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From: "cb.list6" <cb.list6@gmail.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-03.txt
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On Apr 30, 2013 9:48 PM, "Lorenzo Colitti" <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:
>
> I object to the text "List in one single document all requirements a
mobile device is to comply with to connect to an IPv6 or dual-stack mobile
network."
>
> There are tens of millions of consumer devices out there that connect to
dual-stack mobile networks every day, and yet none of them meet all the
requirements of this document. Actually, I bet none of them even meet all
the MUSTs in the document.
>

Correction. There are 10s of millions of devices that connect to *a* dual
stack mobile network. There is only one that is default on, afaik. And
devices that work on that network, afaik, don't work on anyone else's
network (except iPhone ?). right ?

Everything at vzw is a one off (this is an exaggeration), and it is naive
to say what works for them works for others (they are a cdma + LTE network,
which is a rare bird globally, and not in scope for this document)

This document is not a statement of where vzw is today.  This document is a
statement of what a rough consensus  of the ietf is, and the discussion is
guided by 3gpp operators who participate in ietf.

That said, I am not strongly attached to the wording in question.

Send text.

CB

> So obviously, mobile devices don't need to comply with these requirements
"to connect to an IPv6 or dual-stack mobile network".
>
> Please remove the text or reword it to reflect reality.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 2:58 PM, <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts
directories.
>>  This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the
IETF.
>>
>>         Title           : Internet Protocol Version 6 (IPv6) Profile for
3GPP Mobile Devices
>>         Author(s)       : David Binet
>>                           Mohamed Boucadair
>>                           Ales Vizdal
>>                           Cameron Byrne
>>                           Gang Chen
>>         Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-03.txt
>>         Pages           : 17
>>         Date            : 2013-04-29
>>
>> Abstract:
>>    This document specifies an IPv6 profile for 3GPP mobile devices.  It
>>    lists the set of features a 3GPP mobile device is to be compliant
>>    with to connect to an IPv6-only or dual-stack wireless network
>>    (including 3GPP cellular network and IEEE 802.11 network).
>>
>>    This document defines a different profile than the one for general
>>    connection to IPv6 cellular networks defined in
>>    [I-D.ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis].  In particular, this document identifies
>>    also features to deliver IPv4 connectivity service over an IPv6-only
>>    transport.
>>
>>    Both hosts and devices with capability to share their WAN (Wide Area
>>    Network) connectivity are in scope.
>>
>>
>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile
>>
>> There's also a htmlized version available at:
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-03
>>
>> A diff from the previous version is available at:
>>
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-03
>>
>>
>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

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<p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
On Apr 30, 2013 9:48 PM, &quot;Lorenzo Colitti&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
lorenzo@google.com">lorenzo@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I object to the text &quot;List in one single document all requirement=
s a mobile device is to comply with to connect to an IPv6 or dual-stack mob=
ile network.&quot;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; There are tens of millions of consumer devices out there that connect =
to dual-stack mobile networks every day, and yet none of them meet all the =
requirements of this document. Actually, I bet none of them even meet all t=
he MUSTs in the document.<br>

&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Correction. There are 10s of millions of devices that connec=
t to *a* dual stack mobile network. There is only one that is default on, a=
faik. And devices that work on that network, afaik, don&#39;t work on anyon=
e else&#39;s network (except iPhone ?). right ? </p>

<p dir=3D"ltr">Everything at vzw is a one off (this is an exaggeration), an=
d it is naive to say what works for them works for others (they are a cdma =
+ LTE network, which is a rare bird globally, and not in scope for this doc=
ument)</p>

<p dir=3D"ltr">This document is not a statement of where vzw is today.=A0 T=
his document is a statement of what a rough consensus=A0 of the ietf is, an=
d the discussion is guided by 3gpp operators who participate in ietf. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">That said, I am not strongly attached to the wording in ques=
tion. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Send text. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">CB</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; So obviously, mobile devices don&#39;t need to comply w=
ith these requirements &quot;to connect to an IPv6 or dual-stack mobile net=
work&quot;.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Please remove the text or reword it to reflect reality.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 2:58 PM, &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts=
@ietf.org">internet-drafts@ietf.org</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts=
 directories.<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group =
of the IETF.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : Internet Protocol Vers=
ion 6 (IPv6) Profile for 3GPP Mobile Devices<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 : David Binet<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Mohamed Boucad=
air<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Ales Vizdal<br=
>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Cameron Byrne<=
br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Gang Chen<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Filename =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-=
device-profile-03.txt<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Pages =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : 17<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Date =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: 2013-04-29<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Abstract:<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0This document specifies an IPv6 profile for 3GPP mobile dev=
ices. =A0It<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0lists the set of features a 3GPP mobile device is to be com=
pliant<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0with to connect to an IPv6-only or dual-stack wireless netw=
ork<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0(including 3GPP cellular network and IEEE 802.11 network).<=
br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0This document defines a different profile than the one for =
general<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0connection to IPv6 cellular networks defined in<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0[I-D.ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis]. =A0In particular, this documen=
t identifies<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0also features to deliver IPv4 connectivity service over an =
IPv6-only<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0transport.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0Both hosts and devices with capability to share their WAN (=
Wide Area<br>
&gt;&gt; =A0 =A0Network) connectivity are in scope.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobil=
e-device-profile">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-=
device-profile</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; There&#39;s also a htmlized version available at:<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-devi=
ce-profile-03">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-pr=
ofile-03</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; A diff from the previous version is available at:<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-mob=
ile-device-profile-03">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-=
mobile-device-profile-03</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/">ftp://ftp.ietf.org=
/internet-drafts/</a><br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt;&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops">https://ww=
w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops">https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
&gt;<br>
</p>

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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 11:04 PM, cb.list6 <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:

> > I object to the text "List in one single document all requirements a
> mobile device is to comply with to connect to an IPv6 or dual-stack mobile
> network."
> >
> > There are tens of millions of consumer devices out there that connect to
> dual-stack mobile networks every day, and yet none of them meet all the
> requirements of this document. Actually, I bet none of them even meet all
> the MUSTs in the document.
> >
>
> Correction. There are 10s of millions of devices that connect to *a* dual
> stack mobile network. There is only one that is default on, afaik. And
> devices that work on that network, afaik, don't work on anyone else's
> network (except iPhone ?). right ?
>
Fair point. But this document is not about interoperability. It's a
document that mostly says "device manufacturers, you must implement all
these technologies in order to connect".

>  Everything at vzw is a one off (this is an exaggeration), and it is
> naive to say what works for them works for others (they are a cdma + LTE
> network, which is a rare bird globally, and not in scope for this document)
>
Actually, from an IPv6 perspective (which is really all this document
should cover, because the other stuff is in the realm of 3GPP), the basic
setup is pretty standard - IPV4V6 PDP type, DNS via PCO, and that's it.
Basically requirements 1, 4, 7, 8, 11 and 32. The other 29 (!!!)
requirements in this document are not implemented because they are not
needed.

And that's the point. We must not make the statement that all these things
are requirements, because if by some unlucky chance the community believes
that statement, then we will never see deployment of IPv6 in mobile
networks - people will just look at all the list of requirements and give
up without even trying.

You know as well as I do that supporting one IPV6 PDP type and 464xlat is
sufficient to start a mobile deployment. Then why does this document have
35 requirements?

> This document is not a statement of where vzw is today.  This document is
> a statement of what a rough consensus  of the ietf is, and the discussion
> is guided by 3gpp operators who participate in ietf.
>
None of which operators have networks that require - or even support - all
the requirements in this specification. Only a slim few of which operators
have an IPv6-capable network at all. And that's the point. The operator who
deployed IPv6 did so without needing all this stuff. And I can guarantee
that any operator who waits for all this stuff to be implemented will not
deploy IPv6 in any reasonable timeframe.

>  That said, I am not strongly attached to the wording in question.
>
> Send text.
>
"List all the technologies that the v6ops working group thinks might be
useful in a mobile device, including technologies still at the draft stage."

... because at the end of the day that's what this document contains.
Except for a very small number, the requirements in this doc aren't
required to connect or deploy (and Verizon Wireless's network is an
existence proof of that). Since they're not required, we can't call them
requirements. And if they're not requirements, then what are they?
Nice-to-haves? Suggestions? We can say they're the technologies we'd like
to see deployed in mobile networks, but that doesn't really have much value
from a technical perspective...

An alternative is "List the technologies that if implemented in a mobile
device is likely to provide the greatest IPv6 functionality in the largest
number of current and future deployment scenarios".

This is an improvement on the current text insofar as it does not contain a
false statement ("Lists [...] all requirements a mobile device is to comply
with to connect").

--001a11c21a8cecfc9a04dba97b91
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 11:04 PM, cb.list6 <span dir=3D"ltr=
">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">cb.list6@gmai=
l.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gma=
il_quote">


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div><p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; I object to the text &quot;List i=
n one single document all requirements a mobile device is to comply with to=
 connect to an IPv6 or dual-stack mobile network.&quot;<br>



&gt;<br>
&gt; There are tens of millions of consumer devices out there that connect =
to dual-stack mobile networks every day, and yet none of them meet all the =
requirements of this document. Actually, I bet none of them even meet all t=
he MUSTs in the document.<br>




&gt;</p>
</div><p dir=3D"ltr">Correction. There are 10s of millions of devices that =
connect to *a* dual stack mobile network. There is only one that is default=
 on, afaik. And devices that work on that network, afaik, don&#39;t work on=
 anyone else&#39;s network (except iPhone ?). right ?</p>


</blockquote><div>Fair point. But this document is not about interoperabili=
ty. It&#39;s a document that mostly says &quot;device manufacturers, you mu=
st implement all these technologies in order to connect&quot;.<br>
</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr"> </p>

<p dir=3D"ltr">Everything at vzw is a one off (this is an exaggeration), an=
d it is naive to say what works for them works for others (they are a cdma =
+ LTE network, which is a rare bird globally, and not in scope for this doc=
ument)</p>


</blockquote><div>Actually, from an IPv6 perspective (which is really all t=
his document should cover, because the other stuff is in the realm of 3GPP)=
, the basic setup is pretty standard - IPV4V6 PDP type, DNS via PCO, and th=
at&#39;s it. Basically requirements 1, 4, 7, 8, 11 and 32. The other 29 (!!=
!) requirements in this document are not implemented because they are not n=
eeded.</div>


<div><br></div><div>And that&#39;s the point. We must not make the statemen=
t that all these things are requirements, because if by some unlucky chance=
 the community believes that statement, then we will never see deployment o=
f IPv6 in mobile networks - people will just look at all the list of requir=
ements and give up without even trying.</div>


<div><br></div><div>You know as well as I do that supporting one IPV6 PDP t=
ype and 464xlat is sufficient to start a mobile deployment. Then why does t=
his document have 35 requirements?<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quot=
e" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-colo=
r:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">




<p dir=3D"ltr">This document is not a statement of where vzw is today.=A0 T=
his document is a statement of what a rough consensus=A0 of the ietf is, an=
d the discussion is guided by 3gpp operators who participate in ietf.</p></=
blockquote>


<div>None of which operators have networks that require - or even support -=
 all the requirements in this specification. Only a slim few of which opera=
tors have an IPv6-capable network at all. And that&#39;s the point. The ope=
rator who deployed IPv6 did so without needing all this stuff. And I can gu=
arantee that any operator who waits for all this stuff to be implemented wi=
ll not deploy IPv6 in any reasonable timeframe.</div>


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><p dir=3D"ltr"> </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">That said, I am not strongly attached to the wording in ques=
tion. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Send text.=A0</p></blockquote><div>&quot;List all the techno=
logies that the v6ops working group thinks might be useful in a mobile devi=
ce, including technologies still at the draft stage.&quot;</div><div>
<br></div><div>... because at the end of the day that&#39;s what this docum=
ent contains. Except for a very small number, the requirements in this doc =
aren&#39;t required to connect or deploy (and Verizon Wireless&#39;s networ=
k is an existence proof of that). Since they&#39;re not required, we can&#3=
9;t call them requirements. And if they&#39;re not requirements, then what =
are they? Nice-to-haves? Suggestions? We can say they&#39;re the technologi=
es we&#39;d like to see deployed in mobile networks, but that doesn&#39;t r=
eally have much value from a technical perspective...</div>


<div><br></div><div>An alternative is &quot;List the technologies that if i=
mplemented in a mobile device is likely to provide the greatest IPv6 functi=
onality in the largest number of current and future deployment scenarios&qu=
ot;.</div>


<div><br></div><div>This is an improvement on the current text insofar as i=
t does not contain a false statement (&quot;Lists [...] all requirements a =
mobile device is to comply with to connect&quot;).</div></div>
</div></div>

--001a11c21a8cecfc9a04dba97b91--

From mohamed.boucadair@orange.com  Wed May  1 23:33:34 2013
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From: <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 08:33:22 +0200
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-03.txt
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action:	draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-03.txt
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Lorenzo,

Since you think the wording is confusing, what about making this change:

OLD:
List in one single document all requirements ...

NEW:
List in one single document a comprehensive list of requirements ...

Better?

Cheers,
Med


De : v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de L=
orenzo Colitti
Envoy=E9 : mercredi 1 mai 2013 06:46
=C0 : internet-drafts@ietf.org
Cc : v6ops@ietf.org WG; i-d-announce@ietf.org
Objet : Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-03.t=
xt

I object to the text "List in one single document all requirements a mobile=
 device is to comply with to connect to an IPv6 or dual-stack mobile networ=
k."

There are tens of millions of consumer devices out there that connect to du=
al-stack mobile networks every day, and yet none of them meet all the requi=
rements of this document. Actually, I bet none of them even meet all the MU=
STs in the document.

So obviously, mobile devices don't need to comply with these requirements "=
to connect to an IPv6 or dual-stack mobile network".

Please remove the text or reword it to reflect reality.


On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 2:58 PM, <internet-drafts@ietf.org<mailto:internet-=
drafts@ietf.org>> wrote:

A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF=
.

        Title           : Internet Protocol Version 6 (IPv6) Profile for 3G=
PP Mobile Devices
        Author(s)       : David Binet
                          Mohamed Boucadair
                          Ales Vizdal
                          Cameron Byrne
                          Gang Chen
        Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-03.txt
        Pages           : 17
        Date            : 2013-04-29

Abstract:
   This document specifies an IPv6 profile for 3GPP mobile devices.  It
   lists the set of features a 3GPP mobile device is to be compliant
   with to connect to an IPv6-only or dual-stack wireless network
   (including 3GPP cellular network and IEEE 802.11 network).

   This document defines a different profile than the one for general
   connection to IPv6 cellular networks defined in
   [I-D.ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis].  In particular, this document identifies
   also features to deliver IPv4 connectivity service over an IPv6-only
   transport.

   Both hosts and devices with capability to share their WAN (Wide Area
   Network) connectivity are in scope.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-0=
3


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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<html xmlns:v=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o=3D"urn:schemas-micr=
osoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w=3D"urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" =
xmlns:m=3D"http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns=3D"http:=
//www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=3DContent-Type content=
=3D"text/html; charset=3Diso-8859-1"><meta name=3DGenerator content=3D"Micr=
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<o:idmap v:ext=3D"edit" data=3D"1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=3DFR link=3Dblue vlink=
=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US=
 style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'>Lorenzo=
,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'fon=
t-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></s=
pan></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;f=
ont-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'>Since you think the wording is conf=
using, what about making this change:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNo=
rmal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"=
;color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=
=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'=
>OLD: <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'>List in one s=
ingle document all requirements &#8230;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMso=
Normal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier Ne=
w";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span la=
ng=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497=
D'>NEW:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=
=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'>List in one s=
ingle document a comprehensive list of requirements &#8230;<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=
=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Cour=
ier New";color:#1F497D'>Better?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><=
span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color=
:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-=
US style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'>Cheer=
s,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span lang=3DEN-US style=3D'fo=
nt-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'>Med</span><span sty=
le=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family=
:"Courier New";color:#1F497D'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><p class=3DMsoNor=
mal><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New";color:#1F497D=
'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><div style=3D'border:none;border-left:solid b=
lue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt'><div><div style=3D'border:none;border-=
top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm'><p class=3DMsoNormal><b>=
<span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif"'>De&nbsp;=
:</span></b><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-seri=
f"'> v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] <b>De la part d=
e</b> Lorenzo Colitti<br><b>Envoy=E9&nbsp;:</b> mercredi 1 mai 2013 06:46<b=
r><b>=C0&nbsp;:</b> internet-drafts@ietf.org<br><b>Cc&nbsp;:</b> v6ops@ietf=
.org WG; i-d-announce@ietf.org<br><b>Objet&nbsp;:</b> Re: [v6ops] I-D Actio=
n: draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-03.txt<o:p></o:p></span></p></div=
></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>=
I object to the text &quot;List in one single document all requirements a m=
obile device is to comply with to connect to an IPv6 or dual-stack mobile n=
etwork.&quot;<o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>=
</div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>There are tens of millions of consumer devi=
ces out there that connect to dual-stack mobile networks every day, and yet=
 none of them meet all the requirements of this document. Actually, I bet n=
one of them even meet all the MUSTs in the document.<o:p></o:p></p></div><d=
iv><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNorma=
l>So obviously, mobile devices don't need to comply with these requirements=
 &quot;to connect to an IPv6 or dual-stack mobile network&quot;.<o:p></o:p>=
</p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div><div><p clas=
s=3DMsoNormal>Please remove the text or reword it to reflect reality.<o:p><=
/o:p></p></div><div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div><=
div><p class=3DMsoNormal style=3D'margin-bottom:12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></=
p><div><p class=3DMsoNormal>On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 2:58 PM, &lt;<a href=3D=
"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts@ietf.or=
g</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p><p class=3DMsoNormal><br>A New Internet-Draf=
t is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.<br>&nbsp;This =
draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.<br><=
br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Title &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : I=
nternet Protocol Version 6 (IPv6) Profile for 3GPP Mobile Devices<br>&nbsp;=
 &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Author(s) &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; : David Binet<br>&nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; &nbsp; Mohamed Boucadair<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &=
nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Ales Vizdal<br>&nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nb=
sp; Cameron Byrne<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Gang Chen<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; Filename &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;: draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-pro=
file-03.txt<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Pages &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp=
; &nbsp; : 17<br>&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Date &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbs=
p; &nbsp; &nbsp;: 2013-04-29<br><br>Abstract:<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;This document=
 specifies an IPv6 profile for 3GPP mobile devices. &nbsp;It<br>&nbsp; &nbs=
p;lists the set of features a 3GPP mobile device is to be compliant<br>&nbs=
p; &nbsp;with to connect to an IPv6-only or dual-stack wireless network<br>=
&nbsp; &nbsp;(including 3GPP cellular network and IEEE 802.11 network).<br>=
<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;This document defines a different profile than the one for=
 general<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;connection to IPv6 cellular networks defined in<br=
>&nbsp; &nbsp;[I-D.ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis]. &nbsp;In particular, this docume=
nt identifies<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;also features to deliver IPv4 connectivity se=
rvice over an IPv6-only<br>&nbsp; &nbsp;transport.<br><br>&nbsp; &nbsp;Both=
 hosts and devices with capability to share their WAN (Wide Area<br>&nbsp; =
&nbsp;Network) connectivity are in scope.<br><br><br>The IETF datatracker s=
tatus page for this draft is:<br><a href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/do=
c/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile" target=3D"_blank">https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile</a><br><br>There's=
 also a htmlized version available at:<br><a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-03" target=3D"_blank">http://to=
ols.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-03</a><br><br>A di=
ff from the previous version is available at:<br><a href=3D"http://www.ietf=
.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-03" target=3D"_b=
lank">http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-pro=
file-03</a><br><br><br>Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP =
at:<br><a href=3D"ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/" target=3D"_blank">ft=
p://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/</a><br><br>______________________________=
_________________<br>v6ops mailing list<br><a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org=
">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br><a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6=
ops" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><o:p>=
</o:p></p></div><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p></div></div></div=
></body></html>=

--_000_94C682931C08B048B7A8645303FDC9F36ECB38D06BPUEXCB1Bnante_--

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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Thu, 2 May 2013 15:44:53 +0900
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To: "<mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>" <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile-03.txt
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--089e0149d27c980aa104dbb693ee
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On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 3:33 PM, <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com> wrote:

> OLD:
>
> List in one single document all requirements =85****
>
> ** **
>
> NEW:****
>
> List in one single document a comprehensive list of requirements =85
>

That doesn't fix the problem.

The problem I have with this sentence is not with the word "all". The
problem is that the rest of the sentence says "requirements a mobile device
is to comply with to connect".

That wording implies that mobile devices must comply with these
requirements to connect. But that's not true, because only a very small
number of the requirements in this doc (maybe 5 out of the 35 that you
currently have) are actually required to connect.

--089e0149d27c980aa104dbb693ee
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, May 2, 2013 at 3:33 PM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" target=3D"_blank">mohamed.bouc=
adair@orange.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">


<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"FR" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><p><span s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;;font-size:10=
pt">OLD:</span><br>


</p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courie=
r New&#39;;color:rgb(31,73,125)">List in one single document all requiremen=
ts =85<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:1=
0pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;;color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u>=A0<u></=
u></span></p>


<p><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier Ne=
w&#39;;color:rgb(31,73,125)">NEW:<u></u><u></u></span></p><p><span lang=3D"=
EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10pt;font-family:&#39;Courier New&#39;;color:rgb(=
31,73,125)">List in one single document a comprehensive list of requirement=
s =85</span></p>


</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>That doesn&#39;t fix the probl=
em.</div><div style><br></div><div>The problem I have with this sentence is=
 not with the word &quot;all&quot;. The problem is that the rest of the sen=
tence says &quot;requirements a mobile device is to comply with to connect&=
quot;.</div>

<div><br></div><div>That wording implies that mobile devices must comply wi=
th these requirements to connect. But that&#39;s not true,=A0because only a=
 very small number of the requirements in this doc (maybe 5 out of the 35 t=
hat you currently have) are actually required to connect.<br>

</div>
</div></div></div>

--089e0149d27c980aa104dbb693ee--

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Mon May  6 01:13:41 2013
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Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-02.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : IPv6 for 3GPP Cellular Hosts
	Author(s)       : Jouni Korhonen
                          Jari Arkko
                          Teemu Savolainen
                          Suresh Krishnan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-02.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2013-05-06

Abstract:
   As the deployment of third and fourth generation cellular networks
   progresses, a large number of cellular hosts are being connected to
   the Internet.  Standardization organizations are making Internet
   Protocol version 6 (IPv6) mandatory in their specifications.
   However, the concept of IPv6 covers many aspects and numerous
   specifications.  In addition, the characteristics of cellular links
   in terms of bandwidth, cost and delay put special requirements on how
   IPv6 is used.  This document considers IPv6 for cellular hosts that
   attach to the General Packet Radio Service (GPRS), Universal Mobile
   Telecommunications System (UMTS), or Evolved Packet System (EPS)
   networks (Hereafter collectively referred to as 3GPP networks).  This
   document also lists out specific IPv6 functionality that needs to be
   implemented in addition what is already prescribed in the IPv6 Node
   Requirements document.  It also discusses some issues relating to the
   use of these components when operating in these networks.  This
   document obsoletes RFC 3316.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-02

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-02


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From jouni.nospam@gmail.com  Mon May  6 01:16:16 2013
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Subject: [v6ops] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-02.txt
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Folks,

We have updated the RFC 3316bis based on the discussion/comments in the
last IETF. The I-D is getting to "about ready" state now.

- Jouni

Begin forwarded message:

> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-02.txt
> Date: May 6, 2013 11:13:41 AM GMT+03:00
> To: Teemu Savolainen <teemu.savolainen@nokia.com>, Jari Arkko =
<jari.arkko@piuha.net>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, Suresh =
Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com>
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-02.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Jouni Korhonen and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Filename:	 draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis
> Revision:	 02
> Title:		 IPv6 for 3GPP Cellular Hosts
> Creation date:	 2013-05-06
> Group:		 v6ops
> Number of pages: 19
> URL:             =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-02.txt
> Status:          =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis
> Htmlized:        =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-02
> Diff:            =
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-02
>=20
> Abstract:
>   As the deployment of third and fourth generation cellular networks
>   progresses, a large number of cellular hosts are being connected to
>   the Internet.  Standardization organizations are making Internet
>   Protocol version 6 (IPv6) mandatory in their specifications.
>   However, the concept of IPv6 covers many aspects and numerous
>   specifications.  In addition, the characteristics of cellular links
>   in terms of bandwidth, cost and delay put special requirements on =
how
>   IPv6 is used.  This document considers IPv6 for cellular hosts that
>   attach to the General Packet Radio Service (GPRS), Universal Mobile
>   Telecommunications System (UMTS), or Evolved Packet System (EPS)
>   networks (Hereafter collectively referred to as 3GPP networks).  =
This
>   document also lists out specific IPv6 functionality that needs to be
>   implemented in addition what is already prescribed in the IPv6 Node
>   Requirements document.  It also discusses some issues relating to =
the
>   use of these components when operating in these networks.  This
>   document obsoletes RFC 3316.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20


From fred@cisco.com  Mon May  6 11:27:46 2013
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From: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>
To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Regarding draft-ietf-v6ops-64share WGLC
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The working group last call for this draft-ietf-v6ops-64share announced las=
t week continues for another week. Please feel free to comment on it.




From john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com  Tue May  7 15:04:15 2013
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From: "Brzozowski, John" <John_Brzozowski@Cable.Comcast.com>
To: v6ops <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: Comcast Launches IPv6 for Business Customers
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FYI for folks that are interested, apologies if you received this mail mult=
iple times:

http://corporate.comcast.com/comcast-voices/comcast-launches-ipv6-for-busin=
ess-customers

John
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
John Jason Brzozowski
Comcast Cable
e) mailto:john_brzozowski@cable.comcast.com
w) http://www.comcast6.net<http://www.comcast6.net/>
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D





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<div>
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<div style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; ">FYI for =
folks that are interested, apologies if you received this mail&nbsp;multipl=
e times:</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; "><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; "><a href=
=3D"http://corporate.comcast.com/comcast-voices/comcast-launches-ipv6-for-b=
usiness-customers
">http://corporate.comcast.com/comcast-voices/comcast-launches-ipv6-for-bus=
iness-customers</a></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; "><br>
</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; ">John</di=
v>
<div style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; ">=3D=3D=
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on Brzozowski</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; ">Comcast =
Cable</div>
<div style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; ">e)&nbsp;=
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@cable.comcast.com</a></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; ">w)&nbsp;=
<a href=3D"http://www.comcast6.net/">http://www.comcast6.net</a></div>
<div style=3D"font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; ">=3D=3D=
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-64share WGLC
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Hi,=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message -----=0A> From: Fred Baker (fred) <fred@=
cisco.com>=0A> To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>=0A> Cc: =0A> Sent: Mon=
day, 29 April 2013 6:00 AM=0A> Subject: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-64share WG=
LC=0A> =0A>T his is to initiate a two week working group last call of =0A> =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-64share. Please read it now. If=
 you =0A> find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc)=
, comment to =0A> the authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagree=
ing with a statement or =0A> finding additional issues that need to be addr=
essed, please post your comments =0A> to the list.=0A> =0A> We are looking =
specifically for comments on the importance of the document as =0A> well as=
 its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be of =0A> op=
erational utility, that is also an important comment to make.=0A> =0A> =0A=
=0A=0AFirstly, I I think this document is of value, as it facilitates IPv6=
=0Aconnectivity to hosts tethered to 3GPP devices which don't support DHCPv=
6-PD.=0A=0AI think there are some areas where it needs to be improved.=0A=
=0AGeneral=0A~~~~~~=0A=0AIt isn't clear to me whether the document is descr=
ibing what has been=0Aimplemented, what could be implemented or both.=0A=0A=
The reason I wonder is specifically because of the first scenario,=0A"No Gl=
obal Address on the UE". Assuming that the UE is a smart phone,=0AI'd think=
 that the user would expect that if they enable tethering,=0Athey could con=
tinue to use the phone itself to access the Internet, run=0Avarious Interne=
t applications etc. For example, they may be lending or=0Asharing their Int=
ernet access to another person using a laptop, rather=0Athan switching from=
 using their smartphone to their tablet or laptop. In=0Aother words, a mult=
iuser scenario. I think the UE losing Internet access=0Awhile providing it =
to tethered devices is quite a significant and probably=0Aunacceptable limi=
tation, and would most likely confuse most UE end-users=0Awhen it occurs (r=
esulting in many support phone calls to their carrier's=0Ahelpdesk, or wors=
e, technical relatives or friends).=0A=0AIf the document is describing what=
 has been implemented, then I think it is=0Areasonable to keep this method =
in there, however I think the significant=0Adrawbacks should be described, =
and this method being recommended against=0Abeing implemented. On the other=
 hand, if the document is only describing=0Awhat could be implemented, rath=
er than what has been, then I think this=0Ascenario should either be droppe=
d or strongly recommended against, as the=0AI think the drawbacks are too s=
ignificant.=0A=0A1. Introduction=0A~~~~~~~~~~~~=0A=0Ao =A0UE definition - I=
 think it would be useful to define what User Equipment=0Ais, because I thi=
nk the significance of some of the drawbacks of the=0Adifferent methods may=
 be influenced by what type of device the UE is. For=0Aexample, for a 3G Wi=
fi hotspot device, the device's own loss of Internet=0Aaccess in scenario 1=
 might be less significant than if the UE is a smart=0Aphone (although, if =
the 3G Wifi hotspot device is acting as a DNS cache,=0Alocal NTP server or =
similar, then the significance is probably the same)=0A=0Ao =A0Multiple glo=
bal prefixes - the text seems to suggest only one global=0AIPv6 prefix ever=
 be announced over the 3GPP radio interface. I don't=0Aknow if the 3GPP doc=
uments specify that, however I think we should always=0Afacilitate announce=
ments of multiple IPv6 prefixes, so that IPv6's address=0Aaging capability =
can be used to phase in a new IPv6 prefix and then phase=0Aout an old one o=
ver a reasonable time period e.g. a month.=0A=0Ao =A0A separated numbered l=
ist in the second paragraph would make these=0Apoints clearer=0A=0Ao =A0It =
isn't clear whether the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph is=0Aapplying to=
 all of the numbered list points, or just the last one.=0A=0A=0A3.0 General=
 Behavior for All Scenarios=0A~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=0A=0Ao =A0Regard=
ing the gateway not consuming any addresses within the /64, and=0Aforwardin=
g all traffic to /64 destinations towards the UE, when the UE is=0Aacting a=
s a host, I assume it would drop traffic towards non-UE assigned=0Aaddresse=
s, as per normal IPv6 host behaviour. However, when the UE becomes=0Aa rout=
er in these scenarios, is a sink/null route for the /64 created,=0Aso that =
the UE doesn't forward traffic towards non-known destinations back=0Atoward=
s the gateway via its default route? Neighbor discovery on the LAN=0Ainterf=
ace should give the UE knowledge of the hosts/nodes using addresses=0Awithi=
n the /64, so that it only drops traffic for destinations within the=0A/64 =
that don't exist.=0A=0A3.1 Scenario 1: No Global Address on the UE=0A~~~~~~=
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=0A=0AIn addition to my thoughts in General abov=
e.=0A=0Ao =A0In addition to the PMTUD issue, I think it would also be worth=
 mentioning=0Athat if the UE is providing other services e.g. DNS caching t=
hat require=0Aglobal connectivity, they'll also be impacted.=0A=0Ao =A0"The=
 3GPP interface and LAN interface only maintain link-local addresses=0Awhil=
e the UE uses RA to announce the /64 to the LAN." - It may be possible=0Afo=
r the UE to listen to it's own RAs on it's LAN interface, and therefore=0Au=
se SLAAC to configure a LAN global address. For example, Linux provides=0At=
his option (sysctl accept_ra =3D 2).=0A=0A3.2 Scenario 2: Global Address On=
ly Assigned to LAN=0A~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=0A=0Ao =A0"Th=
e movement of the IPv6 prefix from the 3GPP radio interface to the=0ALAN in=
terface may result in long-lived data connections being terminated=0Aduring=
 the transition from a host-only mode to router-and-host mode."=0A=0AIt may=
 be worth expanding on this a bit further. In theory, I think an=0Aapplicat=
ion should be able to survive this as long as it isn't bound to a=0Aspecifi=
c interface, or is relying on the sin6_scope_id value (which usually=0Aconv=
eys ifindex, as per RFC4007) not changing. The host's/router's route=0Atabl=
e decides the exit interface for packets, rather than always using the=0Ain=
terface the selected source address was assigned to. How the OS handles=0Am=
oving the address may be disruptive, although I'd think it might be fairly=
=0Astraight forward for the OS to be modified to prevent that disruption.=
=0A=0AIt isn't completely clear to me as to whether IPv6 uses the weak host=
=0Amodel (packets destined to one of the host's addresses can enter the=0Ah=
ost via any interface), or the strong host model (packets must enter=0Athe =
host on the interface assigned the address), or whether it is an=0Aimplemen=
tation decision. RFC4291 (IPv6 Addr. Arch) implies strong, by=0Asaying that=
 addresses are assigned to interfaces, while RFC6724 (Src. &=0ADst. Selecti=
on) implies weak, by only recommending rather than requiring=0Athat the sou=
rce address is the one assigned to the interface that will=0Abe used to rea=
ch the destination. If it is strong, as the UE is becoming=0Aa router, I th=
ink a router by nature supports the weak host model, as it=0Awill logically=
 forward packets from the non-destination address assigned=0Aingress interf=
ace to its other interface assigned the address, and then=0Ahandle it local=
ly at the higher layers.=0A=0Ao "The UE checks to make sure the 3GPP interf=
ace is active and has an IPv6=0Aaddress." I suggest changing it to "The UE =
checks to make sure the 3GPP=0Ainterface is active and has at least one glo=
bal IPv6 address."=0A=0A3.3 Scenario 3: A Single Global Address=A0Assigned =
to 3GPP Radio and LAN Interface=0A~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=0A=0Ao =A0"This method also creates complications for =
ensuring uniqueness for=0APrivacy Extensions [RFC4941]. =A0Privacy Extensio=
ns should be disabled on=0Athe 3GPP radio interface while this method is en=
abled." What particular=0Acomplications? I can see there would be some if t=
he privacy addresses were=0Acreated independently for the two interfaces, h=
owever if a single privacy=0Aaddress was generated, and then assigned to bo=
th interfaces, would that=0Aeliminate the complications? Are there others t=
hat I'm not seeing?=0A=0A=0Ao =A0"2. The UE checks to make sure the 3GPP in=
terfaces is active and has=0Aan IPv6 address." - delete 's' on interfaces.=
=0A=0A=0AHTH,=0AMark.

From fred@cisco.com  Thu May  9 07:03:26 2013
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From: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-64share WGLC
Thread-Index: AQHOTL31ZPXqth3JY0qQqLkL+LkALg==
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 14:03:19 +0000
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-64share WGLC
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Thanks for a very detailed review.

On May 9, 2013, at 4:04 AM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>
 wrote:

> Hi,
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: Fred Baker (fred) <fred@cisco.com>
>> To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
>> Cc:=20
>> Sent: Monday, 29 April 2013 6:00 AM
>> Subject: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-64share WGLC
>>=20
>> T his is to initiate a two week working group last call of=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-64share. Please read it now.=
 If you=20
>> find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comme=
nt to=20
>> the authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a stat=
ement or=20
>> finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your co=
mments=20
>> to the list.
>>=20
>> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the docume=
nt as=20
>> well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be =
of=20
>> operational utility, that is also an important comment to make.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
> Firstly, I I think this document is of value, as it facilitates IPv6
> connectivity to hosts tethered to 3GPP devices which don't support DHCPv6=
-PD.
>=20
> I think there are some areas where it needs to be improved.
>=20
> General
> ~~~~~~
>=20
> It isn't clear to me whether the document is describing what has been
> implemented, what could be implemented or both.
>=20
> The reason I wonder is specifically because of the first scenario,
> "No Global Address on the UE". Assuming that the UE is a smart phone,
> I'd think that the user would expect that if they enable tethering,
> they could continue to use the phone itself to access the Internet, run
> various Internet applications etc. For example, they may be lending or
> sharing their Internet access to another person using a laptop, rather
> than switching from using their smartphone to their tablet or laptop. In
> other words, a multiuser scenario. I think the UE losing Internet access
> while providing it to tethered devices is quite a significant and probabl=
y
> unacceptable limitation, and would most likely confuse most UE end-users
> when it occurs (resulting in many support phone calls to their carrier's
> helpdesk, or worse, technical relatives or friends).
>=20
> If the document is describing what has been implemented, then I think it =
is
> reasonable to keep this method in there, however I think the significant
> drawbacks should be described, and this method being recommended against
> being implemented. On the other hand, if the document is only describing
> what could be implemented, rather than what has been, then I think this
> scenario should either be dropped or strongly recommended against, as the
> I think the drawbacks are too significant.
>=20
> 1. Introduction
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
> o  UE definition - I think it would be useful to define what User Equipme=
nt
> is, because I think the significance of some of the drawbacks of the
> different methods may be influenced by what type of device the UE is. For
> example, for a 3G Wifi hotspot device, the device's own loss of Internet
> access in scenario 1 might be less significant than if the UE is a smart
> phone (although, if the 3G Wifi hotspot device is acting as a DNS cache,
> local NTP server or similar, then the significance is probably the same)
>=20
> o  Multiple global prefixes - the text seems to suggest only one global
> IPv6 prefix ever be announced over the 3GPP radio interface. I don't
> know if the 3GPP documents specify that, however I think we should always
> facilitate announcements of multiple IPv6 prefixes, so that IPv6's addres=
s
> aging capability can be used to phase in a new IPv6 prefix and then phase
> out an old one over a reasonable time period e.g. a month.
>=20
> o  A separated numbered list in the second paragraph would make these
> points clearer
>=20
> o  It isn't clear whether the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph is
> applying to all of the numbered list points, or just the last one.
>=20
>=20
> 3.0 General Behavior for All Scenarios
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
> o  Regarding the gateway not consuming any addresses within the /64, and
> forwarding all traffic to /64 destinations towards the UE, when the UE is
> acting as a host, I assume it would drop traffic towards non-UE assigned
> addresses, as per normal IPv6 host behaviour. However, when the UE become=
s
> a router in these scenarios, is a sink/null route for the /64 created,
> so that the UE doesn't forward traffic towards non-known destinations bac=
k
> towards the gateway via its default route? Neighbor discovery on the LAN
> interface should give the UE knowledge of the hosts/nodes using addresses
> within the /64, so that it only drops traffic for destinations within the
> /64 that don't exist.
>=20
> 3.1 Scenario 1: No Global Address on the UE
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
> In addition to my thoughts in General above.
>=20
> o  In addition to the PMTUD issue, I think it would also be worth mention=
ing
> that if the UE is providing other services e.g. DNS caching that require
> global connectivity, they'll also be impacted.
>=20
> o  "The 3GPP interface and LAN interface only maintain link-local address=
es
> while the UE uses RA to announce the /64 to the LAN." - It may be possibl=
e
> for the UE to listen to it's own RAs on it's LAN interface, and therefore
> use SLAAC to configure a LAN global address. For example, Linux provides
> this option (sysctl accept_ra =3D 2).
>=20
> 3.2 Scenario 2: Global Address Only Assigned to LAN
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
> o  "The movement of the IPv6 prefix from the 3GPP radio interface to the
> LAN interface may result in long-lived data connections being terminated
> during the transition from a host-only mode to router-and-host mode."
>=20
> It may be worth expanding on this a bit further. In theory, I think an
> application should be able to survive this as long as it isn't bound to a
> specific interface, or is relying on the sin6_scope_id value (which usual=
ly
> conveys ifindex, as per RFC4007) not changing. The host's/router's route
> table decides the exit interface for packets, rather than always using th=
e
> interface the selected source address was assigned to. How the OS handles
> moving the address may be disruptive, although I'd think it might be fair=
ly
> straight forward for the OS to be modified to prevent that disruption.
>=20
> It isn't completely clear to me as to whether IPv6 uses the weak host
> model (packets destined to one of the host's addresses can enter the
> host via any interface), or the strong host model (packets must enter
> the host on the interface assigned the address), or whether it is an
> implementation decision. RFC4291 (IPv6 Addr. Arch) implies strong, by
> saying that addresses are assigned to interfaces, while RFC6724 (Src. &
> Dst. Selection) implies weak, by only recommending rather than requiring
> that the source address is the one assigned to the interface that will
> be used to reach the destination. If it is strong, as the UE is becoming
> a router, I think a router by nature supports the weak host model, as it
> will logically forward packets from the non-destination address assigned
> ingress interface to its other interface assigned the address, and then
> handle it locally at the higher layers.
>=20
> o "The UE checks to make sure the 3GPP interface is active and has an IPv=
6
> address." I suggest changing it to "The UE checks to make sure the 3GPP
> interface is active and has at least one global IPv6 address."
>=20
> 3.3 Scenario 3: A Single Global Address Assigned to 3GPP Radio and LAN In=
terface
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
> o  "This method also creates complications for ensuring uniqueness for
> Privacy Extensions [RFC4941].  Privacy Extensions should be disabled on
> the 3GPP radio interface while this method is enabled." What particular
> complications? I can see there would be some if the privacy addresses wer=
e
> created independently for the two interfaces, however if a single privacy
> address was generated, and then assigned to both interfaces, would that
> eliminate the complications? Are there others that I'm not seeing?
>=20
>=20
> o  "2. The UE checks to make sure the 3GPP interfaces is active and has
> an IPv6 address." - delete 's' on interfaces.
>=20
>=20
> HTH,
> Mark.


From ales.vizdal@t-mobile.cz  Thu May  9 07:52:22 2013
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From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?V=EDzdal_Ale=B9?= <ales.vizdal@t-mobile.cz>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>, "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Date: Thu, 9 May 2013 16:52:14 +0200
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-64share WGLC
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References: <8C48B86A895913448548E6D15DA7553B8298F8@xmb-rcd-x09.cisco.com> <1368097479.77285.YahooMailNeo@web142501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-64share WGLC
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Hi,

Many thanks for your points.

> -----Original Message-----
> From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Mark
> Smith
> Sent: Thursday, May 09, 2013 1:05 PM
> To: Fred Baker (fred); v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-64share WGLC
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
>=20
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Fred Baker (fred) <fred@cisco.com>
> > To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
> > Cc:
> > Sent: Monday, 29 April 2013 6:00 AM
> > Subject: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-64share WGLC
> >
> >T his is to initiate a two week working group last call of
> >http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-64share. Please read it
> >now. If you  find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording
> >changes, etc), comment to  the authors; if you find greater issues,
> >such as disagreeing with a statement or  finding additional issues that
> >need to be addressed, please post your comments  to the list.
> >
> > We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the
> > document as well as its content. If you have read the document and
> > believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important comm=
ent to make.
> >
> >
>=20
>=20
> Firstly, I I think this document is of value, as it facilitates IPv6 conn=
ectivity to hosts
> tethered to 3GPP devices which don't support DHCPv6-PD.
>=20
> I think there are some areas where it needs to be improved.
>=20
> General
> ~~~~~~
>=20
> It isn't clear to me whether the document is describing what has been imp=
lemented,
> what could be implemented or both.
>=20
> The reason I wonder is specifically because of the first scenario, "No Gl=
obal Address on
> the UE". Assuming that the UE is a smart phone, I'd think that the user w=
ould expect
> that if they enable tethering, they could continue to use the phone itsel=
f to access the
> Internet, run various Internet applications etc. For example, they may be=
 lending or
> sharing their Internet access to another person using a laptop, rather th=
an switching
> from using their smartphone to their tablet or laptop. In other words, a =
multiuser
> scenario. I think the UE losing Internet access while providing it to tet=
hered devices is
> quite a significant and probably unacceptable limitation, and would most =
likely confuse
> most UE end-users when it occurs (resulting in many support phone calls t=
o their
> carrier's helpdesk, or worse, technical relatives or friends).
>=20
> If the document is describing what has been implemented, then I think it =
is reasonable
> to keep this method in there, however I think the significant drawbacks s=
hould be
> described, and this method being recommended against being implemented. O=
n the
> other hand, if the document is only describing what could be implemented,=
 rather than
> what has been, then I think this scenario should either be dropped or str=
ongly
> recommended against, as the I think the drawbacks are too significant.

The document is bit of both as some of the mentioned approaches have been i=
mplemented,
some are listed as an option.=20
=20
> 1. Introduction
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
> o =A0UE definition - I think it would be useful to define what User Equip=
ment is, because I
> think the significance of some of the drawbacks of the different methods =
may be
> influenced by what type of device the UE is. For example, for a 3G Wifi h=
otspot device,
> the device's own loss of Internet access in scenario 1 might be less sign=
ificant than if
> the UE is a smart phone (although, if the 3G Wifi hotspot device is actin=
g as a DNS
> cache, local NTP server or similar, then the significance is probably the=
 same)

UE is a 3GPP term, reference/explanation will be added.
=20
> o =A0Multiple global prefixes - the text seems to suggest only one global
> IPv6 prefix ever be announced over the 3GPP radio interface. I don't know=
 if the 3GPP
> documents specify that, however I think we should always facilitate annou=
ncements of
> multiple IPv6 prefixes, so that IPv6's address aging capability can be us=
ed to phase in a
> new IPv6 prefix and then phase out an old one over a reasonable time peri=
od e.g. a
> month.

The current 3GPP architecture is limited to support a single IPv6 prefix on=
ly. It explicitly
states that if the mobile networks announces multiple IPv6 prefix in the RA=
 only the first
one shall be used, the rest shall be ignored.
=20
> o =A0A separated numbered list in the second paragraph would make these p=
oints clearer

Ack.

> o =A0It isn't clear whether the last sentence of the 2nd paragraph is app=
lying to all of the
> numbered list points, or just the last one.

Once indented, it will be clear that it applies to the last point only.
=20
> 3.0 General Behavior for All Scenarios
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
> o =A0Regarding the gateway not consuming any addresses within the /64, an=
d forwarding
> all traffic to /64 destinations towards the UE, when the UE is acting as =
a host, I
> assume it would drop traffic towards non-UE assigned addresses, as per no=
rmal IPv6
> host behaviour.=20

As there is no link-layer addressing and the GW does not do NUD (it has bee=
n discussed
on the list before, there is no NUD-aware implementation known) it will be =
forwarding
all packets that belong to the /64 down to the UE.

> However, when the UE becomes a router in these scenarios, is a
> sink/null route for the /64 created, so that the UE doesn't forward traff=
ic towards non-
> known destinations back towards the gateway via its default route? Neighb=
or discovery
> on the LAN interface should give the UE knowledge of the hosts/nodes usin=
g addresses
> within the /64, so that it only drops traffic for destinations within the
> /64 that don't exist.

It will have ::/0 pointing towards the mobile network and /64 towards the L=
AN. Non-known
destinations shall be routed to LAN, if the host is not known on the LAN IC=
MP error
shall be returned back to the originator.
=20
> 3.1 Scenario 1: No Global Address on the UE
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
> In addition to my thoughts in General above.
>=20
> o =A0In addition to the PMTUD issue, I think it would also be worth menti=
oning that if the
> UE is providing other services e.g. DNS caching that require global conne=
ctivity, they'll
> also be impacted.

Fair point.=20

How about?

Lack of global scope connectivity will limit network services running on th=
e UE (e.g. DNS=20
caching that requires global connectivity) and prevent proper Path MTU Disc=
overy  [RFC1981]=20
to occur on the UE.
=20
> o =A0"The 3GPP interface and LAN interface only maintain link-local addre=
sses while the
> UE uses RA to announce the /64 to the LAN." - It may be possible for the =
UE to listen
> to it's own RAs on it's LAN interface, and therefore use SLAAC to configu=
re a LAN
> global address. For example, Linux provides this option (sysctl accept_ra=
 =3D 2).

OK, that's making Scenario 1 & 2 very similar.

> 3.2 Scenario 2: Global Address Only Assigned to LAN
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>=20
> o =A0"The movement of the IPv6 prefix from the 3GPP radio interface to th=
e LAN interface
> may result in long-lived data connections being terminated during the tra=
nsition from a
> host-only mode to router-and-host mode."
>=20
> It may be worth expanding on this a bit further. In theory, I think an ap=
plication should
> be able to survive this as long as it isn't bound to a specific interface=
, or is relying on
> the sin6_scope_id value (which usually conveys ifindex, as per RFC4007) n=
ot changing.
> The host's/router's route table decides the exit interface for packets, r=
ather than
> always using the interface the selected source address was assigned to. H=
ow the OS
> handles moving the address may be disruptive, although I'd think it might=
 be fairly
> straight forward for the OS to be modified to prevent that disruption.
>=20
> It isn't completely clear to me as to whether IPv6 uses the weak host mod=
el (packets
> destined to one of the host's addresses can enter the host via any interf=
ace), or the
> strong host model (packets must enter the host on the interface assigned =
the
> address), or whether it is an implementation decision. RFC4291 (IPv6 Addr=
. Arch)
> implies strong, by saying that addresses are assigned to interfaces, whil=
e RFC6724
> (Src. & Dst. Selection) implies weak, by only recommending rather than re=
quiring that
> the source address is the one assigned to the interface that will be used=
 to reach the
> destination. If it is strong, as the UE is becoming a router, I think a r=
outer by nature
> supports the weak host model, as it will logically forward packets from t=
he non-
> destination address assigned ingress interface to its other interface ass=
igned the
> address, and then handle it locally at the higher layers.

It looks like that Linux implements the weak host model as rp_filter has be=
en added later
as a userspace function. (https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3D699=
8)
=20
> o "The UE checks to make sure the 3GPP interface is active and has an IPv=
6 address."
> I suggest changing it to "The UE checks to make sure the 3GPP interface i=
s active and
> has at least one global IPv6 address."

If it requires clarification, it shall be changed for all 3 options.

> 3.3 Scenario 3: A Single Global Address=A0Assigned to 3GPP Radio and LAN =
Interface
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ~~~~~~~~
>=20
> o =A0"This method also creates complications for ensuring uniqueness for =
Privacy
> Extensions [RFC4941]. =A0Privacy Extensions should be disabled on the 3GP=
P radio
> interface while this method is enabled." What particular complications? I=
 can see there
> would be some if the privacy addresses were created independently for the=
 two
> interfaces, however if a single privacy address was generated, and then a=
ssigned to
> both interfaces, would that eliminate the complications? Are there others=
 that I'm not
> seeing?

Yes, this is the concern where the temporary addresses can be created on bo=
th interfaces
independently resulting in a potential address collision. (low risk, but ma=
y happen)

> o =A0"2. The UE checks to make sure the 3GPP interfaces is active and has=
 an IPv6
> address." - delete 's' on interfaces.
>=20
>=20
> HTH,
> Mark.

Cheers,
Ales

From swmike@swm.pp.se  Thu May  9 08:00:20 2013
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From: Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se>
To: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Regarding draft-ietf-v6ops-64share WGLC
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On Mon, 6 May 2013, Fred Baker (fred) wrote:

> The working group last call for this draft-ietf-v6ops-64share announced 
> last week continues for another week. Please feel free to comment on it.

I have in the past week tried two different devices that seem to perform 
functionality that is specified in this document. One phone and one "wifi 
router", both with 4G (LTE) WAN connectivity. When the phone was 
configured to be a mobile hotspot, it shared it's 3GPP interface /64 with 
the clients connected through it's wifi AP functionality and successfully 
forwarded packets. I have heard several more devices implementing the same 
functionality.

I therefore support this document and think it's relevant and important.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

From fred@cisco.com  Sun May 12 13:00:22 2013
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From: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>
To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: WGLC status
Thread-Index: AQHOT0tS0BB5YtwTY0yIFSYVQRMB2w==
Date: Sun, 12 May 2013 20:00:15 +0000
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We have there documents in active discussion right now: draft-ietf-v6ops-64=
share, draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile, and draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316=
bis.=20

We are just completing a WGLC on draft-ietf-v6ops-64share, giving me the vi=
ew that it has support but needs to be updated against comments. I'll look =
for an updated draft in the coming weeks, and re-run the WGLC (perhaps just=
 a week) in June.

I will run WGLCs on the other two in the coming four weeks.

With any luck, we will have this off our collective plate by the end of Jun=
e, opening room for new work in July.



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From: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>
To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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This is to initiate a two week working group last call of http://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis. Please read it now. If you find nits=
 (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the au=
thors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or =
finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your comme=
nts to the list.

We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the document =
as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be =
of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make

draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis idnits




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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>
To: =?utf-8?B?VsOtemRhbCBBbGXFoQ==?= <ales.vizdal@t-mobile.cz>, "Fred Baker \(fred\)" <fred@cisco.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-64share WGLC
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Hi=C2=A0=C2=A0V=C3=ADzdal,=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message -----=0A> From: V=
=C3=ADzdal Ale=C5=A1 <ales.vizdal@t-mobile.cz>=0A> To: Mark Smith <markzzzs=
mith@yahoo.com.au>; Fred Baker (fred) <fred@cisco.com>; "v6ops@ietf.org" <v=
6ops@ietf.org>=0A> Cc: =0A> Sent: Friday, 10 May 2013 12:52 AM=0A> Subject:=
 RE: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-64share WGLC=0A>=C2=A0=0A=0A<snip>=0A=0A> rat=
her than=0A>>  what has been, then I think this scenario should either be d=
ropped or =0A> strongly=0A>>  recommended against, as the I think the drawb=
acks are too significant.=0A> =0A> The document is bit of both as some of t=
he mentioned approaches have been =0A> implemented,=0A> some are listed as =
an option. =0A>=C2=A0=0A=0AI think making that clearer and more explicit in=
 each case would be very useful.=0A=0A>>  1. Introduction=0A>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~=
~=0A>>=C2=A0=0A=C2=A0 =0A<snip>=0A=0A>>  3.0 General Behavior for All Scena=
rios=0A>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=0A>> =0A>>  o =C2=A0Regarding the g=
ateway not consuming any addresses within the /64, and =0A> forwarding=0A>>=
  all traffic to /64 destinations towards the UE, when the UE is acting as =
a =0A> host, I=0A>>  assume it would drop traffic towards non-UE assigned a=
ddresses, as per =0A> normal IPv6=0A>>  host behaviour. =0A> =0A> As there =
is no link-layer addressing and the GW does not do NUD (it has been =0A> di=
scussed=0A> on the list before, there is no NUD-aware implementation known)=
 it will be =0A> forwarding=0A> all packets that belong to the /64 down to =
the UE.=0A>=C2=A0=0A=0Aok=0A=0A>>  However, when the UE becomes a router in=
 these scenarios, is a=0A>>  sink/null route for the /64 created, so that t=
he UE doesn't forward =0A> traffic towards non-=0A>>  known destinations ba=
ck towards the gateway via its default route? Neighbor =0A> discovery=0A>> =
 on the LAN interface should give the UE knowledge of the hosts/nodes using=
 =0A> addresses=0A>>  within the /64, so that it only drops traffic for des=
tinations within the=0A>>  /64 that don't exist.=0A> =0A> It will have ::/0=
 pointing towards the mobile network and /64 towards the LAN. =0A> Non-know=
n=0A> destinations shall be routed to LAN, if the host is not known on the =
LAN ICMP =0A> error=0A> shall be returned back to the originator.=0A>=C2=A0=
=0A=0AFor scenario 1, as the UE has no global addresses, I think it would b=
e useful to make it clearer that a /64 'connected' route, pointing out the =
LAN interface needs to be configured when the UE goes from being a host to =
a router, and in contrast, it may be useful to mention that in the other sc=
enarios, either static configuration of the global address on the LAN inter=
face, or SLAAC configuration of an address via listening to it's own RA (wi=
th the On-Link bit switched on in the PIO), inherently create this /64 rout=
e.=0A=C2=A0=0A=0A>>  3.1 Scenario 1: No Global Address on the UE=0A>>  ~~~~=
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=0A>> =0A>>  In addition to my thoughts in Gen=
eral above.=0A>> =0A>>  o =C2=A0In addition to the PMTUD issue, I think it =
would also be worth =0A> mentioning that if the=0A>>  UE is providing other=
 services e.g. DNS caching that require global =0A> connectivity, they'll=
=0A>>  also be impacted.=0A> =0A> Fair point. =0A> =0A> How about?=0A> =0A>=
 Lack of global scope connectivity will limit network services running on t=
he UE =0A> (e.g. DNS =0A> caching that requires global connectivity) and pr=
event proper Path MTU =0A> Discovery=C2=A0 [RFC1981] =0A> to occur on the U=
E.=0A>=C2=A0=0A=0AThat would be fine.=0A=0A>>  o =C2=A0"The 3GPP interface =
and LAN interface only maintain link-local =0A> addresses while the=0A>>  U=
E uses RA to announce the /64 to the LAN." - It may be possible for =0A> th=
e UE to listen=0A>>  to it's own RAs on it's LAN interface, and therefore u=
se SLAAC to =0A> configure a LAN=0A>>  global address. For example, Linux p=
rovides this option (sysctl accept_ra =3D =0A> 2).=0A> =0A> OK, that's maki=
ng Scenario 1 & 2 very similar.=0A> =0A>>  3.2 Scenario 2: Global Address O=
nly Assigned to LAN=0A>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=0A=0A>> =
<snip>=0A=0A>>  It isn't completely clear to me as to whether IPv6 uses the=
 weak host =0A> model (packets=0A>>  destined to one of the host's addresse=
s can enter the host via any =0A> interface), or the=0A>>  strong host mode=
l (packets must enter the host on the interface assigned =0A> the=0A>>  add=
ress), or whether it is an implementation decision. RFC4291 (IPv6 Addr. =0A=
> Arch)=0A>>  implies strong, by saying that addresses are assigned to inte=
rfaces, while =0A> RFC6724=0A>>  (Src. & Dst. Selection) implies weak, by o=
nly recommending rather than =0A> requiring that=0A>>  the source address i=
s the one assigned to the interface that will be used =0A> to reach the=0A>=
>  destination. If it is strong, as the UE is becoming a router, I think a =
=0A> router by nature=0A>>  supports the weak host model, as it will logica=
lly forward packets from the =0A> non-=0A>>  destination address assigned i=
ngress interface to its other interface =0A> assigned the=0A>>  address, an=
d then handle it locally at the higher layers.=0A> =0A> It looks like that =
Linux implements the weak host model as rp_filter has been =0A> added later=
=0A> as a userspace function. (https://bugzilla.kernel.org/show_bug.cgi?id=
=3D6998)=0A>=C2=A0=0A=0AThat's useful to know. It won't be performed by the=
 kernel unless the rpfilter option has been enabled in the ip6tables firewa=
ll.=0A=0A>>  o "The UE checks to make sure the 3GPP interface is active and=
 has an =0A> IPv6 address."=0A>>  I suggest changing it to "The UE checks t=
o make sure the 3GPP =0A> interface is active and=0A>>  has at least one gl=
obal IPv6 address."=0A> =0A> If it requires clarification, it shall be chan=
ged for all 3 options.=0A> =0A>>  3.3 Scenario 3: A Single Global Address=
=C2=A0Assigned to 3GPP Radio and LAN =0A> Interface=0A>>  ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~=0A>>  ~~~~~~~~=0A>> =0A>>  o =C2=A0"Th=
is method also creates complications for ensuring uniqueness for =0A> Priva=
cy=0A>>  Extensions [RFC4941]. =C2=A0Privacy Extensions should be disabled =
on the 3GPP =0A> radio=0A>>  interface while this method is enabled." What =
particular =0A> complications? I can see there=0A>>  would be some if the p=
rivacy addresses were created independently for the =0A> two=0A>>  interfac=
es, however if a single privacy address was generated, and then =0A> assign=
ed to=0A>>  both interfaces, would that eliminate the complications? Are th=
ere others =0A> that I'm not=0A>>  seeing?=0A> =0A> Yes, this is the concer=
n where the temporary addresses can be created on both =0A> interfaces=0A> =
independently resulting in a potential address collision. (low risk, but ma=
y =0A> happen)=0A>=C2=A0=0A=0Aok, in that case I think it would be useful t=
o provide some text saying that if privacy addresses are enabled, the same =
address should be used on both interfaces, and their preferred and valid li=
fetimes are to decrement in parallel, such that they expire at the exact sa=
me moment.=0A=0ARegards,=0AMark.

From v6ops@globis.net  Mon May 13 15:01:08 2013
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From: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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I have read this document. I cant say that I support it.

IMHO it's too time specific and too version specific, without proving
added value and general guidance.

On the one hand there are requirements to implement a kludge to cope
with historical limitations in mobile networks and the fact the gateway
could only handle a single prefix route (RFC6603), whereas every other
network I know of easily handles numbering of the link "to the site"
without this.

On the other hand there isn't a requirement for something really basic
in the IPv6 vision, like BCP 157, so that a device can always be
provided with enough addresses/prefixes to properly number all of its
interfaces using SLAAC without resorting to workarounds like
draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-04.

I therefore question what this document adds above and beyond reading
the detailed 3gpp version releases/ specs, and why the IETF should
publish this document at all.

regards,
RayH

Fred Baker (fred) wrote:
> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis. Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your comments to the list.
>
> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the document as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make
>
> draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis idnits
>
>
>
>

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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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Ray,

Thanks for putting effort to read the document. Some initial comments =
inline.

On May 14, 2013, at 1:00 AM, Ray Hunter wrote:

> I have read this document. I cant say that I support it.
>=20
> IMHO it's too time specific and too version specific, without proving
> added value and general guidance.

Reason being quite simple. When describing what a 3GPP UE can do, we =
cannot
really go beyond what has been specified so far. We can point out some
stuff that would make sense but not really anything beyond that. And we
have tried to be pedantic on that.

I somewhat disagree about the lack general guidance. Experience has =
shown
that it usually takes real effort explaining some of the weird details =
of
the 3GPP link and how corners have been cut there. Take the NDP details
as an example.

> On the one hand there are requirements to implement a kludge to cope
> with historical limitations in mobile networks and the fact the =
gateway
> could only handle a single prefix route (RFC6603), whereas every other
> network I know of easily handles numbering of the link "to the site"
> without this.
>=20
> On the other hand there isn't a requirement for something really basic
> in the IPv6 vision, like BCP 157, so that a device can always be
> provided with enough addresses/prefixes to properly number all of its
> interfaces using SLAAC without resorting to workarounds like
> draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-04.

Something we have to live with at the moment. RFC3314 tried to recommend
otherwise but what was recommend did not materialize. Even if I really
wanted to recommend support for multiple prefixes on a 3GPP link, this
document is not a recommendation document but what has to be there for
an IPv6 enabled UE.

> I therefore question what this document adds above and beyond reading
> the detailed 3gpp version releases/ specs, and why the IETF should
> publish this document at all.

The original RFC3316 still gets referenced and that somewhat needed a
facelift. Mostly because when RFC3316 came out we did not even have
the node requirements document, and a lot of stuff that really belongs
to the node requirements document is duplicated (and now outdated) in
RFC3316.

- Jouni


>=20
> regards,
> RayH
>=20
> Fred Baker (fred) wrote:
>> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis. Please read it =
now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, =
etc), comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such as =
disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that need to =
be addressed, please post your comments to the list.
>>=20
>> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the =
document as well as its content. If you have read the document and =
believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important =
comment to make
>>=20
>> draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis idnits
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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To: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org Operations" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 01:14:24 +0200
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Hi Jouni,

Thanks for the update. Please find my review attached.

Cheers,
Ales

PS. Not being a native speaker means that my language corrections may be wr=
ong :-)

> -----Original Message-----
> From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Jouni
> Korhonen
> Sent: Monday, May 06, 2013 10:16 AM
> To: v6ops@ietf.org Operations
> Subject: [v6ops] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc33=
16bis-02.txt
>=20
>=20
> Folks,
>=20
> We have updated the RFC 3316bis based on the discussion/comments in the l=
ast IETF.
> The I-D is getting to "about ready" state now.
>=20
> - Jouni
>=20
> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org
> > Subject: New Version Notification for
> > draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-02.txt
> > Date: May 6, 2013 11:13:41 AM GMT+03:00
> > To: Teemu Savolainen <teemu.savolainen@nokia.com>, Jari Arkko
> > <jari.arkko@piuha.net>, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>,
> > Suresh Krishnan <suresh.krishnan@ericsson.com>
> >
> >
> > A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-02.txt
> > has been successfully submitted by Jouni Korhonen and posted to the
> > IETF repository.
> >
> > Filename:	 draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis
> > Revision:	 02
> > Title:		 IPv6 for 3GPP Cellular Hosts
> > Creation date:	 2013-05-06
> > Group:		 v6ops
> > Number of pages: 19
> > URL:             http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-r=
fc3316bis-02.txt
> > Status:          http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc33=
16bis
> > Htmlized:        http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis=
-02
> > Diff:            http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-rf=
c3316bis-02
> >
> > Abstract:
> >   As the deployment of third and fourth generation cellular networks
> >   progresses, a large number of cellular hosts are being connected to
> >   the Internet.  Standardization organizations are making Internet
> >   Protocol version 6 (IPv6) mandatory in their specifications.
> >   However, the concept of IPv6 covers many aspects and numerous
> >   specifications.  In addition, the characteristics of cellular links
> >   in terms of bandwidth, cost and delay put special requirements on how
> >   IPv6 is used.  This document considers IPv6 for cellular hosts that
> >   attach to the General Packet Radio Service (GPRS), Universal Mobile
> >   Telecommunications System (UMTS), or Evolved Packet System (EPS)
> >   networks (Hereafter collectively referred to as 3GPP networks).  This
> >   document also lists out specific IPv6 functionality that needs to be
> >   implemented in addition what is already prescribed in the IPv6 Node
> >   Requirements document.  It also discusses some issues relating to the
> >   use of these components when operating in these networks.  This
> >   document obsoletes RFC 3316.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > The IETF Secretariat
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

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From v6ops@globis.net  Mon May 13 23:55:27 2013
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From: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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> Jouni <mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> 14 May 2013 00:30
> Ray,
>
> Thanks for putting effort to read the document. Some initial comments inline.
>
> On May 14, 2013, at 1:00 AM, Ray Hunter wrote:
>
>> I have read this document. I cant say that I support it.
>>
>> IMHO it's too time specific and too version specific, without proving
>> added value and general guidance.
>
> Reason being quite simple. When describing what a 3GPP UE can do, we cannot
> really go beyond what has been specified so far.
>
Right. And that's my basic problem with the IETF producing such a document.
>  We can point out some
> stuff that would make sense but not really anything beyond that. And we
> have tried to be pedantic on that.
I'll hold you to that ;)
>
> I somewhat disagree about the lack general guidance. Experience has shown
> that it usually takes real effort explaining some of the weird details of
> the 3GPP link and how corners have been cut there. Take the NDP details
> as an example.

Right. But then I humbly suggest that the document just covers the
"weird details".

Forgive my apparent frustration. In my very simple mind, 3gpp "blew it
big time" at the architecture level.

Quote "If a cellular host has additional interfaces on which IP is used,
   (such as Ethernet, WLAN, Bluetooth, etc.) then there may be
   additional requirements for the device, beyond what is discussed in
   this document."

The starting point for 3gpp in the IETF should have been how to
transport packets over the basic link technology, and then looking at
how the ecosystem of end user devices an individual owned could
collectively connect to the Internet, rather than the end user device
being relegated to nothing more than a dedicated handset on the end of a
single radio link with no alternate paths.


Following comments from "my very simple mind," which might equate to how
some developers will read this document.
Please forgive me /indulge me, as I feel it will improve the quality of
the draft.

We're basically talking about a dedicated point to point link between a
piece of provider equipment (GGSN/PGW) and a piece of consumer equipment
(TE).



Quote draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis:
"The Router Advertisement contains a maximum
   of one prefix information option and the advertised prefix cannot
   ever be used for on-link determination (see [RFC6459], Section 5.2)."

Quote RFC4862:
Router Advertisements also contain zero or more Prefix Information
   options that contain information used by stateless address
   autoconfiguration to generate global addresses.

What breaks if an end device supports receiving more than one PIO in an RA?

Advising implementers of cellular hosts to box themselves into a corner
based on the current implementation of the network equipment would seem
to me to be a bad idea if it isn't absolutely necessary.




Section 2.6. "Consequently, sending MLD reports for link-local addresses
in a 3GPP environment may not always be necessary"

What does this tell me as a developer? How do I discover this?
Is it harmful to never send MLD? Is it harmful to always send MLD?
That I need to try once and see if sending MLD is necessary (to avoid
unnecessary 3gpp traffic)?



Section 2.7
What has RFC 4941 got to do with 3gpp link technology and corner cases?

6459 says "RFC 4941 or other similar types of mechanisms."
draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis says "Privacy Extensions for Stateless
Address Autoconfiguration [RFC4941] should be supported."

What breaks if other privacy mechanisms are used, so that
draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis has been sharpened to SHOULD support 4941?
Or none?

Quote "At the time this document has been written, there is no
experience on how long-lived cellular network address assignments (i.e.,
attachments to the network) are. "

Again, what is this draft telling me as a developer?


Section 2.9 Is this kludge forever?
What is fundamentally wrong in the long term with unnumbered links?
What is fundamentally wrong in the long term with the radio provider
using their own IPv6 space for the radio link, and delegating an entire
contiguous block to the user to allocate.

(which is what the majority of other IP networks do AFAIK).


Section 2,10

"The cellular host should implement the Default Router Preferences and
More-Specific Routes extension to extension to Router Advertisement
   messages [RFC4191]. These options me be useful for cellular hosts
that also have additional interfaces on which IPv6 is used."

Wasn't this specifically declared out of scope in Section 1.1? "If a
cellular host has additional interfaces on which IP is used, (such as
Ethernet, WLAN, Bluetooth, etc.) then there may be additional
requirements for the device, beyond what is discussed in this document."



>> On the one hand there are requirements to implement a kludge to cope
>> with historical limitations in mobile networks and the fact the gateway
>> could only handle a single prefix route (RFC6603), whereas every other
>> network I know of easily handles numbering of the link "to the site"
>> without this.
>>
>> On the other hand there isn't a requirement for something really basic
>> in the IPv6 vision, like BCP 157, so that a device can always be
>> provided with enough addresses/prefixes to properly number all of its
>> interfaces using SLAAC without resorting to workarounds like
>> draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-04.
>
> Something we have to live with at the moment. RFC3314 tried to recommend
> otherwise but what was recommend did not materialize. Even if I really
> wanted to recommend support for multiple prefixes on a 3GPP link, this
> document is not a recommendation document but what has to be there for
> an IPv6 enabled UE.
>
>> I therefore question what this document adds above and beyond reading
>> the detailed 3gpp version releases/ specs, and why the IETF should
>> publish this document at all.
>
> The original RFC3316 still gets referenced and that somewhat needed a
> facelift.

Quote draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis: "Future changes in 3GPP networks that
impact host implementations may result in updates to this document."

I don't see the fact that RFC3316 is still referenced as a reason to
repeat the same mistake of having a specific IETF document that needs to
then somehow synchronise with the work of another standards body that
operates completely outside the IETF's scope of influence.

Thanks for your patience,
RayH
>  Mostly because when RFC3316 came out we did not even have
> the node requirements document, and a lot of stuff that really belongs
> to the node requirements document is duplicated (and now outdated) in
> RFC3316.
>
> - Jouni
>
>
>> regards,
>> RayH
>>
>> Fred Baker (fred) wrote:
>>> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis. Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that need to be addressed, please post your comments to the list.
>>>
>>> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the document as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make
>>>
>>> draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis idnits
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>


From jouni.nospam@gmail.com  Wed May 15 00:33:33 2013
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Ales,

THank you for the review.. It might sound boring but I more or less =
agree with all your comments :)

Few specific discussion points you had in the review:

* "Would it make sense to mention that the cellular network may be =
sending RAs every 4 hours to save air resources as hinted in the 3GPP =
spec?"

I can mention the 29.061 suggested time. So implementations seem to use =
much longer RA intervals. I have seen intervals up to 18 hours.


* "It could be mentioned that the assigned IPv6 prefix is valid for the =
lifetime of a PDP context and cannot be changed without tearing down the =
cellular link/connection."

Hmm.. I though I had this mentioned. Maybe it was in some other text I =
wrote recently. Will add this note.


* Comment VA9:=20

Agree with the comment. Specifically with "MiFi" use cases the same =
prefix may be used for days or even longer. I'll reword this towards =
more "privacy friendly".

* Comment VA10:

The PD is discussed in more detail in the following section. I would not =
implement this comment as such.

* Comment VA11:

There is the other I-D that can discuss PCOs. I would not add those here =
:)

* Comment VA12:

Alas 3GPP specs are still silent about RFC6106. In that sense maybe =
changing should to may would suffice. Indeed the split-UE use case is =
where RFC6106 is useful. There is a lot of weird stuff in USB stick / =
MiFi front.. like the one your referred to. Some of those did not =
support SLAAC but only DHCPv6 ;) Obviously those do not really adhere to =
3GPP link model..

* Comment VA15:

IMEI.


- Jouni



On May 14, 2013, at 2:14 AM, V=EDzdal Ale=B9 <ales.vizdal@t-mobile.cz> =
wrote:

> <3316bis-review.pdf>


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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RAy,

On May 14, 2013, at 9:55 AM, Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net> wrote:

> Quote draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis:
> "The Router Advertisement contains a maximum
>   of one prefix information option and the advertised prefix cannot
>   ever be used for on-link determination (see [RFC6459], Section 5.2)."
> 
> Quote RFC4862:
> Router Advertisements also contain zero or more Prefix Information
>   options that contain information used by stateless address
>   autoconfiguration to generate global addresses.
> 
> What breaks if an end device supports receiving more than one PIO in an RA?

Probably nothing. There just are no gateways that would put more than one
PIO in an RA.

The language is there just because 3GPP specs are explicit on stating it 
as a restriction to SLAAC.

> Advising implementers of cellular hosts to box themselves into a corner
> based on the current implementation of the network equipment would seem
> to me to be a bad idea if it isn't absolutely necessary.

Well.. I do not disagree here :)

> Section 2.6. "Consequently, sending MLD reports for link-local addresses
> in a 3GPP environment may not always be necessary"
> 
> What does this tell me as a developer? How do I discover this?
> Is it harmful to never send MLD? Is it harmful to always send MLD?
> That I need to try once and see if sending MLD is necessary (to avoid
> unnecessary 3gpp traffic)?

Right. I could say "Consequently, sending MLD reports for link-local
addresses in a 3GPP environment is not necessary" That would be more
explicit?

> Section 2.7
> What has RFC 4941 got to do with 3gpp link technology and corner cases?
> 
> 6459 says "RFC 4941 or other similar types of mechanisms."
> draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis says "Privacy Extensions for Stateless
> Address Autoconfiguration [RFC4941] should be supported."
> 
> What breaks if other privacy mechanisms are used, so that
> draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis has been sharpened to SHOULD support 4941?
> Or none?

Right. I can reword this similar to RFC6459. 

> Section 2.9 Is this kludge forever?

Dunno.

> What is fundamentally wrong in the long term with unnumbered links?

Nothing. It is just not an option with 3GPP link model (and do not refer
here to 64share that shows what one do with a host implementation).

> What is fundamentally wrong in the long term with the radio provider
> using their own IPv6 space for the radio link, and delegating an entire
> contiguous block to the user to allocate.

Nothing. 

Just to point out that "we tried we failed". I am actually happy that
we even got DHCPv6 PD into specs instead of something more "ingenious".

> (which is what the majority of other IP networks do AFAIK).
> 
> 
> Section 2,10
> 
> "The cellular host should implement the Default Router Preferences and
> More-Specific Routes extension to extension to Router Advertisement
>   messages [RFC4191]. These options me be useful for cellular hosts
> that also have additional interfaces on which IPv6 is used."
> 
> Wasn't this specifically declared out of scope in Section 1.1? "If a
> cellular host has additional interfaces on which IP is used, (such as
> Ethernet, WLAN, Bluetooth, etc.) then there may be additional
> requirements for the device, beyond what is discussed in this document."

Right. So you want that removed?

- JOuni

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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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On May 15, 2013, at 00:59 , Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:

>=20
> RAy,
>=20
> On May 14, 2013, at 9:55 AM, Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net> wrote:
>=20
>> Quote draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis:
>> "The Router Advertisement contains a maximum
>>  of one prefix information option and the advertised prefix cannot
>>  ever be used for on-link determination (see [RFC6459], Section =
5.2)."
>>=20
>> Quote RFC4862:
>> Router Advertisements also contain zero or more Prefix Information
>>  options that contain information used by stateless address
>>  autoconfiguration to generate global addresses.
>>=20
>> What breaks if an end device supports receiving more than one PIO in =
an RA?
>=20
> Probably nothing. There just are no gateways that would put more than =
one
> PIO in an RA.
>=20
> The language is there just because 3GPP specs are explicit on stating =
it=20
> as a restriction to SLAAC.

It's kind of a dumb restriction IMHO. I don't think it is valuable to =
bring dumb
restrictions from 3GPP over to IETF unless it is necessary to avoid =
incompatibility.

>=20
>> Advising implementers of cellular hosts to box themselves into a =
corner
>> based on the current implementation of the network equipment would =
seem
>> to me to be a bad idea if it isn't absolutely necessary.
>=20
> Well.. I do not disagree here :)
>=20
+1

>> Section 2.6. "Consequently, sending MLD reports for link-local =
addresses
>> in a 3GPP environment may not always be necessary"
>>=20
>> What does this tell me as a developer? How do I discover this?
>> Is it harmful to never send MLD? Is it harmful to always send MLD?
>> That I need to try once and see if sending MLD is necessary (to avoid
>> unnecessary 3gpp traffic)?
>=20
> Right. I could say "Consequently, sending MLD reports for link-local
> addresses in a 3GPP environment is not necessary" That would be more
> explicit?

It would be more explicit. Would it be correct? If so, then it should be =
stated this way.

>> Section 2,10
>>=20
>> "The cellular host should implement the Default Router Preferences =
and
>> More-Specific Routes extension to extension to Router Advertisement
>>  messages [RFC4191]. These options me be useful for cellular hosts
>> that also have additional interfaces on which IPv6 is used."
>>=20
>> Wasn't this specifically declared out of scope in Section 1.1? "If a
>> cellular host has additional interfaces on which IP is used, (such as
>> Ethernet, WLAN, Bluetooth, etc.) then there may be additional
>> requirements for the device, beyond what is discussed in this =
document."
>=20
> Right. So you want that removed?

I don't support removal. If anything, I would suggest that more explicit =
information
about the various scenarios and their considerations is required. If not =
in this
document, then somewhere else that is referenced by this document.

Instead, I think an update to 1.1 mentioning that the treatment in 2.10 =
is not
complete rather than out of scope might be worth while.

Owen



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On May 15, 2013, at 8:13 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:

>>>=20
>>> What breaks if an end device supports receiving more than one PIO in =
an RA?
>>=20
>> Probably nothing. There just are no gateways that would put more than =
one
>> PIO in an RA.
>>=20
>> The language is there just because 3GPP specs are explicit on stating =
it=20
>> as a restriction to SLAAC.
>=20
> It's kind of a dumb restriction IMHO. I don't think it is valuable to =
bring dumb
> restrictions from 3GPP over to IETF unless it is necessary to avoid =
incompatibility.

I don't disagree about the "dumbness".. However, that is a restriction =
of the=20
link itself and buried pretty deep in the architecture. So, if the UE =
receives
an RA with multiple PIOs a) someone is goofing around or b) the network =
side
is broken. In that regard, I would still like to keep some text around =
this
peculiarity in the document. Would it be acceptable to state the fact =
and say
something along the lines that changing the UE stack implementation to =
meet
this link requirement is not really needed?

- Jouni



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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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> Jouni Korhonen <mailto:jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
> 16 May 2013 09:35
>
> I don't disagree about the "dumbness".. However, that is a restriction
> of the
> link itself and buried pretty deep in the architecture. So, if the UE
> receives
> an RA with multiple PIOs a) someone is goofing around or b) the
> network side
> is broken. In that regard, I would still like to keep some text around
> this
> peculiarity in the document. Would it be acceptable to state the fact
> and say
> something along the lines that changing the UE stack implementation to
> meet
> this link requirement is not really needed?
>
> - Jouni
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
IMHO This is symptomatic of the poor relationship between IETF standards
and 3gpp standards. 3gpp has limited something gratuitously that wasn't
limited in the referenced IETF standard. And it didn't need limiting at
standards level anyway: it's a network equipment end implementation
decision. It may be buried in the 3gpp architecture, but it's certainly
NOT buried deep in the IETF architecture.

So you could indeed mention that current versions of 3gpp network
equipment send exactly one PIO, but IMHO the IETF standard should be
kept as intended and unmodified: the TE should accept zero or more PIO
options. Unless it truly breaks something in 3gpp. That way you have
guaranteed interop with 3gpp, without limiting flexibility, or having to
implement unnecessary changes to existing generic running code on a
device that runs IPv6 and also happens to be a 3gpp TE. This is basic
Postel's law.

Futher I cross checked draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis against rfc6459 (IPv6
in 3rd Generation Partnership Project)
I'm certainly not an expert in this field (just another dumb reader),
but I do like to read consistent and maintainable standards.

AFAICS & IMVHO
Section 2.1 doesn't tell me anything that isn't obvious.
Section 2.2 is mostly covered in rfc6459 section 5.4. Only new material
is regarding [RFC4861], Section 7.3.1, but again that should be pretty
obvious to stack implementers, or could simply be a reference.
Section 2.3 is covered in rfc6459 section 5.2
Section 2.4 is covered in rfc6459 section 5.2
Section 2.5 looks like new information to me and provides actionable advice.
Section 2.6 looks like new information to me but does not tell me any
actionable advice.
Section 2.7 has nothing to do specifically with 3gpp links and could be
better handled elsewhere as a generic IPv6 privacy issue as AFAICS there
are no interop issues specific to 3gpp, and no need to quote 4941
specifically.
Section 2.8 is covered in rfc6459 section 5.2
Section 2.9 is covered in rfc6459 section 5.3
Section 2.10 looks like new information to me, but only contains partial
advice on handling multiple interfaces, so it could do with fleshing
out, or removal [I have no strong opinion either way]
Section 2.11looks like new information regarding handling the MTU option
and looks actionable
Section 3 looks redundant or incomplete.
Section 4 is redundant: an end node may still want to support mobile
IPv6 for e.g. wifi or other purposes: end nodes are not just TE's.

So in summary: I'm seeing an awful lot of unnecessary
duplication/overlap of text with an existing RFC that could be simply
referenced as a whole, and the areas that are providing new information
to me seem to require either more fleshing out, or additional actionable
advice.

I hope you can do something positive with this critique from a dumb reader.


Security considerations
quote "In some cases, users are billed according to the amount of data
they transfer to and from their host.  It is crucial for both the
network and the users that the airtime is used correctly and no extra
charges are applied to users due to misbehaving third parties."

<rant>This is not a technical issue, and the criticism is not directed
at the authors, but I find this outrageous. Why do end users have to pay
for control traffic that doesn't directly benefit them or provide them a
service they've requested? Users don't pay for call set up traffic on
the voice bearers until the call is actually established and answered.
Nor do they pay for maintaining time or other network management
information like establishing network credentials and cell hand off. So
why does the IETF have to put in place a load of technical kludges at
the IPv6 layer to cover something that is fundamentally a billing issue?
If the providers just didn't bill for traffic with a destination address
of the internal network control devices, there'd be no need for any of
this.</rant>

best regards,
RayH


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From: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>
To: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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On May 16, 2013, at 12:35 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> wrote=
:

> I don't disagree about the "dumbness".. However, that is a restriction of=
 the=20
> link itself and buried pretty deep in the architecture. So, if the UE rec=
eives
> an RA with multiple PIOs a) someone is goofing around or b) the network s=
ide
> is broken. In that regard, I would still like to keep some text around th=
is
> peculiarity in the document. Would it be acceptable to state the fact and=
 say
> something along the lines that changing the UE stack implementation to me=
et
> this link requirement is not really needed?

</chair>
>From my perspective, it sounds like a good idea. Making the UE accept multi=
ple prefixes even if they will not be sent is simply robust software design=
. Imagine that someone sent a n RA with two PIOs (pick your reason that mig=
ht happen - maybe it's a trial or something). Making a software change on t=
he UE that caused it to not understand the information element could cause =
one of several kinds of failure. I'd suggest that the document recommend th=
at the UE be robust to the potential event.=

From booloo@ucsc.edu  Thu May 16 16:25:00 2013
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Subject: [v6ops] OSX 10.8 failures with Cisco Anyconnect VPN client
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I've got a Macbook running 10.8.3.  It has a v6 GUA, and a public v4
address.  Works dandy.

Now I bring up a VPN tunnel with Cisco Anyconnect Secure Mobility
Client (v3.1).  The VPN is IPv4 only.  If I point Safari or Chrome at
www.google.com, I get back nothing.  A little poking shows that DNS
AAAA queries are being issued.  As near as I can tell, that shouldn't
be happening, since the tunnel is v4 only.

Whose bug is this likely to be?  It looks to me like a problem with
the resolver library looking at the physical interface, instead of the
tunnel interface, for determining how to query DNS.  I haven't opened
a ticket with Cisco yet, but plan to.

