From nobody Tue Dec 1 05:12:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF9E31B2D15 for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 05:11:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.86 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.86 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HELO_EQ_DE=0.35, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jpIQzwLY4vuH for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 05:11:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from tcmail93.telekom.de (tcmail93.telekom.de [80.149.113.205]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 597831B2D0F for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 05:11:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from s4de8nsazdfe010.bmbg.telekom.de ([10.175.246.202]) by tcmail91.telekom.de with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA; 01 Dec 2015 14:11:20 +0100 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,369,1444687200"; d="scan'208";a="786412127" Received: from he111510.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.206.92.113]) by q4de8nsa015.bmbg.telekom.de with ESMTP/TLS/AES128-SHA; 01 Dec 2015 14:11:17 +0100 Received: from HE111507.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([10.206.92.89]) by HE111510.emea1.cds.t-internal.com ([::1]) with mapi; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 14:11:16 +0100 From: To: Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 14:11:15 +0100 Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC Thread-Index: AdEq2Dx5SGv4nT8WRX6YRd+6UpCuFAApMpiQ Message-ID: <88CAA5385EB5404392BF93106C8C53F8AED5357036@HE111507.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> References: <201511291900.tATJ04fK009754@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <201511291900.tATJ04fK009754@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US, de-DE Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: acceptlanguage: en-US, de-DE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 13:11:58 -0000 Hello, some comments: - draft-anderson-v6ops-siit-eam is now on version 03, and in the RFC Editor= queue - should RFC6145bis waint until the EAM RFC is published to get the = references right? - A.1 step 1 suggests that the IPv6 host must perform the formation of the = IPv6 destination address from the IPv4 address of the peer on its own, know= ing the address mapping algorithm. Should it be mentioned here that the map= ping could have been done externally, e.g. by a AAAA DNS entry or inband si= gnalling, so that the mapping algorithm does not need to be known on the v6= host (same applies for A.2)? - 3.1: Translation of the Source and Destination Address: While the algorit= hms are stated, it is unclear to me what the translator should do if it fin= ds a translation only for the source address, but not for the destination a= ddress, and vice versa? Section 5 says that RFC6052 is the default mapping,= but this is a "SHOULD" so we could end up in a situation where not both so= urce and destination address can be translated at the same time. Holger -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- Von: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von fred@cisco.com Gesendet: Sonntag, 29. November 2015 20:00 An: v6ops@ietf.org Betreff: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC This is to initiate a two week working group last call of http://tools.ietf= .org/html/draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis. =20 Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested word= ing changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such= as disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that need to = be addressed, please post your comments to the list. We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the document = as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to be = of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Tue Dec 1 07:26:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDCDB1A008A for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 07:26:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Lr9tZU1Dxmba for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 07:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from web01.jbserver.net (web01.jbserver.net [IPv6:2a00:8240:6:a::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 31E041A002C for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 07:26:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [181.165.125.191] (helo=[192.168.3.107]) by web01.jbserver.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1a3moe-0000z9-H3; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 16:26:04 +0100 To: holger.metschulat@telekom.de, v6ops@ietf.org References: <201511291900.tATJ04fK009754@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> <88CAA5385EB5404392BF93106C8C53F8AED5357036@HE111507.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> From: Fernando Gont X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <565DBC4A.7070301@si6networks.com> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 12:27:06 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <88CAA5385EB5404392BF93106C8C53F8AED5357036@HE111507.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 15:26:13 -0000 Hi, Holger, One quick answer: On 12/01/2015 10:11 AM, holger.metschulat@telekom.de wrote: > Hello, > > some comments: > > - draft-anderson-v6ops-siit-eam is now on version 03, and in the RFC Editor queue - should RFC6145bis waint until the EAM RFC is published to get the references right? It will happen that way, anyway. We still ahve to go through IETF LC and IESG review... so draft-anderson-v6ops-siit-eam will be published first, and by the time the RFC Editor works on the I-D, all the outdated references will be updated to the current ones -- including the one you point out. Thanks! Cheers, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Tue Dec 1 14:58:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 025891AD35F for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 14:58:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nSHy5sZtT8-q for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 14:58:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs-a.tc.umn.edu (vs-a.tc.umn.edu [134.84.119.220]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E0911AD35D for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 14:58:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f180.google.com (mail-ig0-f180.google.com [209.85.213.180]) by vs-a.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); for ; Tue, 1 Dec 2015 16:58:25 -0600 (CST) X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] mail-ig0-f180.google.com [209.85.213.180] #+LO+TS+TR X-Umn-Classification: local Received: by igcph11 with SMTP id ph11so98570048igc.1 for ; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 14:58:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=umn.edu; s=google; h=reply-to:subject:references:to:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=k4M5UDrvicp/wUIC0yE9NFOEdGjpcz7Haq0oezlP7gE=; b=Ys5VnrSBT22NodNNq2+x3JWJLuxgrxEJzkw/20itxSdHoGnw1jAQxU13geKz1Hmy4z KYfp9c7EjUXwZLjH2nXkkr7aEFTMJ/AViGlMliUPB5X/zJiwKk5SnZfR9sxMQXHWrNc6 Oh+azBUnaOrVXlUrxTxaV3L4Ma7HDM2ZshomE= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:reply-to:subject:references:to:cc:from :organization:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=k4M5UDrvicp/wUIC0yE9NFOEdGjpcz7Haq0oezlP7gE=; b=P/983KczPI+IgXACq7MFS4iUfEWYVjnBhu4e3wycboIczR+eQSLwaiy9tUfbfMAux4 0iiUcxSCi47QL48qZv4hHWQqKcZaoaHwqZD7SYqT6gaxwe3rm6ECDoxmZNonKym+4Fh4 cfasZMuISmhmZkhrs8v1jlwM5zixUbAakLbBhORfKlBeZl1w98EohzQfXTGz3aJ27skm Tm7F2yTGmrXoVnEhb0O3/qKCn+HZSnbrIUShlrl0FEYi8qCZ9b6TdNQtQbT7RRVNpdNS Rw1Y5kxv10UzykX2zPWajFOeluK0UQ7k7Db241lXYFlUrtBBXRMF21EU9pr7Kg6unLRO pixw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn/UpbbMIB8T38EX9rlnffzrHj649O6LVq1iws5iP27Nkx+d4lRcdcuU5enWU+9gSdiN8EH9qg1doZneB1DzuFQsxILyAohlvDr65iKISQcSNoNgjL1Dl2FT934V7N4fX8C1DUG X-Received: by 10.50.118.105 with SMTP id kl9mr527048igb.21.1449010704871; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 14:58:24 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.50.118.105 with SMTP id kl9mr527038igb.21.1449010704686; Tue, 01 Dec 2015 14:58:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from x-10-104-134-216.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu ([2607:ea00:107:2001:51ce:a7c:793a:409a]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id cl9sm211519igb.16.2015.12.01.14.58.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 01 Dec 2015 14:58:23 -0800 (PST) References: <201511291900.tATJ04fK009754@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> To: fred@cisco.com, v6ops@ietf.org From: David Farmer Organization: University of Minnesota Message-ID: <565E260C.8090500@umn.edu> Date: Tue, 1 Dec 2015 16:58:20 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <201511291900.tATJ04fK009754@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: David Farmer List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Dec 2015 22:58:28 -0000 I echo the three nits below from Brian that don't seem to have been addressed. I'll add the acknowledgements section alludes to the changes by thanking people for some of them, while that it good, its not sufficient. Without a summary of the changes it was difficult to review the document properly. Thanks. On 7/4/15 15:23 , Brian E Carpenter wrote: > There are nits: > >> This document updates RFC 6145. > > Surely that should be "obsoletes" (if not, it isn't a "bis" document). > > IMHO, unless you have explicit permission from the author of RFC 2765, > you still need the boilerplate. > > A short "Changes from RFC6145" appendix would be useful. > > Regards > Brian On 11/29/15 13:00 , fred@cisco.com wrote: > This is to initiate a two week working group last call of > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis. > Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested > wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you find greater > issues, such as disagreeing with a statement or finding additional > issues that need to be addressed, please post your comments to the > list. > > We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the > document as well as its content. If you have read the document and > believe it to be of operational utility, that is also an important > comment to make. > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > -- ================================================ David Farmer Email: farmer@umn.edu Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 1-612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 1-612-812-9952 ================================================ From nobody Wed Dec 2 08:09:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A89F1AD0EA for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2015 08:09:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.909 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.909 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tniqV_dur2DX for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2015 08:09:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (relais-nor36.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B8A8D1AC3CF for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2015 08:09:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.64]) by opfednr22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id EC0432077F for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2015 17:09:53 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.66]) by opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 24E471A01B9 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2015 16:57:06 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILMA1.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::95e2:eb4b:3053:fabf%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Wed, 2 Dec 2015 16:57:05 +0100 From: To: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC Thread-Index: AdEq2Dx5SGv4nT8WRX6YRd+6UpCuFAApMpiQAGcDUMA= Date: Wed, 2 Dec 2015 15:57:05 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA56ED@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <201511291900.tATJ04fK009754@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> <88CAA5385EB5404392BF93106C8C53F8AED5357036@HE111507.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> In-Reply-To: <88CAA5385EB5404392BF93106C8C53F8AED5357036@HE111507.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.5] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 02 Dec 2015 16:09:58 -0000 Hi all, draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis incudes an "Obsoletes" header but the abstract t= ext indicates the draft updates RFC 6145. =20 Given the list of documents that reference RFC6145 (see the list in https:/= /datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6145/referencedby/) wouldn't just be OK if thi= s document focuses on UPDATES to RFC6145 rather than obsoleting it. Cheers, Med >=20 > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von fred@cisco.com > Gesendet: Sonntag, 29. November 2015 20:00 > An: v6ops@ietf.org > Betreff: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC >=20 > This is to initiate a two week working group last call of > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis. > Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested > wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you find greater issues= , > such as disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that > need to be addressed, please post your comments to the list. >=20 > We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the documen= t > as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to b= e > of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Wed Dec 2 16:09:37 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 313FA1B2EA7 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2015 16:09:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QWnTvm5AJA3u for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2015 16:09:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22f.google.com (mail-pa0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AB461B2EA9 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2015 16:09:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by pacdm15 with SMTP id dm15so54516160pac.3 for ; Wed, 02 Dec 2015 16:09:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ACFG+Me8dmEnA+IKCnOOKdXwLdrXyhsaE36N8M3WNdY=; b=dDeT7UXpT4jT8dyN5PzaFHUQLSLAbTFO0KOwXGSO6sduCVXnyY9tTM/s01CHrCnbkp M7owCmn0ITNlBD58bB72zDPM6aiQsvAeKWcYlG5MKiGh/P520/Vn6wuapqEgaO2Ur14B MIBXjeL+aX0Z0PsHfGMlmjhbQDjdDHGBZHRBkYOsraAhQDJW17t8R679CDu6k21dE9Ph PI2R3QcsyojlLbtnw1/kNekfEG/R0rQtwMhI3l+w3nm8rSiL1ujhI6j+vFbO2kmTELfM 8G5pIIBDoq2RPcEZH5hAlrjGoYhVT6Ds0ZbbUdjqTq1H9LEaMX0uVWzfG6JiNaVYEKYA +mQQ== X-Received: by 10.98.44.137 with SMTP id s131mr8923340pfs.11.1449101373073; Wed, 02 Dec 2015 16:09:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:6e99:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:6e99:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q65sm6561813pfa.18.2015.12.02.16.09.30 for (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 02 Dec 2015 16:09:31 -0800 (PST) To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <201511291900.tATJ04fK009754@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> <88CAA5385EB5404392BF93106C8C53F8AED5357036@HE111507.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA56ED@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <565F8841.9000209@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 13:09:37 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA56ED@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2015 00:09:36 -0000 On 03/12/2015 04:57, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis incudes an "Obsoletes" header but the abstra= ct text indicates the draft updates RFC 6145. =20 >=20 > Given the list of documents that reference RFC6145 (see the list in htt= ps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6145/referencedby/) wouldn't just be OK = if this document focuses on UPDATES to RFC6145 rather than obsoleting it.= But if it's a bis document, by definition it obsoletes the original. If there are any useful parts of 6145 that are missing from 6145bis, that's a bug. Of course we often have references to obsolete documents. That's a genera= l problem with RFCs. See https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-klensin-isdbis-0= 0. Brian >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 >> >> -----Urspr=C3=BCngliche Nachricht----- >> Von: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] Im Auftrag von fred@cisco.c= om >> Gesendet: Sonntag, 29. November 2015 20:00 >> An: v6ops@ietf.org >> Betreff: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC >> >> This is to initiate a two week working group last call of >> http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis. >> Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested= >> wording changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you find greater iss= ues, >> such as disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that= >> need to be addressed, please post your comments to the list. >> >> We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the docu= ment >> as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it t= o be >> of operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 From nobody Wed Dec 2 22:35:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 65D1C1B3177 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2015 22:35:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7kk61GDYSisL for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2015 22:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.francetelecom.com (relais-ias91.francetelecom.com [193.251.215.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 828701B2F78 for ; Wed, 2 Dec 2015 22:35:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.4]) by omfedm14.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 08E4222C364; Thu, 3 Dec 2015 07:35:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [10.114.31.57]) by omfedm08.si.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id DF50F23806B; Thu, 3 Dec 2015 07:35:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::787e:db0c:23c4:71b3%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0248.002; Thu, 3 Dec 2015 07:35:54 +0100 From: To: Brian E Carpenter , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC Thread-Index: AdEq2Dx5SGv4nT8WRX6YRd+6UpCuFAApMpiQAGcDUMAAD1vkgAAPeekA Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 06:35:53 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CAEC70@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <201511291900.tATJ04fK009754@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> <88CAA5385EB5404392BF93106C8C53F8AED5357036@HE111507.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA56ED@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <565F8841.9000209@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <565F8841.9000209@gmail.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-PMX-Version: 6.2.1.2478543, Antispam-Engine: 2.7.2.2107409, Antispam-Data: 2015.12.3.61515 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Dec 2015 06:35:58 -0000 SGkgQnJpYW4sIA0KDQpNeSBjb21tZW50IGlzIHRoYXQgSSdtIG5vdCBzdXJlIGhhdmluZyBhIGJp cyBkb2N1bWVudCBpcyB0aGUgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgd2F5IHRvIHByb2NlZWQuIEkgZG8gdGhpbmsg aGF2aW5nIGEgYnJpZWYgYW5kIGNvbmNpc2UgZG9jdW1lbnQgd2l0aCB1cGRhdGVzIHRvIFJGQzYx NDUgd291bGQgYmUgc3VmZmljaWVudC4gDQoNClRoYW5rIHlvdS4NCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KTWVkDQoN Cj4gLS0tLS1NZXNzYWdlIGQnb3JpZ2luZS0tLS0tDQo+IERlwqA6IHY2b3BzIFttYWlsdG86djZv cHMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gRGUgbGEgcGFydCBkZSBCcmlhbiBFIENhcnBlbnRlcg0KPiBF bnZvecOpwqA6IGpldWRpIDMgZMOpY2VtYnJlIDIwMTUgMDE6MTANCj4gw4DCoDogdjZvcHNAaWV0 Zi5vcmcNCj4gT2JqZXTCoDogUmU6IFt2Nm9wc10gZHJhZnQtYmFvLXY2b3BzLXJmYzYxNDViaXMg V0dMQw0KPiANCj4gT24gMDMvMTIvMjAxNSAwNDo1NywgbW9oYW1lZC5ib3VjYWRhaXJAb3Jhbmdl LmNvbSB3cm90ZToNCj4gPiBIaSBhbGwsDQo+ID4NCj4gPiBkcmFmdC1iYW8tdjZvcHMtcmZjNjE0 NWJpcyBpbmN1ZGVzIGFuICJPYnNvbGV0ZXMiIGhlYWRlciBidXQgdGhlDQo+IGFic3RyYWN0IHRl eHQgaW5kaWNhdGVzIHRoZSBkcmFmdCB1cGRhdGVzIFJGQyA2MTQ1Lg0KPiA+DQo+ID4gR2l2ZW4g dGhlIGxpc3Qgb2YgZG9jdW1lbnRzIHRoYXQgcmVmZXJlbmNlIFJGQzYxNDUgKHNlZSB0aGUgbGlz dCBpbg0KPiBodHRwczovL2RhdGF0cmFja2VyLmlldGYub3JnL2RvYy9yZmM2MTQ1L3JlZmVyZW5j ZWRieS8pIHdvdWxkbid0IGp1c3QgYmUNCj4gT0sgaWYgdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCBmb2N1c2VzIG9u IFVQREFURVMgdG8gUkZDNjE0NSByYXRoZXIgdGhhbiBvYnNvbGV0aW5nDQo+IGl0Lg0KPiANCj4g QnV0IGlmIGl0J3MgYSBiaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQsIGJ5IGRlZmluaXRpb24gaXQgb2Jzb2xldGVzIHRo ZSBvcmlnaW5hbC4NCj4gSWYgdGhlcmUgYXJlIGFueSB1c2VmdWwgcGFydHMgb2YgNjE0NSB0aGF0 IGFyZSBtaXNzaW5nIGZyb20gNjE0NWJpcywNCj4gdGhhdCdzIGEgYnVnLg0KPiANCj4gT2YgY291 cnNlIHdlIG9mdGVuIGhhdmUgcmVmZXJlbmNlcyB0byBvYnNvbGV0ZSBkb2N1bWVudHMuIFRoYXQn cyBhIGdlbmVyYWwNCj4gcHJvYmxlbSB3aXRoIFJGQ3MuIFNlZSBodHRwczovL3Rvb2xzLmlldGYu b3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQta2xlbnNpbi1pc2RiaXMtDQo+IDAwLg0KPiANCj4gICAgQnJpYW4NCj4g DQo+ID4NCj4gPiBDaGVlcnMsDQo+ID4gTWVkDQo+ID4NCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4gLS0tLS1VcnNwcsO8 bmdsaWNoZSBOYWNocmljaHQtLS0tLQ0KPiA+PiBWb246IHY2b3BzIFttYWlsdG86djZvcHMtYm91 bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gSW0gQXVmdHJhZyB2b24NCj4gZnJlZEBjaXNjby5jb20NCj4gPj4gR2Vz ZW5kZXQ6IFNvbm50YWcsIDI5LiBOb3ZlbWJlciAyMDE1IDIwOjAwDQo+ID4+IEFuOiB2Nm9wc0Bp ZXRmLm9yZw0KPiA+PiBCZXRyZWZmOiBbdjZvcHNdIGRyYWZ0LWJhby12Nm9wcy1yZmM2MTQ1Ymlz IFdHTEMNCj4gPj4NCj4gPj4gVGhpcyBpcyB0byBpbml0aWF0ZSBhIHR3byB3ZWVrIHdvcmtpbmcg Z3JvdXAgbGFzdCBjYWxsIG9mDQo+ID4+IGh0dHA6Ly90b29scy5pZXRmLm9yZy9odG1sL2RyYWZ0 LWJhby12Nm9wcy1yZmM2MTQ1YmlzLg0KPiA+PiBQbGVhc2UgcmVhZCBpdCBub3cuIElmIHlvdSBm aW5kIG5pdHMgKHNwZWxsaW5nIGVycm9ycywgbWlub3Igc3VnZ2VzdGVkDQo+ID4+IHdvcmRpbmcg Y2hhbmdlcywgZXRjKSwgY29tbWVudCB0byB0aGUgYXV0aG9yczsgaWYgeW91IGZpbmQgZ3JlYXRl cg0KPiBpc3N1ZXMsDQo+ID4+IHN1Y2ggYXMgZGlzYWdyZWVpbmcgd2l0aCBhIHN0YXRlbWVudCBv ciBmaW5kaW5nIGFkZGl0aW9uYWwgaXNzdWVzIHRoYXQNCj4gPj4gbmVlZCB0byBiZSBhZGRyZXNz ZWQsIHBsZWFzZSBwb3N0IHlvdXIgY29tbWVudHMgdG8gdGhlIGxpc3QuDQo+ID4+DQo+ID4+IFdl IGFyZSBsb29raW5nIHNwZWNpZmljYWxseSBmb3IgY29tbWVudHMgb24gdGhlIGltcG9ydGFuY2Ug b2YgdGhlDQo+IGRvY3VtZW50DQo+ID4+IGFzIHdlbGwgYXMgaXRzIGNvbnRlbnQuIElmIHlvdSBo YXZlIHJlYWQgdGhlIGRvY3VtZW50IGFuZCBiZWxpZXZlIGl0IHRvDQo+IGJlDQo+ID4+IG9mIG9w ZXJhdGlvbmFsIHV0aWxpdHksIHRoYXQgaXMgYWxzbyBhbiBpbXBvcnRhbnQgY29tbWVudCB0byBt YWtlLg0KPiA+Pg0KPiA+PiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fXw0KPiA+PiB2Nm9wcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gPj4gdjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4g Pj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby92Nm9wcw0KPiA+Pg0KPiA+ PiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiA+PiB2 Nm9wcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gPj4gdjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gPj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby92Nm9wcw0KPiA+DQo+ID4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gPiB2Nm9wcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QN Cj4gPiB2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiA+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlz dGluZm8vdjZvcHMNCj4gPg0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gdjZvcHMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IHY2b3BzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdjZvcHMNCg== From nobody Thu Dec 3 16:14:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F27FF1B29DF for ; Thu, 3 Dec 2015 16:14:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i0v0mg0zeKQ1 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 2015 16:14:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from web01.jbserver.net (web01.jbserver.net [IPv6:2a00:8240:6:a::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A85411B29D6 for ; Thu, 3 Dec 2015 16:14:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [181.165.125.191] (helo=[192.168.2.101]) by web01.jbserver.net with esmtpsa (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.86) (envelope-from ) id 1a4e0W-0008V2-Ig; Fri, 04 Dec 2015 01:13:54 +0100 To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <201511291900.tATJ04fK009754@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> <88CAA5385EB5404392BF93106C8C53F8AED5357036@HE111507.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA56ED@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Fernando Gont X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <5660DAEF.6050004@gont.com.ar> Date: Thu, 3 Dec 2015 21:14:39 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933008CA56ED@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2015 00:14:08 -0000 On 12/02/2015 12:57 PM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote: > Hi all, > > draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis incudes an "Obsoletes" header but the > abstract text indicates the draft updates RFC 6145. > > Given the list of documents that reference RFC6145 (see the list in > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/rfc6145/referencedby/) wouldn't just > be OK if this document focuses on UPDATES to RFC6145 rather than > obsoleting it. Not really. Even with just the bit about deprecation of atomic framgents, you get a rather long "diff" that spans the whole document. The diff becomes hard to read, and 6145 also becomes had to read, since you know it's patched all over the place. There's nothing wrong with obsoleting RFC6145. RFC6145bis takes its place... so it's not that "now all out of the sudden the RFC they were referencing is gone". I think the current path is the right one. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont e-mail: fernando@gont.com.ar || fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 7809 84F5 322E 45C7 F1C9 3945 96EE A9EF D076 FFF1 From nobody Sun Dec 6 11:00:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DAB71B2AA1 for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:00:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -113.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-113.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IXHASH_X1=1.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nipOpYcwmOBb for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:00:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DC711B2A9B for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:00:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=129; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1449428405; x=1450638005; h=date:from:message-id:to:subject:cc; bh=4kIRMaErY1jozgSq+oF7sLMWlB9Xgi2sO31pBVcvju4=; b=fScOlnGNNHfCIBQXr3QiRHYc6hz5wC0Gh2zgdcydJpBiiHBXLojrHkC1 +gcZuMjyxrbBWzj3SBgwAKpqyS/M7XSRI0gNTsQS1cqmBrXsYIJbcetK8 FaVgfRFaU8cNHdgmOTQc1BYUnyzTB4YJJ4fttxseHlTxI4uY8Gx2a8yEA M=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,391,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="56784972" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 06 Dec 2015 19:00:05 +0000 Received: from irp-lnx1.cisco.com (irp-lnx1.cisco.com [171.70.41.115]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tB6J04gH005738 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Dec 2015 19:00:05 GMT Received: from irp-lnx1.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by irp-lnx1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tB6J04ZO001105; Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:00:04 -0800 Received: (from fred@localhost) by irp-lnx1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tB6J04hP001104; Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:00:04 -0800 Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:00:04 -0800 From: fred@cisco.com Message-Id: <201512061900.tB6J04hP001104@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> To: v6ops@ietf.org Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2015 19:00:07 -0000 The working group last call for this draft announced last week continues for another week. Please feel free to comment on it. From nobody Sun Dec 6 11:00:11 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D113E1B2A9B for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:00:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -113.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-113.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, IXHASH_X1=1.5, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kqg7DM-5jrTF for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:00:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-8.cisco.com (alln-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.142.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56FBA1B2A9C for ; Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:00:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=129; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1449428406; x=1450638006; h=date:from:message-id:to:subject:cc; bh=4kIRMaErY1jozgSq+oF7sLMWlB9Xgi2sO31pBVcvju4=; b=Lrf3BKEHXn0kyVXeBw/4JLJAeBvIvJR585nDwvCcH8H1woOJLhQhwP4X cxSvrqVUBPXOMh983w0HrNwPNnkQQ85u2v5WpGAQDHHQ8qzEgAoZE/oAN S5p0dZCxgsJwZMj8OEiadYrD7GAiri5ClINwRbyuE0XbgcM5c6khHxjHX I=; X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,391,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="215345101" Received: from alln-core-9.cisco.com ([173.36.13.129]) by alln-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 06 Dec 2015 19:00:05 +0000 Received: from irp-lnx1.cisco.com (irp-lnx1.cisco.com [171.70.41.115]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tB6J05UC019396 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 6 Dec 2015 19:00:05 GMT Received: from irp-lnx1.cisco.com (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by irp-lnx1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tB6J04LM001106; Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:00:04 -0800 Received: (from fred@localhost) by irp-lnx1.cisco.com (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id tB6J04cM001103; Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:00:04 -0800 Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2015 11:00:04 -0800 From: fred@cisco.com Message-Id: <201512061900.tB6J04cM001103@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> To: v6ops@ietf.org Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 06 Dec 2015 19:00:08 -0000 The working group last call for this draft announced last week continues for another week. Please feel free to comment on it. From nobody Tue Dec 8 11:22:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 906711A1BC2 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2015 11:22:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -114.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-114.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2SNq9UtnrE3P for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2015 11:22:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A28011A1BB0 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2015 11:22:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=1737; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1449602525; x=1450812125; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=ibxfSdTGPlYWBm8rjNshNVKJg3MgPLbr2e9+VcQsO6M=; b=PcLNY8HMGCeAfnRiGawYaHSqDrLrbpE57L2TykFOPofSMeMHSmT4tOLR nF5N6vJhBblEQWGN6k/JovIKpXhOIN/zvA+BQgQodguN3ZI0ckXzFo+/9 HXF8yqBhX+pezkTe5SNH+LXbc04RJf3Vwi7NLuhtYweq6VNZSLsc8VtIy M=; X-Files: signature.asc : 833 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0B3AwA7LWdW/4UNJK1egzqBQQa7H4IaD?= =?us-ascii?q?lAKgRSGDgKBPzgUAQEBAQEBAX8LhDQBAQEDAXkFCwIBCBguMiUCBA4FDogZCMA?= =?us-ascii?q?DAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBDwmIY4JuiCaBFQEElmEBgmCBYoh5nGwBH?= =?us-ascii?q?wFDhARyhGiBBwEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,400,1444694400"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="51736215" Received: from alln-core-11.cisco.com ([173.36.13.133]) by rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 08 Dec 2015 19:22:04 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (xch-rtp-015.cisco.com [64.101.220.155]) by alln-core-11.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tB8JM37j007169 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 8 Dec 2015 19:22:04 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com (64.101.220.153) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:22:02 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) by XCH-RTP-013.cisco.com ([64.101.220.153]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 8 Dec 2015 14:22:02 -0500 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: "holger.metschulat@telekom.de" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC Thread-Index: AQHRMe23UHpw6yZhkEuQ5008tyxFxQ== Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2015 19:22:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <201511291900.tATJ04fK009754@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> <88CAA5385EB5404392BF93106C8C53F8AED5357036@HE111507.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> In-Reply-To: <88CAA5385EB5404392BF93106C8C53F8AED5357036@HE111507.emea1.cds.t-internal.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.64.120] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_748854F0-3837-40A4-99C4-A513E8273857"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 08 Dec 2015 19:22:07 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_748854F0-3837-40A4-99C4-A513E8273857 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > On Dec 1, 2015, at 5:11 AM, holger.metschulat@telekom.de wrote: >=20 > Hello, >=20 > some comments: >=20 > - draft-anderson-v6ops-siit-eam is now on version 03, and in the RFC = Editor queue - should RFC6145bis waint until the EAM RFC is published to = get the references right? The RFC Editor generally changes the ID reference to an RFC reference = for us. I don't see the need for this. --Apple-Mail=_748854F0-3837-40A4-99C4-A513E8273857 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIVAwUBVmct2EayAOS/EQ8MAQJYXhAA0FqhuefjshuoMu0BRCr/e4i22WvUm8Tx yulIuEaXCyTL6Lnv4Yhi8qQEqH/NtBxMPFERzMkIltxhEWdiyMm2q9nLsjf7FFJx EMisnz2frVorLtgsDyq1woRNF7Z9g9/iYJ3GVtCLmGiLF5t/WKq8hc+Xn8UKmIBn c8+R9UZZtsY5PtFgU1K97zLAUxWz4ysOkoBSzFwNfepmsC8aNLlmQU/Cv6iHECxG reb3dnSOYL1wKhF+lDi4yEJMzsPzwqsL+TG8WAl2ih0dlp56jjjNlSHAwe3CWr28 KumRu1srDlbmF2MJ7pmbhMq8dnmCXS9RQM0MBUvlstWpyCkGqzNsOYs1kCYQjMnp HZOOB3gXuoi3uLU1FeQrdzHnZQdwx9sfnXWHqsMRAs5wLojm09u+6NV4tQvEEz1/ AZqbZFkLtpJ1xG3glsQPoTLMF9qH+lfGeQrjyXHyoWxTsiTPgOOgCCgOaUSj0Dt6 CDv+hcYKybftWO3AXhVaHapmeS2MjL/FYJkKPY0UdLEBxKzUmCxhAu+1MvU7tbcc g1vqdcMtrImaUfJOiRkN+/v0+kPJt7tk41FrDMv0wtOiyXNrjbuTKxb7GmhO0j6N Vf1hn1ofn0iiqPvRs0EtPXhxq7T1+zmh0COWqjOe2QxUYLuhdMOptWXC974X0dye BTti/HsFdlo= =l00b -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_748854F0-3837-40A4-99C4-A513E8273857-- From nobody Tue Dec 8 23:30:41 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 793851AD0CD for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2015 23:30:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b02UdgwNEoD9 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2015 23:30:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from lhrrgout.huawei.com (lhrrgout.huawei.com [194.213.3.17]) (using TLSv1 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E5C81AD071 for ; Tue, 8 Dec 2015 23:30:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from 172.18.7.190 (EHLO lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com) ([172.18.7.190]) by lhrrg01-dlp.huawei.com (MOS 4.3.7-GA FastPath queued) with ESMTP id CFE81900; Wed, 09 Dec 2015 07:30:35 +0000 (GMT) Received: from LHREML705-CAH.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.168) by lhreml401-hub.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.240) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 07:30:34 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA414-HUB.china.huawei.com (10.82.72.73) by lhreml705-cah.china.huawei.com (10.201.5.168) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 14.3.235.1; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 07:30:34 +0000 Received: from SZXEMA509-MBS.china.huawei.com ([169.254.2.245]) by SZXEMA414-HUB.china.huawei.com ([10.82.72.73]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 9 Dec 2015 15:30:29 +0800 From: "Liushucheng (Will)" To: "fred@cisco.com" , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC Thread-Index: AQHRKtgyYR+mRQpJ+E2r7N7cqeqQnJ7CUBxw Date: Wed, 9 Dec 2015 07:30:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <201511291900.tATJ04fK009754@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <201511291900.tATJ04fK009754@irp-lnx1.cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US, zh-CN Content-Language: zh-CN X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.66.78.84] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Reflected X-Mirapoint-Virus-RAPID-Raw: score=unknown(0), refid=str=0001.0A020203.5667D89C.0015, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0, ip=169.254.2.245, so=2013-06-18 04:22:30, dmn=2013-03-21 17:37:32 X-Mirapoint-Loop-Id: 8d0dc1d78e2a552c80e3716b1308b14f Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 09 Dec 2015 07:30:39 -0000 Hi folks, I support the publication of this document as an RFC. However, I agree with= the posted comments that this document should be clearer regarding the cha= nges from RFC6145. I suggest a new section or appendix be added that makes = such changes explicit. Since I'm involved in one of the I-Ds that led to the updates in this docum= ent, I would like to suggest part of the contents of such new section/appen= dix like: B. Changes since RFC6145 o Reliance on IPv6 atomic fragments has been removed, as a result of the analysis in [draft-ietf-6man-deprecate-atomfrag-generation]. We note that support of IPv6 atomic fragments is currently in the process of being removed from the revised core IPv6 specification [draft-ietf-6man-rfc2460bis]. Similar text should be added regarding the other documents leading to this = update. Regards, Will (Shucheng LIU) > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of fred@cisco.com > Sent: Monday, November 30, 2015 3:00 AM > To: v6ops@ietf.org > Subject: [v6ops] draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis WGLC >=20 > This is to initiate a two week working group last call of > http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bao-v6ops-rfc6145bis. > Please read it now. If you find nits (spelling errors, minor suggested wo= rding > changes, etc), comment to the authors; if you find greater issues, such a= s > disagreeing with a statement or finding additional issues that need to be > addressed, please post your comments to the list. >=20 > We are looking specifically for comments on the importance of the documen= t > as well as its content. If you have read the document and believe it to b= e of > operational utility, that is also an important comment to make. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Thu Dec 10 07:18:49 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C4F31B32CB; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 07:18:47 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.11.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 07:18:47 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 15:18:47 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : Host address availability recommendations Authors : Lorenzo Colitti Vint Cerf Stuart Cheshire David Schinazi Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2015-12-10 Abstract: This document recommends that networks provide general-purpose end hosts with multiple global IPv6 addresses when they attach, and describes the benefits of and the options for doing so. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Thu Dec 10 08:36:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 032EF1A1B20; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:36:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6qh1tiMI6uO2; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 418C51A03A9; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBAGafUf059636; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:36:41 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-406.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-blv-406.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.162]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBAGaaGM059188 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:36:37 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-BLV-406.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.6.72]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:36:35 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRM14kKZlCFjAH9ESehHqsgR6qp57EY3SQ Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:36:35 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:36:44 -0000 Hi, this is a good start at addressing my point on DAD avoidance, but it is= silent on strong vs weak end system models. The document now says that addresses from a delegated prefix can be assigned to an internal interface such as a loopb= ack which would be an example of a weak end system as I had stated earlier. But, addr= esses could also be assigned to the interface over which the prefix is received a= s long as the prefix itself is not added to the prefix list for that interface, which= would be a strong end system example. This may be important for any hosted application= s that care one way or the other about strong vs. weak end system. Please also see Sections 3 and 4 of my draft that was announced here on 11/06/2015: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/bJibVSFoCLd_SFbYfnSf9hRlXIA I wrote this draft as a backup in case the subject would not be fully cover= ed in your document, but it appears that you are now willing to provide covera= ge. Please consider including a discussion of strong vs. weak end system models= , as well as the option of assigning addresses taken from a delegated prefix to the interface over which the prefix delegation was received. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of internet-drafts@= ietf.org > Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 7:19 AM > To: i-d-announce@ietf.org > Cc: v6ops@ietf.org > Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.t= xt >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts direct= ories. > This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IE= TF. >=20 > Title : Host address availability recommendations > Authors : Lorenzo Colitti > Vint Cerf > Stuart Cheshire > David Schinazi > Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt > Pages : 13 > Date : 2015-12-10 >=20 > Abstract: > This document recommends that networks provide general-purpose end > hosts with multiple global IPv6 addresses when they attach, and > describes the benefits of and the options for doing so. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability/ >=20 > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availabili= ty-03 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submiss= ion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Thu Dec 10 08:46:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E123A1A8A68 for ; 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d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=UglQxsMJrF4OxS9tPHTIbLG9FVRutFQ3TfDDEWkwaao=; b=g41ezchODT67V+tDN4vhEl8pBkhkO/5JYxF7MUWuFtX+Wi4yh9RnlmZpFL3MYatxqX MrZCiItpaMl8xsclDR+vx3eiB0bPkx3PoBcYQ7XdmBbtaKPXGHjbhPl2dNAzOhay9o5t E3HS3SF2+vPM/bnCEGzYwFtuv8xfHYO+ue0IpecJ60wlCPyiOqMC9xOa0i7mVMtzFefG ArkhyfYGvvMzGcpVUB6qa0vXzEyPc9U6kbkfbBCUE89blxBwmLyUJ56oCzDZiHfJ32rf BjZP1kHJjeuIvBC8wv757CNaIrun5fo1OeB98reNKUiLdUrBOKGbHa6se4Y4WxjDLaxM uewg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=UglQxsMJrF4OxS9tPHTIbLG9FVRutFQ3TfDDEWkwaao=; b=enP1EFqvMiZeuxo2TSFPmo4ew3aB2Yd8CgxkvZwNZ8mGsd0mCqVsZWll/6cYoB2rXR MY7vKeu8EvhudjHPMBGlq41FuMqJJGZqiqpYtNR6qqhFV1s+1zN/lteBk8Omuw1JBFNq rs9BlWrl4V71mt2Iv2I8FG722UBJTn6+wR3OgIWTV7e6aUw042sYGxRrwaikceyhvXbk fMePzGj5E/87gvgKZ9VsDtRAxnamQUEiXFRtOb1fdtlYxb6g6XI0uRWA5TdMwyF3s+vq xyRHWfQEX3QaFdyqR+TYJ8TuBv8LHGYFB7eUsaWy4xuc9E2lp5QpWfMHtB6S0vu10EpX OoVA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnhtx6uVpL6ijwsa8ATYSAVwcABBubvsryB416AfQPPYbcp3CW8CP8Ib6ASflZpU3ekNlX6h2UGqBfroh3PbPXiPSDOf2JLXe5fQg5xMcE5hsJueJY= X-Received: by 10.129.41.200 with SMTP id p191mr5284854ywp.160.1449766013787; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:46:53 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 08:46:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 01:46:34 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Templin, Fred L" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114082f642c66205268df47b Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 16:46:56 -0000 --001a114082f642c66205268df47b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote: > But, addresses > could also be assigned to the interface over which the prefix is received > as long as the prefix itself is not added to the prefix list for that > interface No, that's a violation of section 1 of RFC 4862, which says: To ensure that all configured addresses are likely to be unique on a given link, nodes run a "duplicate address detection" algorithm on addresses before assigning them to an interface. The Duplicate Address Detection algorithm is performed on all addresses, independently of whether they are obtained via stateless autoconfiguration or DHCPv6. The text in the address availability draft is careful not to violate the text above; it does so by saying that DAD can be avoided if the address is not assigned to the physical interface. > I wrote this draft as a backup in case the subject would not be fully > covered > in your document, but it appears that you are now willing to provide > coverage. > I think it's fine to mention in passing (as we now do), but I think a more detailed description is out of scope. This document is about recommendations on assigning multiple addresses to to hosts, not how the hosts configure the addresses that they get. --001a114082f642c66205268df47b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On F= ri, Dec 11, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boei= ng.com> wrote:
But, addresses
could also be assigned to the interface over which the prefix is received a= s long as=C2=A0the prefix itself is not added to the prefix list for that i= nterface

No, that's a violation of sect= ion 1 of RFC 4862, which says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0T= o ensure that all configured addresses are likely to be unique on a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0given link, nodes run a "duplicate address detection&q= uot; algorithm on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0addresses before assigning them to= an interface.=C2=A0 The Duplicate
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Address Detection= algorithm is performed on all addresses,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0independen= tly of whether they are obtained via stateless
=C2=A0 =C2=A0autoc= onfiguration or DHCPv6.=C2=A0

The text in th= e address availability draft is careful not to violate the text above; it d= oes so by saying that DAD can be avoided if the address is not assigned to = the physical interface.
=C2=A0
I wrote this= draft as a backup in case the subject would not be fully covered
in your document, but it appears that you are now willing to provide covera= ge.

I think it's fine to mention in= passing (as we now do), but I think a more detailed description is out of = scope. This document is about recommendations on assigning multiple address= es to to hosts, not how the hosts configure the addresses that they get.
--001a114082f642c66205268df47b-- From nobody Thu Dec 10 09:04:38 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 569711A8AE5; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:04:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OpGdihnfS4qD; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from stl-mbsout-02.boeing.com (stl-mbsout-02.boeing.com [130.76.96.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 53BD91A8AC6; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:04:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBAH4XwB020490; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:04:33 -0600 Received: from XCH-PHX-513.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-513.sw.nos.boeing.com [10.57.37.30]) by stl-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBAH4Ouv020134 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:04:24 -0600 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-513.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.13.120]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:04:24 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRM14kKZlCFjAH9ESehHqsgR6qp57EY3SQgACQlAD//3tX8A== Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:04:23 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786CXCHBLV504nwnosb_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:04:37 -0000 --_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786CXCHBLV504nwnosb_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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([173.37.102.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 11:47:27 -0600 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability Thread-Index: AQHRM3LVLVlMAtHf902TFvF+TPjPfw== Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:47:27 +0000 Message-ID: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151105 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.64.120] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1E9125EBD6F14DF29954A01C1C1E07BCciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:47:30 -0000 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09:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com [130.76.32.232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 108EB1A913E for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBAHxV1L029466; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:59:31 -0800 Received: from XCH-PHX-312.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-312.sw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.173]) by blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBAHxVBF029450 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:59:31 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-312.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.12.175]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 09:59:27 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Fred Baker (fred)" , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability Thread-Index: AQHRM3LVLVlMAtHf902TFvF+TPjPf57EgAKw Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:59:27 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799CXCHBLV504nwnosb_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:59:34 -0000 --_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799CXCHBLV504nwnosb_ 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([173.37.102.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:00:25 -0600 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: "Templin, Fred L" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability Thread-Index: AQHRM3LVLVlMAtHf902TFvF+TPjPf57EgAKwgAACYIA= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 20:00:25 +0000 Message-ID: <62B5FB1E-C23A-4B95-A75E-E06C54FC92DA@cisco.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151105 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.64.120] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_62B5FB1EC23A4B95A75EE06C54FC92DAciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] 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v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBD441B2AD2 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:48:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aiIfkNc9Nu6U for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CB571B2ACD for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBAKmBgo063140; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:48:11 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-402.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-blv-402.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.31]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBAKmAZE063017 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:48:10 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-BLV-402.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.2.79]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 12:48:09 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Fred Baker (fred)" Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability Thread-Index: AQHRM3LVLVlMAtHf902TFvF+TPjPf57EgAKwgAACYICAACf6kA== Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 20:48:09 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87CAC@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <62B5FB1E-C23A-4B95-A75E-E06C54FC92DA@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: <62B5FB1E-C23A-4B95-A75E-E06C54FC92DA@cisco.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87CACXCHBLV504nwnosb_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 20:48:15 -0000 --_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87CACXCHBLV504nwnosb_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgRnJlZCwNCg0KSGVyZSBpcyBhIHN1Z2dlc3Rpb246DQoNCi0tLQ0KT0xEOg0KQWxzbywgYSBE SENQdjYgUEQgbW9kZWwgd2l0aCBhIGRlZGljYXRlZCAvNjQgcGVyIGhvc3QgbWFrZXMgaXQNCnBv 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X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LzfvDn1vC9Yh for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x22a.google.com (mail-vk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A0901B2BEB for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:27:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by vkay187 with SMTP id y187so102291281vka.3 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:27:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=PxNrzrjgpkdPXOgJTbkLKEfp8Qyy2f+cPjlXkmzEVS0=; b=vnOTKCdFeyIRRfYEENc+4MB/fKJZ065uBJ2AXVWXJhg5Yr7kCisJzIBp57tfPq0Jt9 2UwxOH1+SPNZOD0HbMJUUALSXI7uw1Y5jmyqO+QFVl2ogv46/OpyU6Gns/kGknEo9Wxw bBGFHdoNhdU/y52kybT0y2i6LpuTMdq8o5fYql1zUWWPkWPAd/Lhr7bk9Fg3HT9+YdrD aNYacoBMlnCak/yYoJX1X6iW83HwmF6p5Y6rxNN8n4X6xjdIoNvaTuExIUPqewgsg4m0 oAhlSWY5gz0/v7aFEKkUDHcbj7ZFi/OEWOG2KVv83GPl4Tm931LGhIhFiuTz+ZVxE7IN RvlQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.188.200 with SMTP id m191mr12373007vkf.102.1449782875510; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:27:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.45.198 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:27:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.45.198 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 13:27:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87CAC@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <62B5FB1E-C23A-4B95-A75E-E06C54FC92DA@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87CAC@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:27:55 +1100 Message-ID: From: Mark Smith To: "Templin, Fred L" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1143aa3c4bdbca052691e1b7 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:27:59 -0000 --001a1143aa3c4bdbca052691e1b7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sorry to be terse, I'm on a train about to get off. I think there needs to be some discussion around MLD in the context of delegating a prefix via PD. I think the host needs to act as a host in that regard, so MLD joins will need to be sent for Solicited-Node MC groups for "loopback" local addresses even if dad isn't needed. On 11 Dec 2015 7:48 AM, "Templin, Fred L" wrote= : > Hi Fred, > > > > Here is a suggestion: > > > > --- > > OLD: > > Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > > possible for the host not to assign global IPv6 addresses directly to > > its physical network interface, but instead to assign them to an > > internal interface such as a loopback interface. This obviates the > > need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection > > for anything other than the link-local address on its physical > > network interface, reducing network traffic. > > > > NEW: > > Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > > possible for the host to assign global IPv6 addresses without the need > > to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection > > for anything other than the link-local address on its physical network > > interface, reducing network traffic. The host can assign the addresses > > either to an internal interface such as a loopback interface per the > > weak end system model, or to the physical interface per the strong > > end system model as long as it does not add the /64 to the physical > > interface=E2=80=99s Prefix List. > > --- > > > > In terms of why this is important, I would defer to RFC1122 and to what > > is expected of currently widely-deployed implementations. AFACIT, > > strong end system is more =E2=80=9Chost-like=E2=80=9D than weak end syste= m. How > > important that is is beyond the scope of my understanding, but an > > alternative that can and should be mentioned in this document. > > > > Thanks =E2=80=93 Fred > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > > > *From:* Fred Baker (fred) [mailto:fred@cisco.com] > *Sent:* Thursday, December 10, 2015 12:00 PM > *To:* Templin, Fred L > *Cc:* v6ops@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability > > > > Hmm. What specifically would you like it to say? > > > > What I am thinking about is a similar discussion in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-multi-homed-host-02#section-1= .1. > The context there was that said draft wants a host to send its packets to= a > predictable first hop router unless it has direct connectivity to the > destination, and that first hop router is a/the one that emitted a releva= nt > RA. That's not quite RFC 1122's "strong host" model, but it is definitely > not the "weak host" model. The host model is relevant because which route= r > it talks with is important. > > > > In draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability, why is the host model > important? I understand it to be saying that where a host might be given > one address, it should be possible to give the host multiple addresses, a= nd > throws some numbers around. In that context, is the strong or weak host > model, or the model in draft-ietf-6man-multi-homed-host important? > > > > *From: *"Templin, Fred L" > *Date: *Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 9:59 AM > *To: *Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org" > *Subject: *RE: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability > > > > Hi Fred, > > > > I have made two points: 1) that DAD implications should be discussed, and > > 2) that strong vs weak end system alternatives should be discussed. The > > new draft addresses point 1) to a certain extent (again, this was my poin= t) > > but does not fully address point 2) as the past messages on the list have > > shown. So, IMHO the draft is not yet ready to be advanced. > > > > Thanks =E2=80=93 Fred > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > > > *From:* v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org ] *O= n > Behalf Of *Fred Baker (fred) > *Sent:* Thursday, December 10, 2015 9:47 AM > *To:* v6ops@ietf.org > *Subject:* [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability > > > > We have an updated version of draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability. I'= d > like to believe that it addresses the discussion at IETF 94 and subsequen= t > mail discussion. Does it? > > > > We had a WGLC September 24-October 7, an update, the latest discussion, > and this update. I believe that we are done. Barring objections, we'll se= nd > it in. > > > > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availabi= lity-03.txt > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > --001a1143aa3c4bdbca052691e1b7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Sorry to be terse, I'm on a train about to get off.

I think there needs to be some discussion around MLD in the = context of delegating a prefix via PD. I think the host needs to act as a h= ost in that regard, so MLD joins will need to be sent for Solicited-Node MC= groups for "loopback" local addresses even if dad isn't need= ed.

On 11 Dec 2015 7:48 AM, "Templin, Fred L&qu= ot; <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.= com> wrote:

Hi Fred,

=C2=A0

Here is a suggestion:

=C2=A0

---

OLD:

Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedica= ted /64 per host makes it=C2=A0

possible for the host not to assign g= lobal IPv6 addresses directly to=C2=A0

its physical network interface, but i= nstead to assign them to an=C2=A0

internal interface such as a loopback= interface.=C2=A0 This obviates the=C2=A0

need to perform Neighbour Discovery a= nd Duplicate Address Detection=C2=A0

for anything other than the link-loca= l address on its physical=C2=A0

network interface, reducing network t= raffic.

=C2=A0

NEW:

Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedica= ted /64 per host makes it=C2=A0

possible for the host to assign globa= l IPv6 addresses without the need

to perform Neighbour Discovery and Du= plicate Address Detection=C2=A0

for anything other than the link-loca= l address on its physical network

interface, reducing network traffic. = The host can assign the addresses

either to an internal interface such = as a loopback interface per the

weak end system model, or to the phys= ical interface per the strong

end system model as long as it does n= ot add the /64 to the physical

interface=E2=80=99s Prefix List.

---

=C2=A0

In terms of why this is important, I = would defer to RFC1122 and to what

is expected of currently widely-deplo= yed implementations. AFACIT,

strong end system is more =E2=80=9Cho= st-like=E2=80=9D than weak end system. How

important that is is beyond the scope= of my understanding, but an

alternative that can and should be me= ntioned in this document.

=C2=A0

Thanks =E2=80=93 Fred

fred.l.templin@boeing.com

=C2=A0

From: Fred Baker (fred) [mailto:fred@cisco.com]
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 12:00 PM
To: Templin, Fred L
Cc: v6ops@ietf.o= rg
Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability

=C2=A0

Hmm. What specifically would you like i= t to say?

=C2=A0

What I am thinking about is a similar d= iscussion in=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/htm= l/draft-ietf-6man-multi-homed-host-02#section-1.1. The context there was that said draft wants a host to send its packets to = a predictable first hop router unless it has direct connectivity to the des= tination, and that first hop router is a/the one that emitted a relevant RA= . That's not quite RFC 1122's "strong host" model, but it is definitely not the "weak host" model= . The host model is relevant because which router it talks with is importan= t.

=C2=A0

In=C2=A0draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-avai= lability, why is the host model important? I understand it to be saying tha= t where a host might be given one address, it should be possible to give the host multiple addresses, and throws some numbers a= round. In that context, is the strong or weak host model, or the model in d= raft-ietf-6man-multi-homed-host important?

=C2=A0

From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
Date: Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 9:59 AM
To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: RE: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability

=C2=A0

Hi Fred,

=C2=A0

I have made two points: 1) that DAD i= mplications should be discussed, and<= /u>

2) that strong vs weak end system alt= ernatives should be discussed. The

new draft addresses point 1) to a cer= tain extent (again, this was my point)

but does not fully address point 2) a= s the past messages on the list have<= /u>

shown.=C2=A0 So, IMHO the draft is no= t yet ready to be advanced.

=C2=A0

Thanks =E2=80=93 Fred

fred.l.templin@boeing.com

=C2=A0

From: v6ops = [mailto:v6ops-b= ounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker (fred)
Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 9:47 AM
To: v6ops@ietf.o= rg
Subject: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability

=C2=A0

We have an updated version of draft-iet= f-v6ops-host-addr-availability. I'd like to believe that it addresses t= he discussion at IETF 94 and subsequent mail discussion. Does it?

