From nobody Sun Jul 1 10:18:34 2018 Return-Path: X-Original-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Delivered-To: v6ops@ietfa.amsl.com Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8FB1E12F1A2 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 10:18:32 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at amsl.com X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.899 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.899 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from mail.ietf.org ([4.31.198.44]) by localhost (ietfa.amsl.com [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 3fEyIpuSSBRz for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 10:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from calypso.otenet.gr (calypso.otenet.gr [83.235.67.36]) by ietfa.amsl.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0E83D126CC7 for ; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 10:18:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.8] (dusted.otenet.gr [195.167.126.245]) by calypso.otenet.gr (ESMTP) with ESMTPA id 70521138043; Sun, 1 Jul 2018 20:18:27 +0300 (EEST) To: Fred Baker , =?UTF-8?Q?Jordi_Palet_Mart=c3=adnez?= , "v6ops@ietf.org list" References: <663F489C-7F63-4B0C-A5E6-F7EE4634E62B@gmail.com> From: Yannis Nikolopoulos Message-ID: <60335039-287e-4fb3-870b-2c4fe9b5445d@otenet.gr> Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 20:18:06 +0300 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:52.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/52.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <663F489C-7F63-4B0C-A5E6-F7EE4634E62B@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------9FF2DD9F7222D19E662C55F4" Content-Language: en-US Archived-At: Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments X-BeenThere: v6ops@ietf.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.26 Precedence: list List-Id: v6ops discussion list List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 01 Jul 2018 17:18:33 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------9FF2DD9F7222D19E662C55F4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello, as with all such documents, this has a potential to help those starting with such a transition. So, I support the draft's intention regards, Yannis On 06/27/2018 08:04 PM, Fred Baker wrote: > Chair comment: I am interested in making this draft a working group draft. I think there is merit in it to do so. However, following our usual process, I need agreement from the working group. Consider this a solicitation for that. To do so, I'm looking for comments, supportive or otherwise, especially from operators. To respond to Barbara's question that she raised with ipv4aas, making it a working group document doesn't mean it's done, it means it's a work item as opposed to a suggestion to the working group. > > The rest of this is sans hats. > > Thanks for your new draft. Let me say that I am increasingly hearing about ISPs (cellular and broadband) that, in the words of one, "just don't want to allocate IPv4 addresses anymore", and are taking important steps toward turning IPv4 off within their networks in favor of IPv4 as a service. As you know, this falls into a couple of categories - those that are willing to offer a client-only IPv4-over-IPv6 or IPv4-cum-IPv6 service, and those that need to be able to somehow still put an IPv4 address into an A record (such as a company like Lumix that uses Dynamic DNS Update and firewall hole-punching to allow a residential user to access their surveillance system from an Android/iPhone app) and use it to send a message to the IPv4 server. So IMHO, this is an important draft, and it would be useful to get operator comment on it. > > I'm reviewing the draft. I'll bring up nits inline, and I may have some other thoughts as well. > >> Abstract >> >> This document describes how NAT64 and 464XLAT can be deployed in an >> IPv6 operator (cellular and broadband) or enterprise network and the > I suspect that this would read better as "IPv6 network, whether cellular ISP, broadband ISP, or enterprise". > >> 1. Introduction >> To avoid changes in both, the IPv6-only hosts and the IPv4-only >> server, NAT64 requires also the use of a DNS64 ([RFC6147]), in charge >> for the synthesis of AAAA records from the A records. > I would disagree that NAT64 "requires" DNS64. NAT64 requires that the destination IPv6 address contain an embedded IPv4 address. The source of that IPv4-embedded IPv6 address is up to the system that sent the packet. A CLAT (stateless translation as in RFC 7915) uses address synthesis with a PLAT translation prefix. MAP-T adds NAPT44 functionality to that with respect to the outbound IPv4 source address. A random IPv6 host accessing an IPv4-only peer might use DNS64, and the AAAA records might simply exist in DNS containing an IPv4-embedded IPv6 address. But the NAT64 function doesn't use, nor does it require, DNS64. > > BTW, SIIT-DC makes rather a point that RFC 6146 is a per-session (effectively NAPT) translator, and provides translation strictly at the IP layer. I suspect that is also a valid configuration, one that needs to be supported. In the 464XLAT case, I think it falls out, but I'll have to think about MAP-T. > >> 3. NAT64 Deployment Scenarios >> Consequently, the perspective in this document is to broader those > "broaden" > >> 3.1.2. Service Provider offering 464XLAT, with DNS64 > Pictorial image of what I'm picturing: > > +----+ +----+ > |DNS | +-----+ |DNS | > |IPv6| |DNS64| |IPv4| > +--+-+ +--+--+ +--+-+ > +------+ v6 +------+ | | | > | +----+ | ,--+--. | ,--+--. > |Dual | | IPv6 | / \ ,-+-. / \ > |Stack | +-+Router+--( IPv6 )--( PLAT)--( IPv4 ) > |Device|v4|C| | \Network/`. `---' \Network/ > | +--+L| | `--+--' `. /`-----' > +------+ |A| | | `+------+ > |T| | +--+---+ | Peer | > +-+------+ | IPv6 | |Device| > |Device| +------+ > +------+ > > The dual stack device obviously has an IPv4 and an IPv6 address, and the IPv4 side of it speaks through the CLAT. The IPv6 device has no IPv4 address. The peer device is the thing the "dual stack" device connects to, and might itself be dual stack or IPv4-only. In both cases, however, IPv4 access to the peer device will go through the PLAT. > > When the IPv6 device wants to talk with the peer device, it will need a AAAA record. In the dual stack case, that will contain a "usual" IPv6 address, and connectivity will be IPv6 end to end; in the IPv4-only case, it will need its IPv4 address embedded into the PLAT's translation prefix, which is or is functionally equivalent to DNS64. > > When the dual stack device wants to talk with the Peer Device, its IPv4 side will need an A record and the CLAT will do the address synthesis. Hence, no need for DNS64, and no requirement for it if it exists. The IPv6 side will need a AAAA record. If there is a native IPv6 address, that's fine, it will use that, and the system might be best served if the IPv6 connectivity is used. If there is a DNS64 AAAA record, the IPv4 side will use an A record and the CLAT and PLAT, and the IPv6 side will use the PLAT and the DNS64 address. > >> 3.1.3. Service Provider offering 464XLAT, without DNS64 > The difference from the preceding section will be connectivity between an IPv6-only device and an IPv4-only peer. In the previous section, the IPv6 device will be unable to communicate with an IPv4-only peer, and the dual stack device will use its IPv4 side, the CLAT, and the PLAT. > >> The major advantage of this scenario, using 464XLAT without DNS64, is >> that the service provider ensures that DNSSEC is never broken. > Yes, but at the cost of IPv6-IPv4 connectivity. > >> 3.2. Known to Work Under Special Conditions >> >> The scenarios in this category are known not to work unless > "known to not work" > > I'll probably have more comments later, but I'm sending this much now. > > > _______________________________________________ > v6ops mailing list > v6ops@ietf.org > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops --------------9FF2DD9F7222D19E662C55F4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Hello,


as with all such documents, this has a potential to help those starting with such a transition. So, I support the draft's intention

regards,

Yannis


On 06/27/2018 08:04 PM, Fred Baker wrote:
Chair comment: I am interested in making this draft a working group draft. I think there is merit in it to do so. However, following our usual process, I need agreement from the working group. Consider this a solicitation for that. To do so, I'm looking for comments, supportive or otherwise, especially from operators. To respond to Barbara's question that she raised with ipv4aas, making it a working group document doesn't mean it's done, it means it's a work item as opposed to a suggestion to the working group.

The rest of this is sans hats.

Thanks for your new draft. Let me say that I am increasingly hearing about ISPs (cellular and broadband) that, in the words of one, "just don't want to allocate IPv4 addresses anymore", and are taking important steps toward turning IPv4 off within their networks in favor of IPv4 as a service. As you know, this falls into a couple of categories - those that are willing to offer a client-only IPv4-over-IPv6 or IPv4-cum-IPv6 service, and those that need to be able to somehow still put an IPv4 address into an A record (such as a company like Lumix that uses Dynamic DNS Update and firewall hole-punching to allow a residential user to access their surveillance system from an Android/iPhone app) and use it to send a message to the IPv4 server. So IMHO, this is an important draft, and it would be useful to get operator comment on it.

I'm reviewing the draft. I'll bring up nits inline, and I may have some other thoughts as well.


Abstract

   This document describes how NAT64 and 464XLAT can be deployed in an
   IPv6 operator (cellular and broadband) or enterprise network and the

I suspect that this would read better as "IPv6 network, whether cellular ISP, broadband ISP, or enterprise".


1.  Introduction


      

        
   To avoid changes in both, the IPv6-only hosts and the IPv4-only
   server, NAT64 requires also the use of a DNS64 ([RFC6147]), in charge
   for the synthesis of AAAA records from the A records.


      

      
I would disagree that NAT64 "requires" DNS64. NAT64 requires that the destination IPv6 address contain an embedded IPv4 address. The source of that IPv4-embedded IPv6 address is up to the system that sent the packet. A CLAT (stateless translation as in RFC 7915) uses address synthesis with a PLAT translation prefix. MAP-T adds NAPT44 functionality to that with respect to the outbound IPv4 source address. A random IPv6 host accessing an IPv4-only peer might use DNS64, and the AAAA records might simply exist in DNS containing an IPv4-embedded IPv6 address. But the NAT64 function doesn't use, nor does it require, DNS64.

BTW, SIIT-DC makes rather a point that RFC 6146 is a per-session (effectively NAPT) translator, and provides translation strictly at the IP layer. I suspect that is also a valid configuration, one that needs to be supported. In the 464XLAT case, I think it falls out, but I'll have to think about MAP-T.



      

        
3.  NAT64 Deployment Scenarios


      

      

      

        
   Consequently, the perspective in this document is to broader those


      

      
"broaden"



      

        
3.1.2.  Service Provider offering 464XLAT, with DNS64


      

      
Pictorial image of what I'm picturing:

                          +----+                +----+
                          |DNS |     +-----+    |DNS |
                          |IPv6|     |DNS64|    |IPv4|
                          +--+-+     +--+--+    +--+-+
  +------+ v6 +------+       |          |          |
  |      +----+      |    ,--+--.       |       ,--+--.
  |Dual  |    | IPv6 |   /       \    ,-+-.    /       \
  |Stack |  +-+Router+--(  IPv6   )--( PLAT)--(  IPv4   )
  |Device|v4|C|      |   \Network/`.  `---'    \Network/
  |      +--+L|      |    `--+--'   `.         /`-----'
  +------+  |A|      |       |        `+------+
            |T|      |    +--+---+     | Peer |
            +-+------+    | IPv6 |     |Device|
                          |Device|     +------+
                          +------+

The dual stack device obviously has an IPv4 and an IPv6 address, and the IPv4 side of it speaks through the CLAT. The IPv6 device has no IPv4 address. The peer device is the thing the "dual stack" device connects to, and might itself be dual stack or IPv4-only. In both cases, however, IPv4 access to the peer device will go through the PLAT.

When the IPv6 device wants to talk with the peer device, it will need a AAAA record. In the dual stack case, that will contain a "usual" IPv6 address, and connectivity will be IPv6 end to end; in the IPv4-only case, it will need its IPv4 address embedded into the PLAT's translation prefix, which is or is functionally equivalent to DNS64.

When the dual stack device wants to talk with the Peer Device, its IPv4 side will need an A record and the CLAT will do the address synthesis. Hence, no need for DNS64, and no requirement for it if it exists. The IPv6 side will need a AAAA record. If there is a native IPv6 address, that's fine, it will use that, and the system might be best served if the IPv6 connectivity is used. If there is a DNS64 AAAA record, the IPv4 side will use an A record and the CLAT and PLAT, and the IPv6 side will use the PLAT and the DNS64 address.



      

        
3.1.3.  Service Provider offering 464XLAT, without DNS64


      

      
The difference from the preceding section will be connectivity between an IPv6-only device and an IPv4-only peer. In the previous section, the IPv6 device will be unable to communicate with an IPv4-only peer, and the dual stack device will use its IPv4 side, the CLAT, and the PLAT.



      

        
   The major advantage of this scenario, using 464XLAT without DNS64, is
   that the service provider ensures that DNSSEC is never broken.


      

      
Yes, but at the cost of IPv6-IPv4 connectivity.



      

        
3.2.  Known to Work Under Special Conditions

   The scenarios in this category are known not to work unless


      

      
"known to not work"

I'll probably have more comments later, but I'm sending this much now.


      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


    

    

  


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OK, I see enough interest in taking this to the next step. I have =
instructed Jordi to refile draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment as =
draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment.

> On Jul 1, 2018, at 10:18 AM, Yannis Nikolopoulos  =
wrote:
>=20
> Hello,
>=20
> as with all such documents, this has a potential to help those =
starting with such a transition. So, I support the draft's intention
>=20
> regards,
>=20
> Yannis
>=20
> On 06/27/2018 08:04 PM, Fred Baker wrote:
>> Chair comment: I am interested in making this draft a working group =
draft. I think there is merit in it to do so. However, following our =
usual process, I need agreement from the working group. Consider this a =
solicitation for that. To do so, I'm looking for comments, supportive or =
otherwise, especially from operators. To respond to Barbara's question =
that she raised with ipv4aas, making it a working group document doesn't =
mean it's done, it means it's a work item as opposed to a suggestion to =
the working group.


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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 5:50 AM Brian E Carpenter <
brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:

> There's no need to "dump" dual stack in situations where
> it's the best solution,


>From a pure network operations perspective, dual-stack is rarely the best
solution. It is much cheaper and operationally simpler to support only IPv6
in the network and run IPv4 on top of it.

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On Sun, Jul 1,=
 2018 at 5:50 AM Brian E Carpenter <brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
There's no need to "dump" dual stack in si=
tuations where

it's the best solution,

From a pure net=
work operations perspective, dual-stack is rarely the best solution. It is =
much cheaper and operationally simpler to support only IPv6 in the network =
and run IPv4 on top of it.


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From: George Michaelson 
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 12:53:08 +1000
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To: Lorenzo Colitti 
Cc: "Brian E. Carpenter" , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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I think this is one of those times the technologist narrow meaning
behind a phrase like "dual stack" and "IPv4 on top of IPv6" are lost
on a lot of people.

I know its "wrong" but I sympathise with a tech journalist seeking
clarity in this. The edge user situation is very hard to distinguish
in both cases, the user functionally can see both Ipv4 and Ipv6
resources. How is this not "dual" in the sense a man or woman in the
street would understand it?

-George


On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Lorenzo Colitti
 wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 5:50 AM Brian E Carpenter
>  wrote:
>>
>> There's no need to "dump" dual stack in situations where
>> it's the best solution,
>
>
> From a pure network operations perspective, dual-stack is rarely the best
> solution. It is much cheaper and operationally simpler to support only IPv6
> in the network and run IPv4 on top of it.
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>


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Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 05:15:29 +0200 (CEST)
From: Mikael Abrahamsson 
To: George Michaelson 
cc: Lorenzo Colitti ,  "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, George Michaelson wrote:

> I know its "wrong" but I sympathise with a tech journalist seeking 
> clarity in this. The edge user situation is very hard to distinguish in 
> both cases, the user functionally can see both Ipv4 and Ipv6 resources. 
> How is this not "dual" in the sense a man or woman in the street would 
> understand it?

Yes, we (networking people) still do not have proper wording for what we 
mean where. In my deployment we use LW4o6 (IPv6 only WAN with IPv4aaS), 
but on the LAN side of the HGW, it's dual stack.

I would of course want to go full IPv6 only everywhere so I don't have to 
do any IPv4 anywhere, but this seems to be far away still.

What I'd like to see is guidance to the host OS vendors what to do when it 
detects that there is NAT64 support but also IPv4 native available. Should 
it prefer NAT64 (including synthesising NAT64 usage for IPv4 literals in 
API calls) over native IPv4? Perhaps just in certain cases? In what WG 
should this be discussed? v6ops? The mobile OS vendors have implemented 
NAT64 support (including handling IPv4 literals), but most desktop vendors 
have only done this partly, or not at all. So we're still far away on 
hosts being able to handle this themselves.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se


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From: David Farmer 
Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 22:19:23 -0500
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To: Lorenzo Colitti 
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On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 9:42 PM, Lorenzo Colitti <
lorenzo=40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:

> On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 5:50 AM Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> There's no need to "dump" dual stack in situations where
>> it's the best solution,
>
>
> From a pure network operations perspective, dual-stack is rarely the best
> solution. It is much cheaper and operationally simpler to support only IPv6
> in the network and run IPv4 on top of it.
>

While I generally agree, which is simpler Dual Stack versus LW4o6 with A+P,
is definitely in the eye of the beholder. The point is, if there were easy
or obvious answers to this, we would have solved it a long time ago.




-- 
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On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 9:42 PM, Lorenzo Co=
litti <lorenzo=3D40google.com@dmarc.ietf.org> wrote:
On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 5:50 AM Brian E Ca=
rpenter <brian.e.carpente=
r@gmail.com> wrote:
There's no need to "dump" dual stack in situations=
 where

it's the best solution,

From a pure net=
work operations perspective, dual-stack is rarely the best solution. It is =
much cheaper and operationally simpler to support only IPv6 in the network =
and run IPv4 on top of it.

While I generally agree, which is simpler Dual Stack versus LW4o6 with A+=
P, is definitely in the eye of the beholder. The point is, if there were ea=
sy or obvious answers to this, we would have solved it a long time ago.
=





-- 
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
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=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
David Farmer=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0=C2=A0 Email:farmer@umn.ed=
u
Networking & Telecommunication Services
Office of Informati=
on Technology
University of Minnesota=C2=A0=C2=A0 
2218 University Av=
e SE=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 Phone: 612-626-0815
Minneapolis, MN 5541=
4-3029=C2=A0=C2=A0 Cell: 612-812-9952
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To: Lorenzo Colitti 
Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
References: <057742AA-226E-44F8-819E-C865D7F58758@gmail.com>  
From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 16:20:39 +1200
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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On 02/07/2018 14:42, Lorenzo Colitti wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 5:50 AM Brian E Carpenter <
> brian.e.carpenter@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> There's no need to "dump" dual stack in situations where
>> it's the best solution,
> 
> 
>>From a pure network operations perspective, dual-stack is rarely the best
> solution. It is much cheaper and operationally simpler to support only IPv6
> in the network and run IPv4 on top of it.

I doubt that this generalisation is true everywhere, and what happens inside
the network and what is presented to the transport layer in the host are two
different things. As long as it *looks* like a dual stack at the socket API,
that's fine.

    Brian


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From: Fred Baker 
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Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 23:28:22 -0700
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Cc: Lorenzo Colitti , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
To: George Michaelson 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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On Jul 1, 2018, at 7:53 PM, George Michaelson  wrote:
> I know its "wrong" but I sympathise with a tech journalist seeking
> clarity in this. The edge user situation is very hard to distinguish
> in both cases, the user functionally can see both Ipv4 and Ipv6
> resources. How is this not "dual" in the sense a man or woman in the
> street would understand it?

Of course. =46rom the perspective of a residential - or enterprise - =
user, they have both IPv4 and IPv6, and the network is carrying them. So =
from their perspective they retain dual stack capabilities in the near =
term. However, here's another factoid.

For the residential user, the number of services that actually require =
IPv4 is relatively small. I mentioned home security as a market that =
required the ability to make an IPv4 connection to the home. Suppose =
that could be changed? One way to change that would be for a few large =
ISPs to convince companies like LINK or ADT to become IPv6-capable, =
whereupon it becomes a market requirement for their competitors.

The ISP has just made having IPv4 at all a second priority for them; =
it's in their interest to move residential/soho/enterprise to IPv6, with =
the goal of removing the final translation step. I would expect their =
next move to be to charge for the service, and if possible move it to =
the edge itself  - which is where draft-*-v6ops-nat64-deployment is =
going. The transition rolls out from there.

The more outfits that find it in their interest to be able to operate =
without IPv4 at all, the better this is for all of us. And this becomes =
an important step in the general transition.

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I don't want to over-play it, but some of this goes to "the death of
transit" -IPv6 works fine as a direct relationship, or to content in
the CDN, especially if the CDN is tight to your ISP.

But there are downsides, like the loss of end-to-end in this. its a
model driving to vertical capture, where the CDN players and your ISP
own you and nothing happens normally beyond those boundaries.

I *like* immediacy,  I'm no different to anyone else @home, I like
short RTT and jumbogram service delivery. But, lets be careful we
don't forget packets have to go outside, and when they do, IPv6 still
has some issues in transit: There are far too many tunnels, and far
too many routes where it bounces, trombones, or just doesn't work.

-George

On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 4:28 PM, Fred Baker  wrote=
:
> On Jul 1, 2018, at 7:53 PM, George Michaelson  wrote:
>> I know its "wrong" but I sympathise with a tech journalist seeking
>> clarity in this. The edge user situation is very hard to distinguish
>> in both cases, the user functionally can see both Ipv4 and Ipv6
>> resources. How is this not "dual" in the sense a man or woman in the
>> street would understand it?
>
> Of course. From the perspective of a residential - or enterprise - user, =
they have both IPv4 and IPv6, and the network is carrying them. So from the=
ir perspective they retain dual stack capabilities in the near term. Howeve=
r, here's another factoid.
>
> For the residential user, the number of services that actually require IP=
v4 is relatively small. I mentioned home security as a market that required=
 the ability to make an IPv4 connection to the home. Suppose that could be =
changed? One way to change that would be for a few large ISPs to convince c=
ompanies like LINK or ADT to become IPv6-capable, whereupon it becomes a ma=
rket requirement for their competitors.
>
> The ISP has just made having IPv4 at all a second priority for them; it's=
 in their interest to move residential/soho/enterprise to IPv6, with the go=
al of removing the final translation step. I would expect their next move t=
o be to charge for the service, and if possible move it to the edge itself =
 - which is where draft-*-v6ops-nat64-deployment is going. The transition r=
olls out from there.
>
> The more outfits that find it in their interest to be able to operate wit=
hout IPv4 at all, the better this is for all of us. And this becomes an imp=
ortant step in the general transition.


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From: Tim Chown 
To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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> On 2 Jul 2018, at 07:28, Fred Baker  wrote:
>=20
> On Jul 1, 2018, at 7:53 PM, George Michaelson  wrote:
>> I know its "wrong" but I sympathise with a tech journalist seeking
>> clarity in this. The edge user situation is very hard to distinguish
>> in both cases, the user functionally can see both Ipv4 and Ipv6
>> resources. How is this not "dual" in the sense a man or woman in the
>> street would understand it?
>=20
> Of course. From the perspective of a residential - or enterprise - user, =
they have both IPv4 and IPv6, and the network is carrying them. So from the=
ir perspective they retain dual stack capabilities in the near term. Howeve=
r, here's another factoid.
>=20
> For the residential user, the number of services that actually require IP=
v4 is relatively small. I mentioned home security as a market that required=
 the ability to make an IPv4 connection to the home. Suppose that could be =
changed? One way to change that would be for a few large ISPs to convince c=
ompanies like LINK or ADT to become IPv6-capable, whereupon it becomes a ma=
rket requirement for their competitors.

Sadly I don't see my TV upgrading itself to IPv6 any time soon; that will h=
appen when I buy a new TV, in maybe 10 years time.  Streamed iPlayer and ot=
her video content to that TV is more than half of my home network traffic.

As for charging more, how would a customer know what devices support IPv4 a=
nd/or IPv6, or need IPv4?  Why should they care?  "We're charging you an ex=
tra $5/mo because you have v4 traffic" isn't helpful.=20

> The ISP has just made having IPv4 at all a second priority for them; it's=
 in their interest to move residential/soho/enterprise to IPv6, with the go=
al of removing the final translation step. I would expect their next move t=
o be to charge for the service, and if possible move it to the edge itself =
 - which is where draft-*-v6ops-nat64-deployment is going. The transition r=
olls out from there.
>=20
> The more outfits that find it in their interest to be able to operate wit=
hout IPv4 at all, the better this is for all of us. And this becomes an imp=
ortant step in the general transition.

I agree with the rest of what you say, but in a home network situation, the=
re's going to be a lot of legacy IPv4 traffic externally, just look at http=
s://arxiv.org/abs/1803.05368 for example.

Tim


From nobody Mon Jul  2 01:25:25 2018
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Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 10:25:16 +0200
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: Tim Chown , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
Message-ID: <111F8197-2F6B-4FF6-9BB8-4A00BFFF2419@consulintel.es>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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And that's why we need to ensure the CEs to support IPv4aaS urgently, so we=
 can progress with the deployment of IPv6 in access networks without impact=
ing the users (asking them to replace the cameras, TVs, etc.).



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: v6ops  en nombre de Tim Chown 

Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 10:17

Para: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 

Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 tr=
ain - with LW4o6



    > On 2 Jul 2018, at 07:28, Fred Baker  wrote:

    >=20

    > On Jul 1, 2018, at 7:53 PM, George Michaelson  wrot=
e:

    >> I know its "wrong" but I sympathise with a tech journalist seeking

    >> clarity in this. The edge user situation is very hard to distinguish

    >> in both cases, the user functionally can see both Ipv4 and Ipv6

    >> resources. How is this not "dual" in the sense a man or woman in the

    >> street would understand it?

    >=20

    > Of course. From the perspective of a residential - or enterprise - us=
er, they have both IPv4 and IPv6, and the network is carrying them. So from=
 their perspective they retain dual stack capabilities in the near term. Ho=
wever, here's another factoid.

    >=20

    > For the residential user, the number of services that actually requir=
e IPv4 is relatively small. I mentioned home security as a market that requ=
ired the ability to make an IPv4 connection to the home. Suppose that could=
 be changed? One way to change that would be for a few large ISPs to convin=
ce companies like LINK or ADT to become IPv6-capable, whereupon it becomes =
a market requirement for their competitors.

   =20

    Sadly I don't see my TV upgrading itself to IPv6 any time soon; that wi=
ll happen when I buy a new TV, in maybe 10 years time.  Streamed iPlayer an=
d other video content to that TV is more than half of my home network traff=
ic.

   =20

    As for charging more, how would a customer know what devices support IP=
v4 and/or IPv6, or need IPv4?  Why should they care?  "We're charging you a=
n extra $5/mo because you have v4 traffic" isn't helpful.=20

   =20

    > The ISP has just made having IPv4 at all a second priority for them; =
it's in their interest to move residential/soho/enterprise to IPv6, with th=
e goal of removing the final translation step. I would expect their next mo=
ve to be to charge for the service, and if possible move it to the edge its=
elf  - which is where draft-*-v6ops-nat64-deployment is going. The transiti=
on rolls out from there.

    >=20

    > The more outfits that find it in their interest to be able to operate=
 without IPv4 at all, the better this is for all of us. And this becomes an=
 important step in the general transition.

   =20

    I agree with the rest of what you say, but in a home network situation,=
 there's going to be a lot of legacy IPv4 traffic externally, just look at =
https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.05368 for example.

   =20

    Tim

   =20

    _______________________________________________

    v6ops mailing list

    v6ops@ietf.org

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

   =20




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To: Richard Patterson , "v6ops@ietf.org list" , "intarea-chairs@ietf.org" , "dhcwg@ietf.org" 
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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health-03.txt
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From: Fred Baker 
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
To: Tim Chown 
References: <057742AA-226E-44F8-819E-C865D7F58758@gmail.com>    <6E48293C-17F9-4376-9E2A-B87903093953@gmail.com> <81806D25-C609-4D05-8BD9-BBA75E5609C0@jisc.ac.uk>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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> On Jul 2, 2018, at 1:16 AM, Tim Chown  wrote:
>> For the residential user, the number of services that actually =
require IPv4 is relatively small. I mentioned home security as a market =
that required the ability to make an IPv4 connection to the home. =
Suppose that could be changed? One way to change that would be for a few =
large ISPs to convince companies like LINK or ADT to become =
IPv6-capable, whereupon it becomes a market requirement for their =
competitors.
>=20
> Sadly I don't see my TV upgrading itself to IPv6 any time soon; that =
will happen when I buy a new TV, in maybe 10 years time.  Streamed =
iPlayer and other video content to that TV is more than half of my home =
network traffic.

True, but they can survive quite well with RFC 6092, which calls on the =
host attaching to such a service to connect to the CDN or other service. =
If there is a CPE translator, they'll be find in an otherwise IPv6-only =
network. Where I'm worried is an application that uses IPv4 to connect =
to the host in the home/SOHO/enterprise, such as surveillance system you =
can monitor from your handset (dynamic DNS creating an A record plus a =
firewall hole punch using PCP or equivalent).

> I agree with the rest of what you say, but in a home network =
situation, there's going to be a lot of legacy IPv4 traffic externally, =
just look at https://arxiv.org/abs/1803.05368 for example.

How much that isn't initiated from the home?

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From: Fred Baker 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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On Jun 30, 2018, at 12:16 AM, Fred Baker  =
wrote:
>> Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with =
LW4o6 https://news360.com/article/460267064
>=20
> IPv6 in the press. Thinking about this as we approach IETF 102, where =
IPv4 overlaid on or translated to IPv6 is on the agenda.

For the record, the thing I found interesting here wasn't hearing that =
someone was deploying it. It was where I found it.

I have an application on my telephone (I imagine many of us do) that =
gives me a selection of news articles to read every day. Articles about =
Israel come from the Jerusalem Post or Haaretz. The editor seems to =
really like BBC and Reuters, which is fine by me, as I find American =
news sources very beltway-centric (if Mr Trump isn't mentioned, the =
editor considers the article to be "not worth reading"). There are =
occasionally US news sources as well, and AL-Jezerah. I read about =
asteroids that come closer to the Earth than the moon - regularly - and =
a variety of other topics. Some have to do with Christianity, which is =
something important to me, and some have to do with technology, often =
BitCoin or other buzzword-level topics.

I rarely read about the Internet, and if I do, it's not anything I would =
consider "news". Maybe the fact that the Internet Society chose a new =
CEO (congratulations, Andrew!). But not much.

