From nobody Tue Apr 3 18:49:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 26190127863; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 18:49:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ERElBm6EZXsq; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 18:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x231.google.com (mail-pl0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87207126B6D; Tue, 3 Apr 2018 18:49:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x231.google.com with SMTP id k6-v6so6656716pls.5; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 18:49:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=+NrNAGo1jOAMAcJNB6CoL4JBwxY/aMFaJjcmWxxFdnQ=; b=Q1diADQtL4+R6yfsvJ+aFTgUsgSFF+i6b1mLISCLwty13pD0V+lit6wsHd9sV00qKr UbOoQ/Lh1bIGIb+AK9/PK1Vu/LoWksnJhxMT9XGCyYQqZuzXW9rM/1gWoYH3UT0D4+rC jC8E+JQ2jyZgTmdkonqCGcUICfQjCzKGfBo1hstvl+tj0bx4g2GCHoDi+h2ocYV8n0O/ lTxH8odelHbho6hyu03YR2a3WH2KYXtbn5J4/BkNVGofql/xAR3LPXD+zdUGi01EiHb5 d2bU4SzxTSMZp9dk4XtbacT56kYjHBbvF4WEIFdrjTlSLmupuxlt8ZDdmxWw5ukdlyMd DvOw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+NrNAGo1jOAMAcJNB6CoL4JBwxY/aMFaJjcmWxxFdnQ=; b=oKhp5mGvpZIyath5QXmOR9gfXC0IPx5hClmQZSIg8Zut2YWxC+2+PV22l2FbaT8vzv aJKUYhckv+ROYC0a+k5NypSSWabtX/2EyroZXa9hwTcrgrKT8VBMj+UYIwHIX6lPgjw/ mCreFLxHWVIUxttZZZQQnrH23M+AHkDCTTBFtsijIFS7RvbR6MAhA5sY3QBiyEJpyems wP6BNIlgWDUThTpRhX/6ZjKimYJFPGmHxyOPz8vkIlLeHsSD3GOARVOAPqPB/AeaYq2L su4dnokFE5mhxlCkdEsdaP5D7FVCFweqM3quQzcDJtV5GjskPi57GBzOcHZCXcJ/YHvy AMOQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FYQdEnz5rsFd1MrfAObokISea6x7awwDav7bzlHNK9S0VxzwW/ li0yD3AmfXfdLV1dE4QZlFvaQg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48S7D/jAJZYK2AMK6vIiat7wGHR1Z407cVyE+jxKPBGtARJhBJniXa015eAQT2bs3HIrleROg== X-Received: by 10.99.186.72 with SMTP id l8mr10930053pgu.410.1522806564816; Tue, 03 Apr 2018 18:49:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [130.216.38.50] (sc-cs-567-laptop.uoa.auckland.ac.nz. [130.216.38.50]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y14sm7504899pff.81.2018.04.03.18.49.21 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Apr 2018 18:49:23 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Brian Carpenter To: Jeff Tantsura , v6ops@ietf.org Cc: rtgwg-chairs , v6ops-chairs@ietf.org References: <794587A2-46DF-4F2F-86B5-56083D0864A5@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <9a3234af-cc1a-1054-b6d1-3baa7ad7ca81@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 4 Apr 2018 13:49:22 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.6.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <794587A2-46DF-4F2F-86B5-56083D0864A5@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] RTGWG last call draft-ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 04 Apr 2018 01:49:27 -0000 Hi, Generally I like this draft, but there are a couple of issues IMHO: > 5.1. Shim6 ...> We do not consider Shim6 to be a viable solution. It suffers from > the fact that it requires widespread deployment of Shim6 on hosts all > over the Internet before the host at a PA multihomed site sees > significant benefit. However, there appears to be no motivation for > the vast majority of hosts on the Internet (which are not at PA > multihomed sites) to deploy Shim6. This may help explain why Shim6 > has not been widely implemented. I don't think the chicken-and-egg issue was the main problem with shim6. IMHO there were three problems: 1) The fact that the Internet is not transparent to shim6 headers; 2) The fact that source-address based routing is not readily available (sounds familiar?); 3) The rather surprising negative reaction to shim6 from many ISPs, apparently because they viewed it as a loss of control. Those three facts made the incremental deployment model infeasible. But does it matter? I'd tend to delete the whole paragraph. The only fact that matters is the lack of deployment. > 5.2. IPv6-to-IPv6 Network Prefix Translation ... > Until that occurs, NPTv6 should still > be considered a viable option to enable PA multihoming for > enterprises. Most of this section is not about NPTv6; it's about deployment challenges for your main proposal. That's fine and worth explaining. However, the real issue is that advocating NPTv6 will delay progress on this draft for something that really doesn't belong in the routing area. In many peoples' opinion, this is not something the IETF should say, and it's definitely contentious. Much better, IMHO, to simply ignore NPTv6 in this draft, and stick to your own knitting. draft-ietf-v6ops-ula-usage-considerations should be the place to discuss this issue, although it seems to be on hold. Regards Brian From nobody Wed Apr 4 23:15:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1771A120725; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 23:15:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FtXXqQAco1UU; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 23:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x229.google.com (mail-wm0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2FEA01200FC; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 23:15:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x229.google.com with SMTP id g8so2654735wmd.2; Wed, 04 Apr 2018 23:15:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=Fsh9f9ygom1nRAFnLSFslDouSZmVDmPWq911VU0Q4Dg=; b=lpXV28rjjVhJQIA6fwQIhDDcfhvZAyrebPksv4Ue858B+u5zerUpOlVdmVrUk1OYa8 K4+mLudDKfGmk/Y1SdPVPpHKyuuJcAprLJcOR5dJ3pSDFn4KmErkmfgvqXFesbffg6pW xHcq4pkNZtz334UWEGp0Z+kbil1vFBfkhx+XjfZeh5RGVgFOPWccMI7JWG0PbyWbK/7L 0DZCzPlfwSN0aqbK8XrWhGUr5+jaNOZVPNM8ubyY19hb9LS9ooWlNVTne3qGwTpwHxdY wgSA6j6jbdyOuz3qKPSK0NHDMQ/SBZze73UDpJBCx3+duj4iuQHDtCZtY1/CPi3C6vm3 hP7g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=Fsh9f9ygom1nRAFnLSFslDouSZmVDmPWq911VU0Q4Dg=; b=paJIa8aCKXijd4QEWM/qKvsjfxsiU1aRaIHUCKAXKy3TO4zm80+EckhzO/UKxh1ZMK 21twQSE3uEhFZSG2rPPZLFZwDsCP2uQYAJyGhco9PoGhaEGlHmihCVKuT4ZFX1cx+dpF vdZZjyH1msBWjsD9/Bf6aWABcrnEb8CEgtNc3njpxFC+kT6SVrhLD0TZKzGL+JUzXOF+ Zobg0Qx7K69irZaMiH51DJTrlHt9QUgjWpwN94E/z3GenOuRLfsn6iVeXYtZ2ZL7pKEx 3HRC3dNcJSnwU5ydAMOuva0PbEkvSaXb8gYJDgvbYicl1ODrIPL7+uwpHNgAoMJW8lsS YUNQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tBMPiKnX8l0uXPEXUY46fXWfRKCE+7xn5jZdUfpuFchdqbJol1E ke1O6AaL62KaUNCRY0D2tSQ2ij5DhtNFQvnrS64= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/3oY7lzZHfsFRU5KHzkgfa24ofXV9F2EG6vKToSCiVW8/T8VdlyOzkdmnTT83jQvjnwAIAhheQP4qIFdlbEYQ= X-Received: by 10.46.18.70 with SMTP id t67mr12748095lje.137.1522908953553; Wed, 04 Apr 2018 23:15:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:c742:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 4 Apr 2018 23:15:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <9a3234af-cc1a-1054-b6d1-3baa7ad7ca81@gmail.com> References: <794587A2-46DF-4F2F-86B5-56083D0864A5@gmail.com> <9a3234af-cc1a-1054-b6d1-3baa7ad7ca81@gmail.com> From: Jen Linkova Date: Thu, 5 Apr 2018 16:15:32 +1000 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Jeff Tantsura , V6 Ops List , rtgwg-chairs , v6ops-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] RTGWG last call draft-ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 06:15:57 -0000 Brian, Thanks a lot for reading such a long document and for your comments! > Generally I like this draft, but there are a couple of issues IMHO: > >> 5.1. Shim6 > ....> We do not consider Shim6 to be a viable solution. It suffers from >> the fact that it requires widespread deployment of Shim6 on hosts all >> over the Internet before the host at a PA multihomed site sees >> significant benefit. However, there appears to be no motivation for >> the vast majority of hosts on the Internet (which are not at PA >> multihomed sites) to deploy Shim6. This may help explain why Shim6 >> has not been widely implemented. > > I don't think the chicken-and-egg issue was the main problem with shim6. > IMHO there were three problems: > 1) The fact that the Internet is not transparent to shim6 headers; > 2) The fact that source-address based routing is not readily > available (sounds familiar?); > 3) The rather surprising negative reaction to shim6 from many > ISPs, apparently because they viewed it as a loss of control. > Those three facts made the incremental deployment model infeasible. > > But does it matter? I'd tend to delete the whole paragraph. The > only fact that matters is the lack of deployment. I believe the point here is a particular multihomed enterprise can not use Shim6 as a solution because Shim6 has to be globally supported first and it's not happening (as opposed to NAT-PT, for example: if a given network really wants to use it, it could be enabled and used). How about I remove the second part of the paragraph, starting from 'However, there appears to be no motivation.."? >> 5.2. IPv6-to-IPv6 Network Prefix Translation > .... >> Until that occurs, NPTv6 should still >> be considered a viable option to enable PA multihoming for >> enterprises. > > Most of this section is not about NPTv6; it's about deployment > challenges for your main proposal. That's fine and worth explaining. > However, the real issue is that advocating NPTv6 will delay progress > on this draft for something that really doesn't belong in the routing > area. In many peoples' opinion, this is not something the IETF > should say, and it's definitely contentious. > > Much better, IMHO, to simply ignore NPTv6 in this draft, and > stick to your own knitting. So do you think the whole section 5 shall be removed? (the deployment challenges could be discussed in the separate section) -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Thu Apr 5 13:44:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B6A7112D7E2; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 13:44:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pAZ6KyGExeXT; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 13:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x235.google.com (mail-pl0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B15D01200B9; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 13:44:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x235.google.com with SMTP id v5-v6so18929414plo.4; Thu, 05 Apr 2018 13:44:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ajlu0AKd0f0hM9iywBhhGCvFRIBGXWzth0LCLEITEW0=; b=Hk4i8o52N7ny5FmLUayBA10Brotx36gsOsXePy7Nq/8pKu2uE9NsdtwjY4GCZN7LCX TI/lH5qLxB0Gpf/ZFz6hwg5FUqFySf9Q1Gr/lmy2GC/jPiV03xWM5Ws+wZuTTsDMa7rY gS1cYbO7c7cuIYAz3zf+2jZLRc/ps7njasw3x8BMRLhO9by9ykFv4XUGOtOdixWFLCng tt4m0yOedwXcLib+Pwy4F6xL8eNaJRKlYrY3vtFC3/Zu+ic2JY4Na/FYixs2jCC5vR01 IQEkT8UePXrQjQ/fiEhY9zd5TNHva0Ywp0pxLMMboPZS0sDbWchpoiqgaouetZM24c5g yU0A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=Ajlu0AKd0f0hM9iywBhhGCvFRIBGXWzth0LCLEITEW0=; b=q0tDSfyjY8styyakEXwdwWcJfZbqt2XCOe2a7Oi0R+1HxuF6dmxL7bpqZ9jfl8UmY/ DUq4atAlVAGLS0mFz6U/dHUIOcq2zoowET8dpD6oAM9JZiEOygHDp8WBVYeMcXorPydo RzIVhNtpCtcNGzKidiTi0hh5tFE4kuE64drdQePt/DN/FkdXUrZscVRBTOvvM8WTeZRV kkEge6+3+39+9DXeetah+MK4t0XVLuZgVsVrd8RCmc8DBgGhcimX7Sf8ynMpwoM8MwYo 5GuUgQ0uwUDspqxETG4OkiOxIdJaVCM7Zc8Lx1DwXUyjZIg/g20YcaAMEdE3LIpZ+/il qOhA== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7HdAw/C82NNBuVvVKJuPuKqrfq01DaBtI6WeGmbJrI+JjvM5hyu rSNeGxWHVnYD0RixN6HxvSTpFQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+2KuGOPHXN+x/MILpdtobLnzv7HLfYovUoptDaMdHFBXK7oa1QLCchR92CnHkWCzcM3Zo4JA== X-Received: by 10.98.76.196 with SMTP id e65mr18464846pfj.35.1522961047977; Thu, 05 Apr 2018 13:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.26] (207.26.255.123.static.snap.net.nz. [123.255.26.207]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m11sm15992832pgc.30.2018.04.05.13.44.04 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 05 Apr 2018 13:44:06 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Brian Carpenter To: Jen Linkova Cc: Jeff Tantsura , V6 Ops List , rtgwg-chairs , v6ops-chairs@ietf.org References: <794587A2-46DF-4F2F-86B5-56083D0864A5@gmail.com> <9a3234af-cc1a-1054-b6d1-3baa7ad7ca81@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 08:44:09 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] RTGWG last call draft-ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 05 Apr 2018 20:44:11 -0000 On 05/04/2018 18:15, Jen Linkova wrote: > Brian, > > Thanks a lot for reading such a long document and for your comments! > >> Generally I like this draft, but there are a couple of issues IMHO: >> >>> 5.1. Shim6 >> ....> We do not consider Shim6 to be a viable solution. It suffers from >>> the fact that it requires widespread deployment of Shim6 on hosts all >>> over the Internet before the host at a PA multihomed site sees >>> significant benefit. However, there appears to be no motivation for >>> the vast majority of hosts on the Internet (which are not at PA >>> multihomed sites) to deploy Shim6. This may help explain why Shim6 >>> has not been widely implemented. >> >> I don't think the chicken-and-egg issue was the main problem with shim6. >> IMHO there were three problems: >> 1) The fact that the Internet is not transparent to shim6 headers; >> 2) The fact that source-address based routing is not readily >> available (sounds familiar?); >> 3) The rather surprising negative reaction to shim6 from many >> ISPs, apparently because they viewed it as a loss of control. >> Those three facts made the incremental deployment model infeasible. >> >> But does it matter? I'd tend to delete the whole paragraph. The >> only fact that matters is the lack of deployment. > > I believe the point here is a particular multihomed enterprise can not > use Shim6 as a solution because Shim6 has to be globally supported > first and it's not happening (as opposed to NAT-PT, for example: if a > given network really wants to use it, it could be enabled and used). > How about I remove the second part of the paragraph, starting from > 'However, there appears to be no motivation.."? Sure. That avoids the discussion, which is an academic question anyway; that fact that Shim6 failed to deploy is enough... >>> 5.2. IPv6-to-IPv6 Network Prefix Translation >> .... >>> Until that occurs, NPTv6 should still >>> be considered a viable option to enable PA multihoming for >>> enterprises. >> >> Most of this section is not about NPTv6; it's about deployment >> challenges for your main proposal. That's fine and worth explaining. >> However, the real issue is that advocating NPTv6 will delay progress >> on this draft for something that really doesn't belong in the routing >> area. In many peoples' opinion, this is not something the IETF >> should say, and it's definitely contentious. >> >> Much better, IMHO, to simply ignore NPTv6 in this draft, and >> stick to your own knitting. > > So do you think the whole section 5 shall be removed? (the deployment > challenges could be discussed in the separate section) Personally, yes. You know the strength of feelings in the IETF on this issue, which is why NPTv6 is Experimental anyway. So why start a flame war when it's a side-issue for your draft anyway? Brian From nobody Thu Apr 5 20:34:27 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 59FC512E04D for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 20:34:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD=-0.01] autolearn=unavailable autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XFk1EpQAoojO for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 20:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x233.google.com (mail-wm0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5190B124BAC for ; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 20:34:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x233.google.com with SMTP id i3so128450wmf.3 for ; Thu, 05 Apr 2018 20:34:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=aZtuIWM0xMDdekgHAEG7m/08RaT3PZNaIKwN8pmbZiM=; b=IKeO0rg9rWssXmcrUWgz4fkWjeR1J4lK5ZcO8g7NO6F7mASG9DTSpOHPzoHxJGizu7 vwHeCnr0TUmhq957cOMxobMo6C8lQfgIGhYzavolf7zaDo52wbNuqQAF87dcH8c1ZG3c ITFyfSUTgYLYxnHFpAzv6xxXeKKSlf6Wvd3iOmMvaou6KaDjtGQyBIRaPcebymsBv3/i YNo5AYk6Qeueh7I+oNDYfwbQwdcrORVirpiBALRnxMkD3X8vVjUzPQWmUPw5PkEenZ7s MT+8g/skTDpi+ZNjFQlV7bIANu6I5BXY9IZUschHmuIRzeXuyQyD7FfT2jBbsJRVjjFc H4Jw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=aZtuIWM0xMDdekgHAEG7m/08RaT3PZNaIKwN8pmbZiM=; b=fS/mWQMO+7a3iNhFXi5rV6n9g3DVP+SUKd/cVKnUGF06sqnHWsV6UoCH6WpepxzriB ydO9mXp1/eZ9nFHf6CMHDn8P1epmJ9y1tnPfdvmRUeAAv9+PtfnsvvWIwlOsU7v47OgH 0Ydl8wLk4IkBwkrG7+p4WWsd6XvJ3ATIFqTNvDwY5ysDDwOpyZqCzAdcL2eI9Bi+Qceo dgkTPGvqc++23pO5mM/hw7LB3ON2IKdya2W97f7KpIEdgFZ94d9HA/wPN/KCGIvafBRS i3jlv4Jzb40MNvt4Pnkm4UGyopXmle8FwHvINJODefWS1WrNmGy0E8ZT+HT4OqXV2Iin DdTg== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7EnSNCiVoyr0XqWk1E40QOwpSH8OriHyy7+gLpVIm1vvT7ejowz Xc6Hf4nN4aG5uA26I0uYPwzBNyHB18a+ncP+6qBtGQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+7Ua5jCSKaU1Z4k93s5IMmPPDVE9XaA9XNmGl++TZqmqq65RSVs80e4yTv4xL5welPChIojwnI6uc174novaE= X-Received: by 10.28.85.200 with SMTP id j191mr13425237wmb.127.1522985660564; Thu, 05 Apr 2018 20:34:20 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.142.212 with HTTP; Thu, 5 Apr 2018 20:33:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <794587A2-46DF-4F2F-86B5-56083D0864A5@gmail.com> <9a3234af-cc1a-1054-b6d1-3baa7ad7ca81@gmail.com> From: Lorenzo Colitti Date: Fri, 6 Apr 2018 12:33:59 +0900 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Jen Linkova , Jeff Tantsura , rtgwg-chairs , v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, V6 Ops List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="001a1141f0464c40f0056925bb50" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] RTGWG last call draft-ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 06 Apr 2018 03:34:25 -0000 --001a1141f0464c40f0056925bb50 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 5:44 AM, Brian E Carpenter < brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Much better, IMHO, to simply ignore NPTv6 in this draft, and > >> stick to your own knitting. > > > > So do you think the whole section 5 shall be removed? (the deployment > > challenges could be discussed in the separate section) > > Personally, yes. You know the strength of feelings in the IETF on this > issue, which is why NPTv6 is Experimental anyway. So why start a flame > war when it's a side-issue for your draft anyway? > Indeed. If you mention NPTv6 at all, I would just say it's not a solution because it breaks end-to-end connectivity. --001a1141f0464c40f0056925bb50 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On F= ri, Apr 6, 2018 at 5:44 AM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter= @gmail.com> wrote:
>>= ; Much better, IMHO, to simply ignore NPTv6 in this draft, and
>> stick to your own knitting.
>
> So do you think the whole section 5 shall be removed? (the deployment<= br> > challenges could be discussed in the separate section)

Personally, yes. You know the strength of feelings in the IETF on th= is
issue, which is why NPTv6 is Experimental anyway. So why start a flame
war when it's a side-issue for your draft anyway?
=
Indeed. If you mention NPTv6 at all, I would just say it'= ;s not a solution because it breaks end-to-end connectivity.
--001a1141f0464c40f0056925bb50-- From nobody Sat Apr 7 22:00:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1836D120721 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 22:00:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FFSPr3m3dMRb for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 22:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x233.google.com (mail-pl0-x233.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::233]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D2F291200A0 for ; Sat, 7 Apr 2018 22:00:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x233.google.com with SMTP id e22-v6so1351505plj.12 for ; Sat, 07 Apr 2018 22:00:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:date:subject:message-id:to; bh=7kIahQVYiBljEhPP1NUEdyrsw9o2wxSQMCFhSjKK+lU=; b=SUhBCbI9S0DgWQ0h8XsRcYIUuV99sjXF2sZ2ULybimzq/YACN21OdLw1IXaCFh9mCO cnjYbNL7te0qPRnBFrjDgwqZSy5aue6OwSzLXhp3JbYBS/hEej9lKoWdUBEOA/KJtATv aL4OZ8lMtLj8udKSSeRJo5SuGuo7ydn4bP9VM2HIod6haCeOqabK5QVWe8NyGVrtBPR4 AR2YYUNhagNou+xI0y/h4WROI+85JfY5BjBecdROkjytSZU/qJ1P/BVm91Y7kzRxWIzC j3V5zoNzFbaWqHceXf2MA4Zg8miSOPpfskJAFBPxeyEjixeda8mplws3f7PHYMY+p4t2 qX8g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:subject:message-id:to; bh=7kIahQVYiBljEhPP1NUEdyrsw9o2wxSQMCFhSjKK+lU=; b=iWFa84tdn/J6AGbj4bwj+S5MyTw24TLechDrJSPlwHFR1ifLCSI6kJdTTtdZvsmSj2 UQhiknfDxAN3aSncyFugpbAqaUTeNX77qvsW9WHXNtszxJo2YjPXvIeA6JRuITGcmwJ7 eQDFB3/4d/L4LcZEgh8dNksyggRiE7Tkjp1i0ZkwAD8eAmweXb5UB+Fffkqu353FEPwZ VEwsOGqykgik7fUu4H6R5ySJ3M5wvWAW87e/4JzfBI/pmPkOXyTvSzCFtDlo0Oy3xMBP terrFPWs2WU/z9lma26fO9u+FFgHWyX9jf3KrL8dEKREfSHcNNbyiJMtse9bswHr0gnp 8+Ow== X-Gm-Message-State: AElRT7FQDEp9ZEc1+0G8QP1zalKkdioXE0wJa9rRFgaqLlj9cV1XMhQg n4XcumupviStVeiR9wO8hA2W0tEt X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+RLHiCdgIsjdZEtbdA1C630BzP6FdWi9G4oiyUlBjR7jCFkz6AdCBPdURt9YUCWp8whEPUKw== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:8646:: with SMTP id y6-v6mr34251617plt.182.1523163627848; Sat, 07 Apr 2018 22:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8802:5600:1546::1161? ([2600:8802:5600:1546::1161]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z9sm25266380pfg.183.2018.04.07.22.00.26 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 07 Apr 2018 22:00:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_3009F390-4CE6-434E-8A7D-ABEDB8F38E49"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Sat, 7 Apr 2018 22:00:21 -0700 Message-Id: To: V6 Ops List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 08 Apr 2018 05:00:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_3009F390-4CE6-434E-8A7D-ABEDB8F38E49 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii At IETF 101, Giuseppe Fioccola presented = draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark. The draft is at = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark, and his = presentation deck is at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-ipv6-p= erformance-measurement-with-alternate-marking-method-00. There was also discussion in 6man regarding the encoding mechanism. I'll = refer you to the 6man minutes for that discussion. But to that end, = Roberta Maglione, Giuseppe Fioccola, Bob Hinden, Ole Troan, and I met = for breakfast to discuss this draft. The issue has to do with the = placement of bits and the service provided. The general consensus, as I = understand it, was to recommend that the authors consider the Conex = extension in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7837 7837 IPv6 Destination Option for Congestion Exposure (ConEx). S. Krishnan, M. Kuehlewind, B. Briscoe, C. Ralli. May 2016. (Format: TXT=3D29708 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC7837) and consider how to use unused fields in it in the Hop-by-hop Header. = Ideally, that means including the HBH Header and the indicated option as = transmitted by the source system, so that other systems en route can = inspect and/or update it. Giuseppe will use the existing draft as a vehicle for the present, but = it may or may not be discussed in v6ops. Bob would like Giuseppe to = remove the discussion of the several possible placements and only = discuss this option. It would also be wise for Giuseppe to correspond = with the authors of that RFC, in accordance with the definition of = "experimental" in RFC 2026, to ensure that he and they don't somehow = trip over each other. I would like to invite v6ops discussion. This especially includes the = question of whether it makes useful recommendations for your operational = environment. Related documents include: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark "Multipoint Alternate Marking method for passive and hybrid = performance monitoring", Giuseppe Fioccola, Mauro Cociglio, Amedeo Sapio, Riccardo Sisto, 2018-03-01 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark "Using the IPv6 Flow Label for Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method in Segment Routing", Giuseppe Fioccola, Gunter Van de = Velde, Mauro Cociglio, Praveen Muley, 2017-10-26, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark "IPv6 Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method", Giuseppe Fioccola, Gunter Van de Velde, Mauro Cociglio, Praveen Muley, = 2018-02-26, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fmm-nvo3-pm-alt-mark "Performance Measurement (PM) with Alternate Marking in Network Virtualization Overlays (NVO3)", Giuseppe Fioccola, Gregory Mirsky, = Tal Mizrahi, 2018-03-02 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8321 8321 Alternate-Marking Method for Passive and Hybrid Performance Monitoring. G. Fioccola, Ed., A. Capello, M. Cociglio, L. Castaldelli, M. Chen, L. Zheng, G. Mirsky, T. Mizrahi. January = 2018. (Format: TXT=3D84513 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC8321) --Apple-Mail=_3009F390-4CE6-434E-8A7D-ABEDB8F38E49 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlrJoeYACgkQEhdRnd2G P+B66A//dpzHWC3gkf6kS2xI3wADr3qR0H/05si2Mg77Ej13VaZznobjUygIALVM cVSotIQoCh7iKNo+lRPUzeCxi3Soqx9vDQ+3dfG01HouGlAGULls/wYr0MmB1P+4 pjmibVaeHf/HIEzEpWXdcuccQfr7DcnHKVJ69ywcgDWcRvAFxvkzzhIwStS7yh9+ Qn9JDTbYVz0soMuWI0Ns7wz4F3+ycait6H94pIWBBnXG4NdeCh87vqBES3kWjBWH RfnJfcMaU33K/gayeba4p3tjprzYG88npP98oe+Dx2R4Zt8nE7XYu6IL0G/7bGg4 I579/oRDcpPVVGWD8mTxLJ4jFbpCcRZ/NoShn6D3vt992C9R4Xm0wEcJ+HYK3sqw eImWXgzflFMj/ezbK2O3shatXUgsMIOv65PiK20x0niBsPNRC0+DNdjcDwxsbl2P re4ZEb1Dl9VGjpb8SN6zvBOaHEB7a2e/j7/TktFsFR1c89NNJ/NH/hDEJFLYyp2a EiMIBg8k2IHHOUUONCCHJ6wnKo7m+P4lcTTxBu1zTucsBr8VzhkYEktkxE6+XX8i LoQaPaCOhmfHJYjXTtySNJ3UHeUbBgVYw3FBn5sY8FXlx1p+0YjUFMgvnP+tFlD7 i4OwB0MgCGkC8/uDXmovAyQo3paAVQ6wGlhMWtOA6GZ/rxCCqIM= =OdVS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_3009F390-4CE6-434E-8A7D-ABEDB8F38E49-- From nobody Mon Apr 9 12:27:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1B16012D77D for ; 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:SN6PR05MB4365; H:SN6PR05MB4240.namprd05.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: juniper.net does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: fgq3tfQx0wtvDTLVIiQzsFhi20A9zLpqz00TskDOLaVUX/sEN5VgcYqCC9vEQoUbt/1Yfa6bGCRS+ceeW8kp0s7ZrsMTh6+Rw496tKIAaLy2itG/SbDYZUTlzLNNuQJu7UpAaSTqq7aiWyzoo+g/99KAjId+NrDEuf8+hc+1FquG0ymGfuXsUCgK2pO6Sq6xEDpY0VF9v6YBv2zdlEbZIMGSdpXfr7kqTjSVBYSa+C3+dmepplFesX/2FUx3I79BIJswyHrz/Av0VN48+5CfZzicw3XG2kyVeUd3vxj3jJTR8LMLtosnljNbH6MxIkX+6V5puPVWeR7daFPWYwlA+VCW3ggLkTjCUfZRGJDxm3Ssy4vwVPB8hSMh4vyQVvh0BIqXEpAVCJU7TZi02L5xWlAvED+yx39xD0qHdhOonJU= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 1b51e789-045c-4952-5541-08d59e4fe9b0 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 09 Apr 2018 19:27:20.2264 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR05MB4365 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-04-09_08:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804090196 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras WGLC X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 09 Apr 2018 19:27:25 -0000 Folks, AFAIKS, all of the LC comments regarding draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras h= ave been addressed. (If I have that wrong, somebody please correct me.) So, I will progress the draft as soon as I can recruit a document shepherd. Ron > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops On Behalf Of Fred Baker > Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 2:01 AM > To: V6 Ops List > Subject: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras WGLC >=20 > As discussed at IETF 101, we are opening a Working Group Last Call on dra= ft- > ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras. Please read the draft now. The chairs need to > understand both whether you think this is valuable in an operational > environment such as yours, and if there are issues in the draft, what tho= se > might be. This will close April 8. >=20 From nobody Tue Apr 10 01:45:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 263AD127369; Tue, 10 Apr 2018 01:45:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RUTnRgZAw6hZ; Tue, 10 Apr 2018 01:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx01.telecomitalia.it (mx01.telecomitalia.it [217.169.121.10]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 590A51200A0; Tue, 10 Apr 2018 01:44:57 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: d9a9790a-74dff70000001185-76-5acc7987b8fd Received: from TELMBXA02RM001.telecomitalia.local ( [10.14.252.26]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx01.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id 0F.C6.04485.7897CCA5; Tue, 10 Apr 2018 10:44:55 +0200 (CEST) From: Fioccola Giuseppe To: Fred Baker , V6 Ops List CC: "draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion Thread-Index: AQHTzvaYClDUCxLuFkeWlE5vi/AbcKP5p2Vw Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 08:44:54 +0000 Message-ID: <397377f9ac4141a184af766d39337934@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.14.252.245] x-ti-disclaimer: Disclaimer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrMKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCxfdHSre98kyUwd0fghbHpjUyW9z+2sBq cfrYXmYHZo+ds+6yeyxZ8pMpgCmqgdEmMS8vvySxJFUhJbU42VbJJbM4OScxMze1SCEkNSc1 OT9XSSEzxVbJWEmhICcxOTU3Na/EVimxoCA1L0XJjksBA9gAlWXmKaTmJeenZOal2yp5Bvvr WliYWuoaKtkFlqYWl+Qr5KYWFyemp2fmK6QmrBfMaDi6hL3giWzFv/cCDYwPJboYOTkkBEwk Fr7pZ+9i5OIQEpjKJNH48w0jSIJNwEbi4KsTbF2MHBwiAu4Sbb/rQcLMAokSPVcPgZUICzhK vNg2kR3EFhFwltj1/y8jRLmRxLR2PZAwi4CqxJuPy8DKeQUCJZ5deAdWLgQ0fUr3EbA4p4Ct xMZ1q1lBbEYBWYkJuxcxQqwSl3gx/QQ7xJkCEkv2nGeGsEUlXj7+xwphG0hsXbqPBcJWlLi9 bylUXEZi4ZHJrBBzdCQW7P7EBmFrSyxb+JoZ4h5BiZMzn7BMYBSbhWTdLCQts5C0zELSsoCR ZRWjaG6FgaFeCSTyMksSczIT9TJLNjECU8bNlZVcOxhfr3I+xCjAwajEw7un8EyUEGtiWXFl 7iFGCQ5mJRHeg4tPRwnxpiRWVqUW5ccXleakFh9i9AGG2ERmKdHkfGA6yyuJNzSxsDQ0trAw MrQwM8UhrCTO+68caLxAOjB1ZaemFqQWwYxj4uCUamCUUMuyq9vksXHL7Nxr9z3bNM//3Xgs fZHl/D1h/+Qb+Z4Il3pm9Pn0sbu80H5TI6XlbFAfNn1jHvvXtMXbuNbUvchJ3pf6dcmHjwe/ fwsQ3b275HjnZivuLu8Zv3znq+ouyV2s/FyR4YnGwZ6vJr1TNr3RFypvtIs9cD3zc7/dxXVv Fm5YW7tKiaU4I9FQi7moOBEAY/TwR0YDAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 08:45:01 -0000 Hi Fred, Thank you for the detailed recap. I would only confirm that we will work on a new revision of draft-fioccola-v= 6ops-ipv6-alt-mark and propose the use of 2 bits from the reserved field in= the RFC7837 ConEx extension to encode the marking method. In addition it wi= ll be used as HBH Header. Feedbacks from the WG are welcome. Best Regards, Giuseppe -----Messaggio originale----- Da: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di Fred Baker Inviato: domenica 8 aprile 2018 07:00 A: V6 Ops List Oggetto: [v6ops] draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion At IETF 101, Giuseppe Fioccola presented draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark.= The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-m= ark, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/10= 1/materials/slides-101-v6ops-ipv6-performance-measurement-with-alternate-mar= king-method-00. There was also discussion in 6man regarding the encoding mechanism. I'll ref= er you to the 6man minutes for that discussion. But to that end, Roberta Mag= lione, Giuseppe Fioccola, Bob Hinden, Ole Troan, and I met for breakfast to= discuss this draft. The issue has to do with the placement of bits and the= service provided. The general consensus, as I understand it, was to recomme= nd that the authors consider the Conex extension in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7837 7837 IPv6 Destination Option for Congestion Exposure (ConEx). S. Krishnan, M. Kuehlewind, B. Briscoe, C. Ralli. May 2016. (Format: TXT=3D29708 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC7837) and consider how to use unused fields in it in the Hop-by-hop Header. Ideall= y, that means including the HBH Header and the indicated option as transmitt= ed by the source system, so that other systems en route can inspect and/or u= pdate it. Giuseppe will use the existing draft as a vehicle for the present, but it ma= y or may not be discussed in v6ops. Bob would like Giuseppe to remove the di= scussion of the several possible placements and only discuss this option. It= would also be wise for Giuseppe to correspond with the authors of that RFC,= in accordance with the definition of "experimental" in RFC 2026, to ensure= that he and they don't somehow trip over each other. I would like to invite v6ops discussion. This especially includes the questi= on of whether it makes useful recommendations for your operational environme= nt. Related documents include: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark "Multipoint Alternate Marking method for passive and hybrid performance monitoring", Giuseppe Fioccola, Mauro Cociglio, Amedeo Sapio, Riccardo Sisto, 2018-03-01 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark "Using the IPv6 Flow Label for Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method in Segment Routing", Giuseppe Fioccola, Gunter Van de Velde= , Mauro Cociglio, Praveen Muley, 2017-10-26, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark "IPv6 Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method", Giuseppe Fioccola, Gunter Van de Velde, Mauro Cociglio, Praveen Muley, 2018-02-26, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fmm-nvo3-pm-alt-mark "Performance Measurement (PM) with Alternate Marking in Network Virtualization Overlays (NVO3)", Giuseppe Fioccola, Gregory Mirsky, Tal Mizrahi, 2018-03-02 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8321 8321 Alternate-Marking Method for Passive and Hybrid Performance Monitoring. G. Fioccola, Ed., A. Capello, M. Cociglio, L. Castaldelli, M. Chen, L. Zheng, G. Mirsky, T. Mizrahi. January 2018. (Format: TXT=3D84513 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC8321) Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle pers= one indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dalla= conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abbia= te ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di darne= immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione, G= razie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged i= nformation intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, print= ing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended reci= pient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sender= by return e-mail, Thanks. Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BN7PR14MB2353; H:BN7PR14MB2369.namprd14.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: bcbsm.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: aoDYGcRR9XaiQ3meL1VqnosU3qYDL+uKkho4+rGWOzZk4EMksqoO29x2NT545koMIes0bqeSEzyGxWY7c7PUbXvHAA+RrvMpCp80mFe8jfjpIO7XupIHyjqvyqVX2CEz/BaHFm0AxAHsBDuYbVc+W5LDVFld2Gsg0K2wOF2bAN3Mx6z2mcvGMzZkpt1wTtQYzhC2SpnrVplDl5QnZwFIrcCdA5GZE5kI6bmFQFY2HzwkkuIoZm1GMxmDgGyHlII+Iwaer3x0kz3QJSh5d6gLI28lR7Aa6RX+UEN8v6CmPf7lJU1SMwXNPJ2LHFpkjs1upZbfezJJor8BTFymsP2Sw9fKcJXH74wCjVZscvCPHriVVA7pjfG11J3R2+cIN3xHKaWmIgQswCdRXL5V+tCqCvzjUC1ojn24tAciGHAnamY= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: bcbsm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 82db28c8-8af3-4406-74ea-08d59eee2284 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 10 Apr 2018 14:19:56.0366 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 6f56d3fa-5682-4261-b169-bc0d615da17c X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7PR14MB2353 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-VPM-HOST: vmvpm02.z120.zixworks.com X-VPM-GROUP-ID: 6ed320e8-241e-4420-838f-db62fa9692c7 X-VPM-MSG-ID: 6ba4aa17-d589-4845-a6c8-fb4cca65412b X-VPM-ENC-REGIME: Plaintext X-VPM-IS-HYBRID: 0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 14:20:03 -0000 Feedback as an enterprise operator that is hopefully a future user. =20 I think this capability would be very beneficial and be a good compliment = to PDM / RFC8250. In particular for heath determination of = intermediate node links. =20 Nalini and I hope to work with Giuseppe and his team towards this end . Thanks Mike -----Original Message----- From: v6ops =5Bmailto:v6ops-bounces=40ietf.org=5D On Behalf Of Fioccola = Giuseppe Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 4:45 AM To: Fred Baker ; V6 Ops List Cc: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark=40ietf.org Subject: =5Bv6ops=5D R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion Hi Fred, Thank you for the detailed recap. I would only confirm that we will work on a new revision of = draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark and propose the use of 2 bits from the = reserved field in the RFC7837 ConEx extension to encode the marking = method. In addition it will be used as HBH Header. Feedbacks from the WG are welcome. Best Regards, Giuseppe -----Messaggio originale----- Da: v6ops =5Bmailto:v6ops-bounces=40ietf.org=5D Per conto di Fred Baker Inviato: domenica 8 aprile 2018 07:00 A: V6 Ops List Oggetto: =5Bv6ops=5D draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion At IETF 101, Giuseppe Fioccola presented = draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark.. The draft is at = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark, and his = presentation deck is at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-ipv6-pe= rformance-measurement-with-alternate-marking-method-00. There was also discussion in 6man regarding the encoding mechanism. I'll = refer you to the 6man minutes for that discussion. But to that end, = Roberta Maglione, Giuseppe Fioccola, Bob Hinden, Ole Troan, and I met for = breakfast to discuss this draft. The issue has to do with the placement of = bits and the service provided. The general consensus, as I understand it, = was to recommend that the authors consider the Conex extension in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7837 7837 IPv6 Destination Option for Congestion Exposure (ConEx). S. Krishnan, M. Kuehlewind, B. Briscoe, C. Ralli. May 2016. (Format: TXT=3D29708 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC7837) and consider how to use unused fields in it in the Hop-by-hop Header. = Ideally, that means including the HBH Header and the indicated option as = transmitted by the source system, so that other systems en route can = inspect and/or update it. Giuseppe will use the existing draft as a vehicle for the present, but it = may or may not be discussed in v6ops. Bob would like Giuseppe to remove = the discussion of the several possible placements and only discuss this = option. It would also be wise for Giuseppe to correspond with the authors = of that RFC, in accordance with the definition of =22experimental=22 in = RFC 2026, to ensure that he and they don't somehow trip over each other. I would like to invite v6ops discussion. This especially includes the = question of whether it makes useful recommendations for your operational = environment. Related documents include: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark =22Multipoint Alternate Marking method for passive and hybrid performance monitoring=22, Giuseppe Fioccola, Mauro Cociglio, Amedeo Sapio, Riccardo Sisto, 2018-03-01 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark =22Using the IPv6 Flow Label for Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method in Segment Routing=22, Giuseppe Fioccola, Gunter Van de = Velde, Mauro Cociglio, Praveen Muley, 2017-10-26, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark =22IPv6 Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method=22, Giuseppe Fioccola, Gunter Van de Velde, Mauro Cociglio, Praveen Muley, 2018-02-26, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fmm-nvo3-pm-alt-mark =22Performance Measurement (PM) with Alternate Marking in Network Virtualization Overlays (NVO3)=22, Giuseppe Fioccola, Gregory Mirsky, Tal Mizrahi, 2018-03-02 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8321 8321 Alternate-Marking Method for Passive and Hybrid Performance Monitoring. G. Fioccola, Ed., A. Capello, M. Cociglio, L. Castaldelli, M. Chen, L. Zheng, G. Mirsky, T. Mizrahi. January 2018. (Format: TXT=3D84513 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC8321) Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle = persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante = dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. = Qualora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente = pregati di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla = sua distruzione, Grazie.=20 This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged = information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, = printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the = intended recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and = advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks.=20 Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops=40ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops The information contained in this communication is highly confidential and = is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom this = communication is directed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are = hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of = this information is prohibited. Please notify the sender, by electronic = mail or telephone, of any unintended receipt and delete the original = message without making any copies. =20 Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan and Blue Care Network of Michigan are = nonprofit corporations and independent licensees of the Blue Cross and = Blue Shield Association. 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Hi, Giuseppe, 

I have read draft-fioccola-= v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark-00,   and I feel that it = ;is essential to find an agreed way for=  IPv6 performance measurement with Alternate = ;Marking Method, so I give support to t= his work. Frankly speaking, it is the f= irst time for me to touch RFC8321, so&n= bsp;I need more time to understand the = keypoints of this work. However,  I thi= nk it is unsuitable to put the  tw= o bits marking field in DA, for many&nb= sp;operators, the IPv6 address space has bee= n planned and major key bits have been&= nbsp;elaborately defined, so it is difficult = ;to insert new field in the IPv6 address.&nb= sp;
Thank = you
Chongfeng  Xie<= /i>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion

= Fioccola Giuseppe <giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it> = Tue, 10 April 2018 08:45 UTC<= a class=3D"toggle" id=3D"toggle-msg-header" href=3D"https://mailarchive.ie= tf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/GhtlgJjWfPtus7JNfWRoxurCE9s#">Show header

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From: F= ioccola Giuseppe <giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it>
= To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>, V6 Ops List <v6ops@= ietf.org>
CC: "draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark@ietf= .org" <draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark@ietf.org>
= Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion
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= Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 08:44:54 +0000
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Subject: [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6= ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion
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<= /p>

Hi Fred,=0AThank =
you for the detailed recap.=0AI would only confirm that we will work on a =
new revision of draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark and propose the use of =
2 bits from the reserved field in the RFC7837 ConEx extension to encode th=
e marking method. In addition it will be used as HBH Header.=0AFeedbacks f=
rom the WG are welcome.=0ABest Regards,=0AGiuseppe=0A-----Messaggio origin=
ale-----=0ADa: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di Fred Bak=
er=0AInviato: domenica 8 aprile 2018 07:00=0AA: V6 Ops List=0AOggetto: [v6=
ops] draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion=0AAt IETF 101, Giuseppe=
 Fioccola presented draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-=
mark, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.i=
etf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-ipv6-performance-measuremen=
t-with-alternate-marking-method-00.=0AThere was also discussion in 6ma=
n regarding the encoding mechanism. I'll refer you to the 6man minutes for=
 that discussion. But to that end, Roberta Maglione, Giuseppe Fioccola, Bo=
b Hinden, Ole Troan, and I met for breakfast to discuss this draft. The is=
sue has to do with the placement of bits and the service provided. The gen=
eral consensus, as I understand it, was to recommend that the authors cons=
ider the Conex extension in=0Ahttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7837=0A7837 IPv6 D=
estination Option for Congestion Exposure (ConEx). S.=0A     Krishnan, M. =
Kuehlewind, B. Briscoe, C. Ralli. May 2016. (Format:=0A     TXT=3D29708 by=
tes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC7837)=0Aand consider how to =
use unused fields in it in the Hop-by-hop Header. Ideally, that means incl=
uding the HBH Header and the indicated option as transmitted by the source=
 system, so that other systems en route can inspect and/or update it.=0AGi=
useppe will use the existing draft as a vehicle for the present, but it ma=
y or may not be discussed in v6ops. Bob would like Giuseppe to remove the =
discussion of the several possible placements and only discuss this option=
. It would also be wise for Giuseppe to correspond with the authors of tha=
t RFC, in accordance with the definition of "experimental" in RFC 2026, to=
 ensure that he and they don't somehow trip over each other.=0AI would lik=
e to invite v6ops discussion. This especially includes the question of whe=
ther it makes useful recommendations for your operational environment.=0AR=
elated documents include:=0Ahttps://tools.ietf.org/=
html/draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark=0A  "Multipoint Alternate=
 Marking method for passive and hybrid performance=0A  monitoring", Giusep=
pe Fioccola, Mauro Cociglio, Amedeo Sapio, Riccardo=0A  Sisto, 2018-03-01=
=0Ahttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-spr=
ing-flow-label-alt-mark=0A  "Using the IPv6 Flow Label for Performance=
 Measurement with Alternate=0A  Marking Method in Segment Routing", Giusep=
pe Fioccola, Gunter Van de Velde,=0A  Mauro Cociglio, Praveen Muley, 2017-=
10-26,=0Ahttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-v6op=
s-ipv6-alt-mark=0A  "IPv6 Performance Measurement with Alternate Marki=
ng Method", Giuseppe=0A  Fioccola, Gunter Van de Velde, Mauro Cociglio, Pr=
aveen Muley, 2018-02-26,=0Ahttps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fmm=
-nvo3-pm-alt-mark=0A  "Performance Measurement (PM) with Alternate Mar=
king in Network=0A  Virtualization Overlays (NVO3)", Giuseppe Fioccola, Gr=
egory Mirsky, Tal=0A  Mizrahi, 2018-03-02=0Ahttps://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8321=
=0A8321 Alternate-Marking Method for Passive and Hybrid Performance=0A    =
 Monitoring. G. Fioccola, Ed., A. Capello, M. Cociglio, L.=0A     Castalde=
lli, M. Chen, L. Zheng, G. Mirsky, T. Mizrahi. January 2018.=0A     (Forma=
t: TXT=3D84513 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI:=0A     10.17487/RFC8321=
)=0AQuesto messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente all=
e persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivant=
e dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qual=
ora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregat=
i di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua di=
struzione, Grazie. =0AThis e-mail and any attachments is confidential and =
may contain privileged information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dis=
semination, copying, printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If y=
ou are not the intended recipient, please delete this message and any atta=
chments and advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks. =0ARispetta l'ambi=
ente. Non stampare questa mail se non =A8=A8 necessario.=0A
=
Date =
Thread
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=0A
xiechf.bri@chinatelecom.cn
= =0A ------=_001_NextPart806400860373_=------ From nobody Wed Apr 11 01:56:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2D6D712711B for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 01:56:49 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6cywDn81YOlY for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 01:56:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx02.telecomitalia.it (mx02.telecomitalia.it [217.169.121.22]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 87B05127342 for ; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 01:56:39 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: d9a97916-d73ff70000003a07-13-5acdcdc5f0ff Received: from TELMBXA02RM001.telecomitalia.local ( [10.14.252.26]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx02.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id 0C.E3.14855.5CDCDCA5; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 10:56:37 +0200 (CEST) From: Fioccola Giuseppe To: Chongfeng Xie , v6ops Thread-Topic: [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion Thread-Index: AQHT0WQBPQfk6qlrkkuRXRt1d1NRJqP7QxVg Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 08:56:37 +0000 Message-ID: <7c6dda4c03c448e98104c7c0d110eb69@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> References: <2018041115082920841131@chinatelecom.cn> In-Reply-To: <2018041115082920841131@chinatelecom.cn> Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.14.252.254] x-ti-disclaimer: Disclaimer1 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_7c6dda4c03c448e98104c7c0d110eb69TELMBXB02RM001telecomit_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprEIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCxfdHSvfo2bNRBhsm6lmcPraX2WLG/bOs Dkwe924FeyxZ8pMpgCmKyyYlNSezLLVI3y6BK+PtKeGCCbOYKxY9OcTcwPj4A1MXIyeHhICJ xIRJs1m6GLk4hASmMkm82PgRLMEmYCNx8NUJti5GDg4RATeJm+/8QExhAVeJx885QSpEBNwl jh/bzA5hG0nMPfubEcRmEVCV2PW8CczmFQiUOPtrASuILQS06tP7n2BxTgFTicsnb4DZjAKy EhN2LwKzmQXEJV5MP8EOcZqAxJI955khbFGJl4//sULYBhJbl+5jgbAVJS4sPwply0gsPDKZ FWJOvsTVjlUsEDcISpyc+YRlAqPILCQrZiEpm4WkDCKuJ3Fj6hQ2CFtbYtnC18wQtq7EjH+H WJDFFzCyr2IUza0wMNIrSc1JTc7PzSxJzMlM1Mss2cQIjKmbKyvFdjC2rnU+xCjAwajEw8tz 5GyUEGtiWXFl7iFGCQ5mJRHeA6VAId6UxMqq1KL8+KLSnNTiQ4zSHCxK4rxP6s9ECQmkJ5ak ZqemFqQWwWSZODilGhjL1YWE1us+Wxg6+2D1NNWufCvnYKfeO6v2vqiZu8BJo+TmSYZAPf93 MxOFny/4vLPPUTqRrZvfRz+Dh11Jzb9DX+xC3F7Dxg3zT76d6y0idnaTpdv8SRr6RXKWcS7L k/KnvPnd6btemvFJLLd7x1XtjIXPPDa2/uXXd2u+9rK2+STPzbus+kosxRmJhlrMRcWJANlZ 2U2lAgAA Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] R: R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 08:56:49 -0000 --_000_7c6dda4c03c448e98104c7c0d110eb69TELMBXB02RM001telecomit_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Chongfeng, Thank you for your comment. It is important to have an opinion from other n= etwork operators. Your comment makes sense, in fact we are discarding the DA as choice for th= e marking field and, meanwhile, we are considering to use extension header = (RFC7837) to encode alternate marking method detailed in RFC8321. The new r= evision will be published in the coming weeks. Best Regards, Giuseppe Da: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di Chongfeng Xie Inviato: mercoled=EC 11 aprile 2018 09:08 A: v6ops Oggetto: [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion Hi, Giuseppe, I have read draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark-00, and I feel that it is = essential to find an agreed way for IPv6 performance measurement with Alter= nate Marking Method, so I give support to this work. Frankly speaking, it i= s the first time for me to touch RFC8321, so I need more time to understand= the keypoints of this work. However, I think it is unsuitable to put the = two bits marking field in DA, for many operators, the IPv6 address space h= as been planned and major key bits have been elaborately defined, so it is = difficult to insert new field in the IPv6 address. Thank you Chongfeng Xie ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion Fioccola Giuseppe > Tue, 10 April 2018 08:45 UTCShow header Return-Path: > X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix= ) with ESMTP id 263AD127369; Tue, 10 Apr 2018 01:45:01 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=3D-2.6 tagged_above=3D-999 required=3D5 tests=3D[B= AYES_00=3D-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=3D-0.7, SPF_PASS=3D-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED= =3D0.001] autolearn=3Dham autolearn_force=3Dno Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [= 127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RUTnRgZAw6hZ; Tue, 10 A= pr 2018 01:44:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx01.telecomitalia.it (mx01.telecomitalia.it [217.169..121.1= 0]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) = (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS i= d 590A51200A0; Tue, 10 Apr 2018 01:44:57 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: d9a9790a-74dff70000001185-76-5acc7987b8fd Received: from TELMBXA02RM001.telecomitalia.local ( [10.14.252.26]) (using = TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not pre= sent a certificate) by mx01.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id 0F.C6.04485..7= 897CCA5; Tue, 10 Apr 2018 10:44:55 +0200 (CEST) From: Fioccola Giuseppe > To: Fred Baker >,= V6 Ops List > CC: "draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark@ietf..org" > Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion Thread-Index: AQHTzvaYClDUCxLuFkeWlE5vi/AbcKP5p2Vw Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 08:44:54 +0000 Message-ID: <397377f9ac4141a184af766d39337934@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.= local> References: > In-Reply-To: > Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.14.252..245] x-ti-disclaimer: Disclaimer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"ISO-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFtrMKsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCxfdHSre98kyUw= d0fghbHpjUyW9z+2sBq cfrYXmYHZo+ds+6yeyxZ8pMpgCmqgdEmMS8vvySxJFUhJbU42VbJJbM= 4OScxMze1SCEkNSc1 OT9XSSEzxVbJWEmhICcxOTU3Na/EVimxoCA1L0XJjksBA9gAlWXmKaTmJ= eenZOal2yp5Bvvr WliYWuoaKtkFlqYWl+Qr5KYWFyemp2fmK6QmrBfMaDi6hL3giWzFv/cCDYw= PJboYOTkkBEwk Fr7pZ+9i5OIQEpjKJNH48w0jSIJNwEbi4KsTbF2MHBwiAu4Sbb/rQcLMAokSP= VcPgZUICzhK vNg2kR3EFhFwltj1/y8jRLmRxLR2PZAwi4CqxJuPy8DKeQUCJZ5deAdWLgQ0fUr= 3EbA4p4Ct xMZ1q1lBbEYBWYkJuxcxQqwSl3gx/QQ7xJkCEkv2nGeGsEUlXj7+xwphG0hsXbqPB= cJWlLi9 bylUXEZi4ZHJrBBzdCQW7P7EBmFrSyxb+JoZ4h5BiZMzn7BMYBSbhWTdLCQts5C0zEL= SsoCR ZRWjaG6FgaFeCSTyMksSczIT9TJLNjECU8bNlZVcOxhfr3I+xCjAwajEw7un8EyUEGtiW= XFl 7iFGCQ5mJRHeg4tPRwnxpiRWVqUW5ccXleakFh9i9AGG2ERmKdHkfGA6yyuJNzSxsDQ0trA= w MrQwM8UhrCTO+68caLxAOjB1ZaemFqQWwYxj4uCUamCUUMuyq9vksXHL7Nxr9z3bNM//3Xgs = fZHl/D1h/+Qb+Z4Il3pm9Pn0sbu80H5TI6XlbFAfNn1jHvvXtMXbuNbUvchJ3pf6dcmHjwe/ fw= sQ3b275HjnZivuLu8Zv3znq+ouyV2s/FyR4YnGwZ6vJr1TNr3RFypvtIs9cD3zc7/dxXVv Fm5Y= W7tKiaU4I9FQi7moOBEAY/TwR0YDAAA=3D Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 10 Apr 2018 08:45:01 -0000 Hi Fred, Thank you for the detailed recap. I would only confirm that we will work on a new revision of draft-fioccola-= v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark and propose the use of 2 bits from the reserved field i= n the RFC7837 ConEx extension to encode the marking method. In addition it = will be used as HBH Header. Feedbacks from the WG are welcome. Best Regards, Giuseppe -----Messaggio originale----- Da: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di Fred Baker Inviato: domenica 8 aprile 2018 07:00 A: V6 Ops List Oggetto: [v6ops] draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion At IETF 101, Giuseppe Fioccola presented draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark= . The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt= -mark, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting= /101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-ipv6-performance-measurement-with-alternate= -marking-method-00. There was also discussion in 6man regarding the encoding mechanism. I'll re= fer you to the 6man minutes for that discussion. But to that end, Roberta M= aglione, Giuseppe Fioccola, Bob Hinden, Ole Troan, and I met for breakfast = to discuss this draft. The issue has to do with the placement of bits and t= he service provided. The general consensus, as I understand it, was to reco= mmend that the authors consider the Conex extension in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7837 7837 IPv6 Destination Option for Congestion Exposure (ConEx). S. Krishnan, M. Kuehlewind, B. Briscoe, C. Ralli. May 2016. (Format: TXT=3D29708 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC7837) and consider how to use unused fields in it in the Hop-by-hop Header. Ideal= ly, that means including the HBH Header and the indicated option as transmi= tted by the source system, so that other systems en route can inspect and/o= r update it. Giuseppe will use the existing draft as a vehicle for the present, but it m= ay or may not be discussed in v6ops. Bob would like Giuseppe to remove the = discussion of the several possible placements and only discuss this option.= . It would also be wise for Giuseppe to correspond with the authors of that= RFC, in accordance with the definition of "experimental" in RFC 2026, to e= nsure that he and they don't somehow trip over each other. I would like to invite v6ops discussion. This especially includes the quest= ion of whether it makes useful recommendations for your operational environ= ment. Related documents include: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark "Multipoint Alternate Marking method for passive and hybrid performance monitoring", Giuseppe Fioccola, Mauro Cociglio, Amedeo Sapio, Riccardo Sisto, 2018-03-01 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark "Using the IPv6 Flow Label for Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method in Segment Routing", Giuseppe Fioccola, Gunter Van de Veld= e, Mauro Cociglio, Praveen Muley, 2017-10-26, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark "IPv6 Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method", Giuseppe Fioccola, Gunter Van de Velde, Mauro Cociglio, Praveen Muley, 2018-02-26, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fmm-nvo3-pm-alt-mark "Performance Measurement (PM) with Alternate Marking in Network Virtualization Overlays (NVO3)", Giuseppe Fioccola, Gregory Mirsky, Tal Mizrahi, 2018-03-02 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8321 8321 Alternate-Marking Method for Passive and Hybrid Performance Monitoring. G. Fioccola, Ed., A. Capello, M. Cociglio, L. Castaldelli, M. Chen, L. Zheng, G. Mirsky, T. Mizrahi. January 2018. (Format: TXT=3D84513 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC8321) Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per= sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall= a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb= iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di dar= ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie. This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged = information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, pri= nting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended r= ecipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sen= der by return e-mail, Thanks. Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. * [v6ops] draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark disc... Fred Baker * [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark d... Fioccola Giuseppe * Re: [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-ma... Ackermann, Michael * Hide Navigation Bar Date Thread Toggle navigation * * Date * * * Thread * v1.11.2 | Report a Bug | By = Email ________________________________ xiechf.bri@chinatelecom.cn --_000_7c6dda4c03c448e98104c7c0d110eb69TELMBXB02RM001telecomit_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Chongfe= ng,

Thank you = for your comment. It is important to have an opinion from other network ope= rators.

Your comme= nt makes sense, in fact we are discarding the DA as choice for the marking = field and, meanwhile, we are considering to use extension header (RFC7837) to encode alternate marking method detailed in RFC8321. T= he new revision will be published in the coming weeks.

Best Regards,<= /span>

Giuseppe

 <= /p>

Da: v6ops = [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di Chongfeng Xie
Inviato: mercoled=EC 11 aprile 2018 09:08
A: v6ops
Oggetto: [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion

 

 

 

Hi, Giuseppe, 

 

I have read = ;draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark-00,   and I feel th= at it is essential to find an agreed&nbs= p;way for IPv6 performance measurement with A= lternate Marking Method, so I give support&nb= sp;to this work. Frankly speaking, it is = ;the first time for me to touch RFC8321,=  so I need more time to understand = the keypoints of this work. However,  I&= nbsp;think it is unsuitable to put the &= nbsp;two bits marking field in DA, for m= any operators, the IPv6 address space has&nbs= p;been planned and major key bits have b= een elaborately defined, so it is difficult&n= bsp;to insert new field in the IPv6 address. 



Thank you



Chongfeng  Xie=

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~= ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discus= sion

Fioccola Giuseppe <giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it> Tue, 10 April 2018 08:45 UTCShow header

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From: Fioccola Giuseppe <giuseppe.fioccola@telecomitalia.it>
To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ie= tf@gmail.com>, V6 Ops List <v6o= ps@ietf.org>
CC: "d= raft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark@ietf..org" <draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt= -mark@ietf.org>
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Subject: [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion
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Hi Fred,
Thank you for the detailed recap.
I would only confirm that we will work on =
a new revision of draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark and propose the use of=
 2 bits from the reserved field in the RFC7837 ConEx extension to encode th=
e marking method. In addition it will be used as HBH Header.
Feedbacks from the WG are welcome.
Best Regards,
Giuseppe
-----Messaggio originale-----
Da: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di Fred Baker<=
/o:p>
Inviato: domenica 8 aprile 2018 07:00=

A: V6 Ops List
Oggetto: [v6ops] draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6=
-alt-mark discussion
At IETF 101, Giuseppe Fioccola presented d=
raft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/h=
tml/draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark, and his presentation deck is at=
 https:/=
/datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-ipv6-performan=
ce-measurement-with-alternate-marking-method-00.

There was also discussion in 6man regardin=
g the encoding mechanism. I'll refer you to the 6man minutes for that discu=
ssion. But to that end, Roberta Maglione, Giuseppe Fioccola, Bob Hinden, Ol=
e Troan, and I met for breakfast to discuss this draft. The issue has to do=
 with the placement of bits and the service provided. The general consensus=
, as I understand it, was to recommend that the authors consider the Conex =
extension in


https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7837


7837 IPv6 Destination Option for Congestio=
n Exposure (ConEx). S.


     Krishnan, M. Kueh=
lewind, B. Briscoe, C. Ralli. May 2016. (Format:


     TXT=3D29708 bytes=
) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC7837)


and consider how to use unused fields in i=
t in the Hop-by-hop Header. Ideally, that means including the HBH Header an=
d the indicated option as transmitted by the source system, so that other s=
ystems en route can inspect and/or update it.


Giuseppe will use the existing draft as a =
vehicle for the present, but it may or may not be discussed in v6ops. Bob w=
ould like Giuseppe to remove the discussion of the several possible placeme=
nts and only discuss this option.. It would also be wise for Giuseppe to co=
rrespond with the authors of that RFC, in accordance with the definition of=
 "experimental" in RFC 2026, to ensure that he and they don't som=
ehow trip over each other.


I would like to invite v6ops discussion. T=
his especially includes the question of whether it makes useful recommendat=
ions for your operational environment.


Related documents include:


https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fio=
ccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark


  "Multipoint Alternate Marking =
method for passive and hybrid performance


  monitoring", Giuseppe Fioccola=
, Mauro Cociglio, Amedeo Sapio, Riccardo


  Sisto, 2018-03-01=



https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-f=
ioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark


  "Using the IPv6 Flow Label for=
 Performance Measurement with Alternate


  Marking Method in Segment Routing&q=
uot;, Giuseppe Fioccola, Gunter Van de Velde,


  Mauro Cociglio, Praveen Muley, 2017=
-10-26,


https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola=
-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark


  "IPv6 Performance Measurement =
with Alternate Marking Method", Giuseppe


  Fioccola, Gunter Van de Velde, Maur=
o Cociglio, Praveen Muley, 2018-02-26,


https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fmm-nvo3-pm-alt-=
mark


  "Performance Measurement (PM) =
with Alternate Marking in Network


  Virtualization Overlays (NVO3)"=
;, Giuseppe Fioccola, Gregory Mirsky, Tal


  Mizrahi, 2018-03-02


https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8321


8321 Alternate-Marking Method for Passive =
and Hybrid Performance


     Monitoring. G. Fi=
occola, Ed., A. Capello, M. Cociglio, L.


     Castaldelli, M. C=
hen, L. Zheng, G. Mirsky, T. Mizrahi. January 2018.


     (Format: TXT=3D84=
513 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI:


     10.17487/RFC8321)=



Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono in=
dirizzati esclusivamente alle persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qual=
siasi altra azione derivante dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono r=
igorosamente vietate. Qualora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore =
siete cortesemente pregati di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e d=
i provvedere alla sua distruzione, Grazie. 


This e-mail and any attachments is confide=
ntial and may contain privileged information intended for the addressee(s) =
only. Dissemination, copying, printing or use by anybody else is unauthoris=
ed. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this message and a=
ny attachments and advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks. <=
/span>


Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa m=
ail se non =E8 necessario.

