From nobody Wed Mar 1 00:16:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B8A1294CC for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 00:16:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8gWLCxCDETfN for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 00:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7705B1294C9 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 00:16:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2017 08:16:00 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 691E0D788E; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 00:16:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=ATEU2afaXjFpt/wR89aDcepqxd4=; b= ht7nSf/sejSvZ2GXZxMbw+kMMx6FmaXFL0JCHHmPPuOrlHVprvQLK2yW8oXV0aw2 VxUzuPwok0B3Puc0pShQqzzyoJU6u0YwG6cZJ2nhNlvdMvKQXT31W8G2A/WLXlio NaVxM452J5UTKdfZiRLpNIpt2IiixQLOe4RrPdgVJHU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=PhAoNTWkDmesYcp7XwSlZX/ FncGMTVNw7ym3yy9FiK+NLYcwd1/InJ4DyfS+jyJd3cHjkAEiZZJjz1gaYc+IYGy J9NwyrOfWSPGiGe/kW4ffV4Ce5agaxZUJn0edUsf/YSj+56FIboyzrhMyZRTsOZn Fg6h+glBnRu0i7Z3vftE= Received: from h.hanazo.no (96.51-175-103.customer.lyse.net [51.175.103.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F09F8D788B; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 00:15:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD269165C8A; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 09:15:58 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6B9CEB76-2543-46BD-8E3E-AB45161F27ED"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 09:15:56 +0100 In-Reply-To: <49a10ca2-6d6c-4d92-fffb-902e20566d9d@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <2646FC7F-A008-4A5F-8D33-4607D306B8AE@google.com> <3e733fa0-744b-28d8-28d2-dbf3ace3c8b3@si6networks.com> <74EF0172-F021-4941-92EE-76D11C3F9401@employees.org> <49a10ca2-6d6c-4d92-fffb-902e20566d9d@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: Fernando Gont , IPv6 Operations , james woodyatt Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 08:16:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6B9CEB76-2543-46BD-8E3E-AB45161F27ED Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Brian, [...] >>> There's another closely related breakage, which is the absence of >>> default router signalling in DHCPv6. That means that even if a site >>> must use DHCPv6 for configuring stuff that RAs cannot configure, = they >>> must also use RAs for configuring stuff that DHCPv6 cannot = configure. >>>=20 >>> Something like bad systems design. >>=20 >> It's a failure of the IETF to have specified two ways of doing the = same thing. And now you are proposing that we should do even more of = that? >=20 > In the sense that two incomplete solutions are worse than two complete = solutions, > yes. I think the real goal is that a wide-enough set of functions = should be > covered by both solutions, and to my mind that should include both DNS = servers > and default routers. They are only incomplete if you redesign how they are supposed to work = after the fact. They are complementary, and there are very good reasons for that. An off-link DHCP server advertising a default router address wouldn't = even have IP reachability to the default router address. It has no = effective way of updating a host's default router nor deal with default = router failure. Fate sharing etc. We've been through these arguments so = many times I don't see any purpose in rehashing all of them. Let's not make the problem worse. In the principle of fate sharing, it is clear that the node offering the = service is the node advertising the service, and that it is directly = discovered by the host that consumes it. That's not the case for how = deal with DNS recursive resolver configuration today. Why do we assume = that the local network should even provide DNS configuration? Ole --Apple-Mail=_6B9CEB76-2543-46BD-8E3E-AB45161F27ED Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYtoM9AAoJEL7aWKiYQt92luIQAJQsSi42qlb17oyjJMVTjp6z 9HmISDg/mpsAUcbPEjEBjp3BPXMWQy2U3cy2K36pY92z54gGGxMP47KHwt5sZXuz am5Lm1TKVArWm7+GqZG09s+UbWhiVqFGuaFpKsKuNtA9UwdfXLpClETg9FfEFKsk lj/whEJ2VQBbpWFYV0EhcBvf1y07pF/i8jh388ma8v/dwNJrizUG0q0npQyCzq6z Zk09tcEiKX72Egd7AqFGM8NYpvpikbxvpdch6GBSiRdGnG0kSrHqMwKPIjT9O6pK pbyNkqw9GtmK719QAKPfE9lv+bzgKaxEl6ZB/MoITJgqFtzFpv9bwIFi8K9rY3qF 3arQpvGaxkwwSv5grHwCif1jQPnFllX7TDSzp0pF6kkh1LGd4Digl8DLkLqMEpEe ZcRAepV1iKGtrByGgvIK4jBK0AcmoenL+zlWB8EJV3BrvmoSmM1H62cYqOnFcQP4 TUQ4pFEMhyvGyST6cF096yiwwn8euBDh019XrpE4Ledpk/utqx/Vj5PdDd9imk3G wtQPjHv/5kUxyufw6fl4yosIiHoB8PIb7QDAGdRO8J97avFuF9fxqSRZ8LNP92pU lIuMFeXNO3PzxvjwjV17jxVwkORLPe4PBW1uhb8YNBKrCjMyUQ+rMEkxAuZZOgtA 6mXhOI7dwyQu+t5Pe4bK =p56y -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6B9CEB76-2543-46BD-8E3E-AB45161F27ED-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 00:57:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69B121294DA for ; 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Wed, 01 Mar 2017 00:57:42 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.38.2 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 00:57:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.159.38.2 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 00:57:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 19:57:41 +1100 Message-ID: To: David Schinazi Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114384ac5bb6810549a781a2 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 08:57:44 -0000 --001a114384ac5bb6810549a781a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 1 Mar. 2017 16:29, "David Schinazi" wrote: > On Feb 28, 2017, at 21:09, Fernando Gont wrote: > > COuld you please explain how this document would make that worse? By perpetuating coexistence of multiple solutions to the same problem. > This document is not about picking a winner in this religious battle. > Operators should evaluate what works better for them. > > What we want is for them to be able to make that choice, because > nowadays, they simple can't. It sounds like your document is designed to allow operators to pick what works best for them, by forcing mobile device manufacturers to implement both. Why don't device manufacturers get to pick which one is best for their users? Sounds like you're fighting another religious battle, and I don't think the IETF should pick a side. If the IETF care about IPv6 adoption, then we need to do something. That might sound overly dramatic. I don't think it is. Humans are involved. The problem is when there are two or more choices, that appear to be equal or near equal, then not making a choice becomes the least risky option, compared to the risk of making the wrong choice. Future wrong choice consequences are possibly worse than the current and future no choice consequences. What this resolves to in the current situation: (a) choose RA DNS options, with the risk that everybody else chooses DHCPv6 DNS (b) choose DHCPv6 DNS, with the risk that everybody else chooses RA DNS (c) don't deploy IPv6 until the popular DNS configuration option becomes clear. (c) is the safest option, and the result is less IPv6 deployment. My specific preference would be to get rid of RA DNS options and DHCPv6 IA options, so there is only one solution to these problems, and no need to be forced to make a possibly wrong choice. I doubt that is going to happen. The next best thing is what is in this draft. Make hosts, increasingly BYO, interoperable with whatever the network operator or system administrato has chosen (and we should recognise and accommodate their boldness, because we've forced them to be bold, and they have been, because they didn't choose (c)). Regards, Mark. David _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --001a114384ac5bb6810549a781a2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 1 Mar. 2017 16:29, "David Schinazi" <dschinazi@apple.com> wrote:

> On Feb 28, 2017, at 21:09, Fernando Gont <fgont@si6networks.com> wrote:
>
> COuld you please explain how this document would make that worse?

By perpetuating coexistence of multiple solutions to the same problem= .

> This document is not about picking a winner in this religious battle.<= br> > Operators should evaluate what works better for them.
>
> What we want is for them to be able to make that choice, because
> nowadays, they simple can't.

It sounds like your document is designed to allow operators to pick what works best for them, by forcing mobile device manufacturers
to implement both. Why don't device manufacturers get to pick
which one is best for their users?

Sounds like you're fighting another religious battle, and I don't think the IETF should pick a side.

If the IETF care about IPv6 adoptio= n, then we need to do something.

That might sound overly dramatic. I don't think it is. Humans= are involved.

The probl= em is when there are two or more choices, that appear to be equal or near e= qual, then not making a choice becomes the least risky option, compared to = the risk of making the wrong choice. Future wrong choice consequences are p= ossibly worse than the current and future no choice consequences.

What this resolves to in the curr= ent situation:

(a) choos= e RA DNS options, with the risk that everybody else chooses DHCPv6 DNS

(b) choose DHCPv6 DNS, with = the risk that everybody else chooses RA DNS

(c) don't deploy IPv6 until the popular DNS configu= ration option becomes clear.

(c) is the safest option, and the result is less IPv6 deployment.

My specific preference would= be to get rid of RA DNS options and DHCPv6 IA options, so there is only on= e solution to these problems, and no need to be forced to make a possibly w= rong choice.

I doubt tha= t is going to happen. The next best thing is what is in this draft. Make ho= sts, increasingly BYO, interoperable with whatever the network operator or = system administrato has chosen (and we should recognise and accommodate the= ir boldness, because we've forced them to be bold, and they have been, = because they didn't choose (c)).

Regards,
Mark.
<= br>


David

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

--001a114384ac5bb6810549a781a2-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 01:02:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A47F31294DB for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 01:02:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Z56c8nYhdeIm for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 01:02:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x235.google.com (mail-vk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 730671294BF for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 01:02:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk0-x235.google.com with SMTP id r136so5774279vke.1 for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 01:02:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=IN7cEfS6JfW/hODemCcCuILsaDtMphx11zX76ojB580=; b=eCtffT/Cstd+R1Q0nJX9mJZlJWTM0RRQy8Uqt24kzV6enYV/m4t27BA9W7NoDVPF7O OyIkmlEev+NXycWFlcb/FT8gx/RZrHXuY9JuCA4/IG///MthGapY1l5yclnPgqvkcINd 3NC8GhlJRGwKgXvPtdZ16eFpPzlRIXK+ai4Kyjj1DHNSJflljzXIOf6OusqlFSzxHtzx IaDJovJZFJLpsGxdgwI6XfscHN3oIX+FxtFVtF4jHRX+aYSev49Jv/zIU1hYb73hxiIx H4Mzs3dH1J6rqzdD8d4bz9auRrXkSbY0udSfHa1oyLqHcm2uUG38voKkwHsYemRFCi1n F10w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=IN7cEfS6JfW/hODemCcCuILsaDtMphx11zX76ojB580=; b=MhYNIznALysP3sbSiZd0ig3f+mPaK6fpuX4eQki6UF6Bl9NCmzOsLWW/N6MuiZ8P43 Vowj+l+9kylpiPR40x8z0aazaLu8AWe6woBQlUKua5+bIxKLjhqfQWQ+NGw5xp/4uw6L q9nBbSbENAe+Yk1Qwc/WJI30YGkRRKanLqgYxetEoZPSiz0tamTaCzZVKhKFqprRTz4t AWPBRh27TWDTAyaEtPvHmmmFerH9xjm96p/MU1bBmw1ft0Iv4glC8XEUMRZVjO6OeEE5 lJ0cz/1hLElvxHRN3urmu0VozUk6vpmVN8JCxQT7CmqMTcHVFrmGYojfOVMm/U+i0u1D FmZw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39kvH5FaukDY/303TT09Y/5bcPeKTmUrgtbeLJfhT0WwMIfH7BHYbHdOUqQc+07Y3PAyeIIPjZFGhfKK9RD8 X-Received: by 10.31.163.199 with SMTP id m190mr3159605vke.10.1488358937406; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 01:02:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.171.2 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 01:01:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 18:01:56 +0900 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114150dcc397660549a7911f Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 09:02:19 -0000 --001a114150dcc397660549a7911f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 5:57 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > What this resolves to in the current situation: > > (a) choose RA DNS options, with the risk that everybody else chooses > DHCPv6 DNS > > (b) choose DHCPv6 DNS, with the risk that everybody else chooses RA DNS > > (c) don't deploy IPv6 until the popular DNS configuration option becomes > clear. > > (c) is the safest option, and the result is less IPv6 deployment. > Can you explain why you didn't list: (d) support both? That's what millions of home routers do today. --001a114150dcc397660549a7911f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, Mar 1, 2017 at 5:57 PM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com>= ; wrote:
<= div>What this resolves to in the current situation:

(a) choose RA DNS options, with the = risk that everybody else chooses DHCPv6 DNS

(b) choose DHCPv6 DNS, with the risk that everybody els= e chooses RA DNS

(c) don= 't deploy IPv6 until the popular DNS configuration option becomes clear= .

(c) is the safest opti= on, and the result is less IPv6 deployment.
Can you explain why you didn't list:

<= div>(d) support both? That's what millions of home routers do today.
--001a114150dcc397660549a7911f-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 01:14:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBA5712985D for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 01:14:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kDZ7FRpxPvDy for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 01:14:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from calypso.otenet.gr (calypso.otenet.gr [83.235.67.36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B634129866 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 01:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.43.87] (internet-31-217-178-118.pat.nym.cosmote.net [31.217.178.118]) by calypso.otenet.gr (ESMTP) with ESMTPSA id 8657D13804D for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:14:27 +0200 (EET) To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <148763027040.25952.5914924936449771028.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <692043A0-04F2-46EA-84D2-D4964E925C6B@consulintel.es> <73771501-23f6-6117-28ca-f779682311f2@otenet.gr> <5E812E8E-EECA-4F2F-8408-BAA73A3A7524@consulintel.es> From: Yannis Nikolopoulos Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:14:27 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5E812E8E-EECA-4F2F-8408-BAA73A3A7524@consulintel.es> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 09:14:36 -0000 Jordi, unless I'm reading an earlier version, unlike MAP-E/T, lw4o6 is optional. From https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-00#section-4.4.7: " The CE router MAY support lw4o6 functionality" regards, Yannis On 02/28/2017 10:42 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > Hi Yannis, > > I’m not sure to understand your point. > > Unless I did a mistake while editing the draft, all them are with SHOULD. > > Regards, > Jordi > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Yannis Nikolopoulos > Responder a: > Fecha: martes, 28 de febrero de 2017, 21:29 > Para: , > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-00.txt > > Hi, > > I just don't get why is lw4o6 differentiated from MAP. To me, it does > not make sense that one is optional and the other two are not. The > rationale does not help much either > > > regards, > > Yannis > > > On 02/21/2017 11:11 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I’ve submitted a -bis draft for updating RFC7084 (Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers). > > > > > 1) Considering that there’re no more IPv4 addresses and according to my experience with service providers, they will prefer to avoid dual stack in the WAN ASAP, and avoid CGN, I think 6rd and DS-LITE need to be changed to MAY. > > > > 2) At the same time, I’ve included lw4o6, also with MAY. The rationale for this: Many service providers try to avoid the CGN, and lw4o6 is a way to do so, without increasing the cost of the CE. Basically, a CE that supports a regular IPv4 NAT+DS-Lite, is already capable of supporting lw4o6. The cost in terms of CE flash memory for DS-Lite is about 1Kb. The open source package available for DS-Lite that I’ve been digging-in takes 6Kb, but already includes also support for both MAP versions. > > > > 3) Include support for 464XLAT, MAP-E, MAP-T as SHOULD. Those protocols are the 3 alternatives that a service provider has to deploy IPv6-only WAN, but at the same time provide dual-stack in the LANs, with practically the same functionalities or even more, that what CGN requires. At the service provider network, it requires, instead of CGN, a stateful NAT64 (which cellular providers are already using) or a Border Relay (for MAP). Basically, a CE needs only 3Kbytes of code in the flash to support CLAT (the CE part of 464XLAT). The support for MAP (both versions and also lw6o4), requires about 6Kb. > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Wed Mar 1 01:17:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D330A129876 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 01:17:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CH1XIclhOd32 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 01:17:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 91665129874 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 01:17:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1488359828; x=1488964628; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=MJjNJf2lbp/w7TWJ3CK+WaSrt vc43xjcNaDkIqxTy9Y=; b=LH5+ZiW153mMKbsA/dthP1bamW3d4LhGivJiU1H9T Wge01oymyxd/Bk7L/tWks9Vmb3kuD1/WDbqRjbt+UCxU/XSfRdFOo408qCSkSA+2 q+O4E92uwBqt205fmrbVGPNbcChJkWNoxEwZ7eJYhiATMw9o1rTcwFgf2doLZfQG T4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=aJL6LHgoz2DdaJVDd3v2wVGmqbYWB/kUlHcUlbAFkzvJ3O77cyi5G7PFqTgx pkdOYyBj61nswxf0k8vhuIAMaJ1vyj/BJZmsvaFil0T8aT9dDbQVRJpEG aERGxAkcDcgZGng6hOy4KY0kmL+u3RD8bMm+T/HOoOZZxMOZeSDyOg=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 01 Mar 2017 10:17:08 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 01 Mar 2017 10:17:07 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005376321.msg for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 10:17:07 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:170301:md50005376321::eAxgBbG3kQo/um8A:00000a0K X-Return-Path: prvs=1233b56f8a=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1f.0.170216 Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 10:17:04 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-00.txt References: <148763027040.25952.5914924936449771028.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <692043A0-04F2-46EA-84D2-D4964E925C6B@consulintel.es> <73771501-23f6-6117-28ca-f779682311f2@otenet.gr> <5E812E8E-EECA-4F2F-8408-BAA73A3A7524@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 09:17:15 -0000 Yeah, it has been updated already to 01: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis Regards, Jordi =20 -----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Yannis Nikolopoulos Responder a: Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 1 de marzo de 2017, 10:14 Para: Asunto: Re: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7= 084-bis-00.txt Jordi, =20 unless I'm reading an earlier version, unlike MAP-E/T, lw4o6 is=20 optional. From=20 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-00#section-4.= 4.7: =20 " The CE router MAY support lw4o6 functionality" =20 regards, =20 Yannis =20 =20 On 02/28/2017 10:42 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > Hi Yannis, > > I=E2=80=99m not sure to understand your point. > > Unless I did a mistake while editing the draft, all them are with SHO= ULD. > > Regards, > Jordi > =20 > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: Yannis Nikolopoulos > Responder a: > Fecha: martes, 28 de febrero de 2017, 21:29 > Para: , > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-palet-v6op= s-rfc7084-bis-00.txt > > Hi, > =20 > I just don't get why is lw4o6 differentiated from MAP. To me, it= does > not make sense that one is optional and the other two are not. T= he > rationale does not help much either > =20 > =20 > regards, > =20 > Yannis > =20 > =20 > On 02/21/2017 11:11 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > > Hi, > > > > I=E2=80=99ve submitted a -bis draft for updating RFC7084 (Basi= c Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers). > =20 > > =20 > > 1) Considering that there=E2=80=99re no more IPv4 addresses an= d according to my experience with service providers, they will prefer to av= oid dual stack in the WAN ASAP, and avoid CGN, I think 6rd and DS-LITE need= to be changed to MAY. > > > > 2) At the same time, I=E2=80=99ve included lw4o6, also with MA= Y. The rationale for this: Many service providers try to avoid the CGN, and= lw4o6 is a way to do so, without increasing the cost of the CE. Basically,= a CE that supports a regular IPv4 NAT+DS-Lite, is already capable of suppo= rting lw4o6. The cost in terms of CE flash memory for DS-Lite is about 1Kb.= The open source package available for DS-Lite that I=E2=80=99ve been diggi= ng-in takes 6Kb, but already includes also support for both MAP versions. > > > > 3) Include support for 464XLAT, MAP-E, MAP-T as SHOULD. Those = protocols are the 3 alternatives that a service provider has to deploy IPv6= -only WAN, but at the same time provide dual-stack in the LANs, with practi= cally the same functionalities or even more, that what CGN requires. At the= service provider network, it requires, instead of CGN, a stateful NAT64 (w= hich cellular providers are already using) or a Border Relay (for MAP). Bas= ically, a CE needs only 3Kbytes of code in the flash to support CLAT (the C= E part of 464XLAT). The support for MAP (both versions and also lw6o4), req= uires about 6Kb. > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > > =20 > =20 > =20 > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the indiv= idual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that a= ny disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this informa= tion, including attached files, is prohibited. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Wed Mar 1 01:38:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AE12D1298A5 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 01:38:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.352 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.352 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HpnPi-oteeb4 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 01:38:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CC931298A3 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 01:38:08 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v219c5EG014786 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:38:06 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id E172C20730B for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:38:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D764320326A for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:38:05 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v219c4ai028020 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:38:05 +0100 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <2646FC7F-A008-4A5F-8D33-4607D306B8AE@google.com> <3e733fa0-744b-28d8-28d2-dbf3ace3c8b3@si6networks.com> <74EF0172-F021-4941-92EE-76D11C3F9401@employees.org> <49a10ca2-6d6c-4d92-fffb-902e20566d9d@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <81aa67f8-a66c-3f58-0353-442621431020@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:37:49 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 09:38:10 -0000 Le 01/03/2017 09:15, otroan@employees.org a crit : > Brian, > > [...] > >>>> There's another closely related breakage, which is the absence >>>> of default router signalling in DHCPv6. That means that even if >>>> a site must use DHCPv6 for configuring stuff that RAs cannot >>>> configure, they must also use RAs for configuring stuff that >>>> DHCPv6 cannot configure. >>>> >>>> Something like bad systems design. >>> >>> It's a failure of the IETF to have specified two ways of doing >>> the same thing. And now you are proposing that we should do even >>> more of that? >> >> In the sense that two incomplete solutions are worse than two >> complete solutions, yes. I think the real goal is that a >> wide-enough set of functions should be covered by both solutions, >> and to my mind that should include both DNS servers and default >> routers. > > They are only incomplete if you redesign how they are supposed to > work after the fact. They are complementary, and there are very good > reasons for that. > > An off-link DHCP server advertising a default router address > wouldn't even have IP reachability to the default router address. It > has no effective way of updating a host's default router nor deal > with default router failure. Fate sharing etc. We've been through > these arguments so many times I don't see any purpose in rehashing > all of them. These fate sharing arguments may be pure speculation in IPv6 with respect to default routes. Whereas in IPv4 very large networks are operated with this lack of supposedly fate sharing need (distribute default routes by a centralised DHCP server) in IPv6 there is no experience with large office networks that are IPv6-only, so we cant say how real this fate sharing need is. Let me give examples answering these two questions: Fate sharing applied between which components? And how about survivability? We want the Host to share the fate of the Router (not of a remote DHCP Server): if that Router lives then the Host lives too. But we also want survivability: it's not because the Router dies that the Host must die too. Also, we dont want the fate of the Router to be shared with the DHCP Server. Survivability of DHCP Servers is ensured by load-balancing with VRRP between DHCP Servers. And we dont have survivability between Routers with respect to the default routes: there can be a potentially long lapse of time between the old default route being deleted upon death of the old default router. We dont know which default route a Host must choose when two routers send default routes simultaneously. > Let's not make the problem worse. > > In the principle of fate sharing, it is clear that the node offering > the service is the node advertising the service, and that it is > directly discovered by the host that consumes it. That's not the > case for how deal with DNS recursive resolver configuration today. By this principle, mDNS would not respect fate sharing either, right? In mDNS a request to convert name to address is sent out in the wild (multicast) and we dont know who replies, whether it is on the same DNS domain, or not. > Why do we assume that the local network should even provide DNS > configuration? Because of security. The time of convenient using of someone else's DNS server is long past, I think. But I wonder whether you meant 'local subnet' or 'local network'? I guess not all local subnets will provide DNS servers. I also guess, if I understand it correctly, mDNS has a role to play here - supposedly it does not need RA nor DHCP. It's simply a 3rd way of doing it. Alex > > Ole > > > > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Wed Mar 1 02:12:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4852129959 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 02:12:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XuGj-E9RkdlA for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 02:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from calypso.otenet.gr (calypso.otenet.gr [83.235.67.36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 719D812995C for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 02:12:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.43.87] (internet-31-217-178-53.pat.nym.cosmote.net [31.217.178.53]) by calypso.otenet.gr (ESMTP) with ESMTPSA id 904CB13804D; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:12:22 +0200 (EET) To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es, v6ops@ietf.org References: <148763027040.25952.5914924936449771028.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <692043A0-04F2-46EA-84D2-D4964E925C6B@consulintel.es> <73771501-23f6-6117-28ca-f779682311f2@otenet.gr> <5E812E8E-EECA-4F2F-8408-BAA73A3A7524@consulintel.es> From: Yannis Nikolopoulos Message-ID: <85bbd4e3-1732-8011-a379-c329145b0578@otenet.gr> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:12:21 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 10:12:26 -0000 Thanks Jordi, I missed this update On 03/01/2017 11:17 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > Yeah, it has been updated already to 01: > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis > > Regards, > Jordi > > > -----Mensaje original----- > De: v6ops en nombre de Yannis Nikolopoulos > Responder a: > Fecha: miércoles, 1 de marzo de 2017, 10:14 > Para: > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-00.txt > > Jordi, > > unless I'm reading an earlier version, unlike MAP-E/T, lw4o6 is > optional. From > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-00#section-4.4.7: > > " The CE router MAY support lw4o6 functionality" > > regards, > > Yannis > > > On 02/28/2017 10:42 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > > Hi Yannis, > > > > I’m not sure to understand your point. > > > > Unless I did a mistake while editing the draft, all them are with SHOULD. > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > -----Mensaje original----- > > De: Yannis Nikolopoulos > > Responder a: > > Fecha: martes, 28 de febrero de 2017, 21:29 > > Para: , > > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] FW: New Version Notification for draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-00.txt > > > > Hi, > > > > I just don't get why is lw4o6 differentiated from MAP. To me, it does > > not make sense that one is optional and the other two are not. The > > rationale does not help much either > > > > > > regards, > > > > Yannis > > > > > > On 02/21/2017 11:11 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > I’ve submitted a -bis draft for updating RFC7084 (Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers). > > > > > > > > > 1) Considering that there’re no more IPv4 addresses and according to my experience with service providers, they will prefer to avoid dual stack in the WAN ASAP, and avoid CGN, I think 6rd and DS-LITE need to be changed to MAY. > > > > > > 2) At the same time, I’ve included lw4o6, also with MAY. The rationale for this: Many service providers try to avoid the CGN, and lw4o6 is a way to do so, without increasing the cost of the CE. Basically, a CE that supports a regular IPv4 NAT+DS-Lite, is already capable of supporting lw4o6. The cost in terms of CE flash memory for DS-Lite is about 1Kb. The open source package available for DS-Lite that I’ve been digging-in takes 6Kb, but already includes also support for both MAP versions. > > > > > > 3) Include support for 464XLAT, MAP-E, MAP-T as SHOULD. Those protocols are the 3 alternatives that a service provider has to deploy IPv6-only WAN, but at the same time provide dual-stack in the LANs, with practically the same functionalities or even more, that what CGN requires. At the service provider network, it requires, instead of CGN, a stateful NAT64 (which cellular providers are already using) or a Border Relay (for MAP). Basically, a CE needs only 3Kbytes of code in the flash to support CLAT (the CE part of 464XLAT). The support for MAP (both versions and also lw6o4), requires about 6Kb. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.consulintel.es > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, including attached files, is prohibited. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Wed Mar 1 02:25:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4D2D4129965 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 02:25:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pEZmx2TtZwaa for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 02:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua0-x229.google.com (mail-ua0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 10A48128824 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 02:25:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua0-x229.google.com with SMTP id 72so38210058uaf.3 for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 02:25:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=KKMBb0KfbOxDjue6KD4e2/VjhpLKXROCCtzZAKiM0pc=; b=p3t4bWT58bef2AIJ1vp31PT9mblyBlm+lEaUJUCAk/KgZJjOsQwymdcu8kfJ28G2xM uKcwQ0yoS2AmHPwdnIe41sXmKAztCQEmTsLIzG4ZPAETM5WPaW3gFijWvTVR99+y2Re9 fvNq9gAbbuO5qJTziwqU5n9bJuZXPhq9Wb9/QvLmpA4lsNI9i5SNja7QkR/4z6NhIpn+ AjCYwQ8rt/bXgOmC20viY81LQGifpsPCuJn+5x1pw+9nNlVIo17yMQO+huPNHIhryf+2 BKkSj7/NjKniVC3jZUTxCW+tD3Ikt9aN8MudIBXhoZoUHij4nb6l9i6pRDdEd2RZ8wqE UO8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=KKMBb0KfbOxDjue6KD4e2/VjhpLKXROCCtzZAKiM0pc=; b=EEviJAYy7XiMgIlLEfjs3KyyzMzOJ2KkVySKeuIcQOJNiK43R36owCiMNOTYj+O7Ze wM3rKqi78+Bw9zWr+UZNdQjiC14AJgBZNotE1qz+KshZ5a9MDnRfLq8SS3IUeLIMqr6Z 84BVqhiBByRcArN/KW17ONvpQ0CuzNSXD8ldVKBSza4tL6tl4epihVciZE/zU2V0b01E 8oGH54kee7GlszpySJ21zpYRlNDIq6tzLFv1OdH+nLisIi15V1TJY0PvJEp/7YcFfaOQ UJQ7xRpxFPHr+4tzOy0bV43SSAdgZWsFR2b6wg4bvN84fiH1gsLeug06qFLN0Gh1B0m+ UoFw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39mRUVEShJsrUnxv9kPXlSn8QQ9d1lp8q63DkR/ZZrB0sJ96mYuBUeS5XBwqRgtgVviu9q0vhNZuhpYmTg== X-Received: by 10.176.23.89 with SMTP id k25mr2926243uaf.49.1488363917203; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 02:25:17 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.176.4.83 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 02:25:15 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.176.4.83 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 02:25:15 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:25:15 +1100 Message-ID: To: Lorenzo Colitti Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f40304361e1294ed1e0549a8baf9 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 10:25:19 -0000 --f40304361e1294ed1e0549a8baf9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 1 Mar. 2017 20:02, "Lorenzo Colitti" wrote: On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 5:57 PM, Mark Smith wrote: > What this resolves to in the current situation: > > (a) choose RA DNS options, with the risk that everybody else chooses > DHCPv6 DNS > > (b) choose DHCPv6 DNS, with the risk that everybody else chooses RA DNS > > (c) don't deploy IPv6 until the popular DNS configuration option becomes > clear. > > (c) is the safest option, and the result is less IPv6 deployment. > Can you explain why you didn't list: (d) support both? That's what millions of home routers do today. Enterprise routers don't, going by the Microsoft article. https://blog.apnic.net/2017/01/19/ipv6-only-at-microsoft/ Which should adapt to which? The hosts adapt to the network or the network adapt to the hosts? --f40304361e1294ed1e0549a8baf9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 1 Mar. 2017 20:02, "Lorenzo Colitti" <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 1, 20= 17 at 5:57 PM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrot= e:
What this= resolves to in the current situation:
(a) choose RA DNS options, with the risk that eve= rybody else chooses DHCPv6 DNS

(b) choose DHCPv6 DNS, with the risk that everybody else chooses RA = DNS

(c) don't deploy= IPv6 until the popular DNS configuration option becomes clear.

(c) is the safest option, and the r= esult is less IPv6 deployment.

Can you explain why you didn't list:

(d)= support both? That's what millions of home routers do today.

Enterprise routers don't, going by the Microsoft articl= e.


Which should adapt to which? The hosts adapt to the network= or the network adapt to the hosts?

--f40304361e1294ed1e0549a8baf9-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 02:31:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88DEB1294D2 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 02:31:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tL19PFs7Nry0 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 02:31:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x231.google.com (mail-vk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CB8D2129481 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 02:31:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id x75so6702551vke.2 for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 02:31:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TwRew9gyUCVmPrUloVM4EI/zTRROW7wEX8Caq8Lj4gs=; b=remNwaZ+phf5byFJd/WK6K8iiexbbVM4RZ/P7FUstH+8gvvHqRrh8X074auc8CMdTn ZtA3VxASTTCn72mlMb97BhT/YjeXjQAHLmXYT7RX358FBXF5lwTyL0WfzeEzIScGsOM4 fD3TyWlYnKFB9pnS3+0BEMnA21taxtW5+VIJGxLXaaxC2ymiUZUGVHPycEIGVmI5L8BI 3/Z2NuGFKQcYIzIjh1S7u+M1S2Tw8jqdKw48dDz39oYGoasY+o+9ItRVMJyC93K8eQ1V lDmJXI2CGq2oVvdSgrHMCgs8Rpydv0csrYWutKSoBrD9RLiBoJJoNOmrjOr8FNbVQwiI 0erA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TwRew9gyUCVmPrUloVM4EI/zTRROW7wEX8Caq8Lj4gs=; b=ngQlehGpP2jbGHeEBc+QcIbDuQ4Hf+yh1pq4zANK1DVhdRF2AuCt8BAr7GPJpLk4yd SABMs2Ohf4PazYCN8/TFPGYtReHohV12DsIZJrc3CRdLDKLPlQwi/6ORstUmzrxs7Gdx 50p0KutzPd7mbC5jND/wEqZIimQkK6xM5HGYCBCEKi+abH0nEDhRtSpvRuNtJQmXLSDW eo/hAvqbXx5oKMfIq8JqWloq1abQMu0obsM19KDxLxSZ7LJYg3RU8UPF0rUnqF/c/8JI /DDt4ENHLzOHwVZwiOo00niTjV6DBarEK0s9C0jGenQ03e+W1jZOA6vmMVxKIfZQc8eC Zh/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39myVmuU8eeLt3Hgu1ESyYV4QBv0F8m81zIZxNlSLNOZ70cs+V+wbZI8ZzLqykyLrgWylelScBWlA8WvQVfr X-Received: by 10.31.59.197 with SMTP id i188mr23604vka.45.1488364287667; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 02:31:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.171.2 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 02:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.31.171.2 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 02:31:26 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 19:31:26 +0900 Message-ID: To: Mark Smith Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1142f178aa35b60549a8d087 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 10:31:30 -0000 --001a1142f178aa35b60549a8d087 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 1 Mar 2017 7:25 pm, "Mark Smith" wrote: Can you explain why you didn't list: (d) support both? That's what millions of home routers do today. Enterprise routers don't, going by the Microsoft article. https://blog.apnic.net/2017/01/19/ipv6-only-at-microsoft/ If you read the Microsoft blog post you'll see that when it was written they were already testing vendor code that had RDNSS support. --001a1142f178aa35b60549a8d087 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On 1 Mar 2017 7:25 pm, "Mark Smith" <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
Can you explain why you didn't list:

(d) support both? That's what millions of home routers do today.
=

Enterprise routers don't, going by the Micros= oft article.

<= /div>

If you read the Microsoft blog post you'll see that when it was = written they were already testing vendor code that had RDNSS support.
=
--001a1142f178aa35b60549a8d087-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 03:09:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BD50129952 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 03:09:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.819 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.819 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779, T_OBFU_GIF_ATTACH=0.01, T_OBFU_JPG_ATTACH=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DcACBPv91fOi for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 03:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mailout12.rmx.de (mailout12.rmx.de [94.199.88.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 333311294F9 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 03:09:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from kdin02.retarus.com (kdin02.dmz1.retloc [172.19.17.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mailout12.rmx.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3vYCPM0nPSzRlsK; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:08:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from owa.wieland-electric.com (unknown [212.185.105.80]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by kdin02.retarus.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3vYCPL57L1z2TRvC; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:08:54 +0100 (CET) From: Eismann Dominik To: Lorenzo Colitti Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) Thread-Index: AQHSkZqfoCfqHBIEUU+akeirxwkQc6F+JBiAgAACkoCAAABMgIAAA8wAgAAe0oCAAAN5gIAAEO+AgABmloCAAGauAIAAI5YAgAAFO4CAAASOgIAAAz8AgAAETQCAAAVbAIAAOkWAgAABMACAABdHgIAAAboAgAAR/0A= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:08:53 +0000 Message-ID: References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: de-DE, en-US Content-Language: de-DE X-MS-Has-Attach: yes X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="_007_B9D25F65928ED148879295852B7683C93E6D8371MBXBAMBERG01bam_"; type="multipart/alternative" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RMX-ID: 20170301-120854-3vYCPL57L1z2TRvC-0@kdin02 X-RMX-TRACE: 2017-03-01 12:08:54 KdIn2013@kdin02/mailcc05 [0.1s] 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creation-date="Wed, 01 Mar 2017 11:08:54 GMT"; modification-date="Wed, 01 Mar 2017 11:08:54 GMT" Content-ID: <01_icon_twitter_35px.gif> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 R0lGODlhIwAjAMQAAM3p90St4V245Wm954LI6/P6/bTe88Hk9XbD6ZvT76jZ8eb0+9rv+Y/O7VCy 4////zen3wAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACH5BAAA AAAALAAAAAAjACMAAAWbICSOZGmeaKqubOu+cCzPdG3ft2AUD0CIAUQLIEgRHsjkYZdoPQpCkyNJ RfqiqUGyWVJUqwBncvEbAb7KwLC6UCAEZ/TDFRjw5HiX4LHA5113fl9hLgmCaAowBodVRS8Di4w9 MVqSDwMyXowGNAR9fgxqNA4MeKEzAgQHfgCiMAmBcgUNNQENcVUHBK45A76OOMHCw8TFxsfIKiEA Ow== --_007_B9D25F65928ED148879295852B7683C93E6D8371MBXBAMBERG01bam_ Content-Type: application/octet-stream; name="02_icon_fb_35px.gif" Content-Description: 02_icon_fb_35px.gif Content-Disposition: inline; filename="02_icon_fb_35px.gif"; size=246; creation-date="Wed, 01 Mar 2017 11:08:54 GMT"; modification-date="Wed, 01 Mar 2017 11:08:54 GMT" Content-ID: <02_icon_fb_35px.gif> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id O-Yqfzv0trRw for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 06:34:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C00D51289C4 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 06:34:08 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v21EY12G012028 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 1 Mar 2017 14:34:02 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local Message-ID: <58B6DBD9.4010402@foobar.org> Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 14:34:01 +0000 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.10 (Macintosh/20170123) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: otroan@employees.org References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <2646FC7F-A008-4A5F-8D33-4607D306B8AE@google.com> <3e733fa0-744b-28d8-28d2-dbf3ace3c8b3@si6networks.com> <74EF0172-F021-4941-92EE-76D11C3F9401@employees.org> <49a10ca2-6d6c-4d92-fffb-902e20566d9d@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 14:34:11 -0000 otroan@employees.org wrote: > An off-link DHCP server advertising a default router address wouldn't > even have IP reachability to the default router address. It has no > effective way of updating a host's default router nor deal with > default router failure. Fate sharing etc. We've been through these > arguments so many times I don't see any purpose in rehashing all of > them. Please can we move past this particular canard? It is still as much of a straw man argument as it was when it was first suggested 15-20 years ago. Nick From nobody Wed Mar 1 06:47:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBEA8129495 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 06:47:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c7wkoPZUXwdC for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 06:47:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6EE01294A3 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 06:47:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #127) id m1cj5XD-0000GEC; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 15:47:19 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <2646FC7F-A008-4A5F-8D33-4607D306B8AE@google.com> <3e733fa0-744b-28d8-28d2-dbf3ace3c8b3@si6networks.com> <74EF0172-F021-4941-92EE-76D11C3F9401@employees.org> <49a10ca2-6d6c-4d92-fffb-902e20566d9d@gmail.com> <58B6DBD9.4010402@foobar.org> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 01 Mar 2017 14:34:01 +0000 ." <58B6DBD9.4010402@foobar.org> Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 15:47:18 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 14:47:31 -0000 >otroan@employees.org wrote: >> An off-link DHCP server advertising a default router address wouldn't >> even have IP reachability to the default router address. It has no >> effective way of updating a host's default router nor deal with >> default router failure. Fate sharing etc. We've been through these >> arguments so many times I don't see any purpose in rehashing all of >> them. > >Please can we move past this particular canard? It is still as much of >a straw man argument as it was when it was first suggested 15-20 years >ago. Indeed. If this were such a big problem, somebody would have tried to resurrect IPv4 Router Advertisement ICMPs (RFC 1256). Surprisingly, the only time the inability to update default routers is mentioned, is when somebody tries to prevent that feature from getting added to ICMPv6. From nobody Wed Mar 1 07:00:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B7F912948E for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:00:47 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RyhwxJF8bpbK for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:00:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1192712946A for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2017 15:00:44 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A8C0D788D; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:00:44 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=/6OCrYMWihC5fZG8KxLnPG10y1I=; b= A6K7dqTkS/GmSzHvlUl5kAL1ZptZE1cUqkwnITaYDyyd3eux32w3qhcFwf7qPPGo OlxQzzmcwv0hTYdmL7uW+dspNQ/UtZh4EsfJxBfiSYqLy6BtQQJwXzlUsOS5mtA4 NN363MFN0ZfagjuCHdUAXtKBIGSxWFltCwTeChAVtNM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=URcJdzEgvFxBxqIqXBhq8eU Y/CDjU/akh5Nnap2Kv1lOUO/Y/cU0SOOrejjkK3PlL0nVFeomwTTs7j5Df/QwQP7 jUjAubCbUqOtbnWqfXn3MMqs7hSqAekLTPTxFER9W7TIDIFvQjKm4oJjMncazw5V LD5vPg7dZ/30zTzWXx9w= Received: from h.hanazo.no (96.51-175-103.customer.lyse.net [51.175.103.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6EB8ED788A; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:00:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id CD58191D7F25; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 16:00:42 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <0752C308-7B6B-476D-AAF9-E7B7D7FA8EA4@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_17C4CA18-C735-43F4-A63A-44F652A1EC9B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 16:00:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: <58B6DBD9.4010402@foobar.org> To: Nick Hilliard References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <2646FC7F-A008-4A5F-8D33-4607D306B8AE@google.com> <3e733fa0-744b-28d8-28d2-dbf3ace3c8b3@si6networks.com> <74EF0172-F021-4941-92EE-76D11C3F9401@employees.org> <49a10ca2-6d6c-4d92-fffb-902e20566d9d@gmail.com> <58B6DBD9.4010402@foobar.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 15:00:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_17C4CA18-C735-43F4-A63A-44F652A1EC9B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Nick, >> An off-link DHCP server advertising a default router address wouldn't >> even have IP reachability to the default router address. It has no >> effective way of updating a host's default router nor deal with >> default router failure. Fate sharing etc. We've been through these >> arguments so many times I don't see any purpose in rehashing all of >> them. > > Please can we move past this particular canard? It is still as much of > a straw man argument as it was when it was first suggested 15-20 years > ago. No. Ole --Apple-Mail=_17C4CA18-C735-43F4-A63A-44F652A1EC9B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYtuIaAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92eeIP/RKrrsSSE+H+ZNCOKFxIIJkI TrAvNXuIiJ6YZl/J6E+f6RuM6+btqfGKAgd4jicmvfwL32piledhTeQeboA99YVE NQ/C9zLpUlk4Az1pktD0Us7LGuUpGKPQKomG7Ah/ZR36WMRn6VHGOFaHAgMBTu3r E7saD6U8txQSx7HmuMdlW1ClLfu55RYwr8nI/wDf22KOipooIALiD3upbwb9+pE7 IPEPrkzwBcHX8eoPoHaNFPGAKufbHXf01EgyjYWOB30fryIXqVY4RlTKvCFZgWyN 3Zn71h1Z+xOX9yB/CrZwQGy//p8xbKUE3ieHFw8RiEve8iI7VDMMIg+JYgwUMzGH n0QNXk3mQk22ucKPa8vbgURUNnyMzacOVBzdlMprIC/Yla4X/WUm/HTTvJzom4Ea t7FM6jUMDLA2FoO0c9dWEWv+qz0jR361Af5CRerJwhpfbKQqlu1BsZ+vVGDkeoxz G5H6A/LEWYP+a/6kHISDmdRYIpM4DCgV8Zs6uOPCnUBoZakqgAt69h6aY8bNTJyj MLSel3ph7afpAMaFW8LXiTyF9MnE0l/zqSu7tnkp+F7LLhLKMaaG+VvN3wdAFZDJ CwlQZwKb0m8fE887bvHyr0CCyv7CcTnSi2xseOgXmqZQPXa2SCyKmGuy2OJ6vbZ0 24HLSNyNaULfktK4FdGj =BVmw -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_17C4CA18-C735-43F4-A63A-44F652A1EC9B-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 07:37:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FC6B129581 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:37:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0snxXQNoKysc for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x233.google.com (mail-yw0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 436EB129570 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:37:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x233.google.com with SMTP id v200so34547242ywc.3 for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 07:37:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=fCMcYtaTUOxyNraXBJujOuWizCgPNYf37PwTDxU4ifA=; b=1A2n8G8XX8boYljjM0+NIbO3LQscCIdf1tkrILlpKOPCdkFR33CAEZJztZk4wVQSoX mI1EqOmEktxAQhNBjyhWuWWxKyWIJkb7XG5B7cKe1RX/QF3IaJ/RXBAMqJ5LbGJB+1WP +feyy6ch/9lCVG9FjLR0Ij0bJV34WftVPyAso2OCh105rsoAPl3F1ocbOwo8s5Nh1FRu k6lHhGkSEO61VTxTxu3bXq9hn+mELu0dhFAclustTraUURSp8NO18FCHl14vj9xB8xP9 HoOFyIjyXKZuzF6WnB5RLJ9tzHH5HMRov0N1tc+3R25z0IFC971weSYC8WDfRYKB7HIa KFLg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=fCMcYtaTUOxyNraXBJujOuWizCgPNYf37PwTDxU4ifA=; b=c0pwXwFPi/TU79itWUNUJrFwtH5kxMXOF8o9Qnu6x0c+8IyuJUBRbhE3AaNDXh6/cw hHVM+3MAjaHzZ9E/xXmaRZ2CsmiwEKYbJoJIFMZnIP8kVoivU2z7iP6WjPVx6n8ibdb3 6NZTo+PUiUAoa/0tY/NMLCyy7+UpW4niFdag0yB69nQ9EkTEPshdZm6SMSatMdsdno2D jaqJ9QnXUunOgWGq+ihBzX4WQCTYI+lmb2x2gKKJ1gom/X4Fgw0CPQGIqLpNHoyrmbAo x2imS+rNaBxIIpHYs/uqYF3UfLUD3P4LTRBXAOJxsmGMLVIqyFvNjf0ewwzkuP0A+4rJ kAlg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39mrgwWpwGGm3WfoWgTedMMgj8LpwgiMSOzuUvScU5G2JwgMeS4v63A1TosQ+BV7kw== X-Received: by 10.237.58.4 with SMTP id n4mr10369513qte.290.1488382619398; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 07:36:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.20.202] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h40sm3383425qtb.6.2017.03.01.07.36.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 01 Mar 2017 07:36:58 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C23A5E3E-651D-4880-9E14-7B49BD8868F5" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:36:56 -0500 In-Reply-To: To: Mark Smith References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 15:37:02 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C23A5E3E-651D-4880-9E14-7B49BD8868F5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mar 1, 2017, at 5:25 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > Which should adapt to which? The hosts adapt to the network or the = network adapt to the hosts? Obviously the network should support a diversity of hosts. That doesn't help much, does it? I think it is actually correct, but I = haven't said why, and I think Fernando could quite legitimately demand = that I do so. But I can make the same demand of him. So in order to = try to decide which sort of advice to give, we should really try to = figure out what it is that we care about. One advice to give is that hosts and routers should support both = methods. This is obviously the most general advice, but only works if = everybody follows it. Another advice would be that routers should support both methods. This = has the virtue of making the set of things that need to be updated = relatively small, but getting new firmware out of router vendors with = new features in it isn't always easy, so I can see why an ops person = would resist that solution. Nevertheless, we are thinking long term, = so putting this in the router requirements document long term would work = as well as any of the other options we might consider. The other virtue of this approach is that it puts the responsibility for = making it happen in the hands of people who are notionally capable of = taking responsibility for it: network operators. In principle, network = operators can tell whether or not their infrastructure conforms. This = cannot be assuemd to be true of end users. The third advice would be to require that hosts support both methods. = This has the virtue of not pissing off network operators. That's no = small thing if we really believe that network operators are going to = continue resisting the deployment of IPv6 until we stop pissing them = off. However, that's a pretty thin excuse for making the decision this = way, and I think that's why there's pushback. If this really feels = like the right thing to do, it might be worth exploring why it is that = it feels that way and stating the reasons explicitly. I don't think = "to mollify operators" is a very good reason. --Apple-Mail=_C23A5E3E-651D-4880-9E14-7B49BD8868F5 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Mar 1, 2017, at 5:25 AM, Mark Smith <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
Which should adapt to which? = The hosts adapt to the network or the network adapt to the = hosts?

Obviously the = network should support a diversity of hosts.

That doesn't help much, does it?   I think it = is actually correct, but I haven't said why, and I think Fernando could = quite legitimately demand that I do so.   But I can make the same = demand of him.   So in order to try to decide which sort of advice = to give, we should really try to figure out what it is that we care = about.

One advice to give is that = hosts and routers should support both methods.   This is obviously = the most general advice, but only works if everybody follows = it.

Another advice would be that = routers should support both methods.   This has the virtue of = making the set of things that need to be updated relatively small, but = getting new firmware out of router vendors with new features in it isn't = always easy, so I can see why an ops person would resist that solution. =   Nevertheless, we are thinking long term, so putting this in the = router requirements document long term would work as well as any of the = other options we might consider.

The = other virtue of this approach is that it puts the responsibility for = making it happen in the hands of people who are notionally capable of = taking responsibility for it: network operators.   In principle, = network operators can tell whether or not their infrastructure conforms. =   This cannot be assuemd to be true of end users.

The third advice would be to require that hosts = support both methods.   This has the virtue of not pissing off = network operators.   That's no small thing if we really believe = that network operators are going to continue resisting the deployment of = IPv6 until we stop pissing them off.   However, that's a pretty = thin excuse for making the decision this way, and I think that's why = there's pushback.   If this really feels like the right thing to = do, it might be worth exploring why it is that it feels that way and = stating the reasons explicitly.   I don't think "to mollify = operators" is a very good reason.

= --Apple-Mail=_C23A5E3E-651D-4880-9E14-7B49BD8868F5-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 07:51:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 166A0129598 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:51:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id aOv3wzeuWKP9 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:51:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-vk0-x22c.google.com (mail-vk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8938C12959F for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:51:31 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-vk0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id x75so11425463vke.2 for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 07:51:31 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=kl82QYCak+Rr+FJrtIyEMLBEJu5xrUspNCmdSevWM0s=; b=swVJhXvbpGQsJmBkX1Um7G2LCls0HapyODdPdTYr3lUmo1+SrgHln3VA4U1o/Kb0PI ZdBilFhKC7Y5+9cEayaBtuoHPmmE+xYcCNqWz40HMwIP3bxoedUFl7pmQlyBfuj6BoYz FA2NDN6d1MItgA1Imxx9Yvxp0iJkgYo3DKT+1d6U4I9VrjveBYQodbrQz4rDbHovbc00 6iLB3UDqvs5k1iASU31ZpMU1LA7ROHYzZdMQ8qt3uVwsDvc05y0R4hNGy26Dxn0aSBUe byhV8rllPd/jTvONgFeSEL0QdwA28+H9x5CBlfVCByMy8gTksOxEPI1y1qOkK9nYpxq5 5f8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=kl82QYCak+Rr+FJrtIyEMLBEJu5xrUspNCmdSevWM0s=; b=AZGAuwMdaSghi5k9kzX4NmQmkOFA2OGw1DP3K4MgaBR5/mLtRoakxhco/ECxAFYo7V /iCL56sPOLM4YcWd/vCRXum5ed/IpwbiZHV/qpnc5XhK/aJi9ZCVJTfEGUyzPcxYSsMB mshwfCkb5L7rTgHP50BqQtVJBuCWKSKISindw08BXhuTQ9ljsp0vahqvBbnlNsrKiR0F BPHnGx6KEjEA8JD4a0vG+z+dq3DnWReZLeNNPxBC91ZZ69ag8WqPldYGX7A0V2Dgtd6J /py1ucEYVH7HzaZIFEqsEMexTT1s7SN1KTXJQP/vhGw+K3l6hGGvkNKa4CSasbr6jy2I 8+Iw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39l/buq7MPQdatiF4oNHvVqHzRdrZlOGRJu7tife7iBGoodPS3YNaeuZrTDd5omzycGtBMYh8/B3Gv8vCaVl X-Received: by 10.31.150.134 with SMTP id y128mr668592vkd.102.1488383490533; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 07:51:30 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.171.2 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 07:51:09 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <2646FC7F-A008-4A5F-8D33-4607D306B8AE@google.com> <3e733fa0-744b-28d8-28d2-dbf3ace3c8b3@si6networks.com> <74EF0172-F021-4941-92EE-76D11C3F9401@employees.org> <49a10ca2-6d6c-4d92-fffb-902e20566d9d@gmail.com> <58B6DBD9.4010402@foobar.org> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 00:51:09 +0900 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1141d6003e96f60549ad49fc Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 15:51:35 -0000 --001a1141d6003e96f60549ad49fc Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Philip Homburg wrote: > >otroan@employees.org wrote: > >> An off-link DHCP server advertising a default router address wouldn't > >> even have IP reachability to the default router address. It has no > >> effective way of updating a host's default router nor deal with > >> default router failure. Fate sharing etc. We've been through these > >> arguments so many times I don't see any purpose in rehashing all of > >> them. > > > >Please can we move past this particular canard? It is still as much of > >a straw man argument as it was when it was first suggested 15-20 years > >ago. > > Indeed. If this were such a big problem, somebody would have tried to > resurrect IPv4 Router Advertisement ICMPs (RFC 1256). IPv4 is a different problem. In IPv4, DHCP works fine because you never *need* to change anything, since you have NAT and VRRP. --001a1141d6003e96f60549ad49fc Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, Mar 1, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-6@u-1.ph= icoh.com> wrote:
>otroan@employees.org wrote:
>> An off-link DHCP server advertising a default router address would= n't
>> even have IP reachability to the default router address. It has no=
>> effective way of updating a host's default router nor deal wit= h
>> default router failure. Fate sharing etc. We've been through t= hese
>> arguments so many times I don't see any purpose in rehashing a= ll of
>> them.
>
>Please can we move past this particular canard?=C2=A0 It is still as mu= ch of
>a straw man argument as it was when it was first suggested 15-20 years<= br> >ago.

Indeed. If this were such a big problem, somebody would have tried t= o
resurrect IPv4 Router Advertisement ICMPs (RFC 1256).
=
--001a1141d6003e96f60549ad49fc-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 08:09:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2EE371295B3 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 08:09:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p_4C9LhTJzje for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 08:09:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1423A1295A8 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 08:09:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #127) id m1cj6ov-0000DrC; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 17:09:41 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <2646FC7F-A008-4A5F-8D33-4607D306B8AE@google.com> <3e733fa0-744b-28d8-28d2-dbf3ace3c8b3@si6networks.com> <74EF0172-F021-4941-92EE-76D11C3F9401@employees.org> <49a10ca2-6d6c-4d92-fffb-902e20566d9d@gmail.com> <58B6DBD9.4010402@foobar.org> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 2 Mar 2017 00:51:09 +0900 ." Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 17:09:40 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 16:09:46 -0000 >> Indeed. If this were such a big problem, somebody would have tried to >> resurrect IPv4 Router Advertisement ICMPs (RFC 1256). > >IPv4 is a different problem. In IPv4, DHCP works fine because you never >*need* to change anything, since you have NAT and VRRP. I have no idea how NAT is somehow better for default routers when IPv6 has link local. In any case, VRRP also works for IPv6. So maybe you can be more specific how IPv6 routers are less stable than IPv4? From nobody Wed Mar 1 10:55:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 73F16129663 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:55:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_DYNAMIC=1.08, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xP1Z3-r0oV0q for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB0E2129634 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:55:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0048589.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0048589.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v21IimQA045752 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:54:31 -0500 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0048589.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 28x3239uuw-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 13:54:31 -0500 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v21IsTfc022878 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:54:30 -0500 Received: from alpi132.aldc.att.com (alpi132.aldc.att.com [130.8.217.2]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v21IsOVQ022790 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:54:26 -0500 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAA.ITServices.sbc.com (GAALPA1MSGHUBAA.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.218.150]) by alpi132.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor) for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 18:54:08 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.76]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAA.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.150]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:54:08 -0500 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: IPv6 Operations Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) Thread-Index: AQHSkZqeJXtfx2zQsUS9QkmphL74M6F+iK2AgAACkoCAAABMgIAAA8wAgAAe0oCAAAN6gIAAEO6AgABmloCAAGavAIAAI5YAgAAFOoCAAASOgIAAAz8AgAAETgCAAAVbAIAAB6mAgABU1uA= Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 18:54:08 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DAD125D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> <163ebf4b-f3bc-b52c-91c7-6c90ce14d93a@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: <163ebf4b-f3bc-b52c-91c7-6c90ce14d93a@si6networks.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.192.179] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-01_13:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1612050000 definitions=main-1703010167 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 18:55:03 -0000 I guess I'll play and add my two cents. For CE ("average" user, mass market) routers, RFC 7084 makes support of RDN= SS *and* DHCPv6 stateless or stateful server to the LAN a MUST. As has been= pointed out, CE routers with IPv6 seem to be meeting these requirements ju= st fine. If all IPv6-capable CE routers are able to do this, then so are en= terprise routers. To suggest that because some enterprise router manufactur= ers still haven't implemented RDNSS, they shouldn't or can't be expected to= do so, is wrong.=20 This is working just fine in the world of mass market. Along come the enterprise networks.=20 If an enterprise wants to insist on only DHCPv6 (for IPv6 address and/or DN= S server addresses), then they will only be allowing connection by hosts th= at support DHCPv6.=20 If an enterprise wants to insist on only RDNSS and SLAAC, then they will on= ly be allowing connections by hosts that support these. If an enterprise has a router that doesn't do RDNSS, but they want RDNSS, t= hen they need to demand it. Apparently, Microsoft did, and got it. The enterprise controls the purchase of the enterprise router. Therefore, t= hey have the ability to influence it. The enterprise who controls what atta= ches to that router can dictate requirements for attaching hosts. The enter= prise who does not control what attaches, has no ability to control what at= taches. The enterprise who wants to let anything attach MUST support RDNSS and stat= eless-or-stateful DHCPv6. Just like CE routers. That is what it is. What if a host vendor (or host OS vendor) wants to provide hosts to DHCPv6-= only enterprises? They implement DHCPv6.=20 What if they don't care about such enterprises? Then they don't care.=20 Participants at IETF should not attempt to use IETF in an attempt to force = uncaring vendors to implement. The marketplace is the bully, not IETF. Eith= er the vendors see demand for the functionality, or they don't. Let the free market and human nature do their job. The necessary standards = exists. Barbara From nobody Wed Mar 1 10:56:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 038FF1297E8 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:56:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H2lZ1OxbhQ3E for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:56:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x232.google.com (mail-pg0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 454D6129889 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:56:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x232.google.com with SMTP id p5so23060069pga.1 for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 10:56:26 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=5OGFK8pj2hmxooQKaUGZrQgfQmLUOR1gSTW7OJDAMgA=; b=FkOrOWHIFNRNWbALMpoQXM3UxHjZGLseJYYDPP+gwXERL+xBZp1ZEUCAIEsGwtG8Ov nw2/R7XT7S+RUboz4E3lOienp+a7QBwjCUYfjDSDBgqSBtQxsdo20n37P0z1B3hYjSVv toPQPlySO01x7CsOlUzY1dHBW7HhGE0TvZU4hpTLDo/bkRUFtzPIV8UtohDmVX/rbtRB J/7PzCObWiJMO3Xd1EMEGZdYecCBEVbD/oA/ZIQjhy0Zt0QRGTeul1hdO6q5LcE6VipP BzydIWcBj3INi9x5JtTt5gtetNNheWBj8TG4f1r3pf70QaHi43Fmiz8K6yfSfmBq28y2 Gw9Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=5OGFK8pj2hmxooQKaUGZrQgfQmLUOR1gSTW7OJDAMgA=; b=JA05tSZMP0fY01Uo+ryLx2DCg9aqy/cgknVq1A6XIzpvNOX8YargkIHtRC0faQ5UCC zBl9LDiIfwCbRjFsaKjL959WW1P9QRqvzewsDILT77hNt338KPM/zmLQ60styr3DfEW6 rPCaNgGaOFG0cUx76QilK7xteMIdBixHA5CYF8YR55uNLfamK9ys6qoTrsDT/u5WpKki vsA9dnKhkAjhi3ubWV6ggRMVc52aMo3tiEFS07kyw1TOB+f+O5k7+RiTFYPQMT+ZkfoJ dJSGSn5UYUtP6eeZHtqn9mU1ZzCSJ3B8WQWb4aBC20Dh0OcfhgcXwm3oojYB+UktIi/J nK9A== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39mFsgQcFULwm9nWZCDbYDhq+DmniQU9csYc3IbGNE3xD/aeoZxS+fprNkKBYDTm4CUW X-Received: by 10.98.14.81 with SMTP id w78mr7466541pfi.9.1488394585375; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 10:56:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp-100-99-230-134.pao.corp.google.com ([100.99.230.134]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i10sm12100967pgd.37.2017.03.01.10.56.24 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 01 Mar 2017 10:56:24 -0800 (PST) From: james woodyatt Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4B72A399-20F1-48D7-B4B2-5596B42E6003" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 10:56:23 -0800 References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <2646FC7F-A008-4A5F-8D33-4607D306B8AE@google.com> <3e733fa0-744b-28d8-28d2-dbf3ace3c8b3@si6networks.com> <74EF0172-F021-4941-92EE-76D11C3F9401@employees.org> <49a10ca2-6d6c-4d92-fffb-902e20566d9d@gmail.com> To: IPv6 Operations In-Reply-To: Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 18:56:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4B72A399-20F1-48D7-B4B2-5596B42E6003 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Mar 1, 2017, at 00:15, otroan@employees.org wrote: >=20 > Why do we assume that the local network should even provide DNS = configuration? Because the Domain Name System (DNS) is an essential service of the = Internet. Allow me to provide a bit of history from memory in the hopes = it will explain how this particular assumption came to be established = here. =E2=80=94 Many years ago, when I was implementing the predecessor of RFC 6106, = while it was still an Internet Draft, I remember half-heartedly = proposing in 6MAN and here in V6OPS that the way host operating systems = needing automatic DNS server address configuration should cope with RA = messages with the O flag cleared by querying for the SRV record at = _dns._udp.local over mDNS. I was just about to start writing an Internet Draft to that effect when = various IETF participants here suggested there could be serious Security = Considerations there. (Never mind that DHCPv6 has the same Security = Consideration. We sort-of had DHCP Shield for that problem. There was no = mDNS Shield yet.) So I said, =E2=80=9CWhat should I do? The RA message says not to expect = any DHCPv6 service here. On the other hand, I have a perfectly sane = ad-hoc multicast service discovery protocol already defined to do this = in the event there is no DHCPv6 service. I=E2=80=99ve got to implement = something.=E2=80=9D And somebody said, =E2=80=9CWhat if we resurrect my old RDNSS draft?=E2=80= =9D And other people, including me, said, =E2=80=9CYeah, but is there an RA = Guard equivalent of DHCP Shield?=E2=80=9D And the answer to that was, =E2=80=9CWell, I guess we could publish that = draft too.=E2=80=9D And I said, =E2=80=9COkay, I can live with that." And so I implemented RDNSS in the router, and I helped get RDNSS = implemented in the hosts we cared most about. (I also needed to = implement Stateless DHCPv6 service in the router so that another = vendor=E2=80=99s hosts would get DNS information too. And that=E2=80=99s = why RFC 7084 says to do both.) =E2=80=94 Here=E2=80=99s really how we got into this mess: 1. we made DNS an essential service of the Internet; 2. then we made DHCPv6 the only way to configure hosts with DNS service = automatically; 3. and we made DHCPv6 optional by giving routers a way to say =E2=80=9Cthe= re is no DHCPv6 here." When we did that, we set ourselves up for having more than one way to = configure hosts with DNS configuration. One using DHCPv6, and another = for when DHCPv6 is not available. I can think of five (5) different IETF published Standards Track = protocols that are available for hosts to configure their DNS = information automatically: DHCPv6, RDNSS, mDNS-SD, SLP and CoRE-RD. I = can think of several more non-standard ones beyond those. Only one of those standard protocols is one that IPv6 hosts are = generally already required to implement: Router Discovery. It=E2=80=99s = perfectly okay with me if IETF publishes a BCP that says hosts with DNS = clients MUST be capable of processing RDNSS to configure their DNS = information automatically. Because they are generally required to = process RA messages to configure their IP service automatically. It = would be a very low impact requirement. I am opposed to dealing with this problem by telling host implementers = they MUST implement a DHCPv6 client, and they MUST use it even when RA = messages are telling them =E2=80=9Cthere is no DHCPv6 here,=E2=80=9D for = all the reasons I enumerated previously. --james woodyatt > --Apple-Mail=_4B72A399-20F1-48D7-B4B2-5596B42E6003 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On Mar 1, 2017, at 00:15, otroan@employees.org = wrote:

Why do we assume that the local network should = even provide DNS configuration?

Because the Domain Name = System (DNS) is an essential service of the Internet. Allow me to = provide a bit of history from memory in the hopes it will explain how = this particular assumption came to be established here.

=E2=80=94

Many years ago, when I = was implementing the predecessor of RFC 6106, while it was still an = Internet Draft, I remember half-heartedly proposing in 6MAN and here in = V6OPS that the way host operating systems needing automatic DNS server = address configuration should cope with RA messages with the O flag = cleared by querying for the SRV record at _dns._udp.local over = mDNS.

I was = just about to start writing an Internet Draft to that effect when = various IETF participants here suggested there could be serious Security = Considerations there. (Never mind that DHCPv6 has the same Security = Consideration. We sort-of had DHCP Shield for that problem. There was no = mDNS Shield yet.)

So I said, =E2=80=9CWhat should I do? The RA message says not = to expect any DHCPv6 service here. On the other hand, I have a perfectly = sane ad-hoc multicast service discovery protocol already defined to do = this in the event there is no DHCPv6 service. I=E2=80=99ve got to = implement something.=E2=80=9D

And somebody said, =E2=80=9CWhat if we = resurrect my old RDNSS draft?=E2=80=9D

And other people, including me, said, = =E2=80=9CYeah, but is there an RA Guard equivalent of DHCP = Shield?=E2=80=9D

And the answer to that was, =E2=80=9CWell, I guess we could = publish that draft too.=E2=80=9D

And I said, =E2=80=9COkay, I can live = with that."

And = so I implemented RDNSS in the router, and I helped get RDNSS implemented = in the hosts we cared most about. (I also needed to implement Stateless = DHCPv6 service in the router so that another vendor=E2=80=99s hosts = would get DNS information too. And that=E2=80=99s why RFC 7084 says to = do both.)

=E2=80=94

Here=E2=80=99s really how we got into this mess:

1. we made DNS an = essential service of the Internet;

2. then we made DHCPv6 the only way to = configure hosts with DNS service automatically;

3. and we made DHCPv6 optional by = giving routers a way to say =E2=80=9Cthere is no DHCPv6 here."

When we did that, we set = ourselves up for having more than one way to configure hosts with DNS = configuration. One using DHCPv6, and another for when DHCPv6 is not = available.

I = can think of five (5) different IETF published Standards Track protocols = that are available for hosts to configure their DNS information = automatically: DHCPv6, RDNSS, mDNS-SD, SLP and CoRE-RD. I can think of = several more non-standard ones beyond those.

Only one of those standard protocols is = one that IPv6 hosts are generally already required to implement: Router = Discovery. It=E2=80=99s perfectly okay with me if IETF publishes a BCP = that says hosts with DNS clients MUST be capable of processing RDNSS to = configure their DNS information automatically. Because they are = generally required to process RA messages to configure their IP service = automatically. It would be a very low impact requirement.

I am opposed to dealing = with this problem by telling host implementers they MUST implement a = DHCPv6 client, and they MUST use it even when RA messages are telling = them =E2=80=9Cthere is no DHCPv6 here,=E2=80=9D for all the reasons I = enumerated previously.


--james woodyatt <jhw@google.com>



= --Apple-Mail=_4B72A399-20F1-48D7-B4B2-5596B42E6003-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 11:15:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B38E1129892 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:15:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2dnQ8Zmrwz9Z for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:15:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [81.174.135.208]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DEC78129890 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:15:25 -0800 (PST) X-Quarantine-ID: <4A6ifTY7A48b> X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk X-Amavis-Alert: BAD HEADER SECTION, Header line longer than 998 characters: References: <14[...] Received: from simons-macbookpro.lan (magpiehouse.plus.com [80.229.10.150]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5FF801BC92 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 19:15:17 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DAD125D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 19:15:15 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <577A2F7C-C22A-4C1B-A4AD-FE39D3D348F7@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> <163ebf4 b-f3bc-b52c-91c7-6c90ce14d93a@si6networks.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DAD125D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 19:15:28 -0000 "STARK, BARBARA H" wrote: > Let the free market and human nature do their job. The necessary = standards exists. To a point. To throw my 2d in, there are several "but"s to that. 1 - As a small business (as my employer is) we have no clout with the = vendors. For a business the size of Microsoft, to be told "we want this = or you don't get our business" s enough to make them listen. If we = (wearing my hat as a network admin for a small IT services business) try = that, they are probably going to be in "did someone say something ? Nah" = because individually we don't matter. In practice we can't even talk to = them because most of the big ones won't talk to small businesses = directly. 2 - The next one is that for many small businesses, we probably don't = know that we need to ask the question until we are trying to figure out = why things "aren't working" - and by then the vendor has got their = money. The end result is likely to be a significant reinforcement that = "IPv6 is just too difficult". 3 - And lastly, unless the standards specifically state that both|all = methods "must" be supported, then vendors can continue with the = misdirection that they support all required RFCs/protocols - thus = leading to inexperienced buyers continuing to buy their stuff - see item = 2 ! So I think that if it's determined that for all reasonable combinations = of equipment to work that certain types of kit needs to support certain = RFCs/protocols - then that needs to be stated as a "must". Without that, = vendors are free to do "half a job" and still claim compliance - and = others have already ex[pressed what that means in terms of whether you = can reasonably expect to plug something in and have it work.= From nobody Wed Mar 1 11:17:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7DDBC129892 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:17:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.352 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.352 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j7zeCCpgW0vA for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:17:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A8E58129682 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:17:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v21JHfuK028165 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:17:41 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 70C09209B00 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:17:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67BDA209ACD for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:17:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v21JHf13025888 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:17:41 +0100 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <2646FC7F-A008-4A5F-8D33-4607D306B8AE@google.com> <3e733fa0-744b-28d8-28d2-dbf3ace3c8b3@si6networks.com> <74EF0172-F021-4941-92EE-76D11C3F9401@employees.org> <49a10ca2-6d6c-4d92-fffb-902e20566d9d@gmail.com> <58B6DBD9.4010402@foobar.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:17:47 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 19:17:46 -0000 Le 01/03/2017 15:47, Philip Homburg a crit : >> otroan@employees.org wrote: >>> An off-link DHCP server advertising a default router address wouldn't >>> even have IP reachability to the default router address. It has no >>> effective way of updating a host's default router nor deal with >>> default router failure. Fate sharing etc. We've been through these >>> arguments so many times I don't see any purpose in rehashing all of >>> them. >> >> Please can we move past this particular canard? It is still as much of >> a straw man argument as it was when it was first suggested 15-20 years >> ago. > > Indeed. If this were such a big problem, somebody would have tried to > resurrect IPv4 Router Advertisement ICMPs (RFC 1256). We use IPv4 Router Advertisements in 802.11-OCB settings to facilitate handovers in IPv4-only networks. > Surprisingly, the only time the inability to update default routers is > mentioned, is when somebody tries to prevent that feature from getting added > to ICMPv6. > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Wed Mar 1 11:41:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 316F9129683 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:41:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ob2v0QwlWN3N for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB75D129676 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:41:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2017 19:41:29 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B27DD788B; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:41:29 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=l6OWlJaQfUsOoLPX7rfP6Tep1I4=; b= olLV/jhAFWvE22m+12zPMHBH1cCAnZ2EXhzZnaoXiQhkFZ4Y46m3qhRMFukYGFFi 2F2RWlDr0qOvT+pa+TXzBSMyCaPoCqxXoSzP9CXj5Y6EHB8eDKzpv/tqapOGF4XD r/gg0ctwmDeP2G+fQfSb4cRIj8eD9y8EcTow5l1uklg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=FVEdQAsD6DDvr8BD6ykOsS9 4CSl9L2wMnIRdApZbz63Kd09fd4U21tRZbWD4w+zHx7D4NrYdKSnGZSw0UrTV1zg zO3YhFJ6v0L9f6hKOb9BeXfgpyMZ0DGaIp9D0RKpXPtIP323z6oiwQcLvo2QcLs6 L3P0zOCo6wQVE9mCB/nw= Received: from h.hanazo.no (96.51-175-103.customer.lyse.net [51.175.103.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CA2A2D788A; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:41:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E6BC91E5952; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:41:26 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <1A390EF1-84B3-4B09-8B13-BC92C052D4B7@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9558A7EA-034C-4EF4-B68A-A3B139157537"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:41:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: To: james woodyatt References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <2646FC7F-A008-4A5F-8D33-4607D306B8AE@google.com> <3e733fa0-744b-28d8-28d2-dbf3ace3c8b3@si6networks.com> <74EF0172-F021-4941-92EE-76D11C3F9401@employees.org> <49a10ca2-6d6c-4d92-fffb-902e20566d9d@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 19:41:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9558A7EA-034C-4EF4-B68A-A3B139157537 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 James, Thanks for the summary. There is also more here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-ipngwg-dns-discovery-analysis-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc4339 The reason I questioned the assumption is because of the information = leakage associated with a recursive resolver. Using the recursive resolver offered by the network, means you entrust = the network with every DNS query you make. Does that make sense for the FreePublicWIFI at the airport, the coffee = shop, the home CPE, or the Enterprise? Apart from running a resolving server on the host and doing DNS over = DTLS I'm not sure how to resolve that. Perhaps the local network must provide a recursive resolver, but the = practice of using it for all queries by default is perhaps something we = should wean ourselves off. Ole > On 1 Mar 2017, at 19:56, james woodyatt wrote: >=20 > On Mar 1, 2017, at 00:15, otroan@employees.org wrote: >>=20 >> Why do we assume that the local network should even provide DNS = configuration? >=20 > Because the Domain Name System (DNS) is an essential service of the = Internet. Allow me to provide a bit of history from memory in the hopes = it will explain how this particular assumption came to be established = here. >=20 > =E2=80=94 >=20 > Many years ago, when I was implementing the predecessor of RFC 6106, = while it was still an Internet Draft, I remember half-heartedly = proposing in 6MAN and here in V6OPS that the way host operating systems = needing automatic DNS server address configuration should cope with RA = messages with the O flag cleared by querying for the SRV record at = _dns._udp.local over mDNS. >=20 > I was just about to start writing an Internet Draft to that effect = when various IETF participants here suggested there could be serious = Security Considerations there. (Never mind that DHCPv6 has the same = Security Consideration. We sort-of had DHCP Shield for that problem. = There was no mDNS Shield yet.) >=20 > So I said, =E2=80=9CWhat should I do? The RA message says not to = expect any DHCPv6 service here. On the other hand, I have a perfectly = sane ad-hoc multicast service discovery protocol already defined to do = this in the event there is no DHCPv6 service. I=E2=80=99ve got to = implement something.=E2=80=9D >=20 > And somebody said, =E2=80=9CWhat if we resurrect my old RDNSS = draft?=E2=80=9D >=20 > And other people, including me, said, =E2=80=9CYeah, but is there an = RA Guard equivalent of DHCP Shield?=E2=80=9D >=20 > And the answer to that was, =E2=80=9CWell, I guess we could publish = that draft too.=E2=80=9D >=20 > And I said, =E2=80=9COkay, I can live with that." >=20 > And so I implemented RDNSS in the router, and I helped get RDNSS = implemented in the hosts we cared most about. (I also needed to = implement Stateless DHCPv6 service in the router so that another = vendor=E2=80=99s hosts would get DNS information too. And that=E2=80=99s = why RFC 7084 says to do both.) >=20 > =E2=80=94 >=20 > Here=E2=80=99s really how we got into this mess: >=20 > 1. we made DNS an essential service of the Internet; >=20 > 2. then we made DHCPv6 the only way to configure hosts with DNS = service automatically; >=20 > 3. and we made DHCPv6 optional by giving routers a way to say =E2=80=9Ct= here is no DHCPv6 here." >=20 > When we did that, we set ourselves up for having more than one way to = configure hosts with DNS configuration. One using DHCPv6, and another = for when DHCPv6 is not available. >=20 > I can think of five (5) different IETF published Standards Track = protocols that are available for hosts to configure their DNS = information automatically: DHCPv6, RDNSS, mDNS-SD, SLP and CoRE-RD. I = can think of several more non-standard ones beyond those. >=20 > Only one of those standard protocols is one that IPv6 hosts are = generally already required to implement: Router Discovery. It=E2=80=99s = perfectly okay with me if IETF publishes a BCP that says hosts with DNS = clients MUST be capable of processing RDNSS to configure their DNS = information automatically. Because they are generally required to = process RA messages to configure their IP service automatically. It = would be a very low impact requirement. >=20 > I am opposed to dealing with this problem by telling host implementers = they MUST implement a DHCPv6 client, and they MUST use it even when RA = messages are telling them =E2=80=9Cthere is no DHCPv6 here,=E2=80=9D for = all the reasons I enumerated previously. >=20 >=20 > --james woodyatt >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --Apple-Mail=_9558A7EA-034C-4EF4-B68A-A3B139157537 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYtyPlAAoJEL7aWKiYQt920AkP/2wg+ybx9gByJEjwYLFNLGPK oKFk7SYR52v/43NgTVFYSanNsevGAT5RAR/tZU5MmEcqRj2nEPvDboQtX90wguah DukTr79kicmGCT902Ju3S8Q4P5ZAoCUpbZE3hFf712ztgXZmkkAAdV2oKRbK3npC z7KGQP1jGs7b2vMKq6851wckf/vNkU6/y+n2D/2rq3RZAK/NyH4xJU7GBYqZRHiW t3Zk3nW1aObrXFqbX6rtIzenuHok3srkUsv8EFfE34KWhrc3FZvYDORTY9QVBcg2 uW/XB+/pOx3hQ/IZ5hSHO2tn+kzcB3EIWlEDhWvZVnhe4CIriprqEcNbMsCT1CJN 5Gx8jtLoAGjt+P6HoobMzouhK9OmMQakMdAF/djFu/Q5P3evbXBcyc8R9ZYoR9Zr ZoQwOORZfxgix471neTXF+y6i9xA06VKAQuMBsA/qjfeko8g9OueAEnn/KS9wAd/ 22prn+wuVsrxhdSt7w6c14qhIo3JRQpl3RBQXvv9xzWITqZ5XcCTG1pAOJdPwStY gMD6TH8MjnPxN7NbjLnKZXWwYov62I/ucg1XSRpeXMmobnziZT5h27ddQuPAOnus dcGBx5cBv1ovZl/aweXRJ3hIVllvcrTG9ZyETCouUx3jp0HPKpIoWGn28eJD1ggO 4X/VOFITKinaJjCg8W00 =772V -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9558A7EA-034C-4EF4-B68A-A3B139157537-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 11:44:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E76F812896F for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:44:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F868v2NUyfBw for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:44:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C34CB1293D6 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 11:44:27 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A4628619A9 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:44:18 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EFBB60046; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:44:18 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 6131370B27; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:44:18 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:44:18 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Lorenzo Colitti Message-ID: <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> References: <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fFmpUxNhRUaMb1p2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Cc: Fernando Gont , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 19:44:30 -0000 --fFmpUxNhRUaMb1p2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Wed, Mar 01, 2017 at 11:00:34AM +0900, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Wed, Mar 1, 2017 at 4:53 AM, Gert Doering wrote: >=20 > > So, they cannot reasonably implement what should have been the default > > for new deployments years ago, and need to add IPv4 purely because IETF > > failed to very clearly mandate what router and host OS vendors need to > > provide, so a network can run v6-only today... > > >=20 > Why do you say they "cannot" implement it? There is nothing stopping a > network from supporting both stateless DHCPv6 and RDNSS. Many residential > gateways do this today, and those often aren't high-margin implementation= s. >=20 > Saying "hosts must implement both stateless DHCPv6 and RDNSS so that > networks can choose to implement only one" is one way to solve this > problem. Saying "networks should support both stateless DHCPv6 and RDNSS = so > that hosts can choose to implement only one" is another. You are blissfully ignoring the part where I described how we entered this mess - two major vendors ignoring half the stuff users would expect to find implemented, one on the host OS side, one on the network device side. And you very stubbornly insist that everyone *else* should fix the mess that this host OS vendor is causing. Right? Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --fFmpUxNhRUaMb1p2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAli3JJEACgkQ31bAZeTO f8XA2RAAjoRCb2haKMK3p8YtuGDtudK7jOYuPmmIY1xy2Q5I30QAcxeKlROfUIr4 xEnz9t3ZEuSMG8wg1VHBY8sL+/x5QdH2ydPVmva410fjnF/jOoH4eT/YIxL7z3GM XeBr/DOcarD8OAIYXpBA/cpPUsS7VpikEmpvwa8CMvQiU0IxNg+VyMapNKv/t6Fm GNdfXQxTMxKeZxhC24YUE/2v5udF/HAybjycO32s6I6EePBlAzFQDo2GMdMYzIV8 qckVTWNZXqG+2szzzPegzrb7R3E6at68cBwsoa5oLZKIYGhgsczSfNNra6wyq/li 4kpRaKQtNMJqzRuwNSsi3aIXeU0/F5WEiqV+EBmrHGOam6sxS4iG/vo8ojEcJn4E o65eudAai7k0J+6kJBreJSnsdwSjpeqtFzxoyrMtaVptBpKejuJ7x/wcR9PEcQZL AaGHpC+HfpPcUgD35Lm8SzZABrzI6gOTueRZdtZdgUbKqWdRDDJjcj6V8YNzXUk0 o9HYpDFIQ6p2Hf+ceHoxmit1gVWZL6Md6nmJZ0Ym54oTNZarqdCF0JoW0anE4YWr 83+b3s8EmDga8Ak++DCLrow3mtNImYIWJeWSDYP9IyKVdt7GfvF6YsBvHtX9YYhZ jZq9HpyX0v2hWJKQCVxO36X2ALZHs6QdhuHKdjD6F2GvAlO5uAM= =DWen -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fFmpUxNhRUaMb1p2-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 12:23:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 605BB1294B6 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:23:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EpsMSakkSDg5 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:23:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x233.google.com (mail-qk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C47CB1298D0 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:23:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id n127so89937710qkf.0 for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 12:23:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=EPcZLVDdJW9wPmJf7je+ANlawA9QG9QGAVoYzFiDFT0=; b=XjnulMjOfXgGW3OPR9qtTdC7z2pLPCVa9YnhEIY0+WPN3sSmxaCjylRBFIiF0B4JjH 8vGxpfEXevEVfEGZ1WVsK+1aqgmYC5ugrOgF4hyvzYFDD+jLAzG9NqgMg2DoQ2L59SKk hKgXKefcvL//8yx3HPMNsqkGFB0bzLnh8Dh20I11BsYWYBaTcFnqRVDwVDfuY/uDXKAu OeI7l9F0SxpNAvDxJuM5b/GxXCRDswnerpE2GVdM0litldlZc3MZbo7kogMu3ZM7wUGb uBUMhe3GQzZlQ0Sw1In+o6d0OVfu4tXW9jdIWBamuvPmx0Gwmd5+YuiOfARzA53TnNAI rq6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=EPcZLVDdJW9wPmJf7je+ANlawA9QG9QGAVoYzFiDFT0=; b=WbeNXH1iaY91BY3BpBJmNLZ9XpYqDnzy3NbZRcjT2s2vyDC3zaz62oqsNO+AYj3fF2 Gop9d+MJuTEjv7NHEBMsGypwSOKSVmYYrsJZco+eolOKPeVZJsZb8G3FlPu+ArnXye8i yhoTRWKC509xn6lI4ER+PM2Mc6ADF0HwjHbAd3ikvPEbfzCteImTfWxa4ebHRkRgGDbn Qu16tahylQZDVNYdc0zoJVrFA1bRWaR/joFWoxTgwjHu5GiciXwfvBvKZbmlyS07eAaV J5UYbjCtHjMT/z0R3sOjrmK5BDDRKAkMgxAjA68nCMrs8zcEgL5uJFERjw+t/JpoHtiM 0Yeg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39m6d+mwVQ7HJENndwtRtktxPqwqUBCMvSC9hmoMiJd6OTCD+9xo533Hu/xg43rTuw== X-Received: by 10.237.42.194 with SMTP id t60mr13104188qtd.269.1488399820860; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 12:23:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.0.20.202] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s75sm3885673qka.36.2017.03.01.12.23.39 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 01 Mar 2017 12:23:39 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6A9CD216-F8FC-4F6B-9566-EB09800A56DB" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 15:23:38 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> To: Gert Doering References: <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: Fernando Gont , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 20:23:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6A9CD216-F8FC-4F6B-9566-EB09800A56DB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Mar 1, 2017, at 2:44 PM, Gert Doering wrote: > You are blissfully ignoring the part where I described how we entered > this mess - two major vendors ignoring half the stuff users would = expect > to find implemented, one on the host OS side, one on the network = device > side. >=20 > And you very stubbornly insist that everyone *else* should fix the = mess > that this host OS vendor is causing. Right? Woah, which is it? Is it the host vendor? Is it the router vendor? = How did you get from two major vendors ignoring half the stuff the users = would expect, and it being solely the host vendor's fault? Not that = I'm interested in whose fault it is=E2=80=94I'm just asking what missing = ??? there is in here that led from paragraph 1 to paragraph 2. --Apple-Mail=_6A9CD216-F8FC-4F6B-9566-EB09800A56DB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On Mar 1, 2017, at 2:44 PM, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> = wrote:
You are blissfully ignoring the part where I = described how we entered
this mess - two major vendors ignoring = half the stuff users would expect
to find implemented, one on the = host OS side, one on the network device
side.

And you very stubbornly insist = that everyone *else* should fix the mess
that this host OS vendor is = causing.  Right?

Woah, which is it?   Is it the host vendor?   Is it = the router vendor?   How did you get from two major vendors = ignoring half the stuff the users would expect, and it being solely the = host vendor's fault?   Not that I'm interested in whose fault it = is=E2=80=94I'm just asking what missing ??? there is in here that led = from paragraph 1 to paragraph 2.

= --Apple-Mail=_6A9CD216-F8FC-4F6B-9566-EB09800A56DB-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 12:27:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F3E812995F for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:27:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3-0s8wmEm9XZ for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:27:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90A23129956 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:27:48 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DEEF61A35 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:27:47 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4B6661A29; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:27:46 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id B62FD70DD3; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:27:46 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:27:46 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Ted Lemon Message-ID: <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> References: <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="vT5V4qjrwX0530wr" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Cc: Fernando Gont , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 20:27:50 -0000 --vT5V4qjrwX0530wr Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Wed, Mar 01, 2017 at 03:23:38PM -0500, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 1, 2017, at 2:44 PM, Gert Doering wrote: > > You are blissfully ignoring the part where I described how we entered > > this mess - two major vendors ignoring half the stuff users would expect > > to find implemented, one on the host OS side, one on the network device > > side. > >=20 > > And you very stubbornly insist that everyone *else* should fix the mess > > that this host OS vendor is causing. Right? >=20 > Woah, which is it? Is it the host vendor? Is it the router vendor? = =20 Both, of course. > How did you get from two major vendors ignoring half the stuff the users= =20 > would expect, and it being solely the host vendor's fault? =20 That was mostly turning around Lorenzo's argument that there is no problem in Android if the network can just be made to provide RDNSS. Which, while factually true, does not help anyone. But yeah, let's just rely on DHCPv4 forever. No problem. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --vT5V4qjrwX0530wr Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAli3LsEACgkQ31bAZeTO f8UJEA/+Oqe+AAjbD7UF3LaeYLOOKKOaFNN6ggGn1AQVQ1Pu0XIaVeJu8h6IhHgY 35ZWD+Ny44NuHLkGLYUTadSX+AsM66o6Ra8cUN+XIxg1tT6WagZsphlr7+s4Thdd 8LwEPb92b/vK0o48bDLbEU5G5CxqLHe0gJtFwuVYBKKlj0NcHpwVb4r8Ah9iBpM8 /IxbjuP5hV8Xc8WMPoZxYNJ0VHGBhUoSlzaOLq4KnHUnoakC3PO+1spaY6rqn6i6 rX/Wz1ghjVa1trF2dNuFePjkE5e8rPu6RIk2r4lge4ENcLvuXBxtFMc1A/FS4C/p z8aMUwuZF2H1TDGkRs9Pfo+gO6cb7BAGRe1ofmDewzIsUdBCgjEXPkAhbUWMwaZ6 h+qIaJ536roUVlG/NF3tyO9781vm8TeT+fuzt66NmoUPP7o4Ru4OrbEivzGd0gik y4M2QfmbVwP1l8JtjW6/czTat9N/MhVC5iLrImH6l87/saaCSj/tbwpwAr5hL6SF BZdxjtpe4jPUJXe1Fps6RIkIOEnxQLAUdkYjp3f7phduQnaF61vDEwm9t7GN6Fb7 BF/Bcd+Z0NI2g/oHKHhxzX41jNTGg5T7h6zjmUQ4mfpYr7ZIxkva8LKS8IeYXfGa st/sFCnT8rgkvR+N1u95Qgf8/iSeDxxyVCP1YZRy+oZm9BkO400= =qsIL -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --vT5V4qjrwX0530wr-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 12:37:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1E1312969B for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:36:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tGfF7jVydH-Q for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:36:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7A71126BF7 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:36:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 01 Mar 2017 20:36:57 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D777D788F; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:36:57 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=4VhaX3JDPKZFg6vQJlmzhBo961g=; b= TfLSPIVDdupbmpWNf5FZCuQUdhkIEvReeebSxe3z7PAc7js8NXLJLkOeCszx/GWa Zrcxkjwg5gQtcA4Dh+mpcWFXLWMlZ3iEqCtMEVxkmPWtMeoxXYBOM+edVFcAh8tu au6jX3Jx2FPlQejSJdY3BGUzn00MrDSfSw0T/Axy35s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=JaOh24XRgMaB/mzG4r+4oAG Kf+Gy+I1L6J0MJKE1lM1jgG38x4hw3yahlVYrXxzQKo0YyTFe+aKYG/SljbLo2Ow j5qUE7QY9V6OWvWNpbJvEPi5xZVm8LnYK8MnlYdnrQLwCG2Q8tM4H5bWNYR8Ut1A Gks8i+fqHYm5bX/UF0AI= Received: from h.hanazo.no (96.51-175-103.customer.lyse.net [51.175.103.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 41940D788B; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:36:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4538391E6541; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:36:55 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_18791A51-B487-4FD9-8100-780DE8E7DAAE"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:36:54 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> To: Gert Doering References: <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: Fernando Gont , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 20:37:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_18791A51-B487-4FD9-8100-780DE8E7DAAE Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> Woah, which is it? Is it the host vendor? Is it the router = vendor? >=20 > Both, of course. >=20 >> How did you get from two major vendors ignoring half the stuff the = users >> would expect, and it being solely the host vendor's fault? >=20 > That was mostly turning around Lorenzo's argument that there is no = problem > in Android if the network can just be made to provide RDNSS. Which, = while > factually true, does not help anyone. If you were to have networks offering the same information both via RA = and DHCP, then you're bound to end up in situations where the = information passed is out of sync, and you have hosts getting confused. = Hosts supporting both on networks supporting both are probably already = confused. Here are two ways we can get out of the bind: 1) Complimentary: Remove redundant options between RA and DHCP. I.e. = remove DNS options from DHCP. 2) Competing: Add everything missing in one to the other. And a network = MUST only support one of the protocols. A good part of this is caused by our inability to solve the service = discovery problem. Ole --Apple-Mail=_18791A51-B487-4FD9-8100-780DE8E7DAAE Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYtzDnAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92/HQP/3EiJEwG4g/8cieExT9SrC2i fpFJwmvY7WkFyshkqd3ERG05L4ibWDmM49G9L7o46MqkxuOlFlVOYQiKmieWHeG+ ZSwuHrj3J3E1oOr+fpV9UszwDQspUNeXEMuYmYkS4m4UwlsQl1YLvo9dj4bH3cnA QGL7EVQESt1HcSU3jBvr7HOJhKk1lq8DrjLrP47AhV6C7ajzITM143GwRF25YCbb l9xmhErcQU+3zzwN26tZxkzUMglIXqihuru5DxYZXyUkUmt4RMac4juMgeFrQs53 prlnhpQE/ojXrh/h/t0L1FdFI7S459Ipiol8WJnVJjT7DQBMQTKcrYw/ZJqGYcQr phYOR4rqSvmmHyGyys+zpyrhhAcCGE/xfjCgGHM5QCOeK29VUj+MZkVkugKmxt2j 6XOtqB+GiM1aUE9FcWlkRi5pdGeN4HfWzjF3PraL26nAxsWgpbyyIrsY8Z9wHCuJ q3/9v2BylvzBN3TRl0l6bTn/JLcbz3R3Co4bKwpzu7IXogiPvcLNxAxrPtEQwaJv N0LscsvBlwiQVyZyrPKOBfONY3k3Wm+KqiceO+nRLYyfYIiEI3za1rgyFOvx/vRG VpD7BxxFyciwXJNlmzpxnkdVjecry2ZggS+Zf0tHDiDly3zAKDCyCwAGHXXedg6p GHt9JRL3BwwLSfEz+KsK =C6mK -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_18791A51-B487-4FD9-8100-780DE8E7DAAE-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 12:37:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D82F7126579 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:37:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Mwea2yuxxF8c for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:37:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [81.174.135.208]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CA285129963 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 12:37:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from simons-macbookpro.lan (magpiehouse.plus.com [80.229.10.150]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5CB531BC92 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:37:03 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: <1A390EF1-84B3-4B09-8B13-BC92C052D4B7@employees.org> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 20:37:00 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <71CF098C-85B4-439C-A6A0-1080262B4DEF@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <2646FC7F-A008-4A5F-8D33-4607D306B8AE@google.com> <3e733fa0-744b-28d8-28d2-dbf3ace3c8b3@si6networks.com> <74EF0172-F021-4941-92EE-76D11C3F9401@employees.org> <49a10ca2-6d6c-4d92-fffb-902e20566d9d@gmail.com> <1A390EF1-84B3-4B09-8B13-BC92C052D4B7@employees.org> To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 20:37:13 -0000 otroan@employees.org wrote: > Apart from running a resolving server on the host and doing DNS over = DTLS I'm not sure how to resolve that. Indeed, and don't forget that the network operator can pretty well see = everything we do even without looking at the DNS queries. Sticking just = to web, they can see every site we visit simply by sniffing the HTTP[S] = packets. Even with SSL they can see that - either there's SNI in = cleartext stating the hostname we want, or each site has a separate IP = (pre-SNI config). Though it is true that it's a lot easier to just look at the DNS logs. > Perhaps the local network must provide a recursive resolver, but the > practice of using it for all queries by default is perhaps something = we should wean ourselves off. And while it's off-topic for this thread ... got any suggestions ? I = think we're stuck with DNS as it stands, I'd put your chances of = persuading the whole world to rip it up and replace it as "exceedingly = slim" ! Lets face it, SMTP is much more broken as people (or at least, = big organisations) seem happy to keep applying more layers of duct-tape = to try and cover the cracks. And as you say, short of running some sort of encrypted tunnel to your = own (or a trusted) DNS server, there's not a lot you can do to hide the = traffic. You always have the option of firing up a VPN and stuffing all traffic = down that if you are sufficiently paranoid.= From nobody Wed Mar 1 13:08:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88EB91296B2 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:08:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C25eTPCqunML for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:08:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [81.174.135.208]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3D00127076 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:08:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from simons-macbookpro.lan (magpiehouse.plus.com [80.229.10.150]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E2FCD1A073 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:08:22 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> Date: Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:08:21 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 21:08:30 -0000 otroan@employees.org wrote: > If you were to have networks offering the same information both via RA = and DHCP, then you're bound to end up in situations where the = information passed is out of sync, ... Isn't that just another case of "admins can screw up a network" ? I can = put an incorrect address in a DHCP config, and always have been able to, = and the client is broken ! That's just part of being a network admin - not putting stupid values in = your configs, or at least if you do then have a means of spotting it = before the users complain ;-) From nobody Wed Mar 1 13:16:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0CA051295DE for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:16:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZA4BAhAcOFH8 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:16:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua0-x22f.google.com (mail-ua0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B392F1295C8 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:16:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id 72so54682808uaf.3 for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 13:16:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6k2FwSzPgAAoDQwebCJJ4X3WlMDhPBHIvrZEAULwxAo=; b=hLRiDJluAcGmB+woq6K9CDO9z4zEEj+iNUCrvaczq8R8l6g5OMC5jMLx4Nic2zJtXi sevAOLv5rSdC+2UfSJOXZaAmT1984+8p8NPP5NzpZjyrPilb+ykPfehqpbl6VrWCakum MWweKmxYC59igcerec4b4k5rq6BjMOeOebAmBMFsl05YhGTplmIIYIzKtBN1V0rB/w5n lXT3STVJDlntejt/IZdOF5NJyujAeycu8WxcrnvFghsy838mC76+EBnwOiczikOS1/4t fU6zzw4WQCLcA3fhPEojy7jvJnGCMoZvzo+0fSyotUZNccVn0ejrORRrUGsKIR4fcT8i 7xXA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6k2FwSzPgAAoDQwebCJJ4X3WlMDhPBHIvrZEAULwxAo=; b=O0SAZxh7TrocA3LDtalUR30GqPkSCWDM0I7Lzk31dONmpkVPCMk79r4S3Qo67BJcpg hOJ+CTfbHyrbIMaCAMP/IleT4ZNuLk2yuWimmrfle8DPsg2StttXVNqbuC00B9CWIx4a qZh3ZIZ5MvbT/NpSthIy1ECYKdt/JWu3AH5duxPtObTWXpv8K/0IFPUOnTMRxh33OgTg tF8hPJfv+G9ekraDVbA2cpGS3RIGsWgk4MiWTXIxAbnx6pa8ijbpiRIblvPhHu5LZpQg fh3IFYDwGfUZciFT4kGyBVCL0pF1FZV3ur+J+46exPJRRRGoJdWEMwS5g/trBgtwPHS4 yZLg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39n4hTU0xpG5A56E8X2x9rz+aR0UBoKTB2QCd+x7bHqbCBLWM/EnyBismcjxRX0yi/s472gZeuDHT0ps+Q== X-Received: by 10.176.23.89 with SMTP id k25mr4396294uaf.49.1488402961878; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 13:16:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.38.2 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:16:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.159.38.2 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:16:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:16:00 +1100 Message-ID: To: Lorenzo Colitti Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f40304361e12d35aa40549b1d1e6 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 21:16:04 -0000 --f40304361e12d35aa40549b1d1e6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 1 Mar. 2017 21:31, "Lorenzo Colitti" wrote: On 1 Mar 2017 7:25 pm, "Mark Smith" wrote: Can you explain why you didn't list: (d) support both? That's what millions of home routers do today. Enterprise routers don't, going by the Microsoft article. https://blog.apnic.net/2017/01/19/ipv6-only-at-microsoft/ If you read the Microsoft blog post you'll see that when it was written they were already testing vendor code that had RDNSS support. Upgrading hosts is much easier than upgrading networks. Microsoft has the pull to get something added like that and the budget to upgrade their infrastructure very regularly, so they're not going to face the issue of equipment that isn't current enough to have new features added. Organisations whose network budgets are measured in units of 1000s don't have that influence. "So, is all this trouble worth it? Hopefully." What a sad, sad question and a sad, sad answer, 19 years after the publication of RFC2460. --f40304361e12d35aa40549b1d1e6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 1 Mar. 2017 21:31, "Lorenzo Colitti" <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:
On 1 Mar 20= 17 7:25 pm, "Mark Smith" <markzzzsmith@gmail.com> wrote:
Ca= n you explain why you didn't list:

(d) support= both? That's what millions of home routers do today.
=

Enterprise routers don't, going by the Microsoft article.=


If you read the Microsoft blog post you'll see that when it was writte= n they were already testing vendor code that had RDNSS support.

= Upgrading hosts is much easier than upgrading networks.

Microsoft has the pull to get something added like that and the budget to = upgrade their infrastructure very regularly, so they're not going to fa= ce the issue of equipment that isn't current enough to have new feature= s added. Organisations whose network budgets are measured in units of 1000s= don't have that influence.

"So, is all this trouble worth it?

Hopefu= lly."

What a sad, sad question and a sad, sad answe= r, 19 years after the publication of RFC2460.



--f40304361e12d35aa40549b1d1e6-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 13:26:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD8711296C4 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:26:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.497 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.497 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id StPS9HlUiWMk for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:26:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua0-x231.google.com (mail-ua0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38DFB127076 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:26:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua0-x231.google.com with SMTP id c11so5612441uaa.0 for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 13:26:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=0v1GuOnG/gy/wgKDJ/ZbWTvzf2hsN3nbMU6/1GdQf7U=; b=Hn2UQUVJTdyUXtFq2LBv4roflx5dVZx46RZSKYnIj+I9yfuNleGFhrov5e1mmw+WX0 CNYdODMKSVA+hnQS5/GNhpPtw1wYdXiiYLNUi0+kA5i2FYiA9RmLaRuN9kupKuqxm8TN hBabF/NERJ92oJfPvMXFys17ROUH4Q6LDxmDyPNs/B0DUTAf65ZMnW6IK2V9cEWQTc9J cZRExTHkdSMUyxMa3hOOZfl1Ht0V6ZmrLO1Rcl4pIZUnljKljw7oKHhQfdPEarOHs9xO LbqKbpLByoQIoxPkOA4MXleBZhfbFYevuI5Y14xkjgiBxtcpnrLNrTqtgcaXOsBcc7Ot daPA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0v1GuOnG/gy/wgKDJ/ZbWTvzf2hsN3nbMU6/1GdQf7U=; b=RxadnRfN8vaCCavtlX0vSk7vx68vstdxSofaOAPXnzlUMxkgu5UwY15+ezutff5baO K2qU/WBZWHk+3RK7UlhTtIGmPq/Dy8ZROG4ZM+2Nf4V7T3excNQW+6ZiFiiPLk9uKoad 0wiaDMBZKgAxHsiBKK7HuhonzYPMFY2xENceT6fXjD4NFPVGMzxbkdRozH/cf+0AysrR LncuzhkWON83FHve1dyg0T+En/fyNlkw7puTN/eJpy/oOLjgKjun6gNVzPMROilhjFto c8FLTN/KbTVgEuE6kzNAvrjjEpRm+nmKjWo38nFvaAfdyr+fxQuY2/Ssk4W6+O+Y7sla KZrg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39ni6ZmfJP70tO77FP7cDknkQ4Ai72kMi0DNF/PbhGd5XTGNqOcMg4rIpbwip4juJMZhzRBY4TqQyZrH5g== X-Received: by 10.31.108.147 with SMTP id j19mr1325024vki.149.1488403600216; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 13:26:40 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.38.2 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:26:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.159.38.2 with HTTP; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 13:26:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <2646FC7F-A008-4A5F-8D33-4607D306B8AE@google.com> <3e733fa0-744b-28d8-28d2-dbf3ace3c8b3@si6networks.com> <74EF0172-F021-4941-92EE-76D11C3F9401@employees.org> <49a10ca2-6d6c-4d92-fffb-902e20566d9d@gmail.com> <58B6DBD9.4010402@foobar.org> From: Mark Smith Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:26:37 +1100 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1147a190df9fdf0549b1f7d0 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 01 Mar 2017 21:26:43 -0000 --001a1147a190df9fdf0549b1f7d0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On 2 Mar. 2017 01:47, "Philip Homburg" wrote: >otroan@employees.org wrote: >> An off-link DHCP server advertising a default router address wouldn't >> even have IP reachability to the default router address. It has no >> effective way of updating a host's default router nor deal with >> default router failure. Fate sharing etc. We've been through these >> arguments so many times I don't see any purpose in rehashing all of >> them. > >Please can we move past this particular canard? It is still as much of >a straw man argument as it was when it was first suggested 15-20 years >ago. Indeed. If this were such a big problem, somebody would have tried to resurrect IPv4 Router Advertisement ICMPs (RFC 1256). Most people don't know about it. The only methods they've been taught are static configuration or DHCP. It's better know as ICMP Router Discovery Protocol (irdp), Cisco routers support it, and Linux hosts likely have the client installed - rdisc. Search for IDRP and you'll find references to using it with Solaris and HA Linux setups. Surprisingly, the only time the inability to update default routers is mentioned, is when somebody tries to prevent that feature from getting added to ICMPv6. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --001a1147a190df9fdf0549b1f7d0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 2 Mar. 2017 01:47, "Philip Homburg" <pch-v6ops-6@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:=
>otroan@employees.org wrot= e:
>> An off-link DHCP server advertising a default router address would= n't
>> even have IP reachability to the default router address. It has no=
>> effective way of updating a host's default router nor deal wit= h
>> default router failure. Fate sharing etc. We've been through t= hese
>> arguments so many times I don't see any purpose in rehashing a= ll of
>> them.
>
>Please can we move past this particular canard?=C2=A0 It is still as mu= ch of
>a straw man argument as it was when it was first suggested 15-20 years<= br> >ago.

Indeed. If this were such a big problem, somebody would have tried to=
resurrect IPv4 Router Advertisement ICMPs (RFC 1256).

Most people don&= #39;t know about it. The only methods they've been taught are static co= nfiguration or DHCP.

It&= #39;s better know as ICMP Router Discovery Protocol (irdp), Cisco routers s= upport it, and Linux hosts likely have the client =C2=A0installed - rdisc.<= /div>

Search for IDRP and you&= #39;ll find references to using it with Solaris and HA Linux setups.
<= div dir=3D"auto">

Surprisingly, the only time the inability to update default routers is
mentioned, is when somebody tries to prevent that feature from getting adde= d
to ICMPv6.


_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

--001a1147a190df9fdf0549b1f7d0-- From nobody Wed Mar 1 16:55:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C4FD91295E2 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 16:55:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p6qTSMlH63ly for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 16:55:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x231.google.com (mail-pf0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82B45129455 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 16:55:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x231.google.com with SMTP id x66so16165695pfb.3 for ; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 16:55:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fhYP9ptMQDeqlMuzk5c0E8CiPZqEt3S83qzG/VanMuQ=; b=cpAoHyDSAHZpW3Xi2jVhTumDBESVvmCgySyAE0PBft1mezesKZp1mwDzWZGOrtG3lx A1SNtlfcD9l2krE6QIKyC48ZalxNRYY5c5prtfTjQIBOLxf4hK671mbDttME/+TaQj3e +27uSmQxnE6b0D9HfptzqPPGu+eCJn89wOIMDm2dh1hwgtAkEMDF4+egwShZWGlHEifZ RzSBousDyOmuWHFfAfdxKYEoinoPVa2ekIZ+F2cHvHh9YTvIkXenfNCi8/0+KOA8waMz F+LkPRCBRAFWax66AVCGjGpcXqtoFxNO869svdYoqgDzo3CT3ojyrCpIVnKDM7pxfyQl 7n4g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=fhYP9ptMQDeqlMuzk5c0E8CiPZqEt3S83qzG/VanMuQ=; b=qw4GK0j8hcB+snPYELxzbnKESst0onDQ67kESh/h02g61br5pkp7u6KuBikCDQUDMi 1SV/f5llK0n5G0X+710RL1GhoZ7+8zCT0F64xDt/Qm73bOCWiF4mdCz65Aj3p965mAcm 0RVSUa6uJkYh6pe+uquiSUxY+YIug1OXBOWJ4Ruur+cRpMF1DAtQsK8i0T4k2hxyeMul 0gon3EnsI8V8pnCGyBZWuHEfRewWmJXrOE/gFw1q9vxZX6wiAi/LlcoAojlYD7wpOWtB ExvtXCtuJm0Gz3py8c+3lhq3CGHqulZN3tF25+4M7okO8nHtUvNk4jgh+k/MCVmSSHa9 KwSQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39kU4/WfW9BdJ4Dn181mlCdr0ac00tIglAcEwtzmc7IXPCgLpM3jk2MoGKNWSO0abA== X-Received: by 10.84.215.23 with SMTP id k23mr1277269pli.58.1488416144897; Wed, 01 Mar 2017 16:55:44 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:6663:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:6663:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x10sm12773227pfi.117.2017.03.01.16.55.43 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 01 Mar 2017 16:55:44 -0800 (PST) To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 13:55:47 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 00:55:46 -0000 On 02/03/2017 10:08, Simon Hobson wrote: > otroan@employees.org wrote: > >> If you were to have networks offering the same information both via RA and DHCP, then you're bound to end up in situations where the information passed is out of sync, ... > > Isn't that just another case of "admins can screw up a network" ? I can put an incorrect address in a DHCP config, and always have been able to, and the client is broken ! > That's just part of being a network admin - not putting stupid values in your configs, or at least if you do then have a means of spotting it before the users complain ;-) True, but in general, having to put the same info in two places is a bad and error-prone thing. Normally I strongly stand by RFC 1958: "3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one." But in this case we are painted into a corner and pragmatism should prevail, IMNSHO. Brian From nobody Wed Mar 1 21:09:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 063B8129488 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:09:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E2MOGA3AjnPT for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:09:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8ED5D129465 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:09:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.3.83] (unknown [181.165.116.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 674658015C; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:09:46 +0100 (CET) To: otroan@employees.org, Gert Doering References: <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 01:52:42 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 05:09:52 -0000 On 03/01/2017 05:36 PM, otroan@employees.org wrote: >>> Woah, which is it? Is it the host vendor? Is it the router >>> vendor? >> >> Both, of course. >> >>> How did you get from two major vendors ignoring half the stuff >>> the users would expect, and it being solely the host vendor's >>> fault? >> >> That was mostly turning around Lorenzo's argument that there is no >> problem in Android if the network can just be made to provide >> RDNSS. Which, while factually true, does not help anyone. > > If you were to have networks offering the same information both via > RA and DHCP, then you're bound to end up in situations where the > information passed is out of sync, and you have hosts getting > confused. That's why we aim at: 1) Devices operated by the network admin to support both options, such that the admin can decide which of the two options works best for her/hoim. 2) Client-side devices to support both options, so that whatever the admin chose, does work. > Hosts supporting both on networks supporting both are > probably already confused. Nowadays you have the worst case scenario: both client and router/server implementations supporting only a subset of the aforementioned mechanisms. So you're likely to get both: 1) out-of-sync info 2) Confused hosts 3) Hosts that just "cannot connect to the network" (they don't get a DNS server) 4) Quite a lot of WTH ("What The..?!") moments, particularly when we eventually phase out IPv4, and admins and users find the price that they have to pay for our lousy job. > Here are two ways we can get out of the bind: > > 1) Complimentary: Remove redundant options between RA and DHCP. I.e. > remove DNS options from DHCP. Possible, also not doable because of SLAAC "advocates" (for a friendly term9. > 2) Competing: Add everything missing in > one to the other. And a network MUST only support one of the > protocols. Our document is a lightweight version of this. We just require support for DNS-related options and for the corresponding mechanisms in both network-side and client-side devices, and expect the network admin to pick one, and have the selected option (whatever it is) to "just work". > A good part of this is caused by our inability to solve the service > discovery problem. Agreed. Now, at the very least, we could provide a pragmatic solution for the DNS info. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Wed Mar 1 21:50:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09A6D1296C8 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:50:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.303 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.303 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=wpi.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1l1ZA_RvmXH0 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:50:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from MAIL1.WPI.EDU (mail1.wpi.edu [130.215.36.91]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DBF712949D for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:50:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from MAIL1.WPI.EDU (MAIL1.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.91]) by MAIL1.WPI.EDU (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTP id v225oNvX032699 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 00:50:23 -0500 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 MAIL1.WPI.EDU v225oNvX032699 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=wpi.edu; s=_dkim; t=1488433823; bh=1cA4Zx3YPOzDvXYcjrDlaXlv/cVrhYg4WtAWJqmbE6k=; h=Date:From:To:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=k+53ePYjN2qrAJHKjYa9W9ICOHM7tgOhQMs5i6jOAXNM59Bn3TrVjRs0AgyVaUTOs SfZdQ0QH2OpDAazwognxoTCJ50UBn1aEJJHrs3K3wdQchYbMGZY/Sb1EUWsY50Nu5p B9Sp+UVg7bRTsdWNjRYYT+r7Yq49D5P5OZSNTSVA= Received: from milter1.wpi.edu (milter1.wpi.edu [130.215.36.49]) by MAIL1.WPI.EDU (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTP id v225oNS6032696 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 00:50:23 -0500 Received: from angus.ind.wpi.edu (angus.ind.wpi.edu [130.215.130.21]) by milter1.wpi.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v225oMCH002706 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 00:50:22 -0500 (envelope-from cra@WPI.EDU) Received: by angus.ind.wpi.edu (Postfix, from userid 10002) id F35AAE0EF9; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 00:50:21 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 00:50:21 -0500 From: Chuck Anderson To: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> References: <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=X, Probability=10%, Report=' TO_IN_SUBJECT 0.5, HTML_00_01 0.05, HTML_00_10 0.05, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_3000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_1300_1399 0, BODY_SIZE_2000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_5000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_7000_LESS 0, DATE_TZ_NA 0, FROM_EDU_TLD 0, IN_REP_TO 0, LEGITIMATE_SIGNS 0, MSG_THREAD 0, NO_URI_HTTPS 0, REFERENCES 0, __ANY_URI 0, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ 0, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT 0, __CD 0, __CT 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __FORWARDED_MSG 0, __FRAUD_SUBJ_A 0, __HAS_FROM 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __IN_REP_TO 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_TEXT_P 0, __MIME_TEXT_P1 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __NO_HTML_TAG_RAW 0, __PHISH_SPEAR_STRUCTURE_1 0, __REFERENCES 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE 0, __TO_IN_SUBJECT 0, __TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __TO_NO_NAME 0, __URI_NO_WWW 0, __URI_NS , __USER_AGENT 0' Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 05:50:26 -0000 On Thu, Mar 02, 2017 at 01:55:47PM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 02/03/2017 10:08, Simon Hobson wrote: > > otroan@employees.org wrote: > > > >> If you were to have networks offering the same information both via RA and DHCP, then you're bound to end up in situations where the information passed is out of sync, ... > > > > Isn't that just another case of "admins can screw up a network" ? I can put an incorrect address in a DHCP config, and always have been able to, and the client is broken ! > > That's just part of being a network admin - not putting stupid values in your configs, or at least if you do then have a means of spotting it before the users complain ;-) > > True, but in general, having to put the same info in two places is a bad > and error-prone thing. Normally I strongly stand by RFC 1958: > "3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one." > But in this case we are painted into a corner and pragmatism should > prevail, IMNSHO. In that case since my IPAM/DNS/DHCP system is one integrated system, I should keep the DNS info in the central IPAM server and deliver it via DHCPv6 rather than configure it in dozens or hundreds of routers all over the place, all of which would need to be updated when a DNS server fails. IPAM vendors don't talk to routers to update their RA config. From nobody Wed Mar 1 21:59:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 172F01293FE for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:59:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wVd0Bmp59X-3 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4CC8D127077 for ; Wed, 1 Mar 2017 21:59:29 -0800 (PST) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id C7FCCA5; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:59:26 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1488434366; bh=dg4xGxHbz46UKeTirKxyFX8dB2PRxjbmDkX4DMjoYSo=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=WzLjVm8CtdOddLXSTMFMIy0xHEKKuPMiGv9f/O4rcjw0dSmW2vqBWY52pW9cSjfmu Jz+ew7y3OMjW5c70jI3f2oYxc6SxS09Kf+JOl2yH40wHa15+dx7n6kk3UNn498W3ne MCKdpiyqFdf8e4rOsRIX32qryIC+rWrzemLf5NRQ= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id B09B2A4; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:59:26 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:59:26 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Mark Smith In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 05:59:31 -0000 On Thu, 2 Mar 2017, Mark Smith wrote: > Upgrading hosts is much easier than upgrading networks. I am not sure you wrote this, your quoting looks very weird in my email reader... but anyhow, whoever wrote this, I don't agree. Both are hard to upgrade. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Thu Mar 2 00:32:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11D20129459 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 00:32:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fm9mNpJJzdIE for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 00:32:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4529C1294A7 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 00:32:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.3.83] (unknown [181.165.116.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1A206801BD; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 09:32:43 +0100 (CET) To: "STARK, BARBARA H" , IPv6 Operations References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> <163ebf4b-f3bc-b52c-91c7-6c90ce14d93a@si6networks.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DAD125D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> From: Fernando Gont X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 03:38:04 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DAD125D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 08:32:51 -0000 Hello, Barbara, On 03/01/2017 03:54 PM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: [....] > > If an enterprise wants to insist on only DHCPv6 (for IPv6 address > and/or DNS server addresses), then they will only be allowing > connection by hosts that support DHCPv6. If an enterprise wants to > insist on only RDNSS and SLAAC, then they will only be allowing > connections by hosts that support these. If an enterprise has a > router that doesn't do RDNSS, but they want RDNSS, then they need to > demand it. Apparently, Microsoft did, and got it. Folks have already chimmed in on this one: Microsoft probably doesn't qualify as a regular enterprise. > The enterprise > controls the purchase of the enterprise router. Therefore, they have > the ability to influence it. The enterprise who controls what > attaches to that router can dictate requirements for attaching hosts. Not really. IN many BYOD scenarios, this is not actually truth. > The enterprise who does not control what attaches, has no ability to > control what attaches. The enterprise who wants to let anything > attach MUST support RDNSS and stateless-or-stateful DHCPv6. Just like > CE routers. That is what it is. And it's a sad state of affairs. > What if a host vendor (or host OS vendor) wants to provide hosts to > DHCPv6-only enterprises? They implement DHCPv6. What if they don't > care about such enterprises? Then they don't care. Participants at > IETF should not attempt to use IETF in an attempt to force uncaring > vendors to implement. The marketplace is the bully, not IETF. Either > the vendors see demand for the functionality, or they don't. > > Let the free market and human nature do their job. The necessary > standards exists. Barbara We, as an SDO, are offering two half-baked solutions for automatic configuration...and that's bad. What's worse, many of the ops folks that are struggling to deploy v6 have no much of a clue about this sad situation, and thy will eventually find out the hard way: when they phase v4 out, and find that, for many nodes, DNS information is now gone. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Mar 2 00:37:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6900B1294C5 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 00:37:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=microsoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E7VHp1Zt6b54 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 00:37:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from NAM02-BL2-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bl2nam02on0100.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.38.100]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AEEC1294C7 for ; 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Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:37:03 +0000 From: Marcus Keane To: Mark Smith Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) Thread-Index: AQHSkZqhbS2hnHgjrE25VL6z1j6C8qF+NNuAgAACkoCAAABNgIAAA8sAgAAe04CAAAN5gIAAEO6AgABmloCAAGavAIAAI5YAgAAFO4CAAASOgIAAAz4AgAAETgCAAAVbAIAAOkSAgAABMACAABdIgIAAAboAgAC0MEeAALo2IA== Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:37:03 +0000 Message-ID: <3543d8cf15ff4cf6a34782fed4325588@SG2PR3004MB0090.064d.mgd.msft.net> References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7dcf6972-d09f-d559-2f84-592adb01b5ff@si6networks.com> <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [129.75.36.69] X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: d1ead469-9b27-456a-1d14-08d461474ed5 Content-Type: text/plain; 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Ip=[23.103.252.4]; Helo=[064-smtp-out.microsoft.com] X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: HybridOnPrem X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN1PR03MB007 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 08:37:16 -0000 DQo+IlNvLCBpcyBhbGwgdGhpcyB0cm91YmxlIHdvcnRoIGl0Pw0KPkhvcGVmdWxseS4iDQo+V2hh dCBhIHNhZCwgc2FkIHF1ZXN0aW9uIGFuZCBhIHNhZCwgc2FkIGFuc3dlciwgMTkgeWVhcnMgYWZ0 ZXIgdGhlIHB1YmxpY2F0aW9uIG9mIFJGQzI0NjAuDQoNClRoYW5rIHlvdSwgTWFyaywgZm9yIGJy aW5naW5nIHRoaXMgdG8gbXkgYXR0ZW50aW9uLiBJdCdzIGFjdHVhbGx5IGFuIGVkaXRpbmcgZXJy b3IsIGFuZCBJIHdpbGwgZ2V0IGl0IGNvcnJlY3RlZC4gVGhlIHNlbnRlbmNlIHNob3VsZCByZWFk ICJIb3BlZnVsbHksIG1pZ3JhdGluZyB0byBJUHY2IChkdWFsLXN0YWNrKSBpcyB1bmNvbnRyb3Zl cnNpYWwgYXQgdGhpcyBzdGFnZSIuIFRoaXMsIEknbSBzdXJlIHlvdSdsbCBhZ3JlZSwgaXMgcXVp dGUgZGlmZmVyZW50LiANClRoZSBxdWVzdGlvbiB3YXMgcmhldG9yaWNhbCwgYW5kIHRoZSBlbnN1 aW5nIHBhcmFncmFwaCBzZXRzIG91dCBzb21lIHJlYXNvbnMgd2h5IHdlIHRoaW5rIGl0IGlzICJ3 b3J0aCBpdCIuIFlvdSBzaG91bGQgbm90IGhhdmUgdGhlIHNsaWdodGVzdCBpbXByZXNzaW9uIHRo YXQgd2UgYXJlIGFtYml2YWxlbnQgYWJvdXQgb3VyIElQdjYgZWZmb3J0cy4NCkhvcGUgdGhpcyBo ZWxwcyBjbGVhciB0aGluZ3MgdXAuDQpNYXJjdXMNCg0KDQo= From nobody Thu Mar 2 01:42:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 206431294BB for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 01:42:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kn4tKC83fM63 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 01:42:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [81.174.135.208]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B29312943E for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 01:42:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from [192.168.1.55] (lan.furness.net [84.9.59.220]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 69A791BC3D for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 09:39:08 +0000 (UTC) From: Simon Hobson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 09:39:07 +0000 To: IPv6 Operations Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 09:42:55 -0000 This came up on another list I'm on ... Take what I believe to be a fairly typical scenario : A smallish business that's large enough/dependent on connectivity enough = to have two internet connections - possibly through different ISPs. But = not large enough to justify getting it's own PI address allocation with = all the management (and global routing table bloat) that goes with it. In the IPv4 world it's easy to use RFC1918 private addressing, NAT in = the router, and the router makes all the policy decisions as to which = (outbound connection) traffic goes out through which connection*. That's = fairly easy to manage, and with my work hat on, my employer has several = clients with just this setup. Now introduce IPv6, we have two (or possibly more) separate prefix = delegations, each device gets two (or more) addresses. How do people go = about setting routing policy in this situation ? It's no longer the domain of the router, since the source address used = by the node determines which connection the traffic needs to be sent = via. That would seem to suggest that every node on the network now needs = to be given instruction on routing policy. It also means that when the = routing requirements change (eg a connection drops), this needs to be = communicated to all the nodes. This seems to be a significant backward step in terms of network = management. * Depending on situation, this may be as simple as "all traffic via X, = but if X is down then via Y. Or it may be traffic of type A (eg viop = traffic) via Y with all other traffic via X - but if X or Y is down then = reroute the traffic that would go through it to the other connection. Or = there may be reasons (such as relative cost, speed, and latency/jitter) = to send interactive traffic (eg browsing) via one and "bulk" traffic = (such as file transfers and mail) via the other. From nobody Thu Mar 2 02:12:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CEF38129687 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 02:12:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TwJ6qS64URlR for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 02:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-2.cisco.com [173.37.86.73]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 44F11129473 for ; 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02 Mar 2017 10:12:21 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (xch-rtp-011.cisco.com [64.101.220.151]) by alln-core-6.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v22ACLma006307 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 2 Mar 2017 10:12:21 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-011.cisco.com (64.101.220.151) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 05:12:20 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 05:12:20 -0500 From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" To: Simon Hobson , IPv6 Operations Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection Thread-Index: AQHSkzlpfyWzY/7RPUakmBBnME36+qGBuRQA Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 10:12:20 +0000 Message-ID: <013B7A75-E5F6-4F47-9D92-33114F1781F8@cisco.com> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1e.0.170107 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.56.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 10:12:24 -0000 U2ltb24sDQoNCkhvdyB0aW1lbHkgOi0pDQoNClRvZ2V0aGVyIHdpdGggb3RoZXIgZm9sa3MsIHdl IGFyZSBzdWJtaXR0aW5nIGFuIEktRCBpbiB0aGUgIGNvbWluZyBob3VycyBhYm91dCBQcm92aXNp b25pbmcgRG9tYWlucyAoUHZEKSB3aGljaCBhZGRyZXNzZXMgeW91ciB1c2UgY2FzZSBvZiBtdWx0 aS1ob21pbmcgaW4gYSAnY29tcGxleCBjYXNlJy4NCg0KQUZBSUssIHRoZXJlIGlzIGFub3RoZXIg SS1EIChvciBldmVuIFJGQykgdGhhdCByZWNvbW1lbmRzIGhvc3RzIHRvIHNlbGVjdCB0aGUgZGVm YXVsdCByb3V0ZSBuZXh0LWhvcCBiYXNlZCBvbiB0aGUgc291cmNlIHByZWZpeCB1c2VkLg0KDQot w6lyaWMNCg0KDQpPbiAwMi8wMy8xNyAxMDozOSwgInY2b3BzIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBTaW1vbiBI b2Jzb24iIDx2Nm9wcy1ib3VuY2VzQGlldGYub3JnIG9uIGJlaGFsZiBvZiBsaW51eEB0aGVob2Jz b25zLmNvLnVrPiB3cm90ZToNCg0KICAgIFRoaXMgY2FtZSB1cCBvbiBhbm90aGVyIGxpc3QgSSdt IG9uIC4uLg0KICAgIA0KICAgIFRha2Ugd2hhdCBJIGJlbGlldmUgdG8gYmUgYSBmYWlybHkgdHlw aWNhbCBzY2VuYXJpbyA6DQogICAgQSBzbWFsbGlzaCBidXNpbmVzcyB0aGF0J3MgbGFyZ2UgZW5v dWdoL2RlcGVuZGVudCBvbiBjb25uZWN0aXZpdHkgZW5vdWdoIHRvIGhhdmUgdHdvIGludGVybmV0 IGNvbm5lY3Rpb25zIC0gcG9zc2libHkgdGhyb3VnaCBkaWZmZXJlbnQgSVNQcy4gQnV0IG5vdCBs YXJnZSBlbm91Z2ggdG8ganVzdGlmeSBnZXR0aW5nIGl0J3Mgb3duIFBJIGFkZHJlc3MgYWxsb2Nh dGlvbiB3aXRoIGFsbCB0aGUgbWFuYWdlbWVudCAoYW5kIGdsb2JhbCByb3V0aW5nIHRhYmxlIGJs b2F0KSB0aGF0IGdvZXMgd2l0aCBpdC4NCiAgICANCiAgICBJbiB0aGUgSVB2NCB3b3JsZCBpdCdz IGVhc3kgdG8gdXNlIFJGQzE5MTggcHJpdmF0ZSBhZGRyZXNzaW5nLCBOQVQgaW4gdGhlIHJvdXRl ciwgYW5kIHRoZSByb3V0ZXIgbWFrZXMgYWxsIHRoZSBwb2xpY3kgZGVjaXNpb25zIGFzIHRvIHdo aWNoIChvdXRib3VuZCBjb25uZWN0aW9uKSB0cmFmZmljIGdvZXMgb3V0IHRocm91Z2ggd2hpY2gg Y29ubmVjdGlvbiouIFRoYXQncyBmYWlybHkgZWFzeSB0byBtYW5hZ2UsIGFuZCB3aXRoIG15IHdv cmsgaGF0IG9uLCBteSBlbXBsb3llciBoYXMgc2V2ZXJhbCBjbGllbnRzIHdpdGgganVzdCB0aGlz IHNldHVwLg0KICAgIA0KICAgIE5vdyBpbnRyb2R1Y2UgSVB2Niwgd2UgaGF2ZSB0d28gKG9yIHBv c3NpYmx5IG1vcmUpIHNlcGFyYXRlIHByZWZpeCBkZWxlZ2F0aW9ucywgZWFjaCBkZXZpY2UgZ2V0 cyB0d28gKG9yIG1vcmUpIGFkZHJlc3Nlcy4gSG93IGRvIHBlb3BsZSBnbyBhYm91dCBzZXR0aW5n IHJvdXRpbmcgcG9saWN5IGluIHRoaXMgc2l0dWF0aW9uID8NCiAgICBJdCdzIG5vIGxvbmdlciB0 aGUgZG9tYWluIG9mIHRoZSByb3V0ZXIsIHNpbmNlIHRoZSBzb3VyY2UgYWRkcmVzcyB1c2VkIGJ5 IHRoZSBub2RlIGRldGVybWluZXMgd2hpY2ggY29ubmVjdGlvbiB0aGUgdHJhZmZpYyBuZWVkcyB0 byBiZSBzZW50IHZpYS4gVGhhdCB3b3VsZCBzZWVtIHRvIHN1Z2dlc3QgdGhhdCBldmVyeSBub2Rl IG9uIHRoZSBuZXR3b3JrIG5vdyBuZWVkcyB0byBiZSBnaXZlbiBpbnN0cnVjdGlvbiBvbiByb3V0 aW5nIHBvbGljeS4gSXQgYWxzbyBtZWFucyB0aGF0IHdoZW4gdGhlIHJvdXRpbmcgcmVxdWlyZW1l bnRzIGNoYW5nZSAoZWcgYSBjb25uZWN0aW9uIGRyb3BzKSwgdGhpcyBuZWVkcyB0byBiZSBjb21t dW5pY2F0ZWQgdG8gYWxsIHRoZSBub2Rlcy4NCiAgICBUaGlzIHNlZW1zIHRvIGJlIGEgc2lnbmlm aWNhbnQgYmFja3dhcmQgc3RlcCBpbiB0ZXJtcyBvZiBuZXR3b3JrIG1hbmFnZW1lbnQuDQogICAg DQogICAgDQogICAgKiBEZXBlbmRpbmcgb24gc2l0dWF0aW9uLCB0aGlzIG1heSBiZSBhcyBzaW1w bGUgYXMgImFsbCB0cmFmZmljIHZpYSBYLCBidXQgaWYgWCBpcyBkb3duIHRoZW4gdmlhIFkuIE9y IGl0IG1heSBiZSB0cmFmZmljIG9mIHR5cGUgQSAoZWcgdmlvcCB0cmFmZmljKSB2aWEgWSB3aXRo IGFsbCBvdGhlciB0cmFmZmljIHZpYSBYIC0gYnV0IGlmIFggb3IgWSBpcyBkb3duIHRoZW4gcmVy b3V0ZSB0aGUgdHJhZmZpYyB0aGF0IHdvdWxkIGdvIHRocm91Z2ggaXQgdG8gdGhlIG90aGVyIGNv bm5lY3Rpb24uIE9yIHRoZXJlIG1heSBiZSByZWFzb25zIChzdWNoIGFzIHJlbGF0aXZlIGNvc3Qs IHNwZWVkLCBhbmQgbGF0ZW5jeS9qaXR0ZXIpIHRvIHNlbmQgaW50ZXJhY3RpdmUgdHJhZmZpYyAo ZWcgYnJvd3NpbmcpIHZpYSBvbmUgYW5kICJidWxrIiB0cmFmZmljIChzdWNoIGFzIGZpbGUgdHJh bnNmZXJzIGFuZCBtYWlsKSB2aWEgdGhlIG90aGVyLg0KICAgIA0KICAgIF9fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQogICAgdjZvcHMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0 DQogICAgdjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCiAgICBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xp c3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQogICAgDQoNCg== From nobody Thu Mar 2 05:45:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D655312953C for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 05:45:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2dOC7IUqfv_E for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 05:45:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [81.174.135.208]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F5AA12944C for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 05:45:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from [192.168.1.55] (lan.furness.net [84.9.59.220]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 061141BC3A for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 13:45:27 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: <013B7A75-E5F6-4F47-9D92-33114F1781F8@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 13:45:26 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <013B7A75-E5F6-4F47-9D92-33114F1781F8@cisco.com> To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 13:45:36 -0000 Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > How timely :-) >=20 > Together with other folks, we are submitting an I-D in the coming = hours about Provisioning Domains (PvD) which addresses your use case of = multi-homing in a 'complex case'. I look forward to looking at it. > AFAIK, there is another I-D (or even RFC) that recommends hosts to = select the default route next-hop based on the source prefix used. That doesn't really address the issue. It's logical that for whichever = address the node picks to use as a source address for an outbound = connection, it should use an appropriate outbound route - I would guess, = logically a router that advertised the matching prefix as one it routes = for. But you have to take a step back and look at how that source address is = picked - because in effect, source address selection for an outbound = connection is intrinsically linked to route selection. Ie, if the = node/service picks address A then the packet must be routed via = connection X, if it picks source address B then the packet must be = routed via connection Y. So it's no good if (just picking an example) I've got a connection that = is good for bulk transfers (cheap, maybe slower and/or higher = latency/jitter) and want to route my outbound mail via that connection, = thus leaving the higher cost but better connection for interactive use = (eg browsing) - if the mail service then uses a source address meaning = that the packets have to be routed via the latter connection. I could force the mail service to bind to just one address - but that = then means more local config - and it breaks if the latter connection = goes down and I need it to failover to the other one for the duration of = the outage. From nobody Thu Mar 2 06:05:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104551294E9 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:05:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jiim_J5pj1Fv for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:05:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97C4B12958D for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:05:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 02 Mar 2017 14:05:13 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 304BFD788F; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:05:13 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=lFnuaGwrbCwveKfCrpIYGbtW7vo=; b= Ji8gy+F+da3Aj7w5rnkS3iPlXn9UAy67N5ju3aF02WsyCrxA0L4Jj6TVh5Amp7BH vKVULz+5udSUfnptayKcJPRADF3Hs6slqG3gqxYq+PQaaKlCombeVZBJ3iywmwDZ Kxot5gT6kclzSDAd2pXx+raHwoF7H8j6PGFuzZ7ZQC0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=D3r9sKy9wa2tuewl0B688pf oQ7Ldxr580SKsLONpD6mnoontp/EdPcCkbmrKHFqqZBoUkLZ8W2EKUxXTahn89H+ Qf3ys2r0zIzAANAgusoMYFemPhItkwxP9RYHQ1E2cg0fQ0BXI5sV0L+CeP36qUGC hg8ddANxVCjS7LV0pHY0= Received: from h.hanazo.no (unknown [173.38.220.43]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C8363D788A; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:05:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E121B92E962F; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 15:05:10 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0C9EB3D0-BA72-44BE-B2A9-EBAC06E4D9E2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 15:05:09 +0100 In-Reply-To: To: Simon Hobson References: <013B7A75-E5F6-4F47-9D92-33114F1781F8@cisco.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 14:05:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0C9EB3D0-BA72-44BE-B2A9-EBAC06E4D9E2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Simon, >> How timely :-) >>=20 >> Together with other folks, we are submitting an I-D in the coming = hours about Provisioning Domains (PvD) which addresses your use case of = multi-homing in a 'complex case'. >=20 > I look forward to looking at it. >=20 >> AFAIK, there is another I-D (or even RFC) that recommends hosts to = select the default route next-hop based on the source prefix used. >=20 > That doesn't really address the issue. It's logical that for whichever = address the node picks to use as a source address for an outbound = connection, it should use an appropriate outbound route - I would guess, = logically a router that advertised the matching prefix as one it routes = for. >=20 > But you have to take a step back and look at how that source address = is picked - because in effect, source address selection for an outbound = connection is intrinsically linked to route selection. Ie, if the = node/service picks address A then the packet must be routed via = connection X, if it picks source address B then the packet must be = routed via connection Y. >=20 > So it's no good if (just picking an example) I've got a connection = that is good for bulk transfers (cheap, maybe slower and/or higher = latency/jitter) and want to route my outbound mail via that connection, = thus leaving the higher cost but better connection for interactive use = (eg browsing) - if the mail service then uses a source address meaning = that the packets have to be routed via the latter connection. > I could force the mail service to bind to just one address - but that = then means more local config - and it breaks if the latter connection = goes down and I need it to failover to the other one for the duration of = the outage. You are right. The effect of MHMP is that the host picks the exit = circuit by the act of picking the source address. (See also the work on Source address dependent routing). Fred Baker has = also a few drafts on this topic. In the context of MHMP there is essentially two ways this _could_ work: 1) The network passes "policy" down to the hosts. And trust the hosts to = do the right thing (possibly combined with some policing). That may be = something PVDs can solve. Or not. 2) You leave it up to the hosts completely aka throw spaghetti on the = wall. E.g. with MP-TCP or SCTP, where all exit circuits are used and the = transport (or more appropriately named session layer) deals with exit = circuit failure, load balances across connections and so on. This is a tussle between network control versus host control. Neither of = which are ready. I used to run IPv6 MHMP at home. Gave up. ILNP might be your friend. Or just cave and do NPT66. Or use LISP to = multi-home via the support of a 3rd party. Now that answer made you happy I'm sure... ;-) Cheers, Ole --Apple-Mail=_0C9EB3D0-BA72-44BE-B2A9-EBAC06E4D9E2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYuCaWAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92XTcQAIhiR3V1DGnhkMyHg1g3xtVq 0a3p1KxL+1qVyUXwfaMENic3BkwFk8lxEuwt3Lyvs3AVZk1qJcX5p1SmO1tiYiS2 8Vf5dLbVIM6R++o/XyZhd+J3MYNUyAsa2fDgqOk5jUlcd+TADQZLfWj+H1ydIGZT BQIcSKbCFnQHmEyM5zOU/goSTZn7nX8TkF2rGcJgGqRy24xtaZ3l5gmU+zXSHkLJ OTT1eWG555r4sMnttoIcy8mxztQordpZzzh+Tn8S0MPzWLFq3lK0Q5+zWdEE8KoW iMld7/OhaIrwtnaGQO/+H/1POq/e53jhTXMw3Iw6po6kP7iUBi7e4UYnz/7Z5A71 dJavWXAATosG6QZYtRQ6NoFvUXECl8E3VQThjmuYl+7E/aq4VR86pK24n0boNeQT X8g12+4gbx6WoVMxSNdoKtO1BwsOaDd+hKV5rgrS0A+fMiH5qzeVez7hmFDg8OOX qEmoXoTh5R8viUdQOJmBofOhtTijKod8TyR29PIa0EB677JYUwl3go6Uus6zGXFw EHAPooHNhvx+Upa0S7dWUUlL1S/cKOH8HmJxESPKd9QIihstnjGd9MF14qoQiD1d VINxw9PKxgJUP7m0q0i9Jxlew+crrTPc7uSuPlCBBHwEP/w9lCUNpgZrFI8guMnB Y46+uHzc1csFBlgq0ufP =/qkF -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0C9EB3D0-BA72-44BE-B2A9-EBAC06E4D9E2-- From nobody Thu Mar 2 06:20:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FE3912995A for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:20:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dmp8oqTI6OAG for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:20:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x230.google.com (mail-qk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E281B1295F1 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x230.google.com with SMTP id n127so125750257qkf.0 for ; Thu, 02 Mar 2017 06:20:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=1aCVikc5EqcYY2INbksJHhu1L7l4/xCyLuX4kjRBfGA=; b=NInd2nYmcQIm5urpEYz6d6gaP3U2hciPvBIK156MJVb0auB8yvi1XN1KqrwXXls2N3 BVoZDxm9og8dsnJoByAz8sWhER34naoWlMpsD6HU6+UUaqUELWdOu984lI+jo3B7jLbo WFSr4E7cuKElkUjWzJ/EXhuL0jwbIpIMBFzFc62MIBYkAERxqG+4ZEiMcYDiKdkQN+tS 3mUsQ8q7IeFcNOYnHtRsGpQY8G/GJiEvoRBeM3RP7iacvVx1lkFyR5xYxlCJ5PO+Kxw/ CjoF3ZU+AMx7Uqu2+A3sItvI5GwNx3A4T5UpDTxadVxE4cTGUY6CqK1nAS5PuuBEKCmf 8OsQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=1aCVikc5EqcYY2INbksJHhu1L7l4/xCyLuX4kjRBfGA=; b=C5HMYuFN/8vftcXGxvZX3p/aMDpFb3bBWVvcTnbcxWdjC9d3scBHwiwLg70LlBZbht 5LwRXkYZeaCn9hedkWw7gRl4BLvNaaksyBK/jzSbwjlBCJE8k0avZDlf9b2FSR9G95VA 243RB28c80U6bRLSs1vqmM2BoJ3l38/oNT5jIQ3PGCsM5Dcv/4AJc2KHcAMR4yo8zAeA WXEGqTSbHfPPFMKxoV+B5V0msvuRmVnGE8RM0XbRxrLpTPW1GYquzilk2CUauDsPBSyn 9T8w4JBof6jvuX5ZcwK1Fd6t8TmhYwQQotGM8y+mqfp88lGOb9f2E9OfU0wSOQ5c1Np/ ry5w== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39noQtGL3A65SCLjZHrisXlcslm3JXLweOffTYxcHtxh877rPyMiYPsZ49BAVMUKMw== X-Received: by 10.55.131.4 with SMTP id f4mr16586484qkd.1.1488464406060; Thu, 02 Mar 2017 06:20:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.228] (c-73-167-64-188.hsd1.nh.comcast.net. [73.167.64.188]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a54sm5432999qta.48.2017.03.02.06.20.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Mar 2017 06:20:04 -0800 (PST) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <808326F1-2160-44C6-80B1-4990B8F46196@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D5945A5E-5DC7-4B1E-9C44-7CE5EAA05D16" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 09:20:01 -0500 In-Reply-To: <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> To: Chuck Anderson References: <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 14:20:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D5945A5E-5DC7-4B1E-9C44-7CE5EAA05D16 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mar 2, 2017, at 12:50 AM, Chuck Anderson wrote: > all of which would need to be updated when a DNS > server fails.=20 Does this ever actually happen on your network? On my network, if the = hardware for a DNS server were to fail, it would be immediately = replaced, and would have the same IP address as before. I realize that this is a side issue, but I think it's important to be = clear on whether or not the use cases we are talking about are real or = concocted. This one sounds a bit concocted from my perspective, but = I'm curious to hear what your actual operational practice is.= --Apple-Mail=_D5945A5E-5DC7-4B1E-9C44-7CE5EAA05D16 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Mar 2, 2017, at 12:50 AM, Chuck Anderson <cra@WPI.EDU> = wrote:
all of which would need to be updated when a = DNS
server fails. 

Does this ever actually happen on your = network?   On my network, if the hardware for a DNS server were to = fail, it would be immediately replaced, and would have the same IP = address as before.

I realize that this is a side issue, but I think it's = important to be clear on whether or not the use cases we are talking = about are real or concocted.   This one sounds a bit concocted from = my perspective, but I'm curious to hear what your actual operational = practice is.
= --Apple-Mail=_D5945A5E-5DC7-4B1E-9C44-7CE5EAA05D16-- From nobody Thu Mar 2 06:47:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DADBB1295E4 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:47:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wv8m_85PvQvG for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:47:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com [173.37.86.79]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21B9D1294BE for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 06:47:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=cisco.com; i=@cisco.com; l=10964; q=dns/txt; s=iport; t=1488466061; x=1489675661; h=from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:references: in-reply-to:mime-version; bh=jdBMnFEy1nkjaSYP1XsA85fjlvcpmjY0/SZORGZblqM=; b=V5wBYio1IP1N/+2jjgVjIG7Mnh4UZqVQ3svuOYHFeRx5qCWW/YG7MCiA 6kQueDJmberaIBFKvXGQGG377mL5UE1c9eX9eZ3OdHITGdLS7A3fFFTXR eazqfNRrkYp2wVCeEhEplsYDGQE4epRuBjP+xC2dKz9VdZtaU9Q+AbIpx E=; X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A0AVAQCBL7hY/5tdJa1eDgsBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQcBAQEBAYJuYmGBCQeNYJFnkAmDHYIPgg2GIgKCSD8YAQIBAQEBAQEBYii?= =?us-ascii?q?EcAEBAQQtSgIQAgEIDgMEAQEkBAcyFAkIAgQBDQUIiXK0DYsVAQEBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBAQEBHYs7hD5MhS8FiRCID4sKAYlTiFWCBI8kiEGKdQEfOIEBVBW?= =?us-ascii?q?FQ4ENO3WIcYENAQEB?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.35,231,1484006400"; d="scan'208,217";a="213309417" Received: from rcdn-core-4.cisco.com ([173.37.93.155]) by rcdn-iport-8.cisco.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 02 Mar 2017 14:47:40 +0000 Received: from XCH-RCD-004.cisco.com (xch-rcd-004.cisco.com [173.37.102.14]) by rcdn-core-4.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v22EledX001041 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 2 Mar 2017 14:47:40 GMT Received: from xch-aln-003.cisco.com (173.36.7.13) by XCH-RCD-004.cisco.com (173.37.102.14) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:47:39 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-003.cisco.com ([173.36.7.13]) by XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com ([173.36.7.13]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:47:39 -0600 From: "Bernie Volz (volz)" To: Ted Lemon , Chuck Anderson Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) Thread-Index: AQHSkZqej4ZgDibMZkG//a60L4Kga6F+mXCAgAACkoCAAABNgIAAA8sAgAAe04CAAAN5gIAAEO+AgABmlYCAAGavAIABG8rngAC2voCAAI5ngP//oXjw Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 14:47:39 +0000 Message-ID: <13788799a5b642709fb6e5b30afb35b3@XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com> References: <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> <808326F1-2160-44C6-80B1-4990B8F46196@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <808326F1-2160-44C6-80B1-4990B8F46196@fugue.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.98.1.197] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_13788799a5b642709fb6e5b30afb35b3XCHALN003ciscocom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 14:47:43 -0000 --_000_13788799a5b642709fb6e5b30afb35b3XCHALN003ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ted ... spot on. I find the argument that DNS server addresses change on a = frequent basis a silly argument. Sure it may happen but I would guess that = it is pretty rare. And for best service: - Specify multiple addresses (for multiple servers for high availa= bility) - When replacing a server, assure it continues to use the same add= resses as before (whether IPv4 or IPv6) Having to update any configuration information on other devices (whether th= e routers or DHCP servers and getting that propagated through the network) = is probably not desirable and much work than just retaining the previous ad= dresses of the (failed) DNS server. - Bernie From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Ted Lemon Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 9:20 AM To: Chuck Anderson Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notificati= on for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) On Mar 2, 2017, at 12:50 AM, Chuck Anderson > wrote: all of which would need to be updated when a DNS server fails. Does this ever actually happen on your network? On my network, if the har= dware for a DNS server were to fail, it would be immediately replaced, and = would have the same IP address as before. I realize that this is a side issue, but I think it's important to be clear= on whether or not the use cases we are talking about are real or concocted= . This one sounds a bit concocted from my perspective, but I'm curious to= hear what your actual operational practice is. --_000_13788799a5b642709fb6e5b30afb35b3XCHALN003ciscocom_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Ted … spot on. I find the argum= ent that DNS server addresses change on a frequent basis a silly argument. = Sure it may happen but I would guess that it is pretty rare. And for best service:

-   =        Specify multiple addresses (f= or multiple servers for high availability)

-   =        When replacing a server, assu= re it continues to use the same addresses as before (whether IPv4 or IPv6)<= o:p>

 

Having to update any configuration in= formation on other devices (whether the routers or DHCP servers and getting= that propagated through the network) is probably not desirable and much work than just retaining the previous addresses of = the (failed) DNS server.

 

-   =        Bernie

 

From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ie= tf.org] On Behalf Of Ted Lemon
Sent: Thursday, March 02, 2017 9:20 AM
To: Chuck Anderson <cra@WPI.EDU>
Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Not= ification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt)=

 

On Mar 2, 2017, at 12:50 AM, Chuck Anderson <cra@WPI.EDU> wrote:

all of which would need to be updated when a DNS server fails. 

 

Does this ever actually happen on your network? &nbs= p; On my network, if the hardware for a DNS server were to fail, it would b= e immediately replaced, and would have the same IP address as before.<= /o:p>

 

I realize that this is a side issue, but I think it'= s important to be clear on whether or not the use cases we are talking abou= t are real or concocted.   This one sounds a bit concocted from my per= spective, but I'm curious to hear what your actual operational practice is.

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I find the argument that DNS server addresses change on a frequent basis a silly argument. Sure it may happen but I would guess that it is pretty rare. And for best service: > > - Specify multiple addresses (for multiple servers for high availability) > > - When replacing a server, assure it continues to use the same addresses as before (whether IPv4 or IPv6) > > Having to update any configuration information on other devices (whether the routers or DHCP servers and getting that propagated through the network) is probably not desirable and much work than just retaining the previous addresses of the (failed) DNS server. That's why I've seen anycast DNS used in large deployments. Dale From nobody Thu Mar 2 07:38:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4ACB1129556 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 07:38:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HCFj3c_PNABi for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 07:38:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua0-x22b.google.com (mail-ua0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F0DCE1294C3 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 07:38:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id q7so48561871uaf.2 for ; Thu, 02 Mar 2017 07:38:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=jbVskD85pH0iSDrBHMyd99CAPA9GNhotiY79ePStrC0=; b=rZ84klP2EA3nYJ4wZ5ny8ALefxyB0TIgmwv6waFohtNmMCOdrK7wXYuv5Thb24Z9JL yg0w1luAbVIBnwVvKdjA4/VOU680RXfXJzATQPoFoEaOxdXjjgWYqlV1umCb0AiCaq+C RHrO+rOdmWa1WI/QPjeZljuGbx7b6Swv/I2bLVptRlJCDo8GNzJkMnDzftpP9Zn6vq1s PMYJ7IWO25XV9SuWNrOKvLXKWKMnv4IvRr7Z4aoBf7sJ0IM3njQJ9XkbR89AxKWXR0Kk z7cJPjqz4sUpG1W8xhkt+s9vFpY1/iFKDFVtUf6F2n/oaChSePhL6M7lwgMCbKZZEKVh ZGPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=jbVskD85pH0iSDrBHMyd99CAPA9GNhotiY79ePStrC0=; b=hmXzqTCx8p8bGxGjWnjbCkrFVUcoiEqgbmuV/UyewANrDpdvmzuJ9aHgtnBEvZaa1v hMGzffGF5z/Ph4+vGXmzpfOzGuGU1nLsxhDOgV0MHJaVtpmIdlMEPtgWrXvy+UB6ZOdw zxAp+ZUKIu0v7t7MhTVk7EXxDFOOT3morNEwYJdvADobHXdLlYrxPSWVVgKWlaDZNQXe y8cbSEFJh8f4H+bIoVUiI1jTJFTuw7qqJR/sxP6umusdJCPaHcDATZ2oDHM3nb8IxS6E o69118KIGIV0VjVEsYsLjVsL2H2sHRtg8LlCXpOzbWEf/GTDbk2c403bSPTtaUCpHflO l18g== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39kWq9pDZJ7BdUhXxQ1EQ9hdPEJfcJga84HodimJyk/6zqabKia+xvwt3Ga4ASyKQzpVEOW9CAA8KGYrm2OD X-Received: by 10.159.40.202 with SMTP id d68mr7341328uad.122.1488469094235; Thu, 02 Mar 2017 07:38:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.171.2 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 07:37:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <13788799a5b642709fb6e5b30afb35b3@XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com> References: <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> <808326F1-2160-44C6-80B1-4990B8F46196@fugue.com> <13788799a5b642709fb6e5b30afb35b3@XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 00:37:53 +0900 Message-ID: To: "Bernie Volz (volz)" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c12382e9f72cf0549c137ec Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 15:38:19 -0000 --94eb2c12382e9f72cf0549c137ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) wrote: > Ted =E2=80=A6 spot on. I find the argument that DNS server addresses chan= ge on a > frequent basis a silly argument. > Please consider dynamic mesh networks and unmanaged host networks. Having to update any configuration information on other devices (whether > the routers or DHCP servers and getting that propagated through the > network) is probably not desirable and much work than just retaining the > previous addresses of the (failed) DNS server. > How are you going to do that in a home network where the user just tripped over the power cord of the router in front of the DNS server? That address is not even routable any more. --94eb2c12382e9f72cf0549c137ec Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= hu, Mar 2, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) <volz@cisco.com> wrote:

Ted =E2=80=A6 spot on. I find the argument t= hat DNS server addresses change on a frequent basis a silly argument.


Please consider dyna= mic mesh networks and unmanaged host networks.

Having to update any configuration information on other devices (whethe= r the routers or DHCP servers and getting that propagated through the netwo= rk) is probably not desirable and much work than just retaining the previous addresses of = the (failed) DNS server.


=
How are you going to do that in a home network where the user just tri= pped over the power cord of the router in front of the DNS server? That add= ress is not even routable any more.
--94eb2c12382e9f72cf0549c137ec-- From nobody Thu Mar 2 08:05:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1769129505 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:05:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.303 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.303 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=wpi.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ryZV6rM68311 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:05:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from MAIL1.WPI.EDU (mail1.wpi.edu [130.215.36.91]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29D40129535 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from MAIL1.WPI.EDU (MAIL1.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.91]) by MAIL1.WPI.EDU (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTP id v22G5SpJ013185; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:05:28 -0500 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 MAIL1.WPI.EDU v22G5SpJ013185 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=wpi.edu; s=_dkim; t=1488470728; bh=T1efSa9qplz6JHk8mNvJ8yUs41J6YK72nMSPMXcFJ98=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=nGdN1oqHCwQZwcVRO/x9ZDZGoNRDGs8Z1FpNWRKAyXwFyACEJt/PdhbPRbo1E9Af3 hw9fGkj65RqCn+QqtP2Mp1tSTg4NNm63md8oNfurCOmt+nJDwsNlrJVpLYgqvrBOSV NIPsNtsGPe7BiYecUou7vYznvcfq7C7zNIKgdQA0= Received: from milter1.wpi.edu (milter1.wpi.edu [130.215.36.49]) by MAIL1.WPI.EDU (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTP id v22G5SLD013181; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:05:28 -0500 Received: from angus.ind.wpi.edu (angus.ind.wpi.edu [130.215.130.21]) by milter1.wpi.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v22G5Q9v024620; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:05:27 -0500 (envelope-from cra@WPI.EDU) Received: by angus.ind.wpi.edu (Postfix, from userid 10002) id 6BEABE1103; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:05:26 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:05:26 -0500 From: Chuck Anderson To: Lorenzo Colitti Message-ID: <20170302160526.GO31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> References: <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> <808326F1-2160-44C6-80B1-4990B8F46196@fugue.com> <13788799a5b642709fb6e5b30afb35b3@XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIIII, Probability=8%, Report=' MULTIPLE_RCPTS 0.1, HTML_00_01 0.05, HTML_00_10 0.05, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_3000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_1000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_2000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_5000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_7000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_900_999 0, DATE_TZ_NA 0, FROM_EDU_TLD 0, IN_REP_TO 0, LEGITIMATE_SIGNS 0, MSG_THREAD 0, MULTIPLE_REAL_RCPTS 0, NO_URI_HTTPS 0, REFERENCES 0, __ANY_URI 0, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ 0, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT 0, __CC_NAME 0, __CC_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC 0, __CC_REAL_NAMES 0, __CD 0, __CT 0, __CTE 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __FORWARDED_MSG 0, __FRAUD_SUBJ_A 0, __HAS_CC_HDR 0, __HAS_FROM 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __IN_REP_TO 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_TEXT_P 0, __MIME_TEXT_P1 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __MULTIPLE_RCPTS_CC_X2 0, __NO_HTML_TAG_RAW 0, __PHISH_PHRASE1_B 0, __PHISH_SPEAR_STRUCTURE_1 0, __REFERENCES 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE 0, __TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __TO_NAME 0, __TO_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC 0, __TO_REAL_NAMES 0, __URI_NO_WWW 0, __URI_NS , __USER_AGENT 0' Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 16:05:35 -0000 On Fri, Mar 03, 2017 at 12:37:53AM +0900, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Thu, Mar 2, 2017 at 11:47 PM, Bernie Volz (volz) wrote: > > > Ted … spot on. I find the argument that DNS server addresses change on a > > frequent basis a silly argument. > > > > Please consider dynamic mesh networks and unmanaged host networks. > > Having to update any configuration information on other devices (whether > > the routers or DHCP servers and getting that propagated through the > > network) is probably not desirable and much work than just retaining the > > previous addresses of the (failed) DNS server. > > > > How are you going to do that in a home network where the user just tripped > over the power cord of the router in front of the DNS server? That address > is not even routable any more. Doesn't matter because DNS and routing are fate-shared in that case. If the only router is down, it doesn't matter if DNS is down. From nobody Thu Mar 2 08:28:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6FAFD12953A; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:28:10 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FZzgSVIF7EB2; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:28:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com (rcdn-iport-7.cisco.com [173.37.86.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2BE8129570; 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02 Mar 2017 16:28:07 +0000 Received: from XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (xch-rtp-012.cisco.com [64.101.220.152]) by alln-core-7.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v22GS7Bb020447 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 2 Mar 2017 16:28:07 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (64.101.220.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:28:07 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:28:06 -0500 From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" To: Simon Hobson , IPv6 Operations Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection Thread-Index: AQHSk3H5PR61nvg62USOXUB7zY+yQQ== Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 16:28:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <013B7A75-E5F6-4F47-9D92-33114F1781F8@cisco.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1e.0.170107 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.55.56.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "draft-bruneau-pvd.authors@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 16:28:10 -0000 U2ltb24sDQoNCllvdSBuYWlsIHRoZSBwcm9ibGVtIHRoYXQgdGhlIGRyYWZ0IGh0dHBzOi8vdG9v bHMuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaHRtbC9kcmFmdC1icnVuZWF1LXB2ZC0wMCBpcyB0cnlpbmcgdG8gYWRkcmVz cyA7LSkNCg0KQ29tbWVudHMgYXJlIHdlbGNvbWUgb2YgY291cnNlIChJIHdpbGwgc2VuZCBhIHNl cGFyYXRlIGVtYWlsIGZvciB0aG9zZSBjb21tZW50cyBpbiBhIGZldyBtaW51dGVzKS4NCg0KVGhl IG90aGVyIGRvY3VtZW50IEkgd2FzIHJlZmVyaW5nIHRvIGlzIG5vdyBleHBpcmVkOiBodHRwczov L3Rvb2xzLmlldGYub3JnL2h0bWwvZHJhZnQtaWV0Zi02bWFuLW11bHRpLWhvbWVkLWhvc3QtMTAg DQoNCi3DqXJpYw0KDQoNCk9uIDAyLzAzLzE3IDE0OjQ1LCAidjZvcHMgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIFNp bW9uIEhvYnNvbiIgPHY2b3BzLWJvdW5jZXNAaWV0Zi5vcmcgb24gYmVoYWxmIG9mIGxpbnV4QHRo ZWhvYnNvbnMuY28udWs+IHdyb3RlOg0KDQogICAgRXJpYyBWeW5ja2UgKGV2eW5ja2UpIDxldnlu Y2tlQGNpc2NvLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQogICAgDQogICAgPiBIb3cgdGltZWx5IDotKQ0KICAgID4g DQogICAgPiBUb2dldGhlciB3aXRoIG90aGVyIGZvbGtzLCB3ZSBhcmUgc3VibWl0dGluZyBhbiBJ LUQgaW4gdGhlICBjb21pbmcgaG91cnMgYWJvdXQgUHJvdmlzaW9uaW5nIERvbWFpbnMgKFB2RCkg d2hpY2ggYWRkcmVzc2VzIHlvdXIgdXNlIGNhc2Ugb2YgbXVsdGktaG9taW5nIGluIGEgJ2NvbXBs ZXggY2FzZScuDQogICAgDQogICAgSSBsb29rIGZvcndhcmQgdG8gbG9va2luZyBhdCBpdC4NCiAg ICANCiAgICA+IEFGQUlLLCB0aGVyZSBpcyBhbm90aGVyIEktRCAob3IgZXZlbiBSRkMpIHRoYXQg cmVjb21tZW5kcyBob3N0cyB0byBzZWxlY3QgdGhlIGRlZmF1bHQgcm91dGUgbmV4dC1ob3AgYmFz ZWQgb24gdGhlIHNvdXJjZSBwcmVmaXggdXNlZC4NCiAgICANCiAgICBUaGF0IGRvZXNuJ3QgcmVh bGx5IGFkZHJlc3MgdGhlIGlzc3VlLiBJdCdzIGxvZ2ljYWwgdGhhdCBmb3Igd2hpY2hldmVyIGFk ZHJlc3MgdGhlIG5vZGUgcGlja3MgdG8gdXNlIGFzIGEgc291cmNlIGFkZHJlc3MgZm9yIGFuIG91 dGJvdW5kIGNvbm5lY3Rpb24sIGl0IHNob3VsZCB1c2UgYW4gYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUgb3V0Ym91bmQg cm91dGUgLSBJIHdvdWxkIGd1ZXNzLCBsb2dpY2FsbHkgYSByb3V0ZXIgdGhhdCBhZHZlcnRpc2Vk IHRoZSBtYXRjaGluZyBwcmVmaXggYXMgb25lIGl0IHJvdXRlcyBmb3IuDQogICAgDQogICAgQnV0 IHlvdSBoYXZlIHRvIHRha2UgYSBzdGVwIGJhY2sgYW5kIGxvb2sgYXQgaG93IHRoYXQgc291cmNl IGFkZHJlc3MgaXMgcGlja2VkIC0gYmVjYXVzZSBpbiBlZmZlY3QsIHNvdXJjZSBhZGRyZXNzIHNl bGVjdGlvbiBmb3IgYW4gb3V0Ym91bmQgY29ubmVjdGlvbiBpcyBpbnRyaW5zaWNhbGx5IGxpbmtl ZCB0byByb3V0ZSBzZWxlY3Rpb24uIEllLCBpZiB0aGUgbm9kZS9zZXJ2aWNlIHBpY2tzIGFkZHJl c3MgQSB0aGVuIHRoZSBwYWNrZXQgbXVzdCBiZSByb3V0ZWQgdmlhIGNvbm5lY3Rpb24gWCwgaWYg aXQgcGlja3Mgc291cmNlIGFkZHJlc3MgQiB0aGVuIHRoZSBwYWNrZXQgbXVzdCBiZSByb3V0ZWQg dmlhIGNvbm5lY3Rpb24gWS4NCiAgICANCiAgICBTbyBpdCdzIG5vIGdvb2QgaWYgKGp1c3QgcGlj a2luZyBhbiBleGFtcGxlKSBJJ3ZlIGdvdCBhIGNvbm5lY3Rpb24gdGhhdCBpcyBnb29kIGZvciBi dWxrIHRyYW5zZmVycyAoY2hlYXAsIG1heWJlIHNsb3dlciBhbmQvb3IgaGlnaGVyIGxhdGVuY3kv aml0dGVyKSBhbmQgd2FudCB0byByb3V0ZSBteSBvdXRib3VuZCBtYWlsIHZpYSB0aGF0IGNvbm5l Y3Rpb24sIHRodXMgbGVhdmluZyB0aGUgaGlnaGVyIGNvc3QgYnV0IGJldHRlciBjb25uZWN0aW9u IGZvciBpbnRlcmFjdGl2ZSB1c2UgKGVnIGJyb3dzaW5nKSAtIGlmIHRoZSBtYWlsIHNlcnZpY2Ug dGhlbiB1c2VzIGEgc291cmNlIGFkZHJlc3MgbWVhbmluZyB0aGF0IHRoZSBwYWNrZXRzIGhhdmUg dG8gYmUgcm91dGVkIHZpYSB0aGUgbGF0dGVyIGNvbm5lY3Rpb24uDQogICAgSSBjb3VsZCBmb3Jj ZSB0aGUgbWFpbCBzZXJ2aWNlIHRvIGJpbmQgdG8ganVzdCBvbmUgYWRkcmVzcyAtIGJ1dCB0aGF0 IHRoZW4gbWVhbnMgbW9yZSBsb2NhbCBjb25maWcgLSBhbmQgaXQgYnJlYWtzIGlmIHRoZSBsYXR0 ZXIgY29ubmVjdGlvbiBnb2VzIGRvd24gYW5kIEkgbmVlZCBpdCB0byBmYWlsb3ZlciB0byB0aGUg b3RoZXIgb25lIGZvciB0aGUgZHVyYXRpb24gb2YgdGhlIG91dGFnZS4NCiAgICANCiAgICANCiAg ICBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KICAgIHY2 b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KICAgIHY2b3BzQGlldGYub3JnDQogICAgaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0 Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby92Nm9wcw0KICAgIA0KDQo= From nobody Thu Mar 2 08:31:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81A3F1294CD for ; 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[184.191.158.59]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h25sm11314727pfk.119.2017.03.02.08.31.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Mar 2017 08:31:20 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:31:19 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <38FD32ED-C942-40AA-8FC7-365A244AB7C9@gmail.com> References: <013B7A75-E5F6-4F47-9D92-33114F1781F8@cisco.com> To: Ole Troan , Simon Hobson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 16:31:23 -0000 > On Mar 2, 2017, at 6:05 AM, otroan@employees.org wrote: >=20 > (See also the work on Source address dependent routing). Fred Baker = has also a few drafts on this topic. I'm not the only one :-) Simon, take a look in rtgwg. There is some work happening for = source/destination routing in OSPF, IS-IS, BGP, and I believe Babel, and = a problem statement being considered for adoption in rtgwg as we speak. = The BGP prototype is operational in CERNET2, I'm told. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-baker-ipv6-isis-dst-src-routing = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bowbakova-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multi= homing https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-lsa-extend https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtgwg-dst-src-routing https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtgwg-multihomed-prefix-lfa https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-ospf-multi-homing-ipv6 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-src-dst-bgp From nobody Thu Mar 2 08:36:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8936D1294C0; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:36:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: 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from XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (xch-rtp-012.cisco.com [64.101.220.152]) by alln-core-10.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v22GaA38000882 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Thu, 2 Mar 2017 16:36:10 GMT Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com (64.101.220.155) by XCH-RTP-012.cisco.com (64.101.220.152) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:36:10 -0500 Received: from xch-rtp-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) by XCH-RTP-015.cisco.com ([64.101.220.155]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:36:10 -0500 From: "Eric Vyncke (evyncke)" To: IPv6 Operations Thread-Topic: New Provisioning Domain I-D draft-bruneau-pvd-00 Thread-Index: AQHSk3MZFdKKPafpQ0aa07UB43avYg== Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 16:36:09 +0000 Message-ID: <964EB030-B3AA-4096-9D2F-247CCFDE0881@cisco.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1e.0.170107 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; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:45:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.303 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.303 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=wpi.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MuiP9vB-9IDk for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:45:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from MAIL1.WPI.EDU (mail1.wpi.edu [130.215.36.91]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9AA31129435 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 08:45:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from MAIL1.WPI.EDU (MAIL1.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.91]) by MAIL1.WPI.EDU (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTP id v22GjiID030858; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:45:44 -0500 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 MAIL1.WPI.EDU v22GjiID030858 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=wpi.edu; s=_dkim; t=1488473144; bh=bOwKNNk3SgwCohk7k3427ZFRH77BW+jJITM9lwKqkg8=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=SUoNHWCFofirQB9F/F7YoTKmFbfSjUsKkL5Oig6yLN1pJKzoV2tLtT7kG5VVxxQSC BZwyAh/il67hK1qVIa2uZLdiOCqrOf12c4+U2ZKPXjaJsrSSet49d1QEVpw62moZdU o1uc0ONImYclI0aI9BD83gUT4B5mWVtarbCCVE44= Received: from milter1.wpi.edu (milter1.wpi.edu [130.215.36.49]) by MAIL1.WPI.EDU (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTP id v22GjijS030855; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:45:44 -0500 Received: from angus.ind.wpi.edu (angus.ind.wpi.edu [130.215.130.21]) by milter1.wpi.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v22GjgFg013631; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:45:43 -0500 (envelope-from cra@WPI.EDU) Received: by angus.ind.wpi.edu (Postfix, from userid 10002) id E50BEE1103; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:45:42 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 11:45:42 -0500 From: Chuck Anderson To: Ted Lemon Message-ID: <20170302164542.GP31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> References: <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> <808326F1-2160-44C6-80B1-4990B8F46196@fugue.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <808326F1-2160-44C6-80B1-4990B8F46196@fugue.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIIII, Probability=8%, Report=' HTML_00_01 0.05, HTML_00_10 0.05, SUPERLONG_LINE 0.05, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_3000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_1000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_2000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_5000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_7000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_700_799 0, DATE_TZ_NA 0, FROM_EDU_TLD 0, IN_REP_TO 0, LEGITIMATE_SIGNS 0, MSG_THREAD 0, MULTIPLE_REAL_RCPTS 0, NO_URI_HTTPS 0, REFERENCES 0, __ANY_URI 0, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ 0, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT 0, __CD 0, __CT 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __FORWARDED_MSG 0, __FRAUD_SUBJ_A 0, __HAS_CC_HDR 0, __HAS_FROM 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __IN_REP_TO 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_TEXT_P 0, __MIME_TEXT_P1 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __NO_HTML_TAG_RAW 0, __PHISH_SPEAR_STRUCTURE_1 0, __REFERENCES 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE 0, __TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __TO_NAME 0, __TO_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC 0, __TO_REAL_NAMES 0, __URI_NO_WWW 0, __URI_NS , __USER_AGENT 0' Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 16:45:46 -0000 On Thu, Mar 02, 2017 at 09:20:01AM -0500, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 2, 2017, at 12:50 AM, Chuck Anderson wrote: > > all of which would need to be updated when a DNS > > server fails. > > Does this ever actually happen on your network? On my network, if the hardware for a DNS server were to fail, it would be immediately replaced, and would have the same IP address as before. No because I used Anycast DNS. > I realize that this is a side issue, but I think it's important to be clear on whether or not the use cases we are talking about are real or concocted. This one sounds a bit concocted from my perspective, but I'm curious to hear what your actual operational practice is. It is concocted. That was my point. From nobody Thu Mar 2 09:05:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85C77129570; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 09:05:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id auGJnKBcTODJ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 09:05:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x22d.google.com (mail-pf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ECB09129435; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 09:04:59 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id e66so5441666pfe.1; Thu, 02 Mar 2017 09:04:59 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=FWzn8S5n4M9VY+LsIMilFSrDDNVXY6pbr/7hDZXTY6Y=; b=bqtHRogN4aLHe3EGSxiz1nvX1b3A+VanFTqTL6SM5UpHyqaQUfjOwJ6JsDSbtbU1hd GWSg4gHq4wf+BniKHwg2klJzM2v2q1cxiIceqhuLMPeZphcIx+efer49rHPNYN6A6Jux 5AFpxj18MH6HkYCp0QHaANKcF+Mpqqf+KQsHaEhxby/BfxQRSQ197Hjda1VcJhmUkc2y b2Zzw+wa0Zlx0w3URdgbzpbY1LJkIibER9ta/09R3iWM4m0vAAMvam0lrDP9Os8+yCQD rRv9yIGeOKvrQebdrtx31tVtpYj41XX7+ozjizyhSuAUqn4Dn1HCRR8ahmq3cDFL04Ak Gquw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=FWzn8S5n4M9VY+LsIMilFSrDDNVXY6pbr/7hDZXTY6Y=; b=RUGLsB0MSZyH5yA4Bk2CyV7xqKTFT59yxJOoUSx0RAz5EX/GDlE9m86AQ4q5ttw2+b 6OxMYc47vyfCVLlrQTpxJ9+Sk5kPcHtQSdtVZOQBAe7/Yf15VF95hvpXhowi824s1F5Q eslST3r7cFqYNsJaBP8AoQGl4ipjNAZGSnz8+p1EljaVyyx1aJC/vL1xDlMXkwqryEZk /AdUVpr9SujsjbjocaVxt9GDhVkCJw8+tAgYbFJhi/hLP+NgBQjOehMQ9oxgvWVg3NIK 2m4BRL96NA40YrYsSEbWj0PrAOAslsNhhpVmzdk2jlx5aGbyOEH/AIf72HiuxRNIwCJ8 E4vA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39kC29O9k3M2Y3yaRz2gGzx8zq/tsdpmA5mPda04YbtXSAtEIlBWu6ha4ps1J2ibxA== X-Received: by 10.99.245.21 with SMTP id w21mr16617487pgh.117.1488474299533; Thu, 02 Mar 2017 09:04:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (wsip-184-191-158-59.sd.sd.cox.net. [184.191.158.59]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q7sm18182504pfb.98.2017.03.02.09.04.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Mar 2017 09:04:58 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <964EB030-B3AA-4096-9D2F-247CCFDE0881@cisco.com> Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 09:04:57 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <964EB030-B3AA-4096-9D2F-247CCFDE0881@cisco.com> To: Eric Vyncke X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations , "draft-bruneau-pvd.authors@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Provisioning Domain I-D draft-bruneau-pvd-00 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 17:05:04 -0000 We will of course be looking for working group interest/support with = respect to an IETF 98 discussion. On Mar 2, 2017, at 8:36 AM, Eric Vyncke (evyncke) = wrote: > To come back on some recent discussions about multi-homing, may I = point to a brand new I-D = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bruneau-pvd-00 ? (no 'home' WG yet = hence the naming) > =20 > Comments are welcome obviously and if V6OPS chairs agreed, then we = would love to be able to present this I-D in Chicago. Please keep = draft-bruneau-pvd.authors@ietf.org in cc when replying > =20 > The abstract is: > =20 > This document describes different possibilities for hosts to retrieve >=20 > additional information about their Internet access configuration. >=20 > The set of configuration items required to access the Internet is >=20 > called a Provisioning Domain (PvD) and is identified by a Fully >=20 > Qualified Domain Name (or more generally a Uniform Resource = Locator). >=20 > =20 >=20 > This document separates the way of getting the Provisioning Domain >=20 > identifier, the way of getting the Provisioning Domain information >=20 > and the potential information contained in the Provisioning Domain. >=20 > =20 > Hope this helps > =20 > -basile -david -=C3=A9ric -pierre -tommy (and the other reviewers) > =20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Thu Mar 2 09:40:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A229E129597 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 09:40:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WRVZNWWDeb8x for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 09:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x243.google.com (mail-pf0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1D1F129594 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 09:40:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x243.google.com with SMTP id e66so1705665pfe.0 for ; Thu, 02 Mar 2017 09:40:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:reply-to:mime-version:subject:message-id:date:to; bh=dn3JmhRsBUE0lJ7AmluCaINdlpxG3UeszdbELheOZ14=; b=fiLMJM0BNiBxfgjhuRI23fPbWdrVghPC2R88WLe86T6MuoFdRC/9MhNII3qje9dyY8 ar6XsGdVEsYrRSunYjDhSCfa/uiGm/WzZohxpGr6SUCwhv6uBshxXywT6Bmv5dpvkwqz J7PDpQ1Q4PA5XZWquIyxY6pH2MwFh1Cq4WiU8dP9UhSf7wufuTHHb0nMhWF0MXuNJqZn g+dALetaGz5r3FQtytWIXWmx5x91p2OYDv0ckFKfcQxPcIj3mXewtSLnlGY9IWd+Vx+y aMCSiwsYsqWyCltjLuurhvlOaBwRwTXaMY8pnACpIq6D3l+d8Hq/K6UFYRQ1X2EKjvdY +xCA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:reply-to:mime-version:subject:message-id :date:to; bh=dn3JmhRsBUE0lJ7AmluCaINdlpxG3UeszdbELheOZ14=; b=l/ZiUueRcyt7Dxypy8ohWBxgr/GCgFC3RKMwXrhIES40r0qYodsVg/fab8rJwI6Dxd b7oQbfEL+Chem8BKh/yPaUdzs6DNiT0r+48w8YXN7xFpfXHqLh6s99XLj/VVG00+eJdo eZf9xKEZUmIU6UrK7y2eDi/JyAhyq6THhQKwEcfVnKz4QbKevVb/9We6R7oj1dswW6yv oqWo8gO3b8z5CupwsoTYay0H4Blmn3TJWl7jD0OscNjE30TNeQF+gAUCUqoqXjAbj1BA ad0skbFuf4sxPUaeV1IRlL8gO4eWAjGPF88nT3fiHH9Jw3Uz4MmVm32aU4Dm+8zpnqTb EYug== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39ltq+YD0sBzmR0d3s2SfPeJTUgKJIK27SWkQPO5TELSV3JtIihgj3hsmrr0VmFJCQ== X-Received: by 10.98.103.146 with SMTP id t18mr17070812pfj.135.1488476405915; Thu, 02 Mar 2017 09:40:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (wsip-184-191-158-59.sd.sd.cox.net. [184.191.158.59]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h71sm18337010pfj.65.2017.03.02.09.40.03 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Mar 2017 09:40:04 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F103A4EC-869B-467C-9E84-990269932596" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Message-Id: <11711B7F-095E-4B49-98AD-4F5D49A0AE94@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 09:40:03 -0800 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] OT: Requesting information/experience X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: Fred Baker List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 17:40:09 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F103A4EC-869B-467C-9E84-990269932596 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 ISOC has asked me to put together a report for them to publish in June = regarding the state of IPv6 deployment. I'd appreciate any help folks on = this list can give me, but I must ask that you reply privately, as it is = off-topic. I'll include some notes ISOC gave me about the intended = report, so you can see the objective and the kind of information I'm = looking for. > Project Overview >=20 > The State of IPv6 Deployment Report project aims to produce a = thorough, well-presented and impactful report on the state of IPv6 = deployment in time for the anniversary of World IPv6 Launch on June 6th, = 2017. >=20 > =20 > Project Goals >=20 > The goals of the project are as follows: >=20 > =C2=B7 To document the current state of IPv6 deployment, as = thoroughly and objectively as possible >=20 > =C2=B7 To provide a =E2=80=99one-stop-shop=E2=80=99 for someone = interested in understanding the state of IPv6 deployment progress in = mid-2017 >=20 > =C2=B7 To stimulate further deployment: "If you think IPv6 isn't = happening and that you don't need to act, here's how wrong you are." >=20 > =C2=B7 To pull together into one place all the various IPv6 = deployment statistics that are scattered across the Internet >=20 > =C2=B7 To provide a reference point and baseline for future reports = so that we can chart growth in IPv6 deployment in the months and years = ahead >=20 > =C2=B7 To document some of the innovations that are happening as well = as some of the challenges >=20 > =C2=B7 To identify and discuss the gaps in IPv6 deployment: where are = the pockets of non-deployment? >=20 > =20 > Audiences >=20 > The report has two primary audiences as follows: >=20 > =C2=B7 Executive Summary: Targeted at decision makers (business and = policy) wanting to get a quick feel for the state of IPv6 deployment as = it might impact their business and what they should do/think about it. = This section of the report will also help technology journalists writing = stories about IPv6. >=20 > =C2=B7 Body of the report: Targeted at engineers interested in a = comprehensive picture of the state of IPv6 deployment, including some = projections, recommendations and pointers to further resources. >=20 Much of the content will point to existing reports and content (and if = you have favorite content to point to, please share), but hopefully pull = it together in a way that makes the intended points. Specific content = that folks here may be able to give me or point me to include operator = case studies (timeline, what you did, what worked, what didn't), = measurement methodologies (what was measured and how it was measured), = specifics if they can be divulged (traffic ratios, customer numbers, = ratios for dual-stacked customers), regional differences, specific = applications (DNS, Email, web, etc), services (cloud, hosting, mail, = geolocation, security, etc), IoT reality, ongoing incentives and = challenges, and so on. --Apple-Mail=_F103A4EC-869B-467C-9E84-990269932596 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
ISOC has asked me to put together a report = for them to publish in June regarding the state of IPv6 deployment. I'd = appreciate any help folks on this list can give me, but I must ask that = you reply privately, as it is off-topic. I'll include some notes ISOC = gave me about the intended report, so you can see the objective and the = kind of information I'm looking for.

