From nobody Tue Nov 1 00:45:36 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AADC8127ABE for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 00:45:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 71tK9ljRg-i5 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 00:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua0-x22b.google.com (mail-ua0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 60449127071 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 00:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id b35so51051293uaa.3 for ; Tue, 01 Nov 2016 00:45:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=tKl0/a+HrNInvEwUsu79qvBYq1yBQZmCGgzr5EYWA/c=; b=Iy6g9p4pHSAP574QTpaFWWPjGYeonriGCjx/C89tr1EikCVtF6x0X56uUL/RLawv9E w227fDIhEzAD1hr6Sm/QLFFlUn2Is8/4ZI9zQPE+rsTE5HetperWdibT2z6khrfaUAoB 1A7hsRjGoKHBCTFEIBU9eOVY9KOM6IN3LrxaRaeMqmg4qnFCcQhsDi++ulLzXCrSRj/y vPnT0MWjtD/Spdb1mxq0AkkctOQv1Jk8qpAllVmforhRvRjDZmeJL5CcyQPSyoeeBStL DgNln1bRok/71i0lB2FFJ3Gn714BgvfPLmczuK8c+8g7zaGEkLDhHXijIns0PPoDz7fk c2gA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=tKl0/a+HrNInvEwUsu79qvBYq1yBQZmCGgzr5EYWA/c=; b=JaCmLwUW6NfiBQSCTlhvcw3Am0CBEfGQVR3EuTNKBisdC6Z6ffguPcH0kWi9NczUfx UI8Dy05IzZoXr9UTohF3wIdTtyINysJt/fKlPVgkzez2tw90AyntzYEzTamHiq/uLP8w Y1+/y1C/M68AEo+fW9+h7StrCeIARBimMr5PswHFrI74ITB0wH3ytn01Rbq5WWFhMlKp Ve1lWddztNrgizKsaizQnT6zZwPjcl7pBdiK5tNdGiBCVETTYf+yH7eRM4hFbmFoR0fY z6GzSPD8SBhEcjoGv9fwSl4Gth4Lt59uoffNfgMhlQrn0nJAIwRUrI1Z0nt5CADjEG0I Vw7g== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvejJte/4dGMMxje8Pi++a6SC7vacUUEAXW2WA7t+j9++WBX78uRPksfI4juphIBnuKbw7bptm9OReMVIQ== X-Received: by 10.159.48.145 with SMTP id j17mr9749869uab.43.1477986332355; Tue, 01 Nov 2016 00:45:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.48.212 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 00:45:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <147768867563.24948.10024907649047718692.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2465D1CC-7A48-46A3-93F8-340980B2E5FF@magma.ca> From: Mark Smith Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 18:45:01 +1100 Message-ID: To: Philip Matthews Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-11.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 07:45:35 -0000 On 30 October 2016 at 05:34, Philip Matthews wrote: > On 2016-10-28, at 18:00 , Mark Smith wrote: > > > > Mark: > > You quoted the following sentences from the draft: > > "In IPv6, all interfaces are assigned a Link-Local Address (LLA) [ref]. The > Link-Local address can only be used for communicating with devices that are > on-link, so often additional addresses are assigned which are able to > communicate off-link. These additional addresses can be one of three types:" > > > These sentences were deliberately phrased that way to suggest that multiple > addresses per interface are possible. However, as I now re-read them, I see > that they are also consistent with the interpretation that at most a single > additional address is permitted per interface, though this was never the > intention. > > To avoid the idea that an interface can have at most two addresses, I > propose to change the wording to the following: > > "In IPv6, an interface is always assigned a Link-Local Address (LLA) [REF]. > The link-local address can only be used for communicating with devices that > are on-link, so often one or more additional addresses are assigned which > are able to communicate off-link. This additional address or addresses can > be one of three types:" > > That's better. > > Regarding lifetimes, this section is only about addresses used on loopbacks > and router-to-router links, as is stately clearly in the first paragraph of > the section. This restriction is consistent with the overall scope of this > document, which only talks about routing-related design choices, and avoids > any discussion of end host addresses in enterprises, which is a bit of a > minefield. In this regard, I personally don't know of any router > implementation that allows the addresses on a router-to-router links to age > out. Do you? > Addresses given to residential gateways (i.e., routers) via SLAAC or DHCPv6 are likely to not have infinite lifetimes. I worked on a production IPv6 residential broadband deployment back in 2009/2010, we used SLAAC for the customer link so that customers could either plug a PC directly into the link or a CPE. DHCPv6-PD is used to provide a /56 if the CPE requests it. Both the SLAAC /64 and the DHCPv6-PD /56 have non-infinite lifetimes. > Regarding your blog post, I am confused. It seems to be about NAT, which is > not discussed in this document, so I don't see how it applies to this > document. > The FAQ examples are ones that not only show why NAT isn't necessary, but also how to leverage IPv6 capabilities that don't or don't practically exist in IPv4. I think an IPv6 mindset is "these are IPv6's capabilities; how can I take advantage of them to my operational and network end-users advantage". An IPv4 mindset applied to an IPv6 network is "this is how we do it in IPv4, so I'll do it the same way in IPv6." The latter is the more familiar, and IPv6 can accommodate it, however it is missing opportunities to take much more advantage of IPv6. Here's an example: "2.3.1. Link-Local Next-Hop in a Static Route?" ... " Furthermore, many network operators are concerned about the dependency of the default link-local address on an underlying MAC address, as described in the previous section. Today most operators use GUAs as next-hop addresses." The concern about MAC addresses in LLs is quite valid, however I'd say the solution of using GUAs/ULAs for NH addresses is IPv4 thinking. The IPv6 way would be to set static LLA addresses on router interfaces, and then continue to use LLAs as NH addresses, because they decouple link scope next hops from GUA/ULA prefixes. In this configuration, if you then change a router's interface GUA or ULA address, you don't immediately invalidate any remote static routes pointing to the local interface. That makes a GUA or ULA renumbering event less disruptive and less work. (RFC7217 / stable opaque IIDs specifically mentions that it applies to LLAs and suggests using system slot/ports or Interface Indexes as options for the Net_Iface parameter to decouple the stable opaque IIDs from link-layer addresses. I think suggested this at the time, and the router interface module swap/LLA MAC address dependency issue was exactly my motivation.) Regards, Mark. From nobody Tue Nov 1 02:00:05 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2536912995E for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 02:00:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.335 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.335 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kaFqTQqmUziB for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 02:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from inbound03.kjsl.com (inbound03.kjsl.com [IPv6:2001:1868:a100:131::62]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher RC4-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 041DF1298D3 for ; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 02:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([IPv6:2001:1868:a000:17::142]) by ironport03.kjsl.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 01 Nov 2016 09:00:03 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D31B9CC51; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 02:00:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; s= selector1; bh=ra/ca9Ik7n2hkWu+cWLAGIBPgUY=; b=T3SYgBMyFzGWOyF4QQ SEkzFl9SatwZ84xk4JFqkabtadRlWZglBfWEPaeNVLthK6pDbpBlQzwul3xuhKkM PAvGYnizg0UvvT7QQcO4H9rjw7rlT0/Ds/P7QMxMzofnW1eoqqfIH9Ji0KeNa86r z5TTLbItacOzYsjntJYXoM7XA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h= content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; q=dns; s= selector1; b=gdJoFvJwgeXqr/Kv5m4A76MKiJdQyNLi41iMzwCEyYbZupuzLB0 51QITLlR+G4bBleXCQXCH0xf+SkNA+561g5Y8u+/Z1T5CIs95Ws++hpPZNHQxWfI hzTkLIR+KPC+oKqBQkhpFxZ0BK9CdRQ/TiK9uu9hHAjiCUB4wpz1h874= Received: from h.hanazo.no (219.103.92.62.static.cust.telenor.com [62.92.103.219]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2D87D9CC0F; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 02:00:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8984657C4C75; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 10:00:00 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.1 \(3251\)) From: otroan@employees.org In-Reply-To: <31AB0AFB-3D5E-4E5E-BBEB-20E91463D905@magma.ca> Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 10:00:00 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <10ACE1ED-95CE-48BC-8115-D98497C06C63@employees.org> References: <03BE826C-CCD4-4F46-B1FC-4B2ACF6782BA@magma.ca> <31AB0AFB-3D5E-4E5E-BBEB-20E91463D905@magma.ca> To: Philip Matthews X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF meeting with IPv6 routes over IPv4? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 09:00:05 -0000 > I really don't remember which meeting it was, but I attended both = IETF84 and IETF88, so I might have heard it at one of those meetings. >=20 > If you have any ability to find out more about their justification, = that would be interesting. I'll try myself through my own contacts. For = now, the draft just says that sometimes one needs to do this. There are transition mechanisms that use BGP to exchange the tunnel = endpoints. Examples are 6PE, BGP tunnels (6rd, 6to4), and there might be = more. Then of course there are some people who do it as an operational choice. = Stick with a single BGP session for both address families. Ole >=20 > On 2016-10-30, at 8:04 , Warren Kumari wrote: >=20 >> On Mon, Oct 24, 2016 at 10:52 PM, Philip Matthews >> wrote: >>> I have a memory that there was an IETF meeting some years ago where = the IPv6 connectivity used BGP sessions where the IPv6 routes were = carried over an BGP session that ran over IPv4 transport. Does anyone = remember which meeting that was, and why this was done? We are updating = the BGP section in the Design Choices draft and are considering = mentioning this. >>>=20 >>=20 >> You are probably thinking of IETF81, IETF84 or IETF88. >>=20 >> For some reason Telus (who very kindly donate circuits) like to >> provide a single BGP peering, and carry both IPv4 and IPv6 over it. >>=20 >> I cannot remember the justification, but I'll try find more / grab = the >> archived configs where we rewrite the next hop... >>=20 >> W >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>> -Philip >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> --=20 >> I don't think the execution is relevant when it was obviously a bad >> idea in the first place. >> This is like putting rabid weasels in your pants, and later = expressing >> regret at having chosen those particular rabid weasels and that pair >> of pants. >> ---maf >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Tue Nov 1 13:29:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 187A81294B8; 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Tue, 01 Nov 2016 13:29:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.64.103.6 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Nov 2016 13:29:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Jen Linkova Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 21:29:17 +0100 Message-ID: To: "v6ops@ietf.org" , Routing WG Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] "Enterprise Multihoming using Provider-Assigned Addresses" - 01 version X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 20:29:40 -0000 The updated version of "Enterprise Multihoming using Provider-Assigned Addresses" has been uploaded: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bowbakova-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-01 The changes to -00 are mostly in Section 4 (host address selection), addressing comments we received (thanks to all reviewers!). -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Wed Nov 2 18:27:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D07621296D7 for ; 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[99.236.98.28]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 70sm1911949iou.3.2016.11.02.18.27.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 02 Nov 2016 18:27:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Smith , Philip Matthews References: <147768867563.24948.10024907649047718692.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <2465D1CC-7A48-46A3-93F8-340980B2E5FF@magma.ca> From: Victor Kuarsingh Message-ID: Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 21:26:13 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-11.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2016 01:27:34 -0000 On 2016-10-28 6:00 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > > There's still IPv4 mentality here: > > "In IPv6, all interfaces are assigned a Link-Local Address (LLA) > [ref]. The Link-Local address can only be used for communicating with > devices that are on-link, so often additional addresses are assigned > which are able to communicate off-link. These additional addresses can > be one of three types:" > > The last sentence is reading GUA PI xor GUA PA xor ULA, implying IPv6 > interfaces only support a single LLA and a single other address, which > is not the case. I think it is also implying that address assignments > to nodes are semi-permanent rather than more dynamic, as supported by > IPv6 address lifetimes. > I have heard this sentiment noted a few times - re: "IPv4 mentality". However, I am not sure that paints the entire picture of how networks are built and how addresses are applied to network equipment. In the SP world, I would say that addressing, although very important for services that are provided on such networks, is only one of many factors that determines how things are setup. I would say some of the reasoning for how things are addressed is also much about current operational thinking and considerations which are addressing agnostic. When building out networks, geography, access technologies, spectrum, underlay technologies [e.g. MPLS], overlay requirements, and other such components play major factors in how stuff is built and/or but together. Many of these are the things that cost the most money and therefore get the most attention. Back to addressing, I would say some of the reasoning behind not stacking a bunch of IPv6 addresses on links on intermediary network nodes is less about how IPv4 was applied before and as much about operational considerations. Even with IPv4, one could overlay addresses as well (was not as clean as IPv6, but it could be done). This was done at the network edge many times, like in Cable access networks, but was/is not popular in the middle of the network. Outside of some specific use cases, operators need to consider the functional benefits of what you get from stacking addresses with the drawbacks related to additional administration and/or maintenance (one typically needs to track addresses used and connect them to DNS and/or internal tools). If I were to consider a very large network with say 1000s or 10Ks of links, tracking all these additional addresses would need to be justified with some significant operational gains to warrant applying them. Also, if I applied more addresses to interfaces (e.g. part of an address overlay), I also increase my potential surface area for what I need to filter / protect against (very common practice to limit exposure to infrastructure nodes). I am not arguing against using multiple addresses on network interfaces (e.g. multiple GUAs for example) per se, but disagree with the notion that not doing so is inherently based on IPv4 thinking. There are examples where I have done this (or seen it done) and many example where I did not (and it had nothing to do with IPv4 thinking). All that said I am not against some text the clarifies that one is not limited to just an LLA, or an LLA plus a single instance of a GUA or ULA. However, one of the premises of the document is that we are writing for network designers, and these folks should familiarize themselves with IPv6. Therefore, to me, noting that you can add a GUA or ULA to an interface that has a LLA does not inherently limit one to only adding one. Granted, if folks think it's important to explicitly call that out, I have no strong objection either. > If this draft is reflecting how people are deploying IPv6, then I > think it is reflecting an IPv4 mentality applied to IPv6. I don't > think that is a very useful thing to publish as advice on deploying > IPv6, as it isn't identifying opportunities to take advantages that > IPv6 provides and IPv4 does not. > I think this was addressed by Philip's comments. The draft is concentrated on the network, not the edge hosts. > If we want to go down that path, then I think it would be better to > state that this is a snapshot of current deployments, point out that > they are IPv4 oriented IPv6 deployments, and identify capabilities of > IPv6 that are not being taken advantage of that would provide > operational and end-user application advantages. > > The cost of developing and deploying IPv6 has been and will continue > to high for quite a while, so I think we should be looking to take > advantage of its capabilities as often as possible to maximise the > return on those costs. Some of what I wrote here is taking a "how to > do IPv6 better than IPv4" perspective which I think is the one the > v6ops group should be taking. > Agreed IPv6 is not normally cheap to retrofit into the network, but I am not sure I see any strong advantages of stacking addresses on network router interfaces as a generic practice, that provide subsequent benefits which compensate for massive IT and technology upgrade spends. I see some functional benefits in some cases, but it's not a clear bread winner. I wish this was not the case as it would have made business cases I made years ago much easier. However, I do like the overall notion of the v6ops group looking to document ways to improve services by doing "IPv6 better". I see benefits of documenting this separately, showing uses cases highlighting functional benefits and improvement to services. regards, Victor K > https://blog.apnic.net/2016/10/27/trouble-nat-part-3/ > > Regards, > Mark. > > From nobody Thu Nov 3 01:26:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3772128B38 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2016 01:26:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_05=-0.5, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gr9-xnD0r-p8 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2016 01:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D4548128874 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2016 01:26:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id ABFF2A4; Thu, 3 Nov 2016 09:26:18 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1478161578; bh=3aqIOpMFaaRwoTfCZxl4bPVCMRVJsrUWbG5bsAG3OgU=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:From; b=qu5RVuZcLmqhjq2XUPCbGIY2zYG3yEDMebS8lvUmMuzFbbf798pD5WFFEjCdYylet URdHRRRils1skdhxDVBKS+E2yKuOd7f3BBp1lhv8EH2NE/7M0jEnEA/69WgcKTzPu+ dSNRwHAuGsCSqfwkNhynb/jg2KET329luMxkGlJk= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id A37D7A3 for ; Thu, 3 Nov 2016 09:26:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 09:26:18 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] RFC6724 in operating systems X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2016 08:26:23 -0000 Hi, I just saw this: https://www.ernw.de/download/newsletter/ERNW_Whitepaper57_IPv6_lab_source_address_selection_signed.pdf (page 29 has a table of results) It seems to indicate that all recent versions of widely used operating systems implement RFC6724 nowadays. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Fri Nov 4 09:21:04 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 577D61295B4 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 09:21:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=HkDDIm6qPMdd8RXKfx5H3bbt5IycX6OY1RHRrfeaY0UxjF+t4U1njH4d7oRK GZobrwJ9P8J0PR1uziB0gbiC/ZWFBqFxGrCjHTgOxENlpU9BS+C5aMxwk MJcV8mDp98TzqAdsvCo6ZFqmPGoHCetrc7RvQP/sJnJHeian19rFm4=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 04 Nov 2016 17:20:56 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 04 Nov 2016 17:20:56 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005196007.msg for ; Fri, 04 Nov 2016 17:20:55 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:161104:md50005196007::ivHMqXkgkSbG1RxQ:00001yAq X-Return-Path: prvs=1116d822b0=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 17:20:52 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: do we need to update RFC6204 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC6204 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 16:21:02 -0000 When this document was published, the IPv4 situation was different that the actual one. Many ISPs could have deployed IPv6 using dual stack, or 6rd. Also, lw6over4 was not available, same as other protocols such as MAP, or 464XLAT, or there was no sufficient experience with them. Now the situation is totally different, and ISPs will need to provide IPv6 service-only in the access link, instead of 6in4 based mechanisms, unless they opt for dual-stack with CGN. So my question is: should this document be updated to reflect the new situation, so to provide a better guidance to both the ISPs and the vendors? Regards, Jordi ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Fri Nov 4 10:19:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 41B4C1295C3 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 10:19:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J-EtxL6Wuc9u for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 10:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22e.google.com (mail-vk0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09C32129505 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 10:19:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id 137so24988282vkl.0 for ; Fri, 04 Nov 2016 10:19:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xK+LM2jSXsbA3K6TPN20AC2q/thjBF2lmyxEq0IrP9U=; b=Chuld6Y++231DXxpHxz5Bquma/S0Q5ahy2L90/tzzN7Jz6tnVwo3bJeYO0V9ITFplx D23Wd86t1MJBQPJQ+AtwgwGnVVVp6BUPYvsTt+2TIg2xYbB1SSX/rdCOW3BsPac99SqU KG1ETMyRL8HqyN0PhNWPEfRsBiH/tLHcNzGdxy0HVsMmm1XEItuXwSf6I3uh+J5RM8av cpDvCNapXwheWWoOJjkqdX6URR1DeceajpY0ehjeTDIbMKvkfLJmf6gBdVd/wZttj2Pt ZcTKbgR00knkXV9NMGcmpaEFoCjD2ayUALaUrL5lscqVOCObvGbfvxBN/Ea2z1IiWTuB HwXQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xK+LM2jSXsbA3K6TPN20AC2q/thjBF2lmyxEq0IrP9U=; b=JQXUY4mURLKCRX+LzHM2hylr4Ew/aIqt8ZmoasqX2X42+0GSObYcsRpBoxBlzWIagj MMETFwiEQ6qrO8AqMj0579q3f7zwZvKjM9TbL7f7kL72RnvBxrMJEUhS2M/4ELb2XLQg zFVyxxfYwxDqUT2kTZKt8iNwwU+8kcWFhbhOEwlfLTPVIvwvqwLEEURJ28ZSWKgI974N gzllwKKZH3uXqMvoosCedB9MxfrAGhy54LqwW7eeFVMD2GM0IVMaMqZZoHPy4t1S5ilm 9d60k8rGAyo6MaEkd5YWu5/AvSAELFFLqVbk/2OxGxLKcENy0WTRha2SNq1SVwwdXL0x 7qug== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvcqmheXjqncBQ5QZzOT+2/SdzBiwNHaDHnc8bgYAgGO7ug1LIPucnvlTQyBuGKi/Pb/kS0cle5yzwn48A== X-Received: by 10.31.230.66 with SMTP id d63mr10794582vkh.118.1478279977060; Fri, 04 Nov 2016 10:19:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.53.12 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 10:19:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: krunal shah Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 13:19:36 -0400 Message-ID: To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c095f84e94d7d05407ce0ce Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC6204 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 17:19:40 -0000 --94eb2c095f84e94d7d05407ce0ce Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 RFC 7084 Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Krunal On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 12:20 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ < jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote: > When this document was published, the IPv4 situation was different that > the actual one. > > Many ISPs could have deployed IPv6 using dual stack, or 6rd. > > Also, lw6over4 was not available, same as other protocols such as MAP, or > 464XLAT, or there was no sufficient experience with them. > > Now the situation is totally different, and ISPs will need to provide IPv6 > service-only in the access link, instead of 6in4 based mechanisms, unless > they opt for dual-stack with CGN. > > So my question is: should this document be updated to reflect the new > situation, so to provide a better guidance to both the ISPs and the vendors? > > Regards, > Jordi > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the > individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, including attached files, is prohibited. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --94eb2c095f84e94d7d05407ce0ce Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
RFC=C2=A07084= =C2=A0Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers

Krunal

On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 12:20 PM, JORDI PALET= MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:
When this document was published, the IPv4 sit= uation was different that the actual one.

Many ISPs could have deployed IPv6 using dual stack, or 6rd.

Also, lw6over4 was not available, same as other protocols such as MAP, or 4= 64XLAT, or there was no sufficient experience with them.

Now the situation is totally different, and ISPs will need to provide IPv6 = service-only in the access link, instead of 6in4 based mechanisms, unless t= hey opt for dual-stack with CGN.

So my question is: should this document be updated to reflect the new situa= tion, so to provide a better guidance to both the ISPs and the vendors?

Regards,
Jordi




**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
= http://www.consulintel.es
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited.