An IPv6-only network is "news" coming from that perspective. So I found =
this very interesting in that editorial context. The editor, I gather, =
thought that this was less esoteric than a discussion from a scientific =
journal filled with words that are unpronounceable by mere mortals, =
which I get pretty regularly.

Let me put this into context. In the 1980's and early 1990's, I didn't =
usually tell people what I did for a living. If I said the then-current =
vernacular for "software engineer", I would get asked applications layer =
questions like "so why can't my bank balance my checkbook?". "Gee, I =
dunno, I don't do that." I would tell people that I taught computers to =
talk amongst themselves, and people would think I was really strange.

In 1994, I was walking on State Street (what Santa Barbara calls "Main =
Street") and watched a bus pass by. End to end, the side of the bus =
displayed a lipstick ad, on which the only writing was a URL. Obviously, =
someone was test marketing: "if we show this ad, what happens nest?". =
Well, no woman equipped with a right mind buys lipstick from either an =
ad on a bus or a URL; they go to a store and look at the colors. But it =
set me thinking: maybe my technology is now mainstream enough that I can =
mention the Internet and people will have a clue. Sometimes.

So for a number of years, I would respond to
	"what do you do for a living"
with
	"you know what the Internet is, right?"
Depending on the response, I might actually answer, or might say
	"well, I teach computers to converse amongst themselves".
More often the latter than the former...

In 2000, I sat down in a prayer meeting next to a college coed.
	"What do you do for a living?"
	"Well, you know what the Internet is, right?"
	"That's so condescending!"

Now (2018) I tell people what I do for a living. But that was easily 20 =
years into actually doing it.

Thinking about where this goes next.

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From nobody Mon Jul  2 02:39:40 2018
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From: 
To: Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
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Hi Jordi, all,

V6ops has published "NAT64 Deployment Options and Experience" (RFC7269). Yo=
u may want position your draft vs. that RFC.=20

Thank you.=20

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Fred Baker
> Envoy=E9=A0: lundi 2 juillet 2018 02:42
> =C0=A0: v6ops@ietf.org list
> Objet=A0: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
>=20
> OK, I see enough interest in taking this to the next step. I have instruc=
ted
> Jordi to refile draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment as draft-ietf-v6ops-na=
t64-
> deployment.
>=20
> > On Jul 1, 2018, at 10:18 AM, Yannis Nikolopoulos  wro=
te:
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > as with all such documents, this has a potential to help those starting
> with such a transition. So, I support the draft's intention
> >
> > regards,
> >
> > Yannis
> >
> > On 06/27/2018 08:04 PM, Fred Baker wrote:
> >> Chair comment: I am interested in making this draft a working group dr=
aft.
> I think there is merit in it to do so. However, following our usual proce=
ss,
> I need agreement from the working group. Consider this a solicitation for
> that. To do so, I'm looking for comments, supportive or otherwise, especi=
ally
> from operators. To respond to Barbara's question that she raised with
> ipv4aas, making it a working group document doesn't mean it's done, it me=
ans
> it's a work item as opposed to a suggestion to the working group.


From nobody Mon Jul  2 02:56:57 2018
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Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 11:56:50 +0200
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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>>>From a pure network operations perspective, dual-stack is rarely the best
>> solution. It is much cheaper and operationally simpler to support only IPv6
>> in the network and run IPv4 on top of it.
>
>I doubt that this generalisation is true everywhere, and what happens inside
>the network and what is presented to the transport layer in the host are two
>different things. As long as it *looks* like a dual stack at the socket API,
>that's fine.

There are plenty of ISPs that offer one or even multiple static IPv4 addresses
to customers and where customers are using those to run services locally.

As far as I know there are no RFCs that describe how to run such a setup
with IPv4 as a service. But maybe I missed something.



From nobody Mon Jul  2 04:02:45 2018
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Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 13:02:15 +0200
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: , Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
Message-ID: <1F8254E0-D425-486A-B744-EDA836266D99@consulintel.es>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
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Thanks Med,



Sure, will do. Working already in an updated version, hopefully I can inclu=
de it before the cut-off.



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: v6ops  en nombre de 

Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 11:40

Para: Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org list" 

Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments



    Hi Jordi, all,

   =20

    V6ops has published "NAT64 Deployment Options and Experience" (RFC7269)=
. You may want position your draft vs. that RFC.=20

   =20

    Thank you.=20

   =20

    Cheers,

    Med

   =20

    > -----Message d'origine-----

    > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Fred Baker

    > Envoy=C3=A9 : lundi 2 juillet 2018 02:42

    > =C3=80 : v6ops@ietf.org list

    > Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments

    >=20

    > OK, I see enough interest in taking this to the next step. I have ins=
tructed

    > Jordi to refile draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment as draft-ietf-v6op=
s-nat64-

    > deployment.

    >=20

    > > On Jul 1, 2018, at 10:18 AM, Yannis Nikolopoulos =
 wrote:

    > >

    > > Hello,

    > >

    > > as with all such documents, this has a potential to help those star=
ting

    > with such a transition. So, I support the draft's intention

    > >

    > > regards,

    > >

    > > Yannis

    > >

    > > On 06/27/2018 08:04 PM, Fred Baker wrote:

    > >> Chair comment: I am interested in making this draft a working grou=
p draft.

    > I think there is merit in it to do so. However, following our usual p=
rocess,

    > I need agreement from the working group. Consider this a solicitation=
 for

    > that. To do so, I'm looking for comments, supportive or otherwise, es=
pecially

    > from operators. To respond to Barbara's question that she raised with

    > ipv4aas, making it a working group document doesn't mean it's done, i=
t means

    > it's a work item as opposed to a suggestion to the working group.

   =20

    _______________________________________________

    v6ops mailing list

    v6ops@ietf.org

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

   =20




**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
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The IPv6 Company

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Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 13:04:34 +0200
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: Philip Homburg , 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
References: <057742AA-226E-44F8-819E-C865D7F58758@gmail.com>   <0b378e30-bbef-0b59-866a-103353225256@gmail.com> 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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I will say that this is possible in every IPv4aaS mechanism, it is a matter=
 of the configuration at the ISP side. I've tested it with one persistent I=
P, but I'm sure it can be done with multiple as well.



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: v6ops  en nombre de Philip Homburg 

Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 11:57

Para: 

Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 tr=
ain - with LW4o6



    >>>From a pure network operations perspective, dual-stack is rarely the=
 best

    >> solution. It is much cheaper and operationally simpler to support on=
ly IPv6

    >> in the network and run IPv4 on top of it.

    >

    >I doubt that this generalisation is true everywhere, and what happens =
inside

    >the network and what is presented to the transport layer in the host a=
re two

    >different things. As long as it *looks* like a dual stack at the socke=
t API,

    >that's fine.

   =20

    There are plenty of ISPs that offer one or even multiple static IPv4 ad=
dresses

    to customers and where customers are using those to run services locall=
y.

   =20

    As far as I know there are no RFCs that describe how to run such a setu=
p

    with IPv4 as a service. But maybe I missed something.

   =20

   =20

    _______________________________________________

    v6ops mailing list

    v6ops@ietf.org

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

   =20




**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.consulintel.es
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, =
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p=
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ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.




From nobody Mon Jul  2 04:22:57 2018
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References: <057742AA-226E-44F8-819E-C865D7F58758@gmail.com>    <6E48293C-17F9-4376-9E2A-B87903093953@gmail.com>
To: Fred Baker 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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> On 2 Jul 2018, at 09:28, Fred Baker  wrote:
>=20
> The ISP has just made having IPv4 at all a second priority for them; it's i=
n their interest to move residential/soho/enterprise to IPv6, with the goal o=
f removing the final translation step. I would expect their next move to be t=
o charge for the service, and if possible move it to the edge itself  - whic=
h is where draft-*-v6ops-nat64-deployment is going. The transition rolls out=
 from there.

That=E2=80=99s a bit like saying that an ISP using MPLS tunneling, has made I=
P second priority.

Ole=


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To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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> On 2 Jul 2018, at 14:04, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ  wrote:
>=20
> I will say that this is possible in every IPv4aaS mechanism, it is a matte=
r of the configuration at the ISP side. I've tested it with one persistent I=
P, but I'm sure it can be done with multiple as well.

Incorrect.=20
MAP-E/T has explicit support for full IPv4 addresses or an IPv4 prefix. LW46=
 supports full IPv4 address, and can in theory support prefix, although not s=
pecified in 7596.=20

DS-lite, 464XLAT can not.=20

Ole

>=20
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Jordi
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----
>=20
> De: v6ops  en nombre de Philip Homburg 
>=20
> Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 11:57
>=20
> Para: 
>=20
> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 t=
rain - with LW4o6
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>>> =46rom a pure network operations perspective, dual-stack is rarely the b=
est
>=20
>>> solution. It is much cheaper and operationally simpler to support only I=
Pv6
>=20
>>> in the network and run IPv4 on top of it.
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> I doubt that this generalisation is true everywhere, and what happens ins=
ide
>=20
>> the network and what is presented to the transport layer in the host are t=
wo
>=20
>> different things. As long as it *looks* like a dual stack at the socket A=
PI,
>=20
>> that's fine.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>    There are plenty of ISPs that offer one or even multiple static IPv4 ad=
dresses
>=20
>    to customers and where customers are using those to run services locall=
y.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>    As far as I know there are no RFCs that describe how to run such a setu=
p
>=20
>    with IPv4 as a service. But maybe I missed something.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>    _______________________________________________
>=20
>    v6ops mailing list
>=20
>    v6ops@ietf.org
>=20
>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.consulintel.es
> The IPv6 Company
>=20
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or co=
nfidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, c=
opying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if par=
tially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be conside=
red a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that a=
ny disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this informat=
ion, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, wi=
ll be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sende=
r to inform about this communication and delete it.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


From nobody Mon Jul  2 04:37:09 2018
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Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 13:36:59 +0200
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: Ole Troan , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
CC: 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
References: <057742AA-226E-44F8-819E-C865D7F58758@gmail.com>   <0b378e30-bbef-0b59-866a-103353225256@gmail.com>   <95A8BA2F-7DD2-4E3F-A2BE-166B5E6C6743@employees.org>
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I've not tried with DS-Lite, but I tried with 464XLAT and you can do it, de=
pending on the NAT64 arrangements. Is not specified in the RFC, same as in =
the case of lw4o6.



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: v6ops  en nombre de Ole Troan 

Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 13:34

Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 

CC: 

Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 tr=
ain - with LW4o6



   =20

   =20

    > On 2 Jul 2018, at 14:04, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ  wrote:

    >=20

    > I will say that this is possible in every IPv4aaS mechanism, it is a =
matter of the configuration at the ISP side. I've tested it with one persis=
tent IP, but I'm sure it can be done with multiple as well.

   =20

    Incorrect.=20

    MAP-E/T has explicit support for full IPv4 addresses or an IPv4 prefix.=
 LW46 supports full IPv4 address, and can in theory support prefix, althoug=
h not specified in 7596.=20

   =20

    DS-lite, 464XLAT can not.=20

   =20

    Ole

   =20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > Regards,

    >=20

    > Jordi

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

    >=20

    > De: v6ops  en nombre de Philip Homburg 

    >=20

    > Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 11:57

    >=20

    > Para: 

    >=20

    > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the I=
Pv6 train - with LW4o6

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >>>> From a pure network operations perspective, dual-stack is rarely t=
he best

    >=20

    >>> solution. It is much cheaper and operationally simpler to support o=
nly IPv6

    >=20

    >>> in the network and run IPv4 on top of it.

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >> I doubt that this generalisation is true everywhere, and what happen=
s inside

    >=20

    >> the network and what is presented to the transport layer in the host=
 are two

    >=20

    >> different things. As long as it *looks* like a dual stack at the soc=
ket API,

    >=20

    >> that's fine.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >    There are plenty of ISPs that offer one or even multiple static IP=
v4 addresses

    >=20

    >    to customers and where customers are using those to run services l=
ocally.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >    As far as I know there are no RFCs that describe how to run such a=
 setup

    >=20

    >    with IPv4 as a service. But maybe I missed something.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >    _______________________________________________

    >=20

    >    v6ops mailing list

    >=20

    >    v6ops@ietf.org

    >=20

    >    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > **********************************************

    > IPv4 is over

    > Are you ready for the new Internet ?

    > http://www.consulintel.es

    > The IPv6 Company

    >=20

    > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged =
or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of=
 the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclo=
sure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve=
n if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will b=
e considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be a=
ware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of t=
his information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly p=
rohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the =
original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > _______________________________________________

    > v6ops mailing list

    > v6ops@ietf.org

    > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

   =20

    _______________________________________________

    v6ops mailing list

    v6ops@ietf.org

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

   =20




**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.consulintel.es
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, =
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p=
artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons=
idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t=
hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in=
formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi=
ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.




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From: Ole Troan 
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Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 14:44:11 +0300
Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , v6ops@ietf.org
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References: <057742AA-226E-44F8-819E-C865D7F58758@gmail.com>   <0b378e30-bbef-0b59-866a-103353225256@gmail.com>   <95A8BA2F-7DD2-4E3F-A2BE-166B5E6C6743@employees.org> 
To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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And how do you provision a global IPv4 prefix with 464XLAT?

Ole

> On 2 Jul 2018, at 14:36, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ =
 wrote:
>=20
> I've not tried with DS-Lite, but I tried with 464XLAT and you can do it, d=
epending on the NAT64 arrangements. Is not specified in the RFC, same as in t=
he case of lw4o6.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Jordi
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----
>=20
> De: v6ops  en nombre de Ole Troan 
>=20
> Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 13:34
>=20
> Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ =

>=20
> CC: 
>=20
> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 t=
rain - with LW4o6
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>> On 2 Jul 2018, at 14:04, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ  wrote:
>>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> I will say that this is possible in every IPv4aaS mechanism, it is a matt=
er of the configuration at the ISP side. I've tested it with one persistent I=
P, but I'm sure it can be done with multiple as well.
>=20
>=20
>=20
>    Incorrect.=20
>=20
>    MAP-E/T has explicit support for full IPv4 addresses or an IPv4 prefix.=
 LW46 supports full IPv4 address, and can in theory support prefix, although=
 not specified in 7596.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>    DS-lite, 464XLAT can not.=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>    Ole
>=20
>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> Regards,
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> Jordi
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> De: v6ops  en nombre de Philip Homburg 
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 11:57
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> Para: 
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 t=
rain - with LW4o6
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>>>> =46rom a pure network operations perspective, dual-stack is rarely the=
 best
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>>> solution. It is much cheaper and operationally simpler to support only I=
Pv6
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>>> in the network and run IPv4 on top of it.
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>> I doubt that this generalisation is true everywhere, and what happens in=
side
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>> the network and what is presented to the transport layer in the host are=
 two
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>> different things. As long as it *looks* like a dual stack at the socket A=
PI,
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>> that's fine.
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>   There are plenty of ISPs that offer one or even multiple static IPv4 ad=
dresses
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>   to customers and where customers are using those to run services locall=
y.
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>   As far as I know there are no RFCs that describe how to run such a setu=
p
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>   with IPv4 as a service. But maybe I missed something.
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>   _______________________________________________
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>   v6ops mailing list
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>   v6ops@ietf.org
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> **********************************************
>=20
>> IPv4 is over
>=20
>> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>=20
>> http://www.consulintel.es
>=20
>> The IPv6 Company
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or c=
onfidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, c=
opying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if par=
tially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be conside=
red a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that a=
ny disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this informat=
ion, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, wi=
ll be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sende=
r to inform about this communication and delete it.
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>>=20
>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>=20
>> v6ops mailing list
>=20
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>=20
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20
>=20
>=20
>    _______________________________________________
>=20
>    v6ops mailing list
>=20
>    v6ops@ietf.org
>=20
>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.consulintel.es
> The IPv6 Company
>=20
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or co=
nfidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, c=
opying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if par=
tially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be conside=
red a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that a=
ny disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this informat=
ion, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, wi=
ll be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sende=
r to inform about this communication and delete it.
>=20
>=20
>=20


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Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 13:50:08 +0200
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: Ole Troan 
CC: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , 
Message-ID: <199036D6-FE22-469E-B808-F0BD5C32F2DE@consulintel.es>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
References: <057742AA-226E-44F8-819E-C865D7F58758@gmail.com>   <0b378e30-bbef-0b59-866a-103353225256@gmail.com>   <95A8BA2F-7DD2-4E3F-A2BE-166B5E6C6743@employees.org>  
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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I only tested a single address, not a prefix, and in this case was done for=
 a few specific business customers, in the context of a big 464XLAT trial, =
so it was a manual configuration, and DMZ/port forwarding to the services r=
equired inside the business customer network.



I'm sure we can find a way, if this is interesting, to make it fully automa=
ted.=20



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: Ole Troan 

Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 13:44

Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 

CC: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , <=
v6ops@ietf.org>

Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 tr=
ain - with LW4o6



    And how do you provision a global IPv4 prefix with 464XLAT?

   =20

    Ole

   =20

    > On 2 Jul 2018, at 14:36, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ  wrote:

    >=20

    > I've not tried with DS-Lite, but I tried with 464XLAT and you can do =
it, depending on the NAT64 arrangements. Is not specified in the RFC, same =
as in the case of lw4o6.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > Regards,

    >=20

    > Jordi

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

    >=20

    > De: v6ops  en nombre de Ole Troan 

    >=20

    > Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 13:34

    >=20

    > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 

    >=20

    > CC: 

    >=20

    > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the I=
Pv6 train - with LW4o6

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >>> On 2 Jul 2018, at 14:04, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ  wrote:

    >>=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >> I will say that this is possible in every IPv4aaS mechanism, it is a=
 matter of the configuration at the ISP side. I've tested it with one persi=
stent IP, but I'm sure it can be done with multiple as well.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >    Incorrect.=20

    >=20

    >    MAP-E/T has explicit support for full IPv4 addresses or an IPv4 pr=
efix. LW46 supports full IPv4 address, and can in theory support prefix, al=
though not specified in 7596.=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >    DS-lite, 464XLAT can not.=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >    Ole

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >> Regards,

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >> Jordi

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >> =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >> De: v6ops  en nombre de Philip Homburg 

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >> Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 11:57

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >> Para: 

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the =
IPv6 train - with LW4o6

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>>>> From a pure network operations perspective, dual-stack is rarely =
the best

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>>> solution. It is much cheaper and operationally simpler to support =
only IPv6

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>>> in the network and run IPv4 on top of it.

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>> I doubt that this generalisation is true everywhere, and what happe=
ns inside

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>> the network and what is presented to the transport layer in the hos=
t are two

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>> different things. As long as it *looks* like a dual stack at the so=
cket API,

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>> that's fine.

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>   There are plenty of ISPs that offer one or even multiple static IP=
v4 addresses

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>   to customers and where customers are using those to run services l=
ocally.

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>   As far as I know there are no RFCs that describe how to run such a=
 setup

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>   with IPv4 as a service. But maybe I missed something.

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>   _______________________________________________

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>   v6ops mailing list

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>   v6ops@ietf.org

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >> **********************************************

    >=20

    >> IPv4 is over

    >=20

    >> Are you ready for the new Internet ?

    >=20

    >> http://www.consulintel.es

    >=20

    >> The IPv6 Company

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged=
 or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use o=
f the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized discl=
osure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, ev=
en if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will =
be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be =
aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of =
this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly =
prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the=
 original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >>=20

    >=20

    >> _______________________________________________

    >=20

    >> v6ops mailing list

    >=20

    >> v6ops@ietf.org

    >=20

    >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >    _______________________________________________

    >=20

    >    v6ops mailing list

    >=20

    >    v6ops@ietf.org

    >=20

    >    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > **********************************************

    > IPv4 is over

    > Are you ready for the new Internet ?

    > http://www.consulintel.es

    > The IPv6 Company

    >=20

    > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged =
or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of=
 the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclo=
sure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve=
n if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will b=
e considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be a=
ware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of t=
his information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly p=
rohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the =
original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

   =20

   =20




**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.consulintel.es
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, =
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p=
artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons=
idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t=
hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in=
formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi=
ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.




From nobody Mon Jul  2 06:43:59 2018
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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Hi,

This discussion is definitely useful for our planned draft "Pros and 
Cons of IPv6 Transition Technologies for IPv4aaS". :-)

I hope to send the first version of our table for crowd source 
information collection to the v6ops list next week...

Gábor

7/2/2018 1:50 PM keltezéssel, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ írta:
> I only tested a single address, not a prefix, and in this case was done for a few specific business customers, in the context of a big 464XLAT trial, so it was a manual configuration, and DMZ/port forwarding to the services required inside the business customer network.
>
>
>
> I'm sure we can find a way, if this is interesting, to make it fully automated.
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
>   
>
>   
>
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
>
> De: Ole Troan 
>
> Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 13:44
>
> Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
>
> CC: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , 
>
> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
>
>
>
>      And how do you provision a global IPv4 prefix with 464XLAT?
>
>      
>
>      Ole
>
>      
>
>      > On 2 Jul 2018, at 14:36, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ  wrote:
>
>      >
>
>      > I've not tried with DS-Lite, but I tried with 464XLAT and you can do it, depending on the NAT64 arrangements. Is not specified in the RFC, same as in the case of lw4o6.
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      > Regards,
>
>      >
>
>      > Jordi
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      > -----Mensaje original-----
>
>      >
>
>      > De: v6ops  en nombre de Ole Troan 
>
>      >
>
>      > Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 13:34
>
>      >
>
>      > Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
>
>      >
>
>      > CC: 
>
>      >
>
>      > Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >>> On 2 Jul 2018, at 14:04, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ  wrote:
>
>      >>
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >> I will say that this is possible in every IPv4aaS mechanism, it is a matter of the configuration at the ISP side. I've tested it with one persistent IP, but I'm sure it can be done with multiple as well.
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >    Incorrect.
>
>      >
>
>      >    MAP-E/T has explicit support for full IPv4 addresses or an IPv4 prefix. LW46 supports full IPv4 address, and can in theory support prefix, although not specified in 7596.
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >    DS-lite, 464XLAT can not.
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >    Ole
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >> Regards,
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >> Jordi
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >> -----Mensaje original-----
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >> De: v6ops  en nombre de Philip Homburg 
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >> Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 11:57
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >> Para: 
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>>>> From a pure network operations perspective, dual-stack is rarely the best
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>>> solution. It is much cheaper and operationally simpler to support only IPv6
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>>> in the network and run IPv4 on top of it.
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>> I doubt that this generalisation is true everywhere, and what happens inside
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>> the network and what is presented to the transport layer in the host are two
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>> different things. As long as it *looks* like a dual stack at the socket API,
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>> that's fine.
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>   There are plenty of ISPs that offer one or even multiple static IPv4 addresses
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>   to customers and where customers are using those to run services locally.
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>   As far as I know there are no RFCs that describe how to run such a setup
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>   with IPv4 as a service. But maybe I missed something.
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>   _______________________________________________
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>   v6ops mailing list
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>   v6ops@ietf.org
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>   https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >> **********************************************
>
>      >
>
>      >> IPv4 is over
>
>      >
>
>      >> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>
>      >
>
>      >> http://www.consulintel.es
>
>      >
>
>      >> The IPv6 Company
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >>
>
>      >
>
>      >> _______________________________________________
>
>      >
>
>      >> v6ops mailing list
>
>      >
>
>      >> v6ops@ietf.org
>
>      >
>
>      >> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >    _______________________________________________
>
>      >
>
>      >    v6ops mailing list
>
>      >
>
>      >    v6ops@ietf.org
>
>      >
>
>      >    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      > **********************************************
>
>      > IPv4 is over
>
>      > Are you ready for the new Internet ?
>
>      > http://www.consulintel.es
>
>      > The IPv6 Company
>
>      >
>
>      > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      >
>
>      
>
>      
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.consulintel.es
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


From nobody Mon Jul  2 07:09:53 2018
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To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Time to dump dual-stack networks and get on the IPv6 train - with LW4o6
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> On 2 Jul 2018, at 14:50, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ =
 wrote:
>=20
> I'm sure we can find a way, if this is interesting, to make it fully autom=
ated.=20

We already did. See 7599/7598. That=E2=80=99s called MAP-T. 464XLAT is just d=
ouble translation with a limited form of provisioning.=20

Ole=


From nobody Mon Jul  2 11:04:44 2018
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Subject: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00.txt
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF.

        Title           : NAT64/464XLAT Deployment Guidelines in Operator and Enterprise Networks
        Author          : Jordi Palet Martinez
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00.txt
	Pages           : 34
	Date            : 2018-07-02

Abstract:
   This document describes how NAT64 and 464XLAT can be deployed in an
   IPv6 network, whether cellular ISP, broadband ISP, or enterprise and
   the issues to be considered when having an IPv6-only access link,
   regarding: a) DNS64, b) applications or devices that use literal IPv4
   addresses or non-IPv6 compliant APIs, and c) IPv4-only hosts or
   applications.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


From nobody Mon Jul  2 11:21:37 2018
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From: Richard Patterson 
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 19:21:19 +0100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health-03.txt
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Hi Med,

Thanks once again for your review, comments, and support.
I'll address your bullet points in-line below.  I'll try to get a -04
out incorporating your feedback before the cut off.


On Mon, 2 Jul 2018 at 09:29,  wrote:
> The main comments:
> * Use 3 as default retry interval value (consistent with BBF TR-124 and some existing implementations).

Have reworded the parameter definition to:
- Limit (Integer): The number of failed consecutive checks before an
action is taken. Default value: 3.

> * Generalize the procedure to cover any dynamic configuration means (DHCP, as an example among others).

I agree for the most part, but I'm unsure about considering TR-69 as
dynamically signalled.  I was treating TR-69 as a method for local
configuration (which we've now changed to static in -03).
I think the idea is the same though, so I'll work your suggested wording in.

> * Add a guard to prevent loopback and multicast addresses as alternate target @

Is saying that the field must be a unicast address sufficient, or do
you want to specifically call out loopbacks and multicast?

> * Double check some part of the text to reflect that both interval and retry-interval are now used.
>
> I do support this effort to be adopted in dhcwg or int-area.
>
> Cheers,
> Med


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From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: 
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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00.txt
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Hi Fred, all,



I just submitted it, tried to address your comments and added a section for=
 DNS privacy (addressing the comments for DoH, but also applied to other DN=
S privacy protocols, which I think have the same issues). Basically, they a=
re the same issues as if the user changes the DNS (what I call "Manual Conf=
iguration of Foreign DNS").



https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment/



I tried to address also other few comments received the last days, but didn=
't have sufficient time to double-check that all them are done.



I think possible new sections may be related to expanding the (actual annex=
) benchmarking and may be explaining possible approaches for HA/redundancy =
of the NAT64/DNS64. I will work on that ASAP.



Any other ideas from the WG about what is missing or should be revised?



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: v6ops  en nombre de 

Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 20:05

Para: 

CC: 

Asunto: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00.txt



   =20

    A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts dire=
ctories.

    This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF.

   =20

            Title           : NAT64/464XLAT Deployment Guidelines in Operat=
or and Enterprise Networks

            Author          : Jordi Palet Martinez

    	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00.txt

    	Pages           : 34

    	Date            : 2018-07-02

   =20

    Abstract:

       This document describes how NAT64 and 464XLAT can be deployed in an

       IPv6 network, whether cellular ISP, broadband ISP, or enterprise and

       the issues to be considered when having an IPv6-only access link,

       regarding: a) DNS64, b) applications or devices that use literal IPv=
4

       addresses or non-IPv6 compliant APIs, and c) IPv4-only hosts or

       applications.

   =20

   =20

    The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment/

   =20

    There are also htmlized versions available at:

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment=
-00

   =20

   =20

    Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi=
ssion

    until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

   =20

    Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:

    ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

   =20

    _______________________________________________

    v6ops mailing list

    v6ops@ietf.org

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

   =20




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From: Richard Patterson 
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 20:02:35 +0100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health-02.txt
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Hi Dusan,

I haven't had a chance to mock up these diagrams that you've requested.

Is the current narrative unclear enough that we need all these
diagrams? Is there any alternative wording that might help?
Are you thinking topology, or rather state/swimlane style diagrams?