Insight appreciated,
mark

From marka@isc.org  Thu May 16 16:59:11 2013
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In message <CAMCLrkEzXBZdVfx=gUBb=4P=pEwAkE4_Q3wJ-kGNSn9p7QWT7g@mail.gmail.com>, Mark Boolootian writes:
> I've got a Macbook running 10.8.3.  It has a v6 GUA, and a public v4
> address.  Works dandy.
> 
> Now I bring up a VPN tunnel with Cisco Anyconnect Secure Mobility
> Client (v3.1).  The VPN is IPv4 only.  If I point Safari or Chrome at
> www.google.com, I get back nothing.  A little poking shows that DNS
> AAAA queries are being issued.  As near as I can tell, that shouldn't
> be happening, since the tunnel is v4 only.

And unless the VPN client has disabled IPv6 on all interfaces you
still have a v6 GUA and theoretically global connectivity.  If the
VPN server is reached over IPv6 this is a bad idea to do.

> Whose bug is this likely to be?  It looks to me like a problem with
> the resolver library looking at the physical interface, instead of the
> tunnel interface, for determining how to query DNS.  I haven't opened
> a ticket with Cisco yet, but plan to. 

It is the application's (browser) bug.  It should be failing over
fast.  Unfortunately Apple decided to be smart when simple is what
you need for happy eyeballs.

It may also be a VPN client bug if it adds more specific IPv6 routes
then black holes the traffic.  It a minimum it should be sending
ICMP unreachable if it add more specific IPv6 routes.

Mark

> Insight appreciated,
> mark
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

From jouni.nospam@gmail.com  Fri May 17 03:40:28 2013
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From: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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References: <8C48B86A895913448548E6D15DA7553B859B35@xmb-rcd-x09.cisco.com> <51916286.9070101@globis.net> <038302EE-DAE7-4722-B2A6-5F65F789F959@gmail.com> <5191DFC6.4050903@globis.net> <30285AC2-5365-4353-9465-5D42D5AFEA1F@gmail.com> <FB14A1A3-586C-488E-91C9-89241704255D@delong.com> <BF20A3F3-8B2B-4889-8D8C-A63B3945D7F5@gmail.com> <8C48B86A895913448548E6D15DA7553B8EA56B@xmb-rcd-x09.cisco.com>
To: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org Operations" <v6ops@ietf.org>
X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1503)
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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Btw.. The upcoming draft version -03 and its changes can be tracked=20
in Github: https://github.com/jounikor/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis

- Jouni


On May 16, 2013, at 10:08 PM, Fred Baker (fred) <fred@cisco.com> wrote:

>=20
> On May 16, 2013, at 12:35 AM, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> I don't disagree about the "dumbness".. However, that is a =
restriction of the=20
>> link itself and buried pretty deep in the architecture. So, if the UE =
receives
>> an RA with multiple PIOs a) someone is goofing around or b) the =
network side
>> is broken. In that regard, I would still like to keep some text =
around this
>> peculiarity in the document. Would it be acceptable to state the fact =
and say
>> something along the lines that changing the UE stack implementation =
to meet
>> this link requirement is not really needed?
>=20
> </chair>
> =46rom my perspective, it sounds like a good idea. Making the UE =
accept multiple prefixes even if they will not be sent is simply robust =
software design. Imagine that someone sent a n RA with two PIOs (pick =
your reason that might happen - maybe it's a trial or something). Making =
a software change on the UE that caused it to not understand the =
information element could cause one of several kinds of failure. I'd =
suggest that the document recommend that the UE be robust to the =
potential event.


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    We have IPv6 enabled by default in our network.  Our customers occasion=
ally run into problems which turn out to be specific to the use of IPv6.  T=
he most recent one is that we see TLS certificate errors when ssa.gov is ac=
cessed via IPv6 but not when accessed via IPv4.  The IPv6 connectivity is f=
ine.  The error is occurring at a higher level.  But, it still appears to t=
he customer as an IPv6 problem.  My question is...  Is there a database or =
wiki or something somewhere where issues like this are tracked?


John


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nk=3Dpurple><div class=3DWordSection1><p class=3DMsoNormal><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p=
></p><p class=3DMsoNormal>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; We have IPv6 enabled by defaul=
t in our network.&nbsp; Our customers occasionally run into problems which =
turn out to be specific to the use of IPv6.&nbsp; The most recent one is th=
at we see TLS certificate errors when ssa.gov is accessed via IPv6 but not =
when accessed via IPv4.&nbsp; The IPv6 connectivity is fine.&nbsp; The erro=
r is occurring at a higher level. &nbsp;But, it still appears to the custom=
er as an IPv6 problem.&nbsp; My question is&#8230;&nbsp; Is there a databas=
e or wiki or something somewhere where issues like this are tracked?<o:p></=
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From jeroen@massar.ch  Fri May 17 07:27:21 2013
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On 2013-05-17 16:18 , John Border wrote:
>  
> 
>     We have IPv6 enabled by default in our network.  Our customers
> occasionally run into problems which turn out to be specific to the use
> of IPv6.  The most recent one is that we see TLS certificate errors when
> ssa.gov is accessed via IPv6 but not when accessed via IPv4.

Seems that certificate has expired on 30 April 2013 w18 01:59:59
GMT+02:00. Serial = 59 76 C9 FE 3F 26 75 55 28 F6 34 EB 8D 5C 4F 0C

that is the certificate for https://www.socialsecurity.gov

>  The IPv6
> connectivity is fine.  The error is occurring at a higher level.

You mean the above problem, as that is an administrative issue, nothing
the IETF can resolve...

>  But,
> it still appears to the customer as an IPv6 problem.  My question is… 
> Is there a database or wiki or something somewhere where issues like
> this are tracked?

Outages mailinglist maybe might be related. Problems like these should
be tracked at the ISP/hoster/location that has them, it is not a
'global' issue or a technical issue with IPv6.

Greets,
 Jeroen


From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Fri May 17 09:11:07 2013
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Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Recommendations of Using Unique Local Addresses
	Author(s)       : Bing Liu
                          Sheng Jiang
                          Cameron Byrne
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations-00.txt
	Pages           : 11
	Date            : 2013-05-17

Abstract:
   This document provides guidance of how to use ULA. It analyzes ULA
   usage scenarios and recommends use cases where ULA address may be
   beneficially used.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations-00


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-05.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Extending an IPv6 /64 Prefix from a 3GPP Mobile Interfac=
e to a LAN
	Author(s)       : Cameron Byrne
                          Dan Drown
                          Ales Vizdal
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-05.txt
	Pages           : 8
	Date            : 2013-05-17

Abstract:
   This document describes three methods for extending an IPv6 /64
   prefix from a User Equipment 3GPP radio interface to a LAN.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-64share

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-64share-05


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Extending an IPv6 /64 Prefix from a 3GPP Mobile Interfac=
e to a LAN
	Author(s)       : Cameron Byrne
                          Dan Drown
                          Ales Vizdal
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-06.txt
	Pages           : 8
	Date            : 2013-05-17

Abstract:
   This document describes three methods for extending an IPv6 /64
   prefix from a User Equipment 3GPP radio interface to a LAN.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-64share

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-06

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-64share-06


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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Date: Fri, 17 May 2013 11:54:57 -0700
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Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : Extending an IPv6 /64 Prefix from a 3GPP Mobile Interfac=
e to a LAN
	Author(s)       : Cameron Byrne
                          Dan Drown
                          Ales Vizdal
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
	Pages           : 8
	Date            : 2013-05-17

Abstract:
   This document describes three methods for extending an IPv6 /64
   prefix from a User Equipment 3GPP radio interface to a LAN.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-64share

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From fred@cisco.com  Sat May 18 05:45:06 2013
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To: v6ops@ietf.org
Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
Subject: [v6ops] new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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A new draft has been posted, at http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations. Please take a look at it and comment.

From fred@cisco.com  Sun May 19 13:00:14 2013
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From: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>
To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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Subject: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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The working group last call for this draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis announced =
last week continues for another week. Please feel free to comment on it.



From leo.liubing@huawei.com  Sun May 19 20:54:28 2013
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From: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: A brief intro-//RE: [v6ops] new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Cc: "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Hi, Dear all

This new ietf-00 draft is based on http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liu-v6o=
ps-ula-usage-analysis-05
And the document title was changed according to the discussion and the chai=
r's advice.=20

During the last IETF meeting, we had a significant amount of discussion on =
this draft. And lots of comments were received in the meeting and mail disc=
ussion. Thanks for all your contributions.

However, we couldn't include all your suggestions in the new ietf-00 versio=
n. Since the adoption call was based on the old -05 I-D, and we still have =
much controversy on some aspects. So the ietf-00 only did some minor revisi=
ons and added a bit general consensus discussion (see section 4).

But I summarized several important topics that might be worth to be include=
d in the future:
1. add some pros/cons of each general use cases
2. add some operational considerations, might include, but not limited to t=
he following:
 2.1 ULA+IPv4 case, might reduce the user experience, as described in RFC52=
20, section 2.2.2=20
 2.2 ULA with a default route in host might be problematic, we need to deal=
 with the ULA preference properly
 2.3 ULA+NPTv6, need some specific considerations, since NPTv6 is a statele=
ss one-to-one mapping

Any comments to the new ietf-00 draft and the above potential revisions are=
 welcomed.

Many thanks!

B.R.
Bing=20



> -----Original Message-----
> From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of fred@cisco.com
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 8:45 PM
> To: v6ops@ietf.org
> Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: [v6ops] new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
>=20
>=20
> A new draft has been posted, at
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations.
> Please take a look at it and comment.
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

From lorenzo@google.com  Mon May 20 00:50:14 2013
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Mon, 20 May 2013 16:49:43 +0900
Message-ID: <CAKD1Yr1UPt6WcAeDbuZzP6Cf5EThy7pGWuu8i6WsJXMNoaCAgQ@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Bing,

a few comments:

I. "Notice that, as described in [RFC4864], in practice, applications may
treat ULAs like global-scope addresses, but address selection algorithms
may need to distinguish between ULAs and ordinary GUA Global-scope Unicast
Address) to ensure bidirectional communications."

1. "In practice, applications may treat ULAs like global-scope addresses"
is incorrect. ULAs are global-scope addresses, and we should state that
they are.
2.  "Address selection algorithms may need to distinguish between ULAs and
ordinary GUA (Global-scope Unicast Address) to ensure bidirectional
communications." Which algorithms? Do the ones in RFC 6724 do this? If so,
we should simply say that "applications distinguish between ULAs and GUA
(Global-scope Unicast Address) because ULAs do not have global
reachability". If not, then why not?
3. Why are you citing RFC4864? That is about firewalling, not uniqueness.

Suggested replacement text: "Note that, while ULAs are global-scope
addresses, they do not have global reachability. Therefore, address
selection algorithms distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast
Address) [RFC 6724]".


II. "ULA provides an internal address independence capability in IPv6 that
is similar to how [RFC1918] is commonly used." This is incorrect, because
commonly, a host's RFC1918 address is the only address on the host, and
 RFC1918 addresses communicate to the outside world via NAT. This is not
the case for ULA.


III. "what parameters have to be assembled or transmitted globally, by a
separate function, through an appropriate gateway/firewall, to the Internet
or to the telecom network." What does this mean? What is a "parameter" and
how does one "assemble" it, or "transmit it globally"? What could a
"separate function" be? What is the "telecom network"?


IV. "Alternatively, it could be regenerated regularly, if desired for some
reason." Can it? How regularly? If it is regenerated your ULA once a
second, how soon before collisions become likely? What about 100, 1000 or
1000000 times per second? You probably want to qualify "regularly".


V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which
doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP
or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only
support manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't
support automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has
enough resources to implement a UI for manual address assignment?


VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes
terrible operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; the
multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 protocol.
Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need to
adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4." This text does not
make sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a
feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope
addresses. For example, you can use only global addresses and have no
routing complexity.


VII. "Another issue is mentioned in [RFC5220], there is a possibility that
the longest matching rule will not be able to choose the correct address
between ULAs and global unicast addresses for correct intra-site and
extra-site communication." This text should be removed, since this problem
was addressed in RFC 6724,


VIII. "In [RFC6724] , it claimed that a site-specific policy entry can be
used to cause ULAs within a site to be preferred over global addresses.".
Why is this text here? Is it problem? Is it a solution?


IX. "the pref64 is a very good use of ULA.". Actually, it isn't. Per RFC
6724, using ULA for the pref64 means that devices with an IPv4 address
(e.g., using 464xlat) - will use IPv4 in preference to IPv6. Thus, there is
no point in deploying NAT64 with ULA, because it will only be used for
IPv6-only services (which basically don't exist). If the statement "Using
ULA for Pref64 is deployed" refers to T-Mobile USA (which it might, given
that T-Mobile USA is the affiliation of one of the authors), then that
statement is no longer true - AIUI, the ULA pref64 was renumbered to GUA
because of this problem. So I think this section should be removed.

Regards,
Lorenzo


On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com>wrote:

> Hi, Dear all
>
> This new ietf-00 draft is based on
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liu-v6ops-ula-usage-analysis-05
> And the document title was changed according to the discussion and the
> chair's advice.
>
> During the last IETF meeting, we had a significant amount of discussion on
> this draft. And lots of comments were received in the meeting and mail
> discussion. Thanks for all your contributions.
>
> However, we couldn't include all your suggestions in the new ietf-00
> version. Since the adoption call was based on the old -05 I-D, and we still
> have much controversy on some aspects. So the ietf-00 only did some minor
> revisions and added a bit general consensus discussion (see section 4).
>
> But I summarized several important topics that might be worth to be
> included in the future:
> 1. add some pros/cons of each general use cases
> 2. add some operational considerations, might include, but not limited to
> the following:
>  2.1 ULA+IPv4 case, might reduce the user experience, as described in
> RFC5220, section 2.2.2
>  2.2 ULA with a default route in host might be problematic, we need to
> deal with the ULA preference properly
>  2.3 ULA+NPTv6, need some specific considerations, since NPTv6 is a
> stateless one-to-one mapping
>
> Any comments to the new ietf-00 draft and the above potential revisions
> are welcomed.
>
> Many thanks!
>
> B.R.
> Bing
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> > Of fred@cisco.com
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 8:45 PM
> > To: v6ops@ietf.org
> > Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
> > Subject: [v6ops] new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
> >
> >
> > A new draft has been posted, at
> > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations.
> > Please take a look at it and comment.
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

--0015175cf92a98177004dd219482
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Bing,<div><br></div><div>a few comments:</div><div><br></d=
iv><div>I. &quot;Notice that, as described in [RFC4864], in practice, appli=
cations may treat ULAs like global-scope addresses, but address selection a=
lgorithms may need to distinguish between ULAs and ordinary GUA Global-scop=
e Unicast Address) to ensure bidirectional communications.&quot;</div>

<div><br></div><div style>1. &quot;In practice, applications may treat ULAs=
 like global-scope addresses&quot; is incorrect. ULAs are global-scope addr=
esses, and we should state that they are.=A0</div><div style>2. =A0&quot;Ad=
dress selection algorithms may need to distinguish between ULAs and ordinar=
y GUA (Global-scope Unicast Address) to ensure bidirectional communications=
.&quot; Which algorithms? Do the ones in RFC 6724 do this? If so, we should=
 simply say that &quot;applications distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Globa=
l-scope Unicast Address) because ULAs do not have global reachability&quot;=
. If not, then why not?</div>

<div style>3. Why are you citing RFC4864? That is about firewalling, not un=
iqueness.</div><div style><br></div><div style>Suggested replacement text: =
&quot;Note that, while ULAs are global-scope addresses, they do not have gl=
obal reachability. Therefore, address selection algorithms distinguish betw=
een ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast Address) [RFC 6724]&quot;.</div>

<div><br></div><div><br></div><div style>II. &quot;ULA provides an internal=
 address independence capability in IPv6 that is similar to how [RFC1918] i=
s commonly used.&quot; This is incorrect, because commonly, a host&#39;s RF=
C1918 address is the only address on the host, and =A0RFC1918 addresses com=
municate to the outside world via NAT. This is not the case for ULA.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style><br></div><div style>III. &quot;what parame=
ters have to be assembled or transmitted globally, by a separate function, =
through an appropriate gateway/firewall, to the Internet or to the telecom =
network.&quot; What does this mean? What is a &quot;parameter&quot; and how=
 does one &quot;assemble&quot; it, or &quot;transmit it globally&quot;? Wha=
t could a &quot;separate function&quot; be? What is the &quot;telecom netwo=
rk&quot;?</div>

<div><br></div><div><br></div><div style>IV. &quot;Alternatively, it could =
be regenerated regularly, if desired for some reason.&quot; Can it? How reg=
ularly? If it is regenerated your ULA once a second, how soon before collis=
ions become likely? What about 100, 1000 or 1000000 times per second? You p=
robably want to qualify &quot;regularly&quot;.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style><br></div><div style>V. &quot;the network n=
eeds ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which doesn&#39;t need much=
 code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND.&quot; I don=
&#39;t think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manua=
l address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn&#39;t support =
automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough resou=
rces to implement a UI for manual address assignment?</div>

<div><br></div><div><br></div><div style>VI. &quot;there always be some arg=
ument that in practice the ULA+PA makes terrible operational complexity. Bu=
t it is not a ULA-specific problem; the multiple- addresses-per-interface i=
s an important feature of IPv6 protocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 =
might be very common, and we need to adapt this new operational model than =
that in IPv4.&quot; This text does not make sense. Just because having mult=
iple global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6 doesn&#39;t mean that you =
must have multiple global-scope addresses. For example, you can use only gl=
obal addresses and have no routing complexity.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style><br></div><div style>VII. &quot;Another iss=
ue is mentioned in [RFC5220], there is a possibility that the longest match=
ing rule will not be able to choose the correct address between ULAs and gl=
obal unicast addresses for correct intra-site and extra-site communication.=
&quot; This text should be removed, since this problem was addressed in RFC=
 6724,</div>

<div style><br></div><div style><br></div><div style>VIII. &quot;In [RFC672=
4] , it claimed that a site-specific policy entry can be used to cause ULAs=
 within a site to be preferred over global addresses.&quot;. Why is this te=
xt here? Is it problem? Is it a solution?</div>

<div style><br></div><div style><br></div><div style>IX. &quot;the pref64 i=
s a very good use of ULA.&quot;. Actually, it isn&#39;t. Per RFC 6724, usin=
g ULA for the pref64 means that devices with an IPv4 address (e.g., using 4=
64xlat) - will use IPv4 in preference to IPv6. Thus, there is no point in d=
eploying NAT64 with ULA, because it will only be used for IPv6-only service=
s (which basically don&#39;t exist). If the statement &quot;Using ULA for P=
ref64 is deployed&quot; refers to T-Mobile USA (which it might, given that =
T-Mobile USA is the affiliation of one of the authors), then that statement=
 is no longer true - AIUI, the ULA pref64 was renumbered to GUA because of =
this problem. So I think this section should be removed.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>Regards,</div><div style>Lorenzo</div></div=
><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Mon, May =
20, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Liubing (Leo) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto=
:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt;</=
span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi, Dear all<br>
<br>
This new ietf-00 draft is based on <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-liu-v6ops-ula-usage-analysis-05" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.or=
g/html/draft-liu-v6ops-ula-usage-analysis-05</a><br>
And the document title was changed according to the discussion and the chai=
r&#39;s advice.<br>
<br>
During the last IETF meeting, we had a significant amount of discussion on =
this draft. And lots of comments were received in the meeting and mail disc=
ussion. Thanks for all your contributions.<br>
<br>
However, we couldn&#39;t include all your suggestions in the new ietf-00 ve=
rsion. Since the adoption call was based on the old -05 I-D, and we still h=
ave much controversy on some aspects. So the ietf-00 only did some minor re=
visions and added a bit general consensus discussion (see section 4).<br>


<br>
But I summarized several important topics that might be worth to be include=
d in the future:<br>
1. add some pros/cons of each general use cases<br>
2. add some operational considerations, might include, but not limited to t=
he following:<br>
=A02.1 ULA+IPv4 case, might reduce the user experience, as described in RFC=
5220, section 2.2.2<br>
=A02.2 ULA with a default route in host might be problematic, we need to de=
al with the ULA preference properly<br>
=A02.3 ULA+NPTv6, need some specific considerations, since NPTv6 is a state=
less one-to-one mapping<br>
<br>
Any comments to the new ietf-00 draft and the above potential revisions are=
 welcomed.<br>
<br>
Many thanks!<br>
<br>
B.R.<br>
Bing<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org">v6ops-bounces@ietf.org=
</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org">v6ops-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>] On Behalf<br>
&gt; Of <a href=3D"mailto:fred@cisco.com">fred@cisco.com</a><br>
&gt; Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 8:45 PM<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools=
.ietf.org">draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org</a><br=
>
&gt; Subject: [v6ops] new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A new draft has been posted, at<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recom=
mendations" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-u=
la-usage-recommendations</a>.<br>
&gt; Please take a look at it and comment.<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>

--0015175cf92a98177004dd219482--

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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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+1 I agree with Lorenzo on all counts.

Owen

On May 20, 2013, at 12:49 AM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> =
wrote:

> Bing,
>=20
> a few comments:
>=20
> I. "Notice that, as described in [RFC4864], in practice, applications =
may treat ULAs like global-scope addresses, but address selection =
algorithms may need to distinguish between ULAs and ordinary GUA =
Global-scope Unicast Address) to ensure bidirectional communications."
>=20
> 1. "In practice, applications may treat ULAs like global-scope =
addresses" is incorrect. ULAs are global-scope addresses, and we should =
state that they are.=20
> 2.  "Address selection algorithms may need to distinguish between ULAs =
and ordinary GUA (Global-scope Unicast Address) to ensure bidirectional =
communications." Which algorithms? Do the ones in RFC 6724 do this? If =
so, we should simply say that "applications distinguish between ULAs and =
GUA (Global-scope Unicast Address) because ULAs do not have global =
reachability". If not, then why not?
> 3. Why are you citing RFC4864? That is about firewalling, not =
uniqueness.
>=20
> Suggested replacement text: "Note that, while ULAs are global-scope =
addresses, they do not have global reachability. Therefore, address =
selection algorithms distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast =
Address) [RFC 6724]".
>=20
>=20
> II. "ULA provides an internal address independence capability in IPv6 =
that is similar to how [RFC1918] is commonly used." This is incorrect, =
because commonly, a host's RFC1918 address is the only address on the =
host, and  RFC1918 addresses communicate to the outside world via NAT. =
This is not the case for ULA.
>=20
>=20
> III. "what parameters have to be assembled or transmitted globally, by =
a separate function, through an appropriate gateway/firewall, to the =
Internet or to the telecom network." What does this mean? What is a =
"parameter" and how does one "assemble" it, or "transmit it globally"? =
What could a "separate function" be? What is the "telecom network"?
>=20
>=20
> IV. "Alternatively, it could be regenerated regularly, if desired for =
some reason." Can it? How regularly? If it is regenerated your ULA once =
a second, how soon before collisions become likely? What about 100, 1000 =
or 1000000 times per second? You probably want to qualify "regularly".
>=20
>=20
> V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which =
doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like =
DHCP or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes =
only support manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor =
doesn't support automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, =
but has enough resources to implement a UI for manual address =
assignment?
>=20
>=20
> VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes =
terrible operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; =
the multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 =
protocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we =
need to adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4." This text =
does not make sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses =
is a feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have multiple =
global-scope addresses. For example, you can use only global addresses =
and have no routing complexity.
>=20
>=20
> VII. "Another issue is mentioned in [RFC5220], there is a possibility =
that the longest matching rule will not be able to choose the correct =
address between ULAs and global unicast addresses for correct intra-site =
and extra-site communication." This text should be removed, since this =
problem was addressed in RFC 6724,
>=20
>=20
> VIII. "In [RFC6724] , it claimed that a site-specific policy entry can =
be used to cause ULAs within a site to be preferred over global =
addresses.". Why is this text here? Is it problem? Is it a solution?
>=20
>=20
> IX. "the pref64 is a very good use of ULA.". Actually, it isn't. Per =
RFC 6724, using ULA for the pref64 means that devices with an IPv4 =
address (e.g., using 464xlat) - will use IPv4 in preference to IPv6. =
Thus, there is no point in deploying NAT64 with ULA, because it will =
only be used for IPv6-only services (which basically don't exist). If =
the statement "Using ULA for Pref64 is deployed" refers to T-Mobile USA =
(which it might, given that T-Mobile USA is the affiliation of one of =
the authors), then that statement is no longer true - AIUI, the ULA =
pref64 was renumbered to GUA because of this problem. So I think this =
section should be removed.
>=20
> Regards,
> Lorenzo
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Liubing (Leo) =
<leo.liubing@huawei.com> wrote:
> Hi, Dear all
>=20
> This new ietf-00 draft is based on =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liu-v6ops-ula-usage-analysis-05
> And the document title was changed according to the discussion and the =
chair's advice.
>=20
> During the last IETF meeting, we had a significant amount of =
discussion on this draft. And lots of comments were received in the =
meeting and mail discussion. Thanks for all your contributions.
>=20
> However, we couldn't include all your suggestions in the new ietf-00 =
version. Since the adoption call was based on the old -05 I-D, and we =
still have much controversy on some aspects. So the ietf-00 only did =
some minor revisions and added a bit general consensus discussion (see =
section 4).
>=20
> But I summarized several important topics that might be worth to be =
included in the future:
> 1. add some pros/cons of each general use cases
> 2. add some operational considerations, might include, but not limited =
to the following:
>  2.1 ULA+IPv4 case, might reduce the user experience, as described in =
RFC5220, section 2.2.2
>  2.2 ULA with a default route in host might be problematic, we need to =
deal with the ULA preference properly
>  2.3 ULA+NPTv6, need some specific considerations, since NPTv6 is a =
stateless one-to-one mapping
>=20
> Any comments to the new ietf-00 draft and the above potential =
revisions are welcomed.
>=20
> Many thanks!
>=20
> B.R.
> Bing
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf
> > Of fred@cisco.com
> > Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 8:45 PM
> > To: v6ops@ietf.org
> > Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
> > Subject: [v6ops] new draft: =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
> >
> >
> > A new draft has been posted, at
> > =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations.
> > Please take a look at it and comment.
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=iso-8859-1"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">+1 I agree with Lorenzo on all counts.<div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br><div><div>On May 20, 2013, at 12:49 AM, Lorenzo Colitti &lt;<a href="mailto:lorenzo@google.com">lorenzo@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">Bing,<div><br></div><div>a few comments:</div><div><br></div><div>I. "Notice that, as described in [RFC4864], in practice, applications may treat ULAs like global-scope addresses, but address selection algorithms may need to distinguish between ULAs and ordinary GUA Global-scope Unicast Address) to ensure bidirectional communications."</div>

<div><br></div><div style="">1. "In practice, applications may treat ULAs like global-scope addresses" is incorrect. ULAs are global-scope addresses, and we should state that they are.&nbsp;</div><div style="">2. &nbsp;"Address selection algorithms may need to distinguish between ULAs and ordinary GUA (Global-scope Unicast Address) to ensure bidirectional communications." Which algorithms? Do the ones in RFC 6724 do this? If so, we should simply say that "applications distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Global-scope Unicast Address) because ULAs do not have global reachability". If not, then why not?</div>

<div style="">3. Why are you citing RFC4864? That is about firewalling, not uniqueness.</div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">Suggested replacement text: "Note that, while ULAs are global-scope addresses, they do not have global reachability. Therefore, address selection algorithms distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast Address) [RFC 6724]".</div>

<div><br></div><div><br></div><div style="">II. "ULA provides an internal address independence capability in IPv6 that is similar to how [RFC1918] is commonly used." This is incorrect, because commonly, a host's RFC1918 address is the only address on the host, and &nbsp;RFC1918 addresses communicate to the outside world via NAT. This is not the case for ULA.</div>

<div style=""><br></div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">III. "what parameters have to be assembled or transmitted globally, by a separate function, through an appropriate gateway/firewall, to the Internet or to the telecom network." What does this mean? What is a "parameter" and how does one "assemble" it, or "transmit it globally"? What could a "separate function" be? What is the "telecom network"?</div>

<div><br></div><div><br></div><div style="">IV. "Alternatively, it could be regenerated regularly, if desired for some reason." Can it? How regularly? If it is regenerated your ULA once a second, how soon before collisions become likely? What about 100, 1000 or 1000000 times per second? You probably want to qualify "regularly".</div>

<div style=""><br></div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't support automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough resources to implement a UI for manual address assignment?</div>

<div><br></div><div><br></div><div style="">VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes terrible operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; the multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 protocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need to adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4." This text does not make sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope addresses. For example, you can use only global addresses and have no routing complexity.</div>

<div style=""><br></div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">VII. "Another issue is mentioned in [RFC5220], there is a possibility that the longest matching rule will not be able to choose the correct address between ULAs and global unicast addresses for correct intra-site and extra-site communication." This text should be removed, since this problem was addressed in RFC 6724,</div>

<div style=""><br></div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">VIII. "In [RFC6724] , it claimed that a site-specific policy entry can be used to cause ULAs within a site to be preferred over global addresses.". Why is this text here? Is it problem? Is it a solution?</div>

<div style=""><br></div><div style=""><br></div><div style="">IX. "the pref64 is a very good use of ULA.". Actually, it isn't. Per RFC 6724, using ULA for the pref64 means that devices with an IPv4 address (e.g., using 464xlat) - will use IPv4 in preference to IPv6. Thus, there is no point in deploying NAT64 with ULA, because it will only be used for IPv6-only services (which basically don't exist). If the statement "Using ULA for Pref64 is deployed" refers to T-Mobile USA (which it might, given that T-Mobile USA is the affiliation of one of the authors), then that statement is no longer true - AIUI, the ULA pref64 was renumbered to GUA because of this problem. So I think this section should be removed.</div>

<div style=""><br></div><div style="">Regards,</div><div style="">Lorenzo</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Liubing (Leo) <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target="_blank">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Hi, Dear all<br>
<br>
This new ietf-00 draft is based on <a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liu-v6ops-ula-usage-analysis-05" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liu-v6ops-ula-usage-analysis-05</a><br>
And the document title was changed according to the discussion and the chair's advice.<br>
<br>
During the last IETF meeting, we had a significant amount of discussion on this draft. And lots of comments were received in the meeting and mail discussion. Thanks for all your contributions.<br>
<br>
However, we couldn't include all your suggestions in the new ietf-00 version. Since the adoption call was based on the old -05 I-D, and we still have much controversy on some aspects. So the ietf-00 only did some minor revisions and added a bit general consensus discussion (see section 4).<br>


<br>
But I summarized several important topics that might be worth to be included in the future:<br>
1. add some pros/cons of each general use cases<br>
2. add some operational considerations, might include, but not limited to the following:<br>
&nbsp;2.1 ULA+IPv4 case, might reduce the user experience, as described in RFC5220, section 2.2.2<br>
&nbsp;2.2 ULA with a default route in host might be problematic, we need to deal with the ULA preference properly<br>
&nbsp;2.3 ULA+NPTv6, need some specific considerations, since NPTv6 is a stateless one-to-one mapping<br>
<br>
Any comments to the new ietf-00 draft and the above potential revisions are welcomed.<br>
<br>
Many thanks!<br>
<br>
B.R.<br>
Bing<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href="mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org">v6ops-bounces@ietf.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org">v6ops-bounces@ietf.org</a>] On Behalf<br>
&gt; Of <a href="mailto:fred@cisco.com">fred@cisco.com</a><br>
&gt; Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 8:45 PM<br>
&gt; To: <a href="mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Cc: <a href="mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org">draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: [v6ops] new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A new draft has been posted, at<br>
&gt; <a href="http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations" target="_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations</a>.<br>
&gt; Please take a look at it and comment.<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href="mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href="https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" target="_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
</blockquote></div><br></div>
_______________________________________________<br>v6ops mailing list<br><a href="mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops<br></blockquote></div><br></div></body></html>
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Hi, Lorenzo

Thanks for your careful review and comments. Please see replies inline.

From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 3:50 PM
To: Liubing (Leo)
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.o=
rg
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-us=
age-recommendations

Bing,

a few comments:

I. "Notice that, as described in [RFC4864], in practice, applications may t=
reat ULAs like global-scope addresses, but address selection algorithms may=
 need to distinguish between ULAs and ordinary GUA Global-scope Unicast Add=
ress) to ensure bidirectional communications."

1. "In practice, applications may treat ULAs like global-scope addresses" i=
s incorrect. ULAs are global-scope addresses, and we should state that they=
 are.
[Bing] They are designed intended to be globally unique, but they are clear=
ly defined as "local IPv6 addresses". And the sentence actually comes from =
RFC4193, see section 1.

2.  "Address selection algorithms may need to distinguish between ULAs and =
ordinary GUA (Global-scope Unicast Address) to ensure bidirectional communi=
cations." Which algorithms? Do the ones in RFC 6724 do this? If so, we shou=
ld simply say that "applications distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Global-s=
cope Unicast Address) because ULAs do not have global reachability". If not=
, then why not?
[Bing] Yes, it meant the RFC6724, we mentioned 6724 in other places, but we=
 also need mention it here. Will do in the next version. Thanks.

3. Why are you citing RFC4864? That is about firewalling, not uniqueness.
[Bing] RFC4864 is meaningful in the use case discuss, but indeed not necess=
ary here, will update. Thanks.

Suggested replacement text: "Note that, while ULAs are global-scope address=
es, they do not have global reachability. Therefore, address selection algo=
rithms distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast Address) [RFC 6724]=
".
[Bing] As said above, I think the sentence would be good if delete "while U=
LAs are global-scope addresses".


II. "ULA provides an internal address independence capability in IPv6 that =
is similar to how [RFC1918] is commonly used." This is incorrect, because c=
ommonly, a host's RFC1918 address is the only address on the host, and  RFC=
1918 addresses communicate to the outside world via NAT. This is not the ca=
se for ULA.
[Bing] From the address independence perspective, they are similar. But I a=
gree with you the expression might not be accurate, will update, thanks.


III. "what parameters have to be assembled or transmitted globally, by a se=
parate function, through an appropriate gateway/firewall, to the Internet o=
r to the telecom network." What does this mean? What is a "parameter" and h=
ow does one "assemble" it, or "transmit it globally"? What could a "separat=
e function" be? What is the "telecom network"?
[Bing] The expression is odd, sorry, will update. The point we wanted to ma=
ke was the well know prefix is convenient for cross-domain policies.

IV. "Alternatively, it could be regenerated regularly, if desired for some =
reason." Can it? How regularly? If it is regenerated your ULA once a second=
, how soon before collisions become likely? What about 100, 1000 or 1000000=
 times per second? You probably want to qualify "regularly".
[Bing] Generally, "regularly regenerated" on-demand. Say, upper layer wants=
 a new ULA for a new session id. I think maybe we don't need to worry about=
 the regeneration rate that might increase the collision probability signif=
icantly.  That might only concern in a scientific research of collision.

V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which does=
n't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND=
." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support m=
anual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't support =
automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough resou=
rces to implement a UI for manual address assignment?
[Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, ther=
e might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for the nod=
es. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the embedded=
 system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-generating a UL=
A, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address provisioning proc=
edures.
And if they need to connect outside, then just add a NPTv6 gateway and make=
 it as the default gateway. This is to achieve a minimal network environmen=
t/management burden.

VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes terrib=
le operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; the multip=
le- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 protocol. Runni=
ng multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need to adapt thi=
s new operational model than that in IPv4." This text does not make sense. =
Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6 do=
esn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope addresses. For example,=
 you can use only global addresses and have no routing complexity.
[Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.
One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixe=
s in a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins need to be =
familiar with it in the future.
The other is about the address selection, without the new rules in RFC6724,=
 it might be problematic to run ULA+PA, when we discuss this in 6renum, Eri=
c Vyncke reported they had a terrible experience of using this mode several=
 years ago. In last IETF, we briefly discussed this issue again,  and we th=
ought it was probably because of the old address selection algorithms that =
didn't distinguish ULA from GUA.

VII. "Another issue is mentioned in [RFC5220], there is a possibility that =
the longest matching rule will not be able to choose the correct address be=
tween ULAs and global unicast addresses for correct intra-site and extra-si=
te communication." This text should be removed, since this problem was addr=
essed in RFC 6724,
[Bing] Ok, will update. Thanks.

VIII. "In [RFC6724] , it claimed that a site-specific policy entry can be u=
sed to cause ULAs within a site to be preferred over global addresses.". Wh=
y is this text here? Is it problem? Is it a solution?
[Bing] We might need to move it to a proper place.

IX. "the pref64 is a very good use of ULA.". Actually, it isn't. Per RFC 67=
24, using ULA for the pref64 means that devices with an IPv4 address (e.g.,=
 using 464xlat) - will use IPv4 in preference to IPv6. Thus, there is no po=
int in deploying NAT64 with ULA, because it will only be used for IPv6-only=
 services (which basically don't exist). If the statement "Using ULA for Pr=
ef64 is deployed" refers to T-Mobile USA (which it might, given that T-Mobi=
le USA is the affiliation of one of the authors), then that statement is no=
 longer true - AIUI, the ULA pref64 was renumbered to GUA because of this p=
roblem. So I think this section should be removed.
[Bing] Thanks for this valuable information. I'll ask our co-author to iden=
tify it.

Best regards,
Bing

Regards,
Lorenzo

On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 12:54 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com<mai=
lto:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
Hi, Dear all

This new ietf-00 draft is based on http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liu-v6o=
ps-ula-usage-analysis-05
And the document title was changed according to the discussion and the chai=
r's advice.

During the last IETF meeting, we had a significant amount of discussion on =
this draft. And lots of comments were received in the meeting and mail disc=
ussion. Thanks for all your contributions.

However, we couldn't include all your suggestions in the new ietf-00 versio=
n. Since the adoption call was based on the old -05 I-D, and we still have =
much controversy on some aspects. So the ietf-00 only did some minor revisi=
ons and added a bit general consensus discussion (see section 4).

But I summarized several important topics that might be worth to be include=
d in the future:
1. add some pros/cons of each general use cases
2. add some operational considerations, might include, but not limited to t=
he following:
 2.1 ULA+IPv4 case, might reduce the user experience, as described in RFC52=
20, section 2.2.2
 2.2 ULA with a default route in host might be problematic, we need to deal=
 with the ULA preference properly
 2.3 ULA+NPTv6, need some specific considerations, since NPTv6 is a statele=
ss one-to-one mapping

Any comments to the new ietf-00 draft and the above potential revisions are=
 welcomed.

Many thanks!

B.R.
Bing



> -----Original Message-----
> From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> [mailto:v6ops=
-bounces@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org>] On Behalf
> Of fred@cisco.com<mailto:fred@cisco.com>
> Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 8:45 PM
> To: v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
> Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draf=
t-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
> Subject: [v6ops] new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
>
>
> A new draft has been posted, at
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations.
> Please take a look at it and comment.
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
_______________________________________________
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi, Lorenz=
o<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Thanks for=
 your careful review and comments. Please see replies inline.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, May 20, 2013 3:50 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Liubing (Leo)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> v6ops@ietf.org; draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools=
.ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops=
-ula-usage-recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Bing,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">a few comments:<o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I. &quot;Notice that, as descri=
bed in [RFC4864], in practice, applications may treat ULAs like global-scop=
e addresses, but address selection algorithms may need to distinguish betwe=
en ULAs and ordinary GUA Global-scope Unicast
 Address) to ensure bidirectional communications.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D">1.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">&quot;In practice, applications may treat ULAs =
like global-scope addresses&quot; is incorrect. ULAs are global-scope addre=
sses, and we should state that they are.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] They are designed intended to be globally uniqu=
e, but they are clearly defined as &#8220;local IPv6 addresses&#8221;. And =
the sentence actually comes from RFC4193, see section
 1.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">2. &nbsp;&quot;Address selectio=
n algorithms may need to distinguish between ULAs and ordinary GUA (Global-=
scope Unicast Address) to ensure bidirectional communications.&quot; Which =
algorithms? Do the ones in RFC 6724 do this? If so,
 we should simply say that &quot;applications distinguish between ULAs and =
GUA (Global-scope Unicast Address) because ULAs do not have global reachabi=
lity&quot;. If not, then why not?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:9.6pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" sty=
le=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] Yes, it meant the RFC6724, we mentioned 6724 in=
 other places, but we also need mention it here. Will do in the next versio=
n. Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">3. Why are you citing RFC4864? =
That is about firewalling, not uniqueness.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:14.4pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] RFC4864 is meaningful in the use case discuss,=
 but indeed not necessary here, will update. Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Suggested replacement text: &qu=
ot;Note that, while ULAs are global-scope addresses, they do not have globa=
l reachability. Therefore, address selection algorithms distinguish between=
 ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast Address) [RFC
 6724]&quot;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:19.2pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] As said above, I think the sentence would be g=
ood if delete &#8220;while ULAs are global-scope addresses&#8221;.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">II. &quot;ULA provides an inter=
nal address independence capability in IPv6 that is similar to how [RFC1918=
] is commonly used.&quot; This is incorrect, because commonly, a host's RFC=
1918 address is the only address on the host,
 and &nbsp;RFC1918 addresses communicate to the outside world via NAT. This=
 is not the case for ULA.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-left:24.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] From the address independence perspective, the=
y are similar. But I agree with you the expression might not be accurate, w=
ill update, thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">III. &quot;what parameters have=
 to be assembled or transmitted globally, by a separate function, through a=
n appropriate gateway/firewall, to the Internet or to the telecom network.&=
quot; What does this mean? What is a &quot;parameter&quot;
 and how does one &quot;assemble&quot; it, or &quot;transmit it globally&qu=
ot;? What could a &quot;separate function&quot; be? What is the &quot;telec=
om network&quot;?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
The expression is odd, sorry, will update. The point we wanted to make was =
the well know prefix is convenient for cross-domain policies.</span><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">IV. &quot;Alternatively, it cou=
ld be regenerated regularly, if desired for some reason.&quot; Can it? How =
regularly? If it is regenerated your ULA once a second, how soon before col=
lisions become likely? What about 100, 1000 or
 1000000 times per second? You probably want to qualify &quot;regularly&quo=
t;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
Generally, &#8220;regularly regenerated&#8221; on-demand. Say, upper layer =
wants a new ULA for a new session id. I think maybe we don&#8217;t need to =
worry about the regeneration rate that might increase the
 collision probability significantly. &nbsp;That might only concern in a sc=
ientific research of collision.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">V. &quot;the network needs ULA =
as the on-demand and stable addressing which doesn't need much code to supp=
ort address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND.&quot; I don't think this=
 makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support
 manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't suppor=
t automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough res=
ources to implement a UI for manual address assignment?<o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, there might=
 not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for the nodes. If =
they can be pre-configured with ULA, say,
 hard-coded in the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single =
NIC or self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking withou=
t address provisioning procedures.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">And if =
they need to connect outside, then just add a NPTv6 gateway and make it as =
the default gateway. This is to achieve a minimal network environment/manag=
ement burden.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">VI. &quot;there always be some =
argument that in practice the ULA&#43;PA makes terrible operational complex=
ity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; the multiple- addresses-per-inte=
rface is an important feature of IPv6 protocol.
 Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need to ada=
pt this new operational model than that in IPv4.&quot; This text does not m=
ake sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a feature=
 of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have
 multiple global-scope addresses. For example, you can use only global addr=
esses and have no routing complexity.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
The ULA&#43;PA operational complexity contains two aspect.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">One is =
the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixes in a =
network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins need to be familia=
r with it in the future.
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">The oth=
er is about the address selection, without the new rules in RFC6724, it mig=
ht be problematic to run ULA&#43;PA, when we discuss this in 6renum, Eric V=
yncke reported they had a terrible experience
 of using this mode several years ago. In last IETF, we briefly discussed t=
his issue again,&nbsp; and we thought it was probably because of the old ad=
dress selection algorithms that didn&#8217;t distinguish ULA from GUA.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">VII. &quot;Another issue is men=
tioned in [RFC5220], there is a possibility that the longest matching rule =
will not be able to choose the correct address between ULAs and global unic=
ast addresses for correct intra-site and
 extra-site communication.&quot; This text should be removed, since this pr=
oblem was addressed in RFC 6724,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
Ok, will update. Thanks.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">VIII. &quot;In [RFC6724] , it c=
laimed that a site-specific policy entry can be used to cause ULAs within a=
 site to be preferred over global addresses.&quot;. Why is this text here? =
Is it problem? Is it a solution?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
We might need to move it to a proper place.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">IX. &quot;the pref64 is a very =
good use of ULA.&quot;. Actually, it isn't. Per RFC 6724, using ULA for the=
 pref64 means that devices with an IPv4 address (e.g., using 464xlat) - wil=
l use IPv4 in preference to IPv6. Thus, there
 is no point in deploying NAT64 with ULA, because it will only be used for =
IPv6-only services (which basically don't exist). If the statement &quot;Us=
ing ULA for Pref64 is deployed&quot; refers to T-Mobile USA (which it might=
, given that T-Mobile USA is the affiliation
 of one of the authors), then that statement is no longer true - AIUI, the =
ULA pref64 was renumbered to GUA because of this problem. So I think this s=
ection should be removed.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
Thanks for this valuable information. I&#8217;ll ask our co-author to ident=
ify it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Best re=
gards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Bing<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Regards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Lorenzo<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Mon, May 20, 2013 at 12:54 P=
M, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Hi, Dear all<br>
<br>
This new ietf-00 draft is based on <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/dr=
aft-liu-v6ops-ula-usage-analysis-05" target=3D"_blank">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-liu-v6ops-ula-usage-analysis-05</a><br>
And the document title was changed according to the discussion and the chai=
r's advice.<br>
<br>
During the last IETF meeting, we had a significant amount of discussion on =
this draft. And lots of comments were received in the meeting and mail disc=
ussion. Thanks for all your contributions.<br>
<br>
However, we couldn't include all your suggestions in the new ietf-00 versio=
n. Since the adoption call was based on the old -05 I-D, and we still have =
much controversy on some aspects. So the ietf-00 only did some minor revisi=
ons and added a bit general consensus
 discussion (see section 4).<br>
<br>
But I summarized several important topics that might be worth to be include=
d in the future:<br>
1. add some pros/cons of each general use cases<br>
2. add some operational considerations, might include, but not limited to t=
he following:<br>
&nbsp;2.1 ULA&#43;IPv4 case, might reduce the user experience, as described=
 in RFC5220, section 2.2.2<br>
&nbsp;2.2 ULA with a default route in host might be problematic, we need to=
 deal with the ULA preference properly<br>
&nbsp;2.3 ULA&#43;NPTv6, need some specific considerations, since NPTv6 is =
a stateless one-to-one mapping<br>
<br>
Any comments to the new ietf-00 draft and the above potential revisions are=
 welcomed.<br>
<br>
Many thanks!<br>
<br>
B.R.<br>
Bing<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
&gt; -----Original Message-----<br>
&gt; From: <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org">v6ops-bounces@ietf.org=
</a> [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org">v6ops-bounces@ietf.o=
rg</a>] On Behalf<br>
&gt; Of <a href=3D"mailto:fred@cisco.com">fred@cisco.com</a><br>
&gt; Sent: Saturday, May 18, 2013 8:45 PM<br>
&gt; To: <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Cc: <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools=
.ietf.org">
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; Subject: [v6ops] new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations=
<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; A new draft has been posted, at<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recom=
mendations" target=3D"_blank">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations</a>.<=
br>
&gt; Please take a look at it and comment.<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" target=3D"_bla=
nk">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
_______________________________________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D726A66nkgeml506mbxchi_--

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From: Erik Kline <ek@google.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 16:38:24 +0900
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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> I. "Notice that, as described in [RFC4864], in practice, applications may
> treat ULAs like global-scope addresses, but address selection algorithms =
may
> need to distinguish between ULAs and ordinary GUA Global-scope Unicast
> Address) to ensure bidirectional communications."
>
>
>
> 1. "In practice, applications may treat ULAs like global-scope addresses"=
 is
> incorrect. ULAs are global-scope addresses, and we should state that they
> are.
>
> [Bing] They are designed intended to be globally unique, but they are
> clearly defined as =E2=80=9Clocal IPv6 addresses=E2=80=9D. And the senten=
ce actually comes
> from RFC4193, see section 1.

No, they are global addresses.  Quoting from section 3.3 of 4193 (the
very first sentence): "By default, the scope of these addresses is
global."


> 3. Why are you citing RFC4864? That is about firewalling, not uniqueness.
>
> [Bing] RFC4864 is meaningful in the use case discuss, but indeed not
> necessary here, will update. Thanks.
>
>
>
> Suggested replacement text: "Note that, while ULAs are global-scope
> addresses, they do not have global reachability. Therefore, address
> selection algorithms distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast
> Address) [RFC 6724]".
>
> [Bing] As said above, I think the sentence would be good if delete =E2=80=
=9Cwhile
> ULAs are global-scope addresses=E2=80=9D.

Reminder: they are global addresses.  See 4193#section-3.3 (quoted
above) and 6724#section-3.1:

"Also, note that ULAs are considered as global, not site-local, scope
but are handled via the prefix policy table as discussed in Section
10.6."


Let's not try to remake ULAs into IPv6 RFC1918 space.

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To: Erik Kline <ek@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 17:13:05 +0900
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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--20cf3074b52a02e87304dd36068e
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On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com>wrot=
e:

>
> 1. "In practice, applications may treat ULAs like global-scope addresses"
> is incorrect. ULAs are global-scope addresses, and we should state that
> they are. ****
>
> [Bing] They are designed intended to be globally unique, but they are
> clearly defined as =93local IPv6 addresses=94. And the sentence actually =
comes
> from RFC4193, see section 1.
>
Ah, I see. So the problem here is that even though you copied and pasted
the sentence, the difference in context makes the word "may" have two
different meanings.

When RFC 4193 says "In practice, applications may treat these addresses
like global scoped addresses", what it means is that applications *are
permitted* to treat these addresses as global addresses. This is because
RFC 4193 is the specification that is defining these addresses, is
therefore normative, and is saying what applications are allowed to do.

However, in this draft, which is not normative and is intended to describe
usage of these addresses, saying "may treat these addresses like global
scope addresses" suggests that applications "may" treat them like global
scope addresses, but may also treat them differently. So basically, since
this document is not normative, saying "may" is ambiguous.

I suggest resolving the ambiguity by saying something that is more precise
- i.e., that ULAs are global-scope addresses. This is explicitly addressed
in RFC 4193 section 3.3 ("by default, the scope of these addresses is
global") and RFC 6724 section 3.1 ("note that ULAs are considered as global
[...] scope").

As for them being defined as "local IPv6 addresses", RFC 4193 does not
define them as "local IPv6 addresses". "Local IPv6 addresses" is just an
abbreviation used in RFC 4193, which says "These addresses are called
Unique Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses and are abbreviated in this document as
Local IPv6 addresses."

> Suggested replacement text: "Note that, while ULAs are global-scope
> addresses, they do not have global reachability. Therefore, address
> selection algorithms distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast
> Address) [RFC 6724]".
>
> [Bing] As said above, I think the sentence would be good if delete =93whi=
le
> ULAs are global-scope addresses=94.
>
Why are you suggesting deleting that text? Do you disagree that ULAs have
global scope? They do have global scope, as specified by both RFC 4193 and
RFC 6724.


> ****
>
> IV. "Alternatively, it could be regenerated regularly, if desired for som=
e
> reason." Can it? How regularly? If it is regenerated your ULA once a
> second, how soon before collisions become likely? What about 100, 1000 or
> 1000000 times per second? You probably want to qualify "regularly".
>
> [Bing] Generally, =93regularly regenerated=94 on-demand. Say, upper layer
> wants a new ULA for a new session id. I think maybe we don=92t need to wo=
rry
> about the regeneration rate that might increase the collision probability
> significantly.  That might only concern in a scientific research of
> collision.
>
No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193 section
3.2.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if you generate 10000 ULAs
you'll get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate 100000 (e.g., if
you regenerate them once a second, for one day) you'll get a collision once
in 1000 times. And so on.

> ****
>
> ** V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which
> doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP
> or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only
> support manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn=
't
> support automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has
> enough resources to implement a UI for manual address assignment?
>
> [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment,
> there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for t=
he
> nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the
> embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or
> self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without
> address provisioning procedures.
>
How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to
communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, you
can just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support router
advertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, then they
can use autoconfiguration.

> ****
>
> VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes
> terrible operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; th=
e
> multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 protoco=
l.
> Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need to
> adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4." This text does not
> make sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a
> feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope
> addresses. For example, you can use only global addresses and have no
> routing complexity.
>
> [Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.****
>
> One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple
> prefixes in a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins ne=
ed
> to be familiar with it in the future.
>
No, because having multiple prefixes introduces operational complexity even
if the admins understand multiple prefixes. All things being equal, having
only one prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be simpler than
having two.

In other words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity, because
admins will need to understand the complexity anyway". What I'm saying is
that while they need to understand the complexity, we don't have to create
the complexity if we don't need it.


>  ****
>
> The other is about the address selection, without the new rules in
> RFC6724, it might be problematic to run ULA+PA, when we discuss this in
> 6renum, Eric Vyncke reported they had a terrible experience of using this
> mode several years ago. In last IETF, we briefly discussed this issue
> again,  and we thought it was probably because of the old address selecti=
on
> algorithms that didn=92t distinguish ULA from GUA.
>
Then this section needs to be worded more clearly once the cause is clearly
determined and the problem clearly documented.

--20cf3074b52a02e87304dd36068e
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Liubing (Leo) <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">le=
o.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;bord=
er-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt"><div><div><div class=3D"im"><p=
 class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color=
:rgb(31,73,125)"><br>

1.
</span><span lang=3D"EN-US">&quot;In practice, applications may treat ULAs =
like global-scope addresses&quot; is incorrect. ULAs are global-scope addre=
sses, and we should state that they are.=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:4.8pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Bing] They are designed intended to be globally =
unique, but they are clearly defined as =93local IPv6 addresses=94. And the=
 sentence actually comes from RFC4193, see section
 1.</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style>Ah, I s=
ee. So the problem here is that even though you copied and pasted the sente=
nce, the difference in context makes the word &quot;may&quot; have two diff=
erent meanings.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>When RFC 4193 says &quot;In practice, appli=
cations may treat these addresses like global scoped addresses&quot;, what =
it means is that applications *are permitted* to treat these addresses as g=
lobal addresses. This is because RFC 4193 is the specification that is defi=
ning these addresses, is therefore normative, and is saying what applicatio=
ns are allowed to do.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>However, in this draft, which is not normat=
ive and is intended to describe usage of these addresses, saying &quot;may =
treat these addresses like global scope addresses&quot; suggests that appli=
cations &quot;may&quot; treat them like global scope addresses, but may als=
o treat them differently. So basically, since this document is not normativ=
e, saying &quot;may&quot; is ambiguous.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>I suggest resolving the ambiguity by saying=
 something that is more precise - i.e., that ULAs are global-scope addresse=
s. This is explicitly addressed in RFC 4193 section 3.3 (&quot;by default, =
the scope of these addresses is global&quot;) and RFC 6724 section 3.1 (&qu=
ot;note that ULAs are considered as global [...] scope&quot;).<br>

</div><div style><br></div><div style>As for them being defined as &quot;lo=
cal IPv6 addresses&quot;, RFC 4193 does not define them as &quot;local IPv6=
 addresses&quot;. &quot;Local IPv6 addresses&quot; is just an abbreviation =
used in RFC 4193, which says &quot;These addresses are called Unique Local =
IPv6 Unicast Addresses and are abbreviated in this document as Local IPv6 a=
ddresses.&quot;</div>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><d=
iv style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;border=
-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">

<div><div><p class=3D""><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80)">Suggested replac=
ement text: &quot;Note that, while ULAs are global-scope addresses, they do=
 not have global reachability. Therefore, address selection algorithms dist=
inguish between ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast Address) [RFC
 6724]&quot;.</span><br></p></div><div><p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:1=
9.2pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Bing] As said a=
bove, I think the sentence would be good if delete =93while ULAs are global=
-scope addresses=94.</span></p>

</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>Why are you suggesting dele=
ting that text? Do you disagree that ULAs have global scope? They do have g=
lobal scope, as specified by both RFC 4193 and RFC 6724.</div><div>=A0</div=
>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><d=
iv style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;border=
-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">

<div><div><p class=3D"" style=3D"margin-left:19.2pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" s=
tyle=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D""><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80)">IV. &quot;Alternatively, i=
t could be regenerated regularly, if desired for some reason.&quot; Can it?=
 How regularly? If it is regenerated your ULA once a second, how soon befor=
e collisions become likely? What about 100, 1000 or
 1000000 times per second? You probably want to qualify &quot;regularly&quo=
t;.</span><br></p></div><div>
<p class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Bing] Ge=
nerally, =93regularly regenerated=94 on-demand. Say, upper layer wants a ne=
w ULA for a new session id. I think maybe we don=92t need to worry about th=
e regeneration rate that might increase the
 collision probability significantly. =A0That might only concern in a scien=
tific research of collision.</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></bloc=
kquote><div style>No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RF=
C 4193 section 3.2.3. If I&#39;m reading that section correctly, if you gen=
erate 10000 ULAs you&#39;ll get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generat=
e 100000 (e.g., if you regenerate them once a second, for one day) you&#39;=
ll get a collision once in 1000 times. And so on.<br>

</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;b=
order-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:s=
olid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><=
div><div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;=
border-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">

<div><div><p class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><div class=3D"im">
<div>
<p class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=A0</span>V. &quot;the network ne=
eds ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which doesn&#39;t need much =
code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND.&quot; I don&=
#39;t think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support
 manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn&#39;t su=
pport automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough=
 resources to implement a UI for manual address assignment?</p></div>
</div><div>
<p class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Bing] Th=
e lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, there might n=
ot be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for the nodes. If th=
ey can be pre-configured with ULA, say,
 hard-coded in the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single =
NIC or self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking withou=
t address provisioning procedures.</span></p></div></div></div></div></div>

</blockquote><div style>How are those nodes going to find the MAC address o=
f the link router to communicate off-link? If they can&#39;t do this, then =
you don&#39;t need ULA, you can just use link-local. If they can do this, t=
hen they must support router advertisements or similar. If they support rou=
ter advertisements, then they can use autoconfiguration.=A0</div>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><d=
iv style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;border=
-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt">

<div><div><p class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)"=
><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D""><span style=3D"color:rgb(80,0,80)">VI. &quot;there always be =
some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes terrible operational comple=
xity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; the multiple- addresses-per-int=
erface is an important feature of IPv6 protocol.
 Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need to ada=
pt this new operational model than that in IPv4.&quot; This text does not m=
ake sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a feature=
 of IPv6 doesn&#39;t mean that you must have
 multiple global-scope addresses. For example, you can use only global addr=
esses and have no routing complexity.</span><br></p></div><div>
<p class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Bing] Th=
e ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.<u></u><u></u></span></=
p>
<p class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">One is th=
e common issue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixes in a ne=
twork is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins need to be familiar =
with it in the future.</span></p>

</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style>No, because having mu=
ltiple prefixes introduces operational complexity even if the admins unders=
tand multiple prefixes. All things being equal, having only one prefix (e.g=
., a global prefix) is always going to be simpler than having two.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>In other words: what you&#39;re saying is &=
quot;let&#39;s create complexity, because admins will need to understand th=
e complexity anyway&quot;. What I&#39;m saying is that while they need to u=
nderstand the complexity, we don&#39;t have to create the complexity if we =
don&#39;t need it.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px=
 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"p=
urple">
<div>
<div style=3D"border-style:none none none solid;border-left-color:blue;bord=
er-left-width:1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt"><div><div><p class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">
<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">The other=
 is about the address selection, without the new rules in RFC6724, it might=
 be problematic to run ULA+PA, when we discuss this in 6renum, Eric Vyncke =
reported they had a terrible experience
 of using this mode several years ago. In last IETF, we briefly discussed t=
his issue again,=A0 and we thought it was probably because of the old addre=
ss selection algorithms that didn=92t distinguish ULA from GUA.</span></p>

</div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style>Then this section nee=
ds to be worded more clearly once the cause is clearly determined and the p=
roblem clearly documented.</div></div></div></div>

--20cf3074b52a02e87304dd36068e--

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From: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Hi, Lorenzo

From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 4:13 PM
To: Liubing (Leo)
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.o=
rg
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-us=
age-recommendations

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com<mail=
to:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:

1. "In practice, applications may treat ULAs like global-scope addresses" i=
s incorrect. ULAs are global-scope addresses, and we should state that they=
 are.
[Bing] They are designed intended to be globally unique, but they are clear=
ly defined as "local IPv6 addresses". And the sentence actually comes from =
RFC4193, see section 1.
Ah, I see. So the problem here is that even though you copied and pasted th=
e sentence, the difference in context makes the word "may" have two differe=
nt meanings.

When RFC 4193 says "In practice, applications may treat these addresses lik=
e global scoped addresses", what it means is that applications *are permitt=
ed* to treat these addresses as global addresses. This is because RFC 4193 =
is the specification that is defining these addresses, is therefore normati=
ve, and is saying what applications are allowed to do.

However, in this draft, which is not normative and is intended to describe =
usage of these addresses, saying "may treat these addresses like global sco=
pe addresses" suggests that applications "may" treat them like global scope=
 addresses, but may also treat them differently. So basically, since this d=
ocument is not normative, saying "may" is ambiguous.

I suggest resolving the ambiguity by saying something that is more precise =
- i.e., that ULAs are global-scope addresses. This is explicitly addressed =
in RFC 4193 section 3.3 ("by default, the scope of these addresses is globa=
l") and RFC 6724 section 3.1 ("note that ULAs are considered as global [...=
] scope").

As for them being defined as "local IPv6 addresses", RFC 4193 does not defi=
ne them as "local IPv6 addresses". "Local IPv6 addresses" is just an abbrev=
iation used in RFC 4193, which says "These addresses are called Unique Loca=
l IPv6 Unicast Addresses and are abbreviated in this document as Local IPv6=
 addresses."

[Bing] Will update accordingly. Thanks.
Suggested replacement text: "Note that, while ULAs are global-scope address=
es, they do not have global reachability. Therefore, address selection algo=
rithms distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast Address) [RFC 6724]=
".
[Bing] As said above, I think the sentence would be good if delete "while U=
LAs are global-scope addresses".
Why are you suggesting deleting that text? Do you disagree that ULAs have g=
lobal scope? They do have global scope, as specified by both RFC 4193 and R=
FC 6724.
 [Bing] It was my misunderstanding of it, as explained to Erik.
IV. "Alternatively, it could be regenerated regularly, if desired for some =
reason." Can it? How regularly? If it is regenerated your ULA once a second=
, how soon before collisions become likely? What about 100, 1000 or 1000000=
 times per second? You probably want to qualify "regularly".
[Bing] Generally, "regularly regenerated" on-demand. Say, upper layer wants=
 a new ULA for a new session id. I think maybe we don't need to worry about=
 the regeneration rate that might increase the collision probability signif=
icantly.  That might only concern in a scientific research of collision.
No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193 section 3.2=
.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if you generate 10000 ULAs you'l=
l get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate 100000 (e.g., if you reg=
enerate them once a second, for one day) you'll get a collision once in 100=
0 times. And so on.
[Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where do we need =
to change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can hardly imagine a us=
e case of that.
 V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which doe=
sn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or N=
D." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support =
manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't support=
 automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough reso=
urces to implement a UI for manual address assignment?
[Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, ther=
e might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for the nod=
es. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the embedded=
 system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-generating a UL=
A, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address provisioning proc=
edures.
How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to com=
municate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, you can =
just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support router adv=
ertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, then they ca=
n use autoconfiguration.
[Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it's a basic IPv6 function , the =
draft specifically noted this point.  But if the sensors are in a MANET, th=
en the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional wired SLAAC, sin=
ce MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable for this scenari=
o, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear, will modify later.
VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes terrib=
le operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; the multip=
le- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 protocol. Runni=
ng multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need to adapt thi=
s new operational model than that in IPv4." This text does not make sense. =
Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6 do=
esn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope addresses. For example,=
 you can use only global addresses and have no routing complexity.
[Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.
One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixe=
s in a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins need to be =
familiar with it in the future.
No, because having multiple prefixes introduces operational complexity even=
 if the admins understand multiple prefixes. All things being equal, having=
 only one prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be simpler than=
 having two.

In other words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity, because adm=
ins will need to understand the complexity anyway". What I'm saying is that=
 while they need to understand the complexity, we don't have to create the =
complexity if we don't need it.
[Bing] No, I'm not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial use case in=
 6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity if they wan=
t the benefit.

The other is about the address selection, without the new rules in RFC6724,=
 it might be problematic to run ULA+PA, when we discuss this in 6renum, Eri=
c Vyncke reported they had a terrible experience of using this mode several=
 years ago. In last IETF, we briefly discussed this issue again,  and we th=
ought it was probably because of the old address selection algorithms that =
didn't distinguish ULA from GUA.
Then this section needs to be worded more clearly once the cause is clearly=
 determined and the problem clearly documented.
[Bing] Sure, agree.

B.R.
Bing

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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi, Lorenz=
o<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, May 21, 2013 4:13 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Liubing (Leo)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> v6ops@ietf.org; draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools=
.ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops=
-ula-usage-recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:13 PM=
, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><br>
1. </span><span lang=3D"EN-US">&quot;In practice, applications may treat UL=
As like global-scope addresses&quot; is incorrect. ULAs are global-scope ad=
dresses, and we should state that they are.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:4.8pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] They are designed inten=
ded to be globally unique, but they are clearly defined as
</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun;color:#1F497D">&#8220;</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">local IPv6 addresses</span><span st=
yle=3D"font-family:SimSun;color:#1F497D">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"color:#1F497D">. And the sentence actually comes
 from RFC4193, see section 1.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ah, I see. So the problem here =
is that even though you copied and pasted the sentence, the difference in c=
ontext makes the word &quot;may&quot; have two different meanings.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">When RFC 4193 says &quot;In pra=
ctice, applications may treat these addresses like global scoped addresses&=
quot;, what it means is that applications *are permitted* to treat these ad=
dresses as global addresses. This is because RFC
 4193 is the specification that is defining these addresses, is therefore n=
ormative, and is saying what applications are allowed to do.<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">However, in this draft, which i=
s not normative and is intended to describe usage of these addresses, sayin=
g &quot;may treat these addresses like global scope addresses&quot; suggest=
s that applications &quot;may&quot; treat them like global
 scope addresses, but may also treat them differently. So basically, since =
this document is not normative, saying &quot;may&quot; is ambiguous.<o:p></=
o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I suggest resolving the ambigui=
ty by saying something that is more precise - i.e., that ULAs are global-sc=
ope addresses. This is explicitly addressed in RFC 4193 section 3.3 (&quot;=
by default, the scope of these addresses
 is global&quot;) and RFC 6724 section 3.1 (&quot;note that ULAs are consid=
ered as global [...] scope&quot;).<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">As for them being defined as &q=
uot;local IPv6 addresses&quot;, RFC 4193 does not define them as &quot;loca=
l IPv6 addresses&quot;. &quot;Local IPv6 addresses&quot; is just an abbrevi=
ation used in RFC 4193, which says &quot;These addresses are called Unique
 Local IPv6 Unicast Addresses and are abbreviated in this document as Local=
 IPv6 addresses.&quot;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
Will update accordingly. Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#500050">Suggested replacement=
 text: &quot;Note that, while ULAs are global-scope addresses, they do not =
have global reachability. Therefore, address
 selection algorithms distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast Addr=
ess) [RFC 6724]&quot;.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto;margin-left:19.2pt">
<span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] As said above, I think =
the sentence would be good if delete
</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun;color:#1F497D">&#8220;</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">while ULAs are global-scope address=
es</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun;color:#1F497D">&#8221;</span><sp=
an lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Why are you suggesting deleting=
 that text? Do you disagree that ULAs have global scope? They do have globa=
l scope, as specified by both RFC 4193 and RFC 6724.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D">[Bing] It was my misunderstanding of it, as explained to Erik.</span><=
o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#500050">IV. &quot;Alternative=
ly, it could be regenerated regularly, if desired for some reason.&quot; Ca=
n it? How regularly? If it is regenerated your ULA
 once a second, how soon before collisions become likely? What about 100, 1=
000 or 1000000 times per second? You probably want to qualify &quot;regular=
ly&quot;.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] Generally,
</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun;color:#1F497D">&#8220;</span><span=
 lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">regularly regenerated</span><span s=
tyle=3D"font-family:SimSun;color:#1F497D">&#8221;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US=
" style=3D"color:#1F497D"> on-demand. Say, upper layer wants
 a new ULA for a new session id. I think maybe we don</span><span style=3D"=
font-family:SimSun;color:#1F497D">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=
=3D"color:#1F497D">t need to worry about the regeneration rate that might i=
ncrease the collision probability significantly.
 &nbsp;That might only concern in a scientific research of collision.</span=
><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">No, the probability is much hig=
her than you think. See RFC 4193 section 3.2.3. If I'm reading that section=
 correctly, if you generate 10000 ULAs you'll get a collision 1 in 500k tim=
es. If you generate 100000 (e.g., if
 you regenerate them once a second, for one day) you'll get a collision onc=
e in 1000 times. And so on.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where do we need to chan=
ge the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can hardly imagine a use case =
of that.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;V. &quot;the network needs ULA as the o=
n-demand and stable addressing which doesn't need much code to support addr=
ess assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND.&quot; I don't
 think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual addr=
ess assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't support automatic =
address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough resources to im=
plement a UI for manual address
 assignment?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] The lack of re=
sources mainly regarding the network environment, there might not be a comp=
rehensive network provisioning environment
 for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in =
the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-gen=
erating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address provi=
sioning procedures.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">How are those nodes going to fi=
nd the MAC address of the link router to communicate off-link? If they can'=
t do this, then you don't need ULA, you can just use link-local. If they ca=
n do this, then they must support router
 advertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, then the=
y can use autoconfiguration.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
Surely they need to support SLAAC, it&#8217;s a basic IPv6 function , the d=
raft specifically noted this point. &nbsp;But if the sensors are in a MANET=
, then the autoconfiguration is different with the
 traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA=
 is suitable for this scenario, however, current text seems not sufficient/=
clear, will modify later.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#500050">VI. &quot;there alway=
s be some argument that in practice the ULA&#43;PA makes terrible operation=
al complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem;
 the multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 prot=
ocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need t=
o adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4.&quot; This text does =
not make sense. Just because having multiple
 global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must hav=
e multiple global-scope addresses. For example, you can use only global add=
resses and have no routing complexity.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] The ULA&#43;PA=
 operational complexity contains two aspect.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">One is the common iss=
ue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixes in a network is new=
 to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins
 need to be familiar with it in the future.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">No, because having multiple pre=
fixes introduces operational complexity even if the admins understand multi=
ple prefixes. All things being equal, having only one prefix (e.g., a globa=
l prefix) is always going to be simpler
 than having two.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In other words: what you're say=
ing is &quot;let's create complexity, because admins will need to understan=
d the complexity anyway&quot;. What I'm saying is that while they need to u=
nderstand the complexity, we don't have to create
 the complexity if we don't need it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
No, I&#8217;m not say that. ULA&#43;PA is identified as beneficial use case=
 in 6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity if they =
want the benefit.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">The other is about th=
e address selection, without the new rules in RFC6724, it might be problema=
tic to run ULA&#43;PA, when we discuss this
 in 6renum, Eric Vyncke reported they had a terrible experience of using th=
is mode several years ago. In last IETF, we briefly discussed this issue ag=
ain,&nbsp; and we thought it was probably because of the old address select=
ion algorithms that didn</span><span style=3D"font-family:SimSun;color:#1F4=
97D">&#8217;</span><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">t
 distinguish ULA from GUA.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Then this section needs to be w=
orded more clearly once the cause is clearly determined and the problem cle=
arly documented.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
Sure, agree.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">B.R.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Bing<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D726B3Enkgeml506mbxchi_--

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--Apple-Mail=_2623307F-BEF7-4283-A509-7C7718DFE528
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset=windows-1252

On 21 May 2013, at 09:13, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:

> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Liubing (Leo) =
<leo.liubing@huawei.com> wrote:
> [Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.
>=20
> One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple =
prefixes in a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins =
need to be familiar with it in the future.
>=20
> No, because having multiple prefixes introduces operational complexity =
even if the admins understand multiple prefixes. All things being equal, =
having only one prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be =
simpler than having two.

It will of course be simpler, the open question being what is meant by =
"all things being equal".

In a homenet, there may be cases where there is no external =
connectivity, in some cases where none has yet been established (rather =
than it having been there and gone away). There may be devices that have =
ULAs "burnt in", for which those ULAs need to be routed around the scope =
of the homenet.  And there is an argument for ULAs for stable =
connectivity internally in the face of whatever happens to external =
prefix(es)/connectivity.

In a dual-stack homenet, there will be at least two prefixes, one IPv4, =
one IPv6.

Which reminds me, I would like to see this document do some deeper =
analysis of the issue raised after IETF86, regarding "ULAs on by =
default" alongside IPv4/NAT. That thread, discussing the practical =
issues, ran to 150+ emails before fizzling out without any specific =
proposed text, either for Bing's draft or the homenet arch. I recall =
that Ole's point on this was that *if* hosts supported RFC4191 RIO, then =
ULA routes could be added without a default route, and =
dependencies/timeouts on ICMPv6 redirects avoided. And RFC6204bis ULA-5 =
recommends that behaviour (along with L-3). The little snag is that =
current OSes certainly don't all support RFC4191.

> In other words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity, =
because admins will need to understand the complexity anyway". What I'm =
saying is that while they need to understand the complexity, we don't =
have to create the complexity if we don't need it.

Well, in a home network there will be no admins. Plug and play is what =
we want. But connection timeouts are equally what we do not want.

Tim



--Apple-Mail=_2623307F-BEF7-4283-A509-7C7718DFE528
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=windows-1252

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><div>On 21 May 2013, at 09:13, Lorenzo Colitti &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com">lorenzo@google.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Liubing =
(Leo) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote =
class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px =
0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left=
-style:solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" =
vlink=3D"purple"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-color: blue; border-left-width: 1.5pt; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm =
4pt; position: static; z-index: auto; "><div><div><p class=3D""><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">[Bing] The ULA+PA =
operational complexity contains two aspect.<u></u><u></u></span></p><p =
class=3D""><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125)">One is =
the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixes in =
a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins need to be =
familiar with it in the future.</span></p>

</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div style=3D"">No, because having =
multiple prefixes introduces operational complexity even if the admins =
understand multiple prefixes. All things being equal, having only one =
prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be simpler than having =
two.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>It will of =
course be simpler, the open question being what is meant by "all things =
being equal".</div><div><br></div><div>In a homenet, there may be cases =
where there is no external connectivity, in some cases where none has =
yet been established (rather than it having been there and gone away). =
There may be devices that have ULAs "burnt in", for which those ULAs =
need to be routed around the scope of the homenet. &nbsp;And there is an =
argument for ULAs for stable connectivity internally in the face of =
whatever happens to external =
prefix(es)/connectivity.</div><div><br></div><div>In a dual-stack =
homenet, there will be at least two prefixes, one IPv4, one =
IPv6.</div><div><br></div><div>Which reminds me, I would like to see =
this document do some deeper analysis of the issue raised after IETF86, =
regarding "ULAs on by default" alongside IPv4/NAT. That thread, =
discussing the practical issues, ran to 150+ emails before fizzling out =
without any specific proposed text, either for Bing's draft or the =
homenet arch. I recall that Ole's point on this was that *if* hosts =
supported RFC4191 RIO, then ULA routes could be added without a default =
route, and dependencies/timeouts on ICMPv6 redirects avoided. And =
RFC6204bis ULA-5 recommends that behaviour (along with L-3). The little =
snag is that current OSes certainly don't all support =
RFC4191.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div =
class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote">

<div style=3D"">In other words: what you're saying is "let's create =
complexity, because admins will need to understand the complexity =
anyway". What I'm saying is that while they need to understand the =
complexity, we don't have to create the complexity if we don't need =
it.</div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Well, in a home =
network there will be no admins. Plug and play is what we want. But =
connection timeouts are equally what we do not =
want.</div><div><br></div><div>Tim<br><br></div><div><br></div></body></ht=
ml>=

--Apple-Mail=_2623307F-BEF7-4283-A509-7C7718DFE528--

From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Tue May 21 04:22:13 2013
Return-Path: <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Le 21/05/2013 09:38, Erik Kline a Ã©crit :
>> I. "Notice that, as described in [RFC4864], in practice,
>> applications may treat ULAs like global-scope addresses, but
>> address selection algorithms may need to distinguish between ULAs
>> and ordinary GUA Global-scope Unicast Address) to ensure
>> bidirectional communications."
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. "In practice, applications may treat ULAs like global-scope
>> addresses" is incorrect. ULAs are global-scope addresses, and we
>> should state that they are.
>>
>> [Bing] They are designed intended to be globally unique, but they
>> are clearly defined as â€œlocal IPv6 addressesâ€�. And the sentence
>> actually comes from RFC4193, see section 1.
>
> No, they are global addresses.  Quoting from section 3.3 of 4193
> (the very first sentence): "By default, the scope of these addresses
> is global."
>
>
>> 3. Why are you citing RFC4864? That is about firewalling, not
>> uniqueness.
>>
>> [Bing] RFC4864 is meaningful in the use case discuss, but indeed
>> not necessary here, will update. Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> Suggested replacement text: "Note that, while ULAs are
>> global-scope addresses, they do not have global reachability.
>> Therefore, address selection algorithms distinguish between ULAs
>> and GUA (Global Unicast Address) [RFC 6724]".
>>
>> [Bing] As said above, I think the sentence would be good if delete
>> â€œwhile ULAs are global-scope addressesâ€�.
>
> Reminder: they are global addresses.

ULAs are:
- globaly unique to the extent their automatic generation guarantees
   that.
- globally scoped, have scope == global.
- not routable in the public domain, non publicly routable, not public,
   not routable in the DFZ (default free zone).

Alex

> See 4193#section-3.3 (quoted above) and 6724#section-3.1:
>
> "Also, note that ULAs are considered as global, not site-local,
> scope but are handled via the prefix policy table as discussed in
> Section 10.6."
>
>
> Let's not try to remake ULAs into IPv6 RFC1918 space.
> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>



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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On May 21, 2013, at 12:13 AM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com> =
wrote:

> Hi, Lorenzo
> =20
> Thanks for your careful review and comments. Please see replies =
inline.
> =20
> From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]=20
> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 3:50 PM
> To: Liubing (Leo)
> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
> =20
> Bing,
> =20
> a few comments:
> =20
> I. "Notice that, as described in [RFC4864], in practice, applications =
may treat ULAs like global-scope addresses, but address selection =
algorithms may need to distinguish between ULAs and ordinary GUA =
Global-scope Unicast Address) to ensure bidirectional communications."
> =20
> 1. "In practice, applications may treat ULAs like global-scope =
addresses" is incorrect. ULAs are global-scope addresses, and we should =
state that they are.=20
> [Bing] They are designed intended to be globally unique, but they are =
clearly defined as =93local IPv6 addresses=94. And the sentence actually =
comes from RFC4193, see section 1.
> =20

There is a subtlety to the language here that is important.

SCOPE has a specific meaning WRT IPv6 addresses. While ULAs are "Local" =
USE addresses, they are not Local SCOPE addresses. They are most =
definitely global scope addresses as that is meant in IPv6.

I don't see a reference to "local scope" in RFC 4193 section 1. However, =
even if there is, we should not duplicate that error here.


> Suggested replacement text: "Note that, while ULAs are global-scope =
addresses, they do not have global reachability. Therefore, address =
selection algorithms distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast =
Address) [RFC 6724]".
> [Bing] As said above, I think the sentence would be good if delete =
=93while ULAs are global-scope addresses=94.

Why? ULAs ARE global scope addresses. While they are not globally =
routed, they are of global scope. Currently there are only two defined =
scopes in IPv6=85 { Global , Link-Local }. There was a third scope =
(Site-Local), but those were deprecated prior to the creation of ULA.

> IV. "Alternatively, it could be regenerated regularly, if desired for =
some reason." Can it? How regularly? If it is regenerated your ULA once =
a second, how soon before collisions become likely? What about 100, 1000 =
or 1000000 times per second? You probably want to qualify "regularly".
> [Bing] Generally, =93regularly regenerated=94 on-demand. Say, upper =
layer wants a new ULA for a new session id. I think maybe we don=92t =
need to worry about the regeneration rate that might increase the =
collision probability significantly.  That might only concern in a =
scientific research of collision.

That really depends on whether or not there is a bound on regeneration =
rate. I'll leave out the obvious questions about dubious nature of rapid =
regeneration.

> V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which =
doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like =
DHCP or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes =
only support manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor =
doesn't support automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, =
but has enough resources to implement a UI for manual address =
assignment?
> [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, =
there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for =
the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in =
the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or =
self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without =
address provisioning procedures.
> And if they need to connect outside, then just add a NPTv6 gateway and =
make it as the default gateway. This is to achieve a minimal network =
environment/management burden.

I'm sorry, but this is just silly. SLAAC is extremely lightweight in its =
minimal implementation and if they self-generate a ULA, your "ad-hoc" =
network is going to need something (probably heavier) to allow the nodes =
to find each other. Indeed, once you implement enough of the ND process =
for two nodes to find each other even for link-local addressing, there's =
really not much left to complete the minimal implementation of SLAAC. I =
think this is an extremely poor use case and not one which should be =
deemed acceptable. Sensors are getting smarter and more capable. =
Existing sensors can and do (in many cases) implement SLAAC.

> VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes =
terrible operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; =
the multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 =
protocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we =
need to adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4." This text =
does not make sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses =
is a feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have multiple =
global-scope addresses. For example, you can use only global addresses =
and have no routing complexity.
> [Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.
> One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple =
prefixes in a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins =
need to be familiar with it in the future.

This is only a minor complexity and, frankly, is not new. It happens in =
IPv4. If both prefixes are, in fact, globally routable and/or have =
similar reachability profiles, then there is usually no issue.

What is unique to ULA is that it is a globally scoped address without =
global reachability. Now software must account for the fact that these =
global scope addresses are special and have an undefined limitation =
compared to other global scope addresses.

(One of the many reasons I think ULA is of dubious value at best).

> The other is about the address selection, without the new rules in =
RFC6724, it might be problematic to run ULA+PA, when we discuss this in =
6renum, Eric Vyncke reported they had a terrible experience of using =
this mode several years ago. In last IETF, we briefly discussed this =
issue again,  and we thought it was probably because of the old address =
selection algorithms that didn=92t distinguish ULA from GUA.

Right=85 As near as I can tell, this statement pretty much makes =
Lorenzo's point.