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--94eb2c095f84e94d7d05407ce0ce-- From nobody Fri Nov 4 10:32:22 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17B83129497 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 10:32:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nykkj93OZCdn for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 10:32:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4957A129467 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 10:32:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1478280735; x=1478885535; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID: Thread-Topic:Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding: Reply-To; bh=e3ql/DgSSGUEEjZ3nI10R2he736e7VR6HjYoG/nGROA=; b=Z4O kme8tR8yfAld2W6uz2fjOeH36jwXF1AiAa9KzbsM1zRl7+3MvxJLRcGjLabJD18w g1q1QlhZzd8nrv6bMUx7+imUnhv4dbHWiwOsSDTWwN3ucm3Sa/VyemK9Eu7FSuqU EVvOoaOD52QuEYquLrDgts29JsCa8vH0FPB8LFiQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=s/4PLTVYr7U3ahmEtr9RozxVQytxPahstxPRDa2Gdni9nYolYgh5ADpjgZbS d/HYEVw9raQRyBlZvWB84IwdU7jrK+6tMZjylp1kaBB5G99sQbQKT6qqj l3pAXLNo7MTMytseBth/iUslMZWMN2vdIOR98B4TgvbJxOlobJujKc=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 04 Nov 2016 18:32:15 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 04 Nov 2016 18:32:13 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005196117.msg for ; Fri, 04 Nov 2016 18:32:12 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:161104:md50005196117::sM5q2IzwBICgdd0c:000047rn X-Return-Path: prvs=1116d822b0=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 18:32:10 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 17:32:20 -0000 Right sorry, write down the old reference (I was actually referring to the 7084), corrected also in the subject Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: krunal shah Responder a: Fecha: viernes, 4 de noviembre de 2016, 18:19 Para: CC: Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC6204 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers RFC 7084 Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Krunal On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 12:20 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: When this document was published, the IPv4 situation was different that the actual one. Many ISPs could have deployed IPv6 using dual stack, or 6rd. Also, lw6over4 was not available, same as other protocols such as MAP, or 464XLAT, or there was no sufficient experience with them. Now the situation is totally different, and ISPs will need to provide IPv6 service-only in the access link, instead of 6in4 based mechanisms, unless they opt for dual-stack with CGN. So my question is: should this document be updated to reflect the new situation, so to provide a better guidance to both the ISPs and the vendors? Regards, Jordi ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Fri Nov 4 11:07:49 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8677C129482 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 11:07:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.288 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.288 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (public key: not available)" header.d=telecentro.net.ar Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zqqL9yH2hCLz for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 11:07:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.telecentro.net.ar (mail.telecentro.net.ar [190.55.63.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B16B31294E1 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 11:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.telecentro.net.ar (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11B3FA569A; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:07:39 -0300 (ART) Received: from mail.telecentro.net.ar ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (tclmail6.telecentro.local [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id OUPfqNUKHUMN; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:07:38 -0300 (ART) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.telecentro.net.ar (Postfix) with ESMTP id 440D2FA56A8; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:07:38 -0300 (ART) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.telecentro.net.ar 440D2FA56A8 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telecentro.net.ar; s=24ECF6D8-6D11-11E5-A0E5-36DF068F9D73; t=1478282858; bh=Jg7SyaLTHpg7dEDgux9W+v2Uh/wGurUvlkSkLLjZmBw=; h=Date:From:To:Message-ID:MIME-Version; b=tFNixRb9D29e77qgJ+qAYh980FUlVQjv9ChtKqeys8XMv+5XpjvRdDSYlXfV6NwuN QGfZCNxTu/J0eJ2SrOfmiw990K2vJwqguB8ixl9UFW9IMZk5tc7HLLxc2a4edHoT9A 5nttACOoMG9IFaQm50fBSzz3MUSBCy77z0VhlZs4= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at tclmail6.telecentro.local Received: from mail.telecentro.net.ar ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (tclmail6.telecentro.local [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id ly4trcZgAh1Z; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:07:38 -0300 (ART) Received: from tclmail6.telecentro.local (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.telecentro.net.ar (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE873FA569F; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:07:37 -0300 (ART) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:07:36 -0300 (ART) From: Alejandro D'Egidio To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Message-ID: <842925728.436523.1478282856852.JavaMail.zimbra@telecentro.net.ar> In-Reply-To: References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: [10.210.50.96] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.7.0_GA_1659 (ZimbraWebClient - GC54 (Win)/8.7.0_GA_1659) Thread-Topic: do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Thread-Index: tNfC5v6VnC2rjAAissyogC56DNPjCQ== Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 18:07:47 -0000 Hello, I think this is intereseting. I work in a MSO and personally, I've been requesting support for 464XLAT = (CLAT) in CableModem to many vendors without success. This feature is already implemented in openWrt and I think it's a very go= od option. For example, in our case we have depleted our public IPv4. Becau= se of that, we had to implement a CGN. If now we already have a CGN with su= pport of 464XLAT it would be great if we don't provide reserved IPv4 any mo= re to our CPEs, just IPv6. So, why not include it as a basic requirement for IPv6 CPEs? Thanks and Regards Alejandro D'Egidio=20 Jefe de Ingenier=C3=ADa de Backbone=20 [ mailto:adegidio@telecentro.net.ar | adegidio@telecentro.net.ar ]=20 Lavard=C3=A9n 157 | Tel: 54 11 3977 1025=20 C1437FBC | CABA | Argentina=20 TELECENTRO S.A.=20 ESTE MENSAJE ES CONFIDENCIAL. Puede contener informaci=C3=B3n amparada por = el secreto profesional. Si usted ha recibido este e-mail por error, por fav= or comun=C3=ADquenoslo inmediatamente v=C3=ADa e-mail y tenga la amabilidad= de eliminarlo de su sistema; no deber=C3=A1 copiar el mensaje ni divulgar = su contenido a ninguna persona. Muchas gracias.=20 THIS MESSAGE IS CONFIDENTIAL. It may also contain information that is privi= leged or otherwise legally exempt from disclosure. If you have received it = by mistake please let us know by e-mail immediately and delete it from your= system; should also not copy the message nor disclose its contents to anyo= ne. Many thanks. ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" Para: "krun shah" CC: v6ops@ietf.org Enviados: Viernes, 4 de Noviembre 2016 14:32:10 Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for= IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Right sorry, write down the old reference (I was actually referring to the = 7084), corrected also in the subject Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: krunal shah Responder a: Fecha: viernes, 4 de noviembre de 2016, 18:19 Para: CC: Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC6204 ? - Basic Requirements for= IPv6 Customer Edge Routers RFC 7084 Basic Requirements for I= Pv6 Customer Edge Routers =20 Krunal =20 =20 On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 12:20 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: =20 When this document was published, the IPv4 situation was different that= the actual one. =20 Many ISPs could have deployed IPv6 using dual stack, or 6rd. =20 Also, lw6over4 was not available, same as other protocols such as MAP, = or 464XLAT, or there was no sufficient experience with them. =20 Now the situation is totally different, and ISPs will need to provide I= Pv6 service-only in the access link, instead of 6in4 based mechanisms, unle= ss they opt for dual-stack with CGN. =20 So my question is: should this document be updated to reflect the new s= ituation, so to provide a better guidance to both the ISPs and the vendors? =20 Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company =20 This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or= confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individ= ual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any= disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this informati= on, including attached files, is prohibited. =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Fri Nov 4 12:09:54 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1425129643 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:09:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.602 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.602 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2fUevzcErN5g for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C8938129569 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:09:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049295.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id uA4J8v79016905; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:09:43 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049295.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 26gxxmmsxn-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 04 Nov 2016 15:09:43 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uA4J9flM010768; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:09:42 -0400 Received: from alpi133.aldc.att.com (alpi133.aldc.att.com [130.8.217.3]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uA4J9aoU010640 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:09:39 -0400 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAH.ITServices.sbc.com (GAALPA1MSGHUBAH.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.218.157]) by alpi133.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor); Fri, 4 Nov 2016 19:09:23 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.154]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAH.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.157]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:09:23 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: "jordi.palet@consulintel.es" , "krun.shah@gmail.com" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Thread-Index: AQHSNsFvSz3ctiXxQEKZ5zPdsRDwMaDJKCMA Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 19:09:23 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.10.234.158] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-11-04_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1609300000 definitions=main-1611040355 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 19:09:53 -0000 > When this document was published, the IPv4 situation was different th= at > the actual one. >=20 > Many ISPs could have deployed IPv6 using dual stack, or 6rd. >=20 > Also, lw6over4 was not available, same as other protocols such as MAP= , or > 464XLAT, or there was no sufficient experience with them. >=20 > Now the situation is totally different, and ISPs will need to provide= IPv6 > service-only in the access link, instead of 6in4 based mechanisms, unless= they > opt for dual-stack with CGN. >=20 > So my question is: should this document be updated to reflect the new > situation, so to provide a better guidance to both the ISPs and the vendo= rs? RFC 7084 was never intended as advice to ISPs. It was intended as advice fr= om ISPs to vendors of retail CE Routers. Along the lines of: Given IPv6 access network architectures ISPs have documented in CableLabs a= nd Broadband Forum (BBF), here is a set of common requirements for a retail= CE Router that can be used to connect to either of those types of access n= etworks. If there is more than one ISP who is seriously committed to deploying one o= f the technologies you list (not just studying or thinking about it), and t= hey want to extend RFC 7084, they should come forward. But I don't think it= should be extended for any technology that doesn't have a real deployment = commitment from multiple providers. I was very disappointed that some Europ= ean ISPs pushed really hard to get DS Lite documented in BBF and RFC 7084, = and then did nothing with that technology. CE Router vendors should not be = asked to expend their scarce resources in support of experimental technolog= ies. Experiments can be done with OpenWRT types of firmware. RFC 7084 exten= sion needs to be done only for widely deployed technologies. BTW, we also stayed away from 3GPP access architectures, because there was = no participation from 3GPP ISPs. The ISPs doing widespread deployment must = be involved in providing the advice. Barbara From nobody Fri Nov 4 12:18:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F1F29129426 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:18:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u4uPuHGPzMaF for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF21112943D for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:18:54 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1478287129; x=1478891929; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=ePJ/KFOsJBuIYxAd1gys163eF po0/efuzbVFMNX1nok=; b=q6IBMtGXpwrHAOObEOyqvuY2Nf0kSjA8+wxR9LE8w EnVWGZkQh4psenZca2xtx4XLW48YBmYCNRVJu9pppQV5HJ8U3vWiXUXJPM2ZEnmS CcTDbM5N5q7F0d5kTqYBdumgzSyp0RX7h5try6YyWFbV+TPe7rheAbZ0ZYfWpJRo uc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=KCbbPqYYabEEsNg5icAulYwThZMpyeZy9skIBWuW/qFlOTN1WwIRFiff2Ztz lBrAabl0RDjCt8ilNP36JouwU6EBmMWArzzxLV09e6KD7RhaD34bbXFRu 1qI4NweJWbewHJsZbWtCYEgNTAyFZ2TCCmPtc/3rcYIQ2iiOitafD4=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 04 Nov 2016 20:18:49 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 04 Nov 2016 20:18:49 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005196278.msg for ; Fri, 04 Nov 2016 20:18:48 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:161104:md50005196278::bzWKnLeTRQw+jr3b:00004cZl X-Return-Path: prvs=1116d822b0=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 20:18:42 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: , "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 19:18:57 -0000 This is happening already, one of those ISPs sent already a message to the = list some minutes ago. 464XLAT is being deployed in both wired/residential networks and also cellu= lar ones. The only reason is not happening more is precisely because there are very f= ew vendors offering it. I think only Nec and Yamaha, if I recall correctly. I know the topic very well because I=E2=80=99m working in several of those = deployments. So I will be very happy to contribute to it or even take over that work if = the original authors aren=E2=80=99t interested. There are already many deployments using 464XLAT in cellular phones, and so= me people has the same issues trying to deploy LTE modems/routers where the= wired network can=E2=80=99t reach, so I think this should also be included= in this work. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: "STARK, BARBARA H" Responder a: Fecha: viernes, 4 de noviembre de 2016, 20:09 Para: "jordi.palet@consulintel.es" , "krun.shah= @gmail.com" CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Asunto: RE: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for= IPv6 Customer Edge Routers > When this document was published, the IPv4 situation was differen= t that > the actual one. >=20 > Many ISPs could have deployed IPv6 using dual stack, or 6rd. >=20 > Also, lw6over4 was not available, same as other protocols such as= MAP, or > 464XLAT, or there was no sufficient experience with them. >=20 > Now the situation is totally different, and ISPs will need to pro= vide IPv6 > service-only in the access link, instead of 6in4 based mechanisms, un= less they > opt for dual-stack with CGN. >=20 > So my question is: should this document be updated to reflect the= new > situation, so to provide a better guidance to both the ISPs and the v= endors? =20 RFC 7084 was never intended as advice to ISPs. It was intended as advic= e from ISPs to vendors of retail CE Routers. Along the lines of: Given IPv6 access network architectures ISPs have documented in CableLa= bs and Broadband Forum (BBF), here is a set of common requirements for a re= tail CE Router that can be used to connect to either of those types of acce= ss networks. =20 If there is more than one ISP who is seriously committed to deploying o= ne of the technologies you list (not just studying or thinking about it), a= nd they want to extend RFC 7084, they should come forward. But I don't thin= k it should be extended for any technology that doesn't have a real deploym= ent commitment from multiple providers. I was very disappointed that some E= uropean ISPs pushed really hard to get DS Lite documented in BBF and RFC 70= 84, and then did nothing with that technology. CE Router vendors should not= be asked to expend their scarce resources in support of experimental techn= ologies. Experiments can be done with OpenWRT types of firmware. RFC 7084 e= xtension needs to be done only for widely deployed technologies. =20 BTW, we also stayed away from 3GPP access architectures, because there = was no participation from 3GPP ISPs. The ISPs doing widespread deployment m= ust be involved in providing the advice. Barbara =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Fri Nov 4 12:50:37 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 83138129653 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:50:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id omJNTcsx88Fq for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:50:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22c.google.com (mail-wm0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DDF2129579 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:50:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id p190so71907612wmp.1 for ; Fri, 04 Nov 2016 12:50:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=5hXIXdtXRH921A22qbCh7TS02EjraTGmYJKxVFc/mno=; b=JQxNTFA+z516I+kxKTCVLZlHBwmSvXrqw2uGveCrBoR2TwAokO+xBAWCrTZWcxnBKd z55M1x6qEvBRBc2OMncfTcw4egCekwa76cy0HFGSc1gSXh5G7lMI7vTMfQor5rVGEFj2 pDuFa9R4XqzrkvJ9GtkCRO/H6jXn2rnO6wzGUOxeRganwZlpUGKoVV9uE4yAH66+0jcV vnm/WwXcUt/OfKJsohopdROTktTcriGQnLNpPvRfcQC4dW+uTuAkZR+9KdIeQ2rTr3OU ofAmPgap3XUlP6nR8hSn+3X6IfuSESdeL8T+k8/bFKcZn94j08vXJ1h5j5p45YPgiodJ KgjA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=5hXIXdtXRH921A22qbCh7TS02EjraTGmYJKxVFc/mno=; b=ON6vteiLguy76LVELgiGCRWHLziZgPk8QkQUIm4kVbMoKkFHXsD/0IAjr9NTbXTvRl uWWzUKFjCwZCm1+aZzhqLOR3u9borvakZ1AJ8WBpSLhiCgJjhzUBp+yYTxG/7Hdbeujm NpPdfPFHss5RlnHZ/HTm/kl+U2cpgaUejZ/5e/0e3GNoHW0nT3C30txhq15y0eJUZ7cQ tgVfbTglx0QcvKR3/nZTdxJp4w4aws/fcqZufhsfjrGch3+JJlYByoBnnZRb+zKWHl/g ainZE37ewdcjnak3hZRF6PDYn+WRLkC2RYyMJqII1Yf8I8/RCZpxL8yjv8tq+tU7PgPb LICQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvfIlb0aizt5B3XytDeZxeyJAZ0ciEMoYXzF9QmKxHlDpMwHcjzNKXmEcGvLMW6KLuvkdLnNKOGwPcTxRx+p X-Received: by 10.28.141.143 with SMTP id p137mr45991wmd.5.1478289033251; Fri, 04 Nov 2016 12:50:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.164.196 with HTTP; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:50:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> From: Erik Kline Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:50:12 -0400 Message-ID: To: Jordi Palet Martinez Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 19:50:36 -0000 It does seem like the transition models are basically boiling down to two: dualstack and IPv6-only+NAT64/DNS64. I wouldn't refer to the latter as "464xlat" because I read that as actually specifying the client behaviour. The customer/clients could instead be perfectly happy being IPv6-only on such a network (a la iOS devices). From nobody Fri Nov 4 12:58:25 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91DDC129472 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:58:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gDWZ6MG6PIjt for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:58:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6471129607 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:58:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1478289492; x=1478894292; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:CC:Message-ID: Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=zLamrcYGF7RmDw4ZvaF6zHa6b I0VMRV5rAc5vd4epIw=; b=txNczwlrNv0eci8x+RwaRenLX6+hJb1batnf2+oTU vqUMnNJCXUJ8S1tmkSULE1DjbYLF9zSHn2jD3W/AI8QXEwy2/eo4Z96672V9vKhS uTpohAYfgQwy1nNiO7Iw7bteIa/7xi8zDwjXzprqneWExoeotj6g0Ga5+qpEXvjp ZA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=p2IXwXccykB81tDggEQApT/rtE411LDGMGzeuRFp7zmS3WJcCfzE4dQtyBex mJHfFR+cuNb44jSKLRUdyuT2I4r2BdTJvf1AygyD+r0fJODQc/JUiB5zF VPVUa5dfqlBOr9TxC5Oy6Rm/0ohCfZmfN+vzNaUkeseETRmf3yx69U=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 04 Nov 2016 20:58:12 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 04 Nov 2016 20:58:11 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005196374.msg for ; Fri, 04 Nov 2016 20:58:10 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:161104:md50005196374::CCTuvTUKWfCO4ORV:00003GbJ X-Return-Path: prvs=1116d822b0=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 20:58:08 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 19:58:23 -0000 There are two ways of doing that: 1) Having control of the =E2=80=9Capps=E2=80=9D so they are supporting IPv6= (the way Apple is doing), so you just need (in this case) IPv6-only+NAT64/= DNS64. 2) Not having that control (which is what happens mainly in wired networks,= because instead of cellular phones you have all kind of IPv4 only devices/= apps, including those that still use literal IPv4 addresses, older librarie= s, etc.), or venders such as Android or Windows that at the time being don= =E2=80=99t mandate the IPv6 support in the apps. In this case you need the = CLAT part added to the IPv6-only+NAT64/DNS64. My view is that if we update the document, actually 1 is already =E2=80=9Cu= nder=E2=80=9D control, means nothing to be done in the device itself, is a = vendor decision to impose to their app developers. But 2 needs to be explic= itly stated as a requirement. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: Erik Kline Responder a: Fecha: viernes, 4 de noviembre de 2016, 20:50 Para: Jordi Palet Martinez CC: "STARK, BARBARA H (ATTLABS)" , "v6ops@ietf.org" Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for= IPv6 Customer Edge Routers It does seem like the transition models are basically boiling down to two: dualstack and IPv6-only+NAT64/DNS64. =20 I wouldn't refer to the latter as "464xlat" because I read that as actually specifying the client behaviour. The customer/clients could instead be perfectly happy being IPv6-only on such a network (a la iOS devices). =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Fri Nov 4 13:07:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F8821293E4 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 13:07:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.397 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vydFM7-ll5WP for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 13:07:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from greed.fud.no (greed.fud.no [IPv6:2a02:c0:1001:100::145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CF1E01293D8 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 13:00:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2a02:fe0:c420:2657::46e] (port=43546 helo=envy.e1.y.home) by greed.fud.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1c2ker-000453-Fi; Fri, 04 Nov 2016 21:00:13 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 21:00:12 +0100 From: Tore Anderson To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Message-ID: <20161104210012.12f68beb@envy.e1.y.home> In-Reply-To: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.14.0 (GTK+ 2.24.31; x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 20:07:51 -0000 * JORDI PALET MARTINEZ > This is happening already, one of those ISPs sent already a message > to the list some minutes ago. >=20 > 464XLAT is being deployed in both wired/residential networks and also > cellular ones. >=20 > The only reason is not happening more is precisely because there are > very few vendors offering it. I think only Nec and Yamaha, if I > recall correctly. >=20 > I know the topic very well because I=E2=80=99m working in several of those > deployments. >=20 > So I will be very happy to contribute to it or even take over that > work if the original authors aren=E2=80=99t interested. >=20 > There are already many deployments using 464XLAT in cellular phones, > and some people has the same issues trying to deploy LTE > modems/routers where the wired network can=E2=80=99t reach, so I think th= is > should also be included in this work. IMHO the entire section 4.4 would best be left out of a 7084bis. 464XLAT and DS-Lite are not technologies that bring IPv6 connectivity. They bring IPv4 connectivity. It doesn't make any sense for a document that =C2=ABspecifies requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router=C2= =BB to mandate support for any such technology. We have the market for that. Tore From nobody Fri Nov 4 14:06:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4B55C12968C for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 14:06:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -16.018 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-16.018 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4xbCXYWEGsrR for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 14:06:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from alln-iport-5.cisco.com (alln-iport-5.cisco.com [173.37.142.92]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A7A512966D for ; 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04 Nov 2016 21:06:53 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-002.cisco.com (xch-rcd-002.cisco.com [173.37.102.12]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id uA4L6rB7006535 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 4 Nov 2016 21:06:53 GMT Received: from xch-aln-005.cisco.com (173.36.7.15) by XCH-RCD-002.cisco.com (173.37.102.12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 16:06:52 -0500 Received: from xch-aln-005.cisco.com ([173.36.7.15]) by XCH-ALN-005.cisco.com ([173.36.7.15]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 16:06:52 -0500 From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" To: Tore Anderson , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Thread-Topic: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Thread-Index: AQHSNsFu25M3UUYHzEODcR141XCPo6DJhDaAgAACmgCAAAuZAP//z5IA Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 21:06:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <20161104210012.12f68beb@envy.e1.y.home> In-Reply-To: <20161104210012.12f68beb@envy.e1.y.home> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/0.0.0.151105 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.18.255.212] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 21:06:56 -0000 SSBzb21ld2hhdCBhZ3JlZSB3aXRoIFRvcmUuIA0KDQo1LTEweXJzIGZyb20gbm93LCBtYWludGFp bmluZyBJUHY0IGNvbm5lY3Rpdml0eSBtYXkgbm90IGJlIHJlcXVpcmVkIChmb3IgbWFueSwgaWYg bm90IGFsbCkuIFNvLCB3aHkgaW5mdXNlIHRoYXQgaW4gYSBkb2N1bWVudCB0aGF0IGlzIGFsbCBh Ym91dCBJUHY2Lg0KDQotLSANCkNoZWVycywNClJhaml2DQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KDQoNCg0KLS0tLS1P cmlnaW5hbCBNZXNzYWdlLS0tLS0NCkZyb206IHY2b3BzIDx2Nm9wcy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3Jn PiBvbiBiZWhhbGYgb2YgVG9yZSBBbmRlcnNvbiA8dG9yZUBmdWQubm8+DQpEYXRlOiBGcmlkYXks IE5vdmVtYmVyIDQsIDIwMTYgYXQgNDowMCBQTQ0KVG86IEpPUkRJIFBBTEVUIE1BUlRJTkVaIDxq b3JkaS5wYWxldEBjb25zdWxpbnRlbC5lcz4NCkNjOiAidjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmciIDx2Nm9wc0Bp ZXRmLm9yZz4NClN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbdjZvcHNdIGRvIHdlIG5lZWQgdG8gdXBkYXRlIFJGQzcw ODQgPyAtIEJhc2ljIFJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBmb3IgSVB2NiBDdXN0b21lciBFZGdlIFJvdXRlcnMN Cg0KPiogSk9SREkgUEFMRVQgTUFSVElORVoNCj4NCj4+IFRoaXMgaXMgaGFwcGVuaW5nIGFscmVh ZHksIG9uZSBvZiB0aG9zZSBJU1BzIHNlbnQgYWxyZWFkeSBhIG1lc3NhZ2UNCj4+IHRvIHRoZSBs aXN0IHNvbWUgbWludXRlcyBhZ28uDQo+PiANCj4+IDQ2NFhMQVQgaXMgYmVpbmcgZGVwbG95ZWQg aW4gYm90aCB3aXJlZC9yZXNpZGVudGlhbCBuZXR3b3JrcyBhbmQgYWxzbw0KPj4gY2VsbHVsYXIg b25lcy4NCj4+IA0KPj4gVGhlIG9ubHkgcmVhc29uIGlzIG5vdCBoYXBwZW5pbmcgbW9yZSBpcyBw cmVjaXNlbHkgYmVjYXVzZSB0aGVyZSBhcmUNCj4+IHZlcnkgZmV3IHZlbmRvcnMgb2ZmZXJpbmcg aXQuIEkgdGhpbmsgb25seSBOZWMgYW5kIFlhbWFoYSwgaWYgSQ0KPj4gcmVjYWxsIGNvcnJlY3Rs eS4NCj4+IA0KPj4gSSBrbm93IHRoZSB0b3BpYyB2ZXJ5IHdlbGwgYmVjYXVzZSBJ4oCZbSB3b3Jr aW5nIGluIHNldmVyYWwgb2YgdGhvc2UNCj4+IGRlcGxveW1lbnRzLg0KPj4gDQo+PiBTbyBJIHdp bGwgYmUgdmVyeSBoYXBweSB0byBjb250cmlidXRlIHRvIGl0IG9yIGV2ZW4gdGFrZSBvdmVyIHRo YXQNCj4+IHdvcmsgaWYgdGhlIG9yaWdpbmFsIGF1dGhvcnMgYXJlbuKAmXQgaW50ZXJlc3RlZC4N Cj4+IA0KPj4gVGhlcmUgYXJlIGFscmVhZHkgbWFueSBkZXBsb3ltZW50cyB1c2luZyA0NjRYTEFU IGluIGNlbGx1bGFyIHBob25lcywNCj4+IGFuZCBzb21lIHBlb3BsZSBoYXMgdGhlIHNhbWUgaXNz dWVzIHRyeWluZyB0byBkZXBsb3kgTFRFDQo+PiBtb2RlbXMvcm91dGVycyB3aGVyZSB0aGUgd2ly ZWQgbmV0d29yayBjYW7igJl0IHJlYWNoLCBzbyBJIHRoaW5rIHRoaXMNCj4+IHNob3VsZCBhbHNv IGJlIGluY2x1ZGVkIGluIHRoaXMgd29yay4NCj4NCj5JTUhPIHRoZSBlbnRpcmUgc2VjdGlvbiA0 LjQgd291bGQgYmVzdCBiZSBsZWZ0IG91dCBvZiBhIDcwODRiaXMuDQo+DQo+NDY0WExBVCBhbmQg RFMtTGl0ZSBhcmUgbm90IHRlY2hub2xvZ2llcyB0aGF0IGJyaW5nIElQdjYgY29ubmVjdGl2aXR5 Lg0KPlRoZXkgYnJpbmcgSVB2NCBjb25uZWN0aXZpdHkuIEl0IGRvZXNuJ3QgbWFrZSBhbnkgc2Vu c2UgZm9yIGEgZG9jdW1lbnQNCj50aGF0IMKrc3BlY2lmaWVzIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyBmb3IgYW4g SVB2NiBDdXN0b21lciBFZGdlIChDRSkgcm91dGVywrsgdG8NCj5tYW5kYXRlIHN1cHBvcnQgZm9y IGFueSBzdWNoIHRlY2hub2xvZ3kuIFdlIGhhdmUgdGhlIG1hcmtldCBmb3IgdGhhdC4NCj4NCj5U b3JlDQo+DQo+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18N Cj52Nm9wcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj52Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPmh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYu b3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdjZvcHMNCg== From nobody Fri Nov 4 14:12:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B7DA512969F for ; 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d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1478293953; x=1478898753; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=gb/8YdQJujrToWT0HY50J1HFh ThrWZVQOdKy3JazAiI=; b=WkORWRl3qFyHBJStrY591+hFWaPLMhNIQyvBWqgyr lMcZwN2aiMoFAPdqwFUYW2jVxeWSsF16UGE6vOk53RuWBoSv9Oe6H2hb0SRKL8vC UFg6dOZShaA8vRyD90Dl9PpjJOs0jlzCRNbxyULNFX6g2AATlT/K84ffOVCv4qls pc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=eRGqCvQenzvf86FKieFrEi0FImq1PwsDZ8aEUOyakdAf3R2D4bLXs3oSsXaE mXuYsKTOl5YZBSvEFFExOlH1qndOjonxM2JvpKjwFsTdB2UaixYNTIh3h PUGL8Z0879/18By88fpdp95G5Sg3E7V7i9brKq7HnqLjBbbS6MSBGY=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 04 Nov 2016 22:12:33 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 04 Nov 2016 22:12:33 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005196444.msg for ; Fri, 04 Nov 2016 22:12:32 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:161104:md50005196444::Oq3aXyrjskqWTdhT:00003I21 X-Return-Path: prvs=1116d822b0=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 22:12:28 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: , "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <20161104210012.12f68beb@envy.e1.y.home> In-Reply-To: <20161104210012.12f68beb@envy.e1.y.home> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 21:12:41 -0000 The abstract explicitly states: The document also covers IP transition tech= nologies. Also in the intro: These routers typically also support IPv4. And it clearly makes sense, is real life today, because we like it or not, = we can=E2=80=99t switch off IPv4 day-night, so for some years, we need to p= rovide support for existing IPv4 devices in the internal networks. The market is not necessarily doing the right thing if IETF is not there he= lping with some guidance. And in fact this situation is a clear example: We= asked support for 6rd and DS-Lite, and it is there in many vendors, but th= ose mechanisms are no longer the =E2=80=9Cbest=E2=80=9D choices, and as we = didn=E2=80=99t explicitly asked support for newer (IPv6-only mechanisms), t= hey are not there, while the ISPs require it. An alternative is to have an IPv6-only CE requirements document. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: Tore Anderson Responder a: Fecha: viernes, 4 de noviembre de 2016, 21:00 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: , "v6ops@ietf.org" Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for= IPv6 Customer Edge Routers * JORDI PALET MARTINEZ =20 > This is happening already, one of those ISPs sent already a message > to the list some minutes ago. >=20 > 464XLAT is being deployed in both wired/residential networks and also > cellular ones. >=20 > The only reason is not happening more is precisely because there are > very few vendors offering it. I think only Nec and Yamaha, if I > recall correctly. >=20 > I know the topic very well because I=E2=80=99m working in several of = those > deployments. >=20 > So I will be very happy to contribute to it or even take over that > work if the original authors aren=E2=80=99t interested. >=20 > There are already many deployments using 464XLAT in cellular phones, > and some people has the same issues trying to deploy LTE > modems/routers where the wired network can=E2=80=99t reach, so I thin= k this > should also be included in this work. =20 IMHO the entire section 4.4 would best be left out of a 7084bis. =20 464XLAT and DS-Lite are not technologies that bring IPv6 connectivity. They bring IPv4 connectivity. It doesn't make any sense for a document that =C2=ABspecifies requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router= =C2=BB to mandate support for any such technology. We have the market for that. =20 Tore =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Fri Nov 4 14:16:57 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 565C412957E for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 14:16:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F4VT1W-sBurQ for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 14:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [IPv6:2001:9e0:803::6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0D931293DA for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 14:16:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 21D443D; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 22:16:51 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:message-id:date:date:in-reply-to:from:from :subject:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-type:received :received; s=mail; t=1478294209; bh=pQx4wiAPsxy24MeodmIFdanB7hAb SBFB44h2PfTXsvw=; b=Bij+Xmq3vvjEfskFc20N+G77dLiOeQbwWajz5GHDb2sz OLWe6ucjIs0ph1fVNeMl9bgJVm3yOBdw1BoLrTYPTh+cIEeFu2XLqTNPUokqqg1M +Vt/xz0YqJIqdZliLdIiuKpZcGwKR7R/W0gmrKnsn/bqjpr7olUU/Ys7IkDT1nk= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id cqdBGUIZZszG; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 22:16:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:9300:c8f7:4dd9:49e9:d127] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:9300:c8f7:4dd9:49e9:d127]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3029538; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 22:16:49 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E7CADDE5-3EEC-4769-BF83-B119FBC77E06"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 22:16:42 +0100 Message-Id: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> To: "STARK, BARBARA H" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 21:16:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E7CADDE5-3EEC-4769-BF83-B119FBC77E06 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi Barbara, > I was very disappointed that some European ISPs pushed really hard to = get DS Lite documented in BBF and RFC 7084, and then did nothing with = that technology. Speaking as a customer of such a European ISP I can confirm that DS-Lite = is very much used here. I am currently behind DS-Lite-FQDN: aftr01.upc.nl DS-Lite-adres: 2001:730:2000:2::31 At least in the Netherlands DS-Lite has been deployed to hundreds of = thousands of users already, and the numbers are still going up. I think = that ISPs did nothing with DS-Lite is a misconception. Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_E7CADDE5-3EEC-4769-BF83-B119FBC77E06 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJYHPq6AAoJEKAtA7D+JBO5md8H/RCa0qi6c0p1pYYvJyTl5Hlg zhTfJWJjzVAOEuIHchkpuzK/5Xf/OlXaiECRVSYoCiT1RGi/qg2Q8Zix7xCe7zZU /2wpHAQIHQq57um1xRnq7l5ScZtPk99ad1PUlMOEo3UoOWmj8hVa0NcDM3OsORGa B2IdK+va34+q+uFyCMsCdUL0e5iGgkdtT6nNbxZOwRgnfktm5zGJx8jLYAm38PVd AFiR/zxyQIqG+BCeL0puFhf/blvs7oZASM4N58U5qVsKAN5ZnqklZimbzsVVG9Wo R8bNWm4wzfn2kdUxzH1RzvvtBVWeUAHhFZvo2MzFEsMXNuJrNB06zxmt60p4Yaw= =t7m/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_E7CADDE5-3EEC-4769-BF83-B119FBC77E06-- From nobody Fri Nov 4 14:58:56 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B9E55129842 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 14:58:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.798 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.798 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hVsX9WmqZY_9 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 14:58:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6BC3C1294B8 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 14:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 47193A4; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 22:58:50 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1478296730; bh=c8EO/fjqZz2aTgPvKUWs3WEuO74atzPk4kD2MEetLRQ=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=pPx1yfa5sDzqyDVkH4rStbPGjb+nyg+REulUJdO83KpUbx0Qr8P0zWiHHP7KRLBvQ bJiMRZHWl5zWYvhW8P7LJkeJT2pI7Vbhpsu7rxYDmgYdHY6iDesOnxa+ZVWpOVOKI1 bIzfYZY339453nMQca+ADfbkNg21TuYhFdGOwIkE= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 432AFA3; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 22:58:50 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 22:58:50 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Sander Steffann In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 21:58:55 -0000 On Fri, 4 Nov 2016, Sander Steffann wrote: > At least in the Netherlands DS-Lite has been deployed to hundreds of > thousands of users already, and the numbers are still going up. I think > that ISPs did nothing with DS-Lite is a misconception. All the ds.lite I know of are from Cable providers, ie DOCSIS3 deployments. Do you see ds.lite in any other space, ie non-cable operators? -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Fri Nov 4 15:14:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A88021298BB for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:14:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.397 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ce6Xa9rETVJI for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from greed.fud.no (greed.fud.no [IPv6:2a02:c0:1001:100::145]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 667B51298A6 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:14:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2a02:fe0:c420:2657::46e] (port=44324 helo=envy.e1.y.home) by greed.fud.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:256) (Exim 4.82) (envelope-from ) id 1c2mkr-0007Ou-BE; Fri, 04 Nov 2016 23:14:33 +0100 Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 23:14:32 +0100 From: Tore Anderson To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Message-ID: <20161104231432.3f3cd322@envy.e1.y.home> In-Reply-To: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <20161104210012.12f68beb@envy.e1.y.home> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.14.0 (GTK+ 2.24.31; x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 22:14:36 -0000 * JORDI PALET MARTINEZ > The abstract explicitly states: The document also covers IP > transition technologies. A prime candidate for deletion in a 7084bis document. > Also in the intro: These routers typically also support IPv4. >=20 > And it clearly makes sense, is real life today, because we like it or > not, we can=E2=80=99t switch off IPv4 day-night, so for some years, we ne= ed > to provide support for existing IPv4 devices in the internal networks. Nobody suggested making a 7084bis document prohibit IPv6 CE routers from also supporting native IPv4 (or your favourite IPv4 transition technology). > The market is not necessarily doing the right thing if IETF is not > there helping with some guidance. And in fact this situation is a > clear example: We asked support for 6rd and DS-Lite, and it is there > in many vendors, but those mechanisms are no longer the =E2=80=9Cbest=E2= =80=9D > choices, and as we didn=E2=80=99t explicitly asked support for newer > (IPv6-only mechanisms), they are not there, while the ISPs require it. They will be there if the ISPs ask for it. You already mentioned that you'd found two different CPE vendors that implemented the transition technology you wanted - so why not simply buy your CPEs from them? You (and others) doing that is the best way to make their competitors follow suit. In any case, assuming you want to avoid having 7084bis require every single one of the many transition technologies that exist, but instead single out "best", to use your word, you first have to get consensus on which one actually is the "best". That sounds like going down the rathole to me. > An alternative is to have an IPv6-only CE requirements document. Listing the technical requirements specific to delivering IPv6 indeed precisely what a properly focused IPV6 CE router document should contain. Anything else, such as stating which IPv4 transition technology is the "best", should be considered out of scope. If the CE vendor decides to also implement support for 464XLAT it can find perfectly fine guidance on how to go about doing that in RFC6877. 4RD? RFC7600. MAP-E? RFC7597. And so forth. Tore From nobody Fri Nov 4 16:09:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54B6D1299B6 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 16:09:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DIXBrL5Ra145 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 16:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [83.247.10.6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 071EA129879 for ; Fri, 4 Nov 2016 16:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7EA33D; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 00:09:46 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= x-mailer:references:message-id:date:date:in-reply-to:from:from :subject:subject:mime-version:content-type:content-type:received :received; s=mail; t=1478300985; bh=DLV7VT4Gv/baCdU/48gY4aDZtvyO FA02fOt0qx//WDQ=; b=qWfFQalApWbj0ARMMLC8aGUHMx8HM7kWYcfC7nGNR3Y2 LEiPChJZOFnQoOrvGtoM6jYxjqfUJrokkoAi5zaMWb9Y+8vq6le8LVZZ1eE8hqzy TfUHHYCwqi4v5I7FXF0vDblRn31rzFzkscQSv98njgk2dkC3mBYw9bHh7qekMXU= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 8ukUKjxxRwUq; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 00:09:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:9300:c8f7:4dd9:49e9:d127] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a300:9300:c8f7:4dd9:49e9:d127]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 21D4438; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 00:09:44 +0100 (CET) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A30ACA49-8F60-424B-B60E-A31835441803"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 00:09:44 +0100 Message-Id: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> To: Mikael Abrahamsson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 23:09:50 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A30ACA49-8F60-424B-B60E-A31835441803 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hi, >> At least in the Netherlands DS-Lite has been deployed to hundreds of = thousands of users already, and the numbers are still going up. I think = that ISPs did nothing with DS-Lite is a misconception. >=20 > All the ds.lite I know of are from Cable providers, ie DOCSIS3 = deployments. >=20 > Do you see ds.lite in any other space, ie non-cable operators? Not yet, although I expect cases where the cable modem is put into = bridged mode and then a separate CPE behind it will do DS-Lite. The = cable operators that I have spoken to don't allow this yet, but it is = being discussed. Cheers, Sander --Apple-Mail=_A30ACA49-8F60-424B-B60E-A31835441803 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJYHRU4AAoJEKAtA7D+JBO5M88H/jnFWs8WMs5J6fZuxjCJfmll RzDaZAXjES18RLVj+HafwIS6VELSKF8XrRmd+IVyWJUY/Ch9TmUqSW6oNTqkeHzx gp6omXNdIE6eV1pQ+svkn0a+k4U48Maw+q0yhMKdl7K388VS9AypsDtYKWtUPz6g PRoX2JoMNgvm37wljUf5WV7Q8AsmfIvgbxxup5FAceL0jfTouxn/XebFWVfY1vOO /vrlMbdXg3i7slF9PAJIytmSDlTOX70fTQoHZ5lJDsbliBxRHaT+XozkoBFOg8IZ 5sjjiuW3vfPRwzcPkmvRjNzLrnumeYH7OGB77qfVJk/ARslqX1WpkVnZL/uSg44= =xa0n -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A30ACA49-8F60-424B-B60E-A31835441803-- From nobody Sat Nov 5 00:35:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DEC0B1294B5 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 00:34:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=forthnet.gr Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jy-DGfLa3iri for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 00:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zm-out-01.forthnet.gr (zm-out-01.forthnet.gr [194.219.0.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D739124281 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 00:34:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zm-in-01.cloud.forthnet.prv (zm-in-01.cloud.forthnet.prv [10.24.31.15]) by zm-out-01.forthnet.gr (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE4DF121F48 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 09:34:51 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost (localhost6.localdomain6 [IPv6:::1]) by zm-in-01.cloud.forthnet.prv (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADBF312036C; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 09:34:51 +0200 (EET) X-DSPAM-Result: Innocent Authentication-Results: zm-in-01.cloud.forthnet.prv (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=forthnet.gr Received: from zm-in-01.cloud.forthnet.prv ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (zm-in-01.cloud.forthnet.prv [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id lXpWNbSZcG5h; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 09:34:51 +0200 (EET) Received: from localhost (localhost6.localdomain6 [IPv6:::1]) by zm-in-01.cloud.forthnet.prv (Postfix) with ESMTP id 530591204CB; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 09:34:51 +0200 (EET) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.9.2 zm-in-01.cloud.forthnet.prv 530591204CB DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=forthnet.gr; s=zm; t=1478331291; bh=YGj8hSr8q/35m/T3MGcNn68n/HY4cBFr7m4FcM4h//0=; h=Message-ID:Date:From:MIME-Version:To:Subject:Content-Type: Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=sR4XcxmCjEE/YevCTH+MSCUSs9jVw45Q42qA9vGWalVJg/wqmjqpaJW8MkiXrBNMv z/E9ZAZAT2rmUc9K04LW/NjaJUuGt7ee1GvepO/UYaNJHz9O3GZh9QHsWh5AHMEobT jcJ+F+0mEDSaEo0P8Ert9e7cysLoAF9x2MmwE2no= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zm-in-01.cloud.forthnet.prv Received: from zm-in-01.cloud.forthnet.prv ([IPv6:::1]) by localhost (zm-in-01.cloud.forthnet.prv [IPv6:::1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id gzyZe3EuTOno; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 09:34:51 +0200 (EET) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:2149:8743:3400:c07:87ce:25ed:779e] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:2149:8743:3400:c07:87ce:25ed:779e]) by zm-in-01.cloud.forthnet.prv (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 3186612036C; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 09:34:51 +0200 (EET) Message-ID: <581D8B91.4070602@forthnet.gr> Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 09:34:41 +0200 From: Tassos Chatzithomaoglou User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:35.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/35.0 SeaMonkey/2.32.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 07:34:59 -0000 Mikael Abrahamsson wrote on 4/11/16 23:58: > On Fri, 4 Nov 2016, Sander Steffann wrote: > >> At least in the Netherlands DS-Lite has been deployed to hundreds of thousands of users already, and the numbers are still going up. I think that ISPs did nothing with DS-Lite is a misconception. > > All the ds.lite I know of are from Cable providers, ie DOCSIS3 deployments. > > Do you see ds.lite in any other space, ie non-cable operators? > We, as a fixed/DSL operator, use DS-Lite on a large percentage of our subscribers. Recently we started adding PCP to the mix. -- Tassos From nobody Sat Nov 5 02:54:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE56D129B00 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 02:54:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qTHGrDdYPs61 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 02:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 535A7129AFA for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 02:54:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1478339678; x=1478944478; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=qx5ybhmK5xw/yzYV8ND3DmhTU LapeSfW1Zczv5LAD9w=; b=Nr4sR/d2Dl6x5lvrB7hJ/uVCFM4H3lt1X6hEK6X3n 1Qc4yBJUKe/eLxMdVzwJAqzOLoCqnqLGUzLLGNCpbA+1IpPGK9qMAcjSHB4Zua4y 5M8viTwe69GuuJMtnBryHhvLHyGDGeouTq5pxfjFXWs5KZi6N+QeCoytMYkpHTrA X4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=cWvbHCARvgNoAIp7OvOcSMnvCUW/zvtZL0VsR1NZKIdbL3Mo3LA2tx6+w07z USu55qGqjEYvc49kXBKXi+20b4uHbK/urXO8BPAdD0QsSeD2C7lNzXBBA hCXM62YUov0eI3HgX5HtQ5vpWjZ4qhooIw4wVsr40UH+X/Gv9yyqD0=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 05 Nov 2016 10:54:38 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 05 Nov 2016 10:54:33 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005197492.msg for ; Sat, 05 Nov 2016 10:54:31 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:161105:md50005197492::OKvomD9JMz1KOtC1:00001/HC X-Return-Path: prvs=11179e9fff=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 10:54:31 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: , "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: <79D538C7-504D-4719-9C67-27EE524E8DB1@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <581D8B91.4070602@forthnet.gr> In-Reply-To: <581D8B91.4070602@forthnet.gr> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 09:54:47 -0000 I=E2=80=99ve also some trials with DSL customers, thousands of users each t= rial. Some of those trials have been running for a couple of years already, and t= he reason not to go into commercial is precisely because they will prefer t= o use the same transition mechanism in all the network (they are using 464X= LAT in the cellular trial), but the vendors aren=E2=80=99t supporting it an= d one of the arguments is not suggested as a requirement from the IETF ... Also looking at the recent IPv6 survey I can see the following stats: 1) 5 LTE/router deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv= 6). 2) 2 LTE/router deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). 