-Richard
On Tue, 19 Jun 2018 at 17:40, Mudric, Dusan (Dusan)  wro=
te:
>
> Hi Richard,
>
> I have a few more comments:
>
> -       What is the behavior for =E2=80=9CIf the IPoE client is already i=
n the renew or rebind state when Behaviour 2 is triggered=E2=80=9D? Should =
it be the same as Behavior 3?
> -       SHOULD the client use RAPID COMMIT option for Behaviors 2 and 3?
>
> -       Missing a diagram for the problem statement: Can you show please,=
 using a simple diagram, how DHCPv6 lease  becomes stale?
> -       Provide diagrams for all options, showing how a client recovers a=
fter an edge router outage. For example, if 3.3 ND NUD finds the edge route=
r is unreachable, show the benefits of RENEW and SOLICIT options and how th=
e client will communicate to off-link destinations using the old or a new D=
HCPv6 address.
> -       Provide a diagram showing how a router outage between a Relay Age=
nt and ISP can be detected (i.e. RA from the edge router) and how the clien=
t can recover connectivity to off-link destinations.
>
> Regards,
> Dusan.
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Richard
> > Patterson
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 19, 2018 12:15 PM
> > To: v6ops@ietf.org list 
> > Subject: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-patterson-intarea-i=
poe-
> > health-02.txt
> >
> > Thanks for the comments on and off the v6ops list, we've published a
> > new version of draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health.
> > The major changes can summarised as:
> >  - Emphasised preference for use of BFD echo as the health check
> > mechanism.
> >  - Removed lifetime expiration from Behaviour 2 and clarified usage.
> >  - Updated Behaviour 3 with instructions for whilst mid-renew/rebind.
> >  - Reworded multihoming section.
> >  - Added Acknowledgements.
> >
> > Please continue providing feedback, and if anyone has a relationship
> > with DHCP client developers, or CPE vendors, we'd love to start a
> > dialogue there too.
> >
> > -Richard
> >
> >
> > =EF=BB=BFOn 19/06/2018, 17:07, "internet-drafts@ietf.org"
> >  wrote:
> >
> >
> >     A new version of I-D, draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health-02.txt
> >     has been successfully submitted by Richard Patterson and posted to =
the
> >     IETF repository.
> >
> >     Name:draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health
> >     Revision:02
> >     Title:IPoE Client Health Checking
> >     Document date:2018-06-19
> >     Group:Individual Submission
> >     Pages:13
> >     URL:
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__www.ietf.org_internet-2Ddrafts_draft-2Dpatterson-2Dintarea-2Dipoe-
> > 2Dhealth-
> > 2D02.txt&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=3DUT3Bk9cbLeaJxhf3iC
> > rhIoUWB8YLZU23029sMQGQ2kY&m=3DFJwQBzILW8V8e-
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> > F6F67UYa7QvoYqztNWIJaxqLEno&e=3D
> >     Status:
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_draft-2Dpatterson-2Dintarea-2Dipoe-
> > 2Dhealth_&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=3DUT3Bk9cbLeaJxhf3
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> > CS3zwIAOYxY6Ps&e=3D
> >     Htmlized:
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__tools.ietf.org_html_draft-2Dpatterson-2Dintarea-2Dipoe-2Dhealth-
> > 2D02&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=3DUT3Bk9cbLeaJxhf3iCrhI
> > oUWB8YLZU23029sMQGQ2kY&m=3DFJwQBzILW8V8e-
> > 2AqJY0R5EYzgeOPNYEjbQNZVrGXAA&s=3DbxaObQg7CeYxZYVk-DrSo0sni-
> > BAS8x3Mwh7u4lJx5g&e=3D
> >     Htmlized:
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__datatracker.ietf.org_doc_html_draft-2Dpatterson-2Dintarea-2Dipoe-
> > 2Dhealth&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=3DUT3Bk9cbLeaJxhf3i
> > CrhIoUWB8YLZU23029sMQGQ2kY&m=3DFJwQBzILW8V8e-
> > 2AqJY0R5EYzgeOPNYEjbQNZVrGXAA&s=3Dg-
> > iDyHsg_HC3Hm4GDywY1OczDjzknyiSlKLbOI5ZMX8&e=3D
> >     Diff:
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__www.ietf.org_rfcdiff-3Furl2-3Ddraft-2Dpatterson-2Dintarea-2Dipoe-
> > 2Dhealth-
> > 2D02&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKpl1SgiZH64Q&r=3DUT3Bk9cbLeaJxhf3iCrhI
> > oUWB8YLZU23029sMQGQ2kY&m=3DFJwQBzILW8V8e-
> > 2AqJY0R5EYzgeOPNYEjbQNZVrGXAA&s=3D1AjfSVnLtdB6QP659cG8DnYEu12Bb
> > DzQKSG6zZM_bOY&e=3D
> >
> >     Abstract:
> >        PPP over Ethernet clients have the functionality to detect path
> >        unavailability by using PPP Keepalives.  IP over Ethernet does n=
ot
> >        have this functionality, and it's not specified when an IP over
> >        Ethernet client should consider its WAN connectivity down, unles=
s
> >        there is a physical layer link down event.
> >
> >        This document describes a way for IP over Ethernet clients to ac=
hieve
> >        connectivity validation, similar to that of PPP over Ethernet, b=
y
> >        using BFD Echo, or ARP and Neighbor Discovery functions.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >     Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of
> > submission
> >     until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org=
.
> >
> >     The IETF Secretariat
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=3Dhttps-
> > 3A__www.ietf.org_mailman_listinfo_v6ops&d=3DDwIGaQ&c=3DBFpWQw8bsuKp
> > l1SgiZH64Q&r=3DUT3Bk9cbLeaJxhf3iCrhIoUWB8YLZU23029sMQGQ2kY&m=3DFJw
> > QBzILW8V8e-
> > 2AqJY0R5EYzgeOPNYEjbQNZVrGXAA&s=3D10QVM0z8_GmvllVmpYP3ok2y4lhX
> > bM1oAYgbqrZFark&e=3D


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From: Fred Baker 
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Cc: v6ops@ietf.org
To: =?utf-8?Q?Lencse_G=C3=A1bor?= 
References: <663F489C-7F63-4B0C-A5E6-F7EE4634E62B@gmail.com> <6ac32868-e0eb-00b7-2c3e-29c33c168323@hit.bme.hu>
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I think your sketch is fine. There is one issue: the DNS64 has to =
perform address synthesis in the sense RFC 6877 uses the term. Yes, it =
will connect to the IPv4 network to access DNS and retrieve A records, =
and the IPv6 network to respond to DNS requests. It could also access =
the IPv6 network to get the relevant IPv6 prefix. In a network with =
multiple such prefixes, that could also be "interesting". I note that =
NAT64 implementations frequently have associated DNS64 implementations - =
not required, but simplifies knowing the relevant prefix. I connected =
DNS64 to the PLAT on the assumption that the PLAT talks to both, but =
certainly the drawing could show those directly.

> On Jun 28, 2018, at 12:46 PM, Lencse G=C3=A1bor  =
wrote:
>=20
> Dear Fred and Jordi,
>=20
> As an academic researcher, I think this draft makes sense and I =
support its adoption.
>=20
> I have one minor comment regarding the figure below:
>=20
>>> 3.1.2.  Service Provider offering 464XLAT, with DNS64
>> Pictorial image of what I'm picturing:
>>=20
>>                           +----+                +----+
>>                           |DNS |     +-----+    |DNS |
>>                           |IPv6|     |DNS64|    |IPv4|
>>                           +--+-+     +--+--+    +--+-+
>>   +------+ v6 +------+       |          |          |
>>   |      +----+      |    ,--+--.       |       ,--+--.
>>   |Dual  |    | IPv6 |   /       \    ,-+-.    /       \
>>   |Stack |  +-+Router+--(  IPv6   )--( PLAT)--(  IPv4   )
>>   |Device|v4|C|      |   \Network/`.  `---'    \Network/
>>   |      +--+L|      |    `--+--'   `.         /`-----'
>>   +------+  |A|      |       |        `+------+
>>             |T|      |    +--+---+     | Peer |
>>             +-+------+    | IPv6 |     |Device|
>>                           |Device|     +------+
>>                           +------+
>=20
> Connecting the DNS64 server to the PLAT device suggests me as if DNS64 =
were a kind of subfunction of PLAT. Of course it is not the case. They =
can be implemented by two independent devices: stateful NAT64 is usually =
implemented by a router and DNS64 is usually implemented by a DNS =
server.
>=20
> I have been thinking about an alternative drawing like this:
>=20
>                          +----+                +----+
>                          |DNS |     +-----+    |DNS |
>                          |IPv6|     |DNS64|    |IPv4|
>                          +--+-+     +-----+    +--+-+
>  +------+ v6 +------+       |      /       \      |
>  |      +----+      |    ,--+--.  /         \  ,--+--.
>  |Dual  |    | IPv6 |   /       \/   ,---.   \/       \
>  |Stack |  +-+Router+--(  IPv6   )--( PLAT)--(  IPv4   )
>  |Device|v4|C|      |   \Network/`.  `---'    \Network/
>  |      +--+L|      |    `--+--'   `.         /`-----'
>  +------+  |A|      |       |        `+------+
>            |T|      |    +--+---+     | Peer |
>            +-+------+    | IPv6 |     |Device|
>                          |Device|     +------+
>                          +------+
>=20
>=20
> What do you think of it?
>=20
> Best regards,
>=20
> Gabor
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: Fred Baker 
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Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
References: <663F489C-7F63-4B0C-A5E6-F7EE4634E62B@gmail.com> <60335039-287e-4fb3-870b-2c4fe9b5445d@otenet.gr> <2D196DD1-FF0F-4365-8F50-5AD98DCBA989@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF4F296@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <1F8254E0-D425-486A-B744-EDA836266D99@consulintel.es>
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No hats, and a comment to get picked up next week, not before 23:59 UTC =
today.

I'm thinking further about the statement that "DNS64 breaks DNSSEC". I =
think that is just incorrect.

Here's the scenario. I'm thinking from the perspective of the user of =
DNS64 in

                         +----+                +----+
                         |DNS |     +-----+    |DNS |
                         |IPv6|     |DNS64|    |IPv4|
                         +--+-+     +-----+    +--+-+
 +------+ v6 +------+       |      /       \      |
 |      +----+      |    ,--+--.  /         \  ,--+--.
 |Dual  |    | IPv6 |   /       \/   ,---.   \/       \
 |Stack |  +-+Router+--(  IPv6   )--( PLAT)--(  IPv4   )
 |Device|v4|C|      |   \Network/`.  `---'    \Network/
 |      +--+L|      |    `--+--'   `.         /`-----'
 +------+  |A|      |       |        `+------+
           |T|      |    +--+---+     | Peer |
           +-+------+    | IPv6 |     |Device|
                         |Device|     +------+
                         +------+

which might be the IPv6 side of the "Dual Stack Device" or might be the =
"IPv6 Device". There are two sets of possibilities:

=46rom an IPv6 perspective (either device), assuming the response =
contains correct data, a request for a AAAA record will yield one of =
four things:

1) NXDOMAIN
2) a signed AAAA record
3) an unsigned but valid native AAA record
4) an unsigned DNS64-generated IPv4-embedded IPv6 Address, the synthesis =
of an IPv6 prefix and an IPv4 address.

Barring a few exclusions, #4 will never happen if a native AAAA record =
is known by the DNS64 device =
(https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6147#section-5.1.1).

=46rom an IPv4 perspective, the "Dual Stack Device" will also request an =
A record, and might get:

1) NXDOMAIN
2) a signed A record
3) an unsigned but valid native A record

In either case, NXDOMAIN (option #1) kind of closes the options. I =
should expect the device(s) will prefer a signed record to an unsigned =
one, which might mean that the "Dual Stack Device" prefers a signed A =
record to an unsigned DNS64 AAAA record. If it gets two signed records, =
it's cook's choice, and the "Dual Stack Device" is likely to prefer the =
signed AAAA record to the signed A record "just because". If it gets no =
signed records, I don't know offhand how it would tell a native address =
from a DNS64 address without parsing the address in the AAAA record. So =
it might use a generated address to get to the PLAT or let the CLAT =
create an address to get to the PLAT. But in either case, if DNS64 is in =
use, it gets to the PLAT, so it probably doesn't matter.

                +--------+--------+----------+
  IPv6:    IPv4:|NXDOMAIN|Signed A|Unsigned A|
 +--------------+=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+
 |NXDOMAIN      |  fail  |use A   | use A    |
 +--------------+--------+--------+----------+
 |Signed AAAA   |use AAAA|choice  | use AAAA |
 +--------------+--------+--------+----------+
 |Unsigned AAAA |use AAAA|use A   | choice   |
 +--------------+--------+--------+----------+
 |DNS64 AAAA    |use AAAA|use A   | choice   |
 +--------------+--------+--------+----------+

But I don't see any case in which an unsigned record replaces a signed =
record, or a signed record cannot be verified, which is what would break =
DNSSEC.

Hence, I don't think DNS64 "breaks" DNSSEC. It enables connectivity in =
cases where NXDOMAIN would disable connectivity, and the user goes =
through a NAT, with all the evils that implies.

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From: Richard Patterson 
Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 21:06:04 +0100
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Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "v6ops@ietf.org list" , intarea-chairs@ietf.org,  dhcwg@ietf.org, int-area@ietf.org, jeanyves.cloarec@orange.com
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health-03.txt
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Med,  I've just pushed -04 out before the cutoff deadline this
evening. Hopefully I've correctly integrated your comments.

A new version of I-D, draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health-04.txt
has been successfully submitted by Richard Patterson and posted to the
IETF repository.



Name:           draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health
Revision:       04
Title:          IP over Ethernet (IPoE) Session Health Checking
Document date:  2018-07-02
Group:          Individual Submission
Pages:          16
URL:
https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health-04.txt
Status:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health/
Htmlized:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health-04
Htmlized:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health
Diff:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health-04

Abstract:
   PPP over Ethernet clients have the functionality to detect path
   unavailability by using PPP Keepalives.  IP over Ethernet does not
   have this functionality, and it is not specified in the IETF when an
   IP over Ethernet client should consider its WAN connectivity down,
   unless there is a physical layer link down event.

   This document describes a mechanism for IP over Ethernet clients to
   achieve connectivity validation, similar to that of PPP over
   Ethernet, by using BFD Echo, or ARP and Neighbor Discovery functions.
On Mon, 2 Jul 2018 at 19:21, Richard Patterson  wrote:
>
> Hi Med,
>
> Thanks once again for your review, comments, and support.
> I'll address your bullet points in-line below.  I'll try to get a -04
> out incorporating your feedback before the cut off.
>
>
> On Mon, 2 Jul 2018 at 09:29,  wrote:
> > The main comments:
> > * Use 3 as default retry interval value (consistent with BBF TR-124 and some existing implementations).
>
> Have reworded the parameter definition to:
> - Limit (Integer): The number of failed consecutive checks before an
> action is taken. Default value: 3.
>
> > * Generalize the procedure to cover any dynamic configuration means (DHCP, as an example among others).
>
> I agree for the most part, but I'm unsure about considering TR-69 as
> dynamically signalled.  I was treating TR-69 as a method for local
> configuration (which we've now changed to static in -03).
> I think the idea is the same though, so I'll work your suggested wording in.
>
> > * Add a guard to prevent loopback and multicast addresses as alternate target @
>
> Is saying that the field must be a unicast address sufficient, or do
> you want to specifically call out loopbacks and multicast?
>
> > * Double check some part of the text to reflect that both interval and retry-interval are now used.
> >
> > I do support this effort to be adopted in dhcwg or int-area.
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Med


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From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
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Hi Fred,



I think is much simpler than all that.



DNSSEC is *only* broken if the dual-stack host is doing DNSSEC validation o=
ver the synthetized AAAA.



That's why, according Jen work, it only happens around 1.7% of the times, b=
ecause not many OSs/apps/hosts do that (today). Of course, the goal of DNSS=
EC deployment is that it always done, so this % may increase.



Of course, it may happen as well in the ISP DNSSEC validator (or other vali=
dators being used, etc.), if is a DNS which is now aware of DNS64. For exam=
ple, default DNS64 in bind, doesn't cause that problem, unless you wrongly =
configure it.



The point is if I'm an ISP, even if 1.7% is very small fraction, do I want =
that to come back to my call-center?



Even if I'm an ISP deploying DNS64, users change DNSs ... so they may break=
 other aspects (NAT64 prefix discovery), or they will end up using 8.8.8.8 =
and of course this is not a DNS64.



I think I've explained that in the document but will make sure to review an=
y relevant text where it is not clear.



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: Fred Baker 

Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 21:55

Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 

CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 

Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments



    No hats, and a comment to get picked up next week, not before 23:59 UTC=
 today.

   =20

    I'm thinking further about the statement that "DNS64 breaks DNSSEC". I =
think that is just incorrect.

   =20

    Here's the scenario. I'm thinking from the perspective of the user of D=
NS64 in

   =20

                             +----+                +----+

                             |DNS |     +-----+    |DNS |

                             |IPv6|     |DNS64|    |IPv4|

                             +--+-+     +-----+    +--+-+

     +------+ v6 +------+       |      /       \      |

     |      +----+      |    ,--+--.  /         \  ,--+--.

     |Dual  |    | IPv6 |   /       \/   ,---.   \/       \

     |Stack |  +-+Router+--(  IPv6   )--( PLAT)--(  IPv4   )

     |Device|v4|C|      |   \Network/`.  `---'    \Network/

     |      +--+L|      |    `--+--'   `.         /`-----'

     +------+  |A|      |       |        `+------+

               |T|      |    +--+---+     | Peer |

               +-+------+    | IPv6 |     |Device|

                             |Device|     +------+

                             +------+

   =20

    which might be the IPv6 side of the "Dual Stack Device" or might be the=
 "IPv6 Device". There are two sets of possibilities:

   =20

    From an IPv6 perspective (either device), assuming the response contain=
s correct data, a request for a AAAA record will yield one of four things:

   =20

    1) NXDOMAIN

    2) a signed AAAA record

    3) an unsigned but valid native AAA record

    4) an unsigned DNS64-generated IPv4-embedded IPv6 Address, the synthesi=
s of an IPv6 prefix and an IPv4 address.

   =20

    Barring a few exclusions, #4 will never happen if a native AAAA record =
is known by the DNS64 device (https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6147#section-5=
.1.1).

   =20

    From an IPv4 perspective, the "Dual Stack Device" will also request an =
A record, and might get:

   =20

    1) NXDOMAIN

    2) a signed A record

    3) an unsigned but valid native A record

   =20

    In either case, NXDOMAIN (option #1) kind of closes the options. I shou=
ld expect the device(s) will prefer a signed record to an unsigned one, whi=
ch might mean that the "Dual Stack Device" prefers a signed A record to an =
unsigned DNS64 AAAA record. If it gets two signed records, it's cook's choi=
ce, and the "Dual Stack Device" is likely to prefer the signed AAAA record =
to the signed A record "just because". If it gets no signed records, I don'=
t know offhand how it would tell a native address from a DNS64 address with=
out parsing the address in the AAAA record. So it might use a generated add=
ress to get to the PLAT or let the CLAT create an address to get to the PLA=
T. But in either case, if DNS64 is in use, it gets to the PLAT, so it proba=
bly doesn't matter.

   =20

                    +--------+--------+----------+

      IPv6:    IPv4:|NXDOMAIN|Signed A|Unsigned A|

     +--------------+=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D+

     |NXDOMAIN      |  fail  |use A   | use A    |

     +--------------+--------+--------+----------+

     |Signed AAAA   |use AAAA|choice  | use AAAA |

     +--------------+--------+--------+----------+

     |Unsigned AAAA |use AAAA|use A   | choice   |

     +--------------+--------+--------+----------+

     |DNS64 AAAA    |use AAAA|use A   | choice   |

     +--------------+--------+--------+----------+

   =20

    But I don't see any case in which an unsigned record replaces a signed =
record, or a signed record cannot be verified, which is what would break DN=
SSEC.

   =20

    Hence, I don't think DNS64 "breaks" DNSSEC. It enables connectivity in =
cases where NXDOMAIN would disable connectivity, and the user goes through =
a NAT, with all the evils that implies.

   =20




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From: Fred Baker 
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To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
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> On Jul 2, 2018, at 1:17 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ =
 wrote:
>=20
> DNSSEC is *only* broken if the dual-stack host is doing DNSSEC =
validation over the synthetized AAAA.

So you're worried about DNSSEC validation working through NAT64 in the =
case that the host is using the DNS service in the IPv4 network through =
the NAT64 device.

That doesn't have anything to do with DNS64; an a 464XLAT network, if we =
believe RFC 6877, the issue you raise happens in the absence of DNS64.

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Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 14:55:09 -0700
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To: Fred Baker 
Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
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On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 1:41 PM Fred Baker  wrote:

>
>
> > On Jul 2, 2018, at 1:17 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <
> jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:
> >
> > DNSSEC is *only* broken if the dual-stack host is doing DNSSEC
> validation over the synthetized AAAA.
>
> So you're worried about DNSSEC validation working through NAT64 in the
> case that the host is using the DNS service in the IPv4 network through the
> NAT64 device.
>
> That doesn't have anything to do with DNS64; an a 464XLAT network, if we
> believe RFC 6877, the issue you raise happens in the absence of DNS64.


A good postion for the IETF to take is that one should only produce a
signed A if they can also produce a signed AAAA, which is not a tall order
these says

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-byrne-v6ops-dnssecaaaa-00


> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

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On Mon,=
 Jul 2, 2018 at 1:41 PM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:




> On Jul 2, 2018, at 1:17 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:

> 

> DNSSEC is *only* broken if the dual-stack host is doing DNSSEC validat=
ion over the synthetized AAAA.



So you're worried about DNSSEC validation working through NAT64 in the =
case that the host is using the DNS service in the IPv4 network through the=
 NAT64 device.



That doesn't have anything to do with DNS64; an a 464XLAT network, if w=
e believe RFC 6877, the issue you raise happens in the absence of DNS64.

A good postion for =
the IETF to take is that one should only produce a signed A if they can als=
o produce a signed AAAA, which is not a tall order these says=C2=A0




_______________________________________________

v6ops mailing list

v6ops@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops




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From: Fred Baker 
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Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 17:03:02 -0700
Cc: Ron Bonica , Warren Kumari 
To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
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Subject: [v6ops] New Agenda
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I have posted an updated agenda at =
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materials/agenda-102-v6ops-01.

My plan is basically to start from the top of the agenda on Thursday =
afternoon and proceed as far as time permits. draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost =
may, as a result, slide forward to Thursday afternoon, and there is an =
outside chance that we will complete the agenda on that day.

For the record, we have three other drafts that I have seen little or no =
commentary on, but we could use the available time to discuss if there =
is interest:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jaeggli-v6ops-indefensible-nd
  "Indefensible Neighbor Discovery", Joel Jaeggli, 2018-07-02,

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links
  "IPv6 Point-to-Point Links", Jordi Palet, 2018-05-29,

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis
  "IPv6 Address Assignment to End-Sites", Rosalea Roberts, Jordi Palet,
  2018-06-28

I would need to see supportive email commentary on them.

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To: Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org WG"
 
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On 7/2/18 5:03 PM, Fred Baker wrote:
> I have posted an updated agenda at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting=
/102/materials/agenda-102-v6ops-01.
>
> My plan is basically to start from the top of the agenda on Thursday af=
ternoon and proceed as far as time permits. draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost ma=
y, as a result, slide forward to Thursday afternoon, and there is an outs=
ide chance that we will complete the agenda on that day.
>
> For the record, we have three other drafts that I have seen little or n=
o commentary on, but we could use the available time to discuss if there =
is interest:
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jaeggli-v6ops-indefensible-nd
>   "Indefensible Neighbor Discovery", Joel Jaeggli, 2018-07-02,
I'm not super enthused about presenting on this one except maybe to
comment on it's purpose. which may sound oxymoronic, but here goes.

In the v6 addressing architecture sparse /64 subnets expose the
control-plane to potentially costly discovery processes. in rfc6583 we
discussed implementation improvements that might limit the impact of a
dos attempt, these were in no way a panacea. In fact actual
methodologies which network=A0 / service operators use to mitigate the th=
e
exposure in part (externally for example) or entirely (by relying on a
methodology other than neighbor discovery, e.g. routing or
registration). some of these methods require longer prefixes then
traditional subnet lengths to be routed and various proposals to allow
for that more generally in the architecture do exist.

My principle motivation in bring this draft to the table was actually to
point out that=A0 some motivations related to discussion in 6man are not
tied to misguided attempts at provider address consumption optimization.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-carpenter-6man-lap/

the discussion on 6man (SAILing LAPs) is up to about 88 messages and
climbing.

or

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-bourbaki-6man-classless-ipv6-03
(disclaimer, I am a co-author)

The fact that there is now an 01 draft is mainly due to feedback from
Mark Smith and Brian Carpenter.

Why v6ops as the target? The document is quite closely related in my
mind to 6583, possibly because I was an author of that one, but also
because the mitigations employing routing, subnet size and link-local
networking are in fact in use today in an operational context (as are
stateful firewalls).

I asked for time at IEPG to discuss the problem the document is
attempting survey more widely. As that (non-ietf) community is largely
operator focused I except what will be discussed there will probably no
be the document itself.

Thanks
joel
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-p2p-links
>   "IPv6 Point-to-Point Links", Jordi Palet, 2018-05-29,
>
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis
>   "IPv6 Address Assignment to End-Sites", Rosalea Roberts, Jordi Palet,=

>   2018-06-28
>
> I would need to see supportive email commentary on them.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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On 7/2/18 5:03 PM, Fred Baker wrote:
    

    

      
I have posted an updated agenda at https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/materia=
ls/agenda-102-v6ops-01.

My plan is basically to start from the top of the agenda on Thursday afte=
rnoon and proceed as far as time permits. draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost may,=
 as a result, slide forward to Thursday afternoon, and there is an outsid=
e chance that we will complete the agenda on that day.

For the record, we have three other drafts that I have seen little or no =
commentary on, but we could use the available time to discuss if there is=
 interest:

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-jaeg=
gli-v6ops-indefensible-nd
  "Indefensible Neighbor Discovery", Joel Jaeggli, 2018-07-02,

    

    I'm not super enthused about presenting on this one except maybe to
    comment on it's purpose. which may sound oxymoronic, but here goes.
    

    In the v6 addressing architecture sparse /64 subnets expose the
    control-plane to potentially costly discovery processes. in rfc6583
    we discussed implementation improvements that might limit the impact
    of a dos attempt, these were in no way a panacea. In fact actual
    methodologies which network=A0 / service operators use to mitigate th=
e
    the exposure in part (externally for example) or entirely (by
    relying on a methodology other than neighbor discovery, e.g. routing
    or registration). some of these methods require longer prefixes then
    traditional subnet lengths to be routed and various proposals to
    allow for that more generally in the architecture do exist.

    

    My principle motivation in bring this draft to the table was
    actually to point out that=A0 some motivations related to discussion
    in 6man are not tied to misguided attempts at provider address
    consumption optimization.

    

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-=
carpenter-6man-lap/

    

    the discussion on 6man (SAILing LAPs) is up to about 88 messages and
    climbing.

    

    or

    

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draf=
t-bourbaki-6man-classless-ipv6-03
    (disclaimer, I am a co-author)

    

    The fact that there is now an 01 draft is mainly due to feedback
    from Mark Smith and Brian Carpenter.

    

    Why v6ops as the target? The document is quite closely related in my
    mind to 6583, possibly because I was an author of that one, but also
    because the mitigations employing routing, subnet size and
    link-local networking are in fact in use today in an operational
    context (as are stateful firewalls).

    

    I asked for time at IEPG to discuss the problem the document is
    attempting survey more widely. As that (non-ietf) community is
    largely operator focused I except what will be discussed there will
    probably no be the document itself.

    

    Thanks

    joel

    

      
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-=
p2p-links
  "IPv6 Point-to-Point Links", Jordi Palet, 2018-05-29,

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6op=
s-rfc6177-bis
  "IPv6 Address Assignment to End-Sites", Rosalea Roberts, Jordi Palet,
  2018-06-28

I would need to see supportive email commentary on them.


      

      

      

      
_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6op=
s@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


    

    

  


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To: Richard Patterson 
CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" , "intarea-chairs@ietf.org" , "dhcwg@ietf.org" , "int-area@ietf.org" , CLOAREC Jean-Yves IMT/OLN 
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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00.txt
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Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 09:50:36 +0200
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: Fred Baker 
CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
References: <663F489C-7F63-4B0C-A5E6-F7EE4634E62B@gmail.com> <60335039-287e-4fb3-870b-2c4fe9b5445d@otenet.gr> <2D196DD1-FF0F-4365-8F50-5AD98DCBA989@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF4F296@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <1F8254E0-D425-486A-B744-EDA836266D99@consulintel.es> <0DEE4384-5CEE-4F9D-8152-4C10B5AEA365@gmail.com> <6195FD70-2934-46D0-8D39-D7FF15844CF7@consulintel.es> <5E7186D6-20BF-4153-A1AE-D25A256F92DA@gmail.com>
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Hi Fred,



In RFC6877, there is no mention of DNSSEC, in fact, this document explicitl=
y mentions the case when DNS64 is not used, so I'm not sure I understand yo=
u comment on this.



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: Fred Baker 

Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 22:40

Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 

CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 

Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments



   =20

   =20

    > On Jul 2, 2018, at 1:17 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ  wrote:

    >=20

    > DNSSEC is *only* broken if the dual-stack host is doing DNSSEC valida=
tion over the synthetized AAAA.

   =20

    So you're worried about DNSSEC validation working through NAT64 in the =
case that the host is using the DNS service in the IPv4 network through the=
 NAT64 device.

   =20

    That doesn't have anything to do with DNS64; an a 464XLAT network, if w=
e believe RFC 6877, the issue you raise happens in the absence of DNS64.

   =20




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Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 09:53:32 +0200
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: Ca By , Fred Baker 
CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
References: <663F489C-7F63-4B0C-A5E6-F7EE4634E62B@gmail.com> <60335039-287e-4fb3-870b-2c4fe9b5445d@otenet.gr> <2D196DD1-FF0F-4365-8F50-5AD98DCBA989@gmail.com> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF4F296@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <1F8254E0-D425-486A-B744-EDA836266D99@consulintel.es> <0DEE4384-5CEE-4F9D-8152-4C10B5AEA365@gmail.com> <6195FD70-2934-46D0-8D39-D7FF15844CF7@consulintel.es> <5E7186D6-20BF-4153-A1AE-D25A256F92DA@gmail.com> 
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Hi Cameron,

=20

Fully agree, the issue is always that we don=E2=80=99t have the power to te=
ll operators (content and app providers mainly in this case), =E2=80=9Cif y=
ou do DNSSEC, you must do IPv6=E2=80=9D. May be thru ICANN/IANA =E2=80=A6

=20

I tried that already:

=20

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-sunset4-ipv6-ready-dns-00

=20


Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20

=20

De: Ca By 
Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 23:55
Para: Fred Baker 
CC: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , "v6ops@ietf.org list=
" 
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments

=20

=20

=20

On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 1:41 PM Fred Baker  wrote:



> On Jul 2, 2018, at 1:17 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ  wrote:
>=20
> DNSSEC is *only* broken if the dual-stack host is doing DNSSEC validation=
 over the synthetized AAAA.

So you're worried about DNSSEC validation working through NAT64 in the case=
 that the host is using the DNS service in the IPv4 network through the NAT=
64 device.

That doesn't have anything to do with DNS64; an a 464XLAT network, if we be=
lieve RFC 6877, the issue you raise happens in the absence of DNS64.