Project Overview

The State of IPv6 Deployment Report project aims to produce a thorough, well-presented and impactful report on the state of IPv6 deployment in = time for the anniversary of World IPv6 Launch on June 6th, = 2017.

 

Project = Goals

The goals of the project are as follows:

=C2=B7  = To document the current state of IPv6 deployment, as thoroughly and = objectively as possible

=C2=B7  = To provide a =E2=80=99one-stop-shop=E2=80=99 for someone interested in = understanding the state of IPv6 deployment progress in mid-2017

=C2=B7  = To stimulate further deployment: "If you think IPv6 isn't happening and = that you don't need to act, here's how wrong you are."

=C2=B7  = To pull together into one place all the various IPv6 deployment statistics = that are scattered across the Internet

=C2=B7  = To provide a reference point and baseline for future reports so that we can = chart growth in IPv6 deployment in the months and years ahead

=C2=B7  = To document some of the innovations that are happening as well as some of = the challenges

=C2=B7  = To identify and discuss the gaps in IPv6 deployment: where are the pockets = of non-deployment?

 

Audiences

The report has two primary audiences as follows:

=C2=B7  = Executive Summary: Targeted at decision makers (business and policy) wanting to = get a quick feel for the state of IPv6 deployment as it might impact their = business and what they should do/think about it. This section of the report will = also help technology journalists writing stories about IPv6.

=C2=B7  = Body of the report: Targeted at engineers interested in a comprehensive = picture of the state of IPv6 deployment, including some projections, = recommendations and pointers to further resources.


Much of the content will point to = existing reports and content (and if you have favorite content to point = to, please share), but hopefully pull it together in a way that makes = the intended points. Specific content that folks here may be able to = give me or point me to include operator case studies (timeline, what you = did, what worked, what didn't), measurement methodologies (what was = measured and how it was measured), specifics if they can be divulged = (traffic ratios, customer = numbers, ratios for dual-stacked customers), regional differences, specific applications = (DNS, Email, web, etc), services (cloud, hosting, mail, geolocation, security, etc), IoT = reality, ongoing incentives and challenges, and so on.
= --Apple-Mail=_F103A4EC-869B-467C-9E84-990269932596-- From nobody Thu Mar 2 13:06:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 239A612965D for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 13:06:39 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nQBQPzpJd6Se for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 13:06:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BBA09120724 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 13:06:36 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from crumpet.local (089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v22L6WGf033821 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 2 Mar 2017 21:06:33 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged) claimed to be crumpet.local Message-ID: <58B88957.2050208@foobar.org> Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 21:06:31 +0000 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.10 (Macintosh/20170123) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon References: <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> <808326F1-2160-44C6-80B1-4990B8F46196@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <808326F1-2160-44C6-80B1-4990B8F46196@fugue.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 21:06:39 -0000 Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 2, 2017, at 12:50 AM, Chuck Anderson > wrote: >> all of which would need to be updated when a DNS >> server fails. > > Does this ever actually happen on your network? On my network, if the > hardware for a DNS server were to fail, it would be immediately > replaced, and would have the same IP address as before. > > I realize that this is a side issue, but I think it's important to be > clear on whether or not the use cases we are talking about are real or > concocted. This one sounds a bit concocted from my perspective, but > I'm curious to hear what your actual operational practice is. These alleged use cases are about as realistic as the spherical cow in a vacuum. This and its sister argument of "DHCP has no effective way of updating a host's default router nor deal[ing] with default router failure" are both restatements of: Under what circumstances is it necessary to roll out an unexpected mass renumbering of DNS servers / default gateways with a guaranteed cut-over time of N seconds, where N is small? The answer is: very rarely, and if it's that big an issue, RAs almost certainly won't cut it. Operators handle problems like this automatically (e.g. anycast dns or a first-hope redundancy protocol for gateways) or manually and from a practical point of view, it matters not in the slightest whether the numeric identifier of these services is delivered by RAs or DHCPv6 because those mechanisms are not used for providing high availability. Neither scales adequately or provides the desired high availability characteristics necessary for this purpose. If guarantees of uptime are important, services operators will use anycast dns and some form of FHRP for the default gateway, and they monitor downstream services of both to ensure service continuity. RAs add nothing in this situation and they scale terribly badly for HA because you need to tweak the time intervals down to silly levels to make it work even sub-par. Non professional service operators (e.g. Ma, Pa, Grandma, Joe's Tackle & Bait, or "We Sue You" Legal Services Corp.) get preconfigured devices which publish dns and default gateway addresses either via dhcp or RAs. If there are problems, both DNS server and default gateway failure are usually symptoms of some other underlying problem, e.g. dead wifi, DSL dropped, someone jiggled the cable to the workstation, the cleaner unplugged the server to vacuum around it, etc. In other words, not situations where performing a mass renumbering of the default gateway or the dns server is going to make much of a difference unless there's been a network design put in place, which, given the nature of what we're talking about in this situation, is not ever going to have happened. Operationally, I've never come across a situation where there was a requirement to change DNS server or default gateway on lots of machines in a matter of seconds without any prior warning, where it wasn't easier and simpler to provide alternative service by renumbering another gateway or dns server. For sure, DNS server and gateway renumbering happens, but it's a planned, phased event which requires the usual balancing act between cost of loss of service and cost of reducing cutover time, and there is generally no reason that the cutover time should be measured in seconds. Hours would usually be great fine, and days often quite adequate. If a server or a gateway fails and there's no automatic failover mechanism in place, it's easier to replace with a device with the same ip address than add to your woes by attempting a service identifier renumber at the same time as a service failure. That would be a stupid thing to do. If the network operator is attempting to renumber a network in an instant, handling it automatically would probably work fine in labs or other contrived situations, and would almost certainly end in entertaining levels of fail if attempted on an actual production network. So with due respect to those people who propose that this is a problem worth fixing at a protocol level, it isn't in my books, and the solution it provides is for the most part unfit for purpose. Note that I'm not denying that there are situations where RAs provides an elegant solution for providing connectivity assistance tokens. I'm sure several people involved in operations on this working group deploy these protocol mechanisms in situations where it's appropriate. However, if they've done this, I have no doubt that this is the consequence of applying the right tool for the job rather than specifying the tool and demanding that the problem comply with the solution. Overall this argument is a canard and it is frankly an embarrassment to see it rolled out as a reason for disparaging dhcpv6 on such a regular basis. Nick From nobody Thu Mar 2 13:20:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96743129653 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 13:20:20 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PpZY2yO56Rbn for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 13:20:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B93CE120724 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 13:20:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 785B33493C7; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 21:20:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61ACD16009F; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 21:20:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4974C1600A5; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 21:20:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id Ly7Zx156OmR1; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 21:20:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7167016009F; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 21:20:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5D7C865D2D53; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:20:07 +1100 (EST) To: Fernando Gont From: Mark Andrews References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <7538ee3e-d9c8-bcf1-3908-41c0007bbc99@si6networks.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> <163ebf4b-f3bc-b52c-91c7-6c90ce14d93a@si6networks.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DAD125D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 02 Mar 2017 03:38:04 -0300." Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 08:20:07 +1100 Message-Id: <20170302212007.5D7C865D2D53@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 21:20:20 -0000 In message , Fernando Gon t writes: > Hello, Barbara, > > On 03/01/2017 03:54 PM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > [....] > > > > If an enterprise wants to insist on only DHCPv6 (for IPv6 address > > and/or DNS server addresses), then they will only be allowing > > connection by hosts that support DHCPv6. If an enterprise wants to > > insist on only RDNSS and SLAAC, then they will only be allowing > > connections by hosts that support these. If an enterprise has a > > router that doesn't do RDNSS, but they want RDNSS, then they need to > > demand it. Apparently, Microsoft did, and got it. > > Folks have already chimmed in on this one: Microsoft probably doesn't > qualify as a regular enterprise. > > > > > The enterprise > > controls the purchase of the enterprise router. Therefore, they have > > the ability to influence it. The enterprise who controls what > > attaches to that router can dictate requirements for attaching hosts. > > Not really. IN many BYOD scenarios, this is not actually truth. > > > > The enterprise who does not control what attaches, has no ability to > > control what attaches. The enterprise who wants to let anything > > attach MUST support RDNSS and stateless-or-stateful DHCPv6. Just like > > CE routers. That is what it is. > > And it's a sad state of affairs. > > > > > What if a host vendor (or host OS vendor) wants to provide hosts to > > DHCPv6-only enterprises? They implement DHCPv6. What if they don't > > care about such enterprises? Then they don't care. Participants at > > IETF should not attempt to use IETF in an attempt to force uncaring > > vendors to implement. The marketplace is the bully, not IETF. Either > > the vendors see demand for the functionality, or they don't. > > > > Let the free market and human nature do their job. The necessary > > standards exists. Barbara > > We, as an SDO, are offering two half-baked solutions for automatic > configuration...and that's bad. No. We offered a fully baked solution (set O and use DHCPv6) and later we offered a alternative RDNSS which would work for equipement that also support it. In my opinion we should document this state of affairs. > What's worse, many of the ops folks that are struggling to deploy v6 > have no much of a clue about this sad situation, and thy will eventually > find out the hard way: when they phase v4 out, and find that, for many > nodes, DNS information is now gone. > > Thanks, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Thu Mar 2 13:29:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C2BFF129668 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 13:29:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fT4aB38OhTxp for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 13:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x22b.google.com (mail-pg0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DD9012964D for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 13:29:56 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id 16so1872981pga.1 for ; Thu, 02 Mar 2017 13:29:56 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TeSztV0+oXnAIIapPhflAWy9ArNqT8xSdhTabelWkas=; b=rCVDjilYWq1YPUg+Zf0G/ee411eClRTVrhl+ehx6k/aPZ8T8ew2wf2JuLd0eorps39 VyPsFQIbeUtF9Zh9c44c2UPm1yUzzyibXafCSw24xJ4+lFlXC8CA76ygYpEAIDxZ1kXp gDeQctVjEGSMPqZ/A2iOMyD+bF6puRIu1TV22F2G/M7Kg+GFSeW1kmohNYgHnS0aRzvS 4sIKD4TPwzJW+AD+44Hys62W44o17tlqo08y6+wVcGsdzFMJNBxU8eeS3js2BuaYZEv+ SJT85mtmvaLfEulJHmcOKv2gOel26weQac8W6ixF5JROMieL0J2wBr57nUFNLjgPq8Jk QkjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=TeSztV0+oXnAIIapPhflAWy9ArNqT8xSdhTabelWkas=; b=tXU5zU9rFQJaTXeFyeQ4bTKhRgG4QcRvHQeoGlApGJqMgCIQ4wAXM9BL+7Vo5hrqwR 8Fl3B5p9JpEtQpmxhAaUHjdy3fzqngW3vQc/2ISo7zJQi/QcQyN+BFOyO0hRQ5E26TYG A0XM+nvI8CowtSkaO+Fsg/T7dnz1CoH+6bxc2+5tlS+nQo06Pn+0CLrhJGi1JBJVKR7K mYI31wk61KyLqyyu5HG8bqMi5cp/2tk7oFOO9MrgSYBqy2VD/CojzN7Li7FjGEo2Nj87 8eKWv1GoXBK4v7BmhHrUb1DlUcpb11zBs/RLwFhEoX0haCsL6eJEPtHZNWVNgUrdBmsq DjkA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39kxVs3TiKbzer9KjOIEq7xwDnpItH7OrBjEeAXMCV9BQdnXTGxPR306ZwHiS3awQA== X-Received: by 10.98.163.141 with SMTP id q13mr18287051pfl.72.1488490195455; Thu, 02 Mar 2017 13:29:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.21] ([118.149.111.252]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 132sm2011975pgf.27.2017.03.02.13.29.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 02 Mar 2017 13:29:54 -0800 (PST) To: Simon Hobson , IPv6 Operations References: <013B7A75-E5F6-4F47-9D92-33114F1781F8@cisco.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <912564df-39e3-fe19-95b1-84777ccba904@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:29:59 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 21:29:58 -0000 On 03/03/2017 02:45, Simon Hobson wrote: > Eric Vyncke (evyncke) wrote: > >> How timely :-) >> >> Together with other folks, we are submitting an I-D in the coming hours about Provisioning Domains (PvD) which addresses your use case of multi-homing in a 'complex case'. > > I look forward to looking at it. > >> AFAIK, there is another I-D (or even RFC) that recommends hosts to select the default route next-hop based on the source prefix used. > > That doesn't really address the issue. That would be https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8028 and it addresses the *host* side of the issue. For the routing side, see Fred's message (https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/mMcqemOcu9U5D7fWyuIS0UNKg4w ). Work in progress though, not solved yet. However, it avoids the complexity of PVDs. Brian > It's logical that for whichever address the node picks to use as a source address for an outbound connection, it should use an appropriate outbound route - I would guess, logically a router that advertised the matching prefix as one it routes for. > > But you have to take a step back and look at how that source address is picked - because in effect, source address selection for an outbound connection is intrinsically linked to route selection. Ie, if the node/service picks address A then the packet must be routed via connection X, if it picks source address B then the packet must be routed via connection Y. > > So it's no good if (just picking an example) I've got a connection that is good for bulk transfers (cheap, maybe slower and/or higher latency/jitter) and want to route my outbound mail via that connection, thus leaving the higher cost but better connection for interactive use (eg browsing) - if the mail service then uses a source address meaning that the packets have to be routed via the latter connection. > I could force the mail service to bind to just one address - but that then means more local config - and it breaks if the latter connection goes down and I need it to failover to the other one for the duration of the outage. > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > . > From nobody Thu Mar 2 14:12:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98102129697 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 14:12:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id h7ykeKiJu5Kw for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 14:12:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A12FB129694 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 14:12:51 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from crumpet.local (089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v22MCjjV043403 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 2 Mar 2017 22:12:45 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged) claimed to be crumpet.local Message-ID: <58B898DC.40405@foobar.org> Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 22:12:44 +0000 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.10 (Macintosh/20170123) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lorenzo Colitti References: <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> <808326F1-2160-44C6-80B1-4990B8F46196@fugue.com> <13788799a5b642709fb6e5b30afb35b3@XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 22:12:53 -0000 Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > How are you going to do that in a home network where the user just > tripped over the power cord of the router in front of the DNS server? > That address is not even routable any more. This is a difficult situation because you're describing a situation where a protocol would need to be designed to handle homenets with automatic monitoring of DNS server queries to provide a feedback mechanism which could reconfigure the RA on CPE devices if the DNS servers went offline. It could do something clever like running a multicast dns query or bonjour or something to detect new dns servers on the home network and then feed the result back into a new multicast group which could signal to the RA router. We'd need some new line protocols but yeah, this is definitely feasible assuming Ma & Pa's homenet is running a multitude of independently provisioned dedicated DNS servers. The performance and scalability characteristics could be pretty good, assuming constant background polling for spare DNS servers to build up a local cache on the polling server, and with a small amount of work, we could also build up a preference list based on performance results. This is good stuff. We could get at least 2-3 RFCs out of this. Ah, I see what you're at: the user should plug the power cable back in! Oh you! Nick From nobody Thu Mar 2 14:58:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C638127A90 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 14:58:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uUW3o9HPvAMl for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 14:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F64A1270B4 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 14:58:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.3.83] (unknown [181.165.116.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 41E1980BCC; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 23:58:34 +0100 (CET) To: Mark Andrews References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> <163ebf4b-f3bc-b52c-91c7-6c90ce14d93a@si6networks.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DAD125D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <20170302212007.5D7C865D2D53@rock.dv.isc.org> From: Fernando Gont X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 19:58:16 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170302212007.5D7C865D2D53@rock.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 22:58:42 -0000 On 03/02/2017 06:20 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: [...] >> We, as an SDO, are offering two half-baked solutions for automatic >> configuration...and that's bad. > > No. We offered a fully baked solution (set O and use DHCPv6) and > later we offered a alternative RDNSS which would work for equipement > that also support it. Shame on us: stateless DHCPv6 support is required. Hence, setting O to 1 will not necessarily mean hosts will employ DHCPv6 to e.g. configure DNS information. > In my opinion we should document this state of affairs. At the very least, document it. But please see the above: we didn't do our best job when declaring what must be supported and what need not. Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Thu Mar 2 15:03:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C263127601 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 15:03:55 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wvbWTU0W_OeM for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 15:03:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E45A3126D73 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 15:03:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 02 Mar 2017 23:03:53 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 576C5D788D; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 15:03:53 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=kJc3xy4SX4d5gWd+OvHEhWFYOBQ=; b= PCsluhoSkZkUwlvnMMOa78pMB5f8MRwGNCHxMoeiZ85Z47oBx2xCS/DFVn9OAYDP glIFaSOydHcM+lj2ixmbjTnGF5zjbXhSvPMxj/xo93XKqzkV+b0nw2k0C5aAif6V oaXcFA0paz0Mo0Mly3JdMAamCSf8+Wemku2beRem+oY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=UGd8E9eFE4KqizqY+th2vnV dgljBkA/nC5390hslCEdrkW5oPw8WazCa41dp07VZpsmf/IAyqul1ugv3FQswiVL +l/spf1rNV6zqkJLcW/7qa6RhRr2Fu7Cx8QUrH37AloAorOBofKfQdKLoRB5Gd7S DaYTEWKkj0jeQQJSAQRg= Received: from h.hanazo.no (96.51-175-103.customer.lyse.net [51.175.103.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id D696FD788B; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 15:03:52 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54E26934E153; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 00:03:51 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <247AA730-89E0-48B5-8247-CF6F26E1BC3B@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9AD8D5B4-CF7C-41D9-ACCB-8BC9778A5CEC"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 00:03:50 +0100 In-Reply-To: To: Fernando Gont References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> <163ebf4b-f3bc-b52c-91c7-6c90ce14d93a@si6networks.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DAD125D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <20170302212007.5D7C865D2D53@rock.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:03:55 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9AD8D5B4-CF7C-41D9-ACCB-8BC9778A5CEC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Fernando, > [...] >>> We, as an SDO, are offering two half-baked solutions for automatic >>> configuration...and that's bad. >>=20 >> No. We offered a fully baked solution (set O and use DHCPv6) and >> later we offered a alternative RDNSS which would work for equipement >> that also support it. >=20 > Shame on us: stateless DHCPv6 support is required. Hence, setting O to = 1 > will not necessarily mean hosts will employ DHCPv6 to e.g. configure = DNS > information. >=20 >=20 >=20 >> In my opinion we should document this state of affairs. >=20 > At the very least, document it. But please see the above: we didn't do > our best job when declaring what must be supported and what need not. RFC6434 section 7. You need to do a serious reality check if you think writing yet another = document saying exactly the same thing one more time is going to change = the world. Cheers, Ole --Apple-Mail=_9AD8D5B4-CF7C-41D9-ACCB-8BC9778A5CEC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYuKTXAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92JjMQAM4JlmkTKqtiMD0xfFnO21zk LYHT1y2KXOoLM6YmtGBfnM9m/Af4pdZ6iruHa7RuEF1QO3MTEQ8cKnG5518gpc5q oavh0ukZjRyK1ZUIBYNAmPxgdu99F+CpxuzqRE0aArPchRYckgR69GKs3KL7TB9p k/w3OxKOiAhPOs+zqQyYNcJ6ID39a0hVBRhKE+9Abxw9CeOs5eqRUmE+w2NgAqmb QYcc5CSupCHoLXnWEPylfQ+/uOuFEXlhlcYyJcAUz+x4Q8Fu5aUhiGKMk9MFUYRY VQda4lcABe2H4CzzxJbTT1plUjgcSnnhMLtTKI4hP2mqJB5PTn5/CXbZj9PbAlAh MRXh22VpNE/mMnEZeAlQPH6xCU/aGbPJ/AtZbSh1870mX9nPUgQ3UnrTjahdL1V/ /tXmgGksJxqo8c7oBSYG/InZ7jmnk/N0xWfAm05dW9AIURj/zrqD8CwwnOlPVify HjpP9NkEOTouJb+xPx04AkmWjpyCfd6e248EavIK6V1xGza0ahMhsI/zR7TO0ueP 460K0ZJatkbwMBEMVogHv3zJHYWC1OPZ/2o7Nl2b89zB3YgUTkDZdhBhcL+fop8D AM9GQfKVcNMy13cNmDJ2SevUPYeAzwFyEns2dM/wmJ9xc0q8HFO/UAceDF6pdj8h FJSzkzwNUkZuv7att72g =6Il2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9AD8D5B4-CF7C-41D9-ACCB-8BC9778A5CEC-- From nobody Thu Mar 2 15:17:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 279E6127ABE for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 15:17:30 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GsFH5sY6IdvY for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 15:17:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [199.6.1.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB593127A90 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 15:17:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A739A24AE09; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 23:16:05 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C5E5616009F; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 23:16:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2F721600A6; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 23:16:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id GNpF5HX3hG3o; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 23:16:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 2EC4E16009F; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 23:16:04 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF53F65D39AF; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:16:00 +1100 (EST) To: Fernando Gont From: Mark Andrews References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> <163ebf4b-f3bc-b52c-91c7-6c90ce14d93a@si6networks.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DAD125D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <20170302212007.5D7C865D2D53@rock.dv.isc.org> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 02 Mar 2017 19:58:16 -0300." Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 10:16:00 +1100 Message-Id: <20170302231600.DF53F65D39AF@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 02 Mar 2017 23:17:30 -0000 In message , Fernando Gon t writes: > On 03/02/2017 06:20 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > [...] > >> We, as an SDO, are offering two half-baked solutions for automatic > >> configuration...and that's bad. > > > > No. We offered a fully baked solution (set O and use DHCPv6) and > > later we offered a alternative RDNSS which would work for equipement > > that also support it. > > Shame on us: stateless DHCPv6 support is required. Hence, setting O to 1 > will not necessarily mean hosts will employ DHCPv6 to e.g. configure DNS > information. We really shouldn't have to treat developers as babies. We produced a RFC that provided a solution for anyone that wanted to support automatic configuration of recursive DNS servers. If OS developers are too stupid to follow it, that really shouldn't be our problem. We can't get around OS developers (host and router) that say "I don't want to do X" which is basically what this entire thread boils down to. I don't want to do both RA and DHCP. A pox on router and host vendors that say this. Stop being babies and grow up. > > In my opinion we should document this state of affairs. > > At the very least, document it. But please see the above: we didn't do > our best job when declaring what must be supported and what need not. > > Thanks, > -- > Fernando Gont > SI6 Networks > e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com > PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 > > > > -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Thu Mar 2 15:57:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EC6BE129405 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 15:57:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.32 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.32 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] 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(No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 986E71296A3 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 17:12:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id e66so8984624pfe.1 for ; Thu, 02 Mar 2017 17:12:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=cMUd+GqXiTtEqYmcxDJxIQPioXfKQ4XCtHc5cHlYdEw=; b=NsEv3PkvhHgIJKU4Qh7buWw3g9UTcDUK3/4pdU8QgIx3ure7GQl2dniZEOhlyYyjf6 JdevUSR7tJZp0DS1SP+r/kG+F6DmWF8QyN3nKXF9Qk9hsWEATvbuQylDr+f3YDf+EnbW GPNHdU2mpfC80CgBhB9Ip/nQOc6AkQu8CfPs92Zsbrz1EC5FgOGO1nDpsmYLRp3oOdXy pKfEJ+w6d0VtClgN3LDfs9G22+zCpu82z6fV2yja3e/w/AoEiIeBpWylFu17PP7BktnH WVLVygTF0gZodFndsnnicGyrQKil0QFyxIkYsymcxIijlmU/iki3oie99+TB/LfyBbc7 v7qQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:organization 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<4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:12:53 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 01:12:51 -0000 On 02/03/2017 18:50, Chuck Anderson wrote: ... > IPAM vendors don't talk to routers to update their RA > config. I expect some of them do, but if yours doesn't, and you want Android devices on your network to be able to do DNS over v6, you need to fill that gap somehow. Brian From nobody Thu Mar 2 19:26:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38A901296B3 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 19:26:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.303 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.303 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=wpi.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OmbNBN6fFpA6 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 19:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from MAIL1.WPI.EDU (mail1.wpi.edu [130.215.36.91]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C166A129407 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 19:26:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from MAIL1.WPI.EDU (MAIL1.WPI.EDU [130.215.36.91]) by MAIL1.WPI.EDU (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTP id v233QP8D001060; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 22:26:25 -0500 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.10.3 MAIL1.WPI.EDU v233QP8D001060 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=wpi.edu; s=_dkim; t=1488511585; bh=1w1kweZGeeonwIY1JYPbkPUwP/RS3ajDgod2421iHaA=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=FsxBgEA5zlvsKTcf54zCmBTwHBCYg5sChm9arJxXUdldXYhBIYGOTGD95VBFrA76k x1bd7rVeaRELWN8EMmB42eeC5IR4qSfDMnkHKnKz530k2QBOGVrIQ4on82en2ME3qh AQB/PFOksmw4qA5EwN6hxMI6GjcYejduJ64EmsQg= Received: from milter1.wpi.edu (milter1.wpi.edu [130.215.36.49]) by MAIL1.WPI.EDU (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTP id v233QPqI001057; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 22:26:25 -0500 Received: from angus.ind.wpi.edu (angus.ind.wpi.edu [130.215.130.21]) by milter1.wpi.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v233QN8A028270; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 22:26:24 -0500 (envelope-from cra@WPI.EDU) Received: by angus.ind.wpi.edu (Postfix, from userid 10002) id 69BF7E0FEB; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 22:26:23 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 2 Mar 2017 22:26:23 -0500 From: Chuck Anderson To: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <20170303032623.GR31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> References: <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.21 (2010-09-15) X-PerlMx-Spam: Gauge=IIIIIIII, Probability=8%, Report=' HTML_00_01 0.05, HTML_00_10 0.05, BODYTEXTP_SIZE_3000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_1000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_2000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_5000_LESS 0, BODY_SIZE_600_699 0, BODY_SIZE_7000_LESS 0, DATE_TZ_NA 0, FROM_EDU_TLD 0, IN_REP_TO 0, LEGITIMATE_SIGNS 0, MSG_THREAD 0, MULTIPLE_REAL_RCPTS 0, NO_CTA_URI_FOUND 0, NO_URI_FOUND 0, NO_URI_HTTPS 0, REFERENCES 0, __BOUNCE_CHALLENGE_SUBJ 0, __BOUNCE_NDR_SUBJ_EXEMPT 0, __CD 0, __CT 0, __CT_TEXT_PLAIN 0, __FORWARDED_MSG 0, __FRAUD_SUBJ_A 0, __HAS_CC_HDR 0, __HAS_FROM 0, __HAS_MSGID 0, __IN_REP_TO 0, __MIME_TEXT_ONLY 0, __MIME_TEXT_P 0, __MIME_TEXT_P1 0, __MIME_VERSION 0, __NO_HTML_TAG_RAW 0, __PHISH_SPEAR_STRUCTURE_1 0, __REFERENCES 0, __SANE_MSGID 0, __SUBJ_ALPHA_NEGATE 0, __TO_MALFORMED_2 0, __TO_NAME 0, __TO_NAME_DIFF_FROM_ACC 0, __TO_REAL_NAMES 0, __USER_AGENT 0' Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 03:26:29 -0000 On Fri, Mar 03, 2017 at 02:12:53PM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 02/03/2017 18:50, Chuck Anderson wrote: > ... > > IPAM vendors don't talk to routers to update their RA > > config. > > I expect some of them do, but if yours doesn't, and you want > Android devices on your network to be able to do DNS over v6, > you need to fill that gap somehow. I'll just do Anycast DNS. Then it won't matter if I choose to use DHCPv6 or RA. My point was that the argument that RA is better because you can more quickly update the DNS server address during a DNS server failure was a contrived case that no one would rely on. From nobody Thu Mar 2 20:14:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD40A1296DF for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:14:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vq0jRfakJvvH for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:14:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua0-x232.google.com (mail-ua0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AF901296EC for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:14:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua0-x232.google.com with SMTP id 72so102320666uaf.3 for ; Thu, 02 Mar 2017 20:14:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SzRI8pHZ+/ofweH4vCWABP0PNLP2siI3sGS9q9q5CbU=; b=cw4GW7Ddgs9nmUlj2DZdY54S3mefT/U1HwVhDK30x4WJiSUOaF/wUydkNshn4fkZRH sK76+AcXSsTueClR0Exsb4slV6uXwo0h9Knfe9WyMLkrCKun6lQIkid+GwjkwFWpX3iW mYNezS5IPuvQLxwDHr5iGG0fi1OJuT4Wx4oWzZJXujnxxW7ce67W2WRQKHRg4TnY3U5u 8f4LRHkW3vFc1y7aVRirevvRzMYLcRfsvvn/0ZGZJzM+Q/6ZkifJPyBL2TD4k4/5Ed5P 8QLbvNcLifUWsSnN/CnOeCogrtqIoV8ow/H2FKm1BL8dKD6jmPJafC72iVhs9Js0Tn29 Nnkw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SzRI8pHZ+/ofweH4vCWABP0PNLP2siI3sGS9q9q5CbU=; b=kgcpY9RY0+sVZqSiwwX9QBsq3QrgV+D1GYoetPNSbKbmD4DHKJoEmf57jh07sqCogF d+h1Nia7LW5YRAPlt/PBWS6Tp/oaNPGYkCftW3MsWNS/Pfl+Z7mLulBTrFpCumymWDYs ra+MuOhFewzQSt6S7zQR2qoTW413B8/a79QKUem+ZbqUNaWI3cWnFw5CzpZ43tW3ixMa csH0TN1crLHe39WpGKsY3aW0qBku260HUYXXTJknsGgs7m+i6gIAGFxR0xOZeatqBhSS hNJwTFg+T4WOXm9Bldpbg4uG2vRKEjQF4VjfH7SmsLZP1vl4w4GEkrcG2U250/bAw/Da XLgQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39ms/Dh3mp6I9iNwTubpf+Td9mUCOaDas59hjn9W2WVvxirzp/sRveSXnE+GNx2AII09xrw+gnkdvSxwfvdi X-Received: by 10.176.1.5 with SMTP id 5mr254396uak.30.1488514466343; Thu, 02 Mar 2017 20:14:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.171.2 with HTTP; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 20:14:05 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <58B898DC.40405@foobar.org> References: <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> <808326F1-2160-44C6-80B1-4990B8F46196@fugue.com> <13788799a5b642709fb6e5b30afb35b3@XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com> <58B898DC.40405@foobar.org> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 13:14:05 +0900 Message-ID: To: Nick Hilliard Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d058c02ba1b0549cbc89f Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 04:14:29 -0000 --001a113d058c02ba1b0549cbc89f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 7:12 AM, Nick Hilliard wrote: > > How are you going to do that in a home network where the user just > > tripped over the power cord of the router in front of the DNS server? > > That address is not even routable any more. > > This is a difficult situation because you're describing a situation > where a protocol would need to be designed to handle homenets with > automatic monitoring of DNS server queries to provide a feedback > mechanism which could reconfigure the RA on CPE devices if the DNS > servers went offline. It could do something clever like running a > multicast dns query or bonjour or something to detect new dns servers on > the home network and then feed the result back into a new multicast > group which could signal to the RA router. We'd need some new line > protocols but yeah, this is definitely feasible assuming Ma & Pa's > homenet is running a multitude of independently provisioned dedicated > DNS servers. The performance and scalability characteristics could be > pretty good, assuming constant background polling for spare DNS servers > to build up a local cache on the polling server, and with a small amount > of work, we could also build up a preference list based on performance > results. This is good stuff. We could get at least 2-3 RFCs out of this. > Appreciate the irony, but the reality is that most of the problem is solved by HNCP and DNCP. Said solution is much better than your (presumably intentionally suboptimal) solution above, but it still relies on being able to tell the host that something changed. --001a113d058c02ba1b0549cbc89f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On F= ri, Mar 3, 2017 at 7:12 AM, Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> wr= ote:
> How are you go= ing to do that in a home network where the user just
> tripped over the power cord of the router in front of the DNS server?<= br> > That address is not even routable any more.

This is a difficult situation because you're describing a situat= ion
where a protocol would need to be designed to handle homenets with
automatic monitoring of DNS server queries to provide a feedback
mechanism which could reconfigure the RA on CPE devices if the DNS
servers went offline.=C2=A0 It could do something clever like running a
multicast dns query or bonjour or something to detect new dns servers on the home network and then feed the result back into a new multicast
group which could signal to the RA router.=C2=A0 We'd need some new lin= e
protocols but yeah, this is definitely feasible assuming Ma & Pa's<= br> homenet is running a multitude of independently provisioned dedicated
DNS servers.=C2=A0 The performance and scalability characteristics could be=
pretty good, assuming constant background polling for spare DNS servers
to build up a local cache on the polling server, and with a small amount of work, we could also build up a preference list based on performance
results.=C2=A0 This is good stuff.=C2=A0 We could get at least 2-3 RFCs out= of this.
=C2=A0
Appreciate the irony, but t= he reality is that most of the problem is solved by HNCP and DNCP. Said sol= ution is much better than your (presumably intentionally suboptimal) soluti= on above, but it still relies on being able to tell the host that something= changed.
--001a113d058c02ba1b0549cbc89f-- From nobody Thu Mar 2 23:48:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA659129712 for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 23:48:33 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lOgMay1HSoFL for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 23:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B2DE21296FA for ; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 23:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 03 Mar 2017 07:48:32 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DFB5D788D; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 23:48:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=Z8fe/LpK6/yJnwpRmR0boZQtFBw=; b= RQLv9IfWBpjyUex41Sr7OWUZMl1xOIAP4eS7LfQiQ5anOG7Mkg0TWkTCJXRbLbIS Rd6Vy1HM4yWOnfzfnznXQgjSZ6q7CJbTFsc1I9x0uu/TyJoWjxvgmaEB86ckgRUu CLmV4+48md9tyMSjtnyqWTPU7mHnsERT4LnSvTbK/7A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=LjfyQrraEc1Df9YFQFEazkz MoS7xIveZtGQ2LTtZlSoxuTAiUPU8u/zCFuxbXZmX38QbRuKs7Ed+NfKolHxHvt7 qa4PqU5F4MEAvfLUY8O6XzLA8h56vd8sc3T2Z6GOBJMHVE7kaRHwzfEymo/vjfB4 3lS+7eUD5SQO5GsAVIjw= Received: from h.hanazo.no (unknown [173.38.220.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0FCE6D788B; Thu, 2 Mar 2017 23:48:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 78BB8935077B; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:48:33 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <82389494-C8A8-4E50-AE01-C7B5F29C99D7@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_0446B912-0A6E-4073-B1AC-8064D81685BB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:48:33 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20170302231600.DF53F65D39AF@rock.dv.isc.org> To: Mark Andrews References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> <163ebf4b-f3bc-b52c-91c7-6c90ce14d93a@si6networks.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DAD125D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <20170302212007.5D7C865D2D53@rock.dv.isc.org> <20170302231600.DF53F65D39AF@rock.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: Fernando Gont , IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 07:48:34 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_0446B912-0A6E-4073-B1AC-8064D81685BB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>> We, as an SDO, are offering two half-baked solutions for automatic >>>> configuration...and that's bad. >>>=20 >>> No. We offered a fully baked solution (set O and use DHCPv6) and >>> later we offered a alternative RDNSS which would work for equipement >>> that also support it. >>=20 >> Shame on us: stateless DHCPv6 support is required. Hence, setting O = to 1 >> will not necessarily mean hosts will employ DHCPv6 to e.g. configure = DNS >> information. >=20 > We really shouldn't have to treat developers as babies. We produced > a RFC that provided a solution for anyone that wanted to support > automatic configuration of recursive DNS servers. >=20 > If OS developers are too stupid to follow it, that really shouldn't > be our problem. We can't get around OS developers (host and router) > that say "I don't want to do X" which is basically what this entire > thread boils down to. I don't want to do both RA and DHCP. A pox > on router and host vendors that say this. Stop being babies and grow > up. Another plausible explanation is that someone is engaging in the game of = RFC number collection... Ole --Apple-Mail=_0446B912-0A6E-4073-B1AC-8064D81685BB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYuR/RAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92tP8P/00KKu83vpBFVu0nuIb6Dvv+ kK4/8zgM+G847BvkmT2VEG5KswifMmYGnHkTwTiJ4ApJM/gp0g2Nyf8EhCOefhsL O3FrNOMy9jCPfFEhWTyT5AalxNYefWmKk0rPXmqrBSi35tn+tq8X80MbC52mSPhQ Li0pSmfrr35qm89Nl19qk8yd7QTwMr3hoevPUUSS56vsc2ldOQ9cFVgu3hp0o4K9 xFMKpt/NIqP1p8uezor+A3s8R3XztjzO0y3/V7nMYN31eaUqZnz+y3bIwWLHaBl4 y8AKW8Pa8SmmgShpRD1TmROJ5tApDhu7OSP8TR6maxtH0qAusw52//wTGSkXY2wF T0EyuVr7lUIFj6sWzRqpIXndiBxsMF0mM+6a8rq4HniFuNsZ0Q6I7yvMITZi6Dil 0im64Bwycmy2anezLIBGFWnBg06H3uDEkiSzOAsDktAa2QJCB6o7q6WVV1LN3F1i QTTpmfs65N6UHmSzZxTmYHa+RTtCZyXkjIDjOqkiP9ttMxAYQr7bM2+BG+0Uqcb+ gUgrDoHFQHSL2TvL7czW73R5E9IeIUD59pQjDGBcRaui+Jt/QeCWb2upV/xhBkMQ 81ri2uuAeLBAaKBCshTJ1Q99BGEtoiHgjO9vohRyDj9ezBEWKFgR32nf3t4PptiW pJYJMaiZDb44feV8zGS2 =CooR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_0446B912-0A6E-4073-B1AC-8064D81685BB-- From nobody Fri Mar 3 02:43:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADCBB12942F for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 02:43:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Kfd5f41txpaJ for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 02:43:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo.hq.phicoh.net [130.37.15.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3BC9126CD8 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 02:43:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #127) id m1cjkgM-0000ILC; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:43:30 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> <163ebf4b-f3bc-b52c-91c7-6c90ce14d93a@si6networks.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DAD125D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <20170302212007.5D7C865D2D53@rock.dv.isc.org> <247AA730-89E0-48B5-8247-CF6F26E1BC3B@employees.org> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 3 Mar 2017 00:03:50 +0100 ." <247AA730-89E0-48B5-8247-CF6F26E1BC3B@employees.org> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 11:43:29 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 10:43:37 -0000 >RFC6434 section 7. > >You need to do a serious reality check if you think writing yet another >document saying exactly the same thing one more time is going to change >the world. Maybe we take ourselves a bit more seriously. RFC 6434 is published as Informational. "This document is not an Internet Standards Track specification; it is published for informational purposes." So basically we are telling the reader: we don't care if you follow this or not. Do whatever you like. This not important enough to be a standard or a BCP. Now assuming that reader wants to follow this document, we give the following advice: Section 7.2.1 "If a host implementation supports applications or other protocols that "require configuration that is only available via DHCP, hosts SHOULD "implement DHCP. Okay, what about DNS resolvers? DNS resolvers are also available from RA. So obviously, the above text is meant to say that DHCP is obsolete and should only be implemented if some piece of information has not been tranfered to a protocol other than DHCP. But all of this is still informational, so the SHOULD in 7.3 doesn't really mean anything. So maybe if 6434 was actually BCP and would say SHOULD with regard to DNS from both DHCP and RA then draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt would clearly be superfluous. From nobody Fri Mar 3 02:50:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94D08126CD8 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 02:50:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.32 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.32 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jisc.ac.uk header.b=TUsp0+wC; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=jisc365.onmicrosoft.com header.b=RQebg8SU Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SJRMg4CkVGFc for ; 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 10:50:00 -0000 SGksDQoNCj4gT24gMyBNYXIgMjAxNywgYXQgMTA6NDMsIFBoaWxpcCBIb21idXJnIDxwY2gtdjZv cHMtNkB1LTEucGhpY29oLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPj4gUkZDNjQzNCBzZWN0aW9uIDcuDQo+ PiANCj4+IFlvdSBuZWVkIHRvIGRvIGEgc2VyaW91cyByZWFsaXR5IGNoZWNrIGlmIHlvdSB0aGlu ayB3cml0aW5nIHlldCBhbm90aGVyDQo+PiBkb2N1bWVudCBzYXlpbmcgZXhhY3RseSB0aGUgc2Ft ZSB0aGluZyBvbmUgbW9yZSB0aW1lIGlzIGdvaW5nIHRvIGNoYW5nZQ0KPj4gdGhlIHdvcmxkLg0K PiANCj4gTWF5YmUgd2UgdGFrZSBvdXJzZWx2ZXMgYSBiaXQgbW9yZSBzZXJpb3VzbHkuIFJGQyA2 NDM0IGlzIHB1Ymxpc2hlZCBhcyANCj4gSW5mb3JtYXRpb25hbC4gIlRoaXMgZG9jdW1lbnQgaXMg bm90IGFuIEludGVybmV0IFN0YW5kYXJkcyBUcmFjaw0KPiBzcGVjaWZpY2F0aW9uOyBpdCBpcyBw dWJsaXNoZWQgZm9yIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uYWwgcHVycG9zZXMuIg0KPiANCj4gU28gYmFzaWNhbGx5 IHdlIGFyZSB0ZWxsaW5nIHRoZSByZWFkZXI6IHdlIGRvbid0IGNhcmUgaWYgeW91IGZvbGxvdyB0 aGlzIG9yDQo+IG5vdC4gRG8gd2hhdGV2ZXIgeW91IGxpa2UuIFRoaXMgbm90IGltcG9ydGFudCBl bm91Z2ggdG8gYmUgYSBzdGFuZGFyZCBvcg0KPiBhIEJDUC4NCj4gDQo+IE5vdyBhc3N1bWluZyB0 aGF0IHJlYWRlciB3YW50cyB0byBmb2xsb3cgdGhpcyBkb2N1bWVudCwgd2UgZ2l2ZSB0aGUgZm9s bG93aW5nDQo+IGFkdmljZToNCj4gDQo+IFNlY3Rpb24gNy4yLjENCj4gIklmIGEgaG9zdCBpbXBs ZW1lbnRhdGlvbiBzdXBwb3J0cyBhcHBsaWNhdGlvbnMgb3Igb3RoZXIgcHJvdG9jb2xzIHRoYXQN Cj4gInJlcXVpcmUgY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiB0aGF0IGlzIG9ubHkgYXZhaWxhYmxlIHZpYSBESENQ LCBob3N0cyBTSE9VTEQNCj4gImltcGxlbWVudCBESENQLg0KPiANCj4gT2theSwgd2hhdCBhYm91 dCBETlMgcmVzb2x2ZXJzPyBETlMgcmVzb2x2ZXJzIGFyZSBhbHNvIGF2YWlsYWJsZSBmcm9tIFJB Lg0KPiBTbyBvYnZpb3VzbHksIHRoZSBhYm92ZSB0ZXh0IGlzIG1lYW50IHRvIHNheSB0aGF0IERI Q1AgaXMgb2Jzb2xldGUgYW5kIA0KPiBzaG91bGQgb25seSBiZSBpbXBsZW1lbnRlZCBpZiBzb21l IHBpZWNlIG9mIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGhhcyBub3QgYmVlbg0KPiB0cmFuZmVyZWQgdG8gYSBwcm90 b2NvbCBvdGhlciB0aGFuIERIQ1AuDQo+IA0KPiBCdXQgYWxsIG9mIHRoaXMgaXMgc3RpbGwgaW5m b3JtYXRpb25hbCwgc28gdGhlIFNIT1VMRCBpbiA3LjMgZG9lc24ndA0KPiByZWFsbHkgbWVhbiBh bnl0aGluZy4NCj4gDQo+IFNvIG1heWJlIGlmIDY0MzQgd2FzIGFjdHVhbGx5IEJDUCBhbmQgd291 bGQgc2F5IFNIT1VMRCB3aXRoIHJlZ2FyZCB0bw0KPiBETlMgZnJvbSBib3RoIERIQ1AgYW5kIFJB IHRoZW4gZHJhZnQtZ29udC12Nm9wcy1ob3N0LWNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24tMDAudHh0IA0KPiB3b3Vs ZCBjbGVhcmx5IGJlIHN1cGVyZmx1b3VzLg0KDQpUaGVyZSBpcyBhbiBSRkM2NDM0IHVwZGF0ZSB1 bmRlcndheS4gSWYgeW91IGhhdmUgc3VnZ2VzdGlvbnMgZm9yIHRoYXQsIGZpcmUgYXdheS4NCg0K SSBkb27igJl0IGtub3cgYXQgdGhpcyBzdGFnZSBpZiB0aGVyZSB3aWxsIGJlIGEgcHJvcG9zYWwg dG8gdXBncmFkZSB0aGUgcmV2dmVkIHZlcnNpb24gdG8gQkNQLiAgVGhlcmUgd291bGQgYmUgYW4g YXJndW1lbnQgZm9yIGl0LCBnaXZlbiBpdCB3aWxsIGJlIHRoZSAzcmQgdmVyc2lvbiBvZiB0aGUg b3JpZ2luYWwgZG9jdW1lbnQsIHdpdGggMTArIHllYXJzIG9mIG9wZXJhdGlvbmFsIGV4cGVyaWVu Y2UgYmVoaW5kIGl0Lg0KDQpUaW0= From nobody Fri Mar 3 03:06:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 195E71296C5 for ; 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 11:06:51 -0000 PiBPbiAzIE1hciAyMDE3LCBhdCAwMToxMiwgQnJpYW4gRSBDYXJwZW50ZXIgPGJyaWFuLmUuY2Fy cGVudGVyQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+IA0KPiBPbiAwMi8wMy8yMDE3IDE4OjUwLCBDaHVj ayBBbmRlcnNvbiB3cm90ZToNCj4gLi4uDQo+PiBJUEFNIHZlbmRvcnMgZG9uJ3QgdGFsayB0byBy b3V0ZXJzIHRvIHVwZGF0ZSB0aGVpciBSQQ0KPj4gY29uZmlnLg0KPiANCj4gSSBleHBlY3Qgc29t ZSBvZiB0aGVtIGRvLCBidXQgaWYgeW91cnMgZG9lc24ndCwgYW5kIHlvdSB3YW50DQo+IEFuZHJv aWQgZGV2aWNlcyBvbiB5b3VyIG5ldHdvcmsgdG8gYmUgYWJsZSB0byBkbyBETlMgb3ZlciB2NiwN Cj4geW91IG5lZWQgdG8gZmlsbCB0aGF0IGdhcCBzb21laG93Lg0KDQpUaGlzIHJlbWluZHMgbWUg dGhhdCBhdCBJRVRGOTcgSSBtZW50aW9uZWQgdGhhdCBkcmFmdC1pZXRmLW5ldG1vZC1yb3V0aW5n LWNmZy0yNSBkaWQgbm90IGluY2x1ZGUgdGhlIFJETlNTIG9wdGlvbiAoYW5kIG90aGVyIG5vbiDi gJhjb3Jl4oCZIFJBIG9wdGlvbnMpIGluIGl0cyBpZXRmLWlwdjYtcm91dGVyLWFkdmVydGlzZW1l bnRzIHN1Ym1vZHVsZS4gSeKAmXZlIGp1c3QgbnVkZ2VkIHNvbWUgcG90ZW50aWFsIGNvLWF1dGhv cnMgb24gdGhpcywgYXQgbGVhc3QgdG8gZ2V0IGFuIGluaXRpYWwgLTAwIG91dCBiZWZvcmUgQ2hp Y2Fnby4NCg0KVGlt From nobody Fri Mar 3 03:33:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 610E912984F for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 03:33:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zukXuSFaA4i0 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 03:33:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FC3A12984A for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 03:33:49 -0800 (PST) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v23BXdOK046806 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:33:40 GMT (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local Message-ID: <58B95493.1000008@foobar.org> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 11:33:39 +0000 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.10 (Macintosh/20170123) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Lorenzo Colitti References: <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> <808326F1-2160-44C6-80B1-4990B8F46196@fugue.com> <13788799a5b642709fb6e5b30afb35b3@XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com> <58B898DC.40405@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 11:33:52 -0000 Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > Appreciate the irony, but the reality is that most of the problem is > solved by HNCP and DNCP. Said solution is much better than your > (presumably intentionally suboptimal) solution above, but it still > relies on being able to tell the host that something changed. please see what I wrote yesterday on this: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg25640.html Nick From nobody Fri Mar 3 05:37:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACC1E129891 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:37:52 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7dRZmU29rad3 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:37:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.145]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D5C0129890 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:37:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v23DbntC015059 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:37:49 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 355C920489E for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:37:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2B96920430C for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:37:49 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v23DbmPh007906 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:37:49 +0100 To: "v6ops@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:37:54 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 13:37:52 -0000 Hi v6opsers, I suppose this RFC has been developped here in v6ops, otherwise please excuse me. This RFC is an Independent Stream (not IETF Stream, no Standards Track, no BCP) RFC7849 "An IPv6 Profile for 3GPP Mobile Devices". This RFC has a number of problems; they are related to its recommendation of the INFORMATIONAL 64share RFC7278 at the loss of DHCPv6-PD. I propose to make this RFC7278 HISTORICAL, or find some other way to discard its contents with respect to 64share and DHCPv6 PD (Errata?). I also propose to inform officially 3GPP that this specific document should not be taken at face value, but just For Your Information, if you like it. Here are the detail comments: > ===== L_REC#1: For deployments that require that the same /64 prefix > be shared, I think this formulation is a reverse formulation. Some deployments need more than one /64, and an INFORMATIONAL solution is to share one /64 among many subnets. That does not mean the deployment requires 'sharing' the same /64. Deployments require multiple /64s. This should be either removed or corrected. (and I understand yes that the word 'share' may have been used by some as in 'WiFi is a shared link, as opposed to 3GPP being a ptp link', in which case - yes, some deployments require the use of 'shared links/WiFi' connected to a cellular link; beware the misinterpretations). > the cellular device should support [RFC7278] to enable sharing a /64 > prefix between the LAN and the WAN interfaces. That is a wrong recommendation. The right recommendation is the following: the cellular device SHOULD support DHCPv6-PD. And the text MUST NOT recommend sharing a /64 prefix. > The WAN interface is the one towards the Gateway GPRS Support Node > (GGSN) / Packet Data Network Gateway (PGW). > > Prefix Delegation (refer to L_REC#2) is the target solution for It's not a 'target', it is a 'now'. It comes before 64share. > distributing prefixes in the LAN side but, because the device may > attach to earlier 3GPP release networks, a means to share a /64 > prefix is also recommended [RFC7278]. No! That recommendation is wrong. That RFC is INFORMATIONAL and we should stop recommending it. I has huge problems, at least with respect to scalability. This backwards-compatible requirement does not make much sense here. We dont know what is a 'earlier 3GPP release network' with respect to 64share or DHCPv6-PD. Since 64share puts no requirement on the network, earlier 3GPP networks are precisely the same as newer 3GPP networks when it comes to 64share. > [RFC7278] must be invoked only if Prefix Delegation is not in use. ... _and_ if it works for the network being deployed. If it does not work, it MUST NOT be invoked. > L_REC#2: The cellular device must support Prefix Delegation > capabilities [RFC3633] and must support the Prefix Exclude Option for > DHCPv6-based Prefix Delegation as defined in [RFC6603]. Why is the 'prefix exclude' option a MUST? I may need to understand that, by further reading... I am asking because that puts additional burden on the smartphone implementer. I suggest to make 'prefix exclude' an option, not a must. Do not block the deployment of DHCPv6-PD because 'prefix exclude' is absent. > Particularly, it must behave as a Requesting Router. Yes, and it is a MUST, not a must. > Cellular networks are more and more perceived as an alternative to > fixed broadband networks for home IP- based services delivery; I agree. > especially with the advent of smartphones and 3GPP data dongles. _and_ M2M and IoT devices which are not 'dongles' (btw, 'dongles' are only the USB dongles, there are no other kinds of dongles). > There is a need for an efficient mechanism to assign larger prefixes > (other than /64s) to cellular hosts I fully agree. > so that each LAN segment can get its own /64 prefix _if_ that LAN is an Ethernet, yes it needs a /64. Often it is the case. > and multi-link subnet issues to be avoided. I agree, there is an RFC that must be cited there. > In case a prefix is delegated to a cellular host using DHCPv6, the > cellular device will be configured with two prefixes: > > (1) one for the 3GPP link allocated using the Stateless Address > Autoconfiguration (SLAAC) mechanism and > > (2) another one delegated for LANs acquired during the Prefix > Delegation operation. I dont know what you mean by 'configured', but this second prefix may just be in the rt table of the device (not necessarily on its interfaces). I dont understand why you say 'will be configured with two prefixes'. How about the default route? > Note that the 3GPP network architecture requires both the WAN and the > delegated prefix to be aggregatable so the subscriber can be > identified using a single prefix. Yes, it's good to avoid waste. > Without the Prefix Exclude Option, the delegating router (GGSN/PGW) > will have to ensure compliance with [RFC3633] (e.g., halving the > delegated prefix and assigning the WAN prefix out of the first half > and the prefix to be delegated to the terminal from the second > half). So 'prefix exclude' is not mandatory in order to have DHCPv6-PD working? Earlier it seemed mandatory. > Because Prefix Delegation capabilities may not be available in some > attached networks, L_REC#1 is strongly recommended to accommodate > early deployments. ===== This is wrong. We should _never_ recommend somehting we know it does not scale. 64share does not scale, there is a 'multi-link subnets' RFC and there is operational experience showing so. Alex From nobody Fri Mar 3 05:44:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 880691294D1 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:44:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id imqd-twjBqFk for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:44:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x232.google.com (mail-yw0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A3211293DC for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:44:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x232.google.com with SMTP id s15so57203774ywg.0 for ; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 05:44:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=PQD4tYI3Y3UwMJRFfG/XEclAFsKdKy+KOFzx0Dr1aoM=; b=kzyXdsNDPPikf54M/1O+rYbEJZ1GBwet3CIrTjR1k7lGOzcSrJPabSx4hsSl0x80Cn 463JK8xU+o6RHhrCblzxUGNgTtd+7S9YYJZTCtpnHa7SotF+G/ougK1GFldlydP6508M NgV90O2kEJ3PMO2Rr46OI6NYgy4Vu+93p+EYG4nWdMA6QfYAUK0WlrvVcfCmQijEL/ge 68l7MQ/23YpAsifV63v7bd8A3HP6LwvjrLTezHKrykuzRqlYMYyh1mTdyKW1dOBHlzgg UahTpiB3bxafDLQ+1HiPjGKMg1OZiPu1b/zkarERaZlNSTdlu2usfqKRl4EUp6ccyhkf AthQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=PQD4tYI3Y3UwMJRFfG/XEclAFsKdKy+KOFzx0Dr1aoM=; b=mi+p2SX/97NL8YeLi1si29V5cxVQ/jYDK+IawMGXyWzHQ5KgO6ruB0bjfSU0Nl+Uwp Al9Lk9pYzY5tYT55GXAszxRnBfNqpmKpJSqkwenaaC/Uy2XktK44TxujOh5urUWHvwvf UDnmPEnLosH8IZdKxyTfHObDe+soBtRaRHMoTOGwTgsLGNXMd+NI/jBenj6IXfCMTnwv R9/s0etdTExiWZUKUr6Zqtfukxt+YhRNqC4gGYDLBvWjUtlJc3AxwGVZBVfwJu86vZ0Q TR9JxXKrRCcGgfKI5VYukvy2Dgy4SbDt7Gvm/VsiK7b/nXZy2kATh50BMeD1nB+BKqaH dBlA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39kwV6kfHUKIdLTnUuts3W/ymvOP6/Xh1uocReOAzd0CRO69O3PC1mJ1Kb/3dvqsWlNzQzXLAQzjoCe32IAy X-Received: by 10.37.117.131 with SMTP id q125mr1619468ybc.184.1488548656822; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 05:44:16 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.207.4 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:43:56 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Erik Kline Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 22:43:56 +0900 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="001a114bb6c8f640eb0549d3bdce" Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 13:44:19 -0000 --001a114bb6c8f640eb0549d3bdce Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114bb6c8ec4c2c0549d3bdb5 --001a114bb6c8ec4c2c0549d3bdb5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > > Because Prefix Delegation capabilities may not be available in some >> attached networks, L_REC#1 is strongly recommended to accommodate >> early deployments. ===== >> > > This is wrong. We should _never_ recommend somehting we know it does > not scale. 64share does not scale, there is a 'multi-link subnets' RFC > and there is operational experience showing so. > False. We wrote IPv6 tethering in Android N (MR1), it uses 64share, and it pretty much works just fine. It is tricky if you want to further delegate from there, but works A-OK for its stated intended purpose. --001a114bb6c8ec4c2c0549d3bdb5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Because Prefix Delegation capabilities may not be available in some
attached networks, L_REC#1 is strongly recommended to accommodate
early deployments. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

This is wrong.=C2=A0 We should _never_ recommend somehting we know it does<= br> not scale.=C2=A0 64share does not scale, there is a 'multi-link subnets= ' RFC
and there is operational experience showing so.

False.

We wrote IPv6 tethering in Android= N (MR1), it uses 64share, and it pretty much works just fine.

It is tricky if you want to further delegate from there, b= ut works A-OK for its stated intended purpose.
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from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ACA581294F5 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:52:31 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wEn3kBak4bz9 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:52:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 79DEE12953E for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:52:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #127) id m1cjndD-0000GYC; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:52:27 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> <163ebf4b-f3bc-b52c-91c7-6c90ce14d93a@si6networks.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DAD125D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <20170302212007.5D7C865D2D53@rock.dv.isc.org> <247AA730-89E0-48B5-8247-CF6F26E1BC3B@employees.org> <27D2F9E5-6AE8-43A5-8C1B-7B138602AD62@jisc.ac.uk> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:49:42 +0000 ." <27D2F9E5-6AE8-43A5-8C1B-7B138602AD62@jisc.ac.uk> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 14:52:26 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 13:52:31 -0000 > There is an RFC6434 update underway. If you have suggestions for > that, fire away. > > I dont know at this stage if there will be a proposal to upgrade > the revved version to BCP. There would be an argument for it, > given it will be the 3rd version of the original document, with > 10+ years of operational experience behind it. In order of preference 1) Make it a BCP. 2) Add text similar to: "If a host contains a (stub) DNS resolver then the host should try to obtain a list of DNS resolvers from RAs and, if the O flags is set in an RA, using a DHCPv6 (information) request." 3) Hosts that have enough resources to be able to support both RA and DHCPv6 SHOULD try to configure addresses using RA and DHCPv6 IA_NA (if the M flag is set). (I think a SHOULD should be able to satisfy Lorenzo's use case. Because you are allowed to violate a SHOULD if there are technical reasons to do so, we can even make that explicit) From nobody Fri Mar 3 05:53:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A295012946F for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:53:57 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.353 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.353 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8nbUGAxxoQ0o for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:53:56 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D113112945A for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 05:53:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v23Drqrm009431; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:53:52 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 5BB44207E05; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:53:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E3BB2049D5; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:53:52 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v23Drqur024871; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:53:52 +0100 To: Erik Kline References: From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <61403895-2de4-f769-2a8c-486d14a297f4@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:53:57 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 13:53:57 -0000 Le 03/03/2017 à 14:43, Erik Kline a écrit : > > Because Prefix Delegation capabilities may not be available in some > attached networks, L_REC#1 is strongly recommended to accommodate > early deployments. ===== > > > This is wrong. We should _never_ recommend somehting we know it does > not scale. 64share does not scale, there is a 'multi-link subnets' > RFC and there is operational experience showing so. > > > False. > > We wrote IPv6 tethering in Android N (MR1), it uses 64share, and it > pretty much works just fine. Works fine but does is scale? > It is tricky if you want to further delegate from there, That 'tricky' scares me, really. > but works A-OK for its stated intended purpose. If its intended purposes are that 'deployments require 64 sharing', as RFC7849 puts it, please let me say I have strong doubts. If the intended purpose is "make one or two WiFi hotspots on a smartphone" - then say so everywhere. Do not generalise, or falsely induce people into thinking 64share can be used to anything more than just that. Do not put this 64share into 3GPP specs. Do not put this 64share into IETF documents having '3GPP' in their titles. It's as if I put my preferred 'Hello World' software in 3GPP specs. True, it runs on a smartphone, but what more could 3GPP care about it. 3GPP does much more about extendign networks at the edges than just one or two wifi hotspots on a smartphone. 64share does not scale to that. But let me ask: what is the intended purpose of 64share from your point of view? Alex From nobody Fri Mar 3 08:09:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A208B1294F1 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:09:51 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cs7etcvuBquM for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:09:50 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com (mail-wm0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 89B121294E1 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:09:49 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id n11so19037139wma.0 for ; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 08:09:49 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=ggptKC8t1ge+AaRrbzzYFJXVjWYaMj1cI4DYHkkZfmQ=; b=gfQAfcXwWaOWbJmkRCLV01V+QfriV33ZtdrujGwyK+DjiULzYJVMZdac6CZjWD5Biu 3NNkKBtgBxXmQGUSqLp/NKUZFk2pM2kH293a8EsVE/qiR4vTtQ0xa1eBTLJK81jwh1NH xRFH+hbb9fUtF4zaLxzMdgSsqSkoORvIIKYrl3pfrdXoqmwUQFQHXP5sZ6ycfAe3ivT7 vVh7PlwXHaDJzBYM5PcwaImsSKs95m9PJ/cMuIwy9qYlQpCGP8inY0ZlB5a/Q5qzRATQ IgJQ7z1L9u+awNLkoCaWtmiaBPuGnylEYYYNYt0FepuBLtiCNqoX5Nwpg+kem5NtxCFt syuQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ggptKC8t1ge+AaRrbzzYFJXVjWYaMj1cI4DYHkkZfmQ=; b=XmF7RE5VlzttnHAdg+M8GaOXtai4/OccxFb7tm7PkQfzbZ9x9KCGFjWEb7wbn+za/1 SNN436tog8nCEBfa33f8FofOstbgGozS8Yz8djZBNOQQ9k4eGNKopxKXRvhzJ8GpzgNX +Ope38lvUCCqUK2+RkMM43bml9ZKgMgZVNWFXJcJRgGm0m8a6F0BMO3RMuO3mOqwMYN8 IWI7HXFGabYkRsBJHgXTZpdB+G7fsbCV6rsqSRDpiuzEGBsynV2eiYhUDWv7rB/R4j5W V+4Ozaipyn0XGw8V1TSGrds2Wg3+5cq78/ssuuSq9l+QPO9ZJasVI9ybkU274XUbpQ9b tBgg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39ltZZ9Ib40ecEIo84cB6aJaJ/JnRQ1qE780TaDw7Z7FKPGk9SgGZ/jE5UM3iFjxJP16MOwLppPjvY6WFQ== X-Received: by 10.28.224.69 with SMTP id x66mr3720791wmg.21.1488557388031; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 08:09:48 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <61403895-2de4-f769-2a8c-486d14a297f4@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <61403895-2de4-f769-2a8c-486d14a297f4@gmail.com> From: Ca By Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 16:09:36 +0000 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu , Erik Kline Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114b0a6457bcaa0549d5c682 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 16:09:51 -0000 --001a114b0a6457bcaa0549d5c682 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 5:54 AM Alexandre Petrescu < alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > > > Le 03/03/2017 =C3=A0 14:43, Erik Kline a =C3=A9crit : > > > > Because Prefix Delegation capabilities may not be available in some > > attached networks, L_REC#1 is strongly recommended to accommodate > > early deployments. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > > > > > > This is wrong. We should _never_ recommend somehting we know it does > > not scale. 64share does not scale, there is a 'multi-link subnets' > > RFC and there is operational experience showing so. > > > > > > False. > > > > We wrote IPv6 tethering in Android N (MR1), it uses 64share, and it > > pretty much works just fine. > > Works fine but does is scale? Yes, millions of users (apple and android) on many networks use what is described in 64share. 64share describes 100% of the cases where users get ipv6 addresses via 3gpp phone tether afaik. Spare me the discussion about how the dongle .... I am unaware of any network or mainstream smartphone that supports dhcp-pd. I am sure you can rig something up, but i am simply referring to your comment of scale in the real world for todays use cases. This is ietf, running code matters. Deployments matter even more. Bike shed colors do not matter, bike shed colors for flying bike to bike communication is an interesting topic, but I suggest you avoid calling the current bike shed a failure and keeping its deployment reality a dirty secret. We tried that with nat44, it did not turn out well. CB > > > It is tricky if you want to further delegate from there, > > That 'tricky' scares me, really. > > > but works A-OK for its stated intended purpose. > > If its intended purposes are that 'deployments require 64 sharing', as > RFC7849 puts it, please let me say I have strong doubts. > > If the intended purpose is "make one or two WiFi hotspots on a > smartphone" - then say so everywhere. Do not generalise, or falsely > induce people into thinking 64share can be used to anything more than > just that. > > Do not put this 64share into 3GPP specs. Do not put this 64share into > IETF documents having '3GPP' in their titles. > > It's as if I put my preferred 'Hello World' software in 3GPP specs. > True, it runs on a smartphone, but what more could 3GPP care about it. > > 3GPP does much more about extendign networks at the edges than just one > or two wifi hotspots on a smartphone. 64share does not scale to that. > > But let me ask: what is the intended purpose of 64share from your point > of view? > > Alex > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --001a114b0a6457bcaa0549d5c682 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 5:54 AM Ale= xandre Petrescu <alexand= re.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

Le 03/03/2017 =C3=A0 14:43, Erik Kline a =C3=A9crit :
>
> Because Prefix Delegation capabilities may not be available in some > attached networks, L_REC#1 is strongly recommended to accommodate
> early deployments. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>
>
> This is wrong.=C2=A0 We should _never_ recommend somehting we know it = does
> not scale.=C2=A0 64share does not scale, there is a 'multi-link su= bnets'
> RFC and there is operational experience showing so.
>
>
> False.
>
> We wrote IPv6 tethering in Android N (MR1), it uses 64share, and it > pretty much works just fine.

Works fine but does is scale?

Yes, millions= of users (apple and android) on many networks use what is described in 64s= hare. =C2=A064share describes 100% of the cases where users get ipv6 addres= ses via 3gpp phone tether afaik. Spare me the discussion about how the dong= le ....

I am unaware of any network or mainstream = smartphone that supports dhcp-pd.=C2=A0 I am sure you can rig something up,= but i am simply referring to your comment of scale in the real world for t= odays use cases.=C2=A0

This is ietf, running code = matters. Deployments matter even more.=C2=A0

Bike = shed colors do not matter, bike shed colors for flying bike to bike communi= cation is an interesting topic, but I suggest you avoid calling the current= bike shed a failure and keeping its deployment reality a dirty secret. We = tried that with nat44, it did not turn out well.=C2=A0

=
CB


<= br class=3D"gmail_msg">
> It is tricky if you want to further delegate from there,

That 'tricky' scares me, really.

> but works A-OK for its stated intended purpose.

If its intended purposes are that 'deployments require 64 sharing',= as
RFC7849 puts it, please let me say I have strong doubts.

If the intended purpose is "make one or two WiFi hotspots on a
smartphone" - then say so everywhere.=C2=A0 Do not generalise, or fals= ely
induce people into thinking 64share can be used to anything more than
just that.

Do not put this 64share into 3GPP specs.=C2=A0 Do not put this 64share into=
IETF documents having '3GPP' in their titles.

It's as if I put my preferred 'Hello World' software in 3GPP sp= ecs.
True, it runs on a smartphone, but what more could 3GPP care about it.

3GPP does much more about extendign networks at the edges than just one
or two wifi hotspots on a smartphone.=C2=A0 64share does not scale to that.=

But let me ask: what is the intended purpose of 64share from your point
of view?

Alex

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6o= ps@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo= /v6ops
--001a114b0a6457bcaa0549d5c682-- From nobody Fri Mar 3 08:53:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F02E1298C6 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:53:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dzcP5DJcWfuC for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:53:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:baa::21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08F6E1294BC for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 08:53:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from [192.168.1.55] (lan.furness.net [84.9.59.220]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 04F081BC37 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 16:53:17 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: <38FD32ED-C942-40AA-8FC7-365A244AB7C9@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 16:53:15 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <013B7A75-E5F6-4F47-9D92-33114F1781F8@cisco.com> <38FD32ED-C942-40AA-8FC7-365A244AB7C9@gmail.com> To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 16:53:26 -0000 Fred Baker wrote: > Simon, take a look in rtgwg. There is some work happening for = source/destination routing in OSPF, IS-IS, BGP, and I believe Babel, and = a problem statement being considered for adoption in rtgwg as we speak. = The BGP prototype is operational in CERNET2, I'm told. >=20 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-baker-ipv6-isis-dst-src-routing > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-bowbakova-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multi= homing > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-ospf-ospfv3-lsa-extend > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtgwg-dst-src-routing > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-rtgwg-multihomed-prefix-lfa > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-ospf-multi-homing-ipv6 > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-xu-src-dst-bgp I think you've missed the issue I'm looking to address - on a quick = peruse, it looks like only the second of those links addresses source = address selection by the host/service. While these various routing = protocol extensions may well be important in the larger networks, I = believe the vast majority of small to medium business have no need of = those - the big problem is not how to route the packets for a given = source address(prefix), but how to select the source address(prefix) in = the first place. Taking my own situation at work. I have a single router - it's actually = a Debian 7 (Wheezy) virtual machine and already doing source based = routing for IPv4 traffic across two egress routes. Extending that to = IPv6 is relatively easy - "simply" a matter of configuring the routing = rules in much the same way as is currently done for IPv4. This is echoed at some of our customer sites where they have a "small = business" grade router (typically Draytek) supporting multiple WAN = interfaces. The Draytek routers have policy based routing - "traffic = matching this set of criteria should be routed via that WAN interface". Where there are multiple routers (eg separate routers provided by each = ISP), then my *assumption* would be that the IPv6 stack would forward = packets to the router which advertised the prefix containing the IP = address the host/service has chosen to use for the outbound connection. = In general we would frown upon this setup since it doesn't work well in = the IPv4 world - in the general case it means manual configuration on = nodes to select the egress router and is inflexible. From nobody Fri Mar 3 09:10:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 96771129521 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 09:10:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0p-9Ix_1Ekh0 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 09:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.145]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 753601294F8 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 09:10:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v23HAdTa001944; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:10:39 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 9E3DE20D652; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:10:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8E6DB20D5B3; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:10:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v23HAd9U028027; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:10:39 +0100 To: Ca By , Erik Kline References: <61403895-2de4-f769-2a8c-486d14a297f4@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <66d7e60b-32ec-744f-384e-ef66cc01bf8b@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:10:44 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 17:10:45 -0000 Le 03/03/2017 à 17:09, Ca By a écrit : > > On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 5:54 AM Alexandre Petrescu > > > wrote: > > > > Le 03/03/2017 à 14:43, Erik Kline a écrit : >> >> Because Prefix Delegation capabilities may not be available in >> some attached networks, L_REC#1 is strongly recommended to >> accommodate early deployments. ===== >> >> >> This is wrong. We should _never_ recommend somehting we know it >> does not scale. 64share does not scale, there is a 'multi-link >> subnets' RFC and there is operational experience showing so. >> >> >> False. >> >> We wrote IPv6 tethering in Android N (MR1), it uses 64share, and >> it pretty much works just fine. > > Works fine but does is scale? > > > Yes, millions of users Well, I did not ask about scaling in terms of how many times can you copy the same software on how many devices, or how many human users can buy smartphones from same operator. I agree 64share (like most other sw) can scale to millions of devices sold to millions of users as part of some subscription plans. I asked about scaling in terms of IP networking. I dont want _your_ network to grow, I want the end user's network to grow. And your network must not prevent the end user's network from growing. 64share prevents your end users' networks from growing. So, while millions of users is good, I look more at like billions of devices connected to these millions of users. > (apple and android) on many networks use what is described in > 64share. It is good that apple and android implement that software. But that alone does not make it more recommendable than a plethora of other software, starting from the simplest 'Hello World'. > 64share describes 100% of the cases where users get ipv6 addresses > via 3gpp phone tether afaik. Yes, 64share RFC describes use-cases where it's relevant. But I guess, as you write below about bicycles, 64share does not care about, well, bicycles. And the bicycles are different than smartphones. As such, I dont understand why pushing 64share into 3GPP, when 3GPP cares not only about smartphones, but also about IoTs like bicycles. As such, I dont understand why making 64share into a recommendation to 3GPP. More refinement should be there. > Spare me the discussion about how the dongle .... Well - you dont care about dongles, I do. I will spare you. But you will have to change the way you think of your end users. They wont spare you about their dongles, M2M devices and other IoTs. > I am unaware of any network or mainstream smartphone that supports > dhcp-pd. Dont you think that the question of whether or not DHCP-PD runs ok on smartphone is irrelevant? DHCP-PD is open source software, can compile anywhere. Assume DHCPv6-PD app runs ok on smartphone. And that does not make the operator respond and deliver prefixes. They dont care about a smartphone running or not the DHCPv6-PD. They care about what 3GPP asks. And 3GPP asks what this RFC says. And this RFC says no need of DHCP because do 64share. That's not normal. > I am sure you can rig something up, but i am simply referring to your > comment of scale in the real world for todays use cases. Ah, let me clarify my comment of scale. I am concerned with scaling beyond 2 subnets: up to 45 subnets in 15 cars, and 10 subnets in 5 Road-Side Units, in a city center area. And that's the lowest number I could go with. 64share cant scale to that. Do you agree? This may be 'rigging up' for you, but for me it is more serious. > This is ietf, running code matters. Deployments matter even more. I agree. But in this case it seems what you believe your smartphone deployment should prime over what non-smartphone (e.g. bicycle) deployments need. > Bike shed colors do not matter, bike shed colors for flying bike to > bike communication is an interesting topic, I agree with you that communicating bicycles may sound a far-fetched scenario to some, but I also agree with hundreds of people working precisely on the topic of communicating bicycles. It saves lives. The fact that you discard that as some 'flying' objects, presumably assuming they are only on the drawing board, is not very kind. Please stop that. Please do not be ignorant with topics that are important to others. Moreover, I invite you to come and see the next demo events. > but I suggest you avoid calling the current bike shed a failure and > keeping its deployment reality a dirty secret. I do not understand what you mean, but I want to let you know that I did work on connecting a Parking (including bike shed) to the IPv6 Internet. I dont understand what you mean by 'keeping its deployment reality a dirty secret'. The deployments I work often get publicized in public media and events. > We tried that with nat44, it did not turn out well. We agree on NAT is evil, but I dont understand: do you threaten with it? I dont understand that here. If we discuss threats, here is my reply: It's now the 64share argument killing DHCP-PD at 3GPP that MAY make me make a second deployment with NAT66. Were 64share to be less all-encompassing in its claims, DHCPv6-PD may get in a stronger recommendation document to RFC, then to 3GPP and then to operators. Alex > > CB > > > > >> It is tricky if you want to further delegate from there, > > That 'tricky' scares me, really. > >> but works A-OK for its stated intended purpose. > > If its intended purposes are that 'deployments require 64 sharing', > as RFC7849 puts it, please let me say I have strong doubts. > > If the intended purpose is "make one or two WiFi hotspots on a > smartphone" - then say so everywhere. Do not generalise, or falsely > induce people into thinking 64share can be used to anything more than > just that. > > Do not put this 64share into 3GPP specs. Do not put this 64share > into IETF documents having '3GPP' in their titles. > > It's as if I put my preferred 'Hello World' software in 3GPP specs. > True, it runs on a smartphone, but what more could 3GPP care about > it. > > 3GPP does much more about extendign networks at the edges than just > one or two wifi hotspots on a smartphone. 64share does not scale to > that. > > But let me ask: what is the intended purpose of 64share from your > point of view? > > Alex > > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Fri Mar 3 09:28:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0DCF129570 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 09:28:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AB3ogwrDOuzm for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 09:27:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr0-x22e.google.com (mail-wr0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF83912952F for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 09:27:58 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id u108so78251472wrb.3 for ; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 09:27:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bUjDDRJ9HA6I0bYds9hA7+ilhi0DK5a9T98RgU0vjls=; b=YC3VfUaf9Kd/p42I8axQkATayHIrEANem8c8DMKoUeAgicXc+CV8JYduRoOoX8T8g8 dmdsrhC5gZYBo6c7PCl9laXIihjw0QdRva3ecuagghj4zhy2oTfnMoFadZ2ehvZLtzwX t0h0DWIYpJGUZY9EOaMHQUQtx3T4bhzvpLwiokipDHx+caGFQA+dSGQqkZRMk6xgh6Iw olSYw6MOOMiRA+48hgk4YZ46Fbbqrt2G5xQxKcnf9CIoNBnhreuFxzOe0hb9Lqd1zSVU +tTebt6cZvSAXzAPVBtDEdH/xpX2cxXILK5Y2NapjVDsQUy5KPEMMczYzksA4aUu+EVe WOzg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bUjDDRJ9HA6I0bYds9hA7+ilhi0DK5a9T98RgU0vjls=; b=MHJWDg1YNpVSBQ5FHG46mfQnPau5bSCg7FmmA0eifwymInUbk6g1UkMG98bXPVhcgQ WHwhGhO9/jRHQ6C8/C5CxnxwWvPFMNP0DHO2LTm6+Wl8dUTUXKj/utu+khmKgE8qM7HA Ml3deYVvGvwsq5+MIgMIqgROU0mOFmy1OZuFklx1fknJyAXhWxkBJI+pN4zXhzuIOy7p 8f1NZW5VY+nMEoKumgsCHcyxsww5oCxc7MiwWKA23Cly0DAiIoqPpK8oBq0G8QBdym8O jMK4IWkoQxIYXt/uhGpileJ98rUmwpFAbvFXwuGP7L3FfQ//yU49z7W5VVqxw7a7+25d OYGg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39kxaYjQkiL0SrnSubbUy7KkzBANOSrV9YZEt8v8FgrNFR5iU1oZZ+RiPEtkOcI+XdPKnOBr09+xkFiBzQ== X-Received: by 10.223.128.5 with SMTP id 5mr3566797wrk.163.1488562077351; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 09:27:57 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <61403895-2de4-f769-2a8c-486d14a297f4@gmail.com> <66d7e60b-32ec-744f-384e-ef66cc01bf8b@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <66d7e60b-32ec-744f-384e-ef66cc01bf8b@gmail.com> From: Ca By Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 17:27:46 +0000 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu , Erik Kline Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c05cf60d8c4d10549d6dda0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 17:28:01 -0000 --94eb2c05cf60d8c4d10549d6dda0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 9:10 AM Alexandre Petrescu < alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > Le 03/03/2017 =C3=A0 17:09, Ca By a =C3=A9crit : > > > > On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 5:54 AM Alexandre Petrescu > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Le 03/03/2017 =C3=A0 14:43, Erik Kline a =C3=A9crit : > >> > >> Because Prefix Delegation capabilities may not be available in > >> some attached networks, L_REC#1 is strongly recommended to > >> accommodate early deployments. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D > >> > >> > >> This is wrong. We should _never_ recommend somehting we know it > >> does not scale. 64share does not scale, there is a 'multi-link > >> subnets' RFC and there is operational experience showing so. > >> > >> > >> False. > >> > >> We wrote IPv6 tethering in Android N (MR1), it uses 64share, and > >> it pretty much works just fine. > > > > Works fine but does is scale? > > > > > > Yes, millions of users > > Well, I did not ask about scaling in terms of how many times can you > copy the same software on how many devices, or how many human users can > buy smartphones from same operator. I agree 64share (like most other > sw) can scale to millions of devices sold to millions of users as part > of some subscription plans. > > I asked about scaling in terms of IP networking. > > I dont want _your_ network to grow, I want the end user's network to > grow. And your network must not prevent the end user's network from > growing. > > 64share prevents your end users' networks from growing. > > So, while millions of users is good, I look more at like billions of > devices connected to these millions of users. > > > (apple and android) on many networks use what is described in > > 64share. > > It is good that apple and android implement that software. > > But that alone does not make it more recommendable than a plethora of > other software, starting from the simplest 'Hello World'. > > > 64share describes 100% of the cases where users get ipv6 addresses > > via 3gpp phone tether afaik. > > Yes, 64share RFC describes use-cases where it's relevant. > > But I guess, as you write below about bicycles, 64share does not > care about, well, bicycles. > > And the bicycles are different than smartphones. > > As such, I dont understand why pushing 64share into 3GPP, when 3GPP > cares not only about smartphones, but also about IoTs like bicycles. > > As such, I dont understand why making 64share into a recommendation to > 3GPP. > > More refinement should be there. > > > Spare me the discussion about how the dongle .... > > Well - you dont care about dongles, I do. > > I will spare you. > > But you will have to change the way you think of your end users. They > wont spare you about their dongles, M2M devices and other IoTs. > > > I am unaware of any network or mainstream smartphone that supports > > dhcp-pd. > > Dont you think that the question of whether or not DHCP-PD runs ok on > smartphone is irrelevant? DHCP-PD is open source software, can compile > anywhere. > > Assume DHCPv6-PD app runs ok on smartphone. > > And that does not make the operator respond and deliver prefixes. They > dont care about a smartphone running or not the DHCPv6-PD. They care > about what 3GPP asks. And 3GPP asks what this RFC says. And this RFC > says no need of DHCP because do 64share. That's not normal. > > > I am sure you can rig something up, but i am simply referring to your > > comment of scale in the real world for todays use cases. > > Ah, let me clarify my comment of scale. > > I am concerned with scaling beyond 2 subnets: up to 45 subnets in 15 > cars, and 10 subnets in 5 Road-Side Units, in a city center area. And > that's the lowest number I could go with. > > 64share cant scale to that. Do you agree? > > This may be 'rigging up' for you, but for me it is more serious. > > > This is ietf, running code matters. Deployments matter even more. > > I agree. > > But in this case it seems what you believe your smartphone deployment > should prime over what non-smartphone (e.g. bicycle) deployments need. > > > Bike shed colors do not matter, bike shed colors for flying bike to > > bike communication is an interesting topic, > > I agree with you that communicating bicycles may sound a far-fetched > scenario to some, but I also agree with hundreds of people working > precisely on the topic of communicating bicycles. It saves lives. > > The fact that you discard that as some 'flying' objects, presumably > assuming they are only on the drawing board, is not very kind. Please > stop that. > > Please do not be ignorant with topics that are important to others. > > Moreover, I invite you to come and see the next demo events. > > > but I suggest you avoid calling the current bike shed a failure and > > keeping its deployment reality a dirty secret. > > I do not understand what you mean, but I want to let you know that I did > work on connecting a Parking (including bike shed) to the IPv6 Internet. > > I dont understand what you mean by 'keeping its deployment reality a > dirty secret'. The deployments I work often get publicized in public > media and events. > > > We tried that with nat44, it did not turn out well. > > We agree on NAT is evil, but I dont understand: do you threaten with it? > I dont understand that here. > > If we discuss threats, here is my reply: > > It's now the 64share argument killing DHCP-PD at 3GPP that MAY make me > make a second deployment with NAT66. > > Were 64share to be less all-encompassing in its claims, DHCPv6-PD may > get in a stronger recommendation document to RFC, then to 3GPP and then > to operators. > > Alex > > > > > CB > > > > > > > > > >> It is tricky if you want to further delegate from there, > > > > That 'tricky' scares me, really. > > > >> but works A-OK for its stated intended purpose. > > > > If its intended purposes are that 'deployments require 64 sharing', > > as RFC7849 puts it, please let me say I have strong doubts. > > > > If the intended purpose is "make one or two WiFi hotspots on a > > smartphone" - then say so everywhere. Do not generalise, or falsely > > induce people into thinking 64share can be used to anything more than > > just that. > > > > Do not put this 64share into 3GPP specs. Do not put this 64share > > into IETF documents having '3GPP' in their titles. > > > > It's as if I put my preferred 'Hello World' software in 3GPP specs. > > True, it runs on a smartphone, but what more could 3GPP care about > > it. > > > > 3GPP does much more about extendign networks at the edges than just > > one or two wifi hotspots on a smartphone. 64share does not scale to > > that. > > > > But let me ask: what is the intended purpose of 64share from your > > point of view? > > > > Alex > > Alex -- i suggests you re-read 64share to discover its intended purpose. For your convenience, i provide this quote from it. "DHCPv6 is the best way to delegate a prefix to a LAN link. The methods described in this document SHOULD only be applied when deploying DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation is not achievable in the 3GPP network and the UE. " So telling anyone about 64share is by association telling them dhcp-pd is best. Dhcp-pd will be deployed as soon as the business case justifies it, 64share is a single LAN stop gap. Your issue is simply one of supply and demand. No ietf or 3gpp document is lacking specification for making dhcp-pd happen. > > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > --94eb2c05cf60d8c4d10549d6dda0 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 9:10 AM Ale= xandre Petrescu <alexand= re.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 5:54 AM Alexandre Petrescu
> <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com <mailto:= alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com>>
>=C2=A0 wrote:
>
>
>
> Le 03/03/2017 =C3=A0 14:43, Erik Kline a =C3=A9crit :
>>
>> Because Prefix Delegation capabilities may not be available in
>> some attached networks, L_REC#1 is strongly recommended to
>> accommodate early deployments. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
>>
>>
>> This is wrong.=C2=A0 We should _never_ recommend somehting we know= it
>> does not scale.=C2=A0 64share does not scale, there is a 'mult= i-link
>> subnets' RFC and there is operational experience showing so. >>
>>
>> False.
>>
>> We wrote IPv6 tethering in Android N (MR1), it uses 64share, and >> it pretty much works just fine.
>
> Works fine but does is scale?
>
>
> Yes, millions of users

Well, I did not ask about scaling in terms of how many times can you
copy the same software on how many devices, or how many human users can
buy smartphones from same operator.=C2=A0 I agree 64share (like most other<= br class=3D"gmail_msg"> sw) can scale to millions of devices sold to millions of users as part
of some subscription plans.

I asked about scaling in terms of IP networking.

I dont want _your_ network to grow, I want the end user's network to grow.=C2=A0 And your network must not prevent the end user's network fr= om
growing.

64share prevents your end users' networks from growing.

So, while millions of users is good, I look more at like billions of
devices connected to these millions of users.

> (apple and android) on many networks use what is described in
> 64share.

It is good that apple and android implement that software.

But that alone does not make it more recommendable than a plethora of
other software, starting from the simplest 'Hello World'.

> 64share describes 100% of the cases where users get ipv6 addresses
> via 3gpp phone tether afaik.

Yes, 64share RFC describes use-cases where it's relevant.

But I guess, as you write below about bicycles, 64share does not
care about, well, bicycles.

And the bicycles are different than smartphones.

As such, I dont understand why pushing 64share into 3GPP, when 3GPP
cares not only about smartphones, but also about IoTs like bicycles.

As such, I dont understand why making 64share into a recommendation to 3GPP= .

More refinement should be there.

> Spare me the discussion about how the dongle ....

Well - you dont care about dongles, I do.

I will spare you.

But you will have to change the way you think of your end users.=C2=A0 They=
wont spare you about their dongles, M2M devices and other IoTs.

> I am unaware of any network or mainstream smartphone that supports
> dhcp-pd.

Dont you think that the question of whether or not DHCP-PD runs ok on
smartphone is irrelevant?=C2=A0 DHCP-PD is open source software, can compil= e
anywhere.

Assume DHCPv6-PD app runs ok on smartphone.

And that does not make the operator respond and deliver prefixes.=C2=A0 The= y
dont care about a smartphone running or not the DHCPv6-PD.=C2=A0 They care<= br class=3D"gmail_msg"> about what 3GPP asks.=C2=A0 And 3GPP asks what this RFC says.=C2=A0 And thi= s RFC
says no need of DHCP because do 64share.=C2=A0 That's not normal.

> I am sure you can rig something up, but i am simply referring to your<= br class=3D"gmail_msg"> > comment of scale in the real world for todays use cases.

Ah, let me clarify my comment of scale.

I am concerned with scaling beyond 2 subnets: up to 45 subnets in 15
cars, and 10 subnets in 5 Road-Side Units, in a city center area.=C2=A0 And=
that's the lowest number I could go with.

64share cant scale to that.=C2=A0 Do you agree?

This may be 'rigging up' for you, but for me it is more serious.
> This is ietf, running code matters. Deployments matter even more.

I agree.

But in this case it seems what you believe your smartphone deployment
should prime over what non-smartphone (e.g. bicycle) deployments need.

> Bike shed colors do not matter, bike shed colors for flying bike to > bike communication is an interesting topic,

I agree with you that communicating bicycles may sound a far-fetched
scenario to some, but I also agree with hundreds of people working
precisely on the topic of communicating bicycles.=C2=A0 It saves lives.

The fact that you discard that as some 'flying' objects, presumably=
assuming they are only on the drawing board, is not very kind.=C2=A0 Please=
stop that.

Please do not be ignorant with topics that are important to others.

Moreover, I invite you to come and see the next demo events.

> but I suggest you avoid calling the current bike shed a failure and > keeping its deployment reality a dirty secret.

I do not understand what you mean, but I want to let you know that I did work on connecting a Parking (including bike shed) to the IPv6 Internet.
I dont understand what you mean by 'keeping its deployment reality a dirty secret'.=C2=A0 The deployments I work often get publicized in pub= lic
media and events.

> We tried that with nat44, it did not turn out well.

We agree on NAT is evil, but I dont understand: do you threaten with it? I dont understand that here.

If we discuss threats, here is my reply:

It's now the 64share argument killing DHCP-PD at 3GPP that MAY make me<= br class=3D"gmail_msg"> make a second deployment with NAT66.

Were 64share to be less all-encompassing in its claims, DHCPv6-PD may
get in a stronger recommendation document to RFC, then to 3GPP and then
to operators.

Alex

>
> CB
>
>
>
>
>> It is tricky if you want to further delegate from there,
>
> That 'tricky' scares me, really.
>
>> but works A-OK for its stated intended purpose.
>
> If its intended purposes are that 'deployments require 64 sharing&= #39;,
> as RFC7849 puts it, please let me say I have strong doubts.
>
> If the intended purpose is "make one or two WiFi hotspots on a > smartphone" - then say so everywhere.=C2=A0 Do not generalise, or= falsely
> induce people into thinking 64share can be used to anything more than<= br class=3D"gmail_msg"> > just that.
>
> Do not put this 64share into 3GPP specs.=C2=A0 Do not put this 64share=
> into IETF documents having '3GPP' in their titles.
>
> It's as if I put my preferred 'Hello World' software in 3G= PP specs.
> True, it runs on a smartphone, but what more could 3GPP care about
> it.
>
> 3GPP does much more about extendign networks at the edges than just > one or two wifi hotspots on a smartphone.=C2=A0 64share does not scale= to
>=C2=A0 that.
>
> But let me ask: what is the intended purpose of 64share from your
> point of view?
>
> Alex
>

Alex -- i suggests you re-read 64share= to discover its intended purpose.=C2=A0

For your = convenience, i provide this quote from it.=C2=A0

&= quot;DHCPv6 is the best way to delegat= e a prefix to a LAN link. The
 =
  methods described in this document SHOULD only be applied when
   deploying DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation is not achievable in the 3GPP
   network and the UE.
"

So telling= anyone about 64share is by association telling them dhcp-pd is best.=C2=A0=

Dhcp-pd will be deployed as soon as the business = case justifies it, 64share is a single LAN stop gap.=C2=A0

=C2=A0Your issue is simply one of supply and demand. No ietf or 3g= pp document is lacking specification for making dhcp-pd happen. =C2=A0





> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/lis= tinfo/v6ops
>
--94eb2c05cf60d8c4d10549d6dda0-- From nobody Fri Mar 3 09:56:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 132E3129435 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 09:56:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.352 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.352 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LdszRPrMGoIH for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 09:56:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 473521294CD for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 09:56:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v23Huerl030389; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:56:40 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 24A6620D61B; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:56:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 155C3204343; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:56:40 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v23Hud7k030572; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:56:39 +0100 To: Ca By , Erik Kline References: <61403895-2de4-f769-2a8c-486d14a297f4@gmail.com> <66d7e60b-32ec-744f-384e-ef66cc01bf8b@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:56:45 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 17:56:45 -0000 Le 03/03/2017 à 18:27, Ca By a écrit : [...] > For your convenience, i provide this quote from it. > > "DHCPv6 is the best way to delegate a prefix to a LAN link. I agree. > The methods described in this document SHOULD only be applied when > deploying DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation is not achievable in the 3GPP > network and the UE." I disagree with this formulation. It leaves place for applying it. The method in this document SHOULD NOT be applied because it is not a scalable networking technology. Please stop using it. > " > > So telling anyone about 64share is by association telling them > dhcp-pd is best. > > Dhcp-pd will be deployed as soon as the business case justifies it, I think you are too much immediate business oriented. Please have a longer term look. If you agreed that 64share is evil, then you may open the ways for even more traffic into your network. > 64share is a single LAN stop gap. I agree. It is single LAN, but it is not a stop gap. It is a stop in that it stops creating the demand for scalable networking technologies. It stops the edge networks from growing. > Your issue is simply one of supply and demand. There is demand. The supply is lacking. Moreover, it looks as a purposeful refusal to make supply, without any technical issue. Are you interested in getting more traffic through your network? Or not? If you are interested in getting more traffic through your network then give people more addresses - it's as simple as that. > No ietf or 3gpp document is lacking specification for making dhcp-pd > happen. Were the above text corrected as I suggest, I would indeed agree with you. Alex > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> > From nobody Fri Mar 3 10:09:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F34B612957A for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:09:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.748 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.748 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2BcXn3c8Qwki for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:09:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr0-x230.google.com (mail-wr0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B6DFF12956C for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:09:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr0-x230.google.com with SMTP id l37so79024345wrc.1 for ; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 10:09:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Cn+Qbfh00bpbbaovaEYxQnVbWM/jBsCyrM4ipVE0IyI=; b=aMQt7xYTRFivx8vpCRrdcs+YL4cy05Lv0CyJ6ys7vRI7c8GCEes4gA42ci6mRznC72 K1eecQRgjgf6eu8PnGsWPaDwjDr31Dk1aZpDLjVfwT5bZ4lv6OVbmlpz6L/DltlqRUsR suh1s982asOjByiHeRBSAVGLAD4QPi8blASpyr4/7nZa4IQWuZgXMEKNKVPauYxMu8hI mAJSfgNmmXSEZkhS3QT9DPSgM3xHWxN7WhDJS+Vli6E1Xt36a8mU6n0U7bI07qy/JNU6 RS9+32shu47mQkrpt+OBdMJFOZUN1g10rgUdCZOEz+SxXp5rZwnCN/u6VNFNdZlJ5099 Kb0g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Cn+Qbfh00bpbbaovaEYxQnVbWM/jBsCyrM4ipVE0IyI=; b=f9/JNxRd0JXvnZz00GUudTpvY1gyf7FwLPVlEmdNhUpsvkg9WBO/6ucJn0yYBJx3M4 6E5hFC2HHmKu6nfCKG6cugOHYUcCsN9wHVXOToCfCj/rgNbe+qik8GBGye2f5fNH5Cm3 fFgey4KvdZx1hTsNxxp21zDCIVF4eXXlxBzcL10Gu/TG8fOYwnZSQt/UHjreVMG7c/YF 0pG86JlOfQcqfQdveAJdqKpKTR5Bf/QZg+IebMjwMSkdJAssC5/wSU1wFDpNBNXwGpuz Hp+6BzpiMXYY3Dn46RUDkbufFdaCF2COWX6DNxbKv+YTdwtSGiShoOmo2umxCBvRktY8 upng== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39mhGTGV+cuELeztlEvPO3xRMRu36ilTF//V1TXaAWIHqPKZJ/rVEeb6kHWGP+AeRXbWKTP+xbCTDm/uaA== X-Received: by 10.223.163.206 with SMTP id m14mr4254116wrb.34.1488564544232; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 10:09:04 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <61403895-2de4-f769-2a8c-486d14a297f4@gmail.com> <66d7e60b-32ec-744f-384e-ef66cc01bf8b@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ca By Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 18:08:53 +0000 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu , Erik Kline Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045f2204e263f20549d7704e Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 18:09:07 -0000 --f403045f2204e263f20549d7704e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 9:56 AM Alexandre Petrescu < alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: > Le 03/03/2017 =C3=A0 18:27, Ca By a =C3=A9crit : > [...] > > > For your convenience, i provide this quote from it. > > > > "DHCPv6 is the best way to delegate a prefix to a LAN link. > > I agree. > > > The methods described in this document SHOULD only be applied when > > deploying DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation is not achievable in the 3GPP > > network and the UE." > > I disagree with this formulation. It leaves place for applying it. > Correct , 64share was writen to be deployed. > The method in this document SHOULD NOT be applied because it is not a > scalable networking technology. > > Please stop using it. I disagree with SHOULD NOT since i am certainly focused on immediate business / engineering issues. I do not have any more to offer on this topic. > > > " > > > > So telling anyone about 64share is by association telling them > > dhcp-pd is best. > > > > Dhcp-pd will be deployed as soon as the business case justifies it, > > I think you are too much immediate business oriented. Please have a > longer term look. > > If you agreed that 64share is evil, then you may open the ways for even > more traffic into your network. > > > 64share is a single LAN stop gap. > > I agree. It is single LAN, but it is not a stop gap. > > It is a stop in that it stops creating the demand for scalable > networking technologies. It stops the edge networks from growing. > > > Your issue is simply one of supply and demand. > > There is demand. The supply is lacking. Moreover, it looks as a > purposeful refusal to make supply, without any technical issue. > > Are you interested in getting more traffic through your network? Or not? > > If you are interested in getting more traffic through your network then > give people more addresses - it's as simple as that. > > > No ietf or 3gpp document is lacking specification for making dhcp-pd > > happen. > > Were the above text corrected as I suggest, I would indeed agree with you= . > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > >> v6ops@ietf.org > > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >> > > > --f403045f2204e263f20549d7704e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 9:56 AM Ale= xandre Petrescu <alexand= re.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]

> For your convenience, i provide this quote from it.
>
> "DHCPv6 is the best way to delegate a prefix to a LAN link.

I agree.

> The methods described in this document SHOULD only be applied when
> deploying DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation is not achievable in the 3GPP
> network and the UE."

I disagree with this formulation.=C2=A0 It leaves place for applying it.

Correct , 64share was writen to be deploye= d.=C2=A0


The method in this document SHOULD NOT be applied because it is not a
scalable networking technology.

Please stop using it.

I disagree with SHOUL= D NOT since i am certainly focused on immediate business / engineering issu= es.=C2=A0

I do not have any more to offer on this = topic.=C2=A0



> "
>
> So telling anyone about 64share is by association telling them
> dhcp-pd is best.
>
> Dhcp-pd will be deployed as soon as the business case justifies it,
I think you are too much immediate business oriented.=C2=A0 Please have a longer term look.

If you agreed that 64share is evil, then you may open the ways for even
more traffic into your network.

> 64share is a single LAN stop gap.

I agree.=C2=A0 It is single LAN, but it is not a stop gap.

It is a stop in that it stops creating the demand for scalable
networking technologies.=C2=A0 It stops the edge networks from growing.

> Your issue is simply one of supply and demand.

There is demand.=C2=A0 The supply is lacking.=C2=A0 Moreover, it looks as a=
purposeful refusal to make supply, without any technical issue.

Are you interested in getting more traffic through your network?=C2=A0 Or n= ot?

If you are interested in getting more traffic through your network then
give people more addresses - it's as simple as that.

> No ietf or 3gpp document is lacking specification for making dhcp-pd > happen.

Were the above text corrected as I suggest, I would indeed agree with you.<= br class=3D"gmail_msg">
Alex

>
>
>
>
>
>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list=
>>=C2=A0 v6ops@ietf.org <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org> <mailto:v6ops= @ietf.org
> <mailto:v6ops@ietf.org>>
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman= /listinfo/v6ops
>>
>
--f403045f2204e263f20549d7704e-- From nobody Fri Mar 3 10:11:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 761ED12957A for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:11:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.352 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.352 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m8Ew9cdTaf30 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:10:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 08363129594 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:10:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v23IAuOM001536; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 19:10:56 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 2B00D20D735; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 19:10:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B937209D3E; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 19:10:56 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v23IAti8032725; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 19:10:56 +0100 To: Ca By , Erik Kline References: <61403895-2de4-f769-2a8c-486d14a297f4@gmail.com> <66d7e60b-32ec-744f-384e-ef66cc01bf8b@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 19:11:01 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 18:11:00 -0000 Le 03/03/2017 à 19:08, Ca By a écrit : > > On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 9:56 AM Alexandre Petrescu > > wrote: > > Le 03/03/2017 à 18:27, Ca By a écrit : > [...] > > > For your convenience, i provide this quote from it. > > > > "DHCPv6 is the best way to delegate a prefix to a LAN link. > > I agree. > > > The methods described in this document SHOULD only be applied when > > deploying DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation is not achievable in the 3GPP > > network and the UE." > > I disagree with this formulation. It leaves place for applying it. > > > Correct , 64share was writen to be deployed. > > > The method in this document SHOULD NOT be applied because it is not a > scalable networking technology. > > Please stop using it. > > > I disagree with SHOULD NOT since i am certainly focused on immediate > business / engineering issues. That is _too_ immediate business. Maybe you should look at the longer term. > I do not have any more to offer on this topic. That's what I am asking - stop defending this RFC. Alex > > > > > " > > > > So telling anyone about 64share is by association telling them > > dhcp-pd is best. > > > > Dhcp-pd will be deployed as soon as the business case justifies it, > > I think you are too much immediate business oriented. Please have a > longer term look. > > If you agreed that 64share is evil, then you may open the ways for even > more traffic into your network. > > > 64share is a single LAN stop gap. > > I agree. It is single LAN, but it is not a stop gap. > > It is a stop in that it stops creating the demand for scalable > networking technologies. It stops the edge networks from growing. > > > Your issue is simply one of supply and demand. > > There is demand. The supply is lacking. Moreover, it looks as a > purposeful refusal to make supply, without any technical issue. > > Are you interested in getting more traffic through your network? Or > not? > > If you are interested in getting more traffic through your network then > give people more addresses - it's as simple as that. > > > No ietf or 3gpp document is lacking specification for making dhcp-pd > > happen. > > Were the above text corrected as I suggest, I would indeed agree > with you. > > Alex > > > > > > > > > > > > >> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > >> v6ops@ietf.org > > > >> > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >> > > > From nobody Fri Mar 3 10:48:01 2017 Return-Path: <7riw77@gmail.com> X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE59F129974 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:48:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GQ2SzCvei_1A for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:48:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ot0-x22a.google.com (mail-ot0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 25549129980 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 10:48:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ot0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id x37so35030120ota.2 for ; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 10:48:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:thread-index:content-language; bh=Rk7Q6ZYgeN95Ma7952rRWqPIIgl4fuJMGMq5C7KJ1xU=; b=hsYGF1AfGOmtjnlJrnVmqNMoc3/mfJIZUsXbKd2uHQXHHf7waLfo3fWNyutCGFpRj1 a2VH/dgFL9kUZzwjvYOlPN5o1Ny5jraZXZmdgHIbcF2olWCxBiIGw4PFBv8EyhNoEM9t DGaQOOpVpsURFGg8diB6lVtqtl0LCTC8fdDAES7OShig9XFAFDk1gAlSUb+4vfbQF0sA 5/RNxCHDoMLX3XUZk2otHMeux90+KSs4J2WD9ThqIPGJ5qfw3SvnW1IZ2cVfevqDNmJE 5w1rp2avHPvDrIrdjYog+GIO2GlymxfRen5aCCxpIlTTIhCgly0WaAUK0esuMCV28dfy T5dA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=Rk7Q6ZYgeN95Ma7952rRWqPIIgl4fuJMGMq5C7KJ1xU=; b=IDjMQBH8Z1i3efoln1/pn2JAURmVENfk99UCmDngSeB3ur3UlfEafy2QpV4DnQhsbv wuEjWVREhheXd/yRphPmjIV6lcWbqunFp5APQqPxqjJwnqtfxTcki4/CZxk4sIM6GjK8 LJcI79vj/8bU8UnObx2ClIlBubh5HdrArmxDZe5u8Di3Smr2Q0xyrA8qFLSCZhiJdkQ7 ZL7rh7EtB+uS4E2as6I9/zErPbRqcypx1qXlhXXfgD3CH36CApYwCpMEHX+1RE/n8Wnc 9+vJ1vJWIGdl6ykpPFCSUQ33quwEt5kl8XYpf+p27M089Z8a/Z6rNOa9t5wCH8IB4Uiq LKlw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39n9BSqaAmZ3DF0XoRh5PReUogCUpc40LcE7wc/F3hSfWPYbKT4+M4Wu+qtuBqOQAQ== X-Received: by 10.157.1.105 with SMTP id 96mr2075408otu.54.1488566879474; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 10:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from Russ ([2602:30a:2e5b:44d0:59db:2a72:3756:76f9]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e125sm5379873oih.6.2017.03.03.10.47.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Mar 2017 10:47:59 -0800 (PST) From: "Russ White" <7riw77@gmail.com> To: "'Simon Hobson'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" References: <013B7A75-E5F6-4F47-9D92-33114F1781F8@cisco.com> <38FD32ED-C942-40AA-8FC7-365A244AB7C9@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 13:47:56 -0500 Message-ID: <015c01d2944e$ad0c7380$07255a80$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIDc5aCOUgArJ23noNxESgzruZ/+ALleRDvAfvYno8CO6KcGQEHQ0oaAY6Vg0mg1B8vUA== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 18:48:01 -0000 > I think you've missed the issue I'm looking to address - on a quick peruse, it > looks like only the second of those links addresses source address selection > by the host/service. While these various routing protocol extensions may > well be important in the larger networks, I believe the vast majority of small > to medium business have no need of those - the big problem is not how to > route the packets for a given source address(prefix), but how to select the > source address(prefix) in the first place. I think there is something in there that does support that use case--part of this work is around homenet, which should provide the scale down to the small home office. Of course it requires changes to the host/etc., but I think it does solve the problem you've described... :-) Russ From nobody Fri Mar 3 11:12:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DDF6129997 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:12:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LGOVb1x4KqG1 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:11:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [81.174.135.208]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4260212998E for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:11:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from simons-macbookpro.lan (magpiehouse.plus.com [80.229.10.150]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 32E651BC37 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 19:11:51 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 19:11:49 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <40CB35A1-F512-496D-B0B7-19EC947E398D@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <61403895-2de4-f769-2a8c-486d14a297f4@gmail.com> <66d7e60b-32ec-744f-384e-ef66cc01bf8b@gmail.com> To: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 19:12:00 -0000 Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > Are you interested in getting more traffic through your network? Or = not? Based on past activities, I suspect that for many networks, the answer = is "no" ! More specifically, I suspect many would see the inability to = expand the client end network as an advantage - giving them an = opportunity to charge extra from people who do want that extra = functionality. So as to "demand is there, supply isn't" - that may be as much a = business decision (screw the customer) as technical foot dragging. Or perhaps I'm just too cynical about mobile network operators. From nobody Fri Mar 3 11:16:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB45B1295C6 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:16:56 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wJZfaCVFGcsq for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:16:55 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x235.google.com (mail-pf0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E88541295AF for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:16:54 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id j5so36104419pfb.2 for ; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 11:16:54 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=sbXG6bUAaP5ja2b9s82g4Mt2sd7kyzqcH+yKk9BjIrM=; b=wGqDfOr1qCAq4rh5bqc5auM6zRUs2HpP1/+7Em74KRJ5R+nJZgiIFo119xF9Dq5RYn kERCXicQDcR250RXPLIastMkJstrMH9Ts7Im7F3MdCR/hxZyUO4kVjTNiv2njaNRSwp0 3al783d656/0QFLFLPKZg5JqSDAYS7Gc6Po625z/ctAVP33hsheuJK/MzL/PtQPHIJ+i 6KzpkRmDdKIj153PFxCf8Pg8TCVb+aIvwdPJg7P9Ntt/eODMNEQcG4I62IFq5GHMpD1A 8JNuwJgJ06emZ373udkxsIhP4mlyJ7ZDHBzoRUQwOTBzJsSMvuCMQCrBQBU28H320ogq c2hA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=sbXG6bUAaP5ja2b9s82g4Mt2sd7kyzqcH+yKk9BjIrM=; b=arz2MOufzxas+JriD8Zr7WzR1K4YS3DEnbrdd6yNEf5JxHuFC/7V0QyWI+BOlg0TWS 7FkslTLJ4bpLIqKpCD1uuo0jouHf+P/clUDJ4hMrgT85FcfGnAEBV2/lV4VkStQgMeg0 9KUBKsbL7A9at3lJyQA8TIpufL0eXcLVS2mvRkN0bRglhX7ebh0XruV2WgHwE+YLIM/Y EUL4PUPR6qpqU4fo8fgzyObfNk7dx2knLGNKzqRkK1vW8NPe8aw9k9IdDimfQnT0DvmT txNQSH+j7V4B43zbALkQMwVNudvlBd5h5QOWQo6zfXXAz8ZfzL9JAEQ8UcuY3nvRoUKB 4aFQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39n72PCRZVwDd7MojLBlVKkYdRiyiFo5hyZwraXFy/gLyVIgWZDhCoeYqVuiTNTIE4k5 X-Received: by 10.84.148.134 with SMTP id k6mr6518554pla.128.1488568613959; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 11:16:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp-100-99-230-134.pao.corp.google.com ([100.99.230.134]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c64sm24846840pfa.45.2017.03.03.11.16.53 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Mar 2017 11:16:53 -0800 (PST) From: james woodyatt Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4B7ED4D5-4B27-4FA3-B4B2-D0195AD2A9C3" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:16:52 -0800 References: <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> <20170303032623.GR31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> To: IPv6 Operations In-Reply-To: <20170303032623.GR31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> Message-Id: <5B754515-2937-4F79-A7AB-B07AE8AF50A8@google.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 19:16:57 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4B7ED4D5-4B27-4FA3-B4B2-D0195AD2A9C3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mar 2, 2017, at 19:26, Chuck Anderson wrote: > On Fri, Mar 03, 2017 at 02:12:53PM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> On 02/03/2017 18:50, Chuck Anderson wrote: >> ... >>> IPAM vendors don't talk to routers to update their RA >>> config. >>=20 >> I expect some of them do, but if yours doesn't, and you want >> Android devices on your network to be able to do DNS over v6, >> you need to fill that gap somehow. >=20 > I'll just do Anycast DNS. Then it won't matter if I choose to use > DHCPv6 or RA. My point was that the argument that RA is better > because you can more quickly update the DNS server address during a > DNS server failure was a contrived case that no one would rely on. Except home network gateways, which integrate DNS server, RA server and = DHCPv6 server in one host do absolutely rely on this. When the DNS = server moves to a new LAN address (which happens when configuration is = reset and the router restarted, e.g. when firmware is updated) the RA = server can update immediately the hosts on the LAN using the DNS server = from the previous configuration, whereas the hosts with stateless DHCPv6 = configurations will not recognize the new configuration until the old = one expires. Some of us take the user experience of firmware upgrades to home gateway = products seriously. --james woodyatt > --Apple-Mail=_4B7ED4D5-4B27-4FA3-B4B2-D0195AD2A9C3 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Mar 2, 2017, at 19:26, Chuck Anderson <cra@WPI.EDU> = wrote:
On Fri, Mar 03, 2017 at 02:12:53PM +1300, Brian E Carpenter = wrote:
On 02/03/2017 = 18:50, Chuck Anderson wrote:
...
IPAM vendors don't talk to routers to update = their RA
config.

I= expect some of them do, but if yours doesn't, and you want
Android devices on your network to be able to do DNS over = v6,
you need to fill that gap somehow.

I'll just do Anycast DNS. =  Then it won't matter if I choose to use
DHCPv6 or = RA.  My point was that the argument that RA is better
because you can more quickly update the DNS server address = during a
DNS server failure was a contrived case that no = one would rely on.

Except home network gateways, which integrate DNS = server, RA server and DHCPv6 server in one host do absolutely rely on = this. When the DNS server moves to a new LAN address (which happens when = configuration is reset and the router restarted, e.g. when firmware is = updated) the RA server can update immediately the hosts on the LAN using = the DNS server from the previous configuration, whereas the hosts with = stateless DHCPv6 configurations will not recognize the new configuration = until the old one expires.

Some of = us take the user experience of firmware upgrades to home gateway = products seriously.


--james woodyatt <jhw@google.com>



= --Apple-Mail=_4B7ED4D5-4B27-4FA3-B4B2-D0195AD2A9C3-- From nobody Fri Mar 3 11:30:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 758FB1295C6 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:30:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YyN64cDf5QSH for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:30:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:baa::21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6525E1295B0 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:30:41 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from simons-macbookpro.lan (magpiehouse.plus.com [80.229.10.150]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9562C1BC37 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 19:30:34 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 19:30:33 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <1EAF9973-C90D-4E85-B2EC-22041AD5A7C0@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <013B7A75-E5F6-4F47-9D92-33114F1781F8@cisco.com> To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 19:30:42 -0000 otroan@employees.org wrote: > You are right. The effect of MHMP is that the host picks the exit = circuit by the act of picking the source address. > (See also the work on Source address dependent routing). Fred Baker = has also a few drafts on this topic. >=20 > In the context of MHMP there is essentially two ways this _could_ = work: >=20 > 1) The network passes "policy" down to the hosts. And trust the hosts = to do the right thing (possibly combined with some policing). That may = be something PVDs can solve. Or not. > 2) You leave it up to the hosts completely aka throw spaghetti on the = wall. E.g. with MP-TCP or SCTP, where all exit circuits are used and the = transport (or more appropriately named session layer) deals with exit = circuit failure, load balances across connections and so on. >=20 > This is a tussle between network control versus host control. Neither = of which are ready. I used to run IPv6 MHMP at home. Gave up. > ILNP might be your friend. Or just cave and do NPT66. Or use LISP to = multi-home via the support of a 3rd party. >=20 > Now that answer made you happy I'm sure... ;-) Well actually, it does (in a way) make me happy - or at least a bit less = glum. At least I know I'm not alone, and there isn't something obvious = that I've missed ! It does seem that, at the moment, there isn't a simple answer to the = problem - except perhaps NPT= From nobody Fri Mar 3 11:40:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 724731295EE for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:40:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mEB48obsh_yO for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:40:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:baa::21]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 76DA9129593 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 11:40:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from simons-macbookpro.lan (magpiehouse.plus.com [80.229.10.150]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0D1151BC37 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 19:39:59 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: <5B754515-2937-4F79-A7AB-B07AE8AF50A8@google.com> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 19:39:58 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <53999284-562D-40B0-B363-1797250BF68B@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <20170301194418.GA2367@Space.Net> <20170301202746.GE2367@Space.Net> <72926B9D-7A04-4C8F-8D6A-D8C68649EE0F@employees.org> <1046A659-0498-48BE-B53B-1FC08354FB76@thehobsons.co.uk> <9793cd56-87f3-a5e3-114a-01f9c290e2a8@gmail.com> <20170302055021.GL31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> <20170303032623.GR31731@angus.ind.wpi.edu> <5B754515-2937-4F79-A7AB-B07AE8AF50A8@google.com> To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 19:40:05 -0000 james woodyatt wrote: > Except home network gateways, which integrate DNS server, RA server = and DHCPv6 server in one host do absolutely rely on this. In this case, the DNS server and router are one and the same device - if = one goes down, the other does. So it really doesn't matter - when the = router comes back up, so will it's DNS server. > When the DNS server moves to a new LAN address (which happens when = configuration is reset and the router restarted, e.g. when firmware is = updated) ... Don't know what sort of devices you are working with, because I'm used = to devices that can update their firmware without nuking their config - = and I'd be "very unhappy" with a vendor doing that sort of trick. Even where the config does get nuked, what's the first thing you do = after an upgrade ? Perhaps put the config back to what it was ? From nobody Fri Mar 3 12:03:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29A2012960C for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 12:03:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3fln0kGrUwhg for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 12:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x233.google.com (mail-pf0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9EFA31295EE for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 12:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x233.google.com with SMTP id j5so36421249pfb.2 for ; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 12:03:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=8j+VbI14fjf1q/sy1zAdsMi6rAB5iK9hxtiIYjKZ7Lk=; b=l+99ndUVu74id91QVISWtn8PGQRXakBolvtrorFuOpdDPDO82woD4RW+yqM6PfheC7 p6GwSvmhYYRZTkV1Ulsi/jjrb79uzm5AFuwcgLKFKHr/ALC05Fu5jzfqILwxVVwJg5Qt PTOdAC38qFUEWSIibPLV5k/gKER4nb9d9jNm8ie8CuFcqnvnvx48KXsA4w8iNoMjXfN6 BM7XtAXKM4mFbZjlQt4ElHbqk/9yLydAmp0q7fKVo8TP3LWNdEIaqtiprTqK/2HsSq2w m77BHs72WFoq4WiJ+xCvcpf4AKMovaRYVReIwbOgSBEhXi9JusaQXX1uhxrSEJp5kAve BCJQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=8j+VbI14fjf1q/sy1zAdsMi6rAB5iK9hxtiIYjKZ7Lk=; b=ZyLlGKCdkJwMH12FnRrFGOfY0gSCLbPmPrEQS2DF8PDuFjsLGGmdeBgzLFxF9Syb3f at90pI2fpGj8hXo3GglhBLPYFRfoO45fYzfab69jBlQ8D4WYkgz/0xXhMps3VimQq8DY kUcRH98AJLIW00wHkNQrmytGfK+XkZ4/YGZuBZSn3yTLkt38QCoQKHdzQBSNEX9vIrF0 PQWy9mnL40XhDIaawrah0hmD5m6fa2hZeSsQqu+UFL5Iel8s5wFSFCkZunSO1fC1mjkN xhgl1kJK9VxDCpwh7u3vxmpWri5Mwxw/RO230LDHEpyhE28ErrgsnAoOkZx0iehsKVaP WB/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39nZHs241LUpIyWfBZpHOsAgQU1IdLCO90sJbl0Y0QBpsU5NbEe4wTOA+2IYF5UG5g== X-Received: by 10.99.178.9 with SMTP id x9mr5467445pge.48.1488571386131; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 12:03:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (wsip-184-191-158-59.sd.sd.cox.net. [184.191.158.59]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b190sm24946037pfa.110.2017.03.03.12.03.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Mar 2017 12:03:05 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 12:03:03 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6FE3D6B1-C047-43FB-823F-DC29114AA46A@gmail.com> References: <013B7A75-E5F6-4F47-9D92-33114F1781F8@cisco.com> <38FD32ED-C942-40AA-8FC7-365A244AB7C9@gmail.com> To: Simon Hobson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 20:03:08 -0000 On Mar 3, 2017, at 8:53 AM, Simon Hobson wrote: > I think you've missed the issue I'm looking to address - on a quick = peruse, it looks like only the second of those links addresses source = address selection by the host/service. While these various routing = protocol extensions may well be important in the larger networks, I = believe the vast majority of small to medium business have no need of = those - the big problem is not how to route the packets for a given = source address(prefix), but how to select the source address(prefix) in = the first place. In that case, I think I have to refer you to 6man. They have spent an = inordinate amount of time trying to tell hosts how to select a source = address, and wound up mostly saying "please don't use one you think = might be NAT'd, and please don't use 6to4" and otherwise leave the = device to select one at random. Yes, one could structure the table in an = enterprise deployment. But - who does? v6ops isn't about the host, it's about the network as seen by its = operator. 6man is about the host. https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6724 6724 Default Address Selection for Internet Protocol Version 6 (IPv6). = D. Thaler, Ed., R. Draves, A. Matsumoto, T. Chown. September 2012. (Format: TXT=3D74407 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC3484) (Status: PROPOSED STANDARD) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC6724) And of course it's predecessor.= From nobody Fri Mar 3 13:58:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C8A5012963B for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 13:58:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y3v-oMh6MzS5 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 13:58:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [91.239.96.14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 19F1412963A for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 13:58:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.3.83] (unknown [181.165.116.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 472C9801A2; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 22:58:37 +0100 (CET) To: otroan@employees.org References: <148826826343.13815.15231542802790001626.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <4cba7c1a-4006-84d2-9fb3-8f4b65382c90@si6networks.com> <20170228195303.GU2367@Space.Net> <17e7c5ca-7f23-585f-e2c7-5cf97b66adcb@si6networks.com> <8c53ae4d-50cb-89d3-90e3-4fcbaa376058@si6networks.com> <163ebf4b-f3bc-b52c-91c7-6c90ce14d93a@si6networks.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DAD125D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <20170302212007.5D7C865D2D53@rock.dv.isc.org> <247AA730-89E0-48B5-8247-CF6F26E1BC3B@employees.org> From: Fernando Gont X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: <4ee0c786-bf20-22f2-fecd-39f2c11dde5a@si6networks.com> Date: Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:55:29 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <247AA730-89E0-48B5-8247-CF6F26E1BC3B@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] New I-D: SLAAC and DHCPv6 (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration-00.txt) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 21:58:44 -0000 Hi, Ole, On 03/02/2017 08:03 PM, otroan@employees.org wrote: >> >> Shame on us: stateless DHCPv6 support is required. Hence, setting O to 1 >> will not necessarily mean hosts will employ DHCPv6 to e.g. configure DNS >> information. >> >>> In my opinion we should document this state of affairs. >> >> At the very least, document it. But please see the above: we didn't do >> our best job when declaring what must be supported and what need not. > > RFC6434 section 7. > > You need to do a serious reality check if you think writing yet another document saying exactly the same thing one more time is going to change the world. May I ask that you read what you "quote" or reference before doing so? Let's take a look at Section 7 of RFC6434 (that you referenced above): ---- cut here ---- 7.2. Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6) - RFC 3315 7.2.1. Other Configuration Information IPv6 nodes use DHCP [RFC3315] to obtain address configuration information (see Section 5.9.5) and to obtain additional (non- address) configuration. If a host implementation supports applications or other protocols that require configuration that is only available via DHCP, hosts SHOULD implement DHCP. For [fgont] This is flawed. DNS information is also available 8in theory) via RDNSS, hence the paragraph above is an invitation to not implement DHCPv6. Put nther way, what is currently in RFC6434 Section 7 (which you referenced as the text that we're copying) is actually the root of the problem, rather than the solution. specialized devices on which no such configuration need is present, DHCP may not be necessary. An IPv6 node can use the subset of DHCP (described in [RFC3736]) to obtain other configuration information. [fgont] I don't even know what "can" means here. Yeah, sure.. they can use DHCP. What the text should say is that if the O bit is set, nodes MUST use DHCPv6. 7.2.2. Use of Router Advertisements in Managed Environments Nodes using the Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol for IPv6 (DHCPv6) are expected to determine their default router information and on- link prefix information from received Router Advertisements. 7.3. IPv6 Router Advertisement Options for DNS Configuration - RFC 6106 Router Advertisements have historically limited options to those that are critical to basic IPv6 functioning. Originally, DNS configuration was not included as an RA option, and DHCP was the recommended way to obtain DNS configuration information. Over time, the thinking surrounding such an option has evolved. It is now generally recognized that few nodes can function adequately without having access to a working DNS resolver. [RFC5006] was published as an Experimental document in 2007, and recently, a revised version was placed on the Standards Track [RFC6106]. Implementations SHOULD implement the DNS RA option [RFC6106]. [fgont] So... this paragraph states "It is now generally recognized that few nodes can function adequately without having access to a working DNS resolver" then make RDNSS support a MUST. It should also be clear that the above text has a preference for RDNSS, since, based on the reasoning above, you don't need to implement DHCPv6 if what you need is a DNS server (such information can be conveyed in RA messages. ---- cut here ---- Besides, the referenced document (RFC6434) is an informational document. As noted "This document is not an Internet Standards Track specification; it is published for informational purposes.". So, at the end of the day, an implementation can completely ignore this document, and still claim to be compliant with IETF's IPv6 specs. Please check what you reference before posting. Otherwise, that's not much of a service to the community. (It may be a service to vendors, though, that essentially may want to ship products with what they please, leveraging their market position while still claiming that they comply with all of our specs). Thanks, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Fri Mar 3 14:08:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0F52A120724 for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:08:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gHMytLVva6QL for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:08:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x22e.google.com (mail-pf0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D424512963E for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 14:02:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id w189so36995524pfb.0 for ; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 14:02:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EJoc5jMH/yVwValYdk1VITbKENo1M8QM1lN5oSkJnb4=; b=EES8XB17IYjpSztKmq8JaADeDpncK8L9JI+lWJoz6R6mbMGxM8UwlUzdcrCEz6u5sU de7/eys6OwThxR+HZcXoVLuch03VfHa4WrNt6XTAMrJzu9CsSuhL0tsE5Ip0hndfHjKO RilFzXHGN3w28JPIflSTwpZNf50eK/0OBoLH4yI3bke5/primhN2zAvItIeYBZR+idAW clp9EipxrJjoWzFn6crTtvZcPQsDVoPgPw+w0iO4QCUsgCiAjAFqWZFaVeIdV0mZ/GOO TF2pP1rq2wo7B4nQhj0ILpOtX63LTSqxZZWxV4UFXyk1VdWYSHe9oeAivX7KfFajoYY2 kB8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EJoc5jMH/yVwValYdk1VITbKENo1M8QM1lN5oSkJnb4=; b=SLsVqRHLQIEm1Mm06a5a/7SpnteLJiYD/iUkrfrcT9uskxK2QcWumi8JsZZJkGJibX 4XMQ2MVM8/lW4aXUPIuFuDEB+hoLbQu/9petuDxGiylKFgqYtcVFNe7wUkiIImeeMqXY EbecAmvVcZ1ehLSBOdT5AxBAkNL5aCnHC1xKaJboenl48D9aGd26CPQqRqwtcNrGt44e rvR2S5FP9spH8Z36XkFN1ME5TqVH7g1bUvDYVsCYtbJdA7hFq+pLqhOK14jdCfVGznz9 Oy5ytqHtpQCLNPyw4KjV2KZCYHvL0RODwzmHaCyOHzWb4e6i0gaODwkmP9sVKbEz7PgM tPvg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lzyG0Zjxo+SgsWdx0xSKjx9YLcT+Gz407rmSHPq2H3EJunLO6omR/5fMLhcabi4A== X-Received: by 10.99.36.7 with SMTP id k7mr5954510pgk.201.1488578538030; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 14:02:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:4e9f:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:4e9f:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z27sm25209438pfg.38.2017.03.03.14.02.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 03 Mar 2017 14:02:17 -0800 (PST) To: Fred Baker , Simon Hobson References: <013B7A75-E5F6-4F47-9D92-33114F1781F8@cisco.com> <38FD32ED-C942-40AA-8FC7-365A244AB7C9@gmail.com> <6FE3D6B1-C047-43FB-823F-DC29114AA46A@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <909c87b6-4408-61d4-3651-3f9d9b769144@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 11:02:24 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6FE3D6B1-C047-43FB-823F-DC29114AA46A@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 22:08:08 -0000 On 04/03/2017 09:03, Fred Baker wrote: > > On Mar 3, 2017, at 8:53 AM, Simon Hobson wrote: >> I think you've missed the issue I'm looking to address - on a quick peruse, it looks like only the second of those links addresses source address selection by the host/service. While these various routing protocol extensions may well be important in the larger networks, I believe the vast majority of small to medium business have no need of those - the big problem is not how to route the packets for a given source address(prefix), but how to select the source address(prefix) in the first place. > > In that case, I think I have to refer you to 6man. They have spent an inordinate amount of time trying to tell hosts how to select a source address, and wound up mostly saying "please don't use one you think might be NAT'd, and please don't use 6to4" and otherwise leave the device to select one at random. Yes, one could structure the table in an enterprise deployment. But - who does? > > v6ops isn't about the host, it's about the network as seen by its operator. 6man is about the host. > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6724 > 6724 Default Address Selection for Internet Protocol Version 6 (IPv6). D. > Thaler, Ed., R. Draves, A. Matsumoto, T. Chown. September 2012. > (Format: TXT=74407 bytes) (Obsoletes RFC3484) (Status: PROPOSED > STANDARD) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC6724) > > And of course it's predecessor. In my mind, for a smallish site, where source-address based routing is not really a factor except at the exit router, that is also helped by https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8028, which does make a specific recommendation about RFC6724 Rule 5.5. Setting up an appropriate source-routing policy in the exit router certainly seems preferable to NPTv6. Also see https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7157 of course. (Most of that work is aimed at enterprise networks. I agree that the Homenet solution should be the best one for SOHO networks, once it becomes off-the-shelf.) Brian From nobody Fri Mar 3 15:55:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EBDA12950A; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 15:55:19 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: "\"IETF Secretariat\"" To: , X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.46.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148858531931.15846.18442256607786191077.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 15:55:19 -0800 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: [v6ops] v6ops - Requested session has been scheduled for IETF 98 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 03 Mar 2017 23:55:19 -0000 Dear Fred Baker, The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled. Below is the scheduled session information followed by the original request. v6ops Session 1 (2:00:00) Wednesday, Afternoon Session I 1300-1500 Room Name: Zurich A size: 115 --------------------------------------------- Request Information: --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: IPv6 Operations Area Name: Operations and Management Area Session Requester: Fred Baker Number of Sessions: 1 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 100 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: 6man 6lo 6tisch homenet opsawg anima isis Second Priority: intarea opsec Third Priority: dnsop tsvwg People who must be present: Fred Baker Joel Jaeggli Ron Bonica Lee Howard Resources Requested: Meetecho support in room Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Fri Mar 3 18:12:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70F9112941C for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:12:04 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IYmGwZeN86yd for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:12:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x22c.google.com (mail-yw0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C79C112941A for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:12:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id s15so69161138ywg.0 for ; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 18:12:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4gK6eAB45xe0ik81Ba79rFygZYVXIalRsGTG2J8w5Hk=; b=ZAVOAFnSIc+3MjVwo9eokI3rJiExZPLPGaFM76cvilNLVDpaKgHzz35rIpQVNfeVOi Xo54HMZR9h969P3PsGr0c5VVE8WIfEbkvSJlBao1UctrmF/1PqR6jvjGleDUp0RSW3j0 AYh4PWFfvkm/wfy6AaMyHN1nN41C6vBzKcM0yH0WAiWHZhUooYqydCmx9YZySM2nT7sX eEdWAjq3BO2jfFv+4NQTv81eSUt+2K2KfibxmvUEA1xllbWXZDXWB1ZS3vOYuDhmm7M4 uq5PGbblwOualgB0524y6byDuqCK4A//rtygA+hcCNAKp8Mb/Xa4TkfTWhEKAplUjYhN 93OQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4gK6eAB45xe0ik81Ba79rFygZYVXIalRsGTG2J8w5Hk=; b=p7k47r2BY2dS/UUMDkYE0rLYU6dirNb6cInYtlGw7vNam6igdj6nVR1SXEMdhCq5uc k01rJxrrq6URhHwu4yrYwzIgPfx7PkmckhQlXeqofxQzMuYslO9EwtQfpS8cfZDlotkX mcccT4IieqvJVl7YvVUYNqmbSE6kHUfFAb+mbymNj6EPiorYmAYr51o8LNwoyicPxL/S TpJ5prdFwVTX6z6mbshWd1pS9nPu1to7/OjKw56Hhdzs1a9oKBd8atdslh8iLb7gbTsU QFfgx9kmMr4hNj4H5JqXKbpCnoFkuXp4vkPVSVIH/nHo42IsCrZT+TPKjajnL5fH7QJE T/vw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39l6Xe2KdZWUgXvfCGwClUXlGbb6df9pHrNF6xQwHNwIsqfogNwwe83StqpgdrlIBIFdbwQJsmEGtNS8p7dn X-Received: by 10.129.183.18 with SMTP id v18mr3705573ywh.217.1488593521289; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 18:12:01 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.207.4 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 18:11:40 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <61403895-2de4-f769-2a8c-486d14a297f4@gmail.com> <66d7e60b-32ec-744f-384e-ef66cc01bf8b@gmail.com> From: Erik Kline Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 11:11:40 +0900 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="94eb2c1bddf21abddb0549de3034" Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2017 02:12:04 -0000 --94eb2c1bddf21abddb0549de3034 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1bddf20d72ce0549de304b --94eb2c1bddf20d72ce0549de304b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 It is true that it cannot really be used to scale beyond the one hop that's doing the 64sharing. Really the use is for when PD is not available (as Cameron noted). As the first paragraph of 7278 section 1 says, PD support is only even theoretically possible in release-10 networks. I am curious to know how many 3GPP networks (a) are release-10 or above and (b) support PD. Cameron: is there such info somewhere? --94eb2c1bddf20d72ce0549de304b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It is true that it cannot really be used to scale beyond t= he one hop that's doing the 64sharing.=C2=A0 Really the use is for when= PD is not available (as Cameron noted).

As the first pa= ragraph of 7278 section 1 says, PD support is only even theoretically possi= ble in release-10 networks.

I am curious to know h= ow many 3GPP networks (a) are release-10 or above and (b) support PD.
=

Cameron: is there such info somewhere?
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b=GMPs1iKhVxXnlwKRJocv0624wC/YKkBILHgRDou75O87O/EjpSG9V+c1blpPUhaDmN rtcTHQDgl35TF0l5QPSjGbsV1lmuXTAwBhb9cxToK8RL2VDirxJOtaIN3Cmnn+wIXcRR HtkuyUq5am2qAkEqhlepJtiiMipJ3+A7f40JdZgKXfTcxz41F248SlBq3d8OjsJmN0/L JV8helRkg6clvujSVR1eoCqCVV4XJKO0TsCQ8CDWe/8l+u37u4lGBe0Heqo4Uf5RI1iy C0uA2byLYoNmtYQLQwN7hHNSihH89/3mOlq2z3d2uclUSPIaHKi52gb/gSktTBLOLTEh vOyw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lbv8zHm2epcexy9sxvHAg+HUreyDhrqxErwneO+YP6lK/mc8VUzGh4JNjLxj8TWF0iWm4F+rIa3a2b5wEm X-Received: by 10.159.56.193 with SMTP id w1mr2891535uaf.72.1488603398660; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 20:56:38 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.171.2 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 20:56:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.31.171.2 with HTTP; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 20:56:37 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 13:56:37 +0900 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045f4162ca2e860549e07ca4 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2017 04:56:42 -0000 --f403045f4162ca2e860549e07ca4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 RFC 7849 is not a product of v6ops. It's an independent submission and has no standards value. It even says: This document is not an Internet Standards Track specification; it is published for informational purposes. This is a contribution to the RFC Series, independently of any other RFC stream. The RFC Editor has chosen to publish this document at its discretion and makes no statement about its value for implementation or deployment. Documents approved for publication by the RFC Editor are not a candidate for any level of Internet Standard; see Section 2 of RFC 5741 . If you don't like it, take it up with the authors. If you want the IETF to declare RFC 7278 historic or say that it should not or must not be used, write a draft and see if you can get consensus on it in v6ops. Personally I doubt you'll reach consensus, but you're free to take that path. On 3 Mar 2017 10:37 pm, "Alexandre Petrescu" wrote: Hi v6opsers, I suppose this RFC has been developped here in v6ops, otherwise please excuse me. This RFC is an Independent Stream (not IETF Stream, no Standards Track, no BCP) RFC7849 "An IPv6 Profile for 3GPP Mobile Devices". This RFC has a number of problems; they are related to its recommendation of the INFORMATIONAL 64share RFC7278 at the loss of DHCPv6-PD. I propose to make this RFC7278 HISTORICAL, or find some other way to discard its contents with respect to 64share and DHCPv6 PD (Errata?). I also propose to inform officially 3GPP that this specific document should not be taken at face value, but just For Your Information, if you like it. Here are the detail comments: ===== L_REC#1: For deployments that require that the same /64 prefix > be shared, > I think this formulation is a reverse formulation. Some deployments need more than one /64, and an INFORMATIONAL solution is to share one /64 among many subnets. That does not mean the deployment requires 'sharing' the same /64. Deployments require multiple /64s. This should be either removed or corrected. (and I understand yes that the word 'share' may have been used by some as in 'WiFi is a shared link, as opposed to 3GPP being a ptp link', in which case - yes, some deployments require the use of 'shared links/WiFi' connected to a cellular link; beware the misinterpretations). the cellular device should support [RFC7278] to enable sharing a /64 > prefix between the LAN and the WAN interfaces. > That is a wrong recommendation. The right recommendation is the following: the cellular device SHOULD support DHCPv6-PD. And the text MUST NOT recommend sharing a /64 prefix. The WAN interface is the one towards the Gateway GPRS Support Node > (GGSN) / Packet Data Network Gateway (PGW). > > Prefix Delegation (refer to L_REC#2) is the target solution for > It's not a 'target', it is a 'now'. It comes before 64share. distributing prefixes in the LAN side but, because the device may > attach to earlier 3GPP release networks, a means to share a /64 > prefix is also recommended [RFC7278]. > No! That recommendation is wrong. That RFC is INFORMATIONAL and we should stop recommending it. I has huge problems, at least with respect to scalability. This backwards-compatible requirement does not make much sense here. We dont know what is a 'earlier 3GPP release network' with respect to 64share or DHCPv6-PD. Since 64share puts no requirement on the network, earlier 3GPP networks are precisely the same as newer 3GPP networks when it comes to 64share. [RFC7278] must be invoked only if Prefix Delegation is not in use. > ... _and_ if it works for the network being deployed. If it does not work, it MUST NOT be invoked. L_REC#2: The cellular device must support Prefix Delegation > capabilities [RFC3633] and must support the Prefix Exclude Option for > DHCPv6-based Prefix Delegation as defined in [RFC6603]. > Why is the 'prefix exclude' option a MUST? I may need to understand that, by further reading... I am asking because that puts additional burden on the smartphone implementer. I suggest to make 'prefix exclude' an option, not a must. Do not block the deployment of DHCPv6-PD because 'prefix exclude' is absent. Particularly, it must behave as a Requesting Router. > Yes, and it is a MUST, not a must. Cellular networks are more and more perceived as an alternative to > fixed broadband networks for home IP- based services delivery; > I agree. especially with the advent of smartphones and 3GPP data dongles. > _and_ M2M and IoT devices which are not 'dongles' (btw, 'dongles' are only the USB dongles, there are no other kinds of dongles). There is a need for an efficient mechanism to assign larger prefixes > (other than /64s) to cellular hosts > I fully agree. so that each LAN segment can get its own /64 prefix > _if_ that LAN is an Ethernet, yes it needs a /64. Often it is the case. and multi-link subnet issues to be avoided. > I agree, there is an RFC that must be cited there. In case a prefix is delegated to a cellular host using DHCPv6, the > cellular device will be configured with two prefixes: > > (1) one for the 3GPP link allocated using the Stateless Address > Autoconfiguration (SLAAC) mechanism and > > (2) another one delegated for LANs acquired during the Prefix > Delegation operation. > I dont know what you mean by 'configured', but this second prefix may just be in the rt table of the device (not necessarily on its interfaces). I dont understand why you say 'will be configured with two prefixes'. How about the default route? Note that the 3GPP network architecture requires both the WAN and the > delegated prefix to be aggregatable so the subscriber can be > identified using a single prefix. > Yes, it's good to avoid waste. Without the Prefix Exclude Option, the delegating router (GGSN/PGW) > will have to ensure compliance with [RFC3633] (e.g., halving the > delegated prefix and assigning the WAN prefix out of the first half > and the prefix to be delegated to the terminal from the second > half). > So 'prefix exclude' is not mandatory in order to have DHCPv6-PD working? Earlier it seemed mandatory. Because Prefix Delegation capabilities may not be available in some > attached networks, L_REC#1 is strongly recommended to accommodate > early deployments. ===== > This is wrong. We should _never_ recommend somehting we know it does not scale. 64share does not scale, there is a 'multi-link subnets' RFC and there is operational experience showing so. Alex _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --f403045f4162ca2e860549e07ca4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
RFC 7849 is not a product of v6ops. It's an inde= pendent submission and has no standards value. It even says:


   This document is not an Internet Standards Track specification; it is
   published for informational purposes.

   This is a contribution to the RFC Series, independently of any other
   RFC stream.  The RFC Editor has chosen to publish this document at
   its discretion and makes no statement about its value for
   implementation or deployment.  Documents approved for publication by
   the RFC Editor are not a candidate for any level of Internet
   Standard; see =
Section=C2=A02 of RFC 5741.

If y= ou don't like it, take it up with the authors.
<= br>
If you want the IETF to declare RFC 7278 histori= c or say that it should not or must not be used, write a draft and see if y= ou can get consensus on it in v6ops. Personally I doubt you'll reach co= nsensus, but you're free to take that path.

On 3 Mar= 2017 10:37 pm, "Alexandre Petrescu" <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi v6opsers,

I suppose this RFC has been developped here in v6ops, otherwise please
excuse me.

This RFC is an Independent Stream (not IETF Stream, no Standards Track,
no BCP) RFC7849 "An IPv6 Profile for 3GPP Mobile Devices".

This RFC has a number of problems; they are related to its
recommendation of the INFORMATIONAL 64share RFC7278 at the loss of
DHCPv6-PD.

I propose to make this RFC7278 HISTORICAL, or find some other way to
discard its contents with respect to 64share and DHCPv6 PD (Errata?).

I also propose to inform officially 3GPP that this specific document
should not be taken at face value, but just For Your Information, if you like it.

Here are the detail comments:

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D L_REC#1:=C2=A0 For deployments that require that the same /= 64 prefix
be shared,

I think this formulation is a reverse formulation.

Some deployments need more than one /64, and an INFORMATIONAL solution
is to share one /64 among many subnets.=C2=A0 That does not mean the
deployment requires 'sharing' the same /64.=C2=A0 Deployments requi= re
multiple /64s.

This should be either removed or corrected.

(and I understand yes that the word 'share' may have been used by s= ome
as in 'WiFi is a shared link, as opposed to 3GPP being a ptp link',= in
which case - yes, some deployments require the use of 'shared
links/WiFi' connected to a cellular link; beware the misinterpretations= ).

the cellular device should support [RFC7278] to enable sharing a /64
=C2=A0prefix between the LAN and the WAN interfaces.

That is a wrong recommendation.

The right recommendation is the following: the cellular device SHOULD
support DHCPv6-PD.

And the text MUST NOT recommend sharing a /64 prefix.

The WAN interface is the one towards the Gateway GPRS Support Node
(GGSN) / Packet Data Network Gateway (PGW).

Prefix Delegation (refer to L_REC#2) is the target solution for

It's not a 'target', it is a 'now'.=C2=A0 It comes befo= re 64share.

distributing prefixes in the LAN side but, because the device may
attach to earlier 3GPP release networks, a means to share a /64
prefix is also recommended [RFC7278].

No!=C2=A0 That recommendation is wrong.=C2=A0 That RFC is INFORMATIONAL and= we
should stop recommending it.=C2=A0 I has huge problems, at least with respe= ct
to scalability.

This backwards-compatible requirement does not make much sense here.=C2=A0 = We
dont know what is a 'earlier 3GPP release network' with respect to<= br> 64share or DHCPv6-PD.=C2=A0 Since 64share puts no requirement on the networ= k,
earlier 3GPP networks are precisely the same as newer 3GPP networks when it comes to 64share.

[RFC7278] must be invoked only if Prefix Delegation is not in use.

... _and_ if it works for the network being deployed.=C2=A0 If it does not<= br> work, it MUST NOT be invoked.

L_REC#2:=C2=A0 The cellular device must support Prefix Delegation
capabilities [RFC3633] and must support the Prefix Exclude Option for
DHCPv6-based Prefix Delegation as defined in [RFC6603].

Why is the 'prefix exclude' option a MUST?=C2=A0 I may need to unde= rstand
that, by further reading...

I am asking because that puts additional burden on the smartphone
implementer.

I suggest to make 'prefix exclude' an option, not a must.=C2=A0 Do = not block
the deployment of DHCPv6-PD because 'prefix exclude' is absent.

Particularly, it must behave as a Requesting Router.

Yes, and it is a MUST, not a must.

Cellular networks are more and more perceived as an alternative to
fixed broadband networks for home IP- based services delivery;

I agree.

especially with the advent of smartphones and 3GPP data dongles.

_and_ M2M and IoT devices which are not 'dongles' (btw, 'dongle= s' are
only the USB dongles, there are no other kinds of dongles).

There is a need for an efficient mechanism to assign larger prefixes
=C2=A0(other than /64s) to cellular hosts

I fully agree.

so that each LAN segment can get its own /64 prefix

_if_ that LAN is an Ethernet, yes it needs a /64.=C2=A0 Often it is the cas= e.

and multi-link subnet issues to be avoided.

I agree, there is an RFC that must be cited there.

In case a prefix is delegated to a cellular host using DHCPv6, the
cellular device will be configured with two prefixes:

(1)=C2=A0 one for the 3GPP link allocated using the Stateless Address
Autoconfiguration (SLAAC) mechanism and

(2)=C2=A0 another one delegated for LANs acquired during the Prefix
Delegation operation.

I dont know what you mean by 'configured', but this second prefix m= ay
just be in the rt table of the device (not necessarily on its
interfaces).=C2=A0 I dont understand why you say 'will be configured wi= th two
prefixes'.

How about the default route?

Note that the 3GPP network architecture requires both the WAN and the
delegated prefix to be aggregatable so the subscriber can be
identified using a single prefix.

Yes, it's good to avoid waste.

Without the Prefix Exclude Option, the delegating router (GGSN/PGW)
will have to ensure compliance with [RFC3633] (e.g., halving the
delegated prefix and assigning the WAN prefix out of the first half
and the prefix to be delegated to the terminal from the second
half).

So 'prefix exclude' is not mandatory in order to have DHCPv6-PD wor= king?
=C2=A0Earlier it seemed mandatory.

Because Prefix Delegation capabilities may not be available in some
attached networks, L_REC#1 is strongly recommended to accommodate
early deployments. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D

This is wrong.=C2=A0 We should _never_ recommend somehting we know it does<= br> not scale.=C2=A0 64share does not scale, there is a 'multi-link subnets= ' RFC
and there is operational experience showing so.

Alex

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--f403045f4162ca2e860549e07ca4-- From nobody Fri Mar 3 22:50:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D25F12949D for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 22:50:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G59YNgg7yY3S for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 22:50:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-wr0-x22b.google.com (mail-wr0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C1C312949E for ; Fri, 3 Mar 2017 22:50:40 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-wr0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id u108so86214392wrb.3 for ; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 22:50:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=x9+wXS6Xj/pCLOH6J1rDxszZ6lOPBFiloeKS8VnjRCs=; b=Ch0xk4iq2jR2qLFz4hmAFF4+FneFvkmn06ueTpThokXqbxAlkZAlFf9J5Copz1d1v6 BYufs5peEGVlJ3joqsZVL/5zU69AvQ08GtYKOGZg4ZnzjJfnvCmB7BmMmX0II3Yn++sF Wmn9TX6r3neJZZz9PFScnB0qLcW92VEAR0dOOkO3FqnrfMh5QyTy6YSTHzXHfoj5xE5Y 6PJm9c08URS2/mHN7wYfPDAp+ah1bJtEbi5/jUL6igbJCGVffzhhO6V9I46uHTDDCyVr GQQoLS9EfVuXgil9tShS5VZG+pB1kdeSLOA1YK5iIQhxNGQdZxzwB0m50IGF4w1TWMmc e51g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=x9+wXS6Xj/pCLOH6J1rDxszZ6lOPBFiloeKS8VnjRCs=; b=tfJgWT241NrAt/Dm40joV1Cgnr1y2tXljvV58uctH6GYTxqXLcWAKOKe/h7a3aXTWo 4Ps6xQeAzBowGwb9sQ972CXfq1b4oCNRww8lQ0J6EEelLJMZa+wKim3GbgKOe9gCmddV Dr6G0JLt7XcMF6Nk2Fn3zMYud464SsXbbt3TgnyH/c7R5do4tDO2mRe+moMmyg3Yp9+/ gKNKvKNX+QsaUUQ/OiPHsDVGUgZpo3ytLFAeD+6F51ppxRLCK2e49J3Lv6LNO6opISEG w4Qus0bnnVfl0maQ3f4qPtqpQ99vm9Jfn/kpH7ALlIwDMq2p2yrs1KjgO+uP55oQBK8T gGww== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lfUcTGQXh3ogMaEhCS4yO0hzDE/D3Z+Wiz+js43p0FlBP2qcivIq0MLJRhf5hCLiRsrFc6bN0mI3MQJA== X-Received: by 10.223.163.206 with SMTP id m14mr6428256wrb.34.1488610239219; Fri, 03 Mar 2017 22:50:39 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <61403895-2de4-f769-2a8c-486d14a297f4@gmail.com> <66d7e60b-32ec-744f-384e-ef66cc01bf8b@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: From: Ca By Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2017 06:50:28 +0000 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu , Erik Kline Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045f2204848b9b0549e2145a Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2017 06:50:42 -0000 --f403045f2204848b9b0549e2145a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 7:12 PM Erik Kline wrote: > It is true that it cannot really be used to scale beyond the one hop > that's doing the 64sharing. Really the use is for when PD is not available > (as Cameron noted). > > As the first paragraph of 7278 section 1 says, PD support is only even > theoretically possible in release-10 networks. > > I am curious to know how many 3GPP networks (a) are release-10 or above > and (b) support PD. > Any given 3GPP network is not one release or another. Most mobile operators are effectively systems integrators that stitch together multiple technologies. For example, t-mobile usa is deploying LAA this year. Does that make t-mobile a release 12 network? Not strictly. > Cameron: is there such info somewhere? > Not that i know of. --f403045f2204848b9b0549e2145a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 7:12 PM Eri= k Kline <ek@google.com> wrote:
It is true = that it cannot really be used to scale beyond the one hop that's doing = the 64sharing.=C2=A0 Really the use is for when PD is not available (as Cam= eron noted).

As the first paragraph of 7278 section 1 says, PD support = is only even theoretically possible in release-10 networks.

I am = curious to know how many 3GPP networks (a) are release-10 or above and (b) = support PD.
Any given 3GPP network is not one release or another. Most mobi= le operators are effectively systems integrators that stitch together multi= ple =C2=A0technologies.=C2=A0 For example, t-mobile usa is deploying LAA th= is year.=C2=A0 Does that make t-mobile a release 12 network?=C2=A0 Not stri= ctly.=C2=A0



Cameron: is there such info somewhere?