=C2=A0

We had a WGLC September 24-October 7, a= n update, the latest discussion, and this update. I believe that we are don= e. Barring objections, we'll send it in.

=C2=A0


_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

--001a1143aa3c4bdbca052691e1b7-- From nobody Thu Dec 10 14:01:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 860D51B2C44 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:01:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ad98lpu7QUR7 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:01:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com [130.76.32.232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E9B41B2C3E for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:01:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBAM1X4D004507; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:01:33 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-304.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-blv-304.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.216]) by blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBAM1OZ9004446 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:01:24 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-BLV-304.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.162]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 14:01:20 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Mark Smith Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability Thread-Index: AQHRM3LVLVlMAtHf902TFvF+TPjPf57EgAKwgAACYICAACf6kIAAmB6A//99wqA= Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 22:01:20 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87D8B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <62B5FB1E-C23A-4B95-A75E-E06C54FC92DA@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87CAC@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87D8BXCHBLV504nwnosb_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 10 Dec 2015 22:01:34 -0000 --_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87D8BXCHBLV504nwnosb_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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nobody Thu Dec 10 18:41:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C15B31A1A45 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:41:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YeSrVmMlobUy for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:41:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x22c.google.com (mail-vk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate 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10.103.45.198 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 18:41:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87D8B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <62B5FB1E-C23A-4B95-A75E-E06C54FC92DA@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87CAC@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87D8B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:41:00 +1100 Message-ID: From: Mark Smith To: "Templin, Fred L" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113ee62cfa3179052696402d Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:41:05 -0000 --001a113ee62cfa3179052696402d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Fred, On 11 Dec 2015 9:01 AM, "Templin, Fred L" wrote= : > > Hi Mark, > > > > I think MLD only applies to the case of assigning addresses to the physical interface, > > and not the case of assigning addresses to a loopback interface =E2=80=93= in the loopback > > case, the addresses are clearly not on-link on the physical interface and so should > > require neither DAD nor MLD over the physical interface. > > Yes, thinking though it more, you're right about MLD for Solicited Node groups for the internal addresses not being necessary in this scenario. > > In the case of assigning the addresses to the physical interface, MLD for each > > solicited node multicast address can be avoided for the same reason that DAD > > can be avoided =E2=80=93 the addresses are not really =E2=80=9Con-link=E2= =80=9D on the physical interface > > even though they are assigned to the physical interface. The node therefore > > looks like a router to the outside world but acts as a host internally. But yes, it > > probably makes sense to mention MLD in some capacity. > I agree. Under normal circumstances, I think the MLD messages for the applications that are using addresses from within the delegated /64 would be sent over the same link, which would be the internal link, and therefore pointless. So I think in this scenario, they instead need to be sent over the link the prefix was received over via DHCPv6-PD. Regards, Mark. > > > Thanks =E2=80=93 Fred > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > > > From: Mark Smith [mailto:markzzzsmith@gmail.com] > Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 1:28 PM > To: Templin, Fred L > Cc: Fred Baker (fred); v6ops list > Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability > > > > Sorry to be terse, I'm on a train about to get off. > > I think there needs to be some discussion around MLD in the context of delegating a prefix via PD. I think the host needs to act as a host in that regard, so MLD joins will need to be sent for Solicited-Node MC groups for "loopback" local addresses even if dad isn't needed. > > On 11 Dec 2015 7:48 AM, "Templin, Fred L" wrote: >> >> Hi Fred, >> >> >> >> Here is a suggestion: >> >> >> >> --- >> >> OLD: >> >> Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it >> >> possible for the host not to assign global IPv6 addresses directly to >> >> its physical network interface, but instead to assign them to an >> >> internal interface such as a loopback interface. This obviates the >> >> need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection >> >> for anything other than the link-local address on its physical >> >> network interface, reducing network traffic. >> >> >> >> NEW: >> >> Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it >> >> possible for the host to assign global IPv6 addresses without the need >> >> to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection >> >> for anything other than the link-local address on its physical network >> >> interface, reducing network traffic. The host can assign the addresses >> >> either to an internal interface such as a loopback interface per the >> >> weak end system model, or to the physical interface per the strong >> >> end system model as long as it does not add the /64 to the physical >> >> interface=E2=80=99s Prefix List. >> >> --- >> >> >> >> In terms of why this is important, I would defer to RFC1122 and to what >> >> is expected of currently widely-deployed implementations. AFACIT, >> >> strong end system is more =E2=80=9Chost-like=E2=80=9D than weak end syst= em. How >> >> important that is is beyond the scope of my understanding, but an >> >> alternative that can and should be mentioned in this document. >> >> >> >> Thanks =E2=80=93 Fred >> >> fred.l.templin@boeing.com >> >> >> >> From: Fred Baker (fred) [mailto:fred@cisco.com] >> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 12:00 PM >> To: Templin, Fred L >> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability >> >> >> >> Hmm. What specifically would you like it to say? >> >> >> >> What I am thinking about is a similar discussion in https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-multi-homed-host-02#section-1.1= . The context there was that said draft wants a host to send its packets to a predictable first hop router unless it has direct connectivity to the destination, and that first hop router is a/the one that emitted a relevant RA. That's not quite RFC 1122's "strong host" model, but it is definitely not the "weak host" model. The host model is relevant because which router it talks with is important. >> >> >> >> In draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability, why is the host model important? I understand it to be saying that where a host might be given one address, it should be possible to give the host multiple addresses, and throws some numbers around. In that context, is the strong or weak host model, or the model in draft-ietf-6man-multi-homed-host important? >> >> >> >> From: "Templin, Fred L" >> Date: Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 9:59 AM >> To: Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org" >> Subject: RE: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability >> >> >> >> Hi Fred, >> >> >> >> I have made two points: 1) that DAD implications should be discussed, an= d >> >> 2) that strong vs weak end system alternatives should be discussed. The >> >> new draft addresses point 1) to a certain extent (again, this was my point) >> >> but does not fully address point 2) as the past messages on the list hav= e >> >> shown. So, IMHO the draft is not yet ready to be advanced. >> >> >> >> Thanks =E2=80=93 Fred >> >> fred.l.templin@boeing.com >> >> >> >> From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker (fred) >> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 9:47 AM >> To: v6ops@ietf.org >> Subject: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability >> >> >> >> We have an updated version of draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability. I'd like to believe that it addresses the discussion at IETF 94 and subsequent mail discussion. Does it? >> >> >> >> We had a WGLC September 24-October 7, an update, the latest discussion, and this update. I believe that we are done. Barring objections, we'll send it in. >> >> >> >> https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availabili= ty-03.txt >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --001a113ee62cfa3179052696402d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Fred,

On 11 Dec 2015 9:01 AM, "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> = wrote:
>
> Hi Mark,
>
> =C2=A0
>
> I think MLD only applies to the case of assigning addresses to the phy= sical interface,
>
> and not the case of assigning addresses to a loopback interface =E2=80= =93 in the loopback
>
> case, the addresses are clearly not on-link on the physical interface = and so should
>
> require neither DAD nor MLD over the physical interface.
>
> =C2=A0

Yes, thinking though it more, you're right about MLD for= Solicited Node groups for the internal addresses not being necessary in th= is scenario.

>
> In the case of assigning the addresses to the physical interface, MLD = for each
>
> solicited node multicast address can be avoided for the same reason th= at DAD
>
> can be avoided =E2=80=93 the addresses are not really =E2=80=9Con-link= =E2=80=9D on the physical interface
>
> even though they are assigned to the physical interface. The node ther= efore
>
> looks like a router to the outside world but acts as a host internally= . But yes, it
>
> probably makes sense to mention MLD in some capacity.
>

I agree.

Under normal circumstances, I think the MLD messages for the= applications that are using addresses from within the delegated /64 would = be sent over the same link, which would be the internal link, and therefore= pointless.

So I think in this scenario, they instead need to be sent ov= er the link the prefix was received over via DHCPv6-PD.

Regards,
Mark.

> =C2=A0
>
> Thanks =E2=80=93 Fred
>
> fred.l.templin@boeing.com=
>
> =C2=A0
>
> From: Mark Smith [mailto:mar= kzzzsmith@gmail.com]
> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 1:28 PM
> To: Templin, Fred L
> Cc: Fred Baker (fred); v6ops list
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability
>
> =C2=A0
>
> Sorry to be terse, I'm on a train about to get off.
>
> I think there needs to be some discussion around MLD in the context of= delegating a prefix via PD. I think the host needs to act as a host in tha= t regard, so MLD joins will need to be sent for Solicited-Node MC groups fo= r "loopback" local addresses even if dad isn't needed.
>
> On 11 Dec 2015 7:48 AM, "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Fred,
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Here is a suggestion:
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> ---
>>
>> OLD:
>>
>> Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it=C2= =A0
>>
>> possible for the host not to assign global IPv6 addresses directly= to=C2=A0
>>
>> its physical network interface, but instead to assign them to an= =C2=A0
>>
>> internal interface such as a loopback interface.=C2=A0 This obviat= es the=C2=A0
>>
>> need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detectio= n=C2=A0
>>
>> for anything other than the link-local address on its physical=C2= =A0
>>
>> network interface, reducing network traffic.
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> NEW:
>>
>> Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it=C2= =A0
>>
>> possible for the host to assign global IPv6 addresses without the = need
>>
>> to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection=C2= =A0
>>
>> for anything other than the link-local address on its physical net= work
>>
>> interface, reducing network traffic. The host can assign the addre= sses
>>
>> either to an internal interface such as a loopback interface per t= he
>>
>> weak end system model, or to the physical interface per the strong=
>>
>> end system model as long as it does not add the /64 to the physica= l
>>
>> interface=E2=80=99s Prefix List.
>>
>> ---
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> In terms of why this is important, I would defer to RFC1122 and to= what
>>
>> is expected of currently widely-deployed implementations. AFACIT,<= br> >>
>> strong end system is more =E2=80=9Chost-like=E2=80=9D than weak en= d system. How
>>
>> important that is is beyond the scope of my understanding, but an<= br> >>
>> alternative that can and should be mentioned in this document.
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Thanks =E2=80=93 Fred
>>
>> fred.l.templin@boeing= .com
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> From: Fred Baker (fred) [mailto:= fred@cisco.com]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 12:00 PM
>> To: Templin, Fred L
>> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
>> Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Hmm. What specifically would you like it to say?
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> What I am thinking about is a similar discussion in=C2=A0https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-multi-homed-host-02#secti= on-1.1. The context there was that said draft wants a host to send its = packets to a predictable first hop router unless it has direct connectivity= to the destination, and that first hop router is a/the one that emitted a = relevant RA. That's not quite RFC 1122's "strong host" mo= del, but it is definitely not the "weak host" model. The host mod= el is relevant because which router it talks with is important.
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> In=C2=A0draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability, why is the host m= odel important? I understand it to be saying that where a host might be giv= en one address, it should be possible to give the host multiple addresses, = and throws some numbers around. In that context, is the strong or weak host= model, or the model in draft-ietf-6man-multi-homed-host important?
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> From: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>
>> Date: Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 9:59 AM
>> To: Fred Baker <fred@cisco.co= m>, "v6ops@ietf.org"= <v6ops@ietf.org>
>> Subject: RE: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Hi Fred,
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> I have made two points: 1) that DAD implications should be discuss= ed, and
>>
>> 2) that strong vs weak end system alternatives should be discussed= . The
>>
>> new draft addresses point 1) to a certain extent (again, this was = my point)
>>
>> but does not fully address point 2) as the past messages on the li= st have
>>
>> shown.=C2=A0 So, IMHO the draft is not yet ready to be advanced. >>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> Thanks =E2=80=93 Fred
>>
>> fred.l.templin@boeing= .com
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> From: v6ops [mailto:v6op= s-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker (fred)
>> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 9:47 AM
>> To: v6ops@ietf.org
>> Subject: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> We have an updated version of draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availabil= ity. I'd like to believe that it addresses the discussion at IETF 94 an= d subsequent mail discussion. Does it?
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> We had a WGLC September 24-October 7, an update, the latest discus= sion, and this update. I believe that we are done. Barring objections, we&#= 39;ll send it in.
>>
>> =C2=A0
>>
>> https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-= ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://ww= w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

--001a113ee62cfa3179052696402d-- From nobody Thu Dec 10 20:36:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EB7D1A6F13 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 20:36:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GxcIM39Znj6f for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 20:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qg0-x231.google.com (mail-qg0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 571531A6F05 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 20:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by qgeb1 with SMTP id b1so183007631qge.1 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 20:36:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=WyhemBBrOzOTZSXhsFoFdbPAWB9GpBImi4vlX/0LRa0=; b=kW2YQFFnz/MTczh0Nl1eE92Gai1ivTjKlvG9drfMAgA+Aa0i9Dha7zbD+dV22jUz0v aKEg7z/t4xhsgwZjBTcb/1ena68yb9TGbiyos0sgsWUvuVfzmJQHwQio54wxQS9/+VQ+ 3Z4DsFWvcc43t69p4QxzlpQ+lDEsDmqViWVaVLKZ4zcGbAl66Qf2g7gkZIOnfVtNxmiO 3gXKSBJVADNPr8zs5q5nXEL3A2Z5p8X13lYEjVXapXlm0RR2iXRSIQnxUqnCdAl8tryX /9J3qUClop6Cds8ynupD2XYoIQt6WUnmCDIqYQHNP+XUzaH9RzPqLdHc0x/RACaeswrX NxhA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=WyhemBBrOzOTZSXhsFoFdbPAWB9GpBImi4vlX/0LRa0=; b=gXZf9kbuEpc8eVm5k0/KOEugAqBdYioHi1AI+mdyPb+/SOm2kTOv+IKaGXoEoWamYj /qvOLhPhcs6m1WUg0YVduySh/C9rwoy6nUmYbGXg0NXKeQ5tU+71ha8hXPbFRA5JQ1YN xwn2Drsr1N+1cbAvB3QA+aaCpwaRSQynQjvCRgcNC9cUaxhU7EM1jhTd08a18Apkt/xK FeU8Tl564X/L2ipU8TBXhg6VxiKm2JUHaIJDs9rle8rHjd77n/n1XHMWoRsNWkI6Wg8m VQ9HqRz9gIZDvvn5Wewcm53BTaxAzuOW4JBcfiudLZIEOkiZQdFtOc7XvaTJdfj0KzuA FPpg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlKJ0iITmJjVQiPxJcPs7dOgFaahRXnhponnYfSixYBfD6RGVyD/zroKdZ4z/AJpjVyAgsRYf53i6UnBRDPgODYDqXbaPgS5ACvZcOgILywrWqJTxE= X-Received: by 10.129.157.84 with SMTP id u81mr7535807ywg.123.1449808565417; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 20:36:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 20:35:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87CAC@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <62B5FB1E-C23A-4B95-A75E-E06C54FC92DA@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87CAC@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:35:45 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Templin, Fred L" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0b7ab2892be6052697dc16 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 04:36:07 -0000 --94eb2c0b7ab2892be6052697dc16 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, I think your suggested text: On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 5:48 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote: > Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > > possible for the host to assign global IPv6 addresses without the need > > to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection > > for anything other than the link-local address on its physical network > > interface, reducing network traffic. The host can assign the addresses > > either to an internal interface such as a loopback interface per the > > weak end system model, or to the physical interface per the strong > > end system model as long as it does not add the /64 to the physical > > interface=E2=80=99s Prefix List. > is a clear violation of this text in RFC 4862: To ensure that all configured addresses are likely to be unique on a given link, nodes run a "duplicate address detection" algorithm on addresses before assigning them to an interface. The Duplicate Address Detection algorithm is performed on all addresses IIUC you're saying that if the host assigns addresses to the interface but doesn't add the /64 to the prefix list, then it can skip DAD. Can you point to normative text in RFC 4862 that backs up your position? We can't add text to this document that violates RFC 4862. Cheers, Lorenzo --94eb2c0b7ab2892be6052697dc16 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred= ,

I th= ink your suggested text:

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 5:48 AM, Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:

Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64= per host makes it=C2=A0

possible for the host to assign global IPv6 = addresses without the need

to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate= Address Detection=C2=A0

for anything other than the link-local addre= ss on its physical network

interface, reducing network traffic. The hos= t can assign the addresses

either to an internal interface such as a lo= opback interface per the

weak end system model, or to the physical in= terface per the strong

end system model as long as it does not add = the /64 to the physical

interface=E2=80=99s Prefix List.

<= /div>

is a clear violation of this te= xt in RFC 4862:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0To ensure that a= ll configured addresses are likely to be unique on a
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0given link, nodes run a "duplicate address detection" algorith= m on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0addresses before assigning them to an interface= .=C2=A0 The Duplicate
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Address Detection algorithm is= performed on all addresses

IIUC you= 9;re saying that if the host assigns addresses to the interface but doesn&#= 39;t add the /64 to the prefix list, then it can skip DAD. Can you point to= normative text in RFC 4862 that backs up your position? We can't add t= ext to this document that violates RFC 4862.

Cheers,
Lorenzo
--94eb2c0b7ab2892be6052697dc16-- From nobody Thu Dec 10 21:39:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B62741A87F2 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:39:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E2AAvmf0f8sd for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:39:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qg0-x230.google.com (mail-qg0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c04::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B03B11A87E6 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:39:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by qgeb1 with SMTP id b1so185243684qge.1 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:39:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=/UnTW2PQAM0FSz4r7MYEeYVL0t21W07XHqIQU5/mxF0=; b=o68JakjxAy/PfNX2HvEN/Mehja2vXuTtVd9RGFi2DT7xp5VoxJOKpOozmAFIBgR/P8 Vn/v6Sne4SZvc5gnXEncn1jAaDwMYylOseIsJBsx15P+KgEIjY+uLwk/NzDiXcX3kcY3 KsK9nVoCcgfdyD6hpYdTKUhmF8gfZTjP5exZGfAlfvfJnp+S0tcM6m/WGlCje1ypDKzn QFcxVVuFkpf2+JaNtT5ToldYGWAtWJUU+uoSLBhYD/n9KYUWsPGLN80xtt4k7L9C+1Gp jqRdAPwm9jvC8wOwP78wdwz63S0ulzrkDC7JiSjZ6dndbJ00EPBtIXqEH+llNpcw7Lld q/wg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=/UnTW2PQAM0FSz4r7MYEeYVL0t21W07XHqIQU5/mxF0=; b=IGC9IQSXRIHxJD+Vou9dqUjWC/gVjTvvLWo5Aas4XDSG9x89etrHl1+Ttqc3CiwEGx BTqMzaBVmyshcon1uvDrmx2LAvYZ3uhQHdAc8f4H7Eka0XwggGoXsAg/HvZVTMCy1mwG iOEXPv9XvFwmra+s0LMkc0tuUuyG1eknv2fmN0zPfvdvFcM3DcUEg6cTWcfIxgkD+FX6 I/A3YuUQ4Q/6vcMfMgmKfj2nkKaVKmbKKCgW1JnBBn+hpjek1gSljvDFYcUx4ZJgvTAv SS+HFZhb5uObG/GrueZsoIvqi5cD1ADf4dCcXbg3L8T+jqXubkvqtWHGrtkbYoERW7e4 MsjQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQljl5NxrW6BRNa2nDgNfI/PIk+p2Jy7xFkKmuWQnpiTUyx17hWuQpe9esM7dAeqID6gSJqM3IGh4bqM0cfE1gP902yuEojQ5LE3UW5HG+8jDLwUNwM= X-Received: by 10.129.153.198 with SMTP id q189mr7411278ywg.337.1449812352752; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:39:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 21:38:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:38:53 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Templin, Fred L" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0b7316474e99052698be1a Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 05:39:15 -0000 --94eb2c0b7316474e99052698be1a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 2:04 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote: > RFC4862 says that DAD does not need to be performed on interfaces that have > > DupAddrDetectTransmits set to 0. The document therefore shows flexibility > for > > determining when DAD is needed. > Perhaps, but DupAddrDetectTransmits is an "autoconfiguration-related variable to be configured by system management for each multicast-capable interface". That statement does not allow an implementation to autonomously decide to set it to 0, nor does it allow anyone (implementation or system manager) to set it to 0 for a particular prefix, bot not other prefixes, on an interface. You could argue that it's within the remit of v6ops to publish an operational guidance document that says that implementations could or should do this, though some might argue that that's a call that only 6man can make. If there were the possibility that the same prefix could be delegated to > more than > > one node, then there would be much bigger issues that could not be > resolved by > > DAD anyway. It would constitute a major routing issue and, again, DAD > would not > > be able to resolve it. So, again, there is no need for DAD. > FWIW I do agree with you. There is no technical need for DAD in such a situation. But just because there is no technical need to do DAD doesn't mean that we can state that a host can skip doing DAD, because that violates the letter of RFC4862. In other words, my objection is not technical, but procedural. If we want to make it possible for hosts to avoid DAD in this situation, we can't just bury that statement in this draft. We need a more targeted document and perhaps 6man involvement. --94eb2c0b7316474e99052698be1a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On F= ri, Dec 11, 2015 at 2:04 AM, Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boei= ng.com> wrote:

RFC4862 says that DAD does not need to be pe= rformed on interfaces that have

DupAddrDetectTransmits set to 0. The documen= t therefore shows flexibility for

determining when DAD is needed.


Perhaps, but=C2=A0DupAddrDetectT= ransmits is an "autoconfiguration-related variable to be configured by= system management for each multicast-capable interface". That stateme= nt does not allow an implementation to autonomously decide to set it to 0, = nor does it allow anyone (implementation or system manager) to set it to 0 = for a particular prefix, bot not other prefixes, on an interface.

You could argue that it's within the remit of v6ops to = publish an operational guidance document that says that implementations cou= ld or should do this, though some might argue that that's a call that o= nly 6man can make.

If there wer= e the possibility that the same prefix could be delegated to more than

one node, then there would be much bigger is= sues that could not be resolved by

DAD anyway. It would constitute a major rout= ing issue and, again, DAD would not

be able to resolve it. So, again, there is n= o need for DAD.


FWIW I do = agree with you. There is no technical need for DAD in such a situation. But= just because there is no technical need to do DAD doesn't mean that we= can state that a host can skip doing DAD, because that violates the letter= of RFC4862.

In other words, my objection is not t= echnical, but procedural. If we want to make it possible for hosts to avoid= DAD in this situation, we can't just bury that statement in this draft= . We need a more targeted document and perhaps 6man involvement.
--94eb2c0b7316474e99052698be1a-- From nobody Thu Dec 10 23:21:42 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98A1D1A89A8 for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:21:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -114.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-114.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bcKPyflaJtCI for ; Thu, 10 Dec 2015 23:21:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No 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rcdn-core-8.cisco.com ([173.37.93.144]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 11 Dec 2015 07:21:38 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com (xch-rcd-015.cisco.com [173.37.102.25]) by rcdn-core-8.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tBB7Lc6h004842 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 07:21:38 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-013.cisco.com (173.37.102.23) by XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com (173.37.102.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 01:21:38 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-013.cisco.com ([173.37.102.23]) by XCH-RCD-013.cisco.com ([173.37.102.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 01:21:38 -0600 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: "Templin, Fred L" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRM+SSrD+a7h3APEy9mK9boYypOg== Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 07:21:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> 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charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.11.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <20151211080023.27306.6615.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 00:00:23 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-in-real-world-02.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:00:23 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations Working Group of the IETF. Title : Observations on the Dropping of Packets with IPv6 Extension Headers in the Real World Authors : Fernando Gont J. Linkova Tim Chown Will(Shucheng) Liu Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-in-real-world-02.txt Pages : 15 Date : 2015-12-10 Abstract: This document presents real-world data regarding the extent to which packets with IPv6 extension headers are dropped in the Internet (as originally measured in August 2014 and later in June 2015, with similar results), and where in the network such dropping occurs. The aforementioned results serve as a problem statement that is expected to trigger operational advice on the filtering of IPv6 packets carrying IPv6 Extension Headers, so that the situation improves over time. This document also explains how the aforementioned results were obtained, such that the corresponding measurements can be reproduced by other members of the community and repeated over time to observe changes in the handling of packets with IPv6 extension headers. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-in-real-world/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-in-real-world-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-in-real-world-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Fri Dec 11 00:01:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1D0091ACC8C for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 00:01:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oEB55zb3VXcX for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 00:01:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs-a.tc.umn.edu (vs-a.tc.umn.edu [134.84.119.220]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C95711ACC8B for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 00:01:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f174.google.com (mail-ig0-f174.google.com [209.85.213.174]) by vs-a.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:01:20 -0600 (CST) X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] mail-ig0-f174.google.com [209.85.213.174] #+LO+TS+TR X-Umn-Classification: local Received: by mail-ig0-f174.google.com with SMTP id ph11so33335419igc.1 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 00:01:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=umn.edu; s=google; h=reply-to:subject:references:to:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=2ZMJQJxHH98B2vckrIIVkyKQhbbunrvMOliASa68hys=; b=ggR63QmF1/KMWlzK4OR19rHijKmDZKgbISz9IqAeNlq5bM1O4n6v5N8wJgSIVg/srq koRvV1CByYDgg0oZ+Zr9dlk/3dmLXF4vemv2Mtab93TRKII5elJQiPNa1pJkmXn5OWAU AuHgFKw9sXXWNHrHLU5deF63A5VuEteeZXzRQ= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:reply-to:subject:references:to:cc:from :organization:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=2ZMJQJxHH98B2vckrIIVkyKQhbbunrvMOliASa68hys=; b=Dr0EM0fZuokipQDCrHwdDrCE2AUZnaYLhG7ElzgT8GHxI7P66PgojMcCZWfOn5fUxy wqD848L5p+nSMtowdpkOjBICFh0XltsiY+vBUjXjpkPepK49CalofYQ6x04k7UepNsHp LyfYMxinPN0Xi+zpr3DhdMXVCIlTnQ/FcsNqFiETrF+0oGIiQyvBxGVK3pk11Gx7hLsa QcRNrrH44z0MpDw605sz0acscIxAphHFuR1Xujh/nqZt/eHvJ6ZXrp2rfPSWqZNUcAf0 4URbA/MrVCjrJEj3SQ2g1xrFuxZ7wqGZV3gcPc4i3nzm8b41K1uyHel6s9hNQg5BX/8g bmPg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn2ffU7MKRNwsJX/Q0N+ryCNOZi5Cqd8Eiz0VkdD61eUJJDJetDWqDPI6971dT01Stn66dkKxaFldzJzFR0Xidfb8+1B+tQqhCOh6+WgeeDEXioFqzm5WZ/wYaprM3euk+i6QPuI5ZQm/cufghi5oSR1YYH4g== X-Received: by 10.50.160.33 with SMTP id xh1mr3221313igb.25.1449820880097; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 00:01:20 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.50.160.33 with SMTP id xh1mr3221302igb.25.1449820879955; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 00:01:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from x-10-104-135-89.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu ([2607:ea00:107:2001:b42e:2017:25fa:b6d0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g19sm6568836ioe.2.2015.12.11.00.01.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 00:01:18 -0800 (PST) References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> To: "Fred Baker (fred)" , Lorenzo Colitti From: David Farmer Organization: University of Minnesota Message-ID: <566A82CC.6060208@umn.edu> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 02:01:16 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.3.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: David Farmer List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:01:24 -0000 Lorenzo, I think you hit the nail on the head; you make it clear that hosts still need to be good neighbors even if, and especially if, the network doesn't enforce a limit. On a side note, we're beginning a WiFi infrastructure procurement cycle here at the University of Minnesota. I'll be adding /64 prefix per host as feature I'm looking for in our RFP. Fred, The update seems to cover my issue, I think it's good to go. Thanks On 12/10/15 11:47 , Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > We have an updated version of draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability. > I'd like to believe that it addresses the discussion at IETF 94 and > subsequent mail discussion. Does it? > > We had a WGLC September 24-October 7, an update, the latest discussion, > and this update. I believe that we are done. Barring objections, we'll > send it in. > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > -- ================================================ David Farmer Email: farmer@umn.edu Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 1-612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 1-612-812-9952 ================================================ From nobody Fri Dec 11 03:04:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 959491A889B for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 03:04:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.983 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.983 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XFjFS5Qg5-Fj for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 03:04:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00D4E1A888C for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 03:03:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id tBBB3vih017406 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:03:57 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 8E72A2085EE for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:10:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 864CC2085E8 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:10:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id tBBB3v6s020480 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:03:57 +0100 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <62B5FB1E-C23A-4B95-A75E-E06C54FC92DA@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87CAC@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <566AAD9C.2020400@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:03:56 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F87CAC@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:04:02 -0000 Le 10/12/2015 21:48, Templin, Fred L a écrit : > Hi Fred, > > Here is a suggestion: > > --- > > OLD: > > Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > possible for the host not to assign global IPv6 addresses directly > to its physical network interface, but instead to assign them to an > internal interface such as a loopback interface. This obviates the > need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection > for anything other than the link-local address on its physical > network interface, reducing network traffic. The "instead" word in this OLD paragraph makes read as if the only means to avoid DAD and NA on the egress interface is to assign the global on an internal interface ("virtual", or "logical" interface, see a definition of it in draft-ietf-netext-logical-interface-support). That's not the only means. To stress the point: you can also assign it on the real egress interface, provided you dont put the prefix as an on-link prefix, and maybe set variable=0. > NEW: > > Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > > possible for the host to assign global IPv6 addresses without the > need > > to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection > > for anything other than the link-local address on its physical > network > > interface, reducing network traffic. The host can assign the > addresses > > either to an internal interface such as a loopback interface per the > > weak end system model, or to the physical interface per the strong > > end system model as long as it does not add the /64 to the physical > > interface’s Prefix List. I agree. Alex > > --- > > In terms of why this is important, I would defer to RFC1122 and to > what > > is expected of currently widely-deployed implementations. AFACIT, > > strong end system is more “host-like” than weak end system. How > > important that is is beyond the scope of my understanding, but an > > alternative that can and should be mentioned in this document. > > Thanks – Fred > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > *From:*Fred Baker (fred) [mailto:fred@cisco.com] *Sent:* Thursday, > December 10, 2015 12:00 PM *To:* Templin, Fred L *Cc:* > v6ops@ietf.org *Subject:* Re: > draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability > > Hmm. What specifically would you like it to say? > > What I am thinking about is a similar discussion in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-6man-multi-homed-host-02#section-1.1. > The context there was that said draft wants a host to send its > packets to a predictable first hop router unless it has direct > connectivity to the destination, and that first hop router is a/the > one that emitted a relevant RA. That's not quite RFC 1122's "strong > host" model, but it is definitely not the "weak host" model. The host > model is relevant because which router it talks with is important. > > In draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability, why is the host model > important? I understand it to be saying that where a host might be > given one address, it should be possible to give the host multiple > addresses, and throws some numbers around. In that context, is the > strong or weak host model, or the model in > draft-ietf-6man-multi-homed-host important? > > *From: *"Templin, Fred L" > *Date: *Thursday, December 10, > 2015 at 9:59 AM *To: *Fred Baker >, "v6ops@ietf.org " > > *Subject: *RE: > draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability > > Hi Fred, > > I have made two points: 1) that DAD implications should be discussed, > and > > 2) that strong vs weak end system alternatives should be discussed. > The > > new draft addresses point 1) to a certain extent (again, this was my > point) > > but does not fully address point 2) as the past messages on the list > have > > shown. So, IMHO the draft is not yet ready to be advanced. > > Thanks – Fred > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > *From:*v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Fred > Baker (fred) *Sent:* Thursday, December 10, 2015 9:47 AM *To:* > v6ops@ietf.org *Subject:* [v6ops] > draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability > > We have an updated version of > draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability. I'd like to believe that it > addresses the discussion at IETF 94 and subsequent mail discussion. > Does it? > > We had a WGLC September 24-October 7, an update, the latest > discussion, and this update. I believe that we are done. Barring > objections, we'll send it in. > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt > > > > > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Fri Dec 11 03:05:06 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4BD931A8865 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 03:05:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.983 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.983 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HELO_EQ_FR=0.35, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mZFNOa6BcbpB for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 03:05:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 815131A8825 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 03:05:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id tBBB51VN016424 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:05:01 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 6A9182083B5 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:11:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58264207E5C for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:11:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id tBBB50Tu021175 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:05:01 +0100 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <566AADDC.9080902@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:05:00 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:05:05 -0000 Thanks for the new draft. I agree with its main parts. The point raised about PD is actually an excellent and new undocumented point for end-systems relying PD to get more addresses and, incidentally, avoid DAD for one address. It's strange people block on it just because of DAD and a zeroed variable. PD can only outperform SLAAC/DHCP-Adddress/64share in getting more addresses and avoid SLAAC on the egress interface. Now - is your intention to avoid avoiding SLAAC on the egress interface? Why? Alex Le 10/12/2015 18:47, Fred Baker (fred) a écrit : > We have an updated version of draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability. > I'd like to believe that it addresses the discussion at IETF 94 and > subsequent mail discussion. Does it? > > We had a WGLC September 24-October 7, an update, the latest discussion, > and this update. I believe that we are done. Barring objections, we'll > send it in. > > https://tools.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Fri Dec 11 05:52:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B5DD31A90A8 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 05:52:58 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "Cc" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qn0ON_23slXz for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 05:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo.hq.phicoh.net [130.37.15.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 790171A8BC0 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 05:52:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #91) id m1a7O7u-0000ETC; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:52:50 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 10 Dec 2015 17:59:27 +0000 ." <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:52:50 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:52:58 -0000 > 2) that strong vs weak end system alternatives should be discussed. > The It seems to me that the only sensible model for PD is that any node receiving a prefix is a router. Any other interpretation just leads to confusion. As discussed earlier, for redirection to work, the receiving node has to be a router for the purposes for ND. If we declare the node to be a router then the whole strong vs weak end system discussion goes away. I don't think there is any downside. In my opinion, hosts should not assign addresses to internal interfaces and then use them on other interfaces. If a router does that then the situation is completely clear. Being a router doesn't seem to impose unreasonable requirements. There is one thing that worries me. PD makes sense if the nodes receiving prefixes are partipating in a routing protocol. But we are not doing that (at least not in the context of this draft). Instead we have a model where DHCPv6 essentially installs a static route in the delegating router's RIB. In the long run this is likely to lead to all kinds of scalability problems. But maybe it is best to wait for things to go wrong because the obvious fix would involve changing ND. And I'm sure nobody would want to do that at this time. From nobody Fri Dec 11 08:44:57 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 401541A02F1 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:44:54 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2KbeWlBBDVSH for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:44:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B82881A0366 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:44:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBBGipLb017477; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 09:44:51 -0700 Received: from XCH-PHX-210.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-210.sw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.65]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBBGiiTS017419 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 09:44:44 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-210.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.10.114]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:44:44 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "Fred Baker (fred)" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRM14kKZlCFjAH9ESehHqsgR6qp57F9hFw Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:44:43 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8859D@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> 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CjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9kaXY+DQo8L2JvZHk+DQo8L2h0bWw+DQo= --_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8859DXCHBLV504nwnosb_-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 08:45:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 089281B2D10; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:45:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, GB_I_LETTER=-2, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KBUNWMUljOtg; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:45:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x234.google.com (mail-io0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3870B1B2D11; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:45:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by ioir85 with SMTP id r85so132593342ioi.1; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:45:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=g9tTEb34etqmv3+y80Uj4t3jQUqwVjxl0NkTdGd30J8=; b=sP9AZe6T4RodxWPOmF1aPov9SsZunkqOMdTCRguJGMTe5/VBojx4OuYITiFc9RUm+0 Q+/foab5FChgjQNEu54Js/reNF+kJzEE+N9hua1P6fI2Boph5dG7Q2R6BApi522ILXip hhRCVAqEnybuPU750vCxB+nuwG1lovtvVe1msFv0t3eWvZ9xEDikhzJ0jT6kdPF4U6vM zEd0VL4fjNZSveIykjJsTnShhrbkOZj8T/nVfR0y+4VKwuzMwvu+25H4d/4UOzEwNLvF /bIgasTig6ajC7D3wiz7GXZ86ZgHtr+CKi2GJgCEVuyZRASL2cD62ZU9yrI2vu9HEfgm Rixg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.170.194 with SMTP id g63mr2206472ioj.178.1449852310456; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:45:10 -0800 (PST) Sender: jinmei.tatuya@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.47.217 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:45:10 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:45:10 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: whHyY2hny5flBlY_XvyIPknWh0I Message-ID: From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= To: Lorenzo Colitti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , "v6ops@ietf.org" , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:45:16 -0000 At Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:38:53 +0900, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > > DAD anyway. It would constitute a major routing issue and, again, DAD > > would not > > > > be able to resolve it. So, again, there is no need for DAD. > > FWIW I do agree with you. There is no technical need for DAD in such a > situation. But just because there is no technical need to do DAD doesn't > mean that we can state that a host can skip doing DAD, because that > violates the letter of RFC4862. > > In other words, my objection is not technical, but procedural. If we want > to make it possible for hosts to avoid DAD in this situation, we can't just > bury that statement in this draft. We need a more targeted document and > perhaps 6man involvement. +1. That's what I suggest about a month ago, too: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/Qe-0t0g0bFWlYseZUo0yMeFDAmo BTW, in that sense I'm not even sure if we can safely add this paragraph to the 03 version of the draft: Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it possible for the host not to assign global IPv6 addresses directly to its physical network interface, but instead to assign them to an internal interface such as a loopback interface. This obviates the need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection for anything other than the link-local address on its physical network interface, reducing network traffic. As far as I can see/remember, RFC4862 (or other standard documents) doesn't explicitly obviate the need for DAD on a loopback interface. Such a DAD doesn't make sense? Maybe. But especially if we are going to publish a separate document describing cases for skipping DAD with clearly updating RFC4862, it would be better to discuss the loopback matter there, too, rather than quietly put the special case to host-addr-availability. -- JINMEI, Tatuya From nobody Fri Dec 11 09:49:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A824D1B2DBD for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 09:49:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -113.309 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-113.309 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, J_CHICKENPOX_22=0.6, J_CHICKENPOX_54=0.6, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by 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with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:49:10 -0600 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: "Templin, Fred L" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRM+SSrD+a7h3APEy9mK9boYypOp7GY0SA//+L5YA= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:49:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8859D@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8859D@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151105 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.64.123] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_DE8756E5D4E1473493DFF5C8EE4F400Aciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:49:17 -0000 --_000_DE8756E5D4E1473493DFF5C8EE4F400Aciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SW4gdGhlIGZvbGxvd2luZywgSSBhbSBzcGVha2luZyBhcyBhIG1lbWJlciBvZiB0aGUgY29tbXVu aXR5LiBJIGV4cGVjdCBvdGhlciBtZW1iZXJzIG9mIHRoZSBjb21tdW5pdHkgdG8gY2hpbWUgaW4u DQoNClRoZSAiU3Ryb25nIiBhbmQgIldlYWsiIGhvc3QgbW9kZWxzIGFyZSBkZWZpbmVkIGluIHNl Y3Rpb24gMy4zLjQuMiAgIk11bHRpaG9taW5nIFJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyIsIGFuZCBub3QgaW4gdGhl IHBhcnQgd2hpY2ggaXMgbm9ybWF0aXZlLCBidXQgdGhlICJkaXNjdXNzaW9uIiBwcmVzZW50ZWQg dG8gYXNzaXN0IGluIHVuZGVyc3RhbmRpbmcuIFRoZSByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgc3RhdGVkIGhhdmUg dG8gZG8gd2l0aCB0aGUgY2hvaWNlIG9mIGEgc291cmNlIGFkZHJlc3MsIGFuZCBjb25zaXN0IG9m 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15.00.1104.009; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:58:37 -0600 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: "Templin, Fred L" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRM+SSrD+a7h3APEy9mK9boYypOp7GY0SA//+L5YCAAAKlgA== Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:58:37 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8859D@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151105 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.64.123] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_A0D9CBA689044930A48065E44538C486ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: 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Cg== --_000_A0D9CBA689044930A48065E44538C486ciscocom_-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 10:24:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F112D1B2DDE for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:24:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nv4eMgPdiiRr for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:23:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AB0D1A9093 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:23:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBBINjm6038303; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:23:45 -0700 Received: from XCH-PHX-410.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-410.sw.nos.boeing.com [10.57.37.41]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBBINbZu038149 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:23:38 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-410.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.10.137]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:23:37 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AdE0QNzTuslVhWWXQq6gwSWRcCbrwA== Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:23:36 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F888D3@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> 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([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xPoSrHDXhRWI; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22c.google.com (mail-pa0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 121431A9082; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:50:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by padhk6 with SMTP id hk6so29280119pad.2; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:50:01 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Veuis5s+2wlPLw1DNSyXg24bWCEQTgRAih9Nl6aDT7M=; b=IKW3/ZmfwW+dynV8igRTlETcGMwmxbL3D3c8cBnUPcDJcmThyu1WX502QKafcaG+OM ppLWaPsBKoJ4JrS8j47OsvS9esLqYE7m9CWqJhi4wjsNNAxOyZzQBh2kljsX4zw/qFO8 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([2406:e007:77e1:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o2sm27029468pap.31.2015.12.11.10.49.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:50:00 -0800 (PST) To: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= , Lorenzo Colitti References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <566B1AE0.4040101@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 07:50:08 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:50:04 -0000 I agree with Jinmei-san. Also, it seems to me that performing DAD when it isn't needed is much less risky than not performing DAD when it is needed. So the default should always be DAD. Regards Brian On 12/12/2015 05:45, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 wrote: > At Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:38:53 +0900, > Lorenzo Colitti wrote: >=20 >>> DAD anyway. It would constitute a major routing issue and, again, DAD= >>> would not >>> >>> be able to resolve it. So, again, there is no need for DAD. >> >> FWIW I do agree with you. There is no technical need for DAD in such a= >> situation. But just because there is no technical need to do DAD doesn= 't >> mean that we can state that a host can skip doing DAD, because that >> violates the letter of RFC4862. >> >> In other words, my objection is not technical, but procedural. If we w= ant >> to make it possible for hosts to avoid DAD in this situation, we can't= just >> bury that statement in this draft. We need a more targeted document an= d >> perhaps 6man involvement. >=20 > +1. That's what I suggest about a month ago, too: > https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/Qe-0t0g0bFWlYseZUo0yMeFDAmo= >=20 > BTW, in that sense I'm not even sure if we can safely add this > paragraph to the 03 version of the draft: >=20 > Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > possible for the host not to assign global IPv6 addresses directly t= o > its physical network interface, but instead to assign them to an > internal interface such as a loopback interface. This obviates the > need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection > for anything other than the link-local address on its physical > network interface, reducing network traffic. >=20 > As far as I can see/remember, RFC4862 (or other standard documents) > doesn't explicitly obviate the need for DAD on a loopback interface. > Such a DAD doesn't make sense? Maybe. But especially if we are going > to publish a separate document describing cases for skipping DAD with > clearly updating RFC4862, it would be better to discuss the loopback > matter there, too, rather than quietly put the special case to > host-addr-availability. >=20 > -- > JINMEI, Tatuya >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > . >=20 From nobody Fri Dec 11 10:55:51 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D6F121ABD3B for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:55:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AF8MG_tbtB8d for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:55:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from stl-mbsout-02.boeing.com (stl-mbsout-02.boeing.com [130.76.96.170]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5610A1A9245 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:55:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBBItlsF011944; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:55:47 -0600 Received: from XCH-PHX-212.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-212.sw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.141]) by stl-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBBIti1v011928 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:55:45 -0600 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-212.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.12.48]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:55:44 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability Thread-Index: AQHRNEWJi9gaQT0JG06mdjmRZUsRJg== Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:55:43 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:55:50 -0000 Hi Philip, > -----Original Message----- > From: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com [mailto:pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com] = On Behalf Of Philip Homburg > Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 5:50 AM > To: v6ops@ietf.org > Cc: Templin, Fred L; Fred Baker (fred) > Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability >=20 > > 2) that strong vs weak end system alternatives should be discussed. > > The >=20 > It seems to me that the only sensible model for PD is that any node > receiving a prefix is a router. I think we agreed before that the node must present the outward appearance of a router, yes. But, internally, applications are presented with the appe= arance of an ordinary host. > Any other interpretation just leads to confusion. Perhaps not if the distinction between external vs internal appearances is specified. > As discussed earlier, for redirection to work, the receiving node has to > be a router for the purposes for ND. >From an external appearance, yes. > If we declare the node to be a router then the whole strong vs weak end s= ystem > discussion goes away. >From an internal appearance, maybe not. If the interface over which the delegated prefix is received is the same interface to which addresses from the delegated prefix are assigned, then to applications it looks just like = an ordinary host. The AERO interface does just that, and we are now exploring whether the same would apply to other interface types. > I don't think there is any downside. In my opinion, hosts should not assi= gn > addresses to internal interfaces and then use them on other interfaces. > If a router does that then the situation is completely clear. Being a rou= ter > doesn't seem to impose unreasonable requirements. This is strong/weak ES consideration, where you seem to be implying that strong ES is more "host-like". But, we are wondering if this makes a difference to applications - will some applications prefer to run on one ES model vs. the other? > There is one thing that worries me. PD makes sense if the nodes receiving > prefixes are partipating in a routing protocol. But we are not doing > that (at least not in the context of this draft). Instead we have a model > where DHCPv6 essentially installs a static route in the delegating router= 's > RIB. In the long run this is likely to lead to all kinds of scalability > problems. It depends on how many nodes each delegating router serves. I don't think scaling on the order of thousands would be unreasonable. Millions might be a bit more challenging. But, if you find yourself running up against scaling limitations in delegating routers, just add more delegating routers. > But maybe it is best to wait for things to go wrong because the obvious > fix would involve changing ND. And I'm sure nobody would want to do that > at this time. I don't see any problems at this time. Well OK; there is one problem. Route= rs are not supposed to send Redirects to other routers. Which means that, with standard ND, the PD hosts would always use the dogleg path through their default router to talk to other nodes on the link. AERO fixes this by allow= ing router-to-router redirects. This is already specified in RFC6706 but update= d by AERO(bis). Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com From nobody Fri Dec 11 11:01:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E976D1A0022; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:01:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_I_LETTER=-2, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eD0Wbf_uKQtU; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from stl-mbsout-01.boeing.com (stl-mbsout-01.boeing.com [130.76.96.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FCCE1A0024; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:01:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBBJ1cBr007388; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:01:38 -0600 Received: from XCH-PHX-412.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-412.sw.nos.boeing.com [10.57.37.44]) by stl-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBBJ1RmP007339 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:01:27 -0600 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-412.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.12.16]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 11:01:27 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= , Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRNDNMKZlCFjAH9ESehHqsgR6qp57GIsKw Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:01:26 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F889AB@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:01:42 -0000 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(ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E551E1A8BBF; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:40:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hGfdfbo-qEX4; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:40:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D1611A8BB6; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 13:40:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBBLdv4N053366; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:40:08 -0700 Received: from XCH-PHX-211.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-211.sw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.140]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBBGWL33061062 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 09:32:21 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-211.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.11.139]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 08:32:20 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRM14kKZlCFjAH9ESehHqsgR6qp57EY3SQgACQlAD//3tX8IABXHGAgAAl08A= Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 16:32:19 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88567@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88567XCHBLV504nwnosb_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 21:40:12 -0000 --_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88567XCHBLV504nwnosb_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTG9yZW56bywNCg0KSSBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IOKAnGl0IGdldHMgbWVzc3nigJ0gaWYgeW91IHRy 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X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VOKtvF0k5lSf for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:32:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x232.google.com (mail-vk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E2C71A0121 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:32:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by vkgj66 with SMTP id j66so28250617vkg.1 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:32:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=KEO2mnfOuJRrqDN+DYSkaTv6lvPh7NgktWK/6FnzRxI=; b=WclGL0dcZiTJh7qd/mqjhH/0XAZk4AkcM8j0vDdndMeMKBcNZ8qQsABIoxBJFo0+I4 8nRNSD2e+IjMEMtp03Kf6Ow020pavc4fUd3HGzlB0iKQ4Iu6Zr8KjfQ119e0hkM5s7mh lw0kUG8W/Vc12/GTqvOp14wm1xEvhnNwZKivXnjooJADa6Qj9AInB52LkOiVKHuLWIne 88EFPt5YL54k/m6REdAZe0v73MHdyzDtNk2cOd+QJgbvJV9VFroEKctBXfzmqumfsCMc J2WVdeF81PsfB2p3npS5cG4A6RMGvFHpHEe7HOG4bs1FdNTUufDHsTXXa/pQXyPiXArB lUIw== X-Received: by 10.31.156.78 with SMTP id f75mr16608381vke.40.1449873125652; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:32:05 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.97.195 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:31:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 09:31:36 +1100 Message-ID: To: "Templin, Fred L" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Philip Homburg Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:32:08 -0000 On 12 December 2015 at 05:55, Templin, Fred L wrote: > Hi Philip, > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com [mailto:pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com] On Behalf Of Philip Homburg >> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 5:50 AM >> To: v6ops@ietf.org >> Cc: Templin, Fred L; Fred Baker (fred) >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability >> > This is strong/weak ES consideration, where you seem to be implying that > strong ES is more "host-like". But, we are wondering if this makes a > difference to applications - will some applications prefer to run on > one ES model vs. the other? > In the context of IPv6, for a long time I wasn't sure if it followed either the strong or weak ES model. I thought I'd found an answer in the addressing arch RFC (RFC4291): "2.1. Addressing Model IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes. An IPv6 unicast address refers to a single interface. Since each interface belongs to a single node, any of that node's interfaces' unicast addresses may be used as an identifier for the node." which I think matches the definition of the weak ES model as described in RFC1122. I think the default address selection RFC (RFC6724) also implies weak ES model, as it doesn't require source addresses to be selected from the interface used to reach the destination (although it does have a preference for them in Rule 5) I'd also wonder if RFC1122 really applies to IPv6 hosts. Although its title is generic ("Requirements for Internet Hosts -- Communication Layers"), which could be explained by it being published in 1989, the topics that might be specifically relevant to IPv6 (e.g., host models) are specifically about IPv4 behaviours. Regards, Mark. From nobody Fri Dec 11 14:51:20 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AB2E1A92AC for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:51:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IP0VX64Z_EB8 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:51:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x22d.google.com (mail-vk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D6FD01A92A9 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:51:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by vkgj66 with SMTP id j66so28463385vkg.1 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:51:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=XEp5NfiGR2X7+7eDwJvKtxVQFUDriGFtKrJWZkJAez0=; b=lThtri9wfY0MNg/kvsF4p04MR6pf1ZR3ezfde268rVByzz4MLNef2TDNqt1IYoS3kb g12+D2+gtwIl/RzA0V+tuejUef0h+ZQjlr9Fh7wM5wems+rb1HOf9HIhCl24vnQ/jVe5 m4PSflS1XCaFjLPy1TQYslcxffPNsvBrZxYi/RB3ugB+rTjUXdBR4pHj1+UiRbhWwyfu EBUdAD5DM+s9r7MHvHGIUZbLAyT/OW/HNs/TH1XhqA6cqP+ZK9hRARMRUZvQpEoXkOLk IrJmP8DU1WSbU8lm0zvtDWTuZVfVh06jsyyN/iXytumzWzfgctQnnYnOUrDYTLvvOQFB Vr/g== X-Received: by 10.31.41.131 with SMTP id p125mr16375013vkp.133.1449874277031; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:51:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.97.195 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:50:47 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 09:50:47 +1100 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:51:19 -0000 On 12 December 2015 at 00:52, Philip Homburg wrote: >> 2) that strong vs weak end system alternatives should be discussed. >> The > > It seems to me that the only sensible model for PD is that any node > receiving a prefix is a router. > I'd agree with that. I find it far easier to think about the related issues by imagining the delegated prefix is assigned to an internal logical interface, applications would be bound to/prefer/use addresses present on this internal logical interface, and that these application packets are being forwarded between the internal logical and external physical interface. Forwarding packets between interfaces is a router function so these are routers. These types of "hosts" could probably be better described as stub routers whose purpose is to run applications rather than to forward packets (a specific name for routers used only to run applications would be very useful). I think the gaps come about because these "routers" are not full participants in the routing domain protocols. Static routing for unicast traffic takes care of the unicast problem, but as they're not going to be running multicast routing protocols, and there is no effective automated static routing configuration protocol for multicast (as DHCPv6-PD is for static routing unicast towards the host), it is necessary to use the normal host to router multicast protocol instead (MLD), but to run it on a different interface than normal - on the upstream physical interface, and only for non-Solicited Node multicast groups (as they would only be useful appearing on the internal interface where the addresses are, if they're actually necessary.) > Any other interpretation just leads to confusion. > > As discussed earlier, for redirection to work, the receiving node has to > be a router for the purposes for ND. > > If we declare the node to be a router then the whole strong vs weak end system > discussion goes away. > > I don't think there is any downside. In my opinion, hosts should not assign > addresses to internal interfaces and then use them on other interfaces. > If a router does that then the situation is completely clear. Being a router > doesn't seem to impose unreasonable requirements. > > There is one thing that worries me. PD makes sense if the nodes receiving > prefixes are partipating in a routing protocol. But we are not doing > that (at least not in the context of this draft). Instead we have a model > where DHCPv6 essentially installs a static route in the delegating router's > RIB. In the long run this is likely to lead to all kinds of scalability > problems. > I'm not sure it would lead to scalability problems. RIB entries are being traded for neighbor cache entries and possibly solicited node multicast group entries if they were being tracked, so there would probably be a nett benefit if the RIB, neighbor cache and multicast group tracking resources are shared in the router. > But maybe it is best to wait for things to go wrong because the obvious > fix would involve changing ND. And I'm sure nobody would want to do that > at this time. > Agree. Regards, Mark. From nobody Fri Dec 11 14:58:58 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B572A1A92F2 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:58:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Atn5z8ohVfDX for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:58:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com [130.76.32.232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 982971A92E9 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:58:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBBMwvQM007951; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:58:57 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-508.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-blv-508.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.198]) by blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBBMwtCb007947 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:58:55 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-BLV-508.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.8.155]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 14:58:51 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Mark Smith , Philip Homburg Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability Thread-Index: AQHRM3LVLVlMAtHf902TFvF+TPjPf57EgAKwgAHmDieAAADpkA== Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:58:51 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F89C62@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 22:58:56 -0000 Hi Mark, > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Mark Smith > Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 2:51 PM > To: Philip Homburg > Cc: v6ops list > Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability >=20 > On 12 December 2015 at 00:52, Philip Homburg = wrote: > >> 2) that strong vs weak end system alternatives should be discussed. > >> The > > > > It seems to me that the only sensible model for PD is that any node > > receiving a prefix is a router. > > >=20 > I'd agree with that. I find it far easier to think about the related > issues by imagining the delegated prefix is assigned to an internal > logical interface, applications would be bound to/prefer/use addresses > present on this internal logical interface, and that these application > packets are being forwarded between the internal logical and external > physical interface. Forwarding packets between interfaces is a router > function so these are routers. Right, but that is not the case when the internal logical interface and outgoing interface are one and the same, such as with the AERO interface. In that case, there is no internal forwarding between multiple interfaces so, to hosted applications, it looks like an ordinary host and not a router. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > These types of "hosts" could probably be better described as stub > routers whose purpose is to run applications rather than to forward > packets (a specific name for routers used only to run applications > would be very useful). I think the gaps come about because these > "routers" are not full participants in the routing domain protocols. >=20 > Static routing for unicast traffic takes care of the unicast problem, > but as they're not going to be running multicast routing protocols, > and there is no effective automated static routing configuration > protocol for multicast (as DHCPv6-PD is for static routing unicast > towards the host), it is necessary to use the normal host to router > multicast protocol instead (MLD), but to run it on a different > interface than normal - on the upstream physical interface, and only > for non-Solicited Node multicast groups (as they would only be useful > appearing on the internal interface where the addresses are, if > they're actually necessary.) >=20 > > Any other interpretation just leads to confusion. > > > > As discussed earlier, for redirection to work, the receiving node has t= o > > be a router for the purposes for ND. > > > > If we declare the node to be a router then the whole strong vs weak end= system > > discussion goes away. > > > > I don't think there is any downside. In my opinion, hosts should not as= sign > > addresses to internal interfaces and then use them on other interfaces. > > If a router does that then the situation is completely clear. Being a r= outer > > doesn't seem to impose unreasonable requirements. > > > > There is one thing that worries me. PD makes sense if the nodes receivi= ng > > prefixes are partipating in a routing protocol. But we are not doing > > that (at least not in the context of this draft). Instead we have a mod= el > > where DHCPv6 essentially installs a static route in the delegating rout= er's > > RIB. In the long run this is likely to lead to all kinds of scalability > > problems. > > >=20 > I'm not sure it would lead to scalability problems. RIB entries are > being traded for neighbor cache entries and possibly solicited node > multicast group entries if they were being tracked, so there would > probably be a nett benefit if the RIB, neighbor cache and multicast > group tracking resources are shared in the router. >=20 > > But maybe it is best to wait for things to go wrong because the obvious > > fix would involve changing ND. And I'm sure nobody would want to do tha= t > > at this time. > > >=20 > Agree. >=20 > Regards, > Mark. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Fri Dec 11 15:26:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC4751A047A for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 15:26:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -114.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-114.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IHk-RvkNFuUl for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 15:25:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B42C71A0461 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 15:25:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=3150; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1449876357; x=1451085957; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:content-id:content-transfer-encoding: mime-version; bh=KGtDRWmzBc8oG9CW6XeriqEM4SWVCpjuqchuMEBJexE=; b=RrBjlKz64zNbaEkmkHDylJ6fXyJoaf39pf4Cw3dP0+H2zHbjvgaZtsWP 6JvL39TIPvRLydBsYWb5g6pDoz+kOUnsSpHn9R357/ztAvYn2rf9dM9Po 0slc9nN3/Xc+Fz3vUqJFryEeBllGboTtjoHhs8MPFyOz+Z3w4jgrYMmHH E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AOAgAYW2tW/4kNJK1egzqBQQa9KgENg?= =?us-ascii?q?WKGDgIcgQ04FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ1AQEEIxE5DBACAQgaAiYCAgIfERUQAgQOBRS?= =?us-ascii?q?IBgMSrFCNGg2EPQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARiBAYdkgm6CU4IegwYvg?= =?us-ascii?q?RoFlnIBi0uBeJU2h1kBHwEBQoQEcoRegQgBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,415,1444694400"; d="scan'208";a="217168898" Received: from alln-core-4.cisco.com ([173.36.13.137]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 11 Dec 2015 23:25:56 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com (xch-rcd-015.cisco.com [173.37.102.25]) by alln-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tBBNPu1e016322 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 11 Dec 2015 23:25:56 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-013.cisco.com (173.37.102.23) by XCH-RCD-015.cisco.com (173.37.102.25) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:25:56 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-013.cisco.com ([173.37.102.23]) by XCH-RCD-013.cisco.com ([173.37.102.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:25:56 -0600 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: Mark Smith , "Templin, Fred L" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability Thread-Index: AQHRNGPOUBjv/RQr3kmGSLaFa+Xk4p7GTEGA Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 23:25:56 +0000 Message-ID: <337FA56A-7873-49D6-9029-35E2EBE1AF84@cisco.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151105 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.19.64.123] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <79AC08F0D6032E448A3A016216ACE078@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Philip Homburg Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 23:26:02 -0000 T24gMTIvMTEvMTUsIDI6MzEgUE0sICJ2Nm9wcyBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgTWFyayBTbWl0aCIgPHY2 b3BzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIG1hcmt6enpzbWl0aEBnbWFpbC5jb20+ IHdyb3RlOg0KDQoNCg0KPkknZCBhbHNvIHdvbmRlciBpZiBSRkMxMTIyIHJlYWxseSBhcHBsaWVz IHRvIElQdjYgaG9zdHMuIEFsdGhvdWdoIGl0cw0KPnRpdGxlIGlzIGdlbmVyaWMgKCJSZXF1aXJl bWVudHMgZm9yIEludGVybmV0IEhvc3RzIC0tIENvbW11bmljYXRpb24NCj5MYXllcnMiKSwgd2hp Y2ggY291bGQgYmUgZXhwbGFpbmVkIGJ5IGl0IGJlaW5nIHB1Ymxpc2hlZCBpbiAxOTg5LCB0aGUN Cj50b3BpY3MgdGhhdCBtaWdodCBiZSBzcGVjaWZpY2FsbHkgcmVsZXZhbnQgdG8gSVB2NiAoZS5n LiwgaG9zdCBtb2RlbHMpDQo+YXJlIHNwZWNpZmljYWxseSBhYm91dCBJUHY0IGJlaGF2aW91cnMu DQoNCkFnYWluIHNwZWFraW5nIGFzIGFuIGluZGl2aWR1YWwgY29udHJpYnV0b3IuIEkgd2FzIHRo ZXJlIGFzIFJGQyAxMTIyLzMgY2FtZSBvdXQgYW5kIHdhcyBwcmVzZW50IGZvciBzb21lIG9mIHRo ZSBkaXNjdXNzaW9ucywgYW5kIGVkaXRlZCBSRkMgMTgxMi4NCg0KVGhlIHByb2Nlc3MgdGhhdCBy ZXN1bHRlZCBpbiBSRkNzIDExMjIvMTEyMyBhbmQgMTgxMiwgd2VyZSB0aGV5IHRvIG9jY3VyIHRv ZGF5LCBwcm9iYWJseSB3b3VsZCBoYXZlIGJlZW4gZG9uZSBpbiBhIGRpZmZlcmVudCB3YXkuIFRo ZSBpc3N1ZSB3YXMgdGhhdCwgaGF2aW5nIHRlc3RlZCBSRkNzIDc2MCBhbmQgNzkxLCA3OTIsIGFu ZCA3OTMsIGRldmVsb3BlZCBhIGNvbmNlcHQgdGhhdCB3YXNuJ3QgcHJlc2VudCBpbiBjbGFzc2lj YWwgYWRkcmVzc2luZyAoc3VibmV0cyksIGdvbmUgdGhyb3VnaCB0aGUgZXhwZXJpZW5jZSB3aXRo IEJTRCA0LjEgKHdoaWNoIGhhZCBhIHRydWx5IGF3ZnVsIFRDUCBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiksIENT TkVUICh3aGljaCB3YXMgYmFzZWQgb24gWC4yNSwgb3BlbmluZyB1cCBhIG5ldyBjaXJjdWl0IGFu eSB0aW1lIHRoYXQgdGhlIGFjdGl2ZSBzZXQgc2VlbWVkIG92ZXJ3aGVsbWVkLCBhbmQgYXMgYSBy ZXN1bHQgaW50cm9kdWNlZCByZW9yZGVyaW5nIG9mIElQIHRyYWZmaWMgaW4gYSBodWdlIHdheSks IGFuZCB0aGUgY29uZ2VzdGl2ZSBjb2xsYXBzZSBvZiB0aGUgNTYgS0JQUyBOU0ZOZXQsIGFuZCBu b3cgZmFjaW5nIHRoZSBkZXBsb3ltZW50IG9mIHJlZ2lvbmFsICBjb25zb3J0aWEgKHdoaWNoIGEg ZmV3IHllYXJzIGxhdGVyIGJlY2FtZSBjb21tZXJjaWFsIHByb3ZpZGVycyksIHRoZSBncmF5YmVh cmRzIG9mIHRoZSBJbnRlcm5ldCBmZWx0IHRoYXQgdGhlcmUgd2FzIGEgbmVlZCB0byBjYXB0dXJl LCBzb21laG93LCB3aGF0IHRoZSBjb21tdW5pdHkgaGFkIGxlYXJuZWQuIFRvZGF5LCB3ZSB3b3Vs ZCBoYXZlIGEgNzkxYmlzLCA3OTJiaXMsIDc5M2JpcywgcGVyaGFwcyBhIDk1MGJpcywgYW5kIHNv IG9uLiBJbiAxOTg5LCB0aGV5IHdlcmUgZG9uZSBhcyBhIHNpbmdsZSBkb2N1bWVudCBmb3IgSG9z dCBSZXF1aXJlbWVudHMsIHdoaWNoIHdoZW4gcHVibGlzaGVkIGFzIGFuIFJGQyB3YXMgZGl2aWRl ZCBpbnRvIHR3bywgYW5kIHRoZSBSb3V0ZXIgUmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIGFzIHdoYXQgYmVjYW1lIFJG Q3MgMTcxNiBhbmQgMTAwOSwgdXBkYXRlZCAoQ0lEUiwgcHJpbWFyaWx5LCBidXQgYWxzbyBkZXBy ZWNhdGluZyBSSVApIHRvIGJlY29tZSAxODEyLg0KDQpBcyB5b3Ugc2F5LCB0aGF0IGxlYXJuaW5n IHdhcyBwcmltYXJpbHkgYWJvdXQgSVB2NCBhbmQgaXRzIGNvbXBhbmlvbiBwcm90b2NvbHMuIEhv d2V2ZXIsIEkgdGhpbmsgSVB2NiBkZXJpdmVzIGZyb20gdGhlIHNhbWUgcm9vdHMsIGFuZCB3ZSBo YXZlIGEgbG90IHRvIGxlYXJuIGZyb20gdGhlIGV4cGVyaWVuY2UgaW4gSVB2NC4gU28gSSB3b3Vs ZCBub3Qgc2F5ICJSRkMgMTEyMi8xMTIzLzE4MTIgaXMgbm9ybWF0aXZlIGZvciBJUHY2IjsgYXMg YSBtYXR0ZXIgb2YgZmFjdCwgdGhlIHRpdGxlIG9mIFJGQyAxODEyIGlzICJSZXF1aXJlbWVudHMg Zm9yIElQIFZlcnNpb24gNCBSb3V0ZXJzIiBleGFjdGx5IHRvIGNsYXJpZnkgdGhhdCBxdWVzdGlv biwgYXMgY29tcGFyZWQgdG8gdGhlIHRpdGxlIG9mIGl0cyBwcmVkZWNlc3NvciwgIlRvd2FyZHMg UmVxdWlyZW1lbnRzIGZvciBJUCBSb3V0ZXJzIi4gSSB3b3VsZCwgaG93ZXZlciwgc3Ryb25nbHkg ZW5jb3VyYWdlIGNvbnNpZGVyYXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIHBvaW50cyBjb3ZlcmVkIGluIHRob3NlIGRv Y3VtZW50cyBieSBhbmFsb2d5Lg0K From nobody Fri Dec 11 17:00:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D26861AC3C2 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:00:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9bny4jCFMLO1 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:00:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x22a.google.com (mail-vk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B05E41AC3C1 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:00:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by vkca188 with SMTP id a188so126663190vkc.0 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:00:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gPO8lnzOUouY+POrODQ/D6XjOv74b2r2f8Pn7gS8MOg=; b=hZc4xDf13rLXF0cFTB6dB+Q9c+3H6/azjb2OlOcFZzBsJ2Pxs/owikFyRSzcEojx4M VV+XaiU34Her9HFmxcj+H+r1YIxcFM+GN6Xfxy3BkQJhUl/Y/m9UqlgcFWGpCTWgx+GO oMi/2pNRZVkNFxXHiKcd1z5g8RYtIiiLLGKk3RHbmUPPNvrZalufsAzect61guvJ82nV z45mLaAT3WqUYhT7OuaKgFFOD1SrD0s3p+Zv7s0325Bo3ZTPdN2MwLe6oqkfvr4qzmYD HoKwUHCJKx1EmvDyONPy5BgwkdpnI4fr6Qz8yYe5I7l2eCKqGSzKIbn8sEzKppVZYfoy aJFA== X-Received: by 10.31.107.193 with SMTP id k62mr15259091vki.27.1449882055885; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:00:55 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.97.195 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:00:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <337FA56A-7873-49D6-9029-35E2EBE1AF84@cisco.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <337FA56A-7873-49D6-9029-35E2EBE1AF84@cisco.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:00:26 +1100 Message-ID: To: "Fred Baker (fred)" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Philip Homburg Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 01:00:58 -0000 Hi Fred, On 12 December 2015 at 10:25, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > On 12/11/15, 2:31 PM, "v6ops on behalf of Mark Smith" wrote: > > > >>I'd also wonder if RFC1122 really applies to IPv6 hosts. Although its >>title is generic ("Requirements for Internet Hosts -- Communication >>Layers"), which could be explained by it being published in 1989, the >>topics that might be specifically relevant to IPv6 (e.g., host models) >>are specifically about IPv4 behaviours. > > Again speaking as an individual contributor. I was there as RFC 1122/3 ca= me out and was present for some of the discussions, and edited RFC 1812. > > The process that resulted in RFCs 1122/1123 and 1812, were they to occur = today, probably would have been done in a different way. The issue was that= , having tested RFCs 760 and 791, 792, and 793, developed a concept that wa= sn't present in classical addressing (subnets), gone through the experience= with BSD 4.1 (which had a truly awful TCP implementation), CSNET (which wa= s based on X.25, opening up a new circuit any time that the active set seem= ed overwhelmed, and as a result introduced reordering of IP traffic in a hu= ge way), and the congestive collapse of the 56 KBPS NSFNet, and now facing = the deployment of regional consortia (which a few years later became comme= rcial providers), the graybeards of the Internet felt that there was a need= to capture, somehow, what the community had learned. Today, we would have = a 791bis, 792bis, 793bis, perhaps a 950bis, and so on. In 1989, they were d= one as a single document for Host Requirements, which when published as an = RFC was divided into two, and the Router Requirements as what became RFCs 1= 716 and 1009, updated (CIDR, primarily, but also deprecating RIP) to become= 1812. > > As you say, that learning was primarily about IPv4 and its companion prot= ocols. However, I think IPv6 derives from the same roots, and we have a lot= to learn from the experience in IPv4. So I would not say "RFC 1122/1123/18= 12 is normative for IPv6"; as a matter of fact, the title of RFC 1812 is "R= equirements for IP Version 4 Routers" exactly to clarify that question, as = compared to the title of its predecessor, "Towards Requirements for IP Rout= ers". I would, however, strongly encourage consideration of the points cove= red in those documents by analogy. I suppose my thought was really just about being cautious of ascribing RFC1122 IPv4 behaviours directly to IPv6 when there might be IPv6 specific behaviours in those areas described in IPv6 RFCs. Regards, Mark. From nobody Fri Dec 11 17:05:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B50E11AC3CE for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:05:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w2gXv2QiCi6y for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:05:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x22f.google.com (mail-qk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 162FF1AC3E8 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:05:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by qkht125 with SMTP id t125so64486647qkh.3 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:05:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=68svtOlkI3+uNKcDby9HNjl/a055BKg7cLEV+l2DOu4=; b=VzDM3+w284VfcP9C06ZhNDrOmqvBRIkWz5IIwkFIZJz3nBBTuMyPr00Qm7Cg7xxW/7 JkT7Mhr/tfTEesO5G+Nl1+POhtmUTkycexgC4Vgw1wnJ6rTztL9DKZTPeYE7lEqhCHNM mTsfhQhFCzXERpRr3qZJRRvtkKoaXebLEQkXRTlksl1FMn35rvfvLUU4SaWj+M9sPZQP 1aj/++iIYzGKZriEtv9WkaAXlbym+Qqa+f+ClhogJiPX1s8j7hazXiqSUyGbp6n5sdsJ gmY8JK0EqF7MWY2d4TSO29nmJPTba4FFCJhcRunG4X5NY5kN5SOMqBaCZPZy8sPyIZAq fRRA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=68svtOlkI3+uNKcDby9HNjl/a055BKg7cLEV+l2DOu4=; b=KEyQDDiKYBn43sun+TZ/ncTFMLA9WmNg/UegeS4byTmgccy+ChslKwp010DQu2nmeB HuWLj7zABx1iG48c9xb8HaKRoLqacJax95ukvGt7cCkWe2hc2YxSZIhNwnUR9A/bw7kZ KkaL3Ktj1cuRE+W34mXHgDktKq8mV/phBQN1YSExEy38TvMk9egk/7H7f2ID6KPjhMYy r7oF3Qm6UfeJnHE7IpKKIEryLdmXBqpcMQ+En5zwCYQo6/3qcMjTxYnNE570LpDks/4j v3u/9rCWYymTf24JwAm0d42mMqidB7LeeIxJgC15wtfAl9g9fl174Rn9iuVOeaz+QS06 ZrOg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl2JmPaK54/4w/E0FN6NysBjtKc+NIiu8nq0RDJrXqif2G+of0EJDv7xhkUX2RgrlUeE+TnFr3FbJhwlYzJ1ZbBrQtnJZEEpIkoODQP9K8WY0t+6QA= X-Received: by 10.13.205.199 with SMTP id p190mr11166983ywd.116.1449882331981; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:05:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:05:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 10:05:12 +0900 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114e5eb65d9ac40526a90958 Archived-At: Cc: "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , "v6ops@ietf.org" , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 01:05:37 -0000 --001a114e5eb65d9ac40526a90958 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:45 AM, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 wrote: > BTW, in that sense I'm not even sure if we can safely add this > paragraph to the 03 version of the draft: > > Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > possible for the host not to assign global IPv6 addresses directly to > its physical network interface, but instead to assign them to an > internal interface such as a loopback interface. This obviates the > need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection > for anything other than the link-local address on its physical > network interface, reducing network traffic. > > As far as I can see/remember, RFC4862 (or other standard documents) > doesn't explicitly obviate the need for DAD on a loopback interface. > Such a DAD doesn't make sense? Maybe. But especially if we are going > to publish a separate document describing cases for skipping DAD with > clearly updating RFC4862, it would be better to discuss the loopback > matter there, too, rather than quietly put the special case to > host-addr-availability. > How about making a slight tweak in the ordering and changing the text to this: This obviates the need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection on its physical network interface for anything other than the link-local address, reducing network traffic= . I think that's a statement that does not conflict in any way with RFC 4862. Because the global addresses are not assigned to the physical interface, the node does not need to do ND or DAD on the physical interface for anything except the link-local address. Whether such a node would do DAD internally over "an internal interface such as a loopback interface" then becomes a separate question. Optionally, we could also change "loopback interface" to "loopback interface or bridge interface" which is likely what is going to happen in reality. --001a114e5eb65d9ac40526a90958 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On S= at, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:45 AM, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei@= wide.ad.jp> wrote:
BTW, in that sense I&#= 39;m not even sure if we can safely add this
paragraph to the 03 version of the draft:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0possible for the host not to assign global IPv6 addresses dire= ctly to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0its physical network interface, but instead to assign them to = an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0internal interface such as a loopback interface.=C2=A0 This ob= viates the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Dete= ction
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for anything other than the link-local address on its physical=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network interface, reducing network traffic.

