timetable 



If you are interested in this job, please, send us your contact information: Karla@us-leader-web.net

Name:
Surname:
Country:
E-mail:
Mobile phone-number:
 





Attention! We need just the people residing in United States.



Please, write your name and Telephone Number so that our manager could contact you and conduct an interview.

From trade-archive@lists.ietf.org  Sat Apr 17 11:24:00 2010
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To: 
Subject: We are making a regional managers' team in United States now
From: Vonda Saldana 
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Hello



I represent a large international company where I work as a manager of its personnel recruitment department.

Our company takes an active part in the life of its subsidiaries, for example:
 
- companies setting-up
- companies winding-up
- opening accounts in United States
- etc.



We are making a regional managers' team in United States now:

- payment $2300+bonus

- underemployment

- optimal timetable 



If our offer is interesting for you email us the required information: Vonda@us-leader-web.net

Name:
Surname:
Country:
City:
E-mail:
Telephone Number:
Mobile phone-number:
 





Attention! We are looking for the people who have a right to work in United States!



Please mention your name and write the phone number. Our manager will contact you to fix an  interview.

From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sun Apr 18 13:52:55 2010
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From: 
To: , 
Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 22:44:29 +0200
Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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Hi Rajeev,

I'm saying having DHCP for deferred address allocation is quite a host chan=
ge:
1) a host has to support DHCP for 3GPP access at first place
2) a host has to support deferred DHCP for 3GPP access (reserve/release on-=
demand)
3) a host has to support negotiation of used address allocation mechanism f=
or 3GPP access:
3a) A host will have to ask if DHCP is used for this particular PDN connect=
ion
3b) If DHCP is not used, host shall get the address from bearer signaling i=
nstead

Also in LTE the DHCP is optional for both host and network.

So what I'm also saying is that it is not so straightforward to use IPv4 on=
-demand with DHCP as I think the draft is implying (but maybe it is just my=
 view), which is a concern for feasibility of this approach (recall how in =
3GPP discussions getting transition mechanism changes to hosts was consider=
ed so hard).

This DHCPv4 on-demand sound for me quite like a host based transition mecha=
nisms (DSTM without encapsulation?).

Furthermore, to gain real benefits a significant host population should sup=
port this, and it may or may not be a challenge depending on LTE deployment=
 schedules and speed.

Best regards,

Teemu

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Koodli, Rajeev [mailto:rkoodli@cisco.com]
> Sent: 16. huhtikuuta 2010 20:53
> To: Savolainen Teemu (Nokia-D/Tampere); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-
> networks-02
>=20
>=20
> Hi Teemu,
>=20
> thanks for the input.
>=20
> Agree to your point about adding IPv6 features and not IPv4.
> However, the description of DHCP-based addressing is for LTE, not 3G.
> And the description is about having DHCP as a mechanism to manage the
> available IPv4 addressing pool.
> Are you saying that it should not be available or should not be used?
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> -Rajeev
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----Original Message-----
> From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]
> Sent: Fri 4/16/2010 2:25 AM
> To: Koodli, Rajeev; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-
> networks-02
>=20
> Hi Rajeev, all,
>=20
> I'm worried about the on-demand DHCP based address allocation
> descriptions herein.
>=20
> Majority of 3GPP devices do not implement DHCP at all today for 3GPP
> access, because it is optional and gives very little when compared to
> mandatory PPP-like address allocation during bearer establishment
> procedures.
>=20
> Introduction of DHCP for significant host population (to get
> statistical savings) just for the deferred IPv4 address allocation
> feature does not sound right thing to do for me.
>=20
> We should be adding IPv6 features to hosts, not IPv4 features.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Teemu
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> > Behalf Of ext Rajeev Koodli
> > Sent: 16. huhtikuuta 2010 01:05
> > To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> > Subject: FW: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-
> mobile-
> > networks-02
> >
> >
> > Hello folks,
> >
> > I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience
> for
> > this
> > ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a
> > useful
> > reference for service providers and network designers.
> > This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new
> protocol
> > work.
> >
> > I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I
> have
> > addressed.
> >
> > It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
> >
> > So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > -Rajeev
> >
> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
> >
> >
> >
> > ------ Forwarded Message
> > From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
> > Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
> > To: Rajeev Koodli 
> > Subject: New Version Notification for
> > draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
> >
> >
> > A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has
> > been
> > successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF
> > repository.
> >
> > Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
> > Revision:  02
> > Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
> > Creation_date:  2010-04-14
> > WG ID:   Independent Submission
> > Number_of_pages: 15
> >
> > Abstract:
> > Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
> > accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
> > as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
> > and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
> > discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
> > networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
> > providers and network designers.
> >
> >
> >
> > The IETF Secretariat.
> >
> >
> >
> > ------ End of Forwarded Message
> >
>=20



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sun Apr 18 13:53:01 2010
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From: 
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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 22:41:33 +0200
Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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> have now.  Overlapping spacing introduces several challenges,
> especially in an IMS environment.  Dual-stack also cost 2x the price
> in pre-release 8 networks (per PDP pricing...)

Shouldn't applications that have issues with overlapping addresses go direc=
tly to IPv6? Especially IMS?

Then, should the possible vendor pricing models really affect technology se=
lections in SDOs? After the discussions in 3GPP last winter I got the impre=
ssion that cost of PDP contexts is not a factor when choosing transition me=
chanisms. In fact, I was told by several people that GTP tunnels are so che=
ap that we should not look for anything more complex than that - and I thou=
ght that was the case until these discussions started again:)

Now, if the cost of PDP contexts really would be an issue and rather signif=
icant host changes in LTE timeframe would be allowed (as seems to be the ca=
se here..) then why not go for single hop IPv4-in-IPv6 tunnel from UE to PD=
N-GW - maybe flavored with DSTM kind of dynamic IPv4 address allocation (de=
ferred address allocation) or maybe even with AFTR at the PDN GW.=20

IPv4v6 bearer type would not be needed, IPv6 type would suffice.

Traffic filtering & QoS & DPI thingies could happen before IPv4 is encapsul=
ated to IPv6 and right after IPv4 has been decapsulated.

MTU is not really an issue, 1500 has been difficult to have anyway due netw=
ork fragmentation avoidance (i.e. at least some hosts have been using less-=
than-1500 MTU to avoid fragmentation of GTP tunnels).

Extra header overhead for bulk traffic is relatively small and RoHC can squ=
eeze away also the tunnel headers of VoIP traffic.

But all-in all, I think the discussions concluded that native dual-stack, w=
ith moving as many apps to IPv6 as possible, and network providing (possibl=
y overlapping) IPv4 addresses to hosts, was seen as the best way forward.

I think the draft, now that it is WG draft, should reflect the conclusions =
that have been already achieved and not restart transition mechanism select=
ion discussions...=20

Best regards,

Teemu


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sun Apr 18 13:53:06 2010
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Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2010 22:44:30 +0200
Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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> As I mentioned in a previous email, Deferred IP address allocation is
> specified for use in LTE. If 3G handsets do not do DHCP, it does not
> mean LTE handsets should not, right?

DHCP is optional in Release-8.=20

Handsets have managed to work in 3GPP access for a decade or so without DHC=
P based address allocation (GPRS, EGPRS, WCDMA, HSDPA..). Why they would wa=
nt to implement DHCP for LTE?

Best regards,

Teemu



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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Cameron Byrne 
To: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com
Cc: remi.despres@free.fr, rkoodli@cisco.com, fred@cisco.com,  v6ops@ops.ietf.org
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> I think the draft, now that it is WG draft, should reflect the conclusions that have been already achieved and not restart transition mechanism selection discussions...
>

When you say conclusion, you mean the conclusion from the 3GPP-IETF
meeting in San Francisco?  Which is dual-stack AND IPv6-only as
solutions?  Lets make sure the drafts currently being developed
reflect that to the best extent possible.  The San Francisco meeting
was very meaningful for me since it was the first time the larger
community began to grasp the notion that IPv6-only is feasible and
real.

Regarding cost per PDP, i have told the list how it is in my case, 2x
the cost for 3GPP dual-stack.  Look at it from a pricing contract
perspective or signalling load on core elements, the result is 2x the
PDP is 2x the cost.  I am not sure who you are talking to or what the
context is when you say PDP is cheap, but we all know smartphone are
overwhelming signalling load these days, especially PDP setup and
tear-down (battery saving technique).  Some service providers pay for
ALL of their infrastructure in the packet core based on PDP numbers,
just as they pay for all their circuit switched infrastructure based
on busy hour call attempts.  Sometimes it is a simple PDP license fee
mix ($5 per PDP per quarter) with capital purchases ($10 million per
GGSN kit).  There are many variation, but i am not aware of any SP
that would say 2x PDP is acceptable without 2x the revenue.  I 100%
assure you the cost per PDP is NOT trivial, and the increased
signalling from 2x the PDP attach and 2x the mobility events will be
substantial. Especially considering the revenue per byte is eroding,
service providers are very adverse to changes that drive up costs.  If
another network operator posts to the list and says they have a
different cost structure and contract where PDP is trivial (in
contract, in signalling, in capacity ...), great lets here from them
directly as another data point.

Ii am not interested in any new methods (DS-lite ...), they have their
place, but it is not appealing to the mobile scenario (handset impact)
and their time to market is variable.  As mentioned, i really don't
need any new technology to make my own path work.  IPv6-only works
today with NAT64/DNS64, we demonstrated to the IETF-3GPP in San
Francisco and our friendly user trial is growing as IPv6-only,
products are planned for IPv6-only.  What Rajeev adds makes things
clearer and defines a possible path for covering some corner cases.

Also, very important, Rajeev does state that the IPv6-only path exists
and is viable, which is something none of the other drafts on 3G/4G
IPv6 do to a meaningful extent.  This is a shame considering the
results of the San Francisco meeting.  The impression i get is that
most of the drafts see IPv6-only as a niche for M2M and not the
general Internet access case.  In saying that IPv6-only should be
encouraged, Rajeev is faithfully reflecting the 3GPP-IETF community's
official San Francisco meeting summary as well as championing the need
for service providers and vendors to aggressively pursue the urgent
need for IPv6 as a mainstream network protocol.

I am starting to feel like this thread is becoming an echo chamber
with the same people saying the same things.

Cameron


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sun Apr 18 21:04:38 2010
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On 4/16/2010 6:15 AM, Cameron Byrne wrote:
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:25 AM,  wrote:
>> Hi Rajeev, all,
>>
>> I'm worried about the on-demand DHCP based address allocation descriptions herein.
>>
>> Majority of 3GPP devices do not implement DHCP at all today for 3GPP access, because it is optional and gives very little when compared to mandatory PPP-like address allocation during bearer establishment procedures.
>>
>> Introduction of DHCP for significant host population (to get statistical savings) just for the deferred IPv4 address allocation feature does not sound right thing to do for me.
>>
>> We should be adding IPv6 features to hosts, not IPv4 features.
>>
>
> Teemu, many handsets have DHCP for  the WiFi.  I agree with you in
> principle somewhat (many transition steps add IPv4 functions), but i
> believe the reality makes your point moot in many relevant cases.  I
> strongly feel the transient on-demand IPv4 connection that  Rajeev has
> suggested is very useful in IPv4 constrained environments that require
> always-on connectivity (IMS ...).  I believe the on-demand IPv4
> address can help address the IPv4 literal issue that is described in
> draft-wing-behave-http-ip-address-literals, similar to a
> dial-on-demand function... the handset always has a path to IPv4, but
> the PDP is only setup when a packet needs to be transmitted.

What happens when the device actually requires that the ipv4 databearer 
be in use all the time? Insofar as I have experience that case is not 
particularly rare, and likely to get less so rather than more.

Given that the ipv4 problem described in 3.1 and 3.2 exists today and is 
addressed using existing techniques there doesn't seem to be that much 
to solve really for the v4 case. certainly nothing that I'd want to 
design new software for handsets and mngs to address.

> Prior to release 7, i believe this is easy to control (give back ipv4
> quickly) since we can configure the handset to terminate idle IPv4 PDP
> quickly while the IPv6 is always up.  Once to release 8 and we have
> dual-stack bearers, i am not sure the best way to address the
> on-demand use of a transient IPv4 address.
>
> Would you suggest the EPS bearer be re-established / re-negotiated to
> deliver the IPv4 and IPv6 addresses over PCO- IE?  Is it possible to
> send / request PCO-IE without dropping the original EPS bearer?
>
> Cameron
>
> ps.  This type of discussion is why the WG should accept this draft
>
>
>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Teemu
>>
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of ext Rajeev Koodli
>>> Sent: 16. huhtikuuta 2010 01:05
>>> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>>> Subject: FW: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-
>>> networks-02
>>>
>>>
>>> Hello folks,
>>>
>>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience for
>>> this
>>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a
>>> useful
>>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol
>>> work.
>>>
>>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
>>> addressed.
>>>
>>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>>
>>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> -Rajeev
>>>
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool
>>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>>> To: Rajeev Koodli
>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>
>>>
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has
>>> been
>>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF
>>> repository.
>>>
>>> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>>> Revision:  02
>>> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>>> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
>>> WG ID:   Independent Submission
>>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>>
>>> Abstract:
>>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
>>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
>>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>>> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
>>> providers and network designers.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>



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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Cameron Byrne 
To: joel jaeggli 
Cc: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com, rkoodli@cisco.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org
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On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 8:58 PM, joel jaeggli  wrote:
> On 4/16/2010 6:15 AM, Cameron Byrne wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 2:25 AM, =A0wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Rajeev, all,
>>>
>>> I'm worried about the on-demand DHCP based address allocation
>>> descriptions herein.
>>>
>>> Majority of 3GPP devices do not implement DHCP at all today for 3GPP
>>> access, because it is optional and gives very little when compared to
>>> mandatory PPP-like address allocation during bearer establishment
>>> procedures.
>>>
>>> Introduction of DHCP for significant host population (to get statistica=
l
>>> savings) just for the deferred IPv4 address allocation feature does not
>>> sound right thing to do for me.
>>>
>>> We should be adding IPv6 features to hosts, not IPv4 features.
>>>
>>
>> Teemu, many handsets have DHCP for =A0the WiFi. =A0I agree with you in
>> principle somewhat (many transition steps add IPv4 functions), but i
>> believe the reality makes your point moot in many relevant cases. =A0I
>> strongly feel the transient on-demand IPv4 connection that =A0Rajeev has
>> suggested is very useful in IPv4 constrained environments that require
>> always-on connectivity (IMS ...). =A0I believe the on-demand IPv4
>> address can help address the IPv4 literal issue that is described in
>> draft-wing-behave-http-ip-address-literals, similar to a
>> dial-on-demand function... the handset always has a path to IPv4, but
>> the PDP is only setup when a packet needs to be transmitted.
>
> What happens when the device actually requires that the ipv4 databearer b=
e
> in use all the time? Insofar as I have experience that case is not
> particularly rare, and likely to get less so rather than more.
>

I strongly believe in Occum's Razor.  If an IPv4 data bearer is
"required", then it is required and should be established.  If a
"service" to a subscriber can be designed where applications are IP
version agnostic (Symbian is a good example, i have not found anything
IP version specific yet in Ovi), the case should NOT be that an IPv4
bearer is required.  The only thing required is the bearer that
enables the communication to be established.  A relevant example that
Rajeev cites is the roaming scenario, where an IPv6-only service in
the home network now needs to be an IPv4-only service in the visited
network that only supports IPv4 PDP type (no dual-stack service here
either, just v4).  Keep in mind, the handset is alway dual-stack
capable, but the service can be defined as one bearer at a time
depending on if the user is roaming or not, or perhaps 2 bearers if
the user "requires" a transient IPv4 bearer to deal with an IPv4
literal or a legacy IPv4-only applications.  If the service the
customer needs is IPv4 alway-on, then the customer should buy an IPv4
service.  IPv4 services will not go away any time soon.

If the application and OS are IP version agnostic AND there is a
suitable protocol translation scheme like DNS64/NAT64 AND there is
legitimate reason to believe that a substantial amount of content will
become available via IPv6, then it just might make sense to encourage
IPv6-only (the better term is IPv6-primary) deployments.

Thanks,
Cameron

> Given that the ipv4 problem described in 3.1 and 3.2 exists today and is
> addressed using existing techniques there doesn't seem to be that much to
> solve really for the v4 case. certainly nothing that I'd want to design n=
ew
> software for handsets and mngs to address.
>
>> Prior to release 7, i believe this is easy to control (give back ipv4
>> quickly) since we can configure the handset to terminate idle IPv4 PDP
>> quickly while the IPv6 is always up. =A0Once to release 8 and we have
>> dual-stack bearers, i am not sure the best way to address the
>> on-demand use of a transient IPv4 address.
>>
>> Would you suggest the EPS bearer be re-established / re-negotiated to
>> deliver the IPv4 and IPv6 addresses over PCO- IE? =A0Is it possible to
>> send / request PCO-IE without dropping the original EPS bearer?
>>
>> Cameron
>>
>> ps. =A0This type of discussion is why the WG should accept this draft
>>
>>
>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Teemu
>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
>>>> Behalf Of ext Rajeev Koodli
>>>> Sent: 16. huhtikuuta 2010 01:05
>>>> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>>>> Subject: FW: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-
>>>> networks-02
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hello folks,
>>>>
>>>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience fo=
r
>>>> this
>>>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a
>>>> useful
>>>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>>>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol
>>>> work.
>>>>
>>>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
>>>> addressed.
>>>>
>>>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>>>
>>>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks,
>>>>
>>>> -Rajeev
>>>>
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool
>>>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> To: Rajeev Koodli
>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has
>>>> been
>>>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF
>>>> repository.
>>>>
>>>> Filename: =A0draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>>>> Revision: =A002
>>>> Title: =A0 Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>>>> Creation_date: =A02010-04-14
>>>> WG ID: =A0 Independent Submission
>>>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>>>
>>>> Abstract:
>>>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>>>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses. =A0IPv6 is widely seen
>>>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>>>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks. =A0This document
>>>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>>>> networks. =A0Hence, this document can be a useful reference for servic=
e
>>>> providers and network designers.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>


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Yes, that meeting and discussion before that. The host based transition mec=
hanisms were rejected because transition was agreed to be more easily done =
by networks than by all hosts - and hosts were discussed to have dual-stack=
 connectivity or IPv6-only connectivity. I agree these discussions sound ec=
hoing, they are, but for me it seems there is interest to restart this disc=
ussion again as the draft that, from my point of view, talks about host bas=
ed transition mechanism called "DHCPv4 on-demand", was adopted...

In my opinion the draft can mention it is possible to build such IPv4 addre=
ss on demand system, but for it to be really useful it would have to be sup=
ported by wide variety of hosts, and that is not at all certain because as =
said many times, DHCP is optional to implement on 3GPP access. Therefore, I=
'm not at all certain this sentence is really valid in wide-scale:
--
Finally, operators can make IPv6 as the default for always-on mobile connec=
tions, and use IPv4 (private) addressing only on-demand.
--

The parallel IPv4 and IPv6 bearer usage should anyhow be transitional phase=
 until the whole network supports IPv4v6 type of bearer. Then with IPv4v6 y=
our cost structure *relating to PDN connections* should be similar to just =
having IPv6?=20

Best regards,

Teemu

> -----Original Message-----
> From: ext Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com]
> Sent: 19. huhtikuuta 2010 02:26
> To: Savolainen Teemu (Nokia-D/Tampere)
> Cc: remi.despres@free.fr; rkoodli@cisco.com; fred@cisco.com;
> v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-
> networks-02
>=20
> > I think the draft, now that it is WG draft, should reflect the
> conclusions that have been already achieved and not restart transition
> mechanism selection discussions...
> >
>=20
> When you say conclusion, you mean the conclusion from the 3GPP-IETF
> meeting in San Francisco?  Which is dual-stack AND IPv6-only as
> solutions?  Lets make sure the drafts currently being developed
> reflect that to the best extent possible.  The San Francisco meeting
> was very meaningful for me since it was the first time the larger
> community began to grasp the notion that IPv6-only is feasible and
> real.
>=20
> Regarding cost per PDP, i have told the list how it is in my case, 2x
> the cost for 3GPP dual-stack.  Look at it from a pricing contract
> perspective or signalling load on core elements, the result is 2x the
> PDP is 2x the cost.  I am not sure who you are talking to or what the
> context is when you say PDP is cheap, but we all know smartphone are
> overwhelming signalling load these days, especially PDP setup and
> tear-down (battery saving technique).  Some service providers pay for
> ALL of their infrastructure in the packet core based on PDP numbers,
> just as they pay for all their circuit switched infrastructure based
> on busy hour call attempts.  Sometimes it is a simple PDP license fee
> mix ($5 per PDP per quarter) with capital purchases ($10 million per
> GGSN kit).  There are many variation, but i am not aware of any SP
> that would say 2x PDP is acceptable without 2x the revenue.  I 100%
> assure you the cost per PDP is NOT trivial, and the increased
> signalling from 2x the PDP attach and 2x the mobility events will be
> substantial. Especially considering the revenue per byte is eroding,
> service providers are very adverse to changes that drive up costs.  If
> another network operator posts to the list and says they have a
> different cost structure and contract where PDP is trivial (in
> contract, in signalling, in capacity ...), great lets here from them
> directly as another data point.
>=20
> Ii am not interested in any new methods (DS-lite ...), they have their
> place, but it is not appealing to the mobile scenario (handset impact)
> and their time to market is variable.  As mentioned, i really don't
> need any new technology to make my own path work.  IPv6-only works
> today with NAT64/DNS64, we demonstrated to the IETF-3GPP in San
> Francisco and our friendly user trial is growing as IPv6-only,
> products are planned for IPv6-only.  What Rajeev adds makes things
> clearer and defines a possible path for covering some corner cases.
>=20
> Also, very important, Rajeev does state that the IPv6-only path exists
> and is viable, which is something none of the other drafts on 3G/4G
> IPv6 do to a meaningful extent.  This is a shame considering the
> results of the San Francisco meeting.  The impression i get is that
> most of the drafts see IPv6-only as a niche for M2M and not the
> general Internet access case.  In saying that IPv6-only should be
> encouraged, Rajeev is faithfully reflecting the 3GPP-IETF community's
> official San Francisco meeting summary as well as championing the need
> for service providers and vendors to aggressively pursue the urgent
> need for IPv6 as a mainstream network protocol.
>=20
> I am starting to feel like this thread is becoming an echo chamber
> with the same people saying the same things.
>=20
> Cameron


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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 12:31:18 -0400
Subject: Re: FYI:  DNSOPS presentation
From: Jason Livingood 
To: IPv6 Operations 
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Thread-Topic: FYI:  DNSOPS presentation
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This thread seems to have died out (on dnsops as well).  But I will note
that it appears to be on the agenda at the upcoming ISOC IPv6 workshop (from
16:30 - 18:00 - see
https://www.isoc.org/isoc/conferences/registration/index.php?id=7ce20e4c88b7
e328).  It is also addressed in a short whitepaper some colleagues and I put
together in advance of that meeting (available at
http://www.comcast6.net/IPv6_DNS_Whitelisting_Concerns_20100416.pdf)

Jason


On 4/2/10 3:17 PM, "Jason Livingood" 
wrote:

> I agree with what James just posted.
> 
> Since this has hopped over to v6ops from dnsops, I thought I'd post here what
> I wrote over there, as I think it's important as we're working on solutions
> w/o a clear agreement on the problem:
> 
> It seems that have the cart before the horse, so to speak.  IMHO, we need to
> do the following (and there's no reason they cannot occur rapidly):
> 
> 1 - Develop a clear problem statement that outlines (1) how "broken" users
> are defined and (2) what effects this "brokenness" has on these end users
> (or other parts of the Internet).
> 
> 2 - Describe all the various methods and tactics by which end user
> "brokenness" can be detected.  This may include website-based detection,
> DNS-query-based detection, or a variety of other methods.
> 
> 3 - Then, after we have agreement on Problem Definition and Problem
> Detection, we can measure the problem to understand what the scope or scale
> of the problem is.
> 
> 4 - After we understand Problem Definition, Problem Detection, and Problem
> Scope, then you can arrive at possible solutions.  Seems like in this case
> we sort of *started* here, which concerns me and I think we need to be
> careful that discussion thus far does not constrain development of a full
> list of Solution Options.  I further believe we will need to encourage the
> pursuit of multiple solutions simultaneously.  Lastly, just because end user
> software upgrades may be difficult doesn't mean we shouldn't do them and
> shouldn't focus just as much energy on those than other options.
> 
> Jason




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 10:09:17 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 18:45, Koodli, Rajeev a =E9crit :

> The ID states that the IETF dual-stack model is readily applicable in =
mobile networks, and that's the likely deployment model for a majority =
of mobile providers today.=20

"Likely", yes, but not "recommended" as IPv6-only in the text as is.=20
>=20
> Towards the end of Section 3.1:
>=20
> " In other words, the IETF's dual-stack model
>   of separate IPv6 and IPv4 networks is readily applicable to mobile
>   networks with the support for distinct APNs and the ability to carry
>   IPv6 traffic on PDP/PDN connections."
>=20
> And in Section 4:
>=20
> "The IETF dual-stack model [RFC4213] can be applied to the mobile =
networks readily."
>=20
> Your input on dual-stack applies here (specifically Section 3.1).
>=20
> Separately, IPv6-only deployments may be relatively few, but need to =
be looked into.

"Looked into", I do agree, but not prematurely "recommended".

Among problems I see, one is IMHO very important:
- E2E transparency is a key feature that IPv6 restores.
- If DNS64-NAT64 synthesizes IPv6 addresses that hosts don't distinguish =
today from real IPv6 addresses, this destroys the IPv6 guarantee of e2e =
transparency.

In my understanding, until all concerned applications do recognize =
IPv4-embeded IPv6 addresses from real ones, DNS64-NAT64 will be harmful =
to IPv6, and should be advised against.

Dual-stack deployments (with NAT44 CGNs and guaranteed IPv6 e2e =
transparency), offer on the other hand a clean IPv6 service that =
IPv6-only deployments with DNS64-NAT64 can't offer.


> In IPv6-only deployments, there can be no IPv4 connectivity (PDN/PDP) =
at all.  Please see more below.

In sec 3.3, you have (asterisks added):
   " Hence a service provider may
   choose to enforce IPv6-only PDN and address assignment for their own
   subscribers in their Home Networks, see Figure 1.  This is feasible
   for the newer MNs when the provider's network is "IPv6-ready", which
   means the network is able to provide IPv6-only PDN support *and
  IPv6 - IPv4 interworking*  for Internet access."

I therefore understood the considered "IPv6-only" networks as having =
DNS64-NAT64s (not as having no IPv4 connectivity at all).=20

> ...
> I could reword the last sentence to: "For instance, if an LTE =
deployment is IPv6-only, a roamed 3G UMTS network may not offer IPv6 =
connectivity"

Isn't it true that the lack of IPv6 connectivity of some 3G UMTS =
networks is independent from whether LTE networks are dual-standard or =
not?


> ...
>>> In summary, that is *dual-stack deployments* that must be =
"encouraged" today.
>=20
> Sure, dual-stack is not only encouraged but the *recommended* model. =
This is captured in the ID (as I mentioned above):
>=20
> " In other words, the IETF's dual-stack model
>   of separate IPv6 and IPv4 networks is readily applicable to mobile
>   networks with the support for distinct APNs and the ability to carry
>   IPv6 traffic on PDP/PDN connections."
>=20
>>> In my understanding, this is the current IETF stand, and should =
remain so until more experience is gained.
>=20
> Dual-stack is the recommended model.

Making it very clear will then be an improvement (IMHO).=20

> "In summary, IPv6-only deployments should be encouraged while =
considering the roaming and applications issues"

I still can't agree on this because:
- The market of real IPv6-ony is too limited.
- IPv6-only + DNS64-NAT64 is harmful to IPv6 e2e transparency.
- With simple additions in LTE MNs port-restricted public IPv4 addresses =
can be made available across IPv6-only access networks, which reconciles =
IPv6 e2e transparency and IPv4 connectivity with an IPv6-only routing =
plan in LTE access networks. (About this, see also what I answered to =
Cameron Byrne in =
http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2010/msg00609.html).

IMHO, if your draft can be a great informational document if relieved of =
general "encouragements" to deploy IPv6-only (at least as long as it =
implicitly goes with DNS64-NAT64), and if noting the conflict between =
IPv6 e2e transparency and DNS64-NAT64.

Best Regards,
RD



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 10:09:47 2010
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Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 19:05, Simon Perreault a =E9crit :

> On 2010-04-16 12:02, Cameron Byrne wrote:
>>> In summary, that is *dual-stack deployments* that must be =
"encouraged" today.
>>=20
>> Disagree.
>=20
> Dual-stack deployment, as encouraged by the IETF, didn't mean =
IPv6+NAT44.
>=20
> In my opinion, IPv6+NAT64 is less evil than IPv6+NAT44.

Different view here.
See in particular my answer to Rajeev.

Regards,
RD


>=20
> Simon
> --=20
> NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca
> STUN/TURN server        --> http://numb.viagenie.ca
> vCard 4.0               --> http://www.vcarddav.org



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 10:31:21 2010
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Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 20:05, Fred Baker a =E9crit :

> I'll refer you to =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-arkko-ipv6-transition-guidelines
>  "Guidelines for Using IPv6 Transition Mechanisms", Jari Arkko, Fred
>  Baker, 24-Feb-10
>=20
> While it is not itself a consensus document (I'd like to make it one, =
but that's another discussion), I believe that it represents the current =
IETF consensus.