=20

A good postion for the IETF to take is that one should only produce a signe=
d A if they can also produce a signed AAAA, which is not a tall order these=
 says=20

=20

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-byrne-v6ops-dnssecaaaa-00

=20


_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops



**********************************************
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This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
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ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, =
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Hi Cameron,
 
Fully agree, the issue is always that we don=E2=80=99t have the power t=
o tell operators (content and app providers mainly in this case), =E2=80=9C=
if you do DNSSEC, you must do IPv6=E2=80=9D. May be thru ICANN/IANA =E2=80=
=A6
 
I tried that alrea=
dy:
 
https://tools.ietf=
.org/html/draft-palet-sunset4-ipv6-ready-dns-00
 

Regards,
Jordi
 =
;
 
 
=
De: Ca By <cb.list6@gmail.com>
Fecha:=
 lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 23:55
Para: Fred Baker <fredba=
ker.ietf@gmail.com>
CC: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@c=
onsulintel.es>, "v6ops@ietf.org list" <v6ops@ietf.org>Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments=

 
 
 
On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 1:41 PM Fred Baker <=
;fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com&g=
t; wrote:


> On Ju=
l 2, 2018, at 1:17 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wro=
te:
> 
> DNSSEC is *only* broken if the dual-stack host is doin=
g DNSSEC validation over the synthetized AAAA.

So you're worried abo=
ut DNSSEC validation working through NAT64 in the case that the host is usi=
ng the DNS service in the IPv4 network through the NAT64 device.

Tha=
t doesn't have anything to do with DNS64; an a 464XLAT network, if we belie=
ve RFC 6877, the issue you raise happens in the absence of DNS64.
 
A good postion for the IETF to take is that one should only produce a =
signed A if they can also produce a signed AAAA, which is not a tall order =
these says 
<=
br>_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing listv6ops@ietf.org
=
h=
ttps://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
<=
/div>

**********************************************

IPv4 is over

Are you ready for the new Internet ?

http://www.consulintel.es

The IPv6 Company



This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
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ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.





--B_3613456412_944224822--


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From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: , "v6ops@ietf.org" 
Message-ID: <1D78F5ED-2E9A-4F59-99AD-4A7B6A6CBBAC@consulintel.es>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00.txt
References: <153055467643.16082.12390388793662445065@ietfa.amsl.com> <133D0B5D-EABB-4652-803B-0EC99A46B02D@consulintel.es> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF50951@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00.txt
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Hi Med,



Thanks a lot for the detailed review, and for sure I will go thru all the d=
etails ASAP.



However, I think there is an issue in the sense that you read the document =
with a scope "what transition you should deploy", while the scope is "if yo=
u already decided to use NAT64/464XLAT, this is what you need to consider".



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: v6ops  en nombre de 

Fecha: martes, 3 de julio de 2018, 9:44

Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ ,=
 "v6ops@ietf.org" 

Asunto: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00.txt



    Hi Jordi,=20

   =20

    FWIW, you may find some comments at:

   =20

    * pdf: https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/dra=
ft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00-rev%20Med.pdf=20

    * doc: https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/dra=
ft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00-rev%20Med.pdf=20

   =20

    The main comments are:=20

    * The document should be explicit about its scope: DNS64/DNSEEC. The ti=
tle/file name/abstract are all misleading.

    * The document can be simplified by removing sections which are not abo=
ut valid deployment scenarios.

    * Some of the statements should be revisited and aligned with existing =
RFCs.   =20

    * I have some "troubles" with the recommendations section.=20

    * A recommendation that you missed there is to consider alternate appro=
aches which do not "suffer" from the issues you want to solve (DS-Lite, A+P=
).=20

   =20

    Hope this helps.=20

   =20

    Cheers,=20

    Med

   =20

    > -----Message d'origine-----

    > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PALET =
MARTINEZ

    > Envoy=C3=A9 : lundi 2 juillet 2018 20:27

    > =C3=80 : v6ops@ietf.org

    > Objet : Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00.=
txt

    >=20

    > Hi Fred, all,

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > I just submitted it, tried to address your comments and added a secti=
on for

    > DNS privacy (addressing the comments for DoH, but also applied to oth=
er DNS

    > privacy protocols, which I think have the same issues). Basically, th=
ey are

    > the same issues as if the user changes the DNS (what I call "Manual

    > Configuration of Foreign DNS").

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment/

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > I tried to address also other few comments received the last days, bu=
t didn't

    > have sufficient time to double-check that all them are done.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > I think possible new sections may be related to expanding the (actual=
 annex)

    > benchmarking and may be explaining possible approaches for HA/redunda=
ncy of

    > the NAT64/DNS64. I will work on that ASAP.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > Any other ideas from the WG about what is missing or should be revise=
d?

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > Regards,

    >=20

    > Jordi

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

    >=20

    > De: v6ops  en nombre de 

    >=20

    > Fecha: lunes, 2 de julio de 2018, 20:05

    >=20

    > Para: 

    >=20

    > CC: 

    >=20

    > Asunto: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00.txt

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >     A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Draft=
s

    > directories.

    >=20

    >     This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >             Title           : NAT64/464XLAT Deployment Guidelines in =
Operator

    > and Enterprise Networks

    >=20

    >             Author          : Jordi Palet Martinez

    >=20

    >     	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00.txt

    >=20

    >     	Pages           : 34

    >=20

    >     	Date            : 2018-07-02

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >     Abstract:

    >=20

    >        This document describes how NAT64 and 464XLAT can be deployed =
in an

    >=20

    >        IPv6 network, whether cellular ISP, broadband ISP, or enterpri=
se and

    >=20

    >        the issues to be considered when having an IPv6-only access li=
nk,

    >=20

    >        regarding: a) DNS64, b) applications or devices that use liter=
al IPv4

    >=20

    >        addresses or non-IPv6 compliant APIs, and c) IPv4-only hosts o=
r

    >=20

    >        applications.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >     The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:

    >=20

    >     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deploymen=
t/

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >     There are also htmlized versions available at:

    >=20

    >     https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-deployment-00

    >=20

    >     https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-nat64-depl=
oyment-

    > 00

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >     Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of

    > submission

    >=20

    >     until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.o=
rg.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >     Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:

    >=20

    >     ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >     _______________________________________________

    >=20

    >     v6ops mailing list

    >=20

    >     v6ops@ietf.org

    >=20

    >     https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > **********************************************

    > IPv4 is over

    > Are you ready for the new Internet ?

    > http://www.consulintel.es

    > The IPv6 Company

    >=20

    > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged =
or

    > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use=
 of the

    > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized discl=
osure,

    > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve=
n if

    > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will =
be

    > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient =
be aware

    > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of =
this

    > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly

    > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply =
to the

    > original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > _______________________________________________

    > v6ops mailing list

    > v6ops@ietf.org

    > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

    _______________________________________________

    v6ops mailing list

    v6ops@ietf.org

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

   =20




**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.consulintel.es
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, =
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p=
artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons=
idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t=
hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in=
formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi=
ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.




From nobody Tue Jul  3 09:05:05 2018
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Subject: [v6ops] v6ops - Requested sessions have been scheduled for IETF 102
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Dear Fred Baker,

The session(s) that you have requested have been scheduled.
Below is the scheduled session information followed by
the original request. 


    v6ops Session 1 (2:00 requested)
    Thursday, 19 July 2018, Afternoon Session I 1330-1530
    Room Name: Laurier size: 250
    ---------------------------------------------
    v6ops Session 2 (2:00 requested)
    Friday, 20 July 2018, Morning Session I 0930-1130
    Room Name: Place du Canada size: 300
    ---------------------------------------------


iCalendar: https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/102/sessions/v6ops.ics

Request Information:


---------------------------------------------------------
Working Group Name: IPv6 Operations
Area Name: Operations and Management Area
Session Requester: Fred Baker

Number of Sessions: 2
Length of Session(s):  2 Hours, 2 Hours
Number of Attendees: 150
Conflicts to Avoid: 
 First Priority: ipwave rtgwg mboned ipsecme dnsop grow intarea
 Second Priority: suit tsvwg opsec idr
 Third Priority: teas sunset4 softwire spring sidrops sfc nvo3 mpls ippm ccamp 6man 6lo


People who must be present:
  Fred Baker
  Ron Bonica
  Warren Kumari
  Fred Baker
  Ron Bonica
  Warren Kumari

Resources Requested:

Special Requests:
  
---------------------------------------------------------


From nobody Tue Jul  3 10:11:03 2018
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From: Fred Baker 
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To: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
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Subject: [v6ops] Fwd:  draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
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A general note. I have wondered aloud about interest in several new =
drafts, and managed to miss Cameron's:

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-byrne-v6ops-dnssecaaaa
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-byrne-v6ops-dnssecaaaa
  "DNSSEC Resource Record Should Include AAAA", Cameron Byrne, =
2018-07-01,

If you want it on the agenda in two weeks, now would be the time to say =
so.

> Begin forwarded message:
>=20
> From: Ca By 
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
> Date: July 2, 2018 at 2:55:09 PM PDT
> To: Fred Baker 
> Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , "v6ops@ietf.org =
list" 
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 1:41 PM Fred Baker  =
wrote:
>=20
>=20
> > On Jul 2, 2018, at 1:17 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ =
 wrote:
> >
> > DNSSEC is *only* broken if the dual-stack host is doing DNSSEC =
validation over the synthetized AAAA.
>=20
> So you're worried about DNSSEC validation working through NAT64 in the =
case that the host is using the DNS service in the IPv4 network through =
the NAT64 device.
>=20
> That doesn't have anything to do with DNS64; an a 464XLAT network, if =
we believe RFC 6877, the issue you raise happens in the absence of =
DNS64.
>=20
> A good postion for the IETF to take is that one should only produce a =
signed A if they can also produce a signed AAAA, which is not a tall =
order these says
>=20
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-byrne-v6ops-dnssecaaaa-00
>=20
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: Ca By 
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To: Fred Baker 
Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Fwd: draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
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On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 10:11 AM Fred Baker  wrote:

> A general note. I have wondered aloud about interest in several new
> drafts, and managed to miss Cameron's:
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-byrne-v6ops-dnssecaaaa
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-byrne-v6ops-dnssecaaaa
>   "DNSSEC Resource Record Should Include AAAA", Cameron Byrne, 2018-07-01,
>
> If you want it on the agenda in two weeks, now would be the time to say so.
>

No, i will not be present.

But  i am interested in folks sending feedback on if this is useful.  The
goal of this I-D is to harmonize dns64 and dnssec deployment with an ideal
solution, as opposed to falling into a worst case where folks pick one or
the other.



> > Begin forwarded message:
> >
> > From: Ca By 
> > Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
> > Date: July 2, 2018 at 2:55:09 PM PDT
> > To: Fred Baker 
> > Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , "v6ops@ietf.org
> list" 
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 1:41 PM Fred Baker 
> wrote:
> >
> >
> > > On Jul 2, 2018, at 1:17 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <
> jordi.palet@consulintel.es> wrote:
> > >
> > > DNSSEC is *only* broken if the dual-stack host is doing DNSSEC
> validation over the synthetized AAAA.
> >
> > So you're worried about DNSSEC validation working through NAT64 in the
> case that the host is using the DNS service in the IPv4 network through the
> NAT64 device.
> >
> > That doesn't have anything to do with DNS64; an a 464XLAT network, if we
> believe RFC 6877, the issue you raise happens in the absence of DNS64.
> >
> > A good postion for the IETF to take is that one should only produce a
> signed A if they can also produce a signed AAAA, which is not a tall order
> these says
> >
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-byrne-v6ops-dnssecaaaa-00
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

--000000000000899c3705701d7123
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable




On Tue,=
 Jul 3, 2018 at 10:11 AM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrote:
A general note. I have wondered aloud about interest in sever=
al new drafts, and managed to miss Cameron's:



https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-=
byrne-v6ops-dnssecaaaa

https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-byrne-v6op=
s-dnssecaaaa

=C2=A0 "DNSSEC Resource Record Should Include AAAA", Cameron Byrn=
e, 2018-07-01,



If you want it on the agenda in two weeks, now would be the time to say so.=




No, i will not b=
e present.=C2=A0

But =C2=
=A0i am interested in folks sending feedback on if this is useful.=C2=A0 Th=
e goal of this I-D is to harmonize dns64 and dnssec deployment with an idea=
l solution, as opposed to falling into a worst case where folks pick one or=
 the other.




> Begin forwarded message:

> 

> From: Ca By <cb.list6@gmail.com>

> Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
> Date: July 2, 2018 at 2:55:09 PM PDT

> To: Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com>

> Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel.es>, "v6ops@ietf.org list" <=
;v6ops@ietf.org>=


> 

> 

> 

> On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 1:41 PM Fred Baker <fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com> wrot=
e:

> 

> 

> > On Jul 2, 2018, at 1:17 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet@consulintel=
.es> wrote:

> >

> > DNSSEC is *only* broken if the dual-stack host is doing DNSSEC va=
lidation over the synthetized AAAA.

> 

> So you're worried about DNSSEC validation working through NAT64 in=
 the case that the host is using the DNS service in the IPv4 network throug=
h the NAT64 device.

> 

> That doesn't have anything to do with DNS64; an a 464XLAT network,=
 if we believe RFC 6877, the issue you raise happens in the absence of DNS6=
4.

> 

> A good postion for the IETF to take is that one should only produce a =
signed A if they can also produce a signed AAAA, which is not a tall order =
these says

> 

> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-by=
rne-v6ops-dnssecaaaa-00

> 

> 

> _______________________________________________

> v6ops mailing list

> v6ops@ietf.org=


> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops



_______________________________________________

v6ops mailing list

v6ops@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops




--000000000000899c3705701d7123--


From nobody Tue Jul  3 19:46:03 2018
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From: Mark Andrews 
In-Reply-To: 
Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:45:53 +1000
Cc: Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
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References:   
To: Ca By 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
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While it will mitigate things it is a case of the tail wagging the dog =
and
really the correct solution is to make DNS64 historic.  DNS64 has always
been a case of tail-wagging-dog.

Accounting could have been fixed by =E2=80=9Cif next hop is IPv4 do =
accounting on
the that layer=E2=80=9D.  That should have been a quick fix for the =
telcos.

It was claimed "This will be a short term hack=E2=80=9D.  Yeh, really?

It was claimed =E2=80=9CHosts won=E2=80=99t need to be upgraded=E2=80=9D =
yet all those hosts (cell
phones) supported personal hotspots with IPv4 clients.  Almost all cell =
phones
have some mechanism to support IPv4 clients today.

It was claimed =E2=80=9CThan DNS64 was the only way that would let one =
know when it
was safe to turn off IPv4 as a service as nothing else would move the =
traffic
to IPv6=E2=80=9D.  Yet we see traffic prefering IPv6 instead of IPv4 =
when DNS64 is not
in use.

It was claimed that DNS64/NAT64 was better than tunnels yet it has =
basically
all the same problems.  You have a smaller PMTU for translated packets.  =
Bring
with it PMTUD problems, mss re-writing in the NAT64 mitigates some of =
the for
TCP but the problem still exists.

It was argued at the time DNSSEC problems were not properly addressed =
and that
has been demonstrated to be true.

The IETF process itself doesn=E2=80=99t lead to got solutions because if =
you have argued
in the working group against something you get ignored at IETF last call =
with
=E2=80=9Cyou argued that in the W-G and lost=E2=80=9D.

There is NO REASON to keep DNS64.  The current crop of phones will work =
without
it.  464XLAT doesn=E2=80=99t need DNS64, it just need ipv4only.arpa =
configured on the
recursive servers.  For wireline / fixed wireless / personal hotspot =
there are
IPv4 only clients that have to be handled so DNS64/NAT64 was never =
enough.

Put DNS64 out of its misery.

> On 4 Jul 2018, at 5:37 am, Ca By  wrote:
>=20
>=20
>=20
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 10:11 AM Fred Baker  =
wrote:
> A general note. I have wondered aloud about interest in several new =
drafts, and managed to miss Cameron's:
>=20
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-byrne-v6ops-dnssecaaaa
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-byrne-v6ops-dnssecaaaa
>   "DNSSEC Resource Record Should Include AAAA", Cameron Byrne, =
2018-07-01,
>=20
> If you want it on the agenda in two weeks, now would be the time to =
say so.
>=20
> No, i will not be present.=20
>=20
> But  i am interested in folks sending feedback on if this is useful.  =
The goal of this I-D is to harmonize dns64 and dnssec deployment with an =
ideal solution, as opposed to falling into a worst case where folks pick =
one or the other.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > Begin forwarded message:
> >=20
> > From: Ca By 
> > Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
> > Date: July 2, 2018 at 2:55:09 PM PDT
> > To: Fred Baker 
> > Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , =
"v6ops@ietf.org list" 
> >=20
> >=20
> >=20
> > On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 1:41 PM Fred Baker  =
wrote:
> >=20
> >=20
> > > On Jul 2, 2018, at 1:17 PM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ =
 wrote:
> > >
> > > DNSSEC is *only* broken if the dual-stack host is doing DNSSEC =
validation over the synthetized AAAA.
> >=20
> > So you're worried about DNSSEC validation working through NAT64 in =
the case that the host is using the DNS service in the IPv4 network =
through the NAT64 device.
> >=20
> > That doesn't have anything to do with DNS64; an a 464XLAT network, =
if we believe RFC 6877, the issue you raise happens in the absence of =
DNS64.
> >=20
> > A good postion for the IETF to take is that one should only produce =
a signed A if they can also produce a signed AAAA, which is not a tall =
order these says
> >=20
> > https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-byrne-v6ops-dnssecaaaa-00
> >=20
> >=20
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

--=20
Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742              INTERNET: marka@isc.org


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From nobody Wed Jul  4 01:18:05 2018
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From: Gert Doering 
To: Ca By 
Cc: Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
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Hi,

On Mon, Jul 02, 2018 at 02:55:09PM -0700, Ca By wrote:
> A good postion for the IETF to take is that one should only produce a
> signed A if they can also produce a signed AAAA, which is not a tall order
> these says
> 
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-byrne-v6ops-dnssecaaaa-00

Can we adopt this as a WG document?  Support!

Gert Doering
        -- NetMaster
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG                      Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
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From nobody Wed Jul  4 08:32:41 2018
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To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , v6ops@ietf.org
References: <152991240953.6305.13394976711538807769@ietfa.amsl.com> <73CDA76D-24CD-4F3E-8A33-D6674CF5C284@consulintel.es>
From: Yannis Nikolopoulos 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04.txt
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Hi,

just a nit to pick:


    1
    .
    Introduction



    ...

    These routers are likely to rely upon "Basic Requirements for IPv6
    Customer Edge Routers" ([RFC7084 ])


and then:


    3
    .
    Requirements



    The IPv6 Transition CE Router MUST comply with [RFC7084 ] (Basic
    Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers)


Also, as an operator who deals with CPE vendors, I need to really 
complain about having 2 RFCs instead of 7084bis.


cheers,

Yannis


On 06/25/2018 10:51 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> We have uploaded a new version of this draft.
>
>
>
> No major changes, just the text for the transition requirements (but not an actual change from the previous version).
>
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/?include_text=1
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
>   
>
>   
>
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
>
> De: v6ops  en nombre de 
>
> Fecha: lunes, 25 de junio de 2018, 9:42
>
> Para: 
>
> CC: 
>
> Asunto: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04.txt
>
>
>
>      
>
>      A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
>
>      This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF.
>
>      
>
>              Title           : Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers to Support IPv4 Connectivity as-a-Service
>
>              Authors         : Jordi Palet Martinez
>
>                                Hans M.-H. Liu
>
>                                Masanobu Kawashima
>
>      	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04.txt
>
>      	Pages           : 21
>
>      	Date            : 2018-06-25
>
>      
>
>      Abstract:
>
>         This document specifies the IPv4 service continuity requirements for
>
>         an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router, either provided by the service
>
>         provider or thru the retail market.
>
>      
>
>         Specifically, this document extends the "Basic Requirements for IPv6
>
>         Customer Edge Routers" in order to allow the provisioning of IPv6
>
>         transition services for the support of "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS)
>
>         by means of new transition mechanisms.  The document only covers
>
>         transition technologies for delivering IPv4 in IPv6-only access
>
>         networks, commonly called "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS), as required
>
>         in a world where IPv4 addresses are no longer available, so hosts in
>
>         the customer LANs with IPv4-only or IPv6-only applications or
>
>         devices, requiring to communicate with IPv4-only services at the
>
>         Internet, are still able to do so.
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
>
>      https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/
>
>      
>
>      There are also htmlized versions available at:
>
>      https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04
>
>      https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04
>
>      
>
>      A diff from the previous version is available at:
>
>      https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04
>
>      
>
>      
>
>      Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
>
>      until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
>
>      
>
>      Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
>
>      ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
>
>      
>
>      _______________________________________________
>
>      v6ops mailing list
>
>      v6ops@ietf.org
>
>      https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
>      
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.consulintel.es
> The IPv6 Company
>
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--------------109348E8C0ACCFA02D000C84
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Hi,

    
just a nit to pick:

    


    

    
1.  Introduction


   ...

   These routers are likely to rely upon "Basic Requirements for IPv6
   Customer Edge Routers" ([RFC7084])

    

    and then:
    


    

    
3.  Requirements


   The IPv6 Transition CE Router MUST comply with [RFC7084] (Basic
   Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers)




    
Also, as an operator who deals with CPE vendors, I need to really
      complain about having 2 RFCs instead of 7084bis. 

    


      cheers,

    
Yannis

    

    

    
On 06/25/2018 10:51 AM, JORDI PALET
      MARTINEZ wrote:

    

    

      
Hi all,



We have uploaded a new version of this draft.



No major changes, just the text for the transition requirements (but not an actual change from the previous version).



https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/?include_text=1



Regards,

Jordi

 

 



-----Mensaje original-----

De: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de <internet-drafts@ietf.org>

Fecha: lunes, 25 de junio de 2018, 9:42

Para: <i-d-announce@ietf.org>

CC: <v6ops@ietf.org>

Asunto: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04.txt



    

    A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.

    This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF.

    

            Title           : Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers to Support IPv4 Connectivity as-a-Service

            Authors         : Jordi Palet Martinez

                              Hans M.-H. Liu

                              Masanobu Kawashima

    	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04.txt

    	Pages           : 21

    	Date            : 2018-06-25

    

    Abstract:

       This document specifies the IPv4 service continuity requirements for

       an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router, either provided by the service

       provider or thru the retail market.

    

       Specifically, this document extends the "Basic Requirements for IPv6

       Customer Edge Routers" in order to allow the provisioning of IPv6

       transition services for the support of "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS)

       by means of new transition mechanisms.  The document only covers

       transition technologies for delivering IPv4 in IPv6-only access

       networks, commonly called "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS), as required

       in a world where IPv4 addresses are no longer available, so hosts in

       the customer LANs with IPv4-only or IPv6-only applications or

       devices, requiring to communicate with IPv4-only services at the

       Internet, are still able to do so.

    

    

    The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/

    

    There are also htmlized versions available at:

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04

    

    A diff from the previous version is available at:

    https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04

    

    

    Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission

    until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

    

    Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:

    ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/

    

    _______________________________________________

    v6ops mailing list

    v6ops@ietf.org

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

    




**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.consulintel.es
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.



_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


    

    

  


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Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2018 13:39:29 +0200
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: Yannis Nikolopoulos , 
Message-ID: <8C608F8A-3DD0-4111-B706-D6F2566AA830@consulintel.es>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04.txt
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04.txt
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Hi Yannis,

=20

Thanks a lot for your input!

=20

I think we just need to change in the intro that text to:

=E2=80=9CThese routers rely upon "Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge=
 Routers" (RFC7084).=E2=80=9D

=20

We had an endless discussion about having a bit for RFC7084, and I think we=
 should not go back into that. My view now is, if you=E2=80=99re an ISP and=
 will need IPv4aaS support, you just ask for the new RFC, no need to refere=
nce RFC7084, as it is already a MUST on it.

=20

If you only need =E2=80=9CIPv6=E2=80=9D and no IPv4aaS (which I doubt it wi=
ll be the case for at least a few years), then you keep asking only for RFC=
7084.


Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20

=20

De: v6ops  en nombre de Yannis Nikolopoulos 
Fecha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 4 de julio de 2018, 17:33
Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ ,=
 
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04.txt

=20

Hi,

just a nit to pick:

=20
1.=C2=A0 Introduction
=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0 ...
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0 These routers are likely to rely upon "Basic Requirements for =
IPv6
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Customer Edge Routers" ([RFC7084])

and then:=20

=20
3.=C2=A0 Requirements
=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0 The IPv6 Transition CE Router MUST comply with [RFC7084] (Basi=
c
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers)
=20
=20
Also, as an operator who deals with CPE vendors, I need to really complain =
about having 2 RFCs instead of 7084bis.=20


cheers,

Yannis

=20

On 06/25/2018 10:51 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
Hi all,
=20
=20
=20
We have uploaded a new version of this draft.
=20
=20
=20
No major changes, just the text for the transition requirements (but not an=
 actual change from the previous version).
=20
=20
=20
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/?inclu=
de_text=3D1
=20
=20
=20
Regards,
=20
Jordi
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----
=20
De: v6ops  en nombre de 
=20
Fecha: lunes, 25 de junio de 2018, 9:42
=20
Para: 
=20
CC: 
=20
Asunto: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04.txt
=20
=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Inter=
net-Drafts directories.
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of t=
he IETF.
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Title=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : Requirements fo=
r IPv6 Customer Edge Routers to Support IPv4 Connectivity as-a-Service
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Authors=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : Jordi Palet Martinez
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hans M.-H. Liu
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Masanobu Kawashima
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04.=
txt
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : 21
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Date=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : 2018-06-25
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Abstract:
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This document specifies the IPv4 servi=
ce continuity requirements for
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router, eit=
her provided by the service
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 provider or thru the retail market.
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Specifically, this document extends th=
e "Basic Requirements for IPv6
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Customer Edge Routers" in order to all=
ow the provisioning of IPv6
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 transition services for the support of=
 "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS)
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by means of new transition mechanisms.=
=C2=A0 The document only covers
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 transition technologies for delivering=
 IPv4 in IPv6-only access
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 networks, commonly called "IPv4 as-a-S=
ervice" (IPv4aaS), as required
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in a world where IPv4 addresses are no=
 longer available, so hosts in
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 the customer LANs with IPv4-only or IP=
v6-only applications or
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 devices, requiring to communicate with=
 IPv4-only services at the
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Internet, are still able to do so.
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transi=
tion-ipv4aas/
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 There are also htmlized versions available at:
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-=
ipv4aas-04
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-t=
ransition-ipv4aas-04
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A diff from the previous version is available at:
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-tra=
nsition-ipv4aas-04
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from th=
e time of submission
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 until the htmlized version and diff are available at too=
ls.ietf.org.
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 _______________________________________________
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 v6ops mailing list
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 v6ops@ietf.org
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
=20
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.consulintel.es
The IPv6 Company
=20
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, =
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p=
artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons=
idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t=
hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in=
formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi=
ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
=20
=20
=20
_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

_______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie=
tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=20



**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.consulintel.es
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, =
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p=
artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons=
idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t=
hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in=
formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi=
ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.


--B_3613815570_2128340674
Content-type: text/html;
	charset="UTF-8"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable


Hi Yannis,
 
Thanks a lot for your input!
 
I think we just need to change in th=
e intro that text to:
=E2=80=9CThese routers rely u=
pon "Basic Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers" (RFC7084)=
.=E2=80=9D
 
We had an e=
ndless discussion about having a bit for RFC7084, and I think we should not=
 go back into that. My view now is, if you=E2=80=99re an ISP and will need =
IPv4aaS support, you just ask for the new RFC, no need to reference RFC7084=
, as it is already a MUST on it.
=
 
If you only need =E2=80=9CIPv6=E2=80=9D and no IPv4aaS (which I =
doubt it will be the case for at least a few years), then you keep asking o=
nly for RFC7084.

Regards,
Jordi<=
o:p>
 
 
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal> 
De: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.=
org> en nombre de Yannis Nikolopoulos <yanodd@otenet.gr>
Fec=
ha: mi=C3=A9rcoles, 4 de julio de 2018, 17:33
Para: JORDI PAL=
ET MARTINEZ <jordi.palet=3D40consulintel.es@dmarc.ietf.org>, <v6op=
s@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-t=
ransition-ipv4aas-04.txt
 
Hi,
just a ni=
t to pick:
 <=
/p>
1.=C2=A0 =
Introduction
 
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0 ...
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0 These routers are likely to rely upon=
 "Basic Requirements for IPv6
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Customer Edge Routers" ([RFC7084])

and then: 
 
3.=C2=A0 Requirements
 =

=
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0 The IPv6 Transition CE Router MUST comply wit=
h [RFC7084] (Basic
=C2=A0=C2=A0 Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers)
 
 
=
Also, as an operator who deals with CPE vendors, I need to really complain =
about having 2 RFCs instead of 7084bis. 

cheers,
Yanni=
s
&nbs=
p;
On 06/25=
/2018 10:51 AM, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:
Hi all,
 =
;
 
 
We have uploaded a new version of this draft.
 
 
 
No major changes, just=
 the text for the transition requirements (but not an actual change from th=
e previous version).
 