As far as I can see/remember, RFC4862 (or other standard documents)
doesn't explicitly obviate the need for DAD on a loopback interface. Such a DAD doesn't make sense?=C2=A0 Maybe.=C2=A0 But especially if we = are going
to publish a separate document describing cases for skipping DAD with
clearly updating RFC4862, it would be better to discuss the loopback
matter there, too, rather than quietly put the special case to
host-addr-availability.

How about makin= g a slight tweak in the ordering and changing the text to this:
<= br>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This obviates the need to perform Neighbour= Discovery and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Duplicate Address Detection on its ph= ysical network interface
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for anything other than the= link-local address, reducing network traffic.

I think that's a statement that does not conflict in any way with RF= C 4862. Because the global addresses are not assigned to the physical inter= face, the node does not need to do ND or DAD on the physical interface for = anything except the link-local address.

Whether su= ch a node would do DAD internally over "an internal interface such as = a loopback interface" then becomes a separate question. Optionally, we= could also change "loopback interface" to "loopback interfa= ce or bridge interface" which is likely what is going to happen in rea= lity.
--001a114e5eb65d9ac40526a90958-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 17:07:36 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 967B61AC3EC for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:07:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iV7I5H1fnM5v for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:07:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x231.google.com (mail-qk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01C791AC3E9 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:07:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by qkht125 with SMTP id t125so64533354qkh.3 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:07:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=OBgxfJkziLoT9cLUGmPz2CcOM3XUh6xUJeid4Autdbc=; b=IPPB/a4J3yuZm+fSJMD4LgaOtJQaTNufh0ORi3d06D3AwZK+nPYLyCPZRWWgaJ7Kdw NRbp2jl0xbz4GSgz+l6OxKg9Y64xOdtNRdQX4Mp/opwFbPVm8ZwxFCM+7qrfGpe2BYS5 axh0dICJjXbfVjmwYPMQqR7gg2K1o4v6nACbZZSRSWC/oW6mpl7UQ8U5oxKLwd2qRf8k qFHhM8UdxMJyYaYMwOnEBQNCub+m3x+wkzJR38oW5+QVejLVG2J26bpLNSTMdfcHsjqD hUmJbew/sH9toXf9w2LYBVesbt8QL3lN9Bii0H1pXdm6D1Y71HMDhXBYm9NXhqoMlmUS qCCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=OBgxfJkziLoT9cLUGmPz2CcOM3XUh6xUJeid4Autdbc=; b=gAQHwctHq1fu2qo7budg6flTdI6Py7OsL1+DcIJ/Is4XsEfMIQDyDWUuzoYiSbY4/b 99biYMoxWmVRrx5BWpnpSavTU9oRxdEC+eKsfDqtaIFesy04cDzCuYh7ia2fwClS7IjR R5K848EgFKMAZ3YGgshj4IIFji8BJXP3mi9BzUqg2kG9bhYMftQkQalBYB/6Lax5eiqd eAQ1wUZ0aZL/DQo0aefFImFuyOMDZoafSDPMA2f/k5WTHgkNqSIpeCoy1YrWVqIeIb0o M9mNAd6c3nXx+rdsApkeMqmdmUeSna5P1sXx13g+8qq1ZHhWCgomtHAo0olM1CurtW97 myHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQl8Xeb3Da2/CVb+2oMPc3ZJ+Tkqfl4MCNhzWUh/Mqw/+FYEu+bPV1p6f58fZGBQmR1xB0AvCZm2zWl6K9nKxyU7NB5ImUMOC6WkLjOrbc4dBTaYn2g= X-Received: by 10.129.156.88 with SMTP id t85mr11336950ywg.156.1449882452134; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:07:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:07:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88567@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88567@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 10:07:12 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Templin, Fred L" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0b8cbe86f73d0526a91002 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 01:07:35 -0000 --94eb2c0b8cbe86f73d0526a91002 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:32 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote: > But, it might be worth asking whether there are other interface types (such > > as NBMA), or use cases for common interface types (such as > multicast-capable) > > where you can get away with turning off DAD and MLD. If you can do that, > > you can assign addresses from a PD prefix to the interface it arrived on. > Maybe, but not in this document. :-) --94eb2c0b8cbe86f73d0526a91002 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On S= at, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:32 AM, Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boei= ng.com> wrote:

But, it might be worth asking whether there = are other interface types (such

as NBMA), or use cases for common int= erface types (such as multicast-capable)

where you can get away with turning o= ff DAD and MLD. If you can do that,

you can assign addresses from a PD pr= efix to the interface it arrived on.


Maybe, but not in this document. :-)=C2=A0
--94eb2c0b8cbe86f73d0526a91002-- From nobody Fri Dec 11 17:21:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BED71AC40D; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:21:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N7NnT7CRdcb1; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x233.google.com (mail-vk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E31381AC40C; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:21:19 -0800 (PST) Received: by vkca188 with SMTP id a188so126833714vkc.0; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:21:19 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=V4Cz9lCHcOYqkJa6pTyLjP8R98i8bTm5/6M1A54+B3Y=; b=VplYhhAYyEgAxRJEpkJUejss19vgREPhqQcH84l7FGpbJc4onqpRNnAGn9iByVQ34i MGI8xj6mEcXQjjg3/ejbBnbuUdNY3hxWpx2ISpD5cuCYepWy7Wohsvwpv32gY/rSGgEO Rj/QDc0r/72CyQWCHWcMVyVlXCrg6GtYAo2Df6RaWYqDUryrG7RozYTB7o8RguKsDfip aYdJltZPXdk5ug6/Y2aAks6G5MPEKeTx40rTWJrxHtDH9pfYTbHijLjEGAai577USfpT gR8dQh27pAtmVS87XliS22Yab/89yKy/fV20DHiqpfCQxMTs7OfIw+mEBtrLZwEZr7rv jZcg== X-Received: by 10.31.15.4 with SMTP id 4mr15044845vkp.10.1449883279133; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:21:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.97.195 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 17:20:49 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 12:20:49 +1100 Message-ID: To: Lorenzo Colitti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 01:21:21 -0000 On 12 December 2015 at 12:05, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 1:45 AM, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 wrote: >> > > How about making a slight tweak in the ordering and changing the text to > this: > > This obviates the need to perform Neighbour Discovery and > Duplicate Address Detection on its physical network interface > for anything other than the link-local address, reducing network traff= ic. > > I think that's a statement that does not conflict in any way with RFC 486= 2. > Because the global addresses are not assigned to the physical interface, = the > node does not need to do ND or DAD on the physical interface for anything > except the link-local address. > +1 in my opinion. > Whether such a node would do DAD internally over "an internal interface s= uch > as a loopback interface" then becomes a separate question. Optionally, we > could also change "loopback interface" to "loopback interface or bridge > interface" which is likely what is going to happen in reality. > Also +1 in my opinion. Regards, Mark. From nobody Fri Dec 11 18:25:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FA301A6FFE; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:25:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8eKS3OWuYPbj; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-x233.google.com (mail-io0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C2641A6FE8; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:25:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by iouu10 with SMTP id u10so147970879iou.0; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:25:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=i53qIi8TXyLwOp16kDngJCPwrgLzzd+lMvEedbiKC9Q=; b=ntTYlfVo+sc0+zNLjEFvg1lPJyxnJfqt27KEYh2vjN9MAk84rKjcMWFvncXDnflvrL 6HXBkergYnyWjuAPUW75+W6MERLD7MGTFMz6lZBHJ2eXCKrimiL7UZMTtKQUQOkK5fO3 vXBT2s3KU5LLfHJX4oeO0kLoDI8Qmkwa2iTEtTqktgR41wVyE2Ny4oT4ZzSKyPaXV3aL CEcPrCBkFEzm604s0rRUlZRMBSDWXFyMYHF3HubM9cthJmnXGpIKtyWuRRl8oPY7Isqd sZV2UJq4vwrPdE+iUd9fEx2T3r0I8cv+JsJH7w9K4wKzO+vL7gVUwEZOGEw6WwP5qtmc 1/Kw== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.184.9 with SMTP id i9mr22754362iof.4.1449887153844; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:25:53 -0800 (PST) Sender: jinmei.tatuya@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.47.217 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:25:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:25:53 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: ncCH3dH9VxN9RscZLWnHx4E3Elc Message-ID: From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= To: Lorenzo Colitti Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 02:25:55 -0000 At Sat, 12 Dec 2015 10:05:12 +0900, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > > Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > > possible for the host not to assign global IPv6 addresses directly to > > its physical network interface, but instead to assign them to an > > internal interface such as a loopback interface. This obviates the > > need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection > > for anything other than the link-local address on its physical > > network interface, reducing network traffic. > > > > As far as I can see/remember, RFC4862 (or other standard documents) > > doesn't explicitly obviate the need for DAD on a loopback interface. [...] > How about making a slight tweak in the ordering and changing the text to > this: > > This obviates the need to perform Neighbour Discovery and > Duplicate Address Detection on its physical network interface > for anything other than the link-local address, reducing network traffic. Ah, okay, I realized I misunderstood the intent of the original text. I'm not sure if it was only me who were confused about this, but the "tweaked" version is certainly better to avoid such confusion. -- JINMEI, Tatuya From nobody Fri Dec 11 20:24:04 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A0DC1AD062 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:24:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DGgYd1CHxJOl for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:24:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x231.google.com (mail-qk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A25161ACF58 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:23:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by qkck189 with SMTP id k189so33032166qkc.0 for ; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:23:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=fyztPZsqhq+ZcsT+cVExE3/dIEwmwsF6Uw67Z2Hcpxs=; b=OY5RiuwzdGUzS/0ir8H4i5k8cKJ5/jie/dTV2eUajeWJ2E1/W6ogSgeJJxexsuC6D5 wl5kkpaVXMpUtDWlZHhl0/y1T9qmll6WWDKS2/G8GLc29A1ZgG/BUffGToMbDjOBL9M/ C7p6YE+4tIf+Qn9gOzuZoCdXGhVCOX5v/fX2ntJy0TvNUugfRfYCQU3imp8Qr4vw3FdQ sGupKLX/xEo5I8Fq7g4E9EWE91Crl00VELWMjwDTQAINS7NlCxssYEYvpnbATR30SfUG +8LwJrJjYKliILM3UMw/4cwcRgZKNltAvCm0BaD4Z19XbcaC1MCWi/XDJhvNf6N6PCOI 8wog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=fyztPZsqhq+ZcsT+cVExE3/dIEwmwsF6Uw67Z2Hcpxs=; b=bVCzbJ298ZHSbPEd/Qm/2JYWYqU2LRaPPkjK1uOppDgBjNggwzQMIeu/cvtvKGoJ64 751kONnuGKHyEqzeYHNaW9yb6Cq7G9X5WHfvB805heibGlv6tANFJZP0O882UajBf4yE vK/u/qgnN9XS+tJXato0KptYEpQFLIH+43xrNkhKSOeoJ1bqEw2y1Gjh9egUrPEy4eMv wyHEgbR7pk1zmu8T+CvlqfRG9dw4/ghOk3opGW7GZBpINa293DdcDTQHoUA5dDZFsJRe kieU6HNjDOzJCZWJ8SNhVhxNZ9pUrfeYl9GFZUx3YpVfYEa+XEMCxgq7r+L0rgFJMFXK Xk0g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkRtYuZDTdYpFfp84mKvBo+9IUr/yQ9Yg5hsC1bf7KINIsZ/E32Cn99c2KFfl8jjLQ8mMA76amKopZBrBBiIi3pOh2Qqc4aqOPj7HESADUZFU5Ju8U= X-Received: by 10.13.238.194 with SMTP id x185mr11460787ywe.35.1449894238648; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:23:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Fri, 11 Dec 2015 20:23:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 13:23:38 +0900 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0310940efda10526abcfdd Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 04:24:01 -0000 --94eb2c0310940efda10526abcfdd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:25 AM, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 wrote: > > This obviates the need to perform Neighbour Discovery and > > Duplicate Address Detection on its physical network interface > > for anything other than the link-local address, reducing network > traffic. > > Ah, okay, I realized I misunderstood the intent of the original text. > I'm not sure if it was only me who were confused about this, but the > "tweaked" version is certainly better to avoid such confusion. > I think you didn't misunderstand. I didn't realize that the text had that corner case. :-) Fixed in my local tree. --94eb2c0310940efda10526abcfdd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On S= at, Dec 12, 2015 at 11:25 AM, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei= @wide.ad.jp> wrote:
>= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 This obviates the need to perform Neighbour Discovery and
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Duplicate Address Detection on its physical network inter= face
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 for anything other than the link-local address, reducing = network traffic.

Ah, okay, I realized I misunderstood the intent of the original text= .
I'm not sure if it was only me who were confused about this, but the "tweaked" version is certainly better to avoid such confusion.

I think you didn't misunderstand. I d= idn't realize that the text had that corner case. :-) Fixed in my local= tree.
--94eb2c0310940efda10526abcfdd-- From nobody Sat Dec 12 06:37:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CBBA1A86E4 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 06:37:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BGJnomS9F0ov for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 06:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nitro.isi.edu (nitro.isi.edu [128.9.208.207]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94B471A1BF1 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 06:37:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.44] (50.29.190.96.res-cmts.flt3.ptd.net [50.29.190.96]) (authenticated bits=0) by nitro.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tBCEahTY012765 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sat, 12 Dec 2015 06:36:45 -0800 (PST) To: "Fred Baker (fred)" , "Templin, Fred L" References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8859D@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Joe Touch X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <566C30FA.9020100@isi.edu> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 06:36:42 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MailScanner-ID: tBCEahTY012765 X-ISI-4-69-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:37:25 -0000 On 12/11/2015 9:49 AM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: ... > The "Strong" and "Weak" host models are defined in section 3.3.4.2 > "Multihoming Requirements", and not in the part which is normative, but > the "discussion" presented to assist in understanding. The > requirements stated have to do with the choice of a source address, and > consist of: ... > (2) An application MUST be able to explicitly specify the > source address for initiating a connection or a > request. > > (3) In the absence of such a specification, the networking > software MUST choose a source address. Rules for this > choice are described below. ... > Personally, I will note that the socket library doesn't provide for the > application to select the source address it will use. In the most common libraries, "bind" does exactly this. Most people set the host address as "0", which - in the implementation, typically indicates "let the networking software choose" ((3) above), but setting it to one of the host's IP addresses accomplishes exactly (2) above. > There are ways > around that, but generally speaking, the source address is chosen by the > underlying communication layers. This is true only because this is the choice most applications make, not because of a lack of API. --- Getting back to the ES model: > There are two key requirement issues related to multihoming: > > (A) A host MAY silently discard an incoming datagram whose > destination address does not correspond to the physical > interface through which it is received. > > (B) A host MAY restrict itself to sending (non-source- > routed) IP datagrams only through the physical > interface that corresponds to the IP source address of > the datagrams ... > The Strong and Weak models, there called "ES" or End System models, have > to do with the interpretation of "MAY" in requirements A and B. In the > Strong ES Model, MAY becomes MUST, and in the Weak ES Model, and MAY > becomes MUST NOT. In the words of the RFC, A Strong ES emphasizes the > distinction between a host and a router, and a Weak ES de-emphasizes > that distinction. Internet hosts and routers both support BOTH the strong and weak model - strong at the link layer and weak at the network layer. Forwarding *requires* that the link layer be strong, but makes no requirement on the network layer being strong vs. weak. However, some routing protocols seem to assume more of a weak ES model, but others assume a strong one (esp. those that assume bidirectionality of connectivity announcements). ... > So, speaking as an individual contributor, I think the direction to go > is simplicity. In both of the cases, what the draft targets is "when > allocating addresses using DHCP/DHCPv6, please don't limit me to a > single /128". The statement applies in both cases equally well. > Introducing the Strong vs Weak ES Model discussion adds text to the > draft, but I'm not sure it adds understanding to a BCP. Hence, I > personally would leave the model discussion to another draft, and focus > on the stated objective of the proposed Best Current Practice. +1 Joe From nobody Sat Dec 12 13:25:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15B791A9056 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 13:25:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yxkChwPZrMsE for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 13:25:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A2B061A9053 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 13:25:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.44] (50.29.190.96.res-cmts.flt3.ptd.net [50.29.190.96]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tBCLOh5k002672 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sat, 12 Dec 2015 13:24:46 -0800 (PST) To: "Templin, Fred L" , Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <566C909A.9010608@isi.edu> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 13:24:42 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 21:25:08 -0000 On 12/11/2015 10:55 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote: > Hi Philip, > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com [mailto:pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com] On Behalf Of Philip Homburg >> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 5:50 AM >> To: v6ops@ietf.org >> Cc: Templin, Fred L; Fred Baker (fred) >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability >> >>> 2) that strong vs weak end system alternatives should be discussed. >>> The >> >> It seems to me that the only sensible model for PD is that any node >> receiving a prefix is a router. > > I think we agreed before that the node must present the outward appearance > of a router, yes. But, internally, applications are presented with the appearance > of an ordinary host. FWIW, that's also true inside an ordinary router too. They too have applications that need to treat the node as a host. A router is a superset of a host. There should never be anything a host can do that a router cannot. (that is often overlooked in RFCs). Joe From nobody Sat Dec 12 14:36:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6452C1A910F for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:36:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o6PP4MSHovOk for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x22c.google.com (mail-pf0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 063661A910E for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:36:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by pfbu66 with SMTP id u66so40841993pfb.3 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:36:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=9IyRP14a1Uvv9toAcHoiZMEvuwp7OFS4X82rOoFxo2s=; b=nEP4qVH9G0iBcxPk/t/eE0cb0rj4vuLNuqUlrbzFNqAFTTLs3PA2zjDlL4XfDlOpHh +IypY5taRaH14QLuQqPT7MdhdkKWcEwgwBeyBpN5yQybbuKISQooFrnPDmp/Ttj+d5xp 5X5vzHUd2GSGRQ9LA+aRcNEX5re2XSnQDaSGvaXGF8zHJnb736M3wuRRxSOd63zPOumH xoxGgEMJescsoMk42/hSNLftNsDqtX03lOqSBViL/XhBeSEkcZ2LeLjL2A6+7mHk+Ylg /Uvt9pFBNxW+rBmbRyoTBEeQtECPQRqlWu+IqC4iPqD8C23ReAi8R4evS+i4bvFt8SIY Zeiw== X-Received: by 10.98.66.216 with SMTP id h85mr5708415pfd.118.1449959801677; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:36:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:7429:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:7429:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 82sm33163880pfn.76.2015.12.12.14.36.38 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:36:40 -0800 (PST) To: Joe Touch , "Templin, Fred L" , Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <566C909A.9010608@isi.edu> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <566CA175.6050404@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 11:36:37 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <566C909A.9010608@isi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 22:36:43 -0000 On 13/12/2015 10:24, Joe Touch wrote: > > > On 12/11/2015 10:55 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote: >> Hi Philip, >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com [mailto:pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com] On Behalf Of Philip Homburg >>> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 5:50 AM >>> To: v6ops@ietf.org >>> Cc: Templin, Fred L; Fred Baker (fred) >>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability >>> >>>> 2) that strong vs weak end system alternatives should be discussed. >>>> The >>> >>> It seems to me that the only sensible model for PD is that any node >>> receiving a prefix is a router. >> >> I think we agreed before that the node must present the outward appearance >> of a router, yes. But, internally, applications are presented with the appearance >> of an ordinary host. > > FWIW, that's also true inside an ordinary router too. They too have > applications that need to treat the node as a host. > > A router is a superset of a host. There should never be anything a host > can do that a router cannot. (that is often overlooked in RFCs). RFC 2460 and draft-6man-rfc2460bis are explicit about this: "2. Terminology node - a device that implements IPv6. router - a node that forwards IPv6 packets not explicitly addressed to itself. [See Note below]. host - any node that is not a router. [See Note below]. ... Note: it is possible, though unusual, for a device with multiple interfaces to be configured to forward non-self-destined packets arriving from some set (fewer than all) of its interfaces, and to discard non-self-destined packets arriving from its other interfaces. Such a device must obey the protocol requirements for routers when receiving packets from, and interacting with neighbors over, the former (forwarding) interfaces. It must obey the protocol requirements for hosts when receiving packets from, and interacting with neighbors over, the latter (non-forwarding) interfaces." Brian From nobody Sat Dec 12 14:58:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D1C51A9094 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:58:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oAs_uNUmm8DF for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from vapor.isi.edu (vapor.isi.edu [128.9.64.64]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E64B1A9095 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:58:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.44] (50.29.190.96.res-cmts.flt3.ptd.net [50.29.190.96]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id tBCMvr2H024329 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:58:04 -0800 (PST) To: Brian E Carpenter , "Templin, Fred L" , Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <566C909A.9010608@isi.edu> <566CA175.6050404@gmail.com> From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <566CA670.4020301@isi.edu> Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 14:57:52 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <566CA175.6050404@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 22:58:14 -0000 On 12/12/2015 2:36 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 13/12/2015 10:24, Joe Touch wrote: >> >> >> On 12/11/2015 10:55 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote: >>> Hi Philip, >>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com [mailto:pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com] On Behalf Of Philip Homburg >>>> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 5:50 AM >>>> To: v6ops@ietf.org >>>> Cc: Templin, Fred L; Fred Baker (fred) >>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability >>>> >>>>> 2) that strong vs weak end system alternatives should be discussed. >>>>> The >>>> >>>> It seems to me that the only sensible model for PD is that any node >>>> receiving a prefix is a router. >>> >>> I think we agreed before that the node must present the outward appearance >>> of a router, yes. But, internally, applications are presented with the appearance >>> of an ordinary host. >> >> FWIW, that's also true inside an ordinary router too. They too have >> applications that need to treat the node as a host. >> >> A router is a superset of a host. There should never be anything a host >> can do that a router cannot. (that is often overlooked in RFCs). > > RFC 2460 and draft-6man-rfc2460bis are explicit about this: > > "2. Terminology > > node - a device that implements IPv6. > > router - a node that forwards IPv6 packets not explicitly > addressed to itself. [See Note below]. > > host - any node that is not a router. [See Note below]. And the need for the Note explains why the definition should have been, IMO: host: a source or sink of packets to/from its IP addresses router: a host that ALSO forwards packets that are not addressed to itself That would have alleviated the need for the note and helped us avoid a lot of problems that have happened since, IMO. Joe From nobody Sat Dec 12 15:53:40 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2109C1AC438 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:53:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wDFkzHUzdRXC for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:53:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x22e.google.com (mail-pf0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CBAE1AC430 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:53:36 -0800 (PST) Received: by pfbo64 with SMTP id o64so7049031pfb.1 for ; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:53:35 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=y2AbxH79cPKjvMLdtcfR1l3jucI7M90u2iLtndA4WTI=; b=dwwTsm5laCyqStpEs6CA4GRlzhLDrdgFweag8pCODC2dvm8SXYHM5kbe467dukZp9A +Tp4u6fvrtvkS5FLCU+MVMrjz83DWETuYg6UXnQsX3daRMvMspWjHUZO8/hO1+xdXRG+ M0tB4a8LVXLMY7Wz6rgbjXzPhbVfBtCLympq+AtgDc2ZlR2Mqp7Rc+gekjMXtBSIIz1X r5efbUcGqrlEM6+cottXYq250s/kybXDsWJzV7S4W21gRgWsKBZX6+frh9V+SO5WNpSN /DqX74rqxTjBEv7ulJQDUyAAFc0Jryjp6GmVt7kxC4NzfsD+nTREk4vomHP6xz45Yng5 bjgQ== X-Received: by 10.98.65.200 with SMTP id g69mr25807667pfd.33.1449964415694; Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:53:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:7429:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:7429:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a5sm7585661pfj.46.2015.12.12.15.53.31 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 12 Dec 2015 15:53:34 -0800 (PST) To: Joe Touch , "Fred Baker (fred)" , "Templin, Fred L" References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8859D@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <566C30FA.9020100@isi.edu> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <566CB37A.9020702@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 13 Dec 2015 12:53:30 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <566C30FA.9020100@isi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 12 Dec 2015 23:53:38 -0000 On 13/12/2015 03:36, Joe Touch wrote: > > > On 12/11/2015 9:49 AM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > ... >> The "Strong" and "Weak" host models are defined in section 3.3.4.2 >> "Multihoming Requirements", and not in the part which is normative, but >> the "discussion" presented to assist in understanding. The >> requirements stated have to do with the choice of a source address, and >> consist of: > ... >> (2) An application MUST be able to explicitly specify the >> source address for initiating a connection or a >> request. >> >> (3) In the absence of such a specification, the networking >> software MUST choose a source address. Rules for this >> choice are described below. > ... >> Personally, I will note that the socket library doesn't provide for the >> application to select the source address it will use. > > In the most common libraries, "bind" does exactly this. Most people set > the host address as "0", which - in the implementation, typically > indicates "let the networking software choose" ((3) above), but setting > it to one of the host's IP addresses accomplishes exactly (2) above. sockaddr_in6 also allows you to set the flow label and the interface (Zone) ID. The latter is essential if binding to a link-local address. Brian > >> There are ways >> around that, but generally speaking, the source address is chosen by the >> underlying communication layers. > > This is true only because this is the choice most applications make, not > because of a lack of API. > > --- > > Getting back to the ES model: > >> There are two key requirement issues related to multihoming: >> >> (A) A host MAY silently discard an incoming datagram whose >> destination address does not correspond to the physical >> interface through which it is received. >> >> (B) A host MAY restrict itself to sending (non-source- >> routed) IP datagrams only through the physical >> interface that corresponds to the IP source address of >> the datagrams > ... >> The Strong and Weak models, there called "ES" or End System models, have >> to do with the interpretation of "MAY" in requirements A and B. In the >> Strong ES Model, MAY becomes MUST, and in the Weak ES Model, and MAY >> becomes MUST NOT. In the words of the RFC, A Strong ES emphasizes the >> distinction between a host and a router, and a Weak ES de-emphasizes >> that distinction. > > Internet hosts and routers both support BOTH the strong and weak model - > strong at the link layer and weak at the network layer. > > Forwarding *requires* that the link layer be strong, but makes no > requirement on the network layer being strong vs. weak. However, some > routing protocols seem to assume more of a weak ES model, but others > assume a strong one (esp. those that assume bidirectionality of > connectivity announcements). > > ... >> So, speaking as an individual contributor, I think the direction to go >> is simplicity. In both of the cases, what the draft targets is "when >> allocating addresses using DHCP/DHCPv6, please don't limit me to a >> single /128". The statement applies in both cases equally well. >> Introducing the Strong vs Weak ES Model discussion adds text to the >> draft, but I'm not sure it adds understanding to a BCP. Hence, I >> personally would leave the model discussion to another draft, and focus >> on the stated objective of the proposed Best Current Practice. > > +1 > > Joe > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Mon Dec 14 16:45:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2A111A8AA0 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 16:45:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.088 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.088 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gev_dki-SAQk for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 16:45:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x233.google.com (mail-qk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D41451A8F4E for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 16:45:16 -0800 (PST) Received: by qkck189 with SMTP id k189so128899566qkc.0 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 16:45:16 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=F5mSbeO8wQYYia1oo6U5gYsCT4fnTvJtjl82roD3PZI=; b=TkHExCLxQv1Vy9hxxhFflijdfqItgC1g6TQMOU6399AiD5WI/7N1SpzuBxARi5sWvz RLnVf6e8Id4Ad09z5gxbK6iKo7mwCLUlMQgqjYtcHTT4qe4E10CyRseTDrXzHkctFQ9O V1wI296anN3udYAJpm4BIAop4yh3TOTeXeRPxU8JGjXKsmS6jHrbkK8IsoSLAEDZ/6lL 2j+AajMELBlWqrTe1uEgkSOMKcJyxpffh6gyoWrNokpEs+IEzH39tPllmt5Xyjx5XkF1 gwf/qDNyiFHdh/XD/VIBj3tEKwk4QYoSaR6eBLCX7evOH8Mxq44N85GfUvkH92Lj3cMk mRnw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=F5mSbeO8wQYYia1oo6U5gYsCT4fnTvJtjl82roD3PZI=; b=P+mHVy/d9YhzvxRZCYyR6wN0CFTCZhuT91kkD41OTL0mKmK61npuM5JRkVlIOYImYe C7EiTKqXit4WbSXqTUdXBPyAt5MGVG2rVitQbd5enpy9qAGwLGNbL2GQoYzuz7+Jggpe 5AOOL4yC8XKWZQxiGfV9sLdwvIKWEK70Ab1NENHu4US4ba7mZQyNoQKuUa16f/MqsJnW EiM2apSm/I8ENrU0ezaZm39pIG5YnC33Psyum1VK2b3wusLQyYcJxE5Cxi98Q1c1LOXd jXIMwmn9pzyK56lHKgM1GFiD/igFroj5h81ggDqILgf7qS03IfH+Kt7wnNifJLVENX+K 7Aqg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkfwxt0eCzjZmFWKvJT6/d9xRyF0djo+/+eIuKa5XKOQEV756CVKVUsNgCxa+0K60Ow2+QayfcGRgn+5WfYawUso42Po4RKXBs9XDiHIqg/e8bCL6s= X-Received: by 10.129.41.200 with SMTP id p191mr21184714ywp.160.1450140315888; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 16:45:15 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 16:44:55 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:44:55 +0900 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114082f667a15b0526e51a2d Archived-At: Cc: "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , "v6ops@ietf.org" , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 00:45:47 -0000 --001a114082f667a15b0526e51a2d Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > How about making a slight tweak in the ordering and changing the text to > this: > > This obviates the need to perform Neighbour Discovery and > Duplicate Address Detection on its physical network interface > for anything other than the link-local address, reducing network > traffic. > Fred, would this text address your concerns on DAD? As I said, I think discussion on strong vs. weak host model is out of scope for this document. --001a114082f667a15b0526e51a2d Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On S= at, Dec 12, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com>= wrote:
How about making a slight= tweak in the ordering and changing the text to this:

<= div>
=C2=A0 =C2=A0This obviates the need to perform Ne= ighbour Discovery and
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Duplicate Address Detec= tion on its physical network interface
=C2=A0 =C2=A0for anything = other than the link-local address, reducing network traffic.

Fred, would this text address your con= cerns on DAD?