As I said in Anaheim, adding some reference to 6rd to this draft would =
IMHO make it an even better document:
- The draft says:"This document discusses the IPv6 deployment models and =
migration tools, and recommends ones that have been found to work well =
in many common   situations."
- The first large scale IPv6 deployment based on 6rd was operational in =
december 2007 (ref RFC 5569), and has worked satisfactorily since then.
- As Google has seen, it has led to the largest native IPv6 use in =
2008-2009.=20

Regards,
RD




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On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 10:02 AM, R=E9mi Despr=E9s  w=
rote:
>
> Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 18:45, Koodli, Rajeev a =E9crit :
>
>> The ID states that the IETF dual-stack model is readily applicable in mo=
bile networks, and that's the likely deployment model for a majority of mob=
ile providers today.
>
> "Likely", yes, but not "recommended" as IPv6-only in the text as is.
>>
>> Towards the end of Section 3.1:
>>
>> " In other words, the IETF's dual-stack model
>> =A0 of separate IPv6 and IPv4 networks is readily applicable to mobile
>> =A0 networks with the support for distinct APNs and the ability to carry
>> =A0 IPv6 traffic on PDP/PDN connections."
>>
>> And in Section 4:
>>
>> "The IETF dual-stack model [RFC4213] can be applied to the mobile networ=
ks readily."
>>
>> Your input on dual-stack applies here (specifically Section 3.1).
>>
>> Separately, IPv6-only deployments may be relatively few, but need to be =
looked into.
>
> "Looked into", I do agree, but not prematurely "recommended".
>
> Among problems I see, one is IMHO very important:
> - E2E transparency is a key feature that IPv6 restores.
> - If DNS64-NAT64 synthesizes IPv6 addresses that hosts don't distinguish =
today from real IPv6 addresses, this destroys the IPv6 guarantee of e2e tra=
nsparency.
>
> In my understanding, until all concerned applications do recognize IPv4-e=
mbeded IPv6 addresses from real ones, DNS64-NAT64 will be harmful to IPv6, =
and should be advised against.
>
> Dual-stack deployments (with NAT44 CGNs and guaranteed IPv6 e2e transpare=
ncy), offer on the other hand a clean IPv6 service that IPv6-only deploymen=
ts with DNS64-NAT64 can't offer.
>
>
>> In IPv6-only deployments, there can be no IPv4 connectivity (PDN/PDP) at=
 all. =A0Please see more below.
>
> In sec 3.3, you have (asterisks added):
> =A0 " Hence a service provider may
> =A0 choose to enforce IPv6-only PDN and address assignment for their own
> =A0 subscribers in their Home Networks, see Figure 1. =A0This is feasible
> =A0 for the newer MNs when the provider's network is "IPv6-ready", which
> =A0 means the network is able to provide IPv6-only PDN support *and
> =A0IPv6 - IPv4 interworking* =A0for Internet access."
>
> I therefore understood the considered "IPv6-only" networks as having DNS6=
4-NAT64s (not as having no IPv4 connectivity at all).
>
>> ...
>> I could reword the last sentence to: "For instance, if an LTE deployment=
 is IPv6-only, a roamed 3G UMTS network may not offer IPv6 connectivity"
>
> Isn't it true that the lack of IPv6 connectivity of some 3G UMTS networks=
 is independent from whether LTE networks are dual-standard or not?
>
>
>> ...
>>>> In summary, that is *dual-stack deployments* that must be "encouraged"=
 today.
>>
>> Sure, dual-stack is not only encouraged but the *recommended* model. Thi=
s is captured in the ID (as I mentioned above):
>>
>> " In other words, the IETF's dual-stack model
>> =A0 of separate IPv6 and IPv4 networks is readily applicable to mobile
>> =A0 networks with the support for distinct APNs and the ability to carry
>> =A0 IPv6 traffic on PDP/PDN connections."
>>
>>>> In my understanding, this is the current IETF stand, and should remain=
 so until more experience is gained.
>>
>> Dual-stack is the recommended model.
>
> Making it very clear will then be an improvement (IMHO).
>
>> "In summary, IPv6-only deployments should be encouraged while considerin=
g the roaming and applications issues"
>
> I still can't agree on this because:
> - The market of real IPv6-ony is too limited.
> - IPv6-only + DNS64-NAT64 is harmful to IPv6 e2e transparency.


Why must IPv6 be pure? There is no precedent for IPv6 by nature of its
structure being pure or meaning E2E transparency. NAT-PT has been
around in the IPv6 ecosystem for a long time, so IPv6 addresses
representing IPv4 destinations is by no means new.  I agree that IPv6
is the path to E2E transparency, but IPv6 does not imply e2e by virtue
of the technology. IMHO IPv6-only expedites that journey to e2e.


> - With simple additions in LTE MNs port-restricted public IPv4 addresses =
can be made available across IPv6-only access networks, which reconciles IP=
v6 e2e transparency and IPv4 connectivity with an IPv6-only routing plan in=
 LTE access networks. (About this, see also what I answered to Cameron Byrn=
e in http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2010/msg00609.html).
>
> IMHO, if your draft can be a great informational document if relieved of =
general "encouragements" to deploy IPv6-only (at least as long as it implic=
itly goes with DNS64-NAT64), and if noting the conflict between IPv6 e2e tr=
ansparency and DNS64-NAT64.
>
> Best Regards,
> RD
>
>


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 10:52:21 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
References:   <4903E4F9-C0EB-429C-8494-11341F1A219C@free.fr> <4D35478224365146822AE9E3AD4A266609382D52@exchtewks3.starentnetworks.com> <9C4F240C-0BA2-4091-9F5D-226485464C33@free.fr> <4D35478224365146822AE9E3AD4A266609382D53@exchtewks3.starentnetworks.com> <0BEC5D3B-3E09-4F76-A239-302C1AB211F7@free.fr>
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On 2010-04-19 13:02, Rémi Després wrote:
> - If DNS64-NAT64 synthesizes
> IPv6 addresses that hosts don't distinguish today from real IPv6
> addresses, this destroys the IPv6 guarantee of e2e transparency.
>
> In my understanding, until all concerned applications do recognize
> IPv4-embeded IPv6 addresses from real ones, DNS64-NAT64 will be
> harmful to IPv6, and should be advised against.
>
> Dual-stack deployments (with NAT44 CGNs and guaranteed IPv6 e2e
> transparency), offer on the other hand a clean IPv6 service that
> IPv6-only deployments with DNS64-NAT64 can't offer.

In both situations there is a NAT only for IPv4-only services, and 
nowhere else. I fail to see why one would be "cleaner" than the other.

Simon
-- 
NAT64/DNS64 open-source --> http://ecdysis.viagenie.ca
STUN/TURN server        --> http://numb.viagenie.ca
vCard 4.0               --> http://www.vcarddav.org


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 10:52:23 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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On Apr 19, 2010, at 10:30 AM, Cameron Byrne wrote:

>> - If DNS64-NAT64 synthesizes IPv6 addresses that hosts don't =
distinguish today from real IPv6 addresses, this destroys the IPv6 =
guarantee of e2e transparency.

Only for communications that leave the IPv6 domain and are translated to =
IPv4, which already has this problem. If the communication stays within =
the IPv6 domain, whether the two hosts know it or not, they are =
communicating transparently.

http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 10:52:51 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Rajeev Koodli 
To: Jouni 
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Hi Jouni,

>>> Does the on-demand IPv4 PDN management here imply establishing and tearing
>>> down IPv4 PDN connections based on the IPv4 use?
>> 
>> Not necessarily. This is typically based on session (PDN/PDP) timers on the
>> network side. 
> 
> We have seen mobiles trying to be too clever here as well (not for preserving
> IPv4 addresses but battery). However, the outcome will be more or less the
> same if the document encourages establishing and tearing down connections "in
> a clever way". 

The document is not proposing any cleaver ways. This is tied to PDN/PDP
session management. Whether we like it or not, session timers can clean up
state.


>> The MN does not have to do any signaling.
> 
> I am not concerned about MN doing IP layer signaling, that's peanuts. I am
> worried about the signaling caused by the MN playing around with the PDN
> connection that is then seen between core network nodes as signaling bursts.
> This is an issue especially with pre-LTE stuff, which seems to be the part
> that would actually get affected by recommendation of on-demand IPV4
> connection management.. Even if the draft targets for the LTE, majority of the
> networks will be mix of 3G and LTE for a long time. Some text explaining pros
> and cons/side effects would actually be all that is needed.

Could you explain the signaling bursts?

Agree on the comment about LTE and 3G coexistence.

>> 
>> As you know, Deferred Address Allocation is specified in 3GPP.
>> The above is an issue for Deferred Address Allocation procedure for split-UE
>> case in 3GPP. AFAIK, there has been no discussion of the split-UE case
>> addressing. Are you aware of anything, specifically how Deferred Address
>> Allocation would be used in split-UE case?
> 
> Not really.. that's why this document could/should actually make a clear
> distinction which of the recommended models/approaches apply where.

So, the issue here is really about getting some clarity on split-UE in 3GPP,
right? Currently, the document does not differentiate the cases, but I could
some text in the next version.

>> Separately, I wonder how prevalent is/will-be the UE-as-a-modem model..
> 
> As for data volumes that will probably be the dominant. Also, notebooks with
> cellular broadband access seem to be and become increasingly popular..

I would think that dongles, built-in laptop models would be more prevalent..

Thanks,

-Rajeev


> 
> - Jouni
> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> IMHO the draft should discuss side effects and constrains in more detail
>>> related to the on-demand IPv4 PDN connection and address management before
>>> suggesting them as a general guideline.
>> 
>> I would be glad to add more text, based on the WG discussion and consensus.
>> 
>> Before I do that, I would like to know whether there is interest in having
>> this as a WG document :-)
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> -Rajeev
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> 
>>> - Jouni
>>> 
>>> On Apr 16, 2010, at 1:04 AM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:
>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> Hello folks,
>>>> 
>>>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience for
>>>> this
>>>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a useful
>>>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>>>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new protocol
>>>> work.
>>>> 
>>>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I have
>>>> addressed. 
>>>> 
>>>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>>> 
>>>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>>> 
>>>> Thanks,
>>>> 
>>>> -Rajeev
>>>> 
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>>>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>>>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has been
>>>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF repository.
>>>> 
>>>> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>>>> Revision:  02
>>>> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>>>> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
>>>> WG ID:   Independent Submission
>>>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>>> 
>>>> Abstract:
>>>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>>>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
>>>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>>>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
>>>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>>>> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
>>>> providers and network designers.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
> 



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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 11:26:12 -0700
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Rajeev Koodli 
To:  =?ISO-8859-1?B?UultaQ==?= =?ISO-8859-1?B?IERlc3By6XM=?= 
CC: Cameron Byrne , Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations 
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On 4/19/10 10:02 AM, "R=E9mi Despr=E9s"  wrote:

>=20
> Le 16 avr. 2010 =E0 18:45, Koodli, Rajeev a =E9crit :
>=20
>> The ID states that the IETF dual-stack model is readily applicable in mo=
bile
>> networks, and that's the likely deployment model for a majority of mobil=
e
>> providers today.
>=20
> "Likely", yes, but not "recommended" as IPv6-only in the text as is.

I will make it explicit that dual-stack is the IETF recommended model.
However, I do think that IPv6-only deployments in mobile networks need to b=
e
*looked into* and *encouraged*. See below..

>> Separately, IPv6-only deployments may be relatively few, but need to be
>> looked into.
>=20
> "Looked into", I do agree, but not prematurely "recommended".
>=20
> Among problems I see, one is IMHO very important:
> - E2E transparency is a key feature that IPv6 restores.
> - If DNS64-NAT64 synthesizes IPv6 addresses that hosts don't distinguish =
today
> from real IPv6 addresses, this destroys the IPv6 guarantee of e2e
> transparency.
>=20
> In my understanding, until all concerned applications do recognize
> IPv4-embeded IPv6 addresses from real ones, DNS64-NAT64 will be harmful t=
o
> IPv6, and should be advised against.
>=20
> Dual-stack deployments (with NAT44 CGNs and guaranteed IPv6 e2e transpare=
ncy),
> offer on the other hand a clean IPv6 service that IPv6-only deployments w=
ith
> DNS64-NAT64 can't offer.

We are trying to get to IPv6 which offers many things (including e2e
transparency), but we have to face the fact that it is not a clean switch.
Some folks argue that investments in NAT44 would "silo" IPv6 into some
select usage only. Other folks do not wish to have to worry about private
IPv4 addressing at all; this can be argued as an impending acute problem in
mobile networks. Yet another consideration is the need to maintain multiple
PDN/PDP if you do separate IPv6 and IPv4. IPv6-only deployments offer *a*
choice here. Whether it comes with a clean switch is moot. So, there are
tradeoffs.
=20
Having said this, dual-stack is the easier choice for many. The draft BTW i=
s
not preferring one over the other.


> In sec 3.3, you have (asterisks added):
>    " Hence a service provider may
>    choose to enforce IPv6-only PDN and address assignment for their own
>    subscribers in their Home Networks, see Figure 1.  This is feasible
>    for the newer MNs when the provider's network is "IPv6-ready", which
>    means the network is able to provide IPv6-only PDN support *and
>   IPv6 - IPv4 interworking*  for Internet access."
>=20
> I therefore understood the considered "IPv6-only" networks as having
> DNS64-NAT64s (not as having no IPv4 connectivity at all).
>=20

It's both: no IPv4 connectivity, and IPv6 - IPv4 interworking.

Dual-stack deployments do not have either of these.



>> ...
>> I could reword the last sentence to: "For instance, if an LTE deployment=
 is
>> IPv6-only, a roamed 3G UMTS network may not offer IPv6 connectivity"
>=20
> Isn't it true that the lack of IPv6 connectivity of some 3G UMTS networks=
 is
> independent from whether LTE networks are dual-standard or not?
>=20

Yes. However, the point here is that if an LTE deployment chooses to be
IPv6-only, a roamed 3G network may not offer IPv6 connectivity, which means
the home network (that offers IPv6-only service) needs to be able to provid=
e
IPv4 connectivity to such roamed users.


>>=20
>> Dual-stack is the recommended model.
>=20
> Making it very clear will then be an improvement (IMHO).
>=20

Check.



>> "In summary, IPv6-only deployments should be encouraged while considerin=
g the
>> roaming and applications issues"
>=20
> I still can't agree on this because:
> - The market of real IPv6-ony is too limited.

Well, someone has to start. There are arguments on why some want to do
IPv6-only in mobile networks.


> - IPv6-only + DNS64-NAT64 is harmful to IPv6 e2e transparency.

See comments above.

> - With simple additions in LTE MNs port-restricted public IPv4 addresses =
can
> be made available across IPv6-only access networks, which reconciles IPv6=
 e2e
> transparency and IPv4 connectivity with an IPv6-only routing plan in LTE
> access networks. (About this, see also what I answered to Cameron Byrne i=
n
> http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2010/msg00609.html).

I understand. Making changes to MNs is another story. I reckon 3GPP would b=
e
a good place to bring this kind of proposal.

>=20
> IMHO, if your draft can be a great informational document if relieved of
> general "encouragements" to deploy IPv6-only (at least as long as it
> implicitly goes with DNS64-NAT64), and if noting the conflict between IPv=
6 e2e
> transparency and DNS64-NAT64.

Thanks.=20
However, I do believe that there is a case for IPv6-only deployments from a
variety of angles, including - private IPv4 address exhaustion, side effect=
s
of overlapped addresses etc., investments in NAT44, speedier transition to
IPv6 and so on. This does have costs associated with it, as you point out
above.

It may be worthwhile to refer to NAT64+DNS64 considerations to an
appropriate BEHAVE document?

Again, I would point out that the ID is not intending to prefer IPv6-only
over Dual-stack. The latter is the default, the former should be a choice,
at least for some. I will clarify..

Thanks,

-Rajeev
 =20


>=20
> Best Regards,
> RD
>=20



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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 12:14:26 2010
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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 12:11:00 -0700
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Rajeev Koodli 
To: , 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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Hi Teemu,

We need to separate this into what is already specified and what the draft
is saying. This draft is not introducing a host change in the form of DHCP.
3GPP has already included DHCP as a mechanism. Please see below.

On 4/18/10 1:44 PM, "teemu.savolainen@nokia.com"
 wrote:

> Hi Rajeev,
> 
> I'm saying having DHCP for deferred address allocation is quite a host change:
> 1) a host has to support DHCP for 3GPP access at first place

If PGW includes a Deferred Address Allocation PCO in Create Session Response
(and hence no IPv4 address in it), the host has to do DHCP.

> 2) a host has to support deferred DHCP for 3GPP access (reserve/release
> on-demand)

Yes, some hosts do this based on application trigger. OTOH, you could
initiate DHCP right away (after attach) but the network could use shorter
lease times. 

> 3) a host has to support negotiation of used address allocation mechanism for
> 3GPP access:
> 3a) A host will have to ask if DHCP is used for this particular PDN connection
> 3b) If DHCP is not used, host shall get the address from bearer signaling
> instead

Yes. This is part of 3GPP TS 23.401, TS 29.274/5.

> Also in LTE the DHCP is optional for both host and network.

My understanding is that the assignment at attach is default, but PGW may
choose to instead use DHCP.

> 
> So what I'm also saying is that it is not so straightforward to use IPv4
> on-demand with DHCP as I think the draft is implying (but maybe it is just my
> view), which is a concern for feasibility of this approach (recall how in 3GPP
> discussions getting transition mechanism changes to hosts was considered so
> hard).
> 

Let us try to separate the issues here.

1. When DHCP is initiated. 1a) right after attach, 1b) as a response to an
application trigger. Your concern is with 1b) right?

2. Regardless of 1a), 1b), a network could use lease times of its choice
right (subject to pros/cons)?

> This DHCPv4 on-demand sound for me quite like a host based transition
> mechanisms (DSTM without encapsulation?).

Hmm..interesting. Going by this, one could argue that DHCP with shorter
lease times is host based transition, and the network cleaning up PDN/PDP
sessions due to timers is network-based transition :-)
 
> 
> Furthermore, to gain real benefits a significant host population should
> support this, and it may or may not be a challenge depending on LTE deployment
> schedules and speed.
> 

IMO, a mobile network provider may require DHCP from vendors. Not all
providers may go for it, but some may find it useful.

Thanks,

-Rajeev


> Best regards,
> 
> Teemu
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ext Koodli, Rajeev [mailto:rkoodli@cisco.com]
>> Sent: 16. huhtikuuta 2010 20:53
>> To: Savolainen Teemu (Nokia-D/Tampere); v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-
>> networks-02
>> 
>> 
>> Hi Teemu,
>> 
>> thanks for the input.
>> 
>> Agree to your point about adding IPv6 features and not IPv4.
>> However, the description of DHCP-based addressing is for LTE, not 3G.
>> And the description is about having DHCP as a mechanism to manage the
>> available IPv4 addressing pool.
>> Are you saying that it should not be available or should not be used?
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> -Rajeev
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com [mailto:teemu.savolainen@nokia.com]
>> Sent: Fri 4/16/2010 2:25 AM
>> To: Koodli, Rajeev; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>> Subject: RE: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-
>> networks-02
>> 
>> Hi Rajeev, all,
>> 
>> I'm worried about the on-demand DHCP based address allocation
>> descriptions herein.
>> 
>> Majority of 3GPP devices do not implement DHCP at all today for 3GPP
>> access, because it is optional and gives very little when compared to
>> mandatory PPP-like address allocation during bearer establishment
>> procedures.
>> 
>> Introduction of DHCP for significant host population (to get
>> statistical savings) just for the deferred IPv4 address allocation
>> feature does not sound right thing to do for me.
>> 
>> We should be adding IPv6 features to hosts, not IPv4 features.
>> 
>> Best regards,
>> 
>> Teemu
>> 
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
>>> Behalf Of ext Rajeev Koodli
>>> Sent: 16. huhtikuuta 2010 01:05
>>> To: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>>> Subject: FW: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-
>> mobile-
>>> networks-02
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hello folks,
>>> 
>>> I was asked at the Anaheim meeting to clarify the intended audience
>> for
>>> this
>>> ID, which I have done in the Introduction; this document can be a
>>> useful
>>> reference for service providers and network designers.
>>> This ID does not propose any new protocols or suggest any new
>> protocol
>>> work.
>>> 
>>> I also got a good review from Mohamed Boucadier (thanks!) which I
>> have
>>> addressed.
>>> 
>>> It seemed there was good interest that this ID is useful.
>>> 
>>> So, Chairs: how do we proceed?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> -Rajeev
>>> 
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ------ Forwarded Message
>>> From: IETF I-D Submission Tool 
>>> Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 16:30:59 -0700 (PDT)
>>> To: Rajeev Koodli 
>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>> draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
>>> 
>>> 
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt has
>>> been
>>> successfully submitted by Rajeev Koodli and posted to the IETF
>>> repository.
>>> 
>>> Filename:  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks
>>> Revision:  02
>>> Title:   Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment
>>> Creation_date:  2010-04-14
>>> WG ID:   Independent Submission
>>> Number_of_pages: 15
>>> 
>>> Abstract:
>>> Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
>>> accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
>>> as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
>>> and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
>>> discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
>>> networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
>>> providers and network designers.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> The IETF Secretariat.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ------ End of Forwarded Message
>>> 
>> 
> 



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 12:14:44 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078)
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From: jouni korhonen 
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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 22:12:27 +0300
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Hi Rajeev,

One clarification below..

On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:53 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:

[snip]

>=20
>=20
>>> Separately, I wonder how prevalent is/will-be the UE-as-a-modem =
model..
>>=20
>> As for data volumes that will probably be the dominant. Also, =
notebooks with
>> cellular broadband access seem to be and become increasingly =
popular..
>=20
> I would think that dongles, built-in laptop models would be more =
prevalent..

Bad terminology or rather grouping my side. I actually summed =
UE-as-a-modem and build-in stuff as the same (point being that dongles, =
build-in modems and UE-as-a-modem are all used in a similar manner from =
e.g. a laptop point of view).

- Jouni


[sanp]=


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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 12:14:24 -0700 (PDT)
From: Behcet Sarikaya 
Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya 
Subject: Comments on draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt
To: Rajeev Koodli 
Cc: IPv6 Operations 
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Hi Rajeev,=0A=A0 My comments on =0ASection 3.2 NAT Placement in the mobile =
networks=0A=0AThis section nicely narrates the story of GI-DS-Lite as the c=
entralized NAT=A0versus DS-Lite as the distributed DS-Lite. It reads nicely=
 but I found in it too much emphasis on billing and accounting aspects whil=
e it lacks emphasis on other aspects (more=A0meaty? aspects at least as muc=
h as I am interested).=0A=0AFor example, one very important feature of DS-L=
ite is to have an IPv6-only network thus savings on IPv4 addresses. This is=
 not mentioned.=0ANext, why currently mobile operators do not have much int=
erest on DS-Lite is not mentioned.=0A=0AOn the centralized NAT or GI-DS-Lit=
e, firstly, the identification of GI-DS-Lite as the centralized NAT approac=
h is very useful because it was not clear reading the GI-DS-Lite draft. =0A=
=0AHowever, one important aspect of GI-DS-Lite is=A0that it=A0no longer req=
uires an IPv6-only network and therefore no IPv4 address savings which is n=
ot mentioned in the draft.=0A=0ARegards,=0A=0ABehcet=0A=0A=0A      


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 12:24:52 2010
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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 12:21:59 -0700
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Rajeev Koodli 
To: , 
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On 4/19/10 4:07 AM, "teemu.savolainen@nokia.com"
 wrote:

> Yes, that meeting and discussion before that. The host based transition
> mechanisms were rejected because transition was agreed to be more easily done
> by networks than by all hosts - and hosts were discussed to have dual-stack
> connectivity or IPv6-only connectivity. I agree these discussions sound
> echoing, they are, but for me it seems there is interest to restart this
> discussion again as the draft that, from my point of view, talks about host
> based transition mechanism called "DHCPv4 on-demand", was adopted...

Let me assure you that I am *not* interested in restarting a new discussion
on transition mechanisms, that too a *host-based* one! :-)


> 
> In my opinion the draft can mention it is possible to build such IPv4 address
> on demand system, but for it to be really useful it would have to be supported
> by wide variety of hosts, and that is not at all certain because as said many
> times, DHCP is optional to implement on 3GPP access.

Sure, I will add the corresponding text.

> Therefore, I'm not at all
> certain this sentence is really valid in wide-scale:
> --
> Finally, operators can make IPv6 as the default for always-on mobile
> connections, and use IPv4 (private) addressing only on-demand.
> --

Fair enough. I will add additional text as mentioned above.

Thanks,

-Rajeev



> 
> The parallel IPv4 and IPv6 bearer usage should anyhow be transitional phase
> until the whole network supports IPv4v6 type of bearer. Then with IPv4v6 your
> cost structure *relating to PDN connections* should be similar to just having
> IPv6? 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Teemu
> 
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: ext Cameron Byrne [mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com]
>> Sent: 19. huhtikuuta 2010 02:26
>> To: Savolainen Teemu (Nokia-D/Tampere)
>> Cc: remi.despres@free.fr; rkoodli@cisco.com; fred@cisco.com;
>> v6ops@ops.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-
>> networks-02
>> 
>>> I think the draft, now that it is WG draft, should reflect the
>> conclusions that have been already achieved and not restart transition
>> mechanism selection discussions...
>>> 
>> 
>> When you say conclusion, you mean the conclusion from the 3GPP-IETF
>> meeting in San Francisco?  Which is dual-stack AND IPv6-only as
>> solutions?  Lets make sure the drafts currently being developed
>> reflect that to the best extent possible.  The San Francisco meeting
>> was very meaningful for me since it was the first time the larger
>> community began to grasp the notion that IPv6-only is feasible and
>> real.
>> 
>> Regarding cost per PDP, i have told the list how it is in my case, 2x
>> the cost for 3GPP dual-stack.  Look at it from a pricing contract
>> perspective or signalling load on core elements, the result is 2x the
>> PDP is 2x the cost.  I am not sure who you are talking to or what the
>> context is when you say PDP is cheap, but we all know smartphone are
>> overwhelming signalling load these days, especially PDP setup and
>> tear-down (battery saving technique).  Some service providers pay for
>> ALL of their infrastructure in the packet core based on PDP numbers,
>> just as they pay for all their circuit switched infrastructure based
>> on busy hour call attempts.  Sometimes it is a simple PDP license fee
>> mix ($5 per PDP per quarter) with capital purchases ($10 million per
>> GGSN kit).  There are many variation, but i am not aware of any SP
>> that would say 2x PDP is acceptable without 2x the revenue.  I 100%
>> assure you the cost per PDP is NOT trivial, and the increased
>> signalling from 2x the PDP attach and 2x the mobility events will be
>> substantial. Especially considering the revenue per byte is eroding,
>> service providers are very adverse to changes that drive up costs.  If
>> another network operator posts to the list and says they have a
>> different cost structure and contract where PDP is trivial (in
>> contract, in signalling, in capacity ...), great lets here from them
>> directly as another data point.
>> 
>> Ii am not interested in any new methods (DS-lite ...), they have their
>> place, but it is not appealing to the mobile scenario (handset impact)
>> and their time to market is variable.  As mentioned, i really don't
>> need any new technology to make my own path work.  IPv6-only works
>> today with NAT64/DNS64, we demonstrated to the IETF-3GPP in San
>> Francisco and our friendly user trial is growing as IPv6-only,
>> products are planned for IPv6-only.  What Rajeev adds makes things
>> clearer and defines a possible path for covering some corner cases.
>> 
>> Also, very important, Rajeev does state that the IPv6-only path exists
>> and is viable, which is something none of the other drafts on 3G/4G
>> IPv6 do to a meaningful extent.  This is a shame considering the
>> results of the San Francisco meeting.  The impression i get is that
>> most of the drafts see IPv6-only as a niche for M2M and not the
>> general Internet access case.  In saying that IPv6-only should be
>> encouraged, Rajeev is faithfully reflecting the 3GPP-IETF community's
>> official San Francisco meeting summary as well as championing the need
>> for service providers and vendors to aggressively pursue the urgent
>> need for IPv6 as a mainstream network protocol.
>> 
>> I am starting to feel like this thread is becoming an echo chamber
>> with the same people saying the same things.
>> 
>> Cameron



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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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From: jouni korhonen 
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Hi Rajeev,

Thanks again for you answers. Few more comments inline.

On Apr 19, 2010, at 8:53 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:

>=20
> Hi Jouni,
>=20
>>>> Does the on-demand IPv4 PDN management here imply establishing and =
tearing
>>>> down IPv4 PDN connections based on the IPv4 use?
>>>=20
>>> Not necessarily. This is typically based on session (PDN/PDP) timers =
on the
>>> network side.=20
>>=20
>> We have seen mobiles trying to be too clever here as well (not for =
preserving
>> IPv4 addresses but battery). However, the outcome will be more or =
less the
>> same if the document encourages establishing and tearing down =
connections "in
>> a clever way".=20
>=20
> The document is not proposing any cleaver ways. This is tied to =
PDN/PDP
> session management. Whether we like it or not, session timers can =
clean up
> state.

Ok. The draft could actually mention that. Session idle timers =
controlled IPv4 PDP context/PDN connection tearing down from network =
side sounds reasonable.

>>> The MN does not have to do any signaling.
>>=20
>> I am not concerned about MN doing IP layer signaling, that's peanuts. =
I am
>> worried about the signaling caused by the MN playing around with the =
PDN
>> connection that is then seen between core network nodes as signaling =
bursts.
>> This is an issue especially with pre-LTE stuff, which seems to be the =
part
>> that would actually get affected by recommendation of on-demand IPV4
>> connection management.. Even if the draft targets for the LTE, =
majority of the
>> networks will be mix of 3G and LTE for a long time. Some text =
explaining pros
>> and cons/side effects would actually be all that is needed.
>=20
> Could you explain the signaling bursts?

Establishing and tearing down a PDP context/PDN connection is a costly =
operation system wide. You don't want to do that too frequently unless =
you somehow have determined the connection is idle or so (which might be =
somewhat impossible.. considering e.g. how talkative modern OSes are).

Cheers,
	jouni


[snip]=


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Hi Rajeev,

> is saying. This draft is not introducing a host change in the form of
> DHCP.
> 3GPP has already included DHCP as a mechanism. Please see below.

It has, as optional. This draft in my opinion talks like DHCP would be comm=
onplace. See below.

> If PGW includes a Deferred Address Allocation PCO in Create Session
> Response
> (and hence no IPv4 address in it), the host has to do DHCP.

Incorrect. Standard does not allow network to behave that way.

23.401 says:
--
- the UE may indicate that it prefers to obtain an IPv4 address as part of =
the default bearer activation procedure. In such a case, the UE relies on t=
he EPS network to provide IPv4 address to the UE as part of the default bea=
rer activation procedure.
--
Both EPS network elements and UE shall support the following mechanisms:
a. IPv4 address allocation via default bearer activation, if IPv4 is suppor=
ted.
--
Both EPS network elements and UE may support the following mechanisms:
a.	IPv4 address allocation and IPv4 parameter configuration after the attac=
h procedure via DHCPv4 according to RFC 2131 [19] and RFC 4039 [25];
--

Please note the *shall* for both EPS network and UE to support IPv4 address=
 allocation in bearer activation, and *may* for both EPS network and UE to =
support DHCPv4.