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--_000_7c6dda4c03c448e98104c7c0d110eb69TELMBXB02RM001telecomit_-- From nobody Wed Apr 11 02:01:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89AC3126FB3; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 02:01:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2y0WpsZnYx2H; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 02:01:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx04.telecomitalia.it (mx04.telecomitalia.it [217.169.121.24]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04BA012711D; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 02:01:14 -0700 (PDT) X-AuditID: d9a97918-2ebff70000004340-ae-5acdced819f5 Received: from TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local ( [10.14.252.27]) (using TLS with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mx04.telecomitalia.it () with SMTP id E5.9F.17216.8DECDCA5; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 11:01:12 +0200 (CEST) From: Fioccola Giuseppe To: "Ackermann, Michael" , Fred Baker , V6 Ops List CC: "draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark@ietf.org" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion Thread-Index: AQHT0NcEUPRH5tdYuUmoLO+9HeSn7aP7RHDQ Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 09:01:12 +0000 Message-ID: <0d837bcf0b514728adeb7cc2d05fb265@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> References: <397377f9ac4141a184af766d39337934@TELMBXB02RM001.telecomitalia.local> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: it-IT, en-US Content-Language: it-IT X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [10.14.252.254] x-ti-disclaimer: Disclaimer1 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Brightmail-Tracker: H4sIAAAAAAAAA+NgFprGIsWRmVeSWpSXmKPExsXCxfdHWvfGubNRBu/WWVkcm9bIbHH7awOr xbLXj1gtTh/by+zA4vHq8xU2j52z7rJ7LFnykymAOYrLJiU1J7MstUjfLoEro3X2NqaCi8YV d39OZ25gfK/VxcjJISFgIvF/x2+2LkYuDiGBqUwSNyc3M4Ek2ARsJA6+OgGU4OAQESiTeNRc CxJmFkiU6Ll6iBHEFhZwlTj9+xY7iC0i4C5xZ/MNFgjbSGLyu+NsIDaLgKrEyzstYGN4BQIl fi11gFh1nVHiUdd/VpAaToFYiY0/34DNZBSQlZiwexEjxC5xiRfTT7BD3CkgsWTPeWYIW1Ti 5eN/rBC2gcTWpftYIGxFiQvLj0LZMhILj0xmhZijJ3Fj6hQ2CFtbYtnC12BzeAUEJU7OfMIy gVFsFpJ1s5C0zELSMgtJywJGllWMorkVBiZ6Jak5qcn5uZkliTmZiXqZJZsYgbF1c2WlxA7G 7rXOhxgFOBiVeHjXHzkbJcSaWFZcmXuIUYKDWUmE90ApUIg3JbGyKrUoP76oNCe1+BCjNAeL kjjvk/ozUUIC6YklqdmpqQWpRTBZJg5OqQZGJaNtTs+VFyRvbpCzkSxlW9TTplKw7++S89L3 J7BOkd6fInXiwYnmCe6hrS/ypeP4P75RV+E8tVtPLvdm+t8n71o2+Xs03eRozHl1fUpohJWG 2Wx949KkQ6IfNv75uK1K4E2PUrR49eQ8g+NrOW6/Ul8huDNWOX+CiWFN4vs3wm8mcb9d5nxJ iaU4I9FQi7moOBEATgY2PakCAAA= Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] R: R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 09:01:28 -0000 Hi Michael, Thank you for your good opinion! We are considering RFC7837 but we are open= to other use cases too. I also hope to work with you on this. Best Regards, Giuseppe -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Ackermann, Michael [mailto:MAckermann@bcbsm.com]=20 Inviato: marted=EC 10 aprile 2018 16:20 A: Fioccola Giuseppe; Fred Baker; V6 Ops List Cc: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark@ietf.org Oggetto: RE: [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion Feedback as an enterprise operator that is hopefully a future user. =20 I think this capability would be very beneficial and be a good compliment t= o PDM / RFC8250. In particular for heath determination of intermediate = node links. =20 Nalini and I hope to work with Giuseppe and his team towards this end . Thanks Mike -----Original Message----- From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fioccola Giuseppe Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 4:45 AM To: Fred Baker ; V6 Ops List Cc: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark@ietf.org Subject: [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion Hi Fred, Thank you for the detailed recap. I would only confirm that we will work on a new revision of draft-fioccola-= v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark and propose the use of 2 bits from the reserved field i= n the RFC7837 ConEx extension to encode the marking method. In addition it = will be used as HBH Header. Feedbacks from the WG are welcome. Best Regards, Giuseppe -----Messaggio originale----- Da: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] Per conto di Fred Baker Inviato: domenica 8 aprile 2018 07:00 A: V6 Ops List Oggetto: [v6ops] draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion At IETF 101, Giuseppe Fioccola presented draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark= .. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-al= t-mark, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meetin= g/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-ipv6-performance-measurement-with-alternat= e-marking-method-00. There was also discussion in 6man regarding the encoding mechanism. I'll re= fer you to the 6man minutes for that discussion. But to that end, Roberta M= aglione, Giuseppe Fioccola, Bob Hinden, Ole Troan, and I met for breakfast = to discuss this draft. The issue has to do with the placement of bits and t= he service provided. The general consensus, as I understand it, was to reco= mmend that the authors consider the Conex extension in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7837 7837 IPv6 Destination Option for Congestion Exposure (ConEx). S. Krishnan, M. Kuehlewind, B. Briscoe, C. Ralli. May 2016. (Format: TXT=3D29708 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC7837) and consider how to use unused fields in it in the Hop-by-hop Header. Ideal= ly, that means including the HBH Header and the indicated option as transmi= tted by the source system, so that other systems en route can inspect and/o= r update it. Giuseppe will use the existing draft as a vehicle for the present, but it m= ay or may not be discussed in v6ops. Bob would like Giuseppe to remove the = discussion of the several possible placements and only discuss this option.= It would also be wise for Giuseppe to correspond with the authors of that = RFC, in accordance with the definition of "experimental" in RFC 2026, to en= sure that he and they don't somehow trip over each other. I would like to invite v6ops discussion. This especially includes the quest= ion of whether it makes useful recommendations for your operational environ= ment. Related documents include: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark "Multipoint Alternate Marking method for passive and hybrid performance monitoring", Giuseppe Fioccola, Mauro Cociglio, Amedeo Sapio, Riccardo Sisto, 2018-03-01 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark "Using the IPv6 Flow Label for Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method in Segment Routing", Giuseppe Fioccola, Gunter Van de Veld= e, Mauro Cociglio, Praveen Muley, 2017-10-26, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark "IPv6 Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method", Giuseppe Fioccola, Gunter Van de Velde, Mauro Cociglio, Praveen Muley, 2018-02-26, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fmm-nvo3-pm-alt-mark "Performance Measurement (PM) with Alternate Marking in Network Virtualization Overlays (NVO3)", Giuseppe Fioccola, Gregory Mirsky, Tal Mizrahi, 2018-03-02 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8321 8321 Alternate-Marking Method for Passive and Hybrid Performance Monitoring. G. Fioccola, Ed., A. Capello, M. Cociglio, L. Castaldelli, M. Chen, L. Zheng, G. Mirsky, T. Mizrahi. January 2018. (Format: TXT=3D84513 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC8321) Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle per= sone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante dall= a conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. Qualora abb= iate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente pregati di dar= ne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla sua distruzione= , Grazie.=20 This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged = information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, pri= nting or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended r= ecipient, please delete this message and any attachments and advise the sen= der by return e-mail, Thanks.=20 Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops The information contained in this communication is highly confidential and = is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom this communicat= ion is directed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby noti= fied that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of this informat= ion is prohibited. Please notify the sender, by electronic mail or telephon= e, of any unintended receipt and delete the original message without making= any copies. =20 Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan and Blue Care Network of Michigan are n= onprofit corporations and independent licensees of the Blue Cross and Blue = Shield Association. 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DIR:OUT; SFP:1102; SCL:1; SRVR:BN7PR14MB2322; H:BN7PR14MB2369.namprd14.prod.outlook.com; FPR:; SPF:None; LANG:en; PTR:InfoNoRecords; MX:1; A:1; received-spf: None (protection.outlook.com: bcbsm.com does not designate permitted sender hosts) x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: sZCaBfVEno5mxbbEpMOcuhZW5A5kM/H13bvtwWL5eFDQWyl16Uev+9u/HIBQuLFHVKCcYLfKbNJ+Ri28cnVaD/7YUMEUK99ZixHWtBWE33BIqQcGQyWcAQRDKddRCE7rNTQPGzzBuavDysYxTNvLmPBZ09qtVnBXpS9Rp6GH11ozXzCGdXEFeg2BL/k0BFRvHkAGiedK85xcSXooPnt1uFBAhhPQU/NErFeKbmCOfVCIhtonHCWoPmAfoeQG5NUiEs9WlQXZ8raYmS4aCGX5BMH3a+Gv8rmtBEkR+Ugkrai0psbqkvptl8gv7Z26WzPAWuATQDDb8KtF02tvdKpIO+XbRcR4e6IpBNwJYKWMsc55+zMB3giJTQsQOgU2zQqimfrDEHjKRj8e1+HrjiLnoVco3LpdBAGRM1x+TrpAquA= spamdiagnosticoutput: 1:99 spamdiagnosticmetadata: NSPM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: b98862af-75c3-4ed4-394b-08d59fb77c0c X-OriginatorOrg: bcbsm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: b98862af-75c3-4ed4-394b-08d59fb77c0c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 11 Apr 2018 14:21:14.9613 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 6f56d3fa-5682-4261-b169-bc0d615da17c X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7PR14MB2322 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-VPM-HOST: vmvpm02.z120.zixworks.com X-VPM-GROUP-ID: fce17372-9ced-440e-9c96-a08178d06b6f X-VPM-MSG-ID: 249bc19d-614c-42be-886a-fbc2cea5e617 X-VPM-ENC-REGIME: Plaintext X-VPM-IS-HYBRID: 0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 11 Apr 2018 14:21:28 -0000 Thanks Guiseppe. And just to be clear, I was not suggesting that marking needs to be = implemented in DOH, just because PDM did it that way. PDM is not = concerned with middle boxes changing fields/data, as it is a host/end = point implementation.=20 Marking will have other considerations, so a different implementation may = be appropriate. I do not pretend to know at this point, but will gladly = work with you towards that end, so that we may someday have both tools to = help manage our networks. =20 Thanks again=21 Mike -----Original Message----- From: Fioccola Giuseppe =5Bmailto:giuseppe.fioccola=40telecomitalia.it=5D=20 Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 5:01 AM To: Ackermann, Michael ; Fred Baker = ; V6 Ops List Cc: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark=40ietf.org Subject: R: =5Bv6ops=5D R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion Hi Michael, Thank you for your good opinion=21 We are considering RFC7837 but we are = open to other use cases too. I also hope to work with you on this. Best Regards, Giuseppe -----Messaggio originale----- Da: Ackermann, Michael =5Bmailto:MAckermann=40bcbsm.com=5D=20 Inviato: marted=EC 10 aprile 2018 16:20 A: Fioccola Giuseppe; Fred Baker; V6 Ops List Cc: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark=40ietf.org Oggetto: RE: =5Bv6ops=5D R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion Feedback as an enterprise operator that is hopefully a future user. =20 I think this capability would be very beneficial and be a good compliment = to PDM / RFC8250. In particular for heath determination of = intermediate node links. =20 Nalini and I hope to work with Giuseppe and his team towards this end . Thanks Mike -----Original Message----- From: v6ops =5Bmailto:v6ops-bounces=40ietf.org=5D On Behalf Of Fioccola = Giuseppe Sent: Tuesday, April 10, 2018 4:45 AM To: Fred Baker ; V6 Ops List Cc: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark=40ietf.org Subject: =5Bv6ops=5D R: draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion Hi Fred, Thank you for the detailed recap. I would only confirm that we will work on a new revision of = draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark and propose the use of 2 bits from the = reserved field in the RFC7837 ConEx extension to encode the marking = method. In addition it will be used as HBH Header. Feedbacks from the WG are welcome. Best Regards, Giuseppe -----Messaggio originale----- Da: v6ops =5Bmailto:v6ops-bounces=40ietf.org=5D Per conto di Fred Baker Inviato: domenica 8 aprile 2018 07:00 A: V6 Ops List Oggetto: =5Bv6ops=5D draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark discussion At IETF 101, Giuseppe Fioccola presented = draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark.. The draft is at = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark, and his = presentation deck is at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-ipv6-pe= rformance-measurement-with-alternate-marking-method-00. There was also discussion in 6man regarding the encoding mechanism. I'll = refer you to the 6man minutes for that discussion. But to that end, = Roberta Maglione, Giuseppe Fioccola, Bob Hinden, Ole Troan, and I met for = breakfast to discuss this draft. The issue has to do with the placement of = bits and the service provided. The general consensus, as I understand it, = was to recommend that the authors consider the Conex extension in https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7837 7837 IPv6 Destination Option for Congestion Exposure (ConEx). S. Krishnan, M. Kuehlewind, B. Briscoe, C. Ralli. May 2016. (Format: TXT=3D29708 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC7837) and consider how to use unused fields in it in the Hop-by-hop Header. = Ideally, that means including the HBH Header and the indicated option as = transmitted by the source system, so that other systems en route can = inspect and/or update it. Giuseppe will use the existing draft as a vehicle for the present, but it = may or may not be discussed in v6ops. Bob would like Giuseppe to remove = the discussion of the several possible placements and only discuss this = option. It would also be wise for Giuseppe to correspond with the authors = of that RFC, in accordance with the definition of =22experimental=22 in = RFC 2026, to ensure that he and they don't somehow trip over each other. I would like to invite v6ops discussion. This especially includes the = question of whether it makes useful recommendations for your operational = environment. Related documents include: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-ippm-multipoint-alt-mark =22Multipoint Alternate Marking method for passive and hybrid performance monitoring=22, Giuseppe Fioccola, Mauro Cociglio, Amedeo Sapio, Riccardo Sisto, 2018-03-01 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-spring-flow-label-alt-mark =22Using the IPv6 Flow Label for Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method in Segment Routing=22, Giuseppe Fioccola, Gunter Van de = Velde, Mauro Cociglio, Praveen Muley, 2017-10-26, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fioccola-v6ops-ipv6-alt-mark =22IPv6 Performance Measurement with Alternate Marking Method=22, Giuseppe Fioccola, Gunter Van de Velde, Mauro Cociglio, Praveen Muley, 2018-02-26, https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-fmm-nvo3-pm-alt-mark =22Performance Measurement (PM) with Alternate Marking in Network Virtualization Overlays (NVO3)=22, Giuseppe Fioccola, Gregory Mirsky, Tal Mizrahi, 2018-03-02 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8321 8321 Alternate-Marking Method for Passive and Hybrid Performance Monitoring. G. Fioccola, Ed., A. Capello, M. Cociglio, L. Castaldelli, M. Chen, L. Zheng, G. Mirsky, T. Mizrahi. January 2018. (Format: TXT=3D84513 bytes) (Status: EXPERIMENTAL) (DOI: 10.17487/RFC8321) Questo messaggio e i suoi allegati sono indirizzati esclusivamente alle = persone indicate. La diffusione, copia o qualsiasi altra azione derivante = dalla conoscenza di queste informazioni sono rigorosamente vietate. = Qualora abbiate ricevuto questo documento per errore siete cortesemente = pregati di darne immediata comunicazione al mittente e di provvedere alla = sua distruzione, Grazie.=20 This e-mail and any attachments is confidential and may contain privileged = information intended for the addressee(s) only. Dissemination, copying, = printing or use by anybody else is unauthorised. If you are not the = intended recipient, please delete this message and any attachments and = advise the sender by return e-mail, Thanks.=20 Rispetta l'ambiente. Non stampare questa mail se non =E8 necessario. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops=40ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops The information contained in this communication is highly confidential and = is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom this = communication is directed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are = hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of = this information is prohibited. Please notify the sender, by electronic = mail or telephone, of any unintended receipt and delete the original = message without making any copies. =20 Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan and Blue Care Network of Michigan are = nonprofit corporations and independent licensees of the Blue Cross and = Blue Shield Association. The information contained in this communication is highly confidential and = is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom this = communication is directed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are = hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of = this information is prohibited. Please notify the sender, by electronic = mail or telephone, of any unintended receipt and delete the original = message without making any copies. =20 Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan and Blue Care Network of Michigan are = nonprofit corporations and independent licensees of the Blue Cross and = Blue Shield Association. From nobody Wed Apr 11 22:39:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 42CCE124D68; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 22:38:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.75 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.75 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AKnr3nqNbkOy; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 22:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x231.google.com (mail-lf0-x231.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::231]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8CE4F127337; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 22:38:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x231.google.com with SMTP id j68-v6so5838600lfg.13; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 22:38:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=iIng1tn1R/cB5UVaEtfXu2z597o0TrezAOrFeEs4aiQ=; b=DSOyThEG2GdyLyzohSN7XWV3gfogNBQYnzbqg5yDD4h0NSjiFarkjU4GE647D8DMrs SvCY5W+OQjvprDEmZt60zjfnf1P3WjcqYpi9L3RJteZGKGnUhd8nKiXA+aCikOr3OzrT GO9gWZSFOriuwNdLOsopLFHEAyOe+h6yHzUsB4oI5DeOEaF9kDzZ+RHiJ8NGYbswYgKR 8beTnLn8C1Pccyjx70nUgCrILshu45IC8Ip/kMZ5qrKRB2B90Fa11gcMsKJGSeJmeZK5 54z/QXDcyATkcRPyzp8EzrAF3jwKUD3BGwvWTpxsYTyIGNw7bz5it2lLlVBMWiVozmAv Nw2Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=iIng1tn1R/cB5UVaEtfXu2z597o0TrezAOrFeEs4aiQ=; b=Fu8Qz8Pn1L+RZvL0BwToN3AX1R5nbfK2ehBRPnhEqdo/p6IOfHcqdyhKylMbCH1Y7H kyuw6g25AcRo1M4D8vE+ZZVh3qi7hmRWS4kgaPuLCDuhzNQFydRZIam9F0DMXvh10gHc bPctfjkDby4NRxtJ9vpuFGGHnqc02tbbIQJbLF7xhrzU5bVXOPtt0FwrI1NQYDww+S7c H189aaCbLPKH9Lo9jSA7JrVNncJehUKuhy+Z+432LuF+Kyvg55bLjh7S0XiZOmF0X24U B5S6fuHL90HJ+yAlSHD1NQK5a8RG7n4Mo/4uUAzqhM402/YDrzN4uq671saUPLpa+chE 6B/g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAdMlhwRgx8DKHmqH3u1yM6u38WfguFsBynHq2hp+XR7qXjUI2L 2PRBtVGVWQBfXmHo55keF2TmhDO/92VsF+s3yxNHE0Ga X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49g0ma10phsuaXKqsjDYwTZqNqAGZCwSEZob2S7F5MJ0DAMGhiVcect5S+kX4oAyr5DsHQ15RAsyFQBVEN24XI= X-Received: by 2002:a19:e991:: with SMTP id j17-v6mr215747lfk.119.1523511534651; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 22:38:54 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:de0a:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 11 Apr 2018 22:38:33 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <794587A2-46DF-4F2F-86B5-56083D0864A5@gmail.com> <9a3234af-cc1a-1054-b6d1-3baa7ad7ca81@gmail.com> From: Jen Linkova Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 15:38:33 +1000 Message-ID: To: Lorenzo Colitti , Brian E Carpenter Cc: Jeff Tantsura , rtgwg-chairs , v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, V6 Ops List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] RTGWG last call draft-ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Apr 2018 05:38:58 -0000 Brian, Lorenzo, Thanks a lot for the feedback. It's all makes sense, I'm going to post an updated version of the draft before the end of the week to address your comments, stay tuned! NPTv6 will be still mentioned - I believe the draft should explain why it's not a good option. From my experience almost every discussion about v6 multihoming starts with 'we can just do NPTv6, can't we?', so it's a topic worth discussing. Actually there is one more thing about address/prefix translation....we are seeing more and more work to make host/applications path-aware so they could make educated decisions about available paths and choose between them. Selecting the source address might be one of the possible mechanisms path-aware hosts use. Taking multiple addresses (with different properties) from a host and replacing them with ULAs takes some control away from hosts and might be considered as a step backward. On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 1:33 PM, Lorenzo Colitti wrote: > On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 5:44 AM, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >> >> >> Much better, IMHO, to simply ignore NPTv6 in this draft, and >> >> stick to your own knitting. >> > >> > So do you think the whole section 5 shall be removed? (the deployment >> > challenges could be discussed in the separate section) >> >> Personally, yes. You know the strength of feelings in the IETF on this >> issue, which is why NPTv6 is Experimental anyway. So why start a flame >> war when it's a side-issue for your draft anyway? > > > Indeed. If you mention NPTv6 at all, I would just say it's not a solution > because it breaks end-to-end connectivity. -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Sat Apr 14 00:42:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B36AE126DFF; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 00:42:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.449 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.449 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8iqPERaMERvW; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 00:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22d.google.com (mail-lf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2F5F1124D68; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 00:42:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id r7-v6so8403746lfr.1; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 00:42:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=OfughkFF6jycGQnsKGa5R/nTX6VJsQ9OBlU8uXBPRRo=; b=NoVf3q8ewP/Vb9KeAnhVxeoHNqcN8xqZgxp9x65MBPghu7KTB5L5JDdrBy4KDFOGaB f1WZj7Di7PeKYCCGVmsF3g+dnsMULxNAY2zQpw7js8T/gEFZb3Jw42T4sWYtNcteszBf P/6BO5SMml029zKHF/OfoHmxPLl0vp0lOIM8ccrNeAkq+V0D8nlAysg9KJrYQmsQBFDU SXlq82NZyGTqhkC15KDfGTwvLAhA9DPitK3+2D2kzCA5zY22Qd6U1pDZLE1e+BmzQA/5 iCdm4pf4KUQ5DVYJCrcdMAKWkt3Ur4thKFFb3cmchJGEv61qUYH/i4KM4CNq+getAwcr GykA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=OfughkFF6jycGQnsKGa5R/nTX6VJsQ9OBlU8uXBPRRo=; b=crmKFuJsXcJih69aPJBF6pqTIBmtmUExVMIo1WzoKDc9t39ZlsR4F+fM/v252oH4uV jsRwd3LeNjhL40dmL6wZY/NbqiZ32nhKGEtG4lzxzA0UeXjnRhkJUNDCBqd5qoDmgAuN swcfKkPcNdT8SYIMkHIjN7UdSXY5hU79agvuwBzQmAxfrvxS6Y/gr+t4ZsmxTVLOCQ0A oqv/aVbySxGZIe4souJHJ3qL1ZksjJXqt99vAG6UwQdKb/qG8CkhMl+farv951iVViX5 wUbRuYWu6RYgpLPiMWaTRCDueCkH2uH1wfOUxkY3qDo7kWcJrqO1AQMukoDnvsufjh+s zBYg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAIAPxQs4UKg2wc1wJJtGwH9QXfCTdmHVSiRuLA+HplGBqqWYn4 g7S/04xcXteW0IYGBVmbLOZfBZV74hCiPQgiWcE= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/xTFviCi5RYJJp+O35L6++jyPBXPFdk4ONQbBynT7FuvJfgJABZ5TbBLGwA/4TPIxkzHxN3Zrgvh54oFTmh/Y= X-Received: by 10.46.155.204 with SMTP id w12mr4991911ljj.76.1523691748323; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 00:42:28 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:5c9c:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 00:42:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <794587A2-46DF-4F2F-86B5-56083D0864A5@gmail.com> <9a3234af-cc1a-1054-b6d1-3baa7ad7ca81@gmail.com> From: Jen Linkova Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 17:42:07 +1000 Message-ID: To: Brian E Carpenter Cc: Jeff Tantsura , V6 Ops List , rtgwg-chairs , v6ops-chairs@ietf.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] RTGWG last call draft-ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 07:42:32 -0000 The -05 version of the draft has been posted to address comments received. https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-05 On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 6:44 AM, Brian E Carpenter wrote: > On 05/04/2018 18:15, Jen Linkova wrote: >> Brian, >> >> Thanks a lot for reading such a long document and for your comments! >> >>> Generally I like this draft, but there are a couple of issues IMHO: >>> >>>> 5.1. Shim6 >>> ....> We do not consider Shim6 to be a viable solution. It suffers from >>>> the fact that it requires widespread deployment of Shim6 on hosts all >>>> over the Internet before the host at a PA multihomed site sees >>>> significant benefit. However, there appears to be no motivation for >>>> the vast majority of hosts on the Internet (which are not at PA >>>> multihomed sites) to deploy Shim6. This may help explain why Shim6 >>>> has not been widely implemented. >>> >>> I don't think the chicken-and-egg issue was the main problem with shim6. >>> IMHO there were three problems: >>> 1) The fact that the Internet is not transparent to shim6 headers; >>> 2) The fact that source-address based routing is not readily >>> available (sounds familiar?); >>> 3) The rather surprising negative reaction to shim6 from many >>> ISPs, apparently because they viewed it as a loss of control. >>> Those three facts made the incremental deployment model infeasible. >>> >>> But does it matter? I'd tend to delete the whole paragraph. The >>> only fact that matters is the lack of deployment. >> >> I believe the point here is a particular multihomed enterprise can not >> use Shim6 as a solution because Shim6 has to be globally supported >> first and it's not happening (as opposed to NAT-PT, for example: if a >> given network really wants to use it, it could be enabled and used). >> How about I remove the second part of the paragraph, starting from >> 'However, there appears to be no motivation.."? > > Sure. That avoids the discussion, which is an academic question anyway; > that fact that Shim6 failed to deploy is enough... > >>>> 5.2. IPv6-to-IPv6 Network Prefix Translation >>> .... >>>> Until that occurs, NPTv6 should still >>>> be considered a viable option to enable PA multihoming for >>>> enterprises. >>> >>> Most of this section is not about NPTv6; it's about deployment >>> challenges for your main proposal. That's fine and worth explaining. >>> However, the real issue is that advocating NPTv6 will delay progress >>> on this draft for something that really doesn't belong in the routing >>> area. In many peoples' opinion, this is not something the IETF >>> should say, and it's definitely contentious. >>> >>> Much better, IMHO, to simply ignore NPTv6 in this draft, and >>> stick to your own knitting. >> >> So do you think the whole section 5 shall be removed? (the deployment >> challenges could be discussed in the separate section) > > Personally, yes. You know the strength of feelings in the IETF on this > issue, which is why NPTv6 is Experimental anyway. So why start a flame > war when it's a side-issue for your draft anyway? > > Brian > -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Sat Apr 14 14:03:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9D96E12702E; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:03:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RpZu0gzwR60n; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pl0-x229.google.com (mail-pl0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c01::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1BB2E1250B8; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pl0-x229.google.com with SMTP id x4-v6so7913447pln.7; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:03:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=gWc64teT2tD4ltrm4e2ot51P1s5npcF59fy9eGRkq2c=; b=L+qXi6m84eDj1B2K7sqvy2qEc891c2IBu4l0xFCYs+FNh6nyblUMEkcz9xSCJDqhc6 DioFOWcMtIJON8lZba0A1FD+OwCUzi2r8vCgc4XoWOvFDGoXpw7syXQ35F5H2D3fANgg 7fwQX18P/M6fh5zOxbDda9nos1oSsjqjBr+BY49g3/AGgABKOoatCdkAV5/AtnLxT8WB z2mcg8NP285cRFlH2SJ7HGDeKKvFPbyvkNck2wEG6pdxoJx5aQrQ40a3dsYHMh7rEUFH V7skr8g0NDrHHfiWtI9SMGF716uvirwdteZP+7cIfV2rjzMk134+ZoiQ2vfVCwJMgTUX ddfA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:cc:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=gWc64teT2tD4ltrm4e2ot51P1s5npcF59fy9eGRkq2c=; b=asMWQNAxYKYLg7ZIjHKvk6GmJMcRdGa/mCHh07MllyHIUL1fQbG4jZYB+Sox9TSkcY 10rbtcMRzL88ZzJNRCKXckZHRcVdYOVB3aZqkx7Tvyl8uxgFRHNVUk1stQKRFijal7A/ FNVOUFuP1gIVg8edMk921fdxrw3+e2TGKAImxBusE+8NdmzWhtk+3Jh+8xhJ5fjsRpAP TXnhlQpGLPAOITWnwobs2l9mOX66IbC/3JnchOVMyksKNVZLlKHg5GjyUdiCefpgMtvl Y3Jy5XonkLtXxKhAVmKsmFYPId5jxwdT0U5AsTbX3a87OJ5SScnIvARfvGf3gxPpBMpR keMg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tA3P+weerZbyjsiACHNi0WkEH1N8hQSCEkdKHAOSHB/xm9gmi5h dHXup6rb+gOcTmBcOOZGiPHWhQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48KXFWfp/E5KeLo4FEC7C5+2lsgngof3GzBdAey91oPxn/bYxpUZhPV3JQVSN5+MJXKySHKxg== X-Received: by 2002:a17:902:7d8a:: with SMTP id a10-v6mr9969783plm.268.1523739782404; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:03:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.26] ([118.149.104.115]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j10sm19548284pfj.1.2018.04.14.14.02.58 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:03:01 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Brian Carpenter To: Jen Linkova Cc: Jeff Tantsura , V6 Ops List , rtgwg-chairs , v6ops-chairs@ietf.org References: <794587A2-46DF-4F2F-86B5-56083D0864A5@gmail.com> <9a3234af-cc1a-1054-b6d1-3baa7ad7ca81@gmail.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 09:02:56 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] RTGWG last call draft-ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 21:03:06 -0000 This version looks good to me. Thanks Brian On 14/04/2018 19:42, Jen Linkova wrote: > The -05 version of the draft has been posted to address comments received. > > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-05 > > > On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 6:44 AM, Brian E Carpenter > wrote: >> On 05/04/2018 18:15, Jen Linkova wrote: >>> Brian, >>> >>> Thanks a lot for reading such a long document and for your comments! >>> >>>> Generally I like this draft, but there are a couple of issues IMHO: >>>> >>>>> 5.1. Shim6 >>>> ....> We do not consider Shim6 to be a viable solution. It suffers from >>>>> the fact that it requires widespread deployment of Shim6 on hosts all >>>>> over the Internet before the host at a PA multihomed site sees >>>>> significant benefit. However, there appears to be no motivation for >>>>> the vast majority of hosts on the Internet (which are not at PA >>>>> multihomed sites) to deploy Shim6. This may help explain why Shim6 >>>>> has not been widely implemented. >>>> >>>> I don't think the chicken-and-egg issue was the main problem with shim6. >>>> IMHO there were three problems: >>>> 1) The fact that the Internet is not transparent to shim6 headers; >>>> 2) The fact that source-address based routing is not readily >>>> available (sounds familiar?); >>>> 3) The rather surprising negative reaction to shim6 from many >>>> ISPs, apparently because they viewed it as a loss of control. >>>> Those three facts made the incremental deployment model infeasible. >>>> >>>> But does it matter? I'd tend to delete the whole paragraph. The >>>> only fact that matters is the lack of deployment. >>> >>> I believe the point here is a particular multihomed enterprise can not >>> use Shim6 as a solution because Shim6 has to be globally supported >>> first and it's not happening (as opposed to NAT-PT, for example: if a >>> given network really wants to use it, it could be enabled and used). >>> How about I remove the second part of the paragraph, starting from >>> 'However, there appears to be no motivation.."? >> >> Sure. That avoids the discussion, which is an academic question anyway; >> that fact that Shim6 failed to deploy is enough... >> >>>>> 5.2. IPv6-to-IPv6 Network Prefix Translation >>>> .... >>>>> Until that occurs, NPTv6 should still >>>>> be considered a viable option to enable PA multihoming for >>>>> enterprises. >>>> >>>> Most of this section is not about NPTv6; it's about deployment >>>> challenges for your main proposal. That's fine and worth explaining. >>>> However, the real issue is that advocating NPTv6 will delay progress >>>> on this draft for something that really doesn't belong in the routing >>>> area. In many peoples' opinion, this is not something the IETF >>>> should say, and it's definitely contentious. >>>> >>>> Much better, IMHO, to simply ignore NPTv6 in this draft, and >>>> stick to your own knitting. >>> >>> So do you think the whole section 5 shall be removed? (the deployment >>> challenges could be discussed in the separate section) >> >> Personally, yes. You know the strength of feelings in the IETF on this >> issue, which is why NPTv6 is Experimental anyway. So why start a flame >> war when it's a side-issue for your draft anyway? >> >> Brian >> > > > From nobody Sat Apr 14 14:23:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 497F212702E; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:23:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YpiRnobWk4yq; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22a.google.com (mail-pf0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C4AA41250B8; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id f15so8758741pfn.0; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:23:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=yITMjgvoXSXwOwLha4I9XL/ZhBSTRSri6B05RrHXxEU=; b=m8bsmtly3t0cbNChFf+mfbQ+fHMeQFzaWm8qC8nQhx6TiDO0OdGBfWNPknyV3MaksE mENvCY63m8tNrxKwN5GsPHGdO/DLyf2V9Gg0nBHtox0tNjqt5hO0GD2vGpkrv0tKuHeq lt9f05VE2ELm8WGODN7e8qOJCfBuqS4lePHw7+MoKZATdxRVPYSs2qvAyquhIaOa/EC9 xpkezOivXTBftQin/miBVnn+1svScYk0sMFaNj74z9tEz0m5Wlm96bsveD5zcrNrPt+3 7XWVUtiX87hXW2vq7AAE0/+54B79Ftdqe2knv6BPrPbHJ/BB4nGg7cjAOTsUThukX+ms M3cQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=yITMjgvoXSXwOwLha4I9XL/ZhBSTRSri6B05RrHXxEU=; b=pGY4aAi1jonHs4F5JMW6YPQtx/nYIdk8gDnw892p65Gcx9HfzRkq8NO8fPPr1POpMq aqa1dg0sfZICBLqCy+SY+nQCf3HCcu9M16R1aGVHvKXDsyl6oJwUNAhov0un7KgyoXzE mA7IoKVvrDXBaJNiBVr7+vSwLAlpAr6WCNlc9iokiCUGBia1BXS4ixXUDhVd5uZ7iYUn ipPFVrvWyNLMRW6UADCm+4I4mrvqgzilVVTj1zCpy3nzVLlvJ5aPvcIcBvfXPXl+ceNt Y5oDndo3XSpphtS4BoD4exlZ8iNBQcEhlDTe0EQ/S+68ftpakyfg9seGcViit6OowZl0 fxpQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDV2jnviqDG1oVKHLCIrWeuG1923w5g92v4H1Ga+03njE16Hm4w lSo4cLPXFvw1RtPC4S7srv0= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48RxzoNGhbOD+ywWg4nleleqx4sfuU9c9aOK7gBvVfjKIa+IJIgEiNUQBwfRbZ93vaSqYSwpQ== X-Received: by 10.98.225.20 with SMTP id q20mr16287597pfh.142.1523741027163; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.14] ([76.126.247.72]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n73sm22428130pfb.108.2018.04.14.14.23.46 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:23:46 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Jeff Tantsura X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15E216) In-Reply-To: Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 14:23:45 -0700 Cc: Jen Linkova , V6 Ops List , rtgwg-chairs , v6ops-chairs@ietf.org Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <794587A2-46DF-4F2F-86B5-56083D0864A5@gmail.com> <9a3234af-cc1a-1054-b6d1-3baa7ad7ca81@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] RTGWG last call draft-ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 21:23:50 -0000 Thanks Brian! We are going to proceed with the WGLC in the RTGWG. Regards, Jeff > On Apr 14, 2018, at 14:02, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > This version looks good to me. >=20 > Thanks > Brian >=20 >> On 14/04/2018 19:42, Jen Linkova wrote: >> The -05 version of the draft has been posted to address comments received= . >>=20 >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming-05= >>=20 >>=20 >> On Fri, Apr 6, 2018 at 6:44 AM, Brian E Carpenter >> wrote: >>> On 05/04/2018 18:15, Jen Linkova wrote: >>>> Brian, >>>>=20 >>>> Thanks a lot for reading such a long document and for your comments! >>>>=20 >>>>> Generally I like this draft, but there are a couple of issues IMHO: >>>>>=20 >>>>>> 5.1. Shim6 >>>>> ....> We do not consider Shim6 to be a viable solution. It suffers= from >>>>>> the fact that it requires widespread deployment of Shim6 on hosts a= ll >>>>>> over the Internet before the host at a PA multihomed site sees >>>>>> significant benefit. However, there appears to be no motivation fo= r >>>>>> the vast majority of hosts on the Internet (which are not at PA >>>>>> multihomed sites) to deploy Shim6. This may help explain why Shim6= >>>>>> has not been widely implemented. >>>>>=20 >>>>> I don't think the chicken-and-egg issue was the main problem with shim= 6. >>>>> IMHO there were three problems: >>>>> 1) The fact that the Internet is not transparent to shim6 headers; >>>>> 2) The fact that source-address based routing is not readily >>>>> available (sounds familiar?); >>>>> 3) The rather surprising negative reaction to shim6 from many >>>>> ISPs, apparently because they viewed it as a loss of control. >>>>> Those three facts made the incremental deployment model infeasible. >>>>>=20 >>>>> But does it matter? I'd tend to delete the whole paragraph. The >>>>> only fact that matters is the lack of deployment. >>>>=20 >>>> I believe the point here is a particular multihomed enterprise can not >>>> use Shim6 as a solution because Shim6 has to be globally supported >>>> first and it's not happening (as opposed to NAT-PT, for example: if a >>>> given network really wants to use it, it could be enabled and used). >>>> How about I remove the second part of the paragraph, starting from >>>> 'However, there appears to be no motivation.."? >>>=20 >>> Sure. That avoids the discussion, which is an academic question anyway; >>> that fact that Shim6 failed to deploy is enough... >>>=20 >>>>>> 5.2. IPv6-to-IPv6 Network Prefix Translation >>>>> .... >>>>>> Until that occurs, NPTv6 should still >>>>>> be considered a viable option to enable PA multihoming for >>>>>> enterprises. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Most of this section is not about NPTv6; it's about deployment >>>>> challenges for your main proposal. That's fine and worth explaining. >>>>> However, the real issue is that advocating NPTv6 will delay progress >>>>> on this draft for something that really doesn't belong in the routing >>>>> area. In many peoples' opinion, this is not something the IETF >>>>> should say, and it's definitely contentious. >>>>>=20 >>>>> Much better, IMHO, to simply ignore NPTv6 in this draft, and >>>>> stick to your own knitting. >>>>=20 >>>> So do you think the whole section 5 shall be removed? (the deployment >>>> challenges could be discussed in the separate section) >>>=20 >>> Personally, yes. You know the strength of feelings in the IETF on this >>> issue, which is why NPTv6 is Experimental anyway. So why start a flame >>> war when it's a side-issue for your draft anyway? >>>=20 >>> Brian >>>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 From nobody Sat Apr 14 22:00:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 984441243F6 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 22:00:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3WD9NczNag-B for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 22:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-oi0-x22d.google.com (mail-oi0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4003:c06::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 905D7126CBF for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 22:00:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-oi0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id x9-v6so11732664oig.7 for ; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 22:00:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:date:subject:message-id:to; bh=9L6dTunQFhyTFDJTqYf1YqZd1zS3lJ+su29XmMBwMzU=; b=mbEduIz4wmzZbHFFo2HmtytNTG+udg3VYXBJw9+h9clzgeasY8BPLjttVAXTJiCGWY UKZOsOuXnxab7ASKdUjop1EBMSemHsZsZCYlAKuJbYqCjKQqJCktiqJbUE8HRPwHpuTi s0Mhme3z1tivKdLbM5A71mbbKHFsfDF/+EyxiNR2XItdkmzz4hrw6JmJ73VcA/Zv7ieX nLtH/vmR4s3VjF+ZRvvfL/JcGDLyEXPK2H/QoBu32sqWfWAItEIY/ndbHr2MpfR9WDkJ Gu/cBKV45D1aILX90d5gd04wQz01Uf1BDfjI6GQv8qXTploe/XZAu2iYxN+EfJWVG4+g 409Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:subject:message-id:to; bh=9L6dTunQFhyTFDJTqYf1YqZd1zS3lJ+su29XmMBwMzU=; b=Eir6o74BipuQNQWMLfGTEa+dyfficUoRBWH+gugkZMGTPFykyfxN9Zo5QGGEbq8H4c s0wWk2lKXHYkXQAqwM8/3GrjC/HlW20igbmg/h0fcNOixkFAbtZbeZzi3tmq9Fm1EEm0 2De3F6ubVrxvRLhoyssUwvANRBNT6FZPMWhV1/8q5Z4V7X+65XnkXwECyNr4C+O1bnHn wwMGTFeRKdwSACy81yh0scK+bcK7Xxjw30DN8IrihFJAsQd9oYMkFT97Ep0q+IgI2N3m 8ntTE5eo+xgLCsuA192It5ecjpOaqTCXHipXu0H8+QVM0x8xzWfwZWCZzyzR3giibLet jyIQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tARMGtsMr/i4phPkjQQl2MANs4Wi5GxpukV4R1bBnSy5LGzA533 o8yWuJwP6gk/bGadBzNWtZ/v54VD X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/5gUzCxvCyhgDxUPFpgUMsub2cORW4SLm6zNAmZoBjSlhZNSzUvZSzwK0yqmZahiwy0pqBPw== X-Received: by 2002:aca:b842:: with SMTP id i63-v6mr12555895oif.49.1523768415830; Sat, 14 Apr 2018 22:00:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8802:5600:1546::11ed? ([2600:8802:5600:1546::11ed]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id b41-v6sm5777029oth.60.2018.04.14.22.00.14 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 14 Apr 2018 22:00:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_EEADDF3F-E02B-46FE-BBA4-B42643223044"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Sat, 14 Apr 2018 22:00:40 -0700 Message-Id: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> To: V6 Ops List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 05:00:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_EEADDF3F-E02B-46FE-BBA4-B42643223044 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented = draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas. The draft is at = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas, and = his presentation deck is at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transi= tion-requirements-for-ipv6-ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00. I would like to invite discussion. In particular, this draft derives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, and = the chairs wonder if it should be reposted as the next version of = draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That should happen if an only if the = working group thinks it should be published as an RFC (now or at some = point) adding considerations for implementors of RFC 7084 and also = implementing transition services. A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many transition = mechanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that opinion, if you = could give that advice, identify the mechanism or mechanisms you think = should be listed, and indicate the reasoning behind your viewpoint. For = example, if you think MAP-T should be listed, it would be helpful to = know what operators are implementing MAP-T and are looking for CE = Routers that support it. The same comment applies to any such mechanism = or service. --Apple-Mail=_EEADDF3F-E02B-46FE-BBA4-B42643223044 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlrS3HgACgkQEhdRnd2G P+Ai4w//eCA9QopEhKXXRKc4+l5Afv0VWEsqi6MU7o41jxoq7UQPAk2nh9OYFxOw ro8Tlf/wHypPKHAb3BBHqyA56iD9alczQINr/q1/8OpNC5e2GECWKJpncGE35F92 lX9HEAdclmN9In5AJ2cMCSqBaR8L2aUZvlmxO6aishVEcaHkU697cRAB/+NEIS9z mockQQaOT8P9rQ8sqm1monWej/Cy7GGEUHIlf+dLPsB4XdGDlPmR837grElR+f7W E0NgJd9kyxneMxlUu9GDcDjIgOCl2imrVL7UazuKQbQ6tNTV8LK1kOuwgMNTBclL 3ytnsK+R5XonyXywic7aAnsUk6626JxeoGtUvY3DcrJtM26TGHFKLr53YBTtllUh Q4eSpRRfZaV9GAjuW5JoFFeGGXtKlsBH+zplsg4fZSSFyXiE/J2fJWuNJAjua8GD f+gmP0Gm+S+2xUGPWy6gad7Mbuo+wRgtoVLp+QvzBrJhK7ImEs8YKMDlRj63nszj xY13jdYZwydx/pJPZ3pYfdjA0TW0PaPNHxKdFUeFJgPMJ9fzhJMyf+HlmM6jeeEI QyicymhhdAKncDScZPyF4Kx+QRJUyVUUwis+c4Zt+BwmEfcPNb0LqZ4yoiq9jf7v qQZ/saPElzT+uDeyoIA5I8HioiE12tnrl2B7VgPKSDs7HDpsUx0= =US8M -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_EEADDF3F-E02B-46FE-BBA4-B42643223044-- From nobody Sun Apr 15 02:16:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2DB7C126DFF for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 02:16:48 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7xRvek0HuHXA for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 02:16:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42E9D1267BB for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 02:16:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1523783803; x=1524388603; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=+800Cspy 7dYD1diXaDHDwllEUBoautkVZ0qLehEZCZ8=; b=E0baMvEFY+wo1AMsgK4/FdIA ML9JKV1aNfhQE/zbFbodCKqDO+3GoO4J5umIP1HO8KJB+1I6Cxf2El1iIREWmOep bMVs1c8gn7c9vfGutoa7r+M9NPt5+SwXlqEzhyHn9eNG72C/klrEKytXPXPIY5jh bzo7/2FDe+1bBdUAGV4= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sun, 15 Apr 2018 11:16:43 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sun, 15 Apr 2018 11:16:42 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005751622.msg for ; Sun, 15 Apr 2018 11:16:42 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:f0d0:adcb:2e90:97bf X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 11:16:42 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1643abb877=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 11:16:39 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <7E49B768-9650-4804-9B59-49EAB8A8F91A@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 15 Apr 2018 09:16:48 -0000 Hi Fred, all, My comments regarding this. RFC7084 had only 2 transition mechanisms, DS-Lite and 6RD. draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas has 4: 1) lw4o6: Basically, in terms of code, this is a "subset of DS-LITE", so if= DS-Lite and IPv4 NAT support is already implemented, lw4o6 is also "there"= . 2) 464XLAT MAP-T and MAP-E. They also share most of the code already implem= ented for the previous ones. This is explained in section 7 of the document, as it was requested during = previous discussions in the draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis and "follow-up" do= cs. Last, but not least, because this document follow the same structure regard= ing the transitions mechanisms as RFC7084, the document doesn't mandate any= of them. It is just saying, "if you want to implement this transition, rem= ember that in addition to RFCxxx, you need to do this and that". >From that perspective, I don't think the comment "too many" is a valid one.= In fact we could add more, and be in the same situation: the document is n= ot mandating any of them. I recall I responded to that question in the last= meeting and was not "contra-argued" on that. Regarding the question of if there are deployments on each of those, yes, p= robably fewer on MAP-E/T that the other two, but they are big. During the discussion on draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, it was confirmed in = the list by several voices, hopefully they can confirm again and I'm sure t= here are many others, for example for the case of lw4o6, I recall this emai= l from DT group: https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/v6ops/current/msg25227.html, which me= ntions 1.5 million users. I'm aware of similar other cases with each of those mechanisms, even with s= everal millions users. What we, unfortunately, aren't going to get here, is the voices of small IS= Ps (500-10.000 customers), which I know a few of them as well, which are as= king their CE vendors for this support, and the response is "not in RFC7084= ") and they aren't "big" enough (each of them), to ask for that in a tender= , specially because in most of the cases, they just go to the retail market= and buy 10 units each week (last week I got a couple of cases on that in S= pain, during the ESNOG, considering lw4o6 or 464XLAT). Another example is: https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/v6ops/GvBFbzn32pP5x02UbB_7E3B12SQ In my survey about IPv6 deployment (only residential, no corporate, no cell= ular), with over 1.520 responses up to now, I got 3% with 464XLAT, 1% for l= w4o6, 1% for MAP-E, 1% for MAP-T. For comparision, 6rd was 3%, softwires 1%= , tunnel broker 3%, dual-stack with CGN 8%, DS-LITE 3%, dual-stack with pub= lic IPv4 71%. Just comparing a single "pair", 6rd with 464XLAT, I think it is easy to con= clude that they are at the same level. There was a time for 6rd and DS-Lite= , time is now for successors which allow "IPv6-only" access. I'm sure my co-author, a CE vendor, can also provide more details on all th= is from a vendors perspective and what they heard from customers/market. So clearly, I think that being this document a "follow-up", as instructed b= y the v6ops WG, after having adopted as WG item RFC7084-bis, we should do t= he same with this document. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Fred Baker Fecha: domingo, 15 de abril de 2018, 7:00 Para: V6 Ops List Asunto: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented draft-palet-v6ops-transitio= n-ipv4aas. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-tr= ansition-ipv4aas, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.ietf.= org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transition-requirements-for-ipv6= -ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00. =20 I would like to invite discussion. =20 In particular, this draft derives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, an= d the chairs wonder if it should be reposted as the next version of draft-i= etf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That should happen if an only if the working group t= hinks it should be published as an RFC (now or at some point) adding consid= erations for implementors of RFC 7084 and also implementing transition serv= ices. =20 A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many transition= mechanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that opinion, if you c= ould give that advice, identify the mechanism or mechanisms you think shoul= d be listed, and indicate the reasoning behind your viewpoint. For example,= if you think MAP-T should be listed, it would be helpful to know what oper= ators are implementing MAP-T and are looking for CE Routers that support it= . The same comment applies to any such mechanism or service. =20 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue Apr 17 12:20:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A800127909 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:20:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=helix-net-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CuOxJdZTU6ij for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:20:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x236.google.com (mail-io0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DE2C412025C for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:20:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x236.google.com with SMTP id d6so23748401iog.1 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:20:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=helix-net-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1NQldQceUYecjky6Vec0NJzNMmDM2ls/wGz5PhP0FXc=; b=PmvHQ2K1rMlOKVsGxB4fUoCBZoQOmym0LErLlFHSE9cCPfXuCOySIUt8tbzh+j3aTj s0lw21/qRBM/hTd1lKT3EO3frcivtxgyNMHBRuVkxVWTzusmpqa6PNALti393GzAGyZL j/Mbcxlyy6jmnQ7oaDyUcaJos2La6aVOmtJRJFWCbF5PFsMdnaYpwPJ3PZXglaNqrPsn BhZko3MyvgDNX24/guo4L7MDC7XoSDKH1e8kdH/Llm2zs1zp/fMUmVa0VLkZIfRWhreI PRLQzqZdurV4QXoXfmMYm750Xif5NS/QXaU0rcpMUJTE77UfaJlEpX53Cce4ppbcoQoX sWNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=1NQldQceUYecjky6Vec0NJzNMmDM2ls/wGz5PhP0FXc=; b=JkDLmYYS8Znhyc8xWIK/YdVcYClF7verCsLVnSnGHGTtnZhA+5dgzyG676aUZ3We1s zLYfD8buB57dNTTi+BAGmvWvOLlTphPyEWNc2yLDWVvgQ9FkV6I3whoSIZNEW8gtC87m 5xj8+EnD5Neuiq+RoFpPE7mAg2vNmFHi6TlTnqfon2IBz4y+ljA11SG3ePI5lTpuvTN0 sE0rEB2EwGqeE9mZMbdMrLAXwW/hK8kxlSv2R+KryaJ12eAnIvwNP6vZRQsMRUJliQC0 sKZREHEaO+RXc4uIcGKtjfvImoK29mlBueC92G5rAN8V7T/n4i9njkj7ULJSr4Gj7aIc BdZw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAC2xVaTUFDqZtbHwKvz3f1zk2HyNnLWvPY4hbjCvWJHDAzl+hf zSI2o54G8DpiQrT5sK+UqxHJiXs8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49Myc+QfuWHj/OFgOHW17VIiZ44QYsd4uyvAuXcWJF69bT7V9ilkNDmH3/XU9U5U9lPXqTR1Q== X-Received: by 10.107.173.137 with SMTP id m9mr3352244ioo.1.1523992846722; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:20:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-f182.google.com (mail-io0-f182.google.com. [209.85.223.182]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x79sm7914847ioe.17.2018.04.17.12.20.45 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-f182.google.com with SMTP id c26so11111608iob.3 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:20:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.107.204.1 with SMTP id c1mr3293682iog.304.1523992844933; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:20:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.47.137 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:20:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> From: Richard Patterson Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:20:24 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: V6 Ops List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:20:52 -0000 Hi Fred, et al. Speaking as an Operator who is currently validating MAP-T as a solution, I'm in favour of making sure it itself is included in future versions of this draft. There are multiple vendors offering MAP-T Border Relays, and we've been testing both OpenWRT-based CPEs as well as a custom CPE based on the Broadcom BCM63138 SoC. The Broadcom reference SDK comes with the CERNET kernel module and userland tool, and supports hardware acceleration of MAP-T translated flows with Broadcom's Runner fastpath. I was also quite impressed with OpenWRT's implementation; aside from initially needing internet connectivity to install the map-t module after a fresh install, no further configuration is required to have the CPE dynamically configure itself with MAP-T, given the appropriate DHCPv6 options. Kudos to the OpenWRT/LEDE devs on their support. Re: the draft's =C2=A75.3.4. It's succinct enough, whilst still directing implementors to the relevant RFCs, however I'm still mulling over the NAT44 and iptables/netfilter concerns that I raised in softwires a few months back.[1] The address-sharing mode's algorithm for port allocations, isn't easily implementable with the current iptables/netfilter behaviour. OpenWRT's approach creates rule shadowing and port ranges that never get utilised. -Richard [1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/softwires/current/msg06832.html On 15 April 2018 at 06:00, Fred Baker wrote: > At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented draft-palet-v6ops-transition-= ipv4aas. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-tran= sition-ipv4aas, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.ietf.or= g/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transition-requirements-for-ipv6-c= e-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00. > > I would like to invite discussion. > > In particular, this draft derives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, and = the chairs wonder if it should be reposted as the next version of draft-iet= f-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That should happen if an only if the working group thi= nks it should be published as an RFC (now or at some point) adding consider= ations for implementors of RFC 7084 and also implementing transition servic= es. > > A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many transition m= echanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that opinion, if you cou= ld give that advice, identify the mechanism or mechanisms you think should = be listed, and indicate the reasoning behind your viewpoint. For example, i= f you think MAP-T should be listed, it would be helpful to know what operat= ors are implementing MAP-T and are looking for CE Routers that support it. = The same comment applies to any such mechanism or service. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Tue Apr 17 12:30:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 932671201FA for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:30:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7JSM3WHbmKG9 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:30:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 66FEE12420B for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 12:30:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1523993403; x=1524598203; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=bs+x1aaI lFKl2bKUlmDsVbQVw+stpt+NgFbNunb6ZoQ=; b=h4ti+kAxhLLJIc3CqbVtspWI PpjuaiumBQzIanjZO9gRAm97Vvx7466WndxXSXccPBLiM1t9DWAuFqZXK9tgTQgy zY8T4eFrKK57M/T15j24XeoU5t834d6cLTktePb2QBuu80XaQcc0nPAnNxSkG7YR F6j6LKxB+lUoh1Y41Vs= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:30:03 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:30:02 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005753001.msg for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:30:02 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:2052:a03d:454d:1b1 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:30:02 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1645254bf4=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:29:57 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Richard Patterson , V6 Ops List Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 19:30:10 -0000 Hi Richard, Thanks for the input! Regarding your comment on the NAT44 iptables/netfilter ... Do you think thi= s is something that can be mention/sorted out by some specific text in my I= D ? I'm guessing it will apply to both MAP-T and MAP-E, not sure if in the same= way, but we can have some text to at least make sure implementors sort it = out, without the need to update the relevant RFCs. Or do you think they sho= uld be updated (which open a another can of worms maybe ...). Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Richard Patterson Fecha: martes, 17 de abril de 2018, 21:21 Para: V6 Ops List Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Hi Fred, et al. =20 Speaking as an Operator who is currently validating MAP-T as a solution, I'm in favour of making sure it itself is included in future versions of this draft. =20 There are multiple vendors offering MAP-T Border Relays, and we've been testing both OpenWRT-based CPEs as well as a custom CPE based on the Broadcom BCM63138 SoC. The Broadcom reference SDK comes with the CERNET kernel module and userland tool, and supports hardware acceleration of MAP-T translated flows with Broadcom's Runner fastpath. =20 I was also quite impressed with OpenWRT's implementation; aside from initially needing internet connectivity to install the map-t module after a fresh install, no further configuration is required to have the CPE dynamically configure itself with MAP-T, given the appropriate DHCPv6 options. Kudos to the OpenWRT/LEDE devs on their support. =20 Re: the draft's =C2=A75.3.4. It's succinct enough, whilst still direct= ing implementors to the relevant RFCs, however I'm still mulling over the NAT44 and iptables/netfilter concerns that I raised in softwires a few months back.[1] The address-sharing mode's algorithm for port allocations, isn't easily implementable with the current iptables/netfilter behaviour. OpenWRT's approach creates rule shadowing and port ranges that never get utilised. =20 -Richard =20 =20 [1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/softwires/current/msg06832.ht= ml =20 On 15 April 2018 at 06:00, Fred Baker wrote: > At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented draft-palet-v6ops-transit= ion-ipv4aas. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-= transition-ipv4aas, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.iet= f.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transition-requirements-for-ip= v6-ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00. > > I would like to invite discussion. > > In particular, this draft derives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, = and the chairs wonder if it should be reposted as the next version of draft= -ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That should happen if an only if the working group= thinks it should be published as an RFC (now or at some point) adding cons= iderations for implementors of RFC 7084 and also implementing transition se= rvices. > > A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many transiti= on mechanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that opinion, if you= could give that advice, identify the mechanism or mechanisms you think sho= uld be listed, and indicate the reasoning behind your viewpoint. For exampl= e, if you think MAP-T should be listed, it would be helpful to know what op= erators are implementing MAP-T and are looking for CE Routers that support = it. The same comment applies to any such mechanism or service. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Tue Apr 17 13:32:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 799BA126D05 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:32:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id acDNuzMTDlmz for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22b.google.com (mail-wr0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0F756120725 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:32:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id f14so1416294wre.4 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:32:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=QXUC2MI2eCXiOotZcjXYFNcgWMnSIZxcKsGf4I2FrY0=; b=F2Ww30ryCTDhIWfMvCsCLIFmK6FKYHuVpGSXxcVtVZB/wdqLOmezFkmGmewLoEbcdE atJwE95S/XvyadKwFZcDR7bIQhttzDf/vYgauu7K8cxnKEHZ6/EF/XEuz1IRdQLRaluQ Xlboxva0CBO9mwACUDnAJxedf9UUaE2PTzlk9rIpFnlyVOgSkOUZBniMfwItsIKzelhe DIDgkHBufXsO89rCJ2bhPRNS5Bggkg/F8NF02+tN2oGCloFx3ieE6RRDeQe/xg71gNCC 2lVR3PxMjykcd9iq3/I/PZjTV9UeV82+aao3fC/VJ6KHkjUBLDJ60MEDUwCuwaIi6S2L SGjg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=QXUC2MI2eCXiOotZcjXYFNcgWMnSIZxcKsGf4I2FrY0=; b=O49AvYwQaJUtQg/9DL1WiN1p08vVr8hHG7HvLjjRAN+AbP8HoGEQ8/XUhChsIwtk+7 aVpnyNxGUjIfXxIzwZbWDd5+yvLmyrKwEw31+YT7MVIgV3lvX05+M8IBh9RkSqHsWyNP 4FESaeUWVzdWJANPGoZzzLJIY2Wqb0Cuh893hLTgmUADFV/RTAYq4TNjgX4KlXfQTFo7 NiewgkbxTI9XYMUbSvg8bpTpxAswRW1oNCXhKY4ypRKyY5yIIsa5olpmQJz4DvVh0mIv H0sIpNP9b/45PUtFN2lQT7BJjhluH8O7Z/GrHtoDiQfSX0xbFVwVL3IhHn2pj3KSFuR+ cqww== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tD+gWx2+tlcMIhTQsVMZ6/lUAT+3ggZT+OtpILFB/Bfbrn4kHOO nCMuzrC0mjZVIkaWQ+0I0+o= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/ftgKl9yCcm972Ur5niBRBX/O0E5cjaTfFAGgKvSt37REDhrF8AXkdZSImD0fQ9iCj97trqw== X-Received: by 10.80.230.9 with SMTP id y9mr4854520edm.26.1523997127507; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:32:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:4f8:3:65:4d0a:a936:3069:cd79? ([2001:4f8:3:65:4d0a:a936:3069:cd79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e14sm3882817edk.29.2018.04.17.13.32.05 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:32:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C6B9CD6C-B622-4B71-AC20-BC3508476128"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:32:03 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: V6 Ops List To: Richard Patterson References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:32:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C6B9CD6C-B622-4B71-AC20-BC3508476128 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Let me ask an additional question. We have had at least one operator = speak against adoption of this draft as a working group draft, because = she doesn't want to add requirements to customer-edge (CE) routers, = which potentially make them more complex and therefore expensive (every = line of code costs something and has some probability of containing a = bug or attack). It sounds like you would support adoption of the draft = if it contains the right set of features and doesn't contain anything = else, and if (as it is currently written) that it would be implemented = in addition to RFC 7084. "The right set of features", from your = perspective, includes MAP-T. Is that a correct deduction? > On Apr 17, 2018, at 12:20 PM, Richard Patterson = wrote: >=20 > Hi Fred, et al. >=20 > Speaking as an Operator who is currently validating MAP-T as a > solution, I'm in favour of making sure it itself is included in future > versions of this draft. >=20 > There are multiple vendors offering MAP-T Border Relays, and we've > been testing both OpenWRT-based CPEs as well as a custom CPE based on > the Broadcom BCM63138 SoC. > The Broadcom reference SDK comes with the CERNET kernel module and > userland tool, and supports hardware acceleration of MAP-T translated > flows with Broadcom's Runner fastpath. >=20 > I was also quite impressed with OpenWRT's implementation; aside from > initially needing internet connectivity to install the map-t module > after a fresh install, no further configuration is required to have > the CPE dynamically configure itself with MAP-T, given the appropriate > DHCPv6 options. Kudos to the OpenWRT/LEDE devs on their support. >=20 > Re: the draft's =C2=A75.3.4. It's succinct enough, whilst still = directing > implementors to the relevant RFCs, however I'm still mulling over the > NAT44 and iptables/netfilter concerns that I raised in softwires a few > months back.[1] The address-sharing mode's algorithm for port > allocations, isn't easily implementable with the current > iptables/netfilter behaviour. OpenWRT's approach creates rule > shadowing and port ranges that never get utilised. >=20 > -Richard >=20 >=20 > [1] = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/softwires/current/msg06832.html >=20 > On 15 April 2018 at 06:00, Fred Baker = wrote: >> At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented = draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas. The draft is at = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas, and = his presentation deck is at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transi= tion-requirements-for-ipv6-ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00. >>=20 >> I would like to invite discussion. >>=20 >> In particular, this draft derives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, = and the chairs wonder if it should be reposted as the next version of = draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That should happen if an only if the = working group thinks it should be published as an RFC (now or at some = point) adding considerations for implementors of RFC 7084 and also = implementing transition services. >>=20 >> A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many = transition mechanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that = opinion, if you could give that advice, identify the mechanism or = mechanisms you think should be listed, and indicate the reasoning behind = your viewpoint. For example, if you think MAP-T should be listed, it = would be helpful to know what operators are implementing MAP-T and are = looking for CE Routers that support it. The same comment applies to any = such mechanism or service. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_C6B9CD6C-B622-4B71-AC20-BC3508476128 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlrWWcMACgkQEhdRnd2G P+BWEQ//f247lDIaGQw7gx3Z2+tF86AuDH9sIW+HzQORPMeE9fZnV0NwlQHl6oyz EvjyEfNU0AER8NaGZiVHeldBkLeJBew0Sy2yj/MOsboAuiRLktGdL8t7LMdf4t+U ACw+G+jn2/kBMQFzpfzPopryfJhk1vqc9TllWwNsH5sRoqmtgk0Dpa4Lq4t/Nhhk CJLobwK5sXwXwqhh//pdG2zksi2t8S7LzJZHo4vO2wSqisepulldvGdRli6q9ExF cTJlimoDvCjwGECd3zaWXpXljClk1mT/+f7k2AXlp4/UYZFZqtquslFVtPFOcb/a 2n3TROXKlevoUAgB6XtWxyGfupJgpmUb596Y57TlwF/GA4spmmxkxJM8RTaUwiLy zFu/k6dei3GH80iv/TjaECiO9bS4icfqHzhzhTvmURxFdH7noDHd0nczk1Puvlxc I/eEzILDJ5SGaF1HqIuCKUVCEfDsqgy6gaW96u0EouRYbScApIrKE6kKQ09Je3U8 HNGt69sjDPsbnnK4ZWWdsgC3CyVMtG+6yQf5ZLGNuRiyi11n36NdQ5kArGt4snTA yWAdPh/3DDwDneJkztoMDT3VhmTBgzAyTPR/j4blHr9wCmXVRe9GkAPVHVG6lZaG 9my/mFCYpc/TqdlC2QLpslLDbHSvP3A19m2rOKI7sNJb2YYSWh4= =yjCl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C6B9CD6C-B622-4B71-AC20-BC3508476128-- From nobody Tue Apr 17 13:59:08 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9A382126DC2 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:59:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.61 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.61 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=helix-net-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Leioyr2hf9Pq for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x232.google.com (mail-it0-x232.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::232]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A4222120725 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:59:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x232.google.com with SMTP id r19-v6so17666160itc.0 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:59:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=helix-net-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZuW94u2Se4soWEctrrZzZg2+WRuLFwatrXvFNP/Yn2M=; b=B6bSheBgrvL+Vty0CCV5zy7+4RuU5unh7HPZoOQQkd/tXwqYAfrETbu36r13UXwHTT CL+dIYfCsDjjotjW7G1yTit93nkb8FcqbcpZz7CDR3E2iFYZvAyYrCvYfcXd0UfTRKiS fxdtUq/kmHDYT/YK1Cr26+tVcdAv0gD+r1J+yhMPWBZ+EnFB8SU2crFRd8hPd6Mxx1UW TtASRAb62CPFFoS7Ft+mukM3CZC+mucmhlZbiWaPDT1eO0xICER+2gzx7cDY65fm0PaR sCpNWHRdZHqLlErnxaXbBKUYSZMCyYnTSEbmTViQmmefGDZ1rU2T+/F+BF3dsP6QJL1B OHqw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZuW94u2Se4soWEctrrZzZg2+WRuLFwatrXvFNP/Yn2M=; b=HN0fF6LMd8Og1DGTcKIf9PzSoDefKIBW7xEuSX45yS6Vmy/6lp3fRT/FlSvjfKlMDi gM08YTG+zUXOU8WhsZyG9OW0ctvIv2td4RwjQXOVZiJvjzYSiObW2yWA+Im29niDK/V/ ZyX8nzhaDR8pzqz/tD5AT9H4qC2a25Ru4u25J3AlBHnrt+Cmq+oaktx1wCr4ZLXpB97A KV7RZagzfQu8pDih1u/Sj9VeIqm51/FwKUtrHm1aCQCIpEgxnd1mzLb4A2LYZOf4e9qP S8ABN/C7fGncamGwNTxOiZc3N5DfUJLO13Q5wa8N+DTQyT5lReaYrQh64f62yd4MC0eF 8lrw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tBSgwMVNLaB16wnzIqrgdK5Fmu+dbHK2UHTQuH+8yxqtP7cQAQc A6Rxc93BvZwvpBX7aW0KdMb2CYaU X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx480K2s115kzBDc0ovzLFyaI7u8A8rCeabGMKoLr5SaxNWadVw7sHGNwUr72jHAIQStNE6+2sQ== X-Received: by 2002:a24:6f8d:: with SMTP id x135-v6mr2948273itb.93.1523998742873; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-f53.google.com (mail-it0-f53.google.com. [209.85.214.53]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 22-v6sm6168021itj.16.2018.04.17.13.59.02 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:59:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-f53.google.com with SMTP id q85-v6so18052523itc.0 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:59:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a24:3d0d:: with SMTP id n13-v6mr2760275itn.81.1523998741822; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:59:01 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.47.137 with HTTP; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 13:58:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> From: Richard Patterson Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:58:41 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Cc: V6 Ops List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 20:59:07 -0000 Yes that's a fair assessment. I believe the current use of SHOULD for the transition technologies allows flexibility to those with the aforementioned concerns that would be OK with a limited sub-set, whilst still providing overall guidance to those wishing for complete compliance. Although does this also mean that it's possible for a CE to comply with this draft, yet not implement any method under =C2=A75.3? -Richard On 17 April 2018 at 21:32, Fred Baker wrote: > Let me ask an additional question. We have had at least one operator spea= k against adoption of this draft as a working group draft, because she does= n't want to add requirements to customer-edge (CE) routers, which potential= ly make them more complex and therefore expensive (every line of code costs= something and has some probability of containing a bug or attack). It soun= ds like you would support adoption of the draft if it contains the right se= t of features and doesn't contain anything else, and if (as it is currently= written) that it would be implemented in addition to RFC 7084. "The right = set of features", from your perspective, includes MAP-T. > > Is that a correct deduction? > >> On Apr 17, 2018, at 12:20 PM, Richard Patterson w= rote: >> >> Hi Fred, et al. >> >> Speaking as an Operator who is currently validating MAP-T as a >> solution, I'm in favour of making sure it itself is included in future >> versions of this draft. >> >> There are multiple vendors offering MAP-T Border Relays, and we've >> been testing both OpenWRT-based CPEs as well as a custom CPE based on >> the Broadcom BCM63138 SoC. >> The Broadcom reference SDK comes with the CERNET kernel module and >> userland tool, and supports hardware acceleration of MAP-T translated >> flows with Broadcom's Runner fastpath. >> >> I was also quite impressed with OpenWRT's implementation; aside from >> initially needing internet connectivity to install the map-t module >> after a fresh install, no further configuration is required to have >> the CPE dynamically configure itself with MAP-T, given the appropriate >> DHCPv6 options. Kudos to the OpenWRT/LEDE devs on their support. >> >> Re: the draft's =C2=A75.3.4. It's succinct enough, whilst still directi= ng >> implementors to the relevant RFCs, however I'm still mulling over the >> NAT44 and iptables/netfilter concerns that I raised in softwires a few >> months back.[1] The address-sharing mode's algorithm for port >> allocations, isn't easily implementable with the current >> iptables/netfilter behaviour. OpenWRT's approach creates rule >> shadowing and port ranges that never get utilised. >> >> -Richard >> >> >> [1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/softwires/current/msg06832.htm= l >> >> On 15 April 2018 at 06:00, Fred Baker wrote: >>> At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented draft-palet-v6ops-transitio= n-ipv4aas. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-tr= ansition-ipv4aas, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.ietf.= org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transition-requirements-for-ipv6= -ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00. >>> >>> I would like to invite discussion. >>> >>> In particular, this draft derives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, an= d the chairs wonder if it should be reposted as the next version of draft-i= etf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That should happen if an only if the working group t= hinks it should be published as an RFC (now or at some point) adding consid= erations for implementors of RFC 7084 and also implementing transition serv= ices. >>> >>> A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many transition= mechanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that opinion, if you c= ould give that advice, identify the mechanism or mechanisms you think shoul= d be listed, and indicate the reasoning behind your viewpoint. For example,= if you think MAP-T should be listed, it would be helpful to know what oper= ators are implementing MAP-T and are looking for CE Routers that support it= . The same comment applies to any such mechanism or service. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> > From nobody Tue Apr 17 14:17:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45DC012D9FF; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:17:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: warren@kumari.net, v6ops@ietf.org, v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.78.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152399983224.11495.16719885319513772357.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:17:12 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] v6ops - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 102 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:17:12 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Fred Baker, a Chair of the v6ops working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: IPv6 Operations Area Name: Operations and Management Area Session Requester: Fred Baker Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 150 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: dnsop grow intarea ipsecme mboned rtgwg ipwave Second Priority: idr Third Priority: 6lo 6man ccamp ippm mpls nvo3 sfc sidrops spring softwire sunset4 teas People who must be present: Fred Baker Ron Bonica Warren Kumari Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Apr 17 14:17:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3B79F12E03F; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:17:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: warren@kumari.net, v6ops@ietf.org, v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.78.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152399983823.11591.5431704650852744738.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:17:18 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] v6ops - New Meeting Session Request for IETF 102 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:17:22 -0000 A new meeting session request has just been submitted by Fred Baker, a Chair of the v6ops working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: IPv6 Operations Area Name: Operations and Management Area Session Requester: Fred Baker Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 150 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: dnsop grow intarea ipsecme mboned rtgwg ipwave Second Priority: idr Third Priority: 6lo 6man ccamp ippm mpls nvo3 sfc sidrops spring softwire sunset4 teas People who must be present: Fred Baker Ron Bonica Warren Kumari Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Apr 17 14:19:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8537D126D0C; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:19:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: warren@kumari.net, v6ops@ietf.org, v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.78.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152399998453.11511.10313164733163877928.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:19:44 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] v6ops - Update to a Meeting Session Request for IETF 102 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:19:44 -0000 An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Fred Baker, a Chair of the v6ops working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: IPv6 Operations Area Name: Operations and Management Area Session Requester: Fred Baker Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 150 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: ipwave rtgwg mboned ipsecme dnsop grow intarea Second Priority: suit tsvwg opsec idr Third Priority: teas sunset4 softwire spring sidrops sfc nvo3 mpls ippm ccamp 6man 6lo People who must be present: Fred Baker Ron Bonica Warren Kumari Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Apr 17 14:20:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietf.org Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from ietfa.amsl.com (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A1288126D0C; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:20:06 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: IETF Meeting Session Request Tool To: Cc: warren@kumari.net, v6ops@ietf.org, v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.78.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Message-ID: <152400000665.11539.5364198718420681598.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 14:20:06 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] v6ops - Update to a Meeting Session Request for IETF 102 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 21:20:07 -0000 An update to a meeting session request has just been submitted by Fred Baker, a Chair of the v6ops working group. --------------------------------------------------------- Working Group Name: IPv6 Operations Area Name: Operations and Management Area Session Requester: Fred Baker Number of Sessions: 2 Length of Session(s): 2 Hours, 2 Hours Number of Attendees: 150 Conflicts to Avoid: First Priority: ipwave rtgwg mboned ipsecme dnsop grow intarea Second Priority: suit tsvwg opsec idr Third Priority: teas sunset4 softwire spring sidrops sfc nvo3 mpls ippm ccamp 6man 6lo People who must be present: Fred Baker Ron Bonica Warren Kumari Resources Requested: Special Requests: --------------------------------------------------------- From nobody Tue Apr 17 16:01:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA452127010 for ; 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([2001:4f8:3:65:4936:94c8:4810:c990]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u5sm49218edi.79.2018.04.17.16.01.49 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 17 Apr 2018 16:01:50 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <92976D2F-3505-4AF3-A648-3BCD3998C763@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5D53C268-EB70-42FA-A036-6721C5396B57"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 16:01:46 -0700 In-Reply-To: Cc: V6 Ops List To: Richard Patterson References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 17 Apr 2018 23:01:56 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5D53C268-EB70-42FA-A036-6721C5396B57 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 17, 2018, at 1:58 PM, Richard Patterson = wrote: >=20 > Yes that's a fair assessment. >=20 > I believe the current use of SHOULD for the transition technologies > allows flexibility to those with the aforementioned concerns that > would be OK with a limited sub-set, whilst still providing overall > guidance to those wishing for complete compliance. > Although does this also mean that it's possible for a CE to comply > with this draft, yet not implement any method under =C2=A75.3? >=20 > -Richard You're correct. There is more than one way people use "SHOULD"; "MUST" = is a lot like its dictionary definition. I use "SHOULD" to mean "I'd = like to say 'MUST', but I think there is a case in which the implementer = might legitimately choose not to", which is pretty much what the RFC = says. What an implementer often does, though, is decide that "SHOULD" = makes something optional, and does only what MUST be done. That said, this kind of RFC is commenting on market requirements. In the = final analysis, each company or implementer has to determine what market = they are trying to address, and what its requirements are; they are = going to read this document, but it's one of many inputs they will = consider. If they are designing a product for the MAP-T market, they're = going to do what 5.3 says. If they are designing for ONLY the MAP-E = market (which basically differs from MAP-T in a subroutine call), they = could probably convince themselves to leave MAP-T out entirely. I tend = to think the document should be very explicit about claims of compliance = to it - something like "if an implementation claims compliance with this = document, it must implement every MUST, and either implement every = SHOULD or say which ones it does not implement, and why." "That feature = is in the next release, assuming of course someone offers to pay for its = development" is a common dodge from vendors, and needs to be explicitly = not OK. Of course, you've never heard a vendor say that. Neither have I. But I = have heard rumors... > On 17 April 2018 at 21:32, Fred Baker = wrote: >> Let me ask an additional question. We have had at least one operator = speak against adoption of this draft as a working group draft, because = she doesn't want to add requirements to customer-edge (CE) routers, = which potentially make them more complex and therefore expensive (every = line of code costs something and has some probability of containing a = bug or attack). It sounds like you would support adoption of the draft = if it contains the right set of features and doesn't contain anything = else, and if (as it is currently written) that it would be implemented = in addition to RFC 7084. "The right set of features", from your = perspective, includes MAP-T. >>=20 >> Is that a correct deduction? >>=20 >>> On Apr 17, 2018, at 12:20 PM, Richard Patterson = wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Fred, et al. >>>=20 >>> Speaking as an Operator who is currently validating MAP-T as a >>> solution, I'm in favour of making sure it itself is included in = future >>> versions of this draft. >>>=20 >>> There are multiple vendors offering MAP-T Border Relays, and we've >>> been testing both OpenWRT-based CPEs as well as a custom CPE based = on >>> the Broadcom BCM63138 SoC. >>> The Broadcom reference SDK comes with the CERNET kernel module and >>> userland tool, and supports hardware acceleration of MAP-T = translated >>> flows with Broadcom's Runner fastpath. >>>=20 >>> I was also quite impressed with OpenWRT's implementation; aside from >>> initially needing internet connectivity to install the map-t module >>> after a fresh install, no further configuration is required to have >>> the CPE dynamically configure itself with MAP-T, given the = appropriate >>> DHCPv6 options. Kudos to the OpenWRT/LEDE devs on their support. >>>=20 >>> Re: the draft's =C2=A75.3.4. It's succinct enough, whilst still = directing >>> implementors to the relevant RFCs, however I'm still mulling over = the >>> NAT44 and iptables/netfilter concerns that I raised in softwires a = few >>> months back.[1] The address-sharing mode's algorithm for port >>> allocations, isn't easily implementable with the current >>> iptables/netfilter behaviour. OpenWRT's approach creates rule >>> shadowing and port ranges that never get utilised. >>>=20 >>> -Richard >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> [1] = https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/softwires/current/msg06832.html >>>=20 >>> On 15 April 2018 at 06:00, Fred Baker = wrote: >>>> At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented = draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas. The draft is at = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas, and = his presentation deck is at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transi= tion-requirements-for-ipv6-ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00. >>>>=20 >>>> I would like to invite discussion. >>>>=20 >>>> In particular, this draft derives from = draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, and the chairs wonder if it should be = reposted as the next version of draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That = should happen if an only if the working group thinks it should be = published as an RFC (now or at some point) adding considerations for = implementors of RFC 7084 and also implementing transition services. >>>>=20 >>>> A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many = transition mechanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that = opinion, if you could give that advice, identify the mechanism or = mechanisms you think should be listed, and indicate the reasoning behind = your viewpoint. For example, if you think MAP-T should be listed, it = would be helpful to know what operators are implementing MAP-T and are = looking for CE Routers that support it. The same comment applies to any = such mechanism or service. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> v6ops mailing list >>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>>=20 >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_5D53C268-EB70-42FA-A036-6721C5396B57 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlrWfNoACgkQEhdRnd2G P+CNnQ//WfX56pKHUby6pz03Wo0fdQH5h28SENzDTETB6HlOqAbNiRmckQ4N8pmu OX0dpWExIm6IfF4hZpHD4RJAoSNCQdDZaOrCGc5K2m+FvTVgnHf+F+iTcmdp9or7 nX1Sy8q0WKP2VJottpwil/VyK4MAzGgEUYcwK+Ty6IGVl7TRywYpOEYTdRy5WylM f+xCtGUHOrYtXR2l+PXfkCx+m7QksrQTe4S/z/reU3vtV9fjZj2stY1Cntt/hJ1p lN+ymePeLfs+ip6gaAkU2H8gfoI5ZJM87QGR/4WPuJMkVJVEbu0/VtGPP6/1YD1E W11G01Kvlf3JJ3bQZsEcVN7oPwQGblH8OLpyMF9A5jQkSBL7bYXTBIcMSBaHQvc5 zahsvLpmdvcTdtUuSixoe/N8+0b+WMlbSKyWy20IZ6olaPQLWLEaN6pQfsP6k1gW 2YJHG5bXemGcpxe6eU0wW1db8Gs8jf7us19vARlz2qn2D5hQv5AUBk7t/j+ge3LU IPKsk5Y/ACetqqXD+XfBsvM4+NwlRgo55n2tblZfjDbee3ytaNQqOxvhafS5zSec ZufwyLNgjD/mmwOyjuRSdiZgrASX+2yjZ0D2d2DjroUZcq2NgeiVtEWdfy5daxtZ 1VQioFfqTEkRegpA5rbzilS/iIjJoZp3NEevjYTmS/EcJ/3tPEA= =Il9w -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_5D53C268-EB70-42FA-A036-6721C5396B57-- From nobody Tue Apr 17 23:49:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3279512D7F0 for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 23:49:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id zKJN0NcPBo-u for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 23:49:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDAD6126D3F for ; Tue, 17 Apr 2018 23:49:07 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524034146; x=1524638946; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=SCKhcW4m dl7hJEyH06Q/uZSNx4jymOtuHnAW47hsSAU=; b=kV2kbAX9L7xUb3zLJHQ3YV+q a0ZMTG/b55alegxZWITrLnuphj1iplD2PaTHGhPZLstOaOzJwjzRrUKASYS+b9kc MG4deQZi//axLmlJNu8UyVHX9J9aTTfWK6fnbeSLg21+kKG33rNVV3uhJEg1rkCd NBIrkY3bUfqxS2htyns= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 18 Apr 2018 08:49:06 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 18 Apr 2018 08:49:05 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005753270.msg for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 08:49:05 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:cdc8:d14:e508:efae X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 08:49:05 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1646e28c33=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 08:49:01 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <002986B1-DDCC-4D3A-8336-2E46480EEF45@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <92976D2F-3505-4AF3-A648-3BCD3998C763@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <92976D2F-3505-4AF3-A648-3BCD3998C763@gmail.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 06:49:11 -0000 Hi Fred, I'm happy to do that way in a new version. Maybe we should do that already as WG item, unless there are major objectio= ns for that? Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Fred Baker Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 18 de abril de 2018, 1:02 Para: Richard Patterson CC: V6 Ops List Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion =20 =20 > On Apr 17, 2018, at 1:58 PM, Richard Patterson = wrote: >=20 > Yes that's a fair assessment. >=20 > I believe the current use of SHOULD for the transition technologies > allows flexibility to those with the aforementioned concerns that > would be OK with a limited sub-set, whilst still providing overall > guidance to those wishing for complete compliance. > Although does this also mean that it's possible for a CE to comply > with this draft, yet not implement any method under =C2=A75.3? >=20 > -Richard =20 You're correct. There is more than one way people use "SHOULD"; "MUST" = is a lot like its dictionary definition. I use "SHOULD" to mean "I'd like t= o say 'MUST', but I think there is a case in which the implementer might le= gitimately choose not to", which is pretty much what the RFC says. What an = implementer often does, though, is decide that "SHOULD" makes something opt= ional, and does only what MUST be done. =20 That said, this kind of RFC is commenting on market requirements. In th= e final analysis, each company or implementer has to determine what market = they are trying to address, and what its requirements are; they are going t= o read this document, but it's one of many inputs they will consider. If th= ey are designing a product for the MAP-T market, they're going to do what 5= .3 says. If they are designing for ONLY the MAP-E market (which basically d= iffers from MAP-T in a subroutine call), they could probably convince thems= elves to leave MAP-T out entirely. I tend to think the document should be v= ery explicit about claims of compliance to it - something like "if an imple= mentation claims compliance with this document, it must implement every MUS= T, and either implement every SHOULD or say which ones it does not implemen= t, and why." "That feature is in the next release, assuming of course someo= ne offers to pay for its development" is a common dodge from vendors, and n= eeds to be explicitly not OK. =20 Of course, you've never heard a vendor say that. Neither have I. But I = have heard rumors... =20 > On 17 April 2018 at 21:32, Fred Baker wrot= e: >> Let me ask an additional question. We have had at least one operator= speak against adoption of this draft as a working group draft, because she= doesn't want to add requirements to customer-edge (CE) routers, which pote= ntially make them more complex and therefore expensive (every line of code = costs something and has some probability of containing a bug or attack). It= sounds like you would support adoption of the draft if it contains the rig= ht set of features and doesn't contain anything else, and if (as it is curr= ently written) that it would be implemented in addition to RFC 7084. "The r= ight set of features", from your perspective, includes MAP-T. >>=20 >> Is that a correct deduction? >>=20 >>> On Apr 17, 2018, at 12:20 PM, Richard Patterson wrote: >>>=20 >>> Hi Fred, et al. >>>=20 >>> Speaking as an Operator who is currently validating MAP-T as a >>> solution, I'm in favour of making sure it itself is included in fut= ure >>> versions of this draft. >>>=20 >>> There are multiple vendors offering MAP-T Border Relays, and we've >>> been testing both OpenWRT-based CPEs as well as a custom CPE based = on >>> the Broadcom BCM63138 SoC. >>> The Broadcom reference SDK comes with the CERNET kernel module and >>> userland tool, and supports hardware acceleration of MAP-T translat= ed >>> flows with Broadcom's Runner fastpath. >>>=20 >>> I was also quite impressed with OpenWRT's implementation; aside fro= m >>> initially needing internet connectivity to install the map-t module >>> after a fresh install, no further configuration is required to have >>> the CPE dynamically configure itself with MAP-T, given the appropri= ate >>> DHCPv6 options. Kudos to the OpenWRT/LEDE devs on their support. >>>=20 >>> Re: the draft's =C2=A75.3.4. It's succinct enough, whilst still di= recting >>> implementors to the relevant RFCs, however I'm still mulling over t= he >>> NAT44 and iptables/netfilter concerns that I raised in softwires a = few >>> months back.[1] The address-sharing mode's algorithm for port >>> allocations, isn't easily implementable with the current >>> iptables/netfilter behaviour. OpenWRT's approach creates rule >>> shadowing and port ranges that never get utilised. >>>=20 >>> -Richard >>>=20 >>>=20 >>> [1] https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/softwires/current/msg0683= 2.html >>>=20 >>> On 15 April 2018 at 06:00, Fred Baker wr= ote: >>>> At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented draft-palet-v6ops-tran= sition-ipv4aas. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6o= ps-transition-ipv4aas, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.= ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transition-requirements-for= -ipv6-ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00. >>>>=20 >>>> I would like to invite discussion. >>>>=20 >>>> In particular, this draft derives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bi= s, and the chairs wonder if it should be reposted as the next version of dr= aft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That should happen if an only if the working gr= oup thinks it should be published as an RFC (now or at some point) adding c= onsiderations for implementors of RFC 7084 and also implementing transition= services. >>>>=20 >>>> A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many trans= ition mechanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that opinion, if = you could give that advice, identify the mechanism or mechanisms you think = should be listed, and indicate the reasoning behind your viewpoint. For exa= mple, if you think MAP-T should be listed, it would be helpful to know what= operators are implementing MAP-T and are looking for CE Routers that suppo= rt it. The same comment applies to any such mechanism or service. >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> v6ops mailing list >>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>>=20 >>=20 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. 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Wed, 18 Apr 2018 08:15:29 -0700 Received: from SN6PR05MB4240.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.67.146) by SN6PR05MB4494.namprd05.prod.outlook.com (52.135.74.147) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_CBC_SHA384) id 15.20.696.8; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:15:27 +0000 Received: from SN6PR05MB4240.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::59a2:13ab:6110:35af]) by SN6PR05MB4240.namprd05.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::59a2:13ab:6110:35af%13]) with mapi id 15.20.0696.011; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:15:27 +0000 From: Ron Bonica To: "furry@google.com" , "mstucchi@ripe.net" , V6 Ops List , Fred Baker CC: Russ White Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-03 Thread-Index: AdPXJ2BedF/yuF7kQ0ieaY52vj9gYg== Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:15:27 +0000 Message-ID: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: google.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;google.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=juniper.net; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 34e089d6-7fee-4be0-7257-08d5a53f3771 X-OriginatorOrg: juniper.net X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 34e089d6-7fee-4be0-7257-08d5a53f3771 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 18 Apr 2018 15:15:27.3716 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: bea78b3c-4cdb-4130-854a-1d193232e5f4 X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR05MB4494 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-04-18_03:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_spam_notspam policy=outbound_spam score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=450 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804180137 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:15:35 -0000 Jen, Massimiliano, Draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-03 has passed WG Last call and Russ White = has provided a Shepherd's write-up. Please respond to this email informing the group of either: a) That you are not aware of any IPR against this draft. or b) That IPR of which you are aware has been declared to the IETF As soon as I receive responses from both of you, Fred and I will forward th= e draft to the IESG for publication. = Fred & Ron From nobody Wed Apr 18 10:08:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0320712D864 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 10:08:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -6.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-6.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_HI=-5] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id G6anI9b4MapR for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 10:08:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from molamola.ripe.net (molamola.ripe.net [IPv6:2001:67c:2e8:11::c100:1371]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EFC401275AB for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 10:08:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from titi.ripe.net ([193.0.23.11]) by molamola.ripe.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1f8qYv-00086V-OE; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 19:08:05 +0200 Received: from sslvpn.ripe.net ([193.0.20.230] helo=laptop-2000255.local) by titi.ripe.net with esmtps (TLSv1.2:ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256:128) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1f8qYu-0006nS-S5; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 19:08:05 +0200 Reply-To: mstucchi@ripe.net To: Ron Bonica , "furry@google.com" , V6 Ops List , Fred Baker Cc: Russ White References: From: Massimiliano Stucchi Openpgp: preference=signencrypt Autocrypt: addr=mstucchi@ripe.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsBNBFHAZMUBCAC8OXml+6x4axGY1KkOMBXifaKieQRb7enQ/SbcVJ94vuAMkk83pwiEnOkf WcXooUIe67vFFPMnlmrv+1rlgkcBa4f+0URngl6b3a5oPQEwuII3+/T1hceBlL71Ifyr0QQq LY7J0N5nVkQjue+Wqr+03D1r8qPvs6IOyRHfkxF93lzgrnfsRD6Lqmmis++UOluJEBPie03Y o4URJTRc/nisnhuq9lzv/m/QPzAO/l2rTy4/9P6hCG3cgVuuQmVq0WGtERpShkdWDgHR9GUH ZnNmEicDalMjVw+/PuNtF8POqd24BD+86XbTI22yMHhLnyOTj7xzPrm0G2mDR0ujMGh9ABEB AAHNKE1hc3NpbWlsaWFubyBTdHVjY2hpIDxtc3R1Y2NoaUByaXBlLm5ldD7CwH8EEwEKACkC GyMHCwkIBwMCAQYVCAIJCgsEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCVrRqmwUJDSrOTwAKCRDPJ0ZedUG65Rsi B/9VTImPutO5XpoWcWmoiiZZQNH3xsqfuF3Gv7OiKT925LQHcVVl4elhp2QOJH0ioWjyM3hj K0FR4ZJRsvxt3iGHHUY+hVgBKkvVg6jSlG0iKZQG4hAnxASVWms+YQdQSYdZrvctsvHnJ2SW 63AzufahYVwVygDpQS6nupcYBXakg8ZcKg7Tpdf0ZCU/rFO5rGytqy+SJYPBGWpTUOHOX2vI XIy5fis7PdHpzfQCdd77yKcjLB/0JMl+w0Wx2ADbUc9oJG+RqD/YMDnjUXC3k3DSRM+nn720 tP13iN+bFdDgzVxosnVf2XBTg/6aPGGL1D7XrJDgo36OJdh2XkJ13OlJzsBNBFHAZMUBCAC1 TdZOgucejaJ30+qomyFtW/2eAoPon3Yh9odjGtZgdn/LvNuo5MzSrK6S0fSOs9r4jfVdLvuq lcVtH+pVxMNJ/wNXJmbid4kAL8OEKp3Sq25PODRSXooNJot+gSbpS+xFLtj3qJknG/072ZiV cDkzJJcjH9qDm3DGuQU/wVhgedZroGMemQKl7ypcCADnIo1BoyXXfKCSiAksGmBrJS0Z3WRv OSC56As7H+kgQAFKuEp4aQ4WeqqKSZg3pBr6w8nu1p7kzC7U57gV5xg3PPqahDlKZ2irmEbI 8Ji9wRX0MNo+WPhOIQm0xnV4o2iHGDWzlJnO1cxVaUhxro01/e6pABEBAAHCwGUEGAECAA8F AlHAZMUCGwwFCQlmAYAACgkQzydGXnVBuuWzjAf/TyxZBlW50LXjxyKYuCyENW+i+AZDu/js WbFu7JJ9nV7teSTWaH/z4fTDHhVHHUWCyRil0upGRvbFmtzbLWLMiacPaGSGzhQAcZI0MIBY Y/AJaCC6HHackPMtMKXYmRI3WPAxBcTe77eiMz50l42m+DyuO5zMww/mw/+4AfSt11TH6JaU GuzUUXYATg/ARSkhRz0Cn7jYRVLgrJ9UXUYAIiJIKAVMvYMyIeKNvypJDf6Ll7eKdVU+mwz3 +4w4Tk4DXfI1LXgHPY3Yke4SIR+gqHz5EY13tpfOa9OEjYPNuGk2ko+GcwMrsO/hQWPyV/tL 3Xt4Eb3O9TkFFLUNzcv85cLAZQQYAQoADwIbDAUCWMf0BgUJC0iGQQAKCRDPJ0ZedUG65XCE B/0etPSUzySmCF4JYorDGhafsCLTeN4J150oEIwme/Te7esPVZRbp7fG2pqnMb4uexgQqxDv iDKjfXTMGcSUfy0sMj+qIZZ20cUF87eGKEoWl9BMHUdmVPPtPkPHKEWbctdQP1cn62jbLukl BzmPCFYwMzRgmYwvNibNPQOsaFhQ8dRavKXwdjK4gbGutUb4asB0woZeTESgkGw8YyuMpTy3 2V+6Lcn0SK0BPdSvOHkRDBG9Y9JuUJkHc5UGjkGqEmYQ2Vy9nqWEo7M8ezZ/ksPQd+g/0mIj PMnIczHRKt4pEy9BuyUbqtC1JJOaWf4FYnJnyildE5aQa4Pcg9rNB2WK Organization: RIPE NCC Message-ID: <4e83f93a-2125-ca2c-7479-9e439d91f463@ripe.net> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 22:07:57 +0500 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Macintosh; Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="BopIieXMzZOiit204HwIfkQwqhUEGQG6C" X-ACL-Warn: Delaying message X-RIPE-Signature: 01632fa2bb38c1bfd9b457f34e1e9d0c53be051a92f88458b543cf9e15531ce8 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 17:08:11 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --BopIieXMzZOiit204HwIfkQwqhUEGQG6C Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="pKKtNXoiCitX4Sna5PhR2Xyp8qpCl2UCZ"; protected-headers="v1" From: Massimiliano Stucchi Reply-To: mstucchi@ripe.net To: Ron Bonica , "furry@google.com" , V6 Ops List , Fred Baker Cc: Russ White Message-ID: <4e83f93a-2125-ca2c-7479-9e439d91f463@ripe.net> Subject: Re: draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-03 References: In-Reply-To: --pKKtNXoiCitX4Sna5PhR2Xyp8qpCl2UCZ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-GB Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Ron, On 18/04/2018 20:15, Ron Bonica wrote: > Draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-03 has passed WG Last call and Russ Wh= ite has provided a Shepherd's write-up. >=20 > Please respond to this email informing the group of either: >=20 > a) That you are not aware of any IPR against this draft. or > b) That IPR of which you are aware has been declared to the IETF >=20 > As soon as I receive responses from both of you, Fred and I will forwar= d the draft to the IESG for publication. I'm not aware of any IPR against this draft. Ciao! --=20 Massimiliano Stucchi IPv6 Programme Manager RIPE NCC mstucchi@ripe.net Follow us on Twitter for the fastest and latest RIPE NCC Training news! @TrainingRIPENCC --pKKtNXoiCitX4Sna5PhR2Xyp8qpCl2UCZ-- --BopIieXMzZOiit204HwIfkQwqhUEGQG6C Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEEG4RERrpEQHEGlNwEzydGXnVBuuUFAlrXe20ACgkQzydGXnVB uuUZkwf/R3DS1LZWRpybk0q3mmp50WmuPVDOqFbb+JeimpgPIF+jw38Nx+iSztrK lJR23GUQXyFZNZskfxWhUWIK5/cQNaTvmSzejRnNzN1Ts5DD3Qmn6RmHznK/OBJC gcg5Py2IIHjba5XSJjIiPsYaVkW71rzwK3zJY3D63Y8FfsuuAeDvV4OAY3ektuPE HtSLU681FUB2KwMWz1TVuMN6BuoHtdGF2jqjM4IFsOvSTZB4Kj9fB18ytZpXCOLB AWu2OG7SqgIRyBbxyQv8sf5r0Uw4OsMvhaiwx8uAUqHlyFow/JjoSroxb9vuE2k5 Cb1gLY2w+2vktxVhM7w6F0Z6o4QfSQ== =GNKA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --BopIieXMzZOiit204HwIfkQwqhUEGQG6C-- From nobody Wed Apr 18 11:17:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 521511200FC for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 11:17:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.234 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.234 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 7mDobuVuQ_6U for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 11:17:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob15.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob15.registeredsite.com [209.17.115.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D0E6F1242F5 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 11:17:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com (atl4qobmail01pod6.registeredsite.com [10.30.71.209]) by atl4mhob15.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w3IIHWZ4024196 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 14:17:32 -0400 Received: (qmail 31223 invoked by uid 0); 18 Apr 2018 18:17:32 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 174.64.33.182 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.100?) (lee@asgard.org@174.64.33.182) by 0 with ESMTPA; 18 Apr 2018 18:17:32 -0000 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> From: Lee Howard Message-ID: <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 14:17:31 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------F6ED387542371A567D29E323" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 18:17:40 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------F6ED387542371A567D29E323 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I think this document is needed. When ISPs buy equipment for customers, they can specify which set of features they want. When customers buy their own equipment, they can choose from whatever is on the shelf. In order to effect a transition to IPv6, customer edge routers will need to support transition mechanisms. Since a CE router manufacturer can't know which transition mechanism will be used by any/all ISPs in the market where it will need to be sold, they will need to support the most likely mechanisms. So, this document specifies behavior for retail-marketed devices, not buyer-specified devices. If an ISP wants fewer features to save cost or for security, she may specify that. It means that CE router is less likely to work if the consumer takes it to a competitor ISP, but I can live with that. Comments on the document: Introduction, Paragraph 3: It's a run-on sentence that makes the features sound unnecessary until there is an IPv6-only network in place. Since CE routers have a lifetime of 7-15 years, I think that's too late. Suggest rewording it to: This document covers the IP transition technologies required when ISPs have an IPv6-only access network. This is a common situation in a world where IPv4 addresses are no longer available, so the service providers need to provision IPv6-only WAN access. At the same time, they need to ensure that both IPv4-only and IPv6-only devices or applications in the customer networks, can still reach IPv4-only devices or applications in the Internet. Paragraph 7: Based on my comments above, I would like to reword this paragraph to: Service providers who specify feature sets for CE routers may specify a different set of features than those included in this document. Since it is impossible to know prior to sale which transition mechanism a device will need over the lifetime of the device, IPv6 CE transition routers intended for the retail market must support all of them. I agree with the note in 1.1 Requirements Language, but almost glossed over it because it looks at first like RFC2119 boilerplate. Maybe revise the heading to "Requirements Language - Special Note"? Also, "preferable" should be "preferably." I'm using the same language in comments that you do in the document, but "IPv6 transition Customer Edge Router with IPv4aaS" is long, and even the shortened version is cumbersome. Can we revise the terminology to say that "CE Router" used in this document means "a Customer Edge router with support for IPv6 transition mechanisms," unless specified as "a CE Router without transition mechanism support"? Also, need to expand the acronym "IPv4aaS" and define it. 3. Usage Scenarios I'm not sure this section is needed; I think you've successfully made this argument earlier in the document, and I think anyone with even a faint familiarity with the transition understand the points being made here. If you disagree and want to keep it: Paragraph 1 nit:  "situation before described" -> "situation previously described" or "situation described above". Paragraph 2 nit: "may be" -> "it may be that" "customer churn. . . " would read better as: consumers may switch ISPs and use the same CE router with an ISP that provides IPv4-only and an ISP that provides IPv6 plus IPv4aaS. Paragraph 3 nit: "it is required an IPv6 transition CE" -> "an IPv6 transition CE is required that" "accommodating to" -> "accommodate" Remove "as it may be or not provided by the service provider" I'd remove the sentence "Even may be a point..." Not only is it grammatically impenetrable, increasing competition isn't a goal of this document (or of the IETF, or operators, or CE vendors). The "Moreover" paragraph: Moreover, because some services will remain IPv4-only for an undetermined time, and some service providers will remain IPv4-only for an undetermined period of time, IPv4 will be needed for an undetermined period of time. There will be a need for CEs with support "IPv4 as a Service" for an undetermined period of time. As I said above, I don't think the numbered list is needed, especially when four of them are the same, and two others are the same. I don't know what "exporting services to the WAN" means. Does this just mean "allowing inbound connections"? The "The main difference" paragraph seems to say that, but it doesn't quite. I think if you're going to sidestep the issue of allowing inbound connections, you need to be much more explicit about it. For instance:    An IPv6 transition CE might allow inbound connections over IPv6,    with appropriate firewall rules and DNS entries. Several IPv4aaS    implementations do not allow for port forwarding to CE routers,    and the configuration and troubleshooting of port forwarding may    be complicated. The "For example" paragraph adds no clarity. The number of users has no bearing on the functionality, at least as far as you've described. Second-to-last paragraph: "aspects" should be "features" I'd rewrite the sentence "In fact, in many cases" to: In fact, in many cases, the user must supply or may replace  the IPv6 Transition CE router; this makes even more relevant that all the IPv6 Transition CE routers support the same requirements defined in this document. Last paragraph of Section 3: "may have" -> "they may have" Section 4. End-User Network Architecture "precedent" -> "preceding" "behind it" -> "upstream" 4th paragraph: "the latest" -> "that" Although I'm not sure why PCP isn't part of the sentence with UPnP-IGD, and from the previous section, I thought you weren't going to discuss this. The "Another consequence" paragraph seems to say that IPv4+NAT is a feature for address stability, but then falls silent on address stability in IPv6. I know you don't want to say ULA (and I don't want to make it a target for Lorenzo), but if you're going to say anything, you have to be honest about it. "Many existing routers support dynamic routing."  What? Consumer Edge routers? That is not my experience at all, and if it were common, we could have avoided two years of fighting in Homenet. In the requirements section, I would like to see every instance of an RFC number accompanied by the title of that RFC. It helps with context. Plus, every requirement needs text explaining why it is a requirement. Sections 5.1 and 5.2 do neither of those. The first two sentences of 5.3 Transition Technologies Support... are broken up poorly. Suggest: The main target of this document is the support of IPv6-only WAN access. To enable legacy IPv4 functionality, this document also includes the support of IPv4-only devices and applications in the customers LANs, as well as IPv4-only services on the Internet. Thus, both IPv4-only and the IPv6-only devices inside the CE are able to reach the IPv4-only services. It makes me wonder that we don't need a solution for IPv4-only devices to reach IPv6-only services/content on the Internet. I suppose the market means that's not required, and frankly I'm satisfied with EOLing IPv4-only devices as content moves to IPv4-meh. We could in theory include CLAT by itself? I don't think IPv6 "Service Continuity" should be capitalized. 464XLAT-1 unless there is a match with a valid OPTION_S46_PRIORITY Shouldn't the CE Router process those options in order, and once one works, stop? Wouldn't it be clearer to say it that was in TRANS-1, and not have to repeat it later? 464XLAT-3 In environments with PCP support How do you know if there's PCP support? Section 5.3.2 says "If DS-Lite is implemented, lw4o6 MUST be supported as well." Why? I like sections 7 Code Considerations and 8 Security Considerations. You might mention the Security Considerations sections of each of the transition mechanism RFCs, too. I would be in favor of removing the 6rd requirement implied by RFC7048. If anyone is planning 6rd deployments, I'd be very surprised. Lee On 04/15/2018 01:00 AM, Fred Baker wrote: > At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transition-requirements-for-ipv6-ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00. > > I would like to invite discussion. > > In particular, this draft derives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, and the chairs wonder if it should be reposted as the next version of draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That should happen if an only if the working group thinks it should be published as an RFC (now or at some point) adding considerations for implementors of RFC 7084 and also implementing transition services. > > A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many transition mechanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that opinion, if you could give that advice, identify the mechanism or mechanisms you think should be listed, and indicate the reasoning behind your viewpoint. For example, if you think MAP-T should be listed, it would be helpful to know what operators are implementing MAP-T and are looking for CE Routers that support it. The same comment applies to any such mechanism or service. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --------------F6ED387542371A567D29E323 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit

I think this document is needed.

When ISPs buy equipment for customers, they can specify which set of features they want.

When customers buy their own equipment, they can choose from whatever is on the shelf.

In order to effect a transition to IPv6, customer edge routers will need to support transition mechanisms. Since a CE router manufacturer can't know which transition mechanism will be used by any/all ISPs in the market where it will need to be sold, they will need to support the most likely mechanisms.

So, this document specifies behavior for retail-marketed devices, not buyer-specified devices. If an ISP wants fewer features to save cost or for security, she may specify that. It means that CE router is less likely to work if the consumer takes it to a competitor ISP, but I can live with that.

Comments on the document:

Introduction, Paragraph 3:

It's a run-on sentence that makes the features sound unnecessary until there is an IPv6-only network in place. Since CE routers have a lifetime of 7-15 years, I think that's too late. Suggest rewording it to:

This document covers the IP transition technologies required when
   ISPs have an IPv6-only access network. This is a
   common situation in a world where IPv4 addresses are no longer
   available, so the service providers need to provision IPv6-only WAN
   access. At the same time, they need to ensure that both IPv4-only and
   IPv6-only devices or applications in the customer networks, can still
   reach IPv4-only devices or applications in the Internet.
Paragraph 7:
Based on my comments above, I would like to reword this paragraph to:

   Service providers who specify feature sets for CE routers may specify
   a different set of features than those included in this document. 
   Since it is impossible to know prior to sale which transition 
   mechanism a device will need over the lifetime of the device, IPv6 CE 
   transition routers intended for the retail market must support all 
   of them.

I agree with the note in 1.1 Requirements Language, but almost glossed over it because it looks at first like RFC2119 boilerplate. Maybe revise the heading to "Requirements Language - Special Note"? Also, "preferable" should be "preferably."

I'm using the same language in comments that you do in the document, but "IPv6 transition Customer Edge Router with IPv4aaS" is long, and even the shortened version is cumbersome. Can we revise the terminology to say that "CE Router" used in this document means "a Customer Edge router with support for IPv6 transition mechanisms," unless specified as "a CE Router without transition mechanism support"? Also, need to expand the acronym "IPv4aaS" and define it.

3. Usage Scenarios
I'm not sure this section is needed; I think you've successfully made this argument earlier in the document, and I think anyone with even a faint familiarity with the transition understand the points being made here. If you disagree and want to keep it:

Paragraph 1 nit:  "situation before described" -> "situation previously described" or "situation described above".

Paragraph 2 nit: "may be" -> "it may be that"

"customer churn. . . " would read better as:
   consumers may switch ISPs and use the same CE router with an ISP that
   provides IPv4-only and an ISP that provides IPv6 plus IPv4aaS.

Paragraph 3 nit: "it is required an IPv6 transition CE" -> "an IPv6 transition CE is required that"

"accommodating to" -> "accommodate"

Remove "as it may be or not provided by the service provider"

I'd remove the sentence "Even may be a point..." Not only is it grammatically impenetrable, increasing competition isn't a goal of this document (or of the IETF, or operators, or CE vendors).

The "Moreover" paragraph:
   Moreover, because some services will remain IPv4-only for an
   undetermined time, and some service providers will remain IPv4-only 
   for an undetermined period of time, IPv4 will be needed for an 
   undetermined period of time. There will be a need for CEs 
   with support "IPv4 as a Service" for an undetermined period of time.

As I said above, I don't think the numbered list is needed, especially when four of them are the same, and two others are the same. I don't know what "exporting services to the WAN" means. Does this just mean "allowing inbound connections"?

The "The main difference" paragraph seems to say that, but it doesn't quite. I think if you're going to sidestep the issue of allowing inbound connections, you need to be much more explicit about it. For instance:

   An IPv6 transition CE might allow inbound connections over IPv6,
   with appropriate firewall rules and DNS entries. Several IPv4aaS
   implementations do not allow for port forwarding to CE routers,
   and the configuration and troubleshooting of port forwarding may
   be complicated.


The "For example" paragraph adds no clarity. The number of users has no bearing on the functionality, at least as far as you've described.

Second-to-last paragraph: "aspects" should be "features"

I'd rewrite the sentence "In fact, in many cases" to:
   In fact, in many cases, the user must supply or may replace
   the IPv6 Transition CE router; this makes even more
   relevant that all the IPv6 Transition CE routers support the same
   requirements defined in this document.

Last paragraph of Section 3: "may have" -> "they may have"

Section 4. End-User Network Architecture
"precedent" -> "preceding"

"behind it" -> "upstream"

4th paragraph: "the latest" -> "that"
Although I'm not sure why PCP isn't part of the sentence with UPnP-IGD, and from the previous section, I thought you weren't going to discuss this.

The "Another consequence" paragraph seems to say that IPv4+NAT is a feature for address stability, but then falls silent on address stability in IPv6. I know you don't want to say ULA (and I don't want to make it a target for Lorenzo), but if you're going to say anything, you have to be honest about it.

"Many existing routers support dynamic routing."  What? Consumer Edge routers? That is not my experience at all, and if it were common, we could have avoided two years of fighting in Homenet.

In the requirements section, I would like to see every instance of an RFC number accompanied by the title of that RFC. It helps with context. Plus, every requirement needs text explaining why it is a requirement. Sections 5.1 and 5.2 do neither of those.

The first two sentences of 5.3 Transition Technologies Support... are broken up poorly. Suggest:
   The main target of this document is the support of IPv6-only WAN
   access. To enable legacy IPv4 functionality, this document also
   includes the support of IPv4-only devices and
   applications in the customers LANs, as well as IPv4-only services
   on the Internet. Thus, both IPv4-only and the IPv6-only devices 
   inside the CE are able to reach the IPv4-only services.

It makes me wonder that we don't need a solution for IPv4-only devices to reach IPv6-only services/content on the Internet. I suppose the market means that's not required, and frankly I'm satisfied with EOLing IPv4-only devices as content moves to IPv4-meh. We could in theory include CLAT by itself?

I don't think IPv6 "Service Continuity" should be capitalized.

464XLAT-1  
unless there is a match with a valid
               OPTION_S46_PRIORITY
Shouldn't the CE Router process those options in order, and once one works, stop? Wouldn't it be clearer to say it that was in TRANS-1, and not have to repeat it later?

464XLAT-3 
In environments with PCP support
How do you know if there's PCP support?

Section 5.3.2 says "If DS-Lite is implemented, lw4o6 MUST be supported as well." Why?

I like sections 7 Code Considerations and 8 Security Considerations. You might mention the Security Considerations sections of each of the transition mechanism RFCs, too.
 
I would be in favor of removing the 6rd requirement implied by RFC7048. If anyone is planning 6rd deployments, I'd be very surprised.

Lee



On 04/15/2018 01:00 AM, Fred Baker wrote:
At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transition-requirements-for-ipv6-ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00.

I would like to invite discussion.

In particular, this draft derives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, and the chairs wonder if it should be reposted as the next version of draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That should happen if an only if the working group thinks it should be published as an RFC (now or at some point) adding considerations for implementors of RFC 7084 and also implementing transition services.

A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many transition mechanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that opinion, if you could give that advice, identify the mechanism or mechanisms you think should be listed, and indicate the reasoning behind your viewpoint. For example, if you think MAP-T should be listed, it would be helpful to know what operators are implementing MAP-T and are looking for CE Routers that support it. The same comment applies to any such mechanism or service.





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--------------F6ED387542371A567D29E323-- From nobody Wed Apr 18 12:34:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 97D19126C26 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 12:34:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id voCYUeSRTzUh for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 12:34:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0DD2A12426E for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 12:34:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524080072; x=1524684872; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type; bh=puKPFw5fzQTAoUqMs9Kt8v1t+Hjxgckqqh IQxNtzKS4=; b=p0RUrbZ/SnBNPWGViDhICmHHQE/NUJzVraexPZy3LYi+16ODsf MYgzzCMlk5k+lGazE+XuR3GQGyx5K4WaBv8Gk+1ahFHR6kV+xHRU/Xjjdvt4OtRt lBwy3VTCQmaIxHTZxx2AU93hAR6OXjfNXqvYadY0fctb5RO7UI4erW1GU= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:34:32 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:34:30 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005753683.msg for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:34:30 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:83a:88c2:f3cb:41dc X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:34:30 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1646e28c33=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:34:26 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: <0E1B8753-34F9-47DC-8CAD-93A0CF81BAB3@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> In-Reply-To: <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: multipart/alternative; boundary="B_3606932066_2102291200" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 19:34:39 -0000 > This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --B_3606932066_2102291200 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Lee, =20 Thanks a lot for your comments. =20 I will review them in detail in a couple of days, in case there are other i= nputs, so we can work out a new version and hopefully publish already as WG= item. =20 Anyway, I=E2=80=99ve read all them and I think I agree in most of them. =20 I=E2=80=99ve now only a few quick comments/question, in order to help with = a good review of our actual text: I think this document is also for small and medium ISPs, only big ones have= the power to specify the set of features they need. Not sure if your secon= d sentence disagree with that. 1.1 was taken from RFC7084. Do you think it will be better to use the stand= ard RFC2119 boilerplate? I think the usage scenarios is important to readers that may be don=E2=80= =99t have a clear view on what is the CE we are talking about, and in fact = it was requested in one of the previous v6ops presentations. Anyway, I will= try to make it more =E2=80=9Ccompressed=E2=80=9D. The =E2=80=9Cdynamic routing=E2=80=9D comes from the original rfc7084, whic= h turned into the rfc7084-bis. I will check that from all my version histor= y on this document =E2=80=A6 and clarify or delete it. I=E2=80=99m not 100% sure to understand your comment on the CLAT. I think o= ne of the keys is to allow deploying IPv6-only access while users still can= use devices in their LANs until they have incentives to replace them, othe= rwise, customers will complain when they get IPv6-only services (if using C= LAT it is transparent for them). CLAT can provide a NAT46, but then we need= a also DNS46 ? If I got you correctly, it is good that there is an incenti= ve for replacing IPv4-only devices because at some point there may be IPv6-= only services =E2=80=A6 so I think we should not make any new transition me= chanism to solve that problem? I think you mean =E2=80=9CIPv4 service continuity=E2=80=9D (not capitalized= ) Regarding 6rd, you mean this document should update RFC7084 and remove 6rd = requirements? I will agree on that =E2=80=A6 =20 Thanks! Regards, Jordi =20 =20 De: v6ops en nombre de Lee Howard Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 18 de abril de 2018, 20:18 Para: Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion =20 I think this document is needed. When ISPs buy equipment for customers, they can specify which set of featur= es they want. When customers buy their own equipment, they can choose from whatever is on= the shelf. In order to effect a transition to IPv6, customer edge routers will need to= support transition mechanisms. Since a CE router manufacturer can't know w= hich transition mechanism will be used by any/all ISPs in the market where = it will need to be sold, they will need to support the most likely mechanis= ms. So, this document specifies behavior for retail-marketed devices, not buyer= -specified devices. If an ISP wants fewer features to save cost or for secu= rity, she may specify that. It means that CE router is less likely to work = if the consumer takes it to a competitor ISP, but I can live with that. Comments on the document: Introduction, Paragraph 3: It's a run-on sentence that makes the features sound unnecessary until ther= e is an IPv6-only network in place. Since CE routers have a lifetime of 7-1= 5 years, I think that's too late. Suggest rewording it to: This document covers the IP transition technologies required when =C2=A0=C2=A0 ISPs have an IPv6-only access network. This is a =C2=A0=C2=A0 common situation in a world where IPv4 addresses are no longer =C2=A0=C2=A0 available, so the service providers need to provision IPv6-onl= y WAN =C2=A0=C2=A0 access. At the same time, they need to ensure that both IPv4-o= nly and =C2=A0=C2=A0 IPv6-only devices or applications in the customer networks, ca= n still =C2=A0=C2=A0 reach IPv4-only devices or applications in the Internet. =20 Paragraph 7: Based on my comments above, I would like to reword this paragraph to: =C2=A0=C2=A0 Service providers who specify feature sets for CE routers may = specify =C2=A0=C2=A0 a different set of features than those included in this docume= nt.=20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Since it is impossible to know prior to sale which transi= tion=20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0mechanism a device will need over the lifetime of the dev= ice, IPv6 CE=20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0transition routers intended for the retail market must su= pport all=20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of them. I agree with the note in 1.1 Requirements Language, but almost glossed over= it because it looks at first like RFC2119 boilerplate. Maybe revise the he= ading to "Requirements Language - Special Note"? Also, "preferable" should = be "preferably." I'm using the same language in comments that you do in the document, but "I= Pv6 transition Customer Edge Router with IPv4aaS" is long, and even the sho= rtened version is cumbersome. Can we revise the terminology to say that "CE= Router" used in this document means "a Customer Edge router with support f= or IPv6 transition mechanisms," unless specified as "a CE Router without tr= ansition mechanism support"? Also, need to expand the acronym "IPv4aaS" and= define it. 3. Usage Scenarios I'm not sure this section is needed; I think you've successfully made this = argument earlier in the document, and I think anyone with even a faint fami= liarity with the transition understand the points being made here. If you d= isagree and want to keep it: Paragraph 1 nit: "situation before described" -> "situation previously des= cribed" or "situation described above". Paragraph 2 nit: "may be" -> "it may be that" "customer churn. . . " would read better as: =C2=A0=C2=A0 consumers may switch ISPs and use the same CE router with an I= SP that =C2=A0=C2=A0 provides IPv4-only and an ISP that provides IPv6 plus IPv4aaS.= =20 Paragraph 3 nit: "it is required an IPv6 transition CE" -> "an IPv6 transit= ion CE is required that" "accommodating to" -> "accommodate" Remove "as it may be or not provided by the service provider" I'd remove the sentence "Even may be a point..." Not only is it grammatical= ly impenetrable, increasing competition isn't a goal of this document (or o= f the IETF, or operators, or CE vendors). The "Moreover" paragraph: =C2=A0=C2=A0 Moreover, because some services will remain IPv4-only for an =C2=A0=C2=A0 undetermined time, and some service providers will remain IPv4= -only=20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0for an undetermined period of time, IPv4 will be needed f= or an=20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0undetermined period of time. There will be a need for CEs= =20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0with support "IPv4 as a Service" for an undetermined peri= od of time. As I said above, I don't think the numbered list is needed, especially when= four of them are the same, and two others are the same. I don't know what = "exporting services to the WAN" means. Does this just mean "allowing inboun= d connections"? The "The main difference" paragraph seems to say that, but it doesn't quite= . I think if you're going to sidestep the issue of allowing inbound connect= ions, you need to be much more explicit about it. For instance: An IPv6 transition CE might allow inbound connections over IPv6,=20 with appropriate firewall rules and DNS entries. Several IPv4aaS implementations do not allow for port forwarding to CE routers, and the configuration and troubleshooting of port forwarding may be complicated. The "For example" paragraph adds no clarity. The number of users has no bea= ring on the functionality, at least as far as you've described. Second-to-last paragraph: "aspects" should be "features" I'd rewrite the sentence "In fact, in many cases" to: =C2=A0=C2=A0 In fact, in many cases, the user must supply or may replace =C2=A0 the IPv6 Transition CE router; this makes even more =C2=A0=C2=A0 relevant that all the IPv6 Transition CE routers support the s= ame =C2=A0=C2=A0 requirements defined in this document. Last paragraph of Section 3: "may have" -> "they may have" Section 4. End-User Network Architecture "precedent" -> "preceding" "behind it" -> "upstream" 4th paragraph: "the latest" -> "that" Although I'm not sure why PCP isn't part of the sentence with UPnP-IGD, and= from the previous section, I thought you weren't going to discuss this. The "Another consequence" paragraph seems to say that IPv4+NAT is a feature= for address stability, but then falls silent on address stability in IPv6.= I know you don't want to say ULA (and I don't want to make it a target for= Lorenzo), but if you're going to say anything, you have to be honest about= it. "Many existing routers support dynamic routing." What? Consumer Edge route= rs? That is not my experience at all, and if it were common, we could have = avoided two years of fighting in Homenet.=20 In the requirements section, I would like to see every instance of an RFC n= umber accompanied by the title of that RFC. It helps with context. Plus, ev= ery requirement needs text explaining why it is a requirement. Sections 5.1= and 5.2 do neither of those. The first two sentences of 5.3 Transition Technologies Support... are broke= n up poorly. Suggest: =C2=A0=C2=A0 The main target of this document is the support of IPv6-only W= AN =C2=A0=C2=A0 access. To enable legacy IPv4 functionality, this document als= o =C2=A0=C2=A0 includes the support of IPv4-only devices and =C2=A0=C2=A0 applications in the customers LANs, as well as IPv4-only servi= ces =C2=A0=C2=A0 on the Internet. Thus, both IPv4-only and the IPv6-only device= s=20 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0inside the CE are able to reach the IPv4-only services. It makes me wonder that we don't need a solution for IPv4-only devices to r= each IPv6-only services/content on the Internet. I suppose the market means= that's not required, and frankly I'm satisfied with EOLing IPv4-only devic= es as content moves to IPv4-meh. We could in theory include CLAT by itself? I don't think IPv6 "Service Continuity" should be capitalized. 464XLAT-1 =20 unless there is a match with a valid =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2= =A0=C2=A0 OPTION_S46_PRIORITY Shouldn't the CE Router process those options in order, and once one works,= stop? Wouldn't it be clearer to say it that was in TRANS-1, and not have t= o repeat it later? 464XLAT-3=20 In environments with PCP support How do you know if there's PCP support? Section 5.3.2 says "If DS-Lite is implemented, lw4o6 MUST be supported as w= ell." Why? I like sections 7 Code Considerations and 8 Security Considerations. You mi= ght mention the Security Considerations sections of each of the transition = mechanism RFCs, too.=20 =20 I would be in favor of removing the 6rd requirement implied by RFC7048. If = anyone is planning 6rd deployments, I'd be very surprised. Lee On 04/15/2018 01:00 AM, Fred Baker wrote: At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ip= v4aas. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-transi= tion-ipv4aas, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/= meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transition-requirements-for-ipv6-ce-= routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00. =20 I would like to invite discussion. =20 In particular, this draft derives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, and th= e chairs wonder if it should be reposted as the next version of draft-ietf-= v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That should happen if an only if the working group think= s it should be published as an RFC (now or at some point) adding considerat= ions for implementors of RFC 7084 and also implementing transition services= . =20 A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many transition mec= hanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that opinion, if you could= give that advice, identify the mechanism or mechanisms you think should be= listed, and indicate the reasoning behind your viewpoint. For example, if = you think MAP-T should be listed, it would be helpful to know what operator= s are implementing MAP-T and are looking for CE Routers that support it. Th= e same comment applies to any such mechanism or service. =20 =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie= tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. --B_3606932066_2102291200 Content-type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Hi Lee,

 

<= p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks a lot for your comments.

=  

I will review them in detail in a couple of days, in case there = are other inputs, so we can work out a new version and hopefully publish al= ready as WG item.

 

Anyw= ay, I=E2=80=99ve read all them and I think I agree in most of them.

 

I=E2=80=99ve now only a few q= uick comments/question, in order to help with a good review of our actual t= ext:

    <= li class=3DMsoListParagraph style=3D'margin-left:0cm;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo= 1'>I think this doc= ument is also for small and medium ISPs, only big ones have the power to sp= ecify the set of features they need. Not sure if your second sentence disag= ree with that.
  1. 1.1 was taken from RFC7084. Do you think it will be b= etter to use the standard RFC2119 boilerplate?
  2. I think the usage sce= narios is important to readers that may be don=E2=80=99t have a clear view = on what is the CE we are talking about, and in fact it was requested in one= of the previous v6ops presentations. Anyway, I will try to make it more = =E2=80=9Ccompressed=E2=80=9D.
  3. The =E2=80=9Cdynamic routing=E2=80=9D = comes from the original rfc7084, which turned into the rfc7084-bis. I will = check that from all my version history on this document =E2=80=A6 and clari= fy or delete it.
  4. I=E2=80=99m not 100% sure to understand your comm= ent on the CLAT. I think one of the keys is to allow deploying IPv6-only ac= cess while users still can use devices in their LANs until they have incent= ives to replace them, otherwise, customers will complain when they get IPv6= -only services (if using CLAT it is transparent for them). CLAT can provide= a NAT46, but then we need a also DNS46 ? If I got you correctly, it is goo= d that there is an incentive for replacing IPv4-only devices because at som= e point there may be IPv6-only services =E2=80=A6 so I think we should not = make any new transition mechanism to solve that problem?<= /li>
  5. I think you= mean =E2=80=9CIPv4 service continuity=E2=80=9D (not capitalized)
  6. Re= garding 6rd, you mean this document should update RFC7084 and remove 6rd re= quirements? I will agree on that =E2=80=A6
=

 

Thanks!


Regards,

Jordi

 = ;

 

De: = v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de Lee Howard <lee@asgard= .org>
Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 18 de abril de 2018, 20:18
= Para: <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-= v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion

 

I think this docum= ent is needed.

When ISPs buy equipment for customers,= they can specify which set of features they want.

When customers buy their own equipment, they can choose from whatever is o= n the shelf.

In order to effect a transition to IP= v6, customer edge routers will need to support transition mechanisms. Since= a CE router manufacturer can't know which transition mechanism will be use= d by any/all ISPs in the market where it will need to be sold, they will ne= ed to support the most likely mechanisms.

So, this= document specifies behavior for retail-marketed devices, not buyer-specifi= ed devices. If an ISP wants fewer features to save cost or for security, sh= e may specify that. It means that CE router is less likely to work if the c= onsumer takes it to a competitor ISP, but I can live with that.<= /span>

Comments on the document:

Introducti= on, Paragraph 3:

It's a run-on sentence that makes= the features sound unnecessary until there is an IPv6-only network in plac= e. Since CE routers have a lifetime of 7-15 years, I think that's too late.= Suggest rewording it to:

This document covers the IP transition technologies required when=

=C2=A0=C2=A0 IS=
Ps have an IPv6-only access network. This is a
=C2=A0=C2=A0 common situation in a worl=
d where IPv4 addresses are no longer
=C2=A0=C2=A0 available, so the service providers =
need to provision IPv6-only WAN
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 access. At the same time, they need to ensure that both IPv4-only=
 and
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 IPv6-only devices or applications in the customer networks, can stil=
l
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 reach IPv4-only devices or applications in the Internet.
 <=
/span>
Paragraph 7:
Based on my comments ab=
ove, I would like to reword this paragraph to:


=C2=A0=C2=A0 Service providers who s=
pecify feature sets for CE routers may specify
=C2=A0=C2=A0 a different set of feature=
s than those included in this document. 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0Since it is impossible to k=
now prior to sale which transition 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0mechanism a device will need ove=
r the lifetime of the device, IPv6 CE 
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0transition routers intended f=
or the retail market must support all 
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0of them.

I agree with the note in 1.1 Requiremen=
ts Language, but almost glossed over it because it looks at first like RFC2=
119 boilerplate. Maybe revise the heading to "Requirements Language - =
Special Note"? Also, "preferable" should be "preferably=
."

I'm using the same language in comments that you do in the d=
ocument, but "IPv6 transition Customer Edge Router with IPv4aaS" =
is long, and even the shortened version is cumbersome. Can we revise the te=
rminology to say that "CE Router" used in this document means &qu=
ot;a Customer Edge router with support for IPv6 transition mechanisms,"=
; unless specified as "a CE Router without transition mechanism suppor=
t"? Also, need to expand the acronym "IPv4aaS" and define it=
.

3. Usage Scenarios
I'm not sure this section is needed; I think=
 you've successfully made this argument earlier in the document, and I thin=
k anyone with even a faint familiarity with the transition understand the p=
oints being made here. If you disagree and want to keep it:

Paragrap=
h 1 nit:  "situation before described" -> "situation=
 previously described" or "situation described above".
Paragraph 2 nit: "may be" -> "it may be that"
<=
br>"customer churn. . . " would read better as:

=C2=A0=C2=A0 consumers may sw=
itch ISPs and use the same CE router with an ISP that
=C2=A0=C2=A0 provides IPv4-only =
and an ISP that provides IPv6 plus IPv4aaS. 
=


Paragraph 3 nit: "it is required an IPv6 transition CE&=
quot; -> "an IPv6 transition CE is required that"

"=
;accommodating to" -> "accommodate"

Remove "a=
s it may be or not provided by the service provider"

I'd remove=
 the sentence "Even may be a point..." Not only is it grammatical=
ly impenetrable, increasing competition isn't a goal of this document (or o=
f the IETF, or operators, or CE vendors).

The "Moreover" p=
aragraph:

=
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Moreover, because some services will remain IPv4-only for an
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 undetermined time, and some service providers will remain IPv4-only 
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0for an undetermined period of time, IPv4 will be needed for an 
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0undetermined period of time. There will be a need for CEs 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
with support "IPv4 as a Service" for an undetermined period of ti=
me.

As I said above=
, I don't think the numbered list is needed, especially when four of them a=
re the same, and two others are the same. I don't know what "exporting=
 services to the WAN" means. Does this just mean "allowing inboun=
d connections"?

The "The main difference" paragraph s=
eems to say that, but it doesn't quite. I think if you're going to sidestep=
 the issue of allowing inbound connections, you need to be much more explic=
it about it. For instance:

   An IPv6 transition CE might =
allow inbound connections over IPv6, 
   with appropriate fire=
wall rules and DNS entries. Several IPv4aaS
   implementations=
 do not allow for port forwarding to CE routers,
   and the co=
nfiguration and troubleshooting of port forwarding may
   be c=
omplicated.


The "For example" paragraph adds no clarit=
y. The number of users has no bearing on the functionality, at least as far=
 as you've described.

Second-to-last paragraph: "aspects" =
should be "features"

I'd rewrite the sentence "In fac=
t, in many cases" to:

=C2=A0=C2=A0 In fact, in many cases, the user must supply =
or may replace
=C2=A0  the IPv6 Transition CE router; this makes even more
=C2=A0=C2=A0 rele=
vant that all the IPv6 Transition CE routers support the same
=C2=A0=C2=A0 requirement=
s defined in this document.

Last paragraph of Section 3: "may have" -> "they=
 may have"

Section 4. End-User Network Architecture
"pr=
ecedent" -> "preceding"

"behind it" ->=
; "upstream"

4th paragraph: "the latest" -> &=
quot;that"
Although I'm not sure why PCP isn't part of the sentence with UPnP-IGD, and from the previous section, I tho=
ught you weren't going to discuss this.

The "Another consequenc=
e" paragraph seems to say that IPv4+NAT is a feature for address stabi=
lity, but then falls silent on address stability in IPv6. I know you don't =
want to say ULA (and I don't want to make it a target for Lorenzo), but if =
you're going to say anything, you have to be honest about it.

"=
Many existing routers support dynamic routing."  What? Consumer E=
dge routers? That is not my experience at all, and if it were common, we co=
uld have avoided two years of fighting in Homenet. 

In the requireme=
nts section, I would like to see every instance of an RFC number accompanie=
d by the title of that RFC. It helps with context. Plus, every requirement =
needs text explaining why it is a requirement. Sections 5.1 and 5.2 do neit=
her of those.

The first two sentences of 5.3 Transition Technologies=
 Support... are broken up poorly. Suggest:

=C2=A0=C2=A0 The main target of this documen=
t is the support of IPv6-only WAN
=C2=A0=C2=A0 access. To enable legacy IPv4 function=
ality, this document also
=C2=A0=C2=A0 includes the support of IPv4-only devices and=

=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 applications in the customers LANs, as well as IPv4-only services<=
/o:p>
=C2=A0=C2=A0 on =
the Internet. Thus, both IPv4-only and the IPv6-only devices 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0inside=
 the CE are able to reach the IPv4-only services.<=
/pre>

It makes me wonder that we don't need a solu=
tion for IPv4-only devices to reach IPv6-only services/content on the Inter=
net. I suppose the market means that's not required, and frankly I'm satisf=
ied with EOLing IPv4-only devices as content moves to IPv4-meh. We could in=
 theory include CLAT by itself?

I don't think IPv6 "Service Con=
tinuity" should be capitalized.

464XLAT-1  

unless there is a match wi=
th a valid
=
=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 OPTION_S46_PRIORITY
Shouldn't the CE Router process those options in order, and once one=
 works, stop? Wouldn't it be clearer to say it that was in TRANS-1, and not=
 have to repeat it later?

464XLAT-3 

In environments with PCP support=

How do you know if there's PCP support?

= Section 5.3.2 says "If DS-Lite is implemented, lw4o6 MUST be supported= as well." Why?

I like sections 7 Code Considerations and 8 Sec= urity Considerations. You might mention the Security Considerations section= s of each of the transition mechanism RFCs, too.
 
I would be in favor of removing the 6rd requirement implied by RFC7048. If anyone is pl= anning 6rd deployments, I'd be very surprised.

Lee


<= /o:p>

On 04/15/2018 01:00 AM, Fred Bak= er wrote:

At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented draf=
t-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6op=
s-transition-ipv4aas<=
/span>, and his presenta=
tion deck is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transi=
tion-requirements-for-ipv6-ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00.
 
I would like to invite discussion.=

 
In particular, this draft d=
erives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, and the chairs wonder if it shoul=
d be reposted as the next version of draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That sho=
uld happen if an only if the working group thinks it should be published as=
 an RFC (now or at some point) adding considerations for implementors of RF=
C 7084 and also implementing transition services.
 
A key comment at IETF 101 was that =
there remain far too many transition mechanisms listed. It would be helpful=
, if you hold that opinion, if you could give that advice, identify the mec=
hanism or mechanisms you think should be listed, and indicate the reasoning=
 behind your viewpoint. For example, if you think MAP-T should be listed, i=
t would be helpful to know what operators are implementing MAP-T and are lo=
oking for CE Routers that support it. The same comment applies to any such =
mechanism or service.
 =

 



______________________________________________=
_
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.=
org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


___________= ____________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org http= s://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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Are you ready for the new Internet ?
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--B_3606932066_2102291200-- From nobody Wed Apr 18 13:01:33 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F019E12426E for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 13:01:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.301 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.301 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V8zqkQngl4wf for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 13:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B2E0A12420B for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 13:01:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id 7FC67B0; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 22:01:27 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1524081687; bh=uee6VeOjdrJQHETKAeNzRmMH4FqOYo2xNR5fN9oECug=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=NVyQY/GYot5QnjQn20ZK17cOIw6/ECH0dBfi6WeFJ1BCaeD4E92ROHmdwRxyfBswN JYqR3TN/zjERu0+d4rlZYevCqA6OqVKNFcRaJj5rN5h2gS6oF8sYqc94aLXX2ACIX3 /N36XjtJ5vxRJCl3emw16SH5y11ML7tTv1Ug2MYs= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7CC6AAF; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 22:01:27 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 22:01:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Richard Patterson cc: V6 Ops List In-Reply-To: Message-ID: References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 20:01:33 -0000 On Tue, 17 Apr 2018, Richard Patterson wrote: > There are multiple vendors offering MAP-T Border Relays, and we've > been testing both OpenWRT-based CPEs as well as a custom CPE based on > the Broadcom BCM63138 SoC. > The Broadcom reference SDK comes with the CERNET kernel module and > userland tool, and supports hardware acceleration of MAP-T translated > flows with Broadcom's Runner fastpath. Just as a FYI, LW4o6 HW acceleration is now also supported on BCM63138. This is a fairly recent addition but we have this working. This is supported with regular Linux kernel userland tools such as iptables and the ip command to set up the tunneling. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Wed Apr 18 14:36:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8F494126D05 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 14:36:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=shytyi.net Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id iFvwqKDRjnsl for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 14:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sender-of-o52.zoho.eu (sender-of-o52.zoho.eu [31.186.226.248]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39845120047 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 14:36:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; t=1524087400; s=hs; d=shytyi.net; i=ietf.dmytro@shytyi.net; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Subject:MIME-Version:Content-Type; l=10469; bh=qORGgDTGlis4Ijtb1dvg1ZWA0STHsUvoCeysmw4lctw=; b=YaNJ0QGFPSIAhfMr5ijDLLE3fihDwHFYkLDpF20psSkLL07NzoFigl61E0H3nL0N VG2raASqEPTUcayoq/8LcANE2sdmQiklv9MIVWAo/mKGkf03drMdMjDnHTF5UvE3o0Q 5L241c29nz8PbR/Rbig9ISYTEgHbyCBcnE71b1/k= Received: from mail.zoho.eu (172.26.17.39 [172.26.17.39]) by mx.zoho.eu with SMTPS id 152408740088147.917390593203095; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 23:36:40 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 23:36:40 +0200 From: Dmytro Shytyi To: "v6ops" Cc: "Alexandre PETRESCU" , "CAMPO Giorgio" Message-ID: <162dab02960.c629492b49487.3795432881225509607@shytyi.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_122403_1232073133.1524087400800" X-Priority: Medium X-ZohoMail-Sender: 86.247.222.12 User-Agent: Zoho Mail X-Mailer: Zoho Mail X-ZohoMailClient: External Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-01.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:36:54 -0000 ------=_Part_122403_1232073133.1524087400800 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear v6opsers, We are happy to introduce the new version (v.01) of the DANIR draft. It has a new figure that describes the setting that works entirely with DHCPv6-PD. Please have a look by following the next link: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-01 Name: draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir Revision: 01 Title: DHCPv6_PD, PDP and NDP Implementation in IoT Router (DANIR) Group: Individual Submission Pages: 18 Abstract: This document provides a description of the implementation of Dynamic Host Configuration Protocol version 6 Prefix Delegation, Neighbour Discovery Protocol and of the use of the Packet Data Protocol in an Internet of Things Router. This Internet of Things Router is connected on a cellular network; it is a DHCPv6-PD Client and it requests a /56 pool of prefixes from the server; the DHCPv6-PD server is placed in the PGW and is a part of the cellular infrastructure. After the pool of prefixes is delegated, the Internet of Things Router derives sub-prefixes from the prefix pool; each one of these sub-prefixes is aimed at one ingress interface. After the Internet of Things Router finishes the network prefix assignment procedure, it advertises the network prefixes on the ingress links by using the Neighbour Discovery protocol. Finally, when Hosts receive the sub-prefixes via Router Adverticement messages, they configure the Global Unique Address with the Stateless Address Auto-configuration protocol. _____________ Dmytro SHYTYI ------=_Part_122403_1232073133.1524087400800 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =
Dear v6opsers,

We are happy to introduce the new = version (v.01) of the DANIR draft.
It has a new figure that describes the setting tha= t works entirely with DHCPv6-PD.<= /span>
Please have a look by following the next link: ht= tps://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-01

Name:        dr= aft-shytyi-v6ops-danir 
Revision:    01 
Title:        DHCP= v6_PD, PDP and NDP Implementation in IoT Router (DANIR) <= /span>
Group:     &n= bsp;  Individual Submission 
Pages:        18 
Abstract: 
This document provides a description of the implementation of Dyn= amic 
Host Configurat= ion Protocol version 6 Prefix Delegation, Neighbour 
Discovery Protocol and of the use of the Pac= ket Data Protocol in an 
<= /div>
Internet of Things Router. This Internet of Things Router is =
connected on a cellular network;= it is a DHCPv6-PD Client and it 
requests a /56 pool of prefixes from the server; the DHCPv6-PD = server 
is placed in t= he PGW and is a part of the cellular infrastructure. 
After the pool of prefixes is delegated, th= e Internet of Things 
= Router derives sub-prefixes from the prefix pool; each one of these&n= bsp;
sub-prefixes is aimed at one= ingress interface. 

After the Internet of Things Router finishes the network pref= ix 
assignment procedu= re, it advertises the network prefixes on the 
ingress links by using the Neighbour Discovery pro= tocol. Finally, 
<= span class=3D"colour" style=3D"color:rgb(0, 0, 0)">when = Hosts receive the sub-prefixes via Router Adverticement <= /span>
messages, they configure the Global Un= ique Address with the Stateless 
Address Auto-configuration protocol. 
_____________
Dmy= tro SHYTYI


------=_Part_122403_1232073133.1524087400800-- From nobody Wed Apr 18 15:40:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A0CD2124D37 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:40:30 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Nx1rf2WJi6Pb for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:40:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x235.google.com (mail-wr0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BB632124234 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:40:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x235.google.com with SMTP id u11-v6so8863911wri.12 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:40:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=Eo0VPmyIU8qWQroT/isL/gnl8F5elM8K1+pvGq47hWA=; b=JBhE7eGXgoJvvxjst3w2+jZqVabxUTQAMHUVaVllQewGm9ZeizgFW7qqIb4IQFQLU6 ZklzcJmV5K2ErV2vJrfbrQ7RGSBuWI6RJ9Ia3T5/z15LjqycLKc2gvNKdkzKVu9qQ8+H k5uvOQ1Wv3G3SEfaYbqB5l4b2N1Cf36mtSGDdAivVgtkuEQiuxrwln1TOiJcMUV24OVE BTAcE0AviRO3sFEY5kGy96IcOBIqbuE4eItUDaKsApVZapAQ6S+nGneNnZHiAcZAmHvt i8UclmMvglyUE29VhutDOoDewfkZyiu8yRtehQ/6as7gEonf6WwDSr+A8Ip9xHBKI5Uh tT6Q== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=Eo0VPmyIU8qWQroT/isL/gnl8F5elM8K1+pvGq47hWA=; b=ItrJTmML8r8c7hFoAMdD5gSGD6zwiZ44fXSsIy0neEwj+p0FUQ3cs/lGJlQLkd9ii7 X0mEbB4pfkSnfVqTemfuB8gABGyNHN8kGyRgyKP2rO7aCrhW+CBw2mzHAo3XUuQyH1e8 OqtgwgaOwlXcMI9fGstBf2fRDTkr9MR4zsJI8D6OKyP4sTfqmiYfxv0YET/LVxdCeJMY 6Njaf+kMSP1pqcktvbVRi3oj8fnVF+1wqXh2YOFRCHwQXhiuf8CM0myo+V8Ba/lXjliL /O5b0IiTrhCWfpaDyhq3cysNsGGMZjk76hXGguAtQTaEYkQ9+sXrbRdLSUl+hsKgmrxw kPDA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tBKbHoli/hJPNlGIA0511Ru4fhDng4M2hBjXB/OZOJhKq91c1Rg 73oi+gdQnIQucTPgmytatxcHatuA X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/0TM9HLWLgT3tFQ0cN1RNf1AOQpGUD94Lzy3UJ8VqnQV9kHIlaFNAwwEQ/EU3e6IQ9saAybQ== X-Received: by 10.80.234.205 with SMTP id u13mr5310495edp.288.1524091226963; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:40:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2001:4f8:3:65:5c35:c6bf:1214:a178? ([2001:4f8:3:65:5c35:c6bf:1214:a178]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z4sm1659218edm.44.2018.04.18.15.40.25 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:40:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_A52BCF93-EF8A-45AA-9AE9-5AE773003217"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:40:22 -0700 References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> To: V6 Ops List In-Reply-To: <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> Message-Id: <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 18 Apr 2018 22:40:31 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_A52BCF93-EF8A-45AA-9AE9-5AE773003217 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Apr 18, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Lee Howard wrote: >=20 > I think this document is needed. So, in addition to the authors, we have three people (Richard, Barbara, = and Lee) that have said to the list that this document "is needed", by = which I infer that they want it to be adopted as a working group = document. That said, as I said to Fred Templin a few weeks ago, that = isn't proof of a consensus. The chairs would be interested to know how many do, and how many do not, = want that to happen. If you have specific arguments, relevance to your = part of the world, and so on, that's important too. --Apple-Mail=_A52BCF93-EF8A-45AA-9AE9-5AE773003217 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlrXyVYACgkQEhdRnd2G P+DmZRAAhXitprA3TIiU7k2bzPZCL+yM1/Xip2X60owft9r6hU5ClBKODkU/mul5 F3yNDuIKc0oiEXCzG+hMnKJNltoYdaBDWojzBPUeHRVIzS+Aig4ax9Lf9lkXTXgj 7UOcpbVQ1njNx4PIpEBwMqceT+TYDZ9PKpR3Tvk9EP9+7+KRQX+xQnJuxv+F/56l arr9yRrdHueXqrdyYtb6vrZLHnmdilfYqU7eVbdfTnot4BEpHy1aLIjYKJItPXFX dhDCtVTdWS9p/75aj8enNrzKoJhYQ0kaCs6BFSk0faH1N3UgJTchoC5hzcmc12iD 4V8UNF+1x9ar0R1sdaTbEidrdzjK8jsQLsmKsGQ03hBVrEsA84SHX+lfmZ0Y+qLF GcHMpmIkzjFhYTXEwGWX2t/FCJgTzgPfcaE4ud9NdDm9X0wbD270zYezkQYWCNNz 4zwZyzilSlm8f3beOHuEe4P2YxGHy5pCqbTKfmZAn3DvAIUr8eJrbgozXVzd5CJH XDgn5lvI7Ge3y1pCU45vQTxGFeb09Pidk7lb8OEBHDZFvXk173It7ucV4+hBISKc jh80CuOLZfvcKBAI6UPYmfVtvqlpjTKbZ1dbfdDEVL4PRMTFIFmZFntF27mknNYe MdA3aXwQsQT1dLXfLd0iFDzSq2oKg5LtkKvWii7OaGMP29aFdpU= =BYfB -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_A52BCF93-EF8A-45AA-9AE9-5AE773003217-- From nobody Wed Apr 18 20:34:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6F81128959 for ; 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Thu, 19 Apr 2018 03:34:12 +0000 Received: from BN7PR14MB2369.namprd14.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f93b:3f3e:86dc:7711]) by BN7PR14MB2369.namprd14.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::f93b:3f3e:86dc:7711%13]) with mapi id 15.20.0675.015; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 03:34:12 +0000 From: "Ackermann, Michael" To: Fred Baker , V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Thread-Index: AQHT1HavBJo5FHYM+U6QV1e+vt2FE6QG2hqAgABJcACAAFETgA== Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 03:34:12 +0000 Message-ID: References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: authentication-results: gmail.com; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gmail.com; dmarc=none action=none header.from=bcbsm.com; x-originating-ip: [165.225.0.92] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-microsoft-exchange-diagnostics: 1; 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charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-Office365-Filtering-Correlation-Id: 274576ad-8a17-4756-2135-08d5a5a66b5c X-OriginatorOrg: bcbsm.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 274576ad-8a17-4756-2135-08d5a5a66b5c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 19 Apr 2018 03:34:12.5897 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 6f56d3fa-5682-4261-b169-bc0d615da17c X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN7PR14MB2225 X-TM-AS-GCONF: 00 X-VPM-HOST: vmvpm01.z120.zixworks.com X-VPM-GROUP-ID: 584e151d-024f-485a-b87e-efec45866744 X-VPM-MSG-ID: fcd960d8-8068-4718-8d71-d08f7594a17d X-VPM-ENC-REGIME: Plaintext X-VPM-IS-HYBRID: 0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 03:34:19 -0000 This is good work and will be helpful/beneficial to organizations = transitioning to IPv6. =20 I am wondering why large enterprises are expressly excluded from the scope = of the document. =20 I support this as a WG document. =20 Thanks Mike -----Original Message----- From: v6ops =5Bmailto:v6ops-bounces=40ietf.org=5D On Behalf Of Fred Baker Sent: Wednesday, April 18, 2018 6:40 PM To: V6 Ops List Subject: Re: =5Bv6ops=5D draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion > On Apr 18, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Lee Howard wrote: >=20 > I think this document is needed. So, in addition to the authors, we have three people (Richard, Barbara, = and Lee) that have said to the list that this document =22is needed=22, by = which I infer that they want it to be adopted as a working group document. = That said, as I said to Fred Templin a few weeks ago, that isn't proof of = a consensus. The chairs would be interested to know how many do, and how many do not, = want that to happen. If you have specific arguments, relevance to your = part of the world, and so on, that's important too. The information contained in this communication is highly confidential and = is intended solely for the use of the individual(s) to whom this = communication is directed. If you are not the intended recipient, you are = hereby notified that any viewing, copying, disclosure or distribution of = this information is prohibited. Please notify the sender, by electronic = mail or telephone, of any unintended receipt and delete the original = message without making any copies. =20 Blue Cross Blue Shield of Michigan and Blue Care Network of Michigan are = nonprofit corporations and independent licensees of the Blue Cross and = Blue Shield Association. From nobody Wed Apr 18 21:13:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E3B7C128961 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:13:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.998 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.998 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id deWwSr-l9fQR for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x230.google.com (mail-wr0-x230.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::230]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0DFD120726 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:13:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x230.google.com with SMTP id u11-v6so10086689wri.12 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:13:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=grbq9RSmpsAvQw1jHn/RVuDFX0sxwJaK7BYmmehZ1CQ=; b=jbs+m50SVER4nEKbl+4Ers+A/kkoB7zsv63ORNDQtSBS57ka6E+KFmIIEue2ikVBje YeM0sEBFjdrCtNkGDqcQdv07wf9qDlWDWZe5WoxwWUQRq7UkwgbLsssgiA1CezjpKCtV hISoiwbIRMFgdOQNZYunBzcm/GEsbdEIn3iWAhYzc4PtSLsPvlHRPBA7K2nS/mTNi0QE NKEeOmHAsP8ujortfe9yaKoL3tKjcjPE6lDFY0VTSR6OdaNf6kvPEjtZ0oVF8JwNY/0w 9fr4FNEdTRRBOyiTS8p6bqeHOplm1ICPAmzuhw73U/FX/sntrResZNB+sAR8poehcyLd 0Dwg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=grbq9RSmpsAvQw1jHn/RVuDFX0sxwJaK7BYmmehZ1CQ=; b=sj73Mk+HFvfS6MoWfN9AP+45r+yeQlxYi/vD3IdaHEcTX2sXgQrMw/aLZOCs33ww7n XD4/J7g2IzzM1xVJ6PAQXFoPjVI6iO0on0bsZt9okCq87J5iBCX44MoDntawEGtbn1vi ZPUdgvN268MZS3JfsMsNFBcrtyA4bmZHh96fqWBWHe6LjlT4ha3d2FAAco1w8jXRTNk2 XD1jpVhSaMojtRhLEEVIWBUlN8l7TkSLE1GjfxrqhOu/S9cXn5dcJ/HrV6QPA7C9gBwN 2C+QgSONOQ/cyUxoGt2MJgso/cmXXhjc/4sQhYklcC7DLBqNCuH2dFkmUEGqPcJnqArD fsGw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDhiuYxsskjLUt/CPLL3WTY48MJXd4zRef9U6tA0vRNJGZGdLVP EVSsz0Eh/gJxr/2PSOKat7qS4cy03/B5gBVFz2Qk X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx48RVMccM59pkXzWIz0PVy35zDtEaafMnorcELbRVRw+ztEdqFZh41TELUQH9jkZFcH73o3iLy1Dc6vDPijmZZo= X-Received: by 2002:adf:992d:: with SMTP id x42-v6mr3443811wrb.145.1524111221070; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:13:41 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.149.38 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:13:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> From: Hans Liu Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 12:13:40 +0800 Message-ID: To: Fred Baker Cc: V6 Ops List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000ee2055056a2bcba4" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 04:13:45 -0000 --000000000000ee2055056a2bcba4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Despite of the author role, I sincerely support this document as a product manager of a CE router vendor. Experience tells me it is almost impossible to ask the programmers in my OEM vendors to read all related RFCs when I want them to implement a new feature. They are not IETFer so they may not voice in the mailing list how useful and helpful a summary can facilitate their works. But I know they do appreciate summarized guidelines like RFC 7084. I don't think I could have had all my OEM vendorss to make qualified IPv6 CE routers for IPv6 world launch without RFC 6204. Sincerely, Hans On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 6:40 AM, Fred Baker wrote: > > > > On Apr 18, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Lee Howard wrote: > > > > I think this document is needed. > > So, in addition to the authors, we have three people (Richard, Barbara, > and Lee) that have said to the list that this document "is needed", by > which I infer that they want it to be adopted as a working group document. > That said, as I said to Fred Templin a few weeks ago, that isn't proof of a > consensus. > > The chairs would be interested to know how many do, and how many do not, > want that to happen. If you have specific arguments, relevance to your part > of the world, and so on, that's important too. > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > -- Instead of following the fashion, we lead it through. --000000000000ee2055056a2bcba4 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Despite of the author role, I sincerely support this docum= ent as a product manager of a CE router vendor.=C2=A0 Experience tells me i= t is almost impossible to ask the programmers in my OEM vendors to read all= related RFCs when I want them to implement a new feature.=C2=A0 They are n= ot IETFer so they may not voice in the mailing list how useful and helpful = a summary can facilitate their works.=C2=A0 But I know they do appreciate s= ummarized guidelines like RFC 7084. I don't think I could have had all = my OEM vendorss to make qualified IPv6 CE routers for IPv6 world launch wit= hout RFC 6204.=C2=A0=C2=A0


Sincerely,
Hans

On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 6:40 AM, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@g= mail.com> wrote:


> On Apr 18, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Lee Howard <Lee@asgard.org> wrote:
>
> I think this document is needed.

So, in addition to the authors, we have three people (Richard, Barba= ra, and Lee) that have said to the list that this document "is needed&= quot;, by which I infer that they want it to be adopted as a working group = document. That said, as I said to Fred Templin a few weeks ago, that isn= 9;t proof of a consensus.

The chairs would be interested to know how many do, and how many do not, wa= nt that to happen. If you have specific arguments, relevance to your part o= f the world, and so on, that's important too.