As I said, I think discussion on str= ong vs. weak host model is out of scope for this document.
--001a114082f667a15b0526e51a2d-- From nobody Mon Dec 14 17:34:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 762961AD094 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:34:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id At2p8FPuWqZ1 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs-w.tc.umn.edu (vs-w.tc.umn.edu [134.84.119.20]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A79C1AD080 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:34:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-io0-f176.google.com (mail-io0-f176.google.com [209.85.223.176]) by vs-w.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:34:26 -0600 (CST) X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] mail-io0-f176.google.com [209.85.223.176] #+LO+TS+TR X-Umn-Classification: local Received: by mail-io0-f176.google.com with SMTP id e126so3718615ioa.1 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:34:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=umn.edu; s=google; h=from:subject:reply-to:references:to:cc:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=eKQ4dNoHQPtRGt8P6gxj6BrCgkk0yCnbx5XBpA8k+7k=; b=qCC96Y6fQadt9aGeAHTEN5FQ4eyR0Zai+KCeMecdj6qv4myfI7bihYCiL6SlCu4sUx Kg9+BKHnu7JAPL6q5wwWQV9Y6NgpdY6v3wyghbaUy1p2l3x+vH7cLuuaokv6wGQvtgKu rMu8NF+iPyLn3+mN4vYuc0P3DI83oGLt/RcE8= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:reply-to:references:to:cc :organization:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=eKQ4dNoHQPtRGt8P6gxj6BrCgkk0yCnbx5XBpA8k+7k=; b=XsyIFn4f/OPt3ZRTBxmn+dlfFudTx8sTPgn/prIVjMpITONSQ17hM/nA1Nce2+Xs/Q OV7WgwuOZ7qWVEomtRkRulaTXlvJpg4GWLseLYejX2OTVOPg8Ej6iHJwYMFMDpGnDyaQ 9btY8RRcVv9u00kxYS1b8/XZtWE7MvUQD8AmIURX8RRbhrtSsha8ABhmkRuJBo22Aoa+ 5fGTiR0scAviWEhGc0pj1ojujobn4EnCj7dYzfVpYcUATykKNKalhwNTVwDwXZFog8sv M6JvMZ6FyAGA22A+InLpiaQm9zZm5laAmH/IFL5gcspeI7dtLF9RQSR8OdciiyCjOyO3 Njag== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQm0ZU0ksz57R1tcqHWJxsptFlFclWnzhG0Du7OalcOvH9fCnb8YgsYMkPPhVsB+bu0xlcEf2000MePOf/Q80MVpmnB8sJV7R50EhqoDI7oc+Asa6azRYgHQ+HzF+VsFfoRjovg4I0rP5m9PkZIDP3yd/OV99g== X-Received: by 10.107.135.217 with SMTP id r86mr4750583ioi.164.1450143265882; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:34:25 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.107.135.217 with SMTP id r86mr4750567ioi.164.1450143265752; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:34:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from x-10-104-138-252.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu ([2607:ea00:107:2001:59cb:2f96:b4b7:446]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 124sm247988ioz.10.2015.12.14.17.34.23 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 14 Dec 2015 17:34:23 -0800 (PST) From: David Farmer References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> To: "Fred Baker (fred)" , "Templin, Fred L" Organization: University of Minnesota Message-ID: <566F6E1D.7020702@umn.edu> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:34:21 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: David Farmer List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 01:34:29 -0000 I'm beginning to wonder if document shouldn't explicitly say the details of assigning a /64 prefix to every host, such as via DHCPv6 PD, are beyond the scope of this document and the subject of work in progress and possible future work, with an informational reference to draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host and any other similar work. On 12/11/15 01:21 , Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > Fred, to be honest, this is getting pretty marginal with respect to the > scope of the draft. Lorenzo has stated that he considers it out of > scope, and at first blush I would agree – the scope is about the number > of addresses that get assigned when at least one gets assigned (whether > to an interface or a system), not an update to RFC 4862 on the use of DAD. > > If you think the scope needs to include DAD and the strong and weak host > models, I think you need to support the argument. > > From: v6ops > on > behalf of Lorenzo Colitti > > Date: Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:46 AM > To: "Templin, Fred L" > > Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org " >, "internet-drafts@ietf.org > " >, "i-d-announce@ietf.org > " > > Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt > > On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Templin, Fred L > > wrote: > > But, addresses > could also be assigned to the interface over which the prefix is > received as long as the prefix itself is not added to the prefix > list for that interface > > > No, that's a violation of section 1 of RFC 4862, which says: > > To ensure that all configured addresses are likely to be unique on a > given link, nodes run a "duplicate address detection" algorithm on > addresses before assigning them to an interface. The Duplicate > Address Detection algorithm is performed on all addresses, > independently of whether they are obtained via stateless > autoconfiguration or DHCPv6. > > The text in the address availability draft is careful not to violate the > text above; it does so by saying that DAD can be avoided if the address > is not assigned to the physical interface. > > I wrote this draft as a backup in case the subject would not be > fully covered > in your document, but it appears that you are now willing to provide > coverage. > > > I think it's fine to mention in passing (as we now do), but I think a > more detailed description is out of scope. This document is about > recommendations on assigning multiple addresses to to hosts, not how the > hosts configure the addresses that they get. > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > -- ================================================ David Farmer Email: farmer@umn.edu Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 1-612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 1-612-812-9952 ================================================ From nobody Mon Dec 14 19:02:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B880F1B29E9 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:02:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IF38A6oI_N0M for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x22b.google.com (mail-qk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6C5A21B29E7 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:02:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by qkdp187 with SMTP id p187so168352259qkd.1 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:02:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=YQt9uyqYjSbpmtliNI3IazMrwMi4dtIU4EIQcI04H4k=; b=SbNb2HPV3B10zdbOQsDcnbe3lcdpU31I+BAqDJ6VBHCXTMWjvWLMI+a0w1qyk8ZRCg z23tpqIUIB69wVIq/dwcmDta3Y0cG7LyxTQSkhgG84Uzkf+3D3K10R/DLSkRfJa6YGal IkEZiqrL5gxPwxNO0esMmaoIm3t/6kkFoTu7EZgDRidEah2jw+F4rphB4lA1LW9I7d4t t1/cAr5I6ZrbZw2zxCpjDF7tLos3A6fsfiI26mzH98BfX35+jMPbLLx+y5bbSERI9ysO juoicDyYuxfrGeFD8COukIIh64GH02b4LR3Db88u5unRNZn81BCLX/r147CSE/JXB7Fi L0Qg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=YQt9uyqYjSbpmtliNI3IazMrwMi4dtIU4EIQcI04H4k=; b=V4om1+cxS4et/iDU9CV50p3Mh9dUmAMLgvx4hdfskYco72A3O8IGIJTa1NqzQVx/h+ MsXrjJKG+5zoJjId7o7DvS2ms/hZSwdttndeheCQyglPm0fYCJIzffVa6IwJraSxTXhX xoiZ2FDwfmFnROwpv5NoekjaszjPsnEGa+6UcHQZyx+StcWq+YXjjk+RusqDMoc/+QMn en16VWyBORqCiSJMDRCNVjqDCnd5z+O0ets5iRazSXXHL3fOy2q03ogXLkb8tlu3Zt/Y 4bpK/+Zea8VtxeSXHdgZ+lIhgekZfr7MrXfao6GNQ/GrZetEbG4vBQMKOR5fFmtMBnqf H7iQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlxzrr8+ncgpvddSAv4/i7gBEwHfgVIyzKezgh1pcNITMlf9DseINHg13OD0/Jd2OLoAJbP9jULGCWN1y107DCBCsXPjlcetZ7UZSiEl2fKTNymyFc= X-Received: by 10.129.157.84 with SMTP id u81mr21878398ywg.123.1450148541346; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:02:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:02:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <566F6E1D.7020702@umn.edu> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <566F6E1D.7020702@umn.edu> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 12:02:01 +0900 Message-ID: To: David Farmer Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0b7ab2ae291d0526e7043c Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 03:02:25 -0000 --94eb2c0b7ab2ae291d0526e7043c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I don't think we should declare that out of scope. I think it has always been clear what the scope of this draft was: recommendations around how much address space networks should provide to hosts, and the mechanisms by which they should provide it. The "how" is not just about SLAAC and DHCPv6 NA, DHCPv6 PD: for example, the one point the draft makes on "how" is that that address space should be provided up front rather than on demand, etc. All that material has essentially been in the draft since the beginning, I think we have mostly been in agreement on it all the way back to -00. On the other hand, I think it's also pretty clear that documenting host behaviour is out of scope; there are no host requirements in the document now, and attempting to add them would require a whole lot more text, and a whole lot more time. That should be done in other documents, if necessary. I'd argue it's also fairly clear that things like /64-per-host are also out of scope. Again, this draft focuses on is how much space the network provides, and what mechanisms it uses to do so. From that perspective, there's no difference at all between /64-per-host and a shared /64 with only one host on it at any given time. The mechanisms are exactly the same. So I think say we should should advance the document it as is, modulo the DAD tweak I suggested. On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 10:34 AM, David Farmer wrote: > I'm beginning to wonder if document shouldn't explicitly say the details > of assigning a /64 prefix to every host, such as via DHCPv6 PD, are beyon= d > the scope of this document and the subject of work in progress and possib= le > future work, with an informational reference to > draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host and any other similar work. > > On 12/11/15 01:21 , Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > >> Fred, to be honest, this is getting pretty marginal with respect to the >> scope of the draft. Lorenzo has stated that he considers it out of >> scope, and at first blush I would agree =E2=80=93 the scope is about the= number >> of addresses that get assigned when at least one gets assigned (whether >> to an interface or a system), not an update to RFC 4862 on the use of DA= D. >> >> If you think the scope needs to include DAD and the strong and weak host >> models, I think you need to support the argument. >> >> From: v6ops > on >> behalf of Lorenzo Colitti > >> >> Date: Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:46 AM >> To: "Templin, Fred L" > > >> Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org " > >, "internet-drafts@ietf.org >> " > >, "i-d-announce@ietf.org >> " > > >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: >> draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt >> >> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Templin, Fred L >> > wrote: >> >> But, addresses >> could also be assigned to the interface over which the prefix is >> received as long as the prefix itself is not added to the prefix >> list for that interface >> >> >> No, that's a violation of section 1 of RFC 4862, which says: >> >> To ensure that all configured addresses are likely to be unique on a >> given link, nodes run a "duplicate address detection" algorithm on >> addresses before assigning them to an interface. The Duplicate >> Address Detection algorithm is performed on all addresses, >> independently of whether they are obtained via stateless >> autoconfiguration or DHCPv6. >> >> The text in the address availability draft is careful not to violate the >> text above; it does so by saying that DAD can be avoided if the address >> is not assigned to the physical interface. >> >> I wrote this draft as a backup in case the subject would not be >> fully covered >> in your document, but it appears that you are now willing to provide >> coverage. >> >> >> I think it's fine to mention in passing (as we now do), but I think a >> more detailed description is out of scope. This document is about >> recommendations on assigning multiple addresses to to hosts, not how the >> hosts configure the addresses that they get. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> >> > > -- > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > David Farmer Email: farmer@umn.edu > Office of Information Technology > University of Minnesota > 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 1-612-626-0815 > Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 1-612-812-9952 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --94eb2c0b7ab2ae291d0526e7043c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I don't think we should declare that out of scope.
I think it has always been clear what the scope of this dra= ft was: recommendations around how much address space networks should provi= de to hosts, and the mechanisms by which they should provide it. The "= how" is not just about SLAAC and DHCPv6 NA, DHCPv6 PD: for example, th= e one point the draft makes on "how" is that that address space s= hould be provided up front rather than on demand, etc.=C2=A0All that materi= al has essentially been in the draft since the beginning, I think we have m= ostly been in agreement on it all the way back to -00.

<= div>On the other hand, I think it's also pretty clear that documenting = host behaviour is out of scope; there are no host requirements in the docum= ent now, and attempting to add them would require a whole lot more text, an= d a whole lot more time. That should be done in other documents, if necessa= ry.

I'd argue it's also fairly clear that = things like /64-per-host are also out of scope. Again, this draft focuses o= n is how much space the network provides, and what mechanisms it uses to do= so. From that perspective, there's no difference at all between /64-pe= r-host and a shared /64 with only one host on it at any given time. The mec= hanisms are exactly the same.

So I think say we sh= ould should advance the document it as is, modulo the DAD tweak I suggested= .

On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 10:34 AM, David Farmer &l= t;farmer@umn.edu>= ; wrote:
I'm beginning to wond= er if document shouldn't explicitly say the details of assigning a /64 = prefix to every host, such as via DHCPv6 PD, are beyond the scope of this d= ocument and the subject of work in progress and possible future work, with = an informational reference to draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host = and any other similar work.

On 12/11/15 01:21 , Fred Baker (fred) wrote:
Fred, to be honest, this is getting pretty marginal with respect to the
scope of the draft. Lorenzo has stated that he considers it out of
scope, and at first blush I would agree =E2=80=93 the scope is about the nu= mber
of addresses that get assigned when at least one gets assigned (whether
to an interface or a system), not an update to RFC 4862 on the use of DAD.<= br>
If you think the scope needs to include DAD and the strong and weak host models, I think you need to support the argument.

 From: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org>> on
behalf of Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com <mailto:lorenzo@google.com>><= br> Date: Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:46 AM
To: "Templin, Fred L" <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com
 <mailto:F= red.L.Templin@boeing.com>>
Cc: "v6ops@ietf.or= g <mailto:v6ops@= ietf.org>" <v6ops@ietf.org
<mailto:v6ops@ietf.o= rg>>, "internet-drafts@ietf.org
<mailto:in= ternet-drafts@ietf.org>" <internet-drafts@ietf.org
<mailto:in= ternet-drafts@ietf.org>>, "i-d-announce@ietf.org
<mailto:i-d-a= nnounce@ietf.org>" <i-d-announce@ietf.org
<mailto:i-d-a= nnounce@ietf.org>>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action:
draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Templin, Fred L
 <Fred.L.T= emplin@boeing.com <mailto:Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com>> wrote:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 But, addresses
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 could also be assigned to the interface over which the prefix= is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 received as long as the prefix itself is not added to the pre= fix
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 list for that interface


No, that's a violation of section 1 of RFC 4862, which says:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 To ensure that all configured addresses are likely to be uniq= ue on a
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 given link, nodes run a "duplicate address detection&quo= t; algorithm on
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 addresses before assigning them to an interface.=C2=A0 The Du= plicate
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Address Detection algorithm is performed on all addresses, =C2=A0 =C2=A0 independently of whether they are obtained via stateless
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 autoconfiguration or DHCPv6.

The text in the address availability draft is careful not to violate the text above; it does so by saying that DAD can be avoided if the address
is not assigned to the physical interface.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0 I wrote this draft as a backup in case the subject would not = be
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 fully covered
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 in your document, but it appears that you are now willing to = provide
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 coverage.


I think it's fine to mention in passing (as we now do), but I think a more detailed description is out of scope. This document is about
recommendations on assigning multiple addresses to to hosts, not how the hosts configure the addresses that they get.


 _______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops



--
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
David Farmer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Email: <= a href=3D"mailto:farmer@umn.edu" target=3D"_blank">farmer@umn.edu
Office of Information Technology
University of Minnesota
2218 University Ave SE=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Phone: 1-612-626-0815
Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029=C2=A0 Cell: 1-612-812-9952
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D


_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

--94eb2c0b7ab2ae291d0526e7043c-- From nobody Mon Dec 14 19:58:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EE761B2A5E for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:58:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -114.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-114.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id arEJzrjprEf6 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:58:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-1.cisco.com (alln-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.142.88]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0457D1B2A59 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 19:58:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5512; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1450151930; x=1451361530; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=emjOHQTmb6oksUAkzyclWdgeWI1wCLtIGy886AA4RWI=; b=UNAginr3O1UUP2MNSRxegzU9HPd1nNroH4yT3CbMZx5Xg2FU08BfOuq5 RA/GWNRJLtYKCwdDlRqTvTN6fmFZRZjt7tCsQEirg4ZbkkRCnjD71i9Og 9YVMsQP2b1t8l33VI7LqKVzM9DBkKMDxMt/F1M7vUs9pcoG0VqKcQDJAR U=; X-Files: signature.asc : 833 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0D9AgCYj29W/4YNJK1bAw6DLFJuBr04D?= =?us-ascii?q?oFjFwqFbAKBMjgUAQEBAQEBAYEKhDQBAQEDAQEBAWsLBQkCAgEIEQMBAgEnBxs?= =?us-ascii?q?MCxQJCAIEDgUOiBkIDb1MAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBDwUEBIhhgm6EI?= =?us-ascii?q?QkRAT8BFw+DBIEaBZZ5AYJsgWKIeYFbklmEboNzAR8BQ4NGPnIBgz06gQgBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,430,1444694400"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="218315791" Received: from alln-core-12.cisco.com ([173.36.13.134]) by alln-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 15 Dec 2015 03:58:48 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-012.cisco.com (xch-aln-012.cisco.com [173.36.7.22]) by alln-core-12.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tBF3wms3003140 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Dec 2015 03:58:48 GMT Received: from xch-aln-013.cisco.com (173.36.7.23) by XCH-ALN-012.cisco.com (173.36.7.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 21:58:48 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-013.cisco.com ([173.36.7.23]) by XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com ([173.36.7.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 21:58:48 -0600 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: David Farmer Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRM+SSrD+a7h3APEy9mK9boYypOg== Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 03:58:48 +0000 Message-ID: <2C87812A-3346-4F42-ABF1-996C163653E5@cisco.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <566F6E1D.7020702@umn.edu> In-Reply-To: <566F6E1D.7020702@umn.edu> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.33.65] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F2C99A61-BC28-47AE-8A55-3CD2204A9197"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 03:58:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F2C99A61-BC28-47AE-8A55-3CD2204A9197 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > On Dec 14, 2015, at 5:34 PM, David Farmer wrote: >=20 > I'm beginning to wonder if document shouldn't explicitly say the = details of assigning a /64 prefix to every host, such as via DHCPv6 PD, = are beyond the scope of this document and the subject of work in = progress and possible future work, with an informational reference to = draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host and any other similar work. I think there may be value. There is enough to understand about the use = of DHCP-PD that hasn't been discussed or documented that trying to make = detailed remarks on it in this draft seems premature. > On 12/11/15 01:21 , Fred Baker (fred) wrote: >> Fred, to be honest, this is getting pretty marginal with respect to = the >> scope of the draft. Lorenzo has stated that he considers it out of >> scope, and at first blush I would agree =96 the scope is about the = number >> of addresses that get assigned when at least one gets assigned = (whether >> to an interface or a system), not an update to RFC 4862 on the use of = DAD. >>=20 >> If you think the scope needs to include DAD and the strong and weak = host >> models, I think you need to support the argument. >>=20 >> From: v6ops > = on >> behalf of Lorenzo Colitti > >> Date: Thursday, December 10, 2015 at 8:46 AM >> To: "Templin, Fred L" > > >> Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org " > >, "internet-drafts@ietf.org >> " > >, "i-d-announce@ietf.org >> " > > >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: >> draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt >>=20 >> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 1:36 AM, Templin, Fred L >> > wrote: >>=20 >> But, addresses >> could also be assigned to the interface over which the prefix is >> received as long as the prefix itself is not added to the prefix >> list for that interface >>=20 >>=20 >> No, that's a violation of section 1 of RFC 4862, which says: >>=20 >> To ensure that all configured addresses are likely to be unique on = a >> given link, nodes run a "duplicate address detection" algorithm on >> addresses before assigning them to an interface. The Duplicate >> Address Detection algorithm is performed on all addresses, >> independently of whether they are obtained via stateless >> autoconfiguration or DHCPv6. >>=20 >> The text in the address availability draft is careful not to violate = the >> text above; it does so by saying that DAD can be avoided if the = address >> is not assigned to the physical interface. >>=20 >> I wrote this draft as a backup in case the subject would not be >> fully covered >> in your document, but it appears that you are now willing to = provide >> coverage. >>=20 >>=20 >> I think it's fine to mention in passing (as we now do), but I think a >> more detailed description is out of scope. This document is about >> recommendations on assigning multiple addresses to to hosts, not how = the >> hosts configure the addresses that they get. >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > David Farmer Email: farmer@umn.edu > Office of Information Technology > University of Minnesota > 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 1-612-626-0815 > Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 1-612-812-9952 > =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D --Apple-Mail=_F2C99A61-BC28-47AE-8A55-3CD2204A9197 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIVAwUBVm+P90ayAOS/EQ8MAQLr6A//R1IOcm3kvIsxoiGGUNWqPr2heDIv/szW MZ8oA24ppJNj/P3nW4gkRH+drUUguLNAGB4JbMnrslDTBVzFkpaSOIc11QdNWDZ2 6kPwHs+zn52eZUHbkWEIhqglaryRj82XT9KX68s8WPqkTVJEoTWsuFz2kdTDM9r0 cmABxpyFltkMvSPvVXcSgDWoKFVq9L5BkxwI6M0q1SbAq5vg1/Cd0KweHw0AZa0z LMKsP7rgF/wIB6lPwPHiYf2RpjAdz0NNdRkuTcxfCm7EjMm9LJYdJVOP4ocFDFyq ZD6ECvNHlsTsF8POP9dMjutcKcfGNVC0cwp+JCFSLbvG+whJsV011WFIZGxT8rSr HnDawjs6fs00BmV06VQkrSULBKTR1YAII7/he7eb6kYImVzHlE2dqQtx1gnzPErt iykE4lAWA1Jew0kh6/9g2Rl+In/GraHKju/SUhDi1tUaNBEhfJB8lrWAs6AWz/oZ ApxEdoWGlK9wyGrIgTqBkj7RRKkTDV44AuIToNvuKN1+7m1BGaknxN6lNlSmBC43 26ard4UKoxxZ2/DY+RrMCDdLbK8/qzvu9OGPmqQkQxK9vje/LlIAQIjAxkWzrRlp nM8xesnz/FbG2QNjT/SHGdQzZ7M8OV4CykpUbV23ekJoisnOHREOL5/NB53Z0Mir k2NknsFCQQ0= =CtmX -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F2C99A61-BC28-47AE-8A55-3CD2204A9197-- From nobody Mon Dec 14 20:03:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E99981B2A64 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:03:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -114.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-114.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Rd1j1Cuklm4W for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:03:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 398E81B2A68 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:03:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=5892; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1450152192; x=1451361792; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; 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Tue, 15 Dec 2015 04:03:11 GMT Received: from xch-aln-013.cisco.com (173.36.7.23) by XCH-ALN-012.cisco.com (173.36.7.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:03:10 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-013.cisco.com ([173.36.7.23]) by XCH-ALN-013.cisco.com ([173.36.7.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:03:10 -0600 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRM+SSrD+a7h3APEy9mK9boYypOg== Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 04:03:10 +0000 Message-ID: <095CE768-12E3-401C-81D3-DA686EB0223D@cisco.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <566F6E1D.7020702@umn.edu> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.33.65] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_43B045B1-2890-4E18-ABAD-9FF557CFFADB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 04:03:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_43B045B1-2890-4E18-ABAD-9FF557CFFADB Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_98AFAD63-AFB0-4ADF-B55E-87712651878F" --Apple-Mail=_98AFAD63-AFB0-4ADF-B55E-87712651878F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Dec 14, 2015, at 7:02 PM, Lorenzo Colitti = wrote: >=20 > I don't think we should declare that out of scope. > I'd argue it's also fairly clear that things like /64-per-host are = also out of scope. > So I think say we should should advance the document it as is, modulo = the DAD tweak I suggested. >=20 > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 10:34 AM, David Farmer > wrote: > I'm beginning to wonder if document shouldn't explicitly say the = details of assigning a /64 prefix to every host, such as via DHCPv6 PD, = are beyond the scope of this document and the subject of work in = progress and possible future work, with an informational reference to = draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host and any other similar work. As I just said to David, I do think the mechanism is out of scope, and a = lot of the details of it implementation are therefore out of scope. Your = statement leaves me confused; "the details of assigning a /64 per host" = should not be out of scope, but "/64 per host" should be out of scope. Personally, I'll agree with the third statement I quoted above. Let's = tweak DAD, if you agree it's important, but leave mechanisms, prefixes, = and the sizes of prefixes to another draft. --Apple-Mail=_98AFAD63-AFB0-4ADF-B55E-87712651878F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
On Dec 14, 2015, at 7:02 PM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> = wrote:

I don't think we should declare = that out of scope.

I'd argue it's also fairly clear that things = like /64-per-host are also out of = scope. 

So I think say we should = should advance the document it as is, modulo the DAD tweak I = suggested.

On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 10:34 AM, = David Farmer <farmer@umn.edu> wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder if document shouldn't = explicitly say the details of assigning a /64 prefix to every host, such = as via DHCPv6 PD, are beyond the scope of this document and the subject = of work in progress and possible future work, with an informational = reference to draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host and any other = similar work.

As I just said to David, I do think the mechanism = is out of scope, and a lot of the details of it implementation are = therefore out of scope. Your statement leaves me confused; "the details = of assigning a /64 per host" should not be out of scope, but "/64 per = host" should be out of scope.

Personally, I'll agree with the third statement I = quoted above. Let's tweak DAD, if you agree it's important, but leave = mechanisms, prefixes, and the sizes of prefixes to another = draft.

= --Apple-Mail=_98AFAD63-AFB0-4ADF-B55E-87712651878F-- --Apple-Mail=_43B045B1-2890-4E18-ABAD-9FF557CFFADB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIVAwUBVm+Q/UayAOS/EQ8MAQK+ABAAmz/gQcx4SCOo8utitRbXPTvt+j0zdzR1 ug430FSvoFsWtD7GnAsANKdNEOQRFzKSyWOf3la2lpgUgcWMbWQJ+8IopVpyVTji o053rqTaBTkpK3GcqzeSB3FDqxt6gY9aPTbwZArZpEeLhjfjmVxH3LU1xMnuz0DJ E82C19+tNks6eN2ME2zHYgChw0elcU89PD4nM02KtzMgtEzhrseVnk2uneCW83yc 49a8Eef0oF8rqDx+FbeN4D+9yrIqvnemWFhOk3WUzn90LA2hp56cL3b1aLWoHxvx w0Cru7/n4mN9Xw9Ocz2hscjMAHzS21msWbSEfhI0isov8jhVl9JOKvNc+SW13igT BvB22Ad09+SNCJEgiOnrMlCeqJZuH0BE2fFXaVAAsCtG6VRV5GHX9aHfmbQFpaP4 a9IVE68eUFT72x3yUEGJViQpoKGtVgxmu8426RMX5Gnj3zGMMy3CwjAojBpJd2hB mItPwWLFQ1/w7E69GkILMSDYxxDmz1Ry4LAqskLueXVDCTnfpMcipvkm6+Z+wOFc h16pmSrcchmI5TeUgwAJA5q4A0jQI4pDysUoY2AkQ8LolFETMIjWWRcWjNCtuwGN OjhReoCimDteVBmoCMVa/aR3fZ+3awuwdD9pLfCp8GlmD2TPWq5XO1uLiTQeCM4T rzj6DK74HHQ= =RX12 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_43B045B1-2890-4E18-ABAD-9FF557CFFADB-- From nobody Mon Dec 14 20:09:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F49E1B2A6E; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:08:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jNumScPb10cJ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com [130.76.32.231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A64A1A87B8; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:08:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBF4904b008181; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:09:00 -0800 Received: from XCH-PHX-410.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-410.sw.nos.boeing.com [10.57.37.41]) by blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBF48u0N008154 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:08:56 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-410.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.10.137]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:08:51 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Lorenzo Colitti , =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: 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; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x22c.google.com (mail-qk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60C991B2A81 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by qkht125 with SMTP id t125so169974343qkh.3 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:25:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=CgAqV7VUdlX0FN8SM1U4NfANxMrx1hWFMwkX5aUUWdk=; b=nmOcld/h+hvoLuzvE2HmrifXdrgPXQKo+rctoIzqNmI81zlzmmD/JtD+gaRFVqpzRM 1J6DZ/sW3JDnXoyt2MW3rUWxUXUXfAPxoVuMRuEaiQZ1vdM3Oo2DNxatXpjtlcD39U9S 14hufEnhVXgeb78Q4HdY/vSkt+CjIvldfiPa/tK0FmLqNa7WTTYoJl4KK5tP5195/5m9 wRskoQs9sxD3q0IdENmHZzJTtDoaUXqVM83nzVk1oTXGypqmQOgEVbwZrn3Dh3mfUeyS 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2015 20:24:54 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <095CE768-12E3-401C-81D3-DA686EB0223D@cisco.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <566F6E1D.7020702@umn.edu> <095CE768-12E3-401C-81D3-DA686EB0223D@cisco.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:24:54 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Fred Baker (fred)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0b73161a1dd50526e82d0a Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 04:25:16 -0000 --94eb2c0b73161a1dd50526e82d0a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > > Personally, I'll agree with the third statement I quoted above. Let's > tweak DAD, if you agree it's important, but leave mechanisms, prefixes, and > the sizes of prefixes to another draft. > But wait... it seems to me that we've had pretty good consensus on the current text for most of its lifetime. The draft most definitely does include prefix sizes and discussions of mechanisms. For example, it says that if explicit assigment of addresses are necessary, the network should assign a /64 per host using DHCPv6 PD. So it mentions prefixes, sizes and mechanisms. That text has been there from the beginning, and went through WG last call. Are you saying we should now pull that text out? It doesn't seem that anyone currently disagrees with those statements per se. Yes, there are some doubts about DAD, but to my mind that's mostly a procedural issue: I think everybody here agrees that DAD is not useful in a scenario where a /64 is dedicated to the host, but RFC 4862 requires it, so we have to be careful about the wording. If we were to take out text about prefix sizes and mechanisms, then a substantial part of the recommendations (i.e., where we recommend a /64, and where we recommend DHCPv6 PD) would be struck. That seems like substantial enough changes to the document as to have to declare a new last call. Is it your read that that is necessary? Those recommendations have been in there since the beginning, and it has always seemed to me that we all agreed on them. Why reopen those discussions now? --94eb2c0b73161a1dd50526e82d0a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= ue, Dec 15, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Fred Baker (fred) <fred@cisco.com>= wrote:=C2=A0
Personally, I'll agree with the third statement I quoted abov= e. Let's tweak DAD, if you agree it's important, but leave mechanis= ms, prefixes, and the sizes of prefixes to another draft.

But wait... it seems to me that we've had pretty good conse= nsus on the current text for most of its lifetime. The draft most definitel= y does include prefix sizes and discussions of mechanisms. For example, it = says that if explicit assigment of addresses are necessary, the network sho= uld assign a /64 per host using DHCPv6 PD. So it mentions prefixes, sizes a= nd mechanisms. That text has been there from the beginning, and went throug= h WG last call. Are you saying we should now pull that text out?

It doesn't s= eem that anyone currently disagrees with those statements per se. Yes, ther= e are some doubts about DAD, but to my mind that's mostly a procedural = issue: I think everybody here agrees that DAD is not useful in a scenario w= here a /64 is dedicated to the host, but RFC 4862 requires it, so we have t= o be careful about the wording.

<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">If we were to take out text about prefix sizes an= d mechanisms, then a substantial part of the recommendations (i.e., where w= e recommend a /64, and where we recommend DHCPv6 PD) would be struck. That = seems like substantial enough changes to the document as to have to declare= a new last call. Is it your read that that is necessary? Those recommendat= ions have been in there since the beginning, and it has always seemed to me= that we all agreed on them. Why reopen those discussions now?
--94eb2c0b73161a1dd50526e82d0a-- From nobody Mon Dec 14 20:32:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BE521B2AAD for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:32:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TyfFbUd2E2ci for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x231.google.com (mail-qk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 504631B2AAA for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:32:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by qkfb125 with SMTP id b125so170220972qkf.2 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:32:21 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=3t4AXYRYKQ4ngoTkn1D88NYY/aqQk+aEZcyV4yLqqSE=; b=HieBLbPG0zXhfXN1DSv30kNxP4Eeq9cK4iO+n8IYeL3KPMYzmCX8m39RZB3GRRiNVR j59Psqa9ghOmXmcvgeeBT+8nf5aV09sS7DUsMiDOauEMVFzs+lcB+YB9cPb1mMlMtP/n 208SipElrCFL6xsBn3CPJhkyChhV+ovOH3Y0Q7vzDwv7dZilO4LZAS/yZ3cFgI/Hg89E EbBAvimv9+aa/mKKvjwoM/zQ0me9jr1Hi3WHen/r6l6Am5zFXBH0s7Fj+GJKHoH/Pm2i 5SqIeSQjXlnl1Ln18cW0Lk9ZJJeXhit9w14HTkQaKwx+5UkWXNSQH/fj9IvvKdfULzrk GT2w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=3t4AXYRYKQ4ngoTkn1D88NYY/aqQk+aEZcyV4yLqqSE=; b=ec1iZOoO2ZdhFTvX9SSb8zovu9LiTbIFTdUcR4jlbvLa80pvprZ2JP3J6Sw4zHKgXs A7z6AyM95Pat0mafcc5/1MCNeSdr1q9nCiZxt3aP3IDLFtM8EnuXnmE3r8FOwYfaxeVi Kn53HxcSagPIEXmiQVqBCxC48/doY0hFLDjz5KMNhRdNt86FrzH91ft0muKoZTwaou1m NY3w3sv/GWylXbfwZbxC69KQegdtNf1bekBzKM/eAuhjbLs90SKLBcPOksEA+53PfGYZ wQphulrHOtUVAc32iLSOfURpu+lW0Q3f+ICmxofoNch2ER9qWMdJiZlY3dwrOavBw9Fq jh6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlEO8D5cVifx+H6jKpFEz/TXny8o72nCa+AQkHb21to1HGW5QsDw0HHnzMRghlFEDDFL39GfxDpKBen2vKSVHjPwuAAwkbepmJGuqzHe7V5tr5FNCg= X-Received: by 10.13.238.194 with SMTP id x185mr21908256ywe.35.1450153941334; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:32:21 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:32:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:32:01 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Templin, Fred L" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0310948b76310526e8465e Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 04:32:24 -0000 --94eb2c0310948b76310526e8465e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote: > I see what you are getting at, but one thing that has been gnawing at me > > regarding this and the previous sentence is the use of the term =E2=80=9C= physical > > network interface=E2=80=9D. For example, the interface the DHCPv6 PD was = received > > on could be a virtual interface. I think I know what you are trying to sa= y, > > but is there a different term that could be used instead of =E2=80=9Cphys= ical=E2=80=9D? > What if we just removed the word "physical", like so? Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it possible for the host not to assign global IPv6 addresses directly to its network interface, but instead to assign them to an internal interface such as a loopback interface. This obviates the need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection on its network interface for anything other than the link-local address network interface, reducing network traffic. Cheers, Lorenzo --94eb2c0310948b76310526e8465e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= ue, Dec 15, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boei= ng.com> wrote:

I see what you are getting at, but one thing= that has been gnawing at me

regarding this and the previous sentence is = the use of the term =E2=80=9Cphysical

network interface=E2=80=9D. For example, the= interface the DHCPv6 PD was received

on could be a virtual interface. I think I k= now what you are trying to say,

but is there a different term that could be = used instead of =E2=80=9Cphysical=E2=80=9D?


What if we just removed =C2=A0the word "physic= al", like so?

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, a DHCPv= 6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0po= ssible for the host not to assign global IPv6 addresses directly to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0its network interface, but instead to assign them to an int= ernal
=C2=A0 =C2=A0interface such as a loopback interface.=C2=A0 = This obviates the need to
=C2=A0 =C2=A0perform Neighbour Discover= y and Duplicate Address Detection
=C2=A0 =C2=A0on its network int= erface for anything other than the link-local address
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0network interface, reducing network traffic.

<= div>Cheers,
Lorenzo
--94eb2c0310948b76310526e8465e-- From nobody Mon Dec 14 20:52:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 453D71AD374 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:52:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XOJxPhKYqSDu for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:52:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x22f.google.com (mail-qk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC3621A92AB for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:52:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by qkfb125 with SMTP id b125so170688759qkf.2 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:52:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=E8Y6pQynzUi9fkqMO9zfaZDQORO1HlprEXH6kxJCjFI=; b=FZS2O4kVNo06SkV6SKIFRcPKB4rhCuWIawZcoF+YNilfyF8+RKXS41HIfs0PvCEZjC C7QpArtRDDCVOBl0sDx9VywcxL9T4zxfy0b/UOD9xwRzScvmKgRMjExOKgqXKvO5p4Kk sgj0mvokDMaX+pEBQ+ZLjaGO4Rn3JAaCk3vdbnecXENbwD3MjrtwtuzGFI2RnD2wKxvX /+046Ern+Vn+3db6eGRgPgeVmAJX4S022hS8DHXpk/oN2rbL6bs4f3akW5vYKurZ/3Dj nxMzZSyI0o+ihP73fZnytRtHDbBEeVCWe+wwxBSC1J+XgRYyYOBaR1WaC75BSDN+uSlL ocNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=E8Y6pQynzUi9fkqMO9zfaZDQORO1HlprEXH6kxJCjFI=; b=FDJ2oE6m8nzQ8J0pUrFJ6nug8PhHtPpylElm5GmVlbcdh4LiY9ZMe2v4oAOkpi5IYt wtwtSGhiP1KBIpxYOsvEJtTnJauXtGM1akMWBtuNqz8f56USECX6P5zdmjuqMVePTrdZ 1UKNqMR1xt6sRRFVsjrCezTZtSSIBbjd6OMY1Lm6Xw2ZYWiDH+CTc05kiSLLEDjGgwSB RrlHPKSy+8NCa87cCV2/gBOB42y/2eMtGk+XlfpDsVL0FYuSLh6f1C31HEiMn1zHWh0R KEtmA6DPnWUuz6QcrqAVYTCFlWtG0zm7rntanSiso8v9F2jOJYajk5cYAAzFVbIyfnWo G+vw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkIgDEtxp45Wx6ZCzC8YykYp/BW+HfhZpwuCogbTNI+AnVnd5d7MG4L0fdK2BxsS19wH6fmxG5IEe7cIKqTTNZ43tZzMSUwy511cYhDrtxeYnh9RX8= X-Received: by 10.129.108.88 with SMTP id h85mr6873170ywc.156.1450155161840; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:52:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 20:52:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <095CE768-12E3-401C-81D3-DA686EB0223D@cisco.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <566F6E1D.7020702@umn.edu> <095CE768-12E3-401C-81D3-DA686EB0223D@cisco.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 13:52:21 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Fred Baker (fred)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114d88f04b06480526e88fa2 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 04:52:44 -0000 --001a114d88f04b06480526e88fa2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > I'm beginning to wonder if document shouldn't explicitly say the details >> of assigning a /64 prefix to every host, such as via DHCPv6 PD, are beyond >> the scope of this document and the subject of work in progress and possible >> future work, with an informational reference to >> draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host and any other similar work. >> > > As I just said to David, I do think the mechanism is out of scope, and a > lot of the details of it implementation are therefore out of scope. Your > statement leaves me confused; "the details of assigning a /64 per host" > should not be out of scope, but "/64 per host" should be out of scope. > What I meant was that the network architecture required to assign a /64 per host should not be in scope. draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host is about how you build a network where each user has their own /64. That is great work, and I believe it is the best approach we have for deploying networks shared across multiple untrusted users such as a public wifi network, but it is a separate topic from this document, even though what it does is follow the recommendations in this document. What should be (and, I think, has always been) in scope for this document is what the network provides the host (multiple addresses) and how it conveys that information to the host (RA, DHCPv6 PD with a /64). From that perspective, a network that sends an RA with A=1 to a link which will only ever have one host on it, and a network that sends an RA with A=1 to a link which might have 10, 100, or 1000 hosts are the same. In both cases the network sends an RA with A=1, and in both cases the host behaves as per the IPv6 specifications. --001a114d88f04b06480526e88fa2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= ue, Dec 15, 2015 at 1:03 PM, Fred Baker (fred) <fred@cisco.com>= wrote:
I'm beginning to wonder if docume= nt shouldn't explicitly say the details of assigning a /64 prefix to ev= ery host, such as via DHCPv6 PD, are beyond the scope of this document and = the subject of work in progress and possible future work, with an informati= onal reference to draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host and any othe= r similar work.

As I just said to David, I do think the mechanism is= out of scope, and a lot of the details of it implementation are therefore = out of scope. Your statement leaves me confused; "the details of assig= ning a /64 per host" should not be out of scope, but "/64 per hos= t" should be out of scope.

What I meant was that the network architecture required to assign a /64 pe= r host should not be in scope. draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host= is about how you build a network where each user has their own /64. That i= s great work, and I believe it is the best approach we have for deploying n= etworks shared across multiple untrusted users such as a public wifi networ= k, but it is a separate topic from this document, even though what it does = is follow the recommendations in this document.