 
 
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/d=
raft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/?include_text=3D1
 
 
 
Regards,
 
Jordi
=
 
 
=

 
 
&n=
bsp;
 
 
=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----
 
De: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
 
Fecha: lunes, 25 de junio de 2018, 9:42
 
Para: <i-d-announce@ietf.=
org>
 
CC: <v6ops@ietf.org>
 
Asunto: [=
v6ops] I-D Action: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-04.txt
 
 
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A New Internet-Draf=
t is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This draft is a work item of the IPv6 =
Operations WG of the IETF.
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Title=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers to Supp=
ort IPv4 Connectivity as-a-Service
 
=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Authors=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : Jordi Palet Martinez
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Hans M.-H. Liu<=
/pre>
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Masanobu Kawashima=

 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 Filename=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : draft-ietf-v6op=
s-transition-ipv4aas-04.txt
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Pages=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : 21
 
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Date=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 : 2018-06-25
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 
 
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Abstract:
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 This document specifies the IPv4 service continuity r=
equirements for
&nbs=
p;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router, either provided by the service=

 
<=
pre style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 provi=
der or thru the retail market.
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=
=C2=A0 
 =

=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 Specifically, this document extends the "Basic Requirements for IP=
v6
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Cus=
tomer Edge Routers" in order to allow the provisioning of IPv6
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 transition services for =
the support of "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS)
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 by means of new transition=
 mechanisms.=C2=A0 The document only covers
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 transition technologies for deliverin=
g IPv4 in IPv6-only access
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 networks, commonly called "IPv4 as-a-Service&quo=
t; (IPv4aaS), as required
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in a world where IPv4 addresses are no longer availab=
le, so hosts in
&nbs=
p;
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 the customer LANs with IPv4-only or IPv6-only applications or
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 devices, =
requiring to communicate with IPv4-only services at the
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Internet, are still able =
to do so.
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 
 
=C2=
=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://datatracker.ietf=
.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 There are also htmlized versions available at:
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops=
-transition-ipv4aas-04
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-tr=
ansition-ipv4aas-04
<=
o:p> 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =

 
<=
pre style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 A diff from the previou=
s version is available at:
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-transi=
tion-ipv4aas-04
=
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Please note that it may take a couple of minutes f=
rom the time of submission
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=
=A0 until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 
 
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 
 
=C2=A0=C2=
=A0=C2=A0 _______________________________________________
<=
pre style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'> 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 v6ops mailing list
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 v6ops@ietf.o=
rg
 <=
/pre>
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinf=
o/v6ops
 
=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 <=
/pre>
 
 
 
 
*********************************=
*************
IPv4 is ove=
r
Are you ready for the n=
ew Internet ?
http://www.consulintel.es
The IPv6 Company
 
This electronic message contains information which may be privileged =
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____________=
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<=
pre style=3D'margin-left:35.4pt'>https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

_____=
__________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.or=
g https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops 

****=
******************************************

IPv4 is over

Are you ready for the new Internet ?

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This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
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--B_3613815570_2128340674--


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References: <153017691583.14743.17000446834856511528@ietfa.amsl.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
Organization: University of Auckland
To: draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis@ietf.org, IPv6 Operations 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-00.txt
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Hi,

Thanks for this draft.

> Abstract

This needs to be shorter. Three paragraphs is too much.

> ... policy should reflect that assignment of a single subnet is
> no longer appropriate unless the recipient explicitly agrees to the
> limitations implied by such an assignment.

I *strongly* suggest deleting the "unless" clause. It leaves a
loophole, and it could easily be hidden in shrink-wrap terms
and conditions so that a subscriber would agree without even
knowing about it. Reduce this simply to:

   ... policy should reflect that assignment of a single subnet is
   never appropriate.

> 1.  Introduction
...
>    1.  It is extremely discouraged that /128s be given out.  While there
>        may be some cases where assigning only a single address may be
>        justified, a site, by definition, implies multiple subnets and
>        multiple devices.

I find this a bit weak. Try:

   1.  It is extremely discouraged that /128s be given out.  While there
       may be some applications where assigning only a single address may be
       tolerated, a site, by definition, implies multiple subnets and
       multiple devices. Also, a /128 prevents any form of privacy-based
       addressing.

>    4.  This revision has been created to more clearly assert the
>        requirement to ensure that address assignments to end-sites
>        provide a sufficiently big number of subnets (/64 on classic
>        networks) to each end-site, taking under consideration the end-
>        site's future expected needs, new deployment expectations and new
>        protocol requirements, among others.  Once all these are
>        considered, it seems unlikely that a single subnet (/64) or even
>        a small number of them should be assigned, unless very clearly
>        justified and agreed to by the end-site.

The "unless" clause is dangerous because of shrink-wrap terms and 
conditions. I suggest deleting it.

> 2.  Considerations Regarding the Prefix Length
...
>    This consideration should be noticed, across this document, in the
>    sense that end-sites usually have subnets that use, by default,
>    SLAAC, and consequently, the LAP is mandatorily a /64.  Other
>    technologies, may have a different LAP, which must be used
>    accordingly.

I suggest s/Other/Future/ since /64 prevails everywhere today.

> 3.  On /48 Assignments to End-Sites
...
>    An important
>    goal in IPv6 is to significantly change the default and minimal end
>    site assignment, from "a single address" to "multiple networks" and
>    to ensure that end-sites can easily obtain address space.

I suggest adding something like this:

As the operational costs of carrier-grade NAT and address+port sharing
have shown, availability of multiple addresses and prefixes to end sites
that need them will be a considerable saving to their ISPs.

>    It might be tempting to give home sites a single /64, since that is
>    already significantly more address space compared with today's IPv4
>    practice.  However, this precludes the expectation that even home
>    sites will grow to support multiple subnets going forward.  Hence, it

s/expectation/certainty/

...
>    A key goal of the recommendations in [RFC3177] is to
>    ensure that upon renumbering, one does not have to deal with
>    renumbering into a smaller subnet size.

Perhaps add:

In particular this would apply to any site that switches to
an ISP that provides a longer prefix.

>    It should be noted that similar arguments apply to the management of
>    zone files in the DNS.  In particular, managing the reverse
>    (ip6.arpa) tree is simplified when all links are numbered using the
>    same subnet ids

s/numbered/renumbered/

...
>    years, and we don't recover back the /48's, we will be able to use
>    IPv6 addressing space for over 100.000 years.

Perhaps add:

This document does not advocate careless use of address space, but
there is objectively no reason to be restrictve.

...
>    Today typically, a home has already a considerable number of possible
>    subnets (a common CE has 4 LAN ports, 2 WiFi radios which support
>    several SSIDs each one, VoIP subnet, IPTV subnet, additional VLANs) 
>    and if downstream routers are used, there is a need for further
>    subnets.  This means that in a short term, assigning a /60 (16
>    subnets), it is already a really bad decision, as it may enforce IPv6
>    NAT between the main CE and downstream routers.

I suggest deleting "as it may enforce IPv6 NAT between the main CE and
downstream routers". Firstly it puts NAT into the reader's mind. Secondly,
it isn't the only solution - IIDs shorter than 64 could also be implemented.

> 4.  Impact on IPv6 Standards

I propose to simply delete this section.

Firstly, RFC3056 is deprecated so it's irrelevant today.
Secondly, the argument about ULAs (RFC4193) doesn't hold up.
ULAs are like any other /48 prefix - if you are forced to
renumber into a longer prefix, you lose some subnet bits.
That is already covered in the middle of section 3 (the
"key goal" sentence quoted above).

> 6.  Security Considerations
> 
>    This document has no known security implications.

Really? More prefix space offers more potential for scanning
attacks. More prefix space also allows the use of slightly
randomized prefixes and/or prefix-per host.

Also of course, a /128 would prevent any form of privacy-based
addressing.

> 8.  Acknowledgements
> 
>    The authors of this document will like to acknowledge the authors of
>    previous versions (Thomas Narten and Geoff Huston)

RFC3177 was signed by the whole IAB and IESG seated in 2001, and its
Acknowledgements read:

>>    This document originated from the IETF IPv6 directorate, with much
>>    input from the IAB and IESG.  The original text forming the basis of
>>    this document was contributed by Fred Baker and Brian Carpenter.
>>    Allison Mankin and Thomas Narten merged the original contributions
>>    into a single document, and Alain Durand edited the document through
>>    its final stages.

Regards
    Brian


From nobody Tue Jul 10 06:30:08 2018
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From: Kossut Tomasz - Hurt 
To: "nick.heatley@bt.com" , "marka@isc.org" , "cb.list6@gmail.com" 
CC: "v6ops@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
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Document: draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-05
Reviewer: Yoshifumi Nishida

I've reviewed this document as part of TSV-ART's ongoing effort to review
key IETF documents. These comments were written primarily for the transport
area directors, but are copied to the document's authors for their
information and to allow them to address any issues raised. Please always
CC tsv-art@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review.

Summary: This document is ready for publication.

- Major Issues: None.

- Minor Issues:

  Typos:

  Page 6:
       (Stateless Address Autoconfiguration, [RFC4682]
          ->
       (Stateless Address Autoconfiguration, [RFC4682])

       (by sending an RA with the preferred_lifetime set to 0 in the
corresponding PIO (Prefix Information option, [RFC4861])
          ->
        (by sending an RA with the preferred_lifetime set to 0 in the
corresponding PIO (Prefix Information option, [RFC4861]))

--
Yoshi

--0000000000005a55a90570b4ba80
Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Document: draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-05
Reviewer:=
 Yoshifumi Nishida

I've reviewed this document as part of TSV-AR=
T's ongoing effort to review key IETF documents. These comments were wr=
itten primarily for the transport area directors, but are copied to the doc=
ument's authors for their information and to allow them to address any =
issues raised. Please always CC tsv-art=
@ietf.org if you reply to or forward this review.

Summary: This =
document is ready for publication.

- Major Issues: None.

- Mi=
nor Issues:

=C2=A0 Typos:=C2=A0

=C2=A0 Pag=
e 6:
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(Stateless Address Autoconfiguration, [R=
FC4682]
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ->
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=
 =C2=A0(Stateless Address Autoconfiguration, [RFC4682])

=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0(by sending an RA with the preferred_lifetime set to 0 in =
the corresponding PIO (Prefix Information option, [RFC4861]) 
=C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 ->
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (by sending a=
n RA with the preferred_lifetime set to 0 in the corresponding PIO (Prefix =
Information option, [RFC4861]))

--
Yoshi


--0000000000005a55a90570b4ba80--


From nobody Thu Jul 12 06:01:10 2018
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Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:01:03 +0200
From: Gert Doering 
To: Kossut Tomasz - Hurt 
Cc: "nick.heatley@bt.com" , "marka@isc.org" , "cb.list6@gmail.com" , "v6ops@ietf.org" 
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Hi,

On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 01:29:41PM +0000, Kossut Tomasz - Hurt wrote:
> So far DNS64 is mandatory for iOS.
> 
> Orange Poland is running IPv6-only mobile network without DNS64 since 2012.

So how do their customers reach all those ipv4-only websites out there, 
like github.com?

(I'm all for having IPv6-only things, but as long as the rest of the world
is dragging their feet, between a rock and a hard place...)

Gert Doering
        -- NetMaster
-- 
have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG                      Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael Emmer
Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen                 HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         USt-IdNr.: DE813185279


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From: 
To: Gert Doering , KOSSUT Tomasz O-PL 
CC: "nick.heatley@bt.com" , "v6ops@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
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Hi Gert,=20

No surprise out there: Address synthesis on the handset (CLAT) + NAT64 at t=
he network side.

Cheers,
Med

> -----Message d'origine-----
> De=A0: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Gert Doering
> Envoy=E9=A0: jeudi 12 juillet 2018 15:01
> =C0=A0: KOSSUT Tomasz O-PL
> Cc=A0: nick.heatley@bt.com; v6ops@ietf.org
> Objet=A0: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
>=20
> Hi,
>=20
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 01:29:41PM +0000, Kossut Tomasz - Hurt wrote:
> > So far DNS64 is mandatory for iOS.
> >
> > Orange Poland is running IPv6-only mobile network without DNS64 since 2=
012.
>=20
> So how do their customers reach all those ipv4-only websites out there,
> like github.com?
>=20
> (I'm all for having IPv6-only things, but as long as the rest of the worl=
d
> is dragging their feet, between a rock and a hard place...)
>=20
> Gert Doering
>         -- NetMaster
> --
> have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?
>=20
> SpaceNet AG                      Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael
> Emmer
> Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann
> D-80807 Muenchen                 HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)
> Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" 
To: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "Gert Doering" , KOSSUT Tomasz O-PL 
CC: "nick.heatley@bt.com" , "v6ops@ietf.org" 
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Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 17:56:29 +0200
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" , "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , Gert Doering , KOSSUT Tomasz O-PL 
CC: "nick.heatley@bt.com" , "v6ops@ietf.org" 
Message-ID: <1E4DFE85-4B9D-4BD7-9956-4D2F66B8A94F@consulintel.es>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
References:    <2F5CCC76-4364-4B66-B956-199969CFFCB4@isc.org>  <3fa26b65c7c64eada0ae04caa0a94ddf@orange.com> <20180712130103.GQ11393@Space.Net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF599FE@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2B33FCAF-C612-45FC-AA9F-7F087F164937@cisco.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
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--B_3614262989_577259618
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	charset="UTF-8"
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If there is a CLAT, you don=E2=80=99t need synthesis. The impact is that th=
e CLAT will do always NAT46, for any IPv4 destination, so in cellular devic=
es, there may be some extra battery impact.

=20

If you want to have synthesis, the safer approach is doing it in the =E2=80=
=9Cend-device=E2=80=9D, this way even if this device is a DNSSEC validator,=
 will not create a trouble. This is the way RFC8305 (HEv2) is using for lit=
erals.


Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20

=20

De: v6ops  en nombre de "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" 
Fecha: jueves, 12 de julio de 2018, 17:50
Para: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , Gert D=
oering , KOSSUT Tomasz O-PL 
CC: "nick.heatley@bt.com" , "v6ops@ietf.org" 
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments

=20

Med,=20

=20

A-AAAA address synthesis without DNS64 usage??  =20

=20

--=20

Cheers,

Rajiv=20

=20

=20

From: v6ops  on behalf of "mohamed.boucadair@orange=
.com" 
Date: Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 9:45 AM
To: Gert Doering , KOSSUT Tomasz O-PL 
Cc: "nick.heatley@bt.com" , "v6ops@ietf.org" 
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments

=20

Hi Gert,=20

=20

No surprise out there: Address synthesis on the handset (CLAT) + NAT64 at t=
he network side.

=20

Cheers,

Med

=20

-----Message d'origine-----

De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Gert Doering

Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 12 juillet 2018 15:01

=C3=80 : KOSSUT Tomasz O-PL

Cc : nick.heatley@bt.com; v6ops@ietf.org

Objet : Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments

Hi,

On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 01:29:41PM +0000, Kossut Tomasz - Hurt wrote:

> So far DNS64 is mandatory for iOS.

>=20

> Orange Poland is running IPv6-only mobile network without DNS64 since 201=
2.

So how do their customers reach all those ipv4-only websites out there,

like github.com?

(I'm all for having IPv6-only things, but as long as the rest of the world

is dragging their feet, between a rock and a hard place...)

Gert Doering

         -- NetMaster

--

have you enabled IPv6 on something today...?

SpaceNet AG                      Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael

Emmer

Joseph-Dollinger-Bogen 14        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. Grundner-Culemann

D-80807 Muenchen                 HRB: 136055 (AG Muenchen)

Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444         USt-IdNr.: DE813185279

_______________________________________________

v6ops mailing list

v6ops@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

=20

_______________________________________________

v6ops mailing list

v6ops@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

=20

_______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie=
tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=20



**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.consulintel.es
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, =
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p=
artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons=
idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t=
hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in=
formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi=
ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
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--B_3614262989_577259618
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	charset="UTF-8"
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If there is a CLAT, you don=E2=80=99t need synthesis. The imp=
act is that the CLAT will do always NAT46, for any IPv4 destination, so in =
cellular devices, there may be some extra battery impact.=

 
If you want to have synthesis, the safe=
r approach is doing it in the =E2=80=9Cend-device=E2=80=9D, this way even i=
f this device is a DNSSEC validator, will not create a trouble. This is the=
 way RFC8305 (HEv2) is using for literals.
Regard=
s,
Jordi
 
&nb=
sp;
 
De: v6ops =
<v6ops-bounces@ietf.org> en nombre de "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)"=
; <rajiva=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.org>
Fecha: jueves, 12 d=
e julio de 2018, 17:50
Para: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com&q=
uot; <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>, Gert Doering <gert@space.net&=
gt;, KOSSUT Tomasz O-PL <tomasz.kossut@orange.com>
CC: &quo=
t;nick.heatley@bt.com" <nick.heatley@bt.com>, "v6ops@ietf.o=
rg" <v6ops@ietf.org>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v=
6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
 
Med, 
 
A-AAAA address synthesis without DNS64 u=
sage??   
 
-- 
Cheers,
Rajiv 
 
 
From: v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.org=
> on behalf of "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" <mohamed.bouc=
adair@orange.com>
Date: Thursday, July 12, 2018 at 9:45 AM
=
To: Gert Doering <gert@space.net>, KOSSUT Tomasz O-PL <toma=
sz.kossut@orange.com>
Cc: "nick.heatley@bt.com" <=
nick.heatley@bt.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org><=
br>Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 commen=
ts
 
Hi Gert, 
 
No surprise out there: Address synthesis on the handset (CLAT) + NAT64 at the network side.
&=
nbsp;
Cheers,
Med
 
-----Message d'origine-----
De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de Gert Do=
ering
Envoy=C3=A9 : jeudi 12 juillet 2018 15:01
=C3=80 : KOSSUT T=
omasz O-PL
Objet :=
 Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
<=
/div>
Hi,<=
/p>
On Tue, Jul=
 10, 2018 at 01:29:41PM +0000, Kossut Tomasz - Hurt wrote:
> So far DNS6=
4 is mandatory for iOS.
> 
> Orange Poland is running IPv6-only =
mobile network without DNS64 since 2012.
So how do their customers reach a=
ll those ipv4-only websites out there,
like github.com?
(I'm all for having=
 IPv6-only things, but as long as the rest of the world
is dragging their f=
eet, between a rock and a hard place...)
Gert Doering
=

   &n=
bsp;     -- NetMaster
--
have you enabled IPv6 on somet=
hing today...?
SpaceNet AG        &=
nbsp;           &nbs=
p; Vorstand: Sebastian v. Bomhard, Michael
Emmer
<=
div>
Joseph-Dollinger-Boge=
n 14        Aufsichtsratsvors.: A. =
Grundner-Culemann
D-80807 Muenchen       =
;          HRB: 136055 (AG Mue=
nchen)
Tel: +49 (0)89/32356-444       &n=
bsp; USt-IdNr.: DE813185279
_______________________________________________=

v6ops mailing list
 
_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing lis=
t
=

 
_______________________________________________ v6ops mailing li=
st v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops 

**********************************************

IPv4 is over

Are you ready for the new Internet ?

http://www.consulintel.es

The IPv6 Company



This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, =
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p=
artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons=
idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t=
hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in=
formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi=
ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.





--B_3614262989_577259618--


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To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" 
References:    <2F5CCC76-4364-4B66-B956-199969CFFCB4@isc.org>  <3fa26b65c7c64eada0ae04caa0a94ddf@orange.com> <20180712130103.GQ11393@Space.Net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF599FE@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2B33FCAF-C612-45FC-AA9F-7F087F164937@cisco.com>
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> On Jul 12, 2018, at 8:50 AM, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) =
 wrote:
>=20
> A-AAAA address synthesis without DNS64 usage??

As described in RFC 7050/7051? Why not?

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To: "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" , Gert Doering ,  KOSSUT Tomasz O-PL 
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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-deployment-02 comments
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Reviewer: Sheng Jiang
Review result: Ready

The current 05 version does address my issues in previous version. So, it is clear from me.


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From: "xiechf.bri@chinatelecom.cn" 
To: fredbaker.ietf ,  "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" 
Cc: "nick.heatley@bt.com" , v6ops ,  "KOSSUT Tomasz O-PL" 
References: ,  ,  ,  <2F5CCC76-4364-4B66-B956-199969CFFCB4@isc.org>,  , <3fa26b65c7c64eada0ae04caa0a94ddf@orange.com>,  <20180712130103.GQ11393@Space.Net>,  <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF599FE@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>, <2B33FCAF-C612-45FC-AA9F-7F087F164937@cisco.com>,  
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I=E2=80=99m not sure this is a topic =
for this draft.
 
It can=
 be argued that any transition mechanism is against =E2=80=9Cpromoting=E2=
=80=9D the IPv6 deployment. It is a balance between deploying IPv6 and maki=
ng sure that the way we do it is not disruptive to create =E2=80=9Ctoo many=
=E2=80=9D problems for customers.
 <=
/span>
Any transition mechanisms is imperfect, and this means that if =
that means that the same service being IPv6 native works better, sooner or =
later, it will be preferred.

Regards,<=
/span>
J=
ordi
 
 
 
De:=
 v6ops <v6ops-bo=
unces@ietf.org> en nombre de "xiechf.bri@chinatelecom.cn" <=
xiechf.bri@chinatelecom.cn>
Fecha: domingo, 15 de julio de 201=
8, 21:54
Para: "fredbaker.ietf" <fredbaker.ietf@gmai=
l.com>, "Rajiv Asati (rajiva)" <rajiva=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.=
ietf.org>
CC: "nick.heatley@bt.com" <nick.heatley=
@bt.com>, v6ops <v6ops@ietf.org>, KOSSUT Tomasz O-PL <tomasz.ko=
ssut@orange.com>
Asunto: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-d=
eployment-02 comments
 
 
One of the debate about NAT64 is=
 that it will slow down the transition process of IPv6, for it allow the ex=
istance of IPv4, especially in the content side, the OTT, especially smalle=
r ones,  will have less incentive to move to IPv6. I do not mean that =
this point is right,  but this draft should give some explanation or c=
larification to this issue.
 
Thank you!
Chongfeng
 
=
xiechf.bri@chinatelecom.cn
 
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-palet-v6ops-nat64-dep=
loyment-02 comments
 
 
> On Jul 12, 2=
018, at 8:50 AM, Rajiv Asati (rajiva) <rajiva=3D40cisco.com@dmarc.ietf.o=
rg> wrote:
> 
> A-AAAA address synthesis without DNS64 usage??
&nb=
sp;
As described in RFC 7050/7051? Why not?
 
 
_________________=
______________________________
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=

v6ops@ietf.org=

https://ww=
w.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
___________________________=
____________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf.org https://www.ietf.org=
/mailman/listinfo/v6ops 

**************************=
********************

IPv4 is over

Are you ready for the new Internet ?

http://www.consulintel.es

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To: Brian E Carpenter 
References:    <2F5CCC76-4364-4B66-B956-199969CFFCB4@isc.org>  <3fa26b65c7c64eada0ae04caa0a94ddf@orange.com> <20180712130103.GQ11393@Space.Net> <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF599FE@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2B33FCAF-C612-45FC-AA9F-7F087F164937@cisco.com>  <2018071609524852778154@chinatelecom.cn> <5E636164-1250-47A7-A440-378165B34347@gmail.com> <9e1358aa-b962-539f-558b-dbd478ef3327@gmail.com>
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On Jul 16, 2018, at 8:02 AM, Brian E Carpenter =
 wrote:
> So what we need is for IPv4 to be slower and less functional than =
IPv6,
> which we can only reasonably arrange by making IPv6 better...

You mean, by stopping adding features to it? :-)

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From: "Mudric, Dusan (Dusan)" 
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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health-02.txt
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From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: Brian E Carpenter , , IPv6 Operations 
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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-00.txt
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-00.txt
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Hi Brian,



Thanks a lot for commenting and sorry the late answer ... too busy last wee=
ks.



Comments in-line below (subjected to my co-author agreement), basically, ag=
ree with all your inputs, except a couple of points.



Thanks!



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: v6ops  en nombre de Brian E Carpenter 

Organizaci=C3=B3n: University of Auckland

Fecha: domingo, 8 de julio de 2018, 17:43

Para: , IPv6 Operations 

Asunto: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-00.txt



    Hi,

   =20

    Thanks for this draft.

   =20

    > Abstract

   =20

    This needs to be shorter. Three paragraphs is too much.



For the next version, I've reduced 50% the length of the 1st paragraph. 3rd=
 paragraph, I recall is mandatory (IDNits).



   =20

    > ... policy should reflect that assignment of a single subnet is

    > no longer appropriate unless the recipient explicitly agrees to the

    > limitations implied by such an assignment.

   =20

    I *strongly* suggest deleting the "unless" clause. It leaves a

    loophole, and it could easily be hidden in shrink-wrap terms

    and conditions so that a subscriber would agree without even

    knowing about it. Reduce this simply to:

   =20

       ... policy should reflect that assignment of a single subnet is

       never appropriate.



Agreed and done.



   =20

    > 1.  Introduction

    ....

    >    1.  It is extremely discouraged that /128s be given out.  While th=
ere

    >        may be some cases where assigning only a single address may be

    >        justified, a site, by definition, implies multiple subnets and

    >        multiple devices.

   =20

    I find this a bit weak. Try:

   =20

       1.  It is extremely discouraged that /128s be given out.  While ther=
e

           may be some applications where assigning only a single address m=
ay be

           tolerated, a site, by definition, implies multiple subnets and

           multiple devices. Also, a /128 prevents any form of privacy-base=
d

           addressing.



Agreed!   =20



    >    4.  This revision has been created to more clearly assert the

    >        requirement to ensure that address assignments to end-sites

    >        provide a sufficiently big number of subnets (/64 on classic

    >        networks) to each end-site, taking under consideration the end=
-

    >        site's future expected needs, new deployment expectations and =
new

    >        protocol requirements, among others.  Once all these are

    >        considered, it seems unlikely that a single subnet (/64) or ev=
en

    >        a small number of them should be assigned, unless very clearly

    >        justified and agreed to by the end-site.

   =20

    The "unless" clause is dangerous because of shrink-wrap terms and=20

    conditions. I suggest deleting it.



Agreed!

   =20

    > 2.  Considerations Regarding the Prefix Length

    ....

    >    This consideration should be noticed, across this document, in the

    >    sense that end-sites usually have subnets that use, by default,

    >    SLAAC, and consequently, the LAP is mandatorily a /64.  Other

    >    technologies, may have a different LAP, which must be used

    >    accordingly.

   =20

    I suggest s/Other/Future/ since /64 prevails everywhere today.



Agreed!

   =20

    > 3.  On /48 Assignments to End-Sites

    ....

    >    An important

    >    goal in IPv6 is to significantly change the default and minimal en=
d

    >    site assignment, from "a single address" to "multiple networks" an=
d

    >    to ensure that end-sites can easily obtain address space.

   =20

    I suggest adding something like this:

   =20

    As the operational costs of carrier-grade NAT and address+port sharing

    have shown, availability of multiple addresses and prefixes to end site=
s

    that need them will be a considerable saving to their ISPs.



Agreed!

   =20

    >    It might be tempting to give home sites a single /64, since that i=
s

    >    already significantly more address space compared with today's IPv=
4

    >    practice.  However, this precludes the expectation that even home

    >    sites will grow to support multiple subnets going forward.  Hence,=
 it

   =20

    s/expectation/certainty/



Agreed!

   =20

    ....

    >    A key goal of the recommendations in [RFC3177] is to

    >    ensure that upon renumbering, one does not have to deal with

    >    renumbering into a smaller subnet size.

   =20

    Perhaps add:

   =20

    In particular this would apply to any site that switches to

    an ISP that provides a longer prefix.



Agreed!

   =20

    >    It should be noted that similar arguments apply to the management =
of

    >    zone files in the DNS.  In particular, managing the reverse

    >    (ip6.arpa) tree is simplified when all links are numbered using th=
e

    >    same subnet ids

   =20

    s/numbered/renumbered/



Agreed!

   =20

    ....

    >    years, and we don't recover back the /48's, we will be able to use

    >    IPv6 addressing space for over 100.000 years.

   =20

    Perhaps add:

   =20

    This document does not advocate careless use of address space, but

    there is objectively no reason to be restrictve.



Agreed!

   =20

    ....

    >    Today typically, a home has already a considerable number of possi=
ble

    >    subnets (a common CE has 4 LAN ports, 2 WiFi radios which support

    >    several SSIDs each one, VoIP subnet, IPTV subnet, additional VLANs=
)=20

    >    and if downstream routers are used, there is a need for further

    >    subnets.  This means that in a short term, assigning a /60 (16

    >    subnets), it is already a really bad decision, as it may enforce I=
Pv6

    >    NAT between the main CE and downstream routers.

   =20

    I suggest deleting "as it may enforce IPv6 NAT between the main CE and

    downstream routers". Firstly it puts NAT into the reader's mind. Second=
ly,

    it isn't the only solution - IIDs shorter than 64 could also be impleme=
nted.



Agreed!

   =20

    > 4.  Impact on IPv6 Standards

   =20

    I propose to simply delete this section.

   =20

    Firstly, RFC3056 is deprecated so it's irrelevant today.

    Secondly, the argument about ULAs (RFC4193) doesn't hold up.

    ULAs are like any other /48 prefix - if you are forced to

    renumber into a longer prefix, you lose some subnet bits.

    That is already covered in the middle of section 3 (the

    "key goal" sentence quoted above).





I recall we deprecated the 6to4 anycast, but not 6to4, in fact 6to4 to 6to4=
 traffic is still useful for peer to peer.

   =20

    > 6.  Security Considerations

    >=20

    >    This document has no known security implications.

   =20

    Really? More prefix space offers more potential for scanning

    attacks. More prefix space also allows the use of slightly

    randomized prefixes and/or prefix-per host.

   =20

    Also of course, a /128 would prevent any form of privacy-based

    addressing.



I've introduced new text on those points.

   =20

    > 8.  Acknowledgements

    >=20

    >    The authors of this document will like to acknowledge the authors =
of

    >    previous versions (Thomas Narten and Geoff Huston)

   =20

    RFC3177 was signed by the whole IAB and IESG seated in 2001, and its

    Acknowledgements read:

   =20

    >>    This document originated from the IETF IPv6 directorate, with muc=
h

    >>    input from the IAB and IESG.  The original text forming the basis=
 of

    >>    this document was contributed by Fred Baker and Brian Carpenter.

    >>    Allison Mankin and Thomas Narten merged the original contribution=
s

    >>    into a single document, and Alain Durand edited the document thro=
ugh

    >>    its final stages.

=20

Agreed!