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops




--
Instead of follow= ing the fashion, we lead it through.
--000000000000ee2055056a2bcba4-- From nobody Wed Apr 18 21:25:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 94D99129C56 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:25:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.3 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.3 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=swm.pp.se Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id gZdQW0ApZkvI for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from uplift.swm.pp.se (ipv6.swm.pp.se [IPv6:2a00:801::f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C9B4128961 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 21:25:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix, from userid 501) id E9F5CB0; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:25:10 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=swm.pp.se; s=mail; t=1524111910; bh=jkPyAeKxsd01xBnPFE4tQJ6KLeI83+tjjtVmdUag3yc=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=Ey8ew0SX/rAzEel67NUpzjqx2N39aLUorigzJQJCOhs6Un53Vas8Af/5OktzLEdF8 5JMjZ2QpTwGZSjy8eajakvuIkcLcX1mrPRHUYUA5xdCKlmI9O6Le3yNiKdROd7c0uB nMFSHsyhRZO++670zF/nzm/oGNwqjBD+g+3xa0bU= Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by uplift.swm.pp.se (Postfix) with ESMTP id E6FCFAF; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:25:10 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:25:10 +0200 (CEST) From: Mikael Abrahamsson To: Fred Baker cc: V6 Ops List In-Reply-To: <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> Message-ID: References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> User-Agent: Alpine 2.20 (DEB 67 2015-01-07) Organization: People's Front Against WWW MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 04:25:16 -0000 On Wed, 18 Apr 2018, Fred Baker wrote: > The chairs would be interested to know how many do, and how many do not, > want that to happen. If you have specific arguments, relevance to your > part of the world, and so on, that's important too. I support this document to be adopted and just the way I think RFC7084 helps ISPs formulate requirements and also get an overview of what's available and what behaviour the device should have in an easy all-in-one document, I think ipv4aas document would we worthwhile in this area. I point to RFC7084 quite often in discussions, I imagine I will use the end product of this document in the same way. -- Mikael Abrahamsson email: swmike@swm.pp.se From nobody Wed Apr 18 23:48:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2A60B129C70 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 23:48:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.001 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.001 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=steffann.nl Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id w00nKSELwcG9 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 23:48:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.sintact.nl (mail.sintact.nl [IPv6:2001:9e0:803::6]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 674D712AAB6 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 23:48:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BDE04A; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:48:06 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=steffann.nl; h= references:message-id:content-transfer-encoding:date:date :in-reply-to:x-mailer:from:from:subject:subject:mime-version :content-type:content-type:received:received; s=mail; t= 1524120484; bh=vgnL0ZT+7DZxn+40jFoWOWgAvd4HtutGgty+rXRr67I=; b=M JtoIghkLZ4P6Xxu6iesowozbNk2u88AMu++mTV7caIzD2nK5hFP3CsYzKiTExc7a OtalmYaNluFcYRG13HkcpxCF8fHHLcmn6LobkWqcbinKEIhK99UEFePguriL2tPY sBOUm3b6XEDD0GRyKb794YXkQxggSeDKC8KCPh8RiU= X-Virus-Scanned: Debian amavisd-new at mail.sintact.nl Received: from mail.sintact.nl ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (mail.sintact.nl [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id ds57wq-g9TiX; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:48:04 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [IPv6:2a02:a213:a301:1000:94cc:a164:f546:a94e] (unknown [IPv6:2a02:a213:a301:1000:94cc:a164:f546:a94e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (Client did not present a certificate) by mail.sintact.nl (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id B696F49; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:48:04 +0200 (CEST) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) X-Clacks-Overhead: GNU Terry Pratchett From: Sander Steffann X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15E216) In-Reply-To: <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 08:48:02 +0200 Cc: V6 Ops List Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> To: Fred Baker Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:48:13 -0000 Hi, > So, in addition to the authors, we have three people (Richard, Barbara, an= d Lee) that have said to the list that this document "is needed", by which I= infer that they want it to be adopted as a working group document. That sai= d, as I said to Fred Templin a few weeks ago, that isn't proof of a consensu= s. >=20 > The chairs would be interested to know how many do, and how many do not, w= ant that to happen. If you have specific arguments, relevance to your part o= f the world, and so on, that's important too. I would like to see this draft adopted as a working group document. I recogn= ise Hans' arguments from my discussions with other vendors. Cheers, Sander From nobody Wed Apr 18 23:53:30 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8A6431273E2 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 23:53:28 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id bM0XDRvqsk54 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 23:53:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22f.google.com (mail-wr0-x22f.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22f]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88C9E124D6C for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 23:53:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22f.google.com with SMTP id h3-v6so10880205wrh.5 for ; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 23:53:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=AYKoLJP90g//805KJqszfCcpCcisUqaGfUPD0oAjLi0=; b=LsiOOAAFPy4bn0oMe97/t7ac3txcvkgzoMudxSvy4K87/182kxPdaB6FPZObBUXxDI 1BGLlu5QWUlEcmwIv9NG2niMoOQ3tfoIhnblXSlM6Veb5xB4tFr4fkcpA18JMXyfwKh7 moicWxnlSzSMdFtnMCdXUKO0w5qxG9OaFsMwlbhrdGbPQ+e8vO3aAyyqSdtS+uRX4ac0 aUgadKgc9Oq4ZmEVdOpl9PecpwdLkr5buHS/RiZelyv6TLrLM5Zq4aZZpqRW3RUn8WRQ j/+pu+RSKHDy0Xbjdlb9eFlVblOCIl1esVBiuS5izubNC8bMhj3m8R25jH+GyzCbG0GV zjZQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=AYKoLJP90g//805KJqszfCcpCcisUqaGfUPD0oAjLi0=; b=BKwGoLHU/Y3oC9i315q6xvOD4gxY/d0YDbxmv3IZwM/9p3HmcOfMQdCBxb4rwGsi2v cJZW6+Hqptd5/e7LB48fhqfEQ4RI069nYaCc8Rfr8ijvLCGV4DbvdP7x4aEyI3iLqCik m7oLq+kW6dfrIx+j6gAoeEDwDfX6UR8hXABeNIpO5tzqPZqRUNVnQWj9MvqAJyEHr4qD fgZWt3A1sEsDbamx3VHqFJ9lWdFO7dtZePW0h3dfD6geHiL3nlNk1dPKDzYoC+Y6q/s3 ohAzl7jRz67RoR3j5F+BvfKvC0bP8pSJol9Ry87yT5yr+uFIPqJH5O1Jcs/UKR1jU7YP rpWg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDk16ebVUIWvK9FB+IPY5WupdAsJb0XrpZgvzt1fAcP9nR232uh DewhEI25BxiAb/d69CfgXgOet0PnbM0v1/8gCH2fvA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49yAE89upvz8WH7jgmSUyWjJ/8DPBTxE+aNSgHQAWWNKBhvj8eAGmA+2sDy3h0ACfjvX6TnUm3o3bGldrqAhGc= X-Received: by 2002:adf:9607:: with SMTP id b7-v6mr3472482wra.129.1524120803844; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 23:53:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.146.143 with HTTP; Wed, 18 Apr 2018 23:53:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <162dab02960.c629492b49487.3795432881225509607@shytyi.net> References: <162dab02960.c629492b49487.3795432881225509607@shytyi.net> From: Erik Kline Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:53:03 +0900 Message-ID: To: Dmytro Shytyi Cc: v6ops , CAMPO Giorgio , Alexandre PETRESCU Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="00000000000021da9f056a2e07a2" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-01.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:53:28 -0000 --00000000000021da9f056a2e07a2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" I've only scanned the document quickly, but I'm curious: in which ways is this different from regular CPE behaviour where, say, the CPE has an LTE interface for connection to the Internet? On 19 April 2018 at 06:36, Dmytro Shytyi wrote: > Dear v6opsers, > > We are happy to introduce the new version (v.01) of the DANIR draft. > It has a new figure that describes the setting that works entirely with > DHCPv6-PD. > Please have a look by following the next link: > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-01 > > > Name: draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir > Revision: 01 > Title: DHCPv6_PD, PDP and NDP Implementation in IoT Router (DANIR) > Group: Individual Submission > Pages: 18 > Abstract: > This document provides a description of the implementation of Dynamic > Host Configuration Protocol version 6 Prefix Delegation, Neighbour > Discovery Protocol and of the use of the Packet Data Protocol in an > Internet of Things Router. This Internet of Things Router is > connected on a cellular network; it is a DHCPv6-PD Client and it > requests a /56 pool of prefixes from the server; the DHCPv6-PD server > is placed in the PGW and is a part of the cellular infrastructure. > After the pool of prefixes is delegated, the Internet of Things > Router derives sub-prefixes from the prefix pool; each one of these > sub-prefixes is aimed at one ingress interface. > > After the Internet of Things Router finishes the network prefix > assignment procedure, it advertises the network prefixes on the > ingress links by using the Neighbour Discovery protocol. Finally, > when Hosts receive the sub-prefixes via Router Adverticement > messages, they configure the Global Unique Address with the Stateless > Address Auto-configuration protocol. > _____________ > Dmytro SHYTYI > > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --00000000000021da9f056a2e07a2 Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIS3wYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIS0DCCEswCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg ghBFMIIEXDCCA0SgAwIBAgIOSBtqDm4P/739RPqw/wcwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwZDELMAkGA1UE BhMCQkUxGTAXBgNVBAoTEEdsb2JhbFNpZ24gbnYtc2ExOjA4BgNVBAMTMUdsb2JhbFNpZ24gUGVy c29uYWxTaWduIFBhcnRuZXJzIENBIC0gU0hBMjU2IC0gRzIwHhcNMTYwNjE1MDAwMDAwWhcNMjEw NjE1MDAwMDAwWjBMMQswCQYDVQQGEwJCRTEZMBcGA1UEChMQR2xvYmFsU2lnbiBudi1zYTEiMCAG 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vM11V8bW40M1JoJvT5c7Yd1EtIuUYsTlPTJhoIMSKPUxofxbtXc+G+9edqZjM+a0lm3PwVDyVN54 n4UPWuRnhJVP8Bz8IbvUzmoHGIQ7nOOjnjFcVuFqB6bVIUzN4h3Bfisf3A1GTCE= --00000000000021da9f056a2e07a2-- From nobody Thu Apr 19 06:15:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1A8C612D7F0 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:15:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3rlZZ18JgvP2 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:15:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tyo162.gate.nec.co.jp (tyo162.gate.nec.co.jp [114.179.232.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher 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BPXC22GP.gisp.nec.co.jp ([10.38.151.150]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 22:14:52 +0900 From: Masanobu Kawashima To: V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Thread-Index: AQHT12ZHY7UTwmMSmE2v964OwmGm+aQH8xLQ Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 13:14:51 +0000 Message-ID: <81A3232BEF82944C8F23DB1CFE276F0F495A92F4@BPXM24GP.gisp.nec.co.jp> References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> Accept-Language: ja-JP, en-US Content-Language: ja-JP X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.3.141.178] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-2022-jp" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 13:15:33 -0000 Hi,=20 I support this document as a working group document.=20 Our company is already providing DS-Lite and MAP-E CE router.=20 However, this document will help CE router vendors as nice guideline like R= FC 7084.=20 I'm co-chair of IPv6 home router SWG in IPv6 promotion counsil in Japan.=20 This will also help our local guideline for ISP's and CE router vendors.=20 I'd also like to discuss about RFC8026 DHCPv6 S46 priority option in this d= ocument.=20 Because we can't use DHCPv6 option in actual situation.=20 Regards,=20 Masanobu=20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 NEC Platforms, Ltd. =20 KAWASHIMA Masanobu =20 kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com =20 https://www.necplatforms.co.jp/en/ =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 7:40 AM > To: V6 Ops List > Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 >=20 >=20 > > On Apr 18, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Lee Howard wrote: > > > > I think this document is needed. >=20 > So, in addition to the authors, we have three people (Richard, Barbara, a= nd Lee) that have said to the list that this > document "is needed", by which I infer that they want it to be adopted as= a working group document. That said, as > I said to Fred Templin a few weeks ago, that isn't proof of a consensus. >=20 > The chairs would be interested to know how many do, and how many do not, = want that to happen. If you have specific > arguments, relevance to your part of the world, and so on, that's importa= nt too. From nobody Thu Apr 19 06:46:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A2CC112DA05 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:46:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id nUCYhqsJOcLm for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:46:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A424512D965 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 06:46:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524145606; x=1524750406; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=ZA0kfbyL Pwl024wuTecAViVH3RYG86J9sHGpNF4JhFc=; b=HivjMmkaIrKQ/7sMy++cTcu6 jO5ITl5UjljLHG2xCa67NzOFxdX6yhK+VTWgtgyYByqqKzc/6MC8SuLkmWnXUuHF sYGdoOSF+58Xc2+A2KzxleNwTEwEyKi0TSgQFG/Jv2vPZLgFM2XXbRtqBhJlcEO1 QWUOTCu6SLW6evShpYA= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:46:46 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:46:45 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005754134.msg for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:46:44 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:9d98:6a1b:5869:1963 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:46:44 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1647c52b1a=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 15:46:29 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <202AE1B4-1B2C-4133-B01C-12A5A361A61F@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> <81A3232BEF82944C8F23DB1CFE276F0F495A92F4@BPXM24GP.gisp.nec.co.jp> In-Reply-To: <81A3232BEF82944C8F23DB1CFE276F0F495A92F4@BPXM24GP.gisp.nec.co.jp> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 13:46:51 -0000 Hi Masanobu, Thanks for your input. I also recall that you had 464XLAT, MAP-T and lw4o6 = implemented. May be not in the "regular" firmware? Regarding RFC8026, can you describe what is the issue that you have? May be this document could be used to update RFC8026 if something is missin= g, or alternatively we will need to look into amending whatever is wrong in= RFC8026, but in any case, we need to understand very well the issue. Or do you mean that we need a more detailed description in draft-palet-v6op= s-transition-ipv4aas about how to use RFC8026? Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Masanobu Kawashima Fecha: jueves, 19 de abril de 2018, 15:15 Para: V6 Ops List Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion =20 Hi,=20 =20 I support this document as a working group document.=20 =20 Our company is already providing DS-Lite and MAP-E CE router.=20 However, this document will help CE router vendors as nice guideline li= ke RFC 7084.=20 I'm co-chair of IPv6 home router SWG in IPv6 promotion counsil in Japan= .=20 This will also help our local guideline for ISP's and CE router vendors= .=20 =20 I'd also like to discuss about RFC8026 DHCPv6 S46 priority option in th= is document.=20 Because we can't use DHCPv6 option in actual situation.=20 =20 Regards,=20 Masanobu=20 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 NEC Platforms, Ltd. =20 KAWASHIMA Masanobu =20 kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com =20 https://www.necplatforms.co.jp/en/ =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 =20 =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker > Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 7:40 AM > To: V6 Ops List > Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 >=20 >=20 > > On Apr 18, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Lee Howard wrote: > > > > I think this document is needed. >=20 > So, in addition to the authors, we have three people (Richard, Barbar= a, and Lee) that have said to the list that this > document "is needed", by which I infer that they want it to be adopte= d as a working group document. That said, as > I said to Fred Templin a few weeks ago, that isn't proof of a consens= us. >=20 > The chairs would be interested to know how many do, and how many do n= ot, want that to happen. If you have specific > arguments, relevance to your part of the world, and so on, that's imp= ortant too. =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. 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[96.95.216.129]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id c28sm8996494pfe.27.2018.04.19.07.25.12 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 19 Apr 2018 07:25:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9BE6690F-034D-40AD-B939-0A08BC4B7D93"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 07:25:10 -0700 References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> To: V6 Ops List In-Reply-To: <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:25:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9BE6690F-034D-40AD-B939-0A08BC4B7D93 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Apr 18, 2018, at 3:40 PM, Fred Baker = wrote: > The chairs would be interested to know how many do, and how many do = not, want that to happen. If you have specific arguments, relevance to = your part of the world, and so on, that's important too. So using all of my fingers and thumbs, Ron and I see a vendor and seven = operators that want to see this as a working group document; we see = enough of a consensus in that regard. During May, we invite Jordi to = repost as draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas, a working group document. = I obviously expect Jordi to work with the operators that commented on = the requirements, and to discuss it at IETF 102. In my dreams, I'd like = to reach consensus then on the features in question. --Apple-Mail=_9BE6690F-034D-40AD-B939-0A08BC4B7D93 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlrYpsYACgkQEhdRnd2G P+C2QQ/+Mk8NF/Xv4rd9wn0NANOA2oZO/e6wiTaGIGPkMluvTv8jewbJHLv3STpW tDd2mvIENc3pMjFMbccRmLRQ+vqUXxbVbIZAnBxad7e9FAIH3+jJLEkW6BwLwnJv +oyG2lgbb25zQY8FHGXwU2jAuadO8ziTo7hboSgu2P3V5klLO4zd3AJlbUl0gR90 Sy0SGKsB41xsy3KGIT9kriReghAMeL+CC61iVpSvRk5xxhC9oqKeoAXUCmKfW2xm uKubszDmS6CNm7y08mA6W+3YU+8SFw676YUuSMst5dHyJo8xnbj7OWSLcTxF+m/j CCpFx5r4VaAKNEdA/yeTltpNWcwgkMu+vmffjBihQdgjFp5gJ4N/svSOtQLTaXcG 3ukVsD1M7l16Mb3gDxtpvBcpCluBa+Hz9neWvBZX7vSLPqJ9z5XVAJNHXiFqaZ3t jsKzAqeqSOdYIUQ5HUULV5PFOPIfc87onapDQWLikmKRAbdXqLVCT151cfSLgkmr i+x3mNglrsCtDDQaGyTgjxnFRuy+cHQbQDnyc8fe4rRvgcGbsD+IZRKeOMF/Pxct IZiXqEIUHgUwNNebrziGRVf7Xw/NDiXb+EnSNLu6yDhRywZY9G4I/SWleOwgYlO2 s3w2fneHKYDI3hK8EAULHKn/QTwl8Kz+WKOBaD2Q8KWTYee5Dh0= =p+oy -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9BE6690F-034D-40AD-B939-0A08BC4B7D93-- From nobody Thu Apr 19 07:33:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 2529D12DA44 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 07:32:39 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OHkYIalumxHz for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 07:32:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7ACCF12DB6D for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 07:32:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524148346; x=1524753146; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=I/yTswWx kIyK3YFky8lCzwSdBAyX8Ez0572Zb5zjzeg=; b=pGHnHqG1mZBxXFD3yeToyNXq a2OFGjIEMmbzmHZBbH4b90QL2/KfqSBowMKe3L6m594lXiJgOTc3U9kUESdaOvHK DhgiasB9dx+F2Y3ASMhv1O4UukH+yyMWKG8D3sVmb2J2094wVBUP7J/GgEM3pS8d oDDE2NBV3Av/U1jZ+fI= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:32:26 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:32:26 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005754160.msg for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:32:24 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:5991:3cf8:f1e1:6e51 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:32:24 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1647c52b1a=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 16:32:20 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <776647C2-CB79-45F9-B48E-033E81035FCC@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 19 Apr 2018 14:32:39 -0000 Thanks Fred, My hope is that I can get new inputs during the next few days, together wit= h clarifications to those already received, and then we can try to have rea= dy a WG-00 version by end of next week or early following one. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Fred Baker Fecha: jueves, 19 de abril de 2018, 16:25 Para: V6 Ops List Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion On Apr 18, 2018, at 3:40 PM, Fred Baker wrot= e: > The chairs would be interested to know how many do, and how many do n= ot, want that to happen. If you have specific arguments, relevance to your = part of the world, and so on, that's important too. =20 So using all of my fingers and thumbs, Ron and I see a vendor and seven= operators that want to see this as a working group document; we see enough= of a consensus in that regard. During May, we invite Jordi to repost as dr= aft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas, a working group document. I obviously ex= pect Jordi to work with the operators that commented on the requirements, a= nd to discuss it at IETF 102. In my dreams, I'd like to reach consensus the= n on the features in question. _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Apr 19 23:33:32 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05B54129C6B for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 23:33:31 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oo_BRd93dLGO for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 23:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orange.com (mta134.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E4E5B120724 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 23:33:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr05.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.69]) by opfednr26.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 44544207B1; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:33:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.58]) by opfednr05.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 2371020067; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:33:27 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM33.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::3881:fc15:b4b2:9017%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0389.001; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:33:26 +0200 From: To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Thread-Index: AQHT1+tdhN2rsmVyFESxK6uR1Ucm1aQJMtlw Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 06:33:26 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF0E7E5@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> <776647C2-CB79-45F9-B48E-033E81035FCC@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: <776647C2-CB79-45F9-B48E-033E81035FCC@consulintel.es> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.4] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 06:33:31 -0000 SGkgSm9yZGksIA0KDQpBcyB5b3UgYXJlIHdhaXRpbmcgZm9yIHNvbWUgaW5wdXRzLCB5b3UgbWF5 IGZpbmQgc29tZSBhdCwgZndpdzogDQoNCmh0dHBzOi8vZ2l0aHViLmNvbS9ib3VjYWRhaXIvSUVU Ri1EcmFmdHMtUmV2aWV3cy9yYXcvbWFzdGVyL2RyYWZ0LXBhbGV0LXY2b3BzLXRyYW5zaXRpb24t aXB2NGFhcy0wMC1yZXYlMjBNZWQuZG9jIA0KDQpDaGVlcnMsDQpNZWQgDQoNCj4gLS0tLS1NZXNz YWdlIGQnb3JpZ2luZS0tLS0tDQo+IERlwqA6IHY2b3BzIFttYWlsdG86djZvcHMtYm91bmNlc0Bp ZXRmLm9yZ10gRGUgbGEgcGFydCBkZSBKT1JESSBQQUxFVCBNQVJUSU5FWg0KPiBFbnZvecOpwqA6 IGpldWRpIDE5IGF2cmlsIDIwMTggMTY6MzINCj4gw4DCoDogVjYgT3BzIExpc3QNCj4gT2JqZXTC oDogUmU6IFt2Nm9wc10gZHJhZnQtcGFsZXQtdjZvcHMtdHJhbnNpdGlvbi1pcHY0YWFzIGRpc2N1 c3Npb24NCj4gDQo+IFRoYW5rcyBGcmVkLA0KPiANCj4gTXkgaG9wZSBpcyB0aGF0IEkgY2FuIGdl dCBuZXcgaW5wdXRzIGR1cmluZyB0aGUgbmV4dCBmZXcgZGF5cywgdG9nZXRoZXIgd2l0aA0KPiBj bGFyaWZpY2F0aW9ucyB0byB0aG9zZSBhbHJlYWR5IHJlY2VpdmVkLCBhbmQgdGhlbiB3ZSBjYW4g dHJ5IHRvIGhhdmUgcmVhZHkgYQ0KPiBXRy0wMCB2ZXJzaW9uIGJ5IGVuZCBvZiBuZXh0IHdlZWsg b3IgZWFybHkgZm9sbG93aW5nIG9uZS4NCj4gDQo+IFJlZ2FyZHMsDQo+IEpvcmRpDQo+IA0KPiAN Cj4g77u/LS0tLS1NZW5zYWplIG9yaWdpbmFsLS0tLS0NCj4gRGU6IHY2b3BzIDx2Nm9wcy1ib3Vu Y2VzQGlldGYub3JnPiBlbiBub21icmUgZGUgRnJlZCBCYWtlcg0KPiA8ZnJlZGJha2VyLmlldGZA Z21haWwuY29tPg0KPiBGZWNoYToganVldmVzLCAxOSBkZSBhYnJpbCBkZSAyMDE4LCAxNjoyNQ0K PiBQYXJhOiBWNiBPcHMgTGlzdCA8djZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmc+DQo+IEFzdW50bzogUmU6IFt2Nm9w c10gZHJhZnQtcGFsZXQtdjZvcHMtdHJhbnNpdGlvbi1pcHY0YWFzIGRpc2N1c3Npb24NCj4gDQo+ ICAgICBPbiBBcHIgMTgsIDIwMTgsIGF0IDM6NDAgUE0sIEZyZWQgQmFrZXIgPGZyZWRiYWtlci5p ZXRmQGdtYWlsLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6DQo+ICAgICA+IFRoZSBjaGFpcnMgd291bGQgYmUgaW50ZXJl c3RlZCB0byBrbm93IGhvdyBtYW55IGRvLCBhbmQgaG93IG1hbnkgZG8NCj4gbm90LCB3YW50IHRo YXQgdG8gaGFwcGVuLiBJZiB5b3UgaGF2ZSBzcGVjaWZpYyBhcmd1bWVudHMsIHJlbGV2YW5jZSB0 byB5b3VyDQo+IHBhcnQgb2YgdGhlIHdvcmxkLCBhbmQgc28gb24sIHRoYXQncyBpbXBvcnRhbnQg dG9vLg0KPiANCj4gICAgIFNvIHVzaW5nIGFsbCBvZiBteSBmaW5nZXJzIGFuZCB0aHVtYnMsIFJv biBhbmQgSSBzZWUgYSB2ZW5kb3IgYW5kIHNldmVuDQo+IG9wZXJhdG9ycyB0aGF0IHdhbnQgdG8g c2VlIHRoaXMgYXMgYSB3b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIGRvY3VtZW50OyB3ZSBzZWUgZW5vdWdoIG9mDQo+ IGEgY29uc2Vuc3VzIGluIHRoYXQgcmVnYXJkLiBEdXJpbmcgTWF5LCB3ZSBpbnZpdGUgSm9yZGkg dG8gcmVwb3N0IGFzIGRyYWZ0LQ0KPiBpZXRmLXY2b3BzLXRyYW5zaXRpb24taXB2NGFhcywgYSB3 b3JraW5nIGdyb3VwIGRvY3VtZW50LiBJIG9idmlvdXNseSBleHBlY3QNCj4gSm9yZGkgdG8gd29y ayB3aXRoIHRoZSBvcGVyYXRvcnMgdGhhdCBjb21tZW50ZWQgb24gdGhlIHJlcXVpcmVtZW50cywg YW5kIHRvDQo+IGRpc2N1c3MgaXQgYXQgSUVURiAxMDIuIEluIG15IGRyZWFtcywgSSdkIGxpa2Ug dG8gcmVhY2ggY29uc2Vuc3VzIHRoZW4gb24gdGhlDQo+IGZlYXR1cmVzIGluIHF1ZXN0aW9uLg0K PiAgICAgX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4g ICAgIHY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiAgICAgdjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gICAgIGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdjZvcHMNCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+ ICoqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioNCj4gSVB2NCBp cyBvdmVyDQo+IEFyZSB5b3UgcmVhZHkgZm9yIHRoZSBuZXcgSW50ZXJuZXQgPw0KPiBodHRwOi8v d3d3LmNvbnN1bGludGVsLmVzDQo+IFRoZSBJUHY2IENvbXBhbnkNCj4gDQo+IFRoaXMgZWxlY3Ry b25pYyBtZXNzYWdlIGNvbnRhaW5zIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIHdoaWNoIG1heSBiZSBwcml2aWxlZ2Vk IG9yDQo+IGNvbmZpZGVudGlhbC4gVGhlIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uIGlzIGludGVuZGVkIHRvIGJlIGZv ciB0aGUgZXhjbHVzaXZlIHVzZSBvZiB0aGUNCj4gaW5kaXZpZHVhbChzKSBuYW1lZCBhYm92ZSBh bmQgZnVydGhlciBub24tZXhwbGljaWx0eSBhdXRob3JpemVkIGRpc2Nsb3N1cmUsDQo+IGNvcHlp bmcsIGRpc3RyaWJ1dGlvbiBvciB1c2Ugb2YgdGhlIGNvbnRlbnRzIG9mIHRoaXMgaW5mb3JtYXRp b24sIGV2ZW4gaWYNCj4gcGFydGlhbGx5LCBpbmNsdWRpbmcgYXR0YWNoZWQgZmlsZXMsIGlzIHN0 cmljdGx5IHByb2hpYml0ZWQgYW5kIHdpbGwgYmUNCj4gY29uc2lkZXJlZCBhIGNyaW1pbmFsIG9m ZmVuc2UuIElmIHlvdSBhcmUgbm90IHRoZSBpbnRlbmRlZCByZWNpcGllbnQgYmUgYXdhcmUNCj4g dGhhdCBhbnkgZGlzY2xvc3VyZSwgY29weWluZywgZGlzdHJpYnV0aW9uIG9yIHVzZSBvZiB0aGUg Y29udGVudHMgb2YgdGhpcw0KPiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiwgZXZlbiBpZiBwYXJ0aWFsbHksIGluY2x1 ZGluZyBhdHRhY2hlZCBmaWxlcywgaXMgc3RyaWN0bHkNCj4gcHJvaGliaXRlZCwgd2lsbCBiZSBj b25zaWRlcmVkIGEgY3JpbWluYWwgb2ZmZW5zZSwgc28geW91IG11c3QgcmVwbHkgdG8gdGhlDQo+ IG9yaWdpbmFsIHNlbmRlciB0byBpbmZvcm0gYWJvdXQgdGhpcyBjb21tdW5pY2F0aW9uIGFuZCBk ZWxldGUgaXQuDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IHY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiB2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0K PiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQo= From nobody Thu Apr 19 23:54:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 553DC12AF84 for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 23:54:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dpw4Gphb-kDf for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 23:54:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 88C87129C6B for ; Thu, 19 Apr 2018 23:54:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524207260; x=1524812060; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=MQE64Tv+ FQedw1GJC/cGIXsCYO2W7xodeqQ+TeBVMmM=; b=G3F1JOIkmxmjHmnVxYL0tq7G 6tsQ+ilpnYGlFr9k3okNGtJEqSloRzDH2uthwRSOd01gXVOusKDvSUOqIElCIg8z H850Eg4Rh2vdVEExFeKx8Hs93wyNAhGX1Wd36qyD2KNp0+q8UAcFg8FDwU9RAvCf QEh67d7y1TIq1yXdm/Q= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:54:20 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:54:20 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005754712.msg for ; Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:54:19 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:7557:e951:4af:c671 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:54:19 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1648015884=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 08:54:17 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <1A63FF17-6C1B-4946-9FF5-F6E9A4F37076@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> <29D3B2CE-C47B-4474-82F6-793122E99FF6@gmail.com> <776647C2-CB79-45F9-B48E-033E81035FCC@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF0E7E5@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF0E7E5@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Apr 2018 06:54:27 -0000 Hi Med, Thanks a lot, definitively will look into them. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Fecha: viernes, 20 de abril de 2018, 8:33 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Hi Jordi,=20 =20 As you are waiting for some inputs, you may find some at, fwiw:=20 =20 https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-palet= -v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-00-rev%20Med.doc=20 =20 Cheers, Med=20 =20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PALET = MARTINEZ > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 19 avril 2018 16:32 > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 > Thanks Fred, >=20 > My hope is that I can get new inputs during the next few days, togeth= er with > clarifications to those already received, and then we can try to have= ready a > WG-00 version by end of next week or early following one. >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: v6ops en nombre de Fred Baker > > Fecha: jueves, 19 de abril de 2018, 16:25 > Para: V6 Ops List > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 > On Apr 18, 2018, at 3:40 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > > The chairs would be interested to know how many do, and how man= y do > not, want that to happen. If you have specific arguments, relevance t= o your > part of the world, and so on, that's important too. >=20 > So using all of my fingers and thumbs, Ron and I see a vendor and= seven > operators that want to see this as a working group document; we see e= nough of > a consensus in that regard. During May, we invite Jordi to repost as = draft- > ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas, a working group document. I obviously = expect > Jordi to work with the operators that commented on the requirements, = and to > discuss it at IETF 102. In my dreams, I'd like to reach consensus the= n on the > features in question. > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use= of the > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized discl= osure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve= n if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will = be > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient = be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of = this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply = to the > original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. 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([2601:646:c005:a10:183d:47df:6f1c:eee3]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d199sm17995380pfd.95.2018.04.21.22.02.10 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:02:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_59F9ED9C-C27A-4940-A985-32058219BF13"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:02:09 -0700 Message-Id: <51367088-D4C3-4CF3-84D2-8D39BAEDC57F@gmail.com> To: V6 Ops List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 05:02:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_59F9ED9C-C27A-4940-A985-32058219BF13 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii As discussed at IETF 101, we are opening a Working Group Last Call on = draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras. Please read the draft now. The chairs = need to understand both whether you think this is valuable in an = operational environment such as yours, and if there are issues in the = draft, what those might be. This will close April 8. --Apple-Mail=_59F9ED9C-C27A-4940-A985-32058219BF13 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlrcF1IACgkQEhdRnd2G P+A8cg//WHYoaJjeMKxXPqcy/KD9RqvoiwiPa19p+djdANI+NuXxoIHe4mscFSZm tAYIiLuiTDP48WMH/LhrsDhAkMDoPxKbsGWPEYn+BA6DYq3TajLK5crF3YtkJ1Mr nz+DjxKnCFL/FZbfB+bdpVHKp4zWa47hDTp6wKVLGuCVA9lIPwErvPWtTS5mMgxP 6BVsrkShNobkwgYppWaI4oQx1Yb2pueeER06Etyrp8w+2X0yz1nwj45KWoM34oFI iet0SNjMcDgj/Qcxg8iPQVDTFQ93Dar916fDiLhiDQefR3VFbJw7wA7JUHQxy7SF TBKVve4XHSsVWuy8NURCz79hf3gNutGj8eQpYNJKf3H9wpxb7k/VkjLodlDwjzF8 e0BLCJB2Vg1zH6VsYJgfSNqm17/xdjMm8X0QxgWKjm8HZjEePG8IYN+j2XhPomxO rP+Vvk1wNVRtWNlt3c76IF7L8HvW8a+0SRR1DxUt9VKb7f2Ngd2q4TUdTYjnfzgU 6g6tngTYs7VvhlPsevcxR8GlQiYXFnFp9vXkJ1l6KrZXoIkxiNpLIALaWFBgIGck TkSGlV/nCLZn7URHfJ3yyvEDbiY7FB6lOW4FtwXbfzPwSB1fYEBkw3dxvBQ8uPIE KAaxNrEaUfDMPLCJbJZoozTI0KlrDTSYybqZnwaeCeDGoluHZgQ= =UVyV -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_59F9ED9C-C27A-4940-A985-32058219BF13-- From nobody Sat Apr 21 22:02:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0B26C124BFA for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:02:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id UH5aW_DEOfty for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22b.google.com (mail-pf0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B34041270AC for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id g14so6584978pfh.3 for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:02:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:date:subject:message-id:to; bh=3qdJjT1oXA1o6iKCT0A1gCj9lTvTghHbAWI+oaA6/pw=; b=b3S1iHM1kZz/EBIIPOtF2VMrOTlbousHcMoDV2JcIA8FUzrAA5TIt7rW23dGFsLwJS FLyxeCUQYBVeMbkBHC+OZZmPuvZ4c7j8xzIT0VJdz+YLpIKYsb1TaqDRfSegvHPVJx9+ /LRcFS775aT6cHkGG8m/buayyKDjOnljh5sNAFTvzQswHLvAUTz7yXxsmjWcE9+IPr7J 7oPrxIJVJVF22SUhbCq3QkTAY909UWm7pdsvMsxQFdKMJwWNJokFTvZtaqIqSRMwGAhO NUPzat3FlMKIg22DllWgU0UqBjjsX3SSiER7ZeX/od7QrW+KnRyl9Q0FN/2ld5ufKx9+ L8DQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:subject:message-id:to; bh=3qdJjT1oXA1o6iKCT0A1gCj9lTvTghHbAWI+oaA6/pw=; b=bE5ULZYSoeGcBAMYH+KHhCVTVkbVw2jNyTaBTq33snMFc7wu0IXPshiaL0ZhwOJHIW GP0+/AG6p0xfVGu3ttNBLuuPgzkagnka8aZuSX1w2BtirdNZ1HusqnaoCTtwriJahCBY Jy4U8wdH2ubfIjto2QSku2e5eKDNCUlXmq9tVlqq8LvRLnq4DeUvDVw5KfdCPTR2Btqu mANB+pbPwgXfYi6W6aPdnzqFqQ47DfDaljI0JZTzEcVvhRt8OcefdKro5tmz+TcCy+rY 3rzNnWlZriXWn4JPDdtSJFXUcx2y0MAh4f7aej5gPTLEAZ6SDX49LqDHKujw7VwjlKZi Qz1A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCF1GG5FwetElmZz2QSzFj1cBBF02HsmGIv94HiWA9JEenS+esh QXkMGWX7PPH8WFzLNGsZrMc9tgan X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx49JEVkXXNdMKq1BVMnzbBtUvmJ9jiynodIcz0YLkgAN0raFsnZLsFw74EtRQOzxzyPpY+QN4g== X-Received: by 10.101.100.214 with SMTP id t22mr7993040pgv.41.1524373334197; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:02:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:646:c005:a10:183d:47df:6f1c:eee3? ([2601:646:c005:a10:183d:47df:6f1c:eee3]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id d199sm17995380pfd.95.2018.04.21.22.02.12 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:02:12 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8640EA19-8061-4E2E-8DD7-F64C1BA42228"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:02:10 -0700 Message-Id: <50C481AD-E925-4610-B174-6499648327EC@gmail.com> To: V6 Ops List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 05:02:16 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8640EA19-8061-4E2E-8DD7-F64C1BA42228 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented draft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links. = The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links, = and his presentation deck is at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/https://datatracker.iet= f.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-ipv6-point-to-point-links-00.= I would like to invite discussion. This includes the question of whether = it should be a working group draft, and whether it makes useful = recommendations for your operational environment. --Apple-Mail=_8640EA19-8061-4E2E-8DD7-F64C1BA42228 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlrcF1MACgkQEhdRnd2G P+C8ChAAi/fJ4k6OHOSHNIR6EGEElVaq2Ut2XYzeeDX+4h6DFsGb/lzUSzUtFS2h NR0XpMuFOiKXeH1+C9Yxn7uuGjFZxfe3j0CaDIoZaW4eURuPfNJhXNIg+0mO3MdK lKKLZ0NNtaknnNyesqwtDDH2w3IW706N69CPI/FZW8pJ7XVgeHt+tINEOl1wXqLN jRkDhukH29nxmboieJQlfwCRRp2mZl/GOkcI48yxfaPN9J9IgPrRswn61yXQsGcB +hVKTFBfKe10lbX0Lc3zp8jpWGIKcAQ+tVXA7kyBNK2OBEkFweLU/CZTFpnAieP6 UebdzZ0+hTTmOUzgp/Xhafgu/xdRHEnPOFkmmqUOtkaJRjpSWAEP6tq1a27Xp9f3 9nnbq8uakraBlUqYHL07PFkMSjM97Mm+5srWEsf1/QNWqGlQnG7w2NvnspN0jqhJ CzQcjHoKLZYpBIfZzcHBcca44eX0gwteEeaQK1+dkyVtByKC0UhPp8SnVZpdi6fg 68lZAh364ICBMbw7EkYCUIMqozOQJ739ITRRUIdPc8zEbPCfELc1/FK9djsK0S1Z RCOx6VD7SqXAXp5rm0MGtOFSLj5PYFN5M2E1Y4lUvT/Lf6itjvorwN+1rjPR86lR g6ssFJsXtmbv90mqr+g6PdH2cm7ok7W9Kj2/WIBKCoTrbn2NcIU= =QWvP -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_8640EA19-8061-4E2E-8DD7-F64C1BA42228-- From nobody Sat Apr 21 22:16:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 11436126DEE for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:16:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 2SzLEDZjN1Ee for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:16:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22b.google.com (mail-wr0-x22b.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22b]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EF75E124BFA for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:16:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22b.google.com with SMTP id s18-v6so32456683wrg.9 for ; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:16:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=6P76fGuTAWNjJtdUNfL6VD1qio5yb8eO/I05IpMQemQ=; b=d38MgdsjYCaweqIiux+K6Pp0AEVD/ncphQPNWiuYdXhWV0dmmDgS0uSBLeNZX2nxGL YDeEM/VBcEQEMdypZvpkGBxaw1dnlt9xycwxAVbENsyIx+PFkeTkO6wxWiIhcA9t/fHx QHFIfsOnM5nDLIVNOPOPl6BnPcsFtFoOuQ5GIz9Lfl6paaNb56US0uIdk8yy0evZ6EJ2 z8OVk9iTzfCS8Na7GnhVXM9j4wGuI1UzEmbTQ416mBcUPpb/Ghwwo0AeHXu9MfFSn8uj o82TX0xcXYFr7kRdc8q6pE7Zjt9DTr+jo02zAb6hHtoTvWYFf/YdesEd1FwGvec29TT2 0aBw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=6P76fGuTAWNjJtdUNfL6VD1qio5yb8eO/I05IpMQemQ=; b=c0YhH1S39H4323pNd8fdEBiNASKqiLArVBS6yLUbzNecvH35tDz32XJQR+pSmjynZU ZExxNRs/oqwBCFpaG8KoWo/0GzLdTBc+kszRpVtaHSSTVlt7JaaGE3LdvIO/QHTJNkFv Bod/k++25sWj1uYwhCS8Q2wkyhRYosMbh8FvpYwvmRkJ3Vr4HeQnZcWc1NhyqLte5YFc NR5O2h6MRKu5dQKUqMKajhet88Lxn5weKtFwr5+bJmmr3XgDSc3tWHrb/kSCEfoCfgmE EyU9pl6LEwIkQRjyyCUYyj1MKfxpGDcSGDNb15iQDqzckulO9YxpFGaaX50w5u5dt9Wu yPMw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tBAv4zd4RJa24rCLgmtsrYuweWnbBC5U7KE05TiLMRg58T4qnBV kR9cCjAW93XN+FE1Afs7HUOgXu1r X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/cYacFXo3B15LOAvous0ldPGTUUMDlXGIBwlcSKzpBqaRDn1SEqDwcb71DvRV/TGx+KI8XEQ== X-Received: by 10.80.178.161 with SMTP id p30mr17737247edd.22.1524374189310; Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:646:c005:a10:183d:47df:6f1c:eee3? ([2601:646:c005:a10:183d:47df:6f1c:eee3]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n8sm6093123edb.5.2018.04.21.22.16.27 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:16:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_F0D9A3D7-EFE8-4282-A2D9-05C585CE33BD"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Sat, 21 Apr 2018 22:16:24 -0700 References: <51367088-D4C3-4CF3-84D2-8D39BAEDC57F@gmail.com> To: V6 Ops List In-Reply-To: <51367088-D4C3-4CF3-84D2-8D39BAEDC57F@gmail.com> Message-Id: <9FBED57E-D958-4253-B687-09FA48ED200A@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2018 05:16:33 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_F0D9A3D7-EFE8-4282-A2D9-05C585CE33BD Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Apologies on this one. A ghost from last month, I guess. > On Apr 21, 2018, at 10:02 PM, Fred Baker = wrote: >=20 > As discussed at IETF 101, we are opening a Working Group Last Call on = draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras. Please read the draft now. The chairs = need to understand both whether you think this is valuable in an = operational environment such as yours, and if there are issues in the = draft, what those might be. This will close April 8. >=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_F0D9A3D7-EFE8-4282-A2D9-05C585CE33BD Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlrcGqgACgkQEhdRnd2G P+AVMQ/9FzZDUc2WAhN8UYImaP5jctmR7+zRx6FhZbYIKQgj+JK3cTOwGMVmhyFS ZzJwIdpiOH1D08/c739IcUFZUYzlscRkWpgg3KUnO326hbXo0SUAQ7kP8PtDkvqa /PSjEOkjsSBlp2G5+l8va9gEvVb+h+DflENHX2NiCy8GTodZX/TQRe6KxjmHfyVA UkM7TbnSaKVFTUf7TUFe12799FZLXBVjohckmgqk+LiVFmvG2rkO7aFbMfqhpKAk o+gcd1lzWsyC/F7rZBR2jI47t/yo6chlsRWnVTpGG12iEv+D/nc/rtG1fVFDpnox 9Syo6KHDWRaA4LT5d7M2LKhU3uGg/HClbhfZNyZrd0DlmT7LUmbGvhgn0aeQT7uK ApYnpPkMlAUYFum8MiTTwiO08BrlcwqUc3834lTLg6ZwWNpCysitaiaB7/6LdePk 49vHnYj3RlvSOuXQOzmLeaovuDDj9jQ3D9hrB/lsVr2Kh3vNDofJjO6SIlUY4srM p7qA5LPukrbmUT7MlEAEYCKTtbv42hUAOVf/TnOMXiuDtfXF5QDeH/kh1A26Shp4 HaNF3oL6WC0voRVtYcN7jLQ4BBiCiyWx1/JHCw48Hso10yZ6Vn5T4j+m16rzLolE hKuEwCo7aflEZWXBWBoqFGSZwI2Vi6q+BQBB57GmFNsw5D4zMHY= =Jpah -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_F0D9A3D7-EFE8-4282-A2D9-05C585CE33BD-- From nobody Mon Apr 23 07:58:18 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id DCF22129C6E for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 07:58:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.234 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.234 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=no autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wFNGa7MQ0ATY for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 07:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from atl4mhob15.registeredsite.com (atl4mhob15.registeredsite.com [209.17.115.53]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 61D2B1270A7 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 07:58:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailpod.hostingplatform.com (atl4qobmail02pod6.registeredsite.com [10.30.71.210]) by atl4mhob15.registeredsite.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w3NEw4Cq003728 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 10:58:04 -0400 Received: (qmail 28665 invoked by uid 0); 23 Apr 2018 14:58:04 -0000 X-TCPREMOTEIP: 174.64.33.182 X-Authenticated-UID: lee@asgard.org Received: from unknown (HELO ?192.168.2.102?) (lee@asgard.org@174.64.33.182) by 0 with ESMTPA; 23 Apr 2018 14:58:04 -0000 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <43764aef-3aef-4269-cba8-94685ee4673f@asgard.org> <0E1B8753-34F9-47DC-8CAD-93A0CF81BAB3@consulintel.es> From: Lee Howard Message-ID: <44dc3787-47db-9369-05a2-83964e525c96@asgard.org> Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 10:58:03 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <0E1B8753-34F9-47DC-8CAD-93A0CF81BAB3@consulintel.es> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------CEB89606633081861F76A35F" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 14:58:16 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------CEB89606633081861F76A35F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 04/18/2018 03:34 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote: > > Hi Lee, > > Thanks a lot for your comments. > > I will review them in detail in a couple of days, in case there are > other inputs, so we can work out a new version and hopefully publish > already as WG item. > > Anyway, I’ve read all them and I think I agree in most of them. > > I’ve now only a few quick comments/question, in order to help with a > good review of our actual text: > > 1. I think this document is also for small and medium ISPs, only big > ones have the power to specify the set of features they need. Not > sure if your second sentence disagree with that. > Yes, I agree. If it sounded like I didn't agree, I misspoke. Small ISPs can select vendors who provide the features they want, but because of their small purchases, they cannot specify new features. > 1. 1.1 was taken from RFC7084. Do you think it will be better to use > the standard RFC2119 boilerplate? > No, I agree with the wording. I just think it's important to note the difference for people who read a lot of RFCs. > > 1. I think the usage scenarios is important to readers that may be > don’t have a clear view on what is the CE we are talking about, > and in fact it was requested in one of the previous v6ops > presentations. Anyway, I will try to make it more “compressedâ€. > 2. The “dynamic routing†comes from the original rfc7084, which > turned into the rfc7084-bis. I will check that from all my version > history on this document … and clarify or delete it. > 3. I’m not 100% sure to understand your comment on the CLAT. I think > one of the keys is to allow deploying IPv6-only access while users > still can use devices in their LANs until they have incentives to > replace them, otherwise, customers will complain when they get > IPv6-only services (if using CLAT it is transparent for them). > CLAT can provide a NAT46, but then we need a also DNS46 ? If I got > you correctly, it is good that there is an incentive for replacing > IPv4-only devices because at some point there may be IPv6-only > services … so I think we should not make any new transition > mechanism to solve that problem? > Yes, you're right. Nevermind. > > 1. I think you mean “IPv4 service continuity†(not capitalized) > Yes. > 1. Regarding 6rd, you mean this document should update RFC7084 and > remove 6rd requirements? I will agree on that … > Yes. Lee > Thanks! > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > *De: *v6ops en nombre de Lee Howard > > *Fecha: *miércoles, 18 de abril de 2018, 20:18 > *Para: * > *Asunto: *Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion > > I think this document is needed. > > When ISPs buy equipment for customers, they can specify which set of > features they want. > > When customers buy their own equipment, they can choose from whatever > is on the shelf. > > In order to effect a transition to IPv6, customer edge routers will > need to support transition mechanisms. Since a CE router manufacturer > can't know which transition mechanism will be used by any/all ISPs in > the market where it will need to be sold, they will need to support > the most likely mechanisms. > > So, this document specifies behavior for retail-marketed devices, not > buyer-specified devices. If an ISP wants fewer features to save cost > or for security, she may specify that. It means that CE router is less > likely to work if the consumer takes it to a competitor ISP, but I can > live with that. > > Comments on the document: > > Introduction, Paragraph 3: > > It's a run-on sentence that makes the features sound unnecessary until > there is an IPv6-only network in place. Since CE routers have a > lifetime of 7-15 years, I think that's too late. Suggest rewording it to: > > This document covers the IP transition technologies required when >    ISPs have an IPv6-only access network. This is a >    common situation in a world where IPv4 addresses are no longer >    available, so the service providers need to provision IPv6-only WAN >    access. At the same time, they need to ensure that both IPv4-only and >    IPv6-only devices or applications in the customer networks, can still >    reach IPv4-only devices or applications in the Internet. > > Paragraph 7: > Based on my comments above, I would like to reword this paragraph to: > > >    Service providers who specify feature sets for CE routers may specify >    a different set of features than those included in this document. >    Since it is impossible to know prior to sale which transition >    mechanism a device will need over the lifetime of the device, IPv6 CE >    transition routers intended for the retail market must support all >    of them. > > > I agree with the note in 1.1 Requirements Language, but almost glossed > over it because it looks at first like RFC2119 boilerplate. Maybe > revise the heading to "Requirements Language - Special Note"? Also, > "preferable" should be "preferably.." > > I'm using the same language in comments that you do in the document, > but "IPv6 transition Customer Edge Router with IPv4aaS" is long, and > even the shortened version is cumbersome. Can we revise the > terminology to say that "CE Router" used in this document means "a > Customer Edge router with support for IPv6 transition mechanisms," > unless specified as "a CE Router without transition mechanism > support"? Also, need to expand the acronym "IPv4aaS" and define it.. > > 3. Usage Scenarios > I'm not sure this section is needed; I think you've successfully made > this argument earlier in the document, and I think anyone with even a > faint familiarity with the transition understand the points being made > here. If you disagree and want to keep it: > > Paragraph 1 nit:  "situation before described" -> "situation > previously described" or "situation described above". > > Paragraph 2 nit: "may be" -> "it may be that" > > "customer churn. . . " would read better as: > >    consumers may switch ISPs and use the same CE router with an ISP that >    provides IPv4-only and an ISP that provides IPv6 plus IPv4aaS. > > > Paragraph 3 nit: "it is required an IPv6 transition CE" -> "an IPv6 > transition CE is required that" > > "accommodating to" -> "accommodate" > > Remove "as it may be or not provided by the service provider" > > I'd remove the sentence "Even may be a point..." Not only is it > grammatically impenetrable, increasing competition isn't a goal of > this document (or of the IETF, or operators, or CE vendors). > > The "Moreover" paragraph: > >    Moreover, because some services will remain IPv4-only for an >    undetermined time, and some service providers will remain IPv4-only >    for an undetermined period of time, IPv4 will be needed for an >    undetermined period of time. There will be a need for CEs >    with support "IPv4 as a Service" for an undetermined period of time. > > > As I said above, I don't think the numbered list is needed, especially > when four of them are the same, and two others are the same. I don't > know what "exporting services to the WAN" means. Does this just mean > "allowing inbound connections"? > > The "The main difference" paragraph seems to say that, but it doesn't > quite. I think if you're going to sidestep the issue of allowing > inbound connections, you need to be much more explicit about it. For > instance: > >    An IPv6 transition CE might allow inbound connections over IPv6, >    with appropriate firewall rules and DNS entries. Several IPv4aaS >    implementations do not allow for port forwarding to CE routers, >    and the configuration and troubleshooting of port forwarding may >    be complicated. > > > The "For example" paragraph adds no clarity. The number of users has > no bearing on the functionality, at least as far as you've described. > > Second-to-last paragraph: "aspects" should be "features" > > I'd rewrite the sentence "In fact, in many cases" to: > >    In fact, in many cases, the user must supply or may replace >    the IPv6 Transition CE router; this makes even more >    relevant that all the IPv6 Transition CE routers support the same >    requirements defined in this document. > > > Last paragraph of Section 3: "may have" -> "they may have" > > Section 4. End-User Network Architecture > "precedent" -> "preceding" > > "behind it" -> "upstream" > > 4th paragraph: "the latest" -> "that" > Although I'm not sure why PCP isn't part of the sentence with > UPnP-IGD, and from the previous section, I thought you weren't going > to discuss this. > > The "Another consequence" paragraph seems to say that IPv4+NAT is a > feature for address stability, but then falls silent on address > stability in IPv6. I know you don't want to say ULA (and I don't want > to make it a target for Lorenzo), but if you're going to say anything, > you have to be honest about it. > > "Many existing routers support dynamic routing."  What? Consumer Edge > routers? That is not my experience at all, and if it were common, we > could have avoided two years of fighting in Homenet. > > In the requirements section, I would like to see every instance of an > RFC number accompanied by the title of that RFC. It helps with > context. Plus, every requirement needs text explaining why it is a > requirement. Sections 5.1 and 5.2 do neither of those. > > The first two sentences of 5.3 Transition Technologies Support... are > broken up poorly. Suggest: > >    The main target of this document is the support of IPv6-only WAN >    access. To enable legacy IPv4 functionality, this document also >    includes the support of IPv4-only devices and >    applications in the customers LANs, as well as IPv4-only services >    on the Internet. Thus, both IPv4-only and the IPv6-only devices >    inside the CE are able to reach the IPv4-only services. > > > It makes me wonder that we don't need a solution for IPv4-only devices > to reach IPv6-only services/content on the Internet. I suppose the > market means that's not required, and frankly I'm satisfied with > EOLing IPv4-only devices as content moves to IPv4-meh. We could in > theory include CLAT by itself? > > I don't think IPv6 "Service Continuity" should be capitalized. > > 464XLAT-1 > > unless there is a match with a valid >                OPTION_S46_PRIORITY > > Shouldn't the CE Router process those options in order, and once one > works, stop? Wouldn't it be clearer to say it that was in TRANS-1, and > not have to repeat it later? > > 464XLAT-3 > > In environments with PCP support > > How do you know if there's PCP support? > > Section 5.3.2 says "If DS-Lite is implemented, lw4o6 MUST be supported > as well." Why? > > I like sections 7 Code Considerations and 8 Security Considerations. > You might mention the Security Considerations sections of each of the > transition mechanism RFCs, too. > > I would be in favor of removing the 6rd requirement implied by > RFC7048. If anyone is planning 6rd deployments, I'd be very surprised. > > Lee > > > On 04/15/2018 01:00 AM, Fred Baker wrote: > > At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented > draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas. The draft is at > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas, > and his presentation deck is at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transition-requirements-for-ipv6-ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00. > > I would like to invite discussion. > > In particular, this draft derives from > draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, and the chairs wonder if it should > be reposted as the next version of draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. > That should happen if an only if the working group thinks it > should be published as an RFC (now or at some point) adding > considerations for implementors of RFC 7084 and also implementing > transition services. > > A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many > transition mechanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold > that opinion, if you could give that advice, identify the > mechanism or mechanisms you think should be listed, and indicate > the reasoning behind your viewpoint. For example, if you think > MAP-T should be listed, it would be helpful to know what operators > are implementing MAP-T and are looking for CE Routers that support > it. The same comment applies to any such mechanism or service. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company > > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged > or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive > use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty > authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of > this information, even if partially, including attached files, is > strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you > are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be > considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original > sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --------------CEB89606633081861F76A35F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit



On 04/18/2018 03:34 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:

Hi Lee,

 

Thanks a lot for your comments.

 

I will review them in detail in a couple of days, in case there are other inputs, so we can work out a new version and hopefully publish already as WG item.

 

Anyway, I’ve read all them and I think I agree in most of them.

 

I’ve now only a few quick comments/question, in order to help with a good review of our actual text:

  1. I think this document is also for small and medium ISPs, only big ones have the power to specify the set of features they need. Not sure if your second sentence disagree with that.

Yes, I agree. If it sounded like I didn't agree, I misspoke. Small ISPs can select vendors who provide the features they want, but because of their small purchases, they cannot specify new features.

  1. 1.1 was taken from RFC7084. Do you think it will be better to use the standard RFC2119 boilerplate?

No, I agree with the wording. I just think it's important to note the difference for people who read a lot of RFCs.
  1. I think the usage scenarios is important to readers that may be don’t have a clear view on what is the CE we are talking about, and in fact it was requested in one of the previous v6ops presentations. Anyway, I will try to make it more “compressedâ€.
  2. The “dynamic routing†comes from the original rfc7084, which turned into the rfc7084-bis. I will check that from all my version history on this document … and clarify or delete it.
  3. I’m not 100% sure to understand your comment on the CLAT. I think one of the keys is to allow deploying IPv6-only access while users still can use devices in their LANs until they have incentives to replace them, otherwise, customers will complain when they get IPv6-only services (if using CLAT it is transparent for them). CLAT can provide a NAT46, but then we need a also DNS46 ? If I got you correctly, it is good that there is an incentive for replacing IPv4-only devices because at some point there may be IPv6-only services … so I think we should not make any new transition mechanism to solve that problem?

Yes, you're right. Nevermind.
  1. I think you mean “IPv4 service continuity†(not capitalized)

Yes.

  1. Regarding 6rd, you mean this document should update RFC7084 and remove 6rd requirements? I will agree on that …

Yes.

Lee

 

Thanks!


Regards,

Jordi

 

 

De: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de Lee Howard <lee@asgard..org>
Fecha: miércoles, 18 de abril de 2018, 20:18
Para: <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion

 

I think this document is needed.

When ISPs buy equipment for customers, they can specify which set of features they want.

When customers buy their own equipment, they can choose from whatever is on the shelf.

In order to effect a transition to IPv6, customer edge routers will need to support transition mechanisms. Since a CE router manufacturer can't know which transition mechanism will be used by any/all ISPs in the market where it will need to be sold, they will need to support the most likely mechanisms.

So, this document specifies behavior for retail-marketed devices, not buyer-specified devices. If an ISP wants fewer features to save cost or for security, she may specify that. It means that CE router is less likely to work if the consumer takes it to a competitor ISP, but I can live with that.

Comments on the document:

Introduction, Paragraph 3:

It's a run-on sentence that makes the features sound unnecessary until there is an IPv6-only network in place. Since CE routers have a lifetime of 7-15 years, I think that's too late. Suggest rewording it to:

This document covers the IP transition technologies required when
   ISPs have an IPv6-only access network. This is a
   common situation in a world where IPv4 addresses are no longer
   available, so the service providers need to provision IPv6-only WAN
   access. At the same time, they need to ensure that both IPv4-only and
   IPv6-only devices or applications in the customer networks, can still
   reach IPv4-only devices or applications in the Internet.
 

Paragraph 7:
Based on my comments above, I would like to reword this paragraph to:


   Service providers who specify feature sets for CE routers may specify
   a different set of features than those included in this document. 
   Since it is impossible to know prior to sale which transition 
   mechanism a device will need over the lifetime of the device, IPv6 CE 
   transition routers intended for the retail market must support all 
   of them.


I agree with the note in 1.1 Requirements Language, but almost glossed over it because it looks at first like RFC2119 boilerplate. Maybe revise the heading to "Requirements Language - Special Note"? Also, "preferable" should be "preferably.."

I'm using the same language in comments that you do in the document, but "IPv6 transition Customer Edge Router with IPv4aaS" is long, and even the shortened version is cumbersome. Can we revise the terminology to say that "CE Router" used in this document means "a Customer Edge router with support for IPv6 transition mechanisms," unless specified as "a CE Router without transition mechanism support"? Also, need to expand the acronym "IPv4aaS" and define it..

3. Usage Scenarios
I'm not sure this section is needed; I think you've successfully made this argument earlier in the document, and I think anyone with even a faint familiarity with the transition understand the points being made here. If you disagree and want to keep it:

Paragraph 1 nit:  "situation before described" -> "situation previously described" or "situation described above".

Paragraph 2 nit: "may be" -> "it may be that"

"customer churn. . . " would read better as:

   consumers may switch ISPs and use the same CE router with an ISP that
   provides IPv4-only and an ISP that provides IPv6 plus IPv4aaS.


Paragraph 3 nit: "it is required an IPv6 transition CE" -> "an IPv6 transition CE is required that"

"accommodating to" -> "accommodate"

Remove "as it may be or not provided by the service provider"

I'd remove the sentence "Even may be a point..." Not only is it grammatically impenetrable, increasing competition isn't a goal of this document (or of the IETF, or operators, or CE vendors).

The "Moreover" paragraph:

   Moreover, because some services will remain IPv4-only for an
   undetermined time, and some service providers will remain IPv4-only 
   for an undetermined period of time, IPv4 will be needed for an 
   undetermined period of time. There will be a need for CEs 
   with support "IPv4 as a Service" for an undetermined period of time.


As I said above, I don't think the numbered list is needed, especially when four of them are the same, and two others are the same. I don't know what "exporting services to the WAN" means. Does this just mean "allowing inbound connections"?

The "The main difference" paragraph seems to say that, but it doesn't quite. I think if you're going to sidestep the issue of allowing inbound connections, you need to be much more explicit about it. For instance:

   An IPv6 transition CE might allow inbound connections over IPv6,
   with appropriate firewall rules and DNS entries. Several IPv4aaS
   implementations do not allow for port forwarding to CE routers,
   and the configuration and troubleshooting of port forwarding may
   be complicated.


The "For example" paragraph adds no clarity. The number of users has no bearing on the functionality, at least as far as you've described.

Second-to-last paragraph: "aspects" should be "features"

I'd rewrite the sentence "In fact, in many cases" to:

   In fact, in many cases, the user must supply or may replace
   the IPv6 Transition CE router; this makes even more
   relevant that all the IPv6 Transition CE routers support the same
   requirements defined in this document.


Last paragraph of Section 3: "may have" -> "they may have"

Section 4. End-User Network Architecture
"precedent" -> "preceding"

"behind it" -> "upstream"

4th paragraph: "the latest" -> "that"
Although I'm not sure why PCP isn't part of the sentence with UPnP-IGD, and from the previous section, I thought you weren't going to discuss this.

The "Another consequence" paragraph seems to say that IPv4+NAT is a feature for address stability, but then falls silent on address stability in IPv6. I know you don't want to say ULA (and I don't want to make it a target for Lorenzo), but if you're going to say anything, you have to be honest about it.

"Many existing routers support dynamic routing."  What? Consumer Edge routers? That is not my experience at all, and if it were common, we could have avoided two years of fighting in Homenet.

In the requirements section, I would like to see every instance of an RFC number accompanied by the title of that RFC. It helps with context. Plus, every requirement needs text explaining why it is a requirement. Sections 5.1 and 5.2 do neither of those.

The first two sentences of 5.3 Transition Technologies Support... are broken up poorly. Suggest:

   The main target of this document is the support of IPv6-only WAN
   access. To enable legacy IPv4 functionality, this document also
   includes the support of IPv4-only devices and
   applications in the customers LANs, as well as IPv4-only services
   on the Internet. Thus, both IPv4-only and the IPv6-only devices 
   inside the CE are able to reach the IPv4-only services.


It makes me wonder that we don't need a solution for IPv4-only devices to reach IPv6-only services/content on the Internet. I suppose the market means that's not required, and frankly I'm satisfied with EOLing IPv4-only devices as content moves to IPv4-meh. We could in theory include CLAT by itself?

I don't think IPv6 "Service Continuity" should be capitalized.

464XLAT-1  

unless there is a match with a valid
               OPTION_S46_PRIORITY

Shouldn't the CE Router process those options in order, and once one works, stop? Wouldn't it be clearer to say it that was in TRANS-1, and not have to repeat it later?

464XLAT-3 

In environments with PCP support

How do you know if there's PCP support?

Section 5.3.2 says "If DS-Lite is implemented, lw4o6 MUST be supported as well." Why?

I like sections 7 Code Considerations and 8 Security Considerations. You might mention the Security Considerations sections of each of the transition mechanism RFCs, too.
 
I would be in favor of removing the 6rd requirement implied by RFC7048. If anyone is planning 6rd deployments, I'd be very surprised.

Lee


On 04/15/2018 01:00 AM, Fred Baker wrote:

At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transition-requirements-for-ipv6-ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00.
 
I would like to invite discussion.
 
In particular, this draft derives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, and the chairs wonder if it should be reposted as the next version of draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That should happen if an only if the working group thinks it should be published as an RFC (now or at some point) adding considerations for implementors of RFC 7084 and also implementing transition services.
 
A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many transition mechanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that opinion, if you could give that advice, identify the mechanism or mechanisms you think should be listed, and indicate the reasoning behind your viewpoint. For example, if you think MAP-T should be listed, it would be helpful to know what operators are implementing MAP-T and are looking for CE Routers that support it. The same comment applies to any such mechanism or service.
 
 




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--------------CEB89606633081861F76A35F-- From nobody Mon Apr 23 09:07:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 871D312D7E5 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:07:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0OvYzzswXmoK for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:06:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE1DC124319 for ; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3NG6tOa028873; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 18:06:55 +0200 Received: from localhost.localdomain (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with ESMTP id B8C4F2078B6; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 18:06:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from pisaure by pisaure with queue id 6457278-2; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 16:06:55 GMT Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8DFE92013BD; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 18:06:55 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3NG6tvO032207; Mon, 23 Apr 2018 18:06:55 +0200 To: Erik Kline Cc: Dmytro Shytyi , v6ops , CAMPO Giorgio References: <162dab02960.c629492b49487.3795432881225509607@shytyi.net> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 18:06:55 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-01.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Apr 2018 16:07:00 -0000 Hi Erik, Thanks for the comment. Le 19/04/2018 à 08:53, Erik Kline a écrit : > I've only scanned the document quickly, but I'm curious: in which > ways is this different from regular CPE behaviour where, say, the CPE > has an LTE interface for connection to the Internet? There is probably no difference: the CPE connects its LTE interface to the Internet, just like the ARM or the laptop in figures on pages 7 and 8 respectively connect their modem or USB dongles. The CPE, just like the ARM, or like the laptop, will run a DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation Client. We could describe that CPE-with-LTE in a new figure, if necessary. But I would request to be hinted by someone explaining that DHCPv6_PD on CPE with LTE interface was tried and it worked with a /56. (there are a few kinds of CPE using LTE to go to Internet: either use an internal LTE modem card, or an USB dongle or maybe a user's smartphone; in this latter case the DHCPv6-PD Client would not run on the CPE but on the smartphone, and so there would be more differences than what we describe in the draft; so only someone who tried DHCPv6-PD on CPE with cellular and made it work would hint about how it worked). Alex > > On 19 April 2018 at 06:36, Dmytro Shytyi wrote: >> Dear v6opsers, >> >> We are happy to introduce the new version (v.01) of the DANIR draft. >> It has a new figure that describes the setting that works entirely with >> DHCPv6-PD. >> Please have a look by following the next link: >> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-01 >> >> >> Name: draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir >> Revision: 01 >> Title: DHCPv6_PD, PDP and NDP Implementation in IoT Router (DANIR) >> Group: Individual Submission >> Pages: 18 >> Abstract: >> This document provides a description of the implementation of Dynamic >> Host Configuration Protocol version 6 Prefix Delegation, Neighbour >> Discovery Protocol and of the use of the Packet Data Protocol in an >> Internet of Things Router. This Internet of Things Router is >> connected on a cellular network; it is a DHCPv6-PD Client and it >> requests a /56 pool of prefixes from the server; the DHCPv6-PD server >> is placed in the PGW and is a part of the cellular infrastructure. >> After the pool of prefixes is delegated, the Internet of Things >> Router derives sub-prefixes from the prefix pool; each one of these >> sub-prefixes is aimed at one ingress interface. >> >> After the Internet of Things Router finishes the network prefix >> assignment procedure, it advertises the network prefixes on the >> ingress links by using the Neighbour Discovery protocol. Finally, >> when Hosts receive the sub-prefixes via Router Adverticement >> messages, they configure the Global Unique Address with the Stateless >> Address Auto-configuration protocol. >> _____________ >> Dmytro SHYTYI >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> From nobody Tue Apr 24 01:45:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 16CDA126DEE for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 01:44:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KJYN6pwbCjHq for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 01:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E3D8124BFA for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 01:44:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3O8isND030614 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 10:44:54 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id B1C78202D1A for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 10:44:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id A805520134B for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 10:44:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3O8isIH007570 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 10:44:54 +0200 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <162dab02960.c629492b49487.3795432881225509607@shytyi.net> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <1c36fb79-beee-7446-efe7-822c932a249c@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 10:44:54 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-01.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 08:44:59 -0000 I mean: I think there is no difference from a regular CPE behaviour, where CPE has an LTE interface for connection to the Internet. Why do you ask? Alex Le 23/04/2018 à 18:06, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : > Hi Erik, > > Thanks for the comment. > > Le 19/04/2018 à 08:53, Erik Kline a écrit : >> I've only scanned the document quickly, but I'm curious: in which >> ways is this different from regular CPE behaviour where, say, the CPE >> has an LTE interface for connection to the Internet? > > There is probably no difference: the CPE connects its LTE interface to > the Internet, just like the ARM or the laptop in figures on pages 7 and > 8 respectively connect their modem or USB dongles. The CPE, just like > the ARM, or like the laptop, will run a DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation Client. > > We could describe that CPE-with-LTE in a new figure, if necessary. But I > would request to be hinted by someone explaining that DHCPv6_PD on CPE > with LTE interface was tried and it worked with a /56. > > (there are a few kinds of CPE using LTE to go to Internet: either use an > internal LTE modem card, or an USB dongle or maybe a user's smartphone; > in this latter case the DHCPv6-PD Client would not run on the CPE but on > the smartphone, and so there would be more differences than what we > describe in the draft; so only someone who tried DHCPv6-PD on CPE with > cellular and made it work would hint about how it worked). > > Alex > >> >> On 19 April 2018 at 06:36, Dmytro Shytyi wrote: >>> Dear v6opsers, >>> >>> We are happy to introduce the new version (v.01) of the DANIR draft. >>> It has a new figure that describes the setting that works entirely with >>> DHCPv6-PD. >>> Please have a look by following the next link: >>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-01 >>> >>> >>> Name:        draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir >>> Revision:    01 >>> Title:        DHCPv6_PD, PDP and NDP Implementation in IoT Router >>> (DANIR) >>> Group:        Individual Submission >>> Pages:        18 >>> Abstract: >>> This document provides a description of the implementation of Dynamic >>> Host Configuration Protocol version 6 Prefix Delegation, Neighbour >>> Discovery Protocol and of the use of the Packet Data Protocol in an >>> Internet of Things Router. This Internet of Things Router is >>> connected on a cellular network; it is a DHCPv6-PD Client and it >>> requests a /56 pool of prefixes from the server; the DHCPv6-PD server >>> is placed in the PGW and is a part of the cellular infrastructure. >>> After the pool of prefixes is delegated, the Internet of Things >>> Router derives sub-prefixes from the prefix pool; each one of these >>> sub-prefixes is aimed at one ingress interface. >>> >>> After the Internet of Things Router finishes the network prefix >>> assignment procedure, it advertises the network prefixes on the >>> ingress links by using the Neighbour Discovery protocol. Finally, >>> when Hosts receive the sub-prefixes via Router Adverticement >>> messages, they configure the Global Unique Address with the Stateless >>> Address Auto-configuration protocol. >>> _____________ >>> Dmytro SHYTYI >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Tue Apr 24 01:59:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 77EAC124BFA for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 01:59:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.01 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.01 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3pLkPaCp-oYl for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 01:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22d.google.com (mail-wr0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AF01E12025C for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 01:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id s18-v6so48467568wrg.9 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 01:59:04 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=hidIS5/kQaICGcuoQ/Qz1SWOmMoGODvC//kozVcPLAs=; b=eu803Ycrc10ZadR61HtXomUzQGqlrDvgKFyA9w3uaUP2oCxHBSF1P1SKv9g1nPw+NA KCRMrlS1tUf4g6jU7u0sImXoucW3oJZiWUNHeXRNm3vRBHmeJBdd76whEEeEcu7td3u4 dynCyUP//2olweyBNzyO/AhrnXCO8YKgxxfbMoprtxV+Qfn9SaQ1sAsDHYy8nxUMcpmd InFMlaTrS5P1Qs5Ef5UJpU+uC5fgG6kPkp3vgHzV+NxZ5nrfIiwPbRvppUb2em6J4kTa J0bX06/y22vhD94xwwsOIa8rdYwpJJb2H8IqZ8bgXXkSlegl95TMdrHGQabiX0y2PSzK +S/g== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=hidIS5/kQaICGcuoQ/Qz1SWOmMoGODvC//kozVcPLAs=; b=ktPOhwjZBn/dzX+6I/APVY+CryIq60GBvQM80v1zVYIqGUv4R1ogyqJIPjx1ESCkfP TdHV7DC/3ekrHIuAftSpZAIXN1d7ESPkvtFkXSgYiQA+fFDMyHJaJ1krPZKeiorcuvaV 6AWDWrQfHnAh3vL6mrDSvnkL8nv641UjadkN21z/iKhKxjNQ+xl4tmmMoRchVuy+XNeg tMPVKKVLQ6K9GM+kOsugBGKP9bkI0SuXT6zQtIEPLSrw7gxBaZf17aCi31/Fs/o/H3MG V0PCGxctAQFbgvkPqlcQur+0e9aDBizuiN0rPFuQ8+ulQ8W3e9dO1IjwEW3Hx1J+TbOM WZ8w== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tBSMilD1ymsVH6aAahAusDO/y2Vgyq41IPU3BN4ljdS/2EQVd+N ipqeHGTatxbrdN7wLvcMkvClECkET6g4x7jgiE+s0w== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4+NK788D4lNP18uO5OLpw+YqOeK2AzzApe/qmP1ASKLXGpJP6KXFdjD1aiJAMMa0sVJPS+hOESNYdwqbQLg9Gg= X-Received: by 10.28.6.149 with SMTP id 143mr11973753wmg.61.1524560342711; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 01:59:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.146.143 with HTTP; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 01:58:41 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1c36fb79-beee-7446-efe7-822c932a249c@gmail.com> References: <162dab02960.c629492b49487.3795432881225509607@shytyi.net> <1c36fb79-beee-7446-efe7-822c932a249c@gmail.com> From: Erik Kline Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 17:58:41 +0900 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="001a11442348b49521056a945d5f" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-01.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 08:59:07 -0000 --001a11442348b49521056a945d5f Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 24 April 2018 at 17:44, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > I mean: I think there is no difference from a regular CPE behaviour, whe= re > CPE has an LTE interface for connection to the Internet. > > Why do you ask? Because it calls into question the necessity of having such a document. It sounds like you're saying that this is essentially documenting things that are already documented elsewhere. > Le 23/04/2018 =C3=A0 18:06, Alexandre Petrescu a =C3=A9crit : >> >> Hi Erik, >> >> Thanks for the comment. >> >> Le 19/04/2018 =C3=A0 08:53, Erik Kline a =C3=A9crit : >>> >>> I've only scanned the document quickly, but I'm curious: in which >>> ways is this different from regular CPE behaviour where, say, the CPE >>> has an LTE interface for connection to the Internet? >> >> >> There is probably no difference: the CPE connects its LTE interface to >> the Internet, just like the ARM or the laptop in figures on pages 7 and >> 8 respectively connect their modem or USB dongles. The CPE, just like >> the ARM, or like the laptop, will run a DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation Client. >> >> We could describe that CPE-with-LTE in a new figure, if necessary. But I >> would request to be hinted by someone explaining that DHCPv6_PD on CPE w= ith >> LTE interface was tried and it worked with a /56. >> >> (there are a few kinds of CPE using LTE to go to Internet: either use an >> internal LTE modem card, or an USB dongle or maybe a user's smartphone; >> in this latter case the DHCPv6-PD Client would not run on the CPE but on >> the smartphone, and so there would be more differences than what we >> describe in the draft; so only someone who tried DHCPv6-PD on CPE with >> cellular and made it work would hint about how it worked). >> >> Alex >> >>> >>> On 19 April 2018 at 06:36, Dmytro Shytyi wrote= : >>>> >>>> Dear v6opsers, >>>> >>>> We are happy to introduce the new version (v.01) of the DANIR draft. >>>> It has a new figure that describes the setting that works entirely wit= h >>>> DHCPv6-PD. >>>> Please have a look by following the next link: >>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-01 >>>> >>>> >>>> Name: draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir >>>> Revision: 01 >>>> Title: DHCPv6_PD, PDP and NDP Implementation in IoT Router >>>> (DANIR) >>>> Group: Individual Submission >>>> Pages: 18 >>>> Abstract: >>>> This document provides a description of the implementation of Dynamic >>>> Host Configuration Protocol version 6 Prefix Delegation, Neighbour >>>> Discovery Protocol and of the use of the Packet Data Protocol in an >>>> Internet of Things Router. This Internet of Things Router is >>>> connected on a cellular network; it is a DHCPv6-PD Client and it >>>> requests a /56 pool of prefixes from the server; the DHCPv6-PD server >>>> is placed in the PGW and is a part of the cellular infrastructure. >>>> After the pool of prefixes is delegated, the Internet of Things >>>> Router derives sub-prefixes from the prefix pool; each one of these >>>> sub-prefixes is aimed at one ingress interface. >>>> >>>> After the Internet of Things Router finishes the network prefix >>>> assignment procedure, it advertises the network prefixes on the >>>> ingress links by using the Neighbour Discovery protocol. Finally, >>>> when Hosts receive the sub-prefixes via Router Adverticement >>>> messages, they configure the Global Unique Address with the Stateless >>>> Address Auto-configuration protocol. >>>> _____________ >>>> Dmytro SHYTYI >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> v6ops mailing list >>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --001a11442348b49521056a945d5f Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIS3wYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIS0DCCEswCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg 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RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id sQYc56gCJr7V for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3FA441271DF for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 02:07:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3O97J3f021460; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 11:07:19 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 09FBD20134B; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 11:07:19 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id EE98B202DE2; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 11:07:18 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3O97IQa027010; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 11:07:18 +0200 To: Erik Kline Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" References: <162dab02960.c629492b49487.3795432881225509607@shytyi.net> <1c36fb79-beee-7446-efe7-822c932a249c@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <8fb930be-12c8-88b2-6022-c574bd4ff4db@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 11:07:18 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-01.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 09:07:24 -0000 Le 24/04/2018 à 10:58, Erik Kline a écrit : > On 24 April 2018 at 17:44, Alexandre Petrescu > wrote: >> I mean: I think there is no difference from a regular CPE behaviour, where >> CPE has an LTE interface for connection to the Internet. >> >> Why do you ask? > > Because it calls into question the necessity of having such a document. > > It sounds like you're saying that this is essentially documenting > things that are already documented elsewhere. There is a fine distinction between documents and documents that work. Alex > >> Le 23/04/2018 à 18:06, Alexandre Petrescu a écrit : >>> >>> Hi Erik, >>> >>> Thanks for the comment. >>> >>> Le 19/04/2018 à 08:53, Erik Kline a écrit : >>>> >>>> I've only scanned the document quickly, but I'm curious: in which >>>> ways is this different from regular CPE behaviour where, say, the CPE >>>> has an LTE interface for connection to the Internet? >>> >>> >>> There is probably no difference: the CPE connects its LTE interface to >>> the Internet, just like the ARM or the laptop in figures on pages 7 and >>> 8 respectively connect their modem or USB dongles. The CPE, just like >>> the ARM, or like the laptop, will run a DHCPv6 Prefix Delegation Client. >>> >>> We could describe that CPE-with-LTE in a new figure, if necessary. But I >>> would request to be hinted by someone explaining that DHCPv6_PD on CPE with >>> LTE interface was tried and it worked with a /56. >>> >>> (there are a few kinds of CPE using LTE to go to Internet: either use an >>> internal LTE modem card, or an USB dongle or maybe a user's smartphone; >>> in this latter case the DHCPv6-PD Client would not run on the CPE but on >>> the smartphone, and so there would be more differences than what we >>> describe in the draft; so only someone who tried DHCPv6-PD on CPE with >>> cellular and made it work would hint about how it worked). >>> >>> Alex >>> >>>> >>>> On 19 April 2018 at 06:36, Dmytro Shytyi wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Dear v6opsers, >>>>> >>>>> We are happy to introduce the new version (v.01) of the DANIR draft. >>>>> It has a new figure that describes the setting that works entirely with >>>>> DHCPv6-PD. >>>>> Please have a look by following the next link: >>>>> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir-01 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Name: draft-shytyi-v6ops-danir >>>>> Revision: 01 >>>>> Title: DHCPv6_PD, PDP and NDP Implementation in IoT Router >>>>> (DANIR) >>>>> Group: Individual Submission >>>>> Pages: 18 >>>>> Abstract: >>>>> This document provides a description of the implementation of Dynamic >>>>> Host Configuration Protocol version 6 Prefix Delegation, Neighbour >>>>> Discovery Protocol and of the use of the Packet Data Protocol in an >>>>> Internet of Things Router. This Internet of Things Router is >>>>> connected on a cellular network; it is a DHCPv6-PD Client and it >>>>> requests a /56 pool of prefixes from the server; the DHCPv6-PD server >>>>> is placed in the PGW and is a part of the cellular infrastructure. >>>>> After the pool of prefixes is delegated, the Internet of Things >>>>> Router derives sub-prefixes from the prefix pool; each one of these >>>>> sub-prefixes is aimed at one ingress interface. >>>>> >>>>> After the Internet of Things Router finishes the network prefix >>>>> assignment procedure, it advertises the network prefixes on the >>>>> ingress links by using the Neighbour Discovery protocol. Finally, >>>>> when Hosts receive the sub-prefixes via Router Adverticement >>>>> messages, they configure the Global Unique Address with the Stateless >>>>> Address Auto-configuration protocol. >>>>> _____________ >>>>> Dmytro SHYTYI >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> v6ops mailing list >>>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Tue Apr 24 12:13:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 9BBCC12D7EC for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 12:13:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id uayK4I-dUH1Q for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 12:13:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC49F124F57 for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 12:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0083689.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0083689.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id w3OJ6JMD011676; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 15:13:24 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0083689.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2hja5d8k3b-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT); Tue, 24 Apr 2018 15:13:24 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3OJDMuO028450; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 15:13:23 -0400 Received: from zlp30486.vci.att.com (zlp30486.vci.att.com [135.47.91.177]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3OJDIhO028288; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 15:13:18 -0400 Received: from zlp30486.vci.att.com (zlp30486.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30486.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id 5CFC140006BE; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 19:13:18 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAH.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [130.8.218.157]) by zlp30486.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id 46D6940002BE; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 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s=MDaemon; t=1524597992; x=1525202792; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=gdxle9SW d+BgGxAAOsYEVqULAjU/8bPOIgPm/qdYSf0=; b=UU0CBqaquvyoFiXKXPNpmJvi n9tzoZ69R6S7dHx+Jc9fUsVvNznCmgkvTzzXy2AoBxpnD3ckuF5IOxkZcaGiLIO0 JH69vsJCmnt/t++hunCm8/vpxtpTm9VSsrMuMrJUwAoFvqzFSgWhjtw+0XyO8gsP GDBhCHprj+8Ts4Mp47Q= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 24 Apr 2018 21:26:32 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Tue, 24 Apr 2018 21:26:31 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005757346.msg for ; Tue, 24 Apr 2018 21:26:31 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:a017:13cc:ba9d:1c80 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 21:26:31 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1652659e27=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 21:26:29 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <9220D43A-6193-4EFD-9BBA-AB2209418280@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 19:26:39 -0000 Hi Barbara, Thanks for your inputs and support :-) I fully understand that WG adoption doesn't mean last-call, so we have a lo= t to do after WG adoption! In my view, and I think it has been supported by operators speaking about i= t, the 4 mechanisms are being used and will be more often used. Regarding DS-Lite/6RD vs RFC7084. Do you mean that we should, with this doc= ument, update RFC7084 to delete from there the section about transition, an= d then include the DS-LITE support here and remove 6RD ? Lee did a similar comment and I will be in favor of that. Just want to make= sure that you will support that as well, in case I didn't got you correctl= y. Otherwise, duplicating DS-Lite in this document without updating RFC7084 in= this specific point seems to me like a "no-sense-duplication" ... anyway, = I will be happy either way. IPv4 multicast support. Was requested by one of the operators and has been = supported by others when talking to them about this document, but again, ha= ppy to have that discussion as well. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de "STARK, BARBARA H" Fecha: martes, 24 de abril de 2018, 21:14 Para: 'Fred Baker' CC: V6 Ops List Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion > Let me ask an additional question. We have had at least one operator = speak > against adoption of this draft as a working group draft, because she = doesn't > want to add requirements to customer-edge (CE) routers, which potenti= ally > make them more complex and therefore expensive (every line of code co= sts > something and has some probability of containing a bug or attack). It= sounds > like you would support adoption of the draft if it contains the right= set of > features and doesn't contain anything else, and if (as it is currentl= y written) > that it would be implemented in addition to RFC 7084. "The right set = of > features", from your perspective, includes MAP-T. >=20 > Is that a correct deduction? =20 Coming back from vacation and finally responding... =20 I support adoption of this draft by the WG.=20 I believe it will be useful to many operators in driving CE router feat= ure implementation that is needed by several operators today. Operators imp= lementing dual stack today will be glad this document exists when they get = ready to shut down IPv4, and I think it's better for them that the document= exists sooner rather than later. =20 But that doesn't mean I believe the draft has exactly the right set of = features included. My understanding of "adoption" is that it is still possi= ble post-adoption to discuss whether specific features / requirements do or= don't belong. If the precise set of features and requirements must be agre= ed upon prior to adoption, then I would not be in support of adoption. Hope= fully we aren't setting the bar that high? =20 Here are some items I'd like to discuss (hopefully post-adoption and no= t as a pre-condition to adoption): - Each mechanism included needs to be carefully considered whether it = is in or out. Is there significant (multiple providers) deployment support = (not just lab trials) for each and every one of the mechanisms listed? [I t= hink the current list looks pretty good, and see support expressed for most= of these, but still believe we need additional discussion.] - Positioning against RFC7084. Should we bring DS-Lite into this docum= ent so there is one place to see all transition technology requirements? Wh= at to say about 6rd (I saw other comments on this)? Does this really update= RFC7084? Or is it simply a nice companion to it? - IPv4 Multicast Support. Most retail routers do a pretty bad job of d= ealing with IPv4 multicast (especially wrt IPTV) without tunneling it over = IPv6. I disagree that we should be encouraging all CE routers to support tu= nneling of IPv4 multicast over IPv6, when they often don't get native IPv4 = multicast right. =20 So as long as we can still discuss these items post-adoption, I support= adoption. Barbara =20 > > On Apr 17, 2018, at 12:20 PM, Richard Patterson > wrote: > > > > Hi Fred, et al. > > > > Speaking as an Operator who is currently validating MAP-T as a > > solution, I'm in favour of making sure it itself is included in fut= ure > > versions of this draft. > > > > There are multiple vendors offering MAP-T Border Relays, and we've > > been testing both OpenWRT-based CPEs as well as a custom CPE based = on > > the Broadcom BCM63138 SoC. > > The Broadcom reference SDK comes with the CERNET kernel module and > > userland tool, and supports hardware acceleration of MAP-T translat= ed > > flows with Broadcom's Runner fastpath. > > > > I was also quite impressed with OpenWRT's implementation; aside fro= m > > initially needing internet connectivity to install the map-t module > > after a fresh install, no further configuration is required to have > > the CPE dynamically configure itself with MAP-T, given the appropri= ate > > DHCPv6 options. Kudos to the OpenWRT/LEDE devs on their support. > > > > Re: the draft's =C2=A75.3.4. It's succinct enough, whilst still di= recting > > implementors to the relevant RFCs, however I'm still mulling over t= he > > NAT44 and iptables/netfilter concerns that I raised in softwires a = few > > months back.[1] The address-sharing mode's algorithm for port > > allocations, isn't easily implementable with the current > > iptables/netfilter behaviour. OpenWRT's approach creates rule > > shadowing and port ranges that never get utilised. > > > > -Richard > > > > > > [1] > > https://www.ietf.org/mail-archive/web/softwires/current/msg06832.ht= ml > > > > On 15 April 2018 at 06:00, Fred Baker wr= ote: > >> At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented draft-palet-v6ops-tran= sition- > ipv4aas. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6op= s- > transition-ipv4aas, and his presentation deck is at > https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops- > transition-requirements-for-ipv6-ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-serv= ice- > 00. > >> > >> I would like to invite discussion. > >> > >> In particular, this draft derives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bi= s, and the > chairs wonder if it should be reposted as the next version of draft-i= etf-v6ops- > rfc7084-bis. That should happen if an only if the working group think= s it > should be published as an RFC (now or at some point) adding considera= tions > for implementors of RFC 7084 and also implementing transition service= s. > >> > >> A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many trans= ition > mechanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that opinion, if = you could > give that advice, identify the mechanism or mechanisms you think shou= ld be > listed, and indicate the reasoning behind your viewpoint. For example= , if you > think MAP-T should be listed, it would be helpful to know what operat= ors are > implementing MAP-T and are looking for CE Routers that support it. Th= e > same comment applies to any such mechanism or service. > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> v6ops mailing list > >> v6ops@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > >> =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. 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([2600:8802:5600:1546::12af]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id u23-v6sm1681734oiv.45.2018.04.24.17.38.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 24 Apr 2018 17:38:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_6FD0B14B-CF6A-4A49-9330-2E014E176460"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Tue, 24 Apr 2018 17:38:07 -0700 In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Cc: V6 Ops List To: "STARK, BARBARA H" References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 00:38:12 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_6FD0B14B-CF6A-4A49-9330-2E014E176460 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Apr 24, 2018, at 12:13 PM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: >=20 > But that doesn't mean I believe the draft has exactly the right set of = features included. My understanding of "adoption" is that it is still = possible post-adoption to discuss whether specific features / = requirements do or don't belong. If the precise set of features and = requirements must be agreed upon prior to adoption, then I would not be = in support of adoption. Hopefully we aren't setting the bar that high? I understand "adoption as a working group draft" to mean that the = working group has agreed to work on the draft. There are some working = groups that seem to confuse "adoption as a work group draft" with = "agreement to send it to the IESG"; I don't, but expect conversation in = between those two events. That said, I'd like to believe that the draft is pretty close, and that = changes that need to be made to it will have text offered by the people = that want them. So - keep your cards and letters coming... --Apple-Mail=_6FD0B14B-CF6A-4A49-9330-2E014E176460 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlrfze8ACgkQEhdRnd2G P+BdAA/9E/vY/raGKKJOZmLGny0eTOWduHeHUinCAJTZ0t6J/9i35aLPUoVFWGRP jbTqt0LRxai9PcTKJpvrA0y++PdFCDMPsSqhCpN01OCQ+DXIQjlOYpbz1IRXsKqr 3jXjZbAyrF5cRWZ4SLNli9D1iaPW5I9kKn0Gj1iM8amwZSPb47tK7TB2MBnDTO4a 3F+lf+KOPrJWmTUBtFcgiJPh9treqJFVgVuWDgiBsONwMRpi2z5X5gc49811Rv32 1mRUAyZyPMtzNjHlZhbz+aQuruZBr/AIztrHj1LTiCXLoxtQsUMrqJhh/cnP0uW3 lIuuQ6VapwR413buKSuV1BfGbfcs5tc/V2wVYv7JV+frWWEGfUjCbZqY4ZTIbgmA OX62eId+Q1qXPyTMYgHqvKHZHx8c6jccdF28tVKvyW+gnPlJ4XU8/IN6z99GuqdC PSLYsrpCYX8YQr3OWWxC6da8qQmqPX4igZbXHOgAsWQJkZW25P33tF5shrVFyn/5 I7wO3i0V5UdAvUgjQ4FdWuA22mJEaoPOyE/8NqRic1GaycHyt7JmUN3CsjxnknlK VrQTRJqNQ8Qz20ECuRt5QoEn4QP61kDEbrbCmXrGowWd7x2gUoSOPMvC0pS09vmm QOIuNUCb5z2kajnvBx0n65+IRvgtWVEivsG2t/XFr1/ZpEtV71Q= =EDeS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_6FD0B14B-CF6A-4A49-9330-2E014E176460-- From nobody Wed Apr 25 02:16:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 548771270AC for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:16:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.911 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.911 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=helix-net-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id owipJiGi2Hu4 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-x229.google.com (mail-io0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c06::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C188B12708C for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-x229.google.com with SMTP id a10-v6so8064873ioc.9 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:16:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=helix-net-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=irBpHAGQ0zk63W+EUBvkiRhU01MPyKO1ZvpyQpBi424=; b=jdPFcj0yvRJwFaCApkXLN9WfPdrxIEVB+7tiNShJiVm5w1xCdj6ohSShMf4oSQRTq3 6c2IQlMHvcxgnaOzIAZlYh4Jy1UFfQeXwTtlETpXKeEcCaaG77SbyYO9YQnzAOo64pfy lLDJo9GGoSSt089uVzsW0hM/qw561wH2Aek92YKAcm1XPK/6MpV7g52Wa1Qh9OrnMYgG REUHR1sDITCHK4fWMk6LMRHfDiZ+7qadP/ux5kV7lGut8VtXmlG7SQb1kUcNnunsgiGc HM6lbjvTClnc2Ra1bfvSane3NXLKlxOplgdalqON2oI1VPg48PoSmxs9OD+leFM0ysjH MnDQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=irBpHAGQ0zk63W+EUBvkiRhU01MPyKO1ZvpyQpBi424=; b=hDaJVoVgm2G94QOZK4NOaAzDkp0wzfeLxpGwTjOEt1XTmVmgN2I29Bs/xtqUS9WIHQ 7pxCSlWY7FxZpFZM4+lykDu7Z7U/8bhJb5XjPZxVyhlYKWJ5Ln2giu6ieYfMuuqwTHT2 SfQOexKbQpIQMUcLT8XxEw1fXgyoGxBivvLELjkVMAqTo46F94x00eIr8zoqE1vMSbuB MiTIH46VADFJUTNxOyzLiU77tp1gMRaSt4whhLYAKYEWmZp9K42sQjSLMCNNIkKIXZqT rwxgpuQ527ipfjgrdQpFhzckvCNaejbAi25RXR5Gyw2etedhm/7TJH/2YVWnZ7T8qUz7 01Og== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDi3om85vpw15RTiaOWeYDgPEJrArJoqz4D5/yj4Mv49RTlXyUD Jf77gobi/CcpiYb+Iw12p0jNpiBr X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZpijbJjvIFEiFIt3Kr5aDjpHF4uL92A7FUvO8E8KY4qHHIzSxApXwgciqRlMEGaOdwQaM86rQ== X-Received: by 2002:a6b:27d5:: with SMTP id n204-v6mr21157026ion.206.1524647772823; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-f47.google.com (mail-it0-f47.google.com. [209.85.214.47]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v99-v6sm1031495iov.40.2018.04.25.02.16.12 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:16:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-f47.google.com with SMTP id 144-v6so4431856iti.5 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:16:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a24:4f58:: with SMTP id c85-v6mr1241589itb.81.1524647772040; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:16:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.107.89.25 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 02:15:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> From: Richard Patterson Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 10:15:51 +0100 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: V6 Ops List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 09:16:16 -0000 Section 4 only briefly touches on UPnP, I'd like to propose that we make a recommendation around its behaviour if it is enabled. UPnP MAY be enabled on the IPv6 transition CE, for stateless mechanisms that forward unsolicited inbound packets through to the CE. If UPnP is enabled, the agent MUST reject any port mapping requests for ports outside of the range(s) allocated to the IPv6 transition CE. UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechanisms that do not forward unsolicited inbound packets to the CE, unless implemented in conjunction with a method to control the external port mapping, such as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970]. -Richard On 25 April 2018 at 01:38, Fred Baker wrote: > > >> On Apr 24, 2018, at 12:13 PM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: >> >> But that doesn't mean I believe the draft has exactly the right set of f= eatures included. My understanding of "adoption" is that it is still possib= le post-adoption to discuss whether specific features / requirements do or = don't belong. If the precise set of features and requirements must be agree= d upon prior to adoption, then I would not be in support of adoption. Hopef= ully we aren't setting the bar that high? > > I understand "adoption as a working group draft" to mean that the working= group has agreed to work on the draft. There are some working groups that = seem to confuse "adoption as a work group draft" with "agreement to send it= to the IESG"; I don't, but expect conversation in between those two events= . > > That said, I'd like to believe that the draft is pretty close, and that c= hanges that need to be made to it will have text offered by the people that= want them. So - keep your cards and letters coming... > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Wed Apr 25 09:26:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8D1B5127978 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 09:26:15 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 0AdvyOQiL4eo for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 09:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E29A1200C5 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 09:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3PGQAgZ092298 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:26:10 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id D6BC4203540 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:26:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id CB1D9202D0E for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:26:10 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3PGQAmJ009468 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:26:10 +0200 To: "v6ops@ietf.org" From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <5e02c3d9-5382-205e-f552-496da5c529bc@gmail.com> Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:26:10 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------2ECEBEB1BA2A24AA33A777FF" Content-Language: fr Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] When IPv6 breaks IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 16:26:15 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2ECEBEB1BA2A24AA33A777FF Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There was a presentation at an IETF meeting in v6ops, about when people recommend to rather turn off IPv6 on some consumer electronics (Netgear was that?). The GUI was telling in red characters to rather turn off IPv6, instead of risking IPv4 not working either. Today I had a similar experience. The hardened Android tablet Aaeon by ASUS (described in AAEON_RTC-700B.PDF) has an Ethernet port which is great.  The Android GUI allows to set an IPv6 address in a field.  I put there "1::1" because it is very fast to type on a virtual keyboard.  After that, the Ethernet stopped working in IPv4 altogether.  Long press reboot button does not solve it.  There is no means to revert back, not possible to remove that IPv6 address. Now I can throw out a window this tablet, for two reasons: neither IPv6 is working, nor IPv4 is working.  There is no reset button, no documentation about 'cold reset' and there are are two batteries: one main and one backup.  The backup can be removed but the main is hardened.  I suspect that even if the main battery dies out the GUI config file containing that "1::1" will still be there for many years a writeable RAM lasts. Worse, I did this in front of partner, in my good intentions to illustrate proof how IPv6 is so present everywhere already. Next time I will be more moderate about my trust in IPv6 availability. Alex --------------2ECEBEB1BA2A24AA33A777FF Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit There was a presentation at an IETF meeting in v6ops, about when people recommend to rather turn off IPv6 on some consumer electronics (Netgear was that?).  The GUI was telling in red characters to rather turn off IPv6, instead of risking IPv4 not working either.