Hence as DHCP is optional for UE, network cannot force DHCP usage for UE su=
pporting only the *shall* and that is not indicating support for DHCP, whic=
h is *may*.

This is the specification I read. There are many of those, so please point =
to specification where you read host must do DHCP if network so says.

> > 2) a host has to support deferred DHCP for 3GPP access
> (reserve/release
> > on-demand)
>=20
> Yes, some hosts do this based on application trigger. OTOH, you could
> initiate DHCP right away (after attach) but the network could use
> shorter
> lease times.

Right, some hosts may, but not all. Especially those that don't do DHCP for=
 3GPP.

> > 3) a host has to support negotiation of used address allocation
> mechanism for
> > 3GPP access:
> > 3a) A host will have to ask if DHCP is used for this particular PDN
> connection
> > 3b) If DHCP is not used, host shall get the address from bearer
> signaling
> > instead
>=20
> Yes. This is part of 3GPP TS 23.401, TS 29.274/5.

Yes, but this is *may* per 3GPP TS 23.401. Your draft should be more explic=
it in telling that the percentage of host population that actually implemen=
ts the *may* part is unknown for time being.

> > Also in LTE the DHCP is optional for both host and network.
>=20
> My understanding is that the assignment at attach is default, but PGW
> may choose to instead use DHCP.

Yes if UE indicates optional DHCP support.

> Let us try to separate the issues here.
>=20
> 1. When DHCP is initiated. 1a) right after attach, 1b) as a response to
> an
> application trigger. Your concern is with 1b) right?

Of those two, my concern is 1b.

But the bigger concern is talking so much about DHCP that is optional by st=
andard.
=20
> 2. Regardless of 1a), 1b), a network could use lease times of its
> choice
> right (subject to pros/cons)?

Right. But the lease time is IMHO mostly irrelevant, if the host is stubbor=
n to just renew even if it hasn't applications running. Thus the host would=
 have to be smart enough not to renew if it doesn't have imminent need for =
IPv4.

> Hmm..interesting. Going by this, one could argue that DHCP with shorter
> lease times is host based transition, and the network cleaning up
> PDN/PDP sessions due to timers is network-based transition :-)

As said, DHCP with short lease times and network cleaning PDP sessions does=
 help nothing if the host has decided to keep IPv4 connection up "just in c=
ase", and instantly renews what network tries to bring down. You must have =
host support not to open "just in case".

> IMO, a mobile network provider may require DHCP from vendors. Not all
> providers may go for it, but some may find it useful.

This is absolutely true. However, the standard does not mandate DHCP. Hence=
 the standard documents, like this draft, should be clear on what is certai=
nly available by standards compliant devices (that implements musts and sha=
lls), and what may require something extra (i.e. what is possible by standa=
rd, but not necessarily supported by default - the mays).

Best regards,

Teemu


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 18:50:03 2010
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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 18:45:56 -0700
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Rajeev Koodli 
To: , 
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Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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On 4/19/10 2:24 PM, "teemu.savolainen@nokia.com"
 wrote:

>> If PGW includes a Deferred Address Allocation PCO in Create Session
>> Response
>> (and hence no IPv4 address in it), the host has to do DHCP.
> 
> Incorrect. Standard does not allow network to behave that way.

Agree, I wrote too soon. UE includes a PCO for DHCP which is carried in
Create Session Request.


>> Yes, some hosts do this based on application trigger. OTOH, you could
>> initiate DHCP right away (after attach) but the network could use
>> shorter
>> lease times.
> 
> Right, some hosts may, but not all. Especially those that don't do DHCP for
> 3GPP.
> 

What about the laptops with built-in 3G/4G or using UE as a modem?

> 
> Yes, but this is *may* per 3GPP TS 23.401. Your draft should be more explicit
> in telling that the percentage of host population that actually implements the
> *may* part is unknown for time being.
> 

I would rather say that DHCP is optional but a provider may require it to be
used.


> 
>> Let us try to separate the issues here.
>> 
>> 1. When DHCP is initiated. 1a) right after attach, 1b) as a response to
>> an
>> application trigger. Your concern is with 1b) right?
> 
> Of those two, my concern is 1b.
> 
> But the bigger concern is talking so much about DHCP that is optional by
> standard.
>  

Actually I would have to talk much now (there are just a couple of sentences
currently) :-)

Optional does not mean that it is not used (and vice versa).
In our context here, it is up to a service provider to require it if they
feel there is value in using it for their IPv4 address management.


>> 2. Regardless of 1a), 1b), a network could use lease times of its
>> choice
>> right (subject to pros/cons)?
> 
> Right. But the lease time is IMHO mostly irrelevant, if the host is stubborn
> to just renew even if it hasn't applications running. Thus the host would have
> to be smart enough not to renew if it doesn't have imminent need for IPv4.
> 

Sure, hosts can do clever stuff. Providers may have compliance requirements
if a node is to be on their network OTOH (I am not justifying the approach
itself, but pointing it out).

>> Hmm..interesting. Going by this, one could argue that DHCP with shorter
>> lease times is host based transition, and the network cleaning up
>> PDN/PDP sessions due to timers is network-based transition :-)
> 
> As said, DHCP with short lease times and network cleaning PDP sessions does
> help nothing if the host has decided to keep IPv4 connection up "just in
> case", and instantly renews what network tries to bring down. You must have
> host support not to open "just in case".
> 

See above. In summary, for a significant population of hosts, session timers
may be useful. For "just in case" hosts, this may be less useful.

-Rajeev


>> IMO, a mobile network provider may require DHCP from vendors. Not all
>> providers may go for it, but some may find it useful.
> 
> This is absolutely true. However, the standard does not mandate DHCP. Hence
> the standard documents, like this draft, should be clear on what is certainly
> available by standards compliant devices (that implements musts and shalls),
> and what may require something extra (i.e. what is possible by standard, but
> not necessarily supported by default - the mays).
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Teemu



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 19:58:04 2010
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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 19:54:40 -0700
Subject: Re: Comments on draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt
From: Sri Gundavelli 
To: Behcet Sarikaya 
CC: IPv6 Operations 
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Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt
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Hi Behcet,

Some of your comments below are not much related this draft under
discussion, they are more specific to GI-DS-lite draft. I'd like to respond
to your comments and also suggest you open up a separate discussion thread
on that draft. Couple of clarification points.
=20

> However, one important aspect of GI-DS-Lite is=A0that it=A0no longer requires=
 an
> IPv6-only network and therefore no IPv4 address savings which is not ment=
ioned
> in the draft.

GI-DS-lite is a variant of DS-lite and it does not require either the acces=
s
network or the operator core network to have IPv4 enabled. It can certainly
be applied in operator networks, with IPv6 enabled in the EPC core and in
the operator core (between the gateway and the CGN). However, it can also b=
e
enabled with IPv4 running in one or both of these network segments. The IP
address saving in this context is not from configuring IPv4 on the core
network elements, but the focus is on the end points, that's where the caus=
e
for IPv4 exhaust is.

The key point of the GI-DS-lite is to leverage the existing tunneling
infrastructure in mobile architectures and allow the end points to be
configured with IPv4 overlapping addresses, and by carrying the context
identifiers in the encapsulation headers of the tunneled packets. These
context identifiers provide the needed end-point identity for the network
elements to make the forwarding decisions. This approach has number of
benefits as listed in that document, including the ability to migrate the
operator network to IPv6, still allowing access to IPv4 services and solvin=
g
the IPv4 address exhaust issue.


> Next, why currently mobile operators do not have much interest on DS-Lite=
 is
> not mentioned.
>=20

No, Mobile Operators and broadly the 3GPP community does have interest for
applying a variant of DS-lite based approach to mobile architectures. If yo=
u
have missed any parts of the discussions in San Francisco, or in Shanghai
related to IPv6 migration, you may want to review the summary/recommendatio=
n
slides from that workshop.




Regards
Sri




On 4/19/10 12:14 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya"  wrote:

> Hi Rajeev,
> =A0 My comments on=20
> Section 3.2 NAT Placement in the mobile networks
>=20
> This section nicely narrates the story of GI-DS-Lite as the centralized
> NAT=A0versus DS-Lite as the distributed DS-Lite. It reads nicely but I foun=
d in
> it too much emphasis on billing and accounting aspects while it lacks emp=
hasis
> on other aspects (more=A0meaty? aspects at least as much as I am interested=
).
>=20
> For example, one very important feature of DS-Lite is to have an IPv6-onl=
y
> network thus savings on IPv4 addresses. This is not mentioned.
> Next, why currently mobile operators do not have much interest on DS-Lite=
 is
> not mentioned.
>=20
> On the centralized NAT or GI-DS-Lite, firstly, the identification of
> GI-DS-Lite as the centralized NAT approach is very useful because it was =
not
> clear reading the GI-DS-Lite draft.
>=20
> However, one important aspect of GI-DS-Lite is=A0that it=A0no longer requires=
 an
> IPv6-only network and therefore no IPv4 address savings which is not ment=
ioned
> in the draft.
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Behcet
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 20:13:55 2010
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 11:11:42 +0800
From: Tina TSOU 
Subject: Questions on RFC 4293 Management Information Base for the Internet Protocol (IP)
To: ipv6@ietf.org, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, Bob Hinden , Dan Romascanu , fenner@fenron.com, fenner@gmail.com, dthaler@microsoft.com, brian@innovationslab.net, brian.haberman@jhuapl.edu, sar@iwl.com
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

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Hi all,
In RFC 4293,
- ipAddressTable is described as writable, this table uses address
as index, but the critical information for configuring address, the
address prefix ipAddressPrefix node is read-only. It seems
contradict to me.
This table uses address as index, but the public network and VPN
may have exactly the same IP address. This table does not
explicitly say whether it only supports public network. If
supporting VPN at the same time, there might occur the following
case: only on address is displayed among the same IP addresses.

ipAddressTable OBJECT-TYPE
   SYNTAX     SEQUENCE OF IpAddressEntry
   MAX-ACCESS not-accessible
   STATUS     current
   DESCRIPTION
          "This table contains addressing information relevant to the
           entity's interfaces.
           This table does not contain multicast address information.
           Tables for such information should be contained in multicast
           specific MIBs, such as RFC 3019.
           While this table is writable, the user will note that
           several objects, such as ipAddressOrigin, are not.  The
           intention in allowing a user to write to this table is to
           allow them to add or remove any entry that isn't
           permanent.  The user should be allowed to modify objects
           and entries when that would not cause inconsistencies
           within the table.  Allowing write access to objects, such
           as ipAddressOrigin, could allow a user to insert an entry
           and then label it incorrectly.
ipAddressPrefix OBJECT-TYPE
   SYNTAX     RowPointer
   MAX-ACCESS read-only
   STATUS     current
   DESCRIPTION
          "A pointer to the row in the prefix table to which this
           address belongs.  May be { 0 0 } if there is no such row."
   DEFVAL { zeroDotZero }
   ::= { ipAddressEntry 5 }


B. R.
Tina
http://tinatsou.weebly.com/contact.html

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Hi all,


In RFC 4293,
- ipAddressTable is described as writable, 
this table uses address
as index, but the critical information for 
configuring address, the
address prefix ipAddressPrefix node is read-only. It 
seems
contradict to me.
This table uses address as index, but the public 
network and VPN
may have exactly the same IP address. This table does 
not
explicitly say whether it only supports public network. If
supporting 
VPN at the same time, there might occur the following
case: only on address 
is displayed among the same IP addresses.


ipAddressTable OBJECT-TYPE
   
SYNTAX     SEQUENCE OF IpAddressEntry
   
MAX-ACCESS not-accessible
   STATUS     
current
   
DESCRIPTION
          "This 
table contains addressing information relevant to 
the
           entity's 
interfaces.
           This 
table does not contain multicast address 
information.
           
Tables for such information should be contained in 
multicast
           
specific MIBs, such as RFC 
3019.
           While this 
table is writable, the user will note 
that
           several 
objects, such as ipAddressOrigin, are not.  
The
           intention in 
allowing a user to write to this table is 
to
           allow them to 
add or remove any entry that 
isn't
           
permanent.  The user should be allowed to modify 
objects
           and 
entries when that would not cause 
inconsistencies
           
within the table.  Allowing write access to objects, 
such
           as 
ipAddressOrigin, could allow a user to insert an 
entry
           and then 
label it incorrectly.
ipAddressPrefix OBJECT-TYPE
   
SYNTAX     RowPointer
   MAX-ACCESS 
read-only
   STATUS     current
   
DESCRIPTION
          "A pointer 
to the row in the prefix table to which 
this
           address 
belongs.  May be { 0 0 } if there is no such row."
   DEFVAL { 
zeroDotZero }
   ::= { ipAddressEntry 5 }


 



--Boundary_(ID_Z7+w5PwqtF50CbclQ0iG5Q)--


From secmech-request@lists.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 21:38:50 2010
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 21:39:07 2010
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From: Doug Barton 
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On 4/19/2010 9:31 AM, Jason Livingood wrote:
> This thread seems to have died out (on dnsops as well).

My understanding is that the Yahoo! folks are gathering data and will
report back when they have results.


Doug

-- 

	... and that's just a little bit of history repeating.
			-- Propellerheads

	Improve the effectiveness of your Internet presence with
	a domain name makeover!    http://SupersetSolutions.com/



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 22:02:26 2010
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Date: Mon, 19 Apr 2010 22:01:08 -0700
Subject: Re: Comments on draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt
From: Rajeev Koodli 
To: Behcet Sarikaya 
CC: IPv6 Operations 
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Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt
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Hi Behcet,



On 4/19/10 12:14 PM, "Behcet Sarikaya"  wrote:

> Hi Rajeev,
> =A0 My comments on=20
> Section 3.2 NAT Placement in the mobile networks
>=20
> This section nicely narrates the story of GI-DS-Lite as the centralized
> NAT=A0versus DS-Lite as the distributed DS-Lite. It reads nicely but I foun=
d in
> it too much emphasis on billing and accounting aspects while it lacks emp=
hasis
> on other aspects (more=A0meaty? aspects at least as much as I am interested=
).

DS-Lite is not presented as a distributed NAT solution in the document.

Many mobile providers do care for subscriber management. For them, it is
important to be able to do harmonized billing and accounting. With respect
to NAT itself, which introduces binding state between addresses, it is
important to be able to harmonize NAT state with subscriber billing and
accounting.

>=20
> For example, one very important feature of DS-Lite is to have an IPv6-onl=
y
> network thus savings on IPv4 addresses. This is not mentioned.
> Next, why currently mobile operators do not have much interest on DS-Lite=
 is
> not mentioned.

Clarification: this ID is *not* about evaluating pros and cons of each of
the available transition mechanism. It is about considerations that arise
when deploying IPv6 in mobile networks.

To your point about DS-lite itself, it is perfectly fine in residential
broadband networks. For mobile networks, having a tunnel termination at the
UE (host) is considered undesirable. The 3GPP TR on IPv6 transition looks a=
t
some of the variants FYI, and that document may be a good place for your
questions.=20


>=20
> On the centralized NAT or GI-DS-Lite, firstly, the identification of
> GI-DS-Lite as the centralized NAT approach is very useful because it was =
not
> clear reading the GI-DS-Lite draft.
>=20
> However, one important aspect of GI-DS-Lite is=A0that it=A0no longer requires=
 an
> IPv6-only network and therefore no IPv4 address savings which is not ment=
ioned
> in the draft.

I did not follow this. Care to elaborate?

Regards,

-Rajeev

>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Behcet
>=20
>=20
>=20



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 19 23:56:11 2010
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> > Right, some hosts may, but not all. Especially those that don't do
> DHCP for 3GPP.
>=20
> What about the laptops with built-in 3G/4G or using UE as a modem?

I don't know much about how that interface usually goes (PPP or DHCP+Ethern=
et), but sure laptops could be modified e.g. by driver updates(?). But then=
 I don't know about laptop OS'es capability for doing DHCPv4 on-demand (I w=
ould expect the laptop OS'es would rather try to keep IPv4 address allocate=
d all the time).

> > Yes, but this is *may* per 3GPP TS 23.401. Your draft should be more
> explicit
> > in telling that the percentage of host population that actually
> implements the
> > *may* part is unknown for time being.
>=20
> I would rather say that DHCP is optional but a provider may require it
> to be used.

Right, consumers often has this power over producers..

Best regards,

Teemu


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 00:52:29 2010
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To: Jason Livingood 
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* Jason Livingood

> [...] a short whitepaper some colleagues and I put together in 
> advance of that meeting (available at 
> http://www.comcast6.net/IPv6_DNS_Whitelisting_Concerns_20100416.pdf)

Hello, Jason.  I have a few comments.  On the 1st of April, you posted
the following text to the dnsop mailing list, quoting another message
sent to the same list by me:

> - Total client loss to the dualstacked host is at 0.074%.
> - (At least) 95% of the client loss is due to clients choosing to use
>   inherently unreliable transitional IPv6 (6to4/Teredo) instead of IPv4.
> - I've identifed three groups of clients that behave in this way:
>   1) Users of Opera <10.50, which did not use the RFC 3484-compliant
>      getaddrinfo() call, at least on Windows.  It would prefer any form
>      of IPv6 connectivity above IPv4.  This is especially a problem on
>      Windows Vista and 7, where 6to4 and/or Teredo are enabled by
>      default.  This accounts for about half of the 95%.
>   2) Dualstacked Mac OS X users with RFC 1918 IPv4 addresses (using
>      NAT) and transitional IPv6 addresses.  In this case, getaddrinfo()
>      will sort the IPv6 address above the IPv4 address, causing the
>      transitional connectivity to be used.  This accounts for the other
>      half of the 95%.
>   3) Dualstacked Linux users with RFC 1918 IPv4 addresses and
>      transitional IPv6 addresses, as GNU libc's getaddrinfo()
>      implementation behaves exactly like the one in Mac OS X.  However,
>      the overall client loss caused by this is miniscule compared to
>      #1 and #2 (I have problems measuring any at all).
> - When disregarding all hits from users in problem groups #1 and #2,
>   the total client loss is at 0.003% - this is, in my opinion, low
>   enough to accept.  (Of course, other content providers might feel
>   differently.)

I find it quite puzzling that you, just a few weeks later, claim that no
data about this problem has been shared with the community.  That was,
after all, exactly what I intended to do with the above message as well
as all the reports I've sent to the ipv6-ops mailing list in the last
few months.  Why did you choose to disregard the data from my
measurements completely?  Do you feel that they are flawed or
incomplete?  If so, I would appreciate it very much if you could tell me
what exactly is the problem.  I promise I will do my best to address
your concerns, and also publicly share any updated reports.

Others are doing measurements, too, and are publishing results:

http://www.ripe.net/ripe/meetings/ripe-57/presentations/Colitti-Global_IPv6_statistics_-_Measuring_the_current_state_of_IPv6_for_ordinary_users_.7gzD.pdf
http://labs.ripe.net/content/ipv6-measurement-compilation

I believe that I'm the one that's been trying the most to look behind
the numbers and identify (and publish) the actual underlying causes of
client loss, though.

Also, in the document, you write:

> [...] 0.078% of users are "broken." That is a trivial percentage of users to
> most ISPs. For example, in the Comcast network, this represents fewer
> than 12,000 users. If the problem could be solved with a new home
> gateway device, to use one possible example, Comcast could rapidly
> ship replacement devices to affected users. We believe, given the
> small number claimed, that most ISPs could rapidly solve this problem
> (if it can be precisely defined) on their own, without content
> providers having to resort to DNS whitelisting.

I doubt any content provider feels that breaking access to 12,000 users
from Comcast alone is «trivial».  For a large provider, 0.078% of all
users could very well mean millions of users world-wide.  In the end, it
all boils down to the content providers asking themselves the following
question:

«Do we want to service 999 or 1,000 users today?»
Or:  «Do we want to make €999 or €1,000 today?»

I fail to see why any commercial content provider would choose the first
option - which currently represents dual-stack.  The DNS whitelisting
approach is just a workaround in order to allow for some IPv6/dual-stack
operation to take place without at the same time reducing the number of
potential customers.

At some point in the future, when the number of users able to access a
dual-stack site equals or exceeds the number of users able to access a
IPv4-only site, there's no longer any need for DNS whitelists and I'm
sure they will disappear overnight (potentially replaced with blacklists
though), and since having only IPv4 will be a competitive disadvantage,
you'll see IPv6 deployment accelerating rapidly on the content side.

You in Comcast can help making that point in time be reached sooner
rather than later, by providing production-quality native IPv6 service
to all users.  You obviously are working on it, and I applaud that.
However your efforts alone are not enough - we need other ISPs to do the
same, too.

Almost all of the client loss I see is caused by end-user software
preferring unreliable transitional IPv6 connectivity, 6to4 in
particular.  I've not been able to identify faulty CPE devices as a
cause of client loss, so this is out of your control.  (It could very
well be that faulty CPE devices are a problem with certain ISPs in
countries that simply are not accessing my Norwegian-language content,
though.)

In any case, you can help alleviate this problem somewhat by placing
6to4 relays (192.88.99.1/24) in your network as close to the end users
as possible, and then content providers can do the reverse (relay to
2002::/16) in their data centres.  This will ensure that 6to4 will be
working almost as reliably as regular IPv4.

But as before, Comcast can not solve this problem alone, and broken 6to4
connectivity is especially a problem in enterprise/managed network
environments that are filtering proto-41 outright.  I've had discussions
with some of these networks, some do it knowingly and have no intention
of changing it, some have no idea of what I'm talking about, and finally
some removed their filters.  Identifying and contacting all these
«6to4-hostile» networks, and persuading them to change their practise,
is simply not a scalable way of handling the problem, though.
Especially if you're a global content provider.

The best way I can think of to fix the problems I'm observing, is to
have software vendors release updates, and for those updates to make
their way onto most end users' systems.  I've been pursuing that goal
for a while, so far this has resulted in the release of a RFC
3484-compliant version of the Opera web browser, which has caused a very
significant drop in overall client loss.  Also several operating system
vendors have applied my patches to GNU libc implementing section 2.7 in
draft-arifumi-6man-rfc3484-revise-02 to their developement branches.  So
far these are Fedora, Ubuntu, Gentoo, and Mandriva. Debian, openSUSE,
and last but not least Apple, have not yet responded.

The Linux distributions will not have a noticeable impact on the overall
client loss numbers, but if Apple were to apply the proposed change to
Mac OS X and push updates to their customers, it would have a enormous
impact.  Glancing briefly at my numbers this far in April, some 60-70%
of client loss is attributable to Mac OS X, or 85-95% if I first
disregard older known broken versions of the Opera web browser. The GNU
libc maintainers declined to apply the change because RFC 3484 is still
the current standard, perhaps Apple feels the same way.  If so it would
be fantastic if an updated RFC 3484 was published really soon, as it
takes time to get software updates onto most end users' computers.  And
time is something we do not have too much of at this point.

Best regards,
-- 
Tore Anderson
Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com/
Tel: +47 21 54 41 27


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 01:44:05 2010
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Le 19 avr. 2010 =E0 19:30, Cameron Byrne a =E9crit :

>>> "In summary, IPv6-only deployments should be encouraged while =
considering the roaming and applications issues"
>>=20
>> I still can't agree on this because:
>> - The market of real IPv6-ony is too limited.
>> - IPv6-only + DNS64-NAT64 is harmful to IPv6 e2e transparency.
>=20
>=20
> Why must IPv6 be pure? There is no precedent for IPv6 by nature of its
> structure being pure or meaning E2E transparency.


> NAT-PT has been
> around in the IPv6 ecosystem for a long time,

... but deprecated almost as soon as documented,

> so IPv6 addresses
> representing IPv4 destinations is by no means new. =20

Not new as an idea, but AKAIK not deployed as a standard service.
Note that the DS-lite approach, in which IPv6-only access networks =
maintain IPv4 connectivity with NAT44s rather than NAT64s, doesn't need =
IPv4-embedded IPv6 addresses.=20

> I agree that IPv6
> is the path to E2E transparency,

More than that: users of IPv6 today HAVE e2e transparency in IPv6.
DNS64-NAT64 in operator infrastructures, if done without serious =
precautions, is a path to BREAKING IPv6 e2e transparency.
This may be regrettable, but this in my understanding an inescapable =
fact. =20

> but IPv6 does not imply e2e by virtue
> of the technology.

It just RESTORES e2e transparency, which had been lost when one address =
per host became impossible.

This happened long ago, and launched the painful complexity of NATs =
(cone, symmetric, port-resticted symmetric etc.), of their ALGs, of =
sophisticated tools to make pinholes in traversed NAT like TURN, STUN, =
Teredo, etc.


> IMHO IPv6-only expedites that journey to e2e.

Again, hosts that communicate today with public IPv6 addresses HAVE e2e =
transparency.=20
This journey is therefore already finished... unless a step backward is =
consciously made to reintroduce complexity where it shouldn't exist :-(.

Note that NAT64 between a private scope IPv6 address (e.g. a ULA of RFC =
4193) and IPv4, doesn't suffer from breaking e2e transparency, because =
private addresses have to be translated somewhere. This could provide a =
way for applications to know whether they can rely on e2e transparency =
or not, but this requires in my understanding more work.
  =20
Regards,
RD=


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 02:07:24 2010
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To: Tore Anderson 
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Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation 
From: Philip Homburg 
References:  <4BCD5C6F.2090009@redpill-linpro.com> 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:49:03 +0200 ." <4BCD5C6F.2090009@redpill-linpro.com> 
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In your letter dated Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:49:03 +0200 you wrote:
>I doubt any content provider feels that breaking access to 12,000 users
>from Comcast alone is «trivial».  For a large provider, 0.078% of all
>users could very well mean millions of users world-wide.  In the end, it
>all boils down to the content providers asking themselves the following
>question:
>
>«Do we want to service 999 or 1,000 users today?»
>Or:  «Do we want to make €999 or €1,000 today?»

I don't if it would fly, but why not white-list ISPs that have their
web-servers, MXen, pop and imap servers all listed in DNS with IPv6 addresses?
(I wonder how many ISPs would qualify at the moment)

Then you can be reasonably sure that any customers with broken IPv6
connectivity will complain to the ISP as well.

>But as before, Comcast can not solve this problem alone, and broken 6to4
>connectivity is especially a problem in enterprise/managed network
>environments that are filtering proto-41 outright.  I've had discussions
>with some of these networks, some do it knowingly and have no intention
>of changing it, some have no idea of what I'm talking about, and finally
>some removed their filters.  Identifying and contacting all these
>«6to4-hostile» networks, and persuading them to change their practise,
>is simply not a scalable way of handling the problem, though.
>Especially if you're a global content provider.

The thing that IMHO went wrong here is that the first thing everybody does
is disable neighbor discovery, and therefore also neighbor unreachability
detection.

Eventhough it is perfectly possible to find out that a connection doesn't work,
in practice nobody does anything with that option.

To some extent that is also due to lack of standards. For example, if source
address selection had an option to skip source addresses if the route to
the destination is down, then a host with a broken IPv6 configuration would
fall back to just IPv4.

There is a lot that can be done with accurate reports on unreachability, but
hardly any RFC mandates that. And ISP are all to happy to disable this 
becuase of the load it generates on their routers/networks.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 02:08:20 2010
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Le 19 avr. 2010 =E0 19:47, Fred Baker a =E9crit :

>=20
> On Apr 19, 2010, at 10:30 AM, Cameron Byrne wrote:
>=20
>>> - If DNS64-NAT64 synthesizes IPv6 addresses that hosts don't =
distinguish today from real IPv6 addresses, this destroys the IPv6 =
guarantee of e2e transparency.
>=20
> Only for communications that leave the IPv6 domain and are translated =
to IPv4, which already has this problem.

This problem is indeed inherent to NAT64.
But fortunately it is not inherent to the more general problem of IPv4 =
connectivity across IPv6-only access network:
- If hosts are dual stack, and have means to encapsulate IPv4 in IPv6 =
across provider access networks, no IPv6-IPv4 translation is necessary.
- This is possible in particular with DS-lite, where operator NATs are =
NAT44s.
- This is also possible with the reversed 6rd I plan to document and =
which is essentially as simple as 6rd (encapsulations with stateless =
address mappings). With it, customer sites can derive from their IPv6 =
addresses their IPv4 addresses (typically shared, with disjoint port =
sets). Where applicable, no operator NAT at all is needed.


> If the communication stays within the IPv6 domain, whether the two =
hosts know it or not, they are communicating transparently.

Right, but, unless it is impossible, e2e transparency in IPv6 should =
also apply across the Internet in general.=20
(And AFAIKT this is NOT impossible).

Regards,
RD





From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 03:03:39 2010
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Le 19 avr. 2010 =E0 20:26, Rajeev Koodli a =E9crit :

>> In sec 3.3, you have (asterisks added):
>>   " Hence a service provider may
>>   choose to enforce IPv6-only PDN and address assignment for their =
own
>>   subscribers in their Home Networks, see Figure 1.  This is feasible
>>   for the newer MNs when the provider's network is "IPv6-ready", =
which
>>   means the network is able to provide IPv6-only PDN support *and
>>  IPv6 - IPv4 interworking*  for Internet access."
>>=20
>> I therefore understood the considered "IPv6-only" networks as having
>> DNS64-NAT64s (not as having no IPv4 connectivity at all).
>>=20
>=20
> It's both: no IPv4 connectivity, and IPv6 - IPv4 interworking.

OK, this is a vocabulary problem.
(To me, NAT64s provide IPv4 connectivity to hosts that are IPv6-only =
enabled.)

> Dual-stack deployments do not have either of these.

Here, I am confused.
In my understanding, dual stack everywhere provides IPv4 connectivity.

>>> ...
>>> I could reword the last sentence to: "For instance, if an LTE =
deployment is
>>> IPv6-only, a roamed 3G UMTS network may not offer IPv6 connectivity"
>>=20
>> Isn't it true that the lack of IPv6 connectivity of some 3G UMTS =
networks is
>> independent from whether LTE networks are dual-standard or not?
>>=20
>=20
> Yes. However, the point here is that if an LTE deployment chooses to =
be
> IPv6-only, a roamed 3G network may not offer IPv6 connectivity, which =
means
> the home network (that offers IPv6-only service) needs to be able to =
provide
> IPv4 connectivity to such roamed users.

I see, and like better this way of saying it.