Wh= at should be (and, I think, has always been) in scope for this document is = what the network provides the host (multiple addresses) and how it conveys = that information to the host (RA, DHCPv6 PD with a /64). From that perspect= ive, a network that sends an RA with A=3D1 to a link which will only ever h= ave one host on it, and a network that sends an RA with A=3D1 to a link whi= ch might have 10, 100, or 1000 hosts are the same. In both cases the networ= k sends an RA with A=3D1, and in both cases the host behaves as per the IPv= 6 specifications.
--001a114d88f04b06480526e88fa2-- From nobody Mon Dec 14 21:12:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C05A1B2AE1; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 21:12:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V4DB-8xa1JuL; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 21:12:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F0B71B2B00; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 21:11:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mb-2.local (c-73-158-58-32.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [73.158.58.32]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.14.9/8.14.9) with ESMTP id tBF5BNgu069454 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 15 Dec 2015 05:11:24 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) To: "Templin, Fred L" , Lorenzo Colitti , =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: joel jaeggli X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <566FA0F4.20109@bogus.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 21:11:16 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:42.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/42.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="llgJVWMuPoVG60GdqMFSw4klxuOch86ug" Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 05:12:46 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --llgJVWMuPoVG60GdqMFSw4klxuOch86ug Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12/14/15 8:08 PM, Templin, Fred L wrote: > Hi Lorenzo, >=20 > =20 >=20 > I see what you are getting at, but one thing that has been gnawing at m= e >=20 > regarding this and the previous sentence is the use of the term =E2=80=9C= physical >=20 > network interface=E2=80=9D. For example, the interface the DHCPv6 PD wa= s received >=20 > on could be a virtual interface. I think I know what you are trying to = say, >=20 > but is there a different term that could be used instead of =E2=80=9Cph= ysical=E2=80=9D? It seems likely that if you have something on a loopback or sufficently similar interface you're not guarding it with dad. > =20 >=20 > Thanks =E2=80=93 Fred >=20 > fred.l.templin@boeing.com >=20 > =20 >=20 > *From:*Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com] > *Sent:* Monday, December 14, 2015 4:45 PM > *To:* =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 > *Cc:* Templin, Fred L; v6ops@ietf.org; internet-drafts@ietf.org; > i-d-announce@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt >=20 > =20 >=20 > On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Lorenzo Colitti > wrote: >=20 > How about making a slight tweak in the ordering and changing the > text to this: >=20 > =20 >=20 > This obviates the need to perform Neighbour Discovery and >=20 > Duplicate Address Detection on its physical network interface >=20 > for anything other than the link-local address, reducing network= > traffic. >=20 >=20 > Fred, would this text address your concerns on DAD? >=20 > =20 >=20 > As I said, I think discussion on strong vs. weak host model is out of > scope for this document. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 --llgJVWMuPoVG60GdqMFSw4klxuOch86ug Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; 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Received: from relay3.apple.com (relay3.apple.com [17.128.113.83]) by mail-in7.apple.com (Apple Secure Mail Relay) with SMTP id 1B.81.27014.061BF665; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:21:20 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11973e16-f793c6d000006986-93-566fb160db3a Received: from jimbu (jimbu.apple.com [17.151.62.37]) (using TLS with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by relay3.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 61.11.05180.061BF665; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:21:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.1.14] (50-197-138-101-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.197.138.101]) by jimbu.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 7.0.5.37.0 64bit (built Nov 11 2015)) with ESMTPSA id <0NZD006ILYZJDG50@jimbu.apple.com> for v6ops@ietf.org; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:21:20 -0800 (PST) Sender: cheshire@apple.com Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 MIME-version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.1 \(3096.5\)) From: Stuart Cheshire In-reply-to: <095CE768-12E3-401C-81D3-DA686EB0223D@cisco.com> Date: Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:21:20 -0800 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <566F6E1D.7020702@umn.edu> <095CE768-12E3-401C-81D3-DA686EB0223D@cisco.com> To: "v6ops@ietf.org" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3096.5) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrILMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAYrJuwMT/MYOETfovTx/YyOzB6LFny kymAMYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoErY/mBi2wFr/krPmyJbmB8wNPFyMkhIWAi0XzlCwuELSZx4d56 ti5GLg4hgb2MEhO/nGWBKbq7cxk7RKKbSeL89iZmCGczk8TEp3+ZQaqEBaQkXq38DGRzcDAL qEtMmZILEuYVMJD4f7WRHaLEX+L1tidsIDabgJbEi89XwGxOAVuJhrkLwGwWAVWJG2cPM4LY zALaEk/eXWCFmGMjsWPzA6gjZjFLXPh6gAkkIQLUcPrpZWaIS+Ulfq5sYAIpkhB4yyox50wH 6wRG4VkIN81CctMsJDsWMDKvYhTKTczM0c3MM9dLLCjISdVLzs/dxAgK4+l2YjsYH66yOsQo wMGoxMO7gDk/TIg1say4MvcQozQHi5I471czoJBAemJJanZqakFqUXxRaU5q8SFGJg5OqQbG JWzJHAeW7Jj3Wmbv5gk/KmcKvvnRf6m4fdJyTfmGb890gl7rCB3orP0bfVdZ3+od9xN+2wes Bbp9peVbpc2P2l0x/dzzrStXKLiebyZPZfhDkY//fx/z7k1eEHz5Z9CWYwxnI3asudcVzbfu 98WWm+UMCYvitz7cbKSmpyxzc9asvJMNEh9+K7EUZyQaajEXFScCAAwkqj5EAgAA X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrCLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiON1OVTdhY36YwaltvBanj+1ldmD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxvIDF9kKXvNXfNgS3cD4gKeLkZNDQsBE4u7OZewQtpjEhXvr 2boYuTiEBLqZJM5vb2KGcDYzSUx8+pcZpEpYQEri1crPQDYHB7OAusSUKbkgYV4BA4n/VxvZ IUr8JV5ve8IGYrMJaEm8+HwFzOYUsJVomLsAzGYRUJW4cfYwI4jNLKAt8eTdBVaIOTYSOzY/ YIfYO4tZ4sLXA0wgCRGghtNPLzNDXCov8XNlA9MERoFZCGfMQnLGLCRjFzAyr2IUKErNSaw0 1kssKMhJ1UvOz93ECAq7hsLgHYx/llkdYhTgYFTi4V3AnB8mxJpYVlyZe4hRgoNZSYR3QS9Q iDclsbIqtSg/vqg0J7X4EKM0B4uSOK+KEVBKID2xJDU7NbUgtQgmy8TBKdXAWMTw8uOObTG5 13dxO37+4nhMIbZII/tCFvPBt2pTTN0y+Q5wRFz+Z35B4Opio8hLy68dXlqy4PiXN5x5tk18 /DoM7WvkpYt1jI0FWPnklnxbrrW0qPz4u1r+W1vWH1h1dOEb24BZl3o4C8ql/9ov3rt8QV8q n4Wdyfnte6udMs6nmvEv2di5QImlOCPRUIu5qDgRAGHmhyY3AgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 06:21:22 -0000 On 14 Dec 2015, at 20:03, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > Personally, I'll agree with the third statement I quoted above. Let's = tweak DAD, if you agree it's important, but leave mechanisms, prefixes, = and the sizes of prefixes to another draft. I agree with Lorenzo=E2=80=99s sentiments on this. As IETF drafts go, this one is not saying anything especially = controversial. It seems to have broad community support. One of the = benefits of IPv6 is that it offers enough addresses to obviate the need = for awkward and fragile address sharing technologies. It is significant = that after Apple=E2=80=99s move to require IPv6 support for iOS 9 apps, = the handful of apps that have trouble with this are largely the = peer-to-peer apps that embed brittle IPv4 NAT traversal techniques. This = draft warns that unnecessarily parsimonious allocation of IPv6 addresses = may inadvertently lead us back to the same problems that we were trying = to escape with the move away from IPv4. The community seems to agree = about that. A main benefit of IPv6 is that it lets us shed much of the baggage that = IPv4 accumulated over the years. The more of that baggage with bring to = IPv6, the more we erode the benefit of IPv6. There seems to be broad = agreement on that. In the Working Group Last Call the comments were = mostly minor, not disagreeing with the basic premise of the draft, and = the authors worked to update the draft to address those comments. Then = the document was opened up to a further round of comments, and the = authors worked to update the draft to address those comments too. Fred, it sounds like you=E2=80=99re asking us to declare the bulk of the = document to be out-of-scope and saying that it should be deferred to = some unspecified future document. I agree that the discussion points = regarding DAD and that strong/weak host model should be deferred but the = draft seems to have reached rough consensus in its current form. Stuart Cheshire From nobody Mon Dec 14 22:54:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 310901B2B9B for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:53:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.389 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.389 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2xFgx7uw-eAL for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:53:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x235.google.com (mail-wm0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E42171B2B9A for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:53:57 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x235.google.com with SMTP id n186so10982271wmn.0 for ; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:53:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+O+tTuv2wCtH1ThNTe4fvpmpzpn83z+25ZRXAQu8Z94=; b=KKeE1lIcMWpHhAFRgWnooSLcdYI2XotEStZJfnlBftPV8BtLHDlDuFBx19z7e9DWJp fLXHMkJmau6Dz5T+vXleOc17Xt7lMTRcUdZABqC+FLJG79TY+1zmmU8W1Xet2vB3I6mY TXo6JUZDlWKEvAd33u0SSfwI1g+iumwZkEpSsv4FZ92qEjP5swaZGCFxQO9Qbbl28FWn 44EsaA+Ve+4r+2gmcQotxNLqpZM5XcHL2BH9qAfJvgwioTRZPS3JmQFXpEcOtkkV4n00 iHxOBaAucGfjpBl4YC8/ax0TKChZSQu4pyyLE3eESmR+q7baAY2ndiBR4USV6OuWjAa9 Uzqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+O+tTuv2wCtH1ThNTe4fvpmpzpn83z+25ZRXAQu8Z94=; b=MUecLSbiDwpLu1kEjwroqaePU8wtufcSbcahYMzRIMYC+Bdei7w6FtdFpw7+iH+U5B wftwt0e92o4TMWd97ZpHBfU13/r/nRi8hBM7uKL9da3rJog6QnMQkN40OGt2ju8nJ5E8 656deLhdFbKEPB3VKH9AXRaMj3rj5bMv5rO9+YKBlqiqJGpl6Af/2nldAmlo3DsJ15k0 ZI06pVmOkFNzHT2jjpZvP2IsGfYqWxAUDlfiQjydjmE5Wv0n+83kyQAoyLQarXh2hKrk twdUoUnXlE7oKYhHmbkRS+TtS8vzsREf1lj82DkjoT+DXs+ecDOm6hzYGv+X4YcRIKSA 70AA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkEnKBDeRFpU4AphcldF8Ecrm1/X8um6md3KWNraquOLMq5tYQFdVfQBmKUpau2WeZ2i2CEis45NbhdoWTNGDVs7WNVS/mgLl45gCfd76P7seeQsYQ= X-Received: by 10.28.129.82 with SMTP id c79mr2603412wmd.80.1450162436394; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:53:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.223.215 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Dec 2015 22:53:36 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <566F6E1D.7020702@umn.edu> <095CE768-12E3-401C-81D3-DA686EB0223D@cisco.com> From: Erik Kline Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:53:36 +0900 Message-ID: To: Stuart Cheshire Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 06:53:59 -0000 On 15 December 2015 at 15:21, Stuart Cheshire wrote: > On 14 Dec 2015, at 20:03, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > >> Personally, I'll agree with the third statement I quoted above. Let's tw= eak DAD, if you agree it's important, but leave mechanisms, prefixes, and t= he sizes of prefixes to another draft. > > I agree with Lorenzo=E2=80=99s sentiments on this. > > As IETF drafts go, this one is not saying anything especially controversi= al. It seems to have broad community support. One of the benefits of IPv6 i= s that it offers enough addresses to obviate the need for awkward and fragi= le address sharing technologies. It is significant that after Apple=E2=80= =99s move to require IPv6 support for iOS 9 apps, the handful of apps that = have trouble with this are largely the peer-to-peer apps that embed brittle= IPv4 NAT traversal techniques. This draft warns that unnecessarily parsimo= nious allocation of IPv6 addresses may inadvertently lead us back to the sa= me problems that we were trying to escape with the move away from IPv4. The= community seems to agree about that. > > A main benefit of IPv6 is that it lets us shed much of the baggage that I= Pv4 accumulated over the years. The more of that baggage with bring to IPv6= , the more we erode the benefit of IPv6. There seems to be broad agreement = on that. In the Working Group Last Call the comments were mostly minor, not= disagreeing with the basic premise of the draft, and the authors worked to= update the draft to address those comments. Then the document was opened u= p to a further round of comments, and the authors worked to update the draf= t to address those comments too. > > Fred, it sounds like you=E2=80=99re asking us to declare the bulk of the = document to be out-of-scope and saying that it should be deferred to some u= nspecified future document. I agree that the discussion points regarding DA= D and that strong/weak host model should be deferred but the draft seems to= have reached rough consensus in its current form. > > Stuart Cheshire Agreed. +1 also to the proposed clarification for the last paragraph of section 9.3= . I think this document *already* leaves the details of address assignment out. Section 6 is really just a survey of currently available protocol mechanisms for obtaining multiple addresses. The proposed change to 9.3 makes that paragraph appear to be appropriately less prescriptive. IMHO From nobody Tue Dec 15 00:07:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D0571A1A91 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 00:07:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.011 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.011 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rVoMelzM6_Rb for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 00:07:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowbell.employees.org (cowbell.employees.org [IPv6:2001:1868:a000:17::142]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17FA51A1B11 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 00:07:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54499D7881; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 00:07:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=subject :mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id :references:to; s=selector1; bh=YWhaXjDs1wQmeeAp26xfo/NV6Vk=; b= XVLW98Mr8CfoUpNSpdVYgBChRwVfxSSd3/atzAZnHENaBSKVKHhHa00yTwU2EQid 2VOPjOmdJq6H+5Bc5IttuRkuS+Fg2daL4dM6pdxmL9+Ya8qSLIL4mGY1yekL3fw3 ZtIpSUnQpLMY5qWi/mClZ/5vkJbkHk6qN/zpJJrViTs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=subject :mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id :references:to; q=dns; s=selector1; b=iBn2Exhe02fkss47+Ll+t/YDTF By6IopZEMuMiO+LOGRCGwvr41/erkJJy6zuWTZE1BIPDlsSq0FsW/fsb5hhAcLuq YesVQckX8Yy7lbY2hLh/jlcJEAEmMLeInEN0nDoNcXy6b9kg0+WtYJ/WAzFcSbVU v6r7w/TuNi/LGUqh8= Received: from h.hanazo.no (unknown [173.38.220.52]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E5B84D78B4; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 00:07:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9CD33C5FEC9; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:07:26 +0100 (CET) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4CF6330A-C60D-4410-9E9A-C0CE13AEC754"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.6b2 From: otroan@employees.org In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:07:25 +0100 Message-Id: <7D203B71-12B9-4F54-AED3-CAE84F65D667@employees.org> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <566F6E1D.7020702@umn.edu> <095CE768-12E3-401C-81D3-DA686EB0223D@cisco.com> To: Erik Kline X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:07:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4CF6330A-C60D-4410-9E9A-C0CE13AEC754 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 >>> Personally, I'll agree with the third statement I quoted above. = Let's tweak DAD, if you agree it's important, but leave mechanisms, = prefixes, and the sizes of prefixes to another draft. >>=20 >> I agree with Lorenzo=E2=80=99s sentiments on this. >>=20 >> As IETF drafts go, this one is not saying anything especially = controversial. It seems to have broad community support. One of the = benefits of IPv6 is that it offers enough addresses to obviate the need = for awkward and fragile address sharing technologies. It is significant = that after Apple=E2=80=99s move to require IPv6 support for iOS 9 apps, = the handful of apps that have trouble with this are largely the = peer-to-peer apps that embed brittle IPv4 NAT traversal techniques. This = draft warns that unnecessarily parsimonious allocation of IPv6 addresses = may inadvertently lead us back to the same problems that we were trying = to escape with the move away from IPv4. The community seems to agree = about that. >>=20 >> A main benefit of IPv6 is that it lets us shed much of the baggage = that IPv4 accumulated over the years. The more of that baggage with = bring to IPv6, the more we erode the benefit of IPv6. There seems to be = broad agreement on that. In the Working Group Last Call the comments = were mostly minor, not disagreeing with the basic premise of the draft, = and the authors worked to update the draft to address those comments. = Then the document was opened up to a further round of comments, and the = authors worked to update the draft to address those comments too. >>=20 >> Fred, it sounds like you=E2=80=99re asking us to declare the bulk of = the document to be out-of-scope and saying that it should be deferred to = some unspecified future document. I agree that the discussion points = regarding DAD and that strong/weak host model should be deferred but the = draft seems to have reached rough consensus in its current form. >>=20 >> Stuart Cheshire >=20 > Agreed. >=20 > +1 also to the proposed clarification for the last paragraph of = section 9.3. >=20 > I think this document *already* leaves the details of address > assignment out. Section 6 is really just a survey of currently > available protocol mechanisms for obtaining multiple addresses. The > proposed change to 9.3 makes that paragraph appear to be appropriately > less prescriptive. I also think the document (with last paragraph of 9.3 changed/deleted) = strikes the right balance. Ole --Apple-Mail=_4CF6330A-C60D-4410-9E9A-C0CE13AEC754 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJWb8o+AAoJEL7aWKiYQt924fcQAJlNZBWuplP11OjUE9whPEVf HsQCBkgKjt83EdptQnKd0jI0CnQEfx7AtlLZVeeZsSrdBSbDFhjn5tJQRl8xm4yn ow+rY+qP9z+E0ylaLHRh2LYbl68oyi/YLPfz4u5SI+/P/IFaVdpyZUuANLpL9rsR Vs8HqefGMzglx2k+pXD3oNSoXPQnQl6MFhoPhl0GhgIcSPqOStk7A8m58gwyqqMv h8EEe1DOTKP1nwkbIH/s8Jb2wdWRfIQ7lOfbUjXeObW8qD+vARDXvivczBvg8ipe RRd8ET7m+q8sJP4mew0rVsXh+cHFJlzqhHSZHKu9p7ODHP27aJH+jl0AjCZ9xqVx n8z2J267yVr6fCjHagS4M99EUpeNgNp9XMiGbgDXBc5S+v++6gSohWrZjt+afQRb GPGVXKHEZmOcig+z57k7xQCrxKvzeUkvAliN8MOvKy9UsmjKC7FbUko4u2/jcKs7 ja+asFQJkwyiPUMRoLLWUPpkPjRfaAIknUnD9HJDa6tU9xl2c7g7nSSdWcDJwOLZ PViQd01VEJ51kprJY/EpE4cOuPByQs/KYw6yULOVD0AxiH61XHUKkjeu+XlBT2x6 UV0VmRPVZHxQkvXl185/2rdD+F0IkpgXiFp0XfEVnk5C5g4NjPWxgAt/vY+mnoGY AuS4Q3JTYTPmXfKtcNMZ =D2mQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_4CF6330A-C60D-4410-9E9A-C0CE13AEC754-- From nobody Tue Dec 15 07:17:08 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57BCD1A8A8D; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:17:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CVF5Bmla6u-a; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:17:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com [130.76.32.231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2825C1A8A87; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:17:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBFFH59w003989; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:17:05 -0800 Received: from XCH-PHX-213.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-213.sw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.142]) by blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBFFGuEJ003384 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:16:56 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-213.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.13.191]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:16:52 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRM14kKZlCFjAH9ESehHqsgR6qp57EY3SQgACQlAD//3tX8IACHFYqgAU3TID//7GdoIAAjdeA//96OaA= Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:16:51 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9XCHBLV504nwnosb_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= , "i-d-announce@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:17:06 -0000 --_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9XCHBLV504nwnosb_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTG9yZW56bywNCg0KQWxtb3N0LiBXaGF0IHdvdWxkIG1ha2UgbWUgaGFwcGllciBpcyBpZiB3 ZSBjb3VsZCBkcm9wIHRoZSBwaHJhc2UNCmJlZ2lubmluZzog4oCcbm90IHRvIGFzc2lnbiBnbG9i YWwgSVB2NiBhZGRyZXNzZXPigJ0gaW4gdGhlIGZpcnN0IHNlbnRlbmNlDQpzbyB0aGF0IHdlIHdv dWxkIGhhdmU6DQoNCiAg4oCcQWxzbywgYSBESENQdjYgUEQgbW9kZWwgd2l0aCBhIGRlZGljYXRl ZCAvNjQgcGVyIGhvc3QgbWFrZXMgaXQNCiAgIHBvc3NpYmxlIGZvciB0aGUgaG9zdCB0byBhc3Np Z24gdGhlbSB0byBhbiBpbnRlcm5hbCBpbnRlcmZhY2Ugc3VjaCBhcw0KICAgYSBsb29wYmFjayBp bnRlcmZhY2UuICBUaGlzIG9idmlhdGVzIHRoZSBuZWVkIHRvICBwZXJmb3JtIE5laWdoYm91cg0K ICAgRGlzY292ZXJ5IGFuZCBEdXBsaWNhdGUgQWRkcmVzcyBEZXRlY3Rpb24gb24gaXRzIG5ldHdv 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-0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo.hq.phicoh.net [130.37.15.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9A081A8F36 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:26:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #91) id m1a8rUq-0000FdC; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:26:36 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org To: "Templin, Fred L" From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 11 Dec 2015 18:55:43 +0000 ." <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:26:31 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:26:54 -0000 (I changed the subject to reflect that this is about DHCPv6 PD) >> It seems to me that the only sensible model for PD is that any node >> receiving a prefix is a router. > >I think we agreed before that the node must present the outward appearance >of a router, yes. But, internally, applications are presented with the appe= >arance >of an ordinary host. It seems to me that we (the IETF) should mostly focus on outward appearance. In general, we do not defined host interfaces, just concepts. There are a few exceptions, but for example the socket interface was never extended to support happy eyeballs. And there is a lot of networking related APIs that are defined outside the IETF. Of course, we should also avoid specifying behavior that is incompatible with the socket API. >> As discussed earlier, for redirection to work, the receiving node has to >> be a router for the purposes for ND. > >From an external appearance, yes. > >> If we declare the node to be a router then the whole strong vs weak end s= >ystem >> discussion goes away. > >From an internal appearance, maybe not. If the interface over which the >delegated prefix is received is the same interface to which addresses from >the delegated prefix are assigned, then to applications it looks just like >an >ordinary host. The AERO interface does just that, and we are now exploring >whether the same would apply to other interface types. By and large, the socket API doesn't really deal with interfaces. Most applications written using the socket API don't deal with interfaces at all. So from an internal appearance, where an address is assigned is mostly irrelevant. Though of course externally visible behavior will be visible to the application as well. For example, in an (overly) strong ES model, if you assign an address to the loopback interface, packets with that address as the source address will never leave the host. To me, the externally visible difference between strong and weak ES, is that in strong ES, a packet will always depart from the interface to which the address is assigned. So if a host is found to originate packets with source address that do not belong to the local subnet, then the host likely uses the weak ES model (or is broken in some way). >> I don't think there is any downside. In my opinion, hosts should not assign >> addresses to internal interfaces and then use them on other interfaces. >> If a router does that then the situation is completely clear. Being a router >> doesn't seem to impose unreasonable requirements. > >This is strong/weak ES consideration, where you seem to be implying that >strong ES is more "host-like". But, we are wondering if this makes a >difference to applications - will some applications prefer to run on >one ES model vs. the other? In the past I did write a stack that had strong ES built in even when the node was a router. That's just not recommended. Though for a multi-homed host (that is not a router) I certainly prefer the strong ES model. So for me, saying that a node that receives a prefix using PD has to behave like a router, essentially implies weak ES. And of course that will be visible to applications. Though as I said before, applications written using the socket API are generally not aware that there are different interfaces. >> But maybe it is best to wait for things to go wrong because the obvious >> fix would involve changing ND. And I'm sure nobody would want to do that >> at this time. > >I don't see any problems at this time. Well OK; there is one problem. Route= >rs >are not supposed to send Redirects to other routers. Which means that, with >standard ND, the PD hosts would always use the dogleg path through their >default router to talk to other nodes on the link. AERO fixes this by allowing >router-to-router redirects. This is already specified in RFC6706 but updated >by AERO(bis). That's certainly one interesting case. I was thinking about a more serious problem. Assume two routers connected to a single link. A node on that link requests a prefix using DHCPv6 PD. Both routers run a DHCPv6 relay. Absent additional specifications, only one router will install a static route. Obviously, if the router reboots it has to restore all static routes. Normally, a DHCP relays doesn't maintain state, so that's new. Now, what happens if the router that has the static route goes down? How does the other router take over? From nobody Tue Dec 15 07:36:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 428491A1EF3 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:36:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0Koa9PIGu79O for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:36:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x234.google.com (mail-qk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A5661A8F35 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:36:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x234.google.com with SMTP id k189so18361006qkc.0 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:36:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=KLo51q7OtwZQiXxOIP5CRC8nCX4nWLZc0MWabhbd1LU=; b=NmWp5ww1kL80cUlDdq/J+aXY/AXbh75vGk67MPxsklXLanXUVEK2+iC/zVygS4JOlv tJZ1xGK3ZHIHF/dhV3IIpaZ4zzV59S45nCR0DH8PBekpDuG8Hr8YD92ABU6mHIN9AGeo hS2RNWgvgoHatl0VjIN5NAIXAf29yM9FHbkmTp5LAWe4G6sgz+3PUY3s8mKJkjGw4puI kdOMi/xkyQgV7Kw69N9tzcQmXNEhFow9+iJiwyUoz2oE9JQVa/J+McFNa3GM1Mnwqzpu QZT0gCvKRtyvdYefBaekbHiqupsnM/NihGSDxvY/l0IftqVH6g52RvSuEBlqNNF06om0 BwMg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=KLo51q7OtwZQiXxOIP5CRC8nCX4nWLZc0MWabhbd1LU=; b=JZ7v03sKqJqBZFSqzxkMPm7Evf7qPDqHLVQoNoY7mKc8oMAK5TdPU6ygAmH3YjBuYi o6CfYe9p/zAFR0jsMqkS+F6UyxYG1hflob2mAJbaJyvmmYGKgDI9QEqw7f01drb0eTue UiDbnyhBUbX6XvzMoHssstJ6cdVFRubxeq5n/sJZYhsR5JsIsmKFD9CfdBa5WkCSnGTY aYRhQCZf7n70DFhEfASTIQeftMw5QI257UyGBZEyfctBJD9CjvIPmN0XFx3VQbqDkiK8 vSsMZv7QjA2KH+u85KNtFSThrElSLqG+5Sm6U/kttJQCFT0/uD4Vg3c812pmq+QIpZfr 2tsw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkUJPMbfG9s3R1W3QlGKJsO+zZcFR43GWqLSygeqwi3ixG/2j8acMLGWiK1mhQquVhLKMvfGodQauVY7xf35iTTeB7wkSQuh7mN6I+MvJw4M8+VJHM= X-Received: by 10.129.108.88 with SMTP id h85mr8615180ywc.156.1450193782523; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:36:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 07:36:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 00:36:02 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Templin, Fred L" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114d88f043e5920526f18d8f Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:36:28 -0000 --001a114d88f043e5920526f18d8f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, the problem is as follows. If the host assigns the addresses to its external network interface and does not do DAD, then it is a violation of RFC 4862, period. The text is very clear: nodes run a "duplicate address detection" algorithm on addresses before assigning them to an interface. The Duplicate Address Detection algorithm is performed on all addresses Therefore, in order to say that DAD is not necessary on the external network interface, our document must say that the addresses are not assigned to that interface. Otherwise we are recommending a violation of, or a change to, RFC 4862, and that is beyond the remit of this working group. Let me suggest (almost identical) text again: Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it possible for the host not to assign addresses directly to its network interface, but instead to assign them to an internal interface such as a loopback interface. This obviates the need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection on its network interface for anything other than the link-local address, reducing network traffic= . Are you saying that you don't want this text to say that the addresses are not assigned to the network interface? But if the addresses *are* assigned to the network interface, that's a violation of RFC 4862. Is that what you're recommending? Cheers, Lorenzo On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 12:16 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote: > Hi Lorenzo, > > > > Almost. What would make me happier is if we could drop the phrase > > beginning: =E2=80=9Cnot to assign global IPv6 addresses=E2=80=9D in the f= irst sentence > > so that we would have: > > > > =E2=80=9CAlso, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > > possible for the host to assign them to an internal interface such as > > a loopback interface. This obviates the need to perform Neighbour > > Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection on its network interface > > for anything other than the link-local address network interface, > > reducing network traffic.=E2=80=9D > > > > Does this work for you? > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > > *From:* Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com] > *Sent:* Monday, December 14, 2015 8:32 PM > *To:* Templin, Fred L > *Cc:* =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89; v6ops@ietf.org; internet-draf= ts@ietf.org; > i-d-announce@ietf.org > *Subject:* Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt > > > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Templin, Fred L < > Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: > > I see what you are getting at, but one thing that has been gnawing at me > > regarding this and the previous sentence is the use of the term =E2=80=9C= physical > > network interface=E2=80=9D. For example, the interface the DHCPv6 PD was = received > > on could be a virtual interface. I think I know what you are trying to sa= y, > > but is there a different term that could be used instead of =E2=80=9Cphys= ical=E2=80=9D? > > > > What if we just removed the word "physical", like so? > > > > Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > > possible for the host not to assign global IPv6 addresses directly to > > its network interface, but instead to assign them to an internal > > interface such as a loopback interface. This obviates the need to > > perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection > > on its network interface for anything other than the link-local addres= s > > network interface, reducing network traffic. > > > > Cheers, > > Lorenzo > --001a114d88f043e5920526f18d8f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,

the problem is as follows.
<= div>
If the host assigns the addresses to its external networ= k interface and does not do DAD, then it is a violation of RFC 4862, period= . The text is very clear:

=C2=A0 =C2=A0nodes = run a "duplicate address detection" algorithm on
=C2=A0= =C2=A0addresses before assigning them to an interface.=C2=A0 The Duplicate=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Address Detection algorithm is performed on all add= resses

Therefore, in order to say that DAD i= s not necessary on the external network interface, our document must say th= at the addresses are not assigned to that interface. Otherwise we are recom= mending a violation of, or a change to, RFC 4862, and that is beyond the re= mit of this working group.

<= div class=3D"gmail_extra">Let me suggest (almost identical) text again:
=

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated= /64 per host makes it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0possibl= e for the host not to assign addresses directly to its network
=C2=A0 =C2=A0interface, but instead to assign them to a= n internal interface such as
=C2=A0 =C2=A0a= loopback interface.=C2=A0 This obviates the need to perform Neighbour
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Discovery and Duplicate Address De= tection on its network interface
=C2=A0 =C2= =A0for anything other than the link-local address, reducing network traffic= .

Are = you saying that you don't want this text to say that the addresses are = not assigned to the network interface? But if the addresses *are* assigned = to the network interface, that's a violation of RFC 4862. Is that what = you're recommending?

Cheers,
Lorenzo

On Wed, Dec 16= , 2015 at 12:16 AM, Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com= > wrote:

Hi Lorenzo,

=C2=A0

Almost. What would make me happier is if we = could drop the phrase

beginning: =E2=80=9Cnot to assign global IPv= 6 addresses=E2=80=9D in the first sentence

so that we would have:<= /p>

=C2=A0

=C2=A0=C2=A0=E2=80=9CAlso, a DHCPv6 PD model= with a dedicated /64 per host makes it

=C2=A0=C2=A0 possible for the host to assign= them to an internal interface such as

=C2=A0=C2=A0 a loopback interface.=C2=A0 Thi= s obviates the need to =C2=A0perform Neighbour

=C2=A0=C2=A0 Discovery and Duplicate Address= Detection on its network interface

=C2=A0=C2=A0 for anything other than the lin= k-local address =C2=A0network interface,

=C2=A0=C2=A0 reducing network traffic= .=E2=80=9D

=C2=A0

Does this work for you?=

=C2=A0

Thanks - Fred

=C2=A0

From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com]
Sent: Monday, December 14, 2015 8:32 PM
To: Templin, Fred L
Cc: =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89; v6ops@ietf.org; internet-drafts@ietf.org; i-d-announce@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availabi= lity-03.txt

=C2=A0

On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Templin, Fred L <= ;Fred.L.Temp= lin@boeing.com> wrote:

I see what you are getting at, but one thing= that has been gnawing at me

regarding this and the previous sentence is = the use of the term =E2=80=9Cphysical

network interface=E2=80=9D. For example, the= interface the DHCPv6 PD was received

on could be a virtual interface. I think I k= now what you are trying to say,

but is there a different term that could be = used instead of =E2=80=9Cphysical=E2=80=9D?

=C2=A0

What if we just removed =C2=A0the word "physica= l", like so?

=C2=A0

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicate= d /64 per host makes it

=C2=A0 =C2=A0possible for the host not to assign glo= bal IPv6 addresses directly to

=C2=A0 =C2=A0its network interface, but instead to a= ssign them to an internal

=C2=A0 =C2=A0interface such as a loopback interface.= =C2=A0 This obviates the need to

=C2=A0 =C2=A0perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplica= te Address Detection

=C2=A0 =C2=A0on its network interface for anything o= ther than the link-local address

=C2=A0 =C2=A0network interface, reducing network tra= ffic.

=C2=A0

Cheers,

Lorenzo


--001a114d88f043e5920526f18d8f-- From nobody Tue Dec 15 08:48:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0598B1A6FB6 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:48:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -114.51 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-114.51 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Js0DTSjGNFRa for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 589C01A6FC9 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 08:47:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2299; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1450198079; x=1451407679; h=from:to:subject:date:message-id:references:in-reply-to: reply-to:mime-version; bh=BGsmzwMvIohyu9tAXXk0cnRlH5eKU3GFt3db7ytRdao=; b=htkfrRAYJxnBgqdVp6SRn8tXpwMgVCebN3U3wMDlMufMixx+FzShfJL2 oWiHQC/8G9Z31H4EMrqX/rYgRLcnV+HAL4AARy6PySm1fo2HNg58RXROu MQ397edZSB4udYkpitXCrFb3MvV/A3DaInBOkPuhfLdOu/bRga8YG2uMX w=; X-Files: signature.asc : 833 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DtAgCYQ3BW/5ldJa1egzqBPwa9Uw6BY?= =?us-ascii?q?4YNAoFHOBQBAQEBAQEBfwuENQEBBB1sAgFOMg4XAgQTDoghskGLLgEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQ8JiGWHIYNzgRoFlnwBgQuBYYFiiHmBXIRFkwWDcwEfA?= =?us-ascii?q?UOEBHKDMjqBCAEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,433,1444694400"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="218232310" Received: from rcdn-core-2.cisco.com ([173.37.93.153]) by alln-iport-6.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 15 Dec 2015 16:47:58 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-012.cisco.com (xch-rcd-012.cisco.com [173.37.102.22]) by rcdn-core-2.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tBFGlwv5008683 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:47:58 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-013.cisco.com (173.37.102.23) by XCH-RCD-012.cisco.com (173.37.102.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 10:47:57 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-013.cisco.com ([173.37.102.23]) by XCH-RCD-013.cisco.com ([173.37.102.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 10:47:57 -0600 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRN1ha4kDZ5QCGJUihM6kh6Jq8jg== Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:47:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.33.65] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6372BB52-6C92-4239-A430-32D720C69388"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:48:01 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6372BB52-6C92-4239-A430-32D720C69388 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have just seen several comments basically affirming Lorenzo's proposed = clarifications and otherwise limiting the scope of this draft. I have = stated my personal opinions, and have hopefully been clear that I don't = consider my opinion normative. But following the conversation, my = perception is that Fred has been trying to drive into the draft = something that nobody else is calling for or sees as required, and in = fact belongs in a separate draft. I'd like a sense of the list on that. I'll give you four options: (1) the draft is fine as it stands, (2) = Lorenzo's proposed clarifications make the draft represent your view, = (3) the DHCP-PD consideration Fred is driving needs to be more = thoroughly addressed, or (4) there is a fourth outcome that needs to = happen. In the fourth case, please tell me what that would be. Please = comment to v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org, and I'll report the outcome as = it is in my inbox ~24 hours hence. --Apple-Mail=_6372BB52-6C92-4239-A430-32D720C69388 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIVAwUBVnBEPUayAOS/EQ8MAQI1GxAAjzC1cweLIZNlC6zmYyi8eG05Q+bicuPy UReMt5ydWdwlumYV+U2kdv++kd6V3CLFuI5YitRqBWZq5mcp6/dfdPWjvp75m7xC xu95zdHYZyScHKH6UrCrvRbvwKN8i91ZQOVhre5aXzhKaCoKBpR7b/qNdafXPNaI mrE6d0M1tvV9jZoPOBkm85MijeR8nqub7bF6BZDsHLUChgG7wwXE0spoX21MFtK6 5+u18MU1G9x6EPmgbaym44Ep7YUOm9JA8xPrZG7WxKpJVsfGCYhqkFNgT4GtMWvJ QCH7fuXtIAmaO43X8dFTUM1YyTdHQK7GDxg7F5LvUSfAl+7mgNqY1xY7fP2DETlq D/NBtWLkjBMC4PzeeDWDLf6sJKUJHdDDEFlLb3FZnZp6u2puQGKRzbUVNpfs0h1P d4UmINzEc+KSC6DqhFx1vM2n3wTxjgfNvYBobeuWX2UvHDmeLjsXvh2YVk8/vFBr lm301NglcUVeR/0vmWkTsA+7l0mH630kRLGz1d0qS2nALOxwq+Pt7GDs3I3ikg0f lTLA5g9JkNDXbbvzFT5aprNYYADJ6Z0tBqLnBlYpG8MxALiosycZXJQJ7aXWhubX T7fqFQluavxiq2OH7jbSH3eqfUBI/rVprAUSq8q5gHJVDG5dyMs5QvcofGRDLKjE La5FW3zko3A= =AaTr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6372BB52-6C92-4239-A430-32D720C69388-- From nobody Tue Dec 15 09:14:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77C4A1A90F4 for ; 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Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:14:11 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:13:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 02:13:52 +0900 Message-ID: To: "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114f38b41bd9d40526f2eb8f Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:14:33 -0000 --001a114f38b41bd9d40526f2eb8f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 1:47 AM, Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > But following the conversation, my perception is that Fred has been trying > to drive into the draft something that nobody else is calling for or sees > as required, and in fact belongs in a separate draft. I'd like a sense of > the list on that. > One thing that's worth mentioning, I think: as I recall (I may be wrong, of course), Fred's main concern was/is not so much that the draft should make a general statement on how hosts should behave when acquiring a prefix via DHCPv6 PD. I think his concern was/is that the draft should to make a statement that it was possible to avoid DAD when using DHCPv6 PD. If the above is accurate, then we should also ask ourselves to what degree that is even possible in any v6ops document. RFC 4862 is very clear on the matter: if you assign an IPv6 address to an interface, you do DAD, unless the applicable IPv6 over-foo RFC says that DAD is disabled by default. In this draft and subsequent iterations we've tried to wordsmith the text to say that DAD can be avoided by not assigning the address to the network interface. I don't see a way to make a stronger statement than that without stepping on RFC 4862. --001a114f38b41bd9d40526f2eb8f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, Dec 16, 2015 at 1:47 AM, Fred Baker (fred) <fred@cisco.com>= wrote:
But following the conversation, m= y perception is that Fred has been trying to drive into the draft something= that nobody else is calling for or sees as required, and in fact belongs i= n a separate draft. I'd like a sense of the list on that.

One thing that's worth mentioning, I think: as I= recall (I may be wrong, of course), Fred's main concern was/is not so = much that the draft should make a general statement on how hosts should beh= ave when acquiring a prefix via DHCPv6 PD. I think his concern was/is that = the draft should to make a statement that it was possible to avoid DAD when= using DHCPv6 PD.

If the above is accurate, then w= e should also ask ourselves to what degree that is even possible in any v6o= ps document. RFC 4862 is very clear on the matter: if you assign an IPv6 ad= dress to an interface, you do DAD, unless the applicable IPv6 over-foo RFC = says that DAD is disabled by default. In this draft and subsequent iteratio= ns we've tried to wordsmith the text to say that DAD can be avoided by = not assigning the address to the network interface. I don't see a way t= o make a stronger statement than that without stepping on RFC 4862.
--001a114f38b41bd9d40526f2eb8f-- From nobody Tue Dec 15 09:17:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 558381A908D for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:17:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -114.509 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-114.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lRyYlmGPppLG for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:17:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com [173.37.86.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A75AE1A906A for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:17:47 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=4160; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1450199867; x=1451409467; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=SYtl84SnhjODGdNaV5C0nzDP9irD6MGZsqhpV23jpSQ=; b=kj/XnKj6GxlQ/W75Dn/U0et360h2dqRpBGZCjL1iAJRGEdTSCGTEzpQT p2sQuJQbmbMgND/41PVa+3SqE7zQcYN32PO2nDMkbHqawR89X8uJZxH84 A86vMwO5UR8LiPunZCoDyuQS7tiJbu8iWVZOlAXeMGV2s2XAon60clUZY U=; X-Files: signature.asc : 833 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0B/BQDgSnBW/51dJa1egm5MgT8GvWGBY?= =?us-ascii?q?4YNAoFHORMBAQEBAQEBgQqENAEBAQMBeQULAgEIBBQnBzIUEQIEDgUOiBkIvXc?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEPCYhlgm6IJoEaBZZ8AYJsgWKIeYFcklyIY?= =?us-ascii?q?QEiAUCCRIFAcoNsgQgBAQE?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,433,1444694400"; d="asc'?scan'208,217";a="59435798" Received: from rcdn-core-6.cisco.com ([173.37.93.157]) by rcdn-iport-1.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 15 Dec 2015 17:17:46 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com (xch-aln-014.cisco.com [173.36.7.24]) by rcdn-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tBFHHkDf031385 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:17:46 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-013.cisco.com (173.37.102.23) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:17:46 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-013.cisco.com ([173.37.102.23]) by XCH-RCD-013.cisco.com ([173.37.102.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:17:46 -0600 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRN1yDG731oPhHw0apvUjSAJkFVw== Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:17:46 +0000 Message-ID: <9062FE90-526C-4B6A-B31F-8BE97D1A8BF8@cisco.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.33.65] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BC5B197E-B3A9-45D4-BE27-C4386E93D1D6"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:17:49 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BC5B197E-B3A9-45D4-BE27-C4386E93D1D6 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FC5C623B-5B21-4FD7-A157-DE3418E4B68D" --Apple-Mail=_FC5C623B-5B21-4FD7-A157-DE3418E4B68D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Dec 15, 2015, at 9:13 AM, Lorenzo Colitti > wrote: >=20 > If the above is accurate, then we should also ask ourselves to what = degree that is even possible in any v6ops document. RFC 4862 is very = clear on the matter: if you assign an IPv6 address to an interface, you = do DAD, unless the applicable IPv6 over-foo RFC says that DAD is = disabled by default. In this draft and subsequent iterations we've tried = to wordsmith the text to say that DAD can be avoided by not assigning = the address to the network interface. I don't see a way to make a = stronger statement than that without stepping on RFC 4862. and I would agree that we are not scoped to update RFC 4862; that would = be 6man's job. --Apple-Mail=_FC5C623B-5B21-4FD7-A157-DE3418E4B68D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
On Dec 15, 2015, at 9:13 AM, Lorenzo Colitti = <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:

If the above is accurate, then we should also = ask ourselves to what degree that is even possible in any v6ops = document. RFC 4862 is very clear on the matter: if you assign an IPv6 = address to an interface, you do DAD, unless the applicable IPv6 over-foo = RFC says that DAD is disabled by default. In this draft and subsequent = iterations we've tried to wordsmith the text to say that DAD can be = avoided by not assigning the address to the network interface. I don't = see a way to make a stronger statement than that without stepping on RFC = 4862.

and = I would agree that we are not scoped to update RFC 4862; that would be = 6man's job.
= --Apple-Mail=_FC5C623B-5B21-4FD7-A157-DE3418E4B68D-- --Apple-Mail=_BC5B197E-B3A9-45D4-BE27-C4386E93D1D6 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIVAwUBVnBLOUayAOS/EQ8MAQLLNA//YMpTq0OALgQ/oR6hCptShVc7C3Ch6j2P uBjFO/jVNeuIolLjAL7yql2nAPZQSOj7/0EQRAFaGgQQgy6dro+TDl/2mYaqdWSg AlGaHGeO9GvVMpOa84P+a53Pomt10cY0Xp8GvADmiT3yNuYDN0FQ+pDUwxRpX2NJ pcGDNIiPrt0ehGUUxrnUReXZYX/jhln1AQb65Lgz/7/wtep+2fD4so43e5jELhKg +1ruCOfHo5cEfrlekyM2Lb1ThocOpei0H3RKZ618q6of63kFnMWOnNNxoo9But4Q XrUzJ1HXAe6u2KynrRm/Mvc1po3pRDIkH4kpl/F8n9VV1bWX3PAt15HhlhFAdjKP CGJV5AM5/oZnNunBauZpZMOKFDa2rTZ9fo5khOQM/fUFqQ4lrcjzb5lP09VXc4kQ sThj+/c0+7A/iGpMvyRTpDXtJaVSka1vjQnjENnH0tq6MngupPcM89Z9iJthL7MO lxFPf0dkyYTNqWGGSKv+6zh+TKKHNz0s9fEr4bGVm63DY+7yy9I2OVwmmPsmh/Hg ktfoofZgdNIaMlToB0AEu2P9EHD1V9Afqc/8OLZ+IVAa6EybQpzIxTgag9gsNpy6 YLYG/U823oj0dpeOaJJ0rKZ6oi9lCPm0UuUGsN+6XFHQ9o7TccgY6Ds1CyqvvnPL HigRz8VYgpo= =fstQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_BC5B197E-B3A9-45D4-BE27-C4386E93D1D6-- From nobody Tue Dec 15 09:33:09 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F8151A9105 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:33:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lq9yTNH7wGzJ for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:33:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-he.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:470:d16a:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFA601A90B9 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:33:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #91) id m1a8tTE-0000EhC; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 18:33:04 +0100 Message-Id: To: "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:47:57 +0000 ." Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 18:33:02 +0100 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:33:08 -0000 >(4) there is a fourth outcome that needs to >happen. In the fourth case, please tell me what that would be. Re-reading the draft, my first thought was to cut out the operational experience as it relates to DHCPv6 PD. I.e., it is a good idea to have multiple addresses, one way of doing that is using DHCPv6 PD, but we don't really know how. Then I noticed (and somehow I didn't notice before) that this is a BCP. So now I wonder, do we have large scale experience with all 3 proposed mechanisms? I know PD is used a lot for CPEs but for hosts I have never seen it. Samething goes for hosts requesting multiple addresses using DHCPv6 IA_NA. If there is no experience, maybe re-classify as informational? From nobody Tue Dec 15 09:36:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10FAF1A6F9D for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:36:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sk5iXbq2cFpt for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs-m.tc.umn.edu (vs-m.tc.umn.edu [134.84.119.120]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B22741A9125 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:36:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f178.google.com (mail-ig0-f178.google.com [209.85.213.178]) by vs-m.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:36:02 -0600 (CST) X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] mail-ig0-f178.google.com [209.85.213.178] #+LO+TS+TR X-Umn-Classification: local Received: by mail-ig0-f178.google.com with SMTP id to4so35906430igc.0 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:36:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=umn.edu; s=google; h=reply-to:subject:references:to:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Of60GCbQPZcMtYpIJIjq+5g9pBbHiEetDUIlisMxUjg=; b=V98C/+jmtNLlPxzbsOmiqr6wB0no+VVSlZIXjcwzGgd9JA8vKEk4zGbRMl5jAQ17dm B2qGO/vMPXEl5CcB1GIZ2xGrslCZxuJuj2D0Fqqiwhaqa7UC4K//xZaSWv+pIoOGg6xY d4ps2EzBRCL6YZIBgAktWshCSCDh7blGP/LGo= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:reply-to:subject:references:to:cc:from :organization:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Of60GCbQPZcMtYpIJIjq+5g9pBbHiEetDUIlisMxUjg=; b=VwwZtWGM/Rw20TTbzuyaSbSH7pp+FCNbFXyE85eTTeaGBXhHgoswGEM9wThWzdbpLA 7CBm8v3sU1J8SBM4qCCmS5mxHmU1kFCnTrq6RhGPIeVjsrW2YOdoXAL9MGaK7QGon2Ky jhz+3EJe4U61s1hjj/ovfEGTJjV7ccQDsobxnwP0WY9klGytVXG6WFVwyDEZIzZU/1Vc hVN8/NoETzffq2GsLFXTMw4YsiY8PukIP+vd4NiHskdLn0qG+fprt7hhMx1Mv7/n9aOK J0Z7dfqYBpKvWBmWlMhmBrXwg50QrmeJ5lC3CbGI2/Y8dx54AtOnJ2AXAP5KfH4gfb4X XpfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnGP6/Hrg1fnkR1cz/DP4/DFiV25in1ToKwp+jBHiKRXpmnqIrHWej2FBge5nfmN+rDQGYv1YKLYb8+Ih5t485w7mRBP7Oh2TkPgSBbR3oZe0XdPAAzEScGBkThmrItgeAcYH7l9+H4oxgB/JR8RR/tGcMzVA== X-Received: by 10.50.93.42 with SMTP id cr10mr4820693igb.41.1450200962116; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:36:02 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.50.93.42 with SMTP id cr10mr4820680igb.41.1450200961958; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:36:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from x-10-104-140-37.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu ([2607:ea00:107:2001:b4b8:b6de:e8c8:e785]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ii1sm1377187igb.11.2015.12.15.09.35.59 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:36:00 -0800 (PST) References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <9062FE90-526C-4B6A-B31F-8BE97D1A8BF8@cisco.com> To: "Fred Baker (fred)" , Lorenzo Colitti From: David Farmer Organization: University of Minnesota Message-ID: <56704F7E.1020208@umn.edu> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:35:58 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <9062FE90-526C-4B6A-B31F-8BE97D1A8BF8@cisco.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: David Farmer List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:36:12 -0000 On 12/15/15 11:17 , Fred Baker (fred) wrote: > >> On Dec 15, 2015, at 9:13 AM, Lorenzo Colitti > > wrote: >> >> If the above is accurate, then we should also ask ourselves to what >> degree that is even possible in any v6ops document. RFC 4862 is very >> clear on the matter: if you assign an IPv6 address to an interface, >> you do DAD, unless the applicable IPv6 over-foo RFC says that DAD is >> disabled by default. In this draft and subsequent iterations we've >> tried to wordsmith the text to say that DAD can be avoided by not >> assigning the address to the network interface. I don't see a way to >> make a stronger statement than that without stepping on RFC 4862. > > and I would agree that we are not scoped to update RFC 4862; that would > be 6man's job. And even if an update to RFC 4862 were in v6ops preview it's not the intent of this document. -- ================================================ David Farmer Email: farmer@umn.edu Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 1-612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 1-612-812-9952 ================================================ From nobody Tue Dec 15 09:57:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2590F1A9132 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:57:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mpc4YCa4196j for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:57:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs-m.tc.umn.edu (vs-m.tc.umn.edu [134.84.119.120]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48E191A9150 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:57:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f178.google.com (mail-ig0-f178.google.com [209.85.213.178]) by vs-m.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:57:38 -0600 (CST) X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] mail-ig0-f178.google.com [209.85.213.178] #+LO+TS+TR X-Umn-Classification: local Received: by mail-ig0-f178.google.com with SMTP id to4so36382674igc.0 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:57:38 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=umn.edu; s=google; h=reply-to:subject:references:to:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=uHA8o32QJFt6EgUZg+N2c3BRy9KX1MDMC3XENCsgPko=; b=QrD0iFcr0nKHiDSJlCKYuZQxH7po/h4gFBEOScgjIl0p3q2mMayhtZ37vlhTik+3Lp sxFaOrkXpPMTYO9Bq9FA0krzD5YNKJ9H11Kh5J/RNIibXDkM0TxHl5KhfwOOE55trfBW BKaQ/wgHJISrWhLmpVOLonZsUeiirDDFKXdh0= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:reply-to:subject:references:to:cc:from :organization:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=uHA8o32QJFt6EgUZg+N2c3BRy9KX1MDMC3XENCsgPko=; b=UuUxq1e+8cERasLy7D3qZ1lx28Znmy92DB55huga9gmx8sO1UuYzEXB2g898QW9A0r bdsEodJn80f3dvSK9XQkkaguJbemHHwDYLtCEouj2D7q5r2pXKO5ZwQkXq2Z8MCJQoJW uYkPL1NffsGTGxcomkFvsU2PFN+fzCN46gH5iUv04sxE820UYkc8iPdehU/PIX2ggW46 lxdzR8f7iCH0hqojLJBC0wS9dLjuprGrsNYQzDkiHJaYVVM1KCS/jl9PWiYaQxa84jMe tPtsnApU9UkBaj6FzKyxaA0+g7OGJr/gK+EaiQ45/vEL58Ht+yo7RHzxNNDvnXLVHBdn D30w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmCHzPN1oaSjDaTW/pKW5aRU0ssc8BmXor8zMMLjXlupDDsMsSIHKV1z0/vambyARf2RiSFGGpZdv/g97ECk9BxZ9wcsMjuv46tuUDvRrrWzht6uJvTCElMOAocCAfmG/JiI7ym+wyEsadQTTaKnvUpb56STg== X-Received: by 10.50.23.110 with SMTP id l14mr5481443igf.69.1450202257858; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:57:37 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.50.23.110 with SMTP id l14mr5481433igf.69.1450202257737; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:57:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from x-10-104-140-37.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu (x-131-212-248-170.uofm-secure.wireless.umn.edu. [131.212.248.170]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o86sm1409747ioi.36.2015.12.15.09.57.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 15 Dec 2015 09:57:36 -0800 (PST) References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> To: Lorenzo Colitti , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" From: David Farmer Organization: University of Minnesota Message-ID: <5670548F.4020906@umn.edu> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:57:35 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: David Farmer List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:57:44 -0000 On 12/15/15 11:13 , Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 1:47 AM, Fred Baker (fred) > wrote: > > But following the conversation, my perception is that Fred has been > trying to drive into the draft something that nobody else is calling > for or sees as required, and in fact belongs in a separate draft. > I'd like a sense of the list on that. > > > One thing that's worth mentioning, I think: as I recall (I may be wrong, > of course), Fred's main concern was/is not so much that the draft should > make a general statement on how hosts should behave when acquiring a > prefix via DHCPv6 PD. I think his concern was/is that the draft should > to make a statement that it was possible to avoid DAD when using DHCPv6 PD. This has been my impression too. -- ================================================ David Farmer Email: farmer@umn.edu Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 1-612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 1-612-812-9952 ================================================ From nobody Tue Dec 15 11:33:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AA781ACCF9 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:33:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jdEtK-27uNIE for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:33:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pa0-x22b.google.com (mail-pa0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c03::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D63B31ACCF0 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:33:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pa0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id tl7so1327970pab.3 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:33:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+AwbY9z6nXBDQ0G2RQuSzxZNhHJPE/DkHjCRfCuwfKw=; b=vTiavZKVp/oES2/Eg1/gxD6vcYR5SrExxuJ1O6uyAQ2l2BBsID4jEHopdYndgTLlq0 1Ow5/nx3yygG2iOIif66mCVCDLvl92pPk2ckryjW6wy017ABmdbgMJ6QNvlYA368hc4y NizQg6fQEXtFuv/dkxS79WJnnbBUFUwXWJmrmCnsZbyCHqd64MuKw3adCvgQvG9FKb8z fM1ubKcbVJTGfSlTnGEdjSW8DerLlaahOChbjex0bohz5T6E60mUdksRcr2mVHoUxAWQ gXgzLXRFJjbFH1wUMG2kZTUlLDvDM2VNcl1eV3HiiCKaJzpsKYvDKUjlaHSGi/tQWGSK yKzQ== X-Received: by 10.66.90.166 with SMTP id bx6mr48824952pab.75.1450208025537; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:33:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:7554:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:7554:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m70sm3867032pfi.65.2015.12.15.11.33.42 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:33:44 -0800 (PST) To: "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <56706B19.4050109@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 08:33:45 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:33:47 -0000 (2) Lorenzo's proposed clarifications make the draft represent [my] view And I am very comfortable with it as a BCP. Regards Brian Carpenter From nobody Tue Dec 15 11:40:43 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 269B01ACD0F for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:40:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.978 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.978 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id apxhmSL-8eic for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:40:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-x236.google.com (mail-ig0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 03BA01A911F for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:40:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ig0-x236.google.com with SMTP id to18so21897809igc.0 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:40:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject :from:to:cc:content-type; bh=Wd4+Uxy+mACK+ORUMD+0PhSXYs113jlnF9bVqe0NAaI=; b=RvAm81dva42zRxjGx7Y3b0jPToVDiK7s1lqhZY8DCdGNqYKIjM43RCDnLXjSZX/1Nc P1ZtLavBRN9HKI7fhukGdhIA3dAcqmw+EEbbt/iBmmNJ4zFMPvlpvy8yfiJ+tjz354gg kRucMZkSrPxtgJ0ohzNq2s9jvVruosIaytkZwQL2jXkIgab6Np9OcisNwlWtIaUsAQzx ETcnS4KqqceFQ/wrULUQg2pNv6fi40ALsLTGNpJyljYAGcH/TrQlZMMUD6VdXxP2W4xu dMoM8IVhwTd3uYfr17ZopfPfQ5lO729/tbsPC9RxZE1VEB5UIBl77G0NkiTxCVOXn+q0 GaDg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.50.155.33 with SMTP id vt1mr5579227igb.64.1450208440486; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:40:40 -0800 (PST) Sender: jinmei.tatuya@gmail.com Received: by 10.107.47.217 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:40:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 11:40:40 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: rO0mNvkW8w4IefSF0RVYH16sfyU Message-ID: From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= To: "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 19:40:42 -0000 At Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:47:57 +0000, "Fred Baker (fred)" wrote: > I'll give you four options: (1) the draft is fine as it stands, (2) > Lorenzo's proposed clarifications make the draft represent your There were several revisions of "clarifications", and the difference might matter in answering your question. Specifically which revision of the clarification(s) are you referring to? > view, (3) the DHCP-PD consideration Fred is driving needs to be more > thoroughly addressed, or (4) there is a fourth outcome that needs to > happen. In the fourth case, please tell me what that would > be. Please comment to v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org, and I'll report > the outcome as it is in my inbox ~24 hours hence. -- JINMEI, Tatuya From nobody Tue Dec 15 14:16:19 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C4B71B2C02 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:16:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vymepeiaxLPD for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 63DA41B2BFB for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:16:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBFMGFuV064748; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:16:15 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-202.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-blv-202.nw.nos.boeing.com [10.57.37.69]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBFMGAFE064700 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:16:11 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-BLV-202.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.2.48]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:16:10 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) Thread-Index: AQHRN00DOHF+C6ARYEKsq/dzs+bfBp7Mmn4A Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 22:16:09 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF5A@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 22:16:18 -0000 Hi Philip, > -----Original Message----- > From: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com [mailto:pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com] = On Behalf Of Philip Homburg > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 7:27 AM > To: v6ops@ietf.org; Templin, Fred L > Cc: Fred Baker (fred) > Subject: DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availabilit= y) >=20 > (I changed the subject to reflect that this is about DHCPv6 PD) >=20 > >> It seems to me that the only sensible model for PD is that any node > >> receiving a prefix is a router. > > > >I think we agreed before that the node must present the outward appearan= ce > >of a router, yes. But, internally, applications are presented with the a= ppe=3D > >arance > >of an ordinary host. >=20 > It seems to me that we (the IETF) should mostly focus on outward appearan= ce. > In general, we do not defined host interfaces, just concepts. RFC4861 talks about host interfaces, and several varieties of IPv6-over-(fo= o) documents also talk about host interfaces. > There are a few exceptions, but for example the socket interface was neve= r > extended to support happy eyeballs. And there is a lot of networking > related APIs that are defined outside the IETF. >=20 > Of course, we should also avoid specifying behavior that is incompatible = with > the socket API. >=20 > >> As discussed earlier, for redirection to work, the receiving node has = to > >> be a router for the purposes for ND. > > > >From an external appearance, yes. > > > >> If we declare the node to be a router then the whole strong vs weak en= d s=3D > >ystem > >> discussion goes away. > > > >From an internal appearance, maybe not. If the interface over which the > >delegated prefix is received is the same interface to which addresses fr= om > >the delegated prefix are assigned, then to applications it looks just li= ke > >an > >ordinary host. The AERO interface does just that, and we are now explori= ng > >whether the same would apply to other interface types. >=20 > By and large, the socket API doesn't really deal with interfaces. Most > applications written using the socket API don't deal with interfaces > at all. A counter-example would be pinging a link-local address. > So from an internal appearance, where an address is assigned is mostly > irrelevant. Though of course externally visible behavior will be visible > to the application as well. >=20 > For example, in an (overly) strong ES model, if you assign an address to = the > loopback interface, packets with that address as the source address > will never leave the host. >=20 > To me, the externally visible difference between strong and weak ES, is t= hat > in strong ES, a packet will always depart from the interface to which the > address is assigned. So if a host is found to originate packets with > source address that do not belong to the local subnet, then the host like= ly > uses the weak ES model (or is broken in some way). >=20 > >> I don't think there is any downside. In my opinion, hosts should not a= ssign > >> addresses to internal interfaces and then use them on other interfaces= . > >> If a router does that then the situation is completely clear. Being a = router > >> doesn't seem to impose unreasonable requirements. > > > >This is strong/weak ES consideration, where you seem to be implying that > >strong ES is more "host-like". But, we are wondering if this makes a > >difference to applications - will some applications prefer to run on > >one ES model vs. the other? >=20 > In the past I did write a stack that had strong ES built in even when the > node was a router. That's just not recommended. >=20 > Though for a multi-homed host (that is not a router) I certainly prefer > the strong ES model. >=20 > So for me, saying that a node that receives a prefix using PD has to beha= ve > like a router, essentially implies weak ES. And of course that will be > visible to applications. The host can display strong ES characteristics if it assigns addresses to the interface over which the prefix delegation is received. This works if the link over which the PD is received is link-local-only and DAD is disabled. This is exactly the case for AERO interfaces, and may apply to other interface types such as NBMA in general. > Though as I said before, applications written using the socket API are > generally not aware that there are different interfaces. >=20 > >> But maybe it is best to wait for things to go wrong because the obviou= s > >> fix would involve changing ND. And I'm sure nobody would want to do th= at > >> at this time. > > > >I don't see any problems at this time. Well OK; there is one problem. Ro= ute=3D > >rs > >are not supposed to send Redirects to other routers. Which means that, w= ith > >standard ND, the PD hosts would always use the dogleg path through their > >default router to talk to other nodes on the link. AERO fixes this by al= lowing > >router-to-router redirects. This is already specified in RFC6706 but upd= ated > >by AERO(bis). >=20 > That's certainly one interesting case. >=20 > I was thinking about a more serious problem. Assume two routers > connected to a single link. A node on that link requests a prefix using > DHCPv6 PD. Both routers run a DHCPv6 relay. >=20 > Absent additional specifications, only one router will install a static > route. Obviously, if the router reboots it has to restore all static > routes. Normally, a DHCP relays doesn't maintain state, so that's new. >=20 > Now, what happens if the router that has the static route goes down? > How does the other router take over? Nodes that received prefix delegations from the router will notice that it has crashed and will request a prefix delegation from another router. If they receive the same prefix as they were using from the first router, then there is no need for renumbering. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com >=20 From nobody Tue Dec 15 14:24:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4A931B2C24; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:24:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HkhvbT0tluPS; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:24:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC53D1B2C1A; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:24:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBFMOFKR057490; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:24:15 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-404.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-blv-404.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.157]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBFMOCwu057459 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:24:12 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-BLV-404.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.69]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 14:24:11 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRM14kKZlCFjAH9ESehHqsgR6qp57EY3SQgACQlAD//3tX8IACHFYqgAU3TID//7GdoIAAjdeA//96OaAAJ+moAAACwN2g Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 22:24:11 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF7F@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF7FXCHBLV504nwnosb_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 22:24:19 -0000 --_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF7FXCHBLV504nwnosb_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGkgTG9yZW56bywNCg0KTGV0IG1lIHByZXNlbnQgbXkgcHJvcG9zZWQgcmUtd29yZCBhZ2FpbjoN Cg0KICDigJxBbHNvLCBhIERIQ1B2NiBQRCBtb2RlbCB3aXRoIGEgZGVkaWNhdGVkIC82NCBwZXIg aG9zdCBtYWtlcyBpdA0KICAgcG9zc2libGUgZm9yIHRoZSBob3N0IHRvIGFzc2lnbiB0aGVtIHRv IGFuIGludGVybmFsIGludGVyZmFjZSBzdWNoIGFzDQogICBhIGxvb3BiYWNrIGludGVyZmFjZS4g IFRoaXMgb2J2aWF0ZXMgdGhlIG5lZWQgdG8gIHBlcmZvcm0gTmVpZ2hib3VyDQogICBEaXNjb3Zl cnkgYW5kIER1cGxpY2F0ZSBBZGRyZXNzIERldGVjdGlvbiBvbiBpdHMgbmV0d29yayBpbnRlcmZh Y2UNCiAgIGZvciBhbnl0aGluZyBvdGhlciB0aGFuIHRoZSBsaW5rLWxvY2FsIGFkZHJlc3MgIG5l dHdvcmsgaW50ZXJmYWNlLA0KICAgcmVkdWNpbmcgbmV0d29yayB0cmFmZmljLuKAnQ0KDQpXaGVy ZSBpbiB0aGlzIHRleHQgZG9lcyBpdCBzYXkgdGhhdCBhZGRyZXNzZXMgZnJvbSB0aGUgUEQgY291 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HTTP; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 15:34:21 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF7F@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF7F@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Erik Kline Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 08:34:21 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Templin, Fred L" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "internet-drafts@ietf.org" , =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Dec 2015 23:34:47 -0000 I'm not sure I can tell the substantive difference between these last two versions (save the strangling "network interface" phrase toward the end of the last sentence). Lorenzo's version reads to me as being a bit more of an example, and Fred's last version as ever so slightly prescriptive by comparison, but I could easily put that down to some weirdness of my own brain. However, both those paragraphs assume the network interface /only/ has link-local addresses, which need not be true. I really hate to perpetuate this bikeshed, but here goes. Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it possible for the host to assign addresses from this prefix not to its network interface directly but instead to an internal interface, such as a loopback interface. This obviates the need to perform Neighbo= ur Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection on its network interface for these addresses, reducing network traffic. Apologies, -ek On 16 December 2015 at 07:24, Templin, Fred L w= rote: > Hi Lorenzo, > > > > Let me present my proposed re-word again: > > > > =E2=80=9CAlso, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > > possible for the host to assign them to an internal interface such as > > a loopback interface. This obviates the need to perform Neighbour > > Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection on its network interface > > for anything other than the link-local address network interface, > > reducing network traffic.=E2=80=9D > > > > Where in this text does it say that addresses from the PD could be > > assigned to the network interface? Nowhere that I can see. And, > > from the discussions it seems clear that we don=E2=80=99t fully understan= d > > the conditions under which an address could be assigned to the > > network interface for all varieties of network interfaces. In cases > > where something is not fully understood IETF documents typically > > remain silent, and I think this document should do the same. > > > > Thanks =E2=80=93 Fred > > fred.l.templin@boeing.com > > > > > > From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com] > Sent: Tuesday, December 15, 2015 7:36 AM > To: Templin, Fred L > Cc: =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89; v6ops@ietf.org; internet-drafts= @ietf.org > > > Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt > > > > Fred, > > > > the problem is as follows. > > > > If the host assigns the addresses to its external network interface and d= oes > not do DAD, then it is a violation of RFC 4862, period. The text is very > clear: > > > > nodes run a "duplicate address detection" algorithm on > > addresses before assigning them to an interface. The Duplicate > > Address Detection algorithm is performed on all addresses > > > > Therefore, in order to say that DAD is not necessary on the external netw= ork > interface, our document must say that the addresses are not assigned to t= hat > interface. Otherwise we are recommending a violation of, or a change to, = RFC > 4862, and that is beyond the remit of this working group. > > > > Let me suggest (almost identical) text again: > > > > Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > > possible for the host not to assign addresses directly to its network > > interface, but instead to assign them to an internal interface such as > > a loopback interface. This obviates the need to perform Neighbour > > Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection on its network interface > > for anything other than the link-local address, reducing network traff= ic. > > > > Are you saying that you don't want this text to say that the addresses ar= e > not assigned to the network interface? But if the addresses *are* assigne= d > to the network interface, that's a violation of RFC 4862. Is that what > you're recommending? > > > > Cheers, > > Lorenzo > > > > On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 12:16 AM, Templin, Fred L > wrote: > > Hi Lorenzo, > > > > Almost. What would make me happier is if we could drop the phrase > > beginning: =E2=80=9Cnot to assign global IPv6 addresses=E2=80=9D in the f= irst sentence > > so that we would have: > > > > =E2=80=9CAlso, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > > possible for the host to assign them to an internal interface such as > > a loopback interface. This obviates the need to perform Neighbour > > Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection on its network interface > > for anything other than the link-local address network interface, > > reducing network traffic.=E2=80=9D > > > > Does this work for you? > > > > Thanks - Fred > > > > From: Lorenzo Colitti [mailto:lorenzo@google.com] > Sent: Monday, December 14, 2015 8:32 PM > To: Templin, Fred L > Cc: =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89; v6ops@ietf.org; internet-drafts= @ietf.org; i-d-announce@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: > draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt > > > > On Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 1:08 PM, Templin, Fred L > wrote: > > I see what you are getting at, but one thing that has been gnawing at me > > regarding this and the previous sentence is the use of the term =E2=80=9C= physical > > network interface=E2=80=9D. For example, the interface the DHCPv6 PD was = received > > on could be a virtual interface. I think I know what you are trying to sa= y, > > but is there a different term that could be used instead of =E2=80=9Cphys= ical=E2=80=9D? > > > > What if we just removed the word "physical", like so? > > > > Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > > possible for the host not to assign global IPv6 addresses directly to > > its network interface, but instead to assign them to an internal > > interface such as a loopback interface. This obviates the need to > > perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection > > on its network interface for anything other than the link-local addres= s > > network interface, reducing network traffic. > > > > Cheers, > > Lorenzo > > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Tue Dec 15 17:25:34 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 80DB01A026A for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:25:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ypKxna1Y7Xxv for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x229.google.com (mail-qk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5CE461A014C for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:25:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x229.google.com with SMTP id u65so23450675qkh.2 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:25:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=7lz2Lc74Q7EKHOaC286EXmXUhNQ1zlg5LmOmGUtaYdk=; b=SFNwWkN4etZrPA+bQU3nqntZXKTzqtV4FECNb9ZeFUhFoBuuZg/xSQ0t07WmAWbO5f lDSuk6syWMbLgr1bP1OFiL48NkyAA/Hgi0+VEGVXNYZOQv0EbZmN4g/MiPUAHidOfcBP yf9lMzDUHa/iiPzYEACkDIUBCv5qZJxECHNOY8R81EizR6H6MtHdTRbzPZ6V8k9Q0tKg mydZem+a8gVT0JC7LX/YRzMrPwsdSxaDa5Ktx7k6bQOxh+1/oMxMl3palI7OfRyarZoE Yc4ttab2sJUeM/KNAxdksXELJBsY4kTL/38Nsd0IQ+UUBp3b2Pt1g/M2yUik4Eslb1/6 SYuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=7lz2Lc74Q7EKHOaC286EXmXUhNQ1zlg5LmOmGUtaYdk=; b=DNOqQFPa4eec+yiYLyLe6LmriFpOcVJyFQ1gAUULVcpKjcxfhVl7zQZ+uxjX+732wI d9Y6rz47P6y2elrkJtxuFMSntC7fvORmDyZYdars1fHsKnHlxk/9/RVgPvJShqUqEETH BNpjwUgtdICk1eTf82Js7JyQh2FZ5ylYfsCbK0zT6+9Fd0IvyD+VFEBLUEltyCwno9ij fkxHpqkBj/NFR1xGrXzIFRu1NkrClNH5X1xAM1kP3qiYiFmy1wmrUQzzYEZTROqQbhRy 4lxp7mjZvnk5vkZhj7rSoHG6Fnete3t2FYMEfjv5sk51sfsh25J8UlupyTSnqPhOPeYv QURQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQksXVcxMcVm3XhTzLwW8Jq+t3r8kuqKmOZcmGbfPLsAUhNPaL4IugNRbttpcESQdy/t4Vgd1dtTAKxqC9KnSapshifr5doki+3YxZJpYoRLfj8y3eI= X-Received: by 10.13.238.194 with SMTP id x185mr25431355ywe.35.1450229131306; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:25:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:25:11 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF7F@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:25:11 +0900 Message-ID: To: Erik Kline Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c03109437612c0526f9c854 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 01:25:33 -0000 --94eb2c03109437612c0526f9c854 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 8:34 AM, Erik Kline wrote: > However, both those paragraphs assume the network interface /only/ has > link-local addresses, which need not be true. I really hate to > perpetuate this bikeshed, but here goes. > > Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > possible for the host to assign addresses from this prefix not to its > network interface directly but instead to an internal interface, > such as a loopback interface. This obviates the need to perform > Neighbour > Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection on its network interface for > these addresses, reducing network traffic. > That text works for me. Fred, does it work for you? If not, can you explain why it does not work? If you have a problem with the words "not to its network interface directly but instead", then can you explain why those words are a problem? It seems to me that *any* behaviour that is compliant with RFC 4862 must comply with those words as well, and thus, there should not be a problem including those words unless we want to prescribe/condone behaviour that violates RFC 4862. --94eb2c03109437612c0526f9c854 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, Dec 16, 2015 at 8:34 AM, Erik Kline <ek@google.com> wrote:
However, both those pa= ragraphs assume the network interface /only/ has
link-local addresses, which need not be true.=C2=A0 I really hate to
perpetuate this bikeshed, but here goes.