3) 1 LTE/router deployment with DS-Lite. 4) 2 LTE/router deployment with tunnel broker. 5) 1 Cable deployment with 464XLAT. 6) 2 Cable deployments with 6to4. 7) 2 Cable deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6) 8) 2 Cable deployments with DS-Lite. 9) 42 Cable deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6) 10) 1 Cable deployment with lw4o6. 11) 1 Cable deployment with MAP-T. 12) 2 Cable deployments with tunnel broker. 13) 5 FTTH deployments with 464XLAT. 14) 2 FTTH deployments with 6RD. 15) 8 FTTH deployments with 6to4. 16) 7 FTTH deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6). 17) 4 FTTH deployments with DS-Lite. 18) 93 FTTH deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). 19) 1 FTTH deployment with MAP-E. 20) 1 FTTH deployment with tunnel broker. 21) 4 xDSL deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6). 22) 7 xDSL deployments with DS-Lite. 23) 71 xDSL deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). 24) 9 xDSL deployments with 6RD. 25) 3 xDSL deployments with 464XLAT. 26) 2 xDSL deployments with tunnel broker. 27) 1 xDSL deployment using softwires (L2TP). 28) 6 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployments with dual stack - CGN = (private IPv4, global IPv6). 29) 22 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployments with dual stack (publ= ic IPv4, global IPv6). 30) 1 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployment with 464XLAT. In addition to all that, there are some other access technologies being use= d, with different transition mechanisms. By the way, most of the 464XLAT deployments are done using OpenWRT, taking = advantage of existing CPEs that can be reflashed, because lack of support f= rom the original vendors. The survey got already 1.223 responses up to now. I=E2=80=99m providing her= e only the numbers for those that responded with specific details about the= transition technology. There are many other answers with have left this em= pty, probably customers that don=E2=80=99t know. In general, more complete = responses come from the ISP employees, which also provide the contact detai= ls, and I talked with them in some cases to clarify specific answers to the= survey. I did a recent presentation at the last RIPE meeting (not going into so man= y detailed data as here) Slides - https://ripe73.ripe.net/presentations/22-IPv6-survey-October-2016.= pdf Video - https://ripe73.ripe.net/archives/video/1242/ Survey available here, if you still haven=E2=80=99t answered it or somethin= g changed in your network: http://survey.consulintel.es/index.php/175122 Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Tassos Chatzithomaoglou Responder a: Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 5 de noviembre de 2016, 8:34 Para: "v6ops@ietf.org" Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for= IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Mikael Abrahamsson wrote on 4/11/16 23:58: > On Fri, 4 Nov 2016, Sander Steffann wrote: > >> At least in the Netherlands DS-Lite has been deployed to hundreds of= thousands of users already, and the numbers are still going up. I think th= at ISPs did nothing with DS-Lite is a misconception. > > All the ds.lite I know of are from Cable providers, ie DOCSIS3 deploy= ments. > > Do you see ds.lite in any other space, ie non-cable operators? > We, as a fixed/DSL operator, use DS-Lite on a large percentage of our = subscribers. Recently we started adding PCP to the mix. =20 -- Tassos =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Sat Nov 5 03:22:41 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D64E9129CD2 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 03:22:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U7BkvU-Q6JX8 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 03:22:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E0215129CCB for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 03:22:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1478341355; x=1478946155; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=D7V5oOtoM4U+J/6fVuYPjwU8e wQ858YuF6Dw/fBURIs=; b=IyUytpzH1/in1BezUHd1rdQ2SHAru3AeTFLke8Ve1 o6KmHNYOaiWBDUBTZFKdEKTsCaY1L1RoWCN7azU1UzxrjkLOSccK8a9+lZZIOnfJ 3URiYLRVax1qhjp892uzSzqNupEwuKqJXwRFScM5IyVVavCLrG6xs+0aXx1oBAu+ 5k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=dc1XNvTKQN5/HvIUePZCUPjh1GBg2PfsH09AEz0kU1McXWVCWBnOtfl0gAbv mculCFm9lb9bo+R/Q2vG7sTA/8rWyA786NQDrJaq2p+/oVWVf8vH9NHHn qRbTWlXLaJ/f7hBmDr9u+8XTpVG8m91KUoAdyT1WcV5r4ajHt0nJvI=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 05 Nov 2016 11:22:35 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 05 Nov 2016 11:22:34 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005197550.msg for ; Sat, 05 Nov 2016 11:22:34 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:161105:md50005197550::GqYUedJoXc3Ea4aK:000008vb X-Return-Path: prvs=11179e9fff=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 11:22:28 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: , "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <20161104210012.12f68beb@envy.e1.y.home> <20161104231432.3f3cd322@envy.e1.y.home> In-Reply-To: <20161104231432.3f3cd322@envy.e1.y.home> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 10:22:39 -0000 Below in-line. -----Mensaje original----- De: Tore Anderson Responder a: Fecha: viernes, 4 de noviembre de 2016, 23:14 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for= IPv6 Customer Edge Routers * JORDI PALET MARTINEZ =20 > The abstract explicitly states: The document also covers IP > transition technologies. =20 A prime candidate for deletion in a 7084bis document. =20 =E2=87=92 There is a lot of text about IPv4, I just started with the 1st 2 = pages =E2=80=A6 =20 > Also in the intro: These routers typically also support IPv4. >=20 > And it clearly makes sense, is real life today, because we like it or > not, we can=E2=80=99t switch off IPv4 day-night, so for some years, w= e need > to provide support for existing IPv4 devices in the internal networks= . =20 Nobody suggested making a 7084bis document prohibit IPv6 CE routers from also supporting native IPv4 (or your favourite IPv4 transition technology). =20 -> If the document is meant for dual stack support as in today world, then = we need to have it more complete with =E2=80=9Cactual=E2=80=9D transition t= echnologies. 6RD is no longer meaningful in a world where ISPs will not hav= e sufficient public IPv4 addresses for all the customers. The same as the a= ctual document talks about DS-LITE, should mention updated technologies. Ot= herwise we need two documents, one for IPv6-only CPEs, one for CPEs that st= ill need to support IPv4. > The market is not necessarily doing the right thing if IETF is not > there helping with some guidance. And in fact this situation is a > clear example: We asked support for 6rd and DS-Lite, and it is there > in many vendors, but those mechanisms are no longer the =E2=80=9Cbest= =E2=80=9D > choices, and as we didn=E2=80=99t explicitly asked support for newer > (IPv6-only mechanisms), they are not there, while the ISPs require it= . =20 They will be there if the ISPs ask for it. You already mentioned that you'd found two different CPE vendors that implemented the transition technology you wanted - so why not simply buy your CPEs from them? You (and others) doing that is the best way to make their competitors follow suit. =20 =E2=87=92 Believe me, is not that way. Unless you have a strong purchasing = power, small ISPs (and there are many with just a few hundreds or thousands= of customers), vendors will not update their code for you, even if that=E2= =80=99s pretty easy to do. And even more, sometimes vendors provide firmwar= e updated to existing hardware if is not too old, but they don=E2=80=99t su= pport new transition mechanism because a small ISP ask for it. Look for exa= mple at Mikrotik, I=E2=80=99ve many customers using this and they don=E2=80= =99t have support for 6rd, DS-LITE, NAT64, 464LAT, Sofwires, etc. It is tru= e that Mikrotik is more used as a corporate (SME) CPE, but also in many Wir= eless deployments (for reaching remote residential customers). However, if = you look to the =E2=80=9Cmajor=E2=80=9D CPE vendors for all the access tech= nologies (Technicolor, Arris, Linksys, Comtrend, Asus, AVM, Belkin, Buffalo= , D-link, Huawei, Netgear, TP-Link, Trendnet, ZTE, Zyxel and so and so), mo= st of them have implemented only 6RD and DS-LITE, because that=E2=80=99s wh= at we have in this document! So they really follow it. In any case, assuming you want to avoid having 7084bis require every single one of the many transition technologies that exist, but instead single out "best", to use your word, you first have to get consensus on which one actually is the "best". That sounds like going down the rathole to me. =20 =E2=87=92 We can workout a text that explain different scenarios and possib= le mechanisms for each of them. There is no need to say all them must be su= pported, but a recommendation. After all, the code to support most of them = is 1) open source 2) very compact 3) some times even shared code. What it m= eans is that if a vendor want to support several of them, is possible in mo= st of the devices that already support dual-stack, 6rd, ds-lite. Basics ar= e almost the same. =20 > An alternative is to have an IPv6-only CE requirements document. =20 Listing the technical requirements specific to delivering IPv6 indeed precisely what a properly focused IPV6 CE router document should contain. Anything else, such as stating which IPv4 transition technology is the "best", should be considered out of scope. =20 If the CE vendor decides to also implement support for 464XLAT it can find perfectly fine guidance on how to go about doing that in RFC6877. 4RD? RFC7600. MAP-E? RFC7597. And so forth. =20 =E2=87=92 Look at what is being actually implemented: 6rd and DS-lite, just= what we have at this document. =20 Tore =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Sat Nov 5 04:10:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 050AE129A60 for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 04:10:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vQ-nVgfpA-Is for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 04:10:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 64101129A5F for ; Sat, 5 Nov 2016 04:10:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1478344228; x=1478949028; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=U3eplfreJT78vx0DvuyQ76JMn 8hg8WrSdxoOFX23XUM=; b=KPlCZRjNMr0eOCxgsQsWxno3o4XlTq/pTq6zxyqVo uy6iSsMeYajnXaG4h9EBUDKmlSmEo4RXOqOZLSgb0AFmNLfT3G2t/GPmotgu5yux A6oUy0c0I96tLcn7UnlmWauBpixRS5AzyrzrQu+DVt7bgShGizeqaPxhuVY7m2Fv xI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=p2G8m/2WCP2h9KcnF9Ygj56V8mENOJSFAFyFZTvzPUXmxe8YHP2bVhoMW/2l stgS32MdMgcmaV3jD55iWP2Cnx7T49zp8u0RYcyfqTMsO9gG4Ln38T1H7 ecZvCPqzmqxE0UByoVW89FUrwniw1TBuqp2sk2L2YxB5yJBIoOrJWw=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 05 Nov 2016 12:10:28 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 05 Nov 2016 12:10:27 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005197700.msg for ; Sat, 05 Nov 2016 12:10:27 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:161105:md50005197700::jRcf6iYJDtQhAJSY:0000B9LL X-Return-Path: prvs=11179e9fff=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 12:10:23 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: , "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: <92581B6A-EE3D-4CB1-AF4B-B333D4F2B903@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <20161104210012.12f68beb@envy.e1.y.home> <20161104231432.3f3cd322@envy.e1.y.home> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 11:10:33 -0000 By the way, forgot something with is quite relevant. Yes, there are a couple of vendors that officially support 464XLAT, but if = you try compare the pricing with other low cost CPEs which are the ones use= d in most of the ISP networks for residential customer, there is a big gap.= Small ISPs can=E2=80=99t use them, they have a low volume, even sometimes,= they buy indirectly and not from the makers but from local market, and eve= n sometimes, the end-user is responsible for buying a new CPE, etc. So if t= he support is not widely available in almost each low cost CPE (in addition= to more expensive ones), transition is not going to happen in the best way= and it will take much longer. As a standards community, I don=E2=80=99t think this is what we want. Neith= er I think is what ISPs wish. Oh yeah, this is what vendor prefer, selling now one CPE, and tomorrow anot= her one =E2=80=A6 but I don=E2=80=99t think our mission here is to help the= m to make profit, but to make better products that have a longer lifetime. = Product that can be used in today networks, but still work in tomorrow ones= , when the ISPs only want to provide IPv6-only WAN links, because they can= =E2=80=99t do IPv4 anymore, and they want to avoid CGN as much as possible,= the CPE is still able to do that, instead of going to one more replacement= cycle. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 5 de noviembre de 2016, 11:22 Para: , "v6ops@ietf.org" Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for= IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Below in-line. =20 -----Mensaje original----- De: Tore Anderson Responder a: Fecha: viernes, 4 de noviembre de 2016, 23:14 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements= for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers =20 * JORDI PALET MARTINEZ =20 > The abstract explicitly states: The document also covers IP > transition technologies. =20 A prime candidate for deletion in a 7084bis document. =20 =E2=87=92 There is a lot of text about IPv4, I just started with the 1s= t 2 pages =E2=80=A6 =20 > Also in the intro: These routers typically also support IPv4. >=20 > And it clearly makes sense, is real life today, because we like i= t or > not, we can=E2=80=99t switch off IPv4 day-night, so for some year= s, we need > to provide support for existing IPv4 devices in the internal netw= orks. =20 Nobody suggested making a 7084bis document prohibit IPv6 CE routers from also supporting native IPv4 (or your favourite IPv4 transition technology). =20 -> If the document is meant for dual stack support as in today world, t= hen we need to have it more complete with =E2=80=9Cactual=E2=80=9D transiti= on technologies. 6RD is no longer meaningful in a world where ISPs will not= have sufficient public IPv4 addresses for all the customers. The same as t= he actual document talks about DS-LITE, should mention updated technologies= . Otherwise we need two documents, one for IPv6-only CPEs, one for CPEs tha= t still need to support IPv4. =20 > The market is not necessarily doing the right thing if IETF is no= t > there helping with some guidance. And in fact this situation is a > clear example: We asked support for 6rd and DS-Lite, and it is th= ere > in many vendors, but those mechanisms are no longer the =E2=80=9C= best=E2=80=9D > choices, and as we didn=E2=80=99t explicitly asked support for ne= wer > (IPv6-only mechanisms), they are not there, while the ISPs requir= e it. =20 They will be there if the ISPs ask for it. You already mentioned th= at you'd found two different CPE vendors that implemented the transiti= on technology you wanted - so why not simply buy your CPEs from them? = You (and others) doing that is the best way to make their competitors follow suit. =20 =E2=87=92 Believe me, is not that way. Unless you have a strong purchas= ing power, small ISPs (and there are many with just a few hundreds or thous= ands of customers), vendors will not update their code for you, even if tha= t=E2=80=99s pretty easy to do. And even more, sometimes vendors provide fir= mware updated to existing hardware if is not too old, but they don=E2=80=99= t support new transition mechanism because a small ISP ask for it. Look for= example at Mikrotik, I=E2=80=99ve many customers using this and they don= =E2=80=99t have support for 6rd, DS-LITE, NAT64, 464LAT, Sofwires, etc. It = is true that Mikrotik is more used as a corporate (SME) CPE, but also in ma= ny Wireless deployments (for reaching remote residential customers). Howeve= r, if you look to the =E2=80=9Cmajor=E2=80=9D CPE vendors for all the acces= s technologies (Technicolor, Arris, Linksys, Comtrend, Asus, AVM, Belkin, B= uffalo, D-link, Huawei, Netgear, TP-Link, Trendnet, ZTE, Zyxel and so and s= o), most of them have implemented only 6RD and DS-LITE, because that=E2=80= =99s what we have in this document! So they really follow it. =20 In any case, assuming you want to avoid having 7084bis require ever= y single one of the many transition technologies that exist, but inst= ead single out "best", to use your word, you first have to get consensu= s on which one actually is the "best". That sounds like going down th= e rathole to me. =20 =E2=87=92 We can workout a text that explain different scenarios and po= ssible mechanisms for each of them. There is no need to say all them must b= e supported, but a recommendation. After all, the code to support most of t= hem is 1) open source 2) very compact 3) some times even shared code. What = it means is that if a vendor want to support several of them, is possible i= n most of the devices that already support dual-stack, 6rd, ds-lite. Basic= s are almost the same. =20 > An alternative is to have an IPv6-only CE requirements document. =20 Listing the technical requirements specific to delivering IPv6 inde= ed precisely what a properly focused IPV6 CE router document should contain. Anything else, such as stating which IPv4 transition technology is the "best", should be considered out of scope. =20 If the CE vendor decides to also implement support for 464XLAT it c= an find perfectly fine guidance on how to go about doing that in RFC68= 77. 4RD? RFC7600. MAP-E? RFC7597. And so forth. =20 =E2=87=92 Look at what is being actually implemented: 6rd and DS-lite, = just what we have at this document. =20 Tore =20 =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. 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[v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Thread-Index: AQHSNsFu25M3UUYHzEODcR141XCPo6DJhDaAgAACmgCAAAuZAIAAFDEAgAARVwCAAIUUlIAAB00f Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 11:36:57 +0000 Message-ID: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <20161104210012.12f68beb@envy.e1.y.home> <20161104231432.3f3cd322@envy.e1.y.home> , <92581B6A-EE3D-4CB1-AF4B-B333D4F2B903@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: <92581B6A-EE3D-4CB1-AF4B-B333D4F2B903@consulintel.es> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_E9E64F00D5B549A092DD21CF57547A2Eciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "tore@fud.no" Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 11:37:02 -0000 --_000_E9E64F00D5B549A092DD21CF57547A2Eciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Sm9yZGksDQoNCkkgYWdyZWUgdG8geW91ciByZWFzb25pbmcuIEkgd2lzaCA3MDg0IGZvY3VzZWQg b24gb25seSB2NiByZXF1aXJlbWVudHMgYW5kIHRoZXJlIHdhcyBhbm90aGVyIGRvY3VtZW50IHRo YXQgZm9jdXNlZCBvbiB2NCBvdmVybGF5IChhbmQgd2hhdGV2ZXIgZWxzZSkgcmVxdWlyZW1lbnRz IGluIGEgc2VwYXJhdGUgZG9jdW1lbnQuIFBlcmhhcHMsIHdlIGhhdmUgYW4gb3Bwb3J0dW5pdHkg dG8gZG8gdGhhdCBub3cuDQoNClRha2luZyBhIGxvbmctdGVybSB2aWV3ICg1LTEweXIgb3V0KSwg c3VjaCBhIHNlcGFyYXRpb24gd291bGQgYmUgdXNlZnVsIGZvciB2ZW5kb3JzIHRvIG5vdCBibG9h dCB3aXRoIHVud2FudGVkIGZlYXR1cmVzIHRoYXQgd29uJ3QgYmUgdXNlZnVsIHRvIGV2ZXJ5IElT UC4NCg0KT2YgY291cnNlLCB0aGF0J3Mgbm90IHRvIHNheSB0aGF0IHRob3NlIGZlYXR1cmVzIHN1 Y2ggYXMgNDY0WExBVCwgTUFQLVQvRSBldGMuIGFyZSBub3QgdXNlZnVsIGF0IHRoZSBtb21lbnQu 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[184.191.158.59]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j191sm5469381oih.12.2016.11.05.11.59.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 05 Nov 2016 11:59:12 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.1 \(3251\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <79D538C7-504D-4719-9C67-27EE524E8DB1@consulintel.es> Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 11:59:10 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <581D8B91.4070602@forthnet.gr> <79D538C7-504D-4719-9C67-27EE524E8DB1@consulintel.es> To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 18:59:16 -0000 Speaking for myself. One of the things that I would draw out of your list is that there is no = market consensus. A vendor decides what features to put in a product = based not on what the standards require, but what customers require. If = he can=E2=80=99t sell more of a product by adding a feature, he has = little argument for adding it. And the vendors see little revenue = benefit to adding random transition technologies. My personal guess, not based on data, of actual requirements is CGN for = IPv4 in some form (could be translation to IPv6 or translation to = another IPv4 address) plus native IPv6. 464XLAT adds NAT64 at a network = boundary, and is an ISP issue. =E2=80=9CDual Stack=E2=80=9D was intended = to mean that one could turn IPv4 off or IPv6 off and have full operation = either way, but was running both at the same time. =E2=80=9CDual = Stack=E2=80=9D as implemented usually means that some functionality = requires IPv4 but IPv6 data is transported. The rest of what you mention = are tunneling technologies in one form or another, a way to have IPvX be = able to work around an IPvY-only domain. Again, those are usually ISP = options - the ISP wants to deliver IPv6 service to residential = customers, perhaps, but has an IPv4-only service between it and its = customer, or the ISP wants to deliver dual stack service to a = residential customer but is itself IPv6-only. Vendors will deliver to = ISPs what the ISPs require in their RFI/RFQ. If one can demonstrate a consensus, a standard shouldn=E2=80=99t be = difficult to write or argue for. Absent that, I=E2=80=99m not holding my = breath. > On Nov 5, 2016, at 2:54 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve also some trials with DSL customers, thousands of users = each trial. >=20 > Some of those trials have been running for a couple of years already, = and the reason not to go into commercial is precisely because they will = prefer to use the same transition mechanism in all the network (they are = using 464XLAT in the cellular trial), but the vendors aren=E2=80=99t = supporting it and one of the arguments is not suggested as a requirement = from the IETF ... >=20 > Also looking at the recent IPv6 survey I can see the following stats: > 1) 5 LTE/router deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, = global IPv6). > 2) 2 LTE/router deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global = IPv6). > 3) 1 LTE/router deployment with DS-Lite. > 4) 2 LTE/router deployment with tunnel broker. > 5) 1 Cable deployment with 464XLAT. > 6) 2 Cable deployments with 6to4. > 7) 2 Cable deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global = IPv6) > 8) 2 Cable deployments with DS-Lite. > 9) 42 Cable deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6) > 10) 1 Cable deployment with lw4o6. > 11) 1 Cable deployment with MAP-T. > 12) 2 Cable deployments with tunnel broker. > 13) 5 FTTH deployments with 464XLAT. > 14) 2 FTTH deployments with 6RD. > 15) 8 FTTH deployments with 6to4. > 16) 7 FTTH deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global = IPv6). > 17) 4 FTTH deployments with DS-Lite. > 18) 93 FTTH deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > 19) 1 FTTH deployment with MAP-E. > 20) 1 FTTH deployment with tunnel broker. > 21) 4 xDSL deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global = IPv6). > 22) 7 xDSL deployments with DS-Lite. > 23) 71 xDSL deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > 24) 9 xDSL deployments with 6RD. > 25) 3 xDSL deployments with 464XLAT. > 26) 2 xDSL deployments with tunnel broker. > 27) 1 xDSL deployment using softwires (L2TP). > 28) 6 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployments with dual stack - = CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6). > 29) 22 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployments with dual stack = (public IPv4, global IPv6). > 30) 1 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployment with 464XLAT. >=20 > In addition to all that, there are some other access technologies = being used, with different transition mechanisms. >=20 > By the way, most of the 464XLAT deployments are done using OpenWRT, = taking advantage of existing CPEs that can be reflashed, because lack of = support from the original vendors. >=20 > The survey got already 1.223 responses up to now. I=E2=80=99m = providing here only the numbers for those that responded with specific = details about the transition technology. There are many other answers = with have left this empty, probably customers that don=E2=80=99t know. = In general, more complete responses come from the ISP employees, which = also provide the contact details, and I talked with them in some cases = to clarify specific answers to the survey. >=20 > I did a recent presentation at the last RIPE meeting (not going into = so many detailed data as here) > Slides - = https://ripe73.ripe.net/presentations/22-IPv6-survey-October-2016.pdf > Video - https://ripe73.ripe.net/archives/video/1242/ >=20 > Survey available here, if you still haven=E2=80=99t answered it or = something changed in your network: > http://survey.consulintel.es/index.php/175122 >=20 >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > -----Mensaje original----- > De: v6ops en nombre de Tassos = Chatzithomaoglou > Responder a: > Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 5 de noviembre de 2016, 8:34 > Para: "v6ops@ietf.org" > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic = Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers >=20 > Mikael Abrahamsson wrote on 4/11/16 23:58: >> On Fri, 4 Nov 2016, Sander Steffann wrote: >>=20 >>> At least in the Netherlands DS-Lite has been deployed to hundreds of = thousands of users already, and the numbers are still going up. I think = that ISPs did nothing with DS-Lite is a misconception. >>=20 >> All the ds.lite I know of are from Cable providers, ie DOCSIS3 = deployments. >>=20 >> Do you see ds.lite in any other space, ie non-cable operators? >>=20 > We, as a fixed/DSL operator, use DS-Lite on a large percentage of = our subscribers. > Recently we started adding PCP to the mix. >=20 > -- > Tassos >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the = individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be = aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents = of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Mon Nov 7 05:36:00 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DEA3129656 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 05:35:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.288 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.288 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=neutral reason="invalid (public key: not available)" header.d=telecentro.net.ar Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Xo7gZbuX4Lq9 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 05:35:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.telecentro.net.ar (mail.telecentro.net.ar [190.55.63.7]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D5C91294C4 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 05:35:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.telecentro.net.ar (Postfix) with ESMTP id BFD8BFA5504; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 10:35:52 -0300 (ART) Received: from mail.telecentro.net.ar ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (tclmail6.telecentro.local [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id KkhJxek7dm0X; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 10:35:50 -0300 (ART) Received: from localhost (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.telecentro.net.ar (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C92DFA4BD1; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 10:35:50 -0300 (ART) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 mail.telecentro.net.ar 6C92DFA4BD1 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=telecentro.net.ar; s=24ECF6D8-6D11-11E5-A0E5-36DF068F9D73; t=1478525750; bh=cdbsHz/+t4Y/RjjrOEqA3OvyGqLKLkahWB59Yxpa2aM=; h=Date:From:To:Message-ID:MIME-Version; b=vK6gaofxUdh2oI9kJiR5ID9/FPTFJ5lfw+q5VlTpa7oBOCdeEA1bIVOV0utqBZVNu muKv8zG0c8O2HgTpyJ3G8TDNj7jG4yO4p4237Pi4mQVGDF8f3QSK9U19mslUQJzjdg AWQD/8v+e1bjGVeO8kok8lUebNEI1NGhXOMKZ8GI= X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at tclmail6.telecentro.local Received: from mail.telecentro.net.ar ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (tclmail6.telecentro.local [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id NXKhvIk9suFd; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 10:35:50 -0300 (ART) Received: from tclmail6.telecentro.local (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by mail.telecentro.net.ar (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3892BFA481F; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 10:35:50 -0300 (ART) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 10:35:48 -0300 (ART) From: Alejandro D'Egidio To: Fred Baker Message-ID: <1977255708.2206967.1478525748858.JavaMail.zimbra@telecentro.net.ar> In-Reply-To: References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <581D8B91.4070602@forthnet.gr> <79D538C7-504D-4719-9C67-27EE524E8DB1@consulintel.es> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Originating-IP: [10.210.50.96] X-Mailer: Zimbra 8.7.0_GA_1659 (ZimbraWebClient - GC54 (Win)/8.7.0_GA_1659) Thread-Topic: do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Thread-Index: Z1CL0PdGe/md/B7p1kQIeh7BGPjIgA== Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 13:35:58 -0000 Dears, RFC6877 was released in April 2013 and RFC7084 was released in November 2= 013. If RFC6877 doesn't need any update yet, it's ok I think but since Novembe= r 2013 until now appeared now definitions like RFC7599 and RFC7597 (July 20= 15). In RFC7084 section "4.4. Transition Technologies Support" is specified 6R= D and DS-Lite. Do you really think that 6RD "must" be supported in a CPE of 2016? RFC7084 puts 6RD as a Transition Technologies Support and doesn't it incl= ude 464XLAT, MAP-T, MAP-E? On the other hand, in CableModems is not included 464XLAT (CLAT) yet beca= use vendors don't want to include it. I have talked to Sagemcom, Technicolo= r and Cisco (now Cisco sold CPEs to Technicolor); they don't want implement= it because they don't have enough requirements yet (how many are enought?)= and if I want it I should request it to Broadcom (vendor of chipset includ= ed in all these CMs). Ok, I've talked to Broadcom also and they neither wan= t to implement it because they say that they have DS-Lite, for them it work= s and we don't need any other protocol. I can not beleive this kind of answ= er. I have included RFC6877 in RFPs for new CMs as a mandatory feature but no= one wanted to perform with this feature, so I had to remove it as a mandat= ory because if not I wouldn't be able to buy anyone. Regarding CGN, as we don't have more public IPv4, we didn't have any othe= r option than deploy a CGN. For now, customers have Dual Stack (private IPv= 4 + IPv6). Lets think that with the inclusion of (for example) 464XLAT, ISPs like us= won't need to deploy IPv4 (in normal cases). Regards, Alejandro D'Egidio=20 Jefe de Ingenier=C3=ADa de Backbone=20 [ mailto:adegidio@telecentro.net.ar | adegidio@telecentro.net.ar ]=20 Lavard=C3=A9n 157 | Tel: 54 11 3977 1025=20 C1437FBC | CABA | Argentina=20 TELECENTRO S.A.=20 ESTE MENSAJE ES CONFIDENCIAL. Puede contener informaci=C3=B3n amparada por = el secreto profesional. Si usted ha recibido este e-mail por error, por fav= or comun=C3=ADquenoslo inmediatamente v=C3=ADa e-mail y tenga la amabilidad= de eliminarlo de su sistema; no deber=C3=A1 copiar el mensaje ni divulgar = su contenido a ninguna persona. Muchas gracias.=20 THIS MESSAGE IS CONFIDENTIAL. It may also contain information that is privi= leged or otherwise legally exempt from disclosure. If you have received it = by mistake please let us know by e-mail immediately and delete it from your= system; should also not copy the message nor disclose its contents to anyo= ne. Many thanks. ----- Mensaje original ----- De: "Fred Baker" Para: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" CC: v6ops@ietf.org Enviados: S=C3=A1bado, 5 de Noviembre 2016 15:59:10 Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for= IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Speaking for myself. One of the things that I would draw out of your list is that there is no ma= rket consensus. A vendor decides what features to put in a product based no= t on what the standards require, but what customers require. If he can=E2= =80=99t sell more of a product by adding a feature, he has little argument = for adding it. And the vendors see little revenue benefit to adding random = transition technologies. My personal guess, not based on data, of actual requirements is CGN for IPv= 4 in some form (could be translation to IPv6 or translation to another IPv4= address) plus native IPv6. 464XLAT adds NAT64 at a network boundary, and i= s an ISP issue. =E2=80=9CDual Stack=E2=80=9D was intended to mean that one = could turn IPv4 off or IPv6 off and have full operation either way, but was= running both at the same time. =E2=80=9CDual Stack=E2=80=9D as implemented= usually means that some functionality requires IPv4 but IPv6 data is trans= ported. The rest of what you mention are tunneling technologies in one form= or another, a way to have IPvX be able to work around an IPvY-only domain.= Again, those are usually ISP options - the ISP wants to deliver IPv6 servi= ce to residential customers, perhaps, but has an IPv4-only service between = it and its customer, or the ISP wants to deliver dual stack service to a re= sidential customer but is itself IPv6-only. Vendors will deliver to ISPs wh= at the ISPs require in their RFI/RFQ. If one can demonstrate a consensus, a standard shouldn=E2=80=99t be difficu= lt to write or argue for. Absent that, I=E2=80=99m not holding my breath. > On Nov 5, 2016, at 2:54 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve also some trials with DSL customers, thousands of users each= trial. >=20 > Some of those trials have been running for a couple of years already, and= the reason not to go into commercial is precisely because they will prefer= to use the same transition mechanism in all the network (they are using 46= 4XLAT in the cellular trial), but the vendors aren=E2=80=99t supporting it = and one of the arguments is not suggested as a requirement from the IETF ..= . >=20 > Also looking at the recent IPv6 survey I can see the following stats: > 1) 5 LTE/router deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global I= Pv6). > 2) 2 LTE/router deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > 3) 1 LTE/router deployment with DS-Lite. > 4) 2 LTE/router deployment with tunnel broker. > 5) 1 Cable deployment with 464XLAT. > 6) 2 Cable deployments with 6to4. > 7) 2 Cable deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6) > 8) 2 Cable deployments with DS-Lite. > 9) 42 Cable deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6) > 10) 1 Cable deployment with lw4o6. > 11) 1 Cable deployment with MAP-T. > 12) 2 Cable deployments with tunnel broker. > 13) 5 FTTH deployments with 464XLAT. > 14) 2 FTTH deployments with 6RD. > 15) 8 FTTH deployments with 6to4. > 16) 7 FTTH deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6). > 17) 4 FTTH deployments with DS-Lite. > 18) 93 FTTH deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > 19) 1 FTTH deployment with MAP-E. > 20) 1 FTTH deployment with tunnel broker. > 21) 4 xDSL deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6). > 22) 7 xDSL deployments with DS-Lite. > 23) 71 xDSL deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > 24) 9 xDSL deployments with 6RD. > 25) 3 xDSL deployments with 464XLAT. > 26) 2 xDSL deployments with tunnel broker. > 27) 1 xDSL deployment using softwires (L2TP). > 28) 6 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployments with dual stack - CG= N (private IPv4, global IPv6). > 29) 22 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployments with dual stack (pu= blic IPv4, global IPv6). > 30) 1 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployment with 464XLAT. >=20 > In addition to all that, there are some other access technologies being u= sed, with different transition mechanisms. >=20 > By the way, most of the 464XLAT deployments are done using OpenWRT, takin= g advantage of existing CPEs that can be reflashed, because lack of support= from the original vendors. >=20 > The survey got already 1.223 responses up to now. I=E2=80=99m providing h= ere only the numbers for those that responded with specific details about t= he transition technology. There are many other answers with have left this = empty, probably customers that don=E2=80=99t know. In general, more complet= e responses come from the ISP employees, which also provide the contact det= ails, and I talked with them in some cases to clarify specific answers to t= he survey. >=20 > I did a recent presentation at the last RIPE meeting (not going into so m= any detailed data as here) > Slides - https://ripe73.ripe.net/presentations/22-IPv6-survey-October-201= 6.pdf > Video - https://ripe73.ripe.net/archives/video/1242/ >=20 > Survey available here, if you still haven=E2=80=99t answered it or someth= ing changed in your network: > http://survey.consulintel.es/index.php/175122 >=20 >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > -----Mensaje original----- > De: v6ops en nombre de Tassos Chatzithomaoglou <= achatz@forthnet.gr> > Responder a: > Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 5 de noviembre de 2016, 8:34 > Para: "v6ops@ietf.org" > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements f= or IPv6 Customer Edge Routers >=20 > Mikael Abrahamsson wrote on 4/11/16 23:58: >> On Fri, 4 Nov 2016, Sander Steffann wrote: >>=20 >>> At least in the Netherlands DS-Lite has been deployed to hundreds of th= ousands of users already, and the numbers are still going up. I think that = ISPs did nothing with DS-Lite is a misconception. >>=20 >> All the ds.lite I know of are from Cable providers, ie DOCSIS3 deploymen= ts. >>=20 >> Do you see ds.lite in any other space, ie non-cable operators? >>=20 > We, as a fixed/DSL operator, use DS-Lite on a large percentage of our= subscribers. > Recently we started adding PCP to the mix. >=20 > -- > Tassos >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or c= onfidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individua= l(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any d= isclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information= , including attached files, is prohibited. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Mon Nov 7 06:12:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 651A41296A5 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 06:12:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sMLtO6N9E98I for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 06:12:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yb0-x22a.google.com (mail-yb0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6AFED129640 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 06:12:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yb0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id o7so53453576ybb.0 for ; Mon, 07 Nov 2016 06:12:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=7GGYNxZ+3Z7t6Tnn+NBFiLfYRDBal3l7MxJTJfMDxSE=; b=L/TmYiSc6YU9/RKyWiLGLDGZjnrmV8zPn/aYhYBGOk3c2Fp33nqa5xsMVZlzDvv9gU 9q8UPrBs5WBveCXr6ZgjGEOApF/D21frDC9qWQIFYz5M6GORne6u3xOMl7tWyFrMNs8H JuNHLFhmjtXLjBAQKf3xJUyR/I05a0OmpzA4Whq8DJiFQU1AEyB2Hzqr1Nq3/OAvZ/q/ BWVqLx7HpM+GclCT4I1qnI9uo3PC/oGrhfj19YJJPuHAVsE3ixxToL26KwQuu1o2qa16 HeyEIXi723jycjH2Mym5pDqwmnnOu3oGSJhKvTnz0Lw2i0mjdN8P6FgqjWdRnqvCQNw6 tyfA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7GGYNxZ+3Z7t6Tnn+NBFiLfYRDBal3l7MxJTJfMDxSE=; b=eQXv1witXXxpYPyRp8U+pn0++AG4Qhw6V/GoShcgzqh4PsmXup58ynAMdtTQvhFGkg xeRCNKj56MlaVnv4xBfS26z6aYeepDEEl0WMgs8SlVL5MX6DFjOWJOcZ2yVTR61Axj4b Z/mjmOrWEBgDJF3tXSnypkLEzRbixy3eCKpyulVQO7DhgNWDPx4klDriCmHnUJUg3Nd2 6kHV2NB5riZmHjktmdbjFM8YYd0//y8/F5LFzSIxba9rg1HgXMNpsIO13o08w+HWgiRb F8X5+SxsmZtqcFLuxl4Vz6D47BhNV1nKwkcdB6Nf9NHkec8uQzpd5STN2F2EWV5YSd3T S7qg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvctFlkqw9ZG+BE7mYVX4qv99/gAeJJXlpG0tRFKftC2HU48w1hgUFFt+hoQ+S4oQNnl+ivvMzDENWjB2w== X-Received: by 10.157.54.245 with SMTP id s50mr1539237otd.181.1478527948474; Mon, 07 Nov 2016 06:12:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.15.33 with HTTP; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 06:12:27 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1977255708.2206967.1478525748858.JavaMail.zimbra@telecentro.net.ar> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <581D8B91.4070602@forthnet.gr> <79D538C7-504D-4719-9C67-27EE524E8DB1@consulintel.es> <1977255708.2206967.1478525748858.JavaMail.zimbra@telecentro.net.ar> From: Hemant Singh Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 09:12:27 -0500 Message-ID: To: "Alejandro D'Egidio" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113b080228cfce0540b69dc9 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 14:12:33 -0000 --001a113b080228cfce0540b69dc9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable +1 to Barbara. Service providers who deploy landline Internet access such as cable and DSL should come forward to v6ops and give their input if they would like to deploy 464XLAT. I also agree with RajivA on MAP-T/E. Further, it was rfc6204 which was an IPv6-only CE router requirements doc. It was rfc7084 that added transition tech because the WG asked for it and the transition tech there were RFCs at the time was added. Hemant On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 8:35 AM, Alejandro D'Egidio < adegidio@telecentro.net.ar> wrote: > Dears, > RFC6877 was released in April 2013 and RFC7084 was released in November > 2013. > If RFC6877 doesn't need any update yet, it's ok I think but since > November 2013 until now appeared now definitions like RFC7599 and RFC7597 > (July 2015). > In RFC7084 section "4.4. Transition Technologies Support" is specified > 6RD and DS-Lite. > Do you really think that 6RD "must" be supported in a CPE of 2016? > RFC7084 puts 6RD as a Transition Technologies Support and doesn't it > include 464XLAT, MAP-T, MAP-E? > > On the other hand, in CableModems is not included 464XLAT (CLAT) yet > because vendors don't want to include it. I have talked to Sagemcom, > Technicolor and Cisco (now Cisco sold CPEs to Technicolor); they don't wa= nt > implement it because they don't have enough requirements yet (how many ar= e > enought?) and if I want it I should request it to Broadcom (vendor of > chipset included in all these CMs). Ok, I've talked to Broadcom also and > they neither want to implement it because they say that they have DS-Lite= , > for them it works and we don't need any other protocol. I can not beleive > this kind of answer. > > I have included RFC6877 in RFPs for new CMs as a mandatory feature but > no one wanted to perform with this feature, so I had to remove it as a > mandatory because if not I wouldn't be able to buy anyone. > > Regarding CGN, as we don't have more public IPv4, we didn't have any > other option than deploy a CGN. For now, customers have Dual Stack (priva= te > IPv4 + IPv6). > Lets think that with the inclusion of (for example) 464XLAT, ISPs like > us won't need to deploy IPv4 (in normal cases). > > > Regards, > > Alejandro D'Egidio > Jefe de Ingenier=C3=ADa de Backbone > [ mailto:adegidio@telecentro.net.ar | adegidio@telecentro.net.ar ] > > Lavard=C3=A9n 157 | Tel: 54 11 3977 1025 > C1437FBC | CABA | Argentina > TELECENTRO S.A. > > ESTE MENSAJE ES CONFIDENCIAL. Puede contener informaci=C3=B3n amparada po= r el > secreto profesional. Si usted ha recibido este e-mail por error, por favo= r > comun=C3=ADquenoslo inmediatamente v=C3=ADa e-mail y tenga la amabilidad = de > eliminarlo de su sistema; no deber=C3=A1 copiar el mensaje ni divulgar su > contenido a ninguna persona. Muchas gracias. > > THIS MESSAGE IS CONFIDENTIAL. It may also contain information that is > privileged or otherwise legally exempt from disclosure. If you have > received it by mistake please let us know by e-mail immediately and delet= e > it from your system; should also not copy the message nor disclose its > contents to anyone. Many thanks. > > ----- Mensaje original ----- > De: "Fred Baker" > Para: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" > CC: v6ops@ietf.org > Enviados: S=C3=A1bado, 5 de Noviembre 2016 15:59:10 > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements > for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers > > Speaking for myself. > > One of the things that I would draw out of your list is that there is no > market consensus. A vendor decides what features to put in a product base= d > not on what the standards require, but what customers require. If he can= =E2=80=99t > sell more of a product by adding a feature, he has little argument for > adding it. And the vendors see little revenue benefit to adding random > transition technologies. > > My personal guess, not based on data, of actual requirements is CGN for > IPv4 in some form (could be translation to IPv6 or translation to another > IPv4 address) plus native IPv6. 464XLAT adds NAT64 at a network boundary, > and is an ISP issue. =E2=80=9CDual Stack=E2=80=9D was intended to mean th= at one could turn > IPv4 off or IPv6 off and have full operation either way, but was running > both at the same time. =E2=80=9CDual Stack=E2=80=9D as implemented usuall= y means that some > functionality requires IPv4 but IPv6 data is transported. The rest of wha= t > you mention are tunneling technologies in one form or another, a way to > have IPvX be able to work around an IPvY-only domain. Again, those are > usually ISP options - the ISP wants to deliver IPv6 service to residentia= l > customers, perhaps, but has an IPv4-only service between it and its > customer, or the ISP wants to deliver dual stack service to a residential > customer but is itself IPv6-only. Vendors will deliver to ISPs what the > ISPs require in their RFI/RFQ. > > If one can demonstrate a consensus, a standard shouldn=E2=80=99t be diffi= cult to > write or argue for. Absent that, I=E2=80=99m not holding my breath. > > > On Nov 5, 2016, at 2:54 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ < > jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote: > > > > I=E2=80=99ve also some trials with DSL customers, thousands of users ea= ch trial. > > > > Some of those trials have been running for a couple of years already, > and the reason not to go into commercial is precisely because they will > prefer to use the same transition mechanism in all the network (they are > using 464XLAT in the cellular trial), but the vendors aren=E2=80=99t supp= orting it > and one of the arguments is not suggested as a requirement from the IETF = ... > > > > Also looking at the recent IPv6 survey I can see the following stats: > > 1) 5 LTE/router deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global > IPv6). > > 2) 2 LTE/router deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > > 3) 1 LTE/router deployment with DS-Lite. > > 4) 2 LTE/router deployment with tunnel broker. > > 5) 1 Cable deployment with 464XLAT. > > 6) 2 Cable deployments with 6to4. > > 7) 2 Cable deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6= ) > > 8) 2 Cable deployments with DS-Lite. > > 9) 42 Cable deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6) > > 10) 1 Cable deployment with lw4o6. > > 11) 1 Cable deployment with MAP-T. > > 12) 2 Cable deployments with tunnel broker. > > 13) 5 FTTH deployments with 464XLAT. > > 14) 2 FTTH deployments with 6RD. > > 15) 8 FTTH deployments with 6to4. > > 16) 7 FTTH deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6= ). > > 17) 4 FTTH deployments with DS-Lite. > > 18) 93 FTTH deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > > 19) 1 FTTH deployment with MAP-E. > > 20) 1 FTTH deployment with tunnel broker. > > 21) 4 xDSL deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6= ). > > 22) 7 xDSL deployments with DS-Lite. > > 23) 71 xDSL deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > > 24) 9 xDSL deployments with 6RD. > > 25) 3 xDSL deployments with 464XLAT. > > 26) 2 xDSL deployments with tunnel broker. > > 27) 1 xDSL deployment using softwires (L2TP). > > 28) 6 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployments with dual stack - > CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6). > > 29) 22 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployments with dual stack > (public IPv4, global IPv6). > > 30) 1 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployment with 464XLAT. > > > > In addition to all that, there are some other access technologies being > used, with different transition mechanisms. > > > > By the way, most of the 464XLAT deployments are done using OpenWRT, > taking advantage of existing CPEs that can be reflashed, because lack of > support from the original vendors. > > > > The survey got already 1.223 responses up to now. I=E2=80=99m providing= here > only the numbers for those that responded with specific details about the > transition technology. There are many other answers with have left this > empty, probably customers that don=E2=80=99t know. In general, more compl= ete > responses come from the ISP employees, which also provide the contact > details, and I talked with them in some cases to clarify specific answers > to the survey. > > > > I did a recent presentation at the last RIPE meeting (not going into so > many detailed data as here) > > Slides - https://ripe73.ripe.net/presentations/22-IPv6-survey- > October-2016.pdf > > Video - https://ripe73.ripe.net/archives/video/1242/ > > > > Survey available here, if you still haven=E2=80=99t answered it or some= thing > changed in your network: > > http://survey.consulintel.es/index.php/175122 > > > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: v6ops en nombre de Tassos Chatzithomaoglou > > > Responder a: > > Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 5 de noviembre de 2016, 8:34 > > Para: "v6ops@ietf.org" > > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements > for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers > > > > Mikael Abrahamsson wrote on 4/11/16 23:58: > >> On Fri, 4 Nov 2016, Sander Steffann wrote: > >> > >>> At least in the Netherlands DS-Lite has been deployed to hundreds of > thousands of users already, and the numbers are still going up. I think > that ISPs did nothing with DS-Lite is a misconception. > >> > >> All the ds.lite I know of are from Cable providers, ie DOCSIS3 > deployments. > >> > >> Do you see ds.lite in any other space, ie non-cable operators? > >> > > We, as a fixed/DSL operator, use DS-Lite on a large percentage of > our subscribers. > > Recently we started adding PCP to the mix. > > > > -- > > Tassos > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.consulintel.es > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the > individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, including attached files, is prohibited. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --001a113b080228cfce0540b69dc9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+1 to Barbara.=C2=A0 Service providers who deploy landline= Internet access such as cable and DSL should come forward to v6ops and giv= e their input if they would like to deploy 464XLAT.=C2=A0 I also agree with= RajivA on MAP-T/E.=C2=A0 Further, it was=C2=A0rfc6204 which was an IPv6-on= ly CE router requirements doc.=C2=A0 It was rfc7084 that added transition t= ech because the WG asked for it and the transition tech there were RFCs at = the time was added.=C2=A0