  =20

    Regards

        Brian

   =20

    _______________________________________________

    v6ops mailing list

    v6ops@ietf.org

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

   =20




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From: Lea Roberts 
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To: Brian E Carpenter , JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-00.txt
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hi Brian and Jordi -

excellent comments and I agree also.

thank you!!
/Lea

On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, JORDI PALET MARTINEZ wrote:

> Hi Brian,
>
>
>
> Thanks a lot for commenting and sorry the late answer ... too busy last weeks.
>
>
>
> Comments in-line below (subjected to my co-author agreement), basically, agree with all your inputs, except a couple of points.
>
>
>
> Thanks!
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jordi
>
> 
>
> 
>
>
>
> -----Mensaje original-----
>
> De: v6ops  en nombre de Brian E Carpenter 
>
> Organizaci?n: University of Auckland
>
> Fecha: domingo, 8 de julio de 2018, 17:43
>
> Para: , IPv6 Operations 
>
> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] I-D Action: draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-00.txt
>
>
>
>    Hi,
>
> 
>
>    Thanks for this draft.
>
> 
>
>    > Abstract
>
> 
>
>    This needs to be shorter. Three paragraphs is too much.
>
>
>
> For the next version, I've reduced 50% the length of the 1st paragraph. 3rd paragraph, I recall is mandatory (IDNits).
>
>
>
> 
>
>    > ... policy should reflect that assignment of a single subnet is
>
>    > no longer appropriate unless the recipient explicitly agrees to the
>
>    > limitations implied by such an assignment.
>
> 
>
>    I *strongly* suggest deleting the "unless" clause. It leaves a
>
>    loophole, and it could easily be hidden in shrink-wrap terms
>
>    and conditions so that a subscriber would agree without even
>
>    knowing about it. Reduce this simply to:
>
> 
>
>       ... policy should reflect that assignment of a single subnet is
>
>       never appropriate.
>
>
>
> Agreed and done.
>
>
>
> 
>
>    > 1.  Introduction
>
>    ....
>
>    >    1.  It is extremely discouraged that /128s be given out.  While there
>
>    >        may be some cases where assigning only a single address may be
>
>    >        justified, a site, by definition, implies multiple subnets and
>
>    >        multiple devices.
>
> 
>
>    I find this a bit weak. Try:
>
> 
>
>       1.  It is extremely discouraged that /128s be given out.  While there
>
>           may be some applications where assigning only a single address may be
>
>           tolerated, a site, by definition, implies multiple subnets and
>
>           multiple devices. Also, a /128 prevents any form of privacy-based
>
>           addressing.
>
>
>
> Agreed! 
>
>
>
>    >    4.  This revision has been created to more clearly assert the
>
>    >        requirement to ensure that address assignments to end-sites
>
>    >        provide a sufficiently big number of subnets (/64 on classic
>
>    >        networks) to each end-site, taking under consideration the end-
>
>    >        site's future expected needs, new deployment expectations and new
>
>    >        protocol requirements, among others.  Once all these are
>
>    >        considered, it seems unlikely that a single subnet (/64) or even
>
>    >        a small number of them should be assigned, unless very clearly
>
>    >        justified and agreed to by the end-site.
>
> 
>
>    The "unless" clause is dangerous because of shrink-wrap terms and 
>
>    conditions. I suggest deleting it.
>
>
>
> Agreed!
>
> 
>
>    > 2.  Considerations Regarding the Prefix Length
>
>    ....
>
>    >    This consideration should be noticed, across this document, in the
>
>    >    sense that end-sites usually have subnets that use, by default,
>
>    >    SLAAC, and consequently, the LAP is mandatorily a /64.  Other
>
>    >    technologies, may have a different LAP, which must be used
>
>    >    accordingly.
>
> 
>
>    I suggest s/Other/Future/ since /64 prevails everywhere today.
>
>
>
> Agreed!
>
> 
>
>    > 3.  On /48 Assignments to End-Sites
>
>    ....
>
>    >    An important
>
>    >    goal in IPv6 is to significantly change the default and minimal end
>
>    >    site assignment, from "a single address" to "multiple networks" and
>
>    >    to ensure that end-sites can easily obtain address space.
>
> 
>
>    I suggest adding something like this:
>
> 
>
>    As the operational costs of carrier-grade NAT and address+port sharing
>
>    have shown, availability of multiple addresses and prefixes to end sites
>
>    that need them will be a considerable saving to their ISPs.
>
>
>
> Agreed!
>
> 
>
>    >    It might be tempting to give home sites a single /64, since that is
>
>    >    already significantly more address space compared with today's IPv4
>
>    >    practice.  However, this precludes the expectation that even home
>
>    >    sites will grow to support multiple subnets going forward.  Hence, it
>
> 
>
>    s/expectation/certainty/
>
>
>
> Agreed!
>
> 
>
>    ....
>
>    >    A key goal of the recommendations in [RFC3177] is to
>
>    >    ensure that upon renumbering, one does not have to deal with
>
>    >    renumbering into a smaller subnet size.
>
> 
>
>    Perhaps add:
>
> 
>
>    In particular this would apply to any site that switches to
>
>    an ISP that provides a longer prefix.
>
>
>
> Agreed!
>
> 
>
>    >    It should be noted that similar arguments apply to the management of
>
>    >    zone files in the DNS.  In particular, managing the reverse
>
>    >    (ip6.arpa) tree is simplified when all links are numbered using the
>
>    >    same subnet ids
>
> 
>
>    s/numbered/renumbered/
>
>
>
> Agreed!
>
> 
>
>    ....
>
>    >    years, and we don't recover back the /48's, we will be able to use
>
>    >    IPv6 addressing space for over 100.000 years.
>
> 
>
>    Perhaps add:
>
> 
>
>    This document does not advocate careless use of address space, but
>
>    there is objectively no reason to be restrictve.
>
>
>
> Agreed!
>
> 
>
>    ....
>
>    >    Today typically, a home has already a considerable number of possible
>
>    >    subnets (a common CE has 4 LAN ports, 2 WiFi radios which support
>
>    >    several SSIDs each one, VoIP subnet, IPTV subnet, additional VLANs) 
>
>    >    and if downstream routers are used, there is a need for further
>
>    >    subnets.  This means that in a short term, assigning a /60 (16
>
>    >    subnets), it is already a really bad decision, as it may enforce IPv6
>
>    >    NAT between the main CE and downstream routers.
>
> 
>
>    I suggest deleting "as it may enforce IPv6 NAT between the main CE and
>
>    downstream routers". Firstly it puts NAT into the reader's mind. Secondly,
>
>    it isn't the only solution - IIDs shorter than 64 could also be implemented.
>
>
>
> Agreed!
>
> 
>
>    > 4.  Impact on IPv6 Standards
>
> 
>
>    I propose to simply delete this section.
>
> 
>
>    Firstly, RFC3056 is deprecated so it's irrelevant today.
>
>    Secondly, the argument about ULAs (RFC4193) doesn't hold up.
>
>    ULAs are like any other /48 prefix - if you are forced to
>
>    renumber into a longer prefix, you lose some subnet bits.
>
>    That is already covered in the middle of section 3 (the
>
>    "key goal" sentence quoted above).
>
>
>
>
>
> I recall we deprecated the 6to4 anycast, but not 6to4, in fact 6to4 to 6to4 traffic is still useful for peer to peer.
>
> 
>
>    > 6.  Security Considerations
>
>    > 
>
>    >    This document has no known security implications.
>
> 
>
>    Really? More prefix space offers more potential for scanning
>
>    attacks. More prefix space also allows the use of slightly
>
>    randomized prefixes and/or prefix-per host.
>
> 
>
>    Also of course, a /128 would prevent any form of privacy-based
>
>    addressing.
>
>
>
> I've introduced new text on those points.
>
> 
>
>    > 8.  Acknowledgements
>
>    > 
>
>    >    The authors of this document will like to acknowledge the authors of
>
>    >    previous versions (Thomas Narten and Geoff Huston)
>
> 
>
>    RFC3177 was signed by the whole IAB and IESG seated in 2001, and its
>
>    Acknowledgements read:
>
> 
>
>    >>    This document originated from the IETF IPv6 directorate, with much
>
>    >>    input from the IAB and IESG.  The original text forming the basis of
>
>    >>    this document was contributed by Fred Baker and Brian Carpenter.
>
>    >>    Allison Mankin and Thomas Narten merged the original contributions
>
>    >>    into a single document, and Alain Durand edited the document through
>
>    >>    its final stages.
>
> 
>
> Agreed!
>
> 
>
>    Regards
>
>        Brian
>
> 
>
>    _______________________________________________
>
>    v6ops mailing list
>
>    v6ops@ietf.org
>
>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>
> 
>
>
>
>
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.consulintel.es
> The IPv6 Company
>
> This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.
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From: Fred Baker 
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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 17:20:09 -0400
To: v6ops 
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Subject: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost to working group draft - Yes/No?
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The author of draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost has asked for the draft to =
become a working group draft. The chairs need the opinions of the =
working group. The chairs are interested in all viewpoints, but =
especially those of operators that expect to use the proposed concepts =
and technology in their network, or expect to solve the same problem in =
a different way.

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
  "Multi-Addressing Considerations for IPv6 Prefix Delegation", Fred =
Templin,
  2018-06-14

Please reply to this email with the subject line amended to replace =
"Yes/No" with "Yes" or "No". Please feel free to express your viewpoint =
more completely in the body.

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To: Fred Baker , v6ops 
References: <0CC3C53A-F8DE-40D3-8D47-A5A4C7F065EF@gmail.com>
From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:50:01 +1200
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost to working group draft - Yes
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Important topic, and I'm sure there will be some more points to add.
When there's a WG -00 draft I will review it.

Regards
   Brian

On 20/07/2018 09:20, Fred Baker wrote:
> The author of draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost has asked for the draft to become a working group draft. The chairs need the opinions of the working group. The chairs are interested in all viewpoints, but especially those of operators that expect to use the proposed concepts and technology in their network, or expect to solve the same problem in a different way.
> 
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
>   "Multi-Addressing Considerations for IPv6 Prefix Delegation", Fred Templin,
>   2018-06-14
> 
> Please reply to this email with the subject line amended to replace "Yes/No" with "Yes" or "No". Please feel free to express your viewpoint more completely in the body.
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
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> 


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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 18:53:07 -0400
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: v6ops 
Message-ID: <387FFB49-8ED5-40EC-82AB-E0AA9F6005E5@consulintel.es>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost to working group draft - Yes
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As already indicated in previous occasions, I think this is useful.



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: v6ops  en nombre de Fred Baker 

Fecha: jueves, 19 de julio de 2018, 17:20

Para: v6ops 

Asunto: [v6ops] draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost to working group draft - Yes/No?



    The author of draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost has asked for the draft to bec=
ome a working group draft. The chairs need the opinions of the working grou=
p. The chairs are interested in all viewpoints, but especially those of ope=
rators that expect to use the proposed concepts and technology in their net=
work, or expect to solve the same problem in a different way.

   =20

    https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost

    https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost

      "Multi-Addressing Considerations for IPv6 Prefix Delegation", Fred Te=
mplin,

      2018-06-14

   =20

    Please reply to this email with the subject line amended to replace "Ye=
s/No" with "Yes" or "No". Please feel free to express your viewpoint more c=
ompletely in the body.

    _______________________________________________

    v6ops mailing list

    v6ops@ietf.org

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

   =20




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Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 19:09:33 -0400
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: v6ops 
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Thread-Topic: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas, RFC7608 and last call
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Following up the comment from Lorenzo in the mike today.



This is the item under discussion:



***

3.1.  General Requirements



   A new general requirement is added, in order to ensure that the IPv6

   Transition CE Router respects the IPv6 prefix length as a parameter:



   G-1:  The IPv6 Transition CE Router MUST comply with [RFC7608] (IPv6

         Prefix Length Recommendation for Forwarding).

***



We included this as a request from one of the folks that contributed to the document and we understood that it makes sense for a router to support this requirement.



Talking afterwards with Lorenzo it seems that even if that's correct, including RFC7608 and not many other RFCs that a router should support is not the best and that will mean we should include a (long) list of the other documents.



Also considering that the goal of the document is the support of transition, and RFC7608 is not related to that, we believe the best is to remove it.



If someone has a strong argument to keep it, please, let us know immediately, otherwise we will submit a new version without this, so reviewers can have a "clean" document and move to a last-call.



Regards,

Jordi

 

 




**********************************************
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A New Internet-Draft is available from the on-line Internet-Drafts directories.
This draft is a work item of the IPv6 Operations WG of the IETF.

        Title           : Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers to Support IPv4 Connectivity as-a-Service
        Authors         : Jordi Palet Martinez
                          Hans M.-H. Liu
                          Masanobu Kawashima
	Filename        : draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05.txt
	Pages           : 21
	Date            : 2018-07-20

Abstract:
   This document specifies the IPv4 service continuity requirements for
   an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router, either provided by the service
   provider or thru the retail market.

   Specifically, this document extends the "Basic Requirements for IPv6
   Customer Edge Routers" in order to allow the provisioning of IPv6
   transition services for the support of "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS)
   by means of new transition mechanisms.  The document only covers
   transition technologies for delivering IPv4 in IPv6-only access
   networks, commonly called "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS), as required
   in a world where IPv4 addresses are no longer available, so hosts in
   the customer LANs with IPv4-only or IPv6-only applications or
   devices, requiring to communicate with IPv4-only services at the
   Internet, are still able to do so.


The IETF datatracker status page for this draft is:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas/

There are also htmlized versions available at:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05

A diff from the previous version is available at:
https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05


Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submission
until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

Internet-Drafts are also available by anonymous FTP at:
ftp://ftp.ietf.org/internet-drafts/


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From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: v6ops 
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Hi all,



Following yesterday discussion, I've posted a new version, removing G-1 (RF=
C7608).



Also, considering draft-pref64folks-6man-ra-pref64, we have included this (=
after consulting with the chairs, as it is a time being an individual ID).



We have also included a very simple priority mechanism in case several NAT6=
4 prefix discovery are available.



As we have free time today in the meeting, if somebody disagree with this, =
please speak up and let's discuss it.



Thanks!



Here is the relevant text:



   464XLAT-4:  The IPv6 Transition CE Router MUST implement

               [I-D.pref64folks-6man-ra-pref64] (Discovering PREF64 in

               Router Advertisements) and [RFC7050] (Discovery of the

               IPv6 Prefix Used for IPv6 Address Synthesis) in order to

               discover the PLAT-side translation IPv4 and IPv6

               prefix(es)/suffix(es).



   464XLAT-7:  The priority for the NAT64 prefix, in case the network

               provides several choices, MUST be: 1) [RFC7225], 2)

               [RFC8115], 3) [I-D.pref64folks-6man-ra-pref64] and 4)

               [RFC7050].



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20





=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: 

Fecha: viernes, 20 de julio de 2018, 9:12

Para: Masanobu Kawashima , "Hans M.-H. Liu" , Jordi Palet Martinez ,=
 Jordi Palet , Hans Liu 

Asunto: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05=
.txt



   =20

    A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05.txt

    has been successfully submitted by Jordi Palet Martinez and posted to t=
he

    IETF repository.

   =20

    Name:		draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas

    Revision:	05

    Title:		Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers to Support IPv4 Con=
nectivity as-a-Service

    Document date:	2018-07-20

    Group:		v6ops

    Pages:		21

    URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v6ops-t=
ransition-ipv4aas-05.txt

    Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-trans=
ition-ipv4aas/

    Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition=
-ipv4aas-05

    Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-=
transition-ipv4aas

    Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6ops-tr=
ansition-ipv4aas-05

   =20

    Abstract:

       This document specifies the IPv4 service continuity requirements for

       an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router, either provided by the service

       provider or thru the retail market.

   =20

       Specifically, this document extends the "Basic Requirements for IPv6

       Customer Edge Routers" in order to allow the provisioning of IPv6

       transition services for the support of "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS)

       by means of new transition mechanisms.  The document only covers

       transition technologies for delivering IPv4 in IPv6-only access

       networks, commonly called "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS), as required

       in a world where IPv4 addresses are no longer available, so hosts in

       the customer LANs with IPv4-only or IPv6-only applications or

       devices, requiring to communicate with IPv4-only services at the

       Internet, are still able to do so.

   =20

                                                                           =
          =20

   =20

   =20

    Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi=
ssion

    until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

   =20

    The IETF Secretariat

   =20

   =20




**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.consulintel.es
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
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ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.




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From: Jordi Palet =?UTF-8?B?TWFydMOtbmV6?= 
To: v6ops 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-01.txt
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-01.txt
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We just posted a new version of this document, following the inputs receive=
d.



https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis/?include_tex=
t=3D1



Thanks!





=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: 

Fecha: viernes, 20 de julio de 2018, 9:27

Para: Jordi Palet , Jordi Palet Martinez , Rosalea G Roberts , Rosalea Roberts 

Asunto: New Version Notification for draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-01.txt



   =20

    A new version of I-D, draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-01.txt

    has been successfully submitted by Jordi Palet Martinez and posted to t=
he

    IETF repository.

   =20

    Name:		draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis

    Revision:	01

    Title:		IPv6 Address Assignment to End-Sites

    Document date:	2018-07-20

    Group:		Individual Submission

    Pages:		11

    URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-palet-v6ops-=
rfc6177-bis-01.txt

    Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6=
177-bis/

    Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-b=
is-01

    Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-palet-v6ops=
-rfc6177-bis

    Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-palet-v6ops-r=
fc6177-bis-01

   =20

    Abstract:

       The Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) policies, have different

       views regarding the recommendation of the prefix to be assigned to

       end-sites.  However, all them allow up to a /48 without further

       justification and clearly state that the exact choice of how much

       address space should be assigned to end-sites is a decision of each

       operator.

   =20

       This document reviews the architectural and operational

       considerations of end-site assignments, and reiterates that

       assignment policy and guidelines belong to the RIR community.  This

       revision is being made to emphasize that IPv6 protocol evolution

       requires an ever-increasing availability of subnets at the end-site

       and so, policy should reflect that assignment of a single subnet is

       never appropriate.

   =20

       This document obsoletes RFC6177 (IPv6 Address Assignment to End

       Sites).

   =20

                                                                           =
          =20

   =20

   =20

    Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi=
ssion

    until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.

   =20

    The IETF Secretariat

   =20

   =20




**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.theipv6company.com
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
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idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t=
hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in=
formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi=
ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.




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Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:29:54 -0400
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: v6ops 
Message-ID: <1A2645A6-741B-4BBF-9496-8FA1B4FBA60D@consulintel.es>
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-01.txt
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We just posted a new version of this document, following the inputs receive=
d.



https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis/?include_tex=
t=3D1



Thanks!



Regards,

Jordi





=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----







De: 







Fecha: viernes, 20 de julio de 2018, 9:27







Para: Jordi Palet , Jordi Palet Martinez , Rosalea G Roberts , Rosalea Roberts 







Asunto: New Version Notification for draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-01.txt















   =20







    A new version of I-D, draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis-01.txt







    has been successfully submitted by Jordi Palet Martinez and posted to t=
he







    IETF repository.







   =20







    Name:		draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-bis







    Revision:	01







    Title:		IPv6 Address Assignment to End-Sites







    Document date:	2018-07-20







    Group:		Individual Submission







    Pages:		11







    URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-palet-v6ops-=
rfc6177-bis-01.txt







    Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6=
177-bis/







    Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-palet-v6ops-rfc6177-b=
is-01







    Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-palet-v6ops=
-rfc6177-bis







    Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-palet-v6ops-r=
fc6177-bis-01







   =20







    Abstract:







       The Regional Internet Registries (RIRs) policies, have different







       views regarding the recommendation of the prefix to be assigned to







       end-sites.  However, all them allow up to a /48 without further







       justification and clearly state that the exact choice of how much







       address space should be assigned to end-sites is a decision of each







       operator.







   =20







       This document reviews the architectural and operational







       considerations of end-site assignments, and reiterates that







       assignment policy and guidelines belong to the RIR community.  This







       revision is being made to emphasize that IPv6 protocol evolution







       requires an ever-increasing availability of subnets at the end-site







       and so, policy should reflect that assignment of a single subnet is







       never appropriate.







   =20







       This document obsoletes RFC6177 (IPv6 Address Assignment to End







       Sites).







   =20







                                                                           =
          =20







   =20







   =20







    Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of submi=
ssion







    until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.org.







   =20







    The IETF Secretariat







   =20







   =20










**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.consulintel.es
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, =
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p=
artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons=
idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t=
hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in=
formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi=
ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.




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From: 
To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , v6ops 
Thread-Topic: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05.txt
Thread-Index: AQHUICwEm30Vkds9WEeerNxTQG/VQKSYJWpw
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Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:12:04 -0400
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: v6ops 
Message-ID: <9B2C575D-B5F8-41A0-A587-BE4149340478@consulintel.es>
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05.txt
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05.txt
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Hi Med,



Our DHCPv6 individual draft was not progressing, however, this one seems to=
 be in a different situation and may be adopted soon as a WG item.



We can anyway, have some more time to decide, depending on the ID progress =
and also the opinion of the reviewers that yesterday volunteered to check o=
ur document and the timing to go for the last-call, etc.



The alternative is to remove this, publish our document as an RFC when pass=
es the last-call, then do a -bis version, but I feel a waste of time if bot=
h documents progress.



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: v6ops  en nombre de 

Fecha: viernes, 20 de julio de 2018, 10:08

Para: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ ,=
 v6ops 

Asunto: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-transitio=
n-ipv4aas-05.txt



    Hi Jordi,=20

   =20

    I disagree with including I-D.pref64folks-6man-ra-pref64 for the same r=
eason the WG decided to removed your dhcp individual draft.=20

   =20

    Please remove it from the draft. Thanks

   =20

    Cheers,

    Med

   =20

    > -----Message d'origine-----

    > De : v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] De la part de JORDI PALET =
MARTINEZ

    > Envoy=C3=A9 : vendredi 20 juillet 2018 09:17

    > =C3=80 : v6ops

    > Objet : Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-tra=
nsition-

    > ipv4aas-05.txt

    >=20

    > Hi all,

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > Following yesterday discussion, I've posted a new version, removing G=
-1

    > (RFC7608).

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > Also, considering draft-pref64folks-6man-ra-pref64, we have included =
this

    > (after consulting with the chairs, as it is a time being an individua=
l ID).

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > We have also included a very simple priority mechanism in case severa=
l NAT64

    > prefix discovery are available.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > As we have free time today in the meeting, if somebody disagree with =
this,

    > please speak up and let's discuss it.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > Thanks!

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > Here is the relevant text:

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >    464XLAT-4:  The IPv6 Transition CE Router MUST implement

    >=20

    >                [I-D.pref64folks-6man-ra-pref64] (Discovering PREF64 i=
n

    >=20

    >                Router Advertisements) and [RFC7050] (Discovery of the

    >=20

    >                IPv6 Prefix Used for IPv6 Address Synthesis) in order =
to

    >=20

    >                discover the PLAT-side translation IPv4 and IPv6

    >=20

    >                prefix(es)/suffix(es).

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >    464XLAT-7:  The priority for the NAT64 prefix, in case the network

    >=20

    >                provides several choices, MUST be: 1) [RFC7225], 2)

    >=20

    >                [RFC8115], 3) [I-D.pref64folks-6man-ra-pref64] and 4)

    >=20

    >                [RFC7050].

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > Regards,

    >=20

    > Jordi

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > =EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

    >=20

    > De: 

    >=20

    > Fecha: viernes, 20 de julio de 2018, 9:12

    >=20

    > Para: Masanobu Kawashima , "Hans M.-H. Liu"

    > , Jordi Palet Martinez

    > , Jordi Palet

    > , Hans Liu 

    >=20

    > Asunto: New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4=
aas-

    > 05.txt

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >     A new version of I-D, draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05.txt

    >=20

    >     has been successfully submitted by Jordi Palet Martinez and poste=
d to the

    >=20

    >     IETF repository.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >     Name:		draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas

    >=20

    >     Revision:	05

    >=20

    >     Title:		Requirements for IPv6 Customer Edge Routers to Support

    > IPv4 Connectivity as-a-Service

    >=20

    >     Document date:	2018-07-20

    >=20

    >     Group:		v6ops

    >=20

    >     Pages:		21

    >=20

    >     URL:            https://www.ietf.org/internet-drafts/draft-ietf-v=
6ops-

    > transition-ipv4aas-05.txt

    >=20

    >     Status:         https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops=
-

    > transition-ipv4aas/

    >=20

    >     Htmlized:       https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-v6ops-tran=
sition-

    > ipv4aas-05

    >=20

    >     Htmlized:       https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-ietf-=
v6ops-

    > transition-ipv4aas

    >=20

    >     Diff:           https://www.ietf.org/rfcdiff?url2=3Ddraft-ietf-v6=
ops-

    > transition-ipv4aas-05

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >     Abstract:

    >=20

    >        This document specifies the IPv4 service continuity requiremen=
ts for

    >=20

    >        an IPv6 Customer Edge (CE) router, either provided by the serv=
ice

    >=20

    >        provider or thru the retail market.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >        Specifically, this document extends the "Basic Requirements fo=
r IPv6

    >=20

    >        Customer Edge Routers" in order to allow the provisioning of I=
Pv6

    >=20

    >        transition services for the support of "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IP=
v4aaS)

    >=20

    >        by means of new transition mechanisms.  The document only cove=
rs

    >=20

    >        transition technologies for delivering IPv4 in IPv6-only acces=
s

    >=20

    >        networks, commonly called "IPv4 as-a-Service" (IPv4aaS), as re=
quired

    >=20

    >        in a world where IPv4 addresses are no longer available, so ho=
sts in

    >=20

    >        the customer LANs with IPv4-only or IPv6-only applications or

    >=20

    >        devices, requiring to communicate with IPv4-only services at t=
he

    >=20

    >        Internet, are still able to do so.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >     Please note that it may take a couple of minutes from the time of

    > submission

    >=20

    >     until the htmlized version and diff are available at tools.ietf.o=
rg.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >     The IETF Secretariat

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > **********************************************

    > IPv4 is over

    > Are you ready for the new Internet ?

    > http://www.consulintel.es

    > The IPv6 Company

    >=20

    > This electronic message contains information which may be privileged =
or

    > confidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use=
 of the

    > individual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized discl=
osure,

    > copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, eve=
n if

    > partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will =
be

    > considered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient =
be aware

    > that any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of =
this

    > information, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly

    > prohibited, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply =
to the

    > original sender to inform about this communication and delete it.

    >=20

    >=20

    >=20

    > _______________________________________________

    > v6ops mailing list

    > v6ops@ietf.org

    > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

    _______________________________________________

    v6ops mailing list

    v6ops@ietf.org

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

   =20




**********************************************
IPv4 is over
Are you ready for the new Internet ?
http://www.consulintel.es
The IPv6 Company

This electronic message contains information which may be privileged or con=
fidential. The information is intended to be for the exclusive use of the i=
ndividual(s) named above and further non-explicilty authorized disclosure, =
copying, distribution or use of the contents of this information, even if p=
artially, including attached files, is strictly prohibited and will be cons=
idered a criminal offense. If you are not the intended recipient be aware t=
hat any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents of this in=
formation, even if partially, including attached files, is strictly prohibi=
ted, will be considered a criminal offense, so you must reply to the origin=
al sender to inform about this communication and delete it.




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Thread-Topic: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05.txt
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] New Version Notification for draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05.txt
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X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:21:10 -0000

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From: Jen Linkova 
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 01:26:07 +1000
Message-ID: 
To: V6 Ops List , Mohamed Boucadair 
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Archived-At: 
Subject: [v6ops] draft-pref64folks-6man-ra-pref64-01 uploaded
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Hello,

As it's been mentioned at the mic, the -01 version of
draft-pref64folks-6man-ra-pref64

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pref64folks-6man-ra-pref64

Feedback is appreciated.

In particular, Mohamed, may I ask you to review the new text and let
us know if it addresses your concerns? Thanks!

-- 
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry


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From: 
To: Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05
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Fred, Jordi, all,

As requested yesterday during the v6ops session, please find below a review=
 to the latest version of the document fwiw:


*         pdf : https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/maste=
r/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05-rev%20Med.pdf

*         doc : https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master=
/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05-rev%20Med.doc

Cheers,
Med

--_000_787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF66859OPEXCLILMA3corp_
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Fred, Jordi, all,



 


As requested yesterday during the v6ops ses=
sion, please find below a review to the latest version of the document =
;fwiw:



 


·     &=
nbsp;  
pdf :

https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/master/draft-ietf-v6o=
ps-transition-ipv4aas-05-rev%20Med.pdf



·        
doc :

https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-ietf-v6op=
s-transition-ipv4aas-05-rev%20Med.doc



 


Cheers,


Med






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Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:27:38 -0400
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: "v6ops@ietf.org" 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05
Mime-version: 1.0
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05
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> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

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Hi Med,

=20

Thanks a lot.

=20

I=E2=80=99m already taking a look into your inputs however, I will wait for=
 the other reviews in order to integrate all the inputs.


Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20

=20

De: v6ops  en nombre de 
Fecha: viernes, 20 de julio de 2018, 13:03
Para: Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org" 
Asunto: [v6ops] Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05

=20

Fred, Jordi, all,=20

=20

As requested yesterday during the v6ops session, please find below a review=
 to the latest version of the document fwiw:=20

=20

=C2=B7         pdf : https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blob/=
master/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05-rev%20Med.pdf=20

=C2=B7         doc : https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/m=
aster/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05-rev%20Med.doc=20

=20

Cheers,

Med

_______________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ie=
tf.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops=20



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Hi Med,
 
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal>Thanks a lot.
<=
p class=3DMsoNormal> 
I=E2=80=99m already taking a look into your=
 inputs however, I will wait for the other reviews in order to integrate al=
l the inputs.
Regards,
Jordi
 
 
=
 
De: =
v6ops <v6ops-bounces@ietf.o=
rg> en nombre de <mohamed.boucadair@orange.com>
Fecha: v=
iernes, 20 de julio de 2018, 13:03
Para: Fred Baker <fredbaker=
.ietf@gmail.com>, "v6ops@ietf.org" <v6ops@ietf.org>
<=
b>Asunto: [v6ops] Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05
 
Fred, Jordi, all, 
 
As requested yesterday during the v6ops session, pleas=
e find below a review to the latest version of the document fwiw: 
 
=C2=B7       =
;  pdf : https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blo=
b/master/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05-rev%20Med.pdf 
=C2=B7        =
; doc : https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw/master/draft-ietf-v=
6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05-rev%20Med.doc 
 
Cheers,
Med
__=
_____________________________________________ v6ops mailing list v6ops@ietf=
.org https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops 

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From: Richard Patterson 
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 13:50:55 -0400
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Cc: Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
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Hi Med,

Let me address your comments around the UPnP section, as it uses
wording that I suggested.