=C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it=
=C2=A0 =C2=A0possible for the host to assign addresses from this pre= fix not to its
=C2=A0 =C2=A0network interface directly but instead to an internal interfac= e,
=C2=A0 =C2=A0such as a loopback interface.=C2=A0 This obvi= ates the need to perform Neighbour
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection on its network inter= face for
=C2=A0 =C2=A0these addresses, reducing network traffic.

That text works for me. Fred, does it work for you?= If not, can you explain why it does not work?

If = you have a problem with the words "not to its network interface direct= ly but instead", then can you explain why those words are a problem? I= t seems to me that *any* behaviour that is compliant with RFC 4862 must com= ply with those words as well, and thus, there should not be a problem inclu= ding those words unless we want to prescribe/condone behaviour that violate= s RFC 4862.
--94eb2c03109437612c0526f9c854-- From nobody Tue Dec 15 17:57:29 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3521F1A1A64 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:57:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VD-ke3B4vN4X for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x231.google.com (mail-qk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E4101A1A55 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id u65so24316541qkh.2 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:57:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=HsVWp5JNTJoh4SAA5lbFOjOwPDERlnUgi1sGFGaY0Zo=; b=WqYo1aMN07nk9UyM1oyvkBQEEJBSnp74jPLkATgEt0+nIQD3NpwdFSzYNnY/V/LZll 2aW3r+czMdc30DEbNntEH1qQ2Gapya+e/GH2CjQN9AECk6CLHu0sFReZk5Uc560xAmkq aCmJmKxzT1nf5K/nNjGdjRECFHkqT0HlitEsUefVh91VUQoPLRCncq1pEBQtxUo+S+4l r+PLmAPqTAEZiEaFdVmTzh0nhm/VFwKrtRl4DigE5N54R3N83LlIIvWyqg+6ulk61hEs H6B5D17f3YCojFhdmXCoE3a4JFPOKdPf2vgiuXjejyUC1jV1+BPzVz4hdEzJuWpLdijI Cxhg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=HsVWp5JNTJoh4SAA5lbFOjOwPDERlnUgi1sGFGaY0Zo=; b=GvsKDHUWe/AGGb84MxGUOXVz8Hr5EVDwfDFRQM6AyIdRNkMTYAAEJsyVq+rUyrx647 2r7UfcnfACDgmeLVQGBMZIK3G7DlwAtDEdeGFX3+LhRzpLHS1X3M3CzSBiJfylIRfInq rQ/J6AdIfAXA7kD1k0yexmWouEN5lLsDVQGnf4faJYX4UXujkRU9ovsp9Dw4viqqbn4S 9u3fGFTM/Zc1AqYmnkkdFfFuNBUS/lEg+dwy6Jnj8q6TD2Z7aEpmnXbRxPGCdM/1vO9u Cdh6HmESuwcpKZew2IWUuGWfQAWBDKTNHnQ0Rp9Bz/bJ+HNlSXPcTywwx7NRYgZhYrUS 8GBA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmDuOJxnCXofp8B9aZJS1Ttxm/oM7KpNNYXx8nYdoUJkiwr5YToPv5HJk3KaI3UwXMkb2xiVG2vPRV9yVLwq7HEs2dsC0lVNbTtu+UCPXz/Q8UVARo= X-Received: by 10.129.153.198 with SMTP id q189mr25023809ywg.337.1450231046171; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:57:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 17:57:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:57:06 +0900 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0b731659e7560526fa3a6e Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 01:57:28 -0000 --94eb2c0b731659e7560526fa3a6e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 2:33 AM, Philip Homburg wrote: > >(4) there is a fourth outcome that needs to > >happen. In the fourth case, please tell me what that would be. > > Re-reading the draft, my first thought was to cut out the operational > experience as it relates to DHCPv6 PD. I.e., it is a good idea to > have multiple addresses, one way of doing that is using DHCPv6 PD, but > we don't really know how. > Actually, I think we do know how. Remember that what is in scope for this draft is what networks provide to hosts, and how. There is plenty of operational experience on using DHCPv6 PD to assign address space - every IPv6 CPE router on the planet does it. You may be correct that there are doubts on what *hosts* should do when delegated a block of addresses via DHCPv6 PD, but host behaviour is not really in scope for this draft. --94eb2c0b731659e7560526fa3a6e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, Dec 16, 2015 at 2:33 AM, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-4@u-1.ph= icoh.com> wrote:
>(4) there is a fourth outcome that needs to
>happen. In the fourth case, please tell me what that would be.

Re-reading the draft, my first thought was to cut out the operationa= l
experience as it relates to DHCPv6 PD. I.e., it is a good idea to
have multiple addresses, one way of doing that is using DHCPv6 PD, but
we don't really know how.

Actually,= I think we do know how. Remember that what is in scope for this draft is w= hat networks provide to hosts, and how. There is plenty of operational expe= rience on using DHCPv6 PD to assign address space - every IPv6 CPE router o= n the planet does it.

You may be correct that ther= e are doubts on what *hosts* should do when delegated a block of addresses = via DHCPv6 PD, but host behaviour is not really in scope for this draft.
--94eb2c0b731659e7560526fa3a6e-- From nobody Tue Dec 15 21:57:45 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F17F1A875D for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:57:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -114.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-114.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yD_FP0GrorDD for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:57:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-7.cisco.com (alln-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.142.94]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF4A11A8741 for ; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 21:57:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=2247; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1450245461; x=1451455061; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=uj5DGjAW5On54Mm+EU/fOKt/Zreegg6KNoR8luiXM+E=; b=Dcn2wskAxZ0gyr7EE/uuQOfYLK1C3GMmd33kn9Y5V4fMnP4Y+GMQwSZm +TP+pIBGP9znyn9uuiuWKJyjj2RiFN4hzPsUGjfZ+V/Vv3dIMyjvpDmay /8feP/a1BeL3x4d/7727c+UREkKZ6RcXW0U5BYlRlFtC180EkmHxyO6wo w=; X-Files: signature.asc : 833 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0DZAgAR/HBW/4oNJK1egzqBPwauQY8XD?= =?us-ascii?q?oFjhg0CgTg4FAEBAQEBAQGBCoQ0AQEBAwEjVgULAgEGAhgqAgIyJQIEDgUOiBk?= =?us-ascii?q?IjjudNpF+AQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBDwmIZYJuhDODRC+BGgEElnwBg?= =?us-ascii?q?myBYoh5gVyERZMFg3MBHwFDgkSBQHKDMjqBCAEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.20,436,1444694400"; d="asc'?scan'208";a="218579676" Received: from alln-core-5.cisco.com ([173.36.13.138]) by alln-iport-7.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 16 Dec 2015 05:57:40 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com (xch-aln-014.cisco.com [173.36.7.24]) by alln-core-5.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id tBG5ve3b020228 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Wed, 16 Dec 2015 05:57:40 GMT Received: from xch-rcd-013.cisco.com (173.37.102.23) by XCH-ALN-014.cisco.com (173.36.7.24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1104.5; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 23:57:40 -0600 Received: from xch-rcd-013.cisco.com ([173.37.102.23]) by XCH-RCD-013.cisco.com ([173.37.102.23]) with mapi id 15.00.1104.009; Tue, 15 Dec 2015 23:57:40 -0600 From: "Fred Baker (fred)" To: =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRN8asj63ZWYoIG0KX13ExglMXzw== Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 05:57:39 +0000 Message-ID: <07A77D06-4830-401E-A555-59DDD18FF0F3@cisco.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.24.66.95] Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8BAEC02D-82E2-4CCF-A43E-1B8D34959665"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 05:57:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8BAEC02D-82E2-4CCF-A43E-1B8D34959665 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 The latest > On Dec 15, 2015, at 11:40 AM, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 = wrote: >=20 > At Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:47:57 +0000, > "Fred Baker (fred)" wrote: >=20 >> I'll give you four options: (1) the draft is fine as it stands, (2) >> Lorenzo's proposed clarifications make the draft represent your >=20 > There were several revisions of "clarifications", and the difference > might matter in answering your question. Specifically which revision > of the clarification(s) are you referring to? >=20 >> view, (3) the DHCP-PD consideration Fred is driving needs to be more >> thoroughly addressed, or (4) there is a fourth outcome that needs to >> happen. In the fourth case, please tell me what that would >> be. Please comment to v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org, and I'll report >> the outcome as it is in my inbox ~24 hours hence. >=20 > -- > JINMEI, Tatuya --Apple-Mail=_8BAEC02D-82E2-4CCF-A43E-1B8D34959665 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iQIVAwUBVnD9VkayAOS/EQ8MAQJ0FA//d9n1jobN65USOHPGR6ZVRB4UsrNkdkCC 3R8UA0GX7RBI+25FfvNYVKN8ohPKNtd8IcbXCSdehYmJ5McdmUL5x72n/yKhR1xQ 5J9Q4rzKhJVLdHETJcA5vRY5EMYILmqIlie23KsXNoRJ4Zff2tbXDqxptfPP7CUa ty2VA0ZuUhSIA5eGiLdd42IbNwbHqRMI19wIx/wU8zC2UNK9i51eJQYn7Q+LiLm5 ekou20boZXhwWg41oS+5XvThCjtWxCIM972DU4PhfinkOFKhlllhu5VDvTOuHAkQ jbXyEnZiF84eMmRH2wqTHm2d1F+ZOe+Ji7DyL6zgNBoap7AfUEvRK+b5ifWVMXaZ UpeIMyc70LtU0/Uh8iz1W1Mi2PhXcCDIjFAzuc6dSUqxhhD4bwRW/GxOdxcbuDM0 /tO2MiqrPIVCYMgEiRdogc5fqiiFnsVWsM3nd/tija4Uw18sOHyim1xouiit1x20 1ndwVnRUTpk9Smb56yr3/a3PYUoXsuEjUtZI1UkOC0Oa6eCRpPB17FzQhv24IVmT R9ljevMxeS7jT/oRvoSbcs7VRp03Y5Z/6Hfw0JiETzBy3t+KqBvaa1XG1ZOx4UPq 5dOi8iGdtDrpqC5oqvHonh3pHdGozqetiHVam8pDN8SsmbzG6HJSDevRaM2FDbQJ LMcx6Y8g5YQ= =uQQF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_8BAEC02D-82E2-4CCF-A43E-1B8D34959665-- From nobody Wed Dec 16 04:43:54 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D39DA1B2D34 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 04:43:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_I_LETTER=-2] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h29WU_esH4A5 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 04:43:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-he.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:470:d16a:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B95EF1B2D32 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 04:43:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #91) id m1a9BQp-0000DGC; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 13:43:47 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:57:06 +0900 ." Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 13:43:46 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 12:43:53 -0000 In your letter dated Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:57:06 +0900 you wrote: >Actually, I think we do know how. Remember that what is in scope for this >draft is what networks provide to hosts, and how. There is plenty of >operational experience on using DHCPv6 PD to assign address space - every >IPv6 CPE router on the planet does it. In my opinion having a relatively static collection of CPEs (that are often provided by the ISP) is very different from roaming mobile devices providing tethering or a collection of VMs, etc. If you want to write that PD is best current practice for CPEs, then yes, that's true. But for anything else, there is essentially no experience. It is just hoping that experience with CPEs translates well to mobile devices. From nobody Wed Dec 16 05:10:00 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4CDAF1B2D54 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 05:09:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, GB_I_LETTER=-2, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MSvynvi6_cF0 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 05:09:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x236.google.com (mail-qk0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF6911A912F for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 05:09:55 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id k189so62023306qkc.0 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 05:09:55 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=6kPCpXZl2CPaFIDBVUv170phG6qw0mNcp420R2NAQSI=; b=SIdGCQISR1uTJjfaBhFggNS+joxoO7wLkl2e/nbjIw8KElXMQw4NDI0vqQeilsyGyl Tw2z84Tb8O3P2SHW2TJeQFqNlA/cJskR/rHQHyKCISMV3oZ8tMjAUT18r3lsfMDWBjco ENrbjDuDsG7ddV7dMNuBLz58LmjjBUBCawUsM5K76uD19BKUZJ8wtEvOml3RqrAt+CkP QiC9spuCG7IVtGuqgTJEyAbZQ1meBgROTEEX0bkmnKgodrB6alO9MkYRV0Y/afrcv3oC BXCDdGYnID0MyaRUQMi9PWP0jHKvnBcEMwKQM8eJxE3cfIngc9olgGn3gEgI9VVCaRLD PgHQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=6kPCpXZl2CPaFIDBVUv170phG6qw0mNcp420R2NAQSI=; b=TB1G+DDZhuVQEbwnWfpVprlNhQgmW5Y+UTfEBC6cRWL+6V+zljZO/glfut0w3412Xr i1Y+iUp5snsfQD+Go7KEMe9PDpU1ilQqQLOZ1atx4HhVpUDuATPgfspumHBD/Cuag2+I gGwWDbilw78HnmfrmDvw9h/MpVYzT4modfOYFPE7Uc3GzzJ7VF6i3geXiHxtSYmUBIOx ZaoDpeaYMmzE8WFbs25TU15xRNkMCFBRBzRzSAPTjkM4tLLgO8VE2YIs6wkGM86xz079 zJoksdb+UMV13mxC0DcIlR4pATG0SBm8vtHQeXdYwz7wvX31eIvMrti+7B5T6N6vdZnu N0wQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk2kGIXGz0uOfe7612F3Qxm6KuXgbLKXKMYv437Gf75xaS1lWSKZJbWqu2J/4hR2hozqEHsPjCKRZNnchC7fb/cpkQwxu51Of6cRRR6J5GpDH7QwKo= X-Received: by 10.129.136.196 with SMTP id y187mr26630775ywf.307.1450271394753; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 05:09:54 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 05:09:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 22:09:35 +0900 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114f38b45083530527039fd7 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 13:09:59 -0000 --001a114f38b45083530527039fd7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 9:43 PM, Philip Homburg wrote: > In your letter dated Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:57:06 +0900 you wrote: > >Actually, I think we do know how. Remember that what is in scope for this > >draft is what networks provide to hosts, and how. There is plenty of > >operational experience on using DHCPv6 PD to assign address space - every > >IPv6 CPE router on the planet does it. > > In my opinion having a relatively static collection of CPEs (that are often > provided by the ISP) is very different from roaming mobile devices > providing tethering or a collection of VMs, etc. > > If you want to write that PD is best current practice for CPEs, then yes, > that's true. But for anything else, there is essentially no experience. It > is just hoping that experience with CPEs translates well to mobile devices. > Again, let's make sure we're agree on the scope of this document. What we're talking about is how the network provides addresses, not how the recipient of such addresses behaves. Yes? If we agree that that is the scope of the document, then I don't think there's a problem here. Since we're talking about how the network provides addresses, then the question is "what's the best current practice for how to assign a large number of IPv6 addresses to a client in response to an explicit request for address space". (Recall that the draft recommends DHCPv6 PD only in the case of for networks that require explicit requests from the client, not for networks in general.) For that use case, DHCPv6 PD is not just the best current practice. As far as I can see, it's the *only* current practice: it is the only protocol we have today that's seen any sort of use that allows us to do this. The only other stateful protocol we have is DHCPv6 address assignment, but I think it's pretty clear that that doesn't scale well. You can't even fit that many IA_NA options in a 1280-byte sized packet. (Recall that section 7 says that 32 addresses might not be enough to allow unconstrained development of future applications.) If that argument doesn't convince you, then bear in mind that your statement that "only CPEs do PD, not hosts". For example, Windows has supported DHCPv6 PD since Vista in 2007 - https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/teamdhcp/2007/02/09/dhcpv6-prefix-delegation-in-windows-vista/ . Given the above, I think it's reasonable to say that DHCPv6 PD is the best current practice for networks to assign blocks of IPv6 space to devices that request it. Of course, in the future operational experience might reveal that DHCPv6 PD is in fact not the best way to do this, and that something else is actually better. Personally I think that's really unlikely, because the use case we're talking about (assign a block of addresses to a client) is really not so different from how we assign IPv6 blocks to CPE routers or assign IPv4 addresses to hosts, and I really don't see any other suitable protocol on the horizon. But even if something else comes along that's better, then, well, that's where the C in BCP comes in. DHCPv6 PD is the *current* best practice today, but it might not be tomorrow. --001a114f38b45083530527039fd7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, Dec 16, 2015 at 9:43 PM, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-4@u-1.ph= icoh.com> wrote:
In yo= ur letter dated Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:57:06 +0900 you wrote:
>Actually, I think we do know how. Remember that what is in scope for th= is
>draft is what networks provide to hosts, and how. There is plenty of >operational experience on using DHCPv6 PD to assign address space - eve= ry
>IPv6 CPE router on the planet does it.

In my opinion having a relatively static collection of CPEs (that ar= e often
provided by the ISP) is very different from roaming mobile devices
providing tethering or a collection of VMs, etc.

If you want to write that PD is best current practice for CPEs, then yes, that's true. But for anything else, there is essentially no experience.= It
is just hoping that experience with CPEs translates well to mobile devices.=

Again, let's make sure we're a= gree on the scope of this document. What we're talking about is how the= network provides addresses, not how the recipient of such addresses behave= s. Yes?

If we agree that that is the scope of the = document, then I don't think there's a problem here. Since we'r= e talking about how the network provides addresses, then the question is &q= uot;what's the best current practice for how to assign a large number o= f IPv6 addresses to a client in response to an explicit request for address= space". (Recall that the draft recommends DHCPv6 PD only in the case = of for networks that require explicit requests from the client, not for net= works in general.)

For that use case, DHCPv6 PD is= not just the best current practice. As far as I can see, it's the *onl= y* current practice: it is the only protocol we have today that's seen = any sort of use that allows us to do this. The only other stateful protocol= we have is DHCPv6 address assignment, but I think it's pretty clear th= at that doesn't scale well. You can't even fit that many IA_NA opti= ons in a 1280-byte sized packet. (Recall that section 7 says that 32 addres= ses might not be enough to allow unconstrained development of future applic= ations.)

If that argument doesn't convince you= , then bear in mind that your statement that "only CPEs do PD, not hos= ts". For example, Windows has supported DHCPv6 PD since Vista in 2007 = - https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/t= eamdhcp/2007/02/09/dhcpv6-prefix-delegation-in-windows-vista/.

Given the above, I think it's reasonable to say that D= HCPv6 PD is the best current practice for networks to assign blocks of IPv6= space to devices that request it.

Of course, = in the future operational experience might reveal that DHCPv6 PD is in fact= not the best way to do this, and that something else is actually better. P= ersonally I think that's really unlikely, because the use case we'r= e talking about (assign a block of addresses to a client) is really not so = different from how we assign IPv6 blocks to CPE routers or assign IPv4 addr= esses to hosts, and I really don't see any other suitable protocol on t= he horizon. But even if something else comes along that's better, then,= well, that's where the C in BCP comes in. DHCPv6 PD is the *current* b= est practice today, but it might not be tomorrow.=C2=A0
--001a114f38b45083530527039fd7-- From nobody Wed Dec 16 06:26:12 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03F221A8952 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 06:26:11 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "Cc" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OdxnoQ-bSD9b for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 06:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-he.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:470:d16a:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 012951A894C for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 06:26:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #91) id m1a9D1Y-0000HVC; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 15:25:48 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF5A@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Dec 2015 22:16:09 +0000 ." <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF5A@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 15:25:44 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 14:26:11 -0000 >> It seems to me that we (the IETF) should mostly focus on outward appearance. >> In general, we do not defined host interfaces, just concepts. > >RFC4861 talks about host interfaces, and several varieties of IPv6-over-(fo= >o) >documents also talk about host interfaces. As far as I can tell, RFC 4861 doesn't provide any kind of API. It describes how behavior can be described in terms of interfaces. It doesn't say anything about how that view should be presented to applications. >> By and large, the socket API doesn't really deal with interfaces. Most >> applications written using the socket API don't deal with interfaces >> at all. > >A counter-example would be pinging a link-local address. Which is a problem. As far as I know, we have no API (defined in an RFC) that allows you to get all IPv6 for an interface. Or the other way around, given a public IPv6 assigned to one of the interfaces of a node, to which specific interface it belongs. So the net effect is that writing portable software that deals with link-local addresses is almost impossible because there is no way for an application to make sense of interfaces. >The host can display strong ES characteristics if it assigns addresses to >the interface over which the prefix delegation is received. This works >if the link over which the PD is received is link-local-only and DAD is >disabled. This is exactly the case for AERO interfaces, and may apply >to other interface types such as NBMA in general. Yes, but for example on wifi links, there is no reason to assume that DAD would be disabled. And beyond that, that would create quite a bit of application complexity to assign multiple addresses to one interface and make sure that the right application uses the right address. A model where the 'host' routes between different interfaces is much clearer for me. But by and large I find externally visible effects more interesting. >> Now, what happens if the router that has the static route goes down? >> How does the other router take over? > >Nodes that received prefix delegations from the router will notice that >it has crashed and will request a prefix delegation from another router. >If they receive the same prefix as they were using from the first router, >then there is no need for renumbering. I'm not aware of any RFC that says that if you receive something through a DHCP relay, you have to keep polling the relay and restart DHCP when the relay goes away. Is that documented somewhere? From nobody Wed Dec 16 10:43:05 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EC041A87E7 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:43:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JZex9R7SqdBw for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:43:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com [130.76.32.231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9F4371A7D81 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:43:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBGIh3v8019124; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:43:03 -0800 Received: from XCH-PHX-409.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-409.sw.nos.boeing.com [10.57.37.40]) by blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBGIgscq019034 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:42:54 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-409.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.9.172]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:42:49 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Lorenzo Colitti , Erik Kline Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRM14kKZlCFjAH9ESehHqsgR6qp57EY3SQgACQlAD//3tX8IACHFYqgAU3TID//7GdoIAAjdeA//96OaAAJ+moAAACwN2gAA3zn4AAA97ugAASxdFg Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 18:42:49 +0000 Message-ID: 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KQrohXge09of for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:01:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com [130.76.32.231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B62151A8847 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:01:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBGJ20T5026603; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:02:00 -0800 Received: from XCH-PHX-209.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-209.sw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.29]) by blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBGJ1qgb026008 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:01:52 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-209.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.9.213]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:01:48 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) Thread-Index: AQHRODQ2kzeWURIM9kKzVjcf4DUI9g== Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 19:01:48 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CC39@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF5A@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 19:01:58 -0000 Hi Philip, > -----Original Message----- > From: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com [mailto:pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com] = On Behalf Of Philip Homburg > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2015 6:26 AM > To: v6ops@ietf.org > Cc: Templin, Fred L; Fred Baker (fred) > Subject: Re: DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availab= ility) >=20 > >> It seems to me that we (the IETF) should mostly focus on outward appea= rance. > >> In general, we do not defined host interfaces, just concepts. > > > >RFC4861 talks about host interfaces, and several varieties of IPv6-over-= (fo=3D > >o) > >documents also talk about host interfaces. >=20 > As far as I can tell, RFC 4861 doesn't provide any kind of API. It > describes how behavior can be described in terms of interfaces. > It doesn't say anything about how that view should be presented to > applications. >=20 > >> By and large, the socket API doesn't really deal with interfaces. Most > >> applications written using the socket API don't deal with interfaces > >> at all. > > > >A counter-example would be pinging a link-local address. >=20 > Which is a problem. >=20 > As far as I know, we have no API (defined in an RFC) that allows you to > get all IPv6 for an interface. Or the other way around, given a public > IPv6 assigned to one of the interfaces of a node, to which specific > interface it belongs. >=20 > So the net effect is that writing portable software that deals with > link-local addresses is almost impossible because there is no way for an > application to make sense of interfaces. >=20 > >The host can display strong ES characteristics if it assigns addresses t= o > >the interface over which the prefix delegation is received. This works > >if the link over which the PD is received is link-local-only and DAD is > >disabled. This is exactly the case for AERO interfaces, and may apply > >to other interface types such as NBMA in general. >=20 > Yes, but for example on wifi links, there is no reason to assume that DAD > would be disabled. And beyond that, that would create quite a bit of > application complexity to assign multiple addresses to one interface and > make sure that the right application uses the right address. I thought that was what we were after, i.e., being able to assign lots of addresses to one interface. Is that not what we are after? > A model where the 'host' routes between different interfaces is much > clearer for me. Yes, assigning addresses to the loopback interface the host would indeed route between different interfaces, as would be the case for weak end system. But, at least for AERO, it does not need to be that way and strong end system is possible. Plus, what does routing between interfaces mean to functions such as MTU discovery? The application sees the MTU of the outgoing interface when TCP sets its MSS. So, what MTU would you set on the loopback interface to both avoid setting a too-large initial MSS and yet take advantage of any larger MTUs afforded by the native interface? > But by and large I find externally visible effects more interesting. >=20 > >> Now, what happens if the router that has the static route goes down? > >> How does the other router take over? > > > >Nodes that received prefix delegations from the router will notice that > >it has crashed and will request a prefix delegation from another router. > >If they receive the same prefix as they were using from the first router= , > >then there is no need for renumbering. >=20 > I'm not aware of any RFC that says that if you receive something through > a DHCP relay, you have to keep polling the relay and restart DHCP when th= e > relay goes away. >=20 > Is that documented somewhere? It is in AERO. In AERO, the node can associate with multiple delegating rou= ters and, if one goes away, simply switch to another delegating router. Or, if a= ll go away, find a new delegating router and associate with it. The node will get the same DHCPv6 PD whichever delegating router it associates with. The routing system keeps track of which delegating router(s) each node is currently associated with. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com From nobody Wed Dec 16 11:10:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D2691A889D for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:10:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, GB_I_LETTER=-2, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id orHBks3FqJmJ for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:10:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from stl-mbsout-01.boeing.com (stl-mbsout-01.boeing.com [130.76.96.169]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3C6F1A8847 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:10:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by stl-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBGJAM7A002202; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 13:10:22 -0600 Received: from XCH-PHX-410.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-410.sw.nos.boeing.com [10.57.37.41]) by stl-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBGJAE7I002080 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Wed, 16 Dec 2015 13:10:14 -0600 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-410.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.10.137]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 11:10:14 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRODVk00wQlTPd3EOplbjl/ItoSQ== Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 19:10:14 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CC87@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2015 19:10:25 -0000 Hi Philip, > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Philip Homburg > Sent: Wednesday, December 16, 2015 4:44 AM > To: v6ops@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-ava= ilability-03.txt >=20 > In your letter dated Wed, 16 Dec 2015 10:57:06 +0900 you wrote: > >Actually, I think we do know how. Remember that what is in scope for thi= s > >draft is what networks provide to hosts, and how. There is plenty of > >operational experience on using DHCPv6 PD to assign address space - ever= y > >IPv6 CPE router on the planet does it. >=20 > In my opinion having a relatively static collection of CPEs (that are oft= en > provided by the ISP) is very different from roaming mobile devices > providing tethering or a collection of VMs, etc. AERO is exactly about roaming mobile devices providing tethering or a collection of VMs, etc. > If you want to write that PD is best current practice for CPEs, then yes, > that's true. But for anything else, there is essentially no experience. I= t > is just hoping that experience with CPEs translates well to mobile device= s. I have released an initial implementation of AERO that demonstrates mobility based on DHCPv6 PD and IPv6 ND. Here is the link: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/int-area/4Pqp6NYZIkBYn5xZILN7kQQqDHU Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Wed Dec 16 16:57:28 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 688EF1A8911 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:57:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id n5NZOH0Jtjy2 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x22b.google.com (mail-yk0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4DDF71A8841 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:57:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yk0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id x184so1213191yka.3 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:57:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=2NlghFEH+B0ZTS5O+OqCgpMsXIqDiv5bIhawmDGSjSw=; b=EmdXucPi2v9FN7ysjINMdZJEToDy8helfF6k6GYA6cWTKopetcwRQXnlUlbFUNWRKL GqALJSrKq9ivEzgDWU0Rfzhg3NDs6acqx5nqefpMGUEwOd7IyAy4sXaS0CaHQQaY0vWg 2MNYWBv4OmVUKUHA3qgCAaba4sinjAzMAQdUzZaw2I2V1DErjfH5ft4LY8519+VOQL5C vPZDUqegRsW0plKrwXr6mCecPHegaMOytrJW30qRjPLVikm2MAjBYFMSZ7ntfpn5xL3b cEptnzYteWim5u2BbK1swHStguTsuxGhBztZd+lb6DFzVqACKfbd460QMs1Ghh5noiAq 4JSw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=2NlghFEH+B0ZTS5O+OqCgpMsXIqDiv5bIhawmDGSjSw=; b=E3vXc5qZeIoN8fBjqmwyyltPtpiLc77Gsc8eYwORC7TVz2ETyqh9PV+TcndabpJrBe ZNv/LVh84DP89GAbWWVb68h2wSTVSwMBeoegouSQEKwpkR7grjhK46dsKz4K+e21aOk1 ulWluPz310E5osdUOy763M6Uc4U95ybbaFVq6JgzV88V3j3glyDOhJXf9MyCNhfWzjAC lVcmTPM6RTEUBhZVluDR6ZA8r14+e5bSCOYK8wsc16XoiG3T8APu+1flUirUaLqSTHiS uHBMugJZEwd+G9Ri/feGkcDvpqGssib26J8CF8zAHPtKnQ4uwa/e7h1NHeYo80jFL3m1 Nm9g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnoxZpZTturkd6CnN6HRmXNSG3buTrhC/UJFNPQjIJPCfCJLKkB3tAMl5Cq9IQG2rBvgpzmCqRlBcbcZXh+7xXWIfvIUO5wo9MM7I4lEQCnMq1AxJQ= X-Received: by 10.129.153.198 with SMTP id q189mr29131759ywg.337.1450313845328; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:57:25 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 16:57:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CBBF@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF7F@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CBBF@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 09:57:05 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Templin, Fred L" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0b731690be2205270d81f1 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 00:57:27 -0000 --94eb2c0b731690be2205270d81f1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Templin, Fred L wrote: > it gets in the way of interface types that can set DupAddrDetectTransmits > to zero being able to assign > > addresses directly to the network interface. > Fair enough. You're saying that if you define your own link layer, you can specify that DupAddrDetectTransmits defaults to 0, and on such a link layer, the text I proposed could be seen as unnecessarily restrictive. Let's take your text and merge it with Erik's, then: Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it possible for the host to assign addresses from this prefix to an internal interface such as a loopback interface. This obviates the need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address Detection on its network interface for these addresses, reducing network traffic Better? Cheers, Lorenzo --94eb2c0b731690be2205270d81f1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= hu, Dec 17, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boei= ng.com> wrote:

it gets in the way of=C2=A0in= terface types that can set DupAddrDetectTransmits to zero being able to ass= ign

addresses directly to the network interface.=


Fair enough. You= 9;re saying that if you define your own link layer, you can specify that=C2= =A0DupAddrDetectTransmits defaults to 0, and on such a link layer, the text= I proposed could be seen as unnecessarily restrictive. Let's take your= text and merge it with Erik's, then:

=C2= =A0 =C2=A0Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it
=C2=A0 =C2=A0possible for the host to assign addresses from this pr= efix to an
=C2=A0 =C2=A0internal interface such as a loopback int= erface.=C2=A0 This obviates the
=C2=A0 =C2=A0need to perform Neig= hbour Discovery and Duplicate Address
=C2=A0 =C2=A0Detection on i= ts network interface for these addresses, reducing
=C2=A0 =C2=A0n= etwork traffic

Better?

<= div>
Cheers,
Lorenzo
--94eb2c0b731690be2205270d81f1-- From nobody Wed Dec 16 22:37:53 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B29EB1AD28D for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 22:37:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.31 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.31 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7e19d1ede4Bk for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 22:37:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from vs-m.tc.umn.edu (vs-m.tc.umn.edu [134.84.119.120]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B40501AD277 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 22:37:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ig0-f182.google.com (mail-ig0-f182.google.com [209.85.213.182]) by vs-m.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-SHA bits=128/128); for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 00:37:48 -0600 (CST) X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] mail-ig0-f182.google.com [209.85.213.182] #+LO+TS+TR X-Umn-Classification: local Received: by mail-ig0-f182.google.com with SMTP id mv3so7194653igc.0 for ; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 22:37:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=umn.edu; s=google; h=reply-to:subject:references:to:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=WUiWl/ldkQT7cfdYr/dzMipSZHcZESHpG/SWTVfFKM4=; b=DOOvk+LlBpqsUiV1b2Tk3UGIoJRZo77c/BNYWX9mLjo+00CateWSRvUbZf2e6Lkpzy vIkQj7yXQb+ThMi2S5+LrlNyZXFTklMKOIQtotiheaHhg/N+Cfo8onAIyvMl4QThi0NY kEOAAJz6wqObgMV8dKCar5goIeefYsAsuJOQs= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:reply-to:subject:references:to:cc:from :organization:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=WUiWl/ldkQT7cfdYr/dzMipSZHcZESHpG/SWTVfFKM4=; b=FnF6DQiNI38BznSqGKA27kDEee3LxiQE7mF6AH8FwqMK6UoxTQeyF1v1Ev4/OCMg+w P4MYSYOwm+194wzvQECpK2k9UZLtluoDHQ32oxVroC6zxuuY7DanD+hy85gVYNfuCh+1 vI7f+Q8BlYmZmZQMwOxRHUemaXNGzdhITt1mCSd36atQlV4m9ZYem27psEhbvA/xOU/x cRJiOFI4/RrbhLU5lSkHpXIf3b3dfA69ameFBPJQ+hxo7AF0aPXdmQ3G9kR1FxS4jRKw ub+dk/TMR9IveB9DIoJDBFM47cmvX7n5XDM0at0hSpLxy+mc9Us+vvEC86Kqb69sq03s FzvQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlAjz3kU7LITseaZgQSDOo8nba2h3iz7ee0a8fLRpnbE9ItI3FpJKOu8DNijwGZpKoA0zcRZ71ILB6+ZtGjJU4aVxu/YJsy3Mzaa+3FQBOSj1DmWcLRfNxW84jRSZ/68DZLYRJPLNa34jiGp6h4eb+A/B8ZAA== X-Received: by 10.50.22.33 with SMTP id a1mr1869427igf.52.1450334267773; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 22:37:47 -0800 (PST) X-Received: by 10.50.22.33 with SMTP id a1mr1869417igf.52.1450334267630; Wed, 16 Dec 2015 22:37:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from oit201651646.local ([2601:449:8400:5b37:8084:226c:1f0b:ebfc]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 129sm2768273ioo.23.2015.12.16.22.37.44 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 16 Dec 2015 22:37:45 -0800 (PST) References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> To: Lorenzo Colitti From: David Farmer Organization: University of Minnesota Message-ID: <56725836.7070609@umn.edu> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 00:37:42 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.9; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list Reply-To: David Farmer List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 06:37:51 -0000 On 12/16/15 07:09 , Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > Again, let's make sure we're agree on the scope of this document. What > we're talking about is how the network provides addresses, not how the > recipient of such addresses behaves. Yes? Yes, I agree. However, I think the subtly of that distinction is easily lost on casual readers of the document. That is why earlier I was trying to suggest you should be more explicit about what is out-of scope. Instead of what I suggested last time, maybe add something like the following "It does not specify any changes to protocols or end host behavior" to the end of the Introduction; This document describes the benefits of providing multiple addresses per host and the problems with not doing so. It recommends that networks provide general-purpose end hosts with multiple global addresses when they attach, and lists current options for doing so. It does not specify any changes to protocols or end host behavior. I think that reinforces and clarifies the scope by being explicit about what is out-of scope. Also you seem to frequently stray into talking about things from a host perspective, instead of clearly a network perspective, this is probably confusing this issue a bit. Generally, hosts "obtain" addresses, networks "provide" addresses, "assigning" while correct, might be a little passive, I think "providing" more clearly communicating a network perspective. So, a few specific suggestions for combating this host vs. network confusion; 1. Section 1, "Introduction", the last paragraph starts with "This document describes the benefits of assigning multiple addresses per host..." I think "This document describes the benefits of providing multiple addresses per host..." would be more strongly focused on the network perspective. 2. Section 3 is is titled "Benefits of multiple addresses". "Benefits of providing multiple addresses" is more clearly projects a network perspective. 3. Section 4 is is titled "Problems with assigning a restricted number of addresses per host", I think "Problems with restricting the number of addresses per host" is stronger, but this one is a bit of a coin flip. 4. Section 6 is titled "Options for obtaining more than one address", and starts with "Multiple IPv6 addresses can be obtained in...". This is clearly confusing the perspective and should be changed to "Options for providing more than one address", and start with "Multiple IPv6 addresses can be provided in..." 5. Section 9.3 in the middle paragraph; "...However, switching to a DHCPv6 PD model with one /64 prefix per host resolves these scaling limitations..." And the last paragraph starts with; "Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes...". Again these is a little passive, how about "... However, switching to a DHCPv6 PD model providing one /64 prefix per host resolves these scaling limitations.." and "Also, a DHCPv6 PD model providing a dedicated /64 per host makes..." is more actively about the network. .... > If that argument doesn't convince you, then bear in mind that your > statement that "only CPEs do PD, not hosts". For example, Windows has > supported DHCPv6 PD since Vista in 2007 - > https://blogs.technet.microsoft.com/teamdhcp/2007/02/09/dhcpv6-prefix-delegation-in-windows-vista/. > > Given the above, I think it's reasonable to say that DHCPv6 PD is the > best current practice for networks to assign blocks of IPv6 space to > devices that request it. > > Of course, in the future operational experience might reveal that DHCPv6 > PD is in fact not the best way to do this, and that something else is > actually better. Personally I think that's really unlikely, because the > use case we're talking about (assign a block of addresses to a client) > is really not so different from how we assign IPv6 blocks to CPE routers > or assign IPv4 addresses to hosts, and I really don't see any other > suitable protocol on the horizon. But even if something else comes along > that's better, then, well, that's where the C in BCP comes in. DHCPv6 PD > is the *current* best practice today, but it might not be tomorrow. Yes, this is all true, but most people still have the impression that DHCPv6 PD is primarily intended for configuring routers or CPE and not hosts. If you read the introduction RFC 3633, it is easy to see why people have that impression. Even the example you site is related to Internet Connection Sharing (ICS) where Windows is basically acting like a CPE router. I'm not sure what to do about it though, but it probably shouldn't be ignored. Thanks -- ================================================ David Farmer Email: farmer@umn.edu Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 1-612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 1-612-812-9952 ================================================ From nobody Thu Dec 17 04:46:01 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C48A71B2B5B for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 04:46:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.5 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.5 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HN9X-NPVuJTi for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 04:45:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-he.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:470:d16a:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02ED01B2A41 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 04:45:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #91) id m1a9XwP-0000FmC; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 13:45:53 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF5A@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CC39@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 16 Dec 2015 19:01:48 +0000 ." <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CC39@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 13:45:48 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 12:46:00 -0000 Hi Fred, >> Yes, but for example on wifi links, there is no reason to assume that DAD >> would be disabled. And beyond that, that would create quite a bit of >> application complexity to assign multiple addresses to one interface and >> make sure that the right application uses the right address. > >I thought that was what we were after, i.e., being able to assign lots >of addresses to one interface. Is that not what we are after? I assumed it was 'being able to assign lots of addresses' (actually, enough address that don't have to resort to tricks like NAT). For a 'desk area network' it make sense to assign a /64 to that network. If you have lots of VMs or containers with micro services (to be fully buzzword compliant here) you may want to have a more complicated structure, with (virtual) LANs that connect related services and then route between that and the rest of the internet. >> A model where the 'host' routes between different interfaces is much >> clearer for me. > >Yes, assigning addresses to the loopback interface the host would indeed >route between different interfaces, as would be the case for weak end >system. But, at least for AERO, it does not need to be that way and >strong end system is possible. I see assigning all address to the upstream interface more as a possibility than as a goal. If a host receives enough /64s then the host can decide how to best organise itself (I do note that a /64 or more per host may cause address policy issues, but that's a separate discussion) >Plus, what does routing between interfaces mean to functions such as >MTU discovery? The application sees the MTU of the outgoing interface >when TCP sets its MSS. So, what MTU would you set on the loopback >interface to both avoid setting a too-large initial MSS and yet take >advantage of any larger MTUs afforded by the native interface? The hack to use MSS for path MTU discovery is something that is unfortunately required until we are actually going to do path MTU blackhole discovery. I hope that one day we can get rid of that business, we have the RFC, it just needs to be implemented. That said, if you are going to play games with MSS, then setting the MTU on the loopback device should be no problem. Various operating systems support the creation of multiple loopback devices or other virtual devices. So there is no reason to not have your cake and eat it too. >> Is that documented somewhere? > >It is in AERO. In AERO, the node can associate with multiple delegating rou= >ters >and, if one goes away, simply switch to another delegating router. Or, if a= >ll go >away, find a new delegating router and associate with it. > >The node will get the same DHCPv6 PD whichever delegating router it >associates with. The routing system keeps track of which delegating >router(s) each node is currently associated with. I was not worried about getting the same prefix, but about the requirement to refresh a DHCP lease when a router goes down. From nobody Thu Dec 17 10:18:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 494BC1B2C0F for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:18:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iz_O187jVKJW for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCFF51A1C04 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:18:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBHIIfKV058571; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 11:18:41 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-308.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-blv-308.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.220]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBHIIViR058111 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Thu, 17 Dec 2015 11:18:31 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-BLV-308.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.8.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:18:30 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRM14kKZlCFjAH9ESehHqsgR6qp57EY3SQgACQlAD//3tX8IACHFYqgAU3TID//7GdoIAAjdeA//96OaAAJ+moAAACwN2gAA3zn4AAA97ugAASxdFgAB6JjYAAE5jDoA== Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 18:18:30 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8DE3E@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF7F@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CBBF@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8DE3EXCHBLV504nwnosb_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: 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--_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8DE3EXCHBLV504nwnosb_-- From nobody Thu Dec 17 10:40:44 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 368AB1A8855 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:40:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id L8VosZI7P_2j for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:40:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com [130.76.32.232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3508F1A87C4 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBHIef8b006863; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:40:41 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-305.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-blv-305.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.217]) by blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBHIebD1006343 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:40:37 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-BLV-305.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.5.164]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 10:40:34 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) Thread-Index: AQHRODQ2kzeWURIM9kKzVjcf4DUI9p7PIYOrgABdLrA= Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 18:40:33 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8DF01@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF5A@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CC39@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 18:40:43 -0000 Hi Philip, > -----Original Message----- > From: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com [mailto:pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com] = On Behalf Of Philip Homburg > Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 4:46 AM > To: v6ops@ietf.org > Cc: Templin, Fred L > Subject: Re: DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availab= ility) >=20 > Hi Fred, >=20 > >> Yes, but for example on wifi links, there is no reason to assume that = DAD > >> would be disabled. And beyond that, that would create quite a bit of > >> application complexity to assign multiple addresses to one interface a= nd > >> make sure that the right application uses the right address. > > > >I thought that was what we were after, i.e., being able to assign lots > >of addresses to one interface. Is that not what we are after? >=20 > I assumed it was 'being able to assign lots of addresses' (actually, enou= gh > address that don't have to resort to tricks like NAT). > > For a 'desk area network' it make sense to assign a /64 to that network. > If you have lots of VMs or containers with micro services (to be fully > buzzword compliant here) you may want to have a more complicated structur= e, > with (virtual) LANs that connect related services and then route between > that and the rest of the internet. Right, the addresses could be assigned to internal interfaces like loopback= s, to internal virtual machines, etc. And, there may be many assigned to the same interface, as permitted by the RFCs. How apps might use multiple addresses assigned to the same interface is beyond the scope of this work. > >> A model where the 'host' routes between different interfaces is much > >> clearer for me. > > > >Yes, assigning addresses to the loopback interface the host would indeed > >route between different interfaces, as would be the case for weak end > >system. But, at least for AERO, it does not need to be that way and > >strong end system is possible. >=20 > I see assigning all address to the upstream interface more as a possibili= ty > than as a goal. If a host receives enough /64s then the host can decide h= ow > to best organise itself (I do note that a /64 or more per host may cause > address policy issues, but that's a separate discussion) But, a possibility that may prove useful in the future. > >Plus, what does routing between interfaces mean to functions such as > >MTU discovery? The application sees the MTU of the outgoing interface > >when TCP sets its MSS. So, what MTU would you set on the loopback > >interface to both avoid setting a too-large initial MSS and yet take > >advantage of any larger MTUs afforded by the native interface? >=20 > The hack to use MSS for path MTU discovery is something that is > unfortunately required until we are actually going to do path MTU blackho= le > discovery. I hope that one day we can get rid of that business, we have t= he > RFC, it just needs to be implemented. >=20 > That said, if you are going to play games with MSS, then setting the MTU > on the loopback device should be no problem. Various operating systems > support the creation of multiple loopback devices or other virtual device= s. > So there is no reason to not have your cake and eat it too. >=20 > >> Is that documented somewhere? > > > >It is in AERO. In AERO, the node can associate with multiple delegating = rou=3D > >ters > >and, if one goes away, simply switch to another delegating router. Or, i= f a=3D > >ll go > >away, find a new delegating router and associate with it. > > > >The node will get the same DHCPv6 PD whichever delegating router it > >associates with. The routing system keeps track of which delegating > >router(s) each node is currently associated with. >=20 > I was not worried about getting the same prefix, but about the requiremen= t > to refresh a DHCP lease when a router goes down. Routers are critical infrastructure. They should not go down very often or, if they do, they will probably go down "hard" and come back up at some later time. Routers that (repeatedly) go down for a few seconds then come back up could cause oscillations in the routing system, but this is no different than for any type of routing system. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com From nobody Thu Dec 17 13:29:52 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1161B30D0 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 13:29:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o-09AHenIaSW for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 13:29:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x229.google.com (mail-vk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 830611A8993 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 13:29:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk0-x229.google.com with SMTP id a189so54496668vkh.2 for ; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 13:29:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=4Wa9hebPoKYw2pARMwjN8e6VqUPcMwQlMuYaQOkWiVE=; b=zcbZEdUBMNZYxD3KE02vyPvMD6M9qkpbrVAlCLZyX12Xw0iks9nqzvi/xEKWssTwft dycbBiSftsyOtrjvEQrDlCX7Qblyrb99owtVROuqFwxWdxBTU8FjEbJ4LRgXuREpZRRe ge/hizE+zHippHMiVOBts9u4DauMbHVMVcDAU5c2I0HZEHALG+pxBEq56vauENlp297h TlZPUIgdgVB5TL6UHwhf/XzQKF5L1izGO3K25j2Q+JWSwvg97/6in2/1+4QTYt7vo3l2 kYH0fSaYY9HghsyLP+1vvYsBpi7OjhWReUCCS54W1jBVWvZ6b/2umpNXSIobnRQTjj2g iSCA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.107.138 with SMTP id k10mr19142746vki.27.1450387788712; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 13:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.97.195 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 13:29:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.97.195 with HTTP; Thu, 17 Dec 2015 13:29:48 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20151210151847.2475.78959.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8752B@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8786C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF7F@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CBBF@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Fri, 18 Dec 2015 08:29:48 +1100 Message-ID: From: Mark Smith To: Lorenzo Colitti Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11478cb8eecf5d05271eb845 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list , =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Dec 2015 21:29:51 -0000 --001a11478cb8eecf5d05271eb845 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 17 Dec 2015 11:57 AM, "Lorenzo Colitti" wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Templin, Fred L < Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote: >> >> it gets in the way of interface types that can set DupAddrDetectTransmits to zero being able to assign >> >> addresses directly to the network interface. > > > Fair enough. You're saying that if you define your own link layer, you can specify that DupAddrDetectTransmits defaults to 0, and on such a link layer, the text I proposed could be seen as unnecessarily restrictive. Let's take your text and merge it with Erik's, then: > > Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host makes it > possible for the host to assign addresses from this prefix to an > internal interface such as a loopback interface. This obviates the > need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address > Detection on its network interface for these addresses, reducing > network traffic > Perhaps a little extra (somewhere), ", as the host can ensure duplicate addresses do not occur." > Better? > > Cheers, > Lorenzo > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --001a11478cb8eecf5d05271eb845 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 17 Dec 2015 11:57 AM, "Lorenzo Colitti" <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Templin, Fred L <Fred.L.Templin@boeing.com> wrote:
>>
>> it gets in the way of=C2=A0interface types that can set DupAddrDet= ectTransmits to zero being able to assign
>>
>> addresses directly to the network interface.
>
>
> Fair enough. You're saying that if you define your own link layer,= you can specify that=C2=A0DupAddrDetectTransmits defaults to 0, and on suc= h a link layer, the text I proposed could be seen as unnecessarily restrict= ive. Let's take your text and merge it with Erik's, then:
>
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Also, a DHCPv6 PD model with a dedicated /64 per host mak= es it
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0possible for the host to assign addresses from this prefi= x to an
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0internal interface such as a loopback interface.=C2=A0 Th= is obviates the
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0need to perform Neighbour Discovery and Duplicate Address=
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0Detection on its network interface for these addresses, r= educing
> =C2=A0 =C2=A0network traffic
>

Perhaps a little extra (somewhere),

", as the host can ensure duplicate addresses do not oc= cur."