Not that i know of.=C2=A0


--f403045f2204848b9b0549e2145a-- From nobody Sat Mar 4 05:01:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B73411295B2 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 05:01:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2GJXAZTRBl8w for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 05:01:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 883BE129596 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 05:01:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v24D1d5u021979; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:01:40 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id E50ED203AAD; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:01:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7B4A200CE9; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:01:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from [132.166.84.121] ([132.166.84.121]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v24D1dxQ013270; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:01:39 +0100 To: Lorenzo Colitti References: From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <12d65957-5261-b9ab-bf95-b7c95525c5c7@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:01:43 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2017 13:01:43 -0000 Le 04/03/2017 à 05:56, Lorenzo Colitti a écrit : > RFC 7849 is not a product of v6ops. Seems so... although I remember there was some discussion here about it. > It's an independent submission and has no standards value. It even > says: > > > > This document is not an Internet Standards Track specification; it is > published for informational purposes. I agree. I would like to echo that. > This is a contribution to the RFC Series, independently of any other > RFC stream. The RFC Editor has chosen to publish this document at > its discretion and makes no statement about its value for > implementation or deployment. Documents approved for publication by > the RFC Editor are not a candidate for any level of Internet > Standard; see Section 2 of RFC 5741 > . > > > If you don't like it, take it up with the authors. There are very many. Is there one that is the main author? > If you want the IETF to declare RFC 7278 historic or say that it > should not or must not be used, write a draft and see if you can get > consensus on it in v6ops. There is already such an RFC - it is DHCPv6-PD and other Stds Track RFCs that cite it. I could write another draft in support of DHCPv6-PD, or I could help someone to. In the past I already did for some RFCs supporting DHCPv6-PD. But isn't that enough documents already present? Arent they enough to warrant the invalidation of this particular RFC? > Personally I doubt you'll reach consensus, but you're free to take > that path. Thanks for encouraging me :-) But seriously I appreciate invitations to write drafts. Alex > > On 3 Mar 2017 10:37 pm, "Alexandre Petrescu" > > > wrote: > > Hi v6opsers, > > I suppose this RFC has been developped here in v6ops, otherwise > please excuse me. > > This RFC is an Independent Stream (not IETF Stream, no Standards > Track, no BCP) RFC7849 "An IPv6 Profile for 3GPP Mobile Devices". > > This RFC has a number of problems; they are related to its > recommendation of the INFORMATIONAL 64share RFC7278 at the loss of > DHCPv6-PD. > > I propose to make this RFC7278 HISTORICAL, or find some other way to > discard its contents with respect to 64share and DHCPv6 PD > (Errata?). > > I also propose to inform officially 3GPP that this specific document > should not be taken at face value, but just For Your Information, > if you like it. > > Here are the detail comments: > > ===== L_REC#1: For deployments that require that the same /64 prefix > be shared, > > > I think this formulation is a reverse formulation. > > Some deployments need more than one /64, and an INFORMATIONAL > solution is to share one /64 among many subnets. That does not mean > the deployment requires 'sharing' the same /64. Deployments require > multiple /64s. > > This should be either removed or corrected. > > (and I understand yes that the word 'share' may have been used by > some as in 'WiFi is a shared link, as opposed to 3GPP being a ptp > link', in which case - yes, some deployments require the use of > 'shared links/WiFi' connected to a cellular link; beware the > misinterpretations). > > the cellular device should support [RFC7278] to enable sharing a /64 > prefix between the LAN and the WAN interfaces. > > > That is a wrong recommendation. > > The right recommendation is the following: the cellular device SHOULD > support DHCPv6-PD. > > And the text MUST NOT recommend sharing a /64 prefix. > > The WAN interface is the one towards the Gateway GPRS Support Node > (GGSN) / Packet Data Network Gateway (PGW). > > Prefix Delegation (refer to L_REC#2) is the target solution for > > > It's not a 'target', it is a 'now'. It comes before 64share. > > distributing prefixes in the LAN side but, because the device may > attach to earlier 3GPP release networks, a means to share a /64 > prefix is also recommended [RFC7278]. > > > No! That recommendation is wrong. That RFC is INFORMATIONAL and we > should stop recommending it. I has huge problems, at least with > respect to scalability. > > This backwards-compatible requirement does not make much sense here. > We dont know what is a 'earlier 3GPP release network' with respect to > 64share or DHCPv6-PD. Since 64share puts no requirement on the > network, earlier 3GPP networks are precisely the same as newer 3GPP > networks when it comes to 64share. > > [RFC7278] must be invoked only if Prefix Delegation is not in use. > > > ... _and_ if it works for the network being deployed. If it does not > work, it MUST NOT be invoked. > > L_REC#2: The cellular device must support Prefix Delegation > capabilities [RFC3633] and must support the Prefix Exclude Option for > DHCPv6-based Prefix Delegation as defined in [RFC6603]. > > > Why is the 'prefix exclude' option a MUST? I may need to understand > that, by further reading... > > I am asking because that puts additional burden on the smartphone > implementer. > > I suggest to make 'prefix exclude' an option, not a must. Do not > block the deployment of DHCPv6-PD because 'prefix exclude' is > absent. > > Particularly, it must behave as a Requesting Router. > > > Yes, and it is a MUST, not a must. > > Cellular networks are more and more perceived as an alternative to > fixed broadband networks for home IP- based services delivery; > > > I agree. > > especially with the advent of smartphones and 3GPP data dongles. > > > _and_ M2M and IoT devices which are not 'dongles' (btw, 'dongles' are > only the USB dongles, there are no other kinds of dongles). > > There is a need for an efficient mechanism to assign larger prefixes > (other than /64s) to cellular hosts > > > I fully agree. > > so that each LAN segment can get its own /64 prefix > > > _if_ that LAN is an Ethernet, yes it needs a /64. Often it is the > case. > > and multi-link subnet issues to be avoided. > > > I agree, there is an RFC that must be cited there. > > In case a prefix is delegated to a cellular host using DHCPv6, the > cellular device will be configured with two prefixes: > > (1) one for the 3GPP link allocated using the Stateless Address > Autoconfiguration (SLAAC) mechanism and > > (2) another one delegated for LANs acquired during the Prefix > Delegation operation. > > > I dont know what you mean by 'configured', but this second prefix may > just be in the rt table of the device (not necessarily on its > interfaces). I dont understand why you say 'will be configured with > two prefixes'. > > How about the default route? > > Note that the 3GPP network architecture requires both the WAN and the > delegated prefix to be aggregatable so the subscriber can be > identified using a single prefix. > > > Yes, it's good to avoid waste. > > Without the Prefix Exclude Option, the delegating router (GGSN/PGW) > will have to ensure compliance with [RFC3633] (e.g., halving the > delegated prefix and assigning the WAN prefix out of the first half > and the prefix to be delegated to the terminal from the second > half). > > > So 'prefix exclude' is not mandatory in order to have DHCPv6-PD > working? Earlier it seemed mandatory. > > Because Prefix Delegation capabilities may not be available in some > attached networks, L_REC#1 is strongly recommended to accommodate > early deployments. ===== > > > This is wrong. We should _never_ recommend somehting we know it does > not scale. 64share does not scale, there is a 'multi-link subnets' > RFC and there is operational experience showing so. > > Alex > > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > From nobody Sat Mar 4 05:08:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E3431295C8 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 05:07:59 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.353 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.353 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PzePun_4AVQ7 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 05:07:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F3C6B1295C7 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 05:07:57 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v24D7tFD010427; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:07:55 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 0BEB1204030; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:07:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 005F2200BA5; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:07:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from [132.166.84.121] ([132.166.84.121]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v24D7rY5014783; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:07:54 +0100 To: Ca By References: <61403895-2de4-f769-2a8c-486d14a297f4@gmail.com> <66d7e60b-32ec-744f-384e-ef66cc01bf8b@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <40ddbe5d-991c-5043-5c51-f3ab48a5cddf@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 14:07:57 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2017 13:07:59 -0000 Cameron, In adition to this release clarification that I thank for. I would like to ask: when an operator stitches some protocol to others, like LAA, how much dependent is she of, say, a router manufacturer such as Ericsson, for example? Could it be the case that one particular manufacturer avoids implementing some protocol because of IPR conditions? Alex Le 04/03/2017 à 07:50, Ca By a écrit : > > On Fri, Mar 3, 2017 at 7:12 PM Erik Kline > wrote: > > It is true that it cannot really be used to scale beyond the one hop > that's doing the 64sharing. Really the use is for when PD is not > available (as Cameron noted). > > As the first paragraph of 7278 section 1 says, PD support is only > even theoretically possible in release-10 networks. > > I am curious to know how many 3GPP networks (a) are release-10 or > above and (b) support PD. > > > Any given 3GPP network is not one release or another. Most mobile > operators are effectively systems integrators that stitch together > multiple technologies. For example, t-mobile usa is deploying LAA this > year. Does that make t-mobile a release 12 network? Not strictly. > > > > Cameron: is there such info somewhere? > > > Not that i know of. > > From nobody Sat Mar 4 12:12:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D5311295A1 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 12:12:23 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7kCNIb7vuQaT for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 12:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x22b.google.com (mail-pf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 56C7E1295A7 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 12:12:22 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id j5so44404931pfb.2 for ; Sat, 04 Mar 2017 12:12:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=WX2XStkjenfiVm2LJgH6B3x3VgVM6AYb1YYJA0dmU9c=; b=n1EAwAiapY51oU4z6w6kJp6v5CACoTJoMAOMilrrkUF0gILAKfKECCn2oI66ZhZoN8 mxliWDyhOtVTtLdeIcuVZblTJE9d0c9jqhcBgZ570KlFWyZ4TNmpcdx8ngMrE5ouO9du LxJQg9zlc3UuqDFQgU5Sy0O2Aaf7FVa7PKV2Mcsl2gFaSBHxkIBu2ujciyCMW4smy8nF Ir31dlf49j6Be+s7V+LqeW6xikJ0ksO0XrO5fDF2LxleuDK9H/q9ocvY7m9if58U2JlB QamXce94ulAH198zv0C1dRRrntWz89TZvG90KUae6RQealC3kQhjiM9t8h6F476SpZUY ZTDw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=WX2XStkjenfiVm2LJgH6B3x3VgVM6AYb1YYJA0dmU9c=; b=aee69U9PucxpbJU+6L4wncJ0Ow7D9bq8n+OFtdo37yZICEqfElcsxC2T9jG8cZp4Vj GOXeZBjT10gm0ptm6rVmv4nWwgimLV4jw208DaaRpGYCmLk7oiPS5oiWqU77xI2tJcFK Fk9cS1akEDBrTXIqdiBBJTvgkVw6wY9LhrKRtcgQUewG61XJyQdICWt6qtHWEahaBV+R mwkUXWx8t59TDA9m53+8L3mP852191bOHc0SC2ngercynlCWRs70nI6WAGnYCndlQwAV 7dFKSZn4GoTZlay6EN6KFqo9PGnhUkEk1PjX72ddqe+LcHBbAQcSvErc+sMcsZ3vG6gu GSIw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39nhMWVzCqtOqpMu3HLSuYy13hx3vroNkmOFdbuXx+8jl1849A+1f3j0ijIZkIx2CQ== X-Received: by 10.84.228.208 with SMTP id y16mr13931948pli.168.1488658341954; Sat, 04 Mar 2017 12:12:21 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (wsip-184-191-158-59.sd.sd.cox.net. [184.191.158.59]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v186sm30824625pgv.44.2017.03.04.12.12.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 04 Mar 2017 12:12:20 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <12d65957-5261-b9ab-bf95-b7c95525c5c7@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 4 Mar 2017 12:12:24 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <12d65957-5261-b9ab-bf95-b7c95525c5c7@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 04 Mar 2017 20:12:23 -0000 > On Mar 4, 2017, at 5:01 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 >> RFC 7849 is not a product of v6ops. >=20 > Seems so... although I remember there was some discussion here about = it. It was introduced in v6ops and discussed. It went through several = revisions, including being adopted by the working group and then dropped = due to dissent. - = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-binet-v6ops-cellular-host-reqs-rfc3= 316update - = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-binet-v6ops-cellular-host-requireme= nts - = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile I think the fairest thing to say is that there were three separate = consensuses in the discussion: those that supported it (the authors, = representing a number of 3GPP networks), those that didn't (a set of = people who also worked in 3GPP), and those that wished we would talk = about something else. The chairs (Joel and I) eventually suggested to = the authors that they publish it in the Independent Stream, which they = did. From nobody Sat Mar 4 18:57:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 68696129415 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 18:57:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wKdEwZyq3-Mo for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 18:57:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x22c.google.com (mail-pg0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1E791294B5 for ; Sat, 4 Mar 2017 18:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id b129so55635491pgc.2 for ; Sat, 04 Mar 2017 18:57:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=lpHXczYpblzVL6W3QtpVQpQoBMRomJ8z6zSKATZOULs=; b=aAPAE5/2Cj5FgjbJW5R0g8H6ZZWd8s8seOw4RC+va1TZ5lirLq+ScCmIdiTEVN700i iZ72wxyURWWtB5NpQkf3PtFPDIVN7C0su2+KQc34ft4apwRCO+NboBJqiJiorHPtZZjq Ssx2NX5G6ekpCN5nphCkcSyDNWhVEHgZ/Bw1J9H5vwQyDbDqjorgTP0oYrH7/eohoul2 OEaCDcfyWTVbSupBWuPQkNY1QyHeE7YnZ1G6xeqc9gCU8LaLo3NHDw5FK1UtA3plRoHO e4v3IdWV10vK9ohbnsYWVEAXi0NRHOci13V88qoLlbHJ6CHjnLWY2RtIrkIC/kctTRIf vfwQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=lpHXczYpblzVL6W3QtpVQpQoBMRomJ8z6zSKATZOULs=; b=Zy1W3o7gzX4N4oJtkHmV/Y1msB/UnQNJsqCk4fpJBfIlKPqJS5M5Pxz7115cz+vKr+ YaWqGFy5Ma4kji/Hi1DSaN3dE+QCqyuL9ZQG7HRo/V6WRU1qEYplXo0Dd3LxbkEYyeC+ XhIenoczqkdMdJzXLv+qkS24j9OH2/QSSLwLIMEBMZpz58ziEV5OEhz19bqaXciaUBhc 0jjrffxRLtKmj0fpGtWyei0wor57nzfG73DW0Ly2MgAZvTbv9Wa+npWgkr/fa8EkkVJa MQeYRWxCUVgxlJUyVYjSSpQs2xMrLCHEQtR3JkHKIrDMiKlizHQ1ILUiUUw1UW0lf/19 oE8w== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39na+ZPe6oUkJyeNeT5mWsoGJaIlF0JHmF2TJuMMtgw5jrRqYJWyEJ/OQyAms/yWhw== X-Received: by 10.84.214.129 with SMTP id j1mr15916150pli.23.1488682623572; Sat, 04 Mar 2017 18:57:03 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2406:e007:7204:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? ([2406:e007:7204:1:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z26sm384442pgc.57.2017.03.04.18.57.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 04 Mar 2017 18:57:02 -0800 (PST) To: Fred Baker , Alexandre Petrescu References: <12d65957-5261-b9ab-bf95-b7c95525c5c7@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 15:57:00 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2017 02:57:05 -0000 On 05/03/2017 09:12, Fred Baker wrote: > >> On Mar 4, 2017, at 5:01 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >> >>> RFC 7849 is not a product of v6ops. >> >> Seems so... although I remember there was some discussion here about it. > > It was introduced in v6ops and discussed. It went through several revisions, including being adopted by the working group and then dropped due to dissent. > > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-binet-v6ops-cellular-host-reqs-rfc3316update > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-binet-v6ops-cellular-host-requirements > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile > > I think the fairest thing to say is that there were three separate consensuses in the discussion: those that supported it (the authors, representing a number of 3GPP networks), those that didn't (a set of people who also worked in 3GPP), and those that wished we would talk about something else. The chairs (Joel and I) eventually suggested to the authors that they publish it in the Independent Stream, which they did. So why are we even discussing a document whose boilerplate says things like "The consensus-based IETF description of IPv6 functionality for cellular hosts is described in RFC 7066. ... This document is not an Internet Standards Track specification; it is published for informational purposes. This is a contribution to the RFC Series, independently of any other RFC stream. The RFC Editor has chosen to publish this document at its discretion and makes no statement about its value for implementation or deployment. Documents approved for publication by the RFC Editor are not a candidate for any level of Internet Standard..." ? Brian From nobody Sun Mar 5 04:29:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA0211294E4 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 04:29:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2U2IVFjVLfLj for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 04:29:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.145]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B3D341294DD for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 04:29:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v25CTZfh028462; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 13:29:35 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id C63AB2029DB; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 13:29:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6CA4201138; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 13:29:35 +0100 (CET) Received: from [132.166.84.87] ([132.166.84.87]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v25CTYpt014664; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 13:29:35 +0100 To: Fred Baker References: <12d65957-5261-b9ab-bf95-b7c95525c5c7@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <6ff8636e-b3cc-fb61-2561-8d323fdb1bfc@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 13:29:38 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2017 12:29:41 -0000 Le 04/03/2017 21:12, Fred Baker a crit : > >> On Mar 4, 2017, at 5:01 AM, Alexandre Petrescu >> wrote: >> >>> RFC 7849 is not a product of v6ops. >> >> Seems so... although I remember there was some discussion here >> about it. > > It was introduced in v6ops and discussed. It went through several > revisions, including being adopted by the working group and then > dropped due to dissent. > > - > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-binet-v6ops-cellular-host-reqs-rfc3316update > > > - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-binet-v6ops-cellular-host-requirements > - > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile > > > I think the fairest thing to say is that there were three separate > consensuses in the discussion: those that supported it (the authors, > representing a number of 3GPP networks), those that didn't (a set of > people who also worked in 3GPP), and those that wished we would talk > about something else. The chairs (Joel and I) eventually suggested > to the authors that they publish it in the Independent Stream, which > they did. Hi Fred, I think that course of action looks reasonable. I think often RFCs get this path of independent stream. However, I would like to raise a strong doubt about making RFC at IETF when IETF does not want it to be an RFC. I think it is a waste of time from both IETF process participants, and also from operators redirecting me to that RFC while also telling me it has little value other than simply having "IETF" and "3GPP" in its front page. If it is an individual ambition from authors and Sponsor, then it could stay at Internet Draft level - experience shows now Internet Drafts live long time even though they are 'expired'. Or it could be published as other means. Alex > > > From nobody Sun Mar 5 04:30:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 23E381294FF for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 04:30:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yWkCE30c2PdS for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 04:30:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 598341294DD for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 04:30:48 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v25CUk3d010127; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 13:30:46 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 5BF13202DC8; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 13:30:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C516202AA8; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 13:30:46 +0100 (CET) Received: from [132.166.84.87] ([132.166.84.87]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v25CUiwO014932; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 13:30:45 +0100 To: Brian E Carpenter , Fred Baker References: <12d65957-5261-b9ab-bf95-b7c95525c5c7@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <04b8df47-23fe-de46-658e-aa663d4c7e70@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 13:30:48 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2017 12:30:50 -0000 Le 05/03/2017 à 03:57, Brian E Carpenter a écrit : > On 05/03/2017 09:12, Fred Baker wrote: >> >>> On Mar 4, 2017, at 5:01 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >>> >>>> RFC 7849 is not a product of v6ops. >>> >>> Seems so... although I remember there was some discussion here about it. >> >> It was introduced in v6ops and discussed. It went through several revisions, including being adopted by the working group and then dropped due to dissent. >> >> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-binet-v6ops-cellular-host-reqs-rfc3316update >> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-binet-v6ops-cellular-host-requirements >> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile >> >> I think the fairest thing to say is that there were three separate consensuses in the discussion: those that supported it (the authors, representing a number of 3GPP networks), those that didn't (a set of people who also worked in 3GPP), and those that wished we would talk about something else. The chairs (Joel and I) eventually suggested to the authors that they publish it in the Independent Stream, which they did. > > So why are we even discussing a document whose boilerplate says things like > > "The consensus-based IETF description of IPv6 functionality for > cellular hosts is described in RFC 7066. > ... > This document is not an Internet Standards Track specification; it is > published for informational purposes. As such, it should not have an RFC number. There are many I-Ds out there without RFC numbers - they are also for informational purposes. > This is a contribution to the RFC Series, independently of any other > RFC stream. The RFC Editor has chosen to publish this document at > its discretion and makes no statement about its value for > implementation or deployment. Documents approved for publication by > the RFC Editor are not a candidate for any level of Internet > Standard..." As such, it should not have an RFC number. Alex > > ? > > Brian > From nobody Sun Mar 5 11:08:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 339B6127601 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 11:08:07 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uB6I2VqLlAEb for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 11:08:05 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x22e.google.com (mail-pg0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 09F051294D5 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 11:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id 187so4703691pgb.3 for ; Sun, 05 Mar 2017 11:08:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=fjC9m2DrrxdROuUcjfxhnFrV/nTifJiy7CByKjrxsuY=; b=mClTdtKfWvNe7L7d1vVDlW//LHuMdhqsRXH5kqoGRvPinDd7druUkuU3HhlW1PeKHA xaPqsMc/J8BR4TLxjznYfRNJtX+pudhqwVbpRcDWepOmocSk1r68U3clEG0N57D2IS29 ONva+vHEQtG56hqW0/TR/BHon527CEY4raaX6wt3VPAe+MpItmZBibrwxVj97bihbyKi MsqxNP2etfNKGCR2ZupIEeY8924QFBmDKpgtoLIR2LZ9/N4HSHjrIdOs0rVMLY7FVHMH pOEPFe+wbxhdFotiSWtL1l5FwyyxeczFQdQpxMdj5XGCcBpg9uhS764fwQZtzgAB7csx TF5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=fjC9m2DrrxdROuUcjfxhnFrV/nTifJiy7CByKjrxsuY=; b=MiHMv1LMt1gCZ+IESvL5UAC7oeyUbM1diktL350RFczsifHwqMXAfvUIYVbfG1pQMr Az6uK8hwhCAmkXAeSq6BR92N+fO72aOCraJOpwQsjIwCoAfr1Iksldum/UWM1gZ+JOvG a4KHtxkFBA6M0HPyeNEn1myc5sjwdnxtgpqOHuzaQfmeee4O0nBB51P9Qldw6mxyN6ev 2tIKkWm/k+g7kslpYdVJMiBKHey0f8M+rXOr1ehaM8uA9nzaMLoRCRaGXEih1wP8nVqi sP93U5MSFvGjr8p7vssgDP6YrCfCZiFEowjEt2VZznxN618ZuRK8gFtXoYg4f/Ga5Oyx +04g== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39kORL93DrVNsF3OEq99tk9K9jzO5IZcncs09l5Mj7zmwWDDxxdyJ8TS+j1uONDzmA== X-Received: by 10.98.130.65 with SMTP id w62mr16697466pfd.47.1488740884127; Sun, 05 Mar 2017 11:08:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.21] ([118.149.103.253]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a90sm14350685pfg.78.2017.03.05.11.08.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 05 Mar 2017 11:08:03 -0800 (PST) To: Alexandre Petrescu References: <12d65957-5261-b9ab-bf95-b7c95525c5c7@gmail.com> <04b8df47-23fe-de46-658e-aa663d4c7e70@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 08:07:57 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <04b8df47-23fe-de46-658e-aa663d4c7e70@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2017 19:08:07 -0000 On 06/03/2017 01:30, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >=20 >=20 > Le 05/03/2017 =C3=A0 03:57, Brian E Carpenter a =C3=A9crit : >> On 05/03/2017 09:12, Fred Baker wrote: >>> >>>> On Mar 4, 2017, at 5:01 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >>>> >>>>> RFC 7849 is not a product of v6ops. >>>> >>>> Seems so... although I remember there was some discussion here about= it. >>> >>> It was introduced in v6ops and discussed. It went through several rev= isions, including being adopted by the working group and then dropped due= to dissent. >>> >>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-binet-v6ops-cellular-host-= reqs-rfc3316update >>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-binet-v6ops-cellular-host-= requirements >>> - https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-p= rofile >>> >>> I think the fairest thing to say is that there were three separate co= nsensuses in the discussion: those that supported it (the authors, repres= enting a number of 3GPP networks), those that didn't (a set of people who= also worked in 3GPP), and those that wished we would talk about somethin= g else. The chairs (Joel and I) eventually suggested to the authors that = they publish it in the Independent Stream, which they did. >> >> So why are we even discussing a document whose boilerplate says things= like >> >> "The consensus-based IETF description of IPv6 functionality for >> cellular hosts is described in RFC 7066. >> ... >> This document is not an Internet Standards Track specification; it = is >> published for informational purposes. >=20 > As such, it should not have an RFC number. The IETF does not own the RFC series. See https://www.rfc-editor.org/abou= t/independent/ and RFCs 5741, 5742, 6548. Brian (member of the ISEB, https://www.rfc-editor.org/about/ISEB/ ) >=20 > There are many I-Ds out there without RFC numbers - they are also for=20 > informational purposes. >=20 >> This is a contribution to the RFC Series, independently of any othe= r >> RFC stream. The RFC Editor has chosen to publish this document at >> its discretion and makes no statement about its value for >> implementation or deployment. Documents approved for publication b= y >> the RFC Editor are not a candidate for any level of Internet >> Standard..." >=20 > As such, it should not have an RFC number. >=20 > Alex >=20 >> >> ? >> >> Brian >> >=20 From nobody Sun Mar 5 11:28:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4A3D5129435 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 11:28:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.352 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.352 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iXZZp70jWmC4 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 11:28:36 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 370671294CE for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 11:28:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v25JSXXh012632; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 20:28:33 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 37D6E204BC9; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 20:28:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28692200C15; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 20:28:33 +0100 (CET) Received: from [132.166.84.3] ([132.166.84.3]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v25JSWCX005066; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 20:28:32 +0100 To: Brian E Carpenter References: <12d65957-5261-b9ab-bf95-b7c95525c5c7@gmail.com> <04b8df47-23fe-de46-658e-aa663d4c7e70@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <889e1415-cd8d-cb2b-5581-c0ee57834ce5@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 5 Mar 2017 20:28:34 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2017 19:28:38 -0000 Le 05/03/2017 à 20:07, Brian E Carpenter a écrit : [...] >>> "The consensus-based IETF description of IPv6 functionality for >>> cellular hosts is described in RFC 7066. ... This document is >>> not an Internet Standards Track specification; it is published >>> for informational purposes. >> >> As such, it should not have an RFC number. > > The IETF does not own the RFC series. See > https://www.rfc-editor.org/about/independent/ and RFCs 5741, 5742, > 6548. I will look at that. Until then: The RFC-Editor MUST NOT publish documents which are _against_ technically valid oppinion of professionals of the technology, represented in the WG. When the RFC-Editor carefully Edits text written by the technically inclined, the technically inclined does not dare to correct them back, right? In return, the RFC-Editor should not publish technical oppinion which is against technical oppinion of a particular WG. They dont have the appropriate skillset to qualify that. I could agree they could publish something that is neutral, like an April Fool's RFC. But it is obvious this document is far from neutral: it even lists requirements(!) How could someone publish something that says "deployments require X" when people doing these deployments say "deployments require Y"? Also, I wonder whether Authors of the document are conscious that that document has no value whatsoever? If it were so, the document would not even be invoked, in any discussion... so why publishing it at all? But I think the Authors believe this RFC has some value, they are using it somehow, otherwise they would not agree publishing it. Who can gain from this? How is the document used? Does the RFC-Editor have some explanation about that? (and no, I will not write a document about what may appear a destructing activity; I prefer continue working in a constructive way towards deployment of DHCPv6-PD in 3GPP networks - the "target"; I just hope the RFC Editor does not make that harder :-) Alex > > Brian (member of the ISEB, https://www.rfc-editor.org/about/ISEB/ ) > >> >> There are many I-Ds out there without RFC numbers - they are also >> for informational purposes. >> >>> This is a contribution to the RFC Series, independently of any >>> other RFC stream. The RFC Editor has chosen to publish this >>> document at its discretion and makes no statement about its >>> value for implementation or deployment. Documents approved for >>> publication by the RFC Editor are not a candidate for any level >>> of Internet Standard..." >> >> As such, it should not have an RFC number. >> >> Alex >> >>> >>> ? >>> >>> Brian >>> >> > > From nobody Sun Mar 5 11:44:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ED7E1294E1 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 11:44:42 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VM018G-8qsqV for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 11:44:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x231.google.com (mail-pg0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DC961294CE for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 11:44:41 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x231.google.com with SMTP id 25so58751707pgy.0 for ; Sun, 05 Mar 2017 11:44:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wPOZ/lw+gsLJ83X+fp+2lVxz85IGewJMEWja8KzTgqw=; b=WyXO1WGK5PLdtCMol41CtV/crElktaJoxLV9csj3peVKMcR3C/pgCQk4Et2tmsp9wM 6D39xkBDIkFy5xL1vfGoKqmAwj/oqdi2MJXXuXXM2qj877XmShHC8GR5IgakPcg6xJBk TCCCGFIzIAKAdstLZzf2ctMxoiTvoSRvipxMti7c+masiYefxQjzY8ZAfVqTGCm3oGov ETQQUWRj7ZkHBDY0IMYrRW1EGyrhsNheqdb8jDvqR+K2iRqLnlmx+R5wkcdOsXpdl9NA gjyv4BWGAlCnePTGzQPbT/H6k2JdZZPt18zIdnNcvN7kGVFPLhyQF5CgnYHL3nf0t9U+ YbeA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wPOZ/lw+gsLJ83X+fp+2lVxz85IGewJMEWja8KzTgqw=; b=uLm4zQeE172FYD4QFOwtKVdxqlPFQ58qDLF+zxPfnwpI8EPEGuFycdqS//+GO2DjSH 3zoU3EVGKxj9XFmPpJKDyqoqQKcanr4xuNJYU7nQbVFuCsRYb3NmUz2IDWmrW9O1lN+1 KC4ANgn6WIJG5bXzkEnPyUAb9W1fLhwCe9fQjYwDPxtwT2/r7MzLgaqwBQJPSFGt0gBG 2UEEobNKkDTQml+uZGjowvvD82NiWW81VobsWhg8CKV4ySwS/NjoVtGQcoF7E0fPwzRv x1oDk8GEE4kIuBpxm39pHszVDf3z1Ngv4AzxUzhxrtHUdDnJlsKIBzXuSNcXVq1PK0xI YLAg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lY1swvLeybvfNQmnbdPXmfaLnDZQhqMWSHLi8D9Ugy/+8FsJUBB76uFf1du4VM/Q== X-Received: by 10.99.117.85 with SMTP id f21mr16032604pgn.62.1488743080450; Sun, 05 Mar 2017 11:44:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.178.21] ([118.149.103.253]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i3sm31585239pfk.47.2017.03.05.11.44.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 05 Mar 2017 11:44:39 -0800 (PST) To: Alexandre Petrescu References: <12d65957-5261-b9ab-bf95-b7c95525c5c7@gmail.com> <04b8df47-23fe-de46-658e-aa663d4c7e70@gmail.com> <889e1415-cd8d-cb2b-5581-c0ee57834ce5@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <28195a4f-8ef6-adb8-19a1-4ab93ee0bd19@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 08:44:35 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <889e1415-cd8d-cb2b-5581-c0ee57834ce5@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 05 Mar 2017 19:44:42 -0000 On 06/03/2017 08:28, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > Le 05/03/2017 =C3=A0 20:07, Brian E Carpenter a =C3=A9crit : > [...] >>>> "The consensus-based IETF description of IPv6 functionality for >>>> cellular hosts is described in RFC 7066. ... This document is >>>> not an Internet Standards Track specification; it is published >>>> for informational purposes. >>> >>> As such, it should not have an RFC number. >> >> The IETF does not own the RFC series. See >> https://www.rfc-editor.org/about/independent/ and RFCs 5741, 5742, >> 6548. >=20 > I will look at that. >=20 > Until then: >=20 > The RFC-Editor MUST NOT publish documents which are _against_ > technically valid oppinion of professionals of the technology, > represented in the WG. Well, actually, that is exactly what the Independent series of RFCs *can* do. This is not the list for that discussion, however.=20 Brian From nobody Sun Mar 5 23:02:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 46521128DF6 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 23:02:27 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.62 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.62 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id o-2SF_zI7lCF for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 23:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from relais-inet.orange.com (mta241.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4D125127A90 for ; Sun, 5 Mar 2017 23:02:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from opfedar03.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.5]) by opfedar25.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 721DE12029E; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 08:02:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.58]) by opfedar03.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 5789C180065; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 08:02:22 +0100 (CET) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM33.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::3881:fc15:b4b2:9017%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 08:02:22 +0100 From: To: Alexandre Petrescu Thread-Topic: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP Thread-Index: AQHSlKO0E1bptndPKUmhAHrg3rUgN6GElOaAgALMAgA= Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 07:02:21 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009E1CA47@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <12d65957-5261-b9ab-bf95-b7c95525c5c7@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <12d65957-5261-b9ab-bf95-b7c95525c5c7@gmail.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.1] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 07:02:27 -0000 QWxleCwgDQoNClBsZWFzZSBzZWUgaW5saW5lLiANCg0KQ2hlZXJzLA0KTWVkDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1N ZXNzYWdlIGQnb3JpZ2luZS0tLS0tDQo+IERlwqA6IHY2b3BzIFttYWlsdG86djZvcHMtYm91bmNl 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bmV0IGlzc3VlcyB0byBiZSBhdm9pZGVkLiAgVGhlIHN1cHBvcnQgb2YgdGhpcyBmdW5jdGlvbmFs aXR5IGluDQogICBib3RoIGNlbGx1bGFyIGFuZCBmaXhlZCBuZXR3b3JrcyBpcyBrZXkgZm9yIGZp eGVkLW1vYmlsZSBjb252ZXJnZW5jZS4NCg0KVW5sZXNzIHlvdSBoYXZlIGEgYmV0dGVyIHNvbHV0 aW9uIHRvIHNoYXJlIGEgc2luZ2xlIC82NCBwcmVmaXggb3ZlciBhIGNlbGx1bGFyIG5ldHdvcmsg d2hlbiBQRCBpcyBub3Qgc3VwcG9ydGVkIChkZXZpY2UsIG5ldHdvcmssIG9yIGJvdGgpLCB0aGUg cmVjb21tZW5kYXRpb24gaW4gUkZDNzg0IGlzIHRoZSB3YXkgdGhlIHByb2NlZWQgKG9mIGNvdXJz ZSwgZnJvbSB0aGUgc3RhbmRwb2ludCBvZiB0aGUgYXV0aG9ycyBvZiB0aGF0IFJGQykuIA0KDQpD aGVlcnMsDQpNZWQgDQogDQo= From nobody Mon Mar 6 07:19:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31FAA1294D1 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 07:19:44 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.353 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.353 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XRyoNaU8pCDu for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 07:19:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 959D6129454 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 07:19:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v26FJdhe030775; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 16:19:39 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 034FE209ED8; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 16:19:39 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C29209E92; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 16:19:38 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v26FJceR021996; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 16:19:38 +0100 To: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com References: <12d65957-5261-b9ab-bf95-b7c95525c5c7@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009E1CA47@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <63fc25f7-1677-acfa-f957-fbe275f0fb05@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 16:19:41 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B933009E1CA47@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 15:19:44 -0000 Le 06/03/2017 à 08:02, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com a écrit : > Alex, > > Please see inline. > > Cheers, Med > >> -----Message d'origine----- De : v6ops >> [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Alexandre Petrescu >> Envoyé : samedi 4 mars 2017 14:02 À : Lorenzo Colitti Cc : >> v6ops@ietf.org WG Objet : Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend >> 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP >> >> >> >> Le 04/03/2017 à 05:56, Lorenzo Colitti a écrit : >>> RFC 7849 is not a product of v6ops. >> >> Seems so... although I remember there was some discussion here >> about it. >> >>> It's an independent submission and has no standards value. It >>> even says: >>> >>> >>> >>> This document is not an Internet Standards Track specification; >>> it is published for informational purposes. >> >> I agree. I would like to echo that. >> >>> This is a contribution to the RFC Series, independently of any >>> other RFC stream. The RFC Editor has chosen to publish this >>> document at its discretion and makes no statement about its >>> value for implementation or deployment. Documents approved for >>> publication by the RFC Editor are not a candidate for any level >>> of Internet Standard; see Section 2 of RFC 5741 >>> . >>> >>> >>> If you don't like it, take it up with the authors. >> >> There are very many. >> >> Is there one that is the main author? >> >>> If you want the IETF to declare RFC 7278 historic or say that it >>> should not or must not be used, write a draft and see if you >>> can get consensus on it in v6ops. >> >> There is already such an RFC - it is DHCPv6-PD and other Stds >> Track RFCs that cite it. > > [Med] For the matters discussed in RFC7849, the only available RFC > with an IETF consensus is: RFC7066. Med, as I said, DHCPv6-PD is a Standards Track document and is agreed and implemented and consensual. Why does not RFC7849 require it? Why does RFC7849 require something else? > This RFC[7066] reflects the current 3GPP documents: > > Starting from Release-10, DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation was added as an > optional feature to the 3GPP system architecture [RFC3633]. The > Prefix Delegation model defined for Release-10 requires that the /64 > IPv6 prefix assigned to the cellular host on the 3GPP link must > aggregate with the shorter delegated IPv6 prefix. The cellular host > should implement the Prefix Exclude Option for DHCPv6 Prefix > Delegation [RFC6603] (see [RFC6459], Section 5.3 for further > discussion). I agree with RFC7066. So why does not RFC7849 require DHCPv6-PD too? Why does RFC7849 require something else than DHCPv6-PD? > I'm quite sure that language is not what you are looking for. I agree. > If so, you can add RFC7066 to your list of RFCs to be updated. I > will be supportive. RFC7066 is fine with respect to DHCPv6-PD: it seems to require it. As such I agree with it. (it has some other issues in detail, but I agree with RFC7066 and its stance it takes with respect to DHCPv6-PD) > FWIW, you can grab some motivation text from RFC7849, that says > explicitly the following: > > This profile uses a stronger language for the support of Prefix > Delegation compared to [RFC7066]. Excuse me, Med, but this RFC7849 says: > L_REC#1: For deployments that require that the same /64 prefix be > shared, the cellular device should support [RFC7278] to enable > sharing a /64 prefix between the LAN and the WAN interfaces. The WAN > interface is the one towards the Gateway GPRS Support Node (GGSN) / > Packet Data Network Gateway (PGW). > > Prefix Delegation (refer to L_REC#2) is the target solution for > distributing prefixes in the LAN side but, because the device may > attach to earlier 3GPP release networks, a means to share a /64 > prefix is also recommended [RFC7278]. > > [RFC7278] must be invoked only if Prefix Delegation is not in use. This text is not an invitation to use DHCPv6-PD. It is an invitation to use 64share. I fully disagree with this text. BEcause of that, I disagree with you saying that DHCPv6-PD uses an even stronger language to support DHCPv6-PD, than RFC7066. RFC7066 does not even mention 64share, whereas RFC7849 requires it. If its "L_REC#2" requiring DHCPv6-PD came _before_ "L_REC#1" then I'd agree with you. But as of now the reverse is true: RFC7849 requires _first_ 64share and only second DHCPv6-PD. As such it delays arrival of DHCPv6-PD. > The main motivation is that cellular networks are more and more > perceived as an alternative to fixed networks for home IP-based > services delivery; especially with the advent of smartphones and 3GPP > data dongles. There is a need for an efficient mechanism to assign > larger prefixes to cellular hosts so that each LAN segment can get > its own /64 prefix and multi-link subnet issues to be avoided. The > support of this functionality in both cellular and fixed networks is > key for fixed-mobile convergence. I agree. But not with 64share. > Unless you have a better solution to share a single /64 prefix over > a cellular network when PD is not supported (device, network, or > both), the recommendation in RFC784 is the way the proceed (of > course, from the standpoint of the authors of that RFC). Med - with all due respect that I have to your oppinion, and about the IPv6 connections about which I am very happy. Here is my answer: /64share is a non-scalable technology that hurts more than it helps. There are many other protocols that could be used. Each of these has been standardised and has consensus at IETF. The most prominent of these protocols, that most consider most viable is this: DHCPv6-PD. And that is a protocol that a 3GPP network may have something to say about, whereas a 3GPP network should never impose a User Equipment to share some prefix. IP addresses are unique and distinct, they are not to be shared. Alex > > Cheers, Med > > From nobody Mon Mar 6 10:48:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA49C129969 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 10:48:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oZWEgZmy8J2d for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 10:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61D03129968 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 10:47:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #127) id m1ckxfo-0000IMC; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 19:47:56 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <2c0ab33b-abbe-caf1-6147-0c583d7f5d61@gmail.com> <453e5b4160514907bc1bb822770e0cac@XCH15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com> <5BC57F0E-50FD-4452-853F-A08291C91EB1@google.com> <5B4AFF50-8CA9-4134-8CE2-A383DB5F8BF5@google.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 6 Mar 2017 09:19:26 -0800 ." <5B4AFF50-8CA9-4134-8CE2-A383DB5F8BF5@google.com> Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 19:47:55 +0100 Archived-At: Cc: james woodyatt Subject: Re: [v6ops] A proposal for draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 18:48:02 -0000 > I found it confusing at first too, but the RFC 2119 keyword > language in RFC 4862 is pretty unambiguous, and it makes sense > too if you think about PIO updates that only change the lifetimes > and the value of the A flag. The requirement to drop all PIO > with invalid prefix length for the link type, regardless of the > A flag, ensures with a simple-to-implement rule that you never > take a misconfigured prefix as on-link if you cannot ever > auto-configure an address in the prefix when the update to A=1 > arrives. > > This may not be the behavior youd prefer that RFC 4862 require, > but the requirement is clearly there and certification tests > are within their ambit to check for it. Moreover, this proposed > successor to RFC 4291 doesnt even have an informative reference > to RFC 4862 in it, much less an explicitly declared update. And > I dont believe it should. If your stack only does this when the A bit is set, then I don't care that much. I'm perfectly happy if SLAAC remains at 64 bits and anything else requires DHCP or manual config. Technically, if you only drop the PIO if the A bit is set, then it is still future proof, because any future change to the prefix length can just require two options, one with the A bit set and one with the L bit set. Certainly if the A bit is clear, to reach the MUST in step d), you must have ignored step a). In addition, step d) spells out that prefixes that don't match the IID have a meaning in onlink processing, making it completely clear that 'in order to detect and avoid a configuration error specifying an invalid prefix length in the context of address autoconfiguration' means just that. If RFC 4861 meant to ignore the PIO option for the purpose of onlink then RFC 4861 would have said so directly. In any case, I think the 'MUST drop' interpretation of RFC 4862 is completely wrong. There is no way that a MUST in RFC 4862 can change the behavior of RFC 4861 without RFC 4862 explicitly updating RFC 4861. If that is intended, we should at least add an errata to RFC 4862. I'm not sure why you would think RFC 4291 should say something about the PIO option and the L bit processing? So it is not so much what I prefer. It is already spelled out. Note that your argument 'ensures with a simple-to-implement rule that you never take a misconfigured prefix as on-link' is not reflected in RFC 4862. RFC 4862 talks about misconfiguration with respect to autoconfiguration and is explict that this length check does not hold for onlink processing. Again 'in order to detect and avoid a configuration error specifying an invalid prefix length in the context of address autoconfiguration' Finally, the 'MUST drop' interpetation is not consistent with the behavior of FreeBSD, MacOS, and Linux. So I now start to wonder where the 'MUST drop' interpretation comes from and if anyone ever bothered to check out the behavior of existing stacks. From nobody Mon Mar 6 10:52:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 104EA12996E for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 10:52:34 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ilWeg9PxvDSu for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 10:52:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6AFA9129967 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 10:52:32 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #127) id m1ckxkF-0000DJC; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 19:52:31 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <2c0ab33b-abbe-caf1-6147-0c583d7f5d61@gmail.com> <453e5b4160514907bc1bb822770e0cac@XCH15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com> <5BC57F0E-50FD-4452-853F-A08291C91EB1@google.com> <5B4AFF50-8CA9-4134-8CE2-A383DB5F8BF5@google.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 06 Mar 2017 19:47:55 +0100 ." Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 19:52:31 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] A proposal for draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 18:52:34 -0000 >If your stack only does this when the A bit is set, then I don't care >that much. I'm perfectly happy if SLAAC remains at 64 bits and anything >else requires DHCP or manual config. This should have gone to 6man. But may be interesting here as well as some interpretations of RFC 4862 seems to make it impossible to have onlink prefixes that are not /64. From nobody Mon Mar 6 11:48:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 455661299AF for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 11:48:14 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZNupRqiFfYz1 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 11:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x230.google.com (mail-pf0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C329112945B for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 11:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x230.google.com with SMTP id j5so64547204pfb.2 for ; Mon, 06 Mar 2017 11:48:12 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=TTgHITRBwsg7wb2/oBrHQ9z7urNt6jynCTDRohCwR34=; b=KV28fpkWkJe1zSJREAU9hzLH7lH18vltEUzz4jgmLg1XWQLZPp91g+yOC+fz/uUPoO HOCuBasoBAu/iJGQjFtT5YwPHW4NVZDP5+u52wVIt6NCod3bCFzG2jjps2PLLkKPFwZ4 wmeYwkhMTwzdCgcoq1EdH/gjoMk8FLEhY9ZqTAfXPYP24JZvuWU/cxwR4eYalT+TtTC5 JtSJznEPWi4M3AzlHz6JNs2g9GouUyBYfheBF/NhjdhsCzhEYM9M/V2N4hQBxhAVYnj6 eLQ4/l1wUMHBr7GY4WRT+LDO7SFak3xZgrDsixHBQU4vNYMPrgtRYvlM+6cBRBknk/l3 AZ8w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=TTgHITRBwsg7wb2/oBrHQ9z7urNt6jynCTDRohCwR34=; b=Frn/LPTp/Z7dxn4koQ/OrhTrlLntUCMIMXAERhrDalHcfyaOzOBdJke0tKBCRi4urq 14wQPjs43uUBh/krNpyuR4QXs5bITzcYlGgkITY4DCGyTgRT+Z8GwF/XV9tEaOf0R7Oz 53iVb19Mk+GeSv1RiFja1DnWN4ptwe6KwKoUIQQjwa8ZuhU+CiM2FV9xJTK+WMaZwFS0 kDUlo1LIWikGw/kkVia76FNp39Cc8rRZ0KWL3pQBGrxl31a48VrgVJgPIg4TpV4dJspw 2/xZd0Nmlugv+Y6m+T5UH9JTIAjtMd6a7N+vumW5nSHB3amu47hXqvyLQ5XfeflyDQ4T 39Hg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39nylCLs1GKyebuEpuKL8ChexFXs4cF+yN0uRIVvMg38YpceHHfwU4qZ6XBMOTOu7g== X-Received: by 10.99.145.194 with SMTP id l185mr22555279pge.12.1488829692336; Mon, 06 Mar 2017 11:48:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (wsip-184-191-158-59.sd.sd.cox.net. [184.191.158.59]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 15sm41398705pgh.21.2017.03.06.11.48.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 06 Mar 2017 11:48:10 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <6ff8636e-b3cc-fb61-2561-8d323fdb1bfc@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 11:48:17 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <89673817-84E6-43BA-99D0-0C1DF09415E5@gmail.com> References: <12d65957-5261-b9ab-bf95-b7c95525c5c7@gmail.com> <6ff8636e-b3cc-fb61-2561-8d323fdb1bfc@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] RFC7849 must not recommend 64share, and must not be recommended itself to 3GPP X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 19:48:14 -0000 You may be correct. My understanding of the author's intention/usage is = that, like anyone that purchases equipment and software, they include in = their RFP/RFQ references that they want a vendor to say they support. = They can use this in that context. The IETF is not recommending it, but = a purchasing agent might require it for products used in their network. There is an issue with posting as an internet draft and leaving it = hanging in space. We claim that they disappear, and we actually = kinda-sorta make it look that way. We also state, in the I-D = boilerplate, that folks shouldn't reference it. It becomes referencable = when it gets an RFC number. Now, there's what we say and what we do, I = understand, but we do try to pretend that they are the same thing. The Independent Stream, whether or not it has been called that (it was = once called "I sent something to Jon"), has been with use since the RFC = series came into existence. It publishes April Fool's RFCs, poetry (RFC = 968), white papers, and a variety of other things. And yes, companies = have published what are otherwise proprietary protocols or descriptions = of proprietary technology. We didn't call it the "Independent Stream" in = 1994, we simply called it "publishing as INFORMATIONAL" or = "...EXPERIMENTAL", but RFC 1701/2 (GRE) was pretty much that; we knew = how to send IP/IP and a few other things, but we needed a way to send = AppleTalk/IP, SNA/IP, and etc. The authors designed and published a way = to do it, which allowed other companies to also use it at their = discretion. Six years later, it was updated and published as a Proposed = Standard, and there has been further work. Think of RFC 1701/2 as a pair = of "Internet Drafts", if you will, that had a longer lifetime. When we = had experience with it, we collectively decided we wanted an actual = consensus document. And the rest is history. My point being that using the Independent Stream for this kind of thing = isn't exactly new. It's not something I would recommend to anyone, but = it is a tool that is available. =20 > On Mar 5, 2017, at 4:29 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 > Le 04/03/2017 =C3=A0 21:12, Fred Baker a =C3=A9crit : >>=20 >>> On Mar 4, 2017, at 5:01 AM, Alexandre Petrescu >>> wrote: >>>=20 >>>> RFC 7849 is not a product of v6ops. >>>=20 >>> Seems so... although I remember there was some discussion here >>> about it. >>=20 >> It was introduced in v6ops and discussed. It went through several >> revisions, including being adopted by the working group and then >> dropped due to dissent. >>=20 >> - >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-binet-v6ops-cellular-host-reqs-rfc3= 316update >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > - > = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-binet-v6ops-cellular-host-requireme= nts >> - >> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-mobile-device-profile >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 > I think the fairest thing to say is that there were three separate >> consensuses in the discussion: those that supported it (the authors, >> representing a number of 3GPP networks), those that didn't (a set of >> people who also worked in 3GPP), and those that wished we would talk >> about something else. The chairs (Joel and I) eventually suggested >> to the authors that they publish it in the Independent Stream, which >> they did. >=20 > Hi Fred, >=20 > I think that course of action looks reasonable. I think often RFCs = get > this path of independent stream. >=20 > However, I would like to raise a strong doubt about making RFC at IETF > when IETF does not want it to be an RFC. >=20 > I think it is a waste of time from both IETF process participants, and > also from operators redirecting me to that RFC while also telling me = it > has little value other than simply having "IETF" and "3GPP" in its = front > page. >=20 > If it is an individual ambition from authors and Sponsor, then it = could > stay at Internet Draft level - experience shows now Internet Drafts = live > long time even though they are 'expired'. Or it could be published as > other means. >=20 > Alex >=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 From nobody Mon Mar 6 11:50:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 234ED1299BF for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 11:50:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nbd1Pv3tqo2i for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 11:49:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1ED7D1299BE for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 11:49:59 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id A54E86138E for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 20:49:57 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B18F60771; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 20:49:57 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 5D1CE307D; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 20:49:57 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 20:49:57 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Simon Hobson Message-ID: <20170306194957.GT2367@Space.Net> References: <013B7A75-E5F6-4F47-9D92-33114F1781F8@cisco.com> <38FD32ED-C942-40AA-8FC7-365A244AB7C9@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 19:50:00 -0000 Hi, On Fri, Mar 03, 2017 at 04:53:15PM +0000, Simon Hobson wrote: > Where there are multiple routers (eg separate routers provided > by each ISP), then my *assumption* would be that the IPv6 stack > would forward packets to the router which advertised the prefix > containing the IP address the host/service has chosen to use for > the outbound connection. That only works if these routers are actually directly adjacent to the host making the decision. In the more generalized homenet model, routers could be meshed in any ways, and the routers injecting a /48 into "the homenet mesh" could all be talking through an intermediate router to the host - so the host would see a RA with (say) 3x /64 coming from the same router. But this is easily solved by source-dependent routing - "forward packets with a source address from ISP A out via the line to ISP A, and so on for ISP B, C, ...". The source address selection part is much harder, and to my knowlege, still mostly unsolved. 6724 has a list of rules that are not really helping your use case ("multiple ISPs that have different characteristics, and some of them might not even be working right in this moment") - especially, source-address *failover* is not something I've seen work ("I tried source A, and it did not work, so maybe ISP A has a problem reaching target Z. Let's try source address B, via ISP B -> Z"). > In general we would frown upon this setup since it doesn't work well in the IPv4 world - in the general case it means manual configuration on nodes to select the egress router and is inflexible. The homenet architecture puts this nicely on the routers, and that part really works quite well ("built a test setup, liked the result"). Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Mon Mar 6 12:53:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 087E9129507 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 12:53:26 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GUKjMzrL6DhY for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 12:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x22d.google.com (mail-pg0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93B5A1294F1 for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 12:53:23 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id b129so70305889pgc.2 for ; Mon, 06 Mar 2017 12:53:23 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=LAkhfCvkpbFmOergtvsWuwYs8vptKADwE2JZWEvYyY0=; b=RTlltylGCmPyRPpbPQ529+S2u0e3k7eot+cg/qFh4egcBGc+5Kha7H5i7ra3do2Gr7 yVgdf5D4mb+xPwh1StZT/iSziEWWspN0VEriJIRW+OR0RAP8AOOVAK0I14sQp+U/gMYs ycZMuG8dWmPkuOtgCVWxfxvrQNgEA4+MI2q3ayeY8ByLb+YGLOUAqDNuFmDBGttmL4o0 omm93PAUYHADwTYf8aY3m1tAZYOl4H5T5SBjFI2LEhQ9Z2Vt/MA7Ex7FdM3m78gAdYBS oX7ClSYgvbI7Luhq8vWVq8+7unIgZQuApgdVEcMerOtmgYsoLBtKVhcm6kY4N882JS2h WQ0w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=LAkhfCvkpbFmOergtvsWuwYs8vptKADwE2JZWEvYyY0=; b=FF+bLAK9mbZTiMjks9sYP4PEbhWOoHvBZIsgBN8I9oyOZwxTq9WMD9vv4mAeCUU4Gg A5erNpQs3O0drzKpymyZ6H/FRJiK95gF8g8OlM4G48S7/3j9nIbzBX8V7lhH1Q9uzegc wd60wwOt1cB5Ki+Ps1wlyAQTa8YzbQeZlrDhtJerMEf4Cpm4yzdyS8u71Eqvitgxy3+e 5cWGydGj4yKyPmNNzOTAHBFUY72DSaWBOBVhXWAd/Hb+8SK/+yDFnx9hGadhRei4+Xuv zMDGDxYP5padlF6SKgEkZttrE0ue5daKWahCXNaeP51pOPW1De6V4kvRaMWTzQFzkiJq I+vQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lDSvWj26FTUmr2Bxw0jPKC5L0l/a6SYFvfnfACOrXA9zWo0pas5o+OK8QsUFunm2IH X-Received: by 10.99.146.7 with SMTP id o7mr22923301pgd.6.1488833602979; Mon, 06 Mar 2017 12:53:22 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp-100-99-230-134.pao.corp.google.com ([100.99.230.134]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m67sm41299055pfj.32.2017.03.06.12.53.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 06 Mar 2017 12:53:22 -0800 (PST) From: james woodyatt Message-Id: <225F639E-27C1-4408-BC2B-26500929049B@google.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C982BA9C-85A3-4FEB-B399-62170047BFF0" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 12:53:19 -0800 In-Reply-To: To: Philip Homburg References: <2c0ab33b-abbe-caf1-6147-0c583d7f5d61@gmail.com> <453e5b4160514907bc1bb822770e0cac@XCH15-06-11.nw.nos.boeing.com> <5BC57F0E-50FD-4452-853F-A08291C91EB1@google.com> <5B4AFF50-8CA9-4134-8CE2-A383DB5F8BF5@google.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations , 6man WG Subject: Re: [v6ops] A proposal for draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 20:53:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C982BA9C-85A3-4FEB-B399-62170047BFF0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Mar 6, 2017, at 10:47, Philip Homburg = wrote: >=20 > Finally, the 'MUST drop' interpetation is not consistent with the > behavior of FreeBSD, MacOS, and Linux. So I now start to wonder where > the 'MUST drop' interpretation comes from and if anyone ever bothered > to check out the behavior of existing stacks. Looking at the relevant source code for a couple of the latest = BSD-variant kernels, I believe you=E2=80=99re right about the current = behavior on those platforms. My memory of them must be outdated. I think = they used to drop PIO according to a strict interpretation of RFC 4862. = I distinctly remember having to implement it that way in order to pass a = certification test. I believe these implementations will not any longer = pass that test. (One imagines either their owners don=E2=80=99t care, or = the test has been revised to be more lenient.) I am however looking at a commonly used lightweight IP stack that simply = ignores all PIO options unless Prefix Length =3D 128 - IID Length (and = it safely assumes all interface identifiers are length 64 because it = doesn=E2=80=99t support link types with other IID lengths, and it=E2=80=99= s also unsuitable for use in the environments where IETF standards make = exceptions for other IID lengths). This stack was developed entirely = apart from the Linux and KAME efforts, by people who read the fine RFCs = and implemented the simplest lightest-weight thing possible that is = still compliant with the requirements language. That=E2=80=99s important = for people on platforms where every byte of code and stack space is = precious. p1. I get that RFC 4862 has requirements language that annoys some = participants. We are not here revising RFC 4862 however, so that=E2=80=99s= not relevant. p2. The stack I=E2=80=99m using implements SLAAC and-- for completely = defensible reasons=E2=80=94 follows the letter of RFC 4862 requirements. = Its current behavior is compliant with RFC 4291, RFC 4861 and RFC 4862. = It=E2=80=99s not exactly uncommon in the field today, and it=E2=80=99s = not currently broken by the proposed successor to RFC 4291 with its = current language about IID length. p3. I get that people want to hold up promotion of IPv6 to Full Standard = until the successor of RFC 4291 is changed to declare explicitly that = the stack I=E2=80=99m using is in error. My opinion is this is a = procedural matter, not a technical matter. I object to the procedural step being proposed, not the technical = argument. If we MUST declare the stack I=E2=80=99m using to be in error, = then please let=E2=80=99s NOT do it in this draft. Can you not wait = until RFC 4861 and RFC 4862 are next revised? --james woodyatt > --Apple-Mail=_C982BA9C-85A3-4FEB-B399-62170047BFF0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On Mar 6, 2017, at 10:47, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-6@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:

Finally, the 'MUST drop' interpetation is not = consistent with the
behavior of FreeBSD, MacOS, and Linux. So = I now start to wonder where
the 'MUST drop' interpretation = comes from and if anyone ever bothered
to check out the behavior of = existing stacks.

Looking at the relevant source code for = a couple of the latest BSD-variant kernels, I believe you=E2=80=99re = right about the current behavior on those platforms. My memory of them = must be outdated. I think they used to drop PIO according to a strict = interpretation of RFC 4862. I distinctly remember having to implement it = that way in order to pass a certification test. I believe these = implementations will not any longer pass that test. (One imagines either = their owners don=E2=80=99t care, or the test has been revised to be more = lenient.)

I am = however looking at a commonly used lightweight IP stack that simply = ignores all PIO options unless Prefix Length =3D 128 - IID Length (and = it safely assumes all interface identifiers are length 64 because it = doesn=E2=80=99t support link types with other IID lengths, and it=E2=80=99= s also unsuitable for use in the environments where IETF standards make = exceptions for other IID lengths). This stack was developed entirely = apart from the Linux and KAME efforts, by people who read the fine RFCs = and implemented the simplest lightest-weight thing possible that is = still compliant with the requirements language. That=E2=80=99s important = for people on platforms where every byte of code and stack space is = precious.

p1. = I get that RFC 4862 has requirements language that annoys some = participants. We are not here revising RFC 4862 however, so that=E2=80=99s= not relevant.

p2. The stack I=E2=80=99m using implements SLAAC and-- for = completely defensible reasons=E2=80=94 follows the letter of RFC 4862 = requirements. Its current behavior is compliant with RFC 4291, RFC 4861 = and RFC 4862. It=E2=80=99s not exactly uncommon in the field today, and = it=E2=80=99s not currently broken by the proposed successor to RFC 4291 = with its current language about IID length.

p3. I get that people want to hold up = promotion of IPv6 to Full Standard until the successor of RFC 4291 is = changed to declare explicitly that the stack I=E2=80=99m using is in = error. My opinion is this is a procedural matter, not a technical = matter.

I = object to the procedural step being proposed, not the technical = argument. If we MUST declare the stack I=E2=80=99m using to be in error, = then please let=E2=80=99s NOT do it in this draft. Can you not wait = until RFC 4861 and RFC 4862 are next revised?


--james woodyatt <jhw@google.com>



= --Apple-Mail=_C982BA9C-85A3-4FEB-B399-62170047BFF0-- From nobody Mon Mar 6 14:15:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3AAEC1294F3; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 14:15:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.37 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.37 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.229, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0zOoQp_OtJdx; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 14:15:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x233.google.com (mail-qk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B22BF129A4A; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 14:15:37 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id p64so60174281qke.1; Mon, 06 Mar 2017 14:15:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc :content-transfer-encoding; bh=b5fddJlD+/t+qzAZ23iPQxx9wZ0wzni2BIcskk6OAaI=; b=CRvzA6EcNUjweNQoYwN5ty7S25BBjjbQRdDHz3j9XVSc3DbOhC0bxDEujZdH/MwHFB flXztdy0aBx9dW/b7V5eY0w3Ptpwvc4ylgQ6cn3ceBuSaQCLHsGFl2xACEJfKIcdH3mj 3s8JjczWgMBguyCQcXqDr78+Uva6cHlaX+b702uHvNsvFvIKW4IMskfBDhcpHgqlUh16 izN9fm63DzCblgPI9jqCiMKEPxOTGZIC1l7pLN6IPXkOK/XLXTL5EW4PeZkIFFAE2OrK APh2YnCOwqGXfZSM0ODDVnPDXc+t/uM737kbyEyp7IH7n8K8gT7O11klU/eGOFcC81xx PmZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=b5fddJlD+/t+qzAZ23iPQxx9wZ0wzni2BIcskk6OAaI=; b=a3HZ94d0tCR8XfswzRMlAjmIbuWyc41t94PUHQMXa0htByfTXgfsMLgetS1d/sMzx5 ZP504tlhPtXTuYe/BOTKWEacdlWuz639Oc8P1TEKCqwQDFE95gtIJ4wsfpXnj9zB7YTp zpPpZDXRB4qdy6pZfwYo1Jwmdm9oa6x1YQxz2vVRND633xrbQ0EwfZkv8usyJ0CvkNKT oU3BoVKGf7wwlrwd1ZX97LOADNmmUJlGycMdOPYKi3ZLBk5evTWnBl3GqWqbJLWQpMNx EAAYbh3UOECD+Sb5/ds60v+ugMC8gOy8S73gSsBrPP5YS/j9yfv7NugyYsb09AoR4oar SicA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39l2ZbCDH6sWchGwuIBFUGCxMyr16kCjN0IWquWfzZSiH6hppMoMl+ghjR0gG1D6xYQU6Es5jKbd1I6DqQ== X-Received: by 10.55.104.134 with SMTP id d128mr16178894qkc.86.1488838536636; Mon, 06 Mar 2017 14:15:36 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: jinmei.tatuya@gmail.com Received: by 10.237.61.204 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 14:15:36 -0800 (PST) From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 14:15:36 -0800 X-Google-Sender-Auth: -VimxPj8HUHg-uACsYXRZ0FbGpA Message-ID: To: james woodyatt Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations , 6man WG Subject: [v6ops] prefix length ban for RFC4861 (Re: A proposal for draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 22:15:40 -0000 At Mon, 6 Mar 2017 12:53:19 -0800, james woodyatt wrote: > > Finally, the 'MUST drop' interpetation is not consistent with the > > behavior of FreeBSD, MacOS, and Linux. So I now start to wonder where > > the 'MUST drop' interpretation comes from and if anyone ever bothered > > to check out the behavior of existing stacks. > Looking at the relevant source code for a couple of the latest > BSD-variant kernels, I believe you=E2=80=99re right about the current > behavior on those platforms. My memory of them must be outdated. I > think they used to drop PIO according to a strict interpretation of > RFC 4862. I distinctly remember having to implement it that way in BSD variants did NOT ignore PIO for on-link determination simply due to its prefix length value at least at the time of the publication of RFC4862 (actually since way before that RFC). For example, this is FreeBSD's implementation as of Oct 21, 2005, about two years before RFC4862 was published: https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd/blob/c2b19f24a4ba01108e047a35a4a060cbfdf= 28a17/sys/netinet6/nd6_rtr.c see nd6_prelist_add() starting at line 993, and find that it only checks the prefix length for SLAAC (lines from 1258). At this point the on-link determination has been completed without any check on the prefix length (lines 1043-1056). > order to pass a certification test. I believe these implementations > will not any longer pass that test. (One imagines either their > owners don=E2=80=99t care, or the test has been revised to be more lenien= t.) This is quite surprising to me. Do you have any reference to such a certification test that requires the host to ignore PIO with a non-64 prefix length for the purpose of on-link determination (i.e., for RFC4861)? -- JINMEI, Tatuya From nobody Mon Mar 6 14:26:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ECC1129A5B for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 14:26:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y6Vdgk2qwiCf for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 14:26:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x235.google.com (mail-pf0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C7F01294DF for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 14:26:17 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x235.google.com with SMTP id o126so18625447pfb.3 for ; Mon, 06 Mar 2017 14:26:17 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=7BtEy91/9LEM5lrmPSCBTsQHvIGQWxW0+P8j0TVbjDM=; b=EzKwtW5CvoLm4Jkpc+4iy56BNezpbsgLnilRtUoWEChbzr0eMdRQEsdBs+rAf5uFMh ytwuVeMFHpzvCn4OnyfFkAzH4QlFetB7fT+SYG2DLTPJsQLaKbw8ioBD4ZHBckwF3Oj8 bWmTQoZoKkhH3DzTYcohHzITG7pzyKtalq+xcj5UnIy/97KaPePw7IBMkKydQmJoD/Is iT408417KsAJR2/cKRg81UaXjZ/1FYd4YNkrFEElVstVbVd7d7y//iZoQyvDNg8ukxvT umkafvSUfa/JO7MFcKVq9apDimMHFEZrjlChx2uHNuAua8jdfybPAym0usJ5CgAXy/LE ZGsQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=7BtEy91/9LEM5lrmPSCBTsQHvIGQWxW0+P8j0TVbjDM=; b=hbzvIDm6EaJTcqd6Newd/oQYxlym3hxuadwNHnZ4bbeTaOvb7D6RfkW9YmyqmnwTr7 6oEeADDE/2YIdVhw6Xd5CGM6BlxkVJ0ucFhczWtHTu8GuNvMIRpy7tTFky35VxJhYwtu g1pMOpzY91N9/JZdCvRDSaig0PGAS5MSXMwd1sOBhX5J0twDgDx1/sNhFC7l9DwQKCao avcLHXLvfO/zv27N4s7uDKlVBQCvFhst79XWhqE0IE+WxGdDMHUo6snjmVPBekPELFBg TsT49gF+nn3d/G74659aiCU0uTdW8iXjbouJu0DfdC3RT0kn7UqmcK29ggPFLBZdXT7E WezQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lSj5eoZZlE1ApRuytkwgLZqP1Q5rJPFKASShh84XyVysPF94lYmwxw75NJAWDcD32C X-Received: by 10.84.177.36 with SMTP id w33mr30003992plb.105.1488839176674; Mon, 06 Mar 2017 14:26:16 -0800 (PST) Received: from dhcp-100-99-230-134.pao.corp.google.com ([100.99.230.134]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n189sm41415559pfn.108.2017.03.06.14.26.15 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 06 Mar 2017 14:26:16 -0800 (PST) From: james woodyatt Message-Id: <7F00A187-28E5-4D6E-8F24-771EC80AC078@google.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E0D7DD33-9A65-46A3-89CC-953C2F50C6D2" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 14:26:15 -0800 In-Reply-To: To: =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations , 6man WG Subject: Re: [v6ops] prefix length ban for RFC4861 (Re: A proposal for draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 22:26:19 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E0D7DD33-9A65-46A3-89CC-953C2F50C6D2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 On Mar 6, 2017, at 14:15, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 = wrote: >=20 > BSD variants did NOT ignore PIO for on-link determination simply due > to its prefix length value at least at the time of the publication of > RFC4862 (actually since way before that RFC). For example, this is > FreeBSD's implementation as of Oct 21, 2005, about two years before > RFC4862 was published: > = https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd/blob/c2b19f24a4ba01108e047a35a4a060cbfd= f28a17/sys/netinet6/nd6_rtr.c > see nd6_prelist_add() starting at line 993, and find that it only > checks the prefix length for SLAAC (lines from 1258). At this point > the on-link determination has been completed without any check on the > prefix length (lines 1043-1056). Indeed, I am unable to find source code history in FreeBSD, NetBSD or = Darwin consistent with my memory. Perhaps I am mistaken that it was ever = there. >> order to pass a certification test. I believe these implementations >> will not any longer pass that test. (One imagines either their >> owners don=E2=80=99t care, or the test has been revised to be more = lenient.) >=20 > This is quite surprising to me. Do you have any reference to such a > certification test that requires the host to ignore PIO with a non-64 > prefix length for the purpose of on-link determination (i.e., for > RFC4861)? My admittedly questionable memory is that it was a USGv6 Test Program = for SLAAC [Host] Conformance that checked for this behavior in a host = implementation I maintained at the time. As I said, I wouldn=E2=80=99t = be surprised if that test has been revised to be more lenient, but I = remember having to modify the KAME source code to pass the test. Nevertheless, the LwIP stack does what I=E2=80=99m talking about, and = it=E2=80=99s used in a plethora of constrained resource host operating = systems these days. --james woodyatt > --Apple-Mail=_E0D7DD33-9A65-46A3-89CC-953C2F50C6D2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 On Mar 6, 2017, at 14:15, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 = <jinmei@wide.ad.jp> wrote:

BSD variants = did NOT ignore PIO for on-link determination simply due
to = its prefix length value at least at the time of the publication of
RFC4862 (actually since way before that RFC).  For = example, this is
FreeBSD's implementation as of Oct 21, = 2005, about two years before
RFC4862 was published:
https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd/blob/c2b19f24a4ba01108e047a3= 5a4a060cbfdf28a17/sys/netinet6/nd6_rtr.c
see = nd6_prelist_add() starting at line 993, and find that it only
checks the prefix length for SLAAC (lines from 1258). =  At this point
the on-link determination has been = completed without any check on the
prefix length (lines = 1043-1056).

Indeed, I am unable to find source code history in = FreeBSD, NetBSD or Darwin consistent with my memory. Perhaps I am = mistaken that it was ever there.

order to pass a certification test. I believe = these implementations
will not any longer pass that test. = (One imagines either their
owners don=E2=80=99t care, or = the test has been revised to be more lenient.)

This is quite surprising to me. =  Do you have any reference to such a
certification = test that requires the host to ignore PIO with a non-64
prefix length for the purpose of on-link determination (i.e., = for
RFC4861)?

My admittedly questionable memory is that it was a = USGv6 Test Program for SLAAC [Host] Conformance that checked for this = behavior in a host implementation I maintained at the time. As I said, I = wouldn=E2=80=99t be surprised if that test has been revised to be more = lenient, but I remember having to modify the KAME source code to pass = the test.

Nevertheless, the LwIP stack does what I=E2=80=99m talking = about, and it=E2=80=99s used in a plethora of constrained resource host = operating systems these days.


--james woodyatt <jhw@google.com>



= --Apple-Mail=_E0D7DD33-9A65-46A3-89CC-953C2F50C6D2-- From nobody Mon Mar 6 15:45:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1540C1299EF for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 15:45:12 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=iol.unh.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7RfUJGEw_uVY for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 15:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-qk0-x230.google.com (mail-qk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CBAE1294AE for ; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 15:45:10 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-qk0-x230.google.com with SMTP id v125so119290964qkh.2 for ; Mon, 06 Mar 2017 15:45:10 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=iol.unh.edu; s=unh-iol; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=NPEBCO0vyUvZ2jXl+Tt1JJUNUf5TFBIOodWjXYikxmM=; b=dRmFawg9VAUpbBefV5itdjanF6RVj4POcuVlV2tXunZeljErp3Do03JhWv9i7IKJSn 3HUlddZ9T/pb6R5mCFmG4PI5hyWOcqqYd8lFCMiyTM84BpWCw1KYtgKkFc6uZCcOP9I7 /juB20BaOCVwFvdj/fgdWRRBcwqVSttOFsdlA= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=NPEBCO0vyUvZ2jXl+Tt1JJUNUf5TFBIOodWjXYikxmM=; b=bYwI/XFzkULkkvAs7AgPorwF66N8T/g5d1THZ7uNaRLaiwxNwHWC047orYBlB2mzfx pOGcTMlen/GCORyRWVvhA0kEgx6dbej+n8blCHjApu2lJtxAuugcdHwkKGkFksrMQRji izI2tlF10HUSoedyaW6N2fpK88MKjL7x0EXP/6NKAdGBEJSRm4dJJQGcvRucb3AFDSZZ NO3Lb/xxiuMCJSzXC5UrHrHdolYPUR0+Tj5wRgh3nAtchkTvqrJ+FlaSJyJCSVjPy6tV F5xAl8iut8gkbe6kDsnGdw3Db46b2v+3leGg3qI0jFCazQQL3cnExLv1zWD0IgaVc0Cy nGSw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39mRAnvdNU8OCqzVmazXH0z36txuXW4aojKCn8rsb5eyPbkg5Wh0/gsNk3IUxLZfWDQmORmZ1fRFW/JrPOpG X-Received: by 10.237.36.172 with SMTP id t41mr17647032qtc.142.1488843909134; Mon, 06 Mar 2017 15:45:09 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.200.37.225 with HTTP; Mon, 6 Mar 2017 15:45:08 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <7F00A187-28E5-4D6E-8F24-771EC80AC078@google.com> References: <7F00A187-28E5-4D6E-8F24-771EC80AC078@google.com> From: Timothy Winters Date: Mon, 6 Mar 2017 18:45:08 -0500 Message-ID: To: james woodyatt Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f386454b63e054a187c57 Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations , 6man WG , =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Subject: Re: [v6ops] prefix length ban for RFC4861 (Re: A proposal for draft-ietf-6man-rfc4291bis-07) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 06 Mar 2017 23:45:12 -0000 --001a113f386454b63e054a187c57 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The USGv6 and IPv6 Ready Logo have the same test for the PIO option with a prefix length larger then 64. It's test 2.2.19 in the IPv6 Core Test Specification . It checks that a device is capable of determining the on-link prefix with a length set to 96. All IPv6 Ready Logo/USGv6 Basic devices support this properly. ~Tim On Mon, Mar 6, 2017 at 5:26 PM, james woodyatt wrote: > On Mar 6, 2017, at 14:15, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 wrote: > > > BSD variants did NOT ignore PIO for on-link determination simply due > to its prefix length value at least at the time of the publication of > RFC4862 (actually since way before that RFC). For example, this is > FreeBSD's implementation as of Oct 21, 2005, about two years before > RFC4862 was published: > https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd/blob/c2b19f24a4ba01108e047a35a4a060 > cbfdf28a17/sys/netinet6/nd6_rtr.c > see nd6_prelist_add() starting at line 993, and find that it only > checks the prefix length for SLAAC (lines from 1258). At this point > the on-link determination has been completed without any check on the > prefix length (lines 1043-1056). > > > Indeed, I am unable to find source code history in FreeBSD, NetBSD or > Darwin consistent with my memory. Perhaps I am mistaken that it was ever > there. > > order to pass a certification test. I believe these implementations > will not any longer pass that test. (One imagines either their > owners don=E2=80=99t care, or the test has been revised to be more lenien= t.) > > > This is quite surprising to me. Do you have any reference to such a > certification test that requires the host to ignore PIO with a non-64 > prefix length for the purpose of on-link determination (i.e., for > RFC4861)? > > > My admittedly questionable memory is that it was a USGv6 Test Program for > SLAAC [Host] Conformance that checked for this behavior in a host > implementation I maintained at the time. As I said, I wouldn=E2=80=99t be= surprised > if that test has been revised to be more lenient, but I remember having t= o > modify the KAME source code to pass the test. > > Nevertheless, the LwIP stack does what I=E2=80=99m talking about, and it= =E2=80=99s used in > a plethora of constrained resource host operating systems these days. > > > --james woodyatt > > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > IETF IPv6 working group mailing list > ipv6@ietf.org > Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6 > -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --=20 Now offering testing for SDN applications and controllers in our SDN switch test bed. Learn more today http://bit.ly/SDN_IOLPR --001a113f386454b63e054a187c57 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The USGv6 and IPv6 Ready Logo have the same test for the P= IO option with a prefix length larger then 64.

It's = test 2.2.19 in the IPv6 Core Test Specification.=C2=A0

=
It checks that a device is capable of determining the on-link prefix w= ith a length set to 96. =C2=A0 All IPv6 Ready Logo/USGv6 Basic devices supp= ort this properly. =C2=A0=C2=A0

~Tim

On Mon, Mar 6, 2017= at 5:26 PM, james woodyatt <jhw@google.com> wrote:
On Mar 6, 2017, at 14:15, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei@wide.ad.jp> w= rote:

B= SD variants did NOT ignore PIO for on-link determination simply due
to i= ts prefix length value at least at the time of the publication of
RFC486= 2 (actually since way before that RFC).=C2=A0 For example, this is
FreeB= SD's implementation as of Oct 21, 2005, about two years before
RFC48= 62 was published:
https://github.com/freebsd/freebsd/blob/c2b19f24a4ba01108e04= 7a35a4a060cbfdf28a17/sys/netinet6/nd6_rtr.c
see nd6_prelis= t_add() starting at line 993, and find that it only
checks the prefix le= ngth for SLAAC (lines from 1258).=C2=A0 At this point
the on-link determ= ination has been completed without any check on the
prefix length (lines= 1043-1056).

Indeed,= I am unable to find source code history in FreeBSD, NetBSD or Darwin consi= stent with my memory. Perhaps I am mistaken that it was ever there.

order to pass a certification test. I believe these implementationswill not any longer pass that test. (One imagines either their
owners = don=E2=80=99t care, or the test has been revised to be more lenient.)

This is quite surprising to me.=C2=A0 Do you have any refere= nce to such a
certification test that requires the host to ignore PIO wi= th a non-64
prefix length for the purpose of on-link determination (i.e.= , for
RFC4861)?

My adm= ittedly questionable memory is that it was a USGv6 Test Program for SLAAC [= Host] Conformance that checked for this behavior in a host implementation I= maintained at the time. As I said, I wouldn=E2=80=99t be surprised if that= test has been revised to be more lenient, but I remember having to modify = the KAME source code to pass the test.

Nevertheles= s, the LwIP stack does what I=E2=80=99m talking about, and it=E2=80=99s use= d in a plethora of constrained resource host operating systems these days.<= /div>


--james woodyatt <jhw@google.com>




--------------------------------------------------------= ------------
IETF IPv6 working group mailing list
ipv6@ietf.org
Administrative Requests: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
-----------------------------------------------------------------= ---




--
=

Now offering testing for SDN ap= plications and controllers in our SDN switch test bed.=C2=A0Learn more today http://bit.ly/SDN_IOLPR=

--001a113f386454b63e054a187c57-- From nobody Tue Mar 7 01:26:56 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19B1312940A for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 01:26:53 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FPEE9R1ySqZG for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 01:26:51 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (magpiehouse.plus.com [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F246129421 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 01:26:50 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from [192.168.137.111] (unknown [192.168.137.111]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F418D1BC37 for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 08:08:05 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: <20170306194957.GT2367@Space.Net> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 08:07:59 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <013B7A75-E5F6-4F47-9D92-33114F1781F8@cisco.com> <38FD32ED-C942-40AA-8FC7-365A244AB7C9@gmail.com> <20170306194957.GT2367@Space.Net> To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Question on multi-homed nodes and address/route selection X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 09:26:53 -0000 Gert Doering wrote: > But this is easily solved by source-dependent routing - "forward = packets > with a source address from ISP A out via the line to ISP A, and so on > for ISP B, C, ...". Indeed, and I already have that in place for IPv4 at work (but using NAT = and RFC1918 addressing). I've limited IPv6 running as management don't = seem to have realised it exists yet ! > The source address selection part is much harder, and to my knowlege, > still mostly unsolved. That makes sense - the hard bit is still unsolved :-( > 6724 has a list of rules that are not really > helping your use case ("multiple ISPs that have different = characteristics, > and some of them might not even be working right in this moment") -=20 > especially, source-address *failover* is not something I've seen work > ("I tried source A, and it did not work, so maybe ISP A has a problem > reaching target Z. Let's try source address B, via ISP B -> Z"). Well that's an interesting approach. I suppose that if a router has rules about what traffic is allowed via = each upstream connection, then it could reject attempts on the other = connection(s). So that becomes "tried source address A, got ICMP = back, lets try B" which given the speed of having an ICMP = packet back vs the connection timing out might not have too much = overhead/delay attached to it. But for the time being, it looks very much like it's going to require = manual setting of rules for each process (eg binding services to = specific addresses) with all the implications that has for handling = changes in connectivity. 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RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2LJ29UaEDWip for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 07:44:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5534A12961D for ; Tue, 7 Mar 2017 07:43:53 -0800 (PST) Received: from mbp-4.local ([172.58.94.196]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v27FhUbb097709 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 7 Mar 2017 15:43:51 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) X-Authentication-Warning: nagasaki.bogus.com: Host [172.58.94.196] claimed to be mbp-4.local To: Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations References: <11711B7F-095E-4B49-98AD-4F5D49A0AE94@gmail.com> From: joel jaeggli Message-ID: <2ef9ae7e-3235-dafd-47c1-6474dcd40022@bogus.com> Date: Tue, 7 Mar 2017 07:43:26 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <11711B7F-095E-4B49-98AD-4F5D49A0AE94@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="eBkO2otFdCLQVSav4TP1wWrdnsoBJp630" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] OT: Requesting information/experience X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 07 Mar 2017 15:44:25 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --eBkO2otFdCLQVSav4TP1wWrdnsoBJp630 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="o4vsMVWwpANHixwXUgguj02jO2ott9igJ"; protected-headers="v1" From: joel jaeggli To: Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations Message-ID: <2ef9ae7e-3235-dafd-47c1-6474dcd40022@bogus.com> Subject: Re: [v6ops] OT: Requesting information/experience References: <11711B7F-095E-4B49-98AD-4F5D49A0AE94@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <11711B7F-095E-4B49-98AD-4F5D49A0AE94@gmail.com> --o4vsMVWwpANHixwXUgguj02jO2ott9igJ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/2/17 9:40 AM, Fred Baker wrote: > ISOC has asked me to put together a report for them to publish in June > regarding the state of IPv6 deployment. I'd appreciate any help folks > on this list can give me, but I must ask that you reply privately, as > it is off-topic. I'll include some notes ISOC gave me about the > intended report, so you can see the objective and the kind of > information I'm looking for. This sounds like a fairly worthwhile activity, I think a key distinction compared to attempting something similar under the ruberic of v6ops other than timelilyness is a lack of need to stake out a consensus position WRT matters of opinion. >> >> *Project Overview* >> >> The State of IPv6 Deployment Report project aims to produce a >> thorough, well-presented and impactful report on the state of IPv6 >> deployment in time for the anniversary of World IPv6 Launch on June >> 6^th , 2017. >> >> =20 >> >> *Project Goals* >> >> The goals of the project are as follows: >> >> =B7 To document the current state of IPv6 deployment, as thoroughly >> and objectively as possible >> >> =B7 To provide a =92one-stop-shop=92 for someone interested in >> understanding the state of IPv6 deployment progress in mid-2017 >> >> =B7 To stimulate further deployment: "If you think IPv6 isn't >> happening and that you don't need to act, here's how wrong you are." >> it strikes me a likely that the pool of doubters is not likely to be swayed out of their positions on the rogers curve by a paper. market signals that constrain future choices on the other hand do. >> >> =B7 To pull together into one place all the various IPv6 deployment >> statistics that are scattered across the Internet >> >> =B7 To provide a reference point and baseline for future reports so >> that we can chart growth in IPv6 deployment in the months and years ah= ead >> >> =B7 To document some of the innovations that are happening as well as= >> some of the challenges >> I personally don't value innovation as much as stability with respect to base specifications. if it means distilling out the pieces w find hard to or don't use or which don't offer the utility that was assumed great, a key innovation is shedding the things you don't actually need. >> =B7 To identify and discuss the gaps in IPv6 deployment: where are th= e >> pockets of non-deployment? >> >> =20 >> >> *Audiences* >> >> The report has two primary audiences as follows: >> >> =B7 Executive Summary: Targeted at decision makers (business and >> policy) wanting to get a quick feel for the state of IPv6 deployment >> as it might impact their business and what they should do/think about >> it. This section of the report will also help technology journalists >> writing stories about IPv6. >> >> =B7 Body of the report: Targeted at engineers interested in a >> comprehensive picture of the state of IPv6 deployment, including some >> projections, recommendations and pointers to further resources. >> > > Much of the content will point to existing reports and content (and if > you have favorite content to point to, please share), but hopefully > pull it together in a way that makes the intended points. Specific > content that folks here may be able to give me or point me to include > operator case studies (timeline, what you did, what worked, what > didn't), measurement methodologies (what was measured and how it was > measured), specifics if they can be divulged (traffic ratios, customer > numbers, ratios for dual-stacked customers), regional differences, > specific applications (DNS, Email, web, etc), services (cloud, > hosting, mail, geolocation, security, etc), IoT reality, ongoing > incentives and challenges, and so on. the existance and feasibility of single-stacked edges is probably interesting. I hear that a fair amount when dealing with future mobile or stb/cpe upgrade cycles. > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --o4vsMVWwpANHixwXUgguj02jO2ott9igJ-- --eBkO2otFdCLQVSav4TP1wWrdnsoBJp630 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAli+1R8ACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrJo5wCaAy7aFtL/SkCgR7KBbRzgC8G6 35gAn09AMGM4dkU8EkJar5D/c8FzUMPF =ihcz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --eBkO2otFdCLQVSav4TP1wWrdnsoBJp630-- From nobody Wed Mar 8 01:36:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86E60129459 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 01:36:18 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new 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[184.191.158.59]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 10sm7659200pfs.113.2017.03.08.11.20.24 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 08 Mar 2017 11:20:25 -0800 (PST) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_4B0358C6-E809-44E8-B4C3-B5FEB510F4CF" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Message-Id: <4AAC6FDE-9307-46A0-A380-759075FD2D3D@gmail.com> References: To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 11:20:28 -0800 X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Fwd: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 19:20:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_4B0358C6-E809-44E8-B4C3-B5FEB510F4CF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii The chairs have received this request, and (surprise) are in the process = of planning our agenda. Do folks want to discuss it? > Begin forwarded message: >=20 > From: David Schinazi > Subject: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request > Date: March 8, 2017 at 10:50:53 AM PST > To: fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com, lee@asgard.org, Ron Bonica = > Cc: v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, Tommy Pauly >=20 > Hi v6ops chairs, >=20 > Tommy Pauly and myself have written up what we've learned > in the past few years maintaining and improving Apple's Happy Eyeballs = stack, > and submitted it as draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update. > We'd like the opportunity to present this at the v6ops session in = Chicago. >=20 > I think this would be a 15 minute presentation (including questions), > with the title "An Update to Happy Eyeballs". Would that be possible? >=20 > Full draft available here: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update = >=20 > Thanks! > David Schinazi --Apple-Mail=_4B0358C6-E809-44E8-B4C3-B5FEB510F4CF Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii The chairs have received this request, and (surprise) are in = the process of planning our agenda. Do folks want to discuss it?

Begin forwarded message:

From: = David Schinazi <dschinazi@apple.com>
Subject: = IETF 98 v6ops = agenda request
Date: March 8, 2017 at 10:50:53 AM PST
To: = fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com, lee@asgard.org, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net>
Cc: v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>

Hi v6ops chairs,

Tommy Pauly and myself have written up what we've = learned
in the past few years maintaining and = improving Apple's Happy Eyeballs stack,
and = submitted it as draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update.
We'd like the opportunity to present this at the v6ops = session in Chicago.

I think this would be a 15 minute presentation (including = questions),
with the title "An Update to Happy = Eyeballs". Would that be possible?

Full draft available here:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-up= date

Thanks!
David = Schinazi

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Wed, 8 Mar 2017 11:25:29 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11973e12-62fd39a000005e68-f6-58c05aa94b1a Received: from nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01 (nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01.apple.com [17.151.62.64]) by relay5.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 91.B4.06491.8AA50C85; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 11:25:28 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_efvOt9d9a2dgYgjGI/SlHQ)" Received: from [17.153.44.18] (unknown [17.153.44.18]) by nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170210 64bit (built Feb 10 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0OMI00CF5GMGNI30@nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01.apple.com> for v6ops@ietf.org; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 11:25:28 -0800 (PST) Sender: dschinazi@apple.com From: David Schinazi Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 11:25:29 -0800 References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: IPv6 Operations Message-id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAYobsy6kCEweMvnBanj+1ldmD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxpyt/awFk50qHl+5zt7AuMGqi5GTQ0LARGL5+w9sILaQwF5G iSvd/F2MHGDxUzscuxi5gMLHGCU6Nr5lAqnhFRCU+DH5HguIzSwQJvF27UNmiKJNTBIfzh1h BEkIC0hLdF24ywoyiE1AS+LAGiMQU1hARaL/vydIBYuAqsTEM69ZIdb6SMw6M4EdYqSSxOFb K8DOEQEqn3LmPhvEWhuJZQsvsEGcLCvx6flPdpC1EgJr2CS61nQxTmAUnIXkvFlIzoOwtSS+ P2oFinMA2fISB8/LQoQ1JZ7d+8QOYWtLPHl3gXUBI9sqRqHcxMwc3cw8E73EgoKcVL3k/NxN jKDAnm4ntIPx1CqrQ4wCHIxKPLwCwgcihFgTy4orcw8xSnOwKInz3s7ZHyEkkJ5YkpqdmlqQ WhRfVJqTWnyIkYmDU6qBMfQWS7/67fiZxQzJmWbaGYXX3Y4xzVuheO9WoEHgTLn6JMMrYkY7 dZdOfbCn/ztP2uylrk+bflnmpbxK0dW1Ufz59Ezged9dpyNMZvSXdxsuu/EmecI3reOfNByU D9/1Ocqnqa8p/1AiqYcrpHufsdm53fz6346kTzCZsNI4Y/aPw8IhZWaWSizFGYmGWsxFxYkA nCcNzE0CAAA= X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrKIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiON3OQXdF1IEIg9Z3lhanj+1ldmD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxpyt/awFk50qHl+5zt7AuMGqi5GDQ0LAROLUDscuRi4OIYFj jBIdG98ydTFycvAKCEr8mHyPBcRmFgiTeLv2ITNE0SYmiQ/njjCCJIQFpCW6LtxlBRnEJqAl cWCNEYgpLKAi0f/fE6SCRUBVYuKZ16wgtpCAj8SsMxPYIUYqSRy+tYINxBYBKp9y5j4bxFob iWULL4DZEgKyEp+e/2SfwMg3C8lFs5BcBGFrSXx/1AoU5wCy5SUOnpeFCGtKPLv3iR3C1pZ4 8u4C6wJGtlWMAkWpOYmVpnqJBQU5qXrJ+bmbGEGh2FAYsYPx/zKrQ4wCHIxKPLwCwgcihFgT y4orcw8xSnAwK4nw3vIBCvGmJFZWpRblxxeV5qQWH2KcyAj05ERmKdHkfGCk5JXEG5qYGJgY G5sZG5ubmNNSWEmcl3XZ3gghgfTEktTs1NSC1CKYo5g4OKUaGHvmTudK4axqK9t98pTuolXG 6+WK/XyVIzfHyWYvbcyw/LKWvWn3wVQl9+e6H6fp1F9NX5Qu+Efzls6SCRt+rvmtccTQtSxa PWfdzV8vpINEOZIVqnOWSTgtsxK5mWdy+A4ja1focoNzaZkidZwM/Se4dYO8WxjEftpk3GPb ffjgfkHhutxyJZbijERDLeai4kQAQnig5bgCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 19:25:30 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_efvOt9d9a2dgYgjGI/SlHQ) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi v6ops, Tommy Pauly and myself have written up what we've learned in the past few years maintaining and improving Apple's Happy Eyeballs stack, and submitted it as draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update. You'd love to hear your feedback! Thanks, David Schinazi > Begin forwarded message: > > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-00.txt > Date: March 8, 2017 at 10:43:20 PST > To: Tommy Pauly , David Schinazi > > > A new version of I-D, draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by David Schinazi and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update > Revision: 00 > Title: An Update to Happy Eyeballs > Document date: 2017-03-08 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 7 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-00 > > > Abstract: > "Happy Eyeballs" (RFC6555) is the name for a technique of reducing > user-visible delays on dual-stack hosts. Since one address family > (IPv4 or IPv6) may be blocked, broken, or sub-optimal on a network, > clients that attempt connections for both address families in > parallel have a higher chance of establishing a connection sooner. > Now that this approach has been deployed at scale and measured for > several years, the algorithm specification can be refined to improve > its reliability and generalization. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > --Boundary_(ID_efvOt9d9a2dgYgjGI/SlHQ) Content-type: text/html; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi v6ops,

Tommy Pauly and myself have written up what = we've learned
in the past few years maintaining and = improving Apple's Happy Eyeballs stack,
and = submitted it as draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update.

You'd love to hear your = feedback!

Thanks,
David Schinazi


Begin forwarded message:

From: = internet-drafts@ietf.org
Subject: = New Version = Notification for draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-00.txt
Date: = March 8, 2017 at 10:43:20 = PST
To: = Tommy Pauly <tpauly@apple.com>, = David Schinazi <dschinazi@apple.com>


A new version = of I-D, draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-00.txt
has = been successfully submitted by David Schinazi and posted to the
IETF repository.

Name: = draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update
Revision: 00
Title: An Update = to Happy Eyeballs
Document date: = 2017-03-08
Group: Individual Submission
Pages:= = 7
URL: =            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-ey= eballs-update-00.txt
Status: =         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyebal= ls-update/
Htmlized: =       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-up= date-00


Abstract:
  "Happy Eyeballs" (RFC6555) is the name for a = technique of reducing
  user-visible delays on = dual-stack hosts.  Since one address family
=   (IPv4 or IPv6) may be blocked, broken, or sub-optimal on a = network,
  clients that attempt connections for = both address families in
  parallel have a = higher chance of establishing a connection sooner.
=   Now that this approach has been deployed at scale and = measured for
  several years, the algorithm = specification can be refined to improve
  its = reliability and generalization.




Please note that it may take a = couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the = htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

The IETF Secretariat


= --Boundary_(ID_efvOt9d9a2dgYgjGI/SlHQ)-- From nobody Wed Mar 8 12:29:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86F031295D2 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 12:29:06 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vfh_a0_NoHrI for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 12:29:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 779BC129420 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 12:29:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1489004937; x=1489609737; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=lZ0XKlcm6fkIHvmT7Mii3ol/t DFwRZrB+lzx8xg7v9Q=; b=NZTNVpsyiXH/PV++p5QNEj5Y9PxnQ+jr035RZA61q QOZd8v79gDsEOdE9e8UgGmVfhwN2MMNLP0kWll4ZYS4Y+FcpKkyFCAz7AkvkRom0 Rs8D2JTLDyQIuHcuwlUOPNNRWGqewC4mQwwOGbx5+u6/1aafi2B64rdbKHu1CJ+L i0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=Lxn2N6KotnoCAyDy9dTqAxxRX6TCS3qzfo1T7BPq+alVy5g0irxkya30Bzuq lKqA3U2fPJMbNgeFZDhqHrz2I2EnAOoi+jNsSo91xtMWwTssk9G32Gts9 Iy30QSx00ifTDgl3BtLm05OJKYhIe9f/+8ZzhJCNa8JvORnm+9yWw8=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 08 Mar 2017 21:28:57 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 08 Mar 2017 21:28:52 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005380747.msg for ; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 21:28:51 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:170308:md50005380747::9qJyWpAdD+Apr/dO:0000Kmni X-Return-Path: prvs=1240a15ed2=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1f.0.170216 Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 21:28:49 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Message-ID: <241F735D-EA14-4294-9435-2A74CDB68419@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Fwd: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request References: <4AAC6FDE-9307-46A0-A380-759075FD2D3D@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4AAC6FDE-9307-46A0-A380-759075FD2D3D@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Fwd: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 20:29:06 -0000 I think we should. Actually, I wondered several times if we should start working on =E2=80=9Cr= etiring=E2=80=9D HE. Reason for that. Is hiding IPv6 network problems. Many times, operators don= =E2=80=99t realize that something failed with IPv6 because it falls back to= IPv4. If IPv4 fails, we don=E2=80=99t have such mechanism, right? I fully understand the reason why HE was developed, but the situation is no= t the same, and the only way for operators and data centers to realize it n= ow, is to force a customer complain. Maybe updating the document and explicitly saying that HE is updated with t= his document AND will be deprecated, let=E2=80=99s say at the end of 2017, = could be a nice deal. Regards, Jordi =20 -----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Fred Baker Responder a: Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 8 de marzo de 2017, 20:20 Para: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Asunto: [v6ops] Fwd: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request The chairs have received this request, and (surprise) are in the proces= s of planning our agenda. Do folks want to discuss it? =20 =20 Begin forwarded message: =20 From: David Schinazi =20 Subject: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request =20 Date: March 8, 2017 at 10:50:53 AM PST =20 To: fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com, lee@asgard.org, Ron Bonica =20 Cc: v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, Tommy Pauly =20 =20 Hi v6ops chairs, =20 Tommy Pauly and myself have written up what we've learned in the past few years maintaining and improving Apple's Happy Eyeballs = stack, and submitted it as draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update. We'd like the opportunity to present this at the v6ops session in Chica= go. =20 I think this would be a 15 minute presentation (including questions), with the title "An Update to Happy Eyeballs". Would that be possible? =20 Full draft available here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update =20 Thanks! David Schinazi =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Wed Mar 8 12:42:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F01DB129531 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 12:42:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qyP4xqUe-j2O for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 12:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x236.google.com (mail-pf0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE04D1294FB for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 12:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x236.google.com with SMTP id o126so19218241pfb.3 for ; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 12:42:18 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=RwODeRKAbhEQBGKoLL6h1y+A7PhgBwjVTCahiaxjUvo=; b=YDp2JT1lQg5Pm5PVOHVerfd0rsak36bmvnwJ5a07Y5Q9lpT3lqmEAt3KrXON6rabK1 AggnJXcxW7FGCgI1VnWPdeRdJ0YltkvTbp4N0oaZwrpcy8DvPll8wkmEbrjU6vv/70tF s8WXAmXlgOiQ8/gVx9ScYdAJeEqLe7a61+5qRxNjtsFlV+t+X/u95zXlHRMcKszbJXFA QG3h4WxiZz+shNHnjqnEUe8NSogx5iuzxwP1MSuOu2XHevDU7tPehpY9f+QFF21K2gOe 7CBQSd2yT22mKY9mB3Iu9YeQQ1BxjOra+Pb6H2aVbfLLKPtG7Cs7GTMGWH/DNmqOnm8b wMjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=RwODeRKAbhEQBGKoLL6h1y+A7PhgBwjVTCahiaxjUvo=; b=sZPjsJ7DwZkH6UMzaDcpYjLFIp8ear/hqPe0Uj2lP04k6mk3VdNane9t9EAh8JzKLH +sIdEzoARzTaF6Q3IUy6zS63pym55GrzMlK+zRGIqBZ5AK9KWOsluEYoAuEuJlWu1w+E YgEcMBN/WkhP37dUIalv7p/cSurfYsF4HftxlemibSL1Vpl6xoav2ASlbJmMop0X0s/i /ewS/uoPsEEbYainUKnaOhZVQtjIVxt+J8Enq7KVuhNwxjCj8dO+Nn7Hcp8qEoyhYXWh mo+LlQ0jqB89zl1E910lLlq6uCqRmBdw5j80Gip7/j8nSy+O84e/9FL35fccKxy9lHIg qV1g== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39nrFrredxAMvBaVahOfw9riGsdoGoECPY3xk5a+BhIe+OtL+jnnefYkoRGyHjUWnQ== X-Received: by 10.84.143.1 with SMTP id 1mr11355368ply.81.1489005738498; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 12:42:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (wsip-184-191-158-59.sd.sd.cox.net. [184.191.158.59]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p6sm7911915pgn.40.2017.03.08.12.42.17 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 08 Mar 2017 12:42:17 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <241F735D-EA14-4294-9435-2A74CDB68419@consulintel.es> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 12:42:16 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8AEB9A29-7B2C-4A83-9725-D2CF9F372FC0@gmail.com> References: <4AAC6FDE-9307-46A0-A380-759075FD2D3D@gmail.com> <241F735D-EA14-4294-9435-2A74CDB68419@consulintel.es> To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF 98 v6ops agenda request X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 20:42:20 -0000 On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:28 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ = wrote: > operators don=E2=80=99t realize that something failed with IPv6 = because it falls back to IPv4. >=20 > If IPv4 fails, we don=E2=80=99t have such mechanism, right? Actually, they fail over mutually. And by the same mechanism, if a = device has two interfaces and therefore two addresses, or two addresses = on the same interface (note that I didn't say whether that was IPv4 or = IPv6), and one address stops working (pick a reason), it selects the = working address and all that comes with it.= From nobody Wed Mar 8 12:56:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3E667129404 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 12:56:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p7yEhZyq6Uub for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 12:55:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B1A0128E19 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 12:55:58 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4EC26617D9 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 21:55:56 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03FB961385; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 21:55:56 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 00F7A3634; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 21:55:56 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 21:55:55 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Fred Baker Message-ID: <20170308205555.GE2367@Space.Net> References: <4AAC6FDE-9307-46A0-A380-759075FD2D3D@gmail.com> <241F735D-EA14-4294-9435-2A74CDB68419@consulintel.es> <8AEB9A29-7B2C-4A83-9725-D2CF9F372FC0@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8AEB9A29-7B2C-4A83-9725-D2CF9F372FC0@gmail.com> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF 98 v6ops agenda request X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 20:56:00 -0000 Hi, On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 12:42:16PM -0800, Fred Baker wrote: > Actually, they fail over mutually. And by the same mechanism, if > a device has two interfaces and therefore two addresses, or two > addresses on the same interface (note that I didn't say whether > that was IPv4 or IPv6), and one address stops working (pick a > reason), it selects the working address and all that comes with it. It does? For two v6 addresses with both global scope? Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Wed Mar 8 13:05:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF1F81294AF for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:05:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.468 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.468 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, HTTPS_HTTP_MISMATCH=1.989, KHOP_DYNAMIC=1.08, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 42Xeky-lK31U for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4CF71289C4 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:05:37 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049297.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049297.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v28Ku2ig007253; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 16:05:35 -0500 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049297.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 292rt7snk7-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 08 Mar 2017 16:05:34 -0500 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v28L5W4s008070; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 16:05:33 -0500 Received: from alpi133.aldc.att.com (alpi133.aldc.att.com [130.8.217.3]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v28L5RMP007936 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 8 Mar 2017 16:05:28 -0500 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAD.ITServices.sbc.com (GAALPA1MSGHUBAD.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.218.153]) by alpi133.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor); Wed, 8 Mar 2017 21:05:22 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.76]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAD.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 16:05:21 -0500 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Fwd: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request Thread-Index: AQHSmEEWeBPLnkXC+U2RW+nSJ0immaGLbUtA Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 21:05:20 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DADC3C2@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <4AAC6FDE-9307-46A0-A380-759075FD2D3D@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4AAC6FDE-9307-46A0-A380-759075FD2D3D@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.239.213] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DADC3C2GAALPA1MSGUSRBF_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-08_16:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703080162 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Fwd: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 21:05:38 -0000 --_000_2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DADC3C2GAALPA1MSGUSRBF_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes. I think HE has proven incredibly valuable and will continue to be need= ed - not just for selecting between IPv4 and IPv6, but also for selecting f= rom among multiple IPv6 interfaces. Increased understanding and improvement= s are a good thing. Barbara From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 2:20 PM To: v6ops@ietf.org WG Subject: [v6ops] Fwd: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request The chairs have received this request, and (surprise) are in the process of= planning our agenda. Do folks want to discuss it? Begin forwarded message: From: David Schinazi > Subject: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request Date: March 8, 2017 at 10:50:53 AM PST To: fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com, lee@asgard.o= rg, Ron Bonica > Cc: v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, Tommy Pauly > Hi v6ops chairs, Tommy Pauly and myself have written up what we've learned in the past few years maintaining and improving Apple's Happy Eyeballs stac= k, and submitted it as draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update. We'd like the opportunity to present this at the v6ops session in Chicago. I think this would be a 15 minute presentation (including questions), with the title "An Update to Happy Eyeballs". Would that be possible? Full draft available here: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update Thanks! David Schinazi --_000_2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DADC3C2GAALPA1MSGUSRBF_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes. I think HE has proven incredibly valuable and = will continue to be needed – not just for selecting between IPv4 and = IPv6, but also for selecting from among multiple IPv6 interfaces. Increased understanding and improvements are a good thing.

Barbara

 

From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ie= tf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 2:20 PM
To: v6ops@ietf.org WG <v6ops@ietf.org>
Subject: [v6ops] Fwd: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request=

 

The chairs have received this request, and (surprise= ) are in the process of planning our agenda. Do folks want to discuss it?



Begin forwarded message:

 

From: David Schi= nazi <dschinazi@apple.com>=

Subject: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request

Date: March 8, 2= 017 at 10:50:53 AM PST

Cc: v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, Tommy Pauly <<= a href=3D"mailto:tpauly@apple.com">tpauly@apple.com>

 

Hi v6ops chairs,

 

Tommy Pauly and myself have written up what we've le= arned

in the past few years maintaining and improving Appl= e's Happy Eyeballs stack,

and submitted it as draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs= -update.

We'd like the opportunity to present this at the v6o= ps session in Chicago.

 

I think this would be a 15 minute presentation (incl= uding questions),

with the title "An Update to Happy Eyeballs&quo= t;. Would that be possible?

 

Full draft available here:

 

Thanks!

David Schinazi

 

--_000_2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DADC3C2GAALPA1MSGUSRBF_-- From nobody Wed Mar 8 13:16:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48C5D129495 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:16:11 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, KHOP_DYNAMIC=1.08, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDGm0ZVBaITF for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:16:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6B71127735 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:16:10 -0800 (PST) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049462.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v28LFAwa005635; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 16:16:06 -0500 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 292rk9ja83-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 08 Mar 2017 16:16:06 -0500 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v28LG6YC020540; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 16:16:06 -0500 Received: from alpi131.aldc.att.com (alpi131.aldc.att.com [130.8.218.69]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v28LFu5W020377 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 8 Mar 2017 16:15:57 -0500 Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAE.ITServices.sbc.com (GAALPA1MSGHUBAE.itservices.sbc.com [130.8.218.154]) by alpi131.aldc.att.com (RSA Interceptor); Wed, 8 Mar 2017 21:15:48 GMT Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.76]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAE.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.154]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 16:15:48 -0500 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: Gert Doering , Fred Baker Thread-Topic: [v6ops] IETF 98 v6ops agenda request Thread-Index: AQHSmEyDgmlQBUtctUu8Kc3BUcKvaKGLv/qA//+wPBA= Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 21:15:47 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DADC470@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <4AAC6FDE-9307-46A0-A380-759075FD2D3D@gmail.com> <241F735D-EA14-4294-9435-2A74CDB68419@consulintel.es> <8AEB9A29-7B2C-4A83-9725-D2CF9F372FC0@gmail.com> <20170308205555.GE2367@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20170308205555.GE2367@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.70.239.213] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-RSA-Inspected: yes X-RSA-Classifications: public X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-08_16:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703080165 Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF 98 v6ops agenda request X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 21:16:11 -0000 > On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 12:42:16PM -0800, Fred Baker wrote: > > Actually, they fail over mutually. And by the same mechanism, if a > > device has two interfaces and therefore two addresses, or two > > addresses on the same interface (note that I didn't say whether that > > was IPv4 or IPv6), and one address stops working (pick a reason), it > > selects the working address and all that comes with it. >=20 > It does? For two v6 addresses with both global scope? If current HE algorithms aren't able to select from among multiple globally= scoped IPv6 addresses, then addition of that functionality would definitel= y be a valuable improvement. I do believe that support for multiple interfa= ces (whether the interfaces are on the device or attached to a multi-homed = network), and being able to select the best interface without sequential tr= ying, is important. Barbara From nobody Wed Mar 8 13:26:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58199129510 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:26:35 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iISUD4Pbd9tl for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:26:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x236.google.com (mail-pg0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D6B11294D7 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:26:33 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x236.google.com with SMTP id 25so17656982pgy.0 for ; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 13:26:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=lQhZeudcLcQ4LgY4IAPOo3R1nh8+tcvOMQNrA1XX140=; b=TzXPVsRyJz1nWAuDJ+HlTWmi/ARnS1uNh1wg5Ems9T7lDE017wkbjNVTnpl24cMHF9 1ObNOePA93WnIOq+pcww0WbRprIXb++Bk44FSScAHPUdPC5dkECsHrC9su/6ow0RTOQF MyfqK4UoXZDLHhgFwO8eEuUOuycI3JejlyiOcFurR0V8UsMS2TfVeS/4Nx+Di3WFlUsE HyQn2A58dSU35uDy9nNVPL+47q2s3h+iKtwzzdqRMgSkOcfFqVUtO6nK05BeWJaRwE8F 9hCuE3j2b4jdPtqjhIFevo23TcVVeLwnnzUo3dI7vpPpxO2LRRVvRSFZUXi4172GlwnJ zLvg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=lQhZeudcLcQ4LgY4IAPOo3R1nh8+tcvOMQNrA1XX140=; b=tHTGHCgCNBxQn6Aj0WtRkzukPfZ+YMG3MkTKUwJt3ArCI6HOZIHHmxG024mK53d3Pv +h9Amzsx4ExZoPQg/cNPGgbik3QgC7+0+yl0kURiF8K3v7uHJX1U7YiW7xTk3GZVQVbW v2KhwnNFQ2Z9EchO6qRWrNboqjwbwolWWaLmV9cafbZ5lLuT/mdKrm4hrzEMW8z0Nui6 keALJtBDcvlnq8OjBOiGsg2k0FVO95VV5Xiv/EbKu46QYwSaRX9mAj23ePAWdrbr1wHM 6FxGuVDtrrkvs/taor6wl8MttiFF7cnoWljiMvo2G9RhG5hdUNR8JnYP95EHoj4ghhI4 zOdA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39kcFqNoCzPN186YyU3Ny+9VGGFij/NtrQ27EMhRBBcQeCudgtrpwc89f9/VpFFlQw== X-Received: by 10.84.228.208 with SMTP id y16mr11730649pli.168.1489008393114; Wed, 08 Mar 2017 13:26:33 -0800 (PST) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (wsip-184-191-158-59.sd.sd.cox.net. [184.191.158.59]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g29sm7960563pfg.37.2017.03.08.13.26.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 08 Mar 2017 13:26:32 -0800 (PST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <20170308205555.GE2367@Space.Net> Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:26:30 -0800 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <0277C765-EFE1-4AEE-B8DD-5F733C1ED6EB@gmail.com> References: <4AAC6FDE-9307-46A0-A380-759075FD2D3D@gmail.com> <241F735D-EA14-4294-9435-2A74CDB68419@consulintel.es> <8AEB9A29-7B2C-4A83-9725-D2CF9F372FC0@gmail.com> <20170308205555.GE2367@Space.Net> To: Gert Doering X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF 98 v6ops agenda request X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 21:26:35 -0000 > On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Gert Doering wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 12:42:16PM -0800, Fred Baker wrote: >> Actually, they fail over mutually. And by the same mechanism, if >> a device has two interfaces and therefore two addresses, or two >> addresses on the same interface (note that I didn't say whether >> that was IPv4 or IPv6), and one address stops working (pick a >> reason), it selects the working address and all that comes with it. >=20 > It does? For two v6 addresses with both global scope? The algorithm doesn't discuss scope or address type. It does mention = address *family*; it states the algorithm in an arbitrarily narrow range = - one has an IPv6 address and an IPv4 address for itself and for the = peer, and is choosing between address pairs. I commented in the = discussion, but the authors didn't pick up on the comment. To me, it is = fundamentally about multihoming (host or network), and choosing between = two access methods. If I can get there using IPv6 or Bluetooth LE 4.2, = ... Given a choice, any choice, the suggestion is that one tries both = choices in a staged manner, and selects the one that first demonstrably = works. Freds-MacBook-Pro:rfc fred$ rfc 'happy eyeballs' https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6555 6555 Happy Eyeballs: Success with Dual-Stack Hosts. D. Wing, A. Yourtchenko. April 2012. (Format: TXT=3D34048 bytes) (Status: = PROPOSED STANDARD) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC6555) Freds-MacBook-Pro:rfc fred$ fgrep -i scope rfc6555.txt connection-oriented transports (e.g., TCP, SCTP), which is the scope Freds-MacBook-Pro:rfc fred$ fgrep -i global rfc6555.txt Freds-MacBook-Pro:rfc fred$ > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > --=20 > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? >=20 > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. = Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Wed Mar 8 13:27:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 10B03129555 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:27:45 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wPwxDtvzwiqH for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:27:43 -0800 (PST) Received: from mx1.ernw.net (mx1.ernw.net [62.159.96.78]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3D50129510 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:27:42 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail1.ernw.net (unknown [172.31.1.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail1.ernw.net", Issuer "ernw ca1" (verified OK)) by mx1.ernw.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5030527328 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 22:27:41 +0100 (CET) Received: from ws26.ernw.net (unknown [172.31.1.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "ws26.ernw.net", Issuer "ernw ca1" (verified OK)) by mail1.ernw.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 338231AF777 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 22:27:41 +0100 (CET) Received: by ws26.ernw.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 8FE7F39F8F; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 22:27:41 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 22:27:41 +0100 From: Enno Rey To: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170308212741.GB10218@ernw.de> References: <4AAC6FDE-9307-46A0-A380-759075FD2D3D@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DADC3C2@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DADC3C2@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.1 (2016-10-04) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Fwd: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 21:27:45 -0000 Hi, On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 09:05:20PM +0000, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > Yes. I think HE has proven incredibly valuable and will continue to be needed - not just for selecting between IPv4 and IPv6, but also for selecting from among multiple IPv6 interfaces. isn't RFC 6724 supposed to address this? best Enno Increased understanding and improvements are a good thing. > Barbara > > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker > Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 2:20 PM > To: v6ops@ietf.org WG > Subject: [v6ops] Fwd: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request > > The chairs have received this request, and (surprise) are in the process of planning our agenda. Do folks want to discuss it? > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: David Schinazi > > Subject: IETF 98 v6ops agenda request > Date: March 8, 2017 at 10:50:53 AM PST > To: fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com, lee@asgard.org, Ron Bonica > > Cc: v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, Tommy Pauly > > > Hi v6ops chairs, > > Tommy Pauly and myself have written up what we've learned > in the past few years maintaining and improving Apple's Happy Eyeballs stack, > and submitted it as draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update. > We'd like the opportunity to present this at the v6ops session in Chicago. > > I think this would be a 15 minute presentation (including questions), > with the title "An Update to Happy Eyeballs". Would that be possible? > > Full draft available here: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update > > Thanks! > David Schinazi > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- Enno Rey ERNW GmbH - Carl-Bosch-Str. 4 - 69115 Heidelberg - www.ernw.de Tel. +49 6221 480390 - Fax 6221 419008 - Cell +49 173 6745902 Handelsregister Mannheim: HRB 337135 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Enno Rey ======================================================= Blog: www.insinuator.net || Conference: www.troopers.de Twitter: @Enno_Insinuator ======================================================= From nobody Wed Mar 8 13:40:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 345721294E8 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:40:13 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XgwJGDsbGy6r for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:40:11 -0800 (PST) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7597B1294CD for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 13:40:11 -0800 (PST) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8C4B5617F4 for ; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 22:40:09 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4FCE361385; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 22:40:09 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 419BA380B; Wed, 8 Mar 2017 22:40:09 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 8 Mar 2017 22:40:09 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Fred Baker Message-ID: <20170308214009.GH2367@Space.Net> References: <4AAC6FDE-9307-46A0-A380-759075FD2D3D@gmail.com> <241F735D-EA14-4294-9435-2A74CDB68419@consulintel.es> <8AEB9A29-7B2C-4A83-9725-D2CF9F372FC0@gmail.com> <20170308205555.GE2367@Space.Net> <0277C765-EFE1-4AEE-B8DD-5F733C1ED6EB@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="5uMiWSljtgO2JtXk" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <0277C765-EFE1-4AEE-B8DD-5F733C1ED6EB@gmail.com> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF 98 v6ops agenda request X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 08 Mar 2017 21:40:13 -0000 --5uMiWSljtgO2JtXk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 01:26:30PM -0800, Fred Baker wrote: > > On Mar 8, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Gert Doering wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 08, 2017 at 12:42:16PM -0800, Fred Baker wrote: > >> Actually, they fail over mutually. And by the same mechanism, if > >> a device has two interfaces and therefore two addresses, or two > >> addresses on the same interface (note that I didn't say whether > >> that was IPv4 or IPv6), and one address stops working (pick a > >> reason), it selects the working address and all that comes with it. > >=20 > > It does? For two v6 addresses with both global scope? >=20 > The algorithm doesn't discuss scope or address type.=20 Well, it does not discuss *source* addresses either - which was my point, it picks destination addresses. So, your device with "two addresses on the same interface", if they are both IPv6, will not benefit from HE as I understand it. Or maybe I'm totally misunderanding the paragraph quoted above. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --5uMiWSljtgO2JtXk Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAljAejYACgkQ31bAZeTO f8VRaA/+Kb/OCwNB+gwfDUPfX1E6mY1tg3AFjtle3E9xMtUKO4DDr2SuaifufSgd x98ntX95ByB0tko9/lOILXcNYo0utCGucKnSPYGuex38zcDAPvndmEGrHsxHWG7h X3NzBnQIfSvW9mJyC0IYMnvLjxl3AIG7SMmmiey3YqgsZTA/iSXhnR9ViiKj4Qva /DzswcjZUh+so0K80hHN278aj6Hh9O4lrwZMs6SqlFzT8yVi50TH6hVCMf3rhOI/ LS1BhfLhV4kBjRazGhm7GRmb7IVtCKBshJgj3CbF3zeT6Aatl89Wx06fx0A+4aiZ OuOJIFhi0SIwmdOO74Y0ShFA0trkRpaXkrKIexgGQin4sTwzKa1xqWX9sRyhkKXe akkBf/JPOXnMo3dat9hIkIOlkdd7QhmhBEXw7JkrvFsBb0L5kz+TUndKqQHrkqQ2 9bxCURWHFxb/zj2VVyUvHCQmd4s0Py6WRp6vfFplzDO2mNmj907fxAcBCU9VAOy9 e4k6SIUQiKIkVtQikrDkgzZr3QMUPCRZ2RMMk6hDPskwwd/T+DAtm19dpqUB4BSL 0b9sayMo6iKGqZdDRN84LpHL9chOnhNgfGO6+k0I/YnDTY2F4kIL1iqZJMcjbSfV awcDdLtnKYiTm9cCFis1CRqO6CdK20MysAPdn2m/TzyXeOlwLLQ= =0RpU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --5uMiWSljtgO2JtXk-- From nobody Thu Mar 9 02:52:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0FDF12945E for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 02:52:00 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qz6ugW_U33Ws for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 02:51:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0023129454 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 02:51:58 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #127) id m1clvfj-0000FCC; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 11:51:51 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Wed, 08 Mar 2017 11:25:29 -0800 ." Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2017 11:51:48 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2017 10:52:01 -0000 >Tommy Pauly and myself have written up what we've learned >in the past few years maintaining and improving Apple's Happy Eyeballs stack, >and submitted it as draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update. The draft says: Intended status: Standards Track With that in mind I would prefer splitting the DNS and the connection parts over two different drafts. The reason is two fold: 1) The only API that we standardized (getaddrinfo) cannot support the required behavior. So an application would have to choose between using a standard API or implementing happy eyeballs. 2) In my experience, AAAA hardly ever times out. (I wanted to write 'fail', but failure, as in not returning the correct AAAA can be close to 1%. But as long as there is no delay, it doesn't matter for happy eyeballs). I think setting up tcp connections in staggered fashion is highly useful. Writing code that gets triggered by DNS responses coming is not supported by standard APIs and may make code needlessly complex. So we should not require such behavior. From nobody Thu Mar 9 08:56:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95447128B44 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 08:56:03 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QXQrt6HQ4-LZ for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 08:56:02 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x22b.google.com (mail-pf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8549E126CD8 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 08:56:02 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id w189so30857410pfb.0 for ; Thu, 09 Mar 2017 08:56:02 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=ZCAj0PGrxflwKmBZUDv9o1Z+1lmD6rZTsUWck6jEJTU=; b=c5mBYlIdbGab0HmYUOwrMRVKiZjT3Oq5TmSiu8KN6HWk/x5arIUgW1bbeueGGlIcRl 60M8b8Ckigh6KvNtvvmhmF7v30vLNNvlFu8LnU6njaXERlHQnxnTqv3u40eS/uvuIsD2 sjfCionIMH0Lq2gY++4tI1UvRaw6wDH8GzU4v9omM/zKOQVMV+vWeCUwBCLkuUrYRRyA Lc3rREMog2tfTQYb/ouPxSrDPDJy6VF9BQIuLlU1HGgZDXoYskkRg4D6Z8Ltkxyjp9+a hjDMF/QgTFYuA/oDKq3TNcOc5W/QCrYx+0Gv57BwertCTdtWycansqBfbOF6SLJke6Up Jkug== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=ZCAj0PGrxflwKmBZUDv9o1Z+1lmD6rZTsUWck6jEJTU=; b=lglnuwzpTxxNZSJqI6Ybam/BeOIl4//jZyrvX7a1pTnJwfxHGJypdJhGNr0ABLBJq9 DZO0O4cSdHfev+9j02C0pOEiWDNDMJfoRbPDH+LSRCcd22+BaYcap6NnXLTAME03NLVM H93qhVyAW81KwMJz9Lv+bt6Q3l7xZ3H+u4uQ4145187F2oSsZrMyuvufVr6+pGo4Z4VC wRKRB7fan9E7a/XW+pqlFHpkEOXcF0TsndSI98iY8Mm5awhEDg756rKMato3WwLyGC/S PfLOrckH77wZL4OuWqQrxzOLWhYdKeSkBGO6FMVWTI7IOeAPd9U8DRzF1wzm8oSAOyV0 HK+g== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lJezOtSOKdaBKBYokM0upvILjkqGFkH4UEjOMTOKieI/nJYeUzyU3jWLNGDxCY2ilQ X-Received: by 10.84.148.134 with SMTP id k6mr18765167pla.128.1489078561882; Thu, 09 Mar 2017 08:56:01 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:5a8:4:2290:61:8955:a321:5690? ([2001:5a8:4:2290:61:8955:a321:5690]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b11sm13595364pfj.27.2017.03.09.08.56.01 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 09 Mar 2017 08:56:01 -0800 (PST) From: james woodyatt Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_AB170825-82FA-43DE-8FBF-4534ACEB3B25" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 08:56:00 -0800 In-Reply-To: To: Philip Homburg References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2017 16:56:03 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_AB170825-82FA-43DE-8FBF-4534ACEB3B25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Philip, Just a friendly correction. A nit, really. On Mar 9, 2017, at 02:51, Philip Homburg = wrote: >=20 > 1) The only API that we standardized (getaddrinfo) cannot support the = required > behavior. So an application would have to choose between using a = standard > API or implementing happy eyeballs. This wasn=E2=80=99t us. It was the Open Group. We have no standard API = of our own. --james woodyatt > --Apple-Mail=_AB170825-82FA-43DE-8FBF-4534ACEB3B25 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Hi Philip,

Just a friendly correction. A nit, really.

On Mar 9, 2017, at 02:51, = Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-6@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:

1)= The only API that we standardized (getaddrinfo) cannot support the = required
  behavior. So an application would = have to choose between using a standard
  API = or implementing happy eyeballs.

This wasn=E2=80=99t us. It was the Open Group. We = have no standard API of our own.


--james woodyatt <jhw@google.com>



= --Apple-Mail=_AB170825-82FA-43DE-8FBF-4534ACEB3B25-- From nobody Thu Mar 9 09:23:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44E6C126D74 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 09:23:01 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.921 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.921 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nccnetworks.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ghWDJelTJ50m for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 09:22:59 -0800 (PST) Received: from EUR02-HE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-eopbgr10095.outbound.protection.outlook.com [40.107.1.95]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A5BA412966B for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 09:22:58 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=nccnetworks.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-nccnetworks-co-uk; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=OOiZ3Zkgv3M2SbJujbXoiIMU209EkTTCYRAYd0cswwI=; b=lM1pjSXQorELA17BPLqjY39F3Zwka8K17mLf5JmgXPd4geA/4WwHKhgfj0TGd7oD8Rup3TvVH7V+i2Pahj1boqwz5rS0mBpshR0ScJH4kfrI9x94shkqGaz/AXPkcwf/v+2Yo6MSC/LWiVwaxG92R6dgNmUUKmAPWBjaqFg6n2w= Received: from DB5PR05MB1030.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.161.240.149) by DB5PR05MB1032.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.161.240.150) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.947.12; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 17:22:55 +0000 Received: from DB5PR05MB1030.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a980:3fb2:8fda:1670]) by DB5PR05MB1030.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::a980:3fb2:8fda:1670%16]) with mapi id 15.01.0947.020; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 17:22:55 +0000 From: Nick Chettle To: David Schinazi , IPv6 Operations Thread-Topic: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs Thread-Index: AQHSmEHPBVnT3qUhpEmVbed86MRKy6GMv+yy Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 17:22:54 +0000 Message-ID: References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com>, In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: apple.com; 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SRVR:DB5PR05MB1032; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:DB5PR05MB1032; x-forefront-prvs: 0241D5F98C x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(39450400003)(377424004)(189998001)(3660700001)(76176999)(50986999)(3280700002)(7110500001)(5660300001)(2906002)(54356999)(5250100002)(106116001)(74482002)(33656002)(2900100001)(305945005)(7736002)(74316002)(66066001)(8666007)(6246003)(55016002)(81166006)(99286003)(38730400002)(53936002)(229853002)(53546006)(42882006)(86362001)(3846002)(6436002)(8676002)(9686003)(8936002)(15650500001)(6306002)(7696004)(6116002)(102836003)(2420400007)(6506006)(2950100002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:DB5PR05MB1032; H:DB5PR05MB1030.eurprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nccnetworks.co.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Mar 2017 17:22:54.8156 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 56ec107c-cefb-4ecc-a306-77dfc5d215a7 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: DB5PR05MB1032 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2017 17:23:01 -0000 Hi David, It looks good, thanks for sharing what you've learnt. I just have one question, when talking about the DNS query in section 2 you= say: Both queries SHOULD be sent on the wire as close together as possible, with the ordering being dictated by the system's host address preference policy. Then when talking about DNS server selection in Section 2.1 you mention tha= t: In keeping with the Happy Eyeballs approach, queries SHOULD be sent over IPv6 first. Are these statements slightly contradictory or should DNS queries relate to= the host policy while DNS server selection always uses IPv6 first? Thanks, Nick ________________________________________ From: v6ops on behalf of David Schinazi Sent: 08 March 2017 19:25:29 To: IPv6 Operations Subject: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs Hi v6ops, Tommy Pauly and myself have written up what we've learned in the past few years maintaining and improving Apple's Happy Eyeballs stac= k, and submitted it as draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update. You'd love to hear your feedback! Thanks, David Schinazi Begin forwarded message: From: internet-drafts@ietf.org Subject: New Version Notification for draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-upda= te-00.txt Date: March 8, 2017 at 10:43:20 PST To: Tommy Pauly >, David Schinazi= > A new version of I-D, draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-00.txt has been successfully submitted by David Schinazi and posted to the IETF repository. Name: draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update Revision: 00 Title: An Update to Happy Eyeballs Document date: 2017-03-08 Group: Individual Submission Pages: 7 URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-v6ops-happ= y-eyeballs-update-00.txt Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-ey= eballs-update/ Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeball= s-update-00 Abstract: "Happy Eyeballs" (RFC6555) is the name for a technique of reducing user-visible delays on dual-stack hosts. Since one address family (IPv4 or IPv6) may be blocked, broken, or sub-optimal on a network, clients that attempt connections for both address families in parallel have a higher chance of establishing a connection sooner. Now that this approach has been deployed at scale and measured for several years, the algorithm specification can be refined to improve its reliability and generalization. Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submissio= n until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. The IETF Secretariat From nobody Thu Mar 9 09:31:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E7B1E1294E8 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 09:31:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JUEWmyU0ikTu for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 09:31:24 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-in2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.151.62.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51F91129460 for ; 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Thu, 9 Mar 2017 09:31:24 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11973e11-60f049a000007590-ee-58c1916c2b8e Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz09.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz09.apple.com [17.128.115.80]) by relay8.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 37.59.07296.B6191C85; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 09:31:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from [17.226.23.61] (unknown [17.226.23.61]) by nwk-mmpp-sz09.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170210 64bit (built Feb 10 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0OMK00DIM60BFC80@nwk-mmpp-sz09.apple.com>; Thu, 09 Mar 2017 09:31:23 -0800 (PST) Sender: tpauly@apple.com From: Tommy Pauly In-reply-to: Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2017 09:31:22 -0800 Message-id: <8ACEDA77-14E6-4DA7-B1CF-1237CF956A1F@apple.com> References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Nick Chettle X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3263) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FCYppsz8WCEwbdNPBZLTmxgsTh9bC+z A5PHkiU/mTz2nDzOHMAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJXxfPc7toIpChUbJr9mbGD8KNnFyMkhIWAi 8XDRa7YuRi4OIYF9jBJ75+xkgkmsuPaOFSJxkFHizsoZjCAJXgFBiR+T77F0MXJwMAvISxw8 LwsSZhbQkvj+qJUFor6fSaL75gk2kBphAQmJzXsSIUwDiZ/3M0HK2QRUJI5/28AMYnMKxEtc 334AbC2LgKrEpNkzmCFGekmcPrOWCWKrjcSJSR+hxl9ilFi1YyJYQkRAU+JG2x6om2UluhdO YwYpkhBYwSbx7fIutgmMwrOQnD0L4exZSM5ewMi8ilEoNzEzRzczz0gvsaAgJ1UvOT93EyMo sKfbCe5gPL7K6hCjAAejEg/vjOyDEUKsiWXFlbmHGKU5WJTEeYtmH4gQEkhPLEnNTk0tSC2K LyrNSS0+xMjEwSnVwHg6f+urn4dzU39bhR/+y/Rq9SqtR1fU/fiUJq6Z8jthn3C8ke79L1Zd 4UqCt9kevv1/03bekdmRK013f1H6H2oUd21nmpuQ9kInzY3s8aqiD222RL1uYZ+X8DSWfb/V u6SvUS1RplrbRP9Nfl58X3BS6U1W7Utzi7wbdXpcW9Z/XCChtT/D6owSS3FGoqEWc1FxIgCb Oo5fTQIAAA== X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFuphkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42IRbCgO0M2ZeDDC4OI3VoslJzawWJw+tpfZ gcljyZKfTB57Th5nDmCK4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4Mp4vvsdW8EUhYoNk18zNjB+lOxi5OSQEDCR WHHtHWsXIxeHkMBBRok7K2cwgiR4BQQlfky+x9LFyMHBLCAvcfC8LEiYWUBL4vujVhaI+n4m ie6bJ9hAaoQFJCQ270mEMA0kft7PBClnE1CROP5tAzOIzSkQL3F9+wEmEJtFQFVi0uwZzBAj vSROn1nLBLHVRuLEpI9Q4y8xSqzaMREsISKgKXGjbQ8TxM2yEt0LpzFPYBSYheTSWQiXzkJy 6QJG5lWMAkWpOYmVFnqJBQU5qXrJ+bmbGMGBWJi2g7FpudUhRgEORiUe3hnZByOEWBPLiitz DzFKcDArifCe7gMK8aYkVlalFuXHF5XmpBYfYqwCemAis5Rocj4wSvJK4g1NTAxMjI3NjI3N TcypIqwkzsu8bG+EkEB6YklqdmpqQWoRzHImDk6pBsZp+yZ8+pV8Z030hIsbY0J7ws89Z5qj drVyavzjfY9W5LHFBa5qqmhO28D38cebEL2Hs0VmHFzrafV/ktGKZ10s3i/LHJ7c8/2gEXA0 IWG/TWxt1sY5TXWh+6/nCt5/4CfJJrhHojD7wanZfd2eITM67yknZytx3k52cOA3ZI0QXNHJ 46HEHa3EUpyRaKjFXFScCAB6m3oqnwIAAA== Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2017 17:31:26 -0000 Hi Nick, We can clarify the text to make the distinction clearer. This case refers to the sending of A and AAAA queries to your DNS server: > Both queries SHOULD be sent on the wire as > close together as possible, with the ordering being dictated by the > system's host address preference policy. The second case refers to which DNS server we send to, if we have both an IPv6 address for a DNS server and an IPv4 address for a DNS server: > In keeping with the Happy Eyeballs approach, > queries SHOULD be sent over IPv6 first. So, to summarize: - Choose which DNS server to talk to first if you have multiple; prefer IPv6 if you have no better information that's what your system prefers - When you send queries to that server, send both A and AAAA close together, and if your system prefers IPv6, send the AAAA first. Thanks, Tommy > On Mar 9, 2017, at 9:22 AM, Nick Chettle wrote: > > Hi David, > > It looks good, thanks for sharing what you've learnt. > > I just have one question, when talking about the DNS query in section 2 you say: > > Both queries SHOULD be sent on the wire as > close together as possible, with the ordering being dictated by the > system's host address preference policy. > > Then when talking about DNS server selection in Section 2.1 you mention that: > > In keeping with the Happy Eyeballs approach, > queries SHOULD be sent over IPv6 first. > > Are these statements slightly contradictory or should DNS queries relate to the host policy while DNS server selection always uses IPv6 first? > > Thanks, Nick > > > > > > ________________________________________ > From: v6ops on behalf of David Schinazi > Sent: 08 March 2017 19:25:29 > To: IPv6 Operations > Subject: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs > > Hi v6ops, > > Tommy Pauly and myself have written up what we've learned > in the past few years maintaining and improving Apple's Happy Eyeballs stack, > and submitted it as draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update. > > You'd love to hear your feedback! > > Thanks, > David Schinazi > > > Begin forwarded message: > > From: internet-drafts@ietf.org > Subject: New Version Notification for draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-00.txt > Date: March 8, 2017 at 10:43:20 PST > To: Tommy Pauly >, David Schinazi > > > > A new version of I-D, draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-00.txt > has been successfully submitted by David Schinazi and posted to the > IETF repository. > > Name: draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update > Revision: 00 > Title: An Update to Happy Eyeballs > Document date: 2017-03-08 > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 7 > URL: https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-00.txt > Status: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update/ > Htmlized: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-00 > > > Abstract: > "Happy Eyeballs" (RFC6555) is the name for a technique of reducing > user-visible delays on dual-stack hosts. Since one address family > (IPv4 or IPv6) may be blocked, broken, or sub-optimal on a network, > clients that attempt connections for both address families in > parallel have a higher chance of establishing a connection sooner. > Now that this approach has been deployed at scale and measured for > several years, the algorithm specification can be refined to improve > its reliability and generalization. > > > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > The IETF Secretariat > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Thu Mar 9 09:40:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3068F1296D6 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 09:40:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1wiqLzWfsEuz for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 09:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3CEA91296C3 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 09:40:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #127) id m1cm23H-0000HzC; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 18:40:35 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 9 Mar 2017 08:56:00 -0800 ." Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2017 18:40:34 +0100 Archived-At: Cc: james woodyatt Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2017 17:40:40 -0000 > Just a friendly correction. A nit, really. > > On Mar 9, 2017, at 02:51, Philip Homburg <[1]pch-v6ops-6@u-1.phicoh.com> > wrote: > > 1) The only API that we standardized (getaddrinfo) cannot support > the required > behavior. So an application would have to choose between using > a standard > API or implementing happy eyeballs. > > This wasnt us. It was the Open Group. We have no standard API > of our own. --james woodyatt <[2]jhw@google.com> Yes, you are correct. I never noticed that it originate there. From nobody Thu Mar 9 10:34:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE5A61297BC for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:34:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5B0Li_NZQYdL for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from nitro.isi.edu (nitro.isi.edu [128.9.208.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD728129705 for ; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:34:23 -0800 (PST) Received: from [128.9.184.163] ([128.9.184.163]) (authenticated bits=0) by nitro.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v29IXsIQ027650 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:33:54 -0800 (PST) To: Nick Chettle , David Schinazi , IPv6 Operations References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <528589be-b3fd-d635-1ed0-2f4c5cbaa344@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 9 Mar 2017 10:33:53 -0800 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MailScanner-ID: v29IXsIQ027650 X-ISI-4-69-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 09 Mar 2017 18:34:25 -0000 On 3/9/2017 9:22 AM, Nick Chettle wrote: > Both queries SHOULD be sent on the wire as > close together as possible, with the ordering being dictated by the > system's host address preference policy. With one or more layers (link, tunnel, etc.), and possibly one or more "wires", the end system might not have any control over this requirement. Why is it needed? (if it applies ONLY if the queries end up on the same "wire", how would an end system even detect that?) Joe From nobody Thu Mar 9 22:06:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E69D41295C6; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 22:06:25 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IVP7VzIOp516; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 22:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x234.google.com (mail-pf0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 136C4127A90; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 22:06:25 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x234.google.com with SMTP id w189so37902629pfb.0; Thu, 09 Mar 2017 22:06:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=N6KfpuVNNI9grgqye1Nh10elM9h8ThBKvkJr3hMScdk=; b=UyT7MFfxvnIYlmicYv5jLykWjCSLiJ07D73XoOk3xIYK1MUwGSSpHShe4BTns+dGxQ MhW6S9vOIMcRPL7ZKVren9wuR3GABi7wwwp7woKvw0gTNKt1nV9C1YmMO0h1sNIYwUjI sHtdEZiMCuJsmuR1yPljQA4GLC3/4rJChsvVTSvkIpK7X+L2MWymGxQ8LVhiqPj+DiKr /9jtL57Gdgx5C7YrmRd15j3o3c9yFbxMat1XYJr8CZf+jGRg4hhQeg9fa5MW2ajUqyPA u2/1F+OfmeDliUc21BU1SwhZafMVunRuyPARl9i7lXB17PKIfA03p4o5tgNc++GdmWZ/ ciPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=N6KfpuVNNI9grgqye1Nh10elM9h8ThBKvkJr3hMScdk=; b=AcRdxDiE4K5MksLTjFAvhnrg4VhDZ1TaYboNT1eAr0TsTPQFF+XQf8VHe6FA6EvXUa gvb4OLROF859yebgyScKo0j/CTZJ44WA22+OnsS1EDugSXhBrRhc5+I9zykK3R3pkqvc ZYpjsauNd6HKD92UzyI/jn94vXPg7RqX3Gl+RCXc8ZoozySOoueDh/mnnFrll6MySPTI AhP/jqOH2OYTOMXBtvHcrYy+gFZse4WuLo7iaBtQBGJqO4gMVZnKPRZZBdRX78wiKGdK 6DMCGI7/2eMnPnDzD0kWLDrqlgloOs3XBIOWN4XD6bVdQio71MRM3DZVqbw40ukViKIV srEg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39l8ZGJpFOJrPVBZgK4Fanf02RE0gimJRaUC5/eS0aeBpnpWGrpvYQ1TdgUggW/1BCIOW43NfC5vjAqa7A== X-Received: by 10.98.220.200 with SMTP id c69mr18858910pfl.60.1489125984563; Thu, 09 Mar 2017 22:06:24 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.151.1 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 22:06:04 -0800 (PST) From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:36:04 +0530 Message-ID: To: v6ops list , 6man WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045cc42e55f87a054a5a2953 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 06:06:26 -0000 --f403045cc42e55f87a054a5a2953 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Hello, Can anyone tell how will a DHCPv6 subscriber learn about the default gateway it has to contact for the subscriber traffic? Yours, Naveen. --f403045cc42e55f87a054a5a2953 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,

Can anyone tell how will a DHCPv= 6 subscriber learn about the default gateway it has to contact for the subs= criber traffic?

Yours,
Naveen.
--f403045cc42e55f87a054a5a2953-- From nobody Thu Mar 9 23:03:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD009129400; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 23:03:36 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f6D_jjVspIzA; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 23:03:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (bizet.nethelp.no [195.1.209.33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAA35127078; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 23:03:34 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (bizet.nethelp.no [IPv6:2001:8c0:9e04:500::1]) by bizet.nethelp.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id B44F3E6065; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 08:03:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 08:03:31 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20170310.080331.41692443.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: naveen.sarma@gmail.com From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: References: X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org, ipv6@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 07:03:37 -0000 > Can anyone tell how will a DHCPv6 subscriber learn about the default > gateway it has to contact for the subscriber traffic? A DHCPv6 subscriber is supposed to learn about default gateway from Router Advertisement. Steinar Haug, AS2116 From nobody Thu Mar 9 23:43:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5352512961F; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 23:43:28 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cHH8Sa1ouzrU; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 23:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x22d.google.com (mail-pf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FC2212961B; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 23:43:27 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id j5so38898472pfb.2; Thu, 09 Mar 2017 23:43:27 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=dSe1iG9vU1NhaXegJTvvIAyw+ZgmGRPSm/QjkA8iprE=; b=tbvNoy2z4o/7KXqTipp63x8pguD8wcVrRuoD/J/tuB5PiumoVrvfFCIfQVrbl80q56 zaWIQ9vS6lPbPmCaeSbR/Sd8ppT7KxlatA1K+aJImI7g1oZRd9gRKBiE6gaLYjbK3TfS VIv8x/8FIH6fhyTJ9lAGRT2PQDYW0Yn/ctvkWif/Rbuzsp4/WJLxepRvnlxEFPoiHce6 T940FZmuxkRD2cH7DykffZrwqj7dhjdMnEUpRI+P27znhzPL9STH76mGIaN9vSlU45lC aq3XmpjUQUSxdwNcAR38YclmVVKyunxqFPN03NO1/xKOO9Xx/DB9yEeaTIjSVlyf5l2a ZXkQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=dSe1iG9vU1NhaXegJTvvIAyw+ZgmGRPSm/QjkA8iprE=; b=IZy/5c6QqdbELmy4aORcr5FDAbapxQsykYh0sB4klljO8KufFyEa2bZp0jkv+7Rz2/ AvoJetpNiZKVTFSSPBCeKCP3acZedKT8Uu9/RIoWPvrPwDJ/E8BAy4tAnVTr9/47RRde C31XEm3KNnQRlDhwLEc8di4cNJpJCALk+bUJ5x3IxxU6F/AToqjrIWtTVRaDrx0tnK/f 6XamV1eC0YroTK0/6DTrBA0fOyS9w8Tppnh4e3R019h9ptcde1diKvhGzNZYSLW/GOmR JuvaRFGKXKoHw4oN7luSL3xVCo0M9wd0gEVd9Ed3Djt4ef3EEnr8ab8SMFEl4jJBIUQn L6Ig== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lWLQUY62fUTpHOickOhA0shEXxAMNPTOQ7PJ9hNDGxWDdIiIlfMxhNXciQdhYtr79issWuulEFi9nDqg== X-Received: by 10.98.160.84 with SMTP id r81mr19495409pfe.71.1489131806886; Thu, 09 Mar 2017 23:43:26 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.151.1 with HTTP; Thu, 9 Mar 2017 23:43:06 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20170310.080331.41692443.sthaug@nethelp.no> From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:13:06 +0530 Message-ID: To: sthaug@nethelp.no Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1144023e5f925a054a5b840a Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list , 6man WG Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 07:43:28 -0000 --001a1144023e5f925a054a5b840a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 +v6ops, 6man Yours, Naveen. On 10 March 2017 at 12:41, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > Okay. Can you tell which parameters of RA will convey the default gateway > address? Also, can you point me to the document where it is mentioned that > a DHCPv6 subscriber has to use RS-RA for resolving gateway address? > > Yours, > Naveen. > > On 10 March 2017 at 12:33, wrote: > >> > Can anyone tell how will a DHCPv6 subscriber learn about the default >> > gateway it has to contact for the subscriber traffic? >> >> A DHCPv6 subscriber is supposed to learn about default gateway from >> Router Advertisement. >> >> Steinar Haug, AS2116 >> > > --001a1144023e5f925a054a5b840a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
+v6ops, 6man

Yours,
Naveen.

On 10 March 2017 at 12:41, Naveen Kottapalli= <naveen.sarma@gmail.com> wrote:
Okay.=C2=A0 Can you tell which parameters of= RA will convey the default gateway address?=C2=A0 Also, can you point me t= o the document where it is mentioned that a DHCPv6 subscriber has to use RS= -RA for resolving gateway address?

Yours,
Naveen.

On 10 March 2017 at 12:33, <sthaug@nethelp= .no> wrote:
> Can = anyone tell how will a DHCPv6 subscriber learn about the default
> gateway it has to contact for the subscriber traffic?

A DHCPv6 subscriber is supposed to learn about default gateway from<= br> Router Advertisement.

Steinar Haug, AS2116


--001a1144023e5f925a054a5b840a-- From nobody Fri Mar 10 01:03:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22638129717 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 01:03:19 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yS-2MXZrs9eh for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 01:03:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A58DC129706 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 01:03:17 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2A93EIZ004478 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:03:15 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id E4DC42072B2 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:03:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D042F20727A for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:03:14 +0100 (CET) Received: from [132.166.84.108] ([132.166.84.108]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2A93ENx013949 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:03:14 +0100 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <20170310.080331.41692443.sthaug@nethelp.no> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <8855ea43-e55b-b794-1e19-ae224cd0fdcd@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:03:12 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170310.080331.41692443.sthaug@nethelp.no> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway - try it X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:03:19 -0000 Le 10/03/2017 08:03, sthaug@nethelp.no a crit : >> Can anyone tell how will a DHCPv6 subscriber learn about the default >> gateway it has to contact for the subscriber traffic? > > A DHCPv6 subscriber is supposed to learn about default gateway from > Router Advertisement. Or from DHCPv6 as proposed in these Internet Drafts that have not reached an RFC status and have been abandoned because see below: draft-mouton-mif-dhcpv6-drlo-01.txt draft-ietf-mif-dhcpv6-route-option-05 Code: https://www.isc.org/blogs/routing-configuration-over-dhcpv6-2/ http://askubuntu.com/questions/649547/how-to-set-default-gateway-in-dhcpd6-conf At IETF some very vocal people are _against_ it, for reasons that are important to them. Good reasons also exist _in favor_ of these proposals. If you like it - try it. Does it work? Alex > > Steinar Haug, AS2116 > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Fri Mar 10 01:29:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2624129543 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 01:29:46 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.498 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.498 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8dJlZsQ-Fi1w for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 01:29:45 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua0-x22c.google.com (mail-ua0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4C7DE1294BB for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 01:29:45 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id u30so109136000uau.0 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 01:29:45 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=yfNIUCg1vPgxRF6tYdtJVxv6F85C3D59ktspP7zX500=; b=Rvc5A8OqIUYpw/9XJQXbDqHYxIUib9K503Kf0wWoyLviXPIGtI0dXBF8HbI79ogVBz sqsQZQXcQ7HItIMM7QmLMOXgMF30x5N3HFXMsz9PmLhd6BOxTZG5unkP+XKkI2EKjXhy S7143EICEPvMJpvel6w3ySgJXKIr75OCcLuHQVywkKVZdNhrtIdy17W/d8XRY40KLrMm L1B6XuYUj16Nj0lnEYyeY/TmpqzNOMAtQc3Yjx1z4QZlaRMGM3Kklp7jd9+Ig/ZaNnag unrUplzlDwgVcSp/FbdVNIFOPMCLDVUKyZAd/iMVixZ+FRIyKi/3TvaQNfatRp9VRxDE dA1w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=yfNIUCg1vPgxRF6tYdtJVxv6F85C3D59ktspP7zX500=; b=MUfqOtoV7Iv5HkYhk+zrgAYA7GZmngZSWA8CKHE3nuHwbV9jmsddmCWf/1L8BNPvHe dPoHqlGsOLdIkqfNuWWT9p3DvvPjZcJY2Wd875zmi7BaRwipXwnDZpPUHpcH1qpDW4qL ki3OI7Ft3vS+g2sKwiVsowd/pIr8bFiQ3RK2O+KRTPZqUnITDdQYUTHU74EttXEN+NWg 0/5aOjWs3pCYDUYguMZXl4swleyj6MS5Ua9zLQx9ZJumTID6WTSFUdf++mPgEJJYxMSJ cubUcyUOs+FqdQ3Vvjn93+w0KR2QXRN2G28/NuX7CavvAYJvdCns+K4n7ZVL2CqjxZr/ uvWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39k3RurBGMl+ApqqlsBqGHeCAOfhIHFfItlSWySDBytpSp9+3hkXcowsJiCPG/OYoqHFog5Lrlf8QZHElA== X-Received: by 10.176.0.87 with SMTP id 81mr9448722uai.97.1489138184395; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 01:29:44 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.36.144 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 01:29:43 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.159.36.144 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 01:29:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <8855ea43-e55b-b794-1e19-ae224cd0fdcd@gmail.com> References: <20170310.080331.41692443.sthaug@nethelp.no> <8855ea43-e55b-b794-1e19-ae224cd0fdcd@gmail.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 20:29:43 +1100 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d0ad480a2be054a5d00d7 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway - try it X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:29:47 -0000 --001a113d0ad480a2be054a5d00d7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 10 Mar. 2017 8:03 pm, "Alexandre Petrescu" wrote: Le 10/03/2017 =C3=A0 08:03, sthaug@nethelp.no a =C3=A9crit : > Can anyone tell how will a DHCPv6 subscriber learn about the default >> gateway it has to contact for the subscriber traffic? >> > > A DHCPv6 subscriber is supposed to learn about default gateway from > Router Advertisement. > Or from DHCPv6 as proposed in these Internet Drafts that have not reached an RFC status and have been abandoned because see below: draft-mouton-mif-dhcpv6-drlo-01.txt draft-ietf-mif-dhcpv6-route-option-05 Code: https://www.isc.org/blogs/routing-configuration-over-dhcpv6-2/ http://askubuntu.com/questions/649547/how-to-set-default- gateway-in-dhcpd6-conf At IETF some very vocal people are _against_ it, for reasons that are important to them. Have you read RFC1958? "3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one." Good reasons also exist _in favor_ of these proposals. If you like it - try it. Does it work? Now you're just confusing Naveen. One problem, one solution, no confusion, no conflicts and no risks of picking the option opposite to what everybody else picks. Complexity and having to make choice are neither cheap nor risk free. Alex > Steinar Haug, AS2116 > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --001a113d0ad480a2be054a5d00d7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 10 Mar. 2017 8:03 pm, "Alexandre Petrescu" <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com= > wrote:
Le 10/03/2017 = =C3=A0 08:03, sthaug= @nethelp.no a =C3=A9crit :
Can anyone tell how will a DHCPv6 subscriber learn about the default
gateway it has to contact for the subscriber traffic?

A DHCPv6 subscriber is supposed to learn about default gateway from
Router Advertisement.

Or from DHCPv6 as proposed in these Internet Drafts that have not reached a= n RFC status and have been abandoned because see below:

draft-mouton-mif-dhcpv6-drlo-01.txt
draft-ietf-mif-dhcpv6-route-option-05

Code:
https://www.isc.org/blogs/routing= -configuration-over-dhcpv6-2/
http://askubuntu.com/= questions/649547/how-to-set-default-gateway-in-dhcpd6-conf
At IETF some very vocal people are _against_ it, for reasons that are impor= tant to them.

Have you read RFC1958?

=
"3.2 If there a= re several ways of doing the same thing, choose one."


Good reasons also exist _in favor_ of these proposals.

If you like it - try it.=C2=A0 Does it work?

Now you're just confu= sing Naveen.

One problem= , one solution, no confusion, no conflicts and no risks of picking the opti= on opposite to what everybody else picks.

=
Complexity and having to make choice are neither cheap no= r risk free.=C2=A0


<= /div>

Alex


Steinar Haug, AS2116

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

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HE1PR0701MB3004; 6:camm7dggENlGWCq9ogPPhbgMdPCc+zvlB4OmEYajwd/wl5QLOdgabgXU38WYs9xkhBFiXq4TSEr6ZhcRCnU/zws9XWxhLskW47shJfkCt6Wj2P4pPswVw8AqSDW+Zs7E5HfTngrIsMcoWYn2CHqPk4f4y4pwdYXD7Fxghcp3TwDOnornj0RQbS2hOvybp4RHys9U/6bLNe/yf+1t8ZooYdfyQmgf8xBoRVPayPXbrl+16DThHsPyfnZTq+dwV0bXwz59G8uMwURx6lcNIXi7IQVGaUMRrbkiWl0ArI74XqO2+pdGC42viSBa3HxaWsMsUvs1foeScdysAVEYxG79g+EqkWqyLYLC++sq99AIIYfBfWqXWne4DrI933w30Ue0hsuxTsYz/wKmbp+baGE+6Q==; 5:z9FaM+g8vr6l7YzskusnSKLvWTK4z4Z8iYn1irLDxNIgqtdCv10wsui8Mp63PJipEjtT2YGh68gLbIKNyCL1x0HHSHOF2iMm9i6ZEQ0y/SGvHvlxhD8r5s+77dMyXLTRu/3Grhwm9mKaOkXelqfoL8vo+SBrWMHCbEk8yLHY/YU=; 24:xsmYbnC3TTaH4whsPQcci6o1UPVmufxnBs50Hc0ZLxmSMR7AiuV6Vr+Ca4qlSsVvXrjFUsWdwPg31zAFJBqVvr8l7A4LTzFWSKPdVd2UyBs= SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:99 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; HE1PR0701MB3004; 7:jwx+uPOzTNhNPYKfR/C8yrNFB90Fp0G0EUMmWe0BAlheByEp90wCaBrO5Qlczei1VuRQEuA/q+SYuvnRM35EFEKeef0v1CvALbfmu4woH93d9f5ge7EAh0hhZQOmNbXU5n9mgj5MvQ5Mn42PeQXeh9CF8dKYgUYon/1nLud2sWb+I+1/jyGm/1/PIeu4Wm9gHKyK3FkdaDKF9p3fk/mkmUofSn21kBqawf/jSvTHZI8+ZPeuwM4+I9xMZJC7q7PJwVWSFw1jFaQO93XeW/WFLtMtfRVdJfs/tTkv73BRebdy839cYrOjb0xB4QA4Kz+nYBP9I4kXmCh81BIzsvJE5g== X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Mar 2017 10:59:18.0087 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: HE1PR0701MB3004 Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] OT: Requesting information/experience X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:59:26 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tim Chown" Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 9:36 AM > On 7 Mar 2017, at 15:43, joel jaeggli wrote: > > On 3/2/17 9:40 AM, Fred Baker wrote: > ISOC has asked me to put together a report for them to publish in June > regarding the state of IPv6 deployment. I'd appreciate any help folks > on this list can give me, but I must ask that you reply privately, as > it is off-topic. I'll include some notes ISOC gave me about the > intended report, so you can see the objective and the kind of > information I'm looking for. > This sounds like a fairly worthwhile activity, I think a key distinction > compared to attempting something similar under the ruberic of v6ops > other than timelilyness is a lack of need to stake out a consensus > position WRT matters of opinion. > > Indeed. > > One of the things one sees is the variety in the numbers, depending on the measurement methods. Some analysis of that would be interesting. > > For example, for the UK: > > Google, 17% (to their content) > https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html#tab=per-country-ipv6 -adoption&tab=per-country-ipv6-adoption > > Akamai, 11% (to their CDN) > https://www.akamai.com/uk/en/our-thinking/state-of-the-internet-report/s tate-of-the-internet-ipv6-adoption-visualization.jsp > > APNIC, 25% (by use of paid adverts, I believe) > https://stats.labs.apnic.net/ipv6/GB which sounds great until you drill down and see that BSKYB is 88.88% and realise that that is for subscription TV - especially Association Football - and not for a traditional ISP. Take a major UK ISP, such as TalkTalk and you see that 'IPv6 Capable', separated out by ASN, ranges from 0.00% to 0.01%, which bears out my experience of the availability of IPv6 in the UK; ask a salesperson for it and they will ask you how to spell it:-) The major mobile provider, Vodafone, reaches the dizzy heights of 0.73% availability. The only place I have seen IPv6 used in anger is for outdoor sporting venues connecting the various buildings back to the main office. Ah well, back to academia of rfc4291bis. Tom Petch > *Project Overview* > > The State of IPv6 Deployment Report project aims to produce a > thorough, well-presented and impactful report on the state of IPv6 > deployment in time for the anniversary of World IPv6 Launch on June > 6^th , 2017. > > *Project Goals* > > The goals of the project are as follows: > > To document the current state of IPv6 deployment, as thoroughly > and objectively as possible > > To provide a one-stop-shop for someone interested in > understanding the state of IPv6 deployment progress in mid-2017 > > To stimulate further deployment: "If you think IPv6 isn't > happening and that you don't need to act, here's how wrong you are." > > it strikes me a likely that the pool of doubters is not likely to be > swayed out of their positions on the rogers curve by a paper. market > signals that constrain future choices on the other hand do. > > To pull together into one place all the various IPv6 deployment > statistics that are scattered across the Internet > > There are a couple of very good lists already, which you probably already know of, but see > http://www.worldipv6launch.org/measurements/ > and > https://labs.ripe.net/Members/mirjam/content-ipv6-measurement-compilatio n > > To provide a reference point and baseline for future reports so > that we can chart growth in IPv6 deployment in the months and years ahead > > To document some of the innovations that are happening as well as > some of the challenges > > I personally don't value innovation as much as stability with respect to > base specifications. if it means distilling out the pieces w find hard > to or don't use or which don't offer the utility that was assumed great, > a key innovation is shedding the things you don't actually need. > > To identify and discuss the gaps in IPv6 deployment: where are the > pockets of non-deployment? > > *Audiences* > > The report has two primary audiences as follows: > > Executive Summary: Targeted at decision makers (business and > policy) wanting to get a quick feel for the state of IPv6 deployment > as it might impact their business and what they should do/think about > it. This section of the report will also help technology journalists > writing stories about IPv6. > > Body of the report: Targeted at engineers interested in a > comprehensive picture of the state of IPv6 deployment, including some > projections, recommendations and pointers to further resources. > > Much of the content will point to existing reports and content (and if > you have favorite content to point to, please share), but hopefully > pull it together in a way that makes the intended points. Specific > content that folks here may be able to give me or point me to include > operator case studies (timeline, what you did, what worked, what > didn't), measurement methodologies (what was measured and how it was > measured), specifics if they can be divulged (traffic ratios, customer > numbers, ratios for dual-stacked customers), regional differences, > specific applications (DNS, Email, web, etc), services (cloud, > hosting, mail, geolocation, security, etc), IoT reality, ongoing > incentives and challenges, and so on. > the existance and feasibility of single-stacked edges is probably > interesting. I hear that a fair amount when dealing with future mobile > or stb/cpe upgrade cycles. > > Some reporting on IPv6-only deployment at the edges would be good, and its practicality, whether in mobile networks (where most of it seems to be) or elsewhere. > > Tim > > From nobody Fri Mar 10 03:20:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E2E2312988D for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:20:32 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id r6iUrx9G2RNU for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:20:31 -0800 (PST) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 247D812988C for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:20:30 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2ABKTfP031956; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 12:20:29 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 20C73206F06; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 12:20:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1378C200CD9; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 12:20:29 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2ABKSX1017620; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 12:20:28 +0100 To: Mark Smith References: <20170310.080331.41692443.sthaug@nethelp.no> <8855ea43-e55b-b794-1e19-ae224cd0fdcd@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <6bc96716-72ee-bd5c-c4c4-13f615da1a4f@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 12:20:27 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway - try it X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:20:33 -0000 Le 10/03/2017 à 10:29, Mark Smith a écrit : > > > On 10 Mar. 2017 8:03 pm, "Alexandre Petrescu" > > wrote: > > Le 10/03/2017 à 08:03, sthaug@nethelp.no > a écrit : > > Can anyone tell how will a DHCPv6 subscriber learn about the > default > gateway it has to contact for the subscriber traffic? > > > A DHCPv6 subscriber is supposed to learn about default gateway from > Router Advertisement. > > > Or from DHCPv6 as proposed in these Internet Drafts that have not > reached an RFC status and have been abandoned because see below: > > draft-mouton-mif-dhcpv6-drlo-01.txt > draft-ietf-mif-dhcpv6-route-option-05 > > Code: > https://www.isc.org/blogs/routing-configuration-over-dhcpv6-2/ > > http://askubuntu.com/questions/649547/how-to-set-default-gateway-in-dhcpd6-conf > > > At IETF some very vocal people are _against_ it, for reasons that > are important to them. > > > Have you read RFC1958? I only started at RFC2000, sorry :-) > "3.2 If there are several ways of doing the same thing, choose one." But even then, There are two distinct ways to get into someone's NC: with an NA or with an RA. Why are there two? > Good reasons also exist _in favor_ of these proposals. > > If you like it - try it. Does it work? > > > Now you're just confusing Naveen. > > One problem, one solution, no confusion, no conflicts and no risks of > picking the option opposite to what everybody else picks. Except when "consenting adults" like and End User and her operator agree on doing so. DHCPv6 does some things that SLAAC can not do, and vice-versa. If one needs _both_ a delegated prefix _and_ a default route: why should one use two distinct protocol software and 6 messages, when less could do? (just DHCP software, or just ND software, and just 2 messages). > Complexity and having to make choice are neither cheap nor risk free. Yes, I propose to reduce complexity: use just ND, or just DHCP. Which less complex solution do you recommend to someone in need of both a delegated prefix and a default route? Alex > > > > Alex > > > Steinar Haug, AS2116 > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > From nobody Fri Mar 10 03:27:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF631129887 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:27:02 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yvz42u_ATl2M for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:27:00 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-yw0-x231.google.com (mail-yw0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5C7C8129886 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:27:00 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-yw0-x231.google.com with SMTP id o4so21850462ywd.3 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:27:00 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=q5ayEchl2Exx2q18AxcRZ9RPFxfPZpzTwIT/rhVebVw=; b=mrljQvtJsN5XuUFbVS1fdhy/Y3wU0gd98tYI5KmhJR1+8r+wYnDUrHoksWTFC40Ib1 USmbRg8h5NYZZ99m6gwxS5yn+gokoqB+TzQ4uHtogHiB66x6N+Kkx/A+DAgYjuRrfL5o Hhp84xX8Hed5NGWInD+7BJOlKRXvDBc8f53FHtCPnA7pVkYfYSAtuJNiwYxZtBQn60T0 ZS93XMO+01z2pI6pjTG68n8a9nDJSvCm0VN+aeB2uvdl9Sx1fb99u9e/3utsISVPTwDP rPJOzxcu7GfCxythzbsvBKO6uedT+16Vy1rTxwrH4/r9WGEtCxNngE3jrMrf6pWCvJ32 w/sA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=q5ayEchl2Exx2q18AxcRZ9RPFxfPZpzTwIT/rhVebVw=; b=TOfsAJt2sdapZc5FnGnbuZSMmMt2alj8rrlP7fcxEPFUhV9M3hSVgZf3onpb8NXqPj L5q95WoW8Ql+mpwUo9LZXnYvPVmAROj3xsVQgY1zUJm+Qo0he9+97YHxfD0fAHLbYzu0 bRfSMMGn6wntA7M/n9xfk+3wjvvUJhmGRqMBu2yrr+A5pxmis0Nv7btv5PKPyqWRYfYb nEyWvFhVQVvx8B0aFekhHW5nnYM0sY7gFgN0egsWsVBK9EqEwOb/wCVVqSn07HnNLr2m rLaEcT5D/OgcXq9BDQVw2LxHJcvKqyWtWf8lDnC6ytB8oW0MDxmD1DXSFi5d1dqZg4oF ZWng== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39mZGr2iKtrGcp0a/TJ140OuM0dIOlSx2HPug4ro633qYF1SMv149KuVqyg/k6lfgaXinsvLgLsQqCxfXlwa X-Received: by 10.129.124.84 with SMTP id x81mr7281546ywc.271.1489145219412; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:26:59 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.37.207.4 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:26:38 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <6bc96716-72ee-bd5c-c4c4-13f615da1a4f@gmail.com> References: <20170310.080331.41692443.sthaug@nethelp.no> <8855ea43-e55b-b794-1e19-ae224cd0fdcd@gmail.com> <6bc96716-72ee-bd5c-c4c4-13f615da1a4f@gmail.com> From: Erik Kline Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 20:26:38 +0900 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="001a11494168d853a2054a5ea389" Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway - try it X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:27:03 -0000 --001a11494168d853a2054a5ea389 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11494168d2c757054a5ea39f --001a11494168d2c757054a5ea39f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 The RA + DHCPv6-PD mode of deployment is well-understood and actively tested every day by literally tens of millions (or more) of IPv6-enabled residential subscribers around the world. --001a11494168d2c757054a5ea39f Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8
The RA + DHCPv6-PD mode of deployment is well-understood and actively tested every day by literally tens of millions (or more) of IPv6-enabled residential subscribers around the world.
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from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D70E8129887 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:30:16 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oc4ucbhmwYDD for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:30:15 -0800 (PST) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (magpiehouse.plus.com [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18361129886 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:30:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from [192.168.1.55] (lan.furness.net [84.9.59.220]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 23DEB1BC37 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:30:09 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson X-Priority: 3 In-Reply-To: <028a01d2998d$2ed33dc0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:30:09 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <87AAA6AA-0CB5-4539-921B-24D1B61FE901@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <11711B7F-095E-4B49-98AD-4F5D49A0AE94@gmail.com> <2ef9ae7e-3235-dafd-47c1-6474dcd40022@bogus.com> <430C9C8E-C3D8-43DB-A442-4A96E77F00A3@jisc.ac.uk> <028a01d2998d$2ed33dc0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] OT: Requesting information/experience X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:30:17 -0000 t.petch wrote: > which sounds great until you drill down and see that BSKYB is 88.88% = and > realise that that is for subscription TV - especially Association > Football - and not for a traditional ISP. Sky do do broadband (they push hard for triple play - voice line, = broadband, and TV in one package), and AIUI they are IP6 enabled for = that. In some respects they are better placed than most ISPs as they are = one of the ones that mandate use of their own router (and won't release = DSL/PPP login details). I've also read that BT Internet (the retail ISP, not BT the voice = carrier) have been IP6 enabled for some time and have enabled it on = their (latest model) routers.=20 > Take a major UK ISP, such as TalkTalk and you see that 'IPv6 Capable', > separated out by ASN, ranges from 0.00% to 0.01%, which bears out my > experience of the availability of IPv6 in the UK; ask a salesperson = for > it and they will ask you how to spell it:-) >=20 > The major mobile provider, Vodafone, reaches the dizzy heights of = 0.73% > availability. Don't get me going on Vodamoan - I've been dealing with them for a = couple of months now over some DSL installs and they still can't sort = out some simple problems ! "What's our IP6 prefix is going to be one of = the questions I ask them - but I don't want to confuse things until they = get the rest of the problems fixed. For DSL in the UK, my advice is = don't use Vodamoan ! Though to be fair, on the last leased line internet we had installed for = a client site, they did provide an IP6 prefix - but for various reasons = (including our own manglement) nothing got provided to the tenants. That = is a different part of Vodamoan though. At home I'm with Plusnet. They ran a couple of trials, but have since = gone very quiet - it's been (IIRC) 2-3 years now with no news and not = even any "we're working on it". So yes, it's a bit of a mixed bag, with some ISPs (particularly smaller = ones such as A&A and Zen) on the ball, and others in the ... well heck = knows what their plans are != From nobody Fri Mar 10 03:35:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63EEC129895 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:35:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RqebKPN48F7u for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:35:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pf0-x232.google.com (mail-pf0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F139112988A for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:35:03 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pf0-x232.google.com with SMTP id v190so41074270pfb.1 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:35:03 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Dv8VfypPcSg4oEbqlBHssHaBh6nynUm3xfdBcF8NdTg=; b=K83/P1gsr3AYUXi9Z8pplqlxcFxRwQeKzYw+7knyxwZqiG7Fh690STJ/Gdxog8To3O XcfCpmQvHrKPypPmbL3QhG74+KGijTyMWErHBfX9N7Jg6tseUat/iz7Xt2R9iNKJQuA6 KNMtJ0yIFgO5xpP/ga6wdDqv6S7GZd/UuRomYet5+/zA4leEKwBZyOzyQQ+CwkWoBDNY xlmlnjiNfMyqX0DwjkYmRimW9LyfOVR6KfMdSmVNfZT5ZRaQ/C18rwvE2LNR7ByK5S5p IyJxmhjkkqycdftICTJVFiGefA1W63cwW//Jw/BoNOH72KnIhu/EfDDDOXQrHxJ1RUtn jGZw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Dv8VfypPcSg4oEbqlBHssHaBh6nynUm3xfdBcF8NdTg=; b=VBiq3JZOxHDtBD3ZmvaEr9+Ay6AErtsHRSbeoNZd8od3Qlla5imDdxCCAb5GpRE1Rj qplmCQWR2kt2isIbvsSG0rGfmm4p1Qo6Mav+dU3fxgslqWoRTpo6Ic5CacRX6D9Qpw9g B+DaAHiUqrTMPFmAvcQ8rV1l57PiNfuoIE6+uJg/4IzsN/fNhsluseIla9OaAnNMzZyR IBw+uv2Kbdtu2goCGgOEKtsx+IuoNu6k6A0TMbmlf50i2MjkzK3EsDl5JZtsz/bVXj3M FSit9GRmjKQpThmroAx8vVu9BmbTdYm3Ii53sk3QurVQ7A7/D+8b9Si/LAGq6K47cJSS QtBw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39n50FMlO/MWsPqa4zoDNul+8e9KEEqAzpCbzVO8qSlH4Snh4u3+e7ieLzBO+DV47sDPeqFqgk5H0suJow== X-Received: by 10.84.206.37 with SMTP id f34mr25125094ple.175.1489145703619; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:35:03 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.151.1 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 03:34:43 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <20170310.080331.41692443.sthaug@nethelp.no> <8855ea43-e55b-b794-1e19-ae224cd0fdcd@gmail.com> <6bc96716-72ee-bd5c-c4c4-13f615da1a4f@gmail.com> From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 17:04:43 +0530 Message-ID: To: Erik Kline Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c146a2eaee306054a5ec0ec Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway - try it X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:35:05 -0000 --94eb2c146a2eaee306054a5ec0ec Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Even am not sure why two protocols are required for a client to work. It'll be good if a subscriber uses one protocol to get all the information that it needs to work. This is all triggered by the following problem. 1. Subscriber gets SLAAC prefix from gateway 2. Subscriber got the gateway address and other information as well. 3. Flush the addresses of the interface using command *'ip addr flush dev p34p1.106'* 4. Now run dhclient to get the address using DHCPv6. 5. Subscriber gets the prefix and is assigned to the interface but the gateway information isn't there. Due to this the subscriber will not be able to browse. Yours, Naveen. On 10 March 2017 at 16:56, Erik Kline wrote: > The RA + DHCPv6-PD mode of deployment is well-understood and actively > tested every day by literally tens of millions (or more) of IPv6-enabled > residential subscribers around the world. > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > --94eb2c146a2eaee306054a5ec0ec Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Even am not sure why two protocols are required for a clie= nt to work.=C2=A0 It'll be good if a subscriber uses one protocol to ge= t all the information that it needs to work.

This is all= triggered by the following problem.

1. Subscriber= gets SLAAC prefix from gateway
2. Subscriber got the gateway add= ress and other information as well.
3. Flush the addresses of the= interface using command 'ip addr flush dev p34p1.106'
=
4. Now run dhclient to get the address using DHCPv6.
5. Subs= criber gets the prefix and is assigned to the interface but the gateway inf= ormation isn't there.

Due to this the subscrib= er will not be able to browse.

Yours,
Naveen.

On 10 March 2017 at 16:56, Erik Kline <ek@googl= e.com> wrote:
The RA + DHCPv6-PD mode of deployment is well-understood and actively t= ested every day by literally tens of millions (or more) of IPv6-enabled res= idential subscribers around the world.

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


--94eb2c146a2eaee306054a5ec0ec-- From nobody Fri Mar 10 04:24:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4C3A7129883 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 04:24:43 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bdMweDOSW6ed for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 04:24:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from bizet.nethelp.no (bizet.nethelp.no [195.1.209.33]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 377F91298C2 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 04:24:41 -0800 (PST) Received: from localhost (bizet.nethelp.no [IPv6:2001:8c0:9e04:500::1]) by bizet.nethelp.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3515E6065; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:24:38 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:24:38 +0100 (CET) Message-Id: <20170310.132438.74693653.sthaug@nethelp.no> To: naveen.sarma@gmail.com From: sthaug@nethelp.no In-Reply-To: References: <6bc96716-72ee-bd5c-c4c4-13f615da1a4f@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Mew version 3.3 on Emacs 21.3 / Mule 5.0 (SAKAKI) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway - try it X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 12:24:43 -0000 > Even am not sure why two protocols are required for a client to work. > > It'll be good if a subscriber uses one protocol to get all the information > that it needs to work. Long discussion, lots of it in the archives already. You're not alone feeling that way. > This is all triggered by the following problem. > > 1. Subscriber gets SLAAC prefix from gateway > 2. Subscriber got the gateway address and other information as well. > 3. Flush the addresses of the interface using command *'ip addr flush dev > p34p1.106'* > 4. Now run dhclient to get the address using DHCPv6. > 5. Subscriber gets the prefix and is assigned to the interface but the > gateway information isn't there. > > Due to this the subscriber will not be able to browse. "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!" - "Then don't do that!" Why is the subscriber explicitly flushing the interface address (presumably also getting rid of the default route) and then expecting DHCPv6 to work? Steinar Haug, AS2116 From nobody Fri Mar 10 04:35:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6ACDD129952 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 04:35:08 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5AkOhcOOiGH2 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 04:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x22b.google.com (mail-pg0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 276291298C5 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 04:35:07 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id 25so38677684pgy.0 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 04:35:07 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=8xx0ApMkX1VrHuStS+U/6jOF9NII+uuKhrvAU07nCjY=; b=Z4JscPO0iGk6TRLPvyAFQwrfvLk0bhwxhVL+DE+8PfcKYC7SJvlrMQzCFJ2uPxaQ1i OCvZb6AA1l7SkJKRymy4tSMBMqOX04RJKlI6ojUHN76w204RMGnmKwH0kHXuugNo015a c+ALIqCRMJ8Kk+FNcunIz3bIib67ncbAtYJdS02BAl2AP8+gqri3zwePMt85/tZqBsP2 KJn1rWRiPE+gRaXE8IgurF02Njs552vItznN9LSWaoUABI9rSaMBOLnGaU/udw4YmWAx AoECEza1yP4wud4JYfBpyiygSb1hTcVHIO3eMP42wveNEg+u6HGNfBToQGe7uQNKnu+0 d9wg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=8xx0ApMkX1VrHuStS+U/6jOF9NII+uuKhrvAU07nCjY=; b=oUarxDT5i7lnzgAPcLkOF0yZ/T6QXhckCXRxf4LQcrwrqhEVLyPChm6OmEJTXo1WCr jMSW5Ll6vEos5+BJAPiG5tKtZMT0SYsm33P0nwxM9MhC5hpVVsZ3L+blx2Ny0/gV9MHG ixe3+aegy6jVSMvW2fLPahBfmEbchVQkpv6Lsx90SnLYU7EdMH1txhqlicYnWa8eD9HH BESDTGZwJInU32EkJE0SKMv9CpeSwTatJAMGiSm96wb+Z2YkzYEhtWe17nxmPlKXRV1V rO3EVM5DqCpI0GBweEgVOMUxKI5ahBxj4xqsMf+5mFymyolUoIxvAV5S5W3Vemc87kYl htPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39nncNfOBUb28C3XFkjq9M1AVekNv04B5atYDXsvg6Oi1LGwh49fykOe9yphbCx8yGzOxUcVTiusHHzHzw== X-Received: by 10.99.210.81 with SMTP id t17mr20437056pgi.80.1489149306738; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 04:35:06 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.151.1 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 04:34:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20170310.132438.74693653.sthaug@nethelp.no> References: <6bc96716-72ee-bd5c-c4c4-13f615da1a4f@gmail.com> <20170310.132438.74693653.sthaug@nethelp.no> From: Naveen Kottapalli Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 18:04:46 +0530 Message-ID: To: sthaug@nethelp.no Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114c3ae8721fc3054a5f9774 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway - try it X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 12:35:08 -0000 --001a114c3ae8721fc3054a5f9774 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Accidentally we flushed the addresses to test something else. But it exposed a different thing for us. Yours, Naveen. On 10 March 2017 at 17:54, wrote: > > Even am not sure why two protocols are required for a client to work. > > > > It'll be good if a subscriber uses one protocol to get all the > information > > that it needs to work. > > Long discussion, lots of it in the archives already. You're not alone > feeling that way. > > > This is all triggered by the following problem. > > > > 1. Subscriber gets SLAAC prefix from gateway > > 2. Subscriber got the gateway address and other information as well. > > 3. Flush the addresses of the interface using command *'ip addr flush dev > > p34p1.106'* > > 4. Now run dhclient to get the address using DHCPv6. > > 5. Subscriber gets the prefix and is assigned to the interface but the > > gateway information isn't there. > > > > Due to this the subscriber will not be able to browse. > > "Doctor, it hurts when I do this!" - "Then don't do that!" > > Why is the subscriber explicitly flushing the interface address > (presumably also getting rid of the default route) and then expecting > DHCPv6 to work? > > Steinar Haug, AS2116 > --001a114c3ae8721fc3054a5f9774 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Accidentally we flushed the addresses to test something el= se.=C2=A0 But it exposed a different thing for us.

Yours,
Naveen.

On 10 March 2017 at 17:54, <sthaug@nethelp= .no> wrote:
> Even am not sure why two protocols are required for a client to work= .
>
> It'll be good if a subscriber uses one protocol to get all the inf= ormation
> that it needs to work.

Long discussion, lots of it in the archives already. You're not = alone
feeling that way.

> This is all triggered by the following problem.
>
> 1. Subscriber gets SLAAC prefix from gateway
> 2. Subscriber got the gateway address and other information as well. > 3. Flush the addresses of the interface using command *'ip = addr flush dev
> p34p1.106'*
> 4. Now run dhclient to get the address using DHCPv6.<= br> > 5. Subscriber gets the prefix and is assigned to the interface but the=
> gateway information isn't there.
>
> Due to this the subscriber will not be able to browse.

"Doctor, it hurts when I do this!" - "Then don't = do that!"

Why is the subscriber explicitly flushing the interface address
(presumably also getting rid of the default route) and then expecting
DHCPv6 to work?