Today I had a similar experience.

The hardened Android tablet Aaeon by ASUS (described in AAEON_RTC-700B.PDF) has an Ethernet port which is great.  The Android GUI allows to set an IPv6 address in a field.  I put there "1::1" because it is very fast to type on a virtual keyboard.  After that, the Ethernet stopped working in IPv4 altogether.  Long press reboot button does not solve it.  There is no means to revert back, not possible to remove that IPv6 address.

Now I can throw out a window this tablet, for two reasons: neither IPv6 is working, nor IPv4 is working.  There is no reset button, no documentation about 'cold reset' and there are are two batteries: one main and one backup.  The backup can be removed but the main is hardened.  I suspect that even if the main battery dies out the GUI config file containing that "1::1" will still be there for many years a writeable RAM lasts.

Worse, I did this in front of partner, in my good intentions to illustrate proof how IPv6 is so present everywhere already.

Next time I will be more moderate about my trust in IPv6 availability.

Alex



 --------------2ECEBEB1BA2A24AA33A777FF-- From nobody Wed Apr 25 11:03:43 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 538C5129C56 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 11:03:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IM_rrivuG5Fh for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 11:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp-sp201-44.kinghost.net (smtp-sp201-44.kinghost.net [177.185.201.44]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1930912895E for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 11:03:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.10.10.59] (unknown [168.227.132.42]) (Authenticated sender: lista-gter@tbonet.net.br) by smtp-sp201-44.kinghost.net (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 700FA200F7A7 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:03:33 -0300 (-03) To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <5e02c3d9-5382-205e-f552-496da5c529bc@gmail.com> From: =?UTF-8?Q?Jo=c3=a3o_Butzke?= Message-ID: Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:03:31 -0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 10.0; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <5e02c3d9-5382-205e-f552-496da5c529bc@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------FC95893EAC7AB1313D43C39F" Content-Language: pt-BR Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] When IPv6 breaks IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:03:42 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FC95893EAC7AB1313D43C39F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thats a sad story, RIP TABLET. Today we are having some issues with MikroTik, i updated the routers for the new version because of a winbox vulnerability and now ipv6 on my network is DEAD. Some brands do not give the proper attention to IPv6 and things like that happen, very sadly. Trying to solve wtf is happening. Best Regards, João Butzke. Em 25/04/2018 13:26, Alexandre Petrescu escreveu: > There was a presentation at an IETF meeting in v6ops, about when > people recommend to rather turn off IPv6 on some consumer electronics > (Netgear was that?).  The GUI was telling in red characters to rather > turn off IPv6, instead of risking IPv4 not working either. > > Today I had a similar experience. > > The hardened Android tablet Aaeon by ASUS (described in > AAEON_RTC-700B.PDF) has an Ethernet port which is great.  The Android > GUI allows to set an IPv6 address in a field.  I put there "1::1" > because it is very fast to type on a virtual keyboard.  After that, > the Ethernet stopped working in IPv4 altogether.  Long press reboot > button does not solve it. There is no means to revert back, not > possible to remove that IPv6 address. > > Now I can throw out a window this tablet, for two reasons: neither > IPv6 is working, nor IPv4 is working.  There is no reset button, no > documentation about 'cold reset' and there are are two batteries: one > main and one backup.  The backup can be removed but the main is > hardened.  I suspect that even if the main battery dies out the GUI > config file containing that "1::1" will still be there for many years > a writeable RAM lasts. > > Worse, I did this in front of partner, in my good intentions to > illustrate proof how IPv6 is so present everywhere already. > > Next time I will be more moderate about my trust in IPv6 availability. > > Alex > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --------------FC95893EAC7AB1313D43C39F Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thats a sad story, RIP TABLET.

Today we are having some issues with MikroTik, i updated the routers for the new version because of a winbox vulnerability and now ipv6 on my network is DEAD.

Some brands do not give the proper attention to IPv6 and things like that happen, very sadly.

Trying to solve wtf is happening.

Best Regards,
João Butzke.

Em 25/04/2018 13:26, Alexandre Petrescu escreveu:
There was a presentation at an IETF meeting in v6ops, about when people recommend to rather turn off IPv6 on some consumer electronics (Netgear was that?).  The GUI was telling in red characters to rather turn off IPv6, instead of risking IPv4 not working either.

Today I had a similar experience.

The hardened Android tablet Aaeon by ASUS (described in AAEON_RTC-700B.PDF) has an Ethernet port which is great.  The Android GUI allows to set an IPv6 address in a field.  I put there "1::1" because it is very fast to type on a virtual keyboard.  After that, the Ethernet stopped working in IPv4 altogether.  Long press reboot button does not solve it.  There is no means to revert back, not possible to remove that IPv6 address.

Now I can throw out a window this tablet, for two reasons: neither IPv6 is working, nor IPv4 is working.  There is no reset button, no documentation about 'cold reset' and there are are two batteries: one main and one backup.  The backup can be removed but the main is hardened.  I suspect that even if the main battery dies out the GUI config file containing that "1::1" will still be there for many years a writeable RAM lasts.

Worse, I did this in front of partner, in my good intentions to illustrate proof how IPv6 is so present everywhere already.

Next time I will be more moderate about my trust in IPv6 availability.

Alex



 

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--------------FC95893EAC7AB1313D43C39F-- From nobody Wed Apr 25 11:58:51 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id F0371127698 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 11:58:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f_wHrJrn4B7b for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 11:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 54914129C56 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 11:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049462.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id w3PItVnc038459 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:58:48 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2hjy7f0bnj-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:58:48 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3PIwlrH018396 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:58:47 -0400 Received: from zlp30487.vci.att.com (zlp30487.vci.att.com [135.47.91.176]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3PIwhhY018310 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:58:44 -0400 Received: from zlp30487.vci.att.com (zlp30487.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30487.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id 3A64B4014049 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:58:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAG.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [130.8.218.156]) by zlp30487.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id 27F424014040 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:58:43 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.170]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAG.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.156]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:58:42 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft Thread-Index: AdPcwCSa7f9yrmemQveljKwJ4hWWjQ== Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:58:42 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD80DE8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.61.166.63] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-04-25_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804250172 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:58:51 -0000 I have a number of comments for draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas. I'm g= rouping comments under different email subject headers so it's easier to tr= ack the topic of any resulting discussion. The first area of comments I have is on how to position this draft relative= to RFC 7084 and in a way that will maximize its impact and likelihood of a= chieving its goal (which I think is to drive availability of CE routers tha= t support *all* of the included transition technologies). I notice the draft introduces the term "IPv6 transition CE". Sometimes this= is "IPv6 transition CE router". I like this idea, but would suggest capita= lizing and using the longer "IPv6 Transition CE Router". I think if this is= a more formal term and this draft is positioned as defining requirements f= or an IPv6 Transition CE Router (rather than simply specifying "the transit= ion requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router") then it becomes ok= to make most of the SHOULD requirements into a MUST. That is, the draft is= not an extension of a CE Router (RFC 7084). It's something new that is spe= cified and defined here. And should be the title of the draft. Saying "MUST" is stronger than "SHOULD" and will increase likelihood of suc= cess. It will also increase likelihood that *all* of the included technolog= ies are implemented (as currently written it would be possible to do one or= 2 of the technologies and still claim compliance). And it will make it eas= ier to create a subsequent certification program, if there is demand for on= e. If the MUST statements apply only to the IPv6 Transition CE Router this = draft defines, then there is no problem with saying "MUST". The requirement= s have no scope outside this draft. ---------- If taking this approach, requirements for DS-Lite would need to be included= . Those can be copied from RFC 7084. ---------- RFC 7084 can still be a basis for this new thing (MUST comply with RFC 7084= ). The current requirement for RFC 7084 compliance is "The IPv6 Transition CE = router must comply with all the requirements stated in [RFC7084]."=20 I suggest staying away from "all the requirements", since the RFC 7084 SHOU= LD and MAY requirements are also requirements, and I don't think it's inten= ded to mandate those. I recommend simply saying: The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comply with [RFC7084]. --------- If done this way, I don't think it's necessary to make mention of 6rd in an= y way. It's omission from this draft will make it clear that it's not a com= ponent of an IPv6 Transition CE Router. Barbara From nobody Wed Apr 25 12:00:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA4CE12E042 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 12:00:06 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id T0Nf3Rwl7Z5E for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 12:00:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0B3EA12AAB6 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 12:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049462.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id w3PItW5N038506 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:00:04 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2hjy7f0cm4-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:00:04 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3PJ03Uk022583 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:00:03 -0400 Received: from zlp30485.vci.att.com (zlp30485.vci.att.com [135.47.91.178]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3PIxwf0020091 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:59:58 -0400 Received: from zlp30485.vci.att.com (zlp30485.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30485.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id 394CC40002CB for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:59:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [130.8.218.152]) by zlp30485.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id 280AC40006C3 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:59:58 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.170]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAC.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.152]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 14:59:57 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: transition-ipv4aas: Usage Scenarios and End-User Network Architecture Thread-Index: AdPcwTiQrayDwDMmSFaI+HlFJzRQDw== Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 18:59:56 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD80E20@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.61.166.63] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-04-25_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=1 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=1 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=916 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804250172 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: Usage Scenarios and End-User Network Architecture X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 19:00:07 -0000 My next set of comments for the transition-ipv4aas draft is on the Usage Sc= enarios and End-User Network Architecture sections. I admit to having a low tolerance for what I consider unnecessary introduct= ory material. If the goal is to get CE router vendors to implement the requ= irements in Section 5, and make this easy for operators to use this draft t= o request these features, then don't make readers have to go through 5 page= s of largely unnecessary introductory material to get to the really importa= nt stuff. Also, the more introductory material that is included, the more c= omments there will be against the introductory material (and the more time = gets spent in discussion of those comments -- to the detriment of discussio= n of requirements and making it take longer to get to publication).=20 The more this draft is focused on the requirements, the more likely it is t= hose requirements will be read and implemented, and the faster it will be t= o review and publish. If you really want to include the usage scenarios, I would suggest putting = them at the end. My preference would be not to include, at all (because the= re is no need to discuss and fix what isn't there). Same for the end-user n= etwork architecture. I would suggest replacing these two sections with a really short section ma= ybe titled Scope. Something like: Scope This document specifies the requirements for an IPv6 Transition CE Router. = The IPv6 Transition CE Router builds upon the IPv6 CE Router defined and sp= ecified in [RFC7084] by including mandatory support for several transition = technologies. The IPv6 Transition CE Router is intended to be used in the s= ame manner (same types of customers and end-user network architecture) as t= he IPv6 CE Router.=20 The IPv6 Transition CE Router will implement the specified transition mecha= nisms and related provisioning and configuration mechanisms specified in th= is document in addition to complying with [RFC7084]. Barbara From nobody Wed Apr 25 15:00:49 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 06CD912D7E4 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:00:47 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZvrkXjWca0qu for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0b-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.157.136]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 116C212D7F7 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:00:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0049462.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id w3PItVWX038432 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:01:12 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0049462.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2hjy7f0dtm-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:01:12 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3PJ1BGU029551 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:01:11 -0400 Received: from zlp30488.vci.att.com (zlp30488.vci.att.com [135.47.91.93]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3PJ1Adb029526 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:01:10 -0400 Received: from zlp30488.vci.att.com (zlp30488.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30488.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id 3E9AF40002B6 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 19:01:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAD.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [130.8.218.153]) by zlp30488.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id 2C44440002B3 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 19:01:10 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.170]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAD.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0361.001; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 15:01:09 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: transition-ipv4aas: IPv4 Multicast Thread-Index: AdPcxdfgRGiwtZ8bRoKsQ9J1PFTp6g== Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 19:01:08 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD80E6E@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [135.61.166.63] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-04-25_06:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1015 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=567 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804250172 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: IPv4 Multicast X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 25 Apr 2018 22:00:47 -0000 The transition-ipv4aas draft has the following section: 6. IPv4 Multicast Support Actual deployments support IPv4 multicast for services such as IPTV. In the transition phase it is expected that multicast services will still be provided using IPv4 to the customer LANs. In order to support the delivery of IPv4 multicast services to IPv4 clients over an IPv6 multicast network, the IPv6 Transition CE router SHOULD support [RFC8114] and [RFC8115]. WAN to LAN IPv4 Multicast (such as used for delivery of IPTV) is not suppor= ted by many IPv4 CE routers today. Those that do "support" IPv4 multicast o= ften do it poorly. Since I do not believe IPv4 CE routers, in general, shou= ld or can be expected to support delivery of IPv4 multicast services, I dis= agree that an IPv6 Transition CE Routers SHOULD support delivery of IPv4 mu= lticast services. I suggest removing this entire section. Alternately, rephrase to say "If the IPv6 Transition CE Router supports del= ivery of IPv4 multicast services, then it SHOULD (MUST?) support [RFC8114] = and [RFC8115]." Barbara From nobody Wed Apr 25 17:29:58 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 29B0B12D7F8 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:29:57 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.45 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.45 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_ENVFROM_END_DIGIT=0.25, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id pyXtVj8Z2Ef8 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:29:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-lf0-x22d.google.com (mail-lf0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4010:c07::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3C44B12D96C for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:29:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-lf0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id r125-v6so28056028lfe.2 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:29:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=6Di1M7VZJX8fvCAMyPswhBGMmIwok0XUY7Jd9H618/o=; b=anX+PzJhSHcDJtxkPAlvBBOvWd3qbStRpqNb4AdnihC4TflYI2FmY7WOK5OVg6/GbM 3omSO8Z7CyE0vylW+tAplZPvXFZYjbX3NWLt6piJg9HsEn4FdmXnCSliEfEq8HfH8PCU S66avWOWshh92nOQdDvWMyc7/ojbIT1GPeNh2VEwW6R9uLLXKs2mxnSx3lpdYGnNnmPB QIs70Hd9jKH7WLVTCto5JNEuBrH0esmLRjVZl+So9aPVzjiFU8bB4KB//Gap9zKUqTVD TKVYqCRpdHP7uEeH1gD7XBuKwapafFDOyC2zHj4agKkmsh4dVEeMAhx60+bIJbn9cTnn M0Dw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=6Di1M7VZJX8fvCAMyPswhBGMmIwok0XUY7Jd9H618/o=; b=WoMQRV1cf3VtuqQRx2UgM1P0pwgXNpPZ95F42oM0urCg6kq/6q6sIvpMg1x0qvER+7 LYH0DYMnm5Jdif43ups9L/raXlsfivb/hC7b0YOrhneFIldFCabvFy274K2cp0s3bqbt HtUJ+8YUEDOyWf33bIdx2kB0hf41uM8U6aym96WMfLStMzaRpeNU/XlsAt78RWwJzsr3 ILLiTbGmdrKshM9hO/6OBWdtjzlq3cj40ld2ODQYZlwWLqOg/Y4rckvW4yUrN7zyXJAs vw4peEqy0G8KCUZsUZhKQe6CFLlE62SQGTxfHe+vyWCefl1BwXREM2p0SqfTyerpnp2T HHJw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCZqu3dE0ZC0V85m6+yqy9FjyHJY1GHPmFaLpX1mH8v4wDFa59y WAWcxDhLXxbkVMvvwUJC//rCQ4S9okqR0Cu5PW4= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4845SRYFPEQ8nqUP0oF2xf23TD1AX9ATNYLQMH6TW942jD81fCenskQzhaaD0Fh8ehLenhlxpBjuR/WRQgLJGo= X-Received: by 10.46.157.84 with SMTP id y20mr20203996ljj.107.1524702587403; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:29:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:5c04:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:29:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: From: Jen Linkova Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 10:29:26 +1000 Message-ID: To: Ron Bonica Cc: "furry@google.com" , "mstucchi@ripe.net" , V6 Ops List , Fred Baker , Russ White Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:29:57 -0000 Sorry for the delay, was OOO. I'm not not aware of any IPR against this draft. On Thu, Apr 19, 2018 at 1:15 AM, Ron Bonica wrote: > Jen, Massimiliano, > > Draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-03 has passed WG Last call and Russ White has provided a Shepherd's write-up. > > Please respond to this email informing the group of either: > > a) That you are not aware of any IPR against this draft. or > b) That IPR of which you are aware has been declared to the IETF > > As soon as I receive responses from both of you, Fred and I will forward the draft to the IESG for publication. > > Fred & Ron > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Wed Apr 25 17:57:05 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 790AA126CD8 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:57:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WmcHrX-ju4gB for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:57:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wr0-x22c.google.com (mail-wr0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c0c::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A0554124319 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:57:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wr0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id g21-v6so27517280wrb.8 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:57:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=a4LO+Wj3ftvC5XTJyoWBpxe94Ro69x3Tu5V/nl9wc1M=; b=ksN4gomyjNnH/3GVTza0Cx5Rx4dfVtaQcgD7Vk0wIeKl0Ppsp1FrkVMb8i2cdgtyHG R+W8LtrHNOfFtk23QT82k/mxKkTxyKkyrC/LfuooCxH3psuOk9Rnhz4qLLdJQx988711 4sHWX1zOXyMs1tosNPtvGoEM6yj7ZU9U8ScBPb/HdtA2L+jD1h7u1Feg/5ikVCKMgZ51 f+44XJ+q+h4xp9dUaySGK1GTioDgfl5EgqlXMUGnVyK6LSzSyybImh9KbT1tR31PYp6x a58aav5+Dr7/4PcrTQoswLIEVd8+KInFWEylUOghGPc/X/pMTO86xFM6HCussbYc2f7r QMQg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=a4LO+Wj3ftvC5XTJyoWBpxe94Ro69x3Tu5V/nl9wc1M=; b=rhGtcIanSNE18NP9MW20Yih0m4r45gnguMu18ZmbxUcHsIiofQc3lye27q3V2/cI1e d1ARB5HRZ0siU8D+ZRq4UNqKua2atS7ba8RI3jdb/BPijy3D0ApKVcvCKoc5P5+TcutS hxxOn9wlZalfkMiGVZTLE8/hJhgfAh1pJGkwhHj0szDs4DfRrDEi5LKN0wSoEpjhkqf/ Ssf6uKQ24pdu/JqPP3FTIotYJEV92YY/wyLp2So3ZtNnBBNGLmfa3FzWMKXq9BLBsAQI rsY0PHY9acfiUBwErfKdh3Rmi4GUkWxItH0VhiHONxzQi/W3pSK/X6NOwcnbUGG2Wjoe /KUg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDV9gzBIZj+kP/MoFyMctTjFJsi3dDkGTzaPdBqdX+Nc6ofuERt v6vTNpF6iq9fpZLFzAUd3+QNGX4Y+Zb5ynvjHQ== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/xmRuH81XvTXiLTgMFREJOk0vhpRpnyfhmsQiEppG2/9Ste3560UQzDs0QlSJ/jdhB5VYy16SDrrT6MmHCgUM= X-Received: by 2002:adf:9986:: with SMTP id y6-v6mr25099328wrb.40.1524704220034; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:57:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.149.38 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 17:56:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD80DE8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD80DE8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> From: Hans Liu Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 08:56:59 +0800 Message-ID: To: "STARK, BARBARA H" Cc: V6 Ops List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000006c39ec056ab5dd81" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:57:03 -0000 --0000000000006c39ec056ab5dd81 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > > If taking this approach, requirements for DS-Lite would need to be > included. Those can be copied from RFC 7084. > > If done this way, I don't think it's necessary to make mention of 6rd in > any way. It's omission from this draft will make it clear that it's not a > component of an IPv6 Transition CE Router. > > > Barbara > > Thank Barbara for the comments. I do also think we should include DS-Lite so this document can serve the title better and it may facilitate my OEM vendors to get a whole picture. Best regards, Hans --0000000000006c39ec056ab5dd81 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

If taking this approach, requirements for DS-Lite would need to be included= . Those can be copied from RFC 7084.

If done this way, I don't think it's necessary to make mention of 6= rd in any way. It's omission from this draft will make it clear that it= 's not a component of an IPv6 Transition CE Router.


Barbara


Thank Barbara for the comme= nts.=C2=A0 I do also think we should include DS-Lite so this document can s= erve the title better and it may facilitate my OEM vendors to get a whole p= icture.


Best regards,
Hans=C2=A0=
--0000000000006c39ec056ab5dd81-- From nobody Wed Apr 25 20:21:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 021EB12711E for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 20:21:00 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.71 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.71 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=google.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id cCN07VwzQkZ3 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 20:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x236.google.com (mail-wm0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F9E6124B17 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 20:20:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x236.google.com with SMTP id w2so6831521wmw.1 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 20:20:58 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=BbnmLx0/geXtZh5ktJ7LXATWuMKiLMhdV9e2Tn6iTW8=; b=KdjqRfqnmBv0+5g2KbMJge+1weVUzWmRBQzDYP8G8LCz62026lSOpC2ui3d4WsYglM WIcCf6KHoMyieN9X01/N8DBjR07ldFSBRQHpluu87HOuTNI2lOaKkN4sINjm0fAmxDYV 4BryrQBBMT1ZjycKEmo2AUZuTvMi+2Pzrp5CyJSkyZ2HsT+qE6YS76nxB8og8pdImZra 6G2yR0zwvpWl5WLNRLTNoDoh3MOrS/ory5YlinElsjixFJyOjlWCkGBWfj3Xh5Twc2t9 LxwFf0a8RV+oyB4uB0+utBLjG35PwTIYb9APHiFhjcs6qDs9VGmYa7XOgC+qHpa0gbZm h8BQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=BbnmLx0/geXtZh5ktJ7LXATWuMKiLMhdV9e2Tn6iTW8=; b=clEgpTViThjECMGSmo6+KQS8v9AjB/1x0Qgcu7M0dQapVLcJXw475DNrcctN28muws sC1E9KChGHRk/hKH81W5d3X4TAD9WzrUaAIlJVUspJmyNNG+xsLhS2a9kaMaY8qJH7xz gdB6zfchdx/AXsuaNIpUbpObjmYyPbOMdbYeG7jeEPoKEf6rRQUcvKipWknYDepUclkS 6Ed8Ckw9u5SSRwd5Q7gcJNoWU0F+mhg6NXaUK3Jxm71bdWac33tsARi6MMTg6HO7vO9D Ec4sKaYrf/nzVgCh3HS1npYBnU3lOgJNt7myKrioM5wa/5l+Jaak5rluV7uzuWHonYdZ o/Lg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCJW6BgAY7XUEnZjETwYqXx7wDcmQGHBA3A1SX6NwSpXGSF1N73 eDjjMIGn/yM+uG9I0D7jmIt63BzupMOtH+XBis8GQA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZplSMOo95avmuXdKbL1G+wn4WYjEegFN7eOEzcxSlsnrLxe12WLVoG5jaVRoQdHs1xk/dm45JvvH0CKfnATxo0= X-Received: by 10.28.125.74 with SMTP id y71mr13870896wmc.89.1524712856444; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 20:20:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.28.146.143 with HTTP; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 20:20:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5e02c3d9-5382-205e-f552-496da5c529bc@gmail.com> References: <5e02c3d9-5382-205e-f552-496da5c529bc@gmail.com> From: Erik Kline Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:20:35 +0900 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" Content-Type: multipart/signed; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; micalg=sha-256; boundary="001a1149742e3868a6056ab7e0bc" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] When IPv6 breaks IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 03:21:00 -0000 --001a1149742e3868a6056ab7e0bc Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Stock Android does not support manually setting any IPv6 parameters whatsoever. This means you were using some feature added by someone else. Proper integration with the rest of the platform may not have been easy. On 26 April 2018 at 01:26, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > There was a presentation at an IETF meeting in v6ops, about when people > recommend to rather turn off IPv6 on some consumer electronics (Netgear was > that?). The GUI was telling in red characters to rather turn off IPv6, > instead of risking IPv4 not working either. > > Today I had a similar experience. > > The hardened Android tablet Aaeon by ASUS (described in AAEON_RTC-700B.PDF) > has an Ethernet port which is great. The Android GUI allows to set an IPv6 > address in a field. I put there "1::1" because it is very fast to type on a > virtual keyboard. After that, the Ethernet stopped working in IPv4 > altogether. Long press reboot button does not solve it. There is no means > to revert back, not possible to remove that IPv6 address. > > Now I can throw out a window this tablet, for two reasons: neither IPv6 is > working, nor IPv4 is working. There is no reset button, no documentation > about 'cold reset' and there are are two batteries: one main and one backup. > The backup can be removed but the main is hardened. I suspect that even if > the main battery dies out the GUI config file containing that "1::1" will > still be there for many years a writeable RAM lasts. > > Worse, I did this in front of partner, in my good intentions to illustrate > proof how IPv6 is so present everywhere already. > > Next time I will be more moderate about my trust in IPv6 availability. > > Alex > > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --001a1149742e3868a6056ab7e0bc Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature MIIS3wYJKoZIhvcNAQcCoIIS0DCCEswCAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADALBgkqhkiG9w0BBwGg ghBFMIIEXDCCA0SgAwIBAgIOSBtqDm4P/739RPqw/wcwDQYJKoZIhvcNAQELBQAwZDELMAkGA1UE BhMCQkUxGTAXBgNVBAoTEEdsb2JhbFNpZ24gbnYtc2ExOjA4BgNVBAMTMUdsb2JhbFNpZ24gUGVy 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dC9FDXNb7Gu4CtpqkeNK+QS1rqsyB1QpzCsgoAxLsDOd6PtNBhplaTCbIt6ErmngPTOF95W5aVhz nDwjFbUKV6d7SJeh9/dzv/366hn30cKSFHGH1ZeZMgmrPdxpSKpMyc176g0hcser7qVgsIuhbPpk JDJdCqR/oIA7nx10qP++e97aLMYQcyVKwzDXx6KRgQuAOkYWj3rdGSay4QhTWbnHtycwXUfJt7l1 DceDK9p43RQuS/CdM8oiqkLSOVRE9pkpX5x82yTunR56o/4IAiEU2K2z8WdS4r8= --001a1149742e3868a6056ab7e0bc-- From nobody Wed Apr 25 22:32:26 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5BD3B120725 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 22:32:25 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id fd8LOa8-5iTo for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 22:32:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orange.com (mta240.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.66.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CCBFB1205F0 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 22:32:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.11]) by opfedar22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 4B85360B49; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:32:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.62]) by opfedar00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 331F418007E; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:32:22 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM5E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::2912:bfa5:91d3:bf63%18]) with mapi id 14.03.0389.001; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:32:22 +0200 From: To: "STARK, BARBARA H" , V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: IPv4 Multicast Thread-Index: AdPcxdfgRGiwtZ8bRoKsQ9J1PFTp6gAWfqNg Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:32:21 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11C99@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD80E6E@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD80E6E@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: IPv4 Multicast X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:32:25 -0000 Hi Barbara,=20 Your alternate wording works for me.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de STARK, BARBARA= H > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 25 avril 2018 21:01 > =C0=A0: V6 Ops List > Objet=A0: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: IPv4 Multicast >=20 > The transition-ipv4aas draft has the following section: >=20 > 6. IPv4 Multicast Support > Actual deployments support IPv4 multicast for services such as IPTV. > In the transition phase it is expected that multicast services will > still be provided using IPv4 to the customer LANs. > In order to support the delivery of IPv4 multicast services to IPv4 > clients over an IPv6 multicast network, the IPv6 Transition CE router > SHOULD support [RFC8114] and [RFC8115]. >=20 > WAN to LAN IPv4 Multicast (such as used for delivery of IPTV) is not > supported by many IPv4 CE routers today. Those that do "support" IPv4 > multicast often do it poorly. Since I do not believe IPv4 CE routers, in > general, should or can be expected to support delivery of IPv4 multicast > services, I disagree that an IPv6 Transition CE Routers SHOULD support > delivery of IPv4 multicast services. I suggest removing this entire secti= on. >=20 > Alternately, rephrase to say "If the IPv6 Transition CE Router supports > delivery of IPv4 multicast services, then it SHOULD (MUST?) support [RFC8= 114] > and [RFC8115]." >=20 > Barbara >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Wed Apr 25 23:19:54 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 91220126D73 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:19:52 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id OeddLFwxJCCh for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orange.com (mta134.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.70.34]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 144261205F0 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:19:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.64]) by opfednr21.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id AD6B8C08D2; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 08:19:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.2]) by opfednr00.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 8E6ED1A0077; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 08:19:48 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM21.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::e92a:c932:907e:8f06%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0389.001; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 08:19:48 +0200 From: To: "STARK, BARBARA H" , V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft Thread-Index: AdPcwCSa7f9yrmemQveljKwJ4hWWjQAYF42Q Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 06:19:48 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11CEA@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD80DE8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD80DE8@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 06:19:52 -0000 Re-, I do think this would be so simple if the WG went for a bis document.=20 I don't understand the rationale for duplicating DS-Lite content given that= Jordi's I-D points to 7084.=20 Cheers, Med > -----Message d'origine----- > De=A0: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de STARK, BARBARA= H > Envoy=E9=A0: mercredi 25 avril 2018 20:59 > =C0=A0: V6 Ops List > Objet=A0: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft >=20 > I have a number of comments for draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas. I'm > grouping comments under different email subject headers so it's easier to > track the topic of any resulting discussion. >=20 > The first area of comments I have is on how to position this draft relati= ve > to RFC 7084 and in a way that will maximize its impact and likelihood of > achieving its goal (which I think is to drive availability of CE routers = that > support *all* of the included transition technologies). >=20 > I notice the draft introduces the term "IPv6 transition CE". Sometimes th= is > is "IPv6 transition CE router". I like this idea, but would suggest > capitalizing and using the longer "IPv6 Transition CE Router". I think if > this is a more formal term and this draft is positioned as defining > requirements for an IPv6 Transition CE Router (rather than simply specify= ing > "the transition requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router") then= it > becomes ok to make most of the SHOULD requirements into a MUST. That is, = the > draft is not an extension of a CE Router (RFC 7084). It's something new t= hat > is specified and defined here. And should be the title of the draft. >=20 > Saying "MUST" is stronger than "SHOULD" and will increase likelihood of > success. It will also increase likelihood that *all* of the included > technologies are implemented (as currently written it would be possible t= o do > one or 2 of the technologies and still claim compliance). And it will mak= e it > easier to create a subsequent certification program, if there is demand f= or > one. If the MUST statements apply only to the IPv6 Transition CE Router t= his > draft defines, then there is no problem with saying "MUST". The requireme= nts > have no scope outside this draft. >=20 > ---------- >=20 > If taking this approach, requirements for DS-Lite would need to be includ= ed. > Those can be copied from RFC 7084. >=20 > ---------- >=20 > RFC 7084 can still be a basis for this new thing (MUST comply with RFC 70= 84). >=20 > The current requirement for RFC 7084 compliance is "The IPv6 Transition C= E > router must comply with all the requirements stated in [RFC7084]." > I suggest staying away from "all the requirements", since the RFC 7084 SH= OULD > and MAY requirements are also requirements, and I don't think it's intend= ed > to mandate those. I recommend simply saying: > The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comply with [RFC7084]. >=20 > --------- >=20 > If done this way, I don't think it's necessary to make mention of 6rd in = any > way. It's omission from this draft will make it clear that it's not a > component of an IPv6 Transition CE Router. >=20 >=20 > Barbara >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Wed Apr 25 23:50:00 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 24290127867 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:49:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id lMliGHELR7VE for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:49:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 776E81205F0 for ; Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3Q6nsf6031470; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 08:49:54 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 4AE5B201A9B; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 08:49:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 3D7D72011EE; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 08:49:54 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3Q6nrqn002974; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 08:49:54 +0200 To: Erik Kline Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org" References: <5e02c3d9-5382-205e-f552-496da5c529bc@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <06215003-2399-b647-1120-12624bba9d77@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 08:49:53 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] When IPv6 breaks IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 06:49:59 -0000 Le 26/04/2018 à 05:20, Erik Kline a écrit : > Stock Android does not support manually setting any IPv6 parameters whatsoever. That's a problem in first place :-) Other OSs in the same class do support it. If Android supported it (configure IPv6 address manually) then no-one else would have to add it. > > This means you were using some feature added by someone else. Proper > integration with the rest of the platform may not have been easy. I agree. Some feature of someone else would need to be addressed. Alex > > On 26 April 2018 at 01:26, Alexandre Petrescu > wrote: >> There was a presentation at an IETF meeting in v6ops, about when people >> recommend to rather turn off IPv6 on some consumer electronics (Netgear was >> that?). The GUI was telling in red characters to rather turn off IPv6, >> instead of risking IPv4 not working either. >> >> Today I had a similar experience. >> >> The hardened Android tablet Aaeon by ASUS (described in AAEON_RTC-700B.PDF) >> has an Ethernet port which is great. The Android GUI allows to set an IPv6 >> address in a field. I put there "1::1" because it is very fast to type on a >> virtual keyboard. After that, the Ethernet stopped working in IPv4 >> altogether. Long press reboot button does not solve it. There is no means >> to revert back, not possible to remove that IPv6 address. >> >> Now I can throw out a window this tablet, for two reasons: neither IPv6 is >> working, nor IPv4 is working. There is no reset button, no documentation >> about 'cold reset' and there are are two batteries: one main and one backup. >> The backup can be removed but the main is hardened. I suspect that even if >> the main battery dies out the GUI config file containing that "1::1" will >> still be there for many years a writeable RAM lasts. >> >> Worse, I did this in front of partner, in my good intentions to illustrate >> proof how IPv6 is so present everywhere already. >> >> Next time I will be more moderate about my trust in IPv6 availability. >> >> Alex >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> From nobody Thu Apr 26 00:01:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7743A126FDC for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:01:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.9 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id E9KVNDdreTyZ for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from accordion.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [198.137.202.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D72A61205F0 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h.hanazo.no (96.51-175-103.customer.lyse.net [51.175.103.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by accordion.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A3F892D51C4 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:01:06 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 977EF202EB216E for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:01:02 +0200 (CEST) From: Ole Troan Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_8F0B4453-7EDB-46F9-85EB-38776B1D090C"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:01:01 +0200 References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> To: V6 Ops List In-Reply-To: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> Message-Id: <6334FC96-5DC0-4ADF-BBD7-1746A885C6AB@employees.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:01:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_8F0B4453-7EDB-46F9-85EB-38776B1D090C Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii For the IPv4aaS mechanisms, the IETF could not come to consensus and = ended up standardizing all the proposed solutions. This is failure. This same thing happened with the IPv6aaS (6to4, 6over4, 6rd, L2TP, = Teredo...) mechanisms. Where the IETF tried to "fix" that by e.g. = shutting down the ngtrans working group. For the IPv6aaS, history declared a few winners (6rd, NAT64), but it led = to a lot of pain on the way (6to4 / Teredo / NAT-PT). I don't think the IPv4aaS mechanisms have equal risk of damage as what = 6to4/Teredo had. Still, is there anything we have learnt from the last 3-5 years? Does it help or harm, that the IETF publishes a document perpetuating = the failure? Ole > On 15 Apr 2018, at 07:00, Fred Baker wrote: >=20 > At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented = draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas. The draft is at = https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas, and = his presentation deck is at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transi= tion-requirements-for-ipv6-ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00. >=20 > I would like to invite discussion. >=20 > In particular, this draft derives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, = and the chairs wonder if it should be reposted as the next version of = draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That should happen if an only if the = working group thinks it should be published as an RFC (now or at some = point) adding considerations for implementors of RFC 7084 and also = implementing transition services. >=20 > A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many = transition mechanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that = opinion, if you could give that advice, identify the mechanism or = mechanisms you think should be listed, and indicate the reasoning behind = your viewpoint. For example, if you think MAP-T should be listed, it = would be helpful to know what operators are implementing MAP-T and are = looking for CE Routers that support it. The same comment applies to any = such mechanism or service. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --Apple-Mail=_8F0B4453-7EDB-46F9-85EB-38776B1D090C Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEIHjMMkzxtT+/bDNdvtpYqJhC33YFAlrheS0ACgkQvtpYqJhC 33ay6Q//f24zFRJltbK7HfpMtcpFIx+qDSjI14DaLHKPs154F1aUsVCe1M3UyMEi Eh67Eu8D5LUnY6qtN/sJcXseuQf94cCl/mxSf2Yy9Je76AcGxVUUvGWX6j9mHeCh dLvCvY4pK9Ghp11FaGDz+TNfelUe6hsXjpyllx64ivHZ9FlonvRBbK16sKLyNDAE myMGZDAaYe9z86a/KqsaDOi94NbLlktICU7t6u50X2lKw887H0uRgI+495DNEgdv LN7nD2w3S/EAr8W+mBT/bJvG/dULIP5JXLRT08dZ3bZ6RpqsyIPl5oyfYOrxDnoO jqBpfc6IZPLczIyZnLXDnmgFXP+zYgwwkfH/oQiWFbuPHdYEBSanRnSvDUow92ah ZJ6XFwnlKh4MLDNHMcfLInowk1JKx9+C/8JWdW6hPuMG51C6XI8UpPvqQayJnNug e4flQweCDldrPihzguQROiZGdI7KOmWYnzzqMQZsC4GMor1OtuY3mcRrwjyZJq4l cL3Z8rToFGdXMfhcyStvFxDBtYczQWWiQXzpcdsL/mxfJAhfFAKrwdGIiTGkBsKv ckGKbllkNXeLMB+HZkvfI5mL26elB9CdoXNmWFl/jmtj+FA5yD0IPynDlvdryeVn 5tGBqfSfO25WNPCGxJFFe7ojf735s2ksX1jxTk0VwWRO+p9L5ZA= =ZAmC -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_8F0B4453-7EDB-46F9-85EB-38776B1D090C-- From nobody Thu Apr 26 00:07:11 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5C9FA126B7E for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:07:09 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dZ4hs_TyVVhg for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F5761205F0 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:07:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524726425; x=1525331225; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:Mime-version: Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=DDh3Hn8jjTPYh+UE6NV1i xB+mnRdzcHud1duC50fmhQ=; b=QCwhz5BCKkK+ayREHkmkg8vWTvsxZPz363QuS 1caUEOlHfJZkRlBo8UVw1LvoKycQYumhzzCSoRFUVMs6q1xeDZue8iKD5BSXXn5D LD3RPGkuvkkzYE48JaifMrOsjJ/UMFOxSyMbvxjh6tVMYZaqSBSQWlJfRGoEKJwS pQjmBg= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:07:05 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:07:04 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005758409.msg for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:07:04 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:5d10:1cc6:6774:1393 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:07:04 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1654602c4e=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:06:40 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:07:09 -0000 Hi Med, My personal opinion is still that a bis makes more sense, but I think that = train already left. So, what I think it make sense now is to update only the transition section= on RFC7084 in this new document, may be something like: "This document updates RFC7084 by deleting section 4.4. RFC7084 is, as a co= nsequence, reduced in scope to the specification of requirements for an IPv= 6 Customer Edge, not including transition support, so all the transition re= quirements are defined instead, in this document." Then we avoid any mention of 6rd and include the DS-Lite section in this do= cument. Med, Barbara, what do you think? Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Fecha: jueves, 26 de abril de 2018, 8:20 Para: "STARK, BARBARA H" , V6 Ops List Asunto: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft Re-, =20 I do think this would be so simple if the WG went for a bis document.= =20 =20 I don't understand the rationale for duplicating DS-Lite content given = that Jordi's I-D points to 7084.=20 =20 Cheers, Med =20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de STARK, BARBA= RA H > Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 25 avril 2018 20:59 > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > Objet : [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft >=20 > I have a number of comments for draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas.= I'm > grouping comments under different email subject headers so it's easie= r to > track the topic of any resulting discussion. >=20 > The first area of comments I have is on how to position this draft re= lative > to RFC 7084 and in a way that will maximize its impact and likelihood= of > achieving its goal (which I think is to drive availability of CE rout= ers that > support *all* of the included transition technologies). >=20 > I notice the draft introduces the term "IPv6 transition CE". Sometime= s this > is "IPv6 transition CE router". I like this idea, but would suggest > capitalizing and using the longer "IPv6 Transition CE Router". I thin= k if > this is a more formal term and this draft is positioned as defining > requirements for an IPv6 Transition CE Router (rather than simply spe= cifying > "the transition requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router") = then it > becomes ok to make most of the SHOULD requirements into a MUST. That = is, the > draft is not an extension of a CE Router (RFC 7084). It's something n= ew that > is specified and defined here. And should be the title of the draft. >=20 > Saying "MUST" is stronger than "SHOULD" and will increase likelihood = of > success. It will also increase likelihood that *all* of the included > technologies are implemented (as currently written it would be possib= le to do > one or 2 of the technologies and still claim compliance). And it will= make it > easier to create a subsequent certification program, if there is dema= nd for > one. If the MUST statements apply only to the IPv6 Transition CE Rout= er this > draft defines, then there is no problem with saying "MUST". The requi= rements > have no scope outside this draft. >=20 > ---------- >=20 > If taking this approach, requirements for DS-Lite would need to be in= cluded. > Those can be copied from RFC 7084. >=20 > ---------- >=20 > RFC 7084 can still be a basis for this new thing (MUST comply with RF= C 7084). >=20 > The current requirement for RFC 7084 compliance is "The IPv6 Transiti= on CE > router must comply with all the requirements stated in [RFC7084]." > I suggest staying away from "all the requirements", since the RFC 708= 4 SHOULD > and MAY requirements are also requirements, and I don't think it's in= tended > to mandate those. I recommend simply saying: > The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comply with [RFC7084]. >=20 > --------- >=20 > If done this way, I don't think it's necessary to make mention of 6rd= in any > way. It's omission from this draft will make it clear that it's not a > component of an IPv6 Transition CE Router. >=20 >=20 > Barbara >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Apr 26 00:17:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC589127867 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:16:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 4XSnRZuQloRG for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:16:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BDE8412704A for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:16:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524727015; x=1525331815; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=CByLcHEg dzlTg7DuiVy/k3KOzJnhvxDX1/vrcAEeo+Y=; b=Hh/41HOhr3dCK98mSBqrK/7k 3ReObMi4Vk2WDEGTw5vR3b2yupGtd6E0VDTqr1wU0bseW1DrS22HfgUMOCrnUI5n a1NYK7mmma+FV6fAsl+usCvrC+qYz9Y7QIoaCVzYD7KIr4qvmiwjstLE6H6sUaRn +WzlSH7VywJ9RcaG+eI= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:16:55 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:16:54 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005758414.msg for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:16:54 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:5d10:1cc6:6774:1393 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:16:54 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1654602c4e=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:16:52 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <5DF54225-5D63-44B1-B8ED-1A24D9A1FA5F@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <6334FC96-5DC0-4ADF-BBD7-1746A885C6AB@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <6334FC96-5DC0-4ADF-BBD7-1746A885C6AB@employees.org> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:17:00 -0000 Hi Ole, I agree in part with you. We defined too many transition mechanisms, but we= are only engineers, not fortune tellers with a crystal ball, so we needed = to "learn" from our own mistakes and enhance the earlier transitions techni= ques. Also, we need to understand that not all the networks have the same way to = do things, not same requirements, etc. For example, MAP is fantastic if you have a broadband network only, but if = you have also a cellular network, or you want to offer LTE backup to your b= roadband network, it makes more sense 464XLAT. Looking into that, I think it help to have a document that summarizes those= mechanisms that, after few years, look like the winners, so implementors a= nd ISPs have an easier "single document" to follow and converge. If we look= at all the options that we have for IPv4aaS, I think this document is redu= cing them to the half, which I think is a very good step. I wish we can for example say "the best option is 464XLAT", is the only one= supported in both broadband and cellular, and list only that one, but I th= ink this is difficult to happen. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Ole Troan Fecha: jueves, 26 de abril de 2018, 9:01 Para: V6 Ops List Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion For the IPv4aaS mechanisms, the IETF could not come to consensus and en= ded up standardizing all the proposed solutions. This is failure. This same thing happened with the IPv6aaS (6to4, 6over4, 6rd, L2TP, Ter= edo...) mechanisms. Where the IETF tried to "fix" that by e.g. shutting dow= n the ngtrans working group. =20 For the IPv6aaS, history declared a few winners (6rd, NAT64), but it le= d to a lot of pain on the way (6to4 / Teredo / NAT-PT). I don't think the IPv4aaS mechanisms have equal risk of damage as what = 6to4/Teredo had. =20 Still, is there anything we have learnt from the last 3-5 years? Does it help or harm, that the IETF publishes a document perpetuating t= he failure? =20 Ole =20 > On 15 Apr 2018, at 07:00, Fred Baker wrote= : >=20 > At IETF 101, Jordi Palet Martinez presented draft-palet-v6ops-transit= ion-ipv4aas. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-= transition-ipv4aas, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.iet= f.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-transition-requirements-for-ip= v6-ce-routers-to-support-ipv4-as-a-service-00. >=20 > I would like to invite discussion. >=20 > In particular, this draft derives from draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis, = and the chairs wonder if it should be reposted as the next version of draft= -ietf-v6ops-rfc7084-bis. That should happen if an only if the working group= thinks it should be published as an RFC (now or at some point) adding cons= iderations for implementors of RFC 7084 and also implementing transition se= rvices. >=20 > A key comment at IETF 101 was that there remain far too many transiti= on mechanisms listed. It would be helpful, if you hold that opinion, if you= could give that advice, identify the mechanism or mechanisms you think sho= uld be listed, and indicate the reasoning behind your viewpoint. For exampl= e, if you think MAP-T should be listed, it would be helpful to know what op= erators are implementing MAP-T and are looking for CE Routers that support = it. The same comment applies to any such mechanism or service. >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Apr 26 00:27:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id C9B5612EAD3 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:27:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.599 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.599 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ocfPo5b2nQz9 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:27:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orange.com (mta240.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.66.40]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1F64412E8A1 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar06.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.8]) by opfedar27.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 40WpYm02bzz2yyt; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:27:40 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.63]) by opfedar06.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id D424280066; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:27:39 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM6E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::f5a7:eab1:c095:d9ec%18]) with mapi id 14.03.0389.001; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:27:39 +0200 From: To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft Thread-Index: AQHT3S05UzZZ7j/quUSCl0Ux5m6VcqQSohnw Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:27:39 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11D60@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IHY2b3BzIG1h aWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiB2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWls bWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQo= From nobody Thu Apr 26 00:35:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id CF6F3127058 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:34:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id f2TwyAjwq-MH for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C034D1204DA for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:34:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524728095; x=1525332895; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=0mpsgtBr pnqiG2CSYGFjrjvXWFo8EEA6T+QxJxpL72s=; b=pTyPolH7uhWjhOakuIYDw6E/ N09b0we/XrAyjXdsuY819FdYMXbCf4KwJ4zAEfu6MFRNJHudOR3aa/w4e+2X8pyX ncH4Pt9KG8sc4FHUoeabjDacKo38IWHxcvZIdGxSNhnCy5kQAiHfoCSXTM7xIQm4 gx2Ckfyurh7YttNMlw8= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:34:55 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:34:54 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005758428.msg for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:34:54 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:5d10:1cc6:6774:1393 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:34:54 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1654602c4e=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:34:50 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <7FEDC4E8-D60B-4CA1-BAFC-3D1B1B453BC7@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11D60@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11D60@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:34:59 -0000 I believe an RFC can update a previous one in any sense. So, what I'm suggesting is deleting a section that now includes DS-Lite and= 6rd, but only including DS-Lite in the new document. Current section "4.4. Transition Technologies Support", includes only 2 su= b-sections 4.4.1 6rd, and 4.4.2. Nothing else. So I'm suggesting that we co= py 4.4.2, as suggested by Barbara, but left out 4.4.1. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Fecha: jueves, 26 de abril de 2018, 9:27 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Asunto: RE: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft Re-, =20 I don't parse well what is meant by an update which consists in moving = the content from an RFC to another "future" RFC.=20 =20 Cheers, Med =20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PALET = MARTINEZ > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 09:07 > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > Objet : Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft >=20 > Hi Med, >=20 > My personal opinion is still that a bis makes more sense, but I think= that > train already left. >=20 > So, what I think it make sense now is to update only the transition s= ection > on RFC7084 in this new document, may be something like: >=20 > "This document updates RFC7084 by deleting section 4.4. RFC7084 is, a= s a > consequence, reduced in scope to the specification of requirements fo= r an > IPv6 Customer Edge, not including transition support, so all the tran= sition > requirements are defined instead, in this document." >=20 > Then we avoid any mention of 6rd and include the DS-Lite section in t= his > document. >=20 > Med, Barbara, what do you think? >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: v6ops en nombre de > > Fecha: jueves, 26 de abril de 2018, 8:20 > Para: "STARK, BARBARA H" , V6 Ops List > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft >=20 > Re-, >=20 > I do think this would be so simple if the WG went for a bis docum= ent. >=20 > I don't understand the rationale for duplicating DS-Lite content = given > that Jordi's I-D points to 7084. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de STARK,= BARBARA > H > > Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 25 avril 2018 20:59 > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > Objet : [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft > > > > I have a number of comments for draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ip= v4aas. > I'm > > grouping comments under different email subject headers so it's= easier > to > > track the topic of any resulting discussion. > > > > The first area of comments I have is on how to position this dr= aft > relative > > to RFC 7084 and in a way that will maximize its impact and like= lihood > of > > achieving its goal (which I think is to drive availability of C= E > routers that > > support *all* of the included transition technologies). > > > > I notice the draft introduces the term "IPv6 transition CE". So= metimes > this > > is "IPv6 transition CE router". I like this idea, but would sug= gest > > capitalizing and using the longer "IPv6 Transition CE Router". = I think > if > > this is a more formal term and this draft is positioned as defi= ning > > requirements for an IPv6 Transition CE Router (rather than simp= ly > specifying > > "the transition requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) rou= ter") > then it > > becomes ok to make most of the SHOULD requirements into a MUST.= That > is, the > > draft is not an extension of a CE Router (RFC 7084). It's somet= hing new > that > > is specified and defined here. And should be the title of the d= raft. > > > > Saying "MUST" is stronger than "SHOULD" and will increase likel= ihood of > > success. It will also increase likelihood that *all* of the inc= luded > > technologies are implemented (as currently written it would be = possible > to do > > one or 2 of the technologies and still claim compliance). And i= t will > make it > > easier to create a subsequent certification program, if there i= s demand > for > > one. If the MUST statements apply only to the IPv6 Transition C= E Router > this > > draft defines, then there is no problem with saying "MUST". The > requirements > > have no scope outside this draft. > > > > ---------- > > > > If taking this approach, requirements for DS-Lite would need to= be > included. > > Those can be copied from RFC 7084. > > > > ---------- > > > > RFC 7084 can still be a basis for this new thing (MUST comply w= ith RFC > 7084). > > > > The current requirement for RFC 7084 compliance is "The IPv6 Tr= ansition > CE > > router must comply with all the requirements stated in [RFC7084= ]." > > I suggest staying away from "all the requirements", since the R= FC 7084 > SHOULD > > and MAY requirements are also requirements, and I don't think i= t's > intended > > to mandate those. I recommend simply saying: > > The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comply with [RFC7084]. > > > > --------- > > > > If done this way, I don't think it's necessary to make mention = of 6rd > in any > > way. It's omission from this draft will make it clear that it's= not a > > component of an IPv6 Transition CE Router. > > > > > > Barbara > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use= of the > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized discl= osure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve= n if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will = be > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient = be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of = this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply = to the > original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Apr 26 00:52:37 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D386C127023 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:52:36 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id rzgg5VH-qDUa for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orange.com (mta241.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 135BC1204DA for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 00:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.6]) by opfedar22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id B16A860BF4; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:52:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.57]) by opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 9420A40087; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:52:32 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM23.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::787e:db0c:23c4:71b3%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0389.001; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 09:52:32 +0200 From: To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft Thread-Index: AQHT3TEcBIQyMIdfpkujRW0HcUSIrKQSqKZw Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:52:31 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11DB7@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11D60@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <7FEDC4E8-D60B-4CA1-BAFC-3D1B1B453BC7@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: <7FEDC4E8-D60B-4CA1-BAFC-3D1B1B453BC7@consulintel.es> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 07:52:37 -0000 UmUtLA0KDQouLmJ1dCB5b3UgaGF2ZSBhbHNvIHRoaXMgIlRoZSBJUHY2IFRyYW5zaXRpb24gQ0Ug cm91dGVyIE1VU1QgY29tcGx5IHdpdGggW1JGQzcwODRdIiB3aGljaCBtZWFucyB0aGF0IHRoZSBk b2N1bWVudCBpcyBhc2tpbmcgdG8gY29tcGx5IHdpdGggYW4gUkZDICh0aGF0IGl0cyB1cGRhdGVz 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ZiB0aGUgY29udGVudHMgb2YgdGhpcw0KPiBpbmZvcm1hdGlvbiwgZXZlbiBpZiBwYXJ0aWFsbHks IGluY2x1ZGluZyBhdHRhY2hlZCBmaWxlcywgaXMgc3RyaWN0bHkNCj4gcHJvaGliaXRlZCwgd2ls bCBiZSBjb25zaWRlcmVkIGEgY3JpbWluYWwgb2ZmZW5zZSwgc28geW91IG11c3QgcmVwbHkgdG8g dGhlDQo+IG9yaWdpbmFsIHNlbmRlciB0byBpbmZvcm0gYWJvdXQgdGhpcyBjb21tdW5pY2F0aW9u IGFuZCBkZWxldGUgaXQuDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gDQo+IF9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IHY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiB2Nm9wc0BpZXRm Lm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQo= From nobody Thu Apr 26 01:00:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id AC985127023 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:00:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 36CMJIjTb4Cm for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:00:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3458E1204DA for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:00:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524729645; x=1525334445; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=amZg4fCw 5iMqTzRXMEED6Z6aMapD4MNpBwQdSV7uIgs=; b=h3jtN96n2rAPdcMeP3HKg7ux TCkzS32dGTtD8fVdWHK7dp4oVqM3L2Xi9lrE9cREvOT35ySUbilkZm736XcOxybd ij23OdUf4TSx9BwjQ2xN0RcCYsrRSwoYbHInFt7zGE7wvxu1emBLhmmbNXiUm1Or Is/uGw530HHVTF8dQBk= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 10:00:45 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 10:00:44 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005758449.msg for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 10:00:44 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:616b:2160:138b:b86e X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 10:00:44 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1654602c4e=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 10:00:43 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <5AFDBB64-F05C-4228-B9FA-F27A81554E90@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11D60@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <7FEDC4E8-D60B-4CA1-BAFC-3D1B1B453BC7@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11DB7@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11DB7@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 08:00:50 -0000 That's a good point, let's see if Barbara agree. I don't see a problem if it is made clear that this new document complement= s and updates RFC7084 in one specific section. Maybe the chairs or AD can c= onfirm this? "The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comply with [RFC7084], ignoring section= 4.4. as it becomes updated by this document" One more advantage of that approach is that when somebody finds somewhere a= reference to RFC7084, will be also noticing the update, so they will read = the new document, so it is a perfect way for 2 documents to become compleme= ntary. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Fecha: jueves, 26 de abril de 2018, 9:52 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Asunto: RE: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft Re-, =20 ..but you have also this "The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comply wit= h [RFC7084]" which means that the document is asking to comply with an RFC = (that its updates). A cross dependency is to be fixed.=20 =20 If you want to proceed with the update approach, then you should update= :=20 =20 OLD:=20 The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comply with [RFC7084]. =20 to something which says section 4.4.1 is to be ignored. =20 An alternate wording would be: =20 NEW: The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comply with [RFC7084] and its upda= tes. =20 But again, this is weird given that an "update" is this document.=20 =20 Cheers, Med =20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PALET = MARTINEZ > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 09:35 > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > Objet : Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft >=20 > I believe an RFC can update a previous one in any sense. >=20 > So, what I'm suggesting is deleting a section that now includes DS-Li= te and > 6rd, but only including DS-Lite in the new document. >=20 > Current section "4.4. Transition Technologies Support", includes onl= y 2 sub- > sections 4.4.1 6rd, and 4.4.2. Nothing else. So I'm suggesting that w= e copy > 4.4.2, as suggested by Barbara, but left out 4.4.1. >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: > Fecha: jueves, 26 de abril de 2018, 9:27 > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft >=20 > Re-, >=20 > I don't parse well what is meant by an update which consists in m= oving > the content from an RFC to another "future" RFC. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI = PALET > MARTINEZ > > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 09:07 > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft > > > > Hi Med, > > > > My personal opinion is still that a bis makes more sense, but I= think > that > > train already left. > > > > So, what I think it make sense now is to update only the transi= tion > section > > on RFC7084 in this new document, may be something like: > > > > "This document updates RFC7084 by deleting section 4.4. RFC7084= is, as > a > > consequence, reduced in scope to the specification of requireme= nts for > an > > IPv6 Customer Edge, not including transition support, so all th= e > transition > > requirements are defined instead, in this document." > > > > Then we avoid any mention of 6rd and include the DS-Lite sectio= n in > this > > document. > > > > Med, Barbara, what do you think? > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > De: v6ops en nombre de > > > > Fecha: jueves, 26 de abril de 2018, 8:20 > > Para: "STARK, BARBARA H" , V6 Ops List > > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft > > > > Re-, > > > > I do think this would be so simple if the WG went for a bis > document. > > > > I don't understand the rationale for duplicating DS-Lite co= ntent > given > > that Jordi's I-D points to 7084. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de = STARK, > BARBARA > > H > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 25 avril 2018 20:59 > > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > > Objet : [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft > > > > > > I have a number of comments for draft-palet-v6ops-transit= ion- > ipv4aas. > > I'm > > > grouping comments under different email subject headers s= o it's > easier > > to > > > track the topic of any resulting discussion. > > > > > > The first area of comments I have is on how to position t= his > draft > > relative > > > to RFC 7084 and in a way that will maximize its impact an= d > likelihood > > of > > > achieving its goal (which I think is to drive availabilit= y of CE > > routers that > > > support *all* of the included transition technologies). > > > > > > I notice the draft introduces the term "IPv6 transition C= E". > Sometimes > > this > > > is "IPv6 transition CE router". I like this idea, but wou= ld > suggest > > > capitalizing and using the longer "IPv6 Transition CE Rou= ter". I > think > > if > > > this is a more formal term and this draft is positioned a= s > defining > > > requirements for an IPv6 Transition CE Router (rather tha= n simply > > specifying > > > "the transition requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (C= E) > router") > > then it > > > becomes ok to make most of the SHOULD requirements into a= MUST. > That > > is, the > > > draft is not an extension of a CE Router (RFC 7084). It's > something new > > that > > > is specified and defined here. And should be the title of= the > draft. > > > > > > Saying "MUST" is stronger than "SHOULD" and will increase > likelihood of > > > success. It will also increase likelihood that *all* of t= he > included > > > technologies are implemented (as currently written it wou= ld be > possible > > to do > > > one or 2 of the technologies and still claim compliance).= And it > will > > make it > > > easier to create a subsequent certification program, if t= here is > demand > > for > > > one. If the MUST statements apply only to the IPv6 Transi= tion CE > Router > > this > > > draft defines, then there is no problem with saying "MUST= ". The > > requirements > > > have no scope outside this draft. > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > If taking this approach, requirements for DS-Lite would n= eed to > be > > included. > > > Those can be copied from RFC 7084. > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > RFC 7084 can still be a basis for this new thing (MUST co= mply > with RFC > > 7084). > > > > > > The current requirement for RFC 7084 compliance is "The I= Pv6 > Transition > > CE > > > router must comply with all the requirements stated in > [RFC7084]." > > > I suggest staying away from "all the requirements", since= the RFC > 7084 > > SHOULD > > > and MAY requirements are also requirements, and I don't t= hink > it's > > intended > > > to mandate those. I recommend simply saying: > > > The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comply with [RFC7084]. > > > > > > --------- > > > > > > If done this way, I don't think it's necessary to make me= ntion of > 6rd > > in any > > > way. It's omission from this draft will make it clear tha= t it's > not a > > > component of an IPv6 Transition CE Router. > > > > > > > > > Barbara > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > v6ops mailing list > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.consulintel.es > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be privi= leged or > > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusi= ve use > of the > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this informatio= n, even > if > > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and= will be > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended reci= pient be > aware > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the conten= ts of > this > > information, even if partially, including attached files, is st= rictly > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must = reply to > the > > original sender to inform about this communication and delete i= t. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use= of the > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized discl= osure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve= n if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will = be > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient = be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of = this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply = to the > original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Apr 26 01:42:09 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7406A12420B for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:42:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.632 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.632 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Bn7cq5tAGtMZ for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:42:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EB6C4120227 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:42:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3Q8g3Ts025075 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 10:42:03 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 1BA8120483A for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 10:42:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 118192047D8 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 10:42:03 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.85.86] ([132.166.85.86]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3Q8g2Wh012629 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 10:42:02 +0200 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <5e02c3d9-5382-205e-f552-496da5c529bc@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <1d3f3c55-9a06-8354-b6cd-a25cc2771422@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 10:42:02 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] When IPv6 breaks IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 08:42:07 -0000 Le 25/04/2018 à 20:03, João Butzke a écrit : > Thats a sad story, RIP TABLET. > > Today we are having some issues with MikroTik, i updated the routers for > the new version because of a winbox vulnerability and now ipv6 on my > network is DEAD. > > Some brands do not give the proper attention to IPv6 and things like > that happen, very sadly. I agree with you. I have a growing list with recent and innovative hardware equipment (faster, smaller, new link layers, etc.) that does not support IPv6 at all. Tablets, IoT devices, miniPCIe LTE interfaces, USB dongles... The first thing these innovative devices support is IPv4. Otherwise it wont sell. Even us, at IETF, whenever we write a new hot Internet Draft we put it on an IPv4 website first. (I guess datatracker is not reachable on IPv6, just guess.) I had this idea the other day to post an Internet Draft on an IPv6-only website to see whether I miss an important feedback from IPv4-only readers. Alex > > Trying to solve wtf is happening. > > Best Regards, > João Butzke. > > Em 25/04/2018 13:26, Alexandre Petrescu escreveu: >> There was a presentation at an IETF meeting in v6ops, about when >> people recommend to rather turn off IPv6 on some consumer electronics >> (Netgear was that?).  The GUI was telling in red characters to rather >> turn off IPv6, instead of risking IPv4 not working either. >> >> Today I had a similar experience. >> >> The hardened Android tablet Aaeon by ASUS (described in >> AAEON_RTC-700B.PDF) has an Ethernet port which is great.  The Android >> GUI allows to set an IPv6 address in a field.  I put there "1::1" >> because it is very fast to type on a virtual keyboard.  After that, >> the Ethernet stopped working in IPv4 altogether.  Long press reboot >> button does not solve it. There is no means to revert back, not >> possible to remove that IPv6 address. >> >> Now I can throw out a window this tablet, for two reasons: neither >> IPv6 is working, nor IPv4 is working.  There is no reset button, no >> documentation about 'cold reset' and there are are two batteries: one >> main and one backup.  The backup can be removed but the main is >> hardened.  I suspect that even if the main battery dies out the GUI >> config file containing that "1::1" will still be there for many years >> a writeable RAM lasts. >> >> Worse, I did this in front of partner, in my good intentions to >> illustrate proof how IPv6 is so present everywhere already. >> >> Next time I will be more moderate about my trust in IPv6 availability. >> >> Alex >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Thu Apr 26 01:49:47 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1086012420B for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:49:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.199 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.199 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id CBhsrwM2OBOq for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from omr2.cc.vt.edu (omr2.cc.ipv6.vt.edu [IPv6:2607:b400:92:8400:0:33:fb76:806e]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2DBD1127058 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mr1.cc.vt.edu (mr1.cc.ipv6.vt.edu [IPv6:2607:b400:92:8300:0:31:1732:8aa4]) by omr2.cc.vt.edu (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w3Q8nfKZ007607 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 04:49:41 -0400 Received: from mail-lf0-f69.google.com (mail-lf0-f69.google.com [209.85.215.69]) by mr1.cc.vt.edu (8.14.7/8.14.7) with ESMTP id w3Q8nZWb001482 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 04:49:40 -0400 Received: by mail-lf0-f69.google.com with SMTP id y202-v6so6470465lfd.0 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:49:40 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=0IEjHHfoardY/nzkkbhGaRzxdTP9GgmeHyKR1jm0XgM=; b=cw80YRgNZfKDMaIv9wzNhwBwG+pRcf6i1jqCf891VGny8GRJb+5JrDEOmnN3JcDrSE Fw9MC7AayeX/faBlBya+I2n6RYJx6J7xgzayXU/B9jfh+8YzPr5bURy7gkrNAcZvFwdv S1oXI30shhcS0iDlvzlqN/r+btd8Hm0NXm9mQ6XSa1XTcUpmuXcxR8N/Q3u21E1bOkjO Ca2Ui+jbpV1Buf1YghzpbGBfld5Lusnciqct9lY0X21WXSAKtNY7noiAinj7nNJoj9Az sh3tUtvxM199t4QC/7KG01MgARFiQT8tIaEaff7OS7ma9U5KC/uIMx8lX+oPCzillSH+ VtGA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCsQYO4oI7Sgga1C1f8YVwuVinqVOW1cf5qlHF5upGv38s367Sa nLjt524QE9e2JdqygCv3stt/vYWYfLyhrhTNo142TLP1iMOyCmW7HngakW+QYeu8CxJH55q9wrZ 17jWf6RICuAu0FFLRIHbDLlODyi2DF8GJ X-Received: by 2002:a19:434c:: with SMTP id m12-v6mr16732868lfj.120.1524732574735; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:49:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZrE1Odp3AS3sF3KpeM8NM61/iMfMkndlOEK1ta9OLH37A3ejZjQQBlnFPoQJiU4CNeomWkbgKz2SQ7es0TGFFM= X-Received: by 2002:a19:434c:: with SMTP id m12-v6mr16732853lfj.120.1524732574308; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:49:34 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <5e02c3d9-5382-205e-f552-496da5c529bc@gmail.com> <1d3f3c55-9a06-8354-b6cd-a25cc2771422@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <1d3f3c55-9a06-8354-b6cd-a25cc2771422@gmail.com> From: Clark Gaylord Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 08:49:23 +0000 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000783263056abc7715" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] When IPv6 breaks IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 08:49:45 -0000 --000000000000783263056abc7715 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We do a fair amount of work with IoT type devices (connected vehicles and such) and a point I make is if you are an IoT vendor and you aren't thinking IPv6 *first*, you aren't serious about IoT. Without IPv6, there is no IoT. I've never had them run right home and re-engineer their product, but it does get them thinking about strategy. This is a message that as a community we must consistently hammer. FWIW we are seeing more awareness, if slowly, but it's still surprising how many ostriches still have their head in the sand. Clark On Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 04:42 Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > > > Le 25/04/2018 =C3=A0 20:03, Jo=C3=A3o Butzke a =C3=A9crit : > > Thats a sad story, RIP TABLET. > > > > Today we are having some issues with MikroTik, i updated the routers fo= r > > the new version because of a winbox vulnerability and now ipv6 on my > > network is DEAD. > > > > Some brands do not give the proper attention to IPv6 and things like > > that happen, very sadly. > > I agree with you. > > I have a growing list with recent and innovative hardware equipment > (faster, smaller, new link layers, etc.) that does not support IPv6 at > all. Tablets, IoT devices, miniPCIe LTE interfaces, USB dongles... The > first thing these innovative devices support is IPv4. Otherwise it wont > sell. > > Even us, at IETF, whenever we write a new hot Internet Draft we put it > on an IPv4 website first. (I guess datatracker is not reachable on IPv6, > just guess.) > > I had this idea the other day to post an Internet Draft on an IPv6-only > website to see whether I miss an important feedback from IPv4-only reader= s. > > Alex > > > > > Trying to solve wtf is happening. > > > > Best Regards, > > Jo=C3=A3o Butzke. > > > > Em 25/04/2018 13:26, Alexandre Petrescu escreveu: > >> There was a presentation at an IETF meeting in v6ops, about when > >> people recommend to rather turn off IPv6 on some consumer electronics > >> (Netgear was that?). The GUI was telling in red characters to rather > >> turn off IPv6, instead of risking IPv4 not working either. > >> > >> Today I had a similar experience. > >> > >> The hardened Android tablet Aaeon by ASUS (described in > >> AAEON_RTC-700B.PDF) has an Ethernet port which is great. The Android > >> GUI allows to set an IPv6 address in a field. I put there "1::1" > >> because it is very fast to type on a virtual keyboard. After that, > >> the Ethernet stopped working in IPv4 altogether. Long press reboot > >> button does not solve it. There is no means to revert back, not > >> possible to remove that IPv6 address. > >> > >> Now I can throw out a window this tablet, for two reasons: neither > >> IPv6 is working, nor IPv4 is working. There is no reset button, no > >> documentation about 'cold reset' and there are are two batteries: one > >> main and one backup. The backup can be removed but the main is > >> hardened. I suspect that even if the main battery dies out the GUI > >> config file containing that "1::1" will still be there for many years > >> a writeable RAM lasts. > >> > >> Worse, I did this in front of partner, in my good intentions to > >> illustrate proof how IPv6 is so present everywhere already. > >> > >> Next time I will be more moderate about my trust in IPv6 availability. > >> > >> Alex > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> v6ops mailing list > >> v6ops@ietf.org > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > --000000000000783263056abc7715 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We do a fair amount of work with IoT type devices (connected vehicles and s= uch) and a point I make is if you are an IoT vendor and you aren't thin= king IPv6 *first*, you aren't serious about IoT. Without IPv6, there is= no IoT. I've never had them run right home and re-engineer their produ= ct, but it does get them thinking about strategy. This is a message that as= a community we must consistently hammer.