>=20
Owen


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><base href=3D"x-msg://25168/"></head><body =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On May 21, 2013, =
at 12:13 AM, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Hi, =
Lorenzo<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Thanks for =
your careful review and comments. Please see replies =
inline.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; position: static; =
z-index: auto; "><div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: =
3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; =
">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Lorenzo Colitti =
[mailto:lorenzo@<a href=3D"http://google.com" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; ">google.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Monday, May 20, 2013 3:50 =
PM<br><b>To:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Liubing=
 (Leo)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; ">v6ops@ietf.org</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" =
style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; =
">draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org</a><br><b>Subj=
ect:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [v6ops] A =
brief intro-//RE: new draft: =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></=
div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Bing,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">a few =
comments:<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">I. "Notice that, as described in =
[RFC4864], in practice, applications may treat ULAs like global-scope =
addresses, but address selection algorithms may need to distinguish =
between ULAs and ordinary GUA Global-scope Unicast Address) to ensure =
bidirectional communications."<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt 4.8pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">1.<span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">"In practice, applications may treat ULAs like =
global-scope addresses" is incorrect. ULAs are global-scope addresses, =
and we should state that they are.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 4.8pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, =
73, 125); ">[Bing] They are designed intended to be globally unique, but =
they are clearly defined as =93local IPv6 addresses=94. And the sentence =
actually comes from RFC4193, see section 1.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br><=
/div>There is a subtlety to the language here that is =
important.</div><div><br></div><div>SCOPE has a specific meaning WRT =
IPv6 addresses. While ULAs are "Local" USE addresses, they are not Local =
SCOPE addresses. They are most definitely global scope addresses as that =
is meant in IPv6.</div><div><br></div><div>I don't see a reference to =
"local scope" in RFC 4193 section 1. However, even if there is, we =
should not duplicate that error =
here.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; position: static; =
z-index: auto; "><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">Suggested replacement text: "Note that, while ULAs are =
global-scope addresses, they do not have global reachability. Therefore, =
address selection algorithms distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Global =
Unicast Address) [RFC 6724]".<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt 19.2pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">[Bing] As said above, I think the sentence would be good if delete =
=93while ULAs are global-scope =
addresses=94.</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div>=
<br></div>Why? ULAs ARE global scope addresses. While they are not =
globally routed, they are of global scope. Currently there are only two =
defined scopes in IPv6=85 { Global , Link-Local }. There was a third =
scope (Site-Local), but those were deprecated prior to the creation of =
ULA.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; position: static; =
z-index: auto; "><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt =
19.2pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">IV. "Alternatively, it could be =
regenerated regularly, if desired for some reason." Can it? How =
regularly? If it is regenerated your ULA once a second, how soon before =
collisions become likely? What about 100, 1000 or 1000000 times per =
second? You probably want to qualify =
"regularly".</span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Bing] =
Generally, =93regularly regenerated=94 on-demand. Say, upper layer wants =
a new ULA for a new session id. I think maybe we don=92t need to worry =
about the regeneration rate that might increase the collision =
probability significantly. &nbsp;That might only concern in a scientific =
research of =
collision.</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br=
></div>That really depends on whether or not there is a bound on =
regeneration rate. I'll leave out the obvious questions about dubious =
nature of rapid regeneration.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div=
 lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; position: static; =
z-index: auto; "><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand =
and stable addressing which doesn't need much code to support address =
assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND." I don't think this makes sense. =
Are you saying such nodes only support manual address assignment? How is =
it possible that a sensor doesn't support automatic address assignment =
due to lack of resources, but has enough resources to implement a UI for =
manual address assignment?<o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); ">[Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network =
environment, there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning =
environment for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, =
hard-coded in the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every =
single NIC or self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc =
networking without address provisioning =
procedures.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">And if they =
need to connect outside, then just add a NPTv6 gateway and make it as =
the default gateway. This is to achieve a minimal network =
environment/management =
burden.</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div>I'm sorry, but this is just silly. SLAAC is extremely lightweight in =
its minimal implementation and if they self-generate a ULA, your =
"ad-hoc" network is going to need something (probably heavier) to allow =
the nodes to find each other. Indeed, once you implement enough of the =
ND process for two nodes to find each other even for link-local =
addressing, there's really not much left to complete the minimal =
implementation of SLAAC. I think this is an extremely poor use case and =
not one which should be deemed acceptable. Sensors are getting smarter =
and more capable. Existing sensors can and do (in many cases) implement =
SLAAC.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; position: static; =
z-index: auto; "><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">VI. "there always be some argument =
that in practice the ULA+PA makes terrible operational complexity. But =
it is not a ULA-specific problem; the multiple- addresses-per-interface =
is an important feature of IPv6 protocol. Running multiple prefixes in =
IPv6 might be very common, and we need to adapt this new operational =
model than that in IPv4." This text does not make sense. Just because =
having multiple global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6 doesn't mean =
that you must have multiple global-scope addresses. For example, you can =
use only global addresses and have no routing =
complexity.</span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Bing] The =
ULA+PA operational complexity contains two =
aspect.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">One is the common =
issue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixes in a network =
is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins need to be familiar =
with it in the =
future.</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></=
div>This is only a minor complexity and, frankly, is not new. It happens =
in IPv4. If both prefixes are, in fact, globally routable and/or have =
similar reachability profiles, then there is usually no =
issue.</div><div><br></div><div>What is unique to ULA is that it is a =
globally scoped address without global reachability. Now software must =
account for the fact that these global scope addresses are special and =
have an undefined limitation compared to other global scope =
addresses.</div><div><br></div><div>(One of the many reasons I think ULA =
is of dubious value at best).</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; position: static; =
z-index: auto; "><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">The other is about =
the address selection, without the new rules in RFC6724, it might be =
problematic to run ULA+PA, when we discuss this in 6renum, Eric Vyncke =
reported they had a terrible experience of using this mode several years =
ago. In last IETF, we briefly discussed this issue again,&nbsp; and we =
thought it was probably because of the old address selection algorithms =
that didn=92t distinguish ULA from =
GUA.</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div=
>Right=85 As near as I can tell, this statement pretty much makes =
Lorenzo's point.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; position: static; =
z-index: auto; "><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blo=
ckquote></div><font face=3D"Times New Roman, serif"><span =
style=3D"font-size: 16px;">Owen</span></font><div><font face=3D"Times =
New Roman, serif"><span style=3D"font-size: =
16px;"><br></span></font></div></body></html>=

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From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: DNSv6 Proxy !
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I just realized that neither
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-bis-01#section-
5.1


Nit:


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From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
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I just realized that neither RFC6204, nor the bis draft
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-bis-01#section
-5.1) have added any specifics for what IPv6 address should the CPE router
use while executing the DNS proxy function (if enabled).

Should it use the IPv6 address assigned to its WAN interface (which is to
be used for CPE management, really) via DHCPv6 IA_NA or SLAAC, or the
address assigned to its LAN interface via DHCPv6 PD ?

I happen to have an affinity to using the latter. Perhaps, a discussion is
worth here.

(Please ignore the previous email, which was a premature send)

Cheers,
Rajiv


PS: Just noticed a nit in the section 5.1, btw:

//If the service provider specifies one
or more DNS resolvers in DHCP configuration options, the CE
router SHOULD forward all non-local DNS queries unchanged to
those servers.

//

s/server/resolver



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From: "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: DNSv6 Proxy !
Thread-Index: AQHOViQm+Pd3mqdCS0GWLskNYM77vpkPrrGA///ybgA=
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 13:52:09 +0000
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References: <B14A62A57AB87D45BB6DD7D9D2B78F0B116ACDFD@xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com> <B14A62A57AB87D45BB6DD7D9D2B78F0B116ACE79@xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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> I just realized that neither RFC6204, nor the bis draft
> (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-bis-01#secti=
on
> -5.1) have added any specifics for what IPv6 address should the CPE route=
r
> use while executing the DNS proxy function (if enabled).
>=20
> Should it use the IPv6 address assigned to its WAN interface (which is to=
 be
> used for CPE management, really) via DHCPv6 IA_NA or SLAAC, or the
> address assigned to its LAN interface via DHCPv6 PD ?

IMO, the default behavior of the CE router would be to use default address =
selection as described in RFC 6724. Since 6204bis (and RFC 6204) requires t=
he CE router to be an IPv6 node per RFC 6434, RFC 6434 requires address sel=
ection per RFC 3484, and RFC 6724 obsoletes RFC 3484, I think this is cover=
ed.

Since the DNSv6 query is being sent out the WAN interface, I would expect t=
he CE router to select an address from among those it considers appropriate=
 for traffic that it originates and sends out over that WAN interface. I wo=
uld hope that access providers would not be surprised by a CE router consid=
ering a globally scoped, preferred, and valid address assigned to its WAN i=
nterface as being appropriate for traffic that the CE router sends out over=
 the WAN interface. The idea that a CE router is supposed to interpret such=
 an address assigned to its WAN interface as being reserved for a special p=
urpose (CPE management) strikes me as odd. If the access provider wants to =
assign a special management address to the WAN interface, it would probably=
 be best to assign an address that would not end up being the CE router's f=
irst pick for other traffic, per RFC 6724 guidance.
Barbara

From jared@puck.nether.net  Tue May 21 06:53:26 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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On May 21, 2013, at 9:14 AM, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) <rajiva@cisco.com> =
wrote:

>=20
> //If the service provider specifies one
> or more DNS resolvers in DHCP configuration options, the CE
> router SHOULD forward all non-local DNS queries unchanged to
> those servers.
>=20
> //
>=20
> s/server/resolver


One more nit here, a CPE device providing DNS proxy MUST NOT listen to =
the WAN interface by default.  This poses a risk for DNS amplification =
attacks.  Right now about 46% of the IPs listed in the =
OpenResolverProject are CPE devices that respond on the WAN interface.

- Jared=

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Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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On May 21, 2013, at 6:52 AM, "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com> wrote:

>> I just realized that neither RFC6204, nor the bis draft
>> =
(http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-cpe-router-bis-01#sectio=
n
>> -5.1) have added any specifics for what IPv6 address should the CPE =
router
>> use while executing the DNS proxy function (if enabled).
>>=20
>> Should it use the IPv6 address assigned to its WAN interface (which =
is to be
>> used for CPE management, really) via DHCPv6 IA_NA or SLAAC, or the
>> address assigned to its LAN interface via DHCPv6 PD ?
>=20
> IMO, the default behavior of the CE router would be to use default =
address selection as described in RFC 6724. Since 6204bis (and RFC 6204) =
requires the CE router to be an IPv6 node per RFC 6434, RFC 6434 =
requires address selection per RFC 3484, and RFC 6724 obsoletes RFC =
3484, I think this is covered.
>=20

Technically true, but given the chain of RFCs you had to put together to =
make that point, restating it clearly here might not be such a bad =
thing, no?

> Since the DNSv6 query is being sent out the WAN interface, I would =
expect the CE router to select an address from among those it considers =
appropriate for traffic that it originates and sends out over that WAN =
interface. I would hope that access providers would not be surprised by =
a CE router considering a globally scoped, preferred, and valid address =
assigned to its WAN interface as being appropriate for traffic that the =
CE router sends out over the WAN interface. The idea that a CE router is =
supposed to interpret such an address assigned to its WAN interface as =
being reserved for a special purpose (CPE management) strikes me as odd. =
If the access provider wants to assign a special management address to =
the WAN interface, it would probably be best to assign an address that =
would not end up being the CE router's first pick for other traffic, per =
RFC 6724 guidance.

This incorporates a number of (not necessarily correct) assumptions =
about how things happen in the real world.

It is not at all unlikely that a provider would, e.g. design their =
network with one subset of their allocation used for management of CPE =
devices while using another subset for assigning customer addresses for =
general customer use. My understanding of RFC 6724 is that if the CPE =
were assigned (e.g.)
	2001:db8:1234::2 as a management address and
	2001:db8:9876::/48 for subscriber usage with the WAN link =
getting
	2001:db8:9876::2 with default gateway 2001:db8:9876::1, then
It would be ambiguous as to which of 2001:db8:1234::2 or =
2001:db8:9876::2 would be used to source traffic by default.

Owen


From Ted.Lemon@nominum.com  Tue May 21 07:36:11 2013
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From: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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On May 21, 2013, at 9:14 AM, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) <rajiva@cisco.com> wrote:
> Should it use the IPv6 address assigned to its WAN interface (which is to
> be used for CPE management, really) via DHCPv6 IA_NA or SLAAC, or the
> address assigned to its LAN interface via DHCPv6 PD ?

This doesn't make a lot of sense to me.   Why wouldn't it always use a sour=
ce address that's configured on the interface on which it is transmitting t=
he packet?


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From: Erik Kline <ek@google.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 23:39:36 +0900
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To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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> Should it use the IPv6 address assigned to its WAN interface (which is to
> be used for CPE management, really) via DHCPv6 IA_NA or SLAAC, or the
> address assigned to its LAN interface via DHCPv6 PD ?

If I were implementing one, I would do the following:

    [1]  reserve one /64 from the PD for internal use by the resolver

    [2]  the DNS proxy would maintain a small set of keys, rotating periodically

    [3]  when generating/forwarding a request, take an
HMAC(Key_current, "normalized query parameters")

    [4]  extract 64bits from a consistent portion of the HMAC, and use
that as the lower 64 if the upstream request

    [5]  when a response arrives, compute:

                (a) HMAC(Key_current, "normalized query parameters"), and
                (b) HMAC(Key_previous, "normalized query parameters")

          and verify that the destination address (that reaches the
dns proxy in the CPE) matches the reserved prefix in [1] plus the
consistently extracted 64bits from either [5a] or [5b].

You could even pull 16 more bits from the HMAC to use as the source
port of the query (and hence destination port of the reponse) and
validate that as well.

From v6ops@globis.net  Tue May 21 08:10:27 2013
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From: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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Jared Mauch wrote:
> On May 21, 2013, at 9:14 AM, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) <rajiva@cisco.com> wrote:
>
>> //If the service provider specifies one
>> or more DNS resolvers in DHCP configuration options, the CE
>> router SHOULD forward all non-local DNS queries unchanged to
>> those servers.
>>
>> //
>>
>> s/server/resolver
>
>
> One more nit here, a CPE device providing DNS proxy MUST NOT listen to the WAN interface by default.  This poses a risk for DNS amplification attacks.  Right now about 46% of the IPs listed in the OpenResolverProject are CPE devices that respond on the WAN interface.
>
> - Jared
Rather than simply not binding to the WAN interface, shouldn't any CPE
hosting a DNS server or any other process providing services intended
for use exclusively by local nodes really be checking the sanity of the
source address AND the interface on which the request packet is arriving
("inside" or "outside")?

I don't see any requirements text in Section 4.5 of
draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-12 that states whether a firewall is enabled by
default, so the inside address of the CPE might also be addressable and
reachable from off-site hosts. The text does say "ought to" and
"expected to" but that ain't a requirement.

regards,
RayH

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From: "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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> > IMO, the default behavior of the CE router would be to use default addr=
ess
> > selection as described in RFC 6724. Since 6204bis (and RFC 6204) requir=
es the
> > CE router to be an IPv6 node per RFC 6434, RFC 6434 requires address
> > selection per RFC 3484, and RFC 6724 obsoletes RFC 3484, I think this i=
s
> > covered.
> >
>=20
> Technically true, but given the chain of RFCs you had to put together to =
make
> that point, restating it clearly here might not be such a bad thing, no?

There are many, many cases where restating the obvious could be done. But d=
oing so would result in a very long and effectively unusable RFC.=20
In the absence of requirements that suggest otherwise, address selection pe=
r RFC 6724 from among addresses available for the interface that will be us=
ed to send the packet is pretty obvious, in my book. I only provided the ch=
ain to show that it was indeed covered by existing requirements.
>=20
> > Since the DNSv6 query is being sent out the WAN interface, I would expe=
ct
> > the CE router to select an address from among those it considers approp=
riate
> > for traffic that it originates and sends out over that WAN interface. I=
 would
> > hope that access providers would not be surprised by a CE router consid=
ering
> > a globally scoped, preferred, and valid address assigned to its WAN int=
erface
> > as being appropriate for traffic that the CE router sends out over the =
WAN
> > interface. The idea that a CE router is supposed to interpret such an a=
ddress
> > assigned to its WAN interface as being reserved for a special purpose (=
CPE
> > management) strikes me as odd. If the access provider wants to assign a
> > special management address to the WAN interface, it would probably be
> > best to assign an address that would not end up being the CE router's f=
irst
> > pick for other traffic, per RFC 6724 guidance.

> This incorporates a number of (not necessarily correct) assumptions about
> how things happen in the real world.
>=20
> It is not at all unlikely that a provider would, e.g. design their networ=
k with
> one subset of their allocation used for management of CPE devices while
> using another subset for assigning customer addresses for general custome=
r
> use. My understanding of RFC 6724 is that if the CPE were assigned (e.g.)
> 	2001:db8:1234::2 as a management address and
> 	2001:db8:9876::/48 for subscriber usage with the WAN link getting
> 	2001:db8:9876::2 with default gateway 2001:db8:9876::1, then It
> would be ambiguous as to which of 2001:db8:1234::2 or 2001:db8:9876::2
> would be used to source traffic by default.
>=20
> Owen

>From the perspective of the access network, the dangerous assumption would =
be to think that a generic "RFC 6204" or "6204bis" CE router device (i.e., =
no affiliation with any access provider, not designed per eRouter requireme=
nts, BBF TR-124, HGI home gateway requirements, or any other such org's req=
uirements), would treat a globally scoped, preferred, and valid IPv6 addres=
s assigned to its WAN interface as anything other than fair game for all tr=
affic that the CE router originates and sends out that WAN interface. To th=
ink that such an IPv6 address could be provided to a generic CE router, and=
 the CE router would treat it as some sort of special "for management purpo=
ses only" address is a really, really, bad assumption. IMO, my assumption t=
hat this is a bad assumption is very well-grounded in how things happen in =
the real world.

If an access provider wants to be sure of what a CE router will do with add=
resses that it is given, then that access provider had better have some way=
 of making sure that CE router meets additional requirements specified exte=
rnal to IETF. If the provider you describe has some idea of what they're do=
ing, they will have specified requirements for CPE they want to manage; req=
uirements would include such details as protocol for management, how to set=
 up a management interface, credentials for management, etc. If the access =
provider you describe above is assigning all those addresses to some generi=
c RFC 6204 / 6204bis CE router, that can have no assumed knowledge of manag=
ement interfaces or protocols, and the provider is expecting those addresse=
s to be used for the purposes you describe... well, that's just too bad. IE=
TF RFCs are not cures for stupidity.

An access provider who allows subscribers to use generic, unidentified "620=
4/6204bis" CE routers also cannot assume that DNS queries coming from that =
subscriber's link will originate from an address assigned to the CE router'=
s WAN interface. If the access provider consciously allows for such routers=
, I don't see why the access provider would care whether DNS queries origin=
ate from an address of a delegated prefix or an address assigned to the CE =
router's WAN interface.
Barbara

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Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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On May 21, 2013, at 7:39 AM, Erik Kline <ek@google.com> wrote:

>> Should it use the IPv6 address assigned to its WAN interface (which =
is to
>> be used for CPE management, really) via DHCPv6 IA_NA or SLAAC, or the
>> address assigned to its LAN interface via DHCPv6 PD ?
>=20
> If I were implementing one, I would do the following:
>=20
>    [1]  reserve one /64 from the PD for internal use by the resolver
>=20

The problem with this approach is that you are assuming that the =
provider always grants at least n+1 /64s in the PD where n is the number =
of subnets needed on the client side.

Given that some ISPs are so misguided as to dole out /60s (or even =
less), I don't think you can take that for granted.

>    [2]  the DNS proxy would maintain a small set of keys, rotating =
periodically
>=20
>    [3]  when generating/forwarding a request, take an
> HMAC(Key_current, "normalized query parameters")
>=20
>    [4]  extract 64bits from a consistent portion of the HMAC, and use
> that as the lower 64 if the upstream request
>=20
>    [5]  when a response arrives, compute:
>=20
>                (a) HMAC(Key_current, "normalized query parameters"), =
and
>                (b) HMAC(Key_previous, "normalized query parameters")
>=20
>          and verify that the destination address (that reaches the
> dns proxy in the CPE) matches the reserved prefix in [1] plus the
> consistently extracted 64bits from either [5a] or [5b].
>=20
> You could even pull 16 more bits from the HMAC to use as the source
> port of the query (and hence destination port of the reponse) and
> validate that as well.

What do you gain from all this extra complexity that you don't get from =
DNSSEC?

Owen


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To: "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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On May 21, 2013, at 8:31 AM, "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com> wrote:

>=20
>=20
>>> IMO, the default behavior of the CE router would be to use default =
address
>>> selection as described in RFC 6724. Since 6204bis (and RFC 6204) =
requires the
>>> CE router to be an IPv6 node per RFC 6434, RFC 6434 requires address
>>> selection per RFC 3484, and RFC 6724 obsoletes RFC 3484, I think =
this is
>>> covered.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> Technically true, but given the chain of RFCs you had to put together =
to make
>> that point, restating it clearly here might not be such a bad thing, =
no?
>=20
> There are many, many cases where restating the obvious could be done. =
But doing so would result in a very long and effectively unusable RFC.=20=


True, but this isn't one of those cases.

This is a case where the required chain of RFCs to arrive at the =
"obvious" is non-obvious and where restatement of the non-obvious =
(ideally with appropriate referential footnotes to the original RFCs) is =
brief and helpful.

> In the absence of requirements that suggest otherwise, address =
selection per RFC 6724 from among addresses available for the interface =
that will be used to send the packet is pretty obvious, in my book. I =
only provided the chain to show that it was indeed covered by existing =
requirements.

While I would agree with you, that statement doesn't actually address at =
least one aspect of the question.

>>> Since the DNSv6 query is being sent out the WAN interface, I would =
expect
>>> the CE router to select an address from among those it considers =
appropriate
>>> for traffic that it originates and sends out over that WAN =
interface. I would
>>> hope that access providers would not be surprised by a CE router =
considering
>>> a globally scoped, preferred, and valid address assigned to its WAN =
interface
>>> as being appropriate for traffic that the CE router sends out over =
the WAN
>>> interface. The idea that a CE router is supposed to interpret such =
an address
>>> assigned to its WAN interface as being reserved for a special =
purpose (CPE
>>> management) strikes me as odd. If the access provider wants to =
assign a
>>> special management address to the WAN interface, it would probably =
be
>>> best to assign an address that would not end up being the CE =
router's first
>>> pick for other traffic, per RFC 6724 guidance.
>=20
>> This incorporates a number of (not necessarily correct) assumptions =
about
>> how things happen in the real world.
>>=20
>> It is not at all unlikely that a provider would, e.g. design their =
network with
>> one subset of their allocation used for management of CPE devices =
while
>> using another subset for assigning customer addresses for general =
customer
>> use. My understanding of RFC 6724 is that if the CPE were assigned =
(e.g.)
>> 	2001:db8:1234::2 as a management address and
>> 	2001:db8:9876::/48 for subscriber usage with the WAN link =
getting
>> 	2001:db8:9876::2 with default gateway 2001:db8:9876::1, then It
>> would be ambiguous as to which of 2001:db8:1234::2 or =
2001:db8:9876::2
>> would be used to source traffic by default.
>>=20
>> Owen
>=20

[quote level error corrected on the next paragraph, I believe this came =
from Barbara Stark] but it was quoted at the level to suggest I said it.

> =46rom the perspective of the access network, the dangerous assumption =
would be to think that a generic "RFC 6204" or "6204bis" CE router =
device (i.e., no affiliation with any access provider, not designed per =
eRouter requirements, BBF TR-124, HGI home gateway requirements, or any =
other such org's requirements), would treat a globally scoped, =
preferred, and valid IPv6 address assigned to its WAN interface as =
anything other than fair game for all traffic that the CE router =
originates and sends out that WAN interface. To think that such an IPv6 =
address could be provided to a generic CE router, and the CE router =
would treat it as some sort of special "for management purposes only" =
address is a really, really, bad assumption. IMO, my assumption that =
this is a bad assumption is very well-grounded in how things happen in =
the real world.

In the case of a generic router, I'm inclined to agree with you. =
However, that doesn't mean that such will not happen.
In fact, the way this will most likely happen is an SP that mostly =
provides routers to customers and forgets that the
customer routers that they didn't provide may not behave in this =
particular way or even remember after a few years
that this behavior is peculiar.

> If an access provider wants to be sure of what a CE router will do =
with addresses that it is given, then that access provider had better =
have some way of making sure that CE router meets additional =
requirements specified external to IETF. If the provider you describe =
has some idea of what they're doing, they will have specified =
requirements for CPE they want to manage; requirements would include =
such details as protocol for management, how to set up a management =
interface, credentials for management, etc. If the access provider you =
describe above is assigning all those addresses to some generic RFC 6204 =
/ 6204bis CE router, that can have no assumed knowledge of management =
interfaces or protocols, and the provider is expecting those addresses =
to be used for the purposes you describe... well, that's just too bad. =
IETF RFCs are not cures for stupidity.
>=20
> An access provider who allows subscribers to use generic, unidentified =
"6204/6204bis" CE routers also cannot assume that DNS queries coming =
from that subscriber's link will originate from an address assigned to =
the CE router's WAN interface. If the access provider consciously allows =
for such routers, I don't see why the access provider would care whether =
DNS queries originate from an address of a delegated prefix or an =
address assigned to the CE router's WAN interface.

Allows is always an interesting term in this context.

Owen


From jared@puck.nether.net  Tue May 21 13:06:04 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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On May 21, 2013, at 11:10 AM, Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net> wrote:

>=20
>=20
> Jared Mauch wrote:
>> On May 21, 2013, at 9:14 AM, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) <rajiva@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> //If the service provider specifies one
>>> or more DNS resolvers in DHCP configuration options, the CE
>>> router SHOULD forward all non-local DNS queries unchanged to
>>> those servers.
>>>=20
>>> //
>>>=20
>>> s/server/resolver
>>=20
>>=20
>> One more nit here, a CPE device providing DNS proxy MUST NOT listen =
to the WAN interface by default.  This poses a risk for DNS =
amplification attacks.  Right now about 46% of the IPs listed in the =
OpenResolverProject are CPE devices that respond on the WAN interface.
>>=20
>> - Jared
> Rather than simply not binding to the WAN interface, shouldn't any CPE
> hosting a DNS server or any other process providing services intended
> for use exclusively by local nodes really be checking the sanity of =
the
> source address AND the interface on which the request packet is =
arriving
> ("inside" or "outside")?

If it's doing DNS PROXY, it should only listen to the address it's =
advertising to the hosts that it routes on behalf of, and not those that =
are part of a ::/0 default range.

> I don't see any requirements text in Section 4.5 of
> draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-12 that states whether a firewall is enabled =
by
> default, so the inside address of the CPE might also be addressable =
and
> reachable from off-site hosts. The text does say "ought to" and
> "expected to" but that ain't a requirement.

Perhaps that needs to be fixed.  I'm seeing about 14 million CPE devices =
(at least) that are open resolvers in the IPv4 universe.  I want to make =
sure we are setting and specifying appropriate defaults instead of =
listening on [*:53]

- Jared=

From sthaug@nethelp.no  Tue May 21 13:15:27 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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> > I don't see any requirements text in Section 4.5 of
> > draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-12 that states whether a firewall is enabled by
> > default, so the inside address of the CPE might also be addressable and
> > reachable from off-site hosts. The text does say "ought to" and
> > "expected to" but that ain't a requirement.
> 
> Perhaps that needs to be fixed.  I'm seeing about 14 million CPE devices (at least) that are open resolvers in the IPv4 universe.  I want to make sure we are setting and specifying appropriate defaults instead of listening on [*:53]

Yes, this needs to be fixed. In the meantime, some of us are putting
such a requirement (both for IPv4 and IPv6) into our RFQs etc.

Steinar Haug, AS 2116

From v6ops@globis.net  Tue May 21 13:20:09 2013
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 22:19:16 +0200
From: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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> Jared Mauch <mailto:jared@puck.nether.net>
> 21 May 2013 22:05
> On May 21, 2013, at 11:10 AM, Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net> wrote:
>
>> Jared Mauch wrote:
>>> On May 21, 2013, at 9:14 AM, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) <rajiva@cisco.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> //If the service provider specifies one
>>>> or more DNS resolvers in DHCP configuration options, the CE
>>>> router SHOULD forward all non-local DNS queries unchanged to
>>>> those servers.
>>>>
>>>> //
>>>>
>>>> s/server/resolver
>>> One more nit here, a CPE device providing DNS proxy MUST NOT listen to the WAN interface by default.  This poses a risk for DNS amplification attacks.  Right now about 46% of the IPs listed in the OpenResolverProject are CPE devices that respond on the WAN interface.
>>>
>>> - Jared
>> Rather than simply not binding to the WAN interface, shouldn't any CPE
>> hosting a DNS server or any other process providing services intended
>> for use exclusively by local nodes really be checking the sanity of the
>> source address AND the interface on which the request packet is arriving
>> ("inside" or "outside")?
>
> If it's doing DNS PROXY, it should only listen to the address it's advertising to the hosts that it routes on behalf of, and not those that are part of a ::/0 default range.
The point is that your suggested mitigation measure is not enough on its
own. If I'm an attacker performing an amplification attack, I don't care
about receiving the responses. It's simple enough to inject UDP packets
with spoofed source addresses. Not everyone on every remote site has
effective uRPF or ingress filters deployed, so IMHO the service/CPE must
also perform this uRPF type function itself locally.
>> I don't see any requirements text in Section 4.5 of
>> draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-12 that states whether a firewall is enabled by
>> default, so the inside address of the CPE might also be addressable and
>> reachable from off-site hosts. The text does say "ought to" and
>> "expected to" but that ain't a requirement.
>
> Perhaps that needs to be fixed.  I'm seeing about 14 million CPE devices (at least) that are open resolvers in the IPv4 universe.  I want to make sure we are setting and specifying appropriate defaults instead of listening on [*:53]
>
> - Jared
Agree entirely with the goal of closing down open resolvers, but
mandating a default blanket inbound firewall is a separate discussion IMHO.
Mandating that services intended for local use must perform uRPF-like
checks and only accept connections from local addresses would solve the
problem without having to mandate a firewall.

regards,
RayH

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Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 08:21:15 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
Organization: University of Auckland
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On 21/05/2013 23:33, Owen DeLong wrote:
> On May 21, 2013, at 12:13 AM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com> wr=
ote:
>=20
>> Hi, Lorenzo
>> =20
>> Thanks for your careful review and comments. Please see replies inline=
=2E
>> =20
>> From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]=20
>> Sent: Monday, May 20, 2013 3:50 PM
>> To: Liubing (Leo)
>> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.i=
etf.org
>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-u=
la-usage-recommendations
>> =20
>> Bing,
>> =20
>> a few comments:
>> =20
>> I. "Notice that, as described in [RFC4864], in practice, applications =
may treat ULAs like global-scope addresses, but address selection algorit=
hms may need to distinguish between ULAs and ordinary GUA Global-scope Un=
icast Address) to ensure bidirectional communications."
>> =20
>> 1. "In practice, applications may treat ULAs like global-scope address=
es" is incorrect. ULAs are global-scope addresses, and we should state th=
at they are.=20
>> [Bing] They are designed intended to be globally unique, but they are =
clearly defined as =E2=80=9Clocal IPv6 addresses=E2=80=9D. And the senten=
ce actually comes from RFC4193, see section 1.
>> =20
>=20
> There is a subtlety to the language here that is important.
>=20
> SCOPE has a specific meaning WRT IPv6 addresses. While ULAs are "Local"=
 USE addresses, they are not Local SCOPE addresses. They are most definit=
ely global scope addresses as that is meant in IPv6.

That's correct, of course. The underlying problem here is that the
notion of concentric circles of scope that was originally described
for IPv6 is simply broken. We can't fix that in the context of
describing ULA usage scenarios, so let's not try.

(For further thoughts on this see draft-carpenter-referral-ps-02
or even draft-carpenter-behave-referral-object-01.)

   Brian
> I don't see a reference to "local scope" in RFC 4193 section 1. However=
, even if there is, we should not duplicate that error here.
>=20
>=20
>> Suggested replacement text: "Note that, while ULAs are global-scope ad=
dresses, they do not have global reachability. Therefore, address selecti=
on algorithms distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast Address) [=
RFC 6724]".
>> [Bing] As said above, I think the sentence would be good if delete =E2=
=80=9Cwhile ULAs are global-scope addresses=E2=80=9D.
>=20
> Why? ULAs ARE global scope addresses. While they are not globally route=
d, they are of global scope. Currently there are only two defined scopes =
in IPv6=E2=80=A6 { Global , Link-Local }. There was a third scope (Site-L=
ocal), but those were deprecated prior to the creation of ULA.
>=20
>> IV. "Alternatively, it could be regenerated regularly, if desired for =
some reason." Can it? How regularly? If it is regenerated your ULA once a=
 second, how soon before collisions become likely? What about 100, 1000 o=
r 1000000 times per second? You probably want to qualify "regularly".
>> [Bing] Generally, =E2=80=9Cregularly regenerated=E2=80=9D on-demand. S=
ay, upper layer wants a new ULA for a new session id. I think maybe we do=
n=E2=80=99t need to worry about the regeneration rate that might increase=
 the collision probability significantly.  That might only concern in a s=
cientific research of collision.
>=20
> That really depends on whether or not there is a bound on regeneration =
rate. I'll leave out the obvious questions about dubious nature of rapid =
regeneration.
>=20
>> V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which=
 doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHC=
P or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only =
support manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn=
't support automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has=
 enough resources to implement a UI for manual address assignment?
>> [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment,=
 there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for =
the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the=
 embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-gene=
rating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address prov=
isioning procedures.
>> And if they need to connect outside, then just add a NPTv6 gateway and=
 make it as the default gateway. This is to achieve a minimal network env=
ironment/management burden.
>=20
> I'm sorry, but this is just silly. SLAAC is extremely lightweight in it=
s minimal implementation and if they self-generate a ULA, your "ad-hoc" n=
etwork is going to need something (probably heavier) to allow the nodes t=
o find each other. Indeed, once you implement enough of the ND process fo=
r two nodes to find each other even for link-local addressing, there's re=
ally not much left to complete the minimal implementation of SLAAC. I thi=
nk this is an extremely poor use case and not one which should be deemed =
acceptable. Sensors are getting smarter and more capable. Existing sensor=
s can and do (in many cases) implement SLAAC.
>=20
>> VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes t=
errible operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; the=
 multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 protoc=
ol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need t=
o adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4." This text does not=
 make sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a fea=
ture of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope addres=
ses. For example, you can use only global addresses and have no routing c=
omplexity.
>> [Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.
>> One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple pr=
efixes in a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins need=
 to be familiar with it in the future.
>=20
> This is only a minor complexity and, frankly, is not new. It happens in=
 IPv4. If both prefixes are, in fact, globally routable and/or have simil=
ar reachability profiles, then there is usually no issue.
>=20
> What is unique to ULA is that it is a globally scoped address without g=
lobal reachability. Now software must account for the fact that these glo=
bal scope addresses are special and have an undefined limitation compared=
 to other global scope addresses.
>=20
> (One of the many reasons I think ULA is of dubious value at best).
>=20
>> The other is about the address selection, without the new rules in RFC=
6724, it might be problematic to run ULA+PA, when we discuss this in 6ren=
um, Eric Vyncke reported they had a terrible experience of using this mod=
e several years ago. In last IETF, we briefly discussed this issue again,=
  and we thought it was probably because of the old address selection alg=
orithms that didn=E2=80=99t distinguish ULA from GUA.
>=20
> Right=E2=80=A6 As near as I can tell, this statement pretty much makes =
Lorenzo's point.
>=20
> Owen
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
-
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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To: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
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=0A=0A=0A=0A<snip>=0A>>  Perhaps that needs to be fixed.=A0 I'm seeing abou=
t 14 million CPE =0A> devices (at least) that are open resolvers in the IPv=
4 universe.=A0 I want to make =0A> sure we are setting and specifying appro=
priate defaults instead of listening on =0A> [*:53]=0A>> =0A>>  - Jared=0A>=
 Agree entirely with the goal of closing down open resolvers, but=0A> manda=
ting a default blanket inbound firewall is a separate discussion IMHO.=0A> =
Mandating that services intended for local use must perform uRPF-like=0A> c=
hecks and only accept connections from local addresses would solve the=0A> =
problem without having to mandate a firewall.=0A>=A0=0A=0A+1=0A=0AThe CPE s=
hould definitely protect itself and the services it provides from abuse (i.=
e. the CPE is a host in this capacity, and is implementing host based firew=
alling). I think trying to protect downstream hosts or not is a different i=
ssue (when the CPE is performing routing functions).=0A=0ARegards,=0AMark.

From rajiva@cisco.com  Tue May 21 14:29:03 2013
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From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
To: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
Thread-Index: AQHOVl6PXrEmNrImuUWwWnq0QiCiSZkQaAMA//++cjA=
Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 21:28:56 +0000
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References: <B14A62A57AB87D45BB6DD7D9D2B78F0B116ACE79@xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com> <0176352E-5A18-4B4F-A4AB-4A4FEE792C17@puck.nether.net> <519B8E4D.6000703@globis.net> <1E0C817F-8933-4369-9144-7CB11F213D00@puck.nether.net> <519BD6C4.6050303@globis.net>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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Perhaps, we want to phrase it like this - By default, DNS Query should only=
 be processed, if received on the LAN-side interfaces. In other words, DNS =
Query should be ignored, if received on the WAN interface.

This doesn't necessarily mean 'firewalling', but can be done via 'firewalli=
ng'.

Incidentily, I didn't realize (until Jared's email went out) that my CPE ro=
uter was an open resolver, despite the firewall being enabled (on LAN and W=
AN interafces), and I had to explicitly put an ACL to drop any TCP/UDP port=
=3D53 packets coming on the WAN interface.

=20
Cheers,
Rajiv


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ray Hunter [mailto:v6ops@globis.net]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 4:19 PM
> To: Jared Mauch
> Cc: Rajiv Asati (rajiva); v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
>=20
> > Jared Mauch <mailto:jared@puck.nether.net>
> > 21 May 2013 22:05
> > On May 21, 2013, at 11:10 AM, Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net> wrote:
> >
> >> Jared Mauch wrote:
> >>> On May 21, 2013, at 9:14 AM, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) <rajiva@cisco.com>
> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> //If the service provider specifies one or more DNS resolvers in
> >>>> DHCP configuration options, the CE router SHOULD forward all
> >>>> non-local DNS queries unchanged to those servers.
> >>>>
> >>>> //
> >>>>
> >>>> s/server/resolver
> >>> One more nit here, a CPE device providing DNS proxy MUST NOT listen
> to the WAN interface by default.  This poses a risk for DNS amplification
> attacks.  Right now about 46% of the IPs listed in the OpenResolverProjec=
t
> are CPE devices that respond on the WAN interface.
> >>>
> >>> - Jared
> >> Rather than simply not binding to the WAN interface, shouldn't any
> >> CPE hosting a DNS server or any other process providing services
> >> intended for use exclusively by local nodes really be checking the
> >> sanity of the source address AND the interface on which the request
> >> packet is arriving ("inside" or "outside")?
> >
> > If it's doing DNS PROXY, it should only listen to the address it's adve=
rtising
> to the hosts that it routes on behalf of, and not those that are part of =
a ::/0
> default range.
> The point is that your suggested mitigation measure is not enough on its
> own. If I'm an attacker performing an amplification attack, I don't care =
about
> receiving the responses. It's simple enough to inject UDP packets with
> spoofed source addresses. Not everyone on every remote site has effective
> uRPF or ingress filters deployed, so IMHO the service/CPE must also
> perform this uRPF type function itself locally.
> >> I don't see any requirements text in Section 4.5 of
> >> draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-12 that states whether a firewall is enabled
> >> by default, so the inside address of the CPE might also be
> >> addressable and reachable from off-site hosts. The text does say
> >> "ought to" and "expected to" but that ain't a requirement.
> >
> > Perhaps that needs to be fixed.  I'm seeing about 14 million CPE
> > devices (at least) that are open resolvers in the IPv4 universe.  I
> > want to make sure we are setting and specifying appropriate defaults
> > instead of listening on [*:53]
> >
> > - Jared
> Agree entirely with the goal of closing down open resolvers, but mandatin=
g
> a default blanket inbound firewall is a separate discussion IMHO.
> Mandating that services intended for local use must perform uRPF-like
> checks and only accept connections from local addresses would solve the
> problem without having to mandate a firewall.
>=20
> regards,
> RayH

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From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
To: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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Ted,

Good Q. The answer is - it is valid to have just LLA only on WAN interface =
or IP unnumbered WAN interface of the CPE router.=20

Also, it is possible that a broadband network design may have the GUA assig=
ned on the WAN interface is not part of the subscriber/BNG session.  But th=
is is a corner case.

Cheers,
Rajiv


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Lemon [mailto:Ted.Lemon@nominum.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 10:36 AM
> To: Rajiv Asati (rajiva)
> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
>=20
> On May 21, 2013, at 9:14 AM, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) <rajiva@cisco.com> wrot=
e:
> > Should it use the IPv6 address assigned to its WAN interface (which is
> > to be used for CPE management, really) via DHCPv6 IA_NA or SLAAC, or
> > the address assigned to its LAN interface via DHCPv6 PD ?
>=20
> This doesn't make a lot of sense to me.   Why wouldn't it always use a so=
urce
> address that's configured on the interface on which it is transmitting th=
e
> packet?


From rajiva@cisco.com  Tue May 21 14:59:25 2013
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From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>, "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 21:59:17 +0000
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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First, it is important to specify the DNSv6 behavior in the rfc6204bis draf=
t.=20

Second,=20

> >>> IMO, the default behavior of the CE router would be to use default
> >>> address selection as described in RFC 6724. Since 6204bis (and RFC
> >>> 6204) requires the CE router to be an IPv6 node per RFC 6434, RFC
> >>> 6434 requires address selection per RFC 3484, and RFC 6724 obsoletes
> >>> RFC 3484, I think this is covered.

I don't think it is.=20

Neither RFC6204 nor 6204bis include RFC 6434 as a normative or informative =
reference.=20
Moreover, RFC6724 wouldn't provide a deterministic behavior to select one o=
r the other address in case of DNS proxy. Additionally, it gets murky since=
 the CPE WAN IPv6 address may or may not be part of BNG session.=20

> >> It is not at all unlikely that a provider would, e.g. design their
> >> network with one subset of their allocation used for management of
> >> CPE devices while using another subset for assigning customer
> >> addresses for general customer use. My understanding of RFC 6724 is th=
at
> if the CPE were assigned (e.g.)
> >> 	2001:db8:1234::2 as a management address and
> >> 	2001:db8:9876::/48 for subscriber usage with the WAN link getting
> >> 	2001:db8:9876::2 with default gateway 2001:db8:9876::1, then It
> >> would be ambiguous as to which of 2001:db8:1234::2 or
> >> 2001:db8:9876::2 would be used to source traffic by default.

I agree with Owen. IMO, specifying the DNS proxy to use an address (it may =
well be the CPE router address on the LAN interface) from the DHCP-PD block=
 would provide a deterministic behavior. And DNS messages would certainly g=
et accounted for in the BNG subscriber session (as it should be).. =20

Cheers,
Rajiv


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen@delong.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:38 PM
> To: STARK, BARBARA H
> Cc: Rajiv Asati (rajiva); v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
>=20
>=20
> On May 21, 2013, at 8:31 AM, "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com> wrote:
>=20
> >
> >
> >>> IMO, the default behavior of the CE router would be to use default
> >>> address selection as described in RFC 6724. Since 6204bis (and RFC
> >>> 6204) requires the CE router to be an IPv6 node per RFC 6434, RFC
> >>> 6434 requires address selection per RFC 3484, and RFC 6724 obsoletes
> >>> RFC 3484, I think this is covered.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Technically true, but given the chain of RFCs you had to put together
> >> to make that point, restating it clearly here might not be such a bad =
thing,
> no?
> >
> > There are many, many cases where restating the obvious could be done.
> But doing so would result in a very long and effectively unusable RFC.
>=20
> True, but this isn't one of those cases.
>=20
> This is a case where the required chain of RFCs to arrive at the "obvious=
" is
> non-obvious and where restatement of the non-obvious (ideally with
> appropriate referential footnotes to the original RFCs) is brief and help=
ful.
>=20
> > In the absence of requirements that suggest otherwise, address selectio=
n
> per RFC 6724 from among addresses available for the interface that will b=
e
> used to send the packet is pretty obvious, in my book. I only provided th=
e
> chain to show that it was indeed covered by existing requirements.
>=20
> While I would agree with you, that statement doesn't actually address at
> least one aspect of the question.
>=20
> >>> Since the DNSv6 query is being sent out the WAN interface, I would
> >>> expect the CE router to select an address from among those it
> >>> considers appropriate for traffic that it originates and sends out
> >>> over that WAN interface. I would hope that access providers would
> >>> not be surprised by a CE router considering a globally scoped,
> >>> preferred, and valid address assigned to its WAN interface as being
> >>> appropriate for traffic that the CE router sends out over the WAN
> >>> interface. The idea that a CE router is supposed to interpret such
> >>> an address assigned to its WAN interface as being reserved for a
> >>> special purpose (CPE
> >>> management) strikes me as odd. If the access provider wants to
> >>> assign a special management address to the WAN interface, it would
> >>> probably be best to assign an address that would not end up being
> >>> the CE router's first pick for other traffic, per RFC 6724 guidance.
> >
> >> This incorporates a number of (not necessarily correct) assumptions
> >> about how things happen in the real world.
> >>
> >> It is not at all unlikely that a provider would, e.g. design their
> >> network with one subset of their allocation used for management of
> >> CPE devices while using another subset for assigning customer
> >> addresses for general customer use. My understanding of RFC 6724 is th=
at
> if the CPE were assigned (e.g.)
> >> 	2001:db8:1234::2 as a management address and
> >> 	2001:db8:9876::/48 for subscriber usage with the WAN link getting
> >> 	2001:db8:9876::2 with default gateway 2001:db8:9876::1, then It
> >> would be ambiguous as to which of 2001:db8:1234::2 or
> >> 2001:db8:9876::2 would be used to source traffic by default.
> >>
> >> Owen
> >
>=20
> [quote level error corrected on the next paragraph, I believe this came f=
rom
> Barbara Stark] but it was quoted at the level to suggest I said it.
>=20
> > From the perspective of the access network, the dangerous assumption
> would be to think that a generic "RFC 6204" or "6204bis" CE router device
> (i.e., no affiliation with any access provider, not designed per eRouter
> requirements, BBF TR-124, HGI home gateway requirements, or any other
> such org's requirements), would treat a globally scoped, preferred, and
> valid IPv6 address assigned to its WAN interface as anything other than f=
air
> game for all traffic that the CE router originates and sends out that WAN
> interface. To think that such an IPv6 address could be provided to a gene=
ric
> CE router, and the CE router would treat it as some sort of special "for
> management purposes only" address is a really, really, bad assumption.
> IMO, my assumption that this is a bad assumption is very well-grounded in
> how things happen in the real world.
>=20
> In the case of a generic router, I'm inclined to agree with you. However,=
 that
> doesn't mean that such will not happen.
> In fact, the way this will most likely happen is an SP that mostly provid=
es
> routers to customers and forgets that the customer routers that they didn=
't
> provide may not behave in this particular way or even remember after a fe=
w
> years that this behavior is peculiar.
>=20
> > If an access provider wants to be sure of what a CE router will do with
> addresses that it is given, then that access provider had better have som=
e
> way of making sure that CE router meets additional requirements specified
> external to IETF. If the provider you describe has some idea of what they=
're
> doing, they will have specified requirements for CPE they want to manage;
> requirements would include such details as protocol for management, how
> to set up a management interface, credentials for management, etc. If the
> access provider you describe above is assigning all those addresses to so=
me
> generic RFC 6204 / 6204bis CE router, that can have no assumed knowledge
> of management interfaces or protocols, and the provider is expecting thos=
e
> addresses to be used for the purposes you describe... well, that's just t=
oo
> bad. IETF RFCs are not cures for stupidity.
> >
> > An access provider who allows subscribers to use generic, unidentified
> "6204/6204bis" CE routers also cannot assume that DNS queries coming from
> that subscriber's link will originate from an address assigned to the CE
> router's WAN interface. If the access provider consciously allows for suc=
h
> routers, I don't see why the access provider would care whether DNS
> queries originate from an address of a delegated prefix or an address
> assigned to the CE router's WAN interface.
>=20
> Allows is always an interesting term in this context.
>=20
> Owen


From rajiva@cisco.com  Tue May 21 15:11:41 2013
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From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>, Erik Kline <ek@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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Date: Tue, 21 May 2013 22:11:34 +0000
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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I like Erik's proposal, since it would nicely plug the hole that Jared poin=
ted out and also provide the source address to be used

> The problem with this approach is that you are assuming that the provider
> always grants at least n+1 /64s in the PD where n is the number of subnet=
s
> needed on the client side.
>=20
> Given that some ISPs are so misguided as to dole out /60s (or even less),=
 I
> don't think you can take that for granted.

I don't see a non-trivial issue with applying Erik's proposal even if /64 w=
as provided as DHCP-PD. After all, the CPE router must have to assign at le=
ast one IP address on its LAN interface.=20

> What do you gain from all this extra complexity that you don't get from
> DNSSEC?

I see DNSSEC being orthogonal since it is not about specifying which IP add=
ress to use as the source address, or whether or not to process the incomin=
g DNS messages.
=20

Cheers,
Rajiv


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen@delong.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:29 PM
> To: Erik Kline
> Cc: Rajiv Asati (rajiva); v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
>=20
>=20
> On May 21, 2013, at 7:39 AM, Erik Kline <ek@google.com> wrote:
>=20
> >> Should it use the IPv6 address assigned to its WAN interface (which
> >> is to be used for CPE management, really) via DHCPv6 IA_NA or SLAAC,
> >> or the address assigned to its LAN interface via DHCPv6 PD ?
> >
> > If I were implementing one, I would do the following:
> >
> >    [1]  reserve one /64 from the PD for internal use by the resolver
> >
>=20
> The problem with this approach is that you are assuming that the provider
> always grants at least n+1 /64s in the PD where n is the number of subnet=
s
> needed on the client side.
>=20
> Given that some ISPs are so misguided as to dole out /60s (or even less),=
 I
> don't think you can take that for granted.
>=20
> >    [2]  the DNS proxy would maintain a small set of keys, rotating
> > periodically
> >
> >    [3]  when generating/forwarding a request, take an
> > HMAC(Key_current, "normalized query parameters")
> >
> >    [4]  extract 64bits from a consistent portion of the HMAC, and use
> > that as the lower 64 if the upstream request
> >
> >    [5]  when a response arrives, compute:
> >
> >                (a) HMAC(Key_current, "normalized query parameters"), an=
d
> >                (b) HMAC(Key_previous, "normalized query parameters")
> >
> >          and verify that the destination address (that reaches the dns
> > proxy in the CPE) matches the reserved prefix in [1] plus the
> > consistently extracted 64bits from either [5a] or [5b].
> >
> > You could even pull 16 more bits from the HMAC to use as the source
> > port of the query (and hence destination port of the reponse) and
> > validate that as well.
>=20
> What do you gain from all this extra complexity that you don't get from
> DNSSEC?
>=20
> Owen


From marka@isc.org  Tue May 21 17:55:47 2013
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To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
References: <B14A62A57AB87D45BB6DD7D9D2B78F0B116ACDFD@xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com> <B14A62A57AB87D45BB6DD7D9D2B78F0B116ACE79@xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com> <CAAedzxrPofQBsW9xqfRiV=RwifbiMmjMCE+1E5RYZe-yWwjUgQ@mail.gmail.com> <55BF669B-A2A6-41C3-B520-D039FF8C8EA2@delong.com> <B14A62A57AB87D45BB6DD7D9D2B78F0B116AE454@xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com>
In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 21 May 2013 22:11:34 +0000." <B14A62A57AB87D45BB6DD7D9D2B78F0B116AE454@xmb-rcd-x06.cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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By default it offers recursion to local clients and returns REFUSED
to remote clients that it can't answer from local zone content.

If a CPE is proxying then it need to present as many address to the
internal clients as is proxing external nameservers.  It is long
past the time when a CPE can offer a single address for address
family.  DNS clients need to be able to actuately determine the
capabilities of the servers being proxied.  The applies to both
IPv4 and IPv6.

-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

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From: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Hi, Owen


There is a subtlety to the language here that is important.

SCOPE has a specific meaning WRT IPv6 addresses. While ULAs are "Local" USE=
 addresses, they are not Local SCOPE addresses. They are most definitely gl=
obal scope addresses as that is meant in IPv6.

I don't see a reference to "local scope" in RFC 4193 section 1. However, ev=
en if there is, we should not duplicate that error here.
[Bing] As replied to Lorenzo and Erik. I'll update this accordingly. Thanks=
 for your explanation.

Suggested replacement text: "Note that, while ULAs are global-scope address=
es, they do not have global reachability. Therefore, address selection algo=
rithms distinguish between ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast Address) [RFC 6724]=
".
[Bing] As said above, I think the sentence would be good if delete "while U=
LAs are global-scope addresses".

Why? ULAs ARE global scope addresses. While they are not globally routed, t=
hey are of global scope. Currently there are only two defined scopes in IPv=
6... { Global , Link-Local }. There was a third scope (Site-Local), but tho=
se were deprecated prior to the creation of ULA.
[Bing] That was my misunderstanding, I've replied to Lorenzo.

I'm sorry, but this is just silly. SLAAC is extremely lightweight in its mi=
nimal implementation and if they self-generate a ULA, your "ad-hoc" network=
 is going to need something (probably heavier) to allow the nodes to find e=
ach other. Indeed, once you implement enough of the ND process for two node=
s to find each other even for link-local addressing, there's really not muc=
h left to complete the minimal implementation of SLAAC. I think this is an =
extremely poor use case and not one which should be deemed acceptable. Sens=
ors are getting smarter and more capable. Existing sensors can and do (in m=
any cases) implement SLAAC.
[Bing] Please see the last mail to Lorenzo. Surely it should support SLAAC,=
 and the draft clearly stated that.

Best regards,
Bing

--_000_8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D728171nkgeml506mbxchi_
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ak-word;-webkit-nbsp-mode: space;-webkit-line-break: after-white-space">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi, Owen<o=
:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">There is a subtlety to the lang=
uage here that is important.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">SCOPE has a specific meaning WR=
T IPv6 addresses. While ULAs are &quot;Local&quot; USE addresses, they are =
not Local SCOPE addresses. They are most definitely global scope addresses =
as that is meant in IPv6.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I don't see a reference to &quo=
t;local scope&quot; in RFC 4193 section 1. However, even if there is, we sh=
ould not duplicate that error here.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
As replied to Lorenzo and Erik. I&#8217;ll update this accordingly. Thanks =
for your explanation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt;z-index:auto">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Suggested replacement text: &qu=
ot;Note that, while ULAs are global-scope addresses, they do not have globa=
l reachability. Therefore, address selection algorithms distinguish between=
 ULAs and GUA (Global Unicast Address) [RFC
 6724]&quot;.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div style=3D"margin-left:19.2pt">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
As said above, I think the sentence would be good if delete &#8220;while UL=
As are global-scope addresses&#8221;.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Why? ULAs ARE global scope addr=
esses. While they are not globally routed, they are of global scope. Curren=
tly there are only two defined scopes in IPv6&#8230; { Global , Link-Local =
}. There was a third scope (Site-Local), but
 those were deprecated prior to the creation of ULA.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
That was my misunderstanding, I&#8217;ve replied to Lorenzo.</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I'm sorry, but this is just sil=
ly. SLAAC is extremely lightweight in its minimal implementation and if the=
y self-generate a ULA, your &quot;ad-hoc&quot; network is going to need som=
ething (probably heavier) to allow the nodes to
 find each other. Indeed, once you implement enough of the ND process for t=
wo nodes to find each other even for link-local addressing, there's really =
not much left to complete the minimal implementation of SLAAC. I think this=
 is an extremely poor use case and
 not one which should be deemed acceptable. Sensors are getting smarter and=
 more capable. Existing sensors can and do (in many cases) implement SLAAC.=
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
Please see the last mail to Lorenzo. Surely it should support SLAAC, and th=
e draft clearly stated that.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Best re=
gards,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Bing<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D728171nkgeml506mbxchi_--

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From: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 07:06:42 +0100
To: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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On 22 May 2013, at 01:55, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:

>=20
> By default it offers recursion to local clients and returns REFUSED
> to remote clients that it can't answer from local zone content.
>=20
> If a CPE is proxying then it need to present as many address to the
> internal clients as is proxing external nameservers.  It is long
> past the time when a CPE can offer a single address for address
> family.  DNS clients need to be able to actuately determine the
> capabilities of the servers being proxied.  The applies to both
> IPv4 and IPv6.

If adding text for this, is it also worth nothing that future CPE's may act a=
s authoritative name servers for domains used to refer to devices in the hom=
e? If so, the configuration advice wrt DNS amplification attacks is more lik=
ely to need to be similar to that of an enterprise.

Tim=

From Carl.Wuyts@technicolor.com  Wed May 22 02:24:50 2013
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From: Wuyts Carl <Carl.Wuyts@technicolor.com>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>, Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>, Jared Mauch <jared@puck.nether.net>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 11:23:55 +0200
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Well, I wouldn't be too sure about the presence of firewall on the CPE.=20
At the last IPv6 congress in Paris (March 2013), one of the vendors on stag=
e was promoting a more "open" approach, so no stateful firewall on it.

regs

Carl Wuyts




-----Original Message-----
From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of M=
ark Smith
Sent: dinsdag 21 mei 2013 23:25
To: Ray Hunter; Jared Mauch
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !





<snip>
>>  Perhaps that needs to be fixed.=A0 I'm seeing about 14 million CPE
> devices (at least) that are open resolvers in the IPv4 universe.=A0 I=20
> want to make sure we are setting and specifying appropriate defaults=20
> instead of listening on [*:53]
>>=20
>>  - Jared
> Agree entirely with the goal of closing down open resolvers, but=20
> mandating a default blanket inbound firewall is a separate discussion IMH=
O.
> Mandating that services intended for local use must perform uRPF-like=20
> checks and only accept connections from local addresses would solve=20
> the problem without having to mandate a firewall.
>=A0

+1

The CPE should definitely protect itself and the services it provides from =
abuse (i.e. the CPE is a host in this capacity, and is implementing host ba=
sed firewalling). I think trying to protect downstream hosts or not is a di=
fferent issue (when the CPE is performing routing functions).

Regards,
Mark.
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From Carl.Wuyts@technicolor.com  Wed May 22 02:28:21 2013
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From: Wuyts Carl <Carl.Wuyts@technicolor.com>
To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>, Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 11:27:01 +0200
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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Yes, it is valid to have LLA only on WAN interface, in fact, often used wit=
h e.g. PPP deployments.
Depending on what you'd like to do with WAN management, you might want to i=
ntroduce unnumbered indeed, but as some (lots of in fact) customers still r=
ely on IPv4 for management purposes, there's often no need to have IPv6 on =
WAN or unnumbered WAN.

Carl Wuyts





-----Original Message-----
From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of R=
ajiv Asati (rajiva)
Sent: dinsdag 21 mei 2013 23:36
To: Ted Lemon
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !

Ted,

Good Q. The answer is - it is valid to have just LLA only on WAN interface =
or IP unnumbered WAN interface of the CPE router.=20

Also, it is possible that a broadband network design may have the GUA assig=
ned on the WAN interface is not part of the subscriber/BNG session.  But th=
is is a corner case.

Cheers,
Rajiv


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ted Lemon [mailto:Ted.Lemon@nominum.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 10:36 AM
> To: Rajiv Asati (rajiva)
> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
>=20
> On May 21, 2013, at 9:14 AM, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) <rajiva@cisco.com> wrot=
e:
> > Should it use the IPv6 address assigned to its WAN interface (which=20
> > is to be used for CPE management, really) via DHCPv6 IA_NA or SLAAC,=20
> > or the address assigned to its LAN interface via DHCPv6 PD ?
>=20
> This doesn't make a lot of sense to me.   Why wouldn't it always use a so=
urce
> address that's configured on the interface on which it is transmitting=20
> the packet?

_______________________________________________
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From Carl.Wuyts@technicolor.com  Wed May 22 02:29:48 2013
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From: Wuyts Carl <Carl.Wuyts@technicolor.com>
To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>,  Erik Kline <ek@google.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2013 11:28:38 +0200
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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Whatever is being decided here, take into account that all variants between=
 /64 and /48 as ia_pd length exist in the real world.
And yes, I know, /64 is not ideal, but it is in place today so should not i=
gnored.

Carl Wuyts





-----Original Message-----
From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of R=
ajiv Asati (rajiva)
Sent: woensdag 22 mei 2013 0:12
To: Owen DeLong; Erik Kline
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !

I like Erik's proposal, since it would nicely plug the hole that Jared poin=
ted out and also provide the source address to be used

> The problem with this approach is that you are assuming that the=20
> provider always grants at least n+1 /64s in the PD where n is the=20
> number of subnets needed on the client side.
>=20
> Given that some ISPs are so misguided as to dole out /60s (or even=20
> less), I don't think you can take that for granted.

I don't see a non-trivial issue with applying Erik's proposal even if /64 w=
as provided as DHCP-PD. After all, the CPE router must have to assign at le=
ast one IP address on its LAN interface.=20

> What do you gain from all this extra complexity that you don't get=20
> from DNSSEC?

I see DNSSEC being orthogonal since it is not about specifying which IP add=
ress to use as the source address, or whether or not to process the incomin=
g DNS messages.
=20

Cheers,
Rajiv


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen@delong.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:29 PM
> To: Erik Kline
> Cc: Rajiv Asati (rajiva); v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
>=20
>=20
> On May 21, 2013, at 7:39 AM, Erik Kline <ek@google.com> wrote:
>=20
> >> Should it use the IPv6 address assigned to its WAN interface (which=20
> >> is to be used for CPE management, really) via DHCPv6 IA_NA or=20
> >> SLAAC, or the address assigned to its LAN interface via DHCPv6 PD ?
> >
> > If I were implementing one, I would do the following:
> >
> >    [1]  reserve one /64 from the PD for internal use by the resolver
> >
>=20
> The problem with this approach is that you are assuming that the=20
> provider always grants at least n+1 /64s in the PD where n is the=20
> number of subnets needed on the client side.
>=20
> Given that some ISPs are so misguided as to dole out /60s (or even=20
> less), I don't think you can take that for granted.
>=20
> >    [2]  the DNS proxy would maintain a small set of keys, rotating=20
> > periodically
> >
> >    [3]  when generating/forwarding a request, take an=20
> > HMAC(Key_current, "normalized query parameters")
> >
> >    [4]  extract 64bits from a consistent portion of the HMAC, and=20
> > use that as the lower 64 if the upstream request
> >
> >    [5]  when a response arrives, compute:
> >
> >                (a) HMAC(Key_current, "normalized query parameters"), an=
d
> >                (b) HMAC(Key_previous, "normalized query parameters")
> >
> >          and verify that the destination address (that reaches the=20
> > dns proxy in the CPE) matches the reserved prefix in [1] plus the=20
> > consistently extracted 64bits from either [5a] or [5b].
> >
> > You could even pull 16 more bits from the HMAC to use as the source=20
> > port of the query (and hence destination port of the reponse) and=20
> > validate that as well.
>=20
> What do you gain from all this extra complexity that you don't get=20
> from DNSSEC?
>=20
> Owen

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Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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On May 21, 2013, at 6:11 PM, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) <rajiva@cisco.com> =
wrote:

> I like Erik's proposal, since it would nicely plug the hole that Jared =
pointed out and also provide the source address to be used
>=20

It goes well beyond the simplest and ideal solution to the stated =
problem=85

>> The problem with this approach is that you are assuming that the =
provider
>> always grants at least n+1 /64s in the PD where n is the number of =
subnets
>> needed on the client side.
>>=20
>> Given that some ISPs are so misguided as to dole out /60s (or even =
less), I
>> don't think you can take that for granted.
>=20
> I don't see a non-trivial issue with applying Erik's proposal even if =
/64 was provided as DHCP-PD. After all, the CPE router must have to =
assign at least one IP address on its LAN interface.=20
>=20

But it is frequently rotating that address and requires that the entire =
/64 be available for cryptographic hashing of the request in question. =
It makes no allowance for collision with an address in use for another =
host. As such, his proposal requires the dedication of an entire /64 =
that doesn't actually have any addresses devoted to other purposes.

>> What do you gain from all this extra complexity that you don't get =
from
>> DNSSEC?
>=20
> I see DNSSEC being orthogonal since it is not about specifying which =
IP address to use as the source address, or whether or not to process =
the incoming DNS messages.

But the whole point of his crypto-munging of the source address is to =
confirm that the reply is associated with an actual pending request and =
to make it difficult to guess the right address to send a forged reply =
to. Since DNSSEC eliminates the possibility of a forged reply, I don't =
see a benefit to all the introduced complexity.

Owen

>=20
>=20
> Cheers,
> Rajiv
>=20
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen@delong.com]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 21, 2013 3:29 PM
>> To: Erik Kline
>> Cc: Rajiv Asati (rajiva); v6ops@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
>>=20
>>=20
>> On May 21, 2013, at 7:39 AM, Erik Kline <ek@google.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>>> Should it use the IPv6 address assigned to its WAN interface (which
>>>> is to be used for CPE management, really) via DHCPv6 IA_NA or =
SLAAC,
>>>> or the address assigned to its LAN interface via DHCPv6 PD ?
>>>=20
>>> If I were implementing one, I would do the following:
>>>=20
>>>   [1]  reserve one /64 from the PD for internal use by the resolver
>>>=20
>>=20
>> The problem with this approach is that you are assuming that the =
provider
>> always grants at least n+1 /64s in the PD where n is the number of =
subnets
>> needed on the client side.
>>=20
>> Given that some ISPs are so misguided as to dole out /60s (or even =
less), I
>> don't think you can take that for granted.
>>=20
>>>   [2]  the DNS proxy would maintain a small set of keys, rotating
>>> periodically
>>>=20
>>>   [3]  when generating/forwarding a request, take an
>>> HMAC(Key_current, "normalized query parameters")
>>>=20
>>>   [4]  extract 64bits from a consistent portion of the HMAC, and use
>>> that as the lower 64 if the upstream request
>>>=20
>>>   [5]  when a response arrives, compute:
>>>=20
>>>               (a) HMAC(Key_current, "normalized query parameters"), =
and
>>>               (b) HMAC(Key_previous, "normalized query parameters")
>>>=20
>>>         and verify that the destination address (that reaches the =
dns
>>> proxy in the CPE) matches the reserved prefix in [1] plus the
>>> consistently extracted 64bits from either [5a] or [5b].
>>>=20
>>> You could even pull 16 more bits from the HMAC to use as the source
>>> port of the query (and hence destination port of the reponse) and
>>> validate that as well.
>>=20
>> What do you gain from all this extra complexity that you don't get =
from
>> DNSSEC?
>>=20
>> Owen


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From: "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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> First, it is important to specify the DNSv6 behavior in the rfc6204bis dr=
aft.
[This is wrt specifying which address the CE router chooses to use to origi=
nate DNSv6 messages to some DNS server out in the great wide WAN.]

I disagree. But clearly, I haven't done a good job at explaining why, so le=
t me try again.
First of all, let me start by making sure we're all working from the same, =
most recent draft, and not the several-year-old version the original email =
of this thread provided a link to. Please refer to:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis=20
Please particularly note:
   "G-1:  An IPv6 CE router is an IPv6 node according to the IPv6 Node Requ=
irements [RFC6434] specification."

My basic premise is that the access provider who wants to allow a generic, =
unidentified 6204/6204bis CE router to get IPv6 connectivity from their acc=
ess network cannot assume that they know what IPv6 address the CE router wi=
ll use to source any particular message to "Internet" destinations. If this=
 access provider throws half a dozen IA_NA addresses, multiple IA_PD, and s=
everal A=3D1 prefixes in RA messages at this CE router, with all marked as =
"preferred" and "valid" with no "more specific routes", then that access pr=
ovider cannot expect to have any knowledge of what IP address the CE router=
 will use to source messages to DNS servers, NTP servers, or most anything =
else. Even if the access network provides just one IA_NA and one /56 IA_PD =
(for example), the access provider cannot expect to have knowledge of what =
IP address the CE router will use as a source address for any particular me=
ssage. This CE router may be provided by an enterprise for work-at-home and=
 have all sorts of special stuff in it (special DNS server, enterprise-spec=
ified management interface, etc.). The access provider has no clue about an=
y special behavior of the CE router.=20

If an ISP tells its users that a generic 6204bis-compliant CE router (IPv6 =
Ready) can be used to connect through it to the Internet, that ISP is impli=
citly saying that any "preferred" and "valid" A=3D1 RA prefixes, IA_NA addr=
esses, and IA_PD prefixes that the access network supplies and that don't h=
ave "more specific routes" associated with them, will connect to the Intern=
et. If this isn't true, then the ISP has no business telling their users th=
at generic CE routers (off-the-shelf D-Link, Belkin, Linksys, etc.) will wo=
rk on the ISP's network.

If the ISP wants to care whether the CE router uses an IA_NA address vs an =
address from the IA_PD for connecting to DNS, NTP, SIP, Dynamic DNS, or any=
thing else out on the Internet, then 6204 and 6204bis (as currently written=
) CE routers cannot be expected to work on that ISP's network. If there is =
some huge ISP (or group of ISPs) who wants to care what address is selected=
 and knows exactly what it is they need and want, then let that ISP come fo=
rward and say so. And say exactly what they want and why they need to be sp=
ecial and why they need IETF RFCs with requirements written just for their =
network. [Note the work being done in v6ops to specify what 3GPP devices ne=
ed to do -- this is an example of a set of ISPs who made the case for speci=
al requirements; RFC 6204 could also be considered such a case, since it wa=
s written to describe devices that could connect to either CableLabs-define=
d or BBF-defined access networks; other ISPs have chosen to provide additiv=
e-to-RFC6204 requirements external to IETF, such as CableLabs eRouter specs=
, BBF TR-124 Issue 3, and RFPs issued by ISPs -- but they do not expect the=
 generic CE router vendors of the world to follow these more specific requi=
rements which were written more for devices procured by ISPs.]=20

I truly do not care whether the 6204bis-defined CE router that has an IA_NA=
 (preferred and valid) address and IA_PD (preferred and valid) uses one or =
the other of these to source DNS queries (or NTP, or connect to a SIP serve=
r, or Dynamic DNS, or...). If an ISP wants to supply preferred and valid IA=
_NA addresses to a generic CE router bought off the shelf at a local electr=
onics store, and then not allow that IA_NA address to be used to query a DN=
S server... well, I do not support such an ISP's attempts to add complexity=
 to these off-the-shelf devices by trying to give that IA_NA special meanin=
g specific only to that ISP's network.=20

Again, I disagree that any language needs to be added to 6204bis to force s=
ource address selection.=20
Barbara


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From: GangChen <phdgang@gmail.com>
To: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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wg,

The draft contains useful discussions to help shaping IPv6 profile on
mobile phone. I support WGLC. The below comments are only for
discussion/consult/clarification.

1) section 2.2 Neighbor Discovery

Once we discuss NS/NA, I'm struggling with the usage of those two
messages. The draft has very good description about notes on
point-to-point interface. The texts teach me that neighbor discovery
and NUD may be unnecessary, beacause the mobile phone doesn't rely on
NS/NA to discover neighbor and NUD is desirable to be achieved through
uppper layer guarantee. In some degree, audience may have impressions
mobile phones can eliminate NS/NA to reduce additional signalling. I'm
not sure if we could give those recommendations. Otherwise, it maybe
helpful if the draft can clarify the usages of NS/NA to a mobile
phone.

In regard to NUD using upper layer protocol, I have observed some apps
normally do keepalive/beacon message to fresh the link. Could those
messages be a tool to maintain NUD?

2) I guess both section 2.3 and 2.4 cover SLACC. Reading the contents,
I feel section 2.4 seems a sub-section of 2.3. It may be good to
assign a proper section number.

In section 2.4, there is texts "as each delegated prefix is unique".
May I suggest to reword "delegated" to
"advertised/configured/assigned" to avoid the ambiguity with DHCP-PD

3) section 2.5
It described the case of split mobile station. I guess it may help if
the draft adds a example for MT. USB dongle can be a MT.You may add
"(MT, e.g., a USB dongle)", like you did for TE. That also reminds me
"a mobile phone handset" used in the section of Abbreviations. Should
it be proper to use a USB dongle for the example. A mobile phone
handset seems like a mobile station, which is comprised of MT and TE.

4)section 2.7

If i remember coorectly, 3GPP label Privacy Extensions as the level of
"MAY". This section use "should" and "may" in the same paragraph. I
guess we may could align the statement(even that not have normative
meaning)

5)section 2.10

One typo maybe there. "me" should be corrected.

These options me be useful for cellular
                      ^^
6)section 2.11

DNS server address can also be provisioned through PCO option. Should
it be mentioned in this section?

Best Regards

Gang


2013/5/20, Fred Baker (fred) <fred@cisco.com>:
> The working group last call for this draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis announced
> last week continues for another week. Please feel free to comment on it.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

From jouni.nospam@gmail.com  Thu May 23 00:15:56 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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Hi Gang,

Thanks for the review. See my initial comments inline.

On May 23, 2013, at 9:29 AM, GangChen <phdgang@gmail.com> wrote:

> wg,
> 
> The draft contains useful discussions to help shaping IPv6 profile on
> mobile phone. I support WGLC. The below comments are only for
> discussion/consult/clarification.
> 
> 1) section 2.2 Neighbor Discovery
> 
> Once we discuss NS/NA, I'm struggling with the usage of those two
> messages. The draft has very good description about notes on
> point-to-point interface. The texts teach me that neighbor discovery
> and NUD may be unnecessary, beacause the mobile phone doesn't rely on
> NS/NA to discover neighbor and NUD is desirable to be achieved through
> uppper layer guarantee. In some degree, audience may have impressions
> mobile phones can eliminate NS/NA to reduce additional signalling. I'm
> not sure if we could give those recommendations. Otherwise, it maybe
> helpful if the draft can clarify the usages of NS/NA to a mobile
> phone.

So you want even more NS/NA text? What else needs to be added? So far we
got the following:

 o no address resolution.. due no link-layer addresses
 o cellular host must support NUD (which then includes both
   upper layer mechanisms and the unicast NS/NA one)
 o DAD is not needed (and can be turned off using RFC4861 configuration
   mechanisms) but causes no harm either if done.

You can skip periodic unicast NS/NA NUD whenever you get the reachability
confirmation from the upper layers. I do not see how this leads to possible
elimination of NS/NA?

> In regard to NUD using upper layer protocol, I have observed some apps
> normally do keepalive/beacon message to fresh the link. Could those
> messages be a tool to maintain NUD?

Yes.. assuming the upper layer traffic is there all the time and
bidirectional. That does not justify removal of explicit NUD using
unicast NS/NA.

> 2) I guess both section 2.3 and 2.4 cover SLACC. Reading the contents,
> I feel section 2.4 seems a sub-section of 2.3. It may be good to
> assign a proper section number.

Ok. I'll give this a though.

> In section 2.4, there is texts "as each delegated prefix is unique".
> May I suggest to reword "delegated" to
> "advertised/configured/assigned" to avoid the ambiguity with DHCP-PD

Right. This was already agreed after Ales' review.

> 3) section 2.5
> It described the case of split mobile station. I guess it may help if
> the draft adds a example for MT. USB dongle can be a MT.You may add
> "(MT, e.g., a USB dongle)", like you did for TE. That also reminds me
> "a mobile phone handset" used in the section of Abbreviations. Should
> it be proper to use a USB dongle for the example. A mobile phone
> handset seems like a mobile station, which is comprised of MT and TE.

Ok. I'll draft something around this.

> 
> 4)section 2.7
> 
> If i remember coorectly, 3GPP label Privacy Extensions as the level of
> "MAY". This section use "should" and "may" in the same paragraph. I
> guess we may could align the statement(even that not have normative
> meaning)

Right. 3GPP has both "may" and "can" for privacy extensions, depending
on the specification (i.e. 23401 say may use mechanism defined in 23221,
which then says can use rfc4941). OK to lower the requirement language
here.

> 5)section 2.10
> 
> One typo maybe there. "me" should be corrected.
> 
> These options me be useful for cellular
>                      ^^

Ack.

> 6)section 2.11
> 
> DNS server address can also be provisioned through PCO option. Should
> it be mentioned in this section?

We say that the host may learn the DNS server address by lower layer
means.. the IP stack has no idea of PCOs and we have on purpose kept
the term PCO out of the document.

Thanks.

- Jouni



> 
> Best Regards
> 
> Gang
> 
> 
> 2013/5/20, Fred Baker (fred) <fred@cisco.com>:
>> The working group last call for this draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis announced
>> last week continues for another week. Please feel free to comment on it.
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>> 
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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Date: Thu, 23 May 2013 16:10:04 +0800
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From: GangChen <phdgang@gmail.com>
To: Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis WGLC
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2013/5/23, Jouni Korhonen <jouni.nospam@gmail.com>:
>
> Hi Gang,
>
> Thanks for the review. See my initial comments inline.
>
> On May 23, 2013, at 9:29 AM, GangChen <phdgang@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> wg,
>>
>> The draft contains useful discussions to help shaping IPv6 profile on
>> mobile phone. I support WGLC. The below comments are only for
>> discussion/consult/clarification.
>>
>> 1) section 2.2 Neighbor Discovery
>>
>> Once we discuss NS/NA, I'm struggling with the usage of those two
>> messages. The draft has very good description about notes on
>> point-to-point interface. The texts teach me that neighbor discovery
>> and NUD may be unnecessary, beacause the mobile phone doesn't rely on
>> NS/NA to discover neighbor and NUD is desirable to be achieved through
>> uppper layer guarantee. In some degree, audience may have impressions
>> mobile phones can eliminate NS/NA to reduce additional signalling. I'm
>> not sure if we could give those recommendations. Otherwise, it maybe
>> helpful if the draft can clarify the usages of NS/NA to a mobile
>> phone.
>
> So you want even more NS/NA text? What else needs to be added? So far we
> got the following:
>
>  o no address resolution.. due no link-layer addresses
>  o cellular host must support NUD (which then includes both
>    upper layer mechanisms and the unicast NS/NA one)
>  o DAD is not needed (and can be turned off using RFC4861 configuration
>    mechanisms) but causes no harm either if done.
>
> You can skip periodic unicast NS/NA NUD whenever you get the reachability
> confirmation from the upper layers. I do not see how this leads to possible
> elimination of NS/NA?

I don't see the necessity to eliminate NS/NS messages as well.
Whereas, it may desirable to mitigate the messages transmission on the
air. The draft may clarify:
1. no address resolution(already in the section)
2. no DAD(shift the texts to the section)
3. restrain periodic NUD if there is upper-layer indication available
(clarify the point in the section)

BRs

Gang

>> In regard to NUD using upper layer protocol, I have observed some apps
>> normally do keepalive/beacon message to fresh the link. Could those
>> messages be a tool to maintain NUD?
>
> Yes.. assuming the upper layer traffic is there all the time and
> bidirectional. That does not justify removal of explicit NUD using
> unicast NS/NA.
>
>> 2) I guess both section 2.3 and 2.4 cover SLACC. Reading the contents,
>> I feel section 2.4 seems a sub-section of 2.3. It may be good to
>> assign a proper section number.
>
> Ok. I'll give this a though.
>
>> In section 2.4, there is texts "as each delegated prefix is unique".
>> May I suggest to reword "delegated" to
>> "advertised/configured/assigned" to avoid the ambiguity with DHCP-PD
>
> Right. This was already agreed after Ales' review.
>
>> 3) section 2.5
>> It described the case of split mobile station. I guess it may help if
>> the draft adds a example for MT. USB dongle can be a MT.You may add
>> "(MT, e.g., a USB dongle)", like you did for TE. That also reminds me
>> "a mobile phone handset" used in the section of Abbreviations. Should
>> it be proper to use a USB dongle for the example. A mobile phone
>> handset seems like a mobile station, which is comprised of MT and TE.
>
> Ok. I'll draft something around this.
>
>>
>> 4)section 2.7
>>
>> If i remember coorectly, 3GPP label Privacy Extensions as the level of
>> "MAY". This section use "should" and "may" in the same paragraph. I
>> guess we may could align the statement(even that not have normative
>> meaning)
>
> Right. 3GPP has both "may" and "can" for privacy extensions, depending
> on the specification (i.e. 23401 say may use mechanism defined in 23221,
> which then says can use rfc4941). OK to lower the requirement language
> here.
>
>> 5)section 2.10
>>
>> One typo maybe there. "me" should be corrected.
>>
>> These options me be useful for cellular
>>                      ^^
>
> Ack.
>
>> 6)section 2.11
>>
>> DNS server address can also be provisioned through PCO option. Should
>> it be mentioned in this section?
>
> We say that the host may learn the DNS server address by lower layer
> means.. the IP stack has no idea of PCOs and we have on purpose kept
> the term PCO out of the document.
>
> Thanks.
>
> - Jouni
>
>
>
>>
>> Best Regards
>>
>> Gang
>>
>>
>> 2013/5/20, Fred Baker (fred) <fred@cisco.com>:
>>> The working group last call for this draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis
>>> announced
>>> last week continues for another week. Please feel free to comment on it.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>

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From: "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>
To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: DNSv6 Proxy ! - the other "nit"
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy ! - the other "nit"
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> PS: Just noticed a nit in the section 5.1, btw:
>=20
> //If the service provider specifies one
> or more DNS resolvers in DHCP configuration options, the CE router SHOULD
> forward all non-local DNS queries unchanged to those servers.

I am not finding this in the most recent version of the 6204bis draft.
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-12

Barbara

From rajiva@cisco.com  Thu May 23 07:04:00 2013
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From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
To: "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: DNSv6 Proxy ! - the other "nit"
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Hi Barbara,

You are right. I was looking at an ancient version of the document.

Cheers,
Rajiv


> -----Original Message-----
> From: STARK, BARBARA H [mailto:bs7652@att.com]
> Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2013 8:23 AM
> To: Rajiv Asati (rajiva); v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: RE: DNSv6 Proxy ! - the other "nit"
>=20
> > PS: Just noticed a nit in the section 5.1, btw:
> >
> > //If the service provider specifies one or more DNS resolvers in DHCP
> > configuration options, the CE router SHOULD forward all non-local DNS
> > queries unchanged to those servers.
>=20
> I am not finding this in the most recent version of the 6204bis draft.
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-6204bis-12
>=20
> Barbara

From markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au  Thu May 23 14:56:20 2013
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>
To: "cb.list6" <cb.list6@gmail.com>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-64share@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-64share@tools.ietf.org>,  "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Fwd:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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Hi,=0A=0A=0ASuggested changes:=0A=0A=0A=0A1. Introduction=0A=0A"... for del=
egating IPv6 prefixes to a LAN."=0A=0A=0Ato =0A=0A""... for delegating IPv6=
 prefixes to a single LAN interface."=0A=0AGenerally I think this intro tex=
t should make it a bit clearer that these methods are only extending the /6=
4 to a single LAN interface.=0A=0A=0A3.1 Scenario 1: No Global Address on t=
he UE=0A=0A"traffic destine"=0A=0A=0A- missing "d" on destined.=0A=0A=0A"th=
e UE (e.g. DNS caching that requires global connectivity) and prevent prope=
r Path MTU Discovery [RFC1981] to occur on the UE providing an IPv6 router =
function."=0A=0A=0ARegarding breaking PMTUD, I wonder if it might be worth =
requiring that the MTU of the LAN interface is made the same as that of the=
 3GPP interface, and if it isn't the default for the LAN interface (i.e., 1=
500 for ethernet), then the LAN interface RAs have the MTU option set to th=
e size of the 3GPP interface. I think that would prevent the UE needing to =
participate in PMTUD.=0A=0A=0A"The UE copies the prefix 2001:db8:ac10:f002:=
:/64 from the 3GPP interface to the LAN interface,"=0A=0A=0AI think it woul=
d be clearer if this text specified that this copying of the /64 prefix was=
 indicating the prefix was on-link, by adding the prefix to the Prefix List=
, as per RFC5942, "IPv6 Subnet Model: The Relationship between Links and Su=
bnet Prefixes"=0A=0A=0A3.2 Scenario 2: Global Address Only Assigned to LAN=
=0A=0A"The movement of the IPv6 prefix from the 3GPP radio interface to the=
 LAN interface may result in long-lived data connections being terminated d=
uring the transition from a host-only mode to router-and-host mode."=0A=0A=
=0AI'd suggest adding something like:=0A=0A"Connections which are likely to=
 be effected are ones that have been specifically bound to the 3GPP radio i=
nterface."=0A=0A=0A3.3 Scenario 3: A Single Global Address Assigned to 3GPP=
 Radio and LAN Interface=0A=0A=0A=0A"This method also creates complications=
 for ensuring uniqueness for Privacy Extensions [RFC4941].  Privacy Extensi=
ons should be disabled on the 3GPP radio interface while this method is ena=
bled."=0A=0A=0AI think it would be better to advise that when privacy exten=
sions are in use, a single privacy address is generated, and then used as t=
he anycast address on both interfaces, and the preferred and valid lifetime=
s are synchronised, such that the anycast addresses on both interfaces expi=
res at the exact same moment.=0A=0AHmm, actually, there might be another mo=
re broader issue to consider (broader than this specific scenario), regardi=
ng preferred and valid lifetimes of the /64. What preferred and valid lifet=
imes are supplied in the RAs by the 3G network, and should they be copied t=
o the LAN interface RAs? Another issue related to this is the synchronised =
aging of the prefix on the 3GPP and LAN interfaces. In the case of DHCPv6 P=
D, the preferred and valid lifetimes announced in the LAN RAs are to be syn=
chronised with the aging of the DHCPv6-PD prefix, so that when the PD prefi=
x expires, the addresses on the hosts on the LAN expire at the same time.=
=0A=0A=0AHTH,=0AMark.

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From: Erik Kline <ek@google.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 11:15:13 +0900
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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On 23 May 2013 00:58, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>
> On May 21, 2013, at 6:11 PM, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) <rajiva@cisco.com> wrot=
e:
>
>> I like Erik's proposal, since it would nicely plug the hole that Jared p=
ointed out and also provide the source address to be used
>>
>
> It goes well beyond the simplest and ideal solution to the stated problem=
=E2=80=A6
>
>>> The problem with this approach is that you are assuming that the provid=
er
>>> always grants at least n+1 /64s in the PD where n is the number of subn=
ets
>>> needed on the client side.
>>>
>>> Given that some ISPs are so misguided as to dole out /60s (or even less=
), I
>>> don't think you can take that for granted.
>>
>> I don't see a non-trivial issue with applying Erik's proposal even if /6=
4 was provided as DHCP-PD. After all, the CPE router must have to assign at=
 least one IP address on its LAN interface.
>>
>
> But it is frequently rotating that address and requires that the entire /=
64 be available for cryptographic hashing of the request in question. It ma=
kes no allowance for collision with an address in use for another host. As =
such, his proposal requires the dedication of an entire /64 that doesn't ac=
tually have any addresses devoted to other purposes.