Hemant

On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 8:35= AM, Alejandro D'Egidio <adegidio@telecentro.net.ar> wrote:
Dears,
=C2=A0 RFC6877 was released in April 2013 and RFC7084 was released in Novem= ber 2013.
=C2=A0 If RFC6877 doesn't need any update yet, it's ok I think but = since November 2013 until now appeared now definitions like RFC7599 and RFC= 7597 (July 2015).
=C2=A0 In RFC7084 section "4.4. Transition Technologies Support" = is specified 6RD and DS-Lite.
=C2=A0 Do you really think that 6RD "must" be supported in a CPE = of 2016?
=C2=A0 RFC7084 puts 6RD as a Transition Technologies Support and doesn'= t it include 464XLAT, MAP-T, MAP-E?

=C2=A0 On the other hand, in CableModems is not included 464XLAT (CLAT) yet= because vendors don't want to include it. I have talked to Sagemcom, T= echnicolor and Cisco (now Cisco sold CPEs to Technicolor); they don't w= ant implement it because they don't have enough requirements yet (how m= any are enought?) and if I want it I should request it to Broadcom (vendor = of chipset included in all these CMs). Ok, I've talked to Broadcom also= and they neither want to implement it because they say that they have DS-L= ite, for them it works and we don't need any other protocol. I can not = beleive this kind of answer.

=C2=A0 I have included RFC6877 in RFPs for new CMs as a mandatory feature b= ut no one wanted to perform with this feature, so I had to remove it as a m= andatory because if not I wouldn't be able to buy anyone.

=C2=A0 Regarding CGN, as we don't have more public IPv4, we didn't = have any other option than deploy a CGN. For now, customers have Dual Stack= (private IPv4 + IPv6).
=C2=A0 Lets think that with the inclusion of (for example) 464XLAT, ISPs li= ke us won't need to deploy IPv4 (in normal cases).


Regards,

Alejandro D'Egidio
Jefe de Ingenier=C3=ADa de Backbone
[ mailto:adegidio@telecentro.= net.ar | adegidio@te= lecentro.net.ar ]

Lavard=C3=A9n 157 | Tel: 54 11 3977 1025
C1437FBC | CABA | Argentina
TELECENTRO S.A.

ESTE MENSAJE ES CONFIDENCIAL. Puede contener informaci=C3=B3n amparada por = el secreto profesional. Si usted ha recibido este e-mail por error, por fav= or comun=C3=ADquenoslo inmediatamente v=C3=ADa e-mail y tenga la amabilidad= de eliminarlo de su sistema; no deber=C3=A1 copiar el mensaje ni divulgar = su contenido a ninguna persona. Muchas gracias.

THIS MESSAGE IS CONFIDENTIAL. It may also contain information that is privi= leged or otherwise legally exempt from disclosure. If you have received it = by mistake please let us know by e-mail immediately and delete it from your= system; should also not copy the message nor disclose its contents to anyo= ne. Many thanks.

----- Mensaje original -----
De: "Fred Baker" <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
Para: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>
CC: v6ops@ietf.org
Enviados: S=C3=A1bado, 5 de Noviembre 2016 15:59:10
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to u= pdate RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers

Speaking for myself.

One of the things that I would draw out of your list is that there is no ma= rket consensus. A vendor decides what features to put in a product based no= t on what the standards require, but what customers require. If he can=E2= =80=99t sell more of a product by adding a feature, he has little argument = for adding it. And the vendors see little revenue benefit to adding random = transition technologies.

My personal guess, not based on data, of actual requirements is CGN for IPv= 4 in some form (could be translation to IPv6 or translation to another IPv4= address) plus native IPv6. 464XLAT adds NAT64 at a network boundary, and i= s an ISP issue. =E2=80=9CDual Stack=E2=80=9D was intended to mean that one = could turn IPv4 off or IPv6 off and have full operation either way, but was= running both at the same time. =E2=80=9CDual Stack=E2=80=9D as implemented= usually means that some functionality requires IPv4 but IPv6 data is trans= ported. The rest of what you mention are tunneling technologies in one form= or another, a way to have IPvX be able to work around an IPvY-only domain.= Again, those are usually ISP options - the ISP wants to deliver IPv6 servi= ce to residential customers, perhaps, but has an IPv4-only service between = it and its customer, or the ISP wants to deliver dual stack service to a re= sidential customer but is itself IPv6-only. Vendors will deliver to ISPs wh= at the ISPs require in their RFI/RFQ.

If one can demonstrate a consensus, a standard shouldn=E2=80=99t be difficu= lt to write or argue for. Absent that, I=E2=80=99m not holding my breath.
> On Nov 5, 2016, at 2:54 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99ve also some trials with DSL customers, thousands of users e= ach trial.
>
> Some of those trials have been running for a couple of years already, = and the reason not to go into commercial is precisely because they will pre= fer to use the same transition mechanism in all the network (they are using= 464XLAT in the cellular trial), but the vendors aren=E2=80=99t supporting = it and one of the arguments is not suggested as a requirement from the IETF= ...
>
> Also looking at the recent IPv6 survey I can see the following stats:<= br> > 1) 5 LTE/router deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, globa= l IPv6).
> 2) 2 LTE/router deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6)= .
> 3) 1 LTE/router deployment with DS-Lite.
> 4) 2 LTE/router deployment with tunnel broker.
> 5) 1 Cable deployment with 464XLAT.
> 6) 2 Cable deployments with 6to4.
> 7) 2 Cable deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv= 6)
> 8) 2 Cable deployments with DS-Lite.
> 9) 42 Cable deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6)
> 10) 1 Cable deployment with lw4o6.
> 11) 1 Cable deployment with MAP-T.
> 12) 2 Cable deployments with tunnel broker.
> 13) 5 FTTH deployments with 464XLAT.
> 14) 2 FTTH deployments with 6RD.
> 15) 8 FTTH deployments with 6to4.
> 16) 7 FTTH deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv= 6).
> 17) 4 FTTH deployments with DS-Lite.
> 18) 93 FTTH deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > 19) 1 FTTH deployment with MAP-E.
> 20) 1 FTTH deployment with tunnel broker.
> 21) 4 xDSL deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv= 6).
> 22) 7 xDSL deployments with DS-Lite.
> 23) 71 xDSL deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > 24) 9 xDSL deployments with 6RD.
> 25) 3 xDSL deployments with 464XLAT.
> 26) 2 xDSL deployments with tunnel broker.
> 27) 1 xDSL deployment using softwires (L2TP).
> 28) 6 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployments with dual stack -= CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6).
> 29) 22 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployments with dual stack = (public IPv4, global IPv6).
> 30) 1 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployment with 464XLAT.
>
> In addition to all that, there are some other access technologies bein= g used, with different transition mechanisms.
>
> By the way, most of the 464XLAT deployments are done using OpenWRT, ta= king advantage of existing CPEs that can be reflashed, because lack of supp= ort from the original vendors.
>
> The survey got already 1.223 responses up to now. I=E2=80=99m providin= g here only the numbers for those that responded with specific details abou= t the transition technology. There are many other answers with have left th= is empty, probably customers that don=E2=80=99t know. In general, more comp= lete responses come from the ISP employees, which also provide the contact = details, and I talked with them in some cases to clarify specific answers t= o the survey.
>
> I did a recent presentation at the last RIPE meeting (not going into s= o many detailed data as here)
> Slides - https://ripe73.ri= pe.net/presentations/22-IPv6-survey-October-2016.pdf
> Video - https://ripe73.ripe.net/archives/vid= eo/1242/
>
> Survey available here, if you still haven=E2=80=99t answered it or som= ething changed in your network:
> http://survey.consulintel.es/index.php/175122=
>
>
> Regards,
> Jordi
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@= ietf.org> en nombre de Tassos Chatzithomaoglou <achatz@forthnet.gr>
> Responder a: <achatz@forthnet= .gr>
> Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 5 de noviembre de 2016, 8:34
> Para: "v6ops@ietf.org"= <v6ops@ietf.org>
> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirement= s for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mikael Abrahamsson wrote on 4/11/16 23:58:
>> On Fri, 4 Nov 2016, Sander Steffann wrote:
>>
>>> At least in the Netherlands DS-Lite has been deployed to hundr= eds of thousands of users already, and the numbers are still going up. I th= ink that ISPs did nothing with DS-Lite is a misconception.
>>
>> All the ds.lite I know of are from Cable providers, ie DOCSIS3 dep= loyments.
>>
>> Do you see ds.lite in any other space, ie non-cable operators?
>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 We, as a fixed/DSL operator, use DS-Lite=C2=A0 on a large= percentage of our subscribers.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Recently we started adding PCP to the mix.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tassos
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 v6ops mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 v6ops@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listi= nfo/v6ops
>
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.consulintel.es
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged o= r confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the indivi= dual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that an= y disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this informat= ion, including attached files, is prohibited.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

--001a113b080228cfce0540b69dc9-- From nobody Mon Nov 7 10:02:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 174BC12959C for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 10:02:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Jq2i1bCDLvZ2 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 10:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x22f.google.com (mail-wm0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4341112956F for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 10:02:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id a197so198587660wmd.0 for ; Mon, 07 Nov 2016 10:02:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QCowunZN1uBvFSdht5j7YsCI1QNyv97b47bdDXyPLps=; b=pGhtG6S16MpiTGwx2zFerIqiQBDRStN+Mzcu6SFCyaC1SFpF+CQrRBfLwxogOGXmkT 8S5HDbThKeccmjhNXA+RD2GJwsRO6ZHXm6C/pGQ9u7u6nn3a7rJhin+vcbzSVpSoQe8Z lqPbNYiHkkyltHMUwMlp9/pChgOOojBPQVVJFcjZBXds+4HHwJZRY4ovN1AhXT4XlGWp UK9xNCi8ts33s3yyYWhdIhxMYcmJogWrJPwpJALlBKplY2+MxZFpp+LIcHzv9V+aElAw RdNHi/4T7vf2kHOk3fITTDkoh6aBrXE7CBSdpUeFZKROl2jsq5I1lilu3DWuX5WfRDI4 YDPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QCowunZN1uBvFSdht5j7YsCI1QNyv97b47bdDXyPLps=; b=MWeBK2BZUm52qJ9DzOdvJFbwWeL5IWP/uC45NiQpa6jQHW45LttoOPCSeXjzzYc7nm jfqZZtxXwt7S48kl5JhCb2cFy6IX56eWX5mk+GNfbWxYLWaPnlqQYFhSNTPHOwek9Uij 8Z9cj2X2dCEnKlrAke2Ntd16z60jNnMiyMfIDgyk5vbWYlw3qvrYorrUexWqTpSrNd+a AowgNTgHuKsfN7uUM3iultST3x/AvDQmYevyGaBUAN0iwkMSyiq4OZX81PkUTvHcPHSE +wnACdFD7AMg5WZWeZxqxHIira+nwVq1UpS65z8LpJBr6xR5qFOIHvVxhuoAwOnGNH2o B++w== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvcWrHyneLb5bcYVQ0LlbtLMmUGXELQrRbdKfJzBAFkFG1EOyU7VwcXNpkNt8xz3PV8RUGP5sm9CBCbHug== X-Received: by 10.194.157.41 with SMTP id wj9mr3279495wjb.160.1478541721712; Mon, 07 Nov 2016 10:02:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <581D8B91.4070602@forthnet.gr> <79D538C7-504D-4719-9C67-27EE524E8DB1@consulintel.es> <1977255708.2206967.1478525748858.JavaMail.zimbra@telecentro.net.ar> In-Reply-To: <1977255708.2206967.1478525748858.JavaMail.zimbra@telecentro.net.ar> From: Ca By Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 18:01:50 +0000 Message-ID: To: "Alejandro D'Egidio" , Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=089e0112c5101bbe0b0540b9d244 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 18:02:06 -0000 --089e0112c5101bbe0b0540b9d244 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fyi, 464xlat is in openwrt for folks looking for it in home gateways https://lwn.net/Articles/657119/ On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 5:36 AM Alejandro D'Egidio < adegidio@telecentro.net.ar> wrote: > Dears, > RFC6877 was released in April 2013 and RFC7084 was released in November > 2013. > If RFC6877 doesn't need any update yet, it's ok I think but since > November 2013 until now appeared now definitions like RFC7599 and RFC7597 > (July 2015). > In RFC7084 section "4.4. Transition Technologies Support" is specified > 6RD and DS-Lite. > Do you really think that 6RD "must" be supported in a CPE of 2016? > RFC7084 puts 6RD as a Transition Technologies Support and doesn't it > include 464XLAT, MAP-T, MAP-E? > > On the other hand, in CableModems is not included 464XLAT (CLAT) yet > because vendors don't want to include it. I have talked to Sagemcom, > Technicolor and Cisco (now Cisco sold CPEs to Technicolor); they don't wa= nt > implement it because they don't have enough requirements yet (how many ar= e > enought?) and if I want it I should request it to Broadcom (vendor of > chipset included in all these CMs). Ok, I've talked to Broadcom also and > they neither want to implement it because they say that they have DS-Lite= , > for them it works and we don't need any other protocol. I can not beleive > this kind of answer. > > I have included RFC6877 in RFPs for new CMs as a mandatory feature but > no one wanted to perform with this feature, so I had to remove it as a > mandatory because if not I wouldn't be able to buy anyone. > > Regarding CGN, as we don't have more public IPv4, we didn't have any > other option than deploy a CGN. For now, customers have Dual Stack (priva= te > IPv4 + IPv6). > Lets think that with the inclusion of (for example) 464XLAT, ISPs like > us won't need to deploy IPv4 (in normal cases). > > > Regards, > > Alejandro D'Egidio > Jefe de Ingenier=C3=ADa de Backbone > [ mailto:adegidio@telecentro.net.ar | adegidio@telecentro.net.ar ] > > Lavard=C3=A9n 157 | Tel: 54 11 3977 1025 > C1437FBC | CABA | Argentina > TELECENTRO S.A. > > ESTE MENSAJE ES CONFIDENCIAL. Puede contener informaci=C3=B3n amparada po= r el > secreto profesional. Si usted ha recibido este e-mail por error, por favo= r > comun=C3=ADquenoslo inmediatamente v=C3=ADa e-mail y tenga la amabilidad = de > eliminarlo de su sistema; no deber=C3=A1 copiar el mensaje ni divulgar su > contenido a ninguna persona. Muchas gracias. > > THIS MESSAGE IS CONFIDENTIAL. It may also contain information that is > privileged or otherwise legally exempt from disclosure. If you have > received it by mistake please let us know by e-mail immediately and delet= e > it from your system; should also not copy the message nor disclose its > contents to anyone. Many thanks. > > ----- Mensaje original ----- > De: "Fred Baker" > Para: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" > CC: v6ops@ietf.org > Enviados: S=C3=A1bado, 5 de Noviembre 2016 15:59:10 > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements > for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers > > Speaking for myself. > > One of the things that I would draw out of your list is that there is no > market consensus. A vendor decides what features to put in a product base= d > not on what the standards require, but what customers require. If he can= =E2=80=99t > sell more of a product by adding a feature, he has little argument for > adding it. And the vendors see little revenue benefit to adding random > transition technologies. > > My personal guess, not based on data, of actual requirements is CGN for > IPv4 in some form (could be translation to IPv6 or translation to another > IPv4 address) plus native IPv6. 464XLAT adds NAT64 at a network boundary, > and is an ISP issue. =E2=80=9CDual Stack=E2=80=9D was intended to mean th= at one could turn > IPv4 off or IPv6 off and have full operation either way, but was running > both at the same time. =E2=80=9CDual Stack=E2=80=9D as implemented usuall= y means that some > functionality requires IPv4 but IPv6 data is transported. The rest of wha= t > you mention are tunneling technologies in one form or another, a way to > have IPvX be able to work around an IPvY-only domain. Again, those are > usually ISP options - the ISP wants to deliver IPv6 service to residentia= l > customers, perhaps, but has an IPv4-only service between it and its > customer, or the ISP wants to deliver dual stack service to a residential > customer but is itself IPv6-only. Vendors will deliver to ISPs what the > ISPs require in their RFI/RFQ. > > If one can demonstrate a consensus, a standard shouldn=E2=80=99t be diffi= cult to > write or argue for. Absent that, I=E2=80=99m not holding my breath. > > > On Nov 5, 2016, at 2:54 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ < > jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote: > > > > I=E2=80=99ve also some trials with DSL customers, thousands of users ea= ch trial. > > > > Some of those trials have been running for a couple of years already, > and the reason not to go into commercial is precisely because they will > prefer to use the same transition mechanism in all the network (they are > using 464XLAT in the cellular trial), but the vendors aren=E2=80=99t supp= orting it > and one of the arguments is not suggested as a requirement from the IETF = ... > > > > Also looking at the recent IPv6 survey I can see the following stats: > > 1) 5 LTE/router deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global > IPv6). > > 2) 2 LTE/router deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > > 3) 1 LTE/router deployment with DS-Lite. > > 4) 2 LTE/router deployment with tunnel broker. > > 5) 1 Cable deployment with 464XLAT. > > 6) 2 Cable deployments with 6to4. > > 7) 2 Cable deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6= ) > > 8) 2 Cable deployments with DS-Lite. > > 9) 42 Cable deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6) > > 10) 1 Cable deployment with lw4o6. > > 11) 1 Cable deployment with MAP-T. > > 12) 2 Cable deployments with tunnel broker. > > 13) 5 FTTH deployments with 464XLAT. > > 14) 2 FTTH deployments with 6RD. > > 15) 8 FTTH deployments with 6to4. > > 16) 7 FTTH deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6= ). > > 17) 4 FTTH deployments with DS-Lite. > > 18) 93 FTTH deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > > 19) 1 FTTH deployment with MAP-E. > > 20) 1 FTTH deployment with tunnel broker. > > 21) 4 xDSL deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6= ). > > 22) 7 xDSL deployments with DS-Lite. > > 23) 71 xDSL deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > > 24) 9 xDSL deployments with 6RD. > > 25) 3 xDSL deployments with 464XLAT. > > 26) 2 xDSL deployments with tunnel broker. > > 27) 1 xDSL deployment using softwires (L2TP). > > 28) 6 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployments with dual stack - > CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6). > > 29) 22 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployments with dual stack > (public IPv4, global IPv6). > > 30) 1 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployment with 464XLAT. > > > > In addition to all that, there are some other access technologies being > used, with different transition mechanisms. > > > > By the way, most of the 464XLAT deployments are done using OpenWRT, > taking advantage of existing CPEs that can be reflashed, because lack of > support from the original vendors. > > > > The survey got already 1.223 responses up to now. I=E2=80=99m providing= here > only the numbers for those that responded with specific details about the > transition technology. There are many other answers with have left this > empty, probably customers that don=E2=80=99t know. In general, more compl= ete > responses come from the ISP employees, which also provide the contact > details, and I talked with them in some cases to clarify specific answers > to the survey. > > > > I did a recent presentation at the last RIPE meeting (not going into so > many detailed data as here) > > Slides - > https://ripe73.ripe.net/presentations/22-IPv6-survey-October-2016.pdf > > Video - https://ripe73.ripe.net/archives/video/1242/ > > > > Survey available here, if you still haven=E2=80=99t answered it or some= thing > changed in your network: > > http://survey.consulintel.es/index.php/175122 > > > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: v6ops en nombre de Tassos Chatzithomaoglou > > > Responder a: > > Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 5 de noviembre de 2016, 8:34 > > Para: "v6ops@ietf.org" > > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements > for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers > > > > Mikael Abrahamsson wrote on 4/11/16 23:58: > >> On Fri, 4 Nov 2016, Sander Steffann wrote: > >> > >>> At least in the Netherlands DS-Lite has been deployed to hundreds of > thousands of users already, and the numbers are still going up. I think > that ISPs did nothing with DS-Lite is a misconception. > >> > >> All the ds.lite I know of are from Cable providers, ie DOCSIS3 > deployments. > >> > >> Do you see ds.lite in any other space, ie non-cable operators? > >> > > We, as a fixed/DSL operator, use DS-Lite on a large percentage of > our subscribers. > > Recently we started adding PCP to the mix. > > > > -- > > Tassos > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.consulintel.es > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the > individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, including attached files, is prohibited. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --089e0112c5101bbe0b0540b9d244 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fyi, 464xlat is in openwrt for folks lo= oking for it in home gateways

https://lwn.net/Articles/657119/

On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 5:36 AM Alejandro D'E= gidio <adegidio@telecentro= .net.ar> wrote:
Dears,
=C2=A0 RFC6877 was released in April 2013 and RFC7084 was released in Novem= ber 2013.
=C2=A0 If RFC6877 doesn't need any update yet, it's ok I think but = since November 2013 until now appeared now definitions like RFC7599 and RFC= 7597 (July 2015).
=C2=A0 In RFC7084 section "4.4. Transition Technologies Support" = is specified 6RD and DS-Lite.
=C2=A0 Do you really think that 6RD "must" be supported in a CPE = of 2016?
=C2=A0 RFC7084 puts 6RD as a Transition Technologies Support and doesn'= t it include 464XLAT, MAP-T, MAP-E?

=C2=A0 On the other hand, in CableModems is not included 464XLAT (CLAT) yet= because vendors don't want to include it. I have talked to Sagemcom, T= echnicolor and Cisco (now Cisco sold CPEs to Technicolor); they don't w= ant implement it because they don't have enough requirements yet (how m= any are enought?) and if I want it I should request it to Broadcom (vendor = of chipset included in all these CMs). Ok, I've talked to Broadcom also= and they neither want to implement it because they say that they have DS-L= ite, for them it works and we don't need any other protocol. I can not = beleive this kind of answer.

=C2=A0 I have included RFC6877 in RFPs for new CMs as a mandatory feature b= ut no one wanted to perform with this feature, so I had to remove it as a m= andatory because if not I wouldn't be able to buy anyone.

=C2=A0 Regarding CGN, as we don't have more public IPv4, we didn't = have any other option than deploy a CGN. For now, customers have Dual Stack= (private IPv4 + IPv6).
=C2=A0 Lets think that with the inclusion of (for example) 464XLAT, ISPs li= ke us won't need to deploy IPv4 (in normal cases).


Regards,

Alejandro D'Egidio
Jefe de Ingenier=C3=ADa de Backbone
[ mailto:adegidio@telecentro.net.ar | adegidio@telece= ntro.net.ar ]

Lavard=C3=A9n 157 | Tel: 54 11 3977 1025
C1437FBC | CABA | Argentina
TELECENTRO S.A.

ESTE MENSAJE ES CONFIDENCIAL. Puede contener informaci=C3=B3n amparada por = el secreto profesional. Si usted ha recibido este e-mail por error, por fav= or comun=C3=ADquenoslo inmediatamente v=C3=ADa e-mail y tenga la amabilidad= de eliminarlo de su sistema; no deber=C3=A1 copiar el mensaje ni divulgar = su contenido a ninguna persona. Muchas gracias.

THIS MESSAGE IS CONFIDENTIAL. It may also contain information that is privi= leged or otherwise legally exempt from disclosure. If you have received it = by mistake please let us know by e-mail immediately and delete it from your= system; should also not copy the message nor disclose its contents to anyo= ne. Many thanks.

----- Mensaje original -----
De: "Fred Baker" <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
Para: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" <jordi.palet@consulintel= .es>
CC: v6ops@ietf.org
Enviados: S=C3=A1bado, 5 de Noviembre 2016 15:59:10
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for= IPv6 Customer Edge Routers

Speaking for myself.

One of the things that I would draw out of your list is that there is no ma= rket consensus. A vendor decides what features to put in a product based no= t on what the standards require, but what customers require. If he can=E2= =80=99t sell more of a product by adding a feature, he has little argument = for adding it. And the vendors see little revenue benefit to adding random = transition technologies.

My personal guess, not based on data, of actual requirements is CGN for IPv= 4 in some form (could be translation to IPv6 or translation to another IPv4= address) plus native IPv6. 464XLAT adds NAT64 at a network boundary, and i= s an ISP issue. =E2=80=9CDual Stack=E2=80=9D was intended to mean that one = could turn IPv4 off or IPv6 off and have full operation either way, but was= running both at the same time. =E2=80=9CDual Stack=E2=80=9D as implemented= usually means that some functionality requires IPv4 but IPv6 data is trans= ported. The rest of what you mention are tunneling technologies in one form= or another, a way to have IPvX be able to work around an IPvY-only domain.= Again, those are usually ISP options - the ISP wants to deliver IPv6 servi= ce to residential customers, perhaps, but has an IPv4-only service between = it and its customer, or the ISP wants to deliver dual stack service to a re= sidential customer but is itself IPv6-only. Vendors will deliver to ISPs wh= at the ISPs require in their RFI/RFQ.

If one can demonstrate a consensus, a standard shouldn=E2=80=99t be difficu= lt to write or argue for. Absent that, I=E2=80=99m not holding my breath.
> On Nov 5, 2016, at 2:54 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.pa= let@consulintel.es> wrote:
>
> I=E2=80=99ve also some trials with DSL customers, thousands of users e= ach trial.
>
> Some of those trials have been running for a couple of years already, = and the reason not to go into commercial is precisely because they will pre= fer to use the same transition mechanism in all the network (they are using= 464XLAT in the cellular trial), but the vendors aren=E2=80=99t supporting = it and one of the arguments is not suggested as a requirement from the IETF= ...
>
> Also looking at the recent IPv6 survey I can see the following stats:<= br class=3D"gmail_msg"> > 1) 5 LTE/router deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, globa= l IPv6).
> 2) 2 LTE/router deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6)= .
> 3) 1 LTE/router deployment with DS-Lite.
> 4) 2 LTE/router deployment with tunnel broker.
> 5) 1 Cable deployment with 464XLAT.
> 6) 2 Cable deployments with 6to4.
> 7) 2 Cable deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv= 6)
> 8) 2 Cable deployments with DS-Lite.
> 9) 42 Cable deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6)
> 10) 1 Cable deployment with lw4o6.
> 11) 1 Cable deployment with MAP-T.
> 12) 2 Cable deployments with tunnel broker.
> 13) 5 FTTH deployments with 464XLAT.
> 14) 2 FTTH deployments with 6RD.
> 15) 8 FTTH deployments with 6to4.
> 16) 7 FTTH deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv= 6).
> 17) 4 FTTH deployments with DS-Lite.
> 18) 93 FTTH deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > 19) 1 FTTH deployment with MAP-E.
> 20) 1 FTTH deployment with tunnel broker.
> 21) 4 xDSL deployments with dual stack - CGN (private IPv4, global IPv= 6).
> 22) 7 xDSL deployments with DS-Lite.
> 23) 71 xDSL deployments with dual stack (public IPv4, global IPv6). > 24) 9 xDSL deployments with 6RD.
> 25) 3 xDSL deployments with 464XLAT.
> 26) 2 xDSL deployments with tunnel broker.
> 27) 1 xDSL deployment using softwires (L2TP).
> 28) 6 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployments with dual stack -= CGN (private IPv4, global IPv6).
> 29) 22 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployments with dual stack = (public IPv4, global IPv6).
> 30) 1 Wireless (LMDS, WiFi, WiMax, etc.) deployment with 464XLAT.
>
> In addition to all that, there are some other access technologies bein= g used, with different transition mechanisms.
>
> By the way, most of the 464XLAT deployments are done using OpenWRT, ta= king advantage of existing CPEs that can be reflashed, because lack of supp= ort from the original vendors.
>
> The survey got already 1.223 responses up to now. I=E2=80=99m providin= g here only the numbers for those that responded with specific details abou= t the transition technology. There are many other answers with have left th= is empty, probably customers that don=E2=80=99t know. In general, more comp= lete responses come from the ISP employees, which also provide the contact = details, and I talked with them in some cases to clarify specific answers t= o the survey.
>
> I did a recent presentation at the last RIPE meeting (not going into s= o many detailed data as here)
> Slides - https://ripe73.ripe.net/presentations/22-IPv6-survey-October-2016.pdf
> Video - https://ripe73.ripe.n= et/archives/video/1242/
>
> Survey available here, if you still haven=E2=80=99t answered it or som= ething changed in your network:
> http://survey.consulintel.es/i= ndex.php/175122
>
>
> Regards,
> Jordi
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
> De: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de Tassos = Chatzithomaoglou <achatz@forthnet.gr>
> Responder a: <achatz@forthnet.gr>
> Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 5 de noviembre de 2016, 8:34
> Para: "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirement= s for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Mikael Abrahamsson wrote on 4/11/16 23:58:
>> On Fri, 4 Nov 2016, Sander Steffann wrote:
>>
>>> At least in the Netherlands DS-Lite has been deployed to hundr= eds of thousands of users already, and the numbers are still going up. I th= ink that ISPs did nothing with DS-Lite is a misconception.
>>
>> All the ds.lite I know of are from Cable providers, ie DOCSIS3 dep= loyments.
>>
>> Do you see ds.lite in any other space, ie non-cable operators?
>>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 We, as a fixed/DSL operator, use DS-Lite=C2=A0 on a large= percentage of our subscribers.
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Recently we started adding PCP to the mix.
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 --
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 Tassos
>
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 _______________________________________________
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 v6ops mailing list
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 v6ops@ietf.org
>=C2=A0 =C2=A0 https://www.ietf.or= g/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.consulintel.es
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged o= r confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the indivi= dual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that an= y disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this informat= ion, including attached files, is prohibited.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
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--089e0112c5101bbe0b0540b9d244-- From nobody Mon Nov 7 11:40:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55069129958 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 11:40:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 57uk3EteiRHH for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 11:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DEE5129646 for ; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 11:40:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049463.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049463.ppops.net-00191d01. 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GAALPA1MSGHUBAG.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.156]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Mon, 7 Nov 2016 14:40:31 -0500 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: "Alejandro D'Egidio" , Fred Baker Thread-Topic: do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers Thread-Index: AQHSOPvtRmbqb6d61EqcRmkQ0R2RZqDNp+FA Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 19:40:31 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA36879@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <581D8B91.4070602@forthnet.gr> <79D538C7-504D-4719-9C67-27EE524E8DB1@consulintel.es> <1977255708.2206967.1478525748858.JavaMail.zimbra@telecentro.net.ar> In-Reply-To: <1977255708.2206967.1478525748858.JavaMail.zimbra@telecentro.net.ar> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.10.247.14] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2016-11-07_08:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1609300000 definitions=main-1611070359 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 19:40:58 -0000 PiAgIEluIFJGQzcwODQgc2VjdGlvbiAiNC40LiBUcmFuc2l0aW9uIFRlY2hub2xvZ2llcyBTdXBw 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ZW0gZGV2ZWxvcG1lbnQuIEkgZG9uJ3QgZXhwZWN0IGl0IHRvIGRyaXZlIHJldGFpbCBkZXZlbG9w bWVudCBlaXRoZXIsIGF0IHRoaXMgcG9pbnQuIE15IGV4cGVjdGF0aW9uIG9mIHRoZSByZXRhaWwg dmVuZG9ycyBpcyB0aGF0IHRoZXknbGwgbG9vayBhdCBsYXJnZSBvcGVyYXRvciBkZXBsb3ltZW50 cyBhbmQgYmFzZSBkZWNpc2lvbnMgb24gdGhhdCBtdWNoIG1vcmUgdGhhbiBvbiBhbiBJRVRGIFJG Qy4NCkJhcmJhcmENCg0K From nobody Sun Nov 13 09:52:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D2FC12955E; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 09:52:13 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.37.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 09:52:13 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 17:52:13 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations of the IETF. Title : Routing-Related Design Choices for IPv6 Networks Authors : Philip Matthews Victor Kuarsingh Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt Pages : 26 Date : 2016-11-13 Abstract: This document presents advice on certain routing-related design choices that arise when designing IPv6 networks (both dual-stack and IPv6-only). The intended audience is someone designing an IPv6 network who is knowledgeable about best current practices around IPv4 network design, and wishes to learn the corresponding practices for IPv6. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sun Nov 13 10:20:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E249A1295AD for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 10:20:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.15 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.15 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_BRBL_LASTEXT=1.449, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tsgz7ktWyrlV for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 10:20:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from tor-smtp-01.primus.ca (smtp-auth-22.primus.ca [67.230.159.22]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C936E1295A6 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 10:20:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from [58.120.104.2] (helo=[192.168.101.242]) by tor-smtp-01.primus.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1c5zOb-0006sz-9I; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:20:50 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1-390349424 From: Philip Matthews In-Reply-To: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 03:20:39 +0900 Message-Id: References: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: v6ops list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-Authenticated: philip_matthews - ([192.168.101.242]) [58.120.104.2] Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 18:20:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail-1-390349424 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Folks: Victor and I spun out this new version to fix a few small things: 1. Change title to "Routing-Related Design Choices for IPv6 Networks". = This title change re-enforces the scope of the document. The abstract = and introduction have said "routing-related" for a while, but a few = readers seem to miss this. This change has been suggested to us a few = times in the past, including by Tim Chown in his review of the document = at the behest of the chairs a year ago. 2. Added pointer to "General Observations" section. In re-reading = Tim's review, we also noticed that he had suggested that we move our = section called "General Observations" to the front of the document. The = "General Observation" section discusses the fact that many design = choices around IPv6 stem from the concepts of link-local addresses and = separation between v4 and v6. Victor and I discussed Tim's suggestion, = but decided we would leave the "General Observation" section where it = was for now, and add a pointer to it in the introduction. Hence we added = the following sentences to the introduction: "Section 2 presents and discusses a number of design choices. Section = 3 discusses some general themes that run through these choices." 3. Fixed the references. There were a number of missing references and = missing xrefs in the -10 and -11 versions. These are now fixed. Comments on these changes are welcome, including during our presentation = this afternoon. -Philip On 2016-11-14, at 2:52 , Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts = directories. > This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations of the IETF. >=20 > Title : Routing-Related Design Choices for IPv6 = Networks > Authors : Philip Matthews > Victor Kuarsingh > Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt > Pages : 26 > Date : 2016-11-13 >=20 > Abstract: > This document presents advice on certain routing-related design > choices that arise when designing IPv6 networks (both dual-stack and > IPv6-only). The intended audience is someone designing an IPv6 > network who is knowledgeable about best current practices around = IPv4 > network design, and wishes to learn the corresponding practices for > IPv6. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices/ >=20 > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of = submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 --Apple-Mail-1-390349424 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii

2.  Added pointer to "General = Observations" section.  In re-reading Tim's review, we also noticed = that he had suggested that we move our section called "General = Observations" to the front of the document. The "General Observation" = section discusses the fact that many design choices around IPv6 stem = from the concepts of link-local addresses and separation between v4 and = v6. Victor and I discussed Tim's suggestion, but decided we would leave = the "General Observation" section where it was for now, and add a = pointer to it in the introduction. Hence we added the following = sentences to the introduction:
   "Section 2 presents and discusses a number of design choices. = Section 3 discusses some general themes that run = through these

3. Fixed the references. = There were a number of missing references and missing xrefs in the -10 = and -11 versions.  These are now = fixed.

Comments on these changes are welcome, = including during our presentation this = afternoon.

-Philip


<= div>On 2016-11-14, at 2:52 , Internet-Drafts@ietf.org = wrote:


A New Internet-Draft is available from the = on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the = IPv6 Operations of the IETF.

=        Title =           : = Routing-Related Design Choices for IPv6 Networks
=        Authors =         : Philip Matthews
=             &n= bsp;           &nbs= p;Victor Kuarsingh
Filename =        : = draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt
Pages =           : = 26
= Date =            : = 2016-11-13

Abstract:
  This document presents = advice on certain routing-related design
  choices that = arise when designing IPv6 networks (both dual-stack and
=   IPv6-only).  The intended audience is someone designing = an IPv6
  network who is knowledgeable about best current = practices around IPv4
  network design, and wishes to = learn the corresponding practices for
=   IPv6.


The IETF datatracker status page for this = draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices/
=
There's also a htmlized version available = at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12
<= br>A diff from the previous version is available = at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices= -12


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the = time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available = at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by = anonymous FTP = at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

________________________= _______________________
v6ops mailing = list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
<= br>

= --Apple-Mail-1-390349424-- From nobody Sun Nov 13 16:34:38 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 173061295E4 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 16:34:37 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_40=-0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GQ6aVZpvWsgs for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 16:34:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from atl4mhob14.myregisteredsite.com (atl4mhob14.myregisteredsite.com [209.17.115.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7DA912952F for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 16:34:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com ([10.30.71.211]) by atl4mhob14.myregisteredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id uAE0YY15001360 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:34:34 -0500 Received: (qmail 14891 invoked by uid 0); 14 Nov 2016 00:34:34 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 31.133.136.4 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?31.133.136.4?) (lee@asgard.org@31.133.136.4) by 0 with ESMTPA; 14 Nov 2016 00:34:33 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.9.160926 Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:34:32 -0500 From: Lee Howard To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Looking for jabber scribe and note takers Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3561910476_4568332" Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Looking for jabber scribe and note takers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 00:34:37 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3561910476_4568332 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Asking for volunteers now to save time this afternoon. Lee --B_3561910476_4568332 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Asking for volunteers now to = save time this afternoon.