>>> "In summary, IPv6-only deployments should be encouraged while =
considering the
>>> roaming and applications issues"
>>=20
>> I still can't agree on this because:
>> - The market of real IPv6-ony is too limited.
>=20
> Well, someone has to start. There are arguments on why some want to do
> IPv6-only in mobile networks.

I understand the argument about a single routing family in the access =
network, and agree with it.
But like 6rd permits public IPv6 across IPv4-only infrastructures, =
reversed 6rd (say 4rd) permits to offer public IPv4 (typically =
port-restricted) across IPv6-only infrastructures.

Since LTE handsets are new, having in them the simple support of 4rd =
shouldn't be a big deal, and AFAIKT would avoid, with operators that =
also support 4rd all problems associated with IPv4-IPv6 translations.
It is clear that, until an easy to read and complete enough description =
of 4rd is available, entering into more details is difficult.
I should therefore concentrate on writing it.
   =20
>> - With simple additions in LTE MNs port-restricted public IPv4 =
addresses can
>> be made available across IPv6-only access networks, which reconciles =
IPv6 e2e
>> transparency and IPv4 connectivity with an IPv6-only routing plan in =
LTE
>> access networks. (About this, see also what I answered to Cameron =
Byrne in
>> http://ops.ietf.org/lists/v6ops/v6ops.2010/msg00609.html).
>=20
> I understand. Making changes to MNs is another story. I reckon 3GPP =
would be
> a good place to bring this kind of proposal.

I do think so, very much so.
I hope we can try to proceed quickly in this direction.

>> IMHO, if your draft can be a great informational document if relieved =
of
>> general "encouragements" to deploy IPv6-only (at least as long as it
>> implicitly goes with DNS64-NAT64), and if noting the conflict between =
IPv6 e2e
>> transparency and DNS64-NAT64.
>=20
> Thanks.=20

> However, I do believe that there is a case for IPv6-only deployments =
from a
> variety of angles, including - private IPv4 address exhaustion, side =
effects
> of overlapped addresses etc., investments in NAT44, speedier =
transition to
> IPv6 and so on. This does have costs associated with it, as you point =
out
> above.

If you agree, we can resume the discussion when the 4rd description is =
available.

> It may be worthwhile to refer to NAT64+DNS64 considerations to an
> appropriate BEHAVE document?

Maybe, but your draft seems a good place to start with.

> Again, I would point out that the ID is not intending to prefer =
IPv6-only
> over Dual-stack. The latter is the default, the former should be a =
choice,
> at least for some. I will clarify..

Thanks for this discussion.
RD=


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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 11:44:20 +0200
From: Tore Anderson 
Organization: Redpill Linpro AS
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To: Philip Homburg 
CC: Jason Livingood ,  IPv6 Operations 
Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation
References:  <4BCD5C6F.2090009@redpill-linpro.com> 
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Hi,

* Philip Homburg

> In your letter dated Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:49:03 +0200 you wrote:
>> For a large provider, 0.078% of all users could very well mean
>> millions of users world-wide.

After sending my previous message I did the math on this statement, and
I realise it's an exaggeration - so I'd like to moderate «millions» to
«hundreds of thousands».   (Not that it changes any of my points.)

> I don't if it would fly, but why not white-list ISPs that have their 
> web-servers, MXen, pop and imap servers all listed in DNS with IPv6
> addresses? (I wonder how many ISPs would qualify at the moment)

Not many, I think.  Such a requirement would probably cause Google's
current whitelist to shrink considerably - Comcast, for instance, would
no longer be eligible.  Personally I will not deploy a whitelist at all
due to the overhead with maintaining it, instead I'll stay IPv4-only
until my customers feel the client loss is low enough to deploy
dual-stack (with global visibility).

> The thing that IMHO went wrong here is that the first thing everybody
> does is disable neighbor discovery, and therefore also neighbor
> unreachability detection.

Are you talking about ICMPv6 ND here?  If so, that is not end-to-end, it
only works on a link, similar to IPv4 ARP.  It is end-to-end
connectivity that is broken, so I fail to understand what you feel could
be done better here?

> Eventhough it is perfectly possible to find out that a connection
> doesn't work, in practice nobody does anything with that option.

I think Windows XP did some form of reachability testing and would
disable the 6to4 interface entirely if it failed.  They removed it in
Vista, but I've heard they're now considering putting back in.  But
Windows doesn't cause much problems anyway, since it appears their RFC
3484 implementation already implements section 2.7 from
draft-arifumi-6man-rfc3484-revise-02.  (You can argue that the Windows
implementation is the reference implementation, as it was Microsoft who
authored RFC 3484 to begin with.)

> To some extent that is also due to lack of standards. For example, if
> source address selection had an option to skip source addresses if
> the route to the destination is down, then a host with a broken IPv6
> configuration would fall back to just IPv4.

Actually, this is part of RFC 3484 already:

>    Rule 1:  Avoid unusable destinations.
>    If DB is known to be unreachable or if Source(DB) is undefined, then
>    prefer DA.  Similarly, if DA is known to be unreachable or if
>    Source(DA) is undefined, then prefer DB.

Applications will also fall back to IPv4 if the initial IPv6 connection
failed.  However for latency-sensitive applications that make use of
many short-lived connections (HTTP is a good example), this timeout is
so long that preferring defective IPv6 above working IPv4 will
essentially render the application useless.

By the way:  A curious effect of the current RFC 3484 algorithm is that
if you have both default IPv4 and IPv6 routes, RFC 1918-based IPv4
addresses, and only link-local IPv6 addresses, IPv6 will be preferred.
I'm not sure if this situation is commonly found in the wild though.

Best regards,
-- 
Tore Anderson
Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com/
Tel: +47 21 54 41 27


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 03:26:07 2010
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To: pch-v6ops@u-1.phicoh.com
Cc: tore.anderson@redpill-linpro.com, jason_livingood@cable.comcast.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation 
From: Havard Eidnes 
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> I don't if it would fly, but why not white-list ISPs that have
> their web-servers, MXen, pop and imap servers all listed in DNS
> with IPv6 addresses?  (I wonder how many ISPs would qualify at
> the moment)
>
> Then you can be reasonably sure that any customers with broken IPv6
> connectivity will complain to the ISP as well.

The failure mode experienced by the users is typically ... not
obvious, so whether there pops out a report to the provider from the
customer about broken IPv6 connectivity as a result of the failure
is far from given.  I suspect that the site administrators would not
expect IPv6 to be the problem source, since that's typically not
something they've enabled on their local network (yet).

Regards,

- H=E5vard


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 03:56:32 2010
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To: Tore Anderson 
Cc: Jason Livingood , IPv6 Operations 
Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation 
From: Philip Homburg 
References:  <4BCD5C6F.2090009@redpill-linpro.com>  <4BCD7774.5010601@redpill-linpro.com> 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Apr 2010 11:44:20 +0200 ." <4BCD7774.5010601@redpill-linpro.com> 
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In your letter dated Tue, 20 Apr 2010 11:44:20 +0200 you wrote:
>> The thing that IMHO went wrong here is that the first thing everybody
>> does is disable neighbor discovery, and therefore also neighbor
>> unreachability detection.
>
>Are you talking about ICMPv6 ND here?  If so, that is not end-to-end, it
>only works on a link, similar to IPv4 ARP.  It is end-to-end
>connectivity that is broken, so I fail to understand what you feel could
>be done better here?

In discussion about 6to4, and other automatic tunneling protocols, the
big problem seems to be the first hop. I think most of the problems would
be solved if a 6to4 router would verify the performance of the tunnel.

>> Eventhough it is perfectly possible to find out that a connection
>> doesn't work, in practice nobody does anything with that option.
>
>I think Windows XP did some form of reachability testing and would
>disable the 6to4 interface entirely if it failed.  They removed it in
>Vista, but I've heard they're now considering putting back in.  But
>Windows doesn't cause much problems anyway, since it appears their RFC
>3484 implementation already implements section 2.7 from
>draft-arifumi-6man-rfc3484-revise-02.  (You can argue that the Windows
>implementation is the reference implementation, as it was Microsoft who
>authored RFC 3484 to begin with.)

Does that mean that this policy will prefer a NAT44 IPv4 over a configured
tunnel?

>> To some extent that is also due to lack of standards. For example, if
>> source address selection had an option to skip source addresses if
>> the route to the destination is down, then a host with a broken IPv6
>> configuration would fall back to just IPv4.
>
>Actually, this is part of RFC 3484 already:
>
>>    Rule 1:  Avoid unusable destinations.
>>    If DB is known to be unreachable or if Source(DB) is undefined, then
>>    prefer DA.  Similarly, if DA is known to be unreachable or if
>>    Source(DA) is undefined, then prefer DB.
>
>Applications will also fall back to IPv4 if the initial IPv6 connection
>failed.  However for latency-sensitive applications that make use of
>many short-lived connections (HTTP is a good example), this timeout is
>so long that preferring defective IPv6 above working IPv4 will
>essentially render the application useless.

That's the problem. At the moment the host usually doesn't know.

A 6to4 router (like an Airport) could stop advertising the prefix when the
6ro4 default router is unreachable, but nobody does that.

In theory, web browser could configure faster timeout in TCP connection 
setups when destination unreachable ICMPs are received, but usually the
ICMPs are not there (and the API is probably not there either).




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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 04:08:59 2010
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To: Havard Eidnes 
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation 
From: Philip Homburg 
References:  <4BCD5C6F.2090009@redpill-linpro.com>  <20100420.121337.107923460.he@uninett.no> 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:13:37 +0200 (CEST) ." <20100420.121337.107923460.he@uninett.no> 
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In your letter dated Tue, 20 Apr 2010 12:13:37 +0200 (CEST) you wrote:
>> Then you can be reasonably sure that any customers with broken IPv6
>> connectivity will complain to the ISP as well.
>
>The failure mode experienced by the users is typically ... not
>obvious, so whether there pops out a report to the provider from the
>customer about broken IPv6 connectivity as a result of the failure
>is far from given.  I suspect that the site administrators would not
>expect IPv6 to be the problem source, since that's typically not
>something they've enabled on their local network (yet).

If customers are not using any application level service offered by the
ISP (i.e. read mail through gmail/hotmail/yahoo, etc, don't visit the ISP's
website, etc.) then it may go undetected. That's true.

Otherise, admins learn quickly enough. It may be tricky to find at first.
but soon everybody starts talking about that new IPv6 thing and how much 
trouble it causes.

ISP helpdesks will also be quick to ask customers to disable IPv6 to resolve
any problems.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 04:27:47 2010
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Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation
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* Philip Homburg

> In discussion about 6to4, and other automatic tunneling protocols,
> the big problem seems to be the first hop. I think most of the
> problems would be solved if a 6to4 router would verify the
> performance of the tunnel.

I see, just like I think Microsoft is considering doing.  Yes, I think
that would help quite a bit.  However, due to the asymmetric nature of
anycasted 6to4, it could very well be that even if the connectivity test
to destination A succeeds, connectivity will still be broken for
destination B - because A and B does not necessarily use the same return
relay.

In my opinion, anycasted 6to4 is fine as a last-resort option (along
with e.g. Teredo) for a IPv4-only host to access IPv6-only content.
But it is not as reliable as regular IPv4, and should therefore never be
preferred above it.

>> I think Windows XP did some form of reachability testing and would 
>> disable the 6to4 interface entirely if it failed.  They removed it
>> in Vista, but I've heard they're now considering putting back in.
>> But Windows doesn't cause much problems anyway, since it appears
>> their RFC 3484 implementation already implements section 2.7 from 
>> draft-arifumi-6man-rfc3484-revise-02.  (You can argue that the
>> Windows implementation is the reference implementation, as it was
>> Microsoft who authored RFC 3484 to begin with.)
> 
> Does that mean that this policy will prefer a NAT44 IPv4 over a
> configured tunnel?

Yes, that the effect of the change proposed in
draft-arifumi-6man-rfc3484-revise-02, and also how Microsoft's
getaddrinfo() currently behaves.  I strongly support the proposed change.

RFC 3484, however, currently says to prefer 6to4 over IPv4 NAT44 (or
more precisely RFC 1918 IPv4).

> A 6to4 router (like an Airport) could stop advertising the prefix
> when the 6ro4 default router is unreachable, but nobody does that.

Nope.  However, if 6to4 was only used by the end-user operating
system/applications as a last resort connectivity method, this would not
be necessary.  And that is clearly the _intention_ of RFC 3484, which
says to «avoid the use of transitional addresses when native addresses
are available».  I suppose NAT44 wasn't used as widely as now back when
the RFC was written.

> In theory, web browser could configure faster timeout in TCP
> connection setups when destination unreachable ICMPs are received,
> but usually the ICMPs are not there (and the API is probably not
> there either).

Yep, a ICMP dest unreachable (or TCP RST) would cause a rapid fallback.
However, no 6to4 implementation I've seen will transform an outer ICMPv4
dest unreachable to an inner ICMPv6 unreachable that actually will reach
the web browser application.

Best regards,
-- 
Tore Anderson
Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com/
Tel: +47 21 54 41 27


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 05:04:23 2010
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From: Mohacsi Janos 
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To: Tore Anderson 
cc: Philip Homburg ,  Jason Livingood ,  IPv6 Operations 
Subject: Re: FYI: DNSOPS presentation
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On Tue, 20 Apr 2010, Tore Anderson wrote:

>>> Windows implementation is the reference implementation, as it was
>>> Microsoft who authored RFC 3484 to begin with.)
>>
>> Does that mean that this policy will prefer a NAT44 IPv4 over a
>> configured tunnel?
>
> Yes, that the effect of the change proposed in
> draft-arifumi-6man-rfc3484-revise-02, and also how Microsoft's
> getaddrinfo() currently behaves.  I strongly support the proposed change.
>
> RFC 3484, however, currently says to prefer 6to4 over IPv4 NAT44 (or
> more precisely RFC 1918 IPv4).

However all the existing implemention prefers IPv4 with RFC1918 addresses.


>
>> A 6to4 router (like an Airport) could stop advertising the prefix
>> when the 6ro4 default router is unreachable, but nobody does that.
>
> Nope.  However, if 6to4 was only used by the end-user operating
> system/applications as a last resort connectivity method, this would not
> be necessary.  And that is clearly the _intention_ of RFC 3484, which
> says to ?avoid the use of transitional addresses when native addresses
> are available?.  I suppose NAT44 wasn't used as widely as now back when
> the RFC was written.

Yes it was the case.



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 05:08:40 2010
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From: Tore Anderson 
Organization: Redpill Linpro AS
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* Mohacsi Janos

>> Yes, that the effect of the change proposed in 
>> draft-arifumi-6man-rfc3484-revise-02, and also how Microsoft's 
>> getaddrinfo() currently behaves.  I strongly support the proposed
>> change.
>> 
>> RFC 3484, however, currently says to prefer 6to4 over IPv4 NAT44
>> (or more precisely RFC 1918 IPv4).
> 
> However all the existing implemention prefers IPv4 with RFC1918
> addresses.

That is not the case.  Mac OS X and GNU libc+derivates are two prominent
examples of getaddrinfo()/RFC 3484 implementations that follow the RFC
to the letter.  They prefer 6to4 over (RFC 1918) IPv4.

That's what causing most of the client loss in my dual-stack measurements.

Best regards,
-- 
Tore Anderson
Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com/
Tel: +47 21 54 41 27


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 05:28:34 2010
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From: Mohacsi Janos 
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On Tue, 20 Apr 2010, Tore Anderson wrote:

> * Mohacsi Janos
>
>>> Yes, that the effect of the change proposed in
>>> draft-arifumi-6man-rfc3484-revise-02, and also how Microsoft's
>>> getaddrinfo() currently behaves.  I strongly support the proposed
>>> change.
>>>
>>> RFC 3484, however, currently says to prefer 6to4 over IPv4 NAT44
>>> (or more precisely RFC 1918 IPv4).
>>
>> However all the existing implemention prefers IPv4 with RFC1918
>> addresses.
>
> That is not the case.  Mac OS X and GNU libc+derivates are two prominent
> examples of getaddrinfo()/RFC 3484 implementations that follow the RFC
> to the letter.  They prefer 6to4 over (RFC 1918) IPv4.
>
> That's what causing most of the client loss in my dual-stack measurements.
>
> Best regards,

Mac OS X does not implement RFC 3484.

Linux implementation is not tested by me a while ago, but one of my 
college did and confirmed no problem. Maybe he made a mistake in the test. 
It seems to me
http://people.redhat.com/drepper/linux-rfc3484.html
does not refer to this problem.

I try to inform linux RFC3484 implementers about the problem.

Best Regards,

 	Janos Mohacsi


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 05:49:41 2010
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From: Tore Anderson 
Organization: Redpill Linpro AS
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To: Mohacsi Janos 
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Hi,

* Mohacsi Janos

> Mac OS X does not implement RFC 3484.

I understand.  In any case, Mac OS X does prefer IPv6/6to4 over IPv4/RFC
1918, so in the end the result is the same.

> Linux implementation is not tested by me a while ago, but one of my
> college did and confirmed no problem. Maybe he made a mistake in the
> test. It seems to me
> http://people.redhat.com/drepper/linux-rfc3484.html
> does not refer to this problem.
> 
> I try to inform linux RFC3484 implementers about the problem.

I'm already on it:

http://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=11438
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=577626
https://bugs.launchpad.net/glibc/+bug/555210
http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=315977
https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=597616
https://qa.mandriva.com/show_bug.cgi?id=58834
http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=468801

Best regards,
-- 
Tore Anderson
Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com/
Tel: +47 21 54 41 27


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To: james woodyatt 
CC: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security.chairs@tools.ietf.org,  IPv6 v6ops 
Subject: Re: I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10
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I discussed this briefly with James during IETF 77.

HIP is on track to be reved for standards track.  It is assigned 
Protocol number 139, and should be treated by cpe-simple-security the 
same as IKE.  I will offer my best effort at text below.

I apologize for the few week delay, Passover came RIGHT after IETF.  And 
I SUPPOSE I should have pushed this 6 months ago while we were pushing 
to get HIP moving towards standards.  But that is water under the bridge...

On 03/29/2010 05:43 PM, james woodyatt wrote:
> concerned--
>
> This is to inform the chairs of the V6OPS working group that it is the sense of the editor of draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security and the design team that worked most closely on it during its development, that the latest posted revision, i.e. -10, is ready for Working Group Last Call.

In sec 2.2 add at the end of the para:

HIP is also explicitly secured by definition, so this document 
recommends the DEFAULT operating mode permit Host Identity Protocol 
(HIP) flows to pass without filtering.

Add sec 3.2.6:

3.2.6  Host Identity Protocol (HIP)

Host Identity Protocol (HIP) offers greater flexibility and better 
overall security than the simple security of stateful packet filtering 
at network perimeters.  Therefore, residential IPv6 gateways need not 
prohibit HIP traffic flows.

REC-nn: In their DEFAULT operating mode, IPv6 gateways MUST NOT prohibit 
the forwarding of packets, to and from legitimate node addresses, with 
destination extension headers of type "Host Identity Protocol (HIP)" 
[RFC5201] in their outer IP extension header chain.

{note here, 5201-bis exists, but it will take a few months to finish 
this (we are NOT expecting a long process to add the agreed changes to 
5201).  The new RFC will be tagged as Standard, but will use the same 
protocol number.}

REC-nn: In their DEFAULT operating mode, IPv6 gateways MUST NOT prohibit 
the forwarding of packets, to and from legitimate node addresses, with 
an upper layer protocol of type "Encapsulating Security Payload (ESP)" 
[RFC4303] in their outer IP extension header chain.

{note this is the same text as REC-21, as HIP uses ESP in TRANSPORT mode.}

{note:  There is no easy equivalence of REC-23 with HIP due to its 
mobility.  In RFC 5206 we cover mobility and mid-box updating of moves.  
But do you want that here?  In HIP the SPI is all you can count on, as 
the IP address pair are mutable during the life of the SPI.}

In sec 8.1 add:

RFC 5201

Thank you.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 07:25:38 2010
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Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Cameron Byrne 
To: =?ISO-8859-1?B?UultaSBEZXNwculz?= 
Cc: "Koodli, Rajeev" , Fred Baker ,  IPv6 Operations 
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On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 1:38 AM, R=E9mi Despr=E9s  wr=
ote:
>
> Le 19 avr. 2010 =E0 19:30, Cameron Byrne a =E9crit :
>
>>>> "In summary, IPv6-only deployments should be encouraged while consider=
ing the roaming and applications issues"
>>>
>>> I still can't agree on this because:
>>> - The market of real IPv6-ony is too limited.
>>> - IPv6-only + DNS64-NAT64 is harmful to IPv6 e2e transparency.
>>
>>
>> Why must IPv6 be pure? There is no precedent for IPv6 by nature of its
>> structure being pure or meaning E2E transparency.
>
>
>> NAT-PT has been
>> around in the IPv6 ecosystem for a long time,
>
> ... but deprecated almost as soon as documented,
>
>> so IPv6 addresses
>> representing IPv4 destinations is by no means new.
>
> Not new as an idea, but AKAIK not deployed as a standard service.
> Note that the DS-lite approach, in which IPv6-only access networks mainta=
in IPv4 connectivity with NAT44s rather than NAT64s, doesn't need IPv4-embe=
dded IPv6 addresses.
>
>> I agree that IPv6
>> is the path to E2E transparency,
>
> More than that: users of IPv6 today HAVE e2e transparency in IPv6.
> DNS64-NAT64 in operator infrastructures, if done without serious precauti=
ons, is a path to BREAKING IPv6 e2e transparency.
> This may be regrettable, but this in my understanding an inescapable fact=
.
>
>> but IPv6 does not imply e2e by virtue
>> of the technology.
>
> It just RESTORES e2e transparency, which had been lost when one address p=
er host became impossible.
>
> This happened long ago, and launched the painful complexity of NATs (cone=
, symmetric, port-resticted symmetric etc.), of their ALGs, of sophisticate=
d tools to make pinholes in traversed NAT like TURN, STUN, Teredo, etc.
>
>
>> IMHO IPv6-only expedites that journey to e2e.
>
> Again, hosts that communicate today with public IPv6 addresses HAVE e2e t=
ransparency.
> This journey is therefore already finished... unless a step backward is c=
onsciously made to reintroduce complexity where it shouldn't exist :-(.
>

With all due respect,  I don't think you and I will come to an
agreement, we simply have different priorities and values. A major
network that I work at will take this "step backwards" with IPv6-only
and NAT64, it is already deployed in a trial, the trial is going VERY
well.  The customer experience on IPv4 + NAT44 and IPv6 + NAT64 are
identical for the target handsets and users.   IMHO, your arguments
are not strong enough to justify yet another solution and will not
appeal to mobile operators.  Mobile has IPv6 solutions, they were
described in full at the San Francisco 3GPP-IETF meeting, and I
believe operators are moving forward with those solution, the timeline
requires movement now.  A major outcome from that San Francisco
meeting that you need to be very aware of is that there is a very
large resistance to adding new features to the mobile handset.  As
soon as you bring that up, the mobile operator will dismiss 4RD just
as they moved away from PNAT and DS-Lite.

I don't believe you are communicating with IPv6 hosts at NetFlix and
Google, right?  Your e2e is between a host and a stateful load
balancer doing protocol translations.  Like many thing, if it works
today and is inexpensive, it gets deployed.

In any technology decision, trade-offs must be made.  IMHO, NAT64
trades off some E2E (IPv4 is NAT44 anyways today) to expedite the
deployment of IPv6 where all flows will have E2E (aside from content
load balancers).  Given that IPv4 is NAT44 today, going to NAT64 is
steady state, no new downsides and I get the upside of direct e2e for
ipv6.



> Note that NAT64 between a private scope IPv6 address (e.g. a ULA of RFC 4=
193) and IPv4, doesn't suffer from breaking e2e transparency, because priva=
te addresses have to be translated somewhere. This could provide a way for =
applications to know whether they can rely on e2e transparency or not, but =
this requires in my understanding more work.
>

Not sure of the value of this.

Thanks for the discussion.

Cameron

> Regards,
> RD


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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 11:15:31 -0400
Subject: Re: FYI:  DNSOPS presentation
From: Jason Livingood 
To: Tore Anderson 
CC: IPv6 Operations 
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> Hello, Jason.  I have a few comments.  On the 1st of April, you posted
> the following text to the dnsop mailing list, quoting another message
> sent to the same list by me:
> 
 
> I find it quite puzzling that you, just a few weeks later, claim that no
> data about this problem has been shared with the community.

I didn't write that email - which may explain your puzzlement.  ;-)

Jason Livingood





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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 09:01:27 2010
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Hi Jason,

* Jason Livingood

>> I find it quite puzzling that you, just a few weeks later, claim that no
>> data about this problem has been shared with the community.
> 
> I didn't write that email - which may explain your puzzlement.  ;-)

«From: Jason Livingood »
-- http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dnsop/current/msg08383.html

If you didn't send that message, who did?

Best regards,
-- 
Tore Anderson
Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com/
Tel: +47 21 54 41 27


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From: "Laganier, Julien" 
To: Fred Baker , IPv6 v6ops 
CC: "draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security@tools.ietf.org" 
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 09:17:11 -0700
Subject: RE: WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt 
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> Fred Baker wrote:=20
>=20
> As agreed at the last IETF meeting, I am opening a two week WGLC of=20
> draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt. Please read the document,=20
> comment to this list on matters of substance, and send nits (spelling/
> grammar, word choice, sentence structure comments) to the authors.

I realize I am late with this but I have reviewed the document and have the=
 following comment:

The document does not explicitly mention how should IPv6 be treated by a CP=
E.=20

Mobile IPv6 involves the use of IP-in-IP tunneling and of IPsec and IKE, al=
l of which seems to be covered in Section 2.2. in an adequate manner:

2.2.  Internet Layer Protocols

   As virtual private networking tunnels are regarded as an unacceptably
   wide attack surface, this document recommends the DEFAULT operating
   mode for residential IPv6 simple security is to treat IP-in-IP and
   GRE tunneling protocols as opaque transport layers, i.e. inbound
   tunnel initiations are denied and outbound tunnel initiations are
   accepted.  IPsec transport and tunnel modes are explicitly secured by
   definition, so this document recommends the DEFAULT operating mode
   permit IPsec and Internet Key Exchange (IKE) flows to pass without
   filtering.

Mobile IPv6 also involves the use of the Mobility Header, which seems to be=
 appropriately covered by the recommendation of Section 3.2.2.:

3.2.2.  Upper-layer Transport Protocols

   Residential IPv6 gateways are not expected to prohibit the use of
   applications to be developed using future upper-layer transport
   protocols.  In particular, transport protocols not otherwise
   discussed in subsequent sections of this document are expected to be
   treated consistently, i.e. as having connection-free semantics and no
   special requirements to inspect the transport headers.

   In general, upper-layer transport filter state records are expected
   to be created when an interior endpoint sends a packet to an exterior
   address.  The filter allocates (or reuses) a record for the duration
   of communications, with an idle timer to delete the state record when
   no further communications are detected.

   REC-10: Filter state records for generic upper-layer transport
   protocols MUST BE indexable by a 3-tuple comprising the interior node
   address, the exterior node address and the upper-layer transport
   protocol identifier.

   REC-11: Filter state records for generic upper-layer transport
   protocols MUST NOT be deleted or recycled until an idle timer not
   less than two minutes has expired without having forwarded a packet
   matching the state in some configurable amount of time.  By DEFAULT,
   the idle timer for such state records is five minutes.

However MIPv6 also relies on the use of a degenerated tunneling mechanism b=
etween a Mobile Node and its corresponds nodes. This tunneling involves the=
 use of the Routing Header Type 2 and of the Home Address destination optio=
n, which are not covered in the document.=20

In practice I believe this type of tunnel should be treated as IP-in-IP tun=
nels, but this is currently not the case. The issues is as follows:

Outbound packets sent in the tunnel are sent from the Mobile Node Care-of A=
ddress and with a Home Address destination option -- so it seems that there=
 is no problem for those, although we might want to be explicit.

However inbound packets corresponding to an outbound initiated tunnel shoul=
d be accepted as well (as for IP-in-IP), but these packets will be destined=
 to the Home Address and carrying the Care-of Address in the Routing Header=
 Type 2, so they will not be handled properly absent an explicit recommenda=
tion that the CPE tracks MIPv6 HoA/RH2 degenerated tunnels.

I believe we should cover MIPv6 adequately in this specification by adding =
explicit tracking of outbound initiated MIPv6 HoA/RH2 degenerated tunnels.=
=20

[ The MEXT WG has two documents specifying firewall behavior for MIPv6 that=
 could be used as a starting point for text to be included in this spec -- =
see http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mext-firewall-vendor-02 and http:=
//tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mext-firewall-admin-02 ]

What do people think?

--julien

=20



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 09:33:11 2010
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Subject: I-D ACTION:draft-ietf-v6ops-v6-in-mobile-networks-00.txt 
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts 
directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.

	Title		: Mobile Networks Considerations for IPv6 Deployment

	Author(s)	: R. Koodli
	Filename	: draft-ietf-v6ops-v6-in-mobile-networks-00.txt
	Pages		: 15
	Date		: 2010-4-17
	
   Mobile Internet access from smartphones and other mobile devices is
   accelerating the exhaustion of IPv4 addresses.  IPv6 is widely seen
   as crucial for the continued operation and growth of the Internet,
   and in particular, it is critical in mobile networks.  This document
   discusses the issues that arise when deploying IPv6 in mobile
   networks.  Hence, this document can be a useful reference for service
   providers and network designers.


A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-v6-in-mobile-networks-00.txt

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 09:47:04 2010
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Le 20 avr. 2010 =E0 16:11, Cameron Byrne a =E9crit :

> With all due respect,  I don't think you and I will come to an
> agreement, we simply have different priorities and values. A major
> network that I work at will take this "step backwards" with IPv6-only
> and NAT64, it is already deployed in a trial, the trial is going VERY
> well.  The customer experience on IPv4 + NAT44 and IPv6 + NAT64 are
> identical for the target handsets and users.


User experience may be the same so far but, to take an example, the =
impossibility to translate UDP datagrams with null checksum exists in =
NAT64s and doesn't exist in NAT44s.=20
(With all due respect, the fact that a decision has been made doesn't =
forbid to look at its foreseeable consequences, without any taboo.)
=20
>   IMHO, your arguments
> are not strong enough to justify yet another solution and will not
> appeal to mobile operators.  Mobile has IPv6 solutions, they were
> described in full at the San Francisco 3GPP-IETF meeting, and I
> believe operators are moving forward with those solution, the timeline
> requires movement now. =20

"Moving forward" with dual-stack routing IS possible (no need for =
another solution for a deployment today).
Depending on interpretation, it remains the ONLY recommended model, or =
just one of them.
(As you have understood, dual stack should be IMHO remain so far the =
ONLY recommended model.)