Well in my original thesis you wouldn't want to use a per-request IPv6
address unless you be sure you avoided the DAD penalty.  If a CPE had
only a single /64, or suspected that it could not allocated a /64 for
its own uses and have sufficient left-over space for customer use then
I would not recommend trying this scheme.

>>> What do you gain from all this extra complexity that you don't get from
>>> DNSSEC?
>>
>> I see DNSSEC being orthogonal since it is not about specifying which IP =
address to use as the source address, or whether or not to process the inco=
ming DNS messages.
>
> But the whole point of his crypto-munging of the source address is to con=
firm that the reply is associated with an actual pending request and to mak=
e it difficult to guess the right address to send a forged reply to. Since =
DNSSEC eliminates the possibility of a forged reply, I don't see a benefit =
to all the introduced complexity.

This statement seems kinda weird to me.  You seem to be saying that we
don't need source port randomization, or case randomization, or any
other mitigation technique against domain hijacking protection
("Kaminsky attack") because, hey, we have DNSSEC.  Either I've misread
you, or perhaps we really don't need such defensive tactics (I would
not claim to be a DNS expert)?

My proposal was just that we could add 64bits of more randomness to
the 16bits of the port and whatever bits of case-randomization, for
resolver self-defense.  To me, this is like wearing a seat belt and
having side impact cushions and daytime running lights.

Of course a resolver could do DNSSEC on behalf of its clients (even
when they don't do it themselves).  But something like <5% of queries
through Google Public DNS are for hostnames/records/zones that have
correctly validating DNSSEC set up.  Just saying "DNSSEC", to me is
like waiting for the rest of the world to learn how to drive safely.

(Apologies to Rajiv for distracting from his original point.)

From owen@delong.com  Thu May 23 23:33:04 2013
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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] DNSv6 Proxy !
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On May 23, 2013, at 19:15 , Erik Kline <ek@google.com> wrote:

> On 23 May 2013 00:58, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> On May 21, 2013, at 6:11 PM, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) <rajiva@cisco.com> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>> I like Erik's proposal, since it would nicely plug the hole that =
Jared pointed out and also provide the source address to be used
>>>=20
>>=20
>> It goes well beyond the simplest and ideal solution to the stated =
problem=85
>>=20
>>>> The problem with this approach is that you are assuming that the =
provider
>>>> always grants at least n+1 /64s in the PD where n is the number of =
subnets
>>>> needed on the client side.
>>>>=20
>>>> Given that some ISPs are so misguided as to dole out /60s (or even =
less), I
>>>> don't think you can take that for granted.
>>>=20
>>> I don't see a non-trivial issue with applying Erik's proposal even =
if /64 was provided as DHCP-PD. After all, the CPE router must have to =
assign at least one IP address on its LAN interface.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> But it is frequently rotating that address and requires that the =
entire /64 be available for cryptographic hashing of the request in =
question. It makes no allowance for collision with an address in use for =
another host. As such, his proposal requires the dedication of an entire =
/64 that doesn't actually have any addresses devoted to other purposes.
>=20
> Well in my original thesis you wouldn't want to use a per-request IPv6
> address unless you be sure you avoided the DAD penalty.  If a CPE had
> only a single /64, or suspected that it could not allocated a /64 for
> its own uses and have sufficient left-over space for customer use then
> I would not recommend trying this scheme.
>=20

Which makes it inappropriate for the draft under discussion which was my =
original point.

>>>> What do you gain from all this extra complexity that you don't get =
from
>>>> DNSSEC?
>>>=20
>>> I see DNSSEC being orthogonal since it is not about specifying which =
IP address to use as the source address, or whether or not to process =
the incoming DNS messages.
>>=20
>> But the whole point of his crypto-munging of the source address is to =
confirm that the reply is associated with an actual pending request and =
to make it difficult to guess the right address to send a forged reply =
to. Since DNSSEC eliminates the possibility of a forged reply, I don't =
see a benefit to all the introduced complexity.
>=20
> This statement seems kinda weird to me.  You seem to be saying that we
> don't need source port randomization, or case randomization, or any
> other mitigation technique against domain hijacking protection
> ("Kaminsky attack") because, hey, we have DNSSEC.  Either I've misread
> you, or perhaps we really don't need such defensive tactics (I would
> not claim to be a DNS expert)?
>=20

If we implement DNSSEC, we don't need those tactics. Correct.

> My proposal was just that we could add 64bits of more randomness to
> the 16bits of the port and whatever bits of case-randomization, for
> resolver self-defense.  To me, this is like wearing a seat belt and
> having side impact cushions and daytime running lights.

DNSSEC is like a seatbelt and airbags. Port randomization is like adding
a helmet. Case randomization is akin to a fire suit.

Port randomization is a reasonable mitigation. Case randomization has
some level of diminishing returns, but it's mostly harmless. Especially
in an environment where DNSSEC is implemented. Port and Case
randomizations were primarily developed as stop-gaps to get by
while DNSSEC awaited broader deployment.

Your proposal would, in this particular situation, best be compared to
tearing the entire car apart to install a roll cage, active independent
suspension, and 5-point harnesses... Just to drive to a short distance
to work and back on low-speed lightly travelled streets.

In other words, it's way way way beyond the diminishing returns point
in my opinion.

> Of course a resolver could do DNSSEC on behalf of its clients (even
> when they don't do it themselves).  But something like <5% of queries
> through Google Public DNS are for hostnames/records/zones that have
> correctly validating DNSSEC set up.  Just saying "DNSSEC", to me is
> like waiting for the rest of the world to learn how to drive safely.

While there's truth in that, remember, we're talking in the context of
an ID that's purporting to be about requirements for residential CPE.

In that context, by the time anything in this ID gets deployed into =
actual
CPE, most likely, DNSSEC will be much more widely deployed.
DNSSEC is growing fairly rapidly.

However, even without it, your added 64 bits of randomness comes at
a cost which vastly exceeds its benefit IMHO.

Owen


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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 18:44:26 +0900
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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--047d7bb0431638711404dd73a6fa
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On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com>wrot=
e:

>  No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193 section
> 3.2.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if you generate 10000 ULAs
> you'll get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate 100000 (e.g., if
> you regenerate them once a second, for one day) you'll get a collision on=
ce
> in 1000 times. And so on.****
>
> [Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where do we nee=
d
> to change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can hardly imagine a
> use case of that.
>

This is a technical document meant to provide guidance, so I'd say that
it's not appropriate to use vague words like regularly "regularly", without
stating what they mean to state what it means. Can I generate 10000 ULAs
per second, as long as I do it "regularly"? Likely not.

So you either remove the text, or state that if ULAs are generated
regularly, then collisions are possible, and perhaps provide provide an
example that calculates the probability of collision with some reasonal
value of the regeneration interval.

****
>
>     V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing
> which doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms lik=
e
> DHCP or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes on=
ly
> support manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn=
't
> support automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has
> enough resources to implement a UI for manual address assignment?****
>
> [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment,
> there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for t=
he
> nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the
> embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or
> self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without
> address provisioning procedures.****
>
>  How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to
> communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, you
> can just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support rout=
er
> advertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, then th=
ey
> can use autoconfiguration. ****
>
> [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it=92s a basic IPv6 function , =
the
> draft specifically noted this point.  But if the sensors are in a MANET,
> then the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional wired SLAAC,
> since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable for this
> scenario, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear, will modify
> later.
>

If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, because
they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they can
autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So there is no
need to use ULA.

****
>
>    VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes
> terrible operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; th=
e
> multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 protoco=
l.
> Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need to
> adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4." This text does not
> make sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a
> feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope
> addresses. For example, you can use only global addresses and have no
> routing complexity.****
>
> [Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.****
>
> One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple
> prefixes in a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins ne=
ed
> to be familiar with it in the future.****
>
>  No, because having multiple prefixes introduces operational complexity
> even if the admins understand multiple prefixes. All things being equal,
> having only one prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be
> simpler than having two.****
>
> ** **
>
> In other words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity, because
> admins will need to understand the complexity anyway". What I'm saying is
> that while they need to understand the complexity, we don't have to creat=
e
> the complexity if we don't need it.****
>
> [Bing] No, I=92m not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial use cas=
e
> in 6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity if they
> want the benefit.
>

Ok, so then just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off
between complexity and functionality, and leave it at that?

--047d7bb0431638711404dd73a6fa
Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Liubing (Leo) <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">le=
o.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><d=
iv class=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt"><div><div><div><div><div class=3D"im"><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span l=
ang=3D"EN-US">No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 41=
93 section 3.2.3. If I&#39;m reading that section correctly, if you generat=
e 10000 ULAs you&#39;ll get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate 10=
0000 (e.g., if
 you regenerate them once a second, for one day) you&#39;ll get a collision=
 once in 1000 times. And so on.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[=
Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where do we need t=
o change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can hardly imagine a use=
 case of that.</span></p>

</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div =
style>This is a technical document meant to provide guidance, so I&#39;d sa=
y that it&#39;s not appropriate to use vague words like regularly &quot;reg=
ularly&quot;, without stating what they mean to state what it means. Can I =
generate 10000 ULAs per second, as long as I do it &quot;regularly&quot;? L=
ikely not.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>So you either remove the text, or state tha=
t if ULAs are generated regularly, then collisions are possible, and perhap=
s provide provide an example that calculates the probability of collision w=
ith some reasonal value of the regeneration interval.</div>

<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"b=
lue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue=
 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">

<div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><div class=3D"im">
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=A0V. &quot;the network needs U=
LA as the on-demand and stable addressing which doesn&#39;t need much code =
to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND.&quot; I don&#39;t
 think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual addr=
ess assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn&#39;t support automa=
tic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough resources t=
o implement a UI for manual address
 assignment?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[Bing] =
The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, there might=
 not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment
 for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in =
the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-gen=
erating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address provi=
sioning procedures.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>


</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div><div><div class=3D"im">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">How are those nodes going to fi=
nd the MAC address of the link router to communicate off-link? If they can&=
#39;t do this, then you don&#39;t need ULA, you can just use link-local. If=
 they can do this, then they must support router
 advertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, then the=
y can use autoconfiguration.=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[=
Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it=92s a basic IPv6 function , the=
 draft specifically noted this point. =A0But if the sensors are in a MANET,=
 then the autoconfiguration is different with the
 traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA=
 is suitable for this scenario, however, current text seems not sufficient/=
clear, will modify later.</span></p></div></div></div></div></div></div>

</div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>If they support SLAAC, then th=
ey don&#39;t need to be pre-configured, because they can just use SLAAC to =
autoconfigure addresses. And if they can autoconfigure an address, they can=
 use a global address. So there is no need to use ULA.</div>

<div><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex=
;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"b=
lue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue=
 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">

<div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><div class=3D"im">
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#500050">VI. &qu=
ot;there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes terrible=
 operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem;
 the multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 prot=
ocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need t=
o adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4.&quot; This text does =
not make sense. Just because having multiple
 global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6 doesn&#39;t mean that you must=
 have multiple global-scope addresses. For example, you can use only global=
 addresses and have no routing complexity.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>


</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[Bing] =
The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">One is =
the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixes in a =
network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins
 need to be familiar with it in the future.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">No, because having multiple pre=
fixes introduces operational complexity even if the admins understand multi=
ple prefixes. All things being equal, having only one prefix (e.g., a globa=
l prefix) is always going to be simpler
 than having two.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"im">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In other words: what you&#39;re=
 saying is &quot;let&#39;s create complexity, because admins will need to u=
nderstand the complexity anyway&quot;. What I&#39;m saying is that while th=
ey need to understand the complexity, we don&#39;t have to create
 the complexity if we don&#39;t need it.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[=
Bing] No, I=92m not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial use case i=
n 6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity if they wa=
nt the benefit.</span></p>

</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div =
style>Ok, so then just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off =
between complexity and functionality, and leave it at that?</div></div>

</div></div>

--047d7bb0431638711404dd73a6fa--

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References: <201305181245.r4ICj0i04824@ftpeng-update.cisco.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D722B0E@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr1UPt6WcAeDbuZzP6Cf5EThy7pGWuu8i6WsJXMNoaCAgQ@mail.gmail.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D726A66@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> <97F7691B-F6A0-49A5-90AC-1A9CDAA50BD3@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <CAKD1Yr3SUa8pz3=UGQTzuvPNva3vFrzTmt=oQ1Wbd4uAH_T0rw@mail.gmail.com> <EMEW3|e546aff95a77e72b00c33cf22a37f214p4KAsR03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|97F7691B-F6A0-49A5-90AC-1A9CDAA50BD3@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 18:46:38 +0900
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To: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:54 PM, Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:

> Which reminds me, I would like to see this document do some deeper
> analysis of the issue raised after IETF86, regarding "ULAs on by default"
> alongside IPv4/NAT. That thread, discussing the practical issues, ran to
> 150+ emails before fizzling out without any specific proposed text, either
> for Bing's draft or the homenet arch. I recall that Ole's point on this was
> that *if* hosts supported RFC4191 RIO, then ULA routes could be added
> without a default route, and dependencies/timeouts on ICMPv6 redirects
> avoided. And RFC6204bis ULA-5 recommends that behaviour (along with L-3).
> The little snag is that current OSes certainly don't all support RFC4191.
>

Agreed. Though since this document is about usage guidelines, then there is
nothing much it can do except saying "currently, ULA+IPv4 or ULA+IPv4+IPv6
GUA doesn't work in the general case because OSes don't all support RFC
4191 and RFC 6724". Right?

--0015175cf92a2605f804dd73aed0
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:54 PM, Tim Chown <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">tjc@ecs.sot=
on.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"><div><di=
v class=3D"im"><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">Which reminds me, I=
 would like to see this document do some deeper analysis of the issue raise=
d after IETF86, regarding &quot;ULAs on by default&quot; alongside IPv4/NAT=
. That thread, discussing the practical issues, ran to 150+ emails before f=
izzling out without any specific proposed text, either for Bing&#39;s draft=
 or the homenet arch. I recall that Ole&#39;s point on this was that *if* h=
osts supported RFC4191 RIO, then ULA routes could be added without a defaul=
t route, and dependencies/timeouts on ICMPv6 redirects avoided. And RFC6204=
bis ULA-5 recommends that behaviour (along with L-3). The little snag is th=
at current OSes certainly don&#39;t all support RFC4191.</span></div>

</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Agreed. Though sin=
ce this document is about usage guidelines, then there is nothing much it c=
an do except saying &quot;currently, ULA+IPv4 or ULA+IPv4+IPv6 GUA doesn&#3=
9;t work in the general case because OSes don&#39;t all support RFC 4191 an=
d RFC 6724&quot;. Right?</div>

</div></div></div>

--0015175cf92a2605f804dd73aed0--

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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 18:52:48 +0900
Message-ID: <CAKD1Yr1a+khdqoVhq82OToq1o0E1HsQaU45-t5Ltf7sq0dQOFQ@mail.gmail.com>
To: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:21 AM, Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> That's correct, of course. The underlying problem here is that the
>  notion of concentric circles of scope that was originally described
> for IPv6 is simply broken. We can't fix that in the context of
> describing ULA usage scenarios, so let's not try.
>

Actually, I think the underlying problem as regards this specific draft is
that ULAs were not well thought-out. They came out of a compromise where no
side got what it wanted and what we got was a poorly-understood, possibly
unusable hybrid.

Obviously that ship has sailed, but still, what we're doing here might be
putting lipstick on a pig.

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:21 AM, Brian E Carpenter <span d=
ir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gma=
il_extra">


<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><span style=
=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">That&#39;s correct, of course. The underlying prob=
lem here is that the</span><br>


</div>
notion of concentric circles of scope that was originally described<br>
for IPv6 is simply broken. We can&#39;t fix that in the context of<br>
describing ULA usage scenarios, so let&#39;s not try.<br></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div>Actually, I think the underlying problem as regards this spe=
cific draft is that ULAs were not well thought-out. They came out of a comp=
romise where no side got what it wanted and what we got was a poorly-unders=
tood, possibly unusable hybrid.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Obviously that ship has sailed, but still, what we&#39;=
re doing here might be putting lipstick on a pig.</div>
</div></div></div>

--047d7b6da83224f34204dd73c4c0--

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References: <201305181245.r4ICj0i04824@ftpeng-update.cisco.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D722B0E@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr1UPt6WcAeDbuZzP6Cf5EThy7pGWuu8i6WsJXMNoaCAgQ@mail.gmail.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D726A66@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> <97F7691B-F6A0-49A5-90AC-1A9CDAA50BD3@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <CAKD1Yr3SUa8pz3=UGQTzuvPNva3vFrzTmt=oQ1Wbd4uAH_T0rw@mail.gmail.com> <EMEW3|e546aff95a77e72b00c33cf22a37f214p4KAsR03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|97F7691B-F6A0-49A5-90AC-1A9CDAA50BD3@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <CAKD1Yr2xpVwkwnzYDiDy4dhJCnH+Hu_6aqHDk6FZSpJNdJOMrw@mail.gmail.com> <6333B7CA-3CE2-4595-BEC5-CFB1ED70A38A@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
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Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On 24 May 2013, at 10:46, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:

> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:54 PM, Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk> =
wrote:
> Which reminds me, I would like to see this document do some deeper =
analysis of the issue raised after IETF86, regarding "ULAs on by =
default" alongside IPv4/NAT. That thread, discussing the practical =
issues, ran to 150+ emails before fizzling out without any specific =
proposed text, either for Bing's draft or the homenet arch. I recall =
that Ole's point on this was that *if* hosts supported RFC4191 RIO, then =
ULA routes could be added without a default route, and =
dependencies/timeouts on ICMPv6 redirects avoided. And RFC6204bis ULA-5 =
recommends that behaviour (along with L-3). The little snag is that =
current OSes certainly don't all support RFC4191.
>=20
> Agreed. Though since this document is about usage guidelines, then =
there is nothing much it can do except saying "currently, ULA+IPv4 or =
ULA+IPv4+IPv6 GUA doesn't work in the general case because OSes don't =
all support RFC 4191 and RFC 6724". Right?

Sounds fine to me. In my view, that's the type of analysis, and the type =
of implicit recommendations that this type of document can usefully =
make. i.e. If you are thinking about using ULAs for a specific use case, =
these are the considerations. If that can be used as some extra =
encouragement for vendors to support 4191 and 6724, that's a bonus.

I must admit that I had thought there was wider implementation of 4191 =
than it seems there is.

Tim


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<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=iso-8859-1"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>On 24 May 2013, at 10:46, Lorenzo Colitti &lt;<a href="mailto:lorenzo@google.com">lorenzo@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:54 PM, Tim Chown <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk" target="_blank">tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; border-left-width: 1px; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-style: solid; padding-left: 1ex; position: static; z-index: auto; "><div style="word-wrap:break-word"><div class="im"><div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">Which reminds me, I would like to see this document do some deeper analysis of the issue raised after IETF86, regarding "ULAs on by default" alongside IPv4/NAT. That thread, discussing the practical issues, ran to 150+ emails before fizzling out without any specific proposed text, either for Bing's draft or the homenet arch. I recall that Ole's point on this was that *if* hosts supported RFC4191 RIO, then ULA routes could be added without a default route, and dependencies/timeouts on ICMPv6 redirects avoided. And RFC6204bis ULA-5 recommends that behaviour (along with L-3). The little snag is that current OSes certainly don't all support RFC4191.</span></div>

</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style="">Agreed. Though since this document is about usage guidelines, then there is nothing much it can do except saying "currently, ULA+IPv4 or ULA+IPv4+IPv6 GUA doesn't work in the general case because OSes don't all support RFC 4191 and RFC 6724". Right?</div>

</div></div></div>
</blockquote><br></div><div>Sounds fine to me. In my view, that's the type of analysis, and the type of implicit recommendations that this type of document can usefully make. i.e. If you are thinking about using ULAs for a specific use case, these are the considerations. If that can be used as some extra encouragement for vendors to support 4191 and 6724, that's a bonus.</div><div><br></div><div>I must admit that I had thought there was wider implementation of 4191 than it seems there is.</div><div><br></div><div>Tim</div><br></body></html>
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Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On 24 May 2013, at 10:52, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:

> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:21 AM, Brian E Carpenter =
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's correct, of course. The underlying problem here is that the
> notion of concentric circles of scope that was originally described
> for IPv6 is simply broken. We can't fix that in the context of
> describing ULA usage scenarios, so let's not try.
>=20
> Actually, I think the underlying problem as regards this specific =
draft is that ULAs were not well thought-out. They came out of a =
compromise where no side got what it wanted and what we got was a =
poorly-understood, possibly unusable hybrid.
>=20
> Obviously that ship has sailed, but still, what we're doing here might =
be putting lipstick on a pig.

Well, the homenet ship is just sounding its horn, with Mark and Ray =
about to toss the ropes to shore, weigh anchor and sail off.

If you disagree with the rationale for ULA usage in homenet, now's a =
good time to shout.

The argument in favour includes constrained devices (perhaps with ULAs =
"burnt in"), connectivity inside routed homenets prior to external ISP =
connectivity, internal connectivity during sustained ISP outages, and =
internal connectivity stability when external prefixes change.

An argument against is the ULA (no IPv6 GUA) + IPv4/NAT scenario. But =
wider implementation of 4191/6724, to enable support of the =
recommendations in 6204/6204-bis, would help address that concern.

Tim


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<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=iso-8859-1"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>On 24 May 2013, at 10:52, Lorenzo Colitti &lt;<a href="mailto:lorenzo@google.com">lorenzo@google.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:21 AM, Brian E Carpenter <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" target="_blank">brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_extra">


<div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34)">That's correct, of course. The underlying problem here is that the</span><br>


</div>
notion of concentric circles of scope that was originally described<br>
for IPv6 is simply broken. We can't fix that in the context of<br>
describing ULA usage scenarios, so let's not try.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Actually, I think the underlying problem as regards this specific draft is that ULAs were not well thought-out. They came out of a compromise where no side got what it wanted and what we got was a poorly-understood, possibly unusable hybrid.</div>

<div><br></div><div>Obviously that ship has sailed, but still, what we're doing here might be putting lipstick on a pig.</div>
</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Well, the homenet ship is just sounding its horn, with Mark and Ray about to toss the ropes to shore, weigh anchor and sail off.</div><div><br></div><div>If you disagree with the rationale for ULA usage in homenet, now's a good time to shout.</div><div><br></div><div>The argument in favour includes constrained devices (perhaps with ULAs "burnt in"), connectivity inside routed homenets prior to external ISP connectivity, internal connectivity during sustained ISP outages, and internal connectivity stability when external prefixes change.</div><div><br></div><div>An argument against is the ULA (no IPv6 GUA) + IPv4/NAT scenario. But wider implementation of 4191/6724, to enable support of the recommendations in 6204/6204-bis, would help address that concern.</div><div><br></div><div>Tim</div><br></body></html>
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From: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Hi, Lorenzo

From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 PM
To: Liubing (Leo)
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.o=
rg
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-us=
age-recommendations

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com<mail=
to:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193 section 3.2=
.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if you generate 10000 ULAs you'l=
l get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate 100000 (e.g., if you reg=
enerate them once a second, for one day) you'll get a collision once in 100=
0 times. And so on.
[Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where do we need =
to change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can hardly imagine a us=
e case of that.

This is a technical document meant to provide guidance, so I'd say that it'=
s not appropriate to use vague words like regularly "regularly", without st=
ating what they mean to state what it means. Can I generate 10000 ULAs per =
second, as long as I do it "regularly"? Likely not.

So you either remove the text, or state that if ULAs are generated regularl=
y, then collisions are possible, and perhaps provide provide an example tha=
t calculates the probability of collision with some reasonal value of the r=
egeneration interval.

[Bing] OK, I'll refine the word.

 V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which doe=
sn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or N=
D." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support =
manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't support=
 automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough reso=
urces to implement a UI for manual address assignment?
[Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, ther=
e might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for the nod=
es. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the embedded=
 system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-generating a UL=
A, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address provisioning proc=
edures.
How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to com=
municate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, you can =
just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support router adv=
ertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, then they ca=
n use autoconfiguration.
[Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it's a basic IPv6 function , the =
draft specifically noted this point.  But if the sensors are in a MANET, th=
en the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional wired SLAAC, sin=
ce MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable for this scenari=
o, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear, will modify later.

If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, because t=
hey can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they can autoconf=
igure an address, they can use a global address. So there is no need to use=
 ULA.

[Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let's do not mix the concepts of global add=
r-provisioning and autoconfiguration together. And in MANET, the SLAAC is n=
ot (fully)applicable, see http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-st=
atement-04.html#section-5.2

VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes terrib=
le operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; the multip=
le- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 protocol. Runni=
ng multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need to adapt thi=
s new operational model than that in IPv4." This text does not make sense. =
Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6 do=
esn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope addresses. For example,=
 you can use only global addresses and have no routing complexity.
[Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.
One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixe=
s in a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins need to be =
familiar with it in the future.
No, because having multiple prefixes introduces operational complexity even=
 if the admins understand multiple prefixes. All things being equal, having=
 only one prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be simpler than=
 having two.

In other words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity, because adm=
ins will need to understand the complexity anyway". What I'm saying is that=
 while they need to understand the complexity, we don't have to create the =
complexity if we don't need it.
[Bing] No, I'm not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial use case in=
 6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity if they wan=
t the benefit.

Ok, so then just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off betwee=
n complexity and functionality, and leave it at that?
[Bing] A brief complexity hint would be valuable. Thanks.

B.R.
Bing

--_000_8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D729249nkgeml506mbxchi_
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<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi, Lorenz=
o<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Liubing (Leo)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> v6ops@ietf.org; draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools=
.ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops=
-ula-usage-recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM=
, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">No, the probability is much higher than you t=
hink. See RFC 4193 section 3.2.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if=
 you generate 10000 ULAs you'll get a
 collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate 100000 (e.g., if you regenerate=
 them once a second, for one day) you'll get a collision once in 1000 times=
. And so on.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] In theory, I a=
gree with you. But the point here is where do we need to change the ULA so =
frequently? For random draw? I can hardly
 imagine a use case of that.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This is a technical document me=
ant to provide guidance, so I'd say that it's not appropriate to use vague =
words like regularly &quot;regularly&quot;, without stating what they mean =
to state what it means. Can I generate 10000 ULAs
 per second, as long as I do it &quot;regularly&quot;? Likely not.<o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So you either remove the text, =
or state that if ULAs are generated regularly, then collisions are possible=
, and perhaps provide provide an example that calculates the probability of=
 collision with some reasonal value
 of the regeneration interval.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
OK, I&#8217;ll refine the word.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;V. &quot;the network needs ULA as the o=
n-demand and stable addressing which doesn't need much code to support addr=
ess assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND.&quot; I don't
 think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual addr=
ess assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't support automatic =
address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough resources to im=
plement a UI for manual address
 assignment?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] The lack of re=
sources mainly regarding the network environment, there might not be a comp=
rehensive network provisioning environment
 for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in =
the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-gen=
erating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address provi=
sioning procedures.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">How are those nodes going to find the MAC add=
ress of the link router to communicate off-link? If they can't do this, the=
n you don't need ULA, you can just use
 link-local. If they can do this, then they must support router advertiseme=
nts or similar. If they support router advertisements, then they can use au=
toconfiguration.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] Surely they ne=
ed to support SLAAC, it&#8217;s a basic IPv6 function , the draft specifica=
lly noted this point. &nbsp;But if the sensors are
 in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional w=
ired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable f=
or this scenario, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear, will mo=
dify later.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If they support SLAAC, then the=
y don't need to be pre-configured, because they can just use SLAAC to autoc=
onfigure addresses. And if they can autoconfigure an address, they can use =
a global address. So there is no need
 to use ULA.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
The reasoning is flawed. Let&#8217;s do not mix the concepts of global addr=
-provisioning and autoconfiguration together. And in MANET, the SLAAC is no=
t (fully)applicable, see http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-sta=
tement-04.html#section-5.2<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#500050">VI. &quot;there alway=
s be some argument that in practice the ULA&#43;PA makes terrible operation=
al complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem;
 the multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 prot=
ocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need t=
o adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4.&quot; This text does =
not make sense. Just because having multiple
 global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must hav=
e multiple global-scope addresses. For example, you can use only global add=
resses and have no routing complexity.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] The ULA&#43;PA=
 operational complexity contains two aspect.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">One is the common iss=
ue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixes in a network is new=
 to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins
 need to be familiar with it in the future.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">No, because having multiple prefixes introduc=
es operational complexity even if the admins understand multiple prefixes. =
All things being equal, having only one
 prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be simpler than having t=
wo.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In other words: what you're saying is &quot;l=
et's create complexity, because admins will need to understand the complexi=
ty anyway&quot;. What I'm saying is that while they
 need to understand the complexity, we don't have to create the complexity =
if we don't need it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] No, I&#8217;m =
not say that. ULA&#43;PA is identified as beneficial use case in 6renum and=
 Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity
 if they want the benefit.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ok, so then just cite those doc=
uments, say that there is a trade off between complexity and functionality,=
 and leave it at that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] =
A brief complexity hint would be valuable. Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D"><o:p>&n=
bsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">B.R.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Bing<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D729249nkgeml506mbxchi_--

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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Fri, 24 May 2013 20:42:09 +0900
Message-ID: <CAKD1Yr3XcN+H344uNQUNWmASdP3kNUzKUc_QUSgvAmY0TyO0MA@mail.gmail.com>
To: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com>wrot=
e:

>   V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which
> doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP
> or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only
> support manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn=
't
> support automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has
> enough resources to implement a UI for manual address assignment?****
>
> [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment,
> there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for t=
he
> nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the
> embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or
> self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without
> address provisioning procedures.****
>
>   How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to
> communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, you
> can just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support rout=
er
> advertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, then th=
ey
> can use autoconfiguration. ****
>
> [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it=92s a basic IPv6 function , =
the
> draft specifically noted this point.  But if the sensors are in a MANET,
> then the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional wired SLAAC,
> since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable for this
> scenario, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear, will modify
> later.****
>
>  ** **
>
> If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, because
> they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they can
> autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So there is no
> need to use ULA.****
>
> ** **
>
> [Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let=92s do not mix the concepts of global
> addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together.
>

Why is it flawed? You said that a use case for ULA is resource-constrained
nodes, because you can pre-assign addresses to them, and that this
simplifies the nodes. But it doesn't simplify the nodes, because even if
you pre-assign addresses, the nodes still need some mechanism (e.g., RA) in
order to find out who you can communicate to. So the nodes have to support
RAs. And if the nodes support RA, you can use autoconfiguration and you
don't need to pre-assign addresses. So you can use any type of address, not
only ULA. So this is not a use case for ULA.


> And in MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-=
5.2
>

That draft expired in 2008, so it's not really relevant. Do you have a more
up-to-date document?


On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com>wrot=
e:

>  Hi, Lorenzo****
>
> ** **
>
> *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 PM
>
> *To:* Liubing (Leo)
> *Cc:* v6ops@ietf.org;
> draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
> *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:
> draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations****
>
>  ** **
>
> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
> wrote:****
>
>     No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193
> section 3.2.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if you generate 100=
00
> ULAs you'll get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate 100000 (e.g.=
,
> if you regenerate them once a second, for one day) you'll get a collision
> once in 1000 times. And so on.****
>
> [Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where do we nee=
d
> to change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can hardly imagine a
> use case of that.****
>
>  ** **
>
> This is a technical document meant to provide guidance, so I'd say that
> it's not appropriate to use vague words like regularly "regularly", witho=
ut
> stating what they mean to state what it means. Can I generate 10000 ULAs
> per second, as long as I do it "regularly"? Likely not.****
>
> ** **
>
> So you either remove the text, or state that if ULAs are generated
> regularly, then collisions are possible, and perhaps provide provide an
> example that calculates the probability of collision with some reasonal
> value of the regeneration interval.****
>
> ** **
>
> [Bing] OK, I=92ll refine the word.****
>
> ** **
>
>         V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing
> which doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms lik=
e
> DHCP or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes on=
ly
> support manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn=
't
> support automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has
> enough resources to implement a UI for manual address assignment?****
>
> [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment,
> there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for t=
he
> nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the
> embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or
> self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without
> address provisioning procedures.****
>
>   How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to
> communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, you
> can just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support rout=
er
> advertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, then th=
ey
> can use autoconfiguration. ****
>
> [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it=92s a basic IPv6 function , =
the
> draft specifically noted this point.  But if the sensors are in a MANET,
> then the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional wired SLAAC,
> since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable for this
> scenario, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear, will modify
> later.****
>
>  ** **
>
> If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, because
> they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they can
> autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So there is no
> need to use ULA.****
>
> ** **
>
> [Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let=92s do not mix the concepts of global
> addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together. And in MANET, the SLAAC
> is not (fully)applicable, see
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-=
5.2
> ****
>
> ** **
>
>        VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA
> makes terrible operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific
> problem; the multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of
> IPv6 protocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, an=
d
> we need to adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4." This text
> does not make sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses =
is
> a feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope
> addresses. For example, you can use only global addresses and have no
> routing complexity.****
>
> [Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.****
>
> One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple
> prefixes in a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins ne=
ed
> to be familiar with it in the future.****
>
>  No, because having multiple prefixes introduces operational complexity
> even if the admins understand multiple prefixes. All things being equal,
> having only one prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be
> simpler than having two.****
>
>  ****
>
> In other words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity, because
> admins will need to understand the complexity anyway". What I'm saying is
> that while they need to understand the complexity, we don't have to creat=
e
> the complexity if we don't need it.****
>
> [Bing] No, I=92m not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial use cas=
e
> in 6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity if they
> want the benefit.****
>
>  ** **
>
> Ok, so then just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off
> between complexity and functionality, and leave it at that?****
>
> [Bing] A brief complexity hint would be valuable. Thanks.****
>
> ** **
>
> B.R.****
>
> Bing****
>

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) <span dir=
=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">le=
o.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"p=
urple"><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:=
0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">

<div><div><div><div class=3D"im"><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-le=
ft:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-r=
ight:0cm"><div><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;=
padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">

<div><div><div><div><blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #ccc=
ccc 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;marg=
in-right:0cm;margin-bottom:5.0pt"><div><div><div style=3D"border:none;borde=
r-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">

<div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=A0V. &quot;the =
network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which doesn&#39;t =
need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND.&qu=
ot; I don&#39;t
 think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual addr=
ess assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn&#39;t support automa=
tic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough resources t=
o implement a UI for manual address
 assignment?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[Bing] =
The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, there might=
 not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment
 for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in =
the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-gen=
erating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address provi=
sioning procedures.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>


</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">How are those nodes going to fi=
nd the MAC address of the link router to communicate off-link? If they can&=
#39;t do this, then you don&#39;t need ULA, you can just use
 link-local. If they can do this, then they must support router advertiseme=
nts or similar. If they support router advertisements, then they can use au=
toconfiguration.=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[Bing] =
Surely they need to support SLAAC, it=92s a basic IPv6 function , the draft=
 specifically noted this point. =A0But if the sensors are
 in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional w=
ired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable f=
or this scenario, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear, will mo=
dify later.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>


</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"im">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If they support SLAAC, then the=
y don&#39;t need to be pre-configured, because they can just use SLAAC to a=
utoconfigure addresses. And if they can autoconfigure an address, they can =
use a global address. So there is no need
 to use ULA.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[=
Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let=92s do not mix the concepts of global ad=
dr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together.</span></p></div></div></div=
></div>

</div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Why is it flawed? =
You said that a use case for ULA is resource-constrained nodes, because you=
 can pre-assign addresses to them, and that this simplifies the nodes. But =
it doesn&#39;t simplify the nodes, because even if you pre-assign addresses=
, the nodes still need some mechanism (e.g., RA) in order to find out who y=
ou can communicate to. So the nodes have to support RAs. And if the nodes s=
upport RA, you can use autoconfiguration and you don&#39;t need to pre-assi=
gn addresses. So you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is =
not a use case for ULA.</div>

<div style>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=
=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid=
 blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4.0pt">

<div><div><div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"co=
lor:#1f497d">And in MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see <a href=
=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#sectio=
n-5.2" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-sta=
tement-04.html#section-5.2</a></span></p>

</div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div =
style>That draft expired in 2008, so it&#39;s not really relevant. Do you h=
ave a more up-to-date document?</div></div></div></div><div class=3D"gmail_=
extra">

<br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing=
 (Leo) <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" targ=
et=3D"_blank">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote c=
lass=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;=
padding-left:1ex">







<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Hi, Lorenz=
o<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@goo=
gle.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 PM</span></p><div class=3D"im"><br>
<b>To:</b> Liubing (Leo)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.o=
rg</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tool=
s.ietf.org</a><br>


<b>Subject:</b> Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops=
-ula-usage-recommendations<u></u><u></u></div><p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM=
, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div><div class=3D"im">
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">No, the probability is much hig=
her than you think. See RFC 4193 section 3.2.3. If I&#39;m reading that sec=
tion correctly, if you generate 10000 ULAs you&#39;ll get a
 collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate 100000 (e.g., if you regenerate=
 them once a second, for one day) you&#39;ll get a collision once in 1000 t=
imes. And so on.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[Bing] =
In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where do we need to chan=
ge the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can hardly
 imagine a use case of that.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This is a technical document me=
ant to provide guidance, so I&#39;d say that it&#39;s not appropriate to us=
e vague words like regularly &quot;regularly&quot;, without stating what th=
ey mean to state what it means. Can I generate 10000 ULAs
 per second, as long as I do it &quot;regularly&quot;? Likely not.<u></u><u=
></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"im">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So you either remove the text, =
or state that if ULAs are generated regularly, then collisions are possible=
, and perhaps provide provide an example that calculates the probability of=
 collision with some reasonal value
 of the regeneration interval.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[=
Bing] OK, I=92ll refine the word.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><div class=3D"im">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=A0V. &quot;the network needs U=
LA as the on-demand and stable addressing which doesn&#39;t need much code =
to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND.&quot; I don&#39;t
 think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual addr=
ess assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn&#39;t support automa=
tic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough resources t=
o implement a UI for manual address
 assignment?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[Bing] =
The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, there might=
 not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment
 for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in =
the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-gen=
erating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address provi=
sioning procedures.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>


</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">How are those nodes going to fi=
nd the MAC address of the link router to communicate off-link? If they can&=
#39;t do this, then you don&#39;t need ULA, you can just use
 link-local. If they can do this, then they must support router advertiseme=
nts or similar. If they support router advertisements, then they can use au=
toconfiguration.=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[Bing] =
Surely they need to support SLAAC, it=92s a basic IPv6 function , the draft=
 specifically noted this point. =A0But if the sensors are
 in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional w=
ired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable f=
or this scenario, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear, will mo=
dify later.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>


</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"im">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If they support SLAAC, then the=
y don&#39;t need to be pre-configured, because they can just use SLAAC to a=
utoconfigure addresses. And if they can autoconfigure an address, they can =
use a global address. So there is no need
 to use ULA.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=A0=
<u></u></span></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[=
Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let=92s do not mix the concepts of global ad=
dr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together. And in MANET, the SLAAC is =
not (fully)applicable, see <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf=
-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.2" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.iet=
f.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.2</a><u></u><u><=
/u></span></p>


</div><div class=3D"im">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #cccccc 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#500050">VI. &qu=
ot;there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes terrible=
 operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem;
 the multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 prot=
ocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need t=
o adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4.&quot; This text does =
not make sense. Just because having multiple
 global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6 doesn&#39;t mean that you must=
 have multiple global-scope addresses. For example, you can use only global=
 addresses and have no routing complexity.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></=
u><u></u></span></p>


</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[Bing] =
The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.</span><span lang=3D"=
EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">One is =
the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixes in a =
network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins
 need to be familiar with it in the future.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u><=
/u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">No, because having multiple pre=
fixes introduces operational complexity even if the admins understand multi=
ple prefixes. All things being equal, having only one
 prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be simpler than having t=
wo.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=A0<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In other words: what you&#39;re=
 saying is &quot;let&#39;s create complexity, because admins will need to u=
nderstand the complexity anyway&quot;. What I&#39;m saying is that while th=
ey
 need to understand the complexity, we don&#39;t have to create the complex=
ity if we don&#39;t need it.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[Bing] =
No, I=92m not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial use case in 6ren=
um and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity
 if they want the benefit.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u><u></u></span>=
</p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div><div><div class=3D"im">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ok, so then just cite those doc=
uments, say that there is a trade off between complexity and functionality,=
 and leave it at that?<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">[=
Bing] A brief complexity hint would be valuable. Thanks.<u></u><u></u></spa=
n></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u>=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">B.R.<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d">Bing<u>=
</u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br></div>

--047d7bb043163da89d04dd754b50--

From Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.com  Fri May 24 05:32:03 2013
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From: Anders Brandt <Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>, "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Hi Lorenzo

> So you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is not a use ca=
se for ULA.

The ULA reasoning starts elsewhere. It is tied to a deployment use case:

When nodes are installed in a new house, there may be no internet connectiv=
ity - and even more importantly:
Even if there is internet connectivity, then you can be certain that at som=
e time, the ISP will change your
assigned prefix.
This is critical to certain 6LoWPAN applications such as home automation.
Remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are spread all over the house=
.
They control lights, garage doors and aircon devices.

The addresses of the lights, garage doors and aircon devices MUST NOT chang=
e since the
remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are permanently paired to the=
 IPv6 addresses of
lights, garage doors and aircon devices on the application level.
Only ULA prefixes provide that stability, yet ability to route within the h=
ome.
The lights, garage doors and aircon devices MAY also have global prefixes f=
or external use by
portals and advanced clients.

Thanks,
  Anders


From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of L=
orenzo Colitti
Sent: 24. maj 2013 13:42
To: Liubing (Leo)
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.o=
rg
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-us=
age-recommendations

On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com<mail=
to:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
 V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which doe=
sn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or N=
D." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support =
manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't support=
 automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough reso=
urces to implement a UI for manual address assignment?
[Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, ther=
e might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for the nod=
es. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the embedded=
 system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-generating a UL=
A, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address provisioning proc=
edures.
How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to com=
municate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, you can =
just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support router adv=
ertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, then they ca=
n use autoconfiguration.
[Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it's a basic IPv6 function , the =
draft specifically noted this point.  But if the sensors are in a MANET, th=
en the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional wired SLAAC, sin=
ce MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable for this scenari=
o, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear, will modify later.

If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, because t=
hey can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they can autoconf=
igure an address, they can use a global address. So there is no need to use=
 ULA.

[Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let's do not mix the concepts of global add=
r-provisioning and autoconfiguration together.

Why is it flawed? You said that a use case for ULA is resource-constrained =
nodes, because you can pre-assign addresses to them, and that this simplifi=
es the nodes. But it doesn't simplify the nodes, because even if you pre-as=
sign addresses, the nodes still need some mechanism (e.g., RA) in order to =
find out who you can communicate to. So the nodes have to support RAs. And =
if the nodes support RA, you can use autoconfiguration and you don't need t=
o pre-assign addresses. So you can use any type of address, not only ULA. S=
o this is not a use case for ULA.

And in MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see http://tools.ietf.org=
/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.2

That draft expired in 2008, so it's not really relevant. Do you have a more=
 up-to-date document?

On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com<mail=
to:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
Hi, Lorenzo

From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com<mailto:lorenzo@google.com>=
]
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 PM

To: Liubing (Leo)
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recom=
mendations@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations=
@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-us=
age-recommendations

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com<mail=
to:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193 section 3.2=
.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if you generate 10000 ULAs you'l=
l get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate 100000 (e.g., if you reg=
enerate them once a second, for one day) you'll get a collision once in 100=
0 times. And so on.
[Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where do we need =
to change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can hardly imagine a us=
e case of that.

This is a technical document meant to provide guidance, so I'd say that it'=
s not appropriate to use vague words like regularly "regularly", without st=
ating what they mean to state what it means. Can I generate 10000 ULAs per =
second, as long as I do it "regularly"? Likely not.

So you either remove the text, or state that if ULAs are generated regularl=
y, then collisions are possible, and perhaps provide provide an example tha=
t calculates the probability of collision with some reasonal value of the r=
egeneration interval.

[Bing] OK, I'll refine the word.

 V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which doe=
sn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or N=
D." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support =
manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't support=
 automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough reso=
urces to implement a UI for manual address assignment?
[Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, ther=
e might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for the nod=
es. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the embedded=
 system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-generating a UL=
A, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address provisioning proc=
edures.
How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to com=
municate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, you can =
just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support router adv=
ertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, then they ca=
n use autoconfiguration.
[Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it's a basic IPv6 function , the =
draft specifically noted this point.  But if the sensors are in a MANET, th=
en the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional wired SLAAC, sin=
ce MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable for this scenari=
o, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear, will modify later.

If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, because t=
hey can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they can autoconf=
igure an address, they can use a global address. So there is no need to use=
 ULA.

[Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let's do not mix the concepts of global add=
r-provisioning and autoconfiguration together. And in MANET, the SLAAC is n=
ot (fully)applicable, see http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-st=
atement-04.html#section-5.2

VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes terrib=
le operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; the multip=
le- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 protocol. Runni=
ng multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need to adapt thi=
s new operational model than that in IPv4." This text does not make sense. =
Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6 do=
esn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope addresses. For example,=
 you can use only global addresses and have no routing complexity.
[Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.
One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixe=
s in a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins need to be =
familiar with it in the future.
No, because having multiple prefixes introduces operational complexity even=
 if the admins understand multiple prefixes. All things being equal, having=
 only one prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be simpler than=
 having two.

In other words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity, because adm=
ins will need to understand the complexity anyway". What I'm saying is that=
 while they need to understand the complexity, we don't have to create the =
complexity if we don't need it.
[Bing] No, I'm not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial use case in=
 6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity if they wan=
t the benefit.

Ok, so then just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off betwee=
n complexity and functionality, and leave it at that?
[Bing] A brief complexity hint would be valuable. Thanks.

B.R.
Bing


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<body lang=3D"DA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div class=3D"WordSection1">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi Lorenzo<o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Ca=
libri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span><=
/p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; So you can use any type of=
 address, not only ULA. So this is not a use case for ULA.<o:p></o:p></span=
></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The ULA reasoning starts elsewh=
ere. It is tied to a deployment use case:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">When nodes are installed in a n=
ew house, there may be no internet connectivity - and even more importantly=
:<br>
Even if there is internet connectivity, then you can be certain that at som=
e time, the ISP will change your<br>
assigned prefix.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This is critical to certain 6Lo=
WPAN applications such as home automation.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Remote controls, sensors and wa=
ll controllers are spread all over the house.<br>
They control lights, garage doors and aircon devices.<br>
<br>
<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The addresses of the lights, ga=
rage doors and aircon devices MUST NOT change since the<br>
remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are permanently paired to the=
 IPv6 addresses of<br>
lights, garage doors and aircon devices on the application level.<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Only ULA prefixes provide that =
stability, yet ability to route within the home.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">The lights, garage doors and ai=
rcon devices MAY also have global prefixes for external use by<br>
portals and advanced clients.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp; Anders<o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:11.0pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org=
]
<b>On Behalf Of </b>Lorenzo Colitti<br>
<b>Sent:</b> 24. maj 2013 13:42<br>
<b>To:</b> Liubing (Leo)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> v6ops@ietf.org; draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools=
.ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops=
-ula-usage-recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">leo.liubing@huaw=
ei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">&nbsp;V.=
 &quot;the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which d=
oesn't need much code to support address assignment
 mechanisms like DHCP or ND.&quot; I don't think this makes sense. Are you =
saying such nodes only support manual address assignment? How is it possibl=
e that a sensor doesn't support automatic address assignment due to lack of=
 resources, but has enough resources
 to implement a UI for manual address assignment?</span><span style=3D"mso-=
fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">[Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment=
, there might not be a comprehensive network
 provisioning environment for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with=
 ULA, say, hard-coded in the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in eve=
ry single NIC or self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc network=
ing without address provisioning
 procedures.</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">How are =
those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to communicate=
 off-link? If they can't do this, then you
 don't need ULA, you can just use link-local. If they can do this, then the=
y must support router advertisements or similar. If they support router adv=
ertisements, then they can use autoconfiguration.&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">[Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it&#8217;s a basic IPv6 fun=
ction , the draft specifically noted this point.
 &nbsp;But if the sensors are in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is dif=
ferent with the traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi ho=
p topology. ULA is suitable for this scenario, however, current text seems =
not sufficient/clear, will modify later.</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-l=
anguage:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">If they =
support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, because they can =
just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses.
 And if they can autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. S=
o there is no need to use ULA.</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-C=
N">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">[Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let&#8217;s do not mix the concepts o=
f global addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration
 together.</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">Why is it flawed? You said that a use case for ULA i=
s resource-constrained nodes, because you can pre-assign addresses to them,=
 and that this simplifies the nodes. But it doesn't simplify the nodes, bec=
ause even if you pre-assign addresses,
 the nodes still need some mechanism (e.g., RA) in order to find out who yo=
u can communicate to. So the nodes have to support RAs. And if the nodes su=
pport RA, you can use autoconfiguration and you don't need to pre-assign ad=
dresses. So you can use any type
 of address, not only ULA. So this is not a use case for ULA.<o:p></o:p></p=
>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">And in MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html=
#section-5.2" target=3D"_blank">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.=
2</a></span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">That draft expired in 2008, so it's not really relev=
ant. Do you have a more up-to-date document?<o:p></o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal">On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<=
a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">leo.liubing@huaw=
ei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-C=
N">Hi, Lorenzo</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-C=
N">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">From:</sp=
an></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tah=
oma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">
 Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_b=
lank">lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 PM</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-=
language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><br>
<b>To:</b> Liubing (Leo)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.o=
rg</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops=
-ula-usage-recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">On Tue, =
May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@hu=
awei.com" target=3D"_blank">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt;
 wrote:</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span>=
</p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">No, the =
probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193 section 3.2.3. If I=
'm reading that section correctly, if you
 generate 10000 ULAs you'll get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generat=
e 100000 (e.g., if you regenerate them once a second, for one day) you'll g=
et a collision once in 1000 times. And so on.</span><span style=3D"mso-fare=
ast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">[Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where do we=
 need to change the ULA so frequently? For
 random draw? I can hardly imagine a use case of that.</span><span style=3D=
"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">This is =
a technical document meant to provide guidance, so I'd say that it's not ap=
propriate to use vague words like regularly
 &quot;regularly&quot;, without stating what they mean to state what it mea=
ns. Can I generate 10000 ULAs per second, as long as I do it &quot;regularl=
y&quot;? Likely not.</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">So you e=
ither remove the text, or state that if ULAs are generated regularly, then =
collisions are possible, and perhaps provide
 provide an example that calculates the probability of collision with some =
reasonal value of the regeneration interval.</span><span style=3D"mso-farea=
st-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-C=
N">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">[Bing] OK, I&#8217;ll refine the word.</span><span style=3D"mso-farea=
st-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">&nbsp;V.=
 &quot;the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which d=
oesn't need much code to support address assignment
 mechanisms like DHCP or ND.&quot; I don't think this makes sense. Are you =
saying such nodes only support manual address assignment? How is it possibl=
e that a sensor doesn't support automatic address assignment due to lack of=
 resources, but has enough resources
 to implement a UI for manual address assignment?</span><span style=3D"mso-=
fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">[Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment=
, there might not be a comprehensive network
 provisioning environment for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with=
 ULA, say, hard-coded in the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in eve=
ry single NIC or self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc network=
ing without address provisioning
 procedures.</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">How are =
those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to communicate=
 off-link? If they can't do this, then you
 don't need ULA, you can just use link-local. If they can do this, then the=
y must support router advertisements or similar. If they support router adv=
ertisements, then they can use autoconfiguration.&nbsp;</span><span style=
=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">[Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it&#8217;s a basic IPv6 fun=
ction , the draft specifically noted this point.
 &nbsp;But if the sensors are in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is dif=
ferent with the traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi ho=
p topology. ULA is suitable for this scenario, however, current text seems =
not sufficient/clear, will modify later.</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-l=
anguage:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">If they =
support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, because they can =
just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses.
 And if they can autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. S=
o there is no need to use ULA.</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH=
-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:ZH-C=
N">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">[Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let&#8217;s do not mix the concepts o=
f global addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration
 together. And in MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see <a href=3D=
"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5=
.2" target=3D"_blank">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.=
2</a></span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></=
p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#500050;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">VI. &quot;there always be some argument that in practice the ULA&#43;=
PA makes terrible operational complexity. But it
 is not a ULA-specific problem; the multiple- addresses-per-interface is an=
 important feature of IPv6 protocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 migh=
t be very common, and we need to adapt this new operational model than that=
 in IPv4.&quot; This text does not make
 sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a feature of=
 IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope addresses. For =
example, you can use only global addresses and have no routing complexity.<=
/span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">[Bing] The ULA&#43;PA operational complexity contains two aspect.</sp=
an><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple p=
refixes in a network is new to the traditional
 IPv4 model, the admins need to be familiar with it in the future.</span><s=
pan style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">No, beca=
use having multiple prefixes introduces operational complexity even if the =
admins understand multiple prefixes. All
 things being equal, having only one prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is alwa=
ys going to be simpler than having two.</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-la=
nguage:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">In other=
 words: what you're saying is &quot;let's create complexity, because admins=
 will need to understand the complexity anyway&quot;.
 What I'm saying is that while they need to understand the complexity, we d=
on't have to create the complexity if we don't need it.</span><span style=
=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">[Bing] No, I&#8217;m not say that. ULA&#43;PA is identified as benefi=
cial use case in 6renum and Homenet. So the admins
 need to adapt the complexity if they want the benefit.</span><span style=
=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">&nbsp;</=
span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN">Ok, so t=
hen just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off between comple=
xity and functionality, and leave it at
 that?</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">[Bing] A brief complexity hint would be valuable. Thanks.</span><span=
 style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">&nbsp;</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></=
span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">B.R.</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D;mso-fareast-language:Z=
H-CN">Bing</span><span style=3D"mso-fareast-language:ZH-CN"><o:p></o:p></sp=
an></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On May 24, 2013, at 05:30 , Anders Brandt =
<Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.com> wrote:

> Hi Lorenzo
> =20
> > So you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is not a =
use case for ULA.
> =20
> The ULA reasoning starts elsewhere. It is tied to a deployment use =
case:
> =20
> When nodes are installed in a new house, there may be no internet =
connectivity - and even more importantly:
> Even if there is internet connectivity, then you can be certain that =
at some time, the ISP will change your
> assigned prefix.

Why can you be certain of that? I understand why you cannot be certain =
that they won't. But I do not understand or believe that you can be =
certain that they will.

However, even in such a case, the router should provide the ULA in an =
RA. There is no need to preconfigure ULA into the node in question =
rather than use autoconfiguration.

> This is critical to certain 6LoWPAN applications such as home =
automation.
> Remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are spread all over the =
house.
> They control lights, garage doors and aircon devices.

That doesn't mean that they don't need to support RA or that they cannot =
autoconfigure an address. There is no valid reason these devices should =
have burned-in ULA. Such an addressing scheme would, in fact, be quite =
dysfunctional.

> The addresses of the lights, garage doors and aircon devices MUST NOT =
change since the
> remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are permanently paired =
to the IPv6 addresses of
> lights, garage doors and aircon devices on the application level.

That's just really, REALLY bad application design. How do all of these =
ULA prefixes get properly routed when the devices are moved from one =
segment in the home to another? Do you add a giant layer of MIP =
complexity to the ULA in order to make that all work?

The smaller devices need to be paired with the oversight application(s). =
Those application(s) should provide the required directory services for =
them to obtain the IPv6 address(es) of other devices they need to =
communicate with. (The oversight application could be as simple as a =
dynamic DNS server or as complex as a centralized home automation =
management application. Whether support for pairing with more than one =
oversight application is required is left as an exercise for the device =
manufacturers.

> Only ULA prefixes provide that stability, yet ability to route within =
the home.
> The lights, garage doors and aircon devices MAY also have global =
prefixes for external use by
> portals and advanced clients.

ULA prefixes can't provide that stability, either. Burning a prefix into =
a device is just bad juju from start to end.

It will lead to some of the same problems we have with similar systems =
in IPv4 where applications have built-in assumption that the network is =
not segmented and therefore do not function in environments where it is.

If you burn a pre-determined ULA prefix into devices, then you either:
	1)
		a)	Presume all devices that should talk to each =
other are on the same link.
		b)	Presume that all devices on the same link should =
talk to each other.
		c)	Break installations where multiple parts of the =
system are on different segments.
or
	2)
		a)	Require significant overhead and additional =
facilities (such as MIP) to make communication possible.
		b)	Create unnecessary external dependencies
		c)	Complicate and expand the codebase on resource =
constrained nodes.

Owen

> =20
> Thanks,
>   Anders
> =20
> =20
> From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf =
Of Lorenzo Colitti
> Sent: 24. maj 2013 13:42
> To: Liubing (Leo)
> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
> =20
> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) =
<leo.liubing@huawei.com> wrote:
>  V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing =
which doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms =
like DHCP or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such =
nodes only support manual address assignment? How is it possible that a =
sensor doesn't support automatic address assignment due to lack of =
resources, but has enough resources to implement a UI for manual address =
assignment?
> [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, =
there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for =
the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in =
the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or =
self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without =
address provisioning procedures.
> How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router =
to communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, =
you can just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support =
router advertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, =
then they can use autoconfiguration.=20
> [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it=92s a basic IPv6 function =
, the draft specifically noted this point.  But if the sensors are in a =
MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional =
wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is =
suitable for this scenario, however, current text seems not =
sufficient/clear, will modify later.
> =20
> If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, =
because they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they =
can autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So there is =
no need to use ULA.
> =20
> [Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let=92s do not mix the concepts of =
global addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together.
> =20
> Why is it flawed? You said that a use case for ULA is =
resource-constrained nodes, because you can pre-assign addresses to =
them, and that this simplifies the nodes. But it doesn't simplify the =
nodes, because even if you pre-assign addresses, the nodes still need =
some mechanism (e.g., RA) in order to find out who you can communicate =
to. So the nodes have to support RAs. And if the nodes support RA, you =
can use autoconfiguration and you don't need to pre-assign addresses. So =
you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is not a use case =
for ULA.
> =20
> And in MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5=
.2
> =20
> That draft expired in 2008, so it's not really relevant. Do you have a =
more up-to-date document?
> =20
>=20
> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) =
<leo.liubing@huawei.com> wrote:
> Hi, Lorenzo
> =20
> From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]=20
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 PM
>=20
> To: Liubing (Leo)
> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
> =20
> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Liubing (Leo) =
<leo.liubing@huawei.com> wrote:
> No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193 =
section 3.2.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if you generate =
10000 ULAs you'll get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate =
100000 (e.g., if you regenerate them once a second, for one day) you'll =
get a collision once in 1000 times. And so on.
> [Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where do we =
need to change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can hardly =
imagine a use case of that.
> =20
> This is a technical document meant to provide guidance, so I'd say =
that it's not appropriate to use vague words like regularly "regularly", =
without stating what they mean to state what it means. Can I generate =
10000 ULAs per second, as long as I do it "regularly"? Likely not.
> =20
> So you either remove the text, or state that if ULAs are generated =
regularly, then collisions are possible, and perhaps provide provide an =
example that calculates the probability of collision with some reasonal =
value of the regeneration interval.
> =20
> [Bing] OK, I=92ll refine the word.
> =20
>  V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing =
which doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms =
like DHCP or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such =
nodes only support manual address assignment? How is it possible that a =
sensor doesn't support automatic address assignment due to lack of =
resources, but has enough resources to implement a UI for manual address =
assignment?
> [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, =
there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for =
the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in =
the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or =
self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without =
address provisioning procedures.
> How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router =
to communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, =
you can just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support =
router advertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, =
then they can use autoconfiguration.=20
> [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it=92s a basic IPv6 function =
, the draft specifically noted this point.  But if the sensors are in a =
MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional =
wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is =
suitable for this scenario, however, current text seems not =
sufficient/clear, will modify later.
> =20
> If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, =
because they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they =
can autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So there is =
no need to use ULA.
> =20
> [Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let=92s do not mix the concepts of =
global addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together. And in MANET, =
the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5=
.2
> =20
> VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes =
terrible operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; =
the multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 =
protocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we =
need to adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4." This text =
does not make sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses =
is a feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have multiple =
global-scope addresses. For example, you can use only global addresses =
and have no routing complexity.
> [Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.
> One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple =
prefixes in a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins =
need to be familiar with it in the future.
> No, because having multiple prefixes introduces operational complexity =
even if the admins understand multiple prefixes. All things being equal, =
having only one prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be =
simpler than having two.
> =20
> In other words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity, =
because admins will need to understand the complexity anyway". What I'm =
saying is that while they need to understand the complexity, we don't =
have to create the complexity if we don't need it.
> [Bing] No, I=92m not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial use =
case in 6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity =
if they want the benefit.
> =20
> Ok, so then just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off =
between complexity and functionality, and leave it at that?
> [Bing] A brief complexity hint would be valuable. Thanks.
> =20
> B.R.
> Bing
> =20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><br><div><div>On May 24, 2013, at 05:30 , Anders Brandt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.com">Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
lang=3D"DA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Hi =
Lorenzo<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; So you can use any type of address, not only =
ULA. So this is not a use case for ULA.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">The ULA reasoning starts =
elsewhere. It is tied to a deployment use =
case:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">When nodes are installed in a new house, there =
may be no internet connectivity - and even more importantly:<br>Even if =
there is internet connectivity, then you can be certain that at some =
time, the ISP will change your<br>assigned =
prefix.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Why can you =
be certain of that? I understand why you cannot be certain that they =
won't. But I do not understand or believe that you can be certain that =
they will.</div><div><br></div><div>However, even in such a case, the =
router should provide the ULA in an RA. There is no need to preconfigure =
ULA into the node in question rather than use =
autoconfiguration.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
lang=3D"DA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">This is critical to certain =
6LoWPAN applications such as home =
automation.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are =
spread all over the house.<br>They control lights, garage doors and =
aircon =
devices.<br></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>That =
doesn't mean that they don't need to support RA or that they cannot =
autoconfigure an address. There is no valid reason these devices should =
have burned-in ULA. Such an addressing scheme would, in fact, be quite =
dysfunctional.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"DA" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">The addresses of =
the lights, garage doors and aircon devices MUST NOT change since =
the</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">remote =
controls, sensors and wall controllers are permanently paired to the =
IPv6 addresses of<br>lights, garage doors and aircon devices on the =
application =
level.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>That's just =
really, REALLY bad application design. How do all of these ULA prefixes =
get properly routed when the devices are moved from one segment in the =
home to another? Do you add a giant layer of MIP complexity to the ULA =
in order to make that all work?</div><div><br></div><div>The smaller =
devices need to be paired with the oversight application(s). Those =
application(s) should provide the required directory services for them =
to obtain the IPv6 address(es) of other devices they need to communicate =
with. (The oversight application could be as simple as a dynamic DNS =
server or as complex as a centralized home automation management =
application. Whether support for pairing with more than one oversight =
application is required is left as an exercise for the device =
manufacturers.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"DA" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">Only ULA prefixes provide that =
stability, yet ability to route within the =
home.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">The lights, garage doors and aircon devices MAY also have =
global prefixes for external use by<br>portals and advanced =
clients.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>ULA =
prefixes can't provide that stability, either. Burning a prefix into a =
device is just bad juju from start to end.</div><div><br></div><div>It =
will lead to some of the same problems we have with similar systems in =
IPv4 where applications have built-in assumption that the network is not =
segmented and therefore do not function in environments where it =
is.</div><div><br></div><div>If you burn a pre-determined ULA prefix =
into devices, then you either:</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>1)</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>a)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Presume all devices that should talk to each other are on the =
same link.</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>b)<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Presume =
that all devices on the same link should talk to each =
other.</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
		</span>c)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Break installations where =
multiple parts of the system are on different =
segments.</div><div>or</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>2)</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>a)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Require significant overhead and additional facilities (such as =
MIP) to make communication possible.</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>b)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Create unnecessary external dependencies</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>c)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Complicate and expand the codebase on resource constrained =
nodes.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"DA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp; Anders<o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm =
4pt; "><div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: =
3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; =
">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org">v6ops-bounces@ietf.org</a> =
[mailto:v6ops-<a =
href=3D"mailto:bounces@ietf.org">bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Lorenzo =
Colitti<br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>24. maj 2013 =
13:42<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Liubing =
(Leo)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org">=
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org</a><br><b>Subjec=
t:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [v6ops] A =
brief intro-//RE: new draft: =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></=
div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On =
Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; ">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none =
none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, =
204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm; =
"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: =
1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; =
"><div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: =
0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; "><div style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; "><div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; "><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; "><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;V. "the network needs =
ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which doesn't need much code =
to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND." I don't think =
this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual address =
assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't support automatic =
address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough resources to =
implement a UI for manual address =
assignment?</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); ">[Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network =
environment, there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning =
environment for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, =
hard-coded in the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every =
single NIC or self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc =
networking without address provisioning =
procedures.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><=
/div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">How are =
those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to =
communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, =
you can just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support =
router advertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, =
then they can use =
autoconfiguration.&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); ">[Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it=92s a basic IPv6 =
function , the draft specifically noted this point. &nbsp;But if the =
sensors are in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the =
traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. =
ULA is suitable for this scenario, however, current text seems not =
sufficient/clear, will modify =
later.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">If they =
support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, because they =
can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they can =
autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So there is no =
need to use ULA.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Bing] =
The reasoning is flawed. Let=92s do not mix the concepts of global =
addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration =
together.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">Why is it flawed? You said that a use case for ULA =
is resource-constrained nodes, because you can pre-assign addresses to =
them, and that this simplifies the nodes. But it doesn't simplify the =
nodes, because even if you pre-assign addresses, the nodes still need =
some mechanism (e.g., RA) in order to find out who you can communicate =
to. So the nodes have to support RAs. And if the nodes support RA, you =
can use autoconfiguration and you don't need to pre-assign addresses. So =
you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is not a use case =
for ULA.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0cm; "><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm =
4pt; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">And in MANET, the SLAAC is not =
(fully)applicable, see<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#s=
ection-5.2" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; =
">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section=
-5.2</a></span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">That draft expired in 2008, so it's not really =
relevant. Do you have a more up-to-date =
document?<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On =
Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; ">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Hi, =
Lorenzo</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; "><div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; ">lorenzo@google.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 =
PM</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span><br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Liubing =
(Leo)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; ">v6ops@ietf.org</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; =
">draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org</a><br><b>Subj=
ect:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [v6ops] A =
brief intro-//RE: new draft: =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></=
div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 =
PM, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; =
">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; "><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm =
4pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">No, the =
probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193 section 3.2.3. =
If I'm reading that section correctly, if you generate 10000 ULAs you'll =
get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate 100000 (e.g., if you =
regenerate them once a second, for one day) you'll get a collision once =
in 1000 times. And so on.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); ">[Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where =
do we need to change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can =
hardly imagine a use case of =
that.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">This is a technical document =
meant to provide guidance, so I'd say that it's not appropriate to use =
vague words like regularly "regularly", without stating what they mean =
to state what it means. Can I generate 10000 ULAs per second, as long as =
I do it "regularly"? Likely =
not.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">So you =
either remove the text, or state that if ULAs are generated regularly, =
then collisions are possible, and perhaps provide provide an example =
that calculates the probability of collision with some reasonal value of =
the regeneration interval.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Bing] =
OK, I=92ll refine the =
word.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><blockquot=
e style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; "><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm =
4pt; "><div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: =
0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; "><div style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and =
stable addressing which doesn't need much code to support address =
assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND." I don't think this makes sense. =
Are you saying such nodes only support manual address assignment? How is =
it possible that a sensor doesn't support automatic address assignment =
due to lack of resources, but has enough resources to implement a UI for =
manual address =
assignment?</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); ">[Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network =
environment, there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning =
environment for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, =
hard-coded in the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every =
single NIC or self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc =
networking without address provisioning =
procedures.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><=
/div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">How are =
those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to =
communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, =
you can just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support =
router advertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, =
then they can use =
autoconfiguration.&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); ">[Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it=92s a basic IPv6 =
function , the draft specifically noted this point. &nbsp;But if the =
sensors are in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the =
traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. =
ULA is suitable for this scenario, however, current text seems not =
sufficient/clear, will modify =
later.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">If they =
support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, because they =
can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they can =
autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So there is no =
need to use ULA.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Bing] =
The reasoning is flawed. Let=92s do not mix the concepts of global =
addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together. And in MANET, the =
SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#s=
ection-5.2" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; =
">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section=
-5.2</a></span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><blockquot=
e style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; "><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm =
4pt; "><div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: =
0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; "><div style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(80, 0, 80); ">VI. "there always be =
some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes terrible operational =
complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; the multiple- =
addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 protocol. =
Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need to =
adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4." This text does not =
make sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a =
feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope =
addresses. For example, you can use only global addresses and have no =
routing complexity.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); ">[Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two =
aspect.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">One is the =
common issue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixes in a =
network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins need to be =
familiar with it in the =
future.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">No, because having =
multiple prefixes introduces operational complexity even if the admins =
understand multiple prefixes. All things being equal, having only one =
prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be simpler than having =
two.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">In other =
words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity, because admins =
will need to understand the complexity anyway". What I'm saying is that =
while they need to understand the complexity, we don't have to create =
the complexity if we don't need =
it.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Bing] No, =
I=92m not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial use case in =
6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity if they =
want the =
benefit.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ok, so =
then just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off between =
complexity and functionality, and leave it at =
that?</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Bing] =
A brief complexity hint would be valuable. =
Thanks.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">B.R.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">Bing</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div>_______________________________=
________________<br>v6ops mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/v6ops</div></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

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Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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In-line...

On 24 May 2013, at 16:53, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:

>=20
> On May 24, 2013, at 05:30 , Anders Brandt =
<Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.com> wrote:
>=20
>> Hi Lorenzo
>> =20
>> > So you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is not a =
use case for ULA.
>> =20
>> The ULA reasoning starts elsewhere. It is tied to a deployment use =
case:
>> =20
>> When nodes are installed in a new house, there may be no internet =
connectivity - and even more importantly:
>> Even if there is internet connectivity, then you can be certain that =
at some time, the ISP will change your
>> assigned prefix.
>=20
> Why can you be certain of that? I understand why you cannot be certain =
that they won't. But I do not understand or believe that you can be =
certain that they will.
>=20
> However, even in such a case, the router should provide the ULA in an =
RA. There is no need to preconfigure ULA into the node in question =
rather than use autoconfiguration.

So in the homenet context we're listening to what the people building =
the constrained devices are telling us.

The ISPs are saying that it is very unlikely that the homenet's prefix =
will be persistent.  Certainly not in all cases.

The homenet arch assumes the use of ULAs for internal communications and =
stablity, and that ULA prefixes will be used in RAs.  Alongside GUA =
prefixes where they are also in use.

It may be that certain home gateways generate their own ULA /48's. The =
homenet arch talks about multiple ULA /48's potentially being in use.

>> This is critical to certain 6LoWPAN applications such as home =
automation.
>> Remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are spread all over the =
house.
>> They control lights, garage doors and aircon devices.
>=20
> That doesn't mean that they don't need to support RA or that they =
cannot autoconfigure an address. There is no valid reason these devices =
should have burned-in ULA. Such an addressing scheme would, in fact, be =
quite dysfunctional.

Do all 6lowpan devices support RA in the conventional sense?  Or when =
sleeping?

>> The addresses of the lights, garage doors and aircon devices MUST NOT =
change since the
>> remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are permanently paired =
to the IPv6 addresses of
>> lights, garage doors and aircon devices on the application level.
>=20
> That's just really, REALLY bad application design. How do all of these =
ULA prefixes get properly routed when the devices are moved from one =
segment in the home to another? Do you add a giant layer of MIP =
complexity to the ULA in order to make that all work?
>=20
> The smaller devices need to be paired with the oversight =
application(s). Those application(s) should provide the required =
directory services for them to obtain the IPv6 address(es) of other =
devices they need to communicate with. (The oversight application could =
be as simple as a dynamic DNS server or as complex as a centralized home =
automation management application. Whether support for pairing with more =
than one oversight application is required is left as an exercise for =
the device manufacturers.

So this would be the desired model of course, but what are the actual =
constraints?

>> Only ULA prefixes provide that stability, yet ability to route within =
the home.
>> The lights, garage doors and aircon devices MAY also have global =
prefixes for external use by
>> portals and advanced clients.
>=20
> ULA prefixes can't provide that stability, either. Burning a prefix =
into a device is just bad juju from start to end.
>=20
> It will lead to some of the same problems we have with similar systems =
in IPv4 where applications have built-in assumption that the network is =
not segmented and therefore do not function in environments where it is.
>=20
> If you burn a pre-determined ULA prefix into devices, then you either:
> 	1)
> 		a)	Presume all devices that should talk to each =
other are on the same link.
> 		b)	Presume that all devices on the same link should =
talk to each other.
> 		c)	Break installations where multiple parts of the =
system are on different segments.
> or
> 	2)
> 		a)	Require significant overhead and additional =
facilities (such as MIP) to make communication possible.
> 		b)	Create unnecessary external dependencies
> 		c)	Complicate and expand the codebase on resource =
constrained nodes.

In case 1) above the "burnt in" ULA could potentially still communicate =
across routers. I believe that's the case Anders refers to.

But again, I agree that "burnt in" addresses are highly undesirable, but =
are there scenarios where they are unavoidable? Perhaps we're asking in =
the wrong list.