> UPnP SHOULD be disabled by DEFAULT on the IPv6 Transition CE Router when =
using an IPv4aaS transition mechanism.

Your comment:
"What is the rationale for this one? In order to allow for service
continuity, I would maintain any default behavior is used for IPv4.
Given that we don=E2=80=99t have one for IPv4, I tend to suggest to delete
this and be silent."

The rationale is that without additionally functionality such as your
UPnP-PCP IWF, or another mechanism to detect IPv4aaS, a UPnP
AddPortMapping() request will always succeed even when configured with
an IPv4aaS using IPv4 overloading.   The end application sees this
AddPortMapping() success and incorrectly assumes it can now use that
port for inbound connectivity.  This will be more detrimental to
end-to-end connectivity, than if the UPnP agent was disabled, or
rejected the mapping request.


> the UPnP agent MUST reject any port mapping requests for port numbers out=
side of the port set allocated to the IPv6 Transition CE Router

Your comment:
"This is contradictory to how IGD:2 would work if supported. Instead
of rejecting the request, a port within the port set will be
returned."

This is only true if the application request used AddAnyPortMapping()
instead of AddPortMapping().  We do reference this new function
specifically in a paragraph further down however I do agree with you
that this paragraph is ambiguous.
Perhaps this paragraph should be altered to reference the
AddPortMapping() function specifically:

"If UPnP is enabled on an IPv6 Transition CE Router, the UPnP agent
MUST reject any AddPortMapping() requests for port numbers outside of
the port set allocated to the IPv6 Transition CE Router."

and also be moved below the paragraph that references the alternative
AddAnyPortMapping().  Do you think that covers it?

-Rich

On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 13:03,  wrote:
>
> Fred, Jordi, all,
>
>
>
> As requested yesterday during the v6ops session, please find below a revi=
ew to the latest version of the document fwiw:
>
>
>
> =C2=B7         pdf : https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blo=
b/master/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05-rev%20Med.pdf
>
> =C2=B7         doc : https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw=
/master/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05-rev%20Med.doc
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Med
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: 
To: Richard Patterson 
CC: Fred Baker , "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05
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From: "STARK, BARBARA H" 
To: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05
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From: "STARK, BARBARA H" 
To: "'mohamed.boucadair@orange.com'" , "Richard Patterson" 
CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05
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From: Richard Patterson 
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:37:56 -0400
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On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 17:19, STARK, BARBARA H  wrote:
> Thinking more about it, I think Med is quite right on this point. I seem =
to recall that DS-Lite specifically wants UPnP IGD to be running to the LAN=
 if it is doing PCP to the WAN. Since DS-Lite is one of the IPv4aas technol=
ogies mentioned, I think the blanket recommendation to disable UPnP IGD is =
a bad idea.
> Barbara

Yes you're quite right, the wording is a bit misleading.  It's not
intended to shadow the other requirements of the document, for example
the DSLITE-2 requirement referencing the use of RFC6970.  We need to
make sure the wording is such that it recommends disabling UPnP for
port forwarding *unless* there's support for 6970, filtering of
assigned port sets, or another mechanism to allow specific validation.

-Richard


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From: Fred Baker 
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Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:44:34 -0600
Cc: mohamed.boucadair@orange.com, "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
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References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF66859@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> 
To: Richard Patterson 
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05
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Thanks much

Sent using a machine that autocorrects in interesting ways...

> On Jul 20, 2018, at 11:50 AM, Richard Patterson  wro=
te:
>=20
> Hi Med,
>=20
> Let me address your comments around the UPnP section, as it uses
> wording that I suggested.
>=20
>> UPnP SHOULD be disabled by DEFAULT on the IPv6 Transition CE Router when u=
sing an IPv4aaS transition mechanism.
>=20
> Your comment:
> "What is the rationale for this one? In order to allow for service
> continuity, I would maintain any default behavior is used for IPv4.
> Given that we don=E2=80=99t have one for IPv4, I tend to suggest to delete=

> this and be silent."
>=20
> The rationale is that without additionally functionality such as your
> UPnP-PCP IWF, or another mechanism to detect IPv4aaS, a UPnP
> AddPortMapping() request will always succeed even when configured with
> an IPv4aaS using IPv4 overloading.   The end application sees this
> AddPortMapping() success and incorrectly assumes it can now use that
> port for inbound connectivity.  This will be more detrimental to
> end-to-end connectivity, than if the UPnP agent was disabled, or
> rejected the mapping request.
>=20
>=20
>> the UPnP agent MUST reject any port mapping requests for port numbers out=
side of the port set allocated to the IPv6 Transition CE Router
>=20
> Your comment:
> "This is contradictory to how IGD:2 would work if supported. Instead
> of rejecting the request, a port within the port set will be
> returned."
>=20
> This is only true if the application request used AddAnyPortMapping()
> instead of AddPortMapping().  We do reference this new function
> specifically in a paragraph further down however I do agree with you
> that this paragraph is ambiguous.
> Perhaps this paragraph should be altered to reference the
> AddPortMapping() function specifically:
>=20
> "If UPnP is enabled on an IPv6 Transition CE Router, the UPnP agent
> MUST reject any AddPortMapping() requests for port numbers outside of
> the port set allocated to the IPv6 Transition CE Router."
>=20
> and also be moved below the paragraph that references the alternative
> AddAnyPortMapping().  Do you think that covers it?
>=20
> -Rich
>=20
>> On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 13:03,  wrote:
>>=20
>> Fred, Jordi, all,
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> As requested yesterday during the v6ops session, please find below a revi=
ew to the latest version of the document fwiw:
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> =C2=B7         pdf : https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/blo=
b/master/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05-rev%20Med.pdf
>>=20
>> =C2=B7         doc : https://github.com/boucadair/IETF-Drafts-Reviews/raw=
/master/draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05-rev%20Med.doc
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>> Cheers,
>>=20
>> Med
>>=20
>> _______________________________________________
>> v6ops mailing list
>> v6ops@ietf.org
>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


From nobody Fri Jul 20 21:36:36 2018
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From: Fred Baker 
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Cc: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ , v6ops 
To: Mohamed Boucadair 
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> On Jul 20, 2018, at 10:21 AM, mohamed.boucadair@orange.com wrote:
>=20
> The RA proposal is a d=C3=A9j=C3=A0 vu. It was discussed in behave WG =
and the IETF consensus as documented in 7051 is to not recommend it.

I suspect the consensus has changed. The DNS model is seriously flawed: =
consider, for example, the case in which an ISP configures the AAAA =
record for ipv4only.arpa with a prefix other than the default one, a =
Public Resolver such as OpenDNS configures the default prefix or some =
third prefix, and a subscriber configures the use of the Public =
Resolver. The CLAT will request the translation prefix and get none or =
the wrong one, disabling CLAT service. We need a solution that is =
reliable and definitively gets the right Pref64 to the CLAT.

Using the RA does so, and a DHCP option would do so. DNS does not. If =
the IETF consensus is to use the DNS model, the community represented in =
dnsop isn't part of that consensus, and the operators in v6ops (as =
represented in the f2f discussion yesterday) are not. At minimum, that =
consensus needs to be revisited.

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From: Richard Patterson 
Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 17:52:24 -0400
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05
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On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 17:19, STARK, BARBARA H  wrote:
> Thinking more about it, I think Med is quite right on this point. I seem =
to recall that DS-Lite specifically wants UPnP IGD to be running to the LAN=
 if it is doing PCP to the WAN. Since DS-Lite is one of the IPv4aas technol=
ogies mentioned, I think the blanket recommendation to disable UPnP IGD is =
a bad idea.
> Barbara


Hi Barbara, Med,

I think we're all aligned on how we want things to behave, so it's
just a matter on getting the wording correct.
I've drafted up this alternative, more specific Section 5 for UPnP
which hopefully more accurately defines the behaviour that we want. If
you could please review it and see what you think?



5. UPnP Support

 By default, an IPv6 Transition CE Router running a UPnP agent, SHOULD
reject UPnP port mapping requests for a WANIPConnection that is
configured with an IPv4aaS transition mechanism.

 UPnP port mapping requests MAY succeed when an IPv6 Transition CE
Router is configured to use a stateless mechanism that allows
unsolicited inbound packets through to the CE, such as MAP or lw4o6,
or when configured with a port set containing all 65535 ports, e.g.,
with an IPv4 address sharing ratio of 1.

 An IPv6 Transition CE Router configured for an IPv4aaS mechanism that
supports PCP [RFC6887],  such as DS-Lite, SHOULD support IGD-PCP IWF
[RFC6970]. UPnP port mapping requests MAY then succeed as outlined in
[RFC6970].

 An IPv6 Transition CE Router that implements a UPnP agent, SHOULD
support the Open Connectivity Foundation's IGD:2 specification,
especially the AddAnyPortMapping() function.

 If the IPv6 Transition CE Router is configured for an IPv4aaS
mechanism that assigns port sets, the UPnP agent MUST reject any
AddPortMapping() requests for port numbers outside of the port set
allocated to the IPv6 Transition CE Router.
 If the IPv6 Transition CE Router receives an AddAnyPortMapping()
request for a port outside of the port set allocated to the the IPv6
Transition CE Router, the request SHOULD succeed, offering an
alternative port from within the port set.


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Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 12:49:48 +0200
From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: Richard Patterson , 
CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
Message-ID: 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05
References: <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF66859@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup>  <787AE7BB302AE849A7480A190F8B93302DF66983@OPEXCLILMA3.corporate.adroot.infra.ftgroup> <2D09D61DDFA73D4C884805CC7865E6114DE43A3D@GAALPA1MSGUSRBF.ITServices.sbc.com> 
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Hi Richard, all,



Thanks for the detailed text. I fully agree with this version.



If everyone is happy which Richard proposal, I will update that text in a f=
ew days in the document, together with other inputs from the reviewers that=
 volunteered during the meeting.



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: v6ops  en nombre de Richard Patterson 

Fecha: s=C3=A1bado, 21 de julio de 2018, 23:53

Para: 

CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 

Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05



    On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 17:19, STARK, BARBARA H  wrote:

    > Thinking more about it, I think Med is quite right on this point. I s=
eem to recall that DS-Lite specifically wants UPnP IGD to be running to the=
 LAN if it is doing PCP to the WAN. Since DS-Lite is one of the IPv4aas tec=
hnologies mentioned, I think the blanket recommendation to disable UPnP IGD=
 is a bad idea.

    > Barbara

   =20

   =20

    Hi Barbara, Med,

   =20

    I think we're all aligned on how we want things to behave, so it's

    just a matter on getting the wording correct.

    I've drafted up this alternative, more specific Section 5 for UPnP

    which hopefully more accurately defines the behaviour that we want. If

    you could please review it and see what you think?

   =20

   =20

   =20

    5. UPnP Support

   =20

     By default, an IPv6 Transition CE Router running a UPnP agent, SHOULD

    reject UPnP port mapping requests for a WANIPConnection that is

    configured with an IPv4aaS transition mechanism.

   =20

     UPnP port mapping requests MAY succeed when an IPv6 Transition CE

    Router is configured to use a stateless mechanism that allows

    unsolicited inbound packets through to the CE, such as MAP or lw4o6,

    or when configured with a port set containing all 65535 ports, e.g.,

    with an IPv4 address sharing ratio of 1.

   =20

     An IPv6 Transition CE Router configured for an IPv4aaS mechanism that

    supports PCP [RFC6887],  such as DS-Lite, SHOULD support IGD-PCP IWF

    [RFC6970]. UPnP port mapping requests MAY then succeed as outlined in

    [RFC6970].

   =20

     An IPv6 Transition CE Router that implements a UPnP agent, SHOULD

    support the Open Connectivity Foundation's IGD:2 specification,

    especially the AddAnyPortMapping() function.

   =20

     If the IPv6 Transition CE Router is configured for an IPv4aaS

    mechanism that assigns port sets, the UPnP agent MUST reject any

    AddPortMapping() requests for port numbers outside of the port set

    allocated to the IPv6 Transition CE Router.

     If the IPv6 Transition CE Router receives an AddAnyPortMapping()

    request for a port outside of the port set allocated to the the IPv6

    Transition CE Router, the request SHOULD succeed, offering an

    alternative port from within the port set.

   =20

    _______________________________________________

    v6ops mailing list

    v6ops@ietf.org

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

   =20




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From: "STARK, BARBARA H" 
To: "'Richard Patterson'" 
CC: "mohamed.boucadair@orange.com" , "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05
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From: Richard Patterson 
Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 11:07:29 +0100
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Review of draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas-05
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Hi Barbara,

On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 at 18:09, STARK, BARBARA H  wrote:
>
> I think the proposed text is confusing and self-contradictory, needs to b=
e more precise in language used around UPnP capabilities, and isn't the cor=
rect recommendation. Inline indication of where I see these problems, and p=
roposed text at the bottom.

Fair enough, I won't then try to justify any of my proposed text, but
rather focus on your recommended text instead.
I will say that the conflict/confusion was probably because it was
intended to be read linearly as: "By default reject, unless......."


> Here is what I would recommend:
>
> If the [UPnP WANIPConnection:2] service is enabled on a CE router, but ca=
nnot be associated with an IPv4 interface established by an IPv4aas mechani=
sm or cannot interwork with PCP or a configured port set, an AddPortMapping=
() or AddAnyPortMapping() action MUST be rejected with error code 729 "Conf=
lictWithOtherMechanisms". Note that IGD:1 and its WANIPConnection:1 service=
 have been deprecated by OCF.
>
> I think that's all that needs to be said. Any properly interworked WANIPC=
onnection:2 service can be expected to behave properly according to UPnP sp=
ecs.
> Then add informative reference to [UPnP WANIPConnection:2] that points to=
 http://upnp.org/specs/gw/UPnP-gw-WANIPConnection-v2-Service.pdf.


"interwork with [...]  a configured port set" is too vague for my
liking.  It's not clear that this means it should reject
AddPortMapping() requests for a port outside of the port set, or
provide an alternative port when requested with AddAnyPortMapping().
I'd like to see this elaborated a bit more on.

Whilst IGD:1 is deprecated, it is what's out there so we need to make
sure to capture the AddPortMapping() behaviour correctly.  Even when
newer CPEs start supporting IGD:2 (most are still dragging their heals
IME), it requires applications to also alter their behaviour to make
use of the new AddAnyPortMapping() function.

I do agree that the more concise wording is better, and that sections
of the previously suggested wording were superfluous when read in
context with the rest of the document.  Apologies for that.

-Richard


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Subject: [v6ops] =?utf-8?q?Mirja_K=C3=BChlewind=27s_No_Objection_on_draft?= =?utf-8?q?-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-05=3A_=28with_COMMENT=29?=
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Mirja Kühlewind has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-05: No Objection

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email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
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Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks for the well-written document. Please find some comments below:

1) The shepherd write-up says "The responsible Area Director is Ron Bonica."
and questions 7 and 8 say "TBD" and the RFC8174 biolerplate is missing...

2) It seems that ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming should maybe be a
normative reference (and that the abstract should be updated with the
respective RFC number as soon as ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-multihoming is
published). Any even if it is not a normative reference, should those docs be
published together in order to refer to the RFC in the abstract (instead of an
draft)?

3) Would it makes sense to also discuss what to do when one ISP is down but
packets from that address space are received at the border router? Should those
packet be forwarded to that ISP anyway or dropped? Or should they be forwarded
to the other ISP with or without address translation?

4) It doesn’t seem right to me that the security consideration section is empty.

5) Lines are too long and therefore cropped in sec 3.2.1 and 3.2.2.



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From: Ron Bonica 
To: "v6ops@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
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Archived-At: 
Subject: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
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Folks,

This draft initiates a two week call for adoption on draft-templin-v6ops-pd=
host. Please respond by August 9, 2018.

                                                                     Ron


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From: Lorenzo Colitti 
Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 17:46:06 +0900
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To: Ron Bonica 
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
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--0000000000003815f00571f725ee
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I have read the draft and support adoption. The document is a general
discussion of how hosts can benefit from multiple addresses that is
agnostic to the way the prefix is delivered, and it fits well with the
spirit of RFC 7934.

I note that Section 8 seems to specify host behaviour, which is typically
not in scope for v6ops. To my mind that doesn't preclude adoption since it
can be reworded in a way that doesn't specify host behaviour but only
specifies the consequences of potential changes to host behaviour that
specified by other working groups such as 6man.

Section 10 should mention the de-facto prefix delegation mechanism used by
all 3GPP networks, in which the fact that the prefix is delegated to the
host is not explicit in the protocol signalling but unambiguously defined
by link-specific standards (i.e., 3GPP standards), which guarantees that
the prefix uniquely belongs to the host. I think there would be a benefit
if host behaviour could change based on such knowledge of the link
characteristics, and this document would be a good place to say so. RFC
7278 is an implicit case in which we are already taking advantage of those
characteristics.

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:25 AM Ron Bonica  wrote:

> Folks,
>
> This draft initiates a two week call for adoption on
> draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost. Please respond by August 9, 2018.
>
>                                                                      Ron
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>

--0000000000003815f00571f725ee
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Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


I have read the draft and support adoption. The docum=
ent is a general discussion of how hosts can benefit from multiple addresse=
s that is agnostic to=C2=A0the way the prefix is delivered, and it fits wel=
l with the spirit of RFC 7934.

I note that Section=
 8 seems to specify host behaviour, which is typically not in scope for v6o=
ps. To my mind that doesn't preclude adoption since it can be reworded =
in a way that doesn't specify host behaviour but only specifies the con=
sequences of potential changes to host behaviour that specified by other wo=
rking groups such as 6man.

Section 10 should menti=
on the de-facto prefix delegation mechanism used by all 3GPP networks, in w=
hich the fact that the prefix is delegated to the host is not explicit in t=
he protocol signalling but unambiguously defined by link-specific standards=
 (i.e., 3GPP standards), which guarantees that the prefix uniquely belongs =
to the host. I think there would be a benefit if host behaviour could chang=
e based on such knowledge of the link characteristics, and this document wo=
uld be a good place to say so. RFC 7278 is an implicit case in which we are=
 already taking advantage of those characteristics.

On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:25 AM Ron Bon=
ica <rbonica@ju=
niper.net> wrote:
Folks,


This draft initiates a two week call for adoption on draft-templin-v6ops-pd=
host. Please respond by August 9, 2018.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =
=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ron



_______________________________________________

v6ops mailing list

v6ops@ietf.org

https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops




--0000000000003815f00571f725ee--


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Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-pref64folks-6man-ra-pref64-01 uploaded
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This is valuable, thank you.
Where is it best to capture "Implementation considerations"; something like=
 section 6 of https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc8106

IMHO it would be beneficial to capture these aspects:
-Pref64 "Repository management"
-Handling multiple pref64 from different sources
-Handling RA updates on multiple interfaces

There are security implications of having multiple pref64 sources, would th=
at be in this paper?
Multihoming needs some consideration. Regarding the CLAT or other user func=
tion of the pref64, will the function be of global scope or would multiple =
functions be in play e.g. per interface.
Thanks, Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Jen Linkova
Sent: 20 July 2018 16:26
To: V6 Ops List ; Mohamed Boucadair 
Subject: [v6ops] draft-pref64folks-6man-ra-pref64-01 uploaded

Hello,

As it's been mentioned at the mic, the -01 version of
draft-pref64folks-6man-ra-pref64

https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-pref64folks-6man-ra-pref64

Feedback is appreciated.

In particular, Mohamed, may I ask you to review the new text and let us kno=
w if it addresses your concerns? Thanks!

--
SY, Jen Linkova aka Furry

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: Fred Baker 
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Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 12:47:18 -0700
In-Reply-To: 
Cc: Ron Bonica , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
To: Lorenzo Colitti 
References:  
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
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> On Jul 27, 2018, at 1:46 AM, Lorenzo Colitti =
 wrote:
>=20
> I have read the draft and support adoption. The document is a general =
discussion of how hosts can benefit from multiple addresses that is =
agnostic to the way the prefix is delivered, and it fits well with the =
spirit of RFC 7934.
>=20
> I note that Section 8 seems to specify host behaviour, which is =
typically not in scope for v6ops. To my mind that doesn't preclude =
adoption since it can be reworded in a way that doesn't specify host =
behaviour but only specifies the consequences of potential changes to =
host behaviour that specified by other working groups such as 6man.
>=20
> Section 10 should mention the de-facto prefix delegation mechanism =
used by all 3GPP networks, in which the fact that the prefix is =
delegated to the host is not explicit in the protocol signalling but =
unambiguously defined by link-specific standards (i.e., 3GPP standards), =
which guarantees that the prefix uniquely belongs to the host. I think =
there would be a benefit if host behaviour could change based on such =
knowledge of the link characteristics, and this document would be a good =
place to say so. RFC 7278 is an implicit case in which we are already =
taking advantage of those characteristics.

It would be good to have a reference, for the bibliography. What is the =
reference identifier etc?

> On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:25 AM Ron Bonica  =
wrote:
> Folks,
>=20
> This draft initiates a two week call for adoption on =
draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost. Please respond by August 9, 2018.
>=20
>                                                                      =
Ron
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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To: Ron Bonica , "v6ops@ietf.org" 
References: 
From: Brian E Carpenter 
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Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:25:27 +1200
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Support.

N.B. I think that probably the reference to draft-sun-casm-address-pool-management-yang should be replaced by draft-li-opsawg-address-pool-management-arch, which is more current although it doesn't include a YANG model.

Regards
   Brian

On 27/07/2018 05:25, Ron Bonica wrote:
> Folks,
> 
> This draft initiates a two week call for adoption on draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost. Please respond by August 9, 2018.
> 
>                                                                      Ron
> 
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> 


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From: Spencer Dawkins 
To: "The IESG" 
Cc: draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras@ietf.org, Russ White , v6ops-chairs@ietf.org, russ@riw.us, v6ops@ietf.org
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Subject: [v6ops] Spencer Dawkins' Yes on draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-05: (with COMMENT)
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Spencer Dawkins has entered the following ballot position for
draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras-05: Yes

When responding, please keep the subject line intact and reply to all
email addresses included in the To and CC lines. (Feel free to cut this
introductory paragraph, however.)


Please refer to https://www.ietf.org/iesg/statement/discuss-criteria.html
for more information about IESG DISCUSS and COMMENT positions.


The document, along with other ballot positions, can be found here:
https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-v6ops-conditional-ras/



----------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMENT:
----------------------------------------------------------------------

I echo Mirja's thanks for a well-written document (and her curiosity about the
near-null Security Considerations - there's at least one recommendation in this
document, so it seems possible that some security consideration is worth
mentioning). But I think I understand this topic, and now I think I understand
it much better. Thanks for that.

I do have some minor comments, but they are non-blocking, so do the right thing.

This text toward the bottom of the abstract

   this document
   adopts the approach proposed in the "ietf-rtgwg-enterprise-pa-
   multihoming" draft to provide a solution for a limited number of
   common use cases.

is pretty easy to miss. If the reader misses it, the first sentence is kind of
misleading - it just says

   This document discusses the most common scenarios of connecting an
   enterprise network to multiple ISPs using an address space assigned
   by an ISP.

Perhaps it's worth pointing that out in the first sentence, rather than towards
the end of the abstract?

I've been on the IESG far too long, but I have tried repeatedly to read

   While some work is being done in the Source Address Dependent Routing
   (SADR) area (such as [I-D.ietf-rtgwg-dst-src-routing]),

without thinking "but SADR isn't an (IETF) area?!?", and I can't do it. If

   While some work is being done on Source Address Dependent Routing
   (SADR) (such as [I-D.ietf-rtgwg-dst-src-routing]),

that would stop startling at least one reader ...

In 3.2.5.  Topologies with Dedicated Border Routers

   For simplicity, all topologies above show the ISP uplinks terminated
   on the first-hop routers.  Obviously, the proposed approach can be
   used in more complex topologies when dedicated devices are used for
   terminating ISP uplinks.  In that case VRRP mastership or interface
   status can not be used as a trigger for conditional RAs and route
   presence as described above should be used instead.

"as described above" might be easier to navigate if it was "as described above
in Section 3.1.2" - it's a six-page jump, if I'm tracking this cross reference
correctly, and if I'm not, an explicit section reference would be even more
appreciated.

I'm not sure that

  It should be noted that the proposed approach is not a silver bullet
   for all possible multihoming scenarios.

"silver bullet" is clear for readers from cultural contexts that don't include
werewolves or vampires ... but do the right thing, of course.

It's a nit, but "such as latencyetc".

It's a nit, but "correspodning".



From nobody Mon Jul 30 06:12:59 2018
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Archived-At: 
Subject: [v6ops] Weekly Review: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas
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Folks,

Each week between now and IETF 103, we will review and discuss one draft wi=
th an eye towards progressing it.

This week, please review and comment on draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas=
.

                                                Fred and Ron


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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" 
To: Lorenzo Colitti , Ron Bonica 
CC: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" 
To: Fred Baker , Lorenzo Colitti 
CC: "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
Thread-Index: AQHUJeKxht9nkw9nEkWAXlreWQvTC6Sn6LmQ
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 15:31:46 +0000
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
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Hi Fred,

I think the references for Lorenzo's comment would be RFC7066 and/or RFC727=
8.
Lorenzo - do I have that right?

Thanks - Fred

> -----Original Message-----
> From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 12:47 PM
> To: Lorenzo Colitti 
> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org WG 
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > On Jul 27, 2018, at 1:46 AM, Lorenzo Colitti  wrote:
> >
> > I have read the draft and support adoption. The document is a general d=
iscussion of how hosts can benefit from multiple addresses
> that is agnostic to the way the prefix is delivered, and it fits well wit=
h the spirit of RFC 7934.
> >
> > I note that Section 8 seems to specify host behaviour, which is typical=
ly not in scope for v6ops. To my mind that doesn't preclude
> adoption since it can be reworded in a way that doesn't specify host beha=
viour but only specifies the consequences of potential
> changes to host behaviour that specified by other working groups such as =
6man.
> >
> > Section 10 should mention the de-facto prefix delegation mechanism used=
 by all 3GPP networks, in which the fact that the prefix is
> delegated to the host is not explicit in the protocol signalling but unam=
biguously defined by link-specific standards (i.e., 3GPP
> standards), which guarantees that the prefix uniquely belongs to the host=
. I think there would be a benefit if host behaviour could
> change based on such knowledge of the link characteristics, and this docu=
ment would be a good place to say so. RFC 7278 is an implicit
> case in which we are already taking advantage of those characteristics.
>=20
> It would be good to have a reference, for the bibliography. What is the r=
eference identifier etc?
>=20
> > On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:25 AM Ron Bonica  wrote:
> > Folks,
> >
> > This draft initiates a two week call for adoption on draft-templin-v6op=
s-pdhost. Please respond by August 9, 2018.
> >
> >                                                                      Ro=
n
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" 
To: Brian E Carpenter , Ron Bonica , "v6ops@ietf.org" 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
Thread-Index: AQHUJef/ht9nkw9nEkWAXlreWQvTC6Sn6SOw
Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 15:32:28 +0000
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Thanks Brian - this will be addressed in the next version.

Fred

> -----Original Message-----
> From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Brian E Carpente=
r
> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 1:25 PM
> To: Ron Bonica ; v6ops@ietf.org
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
>=20
> Support.
>=20
> N.B. I think that probably the reference to draft-sun-casm-address-pool-m=
anagement-yang should be replaced by draft-li-opsawg-
> address-pool-management-arch, which is more current although it doesn't i=
nclude a YANG model.
>=20
> Regards
>    Brian
>=20
> On 27/07/2018 05:25, Ron Bonica wrote:
> > Folks,
> >
> > This draft initiates a two week call for adoption on draft-templin-v6op=
s-pdhost. Please respond by August 9, 2018.
> >
> >                                                                      Ro=
n
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > v6ops mailing list
> > v6ops@ietf.org
> > https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> >
>=20
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: Fred Baker 
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Cc: Lorenzo Colitti , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
To: Fred Templin 
References:   <2BC8E989-661C-4CA6-B3A8-134E4DCA0A32@gmail.com> <4984906d1502434fabb2e34414cd54c5@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com>
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> On Jul 30, 2018, at 8:31 AM, Templin (US), Fred L =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi Fred,
>=20
> I think the references for Lorenzo's comment would be RFC7066 and/or =
RFC7278.
> Lorenzo - do I have that right?

He was mentioning 3GPP specifications, if I understood him correctly.