One can choose to deploy NAT64, taking then the responsibility for all =
known and foreseeable consequences. =20

> A major outcome from that San Francisco
> meeting that you need to be very aware of is that there is a very
> large resistance to adding new features to the mobile handset. =20

I certainly didn't wait for this meeting to notice it.
That's why dual-stack is the safest way to avoid urgent fixes in mobile =
handsets when problems that were never experienced before but are =
foreseeable start to appear.

> As
> soon as you bring that up, the mobile operator will dismiss 4RD just
> as they moved away from PNAT and DS-Lite.

You may be right.=20

LTE could however have been a nice opportunity to include in the =
specification a simple complement to IPv6 drivers, to the effect that:
- port-restricted IPv4 would be statelessly available across IPv6-only =
LTE infrastructures=20
- LTE access networks could have been deployed with IPv6 only in routers =
and without any DNS64-NAT64 to be supported (an important saving in =
operational costs)

Note that 4rd is also a solution for DSL operators, applicable between =
ISP border routers and home gateways (like 6rd), which may be sufficient =
for its future.


> I don't believe you are communicating with IPv6 hosts at NetFlix and
> Google, right?  Your e2e is between a host and a stateful load
> balancer doing protocol translations.  Like many thing, if it works
> today and is inexpensive, it gets deployed.


I don't use NetFlix.

I never doubted that when using Google, or the IETF site, servers were =
directly accessible in IPv6.
(IPv6 load balancers would no longer be load balancers if they would =
have to do, in addition to their essential function, IPv6-IPv4 =
translations.)

In my understanding, that's solutions without NAT64s that so far ARE =
deployed, and work, and are inexpensive (with 6rd being a particular =
tool for this in ISP environments).


> In any technology decision, trade-offs must be made.  IMHO, NAT64
> trades off some E2E (IPv4 is NAT44 anyways today) to expedite the
> deployment of IPv6 where all flows will have E2E (aside from content
> load balancers).  Given that IPv4 is NAT44 today, going to NAT64 is
> steady state, no new downsides and I get the upside of direct e2e for
> ipv6.

NAT64 is NOT steady state from NAT44, for various reasons (UDP null =
checksum, being one of them).
Dual-stack is much more steady state.


Regards,
RD
 =20



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 10:08:35 2010
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Subject: Re: WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt 
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Thanks. On your first point, we tossed around the idea of merging it =
into draft-ietf-cpe-router and chose not to. This document describes an =
additional feature that vendors MAY build into a CPE Router.

On Apr 20, 2010, at 9:17 AM, Laganier, Julien wrote:

>> Fred Baker wrote:=20
>>=20
>> As agreed at the last IETF meeting, I am opening a two week WGLC of=20=

>> draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt. Please read the =
document,=20
>> comment to this list on matters of substance, and send nits =
(spelling/
>> grammar, word choice, sentence structure comments) to the authors.
>=20
> I realize I am late with this but I have reviewed the document and =
have the following comment:
>=20
> The document does not explicitly mention how should IPv6 be treated by =
a CPE.=20
>=20
> Mobile IPv6 involves the use of IP-in-IP tunneling and of IPsec and =
IKE, all of which seems to be covered in Section 2.2. in an adequate =
manner:
>=20
> 2.2.  Internet Layer Protocols
>=20
>   As virtual private networking tunnels are regarded as an =
unacceptably
>   wide attack surface, this document recommends the DEFAULT operating
>   mode for residential IPv6 simple security is to treat IP-in-IP and
>   GRE tunneling protocols as opaque transport layers, i.e. inbound
>   tunnel initiations are denied and outbound tunnel initiations are
>   accepted.  IPsec transport and tunnel modes are explicitly secured =
by
>   definition, so this document recommends the DEFAULT operating mode
>   permit IPsec and Internet Key Exchange (IKE) flows to pass without
>   filtering.
>=20
> Mobile IPv6 also involves the use of the Mobility Header, which seems =
to be appropriately covered by the recommendation of Section 3.2.2.:
>=20
> 3.2.2.  Upper-layer Transport Protocols
>=20
>   Residential IPv6 gateways are not expected to prohibit the use of
>   applications to be developed using future upper-layer transport
>   protocols.  In particular, transport protocols not otherwise
>   discussed in subsequent sections of this document are expected to be
>   treated consistently, i.e. as having connection-free semantics and =
no
>   special requirements to inspect the transport headers.
>=20
>   In general, upper-layer transport filter state records are expected
>   to be created when an interior endpoint sends a packet to an =
exterior
>   address.  The filter allocates (or reuses) a record for the duration
>   of communications, with an idle timer to delete the state record =
when
>   no further communications are detected.
>=20
>   REC-10: Filter state records for generic upper-layer transport
>   protocols MUST BE indexable by a 3-tuple comprising the interior =
node
>   address, the exterior node address and the upper-layer transport
>   protocol identifier.
>=20
>   REC-11: Filter state records for generic upper-layer transport
>   protocols MUST NOT be deleted or recycled until an idle timer not
>   less than two minutes has expired without having forwarded a packet
>   matching the state in some configurable amount of time.  By DEFAULT,
>   the idle timer for such state records is five minutes.
>=20
> However MIPv6 also relies on the use of a degenerated tunneling =
mechanism between a Mobile Node and its corresponds nodes. This =
tunneling involves the use of the Routing Header Type 2 and of the Home =
Address destination option, which are not covered in the document.=20
>=20
> In practice I believe this type of tunnel should be treated as =
IP-in-IP tunnels, but this is currently not the case. The issues is as =
follows:
>=20
> Outbound packets sent in the tunnel are sent from the Mobile Node =
Care-of Address and with a Home Address destination option -- so it =
seems that there is no problem for those, although we might want to be =
explicit.
>=20
> However inbound packets corresponding to an outbound initiated tunnel =
should be accepted as well (as for IP-in-IP), but these packets will be =
destined to the Home Address and carrying the Care-of Address in the =
Routing Header Type 2, so they will not be handled properly absent an =
explicit recommendation that the CPE tracks MIPv6 HoA/RH2 degenerated =
tunnels.
>=20
> I believe we should cover MIPv6 adequately in this specification by =
adding explicit tracking of outbound initiated MIPv6 HoA/RH2 degenerated =
tunnels.=20
>=20
> [ The MEXT WG has two documents specifying firewall behavior for MIPv6 =
that could be used as a starting point for text to be included in this =
spec -- see =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mext-firewall-vendor-02 and =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mext-firewall-admin-02 ]
>=20
> What do people think?
>=20
> --julien
>=20
>=20
>=20

http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 10:18:54 2010
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 13:15:15 -0400
Subject: Re: FYI:  DNSOPS presentation
From: Jason Livingood 
To: Tore Anderson 
CC: IPv6 Operations 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: FYI:  DNSOPS presentation
Thread-Index: AcrgrQrhp8Hx07ksA0acCzs4suGqxQ==
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>>> I find it quite puzzling that you, just a few weeks later, claim that n=
o
>>> data about this problem has been shared with the community.
>>=20
>> I didn't write that email - which may explain your puzzlement.  ;-)
>=20
> =ABFrom: Jason Livingood =BB
> -- http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dnsop/current/msg08383.html
>=20
> If you didn't send that message, who did?

Um - you did.  I copied and pasted in a message you sent to the list, hopin=
g
to hear input from others.

Jason




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 10:46:54 2010
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Subject: Re: WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt
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On Apr 20, 2010, at 09:17, Laganier, Julien wrote:
>=20
> I believe we should cover MIPv6 adequately in this specification by =
adding explicit tracking of outbound initiated MIPv6 HoA/RH2 degenerated =
tunnels.=20
>=20
> [ The MEXT WG has two documents specifying firewall behavior for MIPv6 =
that could be used as a starting point for text to be included in this =
spec -- see =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mext-firewall-vendor-02 and =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mext-firewall-admin-02 ]

This is an important technical point.  I will review those drafts and =
send a revision to I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security shortly.


--
james woodyatt 
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 11:02:03 2010
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Subject: Re: I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10
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On Apr 20, 2010, at 06:27, Robert Moskowitz wrote:

> HIP is on track to be reved for standards track.  It is assigned =
Protocol number 139, and should be treated by cpe-simple-security the =
same as IKE.  I will offer my best effort at text below.

I agree.  If no one objects, I will import the suggested amendments.


--
james woodyatt 
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 14:31:14 2010
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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:27:25 -0700
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for  draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Rajeev Koodli 
To:  =?ISO-8859-1?B?UultaQ==?= =?ISO-8859-1?B?IERlc3By6XM=?= 
CC: Cameron Byrne , Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations 
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On 4/20/10 2:42 AM, "R=E9mi Despr=E9s"  wrote:

>> It's both: no IPv4 connectivity, and IPv6 - IPv4 interworking.
>=20
> OK, this is a vocabulary problem.
> (To me, NAT64s provide IPv4 connectivity to hosts that are IPv6-only enab=
led.)
>=20
>> Dual-stack deployments do not have either of these.
>=20
> Here, I am confused.
> In my understanding, dual stack everywhere provides IPv4 connectivity.
>=20

Right. I meant Dual-stack deployments *do not* have "*no* IPv4 connectivity
&& IPv6-IPv4 interworking" considerations.

>>=20
>> Well, someone has to start. There are arguments on why some want to do
>> IPv6-only in mobile networks.
>=20
> I understand the argument about a single routing family in the access net=
work,
> and agree with it.
> But like 6rd permits public IPv6 across IPv4-only infrastructures, revers=
ed
> 6rd (say 4rd) permits to offer public IPv4 (typically port-restricted) ac=
ross
> IPv6-only infrastructures.
>=20
> Since LTE handsets are new, having in them the simple support of 4rd shou=
ldn't
> be a big deal, and AFAIKT would avoid, with operators that also support 4=
rd
> all problems associated with IPv4-IPv6 translations.
> It is clear that, until an easy to read and complete enough description o=
f 4rd
> is available, entering into more details is difficult.
> I should therefore concentrate on writing it.
>    =20

Okay.

>> However, I do believe that there is a case for IPv6-only deployments fro=
m a
>> variety of angles, including - private IPv4 address exhaustion, side eff=
ects
>> of overlapped addresses etc., investments in NAT44, speedier transition =
to
>> IPv6 and so on. This does have costs associated with it, as you point ou=
t
>> above.
>=20
> If you agree, we can resume the discussion when the 4rd description is
> available.
>=20

Okay.

>> It may be worthwhile to refer to NAT64+DNS64 considerations to an
>> appropriate BEHAVE document?
>=20
> Maybe, but your draft seems a good place to start with.
>=20

I was wondering if these issues are already documented somewhere..

>> Again, I would point out that the ID is not intending to prefer IPv6-onl=
y
>> over Dual-stack. The latter is the default, the former should be a choic=
e,
>> at least for some. I will clarify..
>=20
> Thanks for this discussion.

Welcome.

-Rajeev


> RD



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Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2010 14:29:33 -0700
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
From: Rajeev Koodli 
To: , 
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On 4/19/10 11:50 PM, "teemu.savolainen@nokia.com"
 wrote:

>>> Right, some hosts may, but not all. Especially those that don't do
>> DHCP for 3GPP.
>> 
>> What about the laptops with built-in 3G/4G or using UE as a modem?
> 
> I don't know much about how that interface usually goes (PPP or
> DHCP+Ethernet), but sure laptops could be modified e.g. by driver updates(?).
> But then I don't know about laptop OS'es capability for doing DHCPv4 on-demand
> (I would expect the laptop OS'es would rather try to keep IPv4 address
> allocated all the time).
> 

We should make this distinction (laptops, UE-only). Laptop OS's do support
DHCP obviously. 

-Rajeev


>>> Yes, but this is *may* per 3GPP TS 23.401. Your draft should be more
>> explicit
>>> in telling that the percentage of host population that actually
>> implements the
>>> *may* part is unknown for time being.
>> 
>> I would rather say that DHCP is optional but a provider may require it
>> to be used.
> 
> Right, consumers often has this power over producers..
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Teemu



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 15:16:18 2010
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From: joel jaeggli 
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To: Rajeev Koodli 
CC: teemu.savolainen@nokia.com, v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: New Version Notification for draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02
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On 4/20/2010 2:29 PM, Rajeev Koodli wrote:
>
>
> On 4/19/10 11:50 PM, "teemu.savolainen@nokia.com"
>   wrote:
>
>>>> Right, some hosts may, but not all. Especially those that don't do
>>> DHCP for 3GPP.
>>>
>>> What about the laptops with built-in 3G/4G or using UE as a modem?
>>
>> I don't know much about how that interface usually goes (PPP or
>> DHCP+Ethernet), but sure laptops could be modified e.g. by driver updates(?).
>> But then I don't know about laptop OS'es capability for doing DHCPv4 on-demand
>> (I would expect the laptop OS'es would rather try to keep IPv4 address
>> allocated all the time).

There's traditional tethering vs the cpe approach, at the point where 
the handset simply acts a a router, maintenance of the pdp context(s) 
and indeed the whole air interface is solely at the discretion of the 
handset/router, and the PC is invisble in that equation.

>
> We should make this distinction (laptops, UE-only). Laptop OS's do support
> DHCP obviously.
>
> -Rajeev
>
>
>>>> Yes, but this is *may* per 3GPP TS 23.401. Your draft should be more
>>> explicit
>>>> in telling that the percentage of host population that actually
>>> implements the
>>>> *may* part is unknown for time being.
>>>
>>> I would rather say that DHCP is optional but a provider may require it
>>> to be used.
>>
>> Right, consumers often has this power over producers..
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Teemu
>
>



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 20 23:37:26 2010
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From: Tore Anderson 
Organization: Redpill Linpro AS
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To: Jason Livingood 
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Subject: Re: FYI:  DNSOPS presentation
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* Jason Livingood

> I copied and pasted in a message you sent to the list, hoping to hear
> input from others.

Hi again, Jason.  Perhaps I was being unclear in my initial response to
you yesterday.  Allow me try again:

- In [1], you post a message quoting data elaborating on the causes of
  IPv6 client loss as observed from a content provider's point of view.
- In [2], a few weeks later, you claim that no public data on IPv6
  client loss exists.

It appears to me that you needed to look no further than in your own
sent-mail folder to find examples of such data, so it is your claim of
this data being non-existent that puzzles me.

[1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dnsop/current/msg08383.html
[2] http://www.comcast6.net/IPv6_DNS_Whitelisting_Concerns_20100416.pdf

Best regards,
-- 
Tore Anderson
Redpill Linpro AS - http://www.redpill-linpro.com/
Tel: +47 21 54 41 27


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 21 03:23:04 2010
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:17:29 +0800
From: Tina TSOU 
Subject: Ping...//Re: Questions on RFC 4293 Management Information Base for the Internet Protocol (IP)
To: ipv6@ietf.org, v6ops@ops.ietf.org, Bob Hinden , Dan Romascanu , fenner@fenron.com, fenner@gmail.com, dthaler@microsoft.com, brian@innovationslab.net, brian.haberman@jhuapl.edu, sar@iwl.com
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This is a multi-part message in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_mtwebJPgsrFteO9ua1F53w)
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No answer from anywhere, even the State of Confusion...

B. R.
Tina
http://tinatsou.weebly.com/contact.html

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Tina TSOU 
  To: ipv6@ietf.org ; v6ops@ops.ietf.org ; Bob Hinden ; Dan Romascanu ; fenner@fenron.com ; fenner@gmail.com ; dthaler@microsoft.com ; brian@innovationslab.net ; brian.haberman@jhuapl.edu ; sar@iwl.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 11:11 AM
  Subject: Questions on RFC 4293 Management Information Base for the Internet Protocol (IP)


  Hi all,
  In RFC 4293,
  - ipAddressTable is described as writable, this table uses address
  as index, but the critical information for configuring address, the
  address prefix ipAddressPrefix node is read-only. It seems
  contradict to me.
  This table uses address as index, but the public network and VPN
  may have exactly the same IP address. This table does not
  explicitly say whether it only supports public network. If
  supporting VPN at the same time, there might occur the following
  case: only on address is displayed among the same IP addresses.

  ipAddressTable OBJECT-TYPE
     SYNTAX     SEQUENCE OF IpAddressEntry
     MAX-ACCESS not-accessible
     STATUS     current
     DESCRIPTION
            "This table contains addressing information relevant to the
             entity's interfaces.
             This table does not contain multicast address information.
             Tables for such information should be contained in multicast
             specific MIBs, such as RFC 3019.
             While this table is writable, the user will note that
             several objects, such as ipAddressOrigin, are not.  The
             intention in allowing a user to write to this table is to
             allow them to add or remove any entry that isn't
             permanent.  The user should be allowed to modify objects
             and entries when that would not cause inconsistencies
             within the table.  Allowing write access to objects, such
             as ipAddressOrigin, could allow a user to insert an entry
             and then label it incorrectly.
  ipAddressPrefix OBJECT-TYPE
     SYNTAX     RowPointer
     MAX-ACCESS read-only
     STATUS     current
     DESCRIPTION
            "A pointer to the row in the prefix table to which this
             address belongs.  May be { 0 0 } if there is no such row."
     DEFVAL { zeroDotZero }
     ::= { ipAddressEntry 5 }


  B. R.
  Tina
  http://tinatsou.weebly.com/contact.html

--Boundary_(ID_mtwebJPgsrFteO9ua1F53w)
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No answer from anywhere, even the State of 
Confusion...


 




  
----- Original Message ----- 

  
From: 
  Tina TSOU 

  
  
Sent: Tuesday, April 20, 2010 11:11 
  AM

  
Subject: Questions on RFC 4293 Management 
  Information Base for the Internet Protocol (IP)

  


  
Hi all,

  
In RFC 4293,
- ipAddressTable is described as 
  writable, this table uses address
as index, but the critical information 
  for configuring address, the
address prefix ipAddressPrefix node is 
  read-only. It seems
contradict to me.
This table uses address as index, 
  but the public network and VPN
may have exactly the same IP address. This 
  table does not
explicitly say whether it only supports public network. 
  If
supporting VPN at the same time, there might occur the 
  following
case: only on address is displayed among the same IP 
  addresses.

  
ipAddressTable OBJECT-TYPE
   
  SYNTAX     SEQUENCE OF IpAddressEntry
   
  MAX-ACCESS not-accessible
   STATUS     
  current
   
  DESCRIPTION
          "This 
  table contains addressing information relevant to 
  the
           entity's 
  interfaces.
           
  This table does not contain multicast address 
  information.
           
  Tables for such information should be contained in 
  multicast
           
  specific MIBs, such as RFC 
  3019.
           While 
  this table is writable, the user will note 
  that
           several 
  objects, such as ipAddressOrigin, are not.  
  The
           intention 
  in allowing a user to write to this table is 
  to
           allow them 
  to add or remove any entry that 
  isn't
           
  permanent.  The user should be allowed to modify 
  objects
           and 
  entries when that would not cause 
  inconsistencies
           
  within the table.  Allowing write access to objects, 
  such
           as 
  ipAddressOrigin, could allow a user to insert an 
  entry
           and then 
  label it incorrectly.
ipAddressPrefix OBJECT-TYPE
   
  SYNTAX     RowPointer
   MAX-ACCESS 
  read-only
   STATUS     
  current
   
  DESCRIPTION
          "A 
  pointer to the row in the prefix table to which 
  this
           address 
  belongs.  May be { 0 0 } if there is no such row."
   DEFVAL 
  { zeroDotZero }
   ::= { ipAddressEntry 5 }

  
 

  


--Boundary_(ID_mtwebJPgsrFteO9ua1F53w)--


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 21 03:54:33 2010
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 20:22:04 +0930
From: Mark Smith 
To: james woodyatt 
Cc: Robert Moskowitz , IPv6 Operations 
Subject: Re: I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10
Message-ID: <20100421202204.502771b0@opy.nosense.org>
In-Reply-To: 
References: <955E4D2B-1212-4CFE-B06B-9B91B66EB7E0@apple.com> <4BCDABC7.9060503@htt-consult.com> 
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On Tue, 20 Apr 2010 10:59:41 -0700
james woodyatt  wrote:

> On Apr 20, 2010, at 06:27, Robert Moskowitz wrote:
> 
> > HIP is on track to be reved for standards track.  It is assigned Protocol number 139, and should be treated by cpe-simple-security the same as IKE.  I will offer my best effort at text below.
> 
> I agree.  If no one objects, I will import the suggested amendments.
> 

Would it be possible to make these rules a bit more general, such that
they'd automatically cover things like IPsec, HIP or any other current
(e.g. ssh) or future protocols that are authenticated, without
nominating the protocols specifically? It seems to me that it is only
really luck rather than good planning that there is the opportunity to
add HIP in as a specified exception at this time.

Regards,
Mark.



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 21 08:44:08 2010
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Subject: Re: Questions on RFC 4293 Management Information Base for the  Internet Protocol (IP)
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Cc: Tina TSOU , Bill Fenner , Brian Haberman , IETF IPv6 Mailing List , sar@iwl.com, Bob Hinden , Dave Thaler , IPv6 v6ops , Brian Haberman 
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"we didn't pay enough attention" is a very kind way to put it. The =
entire SNMP exercise was about monitoring; those like me who tried to =
make things writable pushed rocks uphill politically. That, and the =
experience of trying to make event triggered management rather than =
poll-driven management, is the major reason that I, personally, don't =
want to have anything to do with network management in the IETF.

On Apr 21, 2010, at 4:53 AM, Bill Fenner wrote:

> [sorry if you get duplicates, replying from an address that actually
> *works* this time]
>=20
> 2010/4/19 Tina TSOU :
>> In RFC 4293,
>> - ipAddressTable is described as writable, this table uses address
>> as index, but the critical information for configuring address, the
>> address prefix ipAddressPrefix node is read-only. It seems
>> contradict to me.
>=20
> Worse, the whole ipAddressPrefixTable is read-only, so you can't
> insert a new row to try to point to.  This seems like we didn't pay
> enough attention to making these configurable via SNMP.
>=20
>> This table uses address as index, but the public network and VPN
>> may have exactly the same IP address. This table does not
>> explicitly say whether it only supports public network.
>=20
> As with most MIBs, if you have multiple contexts on the device, you
> need multiple instances of the MIB, usually using SNMPv3 contexts and
> the entLogicalTable to associate SNMPv2 communities if needed.
>=20
> Bill
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 21 09:57:25 2010
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 18:33:17 +0200 (CEST)
From: Mohacsi Janos 
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To: "Laganier, Julien" 
cc: Fred Baker , IPv6 v6ops ,  "draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security@tools.ietf.org" 
Subject: RE: WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt 
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On Tue, 20 Apr 2010, Laganier, Julien wrote:

> However MIPv6 also relies on the use of a degenerated tunneling 
> mechanism between a Mobile Node and its corresponds nodes. This 
> tunneling involves the use of the Routing Header Type 2 and of the Home 
> Address destination option, which are not covered in the document.
>
> In practice I believe this type of tunnel should be treated as IP-in-IP 
> tunnels, but this is currently not the case. The issues is as follows:
>
> Outbound packets sent in the tunnel are sent from the Mobile Node 
> Care-of Address and with a Home Address destination option -- so it 
> seems that there is no problem for those, although we might want to be 
> explicit.
>
> However inbound packets corresponding to an outbound initiated tunnel 
> should be accepted as well (as for IP-in-IP), but these packets will be 
> destined to the Home Address and carrying the Care-of Address in the 
> Routing Header Type 2, so they will not be handled properly absent an 
> explicit recommendation that the CPE tracks MIPv6 HoA/RH2 degenerated 
> tunnels.
>
> I believe we should cover MIPv6 adequately in this specification by 
> adding explicit tracking of outbound initiated MIPv6 HoA/RH2 degenerated 
> tunnels.
>
> [ The MEXT WG has two documents specifying firewall behavior for MIPv6 
> that could be used as a starting point for text to be included in this 
> spec -- see 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mext-firewall-vendor-02 and 
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mext-firewall-admin-02 ]
>
> What do people think?

Is it still applies to "CPE simple security"?  In my opinion, vendor might 
decide implement these additional settings... 
Best Regards,

Janos Mohacsi
Head of HBONE+ project
Network Engineer, Deputy Director of Network Planning and Projects
NIIF/HUNGARNET, HUNGARY
Key 70EF9882: DEC2 C685 1ED4 C95A 145F  4300 6F64 7B00 70EF 9882



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 21 10:04:18 2010
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From: "Laganier, Julien" 
To: Mohacsi Janos 
CC: IPv6 v6ops , "draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security@tools.ietf.org" 
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 09:46:14 -0700
Subject: RE: WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt 
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Mohacsi Janos wrote:
>
> Laganier, Julien wrote:
> >=20
> > I believe we should cover MIPv6 adequately in this specification by
> > adding explicit tracking of outbound initiated MIPv6 HoA/RH2
> degenerated
> > tunnels.
> >
> > [ The MEXT WG has two documents specifying firewall behavior for
> > MIPv6 that could be used as a starting point for text to be included
> > in this spec -- see
> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mext-firewall-vendor-02 and
> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-mext-firewall-admin-02 ]
> >
> > What do people think?
>=20
> Is it still applies to "CPE simple security"?  In my opinion, vendor
> might decide implement these additional settings...

I do not think that recommending that a typical off-the-shelf IPv6 CPE brea=
ks MIPv6 is an option...

--julien


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 21 10:09:26 2010
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From: Mohacsi Janos 
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To: =?ISO-8859-15?Q?R=E9mi_Despr=E9s?= 
cc: James Woodyatt , Fred Baker ,  IPv6 v6ops 
Subject: Re: WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt 
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  This message is in MIME format.  The first part should be readable text,
  while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools.

--0-1013050841-1271868882=:74067
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Hi Remi,

I feel to be asked  as a co-author of the RFC 4890.

On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, Rémi Després wrote:

> Hi James,
> 
> After a review of what RFC 4890 says, the new section 3.2.1 on ICMPv6 needs in my understanding to be modified.
> 
> CURRENT 3.2.1 TEXT: "Recommendations for filtering ICMPv6 messages in firewall devices are described separately in
> [RFC4890] and apply generally to residential gateways as to any class of router.  No additional recommendations are made
> here, but it's important to note that Destination Unreachable and Packet Too Big errors corresponding to filtering states
> for all upper-layer transport protocols are important to the proper function of the Internet."
> 
> PROBLEM: 
> RFC 4890 recommends that NO Destination Unreachable and NO Packet Too Big error messages be dropped (sec 4.3.1).
> If the intent is that incoming DU or PTB messages that don't match any filtering state should be dropped, this should then
> be expressed as an *additional* recommendation. 
> (If the intent is different, I have difficulty understanding it.)


In the RFC 4890 we seperated the transit traffic (4.3) and the traffic 
destined (4.4) to the firewall. At that time it was written IPv6 capable 
state inspection firewalls was rare (see section 4.1) therefore we 
recommended NOT to drop transit destination unreachable and and packet too 
big errors icmpv6 packets..

As described in section 4.1 of RFC 4890:
"Depending on the capabilities of the firewall being configured, it
    may be possible for the firewall to maintain state about packets
.....
This state may allow the firewall to perform more precise
    checks based on this state, and to apply limits on the number of
    ICMPv6 packets accepted incoming or outgoing as a result of a packet
    traveling in the opposite direction.
"

So this might be defined more clearly in RFC 4890....


> 
> 
> PROPOSAL: "Recommendations for filtering ICMPv6 messages in firewall devices are described separately in [RFC4890] and
> apply to residential gateways, with the additional recommendation that incoming Destination Unreachable and  Packet Too Big
> error messages that don't match any filtering state should be dropped."

This way it is more understandable....

Best Regards,

 		Janos Mohacsi
--0-1013050841-1271868882=:74067--


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 21 10:24:16 2010
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Cc: James Woodyatt , Fred Baker , IPv6 v6ops 
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References: <118FE8EC-41DF-4907-AE1C-2B7185477D64@cisco.com>  
To: Mohacsi Janos 
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Le 21 avr. 2010 =E0 18:54, Mohacsi Janos a =E9crit :

> Hi Remi,
>=20
> I feel to be asked  as a co-author of the RFC 4890.
>=20
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2010, R=E9mi Despr=E9s wrote:
> ...
>=20
>> PROPOSAL: "Recommendations for filtering ICMPv6 messages in firewall =
devices are described separately in [RFC4890] and
>> apply to residential gateways, with the additional recommendation =
that incoming Destination Unreachable and  Packet Too Big
>> error messages that don't match any filtering state should be =
dropped."
>=20
> This way it is more understandable....

I am glad it helps.
Best regards.
RD




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 21 10:38:01 2010
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Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2010 13:24:34 -0400
Subject: Re: FYI:  DNSOPS presentation
From: Jason Livingood 
To: Tore Anderson 
CC: IPv6 Operations 
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Thread-Topic: FYI:  DNSOPS presentation
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This is getting a little pointless to debate.  While I am happy that you
have provided data, across the entirety of the public Internet I think we
could use a little more.  The point I was making was that other than that
one post with data solely from you, I haven't seen a wave of data coming
out.  I do not mean to discount the value of your data or that you have
shared, but I still feel we need data from more than just you if the matter
is to move ahead.  I'm sure others, including us, are doing data gathering.
My only point was that none of that has come to fruition as of yet.

Jason


On 4/21/10 2:31 AM, "Tore Anderson" 
wrote:

> * Jason Livingood
> 
>> I copied and pasted in a message you sent to the list, hoping to hear
>> input from others.
> 
> Hi again, Jason.  Perhaps I was being unclear in my initial response to
> you yesterday.  Allow me try again:
> 
> - In [1], you post a message quoting data elaborating on the causes of
>   IPv6 client loss as observed from a content provider's point of view.
> - In [2], a few weeks later, you claim that no public data on IPv6
>   client loss exists.
> 
> It appears to me that you needed to look no further than in your own
> sent-mail folder to find examples of such data, so it is your claim of
> this data being non-existent that puzzles me.
> 
> [1] http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/dnsop/current/msg08383.html
> [2] http://www.comcast6.net/IPv6_DNS_Whitelisting_Concerns_20100416.pdf
> 
> Best regards,



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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 22 04:56:43 2010
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From: Timothy Baldwin 
Subject: Re: WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt
Followup-To: gmane.ietf.v6ops
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Fred Baker wrote:

> As agreed at the last IETF meeting, I am opening a two week WGLC of
> draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt. Please read the document,
> comment to this list on matters of substance, and send nits
> (spelling/grammar, word choice, sentence structure comments) to the
> authors.