Tim

>=20
> Owen
>=20
>> =20
>> Thanks,
>>   Anders
>> =20
>> =20
>> From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On =
Behalf Of Lorenzo Colitti
>> Sent: 24. maj 2013 13:42
>> To: Liubing (Leo)
>> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
>> =20
>> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) =
<leo.liubing@huawei.com> wrote:
>>  V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing =
which doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms =
like DHCP or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such =
nodes only support manual address assignment? How is it possible that a =
sensor doesn't support automatic address assignment due to lack of =
resources, but has enough resources to implement a UI for manual address =
assignment?
>> [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network =
environment, there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning =
environment for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, =
hard-coded in the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every =
single NIC or self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc =
networking without address provisioning procedures.
>> How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router =
to communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, =
you can just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support =
router advertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, =
then they can use autoconfiguration.=20
>> [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it=92s a basic IPv6 =
function , the draft specifically noted this point.  But if the sensors =
are in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the =
traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. =
ULA is suitable for this scenario, however, current text seems not =
sufficient/clear, will modify later.
>> =20
>> If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, =
because they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they =
can autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So there is =
no need to use ULA.
>> =20
>> [Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let=92s do not mix the concepts of =
global addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together.
>> =20
>> Why is it flawed? You said that a use case for ULA is =
resource-constrained nodes, because you can pre-assign addresses to =
them, and that this simplifies the nodes. But it doesn't simplify the =
nodes, because even if you pre-assign addresses, the nodes still need =
some mechanism (e.g., RA) in order to find out who you can communicate =
to. So the nodes have to support RAs. And if the nodes support RA, you =
can use autoconfiguration and you don't need to pre-assign addresses. So =
you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is not a use case =
for ULA.
>> =20
>> And in MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5=
.2
>> =20
>> That draft expired in 2008, so it's not really relevant. Do you have =
a more up-to-date document?
>> =20
>>=20
>> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) =
<leo.liubing@huawei.com> wrote:
>> Hi, Lorenzo
>> =20
>> From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]=20
>> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 PM
>>=20
>> To: Liubing (Leo)
>> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
>> =20
>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Liubing (Leo) =
<leo.liubing@huawei.com> wrote:
>> No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193 =
section 3.2.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if you generate =
10000 ULAs you'll get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate =
100000 (e.g., if you regenerate them once a second, for one day) you'll =
get a collision once in 1000 times. And so on.
>> [Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where do we =
need to change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can hardly =
imagine a use case of that.
>> =20
>> This is a technical document meant to provide guidance, so I'd say =
that it's not appropriate to use vague words like regularly "regularly", =
without stating what they mean to state what it means. Can I generate =
10000 ULAs per second, as long as I do it "regularly"? Likely not.
>> =20
>> So you either remove the text, or state that if ULAs are generated =
regularly, then collisions are possible, and perhaps provide provide an =
example that calculates the probability of collision with some reasonal =
value of the regeneration interval.
>> =20
>> [Bing] OK, I=92ll refine the word.
>> =20
>>  V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing =
which doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms =
like DHCP or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such =
nodes only support manual address assignment? How is it possible that a =
sensor doesn't support automatic address assignment due to lack of =
resources, but has enough resources to implement a UI for manual address =
assignment?
>> [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network =
environment, there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning =
environment for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, =
hard-coded in the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every =
single NIC or self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc =
networking without address provisioning procedures.
>> How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router =
to communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, =
you can just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support =
router advertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, =
then they can use autoconfiguration.=20
>> [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it=92s a basic IPv6 =
function , the draft specifically noted this point.  But if the sensors =
are in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the =
traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. =
ULA is suitable for this scenario, however, current text seems not =
sufficient/clear, will modify later.
>> =20
>> If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, =
because they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they =
can autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So there is =
no need to use ULA.
>> =20
>> [Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let=92s do not mix the concepts of =
global addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together. And in MANET, =
the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5=
.2
>> =20
>> VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes =
terrible operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; =
the multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 =
protocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we =
need to adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4." This text =
does not make sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses =
is a feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have multiple =
global-scope addresses. For example, you can use only global addresses =
and have no routing complexity.
>> [Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.
>> One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple =
prefixes in a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins =
need to be familiar with it in the future.
>> No, because having multiple prefixes introduces operational =
complexity even if the admins understand multiple prefixes. All things =
being equal, having only one prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always =
going to be simpler than having two.
>> =20
>> In other words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity, =
because admins will need to understand the complexity anyway". What I'm =
saying is that while they need to understand the complexity, we don't =
have to create the complexity if we don't need it.
>> [Bing] No, I=92m not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial use =
case in 6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity =
if they want the benefit.
>> =20
>> Ok, so then just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off =
between complexity and functionality, and leave it at that?
>> [Bing] A brief complexity hint would be valuable. Thanks.
>> =20
>> B.R.
>> Bing
>> =20
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><div>In-line...</div><div><br></div><div>On 24 May 2013, at =
16:53, Owen DeLong &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><br><div><div>On May 24, 2013, at 05:30 , Anders Brandt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.com">Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
lang=3D"DA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Hi =
Lorenzo<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; So you can use any type of address, not only =
ULA. So this is not a use case for ULA.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">The ULA reasoning starts =
elsewhere. It is tied to a deployment use =
case:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">When nodes are installed in a new house, there =
may be no internet connectivity - and even more importantly:<br>Even if =
there is internet connectivity, then you can be certain that at some =
time, the ISP will change your<br>assigned =
prefix.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Why can you =
be certain of that? I understand why you cannot be certain that they =
won't. But I do not understand or believe that you can be certain that =
they will.</div><div><br></div><div>However, even in such a case, the =
router should provide the ULA in an RA. There is no need to preconfigure =
ULA into the node in question rather than use =
autoconfiguration.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>So in the =
homenet context we're listening to what the people building the =
constrained devices are telling us.</div><div><br></div><div>The ISPs =
are saying that it is very unlikely that the homenet's prefix will be =
persistent. &nbsp;Certainly not in all =
cases.</div><div><br></div><div>The homenet arch assumes the use of ULAs =
for internal communications and stablity, and that ULA prefixes will be =
used in RAs. &nbsp;Alongside GUA prefixes where they are also in =
use.</div><div><br></div><div>It may be that certain home gateways =
generate their own ULA /48's. The homenet arch talks about multiple ULA =
/48's potentially being in use.</div><div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"DA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">This is critical to certain =
6LoWPAN applications such as home =
automation.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are =
spread all over the house.<br>They control lights, garage doors and =
aircon =
devices.<br></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>That =
doesn't mean that they don't need to support RA or that they cannot =
autoconfigure an address. There is no valid reason these devices should =
have burned-in ULA. Such an addressing scheme would, in fact, be quite =
dysfunctional.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Do all 6lowpan =
devices support RA in the conventional sense? &nbsp;Or when =
sleeping?</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap:=
 break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: =
after-white-space; "><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"DA" =
link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; =
font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">The addresses of =
the lights, garage doors and aircon devices MUST NOT change since =
the</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">remote =
controls, sensors and wall controllers are permanently paired to the =
IPv6 addresses of<br>lights, garage doors and aircon devices on the =
application =
level.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>That's just =
really, REALLY bad application design. How do all of these ULA prefixes =
get properly routed when the devices are moved from one segment in the =
home to another? Do you add a giant layer of MIP complexity to the ULA =
in order to make that all work?</div><div><br></div><div>The smaller =
devices need to be paired with the oversight application(s). Those =
application(s) should provide the required directory services for them =
to obtain the IPv6 address(es) of other devices they need to communicate =
with. (The oversight application could be as simple as a dynamic DNS =
server or as complex as a centralized home automation management =
application. Whether support for pairing with more than one oversight =
application is required is left as an exercise for the device =
manufacturers.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>So this would be =
the desired model of course, but what are the actual =
constraints?</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"DA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">Only ULA prefixes provide that =
stability, yet ability to route within the =
home.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">The lights, garage doors and aircon devices MAY also have =
global prefixes for external use by<br>portals and advanced =
clients.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>ULA =
prefixes can't provide that stability, either. Burning a prefix into a =
device is just bad juju from start to end.</div><div><br></div><div>It =
will lead to some of the same problems we have with similar systems in =
IPv4 where applications have built-in assumption that the network is not =
segmented and therefore do not function in environments where it =
is.</div><div><br></div><div>If you burn a pre-determined ULA prefix =
into devices, then you either:</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>1)</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>a)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Presume all devices that should talk to each other are on the =
same link.</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>b)<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Presume =
that all devices on the same link should talk to each =
other.</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
		</span>c)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Break installations where =
multiple parts of the system are on different =
segments.</div><div>or</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>2)</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>a)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Require significant overhead and additional facilities (such as =
MIP) to make communication possible.</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>b)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Create unnecessary external dependencies</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>c)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Complicate and expand the codebase on resource constrained =
nodes.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>In case 1) above the =
"burnt in" ULA could potentially still communicate across routers. I =
believe that's the case Anders refers to.</div><div><br></div>But again, =
I agree that "burnt in" addresses are highly undesirable, but are there =
scenarios where they are unavoidable? Perhaps we're asking in the wrong =
list.</div><div><br></div><div>Tim</div><div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"DA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">Thanks,<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp; Anders<o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 11pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm =
4pt; "><div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none none; =
border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); padding: =
3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; =
">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; =
font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org">v6ops-bounces@ietf.org</a> =
[mailto:v6ops-<a =
href=3D"mailto:bounces@ietf.org">bounces@ietf.org</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><b>On Behalf Of<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span></b>Lorenzo =
Colitti<br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>24. maj 2013 =
13:42<br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Liubing =
(Leo)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a>; <a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org">=
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org</a><br><b>Subjec=
t:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [v6ops] A =
brief intro-//RE: new draft: =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></=
div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On =
Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; ">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none =
none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, =
204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: 0cm; =
"><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: =
1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; =
"><div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: =
0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; "><div style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; "><div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; "><div =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; =
border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; "><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;V. "the network needs =
ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which doesn't need much code =
to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND." I don't think =
this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual address =
assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't support automatic =
address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough resources to =
implement a UI for manual address =
assignment?</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); ">[Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network =
environment, there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning =
environment for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, =
hard-coded in the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every =
single NIC or self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc =
networking without address provisioning =
procedures.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><=
/div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">How are =
those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to =
communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, =
you can just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support =
router advertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, =
then they can use =
autoconfiguration.&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); ">[Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it=92s a basic IPv6 =
function , the draft specifically noted this point. &nbsp;But if the =
sensors are in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the =
traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. =
ULA is suitable for this scenario, however, current text seems not =
sufficient/clear, will modify =
later.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">If they =
support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, because they =
can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they can =
autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So there is no =
need to use ULA.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Bing] =
The reasoning is flawed. Let=92s do not mix the concepts of global =
addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration =
together.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><di=
v><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">Why is it flawed? You said that a use case for ULA =
is resource-constrained nodes, because you can pre-assign addresses to =
them, and that this simplifies the nodes. But it doesn't simplify the =
nodes, because even if you pre-assign addresses, the nodes still need =
some mechanism (e.g., RA) in order to find out who you can communicate =
to. So the nodes have to support RAs. And if the nodes support RA, you =
can use autoconfiguration and you don't need to pre-assign addresses. So =
you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is not a use case =
for ULA.<o:p></o:p></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></div></div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none =
none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, =
204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin-left: 4.8pt; margin-right: =
0cm; "><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm =
4pt; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">And in MANET, the SLAAC is not =
(fully)applicable, see<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#s=
ection-5.2" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; =
">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section=
-5.2</a></span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; ">That draft expired in 2008, so it's not really =
relevant. Do you have a more up-to-date =
document?<o:p></o:p></div></div></div></div><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal" =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 12pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New =
Roman', serif; "><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></p><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; ">On =
Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; ">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:<o:p></o:p></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Hi, =
Lorenzo</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: Calibri, =
sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; "><div><div style=3D"border-style: solid none =
none; border-top-width: 1pt; border-top-color: rgb(181, 196, 223); =
padding: 3pt 0cm 0cm; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10pt; font-family: Tahoma, =
sans-serif; ">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: =
10pt; font-family: Tahoma, sans-serif; "><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: =
purple; text-decoration: underline; ">lorenzo@google.com</a>]<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><br><b>Sent:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 =
PM</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span><br><b>To:</b><span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Liubing =
(Leo)<br><b>Cc:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; =
text-decoration: underline; ">v6ops@ietf.org</a>;<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; =
">draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org</a><br><b>Subj=
ect:</b><span class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span>Re: [v6ops] A =
brief intro-//RE: new draft: =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></div></div></=
div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 =
PM, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" =
target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: underline; =
">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div><div><blockquote =
style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; "><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm =
4pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">No, the =
probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193 section 3.2.3. =
If I'm reading that section correctly, if you generate 10000 ULAs you'll =
get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate 100000 (e.g., if you =
regenerate them once a second, for one day) you'll get a collision once =
in 1000 times. And so on.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); ">[Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where =
do we need to change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can =
hardly imagine a use case of =
that.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></blockquote><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">This is a technical document =
meant to provide guidance, so I'd say that it's not appropriate to use =
vague words like regularly "regularly", without stating what they mean =
to state what it means. Can I generate 10000 ULAs per second, as long as =
I do it "regularly"? Likely =
not.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">So you =
either remove the text, or state that if ULAs are generated regularly, =
then collisions are possible, and perhaps provide provide an example =
that calculates the probability of collision with some reasonal value of =
the regeneration interval.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; =
font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Bing] =
OK, I=92ll refine the =
word.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><blockquot=
e style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; "><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm =
4pt; "><div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: =
0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; "><div style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and =
stable addressing which doesn't need much code to support address =
assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND." I don't think this makes sense. =
Are you saying such nodes only support manual address assignment? How is =
it possible that a sensor doesn't support automatic address assignment =
due to lack of resources, but has enough resources to implement a UI for =
manual address =
assignment?</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); ">[Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network =
environment, there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning =
environment for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, =
hard-coded in the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every =
single NIC or self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc =
networking without address provisioning =
procedures.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><=
/div><div><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">How are =
those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to =
communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, =
you can just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support =
router advertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, =
then they can use =
autoconfiguration.&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); ">[Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it=92s a basic IPv6 =
function , the draft specifically noted this point. &nbsp;But if the =
sensors are in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the =
traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. =
ULA is suitable for this scenario, however, current text seems not =
sufficient/clear, will modify =
later.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><=
div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">If they =
support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, because they =
can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they can =
autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So there is no =
need to use ULA.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin:=
 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size: 10.5pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Bing] =
The reasoning is flawed. Let=92s do not mix the concepts of global =
addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together. And in MANET, the =
SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see<span =
class=3D"Apple-converted-space">&nbsp;</span><a =
href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#s=
ection-5.2" target=3D"_blank" style=3D"color: purple; text-decoration: =
underline; =
">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section=
-5.2</a></span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><blockquot=
e style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; border-left-width: 1pt; =
border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: =
5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; "><div style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm =
4pt; "><div><blockquote style=3D"border-style: none none none solid; =
border-left-width: 1pt; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); padding: =
0cm 0cm 0cm 6pt; margin: 5pt 0cm 5pt 4.8pt; "><div style=3D"border-style: =
none none none solid; border-left-width: 1.5pt; border-left-color: blue; =
padding: 0cm 0cm 0cm 4pt; "><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(80, 0, 80); ">VI. "there always be =
some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes terrible operational =
complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; the multiple- =
addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 protocol. =
Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need to =
adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4." This text does not =
make sense. Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a =
feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope =
addresses. For example, you can use only global addresses and have no =
routing complexity.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, =
125); ">[Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two =
aspect.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">One is the =
common issue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixes in a =
network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins need to be =
familiar with it in the =
future.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div>=
<div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">No, because having =
multiple prefixes introduces operational complexity even if the admins =
understand multiple prefixes. All things being equal, having only one =
prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be simpler than having =
two.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">In other =
words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity, because admins =
will need to understand the complexity anyway". What I'm saying is that =
while they need to understand the complexity, we don't have to create =
the complexity if we don't need =
it.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Bing] No, =
I=92m not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial use case in =
6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity if they =
want the =
benefit.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div=
><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: =
'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div><div=
><div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ok, so =
then just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off between =
complexity and functionality, and leave it at =
that?</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">[Bing] =
A brief complexity hint would be valuable. =
Thanks.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">&nbsp;</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm =
0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">B.R.</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color: rgb(31, 73, 125); =
">Bing</span><span><o:p></o:p></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><=
/div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></div></div></div></div>_______________________________=
________________<br>v6ops mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br><a =
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops">https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a></div></blockquote></div><br></div>_____________=
__________________________________<br>v6ops mailing list<br><a =
href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>https://www.ietf.org/=
mailman/listinfo/v6ops<br></blockquote></div><br></body></html>=

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Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On 5/24/13 11:21 AM, Tim Chown wrote:
> In-line...
>
> On 24 May 2013, at 16:53, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com 
> <mailto:owen@delong.com>> wrote:
>
>>
>> On May 24, 2013, at 05:30 , Anders Brandt 
>> <Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.com 
>> <mailto:Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.com>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Lorenzo
>>> > So you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is not a use case for ULA.
>>> The ULA reasoning starts elsewhere. It is tied to a deployment use case:
>>> When nodes are installed in a new house, there may be no internet 
>>> connectivity - and even more importantly:
>>> Even if there is internet connectivity, then you can be certain that 
>>> at some time, the ISP will change your
>>> assigned prefix.
>>
>> Why can you be certain of that? I understand why you cannot be 
>> certain that they won't. But I do not understand or believe that you 
>> can be certain that they will.
>>
>> However, even in such a case, the router should provide the ULA in an 
>> RA. There is no need to preconfigure ULA into the node in question 
>> rather than use autoconfiguration.
>
> So in the homenet context we're listening to what the people building 
> the constrained devices are telling us.
>
> The ISPs are saying that it is very unlikely that the homenet's prefix 
> will be persistent. Certainly not in all cases.
>
Even if the happen to be, from one ISP they certainly are not when you 
change providers. whether that is because your other one is down, or 
becasue you got $29 a month deal from at&t as an inducement to move from 
comcast doesn't seem relevant.
> The homenet arch assumes the use of ULAs for internal communications 
> and stablity, and that ULA prefixes will be used in RAs. Alongside GUA 
> prefixes where they are also in use.
>
> It may be that certain home gateways generate their own ULA /48's. The 
> homenet arch talks about multiple ULA /48's potentially being in use.
>
>>> This is critical to certain 6LoWPAN applications such as home 
>>> automation.
>>> Remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are spread all over 
>>> the house.
>>> They control lights, garage doors and aircon devices.
>>
>> That doesn't mean that they don't need to support RA or that they 
>> cannot autoconfigure an address. There is no valid reason these 
>> devices should have burned-in ULA. Such an addressing scheme would, 
>> in fact, be quite dysfunctional.
>
> Do all 6lowpan devices support RA in the conventional sense? Or when 
> sleeping?
>
>>> The addresses of the lights, garage doors and aircon devices MUST 
>>> NOT change since the
>>> remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are permanently paired 
>>> to the IPv6 addresses of
>>> lights, garage doors and aircon devices on the application level.
>>
>> That's just really, REALLY bad application design. How do all of 
>> these ULA prefixes get properly routed when the devices are moved 
>> from one segment in the home to another? Do you add a giant layer of 
>> MIP complexity to the ULA in order to make that all work?
>>
>> The smaller devices need to be paired with the oversight 
>> application(s). Those application(s) should provide the required 
>> directory services for them to obtain the IPv6 address(es) of other 
>> devices they need to communicate with. (The oversight application 
>> could be as simple as a dynamic DNS server or as complex as a 
>> centralized home automation management application. Whether support 
>> for pairing with more than one oversight application is required is 
>> left as an exercise for the device manufacturers.
>
> So this would be the desired model of course, but what are the actual 
> constraints?
>
>>> Only ULA prefixes provide that stability, yet ability to route 
>>> within the home.
>>> The lights, garage doors and aircon devices MAY also have global 
>>> prefixes for external use by
>>> portals and advanced clients.
>>
>> ULA prefixes can't provide that stability, either. Burning a prefix 
>> into a device is just bad juju from start to end.
>>
>> It will lead to some of the same problems we have with similar 
>> systems in IPv4 where applications have built-in assumption that the 
>> network is not segmented and therefore do not function in 
>> environments where it is.
>>
>> If you burn a pre-determined ULA prefix into devices, then you either:
>> 1)
>> a)Presume all devices that should talk to each other are on the same 
>> link.
>> b)Presume that all devices on the same link should talk to each other.
>> c)Break installations where multiple parts of the system are on 
>> different segments.
>> or
>> 2)
>> a)Require significant overhead and additional facilities (such as 
>> MIP) to make communication possible.
>> b)Create unnecessary external dependencies
>> c)Complicate and expand the codebase on resource constrained nodes.
>
> In case 1) above the "burnt in" ULA could potentially still 
> communicate across routers. I believe that's the case Anders refers to.
>
> But again, I agree that "burnt in" addresses are highly undesirable, 
> but are there scenarios where they are unavoidable? Perhaps we're 
> asking in the wrong list.
>
> Tim
>
>>
>> Owen
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Anders
>>> *From:*v6ops-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> 
>>> [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:bounces@ietf.org>]*On Behalf 
>>> Of*Lorenzo Colitti
>>> *Sent:*24. maj 2013 13:42
>>> *To:*Liubing (Leo)
>>> *Cc:*v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>; 
>>> draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org 
>>> <mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: 
>>> draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
>>> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) 
>>> <leo.liubing@huawei.com <mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>             V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable
>>>             addressing which doesn't need much code to support
>>>             address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND." I don't
>>>             think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only
>>>             support manual address assignment? How is it possible
>>>             that a sensor doesn't support automatic address
>>>             assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough
>>>             resources to implement a UI for manual address assignment?
>>>             [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the
>>>             network environment, there might not be a comprehensive
>>>             network provisioning environment for the nodes. If they
>>>             can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the
>>>             embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single
>>>             NIC or self-generating a ULA, then they could make
>>>             ad-hoc networking without address provisioning procedures.
>>>
>>>         How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the
>>>         link router to communicate off-link? If they can't do this,
>>>         then you don't need ULA, you can just use link-local. If
>>>         they can do this, then they must support router
>>>         advertisements or similar. If they support router
>>>         advertisements, then they can use autoconfiguration.
>>>         [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it’s a basic IPv6
>>>         function , the draft specifically noted this point. But if
>>>         the sensors are in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is
>>>         different with the traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is
>>>         based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable for this
>>>         scenario, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear,
>>>         will modify later.
>>>
>>>     If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be
>>>     pre-configured, because they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure
>>>     addresses. And if they can autoconfigure an address, they can
>>>     use a global address. So there is no need to use ULA.
>>>     [Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let’s do not mix the concepts of
>>>     global addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together.
>>>
>>> Why is it flawed? You said that a use case for ULA is 
>>> resource-constrained nodes, because you can pre-assign addresses to 
>>> them, and that this simplifies the nodes. But it doesn't simplify 
>>> the nodes, because even if you pre-assign addresses, the nodes still 
>>> need some mechanism (e.g., RA) in order to find out who you can 
>>> communicate to. So the nodes have to support RAs. And if the nodes 
>>> support RA, you can use autoconfiguration and you don't need to 
>>> pre-assign addresses. So you can use any type of address, not only 
>>> ULA. So this is not a use case for ULA.
>>>
>>>     And in MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable,
>>>     seehttp://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.2
>>>
>>> That draft expired in 2008, so it's not really relevant. Do you have 
>>> a more up-to-date document?
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) 
>>> <leo.liubing@huawei.com <mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
>>> Hi, Lorenzo
>>> *From:*Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com 
>>> <mailto:lorenzo@google.com>]
>>> *Sent:*Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 PM
>>>
>>> *To:*Liubing (Leo)
>>> *Cc:*v6ops@ietf.org 
>>> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>;draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org 
>>> <mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
>>> *Subject:*Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: 
>>> draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
>>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Liubing (Leo) 
>>> <leo.liubing@huawei.com <mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>     No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193
>>>     section 3.2.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if you
>>>     generate 10000 ULAs you'll get a collision 1 in 500k times. If
>>>     you generate 100000 (e.g., if you regenerate them once a second,
>>>     for one day) you'll get a collision once in 1000 times. And so on.
>>>     [Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where
>>>     do we need to change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I
>>>     can hardly imagine a use case of that.
>>>
>>> This is a technical document meant to provide guidance, so I'd say 
>>> that it's not appropriate to use vague words like regularly 
>>> "regularly", without stating what they mean to state what it means. 
>>> Can I generate 10000 ULAs per second, as long as I do it 
>>> "regularly"? Likely not.
>>> So you either remove the text, or state that if ULAs are generated 
>>> regularly, then collisions are possible, and perhaps provide provide 
>>> an example that calculates the probability of collision with some 
>>> reasonal value of the regeneration interval.
>>> [Bing] OK, I’ll refine the word.
>>>
>>>         V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable
>>>         addressing which doesn't need much code to support address
>>>         assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND." I don't think this
>>>         makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual
>>>         address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't
>>>         support automatic address assignment due to lack of
>>>         resources, but has enough resources to implement a UI for
>>>         manual address assignment?
>>>         [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network
>>>         environment, there might not be a comprehensive network
>>>         provisioning environment for the nodes. If they can be
>>>         pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the embedded
>>>         system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or
>>>         self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc
>>>         networking without address provisioning procedures.
>>>
>>>     How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link
>>>     router to communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you
>>>     don't need ULA, you can just use link-local. If they can do
>>>     this, then they must support router advertisements or similar.
>>>     If they support router advertisements, then they can use
>>>     autoconfiguration.
>>>     [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it’s a basic IPv6
>>>     function , the draft specifically noted this point. But if the
>>>     sensors are in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different
>>>     with the traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a
>>>     multi hop topology. ULA is suitable for this scenario, however,
>>>     current text seems not sufficient/clear, will modify later.
>>>
>>> If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, 
>>> because they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if 
>>> they can autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So 
>>> there is no need to use ULA.
>>> [Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let’s do not mix the concepts of 
>>> global addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together. And in 
>>> MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, 
>>> seehttp://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.2
>>>
>>>         VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the
>>>         ULA+PA makes terrible operational complexity. But it is not
>>>         a ULA-specific problem; the multiple-
>>>         addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6
>>>         protocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very
>>>         common, and we need to adapt this new operational model than
>>>         that in IPv4." This text does not make sense. Just because
>>>         having multiple global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6
>>>         doesn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope
>>>         addresses. For example, you can use only global addresses
>>>         and have no routing complexity.
>>>         [Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.
>>>         One is the common issue as described in the texts, running
>>>         multiple prefixes in a network is new to the traditional
>>>         IPv4 model, the admins need to be familiar with it in the
>>>         future.
>>>
>>>     No, because having multiple prefixes introduces operational
>>>     complexity even if the admins understand multiple prefixes. All
>>>     things being equal, having only one prefix (e.g., a global
>>>     prefix) is always going to be simpler than having two.
>>>     In other words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity,
>>>     because admins will need to understand the complexity anyway".
>>>     What I'm saying is that while they need to understand the
>>>     complexity, we don't have to create the complexity if we don't
>>>     need it.
>>>     [Bing] No, I’m not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial
>>>     use case in 6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the
>>>     complexity if they want the benefit.
>>>
>>> Ok, so then just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off 
>>> between complexity and functionality, and leave it at that?
>>> [Bing] A brief complexity hint would be valuable. Thanks.
>>> B.R.
>>> Bing
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>
>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Fwd:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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Le 23/05/2013 23:08, Mark Smith a écrit :
> Hi,
>
>
> Suggested changes:
>
>
>
> 1. Introduction
>
> "... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a LAN."
>
>
> to
>
> ""... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a single LAN interface."
>
> Generally I think this intro text should make it a bit clearer that
> these methods are only extending the /64 to a single LAN interface.

Yes.

Moreover, it should be clear that this extension only works with only
one level of extension (one cant have 64share-64share-... indefinitely,
not even twice).

> 3.1 Scenario 1: No Global Address on the UE
>
> "traffic destine"
>
>
> - missing "d" on destined.

Better say 'targeted' or 'addressed to'.  Exchanged with peers
addressable by.

> "the UE (e.g. DNS caching that requires global connectivity) and
> prevent proper Path MTU Discovery [RFC1981] to occur on the UE
> providing an IPv6 router function."
>
>
> Regarding breaking PMTUD, I wonder if it might be worth requiring
> that the MTU of the LAN interface is made the same as that of the
> 3GPP interface, and if it isn't the default for the LAN interface
> (i.e., 1500 for ethernet), then the LAN interface RAs have the MTU
> option set to the size of the 3GPP interface. I think that would
> prevent the UE needing to participate in PMTUD.
>
>
> "The UE copies the prefix 2001:db8:ac10:f002::/64 from the 3GPP
> interface to the LAN interface,"
>
>
> I think it would be clearer if this text specified that this copying
> of the /64 prefix was indicating the prefix was on-link, by adding
> the prefix to the Prefix List, as per RFC5942, "IPv6 Subnet Model:
> The Relationship between Links and Subnet Prefixes"
>
>
> 3.2 Scenario 2: Global Address Only Assigned to LAN
>
> "The movement of the IPv6 prefix from the 3GPP radio interface to
> the LAN interface may result in long-lived data connections being
> terminated during the transition from a host-only mode to
> router-and-host mode."
>
>
> I'd suggest adding something like:
>
> "Connections which are likely to be effected are ones that have been
> specifically bound to the 3GPP radio interface."

One other way to think about this is the follozing:

If for any reason the 3GPP UE changes its IPv6 address (disconnect and
reconnect, because of short transitions, or other error) then it is
highly likely that the IPv6 address changes, and its first 64 bits may
change as well.  At that point, it should be clear than any other
address on the LAN that is formed by prefixing with these 64bits, as
well as the address itself attached on UE's LAN interface, will change.
  This will certainly incur disruption in communication.

This could go as far as to say that the 64share method works only for
static UEs.  It sounds negative, I know, but the reliability of this
should be acknowledged.

Yours,

Alex

> 3.3 Scenario 3: A Single Global Address Assigned to 3GPP Radio and
> LAN Interface
>
>
>
> "This method also creates complications for ensuring uniqueness for
> Privacy Extensions [RFC4941].  Privacy Extensions should be disabled
> on the 3GPP radio interface while this method is enabled."
>
>
> I think it would be better to advise that when privacy extensions
> are in use, a single privacy address is generated, and then used as
> the anycast address on both interfaces, and the preferred and valid
> lifetimes are synchronised, such that the anycast addresses on both
> interfaces expires at the exact same moment.
>
> Hmm, actually, there might be another more broader issue to consider
> (broader than this specific scenario), regarding preferred and valid
> lifetimes of the /64. What preferred and valid lifetimes are
> supplied in the RAs by the 3G network, and should they be copied to
> the LAN interface RAs? Another issue related to this is the
> synchronised aging of the prefix on the 3GPP and LAN interfaces. In
> the case of DHCPv6 PD, the preferred and valid lifetimes announced in
> the LAN RAs are to be synchronised with the aging of the DHCPv6-PD
> prefix, so that when the PD prefix expires, the addresses on the
> hosts on the LAN expire at the same time.
>
>
> HTH, Mark. _______________________________________________ v6ops
> mailing list v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>



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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Le 24/05/2013 13:42, Lorenzo Colitti a écrit :
> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com
> <mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
>
>               V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable
>             addressing which doesn't need much code to support address
>             assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND." I don't think this
>             makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual
>             address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't
>             support automatic address assignment due to lack of
>             resources, but has enough resources to implement a UI for
>             manual address assignment?____
>
>             [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network
>             environment, there might not be a comprehensive network
>             provisioning environment for the nodes. If they can be
>             pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the embedded
>             system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or
>             self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc
>             networking without address provisioning procedures.____
>
>         How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link
>         router to communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you
>         don't need ULA, you can just use link-local. If they can do
>         this, then they must support router advertisements or similar.
>         If they support router advertisements, then they can use
>         autoconfiguration. ____
>
>         [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it’s a basic IPv6
>         function , the draft specifically noted this point.  But if the
>         sensors are in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different
>         with the traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a
>         multi hop topology. ULA is suitable for this scenario, however,
>         current text seems not sufficient/clear, will modify later.____
>
>     __ __
>
>     If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured,
>     because they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if
>     they can autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So
>     there is no need to use ULA.____
>
>     __ __
>
>     [Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let’s do not mix the concepts of
>     global addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together.
>
>
> Why is it flawed? You said that a use case for ULA is
> resource-constrained nodes, because you can pre-assign addresses to
> them, and that this simplifies the nodes. But it doesn't simplify the
> nodes, because even if you pre-assign addresses, the nodes still need
> some mechanism (e.g., RA) in order to find out who you can communicate
> to. So the nodes have to support RAs. And if the nodes support RA, you
> can use autoconfiguration and you don't need to pre-assign addresses. So
> you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is not a use case
> for ULA.

RA could be used to just communicate the default route, not the link 
prefix - that makes for a smaller RA which is ok for constrained devices.

Actually, RA may not be needed at all for a constrained device.  You 
could have a constrained device that just knows its default route.

Alex

>
>     And in MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see
>     http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.2
>
>
> That draft expired in 2008, so it's not really relevant. Do you have a
> more up-to-date document?
>
>
> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com
> <mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
>
>     Hi, Lorenzo____
>
>     __ __
>
>     *From:*Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com
>     <mailto:lorenzo@google.com>]
>     *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 PM
>
>
>     *To:* Liubing (Leo)
>     *Cc:* v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>;
>     draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
>     <mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:
>     draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations____
>
>     __ __
>
>     On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Liubing (Leo)
>     <leo.liubing@huawei.com <mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:____
>
>         No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193
>         section 3.2.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if you
>         generate 10000 ULAs you'll get a collision 1 in 500k times. If
>         you generate 100000 (e.g., if you regenerate them once a second,
>         for one day) you'll get a collision once in 1000 times. And so
>         on.____
>
>         [Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where
>         do we need to change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I
>         can hardly imagine a use case of that.____
>
>     __ __
>
>     This is a technical document meant to provide guidance, so I'd say
>     that it's not appropriate to use vague words like regularly
>     "regularly", without stating what they mean to state what it means.
>     Can I generate 10000 ULAs per second, as long as I do it
>     "regularly"? Likely not.____
>
>     __ __
>
>     So you either remove the text, or state that if ULAs are generated
>     regularly, then collisions are possible, and perhaps provide provide
>     an example that calculates the probability of collision with some
>     reasonal value of the regeneration interval.____
>
>     __ __
>
>     [Bing] OK, I’ll refine the word.____
>
>     __ __
>
>               V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable
>             addressing which doesn't need much code to support address
>             assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND." I don't think this
>             makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual
>             address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't
>             support automatic address assignment due to lack of
>             resources, but has enough resources to implement a UI for
>             manual address assignment?____
>
>             [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network
>             environment, there might not be a comprehensive network
>             provisioning environment for the nodes. If they can be
>             pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the embedded
>             system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or
>             self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc
>             networking without address provisioning procedures.____
>
>         How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link
>         router to communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you
>         don't need ULA, you can just use link-local. If they can do
>         this, then they must support router advertisements or similar.
>         If they support router advertisements, then they can use
>         autoconfiguration. ____
>
>         [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it’s a basic IPv6
>         function , the draft specifically noted this point.  But if the
>         sensors are in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different
>         with the traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a
>         multi hop topology. ULA is suitable for this scenario, however,
>         current text seems not sufficient/clear, will modify later.____
>
>     __ __
>
>     If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured,
>     because they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if
>     they can autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So
>     there is no need to use ULA.____
>
>     __ __
>
>     [Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let’s do not mix the concepts of
>     global addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together. And in
>     MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see
>     http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.2____
>
>     __ __
>
>             VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the
>             ULA+PA makes terrible operational complexity. But it is not
>             a ULA-specific problem; the multiple-
>             addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6
>             protocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very
>             common, and we need to adapt this new operational model than
>             that in IPv4." This text does not make sense. Just because
>             having multiple global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6
>             doesn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope
>             addresses. For example, you can use only global addresses
>             and have no routing complexity.____
>
>             [Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two
>             aspect.____
>
>             One is the common issue as described in the texts, running
>             multiple prefixes in a network is new to the traditional
>             IPv4 model, the admins need to be familiar with it in the
>             future.____
>
>         No, because having multiple prefixes introduces operational
>         complexity even if the admins understand multiple prefixes. All
>         things being equal, having only one prefix (e.g., a global
>         prefix) is always going to be simpler than having two.____
>
>         ____
>
>         In other words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity,
>         because admins will need to understand the complexity anyway".
>         What I'm saying is that while they need to understand the
>         complexity, we don't have to create the complexity if we don't
>         need it.____
>
>         [Bing] No, I’m not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial
>         use case in 6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the
>         complexity if they want the benefit.____
>
>     __ __
>
>     Ok, so then just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off
>     between complexity and functionality, and leave it at that?____
>
>     [Bing] A brief complexity hint would be valuable. Thanks.____
>
>     __ __
>
>     B.R.____
>
>     Bing____
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>



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References: <201305181245.r4ICj0i04824@ftpeng-update.cisco.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D722B0E@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr1UPt6WcAeDbuZzP6Cf5EThy7pGWuu8i6WsJXMNoaCAgQ@mail.gmail.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D726A66@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr3SUa8pz3=UGQTzuvPNva3vFrzTmt=oQ1Wbd4uAH_T0rw@mail.gmail.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D726B3E@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr3xwg3Mujmv71MY10q6ahsD1FSmY-kxdVoOU68mDaJDgg@mail.gmail.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D729249@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr3XcN+H344uNQUNWmASdP3kNUzKUc_QUSgvAmY0TyO0MA@mail.gmail.com> <03F31C213F2C6941BFDDBB4336E9E6CD20E1EE13@cph-ex1> <38AF7ABF-9A6A-41E0-82DB-17D38A281379@delong.com> <EDF29A5B-4862-4764-A96D-4D6F1E053F11@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <EMEW3|40e23a4cb2ba7973e3d54ac4b2f76028p4NJNC03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|EDF29A5B-4862-4764-A96D-4D6F1E053F11@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On May 24, 2013, at 11:21 , Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:

> In-line...
>=20
> On 24 May 2013, at 16:53, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>=20
>>=20
>> On May 24, 2013, at 05:30 , Anders Brandt =
<Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> Hi Lorenzo
>>> =20
>>> > So you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is not a =
use case for ULA.
>>> =20
>>> The ULA reasoning starts elsewhere. It is tied to a deployment use =
case:
>>> =20
>>> When nodes are installed in a new house, there may be no internet =
connectivity - and even more importantly:
>>> Even if there is internet connectivity, then you can be certain that =
at some time, the ISP will change your
>>> assigned prefix.
>>=20
>> Why can you be certain of that? I understand why you cannot be =
certain that they won't. But I do not understand or believe that you can =
be certain that they will.
>>=20
>> However, even in such a case, the router should provide the ULA in an =
RA. There is no need to preconfigure ULA into the node in question =
rather than use autoconfiguration.
>=20
> So in the homenet context we're listening to what the people building =
the constrained devices are telling us.
>=20
> The ISPs are saying that it is very unlikely that the homenet's prefix =
will be persistent.  Certainly not in all cases.
>=20
Correct... This means that you cannot count on it persisting. I agree.

That is not the same as being able to count on it changing. There will =
be cases where it does not change. For example, my home has a direct =
ARIN IPv6 assignment. I realize this is not necessarily the norm, but =
it's also not out of the question. Many other homes I know of subscribe =
to business class services in order to get persistent addressing. I have =
no reason to believe this practice will be less common in the future.

> The homenet arch assumes the use of ULAs for internal communications =
and stablity, and that ULA prefixes will be used in RAs.  Alongside GUA =
prefixes where they are also in use.

Understood. I think it's a horrible assumption (per my previous =
example), but I understand the reasoning behind it.

> It may be that certain home gateways generate their own ULA /48's. The =
homenet arch talks about multiple ULA /48's potentially being in use.
>=20

Sure.

>>> This is critical to certain 6LoWPAN applications such as home =
automation.
>>> Remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are spread all over =
the house.
>>> They control lights, garage doors and aircon devices.
>>=20
>> That doesn't mean that they don't need to support RA or that they =
cannot autoconfigure an address. There is no valid reason these devices =
should have burned-in ULA. Such an addressing scheme would, in fact, be =
quite dysfunctional.
>=20
> Do all 6lowpan devices support RA in the conventional sense?  Or when =
sleeping?
>=20

I don't know. Certainly, they should support RA. They don't really need =
to do so when sleeping as they can send an RS when they wake up if =
necessary.

>>> The addresses of the lights, garage doors and aircon devices MUST =
NOT change since the
>>> remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are permanently paired =
to the IPv6 addresses of
>>> lights, garage doors and aircon devices on the application level.
>>=20
>> That's just really, REALLY bad application design. How do all of =
these ULA prefixes get properly routed when the devices are moved from =
one segment in the home to another? Do you add a giant layer of MIP =
complexity to the ULA in order to make that all work?
>>=20
>> The smaller devices need to be paired with the oversight =
application(s). Those application(s) should provide the required =
directory services for them to obtain the IPv6 address(es) of other =
devices they need to communicate with. (The oversight application could =
be as simple as a dynamic DNS server or as complex as a centralized home =
automation management application. Whether support for pairing with more =
than one oversight application is required is left as an exercise for =
the device manufacturers.
>=20
> So this would be the desired model of course, but what are the actual =
constraints?
>=20

I don't know. My point is that I don't believe the IETF should be =
designing RFCs around the brokenness of current designs. Rather we =
should document the reasons such designs are broken and encourage the =
vendors to make appropriate changes.

>>> Only ULA prefixes provide that stability, yet ability to route =
within the home.
>>> The lights, garage doors and aircon devices MAY also have global =
prefixes for external use by
>>> portals and advanced clients.
>>=20
>> ULA prefixes can't provide that stability, either. Burning a prefix =
into a device is just bad juju from start to end.
>>=20
>> It will lead to some of the same problems we have with similar =
systems in IPv4 where applications have built-in assumption that the =
network is not segmented and therefore do not function in environments =
where it is.
>>=20
>> If you burn a pre-determined ULA prefix into devices, then you =
either:
>> 	1)
>> 		a)	Presume all devices that should talk to each =
other are on the same link.
>> 		b)	Presume that all devices on the same link should =
talk to each other.
>> 		c)	Break installations where multiple parts of the =
system are on different segments.
>> or
>> 	2)
>> 		a)	Require significant overhead and additional =
facilities (such as MIP) to make communication possible.
>> 		b)	Create unnecessary external dependencies
>> 		c)	Complicate and expand the codebase on resource =
constrained nodes.
>=20
> In case 1) above the "burnt in" ULA could potentially still =
communicate across routers. I believe that's the case Anders refers to.
>=20

Only if the ULA is different on each device and the router somehow =
learns how to route all those prefixes.

Otherwise, you run into the following two problems:

	1.	Multiple devices with the same prefix not on the same =
network.
	2.	Multiple devices with different prefixes unable to =
recognize each other on the same network.

> But again, I agree that "burnt in" addresses are highly undesirable, =
but are there scenarios where they are unavoidable? Perhaps we're asking =
in the wrong list.

No, there are no scenarios where they are legitimately unavoidable if =
routing is required.

If you have a device that needs to have a BIA, then the BIA should be =
link-local only and the device should either use RA or some other =
mechanism to learn how to communicate off-link if necessary.

Owen


--Apple-Mail=_2DD8BB2D-1603-4D7B-9B0B-E79782AE375A
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><br><div><div>On May 24, 2013, at 11:21 , Tim Chown &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk">tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><div>In-line...</div><div><br></div><div>On 24 May 2013, at =
16:53, Owen DeLong &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><meta =
http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Dwindows-1252"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><br><div><div>On May 24, 2013, at 05:30 , Anders Brandt &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.com">Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.=
com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br =
class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
lang=3D"DA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: =
Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; =
font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; =
orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: =
none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; =
-webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div =
class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: =
Calibri, sans-serif; color: rgb(31, 73, 125); ">Hi =
Lorenzo<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
style=3D"font-size: 11pt; font-family: Calibri, sans-serif; color: =
rgb(31, 73, 125); ">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&gt; So you can use any type of address, not only =
ULA. So this is not a use case for ULA.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">The ULA reasoning starts =
elsewhere. It is tied to a deployment use =
case:<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">When nodes are installed in a new house, there =
may be no internet connectivity - and even more importantly:<br>Even if =
there is internet connectivity, then you can be certain that at some =
time, the ISP will change your<br>assigned =
prefix.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Why can you =
be certain of that? I understand why you cannot be certain that they =
won't. But I do not understand or believe that you can be certain that =
they will.</div><div><br></div><div>However, even in such a case, the =
router should provide the ULA in an RA. There is no need to preconfigure =
ULA into the node in question rather than use =
autoconfiguration.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>So in the =
homenet context we're listening to what the people building the =
constrained devices are telling us.</div><div><br></div><div>The ISPs =
are saying that it is very unlikely that the homenet's prefix will be =
persistent. &nbsp;Certainly not in all =
cases.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote>Correct... This means that =
you cannot count on it persisting. I =
agree.</div><div><br></div><div>That is not the same as being able to =
count on it changing. There will be cases where it does not change. For =
example, my home has a direct ARIN IPv6 assignment. I realize this is =
not necessarily the norm, but it's also not out of the question. Many =
other homes I know of subscribe to business class services in order to =
get persistent addressing. I have no reason to believe this practice =
will be less common in the future.</div><div><br></div><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>The homenet arch =
assumes the use of ULAs for internal communications and stablity, and =
that ULA prefixes will be used in RAs. &nbsp;Alongside GUA prefixes =
where they are also in =
use.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Understood. I think it's a =
horrible assumption (per my previous example), but I understand the =
reasoning behind it.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>It may be that certain =
home gateways generate their own ULA /48's. The homenet arch talks about =
multiple ULA /48's potentially being in =
use.</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Sure.</div><div=
><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"DA" link=3D"blue" =
vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; =
font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; =
letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: =
-webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: =
normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; =
-webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; "><div class=3D"WordSection1" =
style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm =
0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; =
"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This is critical to certain 6LoWPAN applications =
such as home automation.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: =
0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', =
serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">Remote controls, sensors and wall =
controllers are spread all over the house.<br>They control lights, =
garage doors and aircon =
devices.<br></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>That =
doesn't mean that they don't need to support RA or that they cannot =
autoconfigure an address. There is no valid reason these devices should =
have burned-in ULA. Such an addressing scheme would, in fact, be quite =
dysfunctional.</div></blockquote><div><br></div>Do all 6lowpan devices =
support RA in the conventional sense? &nbsp;Or when =
sleeping?</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I don't =
know. Certainly, they should support RA. They don't really need to do so =
when sleeping as they can send an RS when they wake up if =
necessary.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"DA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span style=3D"font-size: 12pt; ">The addresses of =
the lights, garage doors and aircon devices MUST NOT change since =
the</span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; =
font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">remote =
controls, sensors and wall controllers are permanently paired to the =
IPv6 addresses of<br>lights, garage doors and aircon devices on the =
application =
level.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>That's just =
really, REALLY bad application design. How do all of these ULA prefixes =
get properly routed when the devices are moved from one segment in the =
home to another? Do you add a giant layer of MIP complexity to the ULA =
in order to make that all work?</div><div><br></div><div>The smaller =
devices need to be paired with the oversight application(s). Those =
application(s) should provide the required directory services for them =
to obtain the IPv6 address(es) of other devices they need to communicate =
with. (The oversight application could be as simple as a dynamic DNS =
server or as complex as a centralized home automation management =
application. Whether support for pairing with more than one oversight =
application is required is left as an exercise for the device =
manufacturers.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>So this would be =
the desired model of course, but what are the actual =
constraints?</div><div><br></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>I =
don't know. My point is that I don't believe the IETF should be =
designing RFCs around the brokenness of current designs. Rather we =
should document the reasons such designs are broken and encourage the =
vendors to make appropriate changes.</div><div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: =
space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><div lang=3D"DA" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" =
style=3D"font-family: Helvetica; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; =
font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; =
line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: =
0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: =
0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; =
"><div class=3D"WordSection1" style=3D"page: WordSection1; "><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></div><div =
style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times =
New Roman', serif; "><span lang=3D"EN-US">Only ULA prefixes provide that =
stability, yet ability to route within the =
home.<o:p></o:p></span></div><div style=3D"margin: 0cm 0cm 0.0001pt; =
font-size: 12pt; font-family: 'Times New Roman', serif; "><span =
lang=3D"EN-US">The lights, garage doors and aircon devices MAY also have =
global prefixes for external use by<br>portals and advanced =
clients.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>ULA =
prefixes can't provide that stability, either. Burning a prefix into a =
device is just bad juju from start to end.</div><div><br></div><div>It =
will lead to some of the same problems we have with similar systems in =
IPv4 where applications have built-in assumption that the network is not =
segmented and therefore do not function in environments where it =
is.</div><div><br></div><div>If you burn a pre-determined ULA prefix =
into devices, then you either:</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>1)</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>a)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Presume all devices that should talk to each other are on the =
same link.</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">		</span>b)<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Presume =
that all devices on the same link should talk to each =
other.</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">=
		</span>c)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Break installations where =
multiple parts of the system are on different =
segments.</div><div>or</div><div><span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" =
style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>2)</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>a)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Require significant overhead and additional facilities (such as =
MIP) to make communication possible.</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>b)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Create unnecessary external dependencies</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">		=
</span>c)<span class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	=
</span>Complicate and expand the codebase on resource constrained =
nodes.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>In case 1) above the =
"burnt in" ULA could potentially still communicate across routers. I =
believe that's the case Anders refers =
to.</div><div><br></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>Only if =
the ULA is different on each device and the router somehow learns how to =
route all those prefixes.</div><div><br></div><div>Otherwise, you run =
into the following two problems:</div><div><br></div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>1.<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Multiple =
devices with the same prefix not on the same network.</div><div><span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>2.<span =
class=3D"Apple-tab-span" style=3D"white-space:pre">	</span>Multiple =
devices with different prefixes unable to recognize each other on the =
same network.</div><div><br><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div =
style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; =
-webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>But again, I agree that =
"burnt in" addresses are highly undesirable, but are there scenarios =
where they are unavoidable? Perhaps we're asking in the wrong =
list.</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div>No, there are no scenarios =
where they are legitimately unavoidable if routing is =
required.</div><div><br></div><div>If you have a device that needs to =
have a BIA, then the BIA should be link-local only and the device should =
either use RA or some other mechanism to learn how to communicate =
off-link if =
necessary.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br></div></body></html=
>=

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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Le 24/05/2013 17:53, Owen DeLong a écrit :
>
> On May 24, 2013, at 05:30 , Anders Brandt
> <Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.com <mailto:Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.com>>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Lorenzo
>> > So you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is not a use case for ULA.
>> The ULA reasoning starts elsewhere. It is tied to a deployment use case:
>> When nodes are installed in a new house, there may be no internet
>> connectivity - and even more importantly:
>> Even if there is internet connectivity, then you can be certain that
>> at some time, the ISP will change your
>> assigned prefix.
>
> Why can you be certain of that? I understand why you cannot be certain
> that they won't. But I do not understand or believe that you can be
> certain that they will.
>
> However, even in such a case, the router should provide the ULA in an
> RA. There is no need to preconfigure ULA into the node in question
> rather than use autoconfiguration.
>
>> This is critical to certain 6LoWPAN applications such as home automation.
>> Remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are spread all over the
>> house.
>> They control lights, garage doors and aircon devices.
>
> That doesn't mean that they don't need to support RA or that they cannot
> autoconfigure an address. There is no valid reason these devices should
> have burned-in ULA. Such an addressing scheme would, in fact, be quite
> dysfunctional.

Not sure what you mean.

But sure a device which has its address pre-configured could go very far 
in reducing its memory/cpu print.

Alex

>
>> The addresses of the lights, garage doors and aircon devices MUST NOT
>> change since the
>> remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are permanently paired
>> to the IPv6 addresses of
>> lights, garage doors and aircon devices on the application level.
>
> That's just really, REALLY bad application design. How do all of these
> ULA prefixes get properly routed when the devices are moved from one
> segment in the home to another? Do you add a giant layer of MIP
> complexity to the ULA in order to make that all work?
>
> The smaller devices need to be paired with the oversight application(s).

?

Its sufficient for the remote apps to be preconfigured with the devices' 
addresses, no need to preconfigure the other way around.


> Those application(s) should provide the required directory services for
> them to obtain the IPv6 address(es) of other devices they need to
> communicate with. (The oversight application could be as simple as a
> dynamic DNS server or as complex as a centralized home automation
> management application. Whether support for pairing with more than one
> oversight application is required is left as an exercise for the device
> manufacturers.

Its a way of doing it.

And there are other simpler ways.

Alex

>
>> Only ULA prefixes provide that stability, yet ability to route within
>> the home.
>> The lights, garage doors and aircon devices MAY also have global
>> prefixes for external use by
>> portals and advanced clients.
>
> ULA prefixes can't provide that stability, either. Burning a prefix into
> a device is just bad juju from start to end.
>
> It will lead to some of the same problems we have with similar systems
> in IPv4 where applications have built-in assumption that the network is
> not segmented and therefore do not function in environments where it is.
>
> If you burn a pre-determined ULA prefix into devices, then you either:
> 1)
> a)Presume all devices that should talk to each other are on the same link.
> b)Presume that all devices on the same link should talk to each other.
> c)Break installations where multiple parts of the system are on
> different segments.
> or
> 2)
> a)Require significant overhead and additional facilities (such as MIP)
> to make communication possible.
> b)Create unnecessary external dependencies
> c)Complicate and expand the codebase on resource constrained nodes.
>
> Owen
>
>> Thanks,
>>   Anders
>> *From:*v6ops-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org>
>> [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:bounces@ietf.org>]*On Behalf
>> Of*Lorenzo Colitti
>> *Sent:*24. maj 2013 13:42
>> *To:*Liubing (Leo)
>> *Cc:*v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>;
>> draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
>> <mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:
>> draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
>> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com
>> <mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
>>
>>              V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable
>>             addressing which doesn't need much code to support address
>>             assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND." I don't think this
>>             makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual
>>             address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor
>>             doesn't support automatic address assignment due to lack
>>             of resources, but has enough resources to implement a UI
>>             for manual address assignment?
>>             [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network
>>             environment, there might not be a comprehensive network
>>             provisioning environment for the nodes. If they can be
>>             pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the embedded
>>             system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or
>>             self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc
>>             networking without address provisioning procedures.
>>
>>         How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link
>>         router to communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then
>>         you don't need ULA, you can just use link-local. If they can
>>         do this, then they must support router advertisements or
>>         similar. If they support router advertisements, then they can
>>         use autoconfiguration.
>>         [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it’s a basic IPv6
>>         function , the draft specifically noted this point.  But if
>>         the sensors are in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is
>>         different with the traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is
>>         based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable for this
>>         scenario, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear,
>>         will modify later.
>>
>>     If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured,
>>     because they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if
>>     they can autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address.
>>     So there is no need to use ULA.
>>     [Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let’s do not mix the concepts of
>>     global addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together.
>>
>> Why is it flawed? You said that a use case for ULA is
>> resource-constrained nodes, because you can pre-assign addresses to
>> them, and that this simplifies the nodes. But it doesn't simplify the
>> nodes, because even if you pre-assign addresses, the nodes still need
>> some mechanism (e.g., RA) in order to find out who you can communicate
>> to. So the nodes have to support RAs. And if the nodes support RA, you
>> can use autoconfiguration and you don't need to pre-assign addresses.
>> So you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is not a use
>> case for ULA.
>>
>>     And in MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable,
>>     seehttp://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.2
>>
>> That draft expired in 2008, so it's not really relevant. Do you have a
>> more up-to-date document?
>>
>> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com
>> <mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
>> Hi, Lorenzo
>> *From:*Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com
>> <mailto:lorenzo@google.com>]
>> *Sent:*Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 PM
>>
>> *To:*Liubing (Leo)
>> *Cc:*v6ops@ietf.org
>> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>;draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
>> <mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
>> *Subject:*Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:
>> draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
>> On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com
>> <mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
>>
>>     No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193
>>     section 3.2.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if you
>>     generate 10000 ULAs you'll get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you
>>     generate 100000 (e.g., if you regenerate them once a second, for
>>     one day) you'll get a collision once in 1000 times. And so on.
>>     [Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where do
>>     we need to change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can
>>     hardly imagine a use case of that.
>>
>> This is a technical document meant to provide guidance, so I'd say
>> that it's not appropriate to use vague words like regularly
>> "regularly", without stating what they mean to state what it means.
>> Can I generate 10000 ULAs per second, as long as I do it "regularly"?
>> Likely not.
>> So you either remove the text, or state that if ULAs are generated
>> regularly, then collisions are possible, and perhaps provide provide
>> an example that calculates the probability of collision with some
>> reasonal value of the regeneration interval.
>> [Bing] OK, I’ll refine the word.
>>
>>          V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable
>>         addressing which doesn't need much code to support address
>>         assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND." I don't think this
>>         makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual
>>         address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't
>>         support automatic address assignment due to lack of resources,
>>         but has enough resources to implement a UI for manual address
>>         assignment?
>>         [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network
>>         environment, there might not be a comprehensive network
>>         provisioning environment for the nodes. If they can be
>>         pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the embedded
>>         system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or
>>         self-generating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking
>>         without address provisioning procedures.
>>
>>     How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link
>>     router to communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you
>>     don't need ULA, you can just use link-local. If they can do this,
>>     then they must support router advertisements or similar. If they
>>     support router advertisements, then they can use autoconfiguration.
>>     [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it’s a basic IPv6
>>     function , the draft specifically noted this point.  But if the
>>     sensors are in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different
>>     with the traditional wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi
>>     hop topology. ULA is suitable for this scenario, however, current
>>     text seems not sufficient/clear, will modify later.
>>
>> If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured,
>> because they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if
>> they can autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So
>> there is no need to use ULA.
>> [Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let’s do not mix the concepts of
>> global addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together. And in MANET,
>> the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable,
>> seehttp://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.2
>>
>>         VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA
>>         makes terrible operational complexity. But it is not a
>>         ULA-specific problem; the multiple- addresses-per-interface is
>>         an important feature of IPv6 protocol. Running multiple
>>         prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need to adapt
>>         this new operational model than that in IPv4." This text does
>>         not make sense. Just because having multiple global-scope
>>         addresses is a feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must have
>>         multiple global-scope addresses. For example, you can use only
>>         global addresses and have no routing complexity.
>>         [Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.
>>         One is the common issue as described in the texts, running
>>         multiple prefixes in a network is new to the traditional IPv4
>>         model, the admins need to be familiar with it in the future.
>>
>>     No, because having multiple prefixes introduces operational
>>     complexity even if the admins understand multiple prefixes. All
>>     things being equal, having only one prefix (e.g., a global prefix)
>>     is always going to be simpler than having two.
>>     In other words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity,
>>     because admins will need to understand the complexity anyway".
>>     What I'm saying is that while they need to understand the
>>     complexity, we don't have to create the complexity if we don't
>>     need it.
>>     [Bing] No, I’m not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial
>>     use case in 6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the
>>     complexity if they want the benefit.
>>
>> Ok, so then just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off
>> between complexity and functionality, and leave it at that?
>> [Bing] A brief complexity hint would be valuable. Thanks.
>> B.R.
>> Bing
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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From gert@space.net  Fri May 24 13:36:19 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Hi,

On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 08:51:05PM +0200, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
> > That doesn't mean that they don't need to support RA or that they cannot
> > autoconfigure an address. There is no valid reason these devices should
> > have burned-in ULA. Such an addressing scheme would, in fact, be quite
> > dysfunctional.
> 
> Not sure what you mean.
> 
> But sure a device which has its address pre-configured could go very far 
> in reducing its memory/cpu print.

As could a device without a network stack.

Your point being?

Gert Doering
        -- NetMaster
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

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Le 24/05/2013 22:36, Gert Doering a écrit :
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 08:51:05PM +0200, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
>>> That doesn't mean that they don't need to support RA or that they
>>> cannot autoconfigure an address. There is no valid reason these
>>> devices should have burned-in ULA. Such an addressing scheme
>>> would, in fact, be quite dysfunctional.
>>
>> Not sure what you mean.
>>
>> But sure a device which has its address pre-configured could go
>> very far in reducing its memory/cpu print.
>
> As could a device without a network stack.
>
> Your point being?

My point being that ULA could be very much appropriated for constrained
devices (without SLAAC) - and yet have a network stack.

Alex

>
> Gert Doering -- NetMaster
>



From joelja@bogus.com  Fri May 24 14:11:29 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On 5/24/13 1:36 PM, Gert Doering wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 08:51:05PM +0200, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
>>> That doesn't mean that they don't need to support RA or that they cannot
>>> autoconfigure an address. There is no valid reason these devices should
>>> have burned-in ULA. Such an addressing scheme would, in fact, be quite
>>> dysfunctional.
>> Not sure what you mean.
>>
>> But sure a device which has its address pre-configured could go very far
>> in reducing its memory/cpu print.
A decade ago dallas-semiconductor had a working v6 stack on a 8051 based 
8 bit microcontroller with 64k of rom...

There seems to be small but quite persistent faction that insists on the 
notion that functionally limited systems are incapable of operating 
around the incredibly basic set of functional building blocks for an 
ipv6 network on their link-layer of choice. Frankly I don't see it. IETF 
participants have invested a lot of productive time and energy in 
low-power/low signalling/low bandwidth embedded networking, stripping 
out the things that make it flexible robust and easy to deploy in the 
interest of something that might notionally be more compact then the 
toolkit we have at present, seems incredibly limiting.

Can you do it? Sure. In fact, nobody is going to stop you.

Is it an "improvement"? Maybe by some measure, but I kind of doubt it.
> As could a device without a network stack.
>
> Your point being?
>
> Gert Doering
>          -- NetMaster


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Le 24/05/2013 23:11, joel jaeggli a écrit :
> On 5/24/13 1:36 PM, Gert Doering wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 08:51:05PM +0200, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
>>>> That doesn't mean that they don't need to support RA or that they
>>>> cannot
>>>> autoconfigure an address. There is no valid reason these devices should
>>>> have burned-in ULA. Such an addressing scheme would, in fact, be quite
>>>> dysfunctional.
>>> Not sure what you mean.
>>>
>>> But sure a device which has its address pre-configured could go very far
>>> in reducing its memory/cpu print.
> A decade ago dallas-semiconductor had a working v6 stack on a 8051 based
> 8 bit microcontroller with 64k of rom...

That was then.

Since then even smaller platforms are tried.

> There seems to be small but quite persistent faction that insists on the
> notion that functionally limited systems are incapable of operating
> around the incredibly basic set of functional building blocks for an
> ipv6 network on their link-layer of choice.

An autoconfiguration feature is a functionality, and compares badly to 
whatever static preconfiguration, in terms of memory/cpu constraints.

I really dont see why arguing against this, it's simply basics.

Alex


  Frankly I don't see it. IETF
> participants have invested a lot of productive time and energy in
> low-power/low signalling/low bandwidth embedded networking, stripping
> out the things that make it flexible robust and easy to deploy in the
> interest of something that might notionally be more compact then the
> toolkit we have at present, seems incredibly limiting.
>
> Can you do it? Sure. In fact, nobody is going to stop you.
>
> Is it an "improvement"? Maybe by some measure, but I kind of doubt it.
>> As could a device without a network stack.
>>
>> Your point being?
>>
>> Gert Doering
>>          -- NetMaster
>
>
>



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To: Anders Brandt <Anders_Brandt@sigmadesigns.com>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>, "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On 5/24/13 5:30 AM, Anders Brandt wrote:
>
 > Hi Lorenzo
 >
 >
 >
 >> So you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is not a
 >> use case for ULA.
 >
 >
 >
 > The ULA reasoning starts elsewhere. It is tied to a deployment use
 > case:
 >
 >
 >
 > When nodes are installed in a new house, there may be no internet
 > connectivity - and even more importantly: Even if there is internet
 > connectivity, then you can be certain that at some time, the ISP will
 > change your assigned prefix.
 >
 > This is critical to certain 6LoWPAN applications such as home
 > automation.
 >
 > Remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are spread all over the
 > house. They control lights, garage doors and aircon devices.
 >
 > The addresses of the lights, garage doors and aircon devices MUST NOT
 > change since the remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are
 > permanently paired to the IPv6 addresses of lights, garage doors and
 > aircon devices on the application level.
 >

If we look at how these things are done today, I think it's pretty rare 
to see consumer oriented devices that are bound by ip address. rather 
that binding is some kind of upper layer activity. I can swap out my 
router or change my numbering plan and to consumer devices in my house 
will accommodate that without configuration change.

certainly ipso/coap devices do not envision permenent ip bindings and 
likewise callout static assignment as fragile, e.g.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-core-coap/

7.2. Resource Discovery

The discovery of resources offered by a CoAP endpoint is extremely
important in machine-to-machine applications where there are no
humans in the loop and static interfaces result in fragility.

you may consider 6lowpan wifi enabled lightbulbs to be something of a 
gimmick (I doubt philips/nxp does) but they're certainly not sensitive 
to renumbering and nor should other devices.


> Only ULA prefixes provide that  stability, yet ability to route within
 > the home.
 >
 > The lights, garage doors and aircon devices MAY also have global
 > prefixes for external use by portals and advanced clients.
 >
 >
 >
 > Thanks,
 >
 > Anders
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > *From:*v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] *On
 > Behalf Of *Lorenzo Colitti *Sent:* 24. maj 2013 13:42 *To:* Liubing
 > (Leo) *Cc:* v6ops@ietf.org;
 > draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org *Subject:*
 > Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:
 > draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
 >
 >
 >
 > On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo)
 > <leo.liubing@huawei.com <mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
 >
 > V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing
 > which doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms
 > like DHCP or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such
 > nodes only support manual address assignment? How is it possible that
 > a sensor doesn't support automatic address assignment due to lack of
 > resources, but has enough resources to implement a UI for manual
 > address assignment?
 >
 > [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network
 > environment, there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning
 > environment for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA,
 > say, hard-coded in the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in
 > every single NIC or self-generating a ULA, then they could make
 > ad-hoc networking without address provisioning procedures.
 >
 > How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router
 > to communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need
 > ULA, you can just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must
 > support router advertisements or similar. If they support router
 > advertisements, then they can use autoconfiguration.
 >
 > [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it’s a basic IPv6 function
 > , the draft specifically noted this point. But if the sensors are in
 > a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional
 > wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is
 > suitable for this scenario, however, current text seems not
 > sufficient/clear, will modify later.
 >
 >
 >
 > If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured,
 > because they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if
 > they can autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So
 > there is no need to use ULA.
 >
 >
 >
 > [Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let’s do not mix the concepts of
 > global addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together.
 >
 >
 >
 > Why is it flawed? You said that a use case for ULA is
 > resource-constrained nodes, because you can pre-assign addresses to
 > them, and that this simplifies the nodes. But it doesn't simplify the
 > nodes, because even if you pre-assign addresses, the nodes still need
 > some mechanism (e.g., RA) in order to find out who you can
 > communicate to. So the nodes have to support RAs. And if the nodes
 > support RA, you can use autoconfiguration and you don't need to
 > pre-assign addresses. So you can use any type of address, not only
 > ULA. So this is not a use case for ULA.
 >
 >
 >
 > And in MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see
 > 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.2
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > That draft expired in 2008, so it's not really relevant. Do you have
 > a more up-to-date document?
 >
 >
 >
 > On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo)
 > <leo.liubing@huawei.com <mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
 >
 > Hi, Lorenzo
 >
 >
 >
 > *From:*Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com
 > <mailto:lorenzo@google.com>] *Sent:* Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 PM
 >
 >
 > *To:* Liubing (Leo) *Cc:* v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>;
 > draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org
 > <mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
 > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:
 > draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
 >
 >
 >
 > On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Liubing (Leo)
 > <leo.liubing@huawei.com <mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
 >
 > No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193
 > section 3.2.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if you generate
 > 10000 ULAs you'll get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate
 > 100000 (e.g., if you regenerate them once a second, for one day)
 > you'll get a collision once in 1000 times. And so on.
 >
 > [Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where do we
 > need to change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can hardly
 > imagine a use case of that.
 >
 >
 >
 > This is a technical document meant to provide guidance, so I'd say
 > that it's not appropriate to use vague words like regularly
 > "regularly", without stating what they mean to state what it means.
 > Can I generate 10000 ULAs per second, as long as I do it "regularly"?
 > Likely not.
 >
 >
 >
 > So you either remove the text, or state that if ULAs are generated
 > regularly, then collisions are possible, and perhaps provide provide
 > an example that calculates the probability of collision with some
 > reasonal value of the regeneration interval.
 >
 >
 >
 > [Bing] OK, I’ll refine the word.
 >
 >
 >
 > V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing
 > which doesn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms
 > like DHCP or ND." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such
 > nodes only support manual address assignment? How is it possible that
 > a sensor doesn't support automatic address assignment due to lack of
 > resources, but has enough resources to implement a UI for manual
 > address assignment?
 >
 > [Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network
 > environment, there might not be a comprehensive network provisioning
 > environment for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA,
 > say, hard-coded in the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in
 > every single NIC or self-generating a ULA, then they could make
 > ad-hoc networking without address provisioning procedures.
 >
 > How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router
 > to communicate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need
 > ULA, you can just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must
 > support router advertisements or similar. If they support router
 > advertisements, then they can use autoconfiguration.
 >
 > [Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it’s a basic IPv6 function
 > , the draft specifically noted this point. But if the sensors are in
 > a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional
 > wired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is
 > suitable for this scenario, however, current text seems not
 > sufficient/clear, will modify later.
 >
 >
 >
 > If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured,
 > because they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if
 > they can autoconfigure an address, they can use a global address. So
 > there is no need to use ULA.
 >
 >
 >
 > [Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let’s do not mix the concepts of
 > global addr-provisioning and autoconfiguration together. And in
 > MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see
 > 
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.2
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes
 > terrible operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific
 > problem; the multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important
 > feature of IPv6 protocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be
 > very common, and we need to adapt this new operational model than
 > that in IPv4." This text does not make sense. Just because having
 > multiple global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6 doesn't mean
 > that you must have multiple global-scope addresses. For example, you
 > can use only global addresses and have no routing complexity.
 >
 > [Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.
 >
 > One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple
 > prefixes in a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the
 > admins need to be familiar with it in the future.
 >
 > No, because having multiple prefixes introduces operational
 > complexity even if the admins understand multiple prefixes. All
 > things being equal, having only one prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is
 > always going to be simpler than having two.
 >
 >
 >
 > In other words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity,
 > because admins will need to understand the complexity anyway". What
 > I'm saying is that while they need to understand the complexity, we
 > don't have to create the complexity if we don't need it.
 >
 > [Bing] No, I’m not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial use
 > case in 6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the
 > complexity if they want the benefit.
 >
 >
 >
 > Ok, so then just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off
 > between complexity and functionality, and leave it at that?
 >
 > [Bing] A brief complexity hint would be valuable. Thanks.
 >
 >
 >
 > B.R.
 >
 > Bing
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list
 > v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops



From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Fri May 24 15:48:23 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new	draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On 25/05/2013 10:09, joel jaeggli wrote:
...
> If we look at how these things are done today, I think it's pretty rare
> to see consumer oriented devices that are bound by ip address. rather
> that binding is some kind of upper layer activity. I can swap out my
> router or change my numbering plan and to consumer devices in my house
> will accommodate that without configuration change.

Well, I dunno. I am currently living in someone else's house for
a few weeks, and only yesterday, I had to reboot the ADSL box,
after which I could no longer print. Guess what? The printer's
IPv4 address had changed. Since the Bonjour mechanism provided
for the printer had already collapsed a couple of days earlier,
the fix was to log into the ADSL box, force DHCP to give the
previous IPv4 address to the printer's MAC address, and reboot
everything again.

Of course I'd love to get away from that, but I suspect that
the ability to force the printer address to <ULA_prefix>::6
instead of 192.168.1.6 would have been handy if this house
had IPv6.

    Brian

From joelja@bogus.com  Fri May 24 16:03:55 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new	draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On 5/24/13 3:48 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 25/05/2013 10:09, joel jaeggli wrote:
> ...
>> If we look at how these things are done today, I think it's pretty rare
>> to see consumer oriented devices that are bound by ip address. rather
>> that binding is some kind of upper layer activity. I can swap out my
>> router or change my numbering plan and to consumer devices in my house
>> will accommodate that without configuration change.
> Well, I dunno. I am currently living in someone else's house for
> a few weeks, and only yesterday, I had to reboot the ADSL box,
> after which I could no longer print. Guess what? The printer's
> IPv4 address had changed. Since the Bonjour mechanism provided
> for the printer had already collapsed a couple of days earlier,
> the fix was to log into the ADSL box, force DHCP to give the
> previous IPv4 address to the printer's MAC address, and reboot
> everything again.
>
> Of course I'd love to get away from that,
I'd love to get away from non-working devices too... but the printer 
didn't have a static address assignment until you programmed the dhcp 
server. and if you connect it to a different network it will get a new 
address (which it will helpfully share).
>   but I suspect that
> the ability to force the printer address to <ULA_prefix>::6
> instead of 192.168.1.6 would have been handy if this house
> had IPv6.
And then you'll change out the adsl modem. the next one, will assuming 
it assigns itself a ula pick a different one, and the printer will 
either have two or more ips,forget about the old one, be more 
conveniently addressed using link-local (different dicussion) or stop 
being accessible because it's only on the old subnet for which there's 
no RA and which your laptop will never discover.

the consumer is going to push the reset button or cycle the power when 
it doesn't work, and things are going to have sort themselves out.
>
>      Brian
>


From ales.vizdal@t-mobile.cz  Fri May 24 16:18:39 2013
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From: =?iso-8859-2?Q?V=EDzdal_Ale=B9?= <ales.vizdal@t-mobile.cz>
To: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Date: Sat, 25 May 2013 01:18:30 +0200
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Fwd:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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Hi Alex,

> -----Original Message-----
> From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of
> Alexandru Petrescu
> Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 8:45 PM
> To: v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt


> > 3.1 Scenario 1: No Global Address on the UE
> >
> > "traffic destine"
> >
> >
> > - missing "d" on destined.
>=20
> Better say 'targeted' or 'addressed to'.  Exchanged with peers addressabl=
e by.

As a packet has its destination it is 'destined to' an address ... Let's ke=
ep it as is to
avoid confusion.

> > 3.2 Scenario 2: Global Address Only Assigned to LAN
> >
> > "The movement of the IPv6 prefix from the 3GPP radio interface to the
> > LAN interface may result in long-lived data connections being
> > terminated during the transition from a host-only mode to
> > router-and-host mode."
> >
> >
> > I'd suggest adding something like:
> >
> > "Connections which are likely to be effected are ones that have been
> > specifically bound to the 3GPP radio interface."
>=20
> One other way to think about this is the follozing:
>=20
> If for any reason the 3GPP UE changes its IPv6 address (disconnect and re=
connect,
> because of short transitions, or other error) then it is highly likely th=
at the IPv6
> address changes, and its first 64 bits may change as well.  At that point=
, it should be
> clear than any other address on the LAN that is formed by prefixing with =
these 64bits,
> as well as the address itself attached on UE's LAN interface, will change=
.
>   This will certainly incur disruption in communication.
>=20
> This could go as far as to say that the 64share method works only for sta=
tic UEs.  It
> sounds negative, I know, but the reliability of this should be acknowledg=
ed.

Section 3.0 General Behavior for All Scenarios clearly states:=20

"If the 3GPP interface goes down or changes the IPv6 prefix, that state sho=
uld be reflected=20
in the LAN IPv6 configuration."

So the solution is not limited to UEs with a static IPv6 prefix. Any change=
s on the 3GPP
link shall be propagated to the LAN. (the old IPv6 prefix to be deprecated =
and the new one=20
to be advertised to the LAN)

> Yours,
>=20
> Alex

Cheers,
Ales

From dougb@dougbarton.us  Fri May 24 20:16:57 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On 05/24/2013 02:52 AM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:
> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:21 AM, Brian E Carpenter
> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>     That's correct, of course. The underlying problem here is that the
>     notion of concentric circles of scope that was originally described
>     for IPv6 is simply broken. We can't fix that in the context of
>     describing ULA usage scenarios, so let's not try.
>
>
> Actually, I think the underlying problem as regards this specific draft
> is that ULAs were not well thought-out. They came out of a compromise
> where no side got what it wanted and what we got was a
> poorly-understood, possibly unusable hybrid.

Or, ULAs are just fine for their intended purpose, it's just that you 
don't like the purpose. :)


From leo.liubing@huawei.com  Fri May 24 23:16:36 2013
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From: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 7:42 PM
To: Liubing (Leo)
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org; draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.o=
rg
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-us=
age-recommendations

On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com<mail=
to:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
 V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which doe=
sn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or N=
D." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support =
manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't support=
 automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough reso=
urces to implement a UI for manual address assignment?
[Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, ther=
e might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for the nod=
es. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the embedded=
 system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-generating a UL=
A, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address provisioning proc=
edures.
How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to com=
municate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, you can =
just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support router adv=
ertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, then they ca=
n use autoconfiguration.
[Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it's a basic IPv6 function , the =
draft specifically noted this point.  But if the sensors are in a MANET, th=
en the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional wired SLAAC, sin=
ce MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable for this scenari=
o, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear, will modify later.

If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, because t=
hey can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they can autoconf=
igure an address, they can use a global address. So there is no need to use=
 ULA.

[Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let's do not mix the concepts of global add=
r-provisioning and autoconfiguration together.

Why is it flawed? You said that a use case for ULA is resource-constrained =
nodes, because you can pre-assign addresses to them, and that this simplifi=
es the nodes. But it doesn't simplify the nodes, because even if you pre-as=
sign addresses, the nodes still need some mechanism (e.g., RA) in order to =
find out who you can communicate to. So the nodes have to support RAs. And =
if the nodes support RA, you can use autoconfiguration and you don't need t=
o pre-assign addresses. So you can use any type of address, not only ULA. S=
o this is not a use case for ULA.

 [Bing] The flaw is mainly regarding with your argument that if we can make=
 autoconfiguration then we can make global prefix. As said in last mail, I =
don't think autoconfiguration necessarily means global provisioning, they a=
re two perspectives.
Another point I want to argue is, not only simplify the nodes themselves, b=
ut also simplify the network provisioning/management. As discussed below, M=
ANET currently could not do well with SLAAC.
But anyway, I think the current texts need to be updated to be more suffici=
ent and accurate. Thanks.
And in MANET, the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see http://tools.ietf.org=
/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.2

That draft expired in 2008, so it's not really relevant. Do you have a more=
 up-to-date document?
 [Bing] Sorry, I haven't be aware of a more up-to-date document. But I thin=
k the issue is still valid.
B.R.
Bing
On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com<mail=
to:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
Hi, Lorenzo

From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com<mailto:lorenzo@google.com>=
]
Sent: Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 PM

To: Liubing (Leo)
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org<mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>; draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recom=
mendations@tools.ietf.org<mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations=
@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-us=
age-recommendations

On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Liubing (Leo) <leo.liubing@huawei.com<mail=
to:leo.liubing@huawei.com>> wrote:
No, the probability is much higher than you think. See RFC 4193 section 3.2=
.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if you generate 10000 ULAs you'l=
l get a collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate 100000 (e.g., if you reg=
enerate them once a second, for one day) you'll get a collision once in 100=
0 times. And so on.
[Bing] In theory, I agree with you. But the point here is where do we need =
to change the ULA so frequently? For random draw? I can hardly imagine a us=
e case of that.

This is a technical document meant to provide guidance, so I'd say that it'=
s not appropriate to use vague words like regularly "regularly", without st=
ating what they mean to state what it means. Can I generate 10000 ULAs per =
second, as long as I do it "regularly"? Likely not.

So you either remove the text, or state that if ULAs are generated regularl=
y, then collisions are possible, and perhaps provide provide an example tha=
t calculates the probability of collision with some reasonal value of the r=
egeneration interval.

[Bing] OK, I'll refine the word.

 V. "the network needs ULA as the on-demand and stable addressing which doe=
sn't need much code to support address assignment mechanisms like DHCP or N=
D." I don't think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support =
manual address assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't support=
 automatic address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough reso=
urces to implement a UI for manual address assignment?
[Bing] The lack of resources mainly regarding the network environment, ther=
e might not be a comprehensive network provisioning environment for the nod=
es. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in the embedded=
 system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-generating a UL=
A, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address provisioning proc=
edures.
How are those nodes going to find the MAC address of the link router to com=
municate off-link? If they can't do this, then you don't need ULA, you can =
just use link-local. If they can do this, then they must support router adv=
ertisements or similar. If they support router advertisements, then they ca=
n use autoconfiguration.
[Bing] Surely they need to support SLAAC, it's a basic IPv6 function , the =
draft specifically noted this point.  But if the sensors are in a MANET, th=
en the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional wired SLAAC, sin=
ce MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable for this scenari=
o, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear, will modify later.

If they support SLAAC, then they don't need to be pre-configured, because t=
hey can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addresses. And if they can autoconf=
igure an address, they can use a global address. So there is no need to use=
 ULA.

[Bing] The reasoning is flawed. Let's do not mix the concepts of global add=
r-provisioning and autoconfiguration together. And in MANET, the SLAAC is n=
ot (fully)applicable, see http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-st=
atement-04.html#section-5.2

VI. "there always be some argument that in practice the ULA+PA makes terrib=
le operational complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem; the multip=
le- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 protocol. Runni=
ng multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need to adapt thi=
s new operational model than that in IPv4." This text does not make sense. =
Just because having multiple global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6 do=
esn't mean that you must have multiple global-scope addresses. For example,=
 you can use only global addresses and have no routing complexity.
[Bing] The ULA+PA operational complexity contains two aspect.
One is the common issue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixe=
s in a network is new to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins need to be =
familiar with it in the future.
No, because having multiple prefixes introduces operational complexity even=
 if the admins understand multiple prefixes. All things being equal, having=
 only one prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be simpler than=
 having two.

In other words: what you're saying is "let's create complexity, because adm=
ins will need to understand the complexity anyway". What I'm saying is that=
 while they need to understand the complexity, we don't have to create the =
complexity if we don't need it.
[Bing] No, I'm not say that. ULA+PA is identified as beneficial use case in=
 6renum and Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity if they wan=
t the benefit.

Ok, so then just cite those documents, say that there is a trade off betwee=
n complexity and functionality, and leave it at that?
[Bing] A brief complexity hint would be valuable. Thanks.

B.R.
Bing


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<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 24, 2013 7:42 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Liubing (Leo)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> v6ops@ietf.org; draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools=
.ietf.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops=
-ula-usage-recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM=
, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;V. &quot;the network needs ULA as the o=
n-demand and stable addressing which doesn't need much code to support addr=
ess assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND.&quot; I don't
 think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual addr=
ess assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't support automatic =
address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough resources to im=
plement a UI for manual address
 assignment?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] The lack of re=
sources mainly regarding the network environment, there might not be a comp=
rehensive network provisioning environment
 for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in =
the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-gen=
erating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address provi=
sioning procedures.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">How are those nodes going to find the MAC add=
ress of the link router to communicate off-link? If they can't do this, the=
n you don't need ULA, you can just use
 link-local. If they can do this, then they must support router advertiseme=
nts or similar. If they support router advertisements, then they can use au=
toconfiguration.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] Surely they ne=
ed to support SLAAC, it&#8217;s a basic IPv6 function , the draft specifica=
lly noted this point. &nbsp;But if the sensors are
 in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional w=
ired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable f=
or this scenario, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear, will mo=
dify later.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If they support SLAAC, then they don't need t=
o be pre-configured, because they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addre=
sses. And if they can autoconfigure an
 address, they can use a global address. So there is no need to use ULA.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] The reasoning =
is flawed. Let&#8217;s do not mix the concepts of global addr-provisioning =
and autoconfiguration together.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></spa=
n></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Why is it flawed? You said that=
 a use case for ULA is resource-constrained nodes, because you can pre-assi=
gn addresses to them, and that this simplifies the nodes. But it doesn't si=
mplify the nodes, because even if you
 pre-assign addresses, the nodes still need some mechanism (e.g., RA) in or=
der to find out who you can communicate to. So the nodes have to support RA=
s. And if the nodes support RA, you can use autoconfiguration and you don't=
 need to pre-assign addresses. So
 you can use any type of address, not only ULA. So this is not a use case f=
or ULA.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"><o:p>&nbsp=
;</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<span style=3D"color:#1F4=
97D">[Bing] The flaw is mainly regarding with your argument that if we can =
make autoconfiguration then we can make global prefix. As said in last mail=
, I don&#8217;t think autoconfiguration necessarily
 means global provisioning, they are two perspectives.</span><o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Another=
 point I want to argue is, not only simplify the nodes themselves, but also=
 simplify the network provisioning/management. As discussed below, MANET cu=
rrently could not do well with SLAAC.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">But any=
way, I think the current texts need to be updated to be more sufficient and=
 accurate. Thanks.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">And in MANET, the SLA=
AC is not (fully)applicable, see
<a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html=
#section-5.2" target=3D"_blank">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.=
2</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">That draft expired in 2008, so =
it's not really relevant. Do you have a more up-to-date document?<o:p></o:p=
></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US">=
&nbsp;<span style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] Sorry, I haven&#8217;t be aware =
of a more up-to-date document. But I think the issue is still valid.<o:p></=
o:p></span></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"color:#1F497D">B.R.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"margin-bottom:12.0pt"><span lang=3D"EN-US" =
style=3D"color:#1F497D">Bing<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 8:01 PM=
, Liubing (Leo) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_bl=
ank">leo.liubing@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Hi, Lorenzo</span><span =
lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quo=
t;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span lang=3D"EN-US"=
 style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&=
quot;"> Lorenzo
 Colitti [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lo=
renzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 24, 2013 5:44 PM</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p><=
/o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><br>
<b>To:</b> Liubing (Leo)<br>
<b>Cc:</b> <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf.o=
rg</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.=
ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops=
-ula-usage-recommendations<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Tue, May 21, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Liubing (Leo=
) &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:leo.liubing@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">leo.liubi=
ng@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">No, the probability is much higher than you t=
hink. See RFC 4193 section 3.2.3. If I'm reading that section correctly, if=
 you generate 10000 ULAs you'll get a
 collision 1 in 500k times. If you generate 100000 (e.g., if you regenerate=
 them once a second, for one day) you'll get a collision once in 1000 times=
. And so on.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] In theory, I a=
gree with you. But the point here is where do we need to change the ULA so =
frequently? For random draw? I can hardly
 imagine a use case of that.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span><=
/p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">This is a technical document meant to provide=
 guidance, so I'd say that it's not appropriate to use vague words like reg=
ularly &quot;regularly&quot;, without stating what
 they mean to state what it means. Can I generate 10000 ULAs per second, as=
 long as I do it &quot;regularly&quot;? Likely not.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">So you either remove the text, or state that =
if ULAs are generated regularly, then collisions are possible, and perhaps =
provide provide an example that calculates
 the probability of collision with some reasonal value of the regeneration =
interval.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] OK, I&#8217;ll=
 refine the word.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;V. &quot;the network needs ULA as the o=
n-demand and stable addressing which doesn't need much code to support addr=
ess assignment mechanisms like DHCP or ND.&quot; I don't
 think this makes sense. Are you saying such nodes only support manual addr=
ess assignment? How is it possible that a sensor doesn't support automatic =
address assignment due to lack of resources, but has enough resources to im=
plement a UI for manual address
 assignment?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] The lack of re=
sources mainly regarding the network environment, there might not be a comp=
rehensive network provisioning environment
 for the nodes. If they can be pre-configured with ULA, say, hard-coded in =
the embedded system, like the MAC addresses in every single NIC or self-gen=
erating a ULA, then they could make ad-hoc networking without address provi=
sioning procedures.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">How are those nodes going to find the MAC add=
ress of the link router to communicate off-link? If they can't do this, the=
n you don't need ULA, you can just use
 link-local. If they can do this, then they must support router advertiseme=
nts or similar. If they support router advertisements, then they can use au=
toconfiguration.&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] Surely they ne=
ed to support SLAAC, it&#8217;s a basic IPv6 function , the draft specifica=
lly noted this point. &nbsp;But if the sensors are
 in a MANET, then the autoconfiguration is different with the traditional w=
ired SLAAC, since MANET is based on a multi hop topology. ULA is suitable f=
or this scenario, however, current text seems not sufficient/clear, will mo=
dify later.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">If they support SLAAC, then they don't need t=
o be pre-configured, because they can just use SLAAC to autoconfigure addre=
sses. And if they can autoconfigure an
 address, they can use a global address. So there is no need to use ULA.<o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;C=
alibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] The reasoning =
is flawed. Let&#8217;s do not mix the concepts of global addr-provisioning =
and autoconfiguration together. And in MANET,
 the SLAAC is not (fully)applicable, see <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.2" target=3D"_blank">
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-autoconf-statement-04.html#section-5.=
2</a></span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0c=
m 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-top:5.0pt;margin-right:0cm;margin-=
bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm =
4.0pt">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#500050">VI. &quot;there alway=
s be some argument that in practice the ULA&#43;PA makes terrible operation=
al complexity. But it is not a ULA-specific problem;
 the multiple- addresses-per-interface is an important feature of IPv6 prot=
ocol. Running multiple prefixes in IPv6 might be very common, and we need t=
o adapt this new operational model than that in IPv4.&quot; This text does =
not make sense. Just because having multiple
 global-scope addresses is a feature of IPv6 doesn't mean that you must hav=
e multiple global-scope addresses. For example, you can use only global add=
resses and have no routing complexity.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:=
p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] The ULA&#43;PA=
 operational complexity contains two aspect.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">One is the common iss=
ue as described in the texts, running multiple prefixes in a network is new=
 to the traditional IPv4 model, the admins
 need to be familiar with it in the future.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p=
></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">No, because having multiple prefixes introduc=
es operational complexity even if the admins understand multiple prefixes. =
All things being equal, having only one
 prefix (e.g., a global prefix) is always going to be simpler than having t=
wo.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">In other words: what you're saying is &quot;l=
et's create complexity, because admins will need to understand the complexi=
ty anyway&quot;. What I'm saying is that while they
 need to understand the complexity, we don't have to create the complexity =
if we don't need it.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] No, I&#8217;m =
not say that. ULA&#43;PA is identified as beneficial use case in 6renum and=
 Homenet. So the admins need to adapt the complexity
 if they want the benefit.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p=
>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Ok, so then just cite those documents, say th=
at there is a trade off between complexity and functionality, and leave it =
at that?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">[Bing] A brief comple=
xity hint would be valuable. Thanks.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p>=
</span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">&nbsp;</span><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">B.R.</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-a=
lt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"color:#1F497D">Bing</span><span lang=
=3D"EN-US"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</body>
</html>

--_000_8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D72970Bnkgeml506mbxchi_--

From sander@steffann.nl  Sat May 25 04:28:58 2013
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From: Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl>
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To: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Hi,

>> There seems to be small but quite persistent faction that insists on =
the
>> notion that functionally limited systems are incapable of operating
>> around the incredibly basic set of functional building blocks for an
>> ipv6 network on their link-layer of choice.
>=20
> An autoconfiguration feature is a functionality, and compares badly to =
whatever static preconfiguration, in terms of memory/cpu constraints.
>=20
> I really dont see why arguing against this, it's simply basics.

I think what everybody is trying to tell you is that using a networking =
protocol only works if you follow the protocol's rules. IPv6 networks =
are divided into subnets, usually a /64 net network. Devices on the =
network need to know (a) which network they are on (prefix) and (b) what =
the gateway to other networks is. Depending on the setup and additional =
rules defined by the environment you might be able to hard-code (b).

Hard-coding (a) is the problem that everybody is pointing at: there will =
be >1 networks so you don't know up front which network the device will =
be connected to. Now you can pretend that there is only 1 network and =
hard-code all addresses from the same /64 prefix (ULA or global, doesn't =
matter, it's just a number) but then devices from other networks will =
have no way of communicating with them (because the rest of the world =
can't distinguish between the different instances of that 'one' =
network). This is scenario 1 that Owen described: "Multiple devices with =
the same prefix not on the same network". You might as well use =
link-local addresses in that case... If you use multiple /64s then you =
run into scenario 2: "Multiple devices with different prefixes unable to =
recognize each other on the same network".

The problem is not in which set of addresses you use but the fact that =
your device will be less flexible in its behaviour than the environment =
it is supposed to work in. It won't adapt to its environment and will =
not work properly.

The only thing you might do is to let the users 'burn in' the addresses =
themselves when installing the device. The user is then responsible for =
adapting the device to the environment (network) it is going to be used =
on. I just don't see why you would want to force such an user-unfriendly =
and error-prone task task on the user/installer when with a tiny bit of =
extra code you could make the device auto-configure itself by listening =
to Router Advertisements...

Cheers,
Sander


From rdroms.ietf@gmail.com  Sat May 25 07:06:04 2013
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From: Ralph Droms <rdroms.ietf@gmail.com>
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Subject: [v6ops] Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-droms-6man-multicast-scopes-00.txt
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This draft proposes to redefine IPv6 multicast scope 0x03 from =
"reserved" to "Network-Specific scope, greater than Link-Local scope, =
defined automatically from the network topology".  The expectation is =
that mesh trickle multicast, as defined in =
draft-ietf-roll-trickle-mcast, will define multicast scope 0x03 as "all =
interfaces attached to links in the mesh", for use in multicast =
delivery.

I've requested a slot on the 6man agenda in Berlin to discuss the draft.

- Ralph

Begin forwarded message:

> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Subject: New Version Notification for =
draft-droms-6man-multicast-scopes-00.txt
> Date: May 22, 2013 3:15:22 PM EDT
> To: Ralph Droms <rdroms@cisco.com>
>=20
>=20
> A new version of I-D, draft-droms-6man-multicast-scopes-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Ralph Droms and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>=20
> Filename:	 draft-droms-6man-multicast-scopes
> Revision:	 00
> Title:		 IPv6 Multicast Address Scopes
> Creation date:	 2013-05-22
> Group:		 Individual Submission
> Number of pages: 3
> URL:             =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-droms-6man-multicast-scopes-00.t=
xt
> Status:          =
http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-droms-6man-multicast-scopes
> Htmlized:        =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-droms-6man-multicast-scopes-00
>=20
>=20
> Abstract:
>  This document updates the definitions of IPv6 multicast scopes.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> The IETF Secretariat
>=20


From owen@delong.com  Sat May 25 11:43:25 2013
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Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Fwd:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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On May 24, 2013, at 11:45 , Alexandru Petrescu =
<alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

> Le 23/05/2013 23:08, Mark Smith a =E9crit :
>> Hi,
>>=20
>>=20
>> Suggested changes:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> 1. Introduction
>>=20
>> "... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a LAN."
>>=20
>>=20
>> to
>>=20
>> ""... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a single LAN interface."
>>=20
>> Generally I think this intro text should make it a bit clearer that
>> these methods are only extending the /64 to a single LAN interface.
>=20

How can that work in the real world?

For example, with my iPhone 5 running on VZW, I seem to get the same /64
over the WiFi (mobile hotspot), the Cellular_PDP0 interface (the actual
cellular interface), BlueTooth (mobile hotspot), and USB (mobile =
hotspot).

=46rom my perspective that's 3 LAN interfaces and a WAN interface =
sharing the
same /64.

> Yes.
>=20
> Moreover, it should be clear that this extension only works with only
> one level of extension (one cant have 64share-64share-... =
indefinitely,
> not even twice).
>=20

This part makes sense to me.

But bridging the 64share prefix across multiple LAN interfaces on the
device (or even extending it via bridges on the LAN side) does not seem
to be a problem IMHO.

> This could go as far as to say that the 64share method works only for
> static UEs.  It sounds negative, I know, but the reliability of this
> should be acknowledged.

I wouldn't go quite that far. Acknowledging the limitations makes sense =
to me.
Expanding upon those limitations to say that nobody can make a decision =
to
accept them and deploy anyway is not correct, IMHO.