Lee
--B_3561910476_4568332-- From nobody Sun Nov 13 16:42:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18753129698 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 16:42:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y9hdk-UOXs4y for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 16:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from atl4mhob14.myregisteredsite.com (atl4mhob14.myregisteredsite.com [209.17.115.52]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACBB3129648 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 16:42:20 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com ([10.30.71.210]) by atl4mhob14.myregisteredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id uAE0gIQe009070 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:42:18 -0500 Received: (qmail 16709 invoked by uid 0); 14 Nov 2016 00:42:18 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 31.133.136.4 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?31.133.136.4?) (lee@asgard.org@31.133.136.4) by 0 with ESMTPA; 14 Nov 2016 00:42:18 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.6.9.160926 Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:42:17 -0500 From: Lee Howard To: "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: meeting materials Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3561910940_4599128" Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] meeting materials X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 00:42:22 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3561910940_4599128 Content-type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Slides are available here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/97/materials More will be available as speakers send them to me. Tools are not working for us in several cases: The Materials link from the datatracker agenda does not include slides (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/97/materials). The tools Agenda does not include our agenda (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/agenda) Opening tickets, but wanted to make sure the WG had access to the known workarounds. Lee --B_3561910940_4599128 Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Slides are available here:&nb= sp;https://datat= racker.ietf.org/meeting/97/materials
More will be available as= speakers send them to me.

Tools are not working fo= r us in several cases:
The Materials link from the datatracker age= nda does not include slides (https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/97/materials). 
The tools Agenda does not include our agenda (https://tools.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/agenda)

Opening tickets, but wanted to make sure the WG had acc= ess to the known workarounds.

Lee

--B_3561910940_4599128-- From nobody Sun Nov 13 17:14:14 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FCC3129649 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 17:14:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -101.922 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-101.922 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_WHITELIST=-100] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HkNpA5aZF9v2 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 17:14:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM01-BY2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-by2nam01on0091.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.34.91]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C0C21295F0 for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2051; H:BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Nov 2016 01:14:09.9290 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0501MB2051 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices: Addressing X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 01:14:12 -0000 Authors, Would your conclusions in Section 2.1 be different if the following were wi= dely deployed: - RFC 5837 - draft-bonica-intarea-eping Ron /speaking as individual contributor /shamelessly promoting his other work ;-) From nobody Sun Nov 13 17:21:21 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE2E31295E5 for ; 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[163.47.221.169]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a66sm31104543pfa.64.2016.11.13.20.12.59 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 13 Nov 2016 20:13:00 -0800 (PST) To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <283B39A2-3AB1-4DD0-B3C0-8606C7A9E049@jisc.ac.uk> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 17:12:57 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <283B39A2-3AB1-4DD0-B3C0-8606C7A9E049@jisc.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 04:13:03 -0000 On 14/11/2016 17:03, Tim Chown wrote: > Hi, >=20 > This document is now looking pretty good, given the latest discussions = and updates, and with the explicit routing focus. >=20 > I really like the style of presenting pros and cons in the way that you= have; it reads very well. >=20 > A few comments: >=20 > - There=E2=80=99s still a reference to the Experimental NPTv6 RFC 6296.= I guess this may remain contentious :) Yes. It's like telling people it's a bad idea to stuff beans up their nos= es, followed by instructions on how to do it. > - The document excludes IPv6 over MPLS in the intro, then seems to disc= uss it in 2.1.2? >=20 > - IPv6 PI is getting easier to get - see https://www.ripe.net/publicati= ons/docs/ripe-655#IPv6_PI_Assignments for RIPE region. Maybe. But we know this is never going to happen for tens of millions of = small businesses, so I think the alternatives have to be presented as neutrally= as possible. Brian > You might also want to do a quick sweep of the recently published https= ://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-00 to check for consistency= =2E >=20 > If you=E2=80=99re interested in checking out how the biggest v6 deploym= ent of any UK university is done, which includes routing notes, see http:= //www.ipv6.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/UKIPv6Council-2016-IPv6-depl= oyment-at-Imperial.pdf. >=20 > Best wishes, > Tim >=20 > On 13 Nov 2016, at 18:20, Philip Matthews > wrote: >=20 > Folks: >=20 > Victor and I spun out this new version to fix a few small things: >=20 > 1. Change title to "Routing-Related Design Choices for IPv6 Networks".= This title change re-enforces the scope of the document. The abstract a= nd introduction have said "routing-related" for a while, but a few reader= s seem to miss this. This change has been suggested to us a few times in= the past, including by Tim Chown in his review of the document at the be= hest of the chairs a year ago. >=20 > 2. Added pointer to "General Observations" section. In re-reading Tim= 's review, we also noticed that he had suggested that we move our section= called "General Observations" to the front of the document. The "General= Observation" section discusses the fact that many design choices around = IPv6 stem from the concepts of link-local addresses and separation betwee= n v4 and v6. Victor and I discussed Tim's suggestion, but decided we woul= d leave the "General Observation" section where it was for now, and add a= pointer to it in the introduction. Hence we added the following sentence= s to the introduction: > "Section 2 presents and discusses a number of design choices. Sectio= n 3 discusses some general themes that run through these choices." >=20 > 3. Fixed the references. There were a number of missing references and = missing xrefs in the -10 and -11 versions. These are now fixed. >=20 > Comments on these changes are welcome, including during our presentatio= n this afternoon. >=20 > -Philip >=20 >=20 > On 2016-11-14, at 2:52 , Internet-Drafts@ietf.org wrote: >=20 >=20 > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire= ctories. > This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations of the IETF. >=20 > Title : Routing-Related Design Choices for IPv6 Networ= ks > Authors : Philip Matthews > Victor Kuarsingh > Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt > Pages : 26 > Date : 2016-11-13 >=20 > Abstract: > This document presents advice on certain routing-related design > choices that arise when designing IPv6 networks (both dual-stack and > IPv6-only). The intended audience is someone designing an IPv6 > network who is knowledgeable about best current practices around IPv4= > network design, and wishes to learn the corresponding practices for > IPv6. >=20 >=20 > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices/ >=20 > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12 >=20 > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12 >=20 >=20 > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi= ssion > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. >=20 > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 From nobody Sun Nov 13 20:44:23 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 386001295AB for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 20:44:22 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.111 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.111 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been 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[127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w8OthckAaNgK for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:01:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-x231.google.com (mail-it0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01AE01295F6 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:01:08 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-x231.google.com with SMTP id b123so10144015itb.0 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:01:08 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=LFLvgax4/I6GQl2kiHLG68DCqbp3e79LA8rLCyrOyBo=; b=MUKwJzXUR254nXCYzqaIGqCduxpXSxlnkOzgKFdYBrbhAUhtAQG1X1iOqp6RZslV0L 6B9bTIx7ByNsOQ+PuTlLVMwHG87rSK48UPH3WJ2Jye/uRFzPQoi0B+4hu2GUpK/sM248 YFwvzAE+NBijoh52S+iNAcg4G11NDbxLJ07xAha+siwHJ2PIY9bfUy9uISmMhuyXvSxP 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HTTP; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:00:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <283B39A2-3AB1-4DD0-B3C0-8606C7A9E049@jisc.ac.uk> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 14:00:43 +0900 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114f85ea4f472205413bba79 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:01:10 -0000 --001a114f85ea4f472205413bba79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > > - There=E2=80=99s still a reference to the Experimental NPTv6 RFC 6296.= I guess > this may remain contentious :) > > Yes. It's like telling people it's a bad idea to stuff beans up their > noses, > followed by instructions on how to do it. > +1. I'd prefer to remove this citation. > > - IPv6 PI is getting easier to get - see https://www.ripe.net/ > publications/docs/ripe-655#IPv6_PI_Assignments for RIPE region. > > Maybe. But we know this is never going to happen for tens of millions of > small > businesses, so I think the alternatives have to be presented as neutrally > as > possible. > Host addressing is out of scope for this draft, so it doesn't matter so much, but if we're talking about multihoming we should note that the best approach for smaller networks is multihoming using PA addresses via source+destination based routing. That is is being pursued in the homenet and routing working groups. --001a114f85ea4f472205413bba79 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On M= on, Nov 14, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpente= r@gmail.com> wrote:
> - There=E2=80=99s still a reference to the Experimental NPTv= 6 RFC 6296. I guess this may remain contentious :)

Yes. It's like telling people it's a bad idea to stuff beans= up their noses,
followed by instructions on how to do it.

+1. I'd prefer to remove this citation.
=C2=A0
> - IPv6 PI is getting easier = to get - see https://www.ripe.net= /publications/docs/ripe-655#IPv6_PI_Assignments for RIPE regi= on.

Maybe. But we know this is never going to happen for tens of million= s of small
businesses, so I think the alternatives have to be presented as neutrally a= s
possible.

Host addressing is out of sco= pe for this draft, so it doesn't matter so much, but if we're talki= ng about multihoming we should note that the best approach for smaller netw= orks is multihoming using PA addresses via source+destination based routing= . That is is being pursued in the homenet and routing working groups.
=
--001a114f85ea4f472205413bba79-- From nobody Sun Nov 13 21:06:24 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 293CB129634 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:06:21 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nf9V_SUmp6At for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:06:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from vaadcmhout02.cable.comcast.com (vaadcmhout02.cable.comcast.com [96.114.28.76]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A09B129690 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:06:12 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 60721c4c-d67ff7000000666c-b5-5829464131d9 Received: from VAADCEX16.cable.comcast.com (vaadcmhoutvip.cable.comcast.com [96.115.73.56]) (using TLS with cipher AES256-SHA256 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by (SMTP Gateway) with SMTP id 8F.31.26220.14649285; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 00:06:11 -0500 (EST) Received: from VAADCEX09.cable.comcast.com (147.191.102.76) by VAADCEX16.cable.comcast.com (147.191.102.83) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1130.7; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 00:06:08 -0500 Received: from VAADCEX09.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe12:e2a0]) by VAADCEX09.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe12:e2a0%19]) with mapi id 15.00.1130.005; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 00:06:08 -0500 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: Tim Chown , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 Thread-Index: AQHSPjTPzWI1eACr0E2MJMiM0juRyA== Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:06:08 +0000 Message-ID: <949D6F3E-0D47-4305-9A27-7C275A4DA7F4@cable.comcast.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [96.115.73.252] Content-Type: text/plain; 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d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1479100151; x=1479704951; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=g3n/GTR9dNdyGMODvCOwpxFKNbYwYGLL4vP9Hxn6L+U=; b=ECDtfRgybGQ9d GDKGNxL0TlsoPAdGwxnpg7CKk4YBjm2Ul1tKUp8uWJlceEb96qDo6kl1+2+Lfjw4 0FSP+8TzlX9cBZRNeJymz/cXQxPaspeEtnLtv+ceG5nj5mUkwGtOEO86PrheGCpv QAFHS73RflqvdIQMhIvHPBfKePdgKQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=NwePS0BWgAaV5f3SWA3Kz3gcz47uVAtJDbyXyNfduY+xg3r8A3AbQQqzab4J Bs9PlFtIEzn4li0Zqoy3nVgjkCTOaKDWWEhECAm5X4fnYk6BGQ9y1LSYT aqF2QtwUfUYawQ8eRHNwiV8QO4XgI7vskMO6DLM4d9V1lMcchqM43o=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:09:10 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:09:09 +0100 Received: from [31.133.140.36] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005221342.msg for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:09:07 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:161114:md50005221342::7jP3ojoKRH2mI8GR:00002KxX X-MDRemoteIP: 31.133.140.36 X-Return-Path: prvs=1126ee3e52=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 14:08:54 +0900 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: v6ops list Message-ID: <34B9CA17-15C4-45A1-84A0-4087719875CE@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:09:17 -0000 I think this can be also useful in data-centre scenarios (hosting/housing, = etc.). It will be nice to include some text (abstract, intro, may be somewhere els= e) to made it clear that scenario. I=E2=80=99m happy to write down some specific changes if you like. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Tim Chown Responder a: Fecha: lunes, 14 de noviembre de 2016, 13:44 Para: v6ops list Asunto: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 Hi, =20 I like the draft.=20 =20 Some generally very minor comments: =20 - Move the =E2=80=98Benefits..=E2=80=99 sentence to the end of the abst= ract. =20 - "at current time there is a non-trivial UE/subscriber base not suppor= ting DHCPv6 IA_NA=E2=80=9D - well, there=E2=80=99s another way to fix that,= but=E2=80=A6 :) =20 =20 - s/his/their =20 - In section 4 you say the UE SHOULD NOT perform stateful DHCP. What h= appens if it does? (draft-ietf-v6ops-dhcpv6-slaac-problem-07 discusses such= issues) =20 - RFC 6343, 6180, 6106 and I-D.ietf-v6ops-v4v6tran-framework are in the= references, but not the text. =20 Best wishes, Tim=20 =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Sun Nov 13 21:09:59 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31A26129634 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:09:58 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oGAxM6epsPyc for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:09:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-x232.google.com (mail-it0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33FE91295C2 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:09:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-x232.google.com with SMTP id q124so83096569itd.1 for ; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:09:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0hx3bVB4p+8PtXQlZHsxFYB1kFx5w70qAEXXQxHhHuM=; b=AvzErGMvGAGZ14vvQjBL+LO03nnyDNc29Z30LwEZ5ewesR6EWZRIfulf7bvsp7A41f AITLVNw4zIlomK0n9vSDDz8ha0tWFsH71EwI28sgeZrgwcaGgxlTMTQf1y8Ua6M4lI+b bsfJHadLEDP8PLEtSIIcqYAJXUQ3tzg3NKK9w9whJ279VEECpByyvwBU6j/DJFDWRHkM NdshHrdZO6KkZKrwwVgCZp762VkbC0FqAQBAILdI6KF/+NVj8KAsHU1rtSV395it+2PY 7CnVFjifIE7i6PnPUqXUeC8OIeKTyTOxXzXf0IWOMQ/7dMCmCVIRVzQGjDw+AgG/NL1G rsoA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0hx3bVB4p+8PtXQlZHsxFYB1kFx5w70qAEXXQxHhHuM=; b=MlckidqF/FcG2zG6cxuUQKt/wBmVaRnNClw86fxlRTls41If0YctZGaEBEbhIW0VjV QVimwGvtP/PIY7f6l6lhDvIs1SK6xysK4FX2sgBwt3wbSxwyfULWZWrNQOwuLg7clwT4 F+pVnEsMden3MAY62NPGvsWBPbq7lr89Kog/UvtphhYw2koVVCF+uf28cfmpIGm3nlKe LcVmwY3wg+ZvKDPeD6hL6c7FrA8rEnnA6SvGtPAXxelYZQvn+xJI2jF7PrQ1ulbw68k/ LQthgjwrb4ahNCH5s5AK3BwFA0Hcbkhz3iPPqqvK8cILh84wAhmKmIiCvSuta8Br6Amf 4S6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvfwXlIFvSdoEOSacgtOQj4YGln9FL/pwRrzAIwpxK8yTcp9CAq+Q8CKLf1Hn+UjxJhstPStSwIFrFU1gJ9m X-Received: by 10.36.190.6 with SMTP id i6mr73738itf.37.1479100196073; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:09:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.64.102.37 with HTTP; Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:09:35 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <49639B45-8C07-449D-BAD2-A5ED07CE58FB@jisc.ac.uk> References: <49639B45-8C07-449D-BAD2-A5ED07CE58FB@jisc.ac.uk> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 14:09:35 +0900 Message-ID: To: Tim Chown Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c19d4eac69bf705413bd97c Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:09:58 -0000 --94eb2c19d4eac69bf705413bd97c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Tim Chown wrote: > - "at current time there is a non-trivial UE/subscriber base not > supporting DHCPv6 IA_NA=E2=80=9D - well, there=E2=80=99s another way to f= ix that, but=E2=80=A6 :) > Actually, the thing to say here is that an IA_NA-only network is not recommended per RFC 7934 section 8. --94eb2c19d4eac69bf705413bd97c Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On M= on, Nov 14, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Tim Chown <Tim.Chown@jisc.ac.uk> wrote:
- "at current time there= is a non-trivial UE/subscriber base not supporting DHCPv6 IA_NA=E2=80=9D -= well, there=E2=80=99s another way to fix that, but=E2=80=A6 :)

Actually, the thing to say here is that an IA_NA-o= nly network is not recommended per RFC 7934 section 8.
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X-Spam-Score: -3.397 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yagaWUFJ94r3 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 03:53:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from vaadcmhout01.cable.comcast.com (vaadcmhout01.cable.comcast.com [96.114.28.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D76412945D for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 03:53:17 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 60721c4b-20bff700000045be-f4-5829a5ab79d8 Received: from VAADCEX11.cable.comcast.com (vaadcmhoutvip.cable.comcast.com [96.115.73.56]) (using TLS with cipher AES256-SHA256 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by (SMTP Gateway) with SMTP id D7.B0.17854.BA5A9285; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:53:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from VAADCEX09.cable.comcast.com (147.191.102.76) by VAADCEX11.cable.comcast.com (147.191.102.78) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1130.7; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:53:14 -0500 Received: from VAADCEX09.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe12:e2a0]) by VAADCEX09.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe12:e2a0%19]) with mapi id 15.00.1130.005; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 06:53:14 -0500 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: Tim Chown Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 Thread-Index: AQHSPjTPzWI1eACr0E2MJMiM0juRyA== Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 11:53:14 +0000 Message-ID: <40D7B744-6FAC-4AF3-B3C6-DD45441EB7FD@cable.comcast.com> References: <949D6F3E-0D47-4305-9A27-7C275A4DA7F4@cable.comcast.com> <7A952355-3CE9-4BCA-9F3D-29CFD5ACAC1D@jisc.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <7A952355-3CE9-4BCA-9F3D-29CFD5ACAC1D@jisc.ac.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 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b=t2uE1zuhYythiGUB/CeCXCNroRm1whP3/gvymVKHgsllIizsC96Buf9uIPas triROWu46Lu8SxNJIAoMfaInWb9AtTdms8tBp7fF/fI5E01Dpk6EUHtFT 8qLT+Wl0qKvgCPakN/SLvT8llVVMcyIJ8EXryUfVBVd8k9UE9sYPH0=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:51:05 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:51:01 +0100 Received: from [31.133.148.170] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005222213.msg for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:50:59 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:161114:md50005222213::gTB6fjhfjpzzYn1V:00000bxz X-MDRemoteIP: 31.133.148.170 X-Return-Path: prvs=1126ee3e52=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 21:50:49 +0900 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: v6ops list Message-ID: <2DAE62A1-659D-43AF-B39C-6C59275A9E5F@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 References: <34B9CA17-15C4-45A1-84A0-4087719875CE@consulintel.es> <98D27065-4242-41EB-BA2B-752E1ACADDDE@cable.comcast.com> In-Reply-To: <98D27065-4242-41EB-BA2B-752E1ACADDDE@cable.comcast.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 12:51:12 -0000 Ok, trying not to change too much, minimalistic approach just to note that = the same procedure works for a data centre: 1. Abstract Replace =E2=80=9Cshared network, like Wi-Fi or Ethernet=E2=80=9D with =E2= =80=9Cshared network, either wired or wireless, such as Ethernet, WiFi, etc= .=E2=80=9D 2. Introduction. After the 1st paragraph, add a new one short one to clarify what UE means h= ere. In the context of this document, UE can be a =E2=80=9Cregular=E2=80=9D end= -user-equipment, as well as a server in a datacentre, assuming a shared net= work (wired or wireless). 3. Section 5 (IPv6 Neighbourship Discovery Best Practices), I believe the a= ctual text =E2=80=9Cthe applicable MaxRtrAdvInterval on the WLAN-GW MUST th= erefore be lower than the preferred lifetime=E2=80=9D, WLAN-GW is referring= to the first hop router, maybe from a previous text considering only WiFi?= If that=E2=80=99s the case, then I will suggest this alternative: =E2=80=9Cthe applicable MaxRtrAdvInterval on the first hop router MUST ther= efore be lower than the preferred lifetime=E2=80=9D 4. Section 5 (IPv6 Neighbourship Discovery Best Practices), =E2=80=9C =E2= =80=A6 removed from the First Hop Router to avoid ongoing resource depletio= n=E2=80=9D, replace with =E2=80=9C=E2=80=A6 removed from the First Hop Rout= er to avoid ongoing resource depletion in the case of non-permanent UE, suc= h as in the case of WiFi hotspots=E2=80=9D. 5. Section 5 (IPv6 Neighbourship Discovery Best Practices), after =E2=80=9C= temporary 'private' addresses.=E2=80=9D, add this sentence: =E2=80=9CSimilarly, when using this technology in a datacentre, the UE serv= er may need to use several addresses from the same /64, for example because= is using multiple virtual hosts, containers, etc. in the bridged virtual s= witch.=E2=80=9D =E2=80=A6 then keep going with existing text =E2=80=9CThis = can lead to =E2=80=A6=E2=80=9D 6. Section 5 (IPv6 Neighbourship Discovery Best Practices), type =E2=80=A6 = =E2=80=9DThe First Hop Provder=E2=80=9D replace with =E2=80=9CThe First Hop= Provider=E2=80=9D. Also note the duplicated reference to RFC4941 before th= is text. Note that 1, 3 and 6, are also an input to the actual text, even in the cas= e you don=E2=80=99t want to consider the data centre thing, just to make su= re to clarify that is valid in other shared technologies and not just in Wi= Fi or Ethernet =E2=80=A6 Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: "Brzozowski, John" Responder a: Fecha: lunes, 14 de noviembre de 2016, 20:40 Para: "jordi.palet@consulintel.es" , v6ops list= Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-hos= t-01 Jordi, =20 I would be willing to consider this, so please feel free to send some t= ext for us to consider. However, in the spirit keeping things based on rea= lity I hesitate to go too far down the DC path, mainly because this has not= deployed in this context to date. So I propose we limited, high-level ref= erences to other possible deployment uses cases. In the future we may very= well be able to point to other I-Ds like the one below: =20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit-01 =20 Thanks for the review and the offer to write some text. =20 John +1-484-962-0060 =20 -----Original Message----- From: v6ops on behalf of JORDI MARTINEZ Reply-To: JORDI MARTINEZ Date: Monday, November 14, 2016 at 14:08 To: v6ops Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-pe= r-host-01 =20 I think this can be also useful in data-centre scenarios (hosting/h= ousing, etc.). =20 It will be nice to include some text (abstract, intro, may be somew= here else) to made it clear that scenario. =20 I=E2=80=99m happy to write down some specific changes if you like. =20 Regards, Jordi =20 =20 -----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Tim Chown Responder a: Fecha: lunes, 14 de noviembre de 2016, 13:44 Para: v6ops list Asunto: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per= -host-01 =20 Hi, =20 I like the draft.=20 =20 Some generally very minor comments: =20 - Move the =E2=80=98Benefits..=E2=80=99 sentence to the end of = the abstract. =20 - "at current time there is a non-trivial UE/subscriber base no= t supporting DHCPv6 IA_NA=E2=80=9D - well, there=E2=80=99s another way to f= ix that, but=E2=80=A6 :) =20 =20 - s/his/their =20 - In section 4 you say the UE SHOULD NOT perform stateful DHCP.= What happens if it does? (draft-ietf-v6ops-dhcpv6-slaac-problem-07 discus= ses such issues) =20 - RFC 6343, 6180, 6106 and I-D.ietf-v6ops-v4v6tran-framework ar= e in the references, but not the text. =20 Best wishes, Tim=20 =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 =20 =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company =20 This electronic message contains information which may be privilege= d or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the ind= ividual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that= any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this infor= mation, including attached files, is prohibited. =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Mon Nov 14 05:36:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0FA671296F6 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:36:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lL5SZkAnvxdZ for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x236.google.com (mail-yw0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 934571296F5 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:36:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x236.google.com with SMTP id i145so58162374ywg.2 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:36:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Ec26thOmOVY3gqKL1diFJGJxFbK5z5LYNHYLweU43e0=; b=Xl9hZOi4PHRvGWJ0+2lyT+h37Ke2Uz6wYDT71gfq3Eo+AJwmNIhMr8iUqtSXfydjdB IDBvPp5hXV0rqvzck5HunJC80sUh/lACEP9OtoCimyaFXe/t6Dd1DwAzdGAPgP5Zfucd 3dR1XqegI6LjGJHPOR9YvhIZWdEGDuzGdjyxcWxMhWyHZQlEnfGz0c6abpkzIlII4ee3 PH2oKBPtsmgycAGRr/EsVj7nrgGpVWCBKUSC8A9UMkIT2KY5PQs1bAMTwSNhXWnzXyCG /uAHA74uSwsDhqrJylSKJLd1UykZzwbdQrnTHjU32j20Xod0+Biwlo+z53uKgFh0JhQ9 71lQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Ec26thOmOVY3gqKL1diFJGJxFbK5z5LYNHYLweU43e0=; b=Me2+lKy2n/xyDKDuHPH+fvBQAS1FA+aWc7J3vqtlTlArHtrqGnZ759bFMJm3p6CCU8 CfFVGMklqzvcLJnkhN7ySpm/VEC+S9OsPyZ+50SlTXOwSgAcCaDZRsfct/YgXwWMtAH6 R/ahwu38iPOivJ5l/rQ1J782C9innYKprOjZAxqvTYKBZOy05kx45Wq0tX+dwx9MoU37 uuGnrCom/BZFiMTpxVKsqjIweQIrjMmJFCnSvNfpZgQ4sJNDIDabqGPwjmYXfAzsAWuq kqw+Y7p+SDrDXS+X1ePcDvtgqU7siDul0NxtUogG4hsLUk+Z41xgmpC/dmmjAjss2BPi w4bA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvcMRo18xNutzIL9e8pUNVwtWrz0wPWerPI/v2UM5/Aopo1U418Y2ej1YdHIrIPLOdB2sYehTvk/ectpKg== X-Received: by 10.202.213.138 with SMTP id m132mr8343090oig.104.1479130584837; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:36:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.15.33 with HTTP; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:36:24 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2DAE62A1-659D-43AF-B39C-6C59275A9E5F@consulintel.es> References: <34B9CA17-15C4-45A1-84A0-4087719875CE@consulintel.es> <98D27065-4242-41EB-BA2B-752E1ACADDDE@cable.comcast.com> <2DAE62A1-659D-43AF-B39C-6C59275A9E5F@consulintel.es> From: Hemant Singh Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 08:36:24 -0500 Message-ID: To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113b005c15f9fd054142edc1 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 13:36:27 -0000 --001a113b005c15f9fd054142edc1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 7:50 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ < jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote: > > >Note that 1, 3 and 6, are also an input to the actual text, even in the > case you don=E2=80=99t want to consider the data centre thing, just to ma= ke sure to > clarify that is valid in other shared technologies and not >just in WiFi = or > Ethernet =E2=80=A6 > > > I hear John as considering Comcast Xfinity wifi for the document. I agre= e to clarify that the document covers only such a specific wifi network. We should not add the kitchen sink to the document. After all, even cable broadband and cellular wireless use a shared medium, it's not just the data center, Where do we stop? Hemant --001a113b005c15f9fd054142edc1 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 7:50 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.= palet@consulintel.es> wrote:

I hear John as considering Comcast Xfinity wifi for the document.=C2=A0 = I agree to clarify that the document covers only such a specific wifi netwo= rk.=C2=A0 We should not add the kitchen sink to the document.=C2=A0 After a= ll, even cable broadband and cellular wireless use a shared medium, it'= s not just the data center, =C2=A0Where do we stop?