Section 3.4. Passive Listeners

Teredo could be mentioned alongside STUN as a means of transversing IPv4 
NAT, it is significant in that a IPv6 application may have better 
connectivity behind an IPv4 NAT than behind simple security.

"something similar to NAT-PMP and UPnP-IGD but without actually supporting 
NAT needs to be deployed."

It doesn't need to be protocol to configure the gateway, any solution that 
allows passive listeners to opt in will suffice. Since there is no 
requirement to protect the host IP stack (plenty of other holes) a packet 
mangling scheme could used. An idea:


Instead of dropping, and possibly sending an ICMP Destination Unreachable 
Message, a gateway should instead insert a Firewall header intp the packet, 
if there is Hop-by-Hop Options header the Firewall header should be inserted 
immediately after the Hop-by-Hop Options header, otherwise the Firewall 
header must be inserted immediately after the IPv6 header. The Next Header 
value for a Firewall Header is TBD.

+---------------+----------------------------------------+
|  Next Header  |  Modified EUI-64 of gateway (8 bytes)  |
+---------------+----------------------------------------+

If the forwarded packet results in a ICMP Error packet, the gateway MUST 
remove any Firewall header that it inserted. If the packet is a Packet Too 
Big Message the MTU value must be reduced by 9, to account for the size of 
the Firewall header. If the packet is a Parameter Problem Message the 
pointer must be adjusted accordingly if it does not refer to the Firewall 
header being removed, if it does the packet must be converted to a ICMP 
Destination Unreachable Message, with a code of 1 - administratively 
prohibited.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 22 09:43:22 2010
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Date: Thu, 22 Apr 2010 17:38:11 +0100
From: Timothy Baldwin 
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Subject: Re: I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10
References: <955E4D2B-1212-4CFE-B06B-9B91B66EB7E0@apple.com>	<4BCDABC7.9060503@htt-consult.com>	 <20100421202204.502771b0@opy.nosense.org>
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Mark Smith wrote:
> Would it be possible to make these rules a bit more general, such that
> they'd automatically cover things like IPsec, HIP or any other current
> (e.g. ssh) or future protocols that are authenticated, without
> nominating the protocols specifically?
There are many ssh servers with default or poorly chosen passwords, so
that might not be a good idea.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 22 10:08:18 2010
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To: Timothy Baldwin 
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References: <955E4D2B-1212-4CFE-B06B-9B91B66EB7E0@apple.com>	<4BCDABC7.9060503@htt-consult.com>	 <20100421202204.502771b0@opy.nosense.org> <4BD07B73.9020509@members.leeds.ac.uk>
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On 4/22/10 6:38 PM, Timothy Baldwin wrote:
> Mark Smith wrote:
>> Would it be possible to make these rules a bit more general, such that
>> they'd automatically cover things like IPsec, HIP or any other current
>> (e.g. ssh) or future protocols that are authenticated, without
>> nominating the protocols specifically?

Being able to adapt to future protocols implies that there be a
mechanism to communicate this adaptation. simple-security doesn't have
that.

> There are many ssh servers with default or poorly chosen passwords, so
> that might not be a good idea.

So Bob's bad password means Alice has to figure out how to configure a
pinhole for ssh because she wants her ssh to be reachable from the
Internet. Hardly fair, particularly when we don't even know what the
intrusion rate would be for a given service/protocol over IPv6.

Modern IPS firewalls actually have provisions for sniffing and blocking
login attempts from the outside using poor/default passwords. But this
isn't foolproof, and requires digging deeply into packets.

It would be really nice if applications would be easily configurable for
what IPv6 address scope they could use. Then when you turn on SSH, you
are simply asked whether it should be made available on the Internet or not.

- Mark



> 
> 
> 
> 



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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 22 12:34:30 2010
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Subject: Re: WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt
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On Apr 21, 2010, at 17:10, Timothy Baldwin wrote:
>=20
> Instead of dropping, and possibly sending an ICMP Destination =
Unreachable=20
> Message, a gateway should instead insert a Firewall header intp the =
packet,=20

The design team considered and rejected this category of ideas.  Marking =
unsolicited and insecure traffic before forwarding it into the interior =
defeats the intended purpose of IPv6 Simple Security, which is =
*explicitly* to block it entirely.  There has been much working group =
discussion already on this topic, and the sense of the working group as =
I understand it is that the distinction between blocking and marking is =
a feature of this draft.  It's quite deliberate.

I believe proposals to mark instead of block to be now out of scope for =
I-D.ietf-v6op-cpe-simple-security.  I think a better place for that =
discussion would be in the context of I-D.vyncke-advanced-ipv6-security, =
which is properly positioned as an alternative to this draft.

> Teredo could be mentioned alongside STUN as a means of transversing =
IPv4=20
> NAT, it is significant in that a IPv6 application may have better=20
> connectivity behind an IPv4 NAT than behind simple security.

I'd rather not explicitly encourage the use of Teredo in a =
non-transitional mode.  Not without seeing the appropriate revisions to =
the Teredo specification published as Standard Track to make it clear =
that Teredo is now expected to be used in non-transitional networks for =
the purpose of improving transparency in the face of IPv6 simple =
security filtering.  I don't see that happening.  Do you?


--
james woodyatt 
member of technical staff, communications engineering




From orrison@ambcnfei.die.net  Thu Apr 22 22:59:43 2010
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From v6ops-archive@ietf.org  Fri Apr 23 00:25:58 2010
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 23 01:36:51 2010
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From: Konrad Rosenbaum 
To: Mark Townsley , IPv6 Operations 
Subject: Re: I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10
Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 09:30:48 +0100
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On Thursday 22 April 2010, Mark Townsley wrote:
> On 4/22/10 6:38 PM, Timothy Baldwin wrote:
> > There are many ssh servers with default or poorly chosen passwords, so
> > that might not be a good idea.
>
> So Bob's bad password means Alice has to figure out how to configure a
> pinhole for ssh because she wants her ssh to be reachable from the
> Internet.

On the other hand: Alices (I would call Alice a geek - she is using ssh=20
after all) desire to have a reachable ssh port means that Bob (let's assume=
=20
he knows nothing about computing, but is a very fine chef) is vulnerable to=
=20
attacks. Just because nobody told him to click a specific button that he=20
knew nothing about.

I would assume Alice capable of opening a port, but would guess Bob gets=20
very apprehensive when he is told to configure his home router.

> Hardly fair, particularly when we don't even know what the=20
> intrusion rate would be for a given service/protocol over IPv6.

I think we can assume it to grow proportionately with the growth of IPv6 -=
=20
it is practically nil now because attackers don't consider IPv6 gurus dumb=
=20
enough to have default passwords on open ssh ports.

> Modern IPS firewalls actually have provisions for sniffing and blocking
> login attempts from the outside using poor/default passwords. But this
> isn't foolproof, and requires digging deeply into packets.

I don't think the master chef Bob would have an IPS firewall - all he wante=
d=20
was to connect his kitchen computer to this Internet thing because we heard=
=20
there were good recipes out there.

> It would be really nice if applications would be easily configurable for
> what IPv6 address scope they could use. Then when you turn on SSH, you
> are simply asked whether it should be made available on the Internet or
> not.

Open a feature request on your favorite bugzilla... ;-)

More realistically: there will always be thousands of very popular=20
applications out there with insecure defaults. I spent the last ten years=20
(that's my entire career) trying to educate my programmer colleagues and=20
friends about secure programming. I think I can count the ones I've reached=
=20
on one hand - either I'm a bad teacher or it is not a popular topic.



	Konrad

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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 23 08:49:30 2010
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Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 01:12:35 +0930
From: Mark Smith 
To: Timothy Baldwin 
Cc: IPv6 Operations 
Subject: Re: I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10
Message-ID: <20100424011235.11521c3e@opy.nosense.org>
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On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 17:38:11 +0100
Timothy Baldwin  wrote:

> Mark Smith wrote:
> > Would it be possible to make these rules a bit more general, such that
> > they'd automatically cover things like IPsec, HIP or any other current
> > (e.g. ssh) or future protocols that are authenticated, without
> > nominating the protocols specifically?
> There are many ssh servers with default or poorly chosen passwords, so
> that might not be a good idea.
> 

There are, of course, always corner cases. Passwords in themselves
aren't fundamentally very good, but in most cases we seem to persist
them them. Physical tokens, as an example of 2 factor authentication,
are a relative rarity.

CPE can't protect their users from being stupid when picking passwords.
As much as they shouldn't really have to, that role is best performed by
the point of entry of the password itself. If a protocol has the
property of authentication, then I think the CPE should trust it, and
make issues such as password quality the responsibility of the
end-nodes/end-points.

Regards,
Mark.



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 23 08:54:25 2010
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From: Mark Smith 
To: Mark Townsley 
Cc: Timothy Baldwin , IPv6 Operations 
Subject: Re: I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10
Message-ID: <20100424012241.056cc177@opy.nosense.org>
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On Thu, 22 Apr 2010 19:05:34 +0200
Mark Townsley  wrote:

> On 4/22/10 6:38 PM, Timothy Baldwin wrote:
> > Mark Smith wrote:
> >> Would it be possible to make these rules a bit more general, such that
> >> they'd automatically cover things like IPsec, HIP or any other current
> >> (e.g. ssh) or future protocols that are authenticated, without
> >> nominating the protocols specifically?
> 
> Being able to adapt to future protocols implies that there be a
> mechanism to communicate this adaptation. simple-security doesn't have
> that.

I think that if there is a statement of baseline expected security
for protocols, then a CPE vendor could add it as a default allow.
e.g. If XYZ security protocol, invented in 2015, and operating over UDP
port ABC, has end-to-end integrity as one it's properties, then vendors
who make CPE that is compliant with this draft can add UDP port ABC to
the list of permitted end-to-end protocols in 2015/2016. I think it is
possible to do that without being tied to specifying particular
protocols, as long as the required security properties are specified.
Otherwise we're in the trap of revising this draft/RFC for every new
protocol that has end-to-end integrity.

Regards,
Mark.

> 
> > There are many ssh servers with default or poorly chosen passwords, so
> > that might not be a good idea.
> 
> So Bob's bad password means Alice has to figure out how to configure a
> pinhole for ssh because she wants her ssh to be reachable from the
> Internet. Hardly fair, particularly when we don't even know what the
> intrusion rate would be for a given service/protocol over IPv6.
> 
> Modern IPS firewalls actually have provisions for sniffing and blocking
> login attempts from the outside using poor/default passwords. But this
> isn't foolproof, and requires digging deeply into packets.
> 
> It would be really nice if applications would be easily configurable for
> what IPv6 address scope they could use. Then when you turn on SSH, you
> are simply asked whether it should be made available on the Internet or not.
> 
> - Mark
> 
> 
> 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 


From v6ops-archive@ietf.org  Fri Apr 23 11:52:56 2010
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 23 14:41:22 2010
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Subject: Re: I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10
From: james woodyatt 
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Date: Fri, 23 Apr 2010 14:36:26 -0700
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References: <955E4D2B-1212-4CFE-B06B-9B91B66EB7E0@apple.com> <4BCDABC7.9060503@htt-consult.com>  <20100421202204.502771b0@opy.nosense.org> <4BD07B73.9020509@members.leeds.ac.uk> <4BD081DE.2070204@cisco.com> <20100424012241.056cc177@opy.nosense.org>
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On Apr 23, 2010, at 08:52 , Mark Smith wrote:
>=20
> Otherwise we're in the trap of revising this draft/RFC for every new =
protocol that has end-to-end integrity.

Alas, I don't think we will quickly arrive at a consensus on more =
general language.

I'm adding HIP, and I'm clarifying the intent not to break MIPv6, =
because I think there won't be any objection to either of those changes. =
 I'm going to exercise editorial judgment and hold off on attempting to =
make a more generalized statement about unspecified future protocols.  I =
think the working group is interested in keeping =
I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security simple.  More advanced =
considerations, I would say, ought to be deferred for later publication.


--
james woodyatt 
member of technical staff, communications engineering




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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sat Apr 24 00:36:16 2010
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Subject: I-D Action:draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-11.txt 
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--NextPart

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.


	Title           : Recommended Simple Security Capabilities in Customer Premises Equipment for Providing Residential IPv6 Internet Service
	Author(s)       : J. Woodyatt
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-11.txt
	Pages           : 33
	Date            : 2010-04-24

This document identifies a set of recommendations for the makers of
devices describing how to provide for "simple security" capabilities
at the perimeter of local-area IPv6 networks in Internet-enabled
homes and small offices.

A URL for this Internet-Draft is:
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-11.txt

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Date: Sat, 24 Apr 2010 07:09:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Behcet Sarikaya 
Reply-To: Behcet Sarikaya 
Subject: Re: Comments on draft-koodli-ipv6-in-mobile-networks-02.txt
To: Rajeev Koodli 
Cc: IPv6 Operations 
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Hi Rajeev,




> Hi Rajeev,
>   My comments on 
> Section 3.2 NAT 
> Placement in the mobile networks
> 
> This section nicely narrates 
> the story of GI-DS-Lite as the centralized
> NAT versus DS-Lite as the 
> distributed DS-Lite. It reads nicely but I found in
> it too much emphasis 
> on billing and accounting aspects while it lacks emphasis
> on other 
> aspects (more meaty? aspects at least as much as I am 
> interested).

> DS-Lite is not presented as a distributed NAT solution in 
> the document.


I thought it should be.


>Many mobile providers do care for subscriber management. 
> For them, it is
important to be able to do harmonized billing and accounting. 
> With respect
to NAT itself, which introduces binding state between addresses, 
> it is
important to be able to harmonize NAT state with subscriber billing 
> and
accounting.

This is OK as I said before. But it is one kind of consideration when deploying IPv6 in mobile networks. I was asking about some other considerations you have just ignored.

> 
> For example, one very important feature 
> of DS-Lite is to have an IPv6-only
> network thus savings on IPv4 
> addresses. This is not mentioned.
> Next, why currently mobile operators 
> do not have much interest on DS-Lite is
> not 
> mentioned.

>Clarification: this ID is *not* about evaluating pros and cons 
> of each of
the available transition mechanism. It is about considerations 
> that arise
>when deploying IPv6 in mobile networks.

Please see my point above. You mean savings in IPv4 address usage is not a consideration?


>To your point about 
> DS-lite itself, it is perfectly fine in residential
broadband networks. For 
> mobile networks, having a tunnel termination at the
UE (host) is considered 
> undesirable.


Eaxctly. I am asking these types of considerations to be stated in the distributed NAT text.


> The 3GPP TR on IPv6 transition looks at
some of the variants 
> FYI, and that document may be a good place for your
questions. 
> 

Thanks, I know this document.


> 
> On the centralized NAT or GI-DS-Lite, firstly, the 
> identification of
> GI-DS-Lite as the centralized NAT approach is very 
> useful because it was not
> clear reading the GI-DS-Lite draft.
> 
> 
> However, one important aspect of GI-DS-Lite is that it no longer 
> requires an
> IPv6-only network and therefore no IPv4 address savings 
> which is not mentioned
> in the draft.

I did not follow this. Care 
> to elaborate?


GI DS Lite unlike DS Lite is not based on IPv6 only network premise, that is an important consideration when deploying IPv6 in mobile network. I was simplying asking these things to be stated in the centralized NAT discussion.
Also the fact that centralized NAT makes MN to MN communication to take longer paths.



Regards,

Behcet



      


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Subject: Re: [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC4213 (2172)
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From: Fred Baker 
In-Reply-To: <20100425203032.87CDBE07C3@rfc-editor.org>
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 21:34:50 +0100
Cc: Erik Nordmark , bob.gilligan@acm.org, Dan Romascanu , Ron Bonica , Kurt Erik Lindqvist , Fernando Gont , IPv6 v6ops 
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References: <20100425203032.87CDBE07C3@rfc-editor.org>
To: RFC Errata System 
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This sounds like a grammar check. If so, I would suggest "This issue and =
the remaining known threats..."..

On Apr 25, 2010, at 9:30 PM, RFC Errata System wrote:

>=20
> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4213,
> "Basic Transition Mechanisms for IPv6 Hosts and Routers".
>=20
> --------------------------------------
> You may review the report below and at:
> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4213&eid=3D2172
>=20
> --------------------------------------
> Type: Editorial
> Reported by: Fernando Gont 
>=20
> Section: 4
>=20
> Original Text
> -------------
> The issue and the remainder threats are discussed at more length in =
Security Considerations.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Corrected Text
> --------------
> This issue and the remainder threats are discussed at more length in =
Security Considerations.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Notes
> -----
>=20
>=20
> Instructions:
> -------------
> This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary.=20
>=20
> --------------------------------------
> RFC4213 (draft-ietf-v6ops-mech-v2-07)
> --------------------------------------
> Title               : Basic Transition Mechanisms for IPv6 Hosts and =
Routers
> Publication Date    : October 2005
> Author(s)           : E. Nordmark, R. Gilligan
> Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
> Source              : IPv6 Operations
> Area                : Operations and Management
> Stream              : IETF
> Verifying Party     : IESG

http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Sun Apr 25 15:32:32 2010
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Message-ID: <4BD4C1D3.80300@gont.com.ar>
Date: Sun, 25 Apr 2010 19:27:31 -0300
From: Fernando Gont 
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To: Fred Baker 
CC: RFC Errata System ,  Erik Nordmark , bob.gilligan@acm.org, Dan Romascanu ,  Ron Bonica , Kurt Erik Lindqvist ,  IPv6 v6ops 
Subject: Re: [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC4213 (2172)
References: <20100425203032.87CDBE07C3@rfc-editor.org> 
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Hi, Fred,

BTW, the sentence should have ended with "...at more length in the
Security Considerations section".

(i.e., also ad "the" and "section").

Thanks,
Fernando




Fred Baker wrote:
> This sounds like a grammar check. If so, I would suggest "This issue and the remaining known threats..."..
> 
> On Apr 25, 2010, at 9:30 PM, RFC Errata System wrote:
> 
>> The following errata report has been submitted for RFC4213,
>> "Basic Transition Mechanisms for IPv6 Hosts and Routers".
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> You may review the report below and at:
>> http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=4213&eid=2172
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> Type: Editorial
>> Reported by: Fernando Gont 
>>
>> Section: 4
>>
>> Original Text
>> -------------
>> The issue and the remainder threats are discussed at more length in Security Considerations.
>>
>>
>>
>> Corrected Text
>> --------------
>> This issue and the remainder threats are discussed at more length in Security Considerations.
>>
>>
>>
>> Notes
>> -----
>>
>>
>> Instructions:
>> -------------
>> This errata is currently posted as "Reported". If necessary, please
>> use "Reply All" to discuss whether it should be verified or
>> rejected. When a decision is reached, the verifying party (IESG)
>> can log in to change the status and edit the report, if necessary. 
>>
>> --------------------------------------
>> RFC4213 (draft-ietf-v6ops-mech-v2-07)
>> --------------------------------------
>> Title               : Basic Transition Mechanisms for IPv6 Hosts and Routers
>> Publication Date    : October 2005
>> Author(s)           : E. Nordmark, R. Gilligan
>> Category            : PROPOSED STANDARD
>> Source              : IPv6 Operations
>> Area                : Operations and Management
>> Stream              : IETF
>> Verifying Party     : IESG
> 
> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
> 
> 

-- 
Fernando Gont
e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@acm.org
PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1






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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 26 06:11:19 2010
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Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:05:32 +0200
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
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Hi All,

As a follow-up to the discussion, here's some proposed text for the "WAN
side requirements" in Section 4.2:

W-x:    The router MUST orignate RS messages with a source IP address set to
one of the interface's unicast addresses.

Rgds,
Woj.


On 15/04/2010 16:02, "Wojciech Dec"  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Given that RS triggered access appears to be gaining ground (based on the
> latest  draft-krishnan-rs-mark) it would appear that the CPE router draft
> specify a bit more tightly the form of RS messages a CPE sends when connecting
> to a network. 
> RFC4861 section 6.3.7 states:
> " A host sends Router Solicitations to the all-routers multicast
>    address.  The IP source address is set to either one of the
>    interface's unicast addresses or the unspecified address."
> 
> Now, since the source address is very likely to be one of the identifier keys
> for a CPE used for authorization, I would like to propose that an RS sending
> rule be added to the CPE spec which would ensure that the IP source address is
> NEVER the unspecified address, eg:
> 
> The IPv6 CE router MUST use one of its WAN interface unicast addresses when
> sending RS messages.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> -Woj.



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Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:01:44 +0200
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: Philip Homburg 
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On 17/04/2010 11:53, "Philip Homburg"  wrote:

> In your letter dated Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:49:18 +0200 you wrote:
>> Which node needs the link local address of the CPE? The edge router or
>> the access node? (using draft-krishnan-6man-rs-mark-03 terminology)
>> 
>> Woj> Likely both: The edge router is expected to have an address binding
>> table per CPE and so may the access-node.
> 
> Maybe I'm missing something. I would expect the edge router to maintain a
> mapping from prefix to vlan. It can then use normal neighbor discovery to
> find the mac address for a CPE.

That's not what is envisaged in the BBF and SAVI work. The L2-IP binding
would be learned at user authentication time and likely fixed so as to
prevent some rogue user from polluting the binding table.

> 
> The access node is mostly a bridge. But it may have to filter on mac address
> (and prohibit direct CPE-to-CPE communication) to increase security a bit.
>
The main issue is the IP-L2 binding and the ability to establish it when the
user is authenticated. Attempting to patch together such a binding after
authentication is far from being a good thing.

-Woj. 
> 



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 26 06:15:50 2010
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To: Wojciech Dec 
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Philip Homburg 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:01:44 +0200 ."  
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:13:24 +0200
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In your letter dated Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:01:44 +0200 you wrote:
>On 17/04/2010 11:53, "Philip Homburg"  wrote:
>
>> In your letter dated Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:49:18 +0200 you wrote:
>>> Which node needs the link local address of the CPE? The edge router or
>>> the access node? (using draft-krishnan-6man-rs-mark-03 terminology)
>>> 
>>> Woj> Likely both: The edge router is expected to have an address binding
>>> table per CPE and so may the access-node.
>> 
>> Maybe I'm missing something. I would expect the edge router to maintain a
>> mapping from prefix to vlan. It can then use normal neighbor discovery to
>> find the mac address for a CPE.
>
>That's not what is envisaged in the BBF and SAVI work. The L2-IP binding
>would be learned at user authentication time and likely fixed so as to
>prevent some rogue user from polluting the binding table.

The MAC address is available as the source ethernet address in the router
solicitation.

How does having a link-local IPv6 address help?

Unless, with L2-IP binding you mean a binding between the link-local address
and the MAC address. But I'm not quite sure why you would need that.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 26 06:25:14 2010
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Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:21:09 +0200
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: Philip Homburg 
CC: 
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On 26/04/2010 15:13, "Philip Homburg"  wrote:

> In your letter dated Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:01:44 +0200 you wrote:
>> On 17/04/2010 11:53, "Philip Homburg"  wrote:
>> 
>>> In your letter dated Fri, 16 Apr 2010 11:49:18 +0200 you wrote:
>>>> Which node needs the link local address of the CPE? The edge router or
>>>> the access node? (using draft-krishnan-6man-rs-mark-03 terminology)
>>>> 
>>>> Woj> Likely both: The edge router is expected to have an address binding
>>>> table per CPE and so may the access-node.
>>> 
>>> Maybe I'm missing something. I would expect the edge router to maintain a
>>> mapping from prefix to vlan. It can then use normal neighbor discovery to
>>> find the mac address for a CPE.
>> 
>> That's not what is envisaged in the BBF and SAVI work. The L2-IP binding
>> would be learned at user authentication time and likely fixed so as to
>> prevent some rogue user from polluting the binding table.
> 
> The MAC address is available as the source ethernet address in the router
> solicitation.
> 
> How does having a link-local IPv6 address help?

It helps in being able to bind the MAC to an IPv6 address for that
subscriber. Coincidentally, this is exactly what is already in place for v4.

> 
> Unless, with L2-IP binding you mean a binding between the link-local address
> and the MAC address. But I'm not quite sure why you would need that.
> 
Without such a binding, LL spoofing becomes an issue.

-Woj.
> 



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 26 06:37:44 2010
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To: Wojciech Dec 
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Philip Homburg 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:21:09 +0200 ."  
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In your letter dated Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:21:09 +0200 you wrote:
>> The MAC address is available as the source ethernet address in the router
>> solicitation.
>> 
>> How does having a link-local IPv6 address help?
>
>It helps in being able to bind the MAC to an IPv6 address for that
>subscriber. Coincidentally, this is exactly what is already in place for v4.

Why the link local address? 

>Without such a binding, LL spoofing becomes an issue.

Can you be a bit more specific?

IPv4 doesn't have a link local address.

So what kind of traffic do you expect to and from the link-local address.
There is of course the neighbor discovery stuff. But you probably have to
filter that already to avoid customers talking directly to each other
without going through the router.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 26 07:08:54 2010
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Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:06:10 +0200
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: Philip Homburg 
CC: 
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Thread-Topic: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
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On 26/04/2010 15:33, "Philip Homburg"  wrote:

> In your letter dated Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:21:09 +0200 you wrote:
>>> The MAC address is available as the source ethernet address in the router
>>> solicitation.
>>> 
>>> How does having a link-local IPv6 address help?
>> 
>> It helps in being able to bind the MAC to an IPv6 address for that
>> subscriber. Coincidentally, this is exactly what is already in place for v4.
> 
> Why the link local address?

It can be any unicast address.

> 
>> Without such a binding, LL spoofing becomes an issue.
> 
> Can you be a bit more specific?
> 
> IPv4 doesn't have a link local address.

In IPv4 the binding is DHCP derived, something that is a bit harder to
assume with IPv6.
BTW IPv4 does have LLs too, but they happen not to be commonly used (at
least not by CPEs).

> 
> So what kind of traffic do you expect to and from the link-local address.
> There is of course the neighbor discovery stuff. But you probably have to
> filter that already to avoid customers talking directly to each other
> without going through the router.
> 
For the CPE the vital traffic is DHCP-PD signaling and this will be sourced
from a LL address. If one assumes that an RS is the trigger for user
authorization, securing the address binding at that same time is optimal and
useful in also securing any follow-on DHCP-PD assignment, besides any other
traffic that would suffer from spoofed LLs.
Note that the binding table will need to factor in the other unicast
addresses too.

Do you see any downside of the proposal?

-Woj.
-Woj.
> 



From numberssleap@aguero.com  Mon Apr 26 07:28:51 2010
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 26 07:50:13 2010
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Message-Id: 
To: Wojciech Dec 
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Philip Homburg 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:06:10 +0200 ."  
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:28:22 +0200
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In your letter dated Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:06:10 +0200 you wrote:
>>> It helps in being able to bind the MAC to an IPv6 address for that
>>> subscriber. Coincidentally, this is exactly what is already in place for v4
>.
>> Why the link local address?
>
>It can be any unicast address.

Yes, but in the context of an RS, that will be the link-local address. Or
are you thinking of requiring the use of a global IPv6 address as the
source of RS messages?

>>> Without such a binding, LL spoofing becomes an issue.
>> 
>> Can you be a bit more specific?
>> 
>> IPv4 doesn't have a link local address.
>
>In IPv4 the binding is DHCP derived, something that is a bit harder to
>assume with IPv6.
>BTW IPv4 does have LLs too, but they happen not to be commonly used (at
>least not by CPEs).

Can we stick to what is actually used in the context of CPEs?

I know that IPv4 LL address exist, but I have a hard time understanding how
you would use them to provide a customer with a working Internet connection.

So for IPv4, you need a binding between the global IPv4 address and the MAC
address.

For IPv6 you need to bind IPv6 addresses or prefixes to MAC addresses.

No need for link-local addresses.

>> So what kind of traffic do you expect to and from the link-local address.
>> There is of course the neighbor discovery stuff. But you probably have to
>> filter that already to avoid customers talking directly to each other
>> without going through the router.
>> 
>For the CPE the vital traffic is DHCP-PD signaling and this will be sourced
>from a LL address. If one assumes that an RS is the trigger for user
>authorization, securing the address binding at that same time is optimal and
>useful in also securing any follow-on DHCP-PD assignment, besides any other
>traffic that would suffer from spoofed LLs.
>Note that the binding table will need to factor in the other unicast
>addresses too.

If you already have a link identifier for the RS, why not use it as well for
the DPCP-PD? 

Are you really assigning DHCP-PD prefixes based on the link-local source
address in the solicit?

>Do you see any downside of the proposal?

I think there is a recent trent to just add all kind of extra requirements
for CPEs that are not there in the underlying protocols.

In my opinion, if you really need this, just get RFC-4861 changed to disallow
the use of an unspecified address as the source of an RS.

But I still have no clear picture how a customer can spoof things using his
link local address.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 26 08:02:12 2010
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Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:49:51 +0200
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: Philip Homburg 
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On 26/04/2010 16:28, "Philip Homburg"  wrote:

> In your letter dated Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:06:10 +0200 you wrote:
>>>> It helps in being able to bind the MAC to an IPv6 address for that
>>>> subscriber. Coincidentally, this is exactly what is already in place for v4
>> .
>>> Why the link local address?
>> 
>> It can be any unicast address.
> 
> Yes, but in the context of an RS, that will be the link-local address. Or
> are you thinking of requiring the use of a global IPv6 address as the
> source of RS messages?

 RFC4861 section 6.3.7 states:
" A host sends Router Solicitations to the all-routers multicast
    address.  The IP source address is set to either one of the
    interface's unicast addresses or the unspecified address."

As you can see, whether the global or LL IPv6 address is used is
unspecified. From my perspective the LL is more likely, and is what the BNG
would prefer to see.