Steinar Haug, AS2116

--001a114c3ae8721fc3054a5f9774-- From nobody Fri Mar 10 04:40:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADB44129957 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 04:40:15 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.353 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.353 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2RiUwPNTaxGU for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 04:40:14 -0800 (PST) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDA411298CC for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 04:40:13 -0800 (PST) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v2ACeAOs027832; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:40:10 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 9CC2420762D; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:40:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 81E07207555; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:40:10 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2ACeAl6011136; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:40:10 +0100 To: Erik Kline References: <20170310.080331.41692443.sthaug@nethelp.no> <8855ea43-e55b-b794-1e19-ae224cd0fdcd@gmail.com> <6bc96716-72ee-bd5c-c4c4-13f615da1a4f@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <0bfd8ee8-6766-1f4a-73f2-bb16c9e94b3b@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:40:08 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway - try it X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 12:40:16 -0000 Le 10/03/2017 à 12:26, Erik Kline a écrit : > The RA + DHCPv6-PD mode of deployment is well-understood and > actively tested every day by literally tens of millions (or more) of > IPv6-enabled residential subscribers around the world. Yes, the RA+DHCP model can be also tried in practice immediately, although there may be some quirks with the M/O bits in RA. It is also good to know that a certain manufacturer considers making billions of M2M devices that are cheaper, less powerful, less bandwidth links, than typical cable modems or set-top boxes. These units would need less protocol software and less messages. The exponential forecasts range between a pessimistic 20 billion to an overly-optimistic 80 billion in 2020. On the longer term a more complex curve is suggested by Gartner in a Hype Cycle. These are not Human subscribers but Machines programmed by Humans. I think the three models should co-exist (DHCP+RA, RA-only, DHCP-only) - they satisfy different needs. Alex From nobody Fri Mar 10 06:45:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0D31712960C for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 06:45:38 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.321 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.321 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jisc.ac.uk header.b=ShE8ORHf; dkim=fail (1024-bit key) reason="fail (message has been altered)" header.d=jisc365.onmicrosoft.com header.b=V4rwcphA Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BeBd7u99myqT for ; 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Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:45:28 +0000 Received: from VI1PR07MB1151.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.163.168.148) by VI1PR07MB1149.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.163.168.146) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384_P384) id 15.1.961.8; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:45:27 +0000 Received: from VI1PR07MB1151.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.168.148]) by VI1PR07MB1151.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([10.163.168.148]) with mapi id 15.01.0961.017; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:45:27 +0000 From: Tim Chown To: Erik Kline Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway - try it Thread-Index: AQHSmX02ktl/iNziRUivH3L8UeSn3aGNzriAgAAe8ICAAAG6AIAAN4wA Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:45:27 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20170310.080331.41692443.sthaug@nethelp.no> <8855ea43-e55b-b794-1e19-ae224cd0fdcd@gmail.com> <6bc96716-72ee-bd5c-c4c4-13f615da1a4f@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [2001:a88:d510:1101:6d7f:5f84:dc74:2e3a] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; 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charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway - try it X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:45:38 -0000 > On 10 Mar 2017, at 11:26, Erik Kline wrote: >=20 > The RA + DHCPv6-PD mode of deployment is well-understood and actively tes= ted every day by literally tens of millions (or more) of IPv6-enabled resid= ential subscribers around the world. Somewhat propped up by those deployments being dual-stack, to be fair. 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MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jisc.ac.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Mar 2017 15:02:15.9971 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 48f9394d-8a14-4d27-82a6-f35f12361205 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR07MB1149 X-MC-Unique: 8_KmVj9_NKecL0S8sBZRHA-1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_1B4AA12B6068454ABCF394F24523E2D2jiscacuk_" Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] OT: Requesting information/experience X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 15:02:29 -0000 --_000_1B4AA12B6068454ABCF394F24523E2D2jiscacuk_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 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mail-in25.apple.com (Apple Secure Mail Relay) with SMTP id 3F.D7.01140.492E2C85; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:29:56 -0800 (PST) X-AuditID: 11ab0219-e38b39a000000474-58-58c2e294f208 Received: from nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com [17.128.115.155]) by relay7.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 22.1C.10079.492E2C85; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:29:56 -0800 (PST) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from [17.226.23.61] (unknown [17.226.23.61]) by nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170210 64bit (built Feb 10 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0OMM00DD90LVAT00@nwk-mmpp-sz11.apple.com>; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:29:55 -0800 (PST) Sender: tpauly@apple.com From: Tommy Pauly In-reply-to: Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:29:55 -0800 Message-id: References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: Philip Homburg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3263) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FCYqjvl0aEIg/dP9Cxuz7/AZHH62F5m ByaPJUt+Mnm82+QQwBTFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlbFv5SzGgkXiFct2tbM3MHYIdzFyckgImEgc 3LOGsYuRi0NIYD+jxJ5H75hhEvNmbWKFSBxilDi5+Qs7SIJXQFDix+R7LF2MHBzMAvISB8/L goSZBbQkvj9qZYGo72eSWPRlFjtIjbCAhMTmPYkQpoHEz/uZIOVsAioSx79tAFvFKWAsMe3w fmaQEhYBVYmmexoQE4UkFl/7zgix1Ebi6u+7TBDTVzBKzFz/hgUkISKgL9HyeAMrxMmyEt0L pzGDFEkILGGT2P1nH8sERuFZSK6ehXD1LCRXL2BkXsUonJuYmaObmWdkqpdYUJCTqpecn7uJ ERTWq5kkdzB+fW14iFGAg1GJh7dg/6EIIdbEsuLK3EOM0hwsSuK82fsPRggJpCeWpGanphak FsUXleakFh9iZOLglGpg5IrdlP7vpGzkAfaTv3R3friydJZpbOX9KAXDrWseGyw9JPNmZdpU ueyYtZVptaweRoIeEp6LP6lHzFqWqHU1WmnX0qXeax6KSpZ8fndT63hB2UGz12+4dDPq51S2 B/06fMN35TI+jayO8r1v1ppcWqIU5K2nm/ljW+/xOdbzrvrvk466vTxWRomlOCPRUIu5qDgR ANliwmVMAgAA X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupikeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42IRbCierTvl0aEIg5YVfBa3519gsjh9bC+z A5PHkiU/mTzebXIIYIrisklJzcksSy3St0vgyti3chZjwSLximW72tkbGDuEuxg5OSQETCTm zdrE2sXIxSEkcIhR4uTmL+wgCV4BQYkfk++xdDFycDALyEscPC8LEmYW0JL4/qiVBaK+n0li 0ZdZ7CA1wgISEpv3JEKYBhI/72eClLMJqEgc/7aBGcTmFDCWmHZ4PzNICYuAqkTTPQ2IiUIS i699Z4RYaiNx9fddJojpKxglZq5/wwKSEBHQl2h5vIEV4mRZie6F05gnMArMQnLoLIRDZyE5 dAEj8ypGgaLUnMRKc73EgoKcVL3k/NxNjOAgLEzdwdi43OoQowAHoxIPb8LGQxFCrIllxZW5 wJDgYFYS4d14HSjEm5JYWZValB9fVJqTWnyIsQro/onMUqLJ+cAIySuJNzQxMTAxNjYzNjY3 MaeKsJI4b9zrgxFCAumJJanZqakFqUUwy5k4OKUaGPdt1K+cMeWkdv2fRLbDAbIdFfW2ej3H yoW27Itzfq1edCpiQc7acice17UdhSoN2aua5ST3nqsX6LDS8uA4Kf/idk/xkaese+yvm15L Va5dUyl4ccoV5ragD6mldpte9j56+e/aFNnbgmo6/Trrs/b+2jE1adOvHeqCXjXvG7k+npq1 KGf+NSWW4oxEQy3mouJEAA4KgpudAgAA Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 17:29:59 -0000 Hi Philip, As James mentioned, getaddrinfo isn't technically an IETF standardized API. There are many networking APIs that are based on asynchronously handling DNS responses. We can certainly soften some of the language to make it clear that if your system has no such option, you are not necessarily out of spec, but if such an option is available, we believe that it SHOULD indeed be used. This fits with the Happy Eyeballs paradigm: if I am waiting for one of the DNS responses to come back, I could have already made my connection in that time, getting the user the resource loaded more quickly. To the point of how often this situation occurs, we have done a lot of measurements in our stack. The approach documented in this document is essentially the algorithm that we have implemented for Apple devices. We do observe that fairly often, when DNS results are not already cached, one result (AAAA) may be returned asynchronously, and the TCP connection can be fully established before the other result (A) is returned. Using this algorithm, even if it only helps in a small percentage of overall connections, is a big win. For those who are interested, I'd like to also point to some work going on in TAPS that build upon Happy Eyeballs to do connection racing and use asynchronous APIs to get wins not just in IPv4-vs-IPv6, but between paths, interfaces, and other protocols (and hopefully make it easier to application developers to write their networking code in the process): https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pauly-taps-guidelines-00 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-trammell-taps-post-sockets-00 Thanks, Tommy > On Mar 9, 2017, at 2:51 AM, Philip Homburg wrote: > >> Tommy Pauly and myself have written up what we've learned >> in the past few years maintaining and improving Apple's Happy Eyeballs stack, >> and submitted it as draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update. > > The draft says: Intended status: Standards Track > > With that in mind I would prefer splitting the DNS and the connection > parts over two different drafts. > > The reason is two fold: > 1) The only API that we standardized (getaddrinfo) cannot support the required > behavior. So an application would have to choose between using a standard > API or implementing happy eyeballs. > 2) In my experience, AAAA hardly ever times out. (I wanted to write 'fail', > but failure, as in not returning the correct AAAA can be close to 1%. But > as long as there is no delay, it doesn't matter for happy eyeballs). > > I think setting up tcp connections in staggered fashion is highly useful. > Writing code that gets triggered by DNS responses coming is not supported by > standard APIs and may make code needlessly complex. So we should not require > such behavior. > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Fri Mar 10 09:59:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 119EE129417 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:59:24 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.922 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.922 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=btconnect.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id v-uEK5pSk8-U for ; 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"IPv6 Operations" Sent: Friday, March 10, 2017 3:02 PM > > On 10 Mar 2017, at 10:57, t.petch > wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Tim Chown" > > Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2017 9:36 AM > > On 7 Mar 2017, at 15:43, joel jaeggli wrote: > > On 3/2/17 9:40 AM, Fred Baker wrote: > ISOC has asked me to put together a report for them to publish in June > regarding the state of IPv6 deployment. I'd appreciate any help folks > on this list can give me, but I must ask that you reply privately, as > it is off-topic. I'll include some notes ISOC gave me about the > intended report, so you can see the objective and the kind of > information I'm looking for. > This sounds like a fairly worthwhile activity, I think a key > distinction > compared to attempting something similar under the ruberic of v6ops > other than timelilyness is a lack of need to stake out a consensus > position WRT matters of opinion. > > Indeed. > > One of the things one sees is the variety in the numbers, depending on > the measurement methods. Some analysis of that would be interesting. > > For example, for the UK: > > Google, 17% (to their content) > > https://www.google.com/intl/en/ipv6/statistics.html#tab=per-country-ipv6 > -adoption&tab=per-country-ipv6-adoption > > Akamai, 11% (to their CDN) > > https://www.akamai.com/uk/en/our-thinking/state-of-the-internet-report/s > tate-of-the-internet-ipv6-adoption-visualization.jsp > > APNIC, 25% (by use of paid adverts, I believe) > https://stats.labs.apnic.net/ipv6/GB > > which sounds great until you drill down and see that BSKYB is 88.88% and > realise that that is for subscription TV - especially Association > Football - and not for a traditional ISP. > > No, Sky provide broadband to their customers too - 4.5M residences, 93% enabled. > > Updates from them, and BT, at http://www.ipv6.org.uk/2016/08/31/ipv6-council-meeting-october-2016/. Tim Simon forwarded me a link to the BT announcement which says 'their roll-out of the Internet Protocol v6 (IPv6) addressing standard was completed for “all BT Broadband lines” in October 2016 ' and I note the wording; looking at the announcement itself, it says that “all BT Broadband lines” means what BT always means by that phrase, namely domestic use only, not business users (which I am). That choice seems odd to me that they expect to do more with domestic users who likely have never heard of it as opposed to business users who I would expect to be more clued up. Ah well, I will have to stop saying that there is no public IPv6 service from a UK ISP; shame, I rather enjoyed saying it. Tom Petch > Take a major UK ISP, such as TalkTalk and you see that 'IPv6 Capable', > separated out by ASN, ranges from 0.00% to 0.01%, which bears out my > experience of the availability of IPv6 in the UK; ask a salesperson for > it and they will ask you how to spell it:-) > > BT are done in the network, about to do rolling HomeHub updates to turn it on; if you plug your own router in on BT, it just works. > > Their BT Smart Hub has it on by default already for users with that. > > The major mobile provider, Vodafone, reaches the dizzy heights of 0.73% > availability. > > EE have approaching 1M IPv6-only handsets, see https://indico.uknof.org.uk/event/38/other-view?view=standard at the 14:15 slot. > > The only place I have seen IPv6 used in anger is for outdoor sporting > venues connecting the various buildings back to the main office. > > Ah well, back to academia of rfc4291bis. > > Heh, I have 645 unread emails there… good luck! > > Tim > > > Tom Petch > > *Project Overview* > > The State of IPv6 Deployment Report project aims to produce a > thorough, well-presented and impactful report on the state of IPv6 > deployment in time for the anniversary of World IPv6 Launch on June > 6^th , 2017. > > *Project Goals* > > The goals of the project are as follows: > > To document the current state of IPv6 deployment, as thoroughly > and objectively as possible > > To provide a one-stop-shop for someone interested in > understanding the state of IPv6 deployment progress in mid-2017 > > To stimulate further deployment: "If you think IPv6 isn't > happening and that you don't need to act, here's how wrong you are." > > it strikes me a likely that the pool of doubters is not likely to be > swayed out of their positions on the rogers curve by a paper. market > signals that constrain future choices on the other hand do. > > To pull together into one place all the various IPv6 deployment > statistics that are scattered across the Internet > > There are a couple of very good lists already, which you probably > already know of, but see > http://www.worldipv6launch.org/measurements/ > and > > https://labs.ripe.net/Members/mirjam/content-ipv6-measurement-compilatio > n > > To provide a reference point and baseline for future reports so > that we can chart growth in IPv6 deployment in the months and years > ahead > > To document some of the innovations that are happening as well as > some of the challenges > > I personally don't value innovation as much as stability with respect > to > base specifications. if it means distilling out the pieces w find hard > to or don't use or which don't offer the utility that was assumed > great, > a key innovation is shedding the things you don't actually need. > > To identify and discuss the gaps in IPv6 deployment: where are the > pockets of non-deployment? > > *Audiences* > > The report has two primary audiences as follows: > > Executive Summary: Targeted at decision makers (business and > policy) wanting to get a quick feel for the state of IPv6 deployment > as it might impact their business and what they should do/think about > it. This section of the report will also help technology journalists > writing stories about IPv6. > > Body of the report: Targeted at engineers interested in a > comprehensive picture of the state of IPv6 deployment, including some > projections, recommendations and pointers to further resources. > > Much of the content will point to existing reports and content (and if > you have favorite content to point to, please share), but hopefully > pull it together in a way that makes the intended points. Specific > content that folks here may be able to give me or point me to include > operator case studies (timeline, what you did, what worked, what > didn't), measurement methodologies (what was measured and how it was > measured), specifics if they can be divulged (traffic ratios, customer > numbers, ratios for dual-stacked customers), regional differences, > specific applications (DNS, Email, web, etc), services (cloud, > hosting, mail, geolocation, security, etc), IoT reality, ongoing > incentives and challenges, and so on. > the existance and feasibility of single-stacked edges is probably > interesting. I hear that a fair amount when dealing with future mobile > or stb/cpe upgrade cycles. > > Some reporting on IPv6-only deployment at the edges would be good, and > its practicality, whether in mobile networks (where most of it seems to > be) or elsewhere. > > Tim > > > > > From nobody Fri Mar 10 10:13:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66D621296A7 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:13:29 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.499 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.499 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PHk4tbIWVKPc for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:13:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-ua0-x230.google.com (mail-ua0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D670129692 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:13:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-ua0-x230.google.com with SMTP id f54so117410821uaa.1 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:13:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=QHIdppM6ga4Vlz6XWZxTHeiiuW1PgiQTVeQAYZHDZeg=; b=nwpZXUpITQ98LN5CZguNx3CegKEm3cnUac25BlM0bHcN5HVet58sBwy41NvrUq8h2A sFRD2iggMWoass/E99BOFjTZoK/ugeSGPzk3VSPznbCQuu9kZ4Rn3PzHh0UIoa2/AoTb bJmiaJLtr0k+Ds6jd+p/OVByye6aAJgYnqw2E3EOuov0j5AS9d7Xk8krghyQ8BhW6nwK GldMubQQQEKW979W3LLgmrjxytvbjO+gEDJ68acYRu+O3Hkdwekznl/G55F2CJaSLxPG lqoiIQOvnx/Kcr2AQb90PmHYKNVfoQRPJ5EFStaWbbIl1ACp68Rx/SjStIlYxlqaHPlA vG2g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=QHIdppM6ga4Vlz6XWZxTHeiiuW1PgiQTVeQAYZHDZeg=; b=N11V0i6LK7mGSw80taIVFK+3yFSdKVdxjmCNeUyunbLQEgCB3vkD2dVT2L9kiVwArI zX9KCI1sutgBr3GXbwrcx2wJ10jsIF/OZABFPnKDefXyjO3MWkaJ3A0kl3u58HY1IVMs Hf4PguNI63AbEySwB8Gl78duYG7hWjMRxT+eCi53OyeE22O4Hkya8vrKQsbnjVkp9Vcz CeCRnQaCIyo7REfDkyVImYd5FknfnhBaIk9AuSMqI/6Uaarovk1EQlCLCqrKSLKTKaNP 5XQ1I4TUh+PwPHBSDOQAwjFgLhHuZPl/Tdk9hQXKZ0q2DPJ2ZufXsHEljvhsJVNtfX6Z rQug== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lz5RWKJmQgVyPXZYZVc93IIvp7PmVwwlqTIt1bKZWz7bujWVxjbHP4uN2DF+cBezpwmpT3CMH+/ZCDCQ== X-Received: by 10.176.25.29 with SMTP id v29mr10019322uag.157.1489169607484; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:13:27 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.36.144 with HTTP; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 10:12:57 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <20170310.132438.74693653.sthaug@nethelp.no> References: <6bc96716-72ee-bd5c-c4c4-13f615da1a4f@gmail.com> <20170310.132438.74693653.sthaug@nethelp.no> From: Mark Smith Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 05:12:57 +1100 Message-ID: To: sthaug@nethelp.no Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway - try it X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 18:13:29 -0000 On 10 March 2017 at 23:24, wrote: >> Even am not sure why two protocols are required for a client to work. >> >> It'll be good if a subscriber uses one protocol to get all the information >> that it needs to work. > > Long discussion, lots of it in the archives already. You're not alone > feeling that way. So why haven't we haven't we replaced literally every protocol (e.g., BGP, OSPF, IPv6, HTTP, SMTP, SNMP, GRE, PPP etc.) with a single protocol, consisting of just TLVs. I'd say 128 bit type and 128 bit length fields could probably accommodate all needs, although that would be a constraint too. That would be simpler wouldn't it? I consider the problem of configuring link-layer specific layer 3 parameters (e.g., link prefix, MTU, ND timers) to be a separate and different problem from configuring application layer parameters that are or can be host specific (e.g., DNS, NTP, timezone, geolocation etc.), and independent of a specific link-layer's layer 3 parameters. RAs are solving a problem that is local to a specific link, DHCPv6 is solving a problem that is not coupled to a link or its layer 3 parameters. These two problems were addressed by a single solution in IPv4. Host parameter configuration might appear to be a single problem, however we have different sets of parameters at different layers ("different sets" is another give away that you may be dealing with different problems.). When you start with a clean slate, you get the opportunity to say, "we're really dealing with two separate problems here, so two separate solutions are better", instead of saying "this is how we've always done it, lets also continue to also preserve the drawbacks of the existing solution." Regards, Mark. 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spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jisc.ac.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Mar 2017 19:22:58.4733 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 48f9394d-8a14-4d27-82a6-f35f12361205 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM3PR07MB1138 X-MC-Unique: UdJuQYucOF2C92sTfxSWYw-1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7C9292B3B4914962A9829CDAA648C772jiscacuk_" Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations Subject: Re: [v6ops] OT: Requesting information/experience X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 19:23:09 -0000 --_000_7C9292B3B4914962A9829CDAA648C772jiscacuk_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 SGksDQoNCk9uIDEwIE1hciAyMDE3LCBhdCAxNzo1MiwgdC5wZXRjaCA8aWV0ZmNAYnRjb25uZWN0 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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UHmClWkrAm7E; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:31:06 -0800 (PST) Received: from mail-pg0-x22f.google.com (mail-pg0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 635E11296F5; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:31:06 -0800 (PST) Received: by mail-pg0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id 77so42096883pgc.1; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:31:06 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=U/keh6CNDXu7D2uULFdmBpwHGeTsZ1RmZwbLGCiLpxI=; b=AGlAh6bxwv6bRkbYkEOhBuFQqRtxwm4Ag3oxrvHGMEALj8YmeuxakppmB7lEO5gcUR fK4hRF1brhqiUhjYYYTi6glwZMzZW52cUHH34nBXwxV17y8FxZKnxM1aMVu3/lHg9XiR w7OjVYf5ZAC88k/pEx/1WAxsM6382t0Rh6l9TP7WuwQ4HYE7c7wfYKIp4yncYlL7vJQ/ 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from [192.168.178.26] ([118.149.108.74]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 80sm20215851pgd.39.2017.03.10.11.31.03 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:31:05 -0800 (PST) To: Naveen Kottapalli , sthaug@nethelp.no References: <20170310.080331.41692443.sthaug@nethelp.no> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <268482ea-d5c1-ba1c-4c89-e0abdc709c96@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 11 Mar 2017 08:31:11 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list , 6man WG Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 19:31:07 -0000 On 10/03/2017 20:43, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > +v6ops, 6man > > Yours, > Naveen. > > On 10 March 2017 at 12:41, Naveen Kottapalli wrote: > >> Okay. Can you tell which parameters of RA will convey the default gateway >> address? You need to read RFC4861 to understand the relevant details of RA. >> Also, can you point me to the document where it is mentioned that >> a DHCPv6 subscriber has to use RS-RA for resolving gateway address? Section 7.2.2 of RFC6434 explains this (but the wording could be clearer, perhaps). The basic point is that RFC4861 is effectively mandatory and DHCPv6 is optional. You are not the only person who thinks this is a gap in DHCPv6. Brian From nobody Fri Mar 10 11:48:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63BEB1299A8; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:48:05 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.523 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.523 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YwL3GjG7Z4a4; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 11:48:04 -0800 (PST) Received: from alln-iport-6.cisco.com (alln-iport-6.cisco.com [173.37.142.93]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-SEED-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2137D129998; 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10 Mar 2017 19:48:03 +0000 Received: from XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (xch-aln-001.cisco.com [173.36.7.11]) by alln-core-9.cisco.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2AJm3LH023328 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Fri, 10 Mar 2017 19:48:03 GMT Received: from xch-aln-003.cisco.com (173.36.7.13) by XCH-ALN-001.cisco.com (173.36.7.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1210.3; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:48:02 -0600 Received: from xch-aln-003.cisco.com ([173.36.7.13]) by XCH-ALN-003.cisco.com ([173.36.7.13]) with mapi id 15.00.1210.000; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:48:02 -0600 From: "Bernie Volz (volz)" To: Brian E Carpenter , Naveen Kottapalli , "sthaug@nethelp.no" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway Thread-Index: AQHSmWR8wotauR0xoEuRbV4A/hR6rqGOCqaA//+mxQiAASoggP//sOMA Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 19:48:02 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20170310.080331.41692443.sthaug@nethelp.no> <268482ea-d5c1-ba1c-4c89-e0abdc709c96@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <268482ea-d5c1-ba1c-4c89-e0abdc709c96@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1f.0.170216 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.98.1.196] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <867912100F86EC459B6564F51FC5F34C@emea.cisco.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Cc: "dhcwg@ietf.org" , v6ops list , 6man WG Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 19:48:05 -0000 PiAgICBZb3UgYXJlIG5vdCB0aGUgb25seSBwZXJzb24gd2hvIHRoaW5rcyB0aGlzIGlzIGEgZ2Fw IGluIERIQ1B2Ni4NCg0KQXMgYSBESEMgV0cgY28tY2hhaXIsIGlmIHY2b3BzIGFuZCA2bWFuIGJl bGlldmUgdGhpcyBJUyBzb21ldGhpbmcgdGhhdCBzaG91bGQgYmUgYWRkcmVzc2VkIGluIHRoZSBE SENQdjYgcHJvdG9jb2wsIHdlIGNhbiBjZXJ0YWluIGRpc2N1c3Mgd2l0aCBvdXIgQUQgdG8gdGFr ZSBpdCBvbi4gSW4gdGhlIHBhc3QsIGl0IHNlZW1lZCB0aGUgdmlldyBmcm9tIHRoZXNlIFdHcyAo cGVyaGFwcyBtb3N0bHkgNm1hbikgd2FzIHRvIGxlYXZlIGl0IGZvciBSQSB0byBjb252ZXkgdGhl IGRlZmF1bHQgZ2F0ZXdheS4NCg0KLSBCZXJuaWUNCg0KT24gMy8xMC8xNywgMjozMSBQTSwgIkJy aWFuIEUgQ2FycGVudGVyIiA8YnJpYW4uZS5jYXJwZW50ZXJAZ21haWwuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCg0K ICAgIE9uIDEwLzAzLzIwMTcgMjA6NDMsIE5hdmVlbiBLb3R0YXBhbGxpIHdyb3RlOg0KICAgID4g K3Y2b3BzLCA2bWFuDQogICAgPiANCiAgICA+IFlvdXJzLA0KICAgID4gTmF2ZWVuLg0KICAgID4g DQogICAgPiBPbiAxMCBNYXJjaCAyMDE3IGF0IDEyOjQxLCBOYXZlZW4gS290dGFwYWxsaSA8bmF2 ZWVuLnNhcm1hQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQogICAgPiANCiAgICA+PiBPa2F5LiAgQ2FuIHlv dSB0ZWxsIHdoaWNoIHBhcmFtZXRlcnMgb2YgUkEgd2lsbCBjb252ZXkgdGhlIGRlZmF1bHQgZ2F0 ZXdheQ0KICAgID4+IGFkZHJlc3M/ICANCiAgICANCiAgICBZb3UgbmVlZCB0byByZWFkIFJGQzQ4 NjEgdG8gdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB0aGUgcmVsZXZhbnQgZGV0YWlscyBvZiBSQS4NCiAgICANCiAgICA+ PiBBbHNvLCBjYW4geW91IHBvaW50IG1lIHRvIHRoZSBkb2N1bWVudCB3aGVyZSBpdCBpcyBtZW50 aW9uZWQgdGhhdA0KICAgID4+IGEgREhDUHY2IHN1YnNjcmliZXIgaGFzIHRvIHVzZSBSUy1SQSBm b3IgcmVzb2x2aW5nIGdhdGV3YXkgYWRkcmVzcz8NCiAgICANCiAgICBTZWN0aW9uIDcuMi4yIG9m IFJGQzY0MzQgZXhwbGFpbnMgdGhpcyAoYnV0IHRoZSB3b3JkaW5nIGNvdWxkIGJlIGNsZWFyZXIs IHBlcmhhcHMpLg0KICAgIFRoZSBiYXNpYyBwb2ludCBpcyB0aGF0IFJGQzQ4NjEgaXMgZWZmZWN0 aXZlbHkgbWFuZGF0b3J5IGFuZCBESENQdjYgaXMgb3B0aW9uYWwuDQogICAgDQogICAgWW91IGFy ZSBub3QgdGhlIG9ubHkgcGVyc29uIHdobyB0aGlua3MgdGhpcyBpcyBhIGdhcCBpbiBESENQdjYu DQogICAgDQogICAgICAgQnJpYW4NCiAgICANCiAgICBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KICAgIHY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KICAgIHY2b3Bz QGlldGYub3JnDQogICAgaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby92Nm9w cw0KICAgIA0KDQo= From nobody Fri Mar 10 13:11:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 402BF1293F3; 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Fri, 10 Mar 2017 13:11:29 -0800 (PST) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3E669B1928C; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 22:11:27 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <3F64E796-5126-4405-8A81-AD9BAB6B7838@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F94854D2-09AA-43B9-82C0-6A1D6CE5B608"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 22:11:27 +0100 In-Reply-To: To: "Bernie Volz (volz)" References: <20170310.080331.41692443.sthaug@nethelp.no> <268482ea-d5c1-ba1c-4c89-e0abdc709c96@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: v6ops list , 6man WG , "dhcwg@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] DHCPv6 subscriber learning default gateway X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 21:11:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F94854D2-09AA-43B9-82C0-6A1D6CE5B608 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> You are not the only person who thinks this is a gap in DHCPv6. >=20 > As a DHC WG co-chair, if v6ops and 6man believe this IS something that = should be addressed in the DHCPv6 protocol, we can certain discuss with = our AD to take it on. In the past, it seemed the view from these WGs = (perhaps mostly 6man) was to leave it for RA to convey the default = gateway. if the only tool you have is a hammer... stop beating a dead horse. it hurts. Ole --Apple-Mail=_F94854D2-09AA-43B9-82C0-6A1D6CE5B608 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYwxZ/AAoJEL7aWKiYQt9222AP/AqLQWnD2pFlPhc8X/jbE3/E ovYm/QHVvgZNRQUB47IMP1Xj2q1jsVVTrXCO+KpEZ3iyzUpa+cfyphGJ4CDBL3hf 7jzEl+tZu8TqOSJQ7dmjIr29NAlfJxcni/vtZ47qB+NXIEHgsp8RVGXCXHhYdPlW 7bGk//aokbyxE8rSYzdkJD6j5W6EqhZe65/9YQvwiu2P2SZt79BkB79ea7irj0Sa Qhd+xJdjg+geRTEaPAQq8eD7BE31c8/dcrSsDt8g3SZFrBVn+oRz/Jlv0hf+sRLR gPeDtF6pGYjVjkxmWFTIZ2hxtMFtQCUI29gM7wKDc8PwMV+yhIPZmfZ5MYOHgfTJ jfhgeTaApnSGK1V+Ee9zgdtOkJYA5heTbhf73QtK0/L2pI1aWj04AmNLC7yNUuQI k+Fjv0AdjkLVZTibOtI3laBIgUD9swdOnhyc3GbKzSnozp/oVkxgBxkbtmbsXX1J gX9Y+M3YILIaXs27RqXNlWmtgni6KMWNIi09T0K8bp87wjdqIQlmxHpI9IilSOZR 7gJ6bY5wyuf9QBmsdT/ectgBlTrQjZaV0ds2Muqn2Qgjiqb3kuuLfixMeM5kv5Xt WgViSP1K2dFkUwiwjdr1X85kjxrh7fMaXK1+LzVW2RsiblWd0PkTFLgDqB4zsGTg 7bkVd14txlUsl3EY2PJ+ =UTOM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F94854D2-09AA-43B9-82C0-6A1D6CE5B608-- From nobody Fri Mar 10 14:54:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CCA11129441 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:54:40 -0800 (PST) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7vzsDkS3-e5u for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:54:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18137129486 for ; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 14:54:35 -0800 (PST) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #127) id m1cmTQX-0000IcC; Fri, 10 Mar 2017 23:54:25 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:29:55 -0800 ." Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 23:54:22 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 10 Mar 2017 22:54:41 -0000 In your letter dated Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:29:55 -0800 you wrote: >We can certainly soften some of the language to make it clear that if >your system has no such option, you are not necessarily out of spec, but if su >ch an option is available, we believe that it SHOULD indeed be used. This fits > with the Happy Eyeballs paradigm: if I am waiting for one of the DNS response >s to come back, I could have already made my connection in that time, getting >the user the resource loaded more quickly. If the DNS requirements can be toned down to the point that an application can use getaddrinfo if that fits the application, then that's fine with me. From nobody Sun Mar 12 20:53:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1187F1294A1 for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:53:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id koec2CtENGXp for ; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:53:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-in5.apple.com (mail-out5.apple.com [17.151.62.27]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0544A1289C4 for ; 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Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:53:16 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11973e13-20aae9a00000286e-88-58c617ac9f61 Received: from koseret (koseret.apple.com [17.151.62.39]) by relay6.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id BD.01.18018.CA716C85; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:53:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_4zZlNmQ2Kr7c5LOps90sow)" Received: from [17.153.25.77] (unknown [17.153.25.77]) by koseret.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170210 64bit (built Feb 10 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0OMQ00E7QISQG660@koseret.apple.com> for v6ops@ietf.org; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Sender: dschinazi@apple.com From: David Schinazi Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:53:13 -0700 References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> To: IPv6 Operations In-reply-to: Message-id: <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAYpbtG/FiEwdu/Jhanj+1ldmD0WLLk J1MAYxSXTUpqTmZZapG+XQJXxsWO+0wFr+UqZp/axdLAeEuqi5GTQ0LARKJr/WQmEFtIYC+j xOYnSjDxI+s3MULEVzFKTL1uDGLzCghK/Jh8jwXEZhYIk5jc9Jm9i5ELqGYak8T2jxNYQRLC AtISXRfuAtkcHGwCWhIH1hiBmMICBhI/72eCmCwCqhK7p6dCdLYwSazbugbsBBEBFYkpZ+6z gdicAsYSS14+ZoNYayMxs3cZM8RpshKfnv8EWyshsIFNYuOvqywTGAVnITlvFpLzIGwtie+P WoHiHEC2vMTB87IQYU2JZ/c+QZVoSzx5d4F1ASPbKkah3MTMHN3MPFO9xIKCnFS95PzcTYyg wJ5uJ7yD8fQqq0OMAhyMSjy8G2YdjRBiTSwrrsw9xCjNwaIkzrtgyuEIIYH0xJLU7NTUgtSi +KLSnNTiQ4xMHJxSDYwmF5X1xB/t2zZp3i+ZfewlUeZv1Zy+cFxuMn7k05gTrGUk5GvGun3L nqqbj46bLg36PSm9natxp5rtFvNdLttiz59Jnj1XRj9ov3F7rc+DLYtdd7gwcuTXHC75Z2ot oFd+7grLDhtFh2lmW1fd3LdpX+xNfulz/1YlXY/K5K1vSZh8Lyd97zElluKMREMt5qLiRAAP 3Xj5TQIAAA== X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrKIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiON1OXXeN+LEIg5+rNCxOH9vL7MDosWTJ T6YAxigum5TUnMyy1CJ9uwSujIsd95kKXstVzD61i6WB8ZZUFyMnh4SAicSR9ZsYQWwhgVWM ElOvG4PYvAKCEj8m32MBsZkFwiQmN31m72LkAqqZxiSx/eMEVpCEsIC0RNeFu0A2BwebgJbE gTVGIKawgIHEz/uZICaLgKrE7umpEJ0tTBLrtq5hAukUEVCRmHLmPhuIzSlgLLHk5WM2iLU2 EjN7lzFDnCYr8en5T/YJjHyzkFw0C8lFELaWxPdHrUBxDiBbXuLgeVmIsKbEs3ufoEq0JZ68 u8C6gJFtFaNAUWpOYqWZXmJBQU6qXnJ+7iZGUCg2FEbtYGxYbnWIUYCDUYmHd8OsoxFCrIll xZW5hxglOJiVRHjNuI5FCPGmJFZWpRblxxeV5qQWH2KcyAj05ERmKdHkfGCk5JXEG5qYGJgY G5sZG5ubmNNSWEmcV2fW4QghgfTEktTs1NSC1CKYo5g4OKUaGBk3n9SIYLn2Q2ej4OpoJ9mX 61cIe37axnajh4GfI2bLxNmRs/OW2xzim2dxc5GlQdmGRkELph1xi3YkrWTZwJW7lJd7qbmI 33ejS+/iMuetudFWc75o5rQZIe75B5xvLNhQevXHl89xNeIPjh//6890e0awpc+/LwIK+YJv 9LUufrLYMPtLzhQlluKMREMt5qLiRAC5lbJYuAIAAA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 03:53:18 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_4zZlNmQ2Kr7c5LOps90sow) Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Hi everyone, Thanks a lot for the comments and feedback. We've incorporated them into -01, please let us know if they were properly addressed. https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-01.txt Regards, David Schinazi > On Mar 10, 2017, at 14:54, Philip Homburg wrote: > > In your letter dated Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:29:55 -0800 you wrote: >> We can certainly soften some of the language to make it clear that if >> your system has no such option, you are not necessarily out of spec, but if su >> ch an option is available, we believe that it SHOULD indeed be used. This fits >> with the Happy Eyeballs paradigm: if I am waiting for one of the DNS response >> s to come back, I could have already made my connection in that time, getting >> the user the resource loaded more quickly. > > If the DNS requirements can be toned down to the point that an application > can use getaddrinfo if that fits the application, then that's fine > with me. > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --Boundary_(ID_4zZlNmQ2Kr7c5LOps90sow) Content-type: text/html; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi everyone,

Thanks a lot for the comments and feedback.
We've incorporated them into -01, please let us know if they = were properly addressed.
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-ey= eballs-update-01.txt

Regards,
David Schinazi


On = Mar 10, 2017, at 14:54, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-6@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:

In = your letter dated Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:29:55 -0800 you wrote:
We can certainly soften = some of the language to make it clear that if
your system = has no such option, you are not necessarily out of spec, but if su
ch an option is available, we believe that it SHOULD indeed = be used. This fits
with the Happy Eyeballs paradigm: if I = am waiting for one of the DNS response
s to come back, I = could have already made my connection in that time, getting
the user the resource loaded more quickly.

If the DNS requirements can be = toned down to the point that an application
can use = getaddrinfo if that fits the application, then that's fine
with me.


_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

= --Boundary_(ID_4zZlNmQ2Kr7c5LOps90sow)-- From nobody Sun Mar 12 21:09:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57A221294A1; Sun, 12 Mar 2017 21:09:31 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.47.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148937817128.24766.14747757924061025958@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sun, 12 Mar 2017 21:09:31 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 04:09:31 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations of the IETF. Title : Unique IPv6 Prefix Per Host Authors : John Jason Brzozowski Gunter Van De Velde Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02.txt Pages : 8 Date : 2017-03-12 Abstract: In some IPv6 environments the need has arisen for hosts to be able to utilise a unique IPv6 prefix even though the link or media may be shared. Typically hosts (subscribers) on a shared network, either wired or wireless, such as Ethernet, WiFi, etc., will acquire unique IPv6 addresses from a common IPv6 prefix that is allocated or assigned for use on a specific link. In most deployments today IPv6 address assignment from a single IPv6 prefix on a shared network is done by either using IPv6 stateless address auto-configuration (SLAAC) and/or stateful DHCPv6. While this is still viable and operates as designed there are some large scale environments where this concept introduces significant performance challenges and implications, specifically related to IPv6 router and neighbor discovery. This document outlines an approach utilising existing IPv6 protocols to allow hosts to be assigned a unique IPv6 prefix (instead of a unique IPv6 address from a shared IPv6 prefix). Benefits of a unique IPv6 prefix compared to a unique IPv6 address from the service provider are going from improved subscriber isolation to enhanced subscriber management. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 13 05:49:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72CAF1295CE for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 05:49:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UvcGUZUJufU0 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 05:49:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91D471295C6 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 05:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #127) id m1cnPPa-0000H0C; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:49:18 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Sun, 12 Mar 2017 20:53:13 -0700 ." <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:49:16 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:49:31 -0000 > > We've incorporated them into -01, please let us know if they > were properly addressed. In my opinion, there is no justification for declaring a single threaded C application that uses getaddrinfo non-compliant. So this draft doesn't address my concerns. Just calling getaddrinfo should be enough. From nobody Mon Mar 13 06:17:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19BD912960B for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 06:17:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -14.522 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-14.522 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001, USER_IN_DEF_DKIM_WL=-7.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=cisco.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vEBSHmsfkgbw for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 06:17:18 -0700 (PDT) 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08:14:24 -0500 From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" To: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02.txt Thread-Index: AQHSm/u8jrvPABEv2Ue1K6bkMsEMgA== Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:14:24 +0000 Message-ID: <40865787-6318-4C99-B1F1-8EFC1E146533@cisco.com> References: <148937817128.24766.14747757924061025958@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <148937817128.24766.14747757924061025958@ietfa.amsl.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: user-agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1f.0.170216 x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.18.255.108] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion 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ESMTP id 7DE991295E0 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 06:28:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EK9_vnqRylZG for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 06:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5404D1295E3 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 06:28:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 0D3FCAC; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:28:23 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1489411703; bh=pyo5O0k+nNDvR7neUs7fj/ZZ+U9M/ErnF0N2RyB4N9g=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=mqZTGMkTDq/M5B7ysZW6PvLydx/Lq24TVFtnyCnjsbnwnMMxwEbIu5qaA+44mgPDy g4Cx+9esCwfmDtVD2nFV6RXs1cbMBefsZTmIm9J85ipQVD2ySWvKdRo6ZdNFNXazPH Vj27SjhG0xoJfZ1Ct62tnqVm4q/mG0piJPKs7C8E= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 09FF7A2; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:28:23 +0100 (CET) Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:28:23 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" In-Reply-To: <40865787-6318-4C99-B1F1-8EFC1E146533@cisco.com> Message-ID: References: <148937817128.24766.14747757924061025958@ietfa.amsl.com> <40865787-6318-4C99-B1F1-8EFC1E146533@cisco.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-137064504-584012218-1489411703=:30226" Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:28:27 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---137064504-584012218-1489411703=:30226 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Mon, 13 Mar 2017, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) wrote: > Given that each UE gets a unique /64 prefix, it should be reasonable to not mandate UE to do DAD by default (and rather be left optional, depending on the deployment needs). > > DAD would fail only if /64 prefix assigned to the UE wasn’t unique, in which case, any/every address formulated by the UE would continue to fail. But if the assumption is that each prefix is unique, then there is no point in exposing the entire shared network with the DAD messages from every UE for every address. We gain _nothing_. > > > IMO, if the assumption is invalid, then this should really call for DPD (Duplicate Prefix Detection), not DAD. ☺ Topic for another draft, I suppose. We, the authors of https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-pioxfolks-6man-pio-exclusive-bit-01 believe we're trying to address this use-case. This is done in 6MAN. If you're interested, please show support there. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se ---137064504-584012218-1489411703=:30226-- From nobody Mon Mar 13 06:39:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C863B129622 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 06:39:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 90acH5qguDa4 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 06:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5155D12961D for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 06:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2DDcxIR018950 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:38:59 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 3F05E20BBFB for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:38:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 351FE20BBE4 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:38:59 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2DDcwtm021702 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:38:59 +0100 To: "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <148937817128.24766.14747757924061025958@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:38:54 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <148937817128.24766.14747757924061025958@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] multiple-ipv6-prefixes-per-host X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 13:39:04 -0000 Terminology: you are using the term "user equipment (UE)" in the document. That is a 3GPP term. WiFi hotspots dont say "UE" but rather "Clients" or "STAs". Using "UE" makes think that the cellular network should give a Unique IPv6 Prefix per Host. And that is wrong. There should be more, even though each could be unique in terms of scope. Also, you are using the term "subscriber". That again is a Home-specific, or cellular-specific term. It is not a WiFi term. And there again it is wrong to assign a Unique IPv6 Prefix per Host. There should be more. Finally, you are saying: > The architected result of designing the RA as documented above is > that each UE/subscriber gets its own unique /64 IPv6 prefix This is wrong. That prefix should not be limited to being only a /64. It could be a /63 or a /65. Only if you are sure that this BCP is going to be used on Ethernet can you limit its scope to /64. Alex Le 13/03/2017 05:09, internet-drafts@ietf.org a crit : > > A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. > This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations of the IETF. > > Title : Unique IPv6 Prefix Per Host > Authors : John Jason Brzozowski > Gunter Van De Velde > Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02.txt > Pages : 8 > Date : 2017-03-12 > > Abstract: > In some IPv6 environments the need has arisen for hosts to be able to > utilise a unique IPv6 prefix even though the link or media may be > shared. Typically hosts (subscribers) on a shared network, either > wired or wireless, such as Ethernet, WiFi, etc., will acquire unique > IPv6 addresses from a common IPv6 prefix that is allocated or > assigned for use on a specific link. > > In most deployments today IPv6 address assignment from a single IPv6 > prefix on a shared network is done by either using IPv6 stateless > address auto-configuration (SLAAC) and/or stateful DHCPv6. While > this is still viable and operates as designed there are some large > scale environments where this concept introduces significant > performance challenges and implications, specifically related to IPv6 > router and neighbor discovery. > > This document outlines an approach utilising existing IPv6 protocols > to allow hosts to be assigned a unique IPv6 prefix (instead of a > unique IPv6 address from a shared IPv6 prefix). Benefits of a unique > IPv6 prefix compared to a unique IPv6 address from the service > provider are going from improved subscriber isolation to enhanced > subscriber management. > > > The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host/ > > There's also a htmlized version available at: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 > > A diff from the previous version is available at: > https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 > > > Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission > until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. > > Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > > _______________________________________________ > I-D-Announce mailing list > I-D-Announce@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce > Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html > or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > From nobody Mon Mar 13 07:05:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FBA1294F0 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 07:05:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nokia.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pxiKG1x2j0wc for ; Mon, 13 Mar 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tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3fLdAvAQVFsb for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AEFD129705 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2DGJtPL035270; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:19:55 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 0054220BF4D; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:19:55 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5054202CF4; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:19:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2DGJsgY005191; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:19:54 +0100 To: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE)" , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <148937817128.24766.14747757924061025958@ietfa.amsl.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <41e1221d-2c73-8f8a-b87b-68153b42dc74@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:19:49 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [ALU] Re: multiple-ipv6-prefixes-per-host X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:19:58 -0000 Hi, Please let me clarify. Le 13/03/2017 à 15:05, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE) a écrit : > I believe that consistent terminology for identifying a device that > is connected. In our case we choose UE (User Equipment). It does not > feel incorrect to me, particular knowing that in many situation this > is used in community Wifi (or even LAN) use-case scenario’s, and > there we actually do speak about UEs. (in case of tiny home Wifi > installations it is wifi clients indeed, but in that case the > security and operational requirements are totally different also) In case of home networks: do you consider assigning a single /64 to a home? > The size /64 was selected because that is what most UEs seem to > expect and behave correctly with, from address assignment > perspective. An end device yes, acts perfectly when it receives a /64. But typical Smartphones, tablets, Personal Computers have multiple interfaces. They are not end devices. They need to receive a /60 on one side and deliver /64s on the other side. SmartPhone plus SmartWatch can not work if all the Smartphone gets is a single /64. > Deviating from this does not seem something that is promoted often > and opens a can of worms regarding the perfect size of prefix length. > It seems that for Community LAN/Wifi networks selecting /64 is a very > reasonable choice. If a Hotspot Router receives a /64 then it will have a hard time offering another /64 to the WiFi Clients that connect to it. Yours, Alex > > G/ > > > > On 13/03/2017, 14:38, "v6ops on behalf of Alexandre Petrescu" > > wrote: > > Terminology: you are using the term "user equipment (UE)" in the > document. > > That is a 3GPP term. WiFi hotspots dont say "UE" but rather > "Clients" or "STAs". > > Using "UE" makes think that the cellular network should give a > Unique IPv6 Prefix per Host. And that is wrong. There should be > more, even though each could be unique in terms of scope. > > Also, you are using the term "subscriber". That again is a > Home-specific, or cellular-specific term. It is not a WiFi term. > > And there again it is wrong to assign a Unique IPv6 Prefix per Host. > There should be more. > > Finally, you are saying: >> The architected result of designing the RA as documented above is >> that each UE/subscriber gets its own unique /64 IPv6 prefix > > This is wrong. That prefix should not be limited to being only a > /64. It could be a /63 or a /65. > > Only if you are sure that this BCP is going to be used on Ethernet > can you limit its scope to /64. > > Alex > > Le 13/03/2017 à 05:09, internet-drafts@ietf.org a écrit : >> >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >> directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations of >> the IETF. >> >> Title : Unique IPv6 Prefix Per Host Authors : >> John Jason Brzozowski Gunter Van De Velde Filename : >> draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02.txt Pages : 8 Date >> : 2017-03-12 >> >> Abstract: In some IPv6 environments the need has arisen for hosts >> to be able to utilise a unique IPv6 prefix even though the link or >> media may be shared. Typically hosts (subscribers) on a shared >> network, either wired or wireless, such as Ethernet, WiFi, etc., >> will acquire unique IPv6 addresses from a common IPv6 prefix that >> is allocated or assigned for use on a specific link. >> >> In most deployments today IPv6 address assignment from a single >> IPv6 prefix on a shared network is done by either using IPv6 >> stateless address auto-configuration (SLAAC) and/or stateful >> DHCPv6. While this is still viable and operates as designed there >> are some large scale environments where this concept introduces >> significant performance challenges and implications, specifically >> related to IPv6 router and neighbor discovery. >> >> This document outlines an approach utilising existing IPv6 >> protocols to allow hosts to be assigned a unique IPv6 prefix >> (instead of a unique IPv6 address from a shared IPv6 prefix). >> Benefits of a unique IPv6 prefix compared to a unique IPv6 address >> from the service provider are going from improved subscriber >> isolation to enhanced subscriber management. >> >> >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host/ > >> >> > >> There's also a htmlized version available at: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 > >> >> > >> A diff from the previous version is available at: >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 > >> >> > >> >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at >> tools.ietf.org. >> >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >> >> _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce >> mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft >> directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >> > > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > From nobody Mon Mar 13 09:27:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4F484129411 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:27:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.101 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.101 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IWFBQdHOLs1r for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from owen.delong.com (owen.delong.com [192.159.10.2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC80E1293E9 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:27:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2620:f:8000:210:48cc:9094:c31f:28df] ([IPv6:2620:f:8000:210:48cc:9094:c31f:28df]) (authenticated bits=0) by owen.delong.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2DGQHRj023826 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:26:19 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Owen DeLong In-Reply-To: <41e1221d-2c73-8f8a-b87b-68153b42dc74@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:26:18 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4B395A06-012C-4FA7-88C2-DB240BD8E34E@delong.com> References: <148937817128.24766.14747757924061025958@ietfa.amsl.com> <41e1221d-2c73-8f8a-b87b-68153b42dc74@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "Van De Velde, Gunter \(Nokia - BE\)" Subject: Re: [v6ops] [ALU] Re: multiple-ipv6-prefixes-per-host X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:27:26 -0000 > On Mar 13, 2017, at 5:19 PM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > Please let me clarify. >=20 > Le 13/03/2017 =C3=A0 15:05, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE) a =C3=A9cr= it : >> I believe that consistent terminology for identifying a device that >> is connected. In our case we choose UE (User Equipment). It does not >> feel incorrect to me, particular knowing that in many situation this >> is used in community Wifi (or even LAN) use-case scenario=E2=80=99s, = and >> there we actually do speak about UEs. (in case of tiny home Wifi >> installations it is wifi clients indeed, but in that case the >> security and operational requirements are totally different also) >=20 > In case of home networks: do you consider assigning a single /64 to a = home? >=20 >> The size /64 was selected because that is what most UEs seem to >> expect and behave correctly with, from address assignment >> perspective. >=20 > An end device yes, acts perfectly when it receives a /64. >=20 > But typical Smartphones, tablets, Personal Computers have multiple > interfaces. They are not end devices. They need to receive a /60 on > one side and deliver /64s on the other side. A /60 may well be too small. Please stop placing such arbitrary limits in places where they are not necessary and may be harmful. >=20 > SmartPhone plus SmartWatch can not work if all the Smartphone gets is = a > single /64. Depends. If SmartPhone acts as bridge/l2 switch, then no problem. If it acts as router, then perhaps no problem depending on parameters. However, definitely not ideal. >=20 >> Deviating from this does not seem something that is promoted often >> and opens a can of worms regarding the perfect size of prefix length. >> It seems that for Community LAN/Wifi networks selecting /64 is a very >> reasonable choice. >=20 > If a Hotspot Router receives a /64 then it will have a hard time > offering another /64 to the WiFi Clients that connect to it. True, but it can bridge the same /64 to wifi or split the /64 into = arbitrary chunks of smaller sizes (though as stated above, this is not desirable). >=20 > Yours, >=20 > Alex >=20 >>=20 >> G/ >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> On 13/03/2017, 14:38, "v6ops on behalf of Alexandre Petrescu" >> >> wrote: >>=20 >> Terminology: you are using the term "user equipment (UE)" in the >> document. >>=20 >> That is a 3GPP term. WiFi hotspots dont say "UE" but rather >> "Clients" or "STAs". >>=20 >> Using "UE" makes think that the cellular network should give a >> Unique IPv6 Prefix per Host. And that is wrong. There should be >> more, even though each could be unique in terms of scope. >>=20 >> Also, you are using the term "subscriber". That again is a >> Home-specific, or cellular-specific term. It is not a WiFi term. >>=20 >> And there again it is wrong to assign a Unique IPv6 Prefix per Host. >> There should be more. >>=20 >> Finally, you are saying: >>> The architected result of designing the RA as documented above is >>> that each UE/subscriber gets its own unique /64 IPv6 prefix >>=20 >> This is wrong. That prefix should not be limited to being only a >> /64. It could be a /63 or a /65. >>=20 >> Only if you are sure that this BCP is going to be used on Ethernet >> can you limit its scope to /64. >>=20 >> Alex >>=20 >> Le 13/03/2017 =C3=A0 05:09, internet-drafts@ietf.org a =C3=A9crit : >>>=20 >>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts >>> directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations of >>> the IETF. >>>=20 >>> Title : Unique IPv6 Prefix Per Host Authors : >>> John Jason Brzozowski Gunter Van De Velde Filename : >>> draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02.txt Pages : 8 Date >>> : 2017-03-12 >>>=20 >>> Abstract: In some IPv6 environments the need has arisen for hosts >>> to be able to utilise a unique IPv6 prefix even though the link or >>> media may be shared. Typically hosts (subscribers) on a shared >>> network, either wired or wireless, such as Ethernet, WiFi, etc., >>> will acquire unique IPv6 addresses from a common IPv6 prefix that >>> is allocated or assigned for use on a specific link. >>>=20 >>> In most deployments today IPv6 address assignment from a single >>> IPv6 prefix on a shared network is done by either using IPv6 >>> stateless address auto-configuration (SLAAC) and/or stateful >>> DHCPv6. While this is still viable and operates as designed there >>> are some large scale environments where this concept introduces >>> significant performance challenges and implications, specifically >>> related to IPv6 router and neighbor discovery. >>>=20 >>> This document outlines an approach utilising existing IPv6 >>> protocols to allow hosts to be assigned a unique IPv6 prefix >>> (instead of a unique IPv6 address from a shared IPv6 prefix). >>> Benefits of a unique IPv6 prefix compared to a unique IPv6 address >>> from the service provider are going from improved subscriber >>> isolation to enhanced subscriber management. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>> = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-h= ost/ >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>> There's also a htmlized version available at: >>> = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-0= 2 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>> = https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-pe= r-host-02 >>=20 >>>=20 >>>=20 >>=20 >>>=20 >>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >>> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at >>> tools.ietf.org. >>>=20 >>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce >>> mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft >>> directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or >>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops 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AM4PR07MB1715.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([10.166.133.23]) with mapi id 15.01.0977.010; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:40:26 +0000 From: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE)" To: Alexandre Petrescu , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: regarding draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host [WAS: Re: [ALU] Re: [v6ops] multiple-ipv6-prefixes-per-host] Thread-Index: AQHSnBiEPxqqlKGzZUibS3uePq4C8w== Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:40:26 +0000 Message-ID: <90317046-9A0C-413D-8275-B94936BBE3A3@alcatel-lucent.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-GB X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=nokia.com; x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [135.245.240.250] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM4PR07MB1715; 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0245702D7B x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(39410400002)(39850400002)(39860400002)(39840400002)(39450400003)(24454002)(377424004)(39060400002)(106116001)(2501003)(83716003)(6506006)(53936002)(33656002)(81166006)(966004)(6436002)(2900100001)(50986999)(77096006)(86362001)(25786008)(53546007)(54356999)(122556002)(6486002)(8676002)(36756003)(38730400002)(189998001)(305945005)(66066001)(8936002)(5660300001)(3660700001)(7736002)(3280700002)(6306002)(6512007)(9686003)(82746002)(2906002)(230783001)(6116002)(3846002)(102836003)(99286003)(104396002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:AM4PR07MB1715; H:AM4PR07MB1715.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:ovrnspm; PTR:InfoNoRecords; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-ID: <0F419662B1E03B45856DDCDA0EC2C1D8@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: nokia.com 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Pj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18gSS1ELUFu bm91bmNlDQogICAgPj4gbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0IEktRC1Bbm5vdW5jZUBpZXRmLm9yZw0KICAgID4+ IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vaS1kLWFubm91bmNlIEludGVy bmV0LURyYWZ0DQogICAgPj4gZGlyZWN0b3JpZXM6IGh0dHA6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvc2hhZG93 Lmh0bWwgb3INCiAgICA+PiBmdHA6Ly9mdHAuaWV0Zi5vcmcvaWV0Zi8xc2hhZG93LXNpdGVzLnR4 dA0KICAgID4+DQogICAgPg0KICAgID4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX18gdjZvcHMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQogICAgPiB2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZyBo dHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQogICAgPg0KICAgID4N CiAgICANCg0K From nobody Mon Mar 13 09:53:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 412D612988A for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:53:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.352 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.352 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MkcOYwukx4YQ for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7AD9F129887 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v2DGr9Uu016757; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:53:09 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 317FE20BF61; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:53:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20E202034A8; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:53:09 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2DGr8N8028974; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:53:09 +0100 To: Owen DeLong References: <148937817128.24766.14747757924061025958@ietfa.amsl.com> <41e1221d-2c73-8f8a-b87b-68153b42dc74@gmail.com> <4B395A06-012C-4FA7-88C2-DB240BD8E34E@delong.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <2ad8b23c-cc3b-12f3-f627-ac88bc65a718@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:53:04 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4B395A06-012C-4FA7-88C2-DB240BD8E34E@delong.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" , "Van De Velde, Gunter \(Nokia - BE\)" Subject: Re: [v6ops] [ALU] Re: multiple-ipv6-prefixes-per-host X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:53:22 -0000 Le 13/03/2017 à 17:26, Owen DeLong a écrit : > >> On Mar 13, 2017, at 5:19 PM, Alexandre Petrescu >> wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> Please let me clarify. >> >> Le 13/03/2017 à 15:05, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE) a écrit : >>> I believe that consistent terminology for identifying a device >>> that is connected. In our case we choose UE (User Equipment). It >>> does not feel incorrect to me, particular knowing that in many >>> situation this is used in community Wifi (or even LAN) use-case >>> scenario’s, and there we actually do speak about UEs. (in case of >>> tiny home Wifi installations it is wifi clients indeed, but in >>> that case the security and operational requirements are totally >>> different also) >> >> In case of home networks: do you consider assigning a single /64 to >> a home? >> >>> The size /64 was selected because that is what most UEs seem to >>> expect and behave correctly with, from address assignment >>> perspective. >> >> An end device yes, acts perfectly when it receives a /64. >> >> But typical Smartphones, tablets, Personal Computers have multiple >> interfaces. They are not end devices. They need to receive a /60 >> on one side and deliver /64s on the other side. > > A /60 may well be too small. Please stop placing such arbitrary > limits in places where they are not necessary and may be harmful. > >> >> SmartPhone plus SmartWatch can not work if all the Smartphone gets >> is a single /64. > > Depends. If SmartPhone acts as bridge/l2 switch, then no problem. SmartPhone can not bridge between WiFi and Bluetooth because there is no such bridging technology. > If it acts as router, then perhaps no problem depending on > parameters. > > However, definitely not ideal. > >> >>> Deviating from this does not seem something that is promoted >>> often and opens a can of worms regarding the perfect size of >>> prefix length. It seems that for Community LAN/Wifi networks >>> selecting /64 is a very reasonable choice. >> >> If a Hotspot Router receives a /64 then it will have a hard time >> offering another /64 to the WiFi Clients that connect to it. > > True, but it can bridge the same /64 to wifi Bridging can only happen between compatible technologies. They form a subset dominated by Ethernet, but in which cellular, Bluetooth and USB are absent. I.e. can't bridge between cellular and Ethernet for example. > or split the /64 into arbitrary chunks of smaller sizes (though as > stated above, this is not desirable). I agree. Whereas it is possible to make two /65s out of a /64, no end device can use a /65 to SLAAC an address. Alex > >> >> Yours, >> >> Alex >> >>> >>> G/ >>> >>> >>> >>> On 13/03/2017, 14:38, "v6ops on behalf of Alexandre Petrescu" >>> >> alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> Terminology: you are using the term "user equipment (UE)" in the >>> document. >>> >>> That is a 3GPP term. WiFi hotspots dont say "UE" but rather >>> "Clients" or "STAs". >>> >>> Using "UE" makes think that the cellular network should give a >>> Unique IPv6 Prefix per Host. And that is wrong. There should >>> be more, even though each could be unique in terms of scope. >>> >>> Also, you are using the term "subscriber". That again is a >>> Home-specific, or cellular-specific term. It is not a WiFi >>> term. >>> >>> And there again it is wrong to assign a Unique IPv6 Prefix per >>> Host. There should be more. >>> >>> Finally, you are saying: >>>> The architected result of designing the RA as documented above >>>> is that each UE/subscriber gets its own unique /64 IPv6 >>>> prefix >>> >>> This is wrong. That prefix should not be limited to being only >>> a /64. It could be a /63 or a /65. >>> >>> Only if you are sure that this BCP is going to be used on >>> Ethernet can you limit its scope to /64. >>> >>> Alex >>> >>> Le 13/03/2017 à 05:09, internet-drafts@ietf.org a écrit : >>>> >>>> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line >>>> Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the >>>> IPv6 Operations of the IETF. >>>> >>>> Title : Unique IPv6 Prefix Per Host Authors : John >>>> Jason Brzozowski Gunter Van De Velde Filename : >>>> draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02.txt Pages : 8 >>>> Date : 2017-03-12 >>>> >>>> Abstract: In some IPv6 environments the need has arisen for >>>> hosts to be able to utilise a unique IPv6 prefix even though >>>> the link or media may be shared. Typically hosts (subscribers) >>>> on a shared network, either wired or wireless, such as >>>> Ethernet, WiFi, etc., will acquire unique IPv6 addresses from a >>>> common IPv6 prefix that is allocated or assigned for use on a >>>> specific link. >>>> >>>> In most deployments today IPv6 address assignment from a >>>> single IPv6 prefix on a shared network is done by either using >>>> IPv6 stateless address auto-configuration (SLAAC) and/or >>>> stateful DHCPv6. While this is still viable and operates as >>>> designed there are some large scale environments where this >>>> concept introduces significant performance challenges and >>>> implications, specifically related to IPv6 router and neighbor >>>> discovery. >>>> >>>> This document outlines an approach utilising existing IPv6 >>>> protocols to allow hosts to be assigned a unique IPv6 prefix >>>> (instead of a unique IPv6 address from a shared IPv6 prefix). >>>> Benefits of a unique IPv6 prefix compared to a unique IPv6 >>>> address from the service provider are going from improved >>>> subscriber isolation to enhanced subscriber management. >>>> >>>> >>>> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host/ >>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> There's also a htmlized version available at: >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 >>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A diff from the previous version is available at: >>>> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 >>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of >>>> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available >>>> at tools.ietf.org. >>>> >>>> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: >>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce >>>> mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce >>>> Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or >>>> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing >>> list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > From nobody Mon Mar 13 09:54:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1294129889 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:54:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QYEurm34UY77 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 59F54129705 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 09:54:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2DGrw9e002048; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:53:58 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 60B2C20BF61; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:53:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E762034A8; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:53:58 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2DGrvV8029437; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:53:58 +0100 To: "Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE)" , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <90317046-9A0C-413D-8275-B94936BBE3A3@alcatel-lucent.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <2d95d19b-3109-a33f-155c-4f8718cd90b6@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 17:53:53 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <90317046-9A0C-413D-8275-B94936BBE3A3@alcatel-lucent.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] regarding draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host [WAS: Re: [ALU] Re: multiple-ipv6-prefixes-per-host] X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 16:54:02 -0000 How is this draft helping deployment of DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation? How is this draft delaying deployment of DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation? Alex Le 13/03/2017 à 17:40, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE) a écrit : > The draft draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host is addressing a application realm as mentioned in the abstract. It is not trying to address all types of devices and all use-case scenario’s. I am sure that the proposed does not address all different permutations of address related requirements, but for the application realm intended for the document it offers a perfectly reasonable approach. Please do not extend the use-case domain to include CPE’s etc… > > When looking at the draftabstract as shown below, it seems that the application realm is really well documented and > clear, not? … From re-reading it there seems little room for confusion on what/where and how: > > First: > hosts (subscribers) on a shared > network, either wired or wireless, such as Ethernet, WiFi, etc., > will acquire unique IPv6 addresses from a common IPv6 prefix that > is allocated or assigned for use on a specific link. > > Next: > This document outlines an approach utilising existing IPv6 > protocols to allow hosts to be assigned a unique IPv6 prefix > (instead of a unique IPv6 address from a shared IPv6 prefix). > Benefits of a unique IPv6 prefix compared to a unique IPv6 address > from the service provider are going from improved subscriber > isolation to enhanced subscriber management. > > The full abstract can be found below, and clearly identifies the application domain for this draft… > > Abstract: > In some IPv6 environments the need has arisen for hosts > to be able to utilise a unique IPv6 prefix even though the link or > media may be shared. Typically hosts (subscribers) on a shared > network, either wired or wireless, such as Ethernet, WiFi, etc., > will acquire unique IPv6 addresses from a common IPv6 prefix that > is allocated or assigned for use on a specific link. > > In most deployments today IPv6 address assignment from a single > IPv6 prefix on a shared network is done by either using IPv6 > stateless address auto-configuration (SLAAC) and/or stateful > DHCPv6. While this is still viable and operates as designed there > are some large scale environments where this concept introduces > significant performance challenges and implications, specifically > related to IPv6 router and neighbor discovery. > > This document outlines an approach utilising existing IPv6 > protocols to allow hosts to be assigned a unique IPv6 prefix > (instead of a unique IPv6 address from a shared IPv6 prefix). > Benefits of a unique IPv6 prefix compared to a unique IPv6 address > from the service provider are going from improved subscriber > isolation to enhanced subscriber management. > > > Be well, > G/ > > On 13/03/2017, 17:19, "Alexandre Petrescu" wrote: > > Hi, > > Please let me clarify. > > Le 13/03/2017 à 15:05, Van De Velde, Gunter (Nokia - BE) a écrit : > > I believe that consistent terminology for identifying a device that > > is connected. In our case we choose UE (User Equipment). It does not > > feel incorrect to me, particular knowing that in many situation this > > is used in community Wifi (or even LAN) use-case scenario’s, and > > there we actually do speak about UEs. (in case of tiny home Wifi > > installations it is wifi clients indeed, but in that case the > > security and operational requirements are totally different also) > > In case of home networks: do you consider assigning a single /64 to a home? > > > The size /64 was selected because that is what most UEs seem to > > expect and behave correctly with, from address assignment > > perspective. > > An end device yes, acts perfectly when it receives a /64. > > But typical Smartphones, tablets, Personal Computers have multiple > interfaces. They are not end devices. They need to receive a /60 on > one side and deliver /64s on the other side. > > SmartPhone plus SmartWatch can not work if all the Smartphone gets is a > single /64. > > > Deviating from this does not seem something that is promoted often > > and opens a can of worms regarding the perfect size of prefix length. > > It seems that for Community LAN/Wifi networks selecting /64 is a very > > reasonable choice. > > If a Hotspot Router receives a /64 then it will have a hard time > offering another /64 to the WiFi Clients that connect to it. > > Yours, > > Alex > > > > > G/ > > > > > > > > On 13/03/2017, 14:38, "v6ops on behalf of Alexandre Petrescu" > > > > wrote: > > > > Terminology: you are using the term "user equipment (UE)" in the > > document. > > > > That is a 3GPP term. WiFi hotspots dont say "UE" but rather > > "Clients" or "STAs". > > > > Using "UE" makes think that the cellular network should give a > > Unique IPv6 Prefix per Host. And that is wrong. There should be > > more, even though each could be unique in terms of scope. > > > > Also, you are using the term "subscriber". That again is a > > Home-specific, or cellular-specific term. It is not a WiFi term. > > > > And there again it is wrong to assign a Unique IPv6 Prefix per Host. > > There should be more. > > > > Finally, you are saying: > >> The architected result of designing the RA as documented above is > >> that each UE/subscriber gets its own unique /64 IPv6 prefix > > > > This is wrong. That prefix should not be limited to being only a > > /64. It could be a /63 or a /65. > > > > Only if you are sure that this BCP is going to be used on Ethernet > > can you limit its scope to /64. > > > > Alex > > > > Le 13/03/2017 à 05:09, internet-drafts@ietf.org a écrit : > >> > >> A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts > >> directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations of > >> the IETF. > >> > >> Title : Unique IPv6 Prefix Per Host Authors : > >> John Jason Brzozowski Gunter Van De Velde Filename : > >> draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02.txt Pages : 8 Date > >> : 2017-03-12 > >> > >> Abstract: In some IPv6 environments the need has arisen for hosts > >> to be able to utilise a unique IPv6 prefix even though the link or > >> media may be shared. Typically hosts (subscribers) on a shared > >> network, either wired or wireless, such as Ethernet, WiFi, etc., > >> will acquire unique IPv6 addresses from a common IPv6 prefix that > >> is allocated or assigned for use on a specific link. > >> > >> In most deployments today IPv6 address assignment from a single > >> IPv6 prefix on a shared network is done by either using IPv6 > >> stateless address auto-configuration (SLAAC) and/or stateful > >> DHCPv6. While this is still viable and operates as designed there > >> are some large scale environments where this concept introduces > >> significant performance challenges and implications, specifically > >> related to IPv6 router and neighbor discovery. > >> > >> This document outlines an approach utilising existing IPv6 > >> protocols to allow hosts to be assigned a unique IPv6 prefix > >> (instead of a unique IPv6 address from a shared IPv6 prefix). > >> Benefits of a unique IPv6 prefix compared to a unique IPv6 address > >> from the service provider are going from improved subscriber > >> isolation to enhanced subscriber management. > >> > >> > >> The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: > >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host/ > > > >> > >> > > > >> There's also a htmlized version available at: > >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 > > > >> > >> > > > >> A diff from the previous version is available at: > >> https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 > > > >> > >> > > > >> > >> Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of > >> submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at > >> tools.ietf.org. > >> > >> Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: > >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ > >> > >> _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce > >> mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft > >> directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or > >> ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > From nobody Mon Mar 13 11:05:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCD3F12999C; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:05:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.47.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148942832488.9203.16820015681614277086@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:05:24 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations-02.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 18:05:25 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations of the IETF. Title : Considerations For Using Unique Local Addresses Authors : Bing Liu Sheng Jiang Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations-02.txt Pages : 13 Date : 2017-03-13 Abstract: This document provides considerations for using IPv6 Unique Local Addresses (ULAs). Based on an analysis of different ULA usage scenarios, this document identifies use cases where ULA addresses are helpful as well as potential problems caused by using them. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations-02 A diff from the previous version is available at: https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations-02 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Mon Mar 13 11:13:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02B281299BB for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:13:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G5lYxsEYRR5P for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:13:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-in2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.151.62.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B7AB1299A8 for ; 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Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:13:52 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11973e11-60f049a000007590-54-58c6e16053ca Received: from nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01 (nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01.apple.com [17.151.62.64]) by relay7.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 3F.5E.10079.061E6C85; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:13:52 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Content-type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII Received: from [17.153.63.111] (unknown [17.153.63.111]) by nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170210 64bit (built Feb 10 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0OMR00MAIMN4FC20@nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01.apple.com>; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:13:52 -0700 (PDT) Sender: dschinazi@apple.com From: David Schinazi In-reply-to: Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:13:51 -0700 Message-id: References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> To: Philip Homburg X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrBLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FCYqpvw8FiEwa01Vha3519gsjh9bC+z A5PHkiU/mTzebXIIYIrisklJzcksSy3St0vgyviwbDtLQS9nxYbfe1gbGJezdzFyckgImEgc 2/uGCcQWEtjHKPH+SRBM/OqUA0A1XEDxY4wSk2bvZgZJ8AoISvyYfI+li5GDg1lAXuLgeVmQ MLOAlsT3R60sEPULmSTeTp/CCJIQFpCW6LpwlxWkXljAQOLn/UwQkw2o/sAaI5AKTgFjiWsX 54GdwyKgKrG/o50NYqSQxOJr3xkhttpITPw4mxVi/AMmiasXr7KAJEQE9CVaHm9ghbhZVuLT 859gN0sINLJJfOidzjqBUXgWkrNnIZw9C8nZCxiZVzEK5SZm5uhm5hnpJRYU5KTqJefnbmIE BfV0O8EdjMdXWR1iFOBgVOLhbZhzLEKINbGsuDL3EKM0B4uSOG/AFaCQQHpiSWp2ampBalF8 UWlOavEhRiYOTqkGRs+11i1Tbqb0Hk+yPfZW9/0E14Xf91z2EFzBN78//ndgZYiUpsCbx83y q285fauJCXOLLBSe6qp8/FtZvamX1Asds0DbXj776OMFj5cs/KiSdnlFuOO3hCudVm0mv1n4 uM/o2f1bd1nw8uZH64+v3yl5u3nXjAec4htjlTV33VxZH7fOde+HAiWW4oxEQy3mouJEAG0l A3hLAgAA X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrDLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiON3OQTfh4bEIg/U7LSxuz7/AZHH62F5m ByaPJUt+Mnm82+QQwBTFZZOSmpNZllqkb5fAlfFh2XaWgl7Oig2/97A2MC5n72Lk5JAQMJG4 OuUAkM3FISRwjFFi0uzdzCAJXgFBiR+T77F0MXJwMAvISxw8LwsSZhbQkvj+qJUFon4hk8Tb 6VMYQRLCAtISXRfusoLUCwsYSPy8nwlisgHVH1hjBFLBKWAsce3iPLC1LAKqEvs72tkgRgpJ LL72nRFiq43ExI+zWSHGP2CSuHrxKgtIQkRAX6Ll8QZWiJtlJT49/8k+gVFgFpJLZyFcOgvJ pQsYmVcxChSl5iRWmuslFhTkpOol5+duYgSFYUNh6g7GxuVWhxgFOBiVeHhvzDsWIcSaWFZc mXuIUYKDWUmEt+U+UIg3JbGyKrUoP76oNCe1+BCjNAeLkjiv9qzDEUIC6YklqdmpqQWpRTBZ Jg5OqQZG8+rwVm/e3zfezf+reELz1peiy9MVa41Xi0i/cMhiNZH1queZYVV65e7M/l8sJjKr lPzjbcNmul2S+y+wzqlO9erRhi9tm17cO3r2RJFdzWZuCcn8vUKi20Jj/kn+iE38sJ4h+LnZ ahZR6SuLos5NSXs+Ofj2ms/1Tz8mzNVTEX25pdNP7nqtEktxRqKhFnNRcSIA/qK+Tj8CAAA= Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 18:13:54 -0000 Phillip, By design, Happy Eyeballs cannot be implemented using blocking networking calls in a single-threaded C program, as it involves racing parallel operations. DNS is no different than TCP in this regard. If an implementation wants to be compliant with this specification, they'll need to support asynchronous networking. If an implementation has limitations that prevent it from being compliant, that is fine, you don't need to support all RFCs to connect your code to the Internet. If there is consensus in the working group to relax the requirements language in this document, we're absolutely open to that. But I don't believe we should restrict ourselves to getaddrinfo() or any API for that matter. David > On Mar 13, 2017, at 05:49, Philip Homburg wrote: > >> >> We've incorporated them into -01, please let us know if they >> were properly addressed. > > In my opinion, there is no justification for declaring a single threaded > C application that uses getaddrinfo non-compliant. > > So this draft doesn't address my concerns. Just calling getaddrinfo should > be enough. > From nobody Mon Mar 13 12:09:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2D26129A92 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:09:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.352 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.352 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bieLcUsEbW2H for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:09:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED7B712945C for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 12:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v2DJ9YLJ020645 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:09:34 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id A0BB020BFC7 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:09:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 971E1202EAE for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:09:34 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2DJ9Yu6011795 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:09:34 +0100 References: <148943138626.20338.13627012133990844932@ietfa.amsl.com> To: "v6ops@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu X-Forwarded-Message-Id: <148943138626.20338.13627012133990844932@ietfa.amsl.com> Message-ID: <78777d49-60eb-1233-fe4b-a726ed92cae7@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 20:09:29 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <148943138626.20338.13627012133990844932@ietfa.amsl.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Fwd: I-D Action: draft-petrescu-v6ops-ipv6-power-ipv4-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:09:39 -0000 Hi participants to v6ops, Following discussions in v6ops, we submitted a new draft showing preliminary results of measuring the power consumption of IPv6 vs IPv4 on a smartphone connected on a cellular link. The preliminary results show an increase of approximately 5% on IPv6, under certain conditions. More measurements will be performed that will confirm or infirm these figures. Yours, Alex -------- Message transfr -------- Sujet : I-D Action: draft-petrescu-v6ops-ipv6-power-ipv4-00.txt Date : Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:56:26 -0700 De : internet-drafts@ietf.org Rpondre : internet-drafts@ietf.org Pour : i-d-announce@ietf.org A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. Title : Power Consumption of IPv6 vs IPv4 in Smartphone Authors : Alexandre Petrescu Siwar Ben Hadj Said Olivier Philippot Thomas Vincent Filename : draft-petrescu-v6ops-ipv6-power-ipv4-00.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2017-03-13 Abstract: This draft documents preliminary results of measuring the power consumption of using IPv6 vs using IPv4 on typical applications on a smartphone. The smartphone is connected on a 4G cellular network with either an IPv6 connection, or with an IPv4 connection, but not both simultaneously. The preliminary results expose a roughly 5% increase in power consumption on IPv6. More experiments are planned as future work that may confirm or infirm these figures. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-petrescu-v6ops-ipv6-power-ipv4/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-petrescu-v6ops-ipv6-power-ipv4-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ _______________________________________________ I-D-Announce mailing list I-D-Announce@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/i-d-announce Internet-Draft directories: http://www.ietf.org/shadow.html or ftp://ftp.ietf.org/ietf/1shadow-sites.txt From nobody Mon Mar 13 14:04:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 17478129AF5 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:04:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ax4HuAq_KYwb for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D00941294DD for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 14:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF7D43494FF; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 21:04:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE38E16003A; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 21:04:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BB71F1600AD; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 21:04:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id x-NwncHYQEpe; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 21:04:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 32F2B16003A; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 21:04:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 559B566ACE72; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:04:16 +1100 (EST) To: David Schinazi From: Mark Andrews References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 13 Mar 2017 11:13:51 -0700." Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:04:16 +1100 Message-Id: <20170313210416.559B566ACE72@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 21:04:27 -0000 This is also a area where fastest is the enemy of faster. There is zero reason for making async DNS a MUST. A MAY would be fine for the DNS lookups. AAAA lookups vary rarely fail to resolve these days which was the original reason for splitting the two lookups. It also adds a lot of complication for very little gain. It also doesn't preserve a preference to IPv6 as it depends on cache content not transport reachability, 50ms is not enough time to take cache contents out of the equation if A is cached and AAAA isn't. nodes are supposed to impliment destination address selection policy rules and that includes deciding whether to talk IPv4 or IPv6 first. This document breaks that for no good reason. Mark In message , David Schinazi wri tes: > Phillip, > > By design, Happy Eyeballs cannot be implemented using blocking > networking calls in a single-threaded C program, as it involves > racing parallel operations. DNS is no different than TCP in this regard. > > If an implementation wants to be compliant with this specification, > they'll need to support asynchronous networking. If an implementation > has limitations that prevent it from being compliant, that is fine, > you don't need to support all RFCs to connect your code to the Internet. > > If there is consensus in the working group to relax the requirements > language in this document, we're absolutely open to that. But I don't > believe we should restrict ourselves to getaddrinfo() or any API for > that matter. > > David > > > > On Mar 13, 2017, at 05:49, Philip Homburg wrot > e: > > > >> > >> We've incorporated them into -01, please let us know if they > >> were properly addressed. > > > > In my opinion, there is no justification for declaring a single threaded > > C application that uses getaddrinfo non-compliant. > > > > So this draft doesn't address my concerns. Just calling getaddrinfo should > > be enough. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Mon Mar 13 19:02:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 551E612946F for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:02:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.649 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.649 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.249, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WNhr2QgMkQ69 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua0-x229.google.com (mail-ua0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94834129649 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:02:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua0-x229.google.com with SMTP id 72so162424808uaf.3 for ; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:02:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=GDEfY5EnxQ7gUOmuDoPyTxcqPUL5Dg/jzR98qUixF1k=; b=SWIFEbVvFI6thAgncpcpjK3Bvc2yHJd6opQ1AhvibErTe6OaMNVlBl4AUnnCT9lgaA JU1Nv4L60l4dEOtzLirct+V0uXxQYczd30BqZwODCs4FYrBzTAxByKfBtBnqZIMA7eC1 Sj5PSwZZB9I57z/tttolSyk+hdnxtNgksIYUiNjjHFWf4RTJWvDjmP/TnBqOYGugB7W3 C0o+s8Q/+ZBxcAr3J8T0brQJhhSK3on/UdtM9gC9Lc3J+/zbvngPi0oEK2WEsVV1qsH6 1LUTnge1ucTXDnwIdVFSt6VMsOFra2mRr8YeljqwHh1aQCo0xiveirmImkTf4QOZTbBv TjnA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GDEfY5EnxQ7gUOmuDoPyTxcqPUL5Dg/jzR98qUixF1k=; b=oCa7VluMz5O17qhVRWM7wmyD5X9DzUqess/dmv7DTVzpiMXvgfXMFjcqGK8Us7ib0/ j78QeWZdYF6AgMVBhmg6Svundt+mXyTJP8VHZAROJ4TmD80hWXgpp8HbKuWwSXCco/AM XIjS93wDvDerpYMuervQYShlNoi9jpVfcDkqde7jz2PR93RWeRpLEbQHJLeV0/PaJeog kOGPIDztaJfr94dxLFohJ7fdGRKYLNAonbjPOQHdM5iIZqXBggNpONHmwJOXquJJlggK ksn/zknlAuZyhVx8MqwhzjlozcGpYcs2GOTZ9N4YeXPAgjy/lma5DdmVUlcm8pkpJMJI jS5A== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lcPqjvAptw8cwetYbuNKhsParYOAk7TiR8e5jTZl9UHRvG2kWWxNw+deC2tu02rgT9hO4ap36+NLCxGg== X-Received: by 10.176.74.30 with SMTP id q30mr18576647uae.4.1489456967513; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:02:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: nygren@gmail.com Received: by 10.103.91.201 with HTTP; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:02:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> From: Erik Nygren Date: Mon, 13 Mar 2017 22:02:46 -0400 X-Google-Sender-Auth: BavX3REHCq4UdjDyBnnTj57AZB4 Message-ID: To: David Schinazi Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045f8716750c18054aa739dd Archived-At: Cc: IPv6 Operations , Erik Nygren - Work Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 02:02:50 -0000 --f403045f8716750c18054aa739dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 It's great to see an updated version of this guidance! > There is zero reason for making async DNS a MUST. The bare minimum is that revolvers must do A and AAAA lookups in parallel. The current behavior of some stacks is to do the AAAA and A lookups in series. This means effectively means that adding IPv6 connectivity to a client adds an extra RTT in for almost all DNS lookups. For example, see section 5 in: https://www.akamai.com/us/en/multimedia/documents/technical-publication/a-case-for-faster-mobile-web-in-cellular-ipv6-networks.pdf For clients such as mobile device visiting sites with lots of hostnames, this can have a very substantial performance hit. This also shows up in some RUM-based measurement reports making IPv6 look slower (due to clients with IPv6 spending more time doing DNS lookups before doing page loads). Doing the lookups in parallel but not waiting for both responses is better than serial, but still has a perf hit (whatever the recovery time plus an RTT) when the A or AAAA lookup packet is lost. Some additional comments/thoughts after reading through the -01 version: * It would be good to add a section on failure cases NOT detected/mitigated by this form of Happy Eyeballs. Even if not covering mitigations, it would still be good to discuss them for awareness. - In particular, PMTUD seems to be the most common. ie, if there is a PMTUD issue between the client and server, then the connect will often succeed but the connection will fail to function. I think most large-scale IPv6 server operators (plus many of small ones) have broken this at least once. One client-side mitigation for TCP might be for the client to offer progressively smaller MSS as it retries different IPs within a protocol family. (I don't know if anyone does or has tried this? There is the server-side pmtud probing feature.) For UDP protocols, using full-frame packets for the SYN and the SYN-ACK (as QUIC does) seems like one approach to at least detect breakage early, although QUIC doesn't key have a PMTUD mitigation solution AFAIK. - Servers that return different content for IPv6 vs IPv4 (eg, "404 not found" due to an unconfigured server on the IPv6 side). "Don't do this" as advice to server operators is likely the best way to fix it as hacking around it on the client side is unhelpful. * It may make sense to recommend some form of back-off in the retry timing. Rather than a fixed value (eg, 250ms), adding an increasing time value with some jitter into each retry may be safer in the cases of overloaded servers or a network connection that is borderline near the retry time. I've seen congestive failure and lack-of-progress scenarios from having a fixed retry timer. For example, with servers that do FIFO queueing of connections to accept, if the queue becomes longer than the retry period then all clients fail to make forward progress and you reach congestive collapse. The same can happen with links that become high-latency, however. * It may be worth adding some guidance into reporting and visibility. I'm not sure how? One of the big complaints against Happy Eyeballs is that it masks brokenness (latency spikes but things keep working so no one complains enough to fix the root cause). Having a recommendation that stacks or applications at least keep counters and telemetry on failures may at least make it more viable to debug? * It would be good to provide guidance or a reminder around protocols that send data along with a SYN or an initial flight (eg, TCP Fast Open / TFO and TLS 1.3 0RTT). In particular, you likely want to send this ONLY on one connection attempt (eg, the IPv6 attempt?) as otherwise the operation may be executed twice by the server. This may cause undue server load and for apps/clients incorrectly using TFO or 0RTT for non-idempotent operations it could cause duplicate actions. Thanks! Erik On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 11:53 PM, David Schinazi wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Thanks a lot for the comments and feedback. > We've incorporated them into -01, please let us know if they were properly > addressed. > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-v6ops- > happy-eyeballs-update-01.txt > > Regards, > David Schinazi > > > On Mar 10, 2017, at 14:54, Philip Homburg > wrote: > > In your letter dated Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:29:55 -0800 you wrote: > > We can certainly soften some of the language to make it clear that if > your system has no such option, you are not necessarily out of spec, but > if su > ch an option is available, we believe that it SHOULD indeed be used. This > fits > with the Happy Eyeballs paradigm: if I am waiting for one of the DNS > response > s to come back, I could have already made my connection in that time, > getting > the user the resource loaded more quickly. > > > If the DNS requirements can be toned down to the point that an application > can use getaddrinfo if that fits the application, then that's fine > with me. > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > --f403045f8716750c18054aa739dd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
It's grea= t to see an updated version of this guidance!

> There is zero rea= son for making async DNS a MUST.=C2=A0

The bare minimum = is that revolvers must do A and AAAA lookups in parallel.
The= current behavior of some stacks is to do the AAAA and A lookups in series.=
This means effectively means that adding IPv6 connectivity to a client= adds an
extra RTT in for almost all DNS lookups.=C2=A0
=
For clients such as mobile device v= isiting sites with lots of hostnames,
this can have a very su= bstantial performance hit.=C2=A0 This also shows up
in some R= UM-based measurement reports making IPv6 look slower
(due to= clients with IPv6 spending more time doing DNS lookups before
doing page loads).

Doing the lookups in parallel but not waiting= for both responses is better than serial,
but still has a pe= rf hit (whatever the recovery time plus an RTT) when
the A or AAAA look= up packet is lost.

Some additional comments/thought= s after reading through the -01 version:

* It would be good to= add a section on failure cases NOT detected/mitigated by this form of Happ= y Eyeballs.
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Even if not covering mitigations, it= would still be good to discuss them for awareness.

=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 - In particular, PMTUD seems to be the most common.=C2=A0 ie, if = there is a PMTUD issue between
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 the client and= server, then the connect will often succeed but the connection will fail t= o function.
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 I think most large= -scale IPv6 server operators (plus many of small ones) have broken this at = least once.
=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 One client-side mitigation f= or TCP might be for the client to offer progressively smaller MSS
=C2= =A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 as it retries different IPs within a protocol family= .
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 (I don't know if anyone does = or has tried this?=C2=A0 There is the server-side pmtud probing feature.)
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 For UDP protocols, using full-frame = packets for the SYN and the SYN-ACK (as QUIC does) seems
=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 like one approach to at least detect breakage early, = although QUIC doesn't key have a PMTUD
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 mitigation solution AFAIK.
=

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 -=C2=A0 Servers that return different cont= ent for IPv6 vs IPv4 (eg, "404 not found" due to an unconfigured = server on the IPv6 side).
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0 "Don't do this" as advice to server operators is likely t= he best way to fix it as hacking around it on the client side is unhelpful.=

* It may make sense to recommend some form of= back-off in the retry timing.=C2=A0 Rather than a fixed value (eg, 250ms),= adding
=C2=A0 an increasing time value with some jitter into= each retry may be safer in the cases of overloaded servers
= =C2=A0 or a network connection that is borderline near the retry time.=C2= =A0 I've seen congestive failure and lack-of-progress
=C2= =A0 scenarios from having a fixed retry timer.=C2=A0 For example, with serv= ers that do FIFO queueing of connections to accept,
=C2=A0 if= the queue becomes longer than the retry period then all clients fail to ma= ke forward progress and you reach
=C2=A0 congestive collapse= .=C2=A0 The same can happen with links that become high-latency, however.

* It may be worth adding some guidance into rep= orting and visibility.=C2=A0 I'm not sure how?=C2=A0
=C2= =A0 One of the big complaints against Happy Eyeballs is that it masks broke= nness (latency spikes
=C2=A0 but things keep working so no on= e complains enough to fix the root cause).
=C2=A0 Having a re= commendation that stacks or applications at least keep counters and telemet= ry
=C2=A0 on failures may at least make it more viable to deb= ug?

* It would be good to provide guidance or a reminder = around protocols that send data along with a SYN
=C2=A0 or an initial fl= ight=C2=A0 (eg, TCP Fast Open / TFO and TLS 1.3 0RTT).=C2=A0 In particular,= you likely
=C2=A0 want to send this ONLY on one connection attempt (eg,= the IPv6 attempt?) as otherwise
=C2=A0 the operation may be= executed twice by the server.=C2=A0 This may cause undue server load
=C2=A0 and for apps/clients incorrectly using TFO or 0RTT for non-= idempotent operations
=C2=A0 it could cause duplicate action= s.

Thanks!=C2=A0 Erik


<= br>


On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 = at 11:53 PM, David Schinazi <dschinazi@apple.com> wrote:
Hi eve= ryone,

Thanks a lot for the comments and feedback.
=
We've incorporated them into -01, please let us know if they were = properly addressed.

Regards,
David Schinazi=


On Mar 10, 2017, at 14:54, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-6@u-1.phicoh.co= m> wrote:

In your letter dated Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:29:55 -0800 you = wrote:
We can certainly soften some of the lan= guage to make it clear that if
your system has no such option, you are = not necessarily out of spec, but if su
ch an option is available, we bel= ieve that it SHOULD indeed be used. This fits
with the Happy Eyeballs pa= radigm: if I am waiting for one of the DNS response
s to come back, I co= uld have already made my connection in that time, getting
the user the = resource loaded more quickly.

If the DNS requirements c= an be toned down to the point that an application
can use getaddrinfo if= that fits the application, then that's fine
with me.


___= ____________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
= v6ops@ietf.org
<= a href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" target=3D"_blank">ht= tps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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--f403045f8716750c18054aa739dd-- From nobody Mon Mar 13 19:48:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D78941297EC; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:48:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.665 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.665 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_SORBS_WEB=2.035, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6NoMy7ngKKeq; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:48:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x244.google.com (mail-lf0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 956DF12962E; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x244.google.com with SMTP id g70so13095851lfh.3; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:48:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :cc:to; bh=3Z+SxKSyltvSgwPUwXEGEM51bpBVUw5rraRa+YZKNj0=; b=YhfqvT48Rx6lhESCiNBXDhEdJcMHhbBYmuI4NCFZ65ueO5HLukoLpZklZnvNXVTshb m8zFoHRXmD5iMstQMiquc4QOj6y00uviBqoS0rDAcKzH/0XNIBBuCyTNhQeW05jScNVO MpOC/6NsSpcnRwqCADnfEXFJL+pMvHWLLDjSS/WccK7ZZQOgF5FP5eNM2+9yjM7ReIr+ iOSC//mTi0pXmBncMzP0IA6ymCQVUkU0bael1ESwYs5fruad7VEnEgQW8q/u6oWuNCG7 +ignCLeMYXpymMnOruMH2A8m7aSohCbiCmPKjKVtLg/tY3rkw9WibOsj5o2tCl5J5VS7 bvJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:cc:to; bh=3Z+SxKSyltvSgwPUwXEGEM51bpBVUw5rraRa+YZKNj0=; b=n53t5LwnoKq39BiBRHW5/uszZMh+sRhA8Y3X6wvWYW+WmtYt8jqsLO+5Wj6gkJGSZX kf980Prq1szpZLXVEm5yMBEvn1+6JeP3QM5Vj0XTcDc3LOtOq+g6wd5SCE95j99VR+j1 ZiQvDnjcUxXibwnBZJcKSoTVZtV9hDnmcV1nt/BGSTE5mcGDc8ebh/4v6VFw4VcqLAcT Ddllbhp47jUYW353J2QVy0pUEG6EhFUJcNtHIIkK/7n4R6CgZIYL99aAEZluaPjoEvBm UKiYIetSobER0WI2DY6BPz5i70gKX1kKAvZB9C2ibwJ7IWzmgF3VXkxolj3pqEW0mk4b UrUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39m5nqUdsh2Ejk7bSkBjc05eaEneTXX3d7YV1/d3ajaRGFl27LHAJtNNMZvuLvSmnA== X-Received: by 10.25.196.68 with SMTP id u65mr9073054lff.50.1489459710435; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:48:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.7.26.130] ([195.184.110.138]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s63sm1193419lja.28.2017.03.13.19.48.29 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 13 Mar 2017 19:48:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Message-Id: <5C6A51B8-3551-478D-86F9-538727073E83@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 03:48:22 +0100 To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: " Chairs" , v6ops-ads@ietf.org Subject: [v6ops] IETF 98 Agenda X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 02:48:34 -0000 IPv6 Operations will meet Wednesday 13:00-15:00 at IETF 98. I just = posted a preliminary agenda, at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/98/agenda/v6ops/. In short, we have had three drafts ready to discuss for some time, and = have planned for discussions of: - a charter update (mention IPv6-only networks explicitly) - draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs - draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis - draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration We had planned for the above with "AOB" at the end. We have since had = requests for discussion of: - draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update - draft-bruneau-pvd - draft-bowbakova-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming We have also seen three drafts posted in the past 48 hours: - draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations - draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host - draft-petrescu-v6ops-ipv6-power-ipv4 As such, we will go with the three mentioned first, plus = draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update if there is time, and = additionally draft-bruneau-pvd if there is time. We don't guarantee that = there will be time, but I would well imagine asking for 2.5 hours at = IETF 99 rather than two hours if workload is picking up. = draft-bowbakova-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming is in the process of = adoption in rtgwg; I'd recommend that people that want to discuss it go = there. The remaining drafts will be discussed on the mailing list, or in = a potential interim meeting (TBA).= From nobody Mon Mar 13 23:38:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 543B51294FD; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:38:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y3V8xTc4IkN7; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fud.no (mail.fud.no [IPv6:2a02:c0:4f0:bb02:f816:3eff:fed3:8342]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 380B71294EA; Mon, 13 Mar 2017 23:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2a02:c0:2:1:1194:17:0:1029] (port=49560 helo=echo.ms.redpill-linpro.com) by mail.fud.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cng65-0008LC-Fe; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:38:17 +0000 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 07:38:17 +0100 From: Tore Anderson To: Fred Baker Message-ID: <20170314073817.7a5458b2@echo.ms.redpill-linpro.com> In-Reply-To: <5C6A51B8-3551-478D-86F9-538727073E83@gmail.com> References: <5C6A51B8-3551-478D-86F9-538727073E83@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.14.1 (GTK+ 2.24.31; x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , " Chairs" , v6ops-ads@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF 98 Agenda X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:38:22 -0000 * Fred Baker > We have also seen three drafts posted in the past 48 hours: > - draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations > - draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host > - draft-petrescu-v6ops-ipv6-power-ipv4 Hm. In case you've missed it: draft-ietf-v6ops-v4v6-xlat-prefix-00 was posted last Thursday. It awaits moderation at https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/status/84830/. Don't know if is necessary with agenda time for it though, I'd be happy for it to go straight to WGLC. Tore From nobody Tue Mar 14 01:00:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EB7D71294D4; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 00:59:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uDWIQqPy7vcc; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 00:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x241.google.com (mail-pg0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 24678126CD8; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 00:59:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x241.google.com with SMTP id g2so18310521pge.2; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 00:59:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=iSrPblbVnWaMoCPYe5YzkmPNzmda0royr0tbpDF3PYs=; b=gTuHBGWBhV0/eJPS62WeugR3QKXhjwYlGJn6xYne39yfHwuro47syV0Da/VPEb1S7T VgvMPaHexlSMxDBP0z78tFVI1U4307Nf3H5sdduDyYUykPpMrgnyyAmZIEfguV2fcuX3 zdlEKlqapmCxceJAUV5U9Pj5rAGCiMSV1eM1RQTyR8hqBw/JpahLAwM5185H2tLTPd4m DcOiNElTC8U8Dkef/8Lon23tJSEQQ2laSQxVNn5Fb0elYCoe2O8+fnFbQgsKngOHRpB0 g5NLNRScsm/1CIrhpW38CNZd+FYEh/xgxNsxFhZfSCt5DiXRkABexzmMzPwtG2M4hMM1 yyHQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=iSrPblbVnWaMoCPYe5YzkmPNzmda0royr0tbpDF3PYs=; b=cwkzDdD65c5qi79moraoz1qhShjNktb1tIx+Aqw/W76QQpbD6ahfCFjQMVB1uDeNx5 8SrE0nR3am62KsvBKbYUfObNCyI9/4cxHtcdBh82Tq+lSllEyRWieGJ2IYFA2Liih60L rFP0s7DuLoeHpjD5jYmcrpFJGSKWDHnBPz+y3BLLkdSKeNe3eiJUsBFeXWcj/f4SQ4BC ryxbH5XJo3FRXZ6glaWtZhR74zFyjtL+03Sa97TacwJ5pFWUNctPD+sdTAQehKYeqHkM FBbpFcO+I5nvAvs1UiBWW/xLL6KsuhTnlctBZUqXNvO0m1G3zd8EqvVa1wbf6RO6Pp4Z Os6Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39nAJqgfZsqHerL1ntwA/k1rNv4yE+yn9qNKAiQ3hIH+Ir2zdfYBGL55lujzcx8u/w== X-Received: by 10.98.155.149 with SMTP id e21mr42621685pfk.24.1489478397705; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 00:59:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.196.203.153] (92-196.icannmeeting.org. [199.91.196.92]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y21sm36944253pgh.52.2017.03.14.00.59.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Mar 2017 00:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <20170314073817.7a5458b2@echo.ms.redpill-linpro.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:59:48 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <5C6A51B8-3551-478D-86F9-538727073E83@gmail.com> <20170314073817.7a5458b2@echo.ms.redpill-linpro.com> To: Tore Anderson X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , " Chairs" , v6ops-ads@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF 98 Agenda X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:00:00 -0000 We have been puzzling over the minutes. = https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/minutes/minutes-97-v6ops-00.txt says = "Lee Howard: hum on adoption, which leads to adoption of this I-D by = V6OPS." I wasn't there, and Ron doesn't remember. Was that an agreement = to adopt not checked on the mailing list? In any event, yes, I think the next step is a WGLC, not a presentation. > On Mar 14, 2017, at 7:38 AM, Tore Anderson wrote: >=20 > * Fred Baker >=20 >> We have also seen three drafts posted in the past 48 hours: >> - draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations >> - draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host >> - draft-petrescu-v6ops-ipv6-power-ipv4 >=20 > Hm. In case you've missed it: draft-ietf-v6ops-v4v6-xlat-prefix-00 was > posted last Thursday. It awaits moderation at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/submit/status/84830/. >=20 > Don't know if is necessary with agenda time for it though, I'd be = happy > for it to go straight to WGLC. >=20 > Tore From nobody Tue Mar 14 01:00:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D3871294E0; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 01:00:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: internet-drafts@ietf.org To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.47.1 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <148947841157.12789.11187605405741918375@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 01:00:11 -0700 Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-v4v6-xlat-prefix-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:00:11 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations of the IETF. Title : Local-use IPv4/IPv6 Translation Prefix Author : Tore Anderson Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-v4v6-xlat-prefix-00.txt Pages : 7 Date : 2017-03-09 Abstract: This document reserves the IPv6 prefix 64:ff9b:1::/48 for local use within domains that enable IPv4/IPv6 translation mechanisms. This document updates RFC6890. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-v4v6-xlat-prefix/ There's also a htmlized version available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-v4v6-xlat-prefix-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Tue Mar 14 01:33:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D12C1293EC; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 01:33:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lIdB77XBhsP5; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 01:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.fud.no (mail.fud.no [IPv6:2a02:c0:4f0:bb02:f816:3eff:fed3:8342]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 990A6126CD8; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 01:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [2a02:c0:2:1:1194:17:0:1029] (port=49992 helo=echo.ms.redpill-linpro.com) by mail.fud.no with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1cnhtm-0000GN-8a; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:33:42 +0000 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 09:33:41 +0100 From: Tore Anderson To: Fred Baker Message-ID: <20170314093341.228ef2ec@echo.ms.redpill-linpro.com> In-Reply-To: References: <5C6A51B8-3551-478D-86F9-538727073E83@gmail.com> <20170314073817.7a5458b2@echo.ms.redpill-linpro.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 3.14.1 (GTK+ 2.24.31; x86_64-redhat-linux-gnu) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , " Chairs" , v6ops-ads@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF 98 Agenda X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:33:47 -0000 * Fred Baker > We have been puzzling over the minutes. > https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/minutes/minutes-97-v6ops-00.txt > says "Lee Howard: hum on adoption, which leads to adoption of this > I-D by V6OPS." I wasn't there, and Ron doesn't remember.=20 The way I remembered it was that there was indeed a successful adoption hum (that is, I was told there was, couldn't hear it myself through MeetEcho) and that the next step was for me to upload the draft with the =C2=ABietf=C2=BB tag in the name. It took me way too long to get around to it (apologies), but better late than never I suppose. > Was that an agreement to adopt not checked on the mailing list? I don't think so, I don't believe there has been any activity regarding the draft on the list since IETF97 at all. > In any event, yes, I think the next step is a WGLC, not a presentation. Great. Tore From nobody Tue Mar 14 02:05:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8ACFF1293F2 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 02:05:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yob--mu5lH6J for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 02:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x232.google.com (mail-pg0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96AEE129469 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 02:05:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x232.google.com with SMTP id 25so84013054pgy.0 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 02:05:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=iF1yv1ha9sdY2svPXtlBwQtiC0KlyFRbq6huJPaJnDU=; b=Uag0C+HmrJ2PQm+wJVYlQSi8dG9MZIhcM3FLdeQBbouVbb7tV5RLTuzT+3aXvv+ctd E2c4bgt0pG9hvPuZATMe7+Pi3A4BX5BS6/pHgPKloBTmzayxkZerzrDjY5bdFukQY3FY cMqKRl18sE49ykmXs2pIjFmPBugGBAYR5wcz/GPalMQTtBgFgwylwgis0P9ZsxMQAccp 8bFokRA/VvNDZ0kGOPS1qIUJEHUk9JYA1qDnC6W2BRwYyadQjTUz/vjcc/koZSJH8nY+ HX45hTIU59QXuBaVZg65Qplst+aR1jV1874QIaEfXeVZLbHvQHGoBO4mTPe8wHeRLXuA 2moQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=iF1yv1ha9sdY2svPXtlBwQtiC0KlyFRbq6huJPaJnDU=; b=Im4piRlUF5v+c5rh1Ukq30/aXAqr1fp0Vrfq4lsVG1DU1i5BDCPNYc9Y670rMCuU1l j8OMG6M56ks8a6qnMNVsB9fAou/crzGGLE5Nl70yKMnePgtMPvGQPW7MWArWbJzyFs7+ ybrj6s0FAWT2Kfxdgzl7t1ZzRTYREIqM04L8S2vqbAxLfv35C28uWB1LnHoviXXCLQcj OBDJzKS3/3KOa/j5xVTcUO/QfeXTEx6bVUHYVYKi/kHWmg4X8G3VENDGHU2XMx0ehjLN k8bibOyQ+ZHTEDJ/Aa9XMKUxmD0T6Po5wMQgP+WR9rNTQI/Ng11VMG8nAcIsaywz3ypK CzFg== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39kN5Mi+TQWRw/KyKHoX13K/vQiEev5bep+5E/2/ngcCAhxkIxKiC8Bl0glgHWzt/Q== X-Received: by 10.99.119.2 with SMTP id s2mr42554150pgc.153.1489482346902; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 02:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2620:f:8000:210:acc1:2164:44d3:6e88? ([2620:f:8000:210:acc1:2164:44d3:6e88]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y9sm37185213pfi.39.2017.03.14.02.05.44 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Mar 2017 02:05:45 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Message-Id: <1386DA1D-79F2-41D1-8F36-BD5C5AD1A161@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 10:05:33 +0100 To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 09:05:49 -0000 Many of us likely know that the DNS Root Key will be changing in = October. If you don't know that, you know it now. If you want a view = into the testing that is being done related to that, take a look at = http://go.icann.org/KSKtest. I bring it up in this forum primarily = because it might affect services being offered by operators in this = working group, and they might want to do similar testing prior to the = event. But we might collectively look through = https://blog.apnic.net/2016/11/15/scoring-dns-root-server-system/, which = comments on the rollover, in the context of another thread that has come = and gone several times here - "could we simply deprecate IPv6 = fragmentation? Please?" The answer is something along the lines of = "sure, fine, unless you want the DNS Key Rollover to go smoothly". Yes, = DNS root servers could force a fall-back to TCP for 20 days. We would be = testing some code in a few places that isn't usually tested - and = requiring that it work. When Mirai tipped parts of Dyn over, it made the = papers. Forcing certain DNS exchanges to shift from UDP to TCP for 20 = days - well, let's just say "I would worry". Food for thought.= From nobody Tue Mar 14 03:33:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F2C161294C2 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 03:33:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vR3rT4aNw73x for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 03:33:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 811AE128AB0 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 03:33:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1489487597; x=1490092397; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=PWy7Q5DezjyHn3PCC1cf09VVa5PV48txz1T2GE7V0qA=; b=jfTM9Hq7ntgZ6 JeJ3wmvzJn+ExkOrzYQ7IKimLWjGhPjY6y59xRtKv2P0L8T4eY2wn2QCyqcs0KNB RDK87EX4zGm+jLi5MuTVLFWCXLetoDzqojT3AkOOC/ZdoR01hpOaF4XLS6760f0y 0hlJtsC6wTNbpOSCRaRo9ZTOn0sgus= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=oQHYmzOSB3oxmNIK1+TQujGb99z9jk8wRWU/PJXA2K8j8hZeeguQ+bPrTPGg bmiuRkX80JOLLqwBV3+1O5t34EpwVpuzGrKgm7fDxPKzsM4laYiQAFz6H KNcQk4gnFfyv6spIKcoIJsQziw02+ppRt8TiFVb7TSaKQUgkMYne0c=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:33:17 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:33:01 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005386347.msg for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:33:00 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:170314:md50005386347::hKaav8hfxJrmx+r/:00000myq X-Return-Path: prvs=12461710fe=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.1f.0.170216 Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:32:58 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: <9F2AB0AA-0C78-4254-BF8B-75CB2E89C688@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option-00.txt Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 10:33:20 -0000 Hi, We have submitted a new ID, in order to standardize new DHCPv6 options to a= llow the discovery of the IPv6/IPv4 prefixes served by stateful/stateless N= AT64 translators (which can be used by SIIT, Stateful NAT64/464XLAT, EAM-SI= IT, etc.). DHCPv6 Options for Discovery NAT64 Prefixes https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-li-intarea-nat64-prefix-dhcp-option This is an update of a previous work (https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-cui= -intarea-464xlat-prefix-dhcp-00), which was considering only the 464XLAT ca= se. There have been similar solutions for DS-LITE/lw4o6/MAP, etc. As v6ops can=E2=80=99t do =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D protocols, neither DHCP sta= ndardize new options, it has been submitted to int-area, but we believe tha= t is relevant to both v6ops and DHCP, so please, read the document and prov= ide inputs. Thanks! Regards, Jordi ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Tue Mar 14 04:42:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A45E81294CE for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 04:42:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JY4Dt44-P0XJ for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 04:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 538CD126D73 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 04:42:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #127) id m1cnkqZ-0000JfC; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:42:35 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Mar 2017 10:05:33 +0100 ." <1386DA1D-79F2-41D1-8F36-BD5C5AD1A161@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:42:30 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:42:40 -0000 >But we might collectively look through https://blog.apnic.net/2016/11/15/scori >ng-dns-root-server-system/, which comments on the rollover, in the context of >another thread that has come and gone several times here - "could we simply de >precate IPv6 fragmentation? Please?" The answer is something along the lines o >f "sure, fine, unless you want the DNS Key Rollover to go smoothly". Yes, DNS >root servers could force a fall-back to TCP for 20 days. We would be testing s >ome code in a few places that isn't usually tested - and requiring that it wor >k. When Mirai tipped parts of Dyn over, it made the papers. Forcing certain DN >S exchanges to shift from UDP to TCP for 20 days - well, let's just say "I wou >ld worry". ICANN has a nice technical analysis that I can never find. In any case, for DNS over UDP, we cannot assume that a root DNS server will do PMTU discovery. The code will be there, but it just doesn't work. So there are three options: 1) Fragment at 1500. For the KSK rollover that means no fragmentation 2) Fragment at 1280. For the KSK rollover that means that fragmentation will happen for a DNSKEY query. 3) Truncate at 1280. For the KSK rollover that means that truncation will happen for a DNSKEY query. Assuming that option 3) is out (increase in TCP traffic is too risky) then 2) is technically correct. However, there is wide spread filtering of fragments. So 2) results in a significant loss rate. So in practice, 1) minimizes loss but is bad for everybody behind a link with a low MTU. In practice, all of this doesn't really matter because the number of IPv6-only recursive resolvers is very low. And there is no issue with IPv4. One thing that makes me sad, is that it should be relatively easy to implement PMTU blackhole detection on the DNS client side (set the EDNS udp size to what fits in 1280 after a few timeouts). But just like the PMTU blockhole detection for TCP, that doesn't seem wide spread. From nobody Tue Mar 14 05:19:23 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BBA6129584 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 05:19:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.999, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id geieYCnql-Ph for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 05:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x234.google.com (mail-vk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDEE7129582 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 05:19:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x234.google.com with SMTP id t8so50733908vke.3 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 05:19:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pObLeD/VODIiXFIM9V6aeyPUGbvm/2t7bhbraTU+/eM=; b=nXWugYl6Yf9CQsKo0Q2U6bVAYcZqDBfQOM+Mb7Lyw64qCpi6NUAWX303A/MHNj93vc fUjTSribOTNdZUN5XGxwsss47sp2vh4oQK2z4ME0xujY6LFrmq+konAIrjEmhlmM+TjJ qsukzHuQL4MhvwzMFcHlWBr/CbyVvhqQiUoRPtGCy1OJQgjY7p07RIoOKp91Lj9/kJsa anAnxXPXzEWCXzQLqpK/iYTuD5HD6pMr+dX5lqB1eIIMB/uDa+83vfrne5O594qwSowm xY5LwrwNna1Qb2djDsLCNfjZhtrvMHYq26DEUC1nWLPYyeGxL+uTbOJqYqT2EajuUbHw wL4Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=pObLeD/VODIiXFIM9V6aeyPUGbvm/2t7bhbraTU+/eM=; b=Ojqg+aWqZV76VaerY+OX7B1AkPly/PY7ZCuoYGQko1WM1t+EzvaVwXjP/FkgtPV8PX vU2FjVmNzrNBE0avKj9z8gYk0MSSf3SMYCWpRc9D+tFrOxro/aqnOKZRKec6B7ssWqZg tkiMM5EHK2GJYYvux9NJZZhRYm2Q/guCHoqbchlkJox3bVvMIHsxqwdrAilW59sNTLLn y81RQYAMpkKHD2Xbyth3VMWibNx80BxkvmelGmLmUsco5hke+EduPjtVlz6aatn88Exu LFEb96+DVX/bBS8n4nJ0VrZofhwAf2s1nvb03ET4UDa/TWH4dO8hygqm0alOXSDzShaq jscw== X-Gm-Message-State: AMke39lMjgq+UvtCXyeeheak8vtey1R/41hCaZULTCV6H/fgMZFLcXeT8AeYNdU/PvEXF+Y1V1bIyyqj7bNa0w== X-Received: by 10.31.49.81 with SMTP id x78mr17236771vkx.82.1489493958779; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 05:19:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.36.144 with HTTP; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 05:18:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1386DA1D-79F2-41D1-8F36-BD5C5AD1A161@gmail.com> References: <1386DA1D-79F2-41D1-8F36-BD5C5AD1A161@gmail.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 23:18:48 +1100 Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:19:22 -0000 On 14 March 2017 at 20:05, Fred Baker wrote: > Many of us likely know that the DNS Root Key will be changing in October.= If you don't know that, you know it now. If you want a view into the testi= ng that is being done related to that, take a look at http://go.icann.org/K= SKtest. I bring it up in this forum primarily because it might affect servi= ces being offered by operators in this working group, and they might want t= o do similar testing prior to the event. > > But we might collectively look through https://blog.apnic.net/2016/11/15/= scoring-dns-root-server-system/, which comments on the rollover, in the con= text of another thread that has come and gone several times here - "could w= e simply deprecate IPv6 fragmentation? Please?" The answer is something alo= ng the lines of "sure, fine, unless you want the DNS Key Rollover to go smo= othly". Yes, DNS root servers could force a fall-back to TCP for 20 days. W= e would be testing some code in a few places that isn't usually tested - an= d requiring that it work. When Mirai tipped parts of Dyn over, it made the = papers. Forcing certain DNS exchanges to shift from UDP to TCP for 20 days = - well, let's just say "I would worry". > > Food for thought. I assume that people drop fragments because there are no port numbers to look at/filter on in them. Shifting fragmentation into the UDP layer would overcome that issue. There may be some light at the end of the tunnel. "Transport Options for UDP" https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-touch-tsvwg-udp-options-05 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Tue Mar 14 06:09:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EDAD129424 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:09:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QAtctlsmdl8d for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [199.6.1.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8EF48128874 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:09:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2AFD924AE76; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:09:11 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BE95160036; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:09:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C1AB1600B7; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:09:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id pULPVEjFTAZI; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:09:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 9CCCB160036; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:09:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id EABCF66C926C; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 00:09:05 +1100 (EST) To: Philip Homburg From: Mark Andrews References: In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Mar 2017 12:42:30 +0100." Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 00:09:05 +1100 Message-Id: <20170314130905.EABCF66C926C@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:09:22 -0000 In message , Philip Homburg writes: > >But we might collectively look through https://blog.apnic.net/2016/11/15/sco > ri > >ng-dns-root-server-system/, which comments on the rollover, in the context o > f > >another thread that has come and gone several times here - "could we simply > de > >precate IPv6 fragmentation? Please?" The answer is something along the lines > o > >f "sure, fine, unless you want the DNS Key Rollover to go smoothly". Yes, DN > S > >root servers could force a fall-back to TCP for 20 days. We would be testing > s > >ome code in a few places that isn't usually tested - and requiring that it w > or > >k. When Mirai tipped parts of Dyn over, it made the papers. Forcing certain > DN > >S exchanges to shift from UDP to TCP for 20 days - well, let's just say "I w > ou > >ld worry". > > ICANN has a nice technical analysis that I can never find. > > In any case, for DNS over UDP, we cannot assume that a root DNS server will > do PMTU discovery. The code will be there, but it just doesn't work. > > So there are three options: > 1) Fragment at 1500. For the KSK rollover that means no fragmentation > 2) Fragment at 1280. For the KSK rollover that means that fragmentation will > happen for a DNSKEY query. > 3) Truncate at 1280. For the KSK rollover that means that truncation will > happen for a DNSKEY query. 4) fragment at 1280 if DNS message size > 1432 This reduces the impact of firewalls that drop packet fragments. This reduces the impact of the firewalls that drop PTB or routers that don't reliable generate PTB. > Assuming that option 3) is out (increase in TCP traffic is too risky) then > 2) is technically correct. However, there is wide spread filtering of > fragments. So 2) results in a significant loss rate. > > So in practice, 1) minimizes loss but is bad for everybody behind a link with > > a low MTU. > > In practice, all of this doesn't really matter because the number of > IPv6-only recursive resolvers is very low. And there is no issue with IPv4. > > One thing that makes me sad, is that it should be relatively easy to > implement PMTU blackhole detection on the DNS client side (set the EDNS > udp size to what fits in 1280 after a few timeouts). But just like the PMTU > blockhole detection for TCP, that doesn't seem wide spread. Blackhole detection has been implemented for a long time. The hard part with DNS is that non answers can be due to: * dead server * packet loss * PMTU discovery in progress * EDNS being blocked/dropped (or only the first EDNS message is responded to, older Microsoft servers have this behaviour) * EDNS OPTIONS being filtered * fragmentation filtering Then even if the PTB gets through, the DNS authoritative server can't construct a new response as the OPT record is at the end of the message and its contents are crucial to regenerating the response. That is usually missing from the PTB ICMP contents. The DNS recursive server is trying to workout what is the cause and return a response to the initial client all in < 3 seconds. draft-touch-tsvwg-udp-options could help here but it is a long term solution. Mark > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Tue Mar 14 06:12:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8CAC012943D for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:12:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zblQwesMThDN for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 282B1129424 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 14 Mar 2017 13:12:42 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 129A6D788A; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:12:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=7N2Rwepf/9leaB1W6lni8pyJfkc=; b= HTtkfHJ0sVOFNltLfvfrPxEwMVgNoriwxZfEW3d1Cr39FpJC9nwI74XE+l7MGiax cj2Pa/T8NVCS5n7YFKbaQLdG/tK8BYXBqXnlmtF1typx14OLCZHdrHZawwAdVD3j 6efOdWrwJRNRjS3oR5KD/L66t5XAKuAG/xFneeoUCfg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=hCMr/i8yG3o2ysZxSmFdB2K uOxTYTDaj4AQjM2uxjYGuHmpA/zNUJSYs5kEEYT1O9+ASlRd0D32wQJE2wxFeqna TVfwRq65g64nYfOXskjVEFSi4R/QgKnXrms+BgU2R2uEiKt9Uj5vGu6anJh3EdOY zWgUkqCYegsZHMHsbA00= Received: from h.hanazo.no (unknown [173.38.220.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A810FD788E; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:12:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06EA49D6BA3E; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 14:12:40 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <61D99796-876C-4F59-A225-2AFAE00F8F74@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_62EA0953-E196-446F-9456-7C6403DF4398"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 14:12:39 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20170314130905.EABCF66C926C@rock.dv.isc.org> To: Mark Andrews References: <20170314130905.EABCF66C926C@rock.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:12:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_62EA0953-E196-446F-9456-7C6403DF4398 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mark, >>> But we might collectively look through = https://blog.apnic.net/2016/11/15/sco >> ri >>> ng-dns-root-server-system/, which comments on the rollover, in the = context o >> f >>> another thread that has come and gone several times here - "could we = simply >> de >>> precate IPv6 fragmentation? Please?" The answer is something along = the lines >> o >>> f "sure, fine, unless you want the DNS Key Rollover to go smoothly". = Yes, DN >> S >>> root servers could force a fall-back to TCP for 20 days. We would be = testing >> s >>> ome code in a few places that isn't usually tested - and requiring = that it w >> or >>> k. When Mirai tipped parts of Dyn over, it made the papers. Forcing = certain >> DN >>> S exchanges to shift from UDP to TCP for 20 days - well, let's just = say "I w >> ou >>> ld worry". >>=20 >> ICANN has a nice technical analysis that I can never find. >>=20 >> In any case, for DNS over UDP, we cannot assume that a root DNS = server will >> do PMTU discovery. The code will be there, but it just doesn't work. >>=20 >> So there are three options: >> 1) Fragment at 1500. For the KSK rollover that means no fragmentation >> 2) Fragment at 1280. For the KSK rollover that means that = fragmentation will >> happen for a DNSKEY query. >> 3) Truncate at 1280. For the KSK rollover that means that truncation = will >> happen for a DNSKEY query. >=20 > 4) fragment at 1280 if DNS message size > 1432 >=20 > This reduces the impact of firewalls that drop packet fragments. How so? Wouldn't that still lead to one fragment without the transport = header? > This reduces the impact of the firewalls that drop PTB or routers that > don't reliable generate PTB. Routers never reliably generate PTB. That's in the spec. >> Assuming that option 3) is out (increase in TCP traffic is too risky) = then >> 2) is technically correct. However, there is wide spread filtering of >> fragments. So 2) results in a significant loss rate. >>=20 >> So in practice, 1) minimizes loss but is bad for everybody behind a = link with >>=20 >> a low MTU. >>=20 >> In practice, all of this doesn't really matter because the number of >> IPv6-only recursive resolvers is very low. And there is no issue with = IPv4. >>=20 >> One thing that makes me sad, is that it should be relatively easy to >> implement PMTU blackhole detection on the DNS client side (set the = EDNS >> udp size to what fits in 1280 after a few timeouts). But just like = the PMTU >> blockhole detection for TCP, that doesn't seem wide spread. >=20 > Blackhole detection has been implemented for a long time. >=20 > The hard part with DNS is that non answers can be due to: >=20 > * dead server > * packet loss > * PMTU discovery in progress > * EDNS being blocked/dropped (or only the first EDNS message is = responded to, > older Microsoft servers have this = behaviour) > * EDNS OPTIONS being filtered > * fragmentation filtering >=20 > Then even if the PTB gets through, the DNS authoritative server can't > construct a new response as the OPT record is at the end of the > message and its contents are crucial to regenerating the response. > That is usually missing from the PTB ICMP contents. >=20 > The DNS recursive server is trying to workout what is the cause and > return a response to the initial client all in < 3 seconds. >=20 > draft-touch-tsvwg-udp-options could help here but it is a long term > solution. Cheers, Ole --Apple-Mail=_62EA0953-E196-446F-9456-7C6403DF4398 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYx+xHAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92ZJYQAJGpB7YWSoW/La9B5TA2cvfx +BYyh+wvzyYQLnWe4OOLU/JenlkaqHitkZ8BVGg3SwChyIYwdXcpxRqhhgpcQYMk ZVAcDkrFN4Me0k+7bnV+BRp4DSrSCBeADZWnY4VFBKyeiPOqGOMMQsolLq+71rAV eWT3oVbk8NKu9Y4WhrCwYUNuvwrdTwS/zzgvssRE5zlaXIaSVg/A+lYx4yOINeJt clqqrDp8Z0rdOCyrFyS+0FXL0CmalvG4bg55Jvy3HCgmUSaDOyZRL+zxv0/louQs /OTzrsNoRhVxbGpGUrW/IQPdRf++3Kmlds8O0gHi4igcuarDlYiBte2eQRMHWd/Z WLHWXSM7Lk+IpLpFjvTIpDtF3R3jvPd0CcYImHT1Kj4cvrmwyHuK5amOWm0rDOOb zbdZGl7xPAnqPpQ8dHs7P7YlIojTvIafnIZqPjPLODkAFlF/HArfCuPC/kv/iXW/ YMZikIEuq2v56JIfY/ZVWh1pgMdoarx8BxEylXtkhLw0tYdo/Z78dhOpo3YTu+yF WQNy6DxftLcldr1J2AryDrEtJfEssCPUiWHJ0T9R0EnzjXRf+jPb3EgrY9HvnIxr 8lxqZl3WarWZ1MZe0lJf2yVRIMh2h3Aw6tE+bkGd/kauAQKUIIEJzPgHJOI58JNE ZYJkblvnHa49E8dbU1cz =Yhmo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_62EA0953-E196-446F-9456-7C6403DF4398-- From nobody Tue Mar 14 06:34:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C12A11294A7 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:34:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D1psxPG6c5q1 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [149.20.64.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48429128874 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 06:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 684FD3497A1; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:34:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43E8B160036; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:34:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 254021600B7; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:34:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 2sw4vSGUabI2; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:34:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 16510160036; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:34:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D35D366C94F9; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 00:34:39 +1100 (EST) To: otroan@employees.org From: Mark Andrews References: <20170314130905.EABCF66C926C@rock.dv.isc.org> <61D99796-876C-4F59-A225-2AFAE00F8F74@employees.org> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Mar 2017 14:12:39 +0100." <61D99796-876C-4F59-A225-2AFAE00F8F74@employees.org> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 00:34:39 +1100 Message-Id: <20170314133439.D35D366C94F9@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 13:34:51 -0000 In message <61D99796-876C-4F59-A225-2AFAE00F8F74@employees.org>, otroan@employe es.org writes: > > Mark, > > >>> But we might collectively look through > https://blog.apnic.net/2016/11/15/sco > >> ri > >>> ng-dns-root-server-system/, which comments on the rollover, in the > context o > >> f > >>> another thread that has come and gone several times here - "could we > simply > >> de > >>> precate IPv6 fragmentation? Please?" The answer is something along > the lines > >> o > >>> f "sure, fine, unless you want the DNS Key Rollover to go smoothly". > Yes, DN > >> S > >>> root servers could force a fall-back to TCP for 20 days. We would be > testing > >> s > >>> ome code in a few places that isn't usually tested - and requiring > that it w > >> or > >>> k. When Mirai tipped parts of Dyn over, it made the papers. Forcing > certain > >> DN > >>> S exchanges to shift from UDP to TCP for 20 days - well, let's just > say "I w > >> ou > >>> ld worry". > >> > >> ICANN has a nice technical analysis that I can never find. > >> > >> In any case, for DNS over UDP, we cannot assume that a root DNS server > will > >> do PMTU discovery. The code will be there, but it just doesn't work. > >> > >> So there are three options: > >> 1) Fragment at 1500. For the KSK rollover that means no fragmentation > >> 2) Fragment at 1280. For the KSK rollover that means that > fragmentation will > >> happen for a DNSKEY query. > >> 3) Truncate at 1280. For the KSK rollover that means that truncation > will > >> happen for a DNSKEY query. > > > > 4) fragment at 1280 if DNS message size > 1432 > > > > This reduces the impact of firewalls that drop packet fragments. > > How so? Wouldn't that still lead to one fragment without the transport > header? It lets DNS messages between 1280 and 1432 be emitted without being fragmented and removes most PMTUD issues around IPv6 in IPv4. It's a balancing act that should have to be done. Firewall vendors could also be smarted about how they allow reply traffic through. There really is no reason to block all fragments. > > This reduces the impact of the firewalls that drop PTB or routers that > > don't reliable generate PTB. > > Routers never reliably generate PTB. That's in the spec. But there is reliable enough and ridiculously rate limited. > >> Assuming that option 3) is out (increase in TCP traffic is too risky) > then > >> 2) is technically correct. However, there is wide spread filtering of > >> fragments. So 2) results in a significant loss rate. > >> > >> So in practice, 1) minimizes loss but is bad for everybody behind a > link with > >> > >> a low MTU. > >> > >> In practice, all of this doesn't really matter because the number of > >> IPv6-only recursive resolvers is very low. And there is no issue with > IPv4. > >> > >> One thing that makes me sad, is that it should be relatively easy to > >> implement PMTU blackhole detection on the DNS client side (set the EDNS > >> udp size to what fits in 1280 after a few timeouts). But just like the > PMTU > >> blockhole detection for TCP, that doesn't seem wide spread. > > > > Blackhole detection has been implemented for a long time. > > > > The hard part with DNS is that non answers can be due to: > > > > * dead server > > * packet loss > > * PMTU discovery in progress > > * EDNS being blocked/dropped (or only the first EDNS message is > responded to, > > older Microsoft servers have this behaviour) > > * EDNS OPTIONS being filtered > > * fragmentation filtering > > > > Then even if the PTB gets through, the DNS authoritative server can't > > construct a new response as the OPT record is at the end of the > > message and its contents are crucial to regenerating the response. > > That is usually missing from the PTB ICMP contents. > > > > The DNS recursive server is trying to workout what is the cause and > > return a response to the initial client all in < 3 seconds. > > > > draft-touch-tsvwg-udp-options could help here but it is a long term > > solution. > > Cheers, > Ole -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Tue Mar 14 07:41:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C40B6127ABF for ; 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SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2049; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2049; x-forefront-prvs: 02462830BE x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(39860400002)(39840400002)(39850400002)(39450400003)(39410400002)(7736002)(2900100001)(305945005)(6116002)(55016002)(99286003)(74316002)(230783001)(8936002)(102836003)(3846002)(81166006)(8676002)(38730400002)(110136004)(53936002)(25786008)(9686003)(122556002)(77096006)(6506006)(6436002)(3660700001)(3280700002)(189998001)(6916009)(7696004)(558084003)(33656002)(5660300001)(2906002)(54356999)(50986999)(86362001)(66066001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2049; H:BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Mar 2017 14:40:58.8473 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0501MB2049 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.17 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 14:41:03 -0000 Folks, This message initiates a Working Group Last Call (WGLC) for draft-ietf-v6op= s-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02. Since IETF is approaching, we will let th= e last call run a little longer than usual. Please submit comments to the list by April 11, 2017. = Lee, Fred and Ron From nobody Tue Mar 14 08:20:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9C2D3128DF6; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:19:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mMGMgEcLwAOH; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x241.google.com (mail-it0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2BB74129502; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:19:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x241.google.com with SMTP id r141so232842ita.1; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:19:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SImTj+vIvG5WxHeqJOcA3/jKGMtp+79NRilBkWzvx5c=; b=I9DTDodGcouPd45dOqiifpLK0HNRLWAWchry/ttbWV9hLCTrt2oJGKm9pJCZeXNcn/ LFOirZacMD2o5uzqOI6mMZ0NZbS0mCs0pONos4d12gtfYNujKUW9KPxCduEqV6wVouqm cMPQh3zJzzUuCgfBIkp70QMxm5WHCEM1t5Pv4+0dScP1ZpoewFThJphblPXdkFtVUsmC bZ2W7TTtLpdLcLKbBuD4bDLCwHm2YHq/RascNRxtUYdc8hTb2Q9tKE6gbm33Ql+N5RtT cRFe+YDFrbGnaLcxpt2EXhuAbtue6S9i5JWf8N787oXOj5yN9Px2/su1Rewb6004aOSj z9qA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SImTj+vIvG5WxHeqJOcA3/jKGMtp+79NRilBkWzvx5c=; b=GYvGhpA98TXByfIhcOBvkJC4zoMBgAY8IummUYyeCxbVycxreu/Z6WQtO66fmrctKf CD/3xoaIUBTvTu49bqzRIKa4avoTln0ILx28QtyhxCtTeeOgRxsw9AuwEKBMtsFGcmVF XLSbrV1nKl3CXXqCfOUvXYaR61eEpXVHoL+0OAvKUo78ul9cxfViqYMe1h6hSMgUdibl eTYHTqkkN80qbEgDTSOg275sTMk2QxyYB5Ero/tkzwQzcCxWTrI4VQTWIlJj/10BsEmI g8sHHQrAgXIb2HiFybkVjwc7cbYmYGlCxdn1Nrg5U/T/wSZhCpydpoDtjcXyKOFcg2XQ QV7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H07xWfFpnNx6boAhGIr9z+fkhrNNzck3+CXMiDenPQ1/2K1QdxdmwFsK9DFiaxWWw== X-Received: by 10.36.84.211 with SMTP id t202mr368703ita.96.1489504797490; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:19:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.11.95] (50-76-68-137-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.76.68.137]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g23sm84655ioi.20.2017.03.14.08.19.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Mar 2017 08:19:56 -0700 (PDT) To: Tore Anderson , Fred Baker References: <5C6A51B8-3551-478D-86F9-538727073E83@gmail.com> <20170314073817.7a5458b2@echo.ms.redpill-linpro.com> <20170314093341.228ef2ec@echo.ms.redpill-linpro.com> Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" , " Chairs" , v6ops-ads@ietf.org From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <1b14cefc-a8af-1759-735f-893beeb3eeed@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 04:20:01 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170314093341.228ef2ec@echo.ms.redpill-linpro.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] IETF 98 Agenda X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:19:59 -0000 On 14/03/2017 21:33, Tore Anderson wrote: > * Fred Baker >=20 >> We have been puzzling over the minutes. >> https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/97/minutes/minutes-97-v6ops-00.txt >> says "Lee Howard: hum on adoption, which leads to adoption of this >> I-D by V6OPS." I wasn't there, and Ron doesn't remember.=20 >=20 > The way I remembered it was that there was indeed a successful adoption= > hum (that is, I was told there was, couldn't hear it myself through > MeetEcho) and that the next step was for me to upload the draft with > the =C2=ABietf=C2=BB tag in the name. >=20 > It took me way too long to get around to it (apologies), but better lat= e > than never I suppose. >=20 >> Was that an agreement to adopt not checked on the mailing list? Implicitly yes, since the minutes stated it and nobody challenged the minutes, as far as I know. So within the rules, it's adopted IMNSHO. Brian > I don't think so, I don't believe there has been any activity regarding= > the draft on the list since IETF97 at all. >=20 >> In any event, yes, I think the next step is a WGLC, not a presentation= =2E >=20 > Great. >=20 > Tore >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 From nobody Tue Mar 14 11:39:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5109D1291F5 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:39:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6ARzKc9L4pSJ for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vapor.isi.edu (vapor.isi.edu [128.9.64.64]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D45E31291DC for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.184.222] ([128.9.184.222]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2EIcioo025733 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:38:45 -0700 (PDT) To: Philip Homburg , v6ops@ietf.org References: From: Joe Touch Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:38:45 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 18:39:08 -0000 On 3/14/2017 4:42 AM, Philip Homburg wrote: >> But we might collectively look through https://blog.apnic.net/2016/11/15/scori >> ng-dns-root-server-system/, which comments on the rollover, in the context of >> another thread that has come and gone several times here - "could we simply de >> precate IPv6 fragmentation? Please?" The answer is something along the lines o >> f "sure, fine, unless you want the DNS Key Rollover to go smoothly". Yes, DNS >> root servers could force a fall-back to TCP for 20 days. We would be testing s >> ome code in a few places that isn't usually tested - and requiring that it wor >> k. When Mirai tipped parts of Dyn over, it made the papers. Forcing certain DN >> S exchanges to shift from UDP to TCP for 20 days - well, let's just say "I wou >> ld worry". > ICANN has a nice technical analysis that I can never find. > > In any case, for DNS over UDP, we cannot assume that a root DNS server will > do PMTU discovery. The code will be there, but it just doesn't work. > > So there are three options: > 1) Fragment at 1500. For the KSK rollover that means no fragmentation > 2) Fragment at 1280. For the KSK rollover that means that fragmentation will > happen for a DNSKEY query. > 3) Truncate at 1280. For the KSK rollover that means that truncation will > happen for a DNSKEY query. IMO, if things are going to break, they ought to break because others fail to support existing specs, not the DNS operators. Thus, IMO, fragment at MIN(path MTU if known, 1280), truncate at 1500 (as per RFC2460). Joe From nobody Tue Mar 14 15:40:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E3D9131446 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:40:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id twEe6JJKa1dm for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [149.20.64.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B0F9129BC5 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:40:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 02C483498C5; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 22:40:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E589A1600B8; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 22:40:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD61F1600B9; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 22:40:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id YzuxXG2_f6Ks; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 22:40:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C49F91600B8; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 22:40:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F36366CA1F7; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 09:40:04 +1100 (EST) To: Joe Touch Cc: Philip Homburg , v6ops@ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Mar 2017 11:38:45 -0700." Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 09:40:04 +1100 Message-Id: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 22:40:15 -0000 In message , Joe Touch writes: > > > On 3/14/2017 4:42 AM, Philip Homburg wrote: > >> But we might collectively look through https://blog.apnic.net/2016/11/15/s > cori > >> ng-dns-root-server-system/, which comments on the rollover, in the context > of > >> another thread that has come and gone several times here - "could we simpl > y de > >> precate IPv6 fragmentation? Please?" The answer is something along the lin > es o > >> f "sure, fine, unless you want the DNS Key Rollover to go smoothly". Yes, > DNS > >> root servers could force a fall-back to TCP for 20 days. We would be testi > ng s > >> ome code in a few places that isn't usually tested - and requiring that it > wor > >> k. When Mirai tipped parts of Dyn over, it made the papers. Forcing certai > n DN > >> S exchanges to shift from UDP to TCP for 20 days - well, let's just say "I > wou > >> ld worry". > > ICANN has a nice technical analysis that I can never find. > > > > In any case, for DNS over UDP, we cannot assume that a root DNS server will > > do PMTU discovery. The code will be there, but it just doesn't work. > > > > So there are three options: > > 1) Fragment at 1500. For the KSK rollover that means no fragmentation > > 2) Fragment at 1280. For the KSK rollover that means that fragmentation wil > l > > happen for a DNSKEY query. > > 3) Truncate at 1280. For the KSK rollover that means that truncation will > > happen for a DNSKEY query. > > IMO, if things are going to break, they ought to break because others > fail to support existing specs, not the DNS operators. > > Thus, IMO, fragment at MIN(path MTU if known, 1280), truncate at 1500 > (as per RFC2460). > > Joe It is fragment at 1280 and truncate at EDNS UDP buffer size. PMTUD is a right royal pain for DNS servers even for TCP. When we actually did this we get bad press because we are generating responses that get blocked by stupid firewalls. If you let through UDP fragments, offset != 0 and test the ports on UDP fragments with offset == 0 the worst you have is some extra traffic and fragment reassembly failure counters going up. If you add source and destination address checks with a resetable timer each time a new outgoing UDP packet that matches the address pair to the first half above you remove most of the extra traffic. Unfortunately I don't believe you can buy firewall that does this simple to implement strategy that lets fragmented responses work. Firewall vendors go for the nuclear option. Block all fragments. Of that list of cause for non responses, firewall cause about half of them: * EDNS being blocked/dropped (or only the first EDNS message is responded to, older Microsoft servers have this behaviour) * EDNS OPTIONS being filtered * fragmentation filtering In the future there wall also be operational issues with * EDNS version != 0 being filtered * EDNS flag XXXX being filtered At the moment the last two only impact testing traffic and protocol developers needing to decide how to how to fix / extend the DNS. They have already stopped DNSOP bumping the EDNS version number when cleaning up EDNS unknown option handling in RFC 6891. EDNS(0) undefined => EDNS(1) ignore. This is how it should have been done in a sane world without stupid firewall vendors that just block anything that is not what is currently being used irrespective of whether there was well defined behaviour for how to handle EDNS(1) queries when you only support EDNS(0) or not. Mark > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Tue Mar 14 15:49:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30891129B4C for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:49:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id eE52PsihpIwb for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:49:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nitro.isi.edu (nitro.isi.edu [128.9.208.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE5AC129440 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.160.211] (mul.isi.edu [128.9.160.211]) (authenticated bits=0) by nitro.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2EMmkXE016127 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:48:46 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Andrews References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> Cc: Philip Homburg , v6ops@ietf.org From: Joe Touch Message-ID: Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:48:46 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-MailScanner-ID: v2EMmkXE016127 X-ISI-4-69-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 22:49:02 -0000 On 3/14/2017 3:40 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > In message , Joe Touch writes: >> ... >> IMO, if things are going to break, they ought to break because others >> fail to support existing specs, not the DNS operators. >> >> Thus, IMO, fragment at MIN(path MTU if known, 1280), truncate at 1500 >> (as per RFC2460). >> >> Joe > It is fragment at 1280 and truncate at EDNS UDP buffer size. Fragment at 1280, because that's the min guaranteed by IPv6 as a hop MTU (if you know better via PMTUD, use that). Truncate at 1500 because that's the min guaranteed reassembly by IPv6. UDP has nothing to do with it, unless you're using some sort of UDP reassembly (see draft-touch-udp-options). Otherwise, it's the IP EMTU_R that matters. > PMTUD > is a right royal pain for DNS servers even for TCP. When we actually > did this we get bad press because we are generating responses that > get blocked by stupid firewalls. > > If you let through UDP fragments, You mean IP fragments... ;-) > offset != 0 and test the ports > on UDP fragments with offset == 0 the worst you have is some extra > traffic and fragment reassembly failure counters going up. If you > add source and destination address checks with a resetable timer > each time a new outgoing UDP packet that matches the address pair > to the first half above you remove most of the extra traffic. > > Unfortunately I don't believe you can buy firewall that does this > simple to implement strategy that lets fragmented responses work. > Firewall vendors go for the nuclear option. Block all fragments. Understood, and that means their products do not support IPv6. Until we actually publish that list, we can't do much. However, I really don't want to make products that don't support near-1500b links "non compliant" with IPv6, e.g., by assuming an IP fragmentation boundary that's larger. If something is going to be flogged for breaking, let it be the broken one. The only way around the fragment blocking issue is to fragment at a higher layer - above UDP, or (per the draft above), within UDP. Joe From nobody Tue Mar 14 16:14:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3C25131629 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 16:14:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9JG2UfjlVa1J for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 16:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [199.6.1.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3305D131624 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 16:14:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DECE124AE7A; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 23:13:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 609CC1600BA; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 23:13:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 465A81600B9; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 23:13:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id x7a4AGw3AdMX; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 23:13:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 524F51600B8; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 23:13:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AA9666CA5ED; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:13:12 +1100 (EST) To: Joe Touch Cc: Philip Homburg , v6ops@ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Mar 2017 15:48:46 -0700." Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 10:13:12 +1100 Message-Id: <20170314231312.2AA9666CA5ED@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 23:14:39 -0000 In message , Joe Touch writes: > > > On 3/14/2017 3:40 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > > In message , Joe Touch writes > : > >> ... > >> IMO, if things are going to break, they ought to break because others > >> fail to support existing specs, not the DNS operators. > >> > >> Thus, IMO, fragment at MIN(path MTU if known, 1280), truncate at 1500 > >> (as per RFC2460). > >> > >> Joe > > It is fragment at 1280 and truncate at EDNS UDP buffer size. > > Fragment at 1280, because that's the min guaranteed by IPv6 as a hop MTU > (if you know better via PMTUD, use that). > > Truncate at 1500 because that's the min guaranteed reassembly by IPv6. EDNS UDP buffer size is supposed to be set at less than or equal reassembly size supported by the node. 1500 is the minimum that needs to be supported by all nodes. DNS can negotiate bigger sizes and that is usually around 4K. For TCP the segment should fit in a 1280 packet. Setting IPV6_USE_MIN_MTU to 1 should get both UDP fragmentation and TCP MSS correct unless there is a bug in the IPv6 stack. The UDP packet size is controlled by the advertised EDNS UDP buffer size option. > UDP has nothing to do with it, unless you're using some sort of UDP > reassembly (see draft-touch-udp-options). Otherwise, it's the IP EMTU_R > that matters. > > > PMTUD > > is a right royal pain for DNS servers even for TCP. When we actually > > did this we get bad press because we are generating responses that > > get blocked by stupid firewalls. > > > > If you let through UDP fragments, > You mean IP fragments... ;-) Well IPv6 fragments with a final next header of UDP. TCP shouldn't be sending fragmented IPv6 packets unless the sending stack is broken. TCP is supposed to consider the actual MTU's in use. If draft-touch-udp-options become reality I will need to be more precise. :-) > > offset != 0 and test the ports > > on UDP fragments with offset == 0 the worst you have is some extra > > traffic and fragment reassembly failure counters going up. If you > > add source and destination address checks with a resetable timer > > each time a new outgoing UDP packet that matches the address pair > > to the first half above you remove most of the extra traffic. > > > > Unfortunately I don't believe you can buy firewall that does this > > simple to implement strategy that lets fragmented responses work. > > Firewall vendors go for the nuclear option. Block all fragments. > > Understood, and that means their products do not support IPv6. Until we > actually publish that list, we can't do much. > > However, I really don't want to make products that don't support > near-1500b links "non compliant" with IPv6, e.g., by assuming an IP > fragmentation boundary that's larger. If something is going to be > flogged for breaking, let it be the broken one. > > The only way around the fragment blocking issue is to fragment at a > higher layer - above UDP, or (per the draft above), within UDP. > Joe Which still requires firewalls to be fixed. They will need to allow more than 1 response packet to the DNS/UDP request. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Tue Mar 14 16:16:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A9D7131631 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 16:16:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FTzq0-dimYow for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 16:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vapor.isi.edu (vapor.isi.edu [128.9.64.64]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A1E8131624 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 16:16:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.184.222] ([128.9.184.222]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2ENGIVG026169 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Tue, 14 Mar 2017 16:16:19 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Andrews References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> <20170314231312.2AA9666CA5ED@rock.dv.isc.org> Cc: Philip Homburg , v6ops@ietf.org From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <6b081cb1-ce8e-c86e-5147-d36428f20d82@isi.edu> Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 16:16:19 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170314231312.2AA9666CA5ED@rock.dv.isc.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 Mar 2017 23:16:46 -0000 On 3/14/2017 4:13 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > In message , Joe Touch writes: >> ... >> Fragment at 1280, because that's the min guaranteed by IPv6 as a hop MTU >> (if you know better via PMTUD, use that). >> >> Truncate at 1500 because that's the min guaranteed reassembly by IPv6. > EDNS UDP buffer size is supposed to be set at less than or equal > reassembly size supported by the node. 1500 is the minimum that > needs to be supported by all nodes. DNS can negotiate bigger sizes > and that is usually around 4K. > > For TCP the segment should fit in a 1280 packet. > > Setting IPV6_USE_MIN_MTU to 1 should get both UDP fragmentation and > TCP MSS correct unless there is a bug in the IPv6 stack. > > The UDP packet size is controlled by the advertised EDNS UDP buffer size > option. Ahh - thanks. Yes, if you know that the EMTU_R is larger (which is what the EDNS UDP buffer size would indicate), then indicate that. > >> UDP has nothing to do with it, unless you're using some sort of UDP >> reassembly (see draft-touch-udp-options). Otherwise, it's the IP EMTU_R >> that matters. >> >>> PMTUD >>> is a right royal pain for DNS servers even for TCP. When we actually >>> did this we get bad press because we are generating responses that >>> get blocked by stupid firewalls. >>> >>> If you let through UDP fragments, >> You mean IP fragments... ;-) > Well IPv6 fragments with a final next header of UDP. TCP shouldn't > be sending fragmented IPv6 packets unless the sending stack is > broken. TCP is supposed to consider the actual MTU's in use. > > If draft-touch-udp-options become reality I will need to be more > precise. :-) > >>> offset != 0 and test the ports >>> on UDP fragments with offset == 0 the worst you have is some extra >>> traffic and fragment reassembly failure counters going up. If you >>> add source and destination address checks with a resetable timer >>> each time a new outgoing UDP packet that matches the address pair >>> to the first half above you remove most of the extra traffic. >>> >>> Unfortunately I don't believe you can buy firewall that does this >>> simple to implement strategy that lets fragmented responses work. >>> Firewall vendors go for the nuclear option. Block all fragments. >> Understood, and that means their products do not support IPv6. Until we >> actually publish that list, we can't do much. >> >> However, I really don't want to make products that don't support >> near-1500b links "non compliant" with IPv6, e.g., by assuming an IP >> fragmentation boundary that's larger. If something is going to be >> flogged for breaking, let it be the broken one. >> >> The only way around the fragment blocking issue is to fragment at a >> higher layer - above UDP, or (per the draft above), within UDP. >> Joe > Which still requires firewalls to be fixed. They will need to allow > more than 1 response packet to the DNS/UDP request. Yes, and they should already ;-) Joe From nobody Tue Mar 14 19:54:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6D36F131862 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 19:54:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VEhtE_zZxYmG for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 19:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-in2.apple.com (mail-out2.apple.com [17.151.62.25]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 906F4131850 for ; 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CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Mark, We have operational data proving that asynchronous DNS is not "for no good reason". DNS queries fail rarely (it still happens) but they often can take several hundreds of milliseconds longer. The user shouldn't have to wait that delay for their webpage to load, and our data shows that this timer fires regularly in the field indicating that users would have been needlessly waiting for their content. Why should we artificially delay the user's experience for an A response if we already have the AAAA? Erik, Thanks for the suggestions! - we'll add a section about problems that Happy Eyeballs do not solve - regarding the increased retry timer, this is somewhat covered by historical RTT information. I don't think failures to reach the first address should harm the next ones, as that defeats redundancy - I do agree that the main downside of Happy Eyeballs is hiding failures, but enforcing clients have a reporting system seems uncommon for IETF protocols, do you know of any? - Regarding TFO / TLS 1.3 0RTT I think the requirement is that you MUST NOT use those if your data isn't idempotent, as packets could be duplicated in the network. This is orthogonal to Happy Eyeballs. Thanks, David Schinazi > On Mar 13, 2017, at 19:02, Erik Nygren wrote: > > It's great to see an updated version of this guidance! > > > There is zero reason for making async DNS a MUST. > > The bare minimum is that revolvers must do A and AAAA lookups in parallel. > The current behavior of some stacks is to do the AAAA and A lookups in series. > This means effectively means that adding IPv6 connectivity to a client adds an > extra RTT in for almost all DNS lookups. > For example, see section 5 in: https://www.akamai.com/us/en/multimedia/documents/technical-publication/a-case-for-faster-mobile-web-in-cellular-ipv6-networks.pdf > For clients such as mobile device visiting sites with lots of hostnames, > this can have a very substantial performance hit. This also shows up > in some RUM-based measurement reports making IPv6 look slower > (due to clients with IPv6 spending more time doing DNS lookups before > doing page loads). > > Doing the lookups in parallel but not waiting for both responses is better than serial, > but still has a perf hit (whatever the recovery time plus an RTT) when > the A or AAAA lookup packet is lost. > > Some additional comments/thoughts after reading through the -01 version: > > * It would be good to add a section on failure cases NOT detected/mitigated by this form of Happy Eyeballs. > Even if not covering mitigations, it would still be good to discuss them for awareness. > > - In particular, PMTUD seems to be the most common. ie, if there is a PMTUD issue between > the client and server, then the connect will often succeed but the connection will fail to function. > I think most large-scale IPv6 server operators (plus many of small ones) have broken this at least once. > One client-side mitigation for TCP might be for the client to offer progressively smaller MSS > as it retries different IPs within a protocol family. > (I don't know if anyone does or has tried this? There is the server-side pmtud probing feature.) > For UDP protocols, using full-frame packets for the SYN and the SYN-ACK (as QUIC does) seems > like one approach to at least detect breakage early, although QUIC doesn't key have a PMTUD > mitigation solution AFAIK. > > - Servers that return different content for IPv6 vs IPv4 (eg, "404 not found" due to an unconfigured server on the IPv6 side). > "Don't do this" as advice to server operators is likely the best way to fix it as hacking around it on the client side is unhelpful. > > * It may make sense to recommend some form of back-off in the retry timing. Rather than a fixed value (eg, 250ms), adding > an increasing time value with some jitter into each retry may be safer in the cases of overloaded servers > or a network connection that is borderline near the retry time. I've seen congestive failure and lack-of-progress > scenarios from having a fixed retry timer. For example, with servers that do FIFO queueing of connections to accept, > if the queue becomes longer than the retry period then all clients fail to make forward progress and you reach > congestive collapse. The same can happen with links that become high-latency, however. > > * It may be worth adding some guidance into reporting and visibility. I'm not sure how? > One of the big complaints against Happy Eyeballs is that it masks brokenness (latency spikes > but things keep working so no one complains enough to fix the root cause). > Having a recommendation that stacks or applications at least keep counters and telemetry > on failures may at least make it more viable to debug? > > * It would be good to provide guidance or a reminder around protocols that send data along with a SYN > or an initial flight (eg, TCP Fast Open / TFO and TLS 1.3 0RTT). In particular, you likely > want to send this ONLY on one connection attempt (eg, the IPv6 attempt?) as otherwise > the operation may be executed twice by the server. This may cause undue server load > and for apps/clients incorrectly using TFO or 0RTT for non-idempotent operations > it could cause duplicate actions. > > Thanks! Erik > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 11:53 PM, David Schinazi > wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Thanks a lot for the comments and feedback. > We've incorporated them into -01, please let us know if they were properly addressed. > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-01.txt > > Regards, > David Schinazi > > >> On Mar 10, 2017, at 14:54, Philip Homburg > wrote: >> >> In your letter dated Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:29:55 -0800 you wrote: >>> We can certainly soften some of the language to make it clear that if >>> your system has no such option, you are not necessarily out of spec, but if su >>> ch an option is available, we believe that it SHOULD indeed be used. This fits >>> with the Happy Eyeballs paradigm: if I am waiting for one of the DNS response >>> s to come back, I could have already made my connection in that time, getting >>> the user the resource loaded more quickly. >> >> If the DNS requirements can be toned down to the point that an application >> can use getaddrinfo if that fits the application, then that's fine >> with me. >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > --Boundary_(ID_F8KG9fRFqYtBb8MnlxB0dw) Content-type: text/html; CHARSET=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Mark,

We have operational data proving that = asynchronous DNS is not "for no good reason".
DNS = queries fail rarely (it still happens) but they often can take several = hundreds of milliseconds longer.
The user shouldn't = have to wait that delay for their webpage to load, and our data shows = that this timer
fires regularly in the field = indicating that users would have been needlessly waiting for their = content.
Why should we artificially delay the = user's experience for an A response if we already have the = AAAA?

Erik,

Thanks for the suggestions!
- we'll add = a section about problems that Happy Eyeballs do not solve
- regarding the increased retry timer, this is somewhat = covered by historical RTT information.
  =   I don't think failures to reach the first address should harm the = next ones, as that defeats redundancy
- I do agree = that the main downside of Happy Eyeballs is hiding failures,
    but enforcing clients have a reporting system = seems uncommon for IETF protocols, do you know of any?
- Regarding TFO / TLS 1.3 0RTT I think the requirement is = that you MUST NOT use those
    if your = data isn't idempotent, as packets could be duplicated in the network. = This is orthogonal to Happy Eyeballs.

Thanks,
David = Schinazi


On = Mar 13, 2017, at 19:02, Erik Nygren <erik+ietf@nygren.org> wrote:

It's great to see an updated version of this = guidance!

> There is zero reason for = making async DNS a MUST. 

The bare minimum is that revolvers must do A and AAAA lookups = in parallel.
The current behavior of = some stacks is to do the AAAA and A lookups in series.
This= means effectively means that adding IPv6 connectivity to a client adds = an
extra RTT in for almost all DNS = lookups. 
For example, see = section 5 in:  https://www.akamai.com/us/en/multimedia/documents/technical-pub= lication/a-case-for-faster-mobile-web-in-cellular-ipv6-networks.pdf
For clients such as mobile device = visiting sites with lots of hostnames,
this can have a very substantial performance hit.  This = also shows up
in some RUM-based = measurement reports making IPv6 look slower
(due to clients with IPv6 spending more time doing DNS = lookups before
doing page loads). =

Doing the lookups in parallel but not = waiting for both responses is better than serial,
but still has a perf hit (whatever the recovery time plus an = RTT) when
the A or AAAA lookup packet is lost.

Some additional = comments/thoughts after reading through the -01 version:
* It would be good to add a section on failure cases = NOT detected/mitigated by this form of Happy Eyeballs.
   Even if not covering = mitigations, it would still be good to discuss them for awareness.

    - In particular, = PMTUD seems to be the most common.  ie, if there is a PMTUD issue = between
      the client and server, = then the connect will often succeed but the connection will fail to = function.
      I think most large-scale IPv6 = server operators (plus many of small ones) have broken this at least = once.
      One client-side = mitigation for TCP might be for the client to offer progressively = smaller MSS
      as it retries = different IPs within a protocol family.
      (I don't know if anyone = does or has tried this?  There is the server-side pmtud probing = feature.)
      For UDP = protocols, using full-frame packets for the SYN and the SYN-ACK (as QUIC = does) seems
      like one = approach to at least detect breakage early, although QUIC doesn't key = have a PMTUD
      = mitigation solution AFAIK.

    -  Servers that return different = content for IPv6 vs IPv4 (eg, "404 not found" due to an unconfigured = server on the IPv6 side).
       "Don't do this" as = advice to server operators is likely the best way to fix it as hacking = around it on the client side is unhelpful.

* It may make sense to = recommend some form of back-off in the retry timing.  Rather than a = fixed value (eg, 250ms), adding
 = an increasing time value with some jitter into each retry may be safer = in the cases of overloaded servers
  or a network connection that is borderline near the = retry time.  I've seen congestive failure and lack-of-progress
  scenarios from having a fixed = retry timer.  For example, with servers that do FIFO queueing of = connections to accept,
  if the = queue becomes longer than the retry period then all clients fail to make = forward progress and you reach
 = congestive collapse.  The same can happen with links that become = high-latency, however.

* It may be worth adding some guidance = into reporting and visibility.  I'm not sure how? 
  One of the big complaints = against Happy Eyeballs is that it masks brokenness (latency spikes
  but things keep working so no = one complains enough to fix the root cause).
  Having a recommendation that stacks or applications at = least keep counters and telemetry
  on failures may at least make it more viable to = debug?

* It would be = good to provide guidance or a reminder around protocols that send data = along with a SYN
  or an initial flight  (eg, = TCP Fast Open / TFO and TLS 1.3 0RTT).  In particular, you = likely
  want to send this ONLY on one connection = attempt (eg, the IPv6 attempt?) as otherwise
  the operation may be executed twice by the = server.  This may cause undue server load
  and for apps/clients incorrectly using TFO or 0RTT for = non-idempotent operations
  it = could cause duplicate actions.

Thanks!  Erik






On = Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 11:53 PM, David Schinazi <dschinazi@apple.com> wrote:
Hi everyone,

Thanks a lot for the comments and = feedback.
We've incorporated them into -01, please = let us know if they were properly addressed.
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-01.txt

Regards,
David = Schinazi


On Mar = 10, 2017, at 14:54, Philip Homburg <pch-v6ops-6@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:

In your letter dated Fri, 10 Mar 2017 = 09:29:55 -0800 you wrote:
We can certainly soften some of the language to make it clear = that if
your system has no such option, you are not = necessarily out of spec, but if su
ch an option is = available, we believe that it SHOULD indeed be used. This fits
with the Happy Eyeballs paradigm: if I am waiting for one of = the DNS response
s to come back, I could have already made = my connection in that time, getting
the user the resource = loaded more quickly.

If the = DNS requirements can be toned down to the point that an application
can use getaddrinfo if that fits the application, then that's = fine
with me.


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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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= --Boundary_(ID_F8KG9fRFqYtBb8MnlxB0dw)-- From nobody Tue Mar 14 20:46:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3A271294EF for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 20:46:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nw9hcQBpFTYY for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 20:46:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [149.20.64.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC17B1294A8 for ; Tue, 14 Mar 2017 20:46:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2544A349666; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 03:46:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 15E26160007; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 03:46:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 054B8160036; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 03:46:27 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 1uJ4yS7csCtC; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 03:46:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id CB27D160007; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 03:46:25 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0EAB566D1CED; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 14:46:22 +1100 (EST) To: David Schinazi Cc: IPv6 Operations From: Mark Andrews References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Tue, 14 Mar 2017 19:54:00 -0700." Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 14:46:21 +1100 Message-Id: <20170315034622.0EAB566D1CED@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 03:46:34 -0000 In message , David Schinazi wri tes: > Mark, > > We have operational data proving that asynchronous DNS is not "for no > good reason". DNS queries fail rarely (it still happens) but they often > can take several hundreds of milliseconds longer. > The user shouldn't have to wait that delay for their webpage to load, > and our data shows that this timer fires regularly in the field > indicating that users would have been needlessly waiting for their content. > Why should we artificially delay the user's experience for an A response > if we already have the AAAA? So you now want Happy Eyeballs, which was designed to remove delays of 10's - 100's of seconds before failover, to now override address selection policies because the DNS's cache has one address type present and not the other. That is what the 50ms timer achieves. It takes ~200ms to get a answer from the other side of the world with terrestial links. Happy Eyeballs was never about having the absolute fastest time to connect. It was about establishing a connection in a reasonable amount of time in presence of network / server failures without having ridiciously long failover delays. Mark > Erik, > > Thanks for the suggestions! > - we'll add a section about problems that Happy Eyeballs do not solve > - regarding the increased retry timer, this is somewhat covered by > historical RTT information. > I don't think failures to reach the first address should harm the > next ones, as that defeats redundancy > - I do agree that the main downside of Happy Eyeballs is hiding failures, > but enforcing clients have a reporting system seems uncommon for IETF > protocols, do you know of any? > - Regarding TFO / TLS 1.3 0RTT I think the requirement is that you MUST > NOT use those if your data isn't idempotent, as packets could be > duplicated in the network. This is orthogonal to Happy Eyeballs. > > Thanks, > David Schinazi > > > > On Mar 13, 2017, at 19:02, Erik Nygren wrote: > > > > It's great to see an updated version of this guidance! > > > > > There is zero reason for making async DNS a MUST. > > > > The bare minimum is that revolvers must do A and AAAA lookups in parallel. > > The current behavior of some stacks is to do the AAAA and A lookups in seri > es. > > This means effectively means that adding IPv6 connectivity to a client adds > an > > extra RTT in for almost all DNS lookups. > > For example, see section 5 in: https://www.akamai.com/us/en/multimedia/doc > uments/technical-publication/a-case-for-faster-mobile-web-in-cellular-ipv6-ne > tworks.pdf cation/a-case-for-faster-mobile-web-in-cellular-ipv6-networks.pdf> > > For clients such as mobile device visiting sites with lots of hostnames, > > this can have a very substantial performance hit. This also shows up > > in some RUM-based measurement reports making IPv6 look slower > > (due to clients with IPv6 spending more time doing DNS lookups before > > doing page loads). > > > > Doing the lookups in parallel but not waiting for both responses is better > than serial, > > but still has a perf hit (whatever the recovery time plus an RTT) when > > the A or AAAA lookup packet is lost. > > > > Some additional comments/thoughts after reading through the -01 version: > > > > * It would be good to add a section on failure cases NOT detected/mitigated > by this form of Happy Eyeballs. > > Even if not covering mitigations, it would still be good to discuss them > for awareness. > > > > - In particular, PMTUD seems to be the most common. ie, if there is a > PMTUD issue between > > the client and server, then the connect will often succeed but the co > nnection will fail to function. > > I think most large-scale IPv6 server operators (plus many of small on > es) have broken this at least once. > > One client-side mitigation for TCP might be for the client to offer p > rogressively smaller MSS > > as it retries different IPs within a protocol family. > > (I don't know if anyone does or has tried this? There is the server- > side pmtud probing feature.) > > For UDP protocols, using full-frame packets for the SYN and the SYN-A > CK (as QUIC does) seems > > like one approach to at least detect breakage early, although QUIC do > esn't key have a PMTUD > > mitigation solution AFAIK. > > > > - Servers that return different content for IPv6 vs IPv4 (eg, "404 not > found" due to an unconfigured server on the IPv6 side). > > "Don't do this" as advice to server operators is likely the best way > to fix it as hacking around it on the client side is unhelpful. > > > > * It may make sense to recommend some form of back-off in the retry timing. > Rather than a fixed value (eg, 250ms), adding > > an increasing time value with some jitter into each retry may be safer in > the cases of overloaded servers > > or a network connection that is borderline near the retry time. I've see > n congestive failure and lack-of-progress > > scenarios from having a fixed retry timer. For example, with servers tha > t do FIFO queueing of connections to accept, > > if the queue becomes longer than the retry period then all clients fail t > o make forward progress and you reach > > congestive collapse. The same can happen with links that become high-lat > ency, however. > > > > * It may be worth adding some guidance into reporting and visibility. I'm > not sure how? > > One of the big complaints against Happy Eyeballs is that it masks brokenn > ess (latency spikes > > but things keep working so no one complains enough to fix the root cause) > . > > Having a recommendation that stacks or applications at least keep counter > s and telemetry > > on failures may at least make it more viable to debug? > > > > * It would be good to provide guidance or a reminder around protocols that > send data along with a SYN > > or an initial flight (eg, TCP Fast Open / TFO and TLS 1.3 0RTT). In par > ticular, you likely > > want to send this ONLY on one connection attempt (eg, the IPv6 attempt?) > as otherwise > > the operation may be executed twice by the server. This may cause undue > server load > > and for apps/clients incorrectly using TFO or 0RTT for non-idempotent ope > rations > > it could cause duplicate actions. > > > > Thanks! Erik > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 11:53 PM, David Schinazi to:dschinazi@apple.com>> wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > Thanks a lot for the comments and feedback. > > We've incorporated them into -01, please let us know if they were properly > addressed. > > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-updat > e-01.txt ls-update-01.txt> > > > > Regards, > > David Schinazi > > > > > >> On Mar 10, 2017, at 14:54, Philip Homburg lto:pch-v6ops-6@u-1.phicoh.com>> wrote: > >> > >> In your letter dated Fri, 10 Mar 2017 09:29:55 -0800 you wrote: > >>> We can certainly soften some of the language to make it clear that if > >>> your system has no such option, you are not necessarily out of spec, but > if su > >>> ch an option is available, we believe that it SHOULD indeed be used. This > fits > >>> with the Happy Eyeballs paradigm: if I am waiting for one of the DNS resp > onse > >>> s to come back, I could have already made my connection in that time, get > ting > >>> the user the resource loaded more quickly. > >> > >> If the DNS requirements can be toned down to the point that an application > >> can use getaddrinfo if that fits the application, then that's fine > >> with me. > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> v6ops mailing list > >> v6ops@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops listinfo/v6ops> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops istinfo/v6ops> > > > > > > > --Boundary_(ID_F8KG9fRFqYtBb8MnlxB0dw) > Content-type: text/html; CHARSET=US-ASCII > Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > > charset=3Dus-ascii"> -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space;" = > class=3D"">
Mark,

class=3D"">
We have operational data proving that = > asynchronous DNS is not "for no good reason".
DNS = > queries fail rarely (it still happens) but they often can take several = > hundreds of milliseconds longer.
The user shouldn't = > have to wait that delay for their webpage to load, and our data shows = > that this timer
fires regularly in the field = > indicating that users would have been needlessly waiting for their = > content.
Why should we artificially delay the = > user's experience for an A response if we already have the = > AAAA?

class=3D"">Erik,

class=3D"">Thanks for the suggestions!
- we'll add = > a section about problems that Happy Eyeballs do not solve
class=3D"">- regarding the increased retry timer, this is somewhat = > covered by historical RTT information.
  = >   I don't think failures to reach the first address should harm the = > next ones, as that defeats redundancy
- I do agree = > that the main downside of Happy Eyeballs is hiding failures,
class=3D"">    but enforcing clients have a reporting system = > seems uncommon for IETF protocols, do you know of any?
class=3D"">- Regarding TFO / TLS 1.3 0RTT I think the requirement is = > that you MUST NOT use those
    if your = > data isn't idempotent, as packets could be duplicated in the network. = > This is orthogonal to Happy Eyeballs.

class=3D"">
Thanks,
David = > Schinazi


class=3D"">
On = > Mar 13, 2017, at 19:02, Erik Nygren < href=3D"mailto:erik+ietf@nygren.org" = > class=3D"">erik+ietf@nygren.org> wrote:

class=3D"Apple-interchange-newline">
class=3D"">
class=3D"">
class=3D"">
It's great to see an updated version of this = > guidance!

> There is zero reason for = > making async DNS a MUST. 

class=3D"">The bare minimum is that revolvers must do A and AAAA lookups = > in parallel.
The current behavior of = > some stacks is to do the AAAA and A lookups in series.
This= > means effectively means that adding IPv6 connectivity to a client adds = > an
extra RTT in for almost all DNS = > lookups. 
For example, see = > section 5 in:  href=3D"https://www.akamai.com/us/en/multimedia/documents/technical-public= > ation/a-case-for-faster-mobile-web-in-cellular-ipv6-networks.pdf" = > class=3D"">https://www.akamai.com/us/en/multimedia/documents/technical-pub= > lication/a-case-for-faster-mobile-web-in-cellular-ipv6-networks.pdf class=3D"">
For clients such as mobile device = > visiting sites with lots of hostnames,
class=3D"">this can have a very substantial performance hit.  This = > also shows up
in some RUM-based = > measurement reports making IPv6 look slower
class=3D"">(due to clients with IPv6 spending more time doing DNS = > lookups before
doing page loads). = >

Doing the lookups in parallel but not = > waiting for both responses is better than serial,
class=3D"">but still has a perf hit (whatever the recovery time plus an = > RTT) when
the A or AAAA lookup packet is lost.
class=3D"">

Some additional = > comments/thoughts after reading through the -01 version:
class=3D"">
* It would be good to add a section on failure cases = > NOT detected/mitigated by this form of Happy Eyeballs.
class=3D"">
   Even if not covering = > mitigations, it would still be good to discuss them for awareness.
class=3D"">

    - In particular, = > PMTUD seems to be the most common.  ie, if there is a PMTUD issue = > between
      the client and server, = > then the connect will often succeed but the connection will fail to = > function.
class=3D"">      I think most large-scale IPv6 = > server operators (plus many of small ones) have broken this at least = > once.
      One client-side = > mitigation for TCP might be for the client to offer progressively = > smaller MSS
      as it retries = > different IPs within a protocol family.
class=3D"">
      (I don't know if anyone = > does or has tried this?  There is the server-side pmtud probing = > feature.)
      For UDP = > protocols, using full-frame packets for the SYN and the SYN-ACK (as QUIC = > does) seems
      like one = > approach to at least detect breakage early, although QUIC doesn't key = > have a PMTUD
      = > mitigation solution AFAIK.
class=3D"">
class=3D"">

class=3D"">    -  Servers that return different = > content for IPv6 vs IPv4 (eg, "404 not found" due to an unconfigured = > server on the IPv6 side).
class=3D"">       "Don't do this" as = > advice to server operators is likely the best way to fix it as hacking = > around it on the client side is unhelpful.
class=3D"">
* It may make sense to = > recommend some form of back-off in the retry timing.  Rather than a = > fixed value (eg, 250ms), adding
 = > an increasing time value with some jitter into each retry may be safer = > in the cases of overloaded servers
class=3D"">  or a network connection that is borderline near the = > retry time.  I've seen congestive failure and lack-of-progress
class=3D"">
  scenarios from having a fixed = > retry timer.  For example, with servers that do FIFO queueing of = > connections to accept,
  if the = > queue becomes longer than the retry period then all clients fail to make = > forward progress and you reach
 = > congestive collapse.  The same can happen with links that become = > high-latency, however.

class=3D"">
* It may be worth adding some guidance = > into reporting and visibility.  I'm not sure how? 
class=3D"">
  One of the big complaints = > against Happy Eyeballs is that it masks brokenness (latency spikes
class=3D"">
  but things keep working so no = > one complains enough to fix the root cause).
class=3D"">  Having a recommendation that stacks or applications at = > least keep counters and telemetry
class=3D"">  on failures may at least make it more viable to = > debug?

* It would be = > good to provide guidance or a reminder around protocols that send data = > along with a SYN
  or an initial flight  (eg, = > TCP Fast Open / TFO and TLS 1.3 0RTT).  In particular, you = > likely
  want to send this ONLY on one connection = > attempt (eg, the IPv6 attempt?) as otherwise
class=3D"">  the operation may be executed twice by the = > server.  This may cause undue server load
class=3D"">  and for apps/clients incorrectly using TFO or 0RTT for = > non-idempotent operations
  it = > could cause duplicate actions.

class=3D"">
Thanks!  Erik

class=3D"">



class=3D"">
class=3D"">
v class=3D"gmail_extra">
On = > Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 11:53 PM, David Schinazi class=3D"">< class=3D"">dschinazi@apple.com> wrote:
class=3D"">
.8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
style=3D"word-wrap:break-word" class=3D"">Hi everyone,

class=3D"">
Thanks a lot for the comments and = > feedback.
We've incorporated them into -01, please = > let us know if they were properly addressed.
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeba= > lls-update-01.txt" target=3D"_blank" = > class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/internet- class=3D"">drafts/draft-pauly-v6ops- class=3D"">happy-eyeballs-update-01.txt

class=3D"">
Regards,
David = > Schinazi

class=3D"">

class=3D"">
On Mar = > 10, 2017, at 14:54, Philip Homburg < href=3D"mailto:pch-v6ops-6@u-1.phicoh.com" target=3D"_blank" = > class=3D"">pch-v6ops-6@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:

class=3D"m_5032583941560406556Apple-interchange-newline">
class=3D"">
In your letter dated Fri, 10 Mar 2017 = > 09:29:55 -0800 you wrote:
class=3D"">We can certainly soften some of the language to make it clear = > that if
your system has no such option, you are not = > necessarily out of spec, but if su
ch an option is = > available, we believe that it SHOULD indeed be used. This fits
class=3D"">with the Happy Eyeballs paradigm: if I am waiting for one of = > the DNS response
s to come back, I could have already made = > my connection in that time, getting
the user the resource = > loaded more quickly.