Hemant

--001a113b005c15f9fd054142edc1-- From nobody Mon Nov 14 08:00:55 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D619B129574 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 08:00:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (body has been altered)" header.d=jisc365.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SBf0Fa4IgSDg for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 08:00:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from eu-smtp-delivery-189.mimecast.com (eu-smtp-delivery-189.mimecast.com [207.82.80.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9AB5F12953F for ; 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Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:00:35 +0000 From: Tim Chown To: Hemant Singh , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 Thread-Index: AQHSPjVTJPrjxjsDw0yCIWe+kiIQrqDYW0KAgAATxoCAAAy8AIAAKEgA Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:00:35 +0000 Message-ID: <28A5000C-20A3-4912-A449-4D24B8AF0B3C@jisc.ac.uk> References: <34B9CA17-15C4-45A1-84A0-4087719875CE@consulintel.es> <98D27065-4242-41EB-BA2B-752E1ACADDDE@cable.comcast.com> <2DAE62A1-659D-43AF-B39C-6C59275A9E5F@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [2001:67c:370:144:a99c:368a:c149:4e5b] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM3PR07MB1137; 7:92G0vXN7pAR4QWZB6jzDfY8sLrWPGNLsAO36c29WSXmybdRyAXpqBdKMksvTMuaHA3x/zRCB9FfgJZY5KxPfG6kZjwvclBTb4XxFwHsvigXVK9qPTHoNvJUkH65t0nZtRyW/Qa5+7HDXIzAx0TlHR487+2+F+3y2oB6xAHs5JLn9wMOtdjIx+bddqkbyQ1t9u9o4OTpgkeVwB1adk72bjR6HEAe3cF6pjYHEqA9dcoAaspKBhqwSaJmKpzxvUKWlwVqZNMYyiZfUvDVh1gR9rxMayuX8/TR/zXg0AQy3bLYuk6dflkBPLMiWDHcprDL5Ynb4qwimrdJmhLH4dxUomM8Kh8W1I86BEyS2A9KGOQ0=; 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Mon, 14 Nov 2016 20:17:00 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:161114:md50005223026::5to0DIE4pSAzODqm:00002g/f X-MDRemoteIP: 31.133.148.170 X-Return-Path: prvs=1126ee3e52=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 04:16:54 +0900 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: v6ops list Message-ID: <02BF745D-29C6-4ACB-8DB2-81A3AF9D3D8F@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 References: <34B9CA17-15C4-45A1-84A0-4087719875CE@consulintel.es> <98D27065-4242-41EB-BA2B-752E1ACADDDE@cable.comcast.com> <2DAE62A1-659D-43AF-B39C-6C59275A9E5F@consulintel.es> <28A5000C-20A3-4912-A449-4D24B8AF0B3C@jisc.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <28A5000C-20A3-4912-A449-4D24B8AF0B3C@jisc.ac.uk> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 19:17:09 -0000 Responding to both Hemant and Tim =E2=80=A6 I will agree with what you say if what I=E2=80=99m suggesting requires many= changes in the actual text, but is not the case. They are minor clarificat= ions that accommodates something with clearly happens in both scenarios. At= the end the existing document already mentions Ethernet, so, we are not br= oadening the original scope, just making it more explicit. I think we need to balance (and not just for this document), when we can ap= ply something with minor wording to two well defined cases, among having ju= st one document instead of having to different documents, saying the same, = one for the WiFi case, one for the shared Ethernet. It doesn=E2=80=99t make any sense for the IETF to have =E2=80=9Cmore=E2=80= =9D documents in those cases. What we do afterwards, make a copy of the doc= ument and replace WiFi with Ethernet, so we ask the possible targets of thi= s work to read the same document twice? By the way, I also understood from John, that a specific document with the = WiFi roll-out will follow =E2=80=A6 So more specific details about that wil= l be there. Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: Tim Chown Responder a: Fecha: martes, 15 de noviembre de 2016, 1:00 Para: Hemant Singh , v6ops list CC: Jordi Palet Martinez Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-hos= t-01 =20 On 14 Nov 2016, at 13:36, Hemant Singh wrote: =20 =20 =20 On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 7:50 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ=20 wrote: =20 =20 >Note that 1, 3 and 6, are also an input to the actual text, even in th= e case you don=E2=80=99t want to consider the data centre thing, just to ma= ke sure to clarify that is valid in other shared technologies and not >just= in WiFi or Ethernet =E2=80=A6 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 I hear John as considering Comcast Xfinity wifi for the document. I ag= ree to clarify that the document covers only such a specific wifi network. = We should not add the kitchen sink to the document. After all, even cable= broadband and cellular wireless use a shared medium, it's not just the data center, Where do= we stop? =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 I agree here. I think it=E2=80=99s best to be as specific as possible i= n the document and put it out there as a BCP. Hence my earlier suggestion = to tighten up the abstract to be more specific (that RA-based prefix config= uration is used, etc). Nothing then precludes DHCP-PD being used elsewhere or in the future. =20 =20 Overall the draft is great - it describes an innovative deployment well= . It just needs some editorial polish and it=E2=80=99s good to go.=20 =20 =20 Tim =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Mon Nov 14 17:47:50 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 84F4212965C for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 17:47:48 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4zGdKiXRxpiy for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 17:47:46 -0800 (PST) Received: from vaadcmhout01.cable.comcast.com (vaadcmhout01.cable.comcast.com [96.114.28.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80CC3129467 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 17:47:46 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 60721c4b-20bff700000045be-7d-582a693f4f19 Received: from VAADCEX16.cable.comcast.com (vaadcmhoutvip.cable.comcast.com [96.115.73.56]) (using TLS with cipher AES256-SHA256 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by (SMTP Gateway) with SMTP id 49.62.17854.F396A285; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 20:47:45 -0500 (EST) Received: from VAADCEX09.cable.comcast.com (147.191.102.76) by VAADCEX16.cable.comcast.com (147.191.102.83) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1130.7; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 20:47:42 -0500 Received: from VAADCEX09.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe12:e2a0]) by VAADCEX09.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe12:e2a0%19]) with mapi id 15.00.1130.005; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 20:47:42 -0500 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: "jordi.palet@consulintel.es" , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 Thread-Index: AQHSPmvWzWI1eACr0E2MJMiM0juRyKDYwmyAgACFPgA= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 01:47:42 +0000 Message-ID: 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cmUgdGhhdCBhbnkgZGlzY2xvc3VyZSwgY29weWluZywgZGlzdHJpYnV0aW9uIG9yIHVzZSBvZiB0 aGUgY29udGVudHMgb2YgdGhpcyBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiwgaW5jbHVkaW5nIGF0dGFjaGVkIGZpbGVz LCBpcyBwcm9oaWJpdGVkLg0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KICAgIA0KICAgIF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQogICAgdjZvcHMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQog ICAgdjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCiAgICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp bmZvL3Y2b3BzDQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Mon Nov 14 20:45:31 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59EB2129645 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 20:45:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost 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([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe12:e2a0]) by VAADCEX09.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe12:e2a0%19]) with mapi id 15.00.1130.005; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 23:45:21 -0500 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: "jordi.palet@consulintel.es" , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 Thread-Index: AQHSPmvWzWI1eACr0E2MJMiM0juRyA== Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 04:45:21 +0000 Message-ID: <1AFA4083-313E-4BFE-88BE-4044FB65F44F@cable.comcast.com> References: <34B9CA17-15C4-45A1-84A0-4087719875CE@consulintel.es> <98D27065-4242-41EB-BA2B-752E1ACADDDE@cable.comcast.com> <2DAE62A1-659D-43AF-B39C-6C59275A9E5F@consulintel.es> <28A5000C-20A3-4912-A449-4D24B8AF0B3C@jisc.ac.uk> <02BF745D-29C6-4ACB-8DB2-81A3AF9D3D8F@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: <02BF745D-29C6-4ACB-8DB2-81A3AF9D3D8F@consulintel.es> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [96.115.73.252] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <0ED16A1AC398364799ACA0D99CA139FA@cable.comcast.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrDIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsWSUOxpoftkklaEwa8+Q4u/xz8zW5w+tpfZ gclj3f4AjyVLfjIFMEVx2aSk5mSWpRbp2yVwZWztnctUMM2wYuPZt2wNjF/0uxg5OSQETCRu r1zJDmILCcxkkjh4ga2LkQvIPsAoseHVbyYI5ySjxK62nWwgVWwCZhJbDt4G6xARiJGYvnMH C4gtLBAk8WnnJmaIeLDEpHWnmSBsPYlPT1+BxVkEVCWmn1kONodXwEVi89TTzBALnjNJrH+x mhEkwSngJNH8dR5YM6OAmMT3U2vAbGYBcYlbT+YzQZwtILFkz3lmCFtU4uXjf6wgtijIstur WSDiOhJnrz9hhLANJLYu3QcVV5T4N3s9kM0BNFNTYv0ufYjxDhKbHjVBrVKUmNL9kB3iTkGJ kzOfQLWKSxw+soN1AqPULCQXzUKYNAvJpFlIJs1CMmkBI+sqRrmyxMSU5NyM/NISA0O95MSk nFS95Pzc5MTiEhC9iREUx0Uy3jsY1/10P8QowMGoxMP7rFYrQog1say4MvcQowQHs5II74Uu oBBvSmJlVWpRfnxRaU5q8SFGaQ4WJXHerTc1I4QE0hNLUrNTUwtSi2CyTBycUg2MKarus4om 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d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1479185786; x=1479790586; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=Nnr+if1A65He6wxBxRH0VaIpK 58ujgirTiBCXj6Lc5Q=; b=b5/x1+ORpGNLPgTAPKof4ePOzqoEbMC6lF1oHF4A6 32PQ8HxvQ6lTlWaM+29idcsbv7rJoCKzG7ZozU337rclgqoIn5ziuThtCt2WMjgO 2nTz5ocJ6N1m7MiqRfsVi370Sy16dM2WxZK9nxuxecvqJrOTteKKZarD7omvUbla uY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=moKqTRwQAto9MsSzIwjkUAvhew8LP7KXn4u7SCdbhHT+45HREUPIsVHGm19g z5mgPAE/+JK2yvga/g8OyxyiJ112gnWtPGKN1nNM/fU7JmpLHE1viS1n2 j4GW6OPO5qrhSpYGg39DB+UPmRrtJmlIyU4Q3/kTOJNa25ZArkHKQM=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 15 Nov 2016 05:56:26 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 15 Nov 2016 05:56:25 +0100 Received: from [31.133.148.170] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005223768.msg for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 05:56:24 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:161115:md50005223768::pnbBJkC2PjZW2/GF:00001goD X-MDRemoteIP: 31.133.148.170 X-Return-Path: prvs=1127c674bb=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 13:56:17 +0900 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: v6ops list Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 References: <34B9CA17-15C4-45A1-84A0-4087719875CE@consulintel.es> <98D27065-4242-41EB-BA2B-752E1ACADDDE@cable.comcast.com> <2DAE62A1-659D-43AF-B39C-6C59275A9E5F@consulintel.es> <28A5000C-20A3-4912-A449-4D24B8AF0B3C@jisc.ac.uk> <02BF745D-29C6-4ACB-8DB2-81A3AF9D3D8F@consulintel.es> <1AFA4083-313E-4BFE-88BE-4044FB65F44F@cable.comcast.com> In-Reply-To: <1AFA4083-313E-4BFE-88BE-4044FB65F44F@cable.comcast.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 04:56:35 -0000 I saw now from where it comes the idea about your deployment draft. It is i= n the draft: 6. Future work o Informational draft regarding WLAN IPv6 Deployment technology experiences roll-out Regards, Jordi -----Mensaje original----- De: "Brzozowski, John" Responder a: Fecha: martes, 15 de noviembre de 2016, 13:45 Para: "jordi.palet@consulintel.es" , v6ops list= Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-hos= t-01 Jordi, =20 I am willing to consider the inclusion of additional text (probably in = the abstract) that outlines additional use cases where this approach may be= applicable. However, without real deployment experience I hesitate add to= o much additional text relating to these other use cases. =20 Regarding your last sentence below, there are no additional drafts plan= ned that describe our deployment of IPv6 for Wi-Fi. I apologize if I seeme= d to indicate otherwise. =20 John +1-484-962-0060 =20 -----Original Message----- From: v6ops on behalf of JORDI MARTINEZ Reply-To: JORDI MARTINEZ Date: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 at 04:16 To: v6ops Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-pe= r-host-01 =20 Responding to both Hemant and Tim =E2=80=A6 =20 I will agree with what you say if what I=E2=80=99m suggesting requi= res many changes in the actual text, but is not the case. They are minor cl= arifications that accommodates something with clearly happens in both scena= rios. At the end the existing document already mentions Ethernet, so, we ar= e not broadening the original scope, just making it more explicit. =20 I think we need to balance (and not just for this document), when w= e can apply something with minor wording to two well defined cases, among h= aving just one document instead of having to different documents, saying th= e same, one for the WiFi case, one for the shared Ethernet. =20 It doesn=E2=80=99t make any sense for the IETF to have =E2=80=9Cmor= e=E2=80=9D documents in those cases. What we do afterwards, make a copy of = the document and replace WiFi with Ethernet, so we ask the possible targets= of this work to read the same document twice? =20 By the way, I also understood from John, that a specific document w= ith the WiFi roll-out will follow =E2=80=A6 So more specific details about = that will be there. =20 Regards, Jordi =20 =20 -----Mensaje original----- De: Tim Chown Responder a: Fecha: martes, 15 de noviembre de 2016, 1:00 Para: Hemant Singh , v6ops list CC: Jordi Palet Martinez Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix= -per-host-01 =20 =20 On 14 Nov 2016, at 13:36, Hemant Singh w= rote: =20 =20 =20 On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 7:50 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ=20 wrote: =20 =20 >Note that 1, 3 and 6, are also an input to the actual text, ev= en in the case you don=E2=80=99t want to consider the data centre thing, ju= st to make sure to clarify that is valid in other shared technologies and n= ot >just in WiFi or Ethernet =E2=80=A6 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 I hear John as considering Comcast Xfinity wifi for the documen= t. I agree to clarify that the document covers only such a specific wifi n= etwork. We should not add the kitchen sink to the document. After all, ev= en cable broadband and cellular wireless use a shared medium, it's not just the data center, = Where do we stop? =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 I agree here. I think it=E2=80=99s best to be as specific as po= ssible in the document and put it out there as a BCP. Hence my earlier sug= gestion to tighten up the abstract to be more specific (that RA-based prefi= x configuration is used, etc). Nothing then precludes DHCP-PD being used elsewhere or in the future. =20 =20 Overall the draft is great - it describes an innovative deploym= ent well. It just needs some editorial polish and it=E2=80=99s good to go.= =20 =20 =20 Tim =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company =20 This electronic message contains information which may be privilege= d or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the ind= ividual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that= any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this infor= mation, including attached files, is prohibited. =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Mon Nov 14 23:58:16 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 47039129502 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 23:58:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.398 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.398 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GTlCMD2sPXPC for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 23:58:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from vaadcmhout01.cable.comcast.com (vaadcmhout01.cable.comcast.com [96.114.28.75]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1FCD3129676 for ; Mon, 14 Nov 2016 23:58:00 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 60721c4b-1f3ff700000045be-30-582ac0039063 Received: from VAADCEX15.cable.comcast.com (vaadcmhoutvip.cable.comcast.com [96.115.73.56]) (using TLS with cipher AES256-SHA256 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by (SMTP Gateway) with SMTP id 0A.F3.17854.300CA285; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 02:57:57 -0500 (EST) Received: from VAADCEX09.cable.comcast.com (147.191.102.76) by VAADCEX15.cable.comcast.com (147.191.102.82) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1130.7; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 02:57:55 -0500 Received: from VAADCEX09.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe12:e2a0]) by VAADCEX09.cable.comcast.com ([fe80::3aea:a7ff:fe12:e2a0%19]) with mapi id 15.00.1130.005; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 02:57:55 -0500 From: "Brzozowski, John" To: "jordi.palet@consulintel.es" , v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-01 Thread-Index: AQHSPmvWzWI1eACr0E2MJMiM0juRyKDZ0CyA///e7AA= Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 07:57:55 +0000 Message-ID: <80C9ADAA-2444-48D3-9E21-6C2B35EBDCBA@cable.comcast.com> References: <34B9CA17-15C4-45A1-84A0-4087719875CE@consulintel.es> <98D27065-4242-41EB-BA2B-752E1ACADDDE@cable.comcast.com> <2DAE62A1-659D-43AF-B39C-6C59275A9E5F@consulintel.es> <28A5000C-20A3-4912-A449-4D24B8AF0B3C@jisc.ac.uk> <02BF745D-29C6-4ACB-8DB2-81A3AF9D3D8F@consulintel.es> <1AFA4083-313E-4BFE-88BE-4044FB65F44F@cable.comcast.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1b.0.161010 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [96.115.73.254] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <554A74643796EF4D97D812EE565AE5F9@cable.comcast.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-CFilter-Loop: Forward X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrNIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsWSUOxpoct6QCvC4MgxEYu/xz8zW5w+tpfZ 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by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6E8F129641 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:29:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.151 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.151 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_BRBL_LASTEXT=1.449, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xCExfi1YZliZ for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:29:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from tor-smtp-01.primus.ca (smtp-auth-16.primus.ca [67.230.159.16]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 90A2512945E for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:29:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [58.120.104.2] (helo=[10.20.100.20]) by tor-smtp-01.primus.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1c6rqX-0002oa-Qp; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 23:29:18 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii From: Philip Matthews In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 13:29:08 +0900 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: To: Ron Bonica X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-Authenticated: philip_matthews - ([10.20.100.20]) [58.120.104.2] Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices: Addressing X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 04:29:19 -0000 Hi Ron: Victor and I had a quick look at your draft, then chatted about this. = We thought your -eping/xping draft looked interesting, though we didn't = read it in detail. We see one con that would be addressed by your = proposal, but there are still a few others.=20 I feel, and this is very much my personal opinion, is that an operator = that has "grown up" using IPv4 addresses on interfaces may not wish to = switch to a new paradigm when deploying dual-stack. On the other hand, = an operator with a new network that is IPv6-only internally may say = "only LLAs on links is fine with me".=20 This discussion ties in with discussion at the end of the v6ops meeting = on "things you can do differently (and better) with IPv6". -Philip On 2016-11-14, at 10:14 , Ron Bonica wrote: > Authors, >=20 > Would your conclusions in Section 2.1 be different if the following = were widely deployed: >=20 > - RFC 5837 > - draft-bonica-intarea-eping >=20 >=20 > Ron > /speaking as individual contributor > /shamelessly promoting his other work ;-) >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 From nobody Tue Nov 15 20:48:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD9E61294D4 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:48:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.15 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.15 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_BRBL_LASTEXT=1.449, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id d6GNF75hFvCq for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:48:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from tor-smtp-01.primus.ca (smtp-auth-12.primus.ca [67.230.159.12]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFB39129457 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:48:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from [58.120.104.2] (helo=[10.20.100.20]) by tor-smtp-01.primus.ca with esmtpsa (TLSv1:AES128-SHA:128) (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1c6s8r-0005dv-Pq; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 23:48:14 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v1085) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-46-600794570 From: Philip Matthews In-Reply-To: <21849F52-7A33-4CDC-B215-0EDFD0D5E8DF@jisc.ac.uk> Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 13:48:04 +0900 Message-Id: <1D7FFA4A-4B01-4DF9-B5BB-0B08A3542452@magma.ca> References: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <283B39A2-3AB1-4DD0-B3C0-8606C7A9E049@jisc.ac.uk> <21849F52-7A33-4CDC-B215-0EDFD0D5E8DF@jisc.ac.uk> To: Tim Chown , Lorenzo Colitti , Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1085) X-Authenticated: philip_matthews - ([10.20.100.20]) [58.120.104.2] Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 04:48:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail-46-600794570 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 On 2016-11-14, at 14:18 , Tim Chown wrote: >> On 14 Nov 2016, at 05:00, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: >>=20 >> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >> > - There=92s still a reference to the Experimental NPTv6 RFC 6296. I = guess this may remain contentious :) >>=20 >> Yes. It's like telling people it's a bad idea to stuff beans up their = noses, >> followed by instructions on how to do it. >>=20 >> +1. I'd prefer to remove this citation. I know some people don't like it. But, as has been mentioned a couple of = times this week, some operators are doing it.=20 Anyway, someone orally proposed a re-wording of this sentence at the = meeting that people seemed to find not too bad. I have forgotten the = details, but will pull it from the recording.=20 >> =20 >> > - IPv6 PI is getting easier to get - see = https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-655#IPv6_PI_Assignments for = RIPE region. >>=20 >> Maybe. But we know this is never going to happen for tens of millions = of small >> businesses, so I think the alternatives have to be presented as = neutrally as >> possible. >>=20 We will look at the new policies and see if some tweaks to the wording = is appropriate. However, I agree with Brian that millions of small = businesses are unlikely to get PI space. It may be easier, but you still = must apply, and convince the RIR that you qualify, and then pay the = annual fee. The only way I could see this happening for mom-and-pop = florist is if someone does all the work on their behalf. And ... do we = really want millions of small businesses to get PI space??? "News at 11 = -- Global routing tables hit the 10 million routes mark". >> Host addressing is out of scope for this draft, so it doesn't matter = so much, but if we're talking about multihoming we should note that the = best approach for smaller networks is multihoming using PA addresses via = source+destination based routing. That is is being pursued in the = homenet and routing working groups. >=20 > So as per the mic comment the design choices draft could/should = distinguish between multihoming and change of provider scenarios.=20 I thought we did, but will look at this again. >=20 > Tim >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --Apple-Mail-46-600794570 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252
On 14 Nov 2016, at 05:00, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> = wrote:

On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Brian E = Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> - There=92s still a reference to the Experimental = NPTv6 RFC 6296. I guess this may remain contentious :)

Yes. It's like telling people it's a bad idea to stuff beans up = their noses,
followed by instructions on how to do it.

+1. I'd prefer to remove this = citation.

I know some people don't like it. But, as has = been mentioned a couple of times this week, some operators are doing = it. 

Anyway, someone orally proposed a = re-wording of this sentence at the meeting that people seemed to find = not too bad.  I have forgotten the details, but will pull it from = the recording. 

 
> - IPv6 PI is getting easier to get - see https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-655#IPv6_PI_Assignments for RIPE region.

Maybe. But we know this is never going to happen for tens of = millions of small
businesses, so I think the alternatives have to be presented as = neutrally as
possible.


We will look at the new policies and see if = some tweaks to the wording is appropriate. However, I agree with Brian = that millions of small businesses are unlikely to get PI space. It may = be easier, but you still must apply, and convince the RIR that you = qualify, and then pay the annual fee.  The only way I could see = this happening for mom-and-pop florist is if someone does all the work = on their behalf.  And ... do we really want millions of small = businesses to get PI space??? "News at 11 -- Global routing tables hit = the 10 million routes mark".

Host addressing is out of scope for this draft, so it = doesn't matter so much, but if we're talking about multihoming we should = note that the best approach for smaller networks is multihoming using PA = addresses via source+destination based routing. That is is being pursued in the homenet and routing working = groups.

So as per the mic comment the design choices draft could/should = distinguish between multihoming and change of provider = scenarios. 

I thought = we did, but will look at this again.


Tim

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing = list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/= mailman/listinfo/v6ops

= --Apple-Mail-46-600794570-- From nobody Tue Nov 15 21:03:48 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF20012962D for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:03:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vp-erK1C5sYO for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:03:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-x22e.google.com (mail-it0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44D0A129481 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:03:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id o1so36864840ito.1 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:03:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aCqV9AzVuuP2/34Na9J9jmM2s02D/lePzJtbZfCzN+g=; b=gu3jyEsH64E7XeAqaNduthcbG2K3Zsl7rBrU2lhSwpFMLkWbn8qRJFJpwrFeM8fMVB 3U5a7+rN9ez0CudV4He5EIFoAHuMqU2GxZFV62FKsCY7xNYx6qwl0HwVb7TZdXIXhpgQ SHK7d4OQcv90Lz6oHQLfrytllkR8HNuKGpIhlCOvc3Nv+vLfBX92ncaAIa7DBYqsRuRM yttRk+rJ+mmSrJSRbTGRysjkeVQJB8BmU3xJw/9WRtcXsdGhL7SRDL0HYVoTwhYWN1hQ bTo8jwc6pGmuEn9IMJ1zuwoyV0BBMsHZfYxbY6wOQMO8XkjSU8lU1+ceG3u7yBvyAj46 yatg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aCqV9AzVuuP2/34Na9J9jmM2s02D/lePzJtbZfCzN+g=; b=id5dy1nPIRBCrZasfqmbrZL2/VORakkpi912nEoKBImxneJcMZ0d25FF+KtxnoW3r9 +rYaCA7kCmzx8weOPm7n1bwtLY+wzjq6Mqe4wx58B/vZzphjGbHyXQd4/ZP2Mng77twh Tf7Mz2j+TTu7w3bOBreKHIpAGEEjG6eHNf7aoTyc7ktxixlajQr9JY1wubdnsSJkmy8G yey+C6x0FOo8/eTr3tGnueOMbfjuTWrCxUN/zQAZB17ixlO1B+l5RiEZ7zJlz75irDDS wv0OZSjV8gGWg0qdV8RNSrnVUg3546kPgQdTk5WDRgtEfs4TKn+09i60zazcvx6l5zA/ 2NAg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvcuMnq/KCThE0+SCIiMqDOCC4gYRzC1+WwkPcYSHRWt+uuyhK1lW7QMG1FJU4sB7Vvg4xUX4t45a19/r5Pg X-Received: by 10.36.178.74 with SMTP id h10mr6207197iti.37.1479272624436; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:03:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.64.138.71 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:03:23 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1D7FFA4A-4B01-4DF9-B5BB-0B08A3542452@magma.ca> References: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <283B39A2-3AB1-4DD0-B3C0-8606C7A9E049@jisc.ac.uk> <21849F52-7A33-4CDC-B215-0EDFD0D5E8DF@jisc.ac.uk> <1D7FFA4A-4B01-4DF9-B5BB-0B08A3542452@magma.ca> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:03:23 +0900 Message-ID: To: Philip Matthews Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045d8fb04ea119054163ff95 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:03:47 -0000 --f403045d8fb04ea119054163ff95 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Philip Matthews wrote: > > do we really want millions of small businesses to get PI space??? "News at > 11 -- Global routing tables hit the 10 million routes mark". > If you discuss this topic in this draft, then please discuss draft-bowbakova-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-01 , since that (or something like that) is the real solution to the problem. --f403045d8fb04ea119054163ff95 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, Nov 16, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Philip Matthews <philip_matthews@magm= a.ca> wrote:
do we really want millions o= f small businesses to get PI space??? "News at 11 -- Global routing ta= bles hit the 10 million routes mark".

If you discuss this topic in this draft, then please disc= uss draft-bowbakova-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-01 , since that (or som= ething like that) is the real solution to the problem.
=C2=A0
--f403045d8fb04ea119054163ff95-- From nobody Tue Nov 15 21:07:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ECE7A1294F7 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:07:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.11 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.11 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIM_INVALID=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (body has been altered)" header.d=jisc365.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fah4pGQQlfA8 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:07:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from eu-smtp-delivery-189.mimecast.com (eu-smtp-delivery-189.mimecast.com [207.82.80.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D58BF129481 for ; 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Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:07:29 +0000 From: Tim Chown To: Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt Thread-Index: AQHSPda5++ro+3E0PUacuBtIyuVBWaDXOZiAgACitoCAAALGgIAADVmAgAAE6ICAAxw5AIAABEeAgAABIYA= Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:07:29 +0000 Message-ID: References: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <283B39A2-3AB1-4DD0-B3C0-8606C7A9E049@jisc.ac.uk> <21849F52-7A33-4CDC-B215-0EDFD0D5E8DF@jisc.ac.uk> <1D7FFA4A-4B01-4DF9-B5BB-0B08A3542452@magma.ca> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [2001:67c:370:128:e164:874e:287f:54b1] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM3PR07MB1140; 7:dgKgwbdXFKGQ7bHyPpLj5DkuKTqtcnDOEaLy9rGA6Ew9JAYDZtNwE0K5sV84YzZVQm76/uvkY/vmpTSF4EvvfsPtXdeo6WYRjttJFBXWD+06LGOp3//vX1kfqCqxTO1jKDL+j8RFs6T4ITkPrsPUBFDkMy4Ld48MUqYyqomj2uL7gG6vcJvYiuXmPV+9qfZpnZT4OamHd/wolJQWThG558t8//Ig8jqGzj7HsrjQoe8FRXpf8E/CNALFWb7J1PzH+kQMeLI+ngpcX3ygR57dYsS/pnzjwy5Xrc2+6vXlgsTZSA4w+lpOWAFzxDtyQaULIIrP1ScN7HbEqy4xeRLI0WqLuALbUZOaqvgZXQC5wpQ=; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AM3PR07MB1140; H:AM3PR07MB1140.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jisc.ac.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Nov 2016 05:07:29.0592 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 48f9394d-8a14-4d27-82a6-f35f12361205 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM3PR07MB1140 X-MC-Unique: 8pzf2x7tOVK-nGWYVUAHgA-1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_C6B6FBAF26A143C0BC68C3CA1EC6C191jiscacuk_" Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list , Philip Matthews Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 05:07:41 -0000 --_000_C6B6FBAF26A143C0BC68C3CA1EC6C191jiscacuk_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 16 Nov 2016, at 05:03, Lorenzo Colitti > wrote: On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Philip Matthews > wrote: do we really want millions of small businesses to get PI space??? "News at = 11 -- Global routing tables hit the 10 million routes mark". If you discuss this topic in this draft, then please discuss draft-bowbakov= a-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-01 , since that (or something like that) = is the real solution to the problem. +1 Again, the text can differentiate the case of multihoming (use Jen & co's w= ork) vs the case of resilience to a change of ISP. Tim --_000_C6B6FBAF26A143C0BC68C3CA1EC6C191jiscacuk_ Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-ID: <9460CFDAE1FF4B46AE715B470D056AAD@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 16 Nov 2016, at 05:03, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:

On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Philip Matthews= <philip_matthews@magma.ca> wrote:
do we really want millions of small businesses to get PI sp= ace??? "News at 11 -- Global routing tables hit the 10 million routes = mark".

If you discuss this topic in this draft, then please discus= s draft-bowbakova-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-01 , since that (or somet= hing like that) is the real solution to the problem.

+1

Again, the text can differentiate the case of multihoming (use Jen &am= p; co's work) vs the case of resilience to a change of ISP.

Tim

--_000_C6B6FBAF26A143C0BC68C3CA1EC6C191jiscacuk_-- From nobody Tue Nov 15 22:58:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 030201294D4 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:58:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0OarHZ3adNoH for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:58:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua0-x230.google.com (mail-ua0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 061261293EE for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:58:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua0-x230.google.com with SMTP id b35so106862819uaa.3 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:58:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WJzvMV0MyII7zwJ7tUZo4LqHCACsqzvZ+79V8YiIPGA=; b=uVkdJktx4Iw5o4qGm3i3eZbsMnwd/KBLaEf/5m1UbHfFsLq3U+tVz3+6c9+AxoyKc9 ENyKtRTeMEMexdDbW1h7eqYC35WLg9AyPBHLMHhqf+aub08jSLfg1a+DkjTS/cuEQdVM TqY03Q0kxcJvemq6/SX5/JgYX+JozGitvLrZ0OJ10azY1XbUhyf1kyR8f66LR20xISnu RzZi+EwU3ry01wKn39ll/7xlQ3f2y4T2TueuPxUIg3XICG6jXkfBDLrl7c6uifPVGN/7 P/TdRsRrG2545qB6dqX3WMBSqMMDHS+VI0OJX9rdaNRZdvm+iJ/6zIXYeo+n4QlHJaPx psiQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WJzvMV0MyII7zwJ7tUZo4LqHCACsqzvZ+79V8YiIPGA=; b=eET5FkZG9LFZxggg37y17auIUk+BwW4VT+/HZXg2FJiKxnGcHS6sMFwyYwEPs/3eHg nKIxN6+nX8EYPiV/twK6SP5ASvNZXJ1/MUJR2qaLOkX0/IZEQEsPkMiSls2KYRSKzgum 3kJVmvvBwr2TNnAxYLGfGNns4B1LhzUZAIDvKnVEtkU7gneb8EQYlCgxgLl7DgqMct58 3I5VkU8VDTns2xIMvlZCLKBWy24CqND2iLpWK4thUEbnfSr8uQd7uVMzqEBwQEf9gnoQ TsPA9wdAdZe7nbG3eEk9KDHmM9z04PZgsnEOoYXmWYgj327CduAt6SuYbtHEEM5hI6ZC +Knw== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvegIHvKuibcJQMpIEmOJQFCeNveYABvXotP6rdCPFX5kBvaNYMYfZX4Jsd9QLKeJ6LeDm7Ve66PYD7zWg== X-Received: by 10.159.39.7 with SMTP id a7mr667764uaa.95.1479279509055; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:58:29 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.48.212 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:58:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.159.48.212 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:58:28 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <1D7FFA4A-4B01-4DF9-B5BB-0B08A3542452@magma.ca> References: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <283B39A2-3AB1-4DD0-B3C0-8606C7A9E049@jisc.ac.uk> <21849F52-7A33-4CDC-B215-0EDFD0D5E8DF@jisc.ac.uk> <1D7FFA4A-4B01-4DF9-B5BB-0B08A3542452@magma.ca> From: Mark Smith Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:58:28 +1100 Message-ID: To: Philip Matthews Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1244f6a92cac05416599d9 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 06:58:32 -0000 --94eb2c1244f6a92cac05416599d9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On 16 Nov. 2016 15:48, "Philip Matthews" wrote: > > > On 2016-11-14, at 14:18 , Tim Chown wrote: > >>> On 14 Nov 2016, at 05:00, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: >>>> >>>> > - There=E2=80=99s still a reference to the Experimental NPTv6 RFC 62= 96. I guess this may remain contentious :) >>>> >>>> Yes. It's like telling people it's a bad idea to stuff beans up their noses, >>>> followed by instructions on how to do it. >>> >>> >>> +1. I'd prefer to remove this citation. > > > I know some people don't like it. But, as has been mentioned a couple of times this week, some operators are doing it. > > Anyway, someone orally proposed a re-wording of this sentence at the meeting that people seemed to find not too bad. I have forgotten the details, but will pull it from the recording. > Thinking about the new version, and the above, I think there may still be some scope issues. If this is purely about local IPv6 routing configuration in a local network, then I think the discussion of the differences and issues of ULA/PI/PA is irrelevant. The choice is a link-local only scheme or one which also uses > link local scope addresses. ULA vs PI vs PA only matters if the network is connected to the Internet, which is more of an external routing issue and more of one that is significant to hosts, although there is the issue of allowing external traceroutes inwards, and some ICMPv6 outbound with source addresses that don't get dropped by martian filters. (I'd agree that most routed IPv6 networks will be connected to the Internet, but it is not a requirement. If that is currently an unstated assumption and context for the whole document, then I think it should be stated.) Also, if it is a snapshot if what is happening now, then it could discuss pros and cons of what people are doing, however if it provides advice, then it is crossing over into BCP sort of territory, and what people are currently doing might not be good examples of what to do. (I too agree that mentioning NPTv6 like it has been comes across as tacit approval of it ("I'll just leave this here " seems like missing text.)) Regards, Mark. >>> >>>> >>>> > - IPv6 PI is getting easier to get - see https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-655#IPv6_PI_Assignments for RIPE region. >>>> >>>> Maybe. But we know this is never going to happen for tens of millions of small >>>> businesses, so I think the alternatives have to be presented as neutrally as >>>> possible. >>> >>> > > We will look at the new policies and see if some tweaks to the wording is appropriate. However, I agree with Brian that millions of small businesses are unlikely to get PI space. It may be easier, but you still must apply, and convince the RIR that you qualify, and then pay the annual fee. The only way I could see this happening for mom-and-pop florist is if someone does all the work on their behalf. And ... do we really want millions of small businesses to get PI space??? "News at 11 -- Global routing tables hit the 10 million routes mark". > >>> Host addressing is out of scope for this draft, so it doesn't matter so much, but if we're talking about multihoming we should note that the best approach for smaller networks is multihoming using PA addresses via source+destination based routing. That is is being pursued in the homenet and routing working groups. >> >> >> So as per the mic comment the design choices draft could/should distinguish between multihoming and change of provider scenarios. > > > I thought we did, but will look at this again. > >> >> Tim >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --94eb2c1244f6a92cac05416599d9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi,

On 16 Nov. 2016 15:48, "Philip Matthews" <philip_matthews@magma.ca> wro= te:
>
>
> On 2016-11-14, at 14:18 , Tim Chown wrote:
>
>>> On 14 Nov 2016, at 05:00, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 1:12 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com>= wrote:
>>>>
>>>> > - There=E2=80=99s still a reference to the Experiment= al NPTv6 RFC 6296. I guess this may remain contentious :)
>>>>
>>>> Yes. It's like telling people it's a bad idea to s= tuff beans up their noses,
>>>> followed by instructions on how to do it.
>>>
>>>
>>> +1. I'd prefer to remove this citation.
>
>
> I know some people don't like it. But, as has been mentioned a cou= ple of times this week, some operators are doing it.=C2=A0
>
> Anyway, someone orally proposed a re-wording of this sentence at the m= eeting that people seemed to find not too bad.=C2=A0 I have forgotten the d= etails, but will pull it from the recording.=C2=A0
>

Thinking about the new version, and the above, I think there= may still be some scope issues.

If this is purely about local IPv6 routing configuration in = a local network, then I think the discussion of the differences and issues = of ULA/PI/PA is irrelevant. The choice is a link-local only scheme or one w= hich also uses > link local scope addresses.

ULA vs PI vs PA only matters if the network is connected to= the Internet, which is more of an external routing issue and more of one t= hat is significant to hosts, although there is the issue of allowing extern= al traceroutes inwards, and some ICMPv6 outbound with source addresses that= don't get dropped by martian filters.

(I'd agree that most routed IPv6 networks will be connec= ted to the Internet, but it is not a requirement. If that is currently an u= nstated assumption and context for the whole document, then I think it shou= ld be stated.)

Also, if it is a snapshot if what is happening now, then it = could discuss pros and cons of what people are doing, however if it provide= s advice, then it is crossing over into BCP sort of territory, and what peo= ple are currently doing might not be good examples of what to do. (I too ag= ree that mentioning NPTv6 like it has been comes across as tacit approval o= f it ("I'll just leave this here <wink>" seems like mis= sing text.))

Regards,
Mark.

>>> =C2=A0
>>>>
>>>> > - IPv6 PI is getting easier to get - see https:/= /www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-655#IPv6_PI_Assignments for RIPE r= egion.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe. But we know this is never going to happen for tens = of millions of small
>>>> businesses, so I think the alternatives have to be present= ed as neutrally as
>>>> possible.
>>>
>>>
>
> We will look at the new policies and see if some tweaks to the wording= is appropriate. However, I agree with Brian that millions of small busines= ses are unlikely to get PI space. It may be easier, but you still must appl= y, and convince the RIR that you qualify, and then pay the annual fee.=C2= =A0 The only way I could see this happening for mom-and-pop florist is if s= omeone does all the work on their behalf.=C2=A0 And ... do we really want m= illions of small businesses to get PI space??? "News at 11 -- Global r= outing tables hit the 10 million routes mark".
>
>>> Host addressing is out of scope for this draft, so it doesn= 9;t matter so much, but if we're talking about multihoming we should no= te that the best approach for smaller networks is multihoming using PA addr= esses via source+destination based routing. That is is being pursued in the= homenet and routing working groups.
>>
>>
>> So as per the mic comment the design choices draft could/should di= stinguish between multihoming and change of provider scenarios.=C2=A0
>
>
> I thought we did, but will look at this again.
>
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://ww= w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ie= tf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

--94eb2c1244f6a92cac05416599d9-- From nobody Tue Nov 15 23:57:30 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C3C51295A8 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 23:57:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KCMJknvQVVb0 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 23:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-x235.google.com (mail-it0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94D2B129481 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 23:57:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-x235.google.com with SMTP id o1so41276452ito.1 for ; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 23:57:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QKNHzP9OsAZuYvUJLu3SJDvSH2JuZlQvIRFm0evPER4=; b=o7KLA5TiHPUKx+iNyp6hAL8PIvAuMw9tsltD0gAw0sYvtbr+9ErBX/yvotg/bdo99f oFAatOSaLz8HVE3RI9MVdbGv+1RacFJ2zPV5zbvxda6dLxDrbMAZ6+e7sT2Yh4yfVK/Q i8iTiFF33r5qssbHO8FRYoUgEaFM8jhP75GEwlZTmApvKi+q9Yc1CHhOee062dk6A5GR m/86fhZCBhXhsrGBX8LKFeKQB5AUan0p41+v+PqeC/lg3nvA9kL4ukEZqL57N9N0UKoi Z5fXj4VM2xoqdCRFHLzzBBoThpz5/LopxApGUVEBaSZbqVZnGY4VVSBKwkUeWsz6ZucA x96A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QKNHzP9OsAZuYvUJLu3SJDvSH2JuZlQvIRFm0evPER4=; b=glzddEqNgrpuGqsBiTexRjXAsSJBTykjlDR3WdPP/Orkha2DJh9Aph9xvdbZ6htXfi PQWYkgc8OALTgyg/pZbnxA2OIVr54Hau9FfwoE6y9R2weKsD+kihTbqnj4iAWOYmIxf9 Jr12p/8z4QjXzqamn5xdkFXA/mzJD2XxxPRUfWvZ/gcQysEwYjZn4ggFZR0QStw+V5bi DhxZ96i9lHdCErzp74oROgYMax22dBdPIle34xAZpBtVaoY6Uf/vdMNiCz9b44LFUi10 0JQWFs1eeSNBaP0c2RbGBcFVbRijWxBcurcriOvtaw6WsF35Lpz7A+BcXsjLQCGUIBDW j4hw== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngveJicXrXFz5ylNlXn5qzBtZIlS9Yeu+zFMikCk4ypI36JuTGziVLMVWRn9gdszncLj6ezdmaXK676A7j3Jn X-Received: by 10.107.53.36 with SMTP id c36mr1643841ioa.55.1479283046446; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 23:57:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.64.138.71 with HTTP; Tue, 15 Nov 2016 23:57:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <283B39A2-3AB1-4DD0-B3C0-8606C7A9E049@jisc.ac.uk> <21849F52-7A33-4CDC-B215-0EDFD0D5E8DF@jisc.ac.uk> <1D7FFA4A-4B01-4DF9-B5BB-0B08A3542452@magma.ca> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 16:57:05 +0900 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1144939a8200410541666c25 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list , Philip Matthews Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 07:57:29 -0000 --001a1144939a8200410541666c25 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > Thinking about the new version, and the above, I think there may still be > some scope issues. > > If this is purely about local IPv6 routing configuration in a local > network, then I think the discussion of the differences and issues of > ULA/PI/PA is irrelevant. The choice is a link-local only scheme or one > which also uses > link local scope addresses. > > ULA vs PI vs PA only matters if the network is connected to the Internet, > which is more of an external routing issue and more of one that is > significant to hosts, although there is the issue of allowing external > traceroutes inwards, and some ICMPv6 outbound with source addresses that > don't get dropped by martian filters. > +1 > (I too agree that mentioning NPTv6 like it has been comes across as tacit > approval of it ("I'll just leave this here " seems like missing > text.)) > +1, it should be deleted. I can't think of any use case where it would make sense to use NPT66 for router addresses. --001a1144939a8200410541666c25 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, Nov 16, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com&g= t; wrote:

Thinking = about the new version, and the above, I think there may still be some scope= issues.

If this is purely about local IPv6 routing configuration in = a local network, then I think the discussion of the differences and issues = of ULA/PI/PA is irrelevant. The choice is a link-local only scheme or one w= hich also uses > link local scope addresses.

ULA vs PI vs PA only matters if the network is connected to= the Internet, which is more of an external routing issue and more of one t= hat is significant to hosts, although there is the issue of allowing extern= al traceroutes inwards, and some ICMPv6 outbound with source addresses that= don't get dropped by martian filters.

+1

(I too agree that mentioning NPTv6 like it has been comes ac= ross as tacit approval of it ("I'll just leave this here <wink&= gt;" seems like missing text.))

+1, it should be = deleted. I can't think of any use case where it would make sense to use= NPT66 for router addresses.
--001a1144939a8200410541666c25-- From nobody Wed Nov 16 02:21:35 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63FF81296EC for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 02:21:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.352 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.352 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wBqRepo0MzU2 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 02:21:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6EB8E129537 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 02:21:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id uAGALRqT009118 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:21:27 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 76B57205843 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:21:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C0AE20304D for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:21:27 +0100 (CET) Received: from [132.166.84.142] ([132.166.84.142]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id uAGALPaB005034 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:21:26 +0100 To: "v6ops@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 19:21:23 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------2FBDC76AE7250785BD882D20" Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] IPv6-only wifi during IETF meetings? - expect higher energy consumption X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 10:21:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2FBDC76AE7250785BD882D20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi, During today's Plenary there was discussion about making IPv6 only wifi during some IETF meeting. If so, I was wondering whether people will perceive a larger battery drain in their devices? I am asking because we performed some measurements on a recent smartphone comparing various Internet usage (youtube, real-time, web browsing, ftp, etc.) and we seemed to find that IPv6 draws around 5% more energy from the battery than IPv4. That was on cellular, maybe wifi is different... Alex --------------2FBDC76AE7250785BD882D20 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hi,

During today's Plenary there was discussion about making IPv6 only wifi during some IETF meeting.

If so, I was wondering whether people will perceive a larger battery drain in their devices?

I am asking because we performed some measurements on a recent smartphone comparing various Internet usage (youtube, real-time, web browsing, ftp, etc.) and we seemed to find that IPv6 draws around 5% more energy from the battery than IPv4.  That was on cellular, maybe wifi is different...