Owen


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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On May 25, 2013 11:43 AM, "Owen DeLong" <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>
>
> On May 24, 2013, at 11:45 , Alexandru Petrescu <
alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Le 23/05/2013 23:08, Mark Smith a =E9crit :
> >> Hi,
> >>
> >>
> >> Suggested changes:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> 1. Introduction
> >>
> >> "... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a LAN."
> >>
> >>
> >> to
> >>
> >> ""... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a single LAN interface."
> >>
> >> Generally I think this intro text should make it a bit clearer that
> >> these methods are only extending the /64 to a single LAN interface.
> >
>
> How can that work in the real world?
>
> For example, with my iPhone 5 running on VZW, I seem to get the same /64
> over the WiFi (mobile hotspot), the Cellular_PDP0 interface (the actual
> cellular interface), BlueTooth (mobile hotspot), and USB (mobile hotspot)=
.
>
> From my perspective that's 3 LAN interfaces and a WAN interface sharing
the
> same /64.
>

At the same time?

In any event, that implementation you mentioned is not publicly documented.
The folks at Apple and Verizon are welcome to share their wisdom on this
topic.

In any event, the work of this draft is to  use the open ietf process to
get folks on the same page so the wheel does not get reinvented several
times in a vacume.

CB

> > Yes.
> >
> > Moreover, it should be clear that this extension only works with only
> > one level of extension (one cant have 64share-64share-... indefinitely,
> > not even twice).
> >
>
> This part makes sense to me.
>
> But bridging the 64share prefix across multiple LAN interfaces on the
> device (or even extending it via bridges on the LAN side) does not seem
> to be a problem IMHO.
>
> > This could go as far as to say that the 64share method works only for
> > static UEs.  It sounds negative, I know, but the reliability of this
> > should be acknowledged.
>
> I wouldn't go quite that far. Acknowledging the limitations makes sense
to me.
> Expanding upon those limitations to say that nobody can make a decision t=
o
> accept them and deploy anyway is not correct, IMHO.
>
> Owen
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

--047d7bdc12ee6b4bd704dd90bb82
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<p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
On May 25, 2013 11:43 AM, &quot;Owen DeLong&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:owe=
n@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On May 24, 2013, at 11:45 , Alexandru Petrescu &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:a=
lexandru.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br=
>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Le 23/05/2013 23:08, Mark Smith a =E9crit :<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Suggested changes:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; 1. Introduction<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a LAN.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; to<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; &quot;&quot;... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a single LAN =
interface.&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Generally I think this intro text should make it a bit cleare=
r that<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; these methods are only extending the /64 to a single LAN inte=
rface.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; How can that work in the real world?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; For example, with my iPhone 5 running on VZW, I seem to get the same /=
64<br>
&gt; over the WiFi (mobile hotspot), the Cellular_PDP0 interface (the actua=
l<br>
&gt; cellular interface), BlueTooth (mobile hotspot), and USB (mobile hotsp=
ot).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; From my perspective that&#39;s 3 LAN interfaces and a WAN interface sh=
aring the<br>
&gt; same /64.<br>
&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">At the same time?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">In any event, that implementation you mentioned is not publi=
cly documented. The folks at Apple and Verizon are welcome to share their w=
isdom on this topic. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">In any event, the work of this draft is to=A0 use the open i=
etf process to get folks on the same page so the wheel does not get reinven=
ted several times in a vacume.</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">CB</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">&gt; &gt; Yes.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Moreover, it should be clear that this extension only works with =
only<br>
&gt; &gt; one level of extension (one cant have 64share-64share-... indefin=
itely,<br>
&gt; &gt; not even twice).<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; This part makes sense to me.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; But bridging the 64share prefix across multiple LAN interfaces on the<=
br>
&gt; device (or even extending it via bridges on the LAN side) does not see=
m<br>
&gt; to be a problem IMHO.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; This could go as far as to say that the 64share method works only=
 for<br>
&gt; &gt; static UEs. =A0It sounds negative, I know, but the reliability of=
 this<br>
&gt; &gt; should be acknowledged.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; I wouldn&#39;t go quite that far. Acknowledging the limitations makes =
sense to me.<br>
&gt; Expanding upon those limitations to say that nobody can make a decisio=
n to<br>
&gt; accept them and deploy anyway is not correct, IMHO.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Owen<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; _______________________________________________<br>
&gt; v6ops mailing list<br>
&gt; <a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
&gt; <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops">https://www.ie=
tf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
</p>

--047d7bdc12ee6b4bd704dd90bb82--

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Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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>> That doesn't mean that they don't need to support RA or that they =
cannot
>> autoconfigure an address. There is no valid reason these devices =
should
>> have burned-in ULA. Such an addressing scheme would, in fact, be =
quite
>> dysfunctional.
>=20
> Not sure what you mean.
>=20
> But sure a device which has its address pre-configured could go very =
far in reducing its memory/cpu print.
>=20

You can go even further if you take out the IP stack altogether. At some =
point, there's diminishing returns.

Failure to support RA and SLAAC at a minimum is, IMHO, below that =
threshold.

>>> The addresses of the lights, garage doors and aircon devices MUST =
NOT
>>> change since the
>>> remote controls, sensors and wall controllers are permanently paired
>>> to the IPv6 addresses of
>>> lights, garage doors and aircon devices on the application level.
>>=20
>> That's just really, REALLY bad application design. How do all of =
these
>> ULA prefixes get properly routed when the devices are moved from one
>> segment in the home to another? Do you add a giant layer of MIP
>> complexity to the ULA in order to make that all work?
>>=20
>> The smaller devices need to be paired with the oversight =
application(s).
>=20
> ?
>=20
> Its sufficient for the remote apps to be preconfigured with the =
devices' addresses, no need to preconfigure the other way around.

How does one reach the other? How do these preconfigured addresses find =
each other?

If you're proposing building in a limitation that they all have to be on =
the same link, then there's no reason to use ULA, you can just use link =
local.

If not, you have some 'splaining to do in answering the above question.

>> Those application(s) should provide the required directory services =
for
>> them to obtain the IPv6 address(es) of other devices they need to
>> communicate with. (The oversight application could be as simple as a
>> dynamic DNS server or as complex as a centralized home automation
>> management application. Whether support for pairing with more than =
one
>> oversight application is required is left as an exercise for the =
device
>> manufacturers.
>=20
> Its a way of doing it.
>=20
> And there are other simpler ways.

Such as? Note, ways which require all devices to be on the same link are =
not a valid answer as such ways do not need ULA and can use LL instead.

Owen


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Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On May 24, 2013, at 20:16 , Doug Barton <dougb@dougbarton.us> wrote:

> On 05/24/2013 02:52 AM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:
>> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:21 AM, Brian E Carpenter
>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> =
wrote:
>>=20
>>    That's correct, of course. The underlying problem here is that the
>>    notion of concentric circles of scope that was originally =
described
>>    for IPv6 is simply broken. We can't fix that in the context of
>>    describing ULA usage scenarios, so let's not try.
>>=20
>>=20
>> Actually, I think the underlying problem as regards this specific =
draft
>> is that ULAs were not well thought-out. They came out of a compromise
>> where no side got what it wanted and what we got was a
>> poorly-understood, possibly unusable hybrid.
>=20
> Or, ULAs are just fine for their intended purpose, it's just that you =
don't like the purpose. :)

I'm still waiting for someone to clearly state what that purpose is.

Owen


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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>, Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Fwd:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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=0A=0A=0A=0A----- Original Message -----=0A> From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong=
.com>=0A> To: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>=0A> Cc: v6o=
ps@ietf.org=0A> Sent: Sunday, 26 May 2013 4:42 AM=0A> Subject: Re: [v6ops] =
Fwd:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt=0A> =0A> =0A> On May 24, =
2013, at 11:45 , Alexandru Petrescu =0A> <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wro=
te:=0A> =0A>>  Le 23/05/2013 23:08, Mark Smith a =E9crit :=0A>>>  Hi,=0A>>>=
 =0A>>> =0A>>>  Suggested changes:=0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>> =0A>>>  1. Introduct=
ion=0A>>> =0A>>>  "... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a LAN."=0A>>> =0A>>>=
 =0A>>>  to=0A>>> =0A>>>  ""... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a single LA=
N =0A> interface."=0A>>> =0A>>>  Generally I think this intro text should m=
ake it a bit clearer that=0A>>>  these methods are only extending the /64 t=
o a single LAN interface.=0A>> =0A> =0A> How can that work in the real worl=
d?=0A> =0A> For example, with my iPhone 5 running on VZW, I seem to get the=
 same /64=0A> over the WiFi (mobile hotspot), the Cellular_PDP0 interface (=
the actual=0A> cellular interface), BlueTooth (mobile hotspot), and USB (mo=
bile hotspot).=0A>=A0=0A=0AI think the "LAN interface" in this draft is fro=
m the perspective of IPv6, and in your scenario, all those interfaces, if t=
hey're all using the same /64, are a single LAN (perhaps they're bridged or=
 some similar trick below IPv6).=0A=0AHowever, maybe it would be better to =
adopt the IPv6 RFC2461 "Link" terminology i.e. this draft is extending the =
use of the 3GPP /64 prefix onto another link available on the UE, such as a=
 Wifi interface etc.=0A=0A> From my perspective that's 3 LAN interfaces and=
 a WAN interface sharing the=0A> same /64.=0A> =0A>>  Yes.=0A>> =0A>>  More=
over, it should be clear that this extension only works with only=0A>>  one=
 level of extension (one cant have 64share-64share-... indefinitely,=0A>>  =
not even twice).=0A>> =0A> =0A> This part makes sense to me.=0A> =0A> But b=
ridging the 64share prefix across multiple LAN interfaces on the=0A> device=
 (or even extending it via bridges on the LAN side) does not seem=0A> to be=
 a problem IMHO.=0A> =0A>>  This could go as far as to say that the 64share=
 method works only for=0A>>  static UEs.=A0 It sounds negative, I know, but=
 the reliability of this=0A>>  should be acknowledged.=0A> =0A> I wouldn't =
go quite that far. Acknowledging the limitations makes sense to =0A> me.=0A=
> Expanding upon those limitations to say that nobody can make a decision t=
o=0A> accept them and deploy anyway is not correct, IMHO.=0A> =0A> Owen=0A>=
 =0A> _______________________________________________=0A> v6ops mailing lis=
t=0A> v6ops@ietf.org=0A> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=0A> 

From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Sat May 25 19:48:53 2013
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Date: Sun, 26 May 2013 14:48:58 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On 26/05/2013 13:58, Owen DeLong wrote:
> On May 24, 2013, at 20:16 , Doug Barton <dougb@dougbarton.us> wrote:
> 
>> On 05/24/2013 02:52 AM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:
>>> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:21 AM, Brian E Carpenter
>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>>    That's correct, of course. The underlying problem here is that the
>>>    notion of concentric circles of scope that was originally described
>>>    for IPv6 is simply broken. We can't fix that in the context of
>>>    describing ULA usage scenarios, so let's not try.
>>>
>>>
>>> Actually, I think the underlying problem as regards this specific draft
>>> is that ULAs were not well thought-out. They came out of a compromise
>>> where no side got what it wanted and what we got was a
>>> poorly-understood, possibly unusable hybrid.
>> Or, ULAs are just fine for their intended purpose, it's just that you don't like the purpose. :)
> 
> I'm still waiting for someone to clearly state what that purpose is.

I really don't see what's wrong with the Abstract of RFC 4193.

If you don't see a need personally or for your customers, that's
fine. All the IETF does is provide mechanisms; users decide which
ones to use.

    Brian

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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Fwd:  I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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>>>>=20
>>>> Generally I think this intro text should make it a bit clearer that
>>>> these methods are only extending the /64 to a single LAN interface.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> How can that work in the real world?
>>=20
>> For example, with my iPhone 5 running on VZW, I seem to get the same =
/64
>> over the WiFi (mobile hotspot), the Cellular_PDP0 interface (the =
actual
>> cellular interface), BlueTooth (mobile hotspot), and USB (mobile =
hotspot).
>> =20
>=20
> I think the "LAN interface" in this draft is from the perspective of =
IPv6, and in your scenario, all those interfaces, if they're all using =
the same /64, are a single LAN (perhaps they're bridged or some similar =
trick below IPv6).
>=20
> However, maybe it would be better to adopt the IPv6 RFC2461 "Link" =
terminology i.e. this draft is extending the use of the 3GPP /64 prefix =
onto another link available on the UE, such as a Wifi interface etc.
>=20

Agreed... If the terminology were changed form interface (which has a =
vague meaning in IPv6) to link (which is more specific and more =
appropriate), then I would agree.

Owen


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On May 25, 2013, at 19:48 , Brian E Carpenter =
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 26/05/2013 13:58, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> On May 24, 2013, at 20:16 , Doug Barton <dougb@dougbarton.us> wrote:
>>=20
>>> On 05/24/2013 02:52 AM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:
>>>> On Wed, May 22, 2013 at 5:21 AM, Brian E Carpenter
>>>> <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com <mailto:brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>> =
wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>   That's correct, of course. The underlying problem here is that =
the
>>>>   notion of concentric circles of scope that was originally =
described
>>>>   for IPv6 is simply broken. We can't fix that in the context of
>>>>   describing ULA usage scenarios, so let's not try.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Actually, I think the underlying problem as regards this specific =
draft
>>>> is that ULAs were not well thought-out. They came out of a =
compromise
>>>> where no side got what it wanted and what we got was a
>>>> poorly-understood, possibly unusable hybrid.
>>> Or, ULAs are just fine for their intended purpose, it's just that =
you don't like the purpose. :)
>>=20
>> I'm still waiting for someone to clearly state what that purpose is.
>=20
> I really don't see what's wrong with the Abstract of RFC 4193.
>=20

The abstract is fine. However, it doesn't answer the question asked. The =
abstract does a great job of describing what ULA does.

It does nothing to explain what problem that solves or what purpose it =
serves in doing so.

> If you don't see a need personally or for your customers, that's
> fine. All the IETF does is provide mechanisms; users decide which
> ones to use.

Ideally, it would be nice if the IETF focused on mechanisms that had a =
real world purpose. Solutions looking for a problem tend to create more =
problems than they solve. In many ways, ULA seems to fit that =
definition.

Owen


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On May 25, 2013, at 13:26 , cb.list6 <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:

>=20
> On May 25, 2013 11:43 AM, "Owen DeLong" <owen@delong.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > On May 24, 2013, at 11:45 , Alexandru Petrescu =
<alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > Le 23/05/2013 23:08, Mark Smith a =E9crit :
> > >> Hi,
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Suggested changes:
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> 1. Introduction
> > >>
> > >> "... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a LAN."
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> to
> > >>
> > >> ""... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a single LAN interface."
> > >>
> > >> Generally I think this intro text should make it a bit clearer =
that
> > >> these methods are only extending the /64 to a single LAN =
interface.
> > >
> >
> > How can that work in the real world?
> >
> > For example, with my iPhone 5 running on VZW, I seem to get the same =
/64
> > over the WiFi (mobile hotspot), the Cellular_PDP0 interface (the =
actual
> > cellular interface), BlueTooth (mobile hotspot), and USB (mobile =
hotspot).
> >
> > =46rom my perspective that's 3 LAN interfaces and a WAN interface =
sharing the
> > same /64.
> >
>=20
> At the same time?
>=20
>=20
Yes..

> In any event, that implementation you mentioned is not publicly =
documented. The folks at Apple and Verizon are welcome to share their =
wisdom on this topic.
>=20
Agreed. I wish they would/hope they do. However, bottom line, it's =
running code today.
> In any event, the work of this draft is to  use the open ietf process =
to get folks on the same page so the wheel does not get reinvented =
several times in a vacume.
>=20

Agreed. However, that doesn't mean we need to invent an inferior wheel.

Owen



--Apple-Mail=_5511B82A-42C3-4976-8A91-66D1E81ACF83
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=iso-8859-1

<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html =
charset=3Diso-8859-1"></head><body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; =
-webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; =
"><br><div><div>On May 25, 2013, at 13:26 , cb.list6 &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com">cb.list6@gmail.com</a>&gt; =
wrote:</div><br class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
On May 25, 2013 11:43 AM, "Owen DeLong" &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; On May 24, 2013, at 11:45 , Alexandru Petrescu &lt;<a =
href=3D"mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com">alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com<=
/a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Le 23/05/2013 23:08, Mark Smith a =E9crit :<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Hi,<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Suggested changes:<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; 1. Introduction<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; "... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a LAN."<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; to<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; ""... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a single LAN =
interface."<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Generally I think this intro text should make it a bit =
clearer that<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; these methods are only extending the /64 to a single LAN =
interface.<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; How can that work in the real world?<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; For example, with my iPhone 5 running on VZW, I seem to get the =
same /64<br>
&gt; over the WiFi (mobile hotspot), the Cellular_PDP0 interface (the =
actual<br>
&gt; cellular interface), BlueTooth (mobile hotspot), and USB (mobile =
hotspot).<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; =46rom my perspective that's 3 LAN interfaces and a WAN interface =
sharing the<br>
&gt; same /64.<br>
&gt;</p><p dir=3D"ltr">At the same =
time?</p><div><br></div></blockquote>Yes..</div><div><br><blockquote =
type=3D"cite"><p dir=3D"ltr">In any event, that implementation you =
mentioned is not publicly documented. The folks at Apple and Verizon are =
welcome to share their wisdom on this topic. =
</p></blockquote><div>Agreed. I wish they would/hope they do. However, =
bottom line, it's running code today.</div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><p =
dir=3D"ltr">In any event, the work of this draft is to&nbsp; use the =
open ietf process to get folks on the same page so the wheel does not =
get reinvented several times in a vacume.</p></blockquote><br>Agreed. =
However, that doesn't mean we need to invent an inferior =
wheel.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br></div><br></body></html=
>=

--Apple-Mail=_5511B82A-42C3-4976-8A91-66D1E81ACF83--

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From: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>
To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile WGLC
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This is to initiate a two week working group last call of http://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile. Please read it now. If yo=
u find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wording changes, etc), commen=
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We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the document =
as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be =
of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make.




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To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
References: <201305181245.r4ICj0i04824@ftpeng-update.cisco.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D722B0E@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr1UPt6WcAeDbuZzP6Cf5EThy7pGWuu8i6WsJXMNoaCAgQ@mail.gmail.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D726A66@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> <719D38CF-F3CD-4BB3-85DC-B7811AC81891@delong.com> <519BD73B.50200@gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr1a+khdqoVhq82OToq1o0E1HsQaU45-t5Ltf7sq0dQOFQ@mail.gmail.com> <51A02D23.6080101@dougbarton.us> <F7D66157-0006-4BB2-8BF0-A892C5A85E8E@delong.com> <51A1781A.3040903@gmail.com> <8E61CD47-B0CC-44E3-A253-38087E72DBF1@delong.com>
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Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 08:08:44 +1000
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Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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> Ideally, it would be nice if the IETF focused on mechanisms that had a real world purpose. Solutions
>  looking for a problem tend to create more problems than they solve. In many ways, ULA seems to fit 
> that definition.
> 
> Owen

Owen, there is no perfect solution to numbering residential networks.

* getting addresses from a RIR works worse than ULA as you can't get
  them routed and RIR address are not in a well defined range.

* getting addresses from a ISP doesn't work as you need addresses
  before your initial connection.  Additionally they require
  full renumbering when switching providers or when the ISP decides
  to rejig their address plan.

Mark
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

From cb.list6@gmail.com  Sun May 26 15:27:23 2013
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From: "cb.list6" <cb.list6@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 10:33 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>
> On May 25, 2013, at 13:26 , cb.list6 <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> On May 25, 2013 11:43 AM, "Owen DeLong" <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On May 24, 2013, at 11:45 , Alexandru Petrescu
>> <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > Le 23/05/2013 23:08, Mark Smith a =E9crit :
>> >> Hi,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Suggested changes:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> 1. Introduction
>> >>
>> >> "... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a LAN."
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> to
>> >>
>> >> ""... for delegating IPv6 prefixes to a single LAN interface."
>> >>
>> >> Generally I think this intro text should make it a bit clearer that
>> >> these methods are only extending the /64 to a single LAN interface.
>> >
>>
>> How can that work in the real world?
>>
>> For example, with my iPhone 5 running on VZW, I seem to get the same /64
>> over the WiFi (mobile hotspot), the Cellular_PDP0 interface (the actual
>> cellular interface), BlueTooth (mobile hotspot), and USB (mobile hotspot=
).
>>
>> From my perspective that's 3 LAN interfaces and a WAN interface sharing
>> the
>> same /64.
>>
>
> At the same time?
>
>
> Yes..
>
> In any event, that implementation you mentioned is not publicly documente=
d.
> The folks at Apple and Verizon are welcome to share their wisdom on this
> topic.
>
> Agreed. I wish they would/hope they do. However, bottom line, it's runnin=
g
> code today.
>
> In any event, the work of this draft is to  use the open ietf process to =
get
> folks on the same page so the wheel does not get reinvented several times=
 in
> a vacume.
>
>
> Agreed. However, that doesn't mean we need to invent an inferior wheel.
>
> Owen
>

well, we ship what gets rough consensus, not what is "best" for some
value of "best"

Back in the archives, we scoped the scenario to be one routed
down-link due to folks concerns about loops that would result from
having multiple interfaces up with the same prefix.

i think the discussion was somewhere around here and how NDproxy was
not acceptable

http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg13954.html and
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg15020.html

CB

>

From internet-drafts@ietf.org  Sun May 26 23:24:32 2013
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Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-03.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts director=
ies.
 This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF.

	Title           : IPv6 for 3GPP Cellular Hosts
	Author(s)       : Jouni Korhonen
                          Jari Arkko
                          Teemu Savolainen
                          Suresh Krishnan
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-03.txt
	Pages           : 19
	Date            : 2013-05-26

Abstract:
   As the deployment of third and fourth generation cellular networks
   progresses, a large number of cellular hosts are being connected to
   the Internet.  Standardization organizations have made Internet
   Protocol version 6 (IPv6) mandatory in their specifications.
   However, the concept of IPv6 covers many aspects and numerous
   specifications.  In addition, the characteristics of cellular links
   in terms of bandwidth, cost and delay put special requirements on how
   IPv6 is used.  This document considers IPv6 for cellular hosts that
   attach to the General Packet Radio Service (GPRS), Universal Mobile
   Telecommunications System (UMTS), or Evolved Packet System (EPS)
   networks (Hereafter collectively referred to as 3GPP networks).  This
   document also lists out specific IPv6 functionalities that need to be
   implemented in addition what is already prescribed in the IPv6 Node
   Requirements document.  It also discusses some issues related to the
   use of these components when operating in these networks.  This
   document obsoletes RFC 3316.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis

There's also a htmlized version available at:
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-03

A diff from the previous version is available at:
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-03


Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From gert@space.net  Mon May 27 03:24:56 2013
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From: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>
To: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Hi,

On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 08:08:44AM +1000, Mark Andrews wrote:
> Owen, there is no perfect solution to numbering residential networks.
> 
> * getting addresses from a RIR works worse than ULA as you can't get
>   them routed and RIR address are not in a well defined range.
> 
> * getting addresses from a ISP doesn't work as you need addresses
>   before your initial connection.  Additionally they require
>   full renumbering when switching providers or when the ISP decides
>   to rejig their address plan.

Maybe it really should be stated twice per mail that this is talking
about "large scale residentical ISPs"

I can already see Owen speak up "of course my ISP is routing my IPv6 PI
space".  Yes, some will, and will take extra money for it (and that is
all fine), but the vast majority of users will not go there.

Gert Doering
        -- NetMaster
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG                        Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14          Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
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Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444            USt-IdNr.: DE813185279

From joelja@bogus.com  Mon May 27 07:57:24 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft:	draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On 5/24/13 2:19 PM, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
> Le 24/05/2013 23:11, joel jaeggli a écrit :
>> On 5/24/13 1:36 PM, Gert Doering wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 24, 2013 at 08:51:05PM +0200, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
>>>>> That doesn't mean that they don't need to support RA or that they
>>>>> cannot
>>>>> autoconfigure an address. There is no valid reason these devices 
>>>>> should
>>>>> have burned-in ULA. Such an addressing scheme would, in fact, be 
>>>>> quite
>>>>> dysfunctional.
>>>> Not sure what you mean.
>>>>
>>>> But sure a device which has its address pre-configured could go 
>>>> very far
>>>> in reducing its memory/cpu print.
>> A decade ago dallas-semiconductor had a working v6 stack on a 8051 based
>> 8 bit microcontroller with 64k of rom...
>
> That was then.
>
> Since then even smaller platforms are tried.
>
>> There seems to be small but quite persistent faction that insists on the
>> notion that functionally limited systems are incapable of operating
>> around the incredibly basic set of functional building blocks for an
>> ipv6 network on their link-layer of choice.
>
> An autoconfiguration feature is a functionality, and compares badly to 
> whatever static preconfiguration, in terms of memory/cpu constraints.
>
> I really dont see why arguing against this, it's simply basics.
A dynamically configured system may be dramatically less costly to setup 
and intergrate. it may be signficantly less brittle in the face of 
change and fail (on in fact not fail) a lot more gracefully.

A statically configured system still has to employ NDP and unless you 
want really ugly failures in the face of misconfiguration, guard against 
duplicates so the dynamic code path remains.

it is being discussed because you bring up the question the context of 
ula usage recommendations draft.
>
> Alex
>
>
>  Frankly I don't see it. IETF
>> participants have invested a lot of productive time and energy in
>> low-power/low signalling/low bandwidth embedded networking, stripping
>> out the things that make it flexible robust and easy to deploy in the
>> interest of something that might notionally be more compact then the
>> toolkit we have at present, seems incredibly limiting.
>>
>> Can you do it? Sure. In fact, nobody is going to stop you.
>>
>> Is it an "improvement"? Maybe by some measure, but I kind of doubt it.
>>> As could a device without a network stack.
>>>
>>> Your point being?
>>>
>>> Gert Doering
>>>          -- NetMaster
>>
>>
>>
>
>


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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Doug Barton <dougb@dougbarton.us> wrote:

> Or, ULAs are just fine for their intended purpose, it's just that you
> don't like the purpose. :)
>

I don't feed trolls unless they tell me what to eat :-)

--001a11c357c46f739a04ddb50b60
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, May 25, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Doug Barton <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:dougb@dougbarton.us" target=3D"_blank">dougb@do=
ugbarton.us</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><span style=3D"color:rgb(3=
4,34,34)">Or, ULAs are just fine for their intended purpose, it&#39;s just =
that you don&#39;t like the purpose. :)</span></div>

</blockquote><div style><br>I don&#39;t feed trolls unless they tell me wha=
t to eat :-)</div></div></div></div>

--001a11c357c46f739a04ddb50b60--

From lorenzo@google.com  Mon May 27 08:48:20 2013
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 00:47:58 +0900
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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--20cf300fb23de007fd04ddb513ff
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On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:

>
> > Ideally, it would be nice if the IETF focused on mechanisms that had a
> real world purpose. Solutions
> >  looking for a problem tend to create more problems than they solve. In
> many ways, ULA seems to fit
> > that definition.
>
> Owen, there is no perfect solution to numbering residential networks.
>
> * getting addresses from a RIR works worse than ULA as you can't get
>   them routed and RIR address are not in a well defined range.
>

You can't get ULAs routed either.


> * getting addresses from a ISP doesn't work as you need addresses
>   before your initial connection.  Additionally they require
>   full renumbering when switching providers or when the ISP decides
>   to rejig their address plan.
>

Agreed, ULA gives you stable addresses for a disconnected network.

--20cf300fb23de007fd04ddb513ff
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Mark Andrews <span dir=3D=
"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:marka@isc.org" target=3D"_blank">marka@isc.org<=
/a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quo=
te"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-lef=
t:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div class=3D"im"><br>
&gt; Ideally, it would be nice if the IETF focused on mechanisms that had a=
 real world purpose. Solutions<br>
&gt; =A0looking for a problem tend to create more problems than they solve.=
 In many ways, ULA seems to fit<br>
&gt; that definition.<br><br>
</div>Owen, there is no perfect solution to numbering residential networks.=
<br>
<br>
* getting addresses from a RIR works worse than ULA as you can&#39;t get<br=
>
=A0 them routed and RIR address are not in a well defined range.<br></block=
quote><div><br></div><div style>You can&#39;t get ULAs routed either.</div>=
<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

* getting addresses from a ISP doesn&#39;t work as you need addresses<br>
=A0 before your initial connection. =A0Additionally they require<br>
=A0 full renumbering when switching providers or when the ISP decides<br>
=A0 to rejig their address plan.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>=
Agreed, ULA gives you stable addresses for a disconnected network.</div></d=
iv></div></div>

--20cf300fb23de007fd04ddb513ff--

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>> Agreed. However, that doesn't mean we need to invent an inferior =
wheel.
>>=20
>> Owen
>>=20
>=20
> well, we ship what gets rough consensus, not what is "best" for some
> value of "best"
>=20

Unless there is a reason to do so, I cannot imagine that rational =
individuals would come to consensus on an inferior choice.

> Back in the archives, we scoped the scenario to be one routed
> down-link due to folks concerns about loops that would result from
> having multiple interfaces up with the same prefix.

Ah, but as was described earlier, interface !=3D link and if we simply =
move to the term link, the problem is resolved. The use of the term =
interface is what is problematic here. Multiple interfaces which are =
bridged together at layer 2 constitute a single link from an IPv6 =
perspective.

> i think the discussion was somewhere around here and how NDproxy was
> not acceptable
>=20
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg13954.html and
> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg15020.html

Which only applies in the case of multiple links with the same prefix, =
not multiple interfaces within the same link.

Owen


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On May 26, 2013, at 15:08 , Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:

>=20
>> Ideally, it would be nice if the IETF focused on mechanisms that had =
a real world purpose. Solutions
>> looking for a problem tend to create more problems than they solve. =
In many ways, ULA seems to fit=20
>> that definition.
>>=20
>> Owen
>=20
> Owen, there is no perfect solution to numbering residential networks.
>=20
> * getting addresses from a RIR works worse than ULA as you can't get
>  them routed and RIR address are not in a well defined range.
>=20

False... http://www.tunnelbroker.net Q.E.D.

> * getting addresses from a ISP doesn't work as you need addresses
>  before your initial connection.  Additionally they require
>  full renumbering when switching providers or when the ISP decides
>  to rejig their address plan.

Arguable, but not completely unreasonable. Though I question what value =
these unroutable addresses provide that are not available from RIR =
addresses which you may be unable to route.

Owen


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Date: Mon, 27 May 2013 10:35:00 -0700
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To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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On May 27, 2013 10:04 AM, "Owen DeLong" <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>
> >> Agreed. However, that doesn't mean we need to invent an inferior wheel.
> >>
> >> Owen
> >>
> >
> > well, we ship what gets rough consensus, not what is "best" for some
> > value of "best"
> >
>
> Unless there is a reason to do so, I cannot imagine that rational
individuals would come to consensus on an inferior choice.
>
> > Back in the archives, we scoped the scenario to be one routed
> > down-link due to folks concerns about loops that would result from
> > having multiple interfaces up with the same prefix.
>
> Ah, but as was described earlier, interface != link and if we simply move
to the term link, the problem is resolved. The use of the term interface is
what is problematic here. Multiple interfaces which are bridged together at
layer 2 constitute a single link from an IPv6 perspective.
>
> > i think the discussion was somewhere around here and how NDproxy was
> > not acceptable
> >
> > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg13954.html and
> > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg15020.html
>
> Which only applies in the case of multiple links with the same prefix,
not multiple interfaces within the same link.
>
> Owen
>

Ok, so in the draft we change interface to link and the magic of how loops
and so on are prevented is out of scope since it is in the domain of "link"?

I am fine with that.

Is that "one word" change that is  needed to close this particular topic?

CB

--001a11c2257471946a04ddb69155
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<p dir=3D"ltr"><br>
On May 27, 2013 10:04 AM, &quot;Owen DeLong&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:owe=
n@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Agreed. However, that doesn&#39;t mean we need to invent an i=
nferior wheel.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Owen<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; well, we ship what gets rough consensus, not what is &quot;best&q=
uot; for some<br>
&gt; &gt; value of &quot;best&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Unless there is a reason to do so, I cannot imagine that rational indi=
viduals would come to consensus on an inferior choice.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Back in the archives, we scoped the scenario to be one routed<br>
&gt; &gt; down-link due to folks concerns about loops that would result fro=
m<br>
&gt; &gt; having multiple interfaces up with the same prefix.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Ah, but as was described earlier, interface !=3D link and if we simply=
 move to the term link, the problem is resolved. The use of the term interf=
ace is what is problematic here. Multiple interfaces which are bridged toge=
ther at layer 2 constitute a single link from an IPv6 perspective.<br>

&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; i think the discussion was somewhere around here and how NDproxy =
was<br>
&gt; &gt; not acceptable<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg=
13954.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg13954.htm=
l</a> and<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg=
15020.html">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg15020.htm=
l</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Which only applies in the case of multiple links with the same prefix,=
 not multiple interfaces within the same link.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Owen<br>
&gt;</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Ok, so in the draft we change interface to link and the magi=
c of how loops and so on are prevented is out of scope since it is in the d=
omain of &quot;link&quot;?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"> I am fine with that. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Is that &quot;one word&quot; change that is=A0 needed to clo=
se this particular topic?<br></p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">CB</p>

--001a11c2257471946a04ddb69155--

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To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
References: <201305181245.r4ICj0i04824@ftpeng-update.cisco.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D722B0E@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr1UPt6WcAeDbuZzP6Cf5EThy7pGWuu8i6WsJXMNoaCAgQ@mail.gmail.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D726A66@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> <719D38CF-F3CD-4BB3-85DC-B7811AC81891@delong.com> <519BD73B.50200@gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr1a+khdqoVhq82OToq1o0E1HsQaU45-t5Ltf7sq0dQOFQ@mail.gmail.com> <51A02D23.6080101@dougbarton.us> <F7D66157-0006-4BB2-8BF0-A892C5A85E8E@delong.com> <51A1781A.3040903@gmail.com> <8E61CD47-B0CC-44E3-A253-38087E72DBF1@delong.com> <20130526220844.7BF0D34B09F4@drugs.dv.isc.org> <A03F0C48-E625-4BF5-9615-52BBE17646E8@delong.com>
In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 27 May 2013 10:14:00 -0700." <A03F0C48-E625-4BF5-9615-52BBE17646E8@delong.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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In message <A03F0C48-E625-4BF5-9615-52BBE17646E8@delong.com>, Owen DeLong write
s:
>
> On May 26, 2013, at 15:08 , Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
>
> >
> >> Ideally, it would be nice if the IETF focused on mechanisms that had a
> real world purpose. Solutions
> >> looking for a problem tend to create more problems than they solve. In
> many ways, ULA seems to fit
> >> that definition.
> >>
> >> Owen
> >
> > Owen, there is no perfect solution to numbering residential networks.
> >
> > * getting addresses from a RIR works worse than ULA as you can't get
> >  them routed and RIR address are not in a well defined range.
> >
>
> False... http://www.tunnelbroker.net Q.E.D.

And the number of untunneled residential customers HE have is what now?

> > * getting addresses from a ISP doesn't work as you need addresses
> >  before your initial connection.  Additionally they require
> >  full renumbering when switching providers or when the ISP decides
> >  to rejig their address plan.
>
> Arguable, but not completely unreasonable. Though I question what value
> these unroutable addresses provide that are not available from RIR
> addresses which you may be unable to route.
>
> Owen

Owen go and try and bring up a new IPv6 only home network with two
broadcast domains with no current external connectivity and see how
far you get.  Printer in one broadcast domain and a PC in the other.
Now try to print a test page from that PC.  This isn't (or won't
be) a uncommon senario.  This is what we are designing to support.

Mark
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

From sander@steffann.nl  Mon May 27 16:18:12 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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Hi Mark,

> go and try and bring up a new IPv6 only home network with two
> broadcast domains with no current external connectivity and see how
> far you get.  Printer in one broadcast domain and a PC in the other.
> Now try to print a test page from that PC.  This isn't (or won't
> be) a uncommon senario.  This is what we are designing to support.

+1
Sander


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References: <201305181245.r4ICj0i04824@ftpeng-update.cisco.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D722B0E@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr1UPt6WcAeDbuZzP6Cf5EThy7pGWuu8i6WsJXMNoaCAgQ@mail.gmail.com> <8AE0F17B87264D4CAC7DE0AA6C406F453D726A66@nkgeml506-mbx.china.huawei.com> <719D38CF-F3CD-4BB3-85DC-B7811AC81891@delong.com> <519BD73B.50200@gmail.com> <CAKD1Yr1a+khdqoVhq82OToq1o0E1HsQaU45-t5Ltf7sq0dQOFQ@mail.gmail.com> <51A02D23.6080101@dougbarton.us> <F7D66157-0006-4BB2-8BF0-A892C5A85E8E@delong.com> <51A1781A.3040903@gmail.com> <8E61CD47-B0CC-44E3-A253-38087E72DBF1@delong.com> <20130526220844.7BF0D34B09F4@drugs.dv.isc.org> <CAKD1Yr0rXCgO=GoKLFLEA5aBjLShQTvSMxZqOsfcBQi1_RtefA@mail.gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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In message <CAKD1Yr0rXCgO=GoKLFLEA5aBjLShQTvSMxZqOsfcBQi1_RtefA@mail.gmail.com>
, Lorenzo Colitti writes:
> On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 7:08 AM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
> 
> >
> > > Ideally, it would be nice if the IETF focused on mechanisms that had a
> > real world purpose. Solutions
> > >  looking for a problem tend to create more problems than they solve. In
> > many ways, ULA seems to fit
> > > that definition.
> >
> > Owen, there is no perfect solution to numbering residential networks.
> >
> > * getting addresses from a RIR works worse than ULA as you can't get
> >   them routed and RIR address are not in a well defined range.

> You can't get ULAs routed either.

I didn't say you could.

ULA however are better than a generic prefix from a RIR in that the
software knows (or will know) that they are not globally routable
and can make sensible default decisions when presented with a mixture
of ULA and GUA addresses.

The alternative to ULA + GUA is non-routed GUA + PA GUA and unless
the home network is pushing around address selection tables there is
nothing to tell the two addresses apart.  This will lead to the wrong
source address being choosen.

> > * getting addresses from a ISP doesn't work as you need addresses
> >   before your initial connection.  Additionally they require
> >   full renumbering when switching providers or when the ISP decides
> >   to rejig their address plan.
> >
> 
> Agreed, ULA gives you stable addresses for a disconnected network.
> 
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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I'm not sure, but I think the fundamental problem is the same as it has
always been: "if you ND proxy a downstream interface to an upstream
interface, you're gonna have a bad time" - because that can create loops.

However, I think that doing proxy ND between multiple downstream subnets
would work fine.

As Owen says, we should not document an inferior wheel. So we should not
finalize this document if we do not know the answer to this question. Does
anyone know the answer?


On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 2:35 AM, cb.list6 <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> On May 27, 2013 10:04 AM, "Owen DeLong" <owen@delong.com> wrote:
> >
> > >> Agreed. However, that doesn't mean we need to invent an inferior
> wheel.
> > >>
> > >> Owen
> > >>
> > >
> > > well, we ship what gets rough consensus, not what is "best" for some
> > > value of "best"
> > >
> >
> > Unless there is a reason to do so, I cannot imagine that rational
> individuals would come to consensus on an inferior choice.
> >
> > > Back in the archives, we scoped the scenario to be one routed
> > > down-link due to folks concerns about loops that would result from
> > > having multiple interfaces up with the same prefix.
> >
> > Ah, but as was described earlier, interface != link and if we simply
> move to the term link, the problem is resolved. The use of the term
> interface is what is problematic here. Multiple interfaces which are
> bridged together at layer 2 constitute a single link from an IPv6
> perspective.
> >
> > > i think the discussion was somewhere around here and how NDproxy was
> > > not acceptable
> > >
> > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg13954.html and
> > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg15020.html
> >
> > Which only applies in the case of multiple links with the same prefix,
> not multiple interfaces within the same link.
> >
> > Owen
> >
>
> Ok, so in the draft we change interface to link and the magic of how loops
> and so on are prevented is out of scope since it is in the domain of "link"?
>
> I am fine with that.
>
> Is that "one word" change that is  needed to close this particular topic?
>
> CB
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>

--0015175cf92a2a81ba04ddbd57ce
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">I&#39;m not sure, but I think the fundamental problem is t=
he same as it has always been: &quot;if you ND proxy a downstream interface=
 to an upstream interface, you&#39;re gonna have a bad time&quot; - because=
 that can create loops.<div>

<br></div><div style>However, I think that doing proxy ND between multiple =
downstream subnets would work fine.</div><div style><br></div><div style>As=
 Owen says, we should not document an inferior wheel. So we should not fina=
lize this document if we do not know the answer to this question. Does anyo=
ne know the answer?</div>

</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Tue,=
 May 28, 2013 at 2:35 AM, cb.list6 <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:=
cb.list6@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">cb.list6@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wro=
te:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><p d=
ir=3D"ltr"><br>
On May 27, 2013 10:04 AM, &quot;Owen DeLong&quot; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:owe=
n@delong.com" target=3D"_blank">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Agreed. However, that doesn&#39;t mean we need to invent an i=
nferior wheel.<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt; Owen<br>
&gt; &gt;&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; well, we ship what gets rough consensus, not what is &quot;best&q=
uot; for some<br>
&gt; &gt; value of &quot;best&quot;<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Unless there is a reason to do so, I cannot imagine that rational indi=
viduals would come to consensus on an inferior choice.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; Back in the archives, we scoped the scenario to be one routed<br>
&gt; &gt; down-link due to folks concerns about loops that would result fro=
m<br>
&gt; &gt; having multiple interfaces up with the same prefix.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Ah, but as was described earlier, interface !=3D link and if we simply=
 move to the term link, the problem is resolved. The use of the term interf=
ace is what is problematic here. Multiple interfaces which are bridged toge=
ther at layer 2 constitute a single link from an IPv6 perspective.<br>



&gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; i think the discussion was somewhere around here and how NDproxy =
was<br>
&gt; &gt; not acceptable<br>
&gt; &gt;<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg=
13954.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/cu=
rrent/msg13954.html</a> and<br>
&gt; &gt; <a href=3D"http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg=
15020.html" target=3D"_blank">http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/cu=
rrent/msg15020.html</a><br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Which only applies in the case of multiple links with the same prefix,=
 not multiple interfaces within the same link.<br>
&gt;<br>
&gt; Owen<br>
&gt;</p>
</div></div><p dir=3D"ltr">Ok, so in the draft we change interface to link =
and the magic of how loops and so on are prevented is out of scope since it=
 is in the domain of &quot;link&quot;?</p>
<p dir=3D"ltr"> I am fine with that. </p>
<p dir=3D"ltr">Is that &quot;one word&quot; change that is=A0 needed to clo=
se this particular topic?<span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888"><br=
></font></span></p><span class=3D"HOEnZb"><font color=3D"#888888">
<p dir=3D"ltr">CB</p>
</font></span><br>_______________________________________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--0015175cf92a2a81ba04ddbd57ce--

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On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure, but I think the fundamental problem is the same as it has
> always been: "if you ND proxy a downstream interface to an upstream
> interface, you're gonna have a bad time" - because that can create loops.
>
> However, I think that doing proxy ND between multiple downstream subnets
> would work fine.
>

Right, and previous discussion on this topic says their is no way to
prevent it from happening without some heavy-lifting to change ND or
otherwise accepting risks that have been deemed unacceptable

> As Owen says, we should not document an inferior wheel. So we should not
> finalize this document if we do not know the answer to this question. Does
> anyone know the answer?
>

The previous answer was to scope the wheel to be one link / interface.

I would like to not let perfect be the enemy of good, and...  also
call out that there are shipping implementations that are undocumented
because the need arose before the IETF was willing to discuss it.  It
reminds me of how the IETF denied the existence of NAT and therefore
there was a  cornucopia of implementation variations.

This draft introduces a handful of scenarios that have been reviewed
by the IETF, it is "only" informational, and my goal is to limit that
cornucopia to a safe set of simple vetted solutions

Alternatively, we can put our heads back in the sand and tell everyone
DHCP-PD is the only way forward and watch that be ignored  while
off-the-cuff implementations roll out (this is, in fact, the current
state with Apple (iPhone), ZTE (4G router), and Samsung (Android
phones) all shipping prefix sharing implementations.)

CB

>
> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 2:35 AM, cb.list6 <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> On May 27, 2013 10:04 AM, "Owen DeLong" <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > >> Agreed. However, that doesn't mean we need to invent an inferior
>> > >> wheel.
>> > >>
>> > >> Owen
>> > >>
>> > >
>> > > well, we ship what gets rough consensus, not what is "best" for some
>> > > value of "best"
>> > >
>> >
>> > Unless there is a reason to do so, I cannot imagine that rational
>> > individuals would come to consensus on an inferior choice.
>> >
>> > > Back in the archives, we scoped the scenario to be one routed
>> > > down-link due to folks concerns about loops that would result from
>> > > having multiple interfaces up with the same prefix.
>> >
>> > Ah, but as was described earlier, interface != link and if we simply
>> > move to the term link, the problem is resolved. The use of the term
>> > interface is what is problematic here. Multiple interfaces which are bridged
>> > together at layer 2 constitute a single link from an IPv6 perspective.
>> >
>> > > i think the discussion was somewhere around here and how NDproxy was
>> > > not acceptable
>> > >
>> > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg13954.html and
>> > > http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg15020.html
>> >
>> > Which only applies in the case of multiple links with the same prefix,
>> > not multiple interfaces within the same link.
>> >
>> > Owen
>> >
>>
>> Ok, so in the draft we change interface to link and the magic of how loops
>> and so on are prevented is out of scope since it is in the domain of "link"?
>>
>> I am fine with that.
>>
>> Is that "one word" change that is  needed to close this particular topic?
>>
>> CB
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>
>

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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 11:16:44 +0900
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 3:54 AM, <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:

>         Title           : Extending an IPv6 /64 Prefix from a 3GPP Mobile
> Interface to a LAN
>         Author(s)       : Cameron Byrne
>                           Dan Drown
>                           Ales Vizdal
>         Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
>

Substantive comments:

1. The introduction needlessly limits the scope of this document to 3GPP
devices. This scheme works anywhere the uplink is a point-to-point
interface. 3GPP devices happen to fall into that category, and the fact
that 3GPP currently only a /64 is a use case for this document, but it's
not the only one. So I think this scheme should be documented in the more
general case and the 3GPP use case should be documented as a use case.

2. I think scenario #1 should be removed. An IPv6 router without a global
scope IPv6 address? First of all, why? There are plenty of addresses in the
/64. Second, how is the router going to fulfill the router requirements
that require it, for example, to send ICMP error messages? We can't say
that it's OK for a router not to be able to support PMTUd, send
unreachables, support traceroute, etc.  for transit traffic. Third, this
mode doesn't even simplify implementation, because the sharing device has
to do autoconf on the uplink anyway to get the prefix to share. Fourth,
disabling autoconf once sharing is enabled means that this method will not
work on any network where the upstream prefix can change. Why was this mode
included?

3. Scenarios #2 and #3 are underspecified. For example, what does the RA on
the LAN look like? Is it a copy of the RA from the WAN? Presumably not,
since we'd want to include the link-layer address of the router in it. Does
the sharing device decrement the TTL? And so on. Instead of putting these
as details in the scenarios, they should probably be put in a more general
requirements section whose job it is to explain what the sharing device
must do in order for the IPv6 protocol to work correctly when sharing a
/64. The scenarios would then become examples of ways you can do this.

4. Some of the language is inappropriately vague. For example, what does
"defends its LAN IPv6 address with DAD" mean?

5. It's not OK to say that privacy extensions should be disabled. I think
the document should say that if the sharing device has privacy addresses,
it should maintain them, and if it does maintain them, it must support DAD
for those addresses on its downstream interface(s).

6. The document should say that said neighbor advertisements are proxy
neighbour advertisements per RFC 4861 section 7.2.8. Note that this is
different from ND proxy (RFC 4389), which is experimental.

Cheers,
Lorenzo

--001a11c357c479784d04ddbddc47
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 3:54 AM,  <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a=
 href=3D"mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">internet-drafts=
@ietf.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D=
"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex">=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : Extending an I=
Pv6 /64 Prefix from a 3GPP Mobile Interface to a LAN<br>


=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Author(s) =A0 =A0 =A0 : Cameron Byrne<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Dan Drown<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Ales Vizdal<br>
=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Filename =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt<b=
r></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Substantive comments:</div><div st=
yle><br></div><div style>1. The introduction needlessly limits the scope of=
 this document to 3GPP devices. This scheme works anywhere the uplink is a =
point-to-point interface. 3GPP devices happen to fall into that category, a=
nd the fact that 3GPP currently only a /64 is a use case for this document,=
 but it&#39;s not the only one. So I think this scheme should be documented=
 in the more general case and the 3GPP use case should be documented as a u=
se case.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>2. I think scenario #1 should be removed. A=
n IPv6 router without a global scope IPv6 address? First of all, why? There=
 are plenty of addresses in the /64. Second, how is the router going to ful=
fill the router requirements that require it, for example, to send ICMP err=
or messages? We can&#39;t say that it&#39;s OK for a router not to be able =
to support PMTUd, send unreachables, support traceroute, etc. =A0for transi=
t traffic. Third, this mode doesn&#39;t even simplify implementation, becau=
se the sharing device has to do autoconf on the uplink anyway to get the pr=
efix to share. Fourth, disabling autoconf once sharing is enabled means tha=
t this method will not work on any network where the upstream prefix can ch=
ange. Why was this mode included?</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>3. Scenarios #2 and #3 are underspecified. =
For example, what does the RA on the LAN look like? Is it a copy of the RA =
from the WAN? Presumably not, since we&#39;d want to include the link-layer=
 address of the router in it. Does the sharing device decrement the TTL? An=
d so on. Instead of putting these as details in the scenarios, they should =
probably be put in a more general requirements section whose job it is to e=
xplain what the sharing device must do in order for the IPv6 protocol to wo=
rk correctly when sharing a /64. The scenarios would then become examples o=
f ways you can do this.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>4. Some of the language is inappropriately =
vague. For example, what does &quot;defends its LAN IPv6 address with DAD&q=
uot; mean?</div><div style><br></div><div style>5. It&#39;s not OK to say t=
hat privacy extensions should be disabled. I think the document should say =
that if the sharing device has privacy addresses, it should maintain them, =
and if it does maintain them, it must support DAD for those addresses on it=
s downstream interface(s).</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>6. The document should say that said neighb=
or advertisements are proxy neighbour advertisements per RFC 4861 section 7=
.2.8. Note that this is different from ND proxy (RFC 4389), which is experi=
mental.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>Cheers,</div><div style>Lorenzo</div></div>=
</div></div>

--001a11c357c479784d04ddbddc47--

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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 11:22:37 +0900
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Cc: IPv6 Ops WG <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 10:57 AM, cb.list6 <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:

> > However, I think that doing proxy ND between multiple downstream subnets
> > would work fine.
>
> Right, and previous discussion on this topic says their is no way to
> prevent it from happening without some heavy-lifting to change ND or
> otherwise accepting risks that have been deemed unacceptable
>

Actually, I don't believe the question of how this would work with multiple
downstream interfaces has been explored before in this group.



> > As Owen says, we should not document an inferior wheel. So we should not
> > finalize this document if we do not know the answer to this question.
> Does
> > anyone know the answer?
> >
>
> The previous answer was to scope the wheel to be one link / interface.
>

Is there a solid technical reason for doing so? Have we even discussed if
this is possible or not, and whether it would work?


> I would like to not let perfect be the enemy of good, and...  also
> call out that there are shipping implementations that are undocumented
> because the need arose before the IETF was willing to discuss it.  It
> reminds me of how the IETF denied the existence of NAT and therefore
> there was a  cornucopia of implementation variations.
>
> This draft introduces a handful of scenarios that have been reviewed
> by the IETF, it is "only" informational, and my goal is to limit that
> cornucopia to a safe set of simple vetted solutions
>
> Alternatively, we can put our heads back in the sand and tell everyone
> DHCP-PD is the only way forward and watch that be ignored  while
> off-the-cuff implementations roll out (this is, in fact, the current
> state with Apple (iPhone), ZTE (4G router), and Samsung (Android
> phones) all shipping prefix sharing implementations.)
>

I'm not saying that we should not publish this document. I am saying that
we should do the due diligence to inform implementers of how to do this
properly, so that we don't end up with broken (e.g., no global address on
the sharing device? How are you going to connect to it, via link-local?) or
suboptimal (e.g., only one interface) implementations.

This is the IETF. We should not simply describe the implementations that
are out there, we should do the due diligence of thinking through how
things should work, and publish a document accordingly. This is useful even
if the the current implementers know all these things, and the current
implementations do everything right, because it ensures that future
implementations behave in a sane way as well.

--0015175cf92a8a27db04ddbdf111
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 10:57 AM, cb.list6 <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:cb.list6@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">cb.list6@gma=
il.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gm=
ail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">&gt; However, I think that=
 doing proxy ND between multiple downstream subnets<br>
&gt; would work fine.<br><br>
</div>Right, and previous discussion on this topic says their is no way to<=
br>
prevent it from happening without some heavy-lifting to change ND or<br>
otherwise accepting risks that have been deemed unacceptable<br></blockquot=
e><div><br></div><div style>Actually, I don&#39;t believe the question of h=
ow this would work with multiple downstream interfaces has been explored be=
fore in this group.</div>

<div><br></div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar=
gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"im">&gt; As Owen says, we should not document an inferior whe=
el. So we should not<br>
&gt; finalize this document if we do not know the answer to this question. =
Does<br>
&gt; anyone know the answer?<br>
&gt;<br>
<br>
</div>The previous answer was to scope the wheel to be one link / interface=
.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Is there a solid technical reas=
on for doing so? Have we even discussed if this is possible or not, and whe=
ther it would work?</div>

<div style>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0=
 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">I would like to not let =
perfect be the enemy of good, and... =A0also<br>
call out that there are shipping implementations that are undocumented<br>
because the need arose before the IETF was willing to discuss it. =A0It<br>
reminds me of how the IETF denied the existence of NAT and therefore<br>
there was a =A0cornucopia of implementation variations.<br>
<br>
This draft introduces a handful of scenarios that have been reviewed<br>
by the IETF, it is &quot;only&quot; informational, and my goal is to limit =
that<br>
cornucopia to a safe set of simple vetted solutions<br>
<br>
Alternatively, we can put our heads back in the sand and tell everyone<br>
DHCP-PD is the only way forward and watch that be ignored =A0while<br>
off-the-cuff implementations roll out (this is, in fact, the current<br>
state with Apple (iPhone), ZTE (4G router), and Samsung (Android<br>
phones) all shipping prefix sharing implementations.)<br></blockquote><div>=
<br></div><div style>I&#39;m not saying that we should not publish this doc=
ument. I am saying that we should do the due diligence to inform implemente=
rs of how to do this properly, so that we don&#39;t end up with broken (e.g=
., no global address on the sharing device? How are you going to connect to=
 it, via link-local?) or suboptimal (e.g., only one interface) implementati=
ons.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>This is the IETF. We should not simply desc=
ribe the implementations that are out there, we should do the due diligence=
 of thinking through how things should work, and publish a document accordi=
ngly. This is useful even if the the current implementers know all these th=
ings, and the current implementations do everything right, because it ensur=
es that future implementations behave in a sane way as well.</div>

</div></div></div>

--0015175cf92a8a27db04ddbdf111--

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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>, "cb.list6" <cb.list6@gmail.com>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-64share@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-64share@tools.ietf.org>
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Hi,=0A=0A>________________________________=0A> From: Lorenzo Colitti <loren=
zo@google.com>=0A>To: cb.list6 <cb.list6@gmail.com>; "draft-ietf-v6ops-64sh=
are@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-64share@tools.ietf.org> =0A>Cc: "v6op=
s@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org> =0A>Sent: Tuesday, 28 May 2013 12:16 PM=0A>=
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt=0A> =0A>=
=0A>=0A>On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 3:54 AM, <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:=
=0A>=0A>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Title =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 : Extending an IPv6 /64 P=
refix from a 3GPP Mobile Interface to a LAN=0A>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Author(s) =
=A0 =A0 =A0 : Cameron Byrne=0A>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0=
 =A0 =A0 Dan Drown=0A>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =
Ales Vizdal=0A>>=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 Filename =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0: draft-ietf-v6ops-=
64share-07.txt=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A>Substantive comments:=0A>=0A>=0A>1. The intr=
oduction needlessly limits the scope of this document to 3GPP devices. This=
 scheme works anywhere the uplink is a point-to-point interface. 3GPP devic=
es happen to fall into that category, and the fact that 3GPP currently only=
 a /64 is a use case for this document, but it's not the only one. So I thi=
nk this scheme should be documented in the more general case and the 3GPP u=
se case should be documented as a use case.=0A>=0A=0AI was sort of hoping n=
obody would open that can of worms, as the same thing occurred to me previo=
usly. I fear that doing this would provide an excuse to some ISPs not to gi=
ve out more than a single /64 if these methods are more generally adopted, =
contrary to the advice in RFC3177/6177. I think clearly presenting it as a =
work around to the limitations of the 3GPP architecture revision mentioned =
would be better.=0A=0A<snip>=0A=0ARegards,=0AMark.

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>> In any event, the work of this draft is to  use the open ietf process =
to get folks on the same page so the wheel does not get reinvented =
several times in a vacume.
>>=20
>=20
> Agreed. However, that doesn't mean we need to invent an inferior =
wheel.

haven't we invented the wheel, aka multilink subnet routing (also see =
RFC4903) and the inferior wheel,
RFC4389 already?

what does this document add?

cheers,
Ole



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> -----Original Message-----
> From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Ole
> Troan
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:00 AM
> To: Owen DeLong
> Cc: IPv6 Ops WG
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
>=20
> >> In any event, the work of this draft is to  use the open ietf process =
to get folks on
> the same page so the wheel does not get reinvented several times in a vac=
ume.
> >>
> >
> > Agreed. However, that doesn't mean we need to invent an inferior wheel.
>=20
> haven't we invented the wheel, aka multilink subnet routing (also see RFC=
4903) and
> the inferior wheel,
> RFC4389 already?
>=20
> what does this document add?

It describes how to overcome the limitations of the 3GPP architecture until=
 the DHCP-PD will be available.
So it adds (provides) a solution to this 3GPP specific issue.

> cheers,
> Ole

Cheers,
Ales

From otroan@employees.org  Tue May 28 02:47:21 2013
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Vizdal,

>>=20
>> haven't we invented the wheel, aka multilink subnet routing (also see =
RFC4903) and
>> the inferior wheel,
>> RFC4389 already?
>>=20
>> what does this document add?
>=20
> It describes how to overcome the limitations of the 3GPP architecture =
until the DHCP-PD will be available.
> So it adds (provides) a solution to this 3GPP specific issue.

how is that different from the RA proxy?

cheers,
Ole


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--20cf300fb23db763db04ddc540dd
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On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:

> > So it adds (provides) a solution to this 3GPP specific issue.
>
> how is that different from the RA proxy?


Define "RA proxy"?

--20cf300fb23db763db04ddc540dd
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<div dir="ltr">On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Ole Troan <span dir="ltr">&lt;<a href="mailto:otroan@employees.org" target="_blank">otroan@employees.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote">

<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class="im">&gt; So it adds (provides) a solution to this 3GPP specific issue.<br>
<br>
</div>how is that different from the RA proxy?</blockquote><div style><br>Define &quot;RA proxy&quot;?</div></div></div></div>

--20cf300fb23db763db04ddc540dd--

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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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Lorenzo,

> > So it adds (provides) a solution to this 3GPP specific issue.
> 
> how is that different from the RA proxy?
> 
> Define "RA proxy"?

http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4389#appendix-A

cheers,
Ole


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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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--047d7b5da795149b0604ddc81cc3
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On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:

> > It describes how to overcome the limitations of the 3GPP architecture
> until the DHCP-PD will be available.
> > So it adds (provides) a solution to this 3GPP specific issue.
>
> how is that different from the RA proxy?
>

Not much, but it's more detailed. For example, it document notes that care
must be taken to avoid breaking DAD. It's also its own informational
document rather than an appendix in a different experimental RFC.

--047d7b5da795149b0604ddc81cc3
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Ole Troan <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:otroan@employees.org" target=3D"_blank">otroan@emp=
loyees.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">&gt; It describes how to overcome the li=
mitations of the 3GPP architecture until the DHCP-PD will be available.<br>


&gt; So it adds (provides) a solution to this 3GPP specific issue.<br>
<br>
</div>how is that different from the RA proxy?<br></blockquote><div><br></d=
iv><div style>Not much, but it&#39;s more detailed. For example, it documen=
t notes that care must be taken to avoid breaking DAD. It&#39;s also its ow=
n informational document rather than an appendix in a different experimenta=
l RFC.</div>

</div></div></div>

--047d7b5da795149b0604ddc81cc3--

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Le 28/05/2013 16:30, Lorenzo Colitti a écrit :
> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org
> <mailto:otroan@employees.org>> wrote:
>
>      > It describes how to overcome the limitations of the 3GPP
>     architecture until the DHCP-PD will be available.
>      > So it adds (provides) a solution to this 3GPP specific issue.
>
>     how is that different from the RA proxy?
>
>
> Not much, but it's more detailed. For example, it document notes that
> care must be taken to avoid breaking DAD. It's also its own
> informational document rather than an appendix in a different
> experimental RFC.

I would like this to be no proxy at all.  Actually our implementation 
(which is actually simply configuration) does not do any form of proxying.

Alex

>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>



From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Tue May 28 08:11:37 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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Lorenzo,

I have some viewpoints about this, which I hope reasonable.

Le 28/05/2013 04:16, Lorenzo Colitti a écrit :
> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 3:54 AM, <internet-drafts@ietf.org
> <mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org>> wrote:
>
> Title           : Extending an IPv6 /64 Prefix from a 3GPP Mobile
> Interface to a LAN Author(s)       : Cameron Byrne Dan Drown Ales
> Vizdal Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
>
>
> Substantive comments:
>
> 1. The introduction needlessly limits the scope of this document to
> 3GPP devices. This scheme works anywhere the uplink is a
> point-to-point interface. 3GPP devices happen to fall into that
> category, and the fact that 3GPP currently only a /64 is a use case
> for this document, but it's not the only one. So I think this scheme
> should be documented in the more general case and the 3GPP use case
> should be documented as a use case.
>
> 2. I think scenario #1 should be removed.

No, it works.

> An IPv6 router without a global scope IPv6 address?

YEs.  There are many cases where an IPv6 router could do only with its
link-local address.

> First of all, why?

Because, in this particular case, if it removes its globally-scoped IPv6
address then somebody else in the LAN could use it.  This avoids all the
proxy and DAD worries.

> There are plenty of addresses in the /64.

YEs, there are.  But SLAAC on Ethernet requires all be in one subnet,
and not route between one and the other of same /64.

> Second, how is the router going to fulfill the router requirements
> that require it,

I am not sure how strong these requirements are and whether they can be
modified.  Besides, this link-local address only (not global address)
router behaviour could be INFORMATIONAL, for this particular case,
rather than seeing the behaviour largely deployed but not documented at all.

> for example, to send ICMP error messages?

Well, the many of the events which would provoke these ICMP error
messages needing global-scoped instead of link-scoped addresses are
actually never happening because the Gateway in the fixed infrastructure
takes care to generate them.

> We can't say that it's OK for a router not to be able to support
> PMTUd, send unreachables, support traceroute, etc.  for transit
> traffic.

Well we could, if somebody else takes care to support these anyways (as
is the case today).

E.g., the cellular network does not allow any traceroute nor PMTUd down
to the User Equipment, regardless of it being a Host or a Router.

> Third, this mode doesn't even simplify implementation, because the
> sharing device has to do autoconf on the uplink anyway to get the
> prefix to share.

It does simplify implementation because it avoids proxy behaviour on the
Mobile Router.

> Fourth, disabling autoconf once sharing is enabled means that this
> method will not work on any network where the upstream prefix can
> change.

Well, look at it another way.  A Router does not use autoconf anyways.
So it is actually a bad behaviour to allow the Host to become a Router
and subsequently autoconf an address from the RA it receives.  In theory.

> Why was this mode included?

BEcause it helps avoid the duplicate address of a node in the LAN.

The bad situation could be the following: Router auto-configures an
address from the RA received on the cellular, and then a Host in its LAN
auto-configures the same address from the RA this Router advertises on
this LAN (it's same prefix).  Two equal globally-scoped addresses on two
different interfaces of different machines is not good.

> 3. Scenarios #2 and #3 are underspecified. For example, what does
> the RA on the LAN look like? Is it a copy of the RA from the WAN?
> Presumably not, since we'd want to include the link-layer address of
> the router in it. Does the sharing device decrement the TTL? And so
> on.

I agree, this could be better described.

> Instead of putting these as details in the scenarios, they should
> probably be put in a more general requirements section whose job it
> is to explain what the sharing device must do in order for the IPv6
> protocol to work correctly when sharing a /64. The scenarios would
> then become examples of ways you can do this.
>
> 4. Some of the language is inappropriately vague. For example, what
> does "defends its LAN IPv6 address with DAD" mean?

I agree, it could say: send 3 NAs upon startup for this address and
reply to NSs about that address, on the LAN.  Or similar.

> 5. It's not OK to say that privacy extensions should be disabled. I
> think the document should say that if the sharing device has privacy
> addresses, it should maintain them, and if it does maintain them, it
> must support DAD for those addresses on its downstream interface(s).
>
> 6. The document should say that said neighbor advertisements are
> proxy neighbour advertisements per RFC 4861 section 7.2.8. Note that
> this is different from ND proxy (RFC 4389), which is experimental.

I am not sure whether implementations already do proxy ND, ours doesnt.
  I am not sure there is a need to do it either.

Alex

>
> Cheers, Lorenzo
>
>
> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>



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To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Tue, 28 May 2013 17:14:06 +0200
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of=
 Ole
> Troan
> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 1:22 PM
> To: Lorenzo Colitti
> Cc: IPv6 Ops WG
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
>=20
> Lorenzo,
>=20
> > > So it adds (provides) a solution to this 3GPP specific issue.
> >
> > how is that different from the RA proxy?
> >
> > Define "RA proxy"?
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4389#appendix-A

It addresses the open points discussed in the above mentioned appendix, so =
the IPv6 prefix can be 'safely' shared.
It leaves any proxying out as it is fully L3 routing based. Have a read if =
you want.
=20
> cheers,
> Ole

Cheers,
Ales

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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A brief intro-//RE: new draft: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations
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On May 27, 2013, at 4:59 PM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote:
>> You can't get ULAs routed either.
>=20
> I didn't say you could.
>=20
> ULA however are better than a generic prefix from a RIR in that the
> software knows (or will know) that they are not globally routable
> and can make sensible default decisions when presented with a mixture
> of ULA and GUA addresses.

Maybe, maybe not.

Dual GUA with RIOs to aid local traffic SAS could be just as effective =
as
GUA+ULA.

>=20
> The alternative to ULA + GUA is non-routed GUA + PA GUA and unless
> the home network is pushing around address selection tables there is
> nothing to tell the two addresses apart.  This will lead to the wrong
> source address being chosen.

Agreed. Where we disagree is in that you seem to expect that SAS will =
actually
end up working correctly on at least a semi-consistent basis in the =
ULA+GUA
scenario. Of that, I remain very skeptical.

Owen


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On May 27, 2013, at 6:57 PM, cb.list6 <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, May 27, 2013 at 6:39 PM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> =
wrote:
>> I'm not sure, but I think the fundamental problem is the same as it =
has
>> always been: "if you ND proxy a downstream interface to an upstream
>> interface, you're gonna have a bad time" - because that can create =
loops.
>>=20
>> However, I think that doing proxy ND between multiple downstream =
subnets
>> would work fine.
>>=20
>=20
> Right, and previous discussion on this topic says their is no way to
> prevent it from happening without some heavy-lifting to change ND or
> otherwise accepting risks that have been deemed unacceptable
>=20
>> As Owen says, we should not document an inferior wheel. So we should =
not
>> finalize this document if we do not know the answer to this question. =
Does
>> anyone know the answer?
>>=20
>=20
> The previous answer was to scope the wheel to be one link / interface.
>=20
> I would like to not let perfect be the enemy of good, and...  also
> call out that there are shipping implementations that are undocumented
> because the need arose before the IETF was willing to discuss it.  It
> reminds me of how the IETF denied the existence of NAT and therefore
> there was a  cornucopia of implementation variations.
>=20

The IETF did not deny the existence of NAT=85 They decried it as a bad =
idea.

History has shown that they were correct in this claim.

> This draft introduces a handful of scenarios that have been reviewed
> by the IETF, it is "only" informational, and my goal is to limit that
> cornucopia to a safe set of simple vetted solutions
>=20
> Alternatively, we can put our heads back in the sand and tell everyone
> DHCP-PD is the only way forward and watch that be ignored  while
> off-the-cuff implementations roll out (this is, in fact, the current
> state with Apple (iPhone), ZTE (4G router), and Samsung (Android
> phones) all shipping prefix sharing implementations.)

I don't think it's as bad or as dramatic as you make it out to be.

There's a working implementation that meets a need. All Lorenzo is =
suggesting
is that we take the time to understand that working implementation and =
document
it.

Does not seem unreasonable to me.

Owen

>=20
> CB
>=20
>>=20
>> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 2:35 AM, cb.list6 <cb.list6@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> On May 27, 2013 10:04 AM, "Owen DeLong" <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>>>> Agreed. However, that doesn't mean we need to invent an inferior
>>>>>> wheel.
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>> Owen
>>>>>>=20
>>>>>=20
>>>>> well, we ship what gets rough consensus, not what is "best" for =
some
>>>>> value of "best"
>>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> Unless there is a reason to do so, I cannot imagine that rational
>>>> individuals would come to consensus on an inferior choice.
>>>>=20
>>>>> Back in the archives, we scoped the scenario to be one routed
>>>>> down-link due to folks concerns about loops that would result from
>>>>> having multiple interfaces up with the same prefix.
>>>>=20
>>>> Ah, but as was described earlier, interface !=3D link and if we =
simply
>>>> move to the term link, the problem is resolved. The use of the term
>>>> interface is what is problematic here. Multiple interfaces which =
are bridged
>>>> together at layer 2 constitute a single link from an IPv6 =
perspective.
>>>>=20
>>>>> i think the discussion was somewhere around here and how NDproxy =
was
>>>>> not acceptable
>>>>>=20
>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg13954.html =
and
>>>>> http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg15020.html
>>>>=20
>>>> Which only applies in the case of multiple links with the same =
prefix,
>>>> not multiple interfaces within the same link.
>>>>=20
>>>> Owen
>>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> Ok, so in the draft we change interface to link and the magic of how =
loops
>>> and so on are prevented is out of scope since it is in the domain of =
"link"?
>>>=20
>>> I am fine with that.
>>>=20
>>> Is that "one word" change that is  needed to close this particular =
topic?
>>>=20
>>> CB
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>=20
>>=20


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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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Cc: "draft-ietf-v6ops-64share@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-64share@tools.ietf.org>, "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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On May 27, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au> =
wrote:

> Hi,
>=20
>> ________________________________
>> From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
>> To: cb.list6 <cb.list6@gmail.com>; =
"draft-ietf-v6ops-64share@tools.ietf.org" =
<draft-ietf-v6ops-64share@tools.ietf.org>=20
>> Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>=20
>> Sent: Tuesday, 28 May 2013 12:16 PM
>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Sat, May 18, 2013 at 3:54 AM, <internet-drafts@ietf.org> wrote:
>>=20
>>         Title           : Extending an IPv6 /64 Prefix from a 3GPP =
Mobile Interface to a LAN
>>>         Author(s)       : Cameron Byrne
>>>                           Dan Drown
>>>                           Ales Vizdal
>>>         Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Substantive comments:
>>=20
>>=20
>> 1. The introduction needlessly limits the scope of this document to =
3GPP devices. This scheme works anywhere the uplink is a point-to-point =
interface. 3GPP devices happen to fall into that category, and the fact =
that 3GPP currently only a /64 is a use case for this document, but it's =
not the only one. So I think this scheme should be documented in the =
more general case and the 3GPP use case should be documented as a use =
case.
>>=20
>=20
> I was sort of hoping nobody would open that can of worms, as the same =
thing occurred to me previously. I fear that doing this would provide an =
excuse to some ISPs not to give out more than a single /64 if these =
methods are more generally adopted, contrary to the advice in =
RFC3177/6177. I think clearly presenting it as a work around to the =
limitations of the 3GPP architecture revision mentioned would be better.
>=20

+1

Owen


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From: "Fred Baker (fred)" <fred@cisco.com>
To: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Thread-Topic: When to adopt a WG I-D
Thread-Index: Ac5bhk7NZ1bJ2lzKSk+IVhI2yJUoXQ==
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There is a thread in progress on the IETF list that you may be interested t=
o comment in.

Begin forwarded message:

> From: Adrian Farrel <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
> Subject: When to adopt a WG I-D
> Date: May 28, 2013 2:32:50 AM MST
> To: <ietf@ietf.org>
> Reply-To: <adrian@olddog.co.uk>
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> Dave Crocker and I have this little draft [1] discussing the process and =
considerations for creating formal working group drafts that are targeted f=
or publication.
>=20
> We believe that this may help clarify some of the issues and concerns ass=
ociated with this part of the process. We are targeting this as Information=
al (i.e. commentary on existing process, not new normative definition of pr=
ocess) and would like your input.
>=20
> What is not clear?
> What have we got wrong?
> How should we resolve the remaining editor notes?
>=20
> Thanks,
> Adrian
> (per pro Dave)
>=20
> [1] http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-crocker-id-adoption-02.txt
>=20
>=20
As I wrote this email, my random signature generator added the following. I=
 started to delete it. I then decided not to...

	=95 Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler.
	  Albert Einstein


From lorenzo@google.com  Tue May 28 21:34:21 2013
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 13:33:54 +0900
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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--089e01536db4e5aa0404ddd3e4aa
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 12:11 AM, Alexandru Petrescu <
alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

> 2. I think scenario #1 should be removed.
>>
>
> No, it works.


Sorry, but no, it doesn't "work". It doesn't support PMTUd and or ICMP
errors, which are non-optional parts of the IPv6 specifications.


>  First of all, why?
>>
>
> Because, in this particular case, if it removes its globally-scoped IPv6
> address then somebody else in the LAN could use it.  This avoids all the
> proxy and DAD worries.


"Because we're lazy and don't want to take the time to understand and
document how things should work"?

We can't say that it's OK for a router not to be able to support
>
>> PMTUd, send unreachables, support traceroute, etc.  for transit
>> traffic.
>>
>
> Well we could, if somebody else takes care to support these anyways (as
> is the case today).
>

No - at the very minimum, you have to at least handle the case where the
sharing device's uplink MTU (e.g., 3G) is lower than the MTU on the shared
link (e.g., wifi). This cannot be supported by the network, it must be
supported by the sharing device.


> E.g., the cellular network does not allow any traceroute nor PMTUd down
> to the User Equipment, regardless of it being a Host or a Router.


If PMTUd is not allowed, then IPv6 doesn't work. It's not an optional part
of the spec.

Fourth, disabling autoconf once sharing is enabled means that this
>
>> method will not work on any network where the upstream prefix can
>> change.
>>
>
> Well, look at it another way.  A Router does not use autoconf anyways.
> So it is actually a bad behaviour to allow the Host to become a Router
> and subsequently autoconf an address from the RA it receives.  In theory.


RFC 6204 specifies that IPv6 CE routers use autoconf.


> The bad situation could be the following: Router auto-configures an
> address from the RA received on the cellular, and then a Host in its LAN
> auto-configures the same address from the RA this Router advertises on
> this LAN (it's same prefix).  Two equal globally-scoped addresses on two
> different interfaces of different machines is not good.


That's why this draft should say that the sharing device must do DAD.


> I am not sure whether implementations already do proxy ND, ours doesnt.
>  I am not sure there is a need to do it either.
>

It doesn't need to if you don't care if it works well or not :)

--089e01536db4e5aa0404ddd3e4aa
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 12:11 AM, Alexandru Petrescu <span=
 dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"=
_blank">alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D=
"gmail_extra">

<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><blockquote class=
=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padd=
ing-left:1ex">

<div class=3D"im">2. I think scenario #1 should be removed.<br>
</div></blockquote>
<br>
No, it works.</blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Sorry, but no, it doesn=
&#39;t &quot;work&quot;. It doesn&#39;t support PMTUd and or ICMP errors, w=
hich are non-optional parts of the IPv6 specifications.</div><div style>

<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;bord=
er-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
First of all, why?<br>
</blockquote>
<br>
Because, in this particular case, if it removes its globally-scoped IPv6<br=
>
address then somebody else in the LAN could use it. =A0This avoids all the<=
br>
proxy and DAD worries.</blockquote><div><br></div><div style>&quot;Because =
we&#39;re lazy and don&#39;t want to take the time to understand and docume=
nt how things should work&quot;?</div><div style><br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">

<div class=3D"im">We can&#39;t say that it&#39;s OK for a router not to be =
able to support<br></div><div class=3D"im"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
PMTUd, send unreachables, support traceroute, etc. =A0for transit<br>
traffic.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Well we could, if somebody else takes care to support these anyways (as<br>
is the case today).<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>No - at the v=
ery minimum, you have to at least handle the case where the sharing device&=
#39;s uplink MTU (e.g., 3G) is lower than the MTU on the shared link (e.g.,=
 wifi). This cannot be supported by the network, it must be supported by th=
e sharing device.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">E.g., the cellular network doe=
s not allow any traceroute nor PMTUd down<br>
to the User Equipment, regardless of it being a Host or a Router.</blockquo=
te><div><br></div><div style>If PMTUd is not allowed, then IPv6 doesn&#39;t=
 work. It&#39;s not an optional part of the spec.</div><div style><br>

</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-l=
eft:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">Fourth, disabling au=
toconf once sharing is enabled means that this<br></div><div class=3D"im"><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


method will not work on any network where the upstream prefix can<br>
change.<br>
</blockquote>
<br></div>
Well, look at it another way. =A0A Router does not use autoconf anyways.<br=
>
So it is actually a bad behaviour to allow the Host to become a Router<br>
and subsequently autoconf an address from the RA it receives. =A0In theory.=
</blockquote><div><br></div><div style>RFC 6204 specifies that IPv6 CE rout=
ers use autoconf.</div><div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" styl=
e=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">

<div class=3D"im"><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">The bad situation cou=
ld be the following: Router auto-configures an</span><br></div>
address from the RA received on the cellular, and then a Host in its LAN<br=
>
auto-configures the same address from the RA this Router advertises on<br>
this LAN (it&#39;s same prefix). =A0Two equal globally-scoped addresses on =
two<br>
different interfaces of different machines is not good.</blockquote><div><b=
r></div><div style>That&#39;s why this draft should say that the sharing de=
vice must do DAD.</div><div style>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote=
" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">


I am not sure whether implementations already do proxy ND, ours doesnt.<br>
=A0I am not sure there is a need to do it either.<br></blockquote><div><br>=
</div><div style>It doesn&#39;t need to if you don&#39;t care if it works w=
ell or not :)</div></div></div></div>

--089e01536db4e5aa0404ddd3e4aa--

From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Tue May 28 22:55:06 2013
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Le 29/05/2013 06:33, Lorenzo Colitti a écrit :
> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 12:11 AM, Alexandru Petrescu
> <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>         2. I think scenario #1 should be removed.
>
>
>     No, it works.
>
>
> Sorry, but no, it doesn't "work". It doesn't support PMTUd and or ICMP
> errors, which are non-optional parts of the IPv6 specifications.
>
>
>         First of all, why?
>
>
>     Because, in this particular case, if it removes its globally-scoped IPv6
>     address then somebody else in the LAN could use it.  This avoids all the
>     proxy and DAD worries.
>
>
> "Because we're lazy and don't want to take the time to understand and
> document how things should work"?
>
>     We can't say that it's OK for a router not to be able to support
>
>         PMTUd, send unreachables, support traceroute, etc.  for transit
>         traffic.
>
>
>     Well we could, if somebody else takes care to support these anyways (as
>     is the case today).
>
>
> No - at the very minimum, you have to at least handle the case where the
> sharing device's uplink MTU (e.g., 3G) is lower than the MTU on the
> shared link (e.g., wifi). This cannot be supported by the network, it
> must be supported by the sharing device.

Yes, MTU is an issue that should be considered and maybe the IPv6 UE 
being a Router would not do the automatic fragmentation, but the node in 
the LAN would.

>
>     E.g., the cellular network does not allow any traceroute nor PMTUd down
>     to the User Equipment, regardless of it being a Host or a Router.
>
>
> If PMTUd is not allowed, then IPv6 doesn't work. It's not an optional
> part of the spec.

But by this logic no existing IPv6 cellular host (leaving aside the 
64share) would work on IPv6 because none does PMTUd.  I mean I havent 
seen these messages.

I note we talk two different things: MTU and PMTUd.

One could deal with MTU discepancies by setting right MTU manually on 
interfaces on UE and Host on LAN.  More automatically by running PMTUd.

The first is easier to deal with both in impl and in spec, but the 
second assumes not only the Host or the UE does it but also the 
Correspondent Node.  I am not sure many such end nodes are able to do it.

>
>     Fourth, disabling autoconf once sharing is enabled means that this
>
>         method will not work on any network where the upstream prefix can
>         change.
>
>
>     Well, look at it another way.  A Router does not use autoconf anyways.
>     So it is actually a bad behaviour to allow the Host to become a Router
>     and subsequently autoconf an address from the RA it receives.  In
>     theory.
>
>
> RFC 6204 specifies that IPv6 CE routers use autoconf.

And that is not a cellular router.

>
>     The bad situation could be the following: Router auto-configures an
>     address from the RA received on the cellular, and then a Host in its LAN
>     auto-configures the same address from the RA this Router advertises on
>     this LAN (it's same prefix).  Two equal globally-scoped addresses on two
>     different interfaces of different machines is not good.
>
>
> That's why this draft should say that the sharing device must do DAD.

YEs, that is right.  The UE must do DAD on the LAN, just in case.

>     I am not sure whether implementations already do proxy ND, ours doesnt.
>       I am not sure there is a need to do it either.
>
>
> It doesn't need to if you don't care if it works well or not :)

Ok.

Alex



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Vizdal,

>>> Define "RA proxy"?
>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4389#appendix-A
>=20
> It addresses the open points discussed in the above mentioned =
appendix, so the IPv6 prefix can be 'safely' shared.
> It leaves any proxying out as it is fully L3 routing based. Have a =
read if you want.

have now read, thanks. ;-)
I don't quite see where "safely" comes into the picture.
I think the second paragraph in appendix A, still applies to the =
solution in this draft.

I would recommend a strong applicability statement.

cheers,
Ole


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>> No - at the very minimum, you have to at least handle the case where =
the
>> sharing device's uplink MTU (e.g., 3G) is lower than the MTU on the
>> shared link (e.g., wifi). This cannot be supported by the network, it
>> must be supported by the sharing device.
>=20
> Yes, MTU is an issue that should be considered and maybe the IPv6 UE =
being a Router would not do the automatic fragmentation, but the node in =
the LAN would.

the host in the LAN would, but only if the first-hop router supported =
PMTUD. and no, it doesn't strictly speaking need a global address to do =
that for a directly connected host.

>>    E.g., the cellular network does not allow any traceroute nor PMTUd =
down
>>    to the User Equipment, regardless of it being a Host or a Router.
>>=20
>>=20
>> If PMTUd is not allowed, then IPv6 doesn't work. It's not an optional
>> part of the spec.
>=20
> But by this logic no existing IPv6 cellular host (leaving aside the =
64share) would work on IPv6 because none does PMTUd.  I mean I havent =
seen these messages.

I have no idea what an IPv6 cellular host is. I connect my host to a =
phone via WIFI, where the phone acts as a router with a cellular uplink.

> I note we talk two different things: MTU and PMTUd.
>=20
> One could deal with MTU discepancies by setting right MTU manually on =
interfaces on UE and Host on LAN.  More automatically by running PMTUd.

I'm not going to manually adjust anything. forget it.

> The first is easier to deal with both in impl and in spec, but the =
second assumes not only the Host or the UE does it but also the =
Correspondent Node.  I am not sure many such end nodes are able to do =
it.

every IPv6 node I'm aware of supports pmtud.

>>    Fourth, disabling autoconf once sharing is enabled means that this
>>=20
>>        method will not work on any network where the upstream prefix =
can
>>        change.
>>=20
>>=20
>>    Well, look at it another way.  A Router does not use autoconf =
anyways.
>>    So it is actually a bad behaviour to allow the Host to become a =
Router
>>    and subsequently autoconf an address from the RA it receives.  In
>>    theory.
>>=20
>>=20
>> RFC 6204 specifies that IPv6 CE routers use autoconf.
>=20
> And that is not a cellular router.

oh please. a cellular router is a router. an RFC6204 is a subset of a =
router, that has a certain interface with a dual host/router function.
that's exactly what your cellular router does. let us now fall back into =
the trap of designing different L3 functionality for all different L2s. =
like e.g. what we did with PPP for IPv4 vs DHCP for Ethernet.

>>    The bad situation could be the following: Router auto-configures =
an
>>    address from the RA received on the cellular, and then a Host in =
its LAN
>>    auto-configures the same address from the RA this Router =
advertises on
>>    this LAN (it's same prefix).  Two equal globally-scoped addresses =
on two
>>    different interfaces of different machines is not good.
>>=20
>>=20
>> That's why this draft should say that the sharing device must do DAD.
>=20
> YEs, that is right.  The UE must do DAD on the LAN, just in case.

obviously. you would do yourself a favour not trying to redesign the =
base IPv6 functionality.