FWIW we are se= eing more awareness, if slowly, but it's still surprising how many ostr= iches still have their head in the sand.=C2=A0

Cla= rk=C2=A0

On Thu, = Apr 26, 2018, 04:42 Alexandre Petrescu <alexandre.petrescu@gmail.com> wrote:


Le 25/04/2018 =C3=A0 20:03, Jo=C3=A3o Butzke a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:
> Thats a sad story, RIP TABLET.
>
> Today we are having some issues with MikroTik, i updated the routers f= or
> the new version because of a winbox vulnerability and now ipv6 on my <= br> > network is DEAD.
>
> Some brands do not give the proper attention to IPv6 and things like <= br> > that happen, very sadly.

I agree with you.

I have a growing list with recent and innovative hardware equipment
(faster, smaller, new link layers, etc.) that does not support IPv6 at
all. Tablets, IoT devices, miniPCIe LTE interfaces, USB dongles... The
first thing these innovative devices support is IPv4. Otherwise it wont
sell.

Even us, at IETF, whenever we write a new hot Internet Draft we put it
on an IPv4 website first. (I guess datatracker is not reachable on IPv6, just guess.)

I had this idea the other day to post an Internet Draft on an IPv6-only
website to see whether I miss an important feedback from IPv4-only readers.=

Alex

>
> Trying to solve wtf is happening.
>
> Best Regards,
> Jo=C3=A3o Butzke.
>
> Em 25/04/2018 13:26, Alexandre Petrescu escreveu:
>> There was a presentation at an IETF meeting in v6ops, about when <= br> >> people recommend to rather turn off IPv6 on some consumer electron= ics
>> (Netgear was that?).=C2=A0 The GUI was telling in red characters t= o rather
>> turn off IPv6, instead of risking IPv4 not working either.
>>
>> Today I had a similar experience.
>>
>> The hardened Android tablet Aaeon by ASUS (described in
>> AAEON_RTC-700B.PDF) has an Ethernet port which is great.=C2=A0 The= Android
>> GUI allows to set an IPv6 address in a field.=C2=A0 I put there &q= uot;1::1"
>> because it is very fast to type on a virtual keyboard.=C2=A0 After= that,
>> the Ethernet stopped working in IPv4 altogether.=C2=A0 Long press = reboot
>> button does not solve it. There is no means to revert back, not >> possible to remove that IPv6 address.
>>
>> Now I can throw out a window this tablet, for two reasons: neither=
>> IPv6 is working, nor IPv4 is working.=C2=A0 There is no reset butt= on, no
>> documentation about 'cold reset' and there are are two bat= teries: one
>> main and one backup.=C2=A0 The backup can be removed but the main = is
>> hardened.=C2=A0 I suspect that even if the main battery dies out t= he GUI
>> config file containing that "1::1" will still be there f= or many years
>> a writeable RAM lasts.
>>
>> Worse, I did this in front of partner, in my good intentions to >> illustrate proof how IPv6 is so present everywhere already.
>>
>> Next time I will be more moderate about my trust in IPv6 availabil= ity.
>>
>> Alex
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org=
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops<= br> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org=
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
--000000000000783263056abc7715-- From nobody Thu Apr 26 05:38:17 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45CE91201F2 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:38:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id V1-3uhPp-dt9 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:38:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tyo162.gate.nec.co.jp (tyo162.gate.nec.co.jp [114.179.232.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B7FE712DA00 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 05:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate01.nec.co.jp ([114.179.233.122]) by tyo162.gate.nec.co.jp (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPS id w3QCc1CL007921 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:38:01 +0900 Received: from mailsv01.nec.co.jp (mailgate-v.nec.co.jp [10.204.236.94]) by mailgate01.nec.co.jp (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTP id w3QCc1YH010001; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:38:01 +0900 Received: from mail01b.kamome.nec.co.jp (mail01b.kamome.nec.co.jp [10.25.43.2]) by mailsv01.nec.co.jp (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTP id w3QCc1LP004568; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:38:01 +0900 Received: from bpxc99gp.gisp.nec.co.jp ([10.38.151.150] [10.38.151.150]) by mail03.kamome.nec.co.jp with ESMTP id BT-MMP-116216; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:37:28 +0900 Received: from BPXM24GP.gisp.nec.co.jp ([10.38.151.216]) by BPXC22GP.gisp.nec.co.jp ([10.38.151.150]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:37:28 +0900 From: Masanobu Kawashima To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft Thread-Index: AQHT3TS3/qCHPLeAQUm+3IxVaNhP0qQS92jg Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:37:27 +0000 Message-ID: <81A3232BEF82944C8F23DB1CFE276F0F495BDF2C@BPXM24GP.gisp.nec.co.jp> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11D60@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <7FEDC4E8-D60B-4CA1-BAFC-3D1B1B453BC7@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11DB7@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5AFDBB64-F05C-4228-B9FA-F27A81554E90@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: <5AFDBB64-F05C-4228-B9FA-F27A81554E90@consulintel.es> Accept-Language: ja-JP, en-US Content-Language: ja-JP X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.3.141.178] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops 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ZWQgYSBjcmltaW5hbCBvZmZlbnNlLCBzbyB5b3UgbXVzdCByZXBseSB0byB0aGUgb3JpZ2luYWwg c2VuZGVyIHRvIGluZm9ybSBhYm91dA0KPiB0aGlzIGNvbW11bmljYXRpb24gYW5kIGRlbGV0ZSBp dC4NCj4gDQo+IA0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX18NCj4gdjZvcHMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0DQo+IHY2b3BzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBz Oi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vdjZvcHMNCg== From nobody Thu Apr 26 06:15:35 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0DCB91243F6 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 06:15:34 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) 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clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 15:15:28 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 15:15:27 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005758622.msg for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 15:15:26 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:80f4:bc40:c15d:6357 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 15:15:26 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1654602c4e=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 15:15:26 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <30082D9C-6846-48B3-8F42-30D7FE422645@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11D60@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <7FEDC4E8-D60B-4CA1-BAFC-3D1B1B453BC7@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11DB7@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5AFDBB64-F05C-4228-B9FA-F27A81554E90@consulintel.es> <81A3232BEF82944C8F23DB1CFE276F0F495BDF2C@BPXM24GP.gisp.nec.co.jp> In-Reply-To: <81A3232BEF82944C8F23DB1CFE276F0F495BDF2C@BPXM24GP.gisp.nec.co.jp> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 13:15:34 -0000 Hi Masanobu, In the last 2 years, we had a lot of debate about a possible RFC7084-bis (w= hich means obsoleting RFC7084), and the conclusion was that this is *not wa= nted*. I don't think we should restart that discussion anymore. So, what I'm proposing is "no need for an RFC7084-bis", however, the new do= cument can make an update only to the transition section of RFC7084 (no nee= d to modify this document, the RFC editor will make a header note on that o= ne to reflect the "link" to the new document). Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Masanobu Kawashima Fecha: jueves, 26 de abril de 2018, 14:38 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Asunto: RE: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft =20 I agree with Jordi.=20 =20 As for the positioning of this draft and RFC7084, I think following is = better=20 for CPE vendors, ISPs, etc.=20 =20 - RFC7084bis=20 - Delete 6rd and DS-Lite section and refer to "The IPv6 Transition CE= router"=20 document.=20 - Some other minor updates if it is needed.=20 =20 - 'The IPv6 Transition CE router' (transition-ipv4aas)=20 - Include DS-Lite section from RFC7084.=20 =20 If you want to know IPv6 CE router specs, you will check and comply RFC= 7084bis,=20 if you want to focus more on transition technologies, you can check and= comply=20 'The IPv6 Transition CE router' document.=20 =20 Regards,=20 Masanobu=20 =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 NEC Platforms, Ltd. =20 KAWASHIMA Masanobu =20 kawashimam@vx.jp.nec.com =20 https://www.necplatforms.co.jp/en/ =20 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=20 =20 =20 > -----Original Message----- > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of JORDI PALET = MARTINEZ > Sent: Thursday, April 26, 2018 5:01 PM > To: V6 Ops List > Subject: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft >=20 > That's a good point, let's see if Barbara agree. >=20 > I don't see a problem if it is made clear that this new document comp= lements and updates RFC7084 in one specific section. > Maybe the chairs or AD can confirm this? > "The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comply with [RFC7084], ignoring s= ection 4.4. as it becomes updated by this document" >=20 > One more advantage of that approach is that when somebody finds somew= here a reference to RFC7084, will be also noticing > the update, so they will read the new document, so it is a perfect wa= y for 2 documents to become complementary. >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: > Fecha: jueves, 26 de abril de 2018, 9:52 > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List = > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft >=20 > Re-, >=20 > ..but you have also this "The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comp= ly with [RFC7084]" which means that the document > is asking to comply with an RFC (that its updates). A cross dependenc= y is to be fixed. >=20 > If you want to proceed with the update approach, then you should = update: >=20 > OLD: > The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comply with [RFC7084]. >=20 > to something which says section 4.4.1 is to be ignored. >=20 > An alternate wording would be: >=20 > NEW: > The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comply with [RFC7084] and it= s updates. >=20 > But again, this is weird given that an "update" is this document. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI = PALET MARTINEZ > > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 09:35 > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft > > > > I believe an RFC can update a previous one in any sense. > > > > So, what I'm suggesting is deleting a section that now includes= DS-Lite and > > 6rd, but only including DS-Lite in the new document. > > > > Current section "4.4. Transition Technologies Support", includ= es only 2 sub- > > sections 4.4.1 6rd, and 4.4.2. Nothing else. So I'm suggesting = that we copy > > 4.4.2, as suggested by Barbara, but left out 4.4.1. > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > De: > > Fecha: jueves, 26 de abril de 2018, 9:27 > > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops= List > > > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft > > > > Re-, > > > > I don't parse well what is meant by an update which consist= s in moving > > the content from an RFC to another "future" RFC. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de = JORDI PALET > > MARTINEZ > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 09:07 > > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the d= raft > > > > > > Hi Med, > > > > > > My personal opinion is still that a bis makes more sense,= but I think > > that > > > train already left. > > > > > > So, what I think it make sense now is to update only the = transition > > section > > > on RFC7084 in this new document, may be something like: > > > > > > "This document updates RFC7084 by deleting section 4.4. R= FC7084 is, as > > a > > > consequence, reduced in scope to the specification of req= uirements for > > an > > > IPv6 Customer Edge, not including transition support, so = all the > > transition > > > requirements are defined instead, in this document." > > > > > > Then we avoid any mention of 6rd and include the DS-Lite = section in > > this > > > document. > > > > > > Med, Barbara, what do you think? > > > > > > Regards, > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > > De: v6ops en nombre de > > > > > > Fecha: jueves, 26 de abril de 2018, 8:20 > > > Para: "STARK, BARBARA H" , V6 Ops List > > > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the d= raft > > > > > > Re-, > > > > > > I do think this would be so simple if the WG went for= a bis > > document. > > > > > > I don't understand the rationale for duplicating DS-L= ite content > > given > > > that Jordi's I-D points to 7084. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Med > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la pa= rt de STARK, > > BARBARA > > > H > > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : mercredi 25 avril 2018 20:59 > > > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > > > Objet : [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the= draft > > > > > > > > I have a number of comments for draft-palet-v6ops-t= ransition- > > ipv4aas. > > > I'm > > > > grouping comments under different email subject hea= ders so it's > > easier > > > to > > > > track the topic of any resulting discussion. > > > > > > > > The first area of comments I have is on how to posi= tion this > > draft > > > relative > > > > to RFC 7084 and in a way that will maximize its imp= act and > > likelihood > > > of > > > > achieving its goal (which I think is to drive avail= ability of CE > > > routers that > > > > support *all* of the included transition technologi= es). > > > > > > > > I notice the draft introduces the term "IPv6 transi= tion CE". > > Sometimes > > > this > > > > is "IPv6 transition CE router". I like this idea, b= ut would > > suggest > > > > capitalizing and using the longer "IPv6 Transition = CE Router". I > > think > > > if > > > > this is a more formal term and this draft is positi= oned as > > defining > > > > requirements for an IPv6 Transition CE Router (rath= er than simply > > > specifying > > > > "the transition requirements for an IPv6 Customer E= dge (CE) > > router") > > > then it > > > > becomes ok to make most of the SHOULD requirements = into a MUST. > > That > > > is, the > > > > draft is not an extension of a CE Router (RFC 7084)= . It's > > something new > > > that > > > > is specified and defined here. And should be the ti= tle of the > > draft. > > > > > > > > Saying "MUST" is stronger than "SHOULD" and will in= crease > > likelihood of > > > > success. It will also increase likelihood that *all= * of the > > included > > > > technologies are implemented (as currently written = it would be > > possible > > > to do > > > > one or 2 of the technologies and still claim compli= ance). And it > > will > > > make it > > > > easier to create a subsequent certification program= , if there is > > demand > > > for > > > > one. If the MUST statements apply only to the IPv6 = Transition CE > > Router > > > this > > > > draft defines, then there is no problem with saying= "MUST". The > > > requirements > > > > have no scope outside this draft. > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > If taking this approach, requirements for DS-Lite w= ould need to > > be > > > included. > > > > Those can be copied from RFC 7084. > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > > > RFC 7084 can still be a basis for this new thing (M= UST comply > > with RFC > > > 7084). > > > > > > > > The current requirement for RFC 7084 compliance is = "The IPv6 > > Transition > > > CE > > > > router must comply with all the requirements stated= in > > [RFC7084]." > > > > I suggest staying away from "all the requirements",= since the RFC > > 7084 > > > SHOULD > > > > and MAY requirements are also requirements, and I d= on't think > > it's > > > intended > > > > to mandate those. I recommend simply saying: > > > > The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comply with [RFC= 7084]. > > > > > > > > --------- > > > > > > > > If done this way, I don't think it's necessary to m= ake mention of > > 6rd > > > in any > > > > way. It's omission from this draft will make it cle= ar that it's > > not a > > > > component of an IPv6 Transition CE Router. > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > v6ops mailing list > > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > v6ops mailing list > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > > IPv4 is over > > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > > http://www.consulintel.es > > > The IPv6 Company > > > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be= privileged or > > > confidential. The information is intended to be for the e= xclusive use > > of the > > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty auth= orized > > disclosure, > > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this info= rmation, even > > if > > > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibit= ed and will be > > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intende= d recipient be > > aware > > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the = contents of > > this > > > information, even if partially, including attached files,= is strictly > > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you= must reply to > > the > > > original sender to inform about this communication and de= lete it. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > v6ops mailing list > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.consulintel.es > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be privi= leged or > > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusi= ve use of the > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized= disclosure, > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this informatio= n, even if > > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and= will be > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended reci= pient be aware > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the conten= ts of this > > information, even if partially, including attached files, is st= rictly > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must = reply to the > > original sender to inform about this communication and delete i= t. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or confidential. The information is intended > to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and furt= her non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, > distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if part= ially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not = the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve= n if partially, including attached files, is > strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you mu= st reply to the original sender to inform about > this communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Apr 26 06:36:16 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id A7BCB12422F for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 06:36:14 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id q2EM6s9VN7fy for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 06:36:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from tyo162.gate.nec.co.jp (tyo162.gate.nec.co.jp [114.179.232.162]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 599DE126D0C for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 06:36:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mailgate02.nec.co.jp ([114.179.233.122]) by tyo162.gate.nec.co.jp (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTPS id w3QDa1a3028150 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NO); Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:36:01 +0900 Received: from mailsv01.nec.co.jp (mailgate-v.nec.co.jp [10.204.236.94]) by mailgate02.nec.co.jp (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTP id w3QDa1ja027986; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:36:01 +0900 Received: from mail03.kamome.nec.co.jp (mail03.kamome.nec.co.jp [10.25.43.7]) by mailsv01.nec.co.jp (8.15.1/8.15.1) with ESMTP id w3QDa1pj021355; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:36:01 +0900 Received: from bpxc99gp.gisp.nec.co.jp ([10.38.151.148] [10.38.151.148]) by mail01b.kamome.nec.co.jp with ESMTP id BT-MMP-83929; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:34:47 +0900 Received: from BPXM24GP.gisp.nec.co.jp ([10.38.151.216]) by BPXC20GP.gisp.nec.co.jp ([10.38.151.148]) with mapi id 14.03.0319.002; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:34:46 +0900 From: Masanobu Kawashima To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft Thread-Index: AQHT3TS3/qCHPLeAQUm+3IxVaNhP0qQS92jg//94lgCAAJtJwA== Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 13:34:46 +0000 Message-ID: <81A3232BEF82944C8F23DB1CFE276F0F495BE0DC@BPXM24GP.gisp.nec.co.jp> References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11D60@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <7FEDC4E8-D60B-4CA1-BAFC-3D1B1B453BC7@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF11DB7@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <5AFDBB64-F05C-4228-B9FA-F27A81554E90@consulintel.es> <81A3232BEF82944C8F23DB1CFE276F0F495BDF2C@BPXM24GP.gisp.nec.co.jp> <30082D9C-6846-48B3-8F42-30D7FE422645@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: <30082D9C-6846-48B3-8F42-30D7FE422645@consulintel.es> Accept-Language: ja-JP, en-US Content-Language: ja-JP X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.3.141.178] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 13:36:15 -0000 DQpKb3JkaSwgDQoNCkkgZ290IHlvdXIgcG9pbnQuIEl0IG1ha2VzIHNlbnNlIG5vdy4gVGhhbmsg eW91IGZvciB0aGUgY2xhcmlmaWNhdGlvbi4gDQoNClJlZ2FyZHMsIA0KTWFzYW5vYnUgDQoNCj09 PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PSANCiBORUMgUGxhdGZvcm1zLCBMdGQu ICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICANCiBLQVdBU0hJTUEgTWFzYW5vYnUgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAgICAN CiBrYXdhc2hpbWFtQHZ4LmpwLm5lYy5jb20gICAgICAgICAgICANCiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5uZWNw bGF0Zm9ybXMuY28uanAvZW4vICANCj09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09PT09 PSANCg0KDQo+IC0tLS0tT3JpZ2luYWwgTWVzc2FnZS0tLS0tDQo+IEZyb206IHY2b3BzIFttYWls dG86djZvcHMtYm91bmNlc0BpZXRmLm9yZ10gT24gQmVoYWxmIE9mIEpPUkRJIFBBTEVUIE1BUlRJ TkVaDQo+IFNlbnQ6IFRodXJzZGF5LCBBcHJpbCAyNiwgMjAxOCAxMDoxNSBQTQ0KPiBUbzogVjYg 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Apr 2018 06:37:24 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Ron Bonica To: X-Test-IDTracker: no X-IETF-IDTracker: 6.79.0 Auto-Submitted: auto-generated Precedence: bulk Cc: russ@riw.us, iesg-secretary@ietf.org, v6ops@ietf.org, v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, Russ White Message-ID: <152474984427.22984.6236190161819174792.idtracker@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 06:37:24 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] Publication has been requested for draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-03 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 13:37:24 -0000 Ron Bonica has requested publication of draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-03 as Informational on behalf of the V6OPS working group. Please verify the document's state at https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras/ From nobody Thu Apr 26 11:14:46 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8AA89127978 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 11:14:44 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ez8U1LKfQsjx for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 11:14:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CDEF5127873 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 11:14:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524766479; x=1525371279; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:Mime-version: Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=2p+OU/LM53Pma4mRoDWvV OxpD+DgEo7dzcnajkRbnaY=; b=uoaSIAaWal3xo1VUw4J+nfuQHzd8iC32xsac2 vPCTFyyHVUkQKyUvrC47IcMxMPuMFgEZobXbwG0afUGPonQrOHuaZ2IMviIUQMuq N3Zf5LQ7Ci8+mKjT2rMXR/9hBYKpNGe3179PjGGVd563uVe9C1nki98eqdtJdIsN P+H0qo= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:14:39 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:14:38 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005758804.msg for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:14:38 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:5004:edf7:d517:81bb X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:14:38 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1654602c4e=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:14:36 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <6A287B2F-EB6F-4AC5-A4A3-53E365181367@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 18:14:44 -0000 Hi Barbara, Lee, all, Please, read and provide your inputs as we have here a couple of key questi= ons: 1) Lee suggested a few days ago to make it short and instead of using "IPv6= Transition CE Router", use "CE Router". I'm fine either way, so will love if both of you can confirm your preferenc= e, so I can amend that in the new WG version. 2) I also follow Barbara rationale and like what she is suggesting about ma= king most of the SHOULDs a MUST. However, this is a key change, so will nee= d to understand if the WG will accept that. Thanks! Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de "STARK, BARBARA H" Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 25 de abril de 2018, 20:59 Para: V6 Ops List Asunto: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: positioning the draft I have a number of comments for draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas. I= 'm grouping comments under different email subject headers so it's easier t= o track the topic of any resulting discussion. =20 The first area of comments I have is on how to position this draft rela= tive to RFC 7084 and in a way that will maximize its impact and likelihood = of achieving its goal (which I think is to drive availability of CE routers= that support *all* of the included transition technologies). =20 I notice the draft introduces the term "IPv6 transition CE". Sometimes = this is "IPv6 transition CE router". I like this idea, but would suggest ca= pitalizing and using the longer "IPv6 Transition CE Router". I think if thi= s is a more formal term and this draft is positioned as defining requiremen= ts for an IPv6 Transition CE Router (rather than simply specifying "the tra= nsition requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router") then it become= s ok to make most of the SHOULD requirements into a MUST. That is, the draf= t is not an extension of a CE Router (RFC 7084). It's something new that is= specified and defined here. And should be the title of the draft. =20 Saying "MUST" is stronger than "SHOULD" and will increase likelihood of= success. It will also increase likelihood that *all* of the included techn= ologies are implemented (as currently written it would be possible to do on= e or 2 of the technologies and still claim compliance). And it will make it= easier to create a subsequent certification program, if there is demand fo= r one. If the MUST statements apply only to the IPv6 Transition CE Router t= his draft defines, then there is no problem with saying "MUST". The require= ments have no scope outside this draft. =20 ---------- =20 If taking this approach, requirements for DS-Lite would need to be incl= uded. Those can be copied from RFC 7084. =20 ---------- =20 RFC 7084 can still be a basis for this new thing (MUST comply with RFC = 7084). =20 The current requirement for RFC 7084 compliance is "The IPv6 Transition= CE router must comply with all the requirements stated in [RFC7084]."=20 I suggest staying away from "all the requirements", since the RFC 7084 = SHOULD and MAY requirements are also requirements, and I don't think it's i= ntended to mandate those. I recommend simply saying: The IPv6 Transition CE router MUST comply with [RFC7084]. =20 --------- =20 If done this way, I don't think it's necessary to make mention of 6rd i= n any way. It's omission from this draft will make it clear that it's not a= component of an IPv6 Transition CE Router. =20 =20 Barbara =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Apr 26 11:26:40 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E080C127873 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 11:26:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id wLd5YBbELJJe for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 11:26:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 856101200E5 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 11:26:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524767194; x=1525371994; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:Mime-version: Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=yEKKxMLWG4vrhD2e9QXny v/78qE9OeGHzUq3MnrTQ34=; b=nBset/FrsI3EKyGGXmsD7DfiYVodqJ+obCJ0k q764gmS3xwyvmLec11w0f+SQxp5v8JyO3V4OFxPLYwsFRla6Y6KoEk8epP2+08mZ KjwitN30hYdUFFjNvyO07rXDfQDYkoGDjYLHcDb3qPiU/RHelOLCW2VfrovjH8c7 h97cHg= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:26:34 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:26:33 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005758818.msg for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:26:33 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:5004:edf7:d517:81bb X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:26:33 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1654602c4e=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:26:31 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <6CA177D8-9A02-42B8-851A-1135C160D615@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: Usage Scenarios and End-User Network Architecture Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: Usage Scenarios and End-User Network Architecture X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 18:26:39 -0000 Hi Barbara, Lee also suggested removing part of this, and I have been able to compress = it a little bit ... but I still think it is useful. Some folks have asked for that in previous versions, and I see the need, bu= t agree that for the majority of the readers, it is not needed at the begin= ning of the document, so I'm moving them to annexes. I think the "Scope" section is not needed, as there is already equivalent t= ext in the introduction. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de "STARK, BARBARA H" Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 25 de abril de 2018, 21:00 Para: V6 Ops List Asunto: [v6ops] transition-ipv4aas: Usage Scenarios and End-User Network Ar= chitecture My next set of comments for the transition-ipv4aas draft is on the Usag= e Scenarios and End-User Network Architecture sections. =20 I admit to having a low tolerance for what I consider unnecessary intro= ductory material. If the goal is to get CE router vendors to implement the = requirements in Section 5, and make this easy for operators to use this dra= ft to request these features, then don't make readers have to go through 5 = pages of largely unnecessary introductory material to get to the really imp= ortant stuff. Also, the more introductory material that is included, the mo= re comments there will be against the introductory material (and the more t= ime gets spent in discussion of those comments -- to the detriment of discu= ssion of requirements and making it take longer to get to publication).=20 =20 The more this draft is focused on the requirements, the more likely it = is those requirements will be read and implemented, and the faster it will = be to review and publish. =20 If you really want to include the usage scenarios, I would suggest putt= ing them at the end. My preference would be not to include, at all (because= there is no need to discuss and fix what isn't there). Same for the end-us= er network architecture. =20 I would suggest replacing these two sections with a really short sectio= n maybe titled Scope. Something like: =20 Scope =20 This document specifies the requirements for an IPv6 Transition CE Rout= er. The IPv6 Transition CE Router builds upon the IPv6 CE Router defined an= d specified in [RFC7084] by including mandatory support for several transit= ion technologies. The IPv6 Transition CE Router is intended to be used in t= he same manner (same types of customers and end-user network architecture) = as the IPv6 CE Router.=20 =20 The IPv6 Transition CE Router will implement the specified transition m= echanisms and related provisioning and configuration mechanisms specified i= n this document in addition to complying with [RFC7084]. =20 Barbara =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Apr 26 12:41:02 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BC576128954 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:40:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RQshtt9hJh5D for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:40:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 0E41F126C26 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:40:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524771655; x=1525376455; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=csHxbalD 67PAM7R0RDeFpjkhUmvSNXBehAmMoqGpTLo=; b=docaLQppgi3P4/Dw2SUKHm5g H85M34HmhiS1l/MJxqnYFVRT83drZhxZ/fR3versbrTAjzhq3Uu8LSEfm/WMvODT mBeWsoZmciWx9f+E70JNLK3TW5/r5UenFC4A6o0v/RM3syBfsHMPyyaudBSerKPx QYAjuQRl2WVRXzGcvJY= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:40:55 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:40:54 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005758852.msg for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:40:53 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:5004:edf7:d517:81bb X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:40:53 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1654602c4e=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:40:52 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 19:41:00 -0000 Hi Richard, As I've moved sections 3 & 4 to the end of the document as annexes, I've ad= ded a new small section for UPnP with your text. I think this also helps to= clarify one of the issues raised by Lee. I'm working on all this changes with my co-authors, and if we are good with= them, we probably will submit the new version in a couple of days or so. Thanks! Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Richard Patterson Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 25 de abril de 2018, 11:16 Para: V6 Ops List Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Section 4 only briefly touches on UPnP, I'd like to propose that we make a recommendation around its behaviour if it is enabled. =20 UPnP MAY be enabled on the IPv6 transition CE, for stateless mechanisms that forward unsolicited inbound packets through to the CE. If UPnP is enabled, the agent MUST reject any port mapping requests for ports outside of the range(s) allocated to the IPv6 transition CE. =20 UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechanisms that do not forward unsolicited inbound packets to the CE, unless implemented in conjunction with a method to control the external port mapping, such as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970]. =20 -Richard =20 =20 On 25 April 2018 at 01:38, Fred Baker wrote: > > >> On Apr 24, 2018, at 12:13 PM, STARK, BARBARA H wrot= e: >> >> But that doesn't mean I believe the draft has exactly the right set = of features included. My understanding of "adoption" is that it is still po= ssible post-adoption to discuss whether specific features / requirements do= or don't belong. If the precise set of features and requirements must be a= greed upon prior to adoption, then I would not be in support of adoption. H= opefully we aren't setting the bar that high? > > I understand "adoption as a working group draft" to mean that the wor= king group has agreed to work on the draft. There are some working groups t= hat seem to confuse "adoption as a work group draft" with "agreement to sen= d it to the IESG"; I don't, but expect conversation in between those two ev= ents. > > That said, I'd like to believe that the draft is pretty close, and th= at changes that need to be made to it will have text offered by the people = that want them. So - keep your cards and letters coming... > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Apr 26 12:52:25 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 6DCBB126C26 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:52:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id kzpsOISF79k8 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x229.google.com (mail-wm0-x229.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::229]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 82F80127698 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:52:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x229.google.com with SMTP id i3so15364453wmf.3 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:52:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=45gnuETDAdvIvmbXjaMiaZIlxFBV+n7R2g5fRtCeu0k=; b=Olz5bEnOdO1Sf/W+7KQ5dSj+9hHEmkQjLVQV6FotNucU7UPvvYXbYH6b4gS4Htw28z diZJzsiaZknUKsDNwFsiscv6XrBhRuY+yk6/4aOgki/O73JRbkCwHHBYaV3ThXsK4Ka0 LbLCQ5joowlvfvb7Og00/P9b59+4lGWidyPxfUVqHv4MVz2FtmFSYrkkJqHEM0K7jA3y ucPWdTOGSgQ7/mIkU1LitiXDI6j9AkbKQRVeHSJgc+f09yoS+gj8cK3e43C5KxJa7kLE XM7soJpOSRRnFPJj6WgszQq83DI8y1yxzr/DhyPYSQgFZjGqrIwJp/xEf7/wTZrqXLu6 slcw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=45gnuETDAdvIvmbXjaMiaZIlxFBV+n7R2g5fRtCeu0k=; b=HNYlfTlxAy2hIdBa8vKGQ1mAo5KtyeslfGu4G6tLW0yhT/7/7vzRoSR8cETcXMXKc6 82d5+GQGq0c4i9vpMiewFN/pHSUGBuh5uZW/CfQ/a9NlvNkvY79RXtGL5r/cukSog8ek zLcqdoWT96Kuu/DH9P685yf+a8+8mfEqv60IcLFgHxPqUYmomqjuD8OmPNLqsU1QuRVv 8Ecw4hmv1bjtMEXoiYOJrOo5yYZA41wVt+L1RFPu/D+It20DdINWus3U44EvIdzq8zfF JuccdxYuHFJEX2YIKi5bJSRQu8Vvp/v9B6V4CR41/nH0suXY0WNzKTDGuMvGLwF1mJ8I qbPA== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tB687vGYScgIVXVQQNtFmK693+f5qWMAdU1copSn0SOROQ3s7Qc 3ZThvPUU5Fw2n0xd+JMzbMFQQKN6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AIpwx4/Pmno2eNahYwrDroTIW5JQvt2O++VjsAS/+X1mQWv9aTl02EcRwf9LtYSBZzno9h/DgQIDJA== X-Received: by 10.167.198.87 with SMTP id z23mr25373516edr.9.1524772341112; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8802:5600:1546::1054? ([2600:8802:5600:1546::1054]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a88sm12290375edf.64.2018.04.26.12.52.19 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:52:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <9E0F9A53-4A20-42E8-8AA8-804685CA7831@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D6ED25E6-E4D1-4C1D-855B-D341B76B16F2"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 12:52:18 -0700 In-Reply-To: <1d3f3c55-9a06-8354-b6cd-a25cc2771422@gmail.com> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org To: Alexandre Petrescu References: <5e02c3d9-5382-205e-f552-496da5c529bc@gmail.com> <1d3f3c55-9a06-8354-b6cd-a25cc2771422@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] When IPv6 breaks IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2018 19:52:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_D6ED25E6-E4D1-4C1D-855B-D341B76B16F2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Apr 26, 2018, at 1:42 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >=20 > Even us, at IETF, whenever we write a new hot Internet Draft we put it > on an IPv4 website first. (I guess datatracker is not reachable on = IPv6, > just guess.) AFAIK, everything at ietf.org is dual stack; when I access ietf.org, = data tracker.ietf.org, or tools.ietf.org, my browser tells me it is = doing so using IPv6 (I just tested that using = https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas = and https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas). = If you're having trouble with IPv6 access, send a note to = ietf-action@ietf.org. They will want a traceroute -6 from your location = and will compare that to a traceroute -6 from their location, to = pinpoint where the issue is. Freds-MacBook-Pro:draft fred$ ping6 datatracker.ietf.org PING6(56=3D40+8+8 bytes) 2600:8802:5600:1546::1054 --> = 2001:1900:3001:11::2c 16 bytes from 2001:1900:3001:11::2c, icmp_seq=3D0 hlim=3D56 time=3D28.271 = ms 16 bytes from 2001:1900:3001:11::2c, icmp_seq=3D1 hlim=3D56 time=3D26.735 = ms 16 bytes from 2001:1900:3001:11::2c, icmp_seq=3D2 hlim=3D56 time=3D24.013 = ms 16 bytes from 2001:1900:3001:11::2c, icmp_seq=3D3 hlim=3D56 time=3D24.815 = ms 16 bytes from 2001:1900:3001:11::2c, icmp_seq=3D4 hlim=3D56 time=3D24.410 = ms 16 bytes from 2001:1900:3001:11::2c, icmp_seq=3D5 hlim=3D56 time=3D26.602 = ms ^C --- ietf.org ping6 statistics --- 6 packets transmitted, 6 packets received, 0.0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev =3D 24.013/25.808/28.271/1.512 ms --Apple-Mail=_D6ED25E6-E4D1-4C1D-855B-D341B76B16F2 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlriLfIACgkQEhdRnd2G P+C3KA/+PSeD/mQz98zX+JRmRXSZ0GBq07YOcFXTZGYGaF7Smj5/EhibKCBfHjv5 xTTaxDZy7K65ACcTr/z0xH25qoCtQZ5dMMzR+wGtq+p509g6Aq+apTFDTeCkNPKI VN2aqhJbUxLhTj/gDzblAXPFSddIDU/7zMoKuEZtK5anQH17QHLG8uJ6spr4E5aq 5d4kifD2n0i1NWYFrbBL28u4TjeZAgdxIyCaksJC908nkSt3j9u73mUXIZqi/HZV OIYqQXe5oZ2UFE5pPlhbmEdzYd2lx9+nSlOlw1TsBEgp7iaFNrRh3k8MRJ3MBs70 x2lqgOq3ji4W/tLjpuqa04jlIfXBNOL2IlJ7h+h8eevoj5rlleYw7eadOBy7uHN9 eWCG0A6pVmgcj45Wr142btb3H8VV/mkgeRskA/Gvc5tXjwZ0DgcibVeT3gErVf7m HTCLBYjFYZdXrOdZHy7JM8TInD4Ahj5qA9WoaiU8/I8F0ynBKoXb+a+rsKeAQD2j u/kTt6KKN/sTSvotVuf3UC8uR22tC7qnD9/BP6cGqSkTFVusozBWBn7jUCmk8QWk 2aolSyOts3wWs70mJiUyrAXsEqop/8N+H23+Qv3tnszFoZHliVTOlvmBrSu+XN5f sOrux94/doOHi8/u3HIXkFwrMojWvsVEvadML0FJ8JkhAZgGmts= =Qn4a -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_D6ED25E6-E4D1-4C1D-855B-D341B76B16F2-- From nobody Thu Apr 26 20:13:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 05C3812D7F5 for ; 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Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:13:18 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 2002:a19:5c04:0:0:0:0:0 with HTTP; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 20:12:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1d3f3c55-9a06-8354-b6cd-a25cc2771422@gmail.com> References: <5e02c3d9-5382-205e-f552-496da5c529bc@gmail.com> <1d3f3c55-9a06-8354-b6cd-a25cc2771422@gmail.com> From: Jen Linkova Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 13:12:57 +1000 Message-ID: To: Alexandre Petrescu Cc: V6 Ops List Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] When IPv6 breaks IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 03:13:22 -0000 On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 6:42 PM, Alexandre Petrescu wrote: > Even us, at IETF, whenever we write a new hot Internet Draft we put it > on an IPv4 website first. Actually we we don't. > (I guess datatracker is not reachable on IPv6, > just guess.) I've just completely disabled IPv4 on my workstation and https://datatracker.ietf.org works just fine (I tested browsing the drafts and some links on WG Chair dashboard). -- SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry From nobody Thu Apr 26 22:26:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D613E12D94E for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:26:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id D9ss0YlhiQor for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orange.com (mta239.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 50EE712D94D for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 22:26:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar05.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.7]) by opfedar23.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 0428F161711; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 07:26:26 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.34]) by opfedar05.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id DD5BE60078; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 07:26:25 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM6F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::bd00:88f8:8552:3349%17]) with mapi id 14.03.0389.001; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 07:26:25 +0200 From: To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Thread-Index: AQHT3ZaN9W3nmbEia0WRPUT3njWhoKQUFDHg Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 05:26:25 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 05:26:30 -0000 SGkgSm9yZGksIA0KDQpBcyB5b3UgYXJlIG9uIGl0LCBhbmQgZ2l2ZW4gdGhlIElFVEYgcmVjb21t ZW5kYXRpb24gaW4gUkZDNjg4ODoNCg0KICAgUkVRLTk6ICBBIENHTiBNVVNUIGltcGxlbWVudCBh 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X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fDQo+IHY2b3BzIG1haWxp bmcgbGlzdA0KPiB2Nm9wc0BpZXRmLm9yZw0KPiBodHRwczovL3d3dy5pZXRmLm9yZy9tYWlsbWFu L2xpc3RpbmZvL3Y2b3BzDQo= From nobody Thu Apr 26 23:27:29 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 69D8112D95C for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 23:27:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YQ9pEjZaWv4s for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 23:27:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B513D120725 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 23:27:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524810440; x=1525415240; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=lo+Cgfop GxmBvH1hVn7V7dCCsWAU2/5ZxPeKTeP9/mc=; b=pOWiKdv7NnYtJaUQzsLqG3Gh d4y8ov2y6AA4z0rSKPqXAgpP8skhxLJP3V78ftY78Od5djLzAYYmBzH4kkTyFeEr MZGGiAFec5uT7YB9cvUo+JpLVfqmZVNBlgq7/ky2zRFlNlHkxE6cFg+dQ/58cOb9 xTW79RouFZ2lelSCroQ= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:27:20 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:27:19 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005759090.msg for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:27:19 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:9d18:f6d8:bc78:16fa X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:27:19 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=16558f0734=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:27:14 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 06:27:27 -0000 Hi Med, In the document I'm editing right now, I've it already support for RFC6887 = (464XLAT-2): 464XLAT requirements: 464XLAT-1: The CE Router MUST perform IPv4 Network Address Translation (NAT) on IPv4 traffic translated using the CLAT, unless a dedicated /64 prefix has been acquired using DHCPv6-PD [RFC3633] (IPv6 Prefix Options for DHCPv6). 464XLAT-2: The CE Router MUST support PCP [RFC6887] (Port Control Protocol), for explicit control over NAT64 mappings. 464XLAT-3: The CE Router MUST implement [RFC7050] (Discovery of the IPv6 Prefix Used for IPv6 Address Synthesis) in order to discover the PLAT-side translation IPv4 and IPv6 prefix(es)/suffix(es). The CE Router MUST follow [RFC7225] (Discovering NAT64 IPv6 Prefixes Using the PCP), in order to learn the PLAT-side translation IPv4 and IPv6 prefix(es)/suffix(es) used by an upstream PCP- controlled NAT64 device. But I now realice that it should be added as well to the DS-Lite section, a= s it was not present in RFC7084. This is what I've right now: DS-Lite requirements: DSLITE-1: The IPv6 CE router MUST support configuration of DS-Lite via the DS-Lite DHCPv6 option [RFC6334] (DHCPv6 Option for Dual-Stack Lite). The IPv6 CE router MAY use other mechanisms to configure DS-Lite parameters. Such mechanisms are outside the scope of this document. DSLITE-2: The IPv6 CE router MUST NOT perform IPv4 Network Address Translation (NAT) on IPv4 traffic encapsulated using DS- Lite. So just to make sure, you mean to add also to both, 464LAT and DS-LITE also= a MUST for RFC6970 ? We have a new section with this text suggested by Richard: 5. UPnP IGD-PCP IWF Support UPnP MAY be enabled on the CE Router for stateless mechanisms that forward unsolicited inbound packets through to the CE. If UPnP is enabled, the agent MUST reject any port mapping requests for ports outside of the range(s) allocated to the CE Router. UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechanisms that do not forward unsolicited inbound packets to the CE Router, unless implemented in conjunction with a method to control the external port mapping, such as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970] (UPnP Internet Gateway Device - Port Control Protocol Interworking Function). Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 7:26 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Hi Jordi,=20 =20 As you are on it, and given the IETF recommendation in RFC6888: =20 REQ-9: A CGN MUST implement a protocol giving subscribers explicit control over NAT mappings. That protocol SHOULD be the Port Control Protocol [RFC6887]. =20 which would apply also to the PLAT, I suggest you add an item in the 46= 4lat section to support RFC6970.=20 =20 Cheers, Med =20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PALET = MARTINEZ > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 21:41 > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 > Hi Richard, >=20 > As I've moved sections 3 & 4 to the end of the document as annexes, I= 've > added a new small section for UPnP with your text. I think this also = helps to > clarify one of the issues raised by Lee. >=20 > I'm working on all this changes with my co-authors, and if we are goo= d with > them, we probably will submit the new version in a couple of days or = so. >=20 > Thanks! >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: v6ops en nombre de Richard Patterson > > Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 25 de abril de 2018, 11:16 > Para: V6 Ops List > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 > Section 4 only briefly touches on UPnP, I'd like to propose that = we > make a recommendation around its behaviour if it is enabled. >=20 > UPnP MAY be enabled on the IPv6 transition CE, for stateless > mechanisms that forward unsolicited inbound packets through to th= e CE. > If UPnP is enabled, the agent MUST reject any port mapping reques= ts > for ports outside of the range(s) allocated to the IPv6 transitio= n CE. >=20 > UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechanisms that do not forwa= rd > unsolicited inbound packets to the CE, unless implemented in > conjunction with a method to control the external port mapping, s= uch > as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970]. >=20 > -Richard >=20 >=20 > On 25 April 2018 at 01:38, Fred Baker = wrote: > > > > > >> On Apr 24, 2018, at 12:13 PM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > >> > >> But that doesn't mean I believe the draft has exactly the righ= t set of > features included. My understanding of "adoption" is that it is still > possible post-adoption to discuss whether specific features / require= ments do > or don't belong. If the precise set of features and requirements must= be > agreed upon prior to adoption, then I would not be in support of adop= tion. > Hopefully we aren't setting the bar that high? > > > > I understand "adoption as a working group draft" to mean that t= he > working group has agreed to work on the draft. There are some working= groups > that seem to confuse "adoption as a work group draft" with "agreement= to send > it to the IESG"; I don't, but expect conversation in between those tw= o > events. > > > > That said, I'd like to believe that the draft is pretty close, = and that > changes that need to be made to it will have text offered by the peop= le that > want them. So - keep your cards and letters coming... > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use= of the > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized discl= osure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve= n if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will = be > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient = be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of = this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply = to the > original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Thu Apr 26 23:34:36 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5AE6712D965 for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 23:34:35 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.901 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.901 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id AWqF_PclZpHp for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 23:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from accordion.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [198.137.202.74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CD70712D95F for ; Thu, 26 Apr 2018 23:34:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: from h.hanazo.no (96.51-175-103.customer.lyse.net [51.175.103.96]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by accordion.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C19192D50E6; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 06:34:29 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [IPv6:::1] (localhost [IPv6:::1]) by h.hanazo.no (Postfix) with ESMTP id 862D6202EBDCE1; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:34:27 +0200 (CEST) From: Ole Troan Message-Id: <694A1FF1-CA8C-42CC-87F3-789EA71807AE@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_94606544-7BEC-4F5D-B6F9-FE5FF49CD890"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:34:26 +0200 In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> To: V6 Ops List References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 06:34:35 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_94606544-7BEC-4F5D-B6F9-FE5FF49CD890 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > As you are on it, and given the IETF recommendation in RFC6888: >=20 > REQ-9: A CGN MUST implement a protocol giving subscribers explicit > control over NAT mappings. That protocol SHOULD be the Port > Control Protocol [RFC6887]. >=20 > which would apply also to the PLAT, I suggest you add an item in the = 464lat section to support RFC6970. I think that requirement needs to be reality checked. Has any of the operators of CGNs deployed PCP? Would they allow = customers to control NAT mappings at all? Or would that just be a = different subscription plan? For the other IPv4aaS mechanisms it isn't even an option... =46rom my perspective PCP from customers to control CGNs is not going to = be deployed. I'd be happy to hear otherwise. Ole >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 >> -----Message d'origine----- >> De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PALET = MARTINEZ >> Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 21:41 >> =C3=80 : V6 Ops List >> Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >>=20 >> Hi Richard, >>=20 >> As I've moved sections 3 & 4 to the end of the document as annexes, = I've >> added a new small section for UPnP with your text. I think this also = helps to >> clarify one of the issues raised by Lee. >>=20 >> I'm working on all this changes with my co-authors, and if we are = good with >> them, we probably will submit the new version in a couple of days or = so. >>=20 >> Thanks! >>=20 >> Regards, >> Jordi >>=20 >>=20 >> =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- >> De: v6ops en nombre de Richard Patterson >> >> Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 25 de abril de 2018, 11:16 >> Para: V6 Ops List >> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >>=20 >> Section 4 only briefly touches on UPnP, I'd like to propose that = we >> make a recommendation around its behaviour if it is enabled. >>=20 >> UPnP MAY be enabled on the IPv6 transition CE, for stateless >> mechanisms that forward unsolicited inbound packets through to the = CE. >> If UPnP is enabled, the agent MUST reject any port mapping = requests >> for ports outside of the range(s) allocated to the IPv6 transition = CE. >>=20 >> UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechanisms that do not = forward >> unsolicited inbound packets to the CE, unless implemented in >> conjunction with a method to control the external port mapping, = such >> as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970]. >>=20 >> -Richard >>=20 >>=20 >> On 25 April 2018 at 01:38, Fred Baker = wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Apr 24, 2018, at 12:13 PM, STARK, BARBARA H = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> But that doesn't mean I believe the draft has exactly the right set = of >> features included. My understanding of "adoption" is that it is still >> possible post-adoption to discuss whether specific features / = requirements do >> or don't belong. If the precise set of features and requirements must = be >> agreed upon prior to adoption, then I would not be in support of = adoption. >> Hopefully we aren't setting the bar that high? >>>=20 >>> I understand "adoption as a working group draft" to mean that the >> working group has agreed to work on the draft. There are some working = groups >> that seem to confuse "adoption as a work group draft" with "agreement = to send >> it to the IESG"; I don't, but expect conversation in between those = two >> events. >>>=20 >>> That said, I'd like to believe that the draft is pretty close, and = that >> changes that need to be made to it will have text offered by the = people that >> want them. So - keep your cards and letters coming... >>>=20 >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> ********************************************** >> IPv4 is over >> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >> http://www.consulintel.es >> The IPv6 Company >>=20 >> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or >> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use = of the >> individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized = disclosure, >> copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, = even if >> partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will = be >> considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient = be aware >> that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of = this >> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly >> prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply = to the >> original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >>=20 >>=20 >>=20 >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --Apple-Mail=_94606544-7BEC-4F5D-B6F9-FE5FF49CD890 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEIHjMMkzxtT+/bDNdvtpYqJhC33YFAlrixHIACgkQvtpYqJhC 33ZqTRAAjr+Y8cipZe8C7++ME4XYp8RyF7l94qN3BvXOWP06/g89QCjbs/tTd6vg 9wxPSpPrfdxuWSOSdGsrZo58NXWWMe+lxvZ4LxXfr6c/LNWjzZ8ubQ8zL2PckeUM +o0w3C6R6B7NLR3lcOCAwGUHwmN9KWyiU7U4Fi59k/clF+ehuf6x3IUULw8N+jem 9gUUCOhqYn8EcqtdX11E0LyslhcC4/KmEiL9AvZLKbls4N7Z6DgLpPl6N16Pi0K6 dwvi75tlj3xO2xSi6GiKpy1+QZINqvR+R5K+oJJ+iap38yn26056K/1uotFpE330 v6xaZ5+q94/hTGXk3S1DqRKFxnIPdCKpupc8024WDRYwhn79z1hIM+S/gmN2NdDH qPTkmklpToN0WVgttGdmeuz8F512LXads8q50kMS36GSYxpGOucqTt9s7TSH+lFq CwSW3r35Y0KHLse6AKxLj0gEwNocwpH1sLJbk5oVexze6c0WM+mAOz8S07cEUamn l75WKpt5WIW37L2pBMECzQDKbqjZgqNPrt7P0nhnu4XaQwncaJeJzv5czCl/kptw +gDim4Eo42Re7A2hrspNkRnNX43YbplED+rxUk3PbbeDkxN3NnXA91BZ/cjbTsc9 vlKw81I4HDyLSQKNuMGowKsXoO2m+W3GXZSGEjjw7Zw1xQiJG2U= =mSke -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_94606544-7BEC-4F5D-B6F9-FE5FF49CD890-- From nobody Fri Apr 27 00:45:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1589D120725 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 00:45:19 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id p9cJepxKD61F for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 00:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orange.com (mta136.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.70.36]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1CDCF120454 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 00:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.65]) by opfednr24.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 7A84640EFC; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 09:45:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.3]) by opfednr01.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 5D3691A007C; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 09:45:14 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM5D.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::9898:741c:bc1d:258d%19]) with mapi id 14.03.0389.001; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 09:45:14 +0200 From: To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Thread-Index: AQHT3fDamL+R87DMhEyZe4kDD5wIY6QUOSNw Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 07:45:13 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12819@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 07:45:19 -0000 UmUtLA0KDQpQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIGlubGluZS4gDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCk1lZA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tTWVz c2FnZSBkJ29yaWdpbmUtLS0tLQ0KPiBEZcKgOiB2Nm9wcyBbbWFpbHRvOnY2b3BzLWJvdW5jZXNA aWV0Zi5vcmddIERlIGxhIHBhcnQgZGUgSk9SREkgUEFMRVQgTUFSVElORVoNCj4gRW52b3nDqcKg OiB2ZW5kcmVkaSAyNyBhdnJpbCAyMDE4IDA4OjI3DQo+IMOAwqA6IFY2IE9wcyBMaXN0DQo+IE9i 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IHlvdSBtdXN0IHJlcGx5IHRvIHRoZQ0KPiBvcmlnaW5hbCBzZW5kZXIgdG8gaW5mb3JtIGFib3V0 IHRoaXMgY29tbXVuaWNhdGlvbiBhbmQgZGVsZXRlIGl0Lg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiB2Nm9wcyBtYWlsaW5n IGxpc3QNCj4gdjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4gaHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9s aXN0aW5mby92Nm9wcw0K From nobody Fri Apr 27 00:54:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4AEC0120454 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 00:54:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 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draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Thread-Index: AQHT3fHOq4yeXEJ350Slsi5OAu8UvqQUO5Bg Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 07:54:12 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12849@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <694A1FF1-CA8C-42CC-87F3-789EA71807AE@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <694A1FF1-CA8C-42CC-87F3-789EA71807AE@employees.org> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list 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Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:27:21 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <5D13B4F4-23B6-41A0-99B1-5EDDD4C72E91@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12819@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12819@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:27:31 -0000 The difference is in RFC7084 is a SHOULD for RFC6887, while here I'm sugges= ting a MUST when DS-LITE or 464XLAT are implemented. Asking a MUST for RFC6970, and not having a MUST in RFC6887 seems weird ... Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 9:45 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Re-, =20 Please see inline.=20 =20 Cheers, Med =20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PALET = MARTINEZ > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 08:27 > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 > Hi Med, >=20 > In the document I'm editing right now, I've it already support for RF= C6887 > (464XLAT-2): =20 [Med] You don't need to add an item for 6887 since this is already cove= red in 7084: =20 W-6: The WAN interface of the CE router SHOULD support a Port Control Protocol (PCP) client as specified in [RFC6887] for us= e by applications on the CE router. The PCP client SHOULD follo= w the procedure specified in Section 8.1 of [RFC6887] to discove= r its PCP server. This document takes no position on whether such functionality is enabled by default or mechanisms by whic= h users would configure the functionality. Handling PCP request= s from PCP clients in the LAN side of the CE router is out of scope. =20 My comment is about the IWF which is needed to allow an UPnP Control Po= int to interact with a PCP server. =20 >=20 > 464XLAT requirements: >=20 > 464XLAT-1: The CE Router MUST perform IPv4 Network Address > Translation (NAT) on IPv4 traffic translated using the > CLAT, unless a dedicated /64 prefix has been acquired > using DHCPv6-PD [RFC3633] (IPv6 Prefix Options for > DHCPv6). >=20 > 464XLAT-2: The CE Router MUST support PCP [RFC6887] (Port Control > Protocol), for explicit control over NAT64 mappings. =20 [Med] This one should be removed since it overlaps with W-6 in 7084. =20 >=20 > 464XLAT-3: The CE Router MUST implement [RFC7050] (Discovery of t= he > IPv6 Prefix Used for IPv6 Address Synthesis) in order = to > discover the PLAT-side translation IPv4 and IPv6 > prefix(es)/suffix(es). The CE Router MUST follow > [RFC7225] (Discovering NAT64 IPv6 Prefixes Using the > PCP), in order to learn the PLAT-side translation IPv4 > and IPv6 prefix(es)/suffix(es) used by an upstream PCP= - > controlled NAT64 device. >=20 >=20 > But I now realice that it should be added as well to the DS-Lite sect= ion, as > it was not present in RFC7084. This is what I've right now: >=20 > DS-Lite requirements: >=20 > DSLITE-1: The IPv6 CE router MUST support configuration of DS-Lit= e > via the DS-Lite DHCPv6 option [RFC6334] (DHCPv6 Option = for > Dual-Stack Lite). The IPv6 CE router MAY use other > mechanisms to configure DS-Lite parameters. Such > mechanisms are outside the scope of this document. >=20 > DSLITE-2: The IPv6 CE router MUST NOT perform IPv4 Network Addres= s > Translation (NAT) on IPv4 traffic encapsulated using DS= - > Lite. >=20 >=20 > So just to make sure, you mean to add also to both, 464LAT and DS-LIT= E also a > MUST for RFC6970 ? =20 [Med] Yes, I'd like to add an item for the IWF, not the PCP Client func= tionality. =20 =20 >=20 > We have a new section with this text suggested by Richard: >=20 > 5. UPnP IGD-PCP IWF Support >=20 > UPnP MAY be enabled on the CE Router for stateless mechanisms that > forward unsolicited inbound packets through to the CE. If UPnP is > enabled, the agent MUST reject any port mapping requests for ports > outside of the range(s) allocated to the CE Router. >=20 > UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechanisms that do not forwar= d > unsolicited inbound packets to the CE Router, unless implemented i= n > conjunction with a method to control the external port mapping, su= ch > as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970] (UPnP Internet Gateway Device - Port Cont= rol > Protocol Interworking Function). >=20 =20 [Med] this text does not recommend implementing the IWF.=20 =20 >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 7:26 > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 > Hi Jordi, >=20 > As you are on it, and given the IETF recommendation in RFC6888: >=20 > REQ-9: A CGN MUST implement a protocol giving subscribers exp= licit > control over NAT mappings. That protocol SHOULD be the Por= t > Control Protocol [RFC6887]. >=20 > which would apply also to the PLAT, I suggest you add an item in = the > 464lat section to support RFC6970. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI = PALET > MARTINEZ > > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 21:41 > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discus= sion > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > As I've moved sections 3 & 4 to the end of the document as anne= xes, > I've > > added a new small section for UPnP with your text. I think this= also > helps to > > clarify one of the issues raised by Lee. > > > > I'm working on all this changes with my co-authors, and if we a= re good > with > > them, we probably will submit the new version in a couple of da= ys or > so. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > De: v6ops en nombre de Richard Patters= on > > > > Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 25 de abril de 2018, 11:16 > > Para: V6 Ops List > > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discus= sion > > > > Section 4 only briefly touches on UPnP, I'd like to propose= that we > > make a recommendation around its behaviour if it is enabled= . > > > > UPnP MAY be enabled on the IPv6 transition CE, for stateles= s > > mechanisms that forward unsolicited inbound packets through= to the > CE. > > If UPnP is enabled, the agent MUST reject any port mapping = requests > > for ports outside of the range(s) allocated to the IPv6 tra= nsition > CE. > > > > UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechanisms that do not= forward > > unsolicited inbound packets to the CE, unless implemented i= n > > conjunction with a method to control the external port mapp= ing, > such > > as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970]. > > > > -Richard > > > > > > On 25 April 2018 at 01:38, Fred Baker > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> On Apr 24, 2018, at 12:13 PM, STARK, BARBARA H > wrote: > > >> > > >> But that doesn't mean I believe the draft has exactly th= e right > set of > > features included. My understanding of "adoption" is that it is= still > > possible post-adoption to discuss whether specific features / > requirements do > > or don't belong. If the precise set of features and requirement= s must > be > > agreed upon prior to adoption, then I would not be in support o= f > adoption. > > Hopefully we aren't setting the bar that high? > > > > > > I understand "adoption as a working group draft" to mean = that the > > working group has agreed to work on the draft. There are some w= orking > groups > > that seem to confuse "adoption as a work group draft" with "agr= eement > to send > > it to the IESG"; I don't, but expect conversation in between th= ose two > > events. > > > > > > That said, I'd like to believe that the draft is pretty c= lose, > and that > > changes that need to be made to it will have text offered by th= e people > that > > want them. So - keep your cards and letters coming... > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > v6ops mailing list > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.consulintel.es > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be privi= leged or > > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusi= ve use > of the > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this informatio= n, even > if > > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and= will be > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended reci= pient be > aware > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the conten= ts of > this > > information, even if partially, including attached files, is st= rictly > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must = reply to > the > > original sender to inform about this communication and delete i= t. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use= of the > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized discl= osure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve= n if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will = be > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient = be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of = this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply = to the > original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Fri Apr 27 01:31:56 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7564D12D87B for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 01:31:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id oTpsTJ0ax_CU for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 01:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90209120454 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 01:31:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524817911; x=1525422711; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=WJpTk82s YVLdef5A5hOB+Ybd78caehYFTIs43AUeivw=; b=DyFFq0XOwkoMYV6OnYgfSGol UlOVwj8du3BdsWsuPHheuh7FB2KqBUWrT20SWIFHRDw16HQs8sorJtnO1YIy/hTA HMFOpDsfimpD9eh2U9xt3ER04ngH29LjW9R9AfAaZX8GVuw3N/GG1UO03P4a9cqW 4V9oOKADgmpWxMjYZwI= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:31:51 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:31:50 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005759151.msg for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:31:49 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:1913:d955:2395:12d X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:31:49 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=16558f0734=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:31:48 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <97D94545-B06B-46D7-8874-C7C2BE141745@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12819@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6EFCF64D-3D6E-4A05-BA29-EB18C13FF7B9@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: <6EFCF64D-3D6E-4A05-BA29-EB18C13FF7B9@consulintel.es> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:31:55 -0000 Responding to myself ... The alternative maybe to not say anything about RF= C6887, so the SHOULD in RFC7084 is in effect and add a SHOULD for RFC6970. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 10:27 Para: V6 Ops List Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion The difference is in RFC7084 is a SHOULD for RFC6887, while here I'm su= ggesting a MUST when DS-LITE or 464XLAT are implemented. =20 Asking a MUST for RFC6970, and not having a MUST in RFC6887 seems weird= ... =20 Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 9:45 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion =20 Re-, =20 Please see inline.=20 =20 Cheers, Med =20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PA= LET MARTINEZ > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 08:27 > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussi= on >=20 > Hi Med, >=20 > In the document I'm editing right now, I've it already support fo= r RFC6887 > (464XLAT-2): =20 [Med] You don't need to add an item for 6887 since this is already = covered in 7084: =20 W-6: The WAN interface of the CE router SHOULD support a Port Control Protocol (PCP) client as specified in [RFC6887] fo= r use by applications on the CE router. The PCP client SHOULD f= ollow the procedure specified in Section 8.1 of [RFC6887] to dis= cover its PCP server. This document takes no position on whethe= r such functionality is enabled by default or mechanisms by = which users would configure the functionality. Handling PCP req= uests from PCP clients in the LAN side of the CE router is out o= f scope. =20 My comment is about the IWF which is needed to allow an UPnP Contro= l Point to interact with a PCP server. =20 >=20 > 464XLAT requirements: >=20 > 464XLAT-1: The CE Router MUST perform IPv4 Network Address > Translation (NAT) on IPv4 traffic translated using= the > CLAT, unless a dedicated /64 prefix has been acqui= red > using DHCPv6-PD [RFC3633] (IPv6 Prefix Options for > DHCPv6). >=20 > 464XLAT-2: The CE Router MUST support PCP [RFC6887] (Port Con= trol > Protocol), for explicit control over NAT64 mapping= s. =20 [Med] This one should be removed since it overlaps with W-6 in 7084= . =20 >=20 > 464XLAT-3: The CE Router MUST implement [RFC7050] (Discovery = of the > IPv6 Prefix Used for IPv6 Address Synthesis) in or= der to > discover the PLAT-side translation IPv4 and IPv6 > prefix(es)/suffix(es). The CE Router MUST follow > [RFC7225] (Discovering NAT64 IPv6 Prefixes Using t= he > PCP), in order to learn the PLAT-side translation = IPv4 > and IPv6 prefix(es)/suffix(es) used by an upstream= PCP- > controlled NAT64 device. >=20 >=20 > But I now realice that it should be added as well to the DS-Lite = section, as > it was not present in RFC7084. This is what I've right now: >=20 > DS-Lite requirements: >=20 > DSLITE-1: The IPv6 CE router MUST support configuration of DS= -Lite > via the DS-Lite DHCPv6 option [RFC6334] (DHCPv6 Opt= ion for > Dual-Stack Lite). The IPv6 CE router MAY use other > mechanisms to configure DS-Lite parameters. Such > mechanisms are outside the scope of this document. >=20 > DSLITE-2: The IPv6 CE router MUST NOT perform IPv4 Network Ad= dress > Translation (NAT) on IPv4 traffic encapsulated usin= g DS- > Lite. >=20 >=20 > So just to make sure, you mean to add also to both, 464LAT and DS= -LITE also a > MUST for RFC6970 ? =20 [Med] Yes, I'd like to add an item for the IWF, not the PCP Client = functionality. =20 =20 >=20 > We have a new section with this text suggested by Richard: >=20 > 5. UPnP IGD-PCP IWF Support >=20 > UPnP MAY be enabled on the CE Router for stateless mechanisms = that > forward unsolicited inbound packets through to the CE. If UPn= P is > enabled, the agent MUST reject any port mapping requests for p= orts > outside of the range(s) allocated to the CE Router. >=20 > UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechanisms that do not fo= rward > unsolicited inbound packets to the CE Router, unless implement= ed in > conjunction with a method to control the external port mapping= , such > as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970] (UPnP Internet Gateway Device - Port = Control > Protocol Interworking Function). >=20 =20 [Med] this text does not recommend implementing the IWF.=20 =20 >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 7:26 > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops L= ist > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussi= on >=20 > Hi Jordi, >=20 > As you are on it, and given the IETF recommendation in RFC688= 8: >=20 > REQ-9: A CGN MUST implement a protocol giving subscribers= explicit > control over NAT mappings. That protocol SHOULD be the= Port > Control Protocol [RFC6887]. >=20 > which would apply also to the PLAT, I suggest you add an item= in the > 464lat section to support RFC6970. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JO= RDI PALET > MARTINEZ > > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 21:41 > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas di= scussion > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > As I've moved sections 3 & 4 to the end of the document as = annexes, > I've > > added a new small section for UPnP with your text. I think = this also > helps to > > clarify one of the issues raised by Lee. > > > > I'm working on all this changes with my co-authors, and if = we are good > with > > them, we probably will submit the new version in a couple o= f days or > so. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > De: v6ops en nombre de Richard Pat= terson > > > > Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 25 de abril de 2018, 11:16 > > Para: V6 Ops List > > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas di= scussion > > > > Section 4 only briefly touches on UPnP, I'd like to pro= pose that we > > make a recommendation around its behaviour if it is ena= bled. > > > > UPnP MAY be enabled on the IPv6 transition CE, for stat= eless > > mechanisms that forward unsolicited inbound packets thr= ough to the > CE. > > If UPnP is enabled, the agent MUST reject any port mapp= ing requests > > for ports outside of the range(s) allocated to the IPv6= transition > CE. > > > > UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechanisms that do= not forward > > unsolicited inbound packets to the CE, unless implement= ed in > > conjunction with a method to control the external port = mapping, > such > > as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970]. > > > > -Richard > > > > > > On 25 April 2018 at 01:38, Fred Baker > wrote: > > > > > > > > >> On Apr 24, 2018, at 12:13 PM, STARK, BARBARA H > wrote: > > >> > > >> But that doesn't mean I believe the draft has exactl= y the right > set of > > features included. My understanding of "adoption" is that i= t is still > > possible post-adoption to discuss whether specific features= / > requirements do > > or don't belong. If the precise set of features and require= ments must > be > > agreed upon prior to adoption, then I would not be in suppo= rt of > adoption. > > Hopefully we aren't setting the bar that high? > > > > > > I understand "adoption as a working group draft" to m= ean that the > > working group has agreed to work on the draft. There are so= me working > groups > > that seem to confuse "adoption as a work group draft" with = "agreement > to send > > it to the IESG"; I don't, but expect conversation in betwee= n those two > > events. > > > > > > That said, I'd like to believe that the draft is pret= ty close, > and that > > changes that need to be made to it will have text offered b= y the people > that > > want them. So - keep your cards and letters coming... > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > v6ops mailing list > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.consulintel.es > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be p= rivileged or > > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exc= lusive use > of the > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty author= ized > disclosure, > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this inform= ation, even > if > > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited= and will be > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended = recipient be > aware > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the co= ntents of > this > > information, even if partially, including attached files, i= s strictly > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you m= ust reply to > the > > original sender to inform about this communication and dele= te it. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privile= ged or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive= use of the > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized d= isclosure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information,= even if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and w= ill be > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipi= ent be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents= of this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is stri= ctly > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must re= ply to the > original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Fri Apr 27 01:37:13 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D7518120454 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 01:37:11 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, RCVD_IN_MSPIKE_H2=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 6_abFXO8onDd for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 01:37:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orange.com (mta241.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.66.41]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9C3D12704A for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 01:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (unknown [xx.xx.xx.6]) by opfedar22.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 6ED99605D3; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:37:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.34]) by opfedar04.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id 4FC2240087; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:37:07 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM6F.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::bd00:88f8:8552:3349%17]) with mapi id 14.03.0389.001; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:37:07 +0200 From: To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Thread-Index: AQHT3gJCZyv/19dC/E6tjUIN/8EsrqQUSZvA Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:37:06 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF128D1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12819@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6EFCF64D-3D6E-4A05-BA29-EB18C13FF7B9@consulintel.es> <97D94545-B06B-46D7-8874-C7C2BE141745@consulintel.es> In-Reply-To: <97D94545-B06B-46D7-8874-C7C2BE141745@consulintel.es> Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:37:12 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localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E61BF12D95C for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 01:41:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id qkJK0Ix8baIu for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 01:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (cirse-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.148]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 51DBB12704A for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 01:41:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by cirse-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3R8fH7g042574; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:41:17 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 2DDB4200E2E; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:41:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 1E5BC200CC3; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:41:17 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3R8fGel010454; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:41:16 +0200 To: Fred Baker Cc: v6ops@ietf.org References: <5e02c3d9-5382-205e-f552-496da5c529bc@gmail.com> <1d3f3c55-9a06-8354-b6cd-a25cc2771422@gmail.com> <8580_1524772349_5AE22DFD_8580_14133_1_9E0F9A53-4A20-42E8-8AA8-804685CA7831@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <328cc010-64a7-e9ec-daf5-9918d774e6b6@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:41:16 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <8580_1524772349_5AE22DFD_8580_14133_1_9E0F9A53-4A20-42E8-8AA8-804685CA7831@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] When IPv6 breaks IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:41:22 -0000 Le 26/04/2018 à 21:52, Fred Baker a écrit : > [SECURITE : MISE EN QUARANTAINE DES PIECES JOINTES POTENTIELLEMENT > DANGEREUSES] > > Ce message contient des pieces jointes potentiellement dangereuses > car susceptibles de contenir des virus. Pour lutter contre > l'expansion de ce type d'attaque, les documents [null] ont ete > retires du message original ci-dessous. Pour les documents Office, le > CEA recommande l'usage exclusif des formats plus recents exempts de > macros comme DOCX, XLSX, PPTX, merci de le signaler a votre > expediteur. > > Pour de plus amples informations ou pour connaitre les mecanismes de > mise en quarantaine, vous pouvez vous rapprocher de votre service > informatique ou consulter le site USCIpedia - rubrique PureMessage. > > ----------------MESSAGE ORGINAL ci-dessous------------------ > > > >> On Apr 26, 2018, at 1:42 AM, Alexandre Petrescu >> wrote: >> >> Even us, at IETF, whenever we write a new hot Internet Draft we put >> it on an IPv4 website first. (I guess datatracker is not reachable >> on IPv6, just guess.) > > AFAIK, everything at ietf.org is dual stack; when I access ietf.org, > data tracker.ietf.org, or tools.ietf.org, my browser tells me it is > doing so using IPv6 This is great, and I am happy it is that way. I will check it myself soon form my lab (because Corporate network is not IPv6). I meant the next step: v6ops Internet Draft available _only_ on IPv6 http. Alex (I just tested that using > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas > and > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas). If > you're having trouble with IPv6 access, send a note to > ietf-action@ietf.org. They will want a traceroute -6 from your > location and will compare that to a traceroute -6 from their > location, to pinpoint where the issue is. > > Freds-MacBook-Pro:draft fred$ ping6 datatracker.ietf.org > PING6(56=40+8+8 bytes) 2600:8802:5600:1546::1054 --> > 2001:1900:3001:11::2c 16 bytes from 2001:1900:3001:11::2c, icmp_seq=0 > hlim=56 time=28.271 ms 16 bytes from 2001:1900:3001:11::2c, > icmp_seq=1 hlim=56 time=26.735 ms 16 bytes from > 2001:1900:3001:11::2c, icmp_seq=2 hlim=56 time=24.013 ms 16 bytes > from 2001:1900:3001:11::2c, icmp_seq=3 hlim=56 time=24.815 ms 16 > bytes from 2001:1900:3001:11::2c, icmp_seq=4 hlim=56 time=24.410 ms > 16 bytes from 2001:1900:3001:11::2c, icmp_seq=5 hlim=56 time=26.602 > ms ^C --- ietf.org ping6 statistics --- 6 packets transmitted, 6 > packets received, 0.0% packet loss round-trip min/avg/max/std-dev = > 24.013/25.808/28.271/1.512 ms > From nobody Fri Apr 27 01:45:14 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 906B612D95D for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 01:45:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id P_xFoJOVy4og for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 01:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (sainfoin-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.167.192.228]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3577E12D960 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 01:45:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by sainfoin-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3R8j6QJ024152; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:45:06 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 5327E2020E0; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:45:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44E71202F4C; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:45:06 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [10.8.34.184] (is227335.intra.cea.fr [10.8.34.184]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3R8j5mW012388; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:45:05 +0200 To: Jen Linkova Cc: V6 Ops List References: <5e02c3d9-5382-205e-f552-496da5c529bc@gmail.com> <1d3f3c55-9a06-8354-b6cd-a25cc2771422@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <1bb4adf1-ce79-14b5-7075-90141c6ff29f@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:45:06 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] When IPv6 breaks IPv4 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 08:45:10 -0000 Le 27/04/2018 à 05:12, Jen Linkova a écrit : > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 6:42 PM, Alexandre Petrescu > wrote: >> Even us, at IETF, whenever we write a new hot Internet Draft we put it >> on an IPv4 website first. > Actually we we don't. > >> (I guess datatracker is not reachable on IPv6, >> just guess.) > > I've just completely disabled IPv4 on my workstation and > https://datatracker.ietf.org works just fine (I tested browsing the > drafts and some links on WG Chair dashboard). I am happy you report so. I will check it soon too. But I meant this: disable IPv4 on https of datatracker for v6ops WG Internet Drafts: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/search/?name=draft-ietf-v6ops&sort=&rfcs=on In this way we mean that we really mean it. Alex From nobody Fri Apr 27 02:04:19 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 644F5126C2F for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 02:04:17 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 5T8h7lXREWyO for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 02:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1DFA4120454 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 02:04:12 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524819851; x=1525424651; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=3qasBFq5 vsGakNtNRlhJtZBy8ZPQjV+BpD6KXjTcJmU=; b=bHzf82Mo6EKyz1tKAPSlPP4h DlydJy62+ML//lqGh8uld2jBVFW4yfkcdPNUqvlthUGjgHdOa+sT2tM72wQ3BE6S 0ofeOgrT+eHIntlGx9ZdldpD9PyOAYMNT1hymg4wePBU2h933c6a7+xfJ/SCum5l ftzM4WVlYS6ifrsXvIQ= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 27 Apr 2018 11:04:11 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 27 Apr 2018 11:04:10 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005759176.msg for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 11:04:10 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:1913:d955:2395:12d X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 11:04:10 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=16558f0734=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 11:04:10 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <18D5AA86-E01A-4D0B-BDDA-8760454C870C@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12819@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6EFCF64D-3D6E-4A05-BA29-EB18C13FF7B9@consulintel.es> <97D94545-B06B-46D7-8874-C7C2BE141745@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF128D1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF128D1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 09:04:17 -0000 Done, thanks! So, I removed the SHOULD for PCP, as it is already in RFC7084, but added (D= S-LITE and 464XLAT): The CE Router SHOULD support IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970] (UPnP Internet Gateway Device - Port Control Protocol Interworking Function). Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 10:37 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Jordi,=20 =20 That is what I was suggesting.=20 =20 Cheers, Med =20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PALET = MARTINEZ > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 10:32 > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 > Responding to myself ... The alternative maybe to not say anything ab= out > RFC6887, so the SHOULD in RFC7084 is in effect and add a SHOULD for R= FC6970. >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 10:27 > Para: V6 Ops List > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 > The difference is in RFC7084 is a SHOULD for RFC6887, while here = I'm > suggesting a MUST when DS-LITE or 464XLAT are implemented. >=20 > Asking a MUST for RFC6970, and not having a MUST in RFC6887 seems= weird > ... >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 9:45 > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops L= ist > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussi= on >=20 > Re-, >=20 > Please see inline. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JO= RDI > PALET MARTINEZ > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 08:27 > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas di= scussion > > > > Hi Med, > > > > In the document I'm editing right now, I've it already supp= ort for > RFC6887 > > (464XLAT-2): >=20 > [Med] You don't need to add an item for 6887 since this is al= ready > covered in 7084: >=20 > W-6: The WAN interface of the CE router SHOULD support a = Port > Control Protocol (PCP) client as specified in [RFC68= 87] for > use > by applications on the CE router. The PCP client SH= OULD > follow > the procedure specified in Section 8.1 of [RFC6887] = to > discover > its PCP server. This document takes no position on = whether > such functionality is enabled by default or mechanis= ms by > which > users would configure the functionality. Handling P= CP > requests > from PCP clients in the LAN side of the CE router is= out of > scope. >=20 > My comment is about the IWF which is needed to allow an UPnP = Control > Point to interact with a PCP server. >=20 > > > > 464XLAT requirements: > > > > 464XLAT-1: The CE Router MUST perform IPv4 Network Addr= ess > > Translation (NAT) on IPv4 traffic translated= using > the > > CLAT, unless a dedicated /64 prefix has been > acquired > > using DHCPv6-PD [RFC3633] (IPv6 Prefix Optio= ns for > > DHCPv6). > > > > 464XLAT-2: The CE Router MUST support PCP [RFC6887] (Po= rt > Control > > Protocol), for explicit control over NAT64 m= appings. >=20 > [Med] This one should be removed since it overlaps with W-6 i= n 7084. >=20 > > > > 464XLAT-3: The CE Router MUST implement [RFC7050] (Disc= overy of > the > > IPv6 Prefix Used for IPv6 Address Synthesis)= in > order to > > discover the PLAT-side translation IPv4 and = IPv6 > > prefix(es)/suffix(es). The CE Router MUST f= ollow > > [RFC7225] (Discovering NAT64 IPv6 Prefixes U= sing the > > PCP), in order to learn the PLAT-side transl= ation > IPv4 > > and IPv6 prefix(es)/suffix(es) used by an up= stream > PCP- > > controlled NAT64 device. > > > > > > But I now realice that it should be added as well to the DS= -Lite > section, as > > it was not present in RFC7084. This is what I've right now: > > > > DS-Lite requirements: > > > > DSLITE-1: The IPv6 CE router MUST support configuration= of DS- > Lite > > via the DS-Lite DHCPv6 option [RFC6334] (DHCP= v6 > Option for > > Dual-Stack Lite). The IPv6 CE router MAY use= other > > mechanisms to configure DS-Lite parameters. = Such > > mechanisms are outside the scope of this docu= ment. > > > > DSLITE-2: The IPv6 CE router MUST NOT perform IPv4 Netw= ork > Address > > Translation (NAT) on IPv4 traffic encapsulate= d using > DS- > > Lite. > > > > > > So just to make sure, you mean to add also to both, 464LAT = and DS- > LITE also a > > MUST for RFC6970 ? >=20 > [Med] Yes, I'd like to add an item for the IWF, not the PCP C= lient > functionality. >=20 > > > > We have a new section with this text suggested by Richard: > > > > 5. UPnP IGD-PCP IWF Support > > > > UPnP MAY be enabled on the CE Router for stateless mecha= nisms > that > > forward unsolicited inbound packets through to the CE. = If UPnP > is > > enabled, the agent MUST reject any port mapping requests= for > ports > > outside of the range(s) allocated to the CE Router. > > > > UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechanisms that do = not > forward > > unsolicited inbound packets to the CE Router, unless imp= lemented > in > > conjunction with a method to control the external port m= apping, > such > > as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970] (UPnP Internet Gateway Device -= Port > Control > > Protocol Interworking Function). > > >=20 > [Med] this text does not recommend implementing the IWF. >=20 > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > De: > > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 7:26 > > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6= Ops > List > > > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas di= scussion > > > > Hi Jordi, > > > > As you are on it, and given the IETF recommendation in = RFC6888: > > > > REQ-9: A CGN MUST implement a protocol giving subsc= ribers > explicit > > control over NAT mappings. That protocol SHOULD = be the > Port > > Control Protocol [RFC6887]. > > > > which would apply also to the PLAT, I suggest you add a= n item > in the > > 464lat section to support RFC6970. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part= de > JORDI PALET > > MARTINEZ > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 21:41 > > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4= aas > discussion > > > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > > > As I've moved sections 3 & 4 to the end of the docume= nt as > annexes, > > I've > > > added a new small section for UPnP with your text. I = think > this also > > helps to > > > clarify one of the issues raised by Lee. > > > > > > I'm working on all this changes with my co-authors, a= nd if we > are good > > with > > > them, we probably will submit the new version in a co= uple of > days or > > so. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Regards, > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > > De: v6ops en nombre de Richa= rd > Patterson > > > > > > Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 25 de abril de 2018, 11:16 > > > Para: V6 Ops List > > > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4= aas > discussion > > > > > > Section 4 only briefly touches on UPnP, I'd like = to > propose that we > > > make a recommendation around its behaviour if it = is > enabled. > > > > > > UPnP MAY be enabled on the IPv6 transition CE, fo= r > stateless > > > mechanisms that forward unsolicited inbound packe= ts > through to the > > CE. > > > If UPnP is enabled, the agent MUST reject any por= t > mapping requests > > > for ports outside of the range(s) allocated to th= e IPv6 > transition > > CE. > > > > > > UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechanisms t= hat do > not forward > > > unsolicited inbound packets to the CE, unless imp= lemented > in > > > conjunction with a method to control the external= port > mapping, > > such > > > as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970]. > > > > > > -Richard > > > > > > > > > On 25 April 2018 at 01:38, Fred Baker > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Apr 24, 2018, at 12:13 PM, STARK, BARBARA H > > > wrote: > > > >> > > > >> But that doesn't mean I believe the draft has = exactly > the right > > set of > > > features included. My understanding of "adoption" is = that it > is still > > > possible post-adoption to discuss whether specific fe= atures / > > requirements do > > > or don't belong. If the precise set of features and > requirements must > > be > > > agreed upon prior to adoption, then I would not be in= support > of > > adoption. > > > Hopefully we aren't setting the bar that high? > > > > > > > > I understand "adoption as a working group draft= " to > mean that the > > > working group has agreed to work on the draft. There = are some > working > > groups > > > that seem to confuse "adoption as a work group draft"= with > "agreement > > to send > > > it to the IESG"; I don't, but expect conversation in = between > those two > > > events. > > > > > > > > That said, I'd like to believe that the draft i= s pretty > close, > > and that > > > changes that need to be made to it will have text off= ered by > the people > > that > > > want them. So - keep your cards and letters coming... > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > v6ops mailing list > > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > v6ops mailing list > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > > IPv4 is over > > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > > http://www.consulintel.es > > > The IPv6 Company > > > > > > This electronic message contains information which ma= y be > privileged or > > > confidential. The information is intended to be for t= he > exclusive use > > of the > > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty > authorized > > disclosure, > > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, even > > if > > > partially, including attached files, is strictly proh= ibited > and will be > > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the int= ended > recipient be > > aware > > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of = the > contents of > > this > > > information, even if partially, including attached fi= les, is > strictly > > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so= you > must reply to > > the > > > original sender to inform about this communication an= d delete > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > v6ops mailing list > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.consulintel.es > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be > privileged or > > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exc= lusive > use of the > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty author= ized > disclosure, > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this inform= ation, > even if > > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited= and > will be > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended > recipient be aware > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the co= ntents > of this > > information, even if partially, including attached files, i= s > strictly > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you m= ust > reply to the > > original sender to inform about this communication and dele= te it. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use= of the > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized discl= osure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve= n if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will = be > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient = be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of = this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply = to the > original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. 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jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 12:25:55 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12819@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6EFCF64D-3D6E-4A05-BA29-EB18C13FF7B9@consulintel.es> <97D94545-B06B-46D7-8874-C7C2BE141745@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF128D1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <18D5AA86-E01A-4D0B-BDDA-8760454C870C@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12930@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12930@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 10:26:09 -0000 Agree, it makes sense. I don't know if other operators are using also the same approach when using= NAT64. May be nobody considered, but I think it will make sense to have th= e same text as well? Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 11:21 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Re-, =20 Thank you.=20 =20 For DS-Lite, you may mention the following : - when no PCP server is configured, the CPE assumes by default that the= AFTR is the PCP server.=20 - a plain IPv6 mode is used to send PCP requests to the server. =20 This is how PCP is deployed today for DS-lite. It is worth to have it d= ocumented.=20 =20 Cheers, Med =20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PALET = MARTINEZ > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 11:04 > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 > Done, thanks! >=20 > So, I removed the SHOULD for PCP, as it is already in RFC7084, but ad= ded (DS- > LITE and 464XLAT): >=20 > The CE Router SHOULD support IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970] (UPnP > Internet Gateway Device - Port Control Protocol > Interworking Function). >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 10:37 > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 > Jordi, >=20 > That is what I was suggesting. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI = PALET > MARTINEZ > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 10:32 > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discus= sion > > > > Responding to myself ... The alternative maybe to not say anyth= ing > about > > RFC6887, so the SHOULD in RFC7084 is in effect and add a SHOULD= for > RFC6970. > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > De: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ > > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 10:27 > > Para: V6 Ops List > > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discus= sion > > > > The difference is in RFC7084 is a SHOULD for RFC6887, while= here > I'm > > suggesting a MUST when DS-LITE or 464XLAT are implemented. > > > > Asking a MUST for RFC6970, and not having a MUST in RFC6887= seems > weird > > ... > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > De: > > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 9:45 > > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6= Ops > List > > > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas di= scussion > > > > Re-, > > > > Please see inline. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part= de > JORDI > > PALET MARTINEZ > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 08:27 > > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4= aas > discussion > > > > > > Hi Med, > > > > > > In the document I'm editing right now, I've it alread= y > support for > > RFC6887 > > > (464XLAT-2): > > > > [Med] You don't need to add an item for 6887 since this= is > already > > covered in 7084: > > > > W-6: The WAN interface of the CE router SHOULD supp= ort a > Port > > Control Protocol (PCP) client as specified in > [RFC6887] for > > use > > by applications on the CE router. The PCP cli= ent > SHOULD > > follow > > the procedure specified in Section 8.1 of [RFC= 6887] to > > discover > > its PCP server. This document takes no positi= on on > whether > > such functionality is enabled by default or me= chanisms > by > > which > > users would configure the functionality. Hand= ling PCP > > requests > > from PCP clients in the LAN side of the CE rou= ter is > out of > > scope. > > > > My comment is about the IWF which is needed to allow an= UPnP > Control > > Point to interact with a PCP server. > > > > > > > > 464XLAT requirements: > > > > > > 464XLAT-1: The CE Router MUST perform IPv4 Networ= k > Address > > > Translation (NAT) on IPv4 traffic tran= slated > using > > the > > > CLAT, unless a dedicated /64 prefix ha= s been > > acquired > > > using DHCPv6-PD [RFC3633] (IPv6 Prefix= Options > for > > > DHCPv6). > > > > > > 464XLAT-2: The CE Router MUST support PCP [RFC688= 7] (Port > > Control > > > Protocol), for explicit control over N= AT64 > mappings. > > > > [Med] This one should be removed since it overlaps with= W-6 in > 7084. > > > > > > > > 464XLAT-3: The CE Router MUST implement [RFC7050] > (Discovery of > > the > > > IPv6 Prefix Used for IPv6 Address Synt= hesis) > in > > order to > > > discover the PLAT-side translation IPv= 4 and > IPv6 > > > prefix(es)/suffix(es). The CE Router = MUST > follow > > > [RFC7225] (Discovering NAT64 IPv6 Pref= ixes > Using the > > > PCP), in order to learn the PLAT-side > translation > > IPv4 > > > and IPv6 prefix(es)/suffix(es) used by= an > upstream > > PCP- > > > controlled NAT64 device. > > > > > > > > > But I now realice that it should be added as well to = the DS- > Lite > > section, as > > > it was not present in RFC7084. This is what I've righ= t now: > > > > > > DS-Lite requirements: > > > > > > DSLITE-1: The IPv6 CE router MUST support configu= ration > of DS- > > Lite > > > via the DS-Lite DHCPv6 option [RFC6334]= (DHCPv6 > > Option for > > > Dual-Stack Lite). The IPv6 CE router M= AY use > other > > > mechanisms to configure DS-Lite paramet= ers. > Such > > > mechanisms are outside the scope of thi= s > document. > > > > > > DSLITE-2: The IPv6 CE router MUST NOT perform IPv= 4 > Network > > Address > > > Translation (NAT) on IPv4 traffic encap= sulated > using > > DS- > > > Lite. > > > > > > > > > So just to make sure, you mean to add also to both, 4= 64LAT > and DS- > > LITE also a > > > MUST for RFC6970 ? > > > > [Med] Yes, I'd like to add an item for the IWF, not the= PCP > Client > > functionality. > > > > > > > > We have a new section with this text suggested by Ric= hard: > > > > > > 5. UPnP IGD-PCP IWF Support > > > > > > UPnP MAY be enabled on the CE Router for stateless > mechanisms > > that > > > forward unsolicited inbound packets through to the= CE. If > UPnP > > is > > > enabled, the agent MUST reject any port mapping re= quests > for > > ports > > > outside of the range(s) allocated to the CE Router= . > > > > > > UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechanisms th= at do > not > > forward > > > unsolicited inbound packets to the CE Router, unle= ss > implemented > > in > > > conjunction with a method to control the external = port > mapping, > > such > > > as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970] (UPnP Internet Gateway De= vice - > Port > > Control > > > Protocol Interworking Function). > > > > > > > [Med] this text does not recommend implementing the IWF= . > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > > De: > > > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 7:26 > > > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 > Ops > > List > > > > > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4= aas > discussion > > > > > > Hi Jordi, > > > > > > As you are on it, and given the IETF recommendati= on in > RFC6888: > > > > > > REQ-9: A CGN MUST implement a protocol giving > subscribers > > explicit > > > control over NAT mappings. That protocol S= HOULD be > the > > Port > > > Control Protocol [RFC6887]. > > > > > > which would apply also to the PLAT, I suggest you= add an > item > > in the > > > 464lat section to support RFC6970. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Med > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De l= a part > de > > JORDI PALET > > > MARTINEZ > > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 21:41 > > > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transitio= n- > ipv4aas > > discussion > > > > > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > > > > > As I've moved sections 3 & 4 to the end of the = document > as > > annexes, > > > I've > > > > added a new small section for UPnP with your te= xt. I > think > > this also > > > helps to > > > > clarify one of the issues raised by Lee. > > > > > > > > I'm working on all this changes with my co-auth= ors, and > if we > > are good > > > with > > > > them, we probably will submit the new version i= n a > couple of > > days or > > > so. > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > > > De: v6ops en nombre de= Richard > > Patterson > > > > > > > > Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 25 de abril de 2018, 11:= 16 > > > > Para: V6 Ops List > > > > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transitio= n- > ipv4aas > > discussion > > > > > > > > Section 4 only briefly touches on UPnP, I'd= like to > > propose that we > > > > make a recommendation around its behaviour = if it is > > enabled. > > > > > > > > UPnP MAY be enabled on the IPv6 transition = CE, for > > stateless > > > > mechanisms that forward unsolicited inbound= packets > > through to the > > > CE. > > > > If UPnP is enabled, the agent MUST reject a= ny port > > mapping requests > > > > for ports outside of the range(s) allocated= to the > IPv6 > > transition > > > CE. > > > > > > > > UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechan= isms > that do > > not forward > > > > unsolicited inbound packets to the CE, unle= ss > implemented > > in > > > > conjunction with a method to control the ex= ternal > port > > mapping, > > > such > > > > as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970]. > > > > > > > > -Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25 April 2018 at 01:38, Fred Baker > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Apr 24, 2018, at 12:13 PM, STARK, BAR= BARA H > > > > > wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> But that doesn't mean I believe the draf= t has > exactly > > the right > > > set of > > > > features included. My understanding of "adoptio= n" is > that it > > is still > > > > possible post-adoption to discuss whether speci= fic > features / > > > requirements do > > > > or don't belong. If the precise set of features= and > > requirements must > > > be > > > > agreed upon prior to adoption, then I would not= be in > support > > of > > > adoption. > > > > Hopefully we aren't setting the bar that high? > > > > > > > > > > I understand "adoption as a working group= draft" > to > > mean that the > > > > working group has agreed to work on the draft. = There > are some > > working > > > groups > > > > that seem to confuse "adoption as a work group = draft" > with > > "agreement > > > to send > > > > it to the IESG"; I don't, but expect conversati= on in > between > > those two > > > > events. > > > > > > > > > > That said, I'd like to believe that the d= raft is > pretty > > close, > > > and that > > > > changes that need to be made to it will have te= xt > offered by > > the people > > > that > > > > want them. So - keep your cards and letters com= ing... > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________= ______ > > > > > v6ops mailing list > > > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6o= ps > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___________________________________________= ____ > > > > v6ops mailing list > > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > > > IPv4 is over > > > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > > > http://www.consulintel.es > > > > The IPv6 Company > > > > > > > > This electronic message contains information wh= ich may > be > > privileged or > > > > confidential. The information is intended to be= for the > > exclusive use > > > of the > > > > individual(s) named above and further non-expli= cilty > > authorized > > > disclosure, > > > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of= this > > information, even > > > if > > > > partially, including attached files, is strictl= y > prohibited > > and will be > > > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not t= he > intended > > recipient be > > > aware > > > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or u= se of > the > > contents of > > > this > > > > information, even if partially, including attac= hed > files, is > > strictly > > > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offen= se, so > you > > must reply to > > > the > > > > original sender to inform about this communicat= ion and > delete > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > v6ops mailing list > > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > > IPv4 is over > > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > > http://www.consulintel.es > > > The IPv6 Company > > > > > > This electronic message contains information which ma= y be > > privileged or > > > confidential. The information is intended to be for t= he > exclusive > > use of the > > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty > authorized > > disclosure, > > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > information, > > even if > > > partially, including attached files, is strictly proh= ibited > and > > will be > > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the int= ended > > recipient be aware > > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of = the > contents > > of this > > > information, even if partially, including attached fi= les, is > > strictly > > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so= you > must > > reply to the > > > original sender to inform about this communication an= d delete > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > v6ops mailing list > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.consulintel.es > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be privi= leged or > > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusi= ve use > of the > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this informatio= n, even > if > > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and= will be > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended reci= pient be > aware > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the conten= ts of > this > > information, even if partially, including attached files, is st= rictly > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must = reply to > the > > original sender to inform about this communication and delete i= t. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use= of the > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized discl= osure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve= n if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will = be > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient = be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of = this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply = to the > original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Fri Apr 27 03:52:12 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F69E120726 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 03:52:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id dibHCx2QS9M5 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 03:52:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orange.com (mta239.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 04C111200F1 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 03:52:07 -0700 (PDT) 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<2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12819@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6EFCF64D-3D6E-4A05-BA29-EB18C13FF7B9@consulintel.es> <97D94545-B06B-46D7-8874-C7C2BE141745@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF128D1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <18D5AA86-E01A-4D0B-BDDA-8760454C870C@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12930@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.6] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list 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with ESMTPA id md50005759252.msg for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 13:03:15 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:84e0:2b0d:5b07:af6a X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 13:03:15 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=16558f0734=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 13:03:11 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: <3ED28592-574A-4E76-AE01-F9861FE641BB@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12819@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6EFCF64D-3D6E-4A05-BA29-EB18C13FF7B9@consulintel.es> <97D94545-B06B-46D7-8874-C7C2BE141745@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF128D1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <18D5AA86-E01A-4D0B-BDDA-8760454C870C@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12930@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12A08@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12A08@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 11:03:23 -0000 I mean in the scenario when a CE or host behind a NAT64 want to ask the NAT= 64 for specific IPv4 incoming traffic. I thought you can do that as well if= the NAT64 supports PCP, and if that's the case, the CE/host will need to t= ell the PCP server (so again, if no PCP server is configured, the CE could = assume, by default, that the NAT64 is the PCP server). Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 12:52 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Re-, =20 It does not make sense to use the same text for the following reasons: =20 * NAT64 deployments do not require explicit configuration of the NAT64 = instance to use at the CPE/host side, while in DS-Lite the configuration of= the AFTR is required. * Packets from the host embedding the CLAT are native IPv6 packets, so = PCP requests will just fly as native IPv6 packets. The situation is differe= nt for DS-Lite because IPv4 user traffic is encapsulated over IPv6 to the A= FTR. =20 =20 Cheers, Med =20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PALET = MARTINEZ > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 12:26 > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 > Agree, it makes sense. >=20 > I don't know if other operators are using also the same approach when= using > NAT64. May be nobody considered, but I think it will make sense to ha= ve the > same text as well? >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 11:21 > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 > Re-, >=20 > Thank you. >=20 > For DS-Lite, you may mention the following : > - when no PCP server is configured, the CPE assumes by default th= at the > AFTR is the PCP server. > - a plain IPv6 mode is used to send PCP requests to the server. >=20 > This is how PCP is deployed today for DS-lite. It is worth to hav= e it > documented. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI = PALET > MARTINEZ > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 11:04 > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discus= sion > > > > Done, thanks! > > > > So, I removed the SHOULD for PCP, as it is already in RFC7084, = but > added (DS- > > LITE and 464XLAT): > > > > The CE Router SHOULD support IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970] (UPnP > > Internet Gateway Device - Port Control Protocol > > Interworking Function). > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > De: > > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 10:37 > > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops= List > > > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discus= sion > > > > Jordi, > > > > That is what I was suggesting. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de = JORDI > PALET > > MARTINEZ > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 10:32 > > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas > discussion > > > > > > Responding to myself ... The alternative maybe to not say > anything > > about > > > RFC6887, so the SHOULD in RFC7084 is in effect and add a = SHOULD > for > > RFC6970. > > > > > > Regards, > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > > De: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ > > > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 10:27 > > > Para: V6 Ops List > > > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas > discussion > > > > > > The difference is in RFC7084 is a SHOULD for RFC6887,= while > here > > I'm > > > suggesting a MUST when DS-LITE or 464XLAT are implemented= . > > > > > > Asking a MUST for RFC6970, and not having a MUST in R= FC6887 > seems > > weird > > > ... > > > > > > Regards, > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > > De: > > > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 9:45 > > > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 > Ops > > List > > > > > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4= aas > discussion > > > > > > Re-, > > > > > > Please see inline. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Med > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De l= a part > de > > JORDI > > > PALET MARTINEZ > > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 08:27 > > > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transitio= n- > ipv4aas > > discussion > > > > > > > > Hi Med, > > > > > > > > In the document I'm editing right now, I've it = already > > support for > > > RFC6887 > > > > (464XLAT-2): > > > > > > [Med] You don't need to add an item for 6887 sinc= e this > is > > already > > > covered in 7084: > > > > > > W-6: The WAN interface of the CE router SHOUL= D > support a > > Port > > > Control Protocol (PCP) client as specifi= ed in > > [RFC6887] for > > > use > > > by applications on the CE router. The P= CP > client > > SHOULD > > > follow > > > the procedure specified in Section 8.1 o= f > [RFC6887] to > > > discover > > > its PCP server. This document takes no = position > on > > whether > > > such functionality is enabled by default= or > mechanisms > > by > > > which > > > users would configure the functionality. > Handling PCP > > > requests > > > from PCP clients in the LAN side of the = CE > router is > > out of > > > scope. > > > > > > My comment is about the IWF which is needed to al= low an > UPnP > > Control > > > Point to interact with a PCP server. > > > > > > > > > > > 464XLAT requirements: > > > > > > > > 464XLAT-1: The CE Router MUST perform IPv4 = Network > > Address > > > > Translation (NAT) on IPv4 traffi= c > translated > > using > > > the > > > > CLAT, unless a dedicated /64 pre= fix has > been > > > acquired > > > > using DHCPv6-PD [RFC3633] (IPv6 = Prefix > Options > > for > > > > DHCPv6). > > > > > > > > 464XLAT-2: The CE Router MUST support PCP [= RFC6887] > (Port > > > Control > > > > Protocol), for explicit control = over > NAT64 > > mappings. > > > > > > [Med] This one should be removed since it overlap= s with > W-6 in > > 7084. > > > > > > > > > > > 464XLAT-3: The CE Router MUST implement [RF= C7050] > > (Discovery of > > > the > > > > IPv6 Prefix Used for IPv6 Addres= s > Synthesis) > > in > > > order to > > > > discover the PLAT-side translati= on IPv4 > and > > IPv6 > > > > prefix(es)/suffix(es). The CE R= outer > MUST > > follow > > > > [RFC7225] (Discovering NAT64 IPv= 6 > Prefixes > > Using the > > > > PCP), in order to learn the PLAT= -side > > translation > > > IPv4 > > > > and IPv6 prefix(es)/suffix(es) u= sed by > an > > upstream > > > PCP- > > > > controlled NAT64 device. > > > > > > > > > > > > But I now realice that it should be added as we= ll to > the DS- > > Lite > > > section, as > > > > it was not present in RFC7084. This is what I'v= e right > now: > > > > > > > > DS-Lite requirements: > > > > > > > > DSLITE-1: The IPv6 CE router MUST support > configuration > > of DS- > > > Lite > > > > via the DS-Lite DHCPv6 option [RF= C6334] > (DHCPv6 > > > Option for > > > > Dual-Stack Lite). The IPv6 CE ro= uter MAY > use > > other > > > > mechanisms to configure DS-Lite > parameters. > > Such > > > > mechanisms are outside the scope = of this > > document. > > > > > > > > DSLITE-2: The IPv6 CE router MUST NOT perfo= rm IPv4 > > Network > > > Address > > > > Translation (NAT) on IPv4 traffic > encapsulated > > using > > > DS- > > > > Lite. > > > > > > > > > > > > So just to make sure, you mean to add also to b= oth, > 464LAT > > and DS- > > > LITE also a > > > > MUST for RFC6970 ? > > > > > > [Med] Yes, I'd like to add an item for the IWF, n= ot the > PCP > > Client > > > functionality. > > > > > > > > > > > We have a new section with this text suggested = by > Richard: > > > > > > > > 5. UPnP IGD-PCP IWF Support > > > > > > > > UPnP MAY be enabled on the CE Router for sta= teless > > mechanisms > > > that > > > > forward unsolicited inbound packets through = to the > CE. If > > UPnP > > > is > > > > enabled, the agent MUST reject any port mapp= ing > requests > > for > > > ports > > > > outside of the range(s) allocated to the CE = Router. > > > > > > > > UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechani= sms that > do > > not > > > forward > > > > unsolicited inbound packets to the CE Router= , unless > > implemented > > > in > > > > conjunction with a method to control the ext= ernal > port > > mapping, > > > such > > > > as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970] (UPnP Internet Gate= way > Device - > > Port > > > Control > > > > Protocol Interworking Function). > > > > > > > > > > [Med] this text does not recommend implementing t= he IWF. > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > > > De: > > > > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 7:26 > > > > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ > , V6 > > Ops > > > List > > > > > > > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transitio= n- > ipv4aas > > discussion > > > > > > > > Hi Jordi, > > > > > > > > As you are on it, and given the IETF recomm= endation > in > > RFC6888: > > > > > > > > REQ-9: A CGN MUST implement a protocol = giving > > subscribers > > > explicit > > > > control over NAT mappings. That prot= ocol > SHOULD be > > the > > > Port > > > > Control Protocol [RFC6887]. > > > > > > > > which would apply also to the PLAT, I sugge= st you > add an > > item > > > in the > > > > 464lat section to support RFC6970. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Med > > > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org= ] De la > part > > de > > > JORDI PALET > > > > MARTINEZ > > > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 21:41 > > > > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > > > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-tra= nsition- > > ipv4aas > > > discussion > > > > > > > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > > > > > > > As I've moved sections 3 & 4 to the end o= f the > document > > as > > > annexes, > > > > I've > > > > > added a new small section for UPnP with y= our > text. I > > think > > > this also > > > > helps to > > > > > clarify one of the issues raised by Lee. > > > > > > > > > > I'm working on all this changes with my c= o- > authors, and > > if we > > > are good > > > > with > > > > > them, we probably will submit the new ver= sion in > a > > couple of > > > days or > > > > so. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > > > > De: v6ops en nom= bre de > Richard > > > Patterson > > > > > > > > > > Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 25 de abril de 201= 8, 11:16 > > > > > Para: V6 Ops List > > > > > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-tra= nsition- > > ipv4aas > > > discussion > > > > > > > > > > Section 4 only briefly touches on UPn= P, I'd > like to > > > propose that we > > > > > make a recommendation around its beha= viour if > it is > > > enabled. > > > > > > > > > > UPnP MAY be enabled on the IPv6 trans= ition > CE, for > > > stateless > > > > > mechanisms that forward unsolicited i= nbound > packets > > > through to the > > > > CE. > > > > > If UPnP is enabled, the agent MUST re= ject any > port > > > mapping requests > > > > > for ports outside of the range(s) all= ocated > to the > > IPv6 > > > transition > > > > CE. > > > > > > > > > > UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful > mechanisms > > that do > > > not forward > > > > > unsolicited inbound packets to the CE= , unless > > implemented > > > in > > > > > conjunction with a method to control = the > external > > port > > > mapping, > > > > such > > > > > as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970]. > > > > > > > > > > -Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25 April 2018 at 01:38, Fred Baker > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Apr 24, 2018, at 12:13 PM, STAR= K, > BARBARA H > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> But that doesn't mean I believe th= e draft > has > > exactly > > > the right > > > > set of > > > > > features included. My understanding of "a= doption" > is > > that it > > > is still > > > > > possible post-adoption to discuss whether > specific > > features / > > > > requirements do > > > > > or don't belong. If the precise set of fe= atures > and > > > requirements must > > > > be > > > > > agreed upon prior to adoption, then I wou= ld not > be in > > support > > > of > > > > adoption. > > > > > Hopefully we aren't setting the bar that = high? > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand "adoption as a working= group > draft" > > to > > > mean that the > > > > > working group has agreed to work on the d= raft. > There > > are some > > > working > > > > groups > > > > > that seem to confuse "adoption as a work = group > draft" > > with > > > "agreement > > > > to send > > > > > it to the IESG"; I don't, but expect conv= ersation > in > > between > > > those two > > > > > events. > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, I'd like to believe that= the > draft is > > pretty > > > close, > > > > and that > > > > > changes that need to be made to it will h= ave text > > offered by > > > the people > > > > that > > > > > want them. So - keep your cards and lette= rs > coming... > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > v6ops mailing list > > > > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > v6ops mailing list > > > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo= /v6ops > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *****************************************= ***** > > > > > IPv4 is over > > > > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > > > > http://www.consulintel.es > > > > > The IPv6 Company > > > > > > > > > > This electronic message contains informat= ion > which may > > be > > > privileged or > > > > > confidential. The information is intended= to be > for the > > > exclusive use > > > > of the > > > > > individual(s) named above and further non= - > explicilty > > > authorized > > > > disclosure, > > > > > copying, distribution or use of the conte= nts of > this > > > information, even > > > > if > > > > > partially, including attached files, is s= trictly > > prohibited > > > and will be > > > > > considered a criminal offense. If you are= not the > > intended > > > recipient be > > > > aware > > > > > that any disclosure, copying, distributio= n or use > of > > the > > > contents of > > > > this > > > > > information, even if partially, including > attached > > files, is > > > strictly > > > > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal > offense, so > > you > > > must reply to > > > > the > > > > > original sender to inform about this > communication and > > delete > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________= ______ > > > > > v6ops mailing list > > > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6o= ps > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > > > IPv4 is over > > > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > > > http://www.consulintel.es > > > > The IPv6 Company > > > > > > > > This electronic message contains information wh= ich may > be > > > privileged or > > > > confidential. The information is intended to be= for the > > exclusive > > > use of the > > > > individual(s) named above and further non-expli= cilty > > authorized > > > disclosure, > > > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of= this > > information, > > > even if > > > > partially, including attached files, is strictl= y > prohibited > > and > > > will be > > > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not t= he > intended > > > recipient be aware > > > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or u= se of > the > > contents > > > of this > > > > information, even if partially, including attac= hed > files, is > > > strictly > > > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offen= se, so > you > > must > > > reply to the > > > > original sender to inform about this communicat= ion and > delete > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > v6ops mailing list > > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > > IPv4 is over > > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > > http://www.consulintel.es > > > The IPv6 Company > > > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be > privileged or > > > confidential. The information is intended to be for the e= xclusive > use > > of the > > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty auth= orized > > disclosure, > > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this info= rmation, > even > > if > > > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibit= ed and > will be > > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intende= d > recipient be > > aware > > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the = contents > of > > this > > > information, even if partially, including attached files,= is > strictly > > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you= must > reply to > > the > > > original sender to inform about this communication and de= lete it. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > v6ops mailing list > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.consulintel.es > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be privi= leged or > > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusi= ve use > of the > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this informatio= n, even > if > > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and= will be > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended reci= pient be > aware > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the conten= ts of > this > > information, even if partially, including attached files, is st= rictly > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must = reply to > the > > original sender to inform about this communication and delete i= t. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use= of the > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized discl= osure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve= n if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will = be > considered a criminal offense. 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ZXRlIGl0Lg0KPiANCj4gDQo+IA0KPiBfX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fXw0KPiB2Nm9wcyBtYWlsaW5nIGxpc3QNCj4gdjZvcHNAaWV0Zi5vcmcNCj4g aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby92Nm9wcw0K From nobody Fri Apr 27 04:30:23 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 40D8F126C19 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 04:30:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=helix-net-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) 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[209.85.214.51]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id m184-v6sm462233ioa.27.2018.04.27.04.30.16 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 27 Apr 2018 04:30:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-f51.google.com with SMTP id 71-v6so1395192ith.2 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 04:30:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a24:f047:: with SMTP id p7-v6mr1060989iti.130.1524828616538; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 04:30:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <694A1FF1-CA8C-42CC-87F3-789EA71807AE@employees.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12849@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12849@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Richard Patterson Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 11:30:05 +0000 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "v6ops@ietf.org list" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 11:30:22 -0000 Hi Ole, apologies for the indirect reply, but Gmail appears to have filtered your email. > From my perspective PCP from customers to control CGNs is not going to b= e deployed. I'd be happy to hear otherwise. I'm in two minds about this. On one hand it may help existing applications when used alongside the UPnP IWF, but on the other it would be at best, intermittent. This intermittent-ness could allow an Xbox to successfully open up port 3074 on Monday during the day, when no other customers sharing the IPv4 address have already taken it, but would fail on Friday night when another customer turned their Xbox on first and already mapped the port. Intermittent faults like this could drive more inbound calls to our call centre, which have a tangible cost impact on the business, not to mention arguably a worse customer experience. I'm inclined to prefer reproducible and predictable failures so the fault can be more reliable identified. We did trial PCP with the RFC6970 IWF on our CPEs using NAT444, but only as a staff trial, we never deployed it (NAT444) to production customers. -Rich On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 at 08:54, wrote: > Hi Ole, > Please see inline. > Cheers, > Med > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : Ole Troan [mailto:otroan@employees.org] > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 08:34 > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > Cc : JORDI PALET MARTINEZ; BOUCADAIR Mohamed IMT/OLN > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion > > > > > > > As you are on it, and given the IETF recommendation in RFC6888: > > > > > > REQ-9: A CGN MUST implement a protocol giving subscribers explicit > > > control over NAT mappings. That protocol SHOULD be the Port > > > Control Protocol [RFC6887]. > > > > > > which would apply also to the PLAT, I suggest you add an item in the 464lat > > section to support RFC6970. > > > > I think that requirement needs to be reality checked. > > Has any of the operators of CGNs deployed PCP? > [Med] Yes, I confirm. PCP is a deployment reality (DS-Lite context in particular). Please refer to the file shared by Lee about IPv6 deployments. > Would they allow customers to > > control NAT mappings at all? > [Med] Yes. > Or would that just be a different subscription > > plan? > [Med] This is part of the normal service: > * a GUI is provided on the CPE to allow creating mappings > * an UPnP IGD/PCP IWF is enabled to allow internal hosts to instantiate mappings on the CGN. > > For the other IPv4aaS mechanisms it isn't even an option... > > > > From my perspective PCP from customers to control CGNs is not going to be > > deployed. > [Med] You lose! This is already deployed. > I'd be happy to hear otherwise. > [Med] Now you are :) > > > > Ole > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Med > > > > > >> -----Message d'origine----- > > >> De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PALET > > MARTINEZ > > >> Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 21:41 > > >> =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > >> Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion > > >> > > >> Hi Richard, > > >> > > >> As I've moved sections 3 & 4 to the end of the document as annexes, I've > > >> added a new small section for UPnP with your text. I think this also helps > > to > > >> clarify one of the issues raised by Lee. > > >> > > >> I'm working on all this changes with my co-authors, and if we are good > > with > > >> them, we probably will submit the new version in a couple of days or so. > > >> > > >> Thanks! > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> Jordi > > >> > > >> > > >> =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > >> De: v6ops en nombre de Richard Patterson > > >> > > >> Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 25 de abril de 2018, 11:16 > > >> Para: V6 Ops List > > >> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion > > >> > > >> Section 4 only briefly touches on UPnP, I'd like to propose that we > > >> make a recommendation around its behaviour if it is enabled. > > >> > > >> UPnP MAY be enabled on the IPv6 transition CE, for stateless > > >> mechanisms that forward unsolicited inbound packets through to the CE. > > >> If UPnP is enabled, the agent MUST reject any port mapping requests > > >> for ports outside of the range(s) allocated to the IPv6 transition CE. > > >> > > >> UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechanisms that do not forward > > >> unsolicited inbound packets to the CE, unless implemented in > > >> conjunction with a method to control the external port mapping, such > > >> as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970]. > > >> > > >> -Richard > > >> > > >> > > >> On 25 April 2018 at 01:38, Fred Baker wrote: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>>> On Apr 24, 2018, at 12:13 PM, STARK, BARBARA H wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> But that doesn't mean I believe the draft has exactly the right set of > > >> features included. My understanding of "adoption" is that it is stil= l > > >> possible post-adoption to discuss whether specific features / requirements > > do > > >> or don't belong. If the precise set of features and requirements must be > > >> agreed upon prior to adoption, then I would not be in support of adoption. > > >> Hopefully we aren't setting the bar that high? > > >>> > > >>> I understand "adoption as a working group draft" to mean that the > > >> working group has agreed to work on the draft. There are some workin= g > > groups > > >> that seem to confuse "adoption as a work group draft" with "agreement to > > send > > >> it to the IESG"; I don't, but expect conversation in between those two > > >> events. > > >>> > > >>> That said, I'd like to believe that the draft is pretty close, and that > > >> changes that need to be made to it will have text offered by the people > > that > > >> want them. So - keep your cards and letters coming... > > >>> > > >>> _______________________________________________ > > >>> v6ops mailing list > > >>> v6ops@ietf.org > > >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > >>> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> v6ops mailing list > > >> v6ops@ietf.org > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> ********************************************** > > >> IPv4 is over > > >> Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > >> http://www.consulintel.es > > >> The IPv6 Company > > >> > > >> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or > > >> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of > > the > > >> individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > > disclosure, > > >> copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if > > >> partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be > > >> considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be > > aware > > >> that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this > > >> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictl= y > > >> prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to > > the > > >> original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> _______________________________________________ > > >> v6ops mailing list > > >> v6ops@ietf.org > > >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > _______________________________________________ > > > v6ops mailing list > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops From nobody Fri Apr 27 05:03:45 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) 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(CEST) Received: from Exchangemail-eme2.itn.ftgroup (unknown [xx.xx.31.62]) by opfednr04.francetelecom.fr (ESMTP service) with ESMTP id E170840077; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 14:03:38 +0200 (CEST) Received: from OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::60a9:abc3:86e6:2541]) by OPEXCLILM5E.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup ([fe80::2912:bfa5:91d3:bf63%18]) with mapi id 14.03.0389.001; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 14:03:38 +0200 From: To: Richard Patterson , "v6ops@ietf.org list" Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Thread-Index: AQHT3hsuQzcNOUZrKkejk+HQXzHgE6QUgSGg Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 12:03:37 +0000 Message-ID: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12AC0@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <694A1FF1-CA8C-42CC-87F3-789EA71807AE@employees.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12849@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 12:03:44 -0000 SGkgUmljaGFyZCwgDQoNClRoYW5rIHlvdSBmb3Igc2hhcmluZyB0aGlzIGluZm9ybWF0aW9uLiAN Cg0KQXMgeW91IGtub3csIHRoaXMgYSBwcm9ibGVtIG9mIFVQblAgSUdEOjEgbm90IFVQblAgSUdE OjIgYW5kIHRoZSBiZWhhdmlvciBhZG9wdGVkIGJ5IGFwcGxpY2F0aW9ucywgZS5nLiwgDQoNCiog QW4gYXBwIGNhbGxzIEdldFNwZWNpZmljUG9ydE1hcHBpbmcgdW50aWwgaXQgZmluZHMgYW4gZXh0 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Xw0KPiA+IHY2b3BzIG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdA0KPiA+IHY2b3BzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+ID4gaHR0cHM6 Ly93d3cuaWV0Zi5vcmcvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby92Nm9wcw0KPiANCj4gX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18NCj4gdjZvcHMgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0 DQo+IHY2b3BzQGlldGYub3JnDQo+IGh0dHBzOi8vd3d3LmlldGYub3JnL21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGlu Zm8vdjZvcHMNCg== From nobody Fri Apr 27 05:46:22 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 621B4120724 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 05:46:20 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) 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[209.85.223.175]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id j195-v6sm440791itb.40.2018.04.27.05.46.16 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Fri, 27 Apr 2018 05:46:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-f175.google.com with SMTP id d73-v6so2302176iog.3 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 05:46:16 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a6b:afe4:: with SMTP id p97-v6mr635486ioo.257.1524833176544; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 05:46:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <694A1FF1-CA8C-42CC-87F3-789EA71807AE@employees.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12849@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12AC0@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12AC0@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> From: Richard Patterson Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 12:46:06 +0000 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "v6ops@ietf.org list" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 12:46:20 -0000 On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 at 13:03, wrote: > I know some applications are still using IGD:1, but I hope they will move to the IGD:2. When I was testing this nearly 4 years ago, I struggled to find CPEs with IGD:2 support. Hopefully the landscape has changed now that IGD:1 has been deprecated. But then as you say, we still need the applications to update their behaviour and adopt the looser AddAnyPortMapping() instead of the more specific AddPortMapping() I'd be more confident in RFC6970 as a useful mitigation then. -Rich From nobody Fri Apr 27 06:54:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 34CE8124D68 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 06:54:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id To-1fFh1BMlR for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 06:54:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id ED45B1200E5 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 06:54:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524837284; x=1525442084; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=/F4sh1O5 nEx35B9kWk+SiHjeWwXqvcrWhRH1wbjYis0=; b=ecWLkCF7jxyvi9Ev3dBnsicB fA8SECZujFkXe8UTFN/fM2RFN/XZrIEUC3LDkzELHH+LNI5b7SCQEvi7UOe7d3S6 t7/8D9pShCpPObmjphE2L8TN4KuAZb+99ejdtfDO/0PSPcye6O0i9DQuJbof66ny F4wHwbZ5LrYSBG99umU= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 27 Apr 2018 15:54:44 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Fri, 27 Apr 2018 15:54:42 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005759359.msg for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 15:54:41 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:2858:1a0:85b2:6f53 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 15:54:41 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=16558f0734=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 15:54:40 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: V6 Ops List Message-ID: Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12819@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6EFCF64D-3D6E-4A05-BA29-EB18C13FF7B9@consulintel.es> <97D94545-B06B-46D7-8874-C7C2BE141745@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF128D1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <18D5AA86-E01A-4D0B-BDDA-8760454C870C@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12930@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12A08@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3ED28592-574A-4E76-AE01-F9861FE641BB@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12A5B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12A5B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 13:54:51 -0000 Typically, the NAT64 will be the default GW ... but it is true that you may= have also installed a more specific route for the NAT64 prefix/suffix (in = addition to the default one). Maybe what it makes sense anyway, is to have also a MUST for the RFC7291 y = PCP is implemented by the CE. Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 13:15 Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion Re-, =20 Please see inline.=20 =20 Cheers, Med =20 > -----Message d'origine----- > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PALET = MARTINEZ > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 13:03 > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 > I mean in the scenario when a CE or host behind a NAT64 want to ask t= he NAT64 > for specific IPv4 incoming traffic. =20 [Med] Yes. See for example the experiments we did using an Android Phon= e: https://www.ietf.org/proceedings/85/slides/slides-85-pcp-6.pdf=20 =20 I thought you can do that as well if the > NAT64 supports PCP, and if that's the case, the CE/host will need to = tell the > PCP server (so again, if no PCP server is configured, the CE could as= sume, by > default, that the NAT64 is the PCP server). =20 [Med] Yeah, but the CE is not aware of the NAT64. This is why it is nee= ded to configure explicitly the PCP server on the CE for 464xlat case: RFC = 7291.=20 =20 >=20 > Regards, > Jordi >=20 >=20 > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > De: > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 12:52 > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops List > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >=20 > Re-, >=20 > It does not make sense to use the same text for the following rea= sons: >=20 > * NAT64 deployments do not require explicit configuration of the = NAT64 > instance to use at the CPE/host side, while in DS-Lite the configurat= ion of > the AFTR is required. > * Packets from the host embedding the CLAT are native IPv6 packet= s, so > PCP requests will just fly as native IPv6 packets. The situation is d= ifferent > for DS-Lite because IPv4 user traffic is encapsulated over IPv6 to th= e AFTR. >=20 > Cheers, > Med >=20 > > -----Message d'origine----- > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI = PALET > MARTINEZ > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 12:26 > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discus= sion > > > > Agree, it makes sense. > > > > I don't know if other operators are using also the same approac= h when > using > > NAT64. May be nobody considered, but I think it will make sense= to have > the > > same text as well? > > > > Regards, > > Jordi > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > De: > > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 11:21 > > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , V6 Ops= List > > > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discus= sion > > > > Re-, > > > > Thank you. > > > > For DS-Lite, you may mention the following : > > - when no PCP server is configured, the CPE assumes by defa= ult that > the > > AFTR is the PCP server. > > - a plain IPv6 mode is used to send PCP requests to the ser= ver. > > > > This is how PCP is deployed today for DS-lite. It is worth = to have > it > > documented. > > > > Cheers, > > Med > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de = JORDI > PALET > > MARTINEZ > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 11:04 > > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas > discussion > > > > > > Done, thanks! > > > > > > So, I removed the SHOULD for PCP, as it is already in RFC= 7084, > but > > added (DS- > > > LITE and 464XLAT): > > > > > > The CE Router SHOULD support IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970] (UPnP > > > Internet Gateway Device - Port Control Pro= tocol > > > Interworking Function). > > > > > > Regards, > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > > De: > > > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 10:37 > > > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , = V6 Ops > List > > > > > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas > discussion > > > > > > Jordi, > > > > > > That is what I was suggesting. > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Med > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la pa= rt de > JORDI > > PALET > > > MARTINEZ > > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 10:32 > > > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ip= v4aas > > discussion > > > > > > > > Responding to myself ... The alternative maybe to n= ot say > > anything > > > about > > > > RFC6887, so the SHOULD in RFC7084 is in effect and = add a > SHOULD > > for > > > RFC6970. > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > > > De: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ > > > > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 10:27 > > > > Para: V6 Ops List > > > > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ip= v4aas > > discussion > > > > > > > > The difference is in RFC7084 is a SHOULD for RF= C6887, > while > > here > > > I'm > > > > suggesting a MUST when DS-LITE or 464XLAT are imple= mented. > > > > > > > > Asking a MUST for RFC6970, and not having a MUS= T in > RFC6887 > > seems > > > weird > > > > ... > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > > > De: > > > > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 9:45 > > > > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ > , V6 > > Ops > > > List > > > > > > > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transitio= n- > ipv4aas > > discussion > > > > > > > > Re-, > > > > > > > > Please see inline. > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > Med > > > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org= ] De la > part > > de > > > JORDI > > > > PALET MARTINEZ > > > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 27 avril 2018 08:2= 7 > > > > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > > > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-tra= nsition- > > ipv4aas > > > discussion > > > > > > > > > > Hi Med, > > > > > > > > > > In the document I'm editing right now, I'= ve it > already > > > support for > > > > RFC6887 > > > > > (464XLAT-2): > > > > > > > > [Med] You don't need to add an item for 688= 7 since > this > > is > > > already > > > > covered in 7084: > > > > > > > > W-6: The WAN interface of the CE router= SHOULD > > support a > > > Port > > > > Control Protocol (PCP) client as s= pecified > in > > > [RFC6887] for > > > > use > > > > by applications on the CE router. = The PCP > > client > > > SHOULD > > > > follow > > > > the procedure specified in Section= 8.1 of > > [RFC6887] to > > > > discover > > > > its PCP server. This document tak= es no > position > > on > > > whether > > > > such functionality is enabled by d= efault > or > > mechanisms > > > by > > > > which > > > > users would configure the function= ality. > > Handling PCP > > > > requests > > > > from PCP clients in the LAN side o= f the CE > > router is > > > out of > > > > scope. > > > > > > > > My comment is about the IWF which is needed= to > allow an > > UPnP > > > Control > > > > Point to interact with a PCP server. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 464XLAT requirements: > > > > > > > > > > 464XLAT-1: The CE Router MUST perform= IPv4 > Network > > > Address > > > > > Translation (NAT) on IPv4 = traffic > > translated > > > using > > > > the > > > > > CLAT, unless a dedicated /= 64 > prefix has > > been > > > > acquired > > > > > using DHCPv6-PD [RFC3633] = (IPv6 > Prefix > > Options > > > for > > > > > DHCPv6). > > > > > > > > > > 464XLAT-2: The CE Router MUST support= PCP > [RFC6887] > > (Port > > > > Control > > > > > Protocol), for explicit co= ntrol > over > > NAT64 > > > mappings. > > > > > > > > [Med] This one should be removed since it o= verlaps > with > > W-6 in > > > 7084. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 464XLAT-3: The CE Router MUST impleme= nt > [RFC7050] > > > (Discovery of > > > > the > > > > > IPv6 Prefix Used for IPv6 = Address > > Synthesis) > > > in > > > > order to > > > > > discover the PLAT-side tra= nslation > IPv4 > > and > > > IPv6 > > > > > prefix(es)/suffix(es). Th= e CE > Router > > MUST > > > follow > > > > > [RFC7225] (Discovering NAT= 64 IPv6 > > Prefixes > > > Using the > > > > > PCP), in order to learn th= e PLAT- > side > > > translation > > > > IPv4 > > > > > and IPv6 prefix(es)/suffix= (es) > used by > > an > > > upstream > > > > PCP- > > > > > controlled NAT64 device. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > But I now realice that it should be added= as well > to > > the DS- > > > Lite > > > > section, as > > > > > it was not present in RFC7084. This is wh= at I've > right > > now: > > > > > > > > > > DS-Lite requirements: > > > > > > > > > > DSLITE-1: The IPv6 CE router MUST sup= port > > configuration > > > of DS- > > > > Lite > > > > > via the DS-Lite DHCPv6 opti= on > [RFC6334] > > (DHCPv6 > > > > Option for > > > > > Dual-Stack Lite). The IPv6= CE > router MAY > > use > > > other > > > > > mechanisms to configure DS-= Lite > > parameters. > > > Such > > > > > mechanisms are outside the = scope of > this > > > document. > > > > > > > > > > DSLITE-2: The IPv6 CE router MUST NOT= perform > IPv4 > > > Network > > > > Address > > > > > Translation (NAT) on IPv4 t= raffic > > encapsulated > > > using > > > > DS- > > > > > Lite. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So just to make sure, you mean to add als= o to > both, > > 464LAT > > > and DS- > > > > LITE also a > > > > > MUST for RFC6970 ? > > > > > > > > [Med] Yes, I'd like to add an item for the = IWF, not > the > > PCP > > > Client > > > > functionality. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have a new section with this text sugg= ested by > > Richard: > > > > > > > > > > 5. UPnP IGD-PCP IWF Support > > > > > > > > > > UPnP MAY be enabled on the CE Router f= or > stateless > > > mechanisms > > > > that > > > > > forward unsolicited inbound packets th= rough to > the > > CE. If > > > UPnP > > > > is > > > > > enabled, the agent MUST reject any por= t > mapping > > requests > > > for > > > > ports > > > > > outside of the range(s) allocated to t= he CE > Router. > > > > > > > > > > UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful > mechanisms that > > do > > > not > > > > forward > > > > > unsolicited inbound packets to the CE = Router, > unless > > > implemented > > > > in > > > > > conjunction with a method to control t= he > external > > port > > > mapping, > > > > such > > > > > as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970] (UPnP Interne= t > Gateway > > Device - > > > Port > > > > Control > > > > > Protocol Interworking Function). > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Med] this text does not recommend implemen= ting the > IWF. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > > > > De: > > > > > Fecha: viernes, 27 de abril de 2018, 7:26 > > > > > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ > > , V6 > > > Ops > > > > List > > > > > > > > > > Asunto: RE: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-tra= nsition- > > ipv4aas > > > discussion > > > > > > > > > > Hi Jordi, > > > > > > > > > > As you are on it, and given the IETF > recommendation > > in > > > RFC6888: > > > > > > > > > > REQ-9: A CGN MUST implement a pro= tocol > giving > > > subscribers > > > > explicit > > > > > control over NAT mappings. Tha= t > protocol > > SHOULD be > > > the > > > > Port > > > > > Control Protocol [RFC6887]. > > > > > > > > > > which would apply also to the PLAT, I= suggest > you > > add an > > > item > > > > in the > > > > > 464lat section to support RFC6970. > > > > > > > > > > Cheers, > > > > > Med > > > > > > > > > > > -----Message d'origine----- > > > > > > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ie= tf.org] > De la > > part > > > de > > > > JORDI PALET > > > > > MARTINEZ > > > > > > Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 2= 1:41 > > > > > > =C3=80 : V6 Ops List > > > > > > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6o= ps- > transition- > > > ipv4aas > > > > discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Richard, > > > > > > > > > > > > As I've moved sections 3 & 4 to the= end of > the > > document > > > as > > > > annexes, > > > > > I've > > > > > > added a new small section for UPnP = with > your > > text. I > > > think > > > > this also > > > > > helps to > > > > > > clarify one of the issues raised by= Lee. > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm working on all this changes wit= h my co- > > authors, and > > > if we > > > > are good > > > > > with > > > > > > them, we probably will submit the n= ew > version in > > a > > > couple of > > > > days or > > > > > so. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Jordi > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- > > > > > > De: v6ops = en > nombre de > > Richard > > > > Patterson > > > > > > > > > > > > Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 25 de abril = de 2018, > 11:16 > > > > > > Para: V6 Ops List > > > > > > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6o= ps- > transition- > > > ipv4aas > > > > discussion > > > > > > > > > > > > Section 4 only briefly touches = on UPnP, > I'd > > like to > > > > propose that we > > > > > > make a recommendation around it= s > behaviour if > > it is > > > > enabled. > > > > > > > > > > > > UPnP MAY be enabled on the IPv6 > transition > > CE, for > > > > stateless > > > > > > mechanisms that forward unsolic= ited > inbound > > packets > > > > through to the > > > > > CE. > > > > > > If UPnP is enabled, the agent M= UST > reject any > > port > > > > mapping requests > > > > > > for ports outside of the range(= s) > allocated > > to the > > > IPv6 > > > > transition > > > > > CE. > > > > > > > > > > > > UPnP SHOULD be disabled for sta= teful > > mechanisms > > > that do > > > > not forward > > > > > > unsolicited inbound packets to = the CE, > unless > > > implemented > > > > in > > > > > > conjunction with a method to co= ntrol > the > > external > > > port > > > > mapping, > > > > > such > > > > > > as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970]. > > > > > > > > > > > > -Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 25 April 2018 at 01:38, Fred= Baker > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Apr 24, 2018, at 12:13 PM= , STARK, > > BARBARA H > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> But that doesn't mean I beli= eve the > draft > > has > > > exactly > > > > the right > > > > > set of > > > > > > features included. My understanding= of > "adoption" > > is > > > that it > > > > is still > > > > > > possible post-adoption to discuss w= hether > > specific > > > features / > > > > > requirements do > > > > > > or don't belong. If the precise set= of > features > > and > > > > requirements must > > > > > be > > > > > > agreed upon prior to adoption, then= I would > not > > be in > > > support > > > > of > > > > > adoption. > > > > > > Hopefully we aren't setting the bar= that > high? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I understand "adoption as a w= orking > group > > draft" > > > to > > > > mean that the > > > > > > working group has agreed to work on= the > draft. > > There > > > are some > > > > working > > > > > groups > > > > > > that seem to confuse "adoption as a= work > group > > draft" > > > with > > > > "agreement > > > > > to send > > > > > > it to the IESG"; I don't, but expec= t > conversation > > in > > > between > > > > those two > > > > > > events. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > That said, I'd like to believ= e that > the > > draft is > > > pretty > > > > close, > > > > > and that > > > > > > changes that need to be made to it = will > have text > > > offered by > > > > the people > > > > > that > > > > > > want them. So - keep your cards and= letters > > coming... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > > v6ops mailing list > > > > > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > v6ops mailing list > > > > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > > > > > IPv4 is over > > > > > > Are you ready for the new Internet = ? > > > > > > http://www.consulintel.es > > > > > > The IPv6 Company > > > > > > > > > > > > This electronic message contains > information > > which may > > > be > > > > privileged or > > > > > > confidential. The information is in= tended > to be > > for the > > > > exclusive use > > > > > of the > > > > > > individual(s) named above and furth= er non- > > explicilty > > > > authorized > > > > > disclosure, > > > > > > copying, distribution or use of the > contents of > > this > > > > information, even > > > > > if > > > > > > partially, including attached files= , is > strictly > > > prohibited > > > > and will be > > > > > > considered a criminal offense. If y= ou are > not the > > > intended > > > > recipient be > > > > > aware > > > > > > that any disclosure, copying, distr= ibution > or use > > of > > > the > > > > contents of > > > > > this > > > > > > information, even if partially, inc= luding > > attached > > > files, is > > > > strictly > > > > > > prohibited, will be considered a cr= iminal > > offense, so > > > you > > > > must reply to > > > > > the > > > > > > original sender to inform about thi= s > > communication and > > > delete > > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > > > v6ops mailing list > > > > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listin= fo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > *****************************************= ***** > > > > > IPv4 is over > > > > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > > > > http://www.consulintel.es > > > > > The IPv6 Company > > > > > > > > > > This electronic message contains informat= ion > which may > > be > > > > privileged or > > > > > confidential. The information is intended= to be > for the > > > exclusive > > > > use of the > > > > > individual(s) named above and further non= - > explicilty > > > authorized > > > > disclosure, > > > > > copying, distribution or use of the conte= nts of > this > > > information, > > > > even if > > > > > partially, including attached files, is s= trictly > > prohibited > > > and > > > > will be > > > > > considered a criminal offense. If you are= not the > > intended > > > > recipient be aware > > > > > that any disclosure, copying, distributio= n or use > of > > the > > > contents > > > > of this > > > > > information, even if partially, including > attached > > files, is > > > > strictly > > > > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal > offense, so > > you > > > must > > > > reply to the > > > > > original sender to inform about this > communication and > > delete > > > it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _________________________________________= ______ > > > > > v6ops mailing list > > > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6o= ps > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > > > IPv4 is over > > > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > > > http://www.consulintel.es > > > > The IPv6 Company > > > > > > > > This electronic message contains information which = may be > > privileged or > > > > confidential. The information is intended to be for= the > exclusive > > use > > > of the > > > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilt= y > authorized > > > disclosure, > > > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of thi= s > information, > > even > > > if > > > > partially, including attached files, is strictly pr= ohibited > and > > will be > > > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the i= ntended > > recipient be > > > aware > > > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use o= f the > contents > > of > > > this > > > > information, even if partially, including attached = files, > is > > strictly > > > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, = so you > must > > reply to > > > the > > > > original sender to inform about this communication = and > delete it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > v6ops mailing list > > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > > IPv4 is over > > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > > http://www.consulintel.es > > > The IPv6 Company > > > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be > privileged or > > > confidential. The information is intended to be for the e= xclusive > use > > of the > > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty auth= orized > > disclosure, > > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this info= rmation, > even > > if > > > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibit= ed and > will be > > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intende= d > recipient be > > aware > > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the = contents > of > > this > > > information, even if partially, including attached files,= is > strictly > > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you= must > reply to > > the > > > original sender to inform about this communication and de= lete it. > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > v6ops mailing list > > > v6ops@ietf.org > > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > > > > > > > > > > ********************************************** > > IPv4 is over > > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > > http://www.consulintel.es > > The IPv6 Company > > > > This electronic message contains information which may be privi= leged or > > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusi= ve use > of the > > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized > disclosure, > > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this informatio= n, even > if > > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and= will be > > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended reci= pient be > aware > > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the conten= ts of > this > > information, even if partially, including attached files, is st= rictly > > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must = reply to > the > > original sender to inform about this communication and delete i= t. > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > v6ops mailing list > > v6ops@ietf.org > > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************** > IPv4 is over > Are you ready for the new Internet ? > http://www.consulintel.es > The IPv6 Company >=20 > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use= of the > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized discl= osure, > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve= n if > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will = be > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient = be aware > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of = this > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply = to the > original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Fri Apr 27 07:01:31 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B97041200E5 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 07:01:29 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.6 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, UNPARSEABLE_RELAY=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id IFuzt7f6q0a7 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 07:01:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: from orange.com (mta239.mail.business.static.orange.com [80.12.66.39]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 500B41201F2 for ; Fri, 27 Apr 2018 07:01:26 -0700 (PDT) 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<2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12819@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <6EFCF64D-3D6E-4A05-BA29-EB18C13FF7B9@consulintel.es> <97D94545-B06B-46D7-8874-C7C2BE141745@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF128D1@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <18D5AA86-E01A-4D0B-BDDA-8760454C870C@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12930@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12A08@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <3ED28592-574A-4E76-AE01-F9861FE641BB@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12A5B@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: fr-FR, en-US Content-Language: fr-FR X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [10.168.234.2] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIME-Version: 1.0 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 27 Apr 2018 14:01:30 -0000 UmUtLA0KDQpQbGVhc2Ugc2VlIGlubGluZS4gDQoNCkNoZWVycywNCk1lZA0KDQo+IC0tLS0tTWVz c2FnZSBkJ29yaWdpbmUtLS0tLQ0KPiBEZcKgOiB2Nm9wcyBbbWFpbHRvOnY2b3BzLWJvdW5jZXNA aWV0Zi5vcmddIERlIGxhIHBhcnQgZGUgSk9SREkgUEFMRVQgTUFSVElORVoNCj4gRW52b3nDqcKg OiB2ZW5kcmVkaSAyNyBhdnJpbCAyMDE4IDE1OjU1DQo+IMOAwqA6IFY2IE9wcyBMaXN0DQo+IE9i amV0wqA6IFJlOiBbdjZvcHNdIGRyYWZ0LXBhbGV0LXY2b3BzLXRyYW5zaXRpb24taXB2NGFhcyBk aXNjdXNzaW9uDQo+IA0KPiBUeXBpY2FsbHksIHRoZSBOQVQ2NCB3aWxsIGJlIHRoZSBkZWZhdWx0 IEdXIC4uLiANCg0KW01lZF0gTm90IHN1cmUgdG8gdW5kZXJzdGFuZCB3aGF0IHlvdSBtZWFudC4g DQoNCkZXSVcsIGluIHRoZSBjb250ZXh0IG9mIGN1cnJlbnQgTkFUNjQgZGVwbG95bWVudHMgKG1v 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<152489986340.31589.9791332809961178037@ietfa.amsl.com> Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 00:17:43 -0700 Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 07:17:43 -0000 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF. Title : Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers to Support IPv4 Connectivity as-a-Service Authors : Jordi Palet Martinez Hans M.-H. Liu Masanobu Kawashima Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-00.txt Pages : 18 Date : 2018-04-28 Abstract: This document specifies the IPv4 service continuity requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router, either provided by the service provider or thru the retail market. Specifically, this document extends the "Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers" ([RFC7084]) in order to allow the provisioning of IPv6 transition services for the support of "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS) by means of new transition mechanisms, which were not available at the time [RFC7084] (Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers) was published. The document only covers transition technologies for delivering IPv4 in IPv6-only access networks, commonly called "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS), as required in a world where IPv4 addresses are no longer available, so hosts in the customer LANs with IPv4-only or IPv6-only applications or devices, requiring to communicate with IPv4-only services at the Internet, are still able to do so. This document updates section 4.4 (Transition Technologies Requirements) of [RFC7084]. The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/ There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-00 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ From nobody Sat Apr 28 00:33:42 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7C2A0126CF6 for ; Sat, 28 Apr 2018 00:33:41 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.999 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.999 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=consulintel.es Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id RSLAfFTV_rhV for ; Sat, 28 Apr 2018 00:33:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail.consulintel.es (mail.consulintel.es [IPv6:2001:470:1f09:495::5]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES128-SHA (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5585F12D87C for ; Sat, 28 Apr 2018 00:33:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple; d=consulintel.es; s=MDaemon; t=1524900816; x=1525505616; i=jordi.palet@consulintel.es; q=dns/txt; h=User-Agent:Date: Subject:From:To:Message-ID:Thread-Topic:References:In-Reply-To: Mime-version:Content-type:Content-transfer-encoding; bh=nVF8QcTm d2/6uAVjPX35aoEtemOGZy/I3JtcCwbXjNw=; b=p48mchjcdQJOKE7nr+a5adUr EKmTEFEXebhq8IkNj/cJtFVk5d6CNyvkIS16LN1k9ra5pgkl0lQEecBwxG8W1iuc eldI54Crc/gp/0E0BrYRi3zjSK5uFkOhWc3lzko/JYmRohrwek3BfZydczUrKvGG Xw0ayyacOLMO8ehylno= X-MDAV-Result: clean X-MDAV-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 28 Apr 2018 09:33:36 +0200 X-Spam-Processed: mail.consulintel.es, Sat, 28 Apr 2018 09:33:36 +0200 Received: from [10.10.10.129] by mail.consulintel.es (MDaemon PRO v16.5.2) with ESMTPA id md50005759844.msg for ; Sat, 28 Apr 2018 09:33:35 +0200 X-MDRemoteIP: 2001:470:1f09:495:ac74:e0dc:23bf:3ae5 X-MDHelo: [10.10.10.129] X-MDArrival-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 09:33:35 +0200 X-Authenticated-Sender: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Return-Path: prvs=1656ece4fe=jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-Envelope-From: jordi.palet@consulintel.es X-MDaemon-Deliver-To: v6ops@ietf.org User-Agent: Microsoft-MacOutlook/10.c.0.180410 Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 09:33:31 +0200 From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ To: Message-ID: <72F895AF-770E-4DFA-B81D-F4FA6D7B5078@consulintel.es> Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-00.txt References: <152489986340.31589.9791332809961178037@ietfa.amsl.com> In-Reply-To: <152489986340.31589.9791332809961178037@ietfa.amsl.com> Mime-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 07:33:41 -0000 Hi all, We have posted, with a new co-author, the -00 WG version of this document. https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/?inclu= de_text=3D1 This is a summary of the summary of the discussion in the list the last few= days and the changes we have done to the document: Summary of the changes: 1) Accepted most of the proposed changes by Med. 2) Accepted most of the proposed changes from Lee. 3) Accepted most of the proposed changes from Barbara. Some pending on here= answer to my last email. 4) Richard. Specific section on UPnP. Richard already provided the text. Ad= ded a "default". 5) Multicast. Barbara suggested text. 6) Included DS-Lite. 7) Included new section for updating RFC7084. 8) Moved Scenarios and Architecture as annexes to the end. 9) Added one MAY for RFC7618 to MAP-T and MAP-E, that I missed before ... (= it was there already for lw4o6). 10) As we have a SHOULD for PCP (in RFC7084), added SHOULD for IGD-PCP IWF.= Added support for DHCP options for PCP. As usual, inputs welcome! Regards, Jordi =20 =20 =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- De: v6ops en nombre de Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 28 de abril de 2018, 9:18 Para: CC: Asunto: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-00.txt =20 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire= ctories. This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF. =20 Title : Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers t= o Support IPv4 Connectivity as-a-Service Authors : Jordi Palet Martinez Hans M.-H. Liu Masanobu Kawashima Filename : draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-00.txt Pages : 18 Date : 2018-04-28 =20 Abstract: This document specifies the IPv4 service continuity requirements for an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router, either provided by the service provider or thru the retail market. =20 Specifically, this document extends the "Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers" ([RFC7084]) in order to allow the provisionin= g of IPv6 transition services for the support of "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS) by means of new transition mechanisms, which were not available at the time [RFC7084] (Basic Requirements for IPv6 Custome= r Edge Routers) was published. The document only covers transition technologies for delivering IPv4 in IPv6-only access networks, commonly called "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS), as required in a worl= d where IPv4 addresses are no longer available, so hosts in the customer LANs with IPv4-only or IPv6-only applications or devices, requiring to communicate with IPv4-only services at the Internet, ar= e still able to do so. =20 This document updates section 4.4 (Transition Technologies Requirements) of [RFC7084]. =20 =20 The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/ =20 There are also htmlized versions available at: https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-00 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4a= as-00 =20 =20 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi= ssion until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org. =20 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at: ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/ =20 _______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops =20 ********************************************** IPv4 is over Are you ready for the new Internet ? http://www.consulintel.es The IPv6 Company This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con= fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i= ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, = copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p= artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons= idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t= hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in= formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi= ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin= al sender to inform about this communication and delete it. From nobody Sat Apr 28 21:41:20 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 622CC126CD6 for ; Sat, 28 Apr 2018 21:41:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id ZX25N5Xjzev9 for ; Sat, 28 Apr 2018 21:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22a.google.com (mail-wm0-x22a.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22a]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 526801242F5 for ; Sat, 28 Apr 2018 21:41:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22a.google.com with SMTP id m70so7829822wma.2 for ; Sat, 28 Apr 2018 21:41:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:date:subject:message-id:to; bh=yL1xbW2RobbsHn2EZnFH5CgyI/tV94oTAAgkrD3Szzo=; b=YOp+UCVcBdASOb6EO5qcwJfVfVckzwq3q9p2yrh+ouTEq9cFr+wdloBq7hP8Gl5jhb 6Ky/wULPOUlBRVFkmBxG/2lk1QgpsReSthpp2Eka9CRvsJ7rpbAoBzU0wxNqda4r1AhG serv4MxtbG42dOE2AGyPI53tuZ4Tlm3/SVzNve0affe9JTAEgf+2DCUhdVOAXqWb4S4J re0jFpxAkZBGJbJkGZbNV7JfVBgvEY6oPNafhHpA7wDyeokg7z4PHCCgUBMfgJqqYjp6 8dPjsBXZstMhNOrStCUmrwqecRuZOXr/h5TLw04mim2quOtdOn9dMpE+HQWXig7/h/PO 1YYA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:date:subject:message-id:to; bh=yL1xbW2RobbsHn2EZnFH5CgyI/tV94oTAAgkrD3Szzo=; b=FDfBTIHmY+z6gy3F7TIPUMq/N8bLFdOmEo0c5ZPtCzOUFaVsA2h9IwFShuFgy+NhvS WwA/UEygy9WOjRm7K0iRvNYdu6q99q74GVqRhZ+WEo860mP1kn265nhtdOTNy35Lf1Qa E1yT8qwCRxkgU7zKF3xxLHuLcDNHxkFJkAuu138mSentfzwnvT7RbniKW+nYHvcnmx6p +Rcvr9bVZpZfvxCVFpTBVvu8+WxNiNMpiiAjQsu9W1WmbdAcPY6x4F5wgyNsTREaMIrj 3qhWJkSt2KHsReIy7xRL9HRO9Q39CYi949bZ49N18owMUlhybG/s7IbNlkLdmOqUlNUr VWUQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tA7jpUt93fM4xHa5f3ehdBZZo5h0QZiNzajavWFtglxNj9FfPvu G65y+6PJuoIcDNi9IFy4UY/cfVfN X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZqgdOFpGpGgRcRNT7SsmC1h4a6O+cXNAaVAm7hYmoNYDbZrZ9DrkEsuxquJPP1o+U9GdMTY+A== X-Received: by 2002:a50:9707:: with SMTP id c7-v6mr10719609edb.267.1524976874631; Sat, 28 Apr 2018 21:41:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8802:5600:1546::109c? ([2600:8802:5600:1546::109c]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id i8-v6sm2703716edj.3.2018.04.28.21.41.12 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 28 Apr 2018 21:41:13 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_93DC487D-EAF3-4A6B-9181-9BCCCC134785"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Sat, 28 Apr 2018 21:41:15 -0700 Message-Id: To: V6 Ops List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 04:41:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_93DC487D-EAF3-4A6B-9181-9BCCCC134785 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii At IETF 101, Fred Templin presented draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost. The = draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost, and = his presentation deck is at = https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-ipv6-p= refix-delegation-models-00. I would like to invite discussion. In the deck, he asks three questions: 1. Do we want to remain prefix delegation service agnostic, or focus on = one specific service (e.g., DHCPv6-PD)? 2. What do we call end systems that receive a prefix delegation? Host? = Router? Node? 3. Does the answer to 2. depend on the weak-host, strong-host = distinction? You are welcome, of course, to also raise any other questions or = concerns. --Apple-Mail=_93DC487D-EAF3-4A6B-9181-9BCCCC134785 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlrlTOsACgkQEhdRnd2G P+DadhAAt7zSJGFdYYn1GET9RqT4fWkhvTLnBO+iXiGVKicVQVCUVVfezkelDwIe CkXhUScN26lss2T1RISdKG/Dn8d3nPbbSBgPzCxpMA2bfPg6JLx91wu34CmIvqyu N/inNXuFbvwHeyshV1nTqLky7VDIXC3iUsd0ZXsHqN+mqr4cM2o7rd5QhbHlrDEV 0Xdht2KEjSkVbhUinlEkWHayiWBAMhdOBVF4jIAlCeXh7iA1y+CBZKI/LD19V0XS QiQ73fvGblSMgtIArnY7WZg89FP3gH17002hlQHGnhxAg4Hpsk8y+5isZ0OAqYcX 71akU2js2Kbq31yFKKQKDcc4K3iJv4I07MgaBI3IyJA7QEDkveaRJDQ6PozfiTmQ tiuPTU3wSGhEHyE1e8hV6WoCH7x7mSYBiXnx8TpMYYRe0aeU4wzwy4HIP+EwSwjU R/KWhvEAbXs+UMxu529SB1uVavXJaS/TRb1d9vO+eOWvmqHJ8cIMDa5cdAy/5KRv QHxwKFiFKMcJ+8/5HhUTkAZ6/uAkhd4O3Wns8VrEWUA9JYNvdH/J7gLCi0xQs+f1 bEWwP8SGIWOD4SB84nLQ5505zGu/7Yg8AYi5ic/1pqmJxgl1+x7aRnIQ2xsd+rln JZgIQDfgk3EBrlg2llHFo9OyGFV1RvKwfFfqh5z4Re0KJ19RGPA= =k78H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_93DC487D-EAF3-4A6B-9181-9BCCCC134785-- From nobody Sun Apr 29 00:25:53 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48BCF1200F1 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 00:25:51 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.633 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.633 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.001, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, NML_ADSP_CUSTOM_MED=0.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_SOFTFAIL=0.665] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Hn8BkuVQzrcg for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 00:25:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr (oxalide-smtp-out.extra.cea.fr [132.168.224.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id EC0CF126CE8 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 00:25:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (pisaure.intra.cea.fr [132.166.88.21]) by oxalide-sys.extra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3T7Pk7w059836 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:25:46 +0200 Received: from pisaure.intra.cea.fr (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by localhost (Postfix) with SMTP id 9C03C201598 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:25:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr (muguet2-smtp-out.intra.cea.fr [132.166.192.13]) by pisaure.intra.cea.fr (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92DEF200E2F for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:25:46 +0200 (CEST) Received: from [132.166.84.23] ([132.166.84.23]) by muguet2-sys.intra.cea.fr (8.14.7/8.14.7/CEAnet-Internet-out-4.0) with ESMTP id w3T7PkTZ003077 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:25:46 +0200 To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <6984_1524976902_5AE54D05_6984_6483_1_F6026D40-6C83-4143-AC75-4CFD4B92D604@gmail.com> From: Alexandre Petrescu Message-ID: <058a1f91-b39d-5e9c-8a67-717b5bfd78f5@gmail.com> Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 09:25:46 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <6984_1524976902_5AE54D05_6984_6483_1_F6026D40-6C83-4143-AC75-4CFD4B92D604@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Language: fr Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 07:25:51 -0000 Hi, Le 29/04/2018 à 06:41, Fred Baker a écrit : > At IETF 101, Fred Templin presented draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost. The draft is at https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost, and his presentation deck is at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/101/materials/slides-101-v6ops-ipv6-prefix-delegation-models-00. > > I would like to invite discussion. > > In the deck, he asks three questions: > 1. Do we want to remain prefix delegation service agnostic, or focus on one specific service (e.g., DHCPv6-PD)? No, we dont want to remain prefix delegation service agnostic. An IoT router connected on cellular network needs more than one /64 that the typical RA gives. > 2. What do we call end systems that receive a prefix delegation? Host? Router? Node? A Router. > 3. Does the answer to 2. depend on the weak-host, strong-host distinction? I am not clear with respect to weak-host / strong-host distinction. In linux one makes a host into a router by using a flag in the proc forwarding file. There is also a flag making a router to accept RAs. Because normally, only the Hosts accept RAs, not Routers. So there are these two flags for Host / Router distinction, but I am not sure there is a flag to make a weak-host or a strong-host. Alex > > You are welcome, of course, to also raise any other questions or concerns. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Sun Apr 29 17:09:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8B967126C0F for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:09:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id WcELucus0nIY for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x235.google.com (mail-wm0-x235.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::235]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94E6B120727 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x235.google.com with SMTP id o78so11619903wmg.0 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:09:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to:in-reply-to:message-id; bh=9xWn3Qpx8Zni8fLUSoQYOsrhOtHAmYZsqak6UmqJmvk=; b=NzFOH78FbEGfwMKIeXIzMComP7tLYupwLyXMkYB73Bvk2lyfNkmpipn1dVSQSymCn4 UdoO4NIdSSe6yw3Hd495Tvl5IwVV9oDkDHJk4GEpiPigff8JNhkeXeiCfXqwHKCfqzCZ aIKda8wsvDHtc93ff5XRB2470EH/VmeMVozMjirjWohEy1xvN7HVD5XlJtDDTolBvh4w 1RYs+a4YoY4QjmCy0xvHVQoqoCIfxawPXGxJ/ZLcvFvxM4nOfR/vwkr2CEG60+wn1oan gwjB1U5gS8/7kmAJIpmhO79/naOl0J0aeIh2g502q8XQhTKQBQckSZF5yX1g854jk7bV iVbQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:mime-version:subject:date:references:to :in-reply-to:message-id; bh=9xWn3Qpx8Zni8fLUSoQYOsrhOtHAmYZsqak6UmqJmvk=; b=IPGhBuOeXKdDHo/4JCp01j5oIDn2GuLZqDv5baxOLtGqhf6b1fiSxqtOF+Gu8M1J1T NfuV5Ff3sgUxNobBNAHzwWHl24Tp2A2FzZvxVnK8CEdMIdJX7hI5TXrpThoWSHkEXVeb rsmFdYuzG0n4JIakD9IXjd0Eq2W3qymYdFo0aqErGesoRj75gc9GsMhT6hyaJ0lBSiRs zN6xIrkA3hT0+cUsoNsfTiwA34HFDBNFjStjYwNWkmFRy77V8D3rLgXw72ZpgeiUU/9j 3He72UI4AtG2C6XzoiVNd8yf19q8UFWT0eXL+kj7yDSAG/ozrK9ss3w06V2GItS2CPxD ri6A== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tB2JW6MNf0PGzU0cptTZmOycSPQKFmO+toZVPJxSz54Kxvtk8Ox Y8eU0PsZC/KndYKE1seIo+TAUJ4a X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZp7w2u7V9hWmG9IeL01/fqutbOVhbnp9L7ANmIFlNVbeywJs5lm4pW+Q4AweHyP8oePOnHzbA== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d60f:: with SMTP id c15-v6mr14181382edr.301.1525046962751; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:09:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8802:5600:1546::10bb? ([2600:8802:5600:1546::10bb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id y7-v6sm3626341edq.8.2018.04.29.17.09.20 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:09:21 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_50931AF0-68D9-423B-8C5E-D152D6E79339"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:09:17 -0700 References: To: V6 Ops List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <4AFC3A31-4A5A-433A-B02E-A154BBE5A566@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 00:09:26 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_50931AF0-68D9-423B-8C5E-D152D6E79339 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Apr 28, 2018, at 9:41 PM, Fred Baker = wrote: > 3. Does the answer to 2. depend on the weak-host, strong-host = distinction? Speaking for myself, and hats off, I think the weak-host/strong-host = distinction isn't currently an accurate depiction of how hosts or = routers work in 2018, and isn't an obvious choice for a virtualized = system. I refer to RFC 1122, section 3.3.4.2, Multihoming Requirements, = which has to do with the choice of source address from a host with more = than one interface. The rules given are that (1) if the packet is being sent in response to = a packet received, it MUST use the destination address in that packet as = its source address, (2) it MUST be possible for the application to = specify the source address, and (3) if neither (1) nor (2) apply, the = communication layers below the application MUST (as in, "are forced to") = select a source address. As additional considerations, (A) a host MAY = discard a packet received on a physical interface other than that which = its destination address is used on, and (B) a host MAY restrict itself = to sending datagrams from the interface configured with whatever source = address it uses. The document then continues with "discussion", which to my thinking is = the most interesting part of RFC 1122, 1123, and 1812, which has to do = with "why". The "Weak ES model" and the "Strong ES model" are found in = that discussion, and are explicitly non-normative. In the Strong ES model, The Strong ES (End System, i.e., host) model emphasizes the host/gateway (ES/IS) distinction, and would therefore substitute MUST for MAY in issues (A) and (B) above. It tends to model a multihomed host as a set of logical hosts within the same physical host. In other words, (A) a host MUST discard a packet received on a physical = interface other than that which its destination address is used on, and = (B) a host MUST restrict itself to sending datagrams from the interface = configured with whatever source address it uses. Note that this model logically requires that in general there be at least one default gateway, and preferably multiple defaults, for each IP source address. The Weak ES Model de-emphasizes the ES/IS distinction, and would therefore substitute MUST NOT for MAY in issues (A) and (B). This model may be the more natural one for hosts that wiretap gateway routing protocols, and is necessary for hosts that have embedded gateway functionality. In other words, (A) a host MUST NOT discard a packet received on a = physical interface other than that which its destination address is used = on, and (B) a host MUST NOT restrict itself to sending datagrams from = the interface configured with whatever source address it uses. The question Fred is asking has to do with "end systems that receive a = prefix delegation", and whether we would call such a one a host, a = router, a node, or something else. =46rom my perspective, if a prefix is assigned to a chassis for use in = addressing its applications, containers, virtual hosts, or whatever, it = is not assigned to an interface per se. It is best thought of as having = been assigned to a network that in some sense lies "behind" a router, = comparable to having been assigned to a home or other network through = the CPE that connects to the upstream network. So any discussion of the = prefix being "on an interface" isn't visible to that upstream network. = There is an address there, of course, which may be only a link-local = address, and in the upstream router is primarily used as the next hop in = the route toward the prefix in question. Whether it as available for = network management purposes is not specified; if it is a global address, = it might be used for network management purposes, and if it is = link-local, the network management application would have to be on the = same LAN for that to work. I would expect, rather, that network = management is done via some application in the same chassis, perhaps in = a container or virtual host. Yes, that address would be used in network = management messages on the interface in question; if the chassis had = multiple physical interfaces, it might also be used on them. In other words, the weak and strong ES models are inadequate to describe = a chassis allocated a prefix. It is a case not discussed in = currently-published RFCs. What do we call such a chassis? I call it a chassis. It would be valid = to call it a node, although from a networking perspective it contains = multiple virtualized nodes. It is not, in my view, exactly a host (a = system with an address on one or more interfaces and responding only = packets sent to one of those addresses), nor is it exactly a router (a = system that receives messages sent to an address not configured on one = of its interfaces and forwarding it toward another system, the indicated = host); it is a third category. That category is a set of systems that = contain one or more identifiable routers and MAY contain one or more = identifiable hosts, in some virtualized sense. --Apple-Mail=_50931AF0-68D9-423B-8C5E-D152D6E79339 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlrmXq0ACgkQEhdRnd2G P+DZtBAAgKNTG/Vleppj2gnUpivwi6XCv0fpgfqfobk4tWDTytDEL0WqGaHxkc+I BsgGoUacV7DJqOlkMVL3Hdp54piUxuj1fguZ0ryvWURBZZEMQcSuXcGKg+ZdPsQj 6MXP0Rl53DcWA5J5TSEm/GHPIULHSq1ZyrYSApOOXPoIq484NotFfivEW4Wo4nvG +wO2dzuCeMPrKoY71ovA7l2aUySnIanD4xNSqyZX/ZD9N7QWG6lCnHHXeB0So4/X K2KssN2xN/3v53AeZTEkrupgmX+6fqQGiGkP3P1naNOMI/uIu7GbPM/2tmHep/iw uttrakUZ62SImDXmNGcHnk5d5RDuLQrjJoVcTPFG9H1EuQCRk9n39KyFyBOKDC+l LymcxnJpNoNB1TNQLJJY3gM6FQijy/NaTxpRpC8oAWUDKfAQ0QqelnskhbsjJ1Jf b3SntSAAh+V6w0FfNPUadC1s70bVTZKLZqnUxp663ZrZakUHsXOKFtPP2FgXsfZr 2po9MgwM0fWVtOoyYPncQ8JnvKzclXTabC2v+tQWx+H3G+BVgETf36XAHTb8FUNV bcQ2xkrFQyocep2L3twawsirZ/4/mWnjFzsdmuqNdeaCRLlaGB3XzQ591deG1+eY XBYx3XWEDiqRC/8gyTgHr890HRZl7vh1/8Y9pEAzVWcfkFPZubE= =dTJ+ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_50931AF0-68D9-423B-8C5E-D152D6E79339-- From nobody Sun Apr 29 17:18:15 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 92E97127869 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:18:13 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.7 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id yBwMMBQvJNsj for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22d.google.com (mail-wm0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8312A120727 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:18:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id o78so11635809wmg.0 for ; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:18:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=KopxwF+Ss8o4rg3p29uNsbmtsKU4eTYhkCFU2DuwdZ8=; b=OsQmRsylEXBWbUA6NUpNqdVpS7U9a3DfMBWMTYeh6qlo9wu+s+dNgQMKLh4KUZCbvx W7V0cbA6Mv/zHagdj1Ld7TXqugOVR3oYYWt+ywnOFYa+Ue+8SGu2iJOVC+Eejdf4eP3O jJTy0VUMZ4+cZdEkcUFgfAMItd8ImRBXXtDvf1VIzIgRQtUfCThVRFTE2Keujqh2Mx3E 2NEXJOo1DPj1My46h9KOuApKG6PWXuYJaNOjD1fNO6MyDf5PMUOy8q6EIzACiYDH1tKi k1LNKThNXqw3r89+7fl1N34OTQLQarKB891ktILuwmk48jvoX03PcVPHcmU/3uiR1O28 VmNw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=KopxwF+Ss8o4rg3p29uNsbmtsKU4eTYhkCFU2DuwdZ8=; b=LaowNS3gsqWatCS5oNlv8QITUbKrqYDJ1INRWnLgSBQqx00hb2cgLHIkVYJo1cG8ER 9Lt5QCbrP/veVCYRfUp+82BLyJCysAbyudm0xXGfj8LnNEPG6pzZp3/HX5ECDpWGAqHl 9dto6HWUBWxHXO3ROrH+9AZepBcKt5GBg5enOLEL1qjKIgMpf3W81qECQbZoix7iZr0P FJ07w+VV5YKUhFGtMhLkr2FkiXtUiRoYlwQXy1V6DmYA6fYWfbG1rQrXptzWe+ljtp7F op5cswim38dU8HffSq2TyR5rFwBSyC2u+7tu5M3pz2AiVO0MM2puDxvXki0GYmFyBue/ EAbw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tB8SCwc206JT5OD3xTWgSOBRAexsL5INRM9MY36ogPMWHqgEUQI iHlCVNN3haD8prk4TfZBwClklDMB X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZq8nBZGdTa/DcyjFeAuR5SQ8keo9+Txr771ZDIWCQngvmbImQQ3lG+ZpIK8tzfEeWKgKbSOug== X-Received: by 2002:a50:a45d:: with SMTP id v29-v6mr14132536edb.92.1525047490104; Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:18:10 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?IPv6:2600:8802:5600:1546::10bb? ([2600:8802:5600:1546::10bb]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l1-v6sm3602148edi.54.2018.04.29.17.18.08 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:18:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FF11D625-49A9-4A13-8F40-47B02766EB13"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Sun, 29 Apr 2018 17:18:05 -0700 In-Reply-To: <058a1f91-b39d-5e9c-8a67-717b5bfd78f5@gmail.com> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org To: Alexandre Petrescu References: <6984_1524976902_5AE54D05_6984_6483_1_F6026D40-6C83-4143-AC75-4CFD4B92D604@gmail.com> <058a1f91-b39d-5e9c-8a67-717b5bfd78f5@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 00:18:14 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FF11D625-49A9-4A13-8F40-47B02766EB13 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii No hats. On Apr 29, 2018, at 12:25 AM, Alexandre Petrescu = wrote: >> 1. Do we want to remain prefix delegation service agnostic, or focus = on one specific service (e.g., DHCPv6-PD)? >=20 > No, we dont want to remain prefix delegation service agnostic. An IoT = router connected on cellular network needs more than one /64 that the = typical RA gives. I have a different perspective. An RA tells its receiver that "on this = interface" it should use a stated prefix. A router, almost by = definition, has more than one interface; even a one-armed router knows = to accept a packet on some virtual interface and forward it to another. = An IoT device presumably receives either a configuration command (could = be YANG/Netconf) specifying the addresses used on its various = interfaces, or it receives an RA on at least one of them. Calling it an = "IoT Router" specifies its functionality; it will forward a message = received on one interface to another. I would expect a device that has a = LAN interface (such as 802.11 or 802.15.4) to receive its LAN prefix on = that interface, and if it also has a cellular interface, to receive a = prefix or address on that one. In saying that, I have betrayed that I also am not tied to DHCP-PD. I = see no reason to arbitrarily preclude the use of other network = management tools such as YANG/Netconf, nor for that matter to preclude = some form of manual configuration (although I would necessarily = recommend it, either). I'm quite happy to specify the use of DHCP-PD for = networks that choose to use it, but I think saying that it is the ONLY = way the job can be done is too prescriptive. --Apple-Mail=_FF11D625-49A9-4A13-8F40-47B02766EB13 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlrmYL0ACgkQEhdRnd2G P+C4ZhAApgJErVWmxPASQu9RVQu2wKqcuRtN9abhwlEIbNkcGcgiZHvX0J1R/NgJ gmTF99QK1/1jbnFo1rawmsBYLBlW73akqDqTB1Ni2esLL8WS7kjnUdIDUFDfUMtU 94JpJv5xnKD8Hitd8osIps35v4+S0wbUs6TBaOHMuZFz+NLLHK2RYLKafZsFQrkY x1zGpCk987VDYQtIE/vgfuq/COPXhirp81cQEJayS989cJqAgMtK8stCQiUXSZoQ ihRjBkMZVuK8/ZOI2kvKCHf9Toqqr5PXqwueSLUmrFCfeeE9Pb5Ac6KVO+V74IWx 0IqG1UzQGSioi0xTxT9WYHHjoTfIgyCBcAT8cg56y2DcmP00eRiR7oP1m06YxPG3 /7BDVTxq7Q1FFIVDQpdXVz5OmToJfySFhRIf8ITbhGqZHB9s5L0/GcGrTSGKwxau sl7/VqgPzIIG4FdQOZ7DO0P+MLmVtHRzAnehVD7Yi013THdSWuzrEOvsQs8y9H7C z6mQXB6edV3MKovy3vF5TsjcZLg7CddEBPwmascZ+NUT9dAy6K/GvkVn8PNtcSNS t8sN0gTdvu9AOzgZ4zLrFE2MGtBu1K99/XYEvM9glCcMgS7wAN/V3Dt7Q3cdr9hV 9ur+zUegdSaVPwS9lDdgXTE68hBWgW1u/s6nXYSi+gSpZyVQu/c= =i5L/ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_FF11D625-49A9-4A13-8F40-47B02766EB13-- From nobody Mon Apr 30 00:18:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 653DC126CD8 for ; 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Intel Mac OS X 10.13; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <694A1FF1-CA8C-42CC-87F3-789EA71807AE@employees.org> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="daZLHkhzffuN6X3yrTDZ72K6ehfWTd2m6" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 07:18:50 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --daZLHkhzffuN6X3yrTDZ72K6ehfWTd2m6 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="h4u3pWoA9uc7HuLrX3BHTamzugXbqpXOV"; protected-headers="v1" From: joel jaeggli To: Ole Troan , V6 Ops List Message-ID: <89fe7fb6-4618-7e92-691b-8639af9c2747@bogus.com> Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <694A1FF1-CA8C-42CC-87F3-789EA71807AE@employees.org> In-Reply-To: <694A1FF1-CA8C-42CC-87F3-789EA71807AE@employees.org> --h4u3pWoA9uc7HuLrX3BHTamzugXbqpXOV Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 4/26/18 23:34, Ole Troan wrote: >=20 >> As you are on it, and given the IETF recommendation in RFC6888: >> >> REQ-9: A CGN MUST implement a protocol giving subscribers explicit >> control over NAT mappings. That protocol SHOULD be the Port >> Control Protocol [RFC6887]. >> >> which would apply also to the PLAT, I suggest you add an item in the 4= 64lat section to support RFC6970. >=20 > I think that requirement needs to be reality checked. > Has any of the operators of CGNs deployed PCP? Would they allow custome= rs to control NAT mappings at all? Or would that just be a different subs= cription plan? > For the other IPv4aaS mechanisms it isn't even an option... >=20 > From my perspective PCP from customers to control CGNs is not going to = be deployed. I'd be happy to hear otherwise. Accumulating state in the form of instructions from customers for of durable port bindings is expensive forwarding state to accumulate, It is also expensive in the form of control-plane signalling. both of these are DOS risks. I would think that they have similar shortcomings respecting state as for example do multicast shared trees and would likewise be viewed as an undesirable cost. Joel > Ole >=20 >> >> Cheers, >> Med >> >>> -----Message d'origine----- >>> De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PALET = MARTINEZ >>> Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 26 avril 2018 21:41 >>> =C3=80 : V6 Ops List >>> Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >>> >>> Hi Richard, >>> >>> As I've moved sections 3 & 4 to the end of the document as annexes, I= 've >>> added a new small section for UPnP with your text. I think this also = helps to >>> clarify one of the issues raised by Lee. >>> >>> I'm working on all this changes with my co-authors, and if we are goo= d with >>> them, we probably will submit the new version in a couple of days or = so. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> >>> Regards, >>> Jordi >>> >>> >>> =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original----- >>> De: v6ops en nombre de Richard Patterson >>> >>> Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 25 de abril de 2018, 11:16 >>> Para: V6 Ops List >>> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion >>> >>> Section 4 only briefly touches on UPnP, I'd like to propose that w= e >>> make a recommendation around its behaviour if it is enabled. >>> >>> UPnP MAY be enabled on the IPv6 transition CE, for stateless >>> mechanisms that forward unsolicited inbound packets through to the= CE. >>> If UPnP is enabled, the agent MUST reject any port mapping request= s >>> for ports outside of the range(s) allocated to the IPv6 transition= CE. >>> >>> UPnP SHOULD be disabled for stateful mechanisms that do not forwar= d >>> unsolicited inbound packets to the CE, unless implemented in >>> conjunction with a method to control the external port mapping, su= ch >>> as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970]. >>> >>> -Richard >>> >>> >>> On 25 April 2018 at 01:38, Fred Baker w= rote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Apr 24, 2018, at 12:13 PM, STARK, BARBARA H wro= te: >>>>> >>>>> But that doesn't mean I believe the draft has exactly the right set= of >>> features included. My understanding of "adoption" is that it is still= >>> possible post-adoption to discuss whether specific features / require= ments do >>> or don't belong. If the precise set of features and requirements must= be >>> agreed upon prior to adoption, then I would not be in support of adop= tion. >>> Hopefully we aren't setting the bar that high? >>>> >>>> I understand "adoption as a working group draft" to mean that the >>> working group has agreed to work on the draft. There are some working= groups >>> that seem to confuse "adoption as a work group draft" with "agreement= to send >>> it to the IESG"; I don't, but expect conversation in between those tw= o >>> events. >>>> >>>> That said, I'd like to believe that the draft is pretty close, and t= hat >>> changes that need to be made to it will have text offered by the peop= le that >>> want them. So - keep your cards and letters coming... >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> v6ops mailing list >>>> v6ops@ietf.org >>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ********************************************** >>> IPv4 is over >>> Are you ready for the new Internet ? >>> http://www.consulintel.es >>> The IPv6 Company >>> >>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged = or >>> confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use= of the >>> individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized discl= osure, >>> copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve= n if >>> partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will = be >>> considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient = be aware >>> that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of = this >>> information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly= >>> prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply = to the >>> original sender to inform about this communication and delete it. >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> v6ops mailing list >>> v6ops@ietf.org >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >> _______________________________________________ >> v6ops mailing list >> v6ops@ietf.org >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops >=20 --h4u3pWoA9uc7HuLrX3BHTamzugXbqpXOV-- --daZLHkhzffuN6X3yrTDZ72K6ehfWTd2m6 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - http://gpgtools.org iF0EARECAB0WIQRcbgEEuvBAsFvTw4vwADWrtn9WsgUCWuZBMAAKCRDwADWrtn9W sgxsAJ91L7/8CGkC3Na+eY4PLG4fZhkyRwCfahC2akYu8qgESOWVXe7O7cafoDc= =rkrr -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --daZLHkhzffuN6X3yrTDZ72K6ehfWTd2m6-- From nobody Mon Apr 30 01:58:52 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 08E9E126D3F for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 01:58:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.611 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.611 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_DKIMWL_WL_MED=-0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=helix-net-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id hfYjdEorUYmy for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 01:58:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-it0-x236.google.com (mail-it0-x236.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4001:c0b::236]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DB276126CC4 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 01:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-it0-x236.google.com with SMTP id e20-v6so8739157itc.1 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 01:58:47 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=helix-net-nz.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-transfer-encoding; bh=hCAvDYzOr4nHRBPkJt7M7/wxG9Y0toX1D9q0jM/BTNY=; b=QuOsxZcfSqDkpz6Bf9IhKc2RHU94Q9YZ/RcjPUQuPG9rViuhuKlY9A/aWMsH6Zs6V6 W0MmWbNO7VTagstcC0k/vmG3nZxfIIBwdfGUl27k5h7JuNR1qWEIuIhcs7NHCJkbAqzY ekqOMxtjT4+44w8FKjPE/Wi6i0MxRHmUrupwaADxpYzB89A8dBU6heSuLId5DWfux0sl H8/nzUGwUJYKabMTg20gNHQCsDakX7yxi9N18Ks39RSD3Bxr0VWU40s7UT6219TN80a4 GRXNlblBGe0W/Gt3X4SbX8rfu2jocjfAJ+Odvn4xZjxRjhknqypMK7XBzS7HYx2/+Vsv X1pg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:content-transfer-encoding; bh=hCAvDYzOr4nHRBPkJt7M7/wxG9Y0toX1D9q0jM/BTNY=; b=ehK9CfVyE8US/XwAaLj/uKug7Zn+AKP9sR+5Bh4AYxDqdsxmm+WmLhQFR0LdjKE+hU zQCUd1fIFXDx9h1B69I3a/XAipUB7DyNYWgDFILIFOw769T+94ygzLPReMp4oIxGnomH 8A+JG87+Eqe0UTW1yWLyitE90ajhOHMGDJXPzRhgB5NqBfochZ+JYi9d04BlgPd+nBk0 YWDMQoaWhwU6PK+06KvUjaaEsPKSyg96Cj9wS+DODdqveCZZVGiV+h7RHEHLHObKVPgV CpMB5yzFSu9vjhfao48OUZAgIq8v11mjOzUG/56Lfc62MDZyrbyd+NWQyoxCPYt6sSug G3GQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tAKzxflqIRHl2Jg3Db2aFWMQJS/Q6PFiCBRGsHEt9g3oKpew5OQ vdfKaithOVezj1Xzo1bwuymVupwv X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZqYNiyy99VhXo9qOjDrtH08ozNPoIz/i/DYz7oyBMXcOr0RIh8AXaKWR57VcwOK8DTImQGbQA== X-Received: by 2002:a24:1995:: with SMTP id b143-v6mr4262121itb.84.1525078726690; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 01:58:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-io0-f179.google.com (mail-io0-f179.google.com. [209.85.223.179]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e15-v6sm3104858ioc.54.2018.04.30.01.58.45 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 30 Apr 2018 01:58:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-io0-f179.google.com with SMTP id d73-v6so9422356iog.3 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 01:58:45 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a6b:30cd:: with SMTP id w196-v6mr11160822iow.183.1525078725719; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 01:58:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <3A083AA8-41D3-4BF8-BE31-5071975B6F98@gmail.com> <52D64464-A1BB-4FFA-AA79-28B8953E3B93@gmail.com> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD7F981@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF126EC@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <694A1FF1-CA8C-42CC-87F3-789EA71807AE@employees.org> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12849@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF12AC0@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> In-Reply-To: From: Richard Patterson Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 08:58:35 +0000 X-Gmail-Original-Message-ID: Message-ID: To: "v6ops@ietf.org list" Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas discussion X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 08:58:50 -0000 I'd like to reword the UPnP section to shift the focus a bit. The content is largely the same, but it should now highlight that UPnP SHOULD be disabled when implementing an IPv4aaS mechanism, with exceptions for the stateless methods, and when configured with an address sharing ratio of 1. I also received some off-list comments about how the CE landscape hasn't really changed and embraced the IGD:2 specs yet. This is unfortunate as it means they also lack the AddPinhole() function to manipulate the native IPv6 firewall, although that's off topic for this draft. So with that in mind, and following on from Med's comments, I'd like to also add a SHOULD support the IGD:2 specs, if a CE chooses to implement UPnP. New proposed wording for =C2=A75: """ 5. UPnP Support (Removed "IGD-PCP IWF") UPnP SHOULD be disabled by default on the CE Router when using an IPv4aaS transition mechanism. UPnP MAY be enabled when a CE is configured to use a stateless IPv4aaS mechanism that allows unsolicited inbound packets through to the CE, such as MAP or LW4o6, or when configured with a port set containing all 65535 ports, e.g. with an IPv4 address sharing ratio of 1. If UPnP is enabled on a CE, the UPnP agent MUST reject any port mapping requests for ports outside of the port set allocated to the CE Router. UPnP MAY also be enabled on a CE configured for IPv4aaS mechanisms that support PCP [RFC6887], if implemented in conjunction with a method to control the external port mapping, such as IGD-PCP IWF [RFC6970]. A CE that implements a UPnP agent, SHOULD support the Open Connectivity Foundation's IGD:2 specification, including the AddAnyPortMapping() function. """ On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 at 13:46, Richard Patterson wrote: > On Fri, 27 Apr 2018 at 13:03, wrote: > > I know some applications are still using IGD:1, but I hope they will move > to the IGD:2. > When I was testing this nearly 4 years ago, I struggled to find CPEs with > IGD:2 support. Hopefully the landscape has changed now that IGD:1 has been > deprecated. > But then as you say, we still need the applications to update their > behaviour and adopt the looser AddAnyPortMapping() instead of the more > specific AddPortMapping() > I'd be more confident in RFC6970 as a useful mitigation then. > -Rich From nobody Mon Apr 30 09:03:07 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 677FC12DB6E for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 09:03:05 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id KeEZy61sUCpQ for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 09:03:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server217-3.web-hosting.com (server217-3.web-hosting.com [198.54.115.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 90AE21241F5 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 09:03:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc: To:From:Date:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=MVQbNb0DoVUwLzOf+jnLb/6uC0BU3qgaea4CDegDKhE=; b=rCJu6LDuyKcJe/1L17GOYmG37 QAA6huWjXTcsLaadPpeIfP9TroBpBSwzPgfY4B9c9wj0im/tcGQBpM7njfHVkFKHdenrpNqD5i1nB fUjsGusssJhT7jCGEVfWCJYUiOdzeHM8EWF1aTMA5pYtUqQx6m3lnrQPB2K/BK0cPs5KjwFW49caP yAe2OCayA/zARNebYqJEg0RD9/LpMfeVPnppx6jLpSO/Puc14Cj7twlU/xN1oEw7UiHuQhN7rgLd+ ehwS+jm84eswz0KowVlEB6VUEZJcne/BqtlIdPLi7GdVBNizgnZ5CDC57WlZ85994o9gwNmQ0iQJP 7+6qsPOLg==; Received: from [::1] (port=39920 helo=webmail.strayalpha.com) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.89_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fDBGY-001AFQ-0M; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:03:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_79408e8a16e5066489ce7f431aa2016d" Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 12:03:01 -0400 From: Joe Touch To: Fred Baker Cc: V6 Ops List In-Reply-To: <4AFC3A31-4A5A-433A-B02E-A154BBE5A566@gmail.com> References: <4AFC3A31-4A5A-433A-B02E-A154BBE5A566@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4bdf9f83e75ab30384ae32774b63d2a5@strayalpha.com> X-Sender: touch@strayalpha.com User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.2.7 X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:03:05 -0000 --=_79408e8a16e5066489ce7f431aa2016d Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 2018-04-29 20:09, Fred Baker wrote: > On Apr 28, 2018, at 9:41 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > >> 3. Does the answer to 2. depend on the weak-host, strong-host distinction? > > Speaking for myself, and hats off, I think the weak-host/strong-host distinction isn't currently an accurate depiction of how hosts or routers work in 2018, and isn't an obvious choice for a virtualized system. I refer to RFC 1122, section 3.3.4.2, Multihoming Requirements, which has to do with the choice of source address from a host with more than one interface. IMO, Internet nodes are inherently weak-host at the IP layer and strong-host at the link layer. The weak-host part is validated, as you note, by RFC 1122. The strong-host part is validate, AFAICT, by ARP and neighbor discovery. Although there can be addresses assigned to a "node" rather than an interface, the distinction is philosophical at best; as you point out, all addresses are effectively virtual interfaces anyway - and those interfaces are defined in the context of the network over which they reach other interfaces. Joe --=_79408e8a16e5066489ce7f431aa2016d Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8