If the = > DNS requirements can be toned down to the point that an application
class=3D"">can use getaddrinfo if that fits the application, then that's = > fine
with me.


class=3D"">______________________________ class=3D"">_________________
v6ops mailing list
class=3D""> class=3D"">v6ops@ietf.org
href=3D"https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops" target=3D"_blank" = > class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/ class=3D"">listinfo/v6ops
class=3D"">

class=3D"">

class=3D"">______________________________ class=3D"">_________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
class=3D""> > target=3D"_blank" class=3D"">https://www.ietf.org/mailman/ class=3D"">listinfo/v6ops
>

>
= > > --Boundary_(ID_F8KG9fRFqYtBb8MnlxB0dw)-- > > > --===============7303905125349802389== > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Disposition: inline > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > --===============7303905125349802389==-- > -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Wed Mar 15 11:17:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7319E131778 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:17:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DH7xQDUIgBGA for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 29B11131774 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:17:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.189] (cpe-172-250-240-132.socal.res.rr.com [172.250.240.132]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2FIGrmW014809 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:16:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Mark Smith , Fred Baker References: <1386DA1D-79F2-41D1-8F36-BD5C5AD1A161@gmail.com> Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" From: Joe Touch Message-ID: Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 11:16:54 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 18:17:40 -0000 On 3/14/2017 5:18 AM, Mark Smith wrote: > ... > I assume that people drop fragments because there are no port numbers > to look at/filter on in them. Some people also filter fragments to avoid reassembly attacks. > Shifting fragmentation into the UDP > layer would overcome that issue. There may be some light at the end of > the tunnel. > > "Transport Options for UDP" > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-touch-tsvwg-udp-options-05 No argument here ;-) Though the "light at the end of the tunnel" is covered here ;-p https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-intarea-tunnels Joe From nobody Wed Mar 15 17:00:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC96212E8FA for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:00:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.197, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l4AJIt815fpR for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:00:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x236.google.com (mail-qt0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4E14E12EA7A for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:00:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x236.google.com with SMTP id x35so25708734qtc.2 for ; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:00:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=uwULFgW+lWe2qLXUOK/ZpUWe8Qhe3w2Isyz1ypmXQYA=; b=kZbHnabF5qbUn1eaCBSoLP99/BwJNRhnF6z/EI8/QG9WY9uODTjAZjpq58+K7Q3WUM fTLk4/jq9BHvj08xZLaiYnzMBCji4NY4gjtJ5YtyFGS9bKLYq8hztQ+ub1CURBbf+1PR e7pIddY0aKPC8dzMCiYFTKk/VZARhzx4G5lutLjZc5+gewnc6hL0r1RuqdNxqTQUpX6o hjy7KpPNXZb0GBT5nf69b1f22KE4VKy0m9a8iOdS3oJF5GmrnZMvpLNgz6jV8SLHJ0WO v/R0OS6Z3SnWxlQIsfPsgTZ4LHTZRHsisv38ck+H+k6ALiPVBfj7FG7tH9t764UGVDBS gU7Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uwULFgW+lWe2qLXUOK/ZpUWe8Qhe3w2Isyz1ypmXQYA=; b=GNBzofiMGexJ4vQ4/kpg95KbVuKiGNVCQ/MSdTJwDoLrLjyk0Mk9dQ/8Ef9KvCfMd0 bjzsZ0eqNwSUyYpwh0O+UWhfIcZiM1Vl1Xte1BL7UPK9USAuAOeph/l9KDdSGYCkiupP CGGAIxETuZgmPsYAxRwZCpW+XbIh3C3tr8U+nQJgXufSGLB0R09BhkJyBume62Xb639L iWMqY+Ch27PCnJSr3bPHMGz0ZMJ8EYjN7POkUvt3QDp4SHNiRjSdB9lR9+95uizNm06a ZLcKnUl9+zEq1UueWyyHukhg9R3karfq1zpQkmjn3Y0gASExXKYfywm07C5ed5MC9Vby tySw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0rJy7I921DGDoya3YgcCeuhmsRVi7Ily5GbvN3dGmkwE14qeyUa5h6HmJSXB4h2a4/uNYa+mJI12W6pA== X-Received: by 10.237.32.240 with SMTP id 103mr5676789qtb.93.1489622448395; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:00:48 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: jinmei.tatuya@gmail.com Received: by 10.237.61.204 with HTTP; Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:00:47 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Date: Wed, 15 Mar 2017 17:00:47 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: MH8p2UGP3I5j7f2J6jBv8mQAWuc Message-ID: To: David Schinazi Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 00:00:52 -0000 On Sun, Mar 12, 2017 at 8:53 PM, David Schinazi wrote: > We've incorporated them into -01, please let us know if they were properly > addressed. > https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-01.txt I have one quick (and minor) question about the 01 version: in Section 6 it states If, during the course of connection establishment, the DNS answers change either by adding resolved addresses, or removing previously resolved addresses (for example, due to expiry of the TTL on that DNS record), the client should react based on its current progress. Specifically what kind of scenario does this intend to imply? For example, consider the following scenario: 1. start a AAAA query for a destination name 2. start an A query for the same name almost at the same time 3. get a response to the AAAA query (set of IPv6 addresses) 4. start establishing a connection for one of the IPv6 addresses 5. get a response to the A query (set of IPv4 addresses) At step 5, DNS resolution is fully completed. But the response to the A query is quite unlikely to affect "previously resolved (IPv6 in this case) addresses". At least it shouldn't add any IPv6 address. The only possible corner case I can think of is to get an NXDOMAIN to the A query, which could effectively mean "removing" the IPv6 addresses. Does the above text specifically mean this case? Are there other cases under consideration? Or is this about the case where multiple DNS servers are used? -- JINMEI, Tatuya From nobody Thu Mar 16 01:21:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C239126D74 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 01:21:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E4DnXW9V4pYe for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 01:21:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B061B1250B8 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 01:21:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2G8L2ew043246 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:21:02 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 6FC21202AE8 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:21:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64F812026DB for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:21:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from [132.166.84.238] ([132.166.84.238]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2G8L1SY023176 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:21:02 +0100 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:20:53 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:21:06 -0000 Hi, Touchscreen and other WiFi, DSL and Cable Boxes of today rarely have only one network interface. As such, whereas it can make sense to dedicate an entire prefix to one interface of such device (instead of sharing a prefix on the direct link), the following also apply: - should dedicate multiple such prefixes per device (not just one). - in case only one such prefix is dedicated, it should not be /64 but a different prefix length. This draft does neither. It is called "unique prefix per Host"; and it allocates a /64: "subscriber gets its own unique /64 IPv6 prefix". If the text needs some example prefix len, please use /63 instead, not /64. Maybe instead of "unique prefix per Host", would be better to say "prefixes dedicated to a Host". If the text needs to take a stance with respect to DHCPv6 PD, then please make it a MUST. The following is too ambiguos and delays PD deployment: "if/when DHCPv6 prefix delegation support is desired". Because it is not an if, and it is now. This is really not good. If this is not taken into account, I am afraid it will add to the pile of RFCs mandating to allocate a /64 to an end host, use 64share, and thus make it impossible to extend the network at the edge. (once it agrees it should rather talk DHCPv6-PD. Then we can discuss again.) (this draft could benefit from experience of earlier RFCs that also dedicate a single prefix to an - albeit mobile - node - Proxy Mobile IP RFC5213, Prefix Delegation for PMIP RFC 7248.) Alex Le 14/03/2017 15:40, Ron Bonica a crit : > Folks, > > This message initiates a Working Group Last Call (WGLC) for > draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02. Since IETF is > approaching, we will let the last call run a little longer than > usual. > > Please submit comments to the list by April 11, 2017. > > Lee, Fred and Ron > > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Thu Mar 16 01:26:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E85A8126D74 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 01:26:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f3qEzZULf8Ee for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 01:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AB041270A3 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 01:26:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 198F86065A for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:26:40 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9D3B604A9; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:26:39 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id D09618A6B; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:26:39 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:26:39 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> References: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:26:44 -0000 Hi, On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 09:20:53AM +0100, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > Touchscreen and other WiFi, DSL and Cable Boxes of today rarely have > only one network interface. [..] > This draft does neither. It is called "unique prefix per Host"; All the devices you've listed are not *Hosts*. This is not about "delegating a prefix to a device that works as an intermediate router" but about *Hosts*. If a host acts as a router, it's not the target audience of this draft. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Thu Mar 16 01:56:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 54BBA127076 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 01:56:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vo_x3XuHRauI for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 01:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9208A126DD9 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 01:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v2G8ui9F025638; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:56:44 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 2631820566D; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:56:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 186A4205A8F; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:56:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from [132.166.84.238] ([132.166.84.238]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2G8uhq9031766; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:56:43 +0100 To: Gert Doering References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <88d17228-52b0-848f-b8e6-4fba346ee29b@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:56:35 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:56:48 -0000 Le 16/03/2017 09:26, Gert Doering a crit : > Hi, > > On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 09:20:53AM +0100, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >> Touchscreen and other WiFi, DSL and Cable Boxes of today rarely >> have only one network interface. > [..] >> This draft does neither. It is called "unique prefix per Host"; > > All the devices you've listed are not *Hosts*. Then let me claim that Hosts as we know them (computer with only one interface) is a too theoretical term - we rarely find it in practice. In this class of Hosts (computer with only one IP interface) one can find a few Tablets or Game consoles. Even then, they have USB potentially with USBnet and thus IP on it. Is this the audience of this draft (Tablet/Game console)? I doubt so. What happens in practice is that often drafts like this get widely deployed and only then we realize they dont support more than, well, Hosts with precisely 1 interface. We should stay away from creating new such deployments. There is a BCP requiring more than one address per device. > This is not about "delegating a prefix to a device that works as an > intermediate router" but about *Hosts*. If a host acts as a router, > it's not the target audience of this draft. I am afraid most Hosts out there act as Routers, and most Routers as Hosts at times. In both cases /64-unique-per-Computer makes no sense at all and should stop. But yes, I agree that the concept of distinct prefixes per Computer (rather than a shared prefix among multiple Computers) should be pursued. Just make it multiple. Alex > > Gert Doering -- NetMaster > From nobody Thu Mar 16 02:18:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CFEE2127097 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:18:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ceMmEFDRWM4U for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:18:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0530F12704B for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2017 09:18:35 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9FA0D788D; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:18:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=UvUWWcgY8S/Rtf5y1qYZJhYjp6Q=; b= NwxEsl1/Odub+Ds9TWu8/hjVjT2lspzMjbj4jkr11qzRz4Q2SGxNii3eyC/gQf8e e4/hPeWvz8sUJNsoHjMumqU/NomoYe7PZFIBpk+Jkueu+Ow4pbAzrWpXXn4C94Ym cQUKj6ggVWRpHtwrLzxU35CN013nuHC7rT3f+DIdebc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=azkmq9F/rC0mD6Hel93H+PA ScfhToDuujG9zTHaY2SFAy/G3mfHU4H/PrGY5bA9n8fAMYEdt+9lBoH9hhePfXMh mIxRIizp5SrpxZSEWoGJbDcOWsIIT+SHIJWTsggvToW8rr5L3RJD+dIxZi9JNK85 JBie5qlcirfJ4pbk+wzc= Received: from h.hanazo.no (219.103.92.62.static.cust.telenor.com [62.92.103.219]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5497DD788A; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id A965B9F0F044; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:18:31 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8E65BDF9-6FD2-43C3-AD50-0033F89089F1"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:18:30 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> Cc: Joe Touch , v6ops@ietf.org To: Mark Andrews References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:18:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8E65BDF9-6FD2-43C3-AD50-0033F89089F1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mark, Thanks for a great summary! > Of that list of cause for non responses, firewall cause about half > of them: >=20 > * EDNS being blocked/dropped (or only the first EDNS message is = responded to, > older Microsoft servers have this = behaviour) > * EDNS OPTIONS being filtered > * fragmentation filtering >=20 > In the future there wall also be operational issues with >=20 > * EDNS version !=3D 0 being filtered > * EDNS flag XXXX being filtered >=20 > At the moment the last two only impact testing traffic and protocol > developers needing to decide how to how to fix / extend the DNS. > They have already stopped DNSOP bumping the EDNS version number > when cleaning up EDNS unknown option handling in RFC 6891. EDNS(0) > undefined =3D> EDNS(1) ignore. This is how it should have been done > in a sane world without stupid firewall vendors that just block > anything that is not what is currently being used irrespective of > whether there was well defined behaviour for how to handle EDNS(1) > queries when you only support EDNS(0) or not. To talk about IPv4 for a second (I know, I know). It isn't only firewall = vendors. In all the IPv4 sharing mechanisms IPv4 fragments is a royal pain to = deal with, and very costly. And we can agree that those mechanisms are evil, but we are were we are. I have implemented virtual reassembly in VPP for MAP-E. If fragments = arrive in order and are relatively closely spaced in time and packet = flow, it's fine, but as soon as they are out of order, which require = buffering it very quickly appears like a DOS attack. Meaning fragments will regardless have a much higher drop probability. = In addition comes the issues of sharing the IP identifier space among = multiple users. I tried to get some data on IPv4 fragmentation but that was hard to = find. In the packet traces I found most of the fragmented traffic was = either DOS attacks, stuff that didn't reassemble, or DNS attacks. If = anyone has better data let me know. I'm not quite convinced that a protocol without a 3 way handshake is a = good idea anymore. Cheers, Ole --Apple-Mail=_8E65BDF9-6FD2-43C3-AD50-0033F89089F1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYylhnAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92+aEP/0NqtD2cEyfIpz5AcAPPjS/Z XfpWkh0rcz09iLEWzsOfwTSsiDBR+HonxcVu333D3CikG3+pRQQVJR5K7gg+2Lv9 2hMpyA+4CeyiwQbxs7wNA5ooF56/b38ftmad2U/NmHym53G9X0Y0B6PRmaU0/VpZ K+bZuEIkrtoNAVauHBiNmDFF3Orz0AnCe1IkklWA2+QhwGaJZdTJHBdt4Hw6D3W0 GrpgL2lRTAGiJkBzQi8BqdEo5WB8t8xcAs/DwropDfiT3nNwwJ8Afbos+cBuNbc6 qTbeUK64WHp5SMYL14UqHndHmcuEJQfOoam61SHWRHEnJSzBHNEWnvc1ZyWnODnX m0hm6F2xWh81qBTDt2TN2kRMf1ko8X0erqcPj4VNEMkuQcNQtBB/Y49SSprKvN1G 80kkgOQvSLvwCQj7v67AqAB9ct925szJmxsLmHqY7jPoB8nV7u6nrM+XbfIR4f45 IyUg99t/JVbB9hs5MMI1YNX631JSB1sJfN8IYmO+WOi0JoDEtpJ/J+G7Vgi1z0D2 eZlSQbJjqE/+8NEzwP1GaG3Fmju3uZ0SA37EgA13ZvsRCUBOXlE4oJplyUZ3kdAZ aWGvZjd8eHGtxb0aVyF24Dsq0vdFvWCXr0kLCLCldtEaZMDVeTLKHKOBrPZrhBX8 lTUkUMrwXZz+4NkVDeqT =/e+e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_8E65BDF9-6FD2-43C3-AD50-0033F89089F1-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 02:20:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A2B612704B for ; 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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:20:40 +0000 From: Tim Chown To: Gert Doering CC: Alexandre Petrescu , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device Thread-Index: AQHSni5PH8o+7PFDgUWe9BwSIGNYVaGXIbSAgAAPEwA= Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:20:40 +0000 Message-ID: <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [194.82.140.195] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM3PR07MB1140; 7:gsvBUfVSZEpiooBabpEMTIBfZ3pyhR/hRy75dknXauf3duYtJ6wkM+rrQgwa6A5uQzaDE5EqRtqTm5rxoOXmXfXKfIHXBUMNZpTmJ4pRvT1XH7F0R2GBQoZOwBRfrXDKocpFuTS5dxxCxdalQ34YO5QF1QOcE8TJ4pXSyW+ndw9qUz9XZO8WEYNjUJMYS8PXExy1dlZh6T83pldQ51Xc8QXY1c1ngMI8S+C4D9OlfZOrAJIGHXFSpkWKjif2hacmnnPSpkaaIFS1MBaNAixr8PQnYFGIIgMc7sfzzLkzit9xSaoZwGPPDv+6+RLPYTEqzTvLQqCIDEABB0GOjKctPQ==; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AM3PR07MB1140; H:AM3PR07MB1140.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:ovrnspm; PTR:InfoNoRecords; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-ID: <05D73BC2036F7542AA2D12CD2694B246@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jisc.ac.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 16 Mar 2017 09:20:40.8440 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 48f9394d-8a14-4d27-82a6-f35f12361205 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM3PR07MB1140 X-MC-Unique: N5Pfm9APMOOJc8i7fVBA2A-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:20:52 -0000 > On 16 Mar 2017, at 08:26, Gert Doering wrote: >=20 > Hi, >=20 > On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 09:20:53AM +0100, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >> Touchscreen and other WiFi, DSL and Cable Boxes of today rarely have >> only one network interface. > [..] >> This draft does neither. It is called "unique prefix per Host";=20 >=20 > All the devices you've listed are not *Hosts*. >=20 > This is not about "delegating a prefix to a device that works as an > intermediate router" but about *Hosts*. If a host acts as a router, > it's not the target audience of this draft. But the host might want to act as a router temporarily? Tim From nobody Thu Mar 16 02:24:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 359B0126DEE for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:24:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id MAxkpNnyVfgW for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B470E126C23 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2017 09:24:19 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 52E83D788B; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:24:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=R/VkEey2TfL3NPt3yKFnOkc+1Bs=; b= N6dRbsdVRNKzIePZ4uW/qgUM/GRqAXsrcxzOkyqVHYZy6iRYl7Q77sYdWcmdcRNj 3svFLXgI9SyAtzo+rdOV31IaKqI95bHw7oMOoW7hCjmpdCmEK8Mv/6xDjH0Mlh3N MpXKbB2/kNWZSx/Txfy7s4otAYDpMiE4Xn0cCC7guuQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=Wz88ubNElhM0lKqbuOeq3/W gM//apx+uUnV5crPueJbzsi3cANhRmiYlI/dqFa5E42D7tl5KWDAVBv+l0GUHXYC afkEtjp9CwPT6Gjdmu/Pp21HpBG/YO7RXG/lI9oQ6cigBwkZE8dvgcq6ivf78kHQ Z59elfMkX40nPhdJrxt0= Received: from h.hanazo.no (219.103.92.62.static.cust.telenor.com [62.92.103.219]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1F117D788A; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E47E9F10B7A; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:24:17 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BD70D24A-178B-45FD-ADB9-9881367F79AB"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:24:17 +0100 In-Reply-To: <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> Cc: Gert Doering , "v6ops@ietf.org" To: Tim Chown References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:24:21 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_BD70D24A-178B-45FD-ADB9-9881367F79AB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>> Touchscreen and other WiFi, DSL and Cable Boxes of today rarely have >>> only one network interface. >> [..] >>> This draft does neither. It is called "unique prefix per Host"; >>=20 >> All the devices you've listed are not *Hosts*. >>=20 >> This is not about "delegating a prefix to a device that works as an >> intermediate router" but about *Hosts*. If a host acts as a router, >> it's not the target audience of this draft. >=20 > But the host might want to act as a router temporarily? A little flippant perhaps, but can you give an example of a node that = isn't a router anymore? I think the statement "All hosts are routers" is almost true. Certainly my phones, laptops, lightbulbs are all routers. Ole --Apple-Mail=_BD70D24A-178B-45FD-ADB9-9881367F79AB Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYylnBAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92ploQAILtu/x6lKEucuYP4R0nP/ju h2d8pzPQ/+I47/Aedv+EITaWGBSV631Qtxz/NX9mWcwqFoi3HzVHOS5jG62xVnqj X6g4mXtyBd6OZQiBPyJlDek2Oh+CS/4ZMkszgzJMpJXpY9aUQmdSeV/T1QjUYCWZ G1wJI5yCugc5mv+ie95Bbv6PUY3Yb/bpeGMfMoY4JEQcNuAPbsinkIR3dvKEeEJa HDx6jux9ytBfr8QBXNTHY/8oK/CQluwyH0+35PI2KrmE31oCrHjf3LnhJgsJGj5t 5Cd8bQOEL7Wuq51BcNc1EZWpt2dIgH2SQ7fdM9Y3CGjXmdfUq+a8vl/fNOT/Mb9o az+h9hYEV1WWOYLO541FdhF0R+0kgSJkFag8d+SuoKDs3WIz25dbhYjgxHBQKaSh qj6nzn9HJqvpgo97YPIi7ihPzu7f2Zz6beFmGVnMDPq/D2o5fn95M7K5PtaVba6T Gp422y/3++dCHUUXPWgIx1S5EYuIpsxkGIe8WWwSh2wmzpTQn8SeQYKtkyAZl/qc YfkJ7vuHzRHUpebPNrIQTX4kdgLgYydvGEijh0Rp65kgib7UnY8Y8/KyhsPekqqn jPLbA0uPIlKU6KZipF+N0+aSJuTIUThlkGTjVenUWmxLCKRNsgpInvQgxhcNjEQf cL1U5IzXp44KCoWGYG04 =zto2 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_BD70D24A-178B-45FD-ADB9-9881367F79AB-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 02:25:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8BE59126C23 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:25:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F8D_j68B0piZ for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nagasaki.bogus.com (nagasaki.bogus.com [IPv6:2001:418:1::81]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46485126DED for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mb.local (c-73-202-177-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [73.202.177.209]) (authenticated bits=0) by nagasaki.bogus.com (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v2G9PPgL003742 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:25:25 GMT (envelope-from joelja@bogus.com) X-Authentication-Warning: nagasaki.bogus.com: Host c-73-202-177-209.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [73.202.177.209] claimed to be mb.local To: Tim Chown , Gert Doering References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" From: joel jaeggli Message-ID: <603ce2a2-8f72-b228-9bb3-887cc63862c6@bogus.com> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:25:17 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.12; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="gIF1dW5Q0bNSSWGOC1nUlo6et69Gnotjg" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:25:27 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --gIF1dW5Q0bNSSWGOC1nUlo6et69Gnotjg Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="qAmqJ3FtXKIBAbwotfHjoBX0RHhE6NSgk"; protected-headers="v1" From: joel jaeggli To: Tim Chown , Gert Doering Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: <603ce2a2-8f72-b228-9bb3-887cc63862c6@bogus.com> Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> --qAmqJ3FtXKIBAbwotfHjoBX0RHhE6NSgk Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 3/16/17 2:20 AM, Tim Chown wrote: >> On 16 Mar 2017, at 08:26, Gert Doering wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 09:20:53AM +0100, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >>> Touchscreen and other WiFi, DSL and Cable Boxes of today rarely have >>> only one network interface. >> [..] >>> This draft does neither. It is called "unique prefix per Host";=20 >> >> All the devices you've listed are not *Hosts*. >> >> This is not about "delegating a prefix to a device that works as an >> intermediate router" but about *Hosts*. If a host acts as a router, >> it's not the target audience of this draft. >=20 > But the host might want to act as a router temporarily? then it should probably do PD, otherwise it gets precisely one /64 subnet which might be enough but why constrain youself in that way. joel >=20 > Tim >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 --qAmqJ3FtXKIBAbwotfHjoBX0RHhE6NSgk-- --gIF1dW5Q0bNSSWGOC1nUlo6et69Gnotjg Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iEYEARECAAYFAljKWf8ACgkQ8AA1q7Z/VrJKVQCfSwetXSAPYnAqUpe3ffC+qHG1 rsgAn0gPgL54Sg4PLQkq1fNTEATMXtnR =3KZf -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --gIF1dW5Q0bNSSWGOC1nUlo6et69Gnotjg-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 02:31:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D88B21270AC for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:31:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UqyKvobqYzvG for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x241.google.com (mail-pg0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2EDEE1270B4 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:31:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x241.google.com with SMTP id g2so5426703pge.2 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:31:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=p9PsiEwkDMcpc1NQ6KJj7IerkkzrBVAFKsPK+sDoUqI=; b=EnAcFOtG1ALEm5Cm6705cj5/67Y1xhpXCHV60+Y1ScBJldHPrDOgzaqQCmDsuNi7+9 SqsLVaXaKqx/KsXhvvZEGkzbG969su9bRpydWubWOzdLKY8pd10Ld5XYiLDZPi4zICVW A2uNsDlTpN6+OSRg64qp7EckhjRTG5mldGuQTkkAvIdtR8/o7OBvn2kQ2EGI9RcepGjj LGh5QNITyrEt+8yU+npR5PhVzuOr7ZlisEuiyEzByKufnhwFqkyEzP2C1AKFYkOd1gt6 /5ytsx2FOmvNZIU0/YVe1qgKbD0sHHdF77pOS8x2qC1y8BOx4aBBd2IH3EKw9vY2BPDG 6Rxg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=p9PsiEwkDMcpc1NQ6KJj7IerkkzrBVAFKsPK+sDoUqI=; b=Ge10i/vWKi+eqJzT4W676xDLrItJtvpWS++wpW6j5+9kD1RSMRlwNtinJUda60KsmH L3BvEbfVvyjsKN9lTJ9VSzyxhE34IMuCqEONC9CkGeI54drQYrA+p76TR+TkqR/LRLqo 81wZ7LYFdg0im7GKMb2JL4JNe/9zANGmvtQLmey2h/pXbdWOoI5KtNlev7ZzPmjB8pEQ PgXqO77NXKOSL1FLiRoiuxf4lE7aRGls0v2F3N7lZWmSt0F+SN1mx5pDnuAEDtYTu9Iy SxpDrSpTVZuGZpHMYDyV9V1HVLQ5UIcQEyarH1hA0lZPe41pmI9neuq6ncLzuYywFAc0 XUUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2Yt+ETf1dzR2YBhDSlrZtdQmGOSdDpmD/CZosaIOFSvTxugDFJsUNB7+O8nK8fFw== X-Received: by 10.99.39.71 with SMTP id n68mr8677665pgn.85.1489656715736; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:31:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2620:f:8000:210:4dc8:6997:293:aa6c? ([2620:f:8000:210:4dc8:6997:293:aa6c]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h25sm9199274pfk.119.2017.03.16.02.31.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:31:51 +0100 Cc: Tim Chown , "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> To: Ole Troan X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:31:58 -0000 On Mar 16, 2017, at 10:24 AM, otroan@employees.org wrote: >=20 > A little flippant perhaps, but can you give an example of a node that = isn't a router anymore? > I think the statement "All hosts are routers" is almost true. >=20 > Certainly my phones, laptops, lightbulbs are all routers. I'd like to understand your meaning, if you don't mind. A router, per RFC 2460, is a system that receives a message, does no = processing on its content, but repeats it to another system. A host is = one that receives messages and processes their application layer = content. I think it's fair to say that an iPhone etc has more than one interface; = WiFi and LTE, perhaps. A laptop often has several interfaces such as = physical and wireless Ethernet, USB, Bluetooth, and other things. Having = multiple interfaces, however, does not qualify it as a router; what = qualifies it as a router is when it receives a message and repeats it, = usually on another interface. Yes, an iPhone acting as a hot spot can route between its WiFi and LTE = ports. If it is not configured as a hot spot, however, it generally uses = its many interfaces as ways to receive messages, pass them to = applications, and respond to them. Absent a specific (and unusual) = configuration, an iPhone therefore is a host, not a router. Are you and I using the words in the same way? I get the feeling that = you see multiple interfaces and infer "router".= From nobody Thu Mar 16 02:45:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FAF5126DD9 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:45:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id TFDbkfe3Gul2 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF7181272E1 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:45:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2017 09:45:34 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3571FD788D; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:45:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=eaQWA9YrTgQVT7+shXXiqhsUvnE=; b= LlqsFdkNHY05PfzrvJYcfDmkxIabVxAcLLVg2P+JAIfpqlMa92DQBkCQROAWahT6 jeuuIICEcqqLcgzImp9xhASkZ2SS5QDjtsLN4A7xnsQzOW/beHsjE+48eospRyW5 TOr2kkN2Q72qvbRegSdZSugmCbzB1kQLzw/C/esCN+c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=pZ00awe3FSQmY5jgj+8sEyh CQKvw0FIRvYIQGqdsv31vRx0/NtJkvlBxMwoBpI5oA2Oyy2fM1i/RL/MYTxmFTaE pLupLMyDFjemiE6XI8aG6NllJ7GTOSDkNghGtWpWsCc4/8je9Qhb/Arn1W1FWxed FJKZvqpxQ6D8TVU9R3Ww= Received: from h.hanazo.no (219.103.92.62.static.cust.telenor.com [62.92.103.219]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BCC6AD788B; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E68189F16887; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:45:31 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <39A15217-1802-4CE0-8303-1981D399A6A7@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_800B9481-591E-4DD2-A1E4-7AD529332525"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:45:31 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Tim Chown , "v6ops@ietf.org" To: Fred Baker References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:45:36 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_800B9481-591E-4DD2-A1E4-7AD529332525 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Fred, >> A little flippant perhaps, but can you give an example of a node that = isn't a router anymore? >> I think the statement "All hosts are routers" is almost true. >>=20 >> Certainly my phones, laptops, lightbulbs are all routers. >=20 > >=20 > I'd like to understand your meaning, if you don't mind. >=20 > A router, per RFC 2460, is a system that receives a message, does no = processing on its content, but repeats it to another system. A host is = one that receives messages and processes their application layer = content. 2460: router - a node that forwards IPv6 packets not explicitly = addressed to itself. > I think it's fair to say that an iPhone etc has more than one = interface; WiFi and LTE, perhaps. A laptop often has several interfaces = such as physical and wireless Ethernet, USB, Bluetooth, and other = things. Having multiple interfaces, however, does not qualify it as a = router; what qualifies it as a router is when it receives a message and = repeats it, usually on another interface. Phones act as routers when they do tethering. My laptop acts as a router when the hypervisor running on bare metal = routes traffic between the physical NICs and a set of VMs and = containers. > Yes, an iPhone acting as a hot spot can route between its WiFi and LTE = ports. If it is not configured as a hot spot, however, it generally uses = its many interfaces as ways to receive messages, pass them to = applications, and respond to them. Absent a specific (and unusual) = configuration, an iPhone therefore is a host, not a router. Correct, and switching between the two requires a single swipe with = suitable finger. And my lightbulbs, builds up a mesh and forward packets for each other. = Aka router. > Are you and I using the words in the same way? I get the feeling that = you see multiple interfaces and infer "router". No. Sure, many nodes can be configured to act either as hosts or routers. In = IPv4 the typical case is that it pretends to be a host northbound to = the network. Unfortunately that's how it is likely to pan out in IPv6 = too... Cheers, Ole --Apple-Mail=_800B9481-591E-4DD2-A1E4-7AD529332525 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYyl67AAoJEL7aWKiYQt92gi8P/imF7fa2dyV6c3/ymsLQcdfo DJWq3mEeVd46FND6lPaCVS5TORIhKpnT8kBrVdceNxvtZZlo7fQscx0I0QdK42Ua etxQY0fmg8LmbU13NsrcqACbfRpR093HjZb7ri3eBIf4B6FQQ5ctnSTKG0jB7Trf 5qPXUUe6tyLWZSW/ZNZPpKYVJALBHJDZ2UhKdgGVLwVGZVJ0DW+pZ8+6tMUMjN9v ZLyTDmgnfLIIo/FKKpStWpqKY9BvYDhAMhiXjNrCzY9QJvviA3cKLS9UYbzxvJqv PEQdWjBZ5svkiYOUmWMBtMIXRel2J+XMvKjY44lgAO3eDKnELQYQv47J7P1PDx6M P2hLuNoxI0AcT75qf5ObnscSVdOPdtMDFDHvuYCnmjDjOYbM3EvW9c+My4bOx1mR DOzv9v3p9tuIbueKfk//PzAijKiWKUazWbHL0OShwjGI4fD6CHf4uBTPRdv1yHAN 4WtEAxkTkr+dMY0GdKBId7Xnur9SF5DrNkg584xSMEtmLp7s4dfaK2YelTc5yXRY Mr1Cgu4lC5wVTl7jOwigQ9988myqamcVCJRMgnxvxFh5Ixn5/BRu7GWana9k8pIt 9oFynZadf3vJs4wvQeXCkMpW+WUmER0KZQholKpwZ80SMWwusdzEgCMDGlOBtCbv Qwzv7+MtEZPEN86YGKL7 =2D7G -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_800B9481-591E-4DD2-A1E4-7AD529332525-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 02:56:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC474126D74 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:56:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pIm79c-RrAlR for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:56:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A6A46126DD9 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 02:56:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97F7B614E1 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:56:20 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 55339604A9; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:56:20 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 43C7A9929; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:56:20 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:56:20 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: otroan@employees.org Cc: Tim Chown , Gert Doering , "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20170316095620.GI2367@Space.Net> References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="hIa+h4Sz91TLsYFQ" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 09:56:26 -0000 --hIa+h4Sz91TLsYFQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Thu, Mar 16, 2017 at 10:24:17AM +0100, otroan@employees.org wrote: > I think the statement "All hosts are routers" is almost true. only if ipv6_forwarding =3D 1 and yes, it can be easily changed, but this is a very relevant change. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --hIa+h4Sz91TLsYFQ Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAljKYUMACgkQ31bAZeTO f8W11g/5AcLadI6QEAJocWONLYtmKYIk5FGhI/ro9XdKxSEaGHAQN7CLdfC0H/jV b2P01QFh01L87T6yeCytYxef2DCKil+3Zt0F1FYjCD3xU42VwpCDQmaz/kW7WLlH WkYbUkKVcZVaKMLAHn1oxodwv7aZBHJ0SrdUPfoam/s4er2DoZPFOFMaAD7CxJOK OKvy6Z3tGAu0uwmAdUxE7C+qVQ6Tqv/7BTumc99oN22fxwYGI7nQrjuZmGDmcmZG qmgUAVk27uVj28Z9M8nmlT0/VnFoEa3ZuaYIn0T75/Tr8/HFeUYEV8pJqOPVfhNh jv9eij00Q6kRlTH/KwmH/yFJccda+iKIaZYeKNDoUsdzNx/Hm9Upls+4lIpxE4w8 0uCofK0IA0WcU4SkqAatU97Macuoov+4CTSWalCLISMg8+mlilUBZiBy+nL1mOz7 /tmz5oagvo0cS/j6H8b8HgpBKWmR3Ab05WGE8grzfTAjaiCtuVq0GEQq06B/R5SP nlBRrqxaFcdff6ALqmyTgxKhlxugg6XFpsdmp9hpXX4Jy76wFLWyP5hobk2qnHR4 sb6x8+01CPfihTPbnqi022IiFWut7YVo6oCSlugte5eWYGbB3oid5WGu9GCTJVzA J9dEKxVvthbh4mS6lLSSiRQupq3fYqugcEkKrdZFujnFTX/MBLk= =9l9j -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --hIa+h4Sz91TLsYFQ-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 04:57:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF0EC12943A for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 04:57:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IUQ5FWctzj0F for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 04:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [149.20.64.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB9F0129439 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 04:57:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B757E349452; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:57:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 976BA160076; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:57:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 82C65160077; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:57:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id 08FMr83rAVsY; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:57:48 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C94A8160076; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:57:47 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5CF7566EFB36; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 22:57:42 +1100 (EST) To: otroan@employees.org Cc: Joe Touch , v6ops@ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:18:30 +0100." <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 22:57:42 +1100 Message-Id: <20170316115742.5CF7566EFB36@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 11:57:52 -0000 In message <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org>, otroan@employe es.org writes: > Mark, > > Thanks for a great summary! > > > Of that list of cause for non responses, firewall cause about half > > of them: > > > > * EDNS being blocked/dropped (or only the first EDNS message is > responded to, > > older Microsoft servers have this > behaviour) > > * EDNS OPTIONS being filtered > > * fragmentation filtering > > > > In the future there wall also be operational issues with > > > > * EDNS version != 0 being filtered > > * EDNS flag XXXX being filtered > > > > At the moment the last two only impact testing traffic and protocol > > developers needing to decide how to how to fix / extend the DNS. > > They have already stopped DNSOP bumping the EDNS version number > > when cleaning up EDNS unknown option handling in RFC 6891. EDNS(0) > > undefined => EDNS(1) ignore. This is how it should have been done > > in a sane world without stupid firewall vendors that just block > > anything that is not what is currently being used irrespective of > > whether there was well defined behaviour for how to handle EDNS(1) > > queries when you only support EDNS(0) or not. > > To talk about IPv4 for a second (I know, I know). It isn't only firewall > vendors. > In all the IPv4 sharing mechanisms IPv4 fragments is a royal pain to deal > with, and very costly. > And we can agree that those mechanisms are evil, but we are were we are. > > I have implemented virtual reassembly in VPP for MAP-E. If fragments > arrive in order and are relatively closely spaced in time and packet > flow, it's fine, but as soon as they are out of order, which require > buffering it very quickly appears like a DOS attack. > Meaning fragments will regardless have a much higher drop probability. In > addition comes the issues of sharing the IP identifier space among > multiple users. > > I tried to get some data on IPv4 fragmentation but that was hard to find. > In the packet traces I found most of the fragmented traffic was either > DOS attacks, stuff that didn't reassemble, or DNS attacks. If anyone has > better data let me know. > > I'm not quite convinced that a protocol without a 3 way handshake is a > good idea anymore. > > Cheers, > Ole There is also a lot of legitimate fragmented DNS traffic and it is growing as more zones get signed. Almost all of it gets through provided you don't have a local firewall blocking it. [rock:~/git/bind9] marka% netstat -s | grep frag 35608 fragments received 0 fragments dropped (dup or out of space) 0 fragments dropped after timeout 0 output datagrams fragmented 0 fragments created 0 datagrams that can't be fragmented 45014 fragments received 1 fragment dropped (dup or out of space) 84 fragments dropped after timeout 0 fragments that exceeded limit 1 output datagram fragmented 2 fragments created 0 datagrams that can't be fragmented fragment: 45014 [rock:~/git/bind9] marka% uptime 22:53 up 23 days, 12:12, 8 users, load averages: 1.35 1.07 0.71 [rock:~/git/bind9] Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Thu Mar 16 05:02:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 910E0129452 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 05:02:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.321 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.321 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); 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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:28:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pRj0r_60pxf0 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69BE61294B3 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:28:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.189] (cpe-172-250-240-132.socal.res.rr.com [172.250.240.132]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2GES3W7001146 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:28:04 -0700 (PDT) To: otroan@employees.org, Mark Andrews References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <61c421d9-8eba-7677-baa9-686d08576856@isi.edu> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:28:04 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:28:56 -0000 On 3/16/2017 2:18 AM, otroan@employees.org wrote: > ... > To talk about IPv4 for a second (I know, I know). It isn't only firewal= l vendors. > In all the IPv4 sharing mechanisms IPv4 fragments is a royal pain to de= al with, and very costly. > And we can agree that those mechanisms are evil,=20 Are you saying that IPv4 fragments are worse than IPv6? IP source fragmentation is *required * as long as we use 'bare' tunnels (IP over IP with no intervening layers). Intervening layers only move reassembly to a different layer. =2E.. > I have implemented virtual reassembly in VPP for MAP-E. If fragments ar= rive in order and are relatively closely spaced in time and packet flow, = it's fine, but as soon as they are out of order, which require buffering = it very quickly appears like a DOS attack. Everything is a DOS attack. There was a time when IP header processing couldn't keep pace (thus the need for label switching that evolved into MPLS), where even IP itself was basically a DOS attack. =2E.. > I'm not quite convinced that a protocol without a 3 way handshake is a = good idea anymore. But that handshake is itself a significant opportunity for a DOS attack. Ultimately, any message you don't want can be considered an attack. However, I'm more concerned about the constant attack we endure from vendors trying to underdesign protocol implementations. Joe From nobody Thu Mar 16 07:47:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CAD88129543 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:47:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JBxHrCjDy6GU for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:47:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 60C3F129530 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:47:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2017 14:47:32 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0858D788B; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:47:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=uU6JMRsQyn2NnuLPykheiCCRGII=; b= ggpRxPzTE6133UhEotVwc1gCdnvMg9JLzaWLKK3qT1gHLQVWG2hVwx8sH5s14mFD aM0L/AUBSYK5UBhByxWpudNpDLBg+DCJQt3AaDJoOD0hZMt9uqKzixx83k+bLyuI HlvsIPxOft+VB6G5osHZrhXycjRjzhgJZ9vjmqXPG84= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=LLbgq7hqP3TVUYYOXAtJTi+ RfvE+ylCA5TFwzOuQr5RVQSyb+QWpOADviyVHOggaNkc80/nWjgN+Y2WxptZCHIL c0nXU/XmSJGFERtJayBZ9CrZjMrxNTGlidug9oKN+iRH5Qy6STJLlwvjt4/vGba4 zVxpbYBMXq/+Tu/g9R+4= Received: from h.hanazo.no (unknown [173.38.220.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3FB42D788A; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:47:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 533139F2780F; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:47:29 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <037189F2-8BA5-4876-BCD7-1BFDB2A54D9D@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_96C78713-4DB0-4655-A34F-FE1F219A9C91"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:47:28 +0100 In-Reply-To: <61c421d9-8eba-7677-baa9-686d08576856@isi.edu> Cc: Mark Andrews , v6ops@ietf.org To: Joe Touch References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org> <61c421d9-8eba-7677-baa9-686d08576856@isi.edu> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:47:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_96C78713-4DB0-4655-A34F-FE1F219A9C91 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Joe, >> To talk about IPv4 for a second (I know, I know). It isn't only = firewall vendors. >> In all the IPv4 sharing mechanisms IPv4 fragments is a royal pain to = deal with, and very costly. >> And we can agree that those mechanisms are evil, > Are you saying that IPv4 fragments are worse than IPv6? Yes, but because the IPv4 header is now 28 bytes and the network is = forced to do routing on address + port. That doesn't apply to IPv6. > IP source fragmentation is *required * as long as we use 'bare' = tunnels > (IP over IP with no intervening layers). Intervening layers only move > reassembly to a different layer. > ... >> I have implemented virtual reassembly in VPP for MAP-E. If fragments = arrive in order and are relatively closely spaced in time and packet = flow, it's fine, but as soon as they are out of order, which require = buffering it very quickly appears like a DOS attack. > Everything is a DOS attack. There was a time when IP header processing > couldn't keep pace (thus the need for label switching that evolved = into > MPLS), where even IP itself was basically a DOS attack. >=20 > ... >> I'm not quite convinced that a protocol without a 3 way handshake is = a good idea anymore. > But that handshake is itself a significant opportunity for a DOS = attack. >=20 > Ultimately, any message you don't want can be considered an attack. > However, I'm more concerned about the constant attack we endure from > vendors trying to underdesign protocol implementations. Cheap shots at vendors aside, the code is open source, feel free to = improve it. https://git.fd.io/vpp/tree/src/vnet/map/ip4_map.c But, any time a packet / packet train has a significantly higher = processing cost than others, drop probability raises. Regardless it is not within the bounds of physics to follow RFC791 = recommendations for reassembly. At 100Mpps I don't have 15 seconds * 100M buffer space. ;-) Just accept that IPv4 fragments are unlikely to have a happy life as a = consequence of IPv4 address run out. Tough luck. Best regards, Ole --Apple-Mail=_96C78713-4DB0-4655-A34F-FE1F219A9C91 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYyqWBAAoJEL7aWKiYQt923ZIP/AplmFqhMdPIGTs0RpWu49Tl u4vyG7DhDgTPuILtgwC1WVJ79K1UyHGH//b/JkBiG0mDUUw0w6rF11ba2vyHPowH e4lkVrwuGa63LrHYaF5gWJkvqB/fdYNzsoQewOj0pfKqlKXfs7sENoQbYe+2PJ7B eqJhYsLLcH7j1E5BgyLkgsiJW01mLeiCOwRr6QRK8SxR7LUs5qQfossafOy85CV6 bR/roUx25VC3gh29RLeZrWtzXaPIrwDjUhLCYYP1rGO2eS9lzCgOgH9OfhGA6NSf tYkvoSBbOCGDGwM2ONWyKHwKMiDUsKLMhVIl3m/XAOe7QErq0qScgXHABmj5kUk/ rr6nvB/APw4eJ3bBkaK/v50Hhi68PspGMti6SXgflQYBtf5eJcoJk9xmWccANLvZ cRlTnMEfm5lMyp3hTVG2/1qpXygcEfT0LC0tZkFNNmDiZhGoMFsSifX3ArEmFWsH v1OA0WkKxJKzuCSKwRZIxz7JBFixYOOTMuzUDTgOQndG28nLYWlM/CjDEk00rS+k BB2U1mW4fxRWZ4/l/az8aMPUF9paK9bp3U1AGD2j2yCQkuAPmni5nqnA08L8JthJ 60ScArHyNhdWHc8rz3ZAu+ygBH5vmw1uamugrMuNDPad53lXahR/WSIHOoWkVgTD wV61gDl32ZJnQcsHH4uJ =X13/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_96C78713-4DB0-4655-A34F-FE1F219A9C91-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 07:56:30 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A89A12956C for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:56:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4pjH5FDtskNc for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x232.google.com (mail-it0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48015129572 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:55:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x232.google.com with SMTP id m27so89976092iti.0 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:55:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=J88ORb8lu9qRgo+7NrWuCmWLxAAiTaGPOLsTCRMSx7U=; b=MQ97pqxdoNfcxoI3h55Py2DAhy7ohTPomwzdvzcR0WGlDDA+88QZsGsQSJVkSUm9ES ZU0+RAVKy8HiAThseRfNfaacWqQmnEZd2b74i7qb9506nhGBZgH12JRIlLdFLrtUN8it CnovqC+9vPyKXVTyAC+L/iJxucXLnO9XyeGWAG3vgRxkc/OsSZZguoUrXjfJnJcWltkm azw2e9ctCgNNuLmyzMGwbfhhuFBItFb6qneI2JNn44Sgl1q+OBonevU2dW13QTgUhrei fOSMm9D+moKrSmsi5DhADaQeU+n0wKMrcXNufwTAzNzMnE61w8VlY6Ln6ix5ZW1GHCe7 LhCA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=J88ORb8lu9qRgo+7NrWuCmWLxAAiTaGPOLsTCRMSx7U=; b=hox5/otGPPYVADj22S7WYLRw78LrmFgcotvJG/OSonMQl8gnHrOhMj566Tb/ZrNfH/ 3ifmr+gbWqtF+Ygoys29boXGmtP6F3QdD4YQTyeB/xikcsPaeuBSpGKs5jlgO7URSTIf Dj9VJZKKKPBVPxFJbDxK6QLpVbK8TV2ARa7oh9vYYf55nNF0wP5YJQr8oef1URILK2cT eyPUcnzVe5+h2gGttmqpdBQb+5IYdC8TWC3n2M2qb9Jyd6fCMeUPslWFKG15UR/9zfpz T998wh6gfMIetvGLkMAUxIkK/Mlt/VRzvYRIf+8Ba9w9cX5GRGsEccuJ3aCF/GmpB7X3 CySw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3hSWbViG+2yXgSlzrHtTrnyI1uIBDrbiV3DunNNjnAJIczvUnwp5zkBcABSNvsRg== X-Received: by 10.107.6.157 with SMTP id f29mr10206368ioi.205.1489676070712; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:54:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.11.95] (50-76-68-137-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.76.68.137]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p204sm1727756itp.19.2017.03.16.07.54.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 07:54:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Fred Baker , Ole Troan References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 03:54:40 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:56:28 -0000 On 16/03/2017 22:31, Fred Baker wrote: > > On Mar 16, 2017, at 10:24 AM, otroan@employees.org wrote: >> >> A little flippant perhaps, but can you give an example of a node that isn't a router anymore? >> I think the statement "All hosts are routers" is almost true. >> >> Certainly my phones, laptops, lightbulbs are all routers. > > > > I'd like to understand your meaning, if you don't mind. > > A router, per RFC 2460, is a system that receives a message, does no processing on its content, but repeats it to another system. A host is one that receives messages and processes their application layer content. > > I think it's fair to say that an iPhone etc has more than one interface; WiFi and LTE, perhaps. A laptop often has several interfaces such as physical and wireless Ethernet, USB, Bluetooth, and other things. Having multiple interfaces, however, does not qualify it as a router; what qualifies it as a router is when it receives a message and repeats it, usually on another interface. > > Yes, an iPhone acting as a hot spot can route between its WiFi and LTE ports. If it is not configured as a hot spot, however, it generally uses its many interfaces as ways to receive messages, pass them to applications, and respond to them. Absent a specific (and unusual) configuration, an iPhone therefore is a host, not a router. > > Are you and I using the words in the same way? I get the feeling that you see multiple interfaces and infer "router". As others have implied, multiple interfaces means *potential* router, and that's the point, isn't it: if you give a *potential* router only a /64, it can support a single subnet but it can't support multiple subnets and subsidiary routers. And Alexandre is challenging that limitation. But we have said elsewhere that ISPs should provide more than a /64 per subscriber; it seems like a different discussion. Brian From nobody Thu Mar 16 08:03:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A11C8129559 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:03:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KL6NCVjCOAM4 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:03:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BF501294F8 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2017 15:03:08 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DCF1D788D; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:03:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=HXQBF5AujzhdXEvlqZgb94XByBA=; b= MG9PBnkRLTAwLFlrIOGRziLdlpFP4M+uzxPmHn/Xz52FapdAufZZas4PgOeHKYem C2lciHe/JvVGWGZTCS8k4VNvffHzkuT6hEIgYCEbgAoNq8RDMaJCCdmRz3N0bbpQ L7TyC8+8sABYS3dt1jtdmesscPNIdUob0MtBUpN7tLM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=SQF1nBfwz3sdiGnLnZ1PrzR gojyVB6CsbtahM3EvnRoK6whmgMtEWgmYNlqlgimu7wUGxJhgcylYbKxlhAVRB9q NLXBjQb/ocekibE4hDV+RRzjj/pFzsIyLcVGwA2RE1UuuSzvxCSMcvYPSoh638Rk XpYEk0tFYrlGOGnuG4+M= Received: from h.hanazo.no (unknown [173.38.220.48]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F11AAD788B; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:03:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id E9C2E9F2CA6A; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:03:05 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B379E3AD-B271-4D33-8797-85571D700161"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:03:05 +0100 In-Reply-To: <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> Cc: Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org" To: Brian E Carpenter References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:03:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B379E3AD-B271-4D33-8797-85571D700161 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> I'd like to understand your meaning, if you don't mind. >>=20 >> A router, per RFC 2460, is a system that receives a message, does no = processing on its content, but repeats it to another system. A host is = one that receives messages and processes their application layer = content. >>=20 >> I think it's fair to say that an iPhone etc has more than one = interface; WiFi and LTE, perhaps. A laptop often has several interfaces = such as physical and wireless Ethernet, USB, Bluetooth, and other = things. Having multiple interfaces, however, does not qualify it as a = router; what qualifies it as a router is when it receives a message and = repeats it, usually on another interface. >>=20 >> Yes, an iPhone acting as a hot spot can route between its WiFi and = LTE ports. If it is not configured as a hot spot, however, it generally = uses its many interfaces as ways to receive messages, pass them to = applications, and respond to them. Absent a specific (and unusual) = configuration, an iPhone therefore is a host, not a router. >>=20 >> Are you and I using the words in the same way? I get the feeling that = you see multiple interfaces and infer "router". >=20 > As others have implied, multiple interfaces means *potential* router, = and that's the point, > isn't it: if you give a *potential* router only a /64, it can support = a single subnet > but it can't support multiple subnets and subsidiary routers. And = Alexandre is challenging > that limitation. But we have said elsewhere that ISPs should provide = more than a /64 > per subscriber; it seems like a different discussion. Take the simple case of a laptop with VMs. It has to handle the smallest common denominator. As long as networks = treat everything that connects to it as hosts. Then either the host with VMs (aka router) has to pretend to be a host = and do one of bridging or NAT. Or with this proposal it can subnet the = /64. Cheers, Ole --Apple-Mail=_B379E3AD-B271-4D33-8797-85571D700161 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYyqkpAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92BagP/Ao3Rub7/j8TaRIQsCQhgeA0 NuaXZQ6J5vhklDX3kXgnR/iohY0g3WtAe58K48CKIk95l8rcPz6EKrieuIibP9f+ hleMUqfZzoJpHPf7jYtV1un/cEZ9qdJp9Al7zWmNsJHidxXyz+3TrNykTh+giPm6 Tt3dmKEHNFg0B7PEEO84t3piD/Nrxj2s2GdPTq347BbvYVpFJ1soeEChZXBsoNCM 5kNb4g3CVgPeE5sXxmVZTf1sevzSoFATJTialhjuoHMGKqqdW94NUktRmftZl0u+ G2StEJXq4BrkMp8AswMEIaWhkYksDL2NKecLQ00iaAy6xKz30OdCOa3x96qzdJzO 1SBSGZ+7lY2E0yIORGukhvmcOtBAzB6SZ3le8VCE1JmKs0nL2PePbmEWUNg8KFDA X2fxhamt3p0iadIj7o0/EwV2PTFNmBC/hbAhhezfreGBMOmWltE3d2Ev91ySwyZk Hp1YoA/H/ubcgknh76yGtnWazxXOgzYfMQZw42h/QHru5w0fAKX5nxvrngroAq74 7TzKOFG5m8sq4TInftPz4hOj2muA96M411sMMH9BQazlev97NMwQ49DlnIuQa01C 5i+oijF+vyji1PWxwHUFc7wj7Y35s5Xbc9GYM85KAkOaRo5y1bS0+A7W5ic2AmLT Mm+GMAm1aWZvVUEzQK+H =Dl/J -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B379E3AD-B271-4D33-8797-85571D700161-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 08:04:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A2081294F4 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:04:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id enMXhslTP_ML for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36E3612954D for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:03:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.189] (cpe-172-250-240-132.socal.res.rr.com [172.250.240.132]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2GF2rvB010304 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:02:55 -0700 (PDT) To: otroan@employees.org References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org> <61c421d9-8eba-7677-baa9-686d08576856@isi.edu> <037189F2-8BA5-4876-BCD7-1BFDB2A54D9D@employees.org> Cc: Mark Andrews , v6ops@ietf.org From: Joe Touch Message-ID: Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:02:54 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <037189F2-8BA5-4876-BCD7-1BFDB2A54D9D@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:04:01 -0000 On 3/16/2017 7:47 AM, otroan@employees.org wrote: > Joe, > >>> To talk about IPv4 for a second (I know, I know). It isn't only firew= all vendors. >>> In all the IPv4 sharing mechanisms IPv4 fragments is a royal pain to = deal with, and very costly. >>> And we can agree that those mechanisms are evil, >> Are you saying that IPv4 fragments are worse than IPv6? > Yes, but because the IPv4 header is now 28 bytes and the network is for= ced to do routing on address + port. The network is never *forced* to route on anything beyond IP destination address. > That doesn't apply to IPv6. Perhaps we can take the clarification off-list; I'm still not understanding your point. In both cases, all but the first fragment lack a port. I *wish* the flow-ID were a sufficient replacement, but AFAICT there are still routers that rely on port inspection even when the flow ID is nonzero (incorrectly, IMO). =2E.. > But, any time a packet / packet train has a significantly higher proces= sing cost than others, drop probability raises. > Regardless it is not within the bounds of physics to follow RFC791 reco= mmendations for reassembly. > At 100Mpps I don't have 15 seconds * 100M buffer space. ;-)Just accept = that IPv4 fragments are unlikely to have a happy life as a consequence of= IPv4 address run out. Tough luck. > That's why we relaxed the IPv4 ID uniqueness requirements to track expected reordering in RFC 6864, which updates RFC791. Joe From nobody Thu Mar 16 08:12:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F369129564 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:12:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pXaoxGnmbbDw for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:12:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2712F129555 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2017 15:12:44 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF7CBD788E; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:12:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=MS2rYOnSEtntDx+sG1iMpXJqYRk=; b= LW7GitsvNdosEoeJAxtJJccXCkmLt6Pnlpok4Uhg3HddAjP3F8T2s1vKdIrp71Ds itc3WLzdtFGUqdRBQMoUNQ/CsSirUTFUpnzPGS5VAi5MUDooWPcnGhALO+j3yuF2 Ux6T0GCsZUE/R1hNbjlgYlDCgG9EJSDTem5s6YVHUwM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=q3lkkMw5FqmEgnAh4lbl9eS yJHpoj9m+aPT/vIPtiDSt66RBu5fYMBpn4tixvVFqE6oNnPOnOd7hKnhPieZIE6+ bMRok0mBZuDkjV0hihScaYj7pd2lDDmabWVcgt6HAAtSsDEQ4m1hcDw+HgKG6pkH 0mEazY7LVMQmIbpOcTis= Received: from h.hanazo.no (unknown [173.38.220.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6A88BD788B; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:12:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 796689F2EDB9; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:12:41 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1274BD6B-B023-4A34-B66E-4348D955CA46"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:12:41 +0100 In-Reply-To: Cc: Mark Andrews , v6ops@ietf.org To: Joe Touch References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org> <61c421d9-8eba-7677-baa9-686d08576856@isi.edu> <037189F2-8BA5-4876-BCD7-1BFDB2A54D9D@employees.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:12:47 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1274BD6B-B023-4A34-B66E-4348D955CA46 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Joe, >>>> To talk about IPv4 for a second (I know, I know). It isn't only = firewall vendors. >>>> In all the IPv4 sharing mechanisms IPv4 fragments is a royal pain = to deal with, and very costly. >>>> And we can agree that those mechanisms are evil, >>> Are you saying that IPv4 fragments are worse than IPv6? >> Yes, but because the IPv4 header is now 28 bytes and the network is = forced to do routing on address + port. >=20 > The network is never *forced* to route on anything beyond IP = destination > address. Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding is. The network is _forced_ to route on address + port. To make the IPv4 = Internet continue to operate there is no choice other than sharing an = IPv4 address among more and more end users. Cheers, Ole >=20 >> That doesn't apply to IPv6. >=20 > Perhaps we can take the clarification off-list; I'm still not > understanding your point. In both cases, all but the first fragment = lack > a port. I *wish* the flow-ID were a sufficient replacement, but AFAICT > there are still routers that rely on port inspection even when the = flow > ID is nonzero (incorrectly, IMO). >=20 > ... >> But, any time a packet / packet train has a significantly higher = processing cost than others, drop probability raises. >> Regardless it is not within the bounds of physics to follow RFC791 = recommendations for reassembly. >> At 100Mpps I don't have 15 seconds * 100M buffer space. ;-)Just = accept that IPv4 fragments are unlikely to have a happy life as a = consequence of IPv4 address run out. Tough luck. >>=20 > That's why we relaxed the IPv4 ID uniqueness requirements to track > expected reordering in RFC 6864, which updates RFC791. >=20 > Joe --Apple-Mail=_1274BD6B-B023-4A34-B66E-4348D955CA46 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYyqtpAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92JgAQAI5p7+9QpSBV97F2/IQRCRh6 OEDdDyMarO0FSbpxFiy8Q/UOVxzIIEBxGOEiH59n7nFKpA5f5EoIexXUbVC/mp0V bBNXF144zoWaYYgk2kXp9y1CqDbmgwCyC+0PiFpsyUUFh0lTKAHBhWN+aCtH3g74 XP2rh56ezXtFTTwiAu+8OePdhHT3ibIJyv8Vh/jbUKycET81+qjOsz0o2aHm+Esb 0t3NGWN7f2hoaVkRRVP5bew/BP/Uyea2vIgX4riN54OyfqfD1HhUOaGCvcyDO2nc 69ztSL6bi6YuzbVKDi/XweYVWnMlrwYwuvtFsnOsJrwBgN+p87Wq9mAYFUML14G5 BDZ1pWp/9MnRfI4clxt1guJgqqGyBL9dP4foVXueXR6y3PSx79dwqdq7v2/4N7Ms qfHxdjr3CHK/7omIQO9HtApzraIkjoV8Dn/7OfH5HviiJdtr4dYbpiZUPZWnvoeW dCLYR1H0r/HvwDxMh284AYA8HX1yONnHlIDkjJT/aQF1HL2QNuGF1ODzxgd9J64R cfyEZAA+bYFGnNwyo1r+g8XeRswfk0+ro0fEKHScEG1cYg2jBxh0/OFqetC9qpjW ESoImpmGSPesGACmnJwyaShEA/fDZRYveVZzKYv4rnhf6vc3WiaIiBQNQpMmF5M/ rW9NGLMfc7EnnTNrB7tT =cvK3 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1274BD6B-B023-4A34-B66E-4348D955CA46-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 08:21:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 99587129583 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:21:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id M6aXpDvOHfU4 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:21:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.8]) (using TLSv1 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8941129546 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide.extra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Internet-out-2.4) with ESMTP id v2GFLjbf032576 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:21:45 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id AE0DB2034DF for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:21:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A381320997E for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:21:45 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2GFLjD0031152 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:21:45 +0100 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:21:38 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:21:50 -0000 Le 16/03/2017 16:03, otroan@employees.org a crit : >>> I'd like to understand your meaning, if you don't mind. >>> >>> A router, per RFC 2460, is a system that receives a message, does >>> no processing on its content, but repeats it to another system. A >>> host is one that receives messages and processes their >>> application layer content. >>> >>> I think it's fair to say that an iPhone etc has more than one >>> interface; WiFi and LTE, perhaps. A laptop often has several >>> interfaces such as physical and wireless Ethernet, USB, >>> Bluetooth, and other things. Having multiple interfaces, however, >>> does not qualify it as a router; what qualifies it as a router is >>> when it receives a message and repeats it, usually on another >>> interface. >>> >>> Yes, an iPhone acting as a hot spot can route between its WiFi >>> and LTE ports. If it is not configured as a hot spot, however, it >>> generally uses its many interfaces as ways to receive messages, >>> pass them to applications, and respond to them. Absent a specific >>> (and unusual) configuration, an iPhone therefore is a host, not a >>> router. >>> >>> Are you and I using the words in the same way? I get the feeling >>> that you see multiple interfaces and infer "router". >> >> As others have implied, multiple interfaces means *potential* >> router, and that's the point, isn't it: if you give a *potential* >> router only a /64, it can support a single subnet but it can't >> support multiple subnets and subsidiary routers. And Alexandre is >> challenging that limitation. But we have said elsewhere that ISPs >> should provide more than a /64 per subscriber; it seems like a >> different discussion. > > Take the simple case of a laptop with VMs. It has to handle the > smallest common denominator. As long as networks treat everything > that connects to it as hosts. Then either the host with VMs (aka > router) has to pretend to be a host and do one of bridging or NAT. Or > with this proposal it can subnet the /64. I am not sure I understand, but it is hard to subnet a /64 further to interfaces that want their IIDs to be 64. Or you want these interfaces to not run SLAAC? Do you have other means to automatically configure their addresses? Alex > > Cheers, Ole > > > > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Thu Mar 16 08:27:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BF959129626 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:27:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y6fdSKEdcpYP for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2CFFC12960F for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:27:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2017 15:27:28 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25C9CD788A; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:27:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=rM+tVWLaRm/ILgzn9tmPiDMaBZo=; b= cTN4nAIPBiaFdsgcBMrt3+DMrShHGdU6uvG9lrgZvmJzu8LL9bOeW3MoITeU8Yi6 RxkGjpzlP+wMk7U1AyBTNUUWC8072ppLkMiY2t16ii+chv0eJeXWXNtV3vkPVqaJ 0HX5AQ7Lsc05Xz4U0mRzuAs+CdGMfVg7b/1KUNw875k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=gCdkWKc6exfrAHYxULdQGoZ XzJrGACwGEViT13JwUaUmJukK/eNNXHrz2p/RqxOsYnKIVP3UEa557GxoGOFpbF8 Ulsh5SroOSyqrWSt23IHlWb2CH/8o4qPgVVBeOhWgoqgjh34RSI07B7u+YRtMftX Rmpz8WQGKChLvE+nsU6M= Received: from h.hanazo.no (unknown [173.38.220.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B6F54D788E; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 08:27:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22D2C9F33085; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:27:26 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1BCB8756-77B9-4159-B0B4-0AF78F61DF3B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:27:25 +0100 In-Reply-To: <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org To: Alexandre Petrescu References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:27:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1BCB8756-77B9-4159-B0B4-0AF78F61DF3B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> Take the simple case of a laptop with VMs. It has to handle the >> smallest common denominator. As long as networks treat everything >> that connects to it as hosts. Then either the host with VMs (aka >> router) has to pretend to be a host and do one of bridging or NAT. Or >> with this proposal it can subnet the /64. >=20 > I am not sure I understand, but it is hard to subnet a /64 further to = interfaces that want their IIDs to be 64. Or you want these interfaces = to not run SLAAC? Do you have other means to automatically configure = their addresses? I just enumerated the choices an operator / implementor have in this = case. Ole --Apple-Mail=_1BCB8756-77B9-4159-B0B4-0AF78F61DF3B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYyq7dAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92eL8QAJZ1+506gaQ2D/atC+9FUBlq dilVYZThPgWGHx/TYGuxo2FtuUnV+G7FdR/w0e2M/9PadV4YY6FEkmkmlzr8DjZy 8FlirGfUPGqzbAGWAGxPANMEHQmFTVyRKqvNQEYLHJ/Ulp52nb9GpWRvcdRzG3pl lP9jXLholUCRha6KJ7UH0wxfXKaWb3Cb8Os4AF0LHGNKJpd/TnC3IVxBvfEOH1Ua 4mIz+4a8K49KfhW8UHD9euSvcAEOxGNoeAbb+uufAPr6S5BzzBGhtmLZpyPiFn87 yTqt+8CRZShub6UZ/Z1N8NnJV0dA/P/CQxpuR14/W1Dmp9Au4b6gqY7JQKnpyQpk dhhqJYs8bydDFiaWlav5lVWCmZBDE/UppyQuARrUBR4WZEsXWwHv8T+UOO+3s66j Eq8Gfcc3e0uE6iQgKn0GyFBxl2Tvpvzk1Y/c8wHCfX1EVxa+DKTUseS9ZM35nghx PThLw/M6Xfknn0wczJsL5SpU21T4MG7yco6Eaz6d7Z1R+P9C6odhYmgIxF0PZ0ON jxUtobP1SwxnD/bj9lCrfzJy3QsFFQ4IQ574Z+hDRo5cGygYuBwBmxLcVtb1aiIX DIP2/sH5Haxuo0CQkCZ5u58B0SSpmYZ7Itar7LmKGWPsHzdGJL5O0ZcvzRW9x714 pqT5zN9twwWjfbUFrCvr =7OZH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1BCB8756-77B9-4159-B0B4-0AF78F61DF3B-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 10:23:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1CC151296D8 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:23:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.102 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.102 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_ALL=0.8, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JpLZj59jg0vz for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:23:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from owen.delong.com (owen.delong.com [192.159.10.2]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 426FE1296D6 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:23:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.211.100.140] ([94.127.55.205]) (authenticated bits=0) by owen.delong.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id v2GHMMX0007036 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:22:25 -0700 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) From: Owen DeLong In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:22:22 -0700 Cc: Joe Touch , v6ops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <812101C4-6894-46DF-90B7-99B77E709E24@delong.com> References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org> <61c421d9-8eba-7677-baa9-686d08576856@isi.edu> <037189F2-8BA5-4876-BCD7-1BFDB2A54D9D@employees.org> To: otroan@employees.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 17:23:33 -0000 > On Mar 16, 2017, at 8:12 AM, otroan@employees.org wrote: >=20 > Joe, >=20 >>>>> To talk about IPv4 for a second (I know, I know). It isn't only = firewall vendors. >>>>> In all the IPv4 sharing mechanisms IPv4 fragments is a royal pain = to deal with, and very costly. >>>>> And we can agree that those mechanisms are evil, >>>> Are you saying that IPv4 fragments are worse than IPv6? >>> Yes, but because the IPv4 header is now 28 bytes and the network is = forced to do routing on address + port. >>=20 >> The network is never *forced* to route on anything beyond IP = destination >> address. >=20 > Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding is. > The network is _forced_ to route on address + port. To make the IPv4 = Internet continue to operate there is no choice other than sharing an = IPv4 address among more and more end users. The network is not forced to route on address + port. Some operators choose to continue to support a protocol that should have = been long since deprecated rather than implementing IPv6. The = consequence of that choice is a self-inflicted wound. Owen >=20 > Cheers, > Ole >=20 >=20 >>=20 >>> That doesn't apply to IPv6. >>=20 >> Perhaps we can take the clarification off-list; I'm still not >> understanding your point. In both cases, all but the first fragment = lack >> a port. I *wish* the flow-ID were a sufficient replacement, but = AFAICT >> there are still routers that rely on port inspection even when the = flow >> ID is nonzero (incorrectly, IMO). >>=20 >> ... >>> But, any time a packet / packet train has a significantly higher = processing cost than others, drop probability raises. >>> Regardless it is not within the bounds of physics to follow RFC791 = recommendations for reassembly. >>> At 100Mpps I don't have 15 seconds * 100M buffer space. ;-)Just = accept that IPv4 fragments are unlikely to have a happy life as a = consequence of IPv4 address run out. Tough luck. >>>=20 >> That's why we relaxed the IPv4 ID uniqueness requirements to track >> expected reordering in RFC 6864, which updates RFC791. >>=20 >> Joe >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Thu Mar 16 10:31:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6EB981296E5 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:31:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C5O0iqbpdEqq for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:31:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x244.google.com (mail-it0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D08D91296D1 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x244.google.com with SMTP id g138so8173719itb.0 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:31:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=tHRoaISQ7Vwy4Fvw6Dz1EhJ2SOtLykXkW8auIiwZoSI=; b=kRlxWHukWIxVqKgzOYz5x2rjSe38lWRTVMdaqW4RzYviJaNGAP8j1zV7cHBdF0maFD nxlN9ElA0vMEaNcdLn+DAxZPKSBLJfuQs+WC1/Nd+IlgARRK03dV69GNTAC+MynVw5px 3xJH5dWUcC2BByHEE2ga3SHEOrNZHYWIaOku1rroWBkS5SQK7iq63GLgIR9CM2yNKGeO F2Pvwf5SUJkV0KsinW9JHEeaSq5LJqShhsJogkHXshwYLOKoyXTX4uz5oAe4DbxVIaAW cvlefDvNDBPnyfwkZOhiMQJ+6bHexszEbpNCfOAE4m063f03KcrlrWVoGw45rljX5sTZ Kn5g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=tHRoaISQ7Vwy4Fvw6Dz1EhJ2SOtLykXkW8auIiwZoSI=; b=DZbjn/g2NIT+gAKDpg7EHSd2eB5j4r61Grgt0XqYlRMU2rIyFtbjKmkHPyYldSEG5C CF0Klsyw8uNEnz5MQVPoi/wzblJICKiZEPSmRSs1VEHsTuquKSwfF4bhxG8T4POWjdEw UXaU8DyB9o0jqpQqrCKkt8G6IqFi8qIQJIxtrrtqtG+BtamfiiWnwIMx3mtU6u1UA+BC qNzRktMYoYmt6BXgB6gfQdaGI2icVOJRJfcyS7JV7KCwywMnKvJzYx/oYEj4nY3KoA5R V9CUMyWzn1EdlMAYHB6VQtlq2e45OxHcmanOJstPzsTLtXjB0Z9A4CKjBnekHa4B3xjr gxQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3u+XQUWy1Hx0ZenzN5yJSEPNyExBJLILWHL5U45ckt0u7NjPsnsfYcOsRuBAdO7Q== X-Received: by 10.107.159.69 with SMTP id i66mr10580721ioe.143.1489685494118; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:31:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.11.95] (50-76-68-137-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.76.68.137]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h15sm1902929ita.20.2017.03.16.10.31.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:31:33 -0700 (PDT) To: otroan@employees.org, Alexandre Petrescu References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 06:31:43 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 17:31:36 -0000 On 17/03/2017 04:27, otroan@employees.org wrote: >>> Take the simple case of a laptop with VMs. It has to handle the >>> smallest common denominator. As long as networks treat everything >>> that connects to it as hosts. Then either the host with VMs (aka >>> router) has to pretend to be a host and do one of bridging or NAT. Or >>> with this proposal it can subnet the /64. >> >> I am not sure I understand, but it is hard to subnet a /64 further to interfaces that want their IIDs to be 64. Or you want these interfaces to not run SLAAC? Do you have other means to automatically configure their addresses? > > I just enumerated the choices an operator / implementor have in this case. Yes, but only if /64 is no longer sacred. It's going to be tricky if some of the nodes on the /66 subnets assume SLAAC at /64. So, it seems clear to me that while getting a /64 is better than getting a /128, it's even better to get a /56. Or even one of those 15 trillion /48s. We should make it clear that /64 is not even second-best. Just better than /128. Brian From nobody Thu Mar 16 10:32:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBB501296E0 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:32:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p1l_MLNIvM7J for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BA8B1296EE for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:32:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2017 17:32:50 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id A6512D788B; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:32:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=N914gZuLkYPlFJ8CMBBzLwAUsec=; b= qfOWSWCcgP371g39ScY/g7bpmUx/X2Entyfzrg6NxlUO7RLZvZdixitJG5Jy3For WDfmNUDpKAivQf18M35Ox/jpplMeYlQibdlIdy0eSVIrwbQU9oa4Ywp1UDqX6lb/ WB2fWnGbhMbtZ/MLCJj0xZk0wjWkoFQK3vM3LqTjJ6U= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=AoYXeQErYZ+Ofl3CCezoljT C+VEpHQmbG7z0qpvB7leRangeB3X2bFh3ut269NRdsMCwGYwlR4TbWpmRagfylPM WvuaSj/NGhgcZa4TAmUpWclMB6/xXfaVizC/G6VeCnfOLNMKl3cslrrKGemBPZAt ZFJXSHCTlBcNs9Yx32/0= Received: from h.hanazo.no (96.51-175-103.customer.lyse.net [51.175.103.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 71CE8D788A; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:32:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCE489F44293; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 18:32:47 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <56FF0877-9B4E-49DA-8DE6-F1752BC8E6DD@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_376E1B39-0FE1-431F-AE76-89D68AE0BEF0"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 18:32:46 +0100 In-Reply-To: <812101C4-6894-46DF-90B7-99B77E709E24@delong.com> Cc: Joe Touch , v6ops@ietf.org To: Owen DeLong References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org> <61c421d9-8eba-7677-baa9-686d08576856@isi.edu> <037189F2-8BA5-4876-BCD7-1BFDB2A54D9D@employees.org> <812101C4-6894-46DF-90B7-99B77E709E24@delong.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 17:32:52 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_376E1B39-0FE1-431F-AE76-89D68AE0BEF0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >>>>>> To talk about IPv4 for a second (I know, I know). It isn't only = firewall vendors. >>>>>> In all the IPv4 sharing mechanisms IPv4 fragments is a royal pain = to deal with, and very costly. >>>>>> And we can agree that those mechanisms are evil, >>>>> Are you saying that IPv4 fragments are worse than IPv6? >>>> Yes, but because the IPv4 header is now 28 bytes and the network is = forced to do routing on address + port. >>>=20 >>> The network is never *forced* to route on anything beyond IP = destination >>> address. >>=20 >> Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding is. >> The network is _forced_ to route on address + port. To make the IPv4 = Internet continue to operate there is no choice other than sharing an = IPv4 address among more and more end users. >=20 > The network is not forced to route on address + port. >=20 > Some operators choose to continue to support a protocol that should = have been long since deprecated rather than implementing IPv6. The = consequence of that choice is a self-inflicted wound. I do like your fundamentalist stance. Ole --Apple-Mail=_376E1B39-0FE1-431F-AE76-89D68AE0BEF0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYysw/AAoJEL7aWKiYQt92ko8P/j/HQ0aV7qfzo8PhqHsMCdNS MCkzSFF/IK6gT6Tq4zD3p6HPC062LmV6ND+izFCm38/+IOwHMwwVEPV0v4LhW3Ay gAig1H5/iMjcgX7puCUyNkfDyGnFN+4vP3McsslrUTd9tLXqKke50sTcjOA64xZX gZUjIzswKukremk4J/NLAuAD6BV2whIoLcsNKkQ6qAAfwOGlM290jZAeWOktv77W vU3IoLhsYI7166I8KOMsrdvqhaGQFbA0Loc+IcnARzaimi8upujwQiq8HHnM3JCp 7RH7kGi8nWd/A6Y3MKzHyWmyvmxH42J2LkGsAfVHkfTmPOuL0IzalucUNARWZVbF po1XNwMk4FrbTR0C2nre/V8v9LFRRQGeGwwUn9XzoPfQqYm0z08+YaEdQErpuqor h64LOMQVWZhRa54BcBh/mZH0AOWT3phViZ6RUqbd6qlwxGP8dR1/ClFUNPdVYZBm DTiPgs7F2p1rUs8MDZTSTuKJPZckrAvZ7zE5tQe0hg7HV791xv/xj4UWVzkWuQQW 3jHRJV79/BVDKX+N6hvMY4FqRHcAOf1ZyZvnmMD/3KqxauHY/x8wDigvnebn60Df WEdXkw+alu+AU4EfTvsEYKStN0OZ4EgV8iMEyBDRw+ofCTsetOb3w2L4WDWd49RO dwm5Y5XgNlOPSleqQdc9 =te7/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_376E1B39-0FE1-431F-AE76-89D68AE0BEF0-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 10:38:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 518801296F5 for ; 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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:38:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=HgbbqWMM2nPyfAa5HB1684b7398=; b= EJxKRzk5gVh7I57TSeqMHicX8vePXsv1QoXOzJ+ShkRTH+be8VQzc5QQcskUohy2 TQlGzUHpStZ1+Tpba4hFIdzADqcDEJ/5IPmnnLGrvEUEbICVX7T49NJfYKbkw8sB y2Srr4356JkBADZzfH07SSs8WjbyZUShGJ3gvQo+2zI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=bnS2tJY7qo50qEiLwCb/QML sIJYEYYwhxOb7klbT29T2eXijqD8OdQVbml9NA3oFsuRi+XAIKIthTcbtcUOc/lW T9xUgJEglrzlUJ4wT9CtG4D9KdxSAvNGfjR47LCxXAZiUB9mKX4TYY1rICuQ80Cs K2GDc0hR8qE4xmPnLvLw= Received: from h.hanazo.no (96.51-175-103.customer.lyse.net [51.175.103.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F05CAD788A; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 10:38:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24ED39F44881; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 18:38:33 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D4874F3A-C6F4-4FF9-8127-EBD22E1C501A"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 18:38:32 +0100 In-Reply-To: <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> Cc: Alexandre Petrescu , v6ops@ietf.org To: Brian E Carpenter References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 17:38:38 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D4874F3A-C6F4-4FF9-8127-EBD22E1C501A Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Brian, >>>> Take the simple case of a laptop with VMs. It has to handle the >>>> smallest common denominator. As long as networks treat everything >>>> that connects to it as hosts. Then either the host with VMs (aka >>>> router) has to pretend to be a host and do one of bridging or NAT. = Or >>>> with this proposal it can subnet the /64. >>>=20 >>> I am not sure I understand, but it is hard to subnet a /64 further = to interfaces that want their IIDs to be 64. Or you want these = interfaces to not run SLAAC? Do you have other means to automatically = configure their addresses? >>=20 >> I just enumerated the choices an operator / implementor have in this = case. >=20 > Yes, but only if /64 is no longer sacred. It's going to be tricky if = some > of the nodes on the /66 subnets assume SLAAC at /64. >=20 > So, it seems clear to me that while getting a /64 is better than = getting > a /128, it's even better to get a /56. Or even one of those 15 = trillion /48s. > We should make it clear that /64 is not even second-best. Just better > than /128. Indeed. I just don't think that's realistic to expect. The implementation has to accommodate the smallest common denominator. = At at the local coffee shop or at your favourite Enterprise you would be = very lucky if you got more than a /64 assigned to the host. Enterprises = often don't like you to extend their network, nor do the coffee shop = want to run multiple provisioning protocols. Cheers, Ole --Apple-Mail=_D4874F3A-C6F4-4FF9-8127-EBD22E1C501A Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYys2YAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92YzwQAIeDNnx/abUraq0FgINMlPVX dLtQJNCnaRXEW6M8AtO62iuXBQWtoh+Vxi+nRICJUIzpqhN1QwjxZy2POWVFVnNg ot/gSHe93DvCXT74X8q9sYDKuTqIm4MgW12DEWszeWw3W8Go/3MCqm0Kx1y01KWu l26DJL6Bxd9nvzq4dKN6WuoArYx42hsV+yN2HsRvPFir9qLGDw8o5aOrnfyRoxmj I7I+gDC/1HBS2hpKX+riog63Z/yQCsYb+p1CtPAfsrMDya61uFCPeCSiFeUNLkO4 YvA8GvDlLQNBDXaB6ztFGGFsCysEh9hovYGf8XjwYIDt/qV4rVN2rmPwv3riE9Hw ZBCYUiMe9DXwsnSYsn6vU/j0WMgQS5FPH2kuR2TJ1y7Fg97WZig9eZj6dGjCEpiJ HCa69wHj/mgFRXI9ne1BexTW5PqrN3BMhHi/ow4rFEOsPHWHse6HuGAOOPuBdUtI fW/QmlRvRcv0pFn94VBsLOwKJnXdsoV9vem2keODWB7kwuFokQM6+D2w46YXptul Vbj5LULgyaxd5A4gQmWtR3rUcHsPmLFm0uqxXlm2WrGQDez2zSmoTLedh+Y8gy3G s61R/ecqckF97defF59HQOZTKCdZwR/ge58+FTnXT/F/0uHUI5DSMSS5HTkSsdSl hAxQ8kULeiFrU8D7atOs =Au6Q -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D4874F3A-C6F4-4FF9-8127-EBD22E1C501A-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 12:02:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C84451299D7 for ; 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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:02:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-100-99-230-134.pao.corp.google.com ([100.99.230.134]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v4sm12019778pfb.36.2017.03.16.12.02.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:02:04 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: james woodyatt In-Reply-To: <603ce2a2-8f72-b228-9bb3-887cc63862c6@bogus.com> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:02:03 -0700 Cc: Tim Chown , Gert Doering , "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <24CC35C8-8522-49D7-9A25-F6838CCA8547@google.com> References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <603ce2a2-8f72-b228-9bb3-887cc63862c6@bogus.com> To: joel jaeggli X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 19:02:28 -0000 On Mar 16, 2017, at 02:25, joel jaeggli wrote: >=20 > then it should probably do PD, otherwise it gets precisely one /64 > subnet which might be enough but why constrain youself in that way. We=E2=80=99re not going to refuse to forward packets just because we = can=E2=80=99t get a prefix delegated from a customer edge router that = supports hosts but won=E2=80=99t delegate prefixes to them. To cope with = that scenario, we=E2=80=99re going to do one of two things: either NAT66 = (address+port amplification) or ND proxy for /64 sharing. And once we do = either one of those, we pretty much don=E2=80=99t need DHCP prefix = delegation. "Choose the form of the destructor!=E2=80=9D [1] --james woodyatt [1] = From nobody Thu Mar 16 12:52:54 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6F32D129A43 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:52:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.221 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.221 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j6bydKs2ZlGI for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:52:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3ABD41299E5 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:52:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id v2GJqmEl038316; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:52:48 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.238.222]) by phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id v2GJqgmn038244 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:52:42 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1263.5; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:52:41 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1263.000; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 12:52:41 -0700 From: "Templin, Fred L" To: Brian E Carpenter , "otroan@employees.org" , Alexandre Petrescu CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device Thread-Index: AQHSnnuEkzMg7zkajEGkWpemw02qfaGX4BIQ Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 19:52:41 +0000 Message-ID: <128b9a382fba4879a0417d8d335e3c74@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.136.248.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 19:52:53 -0000 Comment below: > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpente= r > Sent: Thursday, March 16, 2017 10:32 AM > To: otroan@employees.org; Alexandre Petrescu > Cc: v6ops@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-0= 2 - multiple prefixes per device >=20 > On 17/03/2017 04:27, otroan@employees.org wrote: > >>> Take the simple case of a laptop with VMs. It has to handle the > >>> smallest common denominator. As long as networks treat everything > >>> that connects to it as hosts. Then either the host with VMs (aka > >>> router) has to pretend to be a host and do one of bridging or NAT. Or > >>> with this proposal it can subnet the /64. > >> > >> I am not sure I understand, but it is hard to subnet a /64 further to = interfaces that want their IIDs to be 64. Or you want these > interfaces to not run SLAAC? Do you have other means to automatically co= nfigure their addresses? > > > > I just enumerated the choices an operator / implementor have in this ca= se. >=20 > Yes, but only if /64 is no longer sacred. It's going to be tricky if some > of the nodes on the /66 subnets assume SLAAC at /64. >=20 > So, it seems clear to me that while getting a /64 is better than getting > a /128, it's even better to get a /56. Or even one of those 15 trillion /= 48s. FWIW, ICAO expects that airplanes that use IPv6 will get a /56 (or shorter)= . Thanks - Fred > We should make it clear that /64 is not even second-best. Just better > than /128. >=20 > Brian >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Thu Mar 16 13:05:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E9E4129A43 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:05:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.322 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.322 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id B6qDqpOCA5dF for ; 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Received: from relay3.apple.com (relay3.apple.com [17.128.113.83]) by mail-in4.apple.com (Apple Secure Mail Relay) with SMTP id 50.8D.24168.FEFEAC85; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:05:03 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11973e12-62fd39a000005e68-48-58caefefabe0 Received: from nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01 (nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01.apple.com [17.151.62.64]) by relay3.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id F4.32.01494.EEFEAC85; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:05:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Received: from [17.226.23.37] (unknown [17.226.23.37]) by nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170210 64bit (built Feb 10 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0OMX00HZOBSENG40@nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01.apple.com>; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Sender: cheshire@apple.com From: Stuart Cheshire In-reply-to: <20170315034622.0EAB566D1CED@rock.dv.isc.org> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:05:56 -0700 Cc: David Schinazi , IPv6 Operations Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <73FB4EA3-98CE-47F7-AE3D-A010A321A906@apple.com> References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> <20170315034622.0EAB566D1CED@rock.dv.isc.org> To: Mark Andrews X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrJLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAYrPv+/akIgwdTxSyuvLjPYnH62F5m ByaPJUt+Mnk8ePyOOYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugStjVv8G5oJLYhX7flxgamCcJ9TFyMkhIWAi 8fb6bCYQW0hgL6PEiU0CCPHnzF2MXEDxY4wS7+fNYQVJ8AoISvyYfI+li5GDg1lAXWLKlFyI mvlMEhM6z7GD1AgLSEm8WvmZGaRGWMBA4uf9TJAwm4CWxIvPV9hAwpwCVhIrpvmBhFkEVCUm X1jEBmIzC3hJnD6zlgnC1pZ48u4C1FYbid+PN7NBrHrILDHrx3SwVSICChJtb18xQdwsK/Hk 5CIWkCIJgTVsEt++T2SZwCg8C8nZsxDOnoVkxwJG5lWMQrmJmTm6mXkmeokFBTmpesn5uZsY QWE93U5oB+OpVVaHGAU4GJV4eDMWnooQYk0sK67MPcQozcGiJM7Lv/hEhJBAemJJanZqakFq UXxRaU5q8SFGJg5OqQbGct7vDrM7jnco/34hY+W+tsBBaf+7R1KPqtKqK8PZt/sfZ3XQyth0 zmfmqZjF6w+fvt8lXyB0+slnhoDjD6U5LRom7cp1OOhTEx/F6c55du69XVzen602C013vzZ5 IcuLR2LFEtuLio7eTZGuX72lLp/Fe+2/X++cVBf9q7bbsmiHzdRZD81ZlFiKMxINtZiLihMB 9y8kXUwCAAA= X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFuphkeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42IRnG7noPv+/akIg3UN/BZXXtxnsTh9bC+z A5PHkiU/mTwePH7HHMAUxWWTkpqTWZZapG+XwJUxq38Dc8ElsYp9Py4wNTDOE+pi5OSQEDCR eHv9OXMXIxeHkMAxRon38+awgiR4BQQlfky+x9LFyMHBLKAuMWVKLkTNfCaJCZ3n2EFqhAWk JF6t/MwMUiMsYCDx834mSJhNQEvixecrbCBhTgEriRXT/EDCLAKqEpMvLGIDsZkFvCROn1nL BGFrSzx5dwFqq43E78eb2SBWPWSWmPVjOtgqEQEFiba3r5ggbpaVeHJyEcsERoFZSC6dhXDp LCRjFzAyr2IUKErNSaw01kssKMhJ1UvOz93ECArEhsLgHYx/llkdYhTgYFTi4c1YeCpCiDWx rLgy9xCjBAezkghv+AOgEG9KYmVValF+fFFpTmrxIcYqoGcmMkuJJucDoySvJN7QxMTAxNjY zNjY3MScKsJK4ry/tE5GCAmkJ5akZqemFqQWwSxn4uCUamDc/WnDXjXzhMXT9CMC8nU2v+Ca fNHpZv+6H9klBixrSz9d6U86+bzh8r6bWgeMnm3m6z7+7Kf6pXhHXW1r7VUHp+f+nOU0y/K9 WNpZzRaJZeUaTzZcOsZ2kG23xO6qed5/TNeKzaq786f0PIdlq+S1B+9tc79vOXa0yUHlw65T 6VnfBPJLZP4vVmIpzkg01GIuKk4EAB1Y0iCfAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:05:05 -0000 On 14 Mar 2017, at 20:46, Mark Andrews wrote: > So you now want Happy Eyeballs, which was designed to remove delays > of 10's - 100's of seconds before failover, to now override address > selection policies because the DNS's cache has one address type > present and not the other. That is what the 50ms timer achieves. > It takes ~200ms to get a answer from the other side of the world > with terrestial links. >=20 > Happy Eyeballs was never about having the absolute fastest time to > connect. It was about establishing a connection in a reasonable > amount of time in presence of network / server failures without > having ridiciously long failover delays. What an utterly absurd statement, to claim to speak for the authors = =E2=80=9CHappy Eyeballs=E2=80=9D, and tell us what our invention was or = was not designed to do. Back in 2007 and 2008 at Apple we started to get real-world bug reports = about web sites being unusable. These were major web sites, whose DNS = servers simply failed to answer AAAA queries, causing unusably long = timeouts before getaddrinfo() completed. I won=E2=80=99t name names, = because incredibly, some of these major web sites still have broken DNS = servers. Some fixed their DNS servers, only then later to break them = again. Without some workaround in place, any ISP attempting to turn on IPv6 = support would have caused client devices to start doing AAAA queries, = which time out, which make web sites unusable, which results in = complaints from customers, which results in the ISP turning off IPv6 = support. So it was vital that we work out how to allow an ISP to enable = IPv6 without enraging their customers. In July 2008 I gave a presentation at the Technical Plenary at IETF 72 = in Dublin about how Apple fixed this problem, recommending that others = do the same. If you haven=E2=80=99t watched the presentation, please do, = before telling us what our invention was designed to do. It=E2=80=99s = not very long. Dan Wing and Andrew Yiurtchenko decided to write up a subset of my = recommendations as RFC 6555. Inexplicably they decided to document the = asynchronous TCP connection racing, but not the asynchronous DNS query = racing, which is odd, given that, at the time, DNS failure to answer = AAAA queries was the dominant problem. Still, Dan Wing and Andrew Yiurtchenko wrote a good, if incomplete, RFC. Now, nine years later, Tommy Pauly and David Schinazi thought it was = about time we shared the remainder of the relevant information with the = community. Like it or not, this is in fact what Apple networking products do, and = have done for many years, and, regardless of what you think, it does = provide a better user experience than a synchronous blocking call to = getaddrinfo(). Stuart Cheshire From nobody Thu Mar 16 13:07:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5A6F129A4C for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:06:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tu1nMgf_GmgI for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-in23.apple.com (mail-out23.apple.com [17.171.2.33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 36C7C129A43 for ; 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Just calling getaddrinfo = should be enough. You might think just calling getaddrinfo() should be enough, but it=E2=80=99= s not. You are free to write a single-threaded C application that uses = synchronous blocking calls if you like, and it might work okay on = Ethernet, but it would give a horrible user-experience on a mobile = device with wireless networking (and for that reason your app would fail = Apple app review and it would not be allowed on the iPhone, for failing = to achieve even minimal usability standards). We=E2=80=99re not telling you how you should write your app. But we are publishing a specification that gives guidance about how to = write a good app, that gives a good user experience. (You=E2=80=99re not = forced to follow that guidance, and you don=E2=80=99t have to if you = don=E2=80=99t want to.) 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Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:09:03 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11973e13-20aae9a00000286e-32-58caf0df6929 Received: from jimbu (jimbu.apple.com [17.151.62.37]) by relay3.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 1C.54.01494.FD0FAC85; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:09:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Received: from [17.226.23.37] (unknown [17.226.23.37]) by jimbu.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170210 64bit (built Feb 10 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0OMX00EV5BZ3W140@jimbu.apple.com>; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:09:03 -0700 (PDT) Sender: cheshire@apple.com From: Stuart Cheshire In-reply-to: Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:09:57 -0700 Cc: David Schinazi , IPv6 Operations Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> To: =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrFLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAYrHv/w6kIg3WXjC0W7T7AZnH62F5m ByaPJUt+MnnsfXqMLYApissmJTUnsyy1SN8ugSvjyYqtTAVzJCr6F7cyNzC+FOpi5OSQEDCR aFjwj72LkYtDSGAvo8SWifNYYRJ/Z9xkhUgsY5S4fK8TLMErICjxY/I9li5GDg5mAXWJKVNy IWr+Mkocm9PJBlIjLCAl8WrlZ2aQGmEBA4mf9zNBwmwCWhIvPl8BK+EUCJZYuqmFEcRmEVCV ODVrGwuIzSzgJXH6zFomCFtb4sm7C1BrbSQ630yGuucfk8TVmY/BbhABOnTTAyeIm2Ulnpxc xAJSIyHQyCbx/fA9tgmMwrOQnD0L4exZSFYsYGRexSiUm5iZo5uZZ6qXWFCQk6qXnJ+7iREU 2NPthHcwnl5ldYhRgINRiYdXYP6pCCHWxLLiytxDjNIcLErivNyLT0QICaQnlqRmp6YWpBbF F5XmpBYfYmTi4JRqYFypl/qwu8T869JPy022m+4R3HnLyjz05ZlqDi0B13MVnwvkVQqtjVP/ zNrCaOdYZvp2wSXhFNZW15JvAWmzKp50FV/u2bdlWpPD8odMe46ENvi/v2sdecrfIGqah9pm lblB7Z+j3szOcvVx99R5fIJ1/u3qpEx7A7+J/98FRv1hP3zv9d4vKUosxRmJhlrMRcWJANZE Qc5NAgAA X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrLLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiON1OVff+h1MRBjtnaFgs2n2AzeL0sb3M DkweS5b8ZPLY+/QYWwBTFJdNSmpOZllqkb5dAlfGkxVbmQrmSFT0L25lbmB8KdTFyMkhIWAi 8XfGTdYuRi4OIYFljBKX73WygiR4BQQlfky+x9LFyMHBLKAuMWVKLkTNX0aJY3M62UBqhAWk JF6t/MwMUiMsYCDx834mSJhNQEvixecrYCWcAsESSze1MILYLAKqEqdmbWMBsZkFvCROn1nL BGFrSzx5dwFqrY1E55vJUPf8Y5K4OvMx2A0iQIdueuAEcbOsxJOTi1gmMArMQnLpLIRLZyGZ uoCReRWjQFFqTmKlsV5iQUFOql5yfu4mRlAgNhQG72D8s8zqEKMAB6MSD2/GwlMRQqyJZcWV uYcYJTiYlUR4wx8AhXhTEiurUovy44tKc1KLDzFKc7AoifP+0joZISSQnliSmp2aWpBaBJNl 4uCUamB042bVe2L4eGnUug9+b9P998gdeG29weLQTLdzjRsedWV87oy8GM4Vscx5arm1xsHP 72oumU1KumurdO0GR9A815o3JpOvqJW7bJ8zpUv//9FjfzLiUxg5NC3+qV8Jy5/hWiJ0JnuG /APJHUkarro6zi5iAY8N7A7+luV7snXyTYNN7wVmZq9VYinOSDTUYi4qTgQAYmWfnkACAAA= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:09:05 -0000 On 15 Mar 2017, at 17:00, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 = wrote: > I have one quick (and minor) question about the 01 version: in Section > 6 it states >=20 > If, during the course of connection establishment, the DNS answers > change either by adding resolved addresses, or removing previously > resolved addresses (for example, due to expiry of the TTL on that = DNS > record), the client should react based on its current progress. >=20 > Specifically what kind of scenario does this intend to imply? For > example, consider the following scenario: >=20 > 1. start a AAAA query for a destination name > 2. start an A query for the same name almost at the same time > 3. get a response to the AAAA query (set of IPv6 addresses) > 4. start establishing a connection for one of the IPv6 addresses > 5. get a response to the A query (set of IPv4 addresses) >=20 > At step 5, DNS resolution is fully completed. No, DNS resolution is not fully completed at step 5. In this = asynchronous model (as used in Apple products for many years) DNS = resolution is an ongoing process, which continues until the client has = successfully made a connection, and only stops when the client tells the = DNS engine that it can stop. Many web sites use DNS records with fairly short TTLs, which allows them = to update answers fairly rapidly. If a server is down or overloaded, they can remove that address from the = answer set, and substitute another. Thus the set of answers changes over = time. The Apple DNS APIs take this passage of time into account, and = notify clients as the set of answers changes, via =E2=80=9Cadd=E2=80=9D = and =E2=80=9Cremove=E2=80=9D events. If a client has been trying to = connect for some time, unsuccessfully, and then another IP address = becomes available, that address is added to the set of candidates, and = may be the one that actually works. You can easily see this for yourself, e.g., using www.google.com, or = www.microsoft.com. Here are two examples (using IPv4 only, for readability). You will see that at 12:47:10 the IP address 172.217.6.68 for Google was = withdrawn, and replaced by 216.58.194.164. At 12:47:16 the IP address 104.82.49.139 for Microsoft was withdrawn, = and replaced by 173.222.250.151. % dns-sd -G v4 www.google.com DATE: ---Thu 16 Mar 2017--- 12:47:02.843 ...STARTING... Timestamp A/R Flags if Hostname Address 12:47:02.845 Add 2 0 www.google.com. 172.217.6.68 12:47:10.854 Rmv 1 0 www.google.com. 172.217.6.68 12:47:10.855 Add 2 0 www.google.com. 216.58.194.164 % dns-sd -G v4 www.microsoft.com DATE: ---Thu 16 Mar 2017--- 12:46:41.253 ...STARTING... Timestamp A/R Flags if Hostname Address 12:46:41.256 Add 2 0 e1863.dspb.akamaiedge.net. 104.82.49.139 12:47:16.139 Rmv 1 0 e1863.dspb.akamaiedge.net. 104.82.49.139 12:47:16.139 Add 2 0 e1863.dspb.akamaiedge.net. 173.222.250.151 Stuart Cheshire From nobody Thu Mar 16 13:14:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 61C2F129A48 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:14:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bJIaD-hCAH2y for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:14:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 80EE5129A41 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:14:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5B891615C0 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:14:14 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 20AD56034B; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:14:14 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 1236B7152F; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:14:14 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:14:13 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: otroan@employees.org, Alexandre Petrescu , v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170316201413.GQ2367@Space.Net> References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:14:18 -0000 Hi, On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 06:31:43AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > So, it seems clear to me that while getting a /64 is better than getting > a /128, it's even better to get a /56. Or even one of those 15 trillion /48s. > We should make it clear that /64 is not even second-best. Just better > than /128. "give any *host* that connects a /48" (and dimension pools on WiFi hotspots etc. big enough to actually be able to do this) might actually be a good way to ensure IPv6 is going to run out faster than expected... IOW, be careful with the maths here. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Thu Mar 16 13:36:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EA1E129A62 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:35:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id u5uDIe2a3tU1 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B839129A5B for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:35:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2C0A349ACF; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:35:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB9CC160076; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:35:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C832B16007D; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:35:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id NMwkqhEGh7JH; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:35:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 292A0160076; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:35:54 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 02C9E66F0B9F; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 07:35:50 +1100 (EST) To: otroan@employees.org Cc: Joe Touch , v6ops@ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org> <61c421d9-8eba-7677-baa9-686d08576856@isi.edu> <037189F2-8BA5-4876-BCD7-1BFDB2A54D9D@employees.org> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:12:41 +0100." Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 07:35:49 +1100 Message-Id: <20170316203550.02C9E66F0B9F@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 20:35:59 -0000 In message , otroan@employe es.org writes: > > Joe, > > >>>> To talk about IPv4 for a second (I know, I know). It isn't only > firewall vendors. > >>>> In all the IPv4 sharing mechanisms IPv4 fragments is a royal pain to > deal with, and very costly. > >>>> And we can agree that those mechanisms are evil, > >>> Are you saying that IPv4 fragments are worse than IPv6? > >> Yes, but because the IPv4 header is now 28 bytes and the network is > forced to do routing on address + port. > > > > The network is never *forced* to route on anything beyond IP destination > > address. > > Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding is. > The network is _forced_ to route on address + port. To make the IPv4 > Internet continue to operate there is no choice other than sharing an > IPv4 address among more and more end users. Not really. You can still route on addresses only provide you have enough addresses that you can have a unique tuples for each from the inside of the NAT. The problem is that we are used to the case with homes where you only have a single source address to play with so that only leaves ports. For CGN's we have a pool of addresses to pick the NAT's source address from. Mark > Cheers, > Ole > > > > > >> That doesn't apply to IPv6. > > > > Perhaps we can take the clarification off-list; I'm still not > > understanding your point. In both cases, all but the first fragment lack > > a port. I *wish* the flow-ID were a sufficient replacement, but AFAICT > > there are still routers that rely on port inspection even when the flow > > ID is nonzero (incorrectly, IMO). > > > > ... > >> But, any time a packet / packet train has a significantly higher > processing cost than others, drop probability raises. > >> Regardless it is not within the bounds of physics to follow RFC791 > recommendations for reassembly. > >> At 100Mpps I don't have 15 seconds * 100M buffer space. ;-)Just accept > that IPv4 fragments are unlikely to have a happy life as a consequence of > IPv4 address run out. Tough luck. > >> > > That's why we relaxed the IPv4 ID uniqueness requirements to track > > expected reordering in RFC 6864, which updates RFC791. > > > > Joe -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Thu Mar 16 14:11:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9849E129A99 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:11:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, PP_MIME_FAKE_ASCII_TEXT=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id N5BG-UfiFFWA for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1830129A97 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:11:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A335E349919; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:11:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 924CA160076; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:11:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E40516007D; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:11:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id QQNYCyOfdLPL; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:11:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B0E5B160076; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:11:26 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45F5566F10C2; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 08:11:23 +1100 (EST) To: Stuart Cheshire Cc: David Schinazi , IPv6 Operations From: Mark Andrews References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> <20170315034622.0EAB566D1CED@rock.dv.isc.org> <73FB4EA3-98CE-47F7-AE3D-A010A321A906@apple.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:05:56 -0700." <73FB4EA3-98CE-47F7-AE3D-A010A321A906@apple.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 08:11:23 +1100 Message-Id: <20170316211123.45F5566F10C2@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:11:34 -0000 In message <73FB4EA3-98CE-47F7-AE3D-A010A321A906@apple.com>, Stuart Cheshire wr ites: > On 14 Mar 2017, at 20:46, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > So you now want Happy Eyeballs, which was designed to remove delays > > of 10's - 100's of seconds before failover, to now override address > > selection policies because the DNS's cache has one address type > > present and not the other. That is what the 50ms timer achieves. > > It takes ~200ms to get a answer from the other side of the world > > with terrestial links. > > > > Happy Eyeballs was never about having the absolute fastest time to > > connect. It was about establishing a connection in a reasonable > > amount of time in presence of network / server failures without > > having ridiciously long failover delays. > > What an utterly absurd statement, to claim to speak for the authors > “Happy Eyeballs”, and tell us what our invention was or was not designed > to do. Happy Eyeballs is working group consensus. It's a product of the working group. > Back in 2007 and 2008 at Apple we started to get real-world bug reports > about web sites being unusable. These were major web sites, whose DNS > servers simply failed to answer AAAA queries, causing unusably long > timeouts before getaddrinfo() completed. I won’t name names, because > incredibly, some of these major web sites still have broken DNS servers. > Some fixed their DNS servers, only then later to break them again. And that isn't a server failure? https://www.kb.cert.org/vuls/id/714121 was issued in 2003 about this. We have similar issues with TLSA today. > Without some workaround in place, any ISP attempting to turn on IPv6 > support would have caused client devices to start doing AAAA queries, > which time out, which make web sites unusable, which results in > complaints from customers, which results in the ISP turning off IPv6 > support. So it was vital that we work out how to allow an ISP to enable > IPv6 without enraging their customers. Actually most AAAA queries have always worked. The ones that failed were those directed at load balancers. > In July 2008 I gave a presentation at the Technical Plenary at IETF 72 in > Dublin about how Apple fixed this problem, recommending that others do > the same. If you haven’t watched the presentation, please do, before > telling us what our invention was designed to do. It’s not very long. > > > > Dan Wing and Andrew Yiurtchenko decided to write up a subset of my > recommendations as RFC 6555. Inexplicably they decided to document the > asynchronous TCP connection racing, but not the asynchronous DNS query > racing, which is odd, given that, at the time, DNS failure to answer AAAA > queries was the dominant problem. > > Still, Dan Wing and Andrew Yiurtchenko wrote a good, if incomplete, RFC. Which is Happy Eyeballs. Just because HE isn't what Apple experimented with doesn't make my statement was wrong. Apple has never implemented HE. It's implemented something that is HE like but not HE. Apple actually got complaints about that. A bit like the load balancers implemented something that was like a DNS server but wasn't actually a DNS server. They implements a A record server and failed to handle all the other types as required by RFC 1034. > Now, nine years later, Tommy Pauly and David Schinazi thought it was > about time we shared the remainder of the relevant information with the > community. And we are pushing back because it goes too far. > Like it or not, this is in fact what Apple networking products do, and > have done for many years, and, regardless of what you think, it does > provide a better user experience than a synchronous blocking call to > getaddrinfo(). > > Stuart Cheshire -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Thu Mar 16 14:41:26 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E3BF129AB6 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:41:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KN1Ki3Dr5Bwc for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D4951129A67 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 16 Mar 2017 21:41:23 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 469C2D788D; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:41:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=2zPjgX3kBA2Y/+Fy0xZZ+HMaZ9g=; b= o+MewbBBS5g3PUxxWGfgTszPWdjgbUM2dq9WCxY8SsNKq98tjfpaJnBpp4XGxY70 BAgHeGr0W/X6m5OlQRU8uf9ctaiRmaekX6x6iySN7P96JhNgYtyxGczD8IPbN9a6 WT3zSfLnv4v5u0ivhZbrqevdB2EYJWytcyuPdAQATh4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=gFaX6i/P3VGHr0JYRE3JovP L8xqsOCvbf/q3ctHGIQfkiZ3sKKIvBQgYIkxnLewGPIIvqP1WynwjjNQTRvTvyrt bYOcqPlQ01VdZjOfzvuaiE2ewEhjlRbS23RjYetMTK+zlE1JQHEPgInWmg05sk7C 7dlv8hMaxAVO+CuX09RM= Received: from h.hanazo.no (96.51-175-103.customer.lyse.net [51.175.103.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 1A174D788A; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 14:41:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 896DB9F89D50; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 22:41:21 +0100 (CET) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <1E2E4611-F38C-4BA9-A7CA-0E6A2F256A00@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E50428CF-3138-4003-95C0-A1FC49E26C31"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 22:41:20 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20170316203550.02C9E66F0B9F@rock.dv.isc.org> Cc: Joe Touch , v6ops@ietf.org To: Mark Andrews References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org> <61c421d9-8eba-7677-baa9-686d08576856@isi.edu> <037189F2-8BA5-4876-BCD7-1BFDB2A54D9D@employees.org> <20170316203550.02C9E66F0B9F@rock.dv.isc.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 21:41:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E50428CF-3138-4003-95C0-A1FC49E26C31 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mark, >> Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding is. >> The network is _forced_ to route on address + port. To make the IPv4 >> Internet continue to operate there is no choice other than sharing an >> IPv4 address among more and more end users. > > Not really. You can still route on addresses only provide you have > enough addresses that you can have a unique tuples for > each from the inside of the NAT. The problem is that we > are used to the case with homes where you only have a single source > address to play with so that only leaves ports. For CGN's we have > a pool of addresses to pick the NAT's source address from. Not doing CGN. Stateless forwarding. RFC7596/97,99. Ole --Apple-Mail=_E50428CF-3138-4003-95C0-A1FC49E26C31 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJYywaBAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92JAsP/RchxGWkRA8cYMmfGDxeTUwO Vc71OUuXwTlnEXl2Yqn5SUajupc/3BPESTTJp0gg1piFx3eK5VAVRXrXDfE2aiQc 7LlOCTy0J9IP0PNqPFNhcs5zVKoxhtHxcPqlNzpzUVWZ06jKT3fnHc/yBRQa2VxZ 1RsI7rYDtiJXHipSQusbd33iAl2YTI2h3UV/5uTmq18sLeLgn+z/gStd4daiSbHS ZVFPXn56MmaRalZgqwb3JFSMp7xWngEKCOylejVWhS/UUCAKgol9OqMSNVAKaFRf 5YsJc6z8mWPwQ9W0ICbQcufVERKIfRj3lpZwmK1QTuG3SFxbSQU3SENyqNI6+V/e gBiKnXqHHaVIenC6Qzr6kCrWeVAVWKZOizXBUiWxrbuO7TfU0B6P45gIZor75Vru 0vPGLrMA2BZGFIygzOp/04emPYGwD+HZpRYmHXY4EJUJtxZ4XSL08tBE/MVHNV9F zVa0IvVdEJHaF5ofRLEtsod9hz4MMYgFshm2NMIRIF3Q1B9gw2y+geaUwlp9jvlz 1SPIlWTLObwecG/XomhkovhSxUAv49l+LtVWQ2cyEl13O0J+u+q2XmZ1Ks3Mg9YI qRQk3gnuiQAadXMiIlYFNdSV2wqo75+5osXxmXGmkxTBqsv7ClQwxOjJcn1Kl9Y7 0iF5y22u8JBvAgBFStEg =fe5/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_E50428CF-3138-4003-95C0-A1FC49E26C31-- From nobody Thu Mar 16 15:43:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E78A3129B17 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:43:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id c4I78SFU_7vG for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x22f.google.com (mail-it0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B904129B13 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:43:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id m27so6160071iti.1 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:43:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=SAMkuMdiqIGNcz3/nUCdIwcjJpVq9PbvxCjEq+zG348=; b=a14Mad6dV3aGEssOKgxXu8LgakZS1pp1jO/Ue3KJoAHXMFiAy8bTozNAGbIEzPkoTP fZA/HqsDkr5D1vrUo5f60UjbVos/bHo9FFrei+DrLlds8WhrL/Eu+mvqPXpNgy7VErwz VBzeVADaHe44SCEvzx9w/usAznJq7J++j2XsPjXxm06jpjqPLmzGkWKduC34RGYa8JBT X/z65frHa9lQRa/9bUZ8K8tMEPEZiBBx6q07m5+7ioKSazi8VLIfj3WT81qTA6vpqMIe 6kgBATeAoV4czg630yKnobjJ17IrXjrzaRDdTiiZ4cqvqWEFkHePGzr0TQYViQoTXuWv A66w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=SAMkuMdiqIGNcz3/nUCdIwcjJpVq9PbvxCjEq+zG348=; b=gKxSSb2wBSatca1RGvkpZ/WVKpA2qLBKm2/d4q803/2jGf6vGfFQ/1jQ7JG2AX0Z+8 DES1c+OLyuBBopgz5nU57Jpq0smxZe0nG5knHhNqOY+tLCXcyv5aRPtPOhm+Xfdn3d/h ucQlR9Dnd1g5ETzOTK+grx99TmAsdhqdbmP9GlnnCfuS1yWQZb4cn8eQPYwPabDEDFxo wmXndLJPsZCxLupbW1X6GcCZZyG3+vqLwxXuVM8yCLUw6QdblzHgJMzZ+1qolzu6sywV oEFWRP3/fzV91era0/1T86I92fhkDEG43a1BA4epo0zPeEU3tbqATAP2vPOiJNGf0q21 UXOA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H18EqiEpTrpiIHLcyYR1XlHei5euukFsvx/lhLyVJ9xqUf+a5n2K6cFuW6MFoGA6A== X-Received: by 10.36.82.22 with SMTP id d22mr218210itb.0.1489704217904; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:43:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.11.95] (50-76-68-137-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.76.68.137]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i89sm3599553ioo.5.2017.03.16.15.43.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 15:43:37 -0700 (PDT) To: Gert Doering References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> <20170316201413.GQ2367@Space.Net> Cc: otroan@employees.org, Alexandre Petrescu , v6ops@ietf.org From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <212f8258-a025-325e-badc-e7bdcc2bf5f7@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:43:47 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170316201413.GQ2367@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 22:43:40 -0000 On 17/03/2017 09:14, Gert Doering wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 06:31:43AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> So, it seems clear to me that while getting a /64 is better than getting >> a /128, it's even better to get a /56. Or even one of those 15 trillion /48s. >> We should make it clear that /64 is not even second-best. Just better >> than /128. > > "give any *host* that connects a /48" (and dimension pools on WiFi > hotspots etc. big enough to actually be able to do this) might actually > be a good way to ensure IPv6 is going to run out faster than expected... > > IOW, be careful with the maths here. Yes, one always needs cautious allocation policies. But still... /64 is not enough in the general case, with today's link-layer media and today's IPv6 stacks. (We can have the argument about tomorrow some other time. :-) Brian Brian From nobody Thu Mar 16 16:28:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FAEA129A9B for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:28:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bC5MzFgrmONd for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [199.6.1.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84FA9129AC2 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3415824AE22; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:26:38 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A3FC8160080; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:26:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8712316007E; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:26:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id YScY1qlPoidt; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:26:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0969F160076; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:26:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77ADD66F1D4A; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 10:26:33 +1100 (EST) To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Gert Doering , v6ops@ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> <20170316201413.GQ2367@Space.Net> <212f8258-a025-325e-badc-e7bdcc2bf5f7@gmail.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:43:47 +1300." <212f8258-a025-325e-badc-e7bdcc2bf5f7@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 10:26:33 +1100 Message-Id: <20170316232633.77ADD66F1D4A@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:28:00 -0000 In message <212f8258-a025-325e-badc-e7bdcc2bf5f7@gmail.com>, Brian E Carpenter writes: > On 17/03/2017 09:14, Gert Doering wrote: > > Hi, > > > > On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 06:31:43AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >> So, it seems clear to me that while getting a /64 is better than getting > >> a /128, it's even better to get a /56. Or even one of those 15 trillion /4 > 8s. > >> We should make it clear that /64 is not even second-best. Just better > >> than /128. > > > > "give any *host* that connects a /48" (and dimension pools on WiFi > > hotspots etc. big enough to actually be able to do this) might actually > > be a good way to ensure IPv6 is going to run out faster than expected... > > > > IOW, be careful with the maths here. > > Yes, one always needs cautious allocation policies. But still... /64 > is not enough in the general case, with today's link-layer media > and today's IPv6 stacks. (We can have the argument about tomorrow > some other time. :-) And PD allows for a node to do multiple PD requests. Each router doesn't need a pool of prefixes to answer PD requests from. It can do a upstream request to full fill the downstream request on demand. A coffee shop is a site or part of a site. That site should have a /48 with 65536 /64 subnets to further allocate. Hosts draw from that pool. Yes, that does mean that there are lots of intra site routing entries for /64's rather than for shorter prefix lengths. That however shouldn't matter because it is not a excessive number for even the most inexpensive router to handle and they are summaried as a /48 in the global routing table. Even with a few of /48 pools from different ISPs it still isn't excessive. When a iPhone requests a PD over its cellular interface it is acting as a border router. When it requests a PD over its WiFi interface (because some app wants lots of addresses or to connect the BT to the WiFi) it is acting as a interior router. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Thu Mar 16 16:40:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70B13129A9B for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:40:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zi-qXCbM-FAJ for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.pao1.isc.org (mx.pao1.isc.org [IPv6:2001:4f8:0:2::2b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 28586129AC2 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 16:40:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.pao1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9CCDB349412; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:40:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F63C16007E; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:40:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6E508160080; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:40:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id egQeBdg1DPzB; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:40:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (c27-253-115-14.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au [27.253.115.14]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 11D7216007E; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:40:09 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3DCA166F1F72; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 10:40:05 +1100 (EST) To: otroan@employees.org Cc: Joe Touch , v6ops@ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org> <61c421d9-8eba-7677-baa9-686d08576856@isi.edu> <037189F2-8BA5-4876-BCD7-1BFDB2A54D9D@employees.org> <20170316203550.02C9E66F0B9F@rock.dv.isc.org> <1E2E4611-F38C-4BA9-A7CA-0E6A2F256A00@employees.org> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Mar 2017 22:41:20 +0100." <1E2E4611-F38C-4BA9-A7CA-0E6A2F256A00@employees.org> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 10:40:05 +1100 Message-Id: <20170316234005.3DCA166F1F72@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 23:40:12 -0000 In message <1E2E4611-F38C-4BA9-A7CA-0E6A2F256A00@employees.org>, otroan@employe es.org writes: > > Mark, > > >> Perhaps this is where the misunderstanding is. > >> The network is _forced_ to route on address + port. To make the IPv4 > >> Internet continue to operate there is no choice other than sharing an > >> IPv4 address among more and more end users. > > > > Not really. You can still route on addresses only provide you have > > enough addresses that you can have a unique tuples for > > each from the inside of the NAT. The problem is that we > > are used to the case with homes where you only have a single source > > address to play with so that only leaves ports. For CGN's we have > > a pool of addresses to pick the NAT's source address from. > > Not doing CGN. Stateless forwarding. RFC7596/97,99. > > Ole An engineering trade off. tuple state vs needing to see ports. In both cases its keeping a protocol alive that should have died in 1995 because the world had effectively run out of IPv4 addresses. Mark -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Thu Mar 16 22:17:34 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3666E12702E for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 22:17:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6ujArku3CvlZ for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 22:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2D7D0126E01 for ; Thu, 16 Mar 2017 22:17:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.28] (cpe-172-250-240-132.socal.res.rr.com [172.250.240.132]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2H5H0Gh018429 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 16 Mar 2017 22:17:01 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Joe Touch X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14D27) In-Reply-To: <39A15217-1802-4CE0-8303-1981D399A6A7@employees.org> Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2017 22:17:00 -0700 Cc: Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <39A15217-1802-4CE0-8303-1981D399A6A7@employees.org> To: otroan@employees.org X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 05:17:32 -0000 > On Mar 16, 2017, at 2:45 AM, otroan@employees.org wrote: >=20 > My laptop acts as a router when the hypervisor running on bare metal route= s traffic between the physical NICs and a set of VMs and containers. Sometimes as an L2 switch. The key is whether the interfaces are on differen= t subnets, and a test is whether their hip counts decrement. If so, it's act= ing as a router for that traffic. =20 Joe= From nobody Fri Mar 17 03:13:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 444C2129A76 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 03:13:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wZKoDGZNsxIa for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 03:13:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 447EA129A83 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 03:13:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id C72AB618BA for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:13:06 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 882486034B; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:13:06 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 772F033A18; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:13:06 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:13:06 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Mark Andrews Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Gert Doering , v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170317101306.GT2367@Space.Net> References: <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> <20170316201413.GQ2367@Space.Net> <212f8258-a025-325e-badc-e7bdcc2bf5f7@gmail.com> <20170316232633.77ADD66F1D4A@rock.dv.isc.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="Ub0MCZ5J9UXWVvV5" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20170316232633.77ADD66F1D4A@rock.dv.isc.org> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 10:13:12 -0000 --Ub0MCZ5J9UXWVvV5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 10:26:33AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote: > >=20 > > Yes, one always needs cautious allocation policies. But still... /64 > > is not enough in the general case, with today's link-layer media > > and today's IPv6 stacks. (We can have the argument about tomorrow > > some other time. :-) >=20 > And PD allows for a node to do multiple PD requests. Each router > doesn't need a pool of prefixes to answer PD requests from. It can > do a upstream request to full fill the downstream request on demand. Technically, it could. Administratively, I'm going to believe that when I see it - like, in a big enterprise network, individual /64s being routed randomly across the place because a wifi hotspot needed another prefix to hand out. > A coffee shop is a site or part of a site. That site should have > a /48 with 65536 /64 subnets to further allocate. Hosts draw from > that pool. Yes, that does mean that there are lots of intra site > routing entries for /64's rather than for shorter prefix lengths. > That however shouldn't matter because it is not a excessive number > for even the most inexpensive router to handle and they are summaried > as a /48 in the global routing table. Even with a few of /48 pools > from different ISPs it still isn't excessive. A coffee shop has a /48 today (or a /56, given that the RIR policies where changed based on extrapolations that a /48 for each SoHo customer connection might not be sustainable). If we suggest that hosts should "get a /48", and there a a number of=20 customers in that coffee shop, then a /48-per-site is not going to be enough. But seriously: how many visitors of said coffee shop would need more than a /64? Yes, I've heard about the laptop with the VMs running, in multiple hierarchical virtual networks, and such. How many of those laptops exist? 100, 1000? This is totally niche. =20 Normal users want their browsing, e-mail and corporate VPN to work. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --Ub0MCZ5J9UXWVvV5 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAljLtq8ACgkQ31bAZeTO f8UxHhAArpz04ZNgSGVoh/8vumraLsf9O7VN0XxzcSkNjc5cQVIWcNDuR02uC7Mp SRQzewflcuHfFtgB76FQ9G3Ijzca6fI2TN/6t9NJIz5dd+dYYZ/Zc7pe1lkbjsYy u2UOeInYCTusbmz+/cOruFvQXoER0nuOy6Jm51l7G2vNjrtF0A0nA4SO9keB/ucC WQDEKCQSPC7YzXvaK6uVTr9zXz7+G7D30T6mzt28Bv0WQmoRfBt0OeaB1Fos1RHU hPy67913LRjo7ZPnBnhl0OXr6ydl52t+ah3mCGX9UFv9n+XZb6UQIKAfwy6W/NO0 /pgQJzkh0cS+b6IUiOZo9/rqQMlNHtZ13FnX5ZqZ/QuL6V/AUn2HqhAz+k1DeWTX VwZf2/HUhFf8P9b4DOUjrNgQtCsO/MJ3MNXTS1byUhAh8aTth5KkFAuNxcpNOfOn gEidsHigu9L80vjpWCz2HHHNNbjXGxgJs4iW7VVwJSDdhlbepzuwex3LLdoe4nxa I1goKxH3r5NPN2TkCdXjdr3Cm///mhQr62JFB+cfcbhufE/XIlu3al2npIbZwHqG udVs1+MvNtN2vKDYv1qs5oExbHHekA88SDYBvj1Z26IfKJJiBjrqF7no9a8MKhiQ ZZooKVSO+HQFfha6ZS6keqv+W2k6P+WKAG0hywOa4Q/jEHTYfUU= =v0lt -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Ub0MCZ5J9UXWVvV5-- From nobody Fri Mar 17 03:45:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D1C6012741D for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 03:45:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p6BBY8leWaVw for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 03:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9EF4C1241FC for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 03:45:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #127) id m1copNR-0000GrC; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:44:57 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Mar 2017 18:38:32 +0100 ." Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:44:52 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 10:45:05 -0000 >Indeed. I just don't think that's realistic to expect. >The implementation has to accommodate the smallest common denominator. = >At at the local coffee shop or at your favourite Enterprise you would be = >very lucky if you got more than a /64 assigned to the host. Enterprises = >often don't like you to extend their network, nor do the coffee shop = >want to run multiple provisioning protocols. Assuming that homenet takes of, then we can assume the local coffee shop to be a homenet. Small companies probably just a get consumer internet connection, set up a consumer CPE and that's it. So if we make sure that what we want works in a homenet environment, then it is likely going to work in losts of other contexts as well. For the enterprise, some organisations seems to be set on making sure that nobody can do any useful work. Obviously, it will be hard to make standard for that type of environment. Assuming the enterprise wants to support a 'desk area network' then one way forward is to recognize each desk network as a separate homenet. That's relatively easy to spec. On other hand, I can see a desire to have the enterprise network infrastructure be in control, with end user devices providing local connectivity. In that case probably all devices with routing functionality would have to be DHCP relay agents (or something similar) to allow central infrastructure to see what is going on. From nobody Fri Mar 17 03:49:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36B14127275 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 03:49:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Oxj1FES59LPu for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 03:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CDF91129C0C for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 03:49:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net ([::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #127) id m1copRU-0000HFC; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:49:08 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:07:50 -0700 ." Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:49:06 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 10:49:15 -0000 > Were not telling you how you should write your app. > > But we are publishing a specification that gives guidance about > how to write a good app, that gives a good user experience. (Youre > not forced to follow that guidance, and you dont have to if you > dont want to.) If you proposed an informational RFC published through the ISE 'This how we do Happy Eyeballs at Apple' then it would be perfectly fine with me. However, this is proposed as a BCP, which has the same status as standard. So if you write a BCP with MUSTs, etc. then you are telling people how they should write their apps. That the purpose of a BCP. From nobody Fri Mar 17 04:51:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A98C6126DEE for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 04:51:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5qrS6lCXHoMX for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 04:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5FCDC126C22 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 04:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2HBp3AC030207; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:51:03 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id C2FD2204247; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:51:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9B20202E66; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:51:03 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2HBp36i032003; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:51:03 +0100 To: otroan@employees.org, Brian E Carpenter References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <6765b1fb-9fca-f434-0975-4c7637a15e49@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:50:55 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:51:09 -0000 Le 16/03/2017 18:38, otroan@employees.org a crit : [...] > At at the local coffee shop or at your favourite Enterprise you would > be very lucky if you got more than a /64 assigned to the host. Why? > Enterprises often don't like you to extend their network, nor do the > coffee shop want to run multiple provisioning protocols. Why dont they want to run multiple provisioning protocols? Does the hotel like to ask each time a customer how many Devices the customer has? Isnt that too heavy to manage? Alex > > Cheers, Ole > From nobody Fri Mar 17 05:05:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CE7121286CA for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 05:05:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PUux5tPgxnEk for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 05:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33FD41286B1 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 05:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2HC5iMQ040778 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 13:05:44 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 40A62202E74 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 13:05:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 37B7D202E60 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 13:05:44 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2HC5hUQ011876 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 13:05:44 +0100 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> <20170316201413.GQ2367@Space.Net> <212f8258-a025-325e-badc-e7bdcc2bf5f7@gmail.com> <20170316232633.77ADD66F1D4A@rock.dv.isc.org> <20170317101306.GT2367@Space.Net> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <294476e5-0b53-c29d-0ddc-ca83ae84b5d7@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 13:05:35 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170317101306.GT2367@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 12:05:48 -0000 Le 17/03/2017 11:13, Gert Doering a crit : > Hi, > > On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 10:26:33AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote: >>> >>> Yes, one always needs cautious allocation policies. But still... >>> /64 is not enough in the general case, with today's link-layer >>> media and today's IPv6 stacks. (We can have the argument about >>> tomorrow some other time. :-) >> >> And PD allows for a node to do multiple PD requests. Each router >> doesn't need a pool of prefixes to answer PD requests from. It can >> do a upstream request to full fill the downstream request on >> demand. > > Technically, it could. Administratively, I'm going to believe that > when I see it - like, in a big enterprise network, individual /64s > being routed randomly across the place because a wifi hotspot needed > another prefix to hand out. > >> A coffee shop is a site or part of a site. That site should have >> a /48 with 65536 /64 subnets to further allocate. Hosts draw from >> that pool. Yes, that does mean that there are lots of intra site >> routing entries for /64's rather than for shorter prefix lengths. >> That however shouldn't matter because it is not a excessive number >> for even the most inexpensive router to handle and they are >> summaried as a /48 in the global routing table. Even with a few >> of /48 pools from different ISPs it still isn't excessive. > > A coffee shop has a /48 today (or a /56, given that the RIR policies > where changed based on extrapolations that a /48 for each SoHo > customer connection might not be sustainable). > > If we suggest that hosts should "get a /48", and there a a number of > customers in that coffee shop, then a /48-per-site is not going to be > enough. > > But seriously: how many visitors of said coffee shop would need more > than a /64? Many visitors use smartphone-smartwatch combinations. > Yes, I've heard about the laptop with the VMs running, Smartphones run VMs too, not only laptops. > in multiple hierarchical virtual networks, and such. How many of > those laptops exist? 100, 1000? This is totally niche. Even for a 100-sized niche, one needs to plan for 100 times multiple /64 prefixes per unit. Even for a 100-sized niche, one can't plan to use a single /64 per unit. > Normal users want their browsing, e-mail and corporate VPN to work. New ways dont do any browsing, email or corporate VPN. They do purpose-specific messaging and project management apps. Often they neeed simultaneity between multiple independent such apps - easier with VMs. Alex > > Gert Doering -- NetMaster > > > > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Fri Mar 17 06:06:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DF21D1289B5 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 06:06:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rYyflF2128Lq for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 06:06:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 00AB6128896 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 06:06:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A7E76034B for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:06:31 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48D1E600EA; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:06:31 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 45C9970090; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:06:31 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:06:31 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170317130631.GY2367@Space.Net> References: <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> <20170316201413.GQ2367@Space.Net> <212f8258-a025-325e-badc-e7bdcc2bf5f7@gmail.com> <20170316232633.77ADD66F1D4A@rock.dv.isc.org> <20170317101306.GT2367@Space.Net> <294476e5-0b53-c29d-0ddc-ca83ae84b5d7@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <294476e5-0b53-c29d-0ddc-ca83ae84b5d7@gmail.com> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 13:06:34 -0000 Hi, On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 01:05:35PM +0100, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > > But seriously: how many visitors of said coffee shop would need more > > than a /64? > Many visitors use smartphone-smartwatch combinations. Those do not need multiple *networks*. > > Yes, I've heard about the laptop with the VMs running, > Smartphones run VMs too, not only laptops. Really? So these need multiple *networks* to number the VMs? > > in multiple hierarchical virtual networks, and such. How many of > > those laptops exist? 100, 1000? This is totally niche. > > Even for a 100-sized niche, one needs to plan for 100 times multiple /64 > prefixes per unit. > > Even for a 100-sized niche, one can't plan to use a single /64 per unit. "100 world wide", and we should not engineer for those. They will find ways to make their stuff work, grumbling about stupid protocols and everything. > > Normal users want their browsing, e-mail and corporate VPN to work. > > New ways dont do any browsing, email or corporate VPN. They do > purpose-specific messaging and project management apps. Often they > neeed simultaneity between multiple independent such apps - easier with VMs. All that is "talk to internet from clients", and a whole /64 per device would be extremely plenty for that. You need more than a /64 if you have routed topologies, which you just do not *have* inside your smartwatch. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Fri Mar 17 07:16:01 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 071DA12943B for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 07:15:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ob8Mj61C9sst for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 07:15:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEA4712944A for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 07:15:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2HEFpH3015240; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 15:15:51 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 2AA8A2096BC; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 15:15:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 19BB12096B0; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 15:15:51 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2HEFoPX009055; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 15:15:50 +0100 To: Gert Doering References: <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> <20170316201413.GQ2367@Space.Net> <212f8258-a025-325e-badc-e7bdcc2bf5f7@gmail.com> <20170316232633.77ADD66F1D4A@rock.dv.isc.org> <20170317101306.GT2367@Space.Net> <294476e5-0b53-c29d-0ddc-ca83ae84b5d7@gmail.com> <20170317130631.GY2367@Space.Net> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 15:15:42 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170317130631.GY2367@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:15:54 -0000 Le 17/03/2017 14:06, Gert Doering a crit : > Hi, > > On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 01:05:35PM +0100, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >>> But seriously: how many visitors of said coffee shop would need >>> more than a /64? >> Many visitors use smartphone-smartwatch combinations. > > Those do not need multiple *networks*. A smatphone-smartwatch combination needs one more subnet than the /64 dedicated to the smartphone by the cellular link. >>> Yes, I've heard about the laptop with the VMs running, >> Smartphones run VMs too, not only laptops. > > Really? So these need multiple *networks* to number the VMs? It depends on the number of VMs. They are very easy to create, so potentially numerous. >>> in multiple hierarchical virtual networks, and such. How many >>> of those laptops exist? 100, 1000? This is totally niche. >> >> Even for a 100-sized niche, one needs to plan for 100 times >> multiple /64 prefixes per unit. >> >> Even for a 100-sized niche, one can't plan to use a single /64 per >> unit. > > "100 world wide", and we should not engineer for those. They will > find ways to make their stuff work, grumbling about stupid protocols > and everything. The difference is whether they want something to survive the next development cycle, be used elsewhere, etc. >>> Normal users want their browsing, e-mail and corporate VPN to >>> work. >> >> New ways dont do any browsing, email or corporate VPN. They do >> purpose-specific messaging and project management apps. Often they >> neeed simultaneity between multiple independent such apps - easier >> with VMs. > > All that is "talk to internet from clients", and a whole /64 per > device would be extremely plenty for that. This "talk to internet from clients" exclusive perspective makes remote software update and other low-latency "ring" notifications impossible, or simply too CPU-consuming. > You need more than a /64 if you have routed topologies, which you > just do not *have* inside your smartwatch. I didnt mean inside the smartwatch. I meant the smartphone does route, and the smartphone-smartwatch forms a subnet that needs a /64 for itself (in addition to the /64 presumably allocated to the smartphone). Alex > > Gert Doering -- NetMaster > From nobody Fri Mar 17 07:16:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F33E12944D for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 07:16:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0fCOwth0GSi8 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 07:16:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F279D129436 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 07:16:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72B8D61857 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 15:16:31 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DB24B600EA; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 15:16:30 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id CCBD3702B7; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 15:16:30 +0100 (CET) Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 15:16:30 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: Gert Doering , v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170317141630.GZ2367@Space.Net> References: <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> <20170316201413.GQ2367@Space.Net> <212f8258-a025-325e-badc-e7bdcc2bf5f7@gmail.com> <20170316232633.77ADD66F1D4A@rock.dv.isc.org> <20170317101306.GT2367@Space.Net> <294476e5-0b53-c29d-0ddc-ca83ae84b5d7@gmail.com> <20170317130631.GY2367@Space.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1GxunsMHVEZWCd/O" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:16:42 -0000 --1GxunsMHVEZWCd/O Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 03:15:42PM +0100, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > Le 17/03/2017 =E0 14:06, Gert Doering a =E9crit : > > On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 01:05:35PM +0100, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > >>> But seriously: how many visitors of said coffee shop would need > >>> more than a /64? > >> Many visitors use smartphone-smartwatch combinations. > > > > Those do not need multiple *networks*. >=20 > A smatphone-smartwatch combination needs one more subnet than the /64 > dedicated to the smartphone by the cellular link. no. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --1GxunsMHVEZWCd/O Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAljL77sACgkQ31bAZeTO f8WjAQ/+I88IYjkCsfo4xC9C248OZMo+X/DsDXTAl+foUDo2GhbNNRv3/CsahiUe srA9/5Vmjn7NOYA8GIaIOSvzBSP3hokfmjLS9NNYv3sH38GPjbxw/SeF/JHTVdLY dw2AINY9u21nRj0flpgYelyCxT79Q8Pyr2+KU60vZZmbmARE6CQMuUtaQBNepHOj sstMMsjtYBf1JJwAq5UJ9qqsSdXqdY8PCoifLZM/8rkAAXcWP/Vp4zBBbNcGTsHy eoO4u3OJue23icq03+pBaQZ+fHMDu3XP8jkPnqTLSilsyFesK86QHDwP6uxV/nuj 0zca/3TjcYbCgYdnbmvTf4Hra6uQ6Z/ndp3S7GctWzxbq+bwMjKC1lXCq6gLwSjo R9/kw0RufnuUAc/AC1lVDO8UBHyakezX3Dz1RLvdqFy5+lCgXxYiNObfIDXQ6ill 2eJdkhQbdGUpn+eTB9hxIyqZ1ZZftXd0E6KRg+tzXrS9MRAa6nwViwyQvzQ6nwS9 vw2hoBLTR1hHa34iIqFOlWxXpLDKeU0KBixtWmNsbq2/4VoOg0sKWeHPkb9JQU8Z Rj2hhcU6iw1efChFdygVivN5eMrN285bnzt5sZEhP/eLbD8uautLLUM2zIkwySH8 2zd+pQW43Zl++Hu1QTBsAxnxyX3wxDs8AG8nZR91sYM9ElK+xts= =qrxQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1GxunsMHVEZWCd/O-- From nobody Fri Mar 17 09:22:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FBEA1294E6 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 09:22:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id igbCJHhZqa1M for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 09:22:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5A0B21294D7 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 09:22:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from [192.168.1.55] (lan.furness.net [84.9.59.220]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id BA66C1BC37 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:23:02 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: <56FF0877-9B4E-49DA-8DE6-F1752BC8E6DD@employees.org> Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:22:41 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <929F0119-C5B9-4FF3-AAF3-EE63010C3472@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <20170314224004.1F36366CA1F7@rock.dv.isc.org> <335ED116-0429-45F2-8C83-1C772D141073@employees.org> <61c421d9-8eba-7677-baa9-686d08576856@isi.edu> <037189F2-8BA5-4876-BCD7-1BFDB2A54D9D@employees.org> <812101C4-6894-46DF-90B7-99B77E709E24@delong.com> <56FF0877-9B4E-49DA-8DE6-F1752BC8E6DD@employees.org> To: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] KSK Rollover and IPv6 Fragmentation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:22:50 -0000 otroan@employees.org wrote: >> The network is not forced to route on address + port. >>=20 >> Some operators choose to continue to support a protocol that should = have been long since deprecated rather than implementing IPv6. The = consequence of that choice is a self-inflicted wound. >=20 > I do like your fundamentalist stance. I've often commented to people that if all the effort that went into = "working around" the problems caused by deliberately breaking IPv4 had = gone into developing & adopting IPv6 then we'd not be having these = discussions ! The only reason so many people see nothing wrong with NAT = is because they are lucky enough to only be using protocols/services = where someone else has "fixed" the problems. In the last two days (at work) I've had two issues directly caused by = broken networks (aka NAT) - both with SIP, completely different = customers/setups.= From nobody Fri Mar 17 14:04:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A6D012956B for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:04:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zLEoyJxLoBfv for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from fgont.go6lab.si (fgont.go6lab.si [IPv6:2001:67c:27e4::14]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F24F712952E for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2001:1291:200:42e::2] (cl-1071.udi-01.br.sixxs.net [IPv6:2001:1291:200:42e::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by fgont.go6lab.si (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3B91C82B75; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 22:04:38 +0100 (CET) To: Brian E Carpenter , Gert Doering References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> <20170316201413.GQ2367@Space.Net> <212f8258-a025-325e-badc-e7bdcc2bf5f7@gmail.com> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org From: Fernando Gont X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 Message-ID: Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 17:52:44 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <212f8258-a025-325e-badc-e7bdcc2bf5f7@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 21:04:47 -0000 On 03/16/2017 07:43 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 17/03/2017 09:14, Gert Doering wrote: >> Hi, >> >> On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 06:31:43AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> So, it seems clear to me that while getting a /64 is better than getting >>> a /128, it's even better to get a /56. Or even one of those 15 trillion /48s. >>> We should make it clear that /64 is not even second-best. Just better >>> than /128. >> >> "give any *host* that connects a /48" (and dimension pools on WiFi >> hotspots etc. big enough to actually be able to do this) might actually >> be a good way to ensure IPv6 is going to run out faster than expected... >> >> IOW, be careful with the maths here. > > Yes, one always needs cautious allocation policies. But still... /64 > is not enough in the general case, with today's link-layer media > and today's IPv6 stacks. (We can have the argument about tomorrow > some other time. :-) Well... /64 is not enough because somehow we choose to waste a large part of 128-64. IN principle if one were to use 48 bits for the iid (or even 56) that would still be big enough for randomizing IID, while still having 16 or 8 bits for "subnetting"... Cheers, -- Fernando Gont SI6 Networks e-mail: fgont@si6networks.com PGP Fingerprint: 6666 31C6 D484 63B2 8FB1 E3C4 AE25 0D55 1D4E 7492 From nobody Fri Mar 17 14:22:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5474B129609 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:22:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.402 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.402 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.197, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2BKzvAsOYQZz for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:22:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qk0-x234.google.com (mail-qk0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB25612961E for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:22:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qk0-x234.google.com with SMTP id 1so74810704qkl.3 for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:22:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=ur17pZwZ5WxjgbaIPD04Q08Gaf5zx5zq5wLws89DeIs=; b=JN8P7cWpldN2F3wkdGsr5n3HEdepWfcj1XDc246WtsXl05RenCm0x85qcxKcarTlJv 48WQoRlbXVM/4DioA3YsgvJZm7adGpeucNphhvVkA+qZOcfcmOdmHyWyJK31HnKQtMkv XXbknXf4lqbJCFS4/+dNOWMUoIahn4qRE5BYImzsyK5XqrMIebvOCRjFmpbgtWqWpmQV 1cjQB5hxpNu40Yn1vLaC87YGZRth97z5zXEIhIZXuMpFz/VENm6O1Rk2BeMuCQfOZpM/ Wg7TVbfeNw8nJKBA8kGPhs/sNLgXLZzudE1iY7QZAucwdSox7D2UwPaSLfvmC0pIW7JB 6twQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=ur17pZwZ5WxjgbaIPD04Q08Gaf5zx5zq5wLws89DeIs=; b=AXIDjySwKWfGee6fEOAyCNz3Cid/qeoIyKFVtnHjHDlcY+WvvPcXJ9gqWf9VLSCZ3t RPLRwOePuJ6B0nogOjAFJlROyS56bqSW3eJaUAJ3GwsYTyz7m5pngOjOxmaxOFsY6gbU WGRCw10V7i7z4I4bUpmKQAyA1dvldiXXt97hCUdk8NZyoda3Q2aMMx3LrlaBvNghWLzm wirHc82pVUzq6SqtAwJm7Lp578SvHFATp9deMm1QC5onZyiDh8Nxkdx4eeXQbeA5wFbp JFHuFS//7c0HlXg+hN0t/Vc84EtwPCErqpu71cpIFsehtincSjpAcB5XN5w9J6MJ84Zm ZOhw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0WkgoaaMa92H3GmJgecmzSYbPLSqX9A5LllmUcY75wWwfr4qY61ddFSw941khJZvROJs60bnYhtwxX1w== X-Received: by 10.233.222.197 with SMTP id s188mr14069607qkf.311.1489785761829; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:22:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: jinmei.tatuya@gmail.com Received: by 10.237.61.204 with HTTP; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:22:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 14:22:41 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: UnRoaknLcVajQ-hxv5Y7ccDDI3A Message-ID: To: Stuart Cheshire Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 21:22:53 -0000 At Thu, 16 Mar 2017 13:09:57 -0700, Stuart Cheshire wrote: > > If, during the course of connection establishment, the DNS answers > > change either by adding resolved addresses, or removing previously > > resolved addresses (for example, due to expiry of the TTL on that DNS > > record), the client should react based on its current progress. > > > > Specifically what kind of scenario does this intend to imply? For > > example, consider the following scenario: > > > > 1. start a AAAA query for a destination name > > 2. start an A query for the same name almost at the same time > > 3. get a response to the AAAA query (set of IPv6 addresses) > > 4. start establishing a connection for one of the IPv6 addresses > > 5. get a response to the A query (set of IPv4 addresses) > > > > At step 5, DNS resolution is fully completed. > > No, DNS resolution is not fully completed at step 5. In this > asynchronous model (as used in Apple products for many years) DNS > resolution is an ongoing process, which continues until the client > has successfully made a connection, and only stops when the client > tells the DNS engine that it can stop. I guess there's something (undocumented yet and) very specific to the Apple implementation details of the "asynchronous model", then. In the above example steps, we've received an answer to both AAAA and A queries at step 5. Whether the resolution is asynchronous or synchronous, why can't we "tell the DNS engine to stop"? Does the "DNS engine" still expect more responses even after getting both AAAA and A responses? Perhaps it keeps sending the same queries to see whether there's a change? At least it's not clear to me from Section 3 of the draft. > Many web sites use DNS records with fairly short TTLs, which allows > them to update answers fairly rapidly. I know all this. But I don't think it relevant to the point of my question. -- JINMEI, Tatuya From nobody Fri Mar 17 16:45:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BDA512950B for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:45:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0JuTvR-o_41f for ; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-in24.apple.com (mail-out24.apple.com [17.171.2.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E3AF41243F6 for ; 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Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:45:37 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11ab0218-d930d9a000007c39-00-58cc7520b7bc Received: from nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01 (nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01.apple.com [17.151.62.64]) by relay8.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id 01.C8.07296.0257CC85; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:45:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Received: from [17.153.66.221] (unknown [17.153.66.221]) by nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170210 64bit (built Feb 10 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0OMZ005B8GNZNF80@nwk-phonehomebzp-sz01.apple.com>; Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Sender: cheshire@apple.com From: Stuart Cheshire In-reply-to: Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 16:46:35 -0700 Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Message-id: <67F3487E-8086-48F0-B737-2DCAFF1210D0@apple.com> References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> To: =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrOLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FCYpqtYeibC4P1pHotFuw+wWZw+tpfZ gcljyZKfTB57nx5jC2CK4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4Mroe9nDVDCDo2Lf3h62BsYrbF2MHBwSAiYS t/emdjFycQgJ7GeU2LzvA0sXIydYfHXLMkYQW0jgGKPE8fn5IDavgKDEj8n3WEB6mQXUJaZM yYXoXcgkce19G1i9sICUxKuVn5lBaoQFDCR+3s8ECbMJaEm8+AyylpODUyBYomH3RFYQm0VA VeLTjz9QI1Uk/jfwg4SZBbQlnry7wAqx1Uai78cfdohVP5glFhzqYgepFwE6c9MDJ4iLZSWe nFwEdf0SNonmS2kTGIVnITl6FsLRs5BsWMDIvIpRODcxM0c3M8/IRC+xoCAnVS85P3cTIyik VzNJ7GD88trwEKMAB6MSD69ExpkIIdbEsuLK3EOM0hwsSuK8d/6ejhASSE8sSc1OTS1ILYov Ks1JLT7EyMTBKdXAmFOTmqcavMe1xPtK4IS4r9s4U6r0IjoCMu0idRe/6L04YdWSTcK3Ph3w vG/Vw6qTy6lRcvddf4j28cQZqXOjJpvOl/kRt5Lz9p7Aj3dUcj6+rxNg+dnkLbDOoH1Gn9mZ ufmB01boOBz68fHTnKm3Fjzq1tut8izWV2zlYZlXs+W/uh3nvfonT4mlOCPRUIu5qDgRAEgw TdlKAgAA X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFupikeLIzCtJLcpLzFFi42IRnG7noKtQeibCYP9BJYtFuw+wWZw+tpfZ gcljyZKfTB57nx5jC2CK4rJJSc3JLEst0rdL4Mroe9nDVDCDo2Lf3h62BsYrbF2MnBwSAiYS q1uWMYLYQgLHGCWOz88HsXkFBCV+TL7H0sXIwcEsoC4xZUpuFyMXUMlCJolr79vA6oUFpCRe rfzMDFIjLGAg8fN+JkiYTUBL4sVniPGcAsESDbsnsoLYLAKqEp9+/IEaqSLxv4EfJMwsoC3x 5N0FVoitNhJ9P/6wQ6z6wSyx4FAXO0i9CNCZmx44QVwsK/Hk5CKWCYwCs5AcOgvh0FlIpi5g ZF7FKFCUmpNYaaGXWFCQk6qXnJ+7iREUhA2FaTsYm5ZbHWIU4GBU4uG98eR0hBBrYllxZe4h RgkOZiUR3hN+ZyKEeFMSK6tSi/Lji0pzUosPMVYBvTKRWUo0OR8YIXkl8YYmJgYmxsZmxsbm JuZUEVYS5/0XBLRZID2xJDU7NbUgtQhmORMHp1QD40UHsZWK06rrDZc5qa478bGe30JyteDi kMJpHR8/9z66bPFo3d5jHEyGraGti6UVq1e8dLwmk63u67WLwYez6Ezk3tNbr3z7fb3QpeSQ UXn01jXbRWZX599+O3fBqZg7XRsb36+ucjQoFX0sUXxAX0uBM2qx3OFZByZOOHnhCJvA/Fyt ItNN05VYijMSDbWYi4oTAUWkGKKdAgAA Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 17 Mar 2017 23:45:40 -0000 On 17 Mar 2017, at 14:22, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 = wrote: > I guess there's something (undocumented yet and) very specific to the > Apple implementation details of the "asynchronous model", then. In > the above example steps, we've received an answer to both AAAA and A > queries at step 5. Whether the resolution is asynchronous or > synchronous, why can't we "tell the DNS engine to stop"? Does the > "DNS engine" still expect more responses even after getting both AAAA > and A responses? Perhaps it keeps sending the same queries to see > whether there's a change? At least it's not clear to me from Section > 3 of the draft. If you want to learn more about this, the asynchronous model is = explained in =E2=80=9CZero Configuration Networking: The Definitive = Guide=E2=80=9D = If you=E2=80=99re going to be in Chicago for IETF 98 I can bring a copy = for you. Stuart Cheshire From nobody Sun Mar 19 17:31:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D04AF12702E for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 17:31:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.902 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.902 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id a_ytNbieQfxA for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 17:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx.ams1.isc.org (mx.ams1.isc.org [199.6.1.65]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 22C33129415 for ; Sun, 19 Mar 2017 17:31:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (zmx1.isc.org [149.20.0.20]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mx.ams1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EE49424AE15; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 00:29:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87A10160045; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 00:29:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 72EDF1600A9; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 00:29:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from zmx1.isc.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zmx1.isc.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id GG3GElpGz5Es; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 00:29:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (50-193-53-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net [50.193.53.102]) by zmx1.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 3E8C3160045; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 00:29:56 +0000 (UTC) Received: from rock.dv.isc.org (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by rock.dv.isc.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75637670AB29; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 11:29:55 +1100 (EST) To: Gert Doering Cc: Brian E Carpenter , v6ops@ietf.org From: Mark Andrews References: <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> <20170316201413.GQ2367@Space.Net> <212f8258-a025-325e-badc-e7bdcc2bf5f7@gmail.com> <20170316232633.77ADD66F1D4A@rock.dv.isc.org> <20170317101306.GT2367@Space.Net> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 17 Mar 2017 11:13:06 +0100." <20170317101306.GT2367@Space.Net> Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 11:29:55 +1100 Message-Id: <20170320002955.75637670AB29@rock.dv.isc.org> Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 00:31:21 -0000 In message <20170317101306.GT2367@Space.Net>, Gert Doering writes: > > Hi, > > On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 10:26:33AM +1100, Mark Andrews wrote: > > > > > > Yes, one always needs cautious allocation policies. But still... /64 > > > is not enough in the general case, with today's link-layer media > > > and today's IPv6 stacks. (We can have the argument about tomorrow > > > some other time. :-) > > > > And PD allows for a node to do multiple PD requests. Each router > > doesn't need a pool of prefixes to answer PD requests from. It can > > do a upstream request to full fill the downstream request on demand. > > Technically, it could. Administratively, I'm going to believe that > when I see it - like, in a big enterprise network, individual /64s > being routed randomly across the place because a wifi hotspot needed > another prefix to hand out. Why not? It's not like it actually is hard to do this. What I am seeing here is IPv4 think being applied to IPv6 features. Handing out prefixes is a completely different problem to handing out individual addresses. There is zero need to break down the prefix pool into regions like you had to break down the IPv4 address space into subnets. > > A coffee shop is a site or part of a site. That site should have > > a /48 with 65536 /64 subnets to further allocate. Hosts draw from > > that pool. Yes, that does mean that there are lots of intra site > > routing entries for /64's rather than for shorter prefix lengths. > > That however shouldn't matter because it is not a excessive number > > for even the most inexpensive router to handle and they are summaried > > as a /48 in the global routing table. Even with a few of /48 pools > > from different ISPs it still isn't excessive. > > A coffee shop has a /48 today (or a /56, given that the RIR policies > where changed based on extrapolations that a /48 for each SoHo customer > connection might not be sustainable). > > If we suggest that hosts should "get a /48", and there a a number of > customers in that coffee shop, then a /48-per-site is not going to > be enough. A site may have a single host, but hosts, in general, aren't sites. And who is suggesting that hosts get a /48 for this? I'm not. > But seriously: how many visitors of said coffee shop would need > more than a /64? Yes, I've heard about the laptop with the VMs running, > in multiple hierarchical virtual networks, and such. How many of those > laptops exist? 100, 1000? This is totally niche. Today, not many. Tomorrow who knows. We do however have a provisioning protocol that will work. > Normal users want their browsing, e-mail and corporate VPN to work. > > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > -- > have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? > > SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard > Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. > Grundner-Culemann > D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) > Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 > -- Mark Andrews, ISC 1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: marka@isc.org From nobody Mon Mar 20 02:28:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 64FAB1297E1 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 02:28:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q9ybLGT8ayMV for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 02:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ua0-x22f.google.com (mail-ua0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c08::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 898CA1297E6 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 02:28:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ua0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id q7so72350967uaf.2 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 02:28:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=+tyvbH3s/FUrK4Y0mmp60BxzZjVA0SKRugWpbXPo7Ko=; b=ZtB8ObFNSBpKDWO69PA7wpyn/y1PYfcBSSKMCb+IlzHFzRgragUW/5+kmhOqbMzbuY FGLdUGtDItO7BxS4BN+OL1E8nZ7xMu9s0x/uE4XMSQD96abwGPswI2OhiLGUDvrD/Qbb mCaw6CvXN2hXZFjLdNeK/QvdR9Xtv5xHuXhWFn39Z7q4aIo5IiY3hVoqB6ETGfOLINni XOYSMjp18w9Z+y7l8z+3ptBMjiIGdbA48YIYWeAsOGbLspKoilGlKQw1nIHdxzVls42y ZcUmckI0xVI4aXF6GPUYUgF/T9QC5OhLHy5SG520fORVt3SerM7oq6g3vfLPAiFavZZF O6ow== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=+tyvbH3s/FUrK4Y0mmp60BxzZjVA0SKRugWpbXPo7Ko=; b=GY79lBP16puOlv5JXsSv6ZJk1L7BB2PXG6tqlTPgvU3YVpqW/Txz8vkGHPSFXQnm/n 4S/LQu/gXI7K1Fv9jMdJp5zUiGA8Xrr4PcOy3B2XmSbHhorNZB7aPfaZ/au7wsLBSYvD MEkwOiaKPh2LsdFQI7sBRhgwNAWXCf/GDXECc7W1rwDsx2FRuKrMHbP96p2b5vM2vZ2F 2nMg5qk829WnfNDdKja2pe/5dEeIX//U3tG6mpDDPBzi6Xmry1ICPZhR9EnSADhFJ23B wV0gzjGCQiFWHjBKUrxwtLNjmL9j85rP9Fb8M3yUh/QwXWz5dlznmNWuArYXh2nhHMkC /AfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1KFYTVHLWtW7OHnmX5+NQvZP5uOHTRLhzx2WX7LZ+MfzAmXytUUWmezpTJ7qC5uIRZ+eJKCAaPinDkPERK X-Received: by 10.159.34.13 with SMTP id 13mr8225787uad.72.1490002124428; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 02:28:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.155.211 with HTTP; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 02:28:23 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 18:28:23 +0900 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Ole Troan , Alexandre Petrescu , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1135bb6e57bead054b262797 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 09:28:47 -0000 --001a1135bb6e57bead054b262797 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 2:31 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Yes, but only if /64 is no longer sacred. It's going to be tricky if some > of the nodes on the /66 subnets assume SLAAC at /64. If /64 is no longer fixed then we'll end up with /128 + NAT66 like we do in IPv4. > So, it seems clear to me that while getting a /64 is better than getting > a /128, it's even better to get a /56. Or even one of those 15 trillion /48s. > We should make it clear that /64 is not even second-best. Just better > than /128. Given that this is an operational draft, then I would suggest an applicability statement: state that DHCPv6 PD is better, but also state that best *current* practice is to provide a /64 via RA, because currently very few hosts have DHCPv6 PD clients and providing PD on the network side is not going to help the vast majority of clients. Using shared links on public deployments with untrusted hosts has all sorts of security and scalability issues (ND spoofing, DAD spoofing, ND cache exhaustion attacks, etc.) /64 to the host is just a much better solution. --001a1135bb6e57bead054b262797 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Fri, Mar 17, 2017 at 2:31 AM, Brian E Carpenter
<= brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
> Yes, but only if /64 is no longer sacred. It's g= oing to be tricky if some
> of the nodes on the /66 subnets assume SL= AAC at /64.

If /64 is no longer fixed then we'll end up with /12= 8 + NAT66 like we
do in IPv4.

> So, it seems clear to me that = while getting a /64 is better than getting
> a /128, it's even be= tter to get a /56. Or even one of those 15 trillion /48s.
> We should= make it clear that /64 is not even second-best. Just better
> than /= 128.

Given that this is an operational draft, then I would suggest a= n applicability statement: state that DHCPv6 PD is better, but also=C2=A0st= ate that best *current* practice is to provide a /64 via RA, because=C2=A0c= urrently very few hosts have DHCPv6 PD clients and providing PD on=C2=A0the= network side is not going to help the vast majority of clients.

Usi= ng shared links on public deployments with untrusted hosts has all sorts of= security and scalability issues=C2=A0(ND spoofing, DAD spoofing, ND cache = exhaustion attacks, etc.) /64 to=C2=A0the host is just a much better soluti= on.
--001a1135bb6e57bead054b262797-- From nobody Mon Mar 20 04:48:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 468A812F274 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 04:48:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.92 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.92 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EzgO6gj9VTGt for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 04:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta03.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mta03.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.145]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id B326C12F268 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 04:48:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 23833 messnum 1180758 invoked from network[213.94.190.14/avas02.vendorsvc.cra.dublin.eircom.net]); 20 Mar 2017 11:48:29 -0000 Received: from avas02.vendorsvc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (HELO avas02) (213.94.190.14) by mta03.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 23833) with SMTP; 20 Mar 2017 11:48:29 -0000 Received: from [192.168.88.124] ([86.43.53.22]) by Cloudmark Gateway with SMTP id pvnYcEGvUxabXpvnYc6vO8; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 11:48:29 +0000 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=S/qp+MkP c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=7ugC4sEQ6lEClWYXl7YWXw==:117 a=7ugC4sEQ6lEClWYXl7YWXw==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=1XWaLZrsAAAA:8 a=dQM89Wokp5yP3KIhbV8A:9 a=88LecxP5cgcWmiA-:21 a=RkqnsFV8PTViiyfd:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=nJcEw6yWrPvoIXZ49MH8:22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Ross Chandler In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 11:46:22 +0000 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfGR9gFcLyvN4xmE4+Xkr1VfBn7N/OS19vzMxybiqYtf7whwEEVcwR1dZdwyxvjevV3gLXgWjYlrRycwRbaLAO7xt6L5STv7dJK7OQp1WlKh8cQE16zWY Vl9X11ncM663UgC6v7B+dkdtFiWSBF2kOK+gppi9ZIqr5rSQ4cFaBCf1PpdPCkzV43mipzm2ugnCBg== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 11:48:41 -0000 > On 20 Mar 2017, at 09:28, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: >=20 > Given that this is an operational draft, then I would suggest an = applicability statement: state that DHCPv6 PD is better, but also state = that best *current* practice is to provide a /64 via RA, because = currently very few hosts have DHCPv6 PD clients and providing PD on the = network side is not going to help the vast majority of clients. >=20 > Using shared links on public deployments with untrusted hosts has all = sorts of security and scalability issues (ND spoofing, DAD spoofing, ND = cache exhaustion attacks, etc.) /64 to the host is just a much better = solution. It might also be worth noting in the draft how 3GPP TS.23401 5.3.1.2.6 = says prefix shorter than /64 assignment to UEs should work.=20 "Optionally a single network prefix shorter than the default /64 prefix = may be assigned to a PDN connection. In this case, the /64 default = prefix used for IPv6 stateless autoconfiguration will be allocated from = this network prefix; the remaining address space from the network prefix = can be delegated to the PDN connection using prefix delegation after the = default bearer establishment and IPv6 prefix allocation via IPv6 = stateless address autoconfiguration as defined in clause 5.3.1.2.2.=E2=80=9D= =E2=80=9CThe UE uses DHCPv6 to request additional IPv6 prefixes (i.e. = prefixes in addition to the default prefix) from the PDN GW after = completing stateless IPv6 address autoconfiguration procedures.=E2=80=9D Having a single contiguous prefix is allowed for by specifying the minor = extra detail of prefix length in CDRs. Ross From nobody Mon Mar 20 06:01:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EAC8413146F for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 06:01:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2hJd-BN_mhKD for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 06:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 559CB131464 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 06:01:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2KD1DEV046444 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 14:01:13 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 68EAD2048B7 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 14:01:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E791202F7B for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 14:01:13 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2KD1CRP012480 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 14:01:13 +0100 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 14:01:01 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 13:01:23 -0000 Le 20/03/2017 à 12:46, Ross Chandler a écrit : > >> On 20 Mar 2017, at 09:28, Lorenzo Colitti >> wrote: >> >> Given that this is an operational draft, then I would suggest an >> applicability statement: state that DHCPv6 PD is better, but also >> state that best *current* practice is to provide a /64 via RA, >> because currently very few hosts have DHCPv6 PD clients and >> providing PD on the network side is not going to help the vast >> majority of clients. >> >> Using shared links on public deployments with untrusted hosts has >> all sorts of security and scalability issues (ND spoofing, DAD >> spoofing, ND cache exhaustion attacks, etc.) /64 to the host is >> just a much better solution. > > > > It might also be worth noting in the draft how 3GPP TS.23401 > 5.3.1.2.6 says prefix shorter than /64 assignment to UEs should > work. A-ha! > "Optionally a single network prefix shorter than the default /64 > prefix may be assigned to a PDN connection. In this case, the /64 > default prefix used for IPv6 stateless autoconfiguration will be > allocated from this network prefix; the remaining address space from > the network prefix can be delegated to the PDN connection using > prefix delegation after the default bearer establishment and IPv6 > prefix allocation via IPv6 stateless address autoconfiguration as > defined in clause 5.3.1.2.2.” > > “The UE uses DHCPv6 to request additional IPv6 prefixes (i.e. > prefixes in addition to the default prefix) from the PDN GW after > completing stateless IPv6 address autoconfiguration procedures.” This seems to indicate that the PDN GW plays both a role of DHCPv6-PD Requesting Router aka DHCPv6 Client (when it gets "assigned" a shorter-than-64 prefix) _and_ the role of DHCPv6-PD Delegating Router aka DHCPv6 Server (when it delegates additional IPv6 prefixes to the UE). This is a little bit awkward for setting up routing. It would be simpler if the PDN GW were a DHCPv6 Relay. Has it been considered to make the PDN GW a DHCPv6 Relay? > Having a single contiguous prefix is allowed for by specifying the > minor extra detail of prefix length in CDRs. It makes sense to have a single contiguous prefix, in some cases. It could also make sense to set an entire /47 to that PDN GW, and run a DHCPv6 Server on PDN GWs and nowhere else. It comes down to these two non-awkward options: either set a DHCPv6 Server in each PDN GW, or a single DHCPv6 Server deeper in the core accompanied by many DHCPv6 Relays in each PDN GW. Alex > > Ross > > > > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Mon Mar 20 11:26:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E536613161D for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 11:26:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.12 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.12 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H7X7toMVgdgi for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 11:26:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mta04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.171]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 22814131524 for ; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 11:26:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 30805 messnum 2546072 invoked from network[213.94.190.14/avas02.vendorsvc.cra.dublin.eircom.net]); 20 Mar 2017 18:26:27 -0000 Received: from avas02.vendorsvc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (HELO avas02) (213.94.190.14) by mta04.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 30805) with SMTP; 20 Mar 2017 18:26:27 -0000 Received: from [192.168.1.6] ([86.41.196.230]) by Cloudmark Gateway with SMTP id q20hcHieHxabXq20hc8fT8; Mon, 20 Mar 2017 18:26:27 +0000 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=S/qp+MkP c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=KxMnPnQgeIC2/LxhaiH2Fg==:117 a=KxMnPnQgeIC2/LxhaiH2Fg==:17 a=IkcTkHD0fZMA:10 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=B_AFnGzwtaGztumgJbMA:9 a=X1jK_dzvQcEtfq50:21 a=xVJPI43q8rvFadbM:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=6kGIvZw6iX1k4Y-7sg4_:22 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Ross Chandler In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 18:26:26 +0000 Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfHCyIIOzLKl0wJdKLoc6+RxOfZGV5hBYxz0NU0k3Nnd2iLnks12w9nOUQh9h/LnusuW5IY783RYNXb80sT6uDK1v994P7n6akRYHkMG2d2FMD4nmfqVw 3xbW4GXobkTHi+lTw+fC5yNjhq4yjiQ48jaZQX6GpATnd/iOLAtGvbxATwFQ4n+v7Bc29owEAOnFz/HsqdBakJXUYX74t/KtIs8= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 20 Mar 2017 18:26:35 -0000 > On 20 Mar 2017, at 13:01, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 >> "Optionally a single network prefix shorter than the default /64 >> prefix may be assigned to a PDN connection. In this case, the /64 >> default prefix used for IPv6 stateless autoconfiguration will be >> allocated from this network prefix; the remaining address space from >> the network prefix can be delegated to the PDN connection using >> prefix delegation after the default bearer establishment and IPv6 >> prefix allocation via IPv6 stateless address autoconfiguration as >> defined in clause 5.3.1.2.2.=E2=80=9D >>=20 >> =E2=80=9CThe UE uses DHCPv6 to request additional IPv6 prefixes (i.e. >> prefixes in addition to the default prefix) from the PDN GW after >> completing stateless IPv6 address autoconfiguration procedures.=E2=80=9D= >=20 > This seems to indicate that the PDN GW plays both a role of > DHCPv6-PD Requesting Router aka DHCPv6 Client (when it gets "assigned" = a > shorter-than-64 prefix) _and_ the role of > DHCPv6-PD Delegating Router aka DHCPv6 Server (when it delegates > additional IPv6 prefixes to the UE). >=20 > This is a little bit awkward for setting up routing. >=20 > It would be simpler if the PDN GW were a DHCPv6 Relay. >=20 > Has it been considered to make the PDN GW a DHCPv6 Relay? In the case of /64 per host, the implementation I=E2=80=99ve seen = supplies the prefix needed by SLAAC by having the GW address assignment = function generate a DHCPv6 PD request which the GW relays either to an = internal DHCPv6 server or to a central server. That is in a TWAG = supplied by one of the draft=E2=80=99s authors. It seems to be done in a = way ripe for extension to support UE DHCPv6-PD requests after the = initial SLAAC /64 is assigned. Ross From nobody Tue Mar 21 02:53:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29F5C1200F1 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 02:53:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KWMqfaVR4q0G for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 02:53:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AB736129544 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 02:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2L9r2dx017440; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 10:53:02 +0100 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 229A4205DEE; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 10:53:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 14C4B205E09; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 10:53:02 +0100 (CET) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2L9r1cS021216; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 10:53:01 +0100 To: Ross Chandler References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <38a5e5d9-d6fa-2ad1-b93c-9fd12220564b@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 10:52:49 +0100 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 09:53:14 -0000 Le 20/03/2017 à 19:26, Ross Chandler a écrit : > >> On 20 Mar 2017, at 13:01, Alexandre Petrescu >> wrote: >> >>> "Optionally a single network prefix shorter than the default /64 >>> prefix may be assigned to a PDN connection. In this case, the >>> /64 default prefix used for IPv6 stateless autoconfiguration >>> will be allocated from this network prefix; the remaining >>> address space from the network prefix can be delegated to the >>> PDN connection using prefix delegation after the default bearer >>> establishment and IPv6 prefix allocation via IPv6 stateless >>> address autoconfiguration as defined in clause 5.3.1.2.2.” >>> >>> “The UE uses DHCPv6 to request additional IPv6 prefixes (i.e. >>> prefixes in addition to the default prefix) from the PDN GW after >>> completing stateless IPv6 address autoconfiguration procedures.” >> >> This seems to indicate that the PDN GW plays both a role of >> DHCPv6-PD Requesting Router aka DHCPv6 Client (when it gets >> "assigned" a shorter-than-64 prefix) _and_ the role of DHCPv6-PD >> Delegating Router aka DHCPv6 Server (when it delegates additional >> IPv6 prefixes to the UE). >> >> This is a little bit awkward for setting up routing. >> >> It would be simpler if the PDN GW were a DHCPv6 Relay. >> >> Has it been considered to make the PDN GW a DHCPv6 Relay? > > > In the case of /64 per host, the implementation I’ve seen supplies > the prefix needed by SLAAC by having the GW address assignment > function generate a DHCPv6 PD request which the GW relays either to > an internal DHCPv6 server or to a central server. That is in a TWAG > supplied by one of the draft’s authors. It seems to be done in a way > ripe for extension to support UE DHCPv6-PD requests after the > initial SLAAC /64 is assigned. Sounds promising. We wrote a python DHCPv6 client called "PD tester" that issues DHCPv6 PD requests to cellular networks. We tested it on a one cellular network and no answer until now. We would like to test it on other cellular networks. Is the TWAG applied in some cellular network? Alex > > Ross > > > > > From nobody Tue Mar 21 04:55:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34A041297AB for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 04:55:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.272 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.272 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_BL_SPAMCOP_NET=1.347, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XgvtxNFG8WJt for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 04:55:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (mta01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net [159.134.118.222]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 558D71297BF for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 04:55:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: (qmail 5054 messnum 12590386 invoked from network[213.94.190.14/avas02.vendorsvc.cra.dublin.eircom.net]); 21 Mar 2017 11:55:21 -0000 Received: from avas02.vendorsvc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (HELO avas02) (213.94.190.14) by mta01.svc.cra.dublin.eircom.net (qp 5054) with SMTP; 21 Mar 2017 11:55:21 -0000 Received: from [100.95.254.2] ([83.174.190.115]) by Cloudmark Gateway with SMTP id qINkcNwjIxabXqINlcBOdp; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 11:55:21 +0000 X-CNFS-Analysis: v=2.2 cv=S/qp+MkP c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=h6n2PObyWmlQd+rqL0a5kQ==:117 a=h6n2PObyWmlQd+rqL0a5kQ==:17 a=pGLkceISAAAA:8 a=iX_MYV5ld3tcgomzZbsA:9 a=Zj2QDChNd60pSaSd:21 a=1XLiokfEvsA9YJQb:21 a=QEXdDO2ut3YA:10 a=xjzrb5zU_wj0yqaCKMQA:9 a=hs_bFiTAVBtX4x_B:21 a=AgGU63s3vsZ_J1hB:21 a=dwa-JT7sbUcu4ifw:21 a=6UIaq3Bcl8oA:10 a=_W_S_7VecoQA:10 a=6kGIvZw6iX1k4Y-7sg4_:22 From: Ross Chandler Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C884A7A5-422D-4582-BA0E-D0E449D5B209" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 11:55:20 +0000 In-Reply-To: <38a5e5d9-d6fa-2ad1-b93c-9fd12220564b@gmail.com> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org To: Alexandre Petrescu References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> <38a5e5d9-d6fa-2ad1-b93c-9fd12220564b@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-CMAE-Envelope: MS4wfP0camaNGtxoY9a+Da3OJkUiVDBb0967XJn+gJzqHwikyZmJ5dQj+o9FAyEA772NaICZzCjhilnxBridfOY4rfFQsEYlW0GPs0GM3m4wdG8eBsu6fo+Y xq6L2mW+rgJF+CU15Pa05BAbBirKRXgUXjtvXq5/DvrwNhoPFIh7rWMxs7g/oWfZVh0onDuqwWc7ohCw6vfdwYWSplk2NOU4kko= Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 11:55:28 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C884A7A5-422D-4582-BA0E-D0E449D5B209 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On 21 Mar 2017, at 09:52, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >> In the case of /64 per host, the implementation I=E2=80=99ve seen = supplies >> the prefix needed by SLAAC by having the GW address assignment >> function generate a DHCPv6 PD request which the GW relays either to >> an internal DHCPv6 server or to a central server. That is in a TWAG >> supplied by one of the draft=E2=80=99s authors. It seems to be done = in a way >> ripe for extension to support UE DHCPv6-PD requests after the >> initial SLAAC /64 is assigned. >=20 > Sounds promising. >=20 > We wrote a python DHCPv6 client called "PD tester" that issues DHCPv6 = PD > requests to cellular networks. We tested it on a one cellular network > and no answer until now. >=20 > We would like to test it on other cellular networks. >=20 > Is the TWAG applied in some cellular network? There=E2=80=99s no cellular access but it is very similar. All the = clients are using their WiFi interfaces, their access is tunnelled to = the GW where each client gets its own unique /64 by SLAAC. If the gateway and UE could do DHCPv6-PD over both WiFi & 3GPP = interfaces as described in TS.23401 then shorter than /64 prefixes could = be assigned in a common manner. Here is a further quote from TS.23401 clause 5.3.1.2.6 on how the DHCPv6 = should operate=20 "The total IPv6 address space available for the PDN connection (UE = default bearer prefix and UE PDN connection IPv6 address space pool) = shall be possible to aggregate into one IPv6 prefix that will represent = all IPv6 addresses that the UE may use. If the UE had indicated that it = supports prefix exclusion and the prefix to be delegated to the UE = includes the /64 prefix that was allocated to the PDN Connection, the = PDN GW shall utilise the prefix exclusion feature as specified for = DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation in IETF RFC 6603 [70]. The UE uses DHCPv6 to request additional IPv6 prefixes (i.e. prefixes in = addition to the default prefix) from the PDN GW after completing = stateless IPv6 address autoconfiguration procedures. The UE acts as a = "Requesting Router" as described in RFC 3633 [21] and inserts one or = more IA_PD option(s) into a DHCPv6 Solicit message sent from the UE to = the PDN GW. The PDN GW acts as the DHCP server and fulfils the role of a = "Delegating Router" according to RFC 3633 [21]. The UE optionally = includes the RAPID_COMMIT option in the DHCPv6 Solicit message to = trigger two-message DHCPv6 procedure instead of the four-message DHCPv6 = procedure. The UE shall include OPTION_PD_EXCLUDE option code in an = OPTION_ORO option to indicate support for prefix exclusion. In response = to the DHCPv6 Solicit message, the UE receives a DHCPv6 Reply message = with one or more IA_PD prefix(es) for every IA_PD option that it sent in = the DHCPv6 Solicit message. The PDN GW delegates a prefix excluding the = default prefix with help of OPTION_PD_EXCLUDE. Prefix exclusion = procedures shall follow IETF RFC 6603 [70].=E2=80=9D Ross= --Apple-Mail=_C884A7A5-422D-4582-BA0E-D0E449D5B209 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On 21 Mar 2017, at 09:52, Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> = wrote:

In the = case of /64 per host, the implementation I=E2=80=99ve seen supplies
the prefix needed by SLAAC by having the GW address = assignment
function generate a DHCPv6 PD request which the = GW relays either to
an internal DHCPv6 server  or to = a central server. That is in a TWAG
supplied by one of the = draft=E2=80=99s authors. It seems to be done in a way
ripe = for extension to support UE DHCPv6-PD requests after the
initial SLAAC /64 is assigned.

Sounds promising.

We wrote a = python DHCPv6 client called "PD tester" that issues DHCPv6 PD
requests to cellular networks.  We tested it on a one = cellular network
and no answer until now.

We would like to test it on other cellular networks.

Is the TWAG applied in some cellular = network?

There=E2=80=99s no cellular access but it is very = similar. All the clients are using their WiFi interfaces, their access = is tunnelled to the GW where each client gets its own unique /64 by = SLAAC.
If the gateway and UE could do DHCPv6-PD over both WiFi = & 3GPP interfaces as described in TS.23401 then shorter than /64 = prefixes could be assigned in a common manner.

Here is a further quote from = TS.23401 clause 5.3.1.2.6 on how the DHCPv6 should operate 

"The total IPv6 address space available for the PDN connection (UE default bearer prefix = and UE PDN connection IPv6 address space pool) shall be possible to aggregate = into one IPv6 prefix that will represent all IPv6 addresses that the UE may use. = If the UE had indicated that it supports prefix exclusion and the prefix to be delegated to the UE includes the /64 prefix that was allocated to the = PDN Connection, the PDN GW shall utilise the prefix exclusion feature as = specified for DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation in IETF RFC 6603 [70].

The UE uses DHCPv6 to request additional IPv6 prefixes (i.e. prefixes in addition to the = default prefix) from the PDN GW after completing stateless IPv6 address autoconfiguration procedures. The UE acts as a "Requesting Router" as described in RFC 3633 [21] and inserts one or more IA_PD = option(s) into a DHCPv6 Solicit message sent from the UE to the PDN GW. The PDN GW = acts as the DHCP server and fulfils the role of a "Delegating Router" according to RFC 3633 [21]. The UE optionally includes the = RAPID_COMMIT option in the DHCPv6 Solicit message to trigger two-message DHCPv6 = procedure instead of the four-message DHCPv6 procedure. The UE shall include OPTION_PD_EXCLUDE option code in an OPTION_ORO option to indicate = support for prefix exclusion. In response to the DHCPv6 Solicit message, the UE = receives a DHCPv6 Reply message with one or more IA_PD prefix(es) for every IA_PD = option that it sent in the DHCPv6 Solicit message. The PDN GW delegates a = prefix excluding the default prefix with help of OPTION_PD_EXCLUDE. Prefix = exclusion procedures shall follow IETF RFC 6603 [70].=E2=80=9D


Ross

= --Apple-Mail=_C884A7A5-422D-4582-BA0E-D0E449D5B209-- From nobody Tue Mar 21 08:59:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12DA51294B7 for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 08:59:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.22 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.22 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 00DTF4JJH1Pi for ; Tue, 21 Mar 2017 08:59:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-02.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.179]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client 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Fred L" To: Alexandre Petrescu , Ross Chandler CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device Thread-Index: AQHSoij/pbFzxJpLzE+cTKp+GsZi4aGfbyZQ Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 15:59:10 +0000 Message-ID: References: <20170316082639.GF2367@Space.Net> <29F9E911-E637-456D-A930-3316FFD93C41@jisc.ac.uk> <27AE6A05-C742-44BF-98E8-BFCEC72316F2@employees.org> <634a6a12-4d82-da33-6d1d-baae2e5b2891@gmail.com> <13DA8077-91C1-4B3F-9D67-3727F546D202@employees.org> <13194a4f-aeda-63b0-0293-6bc738b068f2@gmail.com> <4D60B43B-24F9-4701-800E-13CF32CD4769@employees.org> <8fc7f3e7-7155-f184-c028-a9f6da7e97db@gmail.com> <38a5e5d9-d6fa-2ad1-b93c-9fd12220564b@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <38a5e5d9-d6fa-2ad1-b93c-9fd12220564b@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.136.248.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] WGLC: draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host-02 - multiple prefixes per device X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Mar 2017 15:59:18 -0000 V2UgaGF2ZSBiZWVuIHVzaW5nIERIQ1B2NiBQRCBjbGllbnQgZm9yIGEgbG9uZyB0aW1lIGFuZCBo YXZlIHJlbGVhc2VkIGEgcHJvb2Ygb2YNCmNvbmNlcHQgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb246DQoNCmh0dHA6 Ly9saW5rdXBuZXR3b3Jrcy5vcmcvYWVyby9hZXJvLTMuMC4yLnRneg0KDQpXZSBhbHNvIGhhdmUg YW4gaW50ZXJuYWwtb25seSBpbXBsZW1lbnRhdGlvbiB0aGF0IHJ1bnMgb24gQW5kcm9pZC4gV2Ug aGF2ZSBiZWVuDQp1c2luZyBpdCBmb3Igb3ZlciBhIHllYXIgdG8gd29yayB3aXRoIGVudGVycHJp c2UgbW9iaWxlIGRldmljZXMuIFRoaXMgbm90IGlzIG5vdCBhIHNhbGVzDQpwaXRjaCBmb3Igb3Vy IGNvZGUsIGJ1dCByYXRoZXIgYSBwcm9vZiB0aGF0IHRoZSBESENQdjYgUEQgY2xpZW50IGZ1bmN0 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Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdjZvcHMNCg== From nobody Wed Mar 22 07:37:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D876A126CE8 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 06:55:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -7.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-7.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=nlnetlabs.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QevnoU9RZi_p for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 06:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dicht.nlnetlabs.nl (open.nlnetlabs.nl [185.49.140.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F4D2126B72 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 06:55:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:2a04:b900::1:59f6:7df6:1bd:4652] (unknown [IPv6:2a04:b900:0:1:59f6:7df6:1bd:4652]) by dicht.nlnetlabs.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F0EA2BD74; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 14:55:31 +0100 (CET) Authentication-Results: dicht.nlnetlabs.nl; dmarc=none header.from=NLnetLabs.nl DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=nlnetlabs.nl; s=default; t=1490190931; bh=yQy9NmGrZwd8SQAlTOBu0++LWQZm3d3cV2kaWqi+5XM=; h=From:Subject:Date:References:To:In-Reply-To; b=JVoXPwiUSXMpsHmARt2gwmQaJedqjJzeQqX8yOkUyaSVgW9jFyze4YVOjBSDhGYyF 7VDB5gpBEskJYFnm+hAZDFjFJ2sZlE85qbQy5dQcMfzu224frgLXyzf/voSmeZ2Ntj Il/Wl9JlGKarfbIxye85PcKuZpvHgDNs/apvdQdE= From: Benno Overeinder Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 14:55:31 +0100 References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> To: v6ops@ietf.org, Stuart Cheshire , Philip Homburg In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <0C3EC428-1A3C-45F5-B1EA-CACAF8B7CB5C@NLnetLabs.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 13:55:46 -0000 Hi all, A bit late to chime in, but maybe still a useful and relevant = contribution to the discussion. > On 16 Mar 2017, at 21:07, Stuart Cheshire wrote: >=20 > On 13 Mar 2017, at 05:49, Philip Homburg = wrote: >=20 >> In my opinion, there is no justification for declaring a single = threaded C application that uses getaddrinfo non-compliant. >>=20 >> So this draft doesn't address my concerns. Just calling getaddrinfo = should be enough. >=20 > You might think just calling getaddrinfo() should be enough, but = it=E2=80=99s not. >=20 > You are free to write a single-threaded C application that uses = synchronous blocking calls if you like, and it might work okay on = Ethernet, but it would give a horrible user-experience on a mobile = device with wireless networking (and for that reason your app would fail = Apple app review and it would not be allowed on the iPhone, for failing = to achieve even minimal usability standards). >=20 > We=E2=80=99re not telling you how you should write your app. >=20 > But we are publishing a specification that gives guidance about how to = write a good app, that gives a good user experience. (You=E2=80=99re not = forced to follow that guidance, and you don=E2=80=99t have to if you = don=E2=80=99t want to.) Thanks, I can second this as one of the partners in the getdns API = project [1]. =20 First I like to mention that getdns API provides a modern *asynchronous* = DNS API. And although the getdns API is not a standard, the design = process of the getdns API specification [2] has similarities with a = standardisation process. In the specification [2] you can also read = what the design considerations were. Talking with a handful of = application developers about the requirements of a modern API, a first = version of the API was published. Public feedback was provided (during = presentations, email list, etc.) and incorporated, and implementers of = the API also contributed feedback and improvements. The goals and results of the getdns API and library are similar to what = Stuart mentioned above: the API (hopefully) provides a means to write a = good application, i.e. using a high-level DNS resolution API with much = functionality and good user experience. =E2=80=94 Benno [1] https://getdnsapi.net [2] https://getdnsapi.net/documentation/spec/ --=20 Benno J. Overeinder NLnet Labs http://www.nlnetlabs.nl/ From nobody Wed Mar 22 08:08:40 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3834A126C25 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 07:56:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vR89EM9o4MHE for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 07:56:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x230.google.com (mail-vk0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BABD5129495 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 07:56:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x230.google.com with SMTP id j64so112636320vkg.3 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 07:56:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=i5d4pQlX4dBnYxyrr3/Ea7kCS/pAQ5kOhucCsKGIokU=; b=E0HdSCL/h+DIBcyRYt4Yqi+6XZjmm09LiNZ48OsaI0PBKQp2w2kmFQrgBPlx3ZENXL 29d6B3QD/ImNVB/Yci/yDkNXiFSdT1YVGTat26M7lsWAZc6XUA8eHAYZ82NkAGk5WWdc Q380dvwWzTBZenoTGFfUvKdP9U0Nt2kjscCN3c/2mfuHDVa04Ax9KSzI9yCQ5Zqgrhy6 8NqMaXPgB/MZNNAfhUc4rfsKejwNn50wJ9LPm2lMe3sN+tzh46jo8AnYjSPd0rZnY08N 0Q6mTePztDfi4Mnganh8C9z+z/S7L8THavgG7NSwJwcpukhIvQa2bqxZ9xwcMBhY6n5g hDww== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=i5d4pQlX4dBnYxyrr3/Ea7kCS/pAQ5kOhucCsKGIokU=; b=SgDn8T014eSpf2BjNbwsq99bGMnxkObf3zalPR2zlsk/TK8R4mOdvPJay+ikmaAHA7 9LhRKDJzYuV6unnj15qBVhomzNSJJUJhQBPcFuThNqnxXrRGo7+v9ymmO6jpI0hMROdn c/BEpIf5VqobAxxN3x6QyGF75J/mGqJoBKFD9VZaQbb9/aWvacVhOVXmaQKnQNcV35fI cxDU3ZsirfuQvC+VbBRqxXYCOFlaNKzG0cuiJ5pCNzdK5HXTPNtWnADvBaptPQJeaXOs xvxbZAIG2j4JRgh50FMbZvAfh8jJgDao85MDLnqLAAEH5xcpv9l2iuhl1IVWZfe2CZXU ANqA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1B9GBSnhTsEc5Lbw7bzoLZtBN8sHkqIFPCwVlkd2/anrkqxcPKPw86zQU1jCcqOchNVAd3Lt59odDrXg4l X-Received: by 10.31.185.73 with SMTP id j70mr6834387vkf.102.1490194602632; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 07:56:42 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.155.211 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 07:56:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170315034622.0EAB566D1CED@rock.dv.isc.org> References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> <20170315034622.0EAB566D1CED@rock.dv.isc.org> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:56:21 +0900 Message-ID: To: Mark Andrews Cc: David Schinazi , IPv6 Operations Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11439f3cf013b5054b52f76e Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 14:56:50 -0000 --001a11439f3cf013b5054b52f76e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Wed, Mar 15, 2017 at 12:46 PM, Mark Andrews wrote: > Happy Eyeballs was never about having the absolute fastest time to > connect. It was about establishing a connection in a reasonable > amount of time in presence of network / server failures without > having ridiciously long failover delays. > I think this is just a naming issue. Happy Eyeballs was about avoiding broken IPv6 connections. Period. In fact, the very first words in RFC 6555 are "When a server's IPv4 path and protocol are working, but the server's IPv6 path and protocol are not working...". What is written in this draft does much more than that, and calling it "happy eyeballs" is sort of insultingly simplistic. Perhaps just drop the words "happy eyeballs" and reposition the draft as a best current practice to provide a good user experience in a dual-stack Internet? I think it's extremely hard to argue that waiting for an A query when you have an AAAA in cache (or vice versa) is going to reduce latency or improve user experience. You can use getaddrinfo if you want, but you're going to pay the price in terms of latency. I wouldn't call that a best practice. --001a11439f3cf013b5054b52f76e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, Mar 15, 2017 at 12:46 PM, Mark Andrews <marka@isc.org> wrote= :
Happy Eyeballs was n= ever about having the absolute fastest time to
connect.=C2=A0 It was about establishing a connection in a reasonable
amount of time in presence of network / server failures without
having ridiciously long failover delays.

I think this is just a naming issue. Happy Eyeballs was about avoiding br= oken IPv6 connections. Period. In fact, the very first words in RFC 6555 ar= e "When a server's IPv4 path and protocol are working, but the ser= ver's IPv6 path and protocol are not working...".

What is written in this draft does much more than that, and callin= g it "happy eyeballs" is sort of insultingly simplistic. Perhaps = just drop the words "happy eyeballs" and reposition the draft as = a best current practice to provide a good user experience in a dual-stack I= nternet?

I think it's extremely hard to ar= gue that waiting for an A query when you have an AAAA in cache (or vice ver= sa) is going to reduce latency or improve user experience. You can use geta= ddrinfo if you want, but you're going to pay the price in terms of late= ncy. I wouldn't call that a best practice.
--001a11439f3cf013b5054b52f76e-- From nobody Wed Mar 22 08:08:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B151129495 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:04:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GgusKzV72n7k for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22c.google.com (mail-pf0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B9FD126DD9 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:04:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id p189so70582764pfp.1 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:04:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=DW7Jz9f/DwTDTh5OoxVWjNBZM4OjsVmiUH0NVuoPOn8=; b=pHq4ISKY8f+R1Dy7uOmc7EkhW3npvnUWV8m7Xfnu5isTQrwnveKW5k++SvxOCpwOBt h8OW54Ipnv+arCSMXXVCj7ZXzjdKfbzWQR8ck+5Gh4cnZmWmd9DP8d0LQp5hc4zp19nj ++zHeG8E75wnUD/csnW865374pZzeLMwZNKdd9hX/h+I6CM6nqWRQJ1SVoAJ6+Amkyc/ hRnQWmlI1SCHic8e1tz/74NCE3UScCjUoM3hY+XaVKMgK2tjyw1A1vUW6N7CQew5jRTN fvNyJtWh4zf0veu1cXZMHVUXaOPLWXurhQ9YfP6VQPvs7c1NuTBavNvPGyjiiiTxl9br iXLQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=DW7Jz9f/DwTDTh5OoxVWjNBZM4OjsVmiUH0NVuoPOn8=; b=XIErCiHh5zY6fvVbkmZxo/VwG8RCogcLgg2vnRQEp9TW3QG56Nh6UBAqFwIzi6FR/a VjHkd6PJ3zADcKyq1gnIQZomZ1oa8GqjTe30YzbNJ/uoviPQ7z9+vWNLqeV97nuPi4Rs Cg1W2SDYRw7ieypRemXHLnN+G2GG0sSElePIY9GKRHLbaJI6E7fixRMu77FTdKCV2Z1C eo+iTqXLmm7MYIjz7rGb+AMXWhGpRiLpwvs3sq7BJRNdYi59Q6lfy2/iZRY7S94QrsVZ wYc1dS+iZEUs4v/ZZ7ZA+lqV7mQ0Mr9EI5eZxIOtYEggDFzd70UnySZnBSW7m9mmu174 YJXA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0NzTVBE2bF2xRvIBUxwcCAqqE/INsJm2NJX5d/YK5l9YTOcqBF8+S5mtRPW87TWQ== X-Received: by 10.99.56.20 with SMTP id f20mr23501808pga.167.1490195059701; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:04:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.2.107] (50-193-53-102-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.193.53.102]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v86sm4627737pfa.86.2017.03.22.08.04.18 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:04:18 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:04:17 -0700 Cc: Mark Andrews , IPv6 Operations Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7ED60D6D-ED70-4543-8F8C-B670A71B44D3@gmail.com> References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> <20170315034622.0EAB566D1CED@rock.dv.isc.org> To: Lorenzo Colitti X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:04:22 -0000 > On Mar 22, 2017, at 7:56 AM, Lorenzo Colitti = wrote: >=20 > I think it's extremely hard to argue that waiting for an A query when = you have an AAAA in cache (or vice versa) is going to reduce latency or = improve user experience. You can use getaddrinfo if you want, but you're = going to pay the price in terms of latency. I wouldn't call that a best = practice. I must be missing something. If you already know the AAAA, fine. If = you're using the resolver's cache, what API gets you an IPv6 address = other than getaddrinfo? From nobody Wed Mar 22 08:15:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F3538129548 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:15:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jvzFRxRcR2zL for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22d.google.com (mail-vk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 40AA4126C22 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:15:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id j64so113191315vkg.3 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:15:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=oByw8eyVEEeF3LiffCBHO+LkdPPgbE5gthHM9CXF5Rw=; b=YF2kthunPEczM6TkRHDyqDT3rrSBisOlz2qX8Uw4fUoPAz3DdCCEXVF8DdF6QOqrXd YfA5/OSNdYdg0UInoLhZ4MtTr+SdokDfROoC2M3/akV87JAn1EHPdtvTAPLk8+fsGQrP IBZNoV5/5IXE+WiWwkxHJ0QrUkvDOyP2g1RUWQQNV5aPDN3+q+oq5cA6d5JbZUM58cBG F6lWCLVrOL//JtUXTQVhv9pD+F3WiJk+So18mtwasxrJxWdCRmrpdMHHcovbQBNP9J1X B6Fdo1czExOeg0QRhqaPZGHywplMZBxzt9sZO0yCeKhGCKbfEGBE7fCWMaoX5gRUZrdW k5hg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=oByw8eyVEEeF3LiffCBHO+LkdPPgbE5gthHM9CXF5Rw=; b=iVAKVW3yWPdDUeANLpa4Pz9Q7vq2pJuXHiQFa790gD0TV/BeiL65IHNbqTXzC1GwlW nHlr51xem3iWEMQL8xi+aX/R9rAa4k7dCCaT5y0bZ5tcPQPxgfL5+dNdThZy2lUoXfrJ RsnFQQBkUbIl0DenlYyIwDCz8IyaSxRrHv/Loe8M1u65zkRLa7etGIiRDyTXZOk8p+8k jT0xstliUN36s9biqKYNKU2U5b/qSQ/n7UWY6drG1q018cDnqhZx7coaZtgqqj+POdIj OzbsVBuPNCvF6qbVHykMaii3t9hUTWuQrCZVQc79PSXhULi4GxtzVd3Szy15BRNeTmXR /mfA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1d93tI8NoukBR4CqR3jS0rqmuu8tpvumJqDUF6yd2rLGoEBa6KR23ty84uiKfkg4Qd51rxjqmuybTIGvJr X-Received: by 10.31.68.197 with SMTP id r188mr9387359vka.45.1490195737015; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:15:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.155.211 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:15:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <7ED60D6D-ED70-4543-8F8C-B670A71B44D3@gmail.com> References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> <20170315034622.0EAB566D1CED@rock.dv.isc.org> <7ED60D6D-ED70-4543-8F8C-B670A71B44D3@gmail.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 00:15:16 +0900 Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Cc: Mark Andrews , IPv6 Operations Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1138efd08d8530054b533b82 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:15:40 -0000 --001a1138efd08d8530054b533b82 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 12:04 AM, Fred Baker wrote: > > I think it's extremely hard to argue that waiting for an A query when > you have an AAAA in cache (or vice versa) is going to reduce latency or > improve user experience. You can use getaddrinfo if you want, but you're > going to pay the price in terms of latency. I wouldn't call that a best > practice. > > I must be missing something. If you already know the AAAA, fine. If you're > using the resolver's cache, what API gets you an IPv6 address other than > getaddrinfo? > You don't have to use getaddrinfo to do AAAA lookups. You can use your own code, or even pass binary blobs to res_send if you want. getaddrinfo is not very smart. It keeps trying until it has answers for everything you asked it to do, and then it returns everything. That means that if the A query is in cache and the AAAA query is not, then you have to wait for the AAAA query to succeed. I think the key point here is that integrating the DNS resolver retry loops with the connection attempts provide latency savings. --001a1138efd08d8530054b533b82 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= hu, Mar 23, 2017 at 12:04 AM, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com<= /a>> wrote:
> I think = it's extremely hard to argue that waiting for an A query when you have = an AAAA in cache (or vice versa) is going to reduce latency or improve user= experience. You can use getaddrinfo if you want, but you're going to p= ay the price in terms of latency. I wouldn't call that a best practice.=

I must be missing something. If you already know the AAAA, fine. If = you're using the resolver's cache, what API gets you an IPv6 addres= s other than getaddrinfo?