> Thanks - Fred
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
>> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 12:47 PM
>> To: Lorenzo Colitti 
>> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org WG 
>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Jul 27, 2018, at 1:46 AM, Lorenzo Colitti =
 wrote:
>>>=20
>>> I have read the draft and support adoption. The document is a =
general discussion of how hosts can benefit from multiple addresses
>> that is agnostic to the way the prefix is delivered, and it fits well =
with the spirit of RFC 7934.
>>>=20
>>> I note that Section 8 seems to specify host behaviour, which is =
typically not in scope for v6ops. To my mind that doesn't preclude
>> adoption since it can be reworded in a way that doesn't specify host =
behaviour but only specifies the consequences of potential
>> changes to host behaviour that specified by other working groups such =
as 6man.
>>>=20
>>> Section 10 should mention the de-facto prefix delegation mechanism =
used by all 3GPP networks, in which the fact that the prefix is
>> delegated to the host is not explicit in the protocol signalling but =
unambiguously defined by link-specific standards (i.e., 3GPP
>> standards), which guarantees that the prefix uniquely belongs to the =
host. I think there would be a benefit if host behaviour could
>> change based on such knowledge of the link characteristics, and this =
document would be a good place to say so. RFC 7278 is an implicit
>> case in which we are already taking advantage of those =
characteristics.
>>=20
>> It would be good to have a reference, for the bibliography. What is =
the reference identifier etc?
>>=20
>>> On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:25 AM Ron Bonica  =
wrote:
>>> Folks,
>>>=20
>>> This draft initiates a two week call for adoption on =
draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost. Please respond by August 9, 2018.
>>>=20
>>>                                                                     =
Ron
>>>=20
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> v6ops mailing list
>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20


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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 12:38:23 -0300 (ART)
From: Alejandro D'Egidio 
To: Ron Bonica 
Cc: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
Message-ID: <2101437735.16532202.1532965103201.JavaMail.zimbra@telecentro.net.ar>
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Thread-Topic: Weekly Review: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas
Thread-Index: AdQoBtUtXPFJi1UdSWq6rby/T4xfAkPMBJRL
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Weekly Review: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas
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Hello Ron,
I really like this draft!
Just a simple comment.
Where says:
This document covers a set of IP transition techniques required when
ISPs have an IPv6-only access network.

Maybe could say:
This document covers a set of IP transition techniques required when
ISPs wants to have an IPv6-only access network.

Maybe you can include some example of why ISPs wants to have an IPv6 only a=
ccess network.
For example, in my case, as we don't have more public IPv4 addresses and we=
 have IPv6 developed, why should I need to continue managing IPv4 addresses=
?
Maybe some kind of this scenario could be included.

Regarding 3.2.1.  464XLAT:
Cablelabs defines that the CableModem must subnet the IPv6 Prefix received =
from ISP to use different subnets on each LAN Interface. The size of IPv6 "=
sub" prefix on each LAN depends on is ISP configured the CM to use either f=
avor depth or favor width. If ISP provides just a /64 IPv6 prefix (which is=
 not recommended) CM must share it with all LAN interfaces.

For IPv4, by the same private IPv4 prefix is shared between all LAN interfa=
ces (customer-facing interfaces). For this case I think it "3.2.1.  464XLAT=
" is ok.
There are some cases where CM could have different private IPv4 prefixes to=
 each customer-facing interfaces. So I think, this is another scenario that=
 should be covered where CLAT will need to work with all the IPv4 LAN prefi=
xes. Maybe running multiple instances of its NAT46 (one for each LAN interf=
ace) or one instance supporting multiple IPv4 addresses.

All this is in: https://apps.cablelabs.com/specification/ipv4-and-ipv6-erou=
ter-specification/



Regards,
ALEJANDRO D'EGIDIO=20
Jefe de Ingenier=C3=ADa de Backbone | Direcci=C3=B3n de Ingenier=C3=ADa=20
M: [ callto:+54 911 5794-1589 | +54 911 5794-1589 ] | F: [ callto:+54 11 39=
77-1025 | +54 11 3977-1025 ] | [ mailto:adegidio@telecentro.net.ar | adegid=
io@telecentro.net.ar ]=20
Pje. Lavard=C3=A9n 157. Piso 3. CABA (C1437FBC)

----- Mensaje original -----
De: "Ron Bonica" 
Para: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
Enviados: Lunes, 30 de Julio 2018 10:12:50
Asunto: [v6ops] Weekly Review: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas

Folks,

Each week between now and IETF 103, we will review and discuss one draft wi=
th an eye towards progressing it.

This week, please review and comment on draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas=
.

                                                Fred and Ron

_______________________________________________
v6ops mailing list
v6ops@ietf.org
https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops


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From: "Templin (US), Fred L" 
To: Fred Baker 
CC: Lorenzo Colitti , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
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Hi Fred,

RFC7066 and RFC7278 have 3GPP spec citations, but I am not sure which one
or ones would be the right ones. Can we inherit the 3GPP specs by citing th=
e
RFCs, or do we need to go in and dig them out for inclusion in this documen=
t?

Thanks - Fred

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com]
> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 8:35 AM
> To: Templin (US), Fred L 
> Cc: Lorenzo Colitti ; v6ops@ietf.o=
rg WG 
> Subject: Re: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
>=20
>=20
>=20
> > On Jul 30, 2018, at 8:31 AM, Templin (US), Fred L  wrote:
> >
> > Hi Fred,
> >
> > I think the references for Lorenzo's comment would be RFC7066 and/or RF=
C7278.
> > Lorenzo - do I have that right?
>=20
> He was mentioning 3GPP specifications, if I understood him correctly.
>=20
> > Thanks - Fred
> >
> >> -----Original Message-----
> >> From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
> >> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 12:47 PM
> >> To: Lorenzo Colitti 
> >> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org WG 
> >> Subject: Re: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Jul 27, 2018, at 1:46 AM, Lorenzo Colitti  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I have read the draft and support adoption. The document is a general=
 discussion of how hosts can benefit from multiple
> addresses
> >> that is agnostic to the way the prefix is delivered, and it fits well =
with the spirit of RFC 7934.
> >>>
> >>> I note that Section 8 seems to specify host behaviour, which is typic=
ally not in scope for v6ops. To my mind that doesn't preclude
> >> adoption since it can be reworded in a way that doesn't specify host b=
ehaviour but only specifies the consequences of potential
> >> changes to host behaviour that specified by other working groups such =
as 6man.
> >>>
> >>> Section 10 should mention the de-facto prefix delegation mechanism us=
ed by all 3GPP networks, in which the fact that the prefix
> is
> >> delegated to the host is not explicit in the protocol signalling but u=
nambiguously defined by link-specific standards (i.e., 3GPP
> >> standards), which guarantees that the prefix uniquely belongs to the h=
ost. I think there would be a benefit if host behaviour could
> >> change based on such knowledge of the link characteristics, and this d=
ocument would be a good place to say so. RFC 7278 is an
> implicit
> >> case in which we are already taking advantage of those characteristics=
.
> >>
> >> It would be good to have a reference, for the bibliography. What is th=
e reference identifier etc?
> >>
> >>> On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:25 AM Ron Bonica  wrot=
e:
> >>> Folks,
> >>>
> >>> This draft initiates a two week call for adoption on draft-templin-v6=
ops-pdhost. Please respond by August 9, 2018.
> >>>
> >>>                                                                     R=
on
> >>>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> v6ops mailing list
> >>> v6ops@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> v6ops mailing list
> >>> v6ops@ietf.org
> >>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
> >


From nobody Mon Jul 30 08:52:41 2018
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From: Fred Baker 
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Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 08:52:30 -0700
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Cc: Lorenzo Colitti , "v6ops@ietf.org WG" 
To: Fred Templin 
References:   <2BC8E989-661C-4CA6-B3A8-134E4DCA0A32@gmail.com> <4984906d1502434fabb2e34414cd54c5@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com> <323436FF-5F1B-4FF9-8E37-0D319841C58B@gmail.com> <19848d3c47bc4432a23b2c550c6df25f@XCH15-06-08.nw.nos.boeing.com>
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
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It sounded to me like Lorenzo was looking for the actual 3GPP =
specifications. However, that's really a question for him, not me.

draft-ietf-v6ops-rfc3316bis-06.xml, which became RFC 7066, contains:

  
   
    General Packet Radio Service (GPRS); Service description; =
Stage 2
    
    3GPP
    
   
   
   
  

  
   
    Interworking between the Public Land Mobile Network (PLMN) =
supporting
           packet based services and Packet Data Networks (PDN)
    
    3GPP
    
   
   
   
  

  
   
    General Packet Radio Service (GPRS) enhancements for Evolved
           Universal Terrestrial Radio Access Network (E-UTRAN) access
    
    3GPP
    
   
   
   
  

  
   
    Architectural enhancements for non-3GPP accesses
    
    3GPP
    
   
   
   
  


> On Jul 30, 2018, at 8:43 AM, Templin (US), Fred L =
 wrote:
>=20
> Hi Fred,
>=20
> RFC7066 and RFC7278 have 3GPP spec citations, but I am not sure which =
one
> or ones would be the right ones. Can we inherit the 3GPP specs by =
citing the
> RFCs, or do we need to go in and dig them out for inclusion in this =
document?
>=20
> Thanks - Fred
>=20
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Fred Baker [mailto:fredbaker.ietf@gmail.com]
>> Sent: Monday, July 30, 2018 8:35 AM
>> To: Templin (US), Fred L 
>> Cc: Lorenzo Colitti ; =
v6ops@ietf.org WG 
>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
>>=20
>>=20
>>=20
>>> On Jul 30, 2018, at 8:31 AM, Templin (US), Fred L =
 wrote:
>>>=20
>>> Hi Fred,
>>>=20
>>> I think the references for Lorenzo's comment would be RFC7066 and/or =
RFC7278.
>>> Lorenzo - do I have that right?
>>=20
>> He was mentioning 3GPP specifications, if I understood him correctly.
>>=20
>>> Thanks - Fred
>>>=20
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: v6ops [mailto:v6ops-bounces@ietf.org] On Behalf Of Fred Baker
>>>> Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 12:47 PM
>>>> To: Lorenzo Colitti 
>>>> Cc: v6ops@ietf.org WG 
>>>> Subject: Re: [v6ops] Call for Adoption: draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Jul 27, 2018, at 1:46 AM, Lorenzo Colitti =
 wrote:
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I have read the draft and support adoption. The document is a =
general discussion of how hosts can benefit from multiple
>> addresses
>>>> that is agnostic to the way the prefix is delivered, and it fits =
well with the spirit of RFC 7934.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> I note that Section 8 seems to specify host behaviour, which is =
typically not in scope for v6ops. To my mind that doesn't preclude
>>>> adoption since it can be reworded in a way that doesn't specify =
host behaviour but only specifies the consequences of potential
>>>> changes to host behaviour that specified by other working groups =
such as 6man.
>>>>>=20
>>>>> Section 10 should mention the de-facto prefix delegation mechanism =
used by all 3GPP networks, in which the fact that the prefix
>> is
>>>> delegated to the host is not explicit in the protocol signalling =
but unambiguously defined by link-specific standards (i.e., 3GPP
>>>> standards), which guarantees that the prefix uniquely belongs to =
the host. I think there would be a benefit if host behaviour could
>>>> change based on such knowledge of the link characteristics, and =
this document would be a good place to say so. RFC 7278 is an
>> implicit
>>>> case in which we are already taking advantage of those =
characteristics.
>>>>=20
>>>> It would be good to have a reference, for the bibliography. What is =
the reference identifier etc?
>>>>=20
>>>>> On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 2:25 AM Ron Bonica  =
wrote:
>>>>> Folks,
>>>>>=20
>>>>> This draft initiates a two week call for adoption on =
draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost. Please respond by August 9, 2018.
>>>>>=20
>>>>>                                                                    =
Ron
>>>>>=20
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> v6ops mailing list
>>>>> v6ops@ietf.org
>>>>> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>>>=20
>=20


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I support the adoption of this draft.

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 12:25 PM, Ron Bonica  wrote:

> Folks,
>
> This draft initiates a two week call for adoption on
> draft-templin-v6ops-pdhost. Please respond by August 9, 2018.
>
>                                                                      Ron
>
> _______________________________________________
> v6ops mailing list
> v6ops@ietf.org
> https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>



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I support the adoption of this draft.

On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 12:25 PM=
, Ron Bonica <rbonica@juniper.net> wrote:
Folks,



This draft initiates a two week call for adoption on draft-templin-v6ops-pd=
host. Please respond by August 9, 2018.



=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=
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=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0Ron



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From: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
To: Alejandro D'Egidio , Ron Bonica 
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Hi Alejandro,



Thanks for the input!



I think it is easy to understand:

"This document covers a set of IP transition techniques required when

   ISPs have an IPv6-only access network."



even if the ISP already have an IPv6-only access network, or want to have i=
t.



But this may be something that a native English speaker could tell us how b=
etter to say it. May be:

"This document covers a set of IP transition techniques required when

   ISPs have or want to move to an IPv6-only access network."



I'd some text in earlier versions about the reasons to have an IPv6-only ac=
cess network, but it was suggested to move it to the Annex A ... not sure i=
f you read them also. I'm happy to add some more text, if needed to the ann=
ex A to describe several possible reasons.



The case for having multiple IPv4 subnets (one for each interface), is feas=
ible, as you say, by having multiple instances of the NAT46, which I think =
is not a problem.



However, open question is valid also for any other IPv4aaS mechanism.



I'm not sure if we want to have that case considered as something that MUST=
 be supported as one more requirement, and if this is the case, it will be =
a "general" transition requirement, and no need to go in the details for ea=
ch transition mechanism, or we really want to go to describe a specific new=
 requirement for this for each transition mechanism ...



What others think?



Regards,

Jordi

=20

=20



=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----

De: v6ops  en nombre de Alejandro D'Egidio 

Fecha: lunes, 30 de julio de 2018, 10:39

Para: Ron Bonica 

CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 

Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Weekly Review: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas



    Hello Ron,

    I really like this draft!

    Just a simple comment.

    Where says:

    This document covers a set of IP transition techniques required when

    ISPs have an IPv6-only access network.

   =20

    Maybe could say:

    This document covers a set of IP transition techniques required when

    ISPs wants to have an IPv6-only access network.

   =20

    Maybe you can include some example of why ISPs wants to have an IPv6 on=
ly access network.

    For example, in my case, as we don't have more public IPv4 addresses an=
d we have IPv6 developed, why should I need to continue managing IPv4 addre=
sses?

    Maybe some kind of this scenario could be included.

   =20

    Regarding 3.2.1.  464XLAT:

    Cablelabs defines that the CableModem must subnet the IPv6 Prefix recei=
ved from ISP to use different subnets on each LAN Interface. The size of IP=
v6 "sub" prefix on each LAN depends on is ISP configured the CM to use eith=
er favor depth or favor width. If ISP provides just a /64 IPv6 prefix (whic=
h is not recommended) CM must share it with all LAN interfaces.

   =20

    For IPv4, by the same private IPv4 prefix is shared between all LAN int=
erfaces (customer-facing interfaces). For this case I think it "3.2.1.  464=
XLAT" is ok.

    There are some cases where CM could have different private IPv4 prefixe=
s to each customer-facing interfaces. So I think, this is another scenario =
that should be covered where CLAT will need to work with all the IPv4 LAN p=
refixes. Maybe running multiple instances of its NAT46 (one for each LAN in=
terface) or one instance supporting multiple IPv4 addresses.

   =20

    All this is in: https://apps.cablelabs.com/specification/ipv4-and-ipv6-=
erouter-specification/

   =20

   =20

   =20

    Regards,

    ALEJANDRO D'EGIDIO=20

    Jefe de Ingenier=C3=ADa de Backbone | Direcci=C3=B3n de Ingenier=C3=ADa=
=20

    M: [ callto:+54 911 5794-1589 | +54 911 5794-1589 ] | F: [ callto:+54 1=
1 3977-1025 | +54 11 3977-1025 ] | [ mailto:adegidio@telecentro.net.ar | ad=
egidio@telecentro.net.ar ]=20

    Pje. Lavard=C3=A9n 157. Piso 3. CABA (C1437FBC)

   =20

    ----- Mensaje original -----

    De: "Ron Bonica" 

    Para: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 

    Enviados: Lunes, 30 de Julio 2018 10:12:50

    Asunto: [v6ops] Weekly Review: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas

   =20

    Folks,

   =20

    Each week between now and IETF 103, we will review and discuss one draf=
t with an eye towards progressing it.

   =20

    This week, please review and comment on draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv=
4aas.

   =20

                                                    Fred and Ron

   =20

    _______________________________________________

    v6ops mailing list

    v6ops@ietf.org

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

   =20

    _______________________________________________

    v6ops mailing list

    v6ops@ietf.org

    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops

   =20




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From: Richard Patterson 
Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 16:36:23 +0100
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Subject: [v6ops] draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health-04 Post-IETF102 Discussion
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Following on from the Q&As and hallway chats at IETF102, I've captured
a few questions for further discussion on the lists.
For those yet to review the draft, it can be found here:
https://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health-04

- BFD Echo: Still requires a full BFD implementation.  Do we continue
to specify BFD Echo specifically, as per TR-146, or do we rather
specify a new "loopback" packet format to perform the same function,
without full BFD.

- Complexity:  Do we need to define all 4 Behaviours?  Would it help
with adoption if we remove the Renew and Rebind behaviours, and focus
on the latter 2 behaviours that are more likely to facilitate session
re-establishment?   (Perhaps combine behaviours 0,1,2 in to a
converged method?  i.e., attempt a single renew, and rebind before
moving to solicit/discover)

- Complexity2: Do we need to define 3 different health check methods?
BFD Echo-style, ARP/ND, and Passive.    I think that BFD Echo-style
and active ARP/ND checks are both worthwhile specify, but dropping
passive checks for simplicity is probably a good idea.

- Engage Vendors: Current behaviour of silently discarding of Renew
messages is seen as a violation of RFC2131.  I agree that vendors
could implement authentication on Renews, with additional complexity
of validating current and pass lease-state.  It doesn't entirely
mitigate the problem, but would expedite client recovery somewhat.

- Engage Broadband Forum:  Discuss the problem and current limitations
with their recommendations in TR-146, perhaps help drive a Broadband
Forum equivalent of a -bis.
I think engaging BBF is a good thing to happen anyway, but there are
additional features of this draft, such as configurability and
signalling of parameters via the DHCP option, and alternative
behaviours.
Do people think that these additional features warrant progressing
this draft or something similar within the IETF, or should focus be
shifted to working with the BBF on simply amending their TR-146?

-Richard


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From: "STARK, BARBARA H" 
To: "'Richard Patterson'" , "int-area@ietf.org" , "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
Thread-Topic: [v6ops] draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health-04 Post-IETF102 Discussion
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Subject: Re: [v6ops] draft-patterson-intarea-ipoe-health-04 Post-IETF102 Discussion
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I went to my internal experts and had a chat with them about this draft. He=
re is some feedback on the draft.

Everyone I talked to agrees that keeping the IPoE "connection" up on access=
 loops is important. [This relates to my saying at the v6ops session that R=
ichard was right about this being a problem that he needs to solve in his n=
etwork.]

However...
The consensus view here is that BFD Echo, when implemented as described in =
RFC 5881 and BBF specs, works. I don't have anyone asking for something mor=
e complex than what has already been specified in BBF TR-146 (and TR-124 fo=
r CPE, with management by TR-069 and the TR-181 data model parameters). The=
re is no requirement here for manual configuration, DHCP configuration, or =
alternate DHCP mechanisms (Renew, Reconfigure, Rebind).

Getting vendors (CPE and BNG) to implement BFD Echo as currently specified =
is painful. Defining something more complex (BFD Echo plus DHCP options plu=
s other configuration parameters and various methods of configuring) is unl=
ikely to be easier to get implemented. Defining something that doesn't work=
 as well as BFD Echo is undesirable.

It was the BNG vendors who said they preferred the current BFD Echo solutio=
n. Getting CE router vendors to implement is indeed very difficult. Convinc=
ing vendors to implement is definitely the most difficult aspect of BFD Ech=
o.

A comment about CE routers: Although our CE routers do BFD Echo, we have (i=
n our labs) experimented with implementing a CE router on a Linux kernel an=
d discovered the kernel would not accept packets with a source address belo=
nging to itself. [The BFD echo is an IP packet with the destination and sou=
rce IPv4 addresses being identical and belonging to the CE router, because =
of BCP 38.] This is just a comment for anyone wanting to experiment. Our CE=
 routers do support BFD Echo.

Here is a quote related to DHCP Renew and Reconfigure: "The Renew and Recon=
figure approaches are useless as we found when we looked at that.  It doesn=
't help with an unplanned migration where the subscriber access is moved (e=
.g., card or node failure requiring rehoming a DSLAM to a BNG different por=
t or node).  In those cases you can't send a Renew or Reconfigure since the=
 IP context for the subscriber is lost."

To summarize:
I / we don't support Renew / Reconfigure or Rebind as options for what to d=
o when BFD Echo indicates failure of connectivity. No need for DHCP Option =
to configure behavior for when BFD Echo fails. I / we do support BFD Echo. =
I / we are neutral on the creation of DHCP options to configure BFD Echo (T=
R-069/TR-181 configuration is ok for us).

More comments in-line, below.

Barbara

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Richard Patterson
>=20
> Following on from the Q&As and hallway chats at IETF102, I've captured a =
few
> questions for further discussion on the lists.
>=20
> - BFD Echo: Still requires a full BFD implementation.  Do we continue to
> specify BFD Echo specifically, as per TR-146, or do we rather specify a n=
ew
> "loopback" packet format to perform the same function, without full BFD.

BFD Echo works, and has been successfully implemented by many vendors. I / =
we see no need to define a new mechanism.

> - Complexity:  Do we need to define all 4 Behaviours?  Would it help with
> adoption if we remove the Renew and Rebind behaviours, and focus on the
> latter 2 behaviours that are more likely to facilitate session
> re-establishment?   (Perhaps combine behaviours 0,1,2 in to a
> converged method?  i.e., attempt a single renew, and rebind before moving
> to solicit/discover)

No, this complexity is not needed. Renew/Reconfigure is not useful. Rebind =
is also not needed. CE router does not need to be triggered -- failure of B=
FD Echo is sufficient trigger getting DHCPv4 and RS/RA/DHCPv6 processes sta=
rted.=20
=20
> - Complexity2: Do we need to define 3 different health check methods?
> BFD Echo-style, ARP/ND, and Passive.    I think that BFD Echo-style
> and active ARP/ND checks are both worthwhile specify, but dropping passiv=
e
> checks for simplicity is probably a good idea.

No, we don't need complexity. Only one mechanism is needed. BFD Echo works.
=20
> - Engage Vendors: Current behaviour of silently discarding of Renew
> messages is seen as a violation of RFC2131.  I agree that vendors could
> implement authentication on Renews, with additional complexity of
> validating current and pass lease-state.  It doesn't entirely mitigate th=
e
> problem, but would expedite client recovery somewhat.

I / we don't support additional IPv4 DHCPv4 mandates on CE routers.
=20
> - Engage Broadband Forum:  Discuss the problem and current limitations wi=
th
> their recommendations in TR-146, perhaps help drive a Broadband Forum
> equivalent of a -bis.

The best way to engage BBF is direct communication. IETF WGs and liaisons h=
ave very little influence in getting BBF to do work. Individuals (especiall=
y individuals willing to step up and be an editor or find someone to be an =
editor) are significantly more influential. If you want to try to get somet=
hing done, I suggest you directly talk to Dave Allen and David Sinicrope (b=
oth of Ericsson, where Dave Allen chairs the BBF group who does BNG require=
ments and David Sinicrope is the BBF-IETF liaison officer). I am engaged in=
 BBF CE router ("residential gateway", TR-124) specs, but am not willing to=
 be a champion for this. What you really need to be successful with BBF is =
more ISPs (at BBF) to support you and/or your CE router and BNG vendors. I =
don't recommend trying to get v6ops or int-area to try to drive BBF for you=
.=20

> I think engaging BBF is a good thing to happen anyway, but there are
> additional features of this draft, such as configurability and signalling=
 of
> parameters via the DHCP option, and alternative behaviours.
> Do people think that these additional features warrant progressing this d=
raft
> or something similar within the IETF, or should focus be shifted to worki=
ng
> with the BBF on simply amending their TR-146?

I think the understanding of this problem at IETF is in short supply. The B=
NG and non-DOCSIS ISP CE router vendor experts and non-DOCSIS ISP access ne=
twork experts are at BBF. I don't support progressing this draft in IETF.

As a final note -- for any solution to be meaningful (wherever the work is =
done), the vendor representatives who can commit to implementing must be en=
gaged.=20


From nobody Tue Jul 31 13:55:19 2018
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Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 17:55:11 -0300 (ART)
From: Alejandro D'Egidio 
To: JORDI PALET MARTINEZ 
Cc: Ron Bonica , "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
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Thread-Topic: Weekly Review: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas
Thread-Index: Q7DIR7HusLN1OQmFxzQm9iGitPCWVg==
Archived-At: 
Subject: Re: [v6ops] Weekly Review: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas
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Hello Jordi,
  My notes in lines.

Regards,
Alejandro

----- Mensaje original -----
> De: "JORDI PALET MARTINEZ" 
> Para: "Alejandro Degidio" , "Ron Bonica" 
> CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
> Enviados: Lunes, 30 de Julio 2018 20:58:52
> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Weekly Review: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas

> Hi Alejandro,
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Thanks for the input!
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I think it is easy to understand:
>=20
> "This document covers a set of IP transition techniques required when
>=20
>   ISPs have an IPv6-only access network."
>=20
>=20
>=20
> even if the ISP already have an IPv6-only access network, or want to have=
 it.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> But this may be something that a native English speaker could tell us how=
 better
> to say it. May be:
>=20
> "This document covers a set of IP transition techniques required when
>=20
>   ISPs have or want to move to an IPv6-only access network."
>=20
>=20
Yes, it's great.

>=20
> I'd some text in earlier versions about the reasons to have an IPv6-only =
access
> network, but it was suggested to move it to the Annex A ... not sure if y=
ou
> read them also. I'm happy to add some more text, if needed to the annex A=
 to
> describe several possible reasons.
>=20

Yes, I've read all the document included the Annexes.


>=20
>=20
> The case for having multiple IPv4 subnets (one for each interface), is fe=
asible,
> as you say, by having multiple instances of the NAT46, which I think is n=
ot a
> problem.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> However, open question is valid also for any other IPv4aaS mechanism.
>=20
>=20
>=20
> I'm not sure if we want to have that case considered as something that MU=
ST be
> supported as one more requirement, and if this is the case, it will be a
> "general" transition requirement, and no need to go in the details for ea=
ch
> transition mechanism, or we really want to go to describe a specific new
> requirement for this for each transition mechanism ...
>=20

Just knowing that a CPE can have different LAN IPv4 prefixes I was thinking=
 that maybe it could be considered in General transition requirements with =
something like:

"TRANS-6: The IPv6 Transition CE Router MAY have different IPv4 prefixes on=
 each Customer-Facing interfaces and the transition mechanisms MUST have op=
tions to be compatible with it."


>=20
>=20
> What others think?
>=20
>=20
>=20
> Regards,
>=20
> Jordi
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=EF=BB=BF-----Mensaje original-----
>=20
> De: v6ops  en nombre de Alejandro D'Egidio
> 
>=20
> Fecha: lunes, 30 de julio de 2018, 10:39
>=20
> Para: Ron Bonica 
>=20
> CC: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
>=20
> Asunto: Re: [v6ops] Weekly Review: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas
>=20
>=20
>=20
>    Hello Ron,
>=20
>    I really like this draft!
>=20
>    Just a simple comment.
>=20
>    Where says:
>=20
>    This document covers a set of IP transition techniques required when
>=20
>    ISPs have an IPv6-only access network.
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>    Maybe could say:
>=20
>    This document covers a set of IP transition techniques required when
>=20
>    ISPs wants to have an IPv6-only access network.
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>    Maybe you can include some example of why ISPs wants to have an IPv6 o=
nly access
>    network.
>=20
>    For example, in my case, as we don't have more public IPv4 addresses a=
nd we have
>    IPv6 developed, why should I need to continue managing IPv4 addresses?
>=20
>    Maybe some kind of this scenario could be included.
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>    Regarding 3.2.1.  464XLAT:
>=20
>    Cablelabs defines that the CableModem must subnet the IPv6 Prefix rece=
ived from
>    ISP to use different subnets on each LAN Interface. The size of IPv6 "=
sub"
>    prefix on each LAN depends on is ISP configured the CM to use either f=
avor
>    depth or favor width. If ISP provides just a /64 IPv6 prefix (which is=
 not
>    recommended) CM must share it with all LAN interfaces.
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>    For IPv4, by the same private IPv4 prefix is shared between all LAN in=
terfaces
>    (customer-facing interfaces). For this case I think it "3.2.1.  464XLA=
T" is ok.
>=20
>    There are some cases where CM could have different private IPv4 prefix=
es to each
>    customer-facing interfaces. So I think, this is another scenario that =
should be
>    covered where CLAT will need to work with all the IPv4 LAN prefixes. M=
aybe
>    running multiple instances of its NAT46 (one for each LAN interface) o=
r one
>    instance supporting multiple IPv4 addresses.
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>    All this is in:
>    https://apps.cablelabs.com/specification/ipv4-and-ipv6-erouter-specifi=
cation/
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>    Regards,
>=20
>    ALEJANDRO D'EGIDIO
>=20
>    Jefe de Ingenier=C3=ADa de Backbone | Direcci=C3=B3n de Ingenier=C3=AD=
a
>=20
>    M: [ callto:+54 911 5794-1589 | +54 911 5794-1589 ] | F: [ callto:+54 =
11
>    3977-1025 | +54 11 3977-1025 ] | [ mailto:adegidio@telecentro.net.ar |
>    adegidio@telecentro.net.ar ]
>=20
>    Pje. Lavard=C3=A9n 157. Piso 3. CABA (C1437FBC)
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>    ----- Mensaje original -----
>=20
>    De: "Ron Bonica" 
>=20
>    Para: "v6ops@ietf.org list" 
>=20
>    Enviados: Lunes, 30 de Julio 2018 10:12:50
>=20
>    Asunto: [v6ops] Weekly Review: draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ipv4aas
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>    Folks,
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>    Each week between now and IETF 103, we will review and discuss one dra=
ft with an
>    eye towards progressing it.
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>    This week, please review and comment on draft-ietf-v6ops-transition-ip=
v4aas.
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>                                                    Fred and Ron
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>    _______________________________________________
>=20
>    v6ops mailing list
>=20
>    v6ops@ietf.org
>=20
>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>    _______________________________________________
>=20
>    v6ops mailing list
>=20
>    v6ops@ietf.org
>=20
>    https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/v6ops
>=20
>   =20
>=20
>=20
>=20
>=20
> **********************************************
> IPv4 is over
> Are you ready for the new Internet ?
> http://www.consulintel.es
> The IPv6 Company
>=20
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