On 2018-04-29 20:09, Fred Baker wrote:

= On Apr 28, 2018, at 9:41 PM, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
3. Does the answer to 2. depend on the weak-host, stro= ng-host distinction?

Speaking for myself, and hats off, I think the weak-host/strong-host= distinction isn't currently an accurate depiction of how hosts or routers = work in 2018, and isn't an obvious choice for a virtualized system. I refer= to RFC 1122, section 3.3.4.2,  Multihoming Requirements, which has to= do with the choice of source address from a host with more than one interf= ace.
=  
= IMO, Internet nodes are inherently weak-host at the IP layer and strong-hos= t at the link layer.
=  
= The weak-host part is validated, as you note, by RFC 1122.
=  
= The strong-host part is validate, AFAICT, by ARP and neighbor discovery.
=  
= Although there can be addresses assigned to a "node" rather than an interfa= ce, the distinction is philosophical at best; as you point out, all address= es are effectively virtual interfaces anyway - and those interfaces are def= ined in the context of the network over which they reach other interfaces= =2E
=  
= Joe
--=_79408e8a16e5066489ce7f431aa2016d-- From nobody Mon Apr 30 10:19:59 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 25F2612D893 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:19:58 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.601 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.601 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 8ohwuuzrSm5T for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com (mx0a-00191d01.pphosted.com [67.231.149.140]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7B3C61201F8 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 10:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from pps.filterd (m0048589.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by m0048589.ppops.net-00191d01. (8.16.0.21/8.16.0.21) with SMTP id w3UHIXIv047078 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:19:56 -0400 Received: from alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (sbcsmtp6.sbc.com [144.160.229.23]) by m0048589.ppops.net-00191d01. with ESMTP id 2hp7e4r11m-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=NOT) for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:19:55 -0400 Received: from enaf.aldc.att.com (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3UHJspg019280 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:19:54 -0400 Received: from zlp30484.vci.att.com (zlp30484.vci.att.com [135.47.91.179]) by alpi154.enaf.aldc.att.com (8.14.5/8.14.5) with ESMTP id w3UHJnPg019134 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:19:50 -0400 Received: from zlp30484.vci.att.com (zlp30484.vci.att.com [127.0.0.1]) by zlp30484.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTP id 39BAC4000361 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 17:19:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGHUBAD.ITServices.sbc.com (unknown [130.8.218.153]) by zlp30484.vci.att.com (Service) with ESMTPS id 1D92D4000365 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 17:19:49 +0000 (GMT) Received: from GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com ([169.254.5.170]) by GAALPA1MSGHUBAD.ITServices.sbc.com ([130.8.218.153]) with mapi id 14.03.0389.001; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:19:48 -0400 From: "STARK, BARBARA H" To: V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-00.txt Thread-Index: AdPgpBfdtiOiEU3QR0GIxefet5EQXw== Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 17:19:47 +0000 Message-ID: <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DD850C2@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-originating-ip: [130.10.92.133] Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=fsecure engine=2.50.10434:, , definitions=2018-04-30_07:, , signatures=0 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=outbound_policy_notspam policy=outbound_policy score=0 priorityscore=1501 malwarescore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 clxscore=1011 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxscore=0 impostorscore=0 mlxlogscore=253 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1804300166 Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-00.txt X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 17:19:58 -0000 Hi Jordi, I was having a hard time understanding where you were headed with proposed = changes, by following the email thread. So I was waiting for this update. M= y company's email server also refuses to deliver to me some emails sent to = this list without telling me. That probably adds to my difficulty. My suggestion related to making requirements "MUST" were tied to also *not*= making this an update to RFC 7084. Here is the problem: If this is an update to RFC 7084, then I cannot support any "MUST" statemen= ts. My employer makes use of RFC 7084. As is. Updating RFC 7084 with additional= "MUST" statements impacts my employer's ability to use and reference RFC 7= 084 to get the CE routers it wants. An RFC 7084 update with "MUST" statemen= ts (that are not needed by many current deployments) would be harmful to th= e existing IPv6 ecosystem. For a device profile to be usable by the vendor and ISP community, it must = contain "MUST" statements for all items that need to be required to achieve= the profile's goal. Trying to get vendors to implement lots of "SHOULD" st= atements is futile. As an individual contributor, I do not support IETF pub= lishing a futile device profile document with many "SHOULD" statements. The solution I have proposed is to create a brand new device profile. A dev= ice profile for something called an "IPv6 Transition CE Router". This devic= e profile is not an update to RFC 7084. It is its own thing. It is free to = make use of RFC 7084 any way it wants -- not at all, in whole, or by refere= ncing sections it does or doesn't want to require as part of the "IPv6 Tran= sition CE Router" device profile. Barbara From nobody Mon Apr 30 13:06:24 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 71F8512708C for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:06:22 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id XfgI5kp6B6Ox for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net [130.76.184.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 7A8741200B9 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/DOWNSTREAM_MBSOUT) with SMTP id w3UK6IDq046593; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:06:19 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (xch15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com [137.136.238.222]) by phx-mbsout-01.mbs.boeing.net (8.14.4/8.14.4/UPSTREAM_MBSOUT) with ESMTP id w3UK6DgY046458 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:06:13 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com (2002:8988:eede::8988:eede) with Microsoft SMTP Server (TLS) id 15.0.1365.1; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:06:12 -0700 Received: from XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) by XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com ([137.136.238.222]) with mapi id 15.00.1365.000; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:06:12 -0700 From: "Templin (US), Fred L" To: Joe Touch , Fred Baker CC: V6 Ops List Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 Thread-Index: AQHT4J1ZJK3t2BQy2EuQsI2p75WazKQZukpw Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 20:06:12 +0000 Message-ID: <279dd3a9d8f748a1afe22924ba980e9b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <4AFC3A31-4A5A-433A-B02E-A154BBE5A566@gmail.com> <4bdf9f83e75ab30384ae32774b63d2a5@strayalpha.com> In-Reply-To: <4bdf9f83e75ab30384ae32774b63d2a5@strayalpha.com> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-exchange-transport-fromentityheader: Hosted x-originating-ip: [137.136.248.6] Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_000_279dd3a9d8f748a1afe22924ba980e9bXCH150608nwnosboeingcom_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-TM-AS-MML: disable Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 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v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 48BB2127735 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:16:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id YQZd0JEhFalz for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from accordion.employees.org (accordion.employees.org [IPv6:2607:7c80:54:3::74]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher AECDH-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CEF6812708C for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:16:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.211.100.153] (unknown [94.127.55.205]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by accordion.employees.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E8BDF2D51EE; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 20:16:27 +0000 (UTC) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-C8ABAB87-F6D7-440D-A4F8-4E92DE005894 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Ole Troan X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15E302) In-Reply-To: <279dd3a9d8f748a1afe22924ba980e9b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 22:16:25 +0200 Cc: Joe Touch , Fred Baker , V6 Ops List Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: <4AFC3A31-4A5A-433A-B02E-A154BBE5A566@gmail.com> <4bdf9f83e75ab30384ae32774b63d2a5@strayalpha.com> <279dd3a9d8f748a1afe22924ba980e9b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> To: "Templin (US), Fred L" Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 20:16:32 -0000 --Apple-Mail-C8ABAB87-F6D7-440D-A4F8-4E92DE005894 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Fred, Yes. IPv6 addresses are assigned to interfaces.=20 Cheers, Ole > On 30 Apr 2018, at 22:06, Templin (US), Fred L = wrote: >=20 > Hi Joe/Fred, > =20 > A comment on one point that was made: > =20 > >Although there can be addresses assigned to a "node" rather than an inter= face, > =20 > I always understood that addresses were assigned to an interface, > even if only a loopback or other internal virtual interface. An > address (or prefix) can be delegated to the node, but until the > node assigns the addresses to an interface they are unreachable. > And, if the node receives packets with destination addresses that > are unassigned it can either send a Destination Unreachable, or > just let it black hole. Do I have this right? > =20 > Thanks - Fred > =20 > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch > Sent: Monday, April 30, 2018 9:03 AM > To: Fred Baker > Cc: V6 Ops List > Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 > =20 > On 2018-04-29 20:09, Fred Baker wrote: >=20 > On Apr 28, 2018, at 9:41 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > 3. Does the answer to 2. depend on the weak-host, strong-host distinction?= >=20 > Speaking for myself, and hats off, I think the weak-host/strong-host disti= nction isn't currently an accurate depiction of how hosts or routers work in= 2018, and isn't an obvious choice for a virtualized system. I refer to RFC 1= 122, section 3.3.4.2, Multihoming Requirements, which has to do with the ch= oice of source address from a host with more than one interface. > =20 > IMO, Internet nodes are inherently weak-host at the IP layer and strong-ho= st at the link layer. > =20 > The weak-host part is validated, as you note, by RFC 1122. > =20 > The strong-host part is validate, AFAICT, by ARP and neighbor discovery. > =20 > Although there can be addresses assigned to a "node" rather than an interf= ace, the distinction is philosophical at best; as you point out, all address= es are effectively virtual interfaces anyway - and those interfaces are defi= ned in the context of the network over which they reach other interfaces. > =20 > Joe > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --Apple-Mail-C8ABAB87-F6D7-440D-A4F8-4E92DE005894 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Fred,

<= div>Yes. IPv6 addresses are assigned to interfaces. 

Cheers,
Ole

On 30 Apr 2018, at 22:06, Templin= (US), Fred L <Fred.L.Templi= n@boeing.com> wrote:

Hi Joe/Fred,

 

A comment on one point that was made:

 

>Although there can be addresses assigned to a "node" rat= her than an interface,

 

I always understood that addresses were assign= ed to an interface,

even if only a loopback or other internal virt= ual interface. An

address (or prefix) can be delegated to the no= de, but until the

node assigns the addresses to an interface the= y are unreachable.

And, if the node receives packets with destina= tion addresses that

are unassigned it can either send a Destinatio= n Unreachable, or

just let it black hole. Do I have this right?<= o:p>

 

Thanks - Fred

 

From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2018 9:03 AM
To: Fred Baker <fredba= ker.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: V6 Ops List <v6ops@ietf.org<= /a>>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 1= 01

 

On 2018-04-29 20:09, Fred Baker wrote:

On Apr 28, 2018, at 9:41 PM, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:

3. Does the answer to 2. depend on the weak-host, strong-hos= t distinction?


Speaking for myself, and hats off, I think the weak-host/strong-host distinc= tion isn't currently an accurate depiction of how hosts or routers work in 2= 018, and isn't an obvious choice for a virtualized system. I refer to RFC 11= 22, section 3.3.4.2,  Multihoming Requirements, which has to do with the choice of source address from a host= with more than one interface.

 

IMO, Internet nodes are inherently weak-host at the IP layer= and strong-host at the link layer.

 

The weak-host part is validated, as you note, by RFC 1122.

 

The strong-host part is validate, AFAICT, by ARP and neighbo= r discovery.

 

Although there can be addresses assigned to a "node" rather t= han an interface, the distinction is philosophical at best; as you point out= , all addresses are effectively virtual interfaces anyway - and those interfaces are defined in the context of the network ove= r which they reach other interfaces.

 

Joe

____________________= ___________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mai= lman/listinfo/v6ops
= --Apple-Mail-C8ABAB87-F6D7-440D-A4F8-4E92DE005894-- From nobody Mon Apr 30 13:59:04 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 36E12127058 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:59:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.989 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.989 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, T_SPF_PERMERROR=0.01] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=strayalpha.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id mh3-t9J9vBw6 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:58:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from server217-3.web-hosting.com (server217-3.web-hosting.com [198.54.115.226]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C6B4C126BF6 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 13:58:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=strayalpha.com; s=default; h=Message-ID:References:In-Reply-To:Subject:Cc: To:From:Date:Content-Type:MIME-Version:Sender:Reply-To: Content-Transfer-Encoding:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date: Resent-From:Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id: List-Help:List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=bskbTmeTEbx0LTKAFLivbcRx6JO3s6NlIg3VkxlnXAc=; b=RNucfFyMCyaR4tAnyfTI2WPWA yY++BCteI4ht5IWrGGX5+dBmlrnccWBy20qG5ADfs/oweHZysOkcqySrcsM/02JTLmKFZqzOC9oBP R6cCJkZTeX5bFqs5C7aoHP3fw16aU8wQ/S0zr6IOr0w0NVq9j9zzsQ33hwZhUP/9y6uVirhAqMN/h M0apjqsrBAxEVvOWlUsNCXFft1HxZDIPdsG2/v2VICaZqhxeJ5EG/8qsdfep7Z1nb+5KWL1+2pdwF Zzh8O7of2LvFJ4+/FjBiTF1cM30QvEDoUhs7TxnvNeHa8EVJfoNY6aJBQnZdHe6VAlrTWcY688bJp SifyjdPTQ==; Received: from [::1] (port=35150 helo=webmail.strayalpha.com) by server217.web-hosting.com with esmtpa (Exim 4.89_1) (envelope-from ) id 1fDFsw-001MYx-Dt; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:58:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=_afa940102f8e1ebe25889b3316d1addf" Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:58:58 -0400 From: Joe Touch To: "Templin (US), Fred L" Cc: Fred Baker , V6 Ops List In-Reply-To: <279dd3a9d8f748a1afe22924ba980e9b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> References: <4AFC3A31-4A5A-433A-B02E-A154BBE5A566@gmail.com> <4bdf9f83e75ab30384ae32774b63d2a5@strayalpha.com> <279dd3a9d8f748a1afe22924ba980e9b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Message-ID: <853a042cffb96849875b816e69c28aef@strayalpha.com> X-Sender: touch@strayalpha.com User-Agent: Roundcube Webmail/1.2.7 X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 20:59:02 -0000 --=_afa940102f8e1ebe25889b3316d1addf Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On 2018-04-30 16:06, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > Hi Joe/Fred, > > A comment on one point that was made: > >> Although there can be addresses assigned to a "node" rather than an interface, > > I always understood that addresses were assigned to an interface, > > even if only a loopback or other internal virtual interface. They strictly don't need to be assigned to an interface at all, except as an artifact of how certain OSes are designed. I.e., you can assign one to "the node" that is not assigned to an interface, so that it would be used as a source address only when explicitly indicated by the application or as a reply to that address (and never, e.g., as a side effect of 1122 forwarding lookup). > An > > address (or prefix) can be delegated to the node, but until the > > node assigns the addresses to an interface they are unreachable. > > And, if the node receives packets with destination addresses that > > are unassigned it can either send a Destination Unreachable, or > > just let it black hole. Do I have this right? They may be unreachable from L2 packets received on an addressed LAN, but they would be reachable from unnumbered pt-pt interfaces or via decapsulation (again, depending on how the OS implements tunnels). Yes, it's simpler in most current OSes do assign these to an interface (at least a virtual interface), but it isn't strictly required. For IPv6, this would require a way to assign an address that was NOT a direct effect of receiving an RA message, but that's permitted. Joe > Thanks - Fred > > FROM: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] ON BEHALF OF Joe Touch > SENT: Monday, April 30, 2018 9:03 AM > TO: Fred Baker > CC: V6 Ops List > SUBJECT: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 > > On 2018-04-29 20:09, Fred Baker wrote: > > On Apr 28, 2018, at 9:41 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > > 3. Does the answer to 2. depend on the weak-host, strong-host distinction? > > Speaking for myself, and hats off, I think the weak-host/strong-host distinction isn't currently an accurate depiction of how hosts or routers work in 2018, and isn't an obvious choice for a virtualized system. I refer to RFC 1122, section 3.3.4.2, Multihoming Requirements, which has to do with the choice of source address from a host with more than one interface. IMO, Internet nodes are inherently weak-host at the IP layer and strong-host at the link layer. The weak-host part is validated, as you note, by RFC 1122. The strong-host part is validate, AFAICT, by ARP and neighbor discovery. Although there can be addresses assigned to a "node" rather than an interface, the distinction is philosophical at best; as you point out, all addresses are effectively virtual interfaces anyway - and those interfaces are defined in the context of the network over which they reach other interfaces. Joe --=_afa940102f8e1ebe25889b3316d1addf Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8


 


On 2018-04-30 16:06, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:

Hi Joe/Fred,

 

A comment on one point that was made:

 

>Although there can be addresses assigned to a "node" rather = than an interface,

 

I always understood that addresses were assigned= to an interface,

even if only a loopback or other internal virtua= l interface.

They strictly don't need to be assigned to an interface at all, ex= cept as an artifact of how certain OSes are designed.

I.e., you can assign one to "the node" that is not assigned to an = interface, so that it would be used as a source address only when explicitl= y indicated by the application or as a reply to that address (and never, e= =2Eg., as a side effect of 1122 forwarding lookup).

An

address (or prefix) can be delegated to the node= , but until the

node assigns the addresses to an interface they = are unreachable.

And, if the node receives packets with destinati= on addresses that

are unassigned it can either send a Destination = Unreachable, or

just let it black hole. Do I have this right?

They may be unreachable from L2 packets received on an addressed L= AN, but they would be reachable from unnumbered pt-pt interfaces or via dec= apsulation (again, depending on how the OS implements tunnels).

Yes, it's simpler in most current OSes do assign these to an inter= face (at least a virtual interface), but it isn't strictly required.=

For IPv6, this would require a way to assign an address that was N= OT a direct effect of receiving an RA message, but that's permitted.=

Joe

 

 

 

Thanks - Fred

 

From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ie= tf.org] On Behalf Of Joe Touch
Sent:= Monday, April 30, 2018 9:03 AM
To: Fred Baker <fr= edbaker.ietf@gmail.com>
Cc: V6 Ops List <v6ops@= ietf.org>
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops= -pdhost discussion post-IETF 101

On= 2018-04-29 20:09, Fred Baker wrote:

On Apr 28, 2018, at 9:41 PM, Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>= wrote:

3. Does the answer to 2. depend on the weak-host, strong-host di= stinction?


Speaking for myself, and hats off, I think the weak-host/= strong-host distinction isn't currently an accurate depiction of how hosts = or routers work in 2018, and isn't an obvious choice for a virtualized syst= em. I refer to RFC 1122, section 3.3.4.2,  Multihoming Requirements, w= hich has to do with the choice of source address from a host with more than= one interface.

 

IMO, Internet nodes are inherently weak-host at the IP layer and= strong-host at the link layer.

 

The weak-host part is validated, as you note, by RFC 1122.

 

The strong-host part is validate, AFAICT, by ARP and neighbor di= scovery.

 

Although there can be addresses assigned to a "node" rather than= an interface, the distinction is philosophical at best; as you point out, = all addresses are effectively virtual interfaces anyway - and those interfa= ces are defined in the context of the network over which they reach other i= nterfaces.

 

Joe

--=_afa940102f8e1ebe25889b3316d1addf-- From nobody Mon Apr 30 16:51:28 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id D048B127522 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:51:26 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id PrbJfsod4zqd for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pf0-x22c.google.com (mail-pf0-x22c.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:400e:c00::22c]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id BF801127333 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:51:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-pf0-x22c.google.com with SMTP id e9so3976161pfi.4 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:51:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=sender:subject:to:references:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language:content-transfer-encoding; bh=YKEppsSO1RlKrlbr5X3PPIVVp1IUIumpa2KvMvVaZW8=; b=ZCMCGGRt85O8yU/1jk5idICDbU0YsCNsk8wY5fwf5scibSZK+xvoWTd7ai5doG2/AO dZ4FLX2zA/EfdCn1M9qEVh8hD09dr6PqUAxUX4HeGi7ZifbXViF2KhLMmzVglBG3XzZl 0xXUxJUf8FAXwOQJP4eUg4PukIaZ4qoqw4L78Y6MpIOiJB5BSa3V08BaAIvs8eVMvw+9 3hrtjyQG2YMz9lgLhCedTJ6NdD64V+kryxxekw35lTO8UdZoNl0g91i1Oz8yIcaeVoxy c7qsNIWwLnidQ7ZYxQiK+/5n5KjXIC3Vuwt59hyerRqhLK2OaGy1/kJtpsIzmumJI1mu stUQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:sender:subject:to:references:from:message-id :date:user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-language :content-transfer-encoding; bh=YKEppsSO1RlKrlbr5X3PPIVVp1IUIumpa2KvMvVaZW8=; b=F80+On+gsU3oL/MP+QdBhx0iQ0inTHM1zlnEaZIrjKqznhrFukNLO0nCZb94hoy8Oy k/dVpCxAon7jnaYZu/sSaCcXArTWCgBqE8Lbav5mkMa8frGsYoITJXmjKR03VTeQ78B7 gL70UzyxAjLL4/NJHy8+A4yGduiUe3ee8IODyrzL4sLSlu6Mx8EhOWsq3T1juS5hGqbz WSk2pqyFowOupmcdcaVdSr0dv/4dDTSQN+Tb27HPeYheabktaehPBwcso+/W12qO5zKN dSRXbkFlgB24GgqVngcWOxf1d+vERupJK9nBmDl12VgnIgRHAYBsN7GLqbrunJ9e+kwd OT1g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tDN6By+E0BUBCCG0iODV6R6jp/V7eyaQz07odbNAbOQmojHYMlj usoAdkW504DR0Cih1sq9LjP6Fg== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZofD65iwl5Yrpwu1A40OvAB5W51QKFwhVLCdLh0mUBYPc5J7CERnNCW+Fp95t400KpCv69EVA== X-Received: by 10.98.34.145 with SMTP id p17mr13857999pfj.236.1525132283999; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.178.26] ([118.149.104.73]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id e17sm3813771pfn.67.2018.04.30.16.51.21 for (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 30 Apr 2018 16:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Sender: Brian Carpenter To: v6ops@ietf.org References: <4AFC3A31-4A5A-433A-B02E-A154BBE5A566@gmail.com> <4bdf9f83e75ab30384ae32774b63d2a5@strayalpha.com> <279dd3a9d8f748a1afe22924ba980e9b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <853a042cffb96849875b816e69c28aef@strayalpha.com> From: Brian E Carpenter Message-ID: <25b749a8-ea19-8b5a-b757-d4b1652461a7@gmail.com> Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 09:51:01 +1200 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.1; WOW64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.7.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <853a042cffb96849875b816e69c28aef@strayalpha.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 23:51:27 -0000 On 01/05/2018 08:58, Joe Touch wrote: > On 2018-04-30 16:06, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: > >> Hi Joe/Fred, >> >> A comment on one point that was made: >> >>> Although there can be addresses assigned to a "node" rather than an interface, >> >> I always understood that addresses were assigned to an interface, >> >> even if only a loopback or other internal virtual interface. > > They strictly don't need to be assigned to an interface at all, except > as an artifact of how certain OSes are designed. But they are *defined* in IPv6 thus [RFC4291]: "IPv6 addresses are 128-bit identifiers for interfaces and sets of interfaces ... Unicast: An identifier for a single interface. ... Anycast: An identifier for a set of interfaces (typically belonging to different nodes) ... Multicast: An identifier for a set of interfaces (typically belonging to different nodes)." > > I.e., you can assign one to "the node" that is not assigned to an > interface, so that it would be used as a source address only when > explicitly indicated by the application or as a reply to that address > (and never, e.g., as a side effect of 1122 forwarding lookup). Not really. Because of the above quote, an IPv6 address is always assigned to an interface. Sometimes it's assigned to a virtual interface quaintly known as the "loopback" interface. It's murkily different than IPv4. Brian > >> An >> >> address (or prefix) can be delegated to the node, but until the >> >> node assigns the addresses to an interface they are unreachable. >> >> And, if the node receives packets with destination addresses that >> >> are unassigned it can either send a Destination Unreachable, or >> >> just let it black hole. Do I have this right? > > They may be unreachable from L2 packets received on an addressed LAN, > but they would be reachable from unnumbered pt-pt interfaces or via > decapsulation (again, depending on how the OS implements tunnels). > > Yes, it's simpler in most current OSes do assign these to an interface > (at least a virtual interface), but it isn't strictly required. > > For IPv6, this would require a way to assign an address that was NOT a > direct effect of receiving an RA message, but that's permitted. > > Joe > >> Thanks - Fred >> >> FROM: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] ON BEHALF OF Joe Touch >> SENT: Monday, April 30, 2018 9:03 AM >> TO: Fred Baker >> CC: V6 Ops List >> SUBJECT: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 >> >> On 2018-04-29 20:09, Fred Baker wrote: >> >> On Apr 28, 2018, at 9:41 PM, Fred Baker wrote: >> >> 3. Does the answer to 2. depend on the weak-host, strong-host distinction? >> >> Speaking for myself, and hats off, I think the weak-host/strong-host distinction isn't currently an accurate depiction of how hosts or routers work in 2018, and isn't an obvious choice for a virtualized system. I refer to RFC 1122, section 3.3.4.2, Multihoming Requirements, which has to do with the choice of source address from a host with more than one interface. > > IMO, Internet nodes are inherently weak-host at the IP layer and > strong-host at the link layer. > > The weak-host part is validated, as you note, by RFC 1122. > > The strong-host part is validate, AFAICT, by ARP and neighbor discovery. > > > Although there can be addresses assigned to a "node" rather than an > interface, the distinction is philosophical at best; as you point out, > all addresses are effectively virtual interfaces anyway - and those > interfaces are defined in the context of the network over which they > reach other interfaces. > > Joe > > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops > From nobody Mon Apr 30 18:16:21 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 44D8412702E for ; 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boundary="Apple-Mail=_5D4F80C4-D38D-47DD-A27B-64398C8F3968" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) From: Joe Touch In-Reply-To: <25b749a8-ea19-8b5a-b757-d4b1652461a7@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:16:18 -0700 Cc: v6ops@ietf.org Message-Id: References: <4AFC3A31-4A5A-433A-B02E-A154BBE5A566@gmail.com> <4bdf9f83e75ab30384ae32774b63d2a5@strayalpha.com> <279dd3a9d8f748a1afe22924ba980e9b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <853a042cffb96849875b816e69c28aef@strayalpha.com> <25b749a8-ea19-8b5a-b757-d4b1652461a7@gmail.com> To: Brian E Carpenter X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-OutGoing-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.0 X-AntiAbuse: This header was added to track abuse, please include it with any abuse report X-AntiAbuse: Primary Hostname - server217.web-hosting.com X-AntiAbuse: Original Domain - ietf.org X-AntiAbuse: Originator/Caller UID/GID - [47 12] / [47 12] X-AntiAbuse: Sender Address Domain - strayalpha.com X-Get-Message-Sender-Via: server217.web-hosting.com: authenticated_id: touch@strayalpha.com X-Authenticated-Sender: server217.web-hosting.com: touch@strayalpha.com X-Source: X-Source-Args: X-Source-Dir: X-From-Rewrite: unmodified, already matched Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 May 2018 01:16:20 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5D4F80C4-D38D-47DD-A27B-64398C8F3968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Apr 30, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter = wrote: >=20 > On 01/05/2018 08:58, Joe Touch wrote: >> On 2018-04-30 16:06, Templin (US), Fred L wrote: >>=20 >>> Hi Joe/Fred,=20 >>>=20 >>> A comment on one point that was made:=20 >>>=20 >>>> Although there can be addresses assigned to a "node" rather than an = interface,=20 >>>=20 >>> I always understood that addresses were assigned to an interface,=20 >>>=20 >>> even if only a loopback or other internal virtual interface. >>=20 >> They strictly don't need to be assigned to an interface at all, = except >> as an artifact of how certain OSes are designed. >=20 > But they are *defined* in IPv6 thus [RFC4291]: >=20 > "IPv6 addresses are 128-bit identifiers for interfaces and sets of = interfaces > .... Unicast: An identifier for a single interface. > .... Anycast: An identifier for a set of interfaces (typically > belonging to different nodes) > .... Multicast: An identifier for a set of interfaces (typically > belonging to different nodes).=E2=80=9D It=E2=80=99s even more direct in 2.1: "IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not nodes.=E2=80=9D= Sadly, neither case uses normative language nor explains why this needs = to be the case. Further, the definition of =E2=80=9Cinterface=E2=80=9D = points to RFC2460, which defines it as attaching to a link, somewhat = undermining the idea that they can even be assigned to virtual = interfaces that don=E2=80=99t associate with a link at all. So if you need to do the mental calisthenics to say =E2=80=9Cor assigned = to a virtual link not associated with a physical link=E2=80=9D vs. = =E2=80=9Cassociated with the node=E2=80=9D, sure - do so. I don=E2=80=99t = see the difference at all, except as an implementation detail. >> I.e., you can assign one to "the node" that is not assigned to an >> interface, so that it would be used as a source address only when >> explicitly indicated by the application or as a reply to that address >> (and never, e.g., as a side effect of 1122 forwarding lookup). >=20 > Not really. Because of the above quote, an IPv6 address is always > assigned to an interface. Sometimes it's assigned to a virtual > interface quaintly known as the "loopback" interface. >=20 > It's murkily different than IPv4. IMO, it=E2=80=99s murky all around=E2=80=A6 YMMV. Joe --Apple-Mail=_5D4F80C4-D38D-47DD-A27B-64398C8F3968 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8

On Apr 30, 2018, at 2:51 PM, Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

On = 01/05/2018 08:58, Joe Touch wrote:
On 2018-04-30 16:06, Templin (US), Fred L wrote:

Hi = Joe/Fred,

A comment on one point that was = made:

Although there can be addresses assigned to a "node" rather = than an interface,

I always = understood that addresses were assigned to an interface,

even if only a loopback or other internal = virtual interface.

They = strictly don't need to be assigned to an interface at all, except
as an artifact of how certain OSes are designed.

But they are *defined* in IPv6 = thus [RFC4291]:

"IPv6 addresses are 128-bit = identifiers for interfaces and sets of interfaces
.... = Unicast:   An identifier for a single interface.
.... Anycast:   An identifier for a set of = interfaces (typically
   belonging to = different nodes)
.... Multicast: An identifier for a set = of interfaces (typically
   belonging to = different nodes).=E2=80=9D

It=E2=80=99s even more direct in = 2.1:
"IPv6 addresses of all types are assigned to interfaces, not = nodes.=E2=80=9D

Sadly, neither = case uses normative language nor explains why this needs to be the case. = Further, the definition of =E2=80=9Cinterface=E2=80=9D points to = RFC2460, which defines it as attaching to a link, somewhat undermining = the idea that they can even be assigned to virtual interfaces that = don=E2=80=99t associate with a link at all.

So if you need to do = the mental calisthenics to say =E2=80=9Cor assigned to = a virtual link not associated with a physical link=E2=80=9D = vs. =E2=80=9Cassociated with the node=E2=80=9D, sure - do so. I = don=E2=80=99t see the difference at all, except as an implementation = detail.

I.e., you can assign one to "the node" that is not assigned = to an
interface, so that it would be used as a source = address only when
explicitly indicated by the application = or as a reply to that address
(and never, e.g., as a side = effect of 1122 forwarding lookup).

Not really. Because of the above quote, an IPv6 address is = always
assigned to an interface. Sometimes it's assigned = to a virtual
interface quaintly known as the "loopback" = interface.

It's murkily different than = IPv4.

IMO, it=E2=80=99s murky all = around=E2=80=A6

YMMV.

Joe

= --Apple-Mail=_5D4F80C4-D38D-47DD-A27B-64398C8F3968-- From nobody Mon Apr 30 18:28:01 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id E60AA127342 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:27:59 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.699 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.699 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW=-0.7, SPF_PASS=-0.001, URIBL_BLOCKED=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Authentication-Results: ietfa.amsl.com (amavisd-new); dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id VMSe_IoytXoB for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wm0-x22d.google.com (mail-wm0-x22d.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:400c:c09::22d]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8A7EA127333 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:27:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by mail-wm0-x22d.google.com with SMTP id o78so17097753wmg.0 for ; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:27:55 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=Rx+8f7JqPpLsbF0iLcvSmiMmfaKn+VT3eApas2+Wng4=; b=khegl3EgrUVJR/WYfARRRwS0NFjcYY+RYz3xWzfhPdQNGlIC55fa+v+XnvEOQJEgiw UusbouQE14CQf5pjrfU7tqllkwGMsUeCbAsVkGP5lqJOFD2L4LJztBPNHqdjV1rjEY2y PB7TPRr0w4S7MMVJkdZq+JNtGhH8jkY0iBZTJLC1kxEahjLhUhr+O8hB4oJifzYhbBBg qqEvHYsNbQibmRtYLrV2rRrhrmJa5XmCXXBhPOa6bzoFWX3PSPZKaxw2gvhNvy6MQG1f KbfAraDps1OTe+NOpdDtHaNFyxfZ52Bn8K76HuFBygXjAXEn42Z7MQf/Ie8aHNsLqIJi 6Jyg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=Rx+8f7JqPpLsbF0iLcvSmiMmfaKn+VT3eApas2+Wng4=; b=dzmyWt90uAja1uJZN/LksHF/2NjTA76PRxQINiTbr26rT6HXIrbxdOmHSEpHmYBJzt SRKnZVh77vOIOuBL0LKSVfkDs+x1qC2qiKSB5omCyZDQ+V9g7aOM07gLYHT3WLDCPHPK ZF/h3nT6pqI8N1IPX1h2PWtRujbU/4hMSRYTa+fhtno0G8n8sYVERVpNpQBoycEi1U62 4Q6z7nA8vEQRonS336+QrOO0NfB9qattwoUiCHgpcvzXDhjLwmZ+qjGTuRBLSq9J+jo/ nYYCw9p9ZnymJB9DCce5l/8SbHx6qH8g1La6n1ptcdeFPw3E2z8PxlVi/VK0dbhjep0P qdyw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALQs6tCBAm+4+0tTk4ycoE5DwK4WmXD4ysQwr0VezKZ3Sv2djMnnrqby 0SC9txWfRudthF9qN094+gcXXPuA X-Google-Smtp-Source: AB8JxZp5NvoKlIJR+j9RgsmgB+HM9xgcK6SP60QDJjZTVK7wbRlwVf7HkYIWvx/k8mpmpALsyOgFbw== X-Received: by 2002:aa7:d4cf:: with SMTP id t15-v6mr5489396edr.214.1525138073602; Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:27:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from 226.66.20.149.in-addr.arpa (226.66.20.149.in-addr.arpa. [149.20.66.226]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id n8-v6sm5073437edb.5.2018.04.30.18.27.51 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 30 Apr 2018 18:27:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Baker Message-Id: <34390557-A240-400D-A9E3-255E82DE922F@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_FE997C87-BF7F-4BA6-A121-2EA9636DFA12"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.3 \(3445.6.18\)) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 21:27:47 -0400 In-Reply-To: <279dd3a9d8f748a1afe22924ba980e9b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> Cc: Joe Touch , V6 Ops List To: Fred Templin References: <4AFC3A31-4A5A-433A-B02E-A154BBE5A566@gmail.com> <4bdf9f83e75ab30384ae32774b63d2a5@strayalpha.com> <279dd3a9d8f748a1afe22924ba980e9b@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.6.18) Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost discussion post-IETF 101 X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.22 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 01 May 2018 01:28:00 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_FE997C87-BF7F-4BA6-A121-2EA9636DFA12 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > On Apr 30, 2018, at 4:06 PM, Templin (US), Fred L = wrote: >=20 > I always understood that addresses were assigned to an interface, > even if only a loopback or other internal virtual interface. An > address (or prefix) can be delegated to the node, but until the > node assigns the addresses to an interface they are unreachable. > And, if the node receives packets with destination addresses that > are unassigned it can either send a Destination Unreachable, or > just let it black hole. Do I have this right? Ole and Joe already replied. I'd be interested in comments from people = that have deployed the allocation of a prefix to a node. My = understanding is that the address is assigned to a virtual interface = used by a container or whatever. When people talk about assigning one to = an application (which I have also heard), I tend to think they are using = it as a combination of an address (get the packet to the destination = node) and a port (deliver the packet to a transport session or = application). At that point, it diverges a bit from the historic = "address on an interface" model in the sense that the interface isn't = completely obvious. --Apple-Mail=_FE997C87-BF7F-4BA6-A121-2EA9636DFA12 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEctjlJjQmVrp9uMq7EhdRnd2GP+AFAlrnwpMACgkQEhdRnd2G P+Cb/g//T0UUSWV/itF8g8E+TchZbqWVe7lUOiiQtIkvPNDP/qmlBIaf/C2ODVVC b+oP6iez4CZmX1m5gyRMFrFYmeBnOc7eAYTarWxhie9mOo0LScvvX891IVYTw2X9 OlzcyUYSjv7f9ePJVmdLBHUIHBfbVjvMjVgh8pegSmOqEbk2Dn0OPm/jpYhHPAx7 DqvDIqWasIBuIZpBPG9ee4PDectarS0QABi5orhdPLHeU2s9nsvpwQFpojRrwxCw KmLdgd/BfuRZQQ/ZfVGNeVUR59uGqRitmVjhFrM665iBOWQHCKi264gzNf9jiOnf 3eocrfxO7yK+fChVKfsy2X+dcSGBCKp1lw3p1T0yBwnLGGBdhpogCjcySOlRU3zy S29R0InEp+0aDBZ2Ze3N+e0h6gZqL28TqHOG2EkFf4a6ecVFxiNitPdEmsNKQwIT Hm9bgPGIhyGxgwZ3fI3SYTA+uVOB5hufBt2Q97MWuu5+AhEAMgleoUCFaygOiB+H WM8T7Sgnv0sk24HHS0gvtdXYF7xBtwAiSpZctu03s/+0m0OgbjL3g0F/Mi/4vVwW 4QgGxn55fFuWnj3sMtV4bL0mdO0O0SbWtQCXinHcsTooqFX/UC3bIvu6Uxz3JMCt zC2OG78z+PzIk90DXqbHuza62ycj+W9AUZ8bImMAQHhBqYdkE34= =QOY0 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_FE997C87-BF7F-4BA6-A121-2EA9636DFA12--