Alex

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X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 13:43:18 -0000 On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 11:21 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > During today's Plenary there was discussion about making IPv6 only wifi > during some IETF meeting. > > If so, I was wondering whether people will perceive a larger battery drain > in their devices? Why? The current 'default' SSID (ietf) is dual-stack. If you switch to v6-only SSID, then you get rid of IPv4 and, as a result, ARP noise etc. > I am asking because we performed some measurements on a recent smartphone > comparing various Internet usage (youtube, real-time, web browsing, ftp, > etc.) and we seemed to find that IPv6 draws around 5% more energy from the > battery than IPv4. That was on cellular, maybe wifi is different... So you compared v4-only connectivity to v6-only? Or dual-stack to v6-only? Anyway you can always try yourself - use 'ietf' ssid for one day and ietf-nat64 for another ;) My phone has been connected to ietf-nat64 the whole week, I have not noticed any battery issues so far. -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Wed Nov 16 11:51:34 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 319AE129557 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:51:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xhvVm4X97MzH for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:51:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x234.google.com (mail-pg0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2685D1293E3 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:51:30 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x234.google.com with SMTP id f188so82151653pgc.3 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:51:30 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gnUru6qPrb7FV96nNCmcREouC9p1G9imYQiMghvqPt0=; b=UX3+o5+KTh97RQx2DxRDxgi84EKE2Yorf0s84v50TYPx227EpeAj2Td/Lf7prnLoX8 +wAwvd1kbkI9GEn208kc7vYEwUH537vwtPHYkbCTgyHmn/kWkDCOd7fvxDCUsWjSCwqj 4WL6IsxQYiRfSZU8YOnEsKyJUpdR3dgZCaGZxAl/9Jgc9o6c3INvl/75zIWT52n81XpG /JUcCHlsu47NPBwqeXZPfLReo+OJuDL5MTWpf+vrzMUuYwa6mK01zj0IMy4rHU8Kd0D5 nJcEvGc7yNZSjcPpUESRbV34arYWeubrLiF9Y/h3y4yc1cPuBeeFCQfNuxpMSvX6Qum4 6iCw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gnUru6qPrb7FV96nNCmcREouC9p1G9imYQiMghvqPt0=; b=F8qRaZ+mPaZ9NOUH1Fg+ijC1+zzwj7UC+eyxJrY2hA4HJQPK35IBpeRl990xdg71Tv ZhcOe+zi/ViNjXqTP0MtG+ko2g0Hl7/eMEXcoo4Jv4y+T4R4QnGHIoAhmqYGcP7IoS4r q2fULttn5qzovDQNQVclGMMJ9J9vCoElCSyCUCuSy/8BGLlePBEUGmsPTxdBTgwCRcWu jVVwhYP7BVkcfwwOzxO1CcZX8nHYOednjioaTE4T71FYsupsownHM+vXT/h33dIf/A0J /bqKHEHRFvUqfaJRyHvUXZq9C+WaeikIOhoQJNvbO2W4lUyCtny7nC4tisLPPiYGsbzs 8gsA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngve6TVAB5BG4DQnEFX0XQ1w57I/0vqHtn9mgEs02yFIgP/Sdn05O5PfgBn1gBvzh0A== X-Received: by 10.98.73.1 with SMTP id w1mr6960302pfa.123.1479325889516; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:51:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.23] (153.23.255.123.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [123.255.23.153]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y200sm56505543pfb.16.2016.11.16.11.51.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:51:28 -0800 (PST) To: Lorenzo Colitti , Philip Matthews References: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <283B39A2-3AB1-4DD0-B3C0-8606C7A9E049@jisc.ac.uk> <21849F52-7A33-4CDC-B215-0EDFD0D5E8DF@jisc.ac.uk> <1D7FFA4A-4B01-4DF9-B5BB-0B08A3542452@magma.ca> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <7883b62f-765a-8e1a-8362-bc32a3cdec19@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 08:51:32 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 19:51:32 -0000 On 16/11/2016 18:03, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Philip Matthews > wrote: >> >> do we really want millions of small businesses to get PI space??? "News at >> 11 -- Global routing tables hit the 10 million routes mark". >> > > If you discuss this topic in this draft, then please discuss > draft-bowbakova-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-01 , since that (or > something like that) is the real solution to the problem. Agreed (not to mention RFC 7157 and the RFC of draft-ietf-6man-multi-homed-host that will be published this week). We're close to making multi-PA viable. Brian From nobody Wed Nov 16 11:52:53 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1441F1294B6 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:52:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2eF60XwebHXn for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:52:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x230.google.com (mail-pg0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DC7001296EF for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:45:42 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x230.google.com with SMTP id p66so82315938pga.2 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:45:42 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=VVWt3v/8r1knFDYR4fNp3V98TF2RXewW8tAx+E8k9u8=; b=pDWsf44UXCjFU6/zX2j5DgUXrbcZ9i4CPVSh30Ch/CzzTxY4B9u9NM+y3K7tL1rRMC GghmZ/BaaKZfbd7w6ihWiNbKDA39RKwnKtrd9Pf1s8pP8e7znfpEvx5X7/PEfapVWGzU GINlDd3ANGkYMxCUxPBwIW+4DTjku87GD+DDBhtMdmqEE2PwkmKlOTPceolcT8eXP0pi 0fBHcVKBRBnnWh3/tQgYZZxWg8QyPbBlepZw9J3ZQT6dOwph1sHfFU5yquXly2umCohT 97vmUvUI4m3AIb79G4hCO/Agw4Y/Sg2c5FtgzmNk8Tjz3hJemYR20btuIsCf56t0JGV9 tSnw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=VVWt3v/8r1knFDYR4fNp3V98TF2RXewW8tAx+E8k9u8=; b=R0aKjyK+iOk09ByDrbGAA9EH8RJkRaO9GDutD3IwuVvC/uHqqdNpann6ko368YVkhO YCEzusFCJOu2iSVjjCBYDPDeRsmil3UzXFAqPjdXgIagz+IlZe9E23WvHoNcuAp+W07N bejYnhRG9mJgtL4Rd4R3m5T+bCYKHfykzMguOcuI3Ptxz/Kgq54cCwq4cM4fv0eXZCQn jSirMsbaLWdWQtdfgHYDNJeunpvTHGtfrlP0g5mvegP0PRNUXMgPcuJtxJ4OpoKus825 aYOWIDPfACVYBhJnzqz3J/B+Q0k3WvRumrCplMPDnIlRuBf00Fuqp4X1yLeXj/cuM5rh gGwg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngveg8ywvlL1UtvOq9qGgEu/af7LJgSM2Goy9uK0T9gRr7HQGxYIia7r1YA9xHP4mfA== X-Received: by 10.99.109.6 with SMTP id i6mr11716283pgc.139.1479325542554; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:45:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.23] (153.23.255.123.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [123.255.23.153]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t21sm32355206pfa.1.2016.11.16.11.45.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:45:41 -0800 (PST) To: Lorenzo Colitti , Mark Smith References: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <283B39A2-3AB1-4DD0-B3C0-8606C7A9E049@jisc.ac.uk> <21849F52-7A33-4CDC-B215-0EDFD0D5E8DF@jisc.ac.uk> <1D7FFA4A-4B01-4DF9-B5BB-0B08A3542452@magma.ca> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <4f577afb-75b1-f74e-8abb-9f09e3a3f222@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 08:45:44 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list , Philip Matthews Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 19:52:52 -0000 Regards Brian Carpenter On 16/11/2016 20:57, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > >> Thinking about the new version, and the above, I think there may still be >> some scope issues. >> >> If this is purely about local IPv6 routing configuration in a local >> network, then I think the discussion of the differences and issues of >> ULA/PI/PA is irrelevant. The choice is a link-local only scheme or one >> which also uses > link local scope addresses. >> >> ULA vs PI vs PA only matters if the network is connected to the Internet, >> which is more of an external routing issue and more of one that is >> significant to hosts, although there is the issue of allowing external >> traceroutes inwards, and some ICMPv6 outbound with source addresses that >> don't get dropped by martian filters. >> > +1 > >> (I too agree that mentioning NPTv6 like it has been comes across as tacit >> approval of it ("I'll just leave this here " seems like missing >> text.)) >> > +1, it should be deleted. I can't think of any use case where it would make > sense to use NPT66 for router addresses. Yes. The fact that people are using it is *not* a reason for publicising a bad practice. Brian From nobody Wed Nov 16 17:41:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2F94B1295C8 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:41:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ylBmshMMkV0n for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:41:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.145]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 271EA1293FD for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:41:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id uAH1f8eo030696; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 02:41:08 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id E20B1200E80; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 02:41:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3FEE200C16; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 02:41:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from [132.166.84.18] ([132.166.84.18]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id uAH1f6gd027707; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 02:41:07 +0100 To: Jen Linkova References: From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <76891d2b-a1b5-e8a0-a01d-616ddc68f490@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 10:40:50 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6-only wifi during IETF meetings? - expect higher energy consumption X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:41:13 -0000 Le 16/11/2016 à 22:42, Jen Linkova a écrit : > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 11:21 AM, Alexandre Petrescu > wrote: >> During today's Plenary there was discussion about making IPv6 only >> wifi during some IETF meeting. >> >> If so, I was wondering whether people will perceive a larger >> battery drain in their devices? > > Why? The current 'default' SSID (ietf) is dual-stack. If you switch > to v6-only SSID, then you get rid of IPv4 and, as a result, ARP noise > etc. Jen, I can understand the v6-only SSID at IETF will not have any ARP on it. But it would have some ND instead, right? >> I am asking because we performed some measurements on a recent >> smartphone comparing various Internet usage (youtube, real-time, >> web browsing, ftp, etc.) and we seemed to find that IPv6 draws >> around 5% more energy from the battery than IPv4. That was on >> cellular, maybe wifi is different... > > So you compared v4-only connectivity to v6-only? Or dual-stack to > v6-only? I do not know what you mean by 'dual-stack'? There were two stacks in this smartphone: an IPv4 stack and an IPv6 stack. The wireshark dumps show only IPv4 traffic when testing IPv4 and only IPv6-traffic when testing IPv6. The smartphone is connected to an IPv6-only cellular APN when testing IPv6 and to an IPv4-only APN when testing IPv4. I suppose this is the right way to test IPv4 vs IPv6. > Anyway you can always try yourself - use 'ietf' ssid for one day and > ietf-nat64 for another ;) I have a big problem with both 'ietf' and 'ietf-nat64' SSIDs at IETF since multiple IETF meetings now. My recent Windows laptop does not want to connect to any of these two - it complains about some certificate matters. For this reason I only use ietf-legacy while at IETF. (and yes I asked both IETF network operators and my IT - they blame each other) > My phone has been connected to ietf-nat64 the whole week, I have not > noticed any battery issues so far. Well yes, I can understand that. But I am not expecting spectacular things like 50% more battery drain. The measured approx 5% more power consumption could be noticed in some extreme situation. One would have to bring that smartphone close to the battery exhaustion limit, and be in a place without recharge possibility. In this situation a user would turn off WiFi, GPS, inertial sensor, dim the screen, stop some apps, and... prefer IPv4. Alex From nobody Wed Nov 16 17:41:18 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DD95B1293FD for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:41:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.353 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.353 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MOGChXZvItdt for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:41:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A00C129516 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:41:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id uAH1f8Ci020011; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 02:41:09 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id E2CA0200E8F; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 02:41:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4028200C43; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 02:41:08 +0100 (CET) Received: from [132.166.84.18] ([132.166.84.18]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id uAH1f68L027708; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 02:41:07 +0100 To: "Heatley, Nick" References: <6536E263028723489CCD5B6821D4B2132C3DF310@UK30S005EXS06.EEAD.EEINT.CO.UK> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <984812f0-fd71-1134-4bcc-5c87c0693dd2@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 10:41:04 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6536E263028723489CCD5B6821D4B2132C3DF310@UK30S005EXS06.EEAD.EEINT.CO.UK> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6-only wifi during IETF meetings? - expect higher energy consumption X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:41:14 -0000 Le 16/11/2016 à 19:38, Heatley, Nick a écrit : > Can you be more specific on the test conditions? > > Key question, was the phone dual stack or IPv6-only? I will reply with what I know, but I dont know what you mean by 'dual stack'? The tests were performed with an of-the-shelf Android phone on the market this year. This OS has two stacks inside: an IPv4 stack and an IPv6 stack. But I am afraid you could mean something else by 'dual stack'. When we tested the IPv6 stack the smartphone was connected on an IPv6-only APN ("APN" is somehow the cellular equivalent of an ESSID in WiFi). When we tested the IPv4 stack the smartphone was connected on an IPv4-only APN. We will have to add this clarification. It's true I could not find an /etc/resolv.conf file, even though the DNS resolution worked fine; I suppose this has something to do with you talking about dual-stack. Or maybe not. > Was the tcp performance identical (but battery drain different)? We did not focus on measuring the TCP performance in particular. Not sure what kind of test of TCP performance would one expect? (something like running iperf? something like measuring useful packet reception vs retransmission rates? something like looking at an advancement bar feel how fast it advances?) > I would struggle to get accuracy to less than 15%, without keeping > within a perfect lab environment. I agree, accuracy varies a lot, many measurements are performed and means can be expressed (averages, medians, deviations, etc.). Alex > > > *From:*v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] *On Behalf Of *Alexandre > Petrescu *Sent:* 16 November 2016 10:21 *To:* v6ops@ietf.org > *Subject:* [v6ops] IPv6-only wifi during IETF meetings? - expect > higher energy consumption > > > > Hi, > > During today's Plenary there was discussion about making IPv6 only > wifi during some IETF meeting. > > If so, I was wondering whether people will perceive a larger battery > drain in their devices? > > I am asking because we performed some measurements on a recent > smartphone comparing various Internet usage (youtube, real-time, web > browsing, ftp, etc.) and we seemed to find that IPv6 draws around 5% > more energy from the battery than IPv4. That was on cellular, maybe > wifi is different... > > > Alex > > NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER This email contains BT information, which may > be privileged or confidential. It's meant only for the individual(s) > or entity named above. If you're not the intended recipient, note > that disclosing, copying, distributing or using this information is > prohibited. If you've received this email in error, please let me > know immediately on the email address above. Thank you. > > We monitor our email system, and may record your emails. > > EE Limited Registered office:Trident Place, Mosquito Way, Hatfield, > Hertfordshire, AL10 9BW Registered in England no: 02382161 > > EE Limited is a wholly owned subsidiary of: > > British Telecommunications plc Registered office: 81 Newgate Street > London EC1A 7AJ Registered in England no: 1800000 > From nobody Wed Nov 16 19:43:44 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D8E712957F for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 19:43:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 46CqetGOQ0ic for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 19:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-x22f.google.com (mail-it0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B35EF129462 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 19:43:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id l8so110339766iti.1 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 19:43:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=rtWl/77ECob0DzghNXgcyCn7sSPTxM8DsJZEsmMHxIQ=; b=ktHsfzszmUOZZn5hsVkoHVKCTGiz2zPep2TxFDoy0zxcGgJqH7nqTnVxgortUhZK+u Xca0/8blbB/O8oBVpt+Gf2YOLBtgTdlUNI4Cz4J+M35rmZLPxtxSDys2APmClK7N8zHs vdba06jvQ3k09w3KOSZm+jkP4dbKe70nEOVKd3NE6xTaFLG6sg9Exb0vQZWcn2XAizaL rITbjUxtZuCHNi5Kv4wopLnnvTkdtziSza/e9OrkmrTtxuBAsmfhbmkj65sL7/VULCrp 0BheaL8ncURuVwboS/+WZbdOjHx6lB5uiQS5PtI2me/4LxbwTQq6VegHYH69X0iFoPlY ZF7w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=rtWl/77ECob0DzghNXgcyCn7sSPTxM8DsJZEsmMHxIQ=; b=UQy+Itv7ZB382fCHiE4HtwO2fOLcnER75tPtJPZHIi4taadSS2QgaJsFp/BO5qAlCR yCMbGX5tpJ6h+u5ZQ8jcvLZB0RgVHuY6/FX9fuxS/mSXFO6Z3cCujykHGYwumVyDkyDp N9G57m7RkB8pppyMBJZQ2Ry+SCzW/zNOKE7EwAOcLJP0a+xLzaQg7PcGnHAUcBT9Wz54 GpJav/OmJ3MWJLrqDwcIypPQup0lFVn7GKx/VJdgdK3Ak2JJhFKqykBD/FKcaXTvFq6l 8L9/7Tn62OqBKJlmVYEc4kJ22OEgetADBrB/4LUXVmZeFj3oR/Ypz+1o66bBuuJcImBf v/vg== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvd2DrmPk/MxQ0QwHIgz13MoYtMHOuUOEpITR736CbQvN4QtLFBOY7e841wOr7LENdF9MTVprbhjdyyoKA== X-Received: by 10.36.2.76 with SMTP id 73mr10344494itu.18.1479354221045; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 19:43:41 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.2.72 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 19:43:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <76891d2b-a1b5-e8a0-a01d-616ddc68f490@gmail.com> References: <76891d2b-a1b5-e8a0-a01d-616ddc68f490@gmail.com> From: Jen Linkova Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 04:43:20 +0100 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6-only wifi during IETF meetings? - expect higher energy consumption X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 03:43:43 -0000 On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:40 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >>> During today's Plenary there was discussion about making IPv6 only >>> wifi during some IETF meeting. >>> >>> If so, I was wondering whether people will perceive a larger >>> battery drain in their devices? >> >> Why? The current 'default' SSID (ietf) is dual-stack. If you switch >> to v6-only SSID, then you get rid of IPv4 and, as a result, ARP noise >> etc. > Jen, I can understand the v6-only SSID at IETF will not have any ARP on > it. But it would have some ND instead, right? Not instead. ND is already here on the default ("IETF") SSID. So those people who are on the default SSID and are seeing ND + ARP currently, will see just ND if/when the default SSID becomes IPv6-only. >>> I am asking because we performed some measurements on a recent >>> smartphone comparing various Internet usage (youtube, real-time, >>> web browsing, ftp, etc.) and we seemed to find that IPv6 draws >>> around 5% more energy from the battery than IPv4. That was on >>> cellular, maybe wifi is different... >> >> >> So you compared v4-only connectivity to v6-only? Or dual-stack to >> v6-only? > > > I do not know what you mean by 'dual-stack'? There were two stacks in > this smartphone: an IPv4 stack and an IPv6 stack. The wireshark dumps > show only IPv4 traffic when testing IPv4 and only IPv6-traffic when > testing IPv6. > > The smartphone is connected to an IPv6-only cellular APN when testing > IPv6 and to an IPv4-only APN when testing IPv4. That was my question, what did you compare a phone on v6-only APN' with: a phone connected to v4-only or dual-stack APN? Anyway I could not comment on your 5% results w/o knowing more on your testing/measuring methodology... >> Anyway you can always try yourself - use 'ietf' ssid for one day and >> ietf-nat64 for another ;) > > > I have a big problem with both 'ietf' and 'ietf-nat64' SSIDs at IETF > since multiple IETF meetings now. > > My recent Windows laptop does not want to connect to any of these two - > it complains about some certificate matters. > > For this reason I only use ietf-legacy while at IETF. Does your phone has the same problem? > Well yes, I can understand that. But I am not expecting spectacular > things like 50% more battery drain. > > The measured approx 5% more power consumption could be noticed in some > extreme situation. One would have to bring that smartphone close to the > battery exhaustion limit, and be in a place without recharge > possibility. In this situation a user would turn off WiFi, GPS, > inertial sensor, dim the screen, stop some apps, and... prefer IPv4. If you turn off WiFi - it does not matter what version of protocol you prefer on the disabled interface ;)) -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Wed Nov 16 21:19:52 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57B93129889 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 21:19:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id StDZDCfUH91W for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 21:19:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.142]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62AB0129532 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 21:19:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id uAH5JApB028785; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 06:19:10 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id B2A6F200CF8; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 06:19:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3E34200803; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 06:19:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from [132.166.84.28] ([132.166.84.28]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id uAH5J8ZQ025611; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 06:19:09 +0100 To: Jen Linkova References: <76891d2b-a1b5-e8a0-a01d-616ddc68f490@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <2987c727-52fd-b43d-8c5d-d56bd43d6332@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:19:07 +0900 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6-only wifi during IETF meetings? - expect higher energy consumption X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 05:19:50 -0000 Le 17/11/2016 à 12:43, Jen Linkova a écrit : > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:40 AM, Alexandre Petrescu > wrote: >>>> During today's Plenary there was discussion about making IPv6 only >>>> wifi during some IETF meeting. >>>> >>>> If so, I was wondering whether people will perceive a larger >>>> battery drain in their devices? >>> >>> Why? The current 'default' SSID (ietf) is dual-stack. If you switch >>> to v6-only SSID, then you get rid of IPv4 and, as a result, ARP noise >>> etc. > >> Jen, I can understand the v6-only SSID at IETF will not have any ARP on >> it. But it would have some ND instead, right? > > Not instead. ND is already here on the default ("IETF") SSID. > So those people who are on the default SSID and are seeing ND + ARP currently, > will see just ND if/when the default SSID becomes IPv6-only. Ah I see. So it may be that currently the computers on SSID see too much traffic (both ND and ARP) and may draw them more battery than if they only saw one. >>>> I am asking because we performed some measurements on a recent >>>> smartphone comparing various Internet usage (youtube, real-time, >>>> web browsing, ftp, etc.) and we seemed to find that IPv6 draws >>>> around 5% more energy from the battery than IPv4. That was on >>>> cellular, maybe wifi is different... >>> >>> >>> So you compared v4-only connectivity to v6-only? Or dual-stack to >>> v6-only? >> >> >> I do not know what you mean by 'dual-stack'? There were two stacks in >> this smartphone: an IPv4 stack and an IPv6 stack. The wireshark dumps >> show only IPv4 traffic when testing IPv4 and only IPv6-traffic when >> testing IPv6. >> >> The smartphone is connected to an IPv6-only cellular APN when testing >> IPv6 and to an IPv4-only APN when testing IPv4. > > That was my question, what did you compare a phone on v6-only APN' > with: a phone connected to v4-only or dual-stack APN? Yes. > Anyway I could not comment on your 5% results w/o knowing more on your > testing/measuring methodology... I agree, I will have to put the numbers and the testing conditions in a draft. > >>> Anyway you can always try yourself - use 'ietf' ssid for one day and >>> ietf-nat64 for another ;) >> >> >> I have a big problem with both 'ietf' and 'ietf-nat64' SSIDs at IETF >> since multiple IETF meetings now. >> >> My recent Windows laptop does not want to connect to any of these two - >> it complains about some certificate matters. >> >> For this reason I only use ietf-legacy while at IETF. > > Does your phone has the same problem? This is something to try. I dont know. There may be some differences between how much the company laptop is tuned by the IT department, and the smartphone. Is your smartphone tuned by your IT department? > >> Well yes, I can understand that. But I am not expecting spectacular >> things like 50% more battery drain. >> >> The measured approx 5% more power consumption could be noticed in some >> extreme situation. One would have to bring that smartphone close to the >> battery exhaustion limit, and be in a place without recharge >> possibility. In this situation a user would turn off WiFi, GPS, >> inertial sensor, dim the screen, stop some apps, and... prefer IPv4. > > If you turn off WiFi - it does not matter what version of protocol you > prefer on the disabled interface ;)) I meant one could still use the cellular interface. It's true that on some smartphones the cell iface consumes more than the wifi, or vice-versa. But there's always advantage in turning off one of them if needing to save battery. Alex > From nobody Wed Nov 16 22:06:33 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6991129538 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:06:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jvknet-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zm25LCo9joIb for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x236.google.com (mail-pf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA7E1129650 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id c4so35514145pfb.1 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:06:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jvknet-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=mYJEi1082dw6zqTqtkAC0Aui5FtPI3BD2zh90Ft9O2s=; b=CuOE7CSYEr2Y2RGpZmDAarZsXNyTZib3rX3lDLAGVFa0dRVoD12skwE8vHyf+KrUJc FB4lbQSW/Uf7YjQMk0wgT25DNSfuagjomsEm20Buw1CfYLGNtSqtCi6qWC/UfXArJiHr rQogcaJRgkv5N+XV2zNicqrgHYkQ7aZxJBM3Uaa/dff7pkPNeBVGm21UXLvVyPWNh0OZ AQCCoHgYdOCEUIGkwdgz7MlwtyQRrvFzf0gte/jkAI/Euiv2uP09Zm47nOyiBBPNmzBB UcCOkF5WUXWhqpQEZQt0JlZNYV8adPTM1HFVfeFEshN6QIYUCB4fRhTB3l+8DgbGk0R5 A1rA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=mYJEi1082dw6zqTqtkAC0Aui5FtPI3BD2zh90Ft9O2s=; b=JF516B97GfeB4CLNquusOlZ7tmfOre4R5EUcDTTFyi/xHLm38DPdEDMPwtb3XvxUbo fGlJMEug2WQwTQXwkPww0HysF2TvpGdZD3Z6LvLSB4Rk1WWOr3pDNep+rp/Qgo0biuz9 BOF1Fz2TNh5+df7elaSrjFcN0Bvd0TJGMAl98HQCLEJHNcPed/cFNwhKsfKlj5q4kY8L 69I2bK1Ukcwp+Dz+z+SYTAoQyXQOCHn5l+FBUEIkrgbyTIkucfBmVikl4dhYsJJ8wStG ePxWbWTHCvkse2/H1GKCf6/RTQHSt6mQNn+L6gy2v3n/IxHm7p71Lod2lulYMUDg2fD0 AyAA== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngvfIpSI4N9QfqFogXcVcOSYzsMU4QStpUt+h6+yTq0s0zLd75I6qNEYUtDaab/Gmdg== X-Received: by 10.99.178.89 with SMTP id t25mr3734473pgo.131.1479362788298; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:06:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:420:c0dc:1002::85? ([2001:420:c0dc:1002::85]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c15sm2730685pfd.36.2016.11.16.22.06.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:06:27 -0800 (PST) To: Mark Smith , Philip Matthews References: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <283B39A2-3AB1-4DD0-B3C0-8606C7A9E049@jisc.ac.uk> <21849F52-7A33-4CDC-B215-0EDFD0D5E8DF@jisc.ac.uk> <1D7FFA4A-4B01-4DF9-B5BB-0B08A3542452@magma.ca> From: Victor Kuarsingh Message-ID: <56c708a9-575d-d65f-eb3e-1d926bff2e29@jvknet.com> Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:06:23 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CAB8445235481DEB7BD22F82" Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 06:06:31 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CAB8445235481DEB7BD22F82 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2016-11-16 1:58 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > > > > > Thinking about the new version, and the above, I think there may still > be some scope issues. > > If this is purely about local IPv6 routing configuration in a local > network, then I think the discussion of the differences and issues of > ULA/PI/PA is irrelevant. The choice is a link-local only scheme or one > which also uses > link local scope addresses. > Not sure I agree with this statement. Given that there is a difference in expected behavior in various use cases, discussing it is relevant. In designing multiple networks in the past, we considered the differences of these address types each time. Such considerations occurred applying IPv6 to Cable Access, Core networks, Mobile Core networks, Mobile RANs networks, Video networks, Business Networks, Enterprise networks and data centers. So that to me signifies relevance. GUA vs. ULA - it's relevant if you expect to reach (or be reached) by hosts outside your network PI vs PA - it's relevant as the work needed during address block acquisition and potentially if renumbering is needed. > ULA vs PI vs PA only matters if the network is connected to the > Internet, which is more of an external routing issue and more of one > that is significant to hosts, although there is the issue of allowing > external traceroutes inwards, and some ICMPv6 outbound with source > addresses that don't get dropped by martian filters. > Operationally speaking, it's not just the technical characteristics of the address that are relevant when choosing addresses. The life cycle of the address is also a part of the consideration. > (I'd agree that most routed IPv6 networks will be connected to the > Internet, but it is not a requirement. If that is currently an > unstated assumption and context for the whole document, then I think > it should be stated.) > > Also, if it is a snapshot if what is happening now, then it could > discuss pros and cons of what people are doing, however if it provides > advice, then it is crossing over into BCP sort of territory, and what > people are currently doing might not be good examples of what to do. > (I too agree that mentioning NPTv6 like it has been comes across as > tacit approval of it ("I'll just leave this here " seems like > missing text.)) > I would think the designer would be able to take the information supplied in the draft and connect it to their needs. Some networks are connected to the Internet, some are not, the designer would know that. I am not sure speculating as to how many or why networks may or may not be connected to the Internet is something we can correctly document. > Regards, > Mark. > regards, Victor K > >>> > >>>> > >>>> > - IPv6 PI is getting easier to get - see > https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-655#IPv6_PI_Assignments > for RIPE region. > >>>> > >>>> Maybe. But we know this is never going to happen for tens of > millions of small > >>>> businesses, so I think the alternatives have to be presented as > neutrally as > >>>> possible. > >>> > >>> > > > > We will look at the new policies and see if some tweaks to the > wording is appropriate. However, I agree with Brian that millions of > small businesses are unlikely to get PI space. It may be easier, but > you still must apply, and convince the RIR that you qualify, and then > pay the annual fee. The only way I could see this happening for > mom-and-pop florist is if someone does all the work on their behalf. > And ... do we really want millions of small businesses to get PI > space??? "News at 11 -- Global routing tables hit the 10 million > routes mark". > > > >>> Host addressing is out of scope for this draft, so it doesn't > matter so much, but if we're talking about multihoming we should note > that the best approach for smaller networks is multihoming using PA > addresses via source+destination based routing. That is is being > pursued in the homenet and routing working groups. > >> > >> > >> So as per the mic comment the design choices draft could/should > distinguish between multihoming and change of provider scenarios. > > > > > > I thought we did, but will look at this again. > > > >> > >> Tim > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> v6ops mailing list > >> v6ops@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --------------CAB8445235481DEB7BD22F82 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 2016-11-16 1:58 AM, Mark Smith wrote:

>

Thinking about the new version, and the above, I think there may still be some scope issues.

If this is purely about local IPv6 routing configuration in a local network, then I think the discussion of the differences and issues of ULA/PI/PA is irrelevant. The choice is a link-local only scheme or one which also uses > link local scope addresses.

Not sure I agree with this statement.  Given that there is a difference in expected behavior in various use cases, discussing it is relevant. In designing multiple networks in the past, we considered the differences of these address types each time.  Such considerations occurred applying IPv6 to Cable Access, Core networks, Mobile Core networks, Mobile RANs networks, Video networks, Business Networks, Enterprise networks and data centers.  So that to me signifies relevance. 

GUA vs. ULA - it's relevant if you expect to reach (or be reached) by hosts outside your network
PI vs PA - it's relevant as the work needed during address block acquisition and potentially if renumbering is needed.

ULA vs PI vs PA only matters if the network is connected to the Internet, which is more of an external routing issue and more of one that is significant to hosts, although there is the issue of allowing external traceroutes inwards, and some ICMPv6 outbound with source addresses that don't get dropped by martian filters.

Operationally speaking, it's not just the technical characteristics of the address that are relevant when choosing addresses.  The life cycle of the address is also a part of the consideration.

(I'd agree that most routed IPv6 networks will be connected to the Internet, but it is not a requirement. If that is currently an unstated assumption and context for the whole document, then I think it should be stated.)


Also, if it is a snapshot if what is happening now, then it could discuss pros and cons of what people are doing, however if it provides advice, then it is crossing over into BCP sort of territory, and what people are currently doing might not be good examples of what to do. (I too agree that mentioning NPTv6 like it has been comes across as tacit approval of it ("I'll just leave this here <wink>" seems like missing text.))


I would think the designer would be able to take the information supplied in the draft and connect it to their needs.  Some networks are connected to the Internet, some are not, the designer would know that.  I am not sure speculating as to how many or why networks may or may not be connected to the Internet is something we can correctly document.

Regards,
Mark.


regards,

Victor K

>>>  
>>>>
>>>> > - IPv6 PI is getting easier to get - see https://www.ripe.net/publications/docs/ripe-655#IPv6_PI_Assignments for RIPE region.
>>>>
>>>> Maybe. But we know this is never going to happen for tens of millions of small
>>>> businesses, so I think the alternatives have to be presented as neutrally as
>>>> possible.
>>>
>>>
>
> We will look at the new policies and see if some tweaks to the wording is appropriate. However, I agree with Brian that millions of small businesses are unlikely to get PI space. It may be easier, but you still must apply, and convince the RIR that you qualify, and then pay the annual fee.  The only way I could see this happening for mom-and-pop florist is if someone does all the work on their behalf.  And ... do we really want millions of small businesses to get PI space??? "News at 11 -- Global routing tables hit the 10 million routes mark".
>
>>> Host addressing is out of scope for this draft, so it doesn't matter so much, but if we're talking about multihoming we should note that the best approach for smaller networks is multihoming using PA addresses via source+destination based routing. That is is being pursued in the homenet and routing working groups.
>>
>>
>> So as per the mic comment the design choices draft could/should distinguish between multihoming and change of provider scenarios. 
>
>
> I thought we did, but will look at this again.
>
>>
>> Tim
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>



_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

--------------CAB8445235481DEB7BD22F82-- From nobody Wed Nov 16 23:15:07 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A87D129507 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:15:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C3aIuKjSoVjK for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:15:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-x22e.google.com (mail-it0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F0DC127A90 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:15:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id l8so119035973iti.1 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:15:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ITJkA6CdJbKsdTI9/qHoEbb2tGU1Br7LaCVaMGMgtiA=; b=FlFSowdPGkyWQgTus97cpjx6nPIWosiqfJfk3d3boDq8h3Yfg7QJ+ehjIvVBMZV5dJ 761szCm7udhC5MjNk12dEDyBu4PYXrnoqJA0HZq8tKFZMojRzdG5LaOOnfjxSjKh41/Y vHUbAwDOFaBeevkB6Zdt9ZDYHaNc1Uf9hAwvnh6WSF/QzoP9JivnPHby0XvCR4H+Uqou y6+P/NzCggeWS6Gqi7J1ORVw/1DptCW8bQ3HHTTGTxcinjW7Byhmw+/G/v7uyyYTy4AO Ap1p5wlcjG2aiPPk4nxZIQDMwtsYxfgdpDFIZxlsQlMcbd2TnUjY2QKK6nRyUZ6KI8B0 6vsg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ITJkA6CdJbKsdTI9/qHoEbb2tGU1Br7LaCVaMGMgtiA=; b=cxq81ueiVb0I1W/gjYm8oiBZrUiZbcTfOzjYqn8PumEmNfrXlKiVsFESypDSoNQyBM 37Qd27y3higUfkZb2IMFMZYFkvsMx2Ekp8k1SpHTZAfxfgnD987nlBdc6GlmRiNefH2m ivxHzVNFQ+cCUYXuLvCvtXqwf5VJC3mH2y0xAOLDQ4FJDuPuNlLavdM8FxerlxbUo1X5 KmDDOD3ZbIiG+R0BsttLcA2G+6NTfnTN3OsNbw4xtxje4xiTFlLG5YtJiD1yIczy55Zt fHQBFkmBXrQ+AW2LXnu+5MYH+PInDTgaijX5rjU0Ys5jtMs3wDaud9XmwY2jKNI34O0V dHOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC026Lt4AgzS+iMZq2KFXTuLnByLpWydbUOS/kLGTogRpvZ7Mre1/9065o+Yv2XPnWYPrmAtDTuEeuQVnJQ== X-Received: by 10.107.132.74 with SMTP id g71mr1625721iod.19.1479366903508; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:15:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.3.163 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:14:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2987c727-52fd-b43d-8c5d-d56bd43d6332@gmail.com> References: <76891d2b-a1b5-e8a0-a01d-616ddc68f490@gmail.com> <2987c727-52fd-b43d-8c5d-d56bd43d6332@gmail.com> From: Jen Linkova Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 08:14:43 +0100 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6-only wifi during IETF meetings? - expect higher energy consumption X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:15:05 -0000 On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 6:19 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >> ND is already here on the default ("IETF") SSID. >> So those people who are on the default SSID and are seeing ND + ARP >> currently, >> will see just ND if/when the default SSID becomes IPv6-only. > > Ah I see. So it may be that currently the computers on SSID see too much > traffic (both ND and ARP) and may draw them more battery than if they only > saw one. Exactly. Oh, have we just concluded that running v6-only might improve users experience? ;) >>>>> I am asking because we performed some measurements on a recent >>>>> smartphone comparing various Internet usage (youtube, real-time, >>>>> web browsing, ftp, etc.) and we seemed to find that IPv6 draws >>>>> around 5% more energy from the battery than IPv4. That was on >>>>> cellular, maybe wifi is different... >> Anyway I could not comment on your 5% results w/o knowing more on your >> testing/measuring methodology... > > > I agree, I will have to put the numbers and the testing conditions in a > draft. Well, if we assume that 1) battery usage is linearly proportional to bytes transmitted 2) average packet size is ~500 bytes (disclaimer: both statements might be found questionable), then, as for each packet v6 would add 20 more bytes (20 bytes v4 header vs 40 bytes v6 header), those 20 bytes would give those 5% of 500 bytes...(credits for such calculations go to a colleague of mine who is not on this list ;) -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Wed Nov 16 23:19:09 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E503912961F for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:18:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.197 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.197 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pDZmYex_JP-a for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:18:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-it0-x236.google.com (mail-it0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C2FB1295C2 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:18:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-it0-x236.google.com with SMTP id y23so27300469itc.0 for ; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:18:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TPuYmPGIQob2VYJaQvIncQcrmxlJFhHvormjMKUxi/E=; b=RYdiJKoxHPB3F/LAIRcYiljChhp45/ULLSeF4f2gSi5CnLNuPavRst0HVQRP8iB6A9 8FXxQqTv2BE9x9E1gr7YUnhOTLV+GpU/vIQ9bxOfgvMcawqa1GUaK0LXozN/fcbbeMow VPILifNIGtUt0WGaW67q/HLk+Av4Y70sIIchtzbCYS4z+aUkjVLP4fwJBRUkkNyN2XoU O02P/is2sjEjDBGr2HEDJxl1QpoILeDz3crxSxXfaAbDqP7KhjjWFFY7G9GSwsnCc51c 1AkLl1waaf+s/Hxgaqw+IsEmKOynmPMeubIgBV45XZiHjjAsc6Tl0VvASefi9r9VM/Tm uHAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TPuYmPGIQob2VYJaQvIncQcrmxlJFhHvormjMKUxi/E=; b=QHn70rPCrVBjjkHDkMvkadc6/5X6EIsyWkX+sur0wUVGXmosH1l/jr5U0BvdXj2VKZ dZ2UFWOlj4vXXnzheTsWnmAajf1WEq7xmZj1WLewbstbyFLFRWffnz42nr0jfoOjAI7z XcYB2MKjY+cxnVtvMfTN9/xAqEPB04r94EKm0Vu+L7wTzIR0ZfP4w33ir5v2roHWnw2Q xT2Q1ZDk6hIU1FMNSRw6lGAbE2U4vTUIHAU5DpJWHBRm+SLyA8KIRipYeqwSVNpPHeA2 uWj2VAMVyuMB/SbUMbEm1C3BhlCIeBy94AoGwG3CrelP95GDNA3lJGt3iqbB+pnRCx/S JKag== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC034Tkn++jUBTc+W7jwa+e4QwIliEmNk8Rp3ojSSOpB0vg/Oj7NIw80kHyfyJfwr+isrgzOxpBUM1GiZM1Tp X-Received: by 10.107.128.194 with SMTP id k63mr1692253ioi.223.1479367112573; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:18:32 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.64.138.71 with HTTP; Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:18:12 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <56c708a9-575d-d65f-eb3e-1d926bff2e29@jvknet.com> References: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <283B39A2-3AB1-4DD0-B3C0-8606C7A9E049@jisc.ac.uk> <21849F52-7A33-4CDC-B215-0EDFD0D5E8DF@jisc.ac.uk> <1D7FFA4A-4B01-4DF9-B5BB-0B08A3542452@magma.ca> <56c708a9-575d-d65f-eb3e-1d926bff2e29@jvknet.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 16:18:12 +0900 Message-ID: To: Victor Kuarsingh Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113fbb5a3d3319054179ff22 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list , Philip Matthews Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:18:44 -0000 --001a113fbb5a3d3319054179ff22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Victor Kuarsingh wrote: > Not sure I agree with this statement. Given that there is a difference in > expected behavior in various use cases, discussing it is relevant. In > designing multiple networks in the past, we considered the differences of > these address types each time. Such considerations occurred applying IPv6 > to Cable Access, Core networks, Mobile Core networks, Mobile RANs networks, > Video networks, Business Networks, Enterprise networks and data centers. > So that to me signifies relevance. > I still don't see how any of that applies to IP addresses assigned to routers, which is explicitly the only class of IP address discussed in this draft. --001a113fbb5a3d3319054179ff22 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= hu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Victor Kuarsingh <victor@jvknet.com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