You don't= have to use getaddrinfo to do AAAA lookups. You can use your own code, or = even pass binary blobs to res_send if you want.

ge= taddrinfo is not very smart. It keeps trying until it has answers for every= thing you asked it to do, and then it returns everything. That means that i= f the A query is in cache and the AAAA query is not, then you have to wait = for the AAAA query to succeed.

I think the key poi= nt here is that integrating the DNS resolver retry loops with the connectio= n attempts provide latency savings.
--001a1138efd08d8530054b533b82-- From nobody Wed Mar 22 08:19:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 22B9B127241 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:18:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=instituut-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nv28GYFVqKKX for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:18:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x234.google.com (mail-wm0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 147CB129494 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:18:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x234.google.com with SMTP id t189so41007784wmt.1 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:18:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=instituut-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=bXOkXYOPgibfHsOU224tOzhB6B4jyLvnnGzUWfwzXkI=; b=M7caIVX8LYLT8Oo9+X3ethegdABzZqe9s7edii9SxJHFN6FQcJOQI1J9rwfHqEsgd4 osGohY0c8UrKLpmvwoD3ezIqv2E7/rRU+wRK7a3dUAWo5Jl5WbDZQ9YMliHnCz3poeuk BT1DMN0OzteDPVSgogfZStlbWg+ejzEU1aRIj9bTZeOJJQmr7/bsRH/+ElmqfVPPPk1w knR4ioAzOLC81CHGX2jYfXZhVKqrwO1yqVsz6u75znUkv2+yWjl4MQQOmd1TNrbZy6LX JqggOW9vJlvVPH1obcqJDFmVzOLX7KCfy/K0i6R/8iczM/xq9CsPfYO5wKhQR+ATysER 90mg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=bXOkXYOPgibfHsOU224tOzhB6B4jyLvnnGzUWfwzXkI=; b=CBBPaBTWuYPjTO8CuZyva412OE9ycML3lz7E+NlzlkZzqeTUgfuBLcwov36fuNct4e wxSGqXR+2kVAEwJqvhPsYksbBZNc5VExJoRKOdZJfLfGaDrIas9d/EuYkf96D9PpqZku Rx3UGizF4kmBwCF1P1fANPlMVR5wteu0TMpDHWKo3q4Wu3QSq4yYoBkoixCCMR2qvGyj On2jwBe1Tz9htPyDmGh3jqGn2kMHdy9JMRGr4ePMaeC9WuMXjo2OgVKxNVlkUrz4s6ve VY4deHhV5jY6GxZO2w+bB2vCXsMaXVVqB90bvkQypH0gt0LqVhupu+1BKwq4Eh4Bbll1 VYaA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3GdVYzQ8dtzoyf2ujxa/19lqOQJwsWvUeR5y4EizVanD+aurC37NmwE4H+FoY+TZdl+835tHH+OzMQ9A== X-Received: by 10.28.137.208 with SMTP id l199mr7991058wmd.65.1490195930455; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:18:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.182.162 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:18:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [88.128.80.130] In-Reply-To: References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> <20170315034622.0EAB566D1CED@rock.dv.isc.org> <7ED60D6D-ED70-4543-8F8C-B670A71B44D3@gmail.com> From: Job Snijders Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 16:18:49 +0100 Message-ID: To: Lorenzo Colitti Cc: Fred Baker , IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:18:59 -0000 Perhaps of interest to this group: https://blog.powerdns.com/2014/05/21/a-surprising-discovery-on-converting-ipv6-addresses-we-no-longer-prefer-getaddrinfo/ Kind regards, Job On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 12:04 AM, Fred Baker > wrote: >> >> > I think it's extremely hard to argue that waiting for an A query when >> > you have an AAAA in cache (or vice versa) is going to reduce latency or >> > improve user experience. You can use getaddrinfo if you want, but you're >> > going to pay the price in terms of latency. I wouldn't call that a best >> > practice. >> >> I must be missing something. If you already know the AAAA, fine. If you're >> using the resolver's cache, what API gets you an IPv6 address other than >> getaddrinfo? > > > You don't have to use getaddrinfo to do AAAA lookups. You can use your own > code, or even pass binary blobs to res_send if you want. > > getaddrinfo is not very smart. It keeps trying until it has answers for > everything you asked it to do, and then it returns everything. That means > that if the A query is in cache and the AAAA query is not, then you have to > wait for the AAAA query to succeed. > > I think the key point here is that integrating the DNS resolver retry loops > with the connection attempts provide latency savings. > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Wed Mar 22 08:26:22 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A0B112949A for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:26:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.002 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.002 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rdA74BboaJuz for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:26:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3A6E129548 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 08:26:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 551ACAF; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 16:26:13 +0100 (CET) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1490196373; bh=48f4huVfhAJE+zMQiHqVPAHhJAXl+zVebt8CMtrj11w=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=cWwMYfYcGiVq4dlZIwTBHSw98taomqMYBt5Ww6dHzaeGbKgBiCah7mgx7xcQDD5/Y l8nXP2P+mbMU32b5MRgpYs+LESdTvWq1EmB977Olq8+x7YMiozUUZwhr8PYCndhlV0 5Da/xuSz1pmP20Iv80NUyAmQSfHbSFtclMr7/G64= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 51EB6AE; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 16:26:13 +0100 (CET) Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 16:26:13 +0100 (CET) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Job Snijders cc: IPv6 Operations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> <20170315034622.0EAB566D1CED@rock.dv.isc.org> <7ED60D6D-ED70-4543-8F8C-B670A71B44D3@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; format=flowed; charset=US-ASCII Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:26:20 -0000 On Wed, 22 Mar 2017, Job Snijders wrote: > Perhaps of interest to this group: > > https://blog.powerdns.com/2014/05/21/a-surprising-discovery-on-converting-ipv6-addresses-we-no-longer-prefer-getaddrinfo/ There is work going on coming up with better APIs than the 90ties socket ones and getaddrinfo. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-trammell-taps-post-sockets-00 If this is of interest, TAPS WG has presentation from other efforts as well. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Wed Mar 22 09:24:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F267129A43 for ; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-juniper-net; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=o9WEFZpuTlNO84wDZK6aqGe67y1Yx/frowyRpEgSBtE=; b=AcGWH1FRz4eMMHXXZZZVMa4cbdAhwb4M7EwbEp52DJUK/jWsyEIE2EDZ7XFlQypHd0bsvDJ8i0s1Z3UdnzHIYndvreqcBW92+ttGMAITYBG+9u5jYT3oJEVvv7v9Bwx4O0nWQc4EUkAMzq7QBQBangUS/qZHPLiXB+SbzcyCE2o= Received: from BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.164.23.21) by BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.164.23.21) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.991.4; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 16:24:08 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.164.23.21]) by BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.164.23.21]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.013; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 16:24:08 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: IPv6 Ops WG Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-02 Thread-Index: AdKjJhGQY5pAI/PHRFaFoUctqzGS6g== Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 16:24:08 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.13] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0501MB2051; 7:RQeJ2SEyIhBEH9f5jsR7gTn5HqDrO31u6K6VqCsW/GcL3+XO/gNYHesSJdunm3j7ZPq2jzKy2iQdlYh6wR3EV0iC5j6XKTsDXll/8EZlEzP2FOIGV3b4R5q9PpGSGPam/Smli62QhOje8VTw9Hrkvx3lpvffBAlk1AsEPbn2VV1D7L+uSk3zBZ6zXLCPv5zrpYsGa+KAYSA46kr3se6TPM2qflek374bbgB9DuuQhi0+PlJjpyRl0vM9gxYQ7HmFpuy7Aw7M3vjDBJS2yoxePrMtX7LQAPp/LNSf6H4yqllqfo1u8JnxtX8S9iNN6lzZNtut38616y4NxGcMHt8QsQ== x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 3c44a254-b22b-4736-6d04-08d4713fddd4 x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(2017030254075)(48565401081); SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2051; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(6040375)(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(3002001)(10201501046)(6055026)(6041248)(20161123564025)(20161123555025)(20161123560025)(20161123562025)(20161123558025)(6072148); SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2051; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2051; x-forefront-prvs: 02543CD7CD x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(39860400002)(39850400002)(39410400002)(39450400003)(39840400002)(50986999)(9686003)(99286003)(81166006)(7696004)(110136004)(305945005)(6116002)(66066001)(3846002)(54356999)(102836003)(8676002)(7736002)(230783001)(33656002)(74316002)(38730400002)(6916009)(5660300001)(55016002)(122556002)(86362001)(3280700002)(6506006)(53936002)(6436002)(3660700001)(25786009)(8936002)(2906002)(189998001)(77096006); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2051; H:BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Mar 2017 16:24:08.2485 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0501MB2051 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-02 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 16:24:12 -0000 Folks, The following are a few comments on draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-02: 1) Consider adding an appendix that summarizes requirements. An entry in th= is appendix might look like the following: REQ 1 : To support automated router configuration, IPv6 routers and routers= SHOULD support YANG and SNMP configuration, including (but not limited to)...... (From Section 3.1 of this document) 2) Some of the requirements put forth in this document are IPv6 specific. F= or example, "SLAAC SHOULD be enabled by default on all router interfaces". = Others requirements are applicable to IPv6 and IPv6. For example, "TELNET = SHOULD be disabled by default, but should be available for operational purp= oses as required or as configured by the operator". I wonder whether generi= c requirements belong in an document on requirements for IPv6 routers? 3) The title of Section 5.3 is "Maximum Transmission Unit and Jumbo Frames"= . However, there is no further mention of Jumbo Frames. Could we explore Ju= mbo's possibly with an eye towards deprecation. 4) A few sections (e.g. 5.1) don't contain any requirements. Will they cont= ain a requirement in a later revision? Do they support requirements in anot= her section? If not, I wonder if they contribute to the document. /hatless Ron Bonica From nobody Wed Mar 22 10:00:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E31D129A8C for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 10:00:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.922 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.922 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4gARNr99UnQw for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 10:00:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from NAM02-SN1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-sn1nam02on0136.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.36.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 96CF1127601 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 10:00:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=junipernetworks.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector1-juniper-net; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version; bh=bmd6TAV0nFsRXUkWH61pRT6Ib49J6uwjq9muvgjDcKA=; b=dVDp3gIMZZCTcRnYigY0p5i9V9U6oKJixqwkxAR7p3g+o2+zT8BEmbwY8p79/QPDo3DRx9vfbNW62pZ9lv43a5sjNlN19VJTnw2qBo2N0SpcJZjTRjq2HGSE+WdhJPM50yoqeb2Dc6YkQSo7N6oOKZqMGWEtfGAcfUH8N/t9h14= Received: from BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.164.23.21) by BLUPR0501MB2052.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (10.164.23.22) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.991.4; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 17:00:51 +0000 Received: from BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.164.23.21]) by BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([10.164.23.21]) with mapi id 15.01.0991.013; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 17:00:51 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: IPv6 Ops WG Thread-Topic: Comments on draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-01 Thread-Index: AdKjLdyen+v+SEpcRBePs4KESfAvUg== Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 17:00:51 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: ietf.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;ietf.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net; x-originating-ip: [66.129.241.13] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; BLUPR0501MB2052; 7:jGJrINWs0eBuykZirVRVHdFJRWL2PZ2F9afoAWzcUdTOkl0Ua390Bdg/DvGm+DaVDXJgURroNMbfu2NLRiMzpcxRd8fxH7Zl/bIdy4rANsadwH2a8Yov0YG9caQAi23v46grs+KQrtAP1ORvljsMTgkrVgflGjNThy7T/i1UFF516loZReloyMLLmyKVPf3c0KQbGXEZ7OzcRTYvir3WWE/XmT0Hb2WGDHt7SFQUdk5fClTQ3CiromtNAbXk/FToFkN96jkITu8MzBSWquaEtVmYduMyFfOvqQfLFwW6ymaUctnztqlCFXJkK214RR3//qOhRn2biFZIRLUQNNZl4g== x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 0e3f6100-db60-4abc-ca8e-08d47144fedb x-ms-office365-filtering-ht: Tenant x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(2017030254075)(48565401081); SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2052; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:; x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(6040375)(601004)(2401047)(5005006)(8121501046)(10201501046)(3002001)(6055026)(6041248)(20161123564025)(20161123555025)(20161123560025)(20161123562025)(20161123558025)(6072148); SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2052; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2052; x-forefront-prvs: 02543CD7CD x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10019020)(6009001)(39850400002)(39840400002)(39450400003)(39860400002)(39410400002)(33656002)(189998001)(5660300001)(7696004)(7736002)(305945005)(6116002)(50986999)(102836003)(66066001)(3846002)(8676002)(6916009)(8936002)(53936002)(55016002)(9686003)(110136004)(99286003)(38730400002)(122556002)(6506006)(86362001)(6436002)(25786009)(81166006)(2906002)(230783001)(3280700002)(77096006)(3660700001)(74316002)(54356999); DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BLUPR0501MB2052; H:BLUPR0501MB2051.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 22 Mar 2017 17:00:51.1512 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLUPR0501MB2052 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Comments on draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 17:00:54 -0000 Jordi, Thanks for writing this draft. I have only one comment.=20 In a few places, you say that "The CE router SHOULD support foo", where foo= might be 464xlat, MAP-E, MAP-T, DS-LITE, etc. I am wondering if this is an= appropriate use of the 2119 keyword.=20 Are these technologies required, unless there is a good reason not to imple= ment them. If a vendor wants to address one market segment and not another,= is sufficient reason not to implement. = /hatless = Ron From nobody Wed Mar 22 15:09:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5E045129BC7 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:08:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1hvAOmk3SK0n for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0D32C1292D3 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:08:48 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1490220527; x=1490825327; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=rFDx0HOcPQAqSOuBWfuGQ2r6y5fV0VSkDRVyNwRwang=; b=VjGm4WsvI99ZL z6Q5SlfhF+pcan5LPGUVh+Ab/YCVC3yQwHi1scD5NcPIJ0AOUMq5Mqt7MWV/qQtx KgJq1mPvPooSVyOfisZ1hgxqVC237QspqWOBfIjAOpBL2G8vFZ7MX5PBeEXDtk63 jzpHqZfeQh/OuFs+cYA9QuYkITPT6M= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=Mfvt6tcClRf1TKj2SIjEWIWmiLv0i6n6SY6CQY5w7RQxBpvjk9IYCL7ZgeGC QotAx27HAE+6f7HE78mUfsaoB1v+pOOXjgCBjV84kBTv5zVkejYjzm8dJ Y4FSLTWx3ELdcPi7kJJqTBAOjWI7VwNWzPG5AjW2ZrnmigxXMCDw4g=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:08:47 +0100 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:08:42 +0100 Received: from [10.10.10.99] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005393720.msg for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:08:42 +0100 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:170322:md50005393720::v7bcYHmyyzQjPtnY:00006JGk X-Return-Path: prvs=12549852b0=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:08:39 +0100 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: IPv6 Ops WG Message-ID: <2096FB08-9995-4BD0-95DE-492DEF949248@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Comments on draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-01 Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:08:51 -0000 Hi Ron, I=E2=80=99ve followed exactly the same wording that was already used in the= previous version of this document, and in fact, asked in the mailing list = if we want to change some to MAY and others to MUST, etc. I think the concl= usion was to keep SHOULD. I also checked (and reported it in the list) how much takes in the code (wh= ich is open source, so nothing =E2=80=9Cnew=E2=80=9D to write), to implemen= t one or several of those transitions mechanism, and it was a few Kbytes. https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg25470.html Regarding the different market segments, I think I=E2=80=99ve covered that = in this message: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg25533.html I=E2=80=99m already working on the slides for Chicago, and I plan to provid= e some more detail/inputs on both of those topics, so any new inputs are we= lcome so I can increase the info in the slides if needed. You may be right, I really don't know if we are % following the 2119, we ma= y want to discuss this if we heard other opinions? Regards, Jordi =20 -----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Ron Bonica Responder a: Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 22 de marzo de 2017, 18:00 Para: IPv6 Ops WG Asunto: [v6ops] Comments on draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis-01 Jordi, =20 Thanks for writing this draft. I have only one comment.=20 =20 In a few places, you say that "The CE router SHOULD support foo", where= foo might be 464xlat, MAP-E, MAP-T, DS-LITE, etc. I am wondering if this i= s an appropriate use of the 2119 keyword.=20 =20 Are these technologies required, unless there is a good reason not to i= mplement them. If a vendor wants to address one market segment and not anot= her, is sufficient reason not to implement. =20 =20 = /hatless = Ron =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Wed Mar 22 15:22:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FEA8129514 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:22:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CSw7-rnuamba for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22b.google.com (mail-io0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 32FE5127735 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:22:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id z13so72847613iof.2 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:22:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=bIH69a+Q2pz3uw7NPxnRQKKFG1knVLTL9MzFxfv0L6o=; b=AjM6OmhJuy7KkBO8pug0SafO6zu4pd/2b60mHE02BkK4ZFo0Rub5wRXi7+/6bfJIhl uMj5JgbciXL8Q4vWzWdJxVrjdku2+Uy2IeF2TTjQ5WqqcXKa/qIU7cPcMDCx+glQ/hDz a4Knlrgm8qGvVJFkVGwMidJyytjWrvpu9qfnMmGoOzyfJ/HqiDwS5xfS9iYotADsJ1dl 05UankFT98OARcn00hsLSVWwk4C1LggE3UH4MD5GGgAtyxKWw/BmEkGUsAWh/hZnEoVC UisXDscqj4wnem0wuGdwUL1Of1cVkjaHFiXeqF3+w2k26rGet1eboN+Kx6SB57eRZhed slcg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=bIH69a+Q2pz3uw7NPxnRQKKFG1knVLTL9MzFxfv0L6o=; b=uJdJSJb3L5miggmw9YYy6AnpPKSLbkj3pU4n2BzZV1DDrjwx5XPA8ZsiSf35GI1FK5 3aMilGCP7gf+A3bLqdGQ/XDCQki7H2+n9dO/HRcmlj48HQFEjVucVW6moQDv4D83Sfhs Sn9KAWgeDqkIiMfd/gJc77LAZnPAft1QslwU5RcEt8eqINExP1nTuRlmsEU9XQnqxegF 5lhJM6HFYa/PY7mgexCYIN4jdFj1OSZ5C0NMLAiUbDzU3b/IjFJJkgFWAreaPt4Casze OgAoOYZE2NSXVRmRXVTMFMwbY6b0EeJ0E+dgwt3TBLp8t3JtDVM4Z5qqfxzMGUDJ7g4H TxTA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2AtOuVPq96uu7wgvztehhdhz6Y+owyuhkZ8bgwptbgqFJyXHN1ZUoR847oIl4S6Q== X-Received: by 10.107.134.36 with SMTP id i36mr46927281iod.192.1490221329597; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.11.95] (50-76-68-137-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.76.68.137]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s21sm787246ite.0.2017.03.22.15.22.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:22:08 -0700 (PDT) To: Job Snijders , Lorenzo Colitti References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> <20170315034622.0EAB566D1CED@rock.dv.isc.org> <7ED60D6D-ED70-4543-8F8C-B670A71B44D3@gmail.com> Cc: IPv6 Operations From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <04a8b752-b5ae-020b-134e-aa365fea4261@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:22:15 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:22:12 -0000 On 23/03/2017 04:18, Job Snijders wrote: > Perhaps of interest to this group: > > https://blog.powerdns.com/2014/05/21/a-surprising-discovery-on-converting-ipv6-addresses-we-no-longer-prefer-getaddrinfo/ What a bizarre idea to use getaddrinfo() for format conversion, when inet_pton() and inet_ntop() exist. My sympathy is limited. Brian > > Kind regards, > > Job > > On Wed, Mar 22, 2017 at 4:15 PM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: >> On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 12:04 AM, Fred Baker >> wrote: >>> >>>> I think it's extremely hard to argue that waiting for an A query when >>>> you have an AAAA in cache (or vice versa) is going to reduce latency or >>>> improve user experience. You can use getaddrinfo if you want, but you're >>>> going to pay the price in terms of latency. I wouldn't call that a best >>>> practice. >>> >>> I must be missing something. If you already know the AAAA, fine. If you're >>> using the resolver's cache, what API gets you an IPv6 address other than >>> getaddrinfo? >> >> >> You don't have to use getaddrinfo to do AAAA lookups. You can use your own >> code, or even pass binary blobs to res_send if you want. >> >> getaddrinfo is not very smart. It keeps trying until it has answers for >> everything you asked it to do, and then it returns everything. That means >> that if the A query is in cache and the AAAA query is not, then you have to >> wait for the AAAA query to succeed. >> >> I think the key point here is that integrating the DNS resolver retry loops >> with the connection attempts provide latency savings. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Wed Mar 22 15:22:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E0DCB12951D for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:22:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dZb6EOWnLWki for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C573129B4D for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 15:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1cqoeN-0000DwC; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:22:39 +0100 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <148899860042.20118.391380898590855642.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> <20170315034622.0EAB566D1CED@rock.dv.isc.org> <7ED60D6D-ED70-4543-8F8C-B670A71B44D3@gmail.com> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 23 Mar 2017 00:15:16 +0900 ." Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 23:22:38 +0100 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 22:22:44 -0000 >You don't have to use getaddrinfo to do AAAA lookups. You can use your own >code, or even pass binary blobs to res_send if you want. > >getaddrinfo is not very smart. It keeps trying until it has answers for >everything you asked it to do, and then it returns everything. That means >that if the A query is in cache and the AAAA query is not, then you have to >wait for the AAAA query to succeed. > >I think the key point here is that integrating the DNS resolver retry loops >with the connection attempts provide latency savings. What is next? Is this working group going to specify how SMTP clients should do MX lookups? Why is how to do DNS lookups suddenly something v6ops has to write a BCP about? Next question. If an A record happens to be cached and an operator wants to keep traffic out of expensive CGNAT routers. Do we really want to encourage hosts to connect over IPv4 just because an A record was cached and the AAAA record wasn't? Is that really best current practice? From nobody Wed Mar 22 19:50:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BD79B1294B5 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:50:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.197, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id GaWvqegY47Sj for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qt0-x236.google.com (mail-qt0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400d:c0d::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 086AB12940F for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-qt0-x236.google.com with SMTP id n21so165498691qta.1 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:50:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=7j3xs9k8JJ9wb3cYDtb1EWlHDIvXWBui2oE6dntOLjs=; b=tcvEYdquSXgEVcJt9eFiQK8uDRJVv4gQ7j9BTRqCJVXRQdpLRRJa24iMSGoKQt7DLD /tBUVxEN64TNImthy4Ps5Sl9fmm6I7nlOF3Utafq9JrnbsoZRN8gMpzEj9se4zSLihQx tH+nyLqbEqutROvD+aMWRnruUV8K91vTAYZGUWUmIvbbqKs0mHBslIpiuBlhDs7F0vE/ Wbh9WGbXlgH1hMbay0+t8xV1OLq3NHnU8g0B0ZOGSlgMJ19dcMLV05JBfywMTEIBEiYE ABuN+/hVCi+cFO9CD2DZkRZ+JGK7pC6mtbccxWrcEoQwYDZfkDrLIIvVND1hZfFx+Axp eBfg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:from:date:message-id:subject :to:cc; bh=7j3xs9k8JJ9wb3cYDtb1EWlHDIvXWBui2oE6dntOLjs=; b=l5AIG6qPH63m+kNyfKtHEltADqocOxbkXtvT5kRWCKCCorNSV/ygCVPlKcODDvg29x zwPDdFjXj8qEbGcGppHPDujyTU0+KE+HqK5P2OR78M/Zhtv32cP+RLlC9kH0Uq3Oh3QC qYFt8BWF48x6MkpAVrBW9G0r19J0+4+LkQVVyg0gGtKr0Do7wGT+c9HFKsDdWmLiPxCV 5P7RyqkUotqBo4ZvYjWu2fv9fCcbaTd06jqOtsyiLoD3M5om7GMoe42ZPcdatBo/V7Aa FJt5CKL7amFzSWmIfwy+wsYTCSJ0MNI9NP0xCEESCCxX7GEvi79FYZRkpt1chtlaKcXx WESQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H179d+lOsxJMsbgKJMCkhjNR/P/W/n+74E3pg6QuRupqFdjt6qGVU5vYzyS/xMy4b8NNnyPG6YIty1DXg== X-Received: by 10.237.42.194 with SMTP id t60mr184270qtd.269.1490237453072; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:50:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: jinmei.tatuya@gmail.com Received: by 10.237.61.204 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:50:52 -0700 (PDT) From: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:50:52 -0700 X-Google-Sender-Auth: EAoSnRyouYp42Co3q9jiS21u5kY Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Job Snijders , IPv6 Operations Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] getaddrinfo glitch (Re: An Update to Happy Eyeballs) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 02:50:56 -0000 (I suspect it's now off topic for the HE thread). At Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:22:15 +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > > Perhaps of interest to this group: > > > > https://blog.powerdns.com/2014/05/21/a-surprising-discovery-on-converting-ipv6-addresses-we-no-longer-prefer-getaddrinfo/ > > What a bizarre idea to use getaddrinfo() for format conversion, when > inet_pton() and inet_ntop() exist. > > My sympathy is limited. +1, but (as the blog itself notes) there's at least one thing that (some implementations of) getaddrinf() can do but inet_pton() can't: handle the extended scoped-address format as defined in RFC4007 and set the corresponding zone index to sockaddr_in6.sin6_scope_id. My sympathy is still limited since the blog post seems to suggest another instance of commonly observed trap: overreaction on glitches of one particular implementation (often that's Linux or glibc in my biased experiences). I suspect "talking to the kernel, and enumerating all local IP addresses (!)" is to sort converted addresses per RFC 6724. Obviously it's not necessary if the purpose of the getaddrinfo() call is to just convert textual numeric IPv6 address into a binary form (like the case mentioned in the blog), and, as far as I remember, BSDs implementation of getaddrinfo() doesn't do such an obvious waste. At the very least the blog should point to a specific poor implementation, and, say that even if it's not an inherent defect of getaddrinfo() itself but due to one bad implementation they should give up using it to be portable. -- JINMEI, Tatuya p.s. I have no opinion about whether getaddrinfo() is a good choice for HE. This message is not to defend it in that context. From nobody Wed Mar 22 19:54:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE1931294D0 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:54:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id SJMP0TPAEk9x for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x232.google.com (mail-vk0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0AC95129436 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:54:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x232.google.com with SMTP id r69so29801563vke.2 for ; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:54:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=9B/a/y/d5ImvmKvO+Y09FayUy7g0tCl/kEyT57eiE38=; b=PHU+WgawJZBKZT+zJ0aNwYbW8gcmF2KZ+L9yjSedarhQ/ztR0DG0nrzu1EmKkieiWU Z5M/ai1SUCsPIsKernNGn5Ww8g5tM4Y0v35pDMan4hj9cbkaL/IGasobbyMaonla+9v0 c2ry5rF5ttb6a5Za4J6hYBfW+V+KeNPAAC3/qi1fxQSy0jfI58ov+rHH2Ndcjg2Csbtm 7YQYQ3fC1UsBLFfbhYsV6zVIAQG4Zj+5bAEUwuTOH9GJk0FQUtDE59J1tD6vXrTqj3MB jk5XcwQcWhLRY2BT2Tu10zLbo+b/JMNlrO6UZ3DSqMGHcmD09IuU2OtaSx3PtUjJ0FtJ Ioew== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=9B/a/y/d5ImvmKvO+Y09FayUy7g0tCl/kEyT57eiE38=; b=FbmByROzfk63RcuoywBI3W3+7/o5LZ3pfUifPtqauKxyV/2LZwI+XQVJdt6XrTqAdq rXgM+hlARa7likp0og1LCYqH94/zNnrLXkIFxPWz/i96652Yjm2sQCLn6zp6cAZq8xdW n7hsnKGfKw87WXDBWJ2+V/47BF6TyEHwF3hUMx+MGlU8wNVmGRkB3HyfxdTvZd3d6vYc INh6oEpBbl2tlTPId3HZTuD2GW+kP6aOQleE1+MX7mTqckD0J+E9bhaRiX8cj5btx8kp SNgshsxvl4GZviAGEI7zzpUTDncPABDtGu/tkc8a38fXBjYq2BFnEOOA/DftM9YvSOuP 6lYA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0UbZtcdCU3le9h0GJllTWlltmuHeRGZwWFd927RyqEE5DplV5MJphg027uKVBiOPfbUAJKWDmxtE1QKV6i X-Received: by 10.31.107.93 with SMTP id g90mr80981vkc.155.1490237677908; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:54:37 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.155.211 with HTTP; Wed, 22 Mar 2017 19:54:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 11:54:17 +0900 Message-ID: To: =?UTF-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Job Snijders , IPv6 Operations Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11478dd06ca557054b5cff36 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] getaddrinfo glitch (Re: An Update to Happy Eyeballs) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 02:54:41 -0000 --001a11478dd06ca557054b5cff36 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 11:50 AM, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 wrote: > At the very least the blog should point to a specific poor > implementation, and, say that even if it's not an inherent defect of > getaddrinfo() itself but due to one bad implementation they should > give up using it to be portable. > +1. A better approach for the blog post would have been to say "don't use AI_ADDRCONFIG if all you want to do is convert IP addresses to socket structures, because it doesn't work well on these platforms". --001a11478dd06ca557054b5cff36 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= hu, Mar 23, 2017 at 11:50 AM, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei= @wide.ad.jp> wrote:
At the = very least the blog should point to a specific poor
implementation, and, say that even if it's not an inherent defect of getaddrinfo() itself but due to one bad implementation they should
give up using it to be portable.

+1. A = better approach for the blog post would have been to say "don't us= e AI_ADDRCONFIG if all you want to do is convert IP addresses to socket str= uctures, because it doesn't work well on these platforms".
--001a11478dd06ca557054b5cff36-- From nobody Thu Mar 23 05:07:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 741811315B8 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 05:07:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pQvbJV0U8AVP for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 05:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 01AD61296CF for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 05:07:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DE6C61635 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:07:04 +0100 (CET) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 50E26603D6; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:07:04 +0100 (CET) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id 429B26FA0E; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:07:04 +0100 (CET) Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 13:07:04 +0100 From: Gert Doering To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Job Snijders , Lorenzo Colitti , IPv6 Operations Message-ID: <20170323120704.GR2367@Space.Net> References: <92EEB875-288D-4CF9-B81F-3B5C8EA49F53@apple.com> <20170315034622.0EAB566D1CED@rock.dv.isc.org> <7ED60D6D-ED70-4543-8F8C-B670A71B44D3@gmail.com> <04a8b752-b5ae-020b-134e-aa365fea4261@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <04a8b752-b5ae-020b-134e-aa365fea4261@gmail.com> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] An Update to Happy Eyeballs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 12:07:09 -0000 Hi, On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 11:22:15AM +1300, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 23/03/2017 04:18, Job Snijders wrote: > > Perhaps of interest to this group: > > > > https://blog.powerdns.com/2014/05/21/a-surprising-discovery-on-converting-ipv6-addresses-we-no-longer-prefer-getaddrinfo/ > > What a bizarre idea to use getaddrinfo() for format conversion, when inet_pton() and inet_ntop() exist. Well, whoever designed that API obviously thought it would be something clever. Otherwise, how do you explain AI_NUMERICHOST? AI_NUMERICHOST If the AI_NUMERICHOST bit is set, it indi- cates that hostname should be treated as a numeric string defining an IPv4 or IPv6 address and no name resolution should be attempted. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Thu Mar 23 10:40:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5FC781294C5 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:40:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=apple.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gBxVrNufU_63 for ; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:40:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-in23.apple.com (mail-out23.apple.com [17.171.2.33]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2A122129706 for ; 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Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:40:09 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: 11ab0217-0fc2f9a000007447-3f-58d40879f7de Received: from kencur (kencur.apple.com [17.151.62.38]) by relay3.apple.com (Apple SCV relay) with SMTP id C4.E7.03951.87804D85; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:40:08 -0700 (PDT) MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Boundary_(ID_3ZVOUS1jVnnV3661Ji9zEA)" Received: from [17.153.58.80] (unknown [17.153.58.80]) by kencur.apple.com (Oracle Communications Messaging Server 8.0.1.2.20170210 64bit (built Feb 10 2017)) with ESMTPSA id <0ONA00JDD3QU5P50@kencur.apple.com>; Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:40:08 -0700 (PDT) Sender: dschinazi@apple.com From: David Schinazi Message-id: Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 10:40:08 -0700 In-reply-to: Cc: =?utf-8?B?56We5piO6YGU5ZOJ?= , Job Snijders , IPv6 Operations To: Lorenzo Colitti References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3251) X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFnrOLMWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUi2FAYrFvJcSXC4MhsGYtFuw+wWTyd+pPV Yv3pd4wWp4/tZXZg8ViwqdRjyZKfTB7Lu/U89j49xhbAEsVlk5Kak1mWWqRvl8CV8WP+cZaC JQoVPe8vszcwfpfuYuTkkBAwkbh86w1LFyMXh5DAPkaJlZOeMsEkrs7ZzAqRWMEocWTNOzaQ BK+AoMSPyfdYQGxmgTCJq7OPM0MUNTJJTG88zAySEBaQlui6cBeom4ODTUBL4sAaI4heG4nN DSsZIUo8JXreLQBbxiKgKrHk9xIwm1MgWGLSlneMEPOrJD703QcbKSKgIfFg3XEmiF0zGSVm b7zFDHGprMSn5z/ZQRISAvPYJXY86GObwCg0C8mxs5AcOwvoJmYBdYkpU3IhwtoST95dYIWw 1SQW/l7EhCy+gJFtFaNwbmJmjm5mnpGxXmJBQU6qXnJ+7iZGUMysZhLfwfj5teEhRgEORiUe 3h8clyOEWBPLiitzDzFKc7AoifPOFAEKCaQnlqRmp6YWpBbFF5XmpBYfYmTi4JRqYNQ5vcQk 0viC/a55fvIbWsyaTl4L4d7qsYyDxU785STu0+Wb5nyZt2j2I+nbekXnYs6kBj3a3RqdxBfr dt86MkXYy/ttQfxX9y83Yi/vjsq/ztRjKqaVFp22lUX5+yybY+oXrPqnXhG+fOlshLfL1Wti Cetyp6+ycjYqfGXY+bdc7URmyo6315RYijMSDbWYi4oTAXBVMyZ6AgAA X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFlrPKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsUiON1OTbeC40qEQfM7M4tFuw+wWTyd+pPV Yv3pd4wWp4/tZXZg8ViwqdRjyZKfTB7Lu/U89j49xhbAEmVtk5ZfVJ5YlKJQlFxQYqtUnJGY kl8eb2lsZOqQWFCQk6qXnJ+rpG9nk5Kak1mWWoTMSrDO+DH/OEvBEoWKnveX2RsYv0t3MXJy SAiYSFyds5m1i5GLQ0hgBaPEkTXv2EASvAKCEj8m32MBsZkFwiSuzj7ODFHUyCQxvfEwM0hC WEBaouvCXaBuDg42AS2JA2uMIHptJDY3rGSEKPGU6Hm3gAnEZhFQlVjyewmYzSkQLDFpyztG iPlVEh/67oONFBHQkHiw7jgTxK6ZjBKzN95ihrhUVuLT85/sExj5ZyG5bxaS+2YBncEsoC4x ZUouRFhb4sm7C6wQtprEwt+LmJDFFzCyrWIUKErNSaw01oOH3yZGUAw1FAbvYPyzzOoQowAH oxIP74a6SxFCrIllxZW5hxglOJiVRHiL2K5ECPGmJFZWpRblxxeV5qQWH2Lczwj05URmKdHk fGCE55XEGxpbGFuaWBgYmFiamRAWNjExMDE2NjM2Njcxp6Wwkjhv1xeglwTSE0tSs1NTC1KL YF5g4uCUamBU3Vtuw3R8m4ipy5tSo7RbO45v+Wu6LsXYa/uan0YPtsm2/ItbYbhSc2aNsg3n pdcHPpTGFDTffXdfN+H+uf1P5VmSny092pL/IOeprC2neazM8VTlCI71615n3nMp+rXkmOQj Xz5ngcC3YVNTjOq+mq2yD94vyrTDYEO56E29a0laCiEr2D4qsQBTt6EWc1FxIgCTrkGzQgMA AA== Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] getaddrinfo glitch (Re: An Update to Happy Eyeballs) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 23 Mar 2017 17:40:18 -0000 --Boundary_(ID_3ZVOUS1jVnnV3661Ji9zEA) Content-type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Not much sympathy for the blog post for not reading the manual: << If the AI_NUMERICHOST bit is set, it indicates that hostname should = be treated as a numeric string defining an IPv4 or IPv6 address and no = name resolution should be attempted. >> Because of scope id, string to binary representation should always use getaddrinfo() with AI_NUMERICHOST. David > On Mar 22, 2017, at 19:54, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: >=20 > On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 11:50 AM, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 = > wrote: > At the very least the blog should point to a specific poor > implementation, and, say that even if it's not an inherent defect of > getaddrinfo() itself but due to one bad implementation they should > give up using it to be portable. >=20 > +1. A better approach for the blog post would have been to say "don't = use AI_ADDRCONFIG if all you want to do is convert IP addresses to = socket structures, because it doesn't work well on these platforms". > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --Boundary_(ID_3ZVOUS1jVnnV3661Ji9zEA) Content-type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Not much sympathy for the blog post for not = reading the manual:
<<
    If the AI_NUMERICHOST bit is set, it indicates = that hostname should be
    treated as a = numeric string defining an IPv4 or IPv6 address and no name
    resolution should be attempted.
>>

Because of scope id, string to binary representation should = always use
getaddrinfo() = with AI_NUMERICHOST.

David


On Mar 22, 2017, at 19:54, = Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:

On Thu, = Mar 23, 2017 at 11:50 AM, =E7=A5=9E=E6=98=8E=E9=81=94=E5=93=89 <jinmei@wide.ad.jp> wrote:
At the very least the = blog should point to a specific poor
implementation, and, say that even if it's not an inherent defect of
getaddrinfo() itself but due to one bad implementation they should
give up using it to be portable.

+1. A better approach = for the blog post would have been to say "don't use AI_ADDRCONFIG if all = you want to do is convert IP addresses to socket structures, because it = doesn't work well on these platforms".
_______________________________________________
v6ops = mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

= --Boundary_(ID_3ZVOUS1jVnnV3661Ji9zEA)-- From nobody Sun Mar 26 05:36:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0507412954A for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 05:36:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l0CNDbi1RuOU for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 05:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x22a.google.com (mail-it0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 27956129549 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 05:36:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id 190so28180942itm.0 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 05:36:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version:subject:message-id:date :to; bh=/cCDgcGKFEy09tbpEonAJrxltRKthjYX1EqYzzq0kR8=; b=s6M39sGxAFRu6lbTRzXZla71BU4FSkK8gpsXmpJ+Y7gbhpNhB9v+dbkImi2C5ez3kG fcVYfWCWCjrb4AjG/FoX/T2sFcum0864gHj6LnDH0z3bFOTk6dyEEpxMopK/XfWzSeDU fWdufkSJfFGvNavZWw/83NWmEMhvBzjx2cv38p5iam5rFjPawOXYUxJb/gMoVFhPE78y KWFhW8wtWjT2UDCFSlqbgiKClJxCRTlytb7NnSAF318TS1NFnoReeksTK8y1CLQbgW13 XbEBsi9usEwx+b4XJYNlpN8PUZ1OfiqueECyKNG7O1kvBmYtqVTbvn/QlzQ/HheD5Y6S Orqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version :subject:message-id:date:to; bh=/cCDgcGKFEy09tbpEonAJrxltRKthjYX1EqYzzq0kR8=; b=D03SLjWpBYzzpNGUfwcDgAyLBoVmFBWi+wR8Hkrfq+2TwTpFFXCWIYvEl+6TzWV2OI HEGDjdAl56mQmkj/2WSPNdT+CbMfeWhmV5WKOYawTb9GG3ZGK6odNXnTNA/kO4WBWFsp cKBiMBgmGOsgPx34y0PV4SGl5RrqodaGxEocFPjQFLXSqiCsIpUf0lMpJ3xMbPyTzQEu jBEChkwLCjtU1n8Ja4x1513jpfjgnvgmGnzQRK20e+iBixkwACUuxcqpdzvxmm6MGQdg 2ZMixpPYhHZw7D47hyus8jHkV/K716yuMvaCIievwbJ+oJTwvhTeoICNxPEGnSKYaW0m IvIA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0dzAEdwD/u/WytSrgwGTXt7PbKPq6t5F/SP7REJ7uLPOqAdQ1T0+GB10/lxcnVow== X-Received: by 10.36.115.147 with SMTP id y141mr5168489itb.76.1490531800255; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 05:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1233::b052:670d:e9f:4a06? ([2001:67c:1233:0:b052:670d:e9f:4a06]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g19sm4088375ioj.37.2017.03.26.05.36.39 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 26 Mar 2017 05:36:39 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 07:36:38 -0500 To: IPv6 Operations X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Meeting Materials for IETF 98 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2017 12:36:43 -0000 V6ops meeting materials (input to proceedings less the minutes) is now = available at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/98/session/v6ops= From nobody Sun Mar 26 23:09:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C31331293E4 for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 23:09:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cWm-IzeC1iCr for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 23:09:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B8591293DA for ; Sun, 26 Mar 2017 23:09:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.0.20/8.16.0.20) with SMTP id v2R66dHv023793 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 07:09:17 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : subject : date : message-id : content-type : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=EUuyFUfikpd6iC9pcvOzDrn5Es9+vsq9JVAPZkzzifY=; b=DxRTrhWTyuyR3i4CvsL6skSOYiwHguF1kU07EBDHCPnGmgzrERvU2S+Gbi2xTezJ0Lxv wRZGogjQwtWD7sD44ViYwPZm4VhIuBab5NzPvn3ss298ZsUTOIQas2NKMPJ+yio04bfE twoZPARCo2o6f7Cd9mQc+VYT5RxnXKTnpltWBFp5+wwX5AR6vOoqW/l0YVmMpn9bc2Tv bfWGRK+GMdqhpi4AAhbNRnqMoGVm88TSfhYpIYNf1GMeRptpW8n0CpgKyk46VA2nbac/ BpCz93CoosrE/DCTT2bvPDFBfkMWHgQYunANTDCri7uf3DigXUwEpoRsdOYXBUD33g7j zw== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint2 (a184-51-33-19.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [184.51.33.19] (may be forged)) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 29dmgbxkca-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 07:09:16 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v2R66ro3028988 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 02:09:16 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 29dkvu8nk2-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 02:09:16 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-EXJRNL1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.99) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 02:09:15 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by USMA1EX-EXJRNL1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.99) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 02:09:15 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 02:09:15 -0400 From: "Lubashev, Igor" To: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation Thread-Index: AdKmvKIOboO9ECIoS5CCtdTGzUhRdA== Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 06:09:14 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.33.106] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_d511dcb0cf5145e4a0d5bf3fa7053688usma1exdag1mb5msgcorpak_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-27_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703270054 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-27_05:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703270055 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 06:09:24 -0000 --_000_d511dcb0cf5145e4a0d5bf3fa7053688usma1exdag1mb5msgcorpak_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I've uploaded a draft, suggesting we've been too tame with IPv6 addresses, = treating them to be just like IPv4 addresses, only longer. I'd like to get some feedback from the WG as to the content as well as the = applicability of the subject in the WG. The link is here: https://datatrac= ker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask/. To save a click, I am including the abstract. Many thanks in advance for frank feedback, - Igor ------------------------------------ Abstract With significantly longer IPv6 address prefixes assigned to ISPs, operators= sometimes find opportunities to assign special meaning to lower-order bit = patterns. Often, these bit patterns cannot be expressed as an address prefi= x. This RFC introduces IPv6 Address/Mask notation that allows one to express a= ddress groupings beyond "all addresses that share a single prefix". The not= ation is similar to the IPv4 Address/Mask notation in its expressiveness, b= ut its syntax is derived from the traditional Address/Prefix-length notatio= n. The traditional Address/Prefix-length notation is a special case of the = Address/Mask notation. For example, using this notation, both 2001:db8::/32 and 2001:db8::/ffff:ff= ff:: have the same meaning. However, the following requires the new notatio= n: 2001:db8::1234/ffff:ffff::ffff or, equivalently, 2001:db8::1234/32+::fff= f. --_000_d511dcb0cf5145e4a0d5bf3fa7053688usma1exdag1mb5msgcorpak_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I’ve uploaded a draft, suggesting we’ve = been too tame with IPv6 addresses, treating them to be just like IPv4 addre= sses, only longer.

 

I’d like to get some feedback from the WG as t= o the content as well as the applicability of the subject in the WG.  = The link is here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask/.<= /o:p>

To save a click, I am including the abstract.

 

Many thanks in advance for frank feedback,

 

-     &= nbsp;    Igor

 

------------------------------------

Abstract

 

With significantly longer IPv6 address prefixes assi= gned to ISPs, operators sometimes find opportunities to assign special mean= ing to lower-order bit patterns. Often, these bit patterns cannot be expres= sed as an address prefix.

 

This RFC introduces IPv6 Address/Mask notation that = allows one to express address groupings beyond “all addresses that sh= are a single prefix”. The notation is similar to the IPv4 Address/Mas= k notation in its expressiveness, but its syntax is derived from the traditional Address/Prefix-length notation. The tradit= ional Address/Prefix-length notation is a special case of the Address/Mask = notation.

 

For example, using this notation, both 2001:db8::/32= and 2001:db8::/ffff:ffff:: have the same meaning. However, the following r= equires the new notation: 2001:db8::1234/ffff:ffff::ffff or, equivalently, = 2001:db8::1234/32+::ffff.

--_000_d511dcb0cf5145e4a0d5bf3fa7053688usma1exdag1mb5msgcorpak_-- From nobody Mon Mar 27 00:40:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 30DB012943E for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 00:40:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DWvwprx6J-3w for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 00:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ot0-x231.google.com (mail-ot0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c0f::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 48953126CD8 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 00:40:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-ot0-x231.google.com with SMTP id 102so14841873otv.0 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 00:40:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=MZ2xl4EbMX7a+SNijI3H5uFtL7X5eDvpCUrgzgjMP8o=; b=SnuvYZRax74p+x4aBwHWOke3fir6Ev68W2mcx/u6u09RvyovEeK/bI5kqcT9NTgCBJ ZVJxgQAWi7j6cMWNfRUT0J+O8DoHVnYuZ8cKY821afmhd2z4DPkXYFJf5gL2biVyY5tB bfnERXKxv1QCh+1YnUjEY2lteQkYRqG5lnRek59nGr9yoSgtG14FHPEwj1z2spgAM9sx Or4hLQSl5j/tUmoCrFaYjpuQDoMVZ5uMygBK57fgnewXcVXm+vR+vr4cNOCsfi3za/fu c1qecR8xqaomVfFJnpbFLfpedtfXzXINsw9FuA/7MWa2zsxsMpkpFSIFV0ZgB5Ll0gzW 5dVQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=MZ2xl4EbMX7a+SNijI3H5uFtL7X5eDvpCUrgzgjMP8o=; b=p8AiNWdXHHRcW0OLugGOKlTclpgYwvFJeXEpn4SqqY7A4Y3PccemV6IrWHMYfDXXuc n/A+xi9dBVfVbKR9k60wB2r6bdGGJrdW4YYrjx1MVibDuLmRiUSs80cZ7vFpvH1MCYWk 1e/5Eae4dpwiZyRyvrnIsOeqfGRod6Kmfpy7ragNz+ePcVzSV+vcj79URts6k5dCc6a4 01AWkNtewpiP0QbnpCKC5Oo/C+XwXG6CcAzO32TTv6S/SMLbfDHXIKspCfHnLdTh9lUx abQXR2g6nw7txalskKq2yeBC+BMr/scD4OyzpI+54ZY4pVUqXH+UqZq/jmNtNRn7LlWA wVww== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1DkwOLOR5j/yM6bPsBuQD6VDZrrAAblV2pI+/Jy5BA0GnnehB0KKlIINdexYcDoMBji4mGtd2mpBLQeg== X-Received: by 10.157.61.202 with SMTP id l68mr11672261otc.242.1490600411747; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 00:40:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.182.88.226 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 00:40:11 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Wendwosen Abebe Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 10:40:11 +0300 Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Cc: IPv6 Operations Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11492f9a0b5bc9054bb17480 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Meeting Materials for IETF 98 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 07:40:14 -0000 --001a11492f9a0b5bc9054bb17480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Thanks Fred On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > V6ops meeting materials (input to proceedings less the minutes) is now > available at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/98/session/v6ops > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > -- Yes We Can --001a11492f9a0b5bc9054bb17480 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks Fred

On Sun, Mar 26, 2017 at 3:36 PM, Fred Baker <fredb= aker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
V6ops meeting materials (input to proceedings less the minutes) is now ava= ilable at https://datatracker.ietf.org/mee= ting/98/session/v6ops
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--
Yes We Can
--001a11492f9a0b5bc9054bb17480-- From nobody Mon Mar 27 08:45:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98F5F126B71 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:45:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5qOyzR8VXDFt for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22a.google.com (mail-oi0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3B546129781 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:45:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id g83so17984364oia.0 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:45:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=vbxCTab1k5C75Ro5MxnP5dUIi8Nz1T9k7LGR37nGOhU=; b=lKjDQObgEeqdIk4A8RpI8erWJiZUpUz1XnVdiXQi16U/Tl/oMUG6pMZg7qjKcuQp0k diBBtG/TnNhDpm+8BYCr5atJJ0OP5NP2at65NKRy+GOGhhS2ihobSHJoUbh2OzL1184h y93q1rs4zBPOboTqtHCDMPgPC32w+HWz+oDcF8y5eEsmdeBbDAoI3q4NuuaCAodfB7tA IQ3xTiTxvKetPXDSDgAjmVw8Eh8nRYYP9Q1QMjSdkLpz3MbMr0SdlxE+I14vIM4UEzFN yQlCc2eA4H2IOBAtMwzxdYa5FrXsxdIS7sj5lZcZyiyPZ3T3qpvVDBQqW+qyrnWjAvSl kddQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=vbxCTab1k5C75Ro5MxnP5dUIi8Nz1T9k7LGR37nGOhU=; b=PtfPHmh6zRhai7nk5+FMlX7VMj8JhlWufpJPfiN/A39K7kLmbKISR775uEfgwPb2iF eSv1DS4eBt0gh9Gdirxto5JVXl2WH9ocQc829lM27s4+2iwBQNT2WZmpQvA2VnH4sGga LTMTfiF2R6z3cq8ZhS6wxdsAjW+lj22JqjnzE2iSpUzXzrLgOC7iwtE/+EWzGTS37zJV prHiDJSs/0jxzfqwn3RDQw1z/kLOBivHBMwUeUQl/0wCDDyvuf+9Vce8ZNkE+yaQc390 wCWNRqeJCzCZjL23heCAkxHrLEkUSWIydJxkU9gxbfAn6UZsdQFFpiA2gYUxVQ8RLOFk gsWw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H28MpnN4QU+dgzwhpRQAnkHJvTJoEVO+6tHmEb2jISqqe/Rsmbp9Sx/W3t8BFicZg== X-Received: by 10.107.174.220 with SMTP id n89mr23650174ioo.166.1490629536572; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:45:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from t2001067c0370012870aceef450378ecd.v6.meeting.ietf.org (t2001067c0370012870aceef450378ecd.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:70ac:eef4:5037:8ecd]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s97sm396567ioi.50.2017.03.27.08.45.35 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:45:35 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 10:45:34 -0500 Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> References: To: "Lubashev, Igor" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 15:45:39 -0000 We will be discussing a potential charter update on Wednesday. That = said, the charter today is = https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/charter/. IMHO, if the topic is = addressing architecture, that would belong in 6man, but operational use = of IPv6 addressing falls squarely into the remit of v6ops.=20 The subject of discontiguous prefix use was a hot topic in the 1980's = and early 1990's, hot enough that you will find references to it in RFCs = 1716, 1812, and 2072. 1716 was the predecessor to 1812; the big = difference (says the guy who edited one into the other) is the = introduction of CIDR addressing, the deprecation of RIP v1, some = additional commentary on routing, and a whole lot of copy editing. 2072 = is an early document on network renumbering. You will find that, in = general, a number of people wanted the capability, but didn't have use = cases that made sense.=20 If I were you, the first thing I would focus on is operational use = cases. Who wants it, what is their problem, and why is this a good = solution to it? > On Mar 27, 2017, at 1:09 AM, Lubashev, Igor = wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99ve uploaded a draft, suggesting we=E2=80=99ve been too tame = with IPv6 addresses, treating them to be just like IPv4 addresses, only = longer. > =20 > I=E2=80=99d like to get some feedback from the WG as to the content as = well as the applicability of the subject in the WG. The link is here: = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask/. > To save a click, I am including the abstract. > =20 > Many thanks in advance for frank feedback, > =20 > - Igor > =20 > ------------------------------------ > Abstract > =20 > With significantly longer IPv6 address prefixes assigned to ISPs, = operators sometimes find opportunities to assign special meaning to = lower-order bit patterns. Often, these bit patterns cannot be expressed = as an address prefix. > =20 > This RFC introduces IPv6 Address/Mask notation that allows one to = express address groupings beyond =E2=80=9Call addresses that share a = single prefix=E2=80=9D. The notation is similar to the IPv4 Address/Mask = notation in its expressiveness, but its syntax is derived from the = traditional Address/Prefix-length notation. The traditional = Address/Prefix-length notation is a special case of the Address/Mask = notation. > =20 > For example, using this notation, both 2001:db8::/32 and = 2001:db8::/ffff:ffff:: have the same meaning. However, the following = requires the new notation: 2001:db8::1234/ffff:ffff::ffff or, = equivalently, 2001:db8::1234/32+::ffff. > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Mon Mar 27 08:58:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1888C1297CC for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:58:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9l6bLt8aqpyY for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22d.google.com (mail-vk0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1C23A1297CE for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:58:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id d188so56786510vka.0 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:58:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=algebras-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+0LMvGUGxBk30mB5+HEiAclMXY4eq5ohyZpgx+P+S2Y=; b=1e++97gfQ7mA9ROUDG2OXF042xAer0flphCm5TiDlFToRM2dxEGzdLslnhauhUv1F5 +SW686jdqwRzdqeZEHX8jjMb0MQHYPAIJf499hNkfvv+7qgW7cC7zG7TV21dxVjjvTro m0ITLIpaU1qlDAR+3aiUSay0RLR8YE53A5tPNRStvpfWW/kGbyJBNBkvQZ121eXLtmqJ fHcS+JvZHeb4NarN6qSxx7PiWe160jHgs/gEJNbbq8/LyaYyRp5G9V9H/ceSLslMfEGg 30L3ICNGgBeZzjSbnK32XbznCCtpcZVbkqUOuWe4x4KVPY8XVhb/X5XuD3V7SDigAm6J oJjA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+0LMvGUGxBk30mB5+HEiAclMXY4eq5ohyZpgx+P+S2Y=; b=CClTjO2LFrgg6QxtiYGSKhLn1VAQmpRLIN8o4b/w6waPY8NLfgaPbOjYv+Dk5p6raw 5h95jtdfnv39ZuMFrtFME1+obiuCGJ472Lg6/L5ecfShvk+5ncUrdKGRuz2tmsMq9dTY naZtmV7ACrEdriumAuZhrNGhjowysVK1b35Cj5RLPT2ERQi5joh2ZVrEFcYEylwl+KWA RuYc0QQ7rvYvgQDOuEdr0EG1ZrTjQDLO8rsj/ATPJbTXLYqMR4ihRYRLsSMbCZYNRxGf RkGXrlJ78q0w+UHQcgUBGoZpE317IUhxOuZ4hp7I39ZnI/bm3mbpn77242SXajb6d0AE sGLg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3y/Fg/aVMa18G11ldetdC8v94u8/jRfmngjBNa8RHE4AyLMWgoEVZIhPQSTRHgLjLTnymP6GNP1Vgctg== X-Received: by 10.176.75.145 with SMTP id v17mr4767004uaf.128.1490630306901; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:58:26 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.84.20 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 08:58:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [31.133.147.62] In-Reply-To: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> From: George Michaelson Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 10:58:26 -0500 Message-ID: To: "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 15:58:40 -0000 How different is this, to the bitmask stuff D-T discussed recently (like, within 5 years) which I think also some big CN nets wanted to explore? That model, was "prefix to the public route, but bitmap for the internal route" in some ways. And, I think the CDN guys have models which use the bitmaps to do smart content routing, but the overall address reachability is under anycast. So the local-presence is dealt with by normal BGP path, and nobody outside the AS cares about that bitmap. What I said at the time, and would repeat, is that it blows a giant hole through the H/D ratio model of what is the 'right' size of prefix, because the bitmap consumes *all* the bits under the allocation prefix size. Thats not neccessarily wrong, and we are hardly running out of IPs, but process says if you want to vary the allocation unit models, you need to come into RIR process to discuss that. Ultimately. Getting document in IETF is probably a good starting point: its a tough barrier. -G On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 10:45 AM, Fred Baker wro= te: > We will be discussing a potential charter update on Wednesday. That said,= the charter today is https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/charter/. IMHO,= if the topic is addressing architecture, that would belong in 6man, but op= erational use of IPv6 addressing falls squarely into the remit of v6ops. > > The subject of discontiguous prefix use was a hot topic in the 1980's and= early 1990's, hot enough that you will find references to it in RFCs 1716,= 1812, and 2072. 1716 was the predecessor to 1812; the big difference (says= the guy who edited one into the other) is the introduction of CIDR address= ing, the deprecation of RIP v1, some additional commentary on routing, and = a whole lot of copy editing. 2072 is an early document on network renumberi= ng. You will find that, in general, a number of people wanted the capabilit= y, but didn't have use cases that made sense. > > If I were you, the first thing I would focus on is operational use cases.= Who wants it, what is their problem, and why is this a good solution to it= ? > >> On Mar 27, 2017, at 1:09 AM, Lubashev, Igor wrote: >> >> I=E2=80=99ve uploaded a draft, suggesting we=E2=80=99ve been too tame wi= th IPv6 addresses, treating them to be just like IPv4 addresses, only longe= r. >> >> I=E2=80=99d like to get some feedback from the WG as to the content as w= ell as the applicability of the subject in the WG. The link is here: https= ://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask/. >> To save a click, I am including the abstract. >> >> Many thanks in advance for frank feedback, >> >> - Igor >> >> ------------------------------------ >> Abstract >> >> With significantly longer IPv6 address prefixes assigned to ISPs, operat= ors sometimes find opportunities to assign special meaning to lower-order b= it patterns. Often, these bit patterns cannot be expressed as an address pr= efix. >> >> This RFC introduces IPv6 Address/Mask notation that allows one to expres= s address groupings beyond =E2=80=9Call addresses that share a single prefi= x=E2=80=9D. The notation is similar to the IPv4 Address/Mask notation in it= s expressiveness, but its syntax is derived from the traditional Address/Pr= efix-length notation. The traditional Address/Prefix-length notation is a s= pecial case of the Address/Mask notation. >> >> For example, using this notation, both 2001:db8::/32 and 2001:db8::/ffff= :ffff:: have the same meaning. However, the following requires the new nota= tion: 2001:db8::1234/ffff:ffff::ffff or, equivalently, 2001:db8::1234/32+::= ffff. >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Mon Mar 27 09:40:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EECB5127201 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 09:40:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DXwXDJ15TNAJ for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 09:40:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9324D129441 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 09:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2RGeUHr047101 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 18:40:30 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 7664220B20D for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 18:40:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C679207833 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 18:40:30 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.84.4] ([132.166.84.4]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2RGeTJi016251 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 18:40:30 +0200 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <5265b781-ab49-18ff-55fc-1647b6192a1c@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 11:40:11 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 16:40:36 -0000 Hi, I support new notation that expresses a mask, different than a notation that expresses a prefix. I have a simpler proposal for the notation of a mask. The notation fe80:://10 expresses a mask that is different than the prefix fe80::/64. Remark the mask fe80:://10 could mean prefix fe81::/10. Also new fg00:://7 that can mean fc00::/7 and fd00::/7 (these are ULA addresses, and 'g' is a new character non-hex). The need of mask notation different than prefix notation stems from difficulty of distinguishing the fe80::/10 from the fe80::/64 notation of link-local addresses, and of fd00::/7 and fc00::/7 of ULA addresses. This need is documented more in document DOI 10.13140/RG.2.2.30828.36484. Alex Le 27/03/2017 01:09, Lubashev, Igor a crit : > Ive uploaded a draft, suggesting weve been too tame with IPv6 > addresses, treating them to be just like IPv4 addresses, only longer. > > > > Id like to get some feedback from the WG as to the content as well as > the applicability of the subject in the WG. The link is here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask/. > > To save a click, I am including the abstract. > > > > Many thanks in advance for frank feedback, > > > > - Igor > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Abstract > > > > With significantly longer IPv6 address prefixes assigned to ISPs, > operators sometimes find opportunities to assign special meaning to > lower-order bit patterns. Often, these bit patterns cannot be expressed > as an address prefix. > > > > This RFC introduces IPv6 Address/Mask notation that allows one to > express address groupings beyond all addresses that share a single > prefix. The notation is similar to the IPv4 Address/Mask notation in > its expressiveness, but its syntax is derived from the traditional > Address/Prefix-length notation. The traditional Address/Prefix-length > notation is a special case of the Address/Mask notation. > > > > For example, using this notation, both 2001:db8::/32 and > 2001:db8::/ffff:ffff:: have the same meaning. However, the following > requires the new notation: 2001:db8::1234/ffff:ffff::ffff or, > equivalently, 2001:db8::1234/32+::ffff. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Mon Mar 27 11:20:45 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 623D81293E3 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 11:20:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.198 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.198 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FROM_LOCAL_NOVOWEL=0.5, HK_RANDOM_ENVFROM=0.001, HK_RANDOM_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lwNcGa090vvy for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 11:20:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x229.google.com (mail-vk0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82CBE129490 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 11:20:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x229.google.com with SMTP id z204so62035259vkd.1 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 11:20:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=pN0ZQoDAz6NdJoVYP3vPKczWbGipkgw9dV7pzZFMY7k=; b=OU2PiryQXLD2CqkPUnXG9hFdBs7Q0+iWApusP6rRU6qWcTOZX3Nq2R2xosP2O3ITVE qm5axarJLDLY63Ye5JXiy2p0Zx7pVCWosK3Tm7kM7RSmBz0JM7y8qh3dwhWTaSjnBm1t SwJXfnjQ+viBVp3ZO4r/lePJbaAxZu1jpNvuPqLmJX3PDmXm4uOkpWH/H1yDUc09wkcj 26UEMcsoFO9HmRuF4hY8iFSvh2MFvLWbJuWwwtCD3gcdvQUkNsZrACpnbuWomJLwEv/1 J2Rv3X6fzJxF6ua8OcrZYC5KVl+d1C+XK+PVhvoDx2BidciUaDupETjghgsyVc/MU7cT CRMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=pN0ZQoDAz6NdJoVYP3vPKczWbGipkgw9dV7pzZFMY7k=; b=sOpJV1tVQmCPDViQv9YSJXyy5cpbEPkT26RKW2iX6MhLTIBPXhg4EMUAQ3oyhPYBmB 07fvm2HMMJRI7m0DukvIo0MBQDzj2sK87SraNlUpuF2dgAT6eRFOfE8N3YO02wd12PlJ nFm6Zv9kwsIohJwep1KOhxW/Wdp7qgF8sTdnu233muUVWjfx8CxR00IhN4xefASA5GD+ xIOUcy43FoafzBQWNlsC0VNoEkB7OXnJBxjn4x37E5ix5PcF7jx6Gy0eUljxAGMDW/Lx ZSaxjxa7bLevXXW7SmVPV80n/p25y8nYlgn9M3JBIe+VE/MrFhTqdoAGZCrLo/qBi6As 8p9g== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3RhD8ZLzBDp3RVziDJU70dAtRaI012HNjnWqXQKk3jqO2pDSg+0BkMTP2R61mt+VM8VTrimNuuYnJvxQ== X-Received: by 10.176.83.79 with SMTP id y15mr9759465uay.141.1490638840457; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 11:20:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.159.36.181 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 11:20:10 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5265b781-ab49-18ff-55fc-1647b6192a1c@gmail.com> References: <5265b781-ab49-18ff-55fc-1647b6192a1c@gmail.com> From: Mark Smith Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:20:10 +1100 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: v6ops list Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 18:20:44 -0000 On 28 March 2017 at 03:40, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > Hi, > > I support new notation that expresses a mask, different than a notation that > expresses a prefix. > > I have a simpler proposal for the notation of a mask. > > The notation fe80:://10 expresses a mask that is different than the prefix > fe80::/64. Remark the mask fe80:://10 could mean prefix fe81::/10. > > Also new fg00:://7 that can mean fc00::/7 and fd00::/7 (these are ULA > addresses, and 'g' is a new character non-hex). > > The need of mask notation different than prefix notation stems from > difficulty of distinguishing the fe80::/10 from the fe80::/64 notation of > link-local addresses, and of fd00::/7 and fc00::/7 of ULA addresses. This > need is documented more in document DOI 10.13140/RG.2.2.30828.36484. I don't understand what the problem is. fe80::/64 describes a range of 2^64 addresses. fe80::/10 describes a range of 2^118 addresses. The range of addresses in fe80::/64 is a subset of the range of addresses in fe80::/10, because a /64 specifies a smaller range of addresses than the /10 does. There is no difference between fe80::/64 and fe80::/10, other than the number of addresses they describe. How is fe80::/10 a "mask" but not a prefix (technically an "address prefix" using RFC4291 terminology)? If your examples were fe80::/64 and fe80::/80, is fe80::/64 now not a prefix, but a "mask"? A prefix by itself describes a range of addresses, but not how they're being used. That use, if there is one, has to be provided separately e.g., "fe80::/64, when in a route table, is a link-local route" IPv4 is the same, "172.31.0.0/24" is making no statement of if or how that range of IPv4 addresses are used. Regards, Mark. From nobody Mon Mar 27 13:05:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D0E551293D6 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:05:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qPkBmuT8To6m for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 75D35129609 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:05:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. 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prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v2RK1d9l017537; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 16:05:46 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com with ESMTP id 29dkvukbn8-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 Mar 2017 16:05:46 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 16:05:44 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 16:05:44 -0400 From: "Lubashev, Igor" To: Fred Baker CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation Thread-Index: AdKmvKIOboO9ECIoS5CCtdTGzUhRdAAdhDoAAACNQuA= Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 20:05:44 +0000 Message-ID: <09c954d3805348c7bad79bd6866f0396@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.43.37] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-27_17:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703270165 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-27_17:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 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[2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k63sm765057ioi.19.2017.03.27.13.27.31 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:27:32 -0700 (PDT) To: "Lubashev, Igor" , Fred Baker References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> <09c954d3805348c7bad79bd6866f0396@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:27:33 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <09c954d3805348c7bad79bd6866f0396@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 20:27:37 -0000 Somehow I feel this is going to be a noisy discussion, since you summaris= e use cases by saying "there are use-cases where semantics are assigned to individual bits or series of bits." This is a very good way to waste address space even in IPv6. We shouldn't make it too easy. I'm afraid that by defining such a notation, we will encourage people to do the wrong thing. Regards Brian On 28/03/2017 09:05, Lubashev, Igor wrote: > Thanks Fred. There is a lot more one can do with the bits available in= IPv6 address allocations, so there will be more people with specific use= cases this time around. We have our use cases, and by starting this dis= cussion, I am hoping that others will come forward as well. >=20 > - Igor >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com]=20 > Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 10:46 AM > To: Lubashev, Igor > Cc: v6ops@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask N= otation >=20 > We will be discussing a potential charter update on Wednesday. That sai= d, the charter today is https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/charter/. I= MHO, if the topic is addressing architecture, that would belong in 6man, = but operational use of IPv6 addressing falls squarely into the remit of v= 6ops.=20 >=20 > The subject of discontiguous prefix use was a hot topic in the 1980's a= nd early 1990's, hot enough that you will find references to it in RFCs 1= 716, 1812, and 2072. 1716 was the predecessor to 1812; the big difference= (says the guy who edited one into the other) is the introduction of CIDR= addressing, the deprecation of RIP v1, some additional commentary on rou= ting, and a whole lot of copy editing. 2072 is an early document on netwo= rk renumbering. You will find that, in general, a number of people wanted= the capability, but didn't have use cases that made sense.=20 >=20 > If I were you, the first thing I would focus on is operational use case= s. Who wants it, what is their problem, and why is this a good solution t= o it? >=20 >> On Mar 27, 2017, at 1:09 AM, Lubashev, Igor wrot= e: >> >> I=E2=80=99ve uploaded a draft, suggesting we=E2=80=99ve been too tame = with IPv6 addresses, treating them to be just like IPv4 addresses, only l= onger. >> =20 >> I=E2=80=99d like to get some feedback from the WG as to the content as= well as the applicability of the subject in the WG. The link is here: h= ttps://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask/. >> To save a click, I am including the abstract. >> =20 >> Many thanks in advance for frank feedback, >> =20 >> - Igor >> =20 >> ------------------------------------ >> Abstract >> =20 >> With significantly longer IPv6 address prefixes assigned to ISPs, oper= ators sometimes find opportunities to assign special meaning to lower-ord= er bit patterns. Often, these bit patterns cannot be expressed as an addr= ess prefix. >> =20 >> This RFC introduces IPv6 Address/Mask notation that allows one to expr= ess address groupings beyond =E2=80=9Call addresses that share a single p= refix=E2=80=9D. The notation is similar to the IPv4 Address/Mask notation= in its expressiveness, but its syntax is derived from the traditional Ad= dress/Prefix-length notation. The traditional Address/Prefix-length notat= ion is a special case of the Address/Mask notation. >> =20 >> For example, using this notation, both 2001:db8::/32 and 2001:db8::/ff= ff:ffff:: have the same meaning. However, the following requires the new = notation: 2001:db8::1234/ffff:ffff::ffff or, equivalently, 2001:db8::1234= /32+::ffff. >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 From nobody Mon Mar 27 13:38:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5A4B0129659 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:38:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kmq4iVYaK9kv for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob21.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob21.registeredsite.com [209.17.115.115]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F21C1129649 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:37:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com ([10.30.71.205]) by atl4mhob21.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2RKbuUg078801 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 16:37:56 -0400 Received: (qmail 15392 invoked by uid 0); 27 Mar 2017 20:37:56 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 31.133.133.33 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?31.133.133.33?) (lee@asgard.org@31.133.133.33) by 0 with ESMTPA; 27 Mar 2017 20:37:56 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.7.2.170228 Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 15:37:52 -0500 From: Lee Howard To: Brian E Carpenter , "Lubashev, Igor" , Fred Baker CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> <09c954d3805348c7bad79bd6866f0396@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 20:38:00 -0000 The first thing I thought of was TeraStream (DT=B9s forward thinking). This also might support use cases Victor Kuarsingh had in mind when he suggested v6ops consider things you can do in IPv6 that you can=B9t do in IPv6. I also worry about giving away bits, but as we define use cases, I expect they=B9ll be to the right of the /48th bit, and often in the last 64 bits. I=B9m lesson concerned there. Lee On 3/27/17, 3:27 PM, "v6ops on behalf of Brian E Carpenter" wrote: >Somehow I feel this is going to be a noisy discussion, since you summarise >use cases by saying "there are use-cases where semantics are assigned to >individual bits or series of bits." This is a very good way to waste >address space even in IPv6. We shouldn't make it too easy. I'm afraid >that by defining such a notation, we will encourage people to do the >wrong thing. > >Regards > Brian > >On 28/03/2017 09:05, Lubashev, Igor wrote: >> Thanks Fred. There is a lot more one can do with the bits available in >>IPv6 address allocations, so there will be more people with specific use >>cases this time around. We have our use cases, and by starting this >>discussion, I am hoping that others will come forward as well. >>=20 >> - Igor >>=20 >>=20 >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com] >> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 10:46 AM >> To: Lubashev, Igor >> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask >>Notation >>=20 >> We will be discussing a potential charter update on Wednesday. That >>said, the charter today is >>https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/charter/. IMHO, if the topic is >>addressing architecture, that would belong in 6man, but operational use >>of IPv6 addressing falls squarely into the remit of v6ops. >>=20 >> The subject of discontiguous prefix use was a hot topic in the 1980's >>and early 1990's, hot enough that you will find references to it in RFCs >>1716, 1812, and 2072. 1716 was the predecessor to 1812; the big >>difference (says the guy who edited one into the other) is the >>introduction of CIDR addressing, the deprecation of RIP v1, some >>additional commentary on routing, and a whole lot of copy editing. 2072 >>is an early document on network renumbering. You will find that, in >>general, a number of people wanted the capability, but didn't have use >>cases that made sense. >>=20 >> If I were you, the first thing I would focus on is operational use >>cases. Who wants it, what is their problem, and why is this a good >>solution to it? >>=20 >>> On Mar 27, 2017, at 1:09 AM, Lubashev, Igor >>>wrote: >>> >>> I=B9ve uploaded a draft, suggesting we=B9ve been too tame with IPv6 >>>addresses, treating them to be just like IPv4 addresses, only longer. >>> =20 >>> I=B9d like to get some feedback from the WG as to the content as well as >>>the applicability of the subject in the WG. The link is here: >>>https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask/. >>> To save a click, I am including the abstract. >>> =20 >>> Many thanks in advance for frank feedback, >>> =20 >>> - Igor >>> =20 >>> ------------------------------------ >>> Abstract >>> =20 >>> With significantly longer IPv6 address prefixes assigned to ISPs, >>>operators sometimes find opportunities to assign special meaning to >>>lower-order bit patterns. Often, these bit patterns cannot be expressed >>>as an address prefix. >>> =20 >>> This RFC introduces IPv6 Address/Mask notation that allows one to >>>express address groupings beyond =B3all addresses that share a single >>>prefix=B2. The notation is similar to the IPv4 Address/Mask notation in >>>its expressiveness, but its syntax is derived from the traditional >>>Address/Prefix-length notation. The traditional Address/Prefix-length >>>notation is a special case of the Address/Mask notation. >>> =20 >>> For example, using this notation, both 2001:db8::/32 and >>>2001:db8::/ffff:ffff:: have the same meaning. However, the following >>>requires the new notation: 2001:db8::1234/ffff:ffff::ffff or, >>>equivalently, 2001:db8::1234/32+::ffff. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>=20 > >_______________________________________________ >v6ops mailing list >v6ops@ietf.org >https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Mon Mar 27 13:42:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B295C129671 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:42:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id J_F0BE6wRGK8 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 12957129669 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 27 Mar 2017 20:42:14 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 349BAD788A; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:42:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=rcBO/t6sqO3fEX3+s7xCiV8WEIU=; b= gawa7WEMitxkaU4EY3becCs9hkpQk1ya6FPXa7ABaoklLiBc1swUBJiaM2hmcjMu Ucz1thLjOyhzKmBL5Cel0gk8rgor3INwPikvXExhEaO6wTil1m+7AnT0lddDqdC8 Mb8dGY47M3/stEDZDjmOUeHevRHmW/9kpgoGUYrTbbM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=s+NsKuGli7xKWh2eWoAckqM ieFizuCssUUD7ZAJStP+dAf77wh4GVCHzjwCJgpS/g2H41iinO++eu5akbe9A/8I wBe8wwySmFTCdbAMJzO6hGXDN9ibHcLhZAaPEbSLMxGiCvvx8pCKjw7kD/mywUcA bUCZ1OueyXca6T0comu0= Received: from h.hanazo.no (unknown [208.59.64.26]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E826ED788D; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:42:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97CBBA537F65; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 15:42:12 -0500 (CDT) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: <9FE21644-0097-4648-A2F1-19E72C2538A3@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_1499D3AC-0CEC-446D-93A5-5484A20A57CC"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 15:42:10 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Brian E Carpenter , "Lubashev, Igor" , Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org" To: Lee Howard References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> <09c954d3805348c7bad79bd6866f0396@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 20:42:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_1499D3AC-0CEC-446D-93A5-5484A20A57CC Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > The first thing I thought of was TeraStream (DT=C2=B9s forward = thinking). > This also might support use cases Victor Kuarsingh had in mind when he > suggested v6ops consider things you can do in IPv6 that you can=C2=B9t = do in > IPv6. >=20 > I also worry about giving away bits, but as we define use cases, I = expect > they=C2=B9ll be to the right of the /48th bit, and often in the last = 64 bits. > I=C2=B9m lesson concerned there. if we had variable length addresses we didn't need payload... using addresses as protocol fields are going to be problematic no matter = where you put them. Ole > On 3/27/17, 3:27 PM, "v6ops on behalf of Brian E Carpenter" > = wrote: >=20 >> Somehow I feel this is going to be a noisy discussion, since you = summarise >> use cases by saying "there are use-cases where semantics are assigned = to >> individual bits or series of bits." This is a very good way to waste >> address space even in IPv6. We shouldn't make it too easy. I'm afraid >> that by defining such a notation, we will encourage people to do the >> wrong thing. >>=20 >> Regards >> Brian >>=20 >> On 28/03/2017 09:05, Lubashev, Igor wrote: >>> Thanks Fred. There is a lot more one can do with the bits available = in >>> IPv6 address allocations, so there will be more people with specific = use >>> cases this time around. We have our use cases, and by starting this >>> discussion, I am hoping that others will come forward as well. >>>=20 >>> - Igor >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 10:46 AM >>> To: Lubashev, Igor >>> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 = Address/Mask >>> Notation >>>=20 >>> We will be discussing a potential charter update on Wednesday. That >>> said, the charter today is >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/charter/. IMHO, if the topic = is >>> addressing architecture, that would belong in 6man, but operational = use >>> of IPv6 addressing falls squarely into the remit of v6ops. >>>=20 >>> The subject of discontiguous prefix use was a hot topic in the = 1980's >>> and early 1990's, hot enough that you will find references to it in = RFCs >>> 1716, 1812, and 2072. 1716 was the predecessor to 1812; the big >>> difference (says the guy who edited one into the other) is the >>> introduction of CIDR addressing, the deprecation of RIP v1, some >>> additional commentary on routing, and a whole lot of copy editing. = 2072 >>> is an early document on network renumbering. You will find that, in >>> general, a number of people wanted the capability, but didn't have = use >>> cases that made sense. >>>=20 >>> If I were you, the first thing I would focus on is operational use >>> cases. Who wants it, what is their problem, and why is this a good >>> solution to it? >>>=20 >>>> On Mar 27, 2017, at 1:09 AM, Lubashev, Igor >>>> wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> I=C2=B9ve uploaded a draft, suggesting we=C2=B9ve been too tame = with IPv6 >>>> addresses, treating them to be just like IPv4 addresses, only = longer. >>>>=20 >>>> I=C2=B9d like to get some feedback from the WG as to the content as = well as >>>> the applicability of the subject in the WG. The link is here: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask/. >>>> To save a click, I am including the abstract. >>>>=20 >>>> Many thanks in advance for frank feedback, >>>>=20 >>>> - Igor >>>>=20 >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> Abstract >>>>=20 >>>> With significantly longer IPv6 address prefixes assigned to ISPs, >>>> operators sometimes find opportunities to assign special meaning to >>>> lower-order bit patterns. Often, these bit patterns cannot be = expressed >>>> as an address prefix. >>>>=20 >>>> This RFC introduces IPv6 Address/Mask notation that allows one to >>>> express address groupings beyond =C2=B3all addresses that share a = single >>>> prefix=C2=B2. The notation is similar to the IPv4 Address/Mask = notation in >>>> its expressiveness, but its syntax is derived from the traditional >>>> Address/Prefix-length notation. The traditional = Address/Prefix-length >>>> notation is a special case of the Address/Mask notation. >>>>=20 >>>> For example, using this notation, both 2001:db8::/32 and >>>> 2001:db8::/ffff:ffff:: have the same meaning. However, the = following >>>> requires the new notation: 2001:db8::1234/ffff:ffff::ffff or, >>>> equivalently, 2001:db8::1234/32+::ffff. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> v6ops mailing list >>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --Apple-Mail=_1499D3AC-0CEC-446D-93A5-5484A20A57CC Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJY2XkjAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92ylAQAJ9T86OHpE4GKctTjdiOh4XH AVB291uoIZaenwrhOIalgRQL0rZpprpp0aBnT1ych252ebvUkhSaktD2FqfzOjvQ mv5Y4dHLYgdyvU8+W/fsaA0Br3PpF28lJjGMTNr1HObCd7wHpObxizv2u19nwTG7 9sKNHJlr7jPvdXpF1INO7FZ0jJy1fcKOZl18GkjrYMt/Sv+K572SFjgYxOSp3ESv mAu3b0obT/+tSDtXWmLB+huM0ajdouq8+ndCsmXbm0kQOKiNbsVITq4KrsUZH4PC E33/UsNudEpqYhgL2mVf9lGn80C0zqDXIXfjaYifzCwWQJDcsPtqxNFinYWEImcg Wovplz4sKoMtO4+MWBnRNC/gSizjN1kD8ecY+v3liFmyeA7A6euwKkzafqhWjVYF ey6XUV1pLQTQBnPLcHx35DJGW0sh74ZdL/kYodwwoUqJcuJLyi5QmOdWx0CVjqjc aAVZvdvXKYqqkiD6EqWieGBMlGnUed7C9iWyjOZv8cHHSm+3eocbL6i6GuT0yQRO qalUrSpnDXwDJ9wuYWgQCelgWHHUSfyw3HxyKiQZLo3DNvb+CdrENE6YBVLzNCrR gHHsibb00seiP3OUn/A0a/I9JZkl9xNNUMJM3FbrjOt7V8Uq7Xnd+grj+dfXufQV XIFgf6jsdrdREtVSwCjw =je1u -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_1499D3AC-0CEC-446D-93A5-5484A20A57CC-- From nobody Mon Mar 27 13:52:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C97F3120727 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:52:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id byn0Sza_qz1g for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x243.google.com (mail-it0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 658C41294A8 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:52:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x243.google.com with SMTP id y18so14121881itc.2 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:52:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=aWlEVDTLgX2Q0wYzUhaXG1FXv4oC/RmoXj130tIPcz8=; b=RFLGixXzegyzuwttW8nPOFxy3fpwlvS8qhhZXYjrCmzfJgDNqQYrMlazG/tHJ4j3Ii f+trjFc10f6iTXTHGk2cOeVy7UvN3GObw8I6Y/hVT98lf+9DplmpE4xxI0sqgC9kut0d CNQysorUisjnilRGHputrE7oe4thwWBT92n6ui4j39ZIw5p2mXc51kzuY+YIJDm1hnHX Y/H5Kwfj/153NqbBk3S1X7283wvK70JfSvMm9ffEXZCMCiB1/JnjisSLXe00DOQVN4a4 8KmvTnd2xUvwSBu1uBM8xzs7jTdkOY5X/cTq1sBE80UWTbDf8Vr3LxeQNXGvfZG+brbP KjBA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=aWlEVDTLgX2Q0wYzUhaXG1FXv4oC/RmoXj130tIPcz8=; b=e2cSrLG2uAOoQXEbpAdtWNhDNf77Y7f4Vu+oeZUxF3zFdDqxWcH5dJRoIiFLlJq/IQ J36Zk0dfZBtuR6HJFv74hyPVCbr8sRWvcM0aQuwPgb5CMB6U+s+McdgM3yyiUkjnMXQE 4Xkn2OL+bJrnhKOXkAtKX4+JwW1zEZGlLBWUF/5qQHZw8KWhCkhagKb4PdXkPaxDC5bG XXKlIow7BvRjHHzbIw3qFYvNQlWDRM5oBtntA+X2E0uDSkkHNfklPNTuX1VG8GCkFsNF ADXAzO4biWbAqtaxsK/jwYoA/gdyFS84io3oprsTqHwf4UrcxGuwUXUuBvFjA27lQU1X Es7Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0U7qzEde6T8jzV3C2r40wSMNMtf6CjQ7LYgKqxS0y0nSc3a1FzZm14KkTp3ilLbw== X-Received: by 10.36.80.213 with SMTP id m204mr11316760itb.105.1490647935630; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? (t2001067c0370012828ccdc4c97036781.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i96sm790637iod.46.2017.03.27.13.52.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 27 Mar 2017 13:52:15 -0700 (PDT) To: Lee Howard , "Lubashev, Igor" , Fred Baker References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> <09c954d3805348c7bad79bd6866f0396@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <8aa95c70-5d19-4079-c30a-140404b1357e@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:52:16 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 20:52:19 -0000 I take your point, Lee, but there is a big difference between putting CIDR into the bits beyond /48 and putting semantics there. If you assign a semantic meaning to bit 63 you have potentially thrown away half of your subnets. Add bit 62 and you are potentially down to 25%, etc. Brian On 28/03/2017 09:37, Lee Howard wrote: > > The first thing I thought of was TeraStream (DT=C2=B9s forward thinking= ). > This also might support use cases Victor Kuarsingh had in mind when he > suggested v6ops consider things you can do in IPv6 that you can=C2=B9t = do in > IPv6. >=20 > I also worry about giving away bits, but as we define use cases, I expe= ct > they=C2=B9ll be to the right of the /48th bit, and often in the last 64= bits. > I=C2=B9m lesson concerned there. >=20 > Lee >=20 > On 3/27/17, 3:27 PM, "v6ops on behalf of Brian E Carpenter" > wrote= : >=20 >> Somehow I feel this is going to be a noisy discussion, since you summa= rise >> use cases by saying "there are use-cases where semantics are assigned = to >> individual bits or series of bits." This is a very good way to waste >> address space even in IPv6. We shouldn't make it too easy. I'm afraid >> that by defining such a notation, we will encourage people to do the >> wrong thing. >> >> Regards >> Brian >> >> On 28/03/2017 09:05, Lubashev, Igor wrote: >>> Thanks Fred. There is a lot more one can do with the bits available = in >>> IPv6 address allocations, so there will be more people with specific = use >>> cases this time around. We have our use cases, and by starting this >>> discussion, I am hoping that others will come forward as well. >>> >>> - Igor >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com] >>> Sent: Monday, March 27, 2017 10:46 AM >>> To: Lubashev, Igor >>> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org >>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask= >>> Notation >>> >>> We will be discussing a potential charter update on Wednesday. That >>> said, the charter today is >>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/v6ops/charter/. IMHO, if the topic is= >>> addressing architecture, that would belong in 6man, but operational u= se >>> of IPv6 addressing falls squarely into the remit of v6ops. >>> >>> The subject of discontiguous prefix use was a hot topic in the 1980's= >>> and early 1990's, hot enough that you will find references to it in R= FCs >>> 1716, 1812, and 2072. 1716 was the predecessor to 1812; the big >>> difference (says the guy who edited one into the other) is the >>> introduction of CIDR addressing, the deprecation of RIP v1, some >>> additional commentary on routing, and a whole lot of copy editing. 20= 72 >>> is an early document on network renumbering. You will find that, in >>> general, a number of people wanted the capability, but didn't have us= e >>> cases that made sense. >>> >>> If I were you, the first thing I would focus on is operational use >>> cases. Who wants it, what is their problem, and why is this a good >>> solution to it? >>> >>>> On Mar 27, 2017, at 1:09 AM, Lubashev, Igor >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I=C2=B9ve uploaded a draft, suggesting we=C2=B9ve been too tame with= IPv6 >>>> addresses, treating them to be just like IPv4 addresses, only longer= =2E >>>> =20 >>>> I=C2=B9d like to get some feedback from the WG as to the content as = well as >>>> the applicability of the subject in the WG. The link is here: >>>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask/. >>>> To save a click, I am including the abstract. >>>> =20 >>>> Many thanks in advance for frank feedback, >>>> =20 >>>> - Igor >>>> =20 >>>> ------------------------------------ >>>> Abstract >>>> =20 >>>> With significantly longer IPv6 address prefixes assigned to ISPs, >>>> operators sometimes find opportunities to assign special meaning to >>>> lower-order bit patterns. Often, these bit patterns cannot be expres= sed >>>> as an address prefix. >>>> =20 >>>> This RFC introduces IPv6 Address/Mask notation that allows one to >>>> express address groupings beyond =C2=B3all addresses that share a si= ngle >>>> prefix=C2=B2. The notation is similar to the IPv4 Address/Mask notat= ion in >>>> its expressiveness, but its syntax is derived from the traditional >>>> Address/Prefix-length notation. The traditional Address/Prefix-lengt= h >>>> notation is a special case of the Address/Mask notation. >>>> =20 >>>> For example, using this notation, both 2001:db8::/32 and >>>> 2001:db8::/ffff:ffff:: have the same meaning. However, the following= >>>> requires the new notation: 2001:db8::1234/ffff:ffff::ffff or, >>>> equivalently, 2001:db8::1234/32+::ffff. >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> v6ops mailing list >>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 > . >=20 From nobody Mon Mar 27 14:03:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA684120727 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:03:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id HVyQ52iC0jY2 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:03:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4CA512966F for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2RL3cMS017519; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:03:38 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id E1EA320B94A; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:03:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id D5080207F5E; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:03:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.84.184] ([132.166.84.184]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2RL3VAd013842; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:03:31 +0200 To: Mark Smith References: <5265b781-ab49-18ff-55fc-1647b6192a1c@gmail.com> Cc: v6ops list From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <51c4ba37-59e8-dd56-1d2d-d549302a2d0d@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 16:03:12 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 21:03:45 -0000 Le 27/03/2017 à 13:20, Mark Smith a écrit : > On 28 March 2017 at 03:40, Alexandre Petrescu > wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I support new notation that expresses a mask, different than a >> notation that expresses a prefix. >> >> I have a simpler proposal for the notation of a mask. >> >> The notation fe80:://10 expresses a mask that is different than the >> prefix fe80::/64. Remark the mask fe80:://10 could mean prefix >> fe81::/10. >> >> Also new fg00:://7 that can mean fc00::/7 and fd00::/7 (these are >> ULA addresses, and 'g' is a new character non-hex). >> >> The need of mask notation different than prefix notation stems >> from difficulty of distinguishing the fe80::/10 from the fe80::/64 >> notation of link-local addresses, and of fd00::/7 and fc00::/7 of >> ULA addresses. This need is documented more in document DOI >> 10.13140/RG.2.2.30828.36484. > > > I don't understand what the problem is. > > fe80::/64 describes a range of 2^64 addresses. YEs. > fe80::/10 describes a range of 2^118 addresses. YEs. But is "fe80::/10" the only notation describing an LL "address prefix"? I think "fe90::/10" too is an LL "address prefix". (the first 10 bits are the same as in fe80::/10). Also fe81, fe82... febf. We could write feh*::/10, or fe80:://10, or some other special writing to express that some LL prefix can be something else than fe80. > The range of addresses in fe80::/64 is a subset of the range of > addresses in fe80::/10, because a /64 specifies a smaller range of > addresses than the /10 does. Yes. > > There is no difference between fe80::/64 and fe80::/10, other than > the number of addresses they describe. YEs. But there is a difference in notation. In fe80::/64 the 64 falls way beyond the first hextet. Whereas in fe80::/10 the 10 falls within the hextet. That's a problem. And it is the same problem in ULA notation fc00 and fd00, and in IPv4 172.16/12 and 172.17/12. > How is fe80::/10 a "mask" but not a prefix (technically an "address > prefix" using RFC4291 terminology)? fe80::/10 is a "mask" in that the C code implementing "fe80::/10" is used to recognize addresses as being LL, and it's not used to put in a rt table. The first 10bits can be seen through the mask, and all the others are masked out. > If your examples were fe80::/64 and fe80::/80, is fe80::/64 now not > a prefix, but a "mask"? Each one of 64 nad 80 could be a mask, if we used it as a mask: i.e. recognize addresses. Each one of 64 and 80 could be a prefix, if we used it as a prefix: i.e. put it in the routing table. None of the 64 and 80 falls within the LL first significant hextet, so they dont generate the problem I described above. > A prefix by itself describes a range of addresses, but not how > they're being used. That use, if there is one, has to be provided > separately e.g., > > "fe80::/64, when in a route table, is a link-local route" YEs, for Ethernet. And one can't put fe81::/64 in a rt table on Ethernet; but one _can_ say that fe81::/10 is a link-local address prefix. (or I may be completely disconnected). > IPv4 is the same, "172.31.0.0/24" is making no statement of if or > how that range of IPv4 addresses are used. Well, I am not sure why you refer to 172.31.0.0/24? Maybe it is an example for you, but I guess it hits into someone's network(?) Or maybe I dont understand. But I want to say that same problem is in IPv4 too: "172.16.0.0/12" denotes as much a private space as "172.17.0.0/12" does. I wonder why the RFC decided to write 172.16 and not 172.17. On another hand, "192.168.0.0/16" falls precisely after the 168. There is no possibility to say e.g. "192.169.0.0/24 is private space". Alex > > > Regards, Mark. > From nobody Mon Mar 27 14:09:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2640B12962E for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:09:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nFlEGcNeIB08 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:09:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43258127601 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:09:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. 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pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v2RL6jIJ006758; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 17:09:01 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.33]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 29fa6v005m-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Mon, 27 Mar 2017 17:09:01 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 14:09:01 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 17:09:01 -0400 From: "Lubashev, Igor" To: "otroan@employees.org" , Lee Howard CC: Brian E Carpenter , Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation Thread-Index: AdKmvKIOboO9ECIoS5CCtdTGzUhRdAAdhDoAAACNQuAACUvfgAAAXD0AAAAmcgAACBMzoA== Date: Mon, 27 Mar 2017 21:09:00 +0000 Message-ID: <87c8a1f999934bae9df044cf3d33fbcf@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> <09c954d3805348c7bad79bd6866f0396@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <9FE21644-0097-4648-A2F1-19E72C2538A3@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <9FE21644-0097-4648-A2F1-19E72C2538A3@employees.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.43.37] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-27_19:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx 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DQo+Pj4+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+ Pj4+IHY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4+PiB2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4+PiBodHRwczov L3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQo+Pj4gDQo+Pj4gX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+PiB2Nm9wcyBtYWlsaW5n IGxpc3QNCj4+PiB2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxt YW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdjZvcHMNCj4+PiANCj4+IA0KPj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+IHY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPj4gdjZvcHNA aWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdjZvcHMN Cj4gDQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f Xw0KPiB2Nm9wcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gdjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cu aWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby92Nm9wcw0KDQo= From nobody Mon Mar 27 23:29:35 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 456BD126579 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:29:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5IhWrHe6z2VJ for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:29:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DF0AF128B44 for ; Mon, 27 Mar 2017 23:29:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1940B60699 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:29:27 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC80C60367; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:29:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id B3FF671362; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:29:26 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:29:26 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: Mark Smith , v6ops list Message-ID: <20170328062926.GP2367@Space.Net> References: <5265b781-ab49-18ff-55fc-1647b6192a1c@gmail.com> <51c4ba37-59e8-dd56-1d2d-d549302a2d0d@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <51c4ba37-59e8-dd56-1d2d-d549302a2d0d@gmail.com> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:29:33 -0000 Hi, On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 04:03:12PM -0500, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > But is "fe80::/10" the only notation describing an LL "address prefix"? > > I think "fe90::/10" too is an LL "address prefix". (the first 10 bits > are the same as in fe80::/10). Mathematically it's the same, and for good reason many implementations do not allow entering a network where the host bits are not all-zero. What is fe90::/10 trying to achieve? It's the same network, just in a notation confusing to humans. > But there is a difference in notation. > > In fe80::/64 the 64 falls way beyond the first hextet. Whereas in > fe80::/10 the 10 falls within the hextet. One thing is a /64, and one is a /10. That's *not* the same thing. > (or I may be completely disconnected). There is some evidence for that. [..] > But I want to say that same problem is in IPv4 too: > > "172.16.0.0/12" denotes as much a private space as "172.17.0.0/12" does. > I wonder why the RFC decided to write 172.16 and not 172.17. Because 172.17 is not the right *network* address for the /12. It's having host bits set. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Tue Mar 28 03:26:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 63743129353 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 03:26:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ARZwvIgDdYhi for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 03:26:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 850F6129409 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 03:26:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local ([194.88.241.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v2SAQKbl040281 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:26:20 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host [194.88.241.232] claimed to be cupcake.local Message-ID: <58DA3A49.9@foobar.org> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:26:17 +0300 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.12 (Macintosh/20170323) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Fred Baker CC: "Lubashev, Igor" , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:26:39 -0000 Fred Baker wrote: > If I were you, the first thing I would focus on is operational use > cases. Who wants it, what is their problem, and why is this a good > solution to it? I used non-contiguous netmasks once in my career, in 1997, in a situation which required some odd bgp announcements, and it was a syntactically short way of expressing what we wanted to do. The configuration was quickly reverted to standard mask-length netmasks because other operations people had problems figuring out what exactly was being announced. Surprise is not a good thing in the operational world. The problem description in the draft looks very site specific. It is difficult to see how the use case is justified by the added complication that this introduces. There are an awful lot of text parsers out there that expect mask lengths only. Nick From nobody Tue Mar 28 04:08:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1CE41294F4 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 04:08:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.396 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.396 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KqJ1nQBPRI6e for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 04:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob13.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob13.myregisteredsite.com [209.17.115.51]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A7641298A3 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 04:08:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com ([10.30.71.205]) by atl4mhob13.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2SB8FT4013658 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:08:15 -0400 Received: (qmail 10780 invoked by uid 0); 28 Mar 2017 11:08:15 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 31.133.184.209 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?31.133.184.209?) (lee@asgard.org@31.133.184.209) by 0 with ESMTPA; 28 Mar 2017 11:08:15 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.7.2.170228 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:08:10 -0500 From: Lee Howard To: Gert Doering , Alexandre Petrescu CC: v6ops list Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation References: <5265b781-ab49-18ff-55fc-1647b6192a1c@gmail.com> <51c4ba37-59e8-dd56-1d2d-d549302a2d0d@gmail.com> <20170328062926.GP2367@Space.Net> In-Reply-To: <20170328062926.GP2367@Space.Net> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:08:19 -0000 On 3/28/17, 1:29 AM, "v6ops on behalf of Gert Doering" wrote: >> But I want to say that same problem is in IPv4 too: >>=20 >> "172.16.0.0/12" denotes as much a private space as "172.17.0.0/12" does. >> I wonder why the RFC decided to write 172.16 and not 172.17. > >Because 172.17 is not the right *network* address for the /12. It's >having host bits set. 172.17.0.0/12 specifies the host with address 172.17.0.0 which lies within the network 172.16.0.0/12. We tend to be superstitious about hosts with an address of 0, but it is allowed.=20 I don=B9t see anything in rfc4291 that reserves the :0 address from a prefix. Both notations do describe the same prefix, but you need to know from context whether the notation is describing a prefix or a host. Lee From nobody Tue Mar 28 04:32:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA64E12998C for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 04:32:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DcPj8o22oN9a for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 04:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x234.google.com (mail-it0-x234.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::234]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1D4E312998B for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 04:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x234.google.com with SMTP id y18so108279036itc.0 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 04:32:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=KbCuLjbDcJ0YfqXsKeKc8cLKUmXsA10bM/FXxcQi+KU=; b=cSe6qiAFmvgvBaSfipZsswht8xvtb5KhdRIM3cVummuzsEzzu4ejpyXJ/g+7PIkYOE zbM2dUZ3ReegqxX6ciI/3jbuxA6PN0xqDwJ8SfqKrNmBqawR/4PpOZP5j+rnmg/zlNWe UpgzbANoGdQ7mdZjKUHBJtGVN+W661+6DxIrSx/bUB57NyyK80N4V1KrVLMXtfhItQZ1 Vm/xFngcs71f9XTzpVlj9MpN0kxYaydlE3EWCnxDct3JAwRS9ffduJbNoEAzQno8h6jr wO/Tlu+T4Gl9hnRJm2HaKMuKM8P0xmU5gNsd2ooXctUgOiYDXHfh43fW55xN1eOoPJDU GRPQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=KbCuLjbDcJ0YfqXsKeKc8cLKUmXsA10bM/FXxcQi+KU=; b=qiykIx1NJAZkB2w3MureIZkLG5uvyU7lVpobBy2HhYNS0gx6KUNZHFAWiGnlE6Ee6C GvRXnSYi/wYIagEv/uvo60S9YDuliEBhdz4JP0C4yKByx38Vuzv9W74Sg+MGatLpgbX4 DLjhyBY5qdZZ2mjJddVOBVmPReNks0xk+/7DYM0OsEB4BVOgp+Cg43mVz2gmGtk5pjvt HV28EHZ9tDmdUxFUANdIfTspDX3biQKDsdMJetgFlLQ4bGPdjBEs5XGzqKyQ+92sXZvu RoaOWREK72jGp0SqQ5lcJn7vbzOXns26C8cY/TRmDxhbKH9kEOoZKZaUegNj9Y94JRqD LY6g== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0shMvtC5Qoh+Zsa1Sl/w/+pn8VZ5/1RdfjUp21g8xk0pj0+tFn0empnHJguDdvig== X-Received: by 10.36.69.92 with SMTP id y89mr10920661ita.56.1490700748557; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 04:32:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1233::5c8b:aa3:1836:b8? ([2001:67c:1233:0:5c8b:aa3:1836:b8]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id q185sm1338111itc.22.2017.03.28.04.32.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 04:32:27 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:32:28 -0500 Cc: Gert Doering , Alexandre Petrescu , v6ops list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <46A58123-F075-4CAD-9E1E-165FE8C9EC74@gmail.com> References: <5265b781-ab49-18ff-55fc-1647b6192a1c@gmail.com> <51c4ba37-59e8-dd56-1d2d-d549302a2d0d@gmail.com> <20170328062926.GP2367@Space.Net> To: Lee Howard X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:32:31 -0000 > On Mar 28, 2017, at 6:08 AM, Lee Howard wrote: >=20 > I don=C4=85t see anything in rfc4291 that reserves the :0 address from = a prefix. 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([2601:449:8400:bbc0:571:5ba5:d3f6:7acd]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h71sm1787984ioe.9.2017.03.28.04.53.28 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 04:53:28 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: David Farmer X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (14D27) In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:53:27 -0500 Cc: Gert Doering , Alexandre Petrescu , v6ops list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <4CCBACCF-95E3-489C-9979-E483029EEDF1@umn.edu> References: <5265b781-ab49-18ff-55fc-1647b6192a1c@gmail.com> <51c4ba37-59e8-dd56-1d2d-d549302a2d0d@gmail.com> <20170328062926.GP2367@Space.Net> To: Lee Howard Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:53:32 -0000 Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 28, 2017, at 06:08, Lee Howard wrote: >=20 > We tend to be superstitious about hosts with an address of 0, but it is > allowed.=20 > I don=C2=B9t see anything in rfc4291 that reserves the :0 address from a p= refix. >=20 > Lee It may not be reserved but it is at least somewhat special as it is defined a= s the subnet router anycast address, see RFC4291 sec 2.6.1.= From nobody Tue Mar 28 05:50:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9E05212751F for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:50:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.333 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.333 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wKn6L6JItGiB for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2835B124281 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:50:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2SCoBqw045712; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:50:11 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 370E420BD05; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:50:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2784920BD14; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:50:11 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.84.132] ([132.166.84.132]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2SCo96Q022695; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:50:10 +0200 To: Gert Doering References: <5265b781-ab49-18ff-55fc-1647b6192a1c@gmail.com> <51c4ba37-59e8-dd56-1d2d-d549302a2d0d@gmail.com> <20170328062926.GP2367@Space.Net> Cc: Mark Smith , v6ops list From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <229cce4e-a392-63b1-7544-ab79063c5b75@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:49:50 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170328062926.GP2367@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:50:15 -0000 Le 28/03/2017 01:29, Gert Doering a crit : > Hi, > > On Mon, Mar 27, 2017 at 04:03:12PM -0500, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >> But is "fe80::/10" the only notation describing an LL "address prefix"? >> >> I think "fe90::/10" too is an LL "address prefix". (the first 10 bits >> are the same as in fe80::/10). > > Mathematically it's the same, and for good reason many implementations > do not allow entering a network where the host bits are not all-zero. > > What is fe90::/10 trying to achieve? It's the same network, just in a > notation confusing to humans. Well, maybe I just want it to be different than other networks: I set on each host addresses fe90::/10. Nothing wrong with that. >> But there is a difference in notation. >> >> In fe80::/64 the 64 falls way beyond the first hextet. Whereas in >> fe80::/10 the 10 falls within the hextet. > > One thing is a /64, and one is a /10. That's *not* the same thing. I agree. > >> (or I may be completely disconnected). > > There is some evidence for that. > > [..] >> But I want to say that same problem is in IPv4 too: >> >> "172.16.0.0/12" denotes as much a private space as "172.17.0.0/12" does. >> I wonder why the RFC decided to write 172.16 and not 172.17. > > Because 172.17 is not the right *network* address for the /12. It's > having host bits set. Well I disagree. We talk about subnet mask here. Is there some mandate to mandate that the host bits are 0 when we talk about the subnet mask? Alex > > Gert Doering > -- NetMaster > From nobody Tue Mar 28 05:55:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A2541243FE for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:55:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ByVkqrax8gwJ for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:55:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9D6C01299BC for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:55:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3321D61A02 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:55:35 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E942660B6B; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:55:34 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id DAB6671FA2; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:55:34 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:55:34 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: Gert Doering , Mark Smith , v6ops list Message-ID: <20170328125534.GD2367@Space.Net> References: <5265b781-ab49-18ff-55fc-1647b6192a1c@gmail.com> <51c4ba37-59e8-dd56-1d2d-d549302a2d0d@gmail.com> <20170328062926.GP2367@Space.Net> <229cce4e-a392-63b1-7544-ab79063c5b75@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="uE7iWnZRbw6UclLN" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <229cce4e-a392-63b1-7544-ab79063c5b75@gmail.com> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:55:50 -0000 --uE7iWnZRbw6UclLN Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 07:49:50AM -0500, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > Is there some mandate to mandate that the host bits are 0 when we talk=20 > about the subnet mask? That very much depends on what you are trying to specify. =20 If you want to specify "I'm talking about that *subnet*", it makes no sense whatsoever to have host bits set. If you want to specify "this host has address and is part of a /y" (like in, "2001:db8::1/64"), of course you set host bits. But talking about "the subnet 172.17.0.0/12" does not make any sense, in particular because it's the same network as "172.16.0.0/12", and=20 specifying anything else (when you talk about *the subnet*) is just line noise. Confusing readers at best. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --uE7iWnZRbw6UclLN Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAljaXUMACgkQ31bAZeTO f8UGURAAlPBhRFRkFKaGWWtw0oS6QLHO8PbQmTQz58ryrc0LqOIwIvgSpVvsVEzz kysesUZFEZmQkM8/qWACO9iJS6n5vHu2FTIzhuV9xnH/8xOk4ej1G/fKKgMSsLhV ArV00+T5HS2TTm+xsdE2vwqoEHVqp55V06b5OkV1Qyik8VCokkRShHJyN4/ahGpA xb3iyyqHFPNbsFywUtqXFjAVwkdZt5W7QrgweT+2d9u1Tki0VT0rWx1wUnVzT+VF 1R1F1NhCE6teiHnu2vCEGwwGBekfL5qTyZct5nGL8mSkpFu6qgF405E3iohjNHuz 6kz7VAuuluPMPdz6zEPHd3431H7wCHWEql2wl9GB2qwFrVi1bZqxsu/djBPQRqFY bQYvf+XuJ+GbFOUcVXNg0RkChkEobKQMqm/pD18K3eAVpXWqUd0rPV2ueZ+WeS7e kjnDe2SBwgNTQm6zQdw3fvwfbNk0NzVvSFFp1cyBsFQYi1xgRvtvtRXcQBj4vJQT po+OZ2Bwofi4U+Pre9jlTU9ZBEwyZtOt2AvhAcUF8TevoYC8yXLWSkhvFRbBDqjZ n8QEBghLxDtIFNR3XN4jhpeSGotaaN2GBv92vqdj9jf+Xe8DaIFvc94f/1Kkg/H8 IniFd/Hj2bfpkMwrZxU/iXybfA4Ar1znY6y1iU9JAkipkWewHPg= =u7nV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --uE7iWnZRbw6UclLN-- From nobody Tue Mar 28 05:56:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F299A1299DA for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:56:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mhVCrnfGYrzp for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:56:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x22d.google.com (mail-it0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 562A91299CD for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:55:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id 190so17151643itm.0 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:55:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=zUKx8FISJE/j3V6ZgV3WLdMZ5MuDKPK510LZ8T4r7us=; b=VxYkfw7FvkVqo8VjFfq86vH9kDIbXWSc8rsTNKmNntNE7nFfMSmlqRkjOo1LaCFImI 15rDAJG6Z+9X4IvdHY8xYc/SWRL0/68slQYmQiUz9DhCaR1XQgOr3WGc5bt3KDa8gGvW AzKbYjohg4HA3Pscir0JbC8JNjVzlNiDoU4sIZn91wJZjA3ClLsGzG2x1P7cHIsJLeR6 XNOv9NJD07yiMx29g68dxD2o31hxDccKV5R0o0XW4oqRhscjgqOq3nll0uhhye6m80jo YuiVVgQZ+4zfMTMZvM44CimroyQlRyOWARDeMb3PCkOS8bRCVYgEXhi09fCQh0etQUdq nUBg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=zUKx8FISJE/j3V6ZgV3WLdMZ5MuDKPK510LZ8T4r7us=; b=VQBzEV5ZsIvXQDcBYPHUJvJyp1eMtu6CPAEdwHIveWFFMVvhI21mFcDi5rRWUjUW9c VInOIiiifxX6qGi1QbGLNs4SbYUkyvw3x58yd7y90ABz3hLtr58vCteucTNwP0sbU/2z zJipOgTs2IU8cR0gMl5j8rczbB6Yx26uHlzfIEthRh/7enGU05BmzD/JF+jSOCd5JvlZ rTYYzUzXEhegcu1ODX1Truse3AkuNzdFCAun7khY031R5D/Y7/v8u3YAMWQlAGNnL4cs jXTTO2i3aFIpWxAxRryfeOpwG+iIydTP23tdDhbwMtmTh04VAE+tpXgP5wkl9oLn2DU0 3xeQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H03QJGowQuaAejc/sTFN/HqLn2Y7pr7ysfp69spOLYUDB4aXnmrfEoFG1aenVRuEg== X-Received: by 10.107.185.135 with SMTP id j129mr24757907iof.3.1490705758767; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:55:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dhcp-b868.meeting.ietf.org (dhcp-b868.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.184.104]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p204sm1437747itp.19.2017.03.28.05.55.57 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 05:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <229cce4e-a392-63b1-7544-ab79063c5b75@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:55:58 -0500 Cc: Gert Doering , v6ops list Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <6BE8068C-4FC9-4EBE-B27D-84C592E192A5@gmail.com> References: <5265b781-ab49-18ff-55fc-1647b6192a1c@gmail.com> <51c4ba37-59e8-dd56-1d2d-d549302a2d0d@gmail.com> <20170328062926.GP2367@Space.Net> <229cce4e-a392-63b1-7544-ab79063c5b75@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:56:07 -0000 > On Mar 28, 2017, at 7:49 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 > Is there some mandate to mandate that the host bits are 0 when we talk = about the subnet mask? When we're talking about subnet masks (or lengths), we aren't talking = about addresses. We identify an address (which might be ::) and give it = a length, but that is simply for notational convenience - if an address = is important, we don't have to specify it separately. The "prefix" part = would be the bitwise AND of the address and the mask or length.= From nobody Tue Mar 28 06:16:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2E24F129983 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:16:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DLOHeSwWnAvX for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D9461299D3 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:16:02 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 29frf0r09d-20 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:16:02 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:15:42 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:15:42 -0400 From: "Lubashev, Igor" To: Nick Hilliard , Fred Baker CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation Thread-Index: AdKmvKIOboO9ECIoS5CCtdTGzUhRdAAdhDoAACcj/YAAAtlQ4A== Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:15:42 +0000 Message-ID: <2c48e21735224145ab3037ad1467a2a8@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> <58DA3A49.9@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: <58DA3A49.9@foobar.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.43.144] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-28_11:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703280119 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-28_11:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703280118 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:16:42 -0000 SW50ZXItZG9tYWluIHJvdXRpbmcgaXMgbm90IGxpa2VseSB0byBiZSBhIHVzZSBjYXNlIGZvciB3 aGVyZSBJIHNlZSBhZGRyZXNzL21hc2sgbm90YXRpb24gZXh0ZW5zaXZlbHkgdXNlZC4gIE1vc3Qg dXNlIGNhc2VzIGFyZSBsaWtlbHkgdG8gYmUgc2l0ZS1zcGVjaWZpYy4gIFdlJ3ZlIHVzZWQgaXQg d2l0aCBpbnRlcm5hbCBmaXJld2FsbHMsIHFvcyBwb2xpY2llcywgaW50ZXJuYWwgcm91dGluZy4N Cg0KVG90YWxseSBhZ3JlZSB0aGF0IHN1cnByaXNlcyBhcmUgbm90IGdvb2QgdGhpbmdzLCBlc3Bl Y2lhbGx5IGJlY2F1c2UgdGhleSB0ZW5kIG5vdCB0byB3b3JrIGluIHN1cnByaXNpbmcgd2F5cy4g IEhlbmNlIHRoaXMgZHJhZnQuDQoNCi0gSWdvcg0KDQoNCi0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0t LS0tDQpGcm9tOiBOaWNrIEhpbGxpYXJkIFttYWlsdG86bmlja0Bmb29iYXIub3JnXSANClNlbnQ6 IFR1ZXNkYXksIE1hcmNoIDI4LCAyMDE3IDU6MjYgQU0NClRvOiBGcmVkIEJha2VyIDxmcmVkYmFr ZXIuaWV0ZkBnbWFpbC5jb20+DQpDYzogTHViYXNoZXYsIElnb3IgPGlsdWJhc2hlQGFrYW1haS5j b20+OyB2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KU3ViamVjdDogUmU6IFt2Nm9wc10gZHJhZnQtbHViYXNoZXYt aXB2Ni1hZGRyLW1hc2s6IElQdjYgQWRkcmVzcy9NYXNrIE5vdGF0aW9uDQoNCkZyZWQgQmFrZXIg d3JvdGU6DQo+IElmIEkgd2VyZSB5b3UsIHRoZSBmaXJzdCB0aGluZyBJIHdvdWxkIGZvY3VzIG9u IGlzIG9wZXJhdGlvbmFsIHVzZSANCj4gY2FzZXMuIFdobyB3YW50cyBpdCwgd2hhdCBpcyB0aGVp ciBwcm9ibGVtLCBhbmQgd2h5IGlzIHRoaXMgYSBnb29kIA0KPiBzb2x1dGlvbiB0byBpdD8NCg0K SSB1c2VkIG5vbi1jb250aWd1b3VzIG5ldG1hc2tzIG9uY2UgaW4gbXkgY2FyZWVyLCBpbiAxOTk3 LCBpbiBhIHNpdHVhdGlvbiB3aGljaCByZXF1aXJlZCBzb21lIG9kZCBiZ3AgYW5ub3VuY2VtZW50 cywgYW5kIGl0IHdhcyBhIHN5bnRhY3RpY2FsbHkgc2hvcnQgd2F5IG9mIGV4cHJlc3Npbmcgd2hh dCB3ZSB3YW50ZWQgdG8gZG8uICBUaGUgY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiB3YXMgcXVpY2tseSByZXZlcnRl ZCB0byBzdGFuZGFyZCBtYXNrLWxlbmd0aCBuZXRtYXNrcyBiZWNhdXNlIG90aGVyIG9wZXJhdGlv bnMgcGVvcGxlIGhhZCBwcm9ibGVtcyBmaWd1cmluZyBvdXQgd2hhdCBleGFjdGx5IHdhcyBiZWlu ZyBhbm5vdW5jZWQuICBTdXJwcmlzZSBpcyBub3QgYSBnb29kIHRoaW5nIGluIHRoZSBvcGVyYXRp b25hbCB3b3JsZC4NCg0KVGhlIHByb2JsZW0gZGVzY3JpcHRpb24gaW4gdGhlIGRyYWZ0IGxvb2tz IHZlcnkgc2l0ZSBzcGVjaWZpYy4gSXQgaXMgZGlmZmljdWx0IHRvIHNlZSBob3cgdGhlIHVzZSBj YXNlIGlzIGp1c3RpZmllZCBieSB0aGUgYWRkZWQgY29tcGxpY2F0aW9uIHRoYXQgdGhpcyBpbnRy b2R1Y2VzLiAgVGhlcmUgYXJlIGFuIGF3ZnVsIGxvdCBvZiB0ZXh0IHBhcnNlcnMgb3V0IHRoZXJl IHRoYXQgZXhwZWN0IG1hc2sgbGVuZ3RocyBvbmx5Lg0KDQpOaWNrDQo= From nobody Tue Mar 28 06:25:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94DD91298B7 for ; 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[Sec 4.1] To be a valid definition for just a group of addresses, the addre= ss part MUST NOT have any bits outside of the mask set."'=20 So it is all about the context. I.e. the output of "ip addr" vs "ip route"= on Linux. - Igor -----Original Message----- From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 7:56 AM To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notat= ion > On Mar 28, 2017, at 7:49 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >=20 > Is there some mandate to mandate that the host bits are 0 when we talk ab= out the subnet mask? When we're talking about subnet masks (or lengths), we aren't talking about= addresses. We identify an address (which might be ::) and give it a length= , but that is simply for notational convenience - if an address is importan= t, we don't have to specify it separately. The "prefix" part would be the b= itwise AND of the address and the mask or length. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Tue Mar 28 06:45:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4298E1296B5 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:45:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -5.395 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-5.395 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0ID9BDTyTFpw for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob07.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob07.myregisteredsite.com [209.17.115.45]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6029212953C for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 06:45:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com ([10.30.71.207]) by atl4mhob07.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2SDjoOr019404 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:45:50 -0400 Received: (qmail 18572 invoked by uid 0); 28 Mar 2017 13:45:50 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 31.133.184.209 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?31.133.184.209?) (lee@asgard.org@31.133.184.209) by 0 with ESMTPA; 28 Mar 2017 13:45:49 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.7.2.170228 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:45:44 -0500 From: Lee Howard To: David Farmer CC: Gert Doering , Alexandre Petrescu , v6ops list Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation References: <5265b781-ab49-18ff-55fc-1647b6192a1c@gmail.com> <51c4ba37-59e8-dd56-1d2d-d549302a2d0d@gmail.com> <20170328062926.GP2367@Space.Net> <4CCBACCF-95E3-489C-9979-E483029EEDF1@umn.edu> In-Reply-To: <4CCBACCF-95E3-489C-9979-E483029EEDF1@umn.edu> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="EUC-KR" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 13:45:54 -0000 On 3/28/17, 6:53 AM, "David Farmer" wrote: > > >Sent from my iPhone > >> On Mar 28, 2017, at 06:08, Lee Howard wrote: >>=20 >> We tend to be superstitious about hosts with an address of 0, but it is >> allowed.=20 >> I don=A9=F6t see anything in rfc4291 that reserves the :0 address from a >>prefix. >>=20 >> Lee > >It may not be reserved but it is at least somewhat special as it is >defined as the subnet router anycast address, see RFC4291 sec 2.6.1. Ah, there it is. Thanks. It=A1=AFs still only for the ::0 on the prefix; billions of addresses ending in :0 are allowed. The difference between 2001:db8:1234:5678::0/64 and 2001:db8:1234:5678:9abd:def0:1234:000/64 is meaningful; the difference between 2001:db8:1234:5678::/48 and 2001:db8:1234:5679::/48 is not; they are both valid host addresses. Lee From nobody Tue Mar 28 07:14:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E694912741D for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:14:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b_FonFfUbMgF for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:14:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com (p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com [135.11.29.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6899F1294CE for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:14:31 -0700 (PDT) X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2GMAABPbtpY/wUHmMZTChkBAQEBAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQcBAQEBAYMPRWGBCweNapFQiBeNNYFLQyaFfAKDIT8YAQIBAQEBAQEBA2g?= =?us-ascii?q?ogmJGIQgvAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBARwCD0EBARgBAQEBAgESKDQLBQcEAgEIDQQEA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBChQJByERFAkIAgQBDQUIGolNAw0IAaF5jQkmAocMDYMLAQEBAQEBAQEBAQE?= =?us-ascii?q?BAQEBAQEBAQEBHYZPhG6CUYFbKoMygjEFnCY6AYZ7hxoBhwiIIYZCim+Iex85g?= =?us-ascii?q?QRZFUGGWHWIYAGBDAEBAQ?= X-IPAS-Result: =?us-ascii?q?A2GMAABPbtpY/wUHmMZTChkBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQcBAQEBAYM?= =?us-ascii?q?PRWGBCweNapFQiBeNNYFLQyaFfAKDIT8YAQIBAQEBAQEBA2gogmJGIQgvAQEBA?= =?us-ascii?q?QEBAQEBAQEBARwCD0EBARgBAQEBAgESKDQLBQcEAgEIDQQEAQEBChQJByERFAk?= =?us-ascii?q?IAgQBDQUIGolNAw0IAaF5jQkmAocMDYMLAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBAQEBH?= =?us-ascii?q?YZPhG6CUYFbKoMygjEFnCY6AYZ7hxoBhwiIIYZCim+Iex85gQRZFUGGWHWIYAG?= =?us-ascii?q?BDAEBAQ?= X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.36,236,1486443600"; d="scan'208";a="233265457" Received: from unknown (HELO co300216-co-erhwest.avaya.com) ([198.152.7.5]) by p-us1-iereast-outbound.us1.avaya.com with ESMTP; 28 Mar 2017 10:14:29 -0400 X-OutboundMail_SMTP: 1 Received: from unknown (HELO AZ-US1EXHC04.global.avaya.com) ([135.11.85.15]) by co300216-co-erhwest-out.avaya.com with ESMTP/TLS/DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA; 28 Mar 2017 10:14:29 -0400 Received: from AZ-US1EXMB03.global.avaya.com ([fe80::a5d3:ad50:5be9:1922]) by AZ-US1EXHC04.global.avaya.com ([135.11.85.15]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:14:16 -0400 From: "Mudric, Dusan (Dusan)" To: "Lubashev, Igor" , Fred Baker , Alexandre Petrescu CC: v6ops list Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation Thread-Index: AQHSpz2LboO9ECIoS5CCtdTGzUhRdKGqDd0AgABqSQCAAAG2AIAACAaA///F3XA= Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:14:11 +0000 Message-ID: <9142206A0C5BF24CB22755C8EC422E4585A274C6@AZ-US1EXMB03.global.avaya.com> References: <5265b781-ab49-18ff-55fc-1647b6192a1c@gmail.com> <51c4ba37-59e8-dd56-1d2d-d549302a2d0d@gmail.com> <20170328062926.GP2367@Space.Net> <229cce4e-a392-63b1-7544-ab79063c5b75@gmail.com> <6BE8068C-4FC9-4EBE-B27D-84C592E192A5@gmail.com> <5b1a95f6d5c345b8ae9b435a85d2c30a@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <5b1a95f6d5c345b8ae9b435a85d2c30a@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.11.85.49] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:14:35 -0000 RFC 4291 does not well define the address syntax. It combines the prefix an= d the address syntax into one: Section 2.3 " the node address 2001:0DB8:0:CD30:123:4567:89AB:CDEF and its subnet number 2001:0DB8:0:CD30::/60 can be abbreviated as 2001:0DB8:0:CD30:123:4567:89AB:CDEF/60" This is not a good example. The prefix-length of 60 does not mean the four = bits after 'CD3' must be zero. The node address with the same prefix can be= also 2001:0DB8:0:CD3F:123:4567:89AB:CDEF/60.=20 The prefix-length should not be used in the address syntax (e.g. use 2001:0= DB8:0:CD30:123:4567:89AB:CDEF address and not 2001:0DB8:0:CD30:123:4567:89A= B:CDEF/60 address). The prefix syntax must define that all bits outside the prefix-length must = be set to zero. So, fe90::/10, fe81::/10 are not the valid LL prefixes. With these changes, do we still need the address mask? Dusan -----Original Message----- From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Lubashev, Igor Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 9:25 AM To: Fred Baker; Alexandre Petrescu Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notat= ion The way I put it in the draft: '[Sec 1.1] Depending on the context, netmask and prefix length notations ca= n specify either a "group of addresses" or "a group of addresses and a spec= ific address within that group". ... [Sec 4.1] To be a valid definition for just a group of addresses, the addre= ss part MUST NOT have any bits outside of the mask set."'=20 So it is all about the context. I.e. the output of "ip addr" vs "ip route"= on Linux. - Igor -----Original Message----- From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 7:56 AM To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: v6ops list Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notat= ion > On Mar 28, 2017, at 7:49 AM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >=20 > Is there some mandate to mandate that the host bits are 0 when we talk ab= out the subnet mask? When we're talking about subnet masks (or lengths), we aren't talking about= addresses. We identify an address (which might be ::) and give it a length= , but that is simply for notational convenience - if an address is importan= t, we don't have to specify it separately. The "prefix" part would be the b= itwise AND of the address and the mask or length. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman= _listinfo_v6ops&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=3DUT3Bk9cbLeaJxhf3i= CrhIoUWB8YLZU23029sMQGQ2kY&m=3DPltSWhkoDeatKmZk5zfNYvyTAwOGGXs1QxoG61Typ2k&= s=3D9uH3IB_DbRwssRzuN8MTq_GsOzak8m7UmOaFkoX1Gro&e=3D=20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-3A__www.ietf.org_mailman= _listinfo_v6ops&d=3DDwICAg&c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=3DUT3Bk9cbLeaJxhf3i= CrhIoUWB8YLZU23029sMQGQ2kY&m=3DPltSWhkoDeatKmZk5zfNYvyTAwOGGXs1QxoG61Typ2k&= s=3D9uH3IB_DbRwssRzuN8MTq_GsOzak8m7UmOaFkoX1Gro&e=3D=20 From nobody Tue Mar 28 07:23:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 644E1129553 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:22:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=employees.org; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=otroan@employees.org header.d=employees.org Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UIgGE-aH48IW for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from esa01.kjsl.com (esa01.kjsl.com [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::87]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7501C1294B8 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cowbell.employees.org ([198.137.202.74]) by esa01.kjsl.com with ESMTP; 28 Mar 2017 14:22:57 +0000 Received: from cowbell.employees.org (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B1E6D788A; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:22:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; s=selector1; bh=RU+mXGv3F08nZZJrIzXzbfp7J+4=; b= bn0AWFfNBlbHA85hJO0PINIiC1iPHrJiZ1mYocgglrBzW5MDnbrv+k4bp0Ugfzrq VhVE+wZ86c+hqFe7DWff4zAcdRJgo67PjUX/jOJ5wHQl5bEqERmdzeJh+oXR3+Jk oulZlAxS67veymjUD7t55efkWkddYxjsfQr6X5Gm7YE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=employees.org; h=from :message-id:content-type:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to :cc:to:references; q=dns; s=selector1; b=Llzi4suSmnHhKlIKGE+RYqD UNtXL7stf0cEYZmZBHmNXAdhqMbzE39yauZeomgDhaEZZXe9VO4r5lgx0Tmg2Xvw nyR9b+VK5WLajrJyvjga/Z5kiKlxalEvi0Ruxokam7KSsFeNmAlc3v+YQgHAzM5/ C7nViSmu9cgi/3LyOL5M= Received: from h.hanazo.no (dhcp-8e77.meeting.ietf.org [31.133.142.119]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) (Authenticated sender: otroan) by cowbell.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0B618D788D; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 07:22:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 75921A591258; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:22:56 -0500 (CDT) From: otroan@employees.org Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_E0286EED-53E3-4DC1-8F6B-0D3D1C31E74B"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:22:55 -0500 In-Reply-To: <9142206A0C5BF24CB22755C8EC422E4585A274C6@AZ-US1EXMB03.global.avaya.com> Cc: "Lubashev, Igor" , Fred Baker , Alexandre Petrescu , v6ops list To: "Mudric, Dusan (Dusan)" References: <5265b781-ab49-18ff-55fc-1647b6192a1c@gmail.com> <51c4ba37-59e8-dd56-1d2d-d549302a2d0d@gmail.com> <20170328062926.GP2367@Space.Net> <229cce4e-a392-63b1-7544-ab79063c5b75@gmail.com> <6BE8068C-4FC9-4EBE-B27D-84C592E192A5@gmail.com> <5b1a95f6d5c345b8ae9b435a85d2c30a@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <9142206A0C5BF24CB22755C8EC422E4585A274C6@AZ-US1EXMB03.global.avaya.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:22:59 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_E0286EED-53E3-4DC1-8F6B-0D3D1C31E74B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > RFC 4291 does not well define the address syntax. It combines the = prefix and the address syntax into one: >=20 > Section 2.3 > " the node address 2001:0DB8:0:CD30:123:4567:89AB:CDEF > and its subnet number 2001:0DB8:0:CD30::/60 >=20 > can be abbreviated as 2001:0DB8:0:CD30:123:4567:89AB:CDEF/60" >=20 > This is not a good example. The prefix-length of 60 does not mean the = four bits after 'CD3' must be zero. The node address with the same = prefix can be also 2001:0DB8:0:CD3F:123:4567:89AB:CDEF/60. >=20 > The prefix-length should not be used in the address syntax (e.g. use = 2001:0DB8:0:CD30:123:4567:89AB:CDEF address and not = 2001:0DB8:0:CD30:123:4567:89AB:CDEF/60 address). >=20 > The prefix syntax must define that all bits outside the prefix-length = must be set to zero. So, fe90::/10, fe81::/10 are not the valid LL = prefixes. >=20 > With these changes, do we still need the address mask? Discontiguous masks are probably easiest to explain in the context of = ACLs. Multiple providers assign a /56. Finance department has the last /64 in = that delegation. A single ACL can then match on that with a mask of: 0:0:0:00FF:: You can imagine lots of these examples. Cheers, Ole --Apple-Mail=_E0286EED-53E3-4DC1-8F6B-0D3D1C31E74B Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJY2nHAAAoJEL7aWKiYQt92MiIP/1rN64VoBrhc1gys8hhbN71X kxFf+fpwvxzJ5Q0ejDpxRlEHzerJCeKNHz2Lg5CS1i8hZ6miDGBoWtgRrmS2yHfD os091nemk6MJq3wqDvwFZPihSwuxLJAa+S/4HSbMyY6PltIWxjJOpdqrqjCsXlnN ypaPmBDdf9E/4eybmpdOtvK47zetOSdoUIcaOpEOWCphVTkXQfTHYxcJPO/7O6p1 SbQ5CnDZRLSniCFxQUsU8SumSIA4Amk/X9YYSGVTODHQh7HyndkK4r2vOUNzkYVH MgZNnWILNbvPH7swqYf39pVJ1/1CeTV2TO/CMyl32lURus4fAAW2yuvmNd29JucP wfJFdTkDp1Nin/kmJAtFZar0o940KuISQbz3Xyk/ZshE6TY2nsrE7Jrr950XaqKE CC20OhG+4DhtXPqxRO2o+6e1NWuplTeDJZ1N/QqY9YUKAOf6hHqugI6eZDt1Jhai VqjVDXSv1K7/uAQjOxv5EcHHlqrAmWLYs1E2+RsylocND6OFVHowJrp6KgQPRBvd QRxTzHQN1t21JIMRoaGRcj6cP0pzNifdzNT1Lhnc/O/KCcTi0wtYZsGdy6Sd2fPX zINP2+XdoN9TAjkTmJhlK0Xz+lmrq49D94X5s9ZpAaVvLyKBUM4GRAN73twLcaI2 ssRALPTMADhkqWsB1yS3 =B04p -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_E0286EED-53E3-4DC1-8F6B-0D3D1C31E74B-- From nobody Tue Mar 28 08:41:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 03E03120725 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:41:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-2.796, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bNKnPHoedknP for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob19.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob19.myregisteredsite.com [209.17.115.112]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34D301294A8 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 08:41:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com ([10.30.71.209]) by atl4mhob19.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id v2SFfalN023717 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 11:41:37 -0400 Received: (qmail 16770 invoked by uid 0); 28 Mar 2017 15:41:36 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 31.133.184.209 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?31.133.184.209?) (lee@asgard.org@31.133.184.209) by 0 with ESMTPA; 28 Mar 2017 15:41:36 -0000 User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/14.7.2.170228 Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 10:41:25 -0500 From: Lee Howard To: IPv6 Operations Message-ID: Thread-Topic: Need Jabber scribe, note-takers Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Need Jabber scribe, note-takers X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 15:41:44 -0000 Looking for volunteers for these roles for our meeting tomorrow. For what it=B9s worth, I have found that Jabber and Etherpad both work fine on the v6only network. Lee From nobody Tue Mar 28 09:06:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1DD43128792 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:06:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lH3xDObv1iar for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:06:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0ADFF12944F for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 09:06:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from crumpet.local (089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v2SG6Yth082586 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:06:34 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-070074.ntlworld.ie [89.101.70.74] (may be forged) claimed to be crumpet.local Message-ID: <58DA8A08.8060309@foobar.org> Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 17:06:32 +0100 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.12 (Macintosh/20170323) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lubashev, Igor" CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> <58DA3A49.9@foobar.org> <2c48e21735224145ab3037ad1467a2a8@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> In-Reply-To: <2c48e21735224145ab3037ad1467a2a8@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 16:06:45 -0000 Lubashev, Igor wrote: > Inter-domain routing is not likely to be a use case for where I see > address/mask notation extensively used. Most use cases are likely to > be site-specific. We've used it with internal firewalls, qos > policies, internal routing. sorry, I meant company-specific rather than site-specific. I.e. your justification is that the draft is of interest to some companies who create semantic classifications based on bitwise netmasking. In my case, inter-domain routing was the only use case I found for this feature in either ipv4 or ipv6, over tens of companies ranging from ixp to enterprise to mid-size SP (access, transit, content, etc), and using a very wide range of equipment and features over twenty something years. Out of all that, categorisation of addresses using non-contiguous bit selection was mildly useful on a sole occasion, but not useful enough to want to keep the configuration in production. Other people will have different experiences on how often they had real operational use-cases for this feature. I've no doubt that Akamai could find plenty of use cases for this feature, nor do I question Akamai's size. But the issue that this WG needs to consider is whether the benefits of this change are worth the extra parser complication that would need to be built into all text-based ipv6 address consumer code and lack of backwards compatibility for the proposed syntax; personally, I don't think the arguments are compelling. Nick From nobody Tue Mar 28 12:22:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 67E4F129A11 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:22:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=instituut-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0tzW1IfXd_zi for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:22:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x235.google.com (mail-it0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D1F91129A05 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:22:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x235.google.com with SMTP id 76so15264086itj.0 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:22:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=instituut-net.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version:content-disposition :user-agent; bh=jA8wRo9X2NdPLnNB2iu5WF/tC9MPQQZhIgJw+klOZTY=; b=DC04nKJNjP9X3a64RHX2JXQBR/0IeUBZsuWFIUROywhFv4XKwHXROSPd6QSBj6DR8r fKCmJVsmLnyvubAtWc9YfMea8txZiCuTp6ZnPrYzds/d+BBJVXL3PDIoyGjfLwiOen4p RquwfogXE4DIf3aQUwCpH49L/MjojZKsTpP6wC/MklrRnN7XuNtOqS/QlsRErIuP/B3h PTlKM1Y6MFVGR3rprQaZ44nZ5TizZe97Z1b5OCY7Y0AGFM0aIhPjASkfL9ljSRA1BzmI wrUBFY0q6Afmn26uiNuJM3EocvxJJOuci5CTBUa7f8bkqkXTA/G4RguxppmNVVSCR9uh IW/w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:date:from:to:subject:message-id:mime-version :content-disposition:user-agent; bh=jA8wRo9X2NdPLnNB2iu5WF/tC9MPQQZhIgJw+klOZTY=; b=Xv4kVvjAwWDjWr2F3m3b0p1/HQ71duMIEGqvGUiPiFIXLCMcAzstIZyBH1O9WkRoQe bDu1CybusbjMTVMOVrfoiYk37yTo+18d0vxcW7pwtMaZXpNVaQwvMuR/frahagPaqlzS +tzekmyAH6ZZIdLJnVAp2asGxRsZwoTBS+WXxEHS5ZkLciHAZUGpo2Y261djmoLiNL2w AflpM+gF2dZ7TbaAx9rVDr/UMQ2dyi9rTdNlj4l2ZPQbTNJp/36lfg9t3iESoxwRyO+I PhQtXBe9LY/CxSGddpry9kB02Yq8O2mrwzc7YimM8G1VYPdH1GVN7YvHyQmLkI4A3JJ6 tY0Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1lB+Z7UIISGbg+CbdlxXL/or+F13gNLjLi7qYF2Me2w8vKyK4PWf2yB7O/KQ8MUw== X-Received: by 10.36.212.129 with SMTP id x123mr16403380itg.103.1490728926785; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:22:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (dhcp-86cf.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.134.207]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k16sm1964567itk.2.2017.03.28.12.22.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:22:05 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:22:03 -0500 From: Job Snijders To: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170328192203.byuu3fboclfeltk2@Vurt.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett User-Agent: NeoMutt/20170306 (1.8.0) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] link "Structural Deficits of IPv6 & Their Implications" X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:22:11 -0000 Hi group, At RIPE 74 there will be an interesting presentation: https://www.ernw.de/download/TROOPERS_IPv6SecSummit_ERNW_IPv6_Structural_Deficits.pdf (source: https://twitter.com/Enno_Insinuator/status/846797407174217728) Kind regards, Job From nobody Tue Mar 28 12:39:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45E2012955F for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:39:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YsszcD79zbJk for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:39:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.ernw.net (mx1.ernw.net [IPv6:2003:60:4010:10a0::11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68E0512955E for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 12:39:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.ernw.net (unknown [172.31.1.30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail1.ernw.net", Issuer "ernw ca1" (verified OK)) by mx1.ernw.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B53842730F for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:39:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ws26.ernw.net (unknown [172.31.1.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "ws26.ernw.net", Issuer "ernw ca1" (verified OK)) by mail1.ernw.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C3BA92AFB79 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:39:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ws26.ernw.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id AF0E639377; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:39:20 +0200 (CEST) Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 21:39:20 +0200 From: Enno Rey To: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170328193920.GZ89609@ernw.de> References: <20170328192203.byuu3fboclfeltk2@Vurt.local> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20170328192203.byuu3fboclfeltk2@Vurt.local> User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.1 (2016-10-04) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] link "Structural Deficits of IPv6 & Their Implications" X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 28 Mar 2017 19:39:25 -0000 Hi, @Job: thanks for mentioning. Evidently it will be updated; the link below is from 2014. Everybody enjoy #IETF98, cheers Enno On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 02:22:03PM -0500, Job Snijders wrote: > Hi group, > > At RIPE 74 there will be an interesting presentation: > > https://www.ernw.de/download/TROOPERS_IPv6SecSummit_ERNW_IPv6_Structural_Deficits.pdf > (source: https://twitter.com/Enno_Insinuator/status/846797407174217728) > > Kind regards, > > Job > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- Enno Rey ERNW GmbH - Carl-Bosch-Str. 4 - 69115 Heidelberg - www.ernw.de Tel. +49 6221 480390 - Fax 6221 419008 - Cell +49 173 6745902 Handelsregister Mannheim: HRB 337135 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Enno Rey ======================================================= Blog: www.insinuator.net || Conference: www.troopers.de Twitter: @Enno_Insinuator ======================================================= From nobody Tue Mar 28 23:17:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A9C0B129677 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:17:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dF7qE_yoCldt for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D02B129666 for ; Tue, 28 Mar 2017 23:17:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050093.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.0.20/8.16.0.20) with SMTP id v2T68tCF010987; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:17:17 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=NmGMo9v2jD6hreYiSDmxNdADTNMHW0Po2XyNeR8AuSI=; b=QH10LOmb0O7zFAmA1BF04s++sMilONNP0TNq5RRf0S9L5zZqlG68ITTcqMR9mNdb2WN5 Epc3FKkQaQiXi/3/QFhT88lvBkUdJWzdz2EwpCFTIIjOM4Tt3OmqAqflChtyfaBlbPuW LVWqo7134NivqdFxxQ0Iw1uBl54OPX8WIjuKz1Wbi68jyz2yuvDQmaNxftoD5xn0kxuu MDYWftBISDZUW+Z8KexROdFvQ/UEH47ISqeisp2QlHOte8AvaQzGfyZ7/JUP90IEKuMC 8ifKK+vFiSQbjjOolPqsJwtoB1SMMXyTgZimk8F9+lvBtN8joHzT2zE+Ne6qsLAfXMPD AA== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint2 (a184-51-33-19.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [184.51.33.19] (may be forged)) by m0050093.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 29fsyu42bf-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:17:17 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v2T6D35Y001817; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 02:17:16 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.33]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 29fsx68br9-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 02:17:12 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb2.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.102) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 02:17:11 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 02:17:11 -0400 From: "Lubashev, Igor" To: Nick Hilliard CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation Thread-Index: AdKmvKIOboO9ECIoS5CCtdTGzUhRdAAdhDoAACcj/YAAAtlQ4AAJCMIAABJl7RA= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 06:17:11 +0000 Message-ID: <587c6005ecb449fd8c2002001019326d@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> <58DA3A49.9@foobar.org> <2c48e21735224145ab3037ad1467a2a8@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <58DA8A08.8060309@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: <58DA8A08.8060309@foobar.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.40.109] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-28_21:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703290054 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-28_21:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703290054 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 06:17:33 -0000 TmljayBIaWxsaWFyZCB3cm90ZToNCj4gSW4gbXkgY2FzZSwgaW50ZXItZG9tYWluIHJvdXRpbmcg d2FzIHRoZSBvbmx5IHVzZSBjYXNlIEkgZm91bmQgZm9yIHRoaXMgZmVhdHVyZSBpbiBlaXRoZXIg aXB2NCBvciBpcHY2LCBbLi4uXSBvdmVyIHR3ZW50eSBzb21ldGhpbmcgeWVhcnMuDQoNCklQdjYg 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X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:37:11 -0000 --001a11436188bde872054bd9a4fe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 27 Mar. 2017 5:09 pm, "Lubashev, Igor" wrote: I=E2=80=99ve uploaded a draft, suggesting we=E2=80=99ve been too tame with = IPv6 addresses, treating them to be just like IPv4 addresses, only longer. I don't think that is the case. Things have been done with IPv6 addresses that are impossible to do with IPv4 addresses. If hosts use either or both temporary addresses and stable opaque addresses, they become practically impossible to discover via unsolicited inbound address probing. Another example if leveraging IPv6's large address space is TARP - "Transient Addressing for Related Processes: Improved Firewalling by Using IPV6 and Multiple Addresses per Host' There are others mentioned in "Analysis of the 64-bit Boundary in IPv6 Addressing" https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7421 I think grouping hosts together according to function would be a mistake of they're accessible over the Internet. If humans are choosing the ranges, they're likely not to be random and well distributed within the /64. Secondly, if you discover one host in the group, it is easy to discover the others, because they're adjacent or near adjacent. Regards, Mark. I=E2=80=99d like to get some feedback from the WG as to the content as well= as the applicability of the subject in the WG. The link is here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask/. To save a click, I am including the abstract. Many thanks in advance for frank feedback, - Igor ------------------------------------ Abstract With significantly longer IPv6 address prefixes assigned to ISPs, operators sometimes find opportunities to assign special meaning to lower-order bit patterns. Often, these bit patterns cannot be expressed as an address prefix. This RFC introduces IPv6 Address/Mask notation that allows one to express address groupings beyond =E2=80=9Call addresses that share a single prefix= =E2=80=9D. The notation is similar to the IPv4 Address/Mask notation in its expressiveness, but its syntax is derived from the traditional Address/Prefix-length notation. The traditional Address/Prefix-length notation is a special case of the Address/Mask notation. For example, using this notation, both 2001:db8::/32 and 2001:db8::/ffff:ffff:: have the same meaning. However, the following requires the new notation: 2001:db8::1234/ffff:ffff::ffff or, equivalently, 2001:db8::1234/32+::ffff. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --001a11436188bde872054bd9a4fe Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On 27 Mar. 2017 5:09 pm, "Lubashev, Igor" <ilubashe@akamai.com&g= t; wrote:

I=E2=80=99ve uploaded a draft, suggesting we=E2=80= =99ve been too tame with IPv6 addresses, treating them to be just like IPv4= addresses, only longer.


I don't think that is the cas= e.

Things have been done= with IPv6 addresses that are impossible to do with IPv4 addresses.

If hosts use either or both tem= porary addresses and stable opaque addresses, they become practically impos= sible to discover via unsolicited inbound address probing.

Another example if leveraging IPv6's= large address space is TARP - "Transient Addressing for Related Proce= sses: Improved Firewalling
by Using IPV6 and Multipl= e Addresses per Host'

There are others mentioned in

"Analysis of the 64-bit= Boundary in IPv6 Addressing"




Reg= ards,
Mark.


<= /u>

=C2=A0

I=E2=80=99d like to get some feedback from the WG as= to the content as well as the applicability of the subject in the WG.=C2= =A0 The link is here: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lubashev-ipv= 6-addr-mask/.

To save a click, I am including the abstract.=

=C2=A0

Many thanks in advance for frank feedback,=

=C2=A0

= -=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Igor

=C2=A0

------------------------------------<= /u>

Abstract

=C2=A0

With significantly longer IPv6 address prefixes assi= gned to ISPs, operators sometimes find opportunities to assign special mean= ing to lower-order bit patterns. Often, these bit patterns cannot be expres= sed as an address prefix.

=C2=A0

This RFC introduces IPv6 Address/Mask notation that = allows one to express address groupings beyond =E2=80=9Call addresses that = share a single prefix=E2=80=9D. The notation is similar to the IPv4 Address= /Mask notation in its expressiveness, but its syntax is derived from the traditional Address/Prefix-length notation. The tradit= ional Address/Prefix-length notation is a special case of the Address/Mask = notation.

=C2=A0

For example, using this notation, both 2001:db8::/32= and 2001:db8::/ffff:ffff:: have the same meaning. However, the following r= equires the new notation: 2001:db8::1234/ffff:ffff::ffff or, equivalently, = 2001:db8::1234/32+::ffff.


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VI1PR0701MB3008; 6:T8SBYjYqIGuvhdglZgd7w4NHTRcUi2kkhTR/P/aHpPjSp3Jyz5ghQkUmijKkTmf5P6izOOb5Lk6c1XGLLvdcNyPuUcFhYcGWp5wrOLgLgwTov5GlM5rFejSXttNwfGLjz5Jj0UrLhHoZbHs0R03lnLT+e6BC0haWQjPyWsBrr1zX45dyH1Ndrw14+4ZaMHyVI/R86+K1CINmh7Jaa9jg7JOJOtAXGJ2FqBpg3KfRx8ZYHVEhmJfz21uzimFe82C0ll/g16iVR4gRdXAshpfTC+vKEMCbcNNElsYbE1GlT1MdDge4aiKytmVvSEsm8A7GgggvY+KWdrFa4WbpO1QUDil9tHtvtImtuwPUTNd+Oa4uS0ULctE4U8GxwfnAR1Q7r+BlNVf4/1yVXrhXPXwjxw==; 5:02Gk7V7g3OgCDO3kHz6+r3eeS+c8bQ5J8+pfIE3OeXF6aLDT7yMDJbXNqfyMg4jQmK9KiIUYIFLKhDnd8iH4PMjvkTilSdMPe7lPjOfGYYISrSYW2F1RoFmlqWH7ybI+qAiF1N6CQf2u2G2Flvex4g==; 24:GH0TMWOwh9XDPc22A22lbIAH0q3hey75s5sygQWpZA9ujHE0bEq7X9bOpfEY1e7VoW7ZDIC49yTAXaRua3UgYrZOExNavLnzM5y7hqW98oU= SpamDiagnosticOutput: 1:99 SpamDiagnosticMetadata: NSPM X-Microsoft-Exchange-Diagnostics: 1; VI1PR0701MB3008; 7:KwBViC4g0aYyIQXQNK/PE3e8Y3sw9hXzDMY+ZLgZxVwQ37xSYeLH6mA/C+Gw6T25WkqLDjhJnLIW4PIsI+jqG6Q7wV/Nl7fxtikTi4qzgOZ8K4ulR9qEO5r6hiOnqn9ti1dB92LyGtrgk3Fej3DGJpYfMiU1ILCtRm6AK0NB9rdGZ6PkgazqKbJjIbwEBvn07chBjvdevGbu6HpyfMNZHKSMS5DhGy55ReqUzz8CWmGJ2Ina2R2e9JiZGYzs4QlZufWw4DE1omDz7rkHGY8H8aQMSvviPFtnp1LyzXrRA4005zwK0Owb8lIBz3QyaJuLoVFnQZcWrnZbJMMJwGaBGA== X-OriginatorOrg: btconnect.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 29 Mar 2017 08:57:07.4962 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: VI1PR0701MB3008 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:57:14 -0000 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lubashev, Igor" Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 7:17 AM > Nick Hilliard wrote: > > In my case, inter-domain routing was the only use case I found for this feature in either ipv4 or ipv6, [...] over twenty something years. > > IPv6 is truly a different beast than IPv4. We've had "World IPv6 Launch Day" less than five years ago, and the only (barely) measurable IPv6 traffic we observed in our "war room" then was generated by some lonely piece of malware. We have come a very long way over the last five years. There is still a lot to do (some large ISPs still do not support IPv6!). Most people are just beginning to figure out how to operate IPv6 effectively (and some people have not even started to do so, yet). > > We have qos, site-local routing, acl use cases already. I bet others soon will be finding use cases associated with setting up prefix-agnostic policies for multihoming or mobility in the absence of NAPT devices (RFC7157), especially when they are not interested in deploying NPTv6 devices (RFC6296). > > But even with NPTv6 devices, there is still a problem of creating policies for "orthogonal subnetting". For example, you want to subnet your /56 address space by department (2 octets) as well as by security domain (internal-wired, internal-wifi, guest-wired, guest-wifi, dmz, etc). The routing policies and firewall policies would need to group addresses by different sets of bits. Which is why what you are proposing is a bad idea. You are taking an identifier, deciding that not all of it is needed and that that part of the identifier can then be used to encode semantics. I have seen many organisations do something similar with a variety of identifiers over the years and come to regret it. All those different atttributes that a device with a given identifier may have, and which may - will! - change over the years belong in a system designed to cope with such data, commonly a relational database nowadays, with the identifier doing what an identifier needs to do, identify; and be usable for whatever usage the identifier has, be it reading on a screen, typing into a device, handwriting on a form, acting as a key into a database etc. This I-D is a very bad idea. Tom Petch > > the issue that this WG needs to consider is whether the benefits of this change are worth the extra parser complication that would need to be built into all text-based ipv6 address consumer code > > This is an informational draft, not a standards track draft. The goal is not to force *all* ipv6 parsers to support it. Instead, the goal is to provide notation guidance for systems that *want* to implement mask-based address groupings. I.e. we do not want every vendor to invent their own notation for the same thing. > > - Igor > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Nick Hilliard [mailto:nick@foobar.org] > Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 11:07 AM > To: Lubashev, Igor > Cc: v6ops@ietf.org > Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation > > Lubashev, Igor wrote: > > Inter-domain routing is not likely to be a use case for where I see > > address/mask notation extensively used. Most use cases are likely to > > be site-specific. We've used it with internal firewalls, qos > > policies, internal routing. > > sorry, I meant company-specific rather than site-specific. I.e. your justification is that the draft is of interest to some companies who create semantic classifications based on bitwise netmasking. In my case, inter-domain routing was the only use case I found for this feature in either ipv4 or ipv6, over tens of companies ranging from ixp to enterprise to mid-size SP (access, transit, content, etc), and using a very wide range of equipment and features over twenty something years. > Out of all that, categorisation of addresses using non-contiguous bit selection was mildly useful on a sole occasion, but not useful enough to want to keep the configuration in production. Other people will have different experiences on how often they had real operational use-cases for this feature. > > I've no doubt that Akamai could find plenty of use cases for this feature, nor do I question Akamai's size. But the issue that this WG needs to consider is whether the benefits of this change are worth the extra parser complication that would need to be built into all text-based ipv6 address consumer code and lack of backwards compatibility for the proposed syntax; personally, I don't think the arguments are compelling. > > Nick > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Wed Mar 29 04:12:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F576129407 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 04:12:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2FPoGanRWMn4 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 04:11:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 496FA126B6E for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 04:11:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v2TBBjaY022303 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:11:46 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local Message-ID: <58DB9671.4000700@foobar.org> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:11:45 +0100 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.12 (Macintosh/20170323) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "t.petch" CC: "Lubashev, Igor" , v6ops@ietf.org References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> <58DA3A49.9@foobar.org> <2c48e21735224145ab3037ad1467a2a8@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <58DA8A08.8060309@foobar.org> <587c6005ecb449fd8c2002001019326d@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <021101d2a86a$324ef200$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> In-Reply-To: <021101d2a86a$324ef200$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:12:01 -0000 t.petch wrote: > Which is why what you are proposing is a bad idea. > > You are taking an identifier, deciding that not all of it is needed and > that that part of the identifier can then be used to encode semantics. no he's not. He's simply using this as an example and saying that this this draft will make it easier for people to do this sort of thing if they want to. That's ok as a justification and there is no problem with people doing whatever they want to do on their networks. Your network, your rules. > This I-D is a very bad idea. No, it's an idea that would have been mostly neutral 20-odd years ago, assuming different syntax, but is no longer feasible because we have 20 years of parser code out there that expects "/" to sit between the network id and the mask length. Nick From nobody Wed Mar 29 07:46:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86FF8127449; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:46:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BhGXwB7iKCu9; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 83F26126DD9; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:46:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id D043FB8163B; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:46:10 -0700 (PDT) To: markzzzsmith@gmail.com, lorenzo@google.com, vint@google.com, cheshire@apple.com, dschinazi@apple.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Cc: joelja@bogus.com, iesg@ietf.org, v6ops@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20170329144610.D043FB8163B@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:46:10 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] [Errata Held for Document Update] RFC7934 (4806) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:46:23 -0000 The following errata report has been held for document update for RFC7934, "Host Address Availability Recommendations". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7934&eid=4806 -------------------------------------- Status: Held for Document Update Type: Technical Reported by: Mark Smith Date Reported: 2016-09-20 Held by: Joel Jaeggli (IESG) Section: 3 Original Text ------------- 3. Benefits of Providing Multiple Addresses Today, there are many host functions that require more than one IP address to be available to the host, including: o Privacy addressing to prevent tracking by off-network hosts [RFC4941]. ... Corrected Text -------------- 3. Benefits of Providing Multiple Addresses Today, there are many host functions that require more than one IP address to be available to the host, including: o Privacy addressing to prevent tracking by off-network hosts [RFC4941]. ... o Other potential use cases such as those described in [RFC1681]. Notes ----- Somewhat trivial errata, a reference to RFC1681, " On Many Addresses per Host", would be good to credit Steve's early thoughts, and those which probably in part lead to [TARP]. No urgency to update, a note to include it if this RFC is ever updated. -------------------------------------- RFC7934 (draft-ietf-v6ops-host-addr-availability-07) -------------------------------------- Title : Host Address Availability Recommendations Publication Date : July 2016 Author(s) : L. Colitti, V. Cerf, S. Cheshire, D. Schinazi Category : BEST CURRENT PRACTICE Source : IPv6 Operations Area : Operations and Management Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Wed Mar 29 07:57:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AC39129435; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:57:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0-GVvO-lzSeU; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E73DD127599; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:57:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 5F4A6B816AA; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:56:58 -0700 (PDT) To: bortzmeyer+ietf@nic.fr, fgont@si6networks.com, furry@google.com, tim.chown@jisc.ac.uk, liushucheng@huawei.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Cc: joelja@bogus.com, iesg@ietf.org, v6ops@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20170329145658.5F4A6B816AA@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 07:56:58 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] [Errata Verified] RFC7872 (4729) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 14:57:11 -0000 The following errata report has been verified for RFC7872, "Observations on the Dropping of Packets with IPv6 Extension Headers in the Real World". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=7872&eid=4729 -------------------------------------- Status: Verified Type: Editorial Reported by: Stéphane Bortzmeyer Date Reported: 2016-07-05 Verified by: Joel Jaeggli (IESG) Section: A.1 Original Text ------------- The domain names corresponding to the WIPv6LD dataset is available at . Corrected Text -------------- given that this was a set of names used for a one time test it would not be expected to change. a stable reference to it would be: "https://web.archive.org/web/20150313063829/ http://www.si6networks.com/datasets/wipv6day-domains.txt" note line truncated due to 72 char limit Notes ----- % wget http://www.si6networks.com/datasets/wipv6day-domains.txt --2016-07-05 11:56:27-- http://www.si6networks.com/datasets/wipv6day-domains.txt Resolving www.si6networks.com (www.si6networks.com)... 2001:67c:27e4::14, 91.239.96.14 Connecting to www.si6networks.com (www.si6networks.com)|2001:67c:27e4::14|:80... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently Location: https://www.si6networks.com/datasets/wipv6day-domains.txt [following] --2016-07-05 11:56:28-- https://www.si6networks.com/datasets/wipv6day-domains.txt Connecting to www.si6networks.com (www.si6networks.com)|2001:67c:27e4::14|:443... connected. HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found 2016-07-05 11:56:28 ERROR 404: Not Found. -------------------------------------- RFC7872 (draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-in-real-world-02) -------------------------------------- Title : Observations on the Dropping of Packets with IPv6 Extension Headers in the Real World Publication Date : June 2016 Author(s) : F. Gont, J. Linkova, T. Chown, W. Liu Category : INFORMATIONAL Source : IPv6 Operations Area : Operations and Management Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Wed Mar 29 08:10:46 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B791127599; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:10:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.4 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.4 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FORGED_FROMDOMAIN=0.197, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HEADER_FROM_DIFFERENT_DOMAINS=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YoFT7x4HewIb; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x233.google.com (mail-vk0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EDD8129411; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:10:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x233.google.com with SMTP id z204so21254211vkd.1; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:10:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id :subject:to:cc; bh=DMpmwgrZtaQmS3f1DeHvhYTvn8CQsaurWcGjD5n+qgo=; b=DhEAsbANejm4uW0B0Ew/+ZfNSTyLzDsRyjKkDN9k5Hqyo9lMv69oigJ6Nhq415cLAj o50CcqJ/gmDBJogu6a0tDSV8GTZQIHErUZ+hgdGmpesNhubKy1/Xmre1KlW2m71OvtPS Kcsl530000931rhKGUxRbqBMMLPzkqjNH+eTz5nMxPGrXlWXLppFHBdxeL/MrAfa2d3q HgIx3oICon9M53Ly+9VLOG/k9yNHBKr49nQKTjkgnU9N7KuNLmsEk4Cx1cpUkWqjL1n0 5P9n6gnZGUri7KzW6eV4HGIJO9l7WlQ4QBwCzUrouaosomb8x81a+3WqX7qdTYWAGSrc 80rw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=DMpmwgrZtaQmS3f1DeHvhYTvn8CQsaurWcGjD5n+qgo=; b=fBWAvrGHKLV1xC7KuMhMqzGwVLE3D5Gw0ZmEU5VDp+1mHkBgkAWZmdvB7f1ed9AAd7 EC3GAS3081qOJ/cP2FZy3u57AvRzsLWspO/eW7ZOFQoqsfcICxlsUm/hebK/eF2vv515 JYXqNcpJEDTb7y87PHr/04Q3hapkzn06pqIs59YQBEBvKsGiit7+0qd2KGXxvxpyaIxU 5cEKTopoUMldF1IrIfBvLfE517/bsPVX66DSkWe+i0IMiLsLb6zaMD3InUycCCu6p20x kSXND4btJEy78HYmUnbnUpqttMnHLg2uGFWAphFyyKINpUwShKO1ESXllKwX14O2X897 TFBg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2oEKbexxrePHN+hTPs5wbJrndZEU5BSrbAcfdQBXfy7evFVr277M+OCcCC+DVs/KeritI01TgLiI2OJw== X-Received: by 10.31.211.70 with SMTP id k67mr420064vkg.67.1490800240292; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:10:40 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Sender: fgont.mobile@gmail.com Received: by 10.103.85.134 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:10:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.103.85.134 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:10:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170329145658.5F4A6B816AA@rfc-editor.org> References: <20170329145658.5F4A6B816AA@rfc-editor.org> From: Fernando Gont Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:10:39 -0300 X-Google-Sender-Auth: EWtZKAN9VQsOAJqQ0rxVcRakeik Message-ID: To: RFC Editor Cc: iesg@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations , furry@google.com, joelja@bogus.com, bortzmeyer+ietf@nic.fr, tim.chown@jisc.ac.uk, liushucheng@huawei.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c07b5fac0f82e054bdffa49 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] [Errata Verified] RFC7872 (4729) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:10:44 -0000 --94eb2c07b5fac0f82e054bdffa49 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Folks, This one just slipped. I can get the URL fixed today. Should I? Thanks, Fernando El 29/3/2017 16:57, "RFC Errata System" escribi=C3=B3: > The following errata report has been verified for RFC7872, > "Observations on the Dropping of Packets with IPv6 Extension Headers in > the Real World". > > -------------------------------------- > You may review the report below and at: > http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D7872&eid=3D4729 > > -------------------------------------- > Status: Verified > Type: Editorial > > Reported by: St=C3=A9phane Bortzmeyer > Date Reported: 2016-07-05 > Verified by: Joel Jaeggli (IESG) > > Section: A.1 > > Original Text > ------------- > The domain names corresponding to the WIPv6LD dataset is > available at > . > > Corrected Text > -------------- > given that this was a set of names used for a one time test > it would not be expected to change. > > a stable reference to it would be: > > "https://web.archive.org/web/20150313063829/ > http://www.si6networks.com/datasets/wipv6day-domains.txt" > > note line truncated due to 72 char limit > > Notes > ----- > % wget http://www.si6networks.com/datasets/wipv6day-domains.txt > --2016-07-05 11:56:27-- http://www.si6networks.com/ > datasets/wipv6day-domains.txt > Resolving www.si6networks.com (www.si6networks.com)... 2001:67c:27e4::14, > 91.239.96.14 > Connecting to www.si6networks.com (www.si6networks.com)|2001:67c:27e4::14= |:80... > connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently > Location: https://www.si6networks.com/datasets/wipv6day-domains.txt > [following] > --2016-07-05 11:56:28-- https://www.si6networks.com/ > datasets/wipv6day-domains.txt > Connecting to www.si6networks.com (www.si6networks.com)|2001:67c:27e4::14= |:443... > connected. > HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found > 2016-07-05 11:56:28 ERROR 404: Not Found. > > -------------------------------------- > RFC7872 (draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-in-real-world-02) > -------------------------------------- > Title : Observations on the Dropping of Packets with IPv6 > Extension Headers in the Real World > Publication Date : June 2016 > Author(s) : F. Gont, J. Linkova, T. Chown, W. Liu > Category : INFORMATIONAL > Source : IPv6 Operations > Area : Operations and Management > Stream : IETF > Verifying Party : IESG > --94eb2c07b5fac0f82e054bdffa49 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Folks,

This = one just slipped. I can get the URL fixed today. Should I?

Thanks,
Fernando<= /div>




=
El 29/3/2017 16:57, "RFC Errata System&= quot; <rfc-editor@rfc-edito= r.org> escribi=C3=B3:
The following errata report has been verified for RFC7872,
"Observations on the Dropping of Packets with IPv6 Extension Headers i= n the Real World".

--------------------------------------
You may review the report below and at:
http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D7872&eid=3D4729

--------------------------------------
Status: Verified
Type: Editorial

Reported by: St=C3=A9phane Bortzmeyer <bortzmeyer+ietf@nic.fr>
Date Reported: 2016-07-05
Verified by: Joel Jaeggli (IESG)

Section: A.1

Original Text
-------------
The domain names corresponding to the WIPv6LD dataset is
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 available at
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <http://www.si6netwo= rks.com/datasets/wipv6day-domains.txt>.

Corrected Text
--------------
given that this was a set of names used for a one time test
it would not be expected to change.

a stable reference to it would be:

"https://web.archive.org/web/20150313063829/
http://www.si6networks.com/datasets/wip= v6day-domains.txt"

note line truncated due to 72 char limit

Notes
-----
% wget http://www.si6networks.com/datas= ets/wipv6day-domains.txt
--2016-07-05 11:56:27--=C2=A0 http://www.si6= networks.com/datasets/wipv6day-domains.txt
Resolving www.si6networks.com (www.si6networks.com)... 2001:67c:= 27e4::14, 91.239.96.14
Connecting to www.si6networks.com (www.si6networks.com)|2001:67c:27e4::14|:80... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 301 Moved Permanently
Location: https://www.si6networks.com/= datasets/wipv6day-domains.txt [following]
--2016-07-05 11:56:28--=C2=A0 https://www.s= i6networks.com/datasets/wipv6day-domains.txt
Connecting to www.si6networks.com (www.si6networks.com)|2001:67c:27e4::14|:443... connected.
HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 404 Not Found
2016-07-05 11:56:28 ERROR 404: Not Found.