> Better?
>
> Cheers,
> Lorenzo
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

--001a11478cb8eecf5d05271eb845-- From nobody Sat Dec 19 05:46:47 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 434681A89AF for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 05:46:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2rS2MaBYmHZC for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 05:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-he.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:470:d16a:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC1D1A89AE for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 05:46:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #91) id m1aAHqL-0000F4C; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:46:41 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF5A@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CC39@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8DF01@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 17 Dec 2015 18:40:33 +0000 ." <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8DF01@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:46:37 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 13:46:46 -0000 Hi Fred, >Routers are critical infrastructure. They should not go down very often >or, if they do, they will probably go down "hard" and come back up at >some later time. Routers that (repeatedly) go down for a few seconds >then come back up could cause oscillations in the routing system, but >this is no different than for any type of routing system. That's why my example started out with 2 routers connected to the same link both being a DHCPv6 relay. I left out the any implication that they would be running VRRP or something. But v6 provides enough for rapid failover even with that. So, bringing one router down should not have much operational impact. With PD for hosts we get a new situation where routers have to store and share persistent state wrt prefix leases. From nobody Sat Dec 19 14:48:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4DA751ACDDA for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:48:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yO1sV7UkYGpz for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:48:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x234.google.com (mail-vk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D93EF1ACDDE for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:48:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk0-x234.google.com with SMTP id a189so83759322vkh.2 for ; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:48:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=sf5uvJbW6jPuNGw2lSo9OY7vxUuULQiWDpt3SrUlY4U=; b=zq52LqHJO5demyex5eYc5+Ih44APxGMdDNTRljDjrWaHbnGdc4bis9+3H7Y+7dGpMf DXkdSk4azKStaazm4i5SiQ0tzAFwjMTqnau87N/5vqMEknR6pAmaUgqfmSkmxskttxa4 umnRZTQY07NyMtGnIaa/DBdYObrdRtTO+2sJsRvzkVH8Oc6jyYAN7ZUfhPfktJES0h3i 9Y9PrBgC393pY4aHs93zRB/mXobUircZQ3iV1ZZnvRoeHQB1lBH+v1BrD90FkciCDX5C 43HjU7pkJjkUly+K67dmC3In80Sg8dB4NwxjOZ39C6oxBA3mhyh8/XWcFWAwI6ZkxmA6 LpxA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.21.210 with SMTP id 201mr7333078vkv.132.1450565293969; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.97.195 with HTTP; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:48:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.97.195 with HTTP; Sat, 19 Dec 2015 14:48:13 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF5A@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CC39@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8DF01@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 09:48:13 +1100 Message-ID: From: Mark Smith To: Philip Homburg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1143b43412165b0527480d93 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Dec 2015 22:48:16 -0000 --001a1143b43412165b0527480d93 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 20 Dec 2015 12:47 AM, "Philip Homburg" wrote: > > Hi Fred, > > >Routers are critical infrastructure. They should not go down very often > >or, if they do, they will probably go down "hard" and come back up at > >some later time. Routers that (repeatedly) go down for a few seconds > >then come back up could cause oscillations in the routing system, but > >this is no different than for any type of routing system. > > That's why my example started out with 2 routers connected to the > same link both being a DHCPv6 relay. I left out the any implication > that they would be running VRRP or something. But v6 provides enough > for rapid failover even with that. > > So, bringing one router down should not have much operational impact. > > With PD for hosts we get a new situation where routers have to store > and share persistent state wrt prefix leases. > > I think DHCPv6-PD is serving the same or similar function as routing protocols in this scenario, so I think that means that the DHCPv6-PD client needs to track the presence of its DHCP "neighbor" using the standard sorts of neighbor presence discovery methods e.g. link state, neighbor advertisements or probing. For example, if NUD determines that the current PD router has gone away, a DHCPv6 REBIND is triggered to see if some other available DHCP server will provide/facilitate the delegated prefix. Regards, Mark. > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --001a1143b43412165b0527480d93 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 20 Dec 2015 12:47 AM, "Philip Homburg" <pch-v6ops-4@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Fred,
>
> >Routers are critical infrastructure. They should not go down very = often
> >or, if they do, they will probably go down "hard" and co= me back up at
> >some later time. Routers that (repeatedly) go down for a few secon= ds
> >then come back up could cause oscillations in the routing system, = but
> >this is no different than for any type of routing system.
>
> That's why my example started out with 2 routers connected to the<= br> > same link both being a DHCPv6 relay. I left out the any implication > that they would be running VRRP or something. But v6 provides enough > for rapid failover even with that.
>
> So, bringing one router down should not have much operational impact.<= br> >
> With PD for hosts we get a new situation where routers have to store > and share persistent state wrt prefix leases.
>
>

I think DHCPv6-PD is serving the same or similar function as= routing protocols in this scenario, so I think that means that the DHCPv6-= PD client needs to track the presence of its DHCP "neighbor" usin= g the standard sorts of neighbor presence discovery methods e.g. link state= , neighbor advertisements or probing.

For example, if NUD determines that the current PD router ha= s gone away, a DHCPv6 REBIND is triggered to see if some other available DH= CP server will provide/facilitate the delegated prefix.

Regards,
Mark.

> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

--001a1143b43412165b0527480d93-- From nobody Sun Dec 20 03:03:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A541B2C41 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 03:03:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0kCN1WHR8Ugd for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 03:03:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo.hq.phicoh.net [130.37.15.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E25A71B2C40 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 03:03:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #91) id m1aAblo-0000EtC; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 12:03:20 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF5A@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CC39@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8DF01@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 20 Dec 2015 09:48:13 +1100 ." Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 12:03:14 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 11:03:25 -0000 >I think DHCPv6-PD is serving the same or similar function as routing >protocols in this scenario, so I think that means that the DHCPv6-PD client >needs to track the presence of its DHCP "neighbor" using the standard sorts >of neighbor presence discovery methods e.g. link state, neighbor >advertisements or probing. > >For example, if NUD determines that the current PD router has gone away, a >DHCPv6 REBIND is triggered to see if some other available DHCP server will >provide/facilitate the delegated prefix. I see some problems with this approach. The first is that ND is usually in the kernel and the DHCP client is an application process. So the kernel would have to signal the DHCP client process that the DHCP server is down (or the DHCP client would have to poll). Not nice. Worse, NUD only comes into play when the host tries to send something to its DHCP server. And there are many scenarios where that doesn't happen. So the host would have to ping its DHCP every couple of seconds. Not good for scalability. Also not good for battery usage. Then when the network is interrupted for a short while, all hosts will try to REBIND. But worse, because they know that the DHCP server they last used is down, they would have to multicast the request. I'd like to see the effect of that on a large wifi network. (I have some ideas of how to solve the problem by adding stuff to ND, but that is something for 6man). From nobody Sun Dec 20 04:13:27 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40C241B2CC0 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 04:13:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o-5_GygIpyNs for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 04:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x22d.google.com (mail-vk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 728CB1B2CBE for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 04:13:24 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id a189so88015469vkh.2 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 04:13:24 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=/ch3b10UUAzsvEcNP8gFUPh0rQtlvJzxW+7rafejock=; b=Lr759QZpUOIOFfhQbB0/7SyVUWxWWqVArFedXS8jYeN74atiQdra6wkfPIq01lWmdc Tkg++NIjAL7a0SpDI7/6sUQGKFUVbkOjfMaUrbZxcPhmwegmUzH00uR7kVyIePINnL5y SMqNvKy82LDLFRWbj1Z5IDDvqV8khdKGNWgMdbE5WAyTEjWEGfbfA3MAQ7nTK++F72AG 1mrS7Q76gQmBrmNw9VyW0xRp31Vk0NsIK0Fn6RQBbpeEmgI1vvrlWdQxqocNtqhnBS0d ZR22ZcyEIUCLAxhZyCvsZrZLmwIgmIlPkHEP0mo/RxJkf4uDF4QEjFPr+ehPbHNhEGfo 3HXQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.31.107.138 with SMTP id k10mr8219098vki.27.1450613603539; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 04:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.97.195 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 04:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.103.97.195 with HTTP; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 04:13:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF5A@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CC39@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8DF01@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 23:13:23 +1100 Message-ID: From: Mark Smith To: Philip Homburg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11478cb88ba12a0527534cfc Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 12:13:26 -0000 --001a11478cb88ba12a0527534cfc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 20 Dec 2015 10:03 PM, "Philip Homburg" wrote: > > >I think DHCPv6-PD is serving the same or similar function as routing > >protocols in this scenario, so I think that means that the DHCPv6-PD client > >needs to track the presence of its DHCP "neighbor" using the standard sorts > >of neighbor presence discovery methods e.g. link state, neighbor > >advertisements or probing. > > > >For example, if NUD determines that the current PD router has gone away, a > >DHCPv6 REBIND is triggered to see if some other available DHCP server will > >provide/facilitate the delegated prefix. > > I see some problems with this approach. > Note the "for example". It may not be the best way to solve the problem, but it is an example of how it could be solved. Another way a host could verify that the router it received the prefix from still has current prefix information is that the host is still receiving traffic to the prefix via the router, only resorting to probing after a period of silence. > The first is that ND is usually in the kernel and the DHCP client is an > application process. So the kernel would have to signal the DHCP client process > that the DHCP server is down (or the DHCP client would have to poll). Not nice. > Is it requirement that ND is in the kernel, and DHCPV6-PD be outside of it? The Linux kernel signals user space when receiving RAs with DNS options, it has a kennel space DHCPv4 client, a user space ARP implementation exists, and Network Manager is moving quite a lot of low level functions like RA handing into user space. So I don't think there should be much weight put on whether some functions are in the kernel while others are in user space. > Worse, NUD only comes into play when the host tries to send something to > its DHCP server. And there are many scenarios where that doesn't happen. > In a DHCPv6-PD scenario, the DHCP server or relay is also the router that the host receives all or all offlink traffic from. That is also the router sending RAs, and also one that the host will be tracking the presence of using NUD. > So the host would have to ping its DHCP every couple of seconds. Not good > for scalability. Also not good for battery usage. > > Then when the network is interrupted for a short while, all hosts will > try to REBIND. But worse, because they know that the DHCP server they last > used is down, they would have to multicast the request. I'd like to see the > effect of that on a large wifi network. > If that is a problem, then their WiFi network is too large. > (I have some ideas of how to solve the problem by adding stuff to ND, but > that is something for 6man). --001a11478cb88ba12a0527534cfc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 20 Dec 2015 10:03 PM, "Philip Homburg" <pch-v6ops-4@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:
>
> >I think DHCPv6-PD is serving the same or similar function as routi= ng
> >protocols in this scenario, so I think that means that the DHCPv6-= PD client
> >needs to track the presence of its DHCP "neighbor" using= the standard sorts
> >of neighbor presence discovery methods e.g. link state, neighbor > >advertisements or probing.
> >
> >For example, if NUD determines that the current PD router has gone= away, a
> >DHCPv6 REBIND is triggered to see if some other available DHCP ser= ver will
> >provide/facilitate the delegated prefix.
>
> I see some problems with this approach.
>

Note the "for example". It may not be the best way= to solve the problem, but it is an example of how it could be solved.

Another way a host could verify that the router it received = the prefix from still has current prefix information is that the host is st= ill receiving traffic to the prefix via the router, only resorting to probi= ng after a period of silence.

> The first is that ND is usually in the kernel and the D= HCP client is an
> application process. So the kernel would have to signal the DHCP clien= t process
> that the DHCP server is down (or the DHCP client would have to poll). = Not nice.
>

Is it requirement that ND is in the kernel, and DHCPV6-PD be= outside of it?

The Linux kernel signals user space when receiving RAs with = DNS options, it has a kennel space DHCPv4 client, a user space ARP implemen= tation exists, and Network Manager is moving quite a lot of low level funct= ions like RA handing into user space.

So I don't think there should be much weight put on whet= her some functions are in the kernel while others are in user space.

> Worse, NUD only comes into play when the host tries to = send something to
> its DHCP server. And there are many scenarios where that doesn't h= appen.
>

In a DHCPv6-PD scenario, the DHCP server or relay is also th= e router that the host receives all or all offlink traffic from. That is al= so the router sending RAs, and also one that the host will be tracking the = presence of using NUD.

> So the host would have to ping its DHCP every couple of= seconds. Not good
> for scalability. Also not good for battery usage.
>
> Then when the network is interrupted for a short while, all hosts will=
> try to REBIND. But worse, because they know that the DHCP server they = last
> used is down, they would have to multicast the request. I'd like t= o see the
> effect of that on a large wifi network.
>

If that is a problem, then their WiFi network is too large. =

> (I have some ideas of how to solve the problem by addin= g stuff to ND, but
> that is something for 6man).

--001a11478cb88ba12a0527534cfc-- From nobody Sun Dec 20 15:33:25 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 185471A21AF for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 15:33:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qmqko60_EdIG for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 15:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CAB41A21A9 for ; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 15:33:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 49B9F3493C0; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 23:32:22 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 997CC16004A; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 23:35:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88BE0160071; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 23:35:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id h4AHqCRLlIMx; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 23:35:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c122-106-161-187.carlnfd1.nsw.optusnet.com.au [122.106.161.187]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1BDE616004A; Sun, 20 Dec 2015 23:35:39 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E5953F7561B; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:32:19 +1100 (EST) To: Philip Homburg From: Mark Andrews References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 15 Dec 2015 16:26:31 +0100." Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:32:19 +1100 Message-Id: <20151220233219.8E5953F7561B@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 20 Dec 2015 23:33:25 -0000 In message , Philip Homburg writes: > (I changed the subject to reflect that this is about DHCPv6 PD) > > >> It seems to me that the only sensible model for PD is that any node > >> receiving a prefix is a router. > > > >I think we agreed before that the node must present the outward appearance > >of a router, yes. But, internally, applications are presented with the appe= > >arance > >of an ordinary host. > > It seems to me that we (the IETF) should mostly focus on outward appearance. > In general, we do not defined host interfaces, just concepts. > > There are a few exceptions, but for example the socket interface was never > extended to support happy eyeballs. And there is a lot of networking > related APIs that are defined outside the IETF. What needed to be extended? HE is basically fast retry and the existing API supported that. https://users.isc.org/~marka/select-connect.c https://users.isc.org/~marka/poll-connect.c https://users.isc.org/~marka/thread-connect.c > Of course, we should also avoid specifying behavior that is incompatible with > the socket API. > > >> As discussed earlier, for redirection to work, the receiving node has to > >> be a router for the purposes for ND. > > > >From an external appearance, yes. > > > >> If we declare the node to be a router then the whole strong vs weak end s= > >ystem > >> discussion goes away. > > > >From an internal appearance, maybe not. If the interface over which the > >delegated prefix is received is the same interface to which addresses from > >the delegated prefix are assigned, then to applications it looks just like > >an > >ordinary host. The AERO interface does just that, and we are now exploring > >whether the same would apply to other interface types. > > By and large, the socket API doesn't really deal with interfaces. Most > applications written using the socket API don't deal with interfaces > at all. > > So from an internal appearance, where an address is assigned is mostly > irrelevant. Though of course externally visible behavior will be visible > to the application as well. > > For example, in an (overly) strong ES model, if you assign an address to the > loopback interface, packets with that address as the source address > will never leave the host. > > To me, the externally visible difference between strong and weak ES, is that > in strong ES, a packet will always depart from the interface to which the > address is assigned. So if a host is found to originate packets with > source address that do not belong to the local subnet, then the host likely > uses the weak ES model (or is broken in some way). > > >> I don't think there is any downside. In my opinion, hosts should not assign > >> addresses to internal interfaces and then use them on other interfaces. > >> If a router does that then the situation is completely clear. Being a router > >> doesn't seem to impose unreasonable requirements. > > > >This is strong/weak ES consideration, where you seem to be implying that > >strong ES is more "host-like". But, we are wondering if this makes a > >difference to applications - will some applications prefer to run on > >one ES model vs. the other? > > In the past I did write a stack that had strong ES built in even when the > node was a router. That's just not recommended. > > Though for a multi-homed host (that is not a router) I certainly prefer > the strong ES model. > > So for me, saying that a node that receives a prefix using PD has to behave > like a router, essentially implies weak ES. And of course that will be > visible to applications. > > Though as I said before, applications written using the socket API are > generally not aware that there are different interfaces. > > >> But maybe it is best to wait for things to go wrong because the obvious > >> fix would involve changing ND. And I'm sure nobody would want to do that > >> at this time. > > > >I don't see any problems at this time. Well OK; there is one problem. Route= > >rs > >are not supposed to send Redirects to other routers. Which means that, with > >standard ND, the PD hosts would always use the dogleg path through their > >default router to talk to other nodes on the link. AERO fixes this by allowing > >router-to-router redirects. This is already specified in RFC6706 but updated > >by AERO(bis). > > That's certainly one interesting case. > > I was thinking about a more serious problem. Assume two routers > connected to a single link. A node on that link requests a prefix using > DHCPv6 PD. Both routers run a DHCPv6 relay. > > Absent additional specifications, only one router will install a static > route. Obviously, if the router reboots it has to restore all static > routes. Normally, a DHCP relays doesn't maintain state, so that's new. > > Now, what happens if the router that has the static route goes down? > How does the other router take over? > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Mon Dec 21 06:16:03 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2C55E1A6F01 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 06:16:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.09 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.09 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_50=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2iGDZTChmjgK for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 06:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9D811A6F17 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 06:15:57 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id ABBD36067B for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:15:54 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius3.space.net (moebius3.Space.Net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::250]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6A16C600FD for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:15:54 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 68571 invoked by uid 1007); 21 Dec 2015 15:15:54 +0100 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:15:54 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Lorenzo Colitti Message-ID: <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 14:16:01 -0000 Hi, On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:57:06AM +0900, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > Actually, I think we do know how. Remember that what is in scope for this > draft is what networks provide to hosts, and how. There is plenty of > operational experience on using DHCPv6 PD to assign address space - every > IPv6 CPE router on the planet does it. Actually, most IPv6 CPEs are fine *receiving* DHCPv6 PD, but claiming "every IPv6 CPE router.. does it" is just not correct - and, actually, not even relevant here as people might not connect their enterprise wifi networks to a typical *CPE* device. So we do not really have experience with "running DHCPv6 PD on the server side in a non-CPE environment that is not built for client access" (like, a cable headend or DSL LNS) either. > You may be correct that there are doubts on what *hosts* should do when > delegated a block of addresses via DHCPv6 PD, but host behaviour is not > really in scope for this draft. I see this as not really acceptable for a document has such a strong recommendation (section 8) for DHCPv6 PD. (In short, I think the whole idea of using DHCPv6 PD for hosts brings a shitload of problems with it - but if you want to go there, spell it out so it can actually work) Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Mon Dec 21 06:18:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09D481A6F3A for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 06:18:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OlVp9CxJ1yHT for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 06:18:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A54571A6F04 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 06:18:13 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C57B760733 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:18:11 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius3.space.net (moebius3.Space.Net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::250]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89203600D4 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:18:11 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 68685 invoked by uid 1007); 21 Dec 2015 15:18:11 +0100 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:18:11 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Lorenzo Colitti Message-ID: <20151221141811.GS58491@Space.Net> References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 14:18:20 -0000 Hi, On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:09:35PM +0900, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > Of course, in the future operational experience might reveal that DHCPv6 PD > is in fact not the best way to do this, and that something else is actually > better. Personally I think that's really unlikely, because the use case > we're talking about (assign a block of addresses to a client) is really not > so different from how we assign IPv6 blocks to CPE routers or assign IPv4 > addresses to hosts, and I really don't see any other suitable protocol on > the horizon. But even if something else comes along that's better, then, > well, that's where the C in BCP comes in. DHCPv6 PD is the *current* best > practice today, but it might not be tomorrow. BC*P* also means "*p*ractice". Nobody is doing this today in the environments that this draft talks about, so where does "current practice" come from? Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Mon Dec 21 06:59:56 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CE081A877D for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 06:59:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yiYOJypCl52a for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 06:59:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x22f.google.com (mail-yk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9F001A877B for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 06:59:52 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id p130so132760803yka.1 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 06:59:52 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=Nzz/WgXB+1OqGQ70HBT8qnQ28jz/OutrhYvP4dDqxyQ=; b=bk8PQ1zCYB9ElCBjbScd5bC00+BjXvS5Tpb+x8m8NJrEEMrzdul2L/LVvjE/fAG/HW ECBbPNJ8nJuuBkzjKjZ/h2w9kZPCi4xjoJtDwsStU79Q1n5nTKQK5zgwoUNME+PurFtA XCr+nNqRYDhQ8oFv3LRCQJAxCchHEv+yM3j1k76EO21s0ot2JSY72aGWQkK0h49CYnfa PrgJPExJS0aZ7m2wJ7+6TFMz7fmM6qDkA5oY6OHR/Bcn0jm3XiCG7vjzDU6VGgD5Alp4 GD2/ikU+ygzwutjfDFUuVjFgixP5pgB6OuBCzgHNiV9WbjUjG/AL1rvQ4HmpEIHj9H0i Hq6A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=Nzz/WgXB+1OqGQ70HBT8qnQ28jz/OutrhYvP4dDqxyQ=; b=g5V5PIle6TX9wi4TC+7GV6i5q5TTls0Skr1DftTvgEuyRseBnE9Yfw3kubeM9NBBL3 FN3afqoKitQivVmxn7kT46IQsvc7SZaeoSSUupoTVSdbBiRxN0hDNRkf53iP2llP7bXg FKwzILP8vIthny2w46NclHggPqXXkn1cEp9ctfbqxrsT5cWCwwqZiVTvg4gYVuz08Uc7 QpxFdeVWfe86zS2ZI4pZT9yGqIa2Ybjgyv9BGnJkZEE+kf4qv3JMtw9Mh771WISZ7TiR tn4gIFsFtkjPmz+V/NYJo5WFfChc6xLZjGB++9wf+5L18tr2cxTSBqg7LPVf1phc4vuf bR8Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlaJrH1U13NnHXJejiwqOFwY6LiDbKITGU5NfYvQ1A7CP9jGYqs3s6C3LhmkanP97qMbJUPf/1PL5RS5putAoyBDLoMFEYGmbjG6QeJq8a+zH+RWxI= X-Received: by 10.129.157.79 with SMTP id u76mr17210190ywg.123.1450709992010; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 06:59:52 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 06:59:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:59:32 +0900 Message-ID: To: Gert Doering Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0b61e8bf7b8f052769bd98 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 14:59:55 -0000 --94eb2c0b61e8bf7b8f052769bd98 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 11:15 PM, Gert Doering wrote: > On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:57:06AM +0900, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > > Actually, I think we do know how. Remember that what is in scope for this > > draft is what networks provide to hosts, and how. There is plenty of > > operational experience on using DHCPv6 PD to assign address space - every > > IPv6 CPE router on the planet does it. > > Actually, most IPv6 CPEs are fine *receiving* DHCPv6 PD, but claiming > "every IPv6 CPE router.. does it" is just not correct - and, actually, > not even relevant here as people might not connect their enterprise wifi > networks to a typical *CPE* device. > Sorry, that was misworded. What I meant is that networks assign IPv6 addresses to every CPE on the planet via DHCPv6 PD. Not that every CPE on the planet is a DHCPv6 PD server. > You may be correct that there are doubts on what *hosts* should do when > > delegated a block of addresses via DHCPv6 PD, but host behaviour is not > > really in scope for this draft. > > I see this as not really acceptable for a document has such a strong > recommendation (section 8) for DHCPv6 PD. > > (In short, I think the whole idea of using DHCPv6 PD for hosts brings > a shitload of problems with it - but if you want to go there, spell it > out so it can actually work) > I feel very strongly that we should not do document what hosts need to do in this document. That is out of scope - what we're saying here is providing recommendations on how networks should act, not how hosts should act. If we start talking about hosts in this document, then we will spend a very long time as quibbling on what is and is not in scope, and how exactly hosts should behave. Look at how long we spent talking about DAD: that took three weeks, even though we were basically all in agreement. Like I said: on networks that require explicit requests for address space, we simply have no other way to assign anything that's not a handful of addresses. By definition, on those networks SLAAC is not supported, so all we have is IA_NA. So that's the B in BCP, though it's not really so much "Best" as "Only". We could say in the draft that requiring DHCPv6 is not recommended and that networks should consider SLAAC instead, but that's bound to cause disagreement, so there's no point attempting that. We do have plenty of experience with using DHCPv6 PD to assign addresses to things, and yes, those things include hosts (e.g., Windows, which has supported DHCPv6 PD for close to a decade). It's true that not all hosts and networks support this, just like not all networks support DHCPv6 or SLAAC or whatever else. But some enterprise networks do. Our enterprise network has places on it that do PD, and as you might expect, the servers that hand out the prefixes neither know nor care if it's a host or a router that requested them. And there are DHCPv6 PD implementations for host OSes such as ISC DHCP and dibbler. If your concern is that using DHCPv6 PD on a host will cause lots of problems - what problems are you talking about? From the host perspective it's simple. You get a prefix. You form a random address from that prefix and assign it to a loopback. You use the weak host model to use that address to send packets on your physical interface. You deal with source address selection as if that address was assigned to the physical interface. If your network stack is not smart enough to do that, you can assign the random address to your interface with DAD disabled. You can even respond to neighbour discovery if you want, but nobody will ever ask. If you want another address, you do the same again. Cheers, Lorenzo --94eb2c0b61e8bf7b8f052769bd98 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On M= on, Dec 21, 2015 at 11:15 PM, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wro= te:
On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 10:57:06AM= +0900, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:
> Actually, I think we do know how. Remember that what is in scope for t= his
> draft is what networks provide to hosts, and how. There is plenty of > operational experience on using DHCPv6 PD to assign address space - ev= ery
> IPv6 CPE router on the planet does it.

Actually, most IPv6 CPEs are fine *receiving* DHCPv6 PD, but claimin= g
"every IPv6 CPE router.. does it" is just not correct - and, actu= ally,
not even relevant here as people might not connect their enterprise wifi networks to a typical *CPE* device.

Sor= ry, that was misworded. What I meant is that networks assign IPv6 addresses= to every CPE on the planet via DHCPv6 PD. Not that every CPE on the planet= is a DHCPv6 PD server.

> You may be correct that there are doubts on what *hosts* should do = when
> delegated a block of addresses via DHCPv6 PD, but host behaviour is no= t
> really in scope for this draft.

I see this as not really acceptable for a document has such a strong=
recommendation (section 8) for DHCPv6 PD.

(In short, I think the whole idea of using DHCPv6 PD for hosts brings
a shitload of problems with it - but if you want to go there, spell it
out so it can actually work)

I feel ver= y strongly that we should not do document what hosts need to do in this doc= ument. That is out of scope - what we're saying here is providing recom= mendations on how networks should act, not how hosts should act. If we star= t talking about hosts in this document, then we will spend a very long time= as quibbling on what is and is not in scope, and how exactly hosts should = behave. Look at how long we spent talking about DAD: that took three weeks,= even though we were basically all in agreement.

L= ike I said: on networks that require explicit requests for address space, w= e simply have no other way to assign anything that's not a handful of a= ddresses. By definition, on those networks SLAAC is not supported, so all w= e have is IA_NA. So that's the B in BCP, though it's not really so = much "Best" as "Only". We could say in the draft that r= equiring DHCPv6 is not recommended and that networks should consider SLAAC = instead, but that's bound to cause disagreement, so there's no poin= t attempting that.

We do have plenty of experience= with using DHCPv6 PD to assign addresses to things, and yes, those things = include hosts (e.g., Windows, which has supported DHCPv6 PD for close to a = decade). It's true that not all hosts and networks support this, just l= ike not all networks support DHCPv6 or SLAAC or whatever else. But some ent= erprise networks do. Our enterprise network has places on it that do PD, an= d as you might expect, the servers that hand out the prefixes neither know = nor care if it's a host or a router that requested them. And there are = DHCPv6 PD implementations for host OSes such as ISC DHCP and dibbler.
=

If your concern is that using DHCPv6 PD on a host will = cause lots of problems - what problems are you talking about? From the host= perspective it's simple. You get a prefix. You form a random address f= rom that prefix and assign it to a loopback. You use the weak host model to= use that address to send packets on your physical interface. You deal with= source address selection as if that address was assigned to the physical i= nterface. If your network stack is not smart enough to do that, you can ass= ign the random address to your interface with DAD disabled. You can even re= spond to neighbour discovery if you want, but nobody will ever ask. If you = want another address, you do the same again.

C= heers,
Lorenzo
--94eb2c0b61e8bf7b8f052769bd98-- From nobody Mon Dec 21 09:22:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C0F821A910A for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:22:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ruca_khhU2dd for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:22:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com [130.76.32.232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B3951A9106 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:22:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBLHMVV4000440; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:22:31 -0800 Received: from XCH-PHX-510.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-510.sw.nos.boeing.com [10.57.37.27]) by blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBLHMMe1000380 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:22:22 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-510.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.10.217]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:22:17 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) Thread-Index: AQHRODQ2kzeWURIM9kKzVjcf4DUI9p7PIYOrgABdLrCAAthgd4ADYHZg Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 17:22:17 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90210@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF5A@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CC39@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8DF01@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 17:22:29 -0000 Hi Philip, > -----Original Message----- > From: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com [mailto:pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com] = On Behalf Of Philip Homburg > Sent: Saturday, December 19, 2015 5:47 AM > To: v6ops@ietf.org > Cc: Templin, Fred L > Subject: Re: DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availab= ility) >=20 > Hi Fred, >=20 > >Routers are critical infrastructure. They should not go down very often > >or, if they do, they will probably go down "hard" and come back up at > >some later time. Routers that (repeatedly) go down for a few seconds > >then come back up could cause oscillations in the routing system, but > >this is no different than for any type of routing system. >=20 > That's why my example started out with 2 routers connected to the > same link both being a DHCPv6 relay. I left out the any implication > that they would be running VRRP or something. But v6 provides enough > for rapid failover even with that. >=20 > So, bringing one router down should not have much operational impact. >=20 > With PD for hosts we get a new situation where routers have to store > and share persistent state wrt prefix leases. Yes, with AERO the client has to keep in touch with its serving router(s) and change over to another if the primary one goes down. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com From nobody Mon Dec 21 09:23:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 01F9D1A9112 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:23:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.21 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.21 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Gv76p9sm1B9Q for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:23:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com [130.76.32.232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C8661A910E for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:23:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBLHNML7002282; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:23:22 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-307.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-blv-307.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.219]) by blv-mbsout-02.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBLHNFx5002184 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:23:15 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-BLV-307.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.7.230]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:23:11 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Mark Smith , Philip Homburg Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) Thread-Index: AQHRPBREVoFgi1fsq0+dVZebniQjkw== Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 17:23:11 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90227@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF5A@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CC39@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8DF01@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90227XCHBLV504nwnosb_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , 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L2Rpdj4NCjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90227XCHBLV504nwnosb_-- From nobody Mon Dec 21 09:35:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EF06A1A9129 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:35:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7kbWJnWwKZZa for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:35:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 447371A9128 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:35:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBLHZUdY045400; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:35:30 -0700 Received: from XCH-PHX-512.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-512.sw.nos.boeing.com [10.57.37.29]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBLHZQdG045342 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:35:26 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-512.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.12.149]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:35:25 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) Thread-Index: AQHRPBX5IPtAcnE3ukSmuf3yS7BEPA== Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 17:35:25 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F9025D@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <1E9125EB-D6F1-4DF2-9954-A01C1C1E07BC@cisco.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8799C@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F88967@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8BF5A@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8CC39@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8DF01@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 17:35:34 -0000 Hi Philip, > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Philip Homburg > Sent: Sunday, December 20, 2015 3:03 AM > To: v6ops@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 PD for hosts (was: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr= -availability) >=20 > >I think DHCPv6-PD is serving the same or similar function as routing > >protocols in this scenario, so I think that means that the DHCPv6-PD cli= ent > >needs to track the presence of its DHCP "neighbor" using the standard so= rts > >of neighbor presence discovery methods e.g. link state, neighbor > >advertisements or probing. > > > >For example, if NUD determines that the current PD router has gone away,= a > >DHCPv6 REBIND is triggered to see if some other available DHCP server wi= ll > >provide/facilitate the delegated prefix. >=20 > I see some problems with this approach. >=20 > The first is that ND is usually in the kernel and the DHCP client is an > application process. So the kernel would have to signal the DHCP client p= rocess > that the DHCP server is down (or the DHCP client would have to poll). Not= nice. This is all implementation details. It is quite possible to implement DHCP client in the kernel and IPv6 ND in user space. After all, the DHCP client features that are needed really amount to just a couple of messages. In the AERO implementation I announced, the DHCP client and IPv6 ND are implemented in a user process that sits on a TUN/TAP interface. So, it is in an application yes but it is not really user-level and not really = kernel level - it is somewhere in between. > Worse, NUD only comes into play when the host tries to send something to > its DHCP server. And there are many scenarios where that doesn't happen. Periodic IPv6 RS/RA probing as keepalives operates even if there is no traffic flowing. The client is responsible for keeping its association with the server alive, i.e., the same as for DHCP lease maintenance. > So the host would have to ping its DHCP every couple of seconds. Not good > for scalability. Also not good for battery usage. 30 seconds is a recommended constant. Also, this is no different that what common vpn clients already do, such as OpenVPN. I haven't really thought much about extending the length of time between probes, but it could well be that 30 seconds is far too short for some deployments and too long for others. That is why it is a configurable constant the same as for IPv6 ND constants. > Then when the network is interrupted for a short while, all hosts will > try to REBIND. But worse, because they know that the DHCP server they las= t > used is down, they would have to multicast the request. I'd like to see t= he > effect of that on a large wifi network. No, not multicast. With AERO, the client discovers a list of unicast addres= ses of potential servers. It picks one or a few of them and does a DHCPv6 PD excha= nge. If one or a few go down, it changes over to the unicast address of a new server. No multicast messaging is used. > (I have some ideas of how to solve the problem by adding stuff to ND, but > that is something for 6man). The only addition to IPv6 ND made by AERO is router-to-router redirects, an= d that has already been documented in RFC6706. Eveything else is standard IPv6 ND except unicast and not multicast. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Mon Dec 21 09:46:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 351AE1A9152 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:46:17 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.211 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.211 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AX7mgaTQdRV4 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com [130.76.32.231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D6F11A9150 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:46:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBLHkJCW024018; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:46:19 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-308.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-blv-308.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.220]) by blv-mbsout-01.boeing.com (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBLHk9sQ023462 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:46:09 -0800 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-BLV-308.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.8.111]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:46:04 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Gert Doering , Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRPBd2ccwPJyarlkG1RPcwpQXn5w== Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 17:46:04 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90289@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 17:46:17 -0000 Hi Gert, > (In short, I think the whole idea of using DHCPv6 PD for hosts brings > a shitload of problems with it - but if you want to go there, spell it > out so it can actually work) It is spelled "A-E-R-O". Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? >=20 > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culema= nn > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Mon Dec 21 09:48:21 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72D101A9150 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:48:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N-oCOVNkxBj0 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9450F1A90AC for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBLHmCgL065153; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:48:12 -0700 Received: from XCH-PHX-412.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-412.sw.nos.boeing.com [10.57.37.44]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBLHm1Wl065067 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:48:02 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-412.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.12.16]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 09:48:01 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Lorenzo Colitti , Gert Doering Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRPBe7MWrY/hfYEku50C4sEfIgaA== Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 17:48:00 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F902BC@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F902BCXCHBLV504nwnosb_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: 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CjwvZGl2Pg0KPC9ib2R5Pg0KPC9odG1sPg0K --_000_2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F902BCXCHBLV504nwnosb_-- From nobody Mon Dec 21 10:03:59 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B1871A9233 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:03:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8aPj2MxpiKVa for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:03:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77FDD1A90A1 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:03:54 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308B0602D5 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 19:03:52 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius3.space.net (moebius3.Space.Net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::250]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC67660128 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 19:03:51 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 84721 invoked by uid 1007); 21 Dec 2015 19:03:51 +0100 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 19:03:51 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: "Templin, Fred L" Message-ID: <20151221180351.GU58491@Space.Net> References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90289@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="ki8osN6LALoCW/78" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90289@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 18:03:57 -0000 --ki8osN6LALoCW/78 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 05:46:04PM +0000, Templin, Fred L wrote: > > (In short, I think the whole idea of using DHCPv6 PD for hosts brings > > a shitload of problems with it - but if you want to go there, spell it > > out so it can actually work) >=20 > It is spelled "A-E-R-O". Yes, we understand. Like, this is totally working out of the box on all clients that attach to my wifi, and the extra tunnels will magically not cause circumvention of wifi firewall policy, etc. There's enough layers of shit going on here that we are not really=20 interested in stacking yet another overlay network on top of it, no matter how good its marketing might be. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --ki8osN6LALoCW/78 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIVAwUBVng/B99WwGXkzn/FAQK9Jw/+J6uAFkp2UhIXGT0pAsfgw7Y2OrEPdrsz SU4fu5mclEmI5zSVUrNCqZlmrL6mgSo5QPQ5xN0t41+TAmzZnCfjd3Tdf89GtVJq 5VHdSb/k1yQ+9Yy70nTRjBGbFh1Ewjq6UF7cY5ll6N/S4Z6KO/0lKuj4TzvNO1Eo ZjLm03G8wvM16/jq/bPlYyW5Gjk5DwkcnYeIb6CekYNWfXAyC7jfQECn+8YEPAkV OACn7yXBlbfy0YDq6wlMwilCxMD7xL1U3DwS0pjdBkhUEVkGhfVms25YZtmUpHtF vLW4ZJ8vy0XCI12+u2bsV5kqNr3YOgy5tUQoo00uUoTcNFONKvoWktOVW2Hnkabc ze+YaUNS2CmZ84uwqe8JPpCMYnKnZPoVCjraEMIk5aTcXlznv+V+oHCHrC02MT1A HSSrz2SXqZBbgBA+iI+SIPHTbR1T+MLy4qTfbPp2ZM9prPLAuLGdF4sB/OmTznyw u0XJTlGkYj/qQRsc6KdEu6Gw4FRw6CAwQKvZcI9rYxaBDqJv5O3AiW/htSw37W07 Oi/5V21+/JcQ5Tc4ez63Ic6UcpG+y8+PC3YKOWZEoXOCN8VLAVcAm+MVaRW2Ovul 5Rrb5pm2rJOo29NFMs5zJTWKWpx3C0+cuFEGwb3mSVM9JcxGO/b3wsaY+nEEBzlt hGiNtICn9DQ= =b3z1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --ki8osN6LALoCW/78-- From nobody Mon Dec 21 10:13:31 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6FE31A92E7 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:13:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YFdvF54CKwv2 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AB531A92E0 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:13:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBLIDMKm040019; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:13:22 -0700 Received: from XCH-PHX-511.sw.nos.boeing.com (xch-phx-511.sw.nos.boeing.com [10.57.37.28]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBLIDFmZ039974 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:13:16 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-PHX-511.sw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.11.88]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:13:15 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Gert Doering Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRPBd2ccwPJyarlkG1RPcwpQXn557WQdKA//96NTA= Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 18:13:14 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90320@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90289@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221180351.GU58491@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20151221180351.GU58491@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 18:13:27 -0000 Hi Gert, > -----Original Message----- > From: Gert Doering [mailto:gert@Space.Net] > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 10:04 AM > To: Templin, Fred L > Cc: Gert Doering; Lorenzo Colitti; v6ops@ietf.org WG; v6ops-chairs@tools.= ietf.org > Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-ava= ilability-03.txt >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 05:46:04PM +0000, Templin, Fred L wrote: > > > (In short, I think the whole idea of using DHCPv6 PD for hosts brings > > > a shitload of problems with it - but if you want to go there, spell i= t > > > out so it can actually work) > > > > It is spelled "A-E-R-O". >=20 > Yes, we understand. >=20 > Like, this is totally working out of the box on all clients that attach > to my wifi, and the extra tunnels will magically not cause circumvention > of wifi firewall policy, etc. >=20 > There's enough layers of shit going on here that we are not really > interested in stacking yet another overlay network on top of it, no matte= r > how good its marketing might be. No; not "another" overlay. Speaking from the OpenVPN model, it is one and the same overlay that OpenVPN introduces. The AERO functions (DHCPv6 PD, IPv6 ND, router discovery, etc.) could be incorporated into the existin= g OpenVPN tunnel - not set up as an additional layer of encapsulation layer. Looking at it another way, the existing OpenVPN model is uni-addressing using the standard IPv6 "subnet" model - i.e., tunneling makes it look as i= f each host is attached to a shared IPv6 link and gets an address assignment from the IPv6 prefix assigned to that link. AERO is offering a different mo= del that could be adopted by OpenVPN as an alternate mode of operation. In this mode, the "link" is link-local-only, and DHCPv6 PD delivers prefixes t= o the client over the link. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? >=20 > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culema= nn > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Mon Dec 21 10:34:48 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A88F51AC39E for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:34:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BuuGImscexLW for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:34:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D9671AC3A5 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 10:34:44 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3901F6082C for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 19:34:42 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius3.space.net (moebius3.Space.Net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::250]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0A8C6010F for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 19:34:41 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 85593 invoked by uid 1007); 21 Dec 2015 19:34:41 +0100 Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 19:34:41 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: "Templin, Fred L" Message-ID: <20151221183441.GV58491@Space.Net> References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90289@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221180351.GU58491@Space.Net> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90320@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="35KUG7rixYqtz4l+" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90320@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 18:34:46 -0000 --35KUG7rixYqtz4l+ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 06:13:14PM +0000, Templin, Fred L wrote: > > Like, this is totally working out of the box on all clients that attach > > to my wifi, and the extra tunnels will magically not cause circumvention > > of wifi firewall policy, etc. > >=20 > > There's enough layers of shit going on here that we are not really > > interested in stacking yet another overlay network on top of it, no mat= ter > > how good its marketing might be. >=20 > No; not "another" overlay. Speaking from the OpenVPN model, it is one and > the same overlay that OpenVPN introduces. The AERO functions (DHCPv6 > PD, IPv6 ND, router discovery, etc.) could be incorporated into the exist= ing > OpenVPN tunnel - not set up as an additional layer of encapsulation layer. OpenVPN (and VPN in general) is totally not what *this* is talking about "attach to a network and get more than one address *from the network you are attaching to*". VPN (and, generalized, tunnels) is about "attach to some other network=20 to get addresses from that *remote* network" (and/or "get access to some resource that would not be accessible directly"). Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --35KUG7rixYqtz4l+ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIVAwUBVnhGQd9WwGXkzn/FAQIYAQ//b/wx/it4XtO02IkSJqViL+NtVcnL9zkK 0CzvzgLdRPDSzWCrGJl5Nm+rHxtFI7ivxOy4HUm6CjJUy42k2149chp4Zk5ZfL7w VkF7fi+tau3tRKGSsLxm/23D5q9h+qxs2b64JG0OfzZpYyMEnvEIofAF8FtXhKGZ eIMetSe+4nUJUjtfClxNhb+WjJD7Udev6e4dNR9Ra0XDViiEgOgYbQQjCXJE+qWs skoV7vUszrrahbXBV3MXpQZ+ptiKbwsXspV6J+YmFod2EbEqf7zd++GNi359Ac6K jM+dAATjKjj306SeIOeoOPQm3nGQcFAIS6t2Uv8r1ne5R0hHik5T3UGVMixr105p AuMiJ8l6ZrJrkSzzqwcaevoZXUmvUReiPmMewKGwfpGGZHXzk8QD1gyseCvdBYXF GJsW3MTuCoXban6vDpjE/S88F+DGQR0FFXp/r1iY8BRQHo77J7cOyuW3eU33vPjH PmZDDJFldvutkd6qL/zr2TKX2VcE2pqBNC6/OgrRVF8A8Zchfjo+XR+l8rXpbQSm n8e2aqCQUs5C1PLWW69tUSXrsSralt2buY0gIt+WB7+diAaTFiT8wq/E8DvaLryX UFaLhqhQ63J8ofsfiIdjls671MylKVGN1va/Z9cMw3MpHXNgUPOyERyovRXnxHf+ miozeX8j468= =EWId -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --35KUG7rixYqtz4l+-- From nobody Mon Dec 21 11:35:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD9A81AC418 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:35:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LTTuu5RH7ngi for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:35:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5F29B1AC416 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:35:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBLJZCqF014601; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 12:35:12 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-208.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-blv-208.nw.nos.boeing.com [10.57.37.5]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBLJZ2pj014504 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Mon, 21 Dec 2015 12:35:03 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-BLV-208.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.8.46]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 11:35:01 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Gert Doering Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRPBd2ccwPJyarlkG1RPcwpQXn557WQdKA//96NTCAAI5ogP//iR+Q Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 19:35:01 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90555@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90289@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221180351.GU58491@Space.Net> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F90320@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221183441.GV58491@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20151221183441.GV58491@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 19:35:15 -0000 Hi Gert, > -----Original Message----- > From: Gert Doering [mailto:gert@Space.Net] > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 10:35 AM > To: Templin, Fred L > Cc: Gert Doering; Lorenzo Colitti; v6ops@ietf.org WG; v6ops-chairs@tools.= ietf.org > Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-ava= ilability-03.txt >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Mon, Dec 21, 2015 at 06:13:14PM +0000, Templin, Fred L wrote: > > > Like, this is totally working out of the box on all clients that atta= ch > > > to my wifi, and the extra tunnels will magically not cause circumvent= ion > > > of wifi firewall policy, etc. > > > > > > There's enough layers of shit going on here that we are not really > > > interested in stacking yet another overlay network on top of it, no m= atter > > > how good its marketing might be. > > > > No; not "another" overlay. Speaking from the OpenVPN model, it is one a= nd > > the same overlay that OpenVPN introduces. The AERO functions (DHCPv6 > > PD, IPv6 ND, router discovery, etc.) could be incorporated into the exi= sting > > OpenVPN tunnel - not set up as an additional layer of encapsulation lay= er. >=20 > OpenVPN (and VPN in general) is totally not what *this* is talking about > "attach to a network and get more than one address *from the network you > are attaching to*". >=20 > VPN (and, generalized, tunnels) is about "attach to some other network > to get addresses from that *remote* network" (and/or "get access to some > resource that would not be accessible directly"). The AERO client is exactly a VPN client, only using a different subnet mode= l. Extending VPN systems to accommodate this alternate subnet model gives a secure, mobile and multi-addressing client. The addition being that the VPN server also acts as a DHCPv6 server and the VPN client also acts as a DHCPv6 client. I should think you would like that? Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? >=20 > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culema= nn > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Mon Dec 21 12:08:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AE881ACC8C for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 12:08:01 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "Cc" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FZmocitT4obI for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 12:07:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-he.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:470:d16a:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B02CD1ACC8A for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 12:07:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #91) id m1aB6kO-0000HGC; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 21:07:56 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:59:32 +0900 ." Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 21:07:54 +0100 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 20:08:01 -0000 >I feel very strongly that we should not do document what hosts need to do >in this document. That is out of scope - what we're saying here is >providing recommendations on how networks should act, not how hosts should >act. Maybe should you take it one step further and cut out all text on how to assign multiple addresses. For me there is no doubt that networks should provide hosts with multiple addresses. That is clearly BCP. >Like I said: on networks that require explicit requests for address space, >we simply have no other way to assign anything that's not a handful of >addresses. By definition, on those networks SLAAC is not supported, so all >we have is IA_NA. So that's the B in BCP, though it's not really so much >"Best" as "Only". So, we don't know. It might work. Nobody seems to have any experience. So cut the speculation and say that we don't know. (Alternatively, reclassify and informational and the current text is fine) >We do have plenty of experience with using DHCPv6 PD to assign addresses to >things, and yes, those things include hosts (e.g., Windows, which has >supported DHCPv6 PD for close to a decade). It's true that not all hosts >and networks support this, just like not all networks support DHCPv6 or >SLAAC or whatever else. But some enterprise networks do. Our enterprise >network has places on it that do PD, and as you might expect, the servers >that hand out the prefixes neither know nor care if it's a host or a router >that requested them. And there are DHCPv6 PD implementations for host OSes >such as ISC DHCP and dibbler. If people have been doing PD for Windows hosts for close to a decade, find somebody who has that kind of experience and describe how it works in practice. (Maybe in an informational draft) >If your concern is that using DHCPv6 PD on a host will cause lots of >problems - what problems are you talking about? From the host perspective >it's simple. You get a prefix. I described it earlier: - A host gets a prefix from DHCPv6 relay. The relay reboots, does the relay have a persistent store of the PD leases or is the host expected to poll? As far as I know, there is no text in RFC 3633 that requires persistent state in a DHCPv6 relay. Maybe I missed something. If the host is expect to poll, how does that work. You mention Windows, how do they deal with this problem. - And to spice it up, how do redundant routers, acting as DHCPv6 relays and one of them is shutdown. Again is this something the network has to handle, or is this the resposibility of the host. It is just not documented. If PD for hosts is used in practice, then somebody must have dealt with this problem. I don't see how this is 'simple'. From nobody Mon Dec 21 14:48:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEFB71ACE28 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 14:48:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id We_DZ12MGWTT for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 14:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x232.google.com (mail-vk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A09BA1ACE25 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 14:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk0-x232.google.com with SMTP id a188so109929264vkc.0 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 14:48:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=Kbt32DOIpT39R6pK3x7LMf6MfR8xEGfJX6Sgx97eHpE=; b=RCQVbK2tVDsJVaCoH6d8Gx0CUU3zF4cIgNozS9Xk8yditKBtH+zdetyzz8hhm+VYYM e4IjmhLhQq1eUOlO4zv2Oq9t5UTA56xMwhbSik8bF1g/XoF0n0U6Yha9mdsf23cZ2t8u xBGsc2u0cXOhfEPcOASNKemy3CAasqGeEG6BOjXbAPFDaW6F3GXEcTPvS5wsKkd2aMNx szBLSY1DXzOkkePEk1z6h+0ytv3RT9REEZvfnN7zLlO7Pq4erouhzGTpjydmdOHI49cE BVQoXBJmfYwccE+1B9h3fJOl9aujmUqTfdemmCqjoo11jb2IMP/ztBdayIu2swBJ9hw0 rHyg== X-Received: by 10.31.107.138 with SMTP id k10mr12986287vki.27.1450738111821; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 14:48:31 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.99.1 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 14:48:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> From: Mark Smith Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:48:02 +1100 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 22:48:34 -0000 On 22 December 2015 at 07:07, Philip Homburg wrote: > >>If your concern is that using DHCPv6 PD on a host will cause lots of >>problems - what problems are you talking about? From the host perspective >>it's simple. You get a prefix. > > I described it earlier: > - A host gets a prefix from DHCPv6 relay. The relay reboots, does the > relay have a persistent store of the PD leases or is the host expected > to poll? > > As far as I know, there is no text in RFC 3633 that requires persistent state > in a DHCPv6 relay. Maybe I missed something. > > If the host is expect to poll, how does that work. You mention Windows, > how do they deal with this problem. > How do CPE using DHCPv6-PD deal with this problem (because they do)? > - And to spice it up, how do redundant routers, acting as DHCPv6 relays and > one of them is shutdown. Again is this something the network has > to handle, or is this the resposibility of the host. It is just not > documented. If PD for hosts is used in practice, then somebody must have > dealt with this problem. > How do CPE using DHCPv6-PD deal with this problem (because they do)? I think you and others might be making this problem harder than it is. These "hosts" using DHCPv6-PD are really no more than routers that are only forwarding packets they originate from an internal interface, such as NTP, DNS or SIP for a POTS port. RFC6204 ("Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers") from 2011 described how the CPE was to use some of its delegated space to for its own purposes, assigned to an internal virtual network: WAA-8: If the IPv6 CE router does not acquire global IPv6 address(es) from either SLAAC or DHCPv6, then it MUST create global IPv6 address(es) from its delegated prefix(es) and configure those on one of its internal virtual network interfaces. So take that spec, disconnect the LAN interface, and you have a "host" using DHCPv6-PD that is only sending and receiving traffic for its own locally running applications. The only gap I can see is in the multicast domain because ISPs don't provide multicast routing services to routers that aren't running a fully fledged multicast routing protocol. So if we want to solve that without requiring the CPEhosts to run PIM, we either need to send MLD messages for the internal network group membership on the WANphysical LAN interface of the CPE host, or have a mechanism in DHCPv6 performs the equivalent multicast function. I agree that detail like that probably shouldn't be in this draft, however I don't think this is such an unknown and un-understood scenario that mentioning DHCPv6-PD as a possible method to facilitate it is a problem. Regards, Mark. From nobody Mon Dec 21 15:25:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09D91ACE7D for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:25:25 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <2h4K980ocp0l> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "Cc" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2h4K980ocp0l for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:25:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-he.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:470:d16a:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA4B01ACE7B for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:25:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #91) id m1aB9pS-0000I8C; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 00:25:22 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:48:02 +1100 ." Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 00:25:19 +0100 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:25:25 -0000 >How do CPE using DHCPv6-PD deal with this problem (because they do)? In some cases it is easy. For example, with ppp(oe), any reboot of the router will trigger a link failure and then after the link is up again an DHCP rebind. No idea how it works for ethernet-like links. From nobody Mon Dec 21 15:28:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 722511ACE89 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:28:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QmHAnCG3fgzm for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:28:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x22a.google.com (mail-yk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04CA91ACE71 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:28:13 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yk0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id 140so146914195ykp.0 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:28:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=Zfw2PmRbwPo4Nh9aFg9hzwZHLgPBbXxsthBHmuep5ug=; b=hvD9wcvlZ7I0+JGBT+U+6t7F7sM1ExetrnvtNxpssFRp1IzbO6rKCu4Ps+yO3jB18h 0yKvXgVJQsgo/pXoKxw73A7OsidzsGZA8ba0ApoBaW0ULaFif24L8bCQpXvXQAL7cpaZ ZvNmj0WZTtR2MfGkTvRiGin5fuRrvLfuECGi7JLa5BRUSxbsjpTxwQcet/8dreqbwIpS SZKr8JIHnqSlMG5ZZu0rYZ77AH+MwAlNFVpLGKLEJE9iv9aMx8Q2TeUmn45z9VqR7kBv TdN1PH7jVqw9h15ivvinI9OD8qaGclgfWFAvtuLluLZ8/XVIwtOMl97gnWGJncr3Ebv+ 16sQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=Zfw2PmRbwPo4Nh9aFg9hzwZHLgPBbXxsthBHmuep5ug=; b=W7bfs3LepQIm10HMvSapb+hiGGyrPDcTZ40B1eYbCVMXRAc2NLLFdlNcKAgN70Y4gp pDJKSthaS4vmnU9AZbO0+TuKQP3kzRM6dHjR3Dt37z6DTii5kdZVFhEDnEBm5BCWn2bI ty/LnoK+T5D8uk5l73zfU1w8/TwnscCpQeVvooJEZKytKgoUvjZiVhAMdXKqPvH6IzHG EIMwKsvxvJzFg4E8sE4pUIoPTv/Ug/yYVUB06aK4WCswZJlqhkSJEWvV1xTZZ4MmkPl0 8SQKSykfYpY9Wi6jM2Q8ZrCMp4AAF0ohQMFB9muHGm4F2sp408xOqKp+KPSSVNXneyNy dRVg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmdX0aIhO//loXhM0tNNLBDSL+V+vfOIGTWqg0OXqdR3o8ON1E5WUEMrmgYN+lSMRDK6zWMlAElZ+XU7PXPdqjtbfTv/i5OHjwwslCA+8uSnChnWcY= X-Received: by 10.129.157.79 with SMTP id u76mr19432610ywg.123.1450740492224; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:28:12 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:27:52 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:27:52 +0900 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0b61e8b3c355052770d7a2 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:28:14 -0000 --94eb2c0b61e8b3c355052770d7a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 5:07 AM, Philip Homburg wrote: > > Maybe should you take it one step further and cut out all text on how to > assign multiple addresses. > > For me there is no doubt that networks should provide hosts with > multiple addresses. That is clearly BCP. > I don't think that would work. How can we have a BCP that say "networks should provide more than 32 addresses" without specifying how to do that? Are you expecting the readers to figure out for themselves that this means "use SLAAC or DHCPv6 PD, but not DHCPv6 NA"? Even if that is the conclusion they come to, won't they ask themselves why that isn't in the document? >If your concern is that using DHCPv6 PD on a host will cause lots of > >problems - what problems are you talking about? From the host perspective > >it's simple. You get a prefix. > > I described it earlier: > - A host gets a prefix from DHCPv6 relay. The relay reboots, does the > relay have a persistent store of the PD leases or is the host expected > to poll? > That question is not specific to DHCPv6 PD or even to DHCPv6. It is a general question about DHCP. Remove "PD" from the sentence and replace "prefix" with "address" and you have a question about DHCPv6 address assignment. Or even, for extra fun, replace "DHCPv6" with "DHCP" and now you have a question about DHCPv4. Because the question applies equally well to DHCPv6 address assignment and DHCPv6 PD, it is out of scope for a document whose only recommendation about DHCPv6 is "if you are using DHCPv6, use it to provide prefixes, not addresses". - And to spice it up, how do redundant routers, acting as DHCPv6 relays and > one of them is shutdown. Again is this something the network has > to handle, or is this the resposibility of the host. It is just not > documented. If PD for hosts is used in practice, then somebody must have > dealt with this problem. > > I don't see how this is 'simple'. > Again, that problem applies just as well to DHCPv6 address assignment as DHCPv6 PD. --94eb2c0b61e8b3c355052770d7a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= ue, Dec 22, 2015 at 5:07 AM, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-4@u-1.ph= icoh.com> wrote:
Maybe should you take it one= step further and cut out all text on how to
assign multiple addresses.