> 
>>>> Without such a binding, LL spoofing becomes an issue.
>>> 
>>> Can you be a bit more specific?
>>> 
>>> IPv4 doesn't have a link local address.
>> 
>> In IPv4 the binding is DHCP derived, something that is a bit harder to
>> assume with IPv6.
>> BTW IPv4 does have LLs too, but they happen not to be commonly used (at
>> least not by CPEs).
> 
> Can we stick to what is actually used in the context of CPEs?
> 
> I know that IPv4 LL address exist, but I have a hard time understanding how
> you would use them to provide a customer with a working Internet connection.
> 
> So for IPv4, you need a binding between the global IPv4 address and the MAC
> address.
> 
> For IPv6 you need to bind IPv6 addresses or prefixes to MAC addresses.
> 
> No need for link-local addresses.

LLs are absolutely needed. DHCPv6 uses them as does ND. Furthermore, in the
CPE draft we support the so called "unnumbered" model, whereby the WAN
interface has NO global IPv6 address.

> 
>>> So what kind of traffic do you expect to and from the link-local address.
>>> There is of course the neighbor discovery stuff. But you probably have to
>>> filter that already to avoid customers talking directly to each other
>>> without going through the router.
>>> 
>> For the CPE the vital traffic is DHCP-PD signaling and this will be sourced
>> from a LL address. If one assumes that an RS is the trigger for user
>> authorization, securing the address binding at that same time is optimal and
>> useful in also securing any follow-on DHCP-PD assignment, besides any other
>> traffic that would suffer from spoofed LLs.
>> Note that the binding table will need to factor in the other unicast
>> addresses too.
> 
> If you already have a link identifier for the RS, why not use it as well for
> the DPCP-PD? 

I'm referring to creating an IP-L2-binding using an IP address obtained from
an RS, which is used to authorize a customer.

> 
> Are you really assigning DHCP-PD prefixes based on the link-local source
> address in the solicit?

This is not what I said.

> 
>> Do you see any downside of the proposal?
> 
> I think there is a recent trent to just add all kind of extra requirements
> for CPEs that are not there in the underlying protocols.
> 
> In my opinion, if you really need this, just get RFC-4861 changed to disallow
> the use of an unspecified address as the source of an RS.

RFC-4861 allows *both*, thus it is something that is supported in the
"unerlying protocols". The unspecified address option in 4861 was/is there
to allow a host to issue an RS  on the WAN interface before attempting or
completing SLAAC. Since in the CPE spec we assume SLAAC (and DHCP-PD), I'm
saying that it would be highly welcome for the CPE to use a tighter form of
the RS sending rule, which will make BNG processing easier.

> 
> But I still have no clear picture how a customer can spoof things using his
> link local address.
>
The issue is one of overwriting ND cache entries in the BNG, by having one
customer spoof another's LL address.

I take it that other than clarifications, you see no issue with the
proposal.

-Woj.
> 



From karson5@aldec.com  Mon Apr 26 08:43:42 2010
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 26 08:50:32 2010
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Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1078)
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From: Ole Troan 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:45:18 +0200
Cc: 
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References: 
To: Wojciech Dec 
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Woj,

> As a follow-up to the discussion, here's some proposed text for the =
"WAN
> side requirements" in Section 4.2:
>=20
> W-x:    The router MUST orignate RS messages with a source IP address =
set to
> one of the interface's unicast addresses.


let me see if I understand where you are coming from. this is for an =
DSL/GPON access network, where you require some isolation between the =
CPEs. so you don't do address resolution downstream, but you depend on =
things like DHCP snooping to learn address to L2 address bindings. then =
to learn the link-local to L2 binding, you obviously need something =
different than DHCP. so the only reliable protocol you're left with is =
the RS/RA exchange. correct?

so something like this?

W-x: The IPv6 CE router MUST generate a link-local address and finish =
Duplicate Address Detection according to RFC4862 prior to sending any =
Router Solicitations on the interface. The source address used in the =
subsequent Router Solicitation MUST be the link-local address on the WAN =
interface.

this is contrary to the section 4 of RFC4862 by the way, which =
recommends the processes should be done in parallel. BBF's TR-124i2 also =
has DAD and router solicitation done in serial.

cheers,
Ole



>=20
> On 15/04/2010 16:02, "Wojciech Dec"  wrote:
>=20
>> Hi,
>>=20
>> Given that RS triggered access appears to be gaining ground (based on =
the
>> latest  draft-krishnan-rs-mark) it would appear that the CPE router =
draft
>> specify a bit more tightly the form of RS messages a CPE sends when =
connecting
>> to a network.=20
>> RFC4861 section 6.3.7 states:
>> " A host sends Router Solicitations to the all-routers multicast
>>   address.  The IP source address is set to either one of the
>>   interface's unicast addresses or the unspecified address."
>>=20
>> Now, since the source address is very likely to be one of the =
identifier keys
>> for a CPE used for authorization, I would like to propose that an RS =
sending
>> rule be added to the CPE spec which would ensure that the IP source =
address is
>> NEVER the unspecified address, eg:
>>=20
>> The IPv6 CE router MUST use one of its WAN interface unicast =
addresses when
>> sending RS messages.
>>=20
>> Comments?
>>=20
>> -Woj.
>=20
>=20



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Mon Apr 26 10:31:47 2010
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Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: Ole Troan 
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On 26/04/2010 17:45, "Ole Troan"  wrote:

> Woj,
> 
>> As a follow-up to the discussion, here's some proposed text for the "WAN
>> side requirements" in Section 4.2:
>> 
>> W-x:    The router MUST orignate RS messages with a source IP address set to
>> one of the interface's unicast addresses.
> 
> 
> let me see if I understand where you are coming from. this is for an DSL/GPON
> access network, where you require some isolation between the CPEs. so you
> don't do address resolution downstream, but you depend on things like DHCP
> snooping to learn address to L2 address bindings. then to learn the link-local
> to L2 binding, you obviously need something different than DHCP. so the only
> reliable protocol you're left with is the RS/RA exchange. correct?

Close...
The broadband access model has come to adopting/relying on RS messages as an
authorization trigger with line-id info (draft-krishnan). Notably RS
messages are the only ones to contain such info.
As such, it's pretty much de-rigueur to be able to bind at authorization a
subscriber to their source IP address and prevent IP spoofing of that
subscriber on a shared access medium. In IPv4 this is sometime known as
ARP-lock, and happens during DHCP authorization.
If the inclusion of a specific IP address in RS messages is left as
unspecified, then effectively no such binding between ip-l2 and line-id is
possible esp given that there is no guarantee of receiving any subsequent RS
(containing line-id + ip address) from that same CPE. As such it becomes
non-trivial to defend the CPE's IP address (identified by the line-id),
especially the LL address, from spoofing.

> 
> so something like this?
> 
> W-x: The IPv6 CE router MUST generate a link-local address and finish
> Duplicate Address Detection according to RFC4862 prior to sending any Router
> Solicitations on the interface. The source address used in the subsequent
> Router Solicitation MUST be the link-local address on the WAN interface.

That's even clearer, great.

> 
> this is contrary to the section 4 of RFC4862 by the way, which recommends the
> processes should be done in parallel. BBF's TR-124i2 also has DAD and router
> solicitation done in serial.

Serial execution of DAD and RS is fine and as such there is no harm to have
the serialized RS use a specific IP address.

-Woj.

> 
> cheers,
> Ole
> 
> 
> 
>> 
>> On 15/04/2010 16:02, "Wojciech Dec"  wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Given that RS triggered access appears to be gaining ground (based on the
>>> latest  draft-krishnan-rs-mark) it would appear that the CPE router draft
>>> specify a bit more tightly the form of RS messages a CPE sends when
>>> connecting
>>> to a network. 
>>> RFC4861 section 6.3.7 states:
>>> " A host sends Router Solicitations to the all-routers multicast
>>>   address.  The IP source address is set to either one of the
>>>   interface's unicast addresses or the unspecified address."
>>> 
>>> Now, since the source address is very likely to be one of the identifier
>>> keys
>>> for a CPE used for authorization, I would like to propose that an RS sending
>>> rule be added to the CPE spec which would ensure that the IP source address
>>> is
>>> NEVER the unspecified address, eg:
>>> 
>>> The IPv6 CE router MUST use one of its WAN interface unicast addresses when
>>> sending RS messages.
>>> 
>>> Comments?
>>> 
>>> -Woj.
>> 
>> 
> 



From john.york@africashope.org  Mon Apr 26 21:14:06 2010
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 27 01:41:50 2010
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To: draft-krishnan-v6ops-teredo-update@tools.ietf.org,  'IPv6 Operations' 
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I have reviewed this draft and have the following comments. In general,
the draft is in good shape and can move forward. I have two small
technical issues and a few minor editorial ones. Nevertheless, I have
decided to initiate last call, but I would appreciate a quick document
update in the next few days to correct these issues.



Technical:



  
Teredo Client: A node that has access to the IPv4 Internet and wants
to gain access to the IPv6 Internet.
  



There are lots of such nodes, but not all of them are Teredo clients,
i.e., implement the Teredo protocol... please correct the definition.





  
Opening a hole in an enterprise firewall
[I-D.ietf-v6ops-tunnel-security-concerns]: Teredo is NOT RECOMMENDED
as a solution for managed networks.  Administrators of such networks
may wish to filter all Teredo traffic at the boundaries of their
networks.
  





I'm not sure the term "managed networks" is a correct one here. There
are many types of managed networks, some care about blocking Teredo and
some would not. Suggested rewrite:



"Opening a hole in an enterprise firewall
[I-D.ietf-v6ops-tunnel-security-concerns]: Teredo is NOT RECOMMENDED as
a solution for networks that wish to implement strict controls for what
traffic passes to and from the Internet.  Administrators of such
networks may wish to filter all Teredo traffic at the boundaries of
their networks."



(Also, speaking personally, I may not completely agree with the
conclusions from draft-ietf-v6ops-tunnel-security-concerns that
inspection of tunneled traffic is always hard and inefficient. I think
there is some room to allow firewalls to inspect tunneling traffic on
top of well-known and established tunneling protocols such as Teredo.)



Editorial:





  
Teredo IPv6 Address: An IPv6 address that starts with the prefix
2001:0000:/32 and is formed as specified in [RFC4380] section 2.14.
  





Wouldn't Section 4 be a better reference here?





  
Teredo addresses are structured and some of the fields contained in
them are fairly predictable.  This can be used to better predict the
address.
  





I would rewrite the second sentence (which currently doesn't say much)
as follows: "This makes it easier to predict an address, opening a
(small) vulnerability."





  
   open on a IPv4 address, prior to trying to form a Teredo address for



s/on a/on an/




4. Acknowledgments

....

5. Security Considerations





I think it would be better if all the technical parts of the document
were explained first, followed by the acknowledgment section. That is,
I think Section 5 would come more naturally before Section 4.



Jari





From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 27 07:24:48 2010
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To: Wojciech Dec 
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Philip Homburg 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:49:51 +0200 ."  
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:13:29 +0200
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In your letter dated Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:49:51 +0200 you wrote:
>LLs are absolutely needed. DHCPv6 uses them as does ND. Furthermore, in the
>CPE draft we support the so called "unnumbered" model, whereby the WAN
>interface has NO global IPv6 address.

What's the point of requiring a RS if there is not going to be prefix anyhow?

If a router is configured for PD, it may just as well leave out the RS
all together.

>> If you already have a link identifier for the RS, why not use it as well for
>> the DPCP-PD? 
>
>I'm referring to creating an IP-L2-binding using an IP address obtained from
>an RS, which is used to authorize a customer.

Is there anything special in those RS message (some kind of encryption, HMAC)
that really authorizes the customer, or do you just accept any random 
MAC address and link-local address, allowing any customer to create a 
denial of service attack on another customer?

>> But I still have no clear picture how a customer can spoof things using his
>> link local address.
>>
>The issue is one of overwriting ND cache entries in the BNG, by having one
>customer spoof another's LL address.

How does that help? A customer gets the wrong DHCP reply?

It would be nice if you could describe a specific attack that is allowed by
not binding to the LL addresses early on, and cannot be prevented easily.

>I take it that other than clarifications, you see no issue with the
>proposal.

It is fine with me if you update RFC-4861 for all links and all cases. 
I don't think it is a good idea to create all kinds of different versions of
the neighbor discovery protocols depending not on the link type, but how the
link is used.

If you do ND over ethernet, there should be one set of rules for doing that.
And not one set of rules for ordinary ethernet and another if you happen
to connect to an ISP.

(IMHO the same thing applies to using RA messages as a poor man's routing 
protocol. If that is what is needed, then add some flags or options to
RA, don't just change the meaning of an RA depending on how the link is used).




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 27 11:36:26 2010
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Subject: Re: WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt 
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FWIW I gave this a read and it looked pretty good to me.=20

On Apr 11, 2010, at 1:59 PM, Fred Baker wrote:

> As agreed at the last IETF meeting, I am opening a two week WGLC of =
draft-ietf-v6ops-cpe-simple-security-10.txt. Please read the document, =
comment to this list on matters of substance, and send nits =
(spelling/grammar, word choice, sentence structure comments) to the =
authors.
>=20
> http://www.ipinc.net/IPv4.GIF
>=20


Cullen Jennings
For corporate legal information go to:
http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html





From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 27 13:48:13 2010
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From: Jari Arkko 
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I am reviewing this document, and even though the review is not complete 
yet, I decided to post the comments that I have so far. I have reviewed 
roughly until page 17. I will continue reading the document tomorrow.

Technical:

> Nonce: A time-variant counter used in the connection setup phase to
> prevent message replay and other types of attacks.
>   

Nonces are typically defined as time-variant random values or values 
used only once. A counter may be sufficient for this, but was this 
really what you meant? The document says later:

   When a Teredo client sends an
   indirect bubble, it MUST generate a random 4-byte value, and include
   it in the Nonce field of a Nonce Trailer (section 2.2.1) appended to
   the indirect bubble, and also store it in the Nonce Sent field of its
   Peer Entry for that Teredo peer.

which seems to indicate you really did mean a random value. I think it 
is important in this application that others are unable to guess it.

> Teredo Client: A node that has access to the IPv4 Internet and wants
> to gain access to the IPv6 Internet.
>   

... using the Teredo protocol? (Otherwise, there are plenty of Teredo 
devices in the world according to this definition...)

Editorial:

Idnits reports:

>   == No 'Intended status' indicated for this document; assuming Proposed
>      Standard
>
>
>   Checking nits according to http://www.ietf.org/id-info/checklist :
>   ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   ** There are 15 instances of too long lines in the document, the longest
>      one being 3 characters in excess of 72.
>   

These should be corrected.

>   == There are 6 instances of lines with non-RFC3330-compliant IPv4 addresses
>      in the document.  If these are example addresses, they should be changed.
>   

The document does seem to be using non-RFC3330 addresses as examples, 
207.x.x.x and 157.x.x.x and maybe others. Please change them. (AFAICT, 
the use of IPv6 and private addresses is correct in the document, 
however, despite warnings from idnits.)

>   Miscellaneous warnings:
>   ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>   == The document seems to lack a disclaimer for pre-RFC5378 work, but was
>      first submitted before 10 November 2008.  Should you add the disclaimer?
>      (See the Legal Provisions document at
>      http://trustee.ietf.org/license-info for more information.) -- however,
>      there's a paragraph with a matching beginning. Boilerplate error?
>   

You may want to check this.

>   == Missing Reference: 'RFC 4380' is mentioned on line 962, but not defined
>   

Section 5.1.1 gets the reference identifier wrong (it has an extra space).

>   -- Obsolete informational reference (is this intentional?): RFC 2463
>      (Obsoleted by RFC 4443
It seems that the new RFC should be used instead, AFAICT.

Jari



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 27 15:23:41 2010
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From: Mark Smith 
To: Philip Homburg 
Cc: Wojciech Dec , v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
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On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:13:29 +0200
Philip Homburg  wrote:

> In your letter dated Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:49:51 +0200 you wrote:
> >LLs are absolutely needed. DHCPv6 uses them as does ND. Furthermore, in the
> >CPE draft we support the so called "unnumbered" model, whereby the WAN
> >interface has NO global IPv6 address.
> 
> What's the point of requiring a RS if there is not going to be prefix anyhow?
> 
> If a router is configured for PD, it may just as well leave out the RS
> all together.
> 

Customers in some markets own their CPE. As an ISP, I don't want them
to be able to choose to use LLs only on their link, because that link
is the ISPs to manage and make the choice as to what sort of
addressing they want to use on it (customers can do what they like on
their LAN interfaces - that's their network). Disabling RS when
DHCPv6-PD was enabled would prevent the level of control an ISP needs
to have to provide a good quaility of service (ever tried to
ping/traceroute to a remote LL for troubleshooting purposes? And I
really don't want helpdesk staff constantly logging into edge routers,
even if it was automated and controlled via scripts - they might decide
to have fun and DoS it with many, many script execution attempts)

> >> If you already have a link identifier for the RS, why not use it as well for
> >> the DPCP-PD? 
> >
> >I'm referring to creating an IP-L2-binding using an IP address obtained from
> >an RS, which is used to authorize a customer.
> 
> Is there anything special in those RS message (some kind of encryption, HMAC)
> that really authorizes the customer, or do you just accept any random 
> MAC address and link-local address, allowing any customer to create a 
> denial of service attack on another customer?
> 
> >> But I still have no clear picture how a customer can spoof things using his
> >> link local address.
> >>
> >The issue is one of overwriting ND cache entries in the BNG, by having one
> >customer spoof another's LL address.
> 
> How does that help? A customer gets the wrong DHCP reply?
> 
> It would be nice if you could describe a specific attack that is allowed by
> not binding to the LL addresses early on, and cannot be prevented easily.
> 
> >I take it that other than clarifications, you see no issue with the
> >proposal.
> 
> It is fine with me if you update RFC-4861 for all links and all cases. 
> I don't think it is a good idea to create all kinds of different versions of
> the neighbor discovery protocols depending not on the link type, but how the
> link is used.
> 
> If you do ND over ethernet, there should be one set of rules for doing that.
> And not one set of rules for ordinary ethernet and another if you happen
> to connect to an ISP.
> 
> (IMHO the same thing applies to using RA messages as a poor man's routing 
> protocol. If that is what is needed, then add some flags or options to
> RA, don't just change the meaning of an RA depending on how the link is used).
> 
> 
> 


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 27 16:10:06 2010
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Hi Jari,
   Thanks for the comments. I will address them in a new version by the 
end of this week.

Thanks
Suresh

On 10-04-27 04:33 AM, Jari Arkko wrote:
> I have reviewed this draft and have the following comments. In general, 
> the draft is in good shape and can move forward. I have two small 
> technical issues and a few minor editorial ones. Nevertheless, I have 
> decided to initiate last call, but I would appreciate a quick document 
> update in the next few days to correct these issues.
> 
> Technical:
>> Teredo Client: A node that has access to the IPv4 Internet and wants
>> to gain access to the IPv6 Internet.
>>   
> There are lots of such nodes, but not all of them are Teredo clients, 
> i.e., implement the Teredo protocol... please correct the definition.
> 
>> Opening a hole in an enterprise firewall
>> [I-D.ietf-v6ops-tunnel-security-concerns ]: Teredo is NOT RECOMMENDED
>> as a solution for managed networks.  Administrators of such networks
>> may wish to filter all Teredo traffic at the boundaries of their
>> networks.
>>   
> 
> I'm not sure the term "managed networks" is a correct one here. There 
> are many types of managed networks, some care about blocking Teredo and 
> some would not. Suggested rewrite:
> 
> "Opening a hole in an enterprise firewall 
> [I-D.ietf-v6ops-tunnel-security-concerns]: Teredo is NOT RECOMMENDED as 
> a solution for networks that wish to implement strict controls for what 
> traffic passes to and from the Internet.  Administrators of such 
> networks may wish to filter all Teredo traffic at the boundaries of 
> their networks."
> 
> (Also, speaking personally, I may not completely agree with the 
> conclusions from draft-ietf-v6ops-tunnel-security-concerns that 
> inspection of tunneled traffic is always hard and inefficient. I think 
> there is some room to allow firewalls to inspect tunneling traffic on 
> top of well-known and established tunneling protocols such as Teredo.)
> 
> Editorial:
> 
>> Teredo IPv6 Address: An IPv6 address that starts with the prefix
>> 2001:0000:/32 and is formed as specified in [RFC4380] section 2.14 .
>>   
> 
> Wouldn't Section 4 be a better reference here?
> 
>> Teredo addresses are structured and some of the fields contained in
>> them are fairly predictable.  This can be used to better predict the
>> address.
>>   
> 
> I would rewrite the second sentence (which currently doesn't say much) 
> as follows: "This makes it easier to predict an address, opening a 
> (small) vulnerability."
> 
>>    open on a IPv4 address, prior to trying to form a Teredo address for
> s/on a/on an/
> 
>> 4. Acknowledgments
>> ....
>> 5. Security Considerations
> 
> I think it would be better if all the technical parts of the document 
> were explained first, followed by the acknowledgment section. That is, I 
> think Section 5 would come more naturally before Section 4.
> 
> Jari



From ninger@amada.com  Tue Apr 27 22:53:35 2010
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Tue Apr 27 23:54:18 2010
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Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Wojciech Dec 
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On 27/04/2010 16:13, "Philip Homburg"  wrote:

> 
>> I take it that other than clarifications, you see no issue with the
>> proposal.
> 
> It is fine with me if you update RFC-4861 for all links and all cases.
> I don't think it is a good idea to create all kinds of different versions of
> the neighbor discovery protocols depending not on the link type, but how the
> link is used.
> 
> If you do ND over ethernet, there should be one set of rules for doing that.
> And not one set of rules for ordinary ethernet and another if you happen
> to connect to an ISP.

Updating RFC4861 is not the intent and there is no modification of the
protocol being proposed here. Citing from the begging of this thread:

RFC4861 states:
" A host sends Router Solicitations to the all-routers multicast
   address.  The IP source address is set to either one of the
   interface's unicast addresses or the unspecified address."

As such having Rses with a unicast address is already covered by the
protocol. The proposed change tightens the CPE's RS sending rule, which
combined with serialized DAD (or even optimistic DAD), makes sense.

-Woj.





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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 28 04:05:50 2010
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References: 
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 12:58:24 +0200 (CEST)
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
From: "Konrad Rosenbaum" 
To: "Wojciech Dec" 
Cc: "Philip Homburg" , v6ops@ops.ietf.org
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Hi,

On Wed, April 28, 2010 08:47, Wojciech Dec wrote:
> Updating RFC4861 is not the intent and there is no modification of the
> protocol being proposed here. Citing from the begging of this thread:
>
> RFC4861 states:
> " A host sends Router Solicitations to the all-routers multicast
>    address.  The IP source address is set to either one of the
>    interface's unicast addresses or the unspecified address."
>
> As such having Rses with a unicast address is already covered by the
> protocol. The proposed change tightens the CPE's RS sending rule, which
> combined with serialized DAD (or even optimistic DAD), makes sense.

>From a programmers perspective I do not think that it would be realistic
to tighten this specific requirement and expect people to comply. There
aren't many router vendors out there who write the entire software stack
of their routers - this is especially true for (relatively cheap) CPE
equipment.

The RS/RA and DAD protocols are usually implemented deep inside the
operating system kernel. I can't even find an option for Linux to switch
between RA with LL and null source address.

So in order to make sure I comply with such a requirement I would have to
dig deep into the kernel source and probably change it, while I would
already be under a very tight schedule fighting against my hardware
platform vendors development kit.

Right now is one of the very few moments that I'm happy I don't work for a
CPE router manufacturer. ;-)

On a related note: I would expect ISP side equipment to work with most
common systems out there without forcing significant or unintuitive
changes on them. In this particular case: find a way to inspect the MAC
address or line-ID instead of relying on the LL source address of the RA
message.


    Konrad



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 28 04:30:52 2010
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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:27:28 +0200
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: Konrad Rosenbaum 
CC: Philip Homburg , 
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Thread-Topic: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
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On 28/04/2010 12:58, "Konrad Rosenbaum"  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> On Wed, April 28, 2010 08:47, Wojciech Dec wrote:
>> Updating RFC4861 is not the intent and there is no modification of the
>> protocol being proposed here. Citing from the begging of this thread:
>> 
>> RFC4861 states:
>> " A host sends Router Solicitations to the all-routers multicast
>>    address.  The IP source address is set to either one of the
>>    interface's unicast addresses or the unspecified address."
>> 
>> As such having Rses with a unicast address is already covered by the
>> protocol. The proposed change tightens the CPE's RS sending rule, which
>> combined with serialized DAD (or even optimistic DAD), makes sense.
> 
> From a programmers perspective I do not think that it would be realistic
> to tighten this specific requirement and expect people to comply. There
> aren't many router vendors out there who write the entire software stack
> of their routers - this is especially true for (relatively cheap) CPE
> equipment.
> 
> The RS/RA and DAD protocols are usually implemented deep inside the
> operating system kernel. I can't even find an option for Linux to switch
> between RA with LL and null source address.
> 
> So in order to make sure I comply with such a requirement I would have to
> dig deep into the kernel source and probably change it, while I would
> already be under a very tight schedule fighting against my hardware
> platform vendors development kit.

That is an implementation detail. One can well argue that the CPE spec goes
beyond vanilla router v6 stacks in a number of other areas, eg the handling
of the RA flags. The BBF spec goes into even finer detail, and IMO it would
be a bit naive to have the CPE spec just represent some status quo of v6
implementations; we have a CPE spec so that vendors can build to it CPEs and
other devices (CMTSes, BNGs, etc), and operators have a model reference of
the expected behaviour.
Functionally, as I said previously, it's important for the RS that is used
to authenticate a given user to contain an IP address that can be attributed
to that same user at the BNG. With serialized DAD and RS sending on the CPE,
I really do see it as a logical thing to define.

-Woj.

> 
> Right now is one of the very few moments that I'm happy I don't work for a
> CPE router manufacturer. ;-)
> 
> On a related note: I would expect ISP side equipment to work with most
> common systems out there without forcing significant or unintuitive
> changes on them. In this particular case: find a way to inspect the MAC
> address or line-ID instead of relying on the LL source address of the RA
> message.
> 
> 
>     Konrad
> 



From enticement@satsys.org  Wed Apr 28 04:34:55 2010
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 28 10:38:34 2010
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To: Wojciech Dec 
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Philip Homburg 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 Apr 2010 08:47:17 +0200 ."  
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:33:39 +0200
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In your letter dated Wed, 28 Apr 2010 08:47:17 +0200 you wrote:
>Updating RFC4861 is not the intent and there is no modification of the
>protocol being proposed here. Citing from the begging of this thread:
>
>RFC4861 states:
>" A host sends Router Solicitations to the all-routers multicast
>   address.  The IP source address is set to either one of the
>   interface's unicast addresses or the unspecified address."
>
>As such having Rses with a unicast address is already covered by the
>protocol. The proposed change tightens the CPE's RS sending rule, which
>combined with serialized DAD (or even optimistic DAD), makes sense.

IMHO, changing RFC-4861 is what is required if you can't live with the
unspecified address (or any global address).

This goes in the direction of OSI-like profiles, something IPv4 seemed have
avoided mostly.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 28 10:38:43 2010
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To: Mark Smith 
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Philip Homburg 
References:   <20100428074818.18741202@opy.nosense.org> 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 Apr 2010 07:48:18 +0930 ." <20100428074818.18741202@opy.nosense.org> 
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:30:32 +0200
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In your letter dated Wed, 28 Apr 2010 07:48:18 +0930 you wrote:
>On Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:13:29 +0200
>Philip Homburg  wrote:
>
>> In your letter dated Mon, 26 Apr 2010 16:49:51 +0200 you wrote:
>> >LLs are absolutely needed. DHCPv6 uses them as does ND. Furthermore, in the
>> >CPE draft we support the so called "unnumbered" model, whereby the WAN
>> >interface has NO global IPv6 address.
>> 
>> What's the point of requiring a RS if there is not going to be prefix anyhow
>?
>> 
>> If a router is configured for PD, it may just as well leave out the RS
>> all together.
>> 
>Customers in some markets own their CPE. As an ISP, I don't want them
>to be able to choose to use LLs only on their link, because that link
>is the ISPs to manage and make the choice as to what sort of
>addressing they want to use on it (customers can do what they like on
>their LAN interfaces - that's their network). Disabling RS when
>DHCPv6-PD was enabled would prevent the level of control an ISP needs
>to have to provide a good quaility of service (ever tried to
>ping/traceroute to a remote LL for troubleshooting purposes? And I
>really don't want helpdesk staff constantly logging into edge routers,
>even if it was automated and controlled via scripts - they might decide
>to have fun and DoS it with many, many script execution attempts)

Some ISP do not assign any address to the WAN link and the DHCP-DP RFC prevents
me from assigning a address from the prefix to that link. That annoys me to no
end.

But worse, when every ISP comes up with an arbitrary list of features (and
requirements) it becomes almost impossible to help a random person with his
internet connection.  Oh, you don't have a global IP address on WAN link, is
that normal because the ISP doesn't assign one, or did something go wrong?
Neighbor discovery doesn't work, is that normal because the ISP disabled it,
or is something really broken. You only know if you know the details of 
every ISP.

But more practically speaking, how do you know the global IPv6 address of
your customer? With SLAAC you would have to know the MAC address to even
guess that address. Do you guess it based on the link-local address? Do you
call the customer? What if the customers CPE uses temporary (privacy)
addresses?

If you want that kind of control, why not prohibit customer from using there
own CPEs? Limit official support to just the CPEs supplied by the ISP. There
almost endless list of things random CPEs can do wrong.

With prefix delegation, a router is very likely to have at least one global
address from the delegated prefix.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 28 10:47:20 2010
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Message-Id: 
To: Wojciech Dec 
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Philip Homburg 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:27:28 +0200 ."  
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:45:00 +0200
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In your letter dated Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:27:28 +0200 you wrote:
>The BBF spec goes into even finer detail, and IMO it would
>be a bit naive to have the CPE spec just represent some status quo of v6
>implementations; we have a CPE spec so that vendors can build to it CPEs and
>other devices (CMTSes, BNGs, etc), and operators have a model reference of
>the expected behaviour.

We are not talking about random behavior of some implementation. These
are features of the protocols that are explicitly allowed by the standards.

For example, the neighbor discovery RFC could be updated to include that the
host can send RS messages with the unspecified address as long as DAD is
not finished for the link-local address. And that they should send at least
a certain number of RS messages with the link-local address as source
(unless an RA is received before that time).