>>    I am not sure whether implementations already do proxy ND, ours =
doesnt.
>>      I am not sure there is a need to do it either.
>>=20
>>=20
>> It doesn't need to if you don't care if it works well or not :)
>=20
> Ok.

cheers,
Ole


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Thread-Topic: Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Subject: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 16:13:59 +0900
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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--485b397dd4f56189de04ddd621ee
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On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org> wrote:

> the host in the LAN would, but only if the first-hop router supported
> PMTUD. and no, it doesn't strictly speaking need a global address to do
> that for a directly connected host.
>

But it does need a global address to send ICMP errors to off-link
destinations (i.e., everywhere else on the Internet).

--485b397dd4f56189de04ddd621ee
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Ole Troan <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:otroan@employees.org" target=3D"_blank">otroan@emp=
loyees.org</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=
=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><span style=3D"color:rgb(3=
4,34,34)">the host in the LAN would, but only if the first-hop router suppo=
rted PMTUD. and no, it doesn&#39;t strictly speaking need a global address =
to do that for a directly connected host.</span></div>

</blockquote><div><br></div><div style>But it does need a global address to=
 send ICMP errors to off-link destinations (i.e., everywhere else on the In=
ternet).</div></div></div></div>

--485b397dd4f56189de04ddd621ee--

From otroan@employees.org  Wed May 29 00:21:23 2013
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From: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>
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To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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Lorenzo,

> the host in the LAN would, but only if the first-hop router supported =
PMTUD. and no, it doesn't strictly speaking need a global address to do =
that for a directly connected host.
>=20
> But it does need a global address to send ICMP errors to off-link =
destinations (i.e., everywhere else on the Internet).

absolutely.
I think the draft should only describe scenario 2, and be explicit about =
the router using the weak host model.
it should also have a normative reference to RFC6204 making it clear =
that this device is a CE router, with some short term
hack for this particular link-type.

cheers,
Ole


From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Wed May 29 02:21:36 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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Le 29/05/2013 09:13, Lorenzo Colitti a écrit :
> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org
> <mailto:otroan@employees.org>> wrote:
>
>     the host in the LAN would, but only if the first-hop router
>     supported PMTUD. and no, it doesn't strictly speaking need a global
>     address to do that for a directly connected host.
>
>
> But it does need a global address to send ICMP errors to off-link
> destinations (i.e., everywhere else on the Internet).

I think this is a breaking point.

I dont think a Router must have a globally scoped unicast address always.

I think one goes too far in interpreting that as being a strong requirement.

I think this neglects what is already happening with many specs at IETF, 
at various maturity levels, and which dont assume every other RFC out 
there is a must.

Alex



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--047d7b5da79563f1d804ddd8054a
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On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Alexandru Petrescu <
alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

> I dont think a Router must have a globally scoped unicast address always.
>
> I think one goes too far in interpreting that as being a strong
> requirement.
>
> I think this neglects what is already happening with many specs at IETF,
> at various maturity levels, and which dont assume every other RFC out there
> is a must.
>

I think that "routers forwarding packets to and from global addresses
should have global addresses" is pretty clearly a must-have because it's
the only way to implement various non-optional parts of ICMPv6 in a way
that works.

But even if you disagree that it's a must, it's at least operational good
practice, and I think we need a better reason to recommend violating this
operational good practice than "we want to allow implementations not to
implement DAD".

--047d7b5da79563f1d804ddd8054a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Alexandru Petrescu <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com" target=3D"_=
blank">alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"=
gmail_extra">

<div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margi=
n:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204=
);border-left-style:solid;padding-left:1ex">I dont think a Router must have=
 a globally scoped unicast address always.<br>


<br>
I think one goes too far in interpreting that as being a strong requirement=
.<br>
<br>
I think this neglects what is already happening with many specs at IETF, at=
 various maturity levels, and which dont assume every other RFC out there i=
s a must.<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>I think that &quot;rout=
ers forwarding packets to and from global addresses should have global addr=
esses&quot; is pretty clearly a must-have because it&#39;s the only way to =
implement various non-optional parts of ICMPv6 in a way that works.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>But even if you disagree that it&#39;s a mu=
st, it&#39;s at least operational good practice, and I think we need a bett=
er reason to recommend violating this operational good practice than &quot;=
we want to allow implementations not to implement DAD&quot;.</div>

</div></div></div>

--047d7b5da79563f1d804ddd8054a--

From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Wed May 29 03:00:23 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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Le 29/05/2013 11:29, Lorenzo Colitti a écrit :
> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Alexandru Petrescu
> <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>>
>  wrote:
>
> I dont think a Router must have a globally scoped unicast address
> always.
>
> I think one goes too far in interpreting that as being a strong
> requirement.
>
> I think this neglects what is already happening with many specs at
> IETF, at various maturity levels, and which dont assume every other
> RFC out there is a must.
>
>
> I think that "routers forwarding packets to and from global addresses
> should have global addresses" is pretty clearly a must-have because
> it's the only way to implement various non-optional parts of ICMPv6
> in a way that works.
>
> But even if you disagree that it's a must, it's at least operational
>  good practice, and I think we need a better reason to recommend
> violating this operational good practice than "we want to allow
> implementations not to implement DAD".

Routers can forward packets between globally-scoped addresses without
needing such for self.  Small routers at the edge of the network with
1-2 routing table entries are less likely to break something, much less
than core network routers which better had ICMP Redirect, Packet Too Big.

DAD is good to do, but DAD wont offer uniqueness, wont fix the
duplication problem.

Should the UE Router keep its global address to maybe one day respond
with a Packet Too Big?

Or should the UE Router delete its global address to avoid one day a
duplicate situation with a Host in the LAN?

Alex




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Alexandru,

>> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Alexandru Petrescu
>> <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>>
>> wrote:
>> 
>> I dont think a Router must have a globally scoped unicast address
>> always.
>> 
>> I think one goes too far in interpreting that as being a strong
>> requirement.
>> 
>> I think this neglects what is already happening with many specs at
>> IETF, at various maturity levels, and which dont assume every other
>> RFC out there is a must.
>> 
>> 
>> I think that "routers forwarding packets to and from global addresses
>> should have global addresses" is pretty clearly a must-have because
>> it's the only way to implement various non-optional parts of ICMPv6
>> in a way that works.
>> 
>> But even if you disagree that it's a must, it's at least operational
>> good practice, and I think we need a better reason to recommend
>> violating this operational good practice than "we want to allow
>> implementations not to implement DAD".
> 
> Routers can forward packets between globally-scoped addresses without
> needing such for self.  Small routers at the edge of the network with
> 1-2 routing table entries are less likely to break something, much less
> than core network routers which better had ICMP Redirect, Packet Too Big.
> 
> DAD is good to do, but DAD wont offer uniqueness, wont fix the
> duplication problem.
> 
> Should the UE Router keep its global address to maybe one day respond
> with a Packet Too Big?
> 
> Or should the UE Router delete its global address to avoid one day a
> duplicate situation with a Host in the LAN?

I thought redesign of IPv6 was outside of the scope of v6ops.

cheers,
Ole


From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Wed May 29 05:07:52 2013
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Le 29/05/2013 12:36, Ole Troan a écrit :
> Alexandru,
>
>>> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Alexandru Petrescu
>>> <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I dont think a Router must have a globally scoped unicast address
>>> always.
>>>
>>> I think one goes too far in interpreting that as being a strong
>>> requirement.
>>>
>>> I think this neglects what is already happening with many specs at
>>> IETF, at various maturity levels, and which dont assume every other
>>> RFC out there is a must.
>>>
>>>
>>> I think that "routers forwarding packets to and from global addresses
>>> should have global addresses" is pretty clearly a must-have because
>>> it's the only way to implement various non-optional parts of ICMPv6
>>> in a way that works.
>>>
>>> But even if you disagree that it's a must, it's at least operational
>>> good practice, and I think we need a better reason to recommend
>>> violating this operational good practice than "we want to allow
>>> implementations not to implement DAD".
>>
>> Routers can forward packets between globally-scoped addresses without
>> needing such for self.  Small routers at the edge of the network with
>> 1-2 routing table entries are less likely to break something, much less
>> than core network routers which better had ICMP Redirect, Packet Too Big.
>>
>> DAD is good to do, but DAD wont offer uniqueness, wont fix the
>> duplication problem.
>>
>> Should the UE Router keep its global address to maybe one day respond
>> with a Packet Too Big?
>>
>> Or should the UE Router delete its global address to avoid one day a
>> duplicate situation with a Host in the LAN?
>
> I thought redesign of IPv6 was outside of the scope of v6ops.

I thought operational experience of IPv6 deployments were relevant.

Alex

>
> cheers,
> Ole
>
>
>



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>>>=20
>>> Or should the UE Router delete its global address to avoid one day a
>>> duplicate situation with a Host in the LAN?
>>=20
>> I thought redesign of IPv6 was outside of the scope of v6ops.
>=20
> I thought operational experience of IPv6 deployments were relevant.

do you have operational experience showing:
 - there is no consequence of a router not being able to send ICMPs
 - duplicate addresses is a bigger problem between hosts and the router =
than between a host and other hosts,
   justifying that the router shouldn't have a global address on the =
link?

if so, please share.

cheers,
Ole=

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Hi,

On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 02:07:38PM +0200, Alexandru Petrescu wrote:
> I thought operational experience of IPv6 deployments were relevant.

Then you should try to get some.

Really: the amount of noise you are contributing to this discussion is
unbearable.  I'm all for a good discussion, but not based on "well, I don't
really care about all these bits everybody and the standards are agreeing
on, so let's do it all differently now".

Gert Doering
        -- NetMaster
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG                        Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard
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Tel: +49 (89) 32356-444            USt-IdNr.: DE813185279

From rajiva@cisco.com  Wed May 29 06:32:14 2013
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From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva@cisco.com>
To: Ole Troan <otroan@employees.org>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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> it should also have a normative reference to RFC6204 making it clear that
> this device is a CE router,=20

+1.

Cheers,
Rajiv


> -----Original Message-----
> From: v6ops-bounces@ietf.org [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf
> Of Ole Troan
> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2013 3:21 AM
> To: Lorenzo Colitti
> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org WG
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
>=20
> Lorenzo,
>=20
> > the host in the LAN would, but only if the first-hop router supported
> PMTUD. and no, it doesn't strictly speaking need a global address to do t=
hat
> for a directly connected host.
> >
> > But it does need a global address to send ICMP errors to off-link
> destinations (i.e., everywhere else on the Internet).
>=20
> absolutely.
> I think the draft should only describe scenario 2, and be explicit about =
the
> router using the weak host model.
> it should also have a normative reference to RFC6204 making it clear that
> this device is a CE router, with some short term hack for this particular=
 link-
> type.
>=20
> cheers,
> Ole
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

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From: "STARK, BARBARA H" <bs7652@att.com>
To: Alexandru Petrescu <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com>, Ole Troan <ichiroumakino@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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Date: Wed, 29 May 2013 15:15:31 +0000
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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> I thought operational experience of IPv6 deployments were relevant.

My operational experience of CE routers and IP deployments (v4 and v6) sugg=
ests that a CE router that can't at the very least do diagnostics and troub=
leshooting against Internet destinations is a bad idea. Being able to launc=
h various simple tests from the router is critical when troubleshooting, so=
 that the LAN can be properly dismissed as the cause of a problem.=20

Therefore, I would never recommend that anyone get a CE router that can sup=
port a 3GPP IPv6 WAN interface (directly or via USB modem), but doesn't try=
 to assign itself a GUA that can be used to source traffic that gets sent o=
ut the WAN interface. That is, I would never recommend a "Scenario 1" IPv6 =
router to anyone.

When working with "wireline" CE router vendors to define the "unnumbered" m=
odel (where the CE router is expected to take its addresses from a prefix i=
t has been delegated via IA_PD), the router vendors said it wasn't a proble=
m to do this. They did ask us not to try to be specific about what interfac=
e the addresses got attached to. Some only had a single WAN and LAN interfa=
ce, in which case they intended to attach the addresses to the LAN interfac=
e. Others had a variety of internal interfaces, as well. This was especiall=
y true of the CE routers that supported multiple LAN networking technologie=
s (e.g., Ethernet and Wi-Fi), and those that could support multiple WAN int=
erfaces. The router vendors asked that we just describe the externally dete=
ctable behavior (treat it like a black box) and let them figure out how to =
do things internal to their products. This is reflected in the RFC 6204 req=
uirement:
   WAA-8:  If the IPv6 CE router does not acquire global IPv6
           address(es) from either SLAAC or DHCPv6, then it MUST create
           global IPv6 address(es) from its delegated prefix(es) and
           configure those on one of its internal virtual network
           interfaces.

If I were to translate that experience to this case, I would prefer to expe=
ct the following of an IPv6 CE router capable of a 3GPP interface:
If the WAN interface is a 3GPP interface, and there is an RA message with a=
n "A=3D1" prefix and flags M=3DO=3D0, treat the "A=3D1" prefix in the RA me=
ssage as if it were a /64 delegated prefix, and operate per RFC 6204 WAA-8 =
and WAA-9 (do weak host model). Do not do SLAAC on the WAN interface (i.e.,=
 there will be no DAD messages seen coming out the WAN interface). If LAN i=
nterface is active, advertise the /64 prefix on the LAN with A=3D1 and do D=
AD (to the LAN) for all self-assigned addresses from that prefix. Or, bette=
r yet, do RFC 6204 LAN-Side Configuration (Section 4.3). I don't know if al=
l of the WAN-Side Configuration requirements (Section 4.2 of RFC 6204) shou=
ld be applied to a 3GPP interface, so I'm hesitant about suggesting RFC 620=
4 be made normative in its entirety.

This is effectively Scenario 2, where the UE always considers its router fu=
nctionality to be enabled (because it was designed to primarily be a router=
), so it never does SLAAC on the WAN interface (unless M or O indicate the =
presence of a DHCPv6 server) and doesn't move its addresses around based on=
 the state of router functionality.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents, as someone who deals a lot with CE routers in ma=
ss market environments. UEs that do tethering are a whole different world, =
and I don't pretend to provide advice to them.
Barbara

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From: "cb.list6" <cb.list6@gmail.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 2:29 AM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:
> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Alexandru Petrescu
> <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I dont think a Router must have a globally scoped unicast address always.
>>
>> I think one goes too far in interpreting that as being a strong
>> requirement.
>>
>> I think this neglects what is already happening with many specs at IETF,
>> at various maturity levels, and which dont assume every other RFC out there
>> is a must.
>
>


I agree, it is not OK to break PMTU

I will remove scenario 1.

CB

> I think that "routers forwarding packets to and from global addresses should
> have global addresses" is pretty clearly a must-have because it's the only
> way to implement various non-optional parts of ICMPv6 in a way that works.
>
> But even if you disagree that it's a must, it's at least operational good
> practice, and I think we need a better reason to recommend violating this
> operational good practice than "we want to allow implementations not to
> implement DAD".
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Wed May 29 09:41:07 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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Le 29/05/2013 18:14, cb.list6 a écrit :
> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 2:29 AM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Alexandru Petrescu
>> <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> I dont think a Router must have a globally scoped unicast address always.
>>>
>>> I think one goes too far in interpreting that as being a strong
>>> requirement.
>>>
>>> I think this neglects what is already happening with many specs at IETF,
>>> at various maturity levels, and which dont assume every other RFC out there
>>> is a must.
>>
>>
>
>
> I agree, it is not OK to break PMTU

I am happy somebody agrees with me, and I must say I smile :-)

> I will remove scenario 1.

Yet I dont understand what's going on.

Breaking PMTUd (Path MTU Discovery) on UE IPv6 Router happens if that 
Router did receive some larger-than-1280 packets on the cellular 
interface and its WiFi were 1280.  I havent seen such packets.  Maybe 
they exist, maybe not.

One could go get some more operational experience, or someone else could 
try it if not done already.

Or one would look at the specs:

RFC1981 PMTUv6 "As discussed in section 1, IPv6 nodes are not required 
to implement Path MTU Discovery.  The requirements in this section apply 
only to those implementations that include Path MTU Discovery."

RFC6434 IPv6 Node Requirements about PMTUd:
"5.6. Path MTU Discovery and Packet Size
5.6.1. Path MTU Discovery - RFC 1981
    "Path MTU Discovery for IP version 6" [RFC1981] SHOULD be supported."

It's a SHOULD not a MUST.

"  From [RFC2460]:

       It is strongly recommended that IPv6 nodes implement Path MTU
       Discovery [RFC1981], in order to discover and take advantage of
       path MTUs greater than 1280 octets.  However, a minimal IPv6
       implementation (e.g., in a boot ROM) may simply restrict itself to
       sending packets no larger than 1280 octets, and omit
       implementation of Path MTU Discovery."

... sending packets no larger than 1280 and omit PMTUd...

'break PMTU' - means to me to have a link in the middle that is lower 
MTU than 1280.  That is ok to break, because PMTUd will signal it and 
that's it. (as DAD signals duplicates and that's it).

'break PMTUd' - means to me to eliminate the PMTUd(iscovery) 
functionality from some node.  That is ok to break as well, because it 
is not mandatory.

Alex

>
> CB
>
>> I think that "routers forwarding packets to and from global addresses should
>> have global addresses" is pretty clearly a must-have because it's the only
>> way to implement various non-optional parts of ICMPv6 in a way that works.
>>
>> But even if you disagree that it's a must, it's at least operational good
>> practice, and I think we need a better reason to recommend violating this
>> operational good practice than "we want to allow implementations not to
>> implement DAD".
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>
>
>



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From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 29 May 2013 18:40:55 +0200." <51A62F97.8070802@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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	It's not just PMTUD.  It's any ICMPv6 message.

-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

From owen@delong.com  Wed May 29 16:04:03 2013
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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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Cc: "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Personally, I think this is an inherently bad idea.

IP addresses need less overloading of semantics, not more.

We already use IP addresses for two conflicting purposes=85 Topology =
locator and End System Identifier.

This overloading is at the heart of our current scaling issues with =
respect to the routing table. While these issues are currently less =
critical than they have been in the past and will likely get quite a bit =
less critical in IPv6, that is only because we have given up a fair =
amount of functionality to preserve scalability in this regard.

If we did not have this overloading, then an entity could obtain a set =
of end-system identifiers and keep them throughout their lifetime, =
regardless of topological changes. Today, where the addresses are =
overloaded with both semantics, we either have to force most entities to =
change their numbers when they change topology or we face unsustainable =
growth in the routing tables.

The idea of adding more semantics to addressing rather than seeking to =
reduce this overloading seems a step in the wrong direction, IMHO.

Owen

On May 29, 2013, at 12:06 AM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:

> IP addresses are designed as topology locator, so that every packet =
can be routed to its network destination.
>=20
> However, even in IPv4 era, some network operators have mapped their IP =
address with certain semantic locally. These kind of mechanism =
explicitly express the semantic properties of every packet. =
Consequently, these network operators can inspect the properties of =
packets easily by mapping the addresses back to semantic.
>=20
> Network operators, who have large IPv6 address space, may also choose =
to embedded some semantics into IPv6 addresses by assigning additional =
significance to specific bits within the prefix. =
draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix documents a framework method that =
network operations may use their addresses with embedded semantics. =
These semantics bits are only meaningful within a single network, or =
group of interconnected networks which share a common addressing policy. =
Based on these embedded semantic bits in source/destination addresses, =
the network operators can accordingly treat network packets differently =
and efficiently.
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>=20
> Could you please review this draft and comments? It will help the =
document become more useful information to be shared.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Sheng
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:28 AM
>> To: Qiong Sun; Ian Farrer; Sheng Jiang; Boyang
>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>> draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03.txt
>>=20
>>=20
>> A new version of I-D, draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03.txt
>> has been successfully submitted by Sheng Jiang and posted to the
>> IETF repository.
>>=20
>> Filename:	 draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix
>> Revision:	 03
>> Title:		 A Framework for Semantic IPv6 Prefix
>> Creation date:	 2013-05-28
>> Group:		 Individual Submission
>> Number of pages: 19
>> URL:
>> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03.t=
xt
>> Status:
>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix
>> Htmlized:
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>> Diff:
>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03=

>>=20
>> Abstract:
>>  This document describes a framework method that network operations
>>  may use their addresses.  Network operators, who have large IPv6
>>  address space, may choose to embedded some semantics into IPv6
>>  addresses by assigning additional significance to specific bits
>>  within the prefix.  By embedded semantics into IPv6 prefixes, the
>>  semantics of packets can be inspected easily.  Routers and other
>>  intermediary devices can easily apply relevant policies as required.
>>  Packet-level differentiation can also enable flow-level and user-
>>  level differentiation.  Consequently, the network operators can
>>  accordingly treat network packets differently and efficiently.  The
>>  management and maintenance of networks can be much simpler.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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Alex,

An end-node which does not support PMTUd and only sends =E2=89=A41280 =
octet datagrams is fine.

A router which is not an end-node and does not have the ability to send =
PTB notifications back, on the other hand, is an entirely different =
creature.

Since we are talking about a UE acting as a router in this case, we =
cannot ignore the need for routers to implement PMTUd which means that =
the router MUST have a global address from which it can source PTB =
messages.

Yes, it is possible for a UE to have a larger cellular MTU and a =
downstream link which has a smaller MTU. Whether such exists in the wild =
today or not, it is permitted in a variety of standards that already =
exist and therefore must be considered in developing further standards =
as it is a valid scenario.

Owen

On May 29, 2013, at 9:40 AM, Alexandru Petrescu =
<alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

> Le 29/05/2013 18:14, cb.list6 a =C3=A9crit :
>> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 2:29 AM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> =
wrote:
>>> On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 6:21 PM, Alexandru Petrescu
>>> <alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>=20
>>>> I dont think a Router must have a globally scoped unicast address =
always.
>>>>=20
>>>> I think one goes too far in interpreting that as being a strong
>>>> requirement.
>>>>=20
>>>> I think this neglects what is already happening with many specs at =
IETF,
>>>> at various maturity levels, and which dont assume every other RFC =
out there
>>>> is a must.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> I agree, it is not OK to break PMTU
>=20
> I am happy somebody agrees with me, and I must say I smile :-)
>=20
>> I will remove scenario 1.
>=20
> Yet I dont understand what's going on.
>=20
> Breaking PMTUd (Path MTU Discovery) on UE IPv6 Router happens if that =
Router did receive some larger-than-1280 packets on the cellular =
interface and its WiFi were 1280.  I havent seen such packets.  Maybe =
they exist, maybe not.
>=20
> One could go get some more operational experience, or someone else =
could try it if not done already.
>=20
> Or one would look at the specs:
>=20
> RFC1981 PMTUv6 "As discussed in section 1, IPv6 nodes are not required =
to implement Path MTU Discovery.  The requirements in this section apply =
only to those implementations that include Path MTU Discovery."
>=20
> RFC6434 IPv6 Node Requirements about PMTUd:
> "5.6. Path MTU Discovery and Packet Size
> 5.6.1. Path MTU Discovery - RFC 1981
>   "Path MTU Discovery for IP version 6" [RFC1981] SHOULD be =
supported."
>=20
> It's a SHOULD not a MUST.
>=20
> "  =46rom [RFC2460]:
>=20
>      It is strongly recommended that IPv6 nodes implement Path MTU
>      Discovery [RFC1981], in order to discover and take advantage of
>      path MTUs greater than 1280 octets.  However, a minimal IPv6
>      implementation (e.g., in a boot ROM) may simply restrict itself =
to
>      sending packets no larger than 1280 octets, and omit
>      implementation of Path MTU Discovery."
>=20
> ... sending packets no larger than 1280 and omit PMTUd...
>=20
> 'break PMTU' - means to me to have a link in the middle that is lower =
MTU than 1280.  That is ok to break, because PMTUd will signal it and =
that's it. (as DAD signals duplicates and that's it).
>=20
> 'break PMTUd' - means to me to eliminate the PMTUd(iscovery) =
functionality from some node.  That is ok to break as well, because it =
is not mandatory.
>=20
> Alex
>=20
>>=20
>> CB
>>=20
>>> I think that "routers forwarding packets to and from global =
addresses should
>>> have global addresses" is pretty clearly a must-have because it's =
the only
>>> way to implement various non-optional parts of ICMPv6 in a way that =
works.
>>>=20
>>> But even if you disagree that it's a must, it's at least operational =
good
>>> practice, and I think we need a better reason to recommend violating =
this
>>> operational good practice than "we want to allow implementations not =
to
>>> implement DAD".
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


From alexandru.petrescu@gmail.com  Wed May 29 22:06:37 2013
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-64share-07.txt
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Le 30/05/2013 00:21, Mark Andrews a écrit :
>
> 	It's not just PMTUD.  It's any ICMPv6 message.

Put that way I tend to agree.

But one would need to look at the detail of all such messages.  Or only 
the ICMPv6 messages in RFC4443 ICMPv6?

I mean: ok for EchoReq, ParameterProblem, TimeExceeded.

However, DestUnreachable I dont think is valid.  This Gateway thinks 
there is a single address to the link, not the entire set of addresses. 
  As such it would be not quite good to say that a Dest is unreachable 
since the Gateway didnt pretend to either, or did it.

The many other ICMPv6 messages in other RFCs: eg Redirect of ND, or the 
ICMPv6 RPL control message, or the DHAAD.  I doubt they're all supported 
or needed.

But yes, I tend to agree that many ICMPv6 messages may need that GUA and 
is good.

Alex

>



From jiangsheng@huawei.com  Wed May 29 23:34:52 2013
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Cc: "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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On 30 May 2013, at 00:02, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:

> Personally, I think this is an inherently bad idea.
>=20
> IP addresses need less overloading of semantics, not more.
>=20
> We already use IP addresses for two conflicting purposes=85 Topology =
locator and End System Identifier.
>=20
> This overloading is at the heart of our current scaling issues with =
respect to the routing table. While these issues are currently less =
critical than they have been in the past and will likely get quite a bit =
less critical in IPv6, that is only because we have given up a fair =
amount of functionality to preserve scalability in this regard.
>=20
> If we did not have this overloading, then an entity could obtain a set =
of end-system identifiers and keep them throughout their lifetime, =
regardless of topological changes. Today, where the addresses are =
overloaded with both semantics, we either have to force most entities to =
change their numbers when they change topology or we face unsustainable =
growth in the routing tables.
>=20
> The idea of adding more semantics to addressing rather than seeking to =
reduce this overloading seems a step in the wrong direction, IMHO.

I agree. That said, an ISP, enterprise or group of organisations can =
follow whatever semantics they wish within their own borders. Just don't =
expect anyone else to follow or use those semantics.  What Sheng is =
proposing is clearly stated as only being for interpretation between =
agreeing organisations.

There are examples of organisations or protocols already doing this, be =
it embedding VLAN IDs or port number representations in addresses.  And =
of protocols - in particular 6rd comes to mind as an example of an IPv6 =
addressing scheme with embedded semantics, which only has meaning within =
one ISP.

It's not that different to DSCP semantics, which for example have been =
widely applied across academic networks, except of course the DSCP can =
be rewritten in transit. Whether someone outside the  organisation can =
infer "private" information from the semantics may be an open question.

I think people will do this type of thing, so an Informational document =
discussing the pros and cons, and how semantics can be used, is probably =
a good thing.  Perhaps a "Potential Pitfalls" type section after the =
"Potential Benefits" section would balance the document a little better?

Tim

> Owen
>=20
> On May 29, 2013, at 12:06 AM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> =
wrote:
>=20
>> IP addresses are designed as topology locator, so that every packet =
can be routed to its network destination.
>>=20
>> However, even in IPv4 era, some network operators have mapped their =
IP address with certain semantic locally. These kind of mechanism =
explicitly express the semantic properties of every packet. =
Consequently, these network operators can inspect the properties of =
packets easily by mapping the addresses back to semantic.
>>=20
>> Network operators, who have large IPv6 address space, may also choose =
to embedded some semantics into IPv6 addresses by assigning additional =
significance to specific bits within the prefix. =
draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix documents a framework method that =
network operations may use their addresses with embedded semantics. =
These semantics bits are only meaningful within a single network, or =
group of interconnected networks which share a common addressing policy. =
Based on these embedded semantic bits in source/destination addresses, =
the network operators can accordingly treat network packets differently =
and efficiently.
>>=20
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>>=20
>> Could you please review this draft and comments? It will help the =
document become more useful information to be shared.
>>=20
>> Best regards,
>>=20
>> Sheng
>>=20
>>> -----Original Message-----
>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:28 AM
>>> To: Qiong Sun; Ian Farrer; Sheng Jiang; Boyang
>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>> draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03.txt
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> A new version of I-D, draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03.txt
>>> has been successfully submitted by Sheng Jiang and posted to the
>>> IETF repository.
>>>=20
>>> Filename:	 draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix
>>> Revision:	 03
>>> Title:		 A Framework for Semantic IPv6 Prefix
>>> Creation date:	 2013-05-28
>>> Group:		 Individual Submission
>>> Number of pages: 19
>>> URL:
>>> =
http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03.t=
xt
>>> Status:
>>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix
>>> Htmlized:
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>>> Diff:
>>> =
http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>>>=20
>>> Abstract:
>>> This document describes a framework method that network operations
>>> may use their addresses.  Network operators, who have large IPv6
>>> address space, may choose to embedded some semantics into IPv6
>>> addresses by assigning additional significance to specific bits
>>> within the prefix.  By embedded semantics into IPv6 prefixes, the
>>> semantics of packets can be inspected easily.  Routers and other
>>> intermediary devices can easily apply relevant policies as required.
>>> Packet-level differentiation can also enable flow-level and user-
>>> level differentiation.  Consequently, the network operators can
>>> accordingly treat network packets differently and efficiently.  The
>>> management and maintenance of networks can be much simpler.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


From lorenzo@google.com  Wed May 29 23:41:23 2013
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 15:41:02 +0900
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Cc: "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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--089e0149d22061d2c804dde9c9b7
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

News at 11:

1. ULAs leak.
2. People assign ULAs by hand.

Yes, both of these a violation of IETF guidance. I don't think that matters
much, though - while we can always claim that the implementer/operator is
"holding it wrong", we should be careful that what we design/standardize is
hard to misconfigure and possibly robust in the face of misconfiguration.
Subtle nuances like "these addresses are global scope, but not globally
routable" tend to get lost very easily.

Of course, in the case of ULAs, there's not much that can be done about the
design at this point, but we should make an effort to make it clear that
the potential for misconfiguration exists and provide clear guidance on how
not to misconfigure them.

Personally, I think that providing said guidance is much more useful and
important than enumerating scenarios that aren't widely, if at all,
implemented, and I hope that the authors
of draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations will agree.

Cheers,
Lorenzo

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@massar.ch>
Date: Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:59 AM
Subject: Usage of fd00::/8 on the Interwebz - something with filters and
uRPF
To: ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de


...
 4  2001:7f8:1::a500:3303:1 (2001:7f8:1::a500:3303:1)  20.755 ms  20.763 ms
 20.784 ms
 5  fd00:3303::1 (fd00:3303::1)  22.010 ms  21.984 ms  21.986 ms
 6  2a02:120c:1051:d010::1 (2a02:120c:1051:d010::1)  17.806 ms  17.889 ms
 17.842 ms
 7  2a02:120c:1051:d010::1 (2a02:120c:1051:d010::1)  18.720 ms  18.593 ms
 18.617 ms
...

Hmmmm fd00::/8, that really should never ever be visible on the Internet,
being Unique *LOCAL* Addresses.
And it does not look like they applied the randomness bit for picking a
prefix either.
You would also almost think that a /28 is more than enough address space to
put a few router loopbacks in.

It is apparently time for people to start checking their filters again
because it seems that these packets leak into other ASNs too...

More generally, do recheck your network for BCP38 compliance, please do
apply it and require your peers to do the same!

Greets,
 Jeroen

--089e0149d22061d2c804dde9c9b7
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr"><div style>News at 11:</div><div style><br></div><div styl=
e>1. ULAs leak.<br></div><div style>2. People assign ULAs by hand.</div><di=
v style><br></div><div style>Yes, both of these a violation of IETF guidanc=
e. I don&#39;t think that matters much, though - while we can always claim =
that the implementer/operator is &quot;holding it wrong&quot;, we should be=
 careful that what we design/standardize is hard to misconfigure and possib=
ly robust in the face of misconfiguration. Subtle nuances like &quot;these =
addresses are global scope, but not globally routable&quot; tend to get los=
t very easily.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>Of course, in the case of ULAs, there&#39;s=
 not much that can be done about the design at this point, but we should ma=
ke an effort to make it clear that the potential for misconfiguration exist=
s and provide clear guidance on how not to misconfigure them.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>Personally, I think that providing said gui=
dance is much more useful and important than enumerating scenarios that are=
n&#39;t widely, if at all, implemented, and I hope that the authors of=A0dr=
aft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations will agree.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>Cheers,</div><div style>Lorenzo</div><div s=
tyle><br></div><div><div class=3D"gmail_quote">---------- Forwarded message=
 ----------<br>From: <b class=3D"gmail_sendername">Jeroen Massar</b> <span =
dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jeroen@massar.ch">jeroen@massar.ch</a>&gt=
;</span><br>

Date: Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:59 AM<br>Subject: Usage of fd00::/8 on the Int=
erwebz - something with filters and uRPF<br>To: <a href=3D"mailto:ipv6-ops@=
lists.cluenet.de">ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de</a><br><br><br>...<br>
=A04 =A02001:7f8:1::a500:3303:1 (2001:7f8:1::a500:3303:1) =A020.755 ms =A02=
0.763 ms =A020.784 ms<br>
=A05 =A0fd00:3303::1 (fd00:3303::1) =A022.010 ms =A021.984 ms =A021.986 ms<=
br>
=A06 =A02a02:120c:1051:d010::1 (2a02:120c:1051:d010::1) =A017.806 ms =A017.=
889 ms =A017.842 ms<br>
=A07 =A02a02:120c:1051:d010::1 (2a02:120c:1051:d010::1) =A018.720 ms =A018.=
593 ms =A018.617 ms<br>
...<br>
<br>
Hmmmm fd00::/8, that really should never ever be visible on the Internet, b=
eing Unique *LOCAL* Addresses.<br>
And it does not look like they applied the randomness bit for picking a pre=
fix either.<br>
You would also almost think that a /28 is more than enough address space to=
 put a few router loopbacks in.<br>
<br>
It is apparently time for people to start checking their filters again beca=
use it seems that these packets leak into other ASNs too...<br>
<br>
More generally, do recheck your network for BCP38 compliance, please do app=
ly it and require your peers to do the same!<br>
<br>
Greets,<br>
=A0Jeroen<br>
</div><br></div></div>

--089e0149d22061d2c804dde9c9b7--

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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC98DAE@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <03680813-07D9-459B-A229-FA974C9A4B9E@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8E492087-390E-4F8E-8078-1D0E63849243@delong.com> <EMEW3|f3c1b4957f182cbee8e02a76a09ead4dp4Y7Ye03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|03680813-07D9-459B-A229-FA974C9A4B9E@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 15:47:37 +0900
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:

> I agree. That said, an ISP, enterprise or group of organisations can
> follow whatever semantics they wish within their own borders.
>

As long as the RIRs are willing to give them enough address space to do so.

If an ISP requested an IPv6 /10 from ARIN because they wanted to give every
customer a /48 and wanted to geocode the customer's subscriber ID into the
/48, then ARIN would do well to say, "no, sorry, that doesn't make sense".

Lest someone not realize this, the draft should clearly state that
embedding N bits of semantics into IPv6 addresses causes the network to use
2^N times the address space that it normally would.

IMO I think it should also state that although it is an IETF RFC, this
model is not necessarily a recommended model, and that RIRs are not obliged
to accept this type of address allocation as a justification for obtaining
larger address blocks than they would normally be able to obtain.

--047d7b339a3fecc88304dde9e074
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Tim Chown <span dir=3D"lt=
r">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">tjc@ecs.sot=
on.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"=
gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im"><span style=3D"color:rgb(3=
4,34,34)">I agree. That said, an ISP, enterprise or group of organisations =
can follow whatever semantics they wish within their own borders.</span></d=
iv>

</blockquote><div><br></div><div style>As long as the RIRs are willing to g=
ive them enough address space to do so.</div><div style><br></div><div styl=
e>If an ISP requested an IPv6 /10 from ARIN because they wanted to give eve=
ry customer a /48 and wanted to geocode the customer&#39;s subscriber ID in=
to the /48, then ARIN would do well to say, &quot;no, sorry, that doesn&#39=
;t make sense&quot;.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>Lest someone not realize this, the draft sh=
ould clearly state that embedding N bits of semantics into IPv6 addresses c=
auses the network to use 2^N times the address space that it normally would=
.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>IMO I think it should also state that altho=
ugh it is an IETF RFC, this model is not necessarily a recommended model, a=
nd that RIRs are not obliged to accept this type of address allocation as a=
 justification for obtaining larger address blocks than they would normally=
 be able to obtain.</div>

</div></div></div>

--047d7b339a3fecc88304dde9e074--

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Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 16:55:41 +1000
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From: George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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--e89a8ff1c13a95d89c04dde9fc2a
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Which is pretty much what was said to mike, when this came up in the WG 2
IETFs ago. Overloading parts of the allocation space under your /32 makes a
complete mockery of the process model which justified the /32 based on /56
or /48 consumption plans, and while the H/D ratio is a somewhat rei-fied
number, this kind of scheme will alter consumption of the address space
massively.

That some large ISPs and network operators *want* to overload bits in the
address to have meaning? Sure. I can believe that. That vendors, knowing
this, *want* to encode logic into sold routers, devices, to exploit this?
Sure. I can believe that.

is it a good architecture? No. I cannot currently believe that.

-george


On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:

> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk> wrote:
>
>> I agree. That said, an ISP, enterprise or group of organisations can
>> follow whatever semantics they wish within their own borders.
>>
>
> As long as the RIRs are willing to give them enough address space to do so.
>
> If an ISP requested an IPv6 /10 from ARIN because they wanted to give
> every customer a /48 and wanted to geocode the customer's subscriber ID
> into the /48, then ARIN would do well to say, "no, sorry, that doesn't make
> sense".
>
> Lest someone not realize this, the draft should clearly state that
> embedding N bits of semantics into IPv6 addresses causes the network to use
> 2^N times the address space that it normally would.
>
> IMO I think it should also state that although it is an IETF RFC, this
> model is not necessarily a recommended model, and that RIRs are not obliged
> to accept this type of address allocation as a justification for obtaining
> larger address blocks than they would normally be able to obtain.
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>

--e89a8ff1c13a95d89c04dde9fc2a
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">Which is pretty much what was said to mike, when this came=
 up in the WG 2 IETFs ago. Overloading parts of the allocation space under =
your /32 makes a complete mockery of the process model which justified the =
/32 based on /56 or /48 consumption plans, and while the H/D ratio is a som=
ewhat rei-fied number, this kind of scheme will alter consumption of the ad=
dress space massively.<div>
<br></div><div style>That some large ISPs and network operators *want* to o=
verload bits in the address to have meaning? Sure. I can believe that. That=
 vendors, knowing this, *want* to encode logic into sold routers, devices, =
to exploit this? Sure. I can believe that.</div>
<div style><br></div><div style>is it a good architecture? No. I cannot cur=
rently believe that.</div><div style><br></div><div style>-george</div></di=
v><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Thu, May=
 30, 2013 at 4:47 PM, Lorenzo Colitti <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mail=
to:lorenzo@google.com" target=3D"_blank">lorenzo@google.com</a>&gt;</span> =
wrote:<br>
<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir=3D"ltr"><div class=3D"im">On Thu, M=
ay 30, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Tim Chown <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:t=
jc@ecs.soton.ac.uk" target=3D"_blank">tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk</a>&gt;</span> wr=
ote:<br>
</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div class=3D"i=
m">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">I a=
gree. That said, an ISP, enterprise or group of organisations can follow wh=
atever semantics they wish within their own borders.</span></div>


</blockquote><div><br></div></div><div>As long as the RIRs are willing to g=
ive them enough address space to do so.</div><div><br></div><div>If an ISP =
requested an IPv6 /10 from ARIN because they wanted to give every customer =
a /48 and wanted to geocode the customer&#39;s subscriber ID into the /48, =
then ARIN would do well to say, &quot;no, sorry, that doesn&#39;t make sens=
e&quot;.</div>


<div><br></div><div>Lest someone not realize this, the draft should clearly=
 state that embedding N bits of semantics into IPv6 addresses causes the ne=
twork to use 2^N times the address space that it normally would.</div>


<div><br></div><div>IMO I think it should also state that although it is an=
 IETF RFC, this model is not necessarily a recommended model, and that RIRs=
 are not obliged to accept this type of address allocation as a justificati=
on for obtaining larger address blocks than they would normally be able to =
obtain.</div>


</div></div></div>
<br>_______________________________________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br></div>

--e89a8ff1c13a95d89c04dde9fc2a--

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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
Thread-Index: AQHOXDsZXTVBYam7gkul8TB7nKV985kcQnwAgAB+FQCAAIm9sA==
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 07:00:59 +0000
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Cc: "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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On 30 May 2013, at 08:00, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:
>>=20
>> I agree. That said, an ISP, enterprise or group of organisations can =
follow
>> whatever semantics they wish within their own borders. Just don't =
expect
>> anyone else to follow or use those semantics.  What Sheng is =
proposing is
>> clearly stated as only being for interpretation between agreeing
>> organisations.
>=20
> Hi, Tim,
>=20
> It is exactly what the draft document. These semantics is only =
meaningful locally within the assigning provider network. It may only be =
interpretation between agreeing providers.
>=20
> Any efforts to add global or generic semantics to IP address is =
overload the IP architecture and it bad direction, I agree.
>=20
>> I think people will do this type of thing, so an Informational =
document
>> discussing the pros and cons, and how semantics can be used, is =
probably a
>> good thing.  Perhaps a "Potential Pitfalls" type section after the =
"Potential
>> Benefits" section would balance the document a little better?
>=20
> Yes. We will do so in the future version.=20

Good, and I think it's important to do so. George and Lorenzo's comments =
are good starting points for that section. The potential =
privacy/information leakage aspect is also worth capturing, should those =
addresses be seen outside the organisation.

6rd is a good example of a scheme that typically requires a larger =
allocation from the RIR purely because of the semantics used.  But in =
some cases the semantics need not require a larger allocation; we could =
include semantics in a campus /48 for example.

Tim=

From jiangsheng@huawei.com  Thu May 30 00:13:48 2013
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>, Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 07:13:01 +0000
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 16:18:58 +0900
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To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:

>  Yes, there is no intension to change ARIN=92s policy at all. ARIN should
> remain the current policy of assign IPv6 address block. But the network
> providers, who has already get address block, can choose to use the
> addresses with certain semantics. And no one, including ARIN can stop thi=
s.
>

Agreed, but even for network providers that already have blocks, this will
be an issue if they ever need another block. But I do think you should
write this in the draft.


> However, it is not necessary as worse as 2^N times. For example, it there
> are 2 bits to separate different use types (say 4 different types), it
> actually only separate use address spaces into four different spaces. It
> does not limit the address space to be 1/4 of original space.
>

How is that different from saying "by adding two bits of semantics in the
prefix, the network will use 4 times the address space than it would
otherwise"?

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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Sheng Jiang <span dir=3D"=
ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jiangsh=
eng@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div cla=
ss=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(31,73,125);font-family:Cali=
bri,sans-serif;font-size:10.5pt">Yes, there is no intension to change ARIN=
=92s policy at all. ARIN should remain the current policy of assign IPv6 ad=
dress block. But the network
 providers, who has already get address block, can choose to use the addres=
ses with certain semantics. And no one, including ARIN can stop this.</span=
></p></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>Agreed, but even fo=
r network providers that already have blocks, this will be an issue if they=
 ever need another block. But I do think you should write this in the draft=
.</div>

<div>=A0</div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;=
border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"bl=
ue" vlink=3D"purple"><div><p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span style=3D"color:rgb(3=
1,73,125);font-family:Calibri,sans-serif;font-size:10.5pt">However, it is n=
ot necessary as worse as 2^N times.
 For example, it there are 2 bits to separate different use types (say 4 di=
fferent types), it actually only separate use address spaces into four diff=
erent spaces. It does not limit the address space to be 1/4 of original spa=
ce.</span></p>

</div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>How is that different fr=
om saying &quot;by adding two bits of semantics in the prefix, the network =
will use 4 times the address space than it would otherwise&quot;?</div>

</div></div></div>

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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 07:56:24 +0000
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>
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Cc: "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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>________________________________=0A> From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google=
.com>=0A>To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org> =0A>Cc: "draft-ietf-v6ops=
-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-reco=
mmendations@tools.ietf.org> =0A>Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2013 4:41 PM=0A>Subj=
ect: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs=0A> =0A>=
=0A>=0A>News at 11:=0A>=0A>=0A>1. ULAs leak.=0A>=0A>2. People assign ULAs b=
y hand.=0A>=0A=0AIn the early news, not really a new problem.=0A=0ARFC1918 =
and 100.64/10 leak too, and what is worse, I've seen people intentionally e=
xpose RFC1918s to other networks - the largest carrier here in .au uses RFC=
1918 addresses for their wholesale ADSL L2TP LACs (from memory, at least 20=
 to 30, spread across multiple /16s within 172.16/12) and then expect their=
 many wholesale ADSL customers' to just accept those addresses and make the=
m work within their own networks, despite their own, quite legitimate inter=
nal use of 172.16/12 (fortunately VRFs/VPNs can be used to isolate that add=
ress space from your own). So we can't pretend that RFC1918s have been perf=
ectly used, and therefore ULAs being less private than intended is going to=
 be new problem and experience. At least properly formed ULAs are unlikely =
to conflict with other network's ones, even if the other network has used f=
d00::/8, and if the two interconnecting parties have both been lazy and use=
d fd00::/8, they'll both be victims of theirs and the other
 party's laziness (which they'll be used to, since they've probably experie=
nced it with RFC1918). They'll probably resort to NPTv6 to fix it, because =
that is what they're used to, rather than using IPv6's address aging mechan=
isms to renumber to a properly formed ULA. Good luck to them, as long as it=
 doesn't effect the rest of us.=0A=0A=0A>=0A=0A>Yes, both of these a violat=
ion of IETF guidance. I don't think that matters much, though - while we ca=
n always claim that the implementer/operator is "holding it wrong", we shou=
ld be careful that what we design/standardize is hard to misconfigure and p=
ossibly robust in the face of misconfiguration. Subtle nuances like "these =
addresses are global scope, but not globally routable" tend to get lost ver=
y easily.=0A>=0A=0AI think recommending against ULAs is just going to resul=
t in people stealing other address spaces for devices that don't need globa=
l reachability - like 2001:db8::/32, or unused global address space (as we =
saw with 1/8, 5/8 and other IPv4 prefixes).=0A=0AI think global address spa=
ce comes with and implies a default assumption of global reachability, and =
you'll therefore have to actively take measures to ensure they don't provid=
e global reachability if you don't want it. Link-locals don't cut it becaus=
e they're not routable. The need ULAs fulfils is the gap in between global =
space and link-locals, and the one which RFC1918 generally fulfils in IPv4,=
 except that the likelyhood of address space collision is reduced.=0A=0A>=
=0A>Of course, in the case of ULAs, there's not much that can be done about=
 the design at this point, but we should make an effort to make it clear th=
at the potential for misconfiguration exists and provide clear guidance on =
how not to misconfigure them.=0A>=0A>=0A=0A>Personally, I think that provid=
ing said guidance is much more useful and important than enumerating scenar=
ios that aren't widely, if at all, implemented, and I hope that the authors=
 of=A0draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations will agree.=0A>=0A=0ASo is=
 this draft aiming for BCP status and therefore should only reflect best co=
mmon practice? If not, I think it is reasonable to present scenarios where =
ULAs could be useful.=A0We've got a lot of experience with private address =
spaces from IPv4 (the=A0Deprecating Site Local Addresses RFC3879 is also a =
pretty complete list of the problems with RFC1918 addresses), so the only r=
eal difference is scenarios where concurrent global and private address spa=
ces could be useful. In some cases, they'll just be more capable versions o=
f what we've already doing in IPv4 e.g. private addressed loopbacks on rout=
ers, global addresses on the links, in a ULA environment you would add ULAs=
 to the links too, which could make troubleshooting and other OAM less depe=
ndent on the global address space.=0A=0ARegards,=0AMark.=0A=0A>=0A>Cheers,=
=0A>Lorenzo=0A>=0A>=0A>---------- Forwarded message ----------=0A>From: Jer=
oen Massar <jeroen@massar.ch>=0A>Date: Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:59 AM=0A>Subj=
ect: Usage of fd00::/8 on the Interwebz - something with filters and uRPF=
=0A>To: ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de=0A>=0A>=0A>...=0A>=A04 =A02001:7f8:1::a50=
0:3303:1 (2001:7f8:1::a500:3303:1) =A020.755 ms =A020.763 ms =A020.784 ms=
=0A>=A05 =A0fd00:3303::1 (fd00:3303::1) =A022.010 ms =A021.984 ms =A021.986=
 ms=0A>=A06 =A02a02:120c:1051:d010::1 (2a02:120c:1051:d010::1) =A017.806 ms=
 =A017.889 ms =A017.842 ms=0A>=A07 =A02a02:120c:1051:d010::1 (2a02:120c:105=
1:d010::1) =A018.720 ms =A018.593 ms =A018.617 ms=0A>...=0A>=0A>Hmmmm fd00:=
:/8, that really should never ever be visible on the Internet, being Unique=
 *LOCAL* Addresses.=0A>And it does not look like they applied the randomnes=
s bit for picking a prefix either.=0A>You would also almost think that a /2=
8 is more than enough address space to put a few router loopbacks in.=0A>=
=0A>It is apparently time for people to start checking their filters again =
because it seems that these packets leak into other ASNs too...=0A>=0A>More=
 generally, do recheck your network for BCP38 compliance, please do apply i=
t and require your peers to do the same!=0A>=0A>Greets,=0A>=A0Jeroen=0A>=0A=
>=0A>_______________________________________________=0A>v6ops mailing list=
=0A>v6ops@ietf.org=0A>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=0A>=0A>=
=0A>

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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 08:46:41 +0000
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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--001a11c29f6027702b04ddebd4a6
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On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>wrote:

> In the early news, not really a new problem.
>

The part where an RFC asserts says that we can generate globally unique
addresses with no global coordination is a new problem. Yes, in theory it
works, but in practice it doesn't, because everyone ends up using fd00:: -
because that's the way it worked in IPv4, and ULA is just RFC1918 all over
again, right?

The key point here is that people are going to assume is that ULA is like
RFC1918 and we should carefully document all the ways in which it isn't.

So is this draft aiming for BCP status and therefore should only reflect
> best common practice?
>

I think documents coming out of v6ops should reflect scenarios where there
is operational experience. I don't think v6ops is the place to say "here's
what we could build". It's the place to say "here's what we've built;
here's what works, and here's what doesn't".

As an example: we've already discovered one of the use cases in this draft
(the "use ULA as a pref64") is not a use case after all, because it causes
devices to prefer IPv4 transition technologies like 464xlat over NAT64. We
didn't know this because nobody had actually tried to *operate a network*
in such a use case. I happened to catch that one because I wrote and tested
an implementation, but who knows if there are caveats in any of the others?

If as an operational group we publish guidance to operators that doesn't
work in the real world (like the pref64 case above), it will be
embarrassing for us and wasteful of operators' time. We should strive to do
better than that.

--001a11c29f6027702b04ddebd4a6
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Mark Smith <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au" target=3D"_blank">mark=
zzzsmith@yahoo.com.au</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<div><div class=3D"gmail_extra">=
<div class=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">In the early news, not really a new problem.=
<br></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>The part where an RFC asserts sa=
ys that we can generate globally unique addresses with no global coordinati=
on is a new problem. Yes, in theory it works, but in practice it doesn&#39;=
t, because everyone ends up using fd00:: - because that&#39;s the way it wo=
rked in IPv4, and ULA is just RFC1918 all over again, right?</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>The key point here is that people are going=
 to assume is that ULA is like RFC1918 and we should carefully document all=
 the ways in which it isn&#39;t.</div><div style><br></div><blockquote clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;pad=
ding-left:1ex">

<div class=3D"im"><span style=3D"color:rgb(34,34,34)">So is this draft aimi=
ng for BCP status and therefore should only reflect best common practice?</=
span></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div style>I think documents coming =
out of v6ops should reflect scenarios where there is operational experience=
. I don&#39;t think v6ops is the place to say &quot;here&#39;s what we coul=
d build&quot;. It&#39;s the place to say &quot;here&#39;s what we&#39;ve bu=
ilt; here&#39;s what works, and here&#39;s what doesn&#39;t&quot;.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>As an example: we&#39;ve already discovered=
 one of the use cases in this draft (the &quot;use ULA as a pref64&quot;) i=
s not a use case after all, because it causes devices to prefer IPv4 transi=
tion technologies like 464xlat over NAT64. We didn&#39;t know this because =
nobody had actually tried to *operate a network* in such a use case. I happ=
ened to catch that one because I wrote and tested an implementation, but wh=
o knows if there are caveats in any of the others?</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>If as an operational group we publish guida=
nce to operators that doesn&#39;t work in the real world (like the pref64 c=
ase above), it will be embarrassing for us and wasteful of operators&#39; t=
ime. We should strive to do better than that.</div>

</div></div></div></div>

--001a11c29f6027702b04ddebd4a6--

From v6ops@globis.net  Thu May 30 02:24:50 2013
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From: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
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Cc: "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Sheng Jiang wrote:

> IP addresses are designed as topology locator, so that every packet can be routed to its network destination.
>
> However, even in IPv4 era, some network operators have mapped their IP address with certain semantic locally. These kind of mechanism explicitly express the semantic properties of every packet. Consequently, these network operators can inspect the properties of packets easily by mapping the addresses back to semantic.
>
> Network operators, who have large IPv6 address space, may also choose to embedded some semantics into IPv6 addresses by assigning additional significance to specific bits within the prefix. draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix documents a framework method that network operations may use their addresses with embedded semantics. These semantics bits are only meaningful within a single network, or group of interconnected networks which share a common addressing policy. Based on these embedded semantic bits in source/destination addresses, the network operators can accordingly treat network packets differently and efficiently.
>
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>
> Could you please review this draft and comments? It will help the document become more useful information to be shared.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Sheng
>  
I completely understand the desire for operators to have additional
semantics available for customized packet processing. Flow label now has
very limited properties optimised for load balancers. DSCP only has a
few bits (way less than the number of customers' policies). ACLs are
heavy to process at each hop....

But wouldn't this information be better off encoded as tags in one or
more hop-by-hop header options (that could be re-written on the fly),
rather than encoded in the IPv6 address space?

regards,
RayH

From jiangsheng@huawei.com  Thu May 30 02:58:50 2013
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
Thread-Topic: Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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From aservin@lacnic.net  Thu May 30 03:52:26 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] =?utf-8?q?Could_IPv6_address_be_more_than_locator=3F//dra?= =?utf-8?q?ft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03?=
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>>> Sheng
>>>
>>I completely understand the desire for operators to have additional
>>semantics available for customized packet processing. Flow label now 
>> has
>>very limited properties optimised for load balancers. DSCP only has a
>>few bits (way less than the number of customers' policies). ACLs are
>>heavy to process at each hop....
>>
>>But wouldn't this information be better off encoded as tags in one or
>>more hop-by-hop header options (that could be re-written on the fly),
>>rather than encoded in the IPv6 address space?
>
> The section 4.1 "Justifcation for Semantics with the IPv6 Prefix"
> describes the reasons.
>
> Users may easily change the setting of extension header in order to
> obtain undeserved priorities/privileges. Semantic prefix approach 
> does
> require the deployment of access control filters. The packets with 
> the
> noncompliance source addresses should be filtered. The prefix is
> delegated by the network. Therefore the network is able to detect any
> undesired modifications and filter the packet accordingly.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sheng
>
>>regards,
>>RayH

    I think the user can play the system too with IP addresses. It may 
be more complicated but it may be possible with the enough motivation to 
do so.

/as

From v6ops@globis.net  Thu May 30 04:11:53 2013
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Cc: "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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> Sheng Jiang <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>
> 30 May 2013 11:58
>>> IP addresses are designed as topology locator, so that every packet can be
>> routed to its network destination.
>>> However, even in IPv4 era, some network operators have mapped their IP
>> address with certain semantic locally. These kind of mechanism explicitly
>> express the semantic properties of every packet. Consequently, these network
>> operators can inspect the properties of packets easily by mapping the
>> addresses back to semantic.
>>> Network operators, who have large IPv6 address space, may also choose to
>> embedded some semantics into IPv6 addresses by assigning additional
>> significance to specific bits within the prefix.
>> draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix documents a framework method that
>> network operations may use their addresses with embedded semantics. These
>> semantics bits are only meaningful within a single network, or group of
>> interconnected networks which share a common addressing policy. Based on
>> these embedded semantic bits in source/destination addresses, the network
>> operators can accordingly treat network packets differently and efficiently.
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>>>
>>> Could you please review this draft and comments? It will help the document
>> become more useful information to be shared.
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Sheng
>>>
>> I completely understand the desire for operators to have additional
>> semantics available for customized packet processing. Flow label now has
>> very limited properties optimised for load balancers. DSCP only has a
>> few bits (way less than the number of customers' policies). ACLs are
>> heavy to process at each hop....
>>
>> But wouldn't this information be better off encoded as tags in one or
>> more hop-by-hop header options (that could be re-written on the fly),
>> rather than encoded in the IPv6 address space?
>
> The section 4.1 "Justifcation for Semantics with the IPv6 Prefix" describes the reasons.
>
> Users may easily change the setting of extension header in order to obtain undeserved priorities/privileges. Semantic prefix approach does require the deployment of access control filters. The packets with the noncompliance source addresses should be filtered. The prefix is delegated by the network. Therefore the network is able to detect any undesired modifications and filter the packet accordingly.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sheng
>
>
I don't buy your justification. Whether an operator filters on
authorised address range or re-writes/filters an unauthorised hop-by-hop
tag is effectively the same IMHO. We have exactly the same issues of
potential theft of service with DSCP today, and the solution is equally
simple: DSCP markdown at the ingress port.

regards,
RayH

From arturo.servin@gmail.com  Thu May 30 05:46:21 2013
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Cc: draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org, v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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>>> Yes. We will do so in the future version.
>>
>>Good, and I think it's important to do so. George and Lorenzo's 
>> comments are
>>good starting points for that section. The potential 
>> privacy/information
>>leakage aspect is also worth capturing, should those addresses be 
>> seen
>>outside the organisation.
>
> Thanks, Tim. The purpose of this document is not recommend or propose
> a good architecture. It is to document something that is going to
> exist and analyze it. The pitfalls is very important for a neutral
> analysis
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sheng

Sheng,

  Yes please do this. To me it now it reads more like "you can do this,
we recommend you to do it" when it should say "you can do this, it is
bad for this, it is good for this" and even you could include something
like "we do not recommend you do it but if you want to shoot you in the
foot you are free to do so."

/as

From jmh@joelhalpern.com  Thu May 30 08:17:42 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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While it is true that any operator can do whatever they want, this 
proposal is architecturally a bad way to achieve the kind of goals you 
outline.
So I would oppose publishing even an informational RFC on how one might 
do this.

As an example of the problems with this, you suggested that allocations 
to enterprise would not change with this approach.  That the enterprise 
would receive a certain semantic, and would be allocated a certain /48 
to match that.  While this sounds attractive and harmless:
1) It is extremely unlike that a customer will fall into a single 
"semantic" with any useful definition of semantic
2) You have argued that you can not use DSCP because they are not fine 
enough grained.  This means that you want to increase the routing 
complexity by more than a factor of 64, which seems to be a VERY bad 
idea for any operator infrastructure.

So even from a simple analysis, this seems somewhere between useless and 
extremely dangerous.

Yours,
Joel M. Halpern

On 5/30/2013 3:00 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote:
...
> Hi, Tim,
>
> It is exactly what the draft document. These semantics is only meaningful locally within the assigning provider network. It may only be interpretation between agreeing providers.
>
> Any efforts to add global or generic semantics to IP address is overload the IP architecture and it bad direction, I agree.
>
>> I think people will do this type of thing, so an Informational document
>> discussing the pros and cons, and how semantics can be used, is probably a
>> good thing.  Perhaps a "Potential Pitfalls" type section after the "Potential
>> Benefits" section would balance the document a little better?
>
> Yes. We will do so in the future version.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Sheng
...

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Cc: "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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	Probably this could be a good opportunity to publish a document "do not
do this".

	
/as

	

	

On 5/30/13 12:17 PM, Joel M. Halpern wrote:
> While it is true that any operator can do whatever they want, this
> proposal is architecturally a bad way to achieve the kind of goals you
> outline.
> So I would oppose publishing even an informational RFC on how one might
> do this.
> 
> As an example of the problems with this, you suggested that allocations
> to enterprise would not change with this approach.  That the enterprise
> would receive a certain semantic, and would be allocated a certain /48
> to match that.  While this sounds attractive and harmless:
> 1) It is extremely unlike that a customer will fall into a single
> "semantic" with any useful definition of semantic
> 2) You have argued that you can not use DSCP because they are not fine
> enough grained.  This means that you want to increase the routing
> complexity by more than a factor of 64, which seems to be a VERY bad
> idea for any operator infrastructure.
> 
> So even from a simple analysis, this seems somewhere between useless and
> extremely dangerous.
> 
> Yours,
> Joel M. Halpern
> 
> On 5/30/2013 3:00 AM, Sheng Jiang wrote:
> ...
>> Hi, Tim,
>>
>> It is exactly what the draft document. These semantics is only
>> meaningful locally within the assigning provider network. It may only
>> be interpretation between agreeing providers.
>>
>> Any efforts to add global or generic semantics to IP address is
>> overload the IP architecture and it bad direction, I agree.
>>
>>> I think people will do this type of thing, so an Informational document
>>> discussing the pros and cons, and how semantics can be used, is
>>> probably a
>>> good thing.  Perhaps a "Potential Pitfalls" type section after the
>>> "Potential
>>> Benefits" section would balance the document a little better?
>>
>> Yes. We will do so in the future version.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Sheng
> ...
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 11:38:40 -0400
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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Sent from my iPad

On May 30, 2013, at 4:11 AM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au> wrote:

>> ________________________________
>> From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
>> To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>=20
>> Cc: "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ie=
tf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>=20
>> Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2013 4:41 PM
>> Subject: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> News at 11:
>>=20
>>=20
>> 1. ULAs leak.
>>=20
>> 2. People assign ULAs by hand.
>>=20
>=20
> In the early news, not really a new problem.
>=20
> RFC1918 and 100.64/10 leak too, and what is worse, I've seen people intent=
ionally expose RFC1918s to other networks - the largest carrier here in .au u=
ses RFC1918 addresses for their wholesale ADSL L2TP LACs (from memory, at le=
ast 20 to 30, spread across multiple /16s within 172.16/12) and then expect t=
heir many wholesale ADSL customers' to just accept those addresses and make t=
hem work within their own networks, despite their own, quite legitimate inte=
rnal use of 172.16/12 (fortunately VRFs/VPNs can be used to isolate that add=
ress space from your own). So we can't pretend that RFC1918s have been perfe=
ctly used, and therefore ULAs being less private than intended is going to b=
e new problem and experience. At least properly formed ULAs are unlikely to c=
onflict with other network's ones, even if the other network has used fd00::=
/8, and if the two interconnecting parties have both been lazy and used fd00=
::/8, they'll both be victims of theirs and the other

Actually, as I understand it, part of the reason for making ULA different fr=
om RFC-1918 and wasting such a large amount of address space on said boondog=
gle was to address exactly the situation you describe and allow said telecom=
 to have IPv6 addresses that didn't conflict with their wholesale customers.=
 Thus, while the above scenario is problematic in RFC-1918 IPv4 land, it's s=
upposed to be one of the intended uses of ULA as I understand it.

Of course, GUA avoids these issues altogether, but apparently that's not goo=
d enough for reasons passing understanding.

> party's laziness (which they'll be used to, since they've probably experie=
nced it with RFC1918). They'll probably resort to NPTv6 to fix it, because t=
hat is what they're used to, rather than using IPv6's address aging mechanis=
ms to renumber to a properly formed ULA. Good luck to them, as long as it do=
esn't effect the rest of us.

Ah, but eventually, it will.

Owen

>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> Yes, both of these a violation of IETF guidance. I don't think that matte=
rs much, though - while we can always claim that the implementer/operator is=
 "holding it wrong", we should be careful that what we design/standardize is=
 hard to misconfigure and possibly robust in the face of misconfiguration. S=
ubtle nuances like "these addresses are global scope, but not globally routa=
ble" tend to get lost very easily.
>>=20
>=20
> I think recommending against ULAs is just going to result in people steali=
ng other address spaces for devices that don't need global reachability - li=
ke 2001:db8::/32, or unused global address space (as we saw with 1/8, 5/8 an=
d other IPv4 prefixes).

I don't think it was recommending against the use of RFC-1918 that led to th=
e above hijackings.

> I think global address space comes with and implies a default assumption o=
f global reachability, and you'll therefore have to actively take measures t=
o ensure they don't provide global reachability if you don't want it. Link-l=
ocals don't cut it because they're not routable. The need ULAs fulfils is th=
e gap in between global space and link-locals, and the one which RFC1918 gen=
erally fulfils in IPv4, except that the likelyhood of address space collisio=
n is reduced.

99.99+% of RFC-1918 is to provide for GUA conservation through overloaded NA=
T.

That being not only unnecessary, but very undesirable in IPv6...

As to a "default assumption of global reachability", this is a very harmful a=
nd very incorrect assumption. IPv6 GUA provides for global uniqueness. It ma=
y or may not be globally routable and even if routed may or may not be reach=
able.

> So is this draft aiming for BCP status and therefore should only reflect b=
est common practice? If not, I think it is reasonable to present scenarios w=
here ULAs could be useful. We've got a lot of experience with private addres=
s spaces from IPv4 (the Deprecating Site Local Addresses RFC3879 is also a p=
retty complete list of the problems with RFC1918 addresses), so the only rea=
l difference is scenarios where concurrent global and private address spaces=
 could be useful. In some cases, they'll just be more capable versions of wh=
at we've already doing in IPv4 e.g. private addressed loopbacks on routers, g=
lobal addresses on the links, in a ULA environment you would add ULAs to the=
 links too, which could make troubleshooting and other OAM less dependent on=
 the global address space.

You say that as if dependency on the global address space is a bad thing.

IMNSHO, dependency on non-global addresses is where things get unnecessarily=
 complicated.

Owen


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Sent from my iPad

On May 30, 2013, at 2:34 AM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:

> Hi, Owen,
>=20
> These embedded semantics are very different from End System Identifier. Th=
e end system identifier functions was problem because it violents the layer m=
odel. Many APPs or transport layer use IP address as their identifier. And t=
he end system identifier breaks in at least two scenarios: when end devices c=
hange the access points or when IP layer translation (NAT44 or NAT64) happen=
s.

I'm not sure how that's relevant to this discussion.

It does not change the fact that overloading semantics onto addresses is an i=
nherently bad idea.

> The proposed embedded semantics is still layer 3. They are used for router=
's packet processing. These embedded semantics is only meaningful locally wi=
thin ISP owner network. After leaving the ISP network, IP addresses are only=
 locator, nothing more. The bottom line is a network operator can choose to e=
mbedded some semantics into IPv6 addresses assignment. We, as IETF, may not e=
ncourage such usage, but should document it and may give some guidance or an=
alysis of it.

The problem with overloading semantics can occur regardless of whether or no=
t you cross layer boundaries.

You are creating artificial partitions of address space which creates the po=
ssibility of filling up one partition while space remains in another. This m=
ay create a situation where you are unable to get more space from the RIR or=
 upstream due to inefficient utilization and you are then forced to violate y=
our semantic boundaries just to keep the network running. Unfortunately, sin=
ce you've cultivated all these semantic assumptions in peoples heads (if not=
 running code), now you've got additional problems which last a very long ti=
me and don't necessarily appear right away.

It's a really great way to install time bombs in to operational systems. I d=
o not recommend it.

Owen

>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Sheng
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Owen DeLong [mailto:owen@delong.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 7:02 AM
>> To: Sheng Jiang
>> Cc: <v6ops@ietf.org>; ipv6@ietf.org;
>> draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than
>> locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>>=20
>> Personally, I think this is an inherently bad idea.
>>=20
>> IP addresses need less overloading of semantics, not more.
>>=20
>> We already use IP addresses for two conflicting purposes=E2=80=A6 Topolog=
y locator
>> and End System Identifier.
>>=20
>> This overloading is at the heart of our current scaling issues with respe=
ct to
>> the routing table. While these issues are currently less critical than th=
ey have
>> been in the past and will likely get quite a bit less critical in IPv6, t=
hat is only
>> because we have given up a fair amount of functionality to preserve
>> scalability in this regard.
>>=20
>> If we did not have this overloading, then an entity could obtain a set of=

>> end-system identifiers and keep them throughout their lifetime, regardles=
s of
>> topological changes. Today, where the addresses are overloaded with both
>> semantics, we either have to force most entities to change their numbers
>> when they change topology or we face unsustainable growth in the routing
>> tables.
>>=20
>> The idea of adding more semantics to addressing rather than seeking to
>> reduce this overloading seems a step in the wrong direction, IMHO.
>>=20
>> Owen
>>=20
>> On May 29, 2013, at 12:06 AM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
>> wrote:
>>=20
>>> IP addresses are designed as topology locator, so that every packet can b=
e
>> routed to its network destination.
>>>=20
>>> However, even in IPv4 era, some network operators have mapped their IP
>> address with certain semantic locally. These kind of mechanism explicitly=

>> express the semantic properties of every packet. Consequently, these netw=
ork
>> operators can inspect the properties of packets easily by mapping the
>> addresses back to semantic.
>>>=20
>>> Network operators, who have large IPv6 address space, may also choose to=

>> embedded some semantics into IPv6 addresses by assigning additional
>> significance to specific bits within the prefix.
>> draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix documents a framework method that
>> network operations may use their addresses with embedded semantics. These=

>> semantics bits are only meaningful within a single network, or group of
>> interconnected networks which share a common addressing policy. Based on
>> these embedded semantic bits in source/destination addresses, the network=

>> operators can accordingly treat network packets differently and efficient=
ly.
>>>=20
>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>>>=20
>>> Could you please review this draft and comments? It will help the docume=
nt
>> become more useful information to be shared.
>>>=20
>>> Best regards,
>>>=20
>>> Sheng
>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:28 AM
>>>> To: Qiong Sun; Ian Farrer; Sheng Jiang; Boyang
>>>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>>>> draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03.txt
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> A new version of I-D, draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03.txt
>>>> has been successfully submitted by Sheng Jiang and posted to the
>>>> IETF repository.
>>>>=20
>>>> Filename:     draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix
>>>> Revision:     03
>>>> Title:         A Framework for Semantic IPv6 Prefix
>>>> Creation date:     2013-05-28
>>>> Group:         Individual Submission
>>>> Number of pages: 19
>>>> URL:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03.=
txt
>>>> Status:
>>>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix
>>>> Htmlized:
>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>>>> Diff:
>>>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03=

>>>>=20
>>>> Abstract:
>>>> This document describes a framework method that network operations
>>>> may use their addresses.  Network operators, who have large IPv6
>>>> address space, may choose to embedded some semantics into IPv6
>>>> addresses by assigning additional significance to specific bits
>>>> within the prefix.  By embedded semantics into IPv6 prefixes, the
>>>> semantics of packets can be inspected easily.  Routers and other
>>>> intermediary devices can easily apply relevant policies as required.
>>>> Packet-level differentiation can also enable flow-level and user-
>>>> level differentiation.  Consequently, the network operators can
>>>> accordingly treat network packets differently and efficiently.  The
>>>> management and maintenance of networks can be much simpler.
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>> The IETF Secretariat
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20

From owen@delong.com  Thu May 30 09:14:16 2013
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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 12:08:28 -0400
To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
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Cc: "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>, "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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> >>However, it is not necessary as worse as 2^N times. For example, it ther=
e are 2 bits to separate different use types (say 4 different types), it act=
ually only separate use address spaces into four different spaces. It does n=
ot limit the address space to be 1/4 of original space.
>=20
> How is that different from saying "by adding two bits of semantics in the p=
refix, the network will use 4 times the address space than it would otherwis=
e"?
>=20
> No. This is very different. Putting the example into numbers may be more i=
ntuitionistic. Say an ISP has 4 million subscribers, it needs 4 million /56 (=
assuming every user get a /56). By separating them into 4 different types, t=
he address consumption is still 4 million /56 if the separation is exactly e=
ven. However, the more
>=20
Not a great assumption... They should need 4 million or more /48s since ever=
y subscriber is at least one end site and every subscriber end site should r=
eceive a /48.

Assuming that you will get 4 million subscribers that conveniently divide in=
to buckets of 1 million per bucket is absurd. More likely, you'll get 500,00=
0, 750,000, 2,000,000, and 750,000, or other similarly skewed distribution. I=
t might even be 3,500,000, 125,000, 125,000, 250,000.
> address may need when the separation is not even. For example, if the bigg=
est user type has 2 million users, then the total address space may become 8=
 million /56 =E2=80=93 two times of original. It comes from align. The incre=
ased semantics bit are also increasing the address space although not increa=
sing linearly. So, at the end, it is not totally waste.
>=20
If you get extraordinarily lucky, it's no waste. Otherwise, it's at least 50=
% waste and can easily reach 75% waste (4x space utilization, as Lorenzo sai=
d).

For example, if you have 4,000,000 end sites and you get as little as 2,097,=
153 subscribers in one of the buckets, you have to go to 4x your address spa=
ce to preserve the semantics.

Owen

> Best regards,
>=20
> Sheng
>=20
> From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]=20
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:19 PM
> To: Sheng Jiang
> Cc: Tim Chown; Owen DeLong; <v6ops@ietf.org>; draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-p=
refix@tools.ietf.org; ipv6@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang=
-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>=20
> =20
>=20
> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote=
:
>=20
> Yes, there is no intension to change ARIN=E2=80=99s policy at all. ARIN sh=
ould remain the current policy of assign IPv6 address block. But the network=
 providers, who has already get address block, can choose to use the address=
es with certain semantics. And no one, including ARIN can stop this.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Agreed, but even for network providers that already have blocks, this will=
 be an issue if they ever need another block. But I do think you should writ=
e this in the draft.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> However, it is not necessary as worse as 2^N times. For example, it there a=
re 2 bits to separate different use types (say 4 different types), it actual=
ly only separate use address spaces into four different spaces. It does not l=
imit the address space to be 1/4 of original space.
>=20
> =20
>=20
> How is that different from saying "by adding two bits of semantics in the p=
refix, the network will use 4 times the address space than it would otherwis=
e"?

--Apple-Mail-2400563C-E085-4E7B-9E6A-8DBA89C6A4F4
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset=utf-8
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<html><head><meta http-equiv=3D"content-type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3D=
utf-8"></head><body dir=3D"auto"><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D=
"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-m=
argin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-f=
amily:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">&gt;&gt;Howe=
ver, it is not necessary as worse as 2^N times. For example, it there are 2 b=
its
 to separate different use types (say 4 different types), it actually only s=
eparate use address spaces into four different spaces. It does not limit the=
 address space to be 1/4 of original space.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">How is that different from sayin=
g "by adding two bits of semantics in the prefix, the network will use 4 tim=
es the address space than it would otherwise"?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">No. This is very different.=
 Putting the example into numbers may be more intuitionistic.
 Say an ISP has 4 million subscribers, it needs 4 million /56 (assuming ever=
y user get a /56). By separating them into 4 different types, the address co=
nsumption is still 4 million /56 if the separation is exactly even. However,=
 the more</span></p></div></div></blockquote><div>Not a great assumption... T=
hey should need 4 million or more /48s since every subscriber is at least on=
e end site and every subscriber end site should receive a /48.</div><div><br=
></div><div>Assuming that you will get 4 million subscribers that convenient=
ly divide into buckets of 1 million per bucket is absurd. More likely, you'l=
l get 500,000, 750,000, 2,000,000, and 750,000, or other similarly skewed di=
stribution. It might even be 3,500,000, 125,000, 125,000, 250,000.</div><blo=
ckquote type=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal=
" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang=3D=
"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans=
-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D"> address may need when
 the separation is not even. For example, if the biggest user type has 2 mil=
lion users, then the total address space may become 8 million /56 =E2=80=93 t=
wo times of original. It comes from align. The increased semantics bit are a=
lso increasing the address space although
 not increasing linearly. So, at the end, it is not totally waste.</span></p=
></div></div></blockquote><div>If you get extraordinarily lucky, it's no was=
te. Otherwise, it's at least 50% waste and can easily reach 75% waste (4x sp=
ace utilization, as Lorenzo said).</div><div><br></div><div>For example, if y=
ou have 4,000,000 end sites and you get as little as 2,097,153 subscribers i=
n one of the buckets, you have to go to 4x your address space to preserve th=
e semantics.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br></div><blockquote t=
ype=3D"cite"><div><div class=3D"WordSection1"><p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D=
"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" st=
yle=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quo=
t;;color:#1F497D"><o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Best regards,<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Sheng<o:p></o:p></span></p>=

<div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 4=
.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0=
cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fon=
t-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span la=
ng=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;=
sans-serif&quot;"> Lorenzo Colitti [<a href=3D"mailto:lorenzo@google.com">ma=
ilto:lorenzo@google.com</a>]
<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, May 30, 2013 3:19 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Sheng Jiang<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Tim Chown; Owen DeLong; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6o=
ps@ietf.org</a>&gt;; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@too=
ls.ietf.org">draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D=
"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-=
jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:13 PM,=
 Sheng Jiang &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">=
jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&gt; wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm=
 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">Yes, there is no intension t=
o change ARIN=E2=80=99s policy at all. ARIN should remain the current
 policy of assign IPv6 address block. But the network providers, who has alr=
eady get address block, can choose to use the addresses with certain semanti=
cs. And no one, including ARIN can stop this.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:=
p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">Agreed, but even for network pro=
viders that already have blocks, this will be an issue if they ever need ano=
ther block. But I do think you should write this in the draft.<o:p></o:p></s=
pan></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
<blockquote style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid #CCCCCC 1.0pt;padding:0cm=
 0cm 0cm 6.0pt;margin-left:4.8pt;margin-right:0cm">
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal" style=3D"mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-al=
t:auto"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-family:&quot;Cal=
ibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1F497D">However, it is not necessar=
y as worse as 2^N times. For example, it there are 2 bits
 to separate different use types (say 4 different types), it actually only s=
eparate use address spaces into four different spaces. It does not limit the=
 address space to be 1/4 of original space.</span><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>=
</o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p>
</div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">How is that different from sayin=
g "by adding two bits of semantics in the prefix, the network will use 4 tim=
es the address space than it would otherwise"?<o:p></o:p></span></p>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>


</div></blockquote></body></html>=

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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC98DAE@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com>	<03680813-07D9-459B-A229-FA974C9A4B9E@ecs.soton.ac.uk>	<8E492087-390E-4F8E-8078-1D0E63849243@delong.com>	<EMEW3|f3c1b4957f182cbee8e02a76a09ead4dp4Y7Ye03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|03680813-07D9-459B-A229-FA974C9A4B9E@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <CAKD1Yr0E5OUsphjhEaaMTjVarSGNdPEx6e1RyKDs5A=bkHGvBg@mail.gmail.com>
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Cc: "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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On 5/29/13 11:47 PM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:
> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 3:33 PM, Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk 
> <mailto:tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>> wrote:
>
>     I agree. That said, an ISP, enterprise or group of organisations
>     can follow whatever semantics they wish within their own borders.
>
>
> As long as the RIRs are willing to give them enough address space to 
> do so.
>
> If an ISP requested an IPv6 /10 from ARIN because they wanted to give 
> every customer a /48 and wanted to geocode the customer's subscriber 
> ID into the /48, then ARIN would do well to say, "no, sorry, that 
> doesn't make sense".
>
> Lest someone not realize this, the draft should clearly state that 
> embedding N bits of semantics into IPv6 addresses causes the network 
> to use 2^N times the address space that it normally would.
>
pretty much what I said at the mic... If this ever shows up in a 
jsutification for a /18 or /24 vs a  /26 at an RIR that's a really bad 
thing imho.
> IMO I think it should also state that although it is an IETF RFC, this 
> model is not necessarily a recommended model, and that RIRs are not 
> obliged to accept this type of address allocation as a justification 
> for obtaining larger address blocks than they would normally be able 
> to obtain.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


From Ted.Lemon@nominum.com  Thu May 30 12:29:15 2013
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From: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
Thread-Index: AQHOXVDE6lnGpdObXU2opXguZDBozpkekp0A
Date: Thu, 30 May 2013 19:29:07 +0000
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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC98DAE@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <03680813-07D9-459B-A229-FA974C9A4B9E@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8E492087-390E-4F8E-8078-1D0E63849243@delong.com> <EMEW3|f3c1b4957f182cbee8e02a76a09ead4dp4Y7Ye03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|03680813-07D9-459B-A229-FA974C9A4B9E@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <CAKD1Yr0E5OUsphjhEaaMTjVarSGNdPEx6e1RyKDs5A=bkHGvBg@mail.gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC992D2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr1c+-S02oWF1GjTdu-Vatee-EgXLKr=2=xdtYOtUubsYQ@mail.gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC99354@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <B001C1A1-DCF6-43AD-A792-56A58661E924@delong.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than	locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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On May 30, 2013, at 12:08 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com<mailto:owen@delo=
ng.com>> wrote:
Not a great assumption... They should need 4 million or more /48s since eve=
ry subscriber is at least one end site and every subscriber end site should=
 receive a /48.

I am not in love with using bits from prefixes as semantic tags.   However,=
 having said that, I think it's a bit ironic that you're talking about wast=
ing space with semantic bits, on the one hand, and talking about the need f=
or a /48 in every home on the other.   It would be perfectly reasonable for=
 the ISP to specify that some of the bits in the /48 have semantic meaning,=
 for example, and given that we think it's okay to give the home network a =
/48, we are hardly in a position to quibble about how the bits in that /48 =
are used.


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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; ">
<div>
<div>On May 30, 2013, at 12:08 PM, Owen DeLong &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:owen@d=
elong.com">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div style=3D"font-family: Optima; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; f=
ont-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-heig=
ht: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-tr=
ansform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-t=
ext-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
Not a great assumption... They should need 4 million or more /48s since eve=
ry subscriber is at least one end site and every subscriber end site should=
 receive a /48.</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<div>I am not in love with using bits from prefixes as semantic tags. &nbsp=
; However, having said that, I think it's a bit ironic that you're talking =
about wasting space with semantic bits, on the one hand, and talking about =
the need for a /48 in every home on the
 other. &nbsp; It would be perfectly reasonable for the ISP to specify that=
 some of the bits in the /48 have semantic meaning, for example, and given =
that we think it's okay to give the home network a /48, we are hardly in a =
position to quibble about how the bits
 in that /48 are used.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</body>
</html>

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From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Thu May 30 13:37:39 2013
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 08:37:44 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: [v6ops] draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop?
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Hi,

Is there any plan to refresh and publish draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop?

It's useful information.

Regards
   Brian



From markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au  Thu May 30 14:23:25 2013
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From: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>
To: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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=0A>________________________________=0A> From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@goo=
gle.com>=0A>To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au> =0A>Cc: "v6ops@ietf.=
org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>; "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools=
.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org> =0A>=
Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2013 7:07 PM=0A>Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example =
of why we need to careful about ULAs=0A> =0A>=0A>=0A>On Thu, May 30, 2013 a=
t 5:11 PM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au> wrote:=0A>In the early ne=
ws, not really a new problem.=0A>>=0A>=0A>=0A>The part where an RFC asserts=
 says that we can generate globally unique addresses with no global coordin=
ation is a new problem. Yes, in theory it works, but in practice it doesn't=
, because everyone ends up using fd00:: - because that's the way it worked =
in IPv4, and ULA is just RFC1918 all over again, right?=0A>=0A=0AI don't ag=
ree with trying to create a registry for the non-centrally assigned ULAs (b=
ecause I think those people probably think they now own that prefix), howev=
er here is quite a list to show that a lot of people from a variety of orga=
nisations get that ULAs aren't set to fd00::/8=0A=0Ahttp://www.sixxs.net/to=
ols/grh/ula/list/=0A=0A=0A>=0A>The key point here is that people are going =
to assume is that ULA is like RFC1918 and we should carefully document all =
the ways in which it isn't.=0A>=0A=0AAgree with documenting it. Site-locals=
 were "fd00::". The site-local deprecation RFC is pretty much the inverse o=
f all the ways ULAs aren't site-locals and RFC1918s.=0A=0A>=0A>So is this d=
raft aiming for BCP status and therefore should only reflect best common pr=
actice?=0A>=0A>=0A>I think documents coming out of v6ops should reflect sce=
narios where there is operational experience. I don't think v6ops is the pl=
ace to say "here's what we could build". It's the place to say "here's what=
 we've built; here's what works, and here's what doesn't".=0A>=0A>=0A=0A>As=
 an example: we've already discovered one of the use cases in this draft (t=
he "use ULA as a pref64") is not a use case after all, because it causes de=
vices to prefer IPv4 transition technologies like 464xlat over NAT64. We di=
dn't know this because nobody had actually tried to *operate a network* in =
such a use case. I happened to catch that one because I wrote and tested an=
 implementation, but who knows if there are caveats in any of the others?=
=0A>=0A>=0A>If as an operational group we publish guidance to operators tha=
t doesn't work in the real world (like the pref64 case above), it will be e=
mbarrassing for us and wasteful of operators' time. We should strive to do =
better than that.=0A>=0A>=0A=0AOk. So then a follow up question is how to p=
rovide perhaps more tutorial oriented information? RFCs, quite reasonably, =
provide enough information to justify what is=A0proposed, and usually one u=
se case, but not all of them. That may not be enough information for more o=
f a novice fully understand the problem that is being solved, the variety o=
f opportunities to use it, and the pros and cons of the use of what is prop=
osed in those scenarios. I haven't thought v6ops was just a place to docume=
nt what has been done, but rather to document any topics related to operati=
ons, including advice and more information on how things invented here and =
in other IPv6 working groups could be used.=0A=0ARegards,=0AMark.