--------------------------------------
RFC7872 (draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6-ehs-in-real-world-02)
--------------------------------------
Title=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: Observations = on the Dropping of Packets with IPv6 Extension Headers in the Real World Publication Date=C2=A0 =C2=A0 : June 2016
Author(s)=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: F. Gont, J. Linkova, T.= Chown, W. Liu
Category=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : INFORMATIONAL
Source=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : IPv6 Operations Area=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : Operations an= d Management
Stream=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 : IETF
Verifying Party=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0: IESG
--94eb2c07b5fac0f82e054bdffa49-- From nobody Wed Mar 29 08:27:28 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2843B1296CA for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:27:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QKZbTlo_k8wR for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6F4D3129613 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:27:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.0.20/8.16.0.20) with SMTP id v2TFLZ4l013928; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:27:09 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=n9qiikgEUDqOAUj8eJ/ZqT91EcRBH6lAtK6Itp9/p+8=; b=fWXdSa35L6nptC20cAdtt7XeaQ7946dFfBWZVh+M3YqtTsrpyBf3Slql7Y6HPnvzlPMk qMpouAQ/U8l4w5RLG/M9vFbxNa3t5ww2huErVTOd6oCaulwVouVBAF8/8e5Sej53v8q1 6e6xzxKcVgTPdUyMLvqPrxXB9EJm0HxFE0w7DyT+uvn9oOg828LqAlY2sS3R153J744x Czaro+/Sz9bwhafK9zZsNSdBFnz6kAJ2QyfJNQCdB2oTCp9OmOLlP6NfZbwKVkQW+GGM B3xYhLUyq+rbATzcPWcUkZnaStca3tb02mX/YLtT/Z/Uo1Kev4wq0o5bZwWKg6Vs7l8S Bg== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint2 (a184-51-33-19.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [184.51.33.19] (may be forged)) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 29fsyu6fm7-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:27:09 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v2TFM3O0007270; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:27:08 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.33]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 29fsx68kb2-2 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:27:08 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb4.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.104) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:27:07 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:27:07 -0400 From: "Lubashev, Igor" To: Nick Hilliard , "t.petch" , "Alexandre Petrescu" CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation Thread-Index: AdKmvKIOboO9ECIoS5CCtdTGzUhRdAAdhDoAACcj/YAAAtlQ4AAJCMIAABJl7RAACIRhwgANFLuAAAFW1nA= Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:27:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> <58DA3A49.9@foobar.org> <2c48e21735224145ab3037ad1467a2a8@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <58DA8A08.8060309@foobar.org> <587c6005ecb449fd8c2002001019326d@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <021101d2a86a$324ef200$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <58DB9671.4000700@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: <58DB9671.4000700@foobar.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.40.188] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-29_11:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703290131 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-29_11:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703290131 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:27:27 -0000 t.petch wrote: >> you want to subnet your /56 address space by department (2 octets) as we= ll as by security domain >> (internal-wired, internal-wifi, guest-wired, guest-wifi, dmz, etc). The= routing policies and firewall >> policies would need to group addresses by different sets of bits. > All those different atttributes that a device with a given identifier may= have, and which may - will! - > change over the years belong in a system designed to cope with such data,= commonly a relational database The job of any address registry is to embed "attributes" into addresses. So= me registries are Internet-wide (assign prefixes to organizations). Some ar= e run by ISPs (carve out their space to customers). Some are site-local (as= in my example). It would be awesome if Hardware (or Software) devices could take relational= databases and allow one to specify routing, firewall, and other rules usin= g SQL. Regretfully, I have not seen such devices, and I am not optimistic = I will see them soon. In short, these attributes (prefixes, etc) are there because they are funct= ional, not decorative. Nick Hilliard wrote: > have 20 years of parser code out there that expects "/" to sit between th= e network id and the mask length. If I understand correctly, the concern is that the proposed notation (2001:= db8::1/32+::f) could be misinterpreted by parsers as just 2001:db8::1/32 if= they stop parsing prefixlen at a non-numeric. This is good feedback. Ale= xandre Petrescu suggested using double slashes. That seems to have a nice = property that non-supporting parsers will properly fail to parse. Would tha= t address this concern?=20 From nobody Wed Mar 29 08:56:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A362129851 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:55:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nNs2KXOkMx3I for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:55:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 149AA1294CD for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 08:55:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v2TFti8k057025 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:55:45 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local Message-ID: <58DBD8FF.6030808@foobar.org> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:55:43 +0100 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.12 (Macintosh/20170323) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "Lubashev, Igor" CC: "t.petch" , Alexandre Petrescu , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> <58DA3A49.9@foobar.org> <2c48e21735224145ab3037ad1467a2a8@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <58DA8A08.8060309@foobar.org> <587c6005ecb449fd8c2002001019326d@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <021101d2a86a$324ef200$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <58DB9671.4000700@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:56:00 -0000 Lubashev, Igor wrote: > If I understand correctly, the concern is that the proposed notation > (2001:db8::1/32+::f) could be misinterpreted by parsers as just > 2001:db8::1/32 if they stop parsing prefixlen at a non-numeric. This > is good feedback. Alexandre Petrescu suggested using double slashes. > That seems to have a nice property that non-supporting parsers will > properly fail to parse. Would that address this concern? I'd prefer to see a completely different token used. Using two '/' chars will lead to typos. Regarding the proposal in general, I still maintain that the added benefit of this proposal is tiny in the general case and the added complication is substantial. We know that the added benefit is small because ipv6 has been around for over 20 years and it hasn't been an substantial issue so far. Nick From nobody Wed Mar 29 09:18:49 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id ADD8012778E for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 09:18:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cFYHFvUANFZW for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 09:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BFBC71272E1 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 09:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050102.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.0.20/8.16.0.20) with SMTP id v2TGH7Be001784; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:18:35 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=KtT13p25mZVmIeC2j4jnbHSuxlc5b+79ltaCkga39VY=; b=CV1hq0263+N73jL47S0AEoIAG0juhOeIkmcMmfrnAMncZs/2x9eB87s4ul+jcxb2Atja A8vuRT3ozNEZlARghxE3Ay7nZ1lnw2QKgGmucysldPPsrvgdLEiAPX3QlOlIkSfjErFu vWdQxFHyeheeBwEK81uacoRRpzjo8Am44fC7LzjEiD29Ff67qTcYl0B5mYuImywyD43q dYWrtu2hWCYuz/xUw2htq90KEZD10fjs9iBzcYMnIEC0ozKJnpiwjuo6zgi7ZJW9GtUL OPt+diMCMW/Tns1eopeg/hsGgJQwQODYhbjfagLmZXfYwZkhWp5+wf+2+NPtp2T8qvaj 2A== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint4 ([96.6.114.87]) by m0050102.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 29fsuyxwtq-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:18:35 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v2TGGSc1001224; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:18:34 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.30]) by prod-mail-ppoint4.akamai.com with ESMTP id 29fsuu9nt6-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:18:34 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb3.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.103) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:18:33 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:18:33 -0400 From: "Lubashev, Igor" To: Nick Hilliard CC: "t.petch" , Alexandre Petrescu , "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation Thread-Index: AdKmvKIOboO9ECIoS5CCtdTGzUhRdAAdhDoAACcj/YAAAtlQ4AAJCMIAABJl7RAACIRhwgANFLuAAAFW1nAACJQHgAAH92pg Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:18:32 +0000 Message-ID: <64f85f81d7874cc991fcee5024fc5556@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> <58DA3A49.9@foobar.org> <2c48e21735224145ab3037ad1467a2a8@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <58DA8A08.8060309@foobar.org> <587c6005ecb449fd8c2002001019326d@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <021101d2a86a$324ef200$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <58DB9671.4000700@foobar.org> <58DBD8FF.6030808@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: <58DBD8FF.6030808@foobar.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.40.188] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-29_12:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703290138 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-29_12:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703290138 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:18:49 -0000 Nick Hilliard wrote: > I'd prefer to see a completely different token used. Using two '/' chars = will lead to typos. I welcome suggestions (hopefully this will not bike shed this thread). > We know that the added benefit is small because ipv6 has been around > for over 20 years and it hasn't been an substantial issue so far It looks like we have a different perspective on the relevant timeframe to = look for operational issues. The IPv6 RFC has been around for over 20 years= . Most networks actually started to use IPv6 for real a few years ago (and = some have not started yet). - Igor From nobody Wed Mar 29 10:21:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 86421129485; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:21:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.202 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.202 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QGdclvt1s8xu; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:21:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from rfc-editor.org (rfc-editor.org [4.31.198.49]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 23E81128C84; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by rfc-editor.org (Postfix, from userid 30) id 7A52BB8015A; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:21:14 -0700 (PDT) To: stefan.winter@restena.lu, dwing-ietf@fuggles.com, ayourtch@cisco.com X-PHP-Originating-Script: 30:errata_mail_lib.php From: RFC Errata System Cc: joelja@bogus.com, iesg@ietf.org, v6ops@ietf.org, rfc-editor@rfc-editor.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Message-Id: <20170329172114.7A52BB8015A@rfc-editor.org> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 10:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] [Errata Verified] RFC6555 (4728) X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:21:29 -0000 The following errata report has been verified for RFC6555, "Happy Eyeballs: Success with Dual-Stack Hosts". -------------------------------------- You may review the report below and at: http://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=6555&eid=4728 -------------------------------------- Status: Verified Type: Editorial Reported by: Stefan Winter Date Reported: 2016-07-05 Verified by: Joel Jaeggli (IESG) Section: 1 Original Text ------------- However, this does not scale well (to the number of DNS servers worldwide or the number of content providers worldwide) and does react to intermittent network path outages. Corrected Text -------------- However, this does not scale well (to the number of DNS servers worldwide or the number of content providers worldwide) and does not react to intermittent network path outages. Notes ----- The introduction makes a case against a whitelist of DNS servers because it does not scale well and is not flexible. DNS server whitelists indeed to not react to intermittent network outages, so the only logical sentence to form is to state that they do not. The "not" has been omitted, reversing the logical meaning of the sentence. -------------------------------------- RFC6555 (draft-ietf-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-07) -------------------------------------- Title : Happy Eyeballs: Success with Dual-Stack Hosts Publication Date : April 2012 Author(s) : D. Wing, A. Yourtchenko Category : PROPOSED STANDARD Source : IPv6 Operations Area : Operations and Management Stream : IETF Verifying Party : IESG From nobody Wed Mar 29 11:39:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1BD5A1270AC for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:39:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.321 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.321 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jisc.ac.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id QLv24FmR9hWW for ; 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Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:39:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? (t2001067c0370012828ccdc4c97036781.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 188sm66961itm.3.2017.03.29.11.39.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:39:56 -0700 (PDT) To: IPv6 Operations From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Cc: draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs@ietf.org Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:40:02 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:40:02 -0000 > SLAAC ([RFC7217] and [RFC7527]): The primary reference for SLAAC is RFC4862. Also, I'd like to plug RFC8028. This prepares the way for SADR and effective multiprefix multihoming, so it would be good to cover it. The impact is small: a router SHOULD be able to send a PIO with L and A both set to zero, as explained in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8028#section-2.1 Brian From nobody Wed Mar 29 11:42:39 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C91101270AC for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:42:37 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.321 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.321 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jisc.ac.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id j0x-o-mdtCPA for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AM3PR07MB1138; H:AM3PR07MB1140.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jisc.ac.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 29 Mar 2017 18:42:29.8062 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 48f9394d-8a14-4d27-82a6-f35f12361205 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM3PR07MB1138 X-MC-Unique: xileP9ACOfuqWcBHbbq2Xg-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Small nit on draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-02 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:42:38 -0000 SGksDQoNClJGQzExOTEgc3VwcG9ydCBjYW4gYmUgcmVtb3ZlZCBhcyBJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXTigJlz IElQdjQtc3BlY2lmaWM7IGp1c3QgbGVhdmUgUkZDMTk4MSBpbi4NCg0KVGltIA0KDQoNCg0K From nobody Wed Mar 29 11:52:04 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 57ED1129541 for ; 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(t2001067c0370012828ccdc4c97036781.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id t7sm77855ioe.22.2017.03.29.11.51.59 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 11:52:00 -0700 (PDT) To: Tim Chown , "v6ops@ietf.org" References: From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:52:04 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-02 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:52:03 -0000 I agree with Tim on all points. Brian On 30/03/2017 07:39, Tim Chown wrote: > Hi, >=20 > Email as promised following up mic comments. >=20 > Overall, a very nicely written document. The intro sections are particu= larly good to read. >=20 > I suggest adding sections in the draft on: > a) MLDv2 - personally I=E2=80=99d like to see a MUST for MLDv2 support > b) RFC8106 support - make RDNSS option support in RAs a MUST >=20 > And also review the wording on SLAAC in Section 3.3. > a) Change SLAAC being enabled by default from a SHOULD to a MUST > b) Probably good to distinguish SLAAC for LLs and SLAAC for globals; RF= C6434 says routers MUST be able to generate LL addresses; the draft curre= ntly only says SHOULD; I=E2=80=99d make that a MUST. > c) RFC4862 says DAD is a MUST, in the draft it=E2=80=99s currently only= a SHOULD; is there a reason for it not to be a MUST? >=20 > The only significant =E2=80=9Cclash=E2=80=9D with RFC6434-bis (which is= in 6net tomorrow) is the section 3 text; the rest syncs pretty well as i= t is, which is good news. >=20 > Tim=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 From nobody Wed Mar 29 13:23:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 879C212957C for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:23:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.448 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.448 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pzh9fndJNxtI for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x235.google.com (mail-yw0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6ABE3127BA3 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:23:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x235.google.com with SMTP id v76so18945291ywg.0 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:23:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=v/4kUFbfkRdGQU1vGH6h/5rvJBOUfoQyA6FpjJ4warI=; b=CgfPQFFbU5C/Gzw4xPpCKMG4t2k/dVnD4WRjYMqTk+bsamGygpsVcaYqfqIBYhiPww cCe6JkOJFENkUOB1VPcWO/TEGbDZ4QTlGQN8vGzfJ2l6t8AvmXM3XPZJATakIM2mJetx SPOnzW3DJdEG7FY3Gnll3g+F4o4R2yhgoYsx9reaJZMkkwF2rL1jb4pSUEgdyyNcV3Bk axwFR7RkqifhAO6haAteaYIrucxevxo/P1aM7scmbLMlJCUFByIBYYs+ZVkE52rwS4qX 1wobbvfuO7UeQaLZcrocmBsoWYs8BXdENeGAfHjy0QgoKzUlKWJg5Lus0FPn6jRt2U5T I3lA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=v/4kUFbfkRdGQU1vGH6h/5rvJBOUfoQyA6FpjJ4warI=; b=lBIzKWao/fVcXTILo40L78lEUbJaX25B0o7xPDAj36CljfRds+sJ4/yIWMCNmegbzX GgDO7ZbLjD+FtAiRjo/67PTd4EixtXYhgWM8xvqME/5cGv7mhxQ7tFkDSHxCOf8qT9Ys bVS/s9a3574OWkmxeA34v8EgZzp8bS6LyujiX8HrEbVztM69mvw5+U7JT5ZtaNXN8dle rXi1OnEql7y1iCLlKnePIHL0BfswQc8LzJF5u0Vq682eSKwaGOq42ofF9Hb0vv4akJ4Z IZGXaW9Y5NT3LTzEDNIw3fjM/8WecJ/Wim7Nc/tD5IddJBi7sw5z0JTdYi83ZoqK+ogw N1fA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1HvVOlJuvCBMkhmXXbfb6fIPJaxEDETbHXKgYXKcPL1SWNHzcFZodHy7AYVztHp5i0FABrbRAcUw7ewA== X-Received: by 10.37.171.162 with SMTP id v31mr2375631ybi.73.1490818979525; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:22:59 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.129.163.133 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:22:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Ca By Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:22:59 -0700 Message-ID: To: IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c18881ab2fb3b054be457ad Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:23:02 -0000 --94eb2c18881ab2fb3b054be457ad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Just a comment following up on Jordi's Mic comment Jordi said there was an issue with HE hiding IPv6 issues. David's response was something along the lines of "deploy ipv6-only". I did not really understand this. When folks deploy ipv6-only, they find they are all alone with a broken ipv6 scenarios that work on all their competitors IPv4-only networks and HE dual-stack networks. Also, friendly reminder that Dan Wing catalogs a subset of the websites that fail on ipv6-only http://www.employees.org/~dwing/aaaa-stats/ And, my customers still complain about www.fra.dot.gov ... this works for everyone but me... because of HE...and I am already on IPv6-only ... and nobody will fix it. This issues has been known by the USG DOT for over 3 months, noted to NANOG, nobody cares to fix it. So, perhaps there is room in the I-D for including NAT64 synthesized address candidate set. Meaning the HE algo on an IPv6-only host would include the set of available native IPv6 answers as well as a 500ms timer for attempting an A query with using whatever mechanism is available to the host for relaying IPv4 packets across an IPv6 only network (RFC6877, Bump in API, ...) Without this, IPv6-only networks are at a painful disadvantage since IPv6 must be perfect while every other scenario has HE to mask brokenness. --94eb2c18881ab2fb3b054be457ad Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Just a comment following up on Jordi's Mic comment
Jordi said there was an issue with HE hiding IPv6 issues.

David's response was something along the lines = of "deploy ipv6-only".=C2=A0 I did not really understand this.

When folks deploy ipv6-only, they find they are= all alone with a broken ipv6 scenarios that work on all their competitors = IPv4-only networks and HE dual-stack networks.

Als= o, friendly reminder that Dan Wing catalogs a subset of the websites that f= ail on ipv6-only=C2=A0http://www.employees.org/~dwing/aaaa-stats/

And, my customers still complain about = www.fra.dot.gov ... this works for everyone but me... because of HE...a= nd I am already on IPv6-only ... and nobody will fix it.=C2=A0 This issues = has been known by the USG DOT for over 3 months, noted to NANOG, nobody car= es to fix it.

So, perhaps there is room in the I-D= for including NAT64 synthesized address candidate set.=C2=A0 Meaning the H= E algo on an IPv6-only host would include the set of available native IPv6 = answers as well as a 500ms timer for attempting an A query with using whate= ver mechanism is available to the host for relaying IPv4 packets across an = IPv6 only network (RFC6877, Bump in API, ...)=C2=A0

Without this, IPv6-only networks are at a painful disadvantage since IPv6= must be perfect while every other scenario has HE to mask brokenness.=C2= =A0
--94eb2c18881ab2fb3b054be457ad-- From nobody Wed Mar 29 13:40:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34EE6129408 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:40:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.679 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.679 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_FREEMAIL_DOC_PDF=0.01, T_HK_SPAMMY_FILENAME=0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LeoQLzjOvItB for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:40:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22f.google.com (mail-io0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B11221201F2 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id b140so6878570iof.1 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:40:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:reply-to:mime-version:date:subject:to:message-id; bh=GJQ9LCeMRo6D8vQGetIa5bHAkPWbAt/xWyjGTCJ4v3s=; b=igdlqAk69RjlF96nNV/WqG+qiIkQOncAdvg6I3R2jfIIqY9EabMSHYkC3++8wQlqR2 cFAww0thm1xV0yl91zCYb3O65nZlHh0MxLCYGSN543peSc4VxggXs+19RfzC0CtTPtE0 wKHQcZ+iwGC1165P7FXdJltWMetIqTOlNhv8gjb6ObyUyN3gyn+Uq4iGM7pijUmy9MJL o/PsZowku+G1mxaRxjdbONEcsWTmQixkmx2EwVoNdRPwe342mbIWHKEDqFf/Ph8fL9Kx H6CZrCF9+1JgHXEb0ElevASSn2hlhBlW8fjxjI8BDAIJJgCPmC4z05TrMXjc6yJ/ayDG kfzw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:reply-to:mime-version:date:subject:to :message-id; bh=GJQ9LCeMRo6D8vQGetIa5bHAkPWbAt/xWyjGTCJ4v3s=; b=e0St/0tZIsFNTv9x00klI03O6sCI0+PRphkCdiM/9f/my9gVMyAm6Ljks1ph2gtIns 1B2dOj/nzj4r2upkSSE7SRLDFJ2gPKD5VZ0oMKz57M2ty527y25ag5VFHDW5/d2tFMMD 5os5/WIgdiHMscRbj7qkpy1uW4yu2K0N7U1b1Db5wO4JoPS2hmIJNGZhnj5zI9pICLCx 7P9HzWQZn8v/NChWRjtbSULm+2aihaZzhzSN7CNUhrLbJBqrvH+y48dkliw6Z0oHOBYd 5jQCK8qPzrVxLlzC+Gho01kVAamHhW8XGqzm6DhsqkhBM84mTh7U6frRk5XF8ILRunW+ bVZg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1GDjstlWuOFJQYXKQuKfPuHsLD5QDDpR0MOt/eRXyACHplG/T1QtHKvzBJhkbtNA== X-Received: by 10.107.185.135 with SMTP id j129mr2737464iof.3.1490820043086; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:40:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from t2001067c037001281d70430dfe4751fd.v6.meeting.ietf.org (t2001067c037001281d70430dfe4751fd.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:1d70:430d:fe47:51fd]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x193sm3882256ite.21.2017.03.29.13.40.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:40:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DCF954B6-EA79-4663-8505-7D5B93FA779D" Reply-To: v6ops list Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:40:26 -0500 To: v6ops list Message-Id: <6C1E351B-F8B6-4BC2-890D-993A1F081226@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Outcomes from v6ops@IETF98 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:40:46 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DCF954B6-EA79-4663-8505-7D5B93FA779D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have attached a pdf of the proposed charter as it ended this = afternoon. I invite public commentary (to v6ops@ietf.org), and if you = support using it as it stands, please say so.. One question I intended to ask and didn't get to was the appropriateness = of an interim meeting, perhaps in mid-May. It would primarily address = draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations and = draft-petrescu-v6ops-ipv6-power-ipv4, and potentially = draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices if it is updated. There is an argument = for leaving these to IETF 99, and potentially booking a second slot for = that discussion. Your opinions? We have two WGLCs in progress or about to be so. The WGLC on = draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host, which Ron opened on 14 = March, will end on 9 April. We will then open a WGLC on = draft-ietf-v6ops-v4v6-xlat-prefix, to end 23 April. I believe that the discussion today supported adoption of the following = as working group drafts: draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs (as draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6rtr-reqs) draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis (as draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis) draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update (as = draft-ietf-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update) None of these can be considered to be "done". I would encourage people = with comments to make them to the list, carrying the draft name in the = subject line, and including suggested text for anything specific. --Apple-Mail=_DCF954B6-EA79-4663-8505-7D5B93FA779D Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Microsoft Word - IPv6 Operations (v6ops) -.docx.pdf" Content-Type: application/pdf; x-unix-mode=0600; name="Microsoft Word - IPv6 Operations (v6ops) -.docx.pdf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 JVBERi0xLjMKJcTl8uXrp/Og0MTGCjQgMCBvYmoKPDwgL0xlbmd0aCA1IDAgUiAvRmlsdGVyIC9G bGF0ZURlY29kZSA+PgpzdHJlYW0KeAHtXWuzHLdx/T6/YixSuktJXM77YTqKLNJ2rDiOHTHlD6I/ uPSoOEVatiSX/35OA+iD3nktZu/elVJlqepyFjPAAN2N7tONBuZv+e/zv+VldSzKYdR/q7wd+uPY VVXed+Hi26/yP+R/yZ+9+K7Mv/guL45jMxbl2MWrLJZ990XeFO1xLLoxrwq0MJRlXg7Dseul7eI4 5Gjv69N3j+OxlOeaZsB991Q2e2tZu//w1vkV3vo3udGjU/K/u2r6Y99haH3VH4ehLbMv3uafvMpb 94T+8+pt/uzVqyov81df55/nh588Qe0qP7zzJH/qLh7pxeNw511fkB3e0zt3evH6wKsnesWntP77 eoctf/Ak8+/is2zxw6d86qj1noWOaIN8uHA3soPeKMODVd1oXb3VakH3JP9j/urT/BevwJITgXgY 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2017 22:46:59 +0200 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:170329:md50005398383::w8UUCO0kMRi3DMGO:00005DJo X-MDRemoteIP: 31.133.135.95 X-Return-Path: prvs=1261afc47b=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:46:34 -0500 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: IPv6 Ops WG Message-ID: <34A0BBC1-E9C9-4856-BBB5-F6A2B9F4C72F@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-01 References: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:47:18 -0000 May be this is related to the US ESTA payment page, as it is broken since s= everal years ago (unless they sorted it out after I paid my renewal about 5= months ago), and nobody is paying attention or even responding to the emai= ls to their contacts =E2=80=A6 HE doesn=E2=80=99t even solve their problem, as it is related to PMTUD brok= en, so only if you know this and are an engineer know how to disable IPv6 t= o be able to access the payment =E2=80=A6 Nice example from a government :-= ( Regards, Jordi =20 -----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Ca By Responder a: Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 29 de marzo de 2017, 15:22 Para: IPv6 Ops WG Asunto: [v6ops] draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-01 Just a comment following up on Jordi's Mic comment Jordi said there was an issue with HE hiding IPv6 issues. =20 David's response was something along the lines of "deploy ipv6-only". = I did not really understand this. =20 When folks deploy ipv6-only, they find they are all alone with a broken= ipv6 scenarios that work on all their competitors IPv4-only networks and H= E dual-stack networks. =20 Also, friendly reminder that Dan Wing catalogs a subset of the websites= that fail on ipv6-only http://www.employees.org/~dwing/aaaa-stats/ =20 And, my customers still complain about www.fra.dot.gov ... this works for everyone but me... because of HE...and I am alr= eady on IPv6-only ... and nobody will fix it. This issues has been known b= y the USG DOT for over 3 months, noted to NANOG, nobody cares to fix it. =20 So, perhaps there is room in the I-D for including NAT64 synthesized ad= dress candidate set. Meaning the HE algo on an IPv6-only host would includ= e the set of available native IPv6 answers as well as a 500ms timer for att= empting an A query with using whatever mechanism is available to the host f= or relaying IPv4 packets across an IPv6 only network (RFC6877, Bump in API,= ...)=20 =20 Without this, IPv6-only networks are at a painful disadvantage since IP= v6 must be perfect while every other scenario has HE to mask brokenness.=20 =20 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Wed Mar 29 13:58:29 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 127D212945D for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:58:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BkHgj0sK48NW for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x229.google.com (mail-it0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94FF012947E for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x229.google.com with SMTP id 190so64109515itm.0 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:58:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=uHrmtuu4hEY0VC0RKLFBwJFHDiNQ9ucj0Cbz2KkwkWU=; b=J8AptRHzzi9LwwTNrBIxeA5/MwPeykCYHzyYG4RDGsqEb1y8CIWZD0uxq6rXxDRNwn aqTPimuLoCdVZHQ0OvJiglZC8vrodj42rB20Jpi8UH6D8sWckR9desvJdjuYeFIgQntd WKGJvTQI63nF3osMBNTtndrNyRpEOTEjv7tIaivuQ+m1R57wbfIWP750xgPpG1BICsEA 1PkU/7cCK8pOmd4wmrgY6J2fsTP0ezCxNu1KG9n9RzxD6OZqzySCRGjXi27f3HQkcYjo mUg8bOoTklUwGRU1aw5ig8xLQhaQnZxccozBRvppi9zE64qe+CDKX4d1jFnoEX7K1VNm FqOA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=uHrmtuu4hEY0VC0RKLFBwJFHDiNQ9ucj0Cbz2KkwkWU=; b=V0K9jRe8LKQE2qQoIHNVqFOHrlMW/Gt64X9CN6Cd0bojBISRO6AI9Icy8YAOBAwOXh DkLI9GMisQnNYgmJg3DrLAouGVfMpsVzaSQzi/3Yom+yx2q/KkymJMio7HGZ6GTFmHkZ QL9npPgLm7fmFRHQsuwi7/opKmfITu4ioKaxkPmStRW/d8Oq+iULCJFbGrF5ReY7dlp9 vnyGlKO6OXocI956rZNB9JnsU76kQni82mg21GTLSHpr5gsxprMyX0mb63iv9jK+oIwk URgeIuWAhqCSVi1iGtGQodUBG6N1C2aDh8Wsm7kJzsaFaayA0L9m/1y0NFf5r5npj2/D 8AVA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0N8pP/7wXVGzutuoTQuiH956zT0qeXicoGYmvf4sYiFBoLT4izl61Bo5dZfxNhNg== X-Received: by 10.36.200.8 with SMTP id w8mr460195itf.112.1490821106018; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:58:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from t2001067c037001281d70430dfe4751fd.v6.meeting.ietf.org (t2001067c037001281d70430dfe4751fd.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:1d70:430d:fe47:51fd]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g69sm240080itg.17.2017.03.29.13.58.20 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:58:25 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <6C1E351B-F8B6-4BC2-890D-993A1F081226@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 15:58:09 -0500 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <95E46CE5-F904-483B-9952-BB38A76B7BCB@gmail.com> References: <6C1E351B-F8B6-4BC2-890D-993A1F081226@gmail.com> To: v6ops list X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Outcomes from v6ops@IETF98 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:58:28 -0000 On Mar 29, 2017, at 3:40 PM, Fred Baker = wrote: > I believe that the discussion today supported adoption of the = following as working group drafts: > draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs (as draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6rtr-reqs) > draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis (as draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis) > draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update (as = draft-ietf-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update) What I didn't say and intended to - if you agree or disagree, please say = so.= From nobody Wed Mar 29 16:08:36 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F51D129635 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:08:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VFIuhEO2P7g0 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x231.google.com (mail-vk0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B06F51294A6 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:08:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x231.google.com with SMTP id r69so35778596vke.2 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:08:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=s7faB9eCNaQdBDPzi5w9IFkQ8ozuFO8M88jQrsJ8dgs=; b=IqI5VZ3jlbkQgDl71Nec+X1+gG+q6NspYPACmlyH3K09TlDiQbEp2/gpJj1gQg+LPG ScufLWJAwgCtqtmBk9jA5Vfm4F/ohKFsoL2HqMuZEptnkFjqCK02SFadOeDO9jiHhP0P j2OgseCzoTu74D0XWsie3DC5A5a/KooUqKIUszguzXfI81F0WcgfFUnA1shDKXe4N66B euirRsHxhuYUyNz1LMmKjnFQIatrKs+TjJt1wkpRPNNoFtvf/Qjsr0Uxn03IKzOVVihC ipuK2GtOjukW+Cr8BzKrccBiTw+VrQOO+7YiUGBr+/Yb1e69ux3NeL4yFmgUs7BIitYC zRog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=s7faB9eCNaQdBDPzi5w9IFkQ8ozuFO8M88jQrsJ8dgs=; b=aOnZnZ9l/tbzCt8+zuf5oIhfApbg0KO9lTC1e3lfArL9Ws6TcEdod5kQHY98r0nhol lE3U6p/ZlUaHicq48yfMTPL5nxV7HFSXt7MTd99O3hbaE58Qi5XkZ2kjuTpSdJ+HFHAs i54sPxCCSfSEVCjOYCLMFu4Tdas3e2gW4p6A4lswxhgk78L2KHWn9N5x3nVxp9I+ZE5n 8XjTuX1ujPhMhPwgVlBQYG/EATefIY4yqex9tgNTlyHjlIFFGXwXQnDJiegCxAJ8xA39 +wWcNioIZMAtAMfB6mVOP1XZ30Pq7DZhxsrNKoJTBnQoDgDoTzw4XM2gOhg99Irswl6O zjfA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0IIVmMtkQ4qiGCdf/cGR3douEPGMYqCmSk/J2zyLjU61eJVQGq2i3K77EQbgi6EOU+2un5hWHXYiJqw1Dy X-Received: by 10.159.36.77 with SMTP id 71mr1810534uaq.124.1490828912556; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:08:32 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.137.142 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:08:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:08:12 -0500 Message-ID: To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113dc80ec158d8054be6a713 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 23:08:36 -0000 --001a113dc80ec158d8054be6a713 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Given the discussion today on draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration and draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs , I'm wondering if we might find consensus to say that host and router implementations MUST implement RDNSS. The argument would be that: - It provides a way of configuring DNS servers that will work on every compliant implementation, resolving the interoperability problems noted in draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration - Nodes MUST already support SLAAC (RFC 6434 =C2=A75.9.2), and once SLAA= C is implemented, adding support for RDNSS is fairly simple This could be either in a v6ops BCP or in the update of the node requirements that is being edited by Tim. Thoughts? --001a113dc80ec158d8054be6a713 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Given the discussion today on=C2=A0draft-gont-v6ops-host-c= onfiguration and draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs , I'm wondering if we might fin= d consensus to say that host and router implementations MUST implement RDNS= S.

The argument would be that:
  • It prov= ides a way of configuring DNS servers that will work on every compliant imp= lementation, resolving the interoperability problems noted in=C2=A0draft-go= nt-v6ops-host-configuration
  • Nodes MUST already support SLAAC (RFC 6= 434=C2=A0=C2=A75.9.2), and once SLAAC is implemented, adding support for RD= NSS is fairly simple
This could be either in a v6ops BCP or i= n the update of the node requirements that is being edited by Tim.

Thoughts?
--001a113dc80ec158d8054be6a713-- From nobody Wed Mar 29 16:11:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15730129611 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:11:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BRVIEIQ8tJKn for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:11:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22a.google.com (mail-io0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F2A791294A6 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id b140so8900701iof.1 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:11:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=3U09GYQ0gx1UQiru9xYhR8cUncnELU+IfiozTXodeXA=; b=CwNgWZjRfZU4yBdkAsAjRpLWf7C3mj90HybdPyws9TZJJpQUTwitqAVFqdSisiwnH6 h+tGZRrd/CToz5cExyiGObZ5b/JViuaxFRnGM5yqDYg9UGQs4pQbuz/WXetQjCm+dPxD hLntepKi6Ib3iqDqMaP6Uj/ZP6/Gmxqmhmmw8isyP+4jRJTQAn7s9dt7oVOZObQP+F4W vb4yMIKKhR/JznXn9RWZK9PWyXTFzduIAa8vBk9XhK4lYpfHQXG/o5F6adkHryj2HzY0 tgtPjTuqq93EqSXysWHvZ+bgffQO9I6Mnm9Fr4/9KEAzsoTSRLZJlwZgy0xiGMcOHJkw ePPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=3U09GYQ0gx1UQiru9xYhR8cUncnELU+IfiozTXodeXA=; b=sc/A3IcHdV8g2X5S7crj//siukbJFLOciaf2TdAGrpMS6siZ7Xt/WgvL66ALmEWik7 WeqvQZP73V2m7/3a+dNNlg9mn9QbxjlmbeagS4okfvwrti+XTj8CMTfRvmXYwh5bNT6L z+i/gB4iN1Xs9pt3dUix60TP4K1Vi//+smsy5+ac+C0Gy33B4rx5VMHJZ1USGi6VtUPw hyvj2Wf/+5V2M7WGWLgcN+zw3eCiQzDPXfPf2WJooUdL5m4QprzyFf35G73sUdJeBwaj QwhqZbz3z6vUe+7FmSzOOW0X7NYvmcr06MuHFlqQOAB5z4xsQocx+JiNEWimF2izWE5g pm3g== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3fSPjHZUV3gQDbL9aNlCDEfsxrZPN5RAVo+oKMIfn5By3ABB+C8gTot/B+BEFijg== X-Received: by 10.107.187.199 with SMTP id l190mr56290iof.86.1490829067389; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:11:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from t2001067c03700128e4d2003d06ef499c.v6.meeting.ietf.org (t2001067c03700128e4d2003d06ef499c.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:e4d2:3d:6ef:499c]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l33sm440146iod.8.2017.03.29.16.11.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:11:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <694031B7-1D51-4E56-B8A2-F2B15A16A6F6@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_485991A1-AC41-43B5-913F-18217B615380" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:11:05 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" To: Lorenzo Colitti References: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 23:11:11 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_485991A1-AC41-43B5-913F-18217B615380 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mar 29, 2017, at 6:08 PM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > Thoughts? I don't know how much value this work has in the short term, but in = service of the long term I think it's a good idea to do it. --Apple-Mail=_485991A1-AC41-43B5-913F-18217B615380 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Mar 29, 2017, at 6:08 PM, Lorenzo Colitti <lorenzo@google.com> wrote:
Thoughts?

I don't know how much value this work has in the short term, but in service of the long term I think it's a good idea to do it.


--Apple-Mail=_485991A1-AC41-43B5-913F-18217B615380-- From nobody Wed Mar 29 16:12:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F2E61296BF for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:12:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3kU2i9jzLXA2 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:12:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50EC91271DF for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 16:12:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1490829157; x=1491433957; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=Tt1J6J8PRTNBjdc0q51vCl7FS yx0EKR95xe7eguVF3g=; b=skTttAexUQj9aDsMitwbs0Yj7sxyw03z3GjufMB4X 13cD1ckhwytphvPriBg3d+mYp30CtntvI8iSQF/nZBtD5BEcybxbq3UIO4kuy4Kv aD+Wwf2zN4KykwDRYnzkj/Q5osKrPnPy0Aw2kWDHULlDVnRD6L1MWUjfv7YSEeYx fI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=ZAVcTA0UFjAcBRtrPLpF6nmBNK/Ix3D2XNAH5nRlhhDHKJQICpjCJsLyheq+ ey72hzwKN36ZHSvB+DyTCDOZkE5oepIjjX8hL1nMgrVg0j4voNgGHcpyJ 7a2kFTTRTv+R5qzreN9HNNhFpOvT/GwsSPH9RT2lgPbKgrEcIrXjW4=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 30 Mar 2017 01:12:37 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 30 Mar 2017 01:12:36 +0200 Received: from [31.133.135.95] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005398477.msg for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 01:12:36 +0200 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:170329:md50005398477::dZQd4HUsZpdbsOn6:00001Ln7 X-MDRemoteIP: 31.133.135.95 X-Return-Path: prvs=1261afc47b=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:12:27 -0500 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Message-ID: <4635A6B8-2A6F-4403-9822-E8357BD1373A@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? References: In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 23:12:46 -0000 +1 I will say that updating the node requirements will make it, as the routers= must also bound to those requirements, right? So we can avoid one more new= document =E2=80=A6 Regards, Jordi =20 -----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Lorenzo Colitti Responder a: Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 29 de marzo de 2017, 18:08 Para: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Asunto: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? Given the discussion today on draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration and d= raft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs , I'm wondering if we might find consensus to say tha= t host and router implementations MUST implement RDNSS. The argument would be that: =20 * It provides a way of configuring DNS servers that will work on every = compliant implementation, resolving the interoperability problems noted in = draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration * Nodes MUST already support SLAAC (RFC 6434 =C2=A75.9.2), and once SLA= AC is implemented, adding support for RDNSS is fairly simple =20 This could be either in a v6ops BCP or in the update of the node requir= ements that is being edited by Tim. =20 Thoughts? =20 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. 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Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:29:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.332 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.332 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id b4Yg7o1p6GeY for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:29:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 68706124D68 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:29:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2U0TZOL023310 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 02:29:35 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id BC823200D04 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 02:29:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id B35FF200CE5 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 02:29:35 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.84.22] ([132.166.84.22]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2U0TYtD030517 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 02:29:35 +0200 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 19:29:20 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 00:29:41 -0000 Igor, After our discussion, I agree with you that the LL prefixes could also be noted as: fe80::/ffc0:: I think this is good, because it also allows for an address like fe81::/ffc0:: to be interpreted as a link-local address that has the prefix fe80::/10. But, if I understand you correctly, you mean that fe81::/ffc0:: (or fe81::/10 for that matter) is more an address and potentially a prefix, rather than simply a prefix. To clarify that, I think the suggestion from Simon Hobson called "lowest value that fits" to explain why fe80::/10 means a prefix whereas fe81::/10 means an address _and_ a prefix should be written down. Also, I think that it is worth noting that fe81::/10 (aka fe81::/ffc0::) is not an anycast address. Alex Le 27/03/2017 01:09, Lubashev, Igor a crit : > Ive uploaded a draft, suggesting weve been too tame with IPv6 > addresses, treating them to be just like IPv4 addresses, only longer. > > > > Id like to get some feedback from the WG as to the content as well as > the applicability of the subject in the WG. The link is here: > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask/. > > To save a click, I am including the abstract. > > > > Many thanks in advance for frank feedback, > > > > - Igor > > > > ------------------------------------ > > Abstract > > > > With significantly longer IPv6 address prefixes assigned to ISPs, > operators sometimes find opportunities to assign special meaning to > lower-order bit patterns. Often, these bit patterns cannot be expressed > as an address prefix. > > > > This RFC introduces IPv6 Address/Mask notation that allows one to > express address groupings beyond all addresses that share a single > prefix. The notation is similar to the IPv4 Address/Mask notation in > its expressiveness, but its syntax is derived from the traditional > Address/Prefix-length notation. The traditional Address/Prefix-length > notation is a special case of the Address/Mask notation. > > > > For example, using this notation, both 2001:db8::/32 and > 2001:db8::/ffff:ffff:: have the same meaning. However, the following > requires the new notation: 2001:db8::1234/ffff:ffff::ffff or, > equivalently, 2001:db8::1234/32+::ffff. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Wed Mar 29 18:39:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 338F4126E3A for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:39:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id htCpRSughzWp for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x22e.google.com (mail-io0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 93CE7127A90 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id f84so10363927ioj.0 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:39:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=mga3xRs+xvyHY0YCIYmVZIltnxUwcx2disCqMBDrNcA=; b=prCJBW3B5O2WX671R36e54eDA2b4CKwXHTZPGCXEx23NuPRs+7JLjN3vNIIQiZTUo8 rblK6d1ORsKbGqayFkqJWo8VUb1UnpL3nLoZm1DQWRFqtADHwt7+Y6weNGX+6mKyPVmC Y9OvyOdj5b3uyVHkeXz/u46Q7NytfAvQRfjLrxW0X7p0CQ9m6KVMKMLCvdpQkx0eGzOD u3fkLjh6yoRZRajxQjjykZLXGps8CzRiAUGSaONTqtdN1iTPTRGIOVjC1CAoKtQotDum /akFQ4NSatU2HF+uIrmH6WOuhrQ7ZB3hSWs6HWyeVEaLwRgVlxlGsPgioeCt7Nnqp/Jp kWUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=mga3xRs+xvyHY0YCIYmVZIltnxUwcx2disCqMBDrNcA=; b=naU1AvmnZZ57T2em1odWEklRzAlYXGBoKxAdC6Tk7BVg70wtBj0/jjMEl3O1CaXlE5 i0qrNdIKMZ7y4JiK5RgWbd11PC7bxyE/Kq3BFQvbs5QVJEvjBTSOOTJIFeDFgJ/Qb/tZ zJYEiKeMUcl4Cj4jf9KVf+jsYgVIoA+UYBgxEfFVbeWE7pXsnjhzzt/8wyDoMZMH2aI+ LcjGtPeHw1Oubn0kWMdizBUG/vUAag5k02BoXgN+Tg6guZ04GDzQQNPleAT4A+xpLvk3 XfVp2urx3/t0Bh6DMS8584sNBCFkdF4oTBo9LoYiPffxVjuYl94rHBQDds/aYcubd07q clFw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2fYMrzy3ikbKYR9CojoLlCGDdvrn8pQzQrFoyBJ4XZcH4aEPSlDEYpmi/CSxSoVA== X-Received: by 10.107.12.215 with SMTP id 84mr4210551iom.89.1490837985032; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:39:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:1233::b5ef:741d:7ffe:1cb? ([2001:67c:1233:0:b5ef:741d:7ffe:1cb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id h15sm4279996ita.20.2017.03.29.18.39.43 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 29 Mar 2017 18:39:44 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.2 \(3259\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 29 Mar 2017 20:39:42 -0500 Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> To: Alexandre Petrescu X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 01:39:47 -0000 > On Mar 29, 2017, at 7:29 PM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 > I think this is good, because it also allows for an address like >=20 > fe81::/ffc0:: >=20 > to be interpreted as a link-local address that has the prefix = fe80::/10. Except it's not. It's site-local.= From nobody Wed Mar 29 22:01:57 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F17B9129629 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 22:01:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8VCQ-37lLcmr for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 22:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 670171204DA for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 22:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.0.20/8.16.0.20) with SMTP id v2U51XBu023243; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:01:51 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=RcIMW24SHh48aWxUXa3M57FXKCoRTa0k6SokBdQJ7Hc=; b=FIY7b8AZFY84hNH/HyvMIR3Vfnajqr6W3mjddE8CraYHvPFGcMhwJvaI2TMno5G32Z3t WxVnbxi6sfsfFJgItRD34pGvO39MP8QH7iN8tm9Oaz3e4/Ct7z+NE7BYl8L8Ok9TD4lY TFmYp0GrOYhV/gZZVqjUnGtKzXGP/Onp0AeJjhGQyxMw7DitfFOOHPNBatmhyDW5uUoQ 3mImIEuntCozZW4hh4qBbXAKRNRUWTbfMV/TCr3SDJGRVbghzXSbwPWxeX9BRDts95T/ e+IICR5nxpzbFdfuDBnDOOQONUzaLRtDKbeEPhrHjkpf9Vyanne81OpLhTxTj14zyDZI 4g== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint1 (a184-51-33-18.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [184.51.33.18] (may be forged)) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 29gfhm73c8-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:01:51 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v2U51R3f005261; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 01:01:47 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.34]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 29fsutrvsk-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 01:01:47 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb1.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.101) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 01:01:46 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 01:01:46 -0400 From: "Lubashev, Igor" To: Fred Baker , Alexandre Petrescu CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix Thread-Index: AQHSqOy/AzCzWeIXA0CQplnRf7fWe6Gs3jUA///lUAA= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:01:45 +0000 Message-ID: <117ee476c0d0423d8363b521e53c27e6@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.39.71] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-30_03:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703300047 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-30_03:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703300047 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:01:56 -0000 Site-local addresses are (were) fec0::/10. The most proper way to interpret fe81::/10 is as an invalid address that fa= lls within a range reserved for link-local addresses. See Verifier Notes f= or the rejection of Errata 4406 of FRC 4291 (https://www.rfc-editor.org/err= ata_search.php?rfc=3D4291&eid=3D4406). - Igor -----Original Message----- From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, March 29, 2017 8:40 PM To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notat= ion - LL address and prefix > On Mar 29, 2017, at 7:29 PM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: >=20 > I think this is good, because it also allows for an address like >=20 > fe81::/ffc0:: >=20 > to be interpreted as a link-local address that has the prefix fe80::/10. Except it's not. It's site-local. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Wed Mar 29 23:59:53 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4E0941293E9 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 23:59:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 23fDcm7-6aiG for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 23:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B3051272E1 for ; Wed, 29 Mar 2017 23:59:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id EB6B2A5; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:59:44 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1490857184; bh=cbqKbOr35K5PMnTkGhDVOgEneshuH/DAcTChI199FyE=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=qzeIM2MuE2gK/T0A1cWTccTuvTKXyAWfVDbogkasdDLUHlCHvAoyzqkx2BjjYIeDR ugYkU2wk8YOkYHkikA/TVMdI5d0ajkHlzJ7M7+vPFcwkMlX1Hd/iZR/bd5k8kc5TZU +o/xc6Qi6s9w+ZSHvRE9UFNsbNN6/saFSrHQu3wk= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6A63A4; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:59:44 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:59:44 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ cc: IPv6 Ops WG In-Reply-To: <34A0BBC1-E9C9-4856-BBB5-F6A2B9F4C72F@consulintel.es> Message-ID: References: <34A0BBC1-E9C9-4856-BBB5-F6A2B9F4C72F@consulintel.es> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: MULTIPART/MIXED; BOUNDARY="-137064504-1038791073-1490857184=:30226" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:59:51 -0000 This message is in MIME format. The first part should be readable text, while the remaining parts are likely unreadable without MIME-aware tools. ---137064504-1038791073-1490857184=:30226 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT On Wed, 29 Mar 2017, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > May be this is related to the US ESTA payment page, as it is broken since several years ago (unless they sorted it out after I paid my renewal about 5 months ago), and nobody is paying attention or even responding to the emails to their contacts … > > HE doesn’t even solve their problem, as it is related to PMTUD broken, > so only if you know this and are an engineer know how to disable IPv6 to > be able to access the payment … Nice example from a government :-( I agree with both Lorenzo and Jordi here, there are multiple problems that won't get fixed, having "hard" failures doesn't seem to help that much at this time, but with the PMTUD failure mode as well (which might not be discovered until TCP handshake is already done), what about adding additional methods to try? "normal HE mode with IPv4/IPv6" If these fails, let's say 500ms "try NAT64 method" (what Lorenzo proposed) if these succeed but I'm not getting any data (for instance my GET / seems to time out, no data for 5 seconds) then I try again but with TCP MSS 1200 and PMTU 1280 (I purposely went below MSS 1220, perhaps there is no reason to). In Linux one could do this with adding a host route to the specific destination with lower MTU and ADVMSS values (I have no idea what other operating systems have available). I know this requires a lot more logic and might be invasive all the way up to the application layer, but I think it's the only way to really work around the PMTUD problem. It would also be nice if there were some reporting mechanism (diagnostics reporting) so that the devices could make a list of services that it needed to fallback to this behaviour to, both for diagnostics reporting and potentially also for caching what method to try so that any subsequent attempts to the same DNS/IP address by default went to the MSS1200 method from the beginning? We should probably also say that PLMTUD should be default-on (as far as I can tell it's supported for TCP in a lot of operating systems, but it's not default on?). This would also workaround the problem. I know if we do the above there is much less reason for people to fix their PMTUD hindering problems... but isn't it still better to do it this way than to have user breakage, especially for users who are behind new technology and this breakage is hindering that new technology because ISPs are afraid to deploy it? -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se ---137064504-1038791073-1490857184=:30226-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 02:29:25 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 88C14129413 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 02:29:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id s2Ys6KBbNZx4 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 02:29:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo.hq.phicoh.net [130.37.15.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0515E126C89 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 02:29:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1ctWOM-0000IOC; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:29:18 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <34A0BBC1-E9C9-4856-BBB5-F6A2B9F4C72F@consulintel.es> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:59:44 +0200 (CEST) ." Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:29:17 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:29:24 -0000 >I agree with both Lorenzo and Jordi here, there are multiple problems that >won't get fixed, having "hard" failures doesn't seem to help that much at >this time, but with the PMTUD failure mode as well (which might not be >discovered until TCP handshake is already done), what about adding >additional methods to try? > >"normal HE mode with IPv4/IPv6" >If these fails, let's say 500ms >"try NAT64 method" (what Lorenzo proposed) > >if these succeed but I'm not getting any data (for instance my GET / seems >to time out, no data for 5 seconds) > >then I try again but with TCP MSS 1200 and PMTU 1280 (I purposely went >below MSS 1220, perhaps there is no reason to). I was very surprised to hear it, but there are already middle boxes close to the customer edge (or in the CPE) that do MSS clamping for IPv6. It is hard to quantify, but in IPv4 lots of potential PMTU problems are masked by MSS clamping. Given that on the whole we failed to have PMTU blackhole detection/avoidance deployed at large on the server side, using MSS clamping will be the most effective way to deal with this problem. From nobody Thu Mar 30 03:07:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06B49129634 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 03:07:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Fa-0lg-9wwVi for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 03:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82C791295B3 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 03:07:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from [192.168.1.55] (lan.furness.net [84.9.59.220]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 053A81BC37 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:07:23 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:07:01 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <731DBBD1-3FE5-404B-8711-69AF434C35DB@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> To: "v6ops@ietf.org Operations" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:07:14 -0000 Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > But, if I understand you correctly, you mean that fe81::/ffc0:: (or = fe81::/10 for that matter) is more an address and potentially a prefix, = rather than simply a prefix. >=20 > To clarify that, I think the suggestion from Simon Hobson called = "lowest value that fits" to explain why fe80::/10 means a prefix whereas = fe81::/10 means an address _and_ a prefix should be written down. Exactly, if you apply the prefix mask to fe81::/10 then you get a prefix = of fe80/10 and a host identifier part of 1:: which means the address = isn't a network address but a host address within the subnet fe80::/10 AFAIK this is unchanged from IPv4 so it really shouldn't be a problem = for anyone. "Lubashev, Igor" wrote: > The most proper way to interpret fe81::/10 is as an invalid address = that falls within a range reserved for link-local addresses. See = Verifier Notes for the rejection of Errata 4406 of FRC 4291 = (https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=3D4291&eid=3D4406). Ah, interesting. From nobody Thu Mar 30 03:15:05 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C11B8126CD8 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 03:15:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hrsx7WADr_Is for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 03:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B7D2129530 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 03:15:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id AA6A2A5; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:14:58 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1490868898; bh=nflME1y29xct3iOqVJacK2wlvE2x9F5+p+Tvh/EFAfI=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=xygmDweURZEkjSKk/dtsu/qwu8XrXhtK1eQWjh17apnmWj6DkOeRLV5DJ5uQPyohc uShcpLqKiCgKk8lLSmnTdUjvVxgysLZ7S5xiL/ztZ1yCTIUse2IZuDPMj8le1/1Mha 2KpPHcgFRdIGBM0zietgf0/ypEft/bwFHnTjOdqI= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92FC3A4; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:14:58 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:14:58 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Philip Homburg cc: v6ops@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <34A0BBC1-E9C9-4856-BBB5-F6A2B9F4C72F@consulintel.es> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:15:04 -0000 On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Philip Homburg wrote: > It is hard to quantify, but in IPv4 lots of potential PMTU problems are > masked by MSS clamping. Yes. I don't have data, but I have commonly talked to people in the business who are of the opinion that MSS clamping solves "all" problems. When I point out that there are other protocols I typically get back that MSS clamping is good enough and solved all their customer complaints. While I don't really like the approach, I think the pragmatic thing to do is to have the devices themselves have the ability to do PMTUD clamping if they have lots of problems that can be attributed to PMTUD, and then have this reported by means of diagnostics report to application/device vendor. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Thu Mar 30 04:23:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DA303126C7B for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 04:23:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id DHC77wo391kW for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 04:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94D82129487 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 04:23:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v2UBNg2K098755 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:23:42 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local Message-ID: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:23:42 +0100 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.12 (Macintosh/20170323) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: IPv6 Operations X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------000902060003070108030109" Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:23:49 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------000902060003070108030109 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit No comment is necessary here: https://twitter.com/jaredmauch/status/847227063467560961 Nick --------------000902060003070108030109 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------000902060003070108030109-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 04:32:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C89F11294B1 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 04:32:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PcbrYCYh_msV for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 04:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx1.ernw.net (mx1.ernw.net [IPv6:2003:60:4010:10a0::11]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C122112965E for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 04:32:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail1.ernw.net (unknown [IPv6:fd00:2001:0:d001::30]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "mail1.ernw.net", Issuer "ernw ca1" (verified OK)) by mx1.ernw.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 377922732C for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:32:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from ws26.ernw.net (unknown [172.31.1.70]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "ws26.ernw.net", Issuer "ernw ca1" (verified OK)) by mail1.ernw.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9A3862D109E for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:32:31 +0200 (CEST) Received: by ws26.ernw.net (Postfix, from userid 1002) id 883F939B12; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:32:32 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:32:32 +0200 From: Enno Rey To: v6ops@ietf.org Message-ID: <20170330113232.GD98455@ernw.de> References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.1 (2016-10-04) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:32:43 -0000 Here's another stat, from a recent security event https://twitter.com/Enno_Insinuator/status/847410736041152512 Enno On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 12:23:42PM +0100, Nick Hilliard wrote: > No comment is necessary here: > > https://twitter.com/jaredmauch/status/847227063467560961 > > Nick > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- Enno Rey ERNW GmbH - Carl-Bosch-Str. 4 - 69115 Heidelberg - www.ernw.de Tel. +49 6221 480390 - Fax 6221 419008 - Cell +49 173 6745902 Handelsregister Mannheim: HRB 337135 Geschaeftsfuehrer: Enno Rey ======================================================= Blog: www.insinuator.net || Conference: www.troopers.de Twitter: @Enno_Insinuator ======================================================= From nobody Thu Mar 30 04:48:18 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0A5101294D7 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 04:48:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id y7Jow8r2GXju for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 04:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6C0D81200C1 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 04:48:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1ctYYl-0000ACC; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:48:11 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <20170330113232.GD98455@ernw.de> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:32:32 +0200 ." <20170330113232.GD98455@ernw.de> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:48:10 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:48:16 -0000 In your letter dated Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:32:32 +0200 you wrote: >Here's another stat, from a recent security event > >https://twitter.com/Enno_Insinuator/status/847410736041152512 What I see as my dog food, is that wifi just has to provide dual stack. If people want to play around with other stuff, fine. I personally consider dual stack the only sensible way of providing both IPv6 and IPv4 to a host. (The wifi access point is free to do 464xlat, I don't care) So in places where dual stack is not the default (FOSDEM for example), I specifically connect to a 'legacy' network that provides dual stack. If, in the far future 99% of the content I need is available over IPv6, then I'm willing to entertain the notion of connecting to an IPv6-only network. I find the relatively large number of connections IETF-legacy more interesting. Do these people have trouble connecting to 802.1X or is there another reason? From nobody Thu Mar 30 04:58:47 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D3FED129574 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 04:58:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tqrDoP5rlKkl for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 04:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 85DC5129489 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 04:58:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 382E1A5; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:58:39 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1490875119; bh=xchLyOtAduyawQqoygU5iS9XgcvlzmvRYHYsz4/sXAg=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=gtjuFUPDwrXyDZA4pgiWm13w9gGk10+AiNUUhUbN1p8Ks/0z+oCPS4CV+6stT8ven Nf6OQVUuUFbDEPADi7NL/eTPCvvQ5RwAEarMnVIGW6TAt5Pnh8VDst/N6R7aisozqS D+WCwXad26Tn0mXeWktkbLlF56KzkOmuUmYZ3x9Y= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1EE52A4; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:58:39 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:58:39 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Philip Homburg cc: v6ops@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <20170330113232.GD98455@ernw.de> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:58:44 -0000 On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Philip Homburg wrote: > I find the relatively large number of connections IETF-legacy more > interesting. Do these people have trouble connecting to 802.1X or is > there another reason? Most people at the IETF meeting show up and their devices connect to some network that is in the connection table. If they've been to an IETF before, it's likely they have one or several networks in there and "it just works" and they never check what SSID they're connected to. So I imagine it's not a conscious decision. If I were there, I would probably use the NAT64 one on my iOS devices, so far my testing has shown that it works very well (with recent iOS that does the NAT64 prefix bump-in-API functionality to handle IPv4 literals). On MacOS, not so much. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Thu Mar 30 05:11:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E1BBC1294BD for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:11:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yaIOvEqQWRXQ for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3C2CC129489 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:11:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1ctYvJ-0000GSC; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:11:29 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <34A0BBC1-E9C9-4856-BBB5-F6A2B9F4C72F@consulintel.es> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:14:58 +0200 (CEST) ." Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:11:29 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:11:32 -0000 >On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Philip Homburg wrote: > >> It is hard to quantify, but in IPv4 lots of potential PMTU problems are >> masked by MSS clamping. > >Yes. I don't have data, but I have commonly talked to people in the >business who are of the opinion that MSS clamping solves "all" problems. > >When I point out that there are other protocols I typically get back that >MSS clamping is good enough and solved all their customer complaints. It's sad how little some people know about internet protocols. >While I don't really like the approach, I think the pragmatic thing to do >is to have the devices themselves have the ability to do PMTUD clamping if >they have lots of problems that can be attributed to PMTUD, and then have >this reported by means of diagnostics report to application/device vendor. The 'nice' thing about doing MSS clamping in a CPE is that the CPE knows what it is using to connect to the internet. A host would have to probe every time it connects to a network for local PMTU limitations. I wonder what the operational impact would be if every host would start sending maximum sized packets to some well known destination right after connecting to the network. From nobody Thu Mar 30 05:11:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3F52F129690 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:11:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es; domainkeys=pass (1024-bit key) header.from=jordi.palet@consulintel.es header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KKfG1LZF27jc for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:11:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [217.126.185.215]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C2CEF129691 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:11:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1490875901; x=1491480701; q=dns/txt; h=DomainKey-Signature: Received:User-Agent:Date:Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic: References:In-Reply-To:Mime-version:Content-type: Content-transfer-encoding:Reply-To; bh=qlxwfXqUo0aOb75bcqQWY3jRk 0qngo82Lvc6txXESpo=; b=nTZvsmeiS0JAOxw4bIlmZcBgNsY+FLyKHwrYHJlDS UCIqPUaB1dN/uDDGjNgqpBFld7b/K7ifmKuP37a7m+6bGfrzNARcDJHwIue0n3Rj bhR8HA+q5GU91hqLu/OfxWaPMkRWRtxSO5u0GjJYUZDrJJ07aUKczNu79jPWPaaA ns= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; s=MDaemon; d=consulintel.es; c=simple; q=dns; h=from:message-id; b=ocPZtDaFuHHDCoxU0uZ8M07SV1bk3GbywIOfyZUwXtzsohypVSMfkvGS3bD2 w5lCIxsaUu6/zm3+Gx5EI8hwgAtJybVNIxgXpUYAh+lyX0+oIT4xjzPbs lKbmoI2CV9AJeK9uwD9/6u/VnBGwSLX6txoeMIj1j38fv5lILWB5IM=; X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:11:41 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:11:40 +0200 Received: from [10.20.3.27] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v11.0.3) with ESMTP id md50005398785.msg for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:11:40 +0200 X-MDOP-RefID: re=0.000,fgs=0 (_st=1 _vt=0 _iwf=0) X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-HashCash: 1:20:170330:md50005398785::huTrt+s5D0+foUcd:00000Nb7 X-MDRemoteIP: 64.134.175.173 X-Return-Path: prvs=12627eaabd=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/f.20.0.170309 Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:11:36 -0500 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: <5F2CCCAE-C56F-4C48-A169-249F54F9ADD2@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <20170330113232.GD98455@ernw.de> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Reply-To: jordi.palet@consulintel.es Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:11:51 -0000 Actually, here at the IETF network, I got a /64 delegated to my laptop and = I=E2=80=99m running a VM with a CLAT. So, I=E2=80=99m connected to the NAT6= 4 network and running dual-stack with private IPv4 addresses, and making su= re that everything I run works, even if uses literal addresses. Regards, Jordi =20 -----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Philip Homburg Responder a: Fecha: jueves, 30 de marzo de 2017, 6:48 Para: Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food In your letter dated Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:32:32 +0200 you wrote: >Here's another stat, from a recent security event > >https://twitter.com/Enno_Insinuator/status/847410736041152512 =20 What I see as my dog food, is that wifi just has to provide dual stack. =20 If people want to play around with other stuff, fine. I personally cons= ider dual stack the only sensible way of providing both IPv6 and IPv4 to a h= ost. (The wifi access point is free to do 464xlat, I don't care) =20 So in places where dual stack is not the default (FOSDEM for example), = I=20 specifically connect to a 'legacy' network that provides dual stack. =20 If, in the far future 99% of the content I need is available over IPv6,= =20 then I'm willing to entertain the notion of connecting to an IPv6-only network. =20 I find the relatively large number of connections IETF-legacy more inte= resting. Do these people have trouble connecting to 802.1X or is there another r= eason? =20 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the use of the individual(= s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any dis= closure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = including attached files, is prohibited. From nobody Thu Mar 30 05:21:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 224B3126B6E for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:21:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.302 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.302 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sDv9d-YjipfJ for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (swm.pp.se [212.247.200.143]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AA9EC1294E4 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:20:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id CE6DDA5; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:20:57 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1490876457; bh=TKF9FlFB+LN1aUcts8E1bqUup1RV4u2EkGYU6gVg/h8=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=DK1pj3RPvkCxx4cbzfF3aMs2CQW5wNbscYLL+LKaNPbS4W0TBwPx4r4g5kjf9TuO7 pIBrAimHXA/FjJqgUbdZGZMxaq+o3ozG8ZqAB5DeVwDNsE7nZg39gXCm90hHCPTDxL cNDQBq+Em/TeFxNXBUE9G6x0orDdNt9D/Ub3wIdI= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB7F0A4; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:20:57 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:20:57 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Philip Homburg cc: v6ops@ietf.org In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <34A0BBC1-E9C9-4856-BBB5-F6A2B9F4C72F@consulintel.es> User-Agent: Alpine 2.02 (DEB 1266 2009-07-14) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:21:01 -0000 On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Philip Homburg wrote: > A host would have to probe every time it connects to a network for local > PMTU limitations. I wonder what the operational impact would be if every > host would start sending maximum sized packets to some well known > destination right after connecting to the network. Well, I advocate to send lower MTU than 1500 in RA if you know that the upstream has lower than 1500 MTU. Otherwise you get a lot of useless PMTUD traffic from clients. Doing bidirectional MSS clamping makes sense as well, and I think some residential routers do this already. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Thu Mar 30 05:41:20 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38865129421 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:41:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.749 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.749 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id joMX_WbFBu9Z for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yw0-x229.google.com (mail-yw0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4002:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 734AA120326 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:41:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-yw0-x229.google.com with SMTP id v76so23403543ywg.0 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:41:17 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=1lltjCL2W5Gi/EIRoGVuS5pwRZEjj75AfmV9xJzGeb0=; b=jlMz+zHSPaOLDxpE/xL0nNAW4LvV8fXz4JiT28EYpKYI1RwsgF+u7za9gcqQR516xE NCfjfjsW3dVgpxKFtHetDlS7AB/HQ6m7OEoEJp4W8/ArFnqqLccHUlcZAPDah6tygKWB zfIR1Rkcn9TFMI85CP/Zs51ip/q6n+/rDDeX8K5oqF5REDQati6DaGiB0qH1z8H0RIx2 1JAYcERDyWso6ZR1kzdSYc3RB+eFZtvXVQfiJ0fMR184Zsh8vbOTAUzecIQQgBBaLcph NN0es3M4Qruyza3WCg9LL7xFkpU1EQ6LX4L3uQMgCgxsUqrNYsdwv6RkPwR82qJD/JlF nobQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=1lltjCL2W5Gi/EIRoGVuS5pwRZEjj75AfmV9xJzGeb0=; b=nVDEiAM6Q1+whhDbKIgDIgshPLdYCam2tShjvFywZEFaIeXZzZnvZ0MUt/8T45lncX NmTRW1BZ49dyAY4QIw0UrzHnzi0aCEswZOrmazNdcXDpPN2nDJj5WuPeiYh9TDVLix7y okYqXZlVaXH26fu9+FGW7LxYyZ9daSYsgDU/v8YNOqI22qzr8KRvhF/8AIgKkTnsHcZS siu4CAUVDHKGSmLV3j03CrWRQgK4e47JeSvHMtlcoE2znhJ3qOefTZsTPXGFnRw1KxdO XVXQ5yxLTi1xcowNTLLWRqZayogGk8i25Ry01Qih2UDTWoAxu2H9v6YKBSDMfzH8XDth TLfg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0ScdWyV5UXLFlyGIMFl9gp3KKhqa0AjO+iLMWyZrDsqt12TBBmWrI1q1eu66BeY2kcRaHiSSBspjKBCw== X-Received: by 10.129.74.130 with SMTP id x124mr2310939ywa.298.1490877676649; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 05:41:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <34A0BBC1-E9C9-4856-BBB5-F6A2B9F4C72F@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: From: Ca By Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:41:05 +0000 Message-ID: To: Mikael Abrahamsson , Philip Homburg Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114d82f8520394054bf202a5 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update-01 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:41:19 -0000 --001a114d82f8520394054bf202a5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 5:21 AM Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, Philip Homburg wrote: > > > A host would have to probe every time it connects to a network for local > > PMTU limitations. I wonder what the operational impact would be if every > > host would start sending maximum sized packets to some well known > > destination right after connecting to the network. > > Well, I advocate to send lower MTU than 1500 in RA if you know that the > upstream has lower than 1500 MTU. Otherwise you get a lot of useless PMTUD > traffic from clients. Doing bidirectional MSS clamping makes sense as > well, and I think some residential routers do this already. > Many, if not most, mobile providers do mss clamping. > -- > Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --001a114d82f8520394054bf202a5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 5:21 AM Mi= kael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2017, = Philip Homburg wrote:

> A host would have to probe every time it connects to a network for loc= al
> PMTU limitations. I wonder what the operational impact would be if eve= ry
> host would start sending maximum sized packets to some well known
> destination right after connecting to the network.

Well, I advocate to send lower MTU than 1500 in RA if you know that the
upstream has lower than 1500 MTU. Otherwise you get a lot of useless PMTUD<= br class=3D"gmail_msg"> traffic from clients. Doing bidirectional MSS clamping makes sense as
well, and I think some residential routers do this already.




--
Mikael Abrahamsson=C2=A0 =C2=A0 email: swmike@swm.pp.se

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6o= ps@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo= /v6ops
--001a114d82f8520394054bf202a5-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 06:11:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A5801294EE for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:11:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Pk39poV-AKu4 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x236.google.com (mail-io0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 619F51294C4 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:11:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x236.google.com with SMTP id b140so18571438iof.1 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:11:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=EiMvgyPWhHRlqfIBo4md7clA9z4y0YVOFhXAiyAON6A=; b=U7pYJX8YOnJjhKOwnLFPfX6fUK1UxaBD9sqIA1NYZp8YiRfHAvyp3Cw1Jf3pLyVYZv oB6k4+yQrvN6nJDIdBnyaaK6tq3A2wCgDXTl+CxCk/zQJbp1DzeoennvD41XhzBK8ZT6 B9U+ifI31xyOgKS89s89d3fZzGzAy2S0NKadWi0AI/RlcKqdv21lXwmTbu1IJxMWFfPY +546mwoXnBtmQaGXgU3pAlR8p84k2PtFmm4Z2y2jgniOB/YFhGnncrK/T+sGCJtVcYI8 DGUsci4jKLWhWveigoC95s1ITUS02ArQx8eZjYtke93FBMQV+IMNx7f/Ad8LruuBwLLc xqIA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=EiMvgyPWhHRlqfIBo4md7clA9z4y0YVOFhXAiyAON6A=; b=itBclZcLcxzaE4RDiK4qQtXKgAq3+Sy1dfoRML5QdRKxlmQk3q1YRzCF1DaRqcM3dx VqPZN8kedKKZFCfLqKAmQoTavPZhs6yfb5GDkcbe1Jo2onbhBkWJDEpyyf8J2VtWGahQ WqGgz9C8ldF1nekzDbD65SNvlC6jPD+AEDbjl/Bq52O0vY67di+mhukiyNvM8e0h8n5k XRZ2SDvYh7Pea7UxGF2SreXMPa0hha/s5+OamOTrDLb+ZrIXcBhGXkp/trpUzxW4Dxta WyrFqd0hj1lcdwl+d3YdfYK6B9yBfyUsQFDIB82rN84Xz4i3NM/BL/g4a6sY1/UqqZdZ naew== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H15Tm5dXpgpyCg48ervmgMIOpVspAyOioYfOklN9Hw1RtZjePo03FzML0ZBI56k1A== X-Received: by 10.107.134.94 with SMTP id i91mr364340iod.0.1490879461559; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.147.88] (dhcp-9358.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.147.88]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l5sm5003606ita.13.2017.03.30.06.11.00 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:11:01 -0700 (PDT) To: Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org Operations" References: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> <731DBBD1-3FE5-404B-8711-69AF434C35DB@thehobsons.co.uk> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 02:11:07 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <731DBBD1-3FE5-404B-8711-69AF434C35DB@thehobsons.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:11:06 -0000 On 30/03/2017 23:07, Simon Hobson wrote: > Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > >> But, if I understand you correctly, you mean that fe81::/ffc0:: (or fe81::/10 for that matter) is more an address and potentially a prefix, rather than simply a prefix. >> >> To clarify that, I think the suggestion from Simon Hobson called "lowest value that fits" to explain why fe80::/10 means a prefix whereas fe81::/10 means an address _and_ a prefix should be written down. > > > Exactly, if you apply the prefix mask to fe81::/10 then you get a prefix of fe80/10 and a host identifier part of 1:: which means the address isn't a network address but a host address within the subnet fe80::/10 > > AFAIK this is unchanged from IPv4 so it really shouldn't be a problem for anyone. Disagree. It isn't explained correctly in RFC4291 (or rfc4291bis) in a way that anybody can understand. And it seems very hard for a machine to understand unless it also understands the context. (Hence the next point.) Brian > "Lubashev, Igor" wrote: > >> The most proper way to interpret fe81::/10 is as an invalid address that falls within a range reserved for link-local addresses. See Verifier Notes for the rejection of Errata 4406 of FRC 4291 (https://www.rfc-editor.org/errata_search.php?rfc=4291&eid=4406). > > Ah, interesting. > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Thu Mar 30 06:37:14 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BCE83129401 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:37:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OefXCTeuYr2E for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x244.google.com (mail-it0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 58143127A97 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:37:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x244.google.com with SMTP id w11so5543403itb.0 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:37:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ft7bmrP7aDbxLFZkDaqksNyMAf2mOEemht0BIm1Eq9c=; b=LXIZQXGP/tgiNNt3fSdXereXt/Wp92uouRJ6RnmYo3ns0CEGklT/UV6F6b/WS6xldO OzFeEi7ZA9cX0QcjuIuuHRUVaIdcKJ0RmBOyDnxEMWAl9pm8dsreD8xQmP7jMk07jAFB ztqAAjmexkuI5WDbZ6s2o8U/invmhJCI/n3XEVZ4qPaed3YM5w8uqMDkVX4QZeXcxcmI z2MXc04YWKHT6zeCtzP35g/8G6Q2GTrtFFQqt9vQWpzJmqhcQ4weFlsObIFLyi6mL6oT wkL8fCZK/cZySApyLQ6Qrrgu0Z71Em/tuS1wqPr6LNVEYmTGP2ghe8qR1DdApCwLBwHX RrEg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ft7bmrP7aDbxLFZkDaqksNyMAf2mOEemht0BIm1Eq9c=; b=GI6D3PHtq7FEG1uR2lhRvkUcizdWdwW6llcClaTdPOjEtd6tGbmdXfWXw6E32eksxv vvPDZ9+IGwSu9JitiljdY4uPJQZPUIka8c0rkz690PaBotVIuKdA9E1eiyA+eSnTC1zE QuiyeRBIUiSDTOM/x4Qlrpj4IbJmPtd8SjEXT3+Rgce9tyCVhTFDFVVYOtYFDNqB1OnX 9H1rKYEn9zHtpy7Vhe14u9jbdIQDP+depFmUga6/Q3YwC8DuXrzYb/DUxPSSVgmvRrg6 6XDL7icm1tXbe1uPnRVldVWo/Q3j9uxAXr6/aGNSQd+wAYj/MedcihDxVakLT1dk+B6E mOyw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3WwfAJBwhG7QF0vMZyNpcQCadP1e+8yZXIfSX6ilRyiuJQcC0Y19Cp6eD1aYYjww== X-Received: by 10.36.73.85 with SMTP id z82mr424488ita.89.1490881029755; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.147.88] (dhcp-9358.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.147.88]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r85sm1362126itc.13.2017.03.30.06.37.09 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:37:09 -0700 (PDT) To: Lorenzo Colitti , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" References: From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 02:37:16 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:37:13 -0000 On 30/03/2017 12:08, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > Given the discussion today on draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration and > draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs , I'm wondering if we might find consensus to sa= y > that host and router implementations MUST implement RDNSS. I know what this means for hosts. For routers, what exactly does "impleme= nt" mean? Assuming the router code is capable of including RDNSS in RAs, doe= s it mean: 1. The code knows how to find the DNS server in order to construct the RA= =2E or 2. Somebody or something has to configure the router with the DNS server = address. ? That said, I support the idea. Brian =20 > The argument would be that: >=20 > - It provides a way of configuring DNS servers that will work on eve= ry > compliant implementation, resolving the interoperability problems no= ted > in draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration > - Nodes MUST already support SLAAC (RFC 6434 =C2=A75.9.2), and once = SLAAC is > implemented, adding support for RDNSS is fairly simple >=20 > This could be either in a v6ops BCP or in the update of the node > requirements that is being edited by Tim. >=20 > Thoughts? >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 From nobody Thu Mar 30 06:59:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A8770129401 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:59:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uJD1FMQkQgy1 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 934A81294D8 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 06:59:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from [192.168.1.55] (lan.furness.net [84.9.59.220]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 0D5F21BC37 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:59:23 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:59:00 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <61272D8A-FC55-4178-80C7-12CE06FE80E3@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> <731DBBD1-3FE5-404B-8711-69AF434C35DB@thehobsons.co.uk> To: "v6ops@ietf.org Operations" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:59:07 -0000 Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> Exactly, if you apply the prefix mask to fe81::/10 then you get a = prefix of fe80/10 and a host identifier part of 1:: which means the = address isn't a network address but a host address within the subnet = fe80::/10 >>=20 >> AFAIK this is unchanged from IPv4 so it really shouldn't be a problem = for anyone. >=20 > Disagree. It isn't explained correctly in RFC4291 (or rfc4291bis) in a = way that anybody > can understand. And it seems very hard for a machine to understand = unless it also > understands the context. (Hence the next point.) Are we discussing the same thing, or have I missed something obvious ? = I'm still really struggling to understand what the problem is - other = than an inconsistency between different places where "link local = address" is defined. Surely simple bitwise AND/OR operations are exactly the sort of things = that computers are very good at. Take address, AND with a mask comprised of ten 1s and 118 0s, if the = result =3D fe80 then it's in the link-local block. Take address, AND with a mask of ten 0s and 118 1s, if the result is = non-zero then it's a host identifier (address). Isn't this pretty well the same process as determining if an address is = within one of the provided on-link prefixes ? Take address, AND with = mask with prefix-length 1s and the rest 0s, if result =3D=3D the prefix = then the address is within that prefix, else it isn't. 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X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 13:59:46 -0000 PiBPbiAzMCBNYXIgMjAxNywgYXQgMTQ6MzcsIEJyaWFuIEUgQ2FycGVudGVyIDxicmlhbi5lLmNh cnBlbnRlckBnbWFpbC5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gT24gMzAvMDMvMjAxNyAxMjowOCwgTG9y ZW56byBDb2xpdHRpIHdyb3RlOg0KPj4gR2l2ZW4gdGhlIGRpc2N1c3Npb24gdG9kYXkgb24gZHJh ZnQtZ29udC12Nm9wcy1ob3N0LWNvbmZpZ3VyYXRpb24gYW5kDQo+PiBkcmFmdC1hbGktaXB2NnJ0 ci1yZXFzICwgSSdtIHdvbmRlcmluZyBpZiB3ZSBtaWdodCBmaW5kIGNvbnNlbnN1cyB0byBzYXkN Cj4+IHRoYXQgaG9zdCBhbmQgcm91dGVyIGltcGxlbWVudGF0aW9ucyBNVVNUIGltcGxlbWVudCBS RE5TUy4NCj4gDQo+IEkga25vdyB3aGF0IHRoaXMgbWVhbnMgZm9yIGhvc3RzLiBGb3Igcm91dGVy cywgd2hhdCBleGFjdGx5IGRvZXMgImltcGxlbWVudCINCj4gbWVhbj8gIEFzc3VtaW5nIHRoZSBy b3V0ZXIgY29kZSBpcyBjYXBhYmxlIG9mIGluY2x1ZGluZyBSRE5TUyBpbiBSQXMsIGRvZXMNCj4g aXQgbWVhbjoNCj4gDQo+IDEuIFRoZSBjb2RlIGtub3dzIGhvdyB0byBmaW5kIHRoZSBETlMgc2Vy dmVyIGluIG9yZGVyIHRvIGNvbnN0cnVjdCB0aGUgUkEuDQo+IG9yDQo+IDIuIFNvbWVib2R5IG9y IHNvbWV0aGluZyBoYXMgdG8gY29uZmlndXJlIHRoZSByb3V0ZXIgd2l0aCB0aGUgRE5TIHNlcnZl ciBhZGRyZXNzLg0KPiA/DQoNClNvIGFzIG9uZSBtZXRob2QgdGhlcmUgaXMgc29tZSB3b3JrIHN0 YXJ0aW5nIG9uIGFkZGluZyB0aGlzIGNhcGFiaWxpdHkgdG8gdGhlIG5ldGNvbmYgcm91dGluZyBz dWJtb2R1bGUgZnJvbSBSRkM4MDIyIChleHRlbmRpbmcgdGhlIHZhcmlhYmxlcyBkZWZpbmVkIGlu IHNlY3Rpb24gNS40KS4NCg0KVGltDQoNCj4gVGhhdCBzYWlkLCBJIHN1cHBvcnQgdGhlIGlkZWEu DQo+IA0KPiAgIEJyaWFuDQo+IA0KPj4gVGhlIGFyZ3VtZW50IHdvdWxkIGJlIHRoYXQ6DQo+PiAN Cj4+ICAgLSBJdCBwcm92aWRlcyBhIHdheSBvZiBjb25maWd1cmluZyBETlMgc2VydmVycyB0aGF0 IHdpbGwgd29yayBvbiBldmVyeQ0KPj4gICBjb21wbGlhbnQgaW1wbGVtZW50YXRpb24sIHJlc29s dmluZyB0aGUgaW50ZXJvcGVyYWJpbGl0eSBwcm9ibGVtcyBub3RlZA0KPj4gICBpbiBkcmFmdC1n b250LXY2b3BzLWhvc3QtY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbg0KPj4gICAtIE5vZGVzIE1VU1QgYWxyZWFkeSBz dXBwb3J0IFNMQUFDIChSRkMgNjQzNCDCpzUuOS4yKSwgYW5kIG9uY2UgU0xBQUMgaXMNCj4+ICAg aW1wbGVtZW50ZWQsIGFkZGluZyBzdXBwb3J0IGZvciBSRE5TUyBpcyBmYWlybHkgc2ltcGxlDQo+ PiANCj4+IFRoaXMgY291bGQgYmUgZWl0aGVyIGluIGEgdjZvcHMgQkNQIG9yIGluIHRoZSB1cGRh dGUgb2YgdGhlIG5vZGUNCj4+IHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cyB0aGF0IGlzIGJlaW5nIGVkaXRlZCBieSBU aW0uDQo+PiANCj4+IFRob3VnaHRzPw0KPj4gDQo+PiANCj4+IA0KPj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4+IHY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0K Pj4gdjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vdjZvcHMNCj4+IA0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gdjZvcHMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IHY2b3BzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0 dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdjZvcHMNCg0K From nobody Thu Mar 30 07:22:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5F68812952E for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:22:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 1.509 X-Spam-Level: * X-Spam-Status: No, score=1.509 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_ONLY_28=1.404, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_02=0.437, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oFTTxfJJsNsU for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3968E126C26 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:22:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2UEMgT3004271 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:22:42 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 8F359208EF1 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:22:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 85BFD208EEF for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:22:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.85.9] ([132.166.85.9]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2UEMe9D020702 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:22:41 +0200 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <34914036-eb1b-5913-5963-e72811f9c087@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:22:25 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------E7FC3D4CC31C7866D92EBB62" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food - IPv6 RTT vs IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:22:46 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------E7FC3D4CC31C7866D92EBB62 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID: - on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, than on IPv4. RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net, averages 150ms; whereas RTT for 8.8.8.8, or for (ipv4) www.kame.net averages 40ms. That's maybe three times faster on IPv4. Alex Le 30/03/2017 06:23, Nick Hilliard a crit : > No comment is necessary here: > > https://twitter.com/jaredmauch/status/847227063467560961 > > Nick > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --------------E7FC3D4CC31C7866D92EBB62 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------BD2BC17F4829CF0E25C7CCD3" --------------BD2BC17F4829CF0E25C7CCD3 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID:

- on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, than on IPv4.

RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net, averages 150ms; whereas RTT for 8.8.8.8, or for (ipv4) www.kame.net averages 40ms. That's maybe three times faster on IPv4.





Alex


Le 30/03/2017 06:23, Nick Hilliard a crit:


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v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

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bh=o1GOgXwR1R4Cs60mKO1dU5O4gP+We+gMJ+Ql0U0WAkU=; b=TrP8hgt8k6yDHlr+2Fme3vXNTD0Vn9tigJjXyspUR2dFGo0xGwxKS0wVtZIpd9oyYO MMLWe033rPI+Emgh9aeflo8EdDkdcXxZv1+hVmvFb/OdtqiHluopq9gMGR3irBVoYZml +s69d4c+UW6nt7NfR3PU+o7Yj0iAwk6KOvDWz7BOGOMFy0N8zC1DqxUGqIyyt+wLtht4 VLh7DdTY6vfVWxQwlwkdOFtDJHS4XLyo9GLmOeZFcDanoNDFxpKGYiLbzeVZY9oCRmjs RFCLKS13KB1v0ojHvESRQA80AeuzE/xQW9wDke/Qli0XLUZNJB6KzcYfOlnwZqNPtOJo vEOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3NfCvNRFkwDkVcqfn5vRhfBALw/u1LcgQYVDHblAs/LtMrp8HM/pCj0/822e2S79sJHUrUVcNN7rNDwQ== X-Received: by 10.237.36.172 with SMTP id t41mr64830qtc.142.1490884573707; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:36:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.12.172.143 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.12.172.143 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:36:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <34914036-eb1b-5913-5963-e72811f9c087@gmail.com> References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <34914036-eb1b-5913-5963-e72811f9c087@gmail.com> From: Nabil Benamar Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:36:12 +0100 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: v6ops list Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary=001a113f38646b3d9d054bf39d0c Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food - IPv6 RTT vs IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:36:17 -0000 --001a113f38646b3d9d054bf39d0c Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113f38646b3d9b054bf39d0b --001a113f38646b3d9b054bf39d0b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Alex, The average values I can read from the capture screen are different from what you mentioned! ! IPv6 is faster. Best regards Nabil On Mar 30, 2017 15:23, "Alexandre Petrescu" wrote: > pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID: > > - on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, than on IPv4. > > RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net, averages 150ms; > whereas RTT for 8.8.8.8, or for (ipv4) www.kame.net averages 40ms. > That's maybe three times faster on IPv4. > > > > > > Alex > > Le 30/03/2017 =C3=A0 06:23, Nick Hilliard a =C3=A9crit : > > No comment is necessary here: > > https://twitter.com/jaredmauch/status/847227063467560961 > > Nick > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing listv6ops@ietf.orghttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6o= ps > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > --001a113f38646b3d9b054bf39d0b Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Alex,

The av= erage values I can read from the =C2=A0capture screen are different from wh= at you mentioned! !
IPv6 is faster.

Best regards
Nabil

= =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0

On Mar 30, 2017 15:23, "Alexandre Petrescu" &= lt;alexandre.petrescu@gmail= .com> wrote:
=20 =20 =20

pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID:

- on IPv6 there seems t= o be longer RTT for a same service, than on IPv4.

RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.ka= me.net, averages 150ms; whereas RTT for 8.8.8.8, or for (ipv4) www.kame.net averages 40ms.=C2=A0 That's maybe three times faster on IPv4.


3D""


3D""


Alex


Le 30/03/2017 =C3=A0= 06:23, Nick Hilliard a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
=20 

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(amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oB4l6oK44JsD for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x232.google.com (mail-it0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4F4C1124C27 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x232.google.com with SMTP id 190so75635567itm.0 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:37:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DDqv5mXJs7+WVevL+h92u3z9kK4F44rTa+jfQiZphUM=; b=qe8Y8u6tMmE3h+qu9b8awLNc+tmLkfXNNEL3kNqh8YT3RW6Jmj1LUq9ahF+HisD2bg 4lLC53EAvPTq1VsJRYw3CzfhAMeHwgvoxmxX2rBVSYjdT9olmg/uFR81Rl0VyWuYD6qz /kxfmbnoc0/TOU+ffPoo+MkaKJMDc3sTMg7NqAx3T+FMoaUbyoagW9m4oySAe0Xy45iq 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?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? (t2001067c0370012828ccdc4c97036781.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y21sm1439204ioi.0.2017.03.30.07.37.40 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:37:41 -0700 (PDT) To: Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org Operations" References: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> <731DBBD1-3FE5-404B-8711-69AF434C35DB@thehobsons.co.uk> <61272D8A-FC55-4178-80C7-12CE06FE80E3@thehobsons.co.uk> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <09989c7b-7348-ef43-87b1-b50c812c2b61@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 03:37:48 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <61272D8A-FC55-4178-80C7-12CE06FE80E3@thehobsons.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:37:44 -0000 On 31/03/2017 02:59, Simon Hobson wrote: > Brian E Carpenter wrote: > >>> Exactly, if you apply the prefix mask to fe81::/10 then you get a prefix of fe80/10 and a host identifier part of 1:: which means the address isn't a network address but a host address within the subnet fe80::/10 >>> >>> AFAIK this is unchanged from IPv4 so it really shouldn't be a problem for anyone. >> >> Disagree. It isn't explained correctly in RFC4291 (or rfc4291bis) in a way that anybody >> can understand. And it seems very hard for a machine to understand unless it also >> understands the context. (Hence the next point.) > > Are we discussing the same thing, or have I missed something obvious ? I'm still really struggling to understand what the problem is - other than an inconsistency between different places where "link local address" is defined. > > Surely simple bitwise AND/OR operations are exactly the sort of things that computers are very good at. > > Take address, AND with a mask comprised of ten 1s and 118 0s, if the result = fe80 then it's in the link-local block. > Take address, AND with a mask of ten 0s and 118 1s, if the result is non-zero then it's a host identifier (address). > > Isn't this pretty well the same process as determining if an address is within one of the provided on-link prefixes ? Take address, AND with mask with prefix-length 1s and the rest 0s, if result == the prefix then the address is within that prefix, else it isn't. Yes, it's parsable. But it's very error prone when humans are in the loop. It's badly explained in the addressing architecture and not explained at all in RFC5952. And the interpretation is context-dependent. Is fd63:45eb:dc15::/64 the address fd63:45eb:dc15:: (which happens to have an IID == 0) qualified with a /64 prefix, or the prefix fd63:45eb:dc15::/64 ? Brian From nobody Thu Mar 30 07:39:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2BBC212706D for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:39:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: 0.224 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.224 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_04=0.556, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XgNbYuDL9Kv5 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:39:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 18BD2124BE8 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:39:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2UEdERx181500; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:39:14 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 9D10A208F0C; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:39:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2EA208EFF; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:39:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.85.9] ([132.166.85.9]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2UEdDAJ003770; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:39:13 +0200 To: Nabil Benamar References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <34914036-eb1b-5913-5963-e72811f9c087@gmail.com> Cc: v6ops list From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <757f76e0-2757-bbed-f465-d2773fba5345@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:38:58 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------B3D6F2147E36F46433EB75CB" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food - IPv6 RTT vs IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:39:25 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------B3D6F2147E36F46433EB75CB Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Ah yes sorry! My reading mistake, I retract that. Le 30/03/2017 à 09:36, Nabil Benamar a écrit : > Alex, > > The average values I can read from the capture screen are different > from what you mentioned! ! > IPv6 is faster. > > Best regards > Nabil > > > On Mar 30, 2017 15:23, "Alexandre Petrescu" > > > wrote: > > pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID: > > - on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, than on > IPv4. > > RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net > , averages 150ms; whereas RTT for 8.8.8.8, or > for (ipv4) www.kame.net averages 40ms. > That's maybe three times faster on IPv4. > > > > > > Alex > > > Le 30/03/2017 à 06:23, Nick Hilliard a écrit : >> No comment is necessary here: >> >> https://twitter.com/jaredmauch/status/847227063467560961 >> >> >> Nick >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > --------------B3D6F2147E36F46433EB75CB Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------48A3ACBA9EF77EA37EF4FE63" --------------48A3ACBA9EF77EA37EF4FE63 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Ah yes sorry!  My reading mistake, I retract that.


Le 30/03/2017 à 09:36, Nabil Benamar a écrit :
Alex,

The average values I can read from the  capture screen are different from what you mentioned! !
IPv6 is faster.

Best regards
Nabil

   

On Mar 30, 2017 15:23, "Alexandre Petrescu" <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID:

- on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, than on IPv4.

RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net, averages 150ms; whereas RTT for 8.8.8.8, or for (ipv4) www.kame.net averages 40ms.  That's maybe three times faster on IPv4.





Alex


Le 30/03/2017 à 06:23, Nick Hilliard a écrit :


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[2001:67c:370:1998:61d1:a9fa:7f01:1c21]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i195sm5124672ita.17.2017.03.30.07.56.38 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 07:56:38 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <222478AE-7AD7-4022-938E-59D3FC8F1268@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3FC5D78C-4E2D-4773-A42F-346467F6B2E4" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:56:37 -0500 In-Reply-To: Cc: Philip Homburg , v6ops@ietf.org To: Mikael Abrahamsson References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <20170330113232.GD98455@ernw.de> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:56:45 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3FC5D78C-4E2D-4773-A42F-346467F6B2E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mar 30, 2017, at 6:58 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson = wrote: > Most people at the IETF meeting show up and their devices connect to = some network that is in the connection table. If they've been to an IETF = before, it's likely they have one or several networks in there and "it = just works" and they never check what SSID they're connected to. Yup. I had to figure out how to enable ietf-nat64 because of the = non-PKI cert. I did so, ironically, after I noticed that there were = only 13 hosts on ietf-nat64, which I noticed because I saw the person = taking this picture. I would prefer that the default ietf ssid were IPv6-only with NAT64 for = legacy service. If people want IPv4, they should switch to = ietf-legacy. And if we really want this data to be meaningful, we = should change the name of ietf-legacy every IETF so that people have to = choose it to get it. :) --Apple-Mail=_3FC5D78C-4E2D-4773-A42F-346467F6B2E4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Mar 30, 2017, at 6:58 AM, Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> = wrote:
Most people at the = IETF meeting show up and their devices connect to some network that is = in the connection table. If they've been to an IETF before, it's likely = they have one or several networks in there and "it just works" and they = never check what SSID they're connected to.

Yup. =   I had to figure out how to enable ietf-nat64 because of the = non-PKI cert.   I did so, ironically, after I noticed that there = were only 13 hosts on ietf-nat64, which I noticed because I saw the = person taking this picture.

I would prefer that the default ietf ssid were IPv6-only = with NAT64 for legacy service.   If people want IPv4, they should = switch to ietf-legacy.   And if we really want this data to be = meaningful, we should change the name of ietf-legacy every IETF so that = people have to choose it to get it.

:)

= --Apple-Mail=_3FC5D78C-4E2D-4773-A42F-346467F6B2E4-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 08:02:28 2017 Return-Path: <7riw77@gmail.com> X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A2AB120726 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:02:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1RVHIita8Dfh for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:02:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x244.google.com (mail-it0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 72CC8129474 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:02:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x244.google.com with SMTP id w11so5803621itb.0 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:02:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:thread-index:content-language; bh=UoGGfcpoqog6pdIBulwq2R629gZ8m14BZZcNUtwhbPQ=; b=b1Jkt3FePBqERdvX+4riHsfAEhuQic6s5J0R6uhhb2Z/uuwPqbN/G7ysED8+uWLBiz pLb1/GFbzbzyFnZkWoclA536rhPE6ic0xBDx0OJwXCddZc3cTTDmELsM+cjv38uGub/D 3mhxZe0M+/+KlOp19oHPrb5KG/LiGmmy8MwOqG8BQFWz8/kFEWIRQW4OcInDSJbHeXov nMoWezj198KgU+LNjpxbmlKHpp+F3p/Qj0XiobAYux1Q+NIqVJ1GAY1swRx+qObV7O4z gni2BoTQCA6X/PfanQPrCJ/8ARPen/U76u+KFN3boPOCMw6rf9fqYLXYu2Dzjg0RxbXu A+PQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=UoGGfcpoqog6pdIBulwq2R629gZ8m14BZZcNUtwhbPQ=; b=E4Zu6Q9YtkqsvDn6B/F9uGKYONoL2Q6H+bHw1SVp2FFWyEEqsqAuBPhC9++EncH4gW b7uex1BNt0ER0oVXDG+YEhL/5S5TRkFi6jXofS1at5kCHjZYzAfvpd0gC89DueKKqAeq WPbVVmq/HQ7gW9kcnvL50P4NkUZ4Fh2ijZhY3SYKEEJgYQyJLn/egXf3vXPigCHTf4cd AVGvGHmOJ+rF2mGdDw7f+Ruz5yqxPaAL4BywxNZd943fEAzgHMMSTv1Fz0evcuYPBfS1 Y1vYnnCwdcUT+uQOGgEEq1EmB6rL2iRAuA/6AUzZhpGSUPyjESIzaygL2a1TyAxkRUDz 4gaw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0DmLeiPQok7RB0VnNVHdhHEsQOZjhumumQkXuIuxyet1CeAkDg6olPiF2uFq48NQ== X-Received: by 10.36.218.130 with SMTP id z124mr4670727itg.64.1490886142888; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Russ (t2001067c03700128d8c3a8e349d791da.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:d8c3:a8e3:49d7:91da]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e20sm979400itc.3.2017.03.30.08.02.22 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:02:22 -0700 (PDT) From: "Russ White" <7riw77@gmail.com> To: "'Tim Chown'" , References: <5876AEA7-156B-4F2D-BC01-6FA6734CC399@jisc.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <5876AEA7-156B-4F2D-BC01-6FA6734CC399@jisc.ac.uk> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:02:19 -0500 Message-ID: <015801d2a966$a132e030$e398a090$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIBx7pjHgGn6z7rZFDILdbWxaWfqKFPPbIw Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Small nit on draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-02 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:02:27 -0000 > RFC1191 support can be removed as I think that=E2=80=99s = IPv4-specific; just leave > RFC1981 in. Thanks! -- will change in the next version. =F0=9F=98=8A Russ From nobody Thu Mar 30 08:03:39 2017 Return-Path: <7riw77@gmail.com> X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 38DA11296C0; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:03:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uPPEiMtc5yDl; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x243.google.com (mail-it0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 57D76129474; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:03:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x243.google.com with SMTP id e75so13336697itd.1; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:03:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=cYJ4qKP+6mAu0AQp/I+WlNPpbHRRS3IoXfYLMapdYIY=; b=jei4MqZk1nYogAQAX6QkdbMCqQTEoeD3hg9Wsc1MbY/jRnKUfF1A0WwXOywcmbJJwx 38pqCd3IK0FGtp1GuEqJt1vhHN8xtOc/qxuy/hjh1CskDepD//U+Af5jzf17tdvSZ+/h E6pAqKD6UFkGjRnamHR2nVuE15W96Xyu6xSt5C2Vi/kZpMIjH3upgY3fDXj+AF0AQCdH CEvh4aKev02sx56BxK8gRYfHyKv+Dj4u2iO+kK9UB1ZFRvj+gWK+umJIamYZ3bDB+j5D Res+CG6cvPCEaNrk4h1QJ0TssGtOofJhoWrZSn6VkMVsvTJMRYdNC4SEQdVxEysau+gS SbVg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=cYJ4qKP+6mAu0AQp/I+WlNPpbHRRS3IoXfYLMapdYIY=; b=DvZucq7GPRELNFANteYMVRA3PVhim9A3H0R1sKkUYs9t7p/+/0w1uuIuI2UPQCc+Q7 khHOBPh53PiHxP/juGr9zUKSChatKTHS2TH0ztFCgSkW3/2f3wIPf2gW5nOaGL5miV8t DTU7rMSgcQ5ENJta8QxGxGH6TRYi5Txey7jP1oRsEikN6iKJEzzBji6tOAnkhzgT8mhv vxmYYt8MK1d9Wp/5dXexyMAXPbL1PMM7PuRl0WLns+bOiyYVMy4er5+qaV0xy1b3bI0K KbnLBGy8ExRJ7R6hwnxN8Z8e0Ix8Z6B49yZJbHZ9/TESJB7shn6UnPxSTsSZq7XvJSF9 jC1A== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3U8i7v/6Sg78PLvuKhbgssfWSdjhqr3sMelr238RbHp03aUHv3d0SbjjUynOoV6w== X-Received: by 10.36.70.210 with SMTP id j201mr838722itb.109.1490886210564; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:03:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Russ (t2001067c03700128d8c3a8e349d791da.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:d8c3:a8e3:49d7:91da]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n184sm2174488itn.25.2017.03.30.08.03.30 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:03:30 -0700 (PDT) From: "Russ White" <7riw77@gmail.com> To: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , "'IPv6 Operations'" Cc: References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:03:27 -0500 Message-ID: <015901d2a966$c987bc40$5c9734c0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIvwLkGQHtbrfw+8zhF2Mdp1ohEkqDzTARQ Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:03:35 -0000 > The primary reference for SLAAC is RFC4862. >=20 > Also, I'd like to plug RFC8028. This prepares the way for SADR and = effective > multiprefix multihoming, so it would be good to cover it. > The impact is small: a router SHOULD be able to send a PIO with L and = A both > set to zero, as explained in > https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8028#section-2.1 Thanks for these -- I'll include these in the next version. =F0=9F=98=8A Russ From nobody Thu Mar 30 08:05:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 58A1912950B for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:05:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G39BpC3GnLm9 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x229.google.com (mail-it0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B5051294C0 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x229.google.com with SMTP id y18so174113917itc.0 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:05:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=CbE1L2IUFapbGimUWv7x6Om/E9wfT+roC5YGNSl/Mcc=; b=mvSPQ9VDAP+7ckk8bUvFK431V1/oK+tgkxODShrVO8zDU3G5BXmfntGroS/C9aeBV/ BpweiNr4fRIPVatWO5p/5MHlzKWdNx0I+pNErP6wSd+JvD2BGGwikc3DsmX8b5v89OO9 JzQPQSOHzuTBWtn3wcqbVvcO4rN7GwuWusIvoOvXqJ5a/J7xK8fWBAnRuCmfxaLfRh+b rlEdzjAYJ8hNALY6ftKb2oSU+Guw454D8aL/XIJ7/vfCgz7lwMznGcgJupaND5GTgBda jG/llGDHBwHlDLK6DsIuXhijwjoWCzbPvWg2d5uSWuIcUQPIVIPd+Rc0MRzRLVTTGuHr d0Gg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=CbE1L2IUFapbGimUWv7x6Om/E9wfT+roC5YGNSl/Mcc=; b=gQTgdM+TIC6Y6yIikChzPNFGwSZ1wiCyj8AeGKbw5AOrLibiM78fUnYqE5OCn3uJvj 1rc020gB0xunDtlS5X9gv8yYHGAZ0SeRf107jT1Lff1QarCrInev/9nW1mAWmjn0pnOl dBx8PuJXVZ1kwfQrgdDz8ejCdqMDBhi57SQRr9YAEnOqApZyqeXkbKcVMFhN00uPXNAh LFEclJk9wvRPEDxHFmNSCCueobeKKFTaT8Htz24xF22NpU4ct4rBYnUnsGUqpIxqgWuu /1SeVEuUGsmpV5mWws63F3EJHqK3zV2G0OCxcIGCfwiCwkDaS6h55PlaeOlwuf53RbFX QDqA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3peIRfXSraj6JZqkk6seBmhX3Wm+2quB7brFmpu+MgJIkaDk6uZtRFeYzxnwZSqA== X-Received: by 10.36.69.234 with SMTP id c103mr989506itd.78.1490886322870; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:05:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from t2001067c0370199861d1a9fa7f011c21.v6.meeting.ietf.org (t2001067c0370199861d1a9fa7f011c21.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:1998:61d1:a9fa:7f01:1c21]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l129sm1323429ite.1.2017.03.30.08.05.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:05:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_12204585-4B33-47AD-A052-E6E6C3B8D796" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:05:21 -0500 In-Reply-To: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> Cc: Lorenzo Colitti , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" To: Brian E Carpenter References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:05:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_12204585-4B33-47AD-A052-E6E6C3B8D796 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mar 30, 2017, at 8:37 AM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: > 1. The code knows how to find the DNS server in order to construct the = RA. > or > 2. Somebody or something has to configure the router with the DNS = server address. > ? This probably depends on the router. For CE routers, the router might = advertise itself as the DNS recursive resolver, and use the resolver it = got from DHCP PD as _its_ recursive resolver. For infrastructure = routers, either it has to be configured automatically using DHCP, or = automatically using a provisioning system, or manually. I think that's = too painful for us to specify, but we can certainly specify how CE = routers behave. --Apple-Mail=_12204585-4B33-47AD-A052-E6E6C3B8D796 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Mar 30, 2017, at 8:37 AM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
1. The code knows how to find the DNS = server in order to construct the RA.
or
2. Somebody or something has to configure the = router with the DNS server address.
?

This probably depends on the router.   For CE routers, = the router might advertise itself as the DNS recursive resolver, and use = the resolver it got from DHCP PD as _its_ recursive resolver.   For = infrastructure routers, either it has to be configured automatically = using DHCP, or automatically using a provisioning system, or manually. =   I think that's too painful for us to specify, but we can = certainly specify how CE routers behave.

= --Apple-Mail=_12204585-4B33-47AD-A052-E6E6C3B8D796-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 08:11:42 2017 Return-Path: <7riw77@gmail.com> X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B3EE61296C2 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:11:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H8H9qYe4y4r2 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:11:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x243.google.com (mail-io0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8B8551296C8 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:11:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x243.google.com with SMTP id n76so3168742ioe.1 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:11:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:thread-index:content-language; bh=x2/55zHCoFZd7TrQNqkqGF2QxinX/MQLggHpRIo+1W0=; b=PRu5ZU4NhOenLhDpkP7jVIzPoG28Vny76kjMYr8hoS0KWrQlU8UWSt29hZjFD8yyS+ dDOcjAC5NMrYDDT/1get3pdJgrAEKRyzy6UA1VMRIDKB1/kmcqwkMvnw/PdHozUyrEyT TbITrVcWzuWW4dhos405SmxFNNJ5c+td2HILBHLqHETXFdfUdw1JRw8M8LZ+2HeOD7vF GKGJI34EOmdOINpuTuKWR2p/3O50HnnMfM20mse8I6ue1PrMcK4MPpKDIkQ5F64wIHFu F5/cFrtVBdVX5NiISXNfCATbaoTj4q4sFmXRdNUVcHufoiBMJtUKOSfLTIannGtCiXrk CHxA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=x2/55zHCoFZd7TrQNqkqGF2QxinX/MQLggHpRIo+1W0=; b=YhJAu44482fiWj8tSTzJlCy9FMokeKZ0pzUVpmpxz84prpQuj+uvIarOCJJeUtkm+k 6ZnGuslbv5ir0hEgglDpNajSRN1c4d3gadW1+umGCzMOep7eQGKM95+1LB688SVRrw0m Ubf2ePqyirLBPWOo01D/5H7Pb6vtCKNQRjWC3dV+7XZFjtXIevmi9e2cmZ1y1okHQfkl 6KOegvkws05vMbfsAkkpOI6ilseyl60IIUQ4q602KsThFiFFY4TzG5t4iSDrIvSrCR2x QUkz2YvtLSR4r0jn01oaSXwsyDiSJXshsp8S/HQ9mtpwgo4rJeWSeytPLCxtHAMVLXHv X8BA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1afsRhAHQVAiGF/YFxNrH9ojojAyiirm2wCKhtesdQ4Z8DDJovrxWk32NSeKPCIA== X-Received: by 10.107.37.12 with SMTP id l12mr905452iol.159.1490886687843; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:11:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Russ (t2001067c03700128d8c3a8e349d791da.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:d8c3:a8e3:49d7:91da]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id g23sm1475156ioi.20.2017.03.30.08.11.27 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:11:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Russ White" <7riw77@gmail.com> To: "'Tim Chown'" , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:11:24 -0500 Message-ID: <01e701d2a967$e6021ef0$b2065cd0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQIGctAmlWT++I/vNL4JCQQ+NjhL/qFF6YGg Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-02 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:11:40 -0000 > Overall, a very nicely written document. The intro sections are = particularly > good to read. Thanks! > I suggest adding sections in the draft on: > a) MLDv2 - personally I=E2=80=99d like to see a MUST for MLDv2 support > b) RFC8106 support - make RDNSS option support in RAs a MUST I will take a look at these -- I think they would be good to add, just = have to scare up some text around them. > And also review the wording on SLAAC in Section 3.3. > a) Change SLAAC being enabled by default from a SHOULD to a MUST This is mostly a result of my not knowing what to do here, so I went = with the "gentler" requirement. I'm happier with MUST here if the = community agrees. > b) Probably good to distinguish SLAAC for LLs and SLAAC for globals; = RFC6434 > says routers MUST be able to generate LL addresses; the draft = currently only > says SHOULD; I=E2=80=99d make that a MUST. Okay. > c) RFC4862 says DAD is a MUST, in the draft it=E2=80=99s currently = only a SHOULD; is > there a reason for it not to be a MUST? Nope -- again, I'm just sometimes overcautious. I can change this to a = MUST. > The only significant =E2=80=9Cclash=E2=80=9D with RFC6434-bis (which = is in 6net tomorrow) is > the section 3 text; the rest syncs pretty well as it is, which is good = news. I'll take a look at this to see where we might clash, and try to get = those bits worked out. =F0=9F=98=8A /r From nobody Thu Mar 30 08:18:03 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D468129512 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:18:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id orn3sO1KLELv for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDB5E127419 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:17:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local ([194.88.241.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v2UFHqLx026765 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:17:53 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host [194.88.241.232] claimed to be cupcake.local Message-ID: <58DD21A0.2060604@foobar.org> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:17:52 +0100 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.12 (Macintosh/20170323) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon CC: Mikael Abrahamsson , v6ops@ietf.org References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <20170330113232.GD98455@ernw.de> <222478AE-7AD7-4022-938E-59D3FC8F1268@fugue.com> In-Reply-To: <222478AE-7AD7-4022-938E-59D3FC8F1268@fugue.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:18:02 -0000 Ted Lemon wrote: > I would prefer that the default ietf ssid were IPv6-only with NAT64 for > legacy service. If people want IPv4, they should switch to > ietf-legacy. And if we really want this data to be meaningful, we > should change the name of ietf-legacy every IETF so that people have to > choose it to get it. I'd be pleased if this were done at meetings that I regularly attend. Nick From nobody Thu Mar 30 08:22:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B03DE129631 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:22:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id medbBxu3IjwP for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:22:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 609AD127419 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:22:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from [192.168.1.55] (lan.furness.net [84.9.59.220]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 405021BC37 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:22:43 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:22:21 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <8F862BC8-A96C-416E-93F2-EA6AA8A82140@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:22:30 -0000 Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 30, 2017, at 8:37 AM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >> 1. The code knows how to find the DNS server in order to construct = the RA. >> or >> 2. Somebody or something has to configure the router with the DNS = server address. >> ? >=20 > This probably depends on the router. For CE routers, the router = might advertise itself as the DNS recursive resolver, and use the = resolver it got from DHCP PD as _its_ recursive resolver. For = infrastructure routers, either it has to be configured automatically = using DHCP, or automatically using a provisioning system, or manually. = I think that's too painful for us to specify, but we can certainly = specify how CE routers behave. It seems obvious (to me at least) that it should just be specified that = it must be provided. By all means offer *suggestions* as to various ways = the information may be obtained by the router, but that is not really = relevant. ie specify the "what", not the "how". From nobody Thu Mar 30 08:23:09 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CC58F1296C2 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:23:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FHPnVOLwtpAO for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x242.google.com (mail-it0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1E7171296DA for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:23:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x242.google.com with SMTP id y18so13355806itc.2 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:23:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=NP39IdI2YlQnpwYmdoA4Nv47EE6/yG7eHoNxdt0BopI=; b=twxY89ODNzzGOPb1BBxg+8Vk0yxzP1rrRAzO5zi0/sjAeuyLsPRqTwcJnCcI5GM467 bxaCQdpKOJ2GLPQ90UqZZw1N/V7SY+68QOSmX8UYv5xyP9FXsFxDq+Ui7Eq1hePkJiiv I4TkspsL7llUDQMkrR0JPB8B5eW/Dyxreb3hvSoIBIbFn4jbtD/qtAGcNyfu5dn7jPs6 VB3lDRkq/ml1quZlpbWlI5qTOjHlIULXNTGShbooViRX+YF4Xl1kbMU/Z7HyI6iRlghu J6GxYuycit1lXy/z/xRoRFzeLNzEesXIM1rkLHJMBMNiBReGrArjkq4aghYPGc98KOLF x9bg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=NP39IdI2YlQnpwYmdoA4Nv47EE6/yG7eHoNxdt0BopI=; b=V5BuxK+BqNLxofHSwJxOqoKyX21a+oTQ8R7kOgLzD1vdOrz4JTq2JMqbXj5TTKKstK rPlSwKktDQ7U3KaGx8X8OMxfeNsYv7ULXn9wZDyx316t9PqnUh7+KcN/98gRCNoqT9Tz LJQ1yNTttydQA5rOSnTrdmUL/Omq+i7ot21TSH51WrVtWBhzZuKtcayTNMALoi0oHscL FJ3z5vT7eLdabJ5EEHRsgC6YebhkYin7GnvWTpXifXEG9DNhz4OeRHGVzhCPY7JZdJK8 i6JUOH2dag5/YW5ZKoPlYRrKggBH2ML2G7GHAOevQI1EFTNNyiqU/C2ceRTCIeoUSRyd mE2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H03vzgOG4LqeagqaO+cLE4jlDke1Sbgc9iQCzPtzOYzX+LWAtzGu9G+gI6OPnvGUw== X-Received: by 10.36.121.129 with SMTP id z123mr1129202itc.16.1490887385360; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:23:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? (t2001067c0370012828ccdc4c97036781.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 17sm1479587ioq.45.2017.03.30.08.23.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:23:04 -0700 (PDT) To: Ted Lemon References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> Cc: Lorenzo Colitti , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:23:12 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:23:08 -0000 On 31/03/2017 04:05, Ted Lemon wrote: > On Mar 30, 2017, at 8:37 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> 1. The code knows how to find the DNS server in order to construct the RA. >> or >> 2. Somebody or something has to configure the router with the DNS server address. >> ? > > This probably depends on the router. For CE routers, the router might advertise itself as the DNS recursive resolver, and use the resolver it got from DHCP PD as _its_ recursive resolver. For infrastructure routers, either it has to be configured automatically using DHCP, or automatically using a provisioning system, or manually. I think that's too painful for us to specify, but we can certainly specify how CE routers behave. Agreed. I just want the semantics of the word 'implement' to be crystal clear. Something like MUST have the capability to send RAs with RDNSS, and MUST have a mechanism for discovering or configuring the appropriate DNS server address. Brian From nobody Thu Mar 30 08:28:05 2017 Return-Path: <7riw77@gmail.com> X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A3C61296D6 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:28:04 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PuU4n5AJlPM7 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x229.google.com (mail-it0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CC092129406 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x229.google.com with SMTP id y18so78402857itc.1 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:28:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:thread-index:content-language; bh=tRtfXH0Vp2yRVYo6bgp1FBlAJOQmsYbWW8fD4BLy51I=; b=K4KnOeGL7L4AjMwoB5q+qa/17zUOGVjIgIjt+kk3ILHg8sZWUDAJcV9oX7uswzEJl0 TrbvKR9aPilQ9CWWWP3cRWcnJ78ZfyVw5PrBxbBlVP3HCrmeMR8Qx+ESueagSvfeawd/ aMV5ZxzUvmT/dcbBopYLi8qPxewN65Bh81qKQsqk35/ZtlGIMyPDnEXUwiYB8WOxeMeo JpT8xS7lam91yMx6PQ3YvsDNLjSKbGkEk/gxzOabk4L+XQQkTZ1cZI7k0PtrWvDqX1Qw skqc6EoIvdQNeAInfOQrcxYLpSXh4GH0GRvdkGoPk2kZCB23Bws9wde1QdjErwGARB3S JnnQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=tRtfXH0Vp2yRVYo6bgp1FBlAJOQmsYbWW8fD4BLy51I=; b=j9lZqfLYf4OuSRjtH5EZ6iaHxjodZHqw9S5fURAAdb7pubTZHYE7Qrk8ZUlMs1hcOq nx/NT0R2LCPXaPYr9xY5V3Hso4b98bAzC1TOEUQwIjT4I62ImdKaF6PJOaAxYMj1r0VQ IddLqVqMG98Ct9Sovz+hd9fzSnZuERpt7LNVcL+VKhFHIpTExaSfEAIQf2Up4tsPfJ0A hsOiLraQMbwL8t2/tr7jf4N6USXfnDKtuoK8Bv9Izl5d9J09ejB96p1xkAAautyYyh/p QQmnGgjZvVPALbapfwtbvAJbpKv2hbe6RaurMALms11H6ICoQ3WhxLo4nnuGR4809VUU RLyg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2hdEoAlzgGbAeFQnuwvxeAiQaotEgj7NZBxhUEW2lNMoe2U4mZz9xEhd4M2+vXzA== X-Received: by 10.36.210.134 with SMTP id z128mr5004742itf.23.1490887680303; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:28:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Russ (t2001067c03700128d8c3a8e349d791da.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:d8c3:a8e3:49d7:91da]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a184sm1479085ioe.62.2017.03.30.08.27.59 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:27:59 -0700 (PDT) From: "Russ White" <7riw77@gmail.com> To: "'Fred Baker'" , "'v6ops list'" References: <6C1E351B-F8B6-4BC2-890D-993A1F081226@gmail.com> <95E46CE5-F904-483B-9952-BB38A76B7BCB@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <95E46CE5-F904-483B-9952-BB38A76B7BCB@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:27:57 -0500 Message-ID: <01fc01d2a96a$358609d0$a0921d70$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQFQScOCSvWv5Hu4NNcacnDPzCUMAQMPFYDHopnIHQA= Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Outcomes from v6ops@IETF98 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:28:04 -0000 > > I believe that the discussion today supported adoption of the = following as > working group drafts: > > draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs (as draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6rtr-reqs) > > draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis (as draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis) > > draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update (as > > draft-ietf-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update) I agree these should be adopted at WG drafts. =F0=9F=98=8A /r From nobody Thu Mar 30 08:29:57 2017 Return-Path: <7riw77@gmail.com> X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 66F60129406 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:29:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id m2cP4cOZmP6z for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:29:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x241.google.com (mail-it0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16020129512 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x241.google.com with SMTP id y18so13376574itc.2 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:29:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:thread-index:content-language; bh=9+bQcyavWr0ZE0x6Y5z6K19ZrqQaa/GibZ4WdLfDWo4=; b=tvPfuqGAyO1xzgM7D41QPbK57AgVxm4LY/EnnzMt/oTyVZguztlHOzDzEMuXf8C3dr ZQwqZS2exBJCo8xgOaA+rWsBeV9WivTJ4r4zTh3m6Umhx9h1wKHcUaIaMYceZcUAp+/a J1HGaogN1H1W734n1VCGsvQAc5+9cVbA4hYshf6c+qNOMShEy50Ex37hx7kpYlnxpqr5 3LazRsuTVsBNmglWdBfIPWDQTzEr4nOVChIFo7m2Wn2oUcvUecFRXmRMHfaicgEJQR+8 49buGCEcCb1kKIbj5Tmxkm7Bsnd4BOxiyDJXT0gyP0NNUr7A9NInXfzDTcGCs3895u/Q 38Nw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=9+bQcyavWr0ZE0x6Y5z6K19ZrqQaa/GibZ4WdLfDWo4=; b=UZewgwTYIUgQy3awgCKi2oEkdxUmr6jqxEEsM9F9BQofAdwIIpsb0hUR8h733iXeke 5BdrVKh3xB7jbVDVKqtDIJ69k6VxJMHfzSVQ4cjrYVV09noFGC00a3JAZKIsT0ZEYo+n axhi08eRDHp3x8hhjzW5Yv17jKPalaOrjG3ht57NFZR11lu2uS6J41nvT5wGZNiJk00L 9hAmDKiMGuawIgAi6pTZOfCi5xfdgCO1GCf7jy2vn3FjNbPUggw9hPql8A3kZDzHT+IE bi9rgvD1I5V4UWImuUegmo4qb0NPnpkTN+HdHUc4w+jdVJUeaYurOusTw/Drydjd6f6/ hm7g== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2oEjY1Q7huAaYdqolBdl/A7k5ZWBHmnM60D7AXH84yNEjjo21DF0x6hFACWsiuvA== X-Received: by 10.36.60.3 with SMTP id m3mr1102876ita.62.1490887792528; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:29:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Russ (t2001067c03700128d8c3a8e349d791da.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:d8c3:a8e3:49d7:91da]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j2sm1486996itj.30.2017.03.30.08.29.52 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:29:52 -0700 (PDT) From: "Russ White" <7riw77@gmail.com> To: "'Lorenzo Colitti'" , References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:29:49 -0500 Message-ID: <01fd01d2a96a$78729b50$6957d1f0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQGUGOSxNzsoaWXvJlCms908s6Kv+aIqou2w Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:29:55 -0000 > Given the discussion today on draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration and = draft- > ali-ipv6rtr-reqs , I'm wondering if we might find consensus to say = that host > and router implementations MUST implement RDNSS. I'm happy enough to include it -- it seems like a good idea to me.=20 =F0=9F=98=8A /r From nobody Thu Mar 30 08:38:41 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 818281296B9 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:38:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.698 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.698 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_08=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rO5ZkJK8CmeT for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22f.google.com (mail-vk0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2B3B8128990 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id s68so59048473vke.3 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:38:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to; bh=o7cxj8XqdbQNSDbmZ3BootkUXLybhY2Tvlm4jvZV7pY=; b=aloVzvRlaS9fJAC53K9Uh1tJQ3x8lwj2XdZFVbMSD+yMLEEqecZqREJrvYdLaLc/nJ 3ha5PxWQfxFyDzfH9VthxLrVcsECnXziVg6kPbhhd/VTw8nbCDa/RXO/5Pgr1J9nXipx IV5pSwx532QT85KXGTUVGViGU5xZQ41jcpx0ympiCSLp7ct2/Lec6PlPe10Yg4+zZaDA gZ9uVZulif5Vgh81SmXYhz7k90g/iqK3U3Q2xXnORDJj9rrbzmjnLnzgRXC1Zsxm4VgW ynonq8CAE6j1BNWM7UfToYZgF3uyVm7dMoLXdcOSusuKofQAM/p5+Tfp6LhIKtoQc/rK jMJg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=o7cxj8XqdbQNSDbmZ3BootkUXLybhY2Tvlm4jvZV7pY=; b=fgGWVpvSAixrgFGS8e4REsYGDkxoDH4TzXMaEasgTxMcMAKQHGStD2LdE73HtSkedy idFbNVX2DTmBLE1pFuzdBcDnSX/VMpKPcaEARinIvwlTDVW2iDw3xv7rsHdDspWvncyH kBRNyBe/FOsMpIaai3rByz4vwXmtbXft4wbEU41gJ1x2hLgwRjNiZjcMJxGWjHLrvLfO nie2dtaaPQENYpSDyoq/5y1xqfvrjF4AeRVCf7H74nJjrX6IEorww6RDbtfM9H0Gl6jL HyHwV6mHowwG0CoIyWv/xaOx87D13SwhdHZgH5jjQzfYrP3danCVi+lXVWPcujXJif7e 4rsg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1qYUgoA5ix/C1RO2NlXHu0FVps/SVpVGJYEMEfB9QNXEGn+7lL9YNKPl3y/Xma5w== X-Received: by 10.31.248.193 with SMTP id w184mr170709vkh.70.1490888315921; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:38:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MacBook-Pro-de-admin-alejandro.local (190-72-69-248.dyn.dsl.cantv.net. [190.72.69.248]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v200sm631138vkd.3.2017.03.30.08.38.34 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:38:35 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <34914036-eb1b-5913-5963-e72811f9c087@gmail.com> <757f76e0-2757-bbed-f465-d2773fba5345@gmail.com> From: Alejandro Acosta Message-ID: <6e8142ca-8af2-15fa-8fd5-eed1101ba741@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:38:32 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <757f76e0-2757-bbed-f465-d2773fba5345@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------BA4828922BD9A73614C826C4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food - IPv6 RTT vs IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:38:40 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------BA4828922BD9A73614C826C4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hello there, Regarding RTT v4 vs v6 I did something "interesting" recently, would like to know your thoughs. If you ping6 your loopback (lets say 1000 packets) interface with Windows or Linux, v6 is faster. Now try the same on MAC.., v6 is 20-25% slower. I did the above with many devices (and asked some friends) and the behavior was pretty much the same. MAC: --- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics --- 100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.037/*0.098*/1.062/0.112 ms --- ::1 ping6 statistics --- 100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 0.058/*0.120*/0.194/0.027 ms Linux: --- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics --- 100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 98999ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.015/0.021/*0.049*/0.007 ms --- ::1 ping statistics --- 100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 99013ms rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.019/0.031/*0.040*/0.004 ms Windows 10: Ping statistics for ::1: Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss), Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, *Average = 0ms* Ping statistics for 127.0.0.1: Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss), Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: Minimum = 0ms, *Maximum = 4ms*, *Average = 0ms* El 30/3/17 a las 10:38 a.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi: > > Ah yes sorry! My reading mistake, I retract that. > > > Le 30/03/2017 09:36, Nabil Benamar a crit : >> Alex, >> >> The average values I can read from the capture screen are different >> from what you mentioned! ! >> IPv6 is faster. >> >> Best regards >> Nabil >> >> >> >> On Mar 30, 2017 15:23, "Alexandre Petrescu" >> > >> wrote: >> >> pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID: >> >> - on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, than >> on IPv4. >> >> RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net >> , averages 150ms; whereas RTT for 8.8.8.8, >> or for (ipv4) www.kame.net averages 40ms. >> That's maybe three times faster on IPv4. >> >> >> >> >> >> Alex >> >> >> Le 30/03/2017 06:23, Nick Hilliard a crit : >>> No comment is necessary here: >>> >>> https://twitter.com/jaredmauch/status/847227063467560961 >>> >>> >>> Nick >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing >> list v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> >> > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --------------BA4828922BD9A73614C826C4 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------36321D93455D510DD4E3B1AC" --------------36321D93455D510DD4E3B1AC Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

Hello there,

Regarding RTT v4 vs v6 I did something "interesting" recently, would like to know your thoughs.

If you ping6 your loopback (lets say 1000 packets) interface with Windows or Linux, v6 is faster.

Now try the same on MAC.., v6 is 20-25% slower.

I did the above with many devices (and asked some friends) and the behavior was pretty much the same.


MAC:

--- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.037/0.098/1.062/0.112 ms

--- ::1 ping6 statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 0.058/0.120/0.194/0.027 ms


Linux:

--- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 98999ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.015/0.021/0.049/0.007 ms

--- ::1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 99013ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.019/0.031/0.040/0.004 ms

Windows 10:

Ping statistics for ::1:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, Average = 0ms


Ping statistics for 127.0.0.1:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 4ms, Average = 0ms



El 30/3/17 a las 10:38 a.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi:

Ah yes sorry! My reading mistake, I retract that.


Le 30/03/2017 09:36, Nabil Benamar a crit:
Alex,

The average values I can read from the capture screen are different from what you mentioned! !
IPv6 is faster.

Best regards
Nabil


On Mar 30, 2017 15:23, "Alexandre Petrescu" <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID:

- on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, than on IPv4.

RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net, averages 150ms; whereas RTT for 8.8.8.8, or for (ipv4) www.kame.net averages 40ms. That's maybe three times faster on IPv4.





Alex


Le 30/03/2017 06:23, Nick Hilliard a crit:


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v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
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quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:40:42 -0000 On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 3:37 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 30/03/2017 12:08, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: >> Given the discussion today on draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration and >> draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs , I'm wondering if we might find consensus to say >> that host and router implementations MUST implement RDNSS. Yes, very good idea. > I know what this means for hosts. For routers, what exactly does "impleme= nt" > mean? Assuming the router code is capable of including RDNSS in RAs, I believe it is exactly what 'support' means in this case. >does > it mean: > > 1. The code knows how to find the DNS server in order to construct the RA= . > or > 2. Somebody or something has to configure the router with the DNS server = address. It depends. Routers MUST be capable of sending RDNSS info in RA if DNS information is available for the routers somehow (via static or dynamic configuration - it includes the case when the router is configured as a DNS server itself). Actually it is the same for RA. The code needs to know where to find a list of prefixes to construct RAs (like DHCP-PD) or somebody/something has to configure the router with the list of prefixes to be sent in RAs... > >> The argument would be that: >> >> - It provides a way of configuring DNS servers that will work on ever= y >> compliant implementation, resolving the interoperability problems not= ed >> in draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration >> - Nodes MUST already support SLAAC (RFC 6434 =C2=A75.9.2), and once S= LAAC is >> implemented, adding support for RDNSS is fairly simple >> >> This could be either in a v6ops BCP or in the update of the node >> requirements that is being edited by Tim. >> >> Thoughts? >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --=20 SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Thu Mar 30 08:41:18 2017 Return-Path: <7riw77@gmail.com> X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 93D85129533 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:41:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Qhpx8BwEcD15 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:41:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x233.google.com (mail-it0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E4F9129512 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:41:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x233.google.com with SMTP id e75so115034022itd.1 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:41:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:thread-index:content-language; bh=4azv2g70P+x7uCnl1KlTJBkYEHy1K4cB7CprloQBoaU=; b=Tg0k7RDuWi7KB0nT855GQvM4f3wEr37ho0FCuIUkVniT6xZbzS5AMhpbbl1JqvqmLK QIIVi/d5nIGKyjLghnXCG4bmkUPdMDe86S5pJi4+Eg7haFilVAoAwD9fQyhDNJyzkshP 71h6F/wCWaW6jBwBqRftRlIPOUxZsMYHmVcm4BxClBG/L52ADcI3Ny61kPsncxiqFF7b NBMFHb5ABGrtpA9R8iSoR08K/LReuERBIVKxgSoxBFJrdcRlMKKM7eTbzwfEnZC99fEU 4cDW8NvtQ922WUGVD+NZah1JKHOehrcxfaPeUWvYxxNaTGgY7+Zi1UZWliJCbxeO33IY M8/Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=4azv2g70P+x7uCnl1KlTJBkYEHy1K4cB7CprloQBoaU=; b=pc+zreYKIlPw2iskSEbTrCe9xfrFZ/XWZ9QTVi9WWmhcXAF3iRfar2AnwPYENgHeQD Gq9eAFF03M2GiK70ddCCbFwzT9hRx9Rq2l8Dl8LNxuZw/S+xwYRjQxzqnZnlpRtXKqCr 33qffeODviP0do+Lh0N8kRdWXHm3hQJawaddQ9B7C5wE+jzCOE8FF7yvTXoTsmtMAQDG OzEGir/3sCYaz5VoNSTsmdTieY35v5ZtSErvvytGoDDkbsgPlr9C+5Ru++sR+PxChQJa 467iZY3Fjc0Y5LnBE4/iTo1Z+9K5RkXRTRQwZ3lTgwiHhiyu5nQL0Vq/mCuiOc+EbFJf 3V8g== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2tHXf1yzVp5Oh2EO7eg30UyU1nAu3WFujbx87Hxk3SYeUeP/DoZs/MUc5hcm2eFw== X-Received: by 10.36.210.134 with SMTP id z128mr5075765itf.23.1490888471568; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:41:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Russ (t2001067c03700128d8c3a8e349d791da.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:d8c3:a8e3:49d7:91da]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p70sm994916itg.0.2017.03.30.08.41.11 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:41:11 -0700 (PDT) From: "Russ White" <7riw77@gmail.com> To: "'Ron Bonica'" , "'IPv6 Ops WG'" References: In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:41:08 -0500 Message-ID: <020401d2a96c$0d320630$27961290$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQFgkFfbKlW8X9Jtbc7PQ8zBQIWfBqKRsm5A Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-02 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:41:17 -0000 > 1) Consider adding an appendix that summarizes requirements. An entry = in > this appendix might look like the following: I'll add this to the next version. > 2) Some of the requirements put forth in this document are IPv6 = specific. For > example, "SLAAC SHOULD be enabled by default on all router = interfaces". > Others requirements are applicable to IPv6 and IPv6. For example, = "TELNET > SHOULD be disabled by default, but should be available for operational > purposes as required or as configured by the operator". I wonder = whether > generic requirements belong in an document on requirements for IPv6 > routers? This is a hard question. While the document says "IPv6 requirements for = routers," we really threw out ideas that cover anything in a "router" -- = I don't know if this is the right "mix" however. I'd really like some = guidance from the WG here.=20 > 3) The title of Section 5.3 is "Maximum Transmission Unit and Jumbo > Frames". However, there is no further mention of Jumbo Frames. Could = we > explore Jumbo's possibly with an eye towards deprecation. I think this is one of those sections where I wasn't certain what to = say. I did not realize there was an effort afoot to deprecate jumbo = frames?=20 > 4) A few sections (e.g. 5.1) don't contain any requirements. Will they = contain > a requirement in a later revision? Do they support requirements in = another > section? If not, I wonder if they contribute to the document. These are place holders for "I don't know what stuff to say here, or if = it's helpful to include this." If anyone has ideas, I'm happy to add = text. If I don't have suggestions in a couple of revisions, I'll remove = them. =F0=9F=98=8A /r=20 From nobody Thu Mar 30 08:56:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8110128990 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:56:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mfD7zpfFz2wg for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:56:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AC5651287A5 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 08:56:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local ([194.88.241.232]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v2UFuKii031442 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:56:21 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host [194.88.241.232] claimed to be cupcake.local Message-ID: <58DD2AA4.9050807@foobar.org> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:56:20 +0100 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.12 (Macintosh/20170323) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Russ White <7riw77@gmail.com> CC: "'Lorenzo Colitti'" , v6ops@ietf.org References: <01fd01d2a96a$78729b50$6957d1f0$@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <01fd01d2a96a$78729b50$6957d1f0$@gmail.com> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:56:27 -0000 Russ White wrote: >> Given the discussion today on draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration and draft- >> ali-ipv6rtr-reqs , I'm wondering if we might find consensus to say that host >> and router implementations MUST implement RDNSS. > > I'm happy enough to include it -- it seems like a good idea to me. i don't think this is appropriate or even an especially good idea. It's the usual reason: RAs are normally handled at kernel level, meaning that it may not be reasonable or possible to interact with the user level configuration of dns settings. This seems to be a problem on some operating systems, at least one of which has a globally substantial install base. I'd be happy with something the document could state that the host MUST have a mechanism to automatically be assigned DNS settings (via e.g. rdnss or dhcpv6). Nick From nobody Thu Mar 30 09:03:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 131331296BF for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:03:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XEO_yEcq-mZi for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x235.google.com (mail-vk0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A510C129631 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:03:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x235.google.com with SMTP id r69so59954922vke.2 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:03:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=R3KobnnR+llTH8Le6SCzgIICxO2ddOYE/YZWMeaDmWw=; b=BjSwEWv4snGyv0UKbRvDOaPU2ZoWuVgx1Gmd8fyG3UQgE6mLt2OM5cQDyNQoXNPQOH qHZqDR5oOxewH1tvKkhLQ1qW2KFiUhc8zj3mNLC0O+EvKjALe+9qTTXR20PkFyQhgCyg 8DKyrVXQZ23I5NwChcfb7ZmBnnNL2Kmm+RPhi21vTkSggOwrCfUk0Adft2mAk5j7y/xP rGd+Cej8GbjLDuAmo4zQiqh8u+oLDhjFWu4XWBvB6T5NoOlaGzj62jHaYjHolL8Hx2cX +xwCGyDU3r7J4n8/EMy5OnF/HMIEB3duNA0UV0tnmoi/QN11gaOfh29y45wH3Zhgx1fc L9+w== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=R3KobnnR+llTH8Le6SCzgIICxO2ddOYE/YZWMeaDmWw=; b=iFJfMTa8qU45Rw+wL404OTnqPfi/8vw+09xC6QOvrwZMjEP3SOd2jykKqZkAqvY3Fj 8aq/gnD4pQIOSdBYqh8y5LgSxdzvpTAeQ4ENejOxOH1bqds/g6MgrmEclPJ6qyCmd3XA cL1oGwXenxS6MY7kG/oZBzARy7qJM0TPcCCO5NCXNWS+hx92cR0t9umoHBJhpxHVyx8C MlptZSzIdKmaKhLw1d/AAiP6kmAFw3pVU/P0vcXMhvpkOtFKRzxX8ZCF3lUzwWaLI88I xnKgTN1pv9IM4mXQooNZ23IhKBTEMCe+vLXhubvDTH8SrX1p+nh5+2LVs5Ubm8/0h2ko 33YQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H11ITGHOdLH0mE6YTKFdb2MgHP/AKnQi/u+gr9wc+mQ+0GWihqakZpY7lCnhhPwOqLeupKUjjqQgLGM/T9P X-Received: by 10.159.36.77 with SMTP id 71mr266979uaq.124.1490889799488; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:03:19 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.137.142 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:02:58 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <58DD2AA4.9050807@foobar.org> References: <01fd01d2a96a$78729b50$6957d1f0$@gmail.com> <58DD2AA4.9050807@foobar.org> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:02:58 -0500 Message-ID: To: Nick Hilliard Cc: Russ White <7riw77@gmail.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113dc80ee63bbb054bf4d42e Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:03:22 -0000 --001a113dc80ee63bbb054bf4d42e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Nick Hilliard wrote: > This seems to be a problem on some operating systems, at least one of > which has a globally substantial install base. > I suspect we'll find that that problem will be resolved soon. --001a113dc80ee63bbb054bf4d42e Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On T= hu, Mar 30, 2017 at 10:56 AM, Nick Hilliard <nick@foobar.org> wrote:
This seems to be a problem on so= me operating systems, at least one of which has a globally substantial=C2= =A0install base.

I suspect we'll fi= nd that that problem will be resolved soon.
--001a113dc80ee63bbb054bf4d42e-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 09:07:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8573D128990 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:07:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.331 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.331 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_08=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WkwmP_8FoQev for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:07:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 346B9126C3D for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:07:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2UG74Y1048456 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:07:04 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 503E8208F4F for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:07:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet1.intra.cea.fr (muguet1.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.6]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40202208C9E for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:07:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.85.9] ([132.166.85.9]) by muguet1.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2UG6x7k029479 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:06:59 +0200 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <34914036-eb1b-5913-5963-e72811f9c087@gmail.com> <757f76e0-2757-bbed-f465-d2773fba5345@gmail.com> <6e8142ca-8af2-15fa-8fd5-eed1101ba741@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:06:43 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6e8142ca-8af2-15fa-8fd5-eed1101ba741@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------010D054E6DEE34CB09922273" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food - IPv6 RTT vs IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:07:12 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------010D054E6DEE34CB09922273 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I had an error in interpreting the word "TTL" displayed rightmost in ping IPv4, as the "time" displayed rightmost on IPv6 ping, in Windows. Did you use Windows for the test of loopback? Le 30/03/2017 10:38, Alejandro Acosta a crit : > > Hello there, > > Regarding RTT v4 vs v6 I did something "interesting" recently, would > like to know your thoughs. > > If you ping6 your loopback (lets say 1000 packets) interface with > Windows or Linux, v6 is faster. > > Now try the same on MAC.., v6 is 20-25% slower. > > I did the above with many devices (and asked some friends) and the > behavior was pretty much the same. > > > MAC: > > --- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics --- > 100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss > round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.037/*0.098*/1.062/0.112 ms > > --- ::1 ping6 statistics --- > 100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss > round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 0.058/*0.120*/0.194/0.027 ms > > > Linux: > > --- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics --- > 100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 98999ms > rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.015/0.021/*0.049*/0.007 ms > > --- ::1 ping statistics --- > 100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 99013ms > rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.019/0.031/*0.040*/0.004 ms > > Windows 10: > > Ping statistics for ::1: > Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss), > Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: > Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, *Average = 0ms* > > > Ping statistics for 127.0.0.1: > Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss), > Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: > Minimum = 0ms, *Maximum = 4ms*, *Average = 0ms* > > > > El 30/3/17 a las 10:38 a.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi: >> >> Ah yes sorry! My reading mistake, I retract that. >> >> >> Le 30/03/2017 09:36, Nabil Benamar a crit : >>> Alex, >>> >>> The average values I can read from the capture screen are different >>> from what you mentioned! ! >>> IPv6 is faster. >>> >>> Best regards >>> Nabil >>> >>> >>> On Mar 30, 2017 15:23, "Alexandre Petrescu" >>> > >>> wrote: >>> >>> pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID: >>> >>> - on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, than >>> on IPv4. >>> >>> RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net >>> , averages 150ms; whereas RTT for 8.8.8.8, >>> or for (ipv4) www.kame.net averages 40ms. >>> That's maybe three times faster on IPv4. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Alex >>> >>> >>> Le 30/03/2017 06:23, Nick Hilliard a crit : >>>> No comment is necessary here: >>>> >>>> https://twitter.com/jaredmauch/status/847227063467560961 >>>> >>>> >>>> Nick >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> v6ops mailing list >>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing >>> list v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --------------010D054E6DEE34CB09922273 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------C739F11A902160788AC80AB9" --------------C739F11A902160788AC80AB9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I had an error in interpreting the word "TTL" displayed rightmost in ping IPv4, as the "time" displayed rightmost on IPv6 ping, in Windows.

Did you use Windows for the test of loopback?


Le 30/03/2017 10:38, Alejandro Acosta a crit:

Hello there,

Regarding RTT v4 vs v6 I did something "interesting" recently, would like to know your thoughs.

If you ping6 your loopback (lets say 1000 packets) interface with Windows or Linux, v6 is faster.

Now try the same on MAC.., v6 is 20-25% slower.

I did the above with many devices (and asked some friends) and the behavior was pretty much the same.


MAC:

--- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.037/0.098/1.062/0.112 ms

--- ::1 ping6 statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 0.058/0.120/0.194/0.027 ms


Linux:

--- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 98999ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.015/0.021/0.049/0.007 ms

--- ::1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 99013ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.019/0.031/0.040/0.004 ms

Windows 10:

Ping statistics for ::1:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, Average = 0ms


Ping statistics for 127.0.0.1:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 4ms, Average = 0ms



El 30/3/17 a las 10:38 a.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi:

Ah yes sorry! My reading mistake, I retract that.


Le 30/03/2017 09:36, Nabil Benamar a crit:
Alex,

The average values I can read from the capture screen are different from what you mentioned! !
IPv6 is faster.

Best regards
Nabil


On Mar 30, 2017 15:23, "Alexandre Petrescu" <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID:

- on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, than on IPv4.

RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net, averages 150ms; whereas RTT for 8.8.8.8, or for (ipv4) www.kame.net averages 40ms. That's maybe three times faster on IPv4.





Alex


Le 30/03/2017 06:23, Nick Hilliard a crit:


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(t2001067c0370012828ccdc4c97036781.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i96sm1548586iod.46.2017.03.30.09.18.25 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 09:18:25 -0700 (PDT) To: Nick Hilliard , Russ White <7riw77@gmail.com> References: <01fd01d2a96a$78729b50$6957d1f0$@gmail.com> <58DD2AA4.9050807@foobar.org> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:18:33 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <58DD2AA4.9050807@foobar.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:18:29 -0000 On 31/03/2017 04:56, Nick Hilliard wrote: > Russ White wrote: >>> Given the discussion today on draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration and draft- >>> ali-ipv6rtr-reqs , I'm wondering if we might find consensus to say that host >>> and router implementations MUST implement RDNSS. >> >> I'm happy enough to include it -- it seems like a good idea to me. > > i don't think this is appropriate or even an especially good idea. It's > the usual reason: RAs are normally handled at kernel level, meaning that > it may not be reasonable or possible to interact with the user level > configuration of dns settings. This seems to be a problem on some > operating systems, at least one of which has a globally substantial > install base. That sounds like an o/s that would need fixing to support this new requirement. > I'd be happy with something the document could state that the host MUST > have a mechanism to automatically be assigned DNS settings (via e.g. > rdnss or dhcpv6). Excuse me, but that says nothing useful. The reason for requiring both is because we don't know in the abstract which mechanisms the host will encounter and we want hosts to work wherever they happen to be. 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Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:59:50 +0000 From: Tim Chown To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food Thread-Index: AQHSqUgsqUnubSMEFEu3KPekoWUR9qGtQBMAgACegQA= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:59:50 +0000 Message-ID: References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <20170330113232.GD98455@ernw.de> In-Reply-To: <20170330113232.GD98455@ernw.de> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [31.133.149.62] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM3PR07MB1138; 7:9iI5ZdbOnbUGdhHWOBTF3Vb57DP2RZTZHzeZl6FuUodCAhnh0GkI3V+xcET4y4P9XY5bPikcQUSGBx+Fo0tsoAnMm/0+ZLzc15bTnh/2kja9TEggSQqg7lBUZEAsWs98cjQcYJPnJGXtkGhW5ohJ6Ohtv4ssJSmIoZ5xlXSvS0f3dUPQZ6iBu+XYQS4j6Rz6vI4KSABub8wIy13VxYDUGDT3t/YLYziEbIZ5z4ix1v0jbdpfgcIbPjD2yZaZltc8suytuy08+6rdfMGJQoTDS3QfcN2F3hLgOzwpFNl99lOHfjsOdCt4QbnPYerhcM2rfWxY/XTPZSlsxIj/MbiLbA==; 20:TBpK1WAbeQEi1vVuJA5A7LE4u6Rx2qmaAu/o6mWONW8K8rByljCndrHirGmNccijB4gu7jpRETQSahu1FtRLJ9D+dVPMZsp3+UQ5Bh4m4w5qJNERl+nm+RkvQ7H14sIg2xodqL+F3KCEHs44H4m5XIc4uGRYXe4quPbhOQHfaHo= x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: ca73a60e-c5c1-428f-138a-08d477afb51c x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(2017030254075)(201703131423075)(201703031133081)(201702281549075); SRVR:AM3PR07MB1138; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(31418570063057); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(6040450)(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(93006073)(93001073)(3002001)(10201501046)(6041248)(20161123560025)(201703131423075)(201702281529075)(201702281528075)(201703061421075)(20161123555025)(20161123562025)(20161123564025)(6072148); SRVR:AM3PR07MB1138; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:AM3PR07MB1138; x-forefront-prvs: 02622CEF0A x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(6009001)(39410400002)(39450400003)(39850400002)(39400400002)(39840400002)(24454002)(7736002)(57306001)(81166006)(83716003)(42882006)(189998001)(99286003)(6916009)(2950100002)(110136004)(8936002)(305945005)(38730400002)(3660700001)(558084003)(25786009)(2906002)(36756003)(6436002)(2900100001)(66066001)(6306002)(82746002)(74482002)(3280700002)(33656002)(229853002)(6116002)(3846002)(6512007)(50226002)(5660300001)(102836003)(6486002)(8676002)(6246003)(53936002)(5250100002)(86362001)(76176999)(6506006)(50986999); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AM3PR07MB1138; H:AM3PR07MB1140.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:sfv; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jisc.ac.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Mar 2017 20:59:50.6955 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 48f9394d-8a14-4d27-82a6-f35f12361205 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM3PR07MB1138 X-MC-Unique: Pr27t3G8M6SagQw22wAGVA-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:00:00 -0000 On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 12:23:42PM +0100, Nick Hilliard wrote: >> No comment is necessary here: >>=20 >> https://twitter.com/jaredmauch/status/847227063467560961 Anyone know what software is putting that display together? Tim=20 From nobody Thu Mar 30 14:24:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1C01F1292CE for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:24:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.321 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.321 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H4=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=jisc.ac.uk Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id F3vZfAUTWhPO for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:24:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from eu-smtp-delivery-189.mimecast.com (eu-smtp-delivery-189.mimecast.com [207.82.80.189]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F17D012785F for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:24:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=jisc.ac.uk; s=mimecast20170213; t=1490909048; bh=A/aBgq0eprNKFfzGiDS+fSd7eopiISQYs2eYAw3NYMk=; h=From:To:CC:Subject:Date:Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To:Content-ID:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Content-Transfer-Encoding; b=cO/sJe93C+btiIINczEcw/XbwPpPHrslOk7rPnrYS9DzX2I7DL/WU1mpA2tgsifz2S9Qrq9juRMkcx4wznY5F8xRAEaAICPvZ0jHiXA/D3IRhh+s4GXKpURoluW0eBGfcFCCZnof7xAgr/OT8QVwhgbAYPXoKTeguCuKdieDxTY= Received: from EUR01-VE1-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-ve1eur01lp0246.outbound.protection.outlook.com [213.199.154.246]) (Using TLS) by eu-smtp-1.mimecast.com with ESMTP id uk-mta-8-Lk57jQX1PV6WCobS86EuqA-1; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 22:24:03 +0100 Received: from AM3PR07MB1140.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.163.188.14) by AM3PR07MB1137.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com (10.163.188.11) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_CBC_SHA256_P256) id 15.1.1019.8; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:24:01 +0000 Received: from AM3PR07MB1140.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::29d9:4eb6:edcf:55dc]) by AM3PR07MB1140.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::29d9:4eb6:edcf:55dc%14]) with mapi id 15.01.1019.009; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:24:01 +0000 From: Tim Chown To: Brian E Carpenter CC: Ted Lemon , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? Thread-Index: AQHSqOFocyuY5KS/Ck2Z1SdTJY6HuaGtY7oAgAAYnICAAAT9AIAAZM8A Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:24:00 +0000 Message-ID: <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [31.133.149.62] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM3PR07MB1137; 7:po85K0uWIte8VT1L8aoYdtC+4pxEHxDJ9Z+ttQQU1/nV+XiNvv6vKtFlCSeVJa3YILAmgm0YnWGkyH/r+xxVC6EIl1e6jghJEiHD3CWt8gfQPMRZGEcY66t8wFedzFWlEgZYQCw0X3jHnP22+azrQDQWfKNEiCqArVP6h6QlZavKyVsaoE+2dizdFqe2OPh1bkkXnPdkyQdDe3KTTTqTaoAkmoC/svioBvNtL069i6CWPdKAZDsdOa8IzMzxhBOkThXTGj6AFHXrL/xLT2A2OGrkmLFA1rrRK/38nHjzR2oC1A8rf6/+5TOp0xRMUIYKj3sSqSULa+zMD6w56LSJfw==; 20:31rJG/0XJOGtj5iYJ4DhDfA4twALGU6jSgcEAwVpe/GdoGrrDeZGpme0GTvzwfnqLyTCfZoE/PVcKHV8fUtXjA+QoTg4gp2vtROYt+bDu6VSuHFmngYP5W8ED6dtCEj9p2XDntHsUFN/kW+IjHOaVp7ozD5IEvOwqAucm4DdCEc= x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: e8460d6a-866b-4dd1-aa0b-08d477b3158f x-microsoft-antispam: UriScan:; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(22001)(2017030254075)(201703131423075)(201703031133081); SRVR:AM3PR07MB1137; x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-exchange-antispam-report-test: UriScan:(158342451672863); x-exchange-antispam-report-cfa-test: BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:(6040450)(601004)(2401047)(8121501046)(5005006)(93006074)(93001074)(3002001)(10201501046)(6041248)(20161123562025)(201703131423075)(201702281529075)(201702281528075)(201703061421075)(20161123560025)(20161123564025)(20161123555025)(6072148); SRVR:AM3PR07MB1137; BCL:0; PCL:0; RULEID:; SRVR:AM3PR07MB1137; x-forefront-prvs: 02622CEF0A x-forefront-antispam-report: SFV:NSPM; SFS:(10009020)(6009001)(39450400003)(39840400002)(39400400002)(39410400002)(39850400002)(51444003)(377454003)(24454002)(6916009)(38730400002)(42882006)(8936002)(2950100002)(6246003)(39060400002)(110136004)(50226002)(2906002)(3846002)(81166006)(53546009)(33656002)(102836003)(8676002)(6116002)(4326008)(93886004)(3660700001)(3280700002)(5250100002)(189998001)(7736002)(25786009)(82746002)(305945005)(5660300001)(57306001)(6512007)(99286003)(54906002)(53936002)(66066001)(6506006)(83716003)(6436002)(86362001)(36756003)(2900100001)(229853002)(50986999)(76176999)(74482002)(6486002)(80883001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AM3PR07MB1137; H:AM3PR07MB1140.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:ovrnspm; PTR:InfoNoRecords; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jisc.ac.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Mar 2017 21:24:00.9889 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 48f9394d-8a14-4d27-82a6-f35f12361205 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM3PR07MB1137 X-MC-Unique: Lk57jQX1PV6WCobS86EuqA-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:24:12 -0000 SGksDQoNCj4gT24gMzAgTWFyIDIwMTcsIGF0IDE2OjIzLCBCcmlhbiBFIENhcnBlbnRlciA8YnJp YW4uZS5jYXJwZW50ZXJAZ21haWwuY29tPiB3cm90ZToNCj4gDQo+IE9uIDMxLzAzLzIwMTcgMDQ6 MDUsIFRlZCBMZW1vbiB3cm90ZToNCj4+IE9uIE1hciAzMCwgMjAxNywgYXQgODozNyBBTSwgQnJp YW4gRSBDYXJwZW50ZXIgPGJyaWFuLmUuY2FycGVudGVyQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+Pj4g MS4gVGhlIGNvZGUga25vd3MgaG93IHRvIGZpbmQgdGhlIEROUyBzZXJ2ZXIgaW4gb3JkZXIgdG8g Y29uc3RydWN0IHRoZSBSQS4NCj4+PiBvcg0KPj4+IDIuIFNvbWVib2R5IG9yIHNvbWV0aGluZyBo YXMgdG8gY29uZmlndXJlIHRoZSByb3V0ZXIgd2l0aCB0aGUgRE5TIHNlcnZlciBhZGRyZXNzLg0K Pj4+ID8NCj4+IA0KPj4gVGhpcyBwcm9iYWJseSBkZXBlbmRzIG9uIHRoZSByb3V0ZXIuICAgRm9y IENFIHJvdXRlcnMsIHRoZSByb3V0ZXIgbWlnaHQgYWR2ZXJ0aXNlIGl0c2VsZiBhcyB0aGUgRE5T IHJlY3Vyc2l2ZSByZXNvbHZlciwgYW5kIHVzZSB0aGUgcmVzb2x2ZXIgaXQgZ290IGZyb20gREhD UCBQRCBhcyBfaXRzXyByZWN1cnNpdmUgcmVzb2x2ZXIuICAgRm9yIGluZnJhc3RydWN0dXJlIHJv dXRlcnMsIGVpdGhlciBpdCBoYXMgdG8gYmUgY29uZmlndXJlZCBhdXRvbWF0aWNhbGx5IHVzaW5n IERIQ1AsIG9yIGF1dG9tYXRpY2FsbHkgdXNpbmcgYSBwcm92aXNpb25pbmcgc3lzdGVtLCBvciBt YW51YWxseS4gICBJIHRoaW5rIHRoYXQncyB0b28gcGFpbmZ1bCBmb3IgdXMgdG8gc3BlY2lmeSwg YnV0IHdlIGNhbiBjZXJ0YWlubHkgc3BlY2lmeSBob3cgQ0Ugcm91dGVycyBiZWhhdmUuDQo+IA0K PiBBZ3JlZWQuIEkganVzdCB3YW50IHRoZSBzZW1hbnRpY3Mgb2YgdGhlIHdvcmQgJ2ltcGxlbWVu dCcgdG8gYmUgY3J5c3RhbCBjbGVhci4gU29tZXRoaW5nIGxpa2UNCj4gDQo+IE1VU1QgaGF2ZSB0 aGUgY2FwYWJpbGl0eSB0byBzZW5kIFJBcyB3aXRoIFJETlNTLCBhbmQgTVVTVCBoYXZlIGEgbWVj aGFuaXNtIGZvciBkaXNjb3ZlcmluZw0KPiBvciBjb25maWd1cmluZyB0aGUgYXBwcm9wcmlhdGUg RE5TIHNlcnZlciBhZGRyZXNzLg0KDQpJdCBzb3VuZHMgbGlrZSB0aGlzIGlzIHRoZSBzcGlyaXQg d2Ugd2FudCB0byBhY2hpZXZlLCBpLmUuIHdpdGhvdXQgc3BlY2lmeWluZyB0aGUgbWVjaGFuaXNt LiBBbmQgYXNzdW1pbmcgaXTigJlzIGEgcm91dGVyIHRoYXQgbmVlZHMgdG8gc2VuZCBSQXMgb24g YSBnaXZlbiBpbnRlcmZhY2UuDQoNCldlIGNvdWxkIGFkZCB3b3JkcyBsaWtlIHRoaXMgdG8gU2Vj dGlvbiAxMiBvZiA2NDM0LWJpcywgYW5kIHN5bmMgdGhhdCB3aXRoIGRyYWZ0LWFsaS1pcHY2cnRy LXJlcXMtMDIsIHdoaWNoIFJ1c3Mgc2VlbXMgaGFwcHkgdG8gZG8uDQoNCldlIGFsc28gdGhlbiBh ZGQgdGhlIE1VU1QgZm9yIGhvc3RzL2NsaWVudHMuDQoNCkJ1dCB3aGF0IGFib3V0IHN0YXRlbGVz cyBESENQdjYgaW4gc3VwcG9ydCBvZiBkZXRlcm1pbmluZyB0aGUgYXZhaWxhYmxlIEROUyByZXNv bHZlcnM/ICBBdCBwcmVzZW50IFJGQzY0MzQganVzdCBzYXlzICJBbiBJUHY2IG5vZGUgY2FuIHVz ZSB0aGUgc3Vic2V0IG9mIERIQ1AgKGRlc2NyaWJlZCBpbiBSRkMzNzM2KSB0byBvYnRhaW4gb3Ro ZXIgY29uZmlndXJhdGlvbiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbi7igJ0gIERvIHdlIGxlYXZlIHRoYXQgYXMgaXM/ IEkgaGF2ZSBoZWFyZCBhIGNvdXBsZSBvZiBwZW9wbGUgc3VnZ2VzdCB0aGVyZSBzaG91bGQgYmUg c3Ryb25nZXIgd29yZHMgdGhlcmUsIGJ1dCBlcXVhbGx5IHZpZXdzIHRoZSBvdGhlciB3YXkuICBP biB0aGF0IGJhc2lzLCBsZWF2aW5nIGFzIGlzIHdvdWxkIGJlIHRoZSBkZWZhdWx0IHBhdGguDQoN ClRpbQ== From nobody Thu Mar 30 14:36:06 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 954A1129480 for ; 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Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:35:47 +0000 From: Tim Chown To: Brian E Carpenter CC: Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org Operations" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix Thread-Index: AQHSqOzHZLQL+ZMLNEWzjdSZpU7/iaGtKOWAgAAzcICAAA1hAIAACtcAgAB0xoA= Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:35:46 +0000 Message-ID: <6F6673DB-A555-46B7-A66D-76C746BAAA4F@jisc.ac.uk> References: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> <731DBBD1-3FE5-404B-8711-69AF434C35DB@thehobsons.co.uk> <61272D8A-FC55-4178-80C7-12CE06FE80E3@thehobsons.co.uk> <09989c7b-7348-ef43-87b1-b50c812c2b61@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <09989c7b-7348-ef43-87b1-b50c812c2b61@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-GB, en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-mailer: Apple Mail (2.3259) x-ms-exchange-messagesentrepresentingtype: 1 x-originating-ip: [31.133.149.62] x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; AM3PR07MB1137; 7:3IcHavu6QDtYT2cZTazkI0vc9Exr3zTV64Yd04bAmEyxIw3gkXWZwvy55pgTqNpBnr4Zd+/dxAFelPj0MKCUlzVs0iIcOPwI+bcWUhXZBGLF7nf3kmiY0vt2hVMY7bJ+2AofZqqp6qMLR8csl6CE4IoJso0WVmWbmp7zMFB6/d9jPKsVjO5YWy/gdTxLTG8CziJl2a6vsUyaPbFh3vM5BgEPiPEyukVhj/ge0jqtnZsyavJhOMWy4Zy+fOY/m9tjEFdwvnjOR9CQRWbH3q5/dkOO0KXcdIzDaFJkVi/fFq/AO6ifYdNpkhSC8wig7NhX5WwWQEBwlPDstgeCGSIV7g==; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; SCL:1; SRVR:AM3PR07MB1137; H:AM3PR07MB1140.eurprd07.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; MLV:ovrnspm; PTR:InfoNoRecords; LANG:en; spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-ID: <2B4BD5B80FFC07419B59368B9EAB14DA@eurprd07.prod.outlook.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: jisc.ac.uk X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 30 Mar 2017 21:35:46.9705 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 48f9394d-8a14-4d27-82a6-f35f12361205 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: AM3PR07MB1137 X-MC-Unique: XrqgSTeoMj-jnKo9675KNQ-1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:36:03 -0000 PiBPbiAzMCBNYXIgMjAxNywgYXQgMTU6MzcsIEJyaWFuIEUgQ2FycGVudGVyIDxicmlhbi5lLmNh cnBlbnRlckBnbWFpbC5jb20+IHdyb3RlOg0KPiANCj4gT24gMzEvMDMvMjAxNyAwMjo1OSwgU2lt b24gSG9ic29uIHdyb3RlOg0KPj4gQnJpYW4gRSBDYXJwZW50ZXIgPGJyaWFuLmUuY2FycGVudGVy QGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+PiANCj4+Pj4gRXhhY3RseSwgaWYgeW91IGFwcGx5IHRoZSBw cmVmaXggbWFzayB0byBmZTgxOjovMTAgdGhlbiB5b3UgZ2V0IGEgcHJlZml4IG9mIGZlODAvMTAg YW5kIGEgaG9zdCBpZGVudGlmaWVyIHBhcnQgb2YgMTo6IHdoaWNoIG1lYW5zIHRoZSBhZGRyZXNz IGlzbid0IGEgbmV0d29yayBhZGRyZXNzIGJ1dCBhIGhvc3QgYWRkcmVzcyB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIHN1 Ym5ldCBmZTgwOjovMTANCj4+Pj4gDQo+Pj4+IEFGQUlLIHRoaXMgaXMgdW5jaGFuZ2VkIGZyb20g SVB2NCBzbyBpdCByZWFsbHkgc2hvdWxkbid0IGJlIGEgcHJvYmxlbSBmb3IgYW55b25lLg0KPj4+ IA0KPj4+IERpc2FncmVlLiBJdCBpc24ndCBleHBsYWluZWQgY29ycmVjdGx5IGluIFJGQzQyOTEg KG9yIHJmYzQyOTFiaXMpIGluIGEgd2F5IHRoYXQgYW55Ym9keQ0KPj4+IGNhbiB1bmRlcnN0YW5k LiBBbmQgaXQgc2VlbXMgdmVyeSBoYXJkIGZvciBhIG1hY2hpbmUgdG8gdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB1bmxl c3MgaXQgYWxzbw0KPj4+IHVuZGVyc3RhbmRzIHRoZSBjb250ZXh0LiAoSGVuY2UgdGhlIG5leHQg cG9pbnQuKQ0KPj4gDQo+PiBBcmUgd2UgZGlzY3Vzc2luZyB0aGUgc2FtZSB0aGluZywgb3IgaGF2 ZSBJIG1pc3NlZCBzb21ldGhpbmcgb2J2aW91cyA/IEknbSBzdGlsbCByZWFsbHkgc3RydWdnbGlu ZyB0byB1bmRlcnN0YW5kIHdoYXQgdGhlIHByb2JsZW0gaXMgLSBvdGhlciB0aGFuIGFuIGluY29u c2lzdGVuY3kgYmV0d2VlbiBkaWZmZXJlbnQgcGxhY2VzIHdoZXJlICJsaW5rIGxvY2FsIGFkZHJl c3MiIGlzIGRlZmluZWQuDQo+PiANCj4+IFN1cmVseSBzaW1wbGUgYml0d2lzZSBBTkQvT1Igb3Bl cmF0aW9ucyBhcmUgZXhhY3RseSB0aGUgc29ydCBvZiB0aGluZ3MgdGhhdCBjb21wdXRlcnMgYXJl IHZlcnkgZ29vZCBhdC4NCj4+IA0KPj4gVGFrZSBhZGRyZXNzLCBBTkQgd2l0aCBhIG1hc2sgY29t cHJpc2VkIG9mIHRlbiAxcyBhbmQgMTE4IDBzLCBpZiB0aGUgcmVzdWx0ID0gZmU4MCB0aGVuIGl0 J3MgaW4gdGhlIGxpbmstbG9jYWwgYmxvY2suDQo+PiBUYWtlIGFkZHJlc3MsIEFORCB3aXRoIGEg bWFzayBvZiB0ZW4gMHMgYW5kIDExOCAxcywgaWYgdGhlIHJlc3VsdCBpcyBub24temVybyB0aGVu IGl0J3MgYSBob3N0IGlkZW50aWZpZXIgKGFkZHJlc3MpLg0KPj4gDQo+PiBJc24ndCB0aGlzIHBy ZXR0eSB3ZWxsIHRoZSBzYW1lIHByb2Nlc3MgYXMgZGV0ZXJtaW5pbmcgaWYgYW4gYWRkcmVzcyBp cyB3aXRoaW4gb25lIG9mIHRoZSBwcm92aWRlZCBvbi1saW5rIHByZWZpeGVzID8gVGFrZSBhZGRy ZXNzLCBBTkQgd2l0aCBtYXNrIHdpdGggcHJlZml4LWxlbmd0aCAxcyBhbmQgdGhlIHJlc3QgMHMs IGlmIHJlc3VsdCA9PSB0aGUgcHJlZml4IHRoZW4gdGhlIGFkZHJlc3MgaXMgd2l0aGluIHRoYXQg cHJlZml4LCBlbHNlIGl0IGlzbid0Lg0KPiANCj4gWWVzLCBpdCdzIHBhcnNhYmxlLiBCdXQgaXQn cyB2ZXJ5IGVycm9yIHByb25lIHdoZW4gaHVtYW5zIGFyZSBpbiB0aGUgbG9vcC4NCj4gSXQncyBi YWRseSBleHBsYWluZWQgaW4gdGhlIGFkZHJlc3NpbmcgYXJjaGl0ZWN0dXJlIGFuZCBub3QgZXhw bGFpbmVkIGF0DQo+IGFsbCBpbiBSRkM1OTUyLiBBbmQgdGhlIGludGVycHJldGF0aW9uIGlzIGNv bnRleHQtZGVwZW5kZW50Lg0KPiANCj4gSXMgZmQ2Mzo0NWViOmRjMTU6Oi82NCB0aGUgYWRkcmVz cyBmZDYzOjQ1ZWI6ZGMxNTo6ICh3aGljaCBoYXBwZW5zIHRvIGhhdmUgYW4gDQo+IElJRCA9PSAw KSBxdWFsaWZpZWQgd2l0aCBhIC82NCBwcmVmaXgsIG9yIHRoZSBwcmVmaXggZmQ2Mzo0NWViOmRj MTU6Oi82NCA/DQoNCg0KSSBhZ3JlZSBpdCBkZXBlbmRzIG9uIHRoZSBjb250ZXh0LCBhbmQgaXMg YmFkbHkgZXhwbGFpbmVkLiANCg0KQXJlIHlvdSBzdWdnZXN0aW5nIFJGQzU5NTIgc2hvdWxkIHJl cXVpcmUgZmQ2Mzo0NWViOmRjMTU6OjAvNjQgZm9yIHRoZSB0ZXh0dWFsIHJlcHJlc2VudGF0aW9u IG9mIHRoZSBhZGRyZXNzLCBvcuKApj8gIFNlY3Rpb24gMiBvZiBSRkM1OTUyIGhhcHBlbnMgdG8g b21pdCBleGFtcGxlcyB3aXRoIGEgdHJhaWxpbmcgMDsgdGhleSBhcmUgYWxsIDEgOikNCg0KVGlt From nobody Thu Mar 30 14:39:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9C6B127B31 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:39:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, WEIRD_PORT=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xRauQzlzUAfQ for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vwp3261.webpack.hosteurope.de (vwp3261.webpack.hosteurope.de [IPv6:2a01:488:42:1000:57e6:2d0c::]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5B2B312955B for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:39:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from t2001067c03701999e82586966d33c247.v6.meeting.ietf.org ([2001:67c:370:1999:e825:8696:6d33:c247] helo=boell.ac.ilsf.de); authenticated by vwp3261.webpack.hosteurope.de running ExIM with esmtpsa (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) id 1cthmY-0002al-54; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 23:39:02 +0200 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <20170330113232.GD98455@ernw.de> From: Michael Breuer Openpgp: id=93EDD6E843159956FCA31698DB0B3B15EB351B72 Message-ID: <6ce48165-0d81-5e54-75fa-84dd8ed0cb16@ilsf.de> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 23:38:59 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; OpenBSD amd64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-bounce-key: webpack.hosteurope.de; michael.breuer@ilsf.de; 1490909944; bd2af913; X-HE-SMSGID: 1cthmY-0002al-54 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:39:16 -0000 It's done using Grafana (grafana.com). You can access the dashboard at http://dashboard.meeting.ietf.org:3000/ But apparently it's ipv4 only. Michael On 03/30/17 22:59, Tim Chown wrote: > On Thu, Mar 30, 2017 at 12:23:42PM +0100, Nick Hilliard wrote: >>> No comment is necessary here: >>> >>> https://twitter.com/jaredmauch/status/847227063467560961 > > > Anyone know what software is putting that display together? > > Tim From nobody Thu Mar 30 14:44:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B92CD129680 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:44:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yO39DTW3hZuE for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:43:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x243.google.com (mail-io0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 620EE1296FF for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:43:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x243.google.com with SMTP id 68so4265691ioh.3 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:43:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Cx0IL5eSWjI53z9xbtVz3BzDhJHzGmAGzTE4/Z66+D8=; b=EwqyBGOGsivvgTQr7G079WsIUUO/CjburRLZ14UhADI2Si0r98ofdhaL1dVyXeGG2B kn5rZ30vhY+hR3s9Jm5XvzOfj4BD4pjCIOX97iQosWOaMdbm8HhRMkgMNkvIBsl3Jlup f7g+n1LUyepRG4/Mi9QrpTQA0elL2ZhC35Ar8OKpmds/sSmcNLbi2sAkEeeKmATl0i1g csey7XvExvYNNguIBTaOI6JFKnvS6D3CzZdlyJB5LBce7Abkc2vuzmYq5DPXXcE2BtKz cRpnKL+ZaYGZQLGtWYu+ncOEDrZF9wTp91h9oHEdH6EImVbSq9SL9i5iJeQ8+uxGhHUR T+vw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Cx0IL5eSWjI53z9xbtVz3BzDhJHzGmAGzTE4/Z66+D8=; b=IA+5963YqYzqb2y/EiXnv4ubrwVN7v/0HhIcp/Jd3O7fsmHEXXhYtzi+BHh6GQs7rL gcYxUQFvxUmqKvfb0wBLCf64yKchVpHgDPf6PVxWgiCuwn3LbFcH/ggHjvGe9QiEV534 qCvDAKi+iwwqpLHI31OEorIufDzfUiGmjZ6i5Vtet8+41m5RDSVozOUbqnEYtq1bM9fN tClcr/IM9sDK/QI9NH1rstb1Cw8CZ6ZJSwXSp45IhL/zD1+dC7RFwPeKFudFZDQMnMym ag6M9Y2pt087G2K5hQ01EPOV7mPMIhyfVmcF9TAhsNWcl4NdZU8ge12zQSb37ICHjh2B ObjA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1+ogcKPfcDuzZf850CsfmPXXFWJAnB8aScnI7E0onX9UrsjcHPORJ874z3FzyuLA== X-Received: by 10.107.169.37 with SMTP id s37mr3248529ioe.1.1490910234563; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:43:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? 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[2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l69sm191087itb.28.2017.03.30.14.43.53 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 14:43:54 -0700 (PDT) To: Tim Chown References: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> <731DBBD1-3FE5-404B-8711-69AF434C35DB@thehobsons.co.uk> <61272D8A-FC55-4178-80C7-12CE06FE80E3@thehobsons.co.uk> <09989c7b-7348-ef43-87b1-b50c812c2b61@gmail.com> <6F6673DB-A555-46B7-A66D-76C746BAAA4F@jisc.ac.uk> Cc: Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org Operations" From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <1f6f4618-3a24-d80d-02e1-65bb063606c2@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 10:44:01 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6F6673DB-A555-46B7-A66D-76C746BAAA4F@jisc.ac.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:44:02 -0000 On 31/03/2017 10:35, Tim Chown wrote: >> On 30 Mar 2017, at 15:37, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> On 31/03/2017 02:59, Simon Hobson wrote: >>> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>> >>>>> Exactly, if you apply the prefix mask to fe81::/10 then you get a p= refix of fe80/10 and a host identifier part of 1:: which means the addres= s isn't a network address but a host address within the subnet fe80::/10 >>>>> >>>>> AFAIK this is unchanged from IPv4 so it really shouldn't be a probl= em for anyone. >>>> >>>> Disagree. It isn't explained correctly in RFC4291 (or rfc4291bis) in= a way that anybody >>>> can understand. And it seems very hard for a machine to understand u= nless it also >>>> understands the context. (Hence the next point.) >>> >>> Are we discussing the same thing, or have I missed something obvious = ? I'm still really struggling to understand what the problem is - other t= han an inconsistency between different places where "link local address" = is defined. >>> >>> Surely simple bitwise AND/OR operations are exactly the sort of thing= s that computers are very good at. >>> >>> Take address, AND with a mask comprised of ten 1s and 118 0s, if the = result =3D fe80 then it's in the link-local block. >>> Take address, AND with a mask of ten 0s and 118 1s, if the result is = non-zero then it's a host identifier (address). >>> >>> Isn't this pretty well the same process as determining if an address = is within one of the provided on-link prefixes ? Take address, AND with m= ask with prefix-length 1s and the rest 0s, if result =3D=3D the prefix th= en the address is within that prefix, else it isn't. >> >> Yes, it's parsable. But it's very error prone when humans are in the l= oop. >> It's badly explained in the addressing architecture and not explained = at >> all in RFC5952. And the interpretation is context-dependent. >> >> Is fd63:45eb:dc15::/64 the address fd63:45eb:dc15:: (which happens to = have an=20 >> IID =3D=3D 0) qualified with a /64 prefix, or the prefix fd63:45eb:dc1= 5::/64 ? >=20 >=20 > I agree it depends on the context, and is badly explained.=20 >=20 > Are you suggesting RFC5952 should require fd63:45eb:dc15::0/64 for the = textual representation of the address, or=E2=80=A6? Section 2 of RFC5952= happens to omit examples with a trailing 0; they are all 1 :) I don't know the right answer. It looks like an ambguity and walks and qu= acks like an ambiguity. 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AFeK/H3dLjEsJ9v5G8x+iQSUSXnn8V7zI49RBTNUnuHWbEXT2nrHmC57Zb2+lxNMvycgisFXMFyVBx13tpCO0w== X-Received: by 10.84.216.24 with SMTP id m24mr1587141pli.96.1490912054848; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:14:14 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:14:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 15:14:14 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> From: Ted Lemon Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:14:14 -0500 Message-ID: To: Tim Chown Cc: Brian E Carpenter , IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045c79766bcd45054bfa0392 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 22:14:24 -0000 --f403045c79766bcd45054bfa0392 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We only need to require one mechanism. DHCP can be for devices that need more info on networks that provide it. On Mar 30, 2017 4:24 PM, "Tim Chown" wrote: > Hi, > > > On 30 Mar 2017, at 16:23, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: > > > > On 31/03/2017 04:05, Ted Lemon wrote: > >> On Mar 30, 2017, at 8:37 AM, Brian E Carpenter < > brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > >>> 1. The code knows how to find the DNS server in order to construct th= e > RA. > >>> or > >>> 2. Somebody or something has to configure the router with the DNS > server address. > >>> ? > >> > >> This probably depends on the router. For CE routers, the router migh= t > advertise itself as the DNS recursive resolver, and use the resolver it g= ot > from DHCP PD as _its_ recursive resolver. For infrastructure routers, > either it has to be configured automatically using DHCP, or automatically > using a provisioning system, or manually. I think that's too painful fo= r > us to specify, but we can certainly specify how CE routers behave. > > > > Agreed. I just want the semantics of the word 'implement' to be crystal > clear. Something like > > > > MUST have the capability to send RAs with RDNSS, and MUST have a > mechanism for discovering > > or configuring the appropriate DNS server address. > > It sounds like this is the spirit we want to achieve, i.e. without > specifying the mechanism. And assuming it=E2=80=99s a router that needs t= o send RAs > on a given interface. > > We could add words like this to Section 12 of 6434-bis, and sync that wit= h > draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-02, which Russ seems happy to do. > > We also then add the MUST for hosts/clients. > > But what about stateless DHCPv6 in support of determining the available > DNS resolvers? At present RFC6434 just says "An IPv6 node can use the > subset of DHCP (described in RFC3736) to obtain other configuration > information.=E2=80=9D Do we leave that as is? I have heard a couple of p= eople > suggest there should be stronger words there, but equally views the other > way. On that basis, leaving as is would be the default path. > > Tim --f403045c79766bcd45054bfa0392 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
We only need to require one mechanism. DHCP can be for de= vices that need more info on networks that provide it.=C2=A0

On Mar 30, 2017 4:24 PM, &= quot;Tim Chown" <Tim.Chown@= jisc.ac.uk> wrote:
Hi,

> On 30 Mar 2017, at 16:23, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> On 31/03/2017 04:05, Ted Lemon wrote:
>> On Mar 30, 2017, at 8:37 AM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:<= br> >>> 1. The code knows how to find the DNS server in order to const= ruct the RA.
>>> or
>>> 2. Somebody or something has to configure the router with the = DNS server address.
>>> ?
>>
>> This probably depends on the router.=C2=A0 =C2=A0For CE routers, t= he router might advertise itself as the DNS recursive resolver, and use the= resolver it got from DHCP PD as _its_ recursive resolver.=C2=A0 =C2=A0For = infrastructure routers, either it has to be configured automatically using = DHCP, or automatically using a provisioning system, or manually.=C2=A0 =C2= =A0I think that's too painful for us to specify, but we can certainly s= pecify how CE routers behave.
>
> Agreed. I just want the semantics of the word 'implement' to b= e crystal clear. Something like
>
> MUST have the capability to send RAs with RDNSS, and MUST have a mecha= nism for discovering
> or configuring the appropriate DNS server address.

It sounds like this is the spirit we want to achieve, i.e. without specifyi= ng the mechanism. And assuming it=E2=80=99s a router that needs to send RAs= on a given interface.

We could add words like this to Section 12 of 6434-bis, and sync that with = draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-02, which Russ seems happy to do.

We also then add the MUST for hosts/clients.

But what about stateless DHCPv6 in support of determining the available DNS= resolvers?=C2=A0 At present RFC6434 just says "An IPv6 node can use t= he subset of DHCP (described in RFC3736) to obtain other configuration info= rmation.=E2=80=9D=C2=A0 Do we leave that as is? I have heard a couple of pe= ople suggest there should be stronger words there, but equally views the ot= her way.=C2=A0 On that basis, leaving as is would be the default path.