I think that would help implementators and end-users a lot more than random
requirements in a CPE spec.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 28 11:02:47 2010
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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 20:00:51 +0200
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: Philip Homburg 
CC: 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
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On 28/04/2010 19:33, "Philip Homburg"  wrote:

> In your letter dated Wed, 28 Apr 2010 08:47:17 +0200 you wrote:
>> Updating RFC4861 is not the intent and there is no modification of the
>> protocol being proposed here. Citing from the begging of this thread:
>> 
>> RFC4861 states:
>> " A host sends Router Solicitations to the all-routers multicast
>>   address.  The IP source address is set to either one of the
>>   interface's unicast addresses or the unspecified address."
>> 
>> As such having Rses with a unicast address is already covered by the
>> protocol. The proposed change tightens the CPE's RS sending rule, which
>> combined with serialized DAD (or even optimistic DAD), makes sense.
> 
> IMHO, changing RFC-4861 is what is required if you can't live with the
> unspecified address (or any global address).

Why aren't you also claiming that M and O flag behaviour as specified by
this document requires a change of 4861? That same logic of tightening the
spec to fit a specific type of device applies there too, and arguably is one
of the main values of this draft.


-Woj.

> 
> This goes in the direction of OSI-like profiles, something IPv4 seemed have
> avoided mostly.
> 
> 



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 28 12:51:53 2010
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Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
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From: Ole Troan 
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Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:47:25 +0200
Cc: Mark Smith , v6ops@ops.ietf.org
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References:   <20100428074818.18741202@opy.nosense.org>  
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Philip,

[...]

this no longer appears to concern RSes... but.

> Some ISP do not assign any address to the WAN link and the DHCP-DP RFC =
prevents
> me from assigning a address from the prefix to that link. That annoys =
me to no
> end.

I don't understand what the problem with this is. the CPE draft =
recommends that an address is configured on an internal interface. why =
does it matter to which interface the address is on?

> But worse, when every ISP comes up with an arbitrary list of features =
(and
> requirements) it becomes almost impossible to help a random person =
with his
> internet connection.  Oh, you don't have a global IP address on WAN =
link, is
> that normal because the ISP doesn't assign one, or did something go =
wrong?
> Neighbor discovery doesn't work, is that normal because the ISP =
disabled it,
> or is something really broken. You only know if you know the details =
of=20
> every ISP.

what arbitrary features are those?
there are 3 addressing models. SLAAC, DHCPv6 and "unnumbered".
all models use SLAAC.
ND is used. I'm not aware of anything that requires 'details of every =
ISP' to understand.

> But more practically speaking, how do you know the global IPv6 address =
of
> your customer? With SLAAC you would have to know the MAC address to =
even
> guess that address. Do you guess it based on the link-local address? =
Do you
> call the customer? What if the customers CPE uses temporary (privacy)
> addresses?

if you are an SP that requires to know the customers address, then you =
use DHCPv6 for address assignment.

> If you want that kind of control, why not prohibit customer from using =
there
> own CPEs? Limit official support to just the CPEs supplied by the ISP. =
There
> almost endless list of things random CPEs can do wrong.
>=20
> With prefix delegation, a router is very likely to have at least one =
global
> address from the delegated prefix.

yes. are you arguing that this address should be well known? since there =
is no way you can assign that via DHCP. or are you arguing that there =
should be a mechanism to discover it? e.g by using the subnet-router =
anycast address?

cheers,
Ole=


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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 28 14:52:04 2010
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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 07:16:38 +0930
From: Mark Smith 
To: Philip Homburg 
Cc: Wojciech Dec , v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
Message-ID: <20100429071638.0bf773bb@opy.nosense.org>
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On Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:45:00 +0200
Philip Homburg  wrote:

> In your letter dated Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:27:28 +0200 you wrote:
> >The BBF spec goes into even finer detail, and IMO it would
> >be a bit naive to have the CPE spec just represent some status quo of v6
> >implementations; we have a CPE spec so that vendors can build to it CPEs and
> >other devices (CMTSes, BNGs, etc), and operators have a model reference of
> >the expected behaviour.
> 
> We are not talking about random behavior of some implementation. These
> are features of the protocols that are explicitly allowed by the standards.
> 
> For example, the neighbor discovery RFC could be updated to include that the
> host can send RS messages with the unspecified address as long as DAD is
> not finished for the link-local address. And that they should send at least
> a certain number of RS messages with the link-local address as source
> (unless an RA is received before that time).
> 
> I think that would help implementators and end-users a lot more than random
> requirements in a CPE spec.
> 
> 
> 

I'm afraid I think it is time to stop considering fiddling with
existing and functional specifications to a achieve micro-efficiencies
such as saving a packet here and there, or saving small amounts of IPv6
address space.

Right now, the priority needs to be on getting IPv6 deployed, which
means accepting things when they are adequate to perform the task,
rather than persisting until they're 'technically perfect' - commonly a
matter of opinion of course, so it may actually never be achieved in
some people's mind.

Regards,
Mark.






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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Wed Apr 28 17:26:49 2010
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Subject: RE: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:21:50 -0500
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" 
To: "Wojciech Dec (wdec)" , "Konrad Rosenbaum" 
Cc: "Philip Homburg" , 
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Wojciech Dec (wdec)
Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 7:27 AM
To: Konrad Rosenbaum
Cc: Philip Homburg; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04


>That is an implementation detail. One can well argue that the CPE spec
goes
>beyond vanilla router v6 stacks in a number of other areas, eg the
handling
>of the RA flags. The BBF spec goes into even finer detail, and IMO it
would
>be a bit naive to have the CPE spec just represent some status quo of
v6
>implementations; we have a CPE spec so that vendors can build to it
CPEs and
>other devices (CMTSes, BNGs, etc), and operators have a model reference
of
>the expected behaviour.
>Functionally, as I said previously, it's important for the RS that is
used
>to authenticate a given user to contain an IP address that can be
attributed
>to that same user at the BNG.=20

I totally disagree using the source of the RS to authenticate a user!  I
agree with Konrad who says to use a L2 ID like line id in DSL.  In cable
broadband deployment we use a SID (Service ID of the cable modem).
Using source of a control message to authenticate a user is also very
poor form of authenticating users when one has well defined
authentication mechanisms.  Or if you meant delineate users rather than
authenticate users, then too, the source address of the RS does not make
sense.  One will again ask why the L2 ID of the broadband deployment is
not enough.  It would be good if one comes with a complete document to
the IETF 6man group like how Suresh Krishnan has done to explain his
needs of the DSL network and help define protocol to meet certain goals.
Then we discuss what if any, impact has any deployment on the IPv6 CE
Rtr.

Hemant



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Subject: RE: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 19:38:20 -0500
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Wojciech Dec (wdec)
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 10:50 AM
To: Philip Homburg
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04=20


>The issue is one of overwriting ND cache entries in the BNG, by having
one
>customer spoof another's LL address.

Hmm, unless the DSL deployment is explained better in an IETF document
we will thrash forever discussing issues in DSL.  So now I can only
reply based on a guess for what the DSL network may look like.  Why is
the BNG not using some identifier like a line id and not letting another
customer spoof a LL address in the BNG's neighbor cache?  The  DSL
broadband standards should be able to fix such a basic problem.

Hemant


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 29 00:07:43 2010
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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 09:01:31 +0200
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" , Philip Homburg 
CC: 
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Thread-Topic: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
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On 29/04/2010 02:38, "Hemant Singh (shemant)"  wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Wojciech Dec (wdec)
> Sent: Monday, April 26, 2010 10:50 AM
> To: Philip Homburg
> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
> 
> 
>> The issue is one of overwriting ND cache entries in the BNG, by having
> one
>> customer spoof another's LL address.
> 
> Hmm, unless the DSL deployment is explained better in an IETF document
> we will thrash forever discussing issues in DSL.  So now I can only
> reply based on a guess for what the DSL network may look like.  Why is
> the BNG not using some identifier like a line id and not letting another
> customer spoof a LL address in the BNG's neighbor cache?  The  DSL
> broadband standards should be able to fix such a basic problem.

There is NOTHING DSL specific about IPv6 address spoofing on a shared access
medium (eg ethernet, docsis, wireless, etc).
In order to use a line-id, there has to be some way of associating the
line-id to an address. If the line-id arrives in an RS message without an IP
address, doing so gets complicated.

-Woj.

> 
> Hemant



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 29 00:26:29 2010
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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 09:23:47 +0200
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" , Konrad Rosenbaum 
CC: Philip Homburg , 
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On 29/04/2010 02:21, "Hemant Singh (shemant)"  wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Wojciech Dec (wdec)
> Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 7:27 AM
> To: Konrad Rosenbaum
> Cc: Philip Homburg; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
> 
> 
>> That is an implementation detail. One can well argue that the CPE spec
> goes
>> beyond vanilla router v6 stacks in a number of other areas, eg the
> handling
>> of the RA flags. The BBF spec goes into even finer detail, and IMO it
> would
>> be a bit naive to have the CPE spec just represent some status quo of
> v6
>> implementations; we have a CPE spec so that vendors can build to it
> CPEs and
>> other devices (CMTSes, BNGs, etc), and operators have a model reference
> of
>> the expected behaviour.
>> Functionally, as I said previously, it's important for the RS that is
> used
>> to authenticate a given user to contain an IP address that can be
> attributed
>> to that same user at the BNG.
> 
> I totally disagree using the source of the RS to authenticate a user!  I
> agree with Konrad who says to use a L2 ID like line id in DSL.  In cable
> broadband deployment we use a SID (Service ID of the cable modem).

It appears that you have not followed the discussion (the source address is
to be used to bind the address to a user, not to authenticate), nor read
draft-krishnan-rs-mark or savi activities. I suggest that you do so, incl
the extensive mail archives on those topics, and come back explaining your
technical concerns more clearly.

-Woj.

> Using source of a control message to authenticate a user is also very
> poor form of authenticating users when one has well defined
> authentication mechanisms.  Or if you meant delineate users rather than
> authenticate users, then too, the source address of the RS does not make
> sense.  One will again ask why the L2 ID of the broadband deployment is
> not enough.  It would be good if one comes with a complete document to
> the IETF 6man group like how Suresh Krishnan has done to explain his
> needs of the DSL network and help define protocol to meet certain goals.
> Then we discuss what if any, impact has any deployment on the IPv6 CE
> Rtr.
> 
> Hemant
> 



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 29 00:38:37 2010
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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 09:36:42 +0200
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: Philip Homburg 
CC: 
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Thread-Topic: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
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On 28/04/2010 19:45, "Philip Homburg"  wrote:

> In your letter dated Wed, 28 Apr 2010 13:27:28 +0200 you wrote:
>> The BBF spec goes into even finer detail, and IMO it would
>> be a bit naive to have the CPE spec just represent some status quo of v6
>> implementations; we have a CPE spec so that vendors can build to it CPEs and
>> other devices (CMTSes, BNGs, etc), and operators have a model reference of
>> the expected behaviour.
> 
> We are not talking about random behavior of some implementation. These
> are features of the protocols that are explicitly allowed by the standards.
> 
> For example, the neighbor discovery RFC could be updated to include that the
> host can send RS messages with the unspecified address as long as DAD is
> not finished for the link-local address. And that they should send at least
> a certain number of RS messages with the link-local address as source
> (unless an RA is received before that time).
> 
> I think that would help implementators and end-users a lot more than random
> requirements in a CPE spec.

Indeed that may be a nice thing, however I'm sure you appreciate that the
practicalities of changing an rfc are very different from clarifying or
tightening some rfc behavior on a device meant to fulfill a specific role
(eg the CPE). 
The behavior expected with respect to certain RA flags has been discussed
for years, with ambiguous conclusions. As such, it's very pragmatic that the
CPE draft lays down more clarity in some areas, esp. When they have the
potential to make the behavior of the system more deterministic. As such
these requirements are anything but random.

-Woj. 


> 
> 



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 29 07:16:44 2010
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Subject: RE: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 09:11:51 -0500
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" 
To: "Wojciech Dec (wdec)" , "Philip Homburg" 
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-----Original Message-----
From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
Behalf Of Wojciech Dec (wdec)
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 3:37 AM
To: Philip Homburg
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04=20


>Indeed that may be a nice thing, however I'm sure you appreciate that
the
>practicalities of changing an rfc are very different from clarifying or
>tightening some rfc behavior on a device meant to fulfill a specific
role
>(eg the CPE).=20
>The behavior expected with respect to certain RA flags has been
discussed
>for years, with ambiguous conclusions. As such, it's very pragmatic
that the
>CPE draft lays down more clarity in some areas, esp. When they have the
>potential to make the behavior of the system more deterministic. As
such
>these requirements are anything but random.

I agree with Woj totally on this one.  The IPv6 CE Rtr can tighten text
rather than going back to changing any RFCs.  For example, we could add
text to the IPv6 CE Rtr saying the device sends up to three RS's and
then given up IPv6 address acquisition if no RA is received.  Cable
modems in Docsis 3.0 have such a specification. The IPv6 CE Rtr can also
tighten text to say the RS must include a source address and if source
address is included in the RS, note, one can also include the source
link-layer address option in the RS as well.  However, it is always good
to first understand why a certain deployment cannot do without the RS
being sent with a specified src-address rather than an unspecified
address.

Hemant=20


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 29 07:17:08 2010
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Subject: RE: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
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From: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" 
To: "Wojciech Dec (wdec)" , "Konrad Rosenbaum" 
Cc: "Philip Homburg" , 
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-----Original Message-----
From: Wojciech Dec (wdec)=20
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 3:24 AM
To: Hemant Singh (shemant); Konrad Rosenbaum
Cc: Philip Homburg; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04


>It appears that you have not followed the discussion (the source
address is
>to be used to bind the address to a user, not to authenticate), nor
read
>draft-krishnan-rs-mark or savi activities. I suggest that you do so,
incl
>the extensive mail archives on those topics, and come back explaining
your
>technical concerns more clearly.

I wanted to clarify why the term of authenticate was used as snipped
below from one of the emails on this thread.=20

"Functionally, as I said previously, it's important for the RS that is
used to authenticate a given user to contain an IP address that can be
attributed to that same user at the BNG."

Further, I have been following Suresh's documents in 6man and that WG
has not agreed to his documents yet.  It's not like I have not read the
documents.   I have basic fundamental questions like what others (Thomas
Narten for one) in 6man have asked on RA marking - what exactly is the
DSL problem that work of such drafts is needed?  What is there to read
when not a single DSL related document has been accepted as a 6man WG
work item?  As for SAVI activities, it is interesting to me that SAVI
for DSL is being worked on when 6man doesn't even agree upon what is the
DSL IPv6 data problem that needs specification.  I am responding do this
thread for the IPv6 CE Rtr trying to understand what extra reqs need to
go into the CE Rtr document.  The IPv6 CE Rtr document does not want to
include any text for issues in a state of flux.  Why is the RS with
unspecified src address a problem but the NS(DAD) with unspecified src
address not a problem?  Doesn't DSL have to deal with NS(DAD)? Or have
DSL standards dispensed with NS(DAD)?  These are the issues that first
need some clarity in the IETF before one can jump to SAVI or adding reqs
to the IPv6 CE Rtr. =20

Hemant=20





From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 29 07:32:37 2010
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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 16:29:23 +0200
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
From: Wojciech Dec 
To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" 
CC: 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
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On 29/04/2010 16:05, "Hemant Singh (shemant)"  wrote:

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Wojciech Dec (wdec)
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 3:24 AM
> To: Hemant Singh (shemant); Konrad Rosenbaum
> Cc: Philip Homburg; v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
> 
> 
>> It appears that you have not followed the discussion (the source
> address is
>> to be used to bind the address to a user, not to authenticate), nor
> read
>> draft-krishnan-rs-mark or savi activities. I suggest that you do so,
> incl
>> the extensive mail archives on those topics, and come back explaining
> your
>> technical concerns more clearly.
> 
> I wanted to clarify why the term of authenticate was used as snipped
> below from one of the emails on this thread.
> 
> "Functionally, as I said previously, it's important for the RS that is
> used to authenticate a given user to contain an IP address that can be
> attributed to that same user at the BNG."
> 
> Further, I have been following Suresh's documents in 6man and that WG
> has not agreed to his documents yet.  It's not like I have not read the
> documents.   I have basic fundamental questions like what others (Thomas
> Narten for one) in 6man have asked on RA marking - what exactly is the
> DSL problem that work of such drafts is needed?  What is there to read
> when not a single DSL related document has been accepted as a 6man WG
> work item?  As for SAVI activities, it is interesting to me that SAVI
> for DSL is being worked on when 6man doesn't even agree upon what is the
> DSL IPv6 data problem that needs specification.  I am responding do this
> thread for the IPv6 CE Rtr trying to understand what extra reqs need to
> go into the CE Rtr document.  The IPv6 CE Rtr document does not want to
> include any text for issues in a state of flux.  Why is the RS with
> unspecified src address a problem but the NS(DAD) with unspecified src
> address not a problem?  Doesn't DSL have to deal with NS(DAD)? Or have
> DSL standards dispensed with NS(DAD)?  These are the issues that first
> need some clarity in the IETF before one can jump to SAVI or adding reqs
> to the IPv6 CE Rtr.

In terms of DSL specifics: Please re-read my other reply "There is NOTHING
DSL specific about IPv6 address spoofing on a shared access medium (eg
ethernet, docsis, wireless, etc). " RA marking is something that may get
used irrespective of access medium too.

Other than asking for the why's (which would be explained should you follow
my earlier suggestion of understanding both ip address binding concepts
(SAVI) and 6man progress) please clarify what issue do you see with the CPE
requirement for the RS to come out with a specified IP address, which is the
only requirement.
Your reply so far indicates that the only reason for your objection is
non-technical.

-Woj.

> 
> Hemant 
> 
> 
> 



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 29 08:24:00 2010
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To: Wojciech Dec 
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Philip Homburg 
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 Apr 2010 20:00:51 +0200 ."  
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:19:21 +0200
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In your letter dated Wed, 28 Apr 2010 20:00:51 +0200 you wrote:
>Why aren't you also claiming that M and O flag behaviour as specified by
>this document requires a change of 4861? That same logic of tightening the
>spec to fit a specific type of device applies there too, and arguably is one
>of the main values of this draft.

Because in my opinion those flags are for the autoconfiguration of hosts.
And the only must I could find in the draft is that router must do a DHCPv6
request for a prefix.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 29 08:54:30 2010
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To: Ole Troan 
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Philip Homburg 
References:   <20100428074818.18741202@opy.nosense.org>   
In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:47:25 +0200 ."  
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 17:51:58 +0200
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In your letter dated Wed, 28 Apr 2010 21:47:25 +0200 you wrote:
> > Some ISP do not assign any address to the WAN link and the DHCP-DP RFC prev
> ents
> > me from assigning a address from the prefix to that link. That annoys me to
>  no
> > end.
> 
> I don't understand what the problem with this is. the CPE draft
> recommends that an address is configured on an internal interface.
> why does it matter to which interface the address is on?

Because, with picking a global address from a random interface it is mich
harder to ensure the ICMP error gets te source address I want it to have.

And also because the reason for disallowing it is not all that strong.

> > But worse, when every ISP comes up with an arbitrary list of features (and
> > requirements) it becomes almost impossible to help a random person with his
> > internet connection.  Oh, you don't have a global IP address on WAN link, i
> s
> > that normal because the ISP doesn't assign one, or did something go wrong?
> > Neighbor discovery doesn't work, is that normal because the ISP disabled it
> ,
> > or is something really broken. You only know if you know the details of
> > every ISP.
> 
> what arbitrary features are those? there are 3 addressing models.
> SLAAC, DHCPv6 and "unnumbered".  all models use SLAAC.  ND is used.
> I'm not aware of anything that requires 'details of every ISP' to
> understand.

If you come across a CPE that fails in some unspecified way (somebody asked you
for help because the Internet is down or something like that) how do know
what is normal or not?

Not all CPE have extensive debug interfaces where you dump all packets.

If all links have global IP addresses then you know what is going on if you
find one that doesn't.

I don't know about the 'ND is used' part. But my ISP's router does not respond
to NS messages (on a PPP link). I think they believe that that's allowed by
the standards. Are you saying it isn't?

> > But more practically speaking, how do you know the global IPv6 address of
> > your customer? With SLAAC you would have to know the MAC address to even
> > guess that address. Do you guess it based on the link-local address? Do you
> > call the customer? What if the customers CPE uses temporary (privacy)
> > addresses?
> 
> if you are an SP that requires to know the customers address, then
> you use DHCPv6 for address assignment.


> > With prefix delegation, a router is very likely to have at least one global
> > address from the delegated prefix.
> 
> yes. are you arguing that this address should be well known? since
> there is no way you can assign that via DHCP. or are you arguing
> that there should be a mechanism to discover it? e.g by using the
> subnet-router anycast address?

If people want to ping routers that get a prefix using PD then that seems to
be a sensible approach. 




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 29 09:05:06 2010
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Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
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From: Ole Troan 
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Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 18:03:08 +0200
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References:   <20100428074818.18741202@opy.nosense.org>    
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Philip,

>>> Some ISP do not assign any address to the WAN link and the DHCP-DP =
RFC prev
>> ents
>>> me from assigning a address from the prefix to that link. That =
annoys me to
>> no
>>> end.
>>=20
>> I don't understand what the problem with this is. the CPE draft
>> recommends that an address is configured on an internal interface.
>> why does it matter to which interface the address is on?
>=20
> Because, with picking a global address from a random interface it is =
mich
> harder to ensure the ICMP error gets te source address I want it to =
have.

who are you?
for a an ICMP message sent by the CPE to some remote destination I can =
hardly see it matters.

> And also because the reason for disallowing it is not all that strong.
>=20
>>> But worse, when every ISP comes up with an arbitrary list of =
features (and
>>> requirements) it becomes almost impossible to help a random person =
with his
>>> internet connection.  Oh, you don't have a global IP address on WAN =
link, i
>> s
>>> that normal because the ISP doesn't assign one, or did something go =
wrong?
>>> Neighbor discovery doesn't work, is that normal because the ISP =
disabled it
>> ,
>>> or is something really broken. You only know if you know the details =
of
>>> every ISP.
>>=20
>> what arbitrary features are those? there are 3 addressing models.
>> SLAAC, DHCPv6 and "unnumbered".  all models use SLAAC.  ND is used.
>> I'm not aware of anything that requires 'details of every ISP' to
>> understand.
>=20
> If you come across a CPE that fails in some unspecified way (somebody =
asked you
> for help because the Internet is down or something like that) how do =
know
> what is normal or not?

I would love to be able to tell SPs exactly how they should operate =
their networks. perhaps luckily for them I can't.

> Not all CPE have extensive debug interfaces where you dump all =
packets.

I would expect them to be able to show you the contents of received RAs =
though.

> If all links have global IP addresses then you know what is going on =
if you
> find one that doesn't.

but that's not quite what you are advocating. an address from the =
delegated prefix is may be configured on the interface, but the prefix =
certainly wouldn't be on-link.

> I don't know about the 'ND is used' part. But my ISP's router does not =
respond
> to NS messages (on a PPP link). I think they believe that that's =
allowed by
> the standards. Are you saying it isn't?

no. e.g NUD should be supported on any link, including PPP links.

>>> But more practically speaking, how do you know the global IPv6 =
address of
>>> your customer? With SLAAC you would have to know the MAC address to =
even
>>> guess that address. Do you guess it based on the link-local address? =
Do you
>>> call the customer? What if the customers CPE uses temporary =
(privacy)
>>> addresses?
>>=20
>> if you are an SP that requires to know the customers address, then
>> you use DHCPv6 for address assignment.
>=20
>=20
>>> With prefix delegation, a router is very likely to have at least one =
global
>>> address from the delegated prefix.
>>=20
>> yes. are you arguing that this address should be well known? since
>> there is no way you can assign that via DHCP. or are you arguing
>> that there should be a mechanism to discover it? e.g by using the
>> subnet-router anycast address?
>=20
> If people want to ping routers that get a prefix using PD then that =
seems to
> be a sensible approach.=20

I suppose we are digressing here... my apologies.

cheers,
Ole



From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 29 10:51:51 2010
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To: Ole Troan 
Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
From: Philip Homburg 
References:   <20100428074818.18741202@opy.nosense.org>     
In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 29 Apr 2010 18:03:08 +0200 ."  
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 19:46:15 +0200
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In your letter dated Thu, 29 Apr 2010 18:03:08 +0200 you wrote:
> > If you come across a CPE that fails in some unspecified way (somebody asked
>  you
> > for help because the Internet is down or something like that) how do know
> > what is normal or not?
> 
> I would love to be able to tell SPs exactly how they should operate
> their networks. perhaps luckily for them I can't.

I think to some extent we are doing that. By setting standards.

> > Not all CPE have extensive debug interfaces where you dump all packets.
> 
> I would expect them to be able to show you the contents of received
> RAs though.

Sure? I never seen any of the low-end CPE device show the contents of a DHCP
or the PPP options that are negotiated. 

In a (be it experimental release) of a CPE with IPv6 stack you can't
figure out what DUID the device is using. 

> > If all links have global IP addresses then you know what is going on if you
> > find one that doesn't.
> 
> but that's not quite what you are advocating. an address from the
> delegated prefix is may be configured on the interface, but the
> prefix certainly wouldn't be on-link.

That's two separate issues. One is that I'd like to be able to assign a
subset of my prefix to the WAN link. The second issue is that ISPs seem to
create an almost endless variety of different way in which they implement
IPv6.


> > I don't know about the 'ND is used' part. But my ISP's router does not resp
> ond
> > to NS messages (on a PPP link). I think they believe that that's allowed by
> > the standards. Are you saying it isn't?
> 
> no. e.g NUD should be supported on any link, including PPP links.

I'll ask them. 

I think this an area where it may make sense to have some explicit text in
the CPE draft. Because even though by disabling ND my ISP seems to have broken
NUD, none the users ever discovered this or reported a problem. So it looks
as if every PPP implementation just assumes that there is no ND.




From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Thu Apr 29 11:02:34 2010
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Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
From: james woodyatt 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Thu, 29 Apr 2010 12:00:43 -0600
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everyone--

I don't understand the logic here.

In the kind of network described in I-D.6man-krishnan-rs-mark-04, when a =
CPE node sends a router solicitation from the unspecified source =
address, the AN need not forward it to other attached CPE.  It only =
needs to be forwarded through the LIO tunnel to the edge router.  When =
the edge router receives this router solicitation, it responds with a =
router advertisement to the all-hosts multicast address, which =
I-D.6man-krishnan-rs-mark-04 says MUST be sent back to the AN through =
the LIO option tunnel.  The AN then decapsulates the advertisement and =
sends it back to the originating CPE only because it has the line =
identifier.

I see no problem here that requires tighter language in =
I-D.ietf-v6ops-cpe-router than appears in RFC 4861.


--
james woodyatt 
member of technical staff, communications engineering




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 The TomTom XL 340S Bundle includes the TomTom XL 340S device plus a Soft Quilted Carry Case. Switch on and go right out of the box. Spoken turn-by-turn instructions including street names will guide you to any address in the US, Canada and Mexico--including more than 7 million preloaded points of interest.
  
 
 		 
  
 		 
  
 		 
  
 		 
 

  
  
 
  
  
 		 
  
 		 
  
 		 
 		 
 
 

 

 
   

 

 
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From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 30 07:39:54 2010
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From: james woodyatt 
To: IPv6 v6ops 
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Subject: Re: " Internal-external" rather than "interior-exterior" in CPE-simple-security draft
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This was a deliberate choice to use the terminology of routing domains =20=

and not address realms.  There is no NAT here, only routing, so I felt =20=

it was important to retain consistency with the lexicon of routing, =20
and not use the word contrived for the purpose of distinguishing =20
between address realms and routing domains.

--jhw (sent from my phone)

On Apr 30, 2010, at 1:53, R=C3=A9mi Despr=C3=A9s  =
wrote:

> James,
>
> The draft uses "interior" and "exterior", while the traditional =20
> vocabulary for NATs is AFAIK "internal" and "external" (e.g. in RFC =20=

> 4787).
> A suggestion would be to align the vocabulary.
>
> Regard,
> RD
>
>


From owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org  Fri Apr 30 09:29:24 2010
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From: Mark Smith 
To: "Hemant Singh (shemant)" 
Cc: "Wojciech Dec (wdec)" , "Philip Homburg" , 
Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04
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On Thu, 29 Apr 2010 09:11:51 -0500
"Hemant Singh (shemant)"  wrote:

> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org [mailto:owner-v6ops@ops.ietf.org] On
> Behalf Of Wojciech Dec (wdec)
> Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2010 3:37 AM
> To: Philip Homburg
> Cc: v6ops@ops.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: RS sending in draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-04 
> 
> 
> >Indeed that may be a nice thing, however I'm sure you appreciate that
> the
> >practicalities of changing an rfc are very different from clarifying or
> >tightening some rfc behavior on a device meant to fulfill a specific
> role
> >(eg the CPE). 
> >The behavior expected with respect to certain RA flags has been
> discussed
> >for years, with ambiguous conclusions. As such, it's very pragmatic
> that the
> >CPE draft lays down more clarity in some areas, esp. When they have the
> >potential to make the behavior of the system more deterministic. As
> such
> >these requirements are anything but random.
> 
> I agree with Woj totally on this one.  The IPv6 CE Rtr can tighten text
> rather than going back to changing any RFCs.  For example, we could add
> text to the IPv6 CE Rtr saying the device sends up to three RS's and
> then given up IPv6 address acquisition if no RA is received.  Cable
> modems in Docsis 3.0 have such a specification.

I never think DOCSIS should ever be used as an example of how to do
something properly. They made the fundamental mistake of making a layer
2 technology layer 3 aware. If only they'd kept to the layer they are
supposed to be operating at (i.e. layer 2), then they wouldn't have to
be rolling out DOCSIS v3 to support IPv6, at a very great expense to
themselves and, ultimately, their customers.

If that argument isn't clear, realise that everybody else in the
Ethernet/ADSL/frame relay/ATM/Token Ring/ArcNet/PPP/HDLC/SDLC world
isn't having to roll out a new revision of their layer 2 technology
just to support a new layer 3 protocol.


 The IPv6 CE Rtr can also
> tighten text to say the RS must include a source address and if source
> address is included in the RS, note, one can also include the source
> link-layer address option in the RS as well.  However, it is always good
> to first understand why a certain deployment cannot do without the RS
> being sent with a specified src-address rather than an unspecified
> address.
> 
> Hemant 
> 


From v6ops-archive@ietf.org  Fri Apr 30 21:37:40 2010
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