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From: Tom Taylor <tom.taylor.stds@gmail.com>
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Cc: IPv6 Operations <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop?
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Yes, the various authors have been taking a whack at it. I imagine we'll 
have an update out shortly.

On 30/05/2013 4:37 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Is there any plan to refresh and publish draft-taylor-v6ops-fragdrop?
>
> It's useful information.
>
> Regards
>     Brian
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On 30/05/2013 20:11, Mark Smith wrote:
>> ________________________________
>> From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
>> To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org> 
>> Cc: "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org> 
>> Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2013 4:41 PM
>> Subject: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
>>
>>
>>
>> News at 11:
>>
>>
>> 1. ULAs leak.
>>
>> 2. People assign ULAs by hand.
>>
> 
> In the early news, not really a new problem.
> 
> RFC1918 and 100.64/10 leak too, 

In traceroutes, link-locals sometimes leak too.

All these are confusing and make the traceroute hard to interpret,
but they don't actually *matter*. What matters is if they leak in
actual traffic such as attempted TCP connections. Does that happen?

   Brian

>  and what is worse, I've seen people intentionally expose RFC1918s to other networks - the largest carrier here in .au uses RFC1918 addresses for their wholesale ADSL L2TP LACs (from memory, at least 20 to 30, spread across multiple /16s within 172.16/12) and then expect their many wholesale ADSL customers' to just accept those addresses and make them work within their own networks, despite their own, quite legitimate internal use of 172.16/12 (fortunately VRFs/VPNs can be used to isolate that address space from your own). So we can't pretend that RFC1918s have been perfectly used, and therefore ULAs being less private than intended is going to be new problem and experience. At least properly formed ULAs are unlikely to conflict with other network's ones, even if the other network has used fd00::/8, and if the two interconnecting parties have both been lazy and used fd00::/8, they'll both be victims of theirs and the other
>  party's laziness (which they'll be used to, since they've probably experienced it with RFC1918). They'll probably resort to NPTv6 to fix it, because that is what they're used to, rather than using IPv6's address aging mechanisms to renumber to a properly formed ULA. Good luck to them, as long as it doesn't effect the rest of us.
> 
> 
> 
>> Yes, both of these a violation of IETF guidance. I don't think that matters much, though - while we can always claim that the implementer/operator is "holding it wrong", we should be careful that what we design/standardize is hard to misconfigure and possibly robust in the face of misconfiguration. Subtle nuances like "these addresses are global scope, but not globally routable" tend to get lost very easily.
>>
> 
> I think recommending against ULAs is just going to result in people stealing other address spaces for devices that don't need global reachability - like 2001:db8::/32, or unused global address space (as we saw with 1/8, 5/8 and other IPv4 prefixes).
> 
> I think global address space comes with and implies a default assumption of global reachability, and you'll therefore have to actively take measures to ensure they don't provide global reachability if you don't want it. Link-locals don't cut it because they're not routable. The need ULAs fulfils is the gap in between global space and link-locals, and the one which RFC1918 generally fulfils in IPv4, except that the likelyhood of address space collision is reduced.
> 
>> Of course, in the case of ULAs, there's not much that can be done about the design at this point, but we should make an effort to make it clear that the potential for misconfiguration exists and provide clear guidance on how not to misconfigure them.
>>
>>
> 
>> Personally, I think that providing said guidance is much more useful and important than enumerating scenarios that aren't widely, if at all, implemented, and I hope that the authors of draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations will agree.
>>
> 
> So is this draft aiming for BCP status and therefore should only reflect best common practice? If not, I think it is reasonable to present scenarios where ULAs could be useful. We've got a lot of experience with private address spaces from IPv4 (the Deprecating Site Local Addresses RFC3879 is also a pretty complete list of the problems with RFC1918 addresses), so the only real difference is scenarios where concurrent global and private address spaces could be useful. In some cases, they'll just be more capable versions of what we've already doing in IPv4 e.g. private addressed loopbacks on routers, global addresses on the links, in a ULA environment you would add ULAs to the links too, which could make troubleshooting and other OAM less dependent on the global address space.
> 
> Regards,
> Mark.
> 
>> Cheers,
>> Lorenzo
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@massar.ch>
>> Date: Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:59 AM
>> Subject: Usage of fd00::/8 on the Interwebz - something with filters and uRPF
>> To: ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de
>>
>>
>> ...
>>  4  2001:7f8:1::a500:3303:1 (2001:7f8:1::a500:3303:1)  20.755 ms  20.763 ms  20.784 ms
>>  5  fd00:3303::1 (fd00:3303::1)  22.010 ms  21.984 ms  21.986 ms
>>  6  2a02:120c:1051:d010::1 (2a02:120c:1051:d010::1)  17.806 ms  17.889 ms  17.842 ms
>>  7  2a02:120c:1051:d010::1 (2a02:120c:1051:d010::1)  18.720 ms  18.593 ms  18.617 ms
>> ...
>>
>> Hmmmm fd00::/8, that really should never ever be visible on the Internet, being Unique *LOCAL* Addresses.
>> And it does not look like they applied the randomness bit for picking a prefix either.
>> You would also almost think that a /28 is more than enough address space to put a few router loopbacks in.
>>
>> It is apparently time for people to start checking their filters again because it seems that these packets leak into other ASNs too...
>>
>> More generally, do recheck your network for BCP38 compliance, please do apply it and require your peers to do the same!
>>
>> Greets,
>>  Jeroen
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>
>>
>>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> 

From jeroen@massar.ch  Thu May 30 15:07:53 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On 2013-05-30 14:45, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
[..]
>> In the early news, not really a new problem.
>>
>> RFC1918 and 100.64/10 leak too, 
> 
> In traceroutes, link-locals sometimes leak too.

I have never come across that; except maybe when tracerouting to a
link-local, and then, that would only be one hop anyway.

If you know how to replicate it, I am very interested in a packet dump
or what is involved to cause it.

> All these are confusing and make the traceroute hard to interpret,
> but they don't actually *matter*. What matters is if they leak in
> actual traffic such as attempted TCP connections. Does that happen?

One should only see a link-local when:
 - the source packet is link-local
 - the destination host only has a link-local and replies (TTL or so)

But that should never cross more than one (1) hop as link-locals should
not be forwarded.

Greets,
 Jeroen


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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On 5/30/13 2:45 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> On 30/05/2013 20:11, Mark Smith wrote:
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
>>> To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>
>>> Cc: "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draf=
t-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
>>> Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2013 4:41 PM
>>> Subject: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> News at 11:
>>>
>>>
>>> 1. ULAs leak.
>>>
>>> 2. People assign ULAs by hand.
>>>
>> In the early news, not really a new problem.
>>
>> RFC1918 and 100.64/10 leak too,
> In traceroutes, link-locals sometimes leak too.
>
> All these are confusing and make the traceroute hard to interpret,
> but they don't actually *matter*. What matters is if they leak in
> actual traffic such as attempted TCP connections. Does that happen?
there's leaking and then there's leaking...

if nobody accepts the route bi-directional leakage is hard... and even=20
loose rpf checks will discard traffic from sources like that

real providers on the internet are still accepting 100.100.0.0/24=20
<http://bgp.he.net/net/100.100.0.0/24>from as4847  so that's an example=20
of the other kind.
>     Brian
>
>>   and what is worse, I've seen people intentionally expose RFC1918s to=
 other networks - the largest carrier here in .au uses RFC1918 addresses =
for their wholesale ADSL L2TP LACs (from memory, at least 20 to 30, sprea=
d across multiple /16s within 172.16/12) and then expect their many whole=
sale ADSL customers' to just accept those addresses and make them work wi=
thin their own networks, despite their own, quite legitimate internal use=
 of 172.16/12 (fortunately VRFs/VPNs can be used to isolate that address =
space from your own). So we can't pretend that RFC1918s have been perfect=
ly used, and therefore ULAs being less private than intended is going to =
be new problem and experience. At least properly formed ULAs are unlikely=
 to conflict with other network's ones, even if the other network has use=
d fd00::/8, and if the two interconnecting parties have both been lazy an=
d used fd00::/8, they'll both be victims of theirs and the other
>>   party's laziness (which they'll be used to, since they've probably e=
xperienced it with RFC1918). They'll probably resort to NPTv6 to fix it, =
because that is what they're used to, rather than using IPv6's address ag=
ing mechanisms to renumber to a properly formed ULA. Good luck to them, a=
s long as it doesn't effect the rest of us.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Yes, both of these a violation of IETF guidance. I don't think that m=
atters much, though - while we can always claim that the implementer/oper=
ator is "holding it wrong", we should be careful that what we design/stan=
dardize is hard to misconfigure and possibly robust in the face of miscon=
figuration. Subtle nuances like "these addresses are global scope, but no=
t globally routable" tend to get lost very easily.
>>>
>> I think recommending against ULAs is just going to result in people st=
ealing other address spaces for devices that don't need global reachabili=
ty - like 2001:db8::/32, or unused global address space (as we saw with 1=
/8, 5/8 and other IPv4 prefixes).
>>
>> I think global address space comes with and implies a default assumpti=
on of global reachability, and you'll therefore have to actively take mea=
sures to ensure they don't provide global reachability if you don't want =
it. Link-locals don't cut it because they're not routable. The need ULAs =
fulfils is the gap in between global space and link-locals, and the one w=
hich RFC1918 generally fulfils in IPv4, except that the likelyhood of add=
ress space collision is reduced.
>>
>>> Of course, in the case of ULAs, there's not much that can be done abo=
ut the design at this point, but we should make an effort to make it clea=
r that the potential for misconfiguration exists and provide clear guidan=
ce on how not to misconfigure them.
>>>
>>>
>>> Personally, I think that providing said guidance is much more useful =
and important than enumerating scenarios that aren't widely, if at all, i=
mplemented, and I hope that the authors of draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-rec=
ommendations will agree.
>>>
>> So is this draft aiming for BCP status and therefore should only refle=
ct best common practice? If not, I think it is reasonable to present scen=
arios where ULAs could be useful. We've got a lot of experience with priv=
ate address spaces from IPv4 (the Deprecating Site Local Addresses RFC387=
9 is also a pretty complete list of the problems with RFC1918 addresses),=
 so the only real difference is scenarios where concurrent global and pri=
vate address spaces could be useful. In some cases, they'll just be more =
capable versions of what we've already doing in IPv4 e.g. private address=
ed loopbacks on routers, global addresses on the links, in a ULA environm=
ent you would add ULAs to the links too, which could make troubleshooting=
 and other OAM less dependent on the global address space.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Mark.
>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Lorenzo
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@massar.ch>
>>> Date: Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:59 AM
>>> Subject: Usage of fd00::/8 on the Interwebz - something with filters =
and uRPF
>>> To: ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de
>>>
>>>
>>> ...
>>>   4  2001:7f8:1::a500:3303:1 (2001:7f8:1::a500:3303:1)  20.755 ms  20=
=2E763 ms  20.784 ms
>>>   5  fd00:3303::1 (fd00:3303::1)  22.010 ms  21.984 ms  21.986 ms
>>>   6  2a02:120c:1051:d010::1 (2a02:120c:1051:d010::1)  17.806 ms  17.8=
89 ms  17.842 ms
>>>   7  2a02:120c:1051:d010::1 (2a02:120c:1051:d010::1)  18.720 ms  18.5=
93 ms  18.617 ms
>>> ...
>>>
>>> Hmmmm fd00::/8, that really should never ever be visible on the Inter=
net, being Unique *LOCAL* Addresses.
>>> And it does not look like they applied the randomness bit for picking=
 a prefix either.
>>> You would also almost think that a /28 is more than enough address sp=
ace to put a few router loopbacks in.
>>>
>>> It is apparently time for people to start checking their filters agai=
n because it seems that these packets leak into other ASNs too...
>>>
>>> More generally, do recheck your network for BCP38 compliance, please =
do apply it and require your peers to do the same!
>>>
>>> Greets,
>>>   Jeroen
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>



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From: Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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In message <1369948995.76791.YahooMailNeo@web142505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, Mark S
mith writes:
> 
> >Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>; "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-reco=
> mmendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@too=
> ls.ietf.org> =
> 
> >Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2013 7:07 PM
> >Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
> > =
> 
> >
> >
> >On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au> wr=
> ote:
> >In the early news, not really a new problem.
> >>
> >
> >
> >The part where an RFC asserts says that we can generate globally unique ad=
> dresses with no global coordination is a new problem. Yes, in theory it wor=
> ks, but in practice it doesn't, because everyone ends up using fd00:: - bec=
> ause that's the way it worked in IPv4, and ULA is just RFC1918 all over aga=
> in, right?
> >
> 
> I don't agree with trying to create a registry for the non-centrally assign=
> ed ULAs (because I think those people probably think they now own that pref=
> ix), however here is quite a list to show that a lot of people from a varie=
> ty of organisations get that ULAs aren't set to fd00::/8

All locally assigned ULA are in fd00::/8.  I think you meant
fd00:0000:0000::/48.  Yes I deliberatly added the extra zeros make
it clearer.

The example that started this thread was not in fd00:0000:0000::/48.
They may not have configured their border routers to block traffic
to/from fc00::/7 and their router may not have appropriate source
address selection rules for the reply.  Both of those are correctable.

fd00:3303:0000::/48 may not *look* random but it may well be random.

> http://www.sixxs.net/tools/grh/ula/list/
> 
> 
> >
> >The key point here is that people are going to assume is that ULA is like =
> RFC1918 and we should carefully document all the ways in which it isn't.
> >
> 
> Agree with documenting it. Site-locals were "fd00::". The site-local deprec=
> ation RFC is pretty much the inverse of all the ways ULAs aren't site-local=
> s and RFC1918s.
> 
> >
> >So is this draft aiming for BCP status and therefore should only reflect b=
> est common practice?
> >
> >
> >I think documents coming out of v6ops should reflect scenarios where there=
>  is operational experience. I don't think v6ops is the place to say "here's=
>  what we could build". It's the place to say "here's what we've built; here=
> 's what works, and here's what doesn't".
> >
> >
> 
> >As an example: we've already discovered one of the use cases in this draft=
>  (the "use ULA as a pref64") is not a use case after all, because it causes=
>  devices to prefer IPv4 transition technologies like 464xlat over NAT64. We=
>  didn't know this because nobody had actually tried to *operate a network* =
> in such a use case. I happened to catch that one because I wrote and tested=
>  an implementation, but who knows if there are caveats in any of the others?
> >
> >
> >If as an operational group we publish guidance to operators that doesn't w=
> ork in the real world (like the pref64 case above), it will be embarrassing=
>  for us and wasteful of operators' time. We should strive to do better than=
>  that.
> >
> >
> 
> Ok. So then a follow up question is how to provide perhaps more tutorial or=
> iented information? RFCs, quite reasonably, provide enough information to j=
> ustify what is=A0proposed, and usually one use case, but not all of them. T=
> hat may not be enough information for more of a novice fully understand the=
>  problem that is being solved, the variety of opportunities to use it, and =
> the pros and cons of the use of what is proposed in those scenarios. I have=
> n't thought v6ops was just a place to document what has been done, but rath=
> er to document any topics related to operations, including advice and more =
> information on how things invented here and in other IPv6 working groups co=
> uld be used.
> 
> Regards,
> Mark.
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
-- 
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742                 INTERNET: marka@isc.org

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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
Thread-Topic: Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC98DAE@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <51A71ACA.3000608@globis.net> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC994A0@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <51A733E1.7040008@globis.net> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC99A07@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com>
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From: George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org>
To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
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Cc: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>, "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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--047d7b2e0bff7b43ae04ddf9b325
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why on address and not per flow? you already have ASICS/FPGA which do flow
discrimination, is a packet classifier on src,dst really better, when you
cannot actually trust it?


On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:

> >> Sheng Jiang <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>
> >> 30 May 2013 11:58
> >>>> IP addresses are designed as topology locator, so that every packet
> can
> >be
> >>> routed to its network destination.
> >>>> However, even in IPv4 era, some network operators have mapped their IP
> >>> address with certain semantic locally. These kind of mechanism
> explicitly
> >>> express the semantic properties of every packet. Consequently, these
> >network
> >>> operators can inspect the properties of packets easily by mapping the
> >>> addresses back to semantic.
> >>>> Network operators, who have large IPv6 address space, may also choose
> >to
> >>> embedded some semantics into IPv6 addresses by assigning additional
> >>> significance to specific bits within the prefix.
> >>> draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix documents a framework method that
> >>> network operations may use their addresses with embedded semantics.
> >These
> >>> semantics bits are only meaningful within a single network, or group of
> >>> interconnected networks which share a common addressing policy. Based
> >on
> >>> these embedded semantic bits in source/destination addresses, the
> >network
> >>> operators can accordingly treat network packets differently and
> efficiently.
> >>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
> >>>>
> >>>> Could you please review this draft and comments? It will help the
> >document
> >>> become more useful information to be shared.
> >>>> Best regards,
> >>>>
> >>>> Sheng
> >>>>
> >>> I completely understand the desire for operators to have additional
> >>> semantics available for customized packet processing. Flow label now
> has
> >>> very limited properties optimised for load balancers. DSCP only has a
> >>> few bits (way less than the number of customers' policies). ACLs are
> >>> heavy to process at each hop....
> >>>
> >>> But wouldn't this information be better off encoded as tags in one or
> >>> more hop-by-hop header options (that could be re-written on the fly),
> >>> rather than encoded in the IPv6 address space?
> >>
> >> The section 4.1 "Justifcation for Semantics with the IPv6 Prefix"
> describes
> >the reasons.
> >>
> >> Users may easily change the setting of extension header in order to
> obtain
> >undeserved priorities/privileges. Semantic prefix approach does require
> the
> >deployment of access control filters. The packets with the noncompliance
> >source addresses should be filtered. The prefix is delegated by the
> network.
> >Therefore the network is able to detect any undesired modifications and
> filter
> >the packet accordingly.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Sheng
> >>
> >>
> >I don't buy your justification. Whether an operator filters on
> >authorised address range or re-writes/filters an unauthorised hop-by-hop
> >tag is effectively the same IMHO. We have exactly the same issues of
> >potential theft of service with DSCP today, and the solution is equally
> >simple: DSCP markdown at the ingress port.
>
> Yes, the trust issue is the same with DSCP. However, the DSCP abstract all
> the semantics into service classes, which is one single dimension. This
> abstract processing has lost a lot of information, which providers want to
> inspect for every packet, then process the packet accordingly. The
> explicitly expressed semantics in prefix provides much more informations
>
> Sheng
>
> >regards,
> >RayH
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
> ipv6@ietf.org
> Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
>

--047d7b2e0bff7b43ae04ddf9b325
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<div dir=3D"ltr">why on address and not per flow? you already have ASICS/FP=
GA which do flow discrimination, is a packet classifier on src,dst really b=
etter, when you cannot actually trust it?=A0</div><div class=3D"gmail_extra=
"><br>
<br><div class=3D"gmail_quote">On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 11:38 AM, Sheng Jian=
g <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"=
_blank">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><blockquote class=3D=
"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding=
-left:1ex">
<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5">&gt;&gt; Sheng Jiang &lt;mailto:<a =
href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com">jiangsheng@huawei.com</a>&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; 30 May 2013 11:58<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; IP addresses are designed as topology locator, so that eve=
ry packet can<br>
&gt;be<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; routed to its network destination.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; However, even in IPv4 era, some network operators have map=
ped their IP<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; address with certain semantic locally. These kind of mechanism=
 explicitly<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; express the semantic properties of every packet. Consequently,=
 these<br>
&gt;network<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; operators can inspect the properties of packets easily by mapp=
ing the<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; addresses back to semantic.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Network operators, who have large IPv6 address space, may =
also choose<br>
&gt;to<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; embedded some semantics into IPv6 addresses by assigning addit=
ional<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; significance to specific bits within the prefix.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix documents a framework method=
 that<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; network operations may use their addresses with embedded seman=
tics.<br>
&gt;These<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; semantics bits are only meaningful within a single network, or=
 group of<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; interconnected networks which share a common addressing policy=
. Based<br>
&gt;on<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; these embedded semantic bits in source/destination addresses, =
the<br>
&gt;network<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; operators can accordingly treat network packets differently an=
d efficiently.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; <a href=3D"http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-v6ops-se=
mantic-prefix-03" target=3D"_blank">http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-=
v6ops-semantic-prefix-03</a><br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Could you please review this draft and comments? It will h=
elp the<br>
&gt;document<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; become more useful information to be shared.<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Best regards,<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; Sheng<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; I completely understand the desire for operators to have addit=
ional<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; semantics available for customized packet processing. Flow lab=
el now has<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; very limited properties optimised for load balancers. DSCP onl=
y has a<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; few bits (way less than the number of customers&#39; policies)=
. ACLs are<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; heavy to process at each hop....<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; But wouldn&#39;t this information be better off encoded as tag=
s in one or<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; more hop-by-hop header options (that could be re-written on th=
e fly),<br>
&gt;&gt;&gt; rather than encoded in the IPv6 address space?<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; The section 4.1 &quot;Justifcation for Semantics with the IPv6 Pre=
fix&quot; describes<br>
&gt;the reasons.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Users may easily change the setting of extension header in order t=
o obtain<br>
&gt;undeserved priorities/privileges. Semantic prefix approach does require=
 the<br>
&gt;deployment of access control filters. The packets with the noncomplianc=
e<br>
&gt;source addresses should be filtered. The prefix is delegated by the net=
work.<br>
&gt;Therefore the network is able to detect any undesired modifications and=
 filter<br>
&gt;the packet accordingly.<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Cheers,<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt; Sheng<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;&gt;<br>
&gt;I don&#39;t buy your justification. Whether an operator filters on<br>
&gt;authorised address range or re-writes/filters an unauthorised hop-by-ho=
p<br>
&gt;tag is effectively the same IMHO. We have exactly the same issues of<br=
>
&gt;potential theft of service with DSCP today, and the solution is equally=
<br>
&gt;simple: DSCP markdown at the ingress port.<br>
<br>
</div></div>Yes, the trust issue is the same with DSCP. However, the DSCP a=
bstract all the semantics into service classes, which is one single dimensi=
on. This abstract processing has lost a lot of information, which providers=
 want to inspect for every packet, then process the packet accordingly. The=
 explicitly expressed semantics in prefix provides much more informations<b=
r>

<div class=3D"HOEnZb"><div class=3D"h5"><br>
Sheng<br>
<br>
&gt;regards,<br>
&gt;RayH<br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org">ipv6@ietf.org</a><br>
Administrative Requests: <a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i=
pv6" target=3D"_blank">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6</a><br>
--------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
</div></div></blockquote></div><br></div>

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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Arturo Servin <arturo.servin@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Thu May 30 18:52:13 2013
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 13:52:13 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On 31/05/2013 10:07, Jeroen Massar wrote:
> On 2013-05-30 14:45, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> [..]
>>> In the early news, not really a new problem.
>>>
>>> RFC1918 and 100.64/10 leak too, 
>> In traceroutes, link-locals sometimes leak too.
> 
> I have never come across that; except maybe when tracerouting to a
> link-local, and then, that would only be one hop anyway.
> 
> If you know how to replicate it, I am very interested in a packet dump
> or what is involved to cause it.

I understand it happens when the router in question has a next-hop
that is link-local and it has been set to use that address as the
default source address for ICMP replies, *and* there is no source address
filter along the path that blocks it.

This is not new; there's a thread starting at:
http://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg11277.html

>> All these are confusing and make the traceroute hard to interpret,
>> but they don't actually *matter*. What matters is if they leak in
>> actual traffic such as attempted TCP connections. Does that happen?
> 
> One should only see a link-local when:
>  - the source packet is link-local
>  - the destination host only has a link-local and replies (TTL or so)
> 
> But that should never cross more than one (1) hop as link-locals should
> not be forwarded.

True, although in the specific case of traceroute you get a bit of useful
information from the illegal forwarding (whether it's link-local or ULA).

    Brian
> 
> Greets,
>  Jeroen
> 
> .
> 

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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: "Joel M. Halpern" <jmh@joelhalpern.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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From leo.liubing@huawei.com  Thu May 30 19:07:54 2013
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From: "Liubing (Leo)" <leo.liubing@huawei.com>
To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mark Smith [mailto:markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au]
> Sent: Thursday, May 30, 2013 4:11 PM
> To: Lorenzo Colitti; v6ops@ietf.org WG

> >Personally, I think that providing said guidance is much more useful and
> important than enumerating scenarios that aren't widely, if at all,
> implemented, and I hope that the authors
> of=A0draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations will agree.
[Bing] I agree it would be helpful to provide some basic/general operationa=
l guidance, and we did plan to include some in the next version.
But as Mark commented in the following, the original intention of this draf=
t is about use scenarios. Operational guidance is only a supplementary.
=20
> So is this draft aiming for BCP status and therefore should only reflect =
best
> common practice? If not, I think it is reasonable to present scenarios wh=
ere
> ULAs could be useful.=A0
=20

>We've got a lot of experience with private address
> spaces from IPv4 (the=A0Deprecating Site Local Addresses RFC3879 is also =
a
> pretty complete list of the problems with RFC1918 addresses), so the only
> real difference is scenarios where concurrent global and private address
> spaces could be useful.=20
[Bing] It might not be the "only" difference, but surely it is the most obv=
ious advance comparing to IPv4, and it was the most important motivation to=
 write the draft.

>In some cases, they'll just be more capable versions
> of what we've already doing in IPv4 e.g. private addressed loopbacks on
> routers, global addresses on the links, in a ULA environment you would ad=
d
> ULAs to the links too, which could make troubleshooting and other OAM les=
s
> dependent on the global address space.
[Bing] Agreed. I think that would be a good use case and hope to see some r=
eal experience in the future.

All the best,
Bing

> Regards,
> Mark.
>=20
> >Cheers,
> >Lorenzo
> >
> >
> >---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >From: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@massar.ch>
> >Date: Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:59 AM
> >Subject: Usage of fd00::/8 on the Interwebz - something with filters and
> uRPF
> >To: ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de
> >
> >
> >...
> >=A04 =A02001:7f8:1::a500:3303:1 (2001:7f8:1::a500:3303:1) =A020.755
> ms =A020.763 ms =A020.784 ms
> >=A05 =A0fd00:3303::1 (fd00:3303::1) =A022.010 ms =A021.984 ms =A021.986 =
ms
> >=A06 =A02a02:120c:1051:d010::1 (2a02:120c:1051:d010::1) =A017.806
> ms =A017.889 ms =A017.842 ms
> >=A07 =A02a02:120c:1051:d010::1 (2a02:120c:1051:d010::1) =A018.720
> ms =A018.593 ms =A018.617 ms
> >...
> >
> >Hmmmm fd00::/8, that really should never ever be visible on the Internet=
,
> being Unique *LOCAL* Addresses.
> >And it does not look like they applied the randomness bit for picking a =
prefix
> either.
> >You would also almost think that a /28 is more than enough address space
> to put a few router loopbacks in.
> >
> >It is apparently time for people to start checking their filters again b=
ecause
> it seems that these packets leak into other ASNs too...
> >
> >More generally, do recheck your network for BCP38 compliance, please do
> apply it and require your peers to do the same!
> >
> >Greets,
> >=A0Jeroen
> >
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >v6ops mailing list
> >v6ops@ietf.org
> >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> >
> >
> >

From Ted.Lemon@nominum.com  Thu May 30 19:12:37 2013
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From: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
To: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@massar.ch>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 02:12:24 +0000
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On May 30, 2013, at 6:07 PM, Jeroen Massar <jeroen@massar.ch> wrote:
> If you know how to replicate it, I am very interested in a packet dump
> or what is involved to cause it.

Just number your internal network using ULAs and no global addresses, and t=
hen run a traceroute across it.   Global addresses on the source end, globa=
l addresses on the destination end, ULAs in the middle.   The only way to "=
fix" this is to break traceroute.   This does not represent brokenness.   O=
f course, it's just shy of brokenness=97if the devices that are answering t=
he ICMP messages in the core of the network are using ULAs for that, they w=
ould also use ULAs if they tried to *connect* to hosts outside of the core =
of the network.   But they are infrastructure devices=97routers=97so in pra=
ctice they don't do this, and it isn't a problem.


From jiangsheng@huawei.com  Thu May 30 19:23:15 2013
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
Thread-Index: AQHOXDsZXTVBYam7gkul8TB7nKV985kcQnwAgAEA7rCAABrPAIABMw5Q
Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 02:22:37 +0000
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: "Duncan, Richard (Jeremy)" <jeremy.duncan@salientfed.com>, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 02:54:15 +0000
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than	locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 03:09:05 +0000
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 03:24:34 +0000
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than	locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: George Michaelson <ggm@algebras.org>
Thread-Topic: Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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From: Qiong <bingxuere@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 11:45:02 +0800
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To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
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Cc: "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>, "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Hi Sheng,

On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:

>  Comparing giving 16 bits for subscribers, which rarely use it or we
> still have no concrete idea how this will be used, the semantic bits on the
> provider side looks more helpful.****
>
> ** **
>
> Or provider may designate the bit in the lower 16 bits can have some
> semantics. For example, a provider may give every subscriber /48 and
> appoint that all subscribers should use their /48+0000 (48~51 bit) -> a /52
> prefix for a certain application, like VoIP. Then the provider can inspect
> all VoIP traffic from different subscribers by only set condition 48~51 bit
> equal to 0000. This variation of semantic prefix is also helpful.
>
[Qiong] I have little concern for this variation. For operators who can not
fully control of subscriber's CPE, this solution may have trust issue, and
it may get conflict with other CPE's allocation policy. But it is ok for
operators who can fully control of subscriber's CPE.

Best wishes
Qiong


 ** **
>
> *From:* Ted Lemon [mailto:Ted.Lemon@nominum.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2013 3:29 AM
> *To:* Owen DeLong
> *Cc:* Sheng Jiang; draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org;
> ipv6@ietf.org; <v6ops@ietf.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than
> locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03****
>
>  ** **
>
> On May 30, 2013, at 12:08 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:****
>
>  Not a great assumption... They should need 4 million or more /48s since
> every subscriber is at least one end site and every subscriber end site
> should receive a /48.****
>
>  ** **
>
> I am not in love with using bits from prefixes as semantic tags.
> However, having said that, I think it's a bit ironic that you're talking
> about wasting space with semantic bits, on the one hand, and talking about
> the need for a /48 in every home on the other.   It would be perfectly
> reasonable for the ISP to specify that some of the bits in the /48 have
> semantic meaning, for example, and given that we think it's okay to give
> the home network a /48, we are hardly in a position to quibble about how
> the bits in that /48 are used.****
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>


-- 
==============================================
Qiong Sun
China Telecom Beijing Research Institude


Open source code:
lightweight 4over6: *http://sourceforge.net/projects/laft6/*
PCP-natcoord:* http://sourceforge.net/projects/pcpportsetdemo/ *
===============================================

--bcaec50162330658ad04ddfb735f
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<div dir=3D"ltr">Hi Sheng,<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><br><div class=3D"gmai=
l_quote">On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 11:24 AM, Sheng Jiang <span dir=3D"ltr">&l=
t;<a href=3D"mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com" target=3D"_blank">jiangsheng@hua=
wei.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br>

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1p=
x #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">





<div lang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break=
-word">
<div><div class=3D"im">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Comparing =
giving 16 bits for subscribers, which rarely use it or we still have no con=
crete idea how this will be used, the semantic bits on the
 provider side looks more helpful.<u></u><u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d">Or provide=
r may designate the bit in the lower 16 bits can have some semantics. For e=
xample, a provider may give every subscriber /48 and appoint
 that all subscribers should use their /48+0000 (48~51 bit) -&gt; a /52 pre=
fix for a certain application, like VoIP. Then the provider can inspect all=
 VoIP traffic from different subscribers by only set condition 48~51 bit eq=
ual to 0000. This variation of semantic
 prefix is also helpful.</span></p></div></div></div></blockquote><div styl=
e>[Qiong] I have little concern for this variation. For operators who can n=
ot fully control of subscriber&#39;s CPE, this solution may have trust issu=
e, and it may get conflict with other CPE&#39;s allocation policy. But it i=
s ok for operators who can fully control of subscriber&#39;s CPE.</div>

<div style><br></div><div style>Best wishes</div><div style>Qiong</div><div=
 style><br></div><div style><br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" sty=
le=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div l=
ang=3D"ZH-CN" link=3D"blue" vlink=3D"purple" style=3D"word-wrap:break-word"=
>

<div><div class=3D"im">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Calibri&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;;color:#1f497d"><u></u>=C2=
=A0<u></u></span></p>
</div><div style=3D"border:none;border-left:solid blue 1.5pt;padding:0cm 0c=
m 0cm 4.0pt">
<div>
<div style=3D"border:none;border-top:solid #b5c4df 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm =
0cm 0cm">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><b><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;fo=
nt-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;">From:</span></b><span =
lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:10.0pt;font-family:&quot;Tahoma&quot;,&qu=
ot;sans-serif&quot;"> Ted Lemon [mailto:<a href=3D"mailto:Ted.Lemon@nominum=
.com" target=3D"_blank">Ted.Lemon@nominum.com</a>]
<br></span></p><div class=3D"im">
<b>Sent:</b> Friday, May 31, 2013 3:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Owen DeLong<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Sheng Jiang; <a href=3D"mailto:draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix=
@tools.ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.=
ietf.org</a>; <a href=3D"mailto:ipv6@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">ipv6@ietf.=
org</a>; &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org" target=3D"_blank">v6ops@ietf=
.org</a>&gt;<br>


</div><div class=3D"im"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be m=
ore than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03<u></u><u></u></div>=
<p></p>
</div>
</div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">On May 30, 2013, at 12:08 PM, O=
wen DeLong &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:owen@delong.com" target=3D"_blank">owen@de=
long.com</a>&gt; wrote:<u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div><div class=3D"im">
<blockquote style=3D"margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt">
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US" style=3D"font-size:13.5pt;font-=
family:&quot;Optima&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;">Not a great assumption... They=
 should need 4 million or more /48s since every subscriber is at least one =
end site and every subscriber end site should receive a /48.<u></u><u></u><=
/span></p>


</div>
</blockquote>
</div></div><div class=3D"im">
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US"><u></u>=C2=A0<u></u></span></p>
<div>
<p class=3D"MsoNormal"><span lang=3D"EN-US">I am not in love with using bit=
s from prefixes as semantic tags. =C2=A0 However, having said that, I think=
 it&#39;s a bit ironic that you&#39;re talking about wasting space with sem=
antic bits, on the one hand, and talking about the
 need for a /48 in every home on the other. =C2=A0 It would be perfectly re=
asonable for the ISP to specify that some of the bits in the /48 have seman=
tic meaning, for example, and given that we think it&#39;s okay to give the=
 home network a /48, we are hardly in a position
 to quibble about how the bits in that /48 are used.</span><span lang=3D"EN=
-US" style=3D"color:#1f497d"><u></u><u></u></span></p>
</div>
</div></div>
</div>
</div>

<br>_______________________________________________<br>
v6ops mailing list<br>
<a href=3D"mailto:v6ops@ietf.org">v6ops@ietf.org</a><br>
<a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" target=3D"_blank">h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops</a><br>
<br></blockquote></div><br><br clear=3D"all"><div><br></div>-- <br>=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br>Qiong Sun<br>C=
hina Telecom Beijing Research Institude<br><br><br>Open source code:<br>lig=
htweight 4over6: <i><a href=3D"http://sourceforge.net/projects/laft6/" targ=
et=3D"_blank">http://sourceforge.net/projects/laft6/</a></i><br>

PCP-natcoord:<i> <a href=3D"http://sourceforge.net/projects/pcpportsetdemo/=
" target=3D"_blank">http://sourceforge.net/projects/pcpportsetdemo/</a> </i=
><br>=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D<br=
><br>
</div></div>

--bcaec50162330658ad04ddfb735f--

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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Qiong <bingxuere@gmail.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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From v6ops@globis.net  Thu May 30 23:23:09 2013
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From: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
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To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
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Cc: "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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> Sheng Jiang <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>
> 31 May 2013 03:38
>>> Sheng Jiang <mailto:jiangsheng@huawei.com>
>>> 30 May 2013 11:58
>>>>> IP addresses are designed as topology locator, so that every packet can
>> be
>>>> routed to its network destination.
>>>>> However, even in IPv4 era, some network operators have mapped their IP
>>>> address with certain semantic locally. These kind of mechanism explicitly
>>>> express the semantic properties of every packet. Consequently, these
>> network
>>>> operators can inspect the properties of packets easily by mapping the
>>>> addresses back to semantic.
>>>>> Network operators, who have large IPv6 address space, may also choose
>> to
>>>> embedded some semantics into IPv6 addresses by assigning additional
>>>> significance to specific bits within the prefix.
>>>> draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix documents a framework method that
>>>> network operations may use their addresses with embedded semantics.
>> These
>>>> semantics bits are only meaningful within a single network, or group of
>>>> interconnected networks which share a common addressing policy. Based
>> on
>>>> these embedded semantic bits in source/destination addresses, the
>> network
>>>> operators can accordingly treat network packets differently and efficiently.
>>>>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>>>>>
>>>>> Could you please review this draft and comments? It will help the
>> document
>>>> become more useful information to be shared.
>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Sheng
>>>>>
>>>> I completely understand the desire for operators to have additional
>>>> semantics available for customized packet processing. Flow label now has
>>>> very limited properties optimised for load balancers. DSCP only has a
>>>> few bits (way less than the number of customers' policies). ACLs are
>>>> heavy to process at each hop....
>>>>
>>>> But wouldn't this information be better off encoded as tags in one or
>>>> more hop-by-hop header options (that could be re-written on the fly),
>>>> rather than encoded in the IPv6 address space?
>>> The section 4.1 "Justifcation for Semantics with the IPv6 Prefix" describes
>> the reasons.
>>> Users may easily change the setting of extension header in order to obtain
>> undeserved priorities/privileges. Semantic prefix approach does require the
>> deployment of access control filters. The packets with the noncompliance
>> source addresses should be filtered. The prefix is delegated by the network.
>> Therefore the network is able to detect any undesired modifications and filter
>> the packet accordingly.
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> Sheng
>>>
>>>
>> I don't buy your justification. Whether an operator filters on
>> authorised address range or re-writes/filters an unauthorised hop-by-hop
>> tag is effectively the same IMHO. We have exactly the same issues of
>> potential theft of service with DSCP today, and the solution is equally
>> simple: DSCP markdown at the ingress port.
>
> Yes, the trust issue is the same with DSCP. However, the DSCP abstract all the semantics into service classes, which is one single dimension. This abstract processing has lost a lot of information, which providers want to inspect for every packet, then process the packet accordingly. The explicitly expressed semantics in prefix provides much more informations
>
> Sheng
>
>> regards,
>> RayH
>
Which is why I wrote "wouldn't this information be better off encoded as
tags in one or more hop-by-hop header options?" and not just "go and use
DSCP"

I contend that hop by hop options acting as tags would:

1) be the correct and logical place to transport such information

2) be capable of handling multiple semantics simultaneously

3) not unnecessarily waste/reserve IPv6 address space, which is large,
but not infinite

4) have much more information carrying capacity than a small and fixed
number of bits stolen from the IPv6 prefix
Your example in Appendix A shows 12 bits of information with only 3 bits
available per type of semantic bits. I suspect it will be impossible to
agree on a standard division of 12 bits that works for everyone, just as
DSCP gets overwritten at every AS boundary. Whereas a single hop by hop
option header has 4 octets as a minimum and can be extended by another 8
octets if necessary.

5) be optional: if a particular tag isn't required by a particular
session or node or LAN or site, you don't add it.
Rather than having a fixed 12 bits of information as suggested in
appendix A, you could only tag those properties necessary for this
packet (penalty of course is potentially more parsing on the fly, but
that trade off can be discussed e.g. by fixing the option length as you
suggest)

The conclusion from replies to the draft so far would seem to read "No,
don't do it"

I would therefore humbly suggest you concentrate more effort on
documenting a problem statement detailing the requirements for the
semantics of tagging that aren't met by today's solutions, and which are
making people turn to this alternative of prefix encoding, rather than
focussing on the mechanics of how to encode the semantics into the
prefix. One example I can think of would be Bellovin's distributed
firewalls and marking of security zones.

regards
RayH

From martin@millnert.se  Thu May 30 23:48:45 2013
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From: Martin Millnert <martin@millnert.se>
Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 08:48:40 +0200
To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Cc: "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Hi Sheng,

For reference, Deutsche Telekom's Peter L=C3=B6thberg brainchild-project Ter=
astream puts locally significant information in IPv6 addresses (recreating s=
ome sort of label switching/routing). It's currently being deployed in Croat=
ia.

Regards,
Martin

On 29 maj 2013, at 09:06, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:

> IP addresses are designed as topology locator, so that every packet can be=
 routed to its network destination.
>=20
> However, even in IPv4 era, some network operators have mapped their IP add=
ress with certain semantic locally. These kind of mechanism explicitly expre=
ss the semantic properties of every packet. Consequently, these network oper=
ators can inspect the properties of packets easily by mapping the addresses b=
ack to semantic.
>=20
> Network operators, who have large IPv6 address space, may also choose to e=
mbedded some semantics into IPv6 addresses by assigning additional significa=
nce to specific bits within the prefix. draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix do=
cuments a framework method that network operations may use their addresses w=
ith embedded semantics. These semantics bits are only meaningful within a si=
ngle network, or group of interconnected networks which share a common addre=
ssing policy. Based on these embedded semantic bits in source/destination ad=
dresses, the network operators can accordingly treat network packets differe=
ntly and efficiently.
>=20
> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>=20
> Could you please review this draft and comments? It will help the document=
 become more useful information to be shared.
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Sheng
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: internet-drafts@ietf.org [mailto:internet-drafts@ietf.org]
>> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2013 10:28 AM
>> To: Qiong Sun; Ian Farrer; Sheng Jiang; Boyang
>> Subject: New Version Notification for
>> draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03.txt
>>=20
>>=20
>> A new version of I-D, draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03.txt
>> has been successfully submitted by Sheng Jiang and posted to the
>> IETF repository.
>>=20
>> Filename:     draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix
>> Revision:     03
>> Title:         A Framework for Semantic IPv6 Prefix
>> Creation date:     2013-05-28
>> Group:         Individual Submission
>> Number of pages: 19
>> URL:
>> http://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03.=
txt
>> Status:
>> http://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix
>> Htmlized:
>> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>> Diff:
>> http://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
>>=20
>> Abstract:
>>  This document describes a framework method that network operations
>>  may use their addresses.  Network operators, who have large IPv6
>>  address space, may choose to embedded some semantics into IPv6
>>  addresses by assigning additional significance to specific bits
>>  within the prefix.  By embedded semantics into IPv6 prefixes, the
>>  semantics of packets can be inspected easily.  Routers and other
>>  intermediary devices can easily apply relevant policies as required.
>>  Packet-level differentiation can also enable flow-level and user-
>>  level differentiation.  Consequently, the network operators can
>>  accordingly treat network packets differently and efficiently.  The
>>  management and maintenance of networks can be much simpler.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The IETF Secretariat
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

From jiangsheng@huawei.com  Fri May 31 00:38:14 2013
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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
Thread-Topic: Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC98DAE@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <51A71ACA.3000608@globis.net> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC994A0@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <51A733E1.7040008@globis.net> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC99A07@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <51A841B5.3010805@globis.net>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Cc: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>, "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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On 31 May 2013, at 08:37, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:
>=20
> Actually, my motivation is NOT to sell this mechanism to anyone. My =
observation is some network operators, both ISPs and enterprise network =
operator, has such address plan, or already in use. We, as IETF, cannot =
stop them. So, we should document and analyze this mechanism. This =
should give some information to these who have not made their address =
plan yet on whether they may follow or not.

Sheng, are those ISPs and enterprises already contributors within the =
IETF?  Can you say any more about who these are, and examples of the =
semantics actually being deployed?  I assume China Telecom and Deutsche =
Telekom are two of them.

As you say, at the moment the draft reads as a proposal, rather than an =
analysis of something already in use.  Some concrete examples may help.

Tim


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From: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
To: Tim Chown <tjc@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Thread-Topic: Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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From martin@millnert.se  Fri May 31 02:14:40 2013
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From: Martin Millnert <martin@millnert.se>
Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 11:14:36 +0200
To: Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com>
Cc: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>, "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Hi,

On 31 maj 2013, at 09:37, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:
<snip>
> Hi, Ray,
>=20
> Thanks for your suggestion. Hop-by-hop header options may also be alternat=
ive for this.
<snip>

Extra headers is a no-go for efficient FIB-lookup and thus a waste of time i=
n many aspects to standardize.=20

My 2 cents.

Regards,
Martin


From v6ops@globis.net  Fri May 31 02:46:51 2013
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From: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
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Cc: "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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> Martin Millnert <mailto:martin@millnert.se>
> 31 May 2013 11:14
> Hi,
>
> On 31 maj 2013, at 09:37, Sheng Jiang <jiangsheng@huawei.com> wrote:
> <snip>
> <snip>
>
> Extra headers is a no-go for efficient FIB-lookup and thus a waste of
> time in many aspects to standardize.
>
> My 2 cents.
>
> Regards,
> Martin

I was suggesting looking at using a tag option within an existing header
(the hop by hop header), which theoretically is already processed by all
nodes along the path. So new options rather than a new header.

Whether we encode these additional semantics via an address match, or a
DSCP match, or a hop by hop approach, I agree the tag has to be found
and parsed and processed, so it would seem sensible to me to avoid
unnecessarily overloading existing semantics and instead to encode it in
the position in the packet where you'd expect to find something meant
for hop by hop processing i.e. the hop by hop header.

If operators don't want to process the hop by hop header in the network
core for whatever reason, draft-carpenter-6man-ext-transmit already
proposes allowing skipping it. The alternatives: tagging in the address
structure, creating tunnels, and tagging by encapsulation e.g. MPLS,
also have significant pros and cons for both parsing and forwarding.

But why are people coming up with these schemes for encoding semantics
in the address prefixes in the first place? That's what I'd like to
understand first and foremost: what lack of functionality is
motivating/forcing these people to adopt such schemes?

regards,
RayH

From Ted.Lemon@nominum.com  Fri May 31 04:37:51 2013
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From: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
To: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than	locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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On May 31, 2013, at 5:46 AM, Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net> wrote:
> I was suggesting looking at using a tag option within an existing header
> (the hop by hop header), which theoretically is already processed by all
> nodes along the path. So new options rather than a new header.

Right, but the hop-by-hop header doesn't exist unless you add it, and it ca=
n't be processed on the fast path.   It's useful for networks where there _=
is_ no fast path (e.g., llns), but not so useful for the applications we're=
 talking about here (e.g., VoIP).

> But why are people coming up with these schemes for encoding semantics
> in the address prefixes in the first place? That's what I'd like to
> understand first and foremost: what lack of functionality is
> motivating/forcing these people to adopt such schemes?

This is a good question to be asking.


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From: Nalini Elkins <nalini.elkins@insidethestack.com>
To: "6man@ietf.org" <6man@ietf.org>, "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
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--1510626085-1457027007-1370003545=:24023
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All,=0A=0APlease comment on a new Destination Option that we are proposing:=
=0A=0Ahttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-6man-ipv6-pdm-dest-opti=
on/=0A=0AThere are two documents which give the background:=0A=0Ahttps://da=
tatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-v6ops-ipv6-end-to-end-rt-needed/=0A=0A=
=0Ahttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-v6ops-ipv6-packet-sequence=
-needed/=0A=0A=0AAnd one which gives the recommended usage of this destinat=
ion option:=0A=0Ahttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-v6ops-ipv6-p=
dm-recommended-usage/=0A=0AWe will be contacting the 6Man chairs to get on =
the agenda for Berlin.=0A=0A=A0=0AThanks,=0A=0A=0ANalini Elkins=0AInside Pr=
oducts, Inc.=0A(831) 659-8360=0Awww.insidethestack.com
--1510626085-1457027007-1370003545=:24023
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<html><body><div style=3D"color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:ar=
ial, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div>All,</div><div><br></div><d=
iv style=3D"background-color: transparent;">Please comment on a new Destina=
tion Option that we are proposing:</div><div style=3D"background-color: tra=
nsparent;"><br></div><div style=3D"background-color: transparent;"><span><a=
 rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/do=
c/draft-elkins-6man-ipv6-pdm-dest-option/" style=3D"color: rgb(40, 98, 197)=
; outline: 0px;">https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-6man-ipv6-pd=
m-dest-option/</a></span></div><div style=3D"background-color: transparent;=
"><br></div><div style=3D"background-color: transparent;">There are two doc=
uments which give the background:</div><div style=3D"background-color: tran=
sparent;"><br></div><div style=3D"background-color: transparent;"><a rel=3D=
"nofollow" target=3D"_blank"
 href=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-v6ops-ipv6-end-to-en=
d-rt-needed/" style=3D"color: rgb(40, 98, 197); outline: 0px;">https://data=
tracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-v6ops-ipv6-end-to-end-rt-needed/</a><br><=
/div><div style=3D"background-color: transparent;"><br></div><div style=3D"=
background-color: transparent;"><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=
=3D"https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-v6ops-ipv6-packet-sequenc=
e-needed/" style=3D"color: rgb(40, 98, 197); outline: 0px;">https://datatra=
cker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-v6ops-ipv6-packet-sequence-needed/</a><br></=
div><div style=3D"background-color: transparent;"><br></div><div style=3D"b=
ackground-color: transparent;">And one which gives the recommended usage of=
 this destination option:</div><div style=3D"background-color: transparent;=
"><br></div><div></div><div><a rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" href=3D"h=
ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-elkins-v6ops-ipv6-pdm-recommended-usa=
ge/" style=3D"color:
 rgb(40, 98, 197); outline: 0px; font-size: 12pt;">https://datatracker.ietf=
.org/doc/draft-elkins-v6ops-ipv6-pdm-recommended-usage/</a></div><div><br><=
/div><div><span></span></div><div>We will be contacting the 6Man chairs to =
get on the agenda for Berlin.</div><div><br></div><div></div><div>&nbsp;</d=
iv><div>Thanks,<br><br></div><div>Nalini Elkins<br>Inside Products, Inc.<br=
>(831) 659-8360<br>www.insidethestack.com<br><br>  <div style=3D"font-famil=
y: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style=3D"font-fami=
ly: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div di=
r=3D"ltr"> </div><div class=3D"y_msg_container"><br></div> </div> </div>  <=
/div></div></body></html>
--1510626085-1457027007-1370003545=:24023--

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From: "bingxuere@gmail.com" <bingxuere@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 22:02:12 +0800
To: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
Cc: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>, "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Hi Ted and all,

On 2013-5-31, at 19:37, Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com> wrote:

> On May 31, 2013, at 5:46 AM, Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net> wrote:
>> I was suggesting looking at using a tag option within an existing header
>> (the hop by hop header), which theoretically is already processed by all
>> nodes along the path. So new options rather than a new header.
>=20
> Right, but the hop-by-hop header doesn't exist unless you add it, and it c=
an't be processed on the fast path.   It's useful for networks where there _=
is_ no fast path (e.g., llns), but not so useful for the applications we're t=
alking about here (e.g., VoIP).
>=20
>> But why are people coming up with these schemes for encoding semantics
>> in the address prefixes in the first place? That's what I'd like to
>> understand first and foremost: what lack of functionality is
>> motivating/forcing these people to adopt such schemes?
>=20
> This is a good question to be asking.
[Qiong] I'm trying to answer this question from operator's aspect. When we a=
re trying to encode semantics e.g service type, subscriber type, etc., in so=
me flag, it should have the following features:
1) It should exist and be encoded from the beginning. Otherwise, we still ne=
ed to introduce dpi-related system to identify certain services, which I bel=
ieve is not scalable.
2) It cannot be changed along the path. Otherwise, there will be trust issue=
 and may be changed to a different value without notice.
3) It can be easily treated in existing routers. In the ideal way, it does n=
ot need to introduce new functionality so that all our existing routers can d=
eal with it. This can greatly reduce our upgrading cost.
These are major reasons that we embed semantics in prefixes.  But I'm still o=
pen suggestions if there is a better choice.

Best wishes
Qiong
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

From dwing@cisco.com  Fri May 31 17:48:13 2013
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Cc: v6ops@ietf.org, draft-elkins-v6ops-ipv6-end-to-end-rt-needed@tools.ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] new draft: draft-elkins-v6ops-ipv6-end-to-end-rt-needed
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On May 31, 2013, at 5:45 AM, fred@cisco.com wrote:

> A new draft has been posted, at =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-elkins-v6ops-ipv6-end-to-end-rt-needed. =
Please take a look at it and comment.

I read that document and draft-elkins-v6ops-ipv6-packet-sequence-needed. =
 Both the documents talk about how IPID is useful on IPv4 (if the sender =
is monotonically increasing the IPID, which is a necessity for the =
existing system to operate) and how routers sometimes send a packet =
twice (which is normal behavior of Ethernet) and that the monotonically =
increasing IPID helps distinguish Ethernet re-transmissions from host =
stack retransmissions.

I note that Real Time Protocol (RTP, RFC3550; previously RFC1889 =
published in 1996) had similar needs and solved them at the RTP =
application layer with sequence numbers and timestamps, and with its =
RTCP feedback channel.  The two I-Ds that I reviewed did not discuss why =
this application timing problem cannot be solved at the application =
layer like RTP solved it.

I did not see an analysis of forcing an IPv6 fragmentation header (as =
done by 4rd for transparency, =
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-softwire-4rd), as that could =
provide a function nearly identical to the existing (ab)use of IPv4 =
IPID.

-d


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To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On May 30, 2013, at 2:23 PM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au> =
wrote:

>=20
>> ________________________________
>> From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
>> To: Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au>=20
>> Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>; =
"draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" =
<draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>=20
>> Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2013 7:07 PM
>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about =
ULAs
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> On Thu, May 30, 2013 at 5:11 PM, Mark Smith =
<markzzzsmith@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> In the early news, not really a new problem.
>>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> The part where an RFC asserts says that we can generate globally =
unique addresses with no global coordination is a new problem. Yes, in =
theory it works, but in practice it doesn't, because everyone ends up =
using fd00:: - because that's the way it worked in IPv4, and ULA is just =
RFC1918 all over again, right?
>>=20
>=20
> I don't agree with trying to create a registry for the non-centrally =
assigned ULAs (because I think those people probably think they now own =
that prefix), however here is quite a list to show that a lot of people =
from a variety of organisations get that ULAs aren't set to fd00::/8
>=20
> http://www.sixxs.net/tools/grh/ula/list/
>=20

Not exactly.. It's a list of people that thought the newest pez =
dispenser on the internet might be fun to play with for a little while. =
Some of them may actually be using the ULAs as described in the list. =
Most probably aren't.

I think I even appear in that list once or twice. I guarantee you I'm =
not using any ULAs at this time.

>> If as an operational group we publish guidance to operators that =
doesn't work in the real world (like the pref64 case above), it will be =
embarrassing for us and wasteful of operators' time. We should strive to =
do better than that.
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
> Ok. So then a follow up question is how to provide perhaps more =
tutorial oriented information? RFCs, quite reasonably, provide enough =
information to justify what is proposed, and usually one use case, but =
not all of them. That may not be enough information for more of a novice =
fully understand the problem that is being solved, the variety of =
opportunities to use it, and the pros and cons of the use of what is =
proposed in those scenarios. I haven't thought v6ops was just a place to =
document what has been done, but rather to document any topics related =
to operations, including advice and more information on how things =
invented here and in other IPv6 working groups could be used.

RFCs which document standards follow the format you describe. =
Informational RFCs, OTOH, can be more tutorial in nature and I don't =
really see much value in this one if it is not.

Owen


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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On May 30, 2013, at 2:45 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 30/05/2013 20:11, Mark Smith wrote:
>>> ________________________________
>>> From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
>>> To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>=20
>>> Cc: "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" =
<draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>=20
>>> Sent: Thursday, 30 May 2013 4:41 PM
>>> Subject: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> News at 11:
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> 1. ULAs leak.
>>>=20
>>> 2. People assign ULAs by hand.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> In the early news, not really a new problem.
>>=20
>> RFC1918 and 100.64/10 leak too,=20
>=20
> In traceroutes, link-locals sometimes leak too.
>=20

Only if the intermediate routers are broken. A router should not forward =
the ICMP Time Exceeded message off link if it contains a link-local =
source address.

> All these are confusing and make the traceroute hard to interpret,
> but they don't actually *matter*. What matters is if they leak in
> actual traffic such as attempted TCP connections. Does that happen?

How is having them leak in attempted TCP connections worse than having =
them leak in ICMP headers? It's still an invalid header.

Owen

>=20
>   Brian
>=20
>> and what is worse, I've seen people intentionally expose RFC1918s to =
other networks - the largest carrier here in .au uses RFC1918 addresses =
for their wholesale ADSL L2TP LACs (from memory, at least 20 to 30, =
spread across multiple /16s within 172.16/12) and then expect their many =
wholesale ADSL customers' to just accept those addresses and make them =
work within their own networks, despite their own, quite legitimate =
internal use of 172.16/12 (fortunately VRFs/VPNs can be used to isolate =
that address space from your own). So we can't pretend that RFC1918s =
have been perfectly used, and therefore ULAs being less private than =
intended is going to be new problem and experience. At least properly =
formed ULAs are unlikely to conflict with other network's ones, even if =
the other network has used fd00::/8, and if the two interconnecting =
parties have both been lazy and used fd00::/8, they'll both be victims =
of theirs and the other
>> party's laziness (which they'll be used to, since they've probably =
experienced it with RFC1918). They'll probably resort to NPTv6 to fix =
it, because that is what they're used to, rather than using IPv6's =
address aging mechanisms to renumber to a properly formed ULA. Good luck =
to them, as long as it doesn't effect the rest of us.
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> Yes, both of these a violation of IETF guidance. I don't think that =
matters much, though - while we can always claim that the =
implementer/operator is "holding it wrong", we should be careful that =
what we design/standardize is hard to misconfigure and possibly robust =
in the face of misconfiguration. Subtle nuances like "these addresses =
are global scope, but not globally routable" tend to get lost very =
easily.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> I think recommending against ULAs is just going to result in people =
stealing other address spaces for devices that don't need global =
reachability - like 2001:db8::/32, or unused global address space (as we =
saw with 1/8, 5/8 and other IPv4 prefixes).
>>=20
>> I think global address space comes with and implies a default =
assumption of global reachability, and you'll therefore have to actively =
take measures to ensure they don't provide global reachability if you =
don't want it. Link-locals don't cut it because they're not routable. =
The need ULAs fulfils is the gap in between global space and =
link-locals, and the one which RFC1918 generally fulfils in IPv4, except =
that the likelyhood of address space collision is reduced.
>>=20
>>> Of course, in the case of ULAs, there's not much that can be done =
about the design at this point, but we should make an effort to make it =
clear that the potential for misconfiguration exists and provide clear =
guidance on how not to misconfigure them.
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>=20
>>> Personally, I think that providing said guidance is much more useful =
and important than enumerating scenarios that aren't widely, if at all, =
implemented, and I hope that the authors of =
draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations will agree.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> So is this draft aiming for BCP status and therefore should only =
reflect best common practice? If not, I think it is reasonable to =
present scenarios where ULAs could be useful. We've got a lot of =
experience with private address spaces from IPv4 (the Deprecating Site =
Local Addresses RFC3879 is also a pretty complete list of the problems =
with RFC1918 addresses), so the only real difference is scenarios where =
concurrent global and private address spaces could be useful. In some =
cases, they'll just be more capable versions of what we've already doing =
in IPv4 e.g. private addressed loopbacks on routers, global addresses on =
the links, in a ULA environment you would add ULAs to the links too, =
which could make troubleshooting and other OAM less dependent on the =
global address space.
>>=20
>> Regards,
>> Mark.
>>=20
>>> Cheers,
>>> Lorenzo
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Jeroen Massar <jeroen@massar.ch>
>>> Date: Thu, May 30, 2013 at 4:59 AM
>>> Subject: Usage of fd00::/8 on the Interwebz - something with filters =
and uRPF
>>> To: ipv6-ops@lists.cluenet.de
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> ...
>>> 4  2001:7f8:1::a500:3303:1 (2001:7f8:1::a500:3303:1)  20.755 ms  =
20.763 ms  20.784 ms
>>> 5  fd00:3303::1 (fd00:3303::1)  22.010 ms  21.984 ms  21.986 ms
>>> 6  2a02:120c:1051:d010::1 (2a02:120c:1051:d010::1)  17.806 ms  =
17.889 ms  17.842 ms
>>> 7  2a02:120c:1051:d010::1 (2a02:120c:1051:d010::1)  18.720 ms  =
18.593 ms  18.617 ms
>>> ...
>>>=20
>>> Hmmmm fd00::/8, that really should never ever be visible on the =
Internet, being Unique *LOCAL* Addresses.
>>> And it does not look like they applied the randomness bit for =
picking a prefix either.
>>> You would also almost think that a /28 is more than enough address =
space to put a few router loopbacks in.
>>>=20
>>> It is apparently time for people to start checking their filters =
again because it seems that these packets leak into other ASNs too...
>>>=20
>>> More generally, do recheck your network for BCP38 compliance, please =
do apply it and require your peers to do the same!
>>>=20
>>> Greets,
>>> Jeroen
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>=20
>>>=20
>>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>=20
> _______________________________________________
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From owen@delong.com  Fri May 31 19:17:53 2013
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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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Date: Fri, 31 May 2013 19:14:33 -0700
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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC98DAE@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <03680813-07D9-459B-A229-FA974C9A4B9E@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8E492087-390E-4F8E-8078-1D0E63849243@delong.com> <EMEW3|f3c1b4957f182cbee8e02a76a09ead4dp4Y7Ye03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|03680813-07D9-459B-A229-FA974C9A4B9E@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <CAKD1Yr0E5OUsphjhEaaMTjVarSGNdPEx6e1RyKDs5A=bkHGvBg@mail.gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC992D2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr1c+-S02oWF1GjTdu-Vatee-EgXLKr=2=xdtYOtUubsYQ@mail.gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC99354@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <B001C1A1-DCF6-43AD-A792-56A58661E924@delong.com> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B6307751BD21E@mbx-01.win.nominum.com>
To: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
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Cc: "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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On May 30, 2013, at 12:29 PM, Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com> wrote:

> On May 30, 2013, at 12:08 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>> Not a great assumption... They should need 4 million or more /48s =
since every subscriber is at least one end site and every subscriber end =
site should receive a /48.
>=20
> I am not in love with using bits from prefixes as semantic tags.   =
However, having said that, I think it's a bit ironic that you're talking =
about wasting space with semantic bits, on the one hand, and talking =
about the need for a /48 in every home on the  other.   It would be =
perfectly reasonable for the ISP to specify that some of the bits in the =
/48 have semantic meaning, for example, and given that we think it's =
okay to give the home network a /48, we are hardly in a position to =
quibble about how the bits in that /48 are used.
>=20

The /48 is in order to allow 16 bits of space for automating the =
deployment of hierarchy and routing within the end-site.

I wasn't specific about the nature of the end-site (home or otherwise, =
as I believe all end sites should be treated the same).

Taking away from those bits for ISP semantics (or some antics, depending =
on your perspective) is an entirely different can of worms.

Owen


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<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On May 30, 2013, at 12:29 PM, Ted Lemon &lt;<a href="mailto:Ted.Lemon@nominum.com">Ted.Lemon@nominum.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">

<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
<div>
<div>On May 30, 2013, at 12:08 PM, Owen DeLong &lt;<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Optima; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
Not a great assumption... They should need 4 million or more /48s since every subscriber is at least one end site and every subscriber end site should receive a /48.</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<br>
<div>I am not in love with using bits from prefixes as semantic tags. &nbsp; However, having said that, I think it's a bit ironic that you're talking about wasting space with semantic bits, on the one hand, and talking about the need for a /48 in every home on the
 other. &nbsp; It would be perfectly reasonable for the ISP to specify that some of the bits in the /48 have semantic meaning, for example, and given that we think it's okay to give the home network a /48, we are hardly in a position to quibble about how the bits
 in that /48 are used.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><div>The /48 is in order to allow 16 bits of space for automating the deployment of hierarchy and routing within the end-site.</div><div><br></div><div>I wasn't specific about the nature of the end-site (home or otherwise, as I believe all end sites should be treated the same).</div><div><br></div><div>Taking away from those bits for ISP semantics (or some antics, depending on your perspective) is an entirely different can of worms.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br></div></body></html>
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From Ted.Lemon@nominum.com  Fri May 31 19:21:20 2013
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From: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On May 31, 2013, at 10:01 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
> How is having them leak in attempted TCP connections worse than having th=
em leak in ICMP headers? It's still an invalid header.

The ttl exceeded return packet doesn't expect a return packet of its own, s=
o the fact that there's a "bogus" IP address on the header causes no harm, =
despite being technically wrong.   Filtering the packet based on the source=
 address, on the other hand, would cause harm.   Nobody ever said life was =
going to be simple.


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From: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
Thread-Index: AQHOXm45WoMnwVBJ2U2+cujDGH1pcpkgllOA
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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC98DAE@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <03680813-07D9-459B-A229-FA974C9A4B9E@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8E492087-390E-4F8E-8078-1D0E63849243@delong.com> <EMEW3|f3c1b4957f182cbee8e02a76a09ead4dp4Y7Ye03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|03680813-07D9-459B-A229-FA974C9A4B9E@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <CAKD1Yr0E5OUsphjhEaaMTjVarSGNdPEx6e1RyKDs5A=bkHGvBg@mail.gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC992D2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr1c+-S02oWF1GjTdu-Vatee-EgXLKr=2=xdtYOtUubsYQ@mail.gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC99354@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <B001C1A1-DCF6-43AD-A792-56A58661E924@delong.com> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B6307751BD21E@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <65746D62-1F0E-4FAD-AC6A-270BD5757C8A@delong.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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On May 31, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com<mailto:owen@delo=
ng.com>> wrote:
The /48 is in order to allow 16 bits of space for automating the deployment=
 of hierarchy and routing within the end-site.

Right, which is ludicrous overkill, given that we have two different soluti=
ons for the problem of efficiently distributing prefixes in the home, neith=
er of which require 16 bits of prefix unless you have 64k distinct links in=
 the home.



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<html>
<head>
<meta http-equiv=3D"Content-Type" content=3D"text/html; charset=3Dus-ascii"=
>
</head>
<body style=3D"word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-lin=
e-break: after-white-space; ">
<div>
<div>On May 31, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Owen DeLong &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:owen@d=
elong.com">owen@delong.com</a>&gt;&nbsp;wrote:</div>
<blockquote type=3D"cite">
<div style=3D"font-family: Optima; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; f=
ont-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-heig=
ht: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-tr=
ansform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-t=
ext-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
The /48 is in order to allow 16 bits of space for automating the deployment=
 of hierarchy and routing within the end-site.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<div>Right, which is ludicrous overkill, given that we have two different s=
olutions for the problem of efficiently distributing prefixes in the home, =
neither of which require 16 bits of prefix unless you have 64k distinct lin=
ks in the home.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
</body>
</html>

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From owen@delong.com  Fri May 31 19:47:56 2013
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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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To: Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On May 31, 2013, at 7:21 PM, Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com> wrote:

> On May 31, 2013, at 10:01 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>> How is having them leak in attempted TCP connections worse than =
having them leak in ICMP headers? It's still an invalid header.
>=20
> The ttl exceeded return packet doesn't expect a return packet of its =
own, so the fact that there's a "bogus" IP address on the header causes =
no harm, despite being technically wrong.   Filtering the packet based =
on the source address, on the other hand, would cause harm.   Nobody =
ever said life was going to be simple.

The TTL Exceeded packet shouldn't get forwarded by any router as a =
result of the LL Source address.

Thus it should never reach its destination.

Thus it will break traceroutes.

Thus it is harmful.

Owen


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From: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC98DAE@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <03680813-07D9-459B-A229-FA974C9A4B9E@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <8E492087-390E-4F8E-8078-1D0E63849243@delong.com> <EMEW3|f3c1b4957f182cbee8e02a76a09ead4dp4Y7Ye03tjc|ecs.soton.ac.uk|03680813-07D9-459B-A229-FA974C9A4B9E@ecs.soton.ac.uk> <CAKD1Yr0E5OUsphjhEaaMTjVarSGNdPEx6e1RyKDs5A=bkHGvBg@mail.gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC992D2@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <CAKD1Yr1c+-S02oWF1GjTdu-Vatee-EgXLKr=2=xdtYOtUubsYQ@mail.gmail.com> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC99354@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <B001C1A1-DCF6-43AD-A792-56A58661E924@delong.com> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B6307751BD21E@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <65746D62-1F0E-4FAD-AC6A-270BD5757C8A@delong.com> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B6307751BFE2D@mbx-01.win.nominum.com>
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Cc: "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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On May 31, 2013, at 7:22 PM, Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com> wrote:

> On May 31, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>> The /48 is in order to allow 16 bits of space for automating the =
deployment of hierarchy and routing within the end-site.
>=20
> Right, which is ludicrous overkill, given that we have two different =
solutions for the problem of efficiently distributing prefixes in the =
home, neither of which require 16 bits of prefix unless you have 64k =
distinct links in the home.
>=20
>=20

Please explicate.

What solutions exist today that provide for the home of the future where =
there are, in fact, multiple levels of routers many of which are =
managing routers underneath them with multiple links attached?

How do these solutions adapt to arbitrary topologies and hierarchies as =
they are built in the home?

I've only seen such capabilities in early development stages. I haven't =
seen anything like it deployed in the wild.

Owen


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<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html charset=us-ascii"></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><br><div><div>On May 31, 2013, at 7:22 PM, Ted Lemon &lt;<a href="mailto:Ted.Lemon@nominum.com">Ted.Lemon@nominum.com</a>&gt; wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite">

<meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">

<div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; ">
<div>
<div>On May 31, 2013, at 10:14 PM, Owen DeLong &lt;<a href="mailto:owen@delong.com">owen@delong.com</a>&gt;&nbsp;wrote:</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="font-family: Optima; font-size: medium; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; ">
The /48 is in order to allow 16 bits of space for automating the deployment of hierarchy and routing within the end-site.</div>
</blockquote>
<br>
</div>
<div>Right, which is ludicrous overkill, given that we have two different solutions for the problem of efficiently distributing prefixes in the home, neither of which require 16 bits of prefix unless you have 64k distinct links in the home.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<br>
</div>

</blockquote></div><br><div>Please explicate.</div><div><br></div><div>What solutions exist today that provide for the home of the future where there are, in fact, multiple levels of routers many of which are managing routers underneath them with multiple links attached?</div><div><br></div><div>How do these solutions adapt to arbitrary topologies and hierarchies as they are built in the home?</div><div><br></div><div>I've only seen such capabilities in early development stages. I haven't seen anything like it deployed in the wild.</div><div><br></div><div>Owen</div><div><br></div></body></html>
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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC98DAE@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <51A71ACA.3000608@globis.net> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC994A0@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <51A733E1.7040008@globis.net> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC99A07@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <51A841B5.3010805@globis.net> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC99CF4@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <6B838546-4FB3-4EDB-9F84-D8CF0AF3080D@millnert.se> <51A87174.3080204@globis.net> <8D23D4052ABE7A4490E77B1A012B6307751BE653@mbx-01.win.nominum.com> <4EF22CF5-7BF1-4FF5-8696-C3EC2CEC3427@gmail.com>
From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 12:12:49 +0900
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Cc: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>, "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 11:02 PM, bingxuere@gmail.com
<bingxuere@gmail.com>wrote:

> [Qiong] I'm trying to answer this question from operator's aspect. When we
> are trying to encode semantics e.g service type, subscriber type, etc., in
> some flag, it should have the following features:
> 1) It should exist and be encoded from the beginning. Otherwise, we still
> need to introduce dpi-related system to identify certain services, which I
> believe is not scalable.
> 2) It cannot be changed along the path. Otherwise, there will be trust
> issue and may be changed to a different value without notice.
> 3) It can be easily treated in existing routers. In the ideal way, it does
> not need to introduce new functionality so that all our existing routers
> can deal with it. This can greatly reduce our upgrading cost.
> These are major reasons that we embed semantics in prefixes.  But I'm
> still open suggestions if there is a better choice.
>

DSCP does all of those today. All you need to do is ensure that you always
mark the packets on ingress.

--089e0160bbb26927fd04de0f1c22
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 11:02 PM, <a href=3D"mailto:bingxu=
ere@gmail.com">bingxuere@gmail.com</a> <span dir=3D"ltr">&lt;<a href=3D"mai=
lto:bingxuere@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank">bingxuere@gmail.com</a>&gt;</spa=
n> wrote:<br>

<div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><blockquote class=3D"=
gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-=
left:1ex">[Qiong] I&#39;m trying to answer this question from operator&#39;=
s aspect. When we are trying to encode semantics e.g service type, subscrib=
er type, etc., in some flag, it should have the following features:<br>


1) It should exist and be encoded from the beginning. Otherwise, we still n=
eed to introduce dpi-related system to identify certain services, which I b=
elieve is not scalable.<br>
2) It cannot be changed along the path. Otherwise, there will be trust issu=
e and may be changed to a different value without notice.<br>
3) It can be easily treated in existing routers. In the ideal way, it does =
not need to introduce new functionality so that all our existing routers ca=
n deal with it. This can greatly reduce our upgrading cost.<br>
These are major reasons that we embed semantics in prefixes. =A0But I&#39;m=
 still open suggestions if there is a better choice.<br></blockquote><div><=
br></div><div style>DSCP does all of those today. All you need to do is ens=
ure that you always mark the packets on ingress.=A0</div>

</div></div></div>

--089e0160bbb26927fd04de0f1c22--

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From: Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Jun 2013 12:19:16 +0900
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com> wrote:

> On May 30, 2013, at 6:07 PM, Jeroen Massar <jeroen@massar.ch> wrote:
> > If you know how to replicate it, I am very interested in a packet dump
> > or what is involved to cause it.
>
> Just number your internal network using ULAs and no global addresses, and
> then run a traceroute across it.   Global addresses on the source end,
> global addresses on the destination end, ULAs in the middle.   The only way
> to "fix" this is to break traceroute.   This does not represent brokenness.


RFC 4193 section 4.3 disagrees with you. It says that border routers should
drop those packets and send back ICMP unreachables.

--047d7bd7566a82946b04de0f331c
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<div dir=3D"ltr">On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Ted Lemon <span dir=3D"l=
tr">&lt;<a href=3D"mailto:Ted.Lemon@nominum.com" target=3D"_blank">Ted.Lemo=
n@nominum.com</a>&gt;</span> wrote:<br><div class=3D"gmail_extra"><div clas=
s=3D"gmail_quote">

<blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-=
left-width:1px;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-style:solid;p=
adding-left:1ex"><div class=3D"im">On May 30, 2013, at 6:07 PM, Jeroen Mass=
ar &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:jeroen@massar.ch">jeroen@massar.ch</a>&gt; wrote:<=
br>


&gt; If you know how to replicate it, I am very interested in a packet dump=
<br>
&gt; or what is involved to cause it.<br>
<br>
</div>Just number your internal network using ULAs and no global addresses,=
 and then run a traceroute across it. =A0 Global addresses on the source en=
d, global addresses on the destination end, ULAs in the middle. =A0 The onl=
y way to &quot;fix&quot; this is to break traceroute. =A0 This does not rep=
resent brokenness.</blockquote>

<div><br></div><div style>RFC 4193 section 4.3 disagrees with you. It says =
that border routers should drop those packets and send back ICMP unreachabl=
es.</div></div></div></div>

--047d7bd7566a82946b04de0f331c--

From shane@castlepoint.net  Fri May 31 20:20:34 2013
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References: <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC98DAE@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <51A71ACA.3000608@globis.net> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC994A0@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <51A733E1.7040008@globis.net> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC99A07@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <51A841B5.3010805@globis.net> <5D36713D8A4E7348A7E10DF7437A4B923AC99CF4@nkgeml512-mbx.china.huawei.com> <6B838546-4FB3-4EDB-9F84-D8CF0AF3080D@millnert.se> <51A87174.3080204@globis.net>
To: Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net>
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Cc: "<v6ops@ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org" <draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix@tools.ietf.org>, "ipv6@ietf.org" <ipv6@ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Could IPv6 address be more than locator?//draft-jiang-v6ops-semantic-prefix-03
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Hi Sheng, Ray,

On May 31, 2013, at 3:46 AM, Ray Hunter <v6ops@globis.net> wrote:
[--snip--]
> But why are people coming up with these schemes for encoding semantics
> in the address prefixes in the first place? That's what I'd like to
> understand first and foremost: what lack of functionality is
> motivating/forcing these people to adopt such schemes?

+1. =20

In one part of the draft, Section 2.1, it appears to suggest that =
packets coming in to the border of an SP boundary are "untrusted", =
therefore existing packet header fields (e.g.: IPv6 TC) cannot be =
trusted.  If incoming packets are untrusted:
- why doesn't the SP deploy unicast RPF to drop incoming packets with an =
illegitimate source IP address/prefix?
- more importantly, how is an SP able to _trust_ and somehow enforce =
that the prefixes that it is handing out (dynamically via DHCP?) are =
being properly assigned according the policies governing the mapping of =
semantic prefix <-> user-type/application/security-domain/etc.?

-shane=


From brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com  Fri May 31 21:07:10 2013
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Date: Sat, 01 Jun 2013 16:07:17 +1200
From: Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>
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To: Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com>
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" <v6ops@ietf.org>, "draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org" <draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-recommendations@tools.ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On 01/06/2013 14:44, Owen DeLong wrote:
> On May 31, 2013, at 7:21 PM, Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com> wrote:
> 
>> On May 31, 2013, at 10:01 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>>> How is having them leak in attempted TCP connections worse than having them leak in ICMP headers? It's still an invalid header.
>> The ttl exceeded return packet doesn't expect a return packet of its own, so the fact that there's a "bogus" IP address on the header causes no harm, despite being technically wrong.   Filtering the packet based on the source address, on the other hand, would cause harm.   Nobody ever said life was going to be simple.
> 
> The TTL Exceeded packet shouldn't get forwarded by any router as a result of the LL Source address.
> 
> Thus it should never reach its destination.

Agreed. But when it does get through, it does no particular
harm (you just see a bizarre hop in the traceroute). If it got
through in a SYN/ACK exchange, it would probably distress a user.

> 
> Thus it will break traceroutes.
> 
> Thus it is harmful.

I'm not defending bad practice; just observing that it doesn't
cause a disaster in traceroute.

    Brian

From jeroen@massar.ch  Fri May 31 21:31:28 2013
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On 2013-05-31 21:07, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
[..]
> Agreed. But when it does get through, it does no particular
> harm (you just see a bizarre hop in the traceroute). If it got
> through in a SYN/ACK exchange, it would probably distress a user.

If such a packet gets through it means BCP38 is not applied as things
are not properly filtered.

And likely thus one can spoof at one's hearts content and that does do
lots of harm.

Greets,
 Jeroen


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On May 31, 2013, at 9:31 PM, Jeroen Massar <jeroen@massar.ch> wrote:

> On 2013-05-31 21:07, Brian E Carpenter wrote:
> [..]
>> Agreed. But when it does get through, it does no particular
>> harm (you just see a bizarre hop in the traceroute). If it got
>> through in a SYN/ACK exchange, it would probably distress a user.
>=20
> If such a packet gets through it means BCP38 is not applied as things
> are not properly filtered.
>=20

This has nothing to do with BCP38.

Any router which forwards a packet containing a link local address in =
the header is broken regardless of any BCP38 configuration.

Owen


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On May 31, 2013, at 9:07 PM, Brian E Carpenter =
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 01/06/2013 14:44, Owen DeLong wrote:
>> On May 31, 2013, at 7:21 PM, Ted Lemon <Ted.Lemon@nominum.com> wrote:
>>=20
>>> On May 31, 2013, at 10:01 PM, Owen DeLong <owen@delong.com> wrote:
>>>> How is having them leak in attempted TCP connections worse than =
having them leak in ICMP headers? It's still an invalid header.
>>> The ttl exceeded return packet doesn't expect a return packet of its =
own, so the fact that there's a "bogus" IP address on the header causes =
no harm, despite being technically wrong.   Filtering the packet based =
on the source address, on the other hand, would cause harm.   Nobody =
ever said life was going to be simple.
>>=20
>> The TTL Exceeded packet shouldn't get forwarded by any router as a =
result of the LL Source address.
>>=20
>> Thus it should never reach its destination.
>=20
> Agreed. But when it does get through, it does no particular
> harm (you just see a bizarre hop in the traceroute). If it got
> through in a SYN/ACK exchange, it would probably distress a user.
>=20

If it gets through, then it is an indication that every router between =
the one that sourced the packet and the recipient host is broken.

True, the packet itself is "mostly harmless", but=85

>>=20
>> Thus it will break traceroutes.
>>=20
>> Thus it is harmful.
>=20
> I'm not defending bad practice; just observing that it doesn't
> cause a disaster in trace route.

And I'm saying that if any of the routers between the LL-packet =
generating router and the recipient are working correctly, it does, in =
fact, break traceroute.

Owen


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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On 2013-05-31 21:33, Owen DeLong wrote:
> 
> On May 31, 2013, at 9:31 PM, Jeroen Massar <jeroen@massar.ch> wrote:
> 
>> On 2013-05-31 21:07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: [..]
>>> Agreed. But when it does get through, it does no particular harm
>>> (you just see a bizarre hop in the traceroute). If it got through
>>> in a SYN/ACK exchange, it would probably distress a user.
>> 
>> If such a packet gets through it means BCP38 is not applied as
>> things are not properly filtered.
>> 
> 
> This has nothing to do with BCP38.

I would say it has everything to do with it actually ;)

Especially as it covers checking ALL traffic being forwarded and doing a
simple source check on them.

> Any router which forwards a packet containing a link local address in
> the header is broken regardless of any BCP38 configuration.

And BCP38 (Section 3, please read it, it is really informative ;) is
inclusive of those requirements. Of course do also take into account
BCP84 which details things a lot more.

Note that you have a fe80::/10 on every single interface, thus receiving
such packets from another box and trying to forward it to another
interface is just not right as it would fail uRPF do it being present on
multiple interfaces.

Greets,
 Jeroen

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Subject: Re: [v6ops] A good example of why we need to careful about ULAs
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My point is that link local packets shouldn't even get far enough for BCP38 t=
o matter. Every router is required to not forward then no matter what. If th=
e packet gets far enough into the forwarding process for your BCP38 filters t=
o matter, then you need a software update for the router.=20

Owen

On May 31, 2013, at 23:50, Jeroen Massar <jeroen@massar.ch> wrote:

> On 2013-05-31 21:33, Owen DeLong wrote:
>>=20
>> On May 31, 2013, at 9:31 PM, Jeroen Massar <jeroen@massar.ch> wrote:
>>=20
>>> On 2013-05-31 21:07, Brian E Carpenter wrote: [..]
>>>> Agreed. But when it does get through, it does no particular harm
>>>> (you just see a bizarre hop in the traceroute). If it got through
>>>> in a SYN/ACK exchange, it would probably distress a user.
>>>=20
>>> If such a packet gets through it means BCP38 is not applied as
>>> things are not properly filtered.
>>>=20
>>=20
>> This has nothing to do with BCP38.
>=20
> I would say it has everything to do with it actually ;)
>=20
> Especially as it covers checking ALL traffic being forwarded and doing a
> simple source check on them.
>=20
>> Any router which forwards a packet containing a link local address in
>> the header is broken regardless of any BCP38 configuration.
>=20
> And BCP38 (Section 3, please read it, it is really informative ;) is
> inclusive of those requirements. Of course do also take into account
> BCP84 which details things a lot more.
>=20
> Note that you have a fe80::/10 on every single interface, thus receiving
> such packets from another box and trying to forward it to another
> interface is just not right as it would fail uRPF do it being present on
> multiple interfaces.
>=20
> Greets,
> Jeroen