Tim
--f403045c79766bcd45054bfa0392-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 16:27:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B11D01200A0 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:27:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id EqNxpcNkxPfm for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:27:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x242.google.com (mail-it0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7D32E129495 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:27:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x242.google.com with SMTP id w11so575854itb.0 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:27:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=S25D5leMWEW/KDWLvrG0ACfS1nOcv396KjqgEFBQsK8=; b=tPYYpxcmosdNOms84hoEnWEy9isg4GiYTiYhnNBQOcuEOlxNmfnCY7ryDyiq4tIETG D3in2AEEMqjVqvP/9H/n7hhXZW7bFWTtlqblBGUBOe/2Dfn+wiazvJFc2rlj0iqXfrrz Ri9kr7edJi6QEt5oFr2n5rh7wL4eDlz1XsLH3XYdE4UtOimuCcFbEWsKT6dMI/utscNa MxwwS7Q7o4DWGdxqNgiL1SCPxEcuoyl6pEqnFNwTKE2QAE/X5MIq7pVS87UCExgHwOHM 4qeOwwBkdJwDLWEB8TJltfUdnrrT1oEyfSW/BN7R30acPOv31asxgP2plB3dybBVZGn5 4DIw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=S25D5leMWEW/KDWLvrG0ACfS1nOcv396KjqgEFBQsK8=; b=k/gAf+/F8ER8kn8td5zEcUisfpFicAQ3bnwKSsFnxABOrDCytyjswB2s8SLl1G1dTt HuoKqvppbEPuVa2fIXPhaqGsfPHkUXC+fB2IobKZJCcsWAO0tPQsCgzTJnffGG1KCEXb 65kwV3xC4Ukxd2Kxwl2BZ4ceBo33qcbXURwcLEw7M54g2yiCJYzj9IuAi8QljQhuPUQc EV73UZwGWxQwfDG9MLn0dzQ8BjtqU5+kD8waIciYg//yy5dWatA2l6VKMnDt7cLWqk5B OlMVgrZotM+J4W0frhC4zarFRoinHl+6KZhhJ+lPIQ3YFpMJPVMENvNMgayXQPVk6nK1 AmVQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1CixaQ/EGs1WHAj2h4PJNYGqY3YI/42LU5FZZebL5cRl/G6oWrRlkQU9biFpUBPw== X-Received: by 10.36.184.129 with SMTP id m123mr138720ite.120.1490916435655; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:27:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? (t2001067c0370012828ccdc4c97036781.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s97sm2205270ioi.50.2017.03.30.16.27.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 16:27:15 -0700 (PDT) To: Tim Chown References: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> <731DBBD1-3FE5-404B-8711-69AF434C35DB@thehobsons.co.uk> <61272D8A-FC55-4178-80C7-12CE06FE80E3@thehobsons.co.uk> <09989c7b-7348-ef43-87b1-b50c812c2b61@gmail.com> <6F6673DB-A555-46B7-A66D-76C746BAAA4F@jisc.ac.uk> <1f6f4618-3a24-d80d-02e1-65bb063606c2@gmail.com> Cc: Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org Operations" From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <82861c7b-44d0-4459-3b9a-c84c3b6a81ea@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:27:23 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 23:27:20 -0000 On 31/03/2017 10:46, Tim Chown wrote: >> On 30 Mar 2017, at 22:44, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >> >> On 31/03/2017 10:35, Tim Chown wrote: >>>> On 30 Mar 2017, at 15:37, Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>> >>>> On 31/03/2017 02:59, Simon Hobson wrote: >>>>> Brian E Carpenter wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> Exactly, if you apply the prefix mask to fe81::/10 then you get a= prefix of fe80/10 and a host identifier part of 1:: which means the addr= ess isn't a network address but a host address within the subnet fe80::/1= 0 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> AFAIK this is unchanged from IPv4 so it really shouldn't be a pro= blem for anyone. >>>>>> >>>>>> Disagree. It isn't explained correctly in RFC4291 (or rfc4291bis) = in a way that anybody >>>>>> can understand. And it seems very hard for a machine to understand= unless it also >>>>>> understands the context. (Hence the next point.) >>>>> >>>>> Are we discussing the same thing, or have I missed something obviou= s ? I'm still really struggling to understand what the problem is - other= than an inconsistency between different places where "link local address= " is defined. >>>>> >>>>> Surely simple bitwise AND/OR operations are exactly the sort of thi= ngs that computers are very good at. >>>>> >>>>> Take address, AND with a mask comprised of ten 1s and 118 0s, if th= e result =3D fe80 then it's in the link-local block. >>>>> Take address, AND with a mask of ten 0s and 118 1s, if the result i= s non-zero then it's a host identifier (address). >>>>> >>>>> Isn't this pretty well the same process as determining if an addres= s is within one of the provided on-link prefixes ? Take address, AND with= mask with prefix-length 1s and the rest 0s, if result =3D=3D the prefix = then the address is within that prefix, else it isn't. >>>> >>>> Yes, it's parsable. But it's very error prone when humans are in the= loop. >>>> It's badly explained in the addressing architecture and not explaine= d at >>>> all in RFC5952. And the interpretation is context-dependent. >>>> >>>> Is fd63:45eb:dc15::/64 the address fd63:45eb:dc15:: (which happens t= o have an=20 >>>> IID =3D=3D 0) qualified with a /64 prefix, or the prefix fd63:45eb:d= c15::/64 ? >>> >>> >>> I agree it depends on the context, and is badly explained.=20 >>> >>> Are you suggesting RFC5952 should require fd63:45eb:dc15::0/64 for th= e textual representation of the address, or=E2=80=A6? Section 2 of RFC59= 52 happens to omit examples with a trailing 0; they are all 1 :) >> >> I don't know the right answer. It looks like an ambguity and walks and= quacks like an ambiguity. >=20 > It is, but I suspect in most cases the context resolves it.=20 >=20 > Question is how you=E2=80=99d recommend disambiguating, which I think s= hould be as text in 5952 were it ever updated, given it=E2=80=99s a repre= sentation thing. I still don't know the right answer. Brian From nobody Thu Mar 30 18:54:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1131E128954 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:54:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.697 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.697 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, FREEMAIL_REPLY=1, HTML_IMAGE_RATIO_08=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id U2g9Peloel3j for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22c.google.com (mail-vk0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82BCD127201 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id z204so75842979vkd.1 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:54:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version :in-reply-to; bh=R0igQJudfhUEY2VQCHUESBDMzLNOQIY125CW2j6xO14=; b=YVyKkR2+xiKQDLThAKcV8zNxSEFKRVyMuYBWwyD+ouVv6UQrXMMf1FGlj2Ayua2GF6 02mlebkYFzuFUNMx2LKNVwR8Y1YVtLjU6zdmA/gkScTG50pIEwJvCPETX8h5AIBD5r0J PCWJnMkF8pDy3Ac3m56/IeMzE5x8unhbhRRX8pGBNPezvnuQvc4iUnArsEoIgcfTCbH1 IgNZZaYbbtSsHvEeqPAuAon91jYgbYKki9XfbrA1czu/RxF5uXfnfdDOxI9aEGzTxCLv wSFBJlYErryA8m+BXzhfrQwpn4hZR5S/a5ijIhlazRfdaXtN2IkKHbP3Yu/l9nDMmoew iHxg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=R0igQJudfhUEY2VQCHUESBDMzLNOQIY125CW2j6xO14=; b=Mex6I+zgLkpI7Ug279cDtiGShoIPI5IdVnD5LRTDxISLc2cpuHYryYljDS6EfKdBIJ DSdu5opyUgXA7eAehewp2vPHFxUIEk6KH57Mz4xYTrqC30pLS8R6y/Wy70xaz/vqOAum 1kbepTdQWG5FZE++JLtErjzvOgO7rKdWZimeSH4x5RlAfB0nSlSX+KhQ3Fw6s/NjXPvJ yy5WB+2FyPUF8bT/EwHOjx5VcQUPYEljHPPd1UeKqC2N0Ni72iypYNDMA1M8JjXzGXYy AsGhsT7PSHiUo9UUmEyLH/SD6oCjzhVGD8oYaHIAMXSTU+vqosHhsZQ8vAnC/EjR/ZVG gzPg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1Wk2afxyxDyBVC2dJUXe4H+yZX8S50+SD8GH98PUIUJnBf+P8lJGQS5lieylzLIA== X-Received: by 10.31.15.82 with SMTP id 79mr247811vkp.156.1490925267507; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:54:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from MacBook-Pro-de-admin-alejandro.local (190-72-69-248.dyn.dsl.cantv.net. [190.72.69.248]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id w20sm1028732vkw.20.2017.03.30.18.54.25 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:54:26 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <34914036-eb1b-5913-5963-e72811f9c087@gmail.com> <757f76e0-2757-bbed-f465-d2773fba5345@gmail.com> <6e8142ca-8af2-15fa-8fd5-eed1101ba741@gmail.com> From: Alejandro Acosta Message-ID: Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:54:24 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.11; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F191365E81C7174CBA8A12A5" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food - IPv6 RTT vs IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 01:54:31 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F191365E81C7174CBA8A12A5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I tested on different Windows, Linux & MAC El 30/3/17 a las 12:06 p.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi: > > I had an error in interpreting the word "TTL" displayed rightmost in > ping IPv4, as the "time" displayed rightmost on IPv6 ping, in Windows. > > Did you use Windows for the test of loopback? > > > Le 30/03/2017 10:38, Alejandro Acosta a crit : >> >> Hello there, >> >> Regarding RTT v4 vs v6 I did something "interesting" recently, >> would like to know your thoughs. >> >> If you ping6 your loopback (lets say 1000 packets) interface with >> Windows or Linux, v6 is faster. >> >> Now try the same on MAC.., v6 is 20-25% slower. >> >> I did the above with many devices (and asked some friends) and the >> behavior was pretty much the same. >> >> >> MAC: >> >> --- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics --- >> 100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss >> round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.037/*0.098*/1.062/0.112 ms >> >> --- ::1 ping6 statistics --- >> 100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss >> round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 0.058/*0.120*/0.194/0.027 ms >> >> >> Linux: >> >> --- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics --- >> 100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 98999ms >> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.015/0.021/*0.049*/0.007 ms >> >> --- ::1 ping statistics --- >> 100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 99013ms >> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.019/0.031/*0.040*/0.004 ms >> >> Windows 10: >> >> Ping statistics for ::1: >> Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss), >> Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: >> Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, *Average = 0ms* >> >> >> Ping statistics for 127.0.0.1: >> Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss), >> Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: >> Minimum = 0ms, *Maximum = 4ms*, *Average = 0ms* >> >> >> >> >> El 30/3/17 a las 10:38 a.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi: >>> >>> Ah yes sorry! My reading mistake, I retract that. >>> >>> >>> Le 30/03/2017 09:36, Nabil Benamar a crit : >>>> Alex, >>>> >>>> The average values I can read from the capture screen are >>>> different from what you mentioned! ! >>>> IPv6 is faster. >>>> >>>> Best regards >>>> Nabil >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mar 30, 2017 15:23, "Alexandre Petrescu" >>>> >>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID: >>>> >>>> - on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, than >>>> on IPv4. >>>> >>>> RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net >>>> , averages 150ms; whereas RTT for 8.8.8.8, >>>> or for (ipv4) www.kame.net averages >>>> 40ms. That's maybe three times faster on IPv4. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Alex >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 30/03/2017 06:23, Nick Hilliard a crit : >>>>> No comment is necessary here: >>>>> >>>>> https://twitter.com/jaredmauch/status/847227063467560961 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Nick >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> v6ops mailing list >>>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing >>>> list v6ops@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>> >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --------------F191365E81C7174CBA8A12A5 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------0C00A7B78CA18CE4AE955C21" --------------0C00A7B78CA18CE4AE955C21 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I tested on different Windows, Linux & MAC


El 30/3/17 a las 12:06 p.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi:

I had an error in interpreting the word "TTL" displayed rightmost in ping IPv4, as the "time" displayed rightmost on IPv6 ping, in Windows.

Did you use Windows for the test of loopback?


Le 30/03/2017 10:38, Alejandro Acosta a crit:

Hello there,

Regarding RTT v4 vs v6 I did something "interesting" recently, would like to know your thoughs.

If you ping6 your loopback (lets say 1000 packets) interface with Windows or Linux, v6 is faster.

Now try the same on MAC.., v6 is 20-25% slower.

I did the above with many devices (and asked some friends) and the behavior was pretty much the same.


MAC:

--- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.037/0.098/1.062/0.112 ms

--- ::1 ping6 statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 0.058/0.120/0.194/0.027 ms


Linux:

--- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 98999ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.015/0.021/0.049/0.007 ms

--- ::1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 99013ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.019/0.031/0.040/0.004 ms

Windows 10:

Ping statistics for ::1:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, Average = 0ms


Ping statistics for 127.0.0.1:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 4ms, Average = 0ms



El 30/3/17 a las 10:38 a.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi:

Ah yes sorry! My reading mistake, I retract that.


Le 30/03/2017 09:36, Nabil Benamar a crit:
Alex,

The average values I can read from the capture screen are different from what you mentioned! !
IPv6 is faster.

Best regards
Nabil


On Mar 30, 2017 15:23, "Alexandre Petrescu" <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID:

- on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, than on IPv4.

RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net, averages 150ms; whereas RTT for 8.8.8.8, or for (ipv4) www.kame.net averages 40ms. That's maybe three times faster on IPv4.





Alex


Le 30/03/2017 06:23, Nick Hilliard a crit:


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62A531293DF for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:56:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.331 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.331 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3xR8rVsTkaKb for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:56:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9C791127333 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:56:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2V2uDmn115040 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:56:13 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 347D8201643 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:56:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 247D7200E6F for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:56:13 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.84.2] ([132.166.84.2]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2V2rISe002516 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:53:19 +0200 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <34914036-eb1b-5913-5963-e72811f9c087@gmail.com> <757f76e0-2757-bbed-f465-d2773fba5345@gmail.com> <6e8142ca-8af2-15fa-8fd5-eed1101ba741@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <0b428c44-c841-9790-2c48-0d21754e5978@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:52:56 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------3563BD713FE8E70EF8BBAA0B" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food - IPv6 RTT vs IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 02:56:18 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------3563BD713FE8E70EF8BBAA0B Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit And what application on Macintosh relies a lot on using a loopback interface? Maybe no Mac application uses it. Alex Le 30/03/2017 20:54, Alejandro Acosta a crit : > > I tested on different Windows, Linux & MAC > > > El 30/3/17 a las 12:06 p.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi: >> >> I had an error in interpreting the word "TTL" displayed rightmost in >> ping IPv4, as the "time" displayed rightmost on IPv6 ping, in Windows. >> >> Did you use Windows for the test of loopback? >> >> >> Le 30/03/2017 10:38, Alejandro Acosta a crit : >>> >>> Hello there, >>> >>> Regarding RTT v4 vs v6 I did something "interesting" recently, >>> would like to know your thoughs. >>> >>> If you ping6 your loopback (lets say 1000 packets) interface with >>> Windows or Linux, v6 is faster. >>> >>> Now try the same on MAC.., v6 is 20-25% slower. >>> >>> I did the above with many devices (and asked some friends) and the >>> behavior was pretty much the same. >>> >>> >>> MAC: >>> >>> --- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics --- >>> 100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss >>> round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.037/*0.098*/1.062/0.112 ms >>> >>> --- ::1 ping6 statistics --- >>> 100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss >>> round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 0.058/*0.120*/0.194/0.027 ms >>> >>> >>> Linux: >>> >>> --- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics --- >>> 100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 98999ms >>> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.015/0.021/*0.049*/0.007 ms >>> >>> --- ::1 ping statistics --- >>> 100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 99013ms >>> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.019/0.031/*0.040*/0.004 ms >>> >>> Windows 10: >>> >>> Ping statistics for ::1: >>> Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss), >>> Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: >>> Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, *Average = 0ms* >>> >>> >>> Ping statistics for 127.0.0.1: >>> Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss), >>> Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: >>> Minimum = 0ms, *Maximum = 4ms*, *Average = 0ms* >>> >>> >>> >>> El 30/3/17 a las 10:38 a.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi: >>>> >>>> Ah yes sorry! My reading mistake, I retract that. >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 30/03/2017 09:36, Nabil Benamar a crit : >>>>> Alex, >>>>> >>>>> The average values I can read from the capture screen are >>>>> different from what you mentioned! ! >>>>> IPv6 is faster. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards >>>>> Nabil >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2017 15:23, "Alexandre Petrescu" >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID: >>>>> >>>>> - on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, >>>>> than on IPv4. >>>>> >>>>> RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net >>>>> , averages 150ms; whereas RTT for >>>>> 8.8.8.8, or for (ipv4) www.kame.net >>>>> averages 40ms. That's maybe three times faster on IPv4. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Alex >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Le 30/03/2017 06:23, Nick Hilliard a crit : >>>>>> No comment is necessary here: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://twitter.com/jaredmauch/status/847227063467560961 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Nick >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> v6ops mailing list >>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing >>>>> list v6ops@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> v6ops mailing list >>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --------------3563BD713FE8E70EF8BBAA0B Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------75DF66EEE93ED39147F284CE" --------------75DF66EEE93ED39147F284CE Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

And what application on Macintosh relies a lot on using a loopback interface? Maybe no Mac application uses it.

Alex


Le 30/03/2017 20:54, Alejandro Acosta a crit:

I tested on different Windows, Linux & MAC


El 30/3/17 a las 12:06 p.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi:

I had an error in interpreting the word "TTL" displayed rightmost in ping IPv4, as the "time" displayed rightmost on IPv6 ping, in Windows.

Did you use Windows for the test of loopback?


Le 30/03/2017 10:38, Alejandro Acosta a crit:

Hello there,

Regarding RTT v4 vs v6 I did something "interesting" recently, would like to know your thoughs.

If you ping6 your loopback (lets say 1000 packets) interface with Windows or Linux, v6 is faster.

Now try the same on MAC.., v6 is 20-25% slower.

I did the above with many devices (and asked some friends) and the behavior was pretty much the same.


MAC:

--- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.037/0.098/1.062/0.112 ms

--- ::1 ping6 statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 0.058/0.120/0.194/0.027 ms


Linux:

--- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 98999ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.015/0.021/0.049/0.007 ms

--- ::1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 99013ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.019/0.031/0.040/0.004 ms

Windows 10:

Ping statistics for ::1:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, Average = 0ms


Ping statistics for 127.0.0.1:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 4ms, Average = 0ms



El 30/3/17 a las 10:38 a.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi:

Ah yes sorry! My reading mistake, I retract that.


Le 30/03/2017 09:36, Nabil Benamar a crit:
Alex,

The average values I can read from the capture screen are different from what you mentioned! !
IPv6 is faster.

Best regards
Nabil


On Mar 30, 2017 15:23, "Alexandre Petrescu" <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID:

- on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, than on IPv4.

RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net, averages 150ms; whereas RTT for 8.8.8.8, or for (ipv4) www.kame.net averages 40ms. That's maybe three times faster on IPv4.





Alex


Le 30/03/2017 06:23, Nick Hilliard a crit:


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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

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843B7129706 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:57:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -0.331 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.331 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mcX-7a4I-ZjW for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0CFCB129705 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 19:57:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id v2V2vRev115337 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:57:27 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 485B62011C9 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:57:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2.intra.cea.fr (muguet2.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.7]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 382EA200CFF for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:57:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.84.2] ([132.166.84.2]) by muguet2.intra.cea.fr (8.15.2/8.15.2/CEAnet-Intranet-out-1.4) with ESMTP id v2V2sUcn002738 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:54:33 +0200 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <34914036-eb1b-5913-5963-e72811f9c087@gmail.com> <757f76e0-2757-bbed-f465-d2773fba5345@gmail.com> <6e8142ca-8af2-15fa-8fd5-eed1101ba741@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <7f18db1b-1603-bbcd-7eab-93f984fb962e@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:54:12 -0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------EDE466567618389434FC9432" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food - IPv6 RTT vs IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 02:57:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EDE466567618389434FC9432 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit And what application on Macintosh relies a lot on using a loopback interface? Maybe no Mac application uses it. Alex Le 30/03/2017 20:54, Alejandro Acosta a crit : > > I tested on different Windows, Linux & MAC > > > El 30/3/17 a las 12:06 p.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi: >> >> I had an error in interpreting the word "TTL" displayed rightmost in >> ping IPv4, as the "time" displayed rightmost on IPv6 ping, in Windows. >> >> Did you use Windows for the test of loopback? >> >> >> Le 30/03/2017 10:38, Alejandro Acosta a crit : >>> >>> Hello there, >>> >>> Regarding RTT v4 vs v6 I did something "interesting" recently, >>> would like to know your thoughs. >>> >>> If you ping6 your loopback (lets say 1000 packets) interface with >>> Windows or Linux, v6 is faster. >>> >>> Now try the same on MAC.., v6 is 20-25% slower. >>> >>> I did the above with many devices (and asked some friends) and the >>> behavior was pretty much the same. >>> >>> >>> MAC: >>> >>> --- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics --- >>> 100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss >>> round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.037/*0.098*/1.062/0.112 ms >>> >>> --- ::1 ping6 statistics --- >>> 100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss >>> round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 0.058/*0.120*/0.194/0.027 ms >>> >>> >>> Linux: >>> >>> --- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics --- >>> 100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 98999ms >>> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.015/0.021/*0.049*/0.007 ms >>> >>> --- ::1 ping statistics --- >>> 100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 99013ms >>> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.019/0.031/*0.040*/0.004 ms >>> >>> Windows 10: >>> >>> Ping statistics for ::1: >>> Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss), >>> Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: >>> Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, *Average = 0ms* >>> >>> >>> Ping statistics for 127.0.0.1: >>> Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss), >>> Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds: >>> Minimum = 0ms, *Maximum = 4ms*, *Average = 0ms* >>> >>> >>> >>> El 30/3/17 a las 10:38 a.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi: >>>> >>>> Ah yes sorry! My reading mistake, I retract that. >>>> >>>> >>>> Le 30/03/2017 09:36, Nabil Benamar a crit : >>>>> Alex, >>>>> >>>>> The average values I can read from the capture screen are >>>>> different from what you mentioned! ! >>>>> IPv6 is faster. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards >>>>> Nabil >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 30, 2017 15:23, "Alexandre Petrescu" >>>>> >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID: >>>>> >>>>> - on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, >>>>> than on IPv4. >>>>> >>>>> RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net >>>>> , averages 150ms; whereas RTT for >>>>> 8.8.8.8, or for (ipv4) www.kame.net >>>>> averages 40ms. That's maybe three times faster on IPv4. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Alex >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Le 30/03/2017 06:23, Nick Hilliard a crit : >>>>>> No comment is necessary here: >>>>>> >>>>>> https://twitter.com/jaredmauch/status/847227063467560961 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Nick >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> v6ops mailing list >>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing >>>>> list v6ops@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>>> >>>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> v6ops mailing list >>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --------------EDE466567618389434FC9432 Content-Type: multipart/related; boundary="------------9D6F8935F6B2449986A3436A" --------------9D6F8935F6B2449986A3436A Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

And what application on Macintosh relies a lot on using a loopback interface? Maybe no Mac application uses it.

Alex


Le 30/03/2017 20:54, Alejandro Acosta a crit:

I tested on different Windows, Linux & MAC


El 30/3/17 a las 12:06 p.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi:

I had an error in interpreting the word "TTL" displayed rightmost in ping IPv4, as the "time" displayed rightmost on IPv6 ping, in Windows.

Did you use Windows for the test of loopback?


Le 30/03/2017 10:38, Alejandro Acosta a crit:

Hello there,

Regarding RTT v4 vs v6 I did something "interesting" recently, would like to know your thoughs.

If you ping6 your loopback (lets say 1000 packets) interface with Windows or Linux, v6 is faster.

Now try the same on MAC.., v6 is 20-25% slower.

I did the above with many devices (and asked some friends) and the behavior was pretty much the same.


MAC:

--- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/stddev = 0.037/0.098/1.062/0.112 ms

--- ::1 ping6 statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 packets received, 0.0% packet loss
round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = 0.058/0.120/0.194/0.027 ms


Linux:

--- 127.0.0.1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 98999ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.015/0.021/0.049/0.007 ms

--- ::1 ping statistics ---
100 packets transmitted, 100 received, 0% packet loss, time 99013ms
rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 0.019/0.031/0.040/0.004 ms

Windows 10:

Ping statistics for ::1:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 0ms, Average = 0ms


Ping statistics for 127.0.0.1:
Packets: Sent = 100, Received = 100, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 0ms, Maximum = 4ms, Average = 0ms



El 30/3/17 a las 10:38 a.m., Alexandre Petrescu escribi:

Ah yes sorry! My reading mistake, I retract that.


Le 30/03/2017 09:36, Nabil Benamar a crit:
Alex,

The average values I can read from the capture screen are different from what you mentioned! !
IPv6 is faster.

Best regards
Nabil


On Mar 30, 2017 15:23, "Alexandre Petrescu" <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:

pinging while on ietf-legacy ESSID:

- on IPv6 there seems to be longer RTT for a same service, than on IPv4.

RTT for 2001:4860:4860::8888, or for www.kame.net, averages 150ms; whereas RTT for 8.8.8.8, or for (ipv4) www.kame.net averages 40ms. That's maybe three times faster on IPv4.





Alex


Le 30/03/2017 06:23, Nick Hilliard a crit:


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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
_______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops 
_______________________________________________
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v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

_______________________________________________
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v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

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AD281129704 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:17:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.003 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.003 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dougbarton.us Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JUbX5rXWbrFd for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dougbarton.us (dougbarton.us [IPv6:2607:f2f8:ab14::2]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5D9171294B9 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:17:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.10.179] (rrcs-69-75-212-158.west.biz.rr.com [69.75.212.158]) by dougbarton.us (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 5DF7785 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:17:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=dougbarton.us; s=dkim; t=1490930247; bh=tkfB4grWVz1dWk3YZMNBOu+6OpQ2Q2gUbN9IZI9bNms=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=PfImJx4kqpUgYmnYoBgEWE2yrzMYAxSVlBQTuRMhwTc3AK1/7dIVv+zJpcrxZCZXN F3rAjgdRthYyDtS56b0tN2ayKD7XgSQHotSg5BvS3/FTUA3opBHAr4HuWvca/KEbAl Mi6SzrUG1J7VqHGntNmCGpiLGBbnCNEOENt++pg0= To: v6ops@ietf.org References: From: Doug Barton Message-ID: <6778e48f-250e-30ca-6d57-a8d87c8f0dd6@dougbarton.us> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:17:24 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 03:17:29 -0000 On 3/29/2017 4:08 PM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > Given the discussion today on draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration and > draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs , I'm wondering if we might find consensus to say > that host and router implementations MUST implement RDNSS. No. People who like it can implement it, people who don't, shouldn't have to. It really gets tiresome repeating the same arguments for over a decade. Let SLAAC be what it is, and let DHCP be what it is. Further, this seems like more fuel to add to the "You must implement SLAAC" fire, and there are still many of us who long for a day when we can have a DHCP-only network and still be considered "compliant." Discussing it as an option is great. Making it mandatory is the wrong way to go. Doug From nobody Thu Mar 30 20:39:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24CEC129721 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:39:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id k2gH0hhwMoXK for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x229.google.com (mail-pg0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3478E12762F for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:39:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x229.google.com with SMTP id g2so57174291pge.3 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:39:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Di8CM0HtLLdfX5i7AIdje/Q884vkWKYH26RJu98L7ZA=; b=DOn9x2/Z+hEL/M8lcTF+jSxK98eLnl5DygM0Hdo6AL9fXFBJpf1a7yi8UrMQ4gQ/63 LL+ASCdQkYGbmjiDSneR/3lOgHBaHMyCntpCm4Y7mltRp+mvabCbWDzS5kfgLTFHWVAr aJvaT0pd4DMh1Ey2rMZSz4+1O6pjS5ydvtnsMsEujABAvn91LE/HozljS4+t8mjeiIxd u0M7ZuATtDgHivJM3vwxClFp4GPT4FLuH5HEYDFQW9KxUmjmb/xMQ8t3/tXZYOfoIs4j QbHH8dH1cHZpBDixv7h2iF5k6OGXBEFoRXkea/9GPUerwqZqmBexqKzzc+I7CuVvfyEq ZdUA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Di8CM0HtLLdfX5i7AIdje/Q884vkWKYH26RJu98L7ZA=; b=NOQAn2dujx9heJaxWHpu/35qRBvQqJaKFJeXpQsbZpmc2z76SOClbcyL9Re1hZwvZ3 FUK590mvff3XX7pAxxoZMErF8z3PHFGRDJSxxH3q4e9OXbxKayOfnZmu2HadQh2BHIir zC+L+DBsB4796kVmdOnTCD5LkzAhaDeCVENUZq1AetctC+1Lofd75J/8eOyxtyUm/nGH OGhRAQXySjGEnh521hKBONsBsUjeiCRQ4Z8n62cQsebtDNCL6B2cT3VTJPxurZlk/no3 R6HCZWAsc5wjJSE48dECwVhmKt5ERlHSAE725s5AVzdAWFsSqzcBMFe+GXtZ+s66c4FU ylzA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3Wz4Vv3AF6/J1ud/HivIgZxXkxWpY6vCH0s0UONcyeHZh1qpC+fqwq7NRqC1qnCn/iKFPcIi/iaGDThg== X-Received: by 10.99.56.17 with SMTP id f17mr1164401pga.228.1490931544789; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:39:04 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 20:39:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <6778e48f-250e-30ca-6d57-a8d87c8f0dd6@dougbarton.us> References: <6778e48f-250e-30ca-6d57-a8d87c8f0dd6@dougbarton.us> From: Ted Lemon Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 22:39:03 -0500 Message-ID: To: Doug Barton Cc: IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c13695c1ca6f9054bfe8d7a Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 03:39:07 -0000 --94eb2c13695c1ca6f9054bfe8d7a Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mar 30, 2017 10:17 PM, "Doug Barton" wrote: No. People who like it can implement it, people who don't, shouldn't have to. Is there an actual argument in here that I failed to find that supports this assertion? Or is it just your opinion that it is the wrong way to go. ? --94eb2c13695c1ca6f9054bfe8d7a Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mar 30, 2017 10:17 PM, "Doug Barton" <dougb@dougbarton.us> wrote:
No.

People who like it can implement it, people who don't, shouldn't ha= ve to.

Is there an actual argument in here that I failed to find that = supports this assertion?=C2=A0 Or is it just your opinion that it

=C2=A0=C2=A0is the wrong way = to go.

?

<= /blockquote>
--94eb2c13695c1ca6f9054bfe8d7a-- From nobody Thu Mar 30 21:52:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 74F31128C81 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:52:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FJuZHFhq-V4o for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9005:57f::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51903128C82 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:52:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050096.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050096.ppops.net-00190b01. 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Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:52:42 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.32]) by prod-mail-ppoint1.akamai.com with ESMTP id 29fsutsf23-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:52:42 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 21:52:41 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:52:41 -0400 From: "Lubashev, Igor" To: Tim Chown , Brian E Carpenter CC: Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org Operations" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix Thread-Index: AQHSqOy/AzCzWeIXA0CQplnRf7fWe6Gta/OAgAAzcICAAA1hAIAACtcAgAB0yACAAC/XIA== Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:52:41 +0000 Message-ID: References: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> <731DBBD1-3FE5-404B-8711-69AF434C35DB@thehobsons.co.uk> <61272D8A-FC55-4178-80C7-12CE06FE80E3@thehobsons.co.uk> <09989c7b-7348-ef43-87b1-b50c812c2b61@gmail.com> <6F6673DB-A555-46B7-A66D-76C746BAAA4F@jisc.ac.uk> In-Reply-To: <6F6673DB-A555-46B7-A66D-76C746BAAA4F@jisc.ac.uk> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.38.68] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-31_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703310043 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-31_04:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703310043 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:52:49 -0000 VGltIENob3duIHdyb3RlOg0KPiBBcmUgeW91IHN1Z2dlc3RpbmcgUkZDNTk1MiBzaG91bGQgcmVx dWlyZSBmZDYzOjQ1ZWI6ZGMxNTo6MC82NCBmb3IgdGhlIHRleHR1YWwgcmVwcmVzZW50YXRpb24N Cj4gb2YgdGhlIGFkZHJlc3MsIG9y4oCmPw0KDQpObywgZGVmaW5pdGVseSBub3QgZmQ2Mzo0NWVi OmRjMTU6OjAvNjQuICBUaGlzIGNhbm5vdCBiZSByaWdodCBmb3IgdHdvIHJlYXNvbnM6DQoxLiBm ZDYzOjQ1ZWI6ZGMxNTo6MCBpcyBub3QgYSBjYW5vbmljYWwgYWRkcmVzcywgcGVyIHJmYzU5NTIg NC4yLjEuDQoyLiBBZGRpbmcgdGhhdCAnMCcgY2Fubm90IGJlIGRvbmUgaW4gdGhlIGdlbmVyYWwg Y2FzZS4gVGhpbmsgb2YgZmQ2Mzo0NWViOmRjMTU6OjIvMTI3Lg0KDQpUaGUgaW50ZXJwcmV0YXRp b24gaXMgZW50aXJlbHkgY29udGV4dHVhbC4gSWYgYW4gYWRkcmVzcyBhbmQgaXRzIHN1Ym5ldCBp cyBleHBlY3RlZCwgaXQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGludGVycHJldGVkIGFzIHN1Y2guICBJZiBvbmx5IGEg c3VibmV0IG9yIHByZWZpeCBpcyBleHBlY3RlZCwgaXQgc2hvdWxkIGJlIGludGVycHJlc3RlZCBh cyB0aGUgc3VibmV0IG9yIHByZWZpeC4NCg0KVGhhdCdzIGhvdyBpdCBjYW4gYmUgZXhwbGFpbmVk LCBpZiBhbiBleHBsYW5hdGlvbiBldmVyIG1ha2VzIGl0IHRvIGEgZG9jdW1lbnQuDQoNCi0gSWdv cg0K From nobody Fri Mar 31 00:18:33 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3BC35127342 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:18:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IiHglikyD_HG for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DDFB61205D3 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 00:18:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:baa:fa1e:dfff:fedd:15e] (unknown [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:baa:fa1e:dfff:fedd:15e]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B418C1BC37 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:18:34 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: <6778e48f-250e-30ca-6d57-a8d87c8f0dd6@dougbarton.us> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:18:12 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <73E59C4C-AC31-4456-B807-CE92490A5D51@thehobsons.co.uk> References: <6778e48f-250e-30ca-6d57-a8d87c8f0dd6@dougbarton.us> To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:18:32 -0000 Doug Barton wrote: > People who like it can implement it, people who don't, shouldn't have = to. But that is the whole problem ! As referenced some time ago, in the real world there is a problem where = there are two ways of providing the information, and two ways of getting = it. If router only does A and device only does B then device doesn't get = DNS info; similarly if router only does B and device only does A then = device doesn't get DNS info; in either case the problem is that you've = connected a device to an IPv6 network and "it doesn't work". SPecifically, in Microsoft's case, they found that they really did have = routers where "people who didn't want to, didn't" with one option; and = clients where "people who didn't want to, didn't" with the other option. = As a result, IIRC, they had to keep DHCP4 running just to provide = essential information to allow IPv6 only clients to work ! To avoid this, we either have to mandate that routers MUST do both A and = B; or we have to mandate that devices MUST do A and B; or as it being = done here, mandating that routers MUST do A on the basis that all = devices already do A. What it doesn't do is mandate that a network admin MUST leave it turned = on if he doesn't want it - but then the admin will have to deal with = devices that only do A and so don't support B. The alternative is to mandate that both routers and other devices MUST = support B; or both routers and other devices must support both A and B. = I've seen some pushback (similar to yours, but with more technical = justification) against mandating support for B (DHCP6) - mainly in small = footprint devices which don't have the luxury of space for the code and = the memory needed to run it. Personally I'd prefer DHCP - but then I've only ever worked on "small" = networks where I'm managing (or at least have a hand in) both the = network stuff (routers) and the services (DHCP and DNS). I've never = quite seen the argument for network and DHCP being separated to the = extent that DHCP shouldn't provide DNS info or even prefix info - I find = the concept of a network where one team can fundamentally change = something like the list of prefixes (or subnets in IPv4 land) without = reference to the people who manage services and devices on that network. But if things are going to move forward, there has to be a "standard" = setting a minimum requirement so that devices will work when plugged in = - at the moment there isn't that.= From nobody Fri Mar 31 03:22:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 911551293D8 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 03:22:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xCIRd-J1EhwB for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 03:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3631A1292F5 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 03:22:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1ctthc-0000H7C; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:22:44 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> In-reply-to: Your message of "Thu, 30 Mar 2017 17:14:14 -0500 ." Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:22:43 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 10:22:49 -0000 >We only need to require one mechanism. DHCP can be for devices that need >more info on networks that provide it. I think that in this particular case we should either mandate implementation of a mechanism or formally deprecate it. It seems that there are two camps that don't want to interoperate. If we can live without RFC-3646 then we should kill it. As a middle ground, we can tie it to stateful DHCP. I.e, a system that doesn't support address assignment through stateful DHCPv6 MAY leave out DNS configuration through stateless DHCP and instead MUST support RDNSS. Systems that do support stateful DHCPv6 MUST (or SHOULD) support the DHCP DNS option and also MUST support RDNSS. From nobody Fri Mar 31 04:09:17 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98F0F12949B for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:09:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sCPMSuRsl1Ef for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 20DBC129445 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:09:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v2VB9AHu071358 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:09:10 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local Message-ID: <58DE38D5.4050802@foobar.org> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:09:09 +0100 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.12 (Macintosh/20170323) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Simon Hobson CC: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" References: <6778e48f-250e-30ca-6d57-a8d87c8f0dd6@dougbarton.us> <73E59C4C-AC31-4456-B807-CE92490A5D51@thehobsons.co.uk> In-Reply-To: <73E59C4C-AC31-4456-B807-CE92490A5D51@thehobsons.co.uk> X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:09:17 -0000 Simon Hobson wrote: > But if things are going to move forward, there has to be a "standard" > setting a minimum requirement so that devices will work when plugged > in - at the moment there isn't that. it's probably fair to assume that everyone on this list understands the underlying technical issues. The problem is that the primary motivation for this proposal is not technical but political: namely the point blank refusal of specific companies - on policy grounds - to implement dhcpv6 in their host stacks, which as a side effect has caused serious deployment problems for end users on production v6 networks. As the ipv6 deployment problems that this is causing for end user sites can no longer be ignored, it needs to be fixed. There are several ways to handle this, including: 1. waiting for vendors and operators to support RDNSS at the router stack level 2. take a longer term approach of fixing the current limitations in dhcpv6 which currently make it a politically unfavourable tool to use for host autoconfig, then supporting dhcpv6 in the host stack 3. using the IETF policy process as a stick with which to beat everyone else into compliance with your own internal policies, disregarding the consequences - often scorched earth - for the rest of the v6 internet. Given the extensive practice of option #3 on v6ops, 6man and dhc in relation to SLAAC vs DHCPv6, I'm inclined to think that this will be the inevitable outcome of MUST for RDNSS, and that it will be used as ammunition in future both to shout down and block future consensus on dhcpv6 protocol development and to force vendors and operators down one particular protocol deployment path. I'm genuinely sad to feel it necessary to say this, but I think it needs to be stated explicitly. Nick From nobody Fri Mar 31 04:20:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE3A6129550 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:20:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id H1-NmyjMaOHb for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:20:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8F035129536 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:20:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v2VBKBuQ072656 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:20:12 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local Message-ID: <58DE3B6B.4040109@foobar.org> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:20:11 +0100 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.12 (Macintosh/20170323) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mikael Abrahamsson CC: Philip Homburg , v6ops@ietf.org References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <20170330113232.GD98455@ernw.de> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:20:19 -0000 Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: > Most people at the IETF meeting show up and their devices connect to > some network that is in the connection table. If they've been to an IETF > before, it's likely they have one or several networks in there and "it > just works" and they never check what SSID they're connected to. > > So I imagine it's not a conscious decision. https://www.ietf.org/registration/MeetingWiki/wiki/doku.php?id=94net ietf-legacy is unencrypted, so perhaps lots of people have set their laptops to auto-join open access networks (wow, nuts!). 802.1x on "ietf", hm. Not surprising that the other networks are not used widely then. Nick From nobody Fri Mar 31 04:26:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2AFA8129550 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:25:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Y6oGgqvT3hEp for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (patsy.thehobsons.co.uk [80.229.10.150]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8ACAE12955D for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 04:25:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at patsy.thehobsons.co.uk Received: from [192.168.1.55] (lan.furness.net [84.9.59.220]) by patsy.thehobsons.co.uk (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E31791BC37 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:26:13 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 6.6 \(1510\)) From: Simon Hobson In-Reply-To: <58DE38D5.4050802@foobar.org> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:25:51 +0100 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <6778e48f-250e-30ca-6d57-a8d87c8f0dd6@dougbarton.us> <73E59C4C-AC31-4456-B807-CE92490A5D51@thehobsons.co.uk> <58DE38D5.4050802@foobar.org> To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.1510) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:25:59 -0000 Nick Hilliard wrote: > Given the extensive practice of option #3 on v6ops, 6man and dhc in > relation to SLAAC vs DHCPv6, I'm inclined to think that this will be = the > inevitable outcome of MUST for RDNSS, and that it will be used as > ammunition in future both to shout down and block future consensus on > dhcpv6 protocol development and to force vendors and operators down = one > particular protocol deployment path. >=20 > I'm genuinely sad to feel it necessary to say this, but I think it = needs > to be stated explicitly. Indeed. I was composing a response to Philip's last message - but this = puts it better than I was. I don't see how you can deprecate SLAAC+RDNSS - otherwise there would be = just too many problems. If you mandate RDNSS then as you say, that will be seen as an excuse to = "cripple" DHCP. So there is merit in mandating a certain minimum feature set that = includes RDNSS in all routers and clients, and also DHCP in all clients = (a router doesn't need to support DHCP as long as there is a server or = relay on the segment). I can see this latter option being another = political hot potato != From nobody Fri Mar 31 05:28:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7EB25129669 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:28:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bcyq386UO7o3 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:27:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x241.google.com (mail-io0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E2C31129654 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x241.google.com with SMTP id f103so5742286ioi.2 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:27:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=BLT8TMdxiQwODjlLiUTPfTZAxQ+iqhim457ngIcZR/E=; b=gQt5hVQsFMJzrioHa7ScpVsr4GPeN2WAIyuowCaT8UCRgjKCw5W9LV40tSvvX6Q0Ex /W/rL12LacbSc2f3vWYPA7gCrf6yWmx/P8FlUtI4Ym7Xd+fqgiPQk+dASQDWlK17EbLB MyvEM1kd7y8JgOTFiBd473h5lfrNKVomcGexbWi6o2wzs2gqpFVaTlsWuwjHli6Rk26M Is+7q9xDXp6fqazn1XfqAZfklU/5nNHljrRWcWpsshJaXSo2EQ4z8EVnfrvzJtuamWTL UDDNGm8DIFcHJ7AmIqBcb4/98rKNxsvLvXNGonLGjw8L7ABv5dawGSgJuehl84A1Fz8R Waog== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=BLT8TMdxiQwODjlLiUTPfTZAxQ+iqhim457ngIcZR/E=; b=t9T6vP7f/+vAIIugSO3HkFpxtjO/utuzO9fU8c77/medPVZGXBsUzO8F4EuTssxUBT ec30+QeS+ay0mEXwqnBhGEjIqQs9mhOZtAs871Fa2iiHtk8hwO+DhA7WyqxgGW8Fg8vB Nu8M+LuCAAVIgH3nuQPnJmc5eypNW3665W3clyq99awkdWOkWiFqnuKmt4dFyI7tfV7S zEHKM7FzplW3lsOZy8bnl3pNLoyUdcJ/HYp5oxr+YhevmmGJBv8JaPP5PQs2TzobwW2w ds6FKfAyhpEHNfTSRPeUzglZskY/vrVjhmKOP7skPZs1NajJoHLxnzTQl4WJFgeePNmu qVsQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2OU/48twTYrrAA2R/Xd40hFFeXJHWqFZrCj4QsUdFm7eeVLq+/1uVjdHzzo5OPzw== X-Received: by 10.107.176.79 with SMTP id z76mr2860456ioe.223.1490963276100; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:27:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [31.133.147.88] (dhcp-9358.meeting.ietf.org. [31.133.147.88]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r30sm3033788ioi.56.2017.03.31.05.27.55 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:27:55 -0700 (PDT) To: Doug Barton , v6ops@ietf.org References: <6778e48f-250e-30ca-6d57-a8d87c8f0dd6@dougbarton.us> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <8ab82700-3590-4370-d15c-e41f6d6bb64f@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 01:28:02 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6778e48f-250e-30ca-6d57-a8d87c8f0dd6@dougbarton.us> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:28:00 -0000 Doug, On 31/03/2017 16:17, Doug Barton wrote: > On 3/29/2017 4:08 PM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: >> Given the discussion today on draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration and >> draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs , I'm wondering if we might find consensus to say >> that host and router implementations MUST implement RDNSS. > > No. > > People who like it can implement it, people who don't, shouldn't have to. The word "implement" is hopelessly ambiguous. I agree that a network operator should be free to choose whether they manage hosts via DHCPv6 or not. But that is not what we are talking about when we say "implement" in this thread, IMHO. So try this: "People who like it can deploy it, people who don't, shouldn't have to." As far as a vendor or open source developer is concerned, the suggestion is that they MUST include code for both methods. I'd be a bit more precise and add that they MUST both be enabled by default in hosts, and at least one MUST be enabled by default in routers, and they MUST be individually configurable on or off in all nodes. > It really gets tiresome repeating the same arguments for over a decade. > Let SLAAC be what it is, and let DHCP be what it is. > > Further, this seems like more fuel to add to the "You must implement > SLAAC" fire, and there are still many of us who long for a day when we > can have a DHCP-only network and still be considered "compliant." And that's why the wording needs to be very careful and probably not use the ambiguous word "implement" at all. Brian > Discussing it as an option is great. Making it mandatory is the wrong > way to go. > > Doug > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > . > From nobody Fri Mar 31 05:39:51 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AB386129487 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:39:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id X8gzKIL9dUf7 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x22b.google.com (mail-pg0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CCD4129683 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:39:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id 21so70320946pgg.1 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:39:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=4AkuID5hBne3m95NVBMwgo+/pw3y8QLfDCZfwPUY04Y=; b=tZaMCFckhvhr6bt2irhHqGbogAk46b+E4rs+ZG4tisNcyfk8CdL+txA+ZteZRMAPJr RnU3+rNOs93sxJlOyjvcsdqj3PwrfURpABlaodGBlnKsnffaMJAoUcfAsmMpzadL4uvA rxzEri74/DLpHDqXtq0n/xB8QfS5/DQrH+811KAc0sGIIbXbRKzyrIdHRuBQzWrnRVuf FPpNsziotvPmfV0vFheMZk+vPC+nGi6fR5BZ39HRWAzm8ZeD1n5UKBc8adlKZMBWib7G nuOFaI/Z0EIxmOCTo5rP6sL4mOnMsqvcpotXf/qcyZDWnqtkN1Z2Jaz5cgKsQylRYktl OcKg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=4AkuID5hBne3m95NVBMwgo+/pw3y8QLfDCZfwPUY04Y=; b=FXfWUjwDHzs6+TIHJwWVOYSzxSroWAz83vHo9+JQIgJCj7lXt2wsluTRxQHRyBullI dKrvqoEB79SU/pMYFy+WOd9RzqHTPWRmSIFkNXhT6Aqrk60yvItTPKRmW6FBZRCpb/B+ yYJze1nT5jMKu67K37hTE45yAimy+OfQUchxakyrvgKVYr5b7GQdMD3BCYvyxieexVVf QRZBBBsnpreHOlTvM4CSNffTYqPNZTuhuV6BoaEPXQUKLvh03SUEffZkpemwKF0So8qi 1dGvnBS1OuZCriLKwMogiQ0f73zJIpLKgavVJ/uswXfy8WC2mzKWKLL+DrxLin5fN+nQ gv3g== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3OKMU/iAGmR5EpNjIIWB/RrYgtAJVjvLl5dfOrMjOiO/KReNdxHrxAYW8dMNB4SvlMVCr3c0SKZRi7lA== X-Received: by 10.84.229.13 with SMTP id b13mr3349778plk.72.1490963987060; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:39:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:39:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:39:46 -0500 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Cc: IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c1a3e26d29189054c061a49 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:39:50 -0000 --94eb2c1a3e26d29189054c061a49 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Philip, forgive me for holding your feet to the fire here, but you haven't actually stated any reason why what I said was wrong. Stateless DHCP is useful for devices that need more information about network services than a DNS server list. But it has serious problems, e.g. with respect to user privacy. And regardless of the privacy issues, it can't replace ND without really substantial updates to every device. So saying that we should just deprecate it is just as wrong as saying we should rely on it solely. If there is going to be an MTI protocol for getting your device online, ND will work and DHCP won't. That does not mean we have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. The debate here is about whether we need an MTI protocol. I think we do. If we do, ND rdnss is the only option. On Mar 31, 2017 05:22, "Philip Homburg" wrote: > >We only need to require one mechanism. DHCP can be for devices that need > >more info on networks that provide it. > > I think that in this particular case we should either mandate > implementation > of a mechanism or formally deprecate it. It seems that there are two camps > that don't want to interoperate. > > If we can live without RFC-3646 then we should kill it. > > As a middle ground, we can tie it to stateful DHCP. > > I.e, a system that doesn't support address assignment through stateful > DHCPv6 MAY leave out DNS configuration through stateless DHCP and instead > MUST support RDNSS. Systems that do support stateful DHCPv6 MUST > (or SHOULD) support the DHCP DNS option and also MUST support RDNSS. > > --94eb2c1a3e26d29189054c061a49 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Philip, forgive me for holding your feet to the fire here= , but you haven't actually stated any reason why what I said was wrong.=

Stateless DHCP is useful for = devices that need more information about network services than a DNS server= list. But it has serious problems, e.g. with respect to user privacy. And = regardless of the privacy issues, it can't replace ND without really su= bstantial updates to every device.=C2=A0

<= div dir=3D"auto">So saying that we should just deprecate it is just as wron= g as saying we should rely on it solely. If there is going to be an MTI pro= tocol for getting your device online, ND will work and DHCP won't. That= does not mean we have to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The debate here is about whether w= e need an MTI protocol. I think we do. If we do, ND rdnss is the only optio= n.=C2=A0

On Mar 31, 2017 05:22, "Philip Homburg" <pch-v6ops-7@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:
>We only need to requi= re one mechanism. DHCP can be for devices that need
>more info on networks that provide it.

I think that in this particular case we should either mandate implementatio= n
of a mechanism or formally deprecate it. It seems that there are two camps<= br> that don't want to interoperate.

If we can live without RFC-3646 then we should kill it.

As a middle ground, we can tie it to stateful DHCP.

I.e, a system that doesn't support address assignment through stateful<= br> DHCPv6 MAY leave out DNS configuration through stateless DHCP and instead MUST support RDNSS. Systems that do support stateful DHCPv6 MUST
(or SHOULD) support the DHCP DNS option and also MUST support RDNSS.

--94eb2c1a3e26d29189054c061a49-- From nobody Fri Mar 31 05:57:27 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7E9F71296B9 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:57:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yae9qls8apr4 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6A3CC129487 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:57:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1ctw7H-0000EXC; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:57:23 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:39:46 -0500 ." Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:57:22 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:57:26 -0000 >Philip, forgive me for holding your feet to the fire here, but you haven't >actually stated any reason why what I said was wrong. The current situation where we have two mechnisms for DNS resolver information and devices just support one of the two is really bad. So we should make a choice, either it is mandatory for all devices to support both options or we kill one of them. So if we only mandate RDNSS and not DHCP, then we should make it very clear to operators that any deployment plans that rely on DHCP for DNS configuration are likely to fail. And then we can just as well formally deprecate the DHCP DNS option. But just to be clear, I'm perfectly okay with mandating both RA (SLAAC and RDNSS) as well as DHCP (IA_NA and DNS) to be supported in all nodes. From nobody Fri Mar 31 05:59:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D9FE6129407 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:59:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id W9qOJ37twWOt for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x22f.google.com (mail-pg0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 576C2126B6E for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id x125so70665131pgb.0 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:59:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=WqBs6uZBio4xG5cPOP9FhZeese30Ww+lygItmhtl9bw=; b=a5je5IVZzdpLTZ1KaDNkV7nlzwsguZ67HDSYImRg4Mm5EXrvnYYrfwaFk1OQ8/UZEu 16zYn/TG9VRlbB7WH1y31nHfHdye+w1h5zp1UfiP+lEX9DmXroHZfbqdsDKH4Wcjw4/o p/osJHhZjUvPkDXaSrlyrgKHX3+MFZnRM+ZcEAulnnTygW5KlqXR62yHeSi+h0GLWCLI axofCVQjJ0SBXCJaRaviqUerLT6DPR77OGmrQxvQhe65TFkU7g0JLk4CaSduFFEKqxYd Q/SlcKQ3eRSUREBZzdpaYmM4eOLms/kVPYXpSjSGYqAOUYQgJkZ9ivl/QcjLQ2UB8Ps5 fFFQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=WqBs6uZBio4xG5cPOP9FhZeese30Ww+lygItmhtl9bw=; b=YuGkoaRofBa7EiV3Edf+PYO63qoV49c+TIwDqNgOXZeW+B2XOcItcpHIsJzAX+m/N6 Ae8O5BzkUVOPod9RsM13c6R0U1jEGtOierycFJzAQe3dtmSIC35IyK50MuW54s/aIQlk r60/ZYHy7phOEH4sBEkucg4/nmzAPezF4o+M6Lxk0Jsu3YLm/5/yJSdwi73/b46ckvwC XcWx3dsd8qIeF2QvsEXrdce9y379SKr9jSOkM3KQqF76AhniEGCSlM0EvBDQtEcU1tM8 U0ZL3/jC9lGoK8rR4D9WnG0Ft/uq8rJe4W+VBXjGMtSaE1ypNIMO7eOdxlDOdapZxDzt 2RsA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2R+8F0fg8hfXPn99756GyhtBibJALheOIs82jR0dnBJMEqNur5YXYDOrNg7HgaPiK96LU6BEmO/Bulqw== X-Received: by 10.84.216.24 with SMTP id m24mr3430314pli.96.1490965195905; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:59:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:59:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 05:59:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:59:55 -0500 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Cc: IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=f403045c7976dfed57054c066200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:59:58 -0000 --f403045c7976dfed57054c066200 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mar 31, 2017 07:57, "Philip Homburg" wrote: >Philip, forgive me for holding your feet to the fire here, but you haven't >actually stated any reason why what I said was wrong. The current situation where we have two mechnisms for DNS resolver information and devices just support one of the two is really bad. "...is really bad" is not a reason. It is an opinion. What is the _reason_ that it is "really bad"? --f403045c7976dfed57054c066200 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mar 31, 2017 07:57, "Philip Homburg" <pch-v6ops-7@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:
>P= hilip, forgive me for holding your feet to the fire here, but you haven'= ;t
>actually stated any reason why what I said was wrong.

The current situation where we have two mechnisms for DNS resolver in= formation
and devices just support one of the two is really bad.

"...is rea= lly bad" is not a reason. It is an opinion. What is the _reason_ that = it is "really bad"?
--f403045c7976dfed57054c066200-- From nobody Fri Mar 31 06:05:37 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 62A44129407 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:05:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id l2K2eQ_aS39J for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:05:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B182C1294BD for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:05:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1ctwF5-0000EoC; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:05:27 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:59:55 -0500 ." Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:05:26 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:05:30 -0000 >"...is really bad" is not a reason. It is an opinion. What is the _reason_ >that it is "really bad"? The most well known case is Microsoft's attempt to go IPv6-only, just to find out that some devices only support RDNSS and no DHCP and the routers they have support DHCP but no RDNSS. For a 'next generation' internet protocol that is now more than 20 years old, that is an extremely sad situation. From nobody Fri Mar 31 06:08:52 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 837F9129407 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:08:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yE32aAVuMcfO for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from vapor.isi.edu (vapor.isi.edu [128.9.64.64]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D9EA8127010 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:08:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.158] (cpe-172-250-240-132.socal.res.rr.com [172.250.240.132]) (authenticated bits=0) by vapor.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2VD8EGc022929 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:08:24 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Joe Touch X-Mailer: iPad Mail (14D27) In-Reply-To: <58DE3B6B.4040109@foobar.org> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:08:14 -0700 Cc: Mikael Abrahamsson , v6ops@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: <4A182164-8366-47CE-BD7E-FE203765E61A@isi.edu> References: <58DCEABE.9020302@foobar.org> <20170330113232.GD98455@ernw.de> <58DE3B6B.4040109@foobar.org> To: Nick Hilliard X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Eating one's own dog food X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:08:51 -0000 > On Mar 31, 2017, at 4:20 AM, Nick Hilliard wrote: > > Mikael Abrahamsson wrote: >> Most people at the IETF meeting show up and their devices connect to >> some network that is in the connection table. If they've been to an IETF >> before, it's likely they have one or several networks in there and "it >> just works" and they never check what SSID they're connected to. >> >> So I imagine it's not a conscious decision. > > https://www.ietf.org/registration/MeetingWiki/wiki/doku.php?id=94net > > ietf-legacy is unencrypted, so perhaps lots of people have set their > laptops to auto-join open access networks (wow, nuts!). Or phones. Joe From nobody Fri Mar 31 06:09:58 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 840581294E4 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:09:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5KPv1Oyut36X for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:09:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x236.google.com (mail-pg0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C47EC1294C2 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:09:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x236.google.com with SMTP id g2so70038496pge.3 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:09:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=SgNoUBh6D84urcOto/s9pV83vKtQFU5fjbz2jG1Jyz8=; b=rRdX82TWdkGeAs/mAsDUKcAgY91byfmnfIgUX06SWNqjJY5Fm5K+w+TEB9kpjeS8yr mFRXk39LBcXAvqmpwFjsdZUCic5axrHHbfqYlIm24FShPKYdy09ZP7I7BzTajZSexNd3 lSnhaA7NRbR2wjFqr6B/w4zw0M5s/ndgJaWlUJlCxLWj81NimuHHorU2rPqTL6KHzZD2 QXn3554XlPd4H611lavudDdiYdN7mVa8QAf0fJO7y2nYpiZqQF1YI7G9TDGxNp7DS6qP FbgtQHynQ8ePEn2JIkOWI0fzPXCQyQbnmI4C2uR0GNvNg+J2nEmePVEAluHLZc3fTv/X Opeg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SgNoUBh6D84urcOto/s9pV83vKtQFU5fjbz2jG1Jyz8=; b=GzEIBAJWdzRAegwlos6XmdOwWrTIntP4BIdLJ9DvJmr8kksuQJErgN9ggD6sAGPNHT H4Mn+Ox1PC1OzhgeZCbj5eSnCkO/+y/LTa0pS7xfWy5QqAKmTIQYvHPsaJfH2Z5F0NN7 mpPWM9Tr5PaYiJrdzCQi85Kv0qG+o5zJGS8aOzwwB+OwVREapGoynYHPritAmQyIFlQ/ iF/GWv2rqrk+dfb9mnOi4G9vA5ltrP2mrUWMqgGuhWWWClLydnKQ/wikgxAfB7DyTKpX 5+0FtS2sfQTKroDAoT3LW1vuxOg8C/Fm5Eo9gWryKc0bt8f4bizX4G9u285giimDZKY4 C8tw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0maXl4Wp2kONtDjD2xfG+QR4QLB9ZbOUf6AQFdDoLqoJYoepFQ1KFOiQjVhBeBkNOguOKBr2VIP1XHXw== X-Received: by 10.98.210.133 with SMTP id c127mr2915964pfg.83.1490965787436; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:09:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:09:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:09:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:09:46 -0500 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Cc: IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11468cd221fe59054c068635 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:09:51 -0000 --001a11468cd221fe59054c068635 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I get that. So making RNDSS a MUST is a proposed solution to that. You are saying that we have to go farther and deprecate stateless DHCP. Why? On Mar 31, 2017 08:05, "Philip Homburg" wrote: > >"...is really bad" is not a reason. It is an opinion. What is the _reason_ > >that it is "really bad"? > > The most well known case is Microsoft's attempt to go IPv6-only, just to > find out that some devices only support RDNSS and no DHCP and the routers > they have support DHCP but no RDNSS. > > For a 'next generation' internet protocol that is now more than 20 years > old, > that is an extremely sad situation. > --001a11468cd221fe59054c068635 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I get that. So making RNDSS a MUST is a proposed solution= to that. You are saying that we have to go farther and deprecate stateless= DHCP. Why?

= On Mar 31, 2017 08:05, "Philip Homburg" <pch-v6ops-7@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:
>"...is really bad&= quot; is not a reason. It is an opinion. What is the _reason_
>that it is "really bad"?

The most well known case is Microsoft's attempt to go IPv6-only, just t= o
find out that some devices only support RDNSS and no DHCP and the routers they have support DHCP but no RDNSS.

For a 'next generation' internet protocol that is now more than 20 = years old,
that is an extremely sad situation.
--001a11468cd221fe59054c068635-- From nobody Fri Mar 31 06:16:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 775A91296AE for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:16:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OofnJ-PnvHJq for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D675D129699 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1ctwPP-0000IZC; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:16:07 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:09:46 -0500 ." Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:16:07 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:16:10 -0000 >I get that. So making RNDSS a MUST is a proposed solution to that. You are >saying that we have to go farther and deprecate stateless DHCP. Why? I'm saying that one option is to deprecate the DHCP DNS option. I didn't say anything about deprecating all of stateless DHCP. And the other option is to make support for the DHCP DNS option mandatory. I'm just saying we have to choose and not leave it open. From nobody Fri Mar 31 06:26:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4072A129503 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:26:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id LG2cH9ITe5fQ for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x22f.google.com (mail-pg0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D7D741294A2 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id x125so71301078pgb.0 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:26:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zBtfmtEYPCGOTr+fXm+zcYz7pDMlAA5CKBDd30/j884=; b=Vl2FQxVyjqGu8JzQqqZXHWyIz7a8udkkZr10WMaO379wMe7ME8SWJRfAeTP2guPCEL nulg8/O0mLF5J5LkDcabCgMvLBQaG72FeANGf5gJ9R7QkdltOG8x2/E51vzXGRW40EG/ VOZTN4zmwbkaqED+8L6+HwkEBdlOxaH9IY2wi4lyI+N9ahRvUc6psyg7R5wfluQpi6p7 nq5UuK7y0sLlF59bu8fU/YqnxDZ23d6ivI6HoTZ0cYtV0Sn5DKpfeV26ILpgu5ytnx/s 2/1MW97MGBYipFBKae6tKhf3x7zn8P33IpT2jMWzgE7EzLR/8/Rmvd2ZWDP2BSc/X83T FBXw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zBtfmtEYPCGOTr+fXm+zcYz7pDMlAA5CKBDd30/j884=; b=DEtUZz6t6cESOEbzTlPMLSyFWCeq/FoVajQMFDKCW5Rt6xLtu/6wPVQbMwhGtHchDq YCKp9yBzLA8tv2tMb6sBAvglg1iS4n+pdt2ZzRbXGAASKZLepcZ+3zylq9eqvXCwpsJC M50sJoqzhNleRlnC7/SFFij6HbeltrkqT7+ptIOX0fouPc8blF5cEt9uxDU9DfmqKG0+ VKXuIt94XmBhU5mxAs14qXpZRlErn7eAM5GGRaygpXg8WCnVpkv8LzMSXd6LNzCF+Fzs a9XKfqVJ5bcLeXAHUhC3QEDYwB+HDlmO/iHxCIz8yd+4QxLJmI1h/yMbu2taWvQXFhIQ IsHQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1eY43u9h4gmrmIT5xRSR6FMDRjlRyRRpH9mULtg218aIArLCe3R0CoYll1ZklWTEm74u2cucPd1uor1Q== X-Received: by 10.84.195.129 with SMTP id j1mr3616323pld.88.1490966801531; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:26:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:26:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:26:40 -0500 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Cc: IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0ef36293f406054c06c234 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:26:43 -0000 --94eb2c0ef36293f406054c06c234 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Mar 31, 2017 08:16, "Philip Homburg" wrote: >I get that. So making RNDSS a MUST is a proposed solution to that. You are >saying that we have to go farther and deprecate stateless DHCP. Why? I'm saying that one option is to deprecate the DHCP DNS option. I didn't say anything about deprecating all of stateless DHCP. And the other option is to make support for the DHCP DNS option mandatory. I'm just saying we have to choose and not leave it open. Okay, now I understand. This would prevent networks from requiring stateful DHCP. So we can't do it. --94eb2c0ef36293f406054c06c234 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Mar 31, 2017 08:16, "Philip Homburg" <pch-v6ops-7@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:
>I= get that. So making RNDSS a MUST is a proposed solution to that. You are >saying that we have to go farther and deprecate stateless DHCP. Why?
I'm saying that one option is to deprecate the DHCP DNS option. I= didn't
say anything about deprecating all of stateless DHCP.

And the other option is to make support for the DHCP DNS option mandatory.<= br>
I'm just saying we have to choose and not leave it open.

Okay, now= I understand. This would prevent networks from requiring stateful DHCP. So= we can't do it.=C2=A0

--94eb2c0ef36293f406054c06c234-- From nobody Fri Mar 31 06:46:44 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29C0A129842 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:46:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=umn.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mnPyh8XHt_gk for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:46:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta-p7.oit.umn.edu (mta-p7.oit.umn.edu [134.84.196.207]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFBBC129873 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mta-p7.oit.umn.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7A906812 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:46:26 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at umn.edu Received: from mta-p7.oit.umn.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mta-p7.oit.umn.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id akdNWm6YFrte for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:46:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail-vk0-f69.google.com (mail-vk0-f69.google.com [209.85.213.69]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mta-p7.oit.umn.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3E1BEC06 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:46:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mail-vk0-f69.google.com with SMTP id p66so33049169vkd.5 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:46:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=umn.edu; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Fi4BUiP1O+2RvpFZgBUWfjxpCb6v0urCGXqISfN+6Nk=; b=f2RXldvbNRL/Vu2IpSokpumlmisflsvFFCGM5pMcon6d/Wvd/qe4bhNkcp8T45Hgb4 pviy9DUPIV86kiTQf5Rb70OGI+wpkjHG7mp0E5BKq2pC0/LXBUplOnvAontx19m9k6SP iLVroq9nXHL3Xb5pg9NBcwthWuPpacOHf+DNyc5Nv+wjHBaG9iYQktN4ZofTWO8hl94B E5uNkqV+ZK/0/62HLUwBHmH0FiTDjVMXxRdogeffPdQ5lNBM5Txqr2l0lfdi9fDpLRH6 0VbY1BbF4pZEYD7sYXB910VqCQtx3fHj9Si8NxImdILrtk6kP5JLGtb6saoRMidrzNxj gFpQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Fi4BUiP1O+2RvpFZgBUWfjxpCb6v0urCGXqISfN+6Nk=; b=Cx8V/K9yyvbbPk/Hzgz7QWVyMLy10+dXvZM479+AcI99N4Q230i/0cuk27/tAIXoIk /YvpsMXYimonHdsJTKzPdLgUzVnIRveoQayPbN8PHIB/DSHrkbvQ330QGKIBQHsAN8f5 j21mc9t1gxT0LEqR33Xq3swh6YU/ehYN3pjLOl8m+WmZl0F7nuvMTRAHQrqfNfgsxqiO rIfZCYHFsti0s+7nDjnV/r7VBXxbj7nu24GHivKUArs1uCvBCWkx5bFOccHPO2WlbApu tRWXQoVcw5bMsNCRIZpkElUb5LTEbDHyifQxcZbmvY8iLGlEigaMB7thV2Eim54ec6ev iwqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3lGOUftLr/ob+5gnRprq4tWQnHhx4RaRl9qJPnhfFX67XAzTUR7N+haUq8+d2kf1r71JTnKCH3+CnOIUv0MwZC6SSysG7YbUARnTOnESI8uAvIsFi7xlL/nILp2pZSqyj5Nmr2QDgR8Eo7 X-Received: by 10.159.34.8 with SMTP id 8mr1603971uad.108.1490967985414; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:46:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.159.34.8 with SMTP id 8mr1603957uad.108.1490967984920; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:46:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.144.27 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:46:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> From: David Farmer Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:46:24 -0500 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Cc: V6 Ops List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113d00801cf661054c0709d2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:46:41 -0000 --001a113d00801cf661054c0709d2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Philip Homburg wrote: > >Philip, forgive me for holding your feet to the fire here, but you haven't > >actually stated any reason why what I said was wrong. > > The current situation where we have two mechnisms for DNS resolver > information > and devices just support one of the two is really bad. > I agree the current situation is bad. > So we should make a choice, either it is mandatory for all devices to > support both options or we kill one of them. > I wouldn't go quite that far, personally. > So if we only mandate RDNSS and not DHCP, then we should make it very clear > to operators that any deployment plans that rely on DHCP for DNS > configuration > are likely to fail. And then we can just as well formally deprecate the > DHCP > DNS option. > > But just to be clear, I'm perfectly okay with mandating both RA (SLAAC and > RDNSS) as well as DHCP (IA_NA and DNS) to be supported in all nodes. > I'd like to see both RDNSS and DHCPv6 required too. But I'd be willing to compromise a little, requiring RDNSS for "all" hosts and routers, and then maybe a more qualified requirement for DHCPv6, such as for hosts and routers "intended for enterprise use". This way a developer has an out to not support DHCPv6 if they choose, but there are consequences. Not supporting DHCPv6 becomes tantamount to admitting that a device is not intended or suitable for enterprise use, or in other words is only a consumer device. I just had an idea, what if we crated an new hybrid operating mode of DHCPv6 IA_NA for stable addresses and SLAAC for temporary addresses, using RA flags of A=0, M=1, therefore requiring use of IA_NA, but created a new DHCPv6 option that says that despite the A=0 flag that SLACC may be used for the generation of temporary addresses. This would give enterprise network operators a level of control for addresses that are intended to provide services (act as servers), maybe allowing DHCPv6 as a control plane for provisioning reverse DNS, poking appropriate holes in firewalls, etc... While at the same time allowing rapid generation of addresses that access services (act as clients). Thanks. -- =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer@umn.edu Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 =============================================== --001a113d00801cf661054c0709d2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 7:57 AM, Philip Homburg <<= a href=3D"mailto:pch-v6ops-7@u-1.phicoh.com" target=3D"_blank">pch-v6ops-7@= u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:
>= Philip, forgive me for holding your feet to the fire here, but you haven= 9;t
>actually stated any reason why what I said was wrong.

The current situation where we have two mechnisms for DNS resolver informat= ion
and devices just support one of the two is really bad.

I agree the current situation is bad.
=C2=A0
So we should make a choice, either it is mandatory for all devices to
support both options or we kill one of them.

I wouldn't go quite that far, personally.
=C2=A0
<= blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px= #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"> So if we only mandate RDNSS and not DHCP, then we should make it very clear=
to operators that any deployment plans that rely on DHCP for DNS configurat= ion
are likely to fail. And then we can just as well formally deprecate the DHC= P
DNS option.

But just to be clear, I'm perfectly okay with mandating both RA (SLAAC = and
RDNSS) as well as DHCP (IA_NA and DNS) to be supported in all nodes.

I'd like to see both RDNSS and DHCPv6 req= uired too.=C2=A0 But I'd be willing to compromise a little, requiring R= DNSS for "all" hosts and routers, and then maybe a more qualified= requirement for DHCPv6, such as for hosts and routers "intended for e= nterprise use".=C2=A0 This way a developer has an out to not support D= HCPv6 if they choose, but there are consequences.=C2=A0 Not supporting DHCP= v6 becomes tantamount to admitting that a device is not intended or suitabl= e for enterprise use, or in other words is only a consumer device. =C2=A0 = =C2=A0

I just had an idea, what if we crated an ne= w hybrid operating mode of DHCPv6 IA_NA for stable addresses and SLAAC for = temporary addresses, using RA flags of A=3D0, M=3D1, therefore requiring us= e of IA_NA, but created a new DHCPv6 option that says that despite the A=3D= 0 flag that SLACC may be used for the generation of temporary addresses.=C2= =A0 This would give enterprise network operators a level of control for add= resses that are intended to provide services (act as servers), maybe allowi= ng DHCPv6 as a control plane for provisioning reverse DNS, poking appropria= te holes in firewalls, etc...=C2=A0 While at the same time allowing rapid g= eneration of addresses that access services (act as clients). =C2=A0 =C2=A0=

Thanks.=C2=A0

--
=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
David Farmer= =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Email:farmer@umn.edu
Network= ing & Telecommunication Services
Office of Information TechnologyUniversity of Minnesota=C2=A0=C2=A0
2218 University Ave SE=C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phone: 612-626-0815
Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029=C2=A0= =C2=A0 Cell: 612-812-9952
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
--001a113d00801cf661054c0709d2-- From nobody Fri Mar 31 06:58:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9F6021294C4 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:58:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G9xxVNz10laI for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:58:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo.hq.phicoh.net [130.37.15.35]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 31F11129477 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 06:58:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1ctx4b-0000HBC; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:58:41 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org X-Cc: Philip Homburg , IPv6 Ops WG From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:26:40 -0500 ." Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:58:39 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 13:58:47 -0000 >I'm saying that one option is to deprecate the DHCP DNS option. I didn't >say anything about deprecating all of stateless DHCP. > >And the other option is to make support for the DHCP DNS option mandatory. > >I'm just saying we have to choose and not leave it open. > > >Okay, now I understand. This would prevent networks from requiring stateful >DHCP. So we can't do it. So my compromise position was: - If a host gets an address using IA_NA it MUST support the DHCP DNS option. - All nodes have to support RDNSS. This way there is a simple message for operators, either you use SLAAC and RDNSS or you can use DHCP for both addressing and DNS. Don't try to mix and match. From nobody Fri Mar 31 07:05:38 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF5D6129502 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:05:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mWjOZL4Hj4cn for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x22e.google.com (mail-pg0-x22e.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCEBA1297BF for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:05:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x22e.google.com with SMTP id x125so72234428pgb.0 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:05:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=zlra7AUqbkyUCDD+a9R63YnCpBZ6OW+69Jgb1ZZvS/k=; b=xtqqL8x9CWyT/Tr76tKgjU/GcyxoEO47IjJmpYA8Zg/kZsuu81BnQHgqZvCZbQIaRU 1OCe5TtEK7gM6uuckxvrzeKaxPj/VXA8+bPc8otnEix9rhZobflGv5DKyHO7W2FYPlfx HGzfzlm6hqVjdvqVsxzweCIUk9P0mAyjwmnXNTrFR16AL8u44D8p98rf0u7jSqmUJ8u8 E3gH0gWjj25/09ijpDK01TFvdM+47u2UKFKj4kqG6c5ZzUCFAgFDc1xyPkNqI9Q7YIyD 7SsIpeE/7AX+0ba376vDAfr3uMZQGqcRDq/EA3CEKTfprZjW5tf3+mPnPdRoeGdBr+02 CldA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=zlra7AUqbkyUCDD+a9R63YnCpBZ6OW+69Jgb1ZZvS/k=; b=Yd9Jy/Zp4ZRwaPNaBGusd20+yOaZh81XJJvBz/TyFV9XzCMbrwTmWI5XS1+V9Vu3nd Zj8m3A/nDgjaDGEu8Lof5R6xTPq+7zYNVM+UyadY/8LCb/qCgi3xE6ZjkD25kuVynJ8V E3wFtMNZlTesqT59NSvI0cm/NIzUeUYACBqEzj22GCpubndbVDl6HmWvGsJPCSLuHoY9 DwjeoD7YP7N2WFwyATBmuV/+bt++dIdVldw0riyN1kFzMUuX7o53jY9dNeXt7lKGypyw 2DrXWqyVrDfFNvNc8B2N8kRdLza7EQcjpKhb6mu0Gyt5ERPQpVe81Xh0/ebACAC2B+H3 qzYg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1AELZkatYFZr21tVv4w7LBY73dTcre4MrK1Wbsc+7HakWkXQWgkVjOAD+ZfAV9mrxV8jfdu+f6tX5YyQ== X-Received: by 10.99.43.212 with SMTP id r203mr3624250pgr.114.1490969134434; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:05:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:05:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:05:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:05:33 -0500 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Cc: IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114599b6a12094054c074d15 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:05:37 -0000 --001a114599b6a12094054c074d15 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 I'm okay with that, but I'd be perfectly happy with just requiring rdnss. I think the enterprise thing is really a side issue. We don't have to make that change. On Mar 31, 2017 08:58, "Philip Homburg" wrote: >I'm saying that one option is to deprecate the DHCP DNS option. I didn't >say anything about deprecating all of stateless DHCP. > >And the other option is to make support for the DHCP DNS option mandatory. > >I'm just saying we have to choose and not leave it open. > > >Okay, now I understand. This would prevent networks from requiring stateful >DHCP. So we can't do it. So my compromise position was: - If a host gets an address using IA_NA it MUST support the DHCP DNS option. - All nodes have to support RDNSS. This way there is a simple message for operators, either you use SLAAC and RDNSS or you can use DHCP for both addressing and DNS. Don't try to mix and match. --001a114599b6a12094054c074d15 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I'm okay with that, but I'd be perfectly happy wi= th just requiring rdnss. I think the enterprise thing is really a side issu= e. We don't have to make that change.=C2=A0

On Mar 31, 2017 08:58, "Philip Hom= burg" <pch-v6ops-7@u-= 1.phicoh.com> wrote:
>I'm saying that one option is to depre= cate the DHCP DNS option. I didn't
>say anything about deprecating all of stateless DHCP.
>
>And the other option is to make support for the DHCP DNS option mandato= ry.
>
>I'm just saying we have to choose and not leave it open.
>
>
>Okay, now I understand. This would prevent networks from requiring stat= eful
>DHCP. So we can't do it.

So my compromise position was:
- If a host gets an address using IA_NA it MUST support the DHCP DNS option= .
- All nodes have to support RDNSS.

This way there is a simple message for operators, either you use SLAAC and<= br> RDNSS or you can use DHCP for both addressing and DNS. Don't try to mix= and
match.

--001a114599b6a12094054c074d15-- From nobody Fri Mar 31 07:18:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 98B2B12989F for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:18:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 1taUnFK8h9Dp for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9753B1296C5 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:18:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1ctxNf-0000GMC; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:18:23 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:46:24 -0500 ." Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:18:19 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:18:26 -0000 >I'd like to see both RDNSS and DHCPv6 required too. But I'd be willing to >compromise a little, requiring RDNSS for "all" hosts and routers, and then >maybe a more qualified requirement for DHCPv6, such as for hosts and >routers "intended for enterprise use". This way a developer has an out to >not support DHCPv6 if they choose, but there are consequences. Not >supporting DHCPv6 becomes tantamount to admitting that a device is not >intended or suitable for enterprise use, or in other words is only a >consumer device. I can see 3 reasons for not doing DHCPv6: 1) The device is too constrained. Obviously, if a device is too small to support both SLAAC/RDNSS and DHCP IA_NA/DNS then we have to compromise. 2) The implementor is lazy. I certainly fall in that category. But that's no excuse. 3) There is something about DHCPv6 not working well enough. The last one is the tricky one. It not that currently DHCPv6 IA_NA, etc. doesn't work. And it is the most complex organisations (big enterprises) that really want to do DHCPv6. There is some aspect that operators are stupid and supporting only SLAAC gets around that. In the long term that may be a risky proposition. Then there is an argument that DHCPv6 may work today, but cannot handle future requirements. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be an experiment that demonstrates that for some reasonable assumptions about the future, DHCPv6 doesn't work. >I just had an idea, what if we crated an new hybrid operating mode of >DHCPv6 IA_NA for stable addresses and SLAAC for temporary addresses, using >RA flags of A=0, M=1, therefore requiring use of IA_NA, but created a new >DHCPv6 option that says that despite the A=0 flag that SLACC may be used >for the generation of temporary addresses. This would give enterprise >network operators a level of control for addresses that are intended to >provide services (act as servers), maybe allowing DHCPv6 as a control plane >for provisioning reverse DNS, poking appropriate holes in firewalls, >etc... While at the same time allowing rapid generation of addresses that >access services (act as clients). As far as I know, servers are almost always configured 'manually' and are typically on separate LANs. Typically, DHCP is used to make sure that addresses can be traced back to devices. Allowing temorary addresses using SLAAC would defeat that purpose. From nobody Fri Mar 31 07:26:55 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A3BB6129418 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:26:53 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id e82N_tWXH2vu for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:26:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D05CD127A97 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:26:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x235.google.com with SMTP id z13so40694026iof.2 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:26:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=uZVg/68N7C1qebMRek5m5EoysFRhcClSAPAY/U6AKO4=; b=I3OA2rSg6uWaMuX0E7FwafhUJrDjpR7UBvQPT/BGmUND0h/XiBQgJyxidvlkmr/CC+ dxLpdiJX0fULaN3LoPvuRpdFdF0CyKfgIZwCJuY5jA2ud3YxH7R+xtD2opxc/+rWbgq3 JRYEEcYVi0r0Z2Fs/WSjhm+i28bJ9CTOyZrxzUM4IMelozU59MOd7FOLgIdXw57kPKjy 10UQx/WtyilX07/rRJT9rIM6++MDpMXgzDP/5uiPK1pmR7PYbz5R1GP8BPFgwQUpGX7I pigPof8MbF50l1DQ1SGtSEkHvKY/PuPWBnw0g352BnifuSiz2oaIM7znd+iJ8StL4IUH shMw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=uZVg/68N7C1qebMRek5m5EoysFRhcClSAPAY/U6AKO4=; b=sQMpuS/h8yp3THRNfJ5Lj4qGOAON3RXtF6wsyuv+toMR0scTkfctuxloefHG7ttCVl 1mFrWjo+talQ4LZKtpr6sB2/lJKVNkhrTDRuX5srvfJi9zgfPCAnI2CmkcDhyKcXhQah zs1uumUfCv8KBFff6maJfZfhYtizIXZgCH+9vrj3HC/NhWOvAuwOCmtjlLEeeIzWGwRR 9GctSfvaT1NkVcysHfYtK7JXMmSwBfcJBmamov4uhZQkwExPcirZLE5XIFTXmyQONyqj JGIDSz7Ew2OQeU4oBGvPXlSQZx7IRkWfA0ZYBfmZjRAynaLskUsQA28i1GrFYWFJ4j9T ByQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2XZhcDMMrVw4Lh4EGE263GsBN8BfaWAl6VLKqBwdMY2qb74spaSht0RCGVWUqdqmJxk6SDJx8rN7ts7g== X-Received: by 10.107.8.39 with SMTP id 39mr3231728ioi.189.1490970410227; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:26:50 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.184.197 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:26:29 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> From: Jen Linkova Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:26:29 +0200 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:26:54 -0000 On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Philip Homburg wrote: > I can see 3 reasons for not doing DHCPv6: 0) It requires an additional service to be operate/maintain for no obvious reason. It's expensive. > 1) The device is too constrained. Obviously, if a device is too small to > support both SLAAC/RDNSS and DHCP IA_NA/DNS then we have to compromise. > > 2) The implementor is lazy. I certainly fall in that category. But that's > no excuse. > > 3) There is something about DHCPv6 not working well enough. [skip] > Then there is an argument that DHCPv6 may work today, but cannot handle > future requirements. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be an experiment > that demonstrates that for some reasonable assumptions about the > future, DHCPv6 doesn't work. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-00 More specifically, section 4 of the abovementioned doc. -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Fri Mar 31 07:28:13 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D258D129851 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:28:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -3.8 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.8 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, RCVD_IN_SORBS_SPAM=0.5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=umn.edu Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2_hrL4bp84zv for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mta-p8.oit.umn.edu (mta-p8.oit.umn.edu [134.84.196.208]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E599F12989F for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:27:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (unknown [127.0.0.1]) by mta-p8.oit.umn.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7282ED18 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:27:59 +0000 (UTC) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at umn.edu Received: from mta-p8.oit.umn.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mta-p8.oit.umn.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id JLsE7ugJRS3g for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:27:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail-vk0-f72.google.com (mail-vk0-f72.google.com [209.85.213.72]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by mta-p8.oit.umn.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 406B1CEE for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:27:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: by mail-vk0-f72.google.com with SMTP id x65so33534769vkx.0 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:27:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=umn.edu; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=/5peoFsOqtUMXCEKLMVgBuXbE9psP/HWixEdWV2+sBE=; b=OPXQTtLEhy0evzFVQGFD8uqhmpdTV/NXf1akAchFOxykTTazMS8HS7an9tG4/eNgWJ QmjwHLo3rETPNJUcQr+T3u74XQHNk8kZ7jedHvXfBK28mngWdox9N2tWxspTMaHlosMA +sI9Ui4ZNYRQZpn/j0yIegY37RXV2CTW+lUIM3mI9iA30578Mesf29r2pz+vmKRLGdLB 87zA74HnKD6UAAAmzymjjlieOHI5ldnLZjTJnQ6bswaZqErdbz244abMVz0Aw+XDQn/v KzKmBG6dWTgMnlBQynC3cAR7lLQpuQa0ht2nYFCFxBq9H3wvRyBfNIUeEOKQtv0bIFtP 1Ahw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=/5peoFsOqtUMXCEKLMVgBuXbE9psP/HWixEdWV2+sBE=; b=GXyoboXjIW2ox7m/IUaeGVmPBbSFPPmodgdeCU7VewhW8okfYVjh6GnOJVOR36d1hc WPiWV0Xszl3d+qzhLSMH7dHs8Uhxnw62OkIbLKG8ZteG+55Oao/ALqJ1qwedoureq1AB b+FypsyGEgiXAvt3qXaWyHWDPxRpZo/YrgGZjdkr9jeCu6uLxij4C9qXBqcvt3jIIYfH VFRwNFlHRdV1M4HyorqZJC+8kTLYxu8p87kkZtcQPuoOmXKxgaAjI3sFgyD+MSy353oE bCOV5SpSSVVDRcmPy19cG97EK5r40qB/p+vrhKm+NNQ3UUUa6dybdWzf7lkJ2IwO9+Nb oJPw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2GRPEhyT9HvQa174tt0TUsgQoyr6A1Z6zUZEun7LJq4Tlt2rfmOs0xDFaL/ttNaXoqXCBtTCTYwPmbNy14XET172QPIOnQSDAS5zGqVkQeFFvXwvDORCXnOJ+PaTx8Ay/0A4j4HUh4gIpY X-Received: by 10.176.68.101 with SMTP id m92mr1457160uam.18.1490970478474; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:27:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.176.68.101 with SMTP id m92mr1457149uam.18.1490970478160; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:27:58 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.144.27 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:27:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> From: David Farmer Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:27:57 -0500 Message-ID: To: Ted Lemon Cc: Philip Homburg , IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114b2602b8ce48054c079d55 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:28:12 -0000 --001a114b2602b8ce48054c079d55 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Ted Lemon wrote: > I'm okay with that, but I'd be perfectly happy with just requiring rdnss. > I think the enterprise thing is really a side issue. We don't have to make > that change. > While logically they can and probably should be separate issues. However, the situation has gotten so bad that there is insufficient trust to allow an RDNSS requirement to move forward without something to ensures that such an RDNSS requirement isn't used as a future argument against DHCPv6. We have to get over it. Host/Network configuration is, and will forever be at this point, a multitheistic space. Let's just live and let live. It's time for all routers and general purpose devices to support both. I'm willing to allow highly constrained devices some flexibility. However, honestly there is no good reason for most devices to not support both religions. Thanks. -- =============================================== David Farmer Email:farmer@umn.edu Networking & Telecommunication Services Office of Information Technology University of Minnesota 2218 University Ave SE Phone: 612-626-0815 Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029 Cell: 612-812-9952 =============================================== --001a114b2602b8ce48054c079d55 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 9:05 AM, Ted Lemon <mellon@fugue.com> wrote:
I'm okay with that, but I'd be perfectly happy with just = requiring rdnss. I think the enterprise thing is really a side issue. We do= n't have to make that change.=C2=A0

While logically they can and probably should be separate issues.=C2=A0 H= owever, the situation has gotten so bad that there is insufficient trust to= allow an RDNSS requirement to move forward without something to ensures th= at such an RDNSS requirement isn't used as a future argument against DH= CPv6. =C2=A0=C2=A0

We have to get over it.= =C2=A0 Host/Network configuration is, and will forever be at this point, a= =C2=A0multitheistic space.=C2=A0 Let's just live and let live.=C2=A0 It= 's time for all routers and general purpose devices to support both.=C2= =A0 I'm willing to allow highly constrained devices some flexibility.= =C2=A0 However, honestly there is no good reason for most devices to not su= pport both religions.

Thanks.

= --
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
David Farmer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Email:farmer@umn.edu
Networking & Telecommunication = Services
Office of Information Technology
University of Minnesota=C2= =A0=C2=A0
2218 University Ave SE=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phone: 612-= 626-0815
Minneapolis, MN 55414-3029=C2=A0=C2=A0 Cell: 612-812-9952
= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
--001a114b2602b8ce48054c079d55-- From nobody Fri Mar 31 07:32:50 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48BBE129875 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:32:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.121 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.121 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_NEUTRAL=0.779] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id jEhm_3LisdK4 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp12.doorway.no (smtp12.doorway.no [212.125.205.195]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DA6B112986E for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from dware1044.doorway.loc (10.0.20.54) by smtp12.doorway.no (10.0.21.42) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1236.3; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:32:38 +0200 Received: from olen.dhcp.nlogic.no (84.208.27.142) by dware1044.doorway.loc (10.0.20.54) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1236.3; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:32:39 +0200 To: References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> From: Ola Thoresen Message-ID: <99e762f3-5246-2039-4b22-83e36293e61a@nlogic.no> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:32:39 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Originating-IP: [84.208.27.142] X-ClientProxiedBy: DWARE1041.doorway.loc (10.0.20.51) To dware1044.doorway.loc (10.0.20.54) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:32:45 -0000 On 31. mars 2017 16:18, Philip Homburg wrote: >> I'd like to see both RDNSS and DHCPv6 required too. But I'd be willing to >> compromise a little, requiring RDNSS for "all" hosts and routers, and then >> maybe a more qualified requirement for DHCPv6, such as for hosts and >> routers "intended for enterprise use". This way a developer has an out to >> not support DHCPv6 if they choose, but there are consequences. Not >> supporting DHCPv6 becomes tantamount to admitting that a device is not >> intended or suitable for enterprise use, or in other words is only a >> consumer device. > I can see 3 reasons for not doing DHCPv6: > > 1) The device is too constrained. Obviously, if a device is too small to > support both SLAAC/RDNSS and DHCP IA_NA/DNS then we have to compromise. > > 2) The implementor is lazy. I certainly fall in that category. But that's > no excuse. > > 3) There is something about DHCPv6 not working well enough. > 4) The manager does not want to do all the extra work of setting up a DHCP-server. It does not mean I am lazy. It means I don't need another service running, all the extra lines of config, managing pools and networks and so on. If all you need is an "ad hoc" network, and you don't need to know who the clients are, or control the assignment of addresses and don't care as long as they get on "the internet" somehow. Why bother with DHCP? > There is some aspect that operators are stupid and supporting only SLAAC > gets around that. In the long term that may be a risky proposition. You dont need to be "stupid". For "IoT" (for whatever that term i worth) it makes no sense to have to set up DHCP just to get the devices online. Even if they have enough resources to run a dhcp client, it should not be necessary. /Ola (T) From nobody Fri Mar 31 07:45:11 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C3F5112987B for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:45:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bZgP1upACXOn for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1450B126B7F for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:45:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1ctxnY-0000EXC; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:45:08 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> <99e762f3-5246-2039-4b22-83e36293e61a@nlogic.no> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:32:39 +0200 ." <99e762f3-5246-2039-4b22-83e36293e61a@nlogic.no> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:45:07 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:45:11 -0000 >4) The manager does not want to do all the extra work of setting up a >DHCP-server. It does not mean I am lazy. It means I don't need another >service running, all the extra lines of config, managing pools and >networks and so on. Note that I was talking about DHCP support in devices. By making sure that all devices (routers and hosts) support both SLAAC and DHCP it becomes an operational choice to use SLAAC or DHCP. It is only when some devices support only one option that an operator is forced to use that option even if it is not the best one. >You dont need to be "stupid". For "IoT" (for whatever that term i >worth) it makes no sense to have to set up DHCP just to get the devices >online. Even if they have enough resources to run a dhcp client, it >should not be necessary. That's perfectly fine. No one is trying to force an operator to run DHCP (except for the long list of other config options that only exist in DHCP). But if I want to have fine grained control over my IoT devices and do want to set up DHCP, then I should be able to do that. From nobody Fri Mar 31 07:47:08 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5DBA012998D for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:47:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zx9fCJNB35-K for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:47:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x22d.google.com (mail-pg0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 845801299AC for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id x125so73256877pgb.0 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:46:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=P9F2LmxGrHOrsOoSsAyc74w5BeDBCDYBrVZ9P7FnrCM=; b=1YDbMvGI2hJxmXF01sV4AEkxZwDnCEh22UULwBzx/nfk39uls5CxbfN/pftICyNkeU tzXKWeNaEfVUeBgZLxJjTb5QHTRFTsnmhaNDiA9PNlMV35E8CBgnoq32FUruF4AClSg4 iMaHrstTrs97y1knlIQvrQaQqx/SFFyt+ldMLKzXfjwr+elgAuRDlxbItSWTYQD0D1sZ NMwTwSAth2re+IHSP6aeQH7MU4AAOKgsvZ3QhUMLneZMMI+GciOLfQC+mVAK0MD2nZAL UPqfj96q7rpezJF0HRU2hj25EBFqRh51vrTKwzRo91169PtjiG8cYzM4ExA1H7x9sdg4 ReMQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=P9F2LmxGrHOrsOoSsAyc74w5BeDBCDYBrVZ9P7FnrCM=; b=e9zWIA/LQE/xOF/GnJ8Lo+fFDxeRJTz57cHBFO9TaHg5Uzn9Ow5DAKAuzn+jgyloAs hIWc5fmp3ao25ps4JK/WAryOVaCxhQH+6S5FmpRR1BB9bri4NYX0Zo6qGnrcyflLRAqz N0zjJY521ANZhj3svCRdV7uPUjNlPeCHrC/fn000r4YMw5j36H5goByXfqwN5prX4yBb rqt5Ma/4ekWFtmWyB2DS6Uasevl6oDO1/R7wiTQWioAIHlQJCTeFx7Pjfy88FTGix9p8 mwxrmO9KbN+OFSJlrQNd0Mxlk8ITHLjh61XURtZKW4VqWeDPIRdwgbjgT4rFjxo186TW +FVA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H27u51+bOTmOJg5Aho6ooLGwBMcEWb/aWlaxyvo5pfAdoJi4PTQfU1BZQlJ2drbjsKD3DaJ79gj5hYqdw== X-Received: by 10.84.195.129 with SMTP id j1mr4040925pld.88.1490971617150; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:46:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:46:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 07:46:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> <99e762f3-5246-2039-4b22-83e36293e61a@nlogic.no> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:46:56 -0500 Message-ID: To: Philip Homburg Cc: IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c0ef3629c6276054c07e1c9 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:47:06 -0000 --94eb2c0ef3629c6276054c07e1c9 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Then you are requiring all constrained devices to spend more resources. On Mar 31, 2017 09:45, "Philip Homburg" wrote: >4) The manager does not want to do all the extra work of setting up a >DHCP-server. It does not mean I am lazy. It means I don't need another >service running, all the extra lines of config, managing pools and >networks and so on. Note that I was talking about DHCP support in devices. By making sure that all devices (routers and hosts) support both SLAAC and DHCP it becomes an operational choice to use SLAAC or DHCP. It is only when some devices support only one option that an operator is forced to use that option even if it is not the best one. >You dont need to be "stupid". For "IoT" (for whatever that term i >worth) it makes no sense to have to set up DHCP just to get the devices >online. Even if they have enough resources to run a dhcp client, it >should not be necessary. That's perfectly fine. No one is trying to force an operator to run DHCP (except for the long list of other config options that only exist in DHCP). But if I want to have fine grained control over my IoT devices and do want to set up DHCP, then I should be able to do that. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --94eb2c0ef3629c6276054c07e1c9 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Then you are requiring all constrained devices to spend m= ore resources.=C2=A0

On Mar 31, 2017 09:45, "Philip Homburg" <pch-v6ops-7@u-1.phicoh.com> wrote:=
>4) The manager does not want to do all the extra work of setting up a=
>DHCP-server.=C2=A0 It does not mean I am lazy. It means I don't nee= d another
>service running, all the extra lines of config, managing pools and
>networks and so on.

Note that I was talking about DHCP support in devices. By making sure= that
all devices (routers and hosts) support both SLAAC and DHCP it becomes
an operational choice to use SLAAC or DHCP.

It is only when some devices support only one option that an operator is fo= rced
to use that option even if it is not the best one.

>You dont need to be "stupid".=C2=A0 For "IoT" (for = whatever that term i
>worth) it makes no sense to have to set up DHCP just to get the devices=
>online.=C2=A0 Even if they have enough resources to run a dhcp client, = it
>should not be necessary.

That's perfectly fine. No one is trying to force an operator to r= un DHCP
(except for the long list of other config options that only exist in DHCP).=

But if I want to have fine grained control over my IoT devices and do want<= br> to set up DHCP, then I should be able to do that.


_______________________________________________
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https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

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Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:02:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ymx2R6rcPpsZ for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:02:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (stereo6-tun.hq.phicoh.net [IPv6:2001:888:1044:10:2a0:c9ff:fe9f:17a9]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D50731299A7 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from stereo.hq.phicoh.net (localhost [::ffff:127.0.0.1]) by stereo.hq.phicoh.net with esmtp (Smail #130) id m1cty4d-0000HHC; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 17:02:47 +0200 Message-Id: To: v6ops@ietf.org From: Philip Homburg Sender: pch-bF054DD66@u-1.phicoh.com References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> <99e762f3-5246-2039-4b22-83e36293e61a@nlogic.no> In-reply-to: Your message of "Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:46:56 -0500 ." Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 17:02:46 +0200 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:02:58 -0000 >Then you are requiring all constrained devices to spend more resources. I don't know about you, but if possible I want my contrained devices to use TLS. If possible I want them to use public key crypto to verify firmware upgrades. If they provide console access, I want that to be ssh and not telnet. All of those are more costly than DHCP. Note that the need to actually do DHCP (as opposed to the code being there passively available) is signaled in an RA. So if you don't use DHCP in your network, it should not consume any runtime resources. Finally, if a device is really so constrained that DHCP literally doesn't fit, then leave it out. But this is not the controverial part of the discussion. The problematic devices are the ones that have more than enough resources and still don't do DHCP. From nobody Fri Mar 31 08:20:32 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6641D129417 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:20:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Sy-bDEHBckfz for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:20:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1A23B126C26 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:20:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v2VFKPUR001312 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:20:25 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local Message-ID: <58DE73B8.6050305@foobar.org> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:20:24 +0100 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.12 (Macintosh/20170323) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Brian E Carpenter CC: Russ White <7riw77@gmail.com>, v6ops@ietf.org References: <01fd01d2a96a$78729b50$6957d1f0$@gmail.com> <58DD2AA4.9050807@foobar.org> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:20:31 -0000 Brian E Carpenter wrote: > Excuse me, but that says nothing useful. The reason for requiring both > is because we don't know in the abstract which mechanisms the host will > encounter and we want hosts to work wherever they happen to be. This would be much better and rather good option, yes, although I fear you would meet strong resistance to the idea. I would definitely support this. Nick From nobody Fri Mar 31 08:47:10 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B37AC1294DF for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:47:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ESZAjMvU5HyI for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:46:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [195.30.115.67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 77F84129435 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:46:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 308A861011 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 17:46:56 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E5B6060367; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 17:46:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id D7EE671F5F; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 17:46:55 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 17:46:55 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Ted Lemon Cc: Philip Homburg , IPv6 Ops WG Message-ID: <20170331154655.GX25069@Space.Net> References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:47:02 -0000 Hi, On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 07:59:55AM -0500, Ted Lemon wrote: > "...is really bad" is not a reason. It is an opinion. What is the _reason_ > that it is "really bad"? People build networks that do not work, because of two vendors that need to interoperate, one side is not implementing RDNSS and the other side is not implementing (stateless) DHCPv6. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Fri Mar 31 08:50:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77AAB124281 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:50:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Ier99jzU2UOm for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:50:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BCE721294C0 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:50:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id 18D00603D6 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 17:50:43 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id DBE0D60367; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 17:50:42 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id CE2F771F85; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 17:50:42 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 17:50:42 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Jen Linkova Cc: Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20170331155042.GY25069@Space.Net> References: <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:50:46 -0000 Hi, On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 04:26:29PM +0200, Jen Linkova wrote: > On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Philip Homburg > wrote: > > I can see 3 reasons for not doing DHCPv6: > > 0) It requires an additional service to be operate/maintain for no > obvious reason. It's expensive. For state*less* DHCPv6, that's really not a very strong argument - if implemented on the router, configured from the same set of parameters ("here's a DNS server, hand out via RDNSS and stateless DHCPv6, done"), the extra operational/maintenance overhead is totally neglibile, and the cost on the router to listen on an extra port is also not high. IA_NA is something different. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Fri Mar 31 08:52:15 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1FC75129435 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:52:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.201 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.201 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XqRF1f0BK7L4 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:52:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.netability.ie (mail.netability.ie [IPv6:2a03:8900:0:100::5]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEAA91294C0 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 08:52:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Envelope-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from cupcake.local (089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged)) (authenticated bits=0) by mail.netability.ie (8.15.2/8.15.2) with ESMTPSA id v2VFq6Qe005195 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:52:06 +0100 (IST) (envelope-from nick@foobar.org) X-Authentication-Warning: cheesecake.ibn.ie: Host 089-101-195156.ntlworld.ie [89.101.195.156] (may be forged) claimed to be cupcake.local Message-ID: <58DE7B25.7020409@foobar.org> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:52:05 +0100 From: Nick Hilliard User-Agent: Postbox 5.0.12 (Macintosh/20170323) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Ted Lemon CC: Philip Homburg , IPv6 Ops WG References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> <99e762f3-5246-2039-4b22-83e36293e61a@nlogic.no> In-Reply-To: X-Enigmail-Version: 1.2.3 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:52:13 -0000 Ted Lemon wrote: > Then you are requiring all constrained devices to spend more resources. claims about dhcpv6 being unsuitable for resource constrained devices are often made but rarely substantiated. I'm not saying that this isn't a problem, but it would be helpful if we had some level of understanding in v6ops about the scale of the issue and whether this is a serious enough thing that it ought to hold up standardisation of what would otherwise be sensible and practical long term fixes to otherwise difficult problems. Nick From nobody Fri Mar 31 09:01:21 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id EDDD71299C4 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:01:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 04XL8kvJwlv6 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:01:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x231.google.com (mail-it0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BC8A1298B7 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:01:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x231.google.com with SMTP id y18so15525653itc.0 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:01:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=//EfBnrVj5tw4z13uj4zpv7osu569Dr6kzNCvp33N4o=; b=HnWZlmZSpQYQ+NGIANJrBBwr+gqKWy8BIvo4ICL0sEzOo7dNVNHspedmZpeHavSPw/ ZDl8GMP0Lr2DsMxsiQp+Q96NymlUqNpNcn8RTo6A7YwsmsDCkb+8PTwCxUnPiB26oOjp r/CNJPk3aZ+9GgxKjzgxKYKVhi1qH2abbnmUpLbZNitY69Etl89K+MAP+oQ40NhzoDhd +To8NNDWjw4RKAXcsGZaCiF3yPFnVytcuFG8NMO3Xbzsw8s/20hnsCflBdrMgDLya3yq 5W9q0B5DcQr0zZ2z88YfTAJzJpEkpQuoodGBd8KBylty5zu1r+Hpe8cxtO298+ZzOma2 Vzwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=//EfBnrVj5tw4z13uj4zpv7osu569Dr6kzNCvp33N4o=; b=hmdkQfk4AdslKEb4QesS66MiTObL1HPAS86BtMmY6OdSm0ATO9QqPp/aBYRgq+mgeg zGrbrTCljSj3SteqV2I4IQjnKJlaAoC3aOOK1kascrrQ1xnqMbOTdGR9o4Z+YJiNUPH3 eg0bLBvWPh5SZOWHZncINGhWJMlYqWOXZvHlovarEVXX+7LPnVXt/NosSBB0lx/rWxkB PRqjchkZRiz26/UQazM7dYzftnfbRpZkKs+C2Sl4fZRsDa4y+JUOL7JBBA/jvwqUro3v 4/PFTBpLAwbNaZBt1WAZdUuGBdXk4TXHBiDB/s73zzYDnn6QFF6TAFDBFoKwxQJWjEaK x51Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0sa+XQmr/ZI5WB3RLodLSzeSCCRkudBxAKxM4X/wXY3eBp24AWaQ7e8x0IxYP5pPSuexWg9MLHP2fi/w== X-Received: by 10.36.48.66 with SMTP id q63mr4596375itq.18.1490976073656; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:01:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.184.197 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:00:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170331155042.GY25069@Space.Net> References: <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> <20170331155042.GY25069@Space.Net> From: Jen Linkova Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:00:52 +0200 Message-ID: To: Gert Doering Cc: Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:01:20 -0000 On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Gert Doering wrote: > On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 04:26:29PM +0200, Jen Linkova wrote: >> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Philip Homburg >> wrote: >> > I can see 3 reasons for not doing DHCPv6: >> >> 0) It requires an additional service to be operate/maintain for no >> obvious reason. It's expensive. > > For state*less* DHCPv6, that's really not a very strong argument - if > implemented on the router, configured from the same set of parameters > ("here's a DNS server, hand out via RDNSS and stateless DHCPv6, done"), > the extra operational/maintenance overhead is totally neglibile, and > the cost on the router to listen on an extra port is also not high. I'm not a big fun of having services on routers. Especially when I have to duplicate the configuration. (It is an additional feature, I have to test it and have it in my qualification test set etc - and I might even need a license for it - and yeah, when it does not work as expected I have to troubleshoot it). Not mentioning acls etc. If it is not on a router - I need someone to operate that stateless DHCP for me. To configure it, to monitor it, to be oncall for it. And I can not notify hosts about any changes quickly enough. -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Fri Mar 31 09:18:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4451A129A0C for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:18:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id tA8tpMzubR5K for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:18:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x22c.google.com (mail-pg0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71F791299FA for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:18:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id 81so75613287pgh.2 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:18:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=xXhRsqa/e20fzxLgc4upbpGmCgmIcUAlaqhY37QUwaA=; b=qdb1lhbGPrUA25nDlEyIVugg1x1wy/5ymXsjWPBzyM1EUuWVuxrtKH6fWO5ysXgFI9 A/TNigoMTJxvpTmU5rkH939YmQh3uamD2X7Z3DznbLRIACZ3OteCHFCrsRWLzHC6gRGa bo6YLxJDgbO4AH3CzK1S3xclptKvCdES9HuZx0MNxyA6hdAiFP1aL0jxJGsNBiQUs9yh XUEUMElvDREr1KV2Jpei21g+e7aT0IjfQ8zN/vQ1b5tzWwMyUwFMidy3X6gMb/CvuJ/R A9SZFBE8EK4e95YC1SvaID8hMAiYBpBzRzkZYJJ6QXeGap9SV5OUcxCDMFn2rYHqK6RD ysAg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=xXhRsqa/e20fzxLgc4upbpGmCgmIcUAlaqhY37QUwaA=; b=daIt3181ZDzAdKlEiK5zru2QOa8VOXrka5XaMZ1AHsOZn91qrSvKt2XdthU3hU2QwL lrgr0DN8JlvTo4c7adoJbqwUlSwVCcxqmlzL2ykhrlNkU4qAsGh6XWZsvlDz2iOQrKLX HbOs6EL0wwr0HTTyOvcEUfELLGBgzhuKeMh26rW/6gau7VtIL2tdS1+NBS9X7JAzmWjl PhOrTCuH1Tr9cYXtKpHnvebHnedtlScE6N1owrZfurGfjNId+KOeaRY5lBTNnMe/CaRA Oxd53fBOH4sYWbA/icB0ownup5Cj+LLwisJ8T6qNezNRuFo5ccQ8Tofd+weqOHnPhRlJ 35Og== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2J4NvIigQOtMpNxFCLut3pFPSvNjlUP/SysqoKxB1wU4dyhAB5WL6ImLzqbPoWFeyVEBqhdgMzDCFomw== X-Received: by 10.99.43.212 with SMTP id r203mr4233056pgr.114.1490977115056; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:18:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:18:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> <20170331155042.GY25069@Space.Net> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:18:34 -0500 Message-ID: To: Jen Linkova Cc: IPv6 Ops WG , Gert Doering Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a114599b64fc20c054c092970 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:18:41 -0000 --001a114599b64fc20c054c092970 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Technically you have to do that with your router anyway to configure rdnss. I don't think this is a good argument against stateless DHCP on routers. A better argument is simply that it's redundant. On Mar 31, 2017 11:01, "Jen Linkova" wrote: > On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Gert Doering wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 04:26:29PM +0200, Jen Linkova wrote: > >> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Philip Homburg > >> wrote: > >> > I can see 3 reasons for not doing DHCPv6: > >> > >> 0) It requires an additional service to be operate/maintain for no > >> obvious reason. It's expensive. > > > > For state*less* DHCPv6, that's really not a very strong argument - if > > implemented on the router, configured from the same set of parameters > > ("here's a DNS server, hand out via RDNSS and stateless DHCPv6, done"), > > the extra operational/maintenance overhead is totally neglibile, and > > the cost on the router to listen on an extra port is also not high. > > I'm not a big fun of having services on routers. Especially when I > have to duplicate the configuration. > (It is an additional feature, I have to test it and have it in my > qualification test set etc - and I might even need a license for it - > and yeah, > when it does not work as expected I have to troubleshoot it). Not > mentioning acls etc. > If it is not on a router - I need someone to operate that stateless > DHCP for me. To configure it, to monitor it, to be oncall for it. > And I can not notify hosts about any changes quickly enough. > > -- > SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --001a114599b64fc20c054c092970 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Technically you have to do that with your router anyway t= o configure rdnss. I don't think this is a good argument against statel= ess DHCP on routers. A better argument is simply that it's redundant.

On Mar 31, 20= 17 11:01, "Jen Linkova" <= furry13@gmail.com> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 5:50 PM, Gert Doering <gert@space.net> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 04:26:29PM +0200, Jen Linkova wrote:
>> On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 4:18 PM, Philip Homburg
>> <pch-v6ops-7@u-1.= phicoh.com> wrote:
>> > I can see 3 reasons for not doing DHCPv6:
>>
>> 0) It requires an additional service to be operate/maintain for no=
>> obvious reason. It's expensive.
>
> For state*less* DHCPv6, that's really not a very strong argument -= if
> implemented on the router, configured from the same set of parameters<= br> > ("here's a DNS server, hand out via RDNSS and stateless DHCPv= 6, done"),
> the extra operational/maintenance overhead is totally neglibile, and > the cost on the router to listen on an extra port is also not high.
I'm not a big fun of having services on routers. Especially when I
have to duplicate the configuration.
(It is an additional feature, I have to test it and have it in my
qualification test set etc - and I might even need a license for it -
and yeah,
when it does not work as expected I have to troubleshoot it). Not
mentioning acls etc.
If it is not on a router - I need someone to operate that stateless
DHCP for me. To configure it, to monitor it, to be oncall for it.
And I can not notify hosts about any changes quickly enough.

--
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry

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--001a114599b64fc20c054c092970-- From nobody Fri Mar 31 09:19:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DFBF3128DF3 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:19:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6uS7hrfoY2Rj for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x22a.google.com (mail-pg0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0BD7124D37 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:19:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id 21so75671961pgg.1 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:19:43 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=VxKoNvVm2W352f/WmmZcUEJwfdwBtatcRGpKDoeI1t8=; b=p6BIdSfkrZKlsf9FZth++ac8tgc7XUW/PAPO49qTLwZl3x4kXiUN0e4YNS/NOIFw1e cCARx0sCyPfw5b7aVw/1Eidv4Xu3V5Otd9h/m/uD/F3339fCYf14H8D9odm2N47j8Suu a2FJBtBEfjl2atyBWE/6ZMe+ZSekTnTLO7QN+pppa7YLSGyHmKMyPJJLPiMy3xqaV1iL W3cMQHMe+T4Y2p5XDIkbjoHczDoaAB6pLLknwASsgQVHVHrkEbb/Hu+9M9J6FMV2x00+ Dff2/kQrC35RY9EpnPOVb+lYviFP5IfDPBfiTXAiOLMZTOXOAgZR0/mhXdmx8l0tY7wp C3TA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=VxKoNvVm2W352f/WmmZcUEJwfdwBtatcRGpKDoeI1t8=; b=DLJMbhdC4og7yDrjoLUU4tqft5cAdGwea3DTlfF18C8kHq/2Ycy72x+bcCzc2CTJVv Ow9qTdddBSR4WZRWQi4Rs9K67fB3sCwqEPqJViLcV4vaVHCdr+KnNw24NgZ2DeY0NGbz Jywf8LwtNIfbuHseT5/6Ow+o+iML3hQ0XqhRFORi45+ogtBz602ujCj2oNq4Glxlgm4I 1aUv6IO4TpDyg15T1r2cb6PF894ONflqCw95u4Mm+W6BjmyA22P5SMmRJS/iu2gVQAzR 9fiMUY6GZ4xN0X6vKOe+Oudb6RwFuJwVeuEV176c5JV0HXsm9Zgyb5I7vBO0strjGEZP u/rw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3n9TRk9w3XxQedTIRMfq9aKRO3sB+QEX3QJbMuFxCURxqndKD4OWoWItGalLvbHLpkkNAAm4nWJuHmLA== X-Received: by 10.99.56.17 with SMTP id f17mr4188787pga.228.1490977183487; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:19:43 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.179.203 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:19:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20170331154655.GX25069@Space.Net> References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> <20170331154655.GX25069@Space.Net> From: Ted Lemon Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:19:42 -0500 Message-ID: To: Gert Doering Cc: IPv6 Ops WG , Philip Homburg Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=94eb2c13695c63fe22054c092da2 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:19:46 -0000 --94eb2c13695c63fe22054c092da2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Right, that's why we're proposing making rdnss MTI. On Mar 31, 2017 10:46, "Gert Doering" wrote: Hi, On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 07:59:55AM -0500, Ted Lemon wrote: > "...is really bad" is not a reason. It is an opinion. What is the _reason_ > that it is "really bad"? People build networks that do not work, because of two vendors that need to interoperate, one side is not implementing RDNSS and the other side is not implementing (stateless) DHCPv6. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --94eb2c13695c63fe22054c092da2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Right, that's why we're proposing making rdn= ss MTI.

On Mar= 31, 2017 10:46, "Gert Doering" <gert@space.net> wrote:
Hi,

On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 07:59:55AM -0500, Ted Lemon wrote:
> "...is really bad" is not a reason. It is an opinion. What i= s the _reason_
> that it is "really bad"?

People build networks that do not work, because of two vendors that n= eed
to interoperate, one side is not implementing RDNSS and the other side
is not implementing (stateless) DHCPv6.

Gert Doering
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 -- NetMaster
--
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 = =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Aufsichtsratsvo= rs.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: = +49 (0)89/32356-444=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0USt-IdNr.: = DE813185279

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The routing policies and firewall >> policies would need to group addresses by different sets of bits. > All those different atttributes that a device with a given identifier may have, and which may - will! - > change over the years belong in a system designed to cope with such data, commonly a relational database The job of any address registry is to embed "attributes" into addresses. Some registries are Internet-wide (assign prefixes to organizations). Some are run by ISPs (carve out their space to customers). Some are site-local (as in my example). It would be awesome if Hardware (or Software) devices could take relational databases and allow one to specify routing, firewall, and other rules using SQL. Regretfully, I have not seen such devices, and I am not optimistic I will see them soon. In short, these attributes (prefixes, etc) are there because they are functional, not decorative. Igor No, an address registry does not embed anything in anything (ditto an ISP). Its job is to manage an address space (or a namespace) and decide who can use which part and how the parts are identified; in this case, it is how many of the leading bits will be used as an identifier and what the values therof represent. You want to embed further semantics which, my experience tells me, will not last the test of time. And I know plenty of organisations which use (relational) databases to store the relevant information about the parts of their organisations and the systems therein; there is no need for this to be online to a networking box for it to be right solution to storing such information Tom Petch. From nobody Fri Mar 31 09:25:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7FEC21296E8 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:25:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RzOg_BLOxTqw for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x244.google.com (mail-io0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E8341129514 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x244.google.com with SMTP id f84so6358032ioj.0 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:25:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=6/jSfV1j4Ny4UB7BvaMhXc9CZ0mMSt9g04E8AYDZdYU=; b=W5FCZOUdqTzMLabSRynJl4LOY0uNNvcL2KA2ARgnjc69cni5gxR8gokdP9WSsmpBJk Zwclkb9trZr1l3kBMVYjG+7HyHyzkeDkRIF0/PdScbI1xISRZUALMv6i0iBBixAjIPNe EYj9qsB186OcUo8fYNjRXpYgzo4mvOVlOjwupfWWN1G8BrKF+Zryz6C3OjK7GzSar6fQ kwIZBKh/CDKdEt88cPPk+gYTvbukPEaDLfD49JmK2em3BwwFRV2ShROmWeRignXivrTX SnXZGTqYvNClPgyXPIus1xLJi73dugF0VmAJvrjm7271N6iF0SSkahFBySYsdV/4xMBL eEaw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=6/jSfV1j4Ny4UB7BvaMhXc9CZ0mMSt9g04E8AYDZdYU=; b=ckG/UCkmjc+X2VTvEOPuaK8K0jNSIrkxGyCd46zZwhBJE+XusYCerXuSm701ggCJQv zCyJNb1nbzNt+27MmDsaneYoP6QtpMfe5rKzVXz0ZOWORC7pf6jkhFxFieX4mGrVNWd1 4WKgWz850nL7KgY6l2nsZosxyOKzJekwQ4PO93C3dz9vI+k7VchjXjehyA0RgXhvO39b kgoMbJje4HRAvIRC3gz+lJCyDLOQLoHQOLIibJYfwjuPBEaePA3WrSXzNTwVL2YtQ3ZC y9va5oQNkRuuTcdcQdSIwl8OMvbafchbhiKDJDh/9ab/Yxob5IN9BEDut1GUlK7FCRy8 JMWA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H1vryII2tgqV/8+LX6ZSLppcXOb4MsTtCl7AlAwP9upeW6JKbk+fJl+BQGHBM/JAQ== X-Received: by 10.107.19.38 with SMTP id b38mr3818007ioj.67.1490977555279; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:25:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781? (t2001067c0370012828ccdc4c97036781.v6.meeting.ietf.org. [2001:67c:370:128:28cc:dc4c:9703:6781]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s97sm3360415ioi.50.2017.03.31.09.25.54 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:25:54 -0700 (PDT) To: Ron Bonica , Russ White <7riw77@gmail.com>, 'IPv6 Ops WG' References: <020401d2a96c$0d320630$27961290$@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <12a532ca-019f-3e78-1246-972f95563d56@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 05:26:04 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-02 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:25:57 -0000 > My bad. I was confusing Jumbo Frames ( > 1500 bytes ) with Jumbograms ( > 65,767 bytes ). IMHO, all IPv6 routers should support jumbo frames while jumbograms aren't really required by anybody. 1. Jumbograms were intended for very high speed point to point links like HIPPI**. So nobody ever expected routers to handle them. Let them sleep quietly; no need to send them to the jumbogram graveyard. 2. Jumboframes aren't really an IETF problem, are they? I've nothing against them, but why would they be a router *requirement*? **RFC2675: Jumbograms are relevant only to IPv6 nodes that may be attached to links with a link MTU greater than 65,575 octets, and need not be implemented or understood by IPv6 nodes that do not support attachment to links with such large MTUs. Regards Brian From nobody Fri Mar 31 09:44:59 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BBFD11294BF for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:44:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 9lvpwGBcf06Q for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7F3EA12995D for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:44:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [128.9.184.172] ([128.9.184.172]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v2VGiOEs026617 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:44:24 -0700 (PDT) To: Ron Bonica , Russ White <7riw77@gmail.com>, "'IPv6 Ops WG'" References: <020401d2a96c$0d320630$27961290$@gmail.com> From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <03a118c6-e352-6f01-5283-46f4ff54727e@isi.edu> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 09:44:23 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1ADA0BA0C4C9A108373EF941" X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-02 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 16:44:58 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1ADA0BA0C4C9A108373EF941 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/31/2017 7:52 AM, Ron Bonica wrote: >>> Others requirements are applicable to IPv6 and IPv6. For example, >>> "TELNET SHOULD be disabled by default, but should be available for >>> operational purposes as required or as configured by the operator". I >>> wonder whether generic requirements belong in an document on >>> requirements for IPv6 routers? >> This is a hard question. While the document says "IPv6 requirements for >> routers," we really threw out ideas that cover anything in a "router" -- I don't >> know if this is the right "mix" however. I'd really like some guidance from the >> WG here. >> > [RB ] > One way to tackle this problem is to review previous documents that enumerated router requirements (e.g., RFC 1812). Then add a table to draft-ali-ipv6rtr-req that says "this document inherits requirements A, B and C from RFCs X, Y, and Z. FWIW, that's what I've been asking for. IMO, the related requirement might be "configurable", but indicating how is out of scope unless you demand support for a particular protocol. I see no valid reason to require TELNET vs. any other service over which configuration can be achieved. Joe --------------1ADA0BA0C4C9A108373EF941 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit



On 3/31/2017 7:52 AM, Ron Bonica wrote:
Others requirements are applicable to IPv6 and IPv6. For example,
"TELNET SHOULD be disabled by default, but should be available for
operational purposes as required or as configured by the operator". I
wonder whether generic requirements belong in an document on
requirements for IPv6 routers?

This is a hard question. While the document says "IPv6 requirements for
routers," we really threw out ideas that cover anything in a "router" -- I don't
know if this is the right "mix" however. I'd really like some guidance from the
WG here.


[RB ] 
One way to tackle this problem is to review previous documents that enumerated router requirements (e.g., RFC 1812). Then add a table to draft-ali-ipv6rtr-req that says "this document inherits requirements A, B and C from RFCs X, Y, and Z.
FWIW, that's what I've been asking for.

IMO, the related requirement might be "configurable", but indicating how is out of scope unless you demand support for a particular protocol. I see no valid reason to require TELNET vs. any other service over which configuration can be achieved.

Joe
--------------1ADA0BA0C4C9A108373EF941-- From nobody Fri Mar 31 11:03:24 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C6D161243F3 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:03:23 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xDQNFHfl3mAG for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4A03C1297AA for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:03:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EBDEE613EC for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 20:03:17 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id B081B60367; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 20:03:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id A23A5716C2; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 20:03:17 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 20:03:17 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Jen Linkova Cc: Gert Doering , Philip Homburg , "v6ops@ietf.org" Message-ID: <20170331180317.GZ25069@Space.Net> References: <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> <20170331155042.GY25069@Space.Net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="A1VS04HCCjrR2aaM" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:03:24 -0000 --A1VS04HCCjrR2aaM Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 06:00:52PM +0200, Jen Linkova wrote: > > For state*less* DHCPv6, that's really not a very strong argument - if > > implemented on the router, configured from the same set of parameters > > ("here's a DNS server, hand out via RDNSS and stateless DHCPv6, done"), > > the extra operational/maintenance overhead is totally neglibile, and > > the cost on the router to listen on an extra port is also not high. >=20 > I'm not a big fun of having services on routers. Especially when I > have to duplicate the configuration. A reasonable router implementation would use a single source for=20 distribution via both protocols. An unreasonable implementation is not a good reason to oppose a protocol. > (It is an additional feature, I have to test it and have it in my > qualification test set etc - and I might even need a license for it - > and yeah, > when it does not work as expected I have to troubleshoot it).=20 > Not mentioning acls etc. Right. We really should abandon all this higher-level shit like DNS, and solely focus on transporting packets. Is that what you're saying? [..] > And I can not notify hosts about any changes quickly enough. *That* argument is so silly and stale it really doesn't even deserve=20 a pointer to Nick's excellent reply to it. If you really *really* need to renumber your recursive name servers so often and without any prior notice(!!) - then, by all means, do not use stateless DHCPv6 to disseminate recursive DNS information. But do not use that as an argument against letting other people use DHCPv6 to disseminate information that for them doesn't change very often, or in an unplanned way. Like, our recursive name servers are using the very same IPv6 addresses since about 15 YEARS. Even though the actual hardware and software=20 incarnation has changed quite a few times since then. Gert Doering -- NetMaster --=20 have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 --A1VS04HCCjrR2aaM Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCAAdFiEEruB5jRHVM+CjiYD131bAZeTOf8UFAljemeMACgkQ31bAZeTO f8WAaA//eSfLadrMTW4XWmWaB5eEkTcoqbMEk7gkNzpWcVHeJYcPJNc5+pvaH5UQ 9vzrolbxzobMpQETM6atMU7ToryK54ZuNpFAWrQOQsvnutaWmAofPCvaBxWhCneT qGDNe1pj19wVkOpScck/2QlL6tSEDK8jTdYnZpqzUhU+DphA29elEX1kY9+wBQjL 990PgkzH0nOsiZhBxax2KOoLIgbJXQTBFTsbE3GKbot0KSwFHNpwxDXWeDuQB2yI TCbMN93Hzmw9YITGLb6jepEq+uTK1BKY2QgCCqkto6diGhz2YUrNyqEtFrItqSxP G/KQgQRRd7SzW4Nf8ah0fmpAIqzjdhHTjyv3OIcyDQj76hbdJwT92tC4pZ5LiSiK gVGCeOJpmDOC44NUBMP3ZScenQQ5o2ONBztwBdxOEIUMU24rSxNdIEHdAv03DF7J 53gzcdi2Au3rKbD7ZGRcxQzbCPxwlWtv9DH9/QBN9TOVddz53/YTJjDF9QXmYhB7 uwiVojafarjPjWrQsC3KY25UeiW5Mt7vv8soiRRtTRooWHc0zYa5WSwYnnVi7cRs TnRXQV6Dpi1q3TErQHOe5W1F3KEHkxd/YH8q2GfQAENQ/uP8K4M5ySWE4T5Y5wK0 4UFaXbaA/KoX2RvbI/RyLsRHfdH3C4DlWSRkWTYbZH91Fhim2nc= =OUfU -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --A1VS04HCCjrR2aaM-- From nobody Fri Mar 31 11:27:02 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C225C129450 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:27:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5OQeI_j99HFz for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pg0-x22f.google.com (mail-pg0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c05::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 906FA129478 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pg0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id g2so77445663pge.3 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:26:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=rkgPwkW8m7lzUZX3hhWAMoYHa7te1oxgonAqj2DbZYE=; b=pHBn/+x66eLLSNskOid9JxNzMP+SHsKnx1tInlbnvMm2eRzNMh3TZ0PtSoVYVYt6U1 6pfEmmaC72MH02IbeQDQJkfrRgMIckCQdn7ePSNSYawUMg3hbweq7UjzJLRZXSnc96xU /qCyhXGdijpneElWgeDLoiLnB7p35V3jeDew/HN+3hJSR8TCwfliAPjQKxELMyp3e8K3 h2eS5cJociy9Ba4ab4AbDOUYhIwhbPG/WscsfHyVg6FNSVGGQHiknyucuq6zDqz1D3go N0zWb9Z/L7/yR8ynKxya+unnN9DsVC6h8/lCapDY2m5EAHS1phTI20Q8GhjvMGmjAAvb ezeg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=rkgPwkW8m7lzUZX3hhWAMoYHa7te1oxgonAqj2DbZYE=; b=VCAZKJopK39RDVPpmvps9YSjLeL8EAFS4NajnYKuzwn+NGFN843Z8zndYEl0Ys9uH9 k3E8eIJsZSonFiznXAlO9i/4ZBWzp0O6ixaCGHQxcmIYG7DnmDJT+VEtzxoxYAPQRwKz NslRpQ/hw3RWMjCN2g99lNT2NEr1wifrUFobIEBguygY413jWPOeHLEFqsnuW8Tmpdwq fUNiIc9Et4dmYPyqxNtlE3CKfZm7kLSaCq5TZ4plXNhDufhwZWHeR4EVWDzbWLa3hYOs IZcfwNx8ADLJ2GywMXmdcHnOdfKmFzRLtSmqUIhD2j5p4Htwh42/U6PVAX7k2uvCfPbt vtcg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H20pI1EubPhxd/KA11chRS050BCmQNaZwk8mWFA4gSBzUyhaQD7U+RJNvm0l/ps7Q== X-Received: by 10.99.149.66 with SMTP id t2mr4454063pgn.152.1490984818152; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:26:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.15] (wsip-184-191-158-59.sd.sd.cox.net. [184.191.158.59]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m69sm11891462pfc.33.2017.03.31.11.26.56 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:26:57 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) From: Fred Baker In-Reply-To: <58DE7B25.7020409@foobar.org> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 11:26:55 -0700 Cc: Ted Lemon , IPv6 Ops WG Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <7D55CAB4-0581-47AD-9BCF-CF511E57E3DA@gmail.com> References: <399316c0-058c-5918-2245-e2ab938fae47@gmail.com> <449479D7-0626-4E06-93BE-EC3B43C55145@fugue.com> <4cc067b4-b69f-61f7-a85b-3e6098e51b36@gmail.com> <023E7744-9003-4064-8AFD-1A93A75EDFCA@jisc.ac.uk> <99e762f3-5246-2039-4b22-83e36293e61a@nlogic.no> <58DE7B25.7020409@foobar.org> To: Nick Hilliard X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:27:01 -0000 On Mar 31, 2017, at 8:52 AM, Nick Hilliard wrote: > claims about dhcpv6 being unsuitable Speaking as chair, but also speaking for myself. My perception has been and is that the argument between DHCP and the RA = has been driven by political considerations more than anything else. = Some operators are happy with the RA, and some strongly prefer DHCP. = Telling either one "you're wrong" seems to me an unproductive exercise - = we may as well try to tell them what routing protocols to run, or how to = lay out their networks. They do it their way, and they don't really care = what we think about it. It turns out that there are reasons to support the RA approach and = reasons to support the DHCP approach. At least part of that has to do = with the fact that the sets of information elements differ, and when one = creates a new information element in either model, it has to be = duplicated in the other to maintain parity. It seems like a lot of work. RFC 4339, of course, tries to analyze that in the context of DNS. In this discussion, I, personally, would like to separate between "I = like , all is evil", and "the technical differences between = and are , with ramifications." I believe that we are discussing the difference between "MAY", "SHOULD", = and "MUST". Personally, when I use those words, I use them in this way: "MAY" means that I am aware of someone doing or proposing to do a given = thing, and I don't see a problem with it. It is brought up to say that = the gentle reader might seriously consider the option. "SHOULD" means I'd like to say "MUST", but I think there might be or = perhaps know of situations in which that would be inappropriate. I try = to say what those might include, perhaps in general terms. "MUST" means, to me, that something breaks when the "MUST" is disobeyed. = I try to say what breaks. Something that would help me, in this discussion, would be a simple and = incontrovertible statement of what breaks, or in which circumstances = RDNSS would be inappropriate. That would help me distinguish between = "SHOULD" and "MUST". Failing either, it sounds to me like "MAY".=20 In this, I'm trying to avoid the rat-holes this list sometimes gets = into, in which proponents of different things spend time telling each = other they are wrong without reaching a consensus conclusion (and = without deciding that a consensus conclusion isn't needed). I think = there is a call for a single answer here; either RDNSS MUST be = supported, making the DHCP service interesting if present but mostly = irrelevant, the alternative being that it is OK for an operator to = decide how s/he wants to run their network for themselves, and between = them and their vendors. If we are deciding for technical reasons, we're = on solid ground; I worry that this is simply a shouting match between = proponents of different solutions. YMMV, and probably does.= From nobody Fri Mar 31 12:04:48 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CBC7C12940B for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:04:46 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id z_tKh_c1tkiJ for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:04:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mobil.space.net (mobil.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:81::67]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 21D9D129447 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 12:04:43 -0700 (PDT) X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Received: from mobil.space.net (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id EFFA060BCB for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:04:40 +0200 (CEST) X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true X-SpaceNet-Relay: true Received: from moebius4.space.net (moebius4.space.net [IPv6:2001:608:2:2::251]) by mobil.space.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id AFB6B603D6; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:04:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: by moebius4.space.net (Postfix, from userid 1007) id A251F71994; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:04:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:04:40 +0200 From: Gert Doering To: Fred Baker Cc: Nick Hilliard , IPv6 Ops WG Message-ID: <20170331190440.GC25069@Space.Net> References: <99e762f3-5246-2039-4b22-83e36293e61a@nlogic.no> <58DE7B25.7020409@foobar.org> <7D55CAB4-0581-47AD-9BCF-CF511E57E3DA@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <7D55CAB4-0581-47AD-9BCF-CF511E57E3DA@gmail.com> X-NCC-RegID: de.space User-Agent: Mutt/1.7.2 (2016-11-26) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:04:47 -0000 Hi, On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 11:26:55AM -0700, Fred Baker wrote: > If we are deciding for technical reasons, we're on solid ground; I > worry that this is simply a shouting match between proponents of > different solutions. On technical grounds, there is no real difference between RNDSS and stateless DHCPv6 as far as "being suitable for telling a client attached to a network what the recommended DNS recursor address is". Which is how we go into this mess: we left it to the politicians to decide what they like more, instead of providing a minimum set of MUSTs that will ensure that a host running "operating system A" will always, at least standard-requirement-wise, be able to connect to a network being run with gear from "vendor B". (Now, if an operator *decides* that he doesn't care about phones from vendor Z in his network, and willingly turns off the "MUST!" bit in his network, breaking Z's, then he gets what you describe: ignoring a MUST will break things). Unfortunately, there is no such MUST today. Gert Doering -- NetMaster -- have you enabled IPv6 on something today...? SpaceNet AG Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14 Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann D-80807 Muenchen HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen) Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444 USt-IdNr.: DE813185279 From nobody Fri Mar 31 14:24:00 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F085129A15 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:23:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6sKIVP1xI8Yj for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x243.google.com (mail-io0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 34A9312943C for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:23:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x243.google.com with SMTP id 68so7072149ioh.3 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:23:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RZqCD/z+xADqRcjekptPc03B4GwducWbjX2u/1ZDeGM=; b=Vfesho65D8wR2cLVH+qA/nSX2c3orTfbsanuwWLAylK7WfwSegsjq0zbjfp/z0hOTr d7LauiJfVAj3VQiE+ifktBSaUEDOue8zoc9aJV5Q5exGQXcYTQ805XOTMfW9/qvy6vTs AS8OJQo4hnvYTQ/4/bYEeFK5y05eNCZLX6t1VutPh/wRVonwgGCUZ6wXtP42fxG5s8ED b4tfrKMkwHnLrmkMLaMskByusiMXgYNSLhxxtSdByS6Q2Y2ilW5QbQzqC5P2g2DbEzVm 1sR2cj4nQT25IngEV325B8EJgRzGXHIJdi/V935DhQo8uxQcQWzqWpY+yNBKj1cu1+3h qK+g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=RZqCD/z+xADqRcjekptPc03B4GwducWbjX2u/1ZDeGM=; b=P/4p6NvNSqSDdIPECBJIxjxv7N9UDtiZ8fUP5qabLgfRvF247s1DPjmAzVY/RVQ6/P 7MmUPpOqHHFhd3r3Keo3bR8So7EsCS59zhRdpEivhcvlxYx0fDTj3eK0OE3vBUCD5h3V 1hTyBwmPIUYcKi9x3bQzPwwaERoIg0x2KF94lAS77mu+7byTBc7k2b3DQhhUTwFyOm1L 7pzahDofYTebzSFh8sXCTT65mnGsgD+ZvWCFktNsDnQq6opLdLpJCAZ1gR4TnD3sAUfC 9YXn0def2SqPgPcgeR46fcC0+FHb923bluIJaWjD/JxZWcd1xT3wmHkvRL1UAZ+LEk+V Ly0w== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H38wkAPfivr2pJKo31vkfLah9z8601jfJ7khy1ll61CqneYp6fQxEXZGYtNitsrHw== X-Received: by 10.107.13.78 with SMTP id 75mr5992919ion.144.1490995432531; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.11.95] (50-76-68-137-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.76.68.137]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b126sm3784229ioa.55.2017.03.31.14.23.51 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:23:51 -0700 (PDT) To: "Lubashev, Igor" , Tim Chown References: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> <731DBBD1-3FE5-404B-8711-69AF434C35DB@thehobsons.co.uk> <61272D8A-FC55-4178-80C7-12CE06FE80E3@thehobsons.co.uk> <09989c7b-7348-ef43-87b1-b50c812c2b61@gmail.com> <6F6673DB-A555-46B7-A66D-76C746BAAA4F@jisc.ac.uk> Cc: Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org Operations" From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <1a66d7ec-1668-bfc0-318b-9a36c5fd73d4@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 10:24:01 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:23:59 -0000 On 31/03/2017 17:52, Lubashev, Igor wrote: > Tim Chown wrote: >> Are you suggesting RFC5952 should require fd63:45eb:dc15::0/64 for the= textual representation >> of the address, or=E2=80=A6? >=20 > No, definitely not fd63:45eb:dc15::0/64. This cannot be right for two = reasons: > 1. fd63:45eb:dc15::0 is not a canonical address, per rfc5952 4.2.1. Agreed, it is not canonical, but I believe it is valid. I included the "0= " to make it clear that the IID is all zeros. > 2. Adding that '0' cannot be done in the general case. Think of fd63:45= eb:dc15::2/127. True, but irrelevant to my example. =20 > The interpretation is entirely contextual.=20 That is exactly the problem. A syntax whose semantics depends on context = is very error-prone when it appears in the human/computer interface. Brian > If an address and its subnet is expected, it should be interpreted as s= uch. If only a subnet or prefix is expected, it should be interprested a= s the subnet or prefix. >=20 > That's how it can be explained, if an explanation ever makes it to a do= cument. >=20 > - Igor >=20 From nobody Fri Mar 31 14:32:07 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6717F12943C for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:32:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id i8F2FghI7WAd for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:32:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x244.google.com (mail-it0-x244.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::244]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0C671270FC for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x244.google.com with SMTP id 190so3221029itm.3 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:32:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:organization:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=wpv+L2fabDmC5Hn4YyorQOzbDbNtym5d8Op0TRFiJkM=; b=lGUScvf8ye0diVmka9x3JKk89zj9FdjGUqqI5rKOLxXT7uZEBP50Wzse+8Oo1cpAmR e/yKChKOMkYAH77GdypCKKO7Is7ATPmJAROrAWlX3j0z13qlNoDBfOIgQJ9md9R1wY/b rGD6j7cI6yWOB0LV2UhaIcaN+96ymvY6Z3TPZJ2hraiAU8YKGG17rJRR4nZVg05LWhWz IyRXLJxZsnbO4npTRTHPhjLurpnjmMHLaLM38Ip4FrBDogg9Pik2FyfQPaQ6VXW9X5g7 +pn8voUg+dsUOEnMpoHUcbDJH0H+6l0iEfKJiLGQW0saC5HhUq+8rmMRFeH8ZYIxlfKV Pweg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=wpv+L2fabDmC5Hn4YyorQOzbDbNtym5d8Op0TRFiJkM=; b=GjpzPA9YdcHdZpb+QYrFneixuGgCV5RlKJJnyre9KOFKBoa8iF+/ti9rSp09GUxycb QCApJHHDXhQkw4cb7ciLjl2AFQZkYS7q1kXnqIBIjsX237OnLjEuCDx9UnpeFmwLDCL6 7Lec8ijGQmPOA3SE8WhbcqtQAcK1JxMSmWcC1mN7/EfUgqxUArWDe9f/7ZrnDQ+ynkqG 1KDERwQLHVMv8qBCXh4KPLryrfwZSuayQ8KWDbgd2e5QGhuFclCDgooV8ZihAOgxJaL4 6pkjI2ZgOUtillxGWGL5kAy/VDucRBffQ87RxX1rbCPoRahLAyJ9INzfIA8hR8miMTDp nZfw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2XCFDfmyyn0mYHGtl1HevwguCYi6J8STD2aw0HvKtgjkieznWAcvkzVaNvI44ByA== X-Received: by 10.36.195.130 with SMTP id s124mr6671506itg.78.1490995924211; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:32:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.11.95] (50-76-68-137-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.76.68.137]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 71sm3810314iof.29.2017.03.31.14.32.02 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:32:03 -0700 (PDT) To: Gert Doering , Fred Baker References: <99e762f3-5246-2039-4b22-83e36293e61a@nlogic.no> <58DE7B25.7020409@foobar.org> <7D55CAB4-0581-47AD-9BCF-CF511E57E3DA@gmail.com> <20170331190440.GC25069@Space.Net> Cc: IPv6 Ops WG From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <95d85a60-c700-f3bc-9142-a150cc119a57@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 10:32:13 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20170331190440.GC25069@Space.Net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:32:06 -0000 On 01/04/2017 08:04, Gert Doering wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 11:26:55AM -0700, Fred Baker wrote: >> If we are deciding for technical reasons, we're on solid ground; I >> worry that this is simply a shouting match between proponents of >> different solutions. > > On technical grounds, there is no real difference between RNDSS and > stateless DHCPv6 as far as "being suitable for telling a client attached > to a network what the recommended DNS recursor address is". > > Which is how we go into this mess: we left it to the politicians to > decide what they like more, instead of providing a minimum set of MUSTs > that will ensure that a host running "operating system A" will always, > at least standard-requirement-wise, be able to connect to a network > being run with gear from "vendor B". > > (Now, if an operator *decides* that he doesn't care about phones from > vendor Z in his network, and willingly turns off the "MUST!" bit in his > network, breaking Z's, then he gets what you describe: ignoring a MUST > will break things). > > Unfortunately, there is no such MUST today. Exactly. And as a result, we have real-world problems where users cannot connect out of the box. Although there is no solution to this for legacy kit, we can tilt the balance in favour of interoperabiliy by a MUST for future host *and* router implementations (code) and deployments (default config). I think that is the only rational way forward. Brian From nobody Fri Mar 31 14:43:16 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D9A0129A15 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:43:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KhHM4LDpjAVP for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:43:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x243.google.com (mail-io0-x243.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::243]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 71F39129A22 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x243.google.com with SMTP id 68so7110673ioh.3 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:43:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=subject:to:references:from:organization:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gHT59fALkzJ3Z6qxtJJEYzQx/OqHQzzPbJ3Grc6aDLs=; b=JZDWdk4IXk8vrFcIF2N6QEbqeES8L4xV1ZIiA6CuEWw+Fd5ATThDVGCKnhl6yg/HrC GiW4G0OBfIZjNm1FBHrJ7LqCSKQvwB42xYN9+3vEhoApHETTmD6j5n6G8Man2fLiKPGC slUdGLKxZMIHv5x8LfaqlLbpgxN9tUrMWiunQTlB73mgmMtcsqqk4930KGW9qHxpbqlK zY1DB9oHOce6LmvqSKbn90seszuiydhH0IwB2EuLpR6w+Yy19vYJ+PhUh/IIP6k8ba1B 0XnH3zF2IwYNQGq8HXNfd8Hocu44BtFAigQioWsiT2XH2syquNcXmYGyi1gpRg0UfaIz 9ooQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:from:organization :message-id:date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gHT59fALkzJ3Z6qxtJJEYzQx/OqHQzzPbJ3Grc6aDLs=; b=i+mMA2PABozI6Co1wnHWKmaucufn2XPCBGwUbTsy0RTk/2hzjOsbxLxbA9YNF4V5Ke xO0ZLolu1AuUIlj2eP4pZmboKmOcGp43OTlRKa7odi8DpUJDGaKdtlTVkIk41vPzGNfz XC2vEPHmx2O4gCdyxkK2hSaaDXL8saxk7jWHFsjrCZoYlkLWGEkjKZ8aH6Ou0JMf3/HJ tvYazi9uIth8oFbfxpQVM4yCVFOkSkSMv7nrMzWnPZxdP31NInLN2cwDfZHH74rFmfDJ iLtdFAN+EyJ06plPzJnUeWeB1mXowudogv7S/YlEIcFveXSHFfSLqPYZKzx+kCZZ3srw 0M1Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0yII6U+VNWfGiTHXHcf4SXMdsgmTRIHg7H2TgJc+SKYnZ4SjqVNBlI//mloJGSmQ== X-Received: by 10.107.203.7 with SMTP id b7mr5928190iog.115.1490996591675; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:43:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.16.11.95] (50-76-68-137-static.hfc.comcastbusiness.net. [50.76.68.137]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m77sm1949709ita.16.2017.03.31.14.43.10 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 14:43:11 -0700 (PDT) To: v6ops list References: <6C1E351B-F8B6-4BC2-890D-993A1F081226@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Organization: University of Auckland Message-ID: <8365a4e0-d317-ed3c-59b3-2e829ff210f3@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 10:43:21 +1300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6C1E351B-F8B6-4BC2-890D-993A1F081226@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Outcomes from v6ops@IETF98 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:43:15 -0000 On 30/03/2017 09:40, Fred Baker wrote: > I have attached a pdf of the proposed charter as it ended this afternoon. I invite public commentary (to v6ops@ietf.org), and if you support using it as it stands, please say so.. Looks good to me. > One question I intended to ask and didn't get to was the appropriateness of an interim meeting, perhaps in mid-May. It would primarily address draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations and draft-petrescu-v6ops-ipv6-power-ipv4, and potentially draft-ietf-v6ops-design-choices if it is updated. There is an argument for leaving these to IETF 99, and potentially booking a second slot for that discussion. Your opinions? I find it hard to answer without seeing a list of open issues for each draft. > We have two WGLCs in progress or about to be so. The WGLC on draft-ietf-v6ops-unique-ipv6-prefix-per-host, which Ron opened on 14 March, will end on 9 April. We will then open a WGLC on draft-ietf-v6ops-v4v6-xlat-prefix, to end 23 April. > > I believe that the discussion today supported adoption of the following as working group drafts: > draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs (as draft-ietf-v6ops-ipv6rtr-reqs) > draft-palet-v6ops-rfc7084-bis (as draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis) > draft-pauly-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update (as draft-ietf-v6ops-happy-eyeballs-update) I'm OK with adopting all three. I think from the discussion that happy-eyeballs-update should perhaps be named differently, with Intended status: Informational, since putting it on the standards track would probably take some heavy lifting. As a report on enhancements it could progress quickly. Regards Brian From nobody Fri Mar 31 15:07:43 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16BC2124217 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:07:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.253 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.253 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H3=-0.01, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_WL=-0.01, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=yahoo.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id xAIycg2813IW for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm6.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm6.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.212.165]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 38A721201F2 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:07:34 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=yahoo.com; s=s2048; t=1490998053; bh=qb+Tv3Zu1ppMGamMFzlwH4uGJBvq1gz2tl81MRML5N4=; h=Date:From:Reply-To:To:Cc:In-Reply-To:References:Subject:From:Subject; b=ZxqrLjkOyxVMQndwUh0ZPsJB1320T/zFw3+/YcnEqi4hl+ycyZ27L/EmuGWHqB1lElZbt8ilYTwh1l+6LKT899pTT+4FS8MqHNv7HT8zT0FnsFXmeKWTrDBqAIoI0KefIy86GUr+Vx+RG7W5igKziWSaCEoVg3JHx/6cpZQRiYrCRNpTvKtHoURziF+9fR/a8bBiE8m0jzd3tdJdTW8RQKTyBfRcmWJO1EyS36yAkOeuFnoTW8Zsl1DtRl6p9jW4HXCer+2orP6a5lCn3510KLHc4CR4182rAJoghrluvPoDFeWMl07vZarP1NQ65ReqEh0E3GprmlJQwioIsNsr2Q== Received: from [98.139.215.142] by nm6.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Mar 2017 22:07:33 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.227] by tm13.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Mar 2017 22:07:33 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1036.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 31 Mar 2017 22:07:33 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 221066.93823.bm@omp1036.mail.bf1.yahoo.com X-YMail-OSG: rGGLY6wVM1kT3XBpJrmiPpo9HxBW0hgdt..trKD8_dVHVXbJ6bym7aA5RWLy0hb 54Og4alUK.rnlvveEfFUQUnxX.CzEuAZ3KkwDiAzA_5L60dM1UCrevzMQdwRYkUKRR4AkFVPPUET Hd4OWPdC0LvtZ4ZkGcTABMtWJFsQQ77JLeN2xsAcbxeinxd4WUgExy6d4ntax3iAuzA1vhr5iD9a vOf2RYo9c7HQOtxzzzk_cTAEoh3m7LekkAHNChJYlfEVVFq0ntND0mkTfuxpPv1WEMSv7x7Tz3Em Ov_kovjf9KYOVo7.HMfqIrI6AUTk.BLRObl6fTWHUaQZHR8MvueWGFBdvkG.i3dbRWppGdTVeE62 ..L8vQzFmPV44KGlzHPyqkew1PKFy2vdoGd47xxyj5NZX4fQM7wk.zdWiqlHrfboIAqQcxXKD.BY j1GFCaAdOFduwhNnapOUpKWtm2rzdBDTrpOnbEOpW86yLzJ3xtp6yoS_kbbsKzWSobQxciXT7kzF Ut.DsmBKuv6fHK61CwDcn2H5L7S7ZWp7NBoDW0rEjTGu9aeK..Ci6i.JdGO4sJj_xalT8cQ-- Received: from jws400164.mail.bf2.yahoo.com by sendmailws163.mail.bf1.yahoo.com; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:07:32 +0000; 1490998052.863 Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:07:32 +0000 (UTC) From: Igor Lubashev Reply-To: "igorlord@alum.mit.edu" To: "brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com" , "Lubashev, Igor" , Tim Chown Cc: Simon Hobson , "v6ops@ietf.org Operations" Message-ID: <1091084891.8548111.1490998052225@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1a66d7ec-1668-bfc0-318b-9a36c5fd73d4@gmail.com> References: <036a33f3-ce67-57ed-4880-eb7cf954eea1@gmail.com> <731DBBD1-3FE5-404B-8711-69AF434C35DB@thehobsons.co.uk> <61272D8A-FC55-4178-80C7-12CE06FE80E3@thehobsons.co.uk> <09989c7b-7348-ef43-87b1-b50c812c2b61@gmail.com> <6F6673DB-A555-46B7-A66D-76C746BAAA4F@jisc.ac.uk> <1a66d7ec-1668-bfc0-318b-9a36c5fd73d4@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_8548110_857293300.1490998052222" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation - LL address and prefix X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:07:36 -0000 ------=_Part_8548110_857293300.1490998052222 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I agree that having a contextual interpretation of any notation is confusin= g and unfortunate. At this point, if we are to recommend anything, it must = be backward and forward compatible. >=C2=A0Adding that '0' cannot be done in the general case. I thought it was relevant in a sense that if we do recommend a change, it s= hould "work" in all cases. Hence, "just add a non-canonical zero in the las= t nibble" does not fit that bill. However, if this is the best we can do, I could go along with this recommen= dation, which could make things clearer for humans in most cases, though no= t all. - Igor Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android=20 =20 On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: On 31/03/2017 17:52, Lubashev, Igor wrote: > Tim Chown wrote: >> Are you suggesting RFC5952 should require fd63:45eb:dc15::0/64 for the t= extual representation >> of the address, or=E2=80=A6? >=20 > No, definitely not fd63:45eb:dc15::0/64.=C2=A0 This cannot be right for t= wo reasons: > 1. fd63:45eb:dc15::0 is not a canonical address, per rfc5952 4.2.1. Agreed, it is not canonical, but I believe it is valid. I included the "0" = to make it clear that the IID is all zeros. > 2. Adding that '0' cannot be done in the general case. Think of fd63:45eb= :dc15::2/127. True, but irrelevant to my example. =20 > The interpretation is entirely contextual.=20 That is exactly the problem. A syntax whose semantics depends on context is= very error-prone when it appears in the human/computer interface. =C2=A0 Brian > If an address and its subnet is expected, it should be interpreted as suc= h.=C2=A0 If only a subnet or prefix is expected, it should be interprested = as the subnet or prefix. >=20 > That's how it can be explained, if an explanation ever makes it to a docu= ment. >=20 > - Igor >=20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ------=_Part_8548110_857293300.1490998052222 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I agree = that having a contextual interpretation of any notation is confusing and un= fortunate. At this point, if we are to recommend anything, it must be backw= ard and forward compatible.


&= gt; Adding that '0' cannot be done in the general case.<= /span>

I thought it was relevant in a sense that if= we do recommend a change, it should "work" in all cases. Hence, "just add = a non-canonical zero in the last nibble" does not fit that bill.

However, if this is the bes= t we can do, I could go along with this recommendation, which could make th= ings clearer for humans in most cases, though not all.

- Igor


On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 5:24 PM, Brian E Carpenter=
<brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
On 31/03/2017 1= 7:52, Lubashev, Igor wrote:
> Tim Chown wrote:
>> Are you suggesting RFC5952 should require fd63:45eb:dc1= 5::0/64 for the textual representation
>> of the ad= dress, or=E2=80=A6?
>
> No, defi= nitely not fd63:45eb:dc15::0/64.  This cannot be right for two reasons= :
> 1. fd63:45eb:dc15::0 is not a canonical address, p= er rfc5952 4.2.1.

Agreed, it is not ca= nonical, but I believe it is valid. I included the "0" to make
it clear that the IID is all zeros.

> 2. Adding that '0' cannot be done in the general case. Think of fd= 63:45eb:dc15::2/127.

True, but irrelev= ant to my example.

> The interpret= ation is entirely contextual.

That is= exactly the problem. A syntax whose semantics depends on context is veryerror-prone when it appears in the human/computer interfac= e.

  Brian


>= ; If an address and its subnet is expected, it should be interpreted as suc= h.  If only a subnet or prefix is expected, it should be interprested = as the subnet or prefix.
>
> Tha= t's how it can be explained, if an explanation ever makes it to a document.=
>
> - Igor
&g= t;

__________________________________= _____________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/m= ailman/listinfo/v6ops
------=_Part_8548110_857293300.1490998052222-- From nobody Fri Mar 31 15:44:31 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C241C12940C for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:44:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=akamai.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Q3JnnRuJARSH for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00190b01.pphosted.com [IPv6:2620:100:9001:583::1]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 43D67128616 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:44:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0050095.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. (8.16.0.20/8.16.0.20) with SMTP id v2VMgLU9006412; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 23:44:22 +0100 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=akamai.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=jan2016.eng; bh=8NURGivj3KhDGZXWwNHgp1dlG2ChgT1AyL/D1ZFAUQI=; b=nlkdQ7ZxJIWEqGk8rxLhvjCWrNxk69iqJByMKPJFsJoDfNjUNHHci4axafkT78WUOGyu W2T7CJYgCMh3t/7F6Qie8NQ/W9+1iMLTP+ShzxPgRWdi6GS+XzNjbMEdYrqE+awaZr5Z 2QiOEIQ8IVHI8w8BwNtUNtaqemHO/NlDNRjwQmIatMVAPk0Xgf2GGf561ZafX1kwjvg1 fkIqjfazQm6pycJOXAVyN0IMhftbioxJVa+vV0mSNIQU6cNOqAnrMRhWzbSiqrrIuxzL VyJ1kgpUQJreWVNaYft/fKypMlJI+44x/THi9fhotlpF8FZL4MVzEebriuZo9Phmsxc/ FA== Received: from prod-mail-ppoint2 (a184-51-33-19.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com [184.51.33.19] (may be forged)) by m0050095.ppops.net-00190b01. with ESMTP id 29htqphmc7-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 23:44:22 +0100 Received: from pps.filterd (prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com [127.0.0.1]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com (8.16.0.17/8.16.0.17) with SMTP id v2VMVhLZ006680; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:44:21 -0400 Received: from email.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.33]) by prod-mail-ppoint2.akamai.com with ESMTP id 29fsx69xah-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:44:20 -0400 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.105) by usma1ex-dag1mb6.msg.corp.akamai.com (172.27.123.65) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1178.4; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 15:44:20 -0700 Received: from USMA1EX-DAG1MB5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) by usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com ([172.27.123.105]) with mapi id 15.00.1178.000; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:44:20 -0400 From: "Lubashev, Igor" To: "t.petch" CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation Thread-Index: AdKmvKIOboO9ECIoS5CCtdTGzUhRdAAdhDoAACcj/YAAAtlQ4AAJCMIAABJl7RAACIRhwgANFLuAAAFW1nAAZbRbawAKKIkw Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:44:19 +0000 Message-ID: <16cbe3fe5f5841a2b765f4613385fd5e@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> References: <6DEC0B23-6F6B-45FE-8579-2B7207929D56@gmail.com> <58DA3A49.9@foobar.org> <2c48e21735224145ab3037ad1467a2a8@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <58DA8A08.8060309@foobar.org> <587c6005ecb449fd8c2002001019326d@usma1ex-dag1mb5.msg.corp.akamai.com> <021101d2a86a$324ef200$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> <58DB9671.4000700@foobar.org> <015101d2aa3a$afb3ffc0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> In-Reply-To: <015101d2aa3a$afb3ffc0$4001a8c0@gateway.2wire.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [172.19.37.76] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-31_18:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 adultscore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703310206 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10432:, , definitions=2017-03-31_18:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 impostorscore=0 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1702020001 definitions=main-1703310207 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-lubashev-ipv6-addr-mask: IPv6 Address/Mask Notation X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:44:30 -0000 t.petch wrote: > I know plenty of organisations which use (relational) databases to store > the relevant information about the parts of their organisations and the > systems therein; there is no need for this to be online to a networking > box for it to be right solution to storing such information You are thinking of some decorative attributes. I am talking about very fu= nctional attributes -- attributes that a networking device needs to impleme= nt a policy, at line rate. These attributes are no different from the pref= ix attribute assigned by a registry (whose purpose is not only to limit the= number of global addresses owned by an entity but also to allow network bo= xes to route traffic). If I have groups of devices in multiple subnets sha= re a need for a common policy (firewall policy, qos policy, routing policy,= whatever), I need to configure my policy-enforcement device in terms of a = discontinuous bitmap. Will I ever find myself in a need to change / update my addressing scheme? = I really hope so -- that would mean I am doing well and my needs are evolv= ing. My goal is not to make something that will serve me *forever* but to b= uild something that serves the needs I have now and allows for a smooth tra= nsition to accommodate tomorrow's needs I cannot anticipate today. Just in case anyone is wondering, there are tens of thousands of instances = of systems using the concepts I am describing (IPv6 address/bitmap-defined = policies) deployed all over the Internet today. They are serving a very la= rge portion of the Internet IPv6 web content. I am not very interested in = hearing that there is no need for such systems. There will be such systems= from other vendors in our future. I would like to give IETF community an = opportunity to decide on the best way to express such policies, before vend= ors start to invent their own ways. - Igor From nobody Fri Mar 31 18:54:57 2017 Return-Path: <7riw77@gmail.com> X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1F6F0126C2F for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:54:56 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nGQYnfZlTtBq for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x241.google.com (mail-oi0-x241.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::241]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BA6D6120727 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x241.google.com with SMTP id f193so11685712oib.0 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:54:51 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id:mime-version :content-transfer-encoding:thread-index:content-language; bh=ydcRt+ptKhEUDzLn5k+68osywHTNaISAeyNyWWwIlPg=; b=By7bV3YKVRoen1P+O5Hy1ZV02Fx2AhGf3WeIf4+0r6/gJd0VXl5L7N0CWpIdMj4Kkl Ps0EeA/0ecRAmD2oQXvUs1BuNatQItBv28V/ShPjT+KhgCT3XHE5kPBQbkv/NPYntBrW Sa5zpWLcn5qslbx/l1TrKBziTZjDjHDRu9X1s3eZDXQzD+SJL28idUMhG4Qca4fF5TOn YR3WtXWScv9PCbQE9Kyjd2GBnFuVe3JB53NEPyVC62xmmdU1bbg0Zh/NHLnPzdV15Nvq AYMz3gliLvL727BEQOSIVHfm6wLJja6IGyLOJY6lofnzDPdpecL4MA1RUbiW4cxiY2lQ PCcA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=ydcRt+ptKhEUDzLn5k+68osywHTNaISAeyNyWWwIlPg=; b=V1RzpDfDsK4CiG++870fnHVGRv1IhEe04T8W8CxevGb9+Avb01PjPRKIe4nfcCpZis gdl4ON+n8d0B2U+jL3LA9rjSuN91KavDrsOpj+VKmvnNAvkRqRoLlpLQ0wzdzEhXohOm je4gB9T3hflooRCyKvNFq3daNf402mLqikCx1NEsT+5rIMLPDW1JyGPc9BDl56VS85MY 63qymmv20u+31vifWJVba9C6/zP19V95Dp43EVVNPjqAv0GPNbnEyvMsH8jtwFU3lV0u BwNu7LNl79A1aWIbSWPncPrJXNSzyN8KXpxeewp7qMlD8bIJzyKf6TkWJvsDq+gvDT3n JtQA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H0ZeTlF0Q4pSZujQDNjYWklgop03JjWdaTZVylJkcCmJsUwoc9qWwNLWbcUteEdxw== X-Received: by 10.157.52.74 with SMTP id v68mr3714495otb.156.1491011691100; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:54:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Russ ([2602:30a:2e5b:44d0:1dbe:b26f:375b:fa27]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id s67sm3312552ois.11.2017.03.31.18.54.50 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 18:54:50 -0700 (PDT) From: "Russ White" <7riw77@gmail.com> To: "'Joe Touch'" , "'Ron Bonica'" , "'IPv6 Ops WG'" References: <020401d2a96c$0d320630$27961290$@gmail.com> <03a118c6-e352-6f01-5283-46f4ff54727e@isi.edu> In-Reply-To: <03a118c6-e352-6f01-5283-46f4ff54727e@isi.edu> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:54:46 -0400 Message-ID: <018501d2aa8a$f1137a40$d33a6ec0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQFgkFfbKlW8X9Jtbc7PQ8zBQIWfBgFZDxLvAgmk6+QBcTOgtqJtU03g Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-02 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 01:54:56 -0000 =20 > IMO, the related requirement might be "configurable", but indicating = how is > out of scope unless you demand support for a particular protocol. > I see no valid reason to require TELNET vs. any other service over = which > configuration can be achieved. Let me put this another way: some sets of features make a network easier = to operate. Others make a network more difficult to operate. What I've = heard from operators (including my operational folks) is what is in the = draft. This is not a document that says, "this is what is technically = best," or "this is what is the most advanced." Instead, this document = was designed just to give operators a chance to say, "this is what I = expect to see in a router on which I deploy IPv6."=20 If we are going to move away from what operators argue implementations = SHOULD/MUST/MAY implement, then we are moving away from the original = intent of the document--which means it becomes a different document = entirely, and we are going to need to find different ground rules for = determining what to include or not. If someone would like to make a = suggestion of what those ground rules might be (please do not suggest = "the best technical solution," as that idea will simply result in an = endless fight), please suggest it. I'm perfectly happy to do whatever editing is needed... But I need to = know what the new ground rules are going to be if the intent of the = draft is going to be changed, in order to effectively evaluate what = should in (or out) of the draft -- and if the ground rules do change, = then a draft with the original intent is going to reappear anyway, as = many operators I've spoken to believe such a document is useful and = necessary. =F0=9F=98=8A /r=20 From nobody Fri Mar 31 19:15:13 2017 Return-Path: <7riw77@gmail.com> X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9253D126C0F for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:15:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id vlfu_--EmCSD for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x242.google.com (mail-oi0-x242.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::242]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BC40A1200A0 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x242.google.com with SMTP id d2so4374708oig.2 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:15:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date:message-id :mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=OHk/E2Cmu2pG5fNuTOOAbLTzon3irL1hXjIEPHZRe3g=; b=G8coqawxrCwhPuiaxc8QyXP3sS1OfvQBmAxIOVd0JaW/BgMYW6P6b2xT09caoyv4UF wjPjNHOaTNbsNmt+5gieuEw09j97JpduDG0TZTggKmrYCUhTS+4THHD/3J0WjzMyepAh VWYVPDo57wzCI6QnhmDqJLK2kV6vBtz8a5+um/UjOdmTqSPZ/17XzG43Y4XHFCSQO/OY NjsUio08o8s5btotSPaFPk40uOLr/e5d7wqBYDww/drxutKTL9GE+VQNMKkrb67I1Xfm mPeBnnl1Hj3PvWLpX19722va9ngk3a68LWNP2eXJhwNTcdoV5om1xm4toY6TlaoMPavQ /LtA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:references:in-reply-to:subject:date :message-id:mime-version:content-transfer-encoding:thread-index :content-language; bh=OHk/E2Cmu2pG5fNuTOOAbLTzon3irL1hXjIEPHZRe3g=; b=Uy5r/9m8S/z5jKVwuxw3+slwxocqK7GeM//tWHX7pLdihHMjUZ538jSc2CzfZOYJeN Vidy8vSDWI6CN2nxcuBXYxHJO3CQP3tZjGbr07y52bCF2S2j6GQFuzpmcjB2LOiNKcuE bbnCTb7v8p6HmjaAgZYVTfkIDIaTnJ3gG6zl94MjEW6tiwwrcklMtXbURCwXkdV8t5Xf 0jOSCUE3csKtiu/SEvtKVNimP4RVXKeT4HnvUnKgbx6w76lFpvFCPFqUKTKOgr95lQR4 1aa/TFR8JSIeh3ZPz2BuUTIy9pRN60nJC/GorTC6Ma66YT6VBK41wJWWmLK3MECMgXce 0sAA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H2jPvQ6SEC+af0XLYscNJFGUNBnzO0te0emTHODBruR+tlt8fXhgYRGf6hRBJseJQ== X-Received: by 10.202.83.11 with SMTP id h11mr3714360oib.63.1491012909178; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:15:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from Russ ([2602:30a:2e5b:44d0:1dbe:b26f:375b:fa27]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i35sm3308323otc.7.2017.03.31.19.15.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:15:08 -0700 (PDT) From: "Russ White" <7riw77@gmail.com> To: "'Brian E Carpenter'" , "'Gert Doering'" , "'Fred Baker'" Cc: "'IPv6 Ops WG'" References: <99e762f3-5246-2039-4b22-83e36293e61a@nlogic.no> <58DE7B25.7020409@foobar.org> <7D55CAB4-0581-47AD-9BCF-CF511E57E3DA@gmail.com> <20170331190440.GC25069@Space.Net> <95d85a60-c700-f3bc-9142-a150cc119a57@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <95d85a60-c700-f3bc-9142-a150cc119a57@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:15:04 -0400 Message-ID: <022301d2aa8d$c725a750$5570f5f0$@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook 16.0 Thread-Index: AQGz+X+6yMqyLanOYYGkeqQOG6kIewGg/H8hAjHKp14BkDD4mwK/WuP9Awez7BECWVdYRgGUQrn5AYEPuBwCLehV4ADMPCiCAh5Ix0mhP51bcA== Content-Language: en-us Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 02:15:12 -0000 > > (Now, if an operator *decides* that he doesn't care about phones = from > > vendor Z in his network, and willingly turns off the "MUST!" bit in > > his network, breaking Z's, then he gets what you describe: ignoring = a > > MUST will break things). > > > > Unfortunately, there is no such MUST today. >=20 > Exactly. And as a result, we have real-world problems where users = cannot > connect out of the box. Although there is no solution to this for = legacy kit, > we can tilt the balance in favour of interoperabiliy by a MUST for = future host > *and* router implementations (code) and deployments (default config). = I > think that is the only rational way forward. I think the way forward, without continuing to tie ourselves in = knots--=F0=9F=98=8A--maybe be this -- simply say both MUST be = implemented, because: - some folks prefer one, other folks prefer the other - I have not heard a single argument from anyone along the lines of = "this is not important, neither needs to be implemented" I can add a note someplace in the document that says something like-- "This document contains recommendations and requirements for = implementations, rather than deployment. As such, it contains some = overlapping requirements because there is no clear consensus in the = operator community on which feature is better, or because requirements = vary enough that both are technically valid choices. In these = situations, the primary point is that as implementations are used across = a wide array of operator networks, and the service the requirements = supports is, itself, required for the proper functioning of a large = scale network, overlapping features sets may be included here." That's pretty rough, because it's late a night, and my brain is tired, = but it might be a starting point? =F0=9F=98=8A /r=20 From nobody Fri Mar 31 19:25:42 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59C0D1286CA for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:25:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4jAaWntIIJU2 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x235.google.com (mail-io0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7DF711271DF for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:25:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x235.google.com with SMTP id l7so49848900ioe.3 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:25:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fugue-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=NjN5cYJTuVTwq1k7NdY3L3bER7BfQ8aDJ+Cylg9kuiY=; b=QyGU4qUrYUkLSopwsPiF/YpyX/HpDuR+HIpl54J8p/ofFqZuUvgQf/NWWlRU1WWs3+ dvMiHSJcHkAyRfEC4w4Vcu3K2Scobh92CDH8ev6Wp4fB7j4IXBXvE3Gor2UpiYQEi5Bj QgeqxSvr2swsMAtAp4fnCcLuNVd0V7DXhGjxl0LgQmbbkWVU58Qh2l8aUuInTSldhBId yyA0Zk68bcVztY+20XuSUfFWZmEw+B/reBS4zK7DrwC6Owwr2zj0HYvyS4Ab62L1B7Dg tqiT5+29tKGm8ab9ZWk6HmclvmXKD6BNazticDow5LTNGrA/8ZDS+XGqb/xLLtmOFthW HuRQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=NjN5cYJTuVTwq1k7NdY3L3bER7BfQ8aDJ+Cylg9kuiY=; b=F/mQCUFGepoFTK7zkQp/4fqCK2+imtJUAc9p5jlenNVC8q5yzQq3e8Ii6XSYvpXXwJ Rk8f53GJPuzJJlNKmFHSVfdWzc7+PB+yXpwvQicD5WZw67d5+htyM6Hr68kmtIbcGYiY laeO4PhetOew9jL7mCHQA+csI0a1hQIKEoa1zHHcJjDVTJvpDFDchn04ZiHlRGjSu1jI T/Cp5rj0mkulVbWmPIPXCb8BPosCa1pe1SnDAxdQuglJAChv8Qw2Q6Tedsq1gqxEImG5 QOrH8I73GE8LhS1yBi8iW2kf1YJ3A+xMAC7++JLZ4e7O/9ZUZtzAyCenA+79L6NdXem6 zwaQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3fcIWUl+DxBqf4RJyHYmk1yEwB0JkSGBwbS5XKBY/VlkC4/ZIrfsQ84gdg0L9fyQ== X-Received: by 10.107.31.11 with SMTP id f11mr7780039iof.183.1491013538921; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [172.20.2.23] (swissotel07.s.subnet.rcn.com. [216.80.61.6]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m125sm4168602iom.38.2017.03.31.19.25.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:25:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Ted Lemon Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8EB05FA1-2A7C-497D-8974-CDC1BC0B727B" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 21:25:35 -0500 In-Reply-To: <022301d2aa8d$c725a750$5570f5f0$@gmail.com> Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Gert Doering , Fred Baker , IPv6 Ops WG To: Russ White <7riw77@gmail.com> References: <99e762f3-5246-2039-4b22-83e36293e61a@nlogic.no> <58DE7B25.7020409@foobar.org> <7D55CAB4-0581-47AD-9BCF-CF511E57E3DA@gmail.com> <20170331190440.GC25069@Space.Net> <95d85a60-c700-f3bc-9142-a150cc119a57@gmail.com> <022301d2aa8d$c725a750$5570f5f0$@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 02:25:41 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8EB05FA1-2A7C-497D-8974-CDC1BC0B727B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Mar 31, 2017, at 9:15 PM, Russ White <7riw77@gmail.com> wrote: > That's pretty rough, because it's late a night, and my brain is tired, = but it might be a starting point? The trick is that it's really easy to require RDNSS, but requiring = stateless DHCP is a lot harder, because you have to say precisely what = that means, and get it right. The specifications for when to use = stateless DHCP, for example, are pretty vague. I agree that this _seems_ pretty obvious in the abstract, but the devil = is in the details. --Apple-Mail=_8EB05FA1-2A7C-497D-8974-CDC1BC0B727B Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii On Mar 31, 2017, at 9:15 PM, Russ White <7riw77@gmail.com> = wrote:
That's pretty = rough, because it's late a night, and my brain is tired, but it might be = a starting point?

The = trick is that it's really easy to require RDNSS, but requiring stateless = DHCP is a lot harder, because you have to say precisely what that means, = and get it right.   The specifications for when to use stateless = DHCP, for example, are pretty vague.

I agree that this _seems_ pretty = obvious in the abstract, but the devil is in the details.

= --Apple-Mail=_8EB05FA1-2A7C-497D-8974-CDC1BC0B727B-- From nobody Fri Mar 31 19:49:12 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6B72012708C for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:49:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id BQ2OLc881xc2 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from boreas.isi.edu (boreas.isi.edu [128.9.160.161]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C49EE12704A for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.189] (cpe-172-250-240-132.socal.res.rr.com [172.250.240.132]) (authenticated bits=0) by boreas.isi.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id v312mTqP018019 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES128-SHA bits=128 verify=NOT); Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:48:30 -0700 (PDT) To: Russ White <7riw77@gmail.com>, "'Ron Bonica'" , "'IPv6 Ops WG'" References: <020401d2a96c$0d320630$27961290$@gmail.com> <03a118c6-e352-6f01-5283-46f4ff54727e@isi.edu> <018501d2aa8a$f1137a40$d33a6ec0$@gmail.com> From: Joe Touch Message-ID: <7c09ccb9-5971-3f5b-ac07-62622814be4a@isi.edu> Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 19:48:27 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <018501d2aa8a$f1137a40$d33a6ec0$@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-ISI-4-43-8-MailScanner: Found to be clean X-MailScanner-From: touch@isi.edu Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Comments on draft-ali-ipv6rtr-reqs-02 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 02:49:10 -0000 Hi, Russ, On 3/31/2017 6:54 PM, Russ White wrote: > >> IMO, the related requirement might be "configurable", but indicating how is >> out of scope unless you demand support for a particular protocol. >> I see no valid reason to require TELNET vs. any other service over which >> configuration can be achieved. > Let me put this another way: some sets of features make a network easier to operate. Others make a network more difficult to operate. What I've heard from operators (including my operational folks) is what is in the draft. This is not a document that says, "this is what is technically best," or "this is what is the most advanced." Instead, this document was designed just to give operators a chance to say, "this is what I expect to see in a router on which I deploy IPv6." I see BCPs as a place where operator advice goes. IMO, requirements are a different thing, esp. when we're defining what it means to "be" something. That's why I saw this as the IPv6 corollary to RFC1812 and why I found it lacking in that regard. Joe From nobody Fri Mar 31 22:17:19 2017 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3794E127097 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:17:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.701 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.701 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id C5kVzZ6KJlvz for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vk0-x22a.google.com (mail-vk0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400c:c05::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B71A2129537 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:17:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-vk0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id d188so105766307vka.0 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:17:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=TOb5sBoSymMXC/9gTjGzm3tyjGqAKUDFmLxjeZrJIj4=; b=R8oYEI3myABaTIPXgZiBQaNzCrIjDPAFm6cvQskZ98h3AtWzXni0/0EF6HZs6oVHPN 5icNw2WLtc8BbGhho7/mFE3VBg2xvbKmhAePsJlIw6VDiVq8wZGe3i817wZksOSt9EaT bblJEapN5BDAFlwO8ew7qbfvlb6Ki72bScvbzZEhcelynrTgMGX08e0wZoJujOGoHExI NNQqzv88moGNh3Q1YA1YrejJiEETnloZVi9Dqfa4astB6NAZsmTJEEVyv5KGL0I1sVPR 4k4QaaMvKFRVVQVwHmzKyutjBgFgcj0nASuvJLLxkPMIceP0bNloFi6USDLidGBKNSKJ GPPg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=TOb5sBoSymMXC/9gTjGzm3tyjGqAKUDFmLxjeZrJIj4=; b=QPKKvFHxcnffI6Dw173K/aeEHxokRtnhIyetkozpCs8iK++ylMzu3O1mYrktJag29N +T7TJdsn9jf1gGwjl0BlTQ6VVQ3q/RIqqo7DVWtk+gz89jl9wf32AfLEe7y4ptbQy9mj crDTqXQzqdhIs4Jqdk0yW1LsWpQRhSA/E1GrxgoCnjFj+5uS7JONI2q9c+ISWifc0xkd 9gmeMdiI19r9f+7dPgB0tJYy5HWM6VwDvSSHTXCTwnWGexLtMaLJSPWxA3cmL/ba4MTZ ReyuT8XGpZsSlWwKiGcdlfpCEw5PIqaeJ97QVFNGing4rcWzkgdWfHU895NuCmyN4YVu n3Rw== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3RHOrg/k4ai9iq+Lim/lNlERYY2j6FB3OA08A80isWpQ+wEsiXMUURvpzSZBCy3X7xT1rr8Hesm2aikEQK X-Received: by 10.31.107.93 with SMTP id g90mr3116651vkc.155.1491023831703; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:17:11 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.31.137.142 with HTTP; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 22:16:50 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <022301d2aa8d$c725a750$5570f5f0$@gmail.com> References: <99e762f3-5246-2039-4b22-83e36293e61a@nlogic.no> <58DE7B25.7020409@foobar.org> <7D55CAB4-0581-47AD-9BCF-CF511E57E3DA@gmail.com> <20170331190440.GC25069@Space.Net> <95d85a60-c700-f3bc-9142-a150cc119a57@gmail.com> <022301d2aa8d$c725a750$5570f5f0$@gmail.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Sat, 1 Apr 2017 00:16:50 -0500 Message-ID: To: Russ White <7riw77@gmail.com> Cc: Brian E Carpenter , Gert Doering , Fred Baker , IPv6 Ops WG Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a11478dd0d79b22054c1409dd Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] Making RDNSS a MUST? X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 01 Apr 2017 05:17:17 -0000 --001a11478dd0d79b22054c1409dd Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Mar 31, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Russ White <7riw77@gmail.com> wrote: > I think the way forward, without continuing to tie ourselves in > knots--=F0=9F=98=8A--maybe be this -- simply say both MUST be implemented= , because: > > - some folks prefer one, other folks prefer the other > - I have not heard a single argument from anyone along the lines of "this > is not important, neither needs to be implemented" > That was what draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration proposed, and there was strong pushback from major host OS developers against making both of them a MUST. Examples: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg25536.html https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg25583.html I think that's unlikely to reach consensus. On the other hand, there seems to be less opposition to making RDNSS a MUST. The main objections so far appears to be of the form "if we make RDNSS a MUST we should make DHCPv6 a MUST as well", but given the pushback from host OS developers I don't think that's likely. --001a11478dd0d79b22054c1409dd Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On F= ri, Mar 31, 2017 at 9:15 PM, Russ White <7riw77@gmail.com> wr= ote:
I think the way f= orward, without continuing to tie ourselves in knots--=F0=9F=98=8A--maybe b= e this -- simply say both MUST be implemented, because:

- some folks prefer one, other folks prefer the other
- I have not heard a single argument from anyone along the lines of "t= his is not important, neither needs to be implemented"

That was what draft-gont-v6ops-host-configuration prop= osed, and there=C2=A0was strong pushback from major host OS developers agai= nst making both of them a MUST. Examples:

https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg25583.html

I think that's unlikely to reach consensus.=

On the other hand, there seems to be less opposit= ion to making RDNSS a MUST. The main objections so far appears to be of the= form "if we make RDNSS a MUST we should make DHCPv6 a MUST as well&qu= ot;, but given the pushback from host OS developers I don't think that&= #39;s likely.
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