Not sure I agree with this statement.=C2=A0 Given that there is a difference in expected behavior in various use cases, discussing it is relevant. In designing multiple networks in the past, we considered the differences of these address types each time.=C2=A0 Such considerations occurred applying IPv6 to Cable Access, Core networks, Mobile Core networks, Mobile RANs networks, Video networks, Business Networks, Enterprise networks and data centers.=C2= =A0 So that to me signifies relevance. =C2=A0

=
I still don't see how any of that applies to IP addresses assigned= to routers, which is explicitly the only class of IP address discussed in = this draft.
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banners=-,-,- X-VirusChecked: Checked Received: (qmail 49389 invoked from network); 17 Nov 2016 09:57:53 -0000 Received: from unknown (HELO smtpml01.ee.co.uk) (149.254.241.76) by server-2.tower-21.messagelabs.com with DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 encrypted SMTP; 17 Nov 2016 09:57:53 -0000 Received: from EEUKWV0940.EEAD.EEINT.CO.UK (Not Verified[10.246.209.217]) by smtpml01.ee.co.uk with Trustwave SEG (v7, 5, 6, 8438) id ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 09:57:40 +0000 Received: from UK31S005EXS02.EEAD.EEINT.CO.UK (Not Verified[10.246.208.27]) by EEUKWV0940.EEAD.EEINT.CO.UK with Trustwave SEG (v7, 3, 6, 7949) id ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 09:57:52 +0000 Received: from UK30S005EXS06.EEAD.EEINT.CO.UK ([fe80::314c:b96c:4a9a:8a79]) by UK31S005EXS02.EEAD.EEINT.CO.UK ([2002:1ef6:d01b::1ef6:d01b]) with mapi id 14.03.0279.002; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 09:57:52 +0000 From: "Heatley, Nick" To: Jen Linkova , Alexandre Petrescu Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IPv6-only wifi during IETF meetings? - expect higher energy consumption Thread-Index: AdJAuQ9bd43QBtebHUGrCtqMHlsmow== Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 09:57:51 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_jkbu2lh4ck0nfe92lu8l93ag1479376669220emailandroidcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6-only wifi during IETF meetings? - expect higher energy consumption X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 09:57:58 -0000 --_000_jkbu2lh4ck0nfe92lu8l93ag1479376669220emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SG93IGFib3V0LA0KQmF0dGVyeSB1c2FnZSAod2hpbGUgYWN0aXZlKSBwcm9wb3J0aW9uYWwgdG8g dGltZSBmb3IgdGhlIGFjdGl2ZSB0cmFuc2Zlci4NCkZvciB0Y3AgdGhlbiBSVFQgYWxzbyBwbGF5 cyBhIHBhcnQgKGkuZS4gaWYgdGhlIHY2IGNvbnRlbnQgY2FjaGUgaXMgdGhlIG90aGVyc2lkZSBv ZiB0aGUgd29ybGQgdGhlbiB0cmFuc2ZlciB0YWtlcyBsb25nZXIgYW5kIGJhdHRlcnkgd2lsbCBi ZSBpbXBhY3RlZCkNCg0KSW4gcmVhbCB3b3JsZCB0ZXN0cyB1c29uZyB0Y3AoaHR0cCkgaWYgdGhl IGNvYXJzZSB0Y3AgcGFyYW1ldGVycyBhcmUgbm90IHNpbWlsYXIgKHJ0dCwgbXNzIHdoaWNoIGlz IGltcGFjdGVkIGJ5IHBhY2tldCBoZWFkZXIgc2l6ZSBhcyB5b3Ugc2F5KSB0aGVuIGl0cyBub3Qg ZXhhY3RseSBhIGZhaXIgZmlnaHQsIGFuZCB0aGF0IGNhbiBiZSBhIHByb2JsZW0gdXNpbmcgaW50 ZXJuZXQgbmV0d29ya3MuDQpCZXN0IHRvIGRvIGl0IGluIGEgbGFiLg0KV291bGQgd2VsY29tZSBh IHdoaXRlcGFwZXIgb24gdGhpcyBvZiBjb3Vyc2UuIE5pY2sNCg0KDQpTZW50IGZyb20gbXkgU2Ft c3VuZyBHYWxheHkgc21hcnRwaG9uZS4NCg0KLS0tLS0tLS0gT3JpZ2luYWwgbWVzc2FnZSAtLS0t LS0tLQ0KRnJvbTogSmVuIExpbmtvdmEgPGZ1cnJ5MTNAZ21haWwuY29tPg0KRGF0ZTogMTcvMTEv MjAxNiAwNzoxNSAoR01UKzAwOjAwKQ0KVG86IEFsZXhhbmRyZSBQZXRyZXNjdSA8YWxleGFuZHJl LnBldHJlc2N1QGdtYWlsLmNvbT4NCkNjOiB2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFt2 Nm9wc10gSVB2Ni1vbmx5IHdpZmkgZHVyaW5nIElFVEYgbWVldGluZ3M/IC0gZXhwZWN0IGhpZ2hl ciBlbmVyZ3kgY29uc3VtcHRpb24NCg0KV2VsbCwgaWYgd2UgYXNzdW1lIHRoYXQNCjEpIGJhdHRl cnkgdXNhZ2UgaXMgbGluZWFybHkgcHJvcG9ydGlvbmFsIHRvICBieXRlcyB0cmFuc21pdHRlZA0K MikgYXZlcmFnZSBwYWNrZXQgc2l6ZSBpcyB+NTAwIGJ5dGVzDQooZGlzY2xhaW1lcjogYm90aCBz dGF0ZW1lbnRzIG1pZ2h0IGJlIGZvdW5kIHF1ZXN0aW9uYWJsZSksDQp0aGVuLCBhcyBmb3IgZWFj aCBwYWNrZXQgdjYgd291bGQgYWRkIDIwIG1vcmUgYnl0ZXMgKDIwIGJ5dGVzIHY0DQpoZWFkZXIg dnMgNDAgYnl0ZXMgdjYgaGVhZGVyKSwgdGhvc2UgMjAgYnl0ZXMgd291bGQgZ2l2ZQ0KdGhvc2Ug NSUgb2YgNTAwIGJ5dGVzLi4uKGNyZWRpdHMgZm9yIHN1Y2ggY2FsY3VsYXRpb25zIGdvIHRvIGEN CmNvbGxlYWd1ZSBvZiBtaW5lIHdobyBpcyBub3Qgb24gdGhpcyBsaXN0IDspDQoNCi0tDQpTWSwg SmVuIExpbmtvdmEgYWthIEZ1cnJ5DQoNCl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQp2Nm9wcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCnY2b3BzQGlldGYub3JnDQpodHRw czovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQoNCk5PVElDRSBBTkQgRElT Q0xBSU1FUg0KVGhpcyBlbWFpbCBjb250YWlucyBCVCBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiwgd2hpY2ggbWF5IGJl IHByaXZpbGVnZWQgb3IgY29uZmlkZW50aWFsLiBJdCdzIG1lYW50IG9ubHkgZm9yIHRoZSBpbmRp dmlkdWFsKHMpIG9yIGVudGl0eSBuYW1lZCBhYm92ZS4gDQpJZiB5b3UncmUgbm90IHRoZSBpbnRl bmRlZCByZWNpcGllbnQsIG5vdGUgdGhhdCBkaXNjbG9zaW5nLCBjb3B5aW5nLCBkaXN0cmlidXRp bmcgb3IgdXNpbmcgdGhpcyBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiBpcyBwcm9oaWJpdGVkLiANCklmIHlvdSd2ZSBy ZWNlaXZlZCB0aGlzIGVtYWlsIGluIGVycm9yLCBwbGVhc2UgbGV0IG1lIGtub3cgaW1tZWRpYXRl bHkgb24gdGhlIGVtYWlsIGFkZHJlc3MgYWJvdmUuIFRoYW5rIHlvdS4NCg0KV2UgbW9uaXRvciBv dXIgZW1haWwgc3lzdGVtLCBhbmQgbWF5IHJlY29yZCB5b3VyIGVtYWlscy4NCg0KRUUgTGltaXRl ZCANClJlZ2lzdGVyZWQgb2ZmaWNlOlRyaWRlbnQgUGxhY2UsIE1vc3F1aXRvIFdheSwgSGF0Zmll bGQsIEhlcnRmb3Jkc2hpcmUsIEFMMTAgOUJXDQpSZWdpc3RlcmVkIGluIEVuZ2xhbmQgbm86IDAy MzgyMTYxDQoNCkVFIExpbWl0ZWQgaXMgYSB3aG9sbHkgb3duZWQgc3Vic2lkaWFyeSBvZjoNCg0K QnJpdGlzaCBUZWxlY29tbXVuaWNhdGlvbnMgcGxjDQpSZWdpc3RlcmVkIG9mZmljZTogODEgTmV3 Z2F0ZSBTdHJlZXQgTG9uZG9uIEVDMUEgN0FKDQpSZWdpc3RlcmVkIGluIEVuZ2xhbmQgbm86IDE4 MDAwMDANCg== --_000_jkbu2lh4ck0nfe92lu8l93ag1479376669220emailandroidcom_ Content-Type: text/html; 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Thu, 17 Nov 2016 02:39:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.43.210] ([105.132.177.192]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j6sm2522106wjk.25.2016.11.17.02.39.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 17 Nov 2016 02:39:25 -0800 (PST) From: Nabil BENAMAR Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_36E8259A-ABD0-490C-96C1-5F225A542B1C" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.1 \(3251\)) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 10:39:23 +0000 In-Reply-To: <76891d2b-a1b5-e8a0-a01d-616ddc68f490@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu References: <76891d2b-a1b5-e8a0-a01d-616ddc68f490@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] IPv6-only wifi during IETF meetings? - expect higher energy consumption X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 10:39:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_36E8259A-ABD0-490C-96C1-5F225A542B1C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Alex, Best Regards, Nabil=20 > On Nov 17, 2016, at 1:40 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > Le 16/11/2016 =C3=A0 22:42, Jen Linkova a =C3=A9crit : >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 11:21 AM, Alexandre Petrescu >> wrote: >>> During today's Plenary there was discussion about making IPv6 only >>> wifi during some IETF meeting. >>>=20 >>> If so, I was wondering whether people will perceive a larger >>> battery drain in their devices? >>=20 >> Why? The current 'default' SSID (ietf) is dual-stack. If you switch >> to v6-only SSID, then you get rid of IPv4 and, as a result, ARP noise >> etc. >=20 > Jen, I can understand the v6-only SSID at IETF will not have any ARP = on > it. But it would have some ND instead, right? Obviously=E2=80=A6.ARP is not used anymore in IPv6 networks! ND is part = of IPv6 processes (RA,RS, NA, NS, etc=E2=80=A6) >=20 >>> I am asking because we performed some measurements on a recent >>> smartphone comparing various Internet usage (youtube, real-time, >>> web browsing, ftp, etc.) and we seemed to find that IPv6 draws >>> around 5% more energy from the battery than IPv4. That was on >>> cellular, maybe wifi is different... >>=20 >> So you compared v4-only connectivity to v6-only? Or dual-stack to >> v6-only? >=20 > I do not know what you mean by 'dual-stack'? There were two stacks in > this smartphone: an IPv4 stack and an IPv6 stack. The wireshark dumps > show only IPv4 traffic when testing IPv4 and only IPv6-traffic when > testing IPv6. Dual-stack means that you have both IPv4 and IPv6 addresses for your = wifi interface. I think that your setup is the most correct one, because = it will test ipv6 only vs ipv4 only. In dual-stack environment, the = results will be different and related to the application measured: = happy-eyeballs implemented or not, etc=E2=80=A6. >=20 > The smartphone is connected to an IPv6-only cellular APN when testing > IPv6 and to an IPv4-only APN when testing IPv4. >=20 > I suppose this is the right way to test IPv4 vs IPv6. >=20 >> Anyway you can always try yourself - use 'ietf' ssid for one day and >> ietf-nat64 for another ;) I do not think that ietf-nat64 will be convenient for this study ! >=20 > I have a big problem with both 'ietf' and 'ietf-nat64' SSIDs at IETF > since multiple IETF meetings now. >=20 > My recent Windows laptop does not want to connect to any of these two = - > it complains about some certificate matters. >=20 > For this reason I only use ietf-legacy while at IETF. >=20 > (and yes I asked both IETF network operators and my IT - they blame = each > other) >=20 >> My phone has been connected to ietf-nat64 the whole week, I have not >> noticed any battery issues so far. >=20 > Well yes, I can understand that. But I am not expecting spectacular > things like 50% more battery drain. >=20 > The measured approx 5% more power consumption could be noticed in some > extreme situation. One would have to bring that smartphone close to = the > battery exhaustion limit, and be in a place without recharge > possibility. In this situation a user would turn off WiFi, GPS, > inertial sensor, dim the screen, stop some apps, and... prefer IPv4. >=20 > Alex >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --Apple-Mail=_36E8259A-ABD0-490C-96C1-5F225A542B1C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi Alex,



Best Regards,
Nabil 
=

On Nov 17, 2016, at 1:40 AM, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:



Le 16/11/2016 =C3=A0 22:42, Jen Linkova a = =C3=A9crit :
On Wed, = Nov 16, 2016 at 11:21 AM, Alexandre Petrescu
<alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
During today's Plenary = there was discussion about making IPv6 only
wifi during = some IETF meeting.

If so, I was wondering = whether people will perceive a larger
battery drain in = their devices?

Why? The = current 'default' SSID (ietf) is dual-stack. If you switch
to v6-only SSID, then you get rid of IPv4 and, as a result, = ARP noise
etc.

Jen, I can understand the v6-only SSID at IETF will not have = any ARP on
it.  But it would have some ND instead, = right?

Obviously=E2=80=A6.ARP is not used anymore in IPv6 = networks! ND is part of IPv6 processes (RA,RS, NA, NS, etc=E2=80=A6)

I am asking because we performed some = measurements on a recent
smartphone comparing various = Internet usage (youtube, real-time,
web browsing, ftp, = etc.) and we seemed to find that IPv6 draws
around 5% more = energy from the battery than IPv4.  That was on
cellular, maybe wifi is different...

So you compared v4-only = connectivity to v6-only? Or dual-stack to
v6-only?

I do not know what you mean by = 'dual-stack'?  There were two stacks in
this = smartphone: an IPv4 stack and an IPv6 stack.  The wireshark = dumps
show only IPv4 traffic when testing IPv4 and only = IPv6-traffic when
testing IPv6.

Dual-stack = means that you have both IPv4 and IPv6 addresses for your wifi = interface. I think that your setup is the most correct one, because it = will test ipv6 only vs ipv4 only. In dual-stack environment, the results = will be different and related to the application measured: = happy-eyeballs implemented or not, etc=E2=80=A6.

The smartphone is connected to an IPv6-only cellular APN when = testing
IPv6 and to an IPv4-only APN when testing IPv4.

I suppose this is the right way to test IPv4 = vs IPv6.

Anyway you can always try yourself - use 'ietf' ssid for one = day and
ietf-nat64 for another ;)

I do not think that ietf-nat64 will be convenient for = this study !

I have a big problem with both = 'ietf' and 'ietf-nat64' SSIDs at IETF
since multiple IETF = meetings now.

My recent Windows laptop does = not want to connect to any of these two -
it complains = about some certificate matters.

For this = reason I only use ietf-legacy while at IETF.

(and yes I asked both IETF network operators and my IT - they = blame each
other)

My phone has been connected to ietf-nat64 the = whole week, I have not
noticed any battery issues so = far.

Well yes, I can = understand that.  But I am not expecting spectacular
things like 50% more battery drain.

The measured approx 5% more power consumption could be = noticed in some
extreme situation.  One would have to = bring that smartphone close to the
battery exhaustion = limit, and be in a place without recharge
possibility. =  In this situation a user would turn off WiFi, GPS,
inertial sensor, dim the screen, stop some apps, and... = prefer IPv4.

Alex

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

= --Apple-Mail=_36E8259A-ABD0-490C-96C1-5F225A542B1C-- From nobody Thu Nov 17 11:30:15 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E260A12940B for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 11:30:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eQbeHjgrGx0G for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 11:30:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x244.google.com (mail-pf0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C269129499 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 11:30:11 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x244.google.com with SMTP id y68so12071500pfb.1 for ; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 11:30:11 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=kukr97vPyxeB0il6UNRcKDMgBrd1V0mwz04fM/09puQ=; b=fuy07h55OVrMiA0HIQtsnjphgLvD0VqzRJlMk5jWSKMqhTw8KzuzTGBPOTuewUq1Nq YiwYFAk3yksjGoG5JGztWu7k1Vf3J7XDziKsm7BoCcWkxCYbX5gL1+jzQkW8rbIxQLlc K6esh8USkWVTU1BpOP2rkB33IKPjxz6SSXpX54MbukZv1Jv2tzDSXRg9+wCwr0PyKRxl yAV3mL649JBQL8rgRjdrwTWkNeenqhiHkd2zRFRQX+fE6y8Ikz93QLZcw9FaurV0PwT+ thVZaixJHCqX5tgLWtGylMqxoQr1bhDT3AIbJ/y3NOrwfn3W68IH4JgbgyqbbkUCey6S eLIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kukr97vPyxeB0il6UNRcKDMgBrd1V0mwz04fM/09puQ=; b=Of41rMSe29VYI6OIX0LKQB7k7p/g1gYmmr+XWyifqt+BV24c5jesmyiay/f9GfL7jK P+fkJHmLPB4MLXNNRfT/TXZjiD4QAiRwkJcYxrfZSa9t8k/VzuB3/Nziy7YdjV8I/F23 2mY+eXu+BGD4g8WKPkbFL0zKyeqALy/XgezdqXvB7yF/DPY0BZIi4csOpIkUXXFkLIlk g5lIWm+KLXzher+W09e2YU2KTx5u6o5mWobWfsB+EFOoLhYAwEUsprg4u/+pckEnQEgx XKcysUrre/dH/N4FG8I7d1OAdTd/yraaQj56MO8HpoZ+uNs7BA7smLXmkbsYmA1rzun6 CrXQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ABUngveAGMEJXeu7gPg81eNSeLvGqIliyFdj/nbHfEP/4P+EGt9NnXoEPhyRdvkkb+2nWA== X-Received: by 10.98.139.72 with SMTP id j69mr6712843pfe.158.1479411010732; Thu, 17 Nov 2016 11:30:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.23] (117.228.69.111.dynamic.snap.net.nz. [111.69.228.117]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 65sm9388195pfl.21.2016.11.17.11.30.07 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 17 Nov 2016 11:30:09 -0800 (PST) To: Lorenzo Colitti , Victor Kuarsingh References: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <283B39A2-3AB1-4DD0-B3C0-8606C7A9E049@jisc.ac.uk> <21849F52-7A33-4CDC-B215-0EDFD0D5E8DF@jisc.ac.uk> <1D7FFA4A-4B01-4DF9-B5BB-0B08A3542452@magma.ca> <56c708a9-575d-d65f-eb3e-1d926bff2e29@jvknet.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 08:30:13 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list , Philip Matthews Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 19:30:14 -0000 On 17/11/2016 20:18, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Victor Kuarsingh wrote: > >> Not sure I agree with this statement. Given that there is a difference in >> expected behavior in various use cases, discussing it is relevant. In >> designing multiple networks in the past, we considered the differences of >> these address types each time. Such considerations occurred applying IPv6 >> to Cable Access, Core networks, Mobile Core networks, Mobile RANs networks, >> Video networks, Business Networks, Enterprise networks and data centers. >> So that to me signifies relevance. >> > I still don't see how any of that applies to IP addresses assigned to > routers, which is explicitly the only class of IP address discussed in this > draft. ULA vs GUA for routers does impact what people outside your network can learn from traceroute results, I guess. But in general, the connection is that an operator is likely to choose a router addressing policy that is a subset of the overall addressing policy. (I can't think of any reason that would be a requirement, however. On the other, address *stability* for routers might be a requirement, which would suggest ULA or PI, even if you use PA for hosts.) Brian From nobody Tue Nov 22 07:29:58 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3E20129688 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 07:29:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=jvknet-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aj79Yw8pPy-5 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 07:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qt0-x229.google.com (mail-qt0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 121B112967D for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 07:29:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qt0-x229.google.com with SMTP id w33so13635903qtc.3 for ; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 07:29:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jvknet-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=8kPKNRmr7lNaka7iDPb06FuhQztAEOrP5SSM2Lss6Jg=; b=xOf46uyskJ7S0Ru4vnqmBZw3sIz0IYo2N8g5/WvgCC0NDxuB9KX4nbjgq7UzmdFExc m03jrpcYDA5afTe26rY845wZnOjo4BuPV19VeoUdjLbqxD/1TtF5ePrQnsqKJ9/0Epiu FPd/DIMu2lI64evNTUIMy81xekjolVccTiYhH3rP506/oYgAu52jrQbkDkNuuHpwqqCH i61mAdFg5GNih2t5kfx/ODAGcTpa0j7eDklWMnUj3NagEp+VWJlSHsUXEuGLUwb3h7p0 JGsQobFYE0VCaEuUhrXSZHUc9+P6uChBmWrCfO+oB/IpcJJbSxjH7ajsSeRs9ELNgQSc A/0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=8kPKNRmr7lNaka7iDPb06FuhQztAEOrP5SSM2Lss6Jg=; b=SEgtRHpBrsJp/i+rvpNhNH6wCDiD2uETvxszXHNj/w0eYXG9xrHWkFXEc6fnAa6G7R kaNS57MmP8Pyfw4Xe/7Sp01BbxKxlHG3pNImb8giol0hcOe838dsjVDomrZCdN+J/tx3 rfr1y2msNRtaCalAuDfcio/dfM0GIjEPue5n2AnbLmc6Ly6Li6LLW9FdmCx7DKYGkbL8 XmFyzceyQxLn2c2rcLhc2tlxlad97ftIXTWbUXNrD+uO5x5w65Vz65AAMAf0R43cUe0R 6r8jOe1MkDOfH2z8VNNuPhy0oRN12AUeLnhfteA8OJdmC8BQ2ux66N+fhTlsYULbxyCk 7PJA== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC028HoDn15hQAUudw44Ps6EYosEIJ8fKrBjp7tQwu3IVfnATKB/y7NO4mKKYQ7OwFg== X-Received: by 10.200.49.92 with SMTP id h28mr200343qtb.215.1479828592809; Tue, 22 Nov 2016 07:29:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.132.40.127] ([173.38.117.91]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h46sm13919359qta.35.2016.11.22.07.29.51 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Nov 2016 07:29:52 -0800 (PST) To: Lorenzo Colitti References: <147905953331.5496.9393489773708466371.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <283B39A2-3AB1-4DD0-B3C0-8606C7A9E049@jisc.ac.uk> <21849F52-7A33-4CDC-B215-0EDFD0D5E8DF@jisc.ac.uk> <1D7FFA4A-4B01-4DF9-B5BB-0B08A3542452@magma.ca> <56c708a9-575d-d65f-eb3e-1d926bff2e29@jvknet.com> From: Victor Kuarsingh Message-ID: <734c60a2-23d1-5911-1d19-e34988042160@jvknet.com> Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 10:29:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B6237E8B7C6437DE64E920D0" Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list , Philip Matthews Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices-12.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 15:29:56 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B6237E8B7C6437DE64E920D0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2016-11-17 2:18 AM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Victor Kuarsingh > wrote: > > Not sure I agree with this statement. Given that there is a > difference in expected behavior in various use cases, discussing > it is relevant. In designing multiple networks in the past, we > considered the differences of these address types each time. Such > considerations occurred applying IPv6 to Cable Access, Core > networks, Mobile Core networks, Mobile RANs networks, Video > networks, Business Networks, Enterprise networks and data > centers. So that to me signifies relevance. > > I still don't see how any of that applies to IP addresses assigned to > routers, which is explicitly the only class of IP address discussed in > this draft. All of these networks have routers, which need IP addresses. I don't think there is a clear default answer, so the designer needs to choose addresses from the types available. Given there is more then one option, I don't see how it's not relevant. Is there harm in providing a clear set of options to the designers? To me, providing information to a designer is helpful. They can chose what they need/want. regards, Victor K --------------B6237E8B7C6437DE64E920D0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 2016-11-17 2:18 AM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:
On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:06 PM, Victor Kuarsingh <victor@jvknet.com> wrote:

Not sure I agree with this statement.  Given that there is a difference in expected behavior in various use cases, discussing it is relevant. In designing multiple networks in the past, we considered the differences of these address types each time.  Such considerations occurred applying IPv6 to Cable Access, Core networks, Mobile Core networks, Mobile RANs networks, Video networks, Business Networks, Enterprise networks and data centers.  So that to me signifies relevance.  

I still don't see how any of that applies to IP addresses assigned to routers, which is explicitly the only class of IP address discussed in this draft.

All of these networks have routers, which need IP addresses.  I don't think there is a clear default answer, so the designer needs to choose addresses from the types available.  Given there is more then one option, I don't see how it's not relevant.

Is there harm in providing a clear set of options to the designers?  To me, providing information to a designer is helpful.  They can chose what they need/want.

regards,

Victor K

--------------B6237E8B7C6437DE64E920D0-- From nobody Sun Nov 27 09:08:28 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 066C1129424 for ; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 09:08:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.397 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.397 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-1.497] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lY5iJwViCo6O for ; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 09:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from calypso.otenet.gr (calypso.otenet.gr [83.235.67.36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98873127071 for ; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 09:08:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.21] (dusted.otenet.gr [195.167.126.245]) by calypso.otenet.gr (ESMTP) with ESMTPSA id 9155F13804D; Sun, 27 Nov 2016 19:08:19 +0200 (EET) To: "STARK, BARBARA H" , "jordi.palet@consulintel.es" , "krun.shah@gmail.com" References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> From: Yannis Nikolopoulos Message-ID: <54fb4b5d-5cf3-cb0b-34b9-fb2551fa218f@otenet.gr> Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 19:08:13 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.4.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DA341D8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] do we need to update RFC7084 ? - Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 17:08:28 -0000 Hello, RFC 7084 (and 6204 before that) was used by us (ISPs) to push vendors to implement IPv6 deployment-related features. Before that, every ISP would write down their own specs, with various degrees of success. So, 7084 was and still is a very good thing! Now, as an ISP deploying (not thinking about, actually deploying as we speak) lw4o6 to potentially 1.5M users, I'd really prefer if 7084 included lw4o6/MAP etc, not so much for my ISP, but for others that are still considering their options. I really see no reason whatsoever, for not updating 7084 (and also keeping existing transition technologies in place). BTW, lw4o6 support is mandatory in our CPE tenders (and so it is for the rest of DT group AFAIK) cheers, Yannis On 11/04/2016 09:09 PM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: >> When this document was published, the IPv4 situation was different that >> the actual one. >> >> Many ISPs could have deployed IPv6 using dual stack, or 6rd. >> >> Also, lw6over4 was not available, same as other protocols such as MAP, or >> 464XLAT, or there was no sufficient experience with them. >> >> Now the situation is totally different, and ISPs will need to provide IPv6 >> service-only in the access link, instead of 6in4 based mechanisms, unless they >> opt for dual-stack with CGN. >> >> So my question is: should this document be updated to reflect the new >> situation, so to provide a better guidance to both the ISPs and the vendors? > RFC 7084 was never intended as advice to ISPs. It was intended as advice from ISPs to vendors of retail CE Routers. Along the lines of: > Given IPv6 access network architectures ISPs have documented in CableLabs and Broadband Forum (BBF), here is a set of common requirements for a retail CE Router that can be used to connect to either of those types of access networks. > > If there is more than one ISP who is seriously committed to deploying one of the technologies you list (not just studying or thinking about it), and they want to extend RFC 7084, they should come forward. But I don't think it should be extended for any technology that doesn't have a real deployment commitment from multiple providers. I was very disappointed that some European ISPs pushed really hard to get DS Lite documented in BBF and RFC 7084, and then did nothing with that technology. CE Router vendors should not be asked to expend their scarce resources in support of experimental technologies. Experiments can be done with OpenWRT types of firmware. RFC 7084 extension needs to be done only for widely deployed technologies. > > BTW, we also stayed away from 3GPP access architectures, because there was no participation from 3GPP ISPs. The ISPs doing widespread deployment must be involved in providing the advice. > Barbara > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Tue Nov 29 20:36:46 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7901E1294B7; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 20:36:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p7AKIkNHgPK4; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 20:36:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from usplmg20.ericsson.net (usplmg20.ericsson.net [198.24.6.45]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EEFF2129D28; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 20:36:20 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: c618062d-aa3ff70000007359-5e-583e5c18aa9f Received: from EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se (Unknown_Domain [147.117.188.87]) by (Symantec Mail Security) with SMTP id 92.8F.29529.91C5E385; Wed, 30 Nov 2016 05:56:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from EUSAAMB107.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.124]) by EUSAAHC005.ericsson.se ([147.117.188.87]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Tue, 29 Nov 2016 23:36:17 -0500 From: Suresh Krishnan To: Internet Area , 6man , v6ops Thread-Topic: AD sponsoring draft-bchv-rfc6890bis-02 Thread-Index: AdJKw0nbLx+aAf25QaqCKxBxVpJ00A== Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 04:36:17 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [147.117.188.11] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFjrNLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUyuXRPuK50jF2EwYZZohY3Zt1ksXh59j2T xelje5kdmD2WLPnJFMAYxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJVx/+k91oI+1opL/buZGhj7WboYOTkkBEwk lu+AsIUE1jNKLDuc2cXIBWQvZ5S4+vIPG0iCDahow87PTCC2iECoxPbNG5hBbGEBfYnpa1ey QcRNJB68Pc4KYetJ/Dx2mB3EZhFQlZj7eyvYAl4BX4mp59rAehkFxCS+n1oDNpNZQFzi1pP5 TBAHCUgs2XOeGcIWlXj5+B8rhK0k8fH3fHaIeh2JBbs/sUHY2hLLFr5mhpgvKHFy5hOWCYxC s5CMnYWkZRaSlllIWhYwsqxi5CgtLsjJTTcy2MQIDOJjEmy6OxjvT/c8xCjAwajEw/thum2E EGtiWXFl7iFGCQ5mJRHe0mC7CCHelMTKqtSi/Pii0pzU4kOM0hwsSuK8cavvhwsJpCeWpGan phakFsFkmTg4pRoYq5cGraqxuW3XeGzVxraFLGtq0tfsyuRI3x3gs8fi8rVFNzdVHHjwtnJC t25k5dN/UTfyDJNP1jz//CT08ouMxsMsrTt3iD40mlSz2Ufz8K80ab1THvc2fY9YZRgRwNMx Ketyb/bKHy1xqW4W8pH1IVaP+UyOPG4u3lIUaLt7hqXt4Z9v76c5KbEUZyQaajEXFScCAKGk aO5eAgAA Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] AD sponsoring draft-bchv-rfc6890bis-02 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 04:36:34 -0000 Hi all,=0A= I am considering AD sponsoring the following draft=0A= =0A= https://tools.ietf.org/html/ draft-bchv-rfc6890bis-02=0A= =0A= This draft updates RFC6890 that was published as an AD sponsored document = =0A= through the Internet area. If you have any concerns either with the content= =0A= of the draft or with me progressing it as an AD sponsored document please l= et =0A= me know before 2016/12/14.=0A= =0A= Thanks=0A= Suresh=0A= =0A= NOTE: I have CCed: all the WGs that I thought could be potentially interest= ed =0A= in this work. If you think I have missed out any WG(s) please let me =0A= know/forward.=0A= =0A= From nobody Wed Nov 30 10:00:42 2016 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C14021298BF; Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:00:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.1 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.1 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CMP3QmQ5kzjd; Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:00:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wj0-x242.google.com (mail-wj0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c01::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FBE9129570; Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:00:39 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wj0-x242.google.com with SMTP id jb2so23390458wjb.3; Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:00:39 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=Kg6aXc5hcldXFx3smoRZAjtC318IRkzWyOL5NsQQt9c=; b=Y0qrCSQfnJchXJgGFwMLTg+mHd1j4HM3D4Ca6kju5JSu4DDQFCbuPUbPgqeZ6uk28M 9ZIZWAcL23g6Vx/iPgNe9EI4xmzzc3vYR+XFICxvC++f3//oV9kIHS5zBXB6p/TsorI4 otuAs+krf8+8MMAls4gIJowQQTJyQebWWktUwXU1iESERb2NpLGn+1+yunayhqwp5VES O3mw0SDdh7TxgWLO75RLvwNYMXcyGMp/FyPkK79EZwvSCSaglk8fL9Qg5Aaujj4BylYj dxnFRKwskMZwO851TNtRRH/SKVJ4LkwC2wxZUMpl87rnovCCEPzvYbin2bXb8K+Xzegf FYdQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=Kg6aXc5hcldXFx3smoRZAjtC318IRkzWyOL5NsQQt9c=; b=ZcMArnskMqBehHWQeeoN8iowKxwWboVPEoRCjezsWzQjnCrEcEJ/o9ug8oW1Q6rzx/ yXAbU9fWvSFvunNCaEuuRCS+Inx5hH82nKvW7KL1jwTesp1KOcw9cstj3DWie7fdFL1Y 6Sykvv82kZZx6WHDNR+rOnmWgkeUHrkgxLQHVVRMrV+ie7dkSJ/+4iRa5c8jauQsIudl tz+h6BlfvLCixE0NSB0pdT/YDzjlAJkeGyGLJP1iVVVRD0G7sRQPjVn0y0xdfg3C3/ba RnpQ0+PanfE7plY66tYe38s6TPgxGQXifYMTTlWVdldIepjMnl3uoLLjeUZz6nUIMtvS KOmw== X-Gm-Message-State: AKaTC01QMRaLqVfu/yK0JhKREvnKa5r/zQZe9MBgMLemW0r8dHrVXFI1hzxDsTZW5/FScw== X-Received: by 10.194.149.143 with SMTP id ua15mr35146835wjb.48.1480528837814; Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:00:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.0.23] (c-71-202-18-198.hsd1.ca.comcast.net. [71.202.18.198]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x140sm9112389wme.19.2016.11.30.10.00.35 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:00:37 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B0430710-33E7-4710-9B54-62CFA3757C8A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2104\)) From: Bob Hinden In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:00:10 -0800 Message-Id: <0CC5E9EB-7A1C-41B7-9F75-9A04D6681F7E@gmail.com> References: To: Suresh Krishnan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2104) Archived-At: Cc: Internet Area , v6ops , IPv6 List Subject: Re: [v6ops] [Int-area] AD sponsoring draft-bchv-rfc6890bis-02 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 18:00:42 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B0430710-33E7-4710-9B54-62CFA3757C8A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii This was discussed in the 6man session at IETF96. See: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/slides/slides-96-6man-4.pdf Minutes, audio, video: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/96/6man.html Bob > On Nov 29, 2016, at 8:36 PM, Suresh Krishnan = wrote: >=20 > Hi all, > I am considering AD sponsoring the following draft >=20 > https://tools.ietf.org/html/ draft-bchv-rfc6890bis-02 >=20 > This draft updates RFC6890 that was published as an AD sponsored = document > through the Internet area. If you have any concerns either with the = content > of the draft or with me progressing it as an AD sponsored document = please let > me know before 2016/12/14. >=20 > Thanks > Suresh >=20 > NOTE: I have CCed: all the WGs that I thought could be potentially = interested > in this work. If you think I have missed out any WG(s) please let me > know/forward. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > Int-area mailing list > Int-area@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/int-area --Apple-Mail=_B0430710-33E7-4710-9B54-62CFA3757C8A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJYPxOqAAoJEK7rdBF357uoM7MIAI7/7LHKKn3GoYtCLFR7AjnX 7yS0+rfSNx1svoB0yHOb48EGvpNQCb3tlIK1sTeMF56knyGqsZUdPeeIoJYycpOf WaldI1yR+c0kU+Z3/XXLfUAs0JxtXE16hvPwC+0/mQWrzOQvOPn3YLaA1ykWzqJC DPz+kJCHCpKjKd8BrxbxpFgFxc/3AWFjUMWdp/1j736exBDbCEQ823QhTIVUlyfU qlChe3x3SO3XRRAmt5ifoGQ2nIqLDLcH1BNXFCMKIwLX3MmrBuHBwz51k/r5Xwbv 8InnnPd6ouQOWqvaIGrZOu1hkQgd/ybvHnw9I/MgZ1i3UXuvarSW6WMYrdTnSFw= =T56B -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B0430710-33E7-4710-9B54-62CFA3757C8A--