For me there is no doubt that networks should provide hosts with
multiple addresses. That is clearly BCP.

I don't think that would work. How can we have a BCP that say "n= etworks should provide more than 32 addresses" without specifying how = to do that? Are you expecting the readers to figure out for themselves that= this means "use SLAAC or DHCPv6 PD, but not DHCPv6 NA"? Even if = that is the conclusion they come to, won't they ask themselves why that= isn't in the document?

>If you= r concern is that using DHCPv6 PD on a host will cause lots of
>problems - what problems are you talking about? From the host perspecti= ve
>it's simple. You get a prefix.

I described it earlier:
- A host gets a prefix from DHCPv6 relay. The relay reboots, does the
=C2=A0 relay have a persistent store of the PD leases or is the host expect= ed
=C2=A0 to poll?

That question is not sp= ecific to DHCPv6 PD or even to DHCPv6. It is a general question about DHCP.=

Remove "PD" from the sentence and repla= ce "prefix" with "address" and you have a question abou= t DHCPv6 address assignment. Or even, for extra fun, replace "DHCPv6&q= uot; with "DHCP" and now you have a question about DHCPv4.
<= div>
Because the question applies equally well to DHCPv6 addr= ess assignment and DHCPv6 PD, it is out of scope for a document whose only = recommendation about DHCPv6 is "if you are using DHCPv6, use it to pro= vide prefixes, not addresses".

- And to spice it up, how do redundant routers, acting as DHCPv6 relays and=
=C2=A0 one of them is shutdown. Again is this something the network has
=C2=A0 to handle, or is this the resposibility of the host. It is just not<= br> =C2=A0 documented. If PD for hosts is used in practice, then somebody must = have
=C2=A0 dealt with this problem.

I don't see how this is 'simple'.

Again, that problem applies just as well to DHCPv6 address assignmen= t as DHCPv6 PD.
--94eb2c0b61e8b3c355052770d7a2-- From nobody Mon Dec 21 15:47:17 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC04A1ACE9B for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:47:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s1UOVMo7yao5 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:47:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x234.google.com (mail-vk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A61C01ACE9A for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:47:14 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk0-x234.google.com with SMTP id f2so70661991vkb.3 for ; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:47:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=GIuZ4ZFI55GtEHCQEmjzHq7OLl4jl0bA/z1hvEVmYbA=; b=TxXdKiGVTnsGJ41MjiI6JzVByFCjFGC93NqC8W+GG19rlsP2mUsK1uRCEjzIkX6N8e 8DOU7J8RPn08V9ZGemP4l3jw/1nPUw3i7YszktYd/yCRRDppL5T9mwLFiGQBylY3tAYo rzao0QChH+/2PM7BP7KONL9eKSbrTTkfYNvR5fu2c7XQt2AUUQFyGPRj+AdOsaF8m+vb zlkZJgkvyGY8B0HvhU507puB6/AgD8mazX+lO4MIm0sGNNPmfxXCFIMbdeQUPbM3WGZm IjyDHM77bT27EiEmmIIWnu6PvIp+PjCC1D82stoQ7kRZwSqXN6NNBEgSF1gWfMxhV2rO 9WOQ== X-Received: by 10.31.188.200 with SMTP id m191mr14282590vkf.102.1450741633772; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:47:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.99.1 with HTTP; Mon, 21 Dec 2015 15:46:44 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> From: Mark Smith Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 10:46:44 +1100 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 21 Dec 2015 23:47:16 -0000 On 22 December 2015 at 10:25, Philip Homburg wrote: >>How do CPE using DHCPv6-PD deal with this problem (because they do)? > > In some cases it is easy. For example, with ppp(oe), any reboot of the > router will trigger a link failure and then after the link is up again > an DHCP rebind. > So on PPPoE links, as there is (usually) no direct physical link between the CPE and the BRAS/BNG, they both monitor each others' presence using LCP Echo Requests/Replies i.e., keep alives, with intervals that are usually measured in seconds e.g., 10 through 60. > No idea how it works for ethernet-like links. > > I don't have experience in this area, although being close to it, I was aware that they were doing something to monitor liveness, and I would have guessed ARP or NUD because they can't be firewalled without things completely stopping working. Some searching has turned up this Broadband Forum Technical Report, which says Ethernet OAM, ARP, NUD or BFD are methods. "TR-146 Subscriber Sessions" https://www.broadband-forum.org/technical/download/TR-146.pdf Regards, Mark. From nobody Tue Dec 22 04:00:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E130D1A0158 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 04:00:37 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <5EbRTygfGczq> X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "Cc" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5EbRTygfGczq for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 04:00:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-he.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:470:d16a:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 043141A0145 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 04:00:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #91) id m1aBLcC-0000JGC; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 13:00:28 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Dec 2015 10:46:44 +1100 ." Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 13:00:26 +0100 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 12:00:38 -0000 >I don't have experience in this area, although being close to it, I >was aware that they were doing something to monitor liveness, and I >would have guessed ARP or NUD because they can't be firewalled without >things completely stopping working. Some searching has turned up this >Broadband Forum Technical Report, which says Ethernet OAM, ARP, NUD or >BFD are methods. > >"TR-146 Subscriber Sessions" >https://www.broadband-forum.org/technical/download/TR-146.pdf It would be nice if we actually had RFCs for this stuff. But the using BFD (see Section 6.2.2) looks like an interesting approach. From nobody Tue Dec 22 07:38:14 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEF251A1A88 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 07:38:13 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Duplicate header field: "Cc" X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KIZ0g8w2Y_0x for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 07:38:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo.hq.phicoh.net [130.37.15.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72DD01A1A7E for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 07:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #91) id m1aBP0o-0000I0C; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 16:38:06 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bBB316E3E@u-1.phicoh.com References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:27:52 +0900 ." Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 16:38:03 +0100 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 15:38:14 -0000 >> For me there is no doubt that networks should provide hosts with >> multiple addresses. That is clearly BCP. > >I don't think that would work. How can we have a BCP that say "networks >should provide more than 32 addresses" without specifying how to do that? >Are you expecting the readers to figure out for themselves that this means >"use SLAAC or DHCPv6 PD, but not DHCPv6 NA"? Even if that is the conclusion >they come to, won't they ask themselves why that isn't in the document? Given that we never actually defined how DHCPv6 PD for hosts is supposed to work, let alone have any experience, readers will have to figure that out for themselves anyhow. In some sense, the broadband forum TR-146 provides a nice gap analysis. >> I described it earlier: >> - A host gets a prefix from DHCPv6 relay. The relay reboots, does the >> relay have a persistent store of the PD leases or is the host expected >> to poll? >> >That question is not specific to DHCPv6 PD or even to DHCPv6. It is a >general question about DHCP. > >Remove "PD" from the sentence and replace "prefix" with "address" and you >have a question about DHCPv6 address assignment. Or even, for extra fun, >replace "DHCPv6" with "DHCP" and now you have a question about DHCPv4. Not at all. In DHCPv4, you only have dynamic state at the DHCPv4 server if you dynamically allocate addresses. And the only goal of the dynamic state is to avoid handing out the same address twice. In addition, DHCPv4 relays have no state. In contrast, in general a DHCPv6 PD delegating router has to have dynamic state even if the prefix allocation is static (on a multi-access link you need to know the link local address of the recipient). In addition the role in DHCP may be that of a relay. And in the case of multiple relays you would have to synchronise the state between relays (for which we don't have any protocol at the moment). So from my point of view, this is completely different. Note that the broadband forum requires (for PD) the client to refresh the state. So their model is completely different from the traditional DHCP where the DHCP server has to keep track of leases. So that's a first high level choice we haven't made yet: is the network responsible for PD leases and associated state, or does the client have to refresh the lease when something seems broken (but the lease is otherwise not expired). From nobody Tue Dec 22 07:43:35 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F23E1A1A99 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 07:43:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.91 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.91 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vrRf7D3ibsPn for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 07:43:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4BF6E1A1A97 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 07:43:31 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75E9C60760 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 16:43:29 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius3.space.net (moebius3.Space.Net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::250]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7203660128 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 16:43:28 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 69735 invoked by uid 1007); 22 Dec 2015 16:43:28 +0100 Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 16:43:28 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Mark Smith Message-ID: <20151222154328.GZ58491@Space.Net> References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 15:43:34 -0000 Hi, On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 09:48:02AM +1100, Mark Smith wrote: > > - A host gets a prefix from DHCPv6 relay. The relay reboots, does the > > relay have a persistent store of the PD leases or is the host expected > > to poll? > > > > As far as I know, there is no text in RFC 3633 that requires persistent state > > in a DHCPv6 relay. Maybe I missed something. > > > > If the host is expect to poll, how does that work. You mention Windows, > > how do they deal with this problem. > > How do CPE using DHCPv6-PD deal with this problem (because they do)? For PPP based developments, this is fairly easy - if the upstream router (which has to be relay or server, given that PPP is a point-to-point link) dies, their PPP session dies, and on re-establishment of the PPP session, everything is refreshed. I have no idea how this is done in cable or "plain IP over ethernet" style attachments. Maybe short lease times, or "the headend is only ever rebooted in maintenance windows"? > > - And to spice it up, how do redundant routers, acting as DHCPv6 relays and > > one of them is shutdown. Again is this something the network has > > to handle, or is this the resposibility of the host. It is just not > > documented. If PD for hosts is used in practice, then somebody must have > > dealt with this problem. > > How do CPE using DHCPv6-PD deal with this problem (because they do)? Not really. Can you back the "because they do" statement by a description *how* it is done? That would certainly help those here that have no idea how to do it, like, me. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Tue Dec 22 08:57:15 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DC97E1A8879 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:57:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.394 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.394 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8xNg4OCfYGtB for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:57:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4101F1A87D7 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:57:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B9D44E; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:57:11 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:date :date:in-reply-to:from:from:subject:subject:mime-version :content-type:content-type:received:received; s=mail; t= 1450803429; bh=pj/uf9KSEd07ko2fFTTJZJTcrXmyUWAQ46Rhnsy5TGo=; b=X 4DWE6rDYrfHFUhGWNKGYWuJdmzaGFReNOJh7Y6F0tSzbYqcC5KJRkG0J1h7fBxxS 0gr50qoEpoqFC4T9V+DE1HcIDYZmIfyAdEtt4oEdK+d0v3W/pjHLINK4FHJxroDd kpUVkpNnKkrk9c8JmPfrtFg2/qjQDyhGq5ELDQCwps= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id A4VhK-umADos; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:57:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:8640:1::57a:2abc:207c:d8f1] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:8640:1:0:57a:2abc:207c:d8f1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0AEE44C; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:57:09 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann In-Reply-To: <20151222154328.GZ58491@Space.Net> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:57:08 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8957301A-4828-4CBF-B5A4-EDB4C5C992F5@steffann.nl> References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> <20151222154328.GZ58491@Space.Net> To: =?utf-8?Q?Gert_D=C3=B6ring?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 16:57:15 -0000 Hi, > Op 22 dec. 2015, om 16:43 heeft Gert Doering het = volgende geschreven: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 09:48:02AM +1100, Mark Smith wrote: >>> - A host gets a prefix from DHCPv6 relay. The relay reboots, does = the >>> relay have a persistent store of the PD leases or is the host = expected >>> to poll? >>>=20 >>> As far as I know, there is no text in RFC 3633 that requires = persistent state >>> in a DHCPv6 relay. Maybe I missed something. >>>=20 >>> If the host is expect to poll, how does that work. You mention = Windows, >>> how do they deal with this problem. >>=20 >> How do CPE using DHCPv6-PD deal with this problem (because they do)? >=20 > For PPP based developments, this is fairly easy - if the upstream = router > (which has to be relay or server, given that PPP is a point-to-point = link)=20 > dies, their PPP session dies, and on re-establishment of the PPP = session, > everything is refreshed. >=20 > I have no idea how this is done in cable or "plain IP over ethernet" = style > attachments. Maybe short lease times, or "the headend is only ever > rebooted in maintenance windows"? The way we do it is: - two routers at the ISP side, both sending RAs - the CPE decides which gateway to use based on RA priority and NUD = (might switch to HSRP/VRRP/etc for unpredictable CPEs) - both routers are DHCPv6 relays listening on multicast - so the DHCPv6 server gets every client request twice: once through = each relay - the DHCPv6 server replies through both relays so both can update their = routing table - store the DHCPv6 database on persistent storage in the router for = faster recovery after reboot - redistribute the prefix-to-CPE routes between the routers so if one = loses the route the traffic can go through the other router - a router that lost the route will get it at the next DHCPv6 = bind/renew/rebind (which is unrelated to lease time as DHCPv6 replies = can explicitly specify renew/rebind timers) And in the ethernet stuff between our router and the CPE you probably = want switches that can do DHCPv6 snooping and enforcement. And/or a = router that can match the source MAC address of packets sent by a CPE = against the DHCPv6-PD and ND tables to make sure that customers don't = spoof each others prefixes/addresses. These last bits aren't easy to = solve with current equipment. Cheers, Sander From nobody Tue Dec 22 08:59:26 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3D121A88DE for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:59:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8TQYLEAkrJqu for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x22d.google.com (mail-yk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F0D91A887B for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:59:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id x184so171158557yka.3 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:59:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=w9yn4L5UxQin7b6HCwWNRX0JBPju6H2ZOM74Nv0BcDk=; b=cZE0Dlfvn33BHzLgPnvwduuJZRB6jvbxigI5SKgFQ9RtZpYV0ZvAQLzVXxBDsN73Fa RYUXFLaDh1c5CvH8mSXfuVTQDo9jnDTuBSKkaMAv2ERtbpNCQCCpT+MGTG575ndS46WC WThLVa0P+7fIHmsg/UBCX0jpRw8VpEZ2hsvGx18oscU/50Wlo3zY0/1eTvONH/OTqoxl tEJbHLjhnF/awVKOil1kpuMxo8JjCwrq/aoAp9T+3yBQUI439JvCS41kDZlUtENYO2SP uWTKL/uczrBVmE/VA9swYyqqe42w3l8GnKxErjYGEreB7zIIOtc0kDXOqU9q+eShfgkE SF9g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=w9yn4L5UxQin7b6HCwWNRX0JBPju6H2ZOM74Nv0BcDk=; b=kxM69BhAoavb08yZ3wv6DoyMgBi6A4RM+vpFTpMHwRMg2XWYqm1cEx8XagwsPocxYd haR2PCxxFYok8ophyx8qkpMOQDFhf1KQsqNgboUWYGtmVl4dY8A2tEDa2P+Hp6uWYXjL o4bjCea/I4b7sko3/4SAsDFBBJsXHq/+XZdHMalNArpJGMnGi6KnRV+N5VtuCSOxjIh8 uWM1JI+RcbjRShXV8UACXue6Sa096esD57VB9wL5qFXaifDJ6tRTyI4vct7mGJdxWz53 rZLzfeYa52onDWITDBS4nDjFBecj/4s0bFX+vUmZ3AUwdSlCPQtd+k4AfrtKGRCtg9OH thpA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkmn6vNbqSPhDYtCmI0IMy2nfslbGbOQV/OK2/ej1wNaTcp/j3YaVwHjF02m181KrJ8H/u7x4PmHn4K9iQ9kVrTU20rBqlRS+c3gLLlLOchbOoko1w= X-Received: by 10.129.157.79 with SMTP id u76mr22947695ywg.123.1450803562165; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:59:22 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 08:59:02 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 01:59:02 +0900 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0b61e8f6c5f205277f86db Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 16:59:25 -0000 --94eb2c0b61e8f6c5f205277f86db Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:38 AM, Philip Homburg wrote: > Given that we never actually defined how DHCPv6 PD for hosts is supposed > to work, let alone have any experience, readers will have to figure that > out > for themselves anyhow. > Have we defined how it's supposed to work for routers? If so, why can't we just say that it will work in the same way for hosts? The reason I ask is that if you go and look at the RFCs I think you'll find that this is much less specified than you seem to think it is. In contrast, in general a DHCPv6 PD delegating router has to have > dynamic state even if the prefix allocation is static (on a multi-access > link you need to know the link local address of the recipient). In > addition the role in DHCP may be that of a relay. And in the case of > multiple relays you would have to synchronise the state between relays > (for which we don't have any protocol at the moment). > Can you find where all that is documented in an RFC? It's certainly not specified in RFC 3633. If not, why do we need to document it here? I think your "in general, X has to be Y" statement is based on a large number of assumptions about the use case that you may not even be aware of. Here are some assumptions that you are making that are not at all required by RFC 3633: - That relays route general data traffic and not just DHCPv6 requests. - That DHCPv6 relays snoop packets, keep state, and inject routing. - That if there is more than one relay, that exactly one (as opposed to none, or more than one) will snoop the reply, and that only that one is going to be the only router to send traffic to the delegated prefix. - That the clients are always connected via multi-access links and not point-to-point. - ... You're also assuming that DHCPv6 address assignment always uses directly-connected shared subnets which implicitly provides the routing information you say is lacking in DHCPv6 PD. But that might not be the case - it's certainly not required by the protocol.. For example clients could get random unaggregated /128s on point-to-point interfaces, where there is no implicit routing. And so on. So I think you're narrowly focusing on the way you think DHCPv6 PD should work and assuming that that is what the standards say, but it's not. The RFCs only define the protocol. I don't think they even talk about reply snooping, which I think you're not just assuming but taking for granted. > So that's a first high level choice we haven't made yet: is the network > responsible for PD leases and associated state, or does the client have > to refresh the lease when something seems broken (but the lease is > otherwise > not expired). > That's a client behaviour decision, which should be out of scope of this document. We have to draw the line somewhere, and this draft is about the behaviour of networks, not of clients. --94eb2c0b61e8f6c5f205277f86db Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, Dec 23, 2015 at 12:38 AM, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-4@u-1.ph= icoh.com> wrote:
Given that we never ac= tually defined how DHCPv6 PD for hosts is supposed
to work, let alone have any experience, readers will have to figure that ou= t
for themselves anyhow.

Have we defined = how it's supposed to work for routers? If so, why can't we just say= that it will work in the same way for hosts? The reason I ask is that if y= ou go and look at the RFCs I think you'll find that this is much less s= pecified than you seem to think it is.

In contrast, in general a DHCPv6 PD delegating router has to have
dynamic state even if the prefix allocation is static (on a multi-access link you need to know the link local address of the recipient). In
addition the role in DHCP may be that of a relay. And in the case of
multiple relays you would have to synchronise the state between relays
(for which we don't have any protocol at the moment).
<= div>
Can you find where all that is documented in an RFC? It&= #39;s certainly not specified in RFC 3633. If not, why do we need to docume= nt it here?

I think your "in general, X has t= o be Y" statement is based on a large number of assumptions about the = use case that you may not even be aware of. Here are some assumptions that = you are making that are not at all required by RFC 3633:
  • = That=C2=A0relays route general data traffic and not just DHCPv6 requests.
  • That DHCPv6 relays snoop packets, keep state, and inject routing.
  • That if there is more than one relay, that exactly one (as oppose= d to none, or more than one) will snoop the reply, and that only that one i= s going to be the only router to send traffic to the delegated prefix.
    • =
  • That the clients are always connected via multi-access links and not po= int-to-point.
  • ...
You're also assuming that DHCPv= 6 address assignment always uses directly-connected shared subnets which im= plicitly provides the routing information you say is lacking in DHCPv6 PD. = But that might not be the case - it's certainly not required by the pro= tocol.. For example clients could get random unaggregated /128s on point-to= -point interfaces, where there is no implicit routing. And so on.

So I think you're narrowly focusing on the way yo= u think DHCPv6 PD should work and assuming that that is what the standards = say, but it's not. The RFCs only define the protocol. I don't think= they even talk about reply snooping, which I think you're not just ass= uming but taking for granted.
=C2=A0
= So that's a first high level choice we haven't made yet: is the net= work
responsible for PD leases and associated state, or does the client have
to refresh the lease when something seems broken (but the lease is otherwis= e
not expired).

That's a client behav= iour decision, which should be out of scope of this document. We have to dr= aw the line somewhere, and this draft is about the behaviour of networks, n= ot of clients.
--94eb2c0b61e8f6c5f205277f86db-- From nobody Tue Dec 22 09:02:50 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4131A877A for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:02:49 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.388 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.388 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FM_FORGED_GMAIL=0.622, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q7bz4vDqhOqp for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:02:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yk0-x236.google.com (mail-yk0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c07::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4A651A887B for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:02:46 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yk0-x236.google.com with SMTP id x184so171273394yka.3 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:02:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-type; bh=zDU63MWljgpEB6bnejDUfXvU2uG0I8jAX8VcM70w2DQ=; b=IpOs7M6JtYMOwHYtbF3+kZM9aAV7uq+Q+xVtYgU0MMQRANTx/nfjA2TC/RAdZTIwBW ujO2bK1YinbGbm2CC5PqD1ZcNYbuaB+H7J/0ww0GuyEN5uN1cyDra6XD4lcL3foIZOHB 7TW49e1gIxy7ckHnnzJbfXE8QS4W4x7R5ILfqgFjRJPAZQqz4eI0D7AwO++eUzELsgM9 bu0xyNzAGNOzjXiA4A85JYxJo7iqPXDdu1em1q27NVNMKyCLyAbP6neTsmGBFQsFvyuV qx7M2GAPmHXmXVcnLO5tHNOJIqlrxLOJcDboQnYJ+afb9dSYPzSnytvk8Ody1ZuQKIC5 Srmw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-type; bh=zDU63MWljgpEB6bnejDUfXvU2uG0I8jAX8VcM70w2DQ=; b=LgPtrdMDDvznEJw955Rwpjrm7CpTpTKsiAB4R/MVt10fUihaUAvf1WzDzaXCE14E23 DJNnFtV+WE6MmlSpQPNlZNNLFDDIqIHzZiGOMq5ISJxbN5Khhi8oMqvVH4lO0QEHRIrV Sh9wigSa/1fyBlefx8rUkiP8Mj+f+piOaS0g7bVzgf9wjBgoaAJX1HXhU4xr6VkjuBoR N2x+mpUPQDG4NAI8tfuPCWFCrq0RIx03Ka6nPp/hkBwwbW4NvdNdF5alqdpTfVil99n+ 546Rx4l26rowq6RqBG5M/jQeSn7sW3JLU/DWo6WdTQI/EJkpuU6Fb1YfRVSxSltp225g AcpA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQk1X3Iql13FVEN83v6DjkQ/li0g8KIo8sbAsqkjr1NcIHwlruHFDusw62RhmOL0Mwc4T6xPNuqIZ1/lqwG3HDQk3zieYovpwuOGUuk9BLfmHJlxJ3g= X-Received: by 10.129.41.17 with SMTP id p17mr19616247ywp.160.1450803766006; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:02:46 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.115.5 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:02:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8957301A-4828-4CBF-B5A4-EDB4C5C992F5@steffann.nl> References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> <20151222154328.GZ58491@Space.Net> <8957301A-4828-4CBF-B5A4-EDB4C5C992F5@steffann.nl> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 23 Dec 2015 02:02:26 +0900 Message-ID: To: Sander Steffann Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11407ee81d147905277f9365 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:02:49 -0000 --001a11407ee81d147905277f9365 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 What Sander said. Before someone says that this should be documented somewhere. I agree, it should. But not in this document :-) On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 1:57 AM, Sander Steffann wrote: > Hi, > > > Op 22 dec. 2015, om 16:43 heeft Gert Doering het > volgende geschreven: > > > > Hi, > > > > On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 09:48:02AM +1100, Mark Smith wrote: > >>> - A host gets a prefix from DHCPv6 relay. The relay reboots, does the > >>> relay have a persistent store of the PD leases or is the host expected > >>> to poll? > >>> > >>> As far as I know, there is no text in RFC 3633 that requires > persistent state > >>> in a DHCPv6 relay. Maybe I missed something. > >>> > >>> If the host is expect to poll, how does that work. You mention > Windows, > >>> how do they deal with this problem. > >> > >> How do CPE using DHCPv6-PD deal with this problem (because they do)? > > > > For PPP based developments, this is fairly easy - if the upstream router > > (which has to be relay or server, given that PPP is a point-to-point > link) > > dies, their PPP session dies, and on re-establishment of the PPP session, > > everything is refreshed. > > > > I have no idea how this is done in cable or "plain IP over ethernet" > style > > attachments. Maybe short lease times, or "the headend is only ever > > rebooted in maintenance windows"? > > The way we do it is: > - two routers at the ISP side, both sending RAs > - the CPE decides which gateway to use based on RA priority and NUD (might > switch to HSRP/VRRP/etc for unpredictable CPEs) > - both routers are DHCPv6 relays listening on multicast > - so the DHCPv6 server gets every client request twice: once through each > relay > - the DHCPv6 server replies through both relays so both can update their > routing table > - store the DHCPv6 database on persistent storage in the router for faster > recovery after reboot > - redistribute the prefix-to-CPE routes between the routers so if one > loses the route the traffic can go through the other router > - a router that lost the route will get it at the next DHCPv6 > bind/renew/rebind (which is unrelated to lease time as DHCPv6 replies can > explicitly specify renew/rebind timers) > > And in the ethernet stuff between our router and the CPE you probably want > switches that can do DHCPv6 snooping and enforcement. And/or a router that > can match the source MAC address of packets sent by a CPE against the > DHCPv6-PD and ND tables to make sure that customers don't spoof each others > prefixes/addresses. These last bits aren't easy to solve with current > equipment. > > Cheers, > Sander > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --001a11407ee81d147905277f9365 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
What Sander said.

Before someone says that thi= s should be documented somewhere. I agree, it should. But not in this docum= ent :-)

On Wed, Dec 23, 2015 at 1:57 AM, Sander Steffann <sander@steffann.nl> wrote:
Hi,

> Op 22 dec. 2015, om 16:43 heeft Gert Doering <gert@space.net> het volgende geschreven:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 09:48:02AM +1100, Mark Smith wrote:
>>> - A host gets a prefix from DHCPv6 relay. The relay reboots, d= oes the
>>>=C2=A0 relay have a persistent store of the PD leases or is the= host expected
>>>=C2=A0 to poll?
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 As far as I know, there is no text in RFC 3633 that requ= ires persistent state
>>>=C2=A0 in a DHCPv6 relay. Maybe I missed something.
>>>
>>>=C2=A0 If the host is expect to poll, how does that work. You m= ention Windows,
>>>=C2=A0 how do they deal with this problem.
>>
>> How do CPE using DHCPv6-PD deal with this problem (because they do= )?
>
> For PPP based developments, this is fairly easy - if the upstream rout= er
> (which has to be relay or server, given that PPP is a point-to-point l= ink)
> dies, their PPP session dies, and on re-establishment of the PPP sessi= on,
> everything is refreshed.
>
> I have no idea how this is done in cable or "plain IP over ethern= et" style
> attachments.=C2=A0 Maybe short lease times, or "the headend is on= ly ever
> rebooted in maintenance windows"?

The way we do it is:
- two routers at the ISP side, both sending RAs
- the CPE decides which gateway to use based on RA priority and NUD (might = switch to HSRP/VRRP/etc for unpredictable CPEs)
- both routers are DHCPv6 relays listening on multicast
- so the DHCPv6 server gets every client request twice: once through each r= elay
- the DHCPv6 server replies through both relays so both can update their ro= uting table
- store the DHCPv6 database on persistent storage in the router for faster = recovery after reboot
- redistribute the prefix-to-CPE routes between the routers so if one loses= the route the traffic can go through the other router
- a router that lost the route will get it at the next DHCPv6 bind/renew/re= bind (which is unrelated to lease time as DHCPv6 replies can explicitly spe= cify renew/rebind timers)

And in the ethernet stuff between our router and the CPE you probably want = switches that can do DHCPv6 snooping and enforcement. And/or a router that = can match the source MAC address of packets sent by a CPE against the DHCPv= 6-PD and ND tables to make sure that customers don't spoof each others = prefixes/addresses. These last bits aren't easy to solve with current e= quipment.

Cheers,
Sander

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--001a11407ee81d147905277f9365-- From nobody Tue Dec 22 09:05:13 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7D3D1A8984 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:05:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.094 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.094 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RllZXa13L6Tv for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:05:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [IPv6:2001:9e0:803::6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40CCC1A897E for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:05:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id A75B94E; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:05:09 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:date :date:in-reply-to:from:from:subject:subject:mime-version :content-type:content-type:received:received; s=mail; t= 1450803908; bh=OwVnHCKPfgYSn+B7pA/+Gm2gmTsz7fj5uponoKPve5w=; b=l 9NAmoiHXzMD/tNgM4XhnNvM1OdUYphntokxrA1Pg6CxVWLJWOH7hKZBGX73fl1sC mcxvo5EgBbj+97fQCmpy6HWwhwgipjEQacv/ayQg9dcKwVgIVfMmkTGCAHzS+sCO /FpPZueOj0oO1nonVI6sbqq6kjV8CUSdo9q2a30zcI= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id MXv0Am8rkPW9; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:05:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:8640:1::57a:2abc:207c:d8f1] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:8640:1:0:57a:2abc:207c:d8f1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1B38D4C; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:05:08 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:05:07 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <306115E5-CB57-4A26-A6C8-C3D8C7E86BA6@steffann.nl> References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> <20151222154328.GZ58491@Space.Net> <8957301A-4828-4CBF-B5A4-EDB4C5C992F5@steffann.nl> To: Lorenzo Colitti X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:05:12 -0000 > What Sander said. >=20 > Before someone says that this should be documented somewhere. I agree, = it should. But not in this document :-) Oh damn. /me waits to be volunteered by someone for writing that = document... Cheers :) Sander From nobody Tue Dec 22 09:05:39 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FF261A899C for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:05:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9JUW66srA07U for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 298CA1A8993 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:05:37 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11A2C60739 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:05:35 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius3.space.net (moebius3.Space.Net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::250]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 938AA6037D for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:05:34 +0100 (CET) Received: (qmail 75839 invoked by uid 1007); 22 Dec 2015 18:05:34 +0100 Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:05:34 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Sander Steffann Message-ID: <20151222170534.GA58491@Space.Net> References: <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> <20151222154328.GZ58491@Space.Net> <8957301A-4828-4CBF-B5A4-EDB4C5C992F5@steffann.nl> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="dDfw0eiGGL81pE1o" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8957301A-4828-4CBF-B5A4-EDB4C5C992F5@steffann.nl> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.23 (2014-03-12) Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:05:39 -0000 --dDfw0eiGGL81pE1o Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 05:57:08PM +0100, Sander Steffann wrote: > > I have no idea how this is done in cable or "plain IP over ethernet" st= yle > > attachments. Maybe short lease times, or "the headend is only ever > > rebooted in maintenance windows"? >=20 > The way we do it is: Thanks, this was useful. There are two important bits here, I think: > - store the DHCPv6 database on persistent storage in the router for faste= r recovery after reboot This is not something every gear can do today... > - redistribute the prefix-to-CPE routes between the routers so if one los= es the route the traffic can go through the other router =2E.. and this is important to implement (like, using iBGP and keeping the next-hop in place - though this might pose interesting challenges for link-local next-hops if router B doesn't know that this is the same=20 network router A is talking about). [..] > And in the ethernet stuff between our router and the CPE you > probably want switches that can do DHCPv6 snooping and enforcement. > And/or a router that can match the source MAC address of packets > sent by a CPE against the DHCPv6-PD and ND tables to make sure that > customers don't spoof each others prefixes/addresses. These last > bits aren't easy to solve with current equipment. Indeed... "classic" uRPF fails that ("it's going out via that interface,=20 good!")... Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --dDfw0eiGGL81pE1o Content-Type: application/pgp-signature -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQIVAwUBVnmC3t9WwGXkzn/FAQJZsA//T0O95AEhoKglPW3c297TdgJr0nKqPfK4 WUaOOzztreoWsFMValWj8oI8HbMB8pkmW8QZyqprbtQlZ6rlxbHmYeDJmgWIBrnp qEdONEmCAQ9o33k+23llz6FhdW92uJHgNc4IdlrmkuV1uoWy2bnV2ET4EYyNlXOM +sV6IE7AtpSt2HsI/l35hVHY4esblkmT6fXdhJpzaDKhwFGR2A6HOa1DORXWIeqU /Ka3E4yvOjYeSzeTBKukaS51ULLRK52sqg2zK+WgrT7ZdumQdStJM5ayVD4rSzey CpNWklO1GsojDfOcPbGVVZXQZHk4vLDFDNickUdoMO/UeGgEBHPBzNrn3Hd4gSzr CrxRdWOvtmLCIVePtnyKxv2WjxO+1JC7dL3jYqbGYcczkF+SRQC+k8tjAGkD20UX QMBwU1bdeAP4shjDcdgmdDsgLYObkX0o3CoGXF4UefjHH24UbRrYaF6T1rAfg1Q7 DDxq5/1+vPWX/aT9+jWHk/3ML8TbnNxc/4urTS3GIeDjLfx851LCH15uJVgvK14h ABgE1eeC1mbLOWGTKu0ntw4Zx16zAsW5f0288Zp0Z5LlcWCUoF0tLua7R4DbgkzE 61geENeR9gsShDwcN2NBL7a2Jn6SEurTCdSxaC9zziHEVlalBSkbv/9c1QaA3/FH UF8YuQ1P/sQ= =b7hf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --dDfw0eiGGL81pE1o-- From nobody Tue Dec 22 09:11:02 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2626B1A89AF for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:11:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.394 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.394 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HELO_EQ_NL=0.55, HOST_EQ_NL=1.545, MIME_8BIT_HEADER=0.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kCb4MWzMIfUa for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A7191A89A9 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 09:11:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 238CB4E; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:10:59 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:date :date:in-reply-to:from:from:subject:subject:mime-version :content-type:content-type:received:received; s=mail; t= 1450804247; bh=2WgAIl+BtAxIOObsk/f7acQA8gYINonyPiIZtmy7L6A=; b=f eJgyTvQ4GhgWB/t5Gyj+08aW7x4X16Pxcwl8jmzr6UIU8OJVOuAH8McfNdzFpycK F7Rf1I8b6kfqPKr5f2lRZxmYPvdhL9eZWJBwuptttcIm7a9HJ+ziL3j0CvWyfDYT u2T153TZzeAjBz69TGn9LgawOw8xih0C1OjX7n9lZ8= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id y6jxe8fjld9k; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:10:47 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a00:8640:1::57a:2abc:207c:d8f1] (unknown [IPv6:2a00:8640:1:0:57a:2abc:207c:d8f1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5A28D4C; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:10:47 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.2 \(3112\)) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann In-Reply-To: <20151222170534.GA58491@Space.Net> Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 18:10:46 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8E4D5662-C9F4-4983-AF1A-8431AD9A2590@steffann.nl> References: <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> <20151222154328.GZ58491@Space.Net> <8957301A-4828-4CBF-B5A4-EDB4C5C992F5@steffann.nl> <20151222170534.GA58491@Space.Net> To: =?utf-8?Q?Gert_D=C3=B6ring?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3112) Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 17:11:01 -0000 Hi, >> - redistribute the prefix-to-CPE routes between the routers so if one = loses the route the traffic can go through the other router >=20 > ... and this is important to implement (like, using iBGP and keeping = the > next-hop in place - though this might pose interesting challenges for > link-local next-hops if router B doesn't know that this is the same=20 > network router A is talking about). In our case the traffic is just routed to the second router. We use = link-local next hops, and sending those over IGP or EGP would get = interesting... Slightly less efficient routing is accepted when the = persistent storage doesn't contain the route until the next DHCPv6 renew = is done by the CPE. IIRC we currently let the CPEs renew every hour, so = the bit less efficient routing is limited to max 1 hour. Cheers, Sander From nobody Tue Dec 22 14:08:23 2015 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B9571A90F0 for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 14:08:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oUKCaWwlMvok for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 14:08:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71D831A90EB for ; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 14:08:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id tBMM8IaK038028; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 15:08:18 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-404.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch-blv-404.nw.nos.boeing.com [130.247.25.157]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id tBMM8BeY038001 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=OK); Tue, 22 Dec 2015 15:08:12 -0700 Received: from XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.52]) by XCH-BLV-404.nw.nos.boeing.com ([169.254.4.69]) with mapi id 14.03.0235.001; Tue, 22 Dec 2015 14:08:11 -0800 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt Thread-Index: AQHRPQU+9kUMQ2YWzUKtsTB4kSaTig== Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 22:08:11 +0000 Message-ID: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F92543@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B3B5@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <2134F8430051B64F815C691A62D9831832F8B8E9@XCH-BLV-504.nw.nos.boeing.com> <20151221141554.GR58491@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.247.104.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-03.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Dec 2015 22:08:21 -0000 Hi Philip, > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Philip Homburg > Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 12:08 PM > To: v6ops@ietf.org > Cc: v6ops-chairs@tools.ietf.org > Subject: Re: [v6ops] Calling the question: draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-ava= ilability-03.txt >=20 > >I feel very strongly that we should not do document what hosts need to d= o > >in this document. That is out of scope - what we're saying here is > >providing recommendations on how networks should act, not how hosts shou= ld > >act. >=20 > Maybe should you take it one step further and cut out all text on how to > assign multiple addresses. >=20 > For me there is no doubt that networks should provide hosts with > multiple addresses. That is clearly BCP. >=20 > >Like I said: on networks that require explicit requests for address spac= e, > >we simply have no other way to assign anything that's not a handful of > >addresses. By definition, on those networks SLAAC is not supported, so a= ll > >we have is IA_NA. So that's the B in BCP, though it's not really so much > >"Best" as "Only". >=20 > So, we don't know. It might work. Nobody seems to have any experience. > So cut the speculation and say that we don't know. >=20 > (Alternatively, reclassify and informational and the current text is fine= ) >=20 > >We do have plenty of experience with using DHCPv6 PD to assign addresses= to > >things, and yes, those things include hosts (e.g., Windows, which has > >supported DHCPv6 PD for close to a decade). It's true that not all hosts > >and networks support this, just like not all networks support DHCPv6 or > >SLAAC or whatever else. But some enterprise networks do. Our enterprise > >network has places on it that do PD, and as you might expect, the server= s > >that hand out the prefixes neither know nor care if it's a host or a rou= ter > >that requested them. And there are DHCPv6 PD implementations for host OS= es > >such as ISC DHCP and dibbler. >=20 > If people have been doing PD for Windows hosts for close to a decade, > find somebody who has that kind of experience and describe how it > works in practice. (Maybe in an informational draft) >=20 > >If your concern is that using DHCPv6 PD on a host will cause lots of > >problems - what problems are you talking about? From the host perspectiv= e > >it's simple. You get a prefix. >=20 > I described it earlier: > - A host gets a prefix from DHCPv6 relay. The relay reboots, does the > relay have a persistent store of the PD leases or is the host expected > to poll? >=20 > As far as I know, there is no text in RFC 3633 that requires persistent= state > in a DHCPv6 relay. Maybe I missed something. >=20 > If the host is expect to poll, how does that work. You mention Windows, > how do they deal with this problem. >=20 > - And to spice it up, how do redundant routers, acting as DHCPv6 relays a= nd > one of them is shutdown. Again is this something the network has > to handle, or is this the resposibility of the host. It is just not > documented. If PD for hosts is used in practice, then somebody must hav= e > dealt with this problem. >=20 > I don't see how this is 'simple'. I thought I had already answered this, but for AERO there may be many route= rs on the link. The client discovers the unicast addresses of routers via a name = service lookup and maps the multicast group "All_DHCP_Relay_Agents_and_Servers" to the unicast addresses discovered in the name service. By this, I mean th= at=20 through encapsulation the inner destination address is multicast and the ou= ter destination address is the unicast address of a router. The client then does a DHCPv6 PD Solicit/Request through each router it wan= ts to associate with. Each router in turn configures both a DHCPv6 Relay (via RFC= 6221 Lightweight DHCPv6 Relay Agent) and a DHCPv6 Server. When the client reques= ts a DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation, it will get the *same* prefix(es) from all rout= ers it associates with. Meaning that all routers have access to the same database = of prefix-to-client mappings, and all routers will provide an identical servic= e. When one or more routers go down, the network will notice this and withdraw the prefixes they are advertising from the routing system. The client will = also notice that the router has gone down and associate with a different router or routers. The routing system will then direct traffic destined to the cli= ent via one of the new routers. This works fine even if the client is mobile and continuously moving from access network to access network. And, the client gets the same prefix(es) every time it attaches to the network so there is no renumbering. But, most importantly, it gets the same service from whichever router(s) it chooses to associate with, so it can even move from router to router if needs be to reduce path stretch. This is all in the AERO spec. I think an informative reference in this docu= ment would be in order. Thanks - Fred fred.l.templin@boeing.com >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops